How would a civilian be able to kill three scarabs? They're made by the most technologically advanced race in the universe, they're not that small (about a cat's size) and they're made of metal. Don't forget that they're literally designed to kill and eat stuff. A civilian would not stand a chance against three scarabs.
Yeah sure bolters/las guns might not have ap or much of it but scarabs have 6+ saves and toughness comparable to a human at 3. So they're pretty fragile, there's just a lot of them.
But yeah that 3 wounds situation~ I guess it depends on how far away they spot the scarabs at. IE if they spot them at max range and fire that round and keep backing up while firing every turn each model might kill a base if lucky before the scarabs charge and devour them...
Why is a Cryptek + Ghost Ark often considered sub-optimal?
With squads of 20 Warriors, the enemy will be hard-pressed to wipe them out completely. Especially if you hide two or three models out of LoS.
While it will cost 2 CP for auto-pass on the morale, you should be able to get 75% of the unit back. That is huge!
At first I thought that it would not be possible because there would not be enough room for the newly reanimated models, but remember that they only need to be in coherency to non-reanimated models. this gives you a 2" bubble to place new models, plenty of room.
And since the Ghost Arks Reanimation Protocols happen at the end of the movement phase, you can move the previously-reanimated Warriors, leaving you room around the non-reanimated ones for the Ghost Ark's RP.
Because its expensive. Yeah, its hard to remove. But its not dealing enough damage and you won't be able to afford damage dealers. That's one of the core problems with necrons; they can be tough, but that doesn't matter if you don't have enough damage output to make the durability worthwhile.
If you get assaulted by a smart opponent you really have to pay attention to casualty removal, as they can use the pile-in and consolidation movement to box you in. The newly arrived models must be in coherency AND 1'' away from enemy models.
epaemil wrote: Why are necrons so gak all of a sudden, it sucks
My guess? They really overestimated RP. I could see the worry being that if Necrons were too unkillable out of the gate, they would be too overbearing and end up being unfun for people to play against. So instead they erred on the side of caution and made it so there was no dominant Xenos like we had in 7th.
epaemil wrote: Why are necrons so gak all of a sudden, it sucks
My guess? They really overestimated RP. I could see the worry being that if Necrons were too unkillable out of the gate, they would be too overbearing and end up being unfun for people to play against. So instead they erred on the side of caution and made it so there was no dominant Xenos like we had in 7th.
Just a guess, tho.
Yeah, and every non-necron panicked about how unstoppable necrons will be, so that problem factored in.
I swear, everytime necrons get a fun gimmick, everyone whines and it gets taken away.
epaemil wrote: Why are necrons so gak all of a sudden, it sucks
My guess? They really overestimated RP. I could see the worry being that if Necrons were too unkillable out of the gate, they would be too overbearing and end up being unfun for people to play against. So instead they erred on the side of caution and made it so there was no dominant Xenos like we had in 7th.
Just a guess, tho.
Yeah, and every non-necron panicked about how unstoppable necrons will be, so that problem factored in.
I swear, everytime necrons get a fun gimmick, everyone whines and it gets taken away.
Why can't the most advanced race get to be a tiny bit better than everyone... also they better make gauss have a unique thing about it in the codex. One of the things that bothers me most. It strips away the atoms of the foe, but what it that translated into in game? -1 AP. Laughable.
To be fair, most basic weapons are 0AP. So -1 is a sort of neat little trait. Not as impressive as the other gauss rule, but it does have a bit more utility. What I miss are the more esoteric rules. Like living metal being able to ignore melta and lance, entropic strike, Mind Shackle scarabs, the cryptek weapons and res orbs being actually useful. Being made into a 35 point single use item that just grants rerolls is bs. Necrons had some unique stuff that added another element to their army comp, but all of their toys get taken away or homogenized.
Meanwhile, pretty much every other faction gets to keep their gimmicks and equipment.
Be careful with the "they are more advanced, so they should be better than everyone else" line of thinking. That's how you get 4th-7th ed Eldar
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Be careful with the "they are more advanced, so they should be better than everyone else" line of thinking. That's how you get 4th-7th ed Eldar
Theres nothing wrong with something being better than something else, as long as its costed appropriately, The whole game is built around units of different strength costing different points but balanced by those two factors. Otherwise there would only be a single unit which everyone took and ran them at each other.
We were always better but more expensive and as time has gone on necrons have become a joke getting cheaper and worse until finally they have become relatively more expensive and worse!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Be careful with the "they are more advanced, so they should be better than everyone else" line of thinking. That's how you get 4th-7th ed Eldar
It also inevitably leads to difficulty finding pick-up games. How many times have you heard "Oh. Didn't realize you played Necrons. I read online that they're super broken. No, thanks." Seriously heard this from someone running the Imperial Agents death star at the end of 7th.
What are your thoughts on Tesla Immortals without the MWBD buff?
A unit of 10 immortals costs 170 points and will output 20 hits on average. With MWBD, the output becomes 30 hits, but the cheapest MWBD is the Overlord w/ hyperphase at 104 points.
Instead of running an overlord, if you run an equivalent of 104(102) points in immortals, then you'll have an additional 12 hits on average from 6 models.
So overall, one full 10 model unit and 6 model unit for the same cost of a 10 model unit and overlord will give you 32 hits vs 30 hits.
Overlord is great, but I don't think it's worth the cost to buff a single unit with MWBD. Resurrection orb is great too, but the cost may be of better use in more models. It also doesn't seem to scale well when you want to add multiple immortal units, as these buffs only apply to a single unit.
My thoughts are to use multiple immortal units, and bring a cryptek for the 5++ and 4+ RP. Cheap, effective, and scales better when we want to bring more troops.
IMO, more models(more wounds) would also help counter the issue of the overcosted RP built into some of our models. Less wounds on the board leaves us more vulnerable to having a unit blown off in one turn, voiding our RP cost. Not to mention, more models to hold objectives
Thoughts?
EDIT: Sorry, accidentally hit the submit button too early on mobile.
What are your thoughts on Tesla Immortals without the MWBD buff?
A unit of 10 immortals costs 170 points and will output 20 hits on average. With MWBD, the o
Have you read the dakka
Without MWBD, tesla is better at greater than 12", and gauss blaster is better within 12". So if you are planning on making them turrets camped out on an objective Tesla is probably better.
Troops: 15x Warriors
15x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Elite: 10x Lychguard /w Warscythes
Fast attack: 5x Scarabs
6x Tomb Blades /w shieldvanes and Shadowlooms
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark
Patrol
2x Overlord /w Warscytches and Ressurection Orbs
troops: 15x Warriors
Orks: -3 trukks, filled with 2x 12 boyz and one with12 burnas.
-2 Battlewagons, one with 15 Tankbustas and one with 5 -Meganobz, Warboss and Weirdboy
-Mekboy /w KFF -Gorkanaut
Necron, turn 1:
Well as you can probably guess, my anti-tank was severely lacking. Warriors and Immortals moved up, staying behind the Scarab screen. Still a lot that wasn't in range though. Bikes moved up to get a shot at the Burna trukk.
Szeras upgraded a Warrior squad with +1T. I kept it since I knew my Warriors were gonna have to duke it out with Boyz in close combat soon, so this upgrade outta come in handy.
Doomsday Ark opened fire on the Gorkanaut, managed to roll 3 wound dice but my opponent rolled a bloody good save for his KFF that was near the Gorkanaut.
Shooting from half of the Warriors brought a Trukk down to 3 wounds.
Orks, turn 1:
Everything moved up, huge suprise. Burnas rolled an amazing 6" on their advance and thus got in range of the Scarabs. Yikes!
Ork shooting killed two Tomb Blades in total. The 5++ really saved their hides.
Burnas rolled an unfortunate 1 on their D3 shots, even with a Command reroll. Managed to down 2 scarabs.
Necrons, turn 2:
Everything moved up to get into rapid-fire range. Big mistake I made here is not moving up the scarabs a bit. My opponent would have made his charge regardless and because they were now just in front of the Warriors, my opponent was later able to consolidate into them.
Szeras this time upgraded the second Warrior squad to +1S. While I would normally reroll this, I decided against it since I figured they'd need it in fighting Boyz. Turned out they would do nothing but wack at Battlewagons/Trukks, making it worthless.
Shooting.... ugh. Doomsday Ark failed ágain. This time he wiffed his shots.
One warrior squad managed to kill all but one Burna, really effective there.
The rest all opened up on the Battlewagon with the Meganobz. While I had hopes that mass Warrior fire would down a vehicle, T8 makes that pretty much impossible.
Orks, turn 2:
With everything in charge range, the orks rushed forward. The Boyz rushed the front while the Warboss + Meganobz were able to go around the flank and get to my Lychguard.
Gorkanaut went for the Tomb Blades
This time the ork shooting payed off. The Tankbustas opened up with the Dakka Dakka strategem. Good rolls on the Quantum Shielding meant a total of 6 wound were dealt to the Doomsday Ark.
And in the Orks went, WAAAAAAAAAGHHH!!
The Meganobz were the first to fight to avoid combat interruption and managed to kill all the Lychguard. Boy did I miss the 4++ that the shields would give. If only I had the points....
Boyz + Warboss started wacking on the Warriors, but the +1 T really managed to reduce their casualties. A total of two warriors and two scarabs died.
The other squad of Warriors was tied up by the other Battlewagon + Trukk. Despite a Deff Rolla, the vehicles managed to only kill on Warrior.
Gorkanaut vs Tomb Blades... yea you can guess how that went :(.
Necrons, turn 3
Reanimation Protocols brought back a 4 Warriors over the two units.
Two warrior squads stayed put, I was convinced they would be able to hold the tide of Boyz + ork transports. That left the last squad of Warriors + the Immortals left for shooting.
The Overlords moved closer to the front, they were needed in the melee.
Shootin' time! Combined fire of the Warriors (now BS 2+, courtesy of Szeras), the Immortals and the Gauss Flayer Array from the DDA killed the Meganobz. The Doomsday Ark this time managed to put 7 wounds into the Gorkanaut, but I feared it was already too late.
The warriors traded blows with the Boyz and the transports, taking out a suprising amount of them down but doing little damage to the vehicles.
Orks, turn 3:
The Gorkanaut, with parts of the Tomb Blades still in its massive claws, lumbered towards the frontline. The rest of the Orks were in close combat, so it was a short movement phase.
