skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
Obelisk taken in the Living Tomb can never have a 3++. It only gets that when it starts on the table and in powered down mode, but Living Tomb requires it to start in DS reserve.
The thing is, though, you're not looking to take down bigger targets in Assault. If Praets get into assault with anything you mathed out, they're going to die on average. I2 with no Invuln save against a Flyrant, WK, or Walker (especially Knights)? No way bud. Unless you get super lucky, those guys are toast. When you're talking about dealing in a competitive environment, MSU is generally 3+ in small units, which Rods have a better throughput against, in both Range and Assault.
Though I could concede that one of each is better overall. If you go up against summoning, Voidblades take out Daemons much easier due to 5++ not caring about AP value and number of attacks being better, and just having the flexibility. If I had to pick one, I would go Rods 100% of the time, but due to there not being a huge difference and the Battalion making you take two, I agree that having both to flex pick is useful.
1. I was just talking durability and the fact that it has an ability that doesn't make much sense against FMC's. It was me rambling. However, nothing stops the Obelisk from entering that mode after it enters the field.
2. You overstate the danger of two of those units. Flyrants have FOUR attacks and are honestly pansies in melee. Only 2 of those are going to hit and possibly wound one, and you will RP one of them, leaving the other four (and a good chance to actually keep five, seeing that the math says .9 will die) to still attack. An Imperial Knight will only hit with 1.5 attacks, though granted those are gonna kill if they hit. Otherwise, Praetorians can do an okay job of stripping HP and tarpitting.
Wraithknights are good against anything they get into melee with though so whatever.
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
Obelisk taken in the Living Tomb can never have a 3++. It only gets that when it starts on the table and in powered down mode, but Living Tomb requires it to start in DS reserve.
The thing is, though, you're not looking to take down bigger targets in Assault. If Praets get into assault with anything you mathed out, they're going to die on average. I2 with no Invuln save against a Flyrant, WK, or Walker (especially Knights)? No way bud. Unless you get super lucky, those guys are toast. When you're talking about dealing in a competitive environment, MSU is generally 3+ in small units, which Rods have a better throughput against, in both Range and Assault.
Though I could concede that one of each is better overall. If you go up against summoning, Voidblades take out Daemons much easier due to 5++ not caring about AP value and number of attacks being better, and just having the flexibility. If I had to pick one, I would go Rods 100% of the time, but due to there not being a huge difference and the Battalion making you take two, I agree that having both to flex pick is useful.
1. I was just talking durability and the fact that it has an ability that doesn't make much sense against FMC's. It was me rambling. However, nothing stops the Obelisk from entering that mode after it enters the field.
Nothing except the codex, which says "An Obelisk that arrives by Deep Strike is automatically powered up. Once powered up, an Obelisk cannot power down later in the game".
2. You overstate the danger of two of those units. Flyrants have FOUR attacks and are honestly pansies in melee. Only 2 of those are going to hit and possibly wound one, and you will RP one of them, leaving the other four (and a good chance to actually keep five, seeing that the math says .9 will die) to still attack. An Imperial Knight will only hit with 1.5 attacks, though granted those are gonna kill if they hit. Otherwise, Praetorians can do an okay job of stripping HP and tarpitting.
Wraithknights are good against anything they get into melee with though so whatever.
Didn't realize that Flyrants were that lousy in assault, I'm used to FMCs being more beastly. Imp Knights have AP2 D attacks and Stomp. Unless you're running max units of Praets, that's going to kill them sooner rather than later. 4 Praets will take off 1 HP per turn (maybe 2 on the charge), but the Knight kills 1 per turn and a 6 on the Stomp says goodbye.
Not saying Praets are bad assault units, but they're kind of odd in that regard. They'll flay alive anything that's not a Deathstar or LoW no matter which weapon they're using, but they have a breaking point where that'll just stop happening and the most they can hope for is to tarpit. Which they can do decently, 3+/RP/Fearless makes them hard to kill by non-D or non-6 Stomps, but they won't be winning fights against those big targets any time soon.
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
Obelisk taken in the Living Tomb can never have a 3++. It only gets that when it starts on the table and in powered down mode, but Living Tomb requires it to start in DS reserve.
The thing is, though, you're not looking to take down bigger targets in Assault. If Praets get into assault with anything you mathed out, they're going to die on average. I2 with no Invuln save against a Flyrant, WK, or Walker (especially Knights)? No way bud. Unless you get super lucky, those guys are toast. When you're talking about dealing in a competitive environment, MSU is generally 3+ in small units, which Rods have a better throughput against, in both Range and Assault.
Though I could concede that one of each is better overall. If you go up against summoning, Voidblades take out Daemons much easier due to 5++ not caring about AP value and number of attacks being better, and just having the flexibility. If I had to pick one, I would go Rods 100% of the time, but due to there not being a huge difference and the Battalion making you take two, I agree that having both to flex pick is useful.
1. I was just talking durability and the fact that it has an ability that doesn't make much sense against FMC's. It was me rambling. However, nothing stops the Obelisk from entering that mode after it enters the field.
Nothing except the codex, which says "An Obelisk that arrives by Deep Strike is automatically powered up. Once powered up, an Obelisk cannot power down later in the game".
2. You overstate the danger of two of those units. Flyrants have FOUR attacks and are honestly pansies in melee. Only 2 of those are going to hit and possibly wound one, and you will RP one of them, leaving the other four (and a good chance to actually keep five, seeing that the math says .9 will die) to still attack. An Imperial Knight will only hit with 1.5 attacks, though granted those are gonna kill if they hit. Otherwise, Praetorians can do an okay job of stripping HP and tarpitting.
Wraithknights are good against anything they get into melee with though so whatever.
Didn't realize that Flyrants were that lousy in assault, I'm used to FMCs being more beastly. Imp Knights have AP2 D attacks and Stomp. Unless you're running max units of Praets, that's going to kill them sooner rather than later. 4 Praets will take off 1 HP per turn (maybe 2 on the charge), but the Knight kills 1 per turn and a 6 on the Stomp says goodbye.
Not saying Praets are bad assault units, but they're kind of odd in that regard. They'll flay alive anything that's not a Deathstar or LoW no matter which weapon they're using, but they have a breaking point where that'll just stop happening and the most they can hope for is to tarpit. Which they can do decently, 3+/RP/Fearless makes them hard to kill by non-D or non-6 Stomps, but they won't be winning fights against those big targets any time soon.
1. My bad, I suppose I missed that part. I'll concede on that.
2. There's a reason people run two Devourers. Flyrants are garbage in assault and do better throwing out about 10 S6 shots a turn. I already talked about Knights and I don't really think they're that dangerous for Necrons. Stomp is a 1/6 chance of actually removing everyone. I'll take that chance for tarpitting for two turns at 140 points!
skoffs wrote: The other ones I know, but... what's AEQ?
I would imagine Aspect Equivalent, since some aspects (Banshees, Dire Avengers, Hawks) are on a 4+. I've always seen WEQ for Warrior Equivalent, since Necron Warriors and Tau Fire Warriors are 4+.
Yeah, WEQ seems like a better fit. Warriors are a bit more obvious at first glance, as far as understanding what kind of save we're talking about.
The thing about FLG's tournaments is that there's always an insane amount of line of sight blockers. So hiding the Spyder and guaranteeing Reanimation Protocols is basically a given.
So yeah, it's a Wraithstar nee Orikanstar, with Solar Staff and two 2+ characters for tanking AP3 or worse wounds. Null deploy with DS was a big part of the game at LVO, so I imagine that's what the Destroyers were doing.
It's a legit list. While the characters end up slowing down the Wraiths, it's still more mobile than Lychstar since the core of it is fast.
Huh, that's not a bad idea.
With S6 Rending they'll def be better against a wider variety of targets than S5 AP3 swords.
Wonder how the damage output/survivability to points ratio works out versus Shield-Guard?
skoffs wrote: Huh, that's not a bad idea.
With S6 Rending they'll def be better against a wider variety of targets than S5 AP3 swords.
Wonder how the damage output/survivability to points ratio works out versus Shield-Guard?
But yeah, how'd that list deal with vehicles?
Umm, how do you think? Gauss from Destroyers that rerolls. And Wraiths can hurt anything.
Hmm, typically relying on Guass to deal with AV isn't the best tactic, but maybe... with 2 S5 shots that reroll 1s to hit and auto glance on a 6 that can reroll pens, how many Destroyers would it statistically take to strip 3 HPs?
(and if the Wraith Star is stuck on anti vehicle duty, I have a feeling something has not gone to plan)
Pretty sure a squad of 5 Destroyers strips 3 HP (it has been months since I did that math). That means that your Heavy Destroyers can take on the more dangerous targets.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, typically relying on Guass to deal with AV isn't the best tactic, but maybe... with 2 S5 shots that reroll 1s to hit and auto glance on a 6 that can reroll pens, how many Destroyers would it statistically take to strip 3 HPs?
(and if the Wraith Star is stuck on anti vehicle duty, I have a feeling something has not gone to plan)
A unit of 4 Destroyers in a Destroyer Cult (such as the ones in his list) would strip 1.90 HPs in a single round of shooting assuming the AV is 11+ and there's no cover/jink save involved.
A unit of 3 Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer would strip 2.16 HPs BEFORE rolling for penetrating against AV 11. This number gets slightly worse with higher AVs but there's still a potential for rolling a Destroyed result on the penetrating table while 4 Destroyers has NO chance of rolling Destroyed result.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, typically relying on Guass to deal with AV isn't the best tactic, but maybe... with 2 S5 shots that reroll 1s to hit and auto glance on a 6 that can reroll pens, how many Destroyers would it statistically take to strip 3 HPs?
(and if the Wraith Star is stuck on anti vehicle duty, I have a feeling something has not gone to plan)
A unit of 4 Destroyers in a Destroyer Cult (such as the ones in his list) would strip 1.90 HPs in a single round of shooting assuming the AV is 11+ and there's no cover/jink save involved.
A unit of 3 Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer would strip 2.16 HPs BEFORE rolling for penetrating against AV 11. This number gets slightly worse with higher AVs but there's still a potential for rolling a Destroyed result on the penetrating table while 4 Destroyers has NO chance of rolling Destroyed result.
You might want to re-check your math.
My math for 4 Destroyers against AV 11+
8 shots
BS 4 PE = 0.777 chance to hit
6s to glance with reroll = .3333 chance to glance (oops .305)
8 * 0.7777 * .3333 = 2.07 HP
correction: 8 * 0.777 * 0.305 = 1.9. You are correct.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, typically relying on Guass to deal with AV isn't the best tactic, but maybe... with 2 S5 shots that reroll 1s to hit and auto glance on a 6 that can reroll pens, how many Destroyers would it statistically take to strip 3 HPs?
(and if the Wraith Star is stuck on anti vehicle duty, I have a feeling something has not gone to plan)
A unit of 4 Destroyers in a Destroyer Cult (such as the ones in his list) would strip 1.90 HPs in a single round of shooting assuming the AV is 11+ and there's no cover/jink save involved.
A unit of 3 Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer would strip 2.16 HPs BEFORE rolling for penetrating against AV 11. This number gets slightly worse with higher AVs but there's still a potential for rolling a Destroyed result on the penetrating table while 4 Destroyers has NO chance of rolling Destroyed result.
You might want to re-check your math.
My math for 4 Destroyers against AV 11+
8 shots
BS 4 PE = 0.777 chance to hit
6s to glance with reroll = .3333 chance to glance (oops .305)
8 * 0.7777 * .3333 = 2.07 HP
correction: 8 * 0.777 * 0.305 = 1.9. You are correct.
BTW, if you want to do the math yourself, here's the formula.
number of shots = N
Chance of hitting = H (so if BS is 4, insert 2/3 for H)
Chance of penetrating = P (Str 5 gauss vs AV 11 is 1/6) (And by penetrating I mean just Glancing or better. The odds of Penetrating would be different)
Chance of reroll to hit= RH (So for preferred enemy, this is always 1/6. For twin-linked, this is the inverse of Chance of Hitting. So 1/3 if twin-linked with BS 4.)
chance of reroll to pen= RP (5/6 in a destroyer cult. 1/6 if not due to preferred enemy)
Formula: N * (H + (RH*H))) * (P + (RP*P)))
If you want to add Jink or Cover to the equation you just multiple by the chance of Cover (so 1/2 for a 4+ save).
This formula can be applied to anything where a to-hit roll and to-wound/penetrate roll is involved and there might be a reroll.
So for the example above, 4 destroyers.
N = 8
H = 2/3
P = 1/6
RH = 1/6
RP = 5/6
insert into formula:
8 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((5/6)*(1/6)))
copy paste that to a calc and you get 1.901234...
Automatically Appended Next Post: But anyway, the point of the exercise is that the 10points required to upgrade a Destroyer to a Heavy Destroyer is a small price to pay for at least the chance of getting a Destroyed result AND to average more HPs anyway.
However, it looks like he was using his Destroyers more as an MEQ killer, which means just taking Destroyers will be better than paying for the Heavy.
Okay, so regular Cult Destroyers are somewhat decent at hurting vehicles.
Does that make them one of the better swiss army knives in the codex? (able to threaten a bigger range of targets than most other things available to us)
Though if he was primarily using them for MEQ murdering, and assuming he wasn't wasting the deathstar on it, what in that list was going after vehicles? The minimum Scarabs and Spyder? The Troops? Or was the meta just so vehicle lite that the list doesn't really need anything particularly anti-vehicle?
skoffs wrote: Okay, so regular Cult Destroyers are somewhat decent at hurting vehicles.
Does that make them one of the better swiss army knives in the codex? (able to threaten a bigger range of targets than most other things available to us)
Though if he was primarily using them for MEQ murdering, and assuming he wasn't wasting the deathstar on it, what in that list was going after vehicles? The minimum Scarabs and Spyder? The Troops? Or was the meta just so vehicle lite that the list doesn't really need anything particularly anti-vehicle?
It's probably that last part. That's why the guy with the Monolith and Obelisk probably did so well.
Requizen wrote: The thing about FLG's tournaments is that there's always an insane amount of line of sight blockers. So hiding the Spyder and guaranteeing Reanimation Protocols is basically a given.
So yeah, it's a Wraithstar nee Orikanstar, with Solar Staff and two 2+ characters for tanking AP3 or worse wounds. Null deploy with DS was a big part of the game at LVO, so I imagine that's what the Destroyers were doing.
It's a legit list. While the characters end up slowing down the Wraiths, it's still more mobile than Lychstar since the core of it is fast.
I think it's important to recognize that the Wraiths can perform different duties per match-up and per phase in game.
Instead of always being slow like Lychguard, the Wraiths can split off and use their speed to score the points that win the game.
Requizen wrote: The thing about FLG's tournaments is that there's always an insane amount of line of sight blockers. So hiding the Spyder and guaranteeing Reanimation Protocols is basically a given.
So yeah, it's a Wraithstar nee Orikanstar, with Solar Staff and two 2+ characters for tanking AP3 or worse wounds. Null deploy with DS was a big part of the game at LVO, so I imagine that's what the Destroyers were doing.
It's a legit list. While the characters end up slowing down the Wraiths, it's still more mobile than Lychstar since the core of it is fast.
I think it's important to recognize that the Wraiths can perform different duties per match-up and per phase in game.
Instead of always being slow like Lychguard, the Wraiths can split off and use their speed to score the points that win the game.
True, also, once other threats are taken care of, 2+/4++ characters are more than capable of staying alive by themselves once the Wraiths split off.
skoffs wrote: Okay, so regular Cult Destroyers are somewhat decent at hurting vehicles.
Does that make them one of the better swiss army knives in the codex? (able to threaten a bigger range of targets than most other things available to us)
Though if he was primarily using them for MEQ murdering, and assuming he wasn't wasting the deathstar on it, what in that list was going after vehicles? The minimum Scarabs and Spyder? The Troops? Or was the meta just so vehicle lite that the list doesn't really need anything particularly anti-vehicle?
It's probably that last part. That's why the guy with the Monolith and Obelisk probably did so well.
Part of the reason is that ITC Format doesn't let you bring every single thing you want.
The other part is that less Melta is brought, simply because it is already easy enough to strip HP off AV14 anyway. Even in an environment like this, the Monolith is still junk. Necrons are already plenty speedy if you choose to build them as such, and the Monolith is stuck with snap-firing its other weapons if you use the Particle Whip.
That said, the Obelisk becomes a slightly better choice. 100 more points gives you 2 more HP and the Super Heavy status, and Tesla Spheres are a much better deal than 4 Gauss Flux Arcs and the Particle Whip. Plus it can harm the only vehicles that matter: skimmers.
However, I would think that the Vault is a better buy if you want to throw a giant target in the middle of your opponent's army, as it'll do an explosion regardless of how it lost its last HP. However, I'm not going to bother with the kit anyway because I hear too many arguments about how you use the Spheres when determining what they can target.
Part of the reason is that ITC Format doesn't let you bring every single thing you want.
The other part is that less Melta is brought, simply because it is already easy enough to strip HP off AV14 anyway. Even in an environment like this, the Monolith is still junk. Necrons are already plenty speedy if you choose to build them as such, and the Monolith is stuck with snap-firing its other weapons if you use the Particle Whip.
That said, the Obelisk becomes a slightly better choice. 100 more points gives you 2 more HP and the Super Heavy status, and Tesla Spheres are a much better deal than 4 Gauss Flux Arcs and the Particle Whip. Plus it can harm the only vehicles that matter: skimmers.
However, I would think that the Vault is a better buy if you want to throw a giant target in the middle of your opponent's army, as it'll do an explosion regardless of how it lost its last HP. However, I'm not going to bother with the kit anyway because I hear too many arguments about how you use the Spheres when determining what they can target.
Both the Obelisk and the Vault explode when they die, it's just that the Vault always gets the most powerful Superheavy Explosion. In fact, the Obelisk is better at blowing up, since it's not as wide as the Vault and therefore the explosion is more likely to scatter onto enemies instead of onto itself. There's still basically no reason to take the Vault.
Regarding the LVO list, I think that's basically the best way to use the Obelisk, that is, to use it as a central point for your alpha/beta strike with Living Tomb. The other way is to bring it by itself on the table in powered down mode and survive until everything comes in, but honestly everything else is so durable that we don't need to bring a 300 point model to guarantee we don't get tabled before Turn 2, some Warriors with 4+ RP and cover will do that just fine.
Deep Striking it by itself with the guaranteed T2 from Living Tomb (minus a Monolith) is fine... I suppose. It needs to do some real damage on the turn it comes down, though. If it does, it's a big distraction brick that will draw all the high Strength fire, but its effectiveness is really dependent on what you can supplement it with.
And yes, people will always complain about sphere facings. It's basically a given, so clear it with a TO before using it in a serious event.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Less investment would still make me take the Obelisk every time. That 250 points could go to almost 3 Deathmark squads or a minimum Canoptek Harvest.
Monoliths are about 50 Spotlights cheaper
But yes, you can get a lot from leaving the Monolith at home. But, you lose out on that precision DS and teleporting.
The sphere thing with the Obelisk is the only reason I'm hesitant to buy one. It's really dumb that a model that expensive is make or break based on a single poorly written rule.
Zimko wrote: The sphere thing with the Obelisk is the only reason I'm hesitant to buy one. It's really dumb that a model that expensive is make or break based on a single poorly written rule.
It always seems obvious to me. The gun is called a Tesla Sphere, so the enclosure around the sphere provides the turret.
