I wonder how this effects the Catacomb Command Barge. 12" movement a turn is pretty good, might still mean we have speed in a Cron melee army. Would be buffable to a 2+ armour save, invuln save (?) quantam shielding (maybe) and reanimation, carrying a warscythe buffing surrounding units like wraiths and praetorians...
Feels like a buff to the Good Barge.
Ghost and doomsday arks... not so much, unless quantam shielding buffs the T value pretty high or something along those lines.
12" move is there at least, would be nice with a couple of more wounds, 8W @4+ isn't too different from 4HP, but las guns will wound this thing on 6+, bolters and above on 5+. Would need to see more to know how badly off it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not knowing anything about quantum shielding or living metal, at least the plain AV11 values of 7th aren't that different from this.
S6 wounds on 4+ (glances on 5 in 7th)
S7 wounds on 3+ (glances on 4 in 7th)
S8-S11 all wound on 3+ , which seems to be an improvement for the anni barge in 8th compared to 7th.
Unless, both Living Metal and Quantum shielding offer both better saves, bigger toughness and more wounds, I don't see the Anni Barge being too valuable, even if cheap. From all the things we've seen so far, this looks to be the easiest to kill. T6, 8 W and 4+ save is pretty funny compared to AV13 we were used to. I mean, heck, compare it to a dreadnought. I don't mean to whine, but the sole tidbit that was released about Necrons is one of my favorite vehicles and that was released half (where's the special rules/entire page?) and underwhelming.
necr0n wrote: Unless, both Living Metal and Quantum shielding offer both better saves, bigger toughness and more wounds, I don't see the Anni Barge being too valuable, even if cheap. From all the things we've seen so far, this looks to be the easiest to kill. T6, 8 W and 4+ save is pretty funny compared to AV13 we were used to. I mean, heck, compare it to a dreadnought. I don't mean to whine, but the sole tidbit that was released about Necrons is one of my favorite vehicles and that was released half (where's the special rules/entire page?) and underwhelming.
You mean AV11.
AV13 came from quantum shielding, which was not represented in the statline. Without it the barge was also pretty fragile. We will have to see what QS and living metal does before writing it off.
skoffs wrote: Perhaps Quantum Shielding gives a +2 to Toughness instead of AV this edition?
(though I don't know how much better that will be)
Lasguns would still kill it just as easily, if that is a concern. Perhaps reroll failed saves? Although I have the impression they are cutting down on the rerolls.
skoffs wrote: Perhaps Quantum Shielding gives a +2 to Toughness instead of AV this edition?
(though I don't know how much better that will be)
Lasguns would still kill it just as easily, if that is a concern. Perhaps reroll failed saves? Although I have the impression they are cutting down on the rerolls.
If you are using lasguns to kill vehicles, then you are doing it wrong.
There are more optimal targets available.
A little disappointed they're still only showing imperial stuff, especially considering they just gave us a tease by showing some Annihilation Barge info, but at least we know what expect, now? (Assuming Hyperphase Swords to be the equivalent of a power sword)
What does everyone think our faction spotlight will include?
Given they are pretty vague for the most part I don't expect much, but I say they will address either gauss or RP, whichever one is the least changed from 7th, so they don't actually give away many spoilers.
I can also envisage them talking about C'tan, its a topic that they can tell us about without giving away too much of how our core gameplay will play.
Realistically we only have a few major questions;
How does Gauss work
How does RP work
How does everliving & quantam shielding work
How do C'tan work
Everything else is pretty straightfoward at this point or am I missing something?
The thing I anticipate the most out of the new edition and Newcrons in general is the new Monolith. I want to see it as I envision it. It's been the thing that made me start Necrons (you cannot imagine how cool I thought it was compared to puny rhinos), a thing I've stuck with for entire editions, that I've used many, that I love the model and lore behind. It's my favorite necron unit and the last editions have been too harsh on it. Our iconic vehicle, our ceterpiece, our entire culture in one model is not represented rightfully whatsoever by the rules.
I definetely expect and hope for something like a mobile fortress, an unkillable, annoyingly slow, terrain-vehicle with many tactical possibilities (like buffing surrounding units, teleporting units, etc.) and some decent but not too overwhelming guns to support it.
Give us our Monoliths back!
Obviously, I still want to see "We'll be back.." come back, gauss do something cool, Tesla become more staple to Necron armies (almost like Gauss is) and Living Metal and Quantum Shielding make our vehicles as survivable as they were in 5th edition and prior to that. I'm a necron, I don't like seeing T6 8W 4+ on anything close to my vehicles, but that's just ranting without seeing special rules, so I'll let it go.
necr0n wrote: The thing I anticipate the most out of the new edition and Newcrons in general is the new Monolith. I want to see it as I envision it. It's been the thing that made me start Necrons (you cannot imagine how cool I thought it was compared to puny rhinos), a thing I've stuck with for entire editions, that I've used many, that I love the model and lore behind. It's my favorite necron unit and the last editions have been too harsh on it. Our iconic vehicle, our ceterpiece, our entire culture in one model is not represented rightfully whatsoever by the rules.
I definetely expect and hope for something like a mobile fortress, an unkillable, annoyingly slow, terrain-vehicle with many tactical possibilities (like buffing surrounding units, teleporting units, etc.) and some decent but not too overwhelming guns to support it.
Give us our Monoliths back!
Obviously, I still want to see "We'll be back.." come back, gauss do something cool, Tesla become more staple to Necron armies (almost like Gauss is) and Living Metal and Quantum Shielding make our vehicles as survivable as they were in 5th edition and prior to that. I'm a necron, I don't like seeing T6 8W 4+ on anything close to my vehicles, but that's just ranting without seeing special rules, so I'll let it go.
This. 1000 times this! I adore the monolith, it's also the reason I started necrons! It makes me happy that they will never be oneshot again!
Do you think now that heavy weapons only have a -1 to hit when shooting and combi weapons also get this when shooting both profiles that we will now be allowed to shoot the whip and gauss all with just a -1 to hit instead of snap shooting? I hope so.
I can also see CCB, wraiths and praetorians being a very fast frontline. Getting to swing first with good positioning will make them hit very hard I can imagine.
Also, now that we can charge from deepstrike, and not have to worry about scatter, and the fact that command points can make rerolls possible, how effective will flayed ones be this season? An 8" charge on 2 dice is a 50/50 shot (roughly) coupled with a command point reroll means a squad of 20 flayed ones getting a semi reliable 1st turn charge off.
I'm also excited to see how the CCB works in the new edition. I suspect that they will go away from having different armor saves on the rider and on the vehicle, if nothing else for the sake of simplicity.
Anpu-adom wrote: I'm also excited to see how the CCB works in the new edition. I suspect that they will go away from having different armor saves on the rider and on the vehicle, if nothing else for the sake of simplicity.
It didn't slow the game down much, but now they have the same style profiles, losing advantages for having high AV. So there might be twin profiles, or one ultra durable unit, hard to say how it will work.
I just want them to allow the Overlord to disembark again.
Oh, and give it the fly-over attack again.
That was super cool and thematic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, from today's transport post:
"Loads of you have been asking on our Warhammer 40,000 facebook page for a few more details on this, so we’ll see what we can do to answer your questions."
See? Get enough people asking the same questions on their FB page and they'll be more likely to respond to it in some manner.
skoffs wrote: I just want them to allow the Overlord to disembark again.
Oh, and give it the fly-over attack again.
That was super cool and thematic.
If they can disembark (I feel they should, it makes literally no sense they die when their transport explodes) you use the CCB profile until its dead, then you revert to the O/Lords profile after its gone?
Seeing as how vehicles have their own attack stats now, I don't see why they wouldn't just make it a chariot that allows they guy inside to make his own attacks in addition to the vehicle's.
If he dies, CCB carries on by itself. If it dies, he rolls to see if he's taken out (on a 1) then continues on foot, just like any other embarked model would do.
There are good number of models in AoS that are the same as the CCB, i.e. Hero riding on a mount, they share a profile, but as the wounds are lowered the "ride" gets weaker.
Draco765 wrote: There are good number of models in AoS that are the same as the CCB, i.e. Hero riding on a mount, they share a profile, but as the wounds are lowered the "ride" gets weaker.
This will be the same pattern the CCB will follow.
So the CCB will have a seperate profile than then anni barge then. Its going to be supremely tough by any measure however, benefitting from both RP and quantam shielding! Hopefully it stays <10W, otherwise its low T will make it easy to kill from range.
Well, that's how it's always been, no?
I mean, I remember Gauss only affecting vehicles in 3rd ed.
Anyway, cron faction focus might be on saturday.
The orks are on thursday, and it seems they are doing a faction focus every 2 days. Necrons are the only major faction they haven't covered yet, I think.
Well, that's how it's always been, no?
I mean, I remember Gauss only affecting vehicles in 3rd ed.
Anyway, cron faction focus might be on saturday.
The orks are on thursday, and it seems they are doing a faction focus every 2 days. Necrons are the only major faction they haven't covered yet, I think.
In 3rd it still did the wounding thing it does now. I know in the 5th edition one it only had the vehicle clause I think.
Well, that's how it's always been, no?
I mean, I remember Gauss only affecting vehicles in 3rd ed.
Anyway, cron faction focus might be on saturday.
The orks are on thursday, and it seems they are doing a faction focus every 2 days. Necrons are the only major faction they haven't covered yet, I think.
In 3rd it still did the wounding thing it does now. I know in the 5th edition one it only had the vehicle clause I think.
Oh yeah, that does sound about right. I must have been thinking of Disruption fields, which I'm sure were just vehicle only.
Just had a chat about 8th and Necrons to my local GW manager and, whilst he couldn't tell me much he did say the in 8th, Necrons are "incredibly hard to kill", and that they are "the most resilient army in the game".
I did ask how tough they are compared to Death Guard, but he only said that no one really played Death Guard when he had a go so it was hard to compare.
Anyways, very cryptic (or should that be Cryptek?) but thought it'd be interesting to share.
Let's be honest, it's probably just going to be an extra -1 to rend or +1 damage vs things with the vehicle keyword or something else largely meaningless. In any case, it's pretty disappointing that it only affects vehicles, as that's not how it works in the fluff at all. It also makes me think that footslogging warriors are going to be flat out bad in an edition where assault seems unavoidable, which is also quite saddening - nobody, even in 8th edition, is going to be scared of a bunch of "bolter" shooting.
On the grounds that 90% of rules seem to be translating fairly directly, I'm betting that the same sort of "disgusting resilience" thing is the replacement for reanimation protocols (so ignore damage on 5+). I'm also quite worried about how we're going to deal with high armour saves, as Necron weapons tend to have pretty poor AP, especially a notable lack of AP2 weapons. Unless heavy gauss cannons are now super-lascannons and much harder to kill, it's going to be a nightmare dealing with things like Imperial Knights and the like now that they're so much more resilient to small arms - worse than facing a Wraithknight now even. I wish they'd have released the faction focus sooner, because there's so many questions around how our rules will translate where most other factions seem to translate very obviously.
Let's be honest, it's probably just going to be an extra -1 to rend or +1 damage vs things with the vehicle keyword or something else largely meaningless. In any case, it's pretty disappointing that it only affects vehicles, as that's not how it works in the fluff at all. It also makes me think that footslogging warriors are going to be flat out bad in an edition where assault seems unavoidable, which is also quite saddening - nobody, even in 8th edition, is going to be scared of a bunch of "bolter" shooting.
On the grounds that 90% of rules seem to be translating fairly directly, I'm betting that the same sort of "disgusting resilience" thing is the replacement for reanimation protocols (so ignore damage on 5+). I'm also quite worried about how we're going to deal with high armour saves, as Necron weapons tend to have pretty poor AP, especially a notable lack of AP2 weapons. Unless heavy gauss cannons are now super-lascannons and much harder to kill, it's going to be a nightmare dealing with things like Imperial Knights and the like now that they're so much more resilient to small arms - worse than facing a Wraithknight now even. I wish they'd have released the faction focus sooner, because there's so many questions around how our rules will translate where most other factions seem to translate very obviously.
We do have AP2 weaponry, quite a bit infact. Just cant attach it to infantry like other armies, it has been bolted to sub par vehicles in 7th. One of the main problems vehicles had in 7th was getting oneshot. This isn't going to happen at all anymore (potentially with whatever D is changed to, but have to wait and see for that).
Doomsday ark was long range, large balst, S10 AP1. Doom scythe was the same, w/lance, Nightshroud bomber was the same, triarch stalker had long range melta/HGC, monolith had large blast ap3, anni barge has ap3, FW pylons had S10 AP1/melta/gauss. Our big guns were bad because they were fragile, but they put out serious hurt with the majority being S10 AP1 large blasts/beams. We also had C'tan shards/Tesseract vault, which will hopefully be changed, which had a plethora of good damaging abilities.
Aaaaand most of these would be oneshot by a smart general.
Now this cant happen, we have a multitude of tools to do long range high quality damage. They have gotten a buff overall. We have lots of high str low ap (or now high str, high rend, high damage) weaponry that can damage everyone, from range. Coupled with the ability to bubble wrap the important ones (DA/pylons/C'tan) with the most resilient troops in the game?
We good.
Also, our main ap2 weaponry in 7th was...... Warscythes. Lychguard were slow, will still be in 8th, but imagine if GA weren't dedicated transports anymore. A squad of 10 scytheguard flying up the field, disembarking, having the GA tank the overwatch then charging into combat and SWINGING FIRST? Or however Obryn's GWM works (if it survives) blinking them up. Either way, they get the charge off, anything 10 of them charge is hard dead.
We double good.
Granted, scytheguard are slow, but Rod praets? AP2 shooting and melee on a fast chassis.
Fast, resilient, being flanked by a CCB with AP2, 2+/4++/4+++, quantam shielding, res orb, warscythe buffing them and wraiths?
Juicy combo. Very quick, easy to position for the charge (seriously, our CC has been super buffed if we can charge first. I2 is gone forever!)
Szerath has a ap2 lance, lots of HQ's have access to taychon arrows.
Lets not even talk about Heavy Destroyers
So yea, we dont have access to melta or grav, or the majority of the other weapons.
But we do have lots and lots of high strength, low ap weaponry. Cron vehicles are back baby!
A lot of pessimism here all the sudden.
Warriors are not going to be bad. GW has been pushing the silver tide for so long. Just don't expect to get much out of minimum squads... I expect them to be 2-3 points cheaper than a space marine and for us to have to take a lot of them.
Gauss isn't our only way to kill things... we have the best melee weapon in the game (Warscythe) and now it isn't being hindered by an Initiative of 2. Keep a character or 2 within pilein range and that character will DESTROY the assaulting units. Oh, and not die.
If Destroyers have Fly (very likely), they will be impossible to tie up, and given our resilience, difficult to cut down before they can shoot back.
Vehicles no longer being able to be insta-gibbed (or at least much harder to make happen, requiring multiple multi-damage shots) makes them viable again, and with that, the Doomsday Ark and Monolith may fix our issue of lacking good AP/Strength damage output.
I'm actually expecting Gauss to be a MW on 6s against Vehicles. But we'll see.
And expect the DLord and CCB with Warscythes to become everybody's least favorite units in the game. Calling it now.
Looks like they've introduced "bidding for initiative" (as they say in X-Wing) as a mechanic.
Basically, there may now be a good reason to take less points than your opponent (so you can be the "underdog").
Also, alternating units are set up. Player A places a unit, then player B places, and so on until done.
Half the game is going to be won in deployment now, by the looks of it. If JSJ is still around it is going to be a premium. Heavy Destroyers, don't fail me now!
Not sure if Underdog will be in Matched Play (that's an Open Play mission they showed), but it would be interesting if they were.
One of the nice things about alternating drops is that you can play with it a bit, at least if they keep it similar to AoS. For instance, the new Dwarves have transports, and anything embarked in the transport counts as one drop. So it might be worth bringing lots of Arks and Scythes to load up, keeping your unit placements low while still bringing lots of units.
I'm not worried that we haven't gotten our faction article yet. It seems that the closer we get, the more details they can share (obviously).
Orks got great news today... very much layered leadership and save buffs.
Who else is left?
(Faction Focus)
Will they have enough time to cover everyone?
Also, we may have a better idea of what to expect the Veil does, now (from the Ork focus article)-
the Ork Weirdboy is a fantastic choice in the new edition, and one of his powers, Da Jump, is particularly awesome. It allows an Ork Infantry unit within 6″ of the Weirdboy to be teleported to any point more than 9″ away from enemy units on the battlefield (and remember, no more scattering!). This makes for quite the nasty surprise when a mob of 30 Ork Boyz appears behind enemy lines!
We have plenty of time. Off the top of my head, we have:
Necrons, Agents of the Imperium, Talons of the Emperor, Ynnari, Harlequins, Space Marines, DA, BA, SW, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Legion of the Damned, Thousand Sons, Chaos Knights.
If each of those gets a Faction Focus, the last one will be on the 22nd. I'm sure some of the Space Marine ones will be folded in, and we might not see Chaos Knights or 1k Sons.
I think they said DA/BA/SW will be rolled into one, or maybe just a couple of them. I don't think Legion of the Damned and Deathwatch get their own since they're not listed? You also missed GSC.
So, we'll see. It's nice to get any info at all honestly. My FLGS is getting the books on June 4th (or maybe earlier), so I'll be reading through Necron stuff and reporting back here as I can.
Necrons, Agents of the Imperium, Talons of the Emperor, Ynnari, Harlequins, Space Marines, DA, BA, SW, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Legion of the Damned, Thousand Sons, Chaos Knights.
If each of those gets a Faction Focus, the last one will be on the 22nd. I'm sure some of the Space Marine ones will be folded in, and we might not see Chaos Knights or 1k Sons.
Also Humonculous covens and genestealer cults.
They hinted they will look at covens at some point.
You gotta space out the major factions to get a good hype sine wave. Frontload them all and interest will die off. We're in a tie for last place with Space Marines, so at least we know they're not playing favorites!
I do kinda think Necrons are pushed to the end to mess with that one dude in the Facebook comments who keeps asking about them.
Tokhuah wrote: I just want to know if I should finish painting the six Destroyers sitting on my workbench...
They take surprisingly little time to do for such big models. youll be able to knock em out in an afternoon. I did a whole cult (w/ 3 HD) and the D/lord in a day.
Just had a though. Our flyers have always been some of the best of the bunch (asides eldar stuff). We haven't seen any info for flyers yet. But with all vehicles getting much stronger, and flyers probably having a large -to hit modifier. Couple this with the fact ours are a good source of High Str, Low ap in 7th, and with the need for big guns so much more prevalent in 8th, I have a feeling they will be jumping up a few tiers in effectiveness for us.
Tokhuah wrote: I just want to know if I should finish painting the six Destroyers sitting on my workbench...
They take surprisingly little time to do for such big models. youll be able to knock em out in an afternoon. I did a whole cult (w/ 3 HD) and the D/lord in a day.
Just had a though. Our flyers have always been some of the best of the bunch (asides eldar stuff). We haven't seen any info for flyers yet. But with all vehicles getting much stronger, and flyers probably having a large -to hit modifier. Couple this with the fact ours are a good source of High Str, Low ap in 7th, and with the need for big guns so much more prevalent in 8th, I have a feeling they will be jumping up a few tiers in effectiveness for us.
Thoughts?
I expect Night Scythes to be comparatively worse than Ghost Arks, given how strong transports are in the current version. The only exception to this is if NSs keep their 24" move plus 6" teleport transport range, that will enable some interesting plays for otherwise slow Lychguard. Whether that's unnecessary maximum distance remains to be seen.
Your view for Doom Scythes and Nigtshroud Bombers is as good as anything else I've read. I would suggest that the change to blasts, which was itself a change from the old Line style Hit # system presents some difficulty in evaluating whether we should expect them to be anti-HP or anti-swarm weaponry.
FOC changes happening on the webstore. Not many for Necrons but worth noting:
-Triarch Stalker and Obelisk to Heavy Support
-Tesseract Vault to HQ -Nothing in Lord of War
-Ghost Ark only listed as Dedicated Transport and not FA -Night Scythe only listed in FA not Dedicated Transport (might move to Flyer once 8th is out)
-Heavy Destroyer upgrade kit gone? Unsure what that means for Heavy Ds.
Requizen wrote: FOC changes happening on the webstore. Not many for Necrons but worth noting:
-Triarch Stalker and Obelisk to Heavy Support
-Tesseract Vault to HQ -Nothing in Lord of War
-Ghost Ark only listed as Dedicated Transport and not FA -Night Scythe only listed in FA not Dedicated Transport (might move to Flyer once 8th is out)
-Heavy Destroyer upgrade kit gone? Unsure what that means for Heavy Ds.
