Anpu-adom wrote: Glad that you play for fun, Odrankt. You stumbled into the greatest collection of Necron Brains (IMHO) on the web...
They are going to do what they do best... optimize.
I'm having a lot of fun with my Imotekh and Flayed Ones decurion...
The Stormlord is hot garbage at the moment but Flayed Ones are actually a great choice, and more importantly can be a hard counter to Genestealer Cult lists, due to the impressive durability and infantry shredding for the points you pay.
IMHO, Flayed One have been a consistently adequate CC unit. A 10-man squad can shred MEQS and some TEQS, while being a decent tarpit.
necr0n wrote: [...] If tactics (mostly when list building) are irrelevant to you, then what's the point of posting in a Tactics thread?
[...]my list is for fun not competitive and just because its fun doesnt mean you couldn't be tactical with it. [...]
I think this is the crux of the issue.
You've posted this list to the tactics section when you probably meant to post it in the army list section.
Army list section posts can be pretty much anything, definitely the place to put something fun to get people's opinion on it.
Tactics posts tend to be more competitive minded. If someone posts a thing, other players are going to analyze it from a competitive mindset. If the thing posted could be improved, they're going to point out how to do so.
Though, in regards to
I would just rather someone suggest something like a few users have done instead of just degrading my D Lord w/ warriors.
You seem to be really stuck on that unit for some reason.
But for arguments sake, let's humour you.
So you're adding a 135+ point HQ to 130 points of troops.
Why?
To give them Preferred Enemy and increase the chances that their 10 to 20 shots will hit and to keep the unit alive longer.
You know what would be an even better way to do that?
Just replace the Destroyer Lord with another unit of Warriors.
Now you've got an even BETTER chance to hit and have a ton more wounds on the table.
If you're really dead set on keeping the Destroyer Lord, why not stick him with 10 CAD Immortals instead? They'll have better guns than the Warriors, AND they'll have Objective Secured!
Hey guys, if i'm running a decurion with canoptek harvest, is it overkill to throw in a 10-man flayed one pack for more cc? I've also got a VoD overlord with Lychguard for leading my rec legion.
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: Hey guys, if i'm running a decurion with canoptek harvest, is it overkill to throw in a 10-man flayed one pack for more cc? I've also got a VoD overlord with Lychguard for leading my rec legion.
It is absolutely not overkill. I highly encourage the running of Flayed Ones at the moment.
Re-rolling AP 2 melee and shooting sounds dangerous if not a bit cheesy.
Just checking that by 're-rolling ap2' you meant re-rolling just the 1's and not all failed? Biiiig difference.
Has anyone else tried a squad of 10 Praets with D/Lord? I feel they the most effective users of his PE buff, with high quality shots and good choppy choppy, where the Lawd loves to be anyway. Super fun.
I use the D/Lord in a tonne of my games, I absolutely adore him and he puts in so much work for me, I build CAD's around him. The only thing I havent tried him in is a DS squad of flayed ones. I know his PE isn't as helpful due to shred but it is a hell of an intimidating unit.
Recently my gaming group has been running small 500 point games, we play 3-4 games a night, bring a few lists/armies each and throw down. I have just built one of two of my sentry pylons, and want to give it a crack.
Talking to my mate about it tonight it has raised a few questions regarding cover saves.
Does the death ray ignore cover and you treat the hit from coming from underneath? Do you assume the beam comes from the pylon and intervening terrain/models grant cover? Or do you draw cover from the start of the beam, so if, for example, it started out in the open, and went over unit A and B, does unit A grant a 5+ cover save to unit B? Also, can the beam can shoot around corners/360 degree arc from the starting point even if the pylon doesn't have LoS to the ending point?
And im stuck between orikan and the D/lord for the game. Orikan means re-rolling saves on the pylon if he is attached to it, but can attach himself to one of my immortal squads to buff their RP/saving throws, wont reduce the T of the pylon if he attaches himself to it after going super sayian. Whereas the D/Lord is more focused on the pylon, has better defenses against the pylon if it gets charged, is more mobile, can tank wounds better straight away with a 2+ and T6, has armourbane (going against a mechanised skitarii list) makes the deathray more killy.
Dammit, I was leaning towards Orikan until I wrote this post out, now im at a loss.
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JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: Hey guys, if i'm running a decurion with canoptek harvest, is it overkill to throw in a 10-man flayed one pack for more cc? I've also got a VoD overlord with Lychguard for leading my rec legion.
I think this is the crux of the issue.
You've posted this list to the tactics section when you probably meant to post it in the army list section.
Army list section posts can be pretty much anything, definitely the place to put something fun to get people's opinion on it.
Tactics posts tend to be more competitive minded. If someone posts a thing, other players are going to analyze it from a competitive mindset. If the thing posted could be improved, they're going to point out how to do so.
Realistically, I only posted the list to give a different user a list they could try out for fun and non-competitive. Probably should of stated that before I put the list down. Probably would have saved a lot of confusion as to why it was D Lord w/ warriors. I didn't mean to post this in the army list fourm as I posted it for someone to use. I actually have a "competitive" list on that fourm if you would like to give your thoughts on the list.
I appricated people critiquing my list and making a better "version" of it. The more help the better. I'm also not denying peoples help I just wanted to state that my list was for fun and not competitive. However, people have only said stuff on my D Lord unit, i havn't had any replies to the rest of list/plan so I imagine everything else is okay?
Though, in regards to
I would just rather someone suggest something like a few users have done instead of just degrading my D Lord w/ warriors.
You seem to be really stuck on that unit for some reason.
But for arguments sake, let's humour you.
So you're adding a 135+ point HQ to 130 points of troops.
Why?
To give them Preferred Enemy and increase the chances that their 10 to 20 shots will hit and to keep the unit alive longer.
You know what would be an even better way to do that?
Just replace the Destroyer Lord with another unit of Warriors.
Now you've got an even BETTER chance to hit and have a ton more wounds on the table.
If you're really dead set on keeping the Destroyer Lord, why not stick him with 10 CAD Immortals instead? They'll have better guns than the Warriors, AND they'll have Objective Secured!
I meant that I would rather someone suggest different alternatives to my D Lord unit e.g. D Lord w/ Lynchguard, Praetorinas, Flayed Ones, Wraiths etc.I wasn't trying to get people to make it viable or try make it a better unit. Sorry for the confusing.
I will reply to what you have said though.
Why add D Lord in warriors? Just so I can re-roll 1s of To hit and To Wound. Does seem stupid to waste the PE on the warriors but again for non-competitive. I suppose 20 warriors is the same as D Lord with warriors in terms of To Hit and To Wound rolls. 5 points cheaper although I could filed 3 GAs instead of 2 GAs and 1 blob of 20 warriors. Be cheaper as well.
I could put him in the CAD immortals for better damage and for Objectives but I have 2 5 units of Immortals so If i was to have a unit of 10 Immortals I would need to field another Troop unit into the CAD to make it legal. Meaning I would need to lose 85 points fron somewhere to add it to the CAD.
Ok, so should my Decurion be that CC-heavy? I feel like i'm lacking in ranged firepower and should add something. If you guys want, I can post my current build, about 1850 pts.
Odrankt, your list was posted in the Tactics discussion as a suggestion for a fellow Necron player to use. As you suggested it, others tried to shape it up. If not for you, then for the person you suggested it to. Just like you suggested to him your list, the rest of the people suggested to him to change some elements of it and elaborated on your idea. That was not an attack to you, or your list. Nor did anyone imply YOU had to change how you played. As you also pointed out, it was a suggestion for another fellow necron player.
Although, my post was more of an answer to the latter posts, that complained about the comments, like the following:
Anpu-adom wrote: Glad that you play for fun, Odrankt. You stumbled into the greatest collection of Necron Brains (IMHO) on the web...
They are going to do what they do best... optimize.
I'm having a lot of fun with my Imotekh and Flayed Ones decurion...
As for the "optimizers", they make suggestions that in no shape or form are you forced to follow. They are friendly recomendations by people who have some experience on a game, army, matchup or unit and want to share it, by presenting arguments based on observations and logical assumptions.Everyone's goal is to help each other out and benefit from one another. It's a tactics discussion where everybody can put his own thoughts and observations. You can take what you want from it, but disrespecting someone's well-grounded advice, either by dismissing it with no arguments to back your claims up, or just straight up calling them names is, at the very least, weird.
EDIT:
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: Ok, so should my Decurion be that CC-heavy? I feel like i'm lacking in ranged firepower and should add something. If you guys want, I can post my current build, about 1850 pts.
Posting your list would greatly help everyone make more precise comments. As for the CC-heavy, well.. Necrons don't really get too shooty after the Tesla nerf, unfortunately, so you don't have many choices. It's either CC or ignore and survive for the most part. You can make shooty lists, for sure, but they just don't stack up too well versus other "shooty" lists. It also helps that some of our better units are CC oriented, as well as just about any useful HQ we can get (exept Zahndrekh). Having said that, a mix of both worlds is not that bad, like the classic Harvest + Dcult Decurion with some heavy warrior support (maybe GA's as well). Prets also combine both and they also (imo) are a star unit of the codex.
Re-rolling AP 2 melee and shooting sounds dangerous if not a bit cheesy.
Just checking that by 're-rolling ap2' you meant re-rolling just the 1's and not all failed? Biiiig difference.
Yea ha ha. I meant re-rolling 1s for Hits and Wounds, not re-rolling all missed Hits and Wounds. Sorry for the confusion. Still sounds bad ass though.
Has anyone else tried a squad of 10 Praets with D/Lord? I feel they the most effective users of his PE buff, with high quality shots and good choppy choppy, where the Lawd loves to be anyway. Super fun.
You are talking about the Rod of Covenent Praetorians yeah? I was wondering is the D Lord as good with Praetorians if you run them with Particle Pistols and Voidblades instead? Not that I would but just wondering if you have or would you think its better to stick with the Rods?
I use the D/Lord in a tonne of my games, I absolutely adore him and he puts in so much work for me, I build CAD's around him. The only thing I havent tried him in is a DS squad of flayed ones. I know his PE isn't as helpful due to shred but it is a hell of an intimidating unit.
I think that unit sounds good. PE isn't all that helpful but if you somehow still miss with the Shred it could be helpful. However, DS flayed ones with D Lord does sound scary with 100 attacks on charge for the FO and the attacks D Lord can do. Even if you can't charge the turn you DS you could use a res orb to make sure the FO are safe and can do 100 attacks on thier charge during the next turn. What artifacts/extras would you field the D Lord with if apart of this unit?
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necr0n wrote: Odrankt, your list was posted in the Tactics discussion as a suggestion for a fellow Necron player to use. As you suggested it, others tried to shape it up. If not for you, then for the person you suggested it to. Just like you suggested to him your list, the rest of the people suggested to him to change some elements of it and elaborated on your idea. That was not an attack kto you, or your list. Nor did anyone imply YOU had to change how you played. As you also pointed out, it was a suggestion for another fellow necron player.
That is a very fair point and one I should remember from now on. Thank you.
As for the "optimizers", they make suggestions that in no shape or form are you forced to follow. They are friendly recomendations by people who have some experience on a game, army, matchup or unit and want to share it, by presenting arguments based on observations and logical assumptions.Everyone's goal is to help each other out and benefit from one another. It's a tactics discussion where everybody can put his own thoughts and observations.
I appreciate the help. I would never turn it down. Believe me everyone here as helped me so far and I wish I could help people as well.
but disrespecting someone's well-grounded advice, either by dismissing it with no arguments to back your claims up, or just straight up calling them names is, at the very least, weird.
Disrespect? If i disrespected someone then I applogise. In no way shape or form would I want to disrespect someones oppion. Even if mine comes off that way. "calling them names"? I don't think I called anyone a name? If i did could you please show me where and I will also applogise if i did call someone a mean name.
Again sorry for any issues I have caused towards you or any other user. I rather be helpful to the community and not an a**hole.
Anpu-adom wrote: Glad that you play for fun, Odrankt. You stumbled into the greatest collection of Necron Brains (IMHO) on the web...
They are going to do what they do best... optimize.
I'm having a lot of fun with my Imotekh and Flayed Ones decurion...
The Stormlord is hot garbage at the moment but Flayed Ones are actually a great choice, and more importantly can be a hard counter to Genestealer Cult lists, due to the impressive durability and infantry shredding for the points you pay.
But Imotekh's storm is so much fun the turn that Battle Company piles out of their transports...
but disrespecting someone's well-grounded advice, either by dismissing it with no arguments to back your claims up, or just straight up calling them names is, at the very least, weird.
Disrespect? If i disrespected someone then I applogise. In no way shape or form would I want to disrespect someones oppion. Even if mine comes off that way. "calling them names"? I don't think I called anyone a name? If i did could you please show me where and I will also applogise if i did call someone a mean name.
Again sorry for any issues I have caused towards you or any other user. I rather be helpful to the community and not an a**hole.
Those comments were not directed towards you, for the biggest part. Although, you've been amazingly polite and I applaud that. Anonimity, language barriers and unorganized forum discussions make for those awkward situations. Back to Necrony goodness now!
May I ask why Tesla or Gauss for the Immortals? I like Tesla on the Night scythe but I always though Gauss was better for Troops?
It depends on what you plan to use the Immortals for. If they're more of a tax in your list, aka usually MSU, either 2 squads for a legal CAD (without any other investment or support in them, like HQ's/Transports etc) they are more "backfield objective holders", trying to draw fire some times when you need them, but most of the times just survive at the back or in LoS. For those squads tesla is slightly better, because you're most probably not finding yourself in 12" range and in 24" the tesla with the possible 6s outshines the Gauss. Undoubtedly, Gauss is better in rapid fire range, but the arguement is this squad will statistically get in rapid fire range rarely, if ever in your games.
If they're a 10 man strong squad that you plan to use for mid-field dominance with Destroyer lord support or a transport, I'd go for the Gauss. You're likely to find yourself in Rapid Fire range and in 24" the Gauss is still only slightly worse.
Generally, this is all very picky. In reality, the difference is very small and I suggest go with whatever you like best, or what you modeled. (Or wait for the new edition to choose your weapons!)
How about the D Lord w/ Praetorians? Maybe something like this
I like the core and base idea of your list. It's fast with GA's, jetbikes, wraiths and prets. One thing I suggest, since your prets and D.Lord are both not part of a Decurion and are both quite vulnerable, I'd go for the Nightmare Shroud+ warscythe+ Phase shifter. He'd go up to 190 points, but you could maybe reduce the Deathmark size to 5 or remove some upgrades here and there for that.
The arguement is that he can tank pretty well on a 2+ at T5 (majority) and 4++ and 5++ for a squad otherwise known as the glass canons of the codex. Even soaking a round of fire from a single side of the board is enough for the Prets, as they're really vulnerable, especially outside a Decurion.
The arguement for Warscythe vs Voidreaper is: Well, obviously, the Voidreaper is better since it has the benefit of Master crafted, which I can't argue against. The second and most important benefit is the Fleshbane SR. Your prets are hitting hard for sure, but you most probably don't want them to face something with toughness more than 5. They can slaughter MEQ and TEQ, but MC's.. I don't know if I'd go for that. Their lack of invulnerable save and low initiative makes them quite vulnerable and their STR5 means they will not hurt big things very much. You mostly want them MEQ hunting and the Warscythe (at str 7) is more than enough for that. The different only matters for T6+, which, I guess you don't want to find yourself in combat with. The prets differ with the Lychguard in the way that, they lychguard don't hit hard, but they can take a punch or two and let the HQ (destroyer lord or more) do the damage. The Prets don't have that luxury. If you only rely on your Void reaper to do damage with your prets, you're losing combat, because you're getting slaughtered in return.
Besides that, and this is personal preference, but I've come to dislike the Deathmark squad in Decurions that need an Aux. For me at least, they haven't ever worked like that. With no support, with no big numbers etc. A single small squad will not make a difference even with their SR's. I've found them more often than not killing something very insignificant and just dying or hiding in a shameful manner. Maybe, I haven't managed to learn how to field them effectively yet, but at least for me, the single squad won't work in lists not built arround them. Instead, I'd go for some Flayed Ones. They can pose a threat, tarpit or even be used as counter-charge to GSC as mentioned. That being said, I haven't used Flayed Ones too much myself, so I can't speak too much from my experience.
It depends on what you plan to use the Immortals for. If they're more of a tax in your list, aka usually MSU, either 2 squads for a legal CAD (without any other investment or support in them, like HQ's/Transports etc) they are more "backfield objective holders", trying to draw fire some times when you need them, but most of the times just survive at the back or in LoS. For those squads tesla is slightly better, because you're most probably not finding yourself in 12" range and in 24" the tesla with the possible 6s outshines the Gauss. Undoubtedly, Gauss is better in rapid fire range, but the arguement is this squad will statistically get in rapid fire range rarely, if ever in your games.
I have never seen Immortals as tax, warriors maybe but not the Immortals. I usually run them as "backfield objective holders" as well and with Gauss because of a tip an Eldar player told me. He said "Place objectives on high platforms and place your Immortals there. That way its harder for them to be shot at, harder for your opponent to get at them and enemy units will come at you meaning your unit will RF more often if I (my opponent) needs that objectives." Thats what i usually think when I play object games so that Im getting the most out of my Immortals job. Also in my games they usually get to RF every turn due to my opponents units coming across their path.
If they're a 10 man strong squad that you plan to use for mid-field dominance with Destroyer lord support or a transport, I'd go for the Gauss. You're likely to find yourself in Rapid Fire range and in 24" the Gauss is still only slightly worse.
Generally, this is all very picky. In reality, the difference is very small and I suggest go with whatever you like best, or what you modeled. (Or wait for the new edition to choose your weapons!)
I never played a 10 man Immortal unit, sounds devastating if player right!
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How about the D Lord w/ Praetorians? Maybe something like this
I like the core and base idea of your list. It's fast with GA's, jetbikes, wraiths and prets. One thing I suggest, since your prets and D.Lord are both not part of a Decurion and are both quite vulnerable, I'd go for the Nightmare Shroud+ warscythe+ Phase shifter. He'd go up to 190 points, but you could maybe reduce the Deathmark size to 5 or remove some upgrades here and there for that.
Thank you. I just expanded from skoffs idea. Yeah the D Lord and Praes do suffer from only 5+ RP so they are pretty vulnerable compared to the Decurion and 3++ Wraiths... If we drop 1 Gauss TB from each unit, 1 Praetorian and 1 Death mark we can get 112 pts which we could put a Cryptek (Veil,Solar staff) and D Lord (Shroud, Warscythe, Shifter) . This gives the D Lord and Praes for 4+ RP and the ability to DS every one due to the Crypteks Veil. We do lose a few units but makes them a bit tougher.