Zimko wrote: The sphere thing with the Obelisk is the only reason I'm hesitant to buy one. It's really dumb that a model that expensive is make or break based on a single poorly written rule.
It always seems obvious to me. The gun is called a Tesla Sphere, so the enclosure around the sphere provides the turret.
Which is how most people play it, but others point out that the Spheres actually have a vertical "track" that the "barrel" sits on. As there is nothing that explicitly says it has full horizontal motion, it comes up every once in a while. I've never seen anyone argue it at a tournament (since without the full range it's 300 points of bunk), but you can always bet there'll be that one guy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now that GW is doing FAQ's maybe we'll get an answer hahaha!
I haven't been keeping up with the news, has there been any info on whether they actually ARE planning on finishing the FAQs? Or is it still just the GW running gag...
(it's been quite a while since we've had a usable FAQ... maybe it's because they're writing a new codex!)
I agree that it is lame that the arc of a weapon on a vehicle is based on how it can physically turn in the real world or not, but there is a little silver lineing in that with the obelisk in that you can place the barrel of it aiming downward so it will always have a decent shot. But like the monolith will still be difficult to get two of them to shoot at the same unit.
Oberron wrote: I agree that it is lame that the arc of a weapon on a vehicle is based on how it can physically turn in the real world or not, but there is a little silver lineing in that with the obelisk in that you can place the barrel of it aiming downward so it will always have a decent shot. But like the monolith will still be difficult to get two of them to shoot at the same unit.
If your TO adheres strictly to the 45 degree arc, then the inability to turn the barrel left or right makes it impossible to fire 2 at the same target unless that target were 18" long. It should be able to swivel like the monolith's weapons but for some reason they decided to make the model static.
It's such a specific question that I've never seen it brought up in a tournament's FAQ. Even calling ahead of time doesn't give a satisfactory answer because they don't have the model on hand.
Well, there was an Obelisk in the top 8 of LVO, so you could ask people who went how they ruled it. I would imagine full range of motion, otherwise it would not have placed that well.
Also, the list has the makings for a Lychstar but no Lychguard. Are the ICs attaching to the Wraiths?
This sort of list is pretty standard around here. Taking more then 3x3 destroyers is unusual, most people take more tomb blades instead. But yeah, the star is built around the wraith unit. It ends up being so much more mobile, even if the characters are still just as slow. Doesn't matter that much if the spyder dies, all the characters have RP anyway. Heavy destroyers are not really that good, I've also stopped using them. Although with ITC ruling on gauss not working on void shields, and those things being pretty common, I might take heavies just for that.
I do wonder what he ran up against. There are plenty of lists in my experience that have the capacity to just run roughshod through that. I mean, it would have a hard time with Eldar even playing to the objectives, just due to overall mobility discrepancy and the chance of getting Stomped out.
When running Triarch Stalkers, which gun is best? I'm currently debating between the heat ray and the HGC and the dilemma is whether I prefer the extra shot or the extra 12". I usually run two stalkers in a judicator battalion with the HGC and that works for me but is it as efficient as the heat ray. Would one of each be viable?
Typically it'll depend on what else you're bringing in your list.
Tons of foot slogging troops? Maybe heat Ray is alright.
Heavy Destroyers? Stick the HGC on it.
Just remember: if you go Heat Ray, you've gotta be close to use it... surviving to get into range for an open topped vehicle is not easy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Camping in cover? Use the HGC.
Trying to get to the enemy up close? Keep it stock.
The Particle Shredder or whatever is cool seeing that it IS a Large Blast.
I'm actually tempted to run a squad of 3 with Particle Shredders someday. The formation benefits would essentially give the Shedders "Shred". I feel that would be deadly with the amount of hits it would dish out.
I guess if you know you're likely to run into Greentide it isn't a bad option, and S7 rerolling to penetrate can at least get an HP stripped.
It feels wrong not going with the HGC though. You can camp in terrain and just make sure the driver's head can poke out at the field so you can choose targets each turn!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I guess if you know you're likely to run into Greentide it isn't a bad option, and S7 rerolling to penetrate can at least get an HP stripped.
It feels wrong not going with the HGC though. You can camp in terrain and just make sure the driver's head can poke out at the field so you can choose targets each turn!
This is also true. I firmly believe that every weapon on the Stalker is good, just for different reasons.
How do you guys defend your Harvest Spyders against Alpha Strikes such as pods? I often lose mine on turn 1 to super aggressive drops from AdMech or SM, especially if they have Grav.
I was looking at fortifications, but I'm unsure. VSG is nice if you can buffer out the space with Warriors and Scarabs to prevent the Pods from getting in, but the shields aren't too hard for many armies to take down (Eldar or any Imperial with a Knight drops it pretty fast). Skyshield gives the Spyders a 4++, but Grav and things like Crusader Knights have enough shots to still strip it down quickly. One could take a Bastion and just put it in a corner, using it to LOS block since it's basically a big brick of vision block.
Or do you just accept that it's going to go down and move on with your game?
Requizen wrote: How do you guys defend your Harvest Spyders against Alpha Strikes such as pods? I often lose mine on turn 1 to super aggressive drops from AdMech or SM, especially if they have Grav.
I was looking at fortifications, but I'm unsure. VSG is nice if you can buffer out the space with Warriors and Scarabs to prevent the Pods from getting in, but the shields aren't too hard for many armies to take down (Eldar or any Imperial with a Knight drops it pretty fast). Skyshield gives the Spyders a 4++, but Grav and things like Crusader Knights have enough shots to still strip it down quickly. One could take a Bastion and just put it in a corner, using it to LOS block since it's basically a big brick of vision block.
Or do you just accept that it's going to go down and move on with your game?
I try to hide it out of LOS as best as possible, and bubble wrap to the best of my ability.
However, that's not guaranteed to work, and thus you just move on with your game.
Tzeench vs Necrons, principally the screamer star vs Orikan star. The combat lasted five turns (10 rounds of combat in tota) and by the end of it all I had was a single overlord having not killed a thing in the screamers.
He had, 9 x jetbike flying things, 3 x disks, 1x book, 1x D thirster. D thirster was invisible the whole time, book and other powers gave them all a 2+ rerollable invincible save.
I had: 10 sword and board lychguard, 1 overlord VR, PS, 1 overlord PS, WS, RO, NS, 1 lord PS, WS, 1 Orikan, 1 Tolhok the Blinded. 2+ rerollable armour save, 3++, 4+++, 1's rerollable.
I did not kill a single demon.
Advice please? I seriously think my list was the best it could have been...
You're not supposed to be able to kill the Screamerstar. 2++ rerolling isn't something you stop, just slow down. Throw Warriors at it and send your big scary deathstar somewhere else. Actually, better to use the Lychguard to tie up the Bloodthirster otherwise it's going to just rampage around the board and kill everything else.
You shouldn't expect to table Daemons unless you get really lucky on dice. You should instead just try to play to the objectives and ignore the power units.
Toholk the Blinded can't be in that group anyway, seeing that the Red Harvest Necrons are AoC.
Other than that, you really can't kill it, but they really can't kill Lychguard either. Tying them up isn't a bad idea, but I wouldn't use THAT many Lychguard.
So, ended up getting a game in using the double Retribution formation + Orokin CAD with 2 immortal squads, 5 sword and board lychguard, and 3 heavy destroyers. Was against KDK running a 8 squads of Bloodletters, 2 cannons, and 4 squads of cultists.
With 10 man warrior squads and 9 base scarabs in the Retribution Phalanxes, I was impressed with the amount of killing going on. I did a LOT of charging to deny the Bloodletters their charge advantage, although truth be told perhaps that wasn't the best idea. I didn't actually lose any entire squads until turn 4, although both Scarab squads got stuck in immediately and the warrior squad I respawned did do some shooting. But ultimately even nasty close combat squads were not chewing through the scarab swarms very fast, which surprised me.
45 attacks as the scarabs hurl themselves into their targets does a lot of damage, although the potential is much higher against WS4 models rather than WS5 Bloodletters. They also served as amazing tarpits, soaking up boatloads of wounds and staying in the fight for quite a long time. Dawn of War its entirely possible to have your scarabs charge turn 1, and 36 wounds is non-trivial to remove from the table. Smaller squads to take advantage of the ability to reappear and charge somewhere else.
Redeployment was surprisingly easy - within 3" gives you a lot of leeway, even for scarab bases. Overall I was impressed, although nothing was wiped off the table very quickly. The CAD though... well, there's not a lot there, although the Lychguard were a great wood chipper and bunker for my Overlords and Orokin. The Immortals just sat back and shot and then got assaulted off the table. That could use some tweaking, although it may have to do with the specific list as well.
RuneGrey wrote: So, ended up getting a game in using the double Retribution formation + Orokin CAD with 2 immortal squads, 5 sword and board lychguard, and 3 heavy destroyers. Was against KDK running a 8 squads of Bloodletters, 2 cannons, and 4 squads of cultists.
With 10 man warrior squads and 9 base scarabs in the Retribution Phalanxes, I was impressed with the amount of killing going on. I did a LOT of charging to deny the Bloodletters their charge advantage, although truth be told perhaps that wasn't the best idea. I didn't actually lose any entire squads until turn 4, although both Scarab squads got stuck in immediately and the warrior squad I respawned did do some shooting. But ultimately even nasty close combat squads were not chewing through the scarab swarms very fast, which surprised me.
45 attacks as the scarabs hurl themselves into their targets does a lot of damage, although the potential is much higher against WS4 models rather than WS5 Bloodletters. They also served as amazing tarpits, soaking up boatloads of wounds and staying in the fight for quite a long time. Dawn of War its entirely possible to have your scarabs charge turn 1, and 36 wounds is non-trivial to remove from the table. Smaller squads to take advantage of the ability to reappear and charge somewhere else.
Redeployment was surprisingly easy - within 3" gives you a lot of leeway, even for scarab bases. Overall I was impressed, although nothing was wiped off the table very quickly. The CAD though... well, there's not a lot there, although the Lychguard were a great wood chipper and bunker for my Overlords and Orokin. The Immortals just sat back and shot and then got assaulted off the table. That could use some tweaking, although it may have to do with the specific list as well.
Only 1 scarab base need to within 3" so you can congo-line the scarabs into new assaults.
Also, make sure to multi-assault with the scarabs so they will get recycled more frequently.
Also, you generally want to reserve your immortals and hide them next to objectives.
Not a lot of opportunity for multi-assault, and ultimately I was needing the huge mass of attacks to help cut down on the Bloodletters - but its definitely an idea. The deployment issue is honestly debatable - 'set up within 3 inches' can as easily mean setting up everything within 3, and that's how I play it for non-tourney games. Conga line allows you to charge anything, anywhere on the board if you're even close to the center, which is incredibly broken.
Immortals were nice and safe on objectives, but mass deep strike can always be a bit of a problem.
RuneGrey wrote: Not a lot of opportunity for multi-assault, and ultimately I was needing the huge mass of attacks to help cut down on the Bloodletters - but its definitely an idea. The deployment issue is honestly debatable - 'set up within 3 inches' can as easily mean setting up everything within 3, and that's how I play it for non-tourney games. Conga line allows you to charge anything, anywhere on the board if you're even close to the center, which is incredibly broken.
Immortals were nice and safe on objectives, but mass deep strike can always be a bit of a problem.
The BRB rule is clear in differentiating between 'within' (just a sliver of 1 scarab base within) and 'wholly within' (all scarab bases within 3') so you are handicapping yourself by playing it the way you do.
Spoiler:
Measuring Distances
The distance between the Space Marine unit and the hull of the Ork Trukk is 5
inches. We normally say that the Trukk is within 5" of the Space Marine unit.
Note that we always measure to the hull of a vehicle.
The distance between the Space Marine unit and the Ork unit (i.e. between the
two closest models) is 3 inches. The two units are within 3" of each other.
The distance between the Ork Trukk and the furthest point on the most distant
Space Marine is 8 inches. The Space Marine unit is therefore wholly within 8"
of the Ork Trukk.
There is a considerable difference between talking about completely within for all models (which isn't realistic to do) and only one model being within 3" and the rest within 2" coherency after that. I agree that you only need to have a sliver within 3" of the Overlord, however the less broken approach is that the entire squad must deploy within 3" of the Overlord, not merely one member.
This still gives you a huge amount of control over the board, especially if you're commanding the center of the field - you can realistically hit any unit within 24" of your Overlord even deploying the whole squad within 3". Roughly 5" to the far edge of your furthest scarab base, followed by a 12" beast move, and then a 7" rerollable charge. Basically means if your Overlord is midfield that your scarbs can hit your opponent's table edge across most of the table.
RuneGrey wrote: There is a considerable difference between talking about completely within for all models (which isn't realistic to do) and only one model being within 3" and the rest within 2" coherency after that. I agree that you only need to have a sliver within 3" of the Overlord, however the less broken approach is that the entire squad must deploy within 3" of the Overlord, not merely one member.
This still gives you a huge amount of control over the board, especially if you're commanding the center of the field - you can realistically hit any unit within 24" of your Overlord even deploying the whole squad within 3". Roughly 5" to the far edge of your furthest scarab base, followed by a 12" beast move, and then a 7" rerollable charge. Basically means if your Overlord is midfield that your scarbs can hit your opponent's table edge across most of the table.
Spoiler:
From the Sands, We Rise: If the unit of Necron warriors or Scarabs from a Retribution Phalanx is wiped out, it can return to the battlefield at the start of your next turn. The unit must be set up within 3" of the Necron Overlord from this Formation.
The rules are super clear on this. The rule would say "the models of the unit must be set up within 3"" if it were supposed to resolve as you say. "Unit must be setup within 3"" is satisfied by a single model of the scarab unit "within" the 3" range.
Spoiler:
Distances between units are always measured to and from the bases of the closest models in each of the units
So long as the closest scarab model is within 3" of the Overlord, the scarab unit has been deployed within 3" of the Overlord and the rule is satisfied.
It's not like you require the IC to be within 2" of every model in a Lychguard unit to be able to join a unit, correct?
[edit]
oh wtf??
I was just expressing my disappointment at yet ANOTHER rules lawyering bonanza going down in the tactics thread when the dice gods decided i needed to be top post on another page AGAIN.
(I really need to pay attention to how many posts a page has before I say anything from now on. it's getting ridiculous)
[edit]
oh wtf??
I was just expressing my disappointment at yet ANOTHER rules lawyering bonanza going down in the tactics thread when the dice gods decided i needed to be top post on another page AGAIN.
(I really need to pay attention to how many posts a page has before I say anything from now on. it's getting ridiculous)
It's okay. Not happens to the best of us.
Now, on a completely different note, let us consider the viability of a list with three squads of three Triarch Stalkers.
They also are expensive. 30 pts per model, 20 more for the shield.
And they will need an assault vehicle because walking will get them nowhere.
Kill them with weight of fire or Str 8. That being said, Necrons don't have much of either of them. The best option could be Flayed Ones and their insane number of attacks.
I reckon a claw or 2 are pretty good. I5 S6 AP2 Shred is massive.
It means charging them with say, a kitted out squad of vanguard vets, is worthless, you will get turned to mince before you swing, even if the vets are all sporting lightning claws. Each claw wulfen will kill 2 MEQs before they swing, when they get charged.
On the charge 1 claw dude will kill 3 MEQs, and if he then gets killed at I4, he kills another 3. 42 points for that killing power is mental.
Any fancy beatstick HQ like draigo or calgar, will fare much better against the TH/SS , but getting 12 S6 AP2 Shred attacks from a 42 point model on the charge will annihilate most models, and this is still before I1
Thing I'm wondering is: do we shoot 'em or melee them?
If shoot, with what? (Destroyers to get through their armor? Heavies to get some S8 on them? Drown them in gauss?)
If melee, who? (Wraiths/Orikan-star to tarpit? Praets/Lychguard to get past armor? Flayed Ones to make them fail saves?)
Well, if they bring all of them with Stormshields, just drown them in fire. Warriors, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Tesla Destructors, ext. Shoot as much as you can, then tie up the rest with Wraiths.
If they only bring a few with Shields and keep them out front, then Deep Striking a Monolith on their Flank or Rear suddenly becomes an attractive idea.
Hey since heavy destroyers are jetpacks now I was wondering how a unit of heavy destroyers with illuminor Szeras with them would work. His S8 ap2 lance would aim at the same targets a h.destroyer would, he give the unit a +1to rp as well as any other unit around him and the t5 helps protect szeras. With a destroyer cult formation he would work better then the D.lord would in a unit. His bonus to a unit of immortals/warriors would just be a bonus at this point.
Oberron wrote: Hey since heavy destroyers are jetpacks now I was wondering how a unit of heavy destroyers with illuminor Szeras with them would work. His S8 ap2 lance would aim at the same targets a h.destroyer would, he give the unit a +1to rp as well as any other unit around him and the t5 helps protect szeras. With a destroyer cult formation he would work better then the D.lord would in a unit. His bonus to a unit of immortals/warriors would just be a bonus at this point.
Thoughts?
I take advantage of jetpack mobility a lot with my Destroyers, so I don't think you want him to actually join a Destroyer unit.
Oberron wrote: Hey since heavy destroyers are jetpacks now I was wondering how a unit of heavy destroyers with illuminor Szeras with them would work. His S8 ap2 lance would aim at the same targets a h.destroyer would, he give the unit a +1to rp as well as any other unit around him and the t5 helps protect szeras. With a destroyer cult formation he would work better then the D.lord would in a unit. His bonus to a unit of immortals/warriors would just be a bonus at this point.
Thoughts?
I take advantage of jetpack mobility a lot with my Destroyers, so I don't think you want him to actually join a Destroyer unit.
True the mobility is nice. Maybe stick him in a ghost ark so his area is bigger and target a 20man warrior unit with his ability and just support it with the GA to keep them up. Still gives the +1 to everything, and still has decent protection. I have a 1k game tomorrow I think i'll try him in it. see how its goes
Well, there used to be a tactic with the 6th ed codex where you'd take Harbingers of Destruction and stick them in Ghost Arks to give them a lascanon... that's essentially what you're doing here (though you'd never do this in a bigger point game. Too many points to justify it... I miss the Harbingers)
skoffs wrote: Well, there used to be a tactic with the 6th ed codex where you'd take Harbingers of Destruction and stick them in Ghost Arks to give them a lascanon... that's essentially what you're doing here (though you'd never do this in a bigger point game. Too many points to justify it... I miss the Harbingers)
As much as I hate allying with the dirty fish, I was thinking of taking a Farsight Enclaves detachment with ObSec suits. While I really love my Destroyers, I think some varied shooting might be worthwhile, and getting the ObSec deep striking alongside my Decurion might be quite worthwhile.
Will want to convert them up to be a bit more Necron-y though...
Personally, I don't understand why they gave Destroyers only two weapon choices.
I mean, these guys are supposed to be customization junkies, right? Always swapping out parts of their bodies for bits that help them kill better... and yet none of them decided to strap a Tesla Canon onto their arm instead of a Gauss Canon? They'll stick a Heavy Gauss Canon on, but not a Heat Ray? None of them thought Particle Blast Weapons or Transdimensional Beamers were of any interest?
... lazy, Gw. Lazy.
skoffs wrote:Personally, I don't understand why they gave Destroyers only two weapon choices.
