Also was it just me or are Lychguard and Praetorians at 2 Wounds? I need to look at the sheets again but damn that's good stuff. If you want to fork over the points for a Cryptek, you can make your Lychguard still tough with a 5++ and keep the Scythes.
Remember that the Cryptek 5++ is only against shooting - but if you want to spring an extra 39 points, Orikan gives them a 5++ period. He still gives out the same RP buff and trades shooting for better melee and attacks.
Grimgold wrote: Unless something changed this edition genestealers don't benefit from synapse, so you can battle shock them off of the board. They do have leadership 9 though, so it takes around 7 or so casualties before battle shock becomes a worry, but that's also the same point where we can get them down to 3 attacks per with a decent battle shock roll.
Per the offense sheet, our best answer for genestealers is scarabs. Scarabs are fast, fearless, have a ton of attacks, and a ton of wounds. the fact they are around the same cost as Genestealers means we can field them in an almost one on one fashion. If a unit of 10 can get the charge it's likely good night for the genestealers.
According to leaked rules, all units from a <Hive Fleet> automatically pass morale tests in synapse range. Genestealers have the <Hive Fleet> keyword.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kornath wrote: If wraiths have an armour save of 4+ wouldn't that mean that Grav weapons don't get any bonuses against them?
EDIT: Ignore me, it just says 3+ save (unless it makes a distinction between armour and invulnerable save)
I think your first idea is right. The Sv in the profile is an armor save. This is effectively means the Grav weapons won't do increased damage on wraiths even if they have 3+ invul save.
Also was it just me or are Lychguard and Praetorians at 2 Wounds? I need to look at the sheets again but damn that's good stuff. If you want to fork over the points for a Cryptek, you can make your Lychguard still tough with a 5++ and keep the Scythes.
Remember that the Cryptek 5++ is only against shooting.
That's a good buff though. One of the problems scythguard had were that they were really easy to gun down due to a lack of an invul. Now with 2w and a 5++ save from a nearby cryptek, as well as the changes to ap, its going to be harder to kill them off.
torblind wrote: We are back with Tesla in overwatch now, right?
It depends a lot on how the +1/-1 to hit is worded.
Mathematically speaking, I think that a +1 to hit would prevent us from using abilities that allow us to re-roll ones. as a roll of 1 would be a "2" and a roll of 6 would be a "7".
Conversely, with a -1 to hit, a roll of 6 would be a "5". It's all about how it is worded.
torblind wrote: We are back with Tesla in overwatch now, right?
It depends a lot on how the +1/-1 to hit is worded.
Mathematically speaking, I think that a +1 to hit would prevent us from using abilities that allow us to re-roll ones. as a roll of 1 would be a "2" and a roll of 6 would be a "7".
Conversely, with a -1 to hit, a roll of 6 would be a "5". It's all about how it is worded.
Overwatch is a flat 6 to hit. There is no modifier.
Whops! My bad. For some reason I tought it was a -1 to hit. Too many news and profiles in the last 2 days. Then I guess it's definitely correct. Tesla Immortals are back in the spotlight!
To be honest, I was a bit surprised by the return of the 6 to hit as well. I don't know why they would use a flat number in a game where they just introduced modifiers, but I'm sure there's a good reason.
So with the new RP, a silver tide approach seems like a good idea. A few high count/maxed out units of Warriors and Immortals would be the best use of the RP. And bucketloads of AP shooting
Any reason to not take a full ghost ark over 20 warriors? GA has the firepower of 20 warriors, gives a res orb every round, and has a 12" move. It's also arguably tougher than a 20 man warrior blob, and thanks to the hovering rule can shoot all of it's shot from it's prow ornament (painfully silly, but that's the way it will be till a faq). Obsec is gone, and I can't think of a reason why bodies would be better. what do you guys think?
Grimgold wrote: Any reason to not take a full ghost ark over 20 warriors? GA has the firepower of 20 warriors, gives a res orb every round, and has a 12" move. It's also arguably tougher than a 20 man warrior blob, and thanks to the hovering rule can shoot all of it's shot from it's prow ornament (painfully silly, but that's the way it will be till a faq). Obsec is gone, and I can't think of a reason why bodies would be better. what do you guys think?
The only downside I can think is that it doesn't benefit from as many bonuses/synergies and can't come back when slain (though has Living Metal). Other than that, you're right, it's pretty awesome.
Though to clarify, it has the shooting of 10 Warriors, each Flayer Array is 5 shots.
Grimgold wrote: Any reason to not take a full ghost ark over 20 warriors? GA has the firepower of 20 warriors, gives a res orb every round, and has a 12" move. It's also arguably tougher than a 20 man warrior blob, and thanks to the hovering rule can shoot all of it's shot from it's prow ornament (painfully silly, but that's the way it will be till a faq). Obsec is gone, and I can't think of a reason why bodies would be better. what do you guys think?
The only downside I can think is that it doesn't benefit from as many bonuses/synergies and can't come back when slain (though has Living Metal). Other than that, you're right, it's pretty awesome.
Though to clarify, it has the shooting of 10 Warriors, each Flayer Array is 5 shots.
Yea each flayer array is Rapid fire 5, meaning 10 shots per flayer, so 20 shots from both flayers at rapid fire.
I feel the only reason to have 20 is to have a cryptek with them and buffing them up. I had this thought too, but since I only have one GA, and one DA, gonna keep it at 1.
Grimgold wrote: Any reason to not take a full ghost ark over 20 warriors? GA has the firepower of 20 warriors, gives a res orb every round, and has a 12" move. It's also arguably tougher than a 20 man warrior blob, and thanks to the hovering rule can shoot all of it's shot from it's prow ornament (painfully silly, but that's the way it will be till a faq). Obsec is gone, and I can't think of a reason why bodies would be better. what do you guys think?
The only downside I can think is that it doesn't benefit from as many bonuses/synergies and can't come back when slain (though has Living Metal). Other than that, you're right, it's pretty awesome.
Though to clarify, it has the shooting of 10 Warriors, each Flayer Array is 5 shots.
Yea each flayer array is Rapid fire 5, meaning 10 shots per flayer, so 20 shots from both flayers at rapid fire.
I feel the only reason to have 20 is to have a cryptek with them and buffing them up. I had this thought too, but since I only have one GA, and one DA, gonna keep it at 1.
Yeah but Warriors are also Rapid Fire. A Flayer Array has the firepower of 5 Warriors.
Though it's easier to get in Rapid Fire range with the Ghost Ark I suppose, with the bigger movement.
A Spyder with a Fab Claw and a Gloom prism hiding behind a Mono, T-Vault, or Oby seem like it could be a good thing. Fab Claw+Living Metal could erase a giant chunk of fire power every turn.
Anpu-adom wrote: Ghost Ark isn't open topped, and warriors don't have pistols. I don't think that the warriors inside can shoot out. That is a downside.
there is that 7th ed mindset getting me again, I think you're right, nothing I've read says you can shoot out unless you have pistols and the vehicle is in CC.
Terrible news! I don't think a unit can move after being brought into play by the Monolith. I assumed it worked like a transport but the section of the core rules on reinforcements says any unit brought into play mid turn can't move.
To hit modifiers and things that reroll 1s or have tesla may need clarification, I assume youre 1s are 2s so can't be rerolled and youre 5s get 2 extra hits but not sure.
Denegaar wrote:C'tan powers can be used in the shooting phase.
buddha wrote:It says they are used in the shooting phase so Imagine that's the answer. No dumb questions, everyone is starting from zero again with this.
Yeah, that's the bit I don't get. They're what I would call "ranged weapons", but they don't have a unit profile, so I don't know if they can actually be used or not.
Also, I think the Tesseract Vault gets to use the same power multiple times because they're not psychic powers. I mean, they're still awful, but it's something.
Imhotek seems good just not sure what place he has in an army. His stormlord power is a pretty decent mortal wound generator at least. Seems pricey compared to other big named character though.
Zhandrekh is only 180pts for a whole heap load of buffs. Not bad in CC. I'm liking him more and more as I try to build armies.
Trazyn.. ya, they still havn't figured out why a player should take him.
Orikan is great. Another awesome choice. Beyond his own good stats and "stars is right" ability the supercharged area invul rocks.
Szeras gives out whole game lasting buffs a turn to immortals and warriors. With a decent anti-tank weapon not bad at all.
Arankyr holy crap hits hard, can be taken in any <dynasty> and now has an invul.
I'm not sure there is agreement the C'tan powers suck...they seem pretty good to me. You can tailor the power you take per game based on the enemy army, and mortal wounds are excellent.
I'm going to assume Time's Arrow can't be used to snipe minor characters, though it's not exactly clear because it's not really 'shooting' despite taking place in the shooting phase. If it's FAQed that it can, it makes it really good, but if it can't, there are still plenty of high value 2W and 3W per model units people like to take.
- Stormlord seems decent now. He can shoot both of his weapons and he no longer gets screwed by melee. He has the Overlord buff, a Flayed One buff, a pretty nice once-per-game ability and improved regeneration. I don't know whether he's worth his points, but he looks usable at least.
- Trazyn likewise looks improved. He gained a 4+ invulnerable, Living Metal, My Will be Done, +1S, his weapon inflicts d3 wounds and he still has his revival ability. Given his cost, he really doesn't seem too bad to me. I get that he won't be optimal, but unlike his last incarnation I wouldn't feel like I was actively handicapping myself by taking him.
Anyway, I've got some questions:
- What are people's thoughts regarding a Destroyer Lord vs. a regular Overlord?
- Which do you like best - the warscythe or the staff of light?
- Do you think Phylacteries or Res. Orbs are worth it?
With regard to Destroyers, what do you think will be the optimal unit size for them? Also, do you think it's better to keep Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers separate, or mix and match?
Vehicles now are locked in combat, right? And have to fall back to get out?
So if I bring a Tesseract Vault and it is charged, its essentially stuck until I can gun down its pursuing monsters while they tear hole after hole in that thing. (It's 6+ WS and 3 attacks isn't really making a difference)
My thought is that independent characters aren't beat sticks anymore, they are buff dispensers, at least for necrons. As a buff dispenser Nemesor Zahndrekh is pretty unequaled , he has MWBD, a random buff that is pretty sexy (and can stack), and can he can copy a nearby opponent's auras, like say a mad doks FnP or a space marine ancients +1 attack. He is pricey, but on good rounds he will be doing the work of two overlords. There is a lot of synergy between him and vargard Obyron, and plenty of opportunity for mischief with the ghost walk mantle. Outside of those two the other characters seem more situational.
The Ghost Ark is growing on me. QS is better than I initially thought for a start. Being able to shoot it's 10 flayers after moving 12 is decent firepower and it's resurrection ability used with a 20 warrior blob is pretty good.
A res orb-ish that goes off every turn (for one unit) AFTER movement is very handy. With it's 12" move it can bring the healing where its needed and you can move your crypteks in range before it goes off.
It's also an excellent way to move characters in range of units that have deep struck or been moved ahead. Say you are putting a couple of infantry units forward with the Deceiver and/or a Monolith; they won't have the cryptek and res orb support that makes them shine, so after being punished for getting so close to the enemy they only get a 5+ re-an. A ghost ark that's moved up behind can have a cryptek disembark the turn after you have been abussed and move + advance towards the warriors. The ghost ark can then move in and do a second reanimation roll at 4+.
I also just realised that if you sit the deceiver in the middle of 20 warrior unit that he has moved into 12" range then when the enemy charges the warriors he can perform an heroic intervention! That's some awesome protection for the warriors.
torblind wrote: Vehicles now are locked in combat, right? And have to fall back to get out?
So if I bring a Tesseract Vault and it is charged, its essentially stuck until I can gun down its pursuing monsters while they tear hole after hole in that thing. (It's 6+ WS and 3 attacks isn't really making a difference)
Though vehicles have overwatch now, right?
The Vault (alongside all our other vehicles, hooray for skimmers) has the Fly keyword, so it can shoot as it's falling back. Bit of a bonus we get over the plebs with land-locked tanks.
Grimgold wrote: My thought is that independent characters aren't beat sticks anymore, they are buff dispensers, at least for necrons.
Honestly, the biggest change for me is that Necron HQs finally make me want to take them.
In 7th, every single one felt like a tax. They weren't effective in combat, they weren't effective at range, they had no or negligible buffs etc.
In 8th though, their standard weapons are decent in both shooting and melee, and the new to-hit mechanic means D. Lords and Overlords are now much more accurate with warscythes or such (and the former is pretty damn fast). What's more, there are a lot of good buffs hanging around.- Overlords can improve a unit each turn, D. Lords boost Destroyers, Crypteks improve both RP and invulnerable saves.
I've gone from not wanting to include HQs beyond the bare minimum to worrying about how many points I can afford to spend on all the HQs I want.
The only HQ that doesn't appeal to me at all is the Necron Lord. I just don't see the point over an Overlord or Cryptek.
Yeah, our HQs are now amazing force multipliers. You'd want a variety of them to get all of those buffs out. The Necron Lord is good for morale and res orb carrying, as res orbs are now one use only. They are a bit cheaper than overlords, so you can theoretically have more orbs with lords than overlords.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, our HQs are now amazing force multipliers. You'd want a variety of them to get all of those buffs out.
The Necron Lord is good for morale and res orb carrying, as res orbs are now one use only. They are a bit cheaper than overlords, so you can theoretically have more orbs with lords than overlords.
Between ld 10 and command points to pass morale I'm still not seeing the Lord's use.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, our HQs are now amazing force multipliers. You'd want a variety of them to get all of those buffs out.
The Necron Lord is good for morale and res orb carrying, as res orbs are now one use only. They are a bit cheaper than overlords, so you can theoretically have more orbs with lords than overlords.
Between ld 10 and command points to pass morale I'm still not seeing the Lord's use.
If you take enough casualties having a reroll might be a good thing.
You can't regen command points, right? So anything that allows you to save them for something else is a good thing.
You need to take at least 5 causalities in order for morale to become a concern. As warriors only have 4+ saves, it is quite possible for them to lose that many. Anything that ensures they stick around long enough for their RP rolls is a good thing.
torblind wrote: Vehicles now are locked in combat, right? And have to fall back to get out?
So if I bring a Tesseract Vault and it is charged, its essentially stuck until I can gun down its pursuing monsters while they tear hole after hole in that thing. (It's 6+ WS and 3 attacks isn't really making a difference)
Though vehicles have overwatch now, right?
The Vault (alongside all our other vehicles, hooray for skimmers) has the Fly keyword, so it can shoot as it's falling back. Bit of a bonus we get over the plebs with land-locked tanks.
Ah yes, 20 S7 tesla shots should leave a dent on any charger.
Grimgold wrote:My thought is that independent characters aren't beat sticks anymore, they are buff dispensers, at least for necrons. As a buff dispenser Nemesor Zahndrekh is pretty unequaled , he has MWBD, a random buff that is pretty sexy (and can stack), and can he can copy a nearby opponent's auras, like say a mad doks FnP or a space marine ancients +1 attack. He is pricey, but on good rounds he will be doing the work of two overlords. There is a lot of synergy between him and vargard Obyron, and plenty of opportunity for mischief with the ghost walk mantle. Outside of those two the other characters seem more situational.
The nice thing is - they're both. An Overlord that gets in with a Warscythe is beating on anything not a Monster on 2+/3+ with the Warscythe. Even the Staff is fine in combat and can be shot (even when running!). It never feels bad to bring an HQ now.
torblind wrote:
Doctarro wrote: Do you have to get an Overlord separately from the CCB? The datasheet seems pretty unclear.
If we do have a separate Overlord, then that means we've got MWBD on a 12" move platform, which seems pretty good for getting it where you want it.
CCB already has MWBD on steroids, called wave of command, it's a 12 " bubble
Nope, only affects one unit. It has a 12" range as opposed to MWBD on 6", though.
torblind wrote: Vehicles now are locked in combat, right? And have to fall back to get out?
So if I bring a Tesseract Vault and it is charged, its essentially stuck until I can gun down its pursuing monsters while they tear hole after hole in that thing. (It's 6+ WS and 3 attacks isn't really making a difference)
Though vehicles have overwatch now, right?
The Vault (alongside all our other vehicles, hooray for skimmers) has the Fly keyword, so it can shoot as it's falling back. Bit of a bonus we get over the plebs with land-locked tanks.
Ah yes, 20 S7 tesla shots should leave a dent on any charger.
Another plus for the Monolith as well - it has 20 Overwatch shots and then can fall back and shoot at full BS. Granted it still does suck that it's not 3+ at full, but still, that's a lot of blasts. Not to mention the Eternity Gate "Overwatch".
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, our HQs are now amazing force multipliers. You'd want a variety of them to get all of those buffs out.
The Necron Lord is good for morale and res orb carrying, as res orbs are now one use only. They are a bit cheaper than overlords, so you can theoretically have more orbs with lords than overlords.
Between ld 10 and command points to pass morale I'm still not seeing the Lord's use.
Lords are almost essential if you're running 10 man units, and if you're running Immortals and things like Praets, Deathmarks and Lychguard why wouldn't you be.
2 points to pass a Morale check is a lot, the average Necron army will have 4 CPs as getting a brigade is quite tricky. I'm thinking you'll see it reserved more for your big 20 man warrior/flayed one type blocks that have eaten a turns worth of damage and lost ~15 or so models, or 9 out of 10 Lychguard, where burning the 2 CP is the difference between taking the unit off the board and you bringing back 75% of the casualties next turn with a res orb/ghost ark.
Where Lords come in is the 10 man squads as above. Losing 7 or 8 models is the danger zone. 7 models and rolling a 6 for morale will wipe the unit. 8 models and rolling 4+ will wipe the unit. The Lord is essential for the reroll to hedge against these outcomes - yes you can burn 1 CP for the same effect, but CPs are a precious resource, you want those CP rerolls for whiffed D6 damage rolls, skill checks, and the like.
The Lord is also a slot for a Res-Orb, which can be taken by a Cryptek, but not if you've gone for a named one.
Doctarro wrote: Do you have to get an Overlord separately from the CCB? The datasheet seems pretty unclear.
If we do have a separate Overlord, then that means we've got MWBD on a 12" move platform, which seems pretty good for getting it where you want it.
CCB already has MWBD on steroids, called wave of command, it's a 12 " bubble
Yeah, sorry I meant having MWBD in addition to Wave of Command, getting you two units with the buff. If the Overlord is included in the cost printed for the CCB, that's pretty good, a big movement upgrade for 37 points.
The Problem with CCB is that your lord is pretty exposed, because he can't hide behind other units because he is not a character. he also does not have a phase shifter or a phylactery, and the barges are on the level of dreadnoughts when it comes to durability, which is to say it's not impossible for a devastator squad to polish him off in a round. Also since he loses character lychguard can't protect him either. As soon as your opponent watches you do command wave from the barge he will drop what he is doing and nuke it off of the face of the earth.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, our HQs are now amazing force multipliers. You'd want a variety of them to get all of those buffs out.
The Necron Lord is good for morale and res orb carrying, as res orbs are now one use only. They are a bit cheaper than overlords, so you can theoretically have more orbs with lords than overlords.
Between ld 10 and command points to pass morale I'm still not seeing the Lord's use.
Lords are almost essential if you're running 10 man units, and if you're running Immortals and things like Praets, Deathmarks and Lychguard why wouldn't you be.
2 points to pass a Morale check is a lot, the average Necron army will have 4 CPs as getting a brigade is quite tricky. I'm thinking you'll see it reserved more for your big 20 man warrior/flayed one type blocks that have eaten a turns worth of damage and lost ~15 or so models, or 9 out of 10 Lychguard, where burning the 2 CP is the difference between taking the unit off the board and you bringing back 75% of the casualties next turn with a res orb/ghost ark.
Where Lords come in is the 10 man squads as above. Losing 7 or 8 models is the danger zone. 7 models and rolling a 6 for morale will wipe the unit. 8 models and rolling 4+ will wipe the unit. The Lord is essential for the reroll to hedge against these outcomes - yes you can burn 1 CP for the same effect, but CPs are a precious resource, you want those CP rerolls for whiffed D6 damage rolls, skill checks, and the like.
The Lord is also a slot for a Res-Orb, which can be taken by a Cryptek, but not if you've gone for a named one.
I'm definitely not arguing morale control is great but the lord just lets you re-roll a dice and if you've taken a lot of losses this round that sure as heck isn't a reliable savior. Indeed, for his point cost I'd rather just have more guys,
This sheet does some things: you input the T, W, Sv, invuln and number of models of that type at the top, then it calculates 3 things: the amount of points you would need to sink into a specific unit to deal 1 dmg to that foe, how many unsaved wounds a specific number of modles of each type would inflict opon that enemy and how many points you would need to sink soley into one model type to statistically kill that amount of foes. To do this it uses some values that are just conveniant inputs made by me and that need to be adjusted to compare the performance of units in your armies: the "units size" column. The point price is independent of this, but the number of total dmg dealt is not. Therfore you can handily see with one sheet what would be the optimal unit to attack that given foe, and how many wounds each of your described units would deal.
The most efficient 25% units are marked with a green background, the top 25% units regarding amount of dmg dealt is marked with orange text.
The third thing this shows you is how many points you need to spend on a single unit type to kill of some foe. This uses the # of enemy models input, and highlights the most efficient unit (in its own column) with red text.
Ive tried to get realistic values that kind of represent battle field situations while still beeing comparative. This results in some arbitrarily pre set unit sizes youre free to change to get unsaved wounds per unit of this size that better match your needs - and resulted in the quirk that ive put in the obelisk at half its cost with half its shots. The "points per unsaved wound" metric is universally aplicable without taking any unit numbers (neither friend nor foe) into account and are mostly relevant if youre min/maxing against a certain type.
At the time of sharing this sheet represents the battle between 20 genestealer and 10 flaye ones and shows you:
- the most efficient (points wize) way to deal with genestealers is flayed ones, But you need 315points of them to kill one 230points blob of genestealers. This is roughly 16pts per wound - which is more than the 12pts the genstealer cost. :(
Then if you look at the plaing field at the bottom you see that this 20 genestealer put out exaktly 20 unsaved wounds against units with the stat line of flayed ones.
I conclued that its inefficient to field 20man flayed ones against them! Looking at the next best options we see that immortals with tesla are pretty close regarding wounds per points: 19pts per wound by normal tesla immortals, and 16 by ones that are buffed by an overlord with his mwbd. This is the only exception made to points calculations in the sheet so faar: the "Immortal Tesla buffed" column not only calculates the dmg delt by the immortals divided by there cost, but adds a naked overlord (without adding any dmg done by him) together with its buff* and its bare points costs.
Note: the amount(#) number in the lower part (my playing field) is not used in any way in the version shared. Add your own calculations This shows me, that i either can use 15model units of flayed ones and ABSOLUTLY have to strike before the genestealers - or i can put the poinst of 5 of this FOs into tesla imortals (and then some) and use a combination of 10 Immortals and 10 FO to reliably kill a whole 20 man unit of genestealers. This minimizes lost points on flayed ones if they dont charge first, and lets me take more Immortals (which are better facing several other unit types).
Plugging in another target, e.g. a Land Raider with T8 W16 2+ we see that our most efficient way of deal with such kind of thread would be a Nightbringer - if only its CC weapon and Gaze of Death would hurt vehicles on a 2+. This is lazyness on my part - you have to look at the "points needed to kill that foe" list manually and search for the smales entry to get the "best" unit to deal with it. In this case its heavy destroyers followed by sword and bord guards (740pts and 810). Using the other stats we can also see that the nightbringer is actually our second best bet against such beastialities - between gaze of death and his CC attacks he deals 4.9 wounds (47pts/wound), which is a litle bit cheaper than the sword and board guards 47pts/wound - a unit of 10 of them deals tasty 6 wounds in CC at 50pts/wound.
With a land rader as target we now can make a real ocmparation between doomsday arks and doom scythes: the ark puts out 3.1 wounds with its big gun and 1 wound with the smaler profile + the 2 gaus flayer arrays at 24'' (i didnt include other configurations since this are the ones i want to compare - the low energy shot has 24'' range now) at 65 or 195 points per wound, the domm scyth deals 2.6 wounds with its death ray and 0.4 with the tesla destructor = 3 wounds at 72pts each.
What ive found out playing with this: there are some corner cases in which the nightbringer actually achives it to cost less than the unit he kills, but most of the time we need 2-3 times the points to destroy things. But thus faar ive only testet against marines and some tyranids.
Marine vehicles are depressing: a 70pt Rhino needs 270pts of sword and board guard,385pts of heavy destroyers, 550pts of stalkers with a heat ray, or 540pts rapid fire gauss warriors (thats 1080 pts at > 12'' thats 45 or 90(!)) or 260pts of NIghtbringer ( = 2 shooting + 1 CC phase).
