hmm good point about the mission, might force me into rethinking part s of my list.

Just read the ITC pack that came out recently and see if your army is playable in all the mission types and see if you can work around going 2nd instead of 1st.

I don't have the model yet for a second TA, hence the DDA.

I would just proxy something for it mate. it has a 60mm base so as long as your opponent does not mind you could use an Anni Barge or DDA as one since they all share the same 60mm base.

I brought warriors backed by a GA as my main source of anti horde, that and the tesla,

I would recommend 10+ Flayed-Ones for anti-horde followed by Tesla Immortals. FO turn most horde units into mince-meat with their 4 attacks per model and re-rolling to-wound rolls. Target a unit with the Immos and whatever is left over have the FO take out. They also add 1 to morale which is great if the Deceiver is also close by making it +2 to the opponents morale.

This is what I am currently working with for ITC and local-tournaments.

List 1


List 2


List 3

So just found out it's a 2k tournament, no ITC rules, straight rule book and Errata. I have changed my list to the following. This list is fairly flexible in its response to different types of armies. Fast CC means it turtles together, and the sheer weight of fire should carry me through. Against more slower/static I can GI the warriors into cover and rapid fire range, and stick the Deciever in there as a Cc counter charge.

The pylon and DDA stay protected by the Scarabs in the back corner of the field, supported by the spyder. There's enough firepower to counter the Magnus/Knight/Brimstone spam. It's a hard counter to Knight lists. It should do well against the parking lot, DE raider spam, will slow the harlies advance, and they won't be able to kill it before it kills them.

The Scarabs, spyder and DDA get a 5++ making them very tough, the spyder regens the pylon and Scarabs. There's a big enough footprint to deny all deepstrike threat, even plasma/melta. And Scarabs can just fall back, and the short range firepower is even stronger than afar. This is an alpha strike list.

It would struggle with green tide, Genestealer spam, and maybe the storm talon spam due to going second.

Toholk gives a 30% chance of seizing the initiative, meaning a lucky roll against the storm talon flyer spam list enables my alpha strike to take out a lot of firepower on their side. It's not guaranteed but you never know.

FO are too expensive of a unit to just deepstrike in and charge. They're still fragile without help. And they won't be getting support in my list. It's all about the pylon. It's enough of a fire magnet my other units can work the objectives as healthy as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The T.ark is mobile and tough, I need fast units to grab objectives, which is what the T.ark has over a second DDA. I'm playtesting this against HWT and scion DS spam and the Magnus/Knight/Brimstone list this week, will let you guys know.

^
I'm assuming the above was meant to be a Spearhead detachment, not Vanguard (not enough Elites, but plenty of Heavy)

 skoffs wrote:
^
I'm assuming the above was meant to be a Spearhead detachment, not Vanguard (not enough Elites, but plenty of Heavy)

I always do this! Haha thanks skoffs

Interestingly enough, the Imperial Armour FAQs for Xenos just came out... but there were no Necron entries.
Does that mean there are no issues with any of our FW stuff?

The only thing I was wondering about was the pylon tesla pistol not having the tesla rule.....

But I'm glad, means the pylon is still strong and it's points haven't been adjusted

I figured the gauss pylon not listing/paying for its tele matrix or that the teslark being the only 10 wound vehicle in the game whose profile degrades at 4 wounds instead of 5 would be faq'd but i'm cool with keeping those if they are.

Most of the lists I've seen is comprised of either DDA, Heavy Destoyers, Teslarks, Sentry or Gauss Pylons as our Big hitters vs veichles and monsters.
But we need to remember that Necrons is also an opponent.

And with the current "meta" shifting to some kind of QS spam within our faction, what is the go-to unit to counter QS? The second profile on Teslarks is fine, albeit Str 5, and Gauss weapons in general seems to be ok. But we need alot of Gauss to break a DDA.

Is there anything else that counter QS, as we dont really have any access to high strength 2/3 damage weapons?

Hiddius wrote:
Most of the lists I've seen is comprised of either DDA, Heavy Destoyers, Teslarks, Sentry or Gauss Pylons as our Big hitters vs veichles and monsters.
But we need to remember that Necrons is also an opponent.

And with the current "meta" shifting to some kind of QS spam within our faction, what is the go-to unit to counter QS? The second profile on Teslarks is fine, albeit Str 5, and Gauss weapons in general seems to be ok. But we need alot of Gauss to break a DDA.

Is there anything else that counter QS, as we dont really have any access to high strength 2/3 damage weapons?

warscythes and ROC, C'tan in CC.

Remember if our big guns cant hurt their vehicles, their big guns cant hurt our vehicles just as much

I'd say teslarks are the best vehicles for the mirror match because all our anti tank stuff is wasting its time against each other so it's a race to kill the other side's silver tide portion fastest and the grav cannon and cham flamer modes really bone all of our infantry options. The toughness 7 also helps curb the efficacy of enemy warscythes or the oddball weapon that's good against qs like particle shredders that would wound the other t6 vehicles on a 3+.

I actually think regular Destroyers are the best answer to a QSpam list.
1. They have the natural speed to get in range.
2. They wound on a 5+, which isn't hard in larger numbers.
3. D3 damage is hard for the QS to bypass, as the average is 2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They wound on a 5+, which isn't hard in larger numbers.

Therein lies the problem.
(Destroyers are too expensive to take in large numbers)

When is 'before the battle begins' for generating c'tan powers exactly? Can you wait and see your opponent's army, list, or even their set up before you pick or does it mean during list building?

So I've been thinking. Initially I dropped the stalker from my list due to the pylon not needing the buff.

But..... lots and lots of armies seem to be bringing flyers with hard to hit. While my Pylon is good against them, I think a stalker is still necessary.

Ive seen a lot of Imperium lists with 6-8 flyers with hard to hit.... I have a TA and DDA that would massively benefit from the +1.

It would mean I'd have to drop the deceiver, but the extra big gun and +1 I feel is necessary.

Also having an extra vehicle reduces the damage that stormtalon spam can do while also potentially dropping a third flyer a turn.

If I drop the deceiver I lose T1 rapid fire from my warriors, and it almost guarantees I turtle most games until my scarabs and TA/GA are safe to grab objectives. But its a very savage, long range gunline that is also very durable. I still have 20x warriors and a GA for hordes, I gain extra scarabs for an even bigger DS deny footprint. Once T3 is about I can start moving everything. It better counters flyer spam, parking lots and vehicles in general. Turtling against DS genestealer blobs for example and having a 5++ negates their rend mechanic, and they will be wiped the second I fall back, all while my big guns still obliterate their backline.

I feel hordes are still going to be in trucks, and while hordes are still fast without vehicles, they are alot less durable. Popping a transport or 2 T1 in their deployment zone neuters the CC unit inside well enough that I can focus the closer ones before they get to me.

What do you guys think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Actinium wrote:
When is 'before the battle begins' for generating c'tan powers exactly? Can you wait and see your opponent's army, list, or even their set up before you pick or does it mean during list building?

The tournament I'm going to allows for psychic powers to be picked before each game, meaning you can tailor your army to suit. I feel the C'tan powers will be ruled the same.

What +1 is this? Doesn't the Stalker let you reroll 1s?

Should be a nice benefit for the pylon.

Pylon has 2+ +1 against fly, should have no problem with hard to hit (still 2+)

But..... lots and lots of armies seem to be bringing flyers with hard to hit. While my Pylon is good against them, I think a stalker is still necessary.

Ive seen a lot of Imperium lists with 6-8 flyers with hard to hit.... I have a TA and DDA that would massively benefit from the +1.

Maybe you could drop the Deceiver to add a Sentry Pylon w/ Gauss Exterminator to your list giving you 2 units that are anti-air with +1 to hit against flyers and deep strike as well?

torblind wrote:
What +1 is this? Doesn't the Stalker let you reroll 1s?