I mean, these guys are supposed to be customization junkies, right? Always swapping out parts of their bodies for bits that help them kill better... and yet none of them decided to strap a Tesla Canon onto their arm instead of a Gauss Canon? They'll stick a Heavy Gauss Canon on, but not a Heat Ray? None of them thought Particle Blast Weapons or Transdimensional Beamers were of any interest?
... lazy, Gw. Lazy.
I second this, given we don't have a massive pool of weaponry to swap around on our squads, I feel this would have been a very solid potential space for us to do that. Otherwise it's really only tomb blades and wraiths with the option of having more than 2 weapons, and the wraiths are only realistically going to run one option the majority of the time anyway.
skoffs wrote: Personally, I don't understand why they gave Destroyers only two weapon choices.
I mean, these guys are supposed to be customization junkies, right? Always swapping out parts of their bodies for bits that help them kill better... and yet none of them decided to strap a Tesla Canon onto their arm instead of a Gauss Canon? They'll stick a Heavy Gauss Canon on, but not a Heat Ray? None of them thought Particle Blast Weapons or Transdimensional Beamers were of any interest?
... lazy, Gw. Lazy.
Tesla didn't exist when the models were first designed. Any new options would have required a new kit in this post-Chapterhouse age. The only new kit that we got with the new codex was the Overlord.
skoffs wrote: Personally, I don't understand why they gave Destroyers only two weapon choices.
I mean, these guys are supposed to be customization junkies, right? Always swapping out parts of their bodies for bits that help them kill better... and yet none of them decided to strap a Tesla Canon onto their arm instead of a Gauss Canon? They'll stick a Heavy Gauss Canon on, but not a Heat Ray? None of them thought Particle Blast Weapons or Transdimensional Beamers were of any interest?
... lazy, Gw. Lazy.
Tesla didn't exist when the models were first designed. Any new options would have required a new kit in this post-Chapterhouse age. The only new kit that we got with the new codex was the Overlord.
An upgrade sprue wouldn't have been possible? They did it for the Destroyer Lord and Heavy Destroyers.
Hell, they could have been utter bastards and made it exclusively available only in the box of three.
Though, I digress, this isn't tactic related...
Back on topic,
So Cult Destroyers are pretty decent against armor, what with their rerolls for pens (they also ain't bad against Wolfen)... if you were trying to run them that way and REALLY wanted to go gung-ho with 18 of 'em at once, would there be any point in going three units of 6 in a single Cult, or is double Cult for six units of 3 the only way to go?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't impossible for those bitz to be made either; the Tomb Blades have Tesla stuff that you could mess around with.
The real question comes down to, Would you really want to exchange the Gauss Cannons for Tesla Cannons on Destroyers?
Hahaha not even a little bit. Sure, PE on the unit for chances at more Tesla is nice, but Destroyers are our AP3 unit and trading that out feels really, really poor. And having the rerolls for Gauss in the formation has gotten me plenty of glances on AV12+, which Tesla doesn't do.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't impossible for those bitz to be made either; the Tomb Blades have Tesla stuff that you could mess around with.
The real question comes down to, Would you really want to exchange the Gauss Cannons for Tesla Cannons on Destroyers?
Hahaha not even a little bit. Sure, PE on the unit for chances at more Tesla is nice, but Destroyers are our AP3 unit and trading that out feels really, really poor. And having the rerolls for Gauss in the formation has gotten me plenty of glances on AV12+, which Tesla doesn't do.
Well, I mean, it could glance AV12. Remember, Tesla Cannons are actually S6.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't impossible for those bitz to be made either; the Tomb Blades have Tesla stuff that you could mess around with.
The real question comes down to, Would you really want to exchange the Gauss Cannons for Tesla Cannons on Destroyers?
Hahaha not even a little bit. Sure, PE on the unit for chances at more Tesla is nice, but Destroyers are our AP3 unit and trading that out feels really, really poor. And having the rerolls for Gauss in the formation has gotten me plenty of glances on AV12+, which Tesla doesn't do.
Well, I mean, it could glance AV12. Remember, Tesla Cannons are actually S6.
Oh, I suppose that's right. Still, doesn't help against Knight front armor. And AP3 against MEQ or worse and against WKs (where Destroyers also come in handy) is a pretty good thing.
I dunno. I rarely find a reason to bring Tesla when Gauss is available. If the Night Scythe/Doom Scythe could bring Heavy Gauss Cannons instead of the Tesla Cannons I'd be ripping apart my flyers post-haste.
Oh, I suppose that's right. Still, doesn't help against Knight front armor. And AP3 against MEQ or worse and against WKs (where Destroyers also come in handy) is a pretty good thing.
I dunno. I rarely find a reason to bring Tesla when Gauss is available. If the Night Scythe/Doom Scythe could bring Heavy Gauss Cannons instead of the Tesla Cannons I'd be ripping apart my flyers post-haste.
Oooooo, I'd be right there with you. Twin-linked Heavy Gauss Cannons fo days.
Still, I'd like to think if Destroyers had the option, I'd actually try it out every so often. Especially if I wanted to play a more fun, less competitive Destroyer Cult list. But over all you're right, the AP3 and Gauss is too good to pass up.
Speaking of Destroyer Cult, is anyone else annoyed you have to bring a minimum of 3 units of Destroyers? I don't mind making the minimum squad 3, but it makes the cost too high for smaller games, and gives less points to play with.
If it were a Destroyer Lord and a minimum of 2 units of Destroyers, I'd be ecstatic. Also would like to take 0-2 units of Heavy Destroyers but that's a different topic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Speaking of Destroyer Cult, is anyone else annoyed you have to bring a minimum of 3 units of Destroyers? I don't mind making the minimum squad 3, but it makes the cost too high for smaller games, and gives less points to play with.
If it were a Destroyer Lord and a minimum of 2 units of Destroyers, I'd be ecstatic. Also would like to take 0-2 units of Heavy Destroyers but that's a different topic.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Speaking of Destroyer Cult, is anyone else annoyed you have to bring a minimum of 3 units of Destroyers? I don't mind making the minimum squad 3, but it makes the cost too high for smaller games, and gives less points to play with.
If it were a Destroyer Lord and a minimum of 2 units of Destroyers, I'd be ecstatic. Also would like to take 0-2 units of Heavy Destroyers but that's a different topic.
It was annoying at first, as I only owned 3 Destroyers. But I personally like it. It makes it feel more like a "cult" in my mind.
But yeah, I wish you could take at least 2 units of Heavy Destroyers.
Well i had my game with Szeras in a ghost ark, it worked out pretty well. I had a unit of H.destroyers sitting on one objective (got skyfire which turned the game in my favor painfully) conga lined just to be in range of the stalker (with HGC) and the ghost ark for +1 rp and had two units of warriors slowly inch of the field getting repaired by the ark. This was a 1k point game againt a nid player who went for heavy long range attack units (24-36 range) and had most of his army hiding in a building with the guy that gives shroud, he also had two FMC one was his warlord and another had a bunch of 1-shot weapons (I have no clue the names of nid units so i'm trying the best I can). He was having great luck with scattering his blast and average luck on wounds but the warriors kept making their saves and the re-roll pinning/moral saved a warrior units life twice. He conceded at the bottom of 2 after I killed off his hq flyer (this aside from a outflanking unit of 5 models was his own loss).
I felt bad about it because I didn't know what he was bringing or even playing and I just wanted to try out a new strat (also brought a nightbringer for giggles but it didn't do much). I feel bad for the guy because he felt like he couldn't do anything to me (even though I was still losing warriors even with the ghost ark) and Ifeel bad about the fight because it looked like he wasn't having fun after I killed his hq (he thought moving it between my skyfire unit of H.destroyers and a building would give it the building's(ruins) cover save which I pointed out it only gives the ruin's save only if you are in it but he still got a 5+ for 25% hidden)
At 1k points it seems like it is almost a mini decurion but at larger points I cansee it easily being delt with.
The HQ flyer is a Flying Hive Tyrant. It sounds like he gave it a Venom Cannon which is an odd/bad choice. Was the other flyer similar (3+ save)? or was it a Harpy/Crone? (4+ save)
Either way, long ranged tyranids don't work. Even competitive tyranids struggle against Necrons. It's a shame points values don't mean anything anymore when it comes to having a balanced game.
Zimko wrote: The HQ flyer is a Flying Hive Tyrant. It sounds like he gave it a Venom Cannon which is an odd/bad choice. Was the other flyer similar (3+ save)? or was it a Harpy/Crone? (4+ save)
Either way, long ranged tyranids don't work. Even competitive tyranids struggle against Necrons. It's a shame points values don't mean anything anymore when it comes to having a balanced game.
His hq had two 6shot twin-link s6 ap- guns The other flyer had a 4+ save but like 5 or 6 wounds or something. I still feel bad about it because it was a game for our escalation league we are having.
Zimko wrote: The HQ flyer is a Flying Hive Tyrant. It sounds like he gave it a Venom Cannon which is an odd/bad choice. Was the other flyer similar (3+ save)? or was it a Harpy/Crone? (4+ save)
Either way, long ranged tyranids don't work. Even competitive tyranids struggle against Necrons. It's a shame points values don't mean anything anymore when it comes to having a balanced game.
His hq had two 6shot twin-link s6 ap- guns The other flyer had a 4+ save but like 5 or 6 wounds or something. I still feel bad about it because it was a game for our escalation league we are having.
Well that makes more sense. Those are the twin-linked Devourers that are the common build for Flying Hive Tyrants. The other flyer was either a Harpy or Hive Crone. Both have 5 wounds but only 4+ saves. Either way, it sounds like the battle was lop-sided as far as power level. But he brought it to the league so you shouldn't feel ashamed of playing the rules. The rules are just poorly balanced.
Anyone ever play against a Corpsethief Claw formation with good results? I'm playing a planetstrike game today probably against that formation and there seems to be little I can do against it besides outright ignoring it.
It isn't that hard to kill. Like, a Destroyer Cult is ignoring all their armor and you can saturate enough Deathmarks to force wounds they'll not save.
Hmmm, my opponent also seems to run some type of leadership modifiers combined with a nova psychic shriek. I'm thinking it might not be worth it to bring a canoptek harvest as he may just melt them away between that and the talos.
GW is putting out legit ChaosRenegade Knights. They have their own detachment, which counts as CSM. Which means, for us Necrons, that we have 1-3 Imperial Knights (but better, sorta) that we can just plug and play into our army. No need to go to FW, no need to Come the Apocalypse Imperial stuff, just good old fashioned Super Heavy Walkers with our unending legions.
While we can't interact with them (i.e. can't Invis them, can't repair them, etc), Knights are pretty good without that. In fact, it helps us a lot in some of our less favorable matchups - Rapid Fire Battle Cannons and Avenger Gatling Cannons deal with a lot of the things that we're relatively weak against. They can reach and obliterate Bikes, Gatling Cannons can burn down Riptides and Wraithknights (eventually), and they can Stomp out Deathstars that give us trouble.
One synchronizes pretty well, I think. Wraiths + Necron MSU + Knight feels good. You can go lighter on Necrons and bring 2, as well.
Alternatively, you could splurge another 400 points and bring Be'lakor + 10 Cultists, and make your Knight almost always Invisible, which is not bad. Knight + Be'lakor + Necron MSU (thinking Flyers with Troops, Deathmarks, maybe some Wraiths?) could be pretty good. Though, less Necron-y overall than just the Knight.
I'm already salivating at the conversion possibilities. Doomsday Cannons in place of Battle Cannons? A bunch of Tesla Destroyers instead of Gatling Cannons? Gonna put Scarabs all over it for sure.
GW is putting out legit ChaosRenegade Knights. They have their own detachment, which counts as CSM. Which means, for us Necrons, that we have 1-3 Imperial Knights (but better, sorta) that we can just plug and play into our army. No need to go to FW, no need to Come the Apocalypse Imperial stuff, just good old fashioned Super Heavy Walkers with our unending legions.
While we can't interact with them (i.e. can't Invis them, can't repair them, etc), Knights are pretty good without that. In fact, it helps us a lot in some of our less favorable matchups - Rapid Fire Battle Cannons and Avenger Gatling Cannons deal with a lot of the things that we're relatively weak against. They can reach and obliterate Bikes, Gatling Cannons can burn down Riptides and Wraithknights (eventually), and they can Stomp out Deathstars that give us trouble.
One synchronizes pretty well, I think. Wraiths + Necron MSU + Knight feels good. You can go lighter on Necrons and bring 2, as well.
Alternatively, you could splurge another 400 points and bring Be'lakor + 10 Cultists, and make your Knight almost always Invisible, which is not bad. Knight + Be'lakor + Necron MSU (thinking Flyers with Troops, Deathmarks, maybe some Wraiths?) could be pretty good. Though, less Necron-y overall than just the Knight.
I'm already salivating at the conversion possibilities. Doomsday Cannons in place of Battle Cannons? A bunch of Tesla Destroyers instead of Gatling Cannons? Gonna put Scarabs all over it for sure.
I'm so excited about this addition as well. The fact it is it's own chaos marine aligned detachment means no tax to bring a knight. I'm thinking just a normal errant pattern can add the necessary anti-deathstar Necrons generally lack.
The FW ones are great, but they require lots of tax to take. And, of course, being FW (and having Experimental Rules on top of that) means people might not like bringing them.
hi guys. So I'm up against IG tomorrow for the first time, wondering what I should be worried about etc. he's running 88 infantry, 3 heavy weapons, a Valkyrie, leman russ, basilisk, manticore, wyvern and a chimera. I'm running a Decurion w/ a tooled up CCB, 5 immortals, 5 lychguard w scythes, 20 warriors (10 in GA), 3 squads of 4 tomb blades (one gun type per squad) 9 flayed ones and a destroyer cult w/ tooled up d/lord, 9 destroyers and 3 HD. I'm running the squads of TB with different weapons to get a sense of damage potential vs horde (first time against a horde army).
My plan is to try and tank a lot of fire with my GA and CCB, to try and get my lychguard and d/lord at the big weapons in the back, and the flayed ones, TB and rapid fire gauss to whittle down the mob before that. What should I look out for?
Game type hasn't been decided yet nor has table setup
The only other troops I have built and available are a Canoptek harvest and an overlord. I didn't want to bring the harvest as I feel that's a bit OTT, and I just got my cult and blade wing painted so wanted to see them in action!
Klowny wrote: hi guys. So I'm up against IG tomorrow for the first time, wondering what I should be worried about etc. he's running 88 infantry, 3 heavy weapons, a Valkyrie, leman russ, basilisk, manticore, wyvern and a chimera. I'm running a Decurion w/ a tooled up CCB, 5 immortals, 5 lychguard w scythes, 20 warriors (10 in GA), 3 squads of 4 tomb blades (one gun type per squad) 9 flayed ones and a destroyer cult w/ tooled up d/lord, 9 destroyers and 3 HD. I'm running the squads of TB with different weapons to get a sense of damage potential vs horde (first time against a horde army).
My plan is to try and tank a lot of fire with my GA and CCB, to try and get my lychguard and d/lord at the big weapons in the back, and the flayed ones, TB and rapid fire gauss to whittle down the mob before that. What should I look out for?
Game type hasn't been decided yet nor has table setup
The only other troops I have built and available are a Canoptek harvest and an overlord. I didn't want to bring the harvest as I feel that's a bit OTT, and I just got my cult and blade wing painted so wanted to see them in action!
Take swim wear and don't drown in his tears.
Seriously, you should tear that imperial guard army apart. Make sure you have a plan to get at the tanks quickly and early and then just mop up the infantry. Imperial guard infantry are just rubbish. I daresay a squad of ten warriors could killed fifty imperial guard with ease.
Hey guys. I'm heading down to my buddies for a weekend of gaming soon, and I will inevitably be dusting off my crons (I've been building up my Dark Angels over the last 6 months or so)
I'm expecting to run into war convocation and space wolves, so I'm looking for any tactics you guys can offer? I have struggled in the past with War Convocation, as our range is quite limited and our staying power is truly tested by the obscene number of shots they put out.
In terms of models I basically have a decent amount of all of our units and every IC, so feel free to throw suggestions out there!?
MonumentOfRibs wrote: Hey guys. I'm heading down to my buddies for a weekend of gaming soon, and I will inevitably be dusting off my crons (I've been building up my Dark Angels over the last 6 months or so)
I'm expecting to run into war convocation and space wolves, so I'm looking for any tactics you guys can offer? I have struggled in the past with War Convocation, as our range is quite limited and our staying power is truly tested by the obscene number of shots they put out.
In terms of models I basically have a decent amount of all of our units and every IC, so feel free to throw suggestions out there!?
War Convocation is a hassle for Necrons. We don't have a super reliable way of killing the Knight, and if they do the super cover Canticle, our only ignores cover guns are on Tomb Blades, otherwise they're getting 2+ on anything in any sort of cover, which we can't really deal with. However, we are way more durable than their mass fire is used to, so take advantage of that and just try to outlast on objectives.
Space Wolves depends on the army. Thunderwolves you can tie up with Wraiths for a while, unless they ally in Hit and Run. Either way, just spread out against it. Against any other army, you'll probably roll them since most of the SW codex isn't that competitive outside TWC stars. Their mass Drop Pod lists can't really table you as much as they'd like to, especially if you bring Decurion.
Yeah his favourite tactic is popping stealth and shrouded for two turns, knowing that my army basically can't touch his while he whittles mine down. Tomb blades are amazing against his Skitarii definitely, particle beamers especially. Normally in our games I actually manage to take down the Knight in the first two turns. It's the Kastellans and Grav destroyers that absolutely wreck my day. So should my plan be to take out the knight, then avoid his army as best I can and hope maelstrom favours me?
And there won't be a showing of super friends thankfully. We try and play fluffy and fun games, and the thought of mixing Dark Angels with Wolves makes him angry.
I have a meta question for other Necron players, with the move to lists like warp spider, jetbike, battle company spam, is AV 13 wall a good counter list at this point? The game end and flows but I think the time could be right to bring back mechanized Necrons.
It's not a bad idea, but I don't think it's a super meta buster. Battle company still runs a decent number of anti tank guns (drop BC especially uses Melta a lot), and Eldar will still have WKs to deal with vehicles. Warp Spiders can DS towards rear armor where they can glance with S6 as well.
I don't think full on vehicle spam is back, but Ghost Arks in particular might see a resurgence.
The issue is that Grav doesn't give a damn what your armor is. If you run into more Eldar than Marines, it might be worth a shot if you weren't using them in the first place like I was.
A couple of quick questions for the Necron experts... I played a very fun and very close game last weekend against a very accomplished player who is new to Necrons. We spent some time figuring out exactly how his list worked, and it left us with some questions.
Where do the re-rolls of 1s on RP come from? I know it is an option, but I'm not sure whether it was named characters or wargear or otherwise, and we couldn't find it on the fly. Is it 1 phase, 1 turn, a limited radius, or whole table for the whole game?
Also, is the Doom Scythe Death Ray a 360-degree turret or a hull-mounted 45? Is that a Necron Codex detail or a BRB detail?
MacPhail wrote: A couple of quick questions for the Necron experts... I played a very fun and very close game last weekend against a very accomplished player who is new to Necrons. We spent some time figuring out exactly how his list worked, and it left us with some questions.
Where do the re-rolls of 1s on RP come from? I know it is an option, but I'm not sure whether it was named characters or wargear or otherwise, and we couldn't find it on the fly. Is it 1 phase, 1 turn, a limited radius, or whole table for the whole game?