Also worryingly - no Destroyer Lord....
but upon second inspection its still available to buy. they said all models will be able to be used.
Wonder if the T-Vault becomes good this season. very high wounds/T I would imagine, and hopefully a reworked c'tan power phase.
Necrons:
Reanimation protocols are made at the start of your movement phase. Roll a D6 for every slain model, on a 5+ it comes back. You can roll again in the following turns. You cannot roll if the whole unit is slain.
Living metal allows for automatically regaining lost wounds
Basic Gauss is 24" Rapid Fire Ap-2, Gauss Cannon is Ap-3 Dmg Discipline 10
Warriors cost unchanged form 7th.
Monolith M6" W20 S8 T8 Save3+, Gauss Flux Arc Heavy 3 S5 Ap-2, Whip Heavy 6 S8 Ap-2 DmgD6. When it gets charged, roll on a D6 and if 4+ (or worse, depending on wounds lost) charging unit gets D6 mortal wounds.
Necrons:
Reanimation protocols are made at the start of your movement phase. Roll a D6 for every slain model, on a 5+ it comes back. You can roll again in the following turns. You cannot roll if the whole unit is slain.
Living metal allows for automatically regaining lost wounds
Basic Gauss is 24" Rapid Fire Ap-2, Gauss Cannon is Ap-3 Dmg Discipline 10
Warriors cost unchanged form 7th.
Monolith M6" W20 S8 T8 Save3+, Gauss Flux Arc Heavy 3 S5 Ap-2, Whip Heavy 6 S8 Ap-2 DmgD6. When it gets charged, roll on a D6 and if 4+ (or worse, depending on wounds lost) charging unit gets D6 mortal wounds.
Don't take it for granted, it's not confirmed.
Grav has been confirmed in the just posted Space Marine article, which lends credence to the rest of the leaks.
I think this sucks, fluffier or not. Positioning your units so as to maximize chance of not getting wiped is just another concern on our part. RP as it was gave us a chance to save that wound without worrying about getting wiped to get that roll
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also it seems a lousy extra ap number is all we get for gauss
It was also a boring rule that was little more than FNP +1 and offered no counterplay. I hated the 7th ed RP.
Looks like this time we actually have to use tactics instead of face tanking everything.
The fact that you can still roll on subsequent turns is pretty massive. They can't leave a unit of 2 Warriors because they might just jump back up to full strength in a turn or two.
torblind wrote: I think this sucks, fluffier or not. Positioning your units so as to maximize chance of not getting wiped is just another concern on our part. RP as it was gave us a chance to save that wound without worrying about getting wiped to get that roll
What kind of 'positioning'? No more templates or blast markers to worry about and casualties can be removed from anywhere in the unit even if out of range or line of sight in the Shooting phase. The only 'positioning' you have to worry about is being consolidated into after a close combat.
torblind wrote: I think this sucks, fluffier or not. Positioning your units so as to maximize chance of not getting wiped is just another concern on our part. RP as it was gave us a chance to save that wound without worrying about getting wiped to get that roll
What kind of 'positioning'? No more templates or blast markers to worry about and casualties can be removed from anywhere in the unit even if out of range or line of sight in the Shooting phase. The only 'positioning' you have to worry about is being consolidated into after a close combat.
Well facing a shooting or cc threat on one angle/flank I'd now have to consider what units to face that threat with, and not just simply shift the closest units up to face it as I can now. I'd now have to worry about not squandering that RP potential, which means I have to take more care the turn before that so I don't get out maneuvered in following turns.
It would stand to reason that AP would increase incrementally with every tier of gun, just like it is now.
So:
Flayer = AP-1 (previously AP5)
Blaster = AP-2 (previously AP4)
Cannon = AP-3 (previously AP3)
Heavy Cannon = AP-4 (previously AP2)
torblind wrote: Also it seems a lousy extra ap number is all we get for gauss
You must be really new if you really think those handful of lines is ALL the information that's going to be in the book.
Requizen wrote: The fact that you can still roll on subsequent turns is pretty massive. They can't leave a unit of 2 Warriors because they might just jump back up to full strength in a turn or two.
This is indeed powerful, and awesome in turns of fluffyness.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: It would stand to reason that AP would increase incrementally with every tier of gun, just like it is now.
So:
Flayer = AP-1 (previously AP5)
Blaster = AP-2 (previously AP4)
Cannon = AP-3 (previously AP3)
Heavy Cannon = AP-4 (previously AP2)
torblind wrote: Also it seems a lousy extra ap number is all we get for gauss
You must be really new if you really think those handful of lines is ALL the information that's going to be in the book.
I may be new, but the leaker surely strived to write down the most interesting bits on each faction, and having laid eyes upon 3 gauss weapons he did not seem to come across anything more relevant about those than plain weapon stats.
That being said I don't intend to worry an ounce more about things soon-to-be revealed anyway.
I am the newest here, probably, and I love the new RP, if they are not fake. I mean, when I think of Necrons and "Reanimation Protocols" it feels better to reanimate bodies that avoid wounds.
torblind wrote: I think this sucks, fluffier or not. Positioning your units so as to maximize chance of not getting wiped is just another concern on our part. RP as it was gave us a chance to save that wound without worrying about getting wiped to get that roll
What kind of 'positioning'? No more templates or blast markers to worry about and casualties can be removed from anywhere in the unit even if out of range or line of sight in the Shooting phase. The only 'positioning' you have to worry about is being consolidated into after a close combat.
Well facing a shooting or cc threat on one angle/flank I'd now have to consider what units to face that threat with, and not just simply shift the closest units up to face it as I can now. I'd now have to worry about not squandering that RP potential, which means I have to take more care the turn before that so I don't get out maneuvered in following turns.
So now you have to worry about the same things every other player who doesn't play Necrons does
They keep throwing info on Reddit, again, not confirmed...
Monolith can deep strike in not within 12" of enemy unit. It can move and fire all heavy weapons with no penalties. Reserves can come in from eternity gate.
Overlord, Lords and Dlords all have Living Metal granting them auto healing. Dlords come equip with Phylactery which heals D3 instead of 1.
Res Orbs can be used to roll RP again immediately after an RP roll.
Crypteks give 5++ and also +1 to RP.
Lords have "My Will Be Done" (srsly it's that) that gives plus 1 to advance, charge and hit.
Lychguard 2W. 4++ with shield. Can 2+ LoS! Within 3" for necron characters.
Spyders can respawn for EVERY swarm within 6" but cannot bring it above starting size.
Scarabs wound everything on 5+ the worse case scenario.
Wraith whip coils enable them to attack even if they are removed as casualties beforehand. After they attack they then die.
Wraiths still have 3++
Tesla rules remain the same.
Quantum Shielding works by rolling a dice after multi wounds. If you roll LESS than the wounds causes you ignore all those wounds.
So now you have to worry about the same things every other player who doesn't play Necrons does
I know, and it sucks!
But also that is what fits a play style centered around resilient units and strong but shortranged guns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Denegaar wrote: They keep throwing info on Reddit, again, not confirmed...
Monolith can deep strike in not within 12" of enemy unit. It can move and fire all heavy weapons with no penalties. Reserves can come in from eternity gate.
Overlord, Lords and Dlords all have Living Metal granting them auto healing. Dlords come equip with Phylactery which heals D3 instead of 1.
Res Orbs can be used to roll RP again immediately after an RP roll.
Crypteks give 5++ and also +1 to RP.
Lords have "My Will Be Done" (srsly it's that) that gives plus 1 to advance, charge and hit.
Lychguard 2W. 4++ with shield. Can 2+ LoS! Within 3" for necron characters.
Spyders can respawn for EVERY swarm within 6" but cannot bring it above starting size.
Scarabs wound everything on 5+ the worse case scenario.
Wraith whip coils enable them to attack even if they are removed as casualties beforehand. After they attack they then die.
Wraiths still have 3++
Tesla rules remain the same.
Quantum Shielding works by rolling a dice after multi wounds. If you roll LESS than the wounds causes you ignore all those wounds.
Sounds like a fun army to play! Hopefully there will be Tesla also on overwatch etc
Everything seems to be really nice, so far. From the rumors at least. I'll wait to see it in person, but I really like "We'll be back.." over "Ressurection Protocols" and I REALLY dig it can be used every round.
Quantum shielding looks way too random. It works more reliably against low-damage weapons and doesnt do too much versus high damage weapons, which doesn't make too much sense, since high damage weapons will be targetting whatever has Quantum shielding (vehicles). Essentially, it's good if bolters hit your ghost ark, but not on las canons. And, even then it's quite random. I don't really like it.
I really like the Living Metal as well. The high wounds mechanic for vehicles has allowed this rule to become what it was always meant to be.
necr0n wrote: Everything seems to be really nice, so far. From the rumors at least. I'll wait to see it in person, but I really like "We'll be back.." over "Ressurection Protocols" and I REALLY dig it can be used every round.
Quantum shielding looks way too random. It works more reliably against low-damage weapons and doesnt do too much versus high damage weapons, which doesn't make too much sense, since high damage weapons will be targetting whatever has Quantum shielding (vehicles). Essentially, it's good if bolters hit your ghost ark, but not on las canons. And, even then it's quite random. I don't really like it.
I really like the Living Metal as well. The high wounds mechanic for vehicles has allowed this rule to become what it was always meant to be.
Can't wait for the actual Faction Focus :/
Doesn;t Quantum shielding do the opposite you are saying
Quantum Shielding works by rolling a dice after multi wounds. If you roll LESS than the wounds causes you ignore all those wounds
It does nothing against bolters but almost certainly ignores a IMperial Knight's blade doing 6 damage - unless you roll a 6? lascannon its good if it rolls high.... interesting mechanic
necr0n wrote: Everything seems to be really nice, so far. From the rumors at least. I'll wait to see it in person, but I really like "We'll be back.." over "Ressurection Protocols" and I REALLY dig it can be used every round.
Quantum shielding looks way too random. It works more reliably against low-damage weapons and doesnt do too much versus high damage weapons, which doesn't make too much sense, since high damage weapons will be targetting whatever has Quantum shielding (vehicles). Essentially, it's good if bolters hit your ghost ark, but not on las canons. And, even then it's quite random. I don't really like it.
I really like the Living Metal as well. The high wounds mechanic for vehicles has allowed this rule to become what it was always meant to be.
Can't wait for the actual Faction Focus :/
Doesn;t Quantum shielding do the opposite you are saying
Quantum Shielding works by rolling a dice after multi wounds. If you roll LESS than the wounds causes you ignore all those wounds
It does nothing against bolters but almost certianly ignores a Kinght's blade doing 6 damage - unless you roll a 6?
You are absolutely right.I read it wrong. Which gives it great value. At least if dones't deactivate, at some point. If you force all anti-infantry fire onto vehicles and make your opponent fire his high damage weapons on infantry with RP (WWB), cryptek saves and invulnerable saves, survivability will be greatly increased. That's pretty spicey.
Do you pick a power for the C'Tan or do they come with one standard? I hope they balance them well if there's going to be a smörgåsbord, so that you don't go with one option in 99% of cases, as with the canoptek harvest
Denegaar wrote: They keep throwing info on Reddit, again, not confirmed...
Monolith can deep strike in not within 12" of enemy unit. It can move and fire all heavy weapons with no penalties. Reserves can come in from eternity gate.
Overlord, Lords and Dlords all have Living Metal granting them auto healing. Dlords come equip with Phylactery which heals D3 instead of 1.
Res Orbs can be used to roll RP again immediately after an RP roll.
Crypteks give 5++ and also +1 to RP.
Lords have "My Will Be Done" (srsly it's that) that gives plus 1 to advance, charge and hit.
Lychguard 2W. 4++ with shield. Can 2+ LoS! Within 3" for necron characters.
Spyders can respawn for EVERY swarm within 6" but cannot bring it above starting size.
Scarabs wound everything on 5+ the worse case scenario.
Wraith whip coils enable them to attack even if they are removed as casualties beforehand. After they attack they then die.
Wraiths still have 3++
Tesla rules remain the same.
Lots of buffs to RP which does nothing if units die entirely; back to 5e where destroyers never get to roll to reanimate I guess. I like the flavour of it, but the reality of how that played out in 5th is that against a good player you very rarely got to roll RP on anything without everliving, which I'm assuming doesn't exist. Similarly, it's all well and good auto-regenerating wounds, but I can't imagine a good player ever shooting at any HQ without aiming to kill it in a single round. Looking at how deadly assaults are seeming to be, I might just resign myself to never making any RP rolls, skipping all the wargear buffing it and just running MSU instead. I'm assuming "My Will Be Done" is an assault thing, in which case it seems quite good for things like Lychguard. Cryptesk handing out 5++ seems crucial with the new AP system. Monoliths are beginning to sound exceptionally good but at a serious cost, so that's interesting. The C'tan stuff sounds very mediocre though - a 4++ has never been good and will continue to be poor in 8th unless there's something huge I'm, missing. Also, they randomly removed the Nightbringer's mini lascannon it's had in almost every version of the game - why?
All in all, looks interesting. Points will decide how good necrons are, but my hunch would be mid-high tier after the dust settles - we still have no psychic phase, can't dispell like other armies and the RP rules sound like they only function in a game of attrition which 40k will likely never be.
Quantum Shielding works by rolling a dice after multi wounds. If you roll LESS than the wounds causes you ignore all those wounds.
This kills the Annihilation barge. From the stats they showed us, they're now made of paper mache. It's slightly better VS Imperial Knights or lascannons, but otherwise will die to a stiff breeze. I guess it'll be strong though if the tesla destructor is S7 AP0 heavy 8? I dunno, with the decrease in relative power of S7, I can't see wanting to take something that fragile.
I'm not sure I believe the change to Quantum Shielding.
It sounds really counter intuitive; doesn't that mean that the better your opponent rolls, the more likely you can avoid damage? You'd think it would be the other way around.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'm not sure I believe the change to Quantum Shielding.
It sounds really counter intuitive; doesn't that mean that the better your opponent rolls, the more likely you can avoid damage? You'd think it would be the other way around.
Ya it does seem counter intuitive. But maybe it'll keep armies of just Knights off the tables, as an army of our vehicles would be unkillable for them(the good ol AV13 wall).
I guess it does sort of make sense from a lore perspective, as a defense system that scales with the threat would be pretty effective and matches the necron's obsession with surviving pretty well. Its comparable to shielding in Dune, as those are also designed to repel dangerous, high velocity attacks but are not that effective against weaker, low velocity attacks.
From a gameplay perspective though its kind of odd.
It goes against GW trying to put more power into dedicated anti-tank, as why would you risk having all of your damage from a lascannon negated, when you could use a weaker weapon, such as plasma and missiles, and have a greater chance of the damage going through?
Urgh, that quantum shielding thing being true riles me a lot. It's a total switch from how it used to work - instead of being super weak to high str guns and immune to small arms, we're now weak to small arms and mediocre against high str. It's just change for the sake of change. It's also not even good - against a lascannon, it basically works out to be a 5++ - you have a 1/3 chance to roll lower than an opponent in a dice off. Versus D3 damage (and also damage 2), you've got a 6++; 13 missiles will outright kill an Annhilation Barge,. I guess Necron vehicles are going to play a very different role, if any role at all - the command barge looks powerful, but at T6 W8 3+ it doesn't seem that likely to actually DO anything. Destroyers are now insanely expensive - if I'm reading correct, 43 points plus 20 for the Gauss cannon, which is 63 points each and they're -1 BS to hit if they move?! Considering they were good but outclassed in 7th and bad in 5th & 6th, I can't see how an over 50% point increase could possibly be warranted. Annihilation barges got smacked into the ground - not only is S7 much weaker, losing TL so they only get 4 shots is cripplingly awful and they're way more fragile. Death rays have gone from auto hit, to lance blast, and are now D3 shots... again, why the nerf when nobody took them anyway?! Conversely, 12 point(!) Necron warriors with AP-1 are super solid, and their guns cost 0 points. Immortals seem to be the same cost (8+9 for 17 total), but the Tesla Carbine is pretty good now - assault 2 means that compared to the Gauss blaster, it's much better past 12" and you can run+fire. Of course, the gauss blaster is also a monster at close range with that -2. To make up for the Warscythe losing the initiative and strength advantage VS powerfists, they got... worse damage on average than powerfists? Because, you know, everyone was complaining Lychguard were just dominating the table, right? I dunno, just weird changes.
I mean, looking over it, a ton has been changed and there doesn't really seem to be any reason for it. Check out the C'tan powers for example:
1. Antimatter meteor - Roll a D6; on a 2+ the closest enemy unit within 24" visible to the C'tan shard suffers D3 mortal wounds.
2. Time's Arrow - Choose a visible enemy unit within 24" of the C'tan Shard and roll a D6. If the result is greater than the Wound's characteristic of that unit, that model is killed.
3. Seismic Assault - Roll a D6 for each enemy model in the nearest enemy unit within 24" of the C'tan Shard. For each roll of 6 that unit suffers a mortal wound.
So, we have a bad (but reliable) smite, an attack which is only really good against 2/3 wound models (super kill a single Primaris Marine!) and an anti-horde-but-not-really-very-good-at-it power. Pretty awful considering how many psykers can throw Smite at us without any repercussions at all, yet we get to, once per turn, maybe do D3 mortal wounds. Now look at Deathmarks - 20 points a model? Hard to see why, on the grounds nobody was taking them at all.
So, who knows how we'll fare frankly. Lots of things which look like nerfs, plenty of things looking like buffs and then a lot of random rules changes with no explanation. Even if this was still 7e, it'd be hard to say how we'd do because of all the changes to core rules, so I'll wait it out. That said, I still don't have high hopes for the C'tan, Annihilation Barges, Destroyers (of any kind) or Deathmarks - they all look worse than their current not-good-enough selves. Disappointing, to be blunt, especially looking at the Tau leaks and seeing how strong all their stuff is in comparison to ours. Maybe that's why our faction focus is last.
Denegaar wrote:I can read Italian pretty well, if you want any piece of info I can help. I'm not a native though, I can miss something.
Could you translate the Doomsday Cannon rules, Nemesor Zahndrekh and the Command Barge? The command barge particularly looks interesting from what I can understand but my Italian is poor at best. I know that's a lot to ask, so feel free to say no.
We don't know the rules for destroyers though. Their stats haven't been released yet.
Gauss Cannons appear to be a bit more dangerous, now that they deal D3 damage.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: We don't know the rules for destroyers though. Their stats haven't been released yet. Gauss Cannons appear to be a bit more dangerous, now that they deal D3 damage.
The damage thing is a very small buff, most things won't care and the things which do probably shouldn't be targeted by S5. And unless Destroyers get better than jetpack+rerolling 1's to hit & wound (or just rerolling entirely in the formation), it's hard to see how they could justify a 50% cost increase while Immortals, who now get AP-2, stayed the same price. Even if they gain a wound, would you rather have 3 Immortals (with points to spare) or 1 Destroyer? I know which option I'd take 100% of the time.
Well, we have no coherent picture about the Necron rules so far.
I'd be interested to find out more about the policy of GW recasting the Necrons.
What's the rationale behind the changes?
So, who knows how we'll fare frankly. Lots of things which look like nerfs, plenty of things looking like buffs and then a lot of random rules changes with no explanation. Even if this was still 7e, it'd be hard to say how we'd do because of all the changes to core rules, so I'll wait it out. That said, I still don't have high hopes for the C'tan, Annihilation Barges, Destroyers (of any kind) or Deathmarks - they all look worse than their current not-good-enough selves. Disappointing, to be blunt, especially looking at the Tau leaks and seeing how strong all their stuff is in comparison to ours. Maybe that's why our faction focus is last.
You mean the 200 point broadsides and 300+ point riptides? No lol.
Doomsday Cannon is pretty blurry... as far as I can see it says that can just shoot at High Power if it remained stationary, then it says something to change it's type to Heavy D6 if shoots at 10 or more models? I can't read that last part, I'm quite blind.
Zanderekh and Obyron are already translated in another thread:
Zanderekh at the start of enemy turn choose a character within 12 and it can't activate auras
4++
at the beginning of your turn choose a sautek infantry within 6 and add 1 to advance, charges and hit rolls
passing madness: roll a d3, choose an infantry unit within 6 at the start of the turn
1: avenge the fallen: + 1 attack
2: stop the rebellion: +1 to bs 3: sunmills? charge!: reroll charge
Obyron If killed, he can still fight in the phase (like the Wulfens, for example)
Can reroll leadership tests of Sautekh units within 6"
At the end of the movement phase you can teleport Obyron and a unit of Sautekh infantry within 6" of Zandrek
If within 3" of Zandrek he can take Zandrek's wounds
(the last two has been cut so maybe they're not complete/completely right)
Command Barge Living Metal
Command Wave (?): +1 to advance, charge and hit within 12" to one unit. Not stacking with other buffs like this.