Should be a nice benefit for the pylon.

Pylon has 2+ +1 against fly, should have no problem with hard to hit (still 2+)

God damn it!!! I'm still mixing up 7th and 8th rules. Was thinking it was +1 BS, not RR of 1's

I still feel it fits the list better than the Deciever, MW will shred a C'tan, but not a vehicle. If against Magnus point the stalker at Magnus, let the pylon ensure its dead. For flyer spam it helps the DDA, as it only has d3 shots. The TA has D6 so it's statistically putting more shots down range it doesn't need as much help. Additionally the stalker puts out more long range damage compared to a Deciever. It also means I don't have to leave my warriors and GA unsupported midfield if I don't want to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Odrankt wrote:

But..... lots and lots of armies seem to be bringing flyers with hard to hit. While my Pylon is good against them, I think a stalker is still necessary.

Ive seen a lot of Imperium lists with 6-8 flyers with hard to hit.... I have a TA and DDA that would massively benefit from the +1.

Maybe you could drop the Deceiver to add a Sentry Pylon w/ Gauss Exterminator to your list giving you 2 units that are anti-air with +1 to hit against flyers and deep strike as well?

Hmm I do have a gauss sentry pylon. I'm losing the stalkers CC and movement for a better gun. Sticking it next to its big brother and DDA doubles down on the backfield gun line. I'd get a particle Beamer and gloom prism too.

Is it worth it?

 Klowny wrote:

God damn it!!! I'm still mixing up 7th and 8th rules. Was thinking it was +1 BS, not RR of 1's

(even in 7th it didn't buff vehicles)

torblind wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

God damn it!!! I'm still mixing up 7th and 8th rules. Was thinking it was +1 BS, not RR of 1's

(even in 7th it didn't buff vehicles)

I know, it worked differently, I just got the two mixed up is all. I used the stalker a lot in 7th, I like the model.

Still cant decide if a gauss sentry pylon or triarch stalker is better in my list. Im also trying to find the best way to cram more scarabs in, seriously contemplating dropping 10 warriors for them. I realise they are a very good counter to razorwing flock spam... we hit/wound on 3+/3+, while they hit and wound us on 5+/5+. We have a save, they dont. Thinking 3x9 scarabs, trying to see what I can shuffle around, not much wriggle room.

If anyone is a maths wizard, any chance of doing the numbersof a gauss sentry pylon's damage vs a THGC stalker? At both flying and ground targets, assuming T7.

What toughness, save and wounds are they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For Sentry pylon, assuming +1 to hit Fly from base BS 3+:

Model hits wound dmg = total ------------------------------------- S. Pylon: 5/6 * 2 * 4/6 * 3.5 = 3.89 Stalker: 4/6 * 2 * 4/6 * 3.5 = 3.11



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you can do the math if you can grok all the knobs and buttons here: http://www.dice-hammer.com


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the flyers are -1 to hit, the Stalker starts to suffer:

Model hits wound dmg = total ------------------------------------- Stalker: 3/6 * 2 * 4/6 * 3.5 = 2.33


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for ground targets:

Model hits wound dmg = total ------------------------------------- S. Pylon: 3/6 * 2 * 4/6 * 3.5 = 2.33 Stalker: 4/6 * 2 * 4/6 * 3.5 = 3.11

The Gauss pylon was made for this, if you can get one more:

Model hits wound dmg = total --------------------------------------------- G. Pylon [fly]: 5/6 * 3.5 * 5/6 * 8 = 19.44 G. Pylon [gnd]: 4/6 * 3.5 * 5/6 * 8 = 15.56

(Assuming the flyers dont have a 2+ save)

Thanks Tor! Legend

So am I in the minority here for loving particle shredders on my stalkers? I been running them heavy gauss and keeping them in my backfield, but I switched to playing more aggressively with them with ps.. S7 is a weird niche but the 6 shots are needed. Most my lists have heavy destroyers and a dda so I haven't missed the at of heavy gauss that much.

I've been wondering if other people appreciated the silent brother of the 3 Stalker weapons. I guess since we lack (or lacked pre FW) anti vehicle, most people didn't want to fit their stalker out with anti-infantry, which we already have.
I didn't bring that weapon this time, but I do want to try it out.

I have been a long lurker on this thread, but never really saw the need to post. I figured it was high time.

I wanted to share a fun list with you guys that I will be using against BA this saturday.
He said he was bringing a fun list as well, so I'm not expecting 3 deepstriking cc beasts, (which is why I have only 1 small unit of scarabs)


Some nice Backfield dakka with some serious counter charge units and since I expect them to come towards me, I don't have to worry too much about the Praets outrunning Anrakyrs buff.
I don't have any anti horde, but since I'm face BA, I'm not expecting any horde like lists.
Thoughts?
Too cc/elite heavy?

Maybe the Deathmarks could be switched for something better, but I want to see how usefull they are, and that means bringing 10.

So just went up against my comp lists hard counter (besides storm raven flyer spam), 10 HWT, 150 conscripts, DS Scion plasma spam.

Had it been a TO I would have won due to me out scoring him early, but the game took north of 4 hours (conscripts rolling 172 shots takes aaaaaaaaaaaaaaages). By bottom of 4 I only had my pylon and Toholk left. I couldn't deal with the horde quick enough, and my warriors underperformed atrociously. My scarabs however.....

It got me thinking. My list has lots of high health, high damage weapons but severely lacks in the horde killing capabilities.

20 warriors and a GA is a tough nut to crack, unless facing 150 conscripts and Autocannon HWT. The warriors and GA killed....... 11 conscripts before getting wiped from the face of the earth. They are my front line, and are painfully slow. Additionally I didn't like having Toholk that far forward in a gunline list as he is very easily killed as he has no support.

I realised the answer.

Scarab spam.

Wave after wave of scarabs. 5 of them did comparable damage in 1 round of combat than my warriors and GA did in 1 round of shooting. They're cheaper than warriors, double the speed, 3 wounds. Sure they don't have as good a save nor are they as tough, but they are really good in CC with 4a base. Against conscripts 2x squads will shred them, against razorwing spam they hit/wound on 3+ vs the razorwing's 5+. They screen my guns, can grab objectives, and get respawned by the spyders.

So new and revised comp list:


I'm losing 20x warriors and a GA, but gaining 18 Scarabs. That's literally my entire deployment zone filled with scarabs. It's also now 3d3 wounds being regenerated a turn in addition to 2x scarab bases a turn being replenished into the squads so long as I position right. I could take a third squad of 6 scarabs but I need 1st turn to get my damage off.

Yes I would like more anti infantry shooting, but I think, pound for pound our swarms do better than the rest.

You are welcome to the Scarabs Fan Club.

" lacks in the horde killing capabilities. "
2*10 Tesla Immortals

Yeah, I feel however, after seeing many comp lists, that big anti 'FLY' and tank guns screened by chaff is strong. I don't have the points for tesla, and I feel Scarabs are good at the whole range of screens. Razorwing, brims, conscripts, nids, all the same. They just need to hold everything up long enough for the cannons to get the job done.

11 units and a seize reroll on an alpha strike this brutal is very powerful. It counters the big lists. I feel I just need to get the balance between big guns and scarabs right.

 Klowny wrote:


It got me thinking. My list has lots of high health, high damage weapons but severely lacks in the horde killing capabilities.

I realised the answer.

Scarab spam.

As far as Scarab spam goes it isn't that reliable of a way of taking out a list unless backed up by shooty units. You want your Scarabs to;



I usually put my Scarabs in two different profiles. 1 is for Objective Scouring, holding up enemy units and taking out units with low wounds and models which I run as 3 units of 6-8. and 2 is for screening, body guarding low wound characters moving up the table like the C'tan, Suicidal Combat and "easy" targets for smite-spam and PL VP games which I run in 5-6 units of 3 I like having Immortals and Warriors to take out what the Scarabs Fall back from or to shoot at a unit before they try to charge.

