I think Deathmarks are too good to leave out, either as 5 or 10. Replace one Scarab unit with 5 Deathmarks. Their defensive ability to interrupt your opponents 'deepstrike' moves is too useful, especially if he's trying to charge - replace one unit of Scarabs for one unit of 5 Deathmarks which can block a charge lane easily.
You dont need deathmarks. You interrupt deepstrikes with scarab buble (maximum distance= phalanx -18" /enemy cant jump between your units/ - scarabs - 9" enemy deepstriking when needed, thats realy big buble when necessary).
5 or 10 deathmarks has only a litlle impact on horde alfa strike army. And dont forget that you put them 9" from enemy, so you have no chance to block charge lane cos enemy is already 9" inches from you and you have no space to put deathmarks there.
Also if you use Ethereal Interception you need to be 12" away from the unit you follow.
You guys need to read your Deathmarks rules again.
When you Ethereal Intercept, you set up within 12" of the unit you are intercepting, not outside 12".
So yes, you can block charge lanes with them.
By all means you can surround yourself up to 360 degrees with scarabs as best you can, or, you can use Deathmarks to achieve the same thing whereever they choose to go. The Deathmarks even get to shoot first. If the Deathmarks are all the placement defense you need, that frees up 9 Scarab bases to do something else. Or, if you have no need for denying placements, you can just use them as a weapon yourself, or objective grab, etc. The point is with both you have some flexibility which is what makes a good tournament list a good tournament list.
Personally I plan on using Deathmarks in a completely different role. This edition has a ton of low wound support characters that enhance army dynamics. Think crypteks, the various wound healing characters (i.e. Apothecaries), IG comissars and order giving characters, psykers, etc. The problem with using snipers to go after the high wound good armor save HQs is that you can't put out enough gas to kill them outright. However, disruption of the enhancement networks could cripple how the army functions as a whole.
And Deathmarks are cheap. Sure, their guns are just Bolters, and may be the weakest baseline guns in our army, but a min squad is a pittance compared to most other min squads in the game, and they'll almost always be set up in Rapid Fire range to get a MW or two in. They're probably one of the more flexible units in our options, all things considered. Low cost, dope mobility, blocking deep strikers, and even though they're only 1W each, they're 3+ and have RP so they do require a reasonable amount of focus fire (especially if you get them in cover for that sweet 2+).
The more I think about Praetorians the more I'm ok with them. They're infantry with a 12" move, so they'll be 2+ in cover, and their guns aren't too bad.
I'm seeing it like this: against opponents that can kill a whole unit in one go, like Tau or gunline SM (which is a very real thing with Bobby G, let me tell you what), Wraiths will be better since they're harder to kill, but against chip damage or in a densely packed board where the Praets can hide from shooting, they'll be better choices, since they have the ability to come back.
Actually does the math back that up? For 6 Wraiths (228) you can only get 6 Praetorians (210). Praets have guns, but 50% less wounds and no Invuln. Weaker attacks, but better AP.
If you give the Wraiths Transdimensional Beamers to give them a shooting attack, you get 6 Wraiths for 312. 9 Praetorians are 315. Wraiths get average of 12 shots, weaker S but same AP and d3 Damage. Hitting on 4+ though since it's heavy...
They're pretty comparable. 3++ is good, but so is AP-3 in combat. If Praets had a way to have a support character or had the ability to DS, I would say it wasn't even a contest, but honestly it's hard to pass up the durability boost from a Wraith.
Maybe if the game goes more Melee focused, with less shooting to kill the Praets before they get in, they'll be the better choice, but this is still 40k and things need to survive until combat.
Deathmarks are nice, but if the enemy knows how they work, it will be very hard to tactically place them. There are only 3inch to squeeze them, between 12 and 9 from the enemy, almost impossible to place 10 models. Lower than 10 deatmarks will never kill W5 or tougher character.
What do you think adding a Particle caster to Wraith. Its basicaly 1 extra S6 shooting and melle attack (pistol) for 4 points. Its an auto include for me.
I'm now thinking my last list was a bit too "toy heavy", i.e. tried to do too much. Most of the lists which look strong in 8th have been what I would traditionally call a spam list - in reality, it's just threat redundancy to mitigate damage.
Here's a different take:
Anrakyr the Traveller - 167
Illuminor Szeras - 143
2 Destroyers, 1 Heavy - 201
2 Destroyers, 1 Heavy - 201
4 Tomb Blades, Gauss - 168
3 Heavy Destroyers - 225
3 Heavy Destroyers - 225
Very spammy, quite uninteresting, but a lot of very tough models on the board. I split 10 warriors off the others to run as a screen against heavy assault armies. This list should do pretty well against Guard and Marine armies, just due to the sheer firepower and mobility.
3 Heavy Destroyers - 225
3 Heavy Destroyers - 225
Monolith - 381
This one feels very 3e to me. I don't think it's all that good, but hey, I got a monolith in it! I think it'd likely be better off with one unit less of Heavy Destroyers and more things like Tomb Blades, but it's a start.
Mostly, I'm worried about making it to the enemy in one piece, and surviving first turn charges. There's not many lists I can build which do both, but I'm gonna keep trying.
Requizen wrote: The more I think about Praetorians the more I'm ok with them.
The more I think about them, the more I think I need to compare them to Destroyers.
Shooting, their guns have the same base power (S5 AP-3), but Destroyers have 2 shots at 24" (that reroll 1s and deal d3D, possibly rerolling 1s to wound as well) and Praets only have 1 shot at 12" for 1D with no buffs possible unless Anrakyr is somehow near them. Obviously in combat Praets have the clear edge, with another 2 S5 AP-3 attacks vs the Destroyers 2 S4 AP-.
But what works out to be the more effective damage dealer?
5 Destroyers are the same price as 9 Rod Praetorians.
Who's damage to survivability ratio is better?
(and how much would adding a Destroyer Lord or Anrakyr affect them?)
mangar wrote: Deathmarks are nice, but if the enemy knows how they work, it will be very hard to tactically place them. There are only 3inch to squeeze them, between 12 and 9 from the enemy, almost impossible to place 10 models. Lower than 10 deatmarks will never kill W5 or tougher character.
Units of 5 give you better flexibility, and you can bring down 2 units of 5 for the same shooting as 10 if you think it's needed.
What do you think adding a Particle caster to Wraith. Its basicaly 1 extra S6 shooting and melle attack (pistol) for 4 points. Its an auto include for me.
Eh, it's not the worst idea? AP0 is kind of bad, but 4 points is essentially free, even for a full units that's only a 24 point upgrade. Maybe good? It'll shred light units but won't do much against tougher things.
I feel the meta is going to be very much about T5 3+ multiwound. It was pretty much there in 7th but now without deathstars and summoning and stuff, those are the best all arounder unit type. Particle Caster is 3+/3+ against it, but doesn't do anything about the armor. Transdimensional Beamers are 4+/5+ against them, but potentially more shots and potentially do multi-damage, so more potential for swing shooting.
I suppose the pistols are reliable and can fill out your last few points, so perhaps that's worthwhile, though.
Requizen wrote: The more I think about Praetorians the more I'm ok with them.
The more I think about them, the more I think I need to compare them to Destroyers.
Shooting, their guns have the same base power (S5 AP-3), but Destroyers have 2 shots at 24" (that reroll 1s and deal d3D, possibly rerolling 1s to wound as well) and Praets only have 1 shot at 12" for 1D with no buffs possible unless Anrakyr is somehow near them. Obviously in combat Praets have the clear edge, with another 2 S5 AP-3 attacks vs the Destroyers 2 S4 AP-.
But what works out to be the more effective damage dealer?
5 Destroyers are the same price as 9 Rod Praetorians.
Who's damage to survivability ratio is better?
(and how much would adding a Destroyer Lord or Anrakyr affect them?)
Depends on how fast things get into combat with them. Praets will do way better in the actual melee, but both can fall back and shoot. Destroyer's range and mobility is good, but there's only so much board and if a WK or Knight is getting up in your biz, then even with 10" move and 24" shooting, things will start to feel very claustrophobic.
Durability is such a crazy thing to math out now. 5 Destroyers gives you 15W, 9 Praets 18W. Same Save. If the damage on the weapons is 2, Destroyers are a bit more survivable - four 2D shots kills 2 Destroyers but 4 Praets. But if the damage is 3 or more, Praets are better because those shots are killing one model per pop either way. Destroyers come back with more wounds, but Praets will roll more dice and have more models to clear before they're fully gone.
col_impact wrote: The rules allow you to field a 9 man unit of warriors as long as you pay for the 10th warrior.
So you could run 9 man units + HQ in each Ghost Ark.
Is this for the "Advanced" (matched) rules too or just the basic rules?
If available for all game types, yeah, this opens up a lot of possibility, particularly with the Deceiver Bomb.
It's part of the Matched Play rules, but there is a catch in the Understrength Units rule...
Each unit's datasheet will describe how many models make up that unit. Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available.
Eyjio: The lists look not very promising. I'm sure successful Necron lists will look differently.
The phalanx is too vulnerable to play. There are several fast moving units out there which will hit a phalanx very hard.
wuestenfux wrote: Eyjio: The lists look not very promising. I'm sure successful Necron lists will look differently.
The phalanx is too vulnerable to play. There are several fast moving units out there which will hit a phalanx very hard.
col_impact wrote: The rules allow you to field a 9 man unit of warriors as long as you pay for the 10th warrior.
So you could run 9 man units + HQ in each Ghost Ark.
Is this for the "Advanced" (matched) rules too or just the basic rules?
If available for all game types, yeah, this opens up a lot of possibility, particularly with the Deceiver Bomb.
It's part of the Matched Play rules, but there is a catch in the Understrength Units rule...
Each unit's datasheet will describe how many models make up that unit. Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available.
That's really cool of them to include that.
WELP, looks like units of 9 Warriors + an HQ all in a Ghost Ark are completely fine... but will it be worth it? (no open topped, so those 9 Warriors aren't really going to be doing much)
I think Deathmarks are too good to leave out, either as 5 or 10. Replace one Scarab unit with 5 Deathmarks. Their defensive ability to interrupt your opponents 'deepstrike' moves is too useful, especially if he's trying to charge - replace one unit of Scarabs for one unit of 5 Deathmarks which can block a charge lane easily.
You dont need deathmarks. You interrupt deepstrikes with scarab buble (maximum distance= phalanx -18" /enemy cant jump between your units/ - scarabs - 9" enemy deepstriking when needed, thats realy big buble when necessary).
5 or 10 deathmarks has only a litlle impact on horde alfa strike army. And dont forget that you put them 9" from enemy, so you have no chance to block charge lane cos enemy is already 9" inches from you and you have no space to put deathmarks there.
Also if you use Ethereal Interception you need to be 12" away from the unit you follow.
Actually you need to be within 12" of the unit you follow. Either way, Deathmarks aren't blocking DS charges. If they could I'd all over a unit or two. I think Scarabs is the way to go. A lot of other armies seem to looking hard at DS type deployment (AM and Scions, and SM in general come to mind) and I think Scarabs are a pretty cost effective way of throwing a wrench in those plans. Units in reserves need to be on the board by turn three, so it's a little easier to plan out DS denial. It own't be 100% effective. obviously, but anything that forces sub-optimal deployment is fine. What the Necrons need is to gain an extra turn of close range shooting whenever possible, and the scarab bubble does that nicely for DS deployed enemy units.
Sure, your opponent can shoot them, but does anyone really care if someone spends shooting on 56 pts worth of scarabs? I know I don't. Also, against horde HtH armies that don't have DS, those scarabs can all be front facing and act as a nice little speed bump
Speaking of Scarabs, you know, we can use them to spam command points for 190 points...
[Outrider Detachment]
HQ - Lord (73 pts)
FAST
- 3x Scarabs (39 pts)
- 3x Scarabs (39 pts)
- 3x Scarabs (39 pts)
An Overlord would probably be better, so as to lend more MWBD buffs to the rest of the army (Canopteks can't get). That would still only be 218.
But if you just want cheap access to extra command points with a bunch of models to tarpit/clog deepstrike routes, this might be our go-to.
skoffs wrote: Speaking of Scarabs, you know, we can use them to spam command points for 190 points...
[Outrider Detachment]
HQ - Lord (73 pts)
FAST
- 3x Scarabs (39 pts)
- 3x Scarabs (39 pts)
- 3x Scarabs (39 pts)
An Overlord would probably be better, so as to lend more MWBD buffs to the rest of the army (Canopteks can't get). That would still only be 218.
But if you just want cheap access to extra command points with a bunch of models to tarpit/clog deepstrike routes, this might be our go-to.
Lords, ugh. Not my favorite HQ choice. This is a good place to take that second Cryptek that appears in a lot of lists though. If you were planning on scarabs anyway, and weren't going for the 9 CP formation (hah!) then yeah, it's pretty much a free CP. I like it.
A lot of players seem to be looking at 3 HQs anyway (Overlord, 2 x Cryptek) so why not split one off for extra CP goodness?
Ghost Arks are out. I know it seems dumb that we wouldn't include a transport for our troops, but the limitations are too much. It's generally agreed that we need to maximize unit sizes to utilize the potential of Reanimation Protocols, and 10-Warrior units just do not cut it. They'll get focused and taken out in no time. I'm pretty sure that's why the Ghost Ark offers the extra RP; to counter the fact that you have a smaller unit and need to hit all the RP rolls, so I do not see it as a bonus ability... I see it as just a necessity to make it semi-viable. Not to mention no more open-top. Plus, 170 pts can be used it a lot of other places. Instead, put 20-man squads and huff it across the board.
Triarch Praetorians aren't worth it. I'm upset about this, as I just bought 3 boxes (but such is the perils of buying units before edition drops). The biggest hit is that Praetorians do not include a <DYNASTY> tag, meaning we cannot cast MWBD from Zahndrekh, nor RP and Invuln buffs from Crypteks/Orikan. They just come as they are. They're not BAD units... but a max-sized 10-man squad is 350 points...
Orikan The Diviner is an absolute MUST pick. Just a few more points than a regular Cryptek, and he provides +1 to RP and gives your infantry a 5++. Definitely worth the points. I see armies also utilizing additional Crypteks to further increase the RP buff.
Nemesor Zahndrekh is... alright. Transient Madness is just ok. "Quell the Rebellion" is the ideal roll. "Avenge the Fallen" is ok if you're about to charge, or are in melee combat. "Solarmills" is just very situational. Certainly not as good as Tactics from 7th where we could pick Target Priority for +1BS by default. Counter Tactics will be nice when fighting certain characters... but the wording is what makes the ability hard. It states "At the beginning of your opponent's turn..." which is where the fault lies. If the opponent's character ALSO has an aura that states "At the beginning of your turn", the rules state they get to choose the order in which the "Beginning of turn" abilities activate. Thus, "Counter Tactics" will only be good against active auras, and not any auras that require something done at the start of the turn (if that is how certain auras work). Overall, Zahndrekh seems to be a better Overlord for an extra 60 points. Probably worth it for the buffs, but definitely not as good as he used to be.
Gauss weapons... I'm neither upset nor happy. I mean, there's no Gauss special rule like we used to have, and some see the fact that everyone now wounds on 6 to be an overall nerf to Gauss, but there's another way of looking at it. That rule only helped against vehicles. Against infantry, it did nothing. The new AP-1 on Flayers and -2 on Blasters helps on everything. Overall that will help us out in most fights rather than just against vehicles. I guess if anything, I think this was a win.
I believe that Doomsday Arks are going to be a new staple.
Anti-tank is going to be rough. This is definitely going to be our new weakness. Mathhammer has shown that just shooting Gauss Flayers takes too many shots. We need specialization. Heavy Destroyers are an immediate thought. However, their unit size is small, so RP won't be particularly useful, and their point cost is high. 203pts for a Doomsday Ark or two is manageable. 14 wounds with a 4+ save and Quantum Shielding are going to make this a good pick.
Tomb Blades are fantastic. It's basically two Immortals squished together. Allow me to explain... Two Immortals with Gauss Blasters is 34 points (17 per). A base Tomb Blade with two Gauss Blasters is 42 points. This means an extra 8 points gets you 14" of movement instead of 5", and +1 toughness. However, they do have a -1 to their save throw for some reason. Another benefit is the unit size. Immortals can have 10-man units. At one wound per model, this is 10 wounds per max unit size. Tomb Blades have a max unit size of 6, and at 2 wounds per model, we're now at 12 wounds per unit. Additionally, Immortals having only 1 wound mean you'll be more likely to roll RP for lost models, meaning your more often in the 1/3 chance of bringing back a wound. TB having 2 wounds keeps them out of RP as often, and generates more wound regeneration per RP roll. Quick math on this: A unit of Immortals and Tomb Blades both suffer 4 wounds. This takes away 4 immortals, and 2 tomb blades. RP rolls occur. Immortals must roll FOUR 5+ to bring 4 wounds back. Tomb Blades must roll TWO 5+ to bring 4 wounds back. Mathmatically, the chance of rolling four 5+ at once is 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/81. The chance of rolling two 5+ at once is 1/9. Now, of course with more rolls you'll have more opportunities as turns come and go, but I'm more inclined to want to raise my whole unit up in one turn before they are focused down.
Deathmarks are interesting. I want to see some play with them before I pass judgement. There is nothing fantastic about their stats. Their sniper has less Strength than a Gauss Blaster, and no -AP. Basically you're really betting on hitting a 6 to cause the mortal wound. Also you're probably only going to use them to target characters. The 24" doesn't make them special either. That's the same range as everything else. They'd be overly deadly at 36". I would have rather seen them split the difference at 30" range. Really the only way I see them as being very viable is putting MWBD on them to make their mortal wound a 5+. Otherwise I see them being focused and taken out rather fast before doing anything serious. Again, I'd like to see the meta before I pass judgement.
Flayed Ones seem pretty dang good. They're just over half the cost of Canoptek Wraiths. They have 4 attacks (compared to 3 on Wraiths), and while they lack the Invuln save that Wraiths have, they do have RP that Wraiths lack. The deep strike landing wherever you want also really helps with placement. A 15-man unit has the potential of 60 attacks. That's crazy.
Canoptek Wraiths seem to be about the same, but I'm curious as to how they will fit in with the new playstyle of the new Necrons. The 12" movement is great with Wraithform. The 4+/3++ makes them very survivable. The 3 attacks, while not as many as from Flayed Ones, come in at 6 strength, AP -1. So they're definitely going to do some damage if they get in range. The cost is what hurts. 38 points base, 47 with Whip Coils... A unit of 6 comes in at 282 points. Doable, but definitely may change the playstyle of your army. No RP hurts as well.
Canoptek Scarabs... What can I say... 6+ save means they're barely survivable, and anything with -AP is instant kill. The 5+ wound bonus is nice... but everything else wounds at range on 6. No RP, and a point cost of 13 per model? I'm probably going to skip them.
Canoptek Spyders are crap. The nerf to Scarab Hive hurts. Not being able to take the Scarabs beyond starting size takes out a large benefit of growing your army beyond starting points, and means you have to dedicate points to Scarabs. Just not competitive in my opinion.
Obelisks and Monoliths are going to be interesting. Early playtests show Obelisks as lacking for their points. Monoliths seem alright, but it's a lot of points to sink. 381 points means 1/5 of a 2000 point army is your Monolith. I'll wait and see how it performs.
Warscythes...man... this one hurt. What used to be the desired tank-killing melee weapon of the Necrons is now the point-saving weapon choice. Not bad, but definitely not as good as it used to be.
Doom Scythe seems to be our answer for Anti-Air. Unless you want to grab a Pylon from FW, the Doom Scythe appears to be the main choice vs. just shooting Gauss from the ground and hoping for the best. Also seems to be a pretty viable heavy support with that Death Ray. Also, that Hard To Hit rule is going to be great for avoiding shots.
I think our biggest hit is the new Keyword mechanic... a lot of our Character buffs specify needing to target SAUTEKH or <DYNASTY> infantry/vehicles. Some units do not have a dynasty keyword, meaning they cannot be buffed, which I believe is really going to hurt them. Hopefully that will get changed in the Codex.
wuestenfux wrote: Eyjio: The lists look not very promising. I'm sure successful Necron lists will look differently.
The phalanx is too vulnerable to play. There are several fast moving units out there which will hit a phalanx very hard.
I agree, but realistically, what can be done? I don't rate our transports at all, and the troop slots need to be filled. I guess I could just min 3x5 Immortals? I think overall we got hit a bit too hard going into 8e.
col_impact wrote: The rules allow you to field a 9 man unit of warriors as long as you pay for the 10th warrior.
So you could run 9 man units + HQ in each Ghost Ark.
Is this for the "Advanced" (matched) rules too or just the basic rules?
If available for all game types, yeah, this opens up a lot of possibility, particularly with the Deceiver Bomb.
It's part of the Matched Play rules, but there is a catch in the Understrength Units rule...
Each unit's datasheet will describe how many models make up that unit. Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available.
That's really cool of them to include that.
WELP, looks like units of 9 Warriors + an HQ all in a Ghost Ark are completely fine... but will it be worth it? (no open topped, so those 9 Warriors aren't really going to be doing much)
It looks like your still missing the fact that you can only have a SINGLE UNIT that's understrenght. For example, if you have six units of Warriors in your army, only one of those units can be less than ten models. The rest must be ten models at minimum.
wuestenfux wrote: Eyjio: The lists look not very promising. I'm sure successful Necron lists will look differently.
The phalanx is too vulnerable to play. There are several fast moving units out there which will hit a phalanx very hard.
I agree, but realistically, what can be done? I don't rate our transports at all, and the troop slots need to be filled. I guess I could just min 3x5 Immortals? I think overall we got hit a bit too hard going into 8e.
Still not sure what's "wrong" with Night Scythes. Extremely fast, pretty hard to kill (yes it lacks QS, but -1 to hit is good and 3+ is as good as we get), and dropping 10 Gauss Immortals in shooting range is never a bad thing. Yes, there's always the chance it just blows up before getting units out, but that's why I'm trying two, unlikely to lose both in a single turn of shooting.
I think Deathmarks are too good to leave out, either as 5 or 10. Replace one Scarab unit with 5 Deathmarks. Their defensive ability to interrupt your opponents 'deepstrike' moves is too useful, especially if he's trying to charge - replace one unit of Scarabs for one unit of 5 Deathmarks which can block a charge lane easily.
You dont need deathmarks. You interrupt deepstrikes with scarab buble (maximum distance= phalanx -18" /enemy cant jump between your units/ - scarabs - 9" enemy deepstriking when needed, thats realy big buble when necessary).
5 or 10 deathmarks has only a litlle impact on horde alfa strike army. And dont forget that you put them 9" from enemy, so you have no chance to block charge lane cos enemy is already 9" inches from you and you have no space to put deathmarks there.
Also if you use Ethereal Interception you need to be 12" away from the unit you follow.
You guys need to read your Deathmarks rules again.
When you Ethereal Intercept, you set up within 12" of the unit you are intercepting, not outside 12".
So yes, you can block charge lanes with them.
Indeed, I stand happily corrected
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still there's the 9" problem, if he already positioned his unit close to his target as possible
It looks like your still missing the fact that you can only have a SINGLE UNIT that's understrenght. For example, if you have six units of Warriors in your army, only one of those units can be less than ten models. The rest must be ten models at minimum.
I cannot find that rule in the BRB in page 242, speaking of Understrenght units. Would you be so kind to point out where I can find it?
Do we think that Whip Coils on Canoptek Wraiths are necessary anymore? The point cost has tripled, and I'm not sure how viable the new ability is. For 9 points (an extra 1/4 of the model cost), it basically allows our Wraiths to swing if they get killed during melee combat on our opponent's turn. Sounds ok, but I don't see many units wanting to charge Wraiths aside from charge armies.
I think Ghost Arks need to be viewed separately from their transport capacity. You can use them for that, but I think they're a solid choice even if they never transport a soul. My thinking...
1. They are only T6 but 14 wounds and have QS and LM, so they're rock hard Also, QS spam is a viable build IMO.
2. They pump out 10-20 dice at short range. Not a tank buster, but not bad at all. Just fine for most infantry and light vehicles. Range synergizes with the infantry it accompanies.
3. A second chance to roll RP (especially at +1) every turn a a huge deal. Between the Cryptek and GA a given unit can shrug off 75% of the dame it takes every turn, plus the sequential turns.
Points-wise, the equivalent shooting from Warriors costs 120 points. So the GA pays 50 pts for 4 more wounds and the re-roll on the RP for warriors (to start). If a Res Orb is 35, the Warrior-only version is at least a 20-30pt ability since its every turn, not once per battle. I think the GA is close to points efficient right there and we haven't even priced out QS or the Fly rule (or transport capacity)..
All that to say that I think the GA is a solid choice.
wuestenfux wrote: Eyjio: The lists look not very promising. I'm sure successful Necron lists will look differently.
The phalanx is too vulnerable to play. There are several fast moving units out there which will hit a phalanx very hard.
I agree, but realistically, what can be done? I don't rate our transports at all, and the troop slots need to be filled. I guess I could just min 3x5 Immortals? I think overall we got hit a bit too hard going into 8e.
We need to wait and see.
It seems that all armies got nerfed a bit, at least if you look at the pt costs.
Its important to have an army that can battle the opponent at all threat ranges. A phalanx will not really work as it stands. It can be hit hard and you can do not much about it.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Do we think that Whip Coils on Canoptek Wraiths are necessary anymore? The point cost has tripled, and I'm not sure how viable the new ability is. For 9 points (an extra 1/4 of the model cost), it basically allows our Wraiths to swing if they get killed during melee combat on our opponent's turn. Sounds ok, but I don't see many units wanting to charge Wraiths aside from charge armies.
I really don't see the point of them - especially for such an excessive cost. Why not just put those points towards another Wraith and have more attacks and more wounds?
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Do we think that Whip Coils on Canoptek Wraiths are necessary anymore? The point cost has tripled, and I'm not sure how viable the new ability is. For 9 points (an extra 1/4 of the model cost), it basically allows our Wraiths to swing if they get killed during melee combat on our opponent's turn. Sounds ok, but I don't see many units wanting to charge Wraiths aside from charge armies.
All of that type of ability, whip coils, lash whips, that used to be pretty fantastic for initiative boosting are now pretty irrelevant, yes. If you're an assault unit you're going for the charge and if you don't something has gone wrong, so whilst "get to attack if dead" is a nice enough power if you get it passively, it's nowhere near worth buying as an upgrade. Glad I only modeled my Wraiths with one coil each, trimmed to be partially retracted for easier transport. Easier to ignore.