Next thing ill do (after the next 1...n beer) is to try to get an overview of what weapons we will face , and see how resilent we are against them. Will be hard to factor in RP but hopefully other races have to spend even more points on killing us than we spend on killing them. So faar im really not impressed -.-
[Edit:] hopefully im not disclosing too much with this google spread sheet, havnt used that publicly jet.
torblind wrote: We are back with Tesla in overwatch now, right?
It depends a lot on how the +1/-1 to hit is worded.
Mathematically speaking, I think that a +1 to hit would prevent us from using abilities that allow us to re-roll ones. as a roll of 1 would be a "2" and a roll of 6 would be a "7".
Conversely, with a -1 to hit, a roll of 6 would be a "5". It's all about how it is worded.
I've been toying around with powergame ideas for the 'Necron Brigade', seeing what sort of reasonable army could be fielded to access the 9+ CPs in a 3000 or less point game.
So far I've come up with
Brigade Detachment:
Zandrekh
Obyron
Orikan the Diviner
10 Immortals with Tesla
10 Immortals with Tesla
10 Immortals with Tesla
10 Immortals with Gauss
10 Immortals with Gauss
10 Immortals with Gauss
Deciever
Triarch Stalker with Twin Heavy Guass
Triarch Stalker with Twin Heavy Guass
3 Scarab
3 Scarab
3 Scarab
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
with an Outrider Detachment:
Lord with Hyperphase sword
3 Scarab
3 Scarab
3 Scarab
Grimgold wrote: Nice I do love improved, maybe add a column for how many rounds it takes the unit to kill the target?
I think the "how many points do i need of this model" way of thinking is more flexible and makes it easier to understand situations - but its nothing i commonly see in this forum so ive added the "turns to kill" metric
Hmm GA not being open topped isn't that great. I suppose you can just have the 10 dudes out front, shooting until they start to take damage, then they can just embark and RP up until back to full strength, then get back out again and keep shooting?
I'm definitely not arguing morale control is great but the lord just lets you re-roll a dice and if you've taken a lot of losses this round that sure as heck isn't a reliable savior. Indeed, for his point cost I'd rather just have more guys,
A Lord with a Hyperphase is just 76 points, approx 4 Immortals. With the way morale and resurrection works, that reroll just has to save a unit once for him to have saved his total value through the The Lord's Will
Here's how it works.
You have 10 Immortals, the enemy kills 8. You test for morale, roll a 4. 4+8-10LD = 2 more dead Immortals, you lose a unit.
Or, you reroll and get a 3. 3+8-10= 1 dead Immortal, leaving 1. Now it's your turn, and you reroll Res for 9 Immortals on a 4+ thanks to a handy Cryptek. You still have a unit of 5-6 Immortals with possible further regeneration.
If you have a unit of 10 and lose 9, it's an 84% chance to lose your unit, a Lord changes this to 68%
If you have a unit of 10 and lose 8, it's a 50% chance to lose your unit, a Lord changes this to 25%
If you have a unit of 10 and lose 7, it's a 16% chance to lose your unit, a Lord changes this to 2.7%
Lords are worth it, because unlike any other army, keeping a unit in the game doesn't just mean keeping 1 or 2 models around, but 5-6 thanks to immediate resurrection following a morale test.
An efficient cost to power ratio for an Immortal based army is a Battalion detachment of
Cryptek + Staff of Light
Lord + Hyperphase
10 Immortals
10 Immortals
10 Immortals
at 690 points giving 3 CP.
That gives a lot of room and flexibility to add in one or two 1CP detachments of toys to get a strong 4 or 5CP force in a 1500-2000 point game.
We should probably start a thread in general for discussing our 8th ed changes, 32 pages is a tab bit intimidating for people coming for a quick run down.
Also one other interesting thing for target priority, the biggest threats to your QS vehicles come from Str 7 weapons like Autocannons and Plasma. Taking them out first is a big deal for keeping your vehicles in play.
A real danger is the revamped Predator with Autocannon and HBs - one of these firing with some reasonable rolls could cripple a Stalker, perhaps even an Ark in one round.
Plasma is also scary, especially on overcharge which is fairly easy to achieve safely with Space Marine aura models allowing them to reroll 1's. Hitting well, wounding on 3s, no save, consistent 2 damage that can easily bypass most of your quantum shielding saves.
I was planning on doing a new one once 8th actually dropped, but I guess we could do it early.
Thing is, not everyone has access to the leaked pages. We would get a lot of people confused as to what we were talking about and we wouldn't be able to point them in the right direction for an explanation... granted, that'd be the same for the current thread.
(also, it doesn't necessarily need to be me that makes it. I just wanted to make sure it would be constantly updated. Previous tactics thread starters would just create the thing and leave it to wither. I wanted to make sure we would have new info easily findable for all players)
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FireSkullz2 wrote: I say we wait until we have some real game play backing up our understanding of 8th, maybe add "This page has this discussion" tabs in the OP.
skoffs wrote: I was planning on doing a new one once 8th actually dropped, but I guess we could do it early.
Thing is, not everyone has access to the leaked pages. We would get a lot of people confused as to what we were talking about and we wouldn't be able to point them in the right direction for an explanation... granted, that'd be the same for the current thread.
(also, it doesn't necessarily need to be me that makes it. I just wanted to make sure it would be constantly updated. Previous tactics thread starters would just create the thing and leave it to wither. I wanted to make sure we would have new info easily findable for all players)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FireSkullz2 wrote: I say we wait until we have some real game play backing up our understanding of 8th, maybe add "This page has this discussion" tabs in the OP.
Can do.
good job Skoffs
Also, props to Freddy Kruger posting this up in another thread.
I'm pretty concerned with how Necrons look. I think the 2 factions to beat are going to be Astra Militarum and Tyranids for sure.
Tyranids I've spoken on a bit, but it's worth just looking for yourself how good they are. Carnifexes are base 105 points for T7 W8 3+. They can field hordes of infantry for very little cost. They're extremely quick. Generally, you ARE getting charged by them. It remains to be seen by how many models, but I suspect that people are going to be very unable to deal with them at release.
AM are just silly. 102 points gets you a Chimera with a heavy flamer, which is T7 W10 3+. Plasma guns are 9 points; Scions can take 2 for 133 and just drop anywhere on the field. They can clog up the board with bodies, or they can heavily mechanise into exceptionally strong tanks. Manticores are silly strong for 133 points. They will almost certainly get 12 command points every single game, because it's that easy to fill up the Brigade detachment.
I don't see how we can compete with either. How do you prepare for a force which might be 200+ bodies with way more shooting than you and also prepare for a list of entirely T6+ W10+ models which also get better shooting than you? We have neither the advantage of durability, combat ability nor quantity. What's the use of vehicles when the enemy can field 20 100% accurate deep striking plasma guns which kill them in one turn? I don't understand how we're supposed to fight these armies with what we've been given; I feel like I'm trying to eat soup with a sieve looking at the lists other armies are putting out.
Eyjio wrote: I'm pretty concerned with how Necrons look. I think the 2 factions to beat are going to be Astra Militarum and Tyranids for sure.
Tyranids I've spoken on a bit, but it's worth just looking for yourself how good they are. Carnifexes are base 105 points for T7 W8 3+. They can field hordes of infantry for very little cost. They're extremely quick. Generally, you ARE getting charged by them. It remains to be seen by how many models, but I suspect that people are going to be very unable to deal with them at release.
AM are just silly. 102 points gets you a Chimera with a heavy flamer, which is T7 W10 3+. Plasma guns are 9 points; Scions can take 2 for 133 and just drop anywhere on the field. They can clog up the board with bodies, or they can heavily mechanise into exceptionally strong tanks. Manticores are silly strong for 133 points. They will almost certainly get 12 command points every single game, because it's that easy to fill up the Brigade detachment.
I don't see how we can compete with either. How do you prepare for a force which might be 200+ bodies with way more shooting than you and also prepare for a list of entirely T6+ W10+ models which also get better shooting than you? We have neither the advantage of durability, combat ability nor quantity. What's the use of vehicles when the enemy can field 20 100% accurate deep striking plasma guns which kill them in one turn? I don't understand how we're supposed to fight these armies with what we've been given; I feel like I'm trying to eat soup with a sieve looking at the lists other armies are putting out.
You need have a layered army and expendable units aka scarabs that deny drop vectors. Or, Warrior units you are prepared to lose. Look at miimum sizes - 10 Warriors for 120, 5 Immortals for 85, 3 Scarabs for 39.
The game's no longer about destroying the other army while retaining 90% of yours, it's more like Warmachine or Chess where you're expected to make trades, it's just how much better you are at trading than the other guy.
I think this ia going to be car-hammer again, since transports and vehicles god buffed alot and now Necrons ironically have nothing against high toughness (especially T8).
Melee Warscythes are usually S7, so wound on only 4-5+ and then vehicles have a save and a lot more wounds than before. To kill a knight with a warscythe we will need 36! hits, because to wound is 5+. A land rider is even worse....
Shooting with warriors requires now 288! hits to destroy a Knight, compared to 72 before.
Against Genestealers just put some Tesla immortals. 20 immortals buffed by an Overlord can kill 26 Genestealers in one round of shooting and 9 in overwatch.
For me ir looks like the best tactic for Necrons is bring hundreds of Warriors and Immortals, to kill enemy infantry and outlast/ignore the other stuff like heavy vehicles. Its now much harder to kill 20Immortals, because one hit can only bring down one model, so big guns are not scarry, and small usually dont have high str/ap.
Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.
Arachnofiend wrote: Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.
-5 save modifier, I think. And yeah, heavy gauss is pretty good AT. Gauss cannons can also do work with their D3 wounds, and due to the changes to wounding they will wound most heavy targets on a 5+, as long as the target's toughness does not exceed nine.
I agree with needing to deny drops now and making important trades. That's partially why I'm so concerned with AM and Nids - they can build an awful lot of redundancy into their lists, and it's very hard to stop it.
mangar wrote: I think this ia going to be car-hammer again, since transports and vehicles god buffed alot and now Necrons ironically have nothing against high toughness (especially T8).
Melee Warscythes are usually S7, so wound on only 4-5+ and then vehicles have a save and a lot more wounds than before. To kill a knight with a warscythe we will need 36! hits, because to wound is 5+. A land rider is even worse....
Shooting with warriors requires now 288! hits to destroy a Knight, compared to 72 before.
Against Genestealers just put some Tesla immortals. 20 immortals buffed by an Overlord can kill 26 Genestealers in one round of shooting and 9 in overwatch.
For me ir looks like the best tactic for Necrons is bring hundreds of Warriors and Immortals, to kill enemy infantry and outlast/ignore the other stuff like heavy vehicles. Its now much harder to kill 20Immortals, because one hit can only bring down one model, so big guns are not scarry, and small usually dont have high str/ap.
IMO, what was done to the Warscythe is an abomination. It used to be one of the single best anti-tank weapons in the game bar none. It's now a slightly better autocannon. It's a total joke that over the course of the game it's gone from (assuming it's on a lord/overlord) S5 ignore armour+invuln 2D6 pen, to S7 ignore armour 2D6 pen, to S7 AP1 2D6 pen, and is now S7 (which is substantially weaker) AP-4 dam 2. In the original codex it was one of the best infantry killers in the game. In 5th/6th/7th, it was very good at killing everything. It's now decent at killing infantry and absolute trash against vehicles - the most it can do in a turn has reduced from instantly killing a vehicle to maybe doing half of a weak vehicles health if you get extremely lucky. Their only saving grace is that they're now cheaper than the Staff of Light and, you're often about as well off taking a 3 point Hyperphase Sword as you are taking an 11 point Warscythe, let alone the 18 point staff which is often substantially worse.
I think you're right. I'm not unconvinced that our best plan isn't just 40 warriors crowded around Orikan and an Overlord, 20 Tesla Immortals in 2 units at the back, a bunch of scarabs and Heavy Destroyers; maybe a Stalker to buff shooting. That leaves us super weak to vehicles, but we can't do much about that anyway. I'm pretty about the whole situation.
Not really. You need "only" 16 shots with a heavy destroyer to bring down a knight. They are "only" 75 points each, so thats 1200 points (same as 100 warriors).
Arachnofiend wrote: Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.
You're looking at about 6 heavy destroyers to kill a 70 point Rhino or 103 point Chimera. That's 450 points of very vulnerable shooting...
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MoonlightSonata wrote: An 8th edition 2000pts Necrons vs Blood Angels battle report for our discussion and dissection:
Interesting, but a lot of incorrect rules:
-Vehicles CAN overwatch
-Can't fire out of Ghost Arks
-Can't stack Cryptek buffs (though not an issue in this game)
-Seems to imply multiple models were taken out by lascannons? Can't possibly happen, maybe was talking about chunks of wounds on vehicles?
In any case, this is about what I expected. Necrons cannot deal with vehicles and we're massively outgunned by just about everything. What a depressing read.
Arachnofiend wrote: Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.
You're looking at about 6 heavy destroyers to kill a 70 point Rhino or 103 point Chimera. That's 450 points of very vulnerable shooting...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MoonlightSonata wrote: An 8th edition 2000pts Necrons vs Blood Angels battle report for our discussion and dissection:
Interesting, but a lot of incorrect rules: -Vehicles CAN overwatch -Can't fire out of Ghost Arks -Can't stack Cryptek buffs (though not an issue in this game) -Seems to imply multiple models were taken out by lascannons? Can't possibly happen, maybe was talking about chunks of wounds on vehicles?
In any case, this is about what I expected. Necrons cannot deal with vehicles and we're massively outgunned by just about everything. What a depressing read.
The new edition has been released, losses are sure to occur due to the changes in rules. necrons play differently then before, and as such the lists and tactics from before will not work as well now. I would wait for a while before making a call. And as you said, a lot of the rules were wrong here. Gauss Cannons, for example, have AP-3, not AP-2. I would hardly call this report proof of necron weakness.
Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Imperial Armour: Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.
Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.
Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.
Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.
changemod wrote: Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.
Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.
Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.
Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.
I don't think the penalty for shooting at ground targets apply. I think the penalty only applies to aerial targets, and even then it only appears to be a -1 to hit.
changemod wrote: Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.
Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.
Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.
Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.
I don't think the penalty for shooting at ground targets apply. I think the penalty only applies to aerial targets, and even then it only appears to be a -1 to hit.
I've seen Skyfire units in 8th that have a -1 to ground targets. Still good through, it means you can toss them in your list and even if nothing has Fly (and what has fly is -waaaaay- wider than before) you can still contribute albeit at a slight penalty.
Still, the 7th ed pylon was a over 400 point Lord of War superheavy that was stuck with 6th ed stats with Skyfire and Interceptor. It was -painful- to field.
changemod wrote: Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.
Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.
Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.
Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.
Who said that the Necron codex will be out in the weeks following 8th? I would expect at least 6 months or more for our codex - the first ones will be Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, etc - they're pushing Chaos vs Imperium, right?
And you won't be able to use the Pylon at all, it's not got any rules. On the grounds that I've had one since 3rd and it's never been good, ever, I wouldn't get your hopes up too high for them.
changemod wrote: Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.
Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.
Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.
Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.
Who said that the Necron codex will be out in the weeks following 8th? I would expect at least 6 months or more for our codex - the first ones will be Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, etc - they're pushing Chaos vs Imperium, right?
And you won't be able to use the Pylon at all, it's not got any rules. On the grounds that I've had one since 3rd and it's never been good, ever, I wouldn't get your hopes up too high for them.
Shoot missed "imperial armour index Xenos".
Though really from me talking about the Pylon you probably should have been able to work that out.
Though really from me talking about the Pylon you probably should have been able to work that out.
FW rules for Necron units have never been good, barring a cheese reading of the Death Ray pylon. I seriously doubt they're going to patch up the holes in our army now. Unless the Sentry Pylons cost under 150 points, we'll continue to have a huge gap in our AT ability. Likewise, Acanthrite melta is probably just going to be a S6 AP-3 gun rerolling damage, which isn't going to help either. I'm not quite sure what you're expecting to see from them honestly.
Has anyone done the math on the points of your collection before and after 8th? My army went up by a little over 20%. I figure that this was part of their solution to shorter games.
Yeah, not going to lie, Necrons usually get shafted when it comes to forgeworld. I mean, where is my titan equivalent? My Aeonic Orb? My Abattoir? The best thing we have FW wise is a flyer that actually looks well designed.
Eyjio wrote: IMO, what was done to the Warscythe is an abomination. It used to be one of the single best anti-tank weapons in the game bar none. It's now a slightly better autocannon. It's a total joke that over the course of the game it's gone from (assuming it's on a lord/overlord) S5 ignore armour+invuln 2D6 pen, to S7 ignore armour 2D6 pen, to S7 AP1 2D6 pen, and is now S7 (which is substantially weaker) AP-4 dam 2. In the original codex it was one of the best infantry killers in the game. In 5th/6th/7th, it was very good at killing everything. It's now decent at killing infantry and absolute trash against vehicles - the most it can do in a turn has reduced from instantly killing a vehicle to maybe doing half of a weak vehicles health if you get extremely lucky. Their only saving grace is that they're now cheaper than the Staff of Light and, you're often about as well off taking a 3 point Hyperphase Sword as you are taking an 11 point Warscythe, let alone the 18 point staff which is often substantially worse.
Personally, I think it's a shame they didn't go back to something like 4th edition (when it used to ignore both armour and invulnerable saves). They could have made each wound inflicted by a Warscythe a Mortal Wound.
I don't know if it would be powerful, but it would at least be unique and flavourful.
Eyjio wrote: IMO, what was done to the Warscythe is an abomination. It used to be one of the single best anti-tank weapons in the game bar none. It's now a slightly better autocannon. It's a total joke that over the course of the game it's gone from (assuming it's on a lord/overlord) S5 ignore armour+invuln 2D6 pen, to S7 ignore armour 2D6 pen, to S7 AP1 2D6 pen, and is now S7 (which is substantially weaker) AP-4 dam 2. In the original codex it was one of the best infantry killers in the game. In 5th/6th/7th, it was very good at killing everything. It's now decent at killing infantry and absolute trash against vehicles - the most it can do in a turn has reduced from instantly killing a vehicle to maybe doing half of a weak vehicles health if you get extremely lucky. Their only saving grace is that they're now cheaper than the Staff of Light and, you're often about as well off taking a 3 point Hyperphase Sword as you are taking an 11 point Warscythe, let alone the 18 point staff which is often substantially worse.
Personally, I think it's a shame they didn't go back to something like 4th edition (when it used to ignore both armour and invulnerable saves). They could have made each wound inflicted by a Warscythe a Mortal Wound.
I don't know if it would be powerful, but it would at least be unique and flavourful.
Yeah, I wanted them to go that route a well. It could have even been a mortal wound on a 6, if they were worried about it being op. That would have been a nice nod to preward necrons.
So I was just trying to build a list for a quick test game against a friend shortly and I noticed that the Overlord/Lord/Cryptek has no option to take a Phylactery. In fact the the only HQ who gets a choice is the Destroyer Lord! WHAT!
MoonlightSonata wrote: So I was just trying to build a list for a quick test game against a friend shortly and I noticed that the Overlord/Lord/Cryptek has no option to take a Phylactery. In fact the the only HQ who gets a choice is the Destroyer Lord! WHAT!
Yeah, Necrons have a surprising lack of options. You can't even give your Cryptek stuff anymore. Not sure I like that.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, not going to lie, Necrons usually get shafted when it comes to forgeworld. I mean, where is my titan equivalent? My Aeonic Orb? My Abattoir? The best thing we have FW wise is a flyer that actually looks well designed.
Not great for number of releases or big releases, no. Still, IA12 was pretty solid for us until 7th rolled around and was just short of entirely incompatible. My biggest complaint when it was interacting with 5th's codex in 6th was that the Tomb Stalker was terrible, yet had such a cool model.
Though really from me talking about the Pylon you probably should have been able to work that out.
FW rules for Necron units have never been good, barring a cheese reading of the Death Ray pylon. I seriously doubt they're going to patch up the holes in our army now. Unless the Sentry Pylons cost under 150 points, we'll continue to have a huge gap in our AT ability. Likewise, Acanthrite melta is probably just going to be a S6 AP-3 gun rerolling damage, which isn't going to help either. I'm not quite sure what you're expecting to see from them honestly.
Even a unit of S6 Melta is pretty good next to current. 5+ instead of 4+ absolutely not great, but it's still Melta in units of 3-9.
Oh and the Tesseract Ark is another chance of something halfway decent.
That's not a telling batrep. Glad people are trying out the game, but I'm really nonplussed about an under-developed Necron army going against BA that seem to have an idea of what their new units do. And on top of that, apparently using incorrect rules. Whatever.
Again, don't worry about list building and performance until the meta starts calming down. Playing against mass MC/Vehicle lists is very different from playing against mass Infantry lists and knowing what to expect in general is a huge part of list writing. We don't know what the meta is going to be, and other armies have changed as much or even more than our own have.
MoonlightSonata wrote: Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Yeah not sure what's up with that. If void blades are meant to have entropic strike, then they should have the Scarab ability to never wound on worse than a 5+.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, I wanted them to go that route a well. It could have even been a mortal wound on a 6, if they were worried about it being op. That would have been a nice nod to preward necrons.
Honestly, it seems like our characters are going to be really screwed in melee against anything but basic infantry. T5 or 6 isn't much protection anymore, and so many characters have stuff that inflicts multiple wounds. Two wounds from a Thunderhammer will kill any of our HQs, whilst we need to inflict at least 3 with a Warscythe.
People were berating me in a different thread for daring to say that our HQs were more fragile than they were in 7th, but they're still not looking survivable to me (at least not in any situation where they can't just hide behind other units).
MoonlightSonata wrote: So I was just trying to build a list for a quick test game against a friend shortly and I noticed that the Overlord/Lord/Cryptek has no option to take a Phylactery. In fact the the only HQ who gets a choice is the Destroyer Lord! WHAT!
I thought the same. I just don't understand that decision.
MoonlightSonata wrote: Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Clearly they thought Necrons had already exceeded the permitted number of interesting rules.
MoonlightSonata wrote: Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Oh wow, they are. Hyperphase and Voidblade both have the same values . Looks like they're going to need a good talking to on Facebook.
MoonlightSonata wrote: Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Oh wow, they are. Hyperphase and Voidblade both have the same values . Looks like their going to need a good talking too on Facebook.
The worst part is that they have different point costs.
MoonlightSonata wrote: Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
This happens if one tries to update all rules for models and units at once.
As said, we need to wait what the new meta will be.
First turn charges, lots of vehicles, horde armies, shooty armies, assault armies, or what not.
MoonlightSonata wrote: Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Oh wow, they are. Hyperphase and Voidblade both have the same values . Looks like their going to need a good talking too on Facebook.
The worst part is that they have different point costs.
Yeaah definitely a good talking too. I guess they didn't work on the necrons as hard
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: Has anyone done the math on the points of your collection before and after 8th? My army went up by a little over 20%. I figure that this was part of their solution to shorter games.
That and things being streamlined. Cutting things from both ends, seems to be the way of things, though some troops got cheaper.
changemod wrote: Not great for number of releases or big releases, no. Still, IA12 was pretty solid for us until 7th rolled around and was just short of entirely incompatible. My biggest complaint when it was interacting with 5th's codex in 6th was that the Tomb Stalker was terrible, yet had such a cool model.
Oh goodness, that model is amazing. It's just never been good. I don't even understand how they could make it only have 4 wounds when it's that big.
Even a unit of S6 Melta is pretty good next to current. 5+ instead of 4+ absolutely not great, but it's still Melta in units of 3-9.
Oh and the Tesseract Ark is another chance of something halfway decent.
Yeah, I mean, it's not bad, I just mean it still won't be cost effective as a solution to our issues.
MoonlightSonata wrote:Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Huh? You know that the melee weapons list is the one at the start of the Necron rules, not the bit in the points section, right? You can only take Hyperphase swords (AP-3), Staff of Light (AP-2 + shooting attack) or the Warscythe (+2S AP-4). They all seem different enough to me.
I had totally missed that cryptecs +1 to reanimation stacks! Szeres' master technomancer states that it does not stack but two normal crypteks (or Orikan) do!
The Necron list in that batrep is not great, warriors should be in 20 strong blobs to start with.
changemod wrote: Not great for number of releases or big releases, no. Still, IA12 was pretty solid for us until 7th rolled around and was just short of entirely incompatible. My biggest complaint when it was interacting with 5th's codex in 6th was that the Tomb Stalker was terrible, yet had such a cool model.
Oh goodness, that model is amazing. It's just never been good. I don't even understand how they could make it only have 4 wounds when it's that big.