Also, is the Doom Scythe Death Ray a 360-degree turret or a hull-mounted 45? Is that a Necron Codex detail or a BRB detail?
Thanks for your help!
Rerolls of 1 come from the Reclamation Legion formation. Any unit from that formation that is within 12" of the Overlord from that formation gets to reroll 1s on Reanimate. So, as long as he is alive and the unit is in range, you get the bonus, but once the unit gets out of range or he dies, it's gone. Often the Tomb Blades will be too far away, and the benefit will come up for his unit specifically and perhaps 1 or 2 others if you're marching up in a Silver Tide. A lot of times you'll either be spread out or have something moving in opposite directions.
Death Ray is usually always played Hull Mounted. The gun on the model itself cannot be rotated, and the design does not seem to be as such either.
Great, so taking out the Overlord or forcing him to spread out is the way to deal with that. It was a tough detail to counter! My opponent had 40 Warriors and 2 Ghost Arks in that group, so it certainly seemed like the whole table was re-rolling at times.
On the issue of the Death Ray, it was magnetized, presumably to run other weapon options, so it DID swivel 360, but it sounds like the kit isn't designed to do that. Thanks for clarifying!
I'm sure that's it... he'd want to run his flyers as either type, and he's not the sort to model for advantage.
Another question... with the temporary AV13 thing that Necrons have, should we roll penetration dice one shot at a time to know exactly when it goes down, or does a pen during one shooting attack drop it for all following attacks? We played it as the latter... e.g. I roll 2 glances and a pen with a single unit, and the penetrating hit drops the AV13 only after the glances have been shrugged off. If I had rolled them one at a time, I might have gotten some glances on the lower AV with the same shooting attack that gave me the pen. How do you all handle this?
Thanks again for helping us sort out the newest army in our club! Sorry if these are better posts for the YMDC forum, but I figured this is where the experienced Necron players would see them.
Technically I think you're supposed to roll the pens one at a time. Though I've never thought to do so. Typically my tanks die to melta or grav. In the case of melta, you roll the 2d6 armor pen one at a time anyway. In the case of grav, AV doesn't matter.
don't quote me because I am not 100% sure (no rulebook next to me) I believe shots are placed into pools, so if you have 4 lascannon shots on your ghost ark, 2 glance 1 pen, you take them all at once. you can roll the pen individually but they happen all at the same time. I don't believe you get to pick and choose "oh hey, I rolled 2 glances and a pen, the pen goes through first, now my two glances are now 2 pens cuz quantum shielding is down"
as soon as that volley of shots goes through, another lascannon will be able to glance it on a 3+
Yep, that's how we played it. The proper increment seems to be the unit rather than the weapon, although I could see an argument for either. I haven't played against Necrons much and wasn't much help in figuring how this player's newish army worked, but now that I've encountered Quantum Shielding (thanks for the name), I know to spread the melta around at the top of the shooting phase and save missiles and heavy bolters for later.
Valkenheim wrote: /Edited.. Read some thing wrong and got excited about the upcoming flier expansion
Supposedly we'll be getting some nice stuff in there. I saw a post where supposedly there's a formation that allows 3 Night Scythes to teleport a vehicle. Could be some nice tactics with that.
Not to mention the Attack Patterns that give bonuses for flyers in specific positions, some of which are supposedly pretty solid for us (like the ability to get Ignores Cover if you have three in a row, could be huge for Doom Scythes).
I'm just excited that more people might get suckered into using fliers so that I can ignore even more of my opponents' army and kill/capture everything else.
It's to early to say how cool or not the necron flyers will be in the new book, but as it stands 5 days before the release, night scythes are arguably worth the points, and doom scythes never are. Night scythes allow us to deploy lych stars in places we couldn't reach otherwise, due to scatter danger, or special rules against deep striking. It's the fastest transport in the game, able to deploy after moving up to 36 inches, so no objective is safe. Put Praetorian in it and drop them off after 23", and you have a no scatter deep striking gun line that is a serious threat to just about anyone.
The doom scythe on the other hand will almost never make it's points. It is completely dependent for functionality on the death ray, which is disabled on a jink (can't snap fire template weapons), and is a solution looking for a problem. It's literally the best weapon in the game that's not str D at penetrating high armor values, in a meta without high armor values. In 2/3 of cases (100% against super heavy vehicles) it will require more than 1 shot to kill a vehicle, something that is not going to happen on a hull mounted forward facing 24" range weapon mounted on a flyer that has to move at least 18". It's possible to ID infantry with it, but it has no way around an invl save, and it can't be fired at Invisible units. In 5th it would have been a cool weapon, but in 7th it would be overcost at half the price.
If the rumors about transporting vehicles are true, it could make judicator battalions a common site, a perfect deep strike on a stalker can make for a terrific alpha strike, but only if doom scythes suck less than they currently do. At a complete guess, I think they didn't make any changes to the death ray, which I'm guessing will discourage necrons from actually using the formation. Then again these are the same people that made the current tau and eldar codex's, so it's possible they made the deathray str D large blast templates for giggles.
Grimgold wrote: Put Praetorian in it and drop them off after 23", and you have a no scatter deep striking gun line that is a serious threat to just about anyone.
Assuming your local meta allows you to put Jump Infantry inside a transport. I really wish GW would get some real rules writers and testers.
The prateorians have it as a dedicated transport option, so it would amount to sophistry to argue that the codex says they can take it, but they can't actually get into their dedicated transport. They are bulky so you can only fit 7 of them in there, but 7 str 5 ap 2 shots can do a lot of work against say a riptide.
Grimgold wrote: The prateorians have it as a dedicated transport option, so it would amount to sophistry to argue that the codex says they can take it, but they can't actually get into their dedicated transport. They are bulky so you can only fit 7 of them in there, but 7 str 5 ap 2 shots can do a lot of work against say a riptide.
7 Rod shots against a Riptide does 1 wound, less if they have Ruin cover and/or FNP.
They're good at clearing out MSU but that's about it, the guns are good but not really super powerful enough to be a "gunline". I guess unless you use the Formation, where they get better but that formation is like super expensive.
Grimgold wrote: The prateorians have it as a dedicated transport option, so it would amount to sophistry to argue that the codex says they can take it, but they can't actually get into their dedicated transport. They are bulky so you can only fit 7 of them in there, but 7 str 5 ap 2 shots can do a lot of work against say a riptide.
7 Rod shots against a Riptide does 1 wound, less if they have Ruin cover and/or FNP.
They're good at clearing out MSU but that's about it, the guns are good but not really super powerful enough to be a "gunline". I guess unless you use the Formation, where they get better but that formation is like super expensive.
Well you only ever take them in that one formation, so is that including the potential rerolls?
The formation is actually really dangerous, and is competitively priced with a D-Cult. With formation they are BS 5, rerolling 1s so their chances to hit are (5/6 + (1/6 * 5/6)) = 35/36 shots land, they wound on a 5+ re-rolling failures so the chances for a wound are (1/3 + (2/3 * 1/3)) 5/9 of each hit. Quick back of the napkin says a little better than half the shots will be wounds (54%). If he is using his nova reactor for shields, he'll take one wound but he is already giving up quite a bit of fire power and mobility, other wise he is half dead in one volley.
If you can Invasion beam in the stalker via the new rules, and the prats can get close, you can end a riptide with him being able to do nothing about it. Though until next week we will have no idea if the pricing is right to pull this trick off. If death rays still blow, no amount of clever use will make this worthwhile.
They're only BS5 if they stay near the stalker, which they won't be if you're taking advantage of their mobility and speed (hint: you should be because they're pretty expensive), so it's slightly less than that. And it ends when the Stalker dies, which it often does.
The leaked ability to beam in the Stalker would require 3 Night Scythes in a formation, which is prohibitively expensive if you're already bringing the Judicator Battalion.
2 doom scythes and 1 night scythe, per this anyway https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Oppressor-Flight . Still yes, expensive as all get out. If the book made the Death ray a str D weapon, I might reconsider my position on it's uselessness, but that would be something the spoilers would shout about.
Grimgold wrote: The prateorians have it as a dedicated transport option, so it would amount to sophistry to argue that the codex says they can take it, but they can't actually get into their dedicated transport. They are bulky so you can only fit 7 of them in there, but 7 str 5 ap 2 shots can do a lot of work against say a riptide.
The sophistry would be claiming that they could embark because it's their dedicated transport. There are several units in the game that can purchase a dedicated transport that they potentially can't embark on due to the unit exceeding the transport capacity. Can I embark a full ten man Tactical Squad in a Razorback just because I can take it as a dedicated transport for the squad?
Anyway, this is off topic for this thread. Its been asked for the 40KFAQ and hopefully will be cleared up soon.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They could still embark at it at some point, can't they?
Or are Tactical squads 10 models minimum now?
The point is that they never lose the option to purchase the transport even if the squad size is too large for the transport. It disproves the statement that if a unit purchase a transport then they must be able to start the game in the transport.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They could still embark at it at some point, can't they?
Or are Tactical squads 10 models minimum now?
The point is that they never lose the option to purchase the transport even if the squad size is too large for the transport. It disproves the statement that if a unit purchase a transport then they must be able to start the game in the transport.
Not really since the thing that is stopping them from starting the game in the transport are two different things, type and size limit, AFAIK size limit has never been superseded by a rule while type has with permission.. But as you said this is off topic and hopefully will be cleared up soon.
Speaking of which have they said WHEN the FAQs will be coming out?
Things that may effect Necrons, from the FAQ first draft-
WEAPONS
Q: Can you clarify the use of a weapon as both a ranged and a melee weapon in the same turn?
A: A weapon that can be used as a ranged and a melee weapon can be used as both in the same turn unless specifically noted otherwise.
YES.
Praetorians, to the fore!
Q: Can a Jet Pack unit that has joined a different unit (e.g. a Necron Destroyer Lord joining Canoptek Wraiths) still use its jet pack move in the Assault phase?
A: Yes, but the model cannot leave its unit and must stay in unit coherency.
And make some room for the Destroyer Lord to get in there, too!
Q: The coverage range of the Void Shield Generators’ void shields is 12". If a unit is not entirely within the 12" range, does it still benefit from the Projected Void Shield special rule?
A: No.
No more conga-lined Scarabs getting invuln saves.
Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states ‘1 model’ (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists ‘1 Unit of models’ (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?
A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.
And no multi-Spyder Harvests, while you're at it (not like anyone was playing them that way anyway, though).
Q: How many Relics/Artefacts can a single model be equipped with?
A: A model can only be given a single Relic/Artefact of any kind unless specifically noted otherwise.
No more "one relic from the codex, one relic from the other book" Crypteks for the Conclave Of The Burning One?
Ugh, this hurts the Conclave. God Shackle is a must, so only Solar or Veil, and I don't like losing either of those.
Also, though: no toe in cover GCs. Nice! Drop Pods can't be used by battle brothers, so drop Skitarii and War Convos (which actually suck for Necrons) are no more! And Gauss hits Void Shields for officially now!
Requizen wrote: Ugh, this hurts the Conclave. God Shackle is a must, so only Solar or Veil, and I don't like losing either of those.
Also, though: no toe in cover GCs. Nice! Drop Pods can't be used by battle brothers, so drop Skitarii and War Convos (which actually suck for Necrons) are no more! And Gauss hits Void Shields for officially now!
You can still put the god shackle on a cryptek outside of the conclave, in a CAD or something.
Requizen wrote: Ugh, this hurts the Conclave. God Shackle is a must, so only Solar or Veil, and I don't like losing either of those.
Also, though: no toe in cover GCs. Nice! Drop Pods can't be used by battle brothers, so drop Skitarii and War Convos (which actually suck for Necrons) are no more! And Gauss hits Void Shields for officially now!
You can still put the god shackle on a cryptek outside of the conclave, in a CAD or something.
True. Though that's a very specific list, I kind of miss having the option of a "plug and play" mini-deathstar formation.
Definitely looking forward to the actual Necron FAQ as it comes out, though. I didn't keep up with the AoS stuff, did they do this same thing where they did main rules first and then army stuff? How long should we expect to wait?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well the FAQ fixed up Praetorians. Now I just need the firing arc for the Tesla Spheres and I'm set for the most part.
For the record, the hit to grenades means Stalkers don't die in combat. Ever.
Except, you know, to Powerfists. Or Wraithknights. Or Thunderhammers. Or Warscythes. Or Powerklaws. Or a meltabomb that Explodes. Or Monstrous Creatures.
Debilitate wrote: Does anyone want to talk about the elephant in the room that is Ghost Arks carting around warriors getting boned?
Meh, I'm surprised anyone allowed it the other way around anyway, as far as Jinking + not snap firing troops inside went, just didn't make sense. Ship is jumping around so much that it can't shoot straight, but the dudes inside are obviously fine. In my book, Ghost Arks are still in the same spot. Pretty ok, but overall non-superheavy vehicles are just too easy to kill right now. The only ones that really "work" from a competitive sense are drop pods and free Bat Company stuff. And flyers, in some cases.
Yeah, it sucks, but They won't get used any more or less than they were, imo.
So Just got a look at our flyers... and well I don't know what I was expecting, but I suppose I should get used to disappointment. Fast(ish) but suck at maneuvers, no changes to the death ray, and the formation is merely ok because we don't have any amazing vehicles (though PE for enemy HQ is amusing).
We can't taxi other armies vehicles since we don't have any battle brothers, so we are dropping off stalkers, monoliths, maybe an ob, or maybe a ark. I think it might work with living tomb, so you could pull of some clever deep strike shenanigans, but that's an insane amount of points.
Requizen wrote:Yeah, way too expensive imo. Would be cool for large point fun games, but no way something like that becomes a normal thing in the meta.
What specifically do the new rules (Combat Role, Pursuit, Agility) do? We lost Skyfire, right? Did we get anything in return?
Fighters get optional skyfire with a -1 penalty to ground targets (some bonuses in dogfight phase) Attack flyers which all your necron flyers are (have other modifiers) Bombers which dont apply to you .. (cant dogfight pretty sure)
Anpu-adom wrote:Did I read that template weapons can hit zooming flyers? If so, then that's a point in favor of the Death Scythes, particularly with Ignores Cover.
So it is weird... fighters have optional skyfire.. but so far no rule pictures show whether or not the other flyers still have skyfire or not... and this book clearly says it replaces the rules in the BRB... so my initial guesstimate is that the attack flyers and bombers DO NOT have skyfire on the table top.... I could be wrong though.
*EDIT* IMO .. if attack flyers and bombers do not have skyfire then fighters should have to snapfire at ground targets. Force their role as air to air just like attack/bomber forces to ground targets.
You can see in this image that it specifically talks about skyfire for a fighter.. so far no other rules show whether or not the other types have it or don't.
@RequizenMade, I think we got boned, jk, kinnda. The new formation is so so, if we had amazing vehicles it would be great, If we had battle brothers with amazing vehicles it would be better, but as the most likely thing to get deployed is an Ob, it's really so-so. We also get to re-roll ones to wound rolls against units with HQ models in it, which pretty much guarantees wounds with the death ray. Of course since Invis is being handed out like candy, and 3++ is more common than belly buttons in deathstars, I imagine it's going to make zero difference. Which is too bad because I think our flyers look cool, and I have two of them. Outside of using them to soften up my list for friendly games I don't expect to get much use out of them.
Grimgold wrote: @RequizenMade, I think we got boned, jk, kinnda. The new formation is so so, if we had amazing vehicles it would be great, If we had battle brothers with amazing vehicles it would be better, but as the most likely thing to get deployed is an Ob, it's really so-so. We also get to re-roll ones to wound rolls against units with HQ models in it, which pretty much guarantees wounds with the death ray. Of course since Invis is being handed out like candy, and 3++ is more common than belly buttons in deathstars, I imagine it's going to make zero difference. Which is too bad because I think our flyers look cool, and I have two of them. Outside of using them to soften up my list for friendly games I don't expect to get much use out of them.
I think dark eldar got the best formation... but Eldar's is neat (i play Iyanden so i usually have a hemlock for fluff reasons)
Yes cause the Eldar needed more awesome, though it's hard to imagine them spending points on aircraft when their ground forces are so much stronger. The real winner appears to marines.
After looking more closely, I might use 2 Night Scythes to get the pattern bonus, but yeah nothing that makes me want to use them any more than I currently do.
Oh well, nearly done with my Renegade/Necron Knight conversion, which is for sure gonna be effective.
Requizen wrote: After looking more closely, I might use 2 Night Scythes to get the pattern bonus, but yeah nothing that makes me want to use them any more than I currently do.
Oh well, nearly done with my Renegade/Necron Knight conversion, which is for sure gonna be effective.
That is honestly how I feel about the flyer book in general from what I have seen.
It adds a little extra intrigue, but it is not over the top OP.
Here is my question though. The flyer datasheets are a replacement for those we have.. which have in their slate the rules to run a wing. I am assuming this means that if i have a flyer in a formation, I can bring it in my formation as a wing? Thusly, benefiting from both the formation bonuses and possible attack patterns?
That was my understanding. When I was playing around with it I took a doom bringer flight, and the night scythe as a dedicated transport for a Lych star. which would have given it everliving, cacophony, in addition to the formation and flight special rules.
krodarklorr wrote: So, skimming over the last few pages that I've missed, let me see if I have this right.
Conclave of the Burning One is useless now.
Not useless, just not an all in one package. Still worth if you're planning on having another Cryptek to hold the God Shackle. If you're not, you have to choose whether to drop the Veil or the Solar Staff. I think dropping the Staff is... moderately less worse? You still have T8 lots of wounds and invulns + RP/FNP on everything. So... you still get screwed against some things (like Eldar, but what's new?) but even without the one turn invis you're actually pretty tough. Definitely hurts it, though. I might consider switching the Nightbringer for the Deceiver, go a bit more shooty and focus less on getting into that 12" bubble.
We've got the Sentry Pylon with Gauss from Forge World. If this books marks a sudden surge in Flyers, they might actually be worthwhile. Currently, though, I'd hold off.
Oh, and the Super Heavy Pylon. Yes, I'm still salty.
krodarklorr wrote: Ghost Arks jinking is now terrible and even more-so not worth taking.
Rod Praetorians are confirmed to work the way that actually makes sense. Still no word as to whether or not they can actually use their Dedicated Transport. Not much specifically affects us.
krodarklorr wrote: So, skimming over the last few pages that I've missed, let me see if I have this right.
Conclave of the Burning One is useless now.
Not useless, just not an all in one package. Still worth if you're planning on having another Cryptek to hold the God Shackle. If you're not, you have to choose whether to drop the Veil or the Solar Staff. I think dropping the Staff is... moderately less worse? You still have T8 lots of wounds and invulns + RP/FNP on everything. So... you still get screwed against some things (like Eldar, but what's new?) but even without the one turn invis you're actually pretty tough. Definitely hurts it, though. I might consider switching the Nightbringer for the Deceiver, go a bit more shooty and focus less on getting into that 12" bubble.
We've got the Sentry Pylon with Gauss from Forge World. If this books marks a sudden surge in Flyers, they might actually be worthwhile. Currently, though, I'd hold off.
Oh, and the Super Heavy Pylon. Yes, I'm still salty.
krodarklorr wrote: Ghost Arks jinking is now terrible and even more-so not worth taking.
Rod Praetorians are confirmed to work the way that actually makes sense. Still no word as to whether or not they can actually use their Dedicated Transport. Not much specifically affects us.