They're cheaper than warriors

point vs point the warriors are cheaper at 12pts per model and Scarabs are 13pts per model

and get respawned by the spyders.

Remember that on a roll 1 to regenerating Scarabs your Spyder will take D3 MW. Try and use your CP on them if any show up.

So new and revised comp list:

Spoiler:

1x Pylon
1x Lord w/Scythe
1x Toholk
2x Spyders (Both in one squad) w/ FCA, twin PB
9x Scarabs
9x Scarabs
9x Scarabs
9x Scarabs
1xTA w/ Tesla
1x DDA
1x Gauss sentry pylon.

What about this for 2 extra CP?


You could spawn the Sentry Pylon for Some warriors or Immortals for a good steady gun line.

pound for pound our swarms do better than the rest.

Immortals and Flayed Ones are great anti-horde as well.

Claas wrote:
So am I in the minority here for loving particle shredders on my stalkers? I been running them heavy gauss and keeping them in my backfield, but I switched to playing more aggressively with them with ps.. S7 is a weird niche but the 6 shots are needed. Most my lists have heavy destroyers and a dda so I haven't missed the at of heavy gauss that much.

If you already feel you got enough of those, I can see the Shredder being useful due to having more shots vs objective campers and whatnot.

Flayed ones are amazing at killing conscripts, and pair really well with a deceiver redeploy, or any ctan really. (you can use a c'tan to either snipe commissars or delete 1/6 of the conscript blobs per turn)

20 flayed ones are 80 attacks at STR 4 AP 0 rerolling wounds. You can give them MWBD and buff them with reroll hits (imotekh) and +1 attack (anrakyr).

Let's say you have anrakyr and use MWBD on them, so 100 attacks hitting on 2 and wounding on 3, rerolling wounds.

83.33 hits, 74.07 wounds, 5+ save, 49.38 kills ON AVERAGE.

If they get overwatched by 100 lasgun shots, they will lose 2-3 models, so being generous to the enemy, 85 attacks, 70.83 hits, 62.96 wounds, 41.92 kills.

If you also throw in rerolling hits (imotekh) then they have 57.61 non-overwatch kills or 48.90 post-overwatch kills, but at this point you are maybe better off taking a c'tan shard and nab 8-9 kills before charging in.

So grab a deceiver redeploy, taking anrakyr and maybe a 5 man lychguard or 10 man tesla immortals and then calling in the flayed ones. Only problem is you can't MWBD something after it deep strikes (beginning of movement vs end of movement) but the Timmortals are a really good target for MWBD too.

 Odrankt wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


It got me thinking. My list has lots of high health, high damage weapons but severely lacks in the horde killing capabilities.

I realised the answer.

Scarab spam.

As far as Scarab spam goes it isn't that reliable of a way of taking out a list unless backed up by shooty units. You want your Scarabs to;

Spoiler:

1) Have them survive as much as possible and make sure you have a good few of them for Turn 4 on wards.

2) You want them to lock your opponents most threatening unit up so that they soak up CC damage, put your units in place, fall back the Scarabs to a Spyder to regenerate a Scarab if any was lost and (if any) in some LOS blocking terrain. Then, shoot the fuq out of your opponents held up unit and do the same thing over and over.

3) if you do want them to take on units then make sure the unit has lost several wounds/models so when you attack 1st you have a better chance at leaving the Scarabs survive as the won't be attack in CC unless stated otherwise.

I usually put my Scarabs in two different profiles. 1 is for Objective Scouring, holding up enemy units and taking out units with low wounds and models which I run as 3 units of 6-8. and 2 is for screening, body guarding low wound characters moving up the table like the C'tan, Suicidal Combat and "easy" targets for smite-spam and PL VP games which I run in 5-6 units of 3 I like having Immortals and Warriors to take out what the Scarabs Fall back from or to shoot at a unit before they try to charge.

They're cheaper than warriors

point vs point the warriors are cheaper at 12pts per model and Scarabs are 13pts per model

and get respawned by the spyders.

Remember that on a roll 1 to regenerating Scarabs your Spyder will take D3 MW. Try and use your CP on them if any show up.

So new and revised comp list:

Spoiler:

1x Pylon
1x Lord w/Scythe
1x Toholk
2x Spyders (Both in one squad) w/ FCA, twin PB
9x Scarabs
9x Scarabs
9x Scarabs
9x Scarabs
1xTA w/ Tesla
1x DDA
1x Gauss sentry pylon.

What about this for 2 extra CP?

Spoiler:

+++ Klowny (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [105 PL, 1998pts] +++

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++

+ HQ +

Lord: Hyperphase Sword

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs: 8x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Scarabs: 8x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Scarabs: 8x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

+ Heavy Support +

(FW) Tesseract Ark
. Two Tesla Cannons: 2x Tesla Cannon

Doomsday Ark

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++

+ HQ +

(FW) Toholk the Blinded

Lord: Hyperphase Sword

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

+ Heavy Support +

(FW) Sentry Pylon: Teleportation Matrix
. Sentry Pylon: Gauss Exterminator

Canoptek Spyders
. Canoptek Spyder: Fabricator Claw Array
. Canoptek Spyder: Fabricator Claw Array

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Necrons) ++

+ Lord of War +

(FW) Gauss Pylon

You could spawn the Sentry Pylon for Some warriors or Immortals for a good steady gun line.

pound for pound our swarms do better than the rest.

Immortals and Flayed Ones are great anti-horde as well.

f

Its too many units, I thought of going that way, but unfortunately im trying to keep my drops down with the aim of going first to maximize alpha strike. The list is focused on the power of the pylon, and the scarabs in the 4x9 bases I have a T2 57" Area of Denial if they have deep striking threats. That way when they kill the scarabs, if they dont kill the squad i take from the front, causing them to be out of combat without having to fall back, and then regen 2 per scarab squad a turn.

I will definetly use CP to reroll spyder 1's. Good idea. I turtle the vehicles around the pylon so everything has 5++ and the arks have QS, and i regen 3d3 wounds a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crunkDealer wrote:
Flayed ones are amazing at killing conscripts, and pair really well with a deceiver redeploy, or any ctan really. (you can use a c'tan to either snipe commissars or delete 1/6 of the conscript blobs per turn)

20 flayed ones are 80 attacks at STR 4 AP 0 rerolling wounds. You can give them MWBD and buff them with reroll hits (imotekh) and +1 attack (anrakyr).

Let's say you have anrakyr and use MWBD on them, so 100 attacks hitting on 2 and wounding on 3, rerolling wounds.

83.33 hits, 74.07 wounds, 5+ save, 49.38 kills ON AVERAGE.

If they get overwatched by 100 lasgun shots, they will lose 2-3 models, so being generous to the enemy, 85 attacks, 70.83 hits, 62.96 wounds, 41.92 kills.

If you also throw in rerolling hits (imotekh) then they have 57.61 non-overwatch kills or 48.90 post-overwatch kills, but at this point you are maybe better off taking a c'tan shard and nab 8-9 kills before charging in.

So grab a deceiver redeploy, taking anrakyr and maybe a 5 man lychguard or 10 man tesla immortals and then calling in the flayed ones. Only problem is you can't MWBD something after it deep strikes (beginning of movement vs end of movement) but the Timmortals are a really good target for MWBD too.

Flayed ones are just too expensive for what they offer to justify IMO.

jumping in on the thread, watched a couple of battle reports and warrior spam just looks hilarious with the reanimation rolls.

I have a bunch (like 60-80) in a box somewhere is it worth painting them for a somewhat decent force?

thinking 80, like 960pts
then 1000pts on fun stuff to deliver them like night sythes, monolths, ghost arcs and crypteks in there.

just seems a bit bonkers and a tough nut to crack, or am i missing something.