On a more negative note I have 10 whip Metamorphs in my genecult who are now terrible.
The only wraith upgrade I might consider is Transdimensional Beamers.
What do we conclude about embarked HQs with auras? Can I put Orikan in a Ghost Ark (he wasn't going to be shooting anyway) and let everyone in 6" from my Ark benefit from his "Master Technomancer"? If so, I've found a great use for a single GA.
If not, damn GAs are really hard to field nowadays.
Fenris-77 wrote: I think Ghost Arks need to be viewed separately from their transport capacity. You can use them for that, but I think they're a solid choice even if they never transport a soul. My thinking...
1. They are only T6 but 14 wounds and have QS and LM, so they're rock hard Also, QS spam is a viable build IMO.
2. They pump out 10-20 dice at short range. Not a tank buster, but not bad at all. Just fine for most infantry and light vehicles. Range synergizes with the infantry it accompanies.
3. A second chance to roll RP (especially at +1) every turn a a huge deal. Between the Cryptek and GA a given unit can shrug off 75% of the dame it takes every turn, plus the sequential turns.
Points-wise, the equivalent shooting from Warriors costs 120 points. So the GA pays 50 pts for 4 more wounds and the re-roll on the RP for warriors (to start). If a Res Orb is 35, the Warrior-only version is at least a 20-30pt ability since its every turn, not once per battle. I think the GA is close to points efficient right there and we haven't even priced out QS or the Fly rule (or transport capacity)..
All that to say that I think the GA is a solid choice.
I missed that the GA had QS. That puts it as a bit more viable. Honestly, I think the codex needs to make it Open Top. That's the only reason anyone would take it as transport. The reduction in unit size is too much otherwise. I agree that if anything it should be used as a RP-casting support vehicle rather than a transport. My concern is placement. Ideally you'd keep it behind your Warriors, and to keep the GA in rapid-fire range, you'd have to keep your Warriors at about 9" from enemy. Also the GA could explode. If I were to take a GA, I'd probably keep it behind two units of 20 Warriors, giving extra shots and running extra RP. Then if one unit got reduced to ~3 models or so and RP didn't go so well, I'd embark the unit and drive it away out of range for unit repairs. I don't know. It's 170 points though... for 33 more points you can have a Doomsday Ark with the same wounds, LM, and QS, but with a lot more firepower. Basically for 33 points, you drop the RP bonus, and gain a doomsday cannon, which satisfies some anti-tank.
Is there any reason to use Rod of the Covenant over the Voidblades? You get an additional attack because Pistol, but slightly worse shooting (but you didn't take Praetorians for their dank shooting, did you?) all for the same Strength/AP value in melee.
I still am not 100% solid on the new melee rules regarding extra attacks with pistols tho.
necr0n wrote: What do we conclude about embarked HQs with auras? Can I put Orikan in a Ghost Ark (he wasn't going to be shooting anyway) and let everyone in 6" from my Ark benefit from his "Master Technomancer"? If so, I've found a great use for a single GA.
If not, damn GAs are really hard to field nowadays.
Nope found out that in the rules it states that embarked characters cannot use their abilities to affect other units outside of the transport, and in reverse, characters on the field cannot use their abilities to affect embarked units.
EDIT: Actual text from rulebook: "Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked." and the sentence immediately preceding it states that units embarked in a transport "be affected in any way whilst embarked".
If I understood correctly, they get to shoot the nearest enemy with pistols even if they are in CC. The nearest enemy unit doesn't have to be the one they are in CC with
torblind wrote: If I understood correctly, they get to shoot the nearest enemy with pistols even if they are in CC. The nearest enemy unit doesn't have to be the one they are in CC with
Except the enemy unit they're in close combat with will always be the nearest enemy unit.
necr0n wrote: What do we conclude about embarked HQs with auras? Can I put Orikan in a Ghost Ark (he wasn't going to be shooting anyway) and let everyone in 6" from my Ark benefit from his "Master Technomancer"? If so, I've found a great use for a single GA.
If not, damn GAs are really hard to field nowadays.
No, I'm sure the rules explicitly stated that models abord transports are off the field unless otherwise specified. So no shooting, and no buffs. GA are now just repair boats. I wouldn't invest heavily in them. I said before that you should only have 1 per 2-4 units of warriors, and I stick with it. Whilst my initial reasoning was false (I thought the repair buff affected all warriors within range), the general point that its not cost effective to have multiple arks stands, as they are mediocre transports, they don't have amazing offensive potential, and they aren't that durable either. Their best role is really as a support unit, to be combined with the Crytek repair buff.
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torblind wrote: If I understood correctly, they get to shoot the nearest enemy with pistols even if they are in CC. The nearest enemy unit doesn't have to be the one they are in CC with
Except it has to be an enemy unit 1" away from the firing unit, which will usually be the ones they are locked in combat with, iirc.
Ideally we'd put the two units of Warriors and Immortals in front of Orikan and Zahndrekh to get buffed. Wraiths charge to take shots and hopefully take out front line. Tomb Blades for quick objective and strategic strikes. Doomsday Ark and Triarch Stalker in back for heavy support and anti-tank. Heavy Destroyers roaming edges and shooting Heavy Gauss Cannon at full 36" range.
Pistols are more like half a close combat attack as you still shoot them in the shooting phase on your own turn, while close combat attacks happen every fight phase, yours and your opponent's.
torblind wrote: If I understood correctly, they get to shoot the nearest enemy with pistols even if they are in CC. The nearest enemy unit doesn't have to be the one they are in CC with
Except the enemy unit they're in close combat with will always be the nearest enemy unit.
Remember, each model with a pistol shoots at its nearest enemy unit. Even after pile in this may not be the unit its unit is in CC with.
Furthermore, each model makes its pile in 3" towards its nearest enemy model. The furthest away model in a unit in CC may very well have to pile in towards another unit than the one its unit is in CC with, away from its onw units ongoing cc, which it may not be able to do and still stay in coherency, thus it will remain where it is, unable to pile in, but can still shoot at this other unit. It was un-situational enough to happen in the very first batrep at MWG from 8th edition.
The Melee Weapons list includes the 0 point options? For example, can my OL be equipped with Flayer Claws or anything like that for 0 points? The table I'm seeing that's named "Melee Weapons" includes all kinds of whacky choices, so I don't really know.
necr0n wrote: The Melee Weapons list includes the 0 point options? For example, can my OL be equipped with Flayer Claws or anything like that for 0 points? The table I'm seeing that's named "Melee Weapons" includes all kinds of whacky choices, so I don't really know.
No. See the page at the start of the Necron Army List for what items are available.
necr0n wrote: The Melee Weapons list includes the 0 point options? For example, can my OL be equipped with Flayer Claws or anything like that for 0 points? The table I'm seeing that's named "Melee Weapons" includes all kinds of whacky choices, so I don't really know.
No. There's a list of weapons the overlord can take on the first page, along with the necron army special rules.
Necron HQs can take three weapons - Warsyche, voidblade and hyperphase sword.
necr0n wrote: The Melee Weapons list includes the 0 point options? For example, can my OL be equipped with Flayer Claws or anything like that for 0 points? The table I'm seeing that's named "Melee Weapons" includes all kinds of whacky choices, so I don't really know.
To see what wargear an Overlord can take, you need to read what it says under the Overlord entry. Flayer claws most definitely won't be listed there
Because GW said so. To be serious, that would be a nice option. Necrons actually lost a lot of options in the index; you can't give crypteks gear anymore, and only destroyer lords can have phylacteries, and there's no veil of darkness or nightmare shrouds, which have been around since 3rd ed . At least all of our HQs get a phase shifter for free.
JNAProductions wrote: That's an issue with Necrons. They're as old or older than the Eldar, as advanced, and yet have MAYBE three options per unit. Usually less.
To be fair, that was because most of them were meant to be little more than automatons - they didn't have the minds for customisation.
The real issue is that the main area of customisation in our army is supposed to be the HQ section, yet that has been stripped away also, leaving us with basically nothing.
So after a lot of searching, doodling, drafting lists and searching combos and following the Tactics Thread closely as there were a lot of good ideas I've come up with the following idea. Turn 1-2 combos like Deciever/Monolith/Lychguard etc are not worth it, because they are not 100% reliable, you might not have a good target to charge and bad dice might leave you stranded in the middle of the opponent army with no damage done. Generally, it's just too many things that can go wrong. Other combos that people mentioned included far too many points spent in support units and HQ/auras. For this list, even though I've used support characters and auras myself, I focused more on raw numbers and dakka. My list is a combination of 3 parts:
The Destroyer Cult: (Orikan, Destroyer Lord and the 2 Destroyer units)
The reason I chose to go with 5man Destroyer units, is so that I can benefit from RP as much as possible and make it hard for anyone to wipe any of those squads completely. For that, I also rely on Orikan's Invu saves and improved RP+ Res Orb. I don't believe there's absolutely any point of going 2-3 destroyer man squads as they will be wiped to any decent enemy and not allow for RP. Especially mixing 1 or 2 HDs in Destroyer squads now is perfect, because you can allocate wounds on normal D's and never have your Heavy in danger. All this works so much better compared to last edition because of being able to shoot anywhere with any model and not forcing all 5 to shoot the same target. There's no real drawback to stacking your destroyers together this edition.
So I've got 8 Gauss cannons and 2 H.Gauss cannons + their rerolls and the D.lord buff rerolls as "Heavy shooting" and rely on their toughness + orikan buffs to help them survive (+ good movement). Plus, Orikan and D.Lord are kinda scary in CC, so they're not entirely doomed if things get physical.
The Silver Tide: (3 blobs of warriors, Szeras and Immortals squad)
A lot of people are going to question why I chose to leave my silver tide without a cryptek with an Invulnerable save. Well, the answer is I don't want to invest in 2 HQ's, as I really want to go for high numbers. For that big numbers, I feel Szeras' buffs + RP benefit is too good to not take and I can't see anything else being more beneficial. I don't think the Invulnerable save will be of much use anyway as it only matters when people shoot warriors with anything better than AP -1, which honestly, probably won't be the case too often and Immortals with AP -2. At first, I really liked the invulnerable on troops, but at second thought, it's not necesairy. The only thing I kinda miss from this is MWBD for the Tesla Immortals, but I'd have to include Anrakyr as a support to the tide and I think Szeras fills that role better overall.
The cheese protection: (3x3 of scarabs)
Scarabs are there to help me bump assault units or stop Turn 1 charges/deepstrikes. My list, being so warrior heavy, is really vulnerable to getting assaulted so I feel this extra protection is really needed. In games where such protection is not needed, they can distract/assault random staff like (hopefully) big vehicles. Honestly, for 117 points total and an extra CP it looks legit.
JNAProductions wrote: That's an issue with Necrons. They're as old or older than the Eldar, as advanced, and yet have MAYBE three options per unit. Usually less.
To be fair, that was because most of them were meant to be little more than automatons - they didn't have the minds for customisation.
The real issue is that the main area of customisation in our army is supposed to be the HQ section, yet that has been stripped away also, leaving us with basically nothing.
Warriors, sure.
Immortals... I guess.
But Praetorians? Lychguard? Stalkers? Why can't I customize them with more than two choices? (Okay, Stalker does have, what? 3 guns?)
I like Heavy Destroyers a lot, they seem to be the way to put out some serious damage,
Gauss is decent, but most of our vehicles are very mediocre for the points. Not having Quantum Shielding on most vehicles is sad.
Something that really hurt was mortal wounds, not having ways to really shrug them off. QS is pretty random in itself.
I have a question, which I assume the answer is no at the moment.
Do our CCB's get our Overlords 4++ Phase Shifter?
Because without it, they pretty much suck really bad. 3 attacks, hitting on 2s wounding most things on 3s, they might kill 3 models a turn if we're lucky but they just eat it to anything with more damage output and a slight rend.
Eyjio wrote: No, CCBs don't get the phase shifter.
Ah that's right, they don't. Yeah, the CCB is kind of mediocre. No idea why it doesn't have a shifter either. What, did the overlord riding it left it at home?
JNAProductions wrote: That's an issue with Necrons. They're as old or older than the Eldar, as advanced, and yet have MAYBE three options per unit. Usually less.
To be fair, that was because most of them were meant to be little more than automatons - they didn't have the minds for customisation.
The real issue is that the main area of customisation in our army is supposed to be the HQ section, yet that has been stripped away also, leaving us with basically nothing.
Indeed. Historically, necrons have always been lacking of options in terms of their rank and file compared to most factions, but even in 3rd ed you can kit out your lord however you liked. That was the armies flavor / quirk 8th ed changes that, in that even the HQ choices are sorely lacking in options, even less than in 3rd ed, which permitted the lord (overlords did not exist in 3rd, just lords and destroyer lords) to take a better weapon and have a choice of something like 7 wargear. In eighth you have 3 weapon options, two of which are the same, and 1 piece of wargear. 2 if it's a destroyer lord.
I like your list for the most part... but I'm not really feeling Orikan traveling around with the Destroyers. He's going to slow them down. I'd just keep the Destroyer Lord with the Destroyers, put Orikan with your Infantry, and then possibly drop Szeras for an Overlord so you can cast MWBD on whatever unit you need. I find Szeras' ability to be too sporadic and I"m not fond of it. Plus after turn 3 it's useless.
I like your list for the most part... but I'm not really feeling Orikan traveling around with the Destroyers. He's going to slow them down. I'd just keep the Destroyer Lord with the Destroyers, put Orikan with your Infantry, and then possibly drop Szeras for an Overlord so you can cast MWBD on whatever unit you need. I find Szeras' ability to be too sporadic and I"m not fond of it. Plus after turn 3 it's useless.
One thing to consider he's a weaker lascannon shot, but still a shot.
I played a game with the demo against nids, it took 12 wounds of swarmlord over two turns (I killed his tyrant guard with a huge amount of telsa) and his venomthropes pretty much couldnt keep up with him even with swarmlords advance.
I agree, his table is too sporadic but it is definitely better now than before. Also believe it affects immortals which is sweet.
I like your list for the most part... but I'm not really feeling Orikan traveling around with the Destroyers. He's going to slow them down. I'd just keep the Destroyer Lord with the Destroyers, put Orikan with your Infantry, and then possibly drop Szeras for an Overlord so you can cast MWBD on whatever unit you need. I find Szeras' ability to be too sporadic and I"m not fond of it. Plus after turn 3 it's useless.
Orikan does not have a shooting weapon. Therefore, I should have no problem "Advancing" him each turn to keep up with the Destroyers. ( It's really flexible/easy to just have 1 model within the aura and conga the rest if I really wanna move)
The problem with leaving Orikan away from Destroyers is they are left without an Invulnerable save (and I'm 90% sure any low AP weapons will be targetted on my destroyers) as well as the RP buff. Destroyers are very, very vulnerable and I think the Invu+RP buff are a must (that's why I also went for the orb). They're the biggest threat in my list and I expect they will also be the biggest target.
As for Szeras' abilities, I have 4 units. So 4 turns. But, honestly, if he buffs even three 17man warrior squads and gives out the RP buff and also shoots the weapon, he's really made his points back. I mean compare him to what a cryptek would do in 3 turns. He's going to be buffing 60 models with extra permanent stats like +1 BS or +1 T.
The screens:
4x Canoptek Scarabs
3x Canoptek Scarabs
The Silver buffers:
Necron Lord - Warscythe
Cryptek - Staff of Light
11x Necron Warrior
5x Necron Immortal - Tesla Carbine
5x Necron Immortal - Tesla Carbine
The C'tan:
C'tan shard of the Deceiver
C'tan shard of the Nightbringer
Transcendant C'tan
Transcendant C'tan
Plan is simple: Bubble Wrap C'tan, slowly march towards enemy dishing out meteor strikes after meteor strikes. Gaze of Death too. Maybe have one C'tan with Time's arrow to try and snipe enemy characters. When close enough. Charge in with the C'tan, let them blow up.
You'll lose, but at least you'll die laughing as you kill their heroes and safetly reanimate in your nearest Tombworld.
Dang, I was kind of messing around with this but I think it might be kinda fun?
Vanguard Detachment
DLord SoL
Deceiver
Nightbringer
Wraiths x5
Wraiths x5
Wraiths x5
Destroyer x2, Heavy
Destroyer x2, Heavy
Destroyer x2, Heavy
Heavy Destroyer x3
1995/2000
Have to kill 15 Wraiths before you can target the C'tan, and meanwhile the Destroyers will be doing damage in the background. 6 Heavies might be overkill, could trade 3 of them out for Warriors.
Requizen wrote: Dang, I was kind of messing around with this but I think it might be kinda fun?
Vanguard Detachment
DLord SoL
Deceiver
Nightbringer
Wraiths x5
Wraiths x5
Wraiths x5
Destroyer x2, Heavy
Destroyer x2, Heavy
Destroyer x2, Heavy
Heavy Destroyer x3
1995/2000
Have to kill 15 Wraiths before you can target the C'tan, and meanwhile the Destroyers will be doing damage in the background. 6 Heavies might be overkill, could trade 3 of them out for Warriors.
If you're going for fun list. Sure. But, otherwise, noone would shoot neither your Wraiths or the ctan. You have 4 very vulnerable 3man Destroyer units. Alpha-strike, turn 1-2 they'll be gone for sure. The problem is you have no support for them and nothing else that requires shooting. Also, after they're dead, you're left with 2 Ctan and 15 wraiths and they're not exactly the epitome of deadliness.
I'm having trouble working out how to determine the damage inflicted by destroyers. Do I roll the damage D3 for every unsaved wound? Or do I just roll one die and thats the damage for all of the wounds?
In the rule book it said the damage the weapon inflicts, so I'm assuming that's the latter, but that does seem pretty powerful.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'm having trouble working out how to determine the damage inflicted by destroyers. Do I roll the damage D3 for every unsaved wound? Or do I just roll one die and thats the damage for all of the wounds?
In the rule book it said the damage the weapon inflicts, so I'm assuming that's the latter, but that does seem pretty powerful.
I've understood it to mean that you roll one damage die, and each wound causes that same damage. Perhaps someone else can chime in though.
Ideally we'd put the two units of Warriors and Immortals in front of Orikan and Zahndrekh to get buffed. Wraiths charge to take shots and hopefully take out front line. Tomb Blades for quick objective and strategic strikes. Doomsday Ark and Triarch Stalker in back for heavy support and anti-tank. Heavy Destroyers roaming edges and shooting Heavy Gauss Cannon at full 36" range.
HQ
Nemesor Zahndrekh [180 pts]
Orikan The Diviner [143 pts]
Vargard Obyron [151 pts]
TROOPS
Warriors x20 [240 pts]
Warriors x20 [240 pts]
Immortals x10 (Tesla) [170 pts]
ELITES
Deathmarks x5 [100 pts]
Triarch Stalker (Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon) [181 pts]
TRANSPORT
Ghost Ark [170 pts]
HEAVY SUPPORT
Doomsday Ark [203 pts]
Doomsday Ark [203 pts]
TOTAL POINTS: 1981
Is my preferred spin on a Zandrekh army. I think not taking Vargard Obyron with him is a waste, Ghostwalk Mantle is too good. Not really a fan of splitting Heavy D and Doomsday either, either two Doomsday and Stalker or no QS vehicles at all for me, like this:
Orikan imbedded in a blob of warriors is pretty solid, at one point I reanimated 10 of my 15 dead warriors. I am debating throwing in some Lychguard + Warscythe for the next game for more smashy smashy. New retreat rules make warriors an effective front line unit, create a stagger line to prevent charges and fall back at the start of your turn. To be fair I was playing an aggressive Eldar player, I do not know how this will shape up against a shooty army.
Destroyers proved to be very strong as well. The D3 damage is something I had to look up 2-3 times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Next game we are going towards 1500 points and I am thinking of bringing 5-6 of them just to take advantage of reanimate.
Tomb blades didn't do much but cap objectives, though I think a lot of that was my weapon choice.
Anni barge got popped very early so i didn't get much chance to playtest it.
Doomsday ark was solid, I ignored the heavy fire mode mostly and just drove him around the board firing all my weapons. No firing arcs was great, I would broadside a unit and just melt them. Poor guy had like 3 wounds left when the game was over, but took out something like 500 points solo.
One major issue we ran into: Everything is measured from the base per the new rules, but the doomsday ark is massive compared to the base. Does this mean that tall units can't engage it in combat if they can't get within 1" of the base physically?? We did "Wobbly model" rules but it was annoying because a tall vehicle can't physically get within 1" of the base of the Ark, so it isn't really wobbly it is impossible. Frustrating to have to proxy unit locations that much.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'm having trouble working out how to determine the damage inflicted by destroyers. Do I roll the damage D3 for every unsaved wound? Or do I just roll one die and thats the damage for all of the wounds?
In the rule book it said the damage the weapon inflicts, so I'm assuming that's the latter, but that does seem pretty powerful.
I've understood it to mean that you roll one damage die, and each wound causes that same damage. Perhaps someone else can chime in though.
Yeah, but how would that work for multiple models with the same weapon? Like, does each destroyer roll a D3 before firing?
I've just been measuring to the Ark's hull. I know it says to base, but honestly it's just a hassle and sometimes I don't even put a base on the thing since it's flat enough on the bottom.
I can't really imagine myself using the Doomsday Ark's low power mode that much, remember that since it's heavy you have to take the -1 to hit while moving it. d3 shots hitting on 4+ isn't great.
Here's my problem with Destroyer Wing - it's really not efficient for shooting MEQs, or really any 1W models. Necrons have better weapons for those jobs. The Destroyers great at T4/5 multiwound stuff, and ok for T7/8 stuff. That last category is probably better handled by bigger guns though. The Doomsday Cannon is about 20% more efficient against T7/8 stuff. Heck, even the Particle Shredder on a Stalker is a little better against those T7 3+ types.
I wonder if a stars and scrubs approach (infantry and Doomsday Arcs for example) might not be more bang for the buck, at least in the shooting phase.
Here's my current goal. Use Deciever and Command rerolls to move immortals and OL on a 2 or include the destroyers on a 3 and wrap them in flayed ones on the first move. March up the board with the warriors and Orikan with the ark for support. Use the wraiths to harrass flanks or enter melee with unprotected characters. Lots of flexibility I hope.
Edit: I'm a very new player with just the start collecting so any advice is very welcome
Fenris-77 wrote: Here's my problem with Destroyer Wing - it's really not efficient for shooting MEQs, or really any 1W models. Necrons have better weapons for those jobs. The Destroyers great at T4/5 multiwound stuff, and ok for T7/8 stuff. That last category is probably better handled by bigger guns though. The Doomsday Cannon is about 20% more efficient against T7/8 stuff. Heck, even the Particle Shredder on a Stalker is a little better against those T7 3+ types.
I wonder if a stars and scrubs approach (infantry and Doomsday Arcs for example) might not be more bang for the buck, at least in the shooting phase.
Depends. I personally think the T4/T5 Multiwound area is going to become extremely prevalent. That's bikes, that's Cavalry, that's elite infantry. The sort of thing Stars are made out of. The more you see, for instance, Ravenwing, Crisis Suits, Tyranid Warriors, TWC, Nobz, Bloodcrushers, Terminators, or Wraithguard, the more useful Destroyers will be. And I'm betting my left shoe that most if not all of those will be pretty common.
If, though, the game goes towards W1 models in gunlines, or Monster spam, then they're still good but I agree we have better options. I just really predict that we'll see a good number of those tough elite type things, and Destroyers will be good to counter them.
My thinking is the scarabs and wraiths bubble wrap the battalion if DS is a concern. If not, they hoof it up the field with the destroyer lord to wreck some face, grab objectives and provide screening while my troops follow up behind them. Any glaring ommissions or inclusions you guys can think of?
It can take a Gauss Cannon at least, so it does at least provide some additional D3 damage, and with those 8 shots it has a good chance of proccing the tesla effect. But yeah, its not great. There are better options out there.
Fenris-77 wrote: Here's my problem with Destroyer Wing - it's really not efficient for shooting MEQs, or really any 1W models. Necrons have better weapons for those jobs. The Destroyers great at T4/5 multiwound stuff, and ok for T7/8 stuff. That last category is probably better handled by bigger guns though. The Doomsday Cannon is about 20% more efficient against T7/8 stuff. Heck, even the Particle Shredder on a Stalker is a little better against those T7 3+ types.
I wonder if a stars and scrubs approach (infantry and Doomsday Arcs for example) might not be more bang for the buck, at least in the shooting phase.
Depends. I personally think the T4/T5 Multiwound area is going to become extremely prevalent. That's bikes, that's Cavalry, that's elite infantry. The sort of thing Stars are made out of. The more you see, for instance, Ravenwing, Crisis Suits, Tyranid Warriors, TWC, Nobz, Bloodcrushers, Terminators, or Wraithguard, the more useful Destroyers will be. And I'm betting my left shoe that most if not all of those will be pretty common.
If, though, the game goes towards W1 models in gunlines, or Monster spam, then they're still good but I agree we have better options. I just really predict that we'll see a good number of those tough elite type things, and Destroyers will be good to counter them.
To be fair, even with those units it's only the high save ones (2+ and 3+) that really beg for Destroyers, especially 2+ saves. My point was that the 2/3+ subset of mutliwound models is low enough that I don't think I need to invest in niche weaponry to kill them. The other big guns can handle that shizz. Heavy destroyers are a different kettle of fish of course, that S9 Ap -4 D d6 is a great gun and for an extra 12pts a pop I'd take that upgrade every time. It's the normal Destroyer I'm having at least some conceptual difficulties with. Just for my own edification I'm going to list off points per 'big gun' out of the Necron list (and I'm just looking at cost per shot for the moment)
Destroyers - 32,5 points per gauss cannon shot.