Even a unit of S6 Melta is pretty good next to current. 5+ instead of 4+ absolutely not great, but it's still Melta in units of 3-9.
Oh and the Tesseract Ark is another chance of something halfway decent.
Yeah, I mean, it's not bad, I just mean it still won't be cost effective as a solution to our issues.
MoonlightSonata wrote:Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Huh? You know that the melee weapons list is the one at the start of the Necron rules, not the bit in the points section, right? You can only take Hyperphase swords (AP-3), Staff of Light (AP-2 + shooting attack) or the Warscythe (+2S AP-4). They all seem different enough to me.
Actually the options are sword, voidblade and warscythe. Voidblade and sword have the exact same stats; -3 ap and 1 damage, user strength.
MoonlightSonata wrote:Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Huh? You know that the melee weapons list is the one at the start of the Necron rules, not the bit in the points section, right? You can only take Hyperphase swords (AP-3), Staff of Light (AP-2 + shooting attack) or the Warscythe (+2S AP-4). They all seem different enough to me.
Yes that's what I'm referring to. They all start with a staff of light and you can replace them with (and bear with me here because the list is exhaustive);
Hyperphase Sword
Voidblade
Warscythe
The former two have the exact same weapon profile! S User, AP -3, D 1.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually the options are sword, voidblade and warscythe. Voidblade and sword have the exact same stats; -3 ap and 1 damage, user strength.
Huh, weird. I totally missed that passing over the rules. That is utterly bizarre.
My opinion is flipping a bit on Tomb Blades. For slightly less than the price of 3 Immortals, you can get essentially two pushed together plus almost triple the speed. Even just skirting the edges of range and popping away with max range Gauss isn't too bad, though I imagine Tesla is better if you're just harassing from 24". But a blitz rush with Gauss in Rapid Fire range is going to do surprising damage for their cost. 3 Gauss Blades with 3+ is 150, which is relatively cheap considering they're 2W each and 2+ in cover. You could ask a lot more for distraction pieces.
I'm also cooling a bit on Deathmarks. The shooting is very swingy especially against harder targets, but there's always that chance you get a bunch of MWs. A shooting unit that brings it's own DS for relatively cheap points is still really good, though.
I think 2 Destroyer + 1 Heavy units are the way to go. With being able to choose wound allocation, we can keep the Heavies safe to kill big targets (not that losing Destroyers is good, but keeping the Heavy alive is better against massive things).
I'm wiggly on Wraiths. I'm of the opinion that the enhanced durability and better generalist weapons makes them better against most targets, but they clearly are worse against big things. And since big things are going to be in the middle of the fray, where Wraiths are... I'm not sure on how that'll work. I suppose they're still fine with their speed if you want them to run flanks and threaten softer targets like Characters and shooting units, but they might have issues if they get stuck in with a Dreadnaught or Knight or something. Is MSU Wraith on the menu, little harass squads of 3 or 4? That way, if they get caught, it's not a huge point sink.
I love Flayed Ones, but I'm really cooling on them. The point jump may have been too much. They're really good statlines - don't get me wrong. 4 attacks BS3+ S4 rerolling wounds is good, especially if you get Imotekh in there. But, it's a very hefty point sink now. We went from 3.08 Flayed Ones per Wraith to 1.8 Flayed Ones per Wraith, which is a huge jump. Granted the new statline benefits them a lot, but that's expensive for infantry.
MoonlightSonata wrote: Something else that's laughable is the fact that of the three melee weapons available to lords, two of them have the exact same weapon profile!
Oh wow, they are. Hyperphase and Voidblade both have the same values . Looks like they're going to need a good talking to on Facebook.
We should definitely all leave comments about it (and the other things) there, the more the better, so it gets notice... but maybe not until the release? (I doubt they'll address anything that was leaked for the time being).
Nice. 10 Deathmarks and no Immortals with other bad tech thrown in. I can make a poor list too if I want to prove Necrons are bad... This is deja vu with 7th when people thought Decurion sucked because plopping down bricks of Warriors didn't work against various math-ups. Just because ready made formation combos are not being served up like TV dinners does not mean we lack the tools to create our own adventure playground for Necrons.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I had totally missed that cryptecs +1 to reanimation stacks! Szeres' master technomancer states that it does not stack but two normal crypteks (or Orikan) do!
The Necron list in that batrep is not great, warriors should be in 20 strong blobs to start with.
Nope, they don't. The Cryptek entry reads "... for models from freidnly <Dynasty> units within 3" of any friendly <Dynasty> Crypteks. It's still really good though.
I really think Deathmarks are gonna be superb. You get a totally safe Deep Strike within Rapid Fire range, which is 10 shots at minimum. At 20 points per model you can really spam that, plus they still retained that thing where they shoot on the opponents turn if they Deep Strike something.
That's pretty good utility and I definitely see myself using 2 squads at minimum.
Nice. 10 Deathmarks and no Immortals with other bad tech thrown in. I can make a poor list too if I want to prove Necrons are bad... This is deja vu with 7th when people thought Decurion sucked because plopping down bricks of Warriors didn't work against various math-ups. Just because ready made formation combos are not being served up like TV dinners does not mean we lack the tools to create our own adventure playground for Necrons.
This so much. All the doom and gloom when the game isn't even released yet is frustrating oh well.
Side note, I completely missed that c'tan are characters, meaning they are safe in blobs of infantry until they make a break and charge! Makes them a lot more survivable!
Doesn't make a lick of sense, that floating shards of star gods are less of a threat than a little robot but I'm not complaining!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: So then, the Technomancer buff cannot be stacked by having multiple vanilla Crypteks standing near the same unit?
Oh well.
Anyway, need some clarification:
What CAN come out of Monoliths and Night Scythes now?
All infantry with the dynasty keyword, so anything?
I still say flayed ones and deathmarks can come out. It gives you the option to set them up in their own deepstike area, or you can set them up in the tomb world. It says 'can' not 'must' when referring to deploying them in reserve.
What else was stopping other infantry units coming out?
Arachnofiend wrote: Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.
You're looking at about 6 heavy destroyers to kill a 70 point Rhino or 103 point Chimera. That's 450 points of very vulnerable shooting...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MoonlightSonata wrote: An 8th edition 2000pts Necrons vs Blood Angels battle report for our discussion and dissection:
Interesting, but a lot of incorrect rules:
-Vehicles CAN overwatch
-Can't fire out of Ghost Arks
-Can't stack Cryptek buffs (though not an issue in this game)
-Seems to imply multiple models were taken out by lascannons? Can't possibly happen, maybe was talking about chunks of wounds on vehicles?
In any case, this is about what I expected. Necrons cannot deal with vehicles and we're massively outgunned by just about everything. What a depressing read.
Well he brought three of our worst units in this edition, the obelisk, a CCB, and an Annihilation barge. That's over a third of his points, and predictably they did jack all. As he said in his summation, tesla still sucks. He brought too few of warriors, and he pulled them wrong otherwise Anrakyr would not have been targetable . He also didn't bring any anti-vehicles units such as scythe guard or heavy destroyers. His opponent brought a fairly solid comp with a focus on CC backed up by some hard hitting lascannon and Frag cannon support. If you look at the list it was never a contest.
If he had brought one of the many 2k lists from our army list forums including mine, the battle would have gone very differently.
skoffs wrote: So then, the Technomancer buff cannot be stacked by having multiple vanilla Crypteks standing near the same unit?
Oh well.
Anyway, need some clarification:
What CAN come out of Monoliths and Night Scythes now?
<Dynasty> Infantry Units, one per turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At 150-ish points there's nothing wrong with the Annihiliation Barge, especially if you're spamming Quantum Shielding.
Praetorians don't have <Dynasty>, so they're hoofing it. Which is fine, since they're fast and tough.
Really though I think the Monolith teleportation isn't that great. Not only do you have to wait a turn to use it, there isn't really a great thing to use it with.
Think about it: What do you want to come out of the Monolith?
Assault units are an ok choice, but not the best - if the opponent knows they're in there, they're just going to move away. The Monolith comes down 12" away and can't move, so unless they're running toward the big death brick you're getting at best a 9" charge but probably worse. Even if you bring down the Mono on T1, that's still not a decent charge until T3.
So you want to bring in a shooting unit - something that can interact with the board as soon as it pops out on T2 or so. But what really fits that? Realistically you would be looking for really powerful short range shooting that wouldn't be able to hoof it across the board by itself, like Meltas or Plasmas. But our stuff is all 24" on relatively sturdy bodies, so it's fine walking across or camping at one spot for the most part. Sure you might be able to get a surprise Rapid Fire turn with Immortals or Warriors, but that's not really that big of a deal.
The only real thing that teleporting a shooting unit with a Monolith brings over walking is that our shooting units are 5" and therefore the mobility helps. Which is true, to an extent, so it's not necessarily a bad thing to pop out Immortals or Warriors, it just feels a bit... maybe not wasted? But for sure not really the best use of nearly 400 points.
Not saying it's bad, of course. It's hard to kill, has good shooting, and while the teleport is subpar it's still a good thing. And there is always Deceiver shenanigans for crazy T1 board presence, which I expect to be used quite often. Just saying that it's a bit frustrating to finally have a really nice deep strike ability for our army, only to not have anything that really jumps out as gaining a massive benefit by deep striking.
I thought long and hard about the Monlith's 'porting ability and at the moment I can't see myself using it. Not only for the reasons you outline, but also because most of the stuff that can be used is the same stuff I want to be stacking buffs to RP on, which I can't do when they're all off by their lonesome.
If you want a surprise movement type unit, Obyron is the better choice IMO. Guaranteed charge that way. and he can do it with the same range of Infantry. I was thinking Lychguard or Flayed Ones for that business.
So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.
The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides. Ideally, a spyder with fabrication claws would go in the back to repair the ark.
This should theoretically be a durable and efficient formation that'll last for the game while laying down some fire.
A GA / Warrior / Spyder formation would look something like this .................................. ... .. S .................................... WGW ................... ................. W W
G - Ghost Ark W - Warrior S - Spyder
You can also try to squeeze a cryptek in there for extra hilarity. Ideally near the front, between the two warrior squads.
Keep in mind that the complete formation is quite expensive. Having just the two warrior squads in the front would be more common set up.
Fenris-77 wrote: I thought long and hard about the Monlith's 'porting ability and at the moment I can't see myself using it. Not only for the reasons you outline, but also because most of the stuff that can be used is the same stuff I want to be stacking buffs to RP on, which I can't do when they're all off by their lonesome.
If you want a surprise movement type unit, Obyron is the better choice IMO. Guaranteed charge that way. and he can do it with the same range of Infantry. I was thinking Lychguard or Flayed Ones for that business.
Obyron is also a bit hard to justify though. His teleport has to be towards Zahndrekh, and they move at the same speed. If you're moving Zahndrekh up the board to use Obyron to teleport Lychguard, why not just walk the dudes the same speed? You can use it to jump an extra 6" I suppose, but that's quite a few points for a 6" bonus move on one unit that you may or may not use. Unless you're really comitted to hiding Obyron + Lychguard in a corner for a few turns.
I'd pay for the Cryptek before I'd pay for the Spyder. The Ark is already one of, if not the most durable vehicle in the army. I'll take +1 to the RP and the 5++ over the repair from the Spyder. Nothign stopping you form doing both though, and the ability to block psychic powers may be necessary depending on your local meta.
My first goal is the Cryptek/Ghost Ark combo though - two chances a turn to RP a unit on 4+ is ridiculous.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.
The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.
GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.
Fenris-77 wrote: I'd pay for the Cryptek before I'd pay for the Spyder. The Ark is already one of, if not the most durable vehicle in the army. I'll take +1 to the RP and the 5++ over the repair from the Spyder. Nothign stopping you form doing both though, and the ability to block psychic powers may be necessary depending on your local meta.
My first goal is the Cryptek/Ghost Ark combo though - two chances a turn to RP a unit on 4+ is ridiculous.
Oh yeah, they synergize quite well. I'd imagine the GA, warrior and cryptek being the core of most necron armies.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.
The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.
GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.
Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause Well, there goes my formation then Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.
Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.
Fenris-77 wrote: I'd pay for the Cryptek before I'd pay for the Spyder. The Ark is already one of, if not the most durable vehicle in the army. I'll take +1 to the RP and the 5++ over the repair from the Spyder. Nothign stopping you form doing both though, and the ability to block psychic powers may be necessary depending on your local meta.
My first goal is the Cryptek/Ghost Ark combo though - two chances a turn to RP a unit on 4+ is ridiculous.
Oh yeah, they synergize quite well. I'd imagine the GA, warrior and cryptek being the core of most necron armies.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.
The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.
GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.
Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause Well, there goes my formation then Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.
Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.
I played a small 1k point game last night and took an overlord. I had him off on one side of the board with a unit of immortals with carbines. He buffed the carbines to 5+ for extra wounds with MWBD and he popped off the res orb on a unit of warriors that was down to 2 models all the way across the board. Really helped swing the tempo.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.
The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.
GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.
Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause Well, there goes my formation then Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.
In that case it might be better just to have a single, large warrior block in front of the ark.
Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.
If you res more than 35 points of models with it's use, it makes up its points. That's 3 (call it 4) warriors or 3 Immortals.
If you're running Silver Tide, it might make sense to throw one in. But if it only brings back an extra 1 or 2 dudes, it's pretty much bunk.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.
The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.
GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.
Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause Well, there goes my formation then Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.
In that case it might be better just to have a single, large warrior block in front of the ark.
Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.
If you res more than 35 points of models with it's use, it makes up its points. That's 3 (call it 4) warriors or 3 Immortals.
If you're running Silver Tide, it might make sense to throw one in. But if it only brings back an extra 1 or 2 dudes, it's pretty much bunk.
Yeah ok, I can see that. It would probably be better on high value units though, like destroyers and the elites.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.
The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.
GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.
Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause Well, there goes my formation then Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.
In that case it might be better just to have a single, large warrior block in front of the ark.
Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.
If you res more than 35 points of models with it's use, it makes up its points. That's 3 (call it 4) warriors or 3 Immortals.
If you're running Silver Tide, it might make sense to throw one in. But if it only brings back an extra 1 or 2 dudes, it's pretty much bunk.
Yeah ok, I can see that. It would probably be better on high value units though, like destroyers and the elites.
Yes that's true, you only need to bring back one Shieldguard to make the points back, or two Warscythe ones.
Can't use it on Praets because they don't have <Dynasty> lol. These guys look a bit worse every time I look at a rule, they really need to just go off by themselves and make something happen.
Indeed, the praets got shafted hard due to the keyword change. They have good stats and equipment, but as you can't really buff them they don't synergize with the army. Their stalker, at least, provides a buff to all necrons. Which makes sense, because the praets are not supposed to be part of any particular dynasty.
I think I'll invest in Ghost Arks and give the Res Orbs a pass. Spamming Quantum shielding seems like a really viable build IMO. If you just take infantry and vehicles with QS you mostly nerf all the big guns you're opponent laid out mucho points for. That same build also does a great job putting a eff-tom of dakka on the board, which seems like the right way to go for 8th.
So spammed QS and Spammed Crypeks/Arks/Infantry. That's what I'm thinking right now as a base.
vipoid wrote: Any thoughts regarding Overlord vs. Destroyer Lord?
It depends. If you are running destroyers you'd want a destroyer lord, as he can keep up with them and his buff is destroyer specific, and his statline is pretty nasty as well. Whilst the overlord buff does affect destroyers, you won't be able to apply it that often due to the difference in their speeds. If not, an overlord would be a better all rounder choice. Not as fast or heavy hitting, but he can march with the rest of the army and hand out his buff, which affects every necron of the same dynasty.
If you are going to use the destroyer lord as a buff dispenser, I would just give him the hyperphase sword. Its the cheapest option and its not a bad melee weapon.
Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb. I can't really see paying for a Ghost Ark to accompany a fast wing force like Destroyers, and the orbs one-shot might be a good compromise. Full squads of six is the way to go though, IMO anyway, with ot without the pair of upgraded heavy dudes.
Fenris-77 wrote: Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb. I can't really see paying for a Ghost Ark to accompany a fast wing force like Destroyers, and the orbs one-shot might be a good compromise. Full squads of six is the way to go though, IMO anyway, with ot without the pair of upgraded heavy dudes.
Yeah, the res orb would work on a d lord. Partly because of how pricey destroyers are now.
Just one successful roll and you made the orb's points back.
Fenris-77 wrote: Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb. I can't really see paying for a Ghost Ark to accompany a fast wing force like Destroyers, and the orbs one-shot might be a good compromise. Full squads of six is the way to go though, IMO anyway, with ot without the pair of upgraded heavy dudes.
Yeah, the res orb would work on a d lord. Partly because of how pricey destroyers are now.
Just one successful roll and you made the orb's points back.
Crypteks and Arks is probably still the way to go for the main infantry, but yeah, the Orb's probably almost an auto-buy for a Destroyer wing, now that I think about it, if you go that route.
My issue there is that 6 Destroyers (2 heavy) with a Res Orb Lord is like 580pts. For 24 wounds. Granted you're T5 and 3+, but still. That's a lot of points for 24 wounds where a lot of armies are going to very good at stripping wounds off T5-7 stuff. The Destroyers are about 480 pts for 18 wounds. They put out a lot of dice, but from a points for durability standpoint I think they're not top-drawer. You could get nearly 30 Immortals or 40 Warriors for the same points. It's not bad, not by any means, but it's not an auto include either.
So 6 Destroyers and a Lord, or 25 Warriors (or 18 Immortals), a Cryptek and a Ghost Ark? That's a tough decision.
Well, keep in mind that you aren't just paying for damage. You are paying for range and mobility as well.
A destroyer unit will always be firing their max potential at 24"
Warriors will only be firing their max potential at 12" range.
Not to mention that destroyer + lord has both rerolls to hit and wound, which increases their combat effectiveness by some degree. I would actually use destroyers as anti-tank / mc units, due to the multiple wounds they can deal. Against T8 units they wound on 5s, while warriors would need 6. Primaris marines will just hate them.
Whats wrong with using both, anyway? You still need troops in your army, so you're going to need warriors and immortals anyway.
Don't get me wrong, there are lots of reasons to take them. Range and multi-wound capability not the least among them. My worry is that squads of, say, three, will get wiped off the board asap this edition. If you want durability at all you probably need to go to five or six and add the Lord, at which point it's very pricey.
Reroll '1' Th and wound, not all failed rolls. Still very cool, but not exactly the same.
If you work that unit on the flanks and try to keep them out of range of the whole enemy gunline they should be plenty tough.
On a related topic, has anyone figured out why we're supposed to be excited about Wraiths this edition? No RP, no LM, so-so HtH, I'm just not seeing it. So far I'd invest in Destroyers pretty much every time. Am I missing something?
Fenris-77 wrote: Don't get me wrong, there are lots of reasons to take them. Range and multi-wound capability not the least among them. My worry is that squads of, say, three, will get wiped off the board asap this edition. If you want durability at all you probably need to go to five or six and add the Lord, at which point it's very pricey.
Reroll '1' Th and wound, not all failed rolls. Still very cool, but not exactly the same.
If you work that unit on the flanks and try to keep them out of range of the whole enemy gunline they should be plenty tough.
On a related topic, has anyone figured out why we're supposed to be excited about Wraiths this edition? No RP, no LM, so-so HtH, I'm just not seeing it. So far I'd invest in Destroyers pretty much every time. Am I missing something?
Slightly disagree. 3+/W3/T5 isn't going to get insta wiped from the board, especially since with long range and high speed they'll likely be sitting in cover the whole time for a 2+. Unless they're shooting multiple Lascannons at the squad, but there has to be a counter for everything (and you can hang a Cryptek with them for a 5++). According to the Price to Damage chart a few pages back, both Destroyer units are among the most points-efficient models against multi-wound enemies, so I think they're likely just going to be good fits, unless the meta goes full ham on hordes.
Wraiths are above-average all around melee units. They're not good against hard to crack targets - anything with high toughness, a 2+ save, or both, is going to laugh at them. But against most things in the game they'll be fighting at 3+/3+/AP-1, with multiple attacks and are hard to crack for most troops. They'll fill a similar role to before - they'll take apart pretty much any Infantry unit they come against that isn't rocking Terminator armor or multi-damage weapons, and even those will find them hard to shift.
They're also pretty good against vehicles, come to think of it - sure they'll struggle to hurt anything with T7 or more, but they can just tie it up and prevent it from shooting as well. Unless it has fly or is a punchy Dreadnaught-like, I suppose, but most Imperial or Chaos vehicle will get stuck against them. And if you kill one while the Wraiths are surrounding it, you might kill the riders off.
A lot of the points efficient stuff in 8th is weight of fire rather than multi-wound causing high S stuff. An army with good weight of fire shooting will indeed wipe a unit of three destroyers without too much of a problem. Add a couple of destroyers and that changes a little. My main point was that small units of Destroyers are probably sub-optimal, at least if I'm right about where I think the meta will settle out after people start getting games in.
Another context issue is what the rest of the army looks like. If you're running RP/Cryptek/Ark hordes up the middle, guys will quickly figure out how hard that shizz is to kill, at which point any softer targets will get a disproportional weight of fire. Destroyers make that list when fielded in small numbers IMO, hence my concern. In a different build where all the available targets are more equally kill-able it won't be as big an issue.
I have no issues with the Destroyers' damage output at all. That part's fine.
Here's the thing that confuses me... Zahndrekh's new Counter Tactics states that it happens "At the beginning of your opponent's turn".
Now, if this is targeting a character that also has an ability that happens at the begging of their turn, who's ability goes off first?
For instance, if it were a game of Zahndrekh vs. Zahndrekh, who has the "My Will Be Done" ability which occurs at the start of the turn, but the other Zahndrekh has the ability to choose a character and negate his aura abilities, is it negated, or does the active player use their "At the beginning of the turn" abilities first?
Also, Orikan's Master Chronomancer states that it gives a 5++ to friendly SAUTEKH INFANTRY... does that mean that Orikan ALSO gets this 5++, or would I have to field a Cryptek next to him so they can give each other Chronomancer?
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Here's the thing that confuses me... Zahndrekh's new Counter Tactics states that it happens "At the beginning of your opponent's turn".
Now, if this is targeting a character that also has an ability that happens at the begging of their turn, who's ability goes off first?
For instance, if it were a game of Zahndrekh vs. Zahndrekh, who has the "My Will Be Done" ability which occurs at the start of the turn, but the other Zahndrekh has the ability to choose a character and negate his aura abilities, is it negated, or does the active player use their "At the beginning of the turn" abilities first?
There's actually a sidebar on p178. If two or more abilities would activate at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets to decide what order they activate in.
However, does My Will Be Done actually count as an aura? I thought Aura abilities were ones that affected all units of a certain type within X" of the model? MWBD only affects a single unit. Are you sure it's an aura?
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Here's the thing that confuses me... Zahndrekh's new Counter Tactics states that it happens "At the beginning of your opponent's turn".
Now, if this is targeting a character that also has an ability that happens at the begging of their turn, who's ability goes off first?
For instance, if it were a game of Zahndrekh vs. Zahndrekh, who has the "My Will Be Done" ability which occurs at the start of the turn, but the other Zahndrekh has the ability to choose a character and negate his aura abilities, is it negated, or does the active player use their "At the beginning of the turn" abilities first?
There's actually a sidebar on p178. If two or more abilities would activate at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets to decide what order they activate in.
However, does My Will Be Done actually count as an aura? I thought Aura abilities were ones that affected all units of a certain type within X" of the model? MWBD only affects a single unit. Are you sure it's an aura?
I'm not sure on what qualifies as an Aura. Does the wording "ALL units within X inches" declare an aura, or can simply the wording of "Select A unit within X inches". I've gone thinking that any ability that states "within X inches" makes it an aura.
Has anyone run the numbers on flayed ones? I really want to run a max size unit to tie up front lines with some wraiths to go hunt characters but I'm pretty new and not sure if FO are actually just terrible or not.
2000 points really does not feel like a lot when you want to run 20 man units of anything.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Here's the thing that confuses me... Zahndrekh's new Counter Tactics states that it happens "At the beginning of your opponent's turn".
Now, if this is targeting a character that also has an ability that happens at the begging of their turn, who's ability goes off first?
For instance, if it were a game of Zahndrekh vs. Zahndrekh, who has the "My Will Be Done" ability which occurs at the start of the turn, but the other Zahndrekh has the ability to choose a character and negate his aura abilities, is it negated, or does the active player use their "At the beginning of the turn" abilities first?
There's actually a sidebar on p178. If two or more abilities would activate at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets to decide what order they activate in.