The Tankbustas opened up on the DDA again, this time not so lucky with the Quantum Shielding. A total of 12 wounds utterly destroyed it.
And while the melee continued and slowly drew in my favour, I knew I had no answer to the Gorkanaut. And thus, just as we both had to leave, I conceded the game.
Post-match thoughts:
-Warriors are surprisingly effective against units like Boyz in close combat. While I'm sure they would have lost if there were more Boyz, giving them +1 T or +1S can really make a difference.
-While mass Gauss Flayer fire cán work against T7 vehicles, it's no use when the vehicles is T8.
-definitely more Scarabs! My opponent had a rough time cutting through them. If they could have granted me another turn of shooting, it could have gone very differently (if I had more anti-tank, that is...)
What are your thoughts on Tesla Immortals without the MWBD buff?
A unit of 10 immortals costs 170 points and will output 20 hits on average. With MWBD, the output becomes 30 hits, but the cheapest MWBD is the Overlord w/ hyperphase at 104 points.
Instead of running an overlord, if you run an equivalent of 104(102) points in immortals, then you'll have an additional 12 hits on average from 6 models.
So overall, one full 10 model unit and 6 model unit for the same cost of a 10 model unit and overlord will give you 32 hits vs 30 hits.
Overlord is great, but I don't think it's worth the cost to buff a single unit with MWBD. Resurrection orb is great too, but the cost may be of better use in more models. It also doesn't seem to scale well when you want to add multiple immortal units, as these buffs only apply to a single unit.
My thoughts are to use multiple immortal units, and bring a cryptek for the 5++ and 4+ RP. Cheap, effective, and scales better when we want to bring more troops.
IMO, more models(more wounds) would also help counter the issue of the overcosted RP built into some of our models. Less wounds on the board leaves us more vulnerable to having a unit blown off in one turn, voiding our RP cost. Not to mention, more models to hold objectives
Thoughts?
EDIT: Sorry, accidentally hit the submit button too early on mobile.
EDIT2: Cheaper OL
Unit size is still 10, so not really mitigating the RP weakness?
OL could also MWBD something else. If you have 20 warriors in RP range, they will output more damage then the tesla immortals. Even more with MWBD.
Of you have the relic, you have the option to take anything across the board with MWBD, could be 10 LG, could be 20 warriors, could be 10 gauss immortals. Offering choice to a changing game board
Troops: 15x Warriors
15x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Elite: 10x Lychguard /w Warscythes
Fast attack: 5x Scarabs
6x Tomb Blades /w shieldvanes and Shadowlooms
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark
Patrol
2x Overlord /w Warscytches and Ressurection Orbs
troops: 15x Warriors
Orks: -3 trukks, filled with 2x 12 boyz and one with12 burnas.
-2 Battlewagons, one with 15 Tankbustas and one with 5 -Meganobz, Warboss and Weirdboy
-Mekboy /w KFF -Gorkanaut
Necron, turn 1:
Well as you can probably guess, my anti-tank was severely lacking. Warriors and Immortals moved up, staying behind the Scarab screen. Still a lot that wasn't in range though. Bikes moved up to get a shot at the Burna trukk.
Szeras upgraded a Warrior squad with +1T. I kept it since I knew my Warriors were gonna have to duke it out with Boyz in close combat soon, so this upgrade outta come in handy.
Doomsday Ark opened fire on the Gorkanaut, managed to roll 3 wound dice but my opponent rolled a bloody good save for his KFF that was near the Gorkanaut.
Shooting from half of the Warriors brought a Trukk down to 3 wounds.
Orks, turn 1:
Everything moved up, huge suprise. Burnas rolled an amazing 6" on their advance and thus got in range of the Scarabs. Yikes!
Ork shooting killed two Tomb Blades in total. The 5++ really saved their hides.
Burnas rolled an unfortunate 1 on their D3 shots, even with a Command reroll. Managed to down 2 scarabs.
Necrons, turn 2:
Everything moved up to get into rapid-fire range. Big mistake I made here is not moving up the scarabs a bit. My opponent would have made his charge regardless and because they were now just in front of the Warriors, my opponent was later able to consolidate into them.
Szeras this time upgraded the second Warrior squad to +1S. While I would normally reroll this, I decided against it since I figured they'd need it in fighting Boyz. Turned out they would do nothing but wack at Battlewagons/Trukks, making it worthless.
Shooting.... ugh. Doomsday Ark failed ágain. This time he wiffed his shots.
One warrior squad managed to kill all but one Burna, really effective there.
The rest all opened up on the Battlewagon with the Meganobz. While I had hopes that mass Warrior fire would down a vehicle, T8 makes that pretty much impossible.
Orks, turn 2:
With everything in charge range, the orks rushed forward. The Boyz rushed the front while the Warboss + Meganobz were able to go around the flank and get to my Lychguard.
Gorkanaut went for the Tomb Blades
This time the ork shooting payed off. The Tankbustas opened up with the Dakka Dakka strategem. Good rolls on the Quantum Shielding meant a total of 6 wound were dealt to the Doomsday Ark.
And in the Orks went, WAAAAAAAAAGHHH!!
The Meganobz were the first to fight to avoid combat interruption and managed to kill all the Lychguard. Boy did I miss the 4++ that the shields would give. If only I had the points....
Boyz + Warboss started wacking on the Warriors, but the +1 T really managed to reduce their casualties. A total of two warriors and two scarabs died.
The other squad of Warriors was tied up by the other Battlewagon + Trukk. Despite a Deff Rolla, the vehicles managed to only kill on Warrior.
Gorkanaut vs Tomb Blades... yea you can guess how that went :(.
Necrons, turn 3
Reanimation Protocols brought back a 4 Warriors over the two units.
Two warrior squads stayed put, I was convinced they would be able to hold the tide of Boyz + ork transports. That left the last squad of Warriors + the Immortals left for shooting.
The Overlords moved closer to the front, they were needed in the melee.
Shootin' time! Combined fire of the Warriors (now BS 2+, courtesy of Szeras), the Immortals and the Gauss Flayer Array from the DDA killed the Meganobz. The Doomsday Ark this time managed to put 7 wounds into the Gorkanaut, but I feared it was already too late.
The warriors traded blows with the Boyz and the transports, taking out a suprising amount of them down but doing little damage to the vehicles.
Orks, turn 3:
The Gorkanaut, with parts of the Tomb Blades still in its massive claws, lumbered towards the frontline. The rest of the Orks were in close combat, so it was a short movement phase.
The Tankbustas opened up on the DDA again, this time not so lucky with the Quantum Shielding. A total of 12 wounds utterly destroyed it.
And while the melee continued and slowly drew in my favour, I knew I had no answer to the Gorkanaut. And thus, just as we both had to leave, I conceded the game.
Post-match thoughts:
-Warriors are surprisingly effective against units like Boyz in close combat. While I'm sure they would have lost if there were more Boyz, giving them +1 T or +1S can really make a difference.
-While mass Gauss Flayer fire cán work against T7 vehicles, it's no use when the vehicles is T8.
-definitely more Scarabs! My opponent had a rough time cutting through them. If they could have granted me another turn of shooting, it could have gone very differently (if I had more anti-tank, that is...)
With more scarabs you could field an additional outrider for one more CP.
What about anrakyr with +1A aura? Really useful against enemies that rush you. Those warriors would chop down twice as many boys in CC. Could even do the vehicle shenanigans perhaps. Mostly a gimmick though.
How many points is a veil of darkness, exactly? I can't seem to find the amount. I would like to incorporate into my list to see how it actually performs, but I can't if I don't have a value.
Arachnofiend wrote: The veil of darkness is free, since it's the first and only relic you can take in a necron force. Further relics cost CP, not points.
Huh, that's different. And looks a little unbalanced. It would explain why the veil is one use only though. Doesn't explain why the TSons can use theirs as many times as they want.
Troops: 15x Warriors
15x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Elite: 10x Lychguard /w Warscythes
Fast attack: 5x Scarabs
6x Tomb Blades /w shieldvanes and Shadowlooms
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark
Patrol
2x Overlord /w Warscytches and Ressurection Orbs
troops: 15x Warriors
Orks: -3 trukks, filled with 2x 12 boyz and one with12 burnas.
-2 Battlewagons, one with 15 Tankbustas and one with 5 -Meganobz, Warboss and Weirdboy
-Mekboy /w KFF -Gorkanaut
Necron, turn 1:
Well as you can probably guess, my anti-tank was severely lacking. Warriors and Immortals moved up, staying behind the Scarab screen. Still a lot that wasn't in range though. Bikes moved up to get a shot at the Burna trukk.
Szeras upgraded a Warrior squad with +1T. I kept it since I knew my Warriors were gonna have to duke it out with Boyz in close combat soon, so this upgrade outta come in handy.
Doomsday Ark opened fire on the Gorkanaut, managed to roll 3 wound dice but my opponent rolled a bloody good save for his KFF that was near the Gorkanaut.
Shooting from half of the Warriors brought a Trukk down to 3 wounds.
Orks, turn 1:
Everything moved up, huge suprise. Burnas rolled an amazing 6" on their advance and thus got in range of the Scarabs. Yikes!
Ork shooting killed two Tomb Blades in total. The 5++ really saved their hides.
Burnas rolled an unfortunate 1 on their D3 shots, even with a Command reroll. Managed to down 2 scarabs.
Necrons, turn 2:
Everything moved up to get into rapid-fire range. Big mistake I made here is not moving up the scarabs a bit. My opponent would have made his charge regardless and because they were now just in front of the Warriors, my opponent was later able to consolidate into them.
Szeras this time upgraded the second Warrior squad to +1S. While I would normally reroll this, I decided against it since I figured they'd need it in fighting Boyz. Turned out they would do nothing but wack at Battlewagons/Trukks, making it worthless.
Shooting.... ugh. Doomsday Ark failed ágain. This time he wiffed his shots.
One warrior squad managed to kill all but one Burna, really effective there.
The rest all opened up on the Battlewagon with the Meganobz. While I had hopes that mass Warrior fire would down a vehicle, T8 makes that pretty much impossible.
Orks, turn 2:
With everything in charge range, the orks rushed forward. The Boyz rushed the front while the Warboss + Meganobz were able to go around the flank and get to my Lychguard.
Gorkanaut went for the Tomb Blades
This time the ork shooting payed off. The Tankbustas opened up with the Dakka Dakka strategem. Good rolls on the Quantum Shielding meant a total of 6 wound were dealt to the Doomsday Ark.