The arguement is that he can tank pretty well on a 2+ at T5 (majority) and 4++ and 5++ for a squad otherwise known as the glass canons of the codex. Even soaking a round of fire from a single side of the board is enough for the Prets, as they're really vulnerable, especially outside a Decurion.
Well if we do what I said above we could make them last way longer and be a much more dangerous unit for our opponents to face.
The arguement for Warscythe vs Voidreaper is: Well, obviously, the Voidreaper is better since it has the benefit of Master crafted, which I can't argue against. The second and most important benefit is the Fleshbane SR. Your prets are hitting hard for sure, but you most probably don't want them to face something with toughness more than 5. They can slaughter MEQ and TEQ, but MC's.. I don't know if I'd go for that. Their lack of invulnerable save and low initiative makes them quite vulnerable and their STR5 means they will not hurt big things very much. You mostly want them MEQ hunting and the Warscythe (at str 7) is more than enough for that. The different only matters for T6+, which, I guess you don't want to find yourself in combat with. The prets differ with the Lychguard in the way that, they lychguard don't hit hard, but they can take a punch or two and let the HQ (destroyer lord or more) do the damage. The Prets don't have that luxury. If you only rely on your Void reaper to do damage with your prets, you're losing combat, because you're getting slaughtered in return.
You make a Valid point on them targeting anything above T 5. However. We do have shooty units that can shoot that T5 MC till it dies!!! Or wound it at least and make it not as dangerous in CC as it has a better chance at dying. It would make sense that Lynch would be better at surviving and that praes would be better at destroying things. And sounds like The Rod are a must take by what you are saying.
this is personal preference, but I've come to dislike the Deathmark squad in Decurions that need an Aux. For me at least, they haven't ever worked like that. With no support, with no big numbers etc. A single small squad will not make a difference even with their SR's. I've found them more often than not killing something very insignificant and just dying or hiding in a shameful manner. Maybe, I haven't managed to learn how to field them effectively yet, but at least for me, the single squad won't work in lists not built arround them. Instead, I'd go for some Flayed Ones. They can pose a threat, tarpit or even be used as counter-charge to GSC as mentioned. That being said, I haven't used Flayed Ones too much myself, so I can't speak too much from my experience.
I really like Deathmarks. Like a lot. They can DS on your opponents turn (if they have a unit DSing). They can shoot as well at the unit on your opponents shooting phase (though they can't shoot then during your next turn). And, they wound on 2+ the 1st turn they DS and if within RF they can destroy a pretty menacing unit if the are played right. I usually have them as small unit/lonely warlord killers, objec getters on my opponnts side of the table or as like breakers. For 90 pts they can do a lot of things and I respect the powers they bring when they 1st arrive via DS. Flayed Ones are BEAST if played right. FO with Zahndrekh and Orikan (using interceptor) can be beastly.
Odrankt wrote:
I think that unit sounds good. PE isn't all that helpful but if you somehow still miss with the Shred it could be helpful.
You cant re-roll a re-roll my friend, so you choose either PE or Shred for the wounds, therefor the PE only helps them to hit
I like the core and base idea of your list. It's fast with GA's, jetbikes, wraiths and prets. One thing I suggest, since your prets and D.Lord are both not part of a Decurion and are both quite vulnerable, I'd go for the Nightmare Shroud+ warscythe+ Phase shifter. He'd go up to 190 points, but you could maybe reduce the Deathmark size to 5 or remove some upgrades here and there for that.
Second this idea, speedy Necrons are my favourite, and I've found the NS is a better investment on the D/Lord. I usually run the voidblade on O/Lords in deathstars, as the star is durable enough to soak wounds for the lord to do the choppy. Plus his higher WS than the D/Lord (THIS INFURIATES ME) means he hits better with it too. The D/Lord is generally in a fast unit i.e wraiths or on his own, so the warscythe and NS helps him survive alot longer, and with the WS being S7, it is hitting most things pretty accurately anyway.
The arguement is that he can tank pretty well on a 2+ at T5 (majority) and 4++ and 5++ for a squad otherwise known as the glass canons of the codex. Even soaking a round of fire from a single side of the board is enough for the Prets, as they're really vulnerable, especially outside a Decurion.
The arguement for Warscythe vs Voidreaper is: Well, obviously, the Voidreaper is better since it has the benefit of Master crafted, which I can't argue against. The second and most important benefit is the Fleshbane SR. Your prets are hitting hard for sure, but you most probably don't want them to face something with toughness more than 5. They can slaughter MEQ and TEQ, but MC's.. I don't know if I'd go for that. Their lack of invulnerable save and low initiative makes them quite vulnerable and their STR5 means they will not hurt big things very much. You mostly want them MEQ hunting and the Warscythe (at str 7) is more than enough for that. The different only matters for T6+, which, I guess you don't want to find yourself in combat with. The prets differ with the Lychguard in the way that, they lychguard don't hit hard, but they can take a punch or two and let the HQ (destroyer lord or more) do the damage. The Prets don't have that luxury. If you only rely on your Void reaper to do damage with your prets, you're losing combat, because you're getting slaughtered in return.
Yep, I usually rush my wraiths up the board as quickly as possible, they even better at soaking wounds, and as they are tarpits that people are terrified of they usually soak disproportionate amount of punishment. Usually my praet squad is relatively unharmed, so they can move up with better numbers and do their damage.
In regards to MC, yea I dont face many at all anymore (no more 'Nids), so I haven't come up against this problem. But 100% agree they are not designed to fight them. I would personally tie MC's up with wraiths and let my death squad do its thing to the rest of the army.
They take more finesse to use than the lych/wraith-star, you need to actively think about where they are going and that because they will die to dedicated abuse but its damage output is INSANE. Its not über competitive, but it is a pretty solid alternative to the boring old WraithCult Decurion, and a more optimal place to put the D/Lord
These are my praets BTW, I proxied them a couple of times, loved how they played so I made them into something special!
Spoiler:
Besides that, and this is personal preference, but I've come to dislike the Deathmark squad in Decurions that need an Aux. For me at least, they haven't ever worked like that. With no support, with no big numbers etc. A single small squad will not make a difference even with their SR's. I've found them more often than not killing something very insignificant and just dying or hiding in a shameful manner. Maybe, I haven't managed to learn how to field them effectively yet, but at least for me, the single squad won't work in lists not built arround them. Instead, I'd go for some Flayed Ones. They can pose a threat, tarpit or even be used as counter-charge to GSC as mentioned. That being said, I haven't used Flayed Ones too much myself, so I can't speak too much from my experience.
Also good advice, flayed ones are fun and pose more of a threat for longer than the deathmarks (although the Deathmarks threat is more potent, but much more specific). Plus theyre cheaper too!
I think Deathmarks are a fun unit for casual games, but really lose their potency immediately after they shoot from DS. Then they just become ok-ish warriors with sniper.
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: I think Deathmarks are a fun unit for casual games, but really lose their potency immediately after they shoot from DS. Then they just become ok-ish warriors with sniper.
At 18 points per model, they're basically Immortals with 2 point sniper upgrades. Nothing wrong with that!
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: I think Deathmarks are a fun unit for casual games, but really lose their potency immediately after they shoot from DS. Then they just become ok-ish warriors with sniper.
At 18 points per model, they're basically Immortals with 2 point sniper upgrades. Nothing wrong with that!
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: I think Deathmarks are a fun unit for casual games, but really lose their potency immediately after they shoot from DS. Then they just become ok-ish warriors with sniper.
At 18 points per model, they're basically Immortals with 2 point sniper upgrades. Nothing wrong with that!
And Tomb Blades are Immortals with 1 point jetbike upgrades!
(well, 3 point, I guess, including the shields, but the +1 to Toughness and twin-link makes it well worth it)
I usually try put my Deathmarks inbetween a few units by DS. They are a good unit within Rapid-Fire. They can do a good bit of damage to a unit or vehicle. They also have 4+ RP so they might last a turn or 2...
Sorry lads, can someone halp me with me questions? My lil ol brain isnt coping with uni and also worrying about plastic robots so good
Recently my gaming group has been running small 500 point games, we play 3-4 games a night, bring a few lists/armies each and throw down. I have just built one of two of my sentry pylons, and want to give it a crack.
Talking to my mate about it tonight it has raised a few questions regarding cover saves.
Does the death ray ignore cover and you treat the hit from coming from underneath? Or do you assume the beam comes from the pylon and intervening terrain/models grant cover? Or do you draw cover from the start of the beam, so if, for example, it started out in the open, and went over unit A and B, does unit A grant a 5+ cover save to unit B? Also, can the beam can shoot around corners/360 degree arc from the starting point even if the pylon doesn't have LoS to the ending point?
And im stuck between orikan and the D/lord for the game. Orikan means re-rolling saves on the pylon if he is attached to it, but can attach himself to one of my immortal squads to buff their RP/saving throws, wont reduce the T of the pylon if he attaches himself to it after going super sayian. Whereas the D/Lord is more focused on the pylon, has better defenses against the pylon if it gets charged, is more mobile, can tank wounds better straight away with a 2+ and T6, has armourbane (going against a mechanised skitarii list) makes the deathray more killy.
My list is
D/Lord or Orikan
Immortals
Immortals
Death ray Sentry pylon
You cant re-roll a re-roll my friend, so you choose either PE or Shred for the wounds, therefor the PE only helps them to hit
forgot about that tbh ha ha. I think D Lord does well in nearly every unit but I'm not sure how useful it would be with FO.
Second this idea, speedy Necrons are my favourite, and I've found the NS is a better investment on the D/Lord. I usually run the voidblade on O/Lords in deathstars, as the star is durable enough to soak wounds for the lord to do the choppy. Plus his higher WS than the D/Lord (THIS INFURIATES ME) means he hits better with it too. The D/Lord is generally in a fast unit i.e wraiths or on his own, so the warscythe and NS helps him survive alot longer, and with the WS being S7, it is hitting most things pretty accurately anyway.
Yeah I suppose it doesn't make sense as to why the O lord has better WS if the D lord is mainly CC. Sounds like NS and Warscythe is the ideal built for the D Lord and Voidblade on the O lord because of his higher WS. Would you say and O Lord with the Voidreaper be any good if in the Orikan star? If he has no other job then choppy choppy?
Yep, I usually rush my wraiths up the board as quickly as possible, they even better at soaking wounds, and as they are tarpits that people are terrified of they usually soak disproportionate amount of punishment. Usually my praet squad is relatively unharmed, so they can move up with better numbers and do their damage.
In regards to MC, yea I dont face many at all anymore (no more 'Nids), so I haven't come up against this problem. But 100% agree they are not designed to fight them. I would personally tie MC's up with wraiths and let my death squad do its thing to the rest of the army.
They take more finesse to use than the lych/wraith-star, you need to actively think about where they are going and that because they will die to dedicated abuse but its damage output is INSANE. Its not über competitive, but it is a pretty solid alternative to the boring old WraithCult Decurion, and a more optimal place to put the D/Lord
These are my praets BTW, I proxied them a couple of times, loved how they played so I made them into something special!
I usally use my wraiths to block my enemy from flanking me and hiding behind something to plan an ambush if my opponents is oblivious as to what the Wraith does. I like putting them against vehicles as well though. Holds them up and stops them from shooting as well.
How often would you say people see your prets as a "threat"? or would they be oblivious to them until their AP2 attacks start to go off?
I usually just shoot MC's most of them are good at combat anyway so might as well shoot at them before they get in CC.
YOUR PROXY ARE AMAZING! How did you make these? I usually think the Prets models are flimsy and way to breakable but your look Sturdy AF. Really good job man I would love to make mine like yours.
Also good advice, flayed ones are fun and pose more of a threat for longer than the deathmarks (although the Deathmarks threat is more potent, but much more specific). Plus theyre cheaper too!
I can see the benefits of FO, they are pretty powerful and can either DS or Infiltrate which are nice options to have. However interms of cost for basic unit size what can the FO do compared to DA?
To me for 90pts the DA can; DS on my turn or opponents turn. can wound on 2+ on its 21st turn of shooting when it DS. Has sniper rule so can affect both units and vehicles. Can do a lot of damage if within Rapid-Fire. Can get line breaker, an objective or destroy a really hard unit when it can 1st shoot.
For 65pts the FO can; DS or Infiltrate which are nice options to have . They have shred so should only miss 3-4 To hit rolls on average. They have Fear which might do something... If in a unit with Orikan or Zhandrekh (when he has Zealot/Hatred) they can become BEASTLY.
I still think Deathmarks are better but If I needed to put points to another unit I could drop them and add FO for another CC option.
Does the death ray ignore cover and you treat the hit from coming from underneath? Or do you assume the beam comes from the pylon and intervening terrain/models grant cover? Or do you draw cover from the start of the beam, so if, for example, it started out in the open, and went over unit A and B, does unit A grant a 5+ cover save to unit B? Also, can the beam can shoot around corners/360 degree arc from the starting point even if the pylon doesn't have LoS to the ending point?
And im stuck between orikan and the D/lord for the game. Orikan means re-rolling saves on the pylon if he is attached to it, but can attach himself to one of my immortal squads to buff their RP/saving throws, wont reduce the T of the pylon if he attaches himself to it after going super sayian. Whereas the D/Lord is more focused on the pylon, has better defenses against the pylon if it gets charged, is more mobile, can tank wounds better straight away with a 2+ and T6, has armourbane (going against a mechanised skitarii list) makes the deathray more killy.
I don't think it ignores cover but I also dont think if unit A is in front of unit B does it give B the +1 cover save. Its a beam weapon that shoots from above rather then it shooting through an objects or unit. I say it up to you man. I haven't used one personally so i don't know its capabilities. In Battlescribe it says you nominate one area within its range and then nominate a 2nd point then draw a straight line. So I do not think it can go around corners/arc. I think it has to be straight.. You can also roll 3d6 from the 1st point and have that be your 2nd point instead of picking an area within its range.
Honestly, I would put a Triarch Stalker near it so that it has has 5 BS instead of 4 (which will give better rolls and more damage). I would Say Stalker and D Lord (if you have the points) Would be a good and destructive combo to have with the Pylon due to what buffs they give to the Pylon and how much more damage it can do with the buffs from the D Lord and Stalker.
sieGermans
At 18 points per model, they're basically Immortals with 2 point sniper upgrades. Nothing wrong with that!
To me everything is a Immortal with minor upgrades. Immortas are 17pts a unit and can either have Gauss or Tesla. If you put 1 point towards them you can either have Deathmarks which are Immortals with sniper weapons and 1 eye. Tomb Blades are 18pts (21 if you include all the extra they can equipped) and they are basically Immortals on Speed. Lynch are Immortals that cost 7pts more (12 with S&S) and gave up all their shooty tactics to protect the HQ/destroy enemy units.
Simply because I don't feel like quoting it, I'm going to answer the one specific question on the post above me.
Why are Destroyer Lords more capable than Overlords in melee even without the WS5? It's all about that PE and T6. The PE let's them hit more stuff on average, and it isn't even a contest when you equip the Voidreaper.
How often would you say people see your prets as a "threat"? or would they be oblivious to them until their AP2 attacks start to go off?
A squad of 10 with a D/Lord in it.... very big threat, immediately.
YOUR PROXY ARE AMAZING! How did you make these? I usually think the Prets models are flimsy and way to breakable but your look Sturdy AF. Really good job man I would love to make mine like yours.
Some insanely talanted dude 3D printed up the tails, and I managed to score some. The torso's are just standard praet torso's, just removed the center of the rear cage as it made them look too circular on the tails.
I don't think it ignores cover but I also dont think if unit A is in front of unit B does it give B the +1 cover save. Its a beam weapon that shoots from above rather then it shooting through an objects or unit. I say it up to you man. I haven't used one personally so i don't know its capabilities. In Battlescribe it says you nominate one area within its range and then nominate a 2nd point then draw a straight line. So I do not think it can go around corners/arc. I think it has to be straight.. You can also roll 3d6 from the 1st point and have that be your 2nd point instead of picking an area within its range.
My question about shooting around corners still stands, if point A is next to a building and point B is at a 90 degree angle that the pylon cannot draw line of sight to, it is shooting around corners while still using a straight line. Also you HAVE to go 3D6" from the starting point, not choose a second point within its range if that is less than 3D6".
I'm not asking if it has the ignores cover rule, I know it doesn't. Im just confused as to where the shot is considered to come from for the purposes of granting cover.
Would love some advice from anyone who has actually used it, as its an odd bit of kit at face value.
Honestly, I would put a Triarch Stalker near it so that it has has 5 BS instead of 4 (which will give better rolls and more damage). I would Say Stalker and D Lord (if you have the points) Would be a good and destructive combo to have with the Pylon due to what buffs they give to the Pylon and how much more damage it can do with the buffs from the D Lord and Stalker.
Its a beam weapon, so you dont roll to hit so stalker is wasted on it, (moot point as its a 500 point game and I have no more points to spend)
My problem with running the D/Lord is that Orikan makes the pylon super tough, once he goes super sayian (not reducing majority T). But before this point the D/Lord is far ahead in terms of damage output and defence in CC and can tank better so long as no AP2 comes my way. Yet Orikan lets it reroll saves of 1, and can attach to give the immortals +1 RP. There is pros and cons to both, just wanted some opinions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Simply because I don't feel like quoting it, I'm going to answer the one specific question on the post above me.
Why are Destroyer Lords more capable than Overlords in melee even without the WS5? It's all about that PE and T6. The PE let's them hit more stuff on average, and it isn't even a contest when you equip the Voidreaper.
Yea, I was just looking at the WS disparity from a fluff point of view, makes sense that the destroyer lord should have a higher WS, considering he loves getting up close and personal and all that.
Ok, here's my 1850 decurion list. It's meant to be a competitive list, so tell me what you think.
+++ Necron main lineup (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2033) (1849pts) +++
++ Nec Decurion Detachment (Necrons: Codex (2015) v2003) (1849pts) ++
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: Ok, here's my 1850 decurion list. It's meant to be a competitive list, so tell me what you think.
+++ Necron main lineup (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2033) (1849pts) +++
++ Nec Decurion Detachment (Necrons: Codex (2015) v2003) (1849pts) ++
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: Ok, here's my 1850 decurion list. It's meant to be a competitive list, so tell me what you think.
+++ Necron main lineup (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2033) (1849pts) +++
++ Nec Decurion Detachment (Necrons: Codex (2015) v2003) (1849pts) ++
Could you give us the Idea for your list? Is it to get objects, kill units, flood the board, board control?