Quantum shielding: Avoids dmg if you roll (d6) less than the damage received.
Ressurrection Orb: Repeat RP rolls (theres more info but its cut)
Explodes: When it dies, roll a d6, on 6 it explodes and deals ? Mortal Wounds to every unit within ? (cut too)
Command Barge
Living Metal
Command Wave (?): +1 to advance, charge and hit within 12" to one unit. Not stacking with other buffs like this.
Quantum shielding: Avoids dmg if you roll (d6) less than the damage received.
Ressurrection Orb: Repeat RP rolls (theres more info but its cut)
Explodes: When it dies, roll a d6, on 6 it explodes and deals ? Mortal Wounds to every unit within ? (cut too)
Are there some informations about the rules for chariots?
Command Barge
Living Metal
Command Wave (?): +1 to advance, charge and hit within 12" to one unit. Not stacking with other buffs like this.
Quantum shielding: Avoids dmg if you roll (d6) less than the damage received.
Ressurrection Orb: Repeat RP rolls (theres more info but its cut)
Explodes: When it dies, roll a d6, on 6 it explodes and deals ? Mortal Wounds to every unit within ? (cut too)
Are there some informations about the rules for chariots?
Well, keywords on the Command Barge are: Vehicle, Overlord, Fly and Catacomb Command Barge. On the top part it says something like "The CCB is commanded by an Overlord", but nothing on getting out of the vehicle or something like this.
KillswitchUK wrote:You mean the 200 point broadsides and 300+ point riptides? No lol.
I mean, crisis suits can get 2 plasma guns for 64 points. Compare that to the 63 point Destroyer - which would you rather take? Likewise, the 200 point Broadsides hugely outgun the C'tan. Like for like, Tau just seem stronger; presumably RP is meant to make up for the deficit, but I doubt we'll ever actually roll for RP.
Denegaar wrote:[snip]
Well that all sounds cool. Don't know why anyone would ever take Zahndrekh over a normal Overlord, but hey, at least they've gotten better.
It's tough to say without context but it seems like a lot of things are weaker. Until we know the stat lines and the special rules and compare them to other armies it's really tough to make any sort of definitive claims.
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: It's tough to say without context but it seems like a lot of things are weaker. Until we know the stat lines and the special rules and compare them to other armies it's really tough to make any sort of definitive claims.
As much as I'm complaining about bad stuff seemingly getting worse, a lot of stuff we already take has gotten a lot better. Warriors with -1 AP is actually pretty scary for marine armies and they're cheaper. Immortals are buffed immensely from AP-2 Gauss Blasters, and assault 2 tesla carbines are awesome. Overlords now give out a ridiculous shooting/assault buff and hit on 2+. Catacomb Command Barges seem to be better in assault and the Tesla Cannon is now 3 shots. Scarabs wound everything on 5+ and are only 13 points. Deathmarks, assuming they've got relatively similar special rules, now have a better gun because it ignores invulns on a 6.
I just think it's bizarre is all. "Look, the monolith is as tough as it's 3e version!... for almost double the cost"; "hey, Annihilation Barges are really fast now!... and die to a draught"; "look, we made twin linked things double shots!... not you though Necrons". Very odd choices all around. I tell you what, for almost 500 points the Tesseract Vault had better have some ridiculous nuke, because it's now more expensive than 41 warriors. I can't even believe how much weaker the telsa destructor got - from 5.33 average hits to 4, that's a third less effective, and it's now worse than an autocannon per hit because they do 2 damage. It's really frustrating.
I don't think we're going to suffer too much, but compared to some armies, it's pretty obvious that we've taken a bad blow and are not going to be near the top of the game.
The tesla destructor statline was leaked a page earlier. Its Assault 5 now...which means that the twin telsa destruction, which annihilation barges are armed with, get 10 shots.
Remember that there is no such thing in the necron army as a single tesla destructor; its always twinlinked.
Oh, actually you're right. I didn't think there was an entry for twin tesla destructors but there is. Well, never mind me then. Still, seems weird they still include a single tesla destructor on the stats when nothing actually gets one.
Doppio of course being italian for double/twin. Above it is the twin linked heavy gauss cannon for reference.
Oh wow there is an entry. I did not see that.
Whats the tesla weapon near the botton then? I don't really remember any teslas other than carbines, cannons and distructors.
Doppio of course being italian for double/twin. Above it is the twin linked heavy gauss cannon for reference.
Oh wow there is an entry. I did not see that.
Whats the tesla weapon near the botton then? I don't really remember any teslas other than carbines, cannons and distructors.
I desperately want to know what Tomb Blades are getting, now.
If Scopes still do the same thing, the usual load out (TL Gauss Blaster, Scopes, Shields) could be pretty damn effective... only issue is they've gone up in price, so I'm not sure how they might fare compared to what you might be able to get for the same amount of points.
skoffs wrote: I desperately want to know what Tomb Blades are getting, now.
If Scopes still do the same thing, the usual load out (TL Gauss Blaster, Scopes, Shields) could be pretty damn effective... only issue is they've gone up in price, so I'm not sure how they might fare compared to what you might be able to get for the same amount of points.
Good point, there's no entry for TL Gauss Blasters or Tesla carbines. What weapons are they actually going to have? Also, can one of our kind Italian speaking readers translate the melee weapons with special rules next to them? I can translate the names easily, but the long paragraphs are somewhat harder. Does it say that the Nightbringer does 7 damage per attack to vehicles?!
Denegaar wrote: Strenght of Nightbringer Gaze is *. Nightbringer Gaze wounds on 2+, unless the foe is not a vehicle, in that case the strenght of the attack is 7.
Oh, well that's actually pretty awful. Considering in 3rd it was S10, and in 7th it had smash attacks that's quite a considerable nerf if it has no other weapon.
Well, HQs seem to hit on 2+ now, wounding on 3+ as opposed to 5/6+ on 2d6 isn't that different, and still negates saves for 3+ vehicles if I understand correctly. It's not that different from 7th, with dmg 2 compensating for wounds being HPx2 roughly. Exploding vehicles was going away anyway
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hm or perhaps wounding on 4 or 5 is more normsl
Still trying to parse through the Italian leaks but in general necrons are looking scary against infantry but looking a little lacking versus vehicles. The doomsday ark and heavy destroyer seem like the only real options against the knights or MCs (really anything T8 which is seeming common) of the game. Too soon to be doom and gloom of course but I'd love anyone else's thoughts so far.
buddha wrote: Still trying to parse through the Italian leaks but in general necrons are looking scary against infantry but looking a little lacking versus vehicles. The doomsday ark and heavy destroyer seem like the only real options against the knights or MCs (really anything T8 which is seeming common) of the game. Too soon to be doom and gloom of course but I'd love anyone else's thoughts so far.
Yeah, we're pretty screwed against vehicles, there's just no good way to deal with them any more.
380 points and they couldn't even let us keep monoliths hitting on 3+, or let the Nightbringer keep S10. I'm getting pretty sick of seeing everything go up in points and be substantially worse to be honest. Fear the mighty monolith and it's underwhelming collection of heavy bolters and a battlecannon which is as accurate as Joe the Guardsman! Watch in terror as the mighty C'tan flail ineffectually against a Dreadnought!
Monolith Gate of Eternity seems to indicate that when you use it or Night Scythes, they don't "carry" units so much as you put units in reserve and decide which ones to bring on, when. Which is great, since you can put Lychguard and Warriors in reserve and decide which one to bring out on which turn. Awesome!
C'tan look good. S7 is enough to threaten most things in combat, will never be wounding on 6s other than insane buffs/debuffs, and AP-4 and Damage d6 or 3 means you'll crash through any number of enemy units. The Nightbringer's shooting attack is particularly nasty.
You can bring a Deceiver and a Nightbringer together. Deceiver redeploys the Nightbringer forward, Nightbringer shoots his nasty attack on Turn 1, both use powers. Sounds great to me!
Even if our stuff has taken a step back in power (I'm not convinced that it has... just a starting proposition), we also know that other things in other armies have also taken a hit. Balance is good, change (at least from where things were) is good!
We are seeing more of the puzzle, but it isn't all there yet. It's like trying to judge the Mona Lisa by only looking at an eyebrow. Wait.. be patient.
Anpu-adom wrote: Even if our stuff has taken a step back in power (I'm not convinced that it has... just a starting proposition), we also know that other things in other armies have also taken a hit. Balance is good, change (at least from where things were) is good!
We are seeing more of the puzzle, but it isn't all there yet. It's like trying to judge the Mona Lisa by only looking at an eyebrow. Wait.. be patient.
I'm not sure we have taken a step back in power. Maybe a lateral move but based on the current leaks we still are hitting the normal necron Staples of durability and Mobility well. From the info we are getting, I am actually most worried about tyranids as a real paper to our Rock but we'll see when we get the complete picture.
Honestly it looks like our weapons still fill the role they did before. We don't have any direct weapons for dealing with heavy targets - Melta, Grav, Missilespam, etc - but we never did. Instead, we got by on spamming Gauss and mid-strength shooting coupled with durability.
Now, our midrange shooting is pretty good, everything having very good AP other than Tesla (but that getting more shots across the board if I'm not mistaken), and our durability is different but still extremely powerful in most cases. We'll play very similarly but with a couple tweaks and different units.
Anpu-adom wrote: Even if our stuff has taken a step back in power (I'm not convinced that it has... just a starting proposition), we also know that other things in other armies have also taken a hit. Balance is good, change (at least from where things were) is good!
We are seeing more of the puzzle, but it isn't all there yet. It's like trying to judge the Mona Lisa by only looking at an eyebrow. Wait.. be patient.
I'm not sure we have taken a step back in power. Maybe a lateral move but based on the current leaks we still are hitting the normal necron Staples of durability and Mobility well. From the info we are getting, I am actually most worried about tyranids as a real paper to our Rock but we'll see when we get the complete picture.
Necrons vs. Tyranids vs. Blood Angels is a storyline that I hope they flesh out. I'm really excited for my store's copy to get here.
Requizen wrote: Honestly it looks like our weapons still fill the role they did before. We don't have any direct weapons for dealing with heavy targets - Melta, Grav, Missilespam, etc - but we never did. Instead, we got by on spamming Gauss and mid-strength shooting coupled with durability.
Now, our midrange shooting is pretty good, everything having very good AP other than Tesla (but that getting more shots across the board if I'm not mistaken), and our durability is different but still extremely powerful in most cases. We'll play very similarly but with a couple tweaks and different units.
Except the reason why we never had as much dedicated anti armor was because it was a trade off for all of our weapons being able to damage vehicles. Now that trade off doesn't exist; we traded ubiquitous anti vehicle for anti-infantry, which we already had.
We still don't have as many at options as the other factions, with nothing to compensate.
Requizen wrote: Honestly it looks like our weapons still fill the role they did before. We don't have any direct weapons for dealing with heavy targets - Melta, Grav, Missilespam, etc - but we never did. Instead, we got by on spamming Gauss and mid-strength shooting coupled with durability.
Now, our midrange shooting is pretty good, everything having very good AP other than Tesla (but that getting more shots across the board if I'm not mistaken), and our durability is different but still extremely powerful in most cases. We'll play very similarly but with a couple tweaks and different units.
Except the reason why we never had as much dedicated anti armor was because it was a trade off for all of our weapons being able to damage vehicles. Now that trade off doesn't exist; we traded ubiquitous anti vehicle for anti-infantry, which we already had.
We still don't have as many at options as the other factions, with nothing to compensate.
Requizen wrote: Honestly it looks like our weapons still fill the role they did before. We don't have any direct weapons for dealing with heavy targets - Melta, Grav, Missilespam, etc - but we never did. Instead, we got by on spamming Gauss and mid-strength shooting coupled with durability.
Now, our midrange shooting is pretty good, everything having very good AP other than Tesla (but that getting more shots across the board if I'm not mistaken), and our durability is different but still extremely powerful in most cases. We'll play very similarly but with a couple tweaks and different units.
Except the reason why we never had as much dedicated anti armor was because it was a trade off for all of our weapons being able to damage vehicles. Now that trade off doesn't exist; we traded ubiquitous anti vehicle for anti-infantry, which we already had.
We still don't have as many at options as the other factions, with nothing to compensate.
Not really. AV -2 is still AV-2, whether it is on a vehicle or infantry.
Requizen wrote: Honestly it looks like our weapons still fill the role they did before. We don't have any direct weapons for dealing with heavy targets - Melta, Grav, Missilespam, etc - but we never did. Instead, we got by on spamming Gauss and mid-strength shooting coupled with durability.
Now, our midrange shooting is pretty good, everything having very good AP other than Tesla (but that getting more shots across the board if I'm not mistaken), and our durability is different but still extremely powerful in most cases. We'll play very similarly but with a couple tweaks and different units.
Except the reason why we never had as much dedicated anti armor was because it was a trade off for all of our weapons being able to damage vehicles. Now that trade off doesn't exist; we traded ubiquitous anti vehicle for anti-infantry, which we already had. We still don't have as many at options as the other factions, with nothing to compensate.
Nothing to compensate? Ok buddy.
I...just remembered that everything wounds on a 6. So nothing actually changed. Gauss still wounds vehicles on a six, the vehicle just gets less armor now compared to other factions basic weapons.
Requizen wrote: Honestly it looks like our weapons still fill the role they did before. We don't have any direct weapons for dealing with heavy targets - Melta, Grav, Missilespam, etc - but we never did. Instead, we got by on spamming Gauss and mid-strength shooting coupled with durability.
Now, our midrange shooting is pretty good, everything having very good AP other than Tesla (but that getting more shots across the board if I'm not mistaken), and our durability is different but still extremely powerful in most cases. We'll play very similarly but with a couple tweaks and different units.
Except the reason why we never had as much dedicated anti armor was because it was a trade off for all of our weapons being able to damage vehicles. Now that trade off doesn't exist; we traded ubiquitous anti vehicle for anti-infantry, which we already had.
We still don't have as many at options as the other factions, with nothing to compensate.
Not really. AV -2 is still AV-2, whether it is on a vehicle or infantry.
Yeah, I just remembered they changed how wounding works. Everything wounds on a 6 now.
Requizen wrote: Honestly it looks like our weapons still fill the role they did before. We don't have any direct weapons for dealing with heavy targets - Melta, Grav, Missilespam, etc - but we never did. Instead, we got by on spamming Gauss and mid-strength shooting coupled with durability.
Now, our midrange shooting is pretty good, everything having very good AP other than Tesla (but that getting more shots across the board if I'm not mistaken), and our durability is different but still extremely powerful in most cases. We'll play very similarly but with a couple tweaks and different units.
Except the reason why we never had as much dedicated anti armor was because it was a trade off for all of our weapons being able to damage vehicles. Now that trade off doesn't exist; we traded ubiquitous anti vehicle for anti-infantry, which we already had.
We still don't have as many at options as the other factions, with nothing to compensate.
Nothing to compensate? Ok buddy.
Please point out the anti armor options they get in return for the loss of gauss effectiveness against vehicles.
Extra Ap doesn't count, because you still have to wound in order to proc it. As I said before, the change to gauss makes them more effective against infantry, which we already had plenty ways to deal with. Its not really a net gain. Certainly strong, but not quite what was needed for a balanced armory.
We never had a "balanced armory". Our only anti-vehicle weapons (Heavy Destroyers) were nearly as expensive per model as squads of other things for one shot. We never had a drop pod melta or anything like that, we relied on mass Gauss. Now we're going to rely on Mass Gauss again.
"But everyone else can wound on 6s too!"
Oh? Do bolters have AP-1? Do heavy bolters have AP-2? Our basic weapons look to be the best in the game at this point in time, making wounds that get through able to stick harder than anyone else (that don't do MWs). And we have more mobility options than ever before given how our Reserves seem to work now and Deceiver being worth taking and essentially giving d3 units Infiltrate.
Are we going to be able to instagib Knights, Landraiders, and Soul Grinders? No, but we've haven't been able to do that for years, so who cares? If you compare our current playstyle to the new rules, we're going to play very much the same and do it just as well if not better from the current looks.
Yeah I remembered the wounding change. Everything is working as intended. Now what do crypteks get? Any word on them? Is Lance of Destruction still a thing?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah I remembered the wounding change. Everything is working as intended.
Now what do crypteks get? Any word on them? Is Lance of Destruction still a thing?
Looks like the old Cryptek weapons are in the book, no word on them though.
It's also worth noting we haven't seen flayed ones' or scarabs' profiles yet. Scarabs have always been pretty good VS vehicles, and if they always wound on 5+ and keep their high number of attacks, that's not going to be changing. Flayed ones were a whirligig of death in 7th too and have gone up in cost, so it'll be pretty interesting to see how they play out.
I think we've just had all the bad news up front. I hope. For sure, Immortals look really scary, and Warriors are super cheap. I'm hoping that when we see stuff like the Triarch Stalker and the Wraith rules that it'll be a breath of fresh air.
Requizen wrote: Honestly it looks like our weapons still fill the role they did before. We don't have any direct weapons for dealing with heavy targets - Melta, Grav, Missilespam, etc - but we never did. Instead, we got by on spamming Gauss and mid-strength shooting coupled with durability.
Now, our midrange shooting is pretty good, everything having very good AP other than Tesla (but that getting more shots across the board if I'm not mistaken), and our durability is different but still extremely powerful in most cases. We'll play very similarly but with a couple tweaks and different units.
Except the reason why we never had as much dedicated anti armor was because it was a trade off for all of our weapons being able to damage vehicles. Now that trade off doesn't exist; we traded ubiquitous anti vehicle for anti-infantry, which we already had.
We still don't have as many at options as the other factions, with nothing to compensate.
All capable of blowing up armour very easily, especially now they've been buffed to have more durability. Our flyers are some of the best in the game, have we seen a profile for the death ray yet?
All capable of blowing up armour very easily, especially now they've been buffed to have more durability. Our flyers are some of the best in the game, have we seen a profile for the death ray yet?
We have big guns.
Heavy Destroyers are 75 points for 1 shot. Stalkers are at best 171 for 2. Doom scythes are 220. Pylons won't have rules on release. Doomsday Arks are 203 and can't move. Nightshrouds won't have rules on release. Warscythes are barely better than autocannons now. None of these solve the issue of needing mass anti tank. Compared to other races, Necrons are in a tough spot.
Deathrays are heavy D3 S10 AP-4 D6 damage. In other works, they're slightly better lascannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, I got some answers on /tg/ about Destroyers:
destroyers are 43 pts (heavys aswell) gauss cannon 20 pts heavy gauss cannon 32 pts
m 10" ws 3+ bs 3+ s 4 t 5 w 3 a 3 ld 10 sv 3+
may reroll to hit rolls of 1
can move and fire heavy weapons without suffering the -1 to hit
gauss cannon: 24" heavy 2 s 5 ap -3 dmg d3
heavy gauss cannon 36" heavy 1 s 9 ap -4 dmgd6
Here's some maths versus 3 Immortals, versus what I thought would be common profiles (the equivalent points):
VS T3/4 5+: Warriors with Gauss(T3) - 1.85 wounds, 3.70 within 12"
Warriors with Gauss(T4) - 1.39 wounds, 2.78 within 12"
Immortals with Gauss - 1.33 wounds, 2.67 within 12"
Immortals with Tesla - 2.67 wounds
Destroyers - 1.04 wounds
VS T3/4 3+: Warriors with Gauss(T3) - 1.11 wounds, 2.22 within 12"
Warriors with Gauss(T4) - 0.83 wounds, 1.67 within 12"
Immortals with Gauss - 0.89 wounds, 1.78 within 12"
Immortals with Tesla - 1.33 wounds
Destroyers - 0.86 wounds (1.67 to multiwound)
VS T3/4 W2 2+: Warriors with Gauss(T3) - 0.74 wounds, 1.48 within 12"
Warriors with Gauss(T4) - 0.56 wounds, 1.11 within 12"
Immortals with Gauss - 0.67 wounds, 1.33 within 12"
Immortals with Tesla - 0.67 wounds
Destroyers - 1.38 wounds (0.69 vs 1 wound models)
VS T5 W2 (or more) 3+: Warriors with Gauss - 0.56 wounds, 1.11 within 12"
Immortals with Gauss - 0.67 wounds, 1.33 within 12"
Immortals with Tesla - 1 wound
Destroyers - 1.30 wounds (0.65 vs 1 wound models)
VS T6/7/8/9 W2 (or more) 3+: Warriors with Gauss(T6/7) - 0.56 wounds, 1.11 within 12"
Warriors with Gauss(T8+) - 0.28 wounds, 0.56 within 12"
Immortals with Gauss - 0.44 wounds, 0.89 within 12"
Immortals with Tesla - 0.67 wounds
Destroyers - 0.86 wounds (0.43 vs 1 wound models)
Seeing these actually changed my mind on Destroyers a little. They're slightly behind against any 1 wound model, but only really significantly for units with 5+ saves. However, on multiple wound models, they always come out ahead at range due to the D3 damage. Meanwhile, tesla is a great average between half and full range Gauss, falling almost exactly half way between the 2 thanks to averaging 1 hit per shot, while suffering from no AP. Generally, that means you'd want Gauss Immortals for short range, Tesla Immortals for long range and Destroyers for multiwound units between 12"-24". Destroyers make up for some loss in wound output with higher toughness and movement. Overall they seem relatively balanced if a little superfluous; I think I'd still rather take the bodies elsewhere. However, Immortals clearly beat warriors in many situations, notably against MEQ /TEQ and T8+, yet worse against the common T6/7 as well as hordes with poor saves. I feel like a unit of both might actually be a good, balanced approach in the new edition as neither are obviously better.