 Latro_ wrote:
jumping in on the thread, watched a couple of battle reports and warrior spam just looks hilarious with the reanimation rolls.

I have a bunch (like 60-80) in a box somewhere is it worth painting them for a somewhat decent force?

thinking 80, like 960pts
then 1000pts on fun stuff to deliver them like night sythes, monolths, ghost arcs and crypteks in there.

just seems a bit bonkers and a tough nut to crack, or am i missing something.

It can be fun. Deciever 40 up front t1 for lots of gauss death. They need lords just as much as they need GA and crypteks. I'd bring one of each per 40, they need to be properly supported to work well.

Guard are strong against them, 50 conscripts in rapidfire range does way more damage to the warriors than 20-40 warriors can dish back.

Necrons and ETC 2017 in Spain.

Only 6 necron armies on ETC this year. As axpected necron are low tier army in 8th edition competetive scene. One positive thing is, that list are quite varied. Top teams ignore necrons completely.

Austria

Belgium

Ireland

Netherland

Northern Ireland

Switzerland

That's actually some serious variety. No Destroyers strikes me as bizarre though as I really do think they're our sleeper hit.

I don't wanna exactly throw stones from my glass house of not even having actually played a game of 8th outside my house yet but those are some truly awful lists that i don't think come close to being representative of the competitive scene?
Like the first list takes a million ccbs but they can't actually use command wave on anything? There are multiple instances of multiple doom scythes, one of our only universal 'do not take' units. The last 2 lists at least look like they read the index but can only do like 2 wounds to flyers a turn if they run into a stormraven spam list. Only the ireland list seems marginally viable and it's pretty far from optimized.

CCB, wraith, Doom Scythes, Anni barge spam? I'm just not seeing it. How do they deal with double knight Magnus lists? Or stormraven, or any list with more than one big monster. Anni barge spam is good against hordes, but which horde is at the top tables?

 Actinium wrote:
I don't wanna exactly throw stones from my glass house of not even having actually played a game of 8th outside my house yet but those are some truly awful lists that i don't think come close to being representative of the competitive scene?
Like the first list takes a million ccbs but they can't actually use command wave on anything? There are multiple instances of multiple doom scythes, one of our only universal 'do not take' units. The last 2 lists at least look like they read the index but can only do like 2 wounds to flyers a turn if they run into a stormraven spam list. Only the ireland list seems marginally viable and it's pretty far from optimized.

 Klowny wrote:
CCB, wraith, Doom Scythes, Anni barge spam? I'm just not seeing it. How do they deal with double knight Magnus lists? Or stormraven, or any list with more than one big monster. Anni barge spam is good against hordes, but which horde is at the top tables?

ETC is team tournament with regular pairing. This lists are not viable on solo tournaments. And how you can see this list are mostly pure defenders (except the north ireland list ofc.) In normal circumstances they will never meet magnus or flyers :-D

Rezolut wrote:

 Actinium wrote:
I don't wanna exactly throw stones from my glass house of not even having actually played a game of 8th outside my house yet but those are some truly awful lists that i don't think come close to being representative of the competitive scene?
Like the first list takes a million ccbs but they can't actually use command wave on anything? There are multiple instances of multiple doom scythes, one of our only universal 'do not take' units. The last 2 lists at least look like they read the index but can only do like 2 wounds to flyers a turn if they run into a stormraven spam list. Only the ireland list seems marginally viable and it's pretty far from optimized.

 Klowny wrote:
CCB, wraith, Doom Scythes, Anni barge spam? I'm just not seeing it. How do they deal with double knight Magnus lists? Or stormraven, or any list with more than one big monster. Anni barge spam is good against hordes, but which horde is at the top tables?

ETC is team tournament with regular pairing. This lists are not viable on solo tournaments. And how you can see this list are mostly pure defenders (except the north ireland list) ofc.) In normal circumstances they will never meet magnus or flyers :-D

Must say I don't know the details of the tournament so maybe was quick to jump the gun.

But saying we aren't competitive given the tools we have at our disposal isn't a correct assumption either. Magnus and knights, stormraven guilliman, conscript blob, razorwing etc are all strong lists, and most of the heavy hitters I've seen have big guns screened by chaff.

Spamming doom scythes I cannot understand at all. A lot of people will have good AA defence (to fight stormraven spam) and our flyers are terrible at what they do anyway. They're not defensive, neither are they terribly offensive. Anni barges are good against hordes but tesla Immortals get the job done better, however they are slow.

Scarab spam is good.... when it has other stuff to actually do the heavy lifting.

Only one list has decent heavy hitters, the rest are just fast units, good for board control and to quasi tar pit, but not much else.

I didn't mean to sound condescending or insulting at all, just a bit perplexed.

Those are lists for team tournaments.

The A Barge spam list looks pretty optimal for getting paired up against a horde army.

Not sure what Doom Scythe spam is meant to go up against.


But yeah, if you are going to spam Necron stuff, make sure its DDAs, TAs, Sentry Pylons, Scarabs, or Immortals.

Maybe they figure 8x5 times S7 exploding dice will hurt knights/vehicles as well as hordes. Those lists are fast enough to focus one down at a time and occupy the rest with 1 or 2 scarab swarms.
I don't get the doomscythes either. When your main gun is 4+ to hit, do they just rely on more tesla destructors and hope for some decent shots with the other one?

With the ccb spam list, I think k the idea is that they all buff each other, and go on a killing spree together.

col_impact wrote:
Those are lists for team tournaments.

The A Barge spam list looks pretty optimal for getting paired up against a horde army.

Not sure what Doom Scythe spam is meant to go up against.


But yeah, if you are going to spam Necron stuff, make sure its DDAs, TAs, Sentry Pylons, Scarabs, or Immortals.

Agree. I feel the more common vehicle and scarab spam is, the more valuable spyders are. Regen both vehicles and scarab swarms each turn for relatively cost free?? Can take multiple in a single unit reducing drop numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nagerash wrote:
Maybe they figure 8x5 times S7 exploding dice will hurt knights/vehicles as well as hordes. Those lists are fast enough to focus one down at a time and occupy the rest with 1 or 2 scarab swarms.
I don't get the doomscythes either. When your main gun is 4+ to hit, do they just rely on more tesla destructors and hope for some decent shots with the other one?

With the ccb spam list, I think k the idea is that they all buff each other, and go on a killing spree together.

4 warscythes a killing spree does not make. Even with wraith screens.

Yeah Anni barges put out lots of dakka, buuuut they're fragile. TA put out way more dakka, threaten more targets, while being much more durable and degrade less. Same goes for DDA.

CCBarges are vehicles, not infantry, so they can't even target each other. Also even assuming they couldn't use forgeworld stuff abarges are still like 4pts per wound less efficient defensively than ddarks and a mountain worse than silver tide. Maybe because the boards were really big they felt they needed the 12" move and assault weapon? I don't know. It's too weird a format to draw any meaningful conclusions from if these are the best lists for it.

Yeah. DDA are literally better in in every way than DS. Cheaper, tougher, hit better, outrange them. DDA can even camp backfield objectives, put out more dakka at close range. Cannot for the life of me understand that list.

A quick question. If it tournament legal to use a AOS model as a replacement for a 40k model as soon it's clearly defined to an opponent?

mrWermut wrote:
A quick question. If it tournament legal to use a AOS model as a replacement for a 40k model as soon it's clearly defined to an opponent?

You'd have to check with the TO, but a lot are cool with it, especially if it's an obvious proxy/there isn't a model for it.

I just saw a batrep on miniwargamings vault where an AM player completely tore apart a decent necron list played by a decent necron player. And for the (un)good of mankind I cannot see how to possibly counter it.