And in the Orks went, WAAAAAAAAAGHHH!!
The Meganobz were the first to fight to avoid combat interruption and managed to kill all the Lychguard. Boy did I miss the 4++ that the shields would give. If only I had the points....
Boyz + Warboss started wacking on the Warriors, but the +1 T really managed to reduce their casualties. A total of two warriors and two scarabs died.
The other squad of Warriors was tied up by the other Battlewagon + Trukk. Despite a Deff Rolla, the vehicles managed to only kill on Warrior.
Gorkanaut vs Tomb Blades... yea you can guess how that went :(.
Necrons, turn 3
Reanimation Protocols brought back a 4 Warriors over the two units.
Two warrior squads stayed put, I was convinced they would be able to hold the tide of Boyz + ork transports. That left the last squad of Warriors + the Immortals left for shooting.
The Overlords moved closer to the front, they were needed in the melee.
Shootin' time! Combined fire of the Warriors (now BS 2+, courtesy of Szeras), the Immortals and the Gauss Flayer Array from the DDA killed the Meganobz. The Doomsday Ark this time managed to put 7 wounds into the Gorkanaut, but I feared it was already too late.
The warriors traded blows with the Boyz and the transports, taking out a suprising amount of them down but doing little damage to the vehicles.
Orks, turn 3:
The Gorkanaut, with parts of the Tomb Blades still in its massive claws, lumbered towards the frontline. The rest of the Orks were in close combat, so it was a short movement phase.
The Tankbustas opened up on the DDA again, this time not so lucky with the Quantum Shielding. A total of 12 wounds utterly destroyed it.
And while the melee continued and slowly drew in my favour, I knew I had no answer to the Gorkanaut. And thus, just as we both had to leave, I conceded the game.
Post-match thoughts:
-Warriors are surprisingly effective against units like Boyz in close combat. While I'm sure they would have lost if there were more Boyz, giving them +1 T or +1S can really make a difference.
-While mass Gauss Flayer fire cán work against T7 vehicles, it's no use when the vehicles is T8.
-definitely more Scarabs! My opponent had a rough time cutting through them. If they could have granted me another turn of shooting, it could have gone very differently (if I had more anti-tank, that is...)
Great report, thanks for sharing!
I do hope they address the RP unit wiping, those lychguard paid a premium on points for nothing but showing up, the rule had 0 impact on that game.
I'd drop a cryptek and a unit of warriors in favor of more Immortals to gain some room, maybe even drop an Overlord for some more Scarabs and Tomb Blades. A unit of 9 is not as easily removed, I usually keep them at distance until mid-game where I can zoom in and safetly get into rapid fire range.
Arachnofiend wrote: The veil of darkness is free, since it's the first and only relic you can take in a necron force. Further relics cost CP, not points.
Huh, that's different. And looks a little unbalanced.
It would explain why the veil is one use only though. Doesn't explain why the TSons can use theirs as many times as they want.
It's not unbalanced because everyone's relics are like that. Not sure what you mean about TSons, the Athenaen Scrolls is a terrible relic and I'd take the Veil of Darkness over it every time.
Unit size is still 10, so not really mitigating the RP weakness?
Agreed. I don't think it would mitigate the weakness entirely, but I think it would be valid to say since you have more wounds on the field at the same point cost, you're dampening the blow?
OL could also MWBD something else. If you have 20 warriors in RP range, they will output more damage then the tesla immortals. Even more with MWBD.
Of you have the relic, you have the option to take anything across the board with MWBD, could be 10 LG, could be 20 warriors, could be 10 gauss immortals. Offering choice to a changing game board
I agree here, as well. MWBD is a great tool for certain units. Your example of LG is spot on. Using MWBD to help land the charge, as opposed to a 300 point unit sitting as a sponge through the next turn.
My point I'm trying to make is that the OL and Tesla immortals synergy, as mentioned a few times on the front page of this thread, doesn't appear to be as effective when you can invest the same amount of points in only Tesla immortals.
So... It's better to invest points into 2 units of Tesla Immortals rather then 1 unit be buffed by MWBD? Meaning taking a Cryptek is the "best" HQ based on points and use-ability?
Odrankt wrote: So... It's better to invest points into 2 units of Tesla Immortals rather then 1 unit be buffed by MWBD? Meaning taking a Cryptek is the "best" HQ based on points and use-ability?
With respect to how many hits you'll get per points, yes, 2 units of immortals is more efficient than 1 unit and an OL.
If you use your immortals to advance, then there will be some value in an OL and MWBD to offset the -1 to hit. But again, that's only one unit that they can buff.
I think a Cryptek/Orikan would be better to babysit your immortals.
There is no "best HQ".
There's only what works best with what you've got.
You have to take an HQ for your Warlord, so take one that will compliment your army best.
If you've only got a unit or two of Immortals, Overlord is your best bet.
If you're planning on taking a bunch of Warriors, obviously you would be best served with a Cryptek.
Expensive guys? Cryptek.
Need more accurate shooting/charging/hitting? Overlord.
Etc.
You really aren't going to save as much as you think. Take a basic battalion for example. You start with 2 Overlords and 3 10 man immortal squads. You still need 2 hqs regardless of what type, so if you switch both overlords to crypteks, you only save enough for one extra immortal (which you could add by going MSU with the immortals) In doing so, you have a large net loss in overall firepower, and likely a wash to a minor increase in defensive capability.
If you are initially running 3 overlords, and change to 2 crypteks, you now can afford around 7 and a half extra immortals which equates to still a fair loss in firepower, but a slightly more durable force mostly through mass of bodies.
In the end, I'll take firepower over defensive increases almost every time with immortals. Especially when the hit in firepower is much larger than the gain in durability.
Maelstrom808 wrote: You really aren't going to save as much as you think. Take a basic battalion for example. You start with 2 Overlords and 3 10 man immortal squads. You still need 2 hqs regardless of what type, so if you switch both overlords to crypteks, you only save enough for one extra immortal (which you could add by going MSU with the immortals) In doing so, you have a large net loss in overall firepower, and likely a wash to a minor increase in defensive capability.
If you are initially running 3 overlords, and change to 2 crypteks, you now can afford around 7 and a half extra immortals which equates to still a fair loss in firepower, but a slightly more durable force mostly through mass of bodies.
In the end, I'll take firepower over defensive increases almost every time with immortals. Especially when the hit in firepower is much larger than the gain in durability.
In this example, that makes sense. But I think you're missing the main point I'm making.
Offensively speaking, an OL and unit of immortals won't be as effective as the equivalent in just immortals. What that means to me is that we can disassociate the synergy of the OL and Immortals, leaving us open to pick any HQ we want.
Basically, you would have better firepower and you don't have to assign an HQ to follow the immortals everywhere (Go ram a CCB into the enemy backline!)
I suggested a Cryptek, if you still want an HQ on them, simply because of the aura it gives and it's scaleability.
Ex. If you have multiple units of troops, all units can get the RP 4+ and the 5++ within range of the Cryptek. You can opt for an OLHQ and MWBD to give to 1 of those units, but I think you'd be underestimating the defensive value when you're buffing multiple units.
Isn't the only meaningful comparison to make with that of the point difference to a cheaper HQ, since you're always going to have an HQ.
If you can cram in 1-2 extra immortals for a cheaper HQ, and that extra firepower does not that match the MWBD bonus - doesn't that say that the synergy has something going for it?
torblind wrote: Isn't the only meaningful comparison to make with that of the point difference to a cheaper HQ, since you're always going to have an HQ.
If you can cram in 1-2 extra immortals for a cheaper HQ, and that extra firepower does not that match the MWBD bonus - doesn't that say that the synergy has something going for it?
^ this.
Point for point, you are better off simply adding an additional immortal to the squad until size 14, at which point the math flips and adding an OL with MWBD becomes better... however, the max size is 10 so that never happens.
HOWEVER, if you are building a bound army and intend to take a Battalion/etc., and as part of that Battalion you are planning to take an OL (or equivalent MWBD granting HQ), then at that point you can consider the offensive output of a Tesla Immortal squad as if it were buffed; and each additional immortal with the equivalent buffed status.
So, you’re right that you can de-shackle Tesla Immortals from MWBD to a point.
However, with the current state of the Index, there are few alternatives to an OL in your armies anyway, so it becomes more moot.
If they had wanted to add more list design tension (which makes for more fun at list building stage of the game), they should have made Lords capable of granting this buff, or something, so that the math flipped at size >10. But, /shrug.
torblind wrote: Isn't the only meaningful comparison to make with that of the point difference to a cheaper HQ, since you're always going to have an HQ.
If you can cram in 1-2 extra immortals for a cheaper HQ, and that extra firepower does not that match the MWBD bonus - doesn't that say that the synergy has something going for it?
^ this.
I definitely agree. Though I've seen lists built around the idea that you should only have a unit of tesla immortals if you can give them MWBD. They are an excellent unit within our current index as-is and don't require an HQ with them.
However, with the current state of the Index, there are few alternatives to an OL in your armies anyway, so it becomes more moot.
If they had wanted to add more list design tension (which makes for more fun at list building stage of the game), they should have made Lords capable of granting this buff, or something, so that the math flipped at size >10. But, /shrug
Yeah, I think it's backwards when the motivation for an HQ in this scenario is just for battleforged requirements. Whereas other faction lists have the option to want more HQ than they have slots for(thinking of Primaris Psyker here)
Cheaper HQ options and RP that doesn't push towards max sizes would be a welcome change. Trazyn could make a reappearance and we could perhaps field a brigade to afford those fancy stratagems we are getting.
torblind wrote: Cheaper HQ options and RP that doesn't push towards max sizes would be a welcome change. Trazyn could make a reappearance and we could perhaps field a brigade to afford those fancy stratagems we are getting.
Yeah, it's hard to balance a list aiming at ITC rules and our RP max unit size. Basically gives them free points from the Reaper, if we're trying to maximize the potential benefit of RP.
Also, our cheap screen of scarabs doesn't play well with the current format. 3T 3W models is easy Gang Busters. I would like to see warriors cheaper for a screen and allow the ghost ark to carry a full 20 man unit.
I’ve made multiple multiple lists with max and min scarabs as screens: they mess with deep striking for Turn 1 shenanigans, and then are idly melted by the opponent.