It's been developed for unit killing primarily, cause I can just about shred any MEQS and some TEQS that come my way. I have some range on them, and the tesla allows for more hits as well, and my Overlord has been developed for challenges with the lychguard backing him up for larger fights.
It's been developed for unit killing primarily, cause I can just about shred any MEQS and some TEQS that come my way. I have some range on them, and the tesla allows for more hits as well, and my Overlord has been developed for challenges with the lychguard backing him up
Well first of all, the HQs can only have 1 Artifact each. They can't have 2. E.g Overlord w/ VoD and Voidreaper. You can only bring 1.
Why 5 Immortals in the Night Scythe? I would atleast buff them to 10 before I have them in a NS. Be better putting your Lynchguard in it and have them deploy instead via the NS. Immortals work better as object holders. Unless in bigger units.
Lynchguard w/ warscythe are strong but what do they have to protect themselfs? I 2 and no 3++ makes them less durable. Go with the Sword & Shield to get a 3++ and be able survive a bit longer.
Tomb Blades are solid, however I would just go with 2 units of Nebuloscopes. Ignoring cover is better a +1 cover save and 6+ cover save if in the open. Imho. Id also give 1 model each in both units a particle beamer. Higher strength and good at blobs of troops.
Warriors in GA are solid.
RC
Where are you putting these models, are they going with the Immortals, Lynchguard, Flayed Ones, Super IC unit? 2 Overlords? Run them with a Phase Shifter.4++ is better then a 5+ non-RP. Mind. Scarabs are not worth the points. They are better spent beefing up your units with extra equipment.
10 Flayed Ones on a Charge roll 50 dice and re-roll misses due to shred. Can't go wrong.
Strip the Sypder, drop 2 Scarabs (youl generate 1 free every turn anyway) get an extra wraith and put coils on them.
Maybe something like this?
Spoiler:
Decurion
Overlord w/ Voidreaper, Shifter and Phylactery
5 Immortals w/ gauss
10 Lynchguard in Night Scythe
3 Tomb Blades w/ Shield, Scopes 2 x Gauss 1 x P Beamer
3 Tomb Blades w/ Shield, Scopes 2 x Gauss 1 x P Beamer
3 Tomb Blades w/ Shield, Scopes 2 x Gauss 1 x P Beamer
10 Warriors in GA 10 Warriors in GA
AuxIliary
10 Flayed Ones
CAD
HQ
Destroyer Lord w/ N.Shroud, Shifter,Phylactery, Warscythe
Drop the MSS, Phylactery and GoF from HQ's, spend points on more troops. Having a royal court without lychguard means the HQ's will die pretty quick. Could drop the court and flayed ones, run a bare bones decurion and have a canoptek harvest with D/Cult, run the D/Lord with the wraiths and have a fast wraithstar.
Do ye think C'tan will be better in 8th edition? It would be nice to see the C'tan hit the tabletop more and actually be a powerful model. I hope we get new units as well and get new ways to play our crons (either pysker units or 4+ against the witch rolls if using a certain Decurion or fomation).
What are yer expectations on 8th edition Necrons? What would you like to see us get and what do you think we need to be closer to top-tier.
Special request:
1- Let's try to keep list posting in the army list section and keep the tactics thread about tactics. (though I guess it would still be alright if the list being posted is in regards to tactics discussion​).
2- If you're going to post a list, or if you're quoting a list, please hide it under a spoiler so we don't have massive chunks of text taking up half the page.
3- Let's not start wishlisting about next edition stuff in the tactics thread. From previous experience, that can get out of control pretty quickly.
Klowny wrote: Hey skoffs, have you used the Sentry Pylon? no-one seems to have any input regarding how beams work, playing with it tomorrow
Typically it's up to the TO, but normal procedure is,
When shooting:
1- Indicate a starting point on the table.
2- Roll for distance.
3- Draw a straight line from the starting point in whatever direction you want.
4- Any models under the line are hit. Roll to wound.
For the Death Ray:
If the line touches models in two separate units, count the number of models touched in each sperate unit. That unit takes that many hits, x2 (eg. Unit A has 5 models under the line. Unit B has 2 models under the line. Unit A takes 10 hits. Unit B takes 4 hits).
Be aware that because the Death Ray does not "target" enemy models, how it interacts with certain rules (eg. Jink, Invisibility, Shooting into combat) are unclear. (Unless that got FAQ'd? Not 100% sure, didn't keep up with that one).
TO's call, usually.
So cover is drawn from the artillery piece and not the starting point of the beam?
If the beam hits units a and b, unit b would be granted a cover save due to shooting through models of unit a?
And while skoffs way of how the total number of hits is calculated makes the unit more fair (and it's how I'm going to play it tonight), the literal wording of the rule is "every unit (friend or foe) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to twice the number of models underneath the line"
It doesn't stipulate that every unit suffers a number of hits equal to twice the number of models (from its own unit) underneath the line.
And while skoffs way of how the total number of hits is calculated makes the unit more fair (and it's how I'm going to play it tonight), the literal wording of the rule is "every unit (friend or foe) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to twice the number of models underneath the line"
It doesn't stipulate that every unit suffers a number of hits equal to twice the number of models (from its own unit) underneath the line.
Yes you are correct. Rule As Written the beams score hits based on twice the number of models underneath the line with no stipulation that they are from the same unit.
The beams were FAQd by the ITC and Nova but not FW or GW. Lots of people follow the ITC and Nova FAQs as an example of how to incorporate the Pylons into competitive play.
and was wondering is the Retribution Phalanx formation any good since the most recent FaQ. I want to incorporate it into either a CAD or Decurion but not sure which one will be better. My plan was to spawn 7-9 scarabs everytime they die and use them to hold up units that do a lot of damage.
Note: I know the Ret. Phalanx isnt an Auxiliary for a Decurion.
I played a game yesterday and just realized that the Decurion Detachment has some major set backs - objective secured. I don't have it. What units in the decurion have objective secured? I literally hard some warriors holding an objective and then a rhino charged over on it's own and contested it in the last turn.
What's our real deathstar unit? I was thinking of running like 5x wraiths in a harvest with a destroyer lord for preferred enemy.
Immortals seem weak. For the same points I could get a squad of 10 warriors with slightly lower strength. Where do immortals really come into play?
What's a good unit to run in a Nightscythe - I was thinking an Overlord with Lychguard but I'm just unsure how good they are. They seem tough, but only have 1 wound. They don't hit back very hard either.
I played a game yesterday and just realized that the Decurion Detachment has some major set backs - objective secured. I don't have it. What units in the decurion have objective secured? I literally hard some warriors holding an objective and then a rhino charged over on it's own and contested it in the last turn.
No units in the Decurion have objective secured. The only way to have object is to have a CAD (Combined Arms Detachment) and its only troops (warriors and immortals) that can secure objects. I usually pile units around them within 3 inches and because your opponent has to be 1inch away from your units (besides in CC) they won't be able to get at the objectives.
What's our real deathstar unit? I was thinking of running like 5x wraiths in a harvest with a destroyer lord for preferred enemy.
pffft... Hard to say we. We can have; destoyer Lord with Wraiths/Lynchguard/Praetorians. Can throw in Orikan as well. Overlord With the above or Flayed Ones. Wraiths with D Lord is solid. D Lord on its own can be good too due to its general stats. D Lord with Orikan can be good if you dont mind you not being able to move 2D6 (Jump,Shoot,Jump)
Immortals seem weak. For the same points I could get a squad of 10 warriors with slightly lower strength. Where do immortals really come into play?
Inmortals are good in squads of 10, if your running 5 they are better at holding an objective at your side of the board and to hold your back line and to constantly control a marker every turn. I usually put an object ontop of a building/platform and have my immortals deploy their. Dont move them at all and watch your opponents units march to Rapid-Fire Death!
Serioursly though. They are the kind of units that you use to stop yourself from being tabled by being away from the majority of the action.
What's a good unit to run in a Nightscythe - I was thinking an Overlord with Lychguard but I'm just unsure how good they are. They seem tough, but only have 1 wound. They don't hit back very hard either.
15 Warriors (14+1HQ or whatever, can transport a capacity of 15). Drop them behind enemy units to get 30 shots with RF. Immortals in squads of 10 are good. Lynchguard with and HQ is a good choice. You can bring a Destroyer lord but he takes 3 capacity spaces (very bulky model). I usually just put warriors in for all the shots.
and was wondering is the Retribution Phalanx formation any good since the most recent FaQ. I want to incorporate it into either a CAD or Decurion but not sure which one will be better. My plan was to spawn 7-9 scarabs everytime they die and use them to hold up units that do a lot of damage.
Note: I know the Ret. Phalanx isnt an Auxiliary for a Decurion.
Played the pylon both ways, the official interpretation (non-ITC FAQ) it wrecked absolute face. wiped squads a turn. Can do some cool things, I drew the line over an onager, then at a 45 degree angle from there, hitting a unit of rangers (most of which the pylon couldn't see, so it wouldnt be able to kill them as they are not in LoS). But, it did mean the onager got like 6 extra S10 AP1 hits. Building my second one right now, twice the fun!
IR0N wrote:I'm new to Necrons and I've got some questions.
I played a game yesterday and just realized that the Decurion Detachment has some major set backs - objective secured. I don't have it. What units in the decurion have objective secured? I literally hard some warriors holding an objective and then a rhino charged over on it's own and contested it in the last turn.
What's our real deathstar unit? I was thinking of running like 5x wraiths in a harvest with a destroyer lord for preferred enemy.
Immortals seem weak. For the same points I could get a squad of 10 warriors with slightly lower strength. Where do immortals really come into play?
What's a good unit to run in a Nightscythe - I was thinking an Overlord with Lychguard but I'm just unsure how good they are. They seem tough, but only have 1 wound. They don't hit back very hard either.
Yep no ObSec in decurion at all. the formation bonuses are more beneficial.
We have a couple of deathstar units.
Wraith star is what you have said, D/Lord and sometimes Orikan with a bunch of wraiths.
The traditional deathstar is Lychguard, Orikan, Obryn and Zandrekh. Can put it in a night scythe, or get an overlord with a veil, and use that and obryns blink to jump about the map.
Played the pylon both ways, the official interpretation (non-ITC FAQ) it wrecked absolute face. wiped squads a turn. Can do some cool things, I drew the line over an onager, then at a 45 degree angle from there, hitting a unit of rangers (most of which the pylon couldn't see, so it wouldnt be able to kill them as they are not in LoS). But, it did mean the onager got like 6 extra S10 AP1 hits. Building my second one right now, twice the fun!
Sounds like you had a blast. Would you say the Pylons are good to take competitively to a tournament or are the points better spent somewhere else.
Destroyer Lord is Jetpack infantry and they are barred from being transported by a flyer.
The faq only lets Jump Infantry on night scythes now, which is only Praetorians.
Played the pylon both ways, the official interpretation (non-ITC FAQ) it wrecked absolute face. wiped squads a turn. Can do some cool things, I drew the line over an onager, then at a 45 degree angle from there, hitting a unit of rangers (most of which the pylon couldn't see, so it wouldnt be able to kill them as they are not in LoS). But, it did mean the onager got like 6 extra S10 AP1 hits. Building my second one right now, twice the fun!
Sounds like you had a blast. Would you say the Pylons are good to take competitively to a tournament or are the points better spent somewhere else.
If you build your list around them then yes, a pylonstar is one of our most competitive lists currently.
Draco765 wrote:Destroyer Lord is Jetpack infantry and they are barred from being transported by a flyer.
The faq only lets Jump Infantry on night scythes now, which is only Praetorians.
Yep you are correct, i never bring nightscythes in my games, so dont know much about them.
Would it be good to run the Pylons with a Doomsday Ark?
It has a 72" range, strength 10 ap 1 large blast but thats only if its stationary otherwise its less powerful and only at 24" range. So... If you put the Ark at a edge of the table to have a good angle of the field and use the pylons with Deep Strike to damage areas the Doomsday Ark cant see or access.
I was thinking of trying it out with Scarabs and Sypder w/ claws to re-pair the ark and prevent my opponent DS and getting into CC. Or, with the A Nexus so that it can take the quantum shielding from the annihilation barge? Yer thoughts?
I've played a few games with Orikanstar (Zahndrek, Orikan, Obyron, Sword/board Lychguard). The unit is just insanely survivable (both games I think I lost 2-3 models?)
It's slow so you need a transport or veil to get around the board, but you can have a fairly big footprint of board control with it. Orikan will most likely turn into a MC and at that point the unit is pretty daft.
Odrankt wrote: You can put 3 Heavy Destroyers in a D Cult. But cost 150 extra as they dont count towards the 3 units of Destroyers and you can only bring 1 unit.
The problem with taking a cult is that all three H.Destroyers are stuck in the same unit, therefore required to all shoot at the same target.
Taking them in CADs allows you to saturate target acquisition.
I never spammed multi Heavy Destroyers. Thought it was always a bit mean. Unless it's against Tau
Check this-
Spoiler:
655 Pts Heavy Gauss Spam (basic) Necrons : 655 HQ Lord (50 Pts) Staff Of Light,
TROOP Necron Immortals (85 Pts) - Necron Immortal (5): Gauss Blaster,
Necron Immortals (85 Pts) - Necron Immortal (5): Gauss Blaster,
ELITE Triarch Stalker (135 Pts) - Triarch Stalker (1): Quantum Shielding, TL Heavy Gauss Cannon,
FAST Necron Destroyers (50 Pts) - Necron Destroyer (0): Gauss Cannon,
- Heavy Destroyer (1): Heavy Gauss Cannon, counter,
Necron Destroyers (50 Pts) - Necron Destroyer (0): Gauss Cannon,
- Heavy Destroyer (1): Heavy Gauss Cannon, counter,
Necron Destroyers (50 Pts) - Necron Destroyer (0): Gauss Cannon,
- Heavy Destroyer (1): Heavy Gauss Cannon, counter,
HEAVY Heavy Destroyers (50 Pts) Heavy Gauss Cannon,
Heavy Destroyers (50 Pts) Heavy Gauss Cannon,
Heavy Destroyers (50 Pts) Heavy Gauss Cannon,
That's a single CAD with 7 HGCs. Double that for 14, if you're allowed multiple CADs. Plenty of points left over to fill the list out with stuff to round it out.
If your running that many HD's, I've found a triarch stalker is disgustingly efficient with them. Making them hit on 2's RR, backed up by its own HGC, makes a very angry little pocket of shooting.
But its best to post lists in the section dedicated for them friend
Yeah the only issue with running that many HDs is that you're putting a massive number of points into low number of shots. One shot per model is such a problem against a lot of armies. Sure you'll be pretty good at sniping off like, maybe some MSU or MCs, but a lot of stuff needs a much higher volume.
Tbh, I would rather chat army lists and tactics in this thread due to how much knowledge this thread has. But I can see your point :p. I can see the Triarch is a good buff with +1 BS buff but wouldnt that limit atleast 1 H destroyer from move and running 2d6?
I can see your point with the lack of units. But I have 6 Wraiths that can most fast, 10 warriors in Ghost Ark that can move fast, Cryptek with 10 warriors that can deepstrike and have buffs via the cryptek.
All HDs and Pylon will DS in so that they can be as useful as possible.
When we made​ this list before it included a couple Stalkers and a Void Shield Generator. Spread the HDs out with a Stalker on each of your own sides of the table, all within range of the VSG. Vehicles were pretty much gone the first turn.
It included 2 MSUs of Wraiths to tie up combat units, with 4 MSU Immortals going after objectives.
Never played it, as I didn't have enough HDs to physically create the list, but on paper it made sense... wish I could find it again.
skoffs wrote: When we made​ this list before it included a couple Stalkers and a Void Shield Generator. Spread the HDs out with a Stalker on each of your own sides of the table, all within range of the VSG. Vehicles were pretty much gone the first turn.
It included 2 MSUs of Wraiths to tie up combat units, with 4 MSU Immortals going after objectives.
Never played it, as I didn't have enough HDs to physically create the list, but on paper it made sense... wish I could find it again.
Spoiler:
+++ S9 Spam 2.0 (1849pts) +++
++ CAD 1 ++
+ HQ (75pts) +
Lord [Staff of Light, The Veil of Darkness] (75pts)
But yes, "Pylon-star" is our most competitive build... but it still can't usually beat other armies most competitive builds.
Fall of Orpheus is what I meant. I assume it hold all of the special stats for our FW units. You'll have to forgive me, i've only been playing for a couple years now and am still new to the idea of death stars. How is this one built, and what other kinds of "stars" do we have in our arsenal?
skoffs wrote: When we made​ this list before it included a couple Stalkers and a Void Shield Generator. Spread the HDs out with a Stalker on each of your own sides of the table, all within range of the VSG. Vehicles were pretty much gone the first turn.
It included 2 MSUs of Wraiths to tie up combat units, with 4 MSU Immortals going after objectives.
Never played it, as I didn't have enough HDs to physically create the list, but on paper it made sense... wish I could find it again.
Spoiler:
+++ S9 Spam 2.0 (1849pts) +++
++ CAD 1 ++
+ HQ (75pts) +
Lord [Staff of Light, The Veil of Darkness] (75pts)
I never used a Void Shield Generatir. How does that work?
For an 1850 list I would be tempted to drop the lsit from 10 HDs down to 6 and instead field 2 units of 4 TBs and 2 4 Units of Wraiths as well to get more fast moving models and more durable ones as well. 2 stalker to benefit the HDs but might also put an immortals near a stalker as well depending on the placement of objects. Do pylons get the +1BS if within 6" of a stalker? If so that could be broken.
I would still run atleast 1 D Lord to put with a unit of wraiths and the cryptek with the 10 warriors. I think 3 units of immortals is enough of "dedicated" object scores. TBs and anything DS can get the rest across the table.
*I would built a list but I do not have access to an army builder atm so will update this post when I have the above idea in a list*
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: You guys keep talking about pylons and stuff, is the FW cron stuff worth it? Should I buy FoO and the like for competitive lists?
Be wary about buying FW Necron stuff. It hasn't been updated in a long time (so some places don't even allow it), and with the rules overhaul coming with 8th we may see them re-release the rules shortly after. They redid all their Fantasy stuff for AoS, so I'd put a pin in it until after the new edition.
Speaking of the new rules, I wonder how these are going to affect us?
Spoiler:
1- Okay.
2- We don't have much template weapons, so probably no big deal. If anything, it may help, giving us a reason to take Doomsday Arks.
3- Might be good. Wonder how Gauss will work now?
4- See above. Just hope my precious Destroyers are still good.
5- Cool.
6- Alright.