He had 5 artillery pieces in one corner, an HQ that gave them reroll 1s to hit. Pask. 4 units of guardsmen, 5 or 6 bulgryns. 4 single scount sentinels. And releant HQs to support it all, all in all one battallion and one brigade. infinity comand points.

Necron fielded 2x20 warriors, 10 immortals, 10 sword & board lychguard, 1 overlord, 2 crypiteks, 5 destroyers

Going first turn 1 (after seize) AM had no problems wiping an entire unit of 20 warriors first turn, and sucessively moved on to blow necrons off the table one unit at the time. Guardsmen and bulgryns bogged everything down midfield, and heavy artilery just shot dead anything that needed shooting, with comandpoints to prevent important rolls goind bad.

There were enough AM models on his half to prevent any meaningul deep strike, and bulgryns dealt with lychguard easily enough, and with the help of rapidfiring gadzillions of lasgns easily ate anything that walked up midfield.

I just don't see any counter to something like that.

torblind wrote:
5 artillery pieces in one corner, an HQ that gave them reroll 1s to hit. Pask. 4 units of guardsmen, 5 or 6 bulgryns. 4 single scount sentinels. And releant HQs to support it all
[...]
I just don't see any counter to something like that.

... mass flyers?

torblind wrote:
I just saw a batrep on miniwargamings vault where an AM player completely tore apart a decent necron list played by a decent necron player. And for the (un)good of mankind I cannot see how to possibly counter it.

He had 5 artillery pieces in one corner, an HQ that gave them reroll 1s to hit. Pask. 4 units of guardsmen, 5 or 6 bulgryns. 4 single scount sentinels. And releant HQs to support it all, all in all one battallion and one brigade. infinity comand points.

Necron fielded 2x20 warriors, 10 immortals, 10 sword & board lychguard, 1 overlord, 2 crypiteks, 5 destroyers

Going first turn 1 (after seize) AM had no problems wiping an entire unit of 20 warriors first turn, and sucessively moved on to blow necrons off the table one unit at the time. Guardsmen and bulgryns bogged everything down midfield, and heavy artilery just shot dead anything that needed shooting, with comandpoints to prevent important rolls goind bad.

There were enough AM models on his half to prevent any meaningul deep strike, and bulgryns dealt with lychguard easily enough, and with the help of rapidfiring gadzillions of lasgns easily ate anything that walked up midfield.

I just don't see any counter to something like that.

Lychguard are an atrocious choice against guard.

I've played a few games now against lists like this.

Won them all.

Here's what you do. You need long range dakka to kill the tanks, and you need it durable. So you need DDA/TA, pylons etc. Destroyers are just pathetic compared to them in this instance.

You need fast units with lots of wounds to take care of conscripts/guard. Scarabs. They wreck face in CC against chaff, have a bucketload of attacks and wounds.

DONT EXPECT TO COME EVEN CLOSE TO TABLING HIM (this isn't 7th anymore ), and expect all but your vehicles to be dead by the end of the game. Warriors die to 200 lasgun shots a turn, even in bricks in cover with a cryptek. You can alpha strike 40 warriors and the Deciever into the frontline as 70% of the time your going first.you need a brutal alpha strike, you need fast units to win by objectives. We have both of these. Play with this in mind and neuter his biggest threats T1.

2 DDA and a stalker are crippling 2-3 tanks a turn, and then they're free to hammer whatever needs it. 40 warriors will put a big dent into lots of things, focus autocannon HWT or anything with plasma. Let your scarabs grab objectives initially, when the their tanks are dead get your vehicles or anything else to soak overwatch (warriors are good here due to RP), and then let your little bugs get to shredding.

So to win against this list you need
Turn 1
DDA's
Stalkers
Pylons
Tesseract Arks
Lots of scarabs
40 warriors and Deciever. (Optional, but Gi them into cover and they're a tough frontline so long as the alpha strike shreds enough dakka t1)


Play to objectives and win against his painfully slow guard, kill the tanks first and then any fast units.

Guard are top tier this edition, but even eldar could be beaten in 7th

I see, sounds so easy when you say it like that.

QS protects my DDAs against their tanks then?

So long as you get the alpha strike your fine, play to objectives.

Yea we are safe against tanks, the only things we have to worry about are DS scion plasma spam (fixable by scarab spam) and HWT with autocannons or plasma, as they do 2 damage, so it pretty much negates the QS.

Some scarabs will then hold back and block scions from deep striking? And when done, move up to feed?

For those that have the FW tomb stalker/sentinel, how big are they? Or better yet what size base do they come with?

cheesedupree wrote:
For those that have the FW tomb stalker/sentinel, how big are they? Or better yet what size base do they come with?

The 90x120mm oval base used for flyers.

How does the Deceiver's Grand Illusion interact with other "before the first battle round begins" type rules?

I played a game today against a a Guard player with Scout Sentinels (they also have a similar redeploy 9" rule) and it did not seem clear to us which player redeploys first.

We ended up deciding that the player with the first turn should redeploy before the other, but I'm not completely sure thats correct.

Does anyone have a idea on the correct order?

torblind wrote:
Some scarabs will then hold back and block scions from deep striking? And when done, move up to feed?

Yep I ran 13 in my game the other day and that's was all of my deployment zone on vanguard.

I'm planning on running 36 in the future...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

unbaraki wrote:
How does the Deceiver's Grand Illusion interact with other "before the first battle round begins" type rules?

I played a game today against a a Guard player with Scout Sentinels (they also have a similar redeploy 9" rule) and it did not seem clear to us which player redeploys first.

We ended up deciding that the player with the first turn should redeploy before the other, but I'm not completely sure thats correct.

Does anyone have a idea on the correct order?

You roll off, and whoever wins decides the sequencing for things that happen before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round.

 Klowny wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

unbaraki wrote:
How does the Deceiver's Grand Illusion interact with other "before the first battle round begins" type rules?

I played a game today against a a Guard player with Scout Sentinels (they also have a similar redeploy 9" rule) and it did not seem clear to us which player redeploys first.

We ended up deciding that the player with the first turn should redeploy before the other, but I'm not completely sure thats correct.

Does anyone have a idea on the correct order?

You roll off, and whoever wins decides the sequencing for things that happen before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round.

Thanks for the response!

Can you reference a source for the roll off? Or is this just the classic roll to decide when you disagree with the opponent rule?

Under the sequencing heading in the BrB

Fantastic! I cant believe we missed it before. Much appreciated Klowny.


Here's another Grand Illusion question.


Lets say we've used GI to place a Ghost Ark loaded with Nemesor Zahndrekh 12" away before the first round

On my turn, Zahndrekh can exit the transport and shuffle his 5" forward.
Can he attempt the 7" charge?

If Vargard Obyron is chilling with 10 LychGuard someplace, at the end of the movement phase he and his friends can move to Zakndrekh within a 6" bubble but at least 1" away from the enemy.
Can they attempt the 1" charge?


I mean, its an insane point sink to move those units, but it's technically all good RAW?

Yep 100% legal, he is just disembarking from a transport

unbaraki wrote:
Grand Illusion question.

Lets say we've used GI to place a Ghost Ark loaded with Nemesor Zahndrekh 12" away before the first round

On my turn, Zahndrekh can exit the transport and shuffle his 5" forward.
Can he attempt the 7" charge?

If Vargard Obyron is chilling with 10 LychGuard someplace, at the end of the movement phase he and his friends can move to Zakndrekh within a 6" bubble but at least 1" away from the enemy.
Can they attempt the 1" charge?

I mean, its an insane point sink to move those units, but it's technically all good RAW?

What you are describing is one of the earlier variations of the "Deceiver Bomb".
It works, but it's just not very efficient. We've since leaned in favor of shooting based alpha strikes.

 skoffs wrote:

unbaraki wrote:
Grand Illusion question.