However, does My Will Be Done actually count as an aura? I thought Aura abilities were ones that affected all units of a certain type within X" of the model? MWBD only affects a single unit. Are you sure it's an aura?
I'm not sure on what qualifies as an Aura. Does the wording "ALL units within X inches" declare an aura, or can simply the wording of "Select A unit within X inches". I've gone thinking that any ability that states "within X inches" makes it an aura.
added presentable sheet where the calculation columns are hidden
Added my will be done toggle
added color coding so you can quickly spot the best units for a given task
Added number of targets
added target points
Added volleys to kill based on damage done and models in unit, efficiency is nice, but sometimes you need that unit dead asap and this will tell you which unit can do it the fastest.
added ratio of attackers points to defenders points, this is a per volley calculation telling you how many volleys it will take for the unit to earn it's points back shooting at the target. 1 is amazing 3 is average and more than 3 means that the attacking unit is unlikely to earn it's points back from shooting at the unit.
Fixed Flayed ones not rerolling to wound
High power Blast from the doomsday ark will now get the correct number of shots shooting at units of 10 or larger
Fenris-77 wrote: Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb. I can't really see paying for a Ghost Ark to accompany a fast wing force like Destroyers, and the orbs one-shot might be a good compromise. Full squads of six is the way to go though, IMO anyway, with ot without the pair of upgraded heavy dudes.
Yeah, the res orb would work on a d lord. Partly because of how pricey destroyers are now.
Just one successful roll and you made the orb's points back.
Crypteks and Arks is probably still the way to go for the main infantry, but yeah, the Orb's probably almost an auto-buy for a Destroyer wing, now that I think about it, if you go that route.
My issue there is that 6 Destroyers (2 heavy) with a Res Orb Lord is like 580pts. For 24 wounds. Granted you're T5 and 3+, but still. That's a lot of points for 24 wounds where a lot of armies are going to very good at stripping wounds off T5-7 stuff. The Destroyers are about 480 pts for 18 wounds. They put out a lot of dice, but from a points for durability standpoint I think they're not top-drawer. You could get nearly 30 Immortals or 40 Warriors for the same points. It's not bad, not by any means, but it's not an auto include either.
So 6 Destroyers and a Lord, or 25 Warriors (or 18 Immortals), a Cryptek and a Ghost Ark? That's a tough decision.
I think that's why I lean to the Doomsday Ark over the Heavy Destroyers for that reason. Doomsday can trade fire with Lascannon batteries at range all day, even though it's D3 shots against 3 Heavy Destroyers...as long as all three survive. And if you need all hands to the deck to repel a swarm of Genestealers or whatever, then it's packing the flayer firepower of ten warriors on a M12" platform.
Doomsday is less mobile when shooting the big gun for sure, but it's whole board range, has an extra point of AP for blasting through any kind of possible cover, and there is no Jump-Shoot-Jump, so I see you/you see me rules.
You can stick them towards a corner, close off plasma drop points and the like with some Scarab Bases, and fire away. Bring a Triarch Stalker with Heavy Gauss for the reroll Destroyers get. 2 DoomArks, 1 Stalker for similar pricepoint to the 6 Destroyers + Res Orb Lord.
.
On the spreadsheet warriors should be 120pts for ten not 130 and tomb blades with gauss blasters have to pay for 2 blasters not just 1 so they cost 126pts for 3 instead of 99.
Yeah, but the same problem as before applies; they aren't great when there's a lot of los obscuring terrain, like in an urban environment. Doomsday deals a lot of damage, but only if your opponent wanders into its line of fire.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, but the same problem as before applies; they aren't great when there's a lot of los obscuring terrain, like in an urban environment. Doomsday deals a lot of damage, but only if your opponent wanders into its line of fire.
Very rare are are the games on boards I've played, including tournaments, where LoS would shut out the use of a Doomsday under 8th rules.
Having just watched the Warhammer Live battle report, it raised 3 really interesting things which I'd realised, but didn't quite realise how much of a game changer they were:
1) Characters must be the closest unit if you want to shoot at them. You cannot shoot at units in combat. Therefore, if there's a combat happening anywhere between you and a character, that character cannot be shot at. If the character is interspersed with a unit in combat, it's basically invincible to all but snipers. That makes certain AOE buffs extremely potent.
2) It is much harder to kill your opponent generally. Not only have vehicles become more survivable, all large model count armies have. Additionally, you control objectives by having the most models close to them as possible. That means that bodies on the table is much more meaningful than it first appears.
3) Even slightly touching a vehicle in combat completely stops it firing in it's next shooting phase unless they can fly. In the live game, a land Raider absolutely wreaked havoc until enemies got near - then it was useless because its only options were retreat or make some very weak attacks. That means we don't HAVE to deal with vehicles as long as we can just reach them in combat. In particular, you MUST consolidate to the nearest enemy model - kill an enemy unit walling off a vehicle and you will instantly lock up the vehicle with consolidation moves.
Reconsidering that, it makes me less worried about vehicle heavy armies. We don't need to kill them - just render them useless somehow. So what if there were some super fast, super tough units which could aid this - Wraiths, perhaps?
I've been very negative about what we can't do. It's time to knuckle down and get to grips with what we beat everyone else at.
Imotekh, 2 units of flayed one and a Deceiver is deceptively strong. In combat, if you can get the effects to work together and use my will be done, you have flayed ones charging 2D6"+1, hitting on 2+ rerolling, S4 rerolling to wound with 4 attacks each AND the enemy is at -2 morale. Additionally, this detachment gives +1 CP, so you could afford to reroll one of the dice in the charge. If you deep strike, that puts a 9" charge down to 8" from MWBD, If you reroll the lowest, assuming a failed charge, the maths becomes pretty tricky - assuming you don't waste a CP when it's a double one (that's an impossible charge no matter how you reroll), your chances become 125/216, or ~57% to make that charge. Still not amazing odds, but something. To put that into perspective, a unit of 10 will kill ?9.7 MEQ per turn, then force a morale check at -2 as if they'd inflicted 11.7. Against Ork Boyz, you kill ~24.3 and they test as if it was ~26.3. Ld effects are actually pretty strong.
Zahndrekh is really, really geared for combat. All his abilities really want the enemy up close and personal. This makes him pair fantastically with Szeras or Orikan, both of whom will buff units nearby in combat.
Szeras grows on me every time I read his rules. Worst case, you buff 1 unit to S5 and have a pocket lascannon. Best case, you just made a blob of 20 warriors T5 with a big gun hidden in the middle and which reanimates on 4+.
Orikan seems very good with Scythe Lychguard. Instead of paying 70 points to give a unit sword and shield, you could pay 143 to give them a 5++, +1 to reanimate, a character with an AP-3 D3 damage weapon who might suddenly become super tough. It's not the world's best unit, but it's definitely pretty solid - excellent against tough assault units. Even if you sit him in a unit of 20 warriors and do nothing else, it's a pretty good anti-charge defence.
I think Anrakyr buffs himself to 4 attacks. Either way, this guy is amazing - even if you don't want to run a dedicated combat unit, the attacks buff is always relevant if you expect to get charged (you should - it's almost unavoidable as far as I can see). Additionally, mind in the machine is pretty great when it goes off, the S8 warscythe is a very nice buff and the Tachyon Arrow is a cool bonus, if not always that meaningful.
Hopefully everyone realises how incredibly strong Immortals are now. They're actually slightly ridiculous - S5 is as good as S7 against T4 or T8, and they're just extremely cost effective. You basically can't go wrong with these guys as long as you protect them from being charged.
Triarch Stalkers seem great. They don't cost you victory points in Big Guns Never Tire, and they're much more durable than Heavy Destroyers. Even ignoring the Quantum shielding, they're more than 3 times as durable as a Heavy Destroyer and hand out buffs, as well as being quite reasonable against vehicles in combat. It's a shame they lose BS from moving and degrade in ability, otherwise I'd always be taking one.
C'tan are still surprisingly vulnerable to big guns if exposed, but hidden away they are quite deadly. Now, the T C'tan strikes me as poor, but I would happily take the Deceiver or Nightbringer in most lists, at least for now. I definitely feel like Antimatter Meteor is the right pick 99% of the time, as it's the only one almost guaranteed damage, but Seismic Assault can be great if you're worried about hordes. I don't think that times arrow is ever worth it - it only starts beating anti-matter meteor at 3 wound models and becomes useless against things with more than 5 wounds. The meteor is just incredibly reliable mortal wounds, which is great.
I'm a big fan of the Doom Scythe. It's got good damage output which is hard to hide from, plugs a hole in our anti-tank, and can't be assaulted very easily. Not much more to say - it's a flyer with guns. Fragile but strong.
I feel like Wraiths get a bad rap because they're not the slaughter machines they once were in assault. Whilst true, they're still M12" T5 W3 3++ for 38 points; it's hard to argue they're not good. They're fast, they're durable and they will hurt things in assault. An absolute minimum size unit of them is only 114 points, has 9 S6 AP-1 attacks and is pretty tough to shift while still killing 2 MEQ per turn. 20 Genestealers, one of the most incredibly efficient melee units in the game, buffed by a Broodlord to get +1 to hit, goes 7.4 wounds. That means that your 114 point unit just survived one of the most brutal assaults in the game. The real downside is no reanimation compared to Praetorians, but they're still good. In fact, against MEQ, they're practically the same at fighting after 2 round of combat, and slightly better after 3. Sounds good to me.
Scarabs are also hard to oversell. Okay, they die like flies to anything which shoots at them. However, at a little more than 4 points a wound, they're relatively disposable, easy to hide and quite deadly in combat. Maybe the scarab farm is dead, but these guys are still kicking.
Tomb blades are 2 Immortals stuck together with 14" movement, +1T and a worse save. Solid unit. Not much more to say - they're excellent all around, and it's possible that an army of these without many troops might work well.
Heavy Destroyers get special mention here for being the best AT we have. You seriously pay for it, but there's something to be said about a lascannon which can move 10" without penalty.
Monoliths are growing on me. I'm not sure exactly what archetype of list they fit, but they seem really quite good. Point for point, they are nearly as good at shooting as an Immortal with Gauss at 12"-24" and better for T6+ - buffed with a Stalker shooting, they're very formidable indeed. However, they're surprisingly "easy" to kill - 16 lascannon shots will put it down quickly. Still, they're pretty fun and I'll definitely try them at least once.
So yeah, what do people think will do well? What are you excited to try most?
Imhotek, a C'Tan and two units of Flayed Ones is a minimum of what, 650pts? It better be at least deceptively good.
I really like the Stalker model, and I really would like to use at least one. However, at the cheapest its just under 160 pits and only has one gun in any of the builds. The expensive build, with the twin HGC, is only 20 pts less than a Doomsday Ark, which has a much bigger gun. I just have trouble finding room for the Stalker when I'm building lists. If I'm spamming RP, which is what I'm current;y playing with, I'd almost always prefer another Ghost Ark. IDK, the model is cool enough I may just have to fight through that.
Uh, I think we have a problem with Anrakyr.
Because he lacks the <Dynasty> keyword he can't get a ride from Night Scythes or Monoliths.
I can't see any way to effectively get him into combat any time before turn 3 (unless enemies come to him). As the ideal use for him is to accompany a unit of Warscythe Lychguard, who CAN get rides, that does not bode well for that combo.
I mean, you can use the Deceiver but that seems like kind of a misuse of Grand Illusion.
I like Imotekh + Flayed Ones, but the real problem he has is that he can't MWBD Flayed Ones that come in from using their Haunting Horrors Placement rule because that happens at the end of the move phase while MWBD is at the start.
If they're moved up by the Deciever, then he can MWBD them but nobody can charge
Now you can move the Deciever and Imotekh up with Grand Illusion, Haunting Horror in your Flayed Ones and try for that first turn standard charge using rerolls. They won't get MWBD but they will hit first on 3+ rerolling 1's, and blend with Str4 rerolling.
Also I think what you can do very reliably if you run Imotekh + Flayed Ones + Deciever is not necessarily have it as a turn one play, but a reliable turn two play instead. If you have first turn advantage, use the Deciever to Grand Illusion himself, Imotekh, and a Res Orb Cryptek forward, and bubblewrap everyone in a unit of Flayed Ones 20-strong, and sit there.
If the enemy can't blow up your entire unit of Flayed Ones in their next turn (requires shooting/assaulting 20 T4 4+/5++) models then you've got 4+ RP followed by a second 4+ RP to bring them back, then away you go with everybody.
Are 20 Flayed Ones (1x20 or 2x10), Imotekh, and the Deciever expensive? Yes, it's 873 points, and a touch over 1000 with the Cryptek, but this force can easily blend half a parked army itself. Engage on a wide front with the Flayed Ones where the enemy is susceptible to morale and units will crumble.
Now you can hide a C'tan (wich is a character with less than 10 wounds) in a unit scarab may be to bring him fastly in cac and kill that vehicules you have trouble with 4 hits and 2+ for d6 wound each can kill them fast.
skoffs wrote: Uh, I think we have a problem with Anrakyr.
Because he lacks the <Dynasty> keyword he can't get a ride from Night Scythes or Monoliths.
I can't see any way to effectively get him into combat any time before turn 3 (unless enemies come to him). As the ideal use for him is to accompany a unit of Warscythe Lychguard, who CAN get rides, that does not bode well for that combo.
I mean, you can use the Deceiver but that seems like kind of a misuse of Grand Illusion.
Basically, we REALLY need the Veil back.
:(
I'm not too fussed, I think he's the go-to guy alongside Szeras for just getting a whole block of Immortals and walking up the board in a silver tide. +1 Attack is an amazing aura, on the Sanguinor level. Transportation tricks are just taking away from the raw bodies you should have in an Anrakyr list.
Battalion 1
Anrakyr
Lord with Warscythe, Res Orb
10 Immortals
10 Immortals
10 Immortals
Battalion 2
Szeras
Orikan
10 Immortals
10 Immortals
10 Immortals
1592 points, 9 CP, add up to whatever points level or swap out for bigger blocks of warriors.
1592 points, 9 CP, add up to whatever points level or swap out for bigger blocks of warriors.
Probably carbines on the first battalion of immortals at least to benefit from MWBD.
Also, as a new player, it seems like everyone is talking about tactics in reference to just a total war kind of match. How much of this is relevant in an more objective based match? All I've played is a quick 1000pt game so I'm not sure I know how drsatically things can change.
So I did my first 2k 8th ed game, my necrons vs blood angels, it was a pretty big victory on my part, but the Blood angels player got my scythe guard, 20 man warrior blob, and two of my wraiths. The 20 man warrior blob was roadkill for the a large death company, and he got lucky, rolled a six and got to assault again with his death company after wiping out my warriors, so got to attack my scythe guard. I'll have full battle report up in the morning (with pictures) but just wanted to say I had a fight against a decent BA army, had it in had the whole time, and would have tabled at the loss of less than 500 points.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, but the same problem as before applies; they aren't great when there's a lot of los obscuring terrain, like in an urban environment. Doomsday deals a lot of damage, but only if your opponent wanders into its line of fire.
Very rare are are the games on boards I've played, including tournaments, where LoS would shut out the use of a Doomsday under 8th rules.
Cover for sure, but what are cover saves to AP-5?
fair enough. I tend to play on more urban environments, so ymmv.
Eyjio wrote: Szeras grows on me every time I read his rules. Worst case, you buff 1 unit to S5 and have a pocket lascannon. Best case, you just made a blob of 20 warriors T5 with a big gun hidden in the middle and which reanimates on 4+.
Do you think he's worth it over a standard Cryptek or Orikan - both of which give surrounding units a 5++?
Hopefully everyone realises how incredibly strong Immortals are now. They're actually slightly ridiculous - S5 is as good as S7 against T4 or T8, and they're just extremely cost effective. You basically can't go wrong with these guys as long as you protect them from being charged.
Triarch Stalkers seem great. They don't cost you victory points in Big Guns Never Tire, and they're much more durable than Heavy Destroyers. Even ignoring the Quantum shielding, they're more than 3 times as durable as a Heavy Destroyer and hand out buffs, as well as being quite reasonable against vehicles in combat. It's a shame they lose BS from moving and degrade in ability, otherwise I'd always be taking one.
Losing BS for moving seems a bit silly.
I'm less bothered about the degeneration as they can repair themselves to get back over the thresholds.
C'tan are still surprisingly vulnerable to big guns if exposed, but hidden away they are quite deadly. Now, the T C'tan strikes me as poor, but I would happily take the Deceiver or Nightbringer in most lists, at least for now. I definitely feel like Antimatter Meteor is the right pick 99% of the time, as it's the only one almost guaranteed damage, but Seismic Assault can be great if you're worried about hordes. I don't think that times arrow is ever worth it - it only starts beating anti-matter meteor at 3 wound models and becomes useless against things with more than 5 wounds. The meteor is just incredibly reliable mortal wounds, which is great.
Regarding Time's Arrow, I think the main point is that it can target characters. It's a long-shot for sure, but the potential to kill a 4- or 5-wound character without them ever getting to make a save isn't to be underestimated.
It's not reliable initially, but if a character (or MC or Vehicle) starts to lose wounds, then this could be a very good way to get those last couple of wounds. Especially if the target has a good invulnerable save or some other means of protection.
Tomb blades are 2 Immortals stuck together with 14" movement, +1T and a worse save. Solid unit. Not much more to say - they're excellent all around, and it's possible that an army of these without many troops might work well.
Out of interest, how would you run them? The base one with 2 Gauss Blasters is 42pts, would you buy any of the upgrades?
Heavy Destroyers get special mention here for being the best AT we have. You seriously pay for it, but there's something to be said about a lascannon which can move 10" without penalty.
Would you run them on their own or would you hide them in units of regular Destroyers?
Eyjio wrote: So yeah, what do people think will do well? What are you excited to try most?
I want to use my Destroyer Lord and Triarch Stalker (mostly because I converted some models for them that I love using), so I'll probably try a Destroyer Wing of some sort or other.
What do you guys think of the Warscythe vs. the Staff of Light on the D. Lord and other characters?
I'm quite interested to see how the new RPs pan out. I still find it depressing that our HQs don't get them anymore, but bringing back models on full wounds could be interesting. As could the ability to bring back models that have previously failed their RP roll.
Out of interest, do you think infantry-Necrons could be viable in this edition? (I can't remember what it was called - Silver Tide or something like that?)
On the D-Lord, I might go Warscythe. You don't want to be in HtH with him, but I might like the lunch. My thinking is that if you're within Staff range, you might also reasonably be thinking about charging stuff. On most other characters I think I'd go staff, generally speaking HtH isn't where I want to be.
On a general note, has anyone found any reason why a unit moved via the Ghostwalk Mantle can't charge the same turn it moves? I haven't, and the ability to autocharge with an Infantry unit of my choice seems too good to pass up is almost any list.Either Lychguard or Flayed ones could do a decent job against most units short of main assault units and big beatstick characters. I can't think of a reason not to include him at this point.
Fenris-77 wrote: On the D-Lord, I might go Warscythe. You don't want to be in HtH with him, but I might like the lunch. My thinking is that if you're within Staff range, you might also reasonably be thinking about charging stuff. On most other characters I think I'd go staff, generally speaking HtH isn't where I want to be.
On a general note, has anyone found any reason why a unit moved via the Ghostwalk Mantle can't charge the same turn it moves? I haven't, and the ability to autocharge with an Infantry unit of my choice seems too good to pass up is almost any list.Either Lychguard or Flayed ones could do a decent job against most units short of main assault units and big beatstick characters. I can't think of a reason not to include him at this point.
Yep you can charge no problems. If you have first turn you can blitz with Deciever + Zandrekh + MWBD Immortals/Warriors opening up a hole for Obyron and assault unit of choice.
Given Zandrekh is so close-range oriented himself, this is pretty much the way I'd always go with him.
Quite surprised to see Kutlakh and Toholk there when they don't have models. I'm still not super hopeful about Necron's FW stuff but if it's good then it'll be nice to get them off the shelf. End of June can't come fast enough.
Do you think he's worth it over a standard Cryptek or Orikan - both of which give surrounding units a 5++?
Absolutely, though I feel they're for different units. The 5++ is fantastic for its cost, but Orikan can't shoot; the Cryptek only gives a 5++ vs shooting and doesn't want to be within 12" if it can be avoided as it's terrible in assault. That means that Orikan wants to jump into a melee unit (otherwise his abilities are largely wasted) and the Cryptek is ~100 points for better reanimation and a 5++ for a backfield unit. If either get sniped out then you lose all their benefits. Meanwhile, Szeras buffs troop blobs, and even if he dies they keep that buff. While usually a 5++ is stronger than the buffs, those buffs are incredibly meaningful - 20 warriors firing at BS 2+ are 25% more deadly, T5 is 3% more durable against S4 small arms and S5, while a little lacking, is a reasonable deterrent to being charged. On top of that, he has a really good AT weapon which can be used after advancing (which he might want to do to hand out a buff at the end of movement, for example) and is surprisingly decent in a pinch against marines in combat. I think there's a place for all of them, but Szeras really takes my eye.
Regarding Time's Arrow, I think the main point is that it can target characters. It's a long-shot for sure, but the potential to kill a 4- or 5-wound character without them ever getting to make a save isn't to be underestimated.
It's not reliable initially, but if a character (or MC or Vehicle) starts to lose wounds, then this could be a very good way to get those last couple of wounds. Especially if the target has a good invulnerable save or some other means of protection.
Is that true? If so, that's really powerful. I guess if it's not a shooting attack there's no reason it shouldn't be true. I also missed that it's the only power which doesn't have to target the closest enemy unit, so I guess you could charge one unit and time's arrow units in the enemy's backfield (with a 2+ to kill many things through cover). That might've just convinced me that it's the best power by far then - removing an enemy character can be utterly lethal for some armies; guard rely on orders for example. Most characters seem to have 6 wounds though, so there's that. I dunno, maybe it pairs well with Deathmarks - fire to reduce wounds, then outright remove them from the game. Might be worth a shot.
Out of interest, how would you run them? The base one with 2 Gauss Blasters is 42pts, would you buy any of the upgrades?
Probably not to be honest. I'm not sure how important ignoring cover is now, because I don't think that intervening models (i.e. hiding guys behind tanks) or firing through ruins actually confers it any more which is huge. a 5++ seems good on paper, but unless that shot is AP-3 or better, it's not as good as shieldvanes. So, shieldvanes are what I would tend towards if I was going to buy anything, but usually I'll probably skip all the upgrades.
Would you run them on their own or would you hide them in units of regular Destroyers?
I'll probably try both. My fear with running them alone is that they're easy VP for the opponent in 2 of the missions, and they give you more units so you're less likely to choose who goes first. My issue with running Destroyers is that they seem underwhelming on paper - a lot worse than Tomb Blades at shooting and as many points per wound. I might be wrong though - it may turn out that their combination of fast, tough, counts as infantry for cover and being able to disengage from combat at will gives them a huge bonus for objective missions. We'll see.
I want to use my Destroyer Lord and Triarch Stalker (mostly because I converted some models for them that I love using), so I'll probably try a Destroyer Wing of some sort or other.
What do you guys think of the Warscythe vs. the Staff of Light on the D. Lord and other characters?
I'm quite interested to see how the new RPs pan out. I still find it depressing that our HQs don't get them anymore, but bringing back models on full wounds could be interesting. As could the ability to bring back models that have previously failed their RP roll.
Out of interest, do you think infantry-Necrons could be viable in this edition? (I can't remember what it was called - Silver Tide or something like that?)
I feel like the Staff of Light is a great choice for D Lords and not much else, as I imagine usually you'll want to disengage from combat rather than rush in. I dunno though, we'll see how it pans out.
Characters kind of get RP in the form of living metal. It's not the same, sure ,but it is at least automatic. I sort of think infantry heavy lists might be one of the better Necron lists in this edition to be honest; my other bet is on Tomb Blade heavy armies just due to the sheer effectiveness of gauss blasters at half range; a unit of 6 puts 24 shots out at 12" for 252 points, which is quite amazing.
Regarding Time's Arrow, I think the main point is that it can target characters. It's a long-shot for sure, but the potential to kill a 4- or 5-wound character without them ever getting to make a save isn't to be underestimated.
It's not reliable initially, but if a character (or MC or Vehicle) starts to lose wounds, then this could be a very good way to get those last couple of wounds. Especially if the target has a good invulnerable save or some other means of protection.
Is that true? If so, that's really powerful. I guess if it's not a shooting attack there's no reason it shouldn't be true. I also missed that it's the only power which doesn't have to target the closest enemy unit, so I guess you could charge one unit and time's arrow units in the enemy's backfield (with a 2+ to kill many things through cover). That might've just convinced me that it's the best power by far then - removing an enemy character can be utterly lethal for some armies; guard rely on orders for example. Most characters seem to have 6 wounds though, so there's that. I dunno, maybe it pairs well with Deathmarks - fire to reduce wounds, then outright remove them from the game. Might be worth a shot.