Stalker - 90.5 points per Heavy Gauss Cannon shot / or 85.5 points per Heat Ray Shot
Heavy Destroyer - 75 points per HGC shot
Doomsday Ark - 101.5 pts per Doomsday Cannon Shot (plus two gauss flayer arrays)
Doomscythe - 110 points per Death Ray shot (plus two Tesla destructors)
So, what we see, on just a cost per shot basis, is that you get one big gun shot for approximately every three gauss cannon shots (either for about 100 points), except for heavy Destroyers where its more like 2:1. Lets readjust the gun stats to match at 100pts:
Gauss Cannon Range 24" Hvy 3 S5 AP -3 D d3
Stalker Hvy Gauss Cannon Range 36" S9 Ap -4 D d6 Heat Ray Range 24" Hvy 1 S8 Ap -4 D d6 (melta)
Doomsday Cannon Range 72" Hvy 1/2 S10 Ap -5 D d6 (/2 is against squads numbering 10+) [plus one gauss flayer array]
Death Ray Range 24" Hvy 1 S10 Ap -4 D d6 [plus one Tesla destructor]
Ball-parking the HGC at 75 pts puts it a 1.3 shots per three Guass shots. (i'm too lazy to do that math)
I'm obviously not addressing mobility or survivability in the above, nor the impact of the potential +1 Th synergy from the Lord. That second point obviously doesn't apply to Heavy Destroyers as they share the benefit (at a cost of at least 142) and the other units could have a similar if far more limited form of that buff from a Stalker (at a minimum cost of 158). Mobility and survivability are certainly subjects that need to be addressed (although you'll probably be happy to know not in this post )
There's not really an argument here, I just wanted to look at the numbers in a different way. Personally, I think the Doomsday Arc is at least as survivable as the Destroyers, if not more so, and the Doomsday Cannon is way better against top tier hard targets (Land Raiders and the like) plus you get the Gauss Flayers for flensing the gribblies.. At the very least I'm finding myself pushed away from the basic Destroyer as a core component of my list. Units of Heavy Destroyers with a lord are obviously awesome, if expensive
I'd like to share what I've learned so far. After some experience, I'm really happy with Warriors, Ghost Arks, and Destroyers. Maxing out on your squads with RP seems very good since killing 20 Warriors or 6 Destroyers isn't a cake walk. I also believe that having Command Points to automatically pass Morale checks is huge for when an opponent goes all in on wiping out a squad only to leave a few survivors. If you're set up for maximizing RP rolls, then even being reduced to a single Warrior is not a big deal if your support units are still alive. Keeping Destroyers close to a Res Orb and Orikan is also great for this reason. They don't have a repair ship, but getting multiple Destroyers back in a turn with help from those two HQs is huge. I came into 8th believing that having a lot of negative AP and weapons with multiple damage shots would be critical to winning. So far that's been the case in my experience, and fortunately our horde of basic guns have negative AP while our Destroyers can bite chunks out of multi-wound models really well.
Here's an example list of what I really like in this edition:
Spoiler:
Destroyer Lord
Warscythe
Resurrection Orb
Orikan
20 Warriors
Ghost Ark
20 Warriors
Ghost Ark
5 Immortals
(keep waffling on Tesla or Gauss)
5 Destroyers
1 Heavy Destroyer
5 Destroyers
1 Heavy Destroyer
1998 Points / 6 Command Points
Two Ghost Arks behind 2 blobs of 20 Warriors and Orikan is a very tough nut to crack. An opponent will hate out a single Ghost Ark in this kind of list, so having a second definitely helps ensure getting at least one extra round of RP rolls for a Warrior squad if they decide to target them (but having 2 extra is absurd when combined with Orikan). Orikan and the Destroyer Lord holding a Resurrection Orb also give the Warriors and Destroyers extra survivability.
TL;DR
Orikan is probably the best HQ for us.
RP is great.
Gauss gets it done.
Destroyers are still great.
Max out RP units.
Save command points for the Morale phase if possible.
Marshal_Gus wrote: I'd like to share what I've learned so far. After some experience, I'm really happy with Warriors, Ghost Arks, and Destroyers. Maxing out on your squads with RP seems very good since killing 20 Warriors or 6 Destroyers isn't a cake walk. I also believe that having Command Points to automatically pass Morale checks is huge for when an opponent goes all in on wiping out a squad only to leave a few survivors. If you're set up for maximizing RP rolls, then even being reduced to a single Warrior is not a big deal if your support units are still alive. Keeping Destroyers close to a Res Orb and Orikan is also great for this reason. They don't have a repair ship, but getting multiple Destroyers back in a turn with help from those two HQs is huge. I came into 8th believing that having a lot of negative AP and weapons with multiple damage shots would be critical to winning. So far that's been the case in my experience, and fortunately our horde of basic guns have negative AP while our Destroyers can bite chunks out of multi-wound models really well.
Here's an example list of what I really like in this edition:
Spoiler:
Destroyer Lord
Warscythe
Resurrection Orb
Orikan
20 Warriors
Ghost Ark
20 Warriors
Ghost Ark
5 Immortals
(keep waffling on Tesla or Gauss)
5 Destroyers
1 Heavy Destroyer
5 Destroyers
1 Heavy Destroyer
1998 Points / 6 Command Points
Two Ghost Arks behind 2 blobs of 20 Warriors and Orikan is a very tough nut to crack. An opponent will hate out a single Ghost Ark in this kind of list, so having a second definitely helps ensure getting at least one extra round of RP rolls for a Warrior squad if they decide to target them (but having 2 extra is absurd when combined with Orikan). Orikan and the Destroyer Lord holding a Resurrection Orb also give the Warriors and Destroyers extra survivability.
TL;DR
Orikan is probably the best HQ for us.
RP is great.
Gauss gets it done.
Destroyers are still great.
Max out RP units.
Save command points for the Morale phase if possible.
I think you've nailed a really strong streamlined list. It's got the essentials from the HQ slot but not bloated which frees up the points for more destroyers.
This may have been previously explained but, how does reanimation protocols work with multi wound units? Do they come back with one wound or full wounds or something else entirely?
Aten wrote: This may have been previously explained but, how does reanimation protocols work with multi wound units? Do they come back with one wound or full wounds or something else entirely?
Full wounds. Makes Lychguard, Praets, and Destroyers desirable in reasonable squad sizes, but you rarely see them maxed out. Occasionally super good when you get back 9 wounds of Destroyers over a game.
necr0n wrote: Orikan andD.Lord are kinda scary in CC, so they're not entirely doomed if things get physical.
Is he, though?
I'm just not seeing it.
Is there actually something special that makes him good in combat, or are people still looking at him with previous edition tinted glasses?
necr0n wrote: Orikan andD.Lord are kinda scary in CC, so they're not entirely doomed if things get physical.
Is he, though?
I'm just not seeing it.
Is there actually something special that makes him good in combat, or are people still looking at him with previous edition tinted glasses?
He wasn't even that good last edition since he had a lower WS than Overlords as well, so was often hitting on 4+ against lots of things while Overlords were 3+. He was used because he had his rerolls and better durability with T6.
Now, he has +1W, +1T, +1A, rerolls 1s to hit, moves faster. He can also take a Phylactery, which Overlords can't. On the other hand, he doesn't have MWBD.
As a singular fighty unit, he's potentially better. T6 means he's rarely being wounded on 2+, and even though he's hitting on 3+, rerolling 1s and having an extra attack means he's actually better overall. The Overlord is better for the army, since it buffs dudes around it, so if you think the DLord will get in, he'll probably be better, but if you think you want someone to just hang back and support/bodyguard the rest of your army, the Overlord is better. Both are reasonable.
The DLord can be a decent choice to tag along with a C'tan alongside Wraiths for a ministar too since they're both fast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, double DLord + Wraiths is only slightly more than a C'Tan. Lacks a shooting attack unless you go Staff over Warscythe, but more attacks (slightly worse, but still good), better armor (2+ in cover), faster, more wounds. Characters are better than 7th, though they don't buff the Wraiths (though Wraiths are better as well). Interesting.
Not sure if its been spotted already, but techomancer and master technomancer only affect models within 3", not entire units. Probably mean every 20 man warrior blob will need its own cryptek, which will mean orikan is fine for a mono blob but anything after that its looking like multiple crypteks.
So I figure Id have a new style death star. GA in the center (broadside), with immortals out front, warriors on the flanks with a cryptek in each (trying to give as much of the 5++ to the immortals. Just behind the immortals is the C'tan who is un-targetable due to his character rule, and behind him is the O/Lord who is MWBD'ing the immortals each turn to give them the 2+ to hit and proc tesla on 5's. The stalker shoots at whatever it needs to to give the re-rolls of 1, so it can choose small targets to buff the warrior/immortal shooting or big stuff for the backline DA. Because it is behind the broadside GA on a flyers stand, it should get cover from it . The deathmarks stay in reserve, and deep strike in to take out any snipers the other team has, so the characters stay alive as long as possible (their buffs are crucial for this to last).
'Models from a friendly unit within 3"' because the models you're effecting are technically off the table entirely as casualties. The cryptek literally can't be within 3" of them, just the unit they were attached to.
More characters, and more battalions guys. Re-listening to Reese and Frankie's Q&A... any time you have three elite, fast attack, or heavy support, (and they can't go all in to get the next battalion up) they take an extra HQ and slot those in a separate detachment. That way they get an extra command point
'Friendly unit within 3"' would suggest it means the unit of models, not just the individual models within his radius (otherwise it wouldn't bother with the word "unit" and would just say "models" only)
skoffs wrote:'Friendly unit within 3"' would suggest it means the unit of models, not just the individual models within his radius (otherwise it wouldn't bother with the word "unit" and would just say "models" only)
Actinium wrote:'Models from a friendly unit within 3"' because the models you're effecting are technically off the table entirely as casualties. The cryptek literally can't be within 3" of them, just the unit they were attached to.
Yea, upon re-reading it I'm comfortable with it affecting the units. Just when they reworded the VSG to only affect the models it was similar to how technomancer is worded, however this has a different interaction considering it works on models not on the board.
Anpu-adom wrote:More characters, and more battalions guys. Re-listening to Reese and Frankie's Q&A... any time you have three elite, fast attack, or heavy support, (and they can't go all in to get the next battalion up) they take an extra HQ and slot those in a separate detachment. That way they get an extra command point
Yep thats why I added in a Vanguard detachment. Meant I could split my DM into 2x5 squads vs 1x10, otherwise it could have all fit in the Battalion.
Klowny wrote:Not sure if its been spotted already, but techomancer and master technomancer only affect models within 3", not entire units. Probably mean every 20 man warrior blob will need its own cryptek, which will mean orikan is fine for a mono blob but anything after that its looking like multiple crypteks.
So I figure Id have a new style death star. GA in the center (broadside), with immortals out front, warriors on the flanks with a cryptek in each (trying to give as much of the 5++ to the immortals. Just behind the immortals is the C'tan who is un-targetable due to his character rule, and behind him is the O/Lord who is MWBD'ing the immortals each turn to give them the 2+ to hit and proc tesla on 5's. The stalker shoots at whatever it needs to to give the re-rolls of 1, so it can choose small targets to buff the warrior/immortal shooting or big stuff for the backline DA. Because it is behind the broadside GA on a flyers stand, it should get cover from it . The deathmarks stay in reserve, and deep strike in to take out any snipers the other team has, so the characters stay alive as long as possible (their buffs are crucial for this to last).
So modifying the list slightly. A tad less redundancy, but better overall.
Less redundancy by dropping two crypteks vs orikan, however his buffs are much better, and he can go supersayain. He gives up shooting, but there is plenty of dakka coming out of this list anyway, and his melee punch counterbalances that. Dropped the HGC for the Heat Ray, which allowed 2x3 scarab units, better for screening duties. Yes this is a slow list, but it puts out a tonne of dakka and is highly durable. There is a GA, Res Orb, 4+ RP, 5++ star wide. March up the board, and shoot the Stalker at what ever needs to be dead, then unload the rest of the army. Cannot reiterate how much deathmarks are crucial these days, not for killing HQ's but for enemy snipers. Our HQ's are kinda fragile, so any focused fire will kill them off quicksmart, and without their buffs this plan falls off pretty quickly. Need to eliminate as much of the sniper threat as possible. Rapid firing weapons causing mortal wounds is good for this, considering that most snipers will be on not uber durable chassis.
Forgot to mention the two main armies I will be facing in 8th will be IG (primary focus) and Nid's spamming 60-100 Genestealers, So I'm looking at more anti horde stuff over high damage to kill Big nasties. This list puts out 80 Gauss shots in rapid fire range, 20 tesla shots proccing on 5's each turn, heat ray, DA and all of the C'tans dakka. I should be getting first turn vs hordes, so I should be able to eliminate snipers/whittle them down quickly. Only other thing I would change is maybe the C'tan for an anni barge. More dakka vs better all rounder is the choice, yet I love the C'tan so I'll be trying him first.
I think Deathmarks are too good to leave out, either as 5 or 10. Replace one Scarab unit with 5 Deathmarks. Their defensive ability to interrupt your opponents 'deepstrike' moves is too useful, especially if he's trying to charge - replace one unit of Scarabs for one unit of 5 Deathmarks which can block a charge lane easily.
You dont need deathmarks. You interrupt deepstrikes with scarab buble (maximum distance= phalanx -18" /enemy cant jump between your units/ - scarabs - 9" enemy deepstriking when needed, thats realy big buble when necessary).
5 or 10 deathmarks has only a litlle impact on horde alfa strike army. And dont forget that you put them 9" from enemy, so you have no chance to block charge lane cos enemy is already 9" inches from you and you have no space to put deathmarks there.
Also if you use Ethereal Interception you need to be 12" away from the unit you follow.
You guys need to read your Deathmarks rules again.
When you Ethereal Intercept, you set up within 12" of the unit you are intercepting, not outside 12".
So yes, you can block charge lanes with them.
By all means you can surround yourself up to 360 degrees with scarabs as best you can, or, you can use Deathmarks to achieve the same thing whereever they choose to go. The Deathmarks even get to shoot first. If the Deathmarks are all the placement defense you need, that frees up 9 Scarab bases to do something else. Or, if you have no need for denying placements, you can just use them as a weapon yourself, or objective grab, etc. The point is with both you have some flexibility which is what makes a good tournament list a good tournament list.
No no and no. Read all the rules for deathmarks. Yes you are right that they must be within 12" from unit they ethearel intecept, but still more than 9" away from enemy models so no block charge with them.
Deathmarks are interesting. I want to see some play with them before I pass judgement. There is nothing fantastic about their stats. Their sniper has less Strength than a Gauss Blaster, and no -AP. Basically you're really betting on hitting a 6 to cause the mortal wound. Also you're probably only going to use them to target characters. The 24" doesn't make them special either. That's the same range as everything else. They'd be overly deadly at 36". I would have rather seen them split the difference at 30" range. Really the only way I see them as being very viable is putting MWBD on them to make their mortal wound a 5+. Otherwise I see them being focused and taken out rather fast before doing anything serious. Again, I'd like to see the meta before I pass judgement.
Sorry but MWBD gives +1 to hit, but the deathmarks ability is 6+ to wound, so there is no chance how to strengthen them make mortal wound on 5+.
I think Deathmarks are too good to leave out, either as 5 or 10. Replace one Scarab unit with 5 Deathmarks. Their defensive ability to interrupt your opponents 'deepstrike' moves is too useful, especially if he's trying to charge - replace one unit of Scarabs for one unit of 5 Deathmarks which can block a charge lane easily.
You dont need deathmarks. You interrupt deepstrikes with scarab buble (maximum distance= phalanx -18" /enemy cant jump between your units/ - scarabs - 9" enemy deepstriking when needed, thats realy big buble when necessary).
5 or 10 deathmarks has only a litlle impact on horde alfa strike army. And dont forget that you put them 9" from enemy, so you have no chance to block charge lane cos enemy is already 9" inches from you and you have no space to put deathmarks there.
Also if you use Ethereal Interception you need to be 12" away from the unit you follow.
You guys need to read your Deathmarks rules again.
When you Ethereal Intercept, you set up within 12" of the unit you are intercepting, not outside 12".
So yes, you can block charge lanes with them.
By all means you can surround yourself up to 360 degrees with scarabs as best you can, or, you can use Deathmarks to achieve the same thing whereever they choose to go. The Deathmarks even get to shoot first. If the Deathmarks are all the placement defense you need, that frees up 9 Scarab bases to do something else. Or, if you have no need for denying placements, you can just use them as a weapon yourself, or objective grab, etc. The point is with both you have some flexibility which is what makes a good tournament list a good tournament list.
No no and no. Read all the rules for deathmarks. Yes you are right that they must be within 12" from unit they ethearel intecept, but still more than 9" away from enemy models so no block charge with them.
Deathmarks are interesting. I want to see some play with them before I pass judgement. There is nothing fantastic about their stats. Their sniper has less Strength than a Gauss Blaster, and no -AP. Basically you're really betting on hitting a 6 to cause the mortal wound. Also you're probably only going to use them to target characters. The 24" doesn't make them special either. That's the same range as everything else. They'd be overly deadly at 36". I would have rather seen them split the difference at 30" range. Really the only way I see them as being very viable is putting MWBD on them to make their mortal wound a 5+. Otherwise I see them being focused and taken out rather fast before doing anything serious. Again, I'd like to see the meta before I pass judgement.
Sorry but MWBD gives +1 to hit, but the deathmarks ability is 6+ to wound, so there is no chance how to strengthen them make mortal wound on 5+.
Yea MWBD is for to hit, which means it can proc tesla, but not to wound, which is what synaptic disintegrators need to proc the mortal wound.
Tomb Blades are fantastic. It's basically two Immortals squished together. Allow me to explain... Two Immortals with Gauss Blasters is 34 points (17 per). A base Tomb Blade with two Gauss Blasters is 42 points. This means an extra 8 points gets you 14" of movement instead of 5", and +1 toughness. However, they do have a -1 to their save throw for some reason. Another benefit is the unit size. Immortals can have 10-man units. At one wound per model, this is 10 wounds per max unit size. Tomb Blades have a max unit size of 6, and at 2 wounds per model, we're now at 12 wounds per unit. Additionally, Immortals having only 1 wound mean you'll be more likely to roll RP for lost models, meaning your more often in the 1/3 chance of bringing back a wound. TB having 2 wounds keeps them out of RP as often, and generates more wound regeneration per RP roll. Quick math on this: A unit of Immortals and Tomb Blades both suffer 4 wounds. This takes away 4 immortals, and 2 tomb blades. RP rolls occur. Immortals must roll FOUR 5+ to bring 4 wounds back. Tomb Blades must roll TWO 5+ to bring 4 wounds back. Mathmatically, the chance of rolling four 5+ at once is 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/81. The chance of rolling two 5+ at once is 1/9. Now, of course with more rolls you'll have more opportunities as turns come and go, but I'm more inclined to want to raise my whole unit up in one turn before they are focused down.
I like the idea of spamming tomb blades like was nasty in 7 ed. decurion. But there is few threatening dangers for them in newhammer:
1) we can expect masive spamming gravguns in new hammer too - they are nasty as in 7 ed to kill all da 3+ vehicles and monsters, where the game is full,.So is dangerous to pump them on 3+ armour cos all SM will play a lot of grav gauns in this edition too
2) they are our most versatile fast unit in this edition but unfortunately not so resilient against heavy weapons like in 7 ed. - no jink, no 4+ RP ward and a lot of multiple dmg guns in game
3) they are expensive so it will be harder to play Play them correctly with cover nerf
4) best mobile necron units (tomb blades, scarabs, wraiths) are in fast slot :-( that means min 3 HQ for playing 4-6 fast slot :-( - battalion + outrider detachments (thats the reason why maybe pretorians come in to play more often)
I will play them in minimalistic version 3 for 126 bodů
I realize we're going to be starting a new thread soon, so it's not going to matter as much, but
Guys, we probably should be spoilering our stuff more (like for posted lists and long quote chains).
Some of these comments are getting really long and people coming here to try to find new info are going to have to wade through a lot of stuff before they want to chime in.
(Thank you to the people who have already been doing so!)
skoffs wrote: I realize we're going to be starting a new thread soon, so it's not going to matter as much, but
Guys, we probably should be spoilering our stuff more (like for posted lists and long quote chains).
Some of these comments are getting really long and people coming here to try to find new info are going to have to wade through a lot of stuff before they want to chime in.
(Thank you to the people who have already been doing so!)
This would make sense when the members here have full access to the index and rule books.
necr0n wrote: Orikan andD.Lord are kinda scary in CC, so they're not entirely doomed if things get physical.
Is he, though?
I'm just not seeing it.
Is there actually something special that makes him good in combat, or are people still looking at him with previous edition tinted glasses?
He wasn't even that good last edition since he had a lower WS than Overlords as well, so was often hitting on 4+ against lots of things while Overlords were 3+. He was used because he had his rerolls and better durability with T6.
Now, he has +1W, +1T, +1A, rerolls 1s to hit, moves faster. He can also take a Phylactery, which Overlords can't. On the other hand, he doesn't have MWBD.
As a singular fighty unit, he's potentially better. T6 means he's rarely being wounded on 2+, and even though he's hitting on 3+, rerolling 1s and having an extra attack means he's actually better overall. The Overlord is better for the army, since it buffs dudes around it, so if you think the DLord will get in, he'll probably be better, but if you think you want someone to just hang back and support/bodyguard the rest of your army, the Overlord is better. Both are reasonable.
The DLord can be a decent choice to tag along with a C'tan alongside Wraiths for a ministar too since they're both fast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, double DLord + Wraiths is only slightly more than a C'Tan. Lacks a shooting attack unless you go Staff over Warscythe, but more attacks (slightly worse, but still good), better armor (2+ in cover), faster, more wounds. Characters are better than 7th, though they don't buff the Wraiths (though Wraiths are better as well). Interesting.
How was he not good last edition? Rerolling 1's to hit and wound is better than the straight 3+ hit the regular Overlord had against different units.
changemod wrote: Thinking of Anrakyr, yeah he can't transport but my will be done and his own benefit work pretty well with tesla immortals in keeping with his old phyrrian eternals concept.
How so would he benefit the Immortals over say, pairing him up with Lychguard or some other assault unit?
Just curious, I WANT him to be a good pair for the Immortals. I like his old Phyrrian idea
changemod wrote: Thinking of Anrakyr, yeah he can't transport but my will be done and his own benefit work pretty well with tesla immortals in keeping with his old phyrrian eternals concept.
How so would he benefit the Immortals over say, pairing him up with Lychguard or some other assault unit?
Just curious, I WANT him to be a good pair for the Immortals. I like his old Phyrrian idea
Nono, it's still his old squad! They just got promoted from Immortals to Lychguard!
#SoProud #Phyrria4LifeEternity
(though, seriously, you really want to have him with big groups of CC guys to maximize that extra attack he gives out)
changemod wrote: Thinking of Anrakyr, yeah he can't transport but my will be done and his own benefit work pretty well with tesla immortals in keeping with his old phyrrian eternals concept.
How so would he benefit the Immortals over say, pairing him up with Lychguard or some other assault unit?
Just curious, I WANT him to be a good pair for the Immortals. I like his old Phyrrian idea
Nono, it's still his old squad! They just got promoted from Immortals to Lychguard!
#SoProud #Phyrria4LifeEternity
(though, seriously, you really want to have him with big groups of CC guys to maximize that extra attack he gives out)
He's still useful to have with just good old Immortals and Warriors though.
8th ed does fundamentally change how Warriors and Immortals interact with Close combat.
* No more low Initative, chargers go first.
* No restrictions on charging after firing Heavy/Rapid Fire weapons.
* Universal hit modifiers - Warriors and Immortals always hit on 3+
* They're S4 which has an easier time with T6 and T7 now.
* The more damage you do the more they lose with the new morale and vehicle degradation.
* No target restriction on charging.
You should be able to take some charges when you can to max out your damage, and doubling up Warrior/Immortal attacks is useful.
So which HQ really are the best to stick with which infantry?
Destroyer Lord clearly goes with Destroyers, but can be alright with CC guys, too (doesn't really buff them unless he's got a ResOrb).
Orikan is great, but because he's so slow you can't effectively stick him with Destroyers or Praetorians who would benefit most from his buffs. Sticking him with Warriors or Immortals doesn't really seem like the best application for that guy.
Anrakyr obviously wants to be with Lychguard or something else dedicated CC. Problem is he's gotta foot slog it, so there's not really anything they'll be able to contribute to most games.
(You have no idea how pissed I am they didn't make the CCB a dedicated transport again. So many of our problems could have been solved with that solution.)
Anyway, what about the other HQ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wuestenfux wrote: @Halfpast_Yellow: Its still a bad idea to have Immortals or Warriors in cc.
They are meant for keeping the enemy at arm's length.
Very true: a shoot guy who is not shooting is not performing to his best potential.
(exceptions are made certain circumstances present themselves, obviously)
No special HQ character models for me. They have a bad taste. I never field them in any of my armies.
So it comes down to the Destroyer Lord and/or Overlord on CCB. But I have not yet understood the rules for the latter. CCB has no character entry but the Overlord.
Orikan is 5" movement + d6 for "advancing. Add the 3" bubble of at least one model's base and he should easily be able to keep up with the Destroyers. At least, it works in my books. And Destroyers without a cryptek/orikan lack an invulnerable save or improved RP. Destroyers without Invu save sound like dead destroyers to me and them being low numbers and getting their RP negated is a real problem. I honestly think Orikan/Destroyers is going to stick for as long as we have this index.
So I noticed something that might make annihilation barges more appealing - the destructor is an assault weapon. Which means you can advance and shoot with it. This makes the annihilation barge fairly mobile, as you can move up to 18" and still fire at 24" Remember that it can fly as well, so if it gets charged you can just back off and shoot.
Likewise, you can move up to 40" with the scythes and still fire with their destructors.
necr0n wrote: Orikan andD.Lord are kinda scary in CC, so they're not entirely doomed if things get physical.
Is he, though?
I'm just not seeing it.
Is there actually something special that makes him good in combat, or are people still looking at him with previous edition tinted glasses?
He wasn't even that good last edition since he had a lower WS than Overlords as well, so was often hitting on 4+ against lots of things while Overlords were 3+. He was used because he had his rerolls and better durability with T6.
Now, he has +1W, +1T, +1A, rerolls 1s to hit, moves faster. He can also take a Phylactery, which Overlords can't. On the other hand, he doesn't have MWBD.
As a singular fighty unit, he's potentially better. T6 means he's rarely being wounded on 2+, and even though he's hitting on 3+, rerolling 1s and having an extra attack means he's actually better overall. The Overlord is better for the army, since it buffs dudes around it, so if you think the DLord will get in, he'll probably be better, but if you think you want someone to just hang back and support/bodyguard the rest of your army, the Overlord is better. Both are reasonable.
The DLord can be a decent choice to tag along with a C'tan alongside Wraiths for a ministar too since they're both fast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, double DLord + Wraiths is only slightly more than a C'Tan. Lacks a shooting attack unless you go Staff over Warscythe, but more attacks (slightly worse, but still good), better armor (2+ in cover), faster, more wounds. Characters are better than 7th, though they don't buff the Wraiths (though Wraiths are better as well). Interesting.