Lets say we've used GI to place a Ghost Ark loaded with Nemesor Zahndrekh 12" away before the first round

On my turn, Zahndrekh can exit the transport and shuffle his 5" forward.
Can he attempt the 7" charge?

If Vargard Obyron is chilling with 10 LychGuard someplace, at the end of the movement phase he and his friends can move to Zakndrekh within a 6" bubble but at least 1" away from the enemy.
Can they attempt the 1" charge?

I mean, its an insane point sink to move those units, but it's technically all good RAW?

What you are describing is one of the earlier variations of the "Deceiver Bomb".
It works, but it's just not very efficient. We've since leaned in favor of shooting based alpha strikes.

Do you happen to know where in the thread the more modern deceiver bombs are? I was still looking at the old methods.

Other than a pylon what are some good necron counters to flyers?

We never really had any in the past. Forgeworld was our only within codex options, which is why Tau use to be a normal add-in for their optional use of Skyfire.

Now, it is just someone with MWBD giving out +1 to hit as a counter to "Hard to Hit" making infantry hit on normal 3+'s

ski107 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
What you are describing is one of the earlier variations of the "Deceiver Bomb".
It works, but it's just not very efficient. We've since leaned in favor of shooting based alpha strikes.

Do you happen to know where in the thread the more modern deceiver bombs are? I was still looking at the old methods.

Everyone kind of came to the consensus that most of the Deceiver Bombs weren't very viable. The combat versions, anyway.
The most common one is just Deceiver + two big units of Warriors. Simple but a pain in the ass for your opponent to deal with.
If you want to be ridiculous you add in a couple Night Scythes or Monoliths and have the shooters disembark on turn one, combining their fire for a decent amount of Dakka.
But really you're probably better off just running it simply. If you want, you could throw in a Ghost Ark with some HQ in it to run up the board to support them turn two. Stick a couple Doomsday Arks in the back field to lend their fire support and you have the core of a list.

Behold the ridiculousness-

How do you guys feel about a 10 man Flayed Ones unit? Is that just too small? I figure that in any list, you would have bigger shooting threats, so if they overreact on the flayed ones and blow them away that's probably fine. It's also nice having something that can deepstrike in and add pressure against a problem unit. I'm just wondering if you need to go all in on a max size squad. I'm also wondering if Deathmarks aren't just better.

For backfield disruption I think Tomb Sentinels or Tomb Stalkers are a better deal than Flayed Ones.

If you can figure out a way to reliable buff a unit of Flayed Ones with an HQ then I think they could be a solid pick. The problem is our HQs are slow except for the CCB.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
How do you guys feel about a 10 man Flayed Ones unit? Is that just too small? I figure that in any list, you would have bigger shooting threats, so if they overreact on the flayed ones and blow them away that's probably fine. It's also nice having something that can deepstrike in and add pressure against a problem unit. I'm just wondering if you need to go all in on a max size squad. I'm also wondering if Deathmarks aren't just better.

Efficiency wise they are cost prohibitive for their points.

Warriors in cover with a cryptek and GA nearby can still die very quickly to focused fire, imagine how long an unbuffed lonely squad of flayed ones will last, not that long at all. And a max squad is 420 points, for like 50 more points you can take a tesseract vault or a pylon...

What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

 Pepe96 wrote:
What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

Sort of. Tesla weapons are usually 24" range anyway, and the stronger variants tend to be on fast platforms.
Scythes won't care, and annihilation barges generally won't care. Immortals will care though.
Note that only infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts get the CT. Vehicles can be targeted normally.

Also, its hit rolls when shooting. For obvious reasons; it ceases to apply when you are 12" away.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
How do you guys feel about a 10 man Flayed Ones unit? Is that just too small? I figure that in any list, you would have bigger shooting threats, so if they overreact on the flayed ones and blow them away that's probably fine. It's also nice having something that can deepstrike in and add pressure against a problem unit. I'm just wondering if you need to go all in on a max size squad. I'm also wondering if Deathmarks aren't just better.

I reckon Flayed Ones are more a go big or go home strategy. 40 of them (2x20) seems better to me.

 Pepe96 wrote:
What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

Had a game with me playing harlequins and the opponent tesla heavy Necrons. He did stop shooting my 'weavers with tesla on vehicles as much as he could. But he was still tossing MWBD on the Immortals so at least they can still proc on 6s.

 Draco765 wrote:

 Pepe96 wrote:
What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

Had a game with me playing harlequins and the opponent tesla heavy Necrons. He did stop shooting my 'weavers with tesla on vehicles as much as he could. But he was still tossing MWBD on the Immortals so at least they can still proc on 6s.

An eldar player in the necron thread? I detect a spy!

How do the 8ed eldar/clowns hold up to the Necrons?
Any wisdom you can impart?

Okay, so min sized Warrior units are inadvisable as they're too easy to wipe, thus negating RP.
And QS spam is pretty good because your opponent will have trouble trying to deal with it all.
...
But what if you spam Ghost Arks full of Warriors?
Troops + Transport = 290 points.
In a 2000 point list you can fit six of them, plus a couple of Crypteks (and 4 Scarabs to make it an even 2000). That's one GA+W squad for every objective.
Would something like this actually be able to do much?

Blow up the star weavers, force them to footslog it. Turtle and force them through screens of chaff that they can't fall back past because there is no space.

Scarabs are actually much, much better against harlies than warriors. 9 are cheaper than 10 warriors, and have more wounds, have the mobility to get the charge off, and if not due to map type they are a much more durable screen capable of mitigating their CC damage enough that our guns can blast them off the board. TA and DDA are good here. TA fleshbane flamer and tesla cannon for the players, or high power for the starweavers.

They're an elite army, so put enough shots on them and kablamo

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, so min sized Warrior units are inadvisable as they're too easy to wipe, thus negating RP.
In a 2000 point list you can fit six of them, plus a couple of Crypteks (and 4 Scarabs to make it an even 2000). That's one GA+W squad for every objective.
Would something like this actually be able to do much?

And than u'll meet a pack of Imperial Knights or 5 Stormravens with Guilliman.
I believe that worriors are great to stand, but they aren't designed for damage dealing.

mrWermut wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, so min sized Warrior units are inadvisable as they're too easy to wipe, thus negating RP.
In a 2000 point list you can fit six of them, plus a couple of Crypteks (and 4 Scarabs to make it an even 2000). That's one GA+W squad for every objective.
Would something like this actually be able to do much?

And than u'll meet a pack of Imperial Knights or 5 Stormravens with Guilliman.
I believe that worriors are great to stand, but they aren't designed for damage dealing.

Yeah I feel they are casual kings, but in competition, too expensive for what they offer, considering you need max squad size, a GA and a cryptek for them to really be durable, and even then focused fire will wipe all of that off the board quick smart.

Personally, necrons power this edition comes from our vehicles. Fast, durable, hard hitting for relatively cheap. For example, a DDA is only 84 odd points more expensive than 10 warriors, with the same gauss firepower, faster, more durable, more wounds that regenerate, and a massive gun. All with a better save. Warriors look crap next to them.

Every vehicle with a foot troop equivilant is either better than or on par with them (Anni barge).

We also have some of the best chaff in the game, easily spammable, and cheap as chips compared to the rest of the codex. But I've gone on enough about scarabs already.

Better save? It has a 4+ like warriors. Unless you count QS, but that's not really a save.

Is it worth taking 2 stalkers in 2000 points? I've bought two start collecting boxes but I'm not sure if I should build both.

Considering Ghost Ark, it is better than warriors equivalent . For same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4t in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

But the main difference is that an infantry unit may be buffed quite high, while a vehicle can not. So i don't personally think that and infantry pick is worst than and vehilce one for the same price.

Is it worth taking 2 stalkers in 2000 points?