7- Well, the only vehicles we've got are open topped already but the transport version can only take Warriors, so no big deal there... unless they shake things up for the data slates and allow anyone to get into Ghost Arks, in which case Lychguard will finally have the party bus they've always wanted.
I'm calling bunk. At the very least, #2 is bull since the new Shadow War: Armageddon box set just shipped with blast and flamer templates, along with rules referencing them. And the unit profiles in that look suspiciously like the unit profiles you might see in a new edition of 40k, so I'm inclined to think that they're not going anywhere. They could be, but I'd be really surprised if they were gone.
Codexs aren't "gone" but will be more like AoS Battletombs. They won't be necessary if you have the "40K Generals Handbook". But it will be for people who will want to know the fluff, formations and new "warscrolls".
If we go by Shadow War: Armageddon.
Spoiler:
Necrons have the Shred special rule for their guns instead of Gauss. Siince Gauss auto-pens on 6s and these rumours say armour will be gone it looks like we will have Shred instead of Gauss rule for our weapons. Which might actually be more devastating. But, army might be points heavy though to balance that rule if it is on every gun.
Odrankt wrote: Codexs aren't "gone" but will be more like AoS Battletombs. They won't be necessary if you have the "40K Generals Handbook". But it will be for people who will want to know the fluff, formations and new "warscrolls".
If we go by Shadow War: Armageddon.
Spoiler:
Necrons have the Shred special rule for their guns instead of Gauss. Siince Gauss auto-pens on 6s and these rumours say armour will be gone it looks like we will have Shred instead of Gauss rule for our weapons. Which might actually be more devastating. But, army might be points heavy though to balance that rule if it is on every gun.
Shadow Wars "spoiler"
Spoiler:
Army wide Shred would be a massive power spike imo. We're getting almost 50% more wounds against most opponents if not more.
Bespoke move rules is potentially a massive boost to certain units - could you imagine Flayed Ones if they got higher than average movement? Or suddenly Tomb Blades were 14", maybe Destroyers like 8"?
Army wide Shred would be a massive power spike imo. We're getting almost 50% more wounds against most opponents if not more.
Bespoke move rules is potentially a massive boost to certain units - could you imagine Flayed Ones if they got higher than average movement? Or suddenly Tomb Blades were 14", maybe Destroyers like 8"?
*spoiler*
Spoiler:
Even our basic warriors would be units of mass destruction. If we do get Shread instead of Gauss I could definatly see Necrons being Top Teir unless other armies get crazier buffs (Eldar).
I could see Tomb Blades keeping thier 12" movement but maybe only to move a further 8" if thet do not shoot instead of moving 12". I could see Destroyers moving a basic 6 inches and then 6+d3/6 by using the thrusters. Would make for a better movement mechanic. Warriors will be slow AF. Probably 4" movement, Immortals, Lynch, Deathmarks will probably move 6" due to them being a class above warriors. Flayed Ones would be deadly if they could move 8" and still have infiltrate and deepstrike.
I won't how our vehicles will change. I hope the Doomsday ark isn't open topped anymore so that it cant be destroyed as easily(although if it has wounds and not armour then "open-topped" doesnt matter anymore).
Do you think our HQs will all have different movement stats?
If we're shifting over to a simpler ruleset with less army-specific rules, i'd wager the power level of all armies would increase slightly, albeit some more than others. I'm curious as to see how they do Living Metal, as if they're doing wounds, the "repair a hull point/wound" will either increase with the inflation of wounds on a model, such as D6 wounds repaired, or it becomes a less useful rule overall.
Requizen wrote: June/July also seems really early, to be honest.
5th released in July,
6th released in June,
7th in May.
A June/July release window for 8th sounds perfectly reasonable to me (they probably want them out before summer hits, to get all that school kid free time money)
Has anyone heard anything more about the data slates?
Like, are they just going to be what's in the codex, copy/pasted with a movement value tacked on, or are they going for a full everything fix across all armies?
5th released in July,
6th released in June,
7th in May.
A June/July release window for 8th sounds perfectly reasonable to me (they probably want them out before summer hits, to get all that school kid free time money)
I am hoping for a release in May tbh. I know its only a month away but I wouldnt be surprised if GW just announced it before Mays White Dwarf so that they can reveal more info before 8th edit. drops.
I would say June would be the "best" month to release due to primary/secondary schools starting their summer break meaning more money for GW meaning June might be the release of 8th edit.
Has anyone heard anything more about the data slates?
Like, are they just going to be what's in the codex, copy/pasted with a movement value tacked on, or are they going for a full everything fix across all armies?
I think more like the AoS data slates; Models stats, attacks, brief info paragraph, models powers (if in a unit of X, each model gets +1 to thier attacks) Optional weapons info (one paragraph for Gauss and one paragraph for Tesla) special buffs and some info on formations.
I saw a few data slates for Space Marines, Nurgle, Khorn and Orkz but not sure if they are fake or just mock-ups but they looked pretty good. I could try and find them?
Unless your going against a deepstrike heavy army where there would be multiple different units that would need Ethereal Interception, one big squad would be preferable?
If they are hunting for meltas, then MSU would be pref, but if its a deathstar/one singular big threat (Yncarne for example) then I'd go with one big squad.
I've run them against the deepstriking tyranid monsters (Tervigons?), and found that the big squads were more effective.
I would go for a full unit of 10, if they Deepstrike in the rignt place you can then get rapid-firw shoots wounding on 2+ On their 1st turn of Deepstriking.
2 units of 5 would be better against horde armies or armies with lots of bodies.
If you have the number of models I would run 2 units of 8. Can act like the 2 units of 5 but nearly do as much damage as a unit of 10 which will give you better coverage in taking down your opponents army.
Are you playing a game in the near future or are you just wondering what most people would consider better?
I feel its reliant on what army you are facing. I don't run them often unless I know my opponent runs a deep-strike heavy army (GK, my friends tyranids etc) as I personally hate having a strategy relying on reserve rolls and their etheral interception rule allows me to bypass the randomness and guarantees they come on when I need them to.
Do you plan on running them in deepstrike reserve as throw away assassin squads? If so I feel two squads of 5 increase the chance of at least one of them coming on T2 and trying to put the hurt on a critical unit. If both come on, great, double the damage, and gives more flexibility on what to hurt.
They also have a smaller footprint, which can help when deepstriking into their backlines as they might still have lots of models there.
If you are using them for etheral interception then a squad of 10 is the go, as there will probably be less clutter for their footprint to mishap on (they are following something else that is DS in, so the other unit will be much further up the board than the rest of their army). Additionally, whatever the opponent is DS is usually going to be a big scary capable of dishing out lots of hurt, so killing it before it hits lays it out saves your army, while also freeing up other units to do other things in the game.
Just an idea for a list. Got 10, don't know how to best utilize them... though I liked that two-units-of-8 idea. I'd need to get some more guys. Perhaps one more box, so I can try two units of 7, at least.
I had phase shifters on everything that is present, but then I had a thought. A shifter is 25 points, which is the exact same amount of points as a lychguard.
You want shifters for challenges, as most things that challenge have AP2, but I have enough ancillary characters that can be fed to challenges (lord once his staff is popped, Zandrekh and obryn once his mantle is popped) that will keep the PE and RR 1's alive for much longer, and the 50 points adds two whole lychguard, which can LOS and tank for the unit, with a 3++ instead of a 4++, adds more wounds to the whole unit, more attacks etc. seems like a good trade off in this regard?
If there were less characters then shifters would be necessary, but I'm going to run this next week and see how it goes.
I think Im up against a Cawl Convo, or a Cawl deathstar in a CAD so im not really worried about too many challenges, and my deathstar should be more choppy while also more survivable than his. But whatever Im against Im against I know there wont be many challenges.
If your against a Cawl Convo you might need weapons that are AP 3/2. If your opponent is using a IK then you will need Heavy Destroyers and Stalkers to deal with it "comfortably". Also the Dunecrawler can have a Neutron Laser that is strength 10 ap 1 range 48" blast weapon that will rip-through anything we have. So be wary of those units. Also kataphon breachers/destroyers are a pretty good unit and can dish out lots of damage as well.
So your making a Deathstar via CADHQs and a "royal court" via a Decurion. I would swap the lord for a Cryptek. Extra +1 RP and if you get an instadeath situation then your RP will still stay 4+ due to the Cryptek and Orikan. Or, you could drop the Lord to get another 2-3 Lynchguard.
Droping a Shifter for a 3++ Lynchguard isn't a bad trade. Even though they cost 5pts more due to the Sword&Shield
EDIT
Off topic;
I was on a thread for Necron list and suggested someone put an O lord with Flayed Ones and have them infiltrate. Another user then replied to me with this information
The lord is the solar staff delivery unit, cheaper than a cryptek and points are tight. The majority is in the decurion, so 4+++ normally, and with Orikan its always going to stay at 4+++, and the only two characters not in the decurion are the D/lord (who will never be getting doubled out, and a lord whose fate does not bother me after the staff is popped.
Im bringing two death ray sentry pylons, wanna see what they can do on in a full sized battle. So I figure between them and the warscythes in the deathstar I can comfortable take out the dunecrawlers, as a single pylon took out two in a 500pt game.
Yea I'd say if the HQ doesn't have the rule, then they cant. Obviously it was ambiguous, as there had to be an FAQ to fix the problem. So looks like you cant add a HQ to the FO's
Lord vs Cryptek is about 15pts difference is you give them the same equipment. You could probably find a way to squeeze it in.
Well thats true but orikan will go to a 5+++ if its an instadeath situation because it is not in the decurion and insta-death is -1+++ so be up to 5+++. With the Cryptek the 2 of them will be 4+++ like the Decurion even against insta-death.
However, I guess the deathstar will keep orikan protected even when/if it goes super-sayian.
1849. bare bones CAD, bare bones decurion, FO as aux, 2 death ray pylons and the deathstar.
Orikan is in the Royal Court, which is inside the Decurion, which benefits from the everliving rule, giving him a natural 4+++, and his master chronomancer rule means everyone in the star will always be 4+++, except for the CAD lord.
And the lord has a better stat line than a cryptek
Klowny wrote: So looks like you cant add a HQ to the FO's if you want them to infiltrate.
Fixed that for you.
Though what role would you be wanting the FOs to do? They don't usually need an HQ attached if they're going to be playing disruption, and they're plenty killy on their own.
Klowny wrote: So looks like you cant add a HQ to the FO's if you want them to infiltrate.
Fixed that for you.
Though what role would you be wanting the FOs to do? They don't usually need an HQ attached if they're going to be playing disruption, and they're plenty killy on their own.
Yep cheers Skoffs, did mean to add that. Super late over here
I used to think Nemesor with FO was a good unit due to Nemesor able to pick warlord traits that can buff the unit up and being able to give the unit extra buffs if an enemy unit was within 24 inches of Nemesor. But now it looks like that plan is no more
Pylon-Star? If a pylon is stationary and can either deploy normally or by Deepstrike. How would you be able to run a star around a Pylon?
Klowny wrote: 1849. bare bones CAD, bare bones decurion, FO as aux, 2 death ray pylons and the deathstar.
Wait, are you running an Orikan-Lych-star AND a couple of Pylons on their own??
Why not just run Pylon-star?
Yea I am I'm just in the mood for an orikan-star, and I just wanted to see what some unbuffed pylons can do in a full sized game. Im bringing two seperate ones. Want a baseline I can compare a pylon-star to. Am going to run a pylon star eventually.
A pylon star Odrankt, is where you get a couple of death ray pylons, Anrakyr, obryn (minimum), and a couple more HQ's if you want to sink the points to make it super strong, D/Lord for PE, Orikan for 1 RR's, and a solar staff and veil, etc. T1 GWM them up the board, and because Anrakyr confers relentless to the unit, it enables the pylons to fire. Then pop the staff, shoot again T2, and tank with the HQ's for days. They also provide a good defense for CC and you can use the veil to get out of bad combats and continue raining death.
I just had a thought. The canoptek artillery rule states that the pylons can never be locked in combat and that after attacking, the attackers MUST consolidate away. If they are in combat with a unit containing the pylons, does this mean that the pylons stay locked in combat due to the IC's being in the unit, or does it override this and force the attackers to consolidate even if they are in b2b with the IC's?
Klowny wrote: If they are in combat with a unit containing the pylons, does this mean that the pylons stay locked in combat due to the IC's being in the unit, or does it override this and force the attackers to consolidate even if they are in b2b with the IC's?
The pylons stay locked in combat due to the IC's being in the unit. The Canoptek Artillery rule does not transfer over to the ICs due to the GWBRBFAQ.
Spoiler:
Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation special rules (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No. The Formation special rules themselves do not apply to characters that join the Formation (unless specifically stated otherwise), although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn.
Yea that was my line of thinking, I opened a thread in YMDC though. So the canoptek artillery rule is ignored then? I thought codex specific rules override BRB rules?
Or is it that the canoptek artillery break from combat (following their rule) and the IC's stay locked?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule does not apply to the IC's but it doesn't mean the rule is ignored and the artillery themselves stay locked?
Unless there has been precedence of similar things like this happening in the past? It's a clunky rule for sure.
Well, if there are no IC's, then 100% yes. They cant be locked in combat, so the unit charges in, attacks them, and consolidates away. Whatever number of pylons are left standing can immediately turn and point their beams directly at the units that charged them that previous turn.
Considering they are T7, 3W, automatically hit and only a 3+ save, I'd say any dedicated CC unit would be able to chop them down. Hell a single powerfist with 3A could do it by itself. But otherwise they are definitely going to get exploded the next round.
Ah, right, majority toughness 7.
*THAT* was the reason to include a Cryptek in the Deathstar.
...
Though to have it still work with only 2 Pylons in the unit you would need:
2x T7 (Pylons)
1x T6 (Destroyer Lord w/ Veil)
2x T5 (Anrakyr+Obyron)
2x T4 (Orikan+Cryptek w/ Solar)
Looks a little pricey...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder,
How bad would it be to just run the minimum? (2 Sentries, Anrakyr, and a Cryptek with the Veil)
A pylon star Odrankt, is where you get a couple of death ray pylons, Anrakyr, obryn (minimum), and a couple more HQ's if you want to sink the points to make it super strong, D/Lord for PE, Orikan for 1 RR's, and a solar staff and veil, etc.
Looks like I need to buy another Pylon... I never thought of this. So essentially the star can deepstrike twice via obryn and the VoD. Pylon has s chance at surviving and can defend its self in CC due to the ICs. Good idea.
The pylons stay locked in combat due to the IC's being in the unit. The Canoptek Artillery rule does not transfer over to the ICs due to the GWBRBFAQ.
Does the Pylons "Canoptek Artillery" rule work like the Nightbringers Gaze of Death? Because in CC the C'tan can still use GoD. So, if there are ICs joined like the star to the pylon and the unit gets in CC can the pylon still shoot its weapons while in CC because it technically cant be locked in CC?
The pylons stay locked in combat due to the IC's being in the unit. The Canoptek Artillery rule does not transfer over to the ICs due to the GWBRBFAQ.
Does the Pylons "Canoptek Artillery" rule work like the Nightbringers Gaze of Death? Because in CC the C'tan can still use GoD. So, if there are ICs joined like the star to the pylon and the unit gets in CC can the pylon still shoot its weapons while in CC because it technically cant be locked in CC?
nah I dont think so, the rule feels kinda clunky, it works fine if no IC's are attached, but it sorta breaks the game a tad when you do. TBH im fairly sure tournaments run it so if they get charged in CC, with IC's attached, they are locked in combat until the combat is resolved. Therefor making the veil a must have.
nah I dont think so, the rule feels kinda clunky, it works fine if no IC's are attached, but it sorta breaks the game a tad when you do. TBH im fairly sure tournaments run it so if they get charged in CC, with IC's attached, they are locked in combat until the combat is resolved. Therefor making the veil a must have.
You could run 2 CADS. 1 with two Obyrons an the other with a Destroyer lord with Vod/Nshroud and Orikan/Cryptek/Anyakyr . That way you can Deepstrike a total of 3 times and your Toughness for the unit will be T6/7.
There is a load of way to field it I guess but if yourdoing a bare-bones CAD and Decurion you will justneed to find a solution. Could deepstrike and have all the ICs leave the Pylon and act as bodyguards and then reattach to deepstrike again.
nah I dont think so, the rule feels kinda clunky, it works fine if no IC's are attached, but it sorta breaks the game a tad when you do. TBH im fairly sure tournaments run it so if they get charged in CC, with IC's attached, they are locked in combat until the combat is resolved. Therefor making the veil a must have.
You could run 2 CADS. 1 with two Obyrons an the other with a Destroyer lord with Vod/Nshroud and Orikan/Cryptek/Anyakyr . That way you can Deepstrike a total of 3 times and your Toughness for the unit will be T6/7.
There is a load of way to field it I guess but if yourdoing a bare-bones CAD and Decurion you will justneed to find a solution. Could deepstrike and have all the ICs leave the Pylon and act as bodyguards and then reattach to deepstrike again.
You can't have two of the same Character in an army... they are unique, right?
Well, except maybe for Trayzn... Trayzn could bring a fluffy army of all Trayzns. If they ever take away his ability to jack other Characters, I hope that they replace it with the ability to take multiples of him... wouln't that be fun?
Haha yea, i dont want to run a pylon star this time, want to see their performance without the shenanigans.
Topic change.
Anyone played SW:A? how do we fare? we look elite, and really brutal with shooting, but it appears we have to spend a lot of promethium to have reliable CC threats. Hopefully we can just shoot them to pieces.
I feel shadowlooms and photovisors on the immortals is a really good combo, and rolling on the shooting tree is an obvious choice.
Whoa, what?
Had no idea Necrons were usable in Shadow Wars: Armageddon.
(Thought it was just another one of those "just the guys that come in the box" games).
Will have to look into it, now.
Ive played a few times. Were good but very limited. Our units cost a lot if points (A.Immortal is 200, Immortals are 110, Warriors are 80 and Deatmarks are 120).
Everything moves 4 inches and have the same stats, our weapons cost 40pt for gauss flayers and 60-65 on gauss blaster and tesla carabine. Shadowloom only grant cover (doesnt stack) so for 30 pts only worth giving to a unit in Overwatch (Immortal with Tesla is the best Overwatch option we have). Photo-visior take away cover (full cover is +2 and makes it to a +1, +1 then goes to 0+)I think we need to be stationary to get the effects. Deathmarks are great with the visior.
Deathmark can only come on turn 2 but they work well. You pick an opponents model before T1 deployment. On T2 you then deploy the Deathmarker within 8 inches of the choose target. I think this is how Deepstrike works now and I feel 8th edition might use the same rules. Our warriors can never become immortals so better off running immortals/deathmarks and getting them via end game points. We have Lynchguard and Prets for CC but there Spec Ops units and can only last 1 game unless you have enough promethium points to get more.