And while it may be that they are drawing a bit of fire, we simply don’t have credible alternative multi-wound models to be shot at... so they are drawing fire that would have been irrelevant anyway.
Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.
I disagree with Scarabs being a bad screening unit.
1: They don't need leadership bonuses unlike most other screening unit (unless you run squads of 9). Pretty much every other cheap chaff will need a character or something to stop them from running away.
2: They are fast for chaff. A tiny unit of 3 scarabs can zip around and grab objectives relatively easy. Or maybe even go unnoticed towards your enemy to score Behind Enemy Lines.
Their fast movement also allows them to keep up and screen C'tan Shards.
3: They have a surprising amount of attacks with WS 3+. Of course only S3 with AP-, but so is pretty much all chaff melee.
4: They have the added bonus of always wounding on at least a 5+. Let them lock down a dreadnought for a turn or two and nibble it down some wounds.
5: I found in my previous games that they are harder to surround with melee blobs than a normal chaff unit would. Since they have a lower model number and a larger base, a large unit of say, Boyz, will have a hard time to get them all into melee range.
6: And while I haven't used it yet, a large group of Scarabs could very well be reanimated thanks to the Reanimate Canoptek strategem. Since the strategem is in effect till the end of your turn, you can even combine it with a nearby Overlord's Resurrection Orb. Would that be wasted on a unit of Scarabs? Not if this gives them an extra turn to hold the enemy at bay!
They are also cheap per wound. Its like 4 points a wound. They are our gretchin, except faster, tougher, better armored and they can actually do stuff in close combat. In order for the res orb to be worth using on scarabs it has to save at least 3 bases of them. I don't know if its cost effective. I'd rather use it to save destroyers or guard.
Scarabs are certainly good for small DS screen, but if you want to mass them for a movement or charge screen, then you handily give up 4 secondary points.
If you're not playing ITC format, then you wouldn't have to worry about this.
Fenris-77 wrote: Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.
That’s the idea, but this doesn’t work in practice. AV weapons are High STR with D6; and if a goofy opponent shoots those at scarabs, you’re laughing.
However in practice, multiwound strength 5-6, which is usually wasted against us (as it’s insufficient strength for reliable AV and our Tier 1 T4-T5 isn’t multi-wound) suddenly has a prime target.
Fenris-77 wrote: Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.
That’s the idea, but this doesn’t work in practice. AV weapons are High STR with D6; and if a goofy opponent shoots those at scarabs, you’re laughing.
However in practice, multiwound strength 5-6, which is usually wasted against us (as it’s insufficient strength for reliable AV and our Tier 1 T4-T5 isn’t multi-wound) suddenly has a prime target.
Do people bring much of these weapons? It would be our gauss cannons, right?
Fenris-77 wrote: Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.
Except necron vehicles have quantum shielding so we benefit from oppontents waisting mulit-wound shots on our vehicles. I am constantly getting my scarabs blasted by lascannons while bolters shred my vehicles to bits.
Fenris-77 wrote: Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.
Except necron vehicles have quantum shielding so we benefit from oppontents waisting mulit-wound shots on our vehicles. I am constantly getting my scarabs blasted by lascannons while bolters shred my vehicles to bits.
I find that the combination of QS + Living Metal works out quite powerfully.
I understand about Quantum shielding. I still think it's a win if the vehicles aren't eating LC shots. Not every list has the raw dakka to whittle down a pile of vehicles using S4-6 low Ap type stuff. At the high competitive level every list has that of course, but that's not the whole hobby. Also, if you have infantry and your opponent isn't throwing raw dakka at your warriors and Immortals but at the vehicles, then the RP will do you more good. Obviously this doesn't make Necrons 'good', but the basic idea that there are lots of ways for opponents to make 'mistakes' with their shooting priority and choices is present, which is good - that idea just needs to be realized in a more practical, useful, and balanced way.
In some ways, a lot of the elements to make Necrons work really well as a synergy type army are already present, just not functional enough to be any good. The combo of RP, Scarabs, Quantum vehicles and Canoptek repair is actually really cool, and if it worked properly would make the Necrons a fun, unique army. Now GW just has to make those mechanics work properly.
What change would you guys want to see with RP? Point decrease? Optional wargear?
This snippet has me intrigued from the Necrons fandom wiki:
Given time, severed limbs reattach, armour plating reknits and shattered mechanical organs are rebuilt. The only way, then, to assure a Necron's destruction is to overwhelm its ability to self-repair, to inflict such massive damage that its ancient regenerative systems cannot keep pace. Even then, should irreparable damage occur, the Necron will often simply "phase out" -- an automated viridian teleportation beam returning it to the safety of the stasis-crypts, where it remains in storage until such time as repairs can be carried out.
It would be cool to have it implemented as described, continue making RP rolls for the unit even after it's wiped. Store them in reserves and have a reliable way to return them to the board (not having to rely on another unit being present)
Necronplayer wrote: What change would you guys want to see with RP? Point decrease? Optional wargear?
This snippet has me intrigued from the Necrons fandom wiki:
Given time, severed limbs reattach, armour plating reknits and shattered mechanical organs are rebuilt. The only way, then, to assure a Necron's destruction is to overwhelm its ability to self-repair, to inflict such massive damage that its ancient regenerative systems cannot keep pace. Even then, should irreparable damage occur, the Necron will often simply "phase out" -- an automated viridian teleportation beam returning it to the safety of the stasis-crypts, where it remains in storage until such time as repairs can be carried out.
It would be cool to have it implemented as described, continue making RP rolls for the unit even after it's wiped. Store them in reserves and have a reliable way to return them to the board (not having to rely on another unit being present)
Thoughts on balancing a mechanic like this?
RP able to bring back models that flee, or make warriors fearless, or both. I don't want (a lot of) optional wargear for most units. I like the idea of necrons having very very specific units that do specific job (ideally death marks being character snipers, lychguard being the slow undying body guards or nightmare melee blenders, etc) but of course that could kinda fall into paper, rock, scissors style list where if you didn't bring x then you have a harder time if your opponent brought z, or one unit accidently doing multiple jobs of specific units as good or close enough to take the double duty units. But i guess that is the path to wishlisting.
So, let me bounce these idea's for Necron strategems of you Guys:
Spoiler:
1 CP; By Mine Will: Use this strategem whenever an Overlord or Catacomb Command Barge uses the 'My will be Done' or 'Wave of Command' ability. This unit can use this ability an additional time this turn.
1 CP; Enchanced Technomany; At the start of your turn, increase the range of the aura abilities of a Cryptek by 6".
2 CP; Eternal servitude; Use this strategem whenever the last model of a unit with reanimation protocols dies. Do not remove this model from the table. You can roll Reanimation Protocols for this unit at the start of your next turn.
1 CP; Mindless Machines: Use this strategem on a unit of Warriors, Immortals or Scarabs. This unit automatically passes any morale tests for this turn.
1 CP Renewed body: Use this strategem whenever you use the living metal ability on a unit. The unit gains D3 wounds back instead of 1.
If the unit has the Phylactery ability, it gains D6 wounds back instead of 1.
2 CP; Dimensional Portal: Use this strategem whenever a unit of Deathmarks has used the Ethereal Interception ability. When the unit is done shooting, place them back in reserve. This strategem can only be used once per game.
3 CP; Puppeteer of Reality: use this strategem whenever you use the Grand Illusion ability from the C'tan shard of the Deceiver. You can now re position D6 units instead of D3.
1 CP; Star-God's power: Use this strategem whenever a C'tan unit uses a Power of the C'tan. This unit can use one power of the C'tan again for this turn.
1 CP; Trans-dimensional Beings: Use this strategem at the start of the enemy turn. Select a unit of Canoptek Wraiths; this unit is -1 to hit for this turn.
2 CP; Total Destruction; Use this strategem whenever a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers finished shooting. This unit can shoot again, but must shoot at the same target.
1 CP; Quantum Overload: Use this strategem whenever a unit with Quantum Shielding is taking damage. You can reroll the Quantum Shielding rolls for this unit for this turn.
2 CP; Death and Doom: Use this strategem whenever a unit has been targeted by a Doomscythe's Death Ray and a Doomsday Ark's Doomsday Cannon. This unit takes D6 mortal wounds.
Look, I can understand trying to divine what stuff the codex might contain based on observations of codex that have already come out, but with only a couple months (potential) until the new book is out, I don't see the point of wishlisting in the tactics thread.
Is it just me...but are Necron HQ choices pretty wildly overpriced. Other codecies get bubble buffs on 70 point captains...but we have to pay 120 for an overlord with a buff for a single unit?
Hey maybe we will get what the guard and orks have that would fix the RP problem.
A strat to combine units into one.
Letting you have squads of 20 or even 30 immortals or sqauds of 40 warriors meaning needing far less HQ's for buffs and making Veils of D a terrifying weapon it should be.
You will burn through CP checking moral after 2 turns on top of paying to combine so it is not over powered.
Doctoralex wrote: So, let me bounce these idea's for Necron strategems of you Guys:
Spoiler:
1 CP; By Mine Will: Use this strategem whenever an Overlord or Catacomb Command Barge uses the 'My will be Done' or 'Wave of Command' ability. This unit can use this ability an additional time this turn.
1 CP; Enchanced Technomany; At the start of your turn, increase the range of the aura abilities of a Cryptek by 6".
2 CP; Eternal servitude; Use this strategem whenever the last model of a unit with reanimation protocols dies. Do not remove this model from the table. You can roll Reanimation Protocols for this unit at the start of your next turn.
1 CP; Mindless Machines: Use this strategem on a unit of Warriors, Immortals or Scarabs. This unit automatically passes any morale tests for this turn.
1 CP Renewed body: Use this strategem whenever you use the living metal ability on a unit. The unit gains D3 wounds back instead of 1.
If the unit has the Phylactery ability, it gains D6 wounds back instead of 1.
2 CP; Dimensional Portal: Use this strategem whenever a unit of Deathmarks has used the Ethereal Interception ability. When the unit is done shooting, place them back in reserve. This strategem can only be used once per game.
3 CP; Puppeteer of Reality: use this strategem whenever you use the Grand Illusion ability from the C'tan shard of the Deceiver. You can now re position D6 units instead of D3.
1 CP; Star-God's power: Use this strategem whenever a C'tan unit uses a Power of the C'tan. This unit can use one power of the C'tan again for this turn.
1 CP; Trans-dimensional Beings: Use this strategem at the start of the enemy turn. Select a unit of Canoptek Wraiths; this unit is -1 to hit for this turn.