Oh, I did forget the whole Lance ignoring Quantum Shielding now. Because reasons.
Eh, I'm fine with it. It does simplify things, as before the interaction was a little weird, and fluff wise it does make sense that an Eldar weapon would counter a necron defensive system, as the Eldar were created to fight necrons.
Some proper psychic defenses would be nice though. Bring back pariahs and give us null fields, not that wimpy gloom prism nonsense.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Eh, I'm fine with it. It does simplify things, as before the interaction was a little weird, and fluff wise it does make sense that an Eldar weapon would counter a necron defensive system, as the Eldar were created to fight necrons.
Some proper psychic defenses would be nice though. Bring back pariahs and give us null fields, not that wimpy gloom prism nonsense.
Yes, Eldar were created to fight Necrons. Necrons are also supposed to have the most technologically crazy and advanced weapons and wargear. But yet Eldar beat them again on that.
That's how war evolves. Your enemy makes something, you make something to counter it. That's why Necrons need anti-psy to counter the Eldar's psy, just as Eldar lances counter our armor.
Tesla ignoring holofields would be nice too; Necrons had lightning weapons that could ignore holofields in BFG, as the bolts would be attracted to the ship's hull.
Being able to ignore Hard to Hit would be handy as well, because flying things don't like lightning.
All that said, Eldar really didn't another buff. The lance buff wouldn't be so bad if Eldar weren't already stupidly strong.
I get it, our army's shtick is that it is super durable. Yet, it seems that our weapons that "atomize matter that it touches" are significantly underpowered. How about it actually being useful against infantry armor, rather than only really mattering against high toughness?
Anpu-adom wrote: I get it, our army's shtick is that it is super durable. Yet, it seems that our weapons that "atomize matter that it touches" are significantly underpowered. How about it actually being useful against infantry armor, rather than only really mattering against high toughness?
Honestly, I think it should have a similar effect of Bladestorm.
Sharing gimmicks isn't something I'm a fan of. -1 modifier to saves would be different enough, that's immediately applied whenever you wound and is used for AP (but does not carry over across attacks. Basically the same as the armor modifier rule from WHFB). Should help a bit against heavy infantry, which is something necrons don't have that much of an answer to. Unless you want to pay premium prices, that is. I always thought the 5th ed entropic mechanic was neat.
While these changes aren't enough to relegate us to bottom tier, they're definitely not helping us for the most part.
I doubt the codex specific FAQs will be all that earth shattering, either.
At this point, the only way I see them trying to come up with a fix for how they just kind screwed our fliers over would be releasing a supplement (Including: Rules to give Annihilation Barges skyfire? Some sort of new flyer? (small size combi-kit. build a fighter or an assault transport, something we're sorely lacking)... and while I'm dreaming: The return of the Harbingers? Maybe the reintroduction of the Pariahs? A new named C'Tan shard? (the Burning One would make the most sense, but I'd love to see the Void Dragon make an appearance, giving us our own FMC equivilent).)
skoffs wrote: While these changes aren't enough to relegate us to bottom tier, they're definitely not helping us for the most part.
I doubt the codex specific FAQs will be all that earth shattering, either.
At this point, the only way I see them trying to come up with a fix for how they just kind screwed our fliers over would be releasing a supplement (Including: Rules to give Annihilation Barges skyfire? Some sort of new flyer? (small size combi-kit. build a fighter or an assault transport, something we're sorely lacking)... and while I'm dreaming: The return of the Harbingers? Maybe the reintroduction of the Pariahs? A new named C'Tan shard? (the Burning One would make the most sense, but I'd love to see the Void Dragon make an appearance, giving us our own FMC equivilent).)
Nothing lately particularly hurts us. The only thing that "nerfs" us in the FAQs is the Ghost Ark thing, and I guess Lance/QS if you were playing it at 12 previously (though I don't know anyone who allowed that).
Flyers losing Skyfire sucks a bit, but I don't bring flyers to snipe other flyers. I bring Night Scythes to transport my dudes and make short work of MSU on the ground. I don't bring Doom Scythes because they're pretty terrible. The only thing it really affects is the odd time where I was able to burn down a Flyrant, but that's pretty rare in my experience, and I've had a lot of success just dropping 10 Warriors underneath one and just Rapid Firing up into it, which still works.
I don't see any new Necron releases for a while, personally. I could be surprised, but the theme lately has been to use the Warzone books to bring out of date books into line with formations and MFDs, which we already have. If anything, I expect IA12 to get updated sooner than an actual GW Necron release.
So a bit of advice. I'm going up against eldar here soon, (corsair most likely) and i'm looking at coming up with a pretty strong list, as we're brining competitive stuff. Usually I tend towards more fluff-based lists myself. I'm currently looking at standard decurion, as I hate deathstars, and want to avoid the orikanstar I'm seeing a lot of lists run.
overlord with warscythe, PS, conflagurator (possibly zandreck, I need the reserves support)
2x10 warriors, each with night scythe
1x10 immortals, NS
DL with phase shifter, warscythe, possibly conflagurator if I go zandreck.
DL runs with one of the destroyer groups until they get too close then breaks off, the OL/zandreck runs with the immortals.
Pretty standard list, but I don't want any arks, not with the FAQ making them 105 pt av 11 rhinos against lances, and the jink rules. At the same time, the list seems to lack offensive firepower, though I'm reasonably certain of keeping my guys alive with the decurion. any suggestions (if the list is a few points over, I will do some wargear tweaking)
Sorry bro, your only hope is to take orikanstar in a scythe. Every time I play against eldar I get raped in the psychic phase. I'd also recommend against the dcult unless you're sure that he's going to be bringing a lot of av. It's too point heavy, and once the av is gone it's next to useless for killing his pskyers. Tomb blades are good for their ignore cover, you should be able to do some work with those. I've been trying to work in praets but have been struggling with their measly 12 inch range. I've been having good luck running a tricked out dlord with my wraiths, fwiw.
Veryance wrote: Sorry bro, your only hope is to take orikanstar in a scythe. Every time I play against eldar I get raped in the psychic phase. I'd also recommend against the dcult unless you're sure that he's going to be bringing a lot of av. It's too point heavy, and once the av is gone it's next to useless for killing his pskyers. Tomb blades are good for their ignore cover, you should be able to do some work with those. I've been trying to work in praets but have been struggling with their measly 12 inch range. I've been having good luck running a tricked out dlord with my wraiths, fwiw.
I'm going against corsair eldar, not craftworld. a lot less psykers. I've considered trying the dlord with the wraiths, I just don't know, I know that the new FAQ cements that we can use the assault move, but it still seems like it would end up with the unit staggered back.
But I'd rather lose than use a deathstar, in all honesty. I hate them, I feel they are just wrong in 40k. Personal opinion though, and I don't intend to force it as fact.
Disagree. Speaking from many games of experience, Orikanstar is actually pretty garbage against Eldar, depending on what they bring. If it's jetbike/Warp Spider spam with WKs, it basically does nothing. Everything is too fast and the only thing you can hope to kill is the WK since it might actually get into combat with you, but then it comes down to luck that you can take it down before it stomps you. Bikes and Spyders/Hawks will never ever ever be in range for you to charge unless you really outmaneuver them, and even then it'll be killing off only 3-6 models at a time. Poor use of deathstar.
MSU shooting with speed is much better, or the Wraith + Orikan + Veil combo that some people run. Destroyer Cult is still good against non-vehicles. AP3 with rerolling everything except 2s to hit is great, and you can Deep Strike them if you know he's gonna play keep-away. It's relatively MSU so losing one doesn't hurt that much, and in a Decurion they're bloody indestructible except against D.
Wraiths are still relatively fine, they just can't be the only thing your army relies on. I've done 15-18 Wraith lists before and they all just get chunked down before they get somewhere. Splitting up threats while also having a Wraith brick with DLord is solid, just don't go overboard. In fact, I generally run my Wraiths only 3 Whip Coils because I know at least 1 or 2 of them is going to die before they get there.
Might suggest splitting your Tomb Blades up to make three units. Better chance of taking objectives.
If you do want to keep them 2x5, perhaps consider doing them 3x Gauss / 2x Beamers in each unit, rather than 5 of one and 5 of the other. More versatile that way.
Also, yes to Wraiths. Speed and survivability are premium in this game. They're worth it, even if not attaching a D.Lord.
And I don't know what that other guy was talking about with Destroyers not being good against eldar. You'll melt through almost everything's armor with all but guaranteed wounds.
Praetorians are good, but yeah, a little tricky to use. With Destroyers on the field you're already going to be fine for ignoring armor, so AP2 Rods might be overkill. If you take Wraiths+D.Lord you would also be good for a rending CC unit, making Praets a little obsolete.
One thing that might be worth considering would be Deathmarks. If he's playing with reserves or MCs/GCs, this is a good slap in the face.
skoffs wrote: Might suggest splitting your Tomb Blades up to make three units. Better chance of taking objectives.
If you do want to keep them 2x5, perhaps consider doing them 3x Gauss / 2x Beamers in each unit, rather than 5 of one and 5 of the other. More versatile that way.
Also, yes to Wraiths. Speed and survivability are premium in this game. They're worth it, even if not attaching a D.Lord.
And I don't know what that other guy was talking about with Destroyers not being good against eldar. You'll melt through almost everything's armor with all but guaranteed wounds.
Praetorians are good, but yeah, a little tricky to use. With Destroyers on the field you're already going to be fine for ignoring armor, so AP2 Rods might be overkill. If you take Wraiths+D.Lord you would also be good for a rending CC unit, making Praets a little obsolete.
One thing that might be worth considering would be Deathmarks. If he's playing with reserves or MCs/GCs, this is a good slap in the face.
I tend to agree in the Praetorians. Ap2 is overkill against most eldar. Wraiths I've dismissed due to the reckless abandon rule corsairs have. Any shooting (even overwatch) they can move 6 +1d6 away, and have psykers who can force the 1d6 to auto 6. So they are functually immune to charges unless at the corner of the board.
Tomb blades are good, wraiths are solid but scatbikes will melt them all the same.
Not sure about corsairs, but i'm pretty sure that Eldar have no interceptor. anyhing that can deepstrike into range is good.
Destroyers/Praets have natural deepstrike.
Using them and deathmarks can do a lot of damage, deathmarks also have the perk of being our best unit for taking on a GMC, doing ~5 wounds to a wraithknight without cover (before FNP) if they drop in rapid fire.
Just to chime in agreement with Skoffs, destroyers will melt anything with a 3+ and up save, because Extermination protocols are crazy good. The only thing they are not great against is GMCs, and a cult can still drop a wraith knight in two turns. Deathmarks will drown a GMC in wounds, so they are a natural fit for that role.
Also tomb blades range from good to godly depending on who you are fighting. Against the tau they eat pathfinders for breakfast, and without pathfinders and their marker lights much of the Taus most egregious cheese is pretty thoroughly grated. AP 4 and ignores cover means any wounds will kill, and you wound on a 2+ with twin linked rapid fire to hit. The worst part about them is putting them together.
Having decided to update my much neglected since the 7th edition update came about and ruined my army, I was wondering what exactly are our options against Flyers these days are? I think the only unit I don't have barring FW is the Obelisk, and I don't have the Flyer uodate book. I am to understand our flyers do not have skyfire anymore, so what exacty do we do?
My old list used 2 night scythes in the judicator battalion as anti air but seeing as that isn't an option anymore, I can feasible drop those I suppose.
Do we just ignore flyers these days and focus on the ground war while others spend points planning for the paper/rock/scissors air war?
BrotherGecko wrote: Having decided to update my much neglected since the 7th edition update came about and ruined my army, I was wondering what exactly are our options against Flyers these days are? I think the only unit I don't have barring FW is the Obelisk, and I don't have the Flyer uodate book. I am to understand our flyers do not have skyfire anymore, so what exacty do we do?
My old list used 2 night scythes in the judicator battalion as anti air but seeing as that isn't an option anymore, I can feasible drop those I suppose.
Do we just ignore flyers these days and focus on the ground war while others spend points planning for the paper/rock/scissors air war?
The air book is optional, but if you play with it, then yes, neither of the flyers have skyfire anymore.
I broke down and bought an Aegis Defense line just to have a Quad gun to shoot with. Park an Overlord or Tomb Blade (with ignore cover) and get a couple shots off at least.
From what I've seen the book specifically says it replaces Flyer rules making it non-optional....even if in no way will I buy that book without it having a huge discount lol.
I feel that whether you bring anti-air or not hasn't changed with DftS - if your meta has lots of flyers, you were probably bringing more than Night Scythes before. If you were previously just relying on them for your anti-air, you might want to consider bringing something like said and Aegis Line or, if you're playing a CAD, some Sentry Pylons.
Similarly, if you were bringing Night Scythes before in general, losing Skyfire isn't that big of a deal and you can still take them for the same role. They're still excellent (albeit a bit expensive) transports, and they do lots of damage to light targets on the ground. That hasn't changed. Yes, there is a slight chance that they get killed in Dogfighting, so you have to weigh that, but from what I've heard most people aren't even interested in using it and many events have already said that they're going to ignore it but use the other rules from the book.
I don't think DftS is motivating people to bring Flyers where they weren't before. Maybe some people will try to mind-game it and bring flyers for the reserve bonus since they think most people won't bring their own, but I think that's really just a fringe case.
tl;dr - game doesn't change much for us unless you were only bringing Scythes for anti-air and/or your meta is lousy with flyers.
BrotherGecko wrote: From what I've seen the book specifically says it replaces Flyer rules making it non-optional
If you use the book, then yes, you must go by the new rules... but here's the thing: you don't need to use the book.
GW themselves said it is an optional supplement.
Besides, the Necron FAQ draft should be out soon enough. For all we know they're going to errata the Night Scythe... and if they don't, if enough people comment on the FB page entry along the lines of "So, what, the Necrons now have ZERO skyfire options in the codex??" they'll probably have to address it in the final draft.
While I understand the complaint about losing a 'Skyfire' option, it's also makes me want to say 'So What?'. Even with all the changes, I still haven't really seen a flyer to be worried about or have to deal with. Most of the ones that are a threat, it's more for what they are carrying, and not the flyer themselves, and they usually survive long enough to drop off their payload. Even then, it's been infinitely easier to deal with them once they're on the ground, but that's just my opinion. I can't think of a game where I've had no ground targets to deal with first before even worrying about any flyers. We still have Mysterious Objectives, provided you're actually playing with them. More often than not, it's more about 'How are Flyers going to deal with us?'
If we're going to get into wishful thinking though, I'd really like to see Tomb Blades get an anti-flyer role. Since that's really what their fluff says.
As for other things with the FAQ. The Praetorian thing got cleared up. Killing that additional 1-2 models per game on Overwatch is going to make huge impact on all our games. Like the Flyer rules, the Transport for Praetorians would be nice to have an answer on, but I still can't think of a use for it on the game play side. It would only really be to deliver the Praetorians in a position where they're not bunched up. Anything over the 24" though and they're snapfiring, and if you're going for something backfield you're probably better off Deep Striking anyhow. In any other situation, I see Lychguard in a Nightscythe being a better option. So probably won't be using it, even if we get it. (sidenote: I've yet to meet a player that hasn't allowed me to do it if I wanted to.)
The Ghost Ark thing doesn't really bother me, since I stopped running them a long time ago. While I understand the frustration for those who relied on the tactic, it's harder to not feel sorry for the Dark Eldar. I TRULY feel bad for them, since that was one of their mainstay tactics. Now it's just a twin-linked BS1 splinter boat if you can get them to 'jink'. I think we'll be just fine in comparison.
ON the upside, Flayed Ones got a bit of a boost that made me super happy. Infiltrate is back to being optional. We're not forced to use Infiltrate against armies that are in our face turn 1. No more do I have to sit around with Drop Pod Marines, 2" from my Flayed Ones with 2 turns of Flamers, or those irritating 'Nope, you're not going to infiltrate here' Inquisitor allies. While it is funny that we still can't start an IC in the unit, this makes it a bit easier if that's something a Necron player wants to try.
Well the loss of skyfire also hurts when combating FMCs also don't forget. While I agree that flyers are not too powerful in most instances and if we were to avoid them at least once and a while we will screw the guy that took a fighter lol. However, its the flyrants, and greater daemons (there are more I assume) that we don't want just having a run of the board. Not sure I'm happy that a Bloodthirster is more likely than not to make it into combat against my army.
BrotherGecko wrote: Well the loss of skyfire also hurts when combating FMCs also don't forget. While I agree that flyers are not too powerful in most instances and if we were to avoid them at least once and a while we will screw the guy that took a fighter lol. However, its the flyrants, and greater daemons (there are more I assume) that we don't want just having a run of the board. Not sure I'm happy that a Bloodthirster is more likely than not to make it into combat against my army.
Why are those a threat? Even if they were, how were they being killed with the existing 'Skyfire' units? They can't score anything until they land, so isn't NOT shooting them the preferred tactic? Grounding them only leaves them free to charge on their turn? If you don't shoot them, they can't charge because they have to switch modes, so we get a full turn of shooting them anyways.
I'm not trying to sound overconfident, my experience against them is limited. I've never seen more than 2 Flyrants, and they've never done anything more than fly around and harass the units on the ground. Bloodthirsters have been mean, but even with Relentless Warriors, we have phenomenal board control in keeping him where we want anyways. I feel like I'm missing something, because the 'how do you deal with FMC's' constantly comes up, especially when people see my lists. It's just never been an issue.
Funny enough the most I've seen is 4 flyrants with an allied bloodthrister...choose to just not play him on principle lol. I forget how he built his list but knowing this individual cheating is a possibility.
Keep in mind I have zero games with 7th necrons but with 6th I remember having some difficult games up against heavy flyrant and Lords of Change.
BrotherGecko wrote: Well the loss of skyfire also hurts when combating FMCs also don't forget
While that's true, were our Night Scythes really winning the game against FMCs? Against most, you get one good round of shooting before they get out of your firing arc and/or kill the Scythe. Losing Skyfire hurts, but we weren't known for being an army that dominated the skies anyway. At least, not since the good(?) old days of 6th with 7 Night Scythes in a list.
BrotherGecko wrote: Not sure I'm happy that a Bloodthirster is more likely than not to make it into combat against my army.
Any BT that makes it into combat with your army probably isn't flying, so Skyfire won't help anyway. They have to be on the ground to charge, any Chaos player who puts their BT into Swooping mode voluntarily is either desperate to keep him alive or doing it wrong.
In my experience, 3 or 4 flyrants are not a threat until they land. They simply can't chew thru our units with their shooting because we have armour saves AND RP saves against them. Control the ground and let them flutter around. Prepare to light them up when they land.
Okay, at least I'm not the only one. I keep seeing comments everywhere (not just here) that talk about lack of Skyfire both pre and post FAQ. Even with the new DftS book, we have a variety of more threats, but nothing that we need or address, or would care to do anything about.
Hi guys! I figure this would be a good thread to start in instead of making a brand new one, but I just acquired what basically amounts to a starter Decurion (I think). It's got:
Overlord w/ Scythe
50 warriors
3 tomb blades w/ gauss
5 lychguard w/ sword and board
5 immortals w/ gauss
10 death marks for the auxiliary
I'm going to start playing it at the 1000 point mark to get used to it before I start adding anything, but I was wondering how you guys feel about death marks in general. Also, considering my LGS is going to be using DFTS, is there viability in running an ADL with necrons? My initial thought is to put the overlord in the unit of lychguard, but could there be something better? This is going to be my first experience with necrons, as I haven't played with or against them before, so any tips are greatly appreciated!