Gauss now works like shread which helps a lot. Also for 1000pt we can have invetween 5-6 models.
I'm intrigued.
Looked at the other factions supplement found on GW's SW:A page. Can't really grasp what's​what yet, so I'm gonna have to do some more research.
22nd of this month the book comes back out again. Its available from russia now.
I dont have the rules, but it seems we are quite proficient with shooting. Not a CC army, but BS4 with a photo visor means reliably hitting on 3's more often than not, I feel a chronometron is good, with running its a -2 to shooting at the model, even when out in the open. If you roll enough times on the shooting chart you can run and shoot, making it pretty nasty combo. Especially with a -2 to armour that the guass blasters are, with shred. And you can twin link them in the shooting tree too.
Im going to bring two warriors without weapons, just have them chill/grab objectives, when they last three games they lvl up to immortals, then you can give them weapons for a much reduced price.
I was hoping a basic rundown of the rules/how to build a list would be posted online already, but not even 1d4chan had anything up yet.
Help me out, here.
- We've got 1000 points to play with. Are the only things we take from in the faction specific supplement? (see spoiler below)
- Need a leader... but apart from that anything goes? Are there certain minimums​ and maximums?
- What's the deal with specialist​s, specialized equipment and special operatives? What's stopping us from playing a list of nothing but Deathmarks, Lychguard and Praetorians?
Im going to bring two warriors without weapons, just have them chill/grab objectives, when they last three games they lvl up to immortals, then you can give them weapons for a much reduced price
unfortunately this isn't the case. You get warriors as new recruits and after 3 games they become trooper warriors in which they keep the same stats but can now get bonuses through shooting skills. They don't upgrade to Immortals. If you look at the PDF of Necrons (skoffs spoiler) you will see the chart. I also think you need to give your warriors weapon. I dont think we can just go out and get objectives with vanilla units?
We've got 1000 points to play with. Are the only things we take from in the faction specific supplement?
Yes, we can't get any other equipment besides the ones that are stated. The Photo-Visior is available to every army though.
- Need a leader... but apart from that anything goes? Are there certain minimums​ and maximums?
1 Leader, 2 Specialist (2 Deathmarks) any amount of Troopers (if you have the points) and recurits have to be less then half of the total number of the unit e.g if I have a unit of 5 models and 3 of them are warriors then it can not be used. If I have 3 other models and 2 recurits then everything is all good. If you have 6 models in the unit and 3 are 1 leader and 2 deathmarks and the rest is 3 warriors then the list is good because recruits take less then half of the total unit number.
What's the deal with specialist​s, specialized equipment and special operatives? What's stopping us from playing a list of nothing but Deathmarks, Lychguard and Praetorians?
Specialists (Spec Ops) units can only be used via promethium points. 1 P-point = 1 Spec ops unit with any upgrades that are listed for the model. So if I have 3 P-points I can use 2 to get two spec ops units (a lynchguard or praetorian) and one to add 100 extra points to my army to either add more equipment or get new recruits. You only get P-points at the end of a game by either holding them till the game ends, winning the game or you get 1 even if you lose. Your very 1st game can never have Spec Ops units or go past 1000pts. Anything goes after the 1st game. Also Spec Ops only last 1 game each so if I got a Pret for game 2 then he will be gone for game 3 as I only "called" them in for game 2. Deathmarks dont need P-points to be used so they can be fielded normally. You can only have up to 2 Specalist though so not sure how that works when you bring in Spec Op models.
Odrankt wrote: 1 Leader, 2 Specialist (2 Deathmarks) any amount of Troopers (if you have the points) and recurits have to be less then half of the total number of the unit
So is that maximum 2 Specialists, or you MUST bring 2 Specialists?
I imagine it would probably be something like-
Leader = 1
Specialists = 0-2
Troopers = 0-5
Recruits = >50% of the above
I think I read somewhere that Special Ops are zero points, that the Promethium Points were all they cost. Have no way to check this, though.
A little disappointed they couldn't find a way to fit Flayed Ones in.
Odrankt wrote: 1 Leader, 2 Specialist (2 Deathmarks) any amount of Troopers (if you have the points) and recurits have to be less then half of the total number of the unit
So is that maximum 2 Specialists, or you MUST bring 2 Specialists?
I imagine it would probably be something like-
Leader = 1
Specialists = 0-2
Troopers = 0-5
Recruits = >50% of the above
I think I read somewhere that Special Ops are zero points, that the Promethium Points were all they cost. Have no way to check this, though.
A little disappointed they couldn't find a way to fit Flayed Ones in.
You've pretty much got the starting allowances down. It's 0-2 Specialists.
Special Ops 'Promethium Caches' are what the game revolves around. You need 15 to win a campaign, and you get them from playing games. Typically you'll get D3 for Winning and 1 for a loss. There is a pre-game roll, as well as certain scenarios which can affect this, but that the general Idea. Promethium Caches can be used in a variety of ways, slowing down a players progress, but might be necessary. The most common use will be to spend one to add 100 points when you Recruit a new model, since only a Gunless Warrior can be purchased with the basic 100 you'll get at the end of the game. The other common way is for 'Special Ops'. You spend the point pre-game, and you get the Lychguard/Praetorian for 1 game only. You can't buy them gear, they don't stick around, and if you pay to have him again, you get a fresh one.
Flayed Ones While I too am disappointed there isn't any CC option, after seeing a few games, I don't think they'd be worth it. It might be hard to explain until you play some games, but CC is very violent. While Phase Shifters allow us to move through Terrain w/o penalty, we can still only charge models out of LoS if they are within Initx2. It would be NICE to have a model with more attacks, it really doesn't make much of a difference since you only the highest die roll applies. I've seen a Deathmark take down 2 Harlequins because he rolled a single 6, and the Harlequin player didn't roll above a 2 on 4 dice. In the case of a tie, the higher Initiative gets 1 hit in, so we're doomed there since opponents only have to get a tie to beat us. The odd thing is that we'll often be able to take a charge with our modified recovery, but at a stacking -1 to WS/BS each time we can lose on a 6.
So yeah, Flayed Ones would be nice, but I don't think they'd be that effective.
*****
One thing I did notice is absent on a few of the other armies, is the lack of Size Restriction. All armies are minimum 3 models, and those with a Cap are listed on their roster. Don't know if we're stuck at 10 or if we're open.
Hi guys, I'm taking part in a 4 week SW:A campaign, and I need some info...
I'm currently running g an Appointed immortal with 4 other immortals,all armed with Gauss blasters, for 940pts.
What should I spend the other 60pts on? I'm thinking either give the 4 immortals photo visors for that +1 BS against in cover/running enemies, or give 2 immortals shadowlooms for perma -1BS and use them as LoS blockers while moving the group together?
I find phase shifter to be situational at best, and will only be issuing them if I have a surplus of points. Also, once I earn points, what should be the next step? Gear up existing troops, or get extra ones?
- I haven't found Shadowlooms to be worth it. It's a good chunk of points and sadly it doesn't stack. So you don't become any harder to hit once you're behind cover.
- Phase Shifters are pretty good for if you don't escape pinning. You still get a 2" move, and can simply walk back through a wall.
- Photo Visors require you to remain still to get the bonus. I've only just started playing around with them, but they're on Tesla Immortals who will be on Overwatch. Anytime my Gauss guys go on Overwatch, my opponent just avoids line of sight. If he has to cross from one building to another, then we have to take an Init test to even be able to shoot, and you can guess how that goes.
- Adding more models is the way to go. We'll have to spend a Cache to get anything other than a Gunless Warrior. For the points I'd rather get an Immortal, since the Warrior statline doesn't change on promotion.
Weren't Deathmarks supposed to be pretty good in SW:A?
Would it be worth trying to integrate one into a beginning list, or wait until you have more resources?
The Deathmarks have been great for the games where opponents haven't played them. Once your opponent figures out how to deal with them, it's no big deal.
- You have to deploy within 8" of the target, so your opponent will just put him in a corner.
- You still have to shoot the closest target, so if you manage to pick a key target, he can just put models in the way.
- It's not hard to force the Deathmark into a position where it can't shoot by setting up Overwatch. If you get hit at all on Overwatch, you're pinned and have lost the surprise factor.
- It's a single shot weapon and it's the weakest of the weapons for a 'specialist'. My opponents have already figured out to run another model within 2" of the Target. If you only manage to pin the target, which so far has been easier than actually taking them down, they can simply roll to escape pinning.
Even in the best situation of getting into a position, surviving Overwatch, and actually taking your target 'Down', you've got this model out that is very easily shot back at, or worse, charged. I believe the idea was to pop out, take out a key model, and then clean up with the rest of the army. After a few games in, they're lucky if they manage to hit something. In the one game where I've had him take down his target and survive to participate, his weapon is only 18".
They are great, but most I'd run on starting lists is 1, since it will still force your opponent to commit models to dealing with the Deathmark. We've got a few players who have hit their 10 model teams, and they just don't really care anymore. You should definitely add at least one later on, as some skill advances could really help out, but I'd wait until you got some advances on the Immortals for a stronger team.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah I'd probably try and do a list with the Appointed Immortal, 3 Immortals, and a Deathmark. Is that doable?
That's what I've been running for 1 off games, and it's a great start.
What does that list look like? I'm new to this thing. Would it be an appointed with a Blaster, 3 Immortals with a Blaster, and then the Deathmark with the rifle I forget the name of?
You have exactly 30pts leftover for a variety of preferences. The Tesla Immortals are pretty useful in the game with Sustained Fire. Haven't tried it, since I've already built my models specifically for SWA, but an all Tesla Starter isn't a bad start. I'll probably be adding 2 more down the road depending on how playtesting the Warriors goes. I initially ran Phase Shifters on the Tesla Immortals to start out with, but at the suggestion of another Cron player, I've been playing around with Photo-visors on them. They've been pretty good placing one on Overwatch while the other moves into position. Next turn the one that moved goes on Overwatch while the other moves.
I also used that 30 points to put a Shadowloom on the Deathmark, which worked well enough to get him to do his thing. (Standard Overwatch will be at a -2 to hit with it) I see it being a pretty good combo, especially if you start getting some skills involved. It's a preference, as more often than not, all I managed to do was pin the target, he escapes, and it's a dead Deathmark anyways. I don't want to sound down on the DM's but when Gauss is re-rolling to wound, it's a preference to invest in the Immortals.
* My original list runs a 5th Immortal with Gauss/Phase Shifter instead of the Deathmark. I didn't build my first kit with any Deathmarks. When I saw one in action I split a box and built 2 DM's. Now that I'm quite a few games in, I'm back to 'meh'. I will probably go back to that as a Starter, and pick up a Deathmark after the game, unless i'm lucky and can get 2 Warriors.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now is Tesla actually good to have around or is it just that much cheaper? All my Tesla Immortals went missing...
Tesla is actually 5 pts more. (and it's always been good to have around!).
Here is my best explanation, pick your poison.
The Long Version:
Spoiler:
Two Reasons:
1 - Sustained Fire. Each Tesla will fire D3 times. While Random, the opportunity to get multiple shots off at the target is handy to have when comparing it Gauss. Gauss leaves you happy when you manage to land that single hit. When you need to absolutely pin a target, take out Multi-wound models, fire at groups of targets, or just Overwatch, the Tesla becomes a bit more reliable. The biggest reason Tesla is handy ties into this, and it's reason 2.
2- When any model takes a hit (and fail their save), they take a Flesh Wound on the roll of 1. If they go down, then they get to roll at the end of each of their turns to try and get that roll of a '1' for a flesh wound and get back in the fight. Necrons are awesome, because on that recovery roll, we get that Flesh Wound on a 1-3. There is a HUGE drawback to this though, and that is the stacking -1 BS/WS (to a minimum of 1) for each time it happens. So after a few flesh wounds, your Gauss Immortals single shot is going to become less common. You're going to have the same chance to hit with the Tesla, but at least you're going to get more chances at terrible shots.
TLR
Get Two, and you'll be able to remain a threat in the game long enough for your opponent to fail his Bottle Test before you fail yours.
-----
Majority of my games have been won by using the Gauss to just get him down 25% and waiting for him to fail. After that they're pretty much hobbling around at BS1 trying desperately to avoid CC. The Tesla Immortals have been great at covering their retreat, and even after a flesh wound or two, still manage to land a pinning hit.
Hmm yea I was wondering what the advantage of tesla is over gauss, the sustained fire just didn't seem to have enough of an edge over the higher quality shot of the gauss, but this makes much sense now.
Luckily I have both, swapping more tesla in now
How frustrating is it that immortals are 110 points base, expensive to add more in considering we lose the excess points.
Klowny wrote: How frustrating is it that immortals are 110 points base, expensive to add more in considering we lose the excess points.
We still get to add Weapons and Gear when we recruit. We just can't swap any gear when we recruit. I think the restrictions on guns being limited to models and the limited gear options will prevent us from choosing the Rearm option vey often when compared to the other armies. Even when we do, we could just as easily buy the gear instead of moving it around.
An Immortal with Gauss, Phase Shifter and Photo Visor comes to 200 even. Tesla and Phase or Photo comes to 190, so the lost points isn't that big of a deal when you look at it. There are some armies that can only add certain models if they manage to land a scenario bonus of 100 points and spend the Cache. Puts us kind of in the middle, we're only adding one model, but we aren't dependent on the stars aligning to replace one either.
I think this is where Warriors frustrate me the most to be honest. We have to spend the Cache to be able to equip a Warrior. It gives us more points to add more gear like a Shadowloom or even play around with MSS so that we don't waste the excess points. The gear has to go on a recruit until we rearm, when we could've just rearmed and put the gear on the other models in the first place. After all of that though, you've got a Recruit that has to survive 3 games before it can advance, is stuck being a Warrior with Gauss Flayer and 4+ save, and takes up a slot on the roster.
While it's still early, I can only see Warriors being taken in 2 Different situations. One, you spend the Cache to put two Gunless Warriors on the roster with the intent to Rearm after the next game, and just keep then out of the fight so they can gain the advance. This is what I'm going to try next time around while we're still at a point where the starting team doesn't need the help. Second would be winning a scenario where we get the bonus 100 points. Spending the Cache in this instance will land us two Warriors with Guns and Phase for 290 points.
While I am going to play around with it, I still think having the Immortals with the better Gun, better save, and ability to get advances a faster, more efficient option.
Klowny wrote: How frustrating is it that immortals are 110 points base, expensive to add more in considering we lose the excess points.
We still get to add Weapons and Gear when we recruit. We just can't swap any gear when we recruit. I think the restrictions on guns being limited to models and the limited gear options will prevent us from choosing the Rearm option vey often when compared to the other armies. Even when we do, we could just as easily buy the gear instead of moving it around.
An Immortal with Gauss, Phase Shifter and Photo Visor comes to 200 even. Tesla and Phase or Photo comes to 190, so the lost points isn't that big of a deal when you look at it. There are some armies that can only add certain models if they manage to land a scenario bonus of 100 points and spend the Cache. Puts us kind of in the middle, we're only adding one model, but we aren't dependent on the stars aligning to replace one either.
I think this is where Warriors frustrate me the most to be honest. We have to spend the Cache to be able to equip a Warrior. It gives us more points to add more gear like a Shadowloom or even play around with MSS so that we don't waste the excess points. The gear has to go on a recruit until we rearm, when we could've just rearmed and put the gear on the other models in the first place. After all of that though, you've got a Recruit that has to survive 3 games before it can advance, is stuck being a Warrior with Gauss Flayer and 4+ save, and takes up a slot on the roster.
While it's still early, I can only see Warriors being taken in 2 Different situations. One, you spend the Cache to put two Gunless Warriors on the roster with the intent to Rearm after the next game, and just keep then out of the fight so they can gain the advance. This is what I'm going to try next time around while we're still at a point where the starting team doesn't need the help. Second would be winning a scenario where we get the bonus 100 points. Spending the Cache in this instance will land us two Warriors with Guns and Phase for 290 points.
While I am going to play around with it, I still think having the Immortals with the better Gun, better save, and ability to get advances a faster, more efficient option.
Ah ok, I dont have the proper rulebook yet, just the dodgy online copy. I was under the assumption you could only recruit or rearm, I didnt realise that when you recruit you can purchase the models weapons aswell! Makes it a lot more palatable spending the promethium.
Instead of recruiting two warriors, another way to do it is to do the same concept of just having two weaponless models for a game and then arm them next game, but recruit an immortal and warrior. thats 190 points, then next game deck them out. You get a better chassis and weaponry options instead of two warriors, so only losing 10 points instead of 40
Klowny wrote: Instead of recruiting two warriors, another way to do it is to do the same concept of just having two weaponless models for a game and then arm them next game, but recruit an immortal and warrior. thats 190 points, then next game deck them out. You get a better chassis and weaponry options instead of two warriors, so only losing 10 points instead of 40
This is something that crossed my mind as well, and I think it's a personal preference if you choose to do this. You'd have to be sure that no points are wasted when you go to Rearm, which I haven't done. Main reason I'm not looking at doing it is because unlike Warriors, Immortals don't need to have their recruit status removed, so it's not important if they're standing at the end of the game or not. For me, I'd rather have that Immortal participating rather than just hiding. That's my 2 bits worth so you can make up your own mind.
I think the tougher call is the question about size. Several armies don't have a min-max listed. While 3 min is covered in the book, it just seems odd that some armies would have a cap and others to not have a cap. Assuming we're stuck with the 3-10, then those Warrior slots might hurt you late campaign. I can't seem to find it in my book, so not sure if I'm genuinely missing it or it's not there. Just a thought.
Klowny wrote: Instead of recruiting two warriors, another way to do it is to do the same concept of just having two weaponless models for a game and then arm them next game, but recruit an immortal and warrior. thats 190 points, then next game deck them out. You get a better chassis and weaponry options instead of two warriors, so only losing 10 points instead of 40
This is something that crossed my mind as well, and I think it's a personal preference if you choose to do this. You'd have to be sure that no points are wasted when you go to Rearm, which I haven't done. Main reason I'm not looking at doing it is because unlike Warriors, Immortals don't need to have their recruit status removed, so it's not important if they're standing at the end of the game or not. For me, I'd rather have that Immortal participating rather than just hiding. That's my 2 bits worth so you can make up your own mind.
I think the tougher call is the question about size. Several armies don't have a min-max listed. While 3 min is covered in the book, it just seems odd that some armies would have a cap and others to not have a cap. Assuming we're stuck with the 3-10, then those Warrior slots might hurt you late campaign. I can't seem to find it in my book, so not sure if I'm genuinely missing it or it's not there. Just a thought.