How was he not good last edition? Rerolling 1's to hit and wound is better than the straight 3+ hit the regular Overlord had against different units.
Statistically, he got .1 more wounds through than an equivalent Overlord in 7th. That's not a beatstick, neither of them were. You brought the DLord to give out PE and potentially keep up with Wraiths. Now, with the extra attack, he pushes through .45 more successes, which still isn't much better, but since those successes are 2 Damage, it means he does 1 more wound on average.
So I take it back, he's not much more of a beatstick (though statistically better than 7th), but his speed and durability have gone way up comparatively. He has a higher ceiling with the extra attack, and can reliably make it into combat having double the speed.
(You have no idea how pissed I am they didn't make the CCB a dedicated transport again. So many of our problems could have been solved with that solution.)
Honestly, the current CCB really does seem like the worst of both worlds.
- It contains a character, but doesn't actually benefit from the rules for such.
- It's an Overlord, but lacks an invulnerable save and can't be upgraded to have one.
- It's fast, but is unable to buff anything other than our footslogging infantry.
- It's supposed to be an Overlord and a vehicle, however it has no more wounds than an Annihilation Barge (which uses an identical chassis).
- It is supposed to be an Overlord and a vehicle, however, it has the same number of attacks as the Annihilation Barge (if that can attack without an overlord, why can the CCB chassis not do the same?).
- It seems to exist only to expose the Overlord on it to enemy fire, whilst ensuring that he goes down with his craft.
It still really bugs me that the Overlord can't get out if/when the barge is destroyed.
I'm actually wondering about the Tomb Stalker rules. I know we won't find them out for around a month, but I think it could patch a hole - mobility. See, where deep striking in flayed ones is dangerous to enemy back lines (and I think people here are severely underestimating them in that regard - you can silence a guard back line if they're not exceptionally careful), they're still really quite slow. Tomb Stalkers should be faster, so if they can still deep strike (and I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to - it's kinda their defining thing) they're a serious threat. As long as their rules are even remotely usable, I can see them becoming very good choices.
For once, because they're playtested by the same group, the FW stuff might be pretty good. That said, if they don't make the Pylon about as good as the shadowsword at killing vehicles I'm going to be very annoyed.
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vipoid wrote: Honestly, the current CCB really does seem like the worst of both worlds.
- It contains a character, but doesn't actually benefit from the rules for such. - It's an Overlord, but lacks an invulnerable save and can't be upgraded to have one. - It's fast, but is unable to buff anything other than our footslogging infantry. - It's supposed to be an Overlord and a vehicle, however it has no more wounds than an Annihilation Barge (which uses an identical chassis). - It is supposed to be an Overlord and a vehicle, however, it has the same number of attacks as the Annihilation Barge (if that can attack without an overlord, why can the CCB chassis not do the same?). - It seems to exist only to expose the Overlord on it to enemy fire, whilst ensuring that he goes down with his craft.
It still really bugs me that the Overlord can't get out if/when the barge is destroyed.
I think part of our issue is that Quantum Shielding really doesn't help much and our vehicles are still very fragile. I would trade the Annihilation Barge for the Razorback in a heartbeat.
skoffs wrote: So which HQ really are the best to stick with which infantry?
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wuestenfux wrote: @Halfpast_Yellow: Its still a bad idea to have Immortals or Warriors in cc.
They are meant for keeping the enemy at arm's length.
Very true: a shoot guy who is not shooting is not performing to his best potential.
(exceptions are made certain circumstances present themselves, obviously)
The point is you no longer have to choose. You can shoot AND assault.
We're not Tau who hit on 5+ or Str3 guard.
If you kite all day with 5" move warriors then sure, but the nature of phalanx game and 12" rapidfire means you will have chances to assault for extra damage.
changemod wrote: Thinking of Anrakyr, yeah he can't transport but my will be done and his own benefit work pretty well with tesla immortals in keeping with his old phyrrian eternals concept.
How so would he benefit the Immortals over say, pairing him up with Lychguard or some other assault unit?
Just curious, I WANT him to be a good pair for the Immortals. I like his old Phyrrian idea
Nono, it's still his old squad! They just got promoted from Immortals to Lychguard!
#SoProud #Phyrria4LifeEternity
(though, seriously, you really want to have him with big groups of CC guys to maximize that extra attack he gives out)
He's still useful to have with just good old Immortals and Warriors though.
8th ed does fundamentally change how Warriors and Immortals interact with Close combat.
* No more low Initative, chargers go first.
* No restrictions on charging after firing Heavy/Rapid Fire weapons.
* Universal hit modifiers - Warriors and Immortals always hit on 3+
* They're S4 which has an easier time with T6 and T7 now.
* The more damage you do the more they lose with the new morale and vehicle degradation.
* No target restriction on charging.
You should be able to take some charges when you can to max out your damage, and doubling up Warrior/Immortal attacks is useful.
I'm simply saying that my will be done stacked with his own buff means a tesla immortal unit can hit on twos, tesla on fives, then get a bonus to charge range, then hit twice each on a 2+.
Hardly the same close combat output as Lychguard, but still a fairly large buff to single turn damage output if you do it where virtually guaranteed to kill the target unit before they can strike back.
And no, don't take this as some optimal super-combo, just a note that he can still make his prior fluff unit happen.
wuestenfux wrote: @Halfpast_Yellow: Its still a bad idea to have Immortals or Warriors in cc.
They are meant for keeping the enemy at arm's length.
The two games I have played so far have shown me that, against assault armies, your phalanx will get charged, but also that it's not that bad. A lot of the game can take place at very close quarters now with units getting repeatedly charged and falling back. Necrons seem very good at taking the charge, surviving, then falling back and letting the rest of the army shoot. Orkian really is the best HQ choice in this situation due to his 5++ buff working in CC. Any big scary monster charging a unit or Warriors or Immortals will really wiff. Swarmlord T1 charge? He will kill 3ish models, the unit will pass morale, fall back and he gets lit up. horde CC units need to be reduced in numbers before they get to you as they have a chance of wiping you.
Based on my experience I now see more value in Anrakyr or Zhandek + Obryn (spelling is hard). Anrakyrs attack buff is good on warriors and immortals if they are getting into combat (they will) and Ghostwalk mantle effectively allows a unit to fall back then act normally. eg: If you screen the rest of your phalanx with 20 warriors, and have NZ and VO in the middle of it, the Warriors can take the charge then be teleported back a few inches out of combat. They will res up, rapid fire, then charge (hitting on 2s from MWBD). I did this to a unit of genestealers and it wrecked them.
A phalanx of Warriors and immortals (maybe a small Lychguard unit) with Orikan, NZ and VO are not an easy thing to assault at all.
skoffs wrote: So which HQ really are the best to stick with which infantry?
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wuestenfux wrote: @Halfpast_Yellow: Its still a bad idea to have Immortals or Warriors in cc.
They are meant for keeping the enemy at arm's length.
Very true: a shoot guy who is not shooting is not performing to his best potential.
(exceptions are made certain circumstances present themselves, obviously)
The point is you no longer have to choose. You can shoot AND assault.
We're not Tau who hit on 5+ or Str3 guard.
If you kite all day with 5" move warriors then sure, but the nature of phalanx game and 12" rapidfire means you will have chances to assault for extra damage.
Yeah, you can now assault after using a rapid fire weapon. Which means that if you want to go phalanx of death and steadily face wreck the enemy you can.
Warrior attacks are about as strong as the flayers, just without the AP, so you basically get another round of damage if you charge. You don't even have to worry about that pesky I2 and sweep anymore.
I think part of our issue is that Quantum Shielding really doesn't help much and our vehicles are still very fragile. I would trade the Annihilation Barge for the Razorback in a heartbeat.
Agreed. They also seem to have poor offensive abilities.
Also, there's basically no customisation. With the Annihilation Barge, for example, you can change the secondary weapon but not the primary one. So if you need anything other than a lot of S7 shots you have to look for an entirely different unit.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: TBF, you couldn't change the primary weapon before either.
Yeah, but before it was an excellent all-rounder weapon - being an excellent way to strip hp from transports and a good way to put wounds on infantry.
With the various changes, it now sucks at virtually every role. The changes to the to-wound table mean that its weapon is rarely better than S5 against most infantry, and the changes to vehicles mean that it struggles to wound them, they still get their full save and they have vastly more wounds for it to try and strip off.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'd be more irritated at the lack of customization of our HQ choices.
skoffs wrote: So which HQ really are the best to stick with which infantry?
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wuestenfux wrote: @Halfpast_Yellow: Its still a bad idea to have Immortals or Warriors in cc.
They are meant for keeping the enemy at arm's length.
Very true: a shoot guy who is not shooting is not performing to his best potential.
(exceptions are made certain circumstances present themselves, obviously)
The point is you no longer have to choose. You can shoot AND assault.
We're not Tau who hit on 5+ or Str3 guard.
If you kite all day with 5" move warriors then sure, but the nature of phalanx game and 12" rapidfire means you will have chances to assault for extra damage.
Okay I understand.
But assaulting (for extra damage) has a downside for non-cc specialists. If they charge, they might be wiped out iimmediately and then the enemy can move freely in his turn. In this case, it is better to stay outside of cc and receive the charge.
Orikan is great, but because he's so slow you can't effectively stick him with Destroyers or Praetorians who would benefit most from his buffs. Sticking him with Warriors or Immortals doesn't really seem like the best application for that guy.
Unfortunately, Orikan does nothing for Praetorians. Praetorians lack the "SAUTEKH" or "<DYNASTY>" keyword, which are present in both of Orikan's abilities. Even Overlords and Crypteks state "<DYNASTY>" in their abilities. This is the main reason why I feel that Praets are way overpriced for their value. They can't be buffed by anything. They just ARE. I hope in the Codex they get a <DYNASTY> keyword.
skoffs wrote: So which HQ really are the best to stick with which infantry?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wuestenfux wrote: @Halfpast_Yellow: Its still a bad idea to have Immortals or Warriors in cc.
They are meant for keeping the enemy at arm's length.
Very true: a shoot guy who is not shooting is not performing to his best potential.
(exceptions are made certain circumstances present themselves, obviously)
The point is you no longer have to choose. You can shoot AND assault.
We're not Tau who hit on 5+ or Str3 guard.
If you kite all day with 5" move warriors then sure, but the nature of phalanx game and 12" rapidfire means you will have chances to assault for extra damage.
Okay I understand.
But assaulting (for extra damage) has a downside for non-cc specialists. If they charge, they might be wiped out iimmediately and then the enemy can move freely in his turn. In this case, it is better to stay outside of cc and receive the charge.
No you charge when you have a clear mathematical advantage, not willy-nilly. It's a tactical tool to remember you have.
Orikan is great, but because he's so slow you can't effectively stick him with Destroyers or Praetorians who would benefit most from his buffs. Sticking him with Warriors or Immortals doesn't really seem like the best application for that guy.
Unfortunately, Orikan does nothing for Praetorians. Praetorians lack the "SAUTEKH" or "<DYNASTY>" keyword, which are present in both of Orikan's abilities. Even Overlords and Crypteks state "<DYNASTY>" in their abilities. This is the main reason why I feel that Praets are way overpriced for their value. They can't be buffed by anything. They just ARE. I hope in the Codex they get a <DYNASTY> keyword.
The way things are going, I'd half expect that we get a Silent King model down the line.
If so, I hope they have the sense to make him jump, so he can keep up with his own personal guard/cia.
No you charge when you have a clear mathematical advantage, not willy-nilly. It's a tactical tool to remember you have.
Of course.
But with Immortals or Warriors charging brings hardly a tactical advantage. If they charge guardsmen, the enemy must have made something wrong.
wuestenfux wrote: @Halfpast_Yellow: Its still a bad idea to have Immortals or Warriors in cc.
They are meant for keeping the enemy at arm's length.
The two games I have played so far have shown me that, against assault armies, your phalanx will get charged, but also that it's not that bad. A lot of the game can take place at very close quarters now with units getting repeatedly charged and falling back. Necrons seem very good at taking the charge, surviving, then falling back and letting the rest of the army shoot. Orkian really is the best HQ choice in this situation due to his 5++ buff working in CC. Any big scary monster charging a unit or Warriors or Immortals will really wiff. Swarmlord T1 charge? He will kill 3ish models, the unit will pass morale, fall back and he gets lit up. horde CC units need to be reduced in numbers before they get to you as they have a chance of wiping you.
Based on my experience I now see more value in Anrakyr or Zhandek + Obryn (spelling is hard). Anrakyrs attack buff is good on warriors and immortals if they are getting into combat (they will) and Ghostwalk mantle effectively allows a unit to fall back then act normally. eg: If you screen the rest of your phalanx with 20 warriors, and have NZ and VO in the middle of it, the Warriors can take the charge then be teleported back a few inches out of combat. They will res up, rapid fire, then charge (hitting on 2s from MWBD). I did this to a unit of genestealers and it wrecked them.
A phalanx of Warriors and immortals (maybe a small Lychguard unit) with Orikan, NZ and VO are not an easy thing to assault at all.
Yeah that's the big thing I noticed with NZ and VO after parsing the new mechanics more you basically get the free action fallback for a block of Warriors or the like, which is most of the time way better than the 'slingshot' stuff with dedicated CC units we were talking about originally with the Ghostwalk mantle.
It's really good, but it should be, because the pair of them are 331 points and as you say you really want Orikan for the whole +1 to res and 5+ Invul in CC schtick. So it ends up 1/4 of an army as HQ. But those three with Warriors, Immortals, Ghost Ark for rerolls, you have a super hard nut phalanx. The problem is points are so stretched for everything else.
No you charge when you have a clear mathematical advantage, not willy-nilly. It's a tactical tool to remember you have.
Of course.
But with Immortals or Warriors charging brings hardly a tactical advantage. If they charge guardsmen, the enemy must have made something wrong.
There's no point reaching for the extreme example when there is a wealth of possibilities in the middleground that prove the point.
Think a 10 strong Space Marine Assault squad without cover in 12" range of 10 Gauss Blaster Immortals . The Immortals kill ~6 of them with their rapidfire guns. That leaves 4 left with special weapons, powerweapon sergeant, etc.
They have what, LD8 with a reroll? They can easily pass it, lose 1 guy on a 3, etc. On their turn it's an easy shoot weapons, charge and go first with the powersword, etc.
Or, you charge, kill two more, they're testing straight D6 extra casualties on 2 guys left. He has to roll a 1 with a reroll to not lose the whole unit.
skoffs wrote: Orikan is great, but because he's so slow you can't effectively stick him with Destroyers or Praetorians who would benefit most from his buffs. Sticking him with Warriors or Immortals doesn't really seem like the best application for that guy.
Unfortunately, Orikan does nothing for Praetorians. Praetorians lack the "SAUTEKH" or "<DYNASTY>" keyword, which are present in both of Orikan's abilities. Even Overlords and Crypteks state "<DYNASTY>" in their abilities. This is the main reason why I feel that Praets are way overpriced for their value. They can't be buffed by anything. They just ARE. I hope in the Codex they get a <DYNASTY> keyword.
Oh, yeah, sorry, my mistake: no Orikan (OtD*) for Praets.
Though they do have a few (exactly three) HQ who can help them: Anrakyr (AtT*), Imotekh (ItS*) and Szeras (I.S*).
Problem still, though, is that the Praets are fast, and those three are not.
*Let's just abbreviate all the special characters from now on.
Though they do have a few (exactly three) HQ who can help them: Anrakyr (AtT*), Imotekh (ItS*) and Szeras (I.S*).
Problem still, though, is that the Praets are fast, and those three are not.
*Let's just abbreviate all the special characters from now on.
Followed up with a 1750 point game last night. New rules are awesome! My friend and I play slow and we would have NEVER finished a game of that size on a week night previously. My list:
Mono
Warrior (20)
Destroyer (5) HD (1)
Orikan
Deathmarks (5)
Scarabs (3)
Anni barge (Tesla)
Doomsday Ark
Stalker (Heat Ray)
Doomsday ark was MVP again, that thing is a beast.
Anni barge was lack luster. It feels like it has a place but I can't seem to figure out its role.
Deathmarks were a surprise, I never got a good feel from them but the 6+ automatic mortal wound is great at taking down characters with invuln.
Warriors + Orikan are obnoxious. I have been using them as a web to capture units, then I retreat and blast them with the ark.
Stalker isn't much different, the new targeting relay works well with the ark. I want to change heat ray for Gauss next game for the extra range but I couldn't squeeze the points.
Scarabs are scarabs, 39 points to hold a far off objective. Didn't do anything else.
Mono was a lot of fun. Disclaimer: I am not a big tourny player, I do some local ones here and there and mostly play pickup games or games with friends. That being said, Mono seems fierce at this level of play. It drops in from the sky and blasts everything around it. I dropped my behind enemy lines one the second half of turn 1. On the start of turn 2 I dropped 5 destroyers and a HD on top of him. Now I have 5D1HD and a monolith on one side, an a doomsday ark, stalker, anni barge on the other. Warrior blob tying up units in the middle (encircle and hold). It was awesome.
Quantum shielding seems broken. I probably ignored 20+ wounds from that alone. Its fun to watch the enemy hope for a 2 or 3 on a D6 damage roll.
Couple unresolved issues we had:
Can units coming from a monolith move? In other words do they follow transport rules for disembark or rules for coming in off the board?
Can anyone attack the monolith? You have to be within 1" to attack something, but monolith is measured from the hull not the base. I haven't based my monolith yet but I think it will put him more than 1" off the table, does that mean he can't be assaulted by ground units?
Flying units can put themselves in the 2nd floor of ruins (I think...) but certain units / vehicles can not anymore. Does this mean my Doomsday ark can fly on floor 2 and be immune to assault from those units? We had an issue with Deathwatch bikers sitting on the first floor getting blasted. Felt like cheating but seemed legal.
Though they do have a few (exactly three) HQ who can help them: Anrakyr (AtT*), Imotekh (ItS*) and Szeras (I.S*).
Problem still, though, is that the Praets are fast, and those three are not.
*Let's just abbreviate all the special characters from now on.
How on earth did you get to those abbreviation?
Also, pretty sure IS is taken.
"IS" might already be a thing, but "I.S" is probably easy enough of a distinction.
(got tired of typing out long semi difficult to spell names. Simple abbreviations should be easy enough for people to follow. I'll change my sig so it'll be easier for new folks to know what I might be talking abou if they stumble across any of my posts where I use them)
Morris782 wrote: Quantum shielding seems broken. I probably ignored 20+ wounds from that alone. Its fun to watch the enemy hope for a 2 or 3 on a D6 damage roll.
Couple unresolved issues we had:
Can units coming from a monolith move? In other words do they follow transport rules for disembark or rules for coming in off the board?
Can anyone attack the monolith? You have to be within 1" to attack something, but monolith is measured from the hull not the base. I haven't based my monolith yet but I think it will put him more than 1" off the table, does that mean he can't be assaulted by ground units?
Flying units can put themselves in the 2nd floor of ruins (I think...) but certain units / vehicles can not anymore. Does this mean my Doomsday ark can fly on floor 2 and be immune to assault from those units? We had an issue with Deathwatch bikers sitting on the first floor getting blasted. Felt like cheating but seemed legal.
Interesting, I'm yet to see QS do much at all. Seems very list dependent - lots of autocannons/assault cannons/plasma seems to melt them, and I haven't seen that many lascannons yet.
1) Units from a Monolith cannot move after they arrive as per the reserve unit rules on the movement phase page.
2) Not sure I understand? The hull means the entire thing - it's quite easy to get within 1" of a Monolith. You can't model for advantage to raise it higher than that - you count it as the height it should be if modeled normally.
3) Yes, that's exactly how flying units work. Yes, it's a bit cheesy.
skoffs wrote: "IS" might already be a thing, but "I.S" is probably easy enough of a distinction.
(got tired of typing out long semi difficult to spell names. Simple abbreviations should be easy enough for people to follow. I'll change my sig so it'll be easier for new folks to know what I might be talking abou if they stumble across any of my posts where I use them)
I get that. What puzzled me was the abbreviations didn't seem to bear any resemblance to the names they were supposed to be abbreviating.
e.g. I'd have thought a better abbreviation for Szeras would be something like 'Sz' or 'Szs', rather than 'I.S'.
Today's Reqcron Tactica: Comparing Flayed Ones and Wraiths.
Comparing 11 Flayed Ones (231) to 6 Wraiths (228) [3 point difference was most negligible I could make it]:
Damage output
Spoiler:
Both hit on 3+
Flayed Ones: 44 Attacks. S4 AP0, rerolling Wounds. Average 29.33 hits.
Wraiths: 18 Attacks. S6 AP-1. Average 12 hits.
Against T4 4+:
Flayed Ones: 22 Wounds done, 11 wounds taken.
Wraiths: 8 Wounds done, 5.33 wounds taken
Against T4 3+:
Flayed Ones: 22 Wounds done, 7.33 wounds taken.
Wraiths: 8 Wounds done, 4 wounds taken
Against T4 2+:
Flayed Ones: 22 Wounds done, 3.66 taken
Wraiths: 8 Wounds done, 2.66 taken
Against T5 3+:
Flayed Ones: 16.3 Wounds done, 5.43 taken
Wraiths: 8 Wounds done, 4 taken
Against T5 2+:
Flayed Ones: 16.3 Wounds done, 2.72 taken
Wraiths: 8 Wounds done, 2.66 taken
Against T6 4+:
Flayed Ones: 16.3 Wounds done, 8.15 taken
Wraiths: 6 Wounds done, 4 taken
Against T6 3+:
Flayed Ones: 16.3 Wounds done, 5.43 taken
Wraiths: 6 Wounds done, 3 taken
Against T7 4+:
Flayed Ones: 16.3 Wounds done, 8.15 taken
Wraiths: 4 Wounds done, 2.66 taken
Against T7 3+:
Flayed Ones: 16.3 Wounds done, 5.43 taken
Wraiths: 4 Wounds done, 2 taken
Against T8 4+:
Flayed Ones: 4.89 Wounds done, 2.44 taken
Wraiths: 4 Wounds done, 2.66 taken
Against T8 3+:
Flayed Ones: 4.89 Wounds done, 1.63 taken
Wraiths: 4 Wounds done, 2 taken
As you can see, FOs are better than or equal to Wraiths at every level except T8 or higher, at which point they're only very slightly behind (and the Wraiths aren't even that good anyway).
This also doesn't take into account MWBD or Imotkeh/Anrakyr being able to buff them, but honestly if you're using FOs the way they're meant to be, those characters won't be nearby for at least a few turns unless you do some sort of shenaniganry.
Durability:
Flayed Ones: 11 Wounds, 4+ (can benefit from cover)
Wraiths: 18 Wounds, 3++ (cannot benefit from cover)
Flayed Ones obviously lose out here. Except when it comes to multi-damage weapons, FOs will take 11 Lascannons minimum to kill, Wraiths could potentially take as little as 6. And FOs can stand up via RP.
However, the biggest advantage that FOs have is their pocket dimension. Wraiths are more durable, for sure, but they still have to endure likely 1 or 2 rounds of shooting before they can reach combat (if they get there). FOs aren't even on the board and can come in when and where you want (mostly, proper positioning can counter to an extent).
Mobility:
Flayed Ones move 5" and can start in a pocket dimension.
Wraiths move 12" and must start on the board.
Wraiths in general have the advantage, but FOs technically can be in the opponent's face faster, and are safer to get to charge distances. A 9" charge isn't reliable, but with a Command Point it can be made slightly more so. As said above, not only does this make them more durable by dint of not being able to be targeted, it also limits the opponent's movement (have to be wary of FO placement) and gives you board presence instantly without having to cross the intervening distance.
Req's thoughts:
For the price of 18 Wraiths (probably the most you'll put on the table), you can get 31 Flayed Ones. That's easily 3 units of 10, or 4 units of 7~8. While they won't all make those 9" charge, you can fairly well threaten most of the board, or even just use them to come onto objectives that are out of LOS, or go for Linebreaker. The point jump and change to RP was harsh on these guys, but honestly the fixed WS and Haunting Horrors special rule have made them stronger and more flexible than ever before.
Wraiths are obviously no slouches, but as we all know the low number of attacks for their point cost has always been their weakness, along with the fact that they get lit up as they walk across the table - not as bad as previously since Eldar took the nerf bat and Tau are different now, but still likely to lose a handful as they go forward.
I think Flayed Ones are being quite undervalued. They will singlehandedly wreck most Infantry or even Bikes in the game, and influencing Morale might even be stronger in some cases. Yes, they're pretty expensive for 1W models, but their power has jumped significantly as well.
3-4 mid-sized units of them backed with DDArks or HDestroyers and some Silver Tide style infantry will give you lots of board presence and damage output. If the opponent stays in their DZ, the Arks or Heavies will blast them to paste. If they come out, they open themselves to FO assaults. I think there's some potential for a decent list involving these guys.
skoffs wrote: "IS" might already be a thing, but "I.S" is probably easy enough of a distinction.
(got tired of typing out long semi difficult to spell names. Simple abbreviations should be easy enough for people to follow. I'll change my sig so it'll be easier for new folks to know what I might be talking abou if they stumble across any of my posts where I use them)
I get that. What puzzled me was the abbreviations didn't seem to bear any resemblance to the names they were supposed to be abbreviating.
e.g. I'd have thought a better abbreviation for Szeras would be something like 'Sz' or 'Szs', rather than 'I.S'.
I was going for their full "codex" names, but I guess their more commonly known ones wouldn't be bad.
Only issue for me is, some people call certain special characters by their title instead of their name, eg. "Nemesor" instead of "Zahndrekh". Not normally a problem at the moment, but if they start releasing other Nemesor characters, ie. Nemesor Azderon, that's gonna start confusing people (... really it's more of a personal pet peeve)
changemod wrote: Thinking of Anrakyr, yeah he can't transport but my will be done and his own benefit work pretty well with tesla immortals in keeping with his old phyrrian eternals concept.
How so would he benefit the Immortals over say, pairing him up with Lychguard or some other assault unit?
Just curious, I WANT him to be a good pair for the Immortals. I like his old Phyrrian idea
Nono, it's still his old squad! They just got promoted from Immortals to Lychguard!
#SoProud #Phyrria4LifeEternity
(though, seriously, you really want to have him with big groups of CC guys to maximize that extra attack he gives out)
He's still useful to have with just good old Immortals and Warriors though.
8th ed does fundamentally change how Warriors and Immortals interact with Close combat.