Seems that it is not. What You reaaly need is 2 Doomsday cannons.

mrWermut wrote:
Considering Ghost Ark, it is better than warriors equivalent . For same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4t in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

But the main difference is that an infantry unit may be buffed quite high, while a vehicle can not. So i don't personally think that and infantry pick is worst than and vehilce one for the same price.

Is it worth taking 2 stalkers in 2000 points?

Seems that it is not. What You reaaly need is 2 Doomsday cannons.

I have two Doomsday arks - I might sell the second Stalker then, thanks

Nagerash wrote:

 Draco765 wrote:

 Pepe96 wrote:
What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

Had a game with me playing harlequins and the opponent tesla heavy Necrons. He did stop shooting my 'weavers with tesla on vehicles as much as he could. But he was still tossing MWBD on the Immortals so at least they can still proc on 6s.

An eldar player in the necron thread? I detect a spy!

How do the 8ed eldar/clowns hold up to the Necrons?
Any wisdom you can impart?

I actually play three armies, Necron were my first army, then I got into Khorne Daemonkin Chaos, and then recently Harlequins.

But, yeah once he was able to deal with the Starweavers holding the Troupes, they were easily wiped off the board with the Tesla. The only good thing to know when facing Eldar is to remember that Wraiths fall pretty quickly to Smite Spam, but that is common when facing any army that can cast that.

interviglium wrote:
I have two Doomsday arks - I might sell the second Stalker then, thanks

I would suggest You to wait until the new Codex arrives.

mrWermut wrote:
Considering Ghost Ark, it is better than warriors equivalent . For same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4t in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

But the main difference is that an infantry unit may be buffed quite high, while a vehicle can not. So i don't personally think that and infantry pick is worst than and vehilce one for the same price.

Is it worth taking 2 stalkers in 2000 points?

Seems that it is not. What You reaaly need is 2 Doomsday cannons.

A GA could be considered a buff for the warriors, while the DDA is a straight comparison.

Additionally, while warriors can be buffed, it's more of a points sink, your looking at a cryptek and lord, so around an extra 100 points, for relatively no damage output, compared to a stalker which is synergistic and has a higher damage output, more survivable and is faster than a footslogging cryptek and lord.

mrWermut wrote:
For the same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4T in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

Huh, I hadn't thought about it like that.

I guess their other downside (in addition to not getting cover as easily) would be contesting objectives with them wouldn't really work, as you need superior numbers there.

Nice point, though.
-If you want Gauss flayers, consider taking a Ghost Ark instead of Warriors. (similar points (170 vs 168) gets you the same amount of wounds, but less shots (10 vs 14) on a faster tougher body with the same save.)
-If you want Tesla, consider taking an Annihilation Barge instead of Immortals. (similar points (146 vs 136) gets you the same amount of wounds but less shots (11 S6-7 vs 16 S5) on a faster tougher body, though a worse save.)
-If you want Heavy Gauss Cannons, consider taking Triarch Stalkers instead of Heavy Destroyers (30 point difference (181 vs 150) gets you 4 more wounds (10 vs 6) and the same shots on a tougher body with the same speed and save.)

Pro: they all get QS.
Con: they all deteriorate in effectiveness.

 skoffs wrote:

mrWermut wrote:
For the same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4T in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

Huh, I hadn't thought about it like that.

I guess their other downside (in addition to not getting cover as easily) would be contesting objectives with them wouldn't really work, as you need superior numbers there.

Nice point, though.
-If you want Gauss flayers, consider taking a Ghost Ark instead of Warriors. (similar points (170 vs 168) gets you the same amount of wounds, but less shots (10 vs 14) on a faster tougher body with the same save.)
-If you want Tesla, consider taking an Annihilation Barge instead of Immortals. (similar points (146 vs 136) gets you the same amount of wounds but less shots (11 S6-7 vs 16 S5) on a faster tougher body, though a worse save.)
-If you want Heavy Gauss Cannons, consider taking Triarch Stalkers instead of Heavy Destroyers (30 point difference (181 vs 150) gets you 4 more wounds (10 vs 6) and the same shots on a tougher body with the same speed and save.)

Pro: they all get QS.
Con: they all deteriorate in effectiveness.

But they all regen wounds, and I know it's not much, and RP can kick in and save you, but it's not reliable. A smart general can work around QS only if he has the specific weapons that aren't too spammed in comparison to lascannons etc, whereas no matter his built/list he can easily negate RP.

In response to holding objectives, if your spamming vehicles, you need screens. Fast screens can rush and hold objectives if you have enough held back to protec the vehicles.

Hopefully they adjust it in the codex, but right now most of our infantry combo's are too cost prohibitive to be competitive, especially when we go up against the nasty lists.

List building tactic question:
If we've got six Heavy Support choices in a Spearhead Detachment and an extra 80 points, is it worth adding a Sword-Lord to split / make a second detachment to get an additional Command Point, or to keep it just a single Spearhead and spend the points on 6 Scarabs?

The list in question-
Considered adding CCBs instead of Lords in a Ghost Ark, but don't know if they'd be pulling their weight-

 skoffs wrote:
List building tactic question:
If we've got six Heavy Support choices in a Spearhead Detachment and an extra 80 points, is it worth adding a Sword-Lord to split / make a second detachment to get an additional Command Point, or to keep it just a single Spearhead and spend the points on 6 Scarabs?

The list in question-

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [100 PL, 1999pts] ++

+ HQ +
Lord [5 PL, 84pts]: Warscythe
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword

+ Elites +
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 181pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 181pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs [6 PL, 117pts]: 9x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

+ Heavy Support +
Tesseract Ark [13 PL, 246pts] 2x Tesla Cannon
Tesseract Ark [13 PL, 246pts] 2x Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge [7 PL, 146pts]: Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge [7 PL, 146pts]: Tesla Cannon
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]

+ Dedicated Transport +
Ghost Ark [8 PL, 170pts]

Considered adding CCBs instead of Lords in a Ghost Ark, but don't know if they'd be pulling their weight-

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [102 PL, 1993pts] ++

+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge [10 PL, 162pts]: Tesla Cannon, Warscythe
Catacomb Command Barge [10 PL, 162pts]: Tesla Cannon, Warscythe

+ Elites +
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 181pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 181pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 65pts]: 5x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 52pts]: 4x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

+ Heavy Support +
Tesseract Ark [13 PL, 246pts] 2x Tesla Cannon
Tesseract Ark [13 PL, 246pts] 2x Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge [7 PL, 146pts]: Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge [7 PL, 146pts]: Tesla Cannon
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]

For the first list I would swap the GA for another DDA or Tesseract Ark. If your not using its Re-RP or to carry infantry then use a DDA as you still get the 2 Gauss Arrays but also the Cannon with 2 gun profiles for 33 more points. I'd swap both lords for Toholk for his d3 wounds to a vehicle and invest in more scarabs.

For the 2nd one I would drop a CCB and invest in more Scarabs.

So the additional CP is not worth the 76 points, then?

Personally, no.

I feel, CP are handy, but at the end of the day, rerolling a dice etc is not as valuable as more models on the table. For eg. A CP reroll might be critical for auto passing ld on 20x warriors, but if it came at the cost of another 10 warriors...

10 warriors can put out more damage than 20 RP'ing, because they are also shooting alongside the 20 T1, in addition to soaking fire from other targets etc.

In my comp list for example, I only have 4 CP, and will be saving them to reroll 1's on my scarab replenishment rolls.

The fight against the Blood Angels went better than expected. Expecially since he brought an entirely different list then what I expected.

Basically we switched roles. I had a force with 2 good cc units and he had a full dakka force...

Who the hell expects when you fight blood angels, that he is bringing 0 close combat units. At the start I had no idea what I was going to do with my Lychguard and Praetorians.