Hmm you make a good point about the immortals not doing anything for a game vs the warriors.
Yea I had the same question, I can't find anything limiting our size either
But their firepower seems so lacklustre given the size of the gun platform they are on.
Maybe if they could take a twin linked HGC, or as been stated many times, skyfire
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ran my star/pylon list today, went up against an IG/AdMech list.
1 pylon gave up first blood (took a whole armies worth of shooting though)
My deathstar was the star of the show, made its points back +110 extra. Killed cawl, 2 IG squads, 2x wyvers, 1x baneblade and 3 grav robots. Put in woooork. I didn't run phase shifters on most of the IC's and instead bumped up the lychguard numbers to 10.
Had he not had a large blast D template in his army, it would still have been at near full strength. The biggest problem with a star that big is mishaps. I was terrified of doing it, and nearly did.
Cawl is a monster. My voidreaper got killed off to the baneblade (failed 2+ LoS's this is why we need phase shifters!!!!) so he spent 4 rounds of combat not taking any damage. He couldn't do anything either but would. not. take. wounds. Luckily I managed to get him to fail a wound, then fail a leadership test, and then had to be removed as he was surrounded. After that my star (heavily weakened by this stage, 5 lych, orikan, zandrekh, obryn, D/Lord left) mulched everything it touched after that.
As he was more or less a static gun line I didn't get to see how much damage my pylons can put out. Putting them in a star and blinking it foward would have helped, but then again it would have put them into LoS of the baneblade, meaning a very swift death.
We also ran an Eternal War mission, which limited Zandrekh's special abilities. I wanted to use him as a tank, but then took him as my warlord so he could choose abilites.
He is a good tank, but I should have made someone else my warlord, crusader helped a bit, but not enough to limit the fact that I was scared to tank too much with him.
TBH Obryn is a good enough tank, with Orikan his 2+ is very tough, and any ap2 weapons you can just LoS to the lychguard. Another warscythe instead of zandrekh would have helped heaps more.
So the SWA page seems to have mixed results on our effectiveness. I haven't had a chance to play much of anything asides that one game recently, uni is pretty full on lately.
Are deathmarks really worth investing in? By the sounds of it unless they kill the thing they drop in to shoot, they can be sitting ducks. A sneaky tactic I've seen someone play is just equipping them with a MSS, and since the MSS nor the Etheral Interception needs LoS to work, you drop them into cover, away from harm, and try and control the opponents specialist.
Klowny wrote: A sneaky tactic I've seen someone play is just equipping them with a MSS, and since the MSS nor the Etheral Interception needs LoS to work, you drop them into cover, away from harm, and try and control the opponents specialist.
that is sneaky, how did it work out? Because I really want to figure out a way to make a DM or two useful in my team
Klowny wrote: A sneaky tactic I've seen someone play is just equipping them with a MSS, and since the MSS nor the Etheral Interception needs LoS to work, you drop them into cover, away from harm, and try and control the opponents specialist.
that is sneaky, how did it work out? Because I really want to figure out a way to make a DM or two useful in my team
Not sure my friend, saw it on the FB page for SW:A, in a post about the effectiveness of our necrons. Not sure how effective it is, but worth a shot at least? Otherwise I just cant see (havent played yet so this is all theorycrafting atm) why you would take a deathmark over an immortal. Their guns are so much better.
So, what, just Immortals?
A group of all the same guys?
That's a little boring...
(damn, there goes my hope of having a bunch of Deathmarks in my squad)
Deathmarks are good because they deploy T2 within 8" of the choose model you picked. Immortals weapons are better and stronger but the deathmark does have the advantage of T2 deployment.
If done correctly you could take out the most "dangerous" target with deathmark then have your 3-4 Immortals take out anything else or use the MSS tactic.
I like placing my deathmarks as high as possible to the model I deploying it with. Just so I have higher ground, out of my enemys other models gun range and LoS and can (hopefully) only be targeted by the 1 enemy I deployed to if they are able to get back up.
You could try MSS Deathmarks. Deploy T2 behind cover, try take over the best model you can. And then go shooty from T3 onwards.
Oh yea, I'm not sure myself as I haven't playtestd it, wanted an idea from people who have played it to get an idea of how we feel in general in the game.
GW have offically announced 8th Edition with a FaQ about the new edit.
All the armies will work
All the current models will work
New starter box (and maybe a new army) are on the way but thats on the downlow atm.
"Core" rules will be free to everyone via internet, warhammer app etc while the "fluff" and other parts of the game will be available to buy for people who want more then just the core rules.
Current codexs are going to be useless when the new edit drops. Completly new rules to older 40K editions.
No release date yet but they have said it will be out this year and to expect new information every week or 2 till it is released.
Yes, we can use everything that's currently for sale, but without knowing what changes will effect we might not want to use half our army anymore (they damn well better not make Destroyers suck. We FINALLY got them good, please don't take that away from us)
skoffs wrote: Yes, we can use everything that's currently for sale, but without knowing what changes will effect we might not want to use half our army anymore (they damn well better not make Destroyers suck. We FINALLY got them good, please don't take that away from us)
They were pretty cool in 4th edition but yeah I'm content with the current version.
Should be exciting. I am also a bit nervous because my army is pretty spammy, but as long as necrons as a whole stay competitive it should be okay. I hope they keep the Decurion and the whole way that the army assembles similar. I know a lot of people hate it but I think it's really cool thematically. Hopefully Monoliths get a boost because I want to paint one of those.
Apparently they've said that even the smallest of vehicles will have 10+ wounds (instead of AV) and that all anti vehicle weaponry will change to take off multiple wounds. If that's the case I feel the monolith will have lots and lots of wounds, might make it useful again.
I'm also hoping the DA's become good, a s10 ap1 pie plate does do a lot of work, it just dies too quickly. Open tipped an ap2 means it blows up on the reg. If they're taking away the Explodes! Result I will be a happy Chappy.
I really wish we could mix lychguard weaponry, having a couple of shields up front and a couple of warscythes woutd be awesome. Make a lychstar (even at small numbers) alot more scary
If you think Monoliths will have loads of wounds imagine how many the Obelisk will have!. Also, I wounder how the obelisk/T-Vault will work now? Do ye think Skyfire and all that buzz will stay or will every model be killable e.g. A basic troop choice can shoot and wound a flyer as if it wa a ground model and vice-a-versa.
I would like to have a reason to use bigger models more often as well as some FW models that I havnt picked up yet.
If "open-topped" and "AV" go then I can only hope that the CCB,CAB And DA will all be better now and more playable/survivable and the GA might be more of a beast as well. However, all the templates are supposed to be dis-continued for 8th edition so a Large Blast wont exist anymore meaning the DA attack will do its damage differently. we could have a whole new way of playing them.
I am super excited though for 8th editions full release and I am ready to start the next chapter in the 40K universe!
Templates are meant to go? haven't heard that yet. Wonder what they are going to do instead? I liked the template mechanic, and didn't see it as a problem, strange they are going to get rid of it
I think it is because its very time consuming putting plates over models and rolling to see where the blast goes. If your army has blast weapons and 4 of them are small templates and 2 are big templates then it will take time to see where the blasts go, how many models they cover and how many models get injured. Also planning which weapon to use 1st and what unit to hit takes time as well.
Nothing worse then targeting the majority of a unit only for the dice to throw your blast way of course and making your weapon do zero damage.
If temps are to go then i imagine there will be a damage/range modifier based on the wounds of the model. Like how behemoths work in AoS. Say 8th edition DA has a wound-count of 12 wounds then this is how I would imagine it will work. E.g.
--Wounds 12-10 Range 72 inches Damage 10/6+d6 models--
--Wounds 9-7 Range 48 inches Damage 8/6+d3 models--
--Wounds 6-4 Range 36 inches Damage 6 models--
--Wounds 3-0 Range 24 inches Damage 6 models--
I think something like this would work in 8th edit instead of templates. At full HP its strength 10 weapon can damage a total of 10 models per unit while if it has 2 wounds left then it can only fire at 24 inches, damage only 6 models per unit due to it sustaining damage while keeping its guns strength so it can still be useful even if it has wound modifiers. Then if teamed up with a Canoptek Sypder it can gets it wounds healed and go back to better range and damage count. I hope something like this will happening in 8th edition.
Sure enough, blast and templates can be solved by dice rolls, eg flamer could be 8" or 12" range, 3+d3 hits, ignores cover and Los-wounding
But hey are still a nice counter to grouping models closely together, ie area-of-effect weapons force models apart, while LOS and cover would group them closer, which is a nice balancing mechanic
Klowny wrote: Instead of recruiting two warriors, another way to do it is to do the same concept of just having two weaponless models for a game and then arm them next game, but recruit an immortal and warrior. thats 190 points, then next game deck them out. You get a better chassis and weaponry options instead of two warriors, so only losing 10 points instead of 40
This is something that crossed my mind as well, and I think it's a personal preference if you choose to do this. You'd have to be sure that no points are wasted when you go to Rearm, which I haven't done. Main reason I'm not looking at doing it is because unlike Warriors, Immortals don't need to have their recruit status removed, so it's not important if they're standing at the end of the game or not. For me, I'd rather have that Immortal participating rather than just hiding. That's my 2 bits worth so you can make up your own mind.
I think the tougher call is the question about size. Several armies don't have a min-max listed. While 3 min is covered in the book, it just seems odd that some armies would have a cap and others to not have a cap. Assuming we're stuck with the 3-10, then those Warrior slots might hurt you late campaign. I can't seem to find it in my book, so not sure if I'm genuinely missing it or it's not there. Just a thought.
You can't save points up (absent a house rule) from game to game. The only two ways to recruit Immortals mid-campaign is to either: (1) spend a cache, or (2) win and get lucky on the mission sub plot table.
For those talking about spending caches to recruit spec ops, remember that caches double as campaign points: you're literally putting yourself farther behind for a chance at getting ahead... again.
Klowny wrote: I really wish we could mix lychguard weaponry, having a couple of shields up front and a couple of warscythes would be awesome.
I've been wanting mixed wargear Lychguard ever since the models first came out.
...
Perhaps we could all make that suggestion on their FB page?
(they said to make suggestions there and they would consider them)
Shall we all list things we would like and suggest them to GW like skoffs said? If a few of us make the same suggestion GW might get intouch and let us know.
Spoiler:
I want the C'tan Shards to have better stats and to be somewhat decent.
Give the Canoptek Harvest the ability to have 2 sypders(Max) to spawn more scarabs.
Change the Decurion to have 2 units of Immortals and 1 Unit of Warriors to free up points.
Keep RP as 5+++ and can get better with certain HQs and Formations.
Swap the Cryptek's Chromothrons ability to have +1 RP to all models in the army to make it a better HQ choice.
Models in Units to have multi weapon choices e.g. 3 Immortals with Gauss Blaster and 2 with Tesla Carabines. 2 Lynch with sword/shield and 3 with scythes.
Deathmarks to have SW:A T2 deployment rule. That would make them great in 40K.
Give the HQs better Melee and Ranged weapons.
Give us a HQ that can use better Gauss and Tesla Guns (High-Ranked Immortals if at all possible).
TBH, for the ctan, rolling the power first is a good enough step up to make them useable again. Or pick the power and randomise the squad.
Mixing squads across the board is a bit unlikely, were meant to be mindless robots to an extent. But it doesn't make sense having an overlord, who's meant to be an incredible tactician, not mix up the weaponry in his personal cohort.
The t'ctan from apocalypse was pretty broken, probably not going to get that back.
If the decurion was 5+++ and a cryptek gave a 4+++ army wife with a chronometeon no one would ever take a decurion, as there would be no advantage over a CAD.
They had their opportunity to add in more spyders with the FAQ, but stuck to only meaning one. Can't see them going about face that decision so soon.
Should we ask for Ghost Arks to be able to carry all infantry, not just Warriors?
Other things,
- Warriors: fine
- Immortals: fine
- Lychguard: needs mixed wargear option
- Deathmarks: fine
- Praetorians: fine
- Flayed Ones: fine, but would cool if they could charge after deep strike
- Stalker: give it option for CCW, please
- Tomb Blades: fine
- Wraiths: fine, but I can see them either bumping up their price or reducing their T back down to 4
- Scarabs: fine
- Destroyers: fine
- Monolith: so many issues
- Annihilation Barge: Skyfire option, please. HGC would be nice, too
- Doomsday Ark: I dunno
- Heavy Destroyers: fine
- Spyders: fine
- Death Scythe: I dunno
- Night Scythe: I dunno
- Ghost Ark: see top of post
- C'tan: roll for power, THEN choose target
- Tesseract Vault: see above
- Obelisk: dunno
- HQ: so many issues
skoffs wrote: Should we ask for Ghost Arks to be able to carry all infantry, not just Warriors?
Other things,
- Warriors: fine
- Immortals: fine
- Lychguard: needs mixed wargear option
- Deathmarks: fine
- Praetorians: fine
- Flayed Ones: fine, but would cool if they could charge after deep strike
- Stalker: give it option for CCW, please
- Tomb Blades: fine
- Wraiths: fine, but I can see them either bumping up their price or reducing their T back down to 4
- Scarabs: fine
- Destroyers: fine
- Monolith: so many issues
- Annihilation Barge: Skyfire option, please. HGC would be nice, too
- Doomsday Ark: I dunno
- Heavy Destroyers: fine
- Spyders: fine
- Death Scythe: I dunno
- Night Scythe: I dunno
- Ghost Ark: see top of post
- C'tan: roll for power, THEN choose target
- Tesseract Vault: see above
- Obelisk: dunno
- HQ: so many issues
I pinpointed the actual issues in my fixes for the game. However since they're doing this I might abandon the project. Shame as I got halfway through the Space Wolves codex.
skoffs wrote: Should we ask for Ghost Arks to be able to carry all infantry, not just Warriors?
Other things,
- Warriors: fine
- Immortals: fine
- Lychguard: needs mixed wargear option
- Deathmarks: fine
- Praetorians: fine
I quite agree on these points.
- Flayed Ones: fine, but would cool if they could charge after deep strike
Yes... yes... whatever deepstrike comes to, give us some of this!
- Stalker: give it option for CCW, please
The problem comes in that there aren't and CCW's for the model. Adding them would require at least a recut of the model and $100,000's... and I don't see GW doing that in the near future.
- Tomb Blades: fine
- Wraiths: fine, but I can see them either bumping up their price or reducing their T back down to 4
- Scarabs: fine
- Destroyers: fine
Totally agree.
- Monolith: so many issues
So many of those problems would be fixed with a personalized damage table and... oh, say 20 wounds.
- Annihilation Barge: Skyfire option, please. HGC would be nice, too
Yeah... skyfire as an option or upgrade.
- Doomsday Ark: I dunno
This weapon would see a lot of use with save modifiers. Boy-howdy... 1 attacker (or 2 if stationary) with each hit causing d6 rend 2 wounds? Yes, please.
- Heavy Destroyers: fine
- Spyders: fine
Yep
- Death Scythe: I dunno
- Night Scythe: I dunno
It'll be interesting seeing how fliers operate. I don't see them working like flying in AoS.
- Ghost Ark: see top of post
- C'tan: roll for power, THEN choose target
- Tesseract Vault: see above
- Obelisk: dunno
- HQ: so many issues
Coupled with potentially tougher vehicles (due to wounds and not blowing up immediately due open topped and AP2/1 weapons) it will make GA's full of warriors truly scary.
Realise that gauss worked on big stuff, by fishing for 6's. This will probably still be the case on tough equipment, but if we have shred on gauss, everything else in the game that you point gauss at with normal T will just evaporate.
I'm just excited all around. I have an ork dread mob army that is waiting to be played... as well as several variations of Silver Tide that I want to try as well. Just waiting... waiting.
I hope the Command Barge is useful in 8th edition. Everytime I use it it is destroyed T1-2. Doomsday Ark should be better now due to it taking wounds and not using templates anymore. It will probably still need to be stationary to be used at full power though.
Welp, I guess that means Gauss will probably be like what it is in SW:A, then.
I could see Gauss work like it does now but with a bit of rule changing to fit the new edition.
I would like it if during wound rolls 6s makes the target take an auto-wound with no saves allowed. I think something like this would be good as universal Shread would be way OP.
Gauss might work like Shred but then units that have shred (Flayed Ones) will have to either have Gauss on their claws or will need a new rule because you can't have 2 different rules do the exact same thing...
Off-Topic
Are we able to use datacards in 8th edition? Or will they be useless like the codexs.
I watched the Q&A on the 40k facebook page. Super excited now. Seems like a radical change, and the guys from frontline gaming have playtested every. single. unit. in the game! Seems like it will be alot more balanced. Fingeres crossed!
Spoiler:
Odrankt wrote: I hope the Command Barge is useful in 8th edition. Everytime I use it it is destroyed T1-2. Doomsday Ark should be better now due to it taking wounds and not using templates anymore. It will probably still need to be stationary to be used at full power though.
Welp, I guess that means Gauss will probably be like what it is in SW:A, then.
I could see Gauss work like it does now but with a bit of rule changing to fit the new edition.
I would like it if during wound rolls 6s makes the target take an auto-wound with no saves allowed. I think something like this would be good as universal Shread would be way OP.
Gauss might work like Shred but then units that have shred (Flayed Ones) will have to either have Gauss on their claws or will need a new rule because you can't have 2 different rules do the exact same thing...
Off-Topic
Are we able to use datacards in 8th edition? Or will they be useless like the codexs.
Armywide rending on rapid fire weapons is way more OP than army wide shred.
And theres many different rules that work very similar to others, just with different caveats. Hell our own RP is just a really good FNP....
On the topic of datacards/sheets, we've been told that there will be faction books at the start. They have said that 5 additional rulebooks will be released with the Generals Handbook. There will be an app eventually that contains the datasheets as well as the datasheets on the website. I've played around with the AoS app, and it really does let you play a game right from your phone or ipad.
They haven't released any more detail on the faction books, but I expect:
Imperium (may be split into 2 books, but honestly could go into three.)
Chaos
Eldar
Order Xenos (Necrons and Tau)
Destruction Xenos (Xenos may be combined into one book) Orks and Tyranids
Which means that I'm on the line for at least 2 books, maybe as many as three.
Armywide rending on rapid fire weapons is way more OP than army wide shred.
in the 7th edition yes, rending on 6s is more OP then shred. But if 8th edition is going to be game changing with no more AV and everything having Wounds then army wide shred can be OP.