* No more low Initative, chargers go first.
* No restrictions on charging after firing Heavy/Rapid Fire weapons.
* Universal hit modifiers - Warriors and Immortals always hit on 3+
* They're S4 which has an easier time with T6 and T7 now.
* The more damage you do the more they lose with the new morale and vehicle degradation.
* No target restriction on charging.
You should be able to take some charges when you can to max out your damage, and doubling up Warrior/Immortal attacks is useful.
I'm simply saying that my will be done stacked with his own buff means a tesla immortal unit can hit on twos, tesla on fives, then get a bonus to charge range, then hit twice each on a 2+.
Hardly the same close combat output as Lychguard, but still a fairly large buff to single turn damage output if you do it where virtually guaranteed to kill the target unit before they can strike back.
And no, don't take this as some optimal super-combo, just a note that he can still make his prior fluff unit happen.
Seems like the biggest drawback of Anraykr is his slow speed and the fact he has to footslog it with a unit of Lychguard or some CC unit. So it could actually make a little sense to pair him with Immortals sometimes to benefit from their 24" shooting range.
Might not be able to reach the enemy in combat but at least they will be able to shoot them and draw them into cc.
Not the best case but I see some of the benefits now.
skoffs wrote: I was going for their full "codex" names, but I guess their more commonly known ones wouldn't be bad.
Ah, okay, that makes more sense.
skoffs wrote: Only issue for me is, some people call certain special characters by their title instead of their name, eg. "Nemesor" instead of "Zahndrekh". Not normally a problem at the moment, but if they start releasing other Nemesor characters, ie. Nemesor Azderon, that's gonna start confusing people (... really it's more of a personal pet peeve)
If they're anything like me, they use 'Nemesor' because they can remember how to spell it.
With regard to FOs vs Wraiths:
I think my main concern with FOs is their lack of mobility. 5" is terrible movement speed for melee infantry.
The pocket dimension thing seems like a dubious plan. If you bring them in early, then you'll be out of range of most/all your support units. If you bring them in late, then your opponent will have the opportunity to attack your army piecemeal.
What's more, if you bring them in and then fail the charge (which is pretty likely), your opponent can just move away from them and you're right back to having a melee unit with 5" movement.
I think my main concern with FOs is their lack of mobility. 5" is terrible movement speed for melee infantry.
The pocket dimension thing seems like a dubious plan. If you bring them in early, then you'll be out of range of most/all your support units. If you bring them in late, then your opponent will have the opportunity to attack your army piecemeal.
What's more, if you bring them in and then fail the charge (which is pretty likely), your opponent can just move away from them and you're right back to having a melee unit with 5" movement.
Yeah, that's always the downside. However, you are in essence dictating the movement of your opponents. Now that they don't need to scatter, you can reliably throw them as close to objectives as possible and force the opponent to commit heavily to shooting you off. If they don't, they have to engage you. They're a bit expensive for an objective grabber, but objectives win games.
Here's the big question we need to be asking ourselves...
If a Pox Walker kills a Necron Warrior, and thus gains a Pox Walker, then the next turn the Necron player rolls RP and gets the Warrior back...
Rules as written, both will happen... but it sure is screwy to think about... or how a Pox Walker would rise from a metallic Necron Warrior in the first place!
buddha wrote: If I'm needing a counter charge or charge blocker unit then I can't see how FOs can compete with the movement and durability of the wraiths.
How do Scarabs compare, as far as points to damage/durability ratio go?
If a Pox Walker kills a Necron Warrior, and thus gains a Pox Walker, then the next turn the Necron player rolls RP and gets the Warrior back...
Rules as written, both will happen... but it sure is screwy to think about... or how a Pox Walker would rise from a metallic Necron Warrior in the first place!
I think...you just created a time paradox Yeah, that's an odd rules interaction. Maybe that should go into the FAQ list.
2) Not sure I understand? The hull means the entire thing - it's quite easy to get within 1" of a Monolith. You can't model for advantage to raise it higher than that - you count it as the height it should be if modeled normally.
I guess I always thought the monolith had a flying base, it has the little circle on the bottom where I could attach one. Looking at the kit again I don't see it so that makes a lot more sense.
buddha wrote: If I'm needing a counter charge or charge blocker unit then I can't see how FOs can compete with the movement and durability of the wraiths.
How do Scarabs compare, as far as points to damage/durability ratio go?
17 Scarabs is 221, so comparable points.
51 Attacks, 34 hits, 11.33 Wounds against anything T4 or higher (don't really care about T3, all options will shred them in combat).
Against 2+, 1.88 wounds.
Against 3+, 3.77 wounds.
Against 4+, 5.66 wounds.
Around the same damage output as Wraiths in most cases, worse than Flayed Ones against anything T7 or lower, better than them against T8.
Durability is... interesting. 5+ sucks and you can't get anything better since they're not Infantry. But it's 51 wounds, putting both units to shame, making them super duper annoying against D1 weapons.
They have to walk across the table, and are 2" slower than Wraiths. But, for the price of 18 Wraiths (again, probably the most you'll spend on melee units), you can get 52~53 of the little buggers, meaning even with lascannons shooting at your 13 point models, you'll generally get across with enough to start the tarpit.
That's actually hilarious. I don't particularly enjoy the idea of a mass Scarab list, but if you take an Outrider Detachment you can comfortably fit 36 bases. Now, even bolters will make damage stick to them, but you'll need a lot of bullets to put them down. And even D2 weapons aren't preferable, because every other one that gets through will overkill and "waste" damage. So yeah I have to agree that these guys are our premier board clogs. I can already see Khorne armies tearing out their hair trying to charge our important models through 5+ units of speedbump Scarabs.
Edit:
I wonder how many bases I have at my place. I know I have at least ~20? Could likely make more with little extra bases and a few Scarab bits? Time to hit the bit store I guess haha.
Dew wrote: This is a hilarious idea.
Where can you order just the scarabs if I ever decide to be a total jackass and try this?
You can reliably get them from a Bit store. The "official" way to build it to put 4 Scarabs per 40mm base, but you can easily just get some extra bases and put 2 or 3 Scarabs for base to get more mileage out of them.
Or if you're feeling extra lazy/cheesy, you can go for Spruecrons:
File this under why you shouldn't trust intuition, by every check I can think of wraiths are still one of, if not the, toughest unit per point. I updated the defense spreadsheet to take into account crpytek buffs, repair protocols and living metal, with similar outputs to the damage sheet. Also C'tan are surprisingly resilient , even without hiding behind a unit. here is the link to the updated defense sheet:
Well, we can fit 158 Scarabs into a non-battle-forged 2000pt army, take no command points, and just flood the table and eat everything on 5+ (and just hope for no fliers). How about that?
At 39 points for 3 bases, they're definitely worth considering for a "control" unit.
So many uses!
- Deny deep strike areas.
- Bubble wrap.
- Assault speed bumps.
- Quickly grab objectives.
- Distraction/harassment.
- Actually throwing the odd wound on big stuff.
As was pointed out earlier, because they don't have RP there's no worry about maxing out units. Spam minimum units of them to maximize potential.
Are your opponents going to waste shots which could have gone into your good stuff to get rid of an obviously disposable unit, or are they going to let them freely run around and annoy their army?
Dew wrote: This is a hilarious idea.
Where can you order just the scarabs if I ever decide to be a total jackass and try this?
No way to order Scarabs directly. You make make 4 or so from the Obelisk/Tesseract box and the Warrior box contains 3 of them.
How about alternative models?
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Well, we can fit 158 Scarabs into a non-battle-forged 2000pt army, take no command points, and just flood the table and eat everything on 5+ (and just hope for no fliers). How about that?
You could drop a few bases and throw in some cheap HQ to make a bunch of Outrider detachments, thus giving you some command points?
Dew wrote: This is a hilarious idea.
Where can you order just the scarabs if I ever decide to be a total jackass and try this?
No way to order Scarabs directly. You make make 4 or so from the Obelisk/Tesseract box and the Warrior box contains 3 of them.
How about alternative models?
You can be an absolute cheapskate and stick one Scarab on each base (make some new basses for them out of cardstock)
Alternatively, you can use greenstuff to make a mold and stick tons of them on a base, so it really looks like a swarm (with debris and painted up, they look pretty decent).
Dew wrote: This is a hilarious idea.
Where can you order just the scarabs if I ever decide to be a total jackass and try this?
No way to order Scarabs directly. You make make 4 or so from the Obelisk/Tesseract box and the Warrior box contains 3 of them.
How about alternative models?
You can be an absolute cheapskate and stick one Scarab on each base (make some new basses for them out of cardstock)
Alternatively, you can use greenstuff to make a mold and stick tons of them on a base, so it really looks like a swarm (with debris and painted up, they look pretty decent).
Spoiler:
Ooooh that's clever. I need to try that.
So you just stick a blob of GS into the mold?
Dew wrote: This is a hilarious idea.
Where can you order just the scarabs if I ever decide to be a total jackass and try this?
No way to order Scarabs directly. You make make 4 or so from the Obelisk/Tesseract box and the Warrior box contains 3 of them.
How about alternative models?
You can be an absolute cheapskate and stick one Scarab on each base (make some new basses for them out of cardstock)
Alternatively, you can use greenstuff to make a mold and stick tons of them on a base, so it really looks like a swarm (with debris and painted up, they look pretty decent).
Spoiler:
Those look great.
Once you have the mold, do you use more greenstuff to fill it and make the scarabs?
Make a small pile of the molded ones and a single real one on the top with his peg, so it looks like he's jumping out from the swarm.
Ok, so to be clear, the mold is made out of greenstuff or not? And do you fill the mold with greenstuff? Those scarabs looked like they were made out of greenstuff.
File another lesson under don't do math while tired. fixed a few glitches in the sheet.
So I finally got around to doing the math for consecutive rounds of regen while under fire from the original weapons, turns out that a ten man tac squad with bolters can't kill a ten man warrior squad, not with average rolls anyway. Same for a 5 man dev squad with las cannons. Those are both without a cryptek, or a barge.
The takeaway is that when It comes to the 20 man warrior blob a cryptek is overkill. Few things do enough damage quickly enough to overwhelm repair protocols for that large of a group, and those that do will be doing additional damage via battle shock. Without a cryptek it takes a sustained 7 dead warriors per round to be able to wipe them out, and that's after 7 rounds of shooting, assuming you pass all of your battle shock test. with battle shock it's probably 5 or 6 rounds ish. At those levels of casualties adding a cryptek is not going to offset further increase from battle shock. Crypteks are useful for Ghost arks, but can't keep up, they are also dead useful for small tough units like destroyers, but can't keep up. Even Illuminor Szeras is too slow to keep up with the units that would benefit most from him. Gonna have to think on that one.
Ok, so to be clear, the mold is made out of greenstuff or not? And do you fill the mold with greenstuff? Those scarabs looked like they were made out of greenstuff.
I use a substance called Instamold to make my copies. It works wonders.
Here are some praetorians I've been copying with that thing:
Spoiler:
But I think it would work great for scarabs. I haven't used it for mine and did a proper silicone mold for resin casts because it yields more scarabs per cast, but these are the results I got:
Spoiler:
I really believe that instamolds would yield just as great results.
Greenstuff molds as you are suggestiung can work, but quickly degrade after a few casts.
Back on topic. This edition is looking like a great edition for Necrons. I'm just sad that our flyers aren't as good as they used to because they must drop a unit a time. I wish they could bring a unit + 1 character at least, that seems like a poorly thought out rule IMHO.
An idea I used on a few of my scarab bases is to use spare wraith heads. The size is about right and they look pretty interesting as scarabs!
I have yet to run my crons in 8th but they will be my go to for sure. Personally though after looking over the images online I think I will use more ten man warrior with ghostark approach. The mid field is gonna be easy to lock down and its not a matter of surviving but more getting there. Maybe 2x 10 man warriors in GA and a 20 man to play escort for characters.
Grimgold wrote: File another lesson under don't do math while tired. fixed a few glitches in the sheet.
So I finally got around to doing the math for consecutive rounds of regen while under fire from the original weapons, turns out that a ten man tac squad with bolters can't kill a ten man warrior squad, not with average rolls anyway. Same for a 5 man dev squad with las cannons. Those are both without a cryptek, or a barge.
The takeaway is that when It comes to the 20 man warrior blob a cryptek is overkill. Few things do enough damage quickly enough to overwhelm repair protocols for that large of a group, and those that do will be doing additional damage via battle shock. Without a cryptek it takes a sustained 7 dead warriors per round to be able to wipe them out, and that's after 7 rounds of shooting, assuming you pass all of your battle shock test. with battle shock it's probably 5 or 6 rounds ish. At those levels of casualties adding a cryptek is not going to offset further increase from battle shock. Crypteks are useful for Ghost arks, but can't keep up, they are also dead useful for small tough units like destroyers, but can't keep up. Even Illuminor Szeras is too slow to keep up with the units that would benefit most from him. Gonna have to think on that one.
Bot sure I really understand how you're calculating that. Just based off Tacs with Bolters?
Crypteks are worthwhile for Warriors because they give 5++, and if the opponent focuses more fire than just some S4 nothing guns, you'll want the RP boost.
I believe some thought should given to how to avoid needing to fall back and losing a turn of shooting when we face dedicated assault units. We can use a screening unit such as Scarabs, but I'm curious if a deployment strategy could help. I'm thinking with a blob of 20 Warriors it might be best to deploy them in a counter-charge formation against assault armies that would look something like this:
..........W.....W......W......W
..............W..............W
..........W W W W W W W
..........W W W W W W W
The first two ranks are spread out to maximum distance and the third rank is another 2" behind the second rank. The third and fourth ranks are bunched up together. The idea here is that Pile In moves and Consolidation moves are optional and I would choose not to move the back ranks. Hopefully that will mean my opponent can only engage a small part of the Warrior unit, and if they're getting charged, then it's likely by a unit that can kill 6ish Warriors in a single phase. Also, I can keep my first two ranks intact until the charge since I can remove casualties from anywhere in the unit. The entire point is that my opponent won't be able to consolidate within 1" of the third rank meaning the Warrior unit is no longer engaged. Then I won't have to spend a turn falling back in order to get to shoot. Against horde units, the first two ranks would probably need more Warriors to create an effective screen, but not too many as to survive the assault.
Also, since I'm running Orikan, I would have the option to choose to use the 5+ invulnerable save in order to increase my chances of the first two ranks of Warriors dying.
I should be getting in some games this weekend against a Tyranids player to test this formation. If he's playing deepstrike units, then I might have to modify this a bit into a spider-like formation, but keep the core premise alive.
This might have too large of a footprint to be practical, but that might be useful in objective games, and I just want to try as many things as I can before heading into a tournament setting.
Make a small pile of the molded ones and a single real one on the top with his peg, so it looks like he's jumping out from the swarm.
Ok, so to be clear, the mold is made out of greenstuff or not? And do you fill the mold with greenstuff? Those scarabs looked like they were made out of greenstuff.
Oh, yeah, sorry,
Scarabs are made out of Greenstuff. Mold is Instamold (or hot glue, if you want to experiment).
Like was mentioned above, you can make some molds out of greenstuff, too, but it doesn't work as well.
78zrider wrote: Are doom scythes considered bad. I know they are a decent amount of points but I have the urge to run 2 of them and shoot stuff with that s10 ray
Since it's a Heavy weapon, you'll be hitting on 4's with it. I tried a Doom Scythe in a game, and it wasn't too impressive. But definitely give it a go and get a feel for them. They're fun even if not always effective.
78zrider wrote: Are doom scythes considered bad. I know they are a decent amount of points but I have the urge to run 2 of them and shoot stuff with that s10 ray
I want to say they're bad. The Death Ray is Heavy, so you'll always be a - 1 to hit it, and it is random shots. So... Same gun as the DArk but shorter range, worse hit, and has to move... It's probably fine, but I think the DArk is just a better choice for the role.
What about using a lord with the warrior blobs for morale reroll. Seems like that and a cryptek with an Gark makes a wall of warriors that doesn't go away
78zrider wrote: What about using a lord with the warrior blobs for morale reroll. Seems like that and a cryptek with an Gark makes a wall of warriors that doesn't go away
Yeah I think the Lord is a bit undervalued. With LD10 we're a bit more resilient against Morale tests, but we'll still take them, and a reroll can prevent you from losing a whole unit. Plus they're no slouches in combat if you take the Scythe.
Grimgold wrote: File another lesson under don't do math while tired. fixed a few glitches in the sheet.
So I finally got around to doing the math for consecutive rounds of regen while under fire from the original weapons, turns out that a ten man tac squad with bolters can't kill a ten man warrior squad, not with average rolls anyway. Same for a 5 man dev squad with las cannons. Those are both without a cryptek, or a barge.
The takeaway is that when It comes to the 20 man warrior blob a cryptek is overkill. Few things do enough damage quickly enough to overwhelm repair protocols for that large of a group, and those that do will be doing additional damage via battle shock. Without a cryptek it takes a sustained 7 dead warriors per round to be able to wipe them out, and that's after 7 rounds of shooting, assuming you pass all of your battle shock test. with battle shock it's probably 5 or 6 rounds ish. At those levels of casualties adding a cryptek is not going to offset further increase from battle shock. Crypteks are useful for Ghost arks, but can't keep up, they are also dead useful for small tough units like destroyers, but can't keep up. Even Illuminor Szeras is too slow to keep up with the units that would benefit most from him. Gonna have to think on that one.
Bot sure I really understand how you're calculating that. Just based off Tacs with Bolters?
Crypteks are worthwhile for Warriors because they give 5++, and if the opponent focuses more fire than just some S4 nothing guns, you'll want the RP boost.
It's not specifically for bolters, though it could be given enough shots. It's 7 dead necron warriors per turn, however it is they get killed. Lets start with something killing six necron warriors a round, 108 bolter shots per round as an example.
Round one: 20 warriors standing, 6 die from firing, one dies from battle shock, 13 remain standing. Round Two: on the necrons, 1/3 * 7 or 2 warriors get back up, bringing the standing total to 15, incoming fire kills six, battle shock gets another, of them 9 remain Round three: On necrons turn 1/3 * 11 or 4 warriors get back up bringing the standing total to 13, incoming fire kills six of them, battle shock gets another 6 remain Round Four: On Necron turn 1/3 * 14 or 4 get back up bringing the total to 10, incoming fire gets six more and battle shock gets another. 3 remain Round Five: On necron turn 1/3 * 17 or 6 get back up bringing the total to 9, incoming fire gets another 6 and battle shock gets 1 more , 2 remain Round six: On necron turn 1/3 * 18 or six get back up bringing the total to 8, incoming fire gets anotehr six, battle shock gets another, 1 remains and game ends.
Final Tally 42 necrons warriors killed, 648 bolter shots fired. To put that in perspective it takes less bolter shots to kill a monolith. Crpytek doesn't help here because they survive, he might help with an extra warrior or two up a round for the extra shooting. if we just increase the number of warriors killed to 7 per round and add a crpytek here is what it looks like:
Round one: 20 warriors standing, incoming fire kills 7 and battle shot gets another 2 11 warriors standing. Round two: 9 * 1/2 or 5 get back up, bringing the total to 16, shooting kills 7 more and battle shock gets another 2, 7 remain. Round three: 13 * 1/2 get back up or 6, brining the standing total to 13 shooting kills 7 more and battle shock gets another for a total of 5 still standing Round four: 15 * 1/2 or 9 get back up, bringing the total to 14, shooting kills 7 and battle shock gets 2 more for a total of five remaining. Round five: 15 * 1/2 or 8 get back up for a total standing of 13, shooting kills 7 and battle shock gets 2 more, 4 remain. Round six: 16 * 1/2 or 8 get back up for a total of 12, shooting kills 7 battle shock kills another, 4 remain at the end of the game.
So your intuition is correct, crypteks should let you take more damage per round and survive, but that runs up against battle shock. When we start pressing RP to it's limits we start running into the compounding effects from battle shock, which means not even a cryptek can stem the losses. An easy way to calculate losses from bottle shock is :
so for leadership 10 and 8 casualties it is (0 + 0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4) = 1.66 lost to battle shock the same for 9 casualties is 0+1+2+3+4+5 = 2.5 lost to battle shock
So you can see battle shock took an extra person killed and turned it into two extra people killed. It takes about 13-14 warriors killed for battle shock to finish them off, but the bar to make RP a loosing battle is much lower say at 8 with a cryptek, 7 without. Crypteks are expensive, and don't do much aside from bring back units, my contention is that for a 20 man warrior blob it's not worth it to bring a cryptek. A clutch res orb will get you a similar number of models saved in a round as a cryptek does in several rounds, and for a third of the price.
**edit** and what I actually came here for, another swing at the battalion:
Speaking of Warscythes,
How necessary are they on generic HQ?
Previously they were auto-take,
In this edition, how much better are they vs Staff Of Light?
In that most of our HQ are there for buffs, do we really need them in combat?
I'm looking at options for Destroyer Lords leading Destroyer Wings, and if those units want to be hanging back and shooting, wouldn't the Staff be better for him? It's still going to be S5 AP-2 in combat, which isn't exactly garbage. The shooting it puts out might be worth it, on a unit with fly. And if things start getting too close, that's when you throw your disposable Scarabs at them to block the way!
Regardless, I'm of the opinion that support HQs are kind of a waste devoted to Warriors. They should be keeping your really expensive stuff alive, maximizing your point investments. Warriors if taken in Silver Tide are capable of surviving by themselves. At most, the two or three 20 man squads could have one between them, but never 1 Cryptek + Ghost Ark for a single unit of Warriors.
skoffs wrote:Speaking of Warscythes,
How necessary are they on generic HQ?
Previously they were auto-take,
In this edition, how much better are they vs Staff Of Light?
In that most of our HQ are there for buffs, do we really need them in combat?
I'm looking at options for Destroyer Lords leading Destroyer Wings, and if those units want to be hanging back and shooting, wouldn't the Staff be better for him? It's still going to be S5 AP-2 in combat, which isn't exactly garbage. The shooting it puts out might be worth it, on a unit with fly. And if things start getting too close, that's when you throw your disposable Scarabs at them to block the way!
Regardless, I'm of the opinion that support HQs are kind of a waste devoted to Warriors. They should be keeping your really expensive stuff alive, maximizing your point investments. Warriors if taken in Silver Tide are capable of surviving by themselves. At most, the two or three 20 man squads could have one between them, but never 1 Cryptek + Ghost Ark for a single unit of Warriors.
Warscythes are cheaper than SoLs. That's something. And better in combat. But not necessary, if you're ok with the 7 extra points for the Staff.
I don't really see it being that great on DLords. Destroyers and Heavies want to be as far away as possible, so a 12" gun isn't really going to add to their damage output. I would rather have the Scythe in case something actually gets close and I need to kill them dead. But either is probably fine.
Odrankt wrote:Is it possible to use Lynchguard Guardian Protocols to deny snipers damaging our Characters in exchange for a MW?
I am tempted to surround my HQ/Characters with a unit of 10 Lynch while foot slogging my crons.
It absolutely works on Snipers. "Roll a d6 when a Character loses a wound within 3" of this unit". Vindicares are really good now, so make a note of that if they become a big meta pick. They're still really slow melee units (slower now!), but yeah it's the only way to "prevent" Snipers.
The scarab horde is an interesting idea and it makes me happy that I have nearly doubled the number of ones I have. I already had 12 plastic ladybug versions when I decided that I liked the old metal ones better and started acquiring them (see my avatar). I will have nine metal ones by the end of the week, for a total of 21 bases and growing. I like them because they fit 3 to a base (to match the number of wounds). I made this video as a humorous way to show my friends how scarab bases function as their own wound counters during the era of Canoptek Harvest, thus the RP:
Looking for more metal ones if anyone knows a rock they are hiding under.
It absolutely works on Snipers. "Roll a d6 when a Character loses a wound within 3" of this unit". Vindicares are really good now, so make a note of that if they become a big meta pick. They're still really slow melee units (slower now!), but yeah it's the only way to "prevent" Snipers.
we could use Obyron, Deciever or a mono to teleport them within distance of our characters to prevent the foot-slogging and save our characters. Or, MWBD the lynch for +1 advance to move faster I guess. I was watching the SoCol guys on Twitch and they said Snipers wreck our Necron HQs and characters so looking for ways to prevent that if possible.
Tokhuah wrote: The scarab horde is an interesting idea and it makes me happy that I have nearly doubled the number of ones I have. I already had 12 plastic ladybug versions when I decided that I liked the old metal ones better and started acquiring them (see my avatar). I will have nine metal ones by the end of the week, for a total of 21 bases and growing. I like them because they fit 3 to a base (to match the number of wounds). I made this video as a humorous way to show my friends how scarab bases function as their own wound counters during the era of Canoptek Harvest, thus the RP:
Looking for more metal ones if anyone knows a rock they are hiding under.
Still trying to figure out a good mix of whatever in lists.
What's everyone's take on the best number and load out for Tomb Blades?
3 is obviously too small... but is 9 too many?
Ideally I'd like to have two units, for flexibility between objectives capturing and actually getting some damage in with them. Would 5 or 6 each be reasonable?
Guns both have purposes (thinking about going one unit with each), but what about other gear?
Scopes used to be auto-take, same with shields, but now... now I don't really what would be best on them (if anything?)
One of the struggles Necrons had last edition and has bled over into NewHammer is the lack of high strength, high volume shooting. Our infantry has lots of high volume, medium strength shots, and Destroyers/DDarks have low volume, massive strength shots. But we lack the ability to just put out a lot of hurt in a single turn, especially since our Infantry takes a long time to get into optimum range (and sometimes can't against gunlines or hyper-mobile armies). Here are some options now with the changes in Newhammer:
1) Annihilation Barges have gotten a lot of flack, and fairly rightfully so. But honestly, as far as fire power per point spent goes, they're pretty solid. Just expect them to explode after dishing out 11 Tesla Shots in a turn if they don't cripple their target. Relatively fast, potentially quite durable against multidamage shots with QS, and with a violent amount of dice thrown per turn, their downside is the humble Heavy Bolter.
2) Night Scythes look pretty promising the more you think about them more as a light fire vehicle and less as a Transport. Compare to an Annihilation Barge. For 20/27 points more, you get way more survivability - 50% more wounds, +1 Save, and the all important -1 to hit. You lose out on the underslung gun, which is a pretty hefty loss, but the enhanced durability makes it better for flying up the middle of the board and surviving.