His List:


My List (I already posted it 1 page back):


I got to choose deployment and went for Search and destroy, so that I was as close as possible and my cc units could potentially get in combat with anything.
The mission was "The Relic" which was good for me, as that meant he couldn't go full defensive if he wanted to get near the middle and get that thing.
First turn my Stalker and Ark killed one of his Dreadnoughts he left in the open. The gauss cannons killed a few tact in a building.

His first turn his stormraven flew forwards and divided his shots between my Stalker and immortals. (I hid my Praetorians and lychguard out of sight to wait for an opportunity to counter attack)
after failing 5/6 3up saves (they were in cover with -1 AP), combined with the other shooting from the tank and stormraven killed all my immortals. the Dreadnought and rockets from the stormraven put 6 wounds on my stalker.

He kinda forgot that my Praetorians were flying, so put his stormraven too close. I MWBD the Praetorians with Anrakyr, and moved up.
I took control of the stormraven and shot at some tacticals in a wood (only ones in range), but doing nothing unfortunately. My Stalker and Ark both shot at the stormraven doing 2 or 3 wounds only,
but allowing me to reroll 1's which was crucial for the one shot wristcannon that anrakyr has + the shooting of the praetorians! When I assaulted with the Praetorians he had 5 wounds left, which the praetorians took care of with some slight lucky rolls (anrakyr wasn't in range for +1 attack unfortunately).
He did kill one praetorian (2x 1 wound) in overwatch. I also deepstruck my Deathmarks in a ruin near his bloodpriest trying to stop him from getting the tacticals back up. 20 shots only 1 '6' to wound he saved all the normal hits -_-.
While it was nice to have the option to shoot his characters and deepstrike a shooting squad somewhere, we should expect them to just draw some fire, RP some back and be annoying more than really expect them to remove characters. Unless you get lucky and roll 3/4 6's.

In his turn he fired everything in range at my praetorians now kinda stuck in the open, leaving 3 alive. I even saved my Stalker from dying with a lucky armor save of 6 from shooting of the Dreadnought (damn his 2 damage). and my Deathmarks were reduced to 1 guy (after morale) caused by smite, the other blood angel MW power and 4 bolters of the Dev squad. Altought the Lib did cause himself 1 MW with rolling 2 6's.

In my turn I had some lucky RP rolls: 4 Praetorians returned and 5 Deathmarks. I moved the Lychguard up towards the Relic who were guarding Anrakyr vs potential Flanking stormravens trying to shoot him. And moved Anrakyr + the Praetorians towards the grav cannon tact squad.
the gauss cannons of the ark and Deathmarks (they gave up on the 2+ save priest hiding in cover) finished off the already wounded plasma cannon tact squad, and the Ark and Stalker wounded the tank taking it down to 4 wounds. The scarabs charged the grav cannon squad taking overwatch.
The Praetorians followed. Removing the squad without many problems. The Praetorians consolidated towards the last tact squad which put them into the woods. and the scarabs followed them forming a screen.

In his turn he shot as much as he could at my Praetorians, only killing 3. His Lib blew himself up rolling 2 6's AGAIN! This time he rolled a 5 for his D3 MW perils which he rerolled into a 6 blowing himself up .
He even killed a guy for the dev squad and put wounds on the Tank and Dreadnought. The tacticals charged the scarabs hoping to wipe them and consolidate into the Praetorians, but with 5 tacticals, 1 sarge and 1 heavy weapon dude left 1 scarab alive with 1 wound
After seeing 3 Praetorians get back up again, and the Lychguard about to take the relic unopposed, he declared defeat. .

It was a very close game with good and bad rolling on both sides, but his main fault, I think, was puting his Stormraven too close and spreading out his units too much because of my Deathmarks, which really underpreformed.
That meant he couldn't bring enough dakka to finish my Stalker or Praetorians allowing me to keep the reroll 1 to hit for the entire game (which really helped my TA) and allowed my Praetorians to jump from squad to squad weathering the incomming fire.
He did learn a lot, but I guess he insulted the Sanguinor by not bringing any cc units .

I hope you enjoyed the writeup.

I enjoyed indeed, thanks!

I'm building immortals at the moment, on paper gauss looks better.. is it true everyone is using tesla?

Tesla is much more relevant this edition since our overlords have the ability to give +1 to hit, which causes tesla to kick in on 5+ on the die.

That being said, it depends what you are up against. Tesla for most hordes, if you are hitting things with armor saves to speak of and can keep them alive in rapid fire range, then blasters.

I'm worried If I make 30 immortals with tesla Gdub will faq or put in the codex that the +1 doesn't carry to the tesla rule..

Make 10 of each, play some games, and then decide the last 10

Invest in a pin vice and put a little dot of red paint on the wrist then dry fit them so the dot marks the same spot on both sides in the ideal pose, then drill little holes there and put a tiny length of paper clip or stapler staple glued to one side and snugly dry fit it into the other side, or fit it with soft generic elmer's school glue instead of super glue so it can be broken and separated easily later. It's basically a cheaper way to magnetize different options and it works on fits too thin to hold a magnet like an immortal wrist.

Whether gauss or tesla is better depends a lot on the popularity of -1 to hit effects like horror spam, flyer spam, raven guard chapter tactics etc. and also on the prevalence of cover bonuses on tables and also on if we ever get cheaper transports to help guarantee rapid fire ranges, so i wouldn't marry either option if i could help it.

dry fitting with pins is probably better than magnets as they will constantly lose their weapons with magnets that tiny. Super annoying during play.

 Actinium wrote:
fit it with soft generic elmer's school glue instead of super glue so it can be broken and separated easily later.

I do something similar. Works perfectly well, would recommend.

So, it just occurred to me that you can use a ghost ark to prevent a warrior squad from getting wiped by placing the squad in the GA, letting them get back up to 10 models, have them leave the transport and then just let them gain back models on the field.
So if you have something like 2-4 squads around the ark, rotating them around whenever they take too many casualties, you can have a rather durable little phalanx with just one ark.

As a defensive formation it might be great to lock down your backfield or sit on an important objective, but it's going to be pricey.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So, it just occurred to me that you can use a ghost ark to prevent a warrior squad from getting wiped by placing the squad in the GA, letting them get back up to 10 models, have them leave the transport and then just let them gain back models on the field.
So if you have something like 2-4 squads around the ark, rotating them around whenever they take too many casualties, you can have a rather durable little phalanx with just one ark.

As a defensive formation it might be great to lock down your backfield or sit on an important objective, but it's going to be pricey.

That ark won't last long. It's basically ensuring a turn where your warriors get less focused. Min 2 maaaaaaaybe 3 for 4 squads


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But otherwise yes I agree, very durable

Mobile Warrior bunker. I like it.
But would that mean you'd only need to be multiple taking units of 10 or do you still want to be taking 15-20 each?

You could still take large warrior units for this to work. Just cycle them in and out of the GA when they get below 10.
I, personally, already considered this and don't think it's worth it, due to how the embark/disembark rules work now.
You embark/disembark before movement so you lose a round of shooting to gain back 2 maybe 3 warriors. Not a great trade off in my opinion....especially because as soon as you disembark they'll be focus fired and wiped.

punisher357 wrote:
You could still take large warrior units for this to work. Just cycle them in and out of the GA when they get below 10.
I, personally, already considered this and don't think it's worth it, due to how the embark/disembark rules work now.
You embark/disembark before movement so you lose a round of shooting to gain back 2 maybe 3 warriors. Not a great trade off in my opinion....especially because as soon as you disembark they'll be focus fired and wiped.

I think it could work actually. Say you have a unit of 15. They get shot down to 3, in your turn you fck up your first rp roll and get only 2 back. You embark them in the transport. The second rp roll then bumps them up to 9 or so. The transport weathers a round of shooting, or the enemy is forced to focus your second full warrior squad of 15/20 warriors. In your turn again the first roll can only take them up to 10, you then disembark them and the second RP can get them back up further before firing again. And the ark is free to do it again if needed.