2 CP; Total Destruction; Use this strategem whenever a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers finished shooting. This unit can shoot again, but must shoot at the same target.
1 CP; Quantum Overload: Use this strategem whenever a unit with Quantum Shielding is taking damage. You can reroll the Quantum Shielding rolls for this unit for this turn.
2 CP; Death and Doom: Use this strategem whenever a unit has been targeted by a Doomscythe's Death Ray and a Doomsday Ark's Doomsday Cannon. This unit takes D6 mortal wounds.
That's all I can come up with for now!
I agree with skoffs and all, but I actually enjoyed reading through the list, seemed well thought through, creative and with nice names (don't ever underestimate how hard it is to come up wtih good named!
Doctoralex wrote: So, let me bounce these idea's for Necron strategems of you Guys:
Spoiler:
1 CP; By Mine Will: Use this strategem whenever an Overlord or Catacomb Command Barge uses the 'My will be Done' or 'Wave of Command' ability. This unit can use this ability an additional time this turn.
1 CP; Enchanced Technomany; At the start of your turn, increase the range of the aura abilities of a Cryptek by 6".
2 CP; Eternal servitude; Use this strategem whenever the last model of a unit with reanimation protocols dies. Do not remove this model from the table. You can roll Reanimation Protocols for this unit at the start of your next turn.
1 CP; Mindless Machines: Use this strategem on a unit of Warriors, Immortals or Scarabs. This unit automatically passes any morale tests for this turn.
1 CP Renewed body: Use this strategem whenever you use the living metal ability on a unit. The unit gains D3 wounds back instead of 1.
If the unit has the Phylactery ability, it gains D6 wounds back instead of 1.
2 CP; Dimensional Portal: Use this strategem whenever a unit of Deathmarks has used the Ethereal Interception ability. When the unit is done shooting, place them back in reserve. This strategem can only be used once per game.
3 CP; Puppeteer of Reality: use this strategem whenever you use the Grand Illusion ability from the C'tan shard of the Deceiver. You can now re position D6 units instead of D3.
1 CP; Star-God's power: Use this strategem whenever a C'tan unit uses a Power of the C'tan. This unit can use one power of the C'tan again for this turn.
1 CP; Trans-dimensional Beings: Use this strategem at the start of the enemy turn. Select a unit of Canoptek Wraiths; this unit is -1 to hit for this turn.
2 CP; Total Destruction; Use this strategem whenever a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers finished shooting. This unit can shoot again, but must shoot at the same target.
1 CP; Quantum Overload: Use this strategem whenever a unit with Quantum Shielding is taking damage. You can reroll the Quantum Shielding rolls for this unit for this turn.
2 CP; Death and Doom: Use this strategem whenever a unit has been targeted by a Doomscythe's Death Ray and a Doomsday Ark's Doomsday Cannon. This unit takes D6 mortal wounds.
That's all I can come up with for now!
Great input! I enjoyed this, as well. Maybe it's not too late to influence the design of the codex
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pyrothem wrote: Hey maybe we will get what the guard and orks have that would fix the RP problem.
A strat to combine units into one.
Letting you have squads of 20 or even 30 immortals or sqauds of 40 warriors meaning needing far less HQ's for buffs and making Veils of D a terrifying weapon it should be.
You will burn through CP checking moral after 2 turns on top of paying to combine so it is not over powered.
A guy can hope....
The value of resurrection orb on those units... Hngggg
This is my personal opinion for Necrons - i played many games during past 6 months.
So my top units:
1. Warriors
I personally think that warriors are better than immortals.
Warriors kill more, survive better, control objectives better.
As result removing 20x warriors is much more problematic than 10x immortal.
2. Scarabs
They are very good for screening and locking in combat.
3. 2x3 Heavy Destroyers + Destroyer lord
It's good. It does good amount of firepower to kill big stuff if you're lucky. You need to give you opponent more threat so they will not focus on them because they are very easy to kill
4. Triarch Stalker
It can be this threat - he goes forward flaming and shooting to support warriors, i like them. They often perform very good.
I'm not saying that Necrons are competitive - it's very hard to play due to issues with too high points cost and not enough heavy firepower. Necrons are bottom tier right now. But those units are a bit better than others.
Therein lies another problem with current Necrons: their dependence on unit synergy.
Not that other armies don't rely on that, too, but in our case, instead of making whatever unit good it usually just means they're no long as bad.
Eg. Doomsday Ark. By itself, not great. Paired with a Stalker, better... but not exactly amazing (same with Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord, or T.Immortals + Overlord).
Scarabs are an example of one of the few units that don't require another unit to be good... lets just hope they don't wreck them once the book comes out (though I'm predicting a point increase).
Yeah, but that just mitigates for better units with better synergy, not the removal of it, 8th is all about that exact kind of synergy, so I don;t see it being removed from the army.
1. I guess so since it doesn't say otherwise. I would compare them to psychic powers except they are done in the shooting phase.
2. This should also be possible since it's not specified as a shooting attack.
3. Times arrow says pick a visible enemy unit, so you should be able to snipe enemy characters. Don't remember if it was faq'ed. The other powers says closest enemy unit, so no character sniping.
4. Good question. I would guess you have to declare both before you resolve them since it's in the same phase.
Attacks from ranged weapons are the only attacks that must follow those 4 rules (unless specified otherwise of course). Ranged weapons are defined as certain items listed in the "Wargear Options" or "Weapons" section of the unit datasheet (Datasheet section of Core Rules, points 6 and 8). C'tan powers are not listed in either of these sections in the unit datasheets so C'tan powers are not ranged weapons but rather abilities with rules that are not described in the core rules and thus do not ascribe to these rules (Datasheet section of Core Rules, point 7).
So:
1. Yes, the ability's rule has no such restriction
2. Yes, the ability's rule has no such restriction
3. Yes, so long as you follow any other targeting restriction (ie. 'closest unit' for Antimatter Meteor and Seismic Assault)
4. No, the ability's rule has no such restriction.
In but a week I have another match planned. It will be a Cities of Death game, where infantry and Fly units are key.
Here is my 1250 point list, please let me know what you think.
Spoiler:
Battalion
HQ:
Illuminor Szeras (Warlord /w +1 LD "6)
Overlord, Void Blade /w Veil of Darkness
Troops:
14x Warriors
14x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Elite:
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer /w Time's Arrow
Fast attack:
3x Scarabs
Heavy Support
1x 3 Heavy Destroyers
I'm tempted between Szeras and a regular Cryptek + more warriors. While Szeras can make the Warrior blobs more relevant, a regular Cryptek can give the Destroyers a 5++ which they'll desperately need.
And I wish I could bring Tomb Blades, since they are Fly and will really benefit from their Nebulescope's Ignore Cover. But they are just so damn expensive....
Doctoralex wrote: So, let me bounce these idea's for Necron strategems of you Guys:
Spoiler:
1 CP; By Mine Will: Use this strategem whenever an Overlord or Catacomb Command Barge uses the 'My will be Done' or 'Wave of Command' ability. This unit can use this ability an additional time this turn.
1 CP; Enchanced Technomany; At the start of your turn, increase the range of the aura abilities of a Cryptek by 6".
2 CP; Eternal servitude; Use this strategem whenever the last model of a unit with reanimation protocols dies. Do not remove this model from the table. You can roll Reanimation Protocols for this unit at the start of your next turn.
1 CP; Mindless Machines: Use this strategem on a unit of Warriors, Immortals or Scarabs. This unit automatically passes any morale tests for this turn.
1 CP Renewed body: Use this strategem whenever you use the living metal ability on a unit. The unit gains D3 wounds back instead of 1.
If the unit has the Phylactery ability, it gains D6 wounds back instead of 1.
2 CP; Dimensional Portal: Use this strategem whenever a unit of Deathmarks has used the Ethereal Interception ability. When the unit is done shooting, place them back in reserve. This strategem can only be used once per game.
3 CP; Puppeteer of Reality: use this strategem whenever you use the Grand Illusion ability from the C'tan shard of the Deceiver. You can now re position D6 units instead of D3.
1 CP; Star-God's power: Use this strategem whenever a C'tan unit uses a Power of the C'tan. This unit can use one power of the C'tan again for this turn.
1 CP; Trans-dimensional Beings: Use this strategem at the start of the enemy turn. Select a unit of Canoptek Wraiths; this unit is -1 to hit for this turn.
2 CP; Total Destruction; Use this strategem whenever a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers finished shooting. This unit can shoot again, but must shoot at the same target.
1 CP; Quantum Overload: Use this strategem whenever a unit with Quantum Shielding is taking damage. You can reroll the Quantum Shielding rolls for this unit for this turn.
2 CP; Death and Doom: Use this strategem whenever a unit has been targeted by a Doomscythe's Death Ray and a Doomsday Ark's Doomsday Cannon. This unit takes D6 mortal wounds.
That's all I can come up with for now!
Some of these I actually liked.
Commentary Below
Spoiler:
Not sure what I would name it, but I think there needs to be a a higher level variant of the 'By my will' in there. Maybe 'We are Legion~' but make it 2CP and MWBD becomes an Aura ability within 6" for all applicable squads (or 12 for CCB).
Maybe if people think it needs further restrictions, perhaps add a stipulation where they all need to attack the same target or something, then once its gone you can refocus any remainder elsewhere etc.
Even though I liked it, the enhanced technomancy should probably be changed so that those abilities become a 6" radius instead of adding +6. Afterall our 'master' of technomancy only has a 3" aura and our 'master' with the chronometron gets a 6".
The eternal servitude strat looks like it's almost completely pointless in melee situations. "Ok this squad is wiped, im paying 2cp and laying this model down to RP on." Opponent: "Oh, well 3 inch consolidation~" *positions around it entirely so theres nowehere to rp back, even the original since there's models within 1". 2cp down the drain. Granted for shooting situations where that unit is far away from enemy forces and it's low likelihood someone can interfere yeah it seems sound.
Perhaps it needs a sister Strat~ "Service beyond death" or "Reanimation in progress, please stand by..." or something so long as it really captures that feel of the Necrons pulling their pieces together over time like in the flavor blurbs. You spend 2CP and lay the last model down, you may attempt an rp during the next RP phase or any future turns RP phase. This means the opponent has to either be paranoid and leave something sitting there and you're tying up his points, or you appear behind him and start blasting, or your forces maybe push the enemy back enough or wipe out enough stuff that you can RP to get that unit back at another point etc.