BossJakadakk wrote: Hi guys! I figure this would be a good thread to start in instead of making a brand new one,
Spoiler:
but I just acquired what basically amounts to a starter Decurion (I think). It's got:
Overlord w/ Scythe
50 warriors
3 tomb blades w/ gauss
5 lychguard w/ sword and board
5 immortals w/ gauss
10 death marks for the auxiliary
I'm going to start playing it at the 1000 point mark to get used to it before I start adding anything, but I was wondering how you guys feel about death marks in general. Also, considering my LGS is going to be using DFTS, is there viability in running an ADL with necrons? My initial thought is to put the overlord in the unit of lychguard, but could there be something better? This is going to be my first experience with necrons, as I haven't played with or against them before, so any tips are greatly appreciated!
The general tactics thread is typically not the best place to post lists.
You really would be better starting a new thread rather than jumping in the middle of a topic with something unrelated.
I might even suggest posting on the army list board instead.
Being said, Deathmarks still have their role. If you know you're going to be facing MCs/GCs/drop pods, they can be worth taking.
If you're going to be taking Lychguard, it's usually best to have some role in mind for them. Something more than bodyguards for an Overlord, anyway.
BossJakadakk wrote: Hi guys! I figure this would be a good thread to start in instead of making a brand new one,
Spoiler:
but I just acquired what basically amounts to a starter Decurion (I think). It's got:
Overlord w/ Scythe
50 warriors
3 tomb blades w/ gauss
5 lychguard w/ sword and board
5 immortals w/ gauss
10 death marks for the auxiliary
I'm going to start playing it at the 1000 point mark to get used to it before I start adding anything, but I was wondering how you guys feel about death marks in general. Also, considering my LGS is going to be using DFTS, is there viability in running an ADL with necrons? My initial thought is to put the overlord in the unit of lychguard, but could there be something better? This is going to be my first experience with necrons, as I haven't played with or against them before, so any tips are greatly appreciated!
The general tactics thread is typically not the best place to post lists.
You really would be better starting a new thread rather than jumping in the middle of a topic with something unrelated.
I might even suggest posting on the army list board instead.
Being said, Deathmarks still have their role. If you know you're going to be facing MCs/GCs/drop pods, they can be worth taking.
If you're going to be taking Lychguard, it's usually best to have some role in mind for them. Something more than bodyguards for an Overlord, anyway.
Ah, sorry. I haven't made a list yet, that's just what I'm getting in the lot, but I'll write a quick one and do that for sure, thanks
BossJakadakk wrote: Hi guys! I figure this would be a good thread to start in instead of making a brand new one, but I just acquired what basically amounts to a starter Decurion (I think). It's got:
Overlord w/ Scythe
50 warriors
3 tomb blades w/ gauss
5 lychguard w/ sword and board
5 immortals w/ gauss
10 death marks for the auxiliary
I'm going to start playing it at the 1000 point mark to get used to it before I start adding anything, but I was wondering how you guys feel about death marks in general. Also, considering my LGS is going to be using DFTS, is there viability in running an ADL with necrons? My initial thought is to put the overlord in the unit of lychguard, but could there be something better? This is going to be my first experience with necrons, as I haven't played with or against them before, so any tips are greatly appreciated!
Dang that's a lot of Warriors. But honestly, in a Decurion they're almost too durable against most armies for being only 13 points.
Deathmarks are fine. They're not amazing against everything, but they're ok. They excel against Drop Pods, and they provide a decent punch against high Tough units by putting out a lot of bullets. Their main use other than that is to just Deep Strike around the board, getting map pressure and putting medium fire on multiple targets.
5 Lychguard with one IC isn't going to be much but a fire magnet, honestly. Put em in a Scythe and they get a bit better, though, since you can put them somewhere on the board as a hard point that requires response. Don't walk them by any means.
Aegis Line really depends. By itself, it's relatively unnecessary. We don't want to camp in our DZ, we like moving into the midfield. But, if your meta is rotten with Flyers, maybe getting that Interceptor Skyfire is a good idea. Overlords are BS5, so they control it really well, and you can do a lot worse than a camping unit of Warriors and an Overlord holding down a point. But, if you're playing Decurion as you say, then you can't bring one.
Long time lurker, first time poster, small handful of games under my belt.
I'm curious as to what other players are doing with their...
...Decurion Tomb Blades. Min squads of 3, better'ish damage potential with beamers vs. gauss jink shooting? Or do you mostly always go with gauss. (Tesla Blades hold little to no interest right now) Or combine Blade squads to something bigger with gauss?
...Harvest Spyder. Stock? In your experience do they last long enough to spend the extra points on a Prism or Beamer.
Lastly has anyone ever used a Necron Allied Detachment? From what I understand, and I'm certain I'll be told differently if I'm wrong, ITC tournament rules allow for same faction AD's. Idea is to bring in another IC (yes with an 85 point Immortals tax) to add to a Veiled Overlord/Lychguard unit. Thinking of a Lord (Obyron maybe) with at least a warscythe and other mix-and-match item goodness with the Overlord. Obviously not a Royal Court deathstar, but wondering if a 5-man ObSec unit and IC totaling around the 150-210 point mark is worth it instead of additional Blades, transport Scythes, etc.
Tomb Blades: Typically run 2x 3 (Gauss, Scopes, Shields), usually just to go objective grabbing/cause general nuisance.
Sometimes I like to give one of them a Beamer, just so I have some options.
But yeah, no Tesla anymore.
Spyder: Typically stock, but if you know you're going to be facing a lot of witchfire or hordes, the Gloom P. or Beamer's not a bad idea.
Necrons allied with Necrons: I dunno ... just feels ThatGuy-ish.
I wouldn't do it, myself, but if the tournament you're playing in allows it, anyone with a Veil + Immortals wouldn't be a bad idea for taking Objectives. (Cryptek w/ Veil & Chrono + 5x Immortals = 200 points of "go on, I dare you to waste your shots").
For Deathstar considerations, definitely Orikan to add to a Lychguard ball with your Decurion combat equipped Warlord w/ Veil. Obyron isn't a bad second choice for movement versatility, but if you add both, you might as well just replace the Allied Immortals with an Overlord and go the Royal Court route.
Deathmarks are fine. They're not amazing against everything, but they're ok. They excel against Drop Pods, and they provide a decent punch against high Tough units by putting out a lot of bullets. Their main use other than that is to just Deep Strike around the board, getting map pressure and putting medium fire on multiple targets.
Can someone explain To me how deathmarks work against drop pods?
Depending on my mood I'll drop two warriors and change the immortals to dispersion shields and power weapons. As for adding an allied command structure, it's done a fair amount to get forge world units into the army, but our strength isn't really our HQ, and two veils is less useful than one would think, since it keeps our HQ out of CC which is really the only area they don't suck in. Maybe if you were doing a royal court deep striking gun line where you had six or seven staffs of light, deep struck in on turn two, veiled on turn three and then veiled again on turn 4.
As for how deathmarks work against drop pods, they can counter deep strike on the opponents turn, which means they will catch the drop pod unit out in the open and before they can put up any buffs like invis or what not. They wound on a 2+ on the turn they deep strike in, and have rapid fire sniper rifles, so a 6 to wound is always ap 2. So if you scatter well it's possible for them to hit way above their weight and drop units like a librarius conclave before they have a chance to be a problem. Add a destroyer lord in to give them PE to add to their kick. The issue with them is they are fantastic on the turn they arrive, but are middling to poor afterwards. So they are seen as a gamble.
Luckily they're not break the bank expensive, and if you add the Destroyer Lord to them you don't have to worry so much about retaliation the next turn as your opponent will be too concerned with the borderline monstrous creature barreling down at his hopefully severely injured unit that he may forget all about them, letting your Deathmarks slink off to somewhere more safe to take pot shot at things for the rest of the game.
So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
Spoiler:
In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
Didn't even think of that, but 45 degrees is abysmal, especially when combined with a 22.5 horizontal arc. Of course given the physical weapons on the obelisk one wonders where one traces that arc from.
If it's from the little plate things on the balls (about 8 or so inches off of the ground) then it can only fire at units 9 inches away from it, because trigonometry is a bitch like that. Given that is has a 24 inch range, that seems more than a tad silly. However we better get that question in before the Necron FAQ, Because if they have 360 arcs then it becomes a serious presence on the board.
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
Spoiler:
In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
No FAQ needed on this issue. Just people need to not be rules lawyers.
I just shoot the thing that is obviously the Tesla Sphere. It's free to rotate around it's mountings per the rules. This allows the Obelisk to shoot 3 of its Tesla Spheres at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Remember, you shoot an autocannon on a Predator, not an auto-turret. The weapon on the Obelisk is a sphere. And that sphere rotates around its encasing, per the rules.
Yup. You called it that I would call you out on your BS and failure to treat the Tesla Sphere as a sphere. And you called it that I would have ample rules backing supporting my position. So good job calling that.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to point to the part of the Obelisk that represents the Tesla Sphere if it's not the spheres that are encased on its side. Waiting . . .
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
Spoiler:
In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
No FAQ needed on this issue. Just people need to not be rules lawyers.
I just shoot the thing that is obviously the Tesla Sphere. It's free to rotate around it's encasing per the rules. This allows the Obelisk to shoot 3 of its Tesla Spheres at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Remember, you shoot an autocannon on a Predator, not an auto-turret. The weapon on the Obelisk is a sphere. And that sphere rotates around its encasing, per the rules.
Assembling the model as shown in its instructions is doesn't let the sphere move or pivot. It is a fixed placement. Nor is it an entire sphere and it does not rotate at all on the model.
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
Spoiler:
In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
No FAQ needed on this issue. Just people need to not be rules lawyers.
I just shoot the thing that is obviously the Tesla Sphere. It's free to rotate around it's encasing per the rules. This allows the Obelisk to shoot 3 of its Tesla Spheres at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Remember, you shoot an autocannon on a Predator, not an auto-turret. The weapon on the Obelisk is a sphere. And that sphere rotates around its encasing, per the rules.
Assembling the model as shown in its instructions is doesn't let the sphere move or pivot. It is a fixed placement. Nor is it an entire sphere and it does not rotate at all on the model.
Yup and as I pointed out the rules allow you to imagine rotating around even if you physically cannot based on its assembly. Them's the rules.
You are reading the rules I am posting, correct?
Simply read the rules I posted. It's pretty darn clear.
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
Spoiler:
In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
No FAQ needed on this issue. Just people need to not be rules lawyers.
I just shoot the thing that is obviously the Tesla Sphere. It's free to rotate around it's encasing per the rules. This allows the Obelisk to shoot 3 of its Tesla Spheres at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Remember, you shoot an autocannon on a Predator, not an auto-turret. The weapon on the Obelisk is a sphere. And that sphere rotates around its encasing, per the rules.
Assembling the model as shown in its instructions is doesn't let the sphere move or pivot. It is a fixed placement. Nor is it an entire sphere and it does not rotate at all on the model.
Yup and as I pointed out the rules allow you to imagine rotating around even if you physically cannot based on its assembly. Them's the rules.
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
Spoiler:
In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
No FAQ needed on this issue. Just people need to not be rules lawyers.
I just shoot the thing that is obviously the Tesla Sphere. It's free to rotate around it's encasing per the rules. This allows the Obelisk to shoot 3 of its Tesla Spheres at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Remember, you shoot an autocannon on a Predator, not an auto-turret. The weapon on the Obelisk is a sphere. And that sphere rotates around its encasing, per the rules.
Assembling the model as shown in its instructions is doesn't let the sphere move or pivot. It is a fixed placement. Nor is it an entire sphere and it does not rotate at all on the model.
Yup and as I pointed out the rules allow you to imagine rotating around even if you physically cannot based on its assembly. Them's the rules.
You are reading the rules I am posting, correct?
Simply read the rules I posted. It's pretty darn clear.
players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings
Where is the barrel of the tesla sphere and what is it mounted to? A vertical rail. By the rules it can only go up can down not left and right. Its pretty darn clear.
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
Spoiler:
In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
No FAQ needed on this issue. Just people need to not be rules lawyers.
I just shoot the thing that is obviously the Tesla Sphere. It's free to rotate around it's encasing per the rules. This allows the Obelisk to shoot 3 of its Tesla Spheres at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Remember, you shoot an autocannon on a Predator, not an auto-turret. The weapon on the Obelisk is a sphere. And that sphere rotates around its encasing, per the rules.
Assembling the model as shown in its instructions is doesn't let the sphere move or pivot. It is a fixed placement. Nor is it an entire sphere and it does not rotate at all on the model.
Yup and as I pointed out the rules allow you to imagine rotating around even if you physically cannot based on its assembly. Them's the rules.
So all guns on all vehicles have 360 LoS then?
Nope. Only the ones that are spheres or turrets. In the case of both turrets and spheres the rules writers expect us to imagine how they rotate (based on how people with 6th grade education understand turrets and spheres to rotate). Turret isn't defined fully in the rules either. Sphere and turret are in the same boat.
The good news is that it's actually super easy to imagine how turret and sheres rotate, unless you are being a rules lawyer and intentionally defeating the obvious and the honest.
Still waiting for you to point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere,
Your failure to actually point to something on the model underscores the fact that you are being a rules lawyer and dodging the truth.
I will boldly and honestly point to the objects that look like spheres on the Obelisk as the Tesla Spheres.
players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings
Where is the barrel of the tesla sphere and what is it mounted to? A vertical rail. By the rules it can only go up can down not left and right. Its pretty darn clear.
First, kindly point to the actual Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to the spheres you see on the Obelisk. What are you pointing to?
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
[spoiler]In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
No FAQ needed on this issue. Just people need to not be rules lawyers.
I just shoot the thing that is obviously the Tesla Sphere. It's free to rotate around it's encasing per the rules. This allows the Obelisk to shoot 3 of its Tesla Spheres at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Remember, you shoot an autocannon on a Predator, not an auto-turret. The weapon on the Obelisk is a sphere. And that sphere rotates around its encasing, per the rules.
Assembling the model as shown in its instructions is doesn't let the sphere move or pivot. It is a fixed placement. Nor is it an entire sphere and it does not rotate at all on the model.
Yup and as I pointed out the rules allow you to imagine rotating around even if you physically cannot based on its assembly. Them's the rules.
So all guns on all vehicles have 360 LoS then?
Nope. Only the ones that are spheres or turrets. In the case of both turrets and spheres the rules writers expect us to imagine how they rotate. Turret isn't defined fully in the rules either. Sphere and turret are in the same boat.
The good news is that it's actually super easy to imagine how turret and sheres rotate, unless you are being a rules lawyer and intentionally defeating the obvious and the honest.
Still waiting for you to point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere,
Your failure to actually point to something on the model underscores the fact that you are being a rules lawyer and dodging the truth.
I will boldly and honestly point to the objects that look like spheres on the Obelisk as the Tesla Spheres.
[/spoiler]
Can we get a rules source that it only works on turrets and "spheres" and can you show us what the rules for sphere mounted weapons are, and what allows you to group turret and spheres together? page and paragraph please or else you have no case.
I am pointing to the spheres you see on the Obelisk. What are you pointing to?
The barrel on the end is the tesla sphere and what shooting with it is measured from. It is clearly mounted on a verticle rail that does not pivot or physically move. But it looks like the barrel is on a track that can move up and down that is the only thing that can be assumed since the sphere is not a full sphere.
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.
Spoiler:
In before Col_Impact argues ad nasium that it has 360 LoS because its called a Sphere even that has nothing to do with the rules
No FAQ needed on this issue. Just people need to not be rules lawyers.
I just shoot the thing that is obviously the Tesla Sphere. It's free to rotate around it's encasing per the rules. This allows the Obelisk to shoot 3 of its Tesla Spheres at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Remember, you shoot an autocannon on a Predator, not an auto-turret. The weapon on the Obelisk is a sphere. And that sphere rotates around its encasing, per the rules.
Assembling the model as shown in its instructions is doesn't let the sphere move or pivot. It is a fixed placement. Nor is it an entire sphere and it does not rotate at all on the model.
Yup and as I pointed out the rules allow you to imagine rotating around even if you physically cannot based on its assembly. Them's the rules.
So all guns on all vehicles have 360 LoS then?
Nope. Only the ones that are spheres or turrets. In the case of both turrets and spheres the rules writers expect us to imagine how they rotate. Turret isn't defined fully in the rules either. Sphere and turret are in the same boat.
The good news is that it's actually super easy to imagine how turret and sheres rotate, unless you are being a rules lawyer and intentionally defeating the obvious and the honest.
Still waiting for you to point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere,
Your failure to actually point to something on the model underscores the fact that you are being a rules lawyer and dodging the truth.
I will boldly and honestly point to the objects that look like spheres on the Obelisk as the Tesla Spheres.
Where in the rulebook do spheres get 360 LoS like turrets?
Where in the rulebook do spheres get 360 LoS like turrets?
I have pointed to the exact rulebook justification. I have nothing to hide. In this case the Obelisk gets the range of motion as imagined by an encased track ball as represented by the modeling of the Obelisk and this is justified 100% by the rules. Not exactly 360 degrees, but enough that 3 Tesla Spheres could be brought to bear against a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Still waiting for you to point to the part of the Obelisk that represents the Tesla Sphere. I am proud to say that I am pointing to spheres.
I am also still waiting for you to point to any actual rules. So far in this discussion I am the only one who is proud to actually be pointing to RULES.
Where in the rulebook do spheres get 360 LoS like turrets?
I have pointed to the exact rulebook justification. I have nothing to hide.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Literally says nothing about spheres. You claimed that it has 360 LoS because its a sphere and you can't show a rule supporting this.
Where in the rulebook do spheres get 360 LoS like turrets?
I have pointed to the exact rulebook justification. I have nothing to hide.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Literally says nothing about spheres. You claimed that it has 360 LoS because its a sphere and you can't show a rule supporting this.
The rule says that the Tesla Sphere is free to rotate around its mountings. I have not claimed 360 degree rotation, only the rotation supported by the rules (which is determined by imagining the Tesla Sphere rotating around its encasing, per the rules)
I am pointing to the spheres on the Obelisk and I am rotating the spheres on their mountings.
This allows me to bring 3 Tesla Spheres to bear on any single target.
Them's the rules.
I think at this point you should start quoting rules or concede that you have no argument of merit. Per the rules, I can rotate 3 Tesla Spheres on any single target within 24" of the Obelisk. I have shown clear rules justification. You have yet to actually adress the rules.
Where in the rulebook do spheres get 360 LoS like turrets?
I have pointed to the exact rulebook justification. I have nothing to hide.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Literally says nothing about spheres. You claimed that it has 360 LoS because its a sphere and you can't show a rule supporting this.
The rule says that the Tesla Sphere is free to rotate around its mountings.
I am pointing to the spheres on the Obelisk and I am rotating the spheres on their mountings.
This allows me to bring 3 Tesla Spheres to bear on any single target.
Them's the rules.
I think at this point you should start quoting rules or concede that you have no argument of merit.
My argument is your lack of adequate rules to quote to support your position. You claim its 360 because its a sphere (which is what you responded with when i asked why your quoted passage doesn't make all guns on all vehicles 360 LoS). I'm asking you to quote your rule supporting that claim.