What makes me think it's legitimate is Imotekh's "pick an enemy unit in the shooting phase" ability specifies that it can't target Characters, while the C'tans Times Arrow doesn't.
I think Time's Arrow is legit really good against certain armies - minor characters tend to have a 4 wound profile, and you can 5 or 6 em, backed up with a reroll - 50% removal chance.
Outside of characters, even just splatting a model from a Terminator or Bike type squad is useful.
Yeah, I'm 100% going to try time's arrow. It seems like it could be brutal; one roll could just remove a commissar or even an Inquisitor if you get lucky. That's a serious asset. I think I slightly prefer the Nightbringer too; while redeploying units seems very good, the ability to do D6 shots hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ at AP-4 and doing D3 damage each seems amazing. It's like a super good pocket battlecannon which is weak to vehicles.
Also, just so I'm clear, for multiple wound shots you have to allocate wounds one at a time, then save rolls, then roll for damage, then allocating the next wound, rolling, etc right? I want to make sure I'm going to play it correctly going into 8th.
I'm wondering what everyone else is planning in terms of lists.
Right now I'm thinking I still want the super mobility I had to begin with. 2 units of Warriors in Arks, 2 Immortals in Scythes, a single Tesla squad marching behind, and 3 squads of Tomb Blades.
However, what's the easiest AT to throw in there? Stalkers seem like the best bet because 2 Gauss Cannon shots seems it can be brutal if you have rerolls from one of the HQs...
So I've seen alot of talk about using scythe guard out of a night scythe and I think this is risky. Remember, if you don't have another NS to bring them in with and they are in reserve when it goes down they are destroyed. Also remember, you disembark at the start of your movement phase meaning you need to fly the NS in front of them and wait a turn but not only do you need to clench your ass and hope it survives, you need to pray they don't have fact models that can simply surround the models base disallowing your unit from being allowed to arrive...
Away from the rules, so maybe I am remembering the reserve rules wrong, but either way, the surrounding of the model makes flying it close for a reasonable charge risky.
For that reason I think I still like praetorians much better.
Red Corsair wrote: So I've seen alot of talk about using scythe guard out of a night scythe and I think this is risky. Remember, if you don't have another NS to bring them in with and they are in reserve when it goes down they are destroyed. Also remember, you disembark at the start of your movement phase meaning you need to fly the NS in front of them and wait a turn but not only do you need to clench your ass and hope it survives, you need to pray they don't have fact models that can simply surround the models base disallowing your unit from being allowed to arrive...
Away from the rules, so maybe I am remembering the reserve rules wrong, but either way, the surrounding of the model makes flying it close for a reasonable charge risky.
For that reason I think I still like praetorians much better.
I think the idea is that you fly in 3 Night Scythes in front of the enemy army like some sort of Living Metal Shell game.
I'm not really one for relying on night scythes, they still have that lame one 90 degree turn per round and a 20" minimum move. The awkwardness of moving them around is made worse by the fact that if they fly off of the board they are destroyed. Death from the skies killed flyers in 7th ed, but flyers in 8th ed were stillborn.
Honestly though the scythe guard have two purposes in life, LoS on a 2+ and counter charging enemy CC units. They will never catch a vehicle unless it comes stupid close, and are unlikely to survive sustained fire. On the bright side they are pretty cheap, so if they don't do much you are not out much, and when they do work they can quite easily double or triple their points.
Well bear in mind that weapon facing isn't an issue anymore, so you don't need to turn your scythes to actually face whoever they're shooting, which as always the biggest reason to need to fly off the board. Without that, you can fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long, and a hull plus 24 inch bubble of 8 S7 tesla shots should be fairly universally able to find something to shoot most of the time.
So the big concern is that flying in that little square looks ridiculous and isn't particularly good simulationism.
What's our best option against enemy fliers? I'm watching my girlfriend fight an IG army and her Space Marine planes are looking pretty scary; we're not great at taking out high wound units already and we don't have any way to shoot at fliers without penalty. I have a feeling that trying to punch a Stormraven out of the sky with flying assault units probably wouldn't work.
I don't think the Scythes are that bad at all. Sure 8 shots of Tesla each isn't the best, but it isn't the worst either at clearing out a screen of chaff. Three will get you a CP from the flyer detachment, you fly them up to a corner of the enemy army turn one, turn two a block of 20 Warriors jumps out of one capable of dealing 60 Str4 attacks (40 Shooting/20 Charge)
Instead of running a QS vehicle army, you run a no QS army.
Flyer Wing Detachment
Scythe
Scythe
Scythe
Spearhead Detachment
Destroyer Lord
3 Heavy Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
Monolith
20 Warriors
20 Warriors
changemod wrote: Well bear in mind that weapon facing isn't an issue anymore, so you don't need to turn your scythes to actually face whoever they're shooting, which as always the biggest reason to need to fly off the board. Without that, you can fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long, and a hull plus 24 inch bubble of 8 S7 tesla shots should be fairly universally able to find something to shoot most of the time.
So the big concern is that flying in that little square looks ridiculous and isn't particularly good simulationism.
Could a horde army successfully block your path, or lead you towards a corner from which you couldn't make a successful 90 deg turn and still fly 20"?
changemod wrote: Well bear in mind that weapon facing isn't an issue anymore, so you don't need to turn your scythes to actually face whoever they're shooting, which as always the biggest reason to need to fly off the board. Without that, you can fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long, and a hull plus 24 inch bubble of 8 S7 tesla shots should be fairly universally able to find something to shoot most of the time.
So the big concern is that flying in that little square looks ridiculous and isn't particularly good simulationism.
Could a horde army successfully block your path, or lead you towards a corner from which you couldn't make a successful 90 deg turn and still fly 20"?
In theory. Staying near the middle when possible and huge max movement speeds makes that pretty unlikely.
Honestly it's only a -1 to hit and flying things can charge now, you're better off just killing it than trying to cover every single position it could move to.
changemod wrote: Well bear in mind that weapon facing isn't an issue anymore, so you don't need to turn your scythes to actually face whoever they're shooting, which as always the biggest reason to need to fly off the board. Without that, you can fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long, and a hull plus 24 inch bubble of 8 S7 tesla shots should be fairly universally able to find something to shoot most of the time.
So the big concern is that flying in that little square looks ridiculous and isn't particularly good simulationism.
I love it. Makes it seem like Flyers are an enemy Boss in 40k Arcade Mode!
changemod wrote: Well bear in mind that weapon facing isn't an issue anymore, so you don't need to turn your scythes to actually face whoever they're shooting, which as always the biggest reason to need to fly off the board. Without that, you can fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long, and a hull plus 24 inch bubble of 8 S7 tesla shots should be fairly universally able to find something to shoot most of the time.
So the big concern is that flying in that little square looks ridiculous and isn't particularly good simulationism.
I love it. Makes it seem like Flyers are an enemy Boss in 40k Arcade Mode!
40k is now space invaders. Thematically it actually sort of works for necrons
So Frontline Gaming has a discussion around Necrons (well, all the indices, but Necrons came up) and they confirmed that yes, tesla will go off on a 5+ wwith My Will Be Done. That makes every shot basically worth 1.5 hits - 10 Immortals with Tesla expect to fire 20 shots and hit 30 times. That's absolutely crazy!
Anyway, here's my current thinking:
2000 point Battalion:
HQ Anrakyr the Traveller - 167
Illuminor Szeras - 143
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer - 230
9 Deathmarks - 180
Fast Attack
5 Tomb Blades, Gauss - 210
Heavy Support
2 Heavy Destroyers - 150
2 Heavy Destroyers - 150
2 Heavy Destroyers - 150
I'm not super happy with this list yet. However, it is quite interesting I think - the heavy destroyers sit back and pound the enemy; if they aren't focused down, they can pop back up again too. I wonder if it's better to run 2 units of 3 or 3 units of 2 like this but my fear was that people will kill them once they target them, so overkilling a small unit might help keep the big guns alive. Tomb Blades are very fast, extremely deadly units - these 5 alone look fairly benign, but put out 20 S5 AP-2 shots at close range, plus move 14" a turn and reanimate if they aren't focused down. Deathmarks sound really dumb to be honest, but I'm banking on them against AM; I've got to imagine Straken in a blob of conscripts is going to be fairly popular, as will Harlequins and SM. They output a respectable amount of wounds VS characters, are quite durable and can drop onto objectives if needed. I'm not in love with them in all honesty, but I feel like htey pug a big gap. The Nightbringer I'm just interested to use at all.
That gives me:
8 T7 4+ wounds
24 T5 3+ wounds
10 T5 4+ wounds
33 T4 3+ wounds
20 T4 4+ wounds
...which in all honesty isn't that much. However, there's quite a lot of good quality firepower - 20 rapid fire S5 AP-2 shots, 20 S5 tesla shots, 20 S4 AP-1 shots, 6 S9 AP-4, a one shot S10 AP-5 shot, a S8 AP-4 shot, D6AP-4 shots wounding on 2+ and 9 rapid fire sniper rifles. I don't really know how it'll fare - I suspect not that well, because it's not got any assault elements. We'll see.
Eyjio wrote: I'm not super happy with this list yet. However, it is quite interesting I think - the heavy destroyers sit back and pound the enemy; if they aren't focused down, they can pop back up again too. I wonder if it's better to run 2 units of 3 or 3 units of 2 like this but my fear was that people will kill them once they target them, so overkilling a small unit might help keep the big guns alive.
I would imagine 2 units of 3 would be quite a bit better since you can split shots and RP brings back full wounds. I really like res orb with a 3-5 man unit of destroyers quite a lot.
Eyjio wrote: So Frontline Gaming has a discussion around Necrons (well, all the indices, but Necrons came up) and they confirmed that yes, tesla will go off on a 5+ with My Will Be Done. That makes every shot basically worth 1.5 hits - 10 Immortals with Tesla expect to fire 20 shots and hit 30 times. That's absolutely crazy!
We were messing about with the new rules today at my FLGS and yeah I was averaging 18 or 21 hits just with the exploding Tesla shots, its not to be trifled with! Also Tesla works on Overwatch again That being said, I was missing the extra AP from Gauss. My army was just thrown together from random units though so the only Gauss I had was my 20 man Warrior squads, I think it'll balance out better when I throw in some Destroyers and/or Tomb Blades (man am I glad I didnt build those yet, I was going to put Particle Beamers on them D: )
OK, a little Mathammer. I was messing around with the idea of Vargard's Ghostwalk Mantle. As far as I can tell, there's nothing stopping the unit he teleports from charging - the limitations there are for units who deploy from reserve. It makes me wish that Necrons had better HtH, but I thought I'd see what could be done with what we have. I see two options - Lychguard and Flayed Ones. I decided to play around with the guard because the rest of the Necron list already does a pretty good job horde-stopping. So, what kind of buffs are available? There are three:
1. My Will Be Done... specifically for the +1TH - Lychguard hit on 2's at that point. Tasty.
MWBD goes off at the beginning of the turn, so it'll be in effect for the charge after Ghostwalking. Without any other buiffs a unit 10 Lychguard with Scythes, and Vargard will, on average, kill a T8 11W 3+ model (A Vindicator for example) on the charge. That's a 460 point unit, so it better be doing something.
Further buffs that matter:
2. +1S from Zeras (which you'll get 1/3 of the time). This would need to happen the turn before they teleport. Combined with MWBD that same unit will now, on average, Kill a T8 16W 2+ model (Landraider) on the charge. Not too shabby. Also, they get way better at slagging T7 stuff because they'd wound on 3's.
3. +1A from from Nemesor, can happen the same turn as teleport (also happens 1/3 of the time on his chart. Combines with MWBD the unit puts 16 wounds on the Landraider (without figuring Vargard in) and they'll drop 24 wounds on a T8 3+ model (again, not counting Vargard).
So, this makes me think that Nemesor and Vargard are a solid pairing, because they share a Dynasty and Nemesor gives you MWBD and maybe +1A. If there are ;points for Zeras too them cool, but given the synergy between Nemesor and Vargard that seems like the value play. Assuming you want to try and stack buffs. If you don't, then a normal Overlord will be cheaper and you'll still get MWBD.
With Nemesor, my plan would be to keep him within range of the Lychguard(w Vargard nearby) and a nice juicy unit of Tesla Immortals. If he rolls the +1BS then it goes on the Immortals, of he rolls +1A if goes on the Guard and they go hunting. Is this an expensive combo? Oh yes. It's about 900 pts for Nemesor, Vargard, a unit of 10 Lychguard, and a Unit of 15 tesla Immortals. But it's cool! And there are ways to make it less expensive. Anyway, That's what I spend my afternoon thinking about while I was at work.
Fenris-77 wrote: OK, a little Mathammer. I was messing around with the idea of Vargard's Ghostwalk Mantle. As far as I can tell, there's nothing stopping the unit he teleports from charging - the limitations there are for units who deploy from reserve. It makes me wish that Necrons had better HtH, but I thought I'd see what could be done with what we have. I see two options - Lychguard and Flayed Ones. I decided to play around with the guard because the rest of the Necron list already does a pretty good job horde-stopping. So, what kind of buffs are available? There are three:
1. My Will Be Done... specifically for the +1TH - Lychguard hit on 2's at that point. Tasty.
MWBD goes off at the beginning of the turn, so it'll be in effect for the charge after Ghostwalking. Without any other buiffs a unit 10 Lychguard with Scythes, and Vargard will, on average, kill a T8 11W 3+ model (A Vindicator for example) on the charge. That's a 460 point unit, so it better be doing something.
Further buffs that matter:
2. +1S from Zeras (which you'll get 1/3 of the time). This would need to happen the turn before they teleport. Combined with MWBD that same unit will now, on average, Kill a T8 16W 2+ model (Landraider) on the charge. Not too shabby. Also, they get way better at slagging T7 stuff because they'd wound on 3's.
3. +1A from from Nemesor, can happen the same turn as teleport (also happens 1/3 of the time on his chart. Combines with MWBD the unit puts 16 wounds on the Landraider (without figuring Vargard in) and they'll drop 24 wounds on a T8 3+ model (again, not counting Vargard).
So, this makes me think that Nemesor and Vargard are a solid pairing, because they share a Dynasty and Nemesor gives you MWBD and maybe +1A. If there are ;points for Zeras too them cool, but given the synergy between Nemesor and Vargard that seems like the value play. Assuming you want to try and stack buffs. If you don't, then a normal Overlord will be cheaper and you'll still get MWBD.
With Nemesor, my plan would be to keep him within range of the Lychguard(w Vargard nearby) and a nice juicy unit of Tesla Immortals. If he rolls the +1BS then it goes on the Immortals, of he rolls +1A if goes on the Guard and they go hunting. Is this an expensive combo? Oh yes. It's about 900 pts for Nemesor, Vargard, a unit of 10 Lychguard, and a Unit of 15 tesla Immortals. But it's cool! And there are ways to make it less expensive. Anyway, That's what I spend my afternoon thinking about while I was at work.
I thought you could only ghostwalk mantle to nemesor zandrekh?
Fenris-77 wrote: OK, a little Mathammer. I was messing around with the idea of Vargard's Ghostwalk Mantle. As far as I can tell, there's nothing stopping the unit he teleports from charging - the limitations there are for units who deploy from reserve. It makes me wish that Necrons had better HtH, but I thought I'd see what could be done with what we have. I see two options - Lychguard and Flayed Ones. I decided to play around with the guard because the rest of the Necron list already does a pretty good job horde-stopping. So, what kind of buffs are available? There are three:
1. My Will Be Done... specifically for the +1TH - Lychguard hit on 2's at that point. Tasty.
MWBD goes off at the beginning of the turn, so it'll be in effect for the charge after Ghostwalking. Without any other buiffs a unit 10 Lychguard with Scythes, and Vargard will, on average, kill a T8 11W 3+ model (A Vindicator for example) on the charge. That's a 460 point unit, so it better be doing something.
Further buffs that matter:
2. +1S from Zeras (which you'll get 1/3 of the time). This would need to happen the turn before they teleport. Combined with MWBD that same unit will now, on average, Kill a T8 16W 2+ model (Landraider) on the charge. Not too shabby. Also, they get way better at slagging T7 stuff because they'd wound on 3's.
3. +1A from from Nemesor, can happen the same turn as teleport (also happens 1/3 of the time on his chart. Combines with MWBD the unit puts 16 wounds on the Landraider (without figuring Vargard in) and they'll drop 24 wounds on a T8 3+ model (again, not counting Vargard).
So, this makes me think that Nemesor and Vargard are a solid pairing, because they share a Dynasty and Nemesor gives you MWBD and maybe +1A. If there are ;points for Zeras too them cool, but given the synergy between Nemesor and Vargard that seems like the value play. Assuming you want to try and stack buffs. If you don't, then a normal Overlord will be cheaper and you'll still get MWBD.
With Nemesor, my plan would be to keep him within range of the Lychguard(w Vargard nearby) and a nice juicy unit of Tesla Immortals. If he rolls the +1BS then it goes on the Immortals, of he rolls +1A if goes on the Guard and they go hunting. Is this an expensive combo? Oh yes. It's about 900 pts for Nemesor, Vargard, a unit of 10 Lychguard, and a Unit of 15 tesla Immortals. But it's cool! And there are ways to make it less expensive. Anyway, That's what I spend my afternoon thinking about while I was at work.
I thought you could only ghostwalk mantle to nemesor zandrekh?
Easy, just run him and deciever to get him out there.
Yeah, the need to run a 180 point model out as bait is the downside. I was thinking about the Deceiver too. There's maybe some juice there with a whole bunch of redeploying shenanigans.
This is as tricky as I could get with Necron HtH. Which is too say not that tricky. Running Nemesor in an Ark might help too. Move him up the 12, get out the following turn and then pull Shenanigans. Sadly, to stack buffs from Nemesor you;re talking about a teleport of maybe 12". I might call it a leapfrog more than a teleport. It's the Trailer Park Boys version of the Veil of Tears.
If you want the long range version you're talking about buffing from Seras and then getting stuck in. And still using Nemesor as bait.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or drop him out of a Night Scythe I guess. that's got a little more range potential, and maybe means more for the teleport and charge thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can I just say that the lack of counter punch in this Necron list is really taking the jam out of my doughnut. :(
I had hoped that MWBD might have some effect on the Vault and Obelisk, but alas. Just infantry. Our Super Heavies are a bit hit and miss - the massive strength of the Tesla Sphere and the fact that you get 20 shots is impressive, but the lack of any AP on the attack means that it is best used against hordes of light infantry.
On the other hand, the Vault will pretty reliably put 6 mortal wounds onto a single unit each turn until it starts to lose power uses to damage, and that isn't something to be sneered at. Napkin math says that the Vault will do about 10 wounds to a 3+ unit with 4 to 6 toughness on average, which is enough to wipe out minimum sized squads, but most of the successful wounds are going to be coming from anti-matter meteor.
The potential of sniping out an important character with Time's Arrow shouldn't be ignored, and having 3 chances to do so raises the chances quite a bit. And the Vault still has a chance of taking a big chunk out of your opponent's army, although the chances are greatly reduced from last edition.
Super viable? Probably not, but it feels like the Vault is at least worth taking now, and it has the potential to provide some unexpected spikes of damage. Probably best to pair it with a Stalker to add some reliability to the ranged attack, the more 6s you can throw the nastier the Vault becomes.
So second battle in the books, against a super annoying Tau list, I think he might have been cheating because the number of drones was insane. In anycase I won, but it was the blueballs of victory, right before I finished moving in to crush him after several annoying turns of marching my foot army across the board, time ran out and I won on points, having got first blood and killed 6 of his units.
The twenty man warrior blob stood up nicely to 3 turns of five marker light shooting, Hitting on 3's rerolling 1s, I think I can count the number of times he missed on one hand. Wraiths and scarabs didn't so much of anything, again, their offense seems less impressive at one wound a hit, and the lack of repair protocols makes them a liability. I know in theory they are both decent units from the mathhammer, but in practice they've been awful.
Spear head deployment was awful, my poor immortals never fired a shot because they were on a flank.
Having had two games against very different armies where the units performed similarly, I'm going to say nope to the canoptek units. scarabs and wraiths just aren't cutting the mustard. Destroyers are godly, 3 wounds a piece and packing enough heat to melt a tank, literally. Going to play with my list some and see what i can come up with.
Several issues with the Obyron + Zahndrekh + Lychguard (+ Szeras?) combo:
- Ghostwalk only works with Zahndrekh, now (really stupid design decision), so you need to get him out in front somehow. Only options are Monolith, Night Scythe, Ghost Ark or Deceiver. Of the four, I prefer the C'tan (why couldn't they just allow HQ to use the CCB as a transport again?)
- Szeras and Zahndrekh's buffs rely on random dice. Not very reliable (I can see that making thematic sense for Zahndrekh, but am kinda pissed they did it for Szeras).
- The order that buffs are given out if pretty awkward. If Ghostwalking, you've gotta have someone near them on one end of the table to grant MWBD at the beginning of the turn, then you've gotta have a Cryptek on the other side of the table already to give the a buff to RP when they arrive, but if you're moving them up to Zahndrekh then you can't give them his random buff in that same turn as that only happens at the beginning of the turn, so you can either charge without the buff, or wait to charge next turn with the buff.
- Actually, I don't know why Szeras even factors into this combo at all. He only grants buffs to Warriors and Immortals. Lychguard get nothing from him that they couldn't get from a regular Cryptek. Anrakyr, on the other hand, is PERFECT for them... problem being, he can't get transported up via anything but Deceiver.
I kinda like the way the Ghostwalk Mantle works now, working on the assumption we're getting the regular Veil of Darkness back. It better separates the two abilities rather than Obyron just being a second veil, and if you can get Zandrekh out there it's way better than other deep strike options since you can plop the unit so close to enemies. 9" charge is far from guaranteed but a 3" charge almost is.
A significant problem with the Necron list is that effective list building mitigates directly against accruing CPs. The Necrons mostly want to hit RP as hard as possible, and that means very expensive max troop units, which in turn means Necrons aren't dropping three or four Org Charts like AM can to collect CPs. Mostly the Necrons will be lucky to fill two, and mostly will be left with one, so maybe 6 Cps? Best case. I'd love to use those to reroll buff rolls to get combos off, but I din't really think Necroins have that luxury,
@skoffs - Jump in any time with a great idea,. We have a brand new 'Dex and a brand new game, there's going to be reading comp issues. Lotta balls in the air. The real question is are you going to part of the solution, or are you happy sniping from the peanut gallery? That sounds meaner than it was supposed to, I'm not trying to be confrontational on purpose. But hey, do drop any hot takes you might have...
2. +1S from Zeras (which you'll get 1/3 of the time). This would need to happen the turn before they teleport. Combined with MWBD that same unit will now, on average, Kill a T8 16W 2+ model (Landraider) on the charge. Not too shabby. Also, they get way better at slagging T7 stuff because they'd wound on 3's.
How are you buffing the Lychguard with Szeras? Szeras says it can only buff Warriors or Immortals.
Fenris-77 wrote: A significant problem with the Necron list is that effective list building mitigates directly against accruing CPs. The Necrons mostly want to hit RP as hard as possible, and that means very expensive max troop units, which in turn means Necrons aren't dropping three or four Org Charts like AM can to collect CPs. Mostly the Necrons will be lucky to fill two, and mostly will be left with one, so maybe 6 Cps? Best case. I'd love to use those to reroll buff rolls to get combos off, but I din't really think Necroins have that luxury,
@skoffs - Jump in any time with a great idea,. We have a brand new 'Dex and a brand new game, there's going to be reading comp issues. Lotta balls in the air. The real question is are you going to part of the solution, or are you happy sniping from the peanut gallery? That sounds meaner than it was supposed to, I'm not trying to be confrontational on purpose. But hey, do drop any hot takes you might have...
Less CPs kinda 'balances' out that Necrons are easily the best CP army in the game.
We have the ability to re-roll a Quantum Shielding save after seeing the damage roll - if you flub a 6 on your opponent's 6 or 5 damage for example, you can re-roll that for a high chance of negating a 5 or 6 damage hit...no other army has that sort of thing for their vehicles. On the flipside, opponents can't effectively use CP to maximise their D6 damage rolls against QS vehicles.
We can take 20 strong units of Warriors or Flayed Ones, and autopass the morale check if they lose 15 models in a turn - not just guaranteed saving 5 models with those 2 CP, but potentially all 20. No other army can get that sort of value off a CP spend.