Final verdict: Destroyers are durable and mobile, but underwhelming, filling no necessary role. Take something better, like something which is kills tanks.
"Solarmills? Charge!"
Zahndrekh confirmed for 40k Don Quixote.
(though seriously, I actually kinda like his madness abilities. Keep a variety of units near him and he'll always have something useful to give out)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Glad we have more info, and in English this time, but a little disappointed they still haven't gotten shots of all the entries (eg. Destroyers, Vault, Night Scythes, etc)
Really, physically hurting to find out what Crypteks (including the SCs) and Anrakyr do.
They even cut Lychguard off right before showing if maybe, just maybe, we got the Dispersion Shield bounce back.
--
With what info we have available I've been milling over the idea of a very expensive slingshot, using the Deceiver and the Monolith, to get around "no portal deploying on turn 1" and "no turn 1 charges with Deceiver's redeploy."
Relocate the Deceiver and the Monolith (and maybe some more stuff, like perhaps Pyrhhian Eternals, please lord let someone reveal what Anrakyr does!), then at the start of your Movement Phase, deploy your reserved assault unit of choice from the Monolith. Move, charge, etc, and drag the Deceiver into combat with "Heroic Intervention," since piling in isn't charging...
Drakmord wrote: Really, physically hurting to find out what Crypteks (including the SCs) and Anrakyr do.
Current rumor was that Crypteks add 1 to Reanimation rolls (meaning half your dudes stand up in a bubble around him) and also he gives out a 5++ against shooting like current Chronometron.
Not to mention if you look at weapons, the Harbinger weapons are back!
With what info we have available I've been milling over the idea of a very expensive slingshot, using the Deceiver and the Monolith, to get around "no portal deploying on turn 1" and "no turn 1 charges with Deceiver's redeploy."
Relocate the Deceiver and the Monolith (and maybe some more stuff, like perhaps Pyrhhian Eternals, please lord let someone reveal what Anrakyr does!), then at the start of your Movement Phase, deploy your reserved assault unit of choice from the Monolith. Move, charge, etc, and drag the Deceiver into combat with "Heroic Intervention," since piling in isn't charging...
Costs a ton, but everything does now it seems!
Pretty cool combo! Plus since you're using a Monolith, you can put stuff in reserve so you've got a good shot at going first! I think Deceiver will have a lot of really cool options going forward.
Also note those 3 Wound Wraiths! Still 3++ and T5, they just get tougher every edition. And... cheaper by 2 points per model? I guess they didn't sell enough! Transdimensional Beamers are both better and worse - more shots and Heavy works differently, so you'll actually hit with them, but also no more chance of just removing models. But, chances at MWs is good as is just more AP-1 shooting.
Can't wait for the rest! While I really was hoping to put 3 Monoliths on the table, it's looking like footcrons are the way to go for the time being, with a Monolith mixed in for spicy teleport shenanigans.
Are the Harbinger weapons back?! I could only spot the Eldritch Lance and Staff of Tomorrow, which I assumed to belong to the Szeras and Orikan, respectively. I'll have to keep looking!
hmm, doesn't say if lychguard can mix and match, dont think so however.
Obryn's teleport is annoying now, needs Zandrekh to use. i suppose a 1-2 combo with some scythe guard reinforcing a zandrekh thats been transported up the board by a nightscythe?
wraiths..... 3W and -1 rend base is nice. TDB is not a pistol anymore, probably would have been auto include if it was. Whip coils, nice bit of reassurance that they will get their damage off, but I feel the particle casters are a better investment? 9 points of whip coils vs 4 points particle casters?
Particle shredder is pretty good now, heavy 6.
Actually, how come the death ray and doomsday cannon are only heavy d3, while the particle shredder is heavy 6 when all were large blasts in 7th?
Another nerf to GA, now twinlinked 5 not salvo, meaning we lose shots if at full range vs. 7th.
Nice to see our deathmarks get the good snipers, with mortal wounds on 6's.
Particle beamer vs gauss blaster, heavy 3, S6, AP0, D1 vs rapid fire 1, S5, AP-2, D1. Feels the gauss blasters are going to be the way to go all the time now, most consistent damage, and will probably be TL on the TB, so rapid fire 2?
Nightbringer and Deciever look good again. Big improvement over 7th, Nightbringer has more reliable damage, but decievers ability is good too, maybe both of them would be good on the field. Expensive though.
One thing that bugs me is that Zandrekh, Obryn and Imotekh have the Sautekh keywords. It makes sense fluff wise, but now if i want to bring them my Nihilakh crons will have to be 'on loan' to the Sautekh dynasty so they can benefit from their auras....
Scarabs are 7points cheaper a model, Deathmarks, praetorians, tomb blades scytheguard and flayed ones are more expensive, immortals are the same (so buffed considering their damage now).
Im happy overall new(old) RP has more counterplay now, and is different workings, gives more thematic feel to the crons.
Drakmord wrote: Are the Harbinger weapons back?! I could only spot the Eldritch Lance and Staff of Tomorrow, which I assumed to belong to the Szeras and Orikan, respectively. I'll have to keep looking!
Agh, you're probably right, I forgot they had those names. I was hyped on the idea of Harbingers but you're probably right.
@Eyjio looks like Destroyers will be our go-to against elite multiwound armies. Will sit on the shelf if hordes become the meta, but if Primaris and Grey Knights are on all the tables they'll be in all my lists.
Klowny wrote: Also, Nightbringer has fly... so can fight flyers?
Close combat weapons:
Automaton claws - ?
Cracking Tendrils - Sypder
Feeder mandibles - Scarabs?
Massive Forelimbs - ?????????????????????????? (potentially a misprint of star-god fists? or maybe trancendant's CCW)
The claws most likely belong to Spyders. Mandibles are Scarabs, and have that always wound on 5+ rule, while Massive Forelimbs are the CCWs of the Triarch Stalker. For Crackling Tendrils, I have no idea; the TCtan has star-god fists like the Deceiver. Perhaps a name for some vehicles' assault option?
So tried to put together a 2k necron list, man it's tiny. It's hard to get a good balance of melee and shooting as tight as the points are now. I erred on the side of shooting things, because even our best melee units seem pretty second string compared to things like khorne berserkers and hordes of bugs. At 2k I couldn't even fit in any neat stuff in like C'Tan or a Monolith (which now cost as much as an imperial knight). The one Gimmick I did manage to squeeze in was the 20 man warrior blob backed up by a now very expensive ghost ark. It's over in the army list forum.
Massive Forelimbs might be fun the Triarch Stalker.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oops, didn't see the above response.
Personally I want to see the Stalkers info the most, now.
What does it give out?
If dreads are supposed to be better this edition, what can we expect from ours?
On another note, I am eager to see what the dynasty rules will be. They seemed to have split up characters by dynasty keywords, which will limit choices a bit. Hopefully they are all balanced.
Hmm. Really very few good options for killing tough enemy models. On the other hand, far fewer tough enemy models.
Monstrous creatures and tough characters are the really scary things this edition. Not being able to tackle MCs or characters will cripple us entirely. To that end, I think we're basically forced to take Doom Scythes or Doomsday Arks - nothing else even comes CLOSE to doing enough damage.
Thoughts:
-All named HQs have, so far, been very underwhelming compared to other factions'. Conclusion: don't bother.
-Support units too expensive, troops terrible VS vehicles but v efficient vs MEQ; MSU troops, 1 "blob" for hiding characters
-Need to be able to deal with hordes; not possible to deal with 120 Ork Boyz or 1 Wraightknight with same units - so don't try
-C'tan looking pretty solid due to mortal wound output
-There's no way you're ever taking any force org chart other than a battalion
-Reanimation protocols don't exist. Don't even think about them existing. You won't ever roll against a good player
-We really need the Tesseract Vault and Triarch Stalker rules; I suspect both are near mandatory looking at sample lists.
-Crypteks likely have no options; Eldritch Lance is Szeras' staff, Aeon thingy is Orikan, they have no points so don't get your hopes up.
Sample of what I'm thinking:
HQ Overlord, Warscythe - 112
Illuminor Szeras - 143
Elites C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer - 230
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver - 225
15 Flayed Ones - 315
Heavy Support Doomsday Ark - 203
Doomsday Ark - 203
Flyers Doom Scythe - 220
2k exactly. Okay, so it can't deal with anything particularly well, everything is incredibly squishy and it's unfocused. On the other hand, I'm struggling to do better; I could use Heavy Destroyers in place of Doomsday Arks and the Doom Scythe which gives me more firepower, however it also makes the army even easier to kill and marine players laugh at us with devastators/centurions. The flayed ones are literally just there to blob against assault units. I dunno, it feels very weak and very underpowered. If the enemy brings out any model with 20+ wounds, you might as well pack up. Maybe I'll try again later, but as it stands, I'm feeling quite glum.
Anyone seen Orikan's stats/abilities, yet? I'm really looking forward to including Monolith+Orikan+maybe a deciever+ a unit of wraiths + maybe Lychguard for using the most out of Monolith's gate and protecting Deciever+Orikan + gak ton of troops. Maybe sprinkle some Crypteks if that's doable. That looks pretty fun on paper.
Eyjio wrote: Hmm. Really very few good options for killing tough enemy models. On the other hand, far fewer tough enemy models.
Monstrous creatures and tough characters are the really scary things this edition. Not being able to tackle MCs or characters will cripple us entirely. To that end, I think we're basically forced to take Doom Scythes or Doomsday Arks - nothing else even comes CLOSE to doing enough damage.
Thoughts:
-All named HQs have, so far, been very underwhelming compared to other factions'. Conclusion: don't bother.
-True, but all our good HQ's weren't the named ones. Our CCB looks very good, D/lord with the beefed up phylactery etc. We will have good HQ's, just not Zandrekh/Obryn. But they were only ever situationally good.
-Support units too expensive, troops terrible VS vehicles but v efficient vs MEQ; MSU troops, 1 "blob" for hiding characters
Its the same for every army, you need to focus the correct weaponry at the correct targets. Not many troops from any army are good against vehicles. We were always the best, due to guass, we still have gauss, but we have an ap modifier. Our basic guns hurt everything, just like every army, but our basic guns hurt everything better than every other army. Plus we want the opposite of MSU, 2x 10 man warrior squads definetly get 0 RP if being focused, a 20 man squad has a larger chance of getting it.
-Need to be able to deal with hordes; not possible to deal with 120 Ork Boyz or 1 Wraightknight with same units - so don't try
I've never really had a problem with hordes, even less now. Our basic gun gives a AP-1, horde armies will have t-shirt saves, being negated vs our rapid fire weapons. Since bigger squads of warriors is better by the looks of it, 40 rapid fire shots will decimate hordes. And thats one blob, of our basic troops, who have gotten cheaper this edition. And tesla is now assault 2, so now theres even more chances of getting those 6's.
-C'tan looking pretty solid due to mortal wound output
-There's no way you're ever taking any force org chart other than a battalion
-Reanimation protocols don't exist. Don't even think about them existing. You won't ever roll against a good player
Is it really that bad? So 1 squad of warriors gets focused down a turn, or 1 squad of immortals, means the others are at fighting strength for longer. It't not all doom and gloom
-We really need the Tesseract Vault and Triarch Stalker rules; I suspect both are near mandatory looking at sample lists.
-Crypteks likely have no options; Eldritch Lance is Szeras' staff, Aeon thingy is Orikan, they have no points so don't get your hopes up.
Probably not many choices no, but that doesnt really matter though considering what they do... They have an inherent chronometron 5++ against shooting (good for that big blob of 20 warriors you want around to continuously RP) and a +1 to RP. And should be a cheap buff to a big squad of warriors.
Imagine if they were backed by a GA, feeding them more?
Sample of what I'm thinking:
HQ Overlord, Warscythe - 112
Illuminor Szeras - 143
Elites C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer - 230
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver - 225
15 Flayed Ones - 315
Heavy Support Doomsday Ark - 203
Doomsday Ark - 203
Flyers Doom Scythe - 220
2k exactly. Okay, so it can't deal with anything particularly well, everything is incredibly squishy and it's unfocused. On the other hand, I'm struggling to do better; I could use Heavy Destroyers in place of Doomsday Arks and the Doom Scythe which gives me more firepower, however it also makes the army even easier to kill and marine players laugh at us with devastators/centurions. The flayed ones are literally just there to blob against assault units. I dunno, it feels very weak and very underpowered. If the enemy brings out any model with 20+ wounds, you might as well pack up. Maybe I'll try again later, but as it stands, I'm feeling quite glum.
I agree Doomsday Arks are going to come back to prominence.
But, imagine a Monolith deepstriking without scattering, and delivering a blob of 20 flayed ones right in the enemies face, who can charge that turn, and strike first?
Or a squad of 10 scytheguard, who can charge that wraithknight, hit first with 2 attacks @ S7, AP-4, D2 each. Each wound that wraithknight has is now falling back to his invlun of 5++, and remember once these things lose wounds they get significantly weaker.
Meanwhile the monolith is putting out alot of firepower, itself being capable of stripping a multitute of wounds of big stuff. Heavy 6 S8 AP-2 D3 damage.....
Plus we haven't seen what the pylons can do, nor any of the FW stuff. If whatever they changed the beam to is still as potent as it was, we will have the tools capable of killing the big stuff. What if aranthracites are good again, or Tomb Stalkers?
Our army has never had the same tools as other armies. Lets remember this. GW said they were ensuring every army had its playstyle represented. Ours always was very good close range firepower (check), on very resilient chassis (Our troop choices rock a 3+ save). Our CC was always slow but potent, its still very potent, but now its alot faster.
We cant have everything, we have some of the best shooting in the game, some of the most resilient models in the game, some of the best flyers in the game. Sure we dont have LoW, or the ability to customise units like other armies, but we don't need to, we've always got the job done. GW continuously say that lots of playtesting has gone in to ensure that the game is balanced (i have my doubts) but i do hold out hope that we are still quite viable.
There's also something promised in the pipeline of the developing narrative (all factions being promised some goodies). Empire have had their fair share. Silent king or Void dragon are interesting candidates for greatness to come. GW may have taken this into account when dishing out the power at this stage.
The graph doesn't consider that you need to pay for your weapons separately. Heavy destroyers for instance cost 43+32 for a total of 75 points each.
Really nice to see this stuff in its entirely and in English. Destroyers have 3 wounds and Wraiths have 4 wounds. Overall it looks okay.
Deathmarks seem interesting. They aren't giving up their next shooting phase and you are getting an average of a hit per model if you can put them within 12. I'm also not sure if I am reading their weapon correctly but it says a mortal wound on a 6 PLUS any additional damage. Does that mean that they still need to roll a regular save for the wound inflicted? If yes, that seems pretty great. If not, their damage output seems questionable.
I highly doubt RP will need reinforcement points as it does not add to the squad size. I might be wrong, but my logic sais it won't. Btw, did anyone also notice how none of the characters have RP? Only the troops etc. If necron lords/OL's/Named characters etc die, they remain dead for sure.
EDIT: And something fun I thought of. Some of the vehicles (like the Ghost Ark, the Monolith and the Anni Barge) have the <Dynasty> key word. That's pretty important because it means crypteks can give those vehicles a 5++, which can be really helpful on such large pieces like the Monolith.
Destroyers are looking pretty good, actually. They are fast, have a nice weapon, lots of wounds and still have their rerolls.
43 points a model isn't too bad.
Do the points values include basic wargear? Its not very clear.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eyjio wrote: Wait, so we need to keep reinforcement points to reanimate at all? Am I reading that right?
Well, I guess my Necrons will actually just sit on a shelf then. That actually kills their flavour entirely.
No, it shouldn't. You aren't adding soldiers to the army, you are just bringing them back.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Destroyers are looking pretty good, actually. They are fast, have a nice weapon, lots of wounds and still have their rerolls.
43 points a model isn't too bad.
Do the points values include basic wargear? Its not very clear.
No, the points say excluding wargear. Destroyers are 63 per model, 75 for heavy destroyers. It's better to take 9 Praetorians than 5 Destroyers. The points are incredibly high and, as I showed earlier, you're not really gaining much for that cost.
You don't have as much range, damage or as many shots with praetorians though. Destroyers are better against heavier targets, and it will be easier to kite with them.
Not to mention that you won't be able to buff Praets as much, as they don't have the <dynasty> key word.
I must be losing my mind because I can't parse what the difference is between an ordinary Cryptek's 'Technomancer' ability and Szeras' 'Master Technomancer' ability.
MoonlightSonata wrote: I must be losing my mind because I can't parse what the difference is between an ordinary Cryptek's 'Technomancer' ability and Szeras' 'Master Technomancer' ability.
Technomancer is dynasty specific, Master Technomancer isn't.
Say you have Imotekh in your army, who's part of the Sautekh dynasty. He can buff Sautekh flayed ones, so you'd naturally want Sautekh flayed ones in your army to get the most mileage out of him.
You have a cryptek who's not part of the Sautekh dynasty. He cannot use Technomancer on those flayed ones, but if that cryptek was Seras, then he could due to the master technomancer rule.
It would also seem that technomancer does not work on Praetorians, as they do not have a <dynasty> specified.
3+/5++, 4 tesla shots per turn, or 4 gauss when in rapid fire. Ignoring cover.
Monolith doing D6 mortal wounds on a 4+ to charging units when half health and above. Awesome. I think this will be the star of most armies now. It is jam packed, has offensive and defensive capabilities, plus ways of getting around our limited movement. So happy, its the reason I started with crons! Such a cool vehicle.
Can't see why anyone would take a trancendant c'tan over the nightbinger/deceiver. Both are cheaper, and do more.
Tesseract Vault, 28W!!! It is expensive, and really, 2/3 c'tan powers are duds, the mortal wounds one is cool. But its tesla spheres can pump out the jam. So kinda underwhelming overall. Ill try it out, hopefully the powers are actually better in game than on paper.
Flayed ones are the same - 20 strong blob running out of an eternity gate, getting the charge. Delishious.
Illuminor Szerath! His mechanical augmentation can really make warriors scarier. 2+ to hit.
Ghost arks. So capacity is still 10. and only for warriors and characters. Boo. I cant remember if it applies to matched play or just the other two, (I'm 90% sure it does) but you dont have to take a full unit if you don't want, you just have to pay the points for a full unit regardless. So take a 9 man warrior unit chuck Szerath in there, floating gunship. It also allow's for RP rolls to be made at the end of the movement phase, so doubling up RP rolls it seems, as RP is made at the start of the turn. 20 man blob with a cryptek, 5++ and 4+ RP, backed up by a GA with another 9 warriors, the flayer array, and Szerath in there augmenting them all. Then you can do disembark and embark shenanigans if one squad drops really low >6 characters for instance, regen them back up and let the other 9 in the GA do the work.
The fabricator claw array is a bit ambiguous. It states that a vehicle can only be repaired once per game, yet most vehicles have living metal, which regains 1 wound per turn. I suppose living metal isnt considered 'repairing'? or else the claw array is useless?