Transporting things is nice, but think of it more as an occasional benefit. If you look at your opponent's list and think they've got a pretty good shot at removing your Scythe(s) in a turn or two, only put 1 unit on the Tomb World. If not, if they're mostly focused on Assault or lack the sort of fire power necessary to take down the Scythe, put 3 or 4 in and ramp up your Troops as the game goes on.
3) The Monolith is only a smidge more than 2 Night Scythes and pumps out more shots, with AP-2 and some with D3 Damage. However, the BS4+ is pretty harsh. Deep Striking in is reliable now - except that opponents can relatively easily abuse the 12" bubble. And despite having more Wounds and a higher Toughness, the -1 to hit on Scythes might make them actually a bit more survivable against things like Lascannons.
However, that AP-2 may be super important. Devastators and Havocs sitting in cover have a 2+, and those are the sorts of things you'll want to eliminate once you drop into mid/backfield. Again, think of the Transport potential as more of an occasional gimmick than a true selling point.
4) Obelisk. Supposedly the Monolith's big brother, the lack of AP makes it a bit unattractive if we're being honest. For the same price, you can get 3 Annihilation Barges, which are squishier but actually put out more damage (and 2 Night Scythes is actually only 4 less shots). Again, the opponent can do DS blocking fairly easily, but once there, it'll stick around for a while (unless you land in 15 Lascannons), and puts out a perverse amount of exploding shots.
---
Now, we're obviously not an army designed with this sort of shooting in mind. In fact, I'd venture to say it's probably designed as one of our weaknesses. However, I think Night Scythes may become a reasonable pick for our army more for being moderately survivable gunboats with potential teleporting powers than anything. 2 of them slots nicely into any list with good amounts of Gauss Troops, and even if they don't try to teleport them up, you're getting reasonable shooting with very little downside. They're only easy to kill in the context of superbuffed gunlines with hit modifiers and/or rerolls, otherwise they're quite resilient. I think any Infantry focused list could do well to include two Night Scythes.
skoffs wrote: Still trying to figure out a good mix of whatever in lists.
What's everyone's take on the best number and load out for Tomb Blades?
3 is obviously too small... but is 9 too many?
Ideally I'd like to have two units, for flexibility between objectives capturing and actually getting some damage in with them. Would 5 or 6 each be reasonable?
Guns both have purposes (thinking about going one unit with each), but what about other gear?
Scopes used to be auto-take, same with shields, but now... now I don't really what would be best on them (if anything?)
I like the idea of two 5 man units. But they're just kinda expensive now.
I don't think incoming damage will ever come in so consistently that you can say here at X amount crypteks stop paying for themselves. They change a 5+ fnp save into a 4+, that's kind of as far as you need to think about it. That they can prevent it by wiping out the unit is kind of off set by the save persisting through every turn for the rest of the game if they can't. Also can't you pass any morale check by spending 2 command points? That's an expensive trick to pull off with an average 6 cp to spend but the better your RP support the bigger a swing that results in.
2) Night Scythes look pretty promising the more you think about them more as a light fire vehicle and less as a Transport. Compare to an Annihilation Barge. For 20/27 points more, you get way more survivability - 50% more wounds, +1 Save, and the all important -1 to hit. You lose out on the underslung gun, which is a pretty hefty loss, but the enhanced durability makes it better for flying up the middle of the board and surviving.
Transporting things is nice, but think of it more as an occasional benefit. If you look at your opponent's list and think they've got a pretty good shot at removing your Scythe(s) in a turn or two, only put 1 unit on the Tomb World. If not, if they're mostly focused on Assault or lack the sort of fire power necessary to take down the Scythe, put 3 or 4 in and ramp up your Troops as the game goes on.
This makes Night Scythes an attractive option, since you can optimize deployment using the tomb world.
But I think it would work great for scarabs. I haven't used it for mine and did a proper silicone mold for resin casts because it yields more scarabs per cast, but these are the results I got:
Spoiler:
What's that huge thing right at the back on the left?
changemod wrote: I have slightly over 50 scarab bases. I could try it.
Dunno if I could find an opponent before official release in my area though, my local store is a GW.
You're allowed to use converted models at GW stores, so long as they're made of SOME genuine GW stuff (which is where the one guy on top comes in)
I own 50 legitimate, 4 scarab per base scarab bases.
The issue would be getting a pickup game in a legit store with leaked materials.
Ah, yes.
Welllll, seeing as how all the stores I've been to now have copies of the rule book and indexes so they can show customers who want to preorder, you could always try asking to use the in-store materials to play a game with your own models? ("I just wanted to see how they'd perform with the new rules.")
... That looks like 6 Command Points to me, yo.
(3 for Battle Forged, 1 for every Outrider)
Plus, you know, maximum Scarabs per unit is 9.
Maybe split some of those units up so you can make more individual ones rather than trying to focus on making them as big as you can.
If you can fit some more HQ in you can get more Command Points, too.
Maybe try
Spoiler:
"So you wanna bring the wounds, huh?"
[Outrider]
HQ-
- Lord (Staff): 91
FAST-
- 7 Scarabs: 91
- 7 Scarabs: 91
- 7 Scarabs: 91
364
... That looks like 6 Command Points to me, yo.
(3 for Battle Forged, 1 for every Outrider)
Plus, you know, maximum Scarabs per unit is 9.
Maybe split some of those units up so you can make more individual ones rather than trying to focus on making them as big as you can.
If you can fit some more HQ in you can get more Command Points, too.
yes good spot - i just quickly put together that list.
The Frontline Gaming guys (the ones who helped play test the new rules on literally every unit) shared their thoughts on how each faction plays, tactically.
Looking at their stuff for our stuff-
Necrons
Good Necron Stuff: RP, Overlord + Lord + Cryptek, Named Characters, Immortals, Big warrior bricks, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones, Quantum Shielding
Character auras are really powerful and important
Heavy Destros and Warriors for anti-vehicle
Heavy Destros > Doomsday Ark
Wraiths not as good as before
Illuminor is key
Tesserach Vault is too expensive
Very resilient army
Hmm,
So theory backed up about H.Destroyers vs Doomsday ... though odd they considered Warriors good for anti vehicle.
Looks like they're REALLY trying to push the old Royal Court setup (Overlord + Lord + Cryptek). Granted, the three of them together will definitely make any one unit incredibly good... but that's kinda the issue: only one unit.
Hmm,
So theory backed up about H.Destroyers vs Doomsday ... though odd they considered Warriors good for anti vehicle.
The Warriors thing could be just by sheer weight of fire. In a mess about game my Tesla Immortals (with MWBD) got a Land Raider down to half wounds in a few turns thanks to getting ~30 hits a turn and my opponent having some unfortunate dice rolls. I never got the Warriors to should at it since they were trying to deal with 10 Deathwing Knights (and not doing a great job) but I could see 20 rapid firing Gauss Flayers being a threat to vehicles, especially the lighter ones.
Dew wrote: This is a hilarious idea.
Where can you order just the scarabs if I ever decide to be a total jackass and try this?
No way to order Scarabs directly. You make make 4 or so from the Obelisk/Tesseract box and the Warrior box contains 3 of them.
How about alternative models?
You can always get a few more 40mm bases and put 3 on instead of 4. That will get you a few more.
Forgeworld used to carry some fugly scarabs, but they aren't on the site anymore.
PuppetsWar has some cyber spiders that would work.
skoffs wrote: The Frontline Gaming guys (the ones who helped play test the new rules on literally every unit) shared their thoughts on how each faction plays, tactically.
Looking at their stuff for our stuff-
Talking about IC for crons any of you guys seen that the storm Lord is only LD 9 ( in the couple books I've seen and all the online posts) you guys know if this is a typo?
All my monos are on bases some the standard clear plastic flight stands and a couple on same height metal ones ( broke a couple oops)
Still not a 100% how I will be fielding my crons, I know in my club what ever I bring I will hear nothing but OP this and OP that with out any of them actually playing against them or taking the time read the limitations that are inherent in our crons.
I do like the changes to QS, I feel mono / ob are just a tad too expensive for what they both do. But will try them.
I like how are flyer weapons ( tesla destructor are now two weapons so can hit two units if need be to help clear a landing area for troops.
Talking flyers to make them work slight better I may try to boost them With a stalker hitting a unit first to allow rerolls of 1s (expensive but meh!)
I do want to try zahndrekh and his counter tactics to remove synapse to force charges etc in my favour.
I def prefer flayed ones over wraiths always have and always will. Im Hoping the forge world have rules to play them even more dark and nasty.
I need to relook at a few things thou to get a better idea for alround play.
click green "clone or download" button and "Download Zip", and extract it to your data folder which is usually c:/users/(your username)/Battlescribe/data
When making a new roster the drop down will let you pick he current 8th edition.
Talking about IC for crons any of you guys seen that the storm Lord is only LD 9 ( in the couple books I've seen and all the online posts) you guys know if this is a typo?
All my monos are on bases some the standard clear plastic flight stands and a couple on same height metal ones ( broke a couple oops)
Still not a 100% how I will be fielding my crons, I know in my club what ever I bring I will hear nothing but OP this and OP that with out any of them actually playing against them or taking the time read the limitations that are inherent in our crons.
I do like the changes to QS, I feel mono / ob are just a tad too expensive for what they both do. But will try them.
I like how are flyer weapons ( tesla destructor are now two weapons so can hit two units if need be to help clear a landing area for troops.
Talking flyers to make them work slight better I may try to boost them With a stalker hitting a unit first to allow rerolls of 1s (expensive but meh!)
I do want to try zahndrekh and his counter tactics to remove synapse to force charges etc in my favour.
I def prefer flayed ones over wraiths always have and always will. Im Hoping the forge world have rules to play them even more dark and nasty.
I need to relook at a few things thou to get a better idea for alround play.
Welcome, Drewtavian!
FFG guys seemed to think that it was a typo, but no official word.
Weapons are measured from the hull, even though they have a base (same with Ghost Ark, etc). Technically, you wouldn't need to use the base at all for the Monolith. I've double based my Ghost Arks, so I like the change.
Yeah... there are already multiple threads on how the Necrons are broken (we're used to it... have been hearing it since the days of metal models.) Whatever.
I also like QS...
I had missed that the guns on our fliers are two different weapons... lemme check on that!
I prefer the Flayed Ones as well. They can act as an anvil... the rest of our units can be the hammer.
Talking about IC for crons any of you guys seen that the storm Lord is only LD 9 ( in the couple books I've seen and all the online posts) you guys know if this is a typo?
All my monos are on bases some the standard clear plastic flight stands and a couple on same height metal ones ( broke a couple oops)
Still not a 100% how I will be fielding my crons, I know in my club what ever I bring I will hear nothing but OP this and OP that with out any of them actually playing against them or taking the time read the limitations that are inherent in our crons.
I do like the changes to QS, I feel mono / ob are just a tad too expensive for what they both do. But will try them.
I like how are flyer weapons ( tesla destructor are now two weapons so can hit two units if need be to help clear a landing area for troops.
Talking flyers to make them work slight better I may try to boost them With a stalker hitting a unit first to allow rerolls of 1s (expensive but meh!)
I do want to try zahndrekh and his counter tactics to remove synapse to force charges etc in my favour.
I def prefer flayed ones over wraiths always have and always will. Im Hoping the forge world have rules to play them even more dark and nasty.
I need to relook at a few things thou to get a better idea for alround play.
Welcome, Drewtavian!
FFG guys seemed to think that it was a typo, but no official word. Weapons are measured from the hull, even though they have a base (same with Ghost Ark, etc). Technically, you wouldn't need to use the base at all for the Monolith. I've double based my Ghost Arks, so I like the change. Yeah... there are already multiple threads on how the Necrons are broken (we're used to it... have been hearing it since the days of metal models.) Whatever. I also like QS... I had missed that the guns on our fliers are two different weapons... lemme check on that! I prefer the Flayed Ones as well. They can act as an anvil... the rest of our units can be the hammer.
.
Yeah, the tesla destructors on the flyers are no longer twin linked. So you can actually fire at 3 targets with the doom scythe and 2 targets with the night. The deathray is a heavy weapon now though, which sucks, because you will always be hitting on 4s with it due to the fact that a flyer must always move. I suspect that might be an oversight.
Talking about IC for crons any of you guys seen that the storm Lord is only LD 9 ( in the couple books I've seen and all the online posts) you guys know if this is a typo?
All my monos are on bases some the standard clear plastic flight stands and a couple on same height metal ones ( broke a couple oops)
Still not a 100% how I will be fielding my crons, I know in my club what ever I bring I will hear nothing but OP this and OP that with out any of them actually playing against them or taking the time read the limitations that are inherent in our crons.
I do like the changes to QS, I feel mono / ob are just a tad too expensive for what they both do. But will try them.
I like how are flyer weapons ( tesla destructor are now two weapons so can hit two units if need be to help clear a landing area for troops.
Talking flyers to make them work slight better I may try to boost them With a stalker hitting a unit first to allow rerolls of 1s (expensive but meh!)
I do want to try zahndrekh and his counter tactics to remove synapse to force charges etc in my favour.
I def prefer flayed ones over wraiths always have and always will. Im Hoping the forge world have rules to play them even more dark and nasty.
I need to relook at a few things thou to get a better idea for alround play.
Welcome, Drewtavian!
FFG guys seemed to think that it was a typo, but no official word.
Weapons are measured from the hull, even though they have a base (same with Ghost Ark, etc). Technically, you wouldn't need to use the base at all for the Monolith. I've double based my Ghost Arks, so I like the change.
Yeah... there are already multiple threads on how the Necrons are broken (we're used to it... have been hearing it since the days of metal models.) Whatever.
I also like QS...
I had missed that the guns on our fliers are two different weapons... lemme check on that!
I prefer the Flayed Ones as well. They can act as an anvil... the rest of our units can be the hammer.
Too true on the cron beat stick. Been collecting and playing since the early days too.
Too true on the mono etc measured from the hull, had to have a stand in my club thou for when ever it was immobilised.
skoffs wrote: The Frontline Gaming guys (the ones who helped play test the new rules on literally every unit) shared their thoughts on how each faction plays, tactically.
Looking at their stuff for our stuff-
My idea is to have Zahn, Ori, O.lord, Lord and Cryptek in a "Deathstar" giving buffs to the units above. Put both 20 blob warriors to the left and right of the Dstar, my Immortals in front of the star as well. Ill use the Lynch to surround the HQs with in the star so that if my HQs get snipped I can (hopefully) 2+ the wound and put it on the lynch instead. i will then MWBD to the warriors to make them 2+ BS to get the most out of my warriors.
2 of the 5 scarabs units will be put at the back of the star to stop deepstriking units from coming up my rear and use the other scarab units to get objectives and hold up my enemies units.
2 units of deathmarks will be in reserve and will only go to the field (until turn 3) to damage my enemies DS units or units I am having trouble with. I imagine 20 shots in RF with 6s doing MW being clutch in stopping my enemy from taking out my HQs with snippers.
3 Res orbs are there for safety incase my lynch/immortals/warriors fall low in numbers.
The problem I am facing is what guns to put on the immortals and if I should invest in more scarabs by dropping a Res Orb and put those 35pts plus the 5 left over into an extra scarab unit or adding 1 to each of the scarabs I already have.
click green "clone or download" button and "Download Zip", and extract it to your data folder which is usually c:/users/(your username)/Battlescribe/data
When making a new roster the drop down will let you pick he current 8th edition.
My idea is to have Zahn, Ori, O.lord, Lord and Cryptek in a "Deathstar" giving buffs to the units above. Put both 20 blob warriors to the left and right of the Dstar, my Immortals in front of the star as well. Ill use the Lynch to surround the HQs with in the star so that if my HQs get snipped I can (hopefully) 2+ the wound and put it on the lynch instead. i will then MWBD to the warriors to make them 2+ BS to get the most out of my warriors.
2 of the 5 scarabs units will be put at the back of the star to stop deepstriking units from coming up my rear and use the other scarab units to get objectives and hold up my enemies units.
2 units of deathmarks will be in reserve and will only go to the field (until turn 3) to damage my enemies DS units or units I am having trouble with. I imagine 20 shots in RF with 6s doing MW being clutch in stopping my enemy from taking out my HQs with snippers.
3 Res orbs are there for safety incase my lynch/immortals/warriors fall low in numbers.
The problem I am facing is what guns to put on the immortals and if I should invest in more scarabs by dropping a Res Orb and put those 35pts plus the 5 left over into an extra scarab unit or adding 1 to each of the scarabs I already have.
Thanks in-advance for the help.
It's going to be very slow.
Not a lot of offence. I guess the Warriors will have to carry the army with weight of dice alone.
You could pull the extra Overlord out of the Battalion, make a 6th unit of Scarabs, and make a second Outrider detachment (three Scarab units in each) for an extra Command Point.
Charge everything. Everything you can't really hurt you just tie up. Everything you can hurt gets buried under dice. There is no speed problem because everything is quick moving or FOs from Hyperspace.
This is a cluster of blades and claws that'll leave the opponent saying "what".
Requizen: Definitely a list the opponent has to think about. It will hit the enemy front ranks in a minute. Flyers cannot be touched but its all about embracing the enemy in cc.
My idea is to have Zahn, Ori, O.lord, Lord and Cryptek in a "Deathstar" giving buffs to the units above. Put both 20 blob warriors to the left and right of the Dstar, my Immortals in front of the star as well. Ill use the Lynch to surround the HQs with in the star so that if my HQs get snipped I can (hopefully) 2+ the wound and put it on the lynch instead. i will then MWBD to the warriors to make them 2+ BS to get the most out of my warriors.
2 of the 5 scarabs units will be put at the back of the star to stop deepstriking units from coming up my rear and use the other scarab units to get objectives and hold up my enemies units.
2 units of deathmarks will be in reserve and will only go to the field (until turn 3) to damage my enemies DS units or units I am having trouble with. I imagine 20 shots in RF with 6s doing MW being clutch in stopping my enemy from taking out my HQs with snippers.
3 Res orbs are there for safety incase my lynch/immortals/warriors fall low in numbers.
The problem I am facing is what guns to put on the immortals and if I should invest in more scarabs by dropping a Res Orb and put those 35pts plus the 5 left over into an extra scarab unit or adding 1 to each of the scarabs I already have.
Thanks in-advance for the help.
No Obyron with Zandrekh??
I don't think a third Res Orb is worth giving up Ghostwalk Mantle...
My idea is to have Zahn, Ori, O.lord, Lord and Cryptek in a "Deathstar" giving buffs to the units above. Put both 20 blob warriors to the left and right of the Dstar, my Immortals in front of the star as well. Ill use the Lynch to surround the HQs with in the star so that if my HQs get snipped I can (hopefully) 2+ the wound and put it on the lynch instead. i will then MWBD to the warriors to make them 2+ BS to get the most out of my warriors.
2 of the 5 scarabs units will be put at the back of the star to stop deepstriking units from coming up my rear and use the other scarab units to get objectives and hold up my enemies units.
2 units of deathmarks will be in reserve and will only go to the field (until turn 3) to damage my enemies DS units or units I am having trouble with. I imagine 20 shots in RF with 6s doing MW being clutch in stopping my enemy from taking out my HQs with snippers.
3 Res orbs are there for safety incase my lynch/immortals/warriors fall low in numbers.
The problem I am facing is what guns to put on the immortals and if I should invest in more scarabs by dropping a Res Orb and put those 35pts plus the 5 left over into an extra scarab unit or adding 1 to each of the scarabs I already have.
Thanks in-advance for the help.
It's going to be very slow.
Not a lot of offence. I guess the Warriors will have to carry the army with weight of dice alone.
You could pull the extra Overlord out of the Battalion, make a 6th unit of Scarabs, and make a second Outrider detachment (three Scarab units in each) for an extra Command Point.
Im going to spoiler as reply is long.
Spoiler:
It will be slow but crons have always been slow. Our army is pretty resilient so I feel my opponent will have a hard time downing all the warriors with 5++ via Orikan and 4+ RP. I will just have to foot-slog the table and kill everything in my path and get as many objects as possible.
*Actually, that sparks a question about Orikans 5++. It affects Necron Infantry units within 6 inches and since all our HQs\Characters are Necron Infantry units/models are they also affected by the 5++ and Orikan can get buffed by the Crypteks 5++ against shooting?*
I feel like two MWBD will help the list a lot more then an extra CP point as I have 5 already. Also, to bring another detachment I would need a HQ as well so I dunno how to field 3x3 scarabs + lord (lowest value HQ) with dropping the Overlord.
I know everyone "dislikes" the C.Sypder but I think it would benefit the Dstar by going into the middle of it and spawning new Scarabs every turn even if they die. So a vanilla sypder is basically RP for Scarabs for 76pts. I think thats worth it.
Can the Sypder spawn the Scarabs to their actual limit of 9 or are you only able to spawn to what I field e.g. I field 1 unit of 6 Scarabs and I lose 2 bases. Do i spawn to 6 or can I spawn more then what I originally had?
Charge everything. Everything you can't really hurt you just tie up. Everything you can hurt gets buried under dice. There is no speed problem because everything is quick moving or FOs from Hyperspace.
This is a cluster of blades and claws that'll leave the opponent saying "what".
How do you deal with enemy screens? I'd be worried about getting mileage out of the Flayed Ones with min units easily able to be denied RP 15 Wraiths is a lot but they'll probably just get all the focus for mortal wounds and multi-damage. I don't think they're the hottest vehicle killers out so they might get tied up in a pinch.
Charge everything. Everything you can't really hurt you just tie up. Everything you can hurt gets buried under dice. There is no speed problem because everything is quick moving or FOs from Hyperspace.
This is a cluster of blades and claws that'll leave the opponent saying "what".
Well, if you're serious, first off your lists aren't using legal Outrider detachments.
Those restrict Elite choices to 0-2 per detachment. You've got 3 in each.
You could probably add a Vanguard Detachment if you throw in a 3rd Destroyer Lord (you'd have to free up points for it first, obviously).
My idea is to have Zahn, Ori, O.lord, Lord and Cryptek in a "Deathstar" giving buffs to the units above. Put both 20 blob warriors to the left and right of the Dstar, my Immortals in front of the star as well. Ill use the Lynch to surround the HQs with in the star so that if my HQs get snipped I can (hopefully) 2+ the wound and put it on the lynch instead. i will then MWBD to the warriors to make them 2+ BS to get the most out of my warriors.
2 of the 5 scarabs units will be put at the back of the star to stop deepstriking units from coming up my rear and use the other scarab units to get objectives and hold up my enemies units.
2 units of deathmarks will be in reserve and will only go to the field (until turn 3) to damage my enemies DS units or units I am having trouble with. I imagine 20 shots in RF with 6s doing MW being clutch in stopping my enemy from taking out my HQs with snippers.
3 Res orbs are there for safety incase my lynch/immortals/warriors fall low in numbers.
The problem I am facing is what guns to put on the immortals and if I should invest in more scarabs by dropping a Res Orb and put those 35pts plus the 5 left over into an extra scarab unit or adding 1 to each of the scarabs I already have.
Thanks in-advance for the help.
No Obyron with Zandrekh??
I don't think a third Res Orb is worth giving up Ghostwalk Mantle...
Obyron has no place in the list imo. The lynch are with the HQs so he has noting to GWM to Zahndrekh and the lynch can 2+ shots hitting my HQs. I tried Obyron 1st but he didnt really do much besides take up 151pts as this list isn't melee heavy.
Obyron only protects Zahn on a 2+ while lynch protect all Characters on 2+. Obyron also = 5 lynch w/ scythes plus an extra point. Lynch also have RP and lots of Res Orbs is a lot of 'I'll be back".
My idea is to have Zahn, Ori, O.lord, Lord and Cryptek in a "Deathstar" giving buffs to the units above. Put both 20 blob warriors to the left and right of the Dstar, my Immortals in front of the star as well. Ill use the Lynch to surround the HQs with in the star so that if my HQs get snipped I can (hopefully) 2+ the wound and put it on the lynch instead. i will then MWBD to the warriors to make them 2+ BS to get the most out of my warriors.
2 of the 5 scarabs units will be put at the back of the star to stop deepstriking units from coming up my rear and use the other scarab units to get objectives and hold up my enemies units.
2 units of deathmarks will be in reserve and will only go to the field (until turn 3) to damage my enemies DS units or units I am having trouble with. I imagine 20 shots in RF with 6s doing MW being clutch in stopping my enemy from taking out my HQs with snippers.
3 Res orbs are there for safety incase my lynch/immortals/warriors fall low in numbers.
The problem I am facing is what guns to put on the immortals and if I should invest in more scarabs by dropping a Res Orb and put those 35pts plus the 5 left over into an extra scarab unit or adding 1 to each of the scarabs I already have.
Thanks in-advance for the help.
It's going to be very slow.
Not a lot of offence. I guess the Warriors will have to carry the army with weight of dice alone.
You could pull the extra Overlord out of the Battalion, make a 6th unit of Scarabs, and make a second Outrider detachment (three Scarab units in each) for an extra Command Point.
Im going to spoiler as reply is long.
Spoiler:
It will be slow but crons have always been slow. Our army is pretty resilient so I feel my opponent will have a hard time downing all the warriors with 5++ via Orikan and 4+ RP. I will just have to foot-slog the table and kill everything in my path and get as many objects as possible.
*Actually, that sparks a question about Orikans 5++. It affects Necron Infantry units within 6 inches and since all our HQs\Characters are Necron Infantry units/models are they also affected by the 5++ and Orikan can get buffed by the Crypteks 5++ against shooting?*
I feel like two MWBD will help the list a lot more then an extra CP point as I have 5 already. Also, to bring another detachment I would need a HQ as well so I dunno how to field 3x3 scarabs + lord (lowest value HQ) with dropping the Overlord.
I know everyone "dislikes" the C.Sypder but I think it would benefit the Dstar by going into the middle of it and spawning new Scarabs every turn even if they die. So a vanilla sypder is basically RP for Scarabs for 76pts. I think thats worth it.
Can the Sypder spawn the Scarabs to their actual limit of 9 or are you only able to spawn to what I field e.g. I field 1 unit of 6 Scarabs and I lose 2 bases. Do i spawn to 6 or can I spawn more then what I originally had?
1- Crons being slow is a distraction tactic we tell our opponents so they're not ready for all the speedy things we've got. If you play a slow army, you will probably lose out of objectives (you do have some Scarabs, though, so that's probably going to have to be their job).
2- Orikan's ability effects SAUTEKH Infantry. Careful of the distinction, there, as not all our HQ/Characters have the Sautekh faction. If they are, then yes, they will get the buff. He himself can also benefit from his own buff, as the rule does not say "other friendly Sautekh Infantry".