My argument is your lack of adequate rules to quote to support your position. You claim its 360 because its a sphere (which is what you responded with when i asked why your quoted passage doesn't make all guns on all vehicles 360 LoS). I'm asking you to quote your rule supporting that claim.
I have never claimed 360 rotation.
360 rotation is not required.
I will just rotate per the rules.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Or have you not clued in yet that I am obeying the rules.
Yup. I got rules on my side.
Start pointing to actual rules bud. You aren't fooling anybody with your shenanigans.
My argument is your lack of adequate rules to quote to support your position. You claim its 360 because its a sphere (which is what you responded with when i asked why your quoted passage doesn't make all guns on all vehicles 360 LoS). I'm asking you to quote your rule supporting that claim.
I have never claimed 360 rotation.
360 rotation is not required.
I will just rotate per the rules.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Or have you not clued in yet that I am obeying the rules.
Yup. I got rules on my side.
Start pointing to actual rules bud. You aren't fooling anybody with your shenanigans.
I never said rotation either. You are trying to strawman me.
Like I said your quoted passage only works to let your Obelisk have 360 LoS by also letting every gun on every vehicle have 360 LoS.
My argument is your lack of adequate rules to quote to support your position. You claim its 360 because its a sphere (which is what you responded with when i asked why your quoted passage doesn't make all guns on all vehicles 360 LoS). I'm asking you to quote your rule supporting that claim.
I have never claimed 360 rotation.
360 rotation is not required.
I will just rotate per the rules.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Or have you not clued in yet that I am obeying the rules.
Yup. I got rules on my side.
Start pointing to actual rules bud. You aren't fooling anybody with your shenanigans.
I never said rotation either. You are trying to strawman me.
Like I said your quoted passage only works to let your Obelisk have 360 LoS by also letting every gun on every vehicle have 360 LoS.
I am not strawmanning you.
I am however boldy pointing out to the thread that you have absolutely no rules behind your argument and I have 100% rules behind my argument. So you should attend to the fact that you have no rules support before pushing your argument on this thread.
My argument is your lack of adequate rules to quote to support your position. You claim its 360 because its a sphere (which is what you responded with when i asked why your quoted passage doesn't make all guns on all vehicles 360 LoS). I'm asking you to quote your rule supporting that claim.
I have never claimed 360 rotation.
360 rotation is not required.
I will just rotate per the rules.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by intervening terrain or models. If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the weapon’s arc of sight. On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Or have you not clued in yet that I am obeying the rules.
Yup. I got rules on my side.
Start pointing to actual rules bud. You aren't fooling anybody with your shenanigans.
I never said rotation either. You are trying to strawman me.
Like I said your quoted passage only works to let your Obelisk have 360 LoS by also letting every gun on every vehicle have 360 LoS.
I am not trying to strawman you.
I am however boldy pointing out to the thread that you have absolutely no rules behind your argument and I have 100% rules behind my argument. So you should attend to that.
I proved that you don't have adequate rule behind your argument. And your the one trying to prove that Tesla Spheres have 360 LoS, not me.
I proved that you don't have adequate rule behind your argument. And your the one trying to prove that Tesla Spheres have 360 LoS, not me.
I freely quoted rules support and have never claimed 360 LoS.
I HAVE CLAIMED that 3 Tesla Spheres can easily be brought to bear against any one target. This is all accomplished by rotating the spheres around their mounting per the rules. And I have full rules support.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
So quit your obvious straw manning of me.
I have quoted the rules. You have quoted zero rules. ZERO.
CrownAxe wrote: You haven't proved that the gun barrel rotates with the sphere
The thread is still waiting for you to actually point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to the spheres. I rotate those spheres around their mountings and I can easily bring to bear 3 Tesla Spheres against any one single target, just by following the rules.
What spheres are you pointing to? And, more importantly, what rules are you pointing to? I have been completely up front about which rules I am pointing to.
CrownAxe wrote: You haven't proved that the gun barrel rotates with the sphere
The thread is still waiting for you to actually point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to the spheres.
What are you pointing to?
I would point to the gun barrel on the railing which what you use to determine LoS as per the rulebook
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight "When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel"
You keep claiming that the sphere rotates, but you have yet to prove that the barrel (the part that actually draws LoS) can rotate. After all why is the gun mounting not like a globe?
Spoiler:
See how the sphere rotates, but the railing (which is where the barrel is attached) stays in a fixed position. You can't move the railing so you don't get 360 LoS
CrownAxe wrote: You haven't proved that the gun barrel rotates with the sphere
The thread is still waiting for you to actually point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to the spheres.
What are you pointing to?
I would point to the gun barrel on the railing which what you use to determine LoS as per the rulebook
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight "When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel"
You keep claiming that the sphere rotates, but you have yet to prove that the barrel (the part that actually draws LoS) can rotate. After all why is the gun mounting not like a globe?
Spoiler:
See how the sphere rotates, but the railing (which is where the barrel is attached) stays in a fixed position. You can't move the railing so you don't get 360 LoS
The gun in question is called a sphere and not a rail. So once again I am pointing to a sphere and you are in the awkward position of pointing to something that is not a sphere. It sucks to be you in this argument.
The sphere rotates into position. And the Obelisk can easily bring 3 Tesla Spheres to bear onto any single target.
Them's the rules.
And you have yet to quote a rule taking away the permission I have redundantly claimed.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
CrownAxe wrote: You haven't proved that the gun barrel rotates with the sphere
The thread is still waiting for you to actually point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to the spheres.
What are you pointing to?
I would point to the gun barrel on the railing which what you use to determine LoS as per the rulebook
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight "When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel"
You keep claiming that the sphere rotates, but you have yet to prove that the barrel (the part that actually draws LoS) can rotate. After all why is the gun mounting not like a globe?
Spoiler:
See how the sphere rotates, but the railing (which is where the barrel is attached) stays in a fixed position. You can't move the railing so you don't get 360 LoS
The gun in question is called a sphere and not a rail. So once again I am pointing to a sphere and you are in the awkward position of pointing to something that is not a sphere. It sucks to be you in this argument.
The sphere rotates into position. And the Obelisk can easily bring 3 Tesla Spheres to bear onto any single target.
Them's the rules.
And you have yet to quote a rule taking away the permission I have redundantly claimed.
My assessment of the Tesla Sphere still has a sphere, it just isn't used to determine LoS
Can you prove why Tesla Sphere has to use the sphere to determine LoS despite it not being the gun's barrel?
CrownAxe wrote: You haven't proved that the gun barrel rotates with the sphere
The thread is still waiting for you to actually point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to the spheres.
What are you pointing to?
I would point to the gun barrel on the railing which what you use to determine LoS as per the rulebook
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight "When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel"
You keep claiming that the sphere rotates, but you have yet to prove that the barrel (the part that actually draws LoS) can rotate. After all why is the gun mounting not like a globe?
Spoiler:
See how the sphere rotates, but the railing (which is where the barrel is attached) stays in a fixed position. You can't move the railing so you don't get 360 LoS
The gun in question is called a sphere and not a rail. So once again I am pointing to a sphere and you are in the awkward position of pointing to something that is not a sphere. It sucks to be you in this argument.
The sphere rotates into position. And the Obelisk can easily bring 3 Tesla Spheres to bear onto any single target.
Them's the rules.
And you have yet to quote a rule taking away the permission I have redundantly claimed.
My assessment of the Tesla Sphere still has a sphere, it just isn't used to determine LoS
Can you prove why Tesla Sphere has to use the sphere to determine LoS despite it not being the gun's barrel?
Per the rules I have redundantly and freely quoted, the Tesla Sphere rotates around its mountings despite its fixed assembly.
So, per the rules, I can imagine the "barrel" of the sphere gun rotated according to any which position the mounting of the sphere would allow.
Them's the rules, bud.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
At this point I have 100% rules on my side and you have no rules on your side. You should take this matter to YMDC as you are spamming this thread at this point.
Grimgold wrote: So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.
My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?
You need to push it up mid field in order to get the best use of the independent targeting weapons. That also creates a bubble of dangerous terrain for all kinds of flyers right in the middle of the board... there-by limiting their effectiveness.
CrownAxe wrote: You haven't proved that the gun barrel rotates with the sphere
The thread is still waiting for you to actually point to the part of the Obelisk that is the Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to the spheres.
What are you pointing to?
I would point to the gun barrel on the railing which what you use to determine LoS as per the rulebook
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight "When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel"
You keep claiming that the sphere rotates, but you have yet to prove that the barrel (the part that actually draws LoS) can rotate. After all why is the gun mounting not like a globe?
Spoiler:
See how the sphere rotates, but the railing (which is where the barrel is attached) stays in a fixed position. You can't move the railing so you don't get 360 LoS
The gun in question is called a sphere and not a rail. So once again I am pointing to a sphere and you are in the awkward position of pointing to something that is not a sphere. It sucks to be you in this argument.
The sphere rotates into position. And the Obelisk can easily bring 3 Tesla Spheres to bear onto any single target.
Them's the rules.
And you have yet to quote a rule taking away the permission I have redundantly claimed.
My assessment of the Tesla Sphere still has a sphere, it just isn't used to determine LoS
Can you prove why Tesla Sphere has to use the sphere to determine LoS despite it not being the gun's barrel?
Per the rules I have redundantly and freely quoted, the Tesla Sphere rotates around its mountings despite its fixed assembly.
So, per the rules, I can imagine the "barrel" of the sphere gun rotated according to any which position the mounting of the sphere would allow.
Them's the rules, bud.
At this point I have 100% rules on my side and you have no rules on your side. You should take this matter to YMDC as you are spamming this thread at this point.
The mounting is like a globe so rotating does nothing because the railing with the gun's barrel stays fixed despite you rotating the sphere. So even with your quoted rules it doesn't give you 360 LoS, you only get 45 arc
The mounting is like a globe so rotating does nothing because the railing with the gun's barrel stays fixed despite you rotating the sphere. So even with your quoted rules it doesn't give you 360 LoS, you only get 45 arc
Them's the rules, bud
Nope. Per the rules I am free to move the gun and point it at a target based on the new position. The gun is the sphere. Or have you failed to catch onto the fact that the gun in this case is a sphere?
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
That is literally the rules I posted. So unless you have trouble with 6th grade English comprehension there is absolutely nothing more to discuss here.
Try again? I suggest you start posting rules to support your argument.
CrownAxe wrote: So why does the rule you keep quoting not let every gun on every vehicle have 360 LoS?
I am quoting rules and I am quoting rules that allow guns to behave as they are modeled. If they are modeled as spheres that are free to rotate in their encasings then so be it. Those spheres would not be allowed to rotate a full 360 degrees based on their modeling and I am not sure why you are trying to straw man me into saying that I have at any point suggested that the spheres get a full 360 LoS. They only get the rotation and LoS based on their modeling. THAT'S THE RULES!!!
Them's the rules.
If you have problems with the rules I am quoting then feel free to show them.
As it is, my argument has 100% rules support and your argument has 0% rules support.
col_impact wrote: If they are modeled as spheres that are free to rotate in their encasings then so be it.
Why is this true? This is just an assumption
Nope. No assumption. It's the rules! And I have full permission in a permissive rule set!
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
But the teslta spheres are like globes so them rotating doesn't give you more LoS
And if its not 360 degrees of rotation, how do you know how many you do get? Why isn't it like only 5 degrees?
On the contrary, the rules allow the gun itself to rotate which does allow the giving of more LoS. And it allows the giving of degrees of rotation based on the modeling. The modeling isn't a full 360 degrees, but it's a conical 270 degrees at the least, which is more than enough to allow 3 Tesla Spheres to shoot at a single target.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
But the teslta spheres are like globes so them rotating doesn't give you more LoS
On the contrary, the rules allow the gun itself to rotate which does allow the giving of more LoS.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
Point to the Tesla Spheres and the modeling and tell me. That's the rules and you have to obey them.
At the very least it's a conical 270 degrees.
The modeling is that they don't move at all because it physically can't move so it rotates 0 degrees.
Can you show me a rule that tells you how much it gets to move when you use your imagination?
I keep posting rules and the rules give explicit permission for the Tesla Spheres to move freely based on their mounting.
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
It should be noted that you have posted no rules to support your position.
Point to the Tesla Spheres and the modeling and tell me. That's the rules and you have to obey them.
At the very least it's a conical 270 degrees.
The modeling is that they don't move at all because it physically can't move so it rotates 0 degrees.
Can you show me a rule that tells you how much it gets to move when you use your imagination?
I keep posting rules
Spoiler:
Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight
from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by
intervening terrain or models.
If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out the
target’s cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing
unit. Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the
weapon’s arc of sight.
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases
when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 º , even if the barrel on the
model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons
can swivel horizontally up to 45 º .
It should be noted that you have posted no rules to support your position.
My position has 100% rules support.
But Tesla Guns don't have a mounting to swivel or rotate on (as per the globe example i've given you). You are only given permission to to rotate or swivel on their mounting
But Tesla Guns don't have a mounting to swivel or rotate on (as per the globe example i've given you). You are only given permission to to rotate or swivel on their mounting
I can easily point to their mounting on the Obelisk model. The mounting is the enclosure of the Tesla Sphere.
Do you have a definition of 'mounting' in the BRB that prevents this?
But Tesla Guns don't have a mounting to swivel or rotate on (as per the globe example i've given you). You are only given permission to to rotate or swivel on their mounting
I can easily point to their mounting on the Obelisk model.
Do you have a definition of 'mounting' in the BRB that prevents this?
Do you so you can prove that what you a easily point at is the mounting?
Wait, adding a D/Lord to the deathmarks gives him the rule to come in on the same turn as the deathmarks without rolling? I didn't realise their rule conferred to him?
But Tesla Guns don't have a mounting to swivel or rotate on (as per the globe example i've given you). You are only given permission to to rotate or swivel on their mounting
I can easily point to their mounting on the Obelisk model.
Do you have a definition of 'mounting' in the BRB that prevents this?
Do you so you can prove that what you a easily point at is the mounting?
The mounting is what surrounds the Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to spheres on the Obelisk when I point to Tesla Spheres.
But Tesla Guns don't have a mounting to swivel or rotate on (as per the globe example i've given you). You are only given permission to to rotate or swivel on their mounting
I can easily point to their mounting on the Obelisk model.
Do you have a definition of 'mounting' in the BRB that prevents this?
Do you so you can prove that what you a easily point at is the mounting?
The mounting is what surrounds the Tesla Sphere.
I am pointing to spheres on the Obelisk when I point to Tesla Spheres.
What are you pointing to?
The railing the barrel of the gun is on is the mounting. The sphere is just make it look cool
You do realize that my argument is to disprove your argument's validity right? That doesn't actually require me to quote rules, just show that your argument has holes in it. Which I have done since you have yet to quote a rule that proves that the sphere part of the model is the gun itself
My work here is done. Nice try bud but those are the rules.
CrownAxe wrote: You do realize that my argument is to disprove your argument's validity right? That doesn't actually require me to quote rules, just show that your argument has holes in it. Which I have done since you have yet to quote a rule that proves that the sphere part of the model is the gun itself
My work here is done. Nice try bud but those are the rules.
I will take this as a concession on your part. You are wisely noting that you have no rules support and should duck out of any further debate.
Crownaxe, you must have infinite patience, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS].
Some clarity and consistency on the weapon arc rules would be awesome, but... GeeDubs, because... GeeDubs.
I don't expect much from a rules team whose FAQ response to 'Can you upgrade a Captain in a Battle Company to a Chapter Master' is: 'Yes but that wasn't what we intended...'
I mean, great, we have an FAQ, but some of it is so mindmeltingly stupid, you have to wonder what sort of monkeys are bashing away at typewriters at GeeDubs HQ
CrownAxe wrote: You do realize that my argument is to disprove your argument's validity right? That doesn't actually require me to quote rules, just show that your argument has holes in it. Which I have done since you have yet to quote a rule that proves that the sphere part of the model is the gun itself
My work here is done. Nice try bud but those are the rules.
I will take this as a concession on your part. You are wisely noting that you have no rules support and should duck out of any further debate.
Neither of you have rules support. There are no rules precedent for Spheres or Sphere-mounted weapons. There is also no clear way to measure from the weapon itself - it has a part that clearly looks like a barrel but that isnt 100% indicative.
Col_, I would tend to agree with your viewpoint, as I think that was the intention and actually makes it relatively useful, but you need to act like a person when you post. You aren't the end all be all rules cleric. You were pretty ruttin wrong when it came to the Harvest Spyder ruling, so do realize that your opinions are just opinions until validated clearly, which they more than likely will be in the Necron FAQ. Which should be no more than a couple months out, so everyone just hold your horses.
Here's a question. Is it possible to build a melee focused Necron army at 1500 points? What are the best options for this and how useable/effective would this concept be?
Lord Blackscale wrote: Here's a question. Is it possible to build a melee focused Necron army at 1500 points? What are the best options for this and how useable/effective would this concept be?
Very! Assaultcrons are very solid. All of our pure assault units (with the possible exception of C'tan if you consider them as such) are well costed and effective. Wraiths are strong, Lychguard are durable, Praets are fast and solid in combat, Flayed Ones put out buckets of dice and are extremely durable for their cost, even units of Spyders aren't bad options. And Warscythe HQs make short work of many enemies.
If you want as purely Assault with no filler, you'll want to run a CAD. But, Decurion makes Flayed Ones and Praetorians suuuuper durable for their points. What were you thinking of taking?
Lord Blackscale wrote: Here's a question. Is it possible to build a melee focused Necron army at 1500 points? What are the best options for this and how useable/effective would this concept be?
Very! Assaultcrons are very solid. All of our pure assault units (with the possible exception of C'tan if you consider them as such) are well costed and effective. Wraiths are strong, Lychguard are durable, Praets are fast and solid in combat, Flayed Ones put out buckets of dice and are extremely durable for their cost, even units of Spyders aren't bad options. And Warscythe HQs make short work of many enemies.
If you want as purely Assault with no filler, you'll want to run a CAD. But, Decurion makes Flayed Ones and Praetorians suuuuper durable for their points. What were you thinking of taking?
Not really sure. Thinking of starting a Cron army and wanted to do it differently. As my Chaos should be good in melee, but aren't really, I want a good assault list. I was going to do Dark Eldar or Nids but they can't survive long enough to get into melee a lot. I will mess with Battlescribe and post a list here for critique.
Automatically Appended Next Post: HQ- 320
Destroyer Lord - Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe
Overlord (warlord) - Voidreaper, Gauntlet of Fire, Phylactery
Elites - 420
Flayed ones - 10X Flayed Ones
Lychguard - Sword n Board
Triaech Praetorians -Rod of the Covenant
Klowny wrote:Sorry to re ask this, but how does the deathmarks special rule help confer to the d/lord?
A very good question. I'm sure GW's response will be "The unit retains the rule but the IC does not gain it", as it has been for many equivalent responses.
Assuming that, I'm pretty unsure what that means for the attached DLord. If he's attached, he can't come in automatically, but they can, so he probably un-attaches? They can still Deep Strike together normally, though, which isn't bad. Check with a TO, I'd say, but normally I'd err on the side of caution so no one can blame your for rules lawyering.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Here's a question. Is it possible to build a melee focused Necron army at 1500 points? What are the best options for this and how useable/effective would this concept be?