Fenris-77 wrote: A significant problem with the Necron list is that effective list building mitigates directly against accruing CPs. The Necrons mostly want to hit RP as hard as possible, and that means very expensive max troop units, which in turn means Necrons aren't dropping three or four Org Charts like AM can to collect CPs. Mostly the Necrons will be lucky to fill two, and mostly will be left with one, so maybe 6 Cps? Best case. I'd love to use those to reroll buff rolls to get combos off, but I din't really think Necroins have that luxury,
@skoffs - Jump in any time with a great idea,. We have a brand new 'Dex and a brand new game, there's going to be reading comp issues. Lotta balls in the air. The real question is are you going to part of the solution, or are you happy sniping from the peanut gallery? That sounds meaner than it was supposed to, I'm not trying to be confrontational on purpose. But hey, do drop any hot takes you might have...
according to the frontline gaming minutes, you can only take max 3 detachments per army, so we wont be too far behind overall?
Fenris-77 wrote: @skoffs - Jump in any time with a great idea,. We have a brand new 'Dex and a brand new game, there's going to be reading comp issues. Lotta balls in the air. The real question is are you going to part of the solution, or are you happy sniping from the peanut gallery? That sounds meaner than it was supposed to, I'm not trying to be confrontational on purpose. But hey, do drop any hot takes you might have...
My part of the solution is pointing out things that might not work when we see them.
Better we say something now rather than someone in the middle of a game finding out they can't do something they thought they could.
(and if you'll notice, over the last several pages I and many others have been trying to figure out interesting combos, the most notable being old BS10 equivalent shooting and the Deceiver Bomb. We're trying to come up with more but it takes a while to analyze things)
Grimgold wrote: So after some crunching here is my list, I'm going to miss the cryptek, but if this saves me from another slog it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
2000 Necron Outrider Detachment
-=HQ=-
Destroyer Lord 124 (157)
+Staff of light 18
+Phylactery 15
-=Elite=-
10 x Triarch Praetorians 25 (350)
+ 10 x Rod of covenant 10
Triarch stalker 117 (181)
+Twin heavy gauss 64
-=Fast Attack=-
6 x Destroyers 43 (378)
+6 x Gauss Cannon 20 (120)
6 x Destroyers 43 (378)
+6 x Gauss Cannon 20 (120)
5 x Tomb Blades 24 (186)
+4 x Gauss Blaster 9 (36)
+2 x Nebuloscope 3 (6)
+3 x Particle Beamer 10 (30)
-=Heavy Support=-
3 x Heavy Destroyers 43 (225)
+ 3 x Heavy Gauss Cannon 32 (96)
I feel the res orb is better on the D/lord now than phlactery (when babysitting Destroyers), the orb will make its points back on the higher cost models quicker, and he is really just a big old buff for the destroyers these days.
The CCB, its really underwhelming. It's not a character, so it can get targeted immediately. The MWG batrep showed how durable QS can be, but i dont think this is enough to make a unit that is mainly around for CC and buffing survive long enough.
I feel our HQ's now should be left out of combat for the most part. The 12" command wave MWBD is good, but it doesn't affect the praetorians, who should be charging up the board too, leaving his buffing ability for noone really as you don't want anyone else in combat? And he doesn't put out that much dakka, and only a few CC attacks. I feel a cryptek babysitting the HD's would be better served?
Also, the stalker doesn't really synergise with the HD's as they arent really benefitting from it at all. Unless you wanted it just for its THGC? But for that price you can get 2 more HD's, which can move and shoot and have RP and being buffed.
Imagine a shooting nexus of HD's and Cryptek, with the D/lord and Destroyers out front shooting all midrange targets while the HD's take care of the big stuff. Thats a super reliable amount of dakka.
Realistically, the praets will be left out to dry by themselves charging up the board, with midrange the realm of the TB and destroyers, with the Stalker and HD's in the backline.
I would personally swap the CCB for a cryptek, swap the stalker for an anni barge, and then add in scarab bases as charge defense for the D/Cult?
The new matched play missions determine who goes first by who finishes setting up alternating units first, which is going to be the guy with the max size blobs and not the guy who is setting up 7 razorbacks separately from the MSU units they are attached to. There's a lot about this edition we still need to come to grips with before we can even say what our most basic strategy on the board should be. Do we relentlessly march at objectives to try and push enemy units off them or do we rush for the harder to obtain cover bonuses to maximize our RP viability as soon as possible and only make for objectives in the late game? Is a gloom prism a borderline mandatory inclusion as our only way to interact with the psychic phase? Should we be including a small highly mobile unit to always be able to try and grab a last minute 'linebreaker' victory point? About how many command points is too few or too many? Do games even go to 5+ turns on average or does the new, bloodier, high-speed pace of matches favor immediate all in alpha striking?
I want to like Praetorians, but they just seem to be the most dud option available in the codex.
The only sort of buff option available to them is Szeras +1 to RP, and Anrakyr +1 Attack. Both of which are footslogging at best, and it destroys the point of Praets mobility to put them in a phalanx of guys- you might as well have 20 Immortals for the price of 10 with either of those HQs, they'll get waaay more out of both of them.
So I wouldn't mind them much then as a unit designed to operate alone; but then they have no innate deepstrike ability, despite having Jump Packs! WHY can they not reserve in first turn for a 9" deploy away, being able to shoot/charge? They'd be in danger of being good?
A unit that by design can't really benefit from buffs? Sounds like perfect synergy for our transport options (Nightscythe/Monolith) that can't transport a character alongside a unit. But wait, neither can transport Praetorians...
So they have to deploy normally and footslog. Well they have a 10" move which isn't exactly flash, but they can advance first turn and fire their 12" single shot weapons at -1 to hit due to assault...5 hits from a full 350 point unit...not great.
I'd rather invest in something like Tomb Blades who can scoot up 14" and unload 2 Gauss Blasters each. Sure they can't assault, but they can't be caught in assault to deny shooting either, they also <FLY>.
And even if we had the options to pull off a quick shoot+assault with them, a full unit of 10 for 350 points is putting out 'only' 10 shots and 20 melee 1 damage attacks a turn at S5 AP-3....that's just not that much for 1 damage attacks at their pricepoint. A full unit of Immortals at less than half gets 30 dice as well, so 20 Immortals is the same amount of wounds (but individually), double the dice a turn, and 40 S5 AP-2 shots over 10 S5 AP-3 within 12", with the option to actually shoot over that range. They hit this 'alright' spot of durability, melee, shooting but just mediocre in all compared to our other choices. Immortals or Bikes or Lychguard just blow them out in shooting, speed and melee and they can't be buffed.
I'd consider them at 40 ppm if their shooting weapon was Assault 2 or 3, and/or they hit on 2+/2+ to make up for the fact they can't be buffed, maybe even if they gave out a melee aura of rerolls to 1 on their targets like an version of a Stalker, so you could run a minimum unit and benefit, but their current iteration sucks.
Ghost arc with Zahndrek and Orikan. A Lychguard with Scythes + Praetorians stand ready. And the deciever of course + Obyron
The deciever teleports the ghost arcs with all characters to the front lines. And I hope he can get the praetorians too (I will reroll if nescessary).
Then the characters go out and Obyron ports the lychguard to Zahndrek. In the first turn the Praetorians will shoot at something, the Lychguard and Obyron will charge. In the end I will have 3 character + C'tan + 2melee units in the face of my opponent :-).
2nd plan is much more simple:
Many warriors / Gauss Immortals, many heavy destroyers, 1-2 ghost arcs and buff HQs (Zahndrek, Desi Lord, Orikan...), Tomb Blades
And the plan is just mass RP. Most of the list should be shooting and perhaps 1 countercharge unit + the characters.
My plan is rather simple.
I'd go for Warriors, Immortals, Night Scythes, Annihilation Barges, and Wraiths backed up by some specialized units/models.
Not sure about the HQ. I dont want lumbering army leader and I never play HQ characters. This narrows down the choices to CCB and/or Destroyer Lord.
Just a quick realisation after a 1500 point match against Eldar:
1. We are much less resilent than before if an opponent wants to wipe aus. But we are more resilent over the game. Interesting, but something we have to use.
2. Damn is high movement + fly a problem for our slow units.
If an opponent can move 16" it is very likely that we will not get into melee with him again with our lych guard.
This means for me that Lych guard is "dead" again, just like in the 7th edition because of the speed.
Praetorians, Wraiths and all shooting stuff will be fine. But the whole idea with "port a strong unit in with the deciver" is gone for me:
1. Against tyranids, Orks, Daemons and perhaps some other things you do not want to get so close. If your opponent has the first turn he can wipe out the deciever, Zahndrek + one support unit.
If you go first you can most likely one charge some "sacirife" of your opponent, then he gets the countercharge and will really hurt.
2. Against fast shooty armies (Tau, Eldar but funny enough also Necrons with Destroyers) you won't be able to "catch up" with just lych guards.
You can no longer run 3 Tomb Blades into your opponent to "stop" him.
If you ask me: This will be become an edition with many resilent "fly" shooting units, devastating melee fighters (Genestealers, Daemonettes...) and large blobs of Infantry.
We can compete using Ghost and Doomsday Arcs (see fast flying fortresses) or immortal / warriors blobs. We have a great choice of characters and have the units for a "Countercharge" (all C'tans are great here. Their powers are more reliable than Psi, they are characters and can't be shot and they can countercharge).
So my way to go will be the "slow and steady" one with many destroyers in the back and at least 60 Necron warrior / Immortal Bodies on the table. Praetorians, Wraiths, C'Tan or stuff like that for the countercharge.
There was some mention in the FLG livestream thread that default gear might be included in the price, and gear prices are listed for when the unit has options, which would be awesome for destroyers, and others but I think that would be wishful thinking at best
Are we 100% certain that the CCB is *not* a character? I'm looking over the leaked pictures and the CCB is listed with units having a skull icon in the upper left of their listing, which are all HQ. I think. The CCB has the <Overlord> keyword, and looking at the Overlord it has the <Character> keyword.
A trail of breadcrumbs to get to the final descriptor? Wishful thinking on my part? Am I wanting something so badly to go with the hard charging Praetorians that I'm missing the obvious?
Melionodr wrote:This is just nonsense. Look at immortals or destroyers. Or just at the text "does not include wargear".
So the person on the FLG livesteam just has no idea
It's all about adjustability. If a weapon turns out to be too good, they can adjust the price of the weapons separately than the units that can use it. If they want to boost a unit, they can boost it in multiple ways without automatically making other units overpowered.
Is it a pain for list-writing? Yes, but it'll get better.
Nightfish wrote:Are we 100% certain that the CCB is *not* a character? I'm looking over the leaked pictures and the CCB is listed with units having a skull icon in the upper left of their listing, which are all HQ. I think. The CCB has the <Overlord> keyword, and looking at the Overlord it has the <Character> keyword.
A trail of breadcrumbs to get to the final descriptor? Wishful thinking on my part? Am I wanting something so badly to go with the hard charging Praetorians that I'm missing the obvious?
Wishful thinking. Pretty sure that one of the points of going to 8th was to stop the 'this gives you this because this other thing does". The keywords it has are the keywords it has.
Skull means HQ, yes.
You can be an HQ without being a character... yes.
CCB does not get the character protection... because it is a huge chariot.
Melionodr wrote: The deciever teleports the ghost arcs with all characters to the front lines.
[...]
Then the characters go out and Obyron ports the lychguard to Zahndrek.
!!!
Ghost Ark instead of Monolith!
Then you can have a bunch of HQ get out instead of just Zahndrekh.
That's perfect!
(that works, right? Everybody can start already embarked, correct?)
torblind wrote: There was some mention in the FLG livestream thread that default gear might be included in the price, and gear prices are listed for when the unit has options, which would be awesome for destroyers, and others but I think that would be wishful thinking at best
Probably wishful thinking, but wouldn't hurt to try asking on the FB page and hoping for the best?
You put Orikan, Zahndrek and whatever character you want (Desilord or whatever) in an arc. Then you port them with the deciever before the game. Then in your first turn zahndrek goes out 3", walks 5" and then Obyron ports to him directly in the enemies together with a Lychguard.
Then the Lychguards destroys as much as possible.
BUT it does not work against most opponents. Why?
If you do not have first turn, then Tyranids, Tau, Eldar and whoever have enough firepower to just kill the arc and the characters.
Even if you have the first turn: Do you really port to Tyranids, Orks or daemons?
And Tau and Eldar have fast flying fortresses, they will just run away while shooting at you. 5" movement is not enough here (even 10" is not much). And then the points
23x for deciever, 170 for the arc, several hundreds for the characters, then the lychguard. This are 60% of your army for this move and most armies can deal with it...
Anpu-adom wrote: Default gear (ie, things that are unique to that unit) are priced at 0 points.
Multiple characters would be able to fit the same Ghost Ark.
Okay we should really bring up to GW that a character should be able to leave a night scythe at the same time as a normal unit, because the absurdity of taking a ghost ark to port your characters over to join your transported units is pretty extreme.
Melionodr wrote: The deciever teleports the ghost arcs with all characters to the front lines. [...] Then the characters go out and Obyron ports the lychguard to Zahndrek.
!!! Ghost Ark instead of Monolith! Then you can have a bunch of HQ get out instead of just Zahndrekh. That's perfect! (that works, right? Everybody can start already embarked, correct?)
torblind wrote: There was some mention in the FLG livestream thread that default gear might be included in the price, and gear prices are listed for when the unit has options, which would be awesome for destroyers, and others but I think that would be wishful thinking at best
Probably wishful thinking, but wouldn't hurt to try asking on the FB page and hoping for the best?
Points aside, you can buy a Dedicated transport for each slot choice in the Detachment.
And you pick what goes into which Ghost Ark when you set up your army during Deployment. For missions with alternating set ups: Set up Ghost ark, Opponent sets up a unit, Then you Set up what is inside That Ghost ark. At least that is how I think it goes now.
As for the Default gear, when you have the book (or the leaked images) you will see it says "Including Wargear" or "Does not include wargear".
Example: Necrons have a few vehicle that only have a certain exact set of guns on them, but you still have to pay the cost for those guns over the base cost of the vehicle, but sometimes those guns are 0 points.
This lets them adjust the point costs in the future. If a certain Unit with a certain Gun is over powered, while that Gun on another unit is just fine, they can adjust the overpowered Unit cost with out hurting the other Unit with an increased Gun cost.
Just a quick realisation after a 1500 point match against Eldar:
1. We are much less resilent than before if an opponent wants to wipe aus. But we are more resilent over the game. Interesting, but something we have to use.
2. Damn is high movement + fly a problem for our slow units.
If an opponent can move 16" it is very likely that we will not get into melee with him again with our lych guard.
This means for me that Lych guard is "dead" again, just like in the 7th edition because of the speed.
Praetorians, Wraiths and all shooting stuff will be fine. But the whole idea with "port a strong unit in with the deciver" is gone for me:
1. Against tyranids, Orks, Daemons and perhaps some other things you do not want to get so close. If your opponent has the first turn he can wipe out the deciever, Zahndrek + one support unit.
If you go first you can most likely one charge some "sacirife" of your opponent, then he gets the countercharge and will really hurt.
2. Against fast shooty armies (Tau, Eldar but funny enough also Necrons with Destroyers) you won't be able to "catch up" with just lych guards.
You can no longer run 3 Tomb Blades into your opponent to "stop" him.
If you ask me: This will be become an edition with many resilent "fly" shooting units, devastating melee fighters (Genestealers, Daemonettes...) and large blobs of Infantry.
We can compete using Ghost and Doomsday Arcs (see fast flying fortresses) or immortal / warriors blobs. We have a great choice of characters and have the units for a "Countercharge" (all C'tans are great here. Their powers are more reliable than Psi, they are characters and can't be shot and they can countercharge).
So my way to go will be the "slow and steady" one with many destroyers in the back and at least 60 Necron warrior / Immortal Bodies on the table. Praetorians, Wraiths, C'Tan or stuff like that for the countercharge.
This was one of my concerns as I was thinking about how to use Anrakyr. He looks awesome if he can get close but he doesn't have a transport and if you C'Tan him in he can't charge that turn. So that either means that you need to walk him up the table and risk getting kited or somehow entice your opponent to walk into him. Both of those options sound really bad, which is too bad because he has some really cool things that he will never get to do.
Just a quick realisation after a 1500 point match against Eldar:
1. We are much less resilent than before if an opponent wants to wipe aus. But we are more resilent over the game. Interesting, but something we have to use.
2. Damn is high movement + fly a problem for our slow units.
If an opponent can move 16" it is very likely that we will not get into melee with him again with our lych guard.
This means for me that Lych guard is "dead" again, just like in the 7th edition because of the speed.
Praetorians, Wraiths and all shooting stuff will be fine. But the whole idea with "port a strong unit in with the deciver" is gone for me:
1. Against tyranids, Orks, Daemons and perhaps some other things you do not want to get so close. If your opponent has the first turn he can wipe out the deciever, Zahndrek + one support unit.
If you go first you can most likely one charge some "sacirife" of your opponent, then he gets the countercharge and will really hurt.
2. Against fast shooty armies (Tau, Eldar but funny enough also Necrons with Destroyers) you won't be able to "catch up" with just lych guards.
You can no longer run 3 Tomb Blades into your opponent to "stop" him.
If you ask me: This will be become an edition with many resilent "fly" shooting units, devastating melee fighters (Genestealers, Daemonettes...) and large blobs of Infantry.
We can compete using Ghost and Doomsday Arcs (see fast flying fortresses) or immortal / warriors blobs. We have a great choice of characters and have the units for a "Countercharge" (all C'tans are great here. Their powers are more reliable than Psi, they are characters and can't be shot and they can countercharge).
So my way to go will be the "slow and steady" one with many destroyers in the back and at least 60 Necron warrior / Immortal Bodies on the table. Praetorians, Wraiths, C'Tan or stuff like that for the countercharge.
This was one of my concerns as I was thinking about how to use Anrakyr. He looks awesome if he can get close but he doesn't have a transport and if you C'Tan him in he can't charge that turn. So that either means that you need to walk him up the table and risk getting kited or somehow entice your opponent to walk into him. Both of those options sound really bad, which is too bad because he has some really cool things that he will never get to do.
*quickly checks*
"A Ghost Ark can transport 10 <Dynasty> Infantry models" Oh FFS, so Anrakyr and Szeras can't even get into Ghost Arks?!
This is some utter bull, man. What looks like one of our best HQ is practically useless if you can't get him close enough to do anything.
wuestenfux wrote: Not sure about the HQ. I dont want lumbering army leader and I never play HQ characters. This narrows down the choices to CCB and/or Destroyer Lord.
Yeah, that's one of the things pushing me to take a D. Lord over an Overlord. I don't like the idea of being stuck with a slow HQ.
I wouldn't want the CCB either, as it can't hide behind units and doesn't seem resilient enough to survive on its own.
I don't think there's anything necessarily bad with Anrakyr just blobbing it with some Warriors, Orikan, Nightbringer, Ghost Arks up the table. It's tough to get rid of, puts out a lot of Gauss and a lot of attacks with 3 of our most powerful combat characters.
Just gotta sort out what sort of big guns needed in support.
skoffs wrote: *quickly checks*
"A Ghost Ark can transport 10 <Dynasty> Infantry models" Oh FFS, so Anrakyr and Szeras can't even get into Ghost Arks?!
This is some utter bull, man. What looks like one of our best HQ is practically useless if you can't get him close enough to do anything.
I think we need to start compiling a list of anomalies to present to GW either on Facebook or their FAQ interactive website thing they have planned once the game officially comes out, because this is getting ridiculous.
The transport issue is probably my only real gripe with this iteration of the Crons. I can deal with the point increases and relatively minor nerfs, but they've pretty well ripped the heart out of any coordination of our forces other than slogging everyone up the board. I'll play through it, but it kills a lot of the enjoyment of this army for me.
Alright, bots, Writing up stuff to begin a new 8th tactics thread. Want a header so new players can find exactly what they need to as soon as they can. Need some help fleshing it out-
8th Edition Necron Tactica - Good vs bad discussion pg.1
Good: - Immortals (excellent guns) - Tomb Blades (two Immortals strapped together, with extra toughness and speed) - Deceiver C'tan (deployment shenanigans) -
Okay: - Warriors (lots of bodies means lots of RP chances) - Flayed Ones (a little expensive, but a lot of attacks) -
Bad: - Command Barge (not much damage, easily killed) - Anrakyr (amazing guy, unfortunately just can't get into battle) -
Interesting Combos: - A shooting unit that has BS3+ and has been buffed with MWBD is hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s, if it shoots at something a Stalker has shot at... that's some accurate shooting! (basially the equivalent of what used to be BS10) You can also buff vehicle shooting with a Stalker, but they can't benefit from MWBD. (alternatively, you can have an Overlord + Destroyer Lord + Destroyers/Heavies. Same effect as the top Stalker combo, but they're also rerolling to-wound rolls of 1). - Deceiver + Ghost Ark (full of Zahndrekh and some other HQs) can use Grand Illusion to reposition themselves 12" away from an enemy before turn 1. At the beginning of your movement phase, all the HQ get out and move up 5" (so they're 7" away from the enemy... 5 or 6" if you pivot the Ark before they disembark). Then at the end of your movement phase, Obyron + a unit of Lychguard Ghostwalk up, 6" from Zahndrekh (so like 1" or so away from the enemy). Shooting phase, the C'tan, Ghost Ark and anyone with a Staff of Light fires. Charge phase sees a ton of Warscythes carve up anything still standing. - One or two 20 man units of Warriors + a Ghost Ark + a Cryptek. Very hard to kill little "formation" -
Things to note: - Only certain things can use our vehicles now. If they do not have a <Dynasty> keyword (eg. Anrakyr, Szeras, Praetorians), they cannot interact with Monoliths, Night Scythes, or Ghost Arks. - The Command Barge lacks the Character keyword so can be targeted by enemies without benefiting from the "must target closest unit" protection rule. -
With regard to the issue of not being able to get into combat, I have two thoughts:
- Does this make the Stormlord a more attractive choice, given that (among other things) he actually has a good ranged weapon with a decent range?
- Do you think stuff like Anrakyr might still be useful as counter-charge units or to fortify our infantry against our opponent's charging us? Whilst no help against Tau, it seems like there's a lot of other stuff that will still want to assault us. Is it worth including Anrakyr as a defence or deterrent against such?
I think the destroyer lord is the best counter charge option. Good movement, tough as nails, and quite killy means he can hang back and act as counter charge or pair with another fast unit like wraiths, praets, or tomb blades.
I think flayed ones are overpriced. 21 poins for t4, 4+ save and 1W is really bad.
The output is great, but 5" movement melee glass cannons? Not what I will use.
Immortals with Gauss are also okay. +1 Str, armor and AP over warriors for 5 points seems fine.
Imothek seems overpriced.
Normal OL is ok, Lord seems not so useful (even his moral boost is nice)
Cryptek seems ok
Desilord seems ok (our only useful fast HQ with nice melee abilities)
Zahndrekh is good. Just a better Overlord with his madness.
Obyron can be used if you want the teleport
Szeras is too random for me
Orikan is godlike
Arakyr would be good, if I had a plan to bring him into melee ;-).
Trazyn seems mostly useless
Catacomb Command Bark is missing the "character" word...now it is an overpriced shooting practice target
Lychgaurd are devastating if you can deliver them...but only 5" movement.
Deathmarks and Flayed ones are overpriced
Prätorians seem great IMHO. The speed, the firepower, the melee power...all fine
The Stalker seems overpriced. I am thinking about taking one (exactly one) as support piece. But even then a doomsday ark or 2 heavy Destroyers might be better
Both C'tan characters are fine. Deciever for teleport and the nightbringer is the perfect piece to walk in your blob with Orikan and 40 warriors. Let the opponent charge the warriors and see what happens if Super-Sayan Orikan and a C'tan countercharge ;-).
Ghost Ark is useful for the teleport of the deciever or to support 20-40 warriors. I would not use it to transport 10 warriors....
Both Scythe are ocerpriced IMHO. And they have no quanutm shield....
Wraiths are fine. 38 points for 3 wounds and a 3+ invul save is fine. The hitting power is a bit lacking.
Scarabs are so cheap. For this points the 3 wounds and the damage are awesome.
Tomb Blades are difficult IMHO. You do not want to run min. tropps now with our new RP. But 9 tomblades?
ANd do you want them with Gauss or Tesla? And then the upgrades...
Destroyers, especially heavy destroyers are Important IMHO. You need something to stop a Knight, demon prince and so on. I am actually thinking about running 9 heavy destroyers or 6 heavy destroyers and 5 normal ones with 1 heavy included..