Maybe make puppeteer of reality 2d3's for higher minimum, or make it 1d3 of 1d3's, or a set number like 3 +1d3. *chuckle*
Would you have to declare 'Quantum overload' at the start of receiving damage? Or is it at any point along the line? Ex: Enemy starts shooting a doomsday ark. After failing my first armor save and QS save do I need to activate this, at which point he focuses any further firepower on another unit. Or can I go 'welp I failed one 2 wound and three 5 wound QS rolls and the DDA should die but ima spend a CP and reroll. *rolls* Ok im only down 2 now."
One seems like its daring the enemy to shoot that guy, where as the other seems kind of cheesy.
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Docs list -
Not sure the size of the board you'll be playing on or the amount of cover/elevation. But yeah if you absolutely need the hitting power of the HD then by all means use it, alternatively I might suggest phasing out the c'tan entirely and running a max squad of destroyers with 1 heavy destroyer. Either way consider giving them a dedicated Cryptek and giving that cryptek the mantle. At which point you deploy them first turn from cover/concealment (assuming you dont have init) A into Cover B at high elevation and in range for your regular destroyers. At which point you have amazing armor and 5+ invul just in case and higher RP chances and considering the wounds you are getting back per model RPing them is well worth it in my opinion.
If you're just keeping some Heavy D's for artillery support and don’t want to move closer then either don’t assign the cloak or leave it for insurance in case the enemy runs you down and you want to redeploy elsewhere. Keep that cryptek hidden, maybe a squad of 3 scarabs as guard for him so he's not plinked. Perhaps consider running a squad of deathmarks or flayed ones, some kind of unit that he can buff with invul/rp enhancements and will aid you in repelling a raid on your artillery block by phasing in.
If you bring in a CCB then you can probably have that get over to the Destroyer forces promptly to improve their shooting a bit considering its speed and it can provide some decent ground support keeping them defended.
Altenratively if you wanted to use our bikes instead those also have RP's, granted you wont get a cover bonus most likely if you place them high but since they're a flier you can move them from high elevations etc and make so it's very hard for non fliers to catch them if you keep ruin hopping. But yeah most likely the enemy will roll up on your position and you'll have to abandon the cryptek, at which point you can DS some deathmarks so he's got some protection while your bikes flank out etc.
okay I need help. What do I do against Primaris Dark Angels with Plasma rifles as Necrons when I don't have any big guns except a Stalker? Seems like I will be blown to bits without being to take down a single one
Try destroyers, I guess? Their guns are the most suited to deal with primaris, as its one of the few multidamage weapons the necrons have. Or you can try tying them up with wraiths or scarabs to buy a turn of no shooting. They don't have the fly keyword, so if they fallback they can't shoot.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Try destroyers, I guess? Their guns are the most suited to deal with primaris, as its one of the few multidamage weapons they have. Or you can try tying them up with wraiths or scarabs to buy a turn of no shooting.
They don't have the fly keyword, so if they fallback they can't shoot.
I dont have the time to get new units, so I guess I'll have to just use my scarabs for all I'm worth. I can already feel my bum being sore from those plasmas
Yeah, plasma really gives the hurt and those Primaris ones have 30" range and are at AP-4. When they pop that Weapons of Dark Ages stratagem they also do 1 addition damage.
As ChtuluSpy mentioned a large unit of Destroyers might do it. If you have a hard time getting them where they need to be use the Veil. An Overlord that gives them MWBD makes them pretty always hit what they are targeting. One problem is that if they don't do heavy damage to the Primaris unit they are in a very hard place. A 10 man Primaris unit is not an easy nut to crack with Necrons. With the stragagem and overcharged those plasmas do 3 damage.
Another option is to use Wraiths and charge them. The 3++ is a good counter to plasma.
Yes, it all depends on who shoots first Destroyers or Primaris and 6 Destroyers might only kill a couple of Primaris while the return fire from say 10 Primaris will hurt a lot.
Sadly not even gauss Immortals do a lot of damage to Primaris in cover. And when the Immortals are within rapid fire range so are the plasmas.
The best way to kill them is either to have a reliable way to get into CC or shoot them with long range high AP multiple damage weapons. Necrons really doesn't have any of this.
Perhaps Stalkers, Doomsday Arks, Heavy Destroyers and FW stuff is the best bet.
Keep in mind that regular Hellblasters only have 30" range. If you keep your Heavy Destroyers out of range, then move in and you should get a turn of shooting on them before they can shoot back. Not to mention that they will probably have to move out of cover if they wish to get into range.
I've also had some luck with a C'tan shard using Time's Arrow against Primaris. Popping a 75p model on a 3+? Hell yea!
sieGermans wrote: Aren’t Destroyers the worst thing to field vs. Plasma, though?
Surely single wound models would do far better. Say Immortal spam?
Immortals lack the damage output.
Primaris have 2 wounds with a 3+ save.
Gauss blasters reduce that save to a 5+, or a 4+ in cover.
If you get in rapid fire range, that's about 4 dead primaris out of cover, 3 dead in.
In long range you only get 10 shots, so that's 2 out of cover, 1 in.
This is not factoring in the primaris hellblasters shooting back, which can take away about 8 immortals at rapid fire range, 4 at long range. And this is without overcharge or the strategem.
Its hard to calculate how many 6 destroyers can kill, but I think its about 6 if you role good on damage.
As destroyers don't have to worry about getting rapid fire, you can just stay out of the hellblaster 15" RF range. So just 10 incoming shots from a 10 man squad. If they overcharge and use the strategem, that's 5 destroyers. Without the stratagem that's only 2
Well a C'tan has a 2 in 3 chance to kill one 40 point model per turn. Not great. The Dark Angels player will probably have more that the Hellblasters in his army too so it's not an easy army for the Necrons to beat (but what army is?).
Yes Primaris are T4 so you would need 90 shots from Immortals to kill a 10 man Hellblaster squad in cover. Although killing 4 or 5 of them in a turn would cripple the Hellblaster unit a bit. If accompanied by Azrael the Hellblasters would have 4++ save anyway.
In this case the Deciever and the Veil are our friends.
We also have Tomb Blades with gauss and nebuloscopes ignoring cover. Give half of them shield vanes and the other half shadowlooms for 5++ saves. A unit of Tomb blades wouldn't kill the Hellblasters in one turn, but with some additional supporting fire they might kil 6-7 of them crippling the unit and forcing a morale check.
So yeah, looks like the best way to take them on is to bring a 6 man Destroyer squad, with an Overlord for MWBD, a Cryptek for 5++/4+++, and a Destroyer Lord for wound rerolls.
All for a bargain price of... oh. I guess that explains why you never see Necrons near the top of anything competitive.
I hate how the only answer to "how do I handle unit X?" is almost always "Use Destroyers". Not only do I dislike the models, but it shows how much of a one-trick pony our army has become.
skoffs wrote: So yeah, looks like the best way to take them on is to bring a 6 man Destroyer squad, with an Overlord for MWBD, a Cryptek for 5++/4+++, and a Destroyer Lord for wound rerolls.
All for a bargain price of... oh. I guess that explains why you never see Necrons near the top of anything competitive.
Thats putting all the eggs in one Basket though. In my opinion, destroyers really dont need a 5++ from the Cryptek. They are easy enough to keep in cover, giving them 2+ save. Apart from the earlier mentioned Hellsblasters and maaaybe a Fire Prism, there isnt thet much ap-4 out of meltas, which are shorted ranged.
Though I suppose there are ignores cover weapons....
Well, another possible unit is the doomsday ark. It has longer range than hellblasters and packs quite a punch. -5AP means no saves, even in cover, and S10 D6 damage means that its wounding on 2+ and has a high chance of 1 hit killing a primaris.
The problem with Destroyers (as everything else in the Necron index) is that they are expensive, don't have enough firepower and are rather fragile.
The positives are that they are Infantry, have fly, ignore to hit penalty from moving, can reroll ones to hit and can be buffed by characters.
However If you compare them with for example the Hellblasters they are not that bad. 10 Hellblasters are 400 points, 6 Destroyers (incl HD) is 390 points. The biggest drawback for the Destroyers in this case is the S5 gauss cannons. They will struggle against anything above T5 and that 1D3 damage is too unreliable.
S7 feels like a much more fitting level for the gauss cannon, in the middle between the blaster and the heavy. In 7th it could compensate low S with the gauss rule. No such advantage any more.
Idk, seems a bit high to me. I mean, heavy gauss are S9. S6 seems like the better value, imo. Not too high and not too low.
In fact, Gauss cannons were originally S6 until 5th came along. They were also AP4 rather than AP3, mind you, but they also had longer range and one more shot.
EnTyme wrote: I hate how the only answer to "how do I handle unit X?" is almost always "Use Destroyers".
That's not usually something people suggest (reasons have already been stated in thread).
My suggestion of taking them was a joke. I guess I should have included a "/s" to make that more clear.
EnTyme wrote: I hate how the only answer to "how do I handle unit X?" is almost always "Use Destroyers".
That's not usually something people suggest (reasons have already been stated in thread).
My suggestion of taking them was a joke. I guess I should have included a "/s" to make that more clear.
The correct answer is "Have you tried playing Imperium? I hear Dark Angels are pretty good."
torblind wrote: 5+ RP each turn is already stronger than FNP
I don't know about that.
With FNP the guys are still alive and able to contribute to the battle. With RP they're in time out until they're okayed to rejoin.
Surely that would account for something.
torblind wrote: 5+ RP each turn is already stronger than FNP
I don't know about that.
With FNP the guys are still alive and able to contribute to the battle. With RP they're in time out until they're okayed to rejoin.
Surely that would account for something.
Sure, and multiwound models only get the roll once all their wounds are up, whereas FNP rolls for every wound, unless for multidamage wounds which complicate matters furthermore.
Threatening to come back every turn has a tactical impact, much like a unit that is in September strike reserve is technically on pause yet forces the opponent to adapt.
I know a great solution to all of the necron problems, give them a special rule that allows them to have 25% more points than the opponent to balance it out. Makes sense because they use their tomb worlds and gak, high tech and all that jazz you know
That sounds like a terrible idea that doesn't at all solve the inherent problems in a necron list. Its the game design equivalent of using duct tape to fix a nuclear reactor. Its not clever, not elegant and reeks of laziness and incompetence.