Very! Assaultcrons are very solid. All of our pure assault units (with the possible exception of C'tan if you consider them as such) are well costed and effective. Wraiths are strong, Lychguard are durable, Praets are fast and solid in combat, Flayed Ones put out buckets of dice and are extremely durable for their cost, even units of Spyders aren't bad options. And Warscythe HQs make short work of many enemies.
If you want as purely Assault with no filler, you'll want to run a CAD. But, Decurion makes Flayed Ones and Praetorians suuuuper durable for their points. What were you thinking of taking?
Not really sure. Thinking of starting a Cron army and wanted to do it differently. As my Chaos should be good in melee, but aren't really, I want a good assault list. I was going to do Dark Eldar or Nids but they can't survive long enough to get into melee a lot. I will mess with Battlescribe and post a list here for critique.
Here's the things to consider:
Wraiths are fast, but have no guns and rely on Rending for their AP. They're very good at killing "normal" units but can struggle against things like Deathstars or GCs/SHVs. Fearless.
Praetorians are also fast. They have guns and AP2 in Assault, but have less Attacks and no Invuln. However, they have Reanimation naturally, which helps them be nearly as durable as Wraiths. Fearless.
Lychguard are slow, but are more powerful at the two extremes. Shield Lychguard are extremely durable (especially when you put Orikan and a couple ICs in there). Warscythe Lychguard are extremely killy, since S7 AP2 Armorbane will remove nearly anything from the board in one go. Not Fearless, so be careful for sweeps against power units.
Flayed Ones are slow, but they can Outflank/Infiltrate. They're less durable, but they're super cheap and you can bring lots. In Assault, AP5 is balanced out by a massive number of attacks (5 on the charge with Shred!), so you can end up doing just as much damage as some of the other powerful units against anything not T8.
Spyders are slow, but T6 is great. They only get RP in the Harvest formation, but then they're also limited to 1 model per unit (not good if you want them to be an actual Assault unit). Pair them with Scarab blobs, which they can buff up and send out to tie up other things. This is a better MC Assault list than Nids, imo
Hope this helps!
Automatically Appended Next Post: To your edit:
Lord Blackscale wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: HQ- 320
Destroyer Lord - Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe
Overlord (warlord) - Voidreaper, Gauntlet of Fire, Phylactery
Elites - 420
Flayed ones - 10X Flayed Ones
Lychguard - Sword n Board
Triaech Praetorians -Rod of the Covenant
Put the Overlord with the Lychguard and the Destroyer Lord with the Flayed Ones.
Not a bad start. Just remember that you can't deploy any ICs with the Flayed Ones since they have Infiltrate, unless you roll the Strategic Warlord Trait. For the Overlord, defensive upgrades are better. Res Orb or Phase Shifter would be better than the other two options, try to find the 5 points somewhere.
Klowny wrote:Sorry to re ask this, but how does the deathmarks special rule help confer to the d/lord?
A very good question. I'm sure GW's response will be "The unit retains the rule but the IC does not gain it", as it has been for many equivalent responses.
Assuming that, I'm pretty unsure what that means for the attached DLord. If he's attached, he can't come in automatically, but they can, so he probably un-attaches? They can still Deep Strike together normally, though, which isn't bad. Check with a TO, I'd say, but normally I'd err on the side of caution so no one can blame your for rules lawyering.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Here's a question. Is it possible to build a melee focused Necron army at 1500 points? What are the best options for this and how useable/effective would this concept be?
Very! Assaultcrons are very solid. All of our pure assault units (with the possible exception of C'tan if you consider them as such) are well costed and effective. Wraiths are strong, Lychguard are durable, Praets are fast and solid in combat, Flayed Ones put out buckets of dice and are extremely durable for their cost, even units of Spyders aren't bad options. And Warscythe HQs make short work of many enemies.
If you want as purely Assault with no filler, you'll want to run a CAD. But, Decurion makes Flayed Ones and Praetorians suuuuper durable for their points. What were you thinking of taking?
Not really sure. Thinking of starting a Cron army and wanted to do it differently. As my Chaos should be good in melee, but aren't really, I want a good assault list. I was going to do Dark Eldar or Nids but they can't survive long enough to get into melee a lot. I will mess with Battlescribe and post a list here for critique.
Here's the things to consider:
Wraiths are fast, but have no guns and rely on Rending for their AP. They're very good at killing "normal" units but can struggle against things like Deathstars or GCs/SHVs. Fearless.
Praetorians are also fast. They have guns and AP2 in Assault, but have less Attacks and no Invuln. However, they have Reanimation naturally, which helps them be nearly as durable as Wraiths. Fearless.
Lychguard are slow, but are more powerful at the two extremes. Shield Lychguard are extremely durable (especially when you put Orikan and a couple ICs in there). Warscythe Lychguard are extremely killy, since S7 AP2 Armorbane will remove nearly anything from the board in one go. Not Fearless, so be careful for sweeps against power units.
Flayed Ones are slow, but they can Outflank/Infiltrate. They're less durable, but they're super cheap and you can bring lots. In Assault, AP5 is balanced out by a massive number of attacks (5 on the charge with Shred!), so you can end up doing just as much damage as some of the other powerful units against anything not T8.
Spyders are slow, but T6 is great. They only get RP in the Harvest formation, but then they're also limited to 1 model per unit (not good if you want them to be an actual Assault unit). Pair them with Scarab blobs, which they can buff up and send out to tie up other things. This is a better MC Assault list than Nids, imo
Hope this helps!
Automatically Appended Next Post: To your edit:
Lord Blackscale wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: HQ- 320
Destroyer Lord - Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe
Overlord (warlord) - Voidreaper, Gauntlet of Fire, Phylactery
Elites - 420
Flayed ones - 10X Flayed Ones
Lychguard - Sword n Board
Triaech Praetorians -Rod of the Covenant
Put the Overlord with the Lychguard and the Destroyer Lord with the Flayed Ones.
Not a bad start. Just remember that you can't deploy any ICs with the Flayed Ones since they have Infiltrate, unless you roll the Strategic Warlord Trait. For the Overlord, defensive upgrades are better. Res Orb or Phase Shifter would be better than the other two options, try to find the 5 points somewhere.
HQ- 320
Destroyer Lord - Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe
Overlord (warlord) - Warscythe, Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter
Elites - 420
Flayed ones - 10X Flayed Ones
Lychguard - Sword n Board
Triaech Praetorians -Rod of the Covenant
Well that certainly went places I didn't expect, I logged a question on the FAQ, if you guys want to do the same that would probably help get an answer. With any luck we can get an answer in the Necron specific FAQ, whenever they get around to us. I get the feeling that we are within an army or two of being next, might just be wishful thinking though.
My final thought is it's a very silly unit if the spheres count as fixed hull mounted weapons since they can't shoot units close to the obelisk, and the fluff seems to point to them being turret like, even if the rules are shaky. So until the FAQ, I'll just make sure that me and my opponent are on the same page with the rules, and if not, I'll play a different list. Poor bastards won't even realize that they rules lawyered me into a much meaner list and that i was trying to take it easy one them.
As for the question on D-lords getting the ability to counter deepstrike, It was made specifically clear in the FAQ:
Q: Do rules applying to the unit, such as those from formation command benefits, or unit wide special rules apply to any attached independent characters?
A: Yes
So yeah totally works, and this is backed up by them saying that infiltrate is a specific exception to this ruling. You would need to be going after some big fish for it to be worth it point wise.
skoffs wrote: ... did I just have to wade through four pages of gak that should have been on the YMDC board just to get back to the tactics discussion?
Is there any way to prevent this from happening in the future?
As for the question on D-lords getting the ability to counter deepstrike, It was made specifically clear in the FAQ:
Q: Do rules applying to the unit, such as those from formation command benefits, or unit wide special rules apply to any attached independent characters?
A: Yes
So yeah totally works, and this is backed up by them saying that infiltrate is a specific exception to this ruling. You would need to be going after some big fish for it to be worth it point wise.
Read the text under the picture, they changed it to No (can't update FB pictures).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oz of the north wrote: Going back a few pages, about a obelisk being used. At the LVO it was actually in one of the top 8 which is impressive.
It is great if you know you are going to be facing a flier heavy army with the grav pulse thingy.
He was more using it for T2 mega strike by dragging out the Monolith and then using that to pull models into midfield. The mobility from that formation is pretty sick.
Klowny wrote:Sorry to re ask this, but how does the deathmarks special rule help confer to the d/lord?
A very good question. I'm sure GW's response will be "The unit retains the rule but the IC does not gain it", as it has been for many equivalent responses.
Assuming that, I'm pretty unsure what that means for the attached DLord. If he's attached, he can't come in automatically, but they can, so he probably un-attaches? They can still Deep Strike together normally, though, which isn't bad. Check with a TO, I'd say, but normally I'd err on the side of caution so no one can blame your for rules lawyering.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Here's a question. Is it possible to build a melee focused Necron army at 1500 points? What are the best options for this and how useable/effective would this concept be?
Very! Assaultcrons are very solid. All of our pure assault units (with the possible exception of C'tan if you consider them as such) are well costed and effective. Wraiths are strong, Lychguard are durable, Praets are fast and solid in combat, Flayed Ones put out buckets of dice and are extremely durable for their cost, even units of Spyders aren't bad options. And Warscythe HQs make short work of many enemies.
If you want as purely Assault with no filler, you'll want to run a CAD. But, Decurion makes Flayed Ones and Praetorians suuuuper durable for their points. What were you thinking of taking?
Not really sure. Thinking of starting a Cron army and wanted to do it differently. As my Chaos should be good in melee, but aren't really, I want a good assault list. I was going to do Dark Eldar or Nids but they can't survive long enough to get into melee a lot. I will mess with Battlescribe and post a list here for critique.
Here's the things to consider:
Wraiths are fast, but have no guns and rely on Rending for their AP. They're very good at killing "normal" units but can struggle against things like Deathstars or GCs/SHVs. Fearless.
Praetorians are also fast. They have guns and AP2 in Assault, but have less Attacks and no Invuln. However, they have Reanimation naturally, which helps them be nearly as durable as Wraiths. Fearless.
Lychguard are slow, but are more powerful at the two extremes. Shield Lychguard are extremely durable (especially when you put Orikan and a couple ICs in there). Warscythe Lychguard are extremely killy, since S7 AP2 Armorbane will remove nearly anything from the board in one go. Not Fearless, so be careful for sweeps against power units.
Flayed Ones are slow, but they can Outflank/Infiltrate. They're less durable, but they're super cheap and you can bring lots. In Assault, AP5 is balanced out by a massive number of attacks (5 on the charge with Shred!), so you can end up doing just as much damage as some of the other powerful units against anything not T8.
Spyders are slow, but T6 is great. They only get RP in the Harvest formation, but then they're also limited to 1 model per unit (not good if you want them to be an actual Assault unit). Pair them with Scarab blobs, which they can buff up and send out to tie up other things. This is a better MC Assault list than Nids, imo
Hope this helps!
Automatically Appended Next Post: To your edit:
Lord Blackscale wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: HQ- 320
Destroyer Lord - Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe
Overlord (warlord) - Voidreaper, Gauntlet of Fire, Phylactery
Elites - 420
Flayed ones - 10X Flayed Ones
Lychguard - Sword n Board
Triaech Praetorians -Rod of the Covenant
Put the Overlord with the Lychguard and the Destroyer Lord with the Flayed Ones.
Not a bad start. Just remember that you can't deploy any ICs with the Flayed Ones since they have Infiltrate, unless you roll the Strategic Warlord Trait. For the Overlord, defensive upgrades are better. Res Orb or Phase Shifter would be better than the other two options, try to find the 5 points somewhere.
HQ- 320
Destroyer Lord - Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe
Overlord (warlord) - Warscythe, Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter
Elites - 420
Flayed ones - 10X Flayed Ones
Lychguard - Sword n Board
Triaech Praetorians -Rod of the Covenant
Made a small change. Perhaps put D-Lord with Praetorians instead?
RE: The wraiths. Why not equip them with whip coils? getting first strike vs most enemies is worth quite a lot, and can be the difference between getting to attack or not. I'd also be tempted to scrap the ghost ark entirely in favor of more wraiths and/or bikes.
Well there are arguments about how many Spyders you can take in harvests. Also with the retribution phalanx, there is arguments as to how many scarabs come back when the 'From the Sands, We Rise' rule is activated, original squad or buffed up amount from the Spyder. Would be nice to get the official word on these wans
Klowny wrote: Well there are arguments about how many Spyders you can take in harvests.
They took care of that in the main rulebook FAQ:
Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states ‘1 model’ (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists ‘1 Unit of models’ (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?
A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.
Klowny wrote: Well there are arguments about how many Spyders you can take in harvests.
They took care of that in the main rulebook FAQ:
Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states ‘1 model’ (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists ‘1 Unit of models’ (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?
A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.
Not exactly. The ALE for the Canoptek Spyder still permits you to add additional Spyders and the Canoptek Harvest formation still lists no restrictions. So you can add additional Spyders just as easily as you can add a Ghost Ark to the unit of warriors in a Reclamation Legion.
Hopefully they will clear the matter up in the Necron FAQ.
Klowny wrote: Well there are arguments about how many Spyders you can take in harvests.
They took care of that in the main rulebook FAQ:
Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states ‘1 model’ (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists ‘1 Unit of models’ (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?
A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.
Not exactly. The ALE for the Canoptek Spyder still permits you to add additional Spyders and the Canoptek Harvest formation still lists no restrictions. So you can add additional Spyders just as easily as you can add a Ghost Ark to the unit of warriors in a Reclamation Legion.
Hopefully they will clear the matter up in the Necron FAQ.
No. Just no. The main book FAQ is clear.
1 Tomb Spyder is not a unit of Tomb Spyders. You can upgrade that spyder, but you can't do upgrades for the unit of Spyders (like additional spyders...)
The Reclamation Legion says that you can take Units of Warriors, so you can use the upgrades for the unit.
Klowny wrote: Well there are arguments about how many Spyders you can take in harvests.
They took care of that in the main rulebook FAQ:
Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states ‘1 model’ (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists ‘1 Unit of models’ (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?
A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.
Not exactly. The ALE for the Canoptek Spyder still permits you to add additional Spyders and the Canoptek Harvest formation still lists no restrictions. So you can add additional Spyders just as easily as you can add a Ghost Ark to the unit of warriors in a Reclamation Legion.
Hopefully they will clear the matter up in the Necron FAQ.
No. Just no. The main book FAQ is clear.
1 Tomb Spyder is not a unit of Tomb Spyders. You can upgrade that spyder, but you can't do upgrades for the unit of Spyders (like additional spyders...)
The Reclamation Legion says that you can take Units of Warriors, so you can use the upgrades for the unit.
There's an option to add additional Spyders and no restriction that takes that away.
Feel free to point to an actual rule that takes away the permission.
The problem is that you are still having to argue based on intent, since you have no rules to back your rules interpretation.
Klowny wrote: Well there are arguments about how many Spyders you can take in harvests.
They took care of that in the main rulebook FAQ:
Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states ‘1 model’ (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists ‘1 Unit of models’ (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?
A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.
Not exactly. The ALE for the Canoptek Spyder still permits you to add additional Spyders and the Canoptek Harvest formation still lists no restrictions. So you can add additional Spyders just as easily as you can add a Ghost Ark to the unit of warriors in a Reclamation Legion.
Hopefully they will clear the matter up in the Necron FAQ.
No. Just no. The main book FAQ is clear.
1 Tomb Spyder is not a unit of Tomb Spyders. You can upgrade that spyder, but you can't do upgrades for the unit of Spyders (like additional spyders...)
The Reclamation Legion says that you can take Units of Warriors, so you can use the upgrades for the unit.
There's an option to add additional Spyders and no restriction that takes that away.
Feel free to point to an actual rule that takes away the permission.
The problem is that you are still having to argue based on intent, since you have no rules to back your rules interpretation.
A model can't take another model as an upgrade. Because then it becomes a unit and the GWFAQ says "The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.". Unit is not a model. You can't take a unit, you can take a model. The Spyder is a model. Multiple Spyders are a unit. The formation allows one model. You are trying to bring a unit. THIS IS NOT COMPATIBLE.
The Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii FAQs have a question asking if "1 Onager Dunecrawler" in a Formation allows for a unit, and they said no, a model cannot be upgraded to have more models. This is exactly the same as the Spyder situation and they ruled on it. This is a clear precedent and there is no reason in any way shape or form to believe that the Harvest will work any differently.
PLEASE STOP TRYING TO FORCE INCORRECT INTERPRETATIONS WHEN IT IS VERY CLEAR WHAT IS HAPPENING.
A model can't take another model as an upgrade. Because then it becomes a unit and the GWFAQ says "The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.". Unit is not a model. You can't take a unit, you can take a model. The Spyder is a model. Multiple Spyders are a unit. The formation allows one model. You are trying to bring a unit. THIS IS NOT COMPATIBLE.
The Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii FAQs have a question asking if "1 Onager Dunecrawler" in a Formation allows for a unit, and they said no, a model cannot be upgraded to have more models. This is exactly the same as the Spyder situation and they ruled on it. This is a clear precedent and there is no reason in any way shape or form to believe that the Harvest will work any differently.
PLEASE STOP TRYING TO FORCE INCORRECT INTERPRETATIONS WHEN IT IS VERY CLEAR WHAT IS HAPPENING.
No need to shout. I never force incorrect interpretations on anyone. I merely point out what is RAW and what is RAI. If you want to shout at somebody, pick up a phone and call GW for their sloppy rules.
Hopefully they will answer the question the same way in the Necron codex as they did in the Cult Mechanicus codex. The question was not answered in the main BRBFAQ so it doesn't carry over to the Necron codex. Looking at another codex's FAQ for precedent and applying that precedent to the Necrons is still arguing from intent and there is no rule actively restricting the permission to add additional Spyders in the formation.
col_impact wrote: The question was not answered in the main BRBFAQ so it doesn't carry over to the Necron codex.
Literally the first question on this page in the BRBFAQ, even referencing the Harvest. This question, which is for The Rules and therefore affects all Codexes as well, makes it clear that a Formation at references 1 [model] is different from 1 [unit of model]. It is now RAW per the FAQ. Playing it any other way is incorrect or houseruling.
Model is different from unit, and again, adding more Spyders makes it a unit. You cannot take a unit, you can only take a model. Per RAW.
Point to the rule which says I cannot add more Spyders.
I can point to the rule which says I can add more Spyders.
Secondly, please explain how the Spyder model that is not in a unit is allowed to participate in the movement phase, the shooting phase, or the assault phase. Those phases only allow models that are in units to participate.
col_impact wrote: Point to the rule which says I cannot add more Spyders.
Show me the rule that says I can't take weight my dice. Show me the rule that says I can't place new line of sight blocking terrain on the table whenever I feel like it.
Congratulations on becoming the first person I've ever blocked on a forum.
col_impact wrote: Point to the rule which says I cannot add more Spyders.
Show me the rule that says I can't take weight my dice. Show me the rule that says I can't place new line of sight blocking terrain on the table whenever I feel like it.
Congratulations on becoming the first person I've ever blocked on a forum.
I guess that's your way of conceding and recognizing that there still is a loose end in the rules. Hopefully they will address that loose end in the Necron FAQ.
WTF, why are people still responding to anything he says?
Didn't we already go over this a few pages ago?
Seriously, reds8n (or any mods, really), can we have the next people who try to start a YMDC fight in the middle of a tactics thread receive a temporary ban?
I can't be the only one who is utterly sick of this crap.
Hopefully this goes well.