3- I'm not saying you should remove the Overlord, I'm saying he should become the HQ for a new detachment. You'll still have two MWBD buffers on the table, PLUS an extra Command Point.
4- If you're worried about losing a disposable cheap unit like Scarabs... well, okay.
5- Spyder only gives them back what they lost. If you started with 5 you cannot go above that number.
Obyron has no place in the list imo. The lynch are with the HQs so he has noting to GWM to Zahndrekh and the lynch can 2+ shots hitting my HQs. I tried Obyron 1st but he didnt really do much besides take up 151pts as this list isn't melee heavy.
Obyron only protects Zahn on a 2+ while lynch protect all Characters on 2+. Obyron also = 5 lynch w/ scythes plus an extra point. Lynch also have RP and lots of Res Orbs is a lot of 'I'll be back".
It's not the wound shifting that I think should be the reason, but the Ghostwalk Mantle. You already have a standard lord with Res Orb, that's almost his points. Res Orbs are good and all but GWM is one of the best pieces of Wargear in the game. It's a free action disengage for one of those blocks of warriors at minimum, I wouldn't overlook it without strong consideration.
Yes, necrons are slow...until they use their teleportation shenanigans to suddenly appear in your deployment zone and blow up your artillery.
Teleportation have always been a necron gimmick, a trade off for their traditional lack of mobility.
Which is why its a bit disappointing to see them lose the veil and the monolith recall, because that a big part of that tradition.
They still have some options, but its sad to see traditional staples go.
Are we allowed to tell them that on FB yet? I mean, I don't dislike the 8th necrons as they are, but I definitely dislike how they took away some of the old flavor. They already took our inertialess drives, now they want our teleportation? This makes me a saaad murderbot.
Something I noticed after going over it finely because I kept bugging me that I was always misreading it.
Anrakyr and Imotekh are our only Overlord options that are able to hand out My Will Be Done to Triarch Praetorians. Which is a pretty big deal for it benefiting their both their shooting/assault - more AP-3 attacks, and +1 charge range.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Something I noticed after going over it finely because I kept bugging me that I was always misreading it.
Anrakyr and Imotekh are our only Overlord options that are able to hand out My Will Be Done to Triarch Praetorians. Which is a pretty big deal for it benefiting their both their shooting/assault - more AP-3 attacks, and +1 charge range.
And likewise, Szeras is the only one who can give them a 5++ save.
Really not liking the Faction restriction mechanic.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Something I noticed after going over it finely because I kept bugging me that I was always misreading it.
Anrakyr and Imotekh are our only Overlord options that are able to hand out My Will Be Done to Triarch Praetorians. Which is a pretty big deal for it benefiting their both their shooting/assault - more AP-3 attacks, and +1 charge range.
And likewise, Szeras is the only one who can give them a 5++ save.
Really not liking the Faction restriction mechanic.
It makes sense fluff wise though.
The Praetorians are above the dynasties, so they technically aren't part of any faction. Not to mention that not all dynasties are sympathetic towards the triarch and Imotekh.
Whilst one may not agree with the current direction of the necron fluff, at least the rules are consistent with it.
My idea is to have Zahn, Ori, O.lord, Lord and Cryptek in a "Deathstar" giving buffs to the units above. Put both 20 blob warriors to the left and right of the Dstar, my Immortals in front of the star as well. Ill use the Lynch to surround the HQs with in the star so that if my HQs get snipped I can (hopefully) 2+ the wound and put it on the lynch instead. i will then MWBD to the warriors to make them 2+ BS to get the most out of my warriors.
2 of the 5 scarabs units will be put at the back of the star to stop deepstriking units from coming up my rear and use the other scarab units to get objectives and hold up my enemies units.
2 units of deathmarks will be in reserve and will only go to the field (until turn 3) to damage my enemies DS units or units I am having trouble with. I imagine 20 shots in RF with 6s doing MW being clutch in stopping my enemy from taking out my HQs with snippers.
3 Res orbs are there for safety incase my lynch/immortals/warriors fall low in numbers.
The problem I am facing is what guns to put on the immortals and if I should invest in more scarabs by dropping a Res Orb and put those 35pts plus the 5 left over into an extra scarab unit or adding 1 to each of the scarabs I already have.
Thanks in-advance for the help.
It's going to be very slow.
Not a lot of offence. I guess the Warriors will have to carry the army with weight of dice alone.
You could pull the extra Overlord out of the Battalion, make a 6th unit of Scarabs, and make a second Outrider detachment (three Scarab units in each) for an extra Command Point.
Im going to spoiler as reply is long.
Spoiler:
It will be slow but crons have always been slow. Our army is pretty resilient so I feel my opponent will have a hard time downing all the warriors with 5++ via Orikan and 4+ RP. I will just have to foot-slog the table and kill everything in my path and get as many objects as possible.
*Actually, that sparks a question about Orikans 5++. It affects Necron Infantry units within 6 inches and since all our HQs\Characters are Necron Infantry units/models are they also affected by the 5++ and Orikan can get buffed by the Crypteks 5++ against shooting?*
I feel like two MWBD will help the list a lot more then an extra CP point as I have 5 already. Also, to bring another detachment I would need a HQ as well so I dunno how to field 3x3 scarabs + lord (lowest value HQ) with dropping the Overlord.
I know everyone "dislikes" the C.Sypder but I think it would benefit the Dstar by going into the middle of it and spawning new Scarabs every turn even if they die. So a vanilla sypder is basically RP for Scarabs for 76pts. I think thats worth it.
Can the Sypder spawn the Scarabs to their actual limit of 9 or are you only able to spawn to what I field e.g. I field 1 unit of 6 Scarabs and I lose 2 bases. Do i spawn to 6 or can I spawn more then what I originally had?
1- Crons being slow is a distraction tactic we tell our opponents so they're not ready for all the speedy things we've got. If you play a slow army, you will probably lose out of objectives (you do have some Scarabs, though, so that's probably going to have to be their job).
2- Orikan's ability effects SAUTEKH Infantry. Careful of the distinction, there, as not all our HQ/Characters have the Sautekh faction. If they are, then yes, they will get the buff. He himself can also benefit from his own buff, as the rule does not say "other friendly Sautekh Infantry".
3- I'm not saying you should remove the Overlord, I'm saying he should become the HQ for a new detachment. You'll still have two MWBD buffers on the table, PLUS an extra Command Point.
4- If you're worried about losing a disposable cheap unit like Scarabs... well, okay.
5- Spyder only gives them back what they lost. If you started with 5 you cannot go above that number.
1. Thats true. I do like it when my opponent thinks they have me in a tough position only for my Wraiths and Tomb Blades to flank them either side and circle around their army. I can use the 2 units of scarabs in the star to get objects behind me and use the others to get the other objectives. If i plan it right I could hold 2 objects with the star if i spread them out on the last turn (if objects are placed to my advantage) and get the last 2 by flooding them with the scarabs.
2.Yeah thats all good. I know all HQs are not Sautekh but the ones I am bringing all have Sautekh or <Dynasty>. Also the Crypteks 5++ can affect Orikan so the star will have a universal 5++. Lynch with scythes sounds good with 5++ instead of 4++.
3. Miss-read what you said. Good point. Ill see what I can do. Might have to lower the general Scarabs count.
4. Disposable, yes. But their annoying, distracting and stop my rear-end from being exposed
5.Good to have that cleared up.
Halfpast_Yellow
Thats a good point. I just feel like i will be wasting his Ghostwalk due to everything being in the middle besides a few scarabs and Deathmarks. I would happily put him in a corner and teleport him with the lynch but because our Characters are really important and can be taken down via snippers i think they need the lynch there to protect them that bit more. I could try 2-3 alternative lists and see what I could come up with.
cthululsSpy
I really wish we had the veil. So much possible movement lost for no reason I guess GW are going to see how all the armies play before they update 8th via codexs.
I would love to take a doom/night scythe if it could hover in place instead of having to move but thats a bit to much wishful thinking.
click green "clone or download" button and "Download Zip", and extract it to your data folder which is usually c:/users/(your username)/Battlescribe/data
When making a new roster the drop down will let you pick he current 8th edition.
k
Those files seem to be all modified about a month ago, are you sure they are for 8th?
And likewise, Szeras is the only one who can give them a 5++ save.
Its the RP bonus szeras gives everyone regardless of dynasty, he actually doesn't have a chronomotron to give anyone a 5++
Oh, son of a bitch, yeah, got the ability wrong.
... which means there isn't anyone who can give them (Praets) an invuln, right?
Correct. Though arguably they're not terrible without it. 35 points for fast 2W 3+ Infantry is sort of a steal. You can compare them to SM/CSM bikers. Less options, but stock with an Assault AP-3 weapon that's also the same in combat makes them pretty comparable, and they run in the mid 30s before buying upgrades. And they can't claim cover since they're Bikes and not Infantry, and don't have Fly.
Bikes are good. These guys are good. Both went up in points, of course, but that's basically everything in the game other than basic foot dudes.
click green "clone or download" button and "Download Zip", and extract it to your data folder which is usually c:/users/(your username)/Battlescribe/data
When making a new roster the drop down will let you pick he current 8th edition.
k
Those files seem to be all modified about a month ago, are you sure they are for 8th?
click green "clone or download" button and "Download Zip", and extract it to your data folder which is usually c:/users/(your username)/Battlescribe/data
When making a new roster the drop down will let you pick he current 8th edition.
Those files seem to be all modified about a month ago, are you sure they are for 8th?
Ah its on a different branch, never mind me.
Different branch? What?
(I'm also having trouble trying to get the 8th ed stuff to come up on battlescribe)
Still only getting 7th ed from the drop down.
A different branch in git. If you click the branch button there, there are some 8th candidates there, I tried the one called 40k8e something, the FOC info seems messed up, but I can click around and add forces, points seem right
Automatically Appended Next Post: Branch button in github that is
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding praetorians, they are still immune to morale, which is nice. Might result in enemies targeting other units for the battleshock bonus.
I'm liking a fun but expensive combo of the deceiver and a 10 strong squad of Praetorians moved in grand illusion and just lock down a whole flank or backfield. Neither need buffs and both are independent fast moving attack units.
This is probably answered already, but can you shoot at a character behind a unit that is in melee? Or is it still protected from that even though I cannot shoot at the unit in cc with my non pistol weapons?
buddha wrote: I'm liking a fun but expensive combo of the deceiver and a 10 strong squad of Praetorians moved in grand illusion and just lock down a whole flank or backfield. Neither need buffs and both are independent fast moving attack units.
The really nice thing about the Deceiver's redeploy is that it happens before the first turn, meaning you already know who is going first and if a Seize happens. Lots of options for that.
torblind wrote: C'Tan powers on characters, was that undecided? It's not a shooting attack with a weapon, but also psychic powers have the same limitation
It looks like the C'Tan can use his power even when he is in close combat.
He has permission to use his power in the shooting phase but its not a shooting weapon.
Basically works like a psychic power that cannot be denied in the shooting phase.
usernamesareannoying wrote: How do you guys deal with necrons general lack of range? Almost everything seems to be range 24".
How about armies with lots of armor?
The few things that we have seem to be in ones and twos, nothing we can spam like guard for instance.
Personally I never found Necrons to be short on range: 24 inches is medium range, and the battlefield has a 24 inch no man's land.
Might take some time to close in on something that's doing it's level best to hide, but advancing and agressively seizing board control generally works out pretty well almost regardless of specific list composition.
Just watched the twich battle between Reece's IG and frankies's Necrons.... it was bad. Like 7th necrons vs scat bikes bad. Total blowout.
After the game they just talked about how even though Reece played with bad tactics (not shooting down units to deny reanimation) there was no way. "Soo ummm what if you brought more destroyers?" Angry pause "They are too expensive to take more of"
Also a mass of warriors with all the buffs for melee (Szeras +1 to attack and Anrakyr 1+ to attack) can not take a single unit of Bulgrin.
Pyrothem wrote: Just watched the twich battle between Reece's IG and frankies's Necrons.... it was bad. Like 7th necrons vs scat bikes bad. Total blowout.
After the game they just talked about how even though Reece played with bad tactics (not shooting down units to deny reanimation) there was no way. "Soo ummm what if you brought more destroyers?" Angry pause "They are too expensive to take more of"
Also a mass of warriors with all the buffs for melee (Szeras +1 to attack and Anrakyr 1+ to attack) can not take a single unit of Bulgrin.
can't seem to find it, where is it?
Also why two special characters? Another is that heavy destroyers aren't expensive it's 225 for 3, which is what you would pay for a dev squad but they work better and are tougher. I really have to see this batrep.
*Edit* found it, what the feth was with that list, three special characters and a crpytek, that's almost a third his points. That list didn't lose a fight it was stillborn.
He spent 595(!) points in characters, skimped on his heavy destroyers, didn't take any other destroyers, dropped 480 points on warriors, didn't support his flayed ones, his list was beyond crap.
That IG list is no pushover though, a basalisk specifically is really really bad for us if we can't get something to the back line to force it into falling back over and over. It wipes out whole heavy destroyer units and does just low enough damage to dodge most QS saves. It feels almost like a mistake that it rolls 2 and picks the highest for number of hits, i'd think an indirect weapon would roll 2 and pick the lowest to sim the wider scatter rules it used to have.
And the whole 6 chimeras 2 bane wolfs and 3 sentinels rushing down with heavy flamers and backed by characters with power weapons is really weird for IG, you have to treat them like orks and backpedal but the more you do that the further you get from the artillery and objectives.
Pyrothem wrote: Just watched the twich battle between Reece's IG and frankies's Necrons.... it was bad. Like 7th necrons vs scat bikes bad. Total blowout.
After the game they just talked about how even though Reece played with bad tactics (not shooting down units to deny reanimation) there was no way. "Soo ummm what if you brought more destroyers?" Angry pause "They are too expensive to take more of"
Also a mass of warriors with all the buffs for melee (Szeras +1 to attack and Anrakyr 1+ to attack) can not take a single unit of Bulgrin.
Its almost as if playing 8th ed like 7th and making a special character deathstar is a bad idea Bullgrins are CC heavies. Warriors are not. Are you really that surprised?
The necron list wasn't great.
It was a bad list for sure, but even still. Okay, save ~300 points on characters, take 4 more heavy destroyers... does that even change the outcome? The majority of units will still be dead turn 2, but instead of having characters left, you get 4 lascannons which die in the next turn. This is pretty much why I complained when the indices first came out - if someone takes a bunch of tanks, we just don't have the tools to deal with it. As ridiculous as it sounds, mass lasguns are better against tanks point for point than Necron Warriors. Now sure, you won't take that many lasguns in reality, but that's because you get actual special weapons and vehicles to help out.
I don't think we can write any list which beats Reece's one in that battle. I guess we're just stuck waiting for the codex.
Conspiracy theory, I think Frankie was told to make a low horsepower necron lists because they weren't sure if the IG list was going to work. So reece comes out with this over the top weird IG lists, and absolutely whoops frankie's softball list. That's why he was so pissed at the end when Reece was talking about what he could have done better. No one could have seen that list and thought it would knock over a sand castle.
Eyjio wrote: It was a bad list for sure, but even still. Okay, save ~300 points on characters, take 4 more heavy destroyers... does that even change the outcome? The majority of units will still be dead turn 2, but instead of having characters left, you get 4 lascannons which die in the next turn. This is pretty much why I complained when the indices first came out - if someone takes a bunch of tanks, we just don't have the tools to deal with it. As ridiculous as it sounds, mass lasguns are better against tanks point for point than Necron Warriors. Now sure, you won't take that many lasguns in reality, but that's because you get actual special weapons and vehicles to help out.
I don't think we can write any list which beats Reece's one in that battle. I guess we're just stuck waiting for the codex.
Not just characters. I would drop the flayed ones as well. He's paying 420 points on them.
Well i wouldn't call it all doom and gloom, yet. In this particular case franky set up under the assumption he would get first turn and probably pop 2 or 3 chimeras with his full model strength buffed units then be able to deal with the IG having a staggered or slowed advance but he set up pretty much all the way forward with only his heavy destroyers in cover, so getting his initiative seized on was a pretty horrific way to start no matter what his list looked like.
Eyjio wrote: It was a bad list for sure, but even still. Okay, save ~300 points on characters, take 4 more heavy destroyers... does that even change the outcome? The majority of units will still be dead turn 2, but instead of having characters left, you get 4 lascannons which die in the next turn. This is pretty much why I complained when the indices first came out - if someone takes a bunch of tanks, we just don't have the tools to deal with it. As ridiculous as it sounds, mass lasguns are better against tanks point for point than Necron Warriors. Now sure, you won't take that many lasguns in reality, but that's because you get actual special weapons and vehicles to help out.
I don't think we can write any list which beats Reece's one in that battle. I guess we're just stuck waiting for the codex.
We agree that more heavy destroyers might not have made much difference, but I think we disagree on the source of the problem for his list. Aside from the massive screw up with the characters, lack of mobility is what killed him. He made an entirely footslogging army with no mobility boosters in there, If he had brought a deceiver or a monolith, he could have shut Frankie's back line down.
Didn't see the game, but the cron list triggered me.
Way too HQ heavy, and didnt support his troops properly. No GA for the warrior blobs, no MWBD for the tesla, no D/lord for the HD's.
A monolith would have been good, deepstriking midfield and reigning fire down upon the back line would be a good distraction carnifex while the rest of the army positions.
A deciever blinking up the monolith, which then gates some scytheguard would be able to shut down the backline, Expensive but easily doable while still keeping the phalanx style list.
Played a game against another Necron player. I brought ~20 Scarabs, some Wraiths, Nightbringer, a DArk, 3 Heavies, some Charactets, and 30 Immortals. He had lots of vehicles - 3 ABarges, 2 Ghost Arks with Warriors (did the Understrength thjng to carry Overlords) a Stalker, and 2 Night Scythes, and some Immortals.
Vehicle Spam is a lot of wounds to chew through, and the Arks and Barges Fly, so they always get their guns until they die. I don't even think it's half bad, unless the game turns into pure spam of high S low D shooting, but as long as Lascannons and Krak missiles are en vogue (so to speak), QS is pretty cool.
I lost by a narrow margin (would have won on turn 5 or 6, went to 7), but honestly I could barely kill anything. Wraiths are still just not killy, and now with the Scarab revalation I really don't see why to take them over their younger siblings. As much as I'm loathe to admit it, I think the C'tan is probably too expensive. For 230, I really want more impact on the game. D6 good shots and a solid melee profile isn't bad, it's just not the army clearer I would expect it to be. Though I'm probably too aggressive in my use, getting him out alone without a bodyguard.
I'm starting to feel a bit glum about Crons. We retained the old problem of not being able to kill anything, but lost the gimmick of never dying. New RP is great in theory, but in practice I'm not really feeling it.
Haven't tried Destroyers yet, maybe I'll feel a bit better once I give them a spin, but it's not looking amazing.
I'm starting to feel a bit glum about Crons. We retained the old problem of not being able to kill anything, but lost the gimmick of never dying. New RP is great in theory, but in practice I'm not really feeling it.
Haven't tried Destroyers yet, maybe I'll feel a bit better once I give them a spin, but it's not looking amazing.
I feel the same way. Necrons just don't seem good on the table now compared to what anyone else can bring. We've been forced into one viable build with a handful of units and the rest of our units are trash.
RP was strongest in 5th imo. It was a proper RP, not FNP on steroids, and you can do at the end of every phase, and as such not worry too much about a squad wipe before you get a chance to roll. What really hurts necrons is their lack of mobility and heavy anti-vehicle options; they used to be able to just teleport anywhere on the table, and they can't do that. Warscythes used to just wreck vehicles, and now they are below average at it. Compared to the other indexes necrons look a bit weak, imo. I wouldn't say unplayable, because you can do some stuff, but they are sorely lacking in what they used to be able to do. Its reminding me a little of 4th- pre5th ed codex, when the necrons weren't quite suitable for the edition they were in compared to anyone else, and tended to fall behind.
Its still early though, so maybe after a few FAQs and Erratas they'll be better. Hopefully we'll get our missing traditional equipment in the codex.
About C'tan - have you considered screening him with scarabs? C'tan are characters now, which means they can't be targeted unless they are the closest unit. So get a cheap, fast unit to put in front of it and it should be save from shooting for a couple of turns.
I dunno, Necrons seem quite internally balanced against themselves, the real issue is that we just don't have the power to do anything. I can understand why - it would be obnoxious to face an army which was both very durable and very good at shooting - but I think the mark was missed by quite a margin. Even something like "Gauss weapons do 1 additional damage against units with the vehicle keyword" would help immeasurably. If we can't have melta or plasma and our lascannon equivalent is 75 points minimum, then warriors and Immortals have to be much, much better against big units. Can you imagine facing a nid monster mash? That's got to be close to a 95% loss match up at least. Meanwhile, guard are bringing 20+ plasma guns to every game, DE can melt anything with a dozen dark lances, etc.
It takes 432 Gauss Flayer shots, or 162 Gauss Blaster shots to kill one knight. Even in rapid fire, that's 2539 points of Warriors or 1539 points of Immortals, all of which have to get within 12", not die and then all target the single model. Of course, you could always take heavy destroyers - you only need 20 of those, a snip at 1500 points. Meanwhile, if they ever hit combat you basically just lose. It's not even like Knights are the toughest units in the game to kill. Meanwhile, Knights with Gatling+BC kill ~8.2 warriors a turn (plus another 1.5 expected from morale) or ~6.5 Immortals per turn with distance shooting (~9.7 warriors, +3.2 from morale or 7.6 immortals, +1.1 from morale if you include the heavy flamer); in combat it kills another ~5.6 warriors or 4.4 Immortals, which auto wipes maxed units. Considering all the fluff is about how deadly Necron guns are against tanks, it's absurd that we're beaten by lasgun fire and can't ever realistically kill anything with T6+ W6+.
It seems pretty clear that we weren't tested particularly thoroughly. Hope the codex is better; in the meantime I'm just going to play my nids instead as they're substantially better in every way.
I actually suspect that GW heard of people bitching about 7th ed necrons all the time, so they over nerfed them. That or they got someone who hates necrons to playtest them. I wonder if there's a feedback place that GW looks at now and then. If its still looking bleak we may have to do some bitching.
My initial excitement for necrons has dipped so much after watching battle reports. RP is not great but combined with low damage output overall my hope for competitive necrons is waning.
Yeah, the early reports are pretty bleak. I saw one which was necrons vs ad mech. Those Neutron Blasters just melted the destroyers, monolith and did a number on the warriors as well, and they were using them weaker than they have should have. They did forget command points, but it probably wouldn't have mattered.
Necrons had amazing internal balance in 7th, with the signature durability to make up for their lack of (insert weakness here). And even then, in 7th we had mobility (Night Scythes, teleporting, wraiths, tomb blades, JSJ destroyers, CCBs), and we had decent firepower (cheap, durable destroyers with a formation and tons of gauss).
Now we are no more durable than anyone else, and our only hard hitting units are too expensive. We also lost mobility (Necrons might as well not have transports), and a lot of our cool wargear is now gone. And internal balance? Hah. 3 A Barges is better than an Obelisk any day of the week, and the monolith and T Vault are still gak. The flyers are subpar, praetorians are inferior to wraiths again, Spyders are borderline useless, and half of our named characters still won't see the light of day (I won't even bring up the CCB and the atrocity there of). We have been forced into infantry blobs with a few particular support characters and maybe a few elite units and vehicles. Half our book might as well not exist.
Immortal spam funnily enough seems like the most damaging build. S5 AP-2 or Tesla is very strong, and they're still cheap enough to be spammed without it feeling too limiting. For the price of one Destroyer, you can get 3, nearly 4 Immortals. Sure, its slightly worse AP and they're slower, but the damage about equals out at long range and the Immortals smoke them with Rapid Fire.
I'm gonna try Scarab/Immortal/Night Scythe/Heavy Destroyers next. Not giving up, just feeling... Less enthused than previously. Still have my AoS army at least.
Everything else kind of ranges from "okay" to "bad"
(I'm still not sure if Flayed Ones fit into the above list)
How Night Scythe? Unless I'm missing some key thing that makes them good, well, they're not good.
For the price, they're probably our best vehicle. Good shooting, good defenses, can't be locked down. Not... the most feared unit in the game, but pretty ok. Doubling the shots was a huge buff as was starting on the table and the defense buff.
Ghost Arks with 10 Warriors don't seem too bad. I want to try them more.
Now that I think of it, doomsday arks are probably our best combat vehicle. For only 203 points you get a T6 14W quantum shielded vehicle with a gun that hurts most vehicles on a 3+, can deal multiple wounds and comes with some anti-infantry weapons. Its slightly more cost effective than destroyers. Unlike last edition, its weaker profile is actually somewhat decent.
Requizen wrote: Ghost Arks with 10 Warriors don't seem too bad. I want to try them more.
If they fix the entry to give them open topped (to allow the occupants to fire out), then yes, I'd be interested, too. But as is *shrug*.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Now that I think of it, doomsday arks are probably our best combat vehicle.
For only 203 points you get a T6 14W quantum shielded vehicle with a gun that hurts most vehicles on a 3+, can deal multiple wounds and comes with some anti-infantry weapons.
Its slightly more cost effective than destroyers.
Still not sure on this one, myself.
Doomsday seems like it's better against key big things, but the equivalent points in Heavy D's can target more things at once.
I wanna see the mathhammer on it again.
Both on offence and durability.
Everything else kind of ranges from "okay" to "bad"
(I'm still not sure if Flayed Ones fit into the above list)
How Night Scythe? Unless I'm missing some key thing that makes them good, well, they're not good.
For the price, they're probably our best vehicle. Good shooting, good defenses, can't be locked down. Not... the most feared unit in the game, but pretty ok. Doubling the shots was a huge buff as was starting on the table and the defense buff.
Ghost Arks with 10 Warriors don't seem too bad. I want to try them more.
But it's a glorified A Barge. For 20ish points cheaper, you could get an A Barge with not as fast, but over all better maneuverability, and more Tesla Shots. And Quantum Shielding. The Hard to Hit rule really does not do a whole lot.
And 10 warriors in a ghost ark is wasting points on 10 warriors. They won't utilize RP due to squad size, and they can't shoot out of it. Ghost arks and Night Scythes aren't realistically transports anymore.
Requizen wrote: Ghost Arks with 10 Warriors don't seem too bad. I want to try them more.