2W praets and lychguard are good, more survivable now, as saves wont be negated anywhere near as much. I feel praets are the go for non monolith armies, as the speed is necessary, yet having a squad of scythe guard come out that eternity gate and charge. Yummo.
But the worst thing - Destroyer Lord. Hard nerf to his PE, now it only affects his to hits, and he is more suited to sitting back with this HD's and letting them reroll 1's to wound instead of the beatstick he used to be. Cant give him a 2+, but he does regen D3 with phlactery, which is worse overall. Sad face.
Question on Reanimation Protocols and Technomancer...
How any model that has been removed from the board be within 3 inches of the Cryptek to benefit from the Technomancer rule?
I mean... if it has been removed, it isn't on the board?
MoonlightSonata wrote: I must be losing my mind because I can't parse what the difference is between an ordinary Cryptek's 'Technomancer' ability and Szeras' 'Master Technomancer' ability.
Technomancer is dynasty specific, Master Technomancer isn't.
Say you have Imotekh in your army, who's part of the Sautekh dynasty. He can buff Sautekh flayed ones, so you'd naturally want Sautekh flayed ones in your army to get the most mileage out of him.
You have a cryptek who's not part of the Sautekh dynasty. He cannot use Technomancer on those flayed ones, but if that cryptek was Seras, then he could due to the master technomancer rule.
It would also seem that technomancer does not work on Praetorians, as they do not have a <dynasty> specified.
Got it, thanks. I've been used to Necrons being undifferentiated for 12 years so all these keyword shenanigans will take a bit of getting used to.
Also, why the hell is Trazyn listed as being Nihilakh? I thought his tomb world was Solemnace?
Thank you MoonlightSonata for the Necron pics. I am very hopeful for Necrons in 8th. We seem to work the same even if somethings have changed.
Kind of annoyed about match play though if we have to set aside points to activate RP. Be better off bring 2 units of warriors, immortals, flayed-ones, tomb blades etc then relying on RP if we pay to bring them back...
3+/5++, 4 tesla shots per turn, or 4 gauss when in rapid fire. Ignoring cover.
They're also 43 points base cost because they need to pay for both guns, or 34 with particle caster. You also can't take nebuloscope and shadowloom; if you take shieldvanes+shadowloom+tesla, they're 54 points per model. They're pretty bad honestly.
Odrankt wrote: Thank you MoonlightSonata for the Necron pics. I am very hopeful for Necrons in 8th. We seem to work the same even if somethings have changed.
Kind of annoyed about match play though if we have to set aside points to activate RP. Be better off bring 2 units of warriors, immortals, flayed-ones, tomb blades etc then relying on RP if we pay to bring them back...
The more I ruminate on it the more I don't think the match play thing applies to us because it specifically mentions creating new units. We can't bring units back once they're wiped out and we have no capacity to create new units from scratch.
Odrankt wrote: Thank you MoonlightSonata for the Necron pics. I am very hopeful for Necrons in 8th. We seem to work the same even if somethings have changed.
Kind of annoyed about match play though if we have to set aside points to activate RP. Be better off bring 2 units of warriors, immortals, flayed-ones, tomb blades etc then relying on RP if we pay to bring them back...
The more I ruminate on it the more I don't think the match play thing applies to us because it specifically mentions creating new units. We can't bring units back once they're wiped out and we have no capacity to create new units from scratch.
Klowny wrote:Ghost arks. So capacity is still 10. and only for warriors and characters. Boo. I cant remember if it applies to matched play or just the other two, (I'm 90% sure it does) but you dont have to take a full unit if you don't want, you just have to pay the points for a full unit regardless. So take a 9 man warrior unit chuck Szerath in there.
Is this possible, can anyone confirm? HQ and a 9 man squad of warriors in matched play? or just for the other two game modes.
bort123 wrote:ok... so... can the overlord cause a unit of immortals to tripple-hit on 5+ (with tesla carbines)?
"add 1 to the to hit rolls"
3+/5++, 4 tesla shots per turn, or 4 gauss when in rapid fire. Ignoring cover.
They're also 43 points base cost because they need to pay for both guns, or 34 with particle caster. You also can't take nebuloscope and shadowloom; if you take shieldvanes+shadowloom+tesla, they're 54 points per model. They're pretty bad honestly.
More survivable, more damaging than immortals, faster, better weapon options. Yes theyre expensive, overall better than a similar immortal unit?
Odrankt wrote: Thank you MoonlightSonata for the Necron pics. I am very hopeful for Necrons in 8th. We seem to work the same even if somethings have changed.
Kind of annoyed about match play though if we have to set aside points to activate RP. Be better off bring 2 units of warriors, immortals, flayed-ones, tomb blades etc then relying on RP if we pay to bring them back...
Yea reserve points apply to bringing in new units, we are just bringing models back to existing units. Literally clear as day, no ambiguity at all.
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Anpu-adom wrote: Anyone catch that you can't pull reserved Flayed Ones or Deathmarks out of a Nightscythe or Monolith?
How so? You have the option of setting them up in their tombworld, or in the other option the flayed ones have. Cant see whats stopping flayed ones or deathmarks from staying back on their tombworld and therefor allowing them to use the gate?
Klowny wrote: More survivable, more damaging than immortals, faster, better weapon options. Yes theyre expensive, overall better than a similar immortal unit?
True. Not at all bad as I said, but probably a little better - either more expensive and more durable, or similar cost but similarly durable.
The +1 to hit is a good catch, we should ask about that. It makes a big difference to Deathmarks too.
Anpu-adom wrote: Anyone catch that you can't pull reserved Flayed Ones or Deathmarks out of a Nightscythe or Monolith?
Yep.
For a first turn charge set it up 12 inches away, deploy 20 flayed ones 3 inches away from it and then use their movement to go 5 inches towards the enemy. Then they only need to make a 4" charge with overwatch casualties coming from the back.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Iirc, in matched play you always have to take min sized units, but in the other game modes you can take "understrength" squads.
Yea i had a quick look through the community site, couldn't find the page about understrength squads. :/
Fingers crossed we can. I remember it mentioning that you pay the points for the full squad, even if you dont have the models. The only game type you pay points for things though is matched play, the rest don't use the points system.
Klowny wrote: More survivable, more damaging than immortals, faster, better weapon options. Yes theyre expensive, overall better than a similar immortal unit?
True. Not at all bad as I said, but probably a little better - either more expensive and more durable, or similar cost but similarly durable.
The +1 to hit is a good catch, we should ask about that. It makes a big difference to Deathmarks too.
And the fact they are super fast compared to footslogging immortals. I do love me speed crons. And the 12 TB i have already
For the Flayed Ones and the Deathmarks it doesn't describe where they are as on the Tomb World... instead, in a "charnel pocket dimension" and a "Hyperspace Cubbette".
The rules for the Nighscythe and Monolith reference the Tombworld.
I'm imagining building myself a multi-level displayboard where the top is a tombworld, there are two little pockets underneath... one is like the inside of an empty Holodeck, and the other... well, Khorne would book a vacation in the other.
Anpu-adom wrote: For the Flayed Ones and the Deathmarks it doesn't describe where they are as on the Tomb World... instead, in a "charnel pocket dimension" and a "Hyperspace Cubbette".
The rules for the Nighscythe and Monolith reference the Tombworld.
It says you can set up in the charnel pocket or hyperspace cubbette, but the eternity gate stipulates you can set up any number of Crons on their tomb world.
It gives you versatility. Realistically, you dont need to gate the flayed ones, as they have their own deepstrike, so you can just make sure they are 9" away and then move the 5" then charge the 4". It maters for deathmarks more though, as you can either set them up in their own dimension thing to use the etheral interception rule, or on the tombworld if you want to gate them in.
EDIT: Just re-read it, realistically it doesn't matter for either, as using the gate is a waste of the gate as both can deepstrike themselves, so dont need the mobility. So while you can gate flayed ones/deathmarks, its a waste of a gate activation.
Anpu-adom wrote: For the Flayed Ones and the Deathmarks it doesn't describe where they are as on the Tomb World... instead, in a "charnel pocket dimension" and a "Hyperspace Cubbette".
The rules for the Nighscythe and Monolith reference the Tombworld.
It says you can set up in the charnel pocket or hyperspace cubbette, but the eternity gate stipulates you can set up any number of Crons on their tomb world.
It gives you versatility. Realistically, you dont need to gate the flayed ones, as they have their own deepstrike, so you can just make sure they are 9" away and then move the 5" then charge the 4". It maters for deathmarks more though, as you can either set them up in their own dimension thing to use the etheral interception rule, or on the tombworld if you want to gate them in.
EDIT: Just re-read it, realistically it doesn't matter for either, as using the gate is a waste of the gate as both can deepstrike themselves, so dont need the mobility. So while you can gate flayed ones/deathmarks, its a waste of a gate activation.
FO Deep Strike is at the end of Movement, so you need a 9" charge. Still doable, though.
I'm working on a full unit analysis, but right now I'm already seeing great combos. I'm really, really disappointed in Tomb Blades though. ~50 points for a single model? Ugh. Yes, they're buffed - extra wound, faster, double the shooting (Gauss in RF range is going to be brutal), but min units will have a rough time benefiting from RP and it'll be all but impossible to give them the Cryptek buffs (though you can follow them around with a CCB for a Res Orb.
Anrakyr + Lych Guard is going to be a pretty solid Deathstar. Anrakyr, Cryptek, Warscythe Guard = 3+/5++ W2 with THREE attacks each hitting ON TWOS. I'm a bit miffed that my Shieldguard feel worse now but even they will be rocking a rend -2 attack and an invuln in melee.
Flayed Ones with Imotekh are going to be brutal. Hitting on 2+, rerolling wounds? Thanks! Again can try to pop in Anrakyr and a Cryptek for an extra attack on each and 5++ against shooting.
Doomsday Arks are the new hotness, quote me on that. Bubble Wrap is a thing and they're all but impossible to instagib. I'm thinking of going infantry heavy with 2 Doomsday Arks.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: For you, maybe. I hated the idea of allies, especially when you're playing necrons.
Why should I have to work with filthy illogical meat sacks?
Because I kitbashed a Necron Renegade Knight and now it does nothing other than sit on a shelf. Not even anything in the army to proxy it as. Allies were also our source of hard anti-tank (though now Doom Scythes and Doomsday Arks can fulfill that well), so it's a bit more limiting.
It's not the end of the world, I just don't think it had to go. Especially while Chaos and Imperium armies still get to pal around with all their different forces. Yeah they have less rules sharing but it still sucks that they have all these options while we're limited to ourselves. I figured we'd at least still be able to ally with Tau since that's even in the fluff.
Anpu-adom wrote: Monoliths can't move units already on the board. Sadness.
Overall, I'm very happy with where we are sitting.
Yeah, I didn't like that change either.
Necrons are supposed to be good at teleporting, why do they have to ride around like peasants? :(
A good change is though is that gloom prisms are now good. Instead of being restricted by a pathetically short range (3", really GW?), they can now be used anywhere on the table, much like how other factions can use psykers.
That is nice, I like that.
I'm thinking spyders might be seeing a lot more play due to how much utility they provide. There doesn't seem to be any restriction on what they can take, so you can have one decked out with a gloom prism for anti-psy, a fabricator claw to keep our (fragile) vehicles alive, and a (two!) beamers for fire support.
Can anyone see any reason to take the Obelisk over 3 Annihilation Barges? It still seems really bad. Sigh, one day it'll be usable...
Stuff which looks particularly good:
-Anrakyr; same overlord stuff, but get +1S (S8 warscythe!), +1W, bonus bubble of attacks to a unit, Tachyon Arrow is actually pretty good (hit on 2+, D6 damage) and Mind in the Machine is still pretty funny. It's particularly funny if you overheat a plasma and slay a tank instantly.
-Warriors; actually pretty good. Masses of shooting and lots of bodies for not that many points.
-Immortals; work out slightly easier to kill that the same points of warriors, but also surprisingly deadly shooting. 67.5 shots kills a W10 3+ tank; it's a lot, but at half range that's only 40 odd Immortals
-Doomscythe; I'm half on the fence with these guys, but actually they're quite deadly. For 220 points, you get S10 shooting and 2 tesla destructors, all of which can target different units. Only downside is they're quite fragile, hard to maneuver and degrade. Still, they seem pretty sweet.
-Wraiths. Really strong units. Not much more to say - they just got better. I think they'll be more balanced considering the multi-wound weapons flying around, plus the amount of CC attacks some armies get, but they look formidable to me
-Heavy Destroyers; yes, I'm eating my words a bit here, but they're very durable, relatively accurate and put some deadly lascannon shots down range. Hidden in a unit of Destroyers, they're probably a necessity.
I'm still puzzling it over, but I think the key is in mass Immortals somewhere...
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Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: It would only be an 8 inch charge because you get the free 1 inch. So slightly less than a 50/50.
You have to be more than 9" away, so it's still a 9" charge even with the bonus inch.
- Glad every one of the "staves" the HQs carry have at least AP-2. Staff of Light is actually semi decent now!
- I'll pass on Imotekh. Again.
- Welp, not much point in taking a Destroyer Lord any more now, is there? We had ONE GUY who was good at combat. Now he's gotta have a gun-staff to be of any worth.
- I kinda like new Szeras being able to give out his buff to multiple units, but am really angry they kept it as random. Seriously, how does a "Master Techromancer" not know whether he's about to make a unit of Warriors better at shooting or better at punching until he's right about to do a thing?
- Orikan lost his save reroll... that sucks.
- Anrakyr's buff is no longer just for Immortals! Stick this guy with a bunch of choppy infantry, give them both the Pyrrhian & MWBD buffs and they should be decent blenders. (and he's S8 with his WS!)
- Zahndrekh much less appealing now that his buff is random.
- Wow, no Veil anymore? And Obyron can only use his mantle if Zahn is on the field? That is crap.
- Trazyn still not worth taking. Pity. We just saw him do amazing things in the Rising Storm books, and none of it is represented on the table top.
- CCB is only 2 wounds more than the named Overlords? I mean, yeah, it's got QS, but...
- If Mortal Wounds can't be save via invuln, there's not really much point to taking Shield on Lychguard who are bodyguards for characters, is there. They still can't mix wargear either...
- Deathmarks lost their ability to wound on a 2+ ... damn.
- Can't remember, is it possible for FOs to charge the turn they arrive from reserves via the new rules? They seem alright, but are a little too expensive to field en mass.
- Interesting, both Praet melee options are identical. Only difference now is what kind of shooting you want to give them.
- Stalkers no longer takeable in units of 3, huh? Moves decently fast, though. Still helps with shooting (though not as well as it did before).
- C'tan seem usable.
- Transports are... I dunno.
- Doom Scythe. I'll probably pass, unless I can figure something out for them.
- Wraith traded Rending for AP-1? Hmm...
- Scarabs could be decent. No farming any more, though.
- Tomb Blades still great... just much more expensive.
- Poor Destroyers, So expensive now. Is there anything that can give them +1 to hit anymore? Stalkers now only grant a thing they've already got naturally. (the least they could have done was give Heavies a bonus wound or a 2+ armor save)
- Yikes, Spyders don't seem very good. (oddly enough, Scarabs appear to be better at shooting than they are?)
- They are going to need to FAQ "Hovering" otherwise all five weapons on a Monolith can fire at the same target.
- That's a lot of potential damage an Annihilation Barge can pull off... on a really flimsy body. Less so for a Doomsday.
- I see no point for the T-C'tan. They really should have at least given it back a form of it's T-Slide from Apocalypse. Or at least two powers to use.
- T-Vault. Lots of shots. Lots of Wounds. Okay.
- Obelisk seems situational at best. Maybe you can drop it into the enemy deployment zone as a bomb?
Overall, feeling really underwhelmed. Just looking at what we've got now and comparing it to what I have on hand... I'm not sure what I'm going to be able to make that's any good. Especially compared to some of the stuff the other guys are getting. How are we supposed to compete with that?
Eyjio wrote: Can anyone see any reason to take the Obelisk over 3 Annihilation Barges? It still seems really bad. Sigh, one day it'll be usable...
Stuff which looks particularly good:
-Anrakyr; same overlord stuff, but get +1S (S8 warscythe!), +1W, bonus bubble of attacks to a unit, Tachyon Arrow is actually pretty good (hit on 2+, D6 damage) and Mind in the Machine is still pretty funny. It's particularly funny if you overheat a plasma and slay a tank instantly.
-Warriors; actually pretty good. Masses of shooting and lots of bodies for not that many points.
-Immortals; work out slightly easier to kill that the same points of warriors, but also surprisingly deadly shooting. 67.5 shots kills a W10 3+ tank; it's a lot, but at half range that's only 40 odd Immortals
-Doomscythe; I'm half on the fence with these guys, but actually they're quite deadly. For 220 points, you get S10 shooting and 2 tesla destructors, all of which can target different units. Only downside is they're quite fragile, hard to maneuver and degrade. Still, they seem pretty sweet.
-Wraiths. Really strong units. Not much more to say - they just got better. I think they'll be more balanced considering the multi-wound weapons flying around, plus the amount of CC attacks some armies get, but they look formidable to me
-Heavy Destroyers; yes, I'm eating my words a bit here, but they're very durable, relatively accurate and put some deadly lascannon shots down range. Hidden in a unit of Destroyers, they're probably a necessity.
I'm still puzzling it over, but I think the key is in mass Immortals somewhere...
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Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: It would only be an 8 inch charge because you get the free 1 inch. So slightly less than a 50/50.
You have to be more than 9" away, so it's still a 9" charge even with the bonus inch.
I think the loss of rending to the Wraiths is a pretty big blow, I'm not sure if they are still that strong, though they are more durable.
Destroyers have 3w each now, making heavies 4w is a bit excessive.
D Lords, like most necron characters, appear to now be buff dispensers. Stick them near destroyers for a good time.
I don't think destroyers are as bad as people are making them out to be.
They are still mobile, they still deal good damage, they are a source of multiple wounds, they are actually pretty tough and they can receive buffs. They are certainly expensive, but you are getting something for it.
Eyjio wrote: Can anyone see any reason to take the Obelisk over 3 Annihilation Barges? It still seems really bad. Sigh, one day it'll be usable...
Stuff which looks particularly good:
-Anrakyr; same overlord stuff, but get +1S (S8 warscythe!), +1W, bonus bubble of attacks to a unit, Tachyon Arrow is actually pretty good (hit on 2+, D6 damage) and Mind in the Machine is still pretty funny. It's particularly funny if you overheat a plasma and slay a tank instantly.
-Warriors; actually pretty good. Masses of shooting and lots of bodies for not that many points.
-Immortals; work out slightly easier to kill that the same points of warriors, but also surprisingly deadly shooting. 67.5 shots kills a W10 3+ tank; it's a lot, but at half range that's only 40 odd Immortals
-Doomscythe; I'm half on the fence with these guys, but actually they're quite deadly. For 220 points, you get S10 shooting and 2 tesla destructors, all of which can target different units. Only downside is they're quite fragile, hard to maneuver and degrade. Still, they seem pretty sweet.
-Wraiths. Really strong units. Not much more to say - they just got better. I think they'll be more balanced considering the multi-wound weapons flying around, plus the amount of CC attacks some armies get, but they look formidable to me
-Heavy Destroyers; yes, I'm eating my words a bit here, but they're very durable, relatively accurate and put some deadly lascannon shots down range. Hidden in a unit of Destroyers, they're probably a necessity.
I'm still puzzling it over, but I think the key is in mass Immortals somewhere...
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Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: It would only be an 8 inch charge because you get the free 1 inch. So slightly less than a 50/50.
You have to be more than 9" away, so it's still a 9" charge even with the bonus inch.
I think the loss of rending to the Wraiths is a pretty big blow, I'm not sure if they are still that strong, though they are more durable.
It's better in the long run. Before you would have to fish for 6s otherwise you'd just bounce off of Tacticals. Now everything being -1 (and wounding on 3s against most things in the game) is more reliable damage output. Harder to wound on 2s, but you'll never wound on 6s either. They're better all-arounders.
Overall, feeling really underwhelmed. Just looking at what we've got now and comparing it to what I have on hand... I'm not sure what I'm going to be able to make that's any good. Especially compared to some of the stuff the other guys are getting. How are we supposed to compete with that?
Seems indeed a bit underwhelming.
Maybe we will go nowhere and quit Necrons for another army...
Is there anything in other armies that looks particularly insane though? I'm seeing most other armies lose game breaking stuff and get flavorful abilities instead. I don't see much that's just a hard counter to us other than maybe pure Knight armies (and we may have the tools to combat those depending on build).