Spiders are useless
Monolith, Vault, Obelisk are missing quantum shielding, are expensive and are just worse than knights or similar counterpats. I will not play them.
Annihilation Barge is missing range and can not use the full BF while moving.
The doomsday ark offers a long range and seems fine. I am not sure if I prefer 3 heavy destroyers or 1 Ark...
The "Transcendent" C'tan seems similar to the nightbringer, but I think I prefer the nightbringer for his shooting ability.
Thinking of Anrakyr, yeah he can't transport but my will be done and his own benefit work pretty well with tesla immortals in keeping with his old phyrrian eternals concept.
Honestly though the more I look at it characters not joining units devalues the very -idea- of characters fairly heavily. Transporting issues here, plus the fact that they can't charge or advance with their unit and make positioning them constantly awkward...
With regard to Spyders, I hadn't looked at them properly before. Wow.
So, our Necron HQs went from 3 wounds to 6 wounds.
Our Spyders went from 3 wounds to 4 wounds. Not only that, but the risk for trying to reinforce scarabs is now to half-kill a spyder. Oh, and they aren't even allowed the Living Metal rule. Outstanding.
I think flayed ones are overpriced. 21 poins for t4, 4+ save and 1W is really bad.
The output is great, but 5" movement melee glass cannons? Not what I will use.
Immortals with Gauss are also okay. +1 Str, armor and AP over warriors for 5 points seems fine.
Imothek seems overpriced.
Normal OL is ok, Lord seems not so useful (even his moral boost is nice)
Cryptek seems ok
Desilord seems ok (our only useful fast HQ with nice melee abilities)
Zahndrekh is good. Just a better Overlord with his madness.
Obyron can be used if you want the teleport
Szeras is too random for me
Orikan is godlike
Arakyr would be good, if I had a plan to bring him into melee ;-).
Trazyn seems mostly useless
Catacomb Command Bark is missing the "character" word...now it is an overpriced shooting practice target
Lychgaurd are devastating if you can deliver them...but only 5" movement.
Deathmarks and Flayed ones are overpriced
Prätorians seem great IMHO. The speed, the firepower, the melee power...all fine
The Stalker seems overpriced. I am thinking about taking one (exactly one) as support piece. But even then a doomsday ark or 2 heavy Destroyers might be better
Both C'tan characters are fine. Deciever for teleport and the nightbringer is the perfect piece to walk in your blob with Orikan and 40 warriors. Let the opponent charge the warriors and see what happens if Super-Sayan Orikan and a C'tan countercharge ;-).
Ghost Ark is useful for the teleport of the deciever or to support 20-40 warriors. I would not use it to transport 10 warriors....
Both Scythe are ocerpriced IMHO. And they have no quanutm shield....
Wraiths are fine. 38 points for 3 wounds and a 3+ invul save is fine. The hitting power is a bit lacking.
Scarabs are so cheap. For this points the 3 wounds and the damage are awesome.
Tomb Blades are difficult IMHO. You do not want to run min. tropps now with our new RP. But 9 tomblades?
ANd do you want them with Gauss or Tesla? And then the upgrades...
Destroyers, especially heavy destroyers are Important IMHO. You need something to stop a Knight, demon prince and so on. I am actually thinking about running 9 heavy destroyers or 6 heavy destroyers and 5 normal ones with 1 heavy included..
Spiders are useless
Monolith, Vault, Obelisk are missing quantum shielding, are expensive and are just worse than knights or similar counterpats. I will not play them.
Annihilation Barge is missing range and can not use the full BF while moving.
The doomsday ark offers a long range and seems fine. I am not sure if I prefer 3 heavy destroyers or 1 Ark...
The "Transcendent" C'tan seems similar to the nightbringer, but I think I prefer the nightbringer for his shooting ability.
Different opinions on our units?
That's some good stuff!
...
Any way I could get you to group them together by good / okay / bad? (so they're easier to copy/paste into the header post)
vipoid wrote: With regard to Spyders, I hadn't looked at them properly before. Wow.
So, our Necron HQs went from 3 wounds to 6 wounds.
Our Spyders went from 3 wounds to 4 wounds. Not only that, but the risk for trying to reinforce scarabs is now to half-kill a spyder. Oh, and they aren't even allowed the Living Metal rule. Outstanding.
Yeah, but they're a T6 Techmarine with an okay gun. Just forget their overnerfed scarab generation and focus on that.
changemod wrote: Yeah, but they're a T6 Techmarine with an okay gun. Just forget their overnerfed scarab generation and focus on that.
Eh, that gun seems pretty awful to me. Especially when the model in question only hits 50% of the time.
I'd rather get a Destroyer or Heavy Destroyer and have better BS (plus rerolling 1s), about twice the movement and a much better gun.
Which is why you don't want them in combat, you want them behind a vehicle so nothing can shoot it and it can repair and deny psy in peace. Spyders are mainly support units. You don't want your support in danger.
Hey guys/gals I have a question regarding transports. Am I only allowed to take a GA if I have a unit of 10 warriors with it or can I take one for my unit 20 but not be allowed to embark?
The spyder is truly awful, it should be like 6 wounds and have a 2+ save for that price. Its basically the same cost as a low end carnifex, I think its the single weakest unit with the 'monster' tag in the game, being easily torn apart by a single lascannon/melta shot or 2 plasma gun shots, and the model is too big to hide behind anything smaller than a monolith.
The fact that the gloom prism seems to have infinite range on its 'deny the witch' test is possibly crucial though? Imagine an ork army that expects to deliver a 30 man mob of boyz with Da Jump at the same time as its transports deliver the rest of the army and being able to reach out and shut that down? or a farseer trying to guide a full unit of warwalkers? All that and a fabricator claw makes it like an incredible little tech priest / anti-psyker utility unit except it can't hide or survive to make use of those things.
EDIT:
78zrider wrote: Hey guys/gals I have a question regarding transports. Am I only allowed to take a GA if I have a unit of 10 warriors with it or can I take one for my unit 20 but not be allowed to embark?
you can take a ghost ark for every other unit you take regardless of if they can ride in it or not, as long as your detachment allows you to take dedicated transports and almost all of them do.
Hey, did someone say Night/Doom Scythes can fire at anything regardless of facing? pg. 268 has info about facings that would indicate the guns only have a 90 degree arc (for flyers only. regular vehicles don't appear to have that restriction)
Says they can leave combat air space and come back on in later turns, too. Guess we don't need to worry about flying in squares in the middle of the table after all?
Also, as we're near the top of a new page, guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to post that stuff about the new thread again for more visibility-
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Alright, bots, Writing up stuff to begin a new 8th tactics thread. Want a header so new players can find exactly what they need to as soon as they can. Need some help fleshing it out-
8th Edition Necron Tactica - Good vs bad discussion pg.1
Good: - Immortals (excellent guns) - Tomb Blades (two Immortals strapped together, with extra toughness and speed) - Deceiver C'tan (deployment shenanigans) -
Okay: - Warriors (lots of bodies means lots of RP chances) - Flayed Ones (a little expensive, but a lot of attacks) -
Bad: - Command Barge (not much damage, easily killed) - Anrakyr (amazing guy, unfortunately just can't get into battle) -
Interesting Combos: - A shooting unit that has BS3+ and has been buffed with MWBD is hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s, if it shoots at something a Stalker has shot at... that's some accurate shooting! (basially the equivalent of what used to be BS10) You can also buff vehicle shooting with a Stalker, but they can't benefit from MWBD. (alternatively, you can have an Overlord + Destroyer Lord + Destroyers/Heavies. Same effect as the top Stalker combo, but they're also rerolling to-wound rolls of 1). - Deceiver + Ghost Ark (full of Zahndrekh and some other HQs) can use Grand Illusion to reposition themselves 12" away from an enemy before turn 1. At the beginning of your movement phase, all the HQ get out and move up 5" (so they're 7" away from the enemy... 5 or 6" if you pivot the Ark before they disembark). Then at the end of your movement phase, Obyron + a unit of Lychguard Ghostwalk up, 6" from Zahndrekh (so like 1" or so away from the enemy). Shooting phase, the C'tan, Ghost Ark and anyone with a Staff of Light fires. Charge phase sees a ton of Warscythes carve up anything still standing. - One or two 20 man units of Warriors + a Ghost Ark + a Cryptek. Very hard to kill little "formation" -
Things to note: - Only certain things can use our vehicles now. If they do not have a <Dynasty> keyword (eg. Anrakyr, Szeras, Praetorians), they cannot interact with Monoliths, Night Scythes, or Ghost Arks. - The Command Barge lacks the Character keyword so can be targeted by enemies without benefiting from the "must target closest unit" protection rule. -
Things That Need Confirmation: - Does MWBD allow Tesla to proc on a 5+? - Do Gloom Prisms have a range, or can they be used from anywhere on the table to deny? -
Actinium wrote: The spyder is truly awful, it should be like 6 wounds and have a 2+ save for that price. Its basically the same cost as a low end carnifex, I think its the single weakest unit with the 'monster' tag in the game, being easily torn apart by a single lascannon/melta shot or 2 plasma gun shots, and the model is too big to hide behind anything smaller than a monolith.
The fact that the gloom prism seems to have infinite range on its 'deny the witch' test is possibly crucial though? Imagine an ork army that expects to deliver a 30 man mob of boyz with Da Jump at the same time as its transports deliver the rest of the army and being able to reach out and shut that down? or a farseer trying to guide a full unit of warwalkers?
All that and a fabricator claw makes it like an incredible little tech priest / anti-psyker utility unit except it can't hide or survive to make use of those things.
EDIT:
78zrider wrote: Hey guys/gals I have a question regarding transports. Am I only allowed to take a GA if I have a unit of 10 warriors with it or can I take one for my unit 20 but not be allowed to embark?
you can take a ghost ark for every other unit you take regardless of if they can ride in it or not, as long as your detachment allows you to take dedicated transports and almost all of them do.
Awesome thank you that saves me a lot of points lol
skoffs wrote: Hey, did someone say Night/Doom Scythes can fire at anything regardless of facing?
pg. 268 has info about facings that would indicate the guns only have a 90 degree arc (for flyers only. regular vehicles don't appear to have that restriction)
Says they can leave combat air space and come back on in later turns, too. Guess we don't need to worry about flying in squares in the middle of the table after all?
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[/quote
This is only important in the dofgiht phase. Nowhere it does say, that it also limits the shooting against ground targets in the shooting phase
skoffs wrote: Hey, did someone say Night/Doom Scythes can fire at anything regardless of facing?
pg. 268 has info about facings that would indicate the guns only have a 90 degree arc (for flyers only. regular vehicles don't appear to have that restriction)
Says they can leave combat air space and come back on in later turns, too. Guess we don't need to worry about flying in squares in the middle of the table after all?
-
[/quote
This is only important in the dofgiht phase. Nowhere it does say, that it also limits the shooting against ground targets in the shooting phase
What dogfight phase? I don't remember reading anything about a dogfight phase in 8th ed.
skoffs wrote: Hey, did someone say Night/Doom Scythes can fire at anything regardless of facing?
pg. 268 has info about facings that would indicate the guns only have a 90 degree arc (for flyers only. regular vehicles don't appear to have that restriction)
Says they can leave combat air space and come back on in later turns, too. Guess we don't need to worry about flying in squares in the middle of the table after all?
-
This is only important in the dofgiht phase. Nowhere it does say, that it also limits the shooting against ground targets in the shooting phase
Spoiler:
"All flyers - that is, units specifically with the Flyer battlefield role - can make use of the expanded Flyer rules below. For many of these rules, the flyers arcs will be important. Flyers have four arcs: one front, one rear, and two side arcs."
Sounds like it might apply to units outside of just Death From The Skies missions.
Melionodr wrote: The spider can only deny in 18" like any other Psyker
It would be 24" if it were the case. The rulebook deny the witch section says a psyker within 24" of the one manifesting the power gets to attempt a denial but the gloom prism description just says it gets to attempt a denial once every enemy psychic phase. I don't doubt a faq could clarify it has a range but it would be a nice feature for the spyder to hang its hat on if it isn't, cuz it sure doesn't seem to do anything else well.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, it doesn't specific a range, so I'm assuming its unlimited. could need some clarification, but if its unlimited that would be pretty strong.
Well, yet another thing we need to ask about on the FB page.
(I guess that would be another thing worth noting on the new thread OP: Things that need clarification.)
Got a friend that has been playing wh40k for a long time while I just joined for this 8th release. Starting to collect my necrons he brought up a few points of strategy that seem to echo some of the posts I read.
Take as an example this list he made (bear in mind he plays orks so it might be a bit weird)
his idea is that necrons are going to be an army that is either very mobile or just will blast you off the table my marching slowly in formation, this list would be something of the 2nd type.
His idea is to have a setup that has 2 warriors on the side, immortals on the mid, crypteks between the 3 units, and arks covering behind the 2 war units.
Everything else is for sniping enemy characters (deathmarks) and to tar pit the opponent (scarabs) and to take objectives (wraiths).
What do you guys think? I'm still a bit unsure on how necrons are going to play, last few weeks while I was building my troops I kept watching how it was in 7th and it seems a bit a weird concept for me.
Wow I missed that they changed tesla carbines to assault 2, that changes some things, Now tesla equipped tomb blades do more damage to MEQ than gauss blaster equipped ones outside of 12", and a lot more damage. The worse the armor save the better tesla performs, it only takes a 4+ for tesla carbines to be stronger inside 12" than gauss.
Grimgold wrote: Wow I missed that they changed tesla carbines to assault 2, that changes some things, Now tesla equipped tomb blades do more damage to MEQ than gauss blaster equipped ones outside of 12", and a lot more damage. The worse the armor save the better tesla performs, it only takes a 4+ for tesla carbines to be stronger inside 12" than gauss.
very much so, if you assume 1.5 shots (eg: a mix of inside 12 and outside 12) they are in a dead heat for MEQ, for anything with worse armor tesla is better.
Yeah, they buffed carbines. You now actually have a reason to take them. I would field both blasters and carbines on the table.
Though not in the same squad, obviously.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, they buffed carbines. You now actually have a reason to take them. I would field both blasters and carbines on the table.
Though not in the same squad, obviously.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, they buffed carbines. You now actually have a reason to take them. I would field both blasters and carbines on the table.
Though not in the same squad, obviously.
10 tesla immortals with MWBD
Hit on 2+
Proc on 5+
If I'm reading it correctly
That would be great, but it hasn't been formally confirmed that + to hit can allow for Tesla procs.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, they buffed carbines. You now actually have a reason to take them. I would field both blasters and carbines on the table.
Though not in the same squad, obviously.
10 tesla immortals with MWBD
Hit on 2+
Proc on 5+
If I'm reading it correctly
That would be great, but it hasn't been formally confirmed that + to hit can allow for Tesla procs.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, they buffed carbines. You now actually have a reason to take them. I would field both blasters and carbines on the table.
Though not in the same squad, obviously.
10 tesla immortals with MWBD
Hit on 2+
Proc on 5+
If I'm reading it correctly
That would be great, but it hasn't been formally confirmed that + to hit can allow for Tesla procs.
Well, in their Twitch stream, Frankie and Reece from Frontline Gaming clearly stated that this is the case. Considering that they did a lot of the playtesting for the 8th...
It says on a roll of 6+ after all, not on a natural roll of a 6 (like it does on describing Perils of the Warp in the BRB, for example).
I say that it works like that.
That just seems like such a great core for the force . From what I have been reading tho is a lot of people seem to not like wraiths and scarabs.
doomsday ark is good but I think heavy destroyers are better might be preference tho
I'm pretty sure you want an Overlord of some description in your bog standard build. MWBD is too good to pass on IMO. My version of the above looks similar, but I think my first unit of Immortals would be 15 man - it's harder to wipe and you reap greater benefit from MWBD. I also like that points-wise this puts them about even with the Warrior Squads (I don't know why that matters to me but it does).
I like Scarabs fine personally, great tar pit for the point and they have decent movement. For 38 pts I don't mind the Wraiths either. The best thing about them might the psychology though, because they're not actually that scary in HtHIMO. Good for mopping up support units and grabbing objectives though. Both units are in the second wave of what I'd consider for a list, after the core as I'm deciding on how to fill certain battlefield roles.
Sounds limited but thoughts on the Tesla cannon over the Gauss cannon on the annihilation barge to keep everything firing at full ballistic skill since they are all assault?
That just seems like such a great core for the force . From what I have been reading tho is a lot of people seem to not like wraiths and scarabs.
doomsday ark is good but I think heavy destroyers are better might be preference tho
I'm pretty sure you want an Overlord of some description in your bog standard build. MWBD is too good to pass on IMO. My version of the above looks similar, but I think my first unit of Immortals would be 15 man - it's harder to wipe and you reap greater benefit from MWBD. I also like that points-wise this puts them about even with the Warrior Squads (I don't know why that matters to me but it does).
I like Scarabs fine personally, great tar pit for the point and they have decent movement. For 38 pts I don't mind the Wraiths either. The best thing about them might the psychology though, because they're not actually that scary in HtHIMO. Good for mopping up support units and grabbing objectives though. Both units are in the second wave of what I'd consider for a list, after the core as I'm deciding on how to fill certain battlefield roles.
Max unit of immortals is 10 from what I am reading
buddha wrote: Sounds limited but thoughts on the Tesla cannon over the Gauss cannon on the annihilation barge to keep everything firing at full ballistic skill since they are all assault?
Tesla cannon did not get buffed, so it's still only assault 3, which means it's still lame. Depending on the target the gauss cannon does half the damage of the annihilation berge, a heavy 2 weapon -3 rend outdoes and assault 8 with no rend and a much higher strength. The only way to make tesla work is with massed fire which immortals and Tomb blades can pull off. The problem is twofold, first the lack of targets with a toughness 5, 6 or 7, those are a very small minority of the units you'll see. With that being the case str 5 is as good against the much more common toughness 4 as a destructor and str 5 is just as good against the very common toughness 8 as a tesla destructor. The second problem is that AP is not a smooth transition, ap -1 is not a little better then ap 0, it can be up too twice as powerful if you are shooting at TEQ. Even against MEQ it's half again as good.
There are a few ways to fix it, such as increasing the strength or the rate of fire, but those kind of changes will be exceedingly rare. Instead, my expectation is that when they do another balance pass say in december for the new chapter approved, they will probably just reduce the points of the annihilation barge, A new cost of 120 or so will bring it into line with the similar profiles in the necron army.
A few other units that could use points reductions:
Obelisk is less effective than a monolith in almost every situation, and is more expensive. It's paying thru the nose for gravity pulse, which is so situational that I wish they would just get rid of it.
Doom scythe is fairly awful, tesla is as above underwhelming, and it always takes a penalty to hit with the deathray because it has a minimum movement.
How do we teleport infantry via Obyrons Ghostmantle if our infantry units have the Dynasty keyword and not Sautekh? Does Dynasty become Sautekh\Nihilakh if we use Sautekh \Nililakh Characters/HQs?
skoffs wrote: Hey, did someone say Night/Doom Scythes can fire at anything regardless of facing? pg. 268 has info about facings that would indicate the guns only have a 90 degree arc (for flyers only. regular vehicles don't appear to have that restriction)
Says they can leave combat air space and come back on in later turns, too. Guess we don't need to worry about flying in squares in the middle of the table after all?
Also, as we're near the top of a new page, guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to post that stuff about the new thread again for more visibility-
Note it says "Death From the Skies" Missions use the following ADDITIONAL rules: ..."
That does not apply in normal play.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Odrankt wrote: How do we teleport infantry via Obyrons Ghostmantle if our infantry units have the Dynasty keyword and not Sautekh? Does Dynasty become Sautekh\Nihilakh if we use Sautekh \Nililakh Characters/HQs?
The keyword <Dynasty> is a place holder for the name of the Dynasty you are using.
If you want to use Obyron's Ghostwalk Mantle you have to fill in the place holder with "Sautekh Dynasty"
The sad thing now is that everyone should take Sautekh Dynasty unless you are trying to gimp yourself for no reason. It just gives you more benefits without any drawbacks. The only thing you lose is Trazyn, who is probably our worst HQ choice.
That just seems like such a great core for the force . From what I have been reading tho is a lot of people seem to not like wraiths and scarabs.
doomsday ark is good but I think heavy destroyers are better might be preference tho
I'm pretty sure you want an Overlord of some description in your bog standard build. MWBD is too good to pass on IMO. My version of the above looks similar, but I think my first unit of Immortals would be 15 man - it's harder to wipe and you reap greater benefit from MWBD. I also like that points-wise this puts them about even with the Warrior Squads (I don't know why that matters to me but it does).
I like Scarabs fine personally, great tar pit for the point and they have decent movement. For 38 pts I don't mind the Wraiths either. The best thing about them might the psychology though, because they're not actually that scary in HtHIMO. Good for mopping up support units and grabbing objectives though. Both units are in the second wave of what I'd consider for a list, after the core as I'm deciding on how to fill certain battlefield roles.
Max unit of immortals is 10 from what I am reading
If Zahndrekh is embarked in a Ghost Ark, he has to disembark first for Obyron to be able to use his Ghostwalk Mantle, right?
(can't just Ghostwalk to within 6" of the Ark, correct?)
Sautekh's nice and all, but I'm holding out for Maynarkh.
Doubtful that we'll get a reliable way to deliver Kutlakh into melee (or any other HQ) without a very generous FAQ regarding invasion beamers and the gate, but I'll take Toholk buffing our artillery until then!
And maybe the sentry pylons will still be good. Gauss Exterminators ought to be actually usable now, too.
skoffs wrote: If Zahndrekh is embarked in a Ghost Ark, he has to disembark first for Obyron to be able to use his Ghostwalk Mantle, right?
(can't just Ghostwalk to within 6" of the Ark, correct?)
Huh. That's a great question, I think the right answer is "its complicated".
1.The rules say that embarked models may not "do anything or be affected in any way". That part wouldn't prevent it since Zahndrekh isn't doing anything or being affected.
2. However, the transport rules also use the phrase "set it up on the battlefield" in reference to a disembarking squad. That suggests that prior to exiting the vehicle the model(s) in quesiton are not "set up on the battle field".
3. The transport rules also use the phrase "instead of being set up separately" to refer to transported models who begin the game inside a transport, which suggests that despite 2 above, the models are in some fashion considered to be 'co-set up'. That reading might suggest that Zahndrekh could be considered to inhabit the same space as the vehicle while being transported.
I'm not sure how that all parses out (YMDC maybe) but that's the relevant verbiage. I'd love for 3 to be the answer.
@Odrankt - no stacking sadly, the rule on the two models is the same, using the phrase "within 3" of any friendly Cryptek".
Actinium wrote: 'A unit cannot benefit from both the Master Technomancer and Technomancer abilities in the same turn.'
So 4+ is the best it gets.
Thats true but both the Cryptek and Orikan have Tachnomancer with the Cryptek affecting <dynasty> and Orikan affecting Sautekh . So really I am asking is two different wording of Technomancer stackable even if there both affecting a Sautekh unit.
That just seems like such a great core for the force . From what I have been reading tho is a lot of people seem to not like wraiths and scarabs.
doomsday ark is good but I think heavy destroyers are better might be preference tho
I'm leaning in a similar way. I don't know how many of each of those you need to take, but the Cryptek seems like the best HQ by far. He's a hundred points, acts as a huge buff for warriors and should be safe in the middle of the blob. You definitely want warriors and immortals. Ghost Arks also provide a slightly different support package but again they seem great. Outside of this you take things that fit your meta and support the troop blobs. Maybe you take a Overlord or D Lord in order to buff some shooting? Throw on a rez orb and that Overlord could do some work. Perhaps Szeras as a super Cryptek that just hangs out in the foot slogging blob? Cryptek seems best though because it seems like the HQ hangs out and gives buffs.
After that you can go two ways. You either take some melee to protect your advancing gunline, or you take more shooting and just use some cheap screening units to eat some charges. Maybe a big gun in the backfield and a couple units of Destroyers/Pretorians to harass and go after the meaty targets. I'm actually leaning towards the second. I'm probably overlooking the C'tans.
Grimgold wrote: Having had two games against very different armies where the units performed similarly, I'm going to say nope to the canoptek units. scarabs and wraiths just aren't cutting the mustard. Destroyers are godly, 3 wounds a piece and packing enough heat to melt a tank, literally. Going to play with my list some and see what i can come up with.
Disagree a bit on Wraiths. Their job is not, and has never been, to kill things. They're a relatively cheap (now cheaper with a better statline!) Shock Assault unit. They get up the board nigh-instantly, and require a lot of shooting to drop down. Sure they don't stand back up, but if they're left to their own devices, they'll wreak havoc in your opponent's infantry lines.