If they fix the entry to give them open topped (to allow the occupants to fire out), then yes, I'd be interested, too. But as is *shrug*.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Now that I think of it, doomsday arks are probably our best combat vehicle. For only 203 points you get a T6 14W quantum shielded vehicle with a gun that hurts most vehicles on a 3+, can deal multiple wounds and comes with some anti-infantry weapons. Its slightly more cost effective than destroyers.
Still not sure on this one, myself. Doomsday seems like it's better against key big things, but the equivalent points in Heavy D's can target more things at once. I wanna see the mathhammer on it again. Both on offence and durability.
But why would you want to split targets with Heavy Ds? Most vehicles have 6+ wounds, so its going to take multiple heavies to destroy one vehicle. Spitting fire just isn't efficient. The equivalent points of heavies is actually 2. A 3rd one is 22 points more expensive than a D ark. You can at most deal 18 damage with a trio. Which isn't bad, mind you.
However, with a D ark you can deal at most - 9 damage with a mobile main gun + 10 damage from the flayers (long) / 20 damage (short) = 19-29 damage or 18 damage with a stationary main + 10 damage from the flayers (long) / 20 damage (short) = 28-38 damage You can deal more potential damage with the ark than the destroyers at relatively less points, complete with living metal, QS, higher toughness and even more wounds. The only real downsides are that it suffers a -1 to hit if it moves with the main gun and that it has a 4+ save, and doesn't quite perform as well against heavy armor saves due to the poor pen stat on the mobile gun.
That's not to say destroyers are terrible. You do have a higher chance of hitting with them, they benefit from the D Lord buff and they have higher pen. Its just that they aren't quite as cost effective as the d ark, which can deal greater potential damage.
I would actually field both destroyers and the d ark, as they both cover each other's weaknesses; the d ark is relatively tougher and has better anti-infantry capabilities and decent anti-armor capabilities, whilst the destroyers are more accurate, buffable, mobile and can deal with heavy armor a little better.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Now that I think of it, doomsday arks are probably our best combat vehicle.
For only 203 points you get a T6 14W quantum shielded vehicle with a gun that hurts most vehicles on a 3+, can deal multiple wounds and comes with some anti-infantry weapons.
Its slightly more cost effective than destroyers.
Unlike last edition, its weaker profile is actually somewhat decent.
I agree. I'm tempted to try them over heavy destroyers
Both pretty close equivalent in points, both look like pretty decent damage "formations" with accompanying force multipliers.
Which one works out best for offensive output? (and durability, too)
Could probably give the Destroyer Lord a Warscythe for even closer point equivalency, but his wound reroll ability only applies in the shooting phase, so I like the idea of keeping that applicable to him.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Now that I think of it, doomsday arks are probably our best combat vehicle.
For only 203 points you get a T6 14W quantum shielded vehicle with a gun that hurts most vehicles on a 3+, can deal multiple wounds and comes with some anti-infantry weapons.
Its slightly more cost effective than destroyers.
Unlike last edition, its weaker profile is actually somewhat decent.
I agree. I'm tempted to try them over heavy destroyers
Me too, mines getting painted up now.
That coupled with a stalker? Two lots of long range high strength that gives destroyers reroll to the ark? Yes please
Klowny wrote: twin arks and a stalker cheaper than 6 HD? I like this
That's 6 HDs + D.Lord.
(could always drop him for an additional 2 HDs (bumps price up to 600, still relatively close to the 2xDDA + HGC Stalker), but maybe rerolling 1s to wound on the other 6 might be the better investment? Someone would need to crunch the numbers)
Both pretty close equivalent in points, both look like pretty decent damage "formations" with accompanying force multipliers.
Which one works out best for offensive output? (and durability, too)
Well, in terms of durability the Doomsdays are probably better due to the sheer amount of wounds. You're looking at 28 wounds as opposed to 18. in terms of potential damage once again the dooms days have more, as you're looking at most something like 76 damage + 12 from the heavy gauss, as opposed to 36 potentional damage. However, keep in mind that the heavy D's are all carrying around heavy gauss, which would mean that most of that damage will get through in practice, especially if targeting a vehicle. The flayers, at least, can be used effectively against infantry which does give the D arks a bit of an edge.
In terms of offensive output though, against a vehicle - Both formations wound on a 3+ (most vehicles have T6-T7 nowadays. Against T8 the destroyers fair better UNLESS the D Ark is immobile) Assuming immobile - The D Arks can deal up to 36 wounds + 12 from the THGC. Armor is irrevelent due to -5 pen Assuming mobile - The D arks can deal up to 18 + 12. Armor will affect damage output the Arks benefit from rerolls in all cases.
Destroyers don't care if mobile or not, so it will always be a max potential of 36 wounds. They only get rerolls in case of a 1, but they also get rerolls to wound in case of a one, which does mean that more of the 36 wounds get through. Slightly less armor pen, but then again it doesn't matter because most targets will have a 3+ save.
So its a toss up. If you can keep them still D Arks + stalker slightly outdamages the destroyers against heavy targets. If not the destroyers fair better against vehicles. Keep in mind though that in all cases, immobile or not, the D arks will always have better anti-infantry capability due to the flayers and have a greater wound pool. Destroyers + lord are better in cc though, but why would you want them there? Once again, I would actually field both as they compliment each other.
I've played 3 games and I've won three games, none of them have been cakewalks but I've never felt outmatched. Still the plural of anecdote isn't data, so I'm willing to accept that my experiences might not be typical. It's weird being in the minority, but I accept my opinions are less likely to be true because of that.
Grimgold wrote: I've played 3 games and I've won three games, none of them have been cakewalks but I've never felt outmatched. Still the plural of anecdote isn't data, so I'm willing to accept that my experiences might not be typical. It's weird being in the minority, but I accept my opinions are less likely to be true because of that.
9*3 Scarabs ahs Shield and annoying melee force / objetive grapbbers and so on. You know what our little bugs do ;-).
30 Immortals with Testla. Too good to pass on. This is my "mass" shooting.
Anakyr (+1 Attack Aura and buff for Immortals of +1 shooting)
Overlord with Scythe (also buff + shooting)
Orikan (later Melee monster, but mostly for 5+ save and buff on RP)
5 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer: 6 Models with many wounds, so I am hoping on RP nd saves here. They will follow Orikan behind the Immortals and the Scarabs.
3* Heavy Destroyers: Will sit in cover on an objective. Hopefolly save....
My biggest concern is my missing melee power and that I ahve no way to keep the destroyers alive. As opponent I would target them as quick as possible, becaue the other models of the army iwll not mean much trouble.
So I am also thinking on taking 2 Doomsday Arcs + Stalker. Then I have one large infantry Bubble with my HQs (and buffs) and the vehicles that just stay back and shoot as long as posisble.
Just how requisite IS a D. Lord for Destroyer shooting?
Is rerolling 1s to wound worth the 142 points?
If so, should he go with regulars or Heavies? (if you have separate Fast and Heavy slot units... though I guess you could space them out like:
.........................Des...........................................
....HDs....D.L........................................Enemy....
.........................Des...........................................
So he can still buff them both).
Yes, he's a "fast combat guy", but sticking him with anything else kinda feels like a waste of his only buff.
Grimgold wrote: I've played 3 games and I've won three games, none of them have been cakewalks but I've never felt outmatched. Still the plural of anecdote isn't data, so I'm willing to accept that my experiences might not be typical. It's weird being in the minority, but I accept my opinions are less likely to be true because of that.
Lists and opponents? I would like some good news.
Blood angels and super annoying tau with this list:
As I said none of them were cakewalks, but I didn't feel outmanned in any of the battles. Also Reece from FLG dropped by to comment on the second list after I commented on Frankie's list from that batrep, I might have been a tad over the top (I said there was a better chance of the game gettign called on account of earhtquake than frankie reaching Reece's backline), but he was super cool.
The Tau was so frustrating I didn't bother taking pictures or notes, I beat him 7 to 4 on points but the game got called before I could finish him off. The dark angels brought a mix of different units trying things out, so might not have been the best list possible for dark angels, it was actually the most enjoyable as there was a lot of back and fourth. No pictures of that one as it was using my house terrain, which is not great.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, I wonder how equivalent points would fare without their force multipliers?
8 HDs = 600 (no rerolling 1s to wound)
3 DDAs = 606 (no rerolling 1s to hit)
(a little over a quarter of your points is not a ridiculous number to spend on the heavy slot, right?)
Put a Lord/Cryptek with the 3 DDAs and you can field them as a Spearhead Detachment to get an Extra CP. 700pts or less doesn't sound to bad for 3 high-damage high-AP models.
Could try DS them via the Deceiver (if you field one).you get lucky with his DS rolls. 3 DDA behind my enemies units does not sound like a fun time for my enemy.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, I wonder how equivalent points would fare without their force multipliers?
8 HDs = 600 (no rerolling 1s to wound)
3 DDAs = 606 (no rerolling 1s to hit)
(a little over a quarter of your points is not a ridiculous number to spend on the heavy slot, right?)
The DDA still outperform the HDs in term of wounds and potential damage. Its also overkill
Alright, quick notes about the HD vs DArk conversation since I have meetings and can't totally catch up:
-Each Ark averages 2 shots per big gun since they're D3. Comparing max damage to max damage is not average
-Moving makes the big gun trash. Even with the stalker to reroll 1s, you're a 200 point model that's getting a couple shots on 4s, and that's bad.
-The damage is only "higher" than equivalent points of HDs if you have the Flayers in range
The game is objective based. You can reasonably expect there to be one in your DZ, but if you're sitting back, your Flayers won't be in range for a good portion of the game I'd wager. If you move up, the Destroyers are better since their guns don't suck on the move. They also are better in combat. And if you get charged and want to fall back and shoot, the DArk's gun sucks again.
On a "firing range", the DArks are probably better. In practicality, it's a lot closer.
skoffs wrote: Just how requisite IS a D. Lord for Destroyer shooting? Is rerolling 1s to wound worth the 142 points? If so, should he go with regulars or Heavies? (if you have separate Fast and Heavy slot units... though I guess you could space them out like: .........................Des........................................... ....HDs....D.L........................................Enemy.... .........................Des...........................................
So he can still buff them both).
Yes, he's a "fast combat guy", but sticking him with anything else kinda feels like a waste of his only buff.
Honestly, its not absolutely mandatory, but its nice to have because it might turn a disaster into victory. I think I said somewhere before in this thread that if you take a D Lord you should take destroyers, but you don't really have to take a D Lord if you're taking destroyers.
Grimgold wrote: I've played 3 games and I've won three games, none of them have been cakewalks but I've never felt outmatched. Still the plural of anecdote isn't data, so I'm willing to accept that my experiences might not be typical. It's weird being in the minority, but I accept my opinions are less likely to be true because of that.
Lists and opponents? I would like some good news.
Blood angels and super annoying tau with this list:
As I said none of them were cakewalks, but I didn't feel outmanned in any of the battles. Also Reece from FLG dropped by to comment on the second list after I commented on Frankie's list from that batrep, I might have been a tad over the top (I said there was a better chance of the game gettign called on account of earhtquake than frankie reaching Reece's backline), but he was super cool.
The Tau was so frustrating I didn't bother taking pictures or notes, I beat him 7 to 4 on points but the game got called before I could finish him off. The dark angels brought a mix of different units trying things out, so might not have been the best list possible for dark angels, it was actually the most enjoyable as there was a lot of back and fourth. No pictures of that one as it was using my house terrain, which is not great.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, I wonder how equivalent points would fare without their force multipliers?
8 HDs = 600 (no rerolling 1s to wound)
3 DDAs = 606 (no rerolling 1s to hit)
(a little over a quarter of your points is not a ridiculous number to spend on the heavy slot, right?)
The DDA still outperform the HDs in term of wounds and potential damage. Its also overkill
Alright, quick notes about the HD vs DArk conversation since I have meetings and can't totally catch up:
-Each Ark averages 2 shots per big gun since they're D3. Comparing max damage to max damage is not average
-Moving makes the big gun trash. Even with the stalker to reroll 1s, you're a 200 point model that's getting a couple shots on 4s, and that's bad.
-The damage is only "higher" than equivalent points of HDs if you have the Flayers in range
The game is objective based. You can reasonably expect there to be one in your DZ, but if you're sitting back, your Flayers won't be in range for a good portion of the game I'd wager. If you move up, the Destroyers are better since their guns don't suck on the move. They also are better in combat. And if you get charged and want to fall back and shoot, the DArk's gun sucks again.
On a "firing range", the DArks are probably better. In practicality, it's a lot closer.
The main isn't trash on the move though. Its still wounding most vehicles on a 3+. What does get affected is the pen (-2, reduces most vehicle saves to 5+), damage (D3, not terrible) and accuracy (yeah, 4+ isn't great)
Its not amazing, but its not terrible either.
8 HDs
vs
6 HDs + D.L
vs
3 DDAs vs
2 DDAs + HGC Stalker
They're all close to the same cost.
I honestly can't tell what setup would be the scariest to play against.
If we were going to mix them (assuming that would be the best option for a TAC build), what would be the best combo of units? (say for around 500-600 points)
skoffs wrote: Hmm, I wonder how equivalent points would fare without their force multipliers?
8 HDs = 600 (no rerolling 1s to wound)
3 DDAs = 606 (no rerolling 1s to hit)
(a little over a quarter of your points is not a ridiculous number to spend on the heavy slot, right?)
The DDA still outperform the HDs in term of wounds and potential damage. Its also overkill
Alright, quick notes about the HD vs DArk conversation since I have meetings and can't totally catch up:
-Each Ark averages 2 shots per big gun since they're D3. Comparing max damage to max damage is not average
-Moving makes the big gun trash. Even with the stalker to reroll 1s, you're a 200 point model that's getting a couple shots on 4s, and that's bad.
-The damage is only "higher" than equivalent points of HDs if you have the Flayers in range
The game is objective based. You can reasonably expect there to be one in your DZ, but if you're sitting back, your Flayers won't be in range for a good portion of the game I'd wager. If you move up, the Destroyers are better since their guns don't suck on the move. They also are better in combat. And if you get charged and want to fall back and shoot, the DArk's gun sucks again.
On a "firing range", the DArks are probably better. In practicality, it's a lot closer.
The main isn't trash on the move though. Its still wounding most vehicles on a 3+. What does get affected is the pen (-2, reduces most vehicle saves to 5+), damage (D3, not terrible) and accuracy (yeah, 4+ isn't great)
Its not amazing, but its not terrible either.
A 200 point gun (because let's face it, the big gun is the only one we really care about) that averages 2 shots that hit on 4s isn't good. At all. When it sits still it's great, but hitting on 4s is bad. Look at the Monolith - the Particle Whip is nearly the same (slightly weaker but double the max shots, triple the average), and it hits on 4s. Everyone agrees it's not worth taking.
8 HDs
vs
6 HDs + D.L
vs
3 DDAs vs
2 DDAs + HGC Stalker
They're all close to the same cost.
I honestly can't tell what setup would be the scariest to play against.
If we were going to mix them (assuming that would be the best option for a TAC build), what would be the best combo of units? (say for around 500-600 points)
I like the idea of;
1 DDA + 2 groups of 3 HDs or 2 DDA + 1 3HDs.
There both expensive at over 630-660pts but I feel like its a lot of fire-power for the points.
8 HDs
vs
6 HDs + D.L
vs
3 DDAs vs
2 DDAs + HGC Stalker
They're all close to the same cost.
I honestly can't tell what setup would be the scariest to play against.
If we were going to mix them (assuming that would be the best option for a TAC build), what would be the best combo of units? (say for around 500-600 points)
I like the idea of;
1 DDA + 2 groups of 3 HDs or 2 DDA + 1 3HDs.
There both expensive at over 630-660pts but I feel like its a lot of fire-power for the points.
I wanna run DDA, they will last longer. Remember, the gun has the whole board range, so it will be camped back shooting all game, not moving. It can be screened if need be, protected from charge. I think 2xDDA and a stalker is better than 3x DDA, just as it gives more tactical flexibility because the stalkers buff can be applied to any unit, allowing the smaller guns more damage.
8 HDs
vs
6 HDs + D.L
vs
3 DDAs vs
2 DDAs + HGC Stalker
They're all close to the same cost.
I honestly can't tell what setup would be the scariest to play against.
If we were going to mix them (assuming that would be the best option for a TAC build), what would be the best combo of units? (say for around 500-600 points)
I like the idea of;
1 DDA + 2 groups of 3 HDs or 2 DDA + 1 3HDs.
There both expensive at over 630-660pts but I feel like its a lot of fire-power for the points.
I'd go with 1 DDA + 2x3 HD
The reasoning being that you can flank with the HD more easily.
That way you can keep up a steady rate of AT fire even if you're forced to move the DDA to acquire new heavy targets.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, I wonder how equivalent points would fare without their force multipliers?
8 HDs = 600 (no rerolling 1s to wound)
3 DDAs = 606 (no rerolling 1s to hit)
(a little over a quarter of your points is not a ridiculous number to spend on the heavy slot, right?)
The DDA still outperform the HDs in term of wounds and potential damage. Its also overkill
Alright, quick notes about the HD vs DArk conversation since I have meetings and can't totally catch up:
-Each Ark averages 2 shots per big gun since they're D3. Comparing max damage to max damage is not average
-Moving makes the big gun trash. Even with the stalker to reroll 1s, you're a 200 point model that's getting a couple shots on 4s, and that's bad.
-The damage is only "higher" than equivalent points of HDs if you have the Flayers in range
The game is objective based. You can reasonably expect there to be one in your DZ, but if you're sitting back, your Flayers won't be in range for a good portion of the game I'd wager. If you move up, the Destroyers are better since their guns don't suck on the move. They also are better in combat. And if you get charged and want to fall back and shoot, the DArk's gun sucks again.
On a "firing range", the DArks are probably better. In practicality, it's a lot closer.
The main isn't trash on the move though. Its still wounding most vehicles on a 3+. What does get affected is the pen (-2, reduces most vehicle saves to 5+), damage (D3, not terrible) and accuracy (yeah, 4+ isn't great)
Its not amazing, but its not terrible either.
A 200 point gun (because let's face it, the big gun is the only one we really care about) that averages 2 shots that hit on 4s isn't good. At all. When it sits still it's great, but hitting on 4s is bad. Look at the Monolith - the Particle Whip is nearly the same (slightly weaker but double the max shots, triple the average), and it hits on 4s. Everyone agrees it's not worth taking.
It hits on 3s if it is not moving and with Q shield the stuff it wants to pop has a hard time hitting back. The HDestroyers are just +3 and melt to any consentrated fire. Max squads of HDestroyers might give you a chance to rez but against a competent opponent I would not count on it.
yea i cant see comparable points worth of HD's survive anywhere near as long as DDA's. They might put out more hurt in one volley, but over a game, take a lot more concentrated fire to kill the arks.
Dew wrote: And at 72" they can hit anything anytime. Never have to worry about surving long enough to get into rang to shoot back.
Damn I might have to get a DDArk now... I hate painting those things lol
I mean, yeah, unless you play with any sort of LOS blocking terrain, which the Heavies can move to see around and the DArk can't. Or if they charge the DArk. Or if the mission needs you to move out of the back of your deployment zone.
Again, DArk very much wins in a shooting gallery. But that's not winning the game most of the time.
Dew wrote: And at 72" they can hit anything anytime. Never have to worry about surving long enough to get into rang to shoot back.
Damn I might have to get a DDArk now... I hate painting those things lol
I mean, yeah, unless you play with any sort of LOS blocking terrain, which the Heavies can move to see around and the DArk can't. Or if they charge the DArk. Or if the mission needs you to move out of the back of your deployment zone.
Again, DArk very much wins in a shooting gallery. But that's not winning the game most of the time.
Remember the DArk got a massive buff with no facing. As long a just a bit of the Ark sticks out fire at will!
I wanna run DDA, they will last longer. Remember, the gun has the whole board range, so it will be camped back shooting all game, not moving. It can be screened if need be, protected from charge. I think 2xDDA and a stalker is better than 3x DDA, just as it gives more tactical flexibility because the stalkers buff can be applied to any unit, allowing the smaller guns more damage.
True it will last longer but HD still get RP and come back full wounds.
If i'm gonna run DDA (and i really want to) I would field Scarabs with them and surround the DDA with them so if it gets shot at the scarabs would be shot 1st due to them being closer giving the DDA at least a turn of not being hit or damaged.
DDA + 3-6 scarabs and a Sypder could be a good combo as the DDA will be not be hit-able and the Sypder will make sure my wall of scarabs stay up. Also, the Sypder can heal D3 wounds to the DDA if equipped with FC if snipped.
CthululsSpy
I was thinking that. Maybe 3×2 HD would be good as more movement for flanking and more targets for my opponent to sink shots into.
-off topic-
If we Deepstrike a DDA does that count as moving? So say I used the Deceiver to DS a DDA from my side of the table to my opponents. Do we attack at full power or low power? It technically isn't moving as it is being teleported but I am unsure to what happens
Dew wrote: And at 72" they can hit anything anytime. Never have to worry about surving long enough to get into rang to shoot back.
Damn I might have to get a DDArk now... I hate painting those things lol
I mean, yeah, unless you play with any sort of LOS blocking terrain, which the Heavies can move to see around and the DArk can't. Or if they charge the DArk. Or if the mission needs you to move out of the back of your deployment zone.
Again, DArk very much wins in a shooting gallery. But that's not winning the game most of the time.
If they charge the D Ark it can disengage and drown them in flayer fire and hit them with the main cannon. The best thing about necron vehicles is that they can all fly. Well, except for the stalker anyway
If i'm gonna run DDA (and i really want to) I would field Scarabs with them and surround the DDA with them so if it gets shot at the scarabs would be shot 1st due to them being closer giving the DDA at least a turn of not being hit or damaged.
Why would the scarabs be shot 1st due to being closer?
If i'm gonna run DDA (and i really want to) I would field Scarabs with them and surround the DDA with them so if it gets shot at the scarabs would be shot 1st due to them being closer giving the DDA at least a turn of not being hit or damaged.
Why would the scarabs be shot 1st due to being closer?
Yeah, DDAs aren't characters mate. The shoot at closest thing is a character rule, not a scarab rule.
If i'm gonna run DDA (and i really want to) I would field Scarabs with them and surround the DDA with them so if it gets shot at the scarabs would be shot 1st due to them being closer giving the DDA at least a turn of not being hit or damaged.
Why would the scarabs be shot 1st due to being closer?
They would not work like that, can't hide a vehicle behind units (this is why the ccb is garbage) but you can screen charges and with good placing stop drops from being in melta range.
If i'm gonna run DDA (and i really want to) I would field Scarabs with them and surround the DDA with them so if it gets shot at the scarabs would be shot 1st due to them being closer giving the DDA at least a turn of not being hit or damaged.
Why would the scarabs be shot 1st due to being closer?
Yeah, DDAs aren't characters mate. The shoot at closest thing is a character rule, not a scarab rule.
Forgot about that
I guess having a DDA on its own is the way to go atm.
If i'm gonna run DDA (and i really want to) I would field Scarabs with them and surround the DDA with them so if it gets shot at the scarabs would be shot 1st due to them being closer giving the DDA at least a turn of not being hit or damaged.
Why would the scarabs be shot 1st due to being closer?
Yeah, DDAs aren't characters mate. The shoot at closest thing is a character rule, not a scarab rule.
Forgot about that
I guess having a DDA on its own is the way to go atm.
Scarabs and the like can create larger bubbles where you can't land with 9" away abilities though. And keep fast things from charging you.
Have we decided how D3 damage works off of weapons with D3 shots?
For instance, the Doomsday Cannon on the Doomsday Ark. It's Heavy D3, and D3 damage. When do we roll for damage, and do we roll for each wound individually, or one roll for all wounds?
Example: We roll D3, and get 2 shots. We land both shots, and both wound, unsaved. Do we then roll two separate D3 to determine each shot's damage, or a single D3 and the value applies to both shot?
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Have we decided how D3 damage works off of weapons with D3 shots?
For instance, the Doomsday Cannon on the Doomsday Ark. It's Heavy D3, and D3 damage. When do we roll for damage, and do we roll for each wound individually, or one roll for all wounds?
Example: We roll D3, and get 2 shots. We land both shots, and both wound, unsaved. Do we then roll two separate D3 to determine each shot's damage, or a single D3 and the value applies to both shot?
we roll two separate D3 to determine each shot's damage
A 200 point gun (because let's face it, the big gun is the only one we really care about) that averages 2 shots that hit on 4s isn't good. At all. When it sits still it's great, but hitting on 4s is bad. Look at the Monolith - the Particle Whip is nearly the same (slightly weaker but double the max shots, triple the average), and it hits on 4s. Everyone agrees it's not worth taking.
I don't know anyone else who thinks the big gun is the only one worth caring about - 10 AP-1 Bolters are 10 AP-1 Bolters.
One of the major selling points of the D-Ark is you get the flayers also.
A 200 point gun (because let's face it, the big gun is the only one we really care about) that averages 2 shots that hit on 4s isn't good. At all. When it sits still it's great, but hitting on 4s is bad. Look at the Monolith - the Particle Whip is nearly the same (slightly weaker but double the max shots, triple the average), and it hits on 4s. Everyone agrees it's not worth taking.
I don't know anyone else who thinks the big gun is the only one worth caring about - 10 AP-1 Bolters are 10 AP-1 Bolters.
One of the major selling points of the D-Ark is you get the flayers also.
Yep, even if you move you still have the flayer arrays, and those don't suffer a hit penalty. So you can can reliably kill some infantry at least.
For anyone that uses the Qaurtermaster app, I have been working on the 8th edition Necron template and just finished it up. I have been working with the main dev throughout the process, and hopefully we'll have it up soon for everyone to use.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: For anyone that uses the Qaurtermaster app, I have been working on the 8th edition Necron template and just finished it up. I have been working with the main dev throughout the process, and hopefully we'll have it up soon for everyone to use.
Nice thanks for the hard work. Makes it easier for us lazy bums.
So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...
Orikan
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x H.Destroyers
T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA DDA
2000pts, 4CPs
Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.
All this talk about comparing the Destroyers and DDA as our big guns and anti tank, where do we stand on the Doom Scythe? Looks to be comparable damage, wounds and cost. Added bonus of trying to hit a flyer but no QS...
. At least all of our 
. The deathmarks stay in reserve, and deep strike in to take out any snipers the other team has, so the characters stay alive as long as possible (their buffs are crucial for this to last).