You can represent the high tech of the necrons in much better ways, such as giving access to all sorts of interesting gadgets (like they had before), giving them better stats and weapons at a high points cost (sort of like what they did with Custodes, actually. In fact, necrons should probably play similar to custodes; few in number, but tough and packs a punch)
Numbers does not represent tech. It just represents that there are a lot of them. Such a rule would be better for nids and orks.
Wasnt the most serious idea, I'm just annoyed at how a company who probably have people hired just to balance the game cant seem to fix such an iconic race as the necrons. Why the hell are necrons so fething bad right now? Are gw braindead? Can they not make every race at least somewhat viable? Hate this gak
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Just wait for the codex. Codex armies are considerably stronger than index armies, and necrons are an index army.
I think most people know this, its more the waiting that almost leaves Necrons in a current state of limbo - esp since their current state is underpowered.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Just wait for the codex. Codex armies are considerably stronger than index armies, and necrons are an index army.
Before any codex came out and all armies were index armies we we the weak in comparrison. Just because we haven't had our codex yet doesn't mean mirqacurously all will be well when we do have it. Remember that their playtesters were telling GW how amazing and strong our index army is and have been until way after the codex would have been set in stone. We will be stronger than now with our codex (dear god we better be!) but could still be bottom of the barrel compared to the others.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Just wait for the codex. Codex armies are considerably stronger than index armies, and necrons are an index army.
Before any codex came out and all armies were index armies we we the weak in comparrison. Just because we haven't had our codex yet doesn't mean mirqacurously all will be well when we do have it. Remember that their playtesters were telling GW how amazing and strong our index army is and have been until way after the codex would have been set in stone. We will be stronger than now with our codex (dear god we better be!) but could still be bottom of the barrel compared to the others.
That's true. The index army was pretty weak in comparison to the others. Hopefully the playtesters learned their lesson and made the right changes.
Doctoralex wrote: As a former Guard player, I decided to make some cards to represent our most common buffs (since Guard have cards like these for their orders).
Feel free to print them and use them!
You've misspelled ballistic there on one of the cards mate
Doctoralex wrote: As a former Guard player, I decided to make some cards to represent our most common buffs (since Guard have cards like these for their orders).
Feel free to print them and use them!
You've misspelled ballistic there on one of the cards mate
I'm considering building 2 squads of 10 Deathmarks or 4 squads of 5...not sure. 8th edition seems like an extreme edition in my limited play. For taking out a key character, counterstriking or grabbing objectives, 20 Deathmarks should do ok right? 40 shots, should average at least 6 mortal wounds plus regular wounds on a target/squad. We could use the veil to support them to really help with some tactics/movement we lack. Would that work?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Just wait for the codex. Codex armies are considerably stronger than index armies, and necrons are an index army.
Before any codex came out and all armies were index armies we we the weak in comparrison. Just because we haven't had our codex yet doesn't mean mirqacurously all will be well when we do have it. Remember that their playtesters were telling GW how amazing and strong our index army is and have been until way after the codex would have been set in stone. We will be stronger than now with our codex (dear god we better be!) but could still be bottom of the barrel compared to the others.
That's true. The index army was pretty weak in comparison to the others. Hopefully the playtesters learned their lesson and made the right changes.
It's feeling like the later your codex comes out the better it is, really; compare the Space Marine and Mechanicus codexes to Eldar and Tyranids. The former feel rather phoned in and are largely competitive on the back of some units that are just particularly strong without any real synergy with what their codexes brought to the table, the latter ride high and are much improved on a codex that brings stratagems that make the armies much stronger than the sum of their parts. I know as a Thousand Sons player I'm already seeing some wonderful solutions to our Index problems that would not have been solved by simply moving around points values.
With our characters lacking so much in the way of synergy, I have a feeling that they are going to change a lot from the index. Even so, they definitely need to drop points off a ton of units and dear God, please make the Monolith a good unit!
Flyers are generally good counters against hellblasters (the minus 1 to hit makes OC very dangerous), and while our flyers aren't anything to write home about, a doom scythe will probably work.
I'd also count on the doom scythe getting strafing run (+1 to hit units on the ground, which should offset the heavy penalty) in the codex, and I'd put 50/50 odds on the death ray upgraded to heavy d6 as that is a potential solution to a lot of our anti-vehicle issues.
Nope, any roll of a 1 after modifiers, so it's a 1 in 3 chance of killing yourself against flyers. The true masters of minus to hit though are the tyranids, if you run plasma against them just count on never overcharging.
Not really a tactics, but quick question. I have the lord from the Catacomb command barge on foot, without the barge. Should I just field him as an overlord with a staff of light? a lord? Perhaps a cryptec? I already have a crap ton of lords and overlords, and no cryptecs, so I am wondering if that would be fround upon.
Dynas wrote: Not really a tactics, but quick question. I have the lord from the Catacomb command barge on foot, without the barge. Should I just field him as an overlord with a staff of light? a lord? Perhaps a cryptec? I already have a crap ton of lords and overlords, and no cryptecs, so I am wondering if that would be fround upon.
Swap out his head with a spare Deathmarks Head and a bit more of a dynamic pose, and I bet no one would notice.
v0iddrgn wrote: No mention of a Necron codex lately. I'm getting irritated. I can't make plans for purchases or even play my army until I get some new info. Uncool.
Most recent rumors are that the Necron dex comes out in March. There's also rumors of a Necrons vs AdMech box set coming out around the same time, though I would take that with an entire barrel of salt...
Caauusse I'd like to field it on the table at my LFGS, if it would be a full C'tan we'd be talking a 3000p model (and thate being modest!) which we could only field in apocalypse games.
Trazyn - "So you know that 'Machine Spirit' you guys are always going on about? Turns out you're all Xeno cultists. Oh btw, we're taking all those weird, emotionless guys you keep around to combat psykers. I think we'll call them 'Pariahs'. Has a nice ring to it, don't you think?"
We have a few sources saying march for a codex, right after tau.
We also know there is a Tau vs. Admech campaign coming up (we've seen the slides), so unless Necrons and Tau put a ring on it, I don't think the Necron vs admech will happen because two admech campaigns that close together would be weird.
The idea of Tau and Necrons teaming up is interesting, and both two of them have unfinished business with the admech. There are some issues with who is joining whose side, and both Tau and Necrons are planning on being top dog after the IoM goes down, so it would be very much an alliance of convenience. Game wise it would be wonderful, both two of them don't have allies and both of them need allies in order to compete with imperial soup.
I'd like to hear what you guys think of the upcoming Custodes codex and what we can do against them. Two of my friends at the local club said that they were gonna collect them.
While I wouldn't tailor my list against them, maybe it's good to have a look at what we have that might work against these boys in gold:
-Destroyers. While I'm normally not a big fan of the regular Destroyer, their weapons are ideal for taking down the regular Custodians. The T6 bikes on the other hand will require something a bit tougher. Also, anything higher than AP-2 is wasted against all their invuln saves.
-The Nightbringer, I'm not too sure. While he can absolutely shred multiple-wound infantry, his high AP is wasted against all those invuln saves. Not to mention that he will probably only last one turn in close combat against them.
Anti-matter Meteor is a nice source of Mortal Wounds though, who are precious against the Custodes and are not a psychic power, thus they won't get a 6+ FnP.
-Deathmarks. Again, Mortal Wounds will be our friend. Since the Custodes will no doubt be deep-striking in a lot of their units, the Deathmarks could take care of one of the standard-bearers. Be it the -1 to hit or the +1 attack one.
Although, with 3-4 wounds (don't know if the bearers get an extra one) and T5, it will be quite difficult for the Deathmarks to land a kill....
-Triach Stalker /w Particle Caster. An unsual gun choice for the Stalker, but the high S, low AP and D3 damage will make it ideal for taking down the Custodian Bikers. The reroll 1's to hit will also be a warm welcome, since you will be focusing firing on a squad.
-Tesla weapons: I'm not too sure about these ones. As I mentioned before, high AP weaponry is wasted against the Custodes. However, since they will no doubt blob up near the -1 to hit banner, Tesla can become useless as well.
-Warrior screen vs Scarabs: I also think we should use Warriors instead of Scarabs as a screen unit. All their weapons do multiple wounds, so that will be a lot of damage wasted on a regular Warrior. Throw in Szeras and give them +1 S (+1 T is wasted, since all of them will be at least S6 or higher) and they might actually take down a Custodian or two.
Orikan could work too, giving the Warriors a 5++ in close combat and eventually becoming pretty beefy in close-combat himself.
I think warriors are way to go. They are not useless in melee with S4 and nice durability. If we would add Traveller they'll have 2 attacks each. Scarabs are nice vs single damage weapons.
I have 40 warriors and making 20 more so will end up 3x20 warriors blobs
You need a Minimum AP -1 to fight custodes, 1 in 6 is too painful. Str 5 is helpful, so maybe tomb blades? fast enough to kite foot custodes, and as long as you can avoid CC they will have pretty meh shooting.
Harley the main news from GW is that they expect most codex to be out by mid-way this year. There were rumours/hopes of a Christmas and then a January release but they've passed and right now hopes are pinned on March being the rough release month for Necron codex .
Got my first proper solo game in last night! I've got back into 40k with 8th after 10+ years, but have only played little skirmishes and multiplayer games as we all build our armies up.
It was a 1k game against Drukhari, and we rolled up the No Mercy mission. Bit of a bloodbath to be honest, at the end of it my opponent conceded as they were down to their 2 HQ choices and I had lost 3 Immortals and a single Deathmark!
Appreciate Necrons are in a tough place overall at the moment, I was lucky to get a good match up and mission (and my opponent had more than their helping of bad luck; watching 12 splinter cannon hits ping off and cause just 1 wound which was saved was particularly rough). Got a handful more models on order (CCB and GA) so hopefully might even be able to push the point values of our games up soon!
Necrons are in a rough spot right know and we might get an anouncement for the codex at the Las Vegas Open this weekend. Considering the Custodes realease backlash GW will most likely try to release at least one Xenos codex next.
For me personally I don't mind having to wait for a few months. It's better that they take their time and give us a good codex. During that time I can focus more on the hobby side.
Unitled:
Good to hear about your succesful game.
The CCB is a good unit and the GA is ok so they are both good buys. Remember to magnetize the GA so that you can turn it into a DDA.
I would not buy too many models before the codex is released.