We need ways to touch more of the board. Infantry blobs are super good now, but they're slow. Praets are pretty squishy for their point cost and while yes, they can come back, there's a pretty non-zero chance they just get wiped.
I think while Night Scythes are a bit overcosted, we sorta need them to get up the board at a reasonable speed. Whether that's in the form of Zahndrekh/Obyron combos or just dropping out Immortals/Warriors, either way is better than hoofing it and eating the shots.
We're definitely (Tomb) Kings of the midfield, but there seem to be a lot of armies still playing the super-ranged game and camping deployment zones with Devastators, Suits, etc, and we can't interact with that by walking.
Ghost arc with Zahndrek and Orikan. A Lychguard with Scythes + Praetorians stand ready. And the deciever of course + Obyron
The deciever teleports the ghost arcs with all characters to the front lines. And I hope he can get the praetorians too (I will reroll if nescessary).
Then the characters go out and Obyron ports the lychguard to Zahndrek. In the first turn the Praetorians will shoot at something, the Lychguard and Obyron will charge. In the end I will have 3 character + C'tan + 2melee units in the face of my opponent :-).
This is actually hilarious. Sucks that you can't bring less than 10 Warriors and pop them in there with Zahndrekh, but it's still a hilarious combo nonetheless.
Ghost arc with Zahndrek and Orikan. A Lychguard with Scythes + Praetorians stand ready. And the deciever of course + Obyron
The deciever teleports the ghost arcs with all characters to the front lines. And I hope he can get the praetorians too (I will reroll if nescessary).
Then the characters go out and Obyron ports the lychguard to Zahndrek. In the first turn the Praetorians will shoot at something, the Lychguard and Obyron will charge. In the end I will have 3 character + C'tan + 2melee units in the face of my opponent :-).
This is actually hilarious. Sucks that you can't bring less than 10 Warriors and pop them in there with Zahndrekh, but it's still a hilarious combo nonetheless.
The rules allow you to field a 9 man unit of warriors as long as you pay for the 10th warrior.
So you could run 9 man units + HQ in each Ghost Ark.
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: Outside of this you take things that fit your meta and support the troop blobs. Maybe you take a Overlord or D Lord in order to buff some shooting?
Some clarification for new players who might be reading:
Destroyer Lords only really buff other Destroyers for shooting. They don't interact with Warriors (unless it's popping a ResOrb).
If you want to buff troop blob shooting an Overlord giving them MWBD, with a Stalker on the table, will be VERY effective.
Ghost arc with Zahndrek and Orikan. A Lychguard with Scythes + Praetorians stand ready. And the deciever of course + Obyron
The deciever teleports the ghost arcs with all characters to the front lines. And I hope he can get the praetorians too (I will reroll if nescessary).
Then the characters go out and Obyron ports the lychguard to Zahndrek. In the first turn the Praetorians will shoot at something, the Lychguard and Obyron will charge. In the end I will have 3 character + C'tan + 2melee units in the face of my opponent :-).
This is actually hilarious. Sucks that you can't bring less than 10 Warriors and pop them in there with Zahndrekh, but it's still a hilarious combo nonetheless.
The rules allow you to field a 9 man unit of warriors as long as you pay for the 10th warrior.
So you could run 9 man units + HQ in each Ghost Ark.
While that's true, I don't know how I would feel about doing that. Like yeah, you're paying for it, but I really don't feel like that's the spirit of the rule.
Besides, it's pretty much a gimmick strat anyway. Lychguard bombs are funny now that you can teleport + charge, but at the end of the day they're still a really slow unit that wants to be in combat that doesn't really have a reliable way to get there or stay there. Consolidating into combats and having the occasional jump + charge is good, but the game is still going to be heavily in favor of mobility + shooting, so I don't think Lychguard will be the thing to have once the dust settles.
Ghost arc with Zahndrek and Orikan. A Lychguard with Scythes + Praetorians stand ready. And the deciever of course + Obyron
The deciever teleports the ghost arcs with all characters to the front lines. And I hope he can get the praetorians too (I will reroll if nescessary).
Then the characters go out and Obyron ports the lychguard to Zahndrek. In the first turn the Praetorians will shoot at something, the Lychguard and Obyron will charge. In the end I will have 3 character + C'tan + 2melee units in the face of my opponent :-).
This is actually hilarious. Sucks that you can't bring less than 10 Warriors and pop them in there with Zahndrekh, but it's still a hilarious combo nonetheless.
The rules allow you to field a 9 man unit of warriors as long as you pay for the 10th warrior.
So you could run 9 man units + HQ in each Ghost Ark.
Is this for the "Advanced" (matched) rules too or just the basic rules?
If available for all game types, yeah, this opens up a lot of possibility, particularly with the Deceiver Bomb.
Actinium wrote: 'A unit cannot benefit from both the Master Technomancer and Technomancer abilities in the same turn.'
So 4+ is the best it gets.
Thats true but both the Cryptek and Orikan have Tachnomancer with the Cryptek affecting <dynasty> and Orikan affecting Sautekh . So really I am asking is two different wording of Technomancer stackable even if there both affecting a Sautekh unit.
Going out on a limb, but there is something odd about the wording that I have convinced myself I am just reading too much into it.
But here it is: It seems that each "Technomancer" stacks with each other and adds cumulative per copy of the ability across the whole table. It does not say "this cryptek", the distance between each Cryptek is not mentioned, nor does it say that it does not stack with itself.
Example:
Three units of Warriors spread across the table, each one has one of the same <dynasty> Crpytek with them.
Actinium wrote: 'A unit cannot benefit from both the Master Technomancer and Technomancer abilities in the same turn.'
So 4+ is the best it gets.
Thats true but both the Cryptek and Orikan have Tachnomancer with the Cryptek affecting <dynasty> and Orikan affecting Sautekh . So really I am asking is two different wording of Technomancer stackable even if there both affecting a Sautekh unit.
Going out on a limb, but there is something odd about the wording that I have convinced myself I am just reading too much into it.
But here it is: It seems that each "Technomancer" stacks with each other and adds cumulative per copy of the ability across the whole table. It does not say "this cryptek", the distance between each Cryptek is not mentioned, nor does it say that it does not stack with itself.
Example:
Three units of Warriors spread across the table, each one has one of the same <dynasty> Crpytek with them.
Ghost arc with Zahndrek and Orikan. A Lychguard with Scythes + Praetorians stand ready. And the deciever of course + Obyron
The deciever teleports the ghost arcs with all characters to the front lines. And I hope he can get the praetorians too (I will reroll if nescessary).
Then the characters go out and Obyron ports the lychguard to Zahndrek. In the first turn the Praetorians will shoot at something, the Lychguard and Obyron will charge. In the end I will have 3 character + C'tan + 2melee units in the face of my opponent :-).
This is actually hilarious. Sucks that you can't bring less than 10 Warriors and pop them in there with Zahndrekh, but it's still a hilarious combo nonetheless.
The rules allow you to field a 9 man unit of warriors as long as you pay for the 10th warrior.
So you could run 9 man units + HQ in each Ghost Ark.
I think tier listing the HQs is a bit of a hard task, because they're simply best fit or not best fit based on what's in the rest of your force. Clearly Anrakyr is an excellent choice if you're slogging Infantry, but a poor choice if you're running all Destroyers and Wraiths for example - The Destroyer Lord is better. If you're not running Destroyers, then the Destroyer Lord is bad, and so on.
Imotekh: He has REALLY good shooting compared to everyone else in slot, while retaining almost Warscythe level CC ability. Staff of the Destroyer can be easily overlooked as an 'upgraded Staff of Light', but his firepower is superior to TWO SoL combined when shooting at anything multiple wound. 12"->18" is a big upgrade, and so is S5->S6 in 8th Ed on a multi-wound platform, because T5 W2+ is a very common profile found in 8th edition. All your flavours of Space Marine Bikers, Crisis suits, Inceptors, a multitude of Necron units, and many more are T5 W2+. Then on top of that he just throws out a D6 once a game of Mortal Wounds, plus a random flamer for fun. He's a pocket unit of Destroyers for shooting.
I think if you want to pay the points to have your main HQ contribute badass firepower on top of your standard MWBD dispenser, then Imotekh is the way to go...the only question becomes a matter of points efficiency. Because Imotekh costs exactly the same as two Overlords equipped with SoL. And twoMWBD is really, really good. 20 Tesla Immortals advancing any direction at 6"+D6" a turn spitting out 24" 40 Shot 3+ hit 5+ triple hit S5 shooting is an absolute force, and if they're backed up by also fast moving Destroyers that can take care of your multiwounders, then you don't really need an Imotekh.
So I think the ideal Imotekh army would look like one that wants to advance on the enemy to shoot and melee, and is happy to get dirty in Close combat where he can use his Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs to boost Flayed Ones performance. A combined arms approach of assaulting/shooting your opponent to death, a bit like ol Imotekh himself, that doesn't mind leaving out Destroyers for other things.
Nemesor Zahndrekh & Vargard Obyron: Might as well be real, these two go together, for a total cost of 331 points. Hefty, so what do we get? Well, a basic Overlord with MWBD and Staff of Light, a Lord with TLW and Warscythe is 203 points, so we're paying 128 points for very minor stat buffs on the Lord and some tricks. The tricks being worth those points depends on whether you can pull them off or not. Lets break them down.
Counter Tactics: Advance or pull off a charge towards an enemy character, and at the start of their next turn if you're within 12" you shut off their auras for that turn. This is powerful - provided you're happy to be mixing it up in the face of said character and the army he's buffing.
Ghostwalk Mantle: This is a really strong ability - because it happens at the end of the movement phase, doesn't disallow charging, you can pull a unit from combat without shooting/charging penalty, and only has a 1" enemy and models within 6" of Zandrekh placement restriction. So you can do things like give Lychguard a long reach charge (Advance Zandrekh 5+d6", port Lychguard within 6", charge), or remove an engaged unit of Warriors/Immortals from combat instead of falling back, and Rapidfire/Assault with them immediately, which is like a free turn's worth of offense from the unit, amazing.
Transient Madness: Free extra buff handout, but random - and they're split between shooting, charging, and fighting. So to really make use of this ability, you need both shooting and assaulting factored in to your army choice with Zandrekh & Obyron. This is not that bad because Counter Tactics and Ghostwalk Mantle pretty much dictate you should be happy to fight close-up with your army selection.
So what works well with these guys? I think you want Warrior blocks supported by Ghost Ark(s) with probably some Lychguard backing them up as the final word, add in their Sautekh buddy Orikan, and just walk your opponent off the board. Bloody hard to deal with by shooting alone, and you have answers to assault thanks to their tricks.
Anrakyr the Traveller: This is the other 'block of dudes' named HQ. And he's really good too. 167 points puts him 55 points over the standard Overlord with a Warscythe, so what does he get for it? Mainly, he gets his +1A within 3" Aura, which is the best part. +1A is often the best possible Transient Madness roll Zandrekh can make, and Anrakyr gets it non-randomly and as an aura, albeit a small one.
He also gets a jump in his Warscythe from S7 to S8, which is one of the bigger deal Strength differences in the new 40k. S7 isn't a whole lot better than S5 most of the time - both wound T4 on 3+ and T8 on 5+, so S7 only has advantages against T3, T6 and T7. Going to S8 unlocks both 2+ wounding on T4 (multiwound T4 being a great target for a Warscythe), and easier wounding on both T7 and T8.
Tachyon Arrow and Mind in the Machine both act as bonus 'shooting' abilities for a Warscythe Overlord - it's no Imotekh firepower consistency, but can be worth some multi-wound damage over a game, and Necrons won't complain about that.
So what works well with Anrakyr? Well, if you're taking an Overlord to be more than just a MWBD dispenser for a unit of Tesla Immortals - say you're running 3 Troops units as a walking phalanx, plus you have a unit or so of Lychguard, Flayed Ones, or Praetorians in your army, then Anrakyr is a steal for his extras.
Trazyn the Infinite: The good with Trazyn is that he's just a mere 27 points more costly than an Overlord with a Warscythe - The 'bad' is that he doesn't really give you anything much that's easy to use for those points outside of +1W, and D3 damage on his weapon over a standard 2, which allows for some hotter rolling. Given he's designed to be fighting characters only, -1 for AP on his staff isn't that big of a deal, as characters often have invulnerables only slightly worse than their armour save.
If you can slay a character or two with Trazyn, dealing mortal wounds to every unit (of that faction) within 6" is absolutely worth the 27 points, it's a fantastic boon. If you don't engineer that scenario, then he's just a slightly more expensive overlord with 1 more wound that can't fight most non-character units as well.
Surrogate hosts comes into play to let you deny slay the warlord, either it's a really big deal, or nothing.
What works well with Trazyn? Crypteks and Lords...if you have multiples of these in your army then he's a decent choice over the standard Overlord for not much more cost. He's not really comparable to all the aforementioned named characters as much, as while they give some impressive boosts, they also strongarm you into playing certain styles and formations(phalanx) to maximise those boosts. Trazyn is just...happy existing looking for Characters to slap up. Dividing your army across the field is much less of a big deal for him, much like the standard Overlord.
Standard Overlord: Really strong, because MWBD is strong. Statline is good for the points. MWBD works great with Tesla Immortals as everyone seems to have figured out. The strength of the Overlord is his cheap cost to access MWBD, and that you aren't armtwisted into any particular phalanx type playstyle with him beyond having at least one other unit that can use MWBD. So you can make armies with just one or two Overlords with just one or two units of Immortals, the Immortals become very mobile by Necron standards (6"+D6" movement, firing at full effect within 24", and fill the rest of your points out with other independent maneuver options like Destroyers, Deathmarks, Wraiths, Scarabs etc.
Catacomb Command Barge: for 176 points base with stock equipment, this gives you an Overlord ranged firepower and a powerful wounds profile with QS, at the expense of being able to be shot back by removing his character rule. This has pros and cons - not being a <Character> means every enemy trick designed to target your characters can't work anymore on your Overlord. He can <Fly> too, and with his fast movement, you can get him forward quickly, and leave assault and still shoot. I think he's decent in a mobility army including with other QS vehicles for target saturation like Triarch Stalkers. The stupid thing with him is he can't MWBD Praetorians, removing a reason you might actually want to take him and Praetorians in an obvious combo in a mobility army.
The rest of the non MWBDHQ options are basically taken for their buff abilities.
Lord: Taken for The Lord's Will. I did the math earlier for the benefits of these guys, basically if you have multiple 10+ strong units, which with Necrons is often the case, you definitely want a Lord in your army to keep them in line. Can also carry a Res Orb, which is a good option if you have named Overlords/Cryptek rounding out your HQ.
Cryptek: His 5+ Invulnerable against shooting buff keeps your units with some bodies remaining on the field, so that they can take advantage of his +1 to Reanimation protocols. Also a choice for a Res Orb.
Orikan: His 5+ Invulnerable aura extends out 6" (over 3") and also applies to units in melee, he loses SoL shooting and the ability to buy a Res Orb, in exchange for costing 39 more points. He can also likely get a strong melee profile within the last half of the game. He's a great choice if you're playing phalanx and expecting to mix it up in melee.
Illuminor Szeras: 39 more points over a regular Cryptek again, he loses the 5+ Invulnerable in exchange for randomly buffing a Warrior or Immortal unit every turn. He also has a pocket assault Dark Lance. He has the same Reanimation protocols buff, with a weird quirk that it can boost Triach Praetorians while all the others can't. He has an improved statline with +1M and can melee better than a Cryptek with +3 Attacks, +1W, +1SV. He's quite a bit different to a regular Cryptek and probably finds a nice home with a Warriors/Ghost Ark army.
Destroyer Lord: If you're playing with Destroyers in any sort of reasonable number then take the Destroyer Lord!
Doesnt seem to be alot of love for Spyders,
I didnt think they were too bad assuming i understand properly,
Initially they are not that Expensive, only 76 points,
But its their "Scarab Hive" thats got me interested,
the way its worded seems to be a multiplier,
Example, if i had 2 groups of scarabs and two spyders, i could spawn 4 extra scarabs,
and so on, 4 groups of scarabs and just 2 spyders, could spawn 8 additional scarabs,
What would you get vs. Ork boyz horde at 1000 point battle?
Anihillation Barges Look good (?) because they are fast 12"Fly and have a lot of tesla shooting.
Tesla Immortals, 3 canpotec scarabs for blocking Ork blobs. What else?
I'm not really into canoptek anything this edition, with weapons doing multiple wounds, they feel too fragile. Necrons heavily rely on RP to stay in the game, and it feels like our points are balanced around that, even on the units that don't have RP. If they are going to be throw away points they should have good offense, but they don't. Some will say they are distractions, and they are for the one or two rounds they last. melee is a much more dangerous place, and even a single failed save could be a dead wraith.
With that said you can only replace losses with spyders, they can't farm up more scarabs now. says so in the scarab hive rule.
SirDalavar wrote: Doesnt seem to be alot of love for Spyders, I didnt think they were too bad assuming i understand properly,
Initially they are not that Expensive, only 76 points,
But its their "Scarab Hive" thats got me interested, the way its worded seems to be a multiplier,
Example, if i had 2 groups of scarabs and two spyders, i could spawn 4 extra scarabs, and so on, 4 groups of scarabs and just 2 spyders, could spawn 8 additional scarabs,
they should start paying for themselves.
I would appreciate anyone elses interpretation.
And thats the biggest problem with spyders. They are uselles like scarab farm cos they only could summon 1base per unit of scarabs at the start of your turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My idea for standart "ETC comp" necron army in 8th edition:
Orikan 143 Overlord + scythe +orb 147
20 warriors 240 13 warriors 156 10 immortals (gauss or tesla - not sure yet) 170
Nightbringer 230 (warlord, legendary figther or tenacious surviver - according to the situation)
9* Scarabs 117 9* Scarabs 117 6* wraiths 228
3 Heavy destroyers 225 3 Heavy destroyers 225
total 1998
Core phalanx for durability and solid control of mid board and least 2 objectives. (dont forget objectives must be apart 12" from centre, so in fact they are closer together than i 7th edition). Scarabs and wraith for protections against alfa strike, hordes armies and for fast control of objectives. Nithbringer for solving counter charge against ugly big things (according to the situation pumped with legendary fighter for charge). Scarabs IMHO will be most versatile unit for necrons. Cheap, fast, a lot of wound against shooting, great for killing small units on objectives.
I see no reason to run 6 wraiths. Why not just 2*3?
Same for scarabs: I will also run some for objective grabbing...but why not just 3*3 bases?
You get no advantage here for large troops without RP. Smaller troops are better IMHO for the same reasons than before (more targets for your opponent, less problems with LD, can hold more objectives and so on)
I actually also like Tomb Blades, but here you get an advantage if you take many and 9 are IMHO so expensive...
That just seems like such a great core for the force . From what I have been reading tho is a lot of people seem to not like wraiths and scarabs.
doomsday ark is good but I think heavy destroyers are better might be preference tho
I disagree with bits of this. MWBD is such a strong buff that I think an Overlord is a near necessity; because it can buff any unit, a set of 3 heavy destroyers essentially becomes BS10 when buffed, and that makes their shooting go from averaging ~5.4 wounds to a tanks to ~6.8. That's a huge deal when we're so limited in AT! I also think the Immortal/Warrior choice will boil down to whether you need to deal with MEQ or hordes - Warriors are substantially better against Boyz, Hormagaunts, Genestealers, etc, but Immortals are way better VS MEQ. Likewise, I can see one Ghost Ark and Cryptek being a solid investment, but do you really need 2? That's a huge points investment for units which don't shoot particularly well, don't help with the anti-tank weakness and are pretty slow.
Actually, I think with the new deployment options, that's one of our biggest weaknesses. I've sort of come to accept that most lists will need 6 Heavy Destroyers (or equivalent), but actually getting into range of the opponent to shoot them at all is a big issue. We're at real risk of being shot to death before we get to do anything.
Xyxel wrote:What would you get vs. Ork boyz horde at 1000 point battle?
Anihillation Barges Look good (?) because they are fast 12"Fly and have a lot of tesla shooting.
Tesla Immortals, 3 canpotec scarabs for blocking Ork blobs. What else?
You're going to need more than 3 scarab bases if you want them to screen you, you can take 100 boyz in 1k pretty comfortably. I think your best bet is a bunch of warriors and Orikan to get the 5++ and reanimation in combat. Also, anything you can do to disrupt their charge will be a great help.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My idea for standart "ETC comp" necron army in 8th edition:
Orikan 143
Overlord + scythe +orb 147
20 warriors 240
13 warriors 156
10 immortals (gauss or tesla - not sure yet) 170
Nightbringer 230 (warlord, legendary figther or tenacious surviver - according to the situation)
9* Scarabs 117
9* Scarabs 117
6* wraiths 228
3 Heavy destroyers 225
3 Heavy destroyers 225
total 1998
Core phalanx for durability and solid control of mid board and least 2 objectives. (dont forget objectives must be apart 12" from centre, so in fact they are closer together than i 7th edition). Scarabs and wraith for protections against alfa strike, hordes armies and for fast control of objectives. Nithbringer for solving counter charge against ugly big things (according to the situation pumped with legendary fighter for charge).
Scarabs IMHO will be most versatile unit for necrons. Cheap, fast, a lot of wound against shooting, great for killing small units on objectives.
I think Deathmarks are too good to leave out, either as 5 or 10. Replace one Scarab unit with 5 Deathmarks. Their defensive ability to interrupt your opponents 'deepstrike' moves is too useful, especially if he's trying to charge - replace one unit of Scarabs for one unit of 5 Deathmarks which can block a charge lane easily.
Melionodr wrote: I see no reason to run 6 wraiths. Why not just 2*3?
Same for scarabs: I will also run some for objective grabbing...but why not just 3*3 bases?
You get no advantage here for large troops without RP. Smaller troops are better IMHO for the same reasons than before (more targets for your opponent, less problems with LD, can hold more objectives and so on)
I actually also like Tomb Blades, but here you get an advantage if you take many and 9 are IMHO so expensive...
It´s in batalion detachment and it has only 3 fast slots. Adding more will cost you 1 more HQ´s with outriders detachment. And i am not sure if with everyone having spit fire aren´t small units less efective as in 7th edition. Tomb blades are great, but have same problems like normal destroyers they are quite expensive.
I think Deathmarks are too good to leave out, either as 5 or 10. Replace one Scarab unit with 5 Deathmarks. Their defensive ability to interrupt your opponents 'deepstrike' moves is too useful, especially if he's trying to charge - replace one unit of Scarabs for one unit of 5 Deathmarks which can block a charge lane easily.
You dont need deathmarks. You interrupt deepstrikes with scarab buble (maximum distance= phalanx -18" /enemy cant jump between your units/ - scarabs - 9" enemy deepstriking when needed, thats realy big buble when necessary).
5 or 10 deathmarks has only a litlle impact on horde alfa strike army. And dont forget that you put them 9" from enemy, so you have no chance to block charge lane cos enemy is already 9" inches from you and you have no space to put deathmarks there.
I guess there will be weapons out there such that ''T3'' Scarabs will die in droves.
you are right but in fact they are more durable against low ap shooting than warriors (when not in HQ buble), for kiling 9 scarab swarms you need about 73 bolter shots, for 10 warriors you just need 60 bolter shots, for 3 wraiths about 120 bolter shots . Yeah they are more likely die on multiple dmg weapons but man if someone is wasting his high AP multiple dmg weapons on scarabs then i am happy with it :-D Maybe 3 wraiths will be better, but they dont have enough bodies to make big wall against charge, its just 3 models.
I think Deathmarks are too good to leave out, either as 5 or 10. Replace one Scarab unit with 5 Deathmarks. Their defensive ability to interrupt your opponents 'deepstrike' moves is too useful, especially if he's trying to charge - replace one unit of Scarabs for one unit of 5 Deathmarks which can block a charge lane easily.
You dont need deathmarks. You interrupt deepstrikes with scarab buble (maximum distance= phalanx -18" /enemy cant jump between your units/ - scarabs - 9" enemy deepstriking when needed, thats realy big buble when necessary).
5 or 10 deathmarks has only a litlle impact on horde alfa strike army. And dont forget that you put them 9" from enemy, so you have no chance to block charge lane cos enemy is already 9" inches from you and you have no space to put deathmarks there.
Also if you use Ethereal Interception you need to be 12" away from the unit you follow.
opinions?
good job Skoffs 
. Looks like they're going to need a good talking to on Facebook.
, and fill the rest of your points out with other independent maneuver options like Destroyers, Deathmarks, Wraiths, Scarabs etc.