Imagine 20 warriors rapid firing on a Rhino that is Wound based and every to-wound roll that misses can be re-rolled. That sounds pretty OP to me. Fair enough they can roll to-save but if we have a -1/-2 save modifier then nearly every unit we shoot against will go down unless they have an invul save.
I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.
And theres many different rules that work very similar to others, just with different caveats. Hell our own RP is just a really good FNP....
6th edition RP was different to 7th edition RP. I agree that our rule acting like a really good FNP is amazing but it is a little broken especially when its gets buffed to 4+++. I just want every unit to have an actual purpose and to make the game as balanced as possible. Having an army that shoots with shred-like-rules and CC with shred-like-rules would be a nightmare to go against
Rerolling Wounds on everything Guass would be dope in my book. As would something like 6s to wound are Rend -1/-2.
I just hope I can still use my Renegade Knight alongside the Necrons. I put a lot of effort into that conversion...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually the only 1 thing I REALLY REALLY want is for C'tan to be good. Just... make them good. I own one of each and would run an army with three at the drop of a hat.
Interesting to see the Sautekh dynasty getting some significant prominence on the galactic map. Wonder if that's any indicator of whether we'll have more of a role in the main narrative this time instead of being relegated to background threat (Trazyn making an appearance in Gathering Storm has my hopes up).
skoffs wrote: Interesting to see the Sautekh dynasty getting some significant prominence on the galactic map. Wonder if that's any indicator of whether we'll have more of a role in the main narrative this time instead of being relegated to background threat (Trazyn making an appearance in Gathering Storm has my hopes up).
Yea both of these give me hope that we will feature more in the future.
What doesn't bode well for us is their statements that Chaos are the front and center bad guys again, and most of the xenos are being lumped together in one(or two) books, while CSM and the IOM get their own
skoffs wrote: Praetorians finally get to shine!
(I'm sure Wraiths will be fine, too)
And sytheguard! Finally have an excuse to run them!
But yes I hope Praets are going to be very good in this edition. I'd imagine they will have a high movement stat, and so long as the weapon statlines dont change too much, they will be able to position for charges alot better than the rest of our army.
skoffs wrote: Praetorians finally get to shine!
(I'm sure Wraiths will be fine, too)
And sytheguard! Finally have an excuse to run them!
Issue with those guys is, they'll probably still be pretty slow.
With no way to get them up the table AND charge in the same turn, they're almost always going to be receiving.
The rules team behind the new game have taken the opportunity to rebalance a lot of the weapons in the game, and with the new armour modifier system and removal of the cap of 10 on Strength values, we’ve made sure that every weapon has its use on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. D weapons, for example, are gone, and instead there is a scalable Strength and damage that matches the effectiveness you’d expect from every weapon.
Oh man, if they changed the choose-target-then-roll-for-powers for C'tan, I cannot WAIT to see how they turn out with these changes!
skoffs wrote: Praetorians finally get to shine!
(I'm sure Wraiths will be fine, too)
And sytheguard! Finally have an excuse to run them!
Issue with those guys is, they'll probably still be pretty slow.
With no way to get them up the table AND charge in the same turn, they're almost always going to be receiving.
You are very true. Hmm, hopefully GA's are more receptive to non-warrior models riding in them, or you can charge from disembarking from a night scythe.
skoffs wrote: From the community update about weapon profiles-
The rules team behind the new game have taken the opportunity to rebalance a lot of the weapons in the game, and with the new armour modifier system and removal of the cap of 10 on Strength values, we’ve made sure that every weapon has its use on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. D weapons, for example, are gone, and instead there is a scalable Strength and damage that matches the effectiveness you’d expect from every weapon.
Oh man, if they changed the choose-target-then-roll-for-powers for C'tan, I cannot WAIT to see how they turn out with these changes!
I feel like C'tan will be wildly different, but I know I may still be disappointed :(
I want to run Necrons that are light on bots but heavy on Monsters, Vehicles, and Canoptek units. Would be so much fun!
Units that can run multiple flamers benefit from this but I feel single flamer units/models lose out? Well, flaming a full squad they do, against single models/ units >6 models they are more effective. So it hurts us doubly so as the only way to have multiple flamers is in a royal court/Death Star. I suppose they will be mandatory in stuff like that now.
How will warscythes work now? Armourbane is null and void, will they be doing d6 wounds @ -3 save or something comparable?
Also, can see the doom scythe potentially making a huge comeback? Now that blast templates and armourbane are gone, its going to put out a TON of wounds.
Klowny wrote: How will warscythes work now? Armourbane is null and void, will they be doing d6 wounds @ -3 save or something comparable?
Also, can see the doom scythe potentially making a huge comeback? Now that blast templates and armourbane are gone, its going to put out a TON of wounds.
I'm thinking Warscythes will be wither d3 or 3 damage, doubled against Vehicle keyword. Rend -2 or better for sure.
The removal of blast is such a blessing for Doomsday Arks and Doom Scythes. Can't wait to put them back on the table!
It's looking like AP2 has become -3, if the Lascannon is anything to go by.
It might be safe to assume that would mean AP3 is going to be -2 and AP1 will be a very rare -4 (rare for man-carried weapons, anyway).
So if that's the case and AP4 = -1, will Immortals be worth taking over Warriors? (assuming Gauss Flayers will have a 0 armor modifier, like bolters). Because if so, yeah, might have to consider changing my Ghost Arks out for Doomsday Arks (unless Lychguard get to ride in them, fingers crossed)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oop, looks like the new one is up.
This time, movement-
I'm going to make a suggestion that is incredibly hard to actually follow (even for me).
Using the old rules PLUS the prior meta to assess the new rules using a hypothetical meta is the number one way to run into misassessments.
I'm not suggesting not to do it that way; it's fun to imagine old units with old rules in updated rule sets! But be onuard for false assumptions.
As an example, referring to skoffs's query about the role of Wraiths, consider the following:
Given they are revising all units in the game, is it reasonable to assume that Wraiths will be identical to their prior template in the re-hash? For example, Wraith whips in 6th forced them into striking first against anything in base to base, whichw as then revised to a simple 5-setting initiative. I'm not certain anyone totally predicted that they would therefore change roles from "killy" (remember Wraiths + Scythes was the go-to army?) to "tarpit" at first--even though many flagged that the new Harvest formation would make them more durable.
This change in role probably wasn't intentional by GW, especially given how moderately innocuous that wargear change was.
...so therefore, if (big "if!") the GW design intent for Wraiths is to be killy, with an option for striking first in most circumstance (or all, as in 6th) it's probably safe to assume that they will absolutely not be designed around the idea that they simply tarpit, and therefore it is a reasonable conclusion that (a) they will probably not be able to avoid folks retreating from them, and (b) that may not mean they're rubbish.
I suggest this same logic is useful for consideration elsewhere as well! Don't assume armourbane is going away nor that it will be useless; likely it will morph into a keyword triggered ability versus vehicles that may possibly be irrelevant versus infantry.
Finally, I would suggest it is unlikely in my view that Ghost Arks will be able to carry non-warrior units: likely because as modeled the vehicle appears to only have room for warriors. That's probably what drove the 7th ed. change.
True, it COULD be a full codex redo, but it will be more than likely that a bunch of entries will be practically the same.
In that eventuality it doesn't hurt to theorize... so long as you are aware it could be a complete upending of the codex.
(Shrodenger's Necrons: both exactly the same and completely different until you open the new book).
skoffs wrote: True, it COULD be a full codex redo, but it will be more than likely that a bunch of entries will be practically the same.
In that eventuality it doesn't hurt to theorize... so long as you are aware it could be a complete upending of the codex.
(Shrodenger's Necrons: both exactly the same and completely different until you open the new book).
skoffs wrote: Interesting to see the Sautekh dynasty getting some significant prominence on the galactic map. Wonder if that's any indicator of whether we'll have more of a role in the main narrative this time instead of being relegated to background threat (Trazyn making an appearance in Gathering Storm has my hopes up).
A man can dream. When he got announced, I was hoping either some Necron rules or a plastic Trazyn kit.
Worrying that our only mention on the Warzones page of the site is in the Baal sector as a side-party to Blood Angels. While the new narrative is supposed to be more focused on Imperium vs Chaos, I just hope we don't get brushed under the rug.
While I've been in the 'Wraiths are useless' boat for sometime now, I can't help but notice their further uselessness with the release of each of these teasers. Of course this is all subject to them in their current state, but we're speculating right?
- Weapons are going to do multiple Wounds. So using AT weapons on Wraiths is going to be a bit less risky, since failing that 3i save will probably wipe out models.
- The removal of a Strength Cap is going to increase the instances of Instant Death. While it's true that we haven't seen if Instant Death is going to remain in the game with the Multiple Wound Weapons, it's a shuddering thought to process that Lascannon going from D6 Wounds to D6 Instant Death Wounds. This is great news for Lascannons, or other single shot high strength weapons if casualty removal works like AoS does, since having these weapons will still do more than fry 1 guy in a horde army.
- Charging first strikes first has already been discussed, but what happens in Ongoing combats? We haven't gotten that info (unless I missed it). Comparing to AoS, we could have multiple units swinging against the Wraiths before they swing, which will be rough if we get a Battleshock mechanic.
- With no more Tarpits, any unit simply becomes an irritation to deal with rather than an actual problem. They've announced they're doing something to stop Deathstars, but for an army that wants to avoid CC until they can handle it, Wraiths may not be the best option. Even if they do get into CC, your opponent can now just leave combat, and bring in a heavier hitting unit, and will most likely go first. Junk Units now become a frustration for Wraiths. (** Fun idea, Maybe Whip Coils would prevent any unit from retreating?)
- With Psychic Powers now confirming that Mortal Wounds will be introduced, all armies will have a way to reduce the unit and bypass their resilience.
- Movement rules are still the same-ish, but combo'd with the ability to retreat from CC, their foot print is one of the smallest we have available. It might not be enough to offset their Movement Value.
Still not anything to worry about, and I'm liking everything I'm seeing so far. Just couldn't help but notice since other armies are also feeling like their fanboy unit is also being personally attacked.
Casualty Removal is the big one that I want to know. Maelstrom Missions are a close second, as I really don't want it to go away.
"Every faction will have its own psychic lore with a range of thematic powers"
EVERY faction? Crons getting psykers?
I think they clarified later that Necrons, tau and Dark Eldar will not get psykers, as normal.
Woops, ninja'd
Hope they buff gloom prisms. 3" range is worthless.
Akar wrote: While I've been in the 'Wraiths are useless' boat for sometime now, I can't help but notice their further uselessness with the release of each of these teasers. Of course this is all subject to them in their current state, but we're speculating right?
- Weapons are going to do multiple Wounds. So using AT weapons on Wraiths is going to be a bit less risky, since failing that 3i save will probably wipe out models.
- The removal of a Strength Cap is going to increase the instances of Instant Death. While it's true that we haven't seen if Instant Death is going to remain in the game with the Multiple Wound Weapons, it's a shuddering thought to process that Lascannon going from D6 Wounds to D6 Instant Death Wounds. This is great news for Lascannons, or other single shot high strength weapons if casualty removal works like AoS does, since having these weapons will still do more than fry 1 guy in a horde army.
- Charging first strikes first has already been discussed, but what happens in Ongoing combats? We haven't gotten that info (unless I missed it). Comparing to AoS, we could have multiple units swinging against the Wraiths before they swing, which will be rough if we get a Battleshock mechanic.
- With no more Tarpits, any unit simply becomes an irritation to deal with rather than an actual problem. They've announced they're doing something to stop Deathstars, but for an army that wants to avoid CC until they can handle it, Wraiths may not be the best option. Even if they do get into CC, your opponent can now just leave combat, and bring in a heavier hitting unit, and will most likely go first. Junk Units now become a frustration for Wraiths. (** Fun idea, Maybe Whip Coils would prevent any unit from retreating?)
- With Psychic Powers now confirming that Mortal Wounds will be introduced, all armies will have a way to reduce the unit and bypass their resilience.
- Movement rules are still the same-ish, but combo'd with the ability to retreat from CC, their foot print is one of the smallest we have available. It might not be enough to offset their Movement Value.
Still not anything to worry about, and I'm liking everything I'm seeing so far. Just couldn't help but notice since other armies are also feeling like their fanboy unit is also being personally attacked.
Casualty Removal is the big one that I want to know. Maelstrom Missions are a close second, as I really don't want it to go away.
And you're probably literally the only person in that boat about Wraiths so what's your point?
The reworked psychic phase looks a lot better, less time stuffing about by the sounds of it.
Also, since running is now done in the movement phase, maybe the whole 'I do a psychic shooting, then turbo boost out of harms way in my shooting phase' thing that chaos psykers used to love to do is gone the way of the dodo.
Whoever is running their social media accounts needs a raise.
They are doing a great deal to heal the hurt that the old management inflicted on the user base with years of cold neglect.
Klowny wrote: Also, since running is now done in the movement phase, maybe the whole 'I do a psychic shooting, then turbo boost out of harms way in my shooting phase' thing that chaos psykers used to love to do is gone the way of the dodo.
Any ideas on Destroyers and the Jump-Shoot-Jump since moving and running is done in the same phase/before shooting?
Klowny wrote: Also, since running is now done in the movement phase, maybe the whole 'I do a psychic shooting, then turbo boost out of harms way in my shooting phase' thing that chaos psykers used to love to do is gone the way of the dodo.
Any ideas on Destroyers and the Jump-Shoot-Jump since moving and running is done in the same phase/before shooting?
I expect that whole rule will be gone. Indeed, I'm not sure why they had different rules for Jump versus Jet Pack Infantry from a development perspective.
One is for assault, one is for shooting. Two variations for two different roles.
I would like destroyers to go back to being jetbikes. Call me a traditionalist, but they always felt more natural like that.
I don't think unit types like jump pack infantry, jetpack infantry, jet bike, are going to be a thing. Instead, they will have a movement value and the ability to ignore terrain while moving, and take dangerous terrain test if they end in terrain. Some might get extra movement when running to represent turbo boosting. I think tomb blades will be our fastest unit, followed by wraiths, followed by destroyers, with scarabs in there somewhere. I'm not sure on vehicles because a lot of the rules around barges seems to be punishment on awesome they were before our 7th ed codex. I'd guess barges are the fastest, followed by the arks, followed by our "When scenery attacks" units like the monolith and obelisk.
Another interesting question is how they will do quantum shielding or if they will even continue it. If I ran the zoo, I'd give our QS vehicles good armor saves (2+) at high wounds and mediocre armor saves (4+) as we progress down the wound chart to represent the shields failing as more damage is taken.
I'm also expecting us to be a slow army, at least for our infantry, like 4" inches slow. It's fluffy and will give us plenty of opportunities to be tough.
My final questions for the new edition is what happens to Gauss and Reanimation. Gauss will need to change since everything can wound on a six. I hope we end up with the Gauss rule from SW:A, which is rerolling failed to wounds. Reanimation is much trickier to guess, most likely it won't be a secondary save like it is now, so it probably goes back to being an end of the round thing. Beyond that, I can't even hazard a guess.
Yeah, I'm expecting 3"-4" movement as well for infantry.
You know what I would like? If we can teleport our troops instead of using transports. I never liked the idea of the Ghost Ark being a conventional transport vehicle; I'd rather it be a pure support vehicle, and for the necrons to use teleportation to get around the field, either by an item (veil), monolith or some sort of smaller monolith.
It seems like there will be no scatter dice anymore... for Deep Strike you just place it outside of a certain range of an enemy model. Granted, board control will be way more important.
That means a deep striking Monolith becomes easy...
I came to the game at the tail end of 5th, so I don't even own a Monolith. I see a purchase in my future.
Considering how slow our infantry are likely going to be, our infantry are going to require Ghost Ark, Night Scythe, or Monolith delivery to be able to reach objectives on the opponent's side of the battlefield.
Anpu-adom wrote: It seems like there will be no scatter dice anymore... for Deep Strike you just place it outside of a certain range of an enemy model. Granted, board control will be way more important.
That means a deep striking Monolith becomes easy...
I came to the game at the tail end of 5th, so I don't even own a Monolith. I see a purchase in my future.
This is actually important, because it could potentially help monoliths be worth their points again.
Anpu-adom wrote: It seems like there will be no scatter dice anymore... for Deep Strike you just place it outside of a certain range of an enemy model. Granted, board control will be way more important.
That means a deep striking Monolith becomes easy...
I came to the game at the tail end of 5th, so I don't even own a Monolith. I see a purchase in my future.
This is actually important, because it could potentially help monoliths be worth their points again.
I KNOW! Right? That, plus a lot of HP and a high save.
I expect most of our vehicles to have that combination of durability. The other option would be for them to have much lower saves, but have a regeneration ability. Either case, it will be very cool.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: One is for assault, one is for shooting. Two variations for two different roles.
I would like destroyers to go back to being jetbikes. Call me a traditionalist, but they always felt more natural like that.
But running is also done in the shooting phase in 7th, but it's moved to the movement phase in 8th, so the game flows better. I'd say all movement not in the movement phase will be gone now (except for Ynnari maybe)
Anpu-adom wrote: It seems like there will be no scatter dice anymore... for Deep Strike you just place it outside of a certain range of an enemy model. Granted, board control will be way more important.
That means a deep striking Monolith becomes easy...
I came to the game at the tail end of 5th, so I don't even own a Monolith. I see a purchase in my future.
This is actually important, because it could potentially help monoliths be worth their points again.
I KNOW! Right? That, plus a lot of HP and a high save.
I expect most of our vehicles to have that combination of durability. The other option would be for them to have much lower saves, but have a regeneration ability. Either case, it will be very cool.
Going by the stat line for dreadnoughts (AV12/12/10 --> T7 W8 3+ save), monoliths will probably be something like T9 W10 2+ save. Of course, there's also living metal to factor in. Might be rerolls to save.
Keep in mind though that armor mods are now a thing, so it won't be a 2+ rerollable. Unless your opponent is stupid enough to try to kill it with small arms.
Close combat weapons (which we’ll look at in more detail in future) also gain new rules – some will slice through armour easily, while others will hit with enough force to cause deal multiple wounds that can cripple or kill even powerful enemy models.
Obyron probably hitting on 2+, though it would probably be more fluffy to have him modify the attackers to-hit roll (eg. adds +1 to rolls, so 2+ becomes 3+, etc)
Overall the new assault phase is a massive buff to us. We're used to swinging last anyway, at least some of our units will get to swing first now once everyone's settled into combat.
Yeah, so...
Chargers resolve all attacks, and then you alternate activating units. When you activate a unit, you can do up to a 3-inch pile in, and then attack. No word on who chooses first for ongoing combats (or even after all the chargers have made their attacks) but it probably will be the player who's turn it is.