I wouldn't mind it so much, but several of the playtesters specifically said it was the most balanced it's ever been. Is it though? Really? Then why are so many Necron things incredibly underwhelming when compared to other factions? It's one thing to lose options that nobody took, but things like the veil of darkness and solar pulse have been in the Necron codex since it was created - why remove them now? I just don't understand. I look at marines and go "okay, this has shuffled up in cost, this down, this unit got more expensive but better". I look at Necrons and go "this got worse... and this... and this... this is trash... this is useless, etc". Even stuff which might be balanced like the Monolith has had its whole character changed from unstoppable death machine to very stoppable, hilariously inaccurate super-Leman Russ. It's just so disappointing.
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Requizen wrote: Is there anything in other armies that looks particularly insane though? I'm seeing most other armies lose game breaking stuff and get flavorful abilities instead. I don't see much that's just a hard counter to us other than maybe pure Knight armies (and we may have the tools to combat those depending on build).
Basically any of the Tyranid MCs. Genestealers and hormagaunts too, they hit us and there's nothing we can do to stop it. All marine armies are now super shooty; a twin assault cannon Razorback is T7 W10 3+ with 12 S6 AP-1 shots. We've got nothing even close to that good.
1. Unless I'm understanding it wrong, the monolith can't port a unit the same turn it arrives from deepstrike right?
Also ya, all it weapons trained on 1 target looks pretty devastating.
2. Everyone saying the destroyer lord is bad, it's pretty cheap for the stats it has, 135 pt beat stick that buffs destroyers isn't bad.
Plus it has the fly special rule so it can cut flyers to ribbons in close combat.
3. The profile on the annihilation barge was disappointing, but good god does it dish out a lot of hits. 146pts for 8 str7 telsa shots and 3 str6 tesla is a lots of potential hits. Since tesla averages 1 shot to 1 hit.
I'm actually looking forward to the crons in this edition. Not sure how to build them and the named characters being meh, doesn't bother me since I never really liked necrons having non-ctan named characters to begin with(Goes against my preferred 3rd edition fluff).
Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Yep, that's a really solid combo at the moment. Expensive, but good.
You'll want to bring a unit that can do well by itself, but I don't think any of our melee units "need" to be accompanied by Characters so much as they're just better whne they are. I'm thinking Praetorians are a good pick, since the redeploy + 10" move gives them a 1" charge if you go first, and only marginally longer if they go first and run away.
Okay, so,
My Will Be Done says a units gets +1 to hit ("add 1 to the Advance, Charge and hit rolls of that unit").
Is just for combat to-hit, or would it extend to shooting, too?
Because if so, Destroyers are BS10 equivalent again (3+ to hit naturally, +1 makes it 2+, rerolling 1s).
Actually, anything given MWBD shooting at a Stalker's target would be able to as well.
Also worth noting: Stalker lets any Necron unit, NOT JUST INFANTRY, reroll their 1s for shooting. Granted, MWBD only applies to Infantry, but letting Doomsday Arks and Death Scythes reroll their 1s against key targets is going to be pretty damn handy. (Not to mention Tesla Destructors that can potentially turn 1s into more 6s!)
Looking like Stalkers might have to be stocked up on.
The profile on the annihilation barge was disappointing, but good god does it dish out a lot of hits. 146pts for 8 str7 telsa shots and 3 str6 tesla is a lots of potential hits. Since tesla averages 1 shot to 1 hit.
The pt costs are odd numbers. This will not properly work. We have seen this in WMH at MK1. Then PP decided to downgrade the numbers severely making MK2 well playable. Those odd numbers are garbage to the quare.
Everyone, keep in mind that they are going to be doing codexes as well. This is our "get us by" White Dwarf release... perhaps not thrilling, but certainly better than what the Warhammer Fantasy armies got with the release of Age of Sigmar.
Who knows what or when we will get our codex, but we will get one.
Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Yep, that's a really solid combo at the moment. Expensive, but good.
You'll want to bring a unit that can do well by itself, but I don't think any of our melee units "need" to be accompanied by Characters so much as they're just better whne they are. I'm thinking Praetorians are a good pick, since the redeploy + 10" move gives them a 1" charge if you go first, and only marginally longer if they go first and run away.
Don't think that works. Core rules state that any unit that is teleported/deployed mid turn cannot move/advance further in that turn. It's under the reinforcements section on the core rule book.
Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Yep, that's a really solid combo at the moment. Expensive, but good.
You'll want to bring a unit that can do well by itself, but I don't think any of our melee units "need" to be accompanied by Characters so much as they're just better whne they are. I'm thinking Praetorians are a good pick, since the redeploy + 10" move gives them a 1" charge if you go first, and only marginally longer if they go first and run away.
Don't think that works. Core rules state that any unit that is teleported/deployed mid turn cannot move/advance further in that turn. It's under the reinforcements section on the core rule book.
No, they can't advance or move yet they can still charge. Since it isn't the beginning of the turn, By My Will and Wave of Command can't add the 1 inch to your charge.
We won't be getting Charges off of Deepstrike very often, unlike armies that get rerolls on charges.
Punisher wrote: Everyone saying the destroyer lord is bad, it's pretty cheap for the stats it has, 135 pt beat stick that buffs destroyers isn't bad.
Plus it has the fly special rule so it can cut flyers to ribbons in close combat.
Is he still a "beat stick", though?
He only hits on a 3+, where as the Overlords are all 2+.
He's lost Preferred Enemy, so while he can still reroll his melee to-hit 1s, he can no longer do so with his melee to-wound 1s, which was his big thing.
It looks like his role is now to hover at the back and encourage Heavy Destroyers to hurt things better.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Yep, that's a really solid combo at the moment. Expensive, but good.
You'll want to bring a unit that can do well by itself, but I don't think any of our melee units "need" to be accompanied by Characters so much as they're just better whne they are. I'm thinking Praetorians are a good pick, since the redeploy + 10" move gives them a 1" charge if you go first, and only marginally longer if they go first and run away.
You think that's bad, add Zahndrekh and Obyron to the mix.
1- Set up Monolith and Deceiver on table. Stick Zahndrekh in Tomb World reserves. Stick Obyron somewhere out of sight on the table next to a particularly nasty unit (Scythe-guard?)
2- Grand Illusion the Deceiver and Monolith (plus 1 or 2 other units if you're lucky?) to the other side of the table.
3- Turn 1, Zahn steps out of Monolith and whistles for Obyron.
4- "Hello there."
Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Yep, that's a really solid combo at the moment. Expensive, but good.
You'll want to bring a unit that can do well by itself, but I don't think any of our melee units "need" to be accompanied by Characters so much as they're just better whne they are. I'm thinking Praetorians are a good pick, since the redeploy + 10" move gives them a 1" charge if you go first, and only marginally longer if they go first and run away.
Don't think that works. Core rules state that any unit that is teleported/deployed mid turn cannot move/advance further in that turn. It's under the reinforcements section on the core rule book.
Good catch, almost missed that (it's in the sidebar? Come on GW.) Still, 9" isn't unheard of.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Yep, that's a really solid combo at the moment. Expensive, but good.
You'll want to bring a unit that can do well by itself, but I don't think any of our melee units "need" to be accompanied by Characters so much as they're just better whne they are. I'm thinking Praetorians are a good pick, since the redeploy + 10" move gives them a 1" charge if you go first, and only marginally longer if they go first and run away.
You think that's bad, add Zahndrekh and Obyron to the mix.
1- Set up Monolith and Deceiver on table. Stick Zahndrekh in Tomb World reserves. Stick Obyron somewhere out of sight on the table next to a particularly nasty unit (Scythe-guard?)
2- Grand Illusion the Deceiver and Monolith (plus 1 or 2 other units if you're lucky?) to the other side of the table.
3- Turn 1, Zahn steps out of Monolith and whistles for Obyron.
4- "Hello there."
(we can charge turn 1, right?)
Oh. Oh that's gross. Oh that's so good and gross.
We've done it, 8th edition Necrons. We've made what looks like a legit (if expensive) combo from Obyron, the Deceiver, and a Monolith. If only 7th could see us now...
That combo is hilarious. Seems really strong, really expensive(Just shy of 1300pts), but strong. Time will tell how good each unit needed for the combo is, but as it stands it's a good way to charge into combat on turn 1.
Now the question is warscythes or shields on the lytchguard.
Unit thoughts on Day 1 (or technically like Day -17)
Spoiler:
Named Characters
-Imotekh: Points up, statline up, combat up, shooting up. Abilities got better, the buff to Flayed Ones is way more usable than the old crappy DS one, and the Storm is much more reliable (and you can use the Command Point reroll on it if you need to). I think he may actually be worthwhile in this edition, especially if you’re going for some sort of Flayed One fun time.
-Zahndrekh: Points up, statline a bit up, abilites down, combat a bit up. Eh, situational now. If the meta turns into one where shutting off abilities with Counter-Tactics is strong, he’ll be an auto-include. But, for everything else, he’s a bit sub-par.
-Obyron: Points up, statline up, combat up. As a beatstick, he’s better, but you never really brought him to just wail on things. So… eh? Pass I think.
-Orikan: Points up, statline up, combat up. Abilities are better since he just gives units a 5++ in both shooting and melee, making him a strong buff to any unit he’s nearby. His melee statline makes him pretty scary to many things in the game, so he still fulfils the buffing beatstick profile that we like. Still worth taking. Stick him with Warscythe Lychguard or Flayed Ones for something truly brutal.
-Szeras: Points up, statline a bit up, shooting the same. Abilities are a bit bad, since they’re still random and he doesn’t hand out 5++ like other Crypteks. Still a decent shooting platform that can stick around Immortals or Warriors to give them 4+ RP and supplement their statlines, so… not all terrible? But still one of the lesser options imo.
-Anrakyr: Points up by 7 so basically unchanged. Shooting is the same, but his buffs are way better, able to turn any unit into a decent beatstick or just give the general Overlord buff to any unit. Gained an Invuln! Actually quite good now - buffs things, fights well, and can potentially blast a vehicle or monster with his Arrow. Good choice!
-Trazyn: Not even gonna write about him. He was bad in 7th, he’s worse now somehow. Pass, unless you really want a fluffy army.
HQ -Overlord: A bit more expensive, but not by much. Now has a solid buff, and the Staff of Light is decent in melee, so even without a Warscythe he’s a good beatstick. Warscythe is better, of course. Res Orbs have amazing troll potential.
-Lord: Eehhh… I dunno yet. The reroll isn’t that big since we’re all LD10, but can be useful. Another Res Orb holder. His statline is ok but nothing amazing. Not an auto-take but I can see one being ok.
-Cryptek: Very good. Very good indeed. Points only up a bit compared to before, but affects multiple units, so it’s ok. Statline is actually better since he’s not garbage in combat anymore. There should be at least one of these in every list, I’m thinking.
-CCB: Good and bad. Price is about the same, durability is different from before but maybe worse overall? But now can hide behind units. Probably best to stick with Praetorians since he can buff them while they bodyguard him, but Wraiths work too. Pretty good fighty unit I think, will see some on the table but not overbearing since you can’t get 2+ and what not.
-Destroyer Lord: Slightly more expensive, and serves different roles now. Still a decent beatstick, but now also can be used as a bodyguard/buffbot for Destroyer units as well. Maybe not as good as before, but it’ll depend on how Destroyer armies look.
Troops
-Warriors: Cheaper, with better guns? What’s the catch? Well, not as durable by themselves, but a big blob backed up by Crypteks, Ghost Arks, and Res Orbs is even harder to kill than before. These are great. Take 15-20 and have fun.
-Immortals: A bit pricier now, but dang their guns are good. Either Rend -2 or a crapton of shots. And Tesla can proc on a 5+ if you’re with an Overlord! I think 10+ units of Tesla are good for the buff, but 5 man units of Gauss will be really strong MSU units. Very good options.
Transport
-Ghost Ark: A bit underwhelming, but adds resiliency to Warriors. Shooting is pretty good now that you can use both Flayer Arrays on a single target, getting 10-20 shots in one go. Fast now, too, so you can get Warriors and Ark alike up field and laying down fire quickly. Can potentially get plinked down by mid-range shooting, so watch out for that.
Fast Attack
-Tomb Blades: Bloody expensive now, but got lots of nice boosts. 2 Wounds is good, higher speed is good, double the shots for Gauss, 4x the shots for Tesla. Can hang around with a CCB for Res Orb shenanigans. Their use now might be more for high-damage flanking, since they’re likely to just die. But they’re a bit expensive for suicide runs, so take that with caution.
-Destroyers: Also expensive now, 150% the old price, but with an extra wound and a lot of speed. No more JSJ (though that seems gone in general). Cannons are great - will eat multi-wound models for breakfast and are a great way to chew down big monsters/vehicles. Much more elite than previously, but can be great if you’re against other elite armies with their speed and damage.
-Wraiths: Whoo boy. Even more durable than before (though no more Harvest for RP), just as fast. Cheaper? Wow. Damage is different now - harder to wound things on a 2, but also harder to be forced into wounding on 6s. AP -1 is different from rending - more reliable overall, but less swingy. I think they’re great if you still want to take 18. Beamers are decent now since you can actually shoot them decently, though they don’t straight remove models. MWs are always cool though. Whip Coils seem… eh? Attacking before dying is nice but save the points unless you’ve got nothing better to put them on.
-Scarabs: Pretty buffed, now will be doing 3+ to hit and 5+ to wound at a minimum on every target. And cheaper now, so a big swarm isn’t as costly. Can make a great tarpit unit, and can grab that 5+ in cover.
Flyers
-Night Scythe: Points up, shooting is better. Durability is different. No longer safe behind “Snapshoot only”, now can be plinked down over turns. But high Wound count and 3+ makes it still relatively safe. Invasion Beams got a bit more flexibility, since you can “transport” multiple units and drop which one you need. Some tactics here.
-Doom Scythe: Got a lot more expensive, but the shooting is way better and more reliable. Much like the Night Scythe, starting on the board is great since you get it for the full game, and no more facings means that the Death Ray is going to be laying down the hurt against many units, all the time. Just be careful to not run off the board.
Elite
-Praetorians: A smidge more expensive, but a better statline other than being slightly slower. Rods are still good shooting, but either weapon is good in melee. I think these guys are pretty legit.
-Lychguard: Slight point jump, but have a lot of synergies with characters and got another wound. Shields are worse, but coming back with full wounds from RP sorta makes up for it. Both weapons are solid in melee, though Warscythes are obviously better.
-Flayed Ones: A fair sight more expensive, but now they can reliably use reserves, have synergies, and can bring back lost models. Yeah, worth it. Just as good against most infantry, a bit better against harder targets with the new wound chart.
-Deathmarks: Super good. Bumped up by a minor cost per model, but worth it. Traded wounding on 2+ out of reserves and Sniper for reliable Reserves and MWs on 6s, still can Intercept units, and can pick out Characters. Overall less killy than before, unless you roll hot on 6s, but the reliability more than makes up for it.
-Stalker: A big old brick now. Went up a fair amount in points, but is very hard to pop now and is way faster (10” until it gets hurt!). Still buffs shooting, and the melee profile got better with an actual AP value now and d3 damage. We’ll be seeing these aplenty.
-C’tan Deceiver: Powers got buffed, which is huge. Redeploy went from “in your deployment zone” to “give him and d3 units Infiltrate”, which is extremely dope. And an extremely good melee profile. And cheaper. And a Character so can hide behind models. Literally what is not to love? This guy rocks!
-C’tan Nightbringer: Trades the Deceiver’s tricky deployment for a beastly shooting and melee profile. Yeah, worthwhile. Once this guy gets into the enemy’s lines, he’s just going to take things apart.
Heavy Support
-Spyders: A bit middling. Up in points, statline went up to match. Repair is actually worthwhile now that vehicles have something between “full health” and “dead”. Gloom Prisms being straight Deny attempts is better than before. So a decent support unit, especially if you’re using Scarabs, but I’m not huge on them until I see them in action. Pass on the gun.
-Doomsday Arks: The sauce. Reasonable jump in points, but now way better survivability and more reliable shooting. With the new Deep Strike rules, it’s easy to protect against Drop Pods and the like, and Quantum Shielding protects against long range multi-damage things like Lascannons. Can get chipped down, but better overall and one of our better anti-heavy options.
-Annihilation Barges: Expensive and fairly fragile, but they put out a lot of shooting. Not too hot on them just yet, but time will tell. I think they might cost a bit much and we already have a lot of anti-infantry and weight of fire.
-Monoliths: 1000% improved. Deep Striking? Mass firepower? Utility? Yeah, this brick rocks. And good luck tying it down since it Flys for retreat and shoot. Lots of good AP shots plus a solid frame.
-Heavy Destroyers: Expensive, but once again one of our best mobile anti-heavy platforms. Not the only option with the improved Doom Scythe and Doomsday Ark, but still good. Range and speed, plus built in rerolls and a 2+ when standing in cover is solid. The price makes spamming them even harder than before, but multi-damage shooting is a bit scarce in our force so it might be worthwhile.
Lord of War
-Tesseract Vault: Up in price, up in durability sorta? All powers + spheres means this thing is going to put out a lot of hurt. Still, a quarter of your army in “regular” sized games is… wow.
-Obelisk: Slightly more expensive than a Monolith, for way more shots that hit better, but also no AP. Decent MW output if your opponent is spamming Flyers, but overall seems a bit disappointing. The reliable Reserves is nice, I suppose, but mine will probably not hit the table any time soon.
Very happy overall. Can't wait to put builds together.
Punisher wrote: That combo is hilarious. Seems really strong, really expensive(Just shy of 1300pts), but strong. Time will tell how good each unit needed for the combo is, but as it stands it's a good way to charge into combat on turn 1.
Now the question is warscythes or shields on the lytchguard.
Warscythes, obviously.
You want anything they hit to not be standing after that alpha strike (Zahn+Monolith+C'tan+whatever else he might be able to bring shooting, combined with 11 charging Warscythes... that BETTER be enough to cause significant first turn damage to cripple their army!)
But just to confirm, would the Deceiver Bomb™ work with Lychguard? (would they be able to charge turn 1?)
Even after having Ghostwalked over from the other side of the table with Obyron?
(thought I saw something about things not being able to charge after teleporting or something)
Ya they act normally after they port, they just can't move/advance further. They are allowed to charge/shoot normally.
BTW, the monolith should be able to fire all it's weapons at the same target regardless of the hover rule. There is nothing in the rules now that state a weapon has a firing arc. You can shoot behind yourself with hull mounted weapons that don't turn now.
Also I was wondering if anyone knew how the Command Barge worked now. Looks confusing to me, it states that it is commanded by an overlord and then it states that the overlord has x wargear and the barge has y wargear. Are they considered separate models? Do they both attack in Close Combat(since vehicles now can attack)?
Punisher wrote: Ya they act normally after they port, they just can't move/advance further. They are allowed to charge/shoot normally.
BTW, the monolith should be able to fire all it's weapons at the same target regardless of the hover rule. There is nothing in the rules now that state a weapon has a firing arc. You can shoot behind yourself with hull mounted weapons that don't turn now.
Also I was wondering if anyone knew how the Command Barge worked now. Looks confusing to me, it states that it is commanded by an overlord and then it states that the overlord has x wargear and the barge has y wargear. Are they considered separate models? Do they both attack in Close Combat(since vehicles now can attack)?
It's one model with one profile. The description just notes them as "mount" and "rider" like Cavalry.
You could probably do it with just the Deceiver and Scythe-Guard, plus either Zahndrekh+Obyron or the Monolith (... but I was going for maximum ridiculousness).
I wonder if it's possible to figure out a genuinely good first turn combo with these things, though.
Grand Illusion sets the first stuff up 12" away, so there's our base number.
With all of them in play the Scythe-Guard would be right next to anything they wanted to be next to (12" - 3" (for Zahn Monolith disembark) - 6" (for near Zahn) = 3" charge)
Problem is it costs 1237 points... so pure ridiculous.
With Deceiver+Zahn+Oby+LG they would be 6" away for 856... but they'd be missing all that firepower from the Monolith (though you still might be able to bring something else along to shoot if the Grand Illusion roll was 2 or 3)
With Deceiver+Mono+LG they would be 9" away for 906. They'd have a lot of support from the Monolith for the difference of only one less Warscythe and Staff of Light... but a 9" charge is a little more risky.
You could instead substitute the Monolith for a Night Scythe - they start on the board and set up units the same distance away as the Monolith, for around half the cost. So you can do 1030 for 10 Scytheguard + Obyron + Zahndrekh + Scythe + Deciever.
Less shooty and more fragile (other than the -1 to hit). Also starting a Scythe on the board is a good chance at getting killed early or forced into a corner and die, so careful of that.
So getting my math hammer on making a sheet to tell you how points efficent various units are against various targets. Still a work in progress, but here is a few units against MeQ:
as expected our leaders are not very efficient at killing marines, part of that whole anti-deathstar thing I imagine. Also unsurprising, immortals are our best unit for killing MeQ. Tomb Blades are solid, but not quite the bargain they were in 7th ed.
When it's finished you can just put in the targets toughness, wounds, save and invulnerable save and it will tell you how good every necron unit is at killing that unit.
skoffs wrote: You could probably do it with just the Deceiver and Scythe-Guard, plus either Zahndrekh+Obyron or the Monolith (... but I was going for maximum ridiculousness).
I wonder if it's possible to figure out a genuinely good first turn combo with these things, though.
Grand Illusion sets the first stuff up 12" away, so there's our base number.
With all of them in play the Scythe-Guard would be right next to anything they wanted to be next to (12" - 3" (for Zahn Monolith disembark) - 6" (for near Zahn) = 3" charge)
Problem is it costs 1237 points... so pure ridiculous.
With Deceiver+Zahn+Oby+LG they would be 6" away for 856... but they'd be missing all that firepower from the Monolith (though you still might be able to bring something else along to shoot if the Grand Illusion roll was 2 or 3)
With Deceiver+Mono+LG they would be 9" away for 906. They'd have a lot of support from the Monolith for the difference of only one less Warscythe and Staff of Light... but a 9" charge is a little more risky.
Is there a good way to do this?
I feel the monolith is necessary. Without it theyre stranded, and the rest of our CC isn't going to catch up in a hurry. Monolith provides a brick wall for rest of army, then you can start rolling out flayed ones etc.
If you're using Monoliths or Night Scythes for Tomb World shenanigans, bring multiple. Because the game that you decide to put multiple units on the Tomb World is the one where all dice go wrong and your Monolith dies on turn 2.
Requizen wrote: You could instead substitute the Monolith for a Night Scythe - they start on the board and set up units the same distance away as the Monolith, for around half the cost. So you can do 1030 for 10 Scytheguard + Obyron + Zahndrekh + Scythe + Deciever.
Whoa whoa whoa,
Flyers can start on the table now?
Guess I should probably look through the rules.
As great as a discount would be to do effectively the same thing, if you go the NS route it's a kamikaze mission. Everyone's gonna be stranded there with no backup until the rest of your army catches up.
With the Monolith you've got a significant distraction Carnifex that's actually contributing quite a lot to the havoc around it. Yeah, the Scythe-Guard are going to be doing most of the damage, but the shooting beforehand from those three is going to be intense!
Gonna need to do some math to figure out exactly what kind of damage the Deceiver Bomb (D-Bomb for short) is capable of putting out, and whether it would be enough of an alpha strike to genuinely consider using.
Requizen wrote: You could instead substitute the Monolith for a Night Scythe - they start on the board and set up units the same distance away as the Monolith, for around half the cost. So you can do 1030 for 10 Scytheguard + Obyron + Zahndrekh + Scythe + Deciever.
Whoa whoa whoa,
Flyers can start on the table now?
Guess I should probably look through the rules.
As great as a discount would be to do effectively the same thing, if you go the NS route it's a kamikaze mission. Everyone's gonna be stranded there with no backup until the rest of your army catches up.
With the Monolith you've got a significant distraction Carnifex that's actually contributing quite a lot to the havoc around it. Yeah, the Scythe-Guard are going to be doing most of the damage, but the shooting beforehand from those three is going to be intense!
Gonna need to do some math to figure out exactly what kind of damage the Deceiver Bomb (D-Bomb for short) is capable of putting out, and whether it would be enough of an alpha strike to genuinely consider using.
You can all in on it by also finding a way to get Anrakyr in there (TWO MONOLITHS?) for that sweet +1 Attack.
Yeah I agree that the Monolith is probably the way to go. You definitely want the staying power and damage output, I was just addressing the price.
The lists I'm delving into will be Silver Tide, personally. I wonder how hard it would be to fill out a Brigade in 2000 points for +9(!!!) Command Points. Probably pretty hard.
Shooting:
12x S5 AP-2 1D
6x S8 AP-2 1-3D
3x S5 AP-2 1D
+ 1-3 Mort.W
+ whatever else comes with the Grand Illusion
Melee:
*34x S7 AP-4 2D
I don't know how to mathhammer, so someone else is going to have to figure out probability with BS and WS differences between all the units involved.
Does look like a metric crap ton of potential damage for a first turn delivery, though.
*it'd be amazing if Anrakyr could give them +1 attack and MWBD before Obyron whisks them away, but that'd be a 3rd HQ in an already plenty ridiculous setup.
Honestly the only real problem I see with using night scythes to drop Lychguard into combat turn 1 is that you can't have a character follow them because it isn't a real transport.
Edit: Turn 2 actually, but still.
It's weird catapulting bodyguards into the foe without their charge.
Created a Google sheet so you can play around with different target profiles and figure out what units are good or not. Flayed ones are wrong, but it wasn't worth the effort to fix them,
Tesla continues to be disappointing, The humble immortal is the hardest hitting mofo in the necron army per point, at least against MEQ. Our vehicles are awkward, aside from the monolith they aren't tough, and their weapon profiles are hard to squeeze into a solid strategy, mostly because they still haven't figured out a way to make tesla good yet. In the calcs I assumed that vehicles can still spin like a top to fire weapons from all arks, which is dumb, but appears to be RAW.
Just add it to your google drive and then go nuts, maybe we can get a head start on figuring out our meta.
*edit* added a few tabs for common enemy configs in case you don't want to bring it into your drive
The good:
- Scythe guard are great, especially with the movement options of the deceiver, monolith, and nightscythe.
- both named C'tan are great! Plus they can hide behind other units.
- warriors and immortals are anti-infantry lawnmowers.
- destroyer lords are great.
- crypteks are now must takes.
- all the canoptek choices are good.
- monoliths if use are making use of their reserve abilities.
The bad:
- annihilation barges, very fragile and quite pricey.
- lords, no idea what use they will be for the cost.
- destroyers, so expensive and poor damage output.
- lords of war still blow.
The ugly:
- our anti tank. Doomscythes, heavy destroyers, and doomsday arks, all perform the duty just very expensive point wise. Necessary picks in almost any list just a tough tax to swallow.
- Praetorians, fast durable and decent at shooting and CC. They're also fearless thus very independent. But that general use is also a weakness to specialist units.
- deathmarks are still decent just low damage output.
- monoliths in a list not optimized for their use since they are so expensive.
- tomb blades. Got a durability and firepower boost but darn are they expensive. Can't think of a great use yet (msu or blob).
The AP we get from phasing out the gauss rule is kind of a huge deal, immortals specifically are point for point i think the strongest infantry in the game right now when it comes to medium to short range fire fights.
My worry though is that's about all necrons have going for them. All our quirky specialized units feel like point traps, the borderline promising tomb blades, preatorians, and lychguard are also all the 2w models that will attract every plasma gun and missile launcher shot which keeps me from being too optimistic about them. Mobility and high strength/high damage weapons are both incredibly expensive which means we aren't great at getting to that ideal range against longer range shooting armies and we aren't great at stopping big mean transports/MCs from dumping assaults on us.
Feels like necrons will excel at any traditional 'fair' fight where 2 armies squat in cover on objectives ~24" away from each other but will be pretty easy to play around for more specialized armies. I don't think i'd have fun running the turn 1 assault gimmick even if it isn't quickly FAQ'd away, which it almost certainly will be.
Grimgold wrote: So getting my math hammer on making a sheet to tell you how points efficent various units are against various targets. Still a work in progress, but here is a few units against MeQ:
as expected our leaders are not very efficient at killing marines, part of that whole anti-deathstar thing I imagine. Also unsurprising, immortals are our best unit for killing MeQ. Tomb Blades are solid, but not quite the bargain they were in 7th ed.
When it's finished you can just put in the targets toughness, wounds, save and invulnerable save and it will tell you how good every necron unit is at killing that unit.
So if I am reading this correct, scarabs are solid against MEQ and are going to be awesome against high T models.
I decided that Grimgold did some excellent mathhammer earlier, so I've made the chart below for our shooty infantry:
This is the points per wound for each unit against the target at the top (where Wx means any number of wounds greater than 3). I've done it against what I think should be fairly common profiles: GEQ, Orks, Necron Warriors, MEQ, Primaris, Terminators (no invuln though, foolishly), Plague marines, etc. I missed off the gauss flayer arrays for the Doomsday Ark as I felt they'd often be out of range or targeting other things. Still, there's a few takeaways from it:
1) Heavy destroyers are, point for point, the best all around anti-tank unit we have. Seemed fairly obvious, but it's now here in black and white.
2) Annihilation barges are quite good fire bases. I modelled them as moving with a gauss cannon, so 153 points and -1 to hit for the gauss, and they're pretty good, usually a little better than Immortals. I think I'm actually sold on them being pretty good on this basis.
3) Deathmarks are bad on paper. Sure, they can snipe out characters, but the chance they actually kill one is pretty slim. I dunno, maybe deep striking and sniping make up for their shortcomings, but they seem pretty mediocre.
4) Destroyers are almost as point efficient as a death ray on its own. That surprised me quite a lot actually, I'd pretty much written them off against vehicles, but it turns out that high rend really helps them. I dunno, maybe I'll try them out.
5) Doom Scythes are quite good all rounders due to their mix of guns.
6) The Triarch Stalker isn't entirely fairly treated as I haven't accounted for the melta rule at half range. On this basis, it's the worst AT, but realistically you're more taking it for the unit buff anyway. The fact it degrades is absurd though - it's not good to begin with!
7) Immortals are fantastic. Tesla easily outguns Gauss between 12"-24", so the question becomes what range you think you'll be engaging at instead of one being superior. Either way, the question is now mass Warrior bodies for survivability or generally better Immortals?
Eyjio wrote: I decided that Grimgold did some excellent mathhammer earlier, so I've made the chart below for our shooty infantry: This is the points per wound for each unit against the target at the top (where Wx means any number of wounds greater than 3). I've done it against what I think should be fairly common profiles: GEQ, Orks, Necron Warriors, MEQ, Primaris, Terminators (no invuln though, foolishly), Plague marines, etc. I missed off the gauss flayer arrays for the Doomsday Ark as I felt they'd often be out of range or targeting other things. Still, there's a few takeaways from it:
1) Heavy destroyers are, point for point, the best all around anti-tank unit we have. Seemed fairly obvious, but it's now here in black and white. 2) Annihilation barges are quite good fire bases. I modelled them as moving with a gauss cannon, so 153 points and -1 to hit for the gauss, and they're pretty good, usually a little better than Immortals. I think I'm actually sold on them being pretty good on this basis. 3) Deathmarks are bad on paper. Sure, they can snipe out characters, but the chance they actually kill one is pretty slim. I dunno, maybe deep striking and sniping make up for their shortcomings, but they seem pretty mediocre. 4) Destroyers are almost as point efficient as a death ray on its own. That surprised me quite a lot actually, I'd pretty much written them off against vehicles, but it turns out that high rend really helps them. I dunno, maybe I'll try them out. 5) Doom Scythes are quite good all rounders due to their mix of guns. 6) The Triarch Stalker isn't entirely fairly treated as I haven't accounted for the melta rule at half range. On this basis, it's the worst AT, but realistically you're more taking it for the unit buff anyway. The fact it degrades is absurd though - it's not good to begin with! 7) Immortals are fantastic. Tesla easily outguns Gauss between 12"-24", so the question becomes what range you think you'll be engaging at instead of one being superior. Either way, the question is now mass Warrior bodies for survivability or generally better Immortals?
I like that The colors make it really clear, so up next is effective hit points, which means I'll need to model quantum shielding, once that's done we can figure out our four quadrant map of our units.
- our anti tank. Doomscythes, heavy destroyers, and doomsday arks, all perform the duty just very expensive point wise. Necessary picks in almost any list just a tough tax to swallow.
Keep in mind everyone's anti-tank is more expensive, now. HYMP Sides, for instances, are over 200 points a pop. It's by design, to make MCs and Tanks more overall resilient and competitive for the points sink.
I'd like to point out Forge World might do a great job of plugging our tactical holes.
Acanthrites bring jump troops who all carry a Melta weapon, plus the sentry pylons and the tomb stalker/sentinel, the latter of which has a huge exile gun.
Hell, the Pylon might even be our chance at a truly great Lord of War unit.
Yeah but we'll have to wait a few months to get our FW rules.
Wondering if our Elite, Heavy, or Fast Attack slots are good enough to spam in their respective Detachments, or if sticking to the CAD (Battalion) is still best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh wait, Doom Scythes have to move and Death Rays are Heavy. Eeehhhhh... That sucks a bit but still a good gun.
Requizen wrote: Yeah but we'll have to wait a few months to get our FW rules.
Wondering if our Elite, Heavy, or Fast Attack slots are good enough to spam in their respective Detachments, or if sticking to the CAD (Battalion) is still best.
Well I have a pure destroyer cult 2000 point list from 7th, so I'm fielding that whether it's actually good or not.
I have 18 regular, 12 heavy and 2 lords to work with.
Most of this is insulting, knowing what we do, now.
Anrakyr may very well be one of the best HQ, but saying his best ability is the one that comes standard on all Overlords?
Requizen wrote: Wondering if our Elite, Heavy, or Fast Attack slots are good enough to spam in their respective Detachments, or if sticking to the CAD (Battalion) is still best.
Well I have a pure destroyer cult 2000 point list from 7th, so I'm fielding that whether it's actually good or not.
I have 18 regular, 12 heavy and 2 lords to work with.
Most of this is insulting, knowing what we do, now.
Anrakyr may very well be one of the best HQ, but saying his best ability is the one that comes standard on all Overlords?
Requizen wrote: Wondering if our Elite, Heavy, or Fast Attack slots are good enough to spam in their respective Detachments, or if sticking to the CAD (Battalion) is still best.
Well I have a pure destroyer cult 2000 point list from 7th, so I'm fielding that whether it's actually good or not.
I have 18 regular, 12 heavy and 2 lords to work with.
What (if any) force org would that combine into?
Originally it was 2 destroyer cults each consisting of a Destroyer Lord, 3 units of 3 destroyers and 1 heavy, plus one unit of three heavies. The only difference was wargear on the two lords.
Now? Either The fast attack based FOC or one fast attack FOC and one heavy support FOC depending on exact layout of the force.
Give the price hike I'd need a 3000 point game to fit them all, so some stripping down will be needed.
I'm glad that people are fiddling with the Deceiver combo!
Night Scythes were promising, for providing more fire support. Load 10 GB Immortals and a Cryptek into each one and -- alas, they don't count as embarking, so the Immortals and Crypteks can't come out at the same time. They also have to wait until Turn 2 to hop out, if they want to be in range. Annoying, but perhaps one can live without Crypteks? One unit could also come through the Monolith on Turn 2, if the Night Scythe can't get into range or is needed elsewhere on the board.
Another idea I had was to Advance up the board with Immortals carrying carbines instead of blasters, and Overlords instead of Crypteks. 2x10 Immortals advancing while each benefiting from "My Will Be Done," giving them +1 to Advance and their hit rolls.
Tesla Carbines can fire after Advancing (with a penalty, I believe, which is negated by MWBD) and depending on how the +1 to hit is meant to be interpreted, trigger their Tesla on a 5+. (Edit: they wouldn't be able to trigger it on a 5+ in the same turn they Advanced, as the penalty and bonus would cancel each other out.)
These units would be able to close the gap fairly quickly, perhaps in a turn or two, without really being that vulnerable; if the enemy is pointing weapons at your Immortals, they aren't pointing them at the melee thing you've spent so much getting into their deployment zone.
--
Destroyers are certainly good, but I feel that they cost too much for their expected role of Infantry and light vehicle munching, which the Deceiver slingshot is already quite happy to do. Heavy Destroyers cost more, obviously, but they provide higher Strength shooting for tougher vehicles, MCs, and so on. Whichever one chooses, they have a 10" move, and can provide support to the slingshot in short order.
I feel the same about Tomb Blades, though I'm also biased against them because... I think they look silly. I never liked the Decurion, anyway!
I might have to stop making fun of quantum shielding, because it's actually not bad. Admittedly it's a perverse incentive like 7th ed grav, where the opponent is punished for having a good stat, so I think it's poor game design but I'll take what I can get. so here is the google sheet.
My personal favorite wtf comparison, a ghost ark having more effective wounds than a monolith because of quantum shielding:
We for all intents and purposes have holtzman shields from dune, the slow knife penetrates and all of that.
Eyjio wrote: I decided that Grimgold did some excellent mathhammer earlier, so I've made the chart below for our shooty infantry:
This is the points per wound for each unit against the target at the top (where Wx means any number of wounds greater than 3). I've done it against what I think should be fairly common profiles: GEQ, Orks, Necron Warriors, MEQ, Primaris, Terminators (no invuln though, foolishly), Plague marines, etc. I missed off the gauss flayer arrays for the Doomsday Ark as I felt they'd often be out of range or targeting other things. Still, there's a few takeaways from it:
1) Heavy destroyers are, point for point, the best all around anti-tank unit we have. Seemed fairly obvious, but it's now here in black and white.
2) Annihilation barges are quite good fire bases. I modelled them as moving with a gauss cannon, so 153 points and -1 to hit for the gauss, and they're pretty good, usually a little better than Immortals. I think I'm actually sold on them being pretty good on this basis.
3) Deathmarks are bad on paper. Sure, they can snipe out characters, but the chance they actually kill one is pretty slim. I dunno, maybe deep striking and sniping make up for their shortcomings, but they seem pretty mediocre.
4) Destroyers are almost as point efficient as a death ray on its own. That surprised me quite a lot actually, I'd pretty much written them off against vehicles, but it turns out that high rend really helps them. I dunno, maybe I'll try them out.
5) Doom Scythes are quite good all rounders due to their mix of guns.
6) The Triarch Stalker isn't entirely fairly treated as I haven't accounted for the melta rule at half range. On this basis, it's the worst AT, but realistically you're more taking it for the unit buff anyway. The fact it degrades is absurd though - it's not good to begin with!
7) Immortals are fantastic. Tesla easily outguns Gauss between 12"-24", so the question becomes what range you think you'll be engaging at instead of one being superior. Either way, the question is now mass Warrior bodies for survivability or generally better Immortals?
I like that The colors make it really clear, so up next is effective hit points, which means I'll need to model quantum shielding, once that's done we can figure out our four quadrant map of our units.
Thanks for this guys! Any chance we can see the damage output of a Monolith?
Grimgold wrote:I might have to stop making fun of quantum shielding, because it's actually not bad. Admittedly it's a perverse incentive like 7th ed grav, where the opponent is punished for having a good stat, so I think it's poor game design but I'll take what I can get. so here is the google sheet.
My personal favorite wtf comparison, a ghost ark having more effective wounds than a monolith because of quantum shielding:
We for all intents and purposes have holtzman shields from dune, the slow knife penetrates and all of that.
Fixed per draco, added rounds to kill.
Does this take into account Living Metal Grim? Wraiths are the most durable unit we have still?
This assumes all damage is done in one round. Living metal and repair protocols are hard to factor in because it forces it over multiple rounds, so think of it as a worst case scenario.
as for wraiths being the toughest, lychguard used to be tougher with old repair protocols and a 3++, but with both of those gone away, yeah wraiths all the way.
Punisher wrote: Bargelord isn't a character. Why do people keep thinking it is? No where in its stats does it say it's a character.
Oh you're totally right. That... Sucks. Pass.
good catch, I wonder why they did that. Annoying. Was shaping up to be a good unit. Maybe we can ask, they might have made a mistake?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimgold wrote: This assumes all damage is done in one round. Living metal and repair protocols are hard to factor in because it forces it over multiple rounds, so think of it as a worst case scenario.
as for wraiths being the toughest, lychguard used to be tougher with old repair protocols and a 3++, but with both of those gone away, yeah wraiths all the way.
It says wraiths have 4w, but they only have 3, was this just a misprint or were they calculated @ 4?
great job though, puts a good perspective on things.
taetrius67 wrote: Someone said no more allied renegad knight with necrons but what prevent to take the formation with one lord of war ? Or i have miss something.
In the leaked photos I found under Matched play - Choose armies, each unit in the ARMY must have at least one of the same faction keyword(s), unless unaligned.
The Renegade Knights are Chaos and Questor Traitoris Faction, neither which fits Necron or any of the <dynasty> keywords Necrons have.