Oh... and you can spend command points to sneak activations in.
What will be interesting is how invulnerable saves will work. That wasn't expressly answered. AOS has ward saves that can be taken against moral wounds. Will 8th ed. have this? In AOS Wardsaves appear to be 1 worse than invulnerable saves. Will Lychguard have a 4+ ward save if they sword and board it?
Praetorians and Lychguard 2 wounds? They are effectively terminator replacements...
How much more will Praetorians rock being Jump infantry that get to assault first on the charge?
I believe they explicitly stated that Mortal Wounds ignore invuls.
I think they also said that Necrons have nothing to do in the psychic phase.
I hope they do an army by army summary later on when they are doing their teasers.
Shouldn't be too much later, I think. They are doing lore tomorrow followed by army lists.
Note:
- every unit can split fire... unfortunately for us, most of our units will consist of guys all carrying the same guns (Warriors, Immortals, etc.), but good news for Destroyers and Tomb Blades, I guess?
Note:
- every unit can split fire... unfortunately for us, most of our units will consist of guys all carrying the same guns (Warriors, Immortals, etc.), but good news for Destroyers and Tomb Blades, I guess?
Honestly, that's pretty bad for us. We used to rely on people spending their flashy weapons on our troops. We have no real benefit out of it. (I mean, apart from H.Destroyers/Destroyers, who might not even be able to join the same unit, since it's been like that for 6 editions)
Hopefully, "We'll be back.." will come back and we get some real toughness going and there's living metal and quantum shielding for our vehicles. Otherwise, our lack of special weapons might prove to be quite worrying.
EDIT: Also, I wouldn't count on new weapons choices for warriors. That's kind of our theme. Gauss flayers. All mindless zombie robots with the same weapons marching slowly and killing stuff. Here's hoping they will do something good with Gauss rule, at least, since now everyone can wound on 6's.
Don't forget, splitting same weapon models will also be a benefit. 10 warriors could fire 5 each on two small targets.
This is why the Ghost Ark will be a good transport to take. Moves faster. 10 extra shots and could do 5 shoots on 4 small targets instead of 2(excluding the warriors that are in rapid-fire range). If the GA still cost 105pts it will always be an auto-take for me anyway.
I wonder will the Doomscythes weapons have multi-targeting? Be nice to shoot the teslas at a flyer and shoot the death ray at ground units as well.
Point by point thoughts for the best army in the game:
1) Characters no longer join to units, but buff around them. This could be a massive boon to Crypteks, if they still give out the +1 to RP or other defensive bonus. If it goes back to Res Orbs, we'll see those out in force as well.
I wonder if the Destroyer Lord will still give out something similar to Preferred Enemy. It could be a massive bump for him - stick him in a wall of Warriors and get them all buffed up from shooting.
Hard to tell what the effect will be not knowing what our buffs will look like.
2) You can't shoot characters unless they're the closest target. For our Characters, this really makes me want to take lots of Warriors to walk in front of the Overlords and what not.
For enemy characters, I can forsee this being a big reason to take Deathmarks - the second there is a place for them to land behind a unit, they'll pop down and blast out a bunch of shots into the important Character in the back. With the death of the Scatter Dice, Deathmarks are going to become really scary pinpoint killers.
3) Blocking doesn't work for Characters more than 10 Wounds. If Gulliman only has 9, I don't imagine the Destroyer Lord having more than that, nor any of the foot dudes.
However, the CCB will probably be ~10-12 I would imagine, meaning while it'll be a good unit, it probably won't be a good idea to take one as your Warlord in case they have a way to pop it quickly.
4) Heroic Intervention will let Characters pile in and attack even if they aren't within 1". I can see us positioning Warscythe Characters in such a way that charging our Warriors or Immortals will drag in the scary melee units.
5) Without attaching or Look Out Sir, what of Lychguard? As the quintessential bodyguard unit, I would imagine they'll have some sort of rule that lets them absorb damage if they're nearby a Character (some bodyguard units in AoS have this), but we'll have to wait and see.
In this Guard article, they confirm Snipers will hit Characters even through units. Deathmarks a go-go!
They also give a Leman Russ a profile of W12/T8/3+. Stands to reason that our Arks will be around there, Monoliths probably tougher, Barges maybe a bit squishier.
Reckon C'tan are going to be good this edition? Their statline will get pretty beefy, if they reworked the powers a bit I can see them being stronk again.
We can only hope. With there being at least some focus on big strong things like Vehicles and MCs, we can assume they'll at least be better than current. But unknown if they'll go to "good".
So I guess attached ICs is no longer a thing. That means Crypteks and Lords won't be able to add special weapons/gear to a unit. Interesting change.
Also, since wounding is now a unified system, I wonder if they will go back to treating the CCB as a personal transport vehicle that the character embarks and disembarks. That would be cool and possibly allow you to put Nemesor Zandrekh back onto the CCB. Hopefully the CCB will have rules for getting characters to disembark and propel themselves into combat quickly.
With snipers out there able to kill characters, I wonder if putting characters into personal transport vehicles will protect them from snipers.
All in all, I am getting the impression that vehicles will be a necessity in Newhammer.
col_impact wrote: So I guess attached ICs is no longer a thing. That means Crypteks and Lords won't be able to add special weapons/gear to a unit. Interesting change.
Also, since wounding is now a unified system, I wonder if they will go back to treating the CCB as a personal transport vehicle that the character embarks and disembarks. That would be cool and possibly allow you to put Nemesor Zandrekh back onto the CCB. Hopefully the CCB will have rules for getting characters to disembark and propel themselves into combat quickly.
With snipers out there able to kill characters, I wonder if putting characters into personal transport vehicles will protect them from snipers.
All in all, I am getting the impression that vehicles will be a necessity in Newhammer.
Interesting point brought up in another thread. Since IC's can't join units, any transport options have to be personal transports. Could potentially add weight to the CCB becomes a personal transport?
Also, i know it's all speculation, but getting back to lychguard, since their role is bodyguards, could it be possible for them to be taken as an option by a HQ?
Sort of like a personal transport, but a personal retinue instead?
Is there any history of this happening in AoS?
but getting back to lychguard, since their role is bodyguards, could it be possible for them to be taken as an option by a HQ?
I don't think that could happen as no AoS unit is able to join HQs. However, I am just after reading an AoS Seraphon unit that has an ability/rule that might give us an insight into how Lynchguard work seeing as they are our HQ(s) bodyguards.
Selfless Protector: Each time this model is within 2" of a SLANN that suffers a wound or mortal wound, it can attempt to intervene. If it does so, roll a dice. If the result is 2 or higher, the SLANN ignores that wound or mortal wound but this model suffers a mortal wound in its place.
I could see this being a rule for the Lynchguard.
Also since Mortal Wounds are now a thing in 40k and they technically cant be saved even by invuls. Im starting to think that RP in 8th edition is going to allow us to have 4/5+ saves against Mortal Wounds.
The space dwarves in AoS have transports. They don't care about units, only about models.
Fully expect to be able to put an IC's and a unit inside the same transport as long as the model and keywords match.
I'm expecting the CCB to be baller in the new edition.
They updated the article, Twin Linked is just flat double the number of shots as a regular version, will be shown in the Profile. So a Tesla Destructor is Assault 1, a Twin Linked Tesla Destructor will be Assault 2.
Damn.
If Tesla keeps it's current ruling, that's 8 S7 shots from Annihilation Barges and Scythes... which can get absolutely ridiculous when a few of those come up sixes.
With Reecius helping them play test the new version, and him being a veteran 'Cron player, I have some hope that both vehicles (if not ALL our vehicles) might not be utter garbage.
Regardless, this means Tomb Blades are still definitely MVP.
I like the simplification... and they eliminated a source of rerolls. That is going to save a heck of a lot of time.
Now I just wish that Necrons had combi-weapons of some kind.
I'm liking how the main types of armies (MSU, Deathstar, and Blob) are each getting brought in-line. Very excited... very excited.
If they went the 5th Ed codex way and did something like make it permanently reduce armor save by one after dealing a wound, they would be pretty boss for anti-vehicle/MC duty again.
skoffs wrote: If they went the 5th Ed codex way and did something like make it permanently reduce armor save by one after dealing a wound, they would be pretty boss for anti-vehicle/MC duty again.
Probably not. Armor saves are too important now. Vehicles etc. rely on them. Nothing penetrates armor saves now, they're almost equal to invulnerables. If scarabs ate armor, they'd be pretty strong.
I imagine that we will have a viable Silver Tide (GW kept pushing that with detachments with lots of troops). I also imagine our vehicles will be good, probably with ways to recover wounds. They may be our only real way to move up the board as I see our infantry being really really slow. As mentioned above, Tombblades and Destroyers will be solid choices still. I expect Wraiths to see a lot of changes; I don't thing GW was happy that they were basically the ultimate Tarpit unit... they will want them to be our best assault unit.
GW seems to understand that 7th went off the rails with rerolls, so I don't think that we will get the army-wide Rend we got in ShadowWar Armeghedon. Gauss meaning more AV would be good. I expect Tesla keeping the exploding 6 mechanic in exchange for lower AV.
skoffs wrote: If they went the 5th Ed codex way and did something like make it permanently reduce armor save by one after dealing a wound, they would be pretty boss for anti-vehicle/MC duty again.
The theme of this edition is eliminating most of the book keeping, so I don't expect to see anything like that again. It was too powerful anyway.
Just started playing the game, with Necrons! Holding on a Praetorians box because I can't decide which models are cooler. Really excited with 8th too, even though I don't want to play seriously untim they release the new rules...
Hope I learn a lot in this thread
Anpu-adom wrote: I imagine that we will have a viable Silver Tide (GW kept pushing that with detachments with lots of troops). I also imagine our vehicles will be good, probably with ways to recover wounds. They may be our only real way to move up the board as I see our infantry being really really slow. As mentioned above, Tombblades and Destroyers will be solid choices still. I expect Wraiths to see a lot of changes; I don't thing GW was happy that they were basically the ultimate Tarpit unit... they will want them to be our best assault unit.
GW seems to understand that 7th went off the rails with rerolls, so I don't think that we will get the army-wide Rend we got in ShadowWar Armeghedon. Gauss meaning more AV would be good. I expect Tesla keeping the exploding 6 mechanic in exchange for lower AV.
Have an odd feeling that Tesla is going to be a D3 shots and Gauss dealing D3 wounds. Nothing to back it up, just a feeling.
What's the bet that Imotekh, the "Hyperlogical Strategist", is gonna come with something good, in this regard?
No love for Nemesor Zahndrekh and his 'Adaptive Tactics'?
Oh, he'll do something cool, too, but it would REALLY be nice to have the "greatest strategist in the galaxy" do something useful and worth taking for once.
Zandrekh has been good to take in maelstrom games. He's a good tank for his price point, and the ability to pick command traits is quite handy, gives a different tactical aspect to the game disconnected from the models on the board.
Maybe its the limited wargear options our HQ's have. The warscythe is miles ahead of the staff of light, and one would imagine a Warlord of his capabilities would prefer the scythe... but I could be wrong.
I think having more wargear spread out over our HQ's would give them more flavour. For the most part, one of two options gets boring very quick and we rely on special rules to give them flavour.
Also, Zandrekh's model is one of the best Necron sculpts IMO.
But in terms of usefulness, I cant think of a HQ we have that is more versatile, and points efficient (besides a naked Lord that just needs to fill a HQ slot).
What's the bet that Imotekh, the "Hyperlogical Strategist", is gonna come with something good, in this regard?
No love for Nemesor Zahndrekh and his 'Adaptive Tactics'?
But I can envisage both getting the extra command point in 8th, or they will have unique and powerful stratagems. Either fits them thematically very well.
Anpu-adom wrote: Interesting that true scale marines can't be taken in squads of 10...
This is just one unit of nu-marines, other squads might be taken in larger groups, but by the sounds of it theyre pretty elite units (expensive points wise).
Have we talked about Quantam Shielding in 8th? I can't remember so.
How will it work now/will it be removed?
Will it reduce -Sv modifiers, or could it reduce damage by D3?
Ill use a Doomsday Ark as an example (as I really want it to be good!).
I could see the D Ark having 15 wounds. With 3 of them going towards Quantium Shileding and the other 12 being the D ark HP. So for the 1st 3 wounds one of the above modifiers I stated would be in affect but once the Shielding is disabled it would lose its modifier and will be hit as normal.
I also think what CthululsSpy said could be a way for QS to work in 8th edit.
QS is a part of most of our vehicles so I am hoping it will give our vehicles a "boost" that will distinquish our vechiles from our opponents.
Anyone else thinking about QS on the Night and Doom Scythes? It would be cool if they could.
-Less than half of your units can go into reserves, so no more facing null deploy (not a huge deal for us but a thing to note)
-Doesn't look like rolling for reserves, so no Deathmarks, Scythes, and Monoliths just staying off the table for no reason.
-You can charge out of Reserve unless otherwise noted. Potentially huuuge for Flayed Ones if they still get a version of Infiltrate/Deep Strike/Outflank
-Tyranid units have <Hive Fleet> tag. Looks like <Dynasty> is all but confirmed!
So since deep strike is now based on distance and you can charge out of it, I'm thinking big units of Warriors and Immortals to bubble wrap important things and zone control will be very important.
I'm assuming we'll see a similar rule for Monolith as the Trygon has right now. Goes in Reserve with another unit. Could be a huge boon for bringing in a big blob of Lychguard to midfield on the turn of your choice.
Depending on Night Scythe rules, does this mean you can potentially fly on a unit of Warscythe Lychguard or HQs and charge them in early on?
Rolling is likely gone. I'm guessing that's a sidebar so that if it's physically impossible to bring something in, it dies, or to prevent people from just waiting til the last turn and drawing the game out.
The thing that has me concerned is,
With HQ no longer able to join units, we can no longer rely on the Veil Of Darkness/Obyron to teleport our guys across the table.
skoffs wrote: The thing that has me concerned is,
With HQ no longer able to join units, we can no longer rely on the Veil Of Darkness/Obyron to teleport our guys across the table.
That's easily fixable if they just change the wording on those items to say the character and one unit within 6 inches.
skoffs wrote: The thing that has me concerned is,
With HQ no longer able to join units, we can no longer rely on the Veil Of Darkness/Obyron to teleport our guys across the table.
Its still possible. There's nothing to stop them from making it so that you just select a unit in a certain radius to teleport instant.
Not being able to join squads doesn't really change anything for ICs, honestly. You still can't target one if its hiding behind a squad. Functionally that's no different than joining.
There's a Stormcast unit in AoS that removes himself and another nearby friendly unit from the table and places them elsewhere. I assume it'll be similar.
It's so weird seeing it it have strength and attack values. I'm just imagining it spinning around 3 times really quickly hoping to knock attackers about.
I'm betting we'll see it at a 3+ or even 2+ early on with Quantum Shielding. Surprised to see it not use the deterioration chart we saw earlier, but I guess out of all the vehicles the Barges are considered the "smallest" ones compared to Arks and Monoliths.
T6 isn't that inspiring but the baseline 12" move is nice. Reserving final judgement until we see the full Dataslate.
MoonlightSonata wrote: It's so weird seeing it it have strength and attack values. I'm just imagining it spinning around 3 times really quickly hoping to knock attackers about.
Clearly, the pilots will sissy slap anyone who gets too close, hence the S5 value and 3 attacks.
Finally, a justification for the barge's illogical design!
Requizen wrote: I'm betting we'll see it at a 3+ or even 2+ early on with Quantum Shielding. Surprised to see it not use the deterioration chart we saw earlier, but I guess out of all the vehicles the Barges are considered the "smallest" ones compared to Arks and Monoliths.
Well, it is only the stats. They probably haven't shown the damage chart yet.
Mentions the -1 to bs when firing heavy weapons after moving too.
I have a feeling that there is a lot more to the Annihilation Barge than we've seen. There could still be a damage chart, but it only affects the weapons.
Anyone notice the power points? 7. That means it is seen as slightly less powerful than a 5 man squad of Rubric marines (at PP 8).
Interesting.
Anpu-adom wrote: Mentions the -1 to bs when firing heavy weapons after moving too.
I have a feeling that there is a lot more to the Annihilation Barge than we've seen. There could still be a damage chart, but it only affects the weapons.
Anyone notice the power points? 7. That means it is seen as slightly less powerful than a 5 man squad of Rubric marines (at PP 8).
Interesting.
Eh, makes sense.
Rubric marines have better armor, psy and 2W each, I think. So 10W as opposed to 8.
Keep in mind though that power levels are bs, so its more a rough estimate than a clear indicator of power.
We still having seen the new destructor's statline and the barge's special rules.
Requizen wrote: I'm betting we'll see it at a 3+ or even 2+ early on with Quantum Shielding. Surprised to see it not use the deterioration chart we saw earlier, but I guess out of all the vehicles the Barges are considered the "smallest" ones compared to Arks and Monoliths.
Well, it is only the stats. They probably haven't shown the damage chart yet.
I am going to guess that anything with less than 10 or 12 wounds does not have a damage chart. There's no asterisks in the stat line.
Requizen wrote: I'm betting we'll see it at a 3+ or even 2+ early on with Quantum Shielding. Surprised to see it not use the deterioration chart we saw earlier, but I guess out of all the vehicles the Barges are considered the "smallest" ones compared to Arks and Monoliths.
Well, it is only the stats. They probably haven't shown the damage chart yet.
No damage chart on this one, it would be obvious on the statline:
That doesn't mean it can't have rules that activate on a certain number of wounds, though.
Requizen wrote: I'm betting we'll see it at a 3+ or even 2+ early on with Quantum Shielding. Surprised to see it not use the deterioration chart we saw earlier, but I guess out of all the vehicles the Barges are considered the "smallest" ones compared to Arks and Monoliths.
Well, it is only the stats. They probably haven't shown the damage chart yet.
No damage chart on this one, it would be obvious on the statline:
That doesn't mean it can't have rules that activate on a certain number of wounds, though.
Or they just cropped out the damage table. Its not as if its permanently attached. You can remove it with photoshop / paint.
Requizen wrote: I'm betting we'll see it at a 3+ or even 2+ early on with Quantum Shielding. Surprised to see it not use the deterioration chart we saw earlier, but I guess out of all the vehicles the Barges are considered the "smallest" ones compared to Arks and Monoliths.
Well, it is only the stats. They probably haven't shown the damage chart yet.
I am going to guess that anything with less than 10 or 12 wounds does not have a damage chart. There's no asterisks in the stat line.
True. That possibility had not occurred to me.
Though they did say different vehicles had different tables, so maybe the annibarge table doesn't affect its base stats.