Which sucks, I bought the full Renegade knight box kit just for my Daemonkin and Necrons to have one each.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm more excited about not only the Staff Of Light doing stuff in melee, but the Stormlord actually kicking ass in melee as well.
Yea its nice that it can do that now and were not forced to take warscythes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a whole though, how nice is it to be able to build any list that comes into your head, without the boring restrictions of the decurion.
Want fast crons? take the Fast Attack detachment.
Want big guns? take the Heavy detachment.
Want lots of CC death? take the Elite detachment.
The plethora of options we now have is tremendous.
I've been lurking this forum for months and finally joined just to ask...
Does anyone have good ideas on how to move around Anrakyr? I want to make a Flayed Ones list with him but I'm a bit puzzled on how to move him around the battlefield; he doesn't have a <Dynasty> tag so you can't move him with any of our transports. I'm guessing the Deceiver is the best option? DS the Flayed Ones normally and use the Deceiver to drop Anrakyr next to them?
Well, I've seen the first army lists in the corresponding section of the board. Not really convincing if you ask me.
What are our strengths now?
Firepower using Gauss or Tesla or a combination of both.
Fast movement using flyers or the Monolith for teleport.
Durability using RP.
Close combat using Wraiths and whatnot.
Arachnofiend wrote: I've been lurking this forum for months and finally joined just to ask...
Does anyone have good ideas on how to move around Anrakyr? I want to make a Flayed Ones list with him but I'm a bit puzzled on how to move him around the battlefield; he doesn't have a <Dynasty> tag so you can't move him with any of our transports. I'm guessing the Deceiver is the best option? DS the Flayed Ones normally and use the Deceiver to drop Anrakyr next to them?
Right now looks like that, the Deceiver is the only way until Anrakyr gets a Dynasty in a book, if any. It's a pain, but it makes sense fluff-wise.
Off topic - I'm holding on a Praetorians/Lychguard box, and I'm not sure what to build... both models look really good opinions?
wuestenfux wrote:Well, I've seen the first army lists in the corresponding section of the board. Not really convincing if you ask me.
What are our strengths now?
Firepower using Gauss or Tesla or a combination of both.
Fast movement using flyers or the Monolith for teleport.
Durability using RP.
Close combat using Wraiths and whatnot.
Our CC is beastly, albeit pretty expensive, max flayed ones is 420 points, but all our vehicles, the things needed to kill the big stuff (they have all our big guns) are super durable now, look through the graphs before, they will last, and put out lots of hurt.
Klowny wrote: Want fast crons? take the Fast Attack detachment.
Want big guns? take the Heavy detachment.
Want lots of CC death? take the Elite detachment.
The plethora of options we now have is tremendous.
Thing is, what do those detachments give you?
Command points? Special detachment rules don't seem to exist anymore.
Elites have most of our CC, so if you want to go CC heavy you use that, without as much infantry tax.
All our big guns will be in Heavy, so taking a heavy detachment means you can field crons much more eaisly. 7th meant you needed formations that were cost prohibitive, a decurion when you didnt want it, and even a CAD was a tax in many ways. Now you can try out as much of our army as you want. Weve always been the jack of all trades, so why not explore them.
Everyone gets 3 command points minimum, affecting rerolls can be big, but even if we dont get many extra, can still do heaps of cool stuff.
Not all matched play games have to be competitive, theres a whole new meta out there to explore frands, lets go test it out!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im interested in seeing what the 7th ed power builds will fare like. Build a reclamation legion and D-cult (disgustingly expensive now)/canoptek harvest.
Would be cool to see how it fared (maybe terribly?)
Twin heavy Gauss seems to be the best fit for the stalker now. It's only 10pts more than the meltas and I think it's worth it for the extra range. QSheilding is best at long range where massed dakka is less likely to reach it, and you will have more targets in range to apply its buff against.
Seems like a good choice to combine with the Doomsday Ark for two QS tanks that can sit at range and work on high T targets.
EDIT: Don't know if this was covered in peoples mathammer but 10 Tesla Immortals buffed by "my will be done" will put an average of 20 wounds on T4 models (more with stalker buff) ouch.
I'm growing increasingly worried about genestealers, and I think people are sleeping on mass genestealer armies. They're quite ridiculous - at 12 points, the same as a Necron warrior, you get 3 S4 AP-1 attacks which are AP-4 on 6's. They get +1 attacks if the unit is more than 10 models (they 100% always will be). They move 8" and can charge after advancing, meaning they're a threat to anything within 8"+3D6". They have 5++ and are troops, so can be spammed en masse very easily. Broodlords give them +1 to hit and are psykers.
To be blunt, they're utterly crazy. If you think Immortals are good (they are, in fairness) then just run some calculations against these guys. If they get 20 models into combat (okay, not that likely but still) even unbuffed they will wipe a full Necron Warrior unit in one round. Against a T8 3+, a unit of 20 does 8.89 wounds per round. For 720 points, Tyranid players can field 60 of these guys and not even feel slightly bad about it. How on Earth do we deal with them? Maybe that's why Frankie said in his faction focus he runs 60+ warriors; you simply need that many to stand a chance against hordes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Twin heavy Gauss seems to be the best fit for the stalker now. It's only 10pts more than the meltas and I think it's worth it for the extra range. QSheilding is best at long range where massed dakka is less likely to reach it, and you will have more targets in range to apply its buff against.
Seems like a good choice to combine with the Doomsday Ark for two QS tanks that can sit at range and work on high T targets.
EDIT: Don't know if this was covered in peoples mathammer but 10 Tesla Immortals buffed by "my will be done" will put an average of 20 wounds on T4 models (more with stalker buff) ouch.
They are 181 points though. For 150, you can get 2 Heavy Destroyers which, whilst weaker, are better shots. I agree that the best gun is either Heat Ray or THGC though, I've just not made up my mind as to which is better.
Not sure how you're getting that for 10 tesla Immortals. 20 shots, average of 7/6 hits each (4/6 to score 1 hit + 1/6 to score 3 = 7/6), wounding on 3+ is ~15.56 wounds by my calculation.
Previously a cool combo was sticking him with Destroyers to give them borderline auto hits.
Now it appears it just hands out a nerfed version of the old Preferred Enemy, rerolling ones to hit at things he himself already shot at that turn.
So, what then, is it good for in 8th?
I guess if something that has been blessed with MWBD to give +1 to hit that'll be good... so long as it was already hitting on 3+.
Accompanying our heavy gun vehicles? It's not much, but it might help.
Basically, how vital are they now to the Necron army list?
Nids sound terrifying for a variety of reasons. Scarab meat sheilds might help.
@Skoffs, I had this at the bottom of the last page:
Twin heavy Gauss seems to be the best fit for the stalker now. It's only 10pts more than the meltas and I think it's worth it for the extra range. QSheilding is best at long range where massed dakka is less likely to reach it, and you will have more targets in range to apply its buff against.
Seems like a good choice to combine with the Doomsday Ark for two QS tanks that can sit at range and work on high T targets.
EDIT: We have an unfortunate shortage of lascannon equivalent guns so it's worth considering for that alone.
I just made a Decurion, fits perfectly in 2000 points. Has a canoptek harvest and a full D-cult. Actually not a bad list. Not optimised, but looks fun.
Its in the army list page if you want to have a squiz
skoffs wrote: Alright, guys, what's the Stalker for, now?
Previously a cool combo was sticking him with Destroyers to give them borderline auto hits.
Now it appears it just hands out a nerfed version of the old Preferred Enemy, rerolling ones to hit at things he himself already shot at that turn.
So, what then, is it good for in 8th?
I guess if something that has been blessed with MWBD to give +1 to hit that'll be good... so long as it was already hitting on 3+.
Accompanying our heavy gun vehicles? It's not much, but it might help.
Basically, how vital are they now to the Necron army list?
Well, the reroll on 1's is quite good against vehicles now that they're so much more durable. A T7 W10 3+ vehicle VS Gauss Immortals needs 10/((2/3)(1/3)(2/3))=67.5 shots to kill. Rerolling 1's means it's 7/9 to hit instead of 2/3, which reduces this to ~57.9 shots to kill. If you assume that the Stalker did average damage with THGC of 3.11 wounds then it's ~39 shots. It's a big difference overall, and it's only 31 points more than 2 Heavy Destroyers while being almost twice as durable, and is decent in combat at a pinch. Against MEQ, a unit of 20 warriors expects to inflict 3.33 wounds. If they're rerolling from a Stalker hit, that only goes up to 3.89.
I think they have a place. I'm not sure they're essentials, but definitely a force multiplier.
skoffs wrote: Yes, Moosatronic Warrior, I saw.
I'm asking if that's all they'll be good for now, a slight chance at rerolling for our vehicles.
Is there a better application I'm just not seeing here?
Any infantry combos to exploit?
It gives re-rolls of 1 to hit to anything its already attacked that turn. For the entire army.
You want that wraithknight dead in two turns? Point your stalker at it.
It synergises really well with the DA, they now will be hitting on 3's RR 1's. Its a different heavy weapons alternative to having mass heavy destroyers as it doesn't give much of a bonus to builds that spam HD's.
I'm growing increasingly worried about genestealers, and I think people are sleeping on mass genestealer armies. They're quite ridiculous - at 12 points, the same as a Necron warrior, you get 3 S4 AP-1 attacks which are AP-4 on 6's. They get +1 attacks if the unit is more than 10 models (they 100% always will be). They move 8" and can charge after advancing, meaning they're a threat to anything within 8"+3D6". They have 5++ and are troops, so can be spammed en masse very easily. Broodlords give them +1 to hit and are psykers.
To be blunt, they're utterly crazy. If you think Immortals are good (they are, in fairness) then just run some calculations against these guys. If they get 20 models into combat (okay, not that likely but still) even unbuffed they will wipe a full Necron Warrior unit in one round. Against a T8 3+, a unit of 20 does 8.89 wounds per round. For 720 points, Tyranid players can field 60 of these guys and not even feel slightly bad about it. How on Earth do we deal with them? Maybe that's why Frankie said in his faction focus he runs 60+ warriors; you simply need that many to stand a chance against hordes.
As always, shoot the chargers and charge the shooters.
If our guns are not good enough, we will be lost.
Tactics can help to set up a refused flank (in Maelstrom not helpful) or whatnot.
Are our troops good enough to anchor the army? Will be we using the Battalion formation?
If so, I'm thinking that 20 Tesla Immortals and 60 Warriors is a good core though it is 1,060 points.
wuestenfux wrote: As always, shoot the chargers and charge the shooters.
If our guns are not good enough, we will be lost.
Tactics can help to set up a refused flank (in Maelstrom not helpful) or whatnot.
I've always found the best tactic in maelstrom is to focus more on the battle than the objectives. If your opponent does the same it's a fair fight. If they obsess over objectives, they're playing catch up unless they have really good luck as you can dismantle their army unchecked and secure board control.
Anpu-adom wrote: Are our troops good enough to anchor the army? Will be we using the Battalion formation?
If so, I'm thinking that 20 Tesla Immortals and 60 Warriors is a good core though it is 1,060 points.
I'd add more variety to the army. Such an army would be rather slow. Moreover, our troops are not good enough in cc.
What an army needs is to combat the enemy at all threat ranges.
Anpu-adom wrote: Are our troops good enough to anchor the army? Will be we using the Battalion formation?
If so, I'm thinking that 20 Tesla Immortals and 60 Warriors is a good core though it is 1,060 points.
I'd add more variety to the army. Such an army would be rather slow. Moreover, our troops are not good enough in cc.
What an army needs is to combat the enemy at all threat ranges.
Against shooty armies yes, you want other threats, but against horde spam, our best defence is massed gauss flayers/tesla.
Tyranid genestealers have invuln's. AP- isnt worth much against them, same as 7th. You need weight of fire to bring them down.
I feel 2x 20 man squads, with a cryptek and a GA full of warriors backing each one, is a very solid front line. Thats 160 rapid fire shots a turn. All split firing. Just whittle down each squad until good numbers have been lost to ensure more damage on break tests, and move onto the next blob.
I've fought GuardBlob, NidBlob and SeekerSpam in 7th. Best way to deal with them was either lots of blasts (PB on TB realistically, as all our vehicles were terrible) or massed gauss. Now we don't have templates, but we can spam gauss.
I'm starting to feel that Outrider might fit us better. Destroyers and Wraiths can make up the core of the army. While Warriors and Immortals are good, I'm not sure they're enough to fill out the meat and potatoes. Will have to continue on lists.
Then again, redundant Warrior/Immortal squads with multiple Crypteks and Overlords buffing them seems like it can Attrition down any army in the game.
I think I'm going to have a try at going all out with a deceiver bomb using 2 monoliths. something like...
CCB
15 Flayed ones
Deceiver
Monolith + 10 x Lichguard
Monolith + 6 x Wriath
Use the deceivers ability to get him and both Liths within 12" (command point reroll helps) then first turn charge with Lichguard and Wraith. Flayed ones also drop in first turn and try a 9" charge. CCB plays catch up if Deceiver doesnt get to move 3 units.
I'm gonna have to take a look at their data sheet again, but can Flayed Ones do a turn one rush?
And if you're really going with a D-Bomb list, perhaps Tomb Blades would be worth considering. At 14" M + 24" guns, they'll have the best chance of assisting that first turn blitz.
Or, hell, fully commit and throw some Flyers in, too (can you really deploy them on the table during setup?)
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I think I'm going to have a try at going all out with a deceiver bomb using 2 monoliths. something like...
CCB
15 Flayed ones
Deceiver
Monolith + 10 x Lichguard
Monolith + 6 x Wriath
Use the deceivers ability to get him and both Liths within 12" (command point reroll helps) then first turn charge with Lichguard and Wraith. Flayed ones also drop in first turn and try a 9" charge. CCB plays catch up if Deceiver doesnt get to move 3 units.
First turn is highly likely with so few units.
Assuming 2k points game.
A very small army. Very risky.
A first turn charge may or may not be worth it. Against a shooty army it could be worth it . But against a cc army, I would be cautious.
Deciever teleports the big blob of Warriors plus himself to the middle of the board. Remember, you can use a Command Point reroll on that pre-game d3, so decide to bring the Nightbringer or Cryptek based on what you roll. Deathmarks stay in Hyperspace.
The only thing available to shoot should be Warriors, which you potentially are buffing, and any important units they keep available can be blasted by the Deathmarks.
A bit one note but could be quite fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not getting too attached to any one list right now. The most interesting thing I'm seeing at the moment is that we have a lot of units that are... maybe not "niche", but definitely excel against certain armies and in certain metas.
Spyders, for instance, seem relatively fine all around - but if the meta shifts to be really heavy on Psykers, 2-3 Gloom Prism Spyders will be in nearly every list. Heavy Destroyers have already been discussed as really good anti-multi-wound units, but if you know the games are going to be focused around mass 1W models, just pass on them.
I feel like Necron lists will become very malleable depending on the "weather" of the games around them.
Unless something changed this edition genestealers don't benefit from synapse, so you can battle shock them off of the board. They do have leadership 9 though, so it takes around 7 or so casualties before battle shock becomes a worry, but that's also the same point where we can get them down to 3 attacks per with a decent battle shock roll.
Per the offense sheet, our best answer for genestealers is scarabs. Scarabs are fast, fearless, have a ton of attacks, and a ton of wounds. the fact they are around the same cost as Genestealers means we can field them in an almost one on one fashion. If a unit of 10 can get the charge it's likely good night for the genestealers.
Melta and Lascannons are going to be popular weapons by the look of it. QS really counters Melta 2D6 take the highest quite strongly, and the thing about Lascannon type 1D6 damage is it's quite the good candidate for spending the reroll early - I reckon aiming for a brigade list is going to be a thing, giving 9 CP = 9 rerolls. At minimum with more expensive armies (like Necrons), 6 CP from two 3CP detachments. Expensive vehicles are key lynchpins, and you really want to be rerolling your 1's and 2's to maximise your damage values on them - but this doesn't really work against Necrons. Necs can also reroll their own QS if say you whiff with a 6 against their 5 or 6.
Arks seem really good. The Stalker/Doomsday combo is expensive at 587 but seems like it could offer massively powerful wound stripping downrange while at the same time being resilient back; and as a backup they offer 10-20 flayer shorts per Ark each now that facings aren't aren't a thing. Grab that firebase and feel more comfortable spamming out all the 1D attacks from Tesla and Gauss and Scarabs and Flayed Ones in the rest of the list.
Ghost Arks, seem expensive but strong - operate closer in, but without the fear against Melta - they put out the firepower of a ten man squad of Warriors themselves at 50 more points, and really it's a steal when you add in the res capability, on top of the ability.
Warriors themselves seem really good this go around, they lose the durabilty of the immediate RP roll, but being 4+ save recieve the massive boost to all 4+ save types, where all the old AP4 weapons give them a 5+ save from AP -1
The Obelisk isn't that bad either - in 8th ed, a LOT of units have the keyword FLY - in Necrons alone it's every vehicle, all C'tan, all Destroyers, Praetorians, Tomb Blades. Same goes for Tau; Eldar, Blood Angels...
Grimgold wrote: Unless something changed this edition genestealers don't benefit from synapse, so you can battle shock them off of the board. They do have leadership 9 though, so it takes around 7 or so casualties before battle shock becomes a worry, but that's also the same point where we can get them down to 3 attacks per with a decent battle shock roll.
Per the offense sheet, our best answer for genestealers is scarabs. Scarabs are fast, fearless, have a ton of attacks, and a ton of wounds. the fact they are around the same cost as Genestealers means we can field them in an almost one on one fashion. If a unit of 10 can get the charge it's likely good night for the genestealers.
I would have thought that "my will be done" Tesla Immortals are our best bet against stealers. Not compared the maths though.
Spiders are one thing that seems pretty suck really. T6 4W non Character is just not tough - a 3+ hit (likely aurabuffed) 3+ wound, 4+ roll missle launcher or lascannon will take one out, snagging 81-89 odd points, without the gun. Not hard really. I think the vehicles stand up well enough on their own with QS
Use the deceivers ability to get him and both Liths within 12" (command point reroll helps) then first turn charge with Lichguard and Wraith.
Think I spotted a problem with your plan:
Wraiths don't have the "Infantry" keyword. Monoliths (and Night Scythes) can only allow "Infantry". You would be able to take Praetorians, though.
Are they, though?
I don't see anything on their data slate that would indicate they are (unless there's something somewhere that says all models with the Canoptek keyword have something like the Praetorian "Purpose Unshakeable" rule that I haven't seen yet)
So, for Battleforged army detachment tricks - I can see the Outrider 'Scarab Nest' detachment being a thing.
One HQ and 3 minimum size 3 base units of scarabs at 39 points each, that will give you your blockers and an HQ you'll want anyway, picking up one CP as a bonus.
You really want those throwaway cheapo units in 8th ed to shut down deployment vectors and speedbumping fast assault units.
Use the deceivers ability to get him and both Liths within 12" (command point reroll helps) then first turn charge with Lichguard and Wraith.
Think I spotted a problem with your plan:
Wraiths don't have the "Infantry" keyword. Monoliths (and Night Scythes) can only allow "Infantry". You would be able to take Praetorians, though.
Scarabs are definitely going to help a lot as a tarpit.
Also was it just me or are Lychguard and Praetorians at 2 Wounds? I need to look at the sheets again but damn that's good stuff. If you want to fork over the points for a Cryptek, you can make your Lychguard still tough with a 5++ and keep the Scythes.
Grimgold wrote: Unless something changed this edition genestealers don't benefit from synapse, so you can battle shock them off of the board. They do have leadership 9 though, so it takes around 7 or so casualties before battle shock becomes a worry, but that's also the same point where we can get them down to 3 attacks per with a decent battle shock roll.
Per the offense sheet, our best answer for genestealers is scarabs. Scarabs are fast, fearless, have a ton of attacks, and a ton of wounds. the fact they are around the same cost as Genestealers means we can field them in an almost one on one fashion. If a unit of 10 can get the charge it's likely good night for the genestealers.
I would have thought that "my will be done" Tesla Immortals are our best bet against stealers. Not compared the maths though.
Added tesla and MWBD tesla to the sheet, they are tied for third place against genestealers (they really want your pants), after scarabs, gauss immortals in rapid fire range, and tied with flayed ones.
Also was it just me or are Lychguard and Praetorians at 2 Wounds? I need to look at the sheets again but damn that's good stuff. If you want to fork over the points for a Cryptek, you can make your Lychguard still tough with a 5++ and keep the Scythes.
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