Eh, I personally wouldn't bother with magnetizing. Way too much effort on a model that's already a real bitch to paint and build. You're probably going to want to have a GA and a DDA anyway, one for warrior support and one for AT.
Its as if GW really hates necron players, so they gave us new vehicles that are an exercise in frustration to build. At least the end product looks nice, if inconsistent and illogical with their background.
Yup, I've focused on stuff that is generally useful (warriors/immortals etc.) and stuff I think looks cool so I would want to buy/paint/use no matter how 'good' it is (stalker/deathmarks). I only have 1.5k points all told mind, so it's not like I've gone *fully* in!
unitled wrote: Yup, I've focused on stuff that is generally useful (warriors/immortals etc.) and stuff I think looks cool so I would want to buy/paint/use no matter how 'good' it is (stalker/deathmarks). I only have 1.5k points all told mind, so it's not like I've gone *fully* in!
Sounds like a good plan. Soon you will have 5000 points of unpainted and partially built models
Its as if GW really hates necron players, so they gave us new vehicles that are an exercise in frustration to build. At least the end product looks nice, if inconsistent and illogical with their background.
I think that's why as GW has expanded and adjusted the background they've brought more of the living mindset back to the Necrons. It seems clear that whilst they can produce robots which think and operate for themselves (canoptek) the Necrons themselves still think and act like living creatures. Hence why many of their units have pilots.
As for logic (ergo why have a transport that has no physical protection of its occupants) lets face it - most fantasy/scifi wargame stuff is pretty illogical It's rule of cool all the way!
Also i'm sure when the ghost ark was dreamt up someone was watching Phantom Menace
Except for when you consider the monolith, which is what how a race who is obsessed with self-preservation would design a vehicle. Even as a "living" mindset it still isn't consistent with their theme, as you'd think they would incorporate themselves into the vehicle, being machines / AI and all. If SHODAN can control a space station, a necron can too. Its why I like the concept of Destroyers and Tomb Blades (though not necessarily the tomb blade model), as they reflect that concept.
I wouldn't mind it if they came out and said that the ark / barge varients were repurposed civilian vehicles (like the ghost ark), as that would make sense to me. As the necrontyr / necrons were engaged in a brutal and desperate war with the Old Ones, it would make sense they would adapt their civilian vehicles to be on the battlefield. But as dedicated combat vehicles? Nonsense.
There was a gap between the release of the rules and the models for the scythes. I almost bought these really nice cylon models for them. I'm still considering replacing my current scythes with them depending on the new codex and availability.
Oh wow, yeah. I can see how a Cylon raider can pass for a scythe
Even more so than the death glider from SG1, which I originally thought was their source of inspiration. And none of them have that stupid hole in their cockpits. I don't care if they are robots. Its still stupid, and a race of logical machines who are derived from a race obsessed with avoiding death should know better. It is possible to cover up the hole, at least, which is what I did...poorly Forge World's design is better, imo.
Anyway, tactics. So I've been thinking, shouldn't C'tan be nearly auto-include now that units like Custodes are getting introduced, with their high defences? It seems that mortal wounds are a good solution to them, and C'tan are the only reliable source of Mortal wounds in the necron arsenal, unless you want to play the lottery with deathmarks. Most factions use psykers for that purpose, and necrons use C'tan instead. Which is an interesting little bit of convergence. Maybe Cryteks will fulfil the same role as psykers in the next codex, in that they are given something to do in the psychic phase. Hopefully without warp charges.
I honestly don't mind gloom prisms on spyders, they are an interesting utility unit, able to repair vehicles, reinforce scarab units, and able to deny the witch. My biggest wish for them is that other canoptek units could act as bodyguards for them. Imagine scarabs working for spyders like drones do for tau. It's that or you could make spyders characters.
Grimgold wrote: I honestly don't mind gloom prisms on spyders, they are an interesting utility unit, able to repair vehicles, reinforce scarab units, and able to deny the witch. My biggest wish for them is that other canoptek units could act as bodyguards for them. Imagine scarabs working for spyders like drones do for tau. It's that or you could make spyders characters.
Could just give them a rule that acts like the Character rule e.g. can only be targeted if it's the closest model to an enemy unit.
Issue with Spyders atm is that they are an easy "First Blood" target, don't spawn Scarabs like they used to, don't bring an buffs or healing for Canoptek units and only denying 1 pysker power for an 81pt model w/ Gloom Prism.
If they denied 3 powers, healed/buffed Canoptek units, reproduced Scarabs without taking damage and weren't to easily killed then I imagine a lot more people would take them.
for the Spyders: Yea it's tough to make them work. On one hand you want to keep them close to your vehicle so you can repair it, on the other hand you want to keep it close to the front so it can Deny the Witch/restore Scarabs. And like people mentioned before, it dies VERY quick to focus fire.
In fact, it's whole Scarab restoration ability isn't all that great. Scarabs are 9/10 times either
A: Min squads who sit on objectives.
B: A screening shield for your C'tan Shard, meaning they will be going too fast for your Spyder to keep up.
The thing with Spyders is that they do multiple things without excelling in anything.
Should they create Scarabs? (Terrible)
Should they deny powers? (Ok I guess)
Should they repair? (Ok i guess, but then they hang back. So might be out of range for gloom prism, particle beamers and scarabs.
Should they be a weapons platform? (Not enough firepower)
Although it's interesting that it can be tailored to your needs. Repair spyder, anti psycher, Scarab repair, gun platform.
Giving them the character keyword (as mentioned by other posters) would be a really good solution. However I'm not sure if it would be enough since it's hard to find the points to include it currently.
Have anyone used them in 8th? If so, what was their role?
1: while melee isn't that dangerous in 8th, there is some downright killy stuff sometimes. Genestealers, Boy mob, the upcoming Custodes etc.
However, all these units quite heavily rely on aura-buffing characters: the Brood Lord for the 'Stealers, Banner Nob for the Boyz etc etc.
So I was thinking.... why not drop Nemesor Zahndrekh among your gun line? His Counter Tactics, which disables all aura's from a selected enemy character within 12", could severely compromise the oncoming melee for your opponent.
The only problem is... it's at the START of your opponents turn. The enemy character will probably be out of 12" since he still has to move up and charge towards you. Hm....
and secondly:
If you guys had to Veil of Darkness a 20 man blob of Warriors, what would you rather take with them: A cryptek or an Overlord?
The Cryptek greatly enhances their survivability, but an Overlord with MWBD might make them lethal enough so that they won't be ignored...
So far I've been running 20-man blobs and, even when upgraded to BS2+ by Szeras, they simply aren't big enough of a threat unless they are in rapid-fire range.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cmdr_Sune wrote: The thing with Spyders is that they do multiple things without excelling in anything.
Should they create Scarabs? (Terrible)
Should they deny powers? (Ok I guess)
Should they repair? (Ok i guess, but then they hang back. So might be out of range for gloom prism, particle beamers and scarabs.
Should they be a weapons platform? (Not enough firepower)
Although it's interesting that it can be tailored to your needs. Repair spyder, anti psycher, Scarab repair, gun platform.
Giving them the character keyword (as mentioned by other posters) would be a really good solution. However I'm not sure if it would be enough since it's hard to find the points to include it currently.
Have anyone used them in 8th? If so, what was their role?
It's honestly, when you think about it, terrible and/or overpriced for any of those tasks:
-Creating Scarabs: as mentioned before, they are either a min-squad sitting on an objective, far away screening a C'tan or as a screen for your Warrior Blob against an oncoming dedicated melee unit.
Even íf your opponent plays a melee-heavy list, it is unlikely the Scarabs will be alive after one round of combat against such a unit.
-Deny the Witch: The most important powers are either buffs or teleportation powers, all casted well beyond your 24" deny bubble. Any close-range powers are either too difficult to stop (Magnus with his 2+ to casting rolls) or too insignificant to justify the Spyder's point cost.
-Repairing: While repairing D3 +1 (for Living Metal) sounds nice, is it worth a wooping 84 points?! Remember, that is ALL he is going to do. He will be too far away to deny and/or restore Scarabs if you put the Spyder on repair duty.
I was at the panel. They announced DEldar, Tau, and Necrons in that order. That's not necessarily release order but worth noting.
I asked about Dynasties and they mentioned there was a "-1 Rend Dynasty", details of which still unclear. Would make Gauss pretty scary though, but still need point adjustments.
Requizen wrote: I was at the panel. They announced DEldar, Tau, and Necrons in that order. That's not necessarily release order but worth noting.
I asked about Dynasties and they mentioned there was a "-1 Rend Dynasty", details of which still unclear. Would make Gauss pretty scary though, but still need point adjustments.
Rend is the name for AP in AoS, I still catch myself using it, so might be a mistake, or at a guess it could be a reference to the new gauss mechanic, since rend was a on a roll of 6 it's extra AP.
So maybe they took the idea of on sixes you get an extra wound, and a specific dynasty does it on a 5 or 6.
Doctoralex wrote: I'd like to hear what you guys think of the upcoming Custodes codex and what we can do against them. Two of my friends at the local club said that they were gonna collect them.
While I wouldn't tailor my list against them, maybe it's good to have a look at what we have that might work against these boys in gold:
-Destroyers. While I'm normally not a big fan of the regular Destroyer, their weapons are ideal for taking down the regular Custodians. The T6 bikes on the other hand will require something a bit tougher. Also, anything higher than AP-2 is wasted against all their invuln saves.
-The Nightbringer, I'm not too sure. While he can absolutely shred multiple-wound infantry, his high AP is wasted against all those invuln saves. Not to mention that he will probably only last one turn in close combat against them.
Anti-matter Meteor is a nice source of Mortal Wounds though, who are precious against the Custodes and are not a psychic power, thus they won't get a 6+ FnP.
-Deathmarks. Again, Mortal Wounds will be our friend. Since the Custodes will no doubt be deep-striking in a lot of their units, the Deathmarks could take care of one of the standard-bearers. Be it the -1 to hit or the +1 attack one.
Although, with 3-4 wounds (don't know if the bearers get an extra one) and T5, it will be quite difficult for the Deathmarks to land a kill....
-Triach Stalker /w Particle Caster. An unsual gun choice for the Stalker, but the high S, low AP and D3 damage will make it ideal for taking down the Custodian Bikers. The reroll 1's to hit will also be a warm welcome, since you will be focusing firing on a squad.
-Tesla weapons: I'm not too sure about these ones. As I mentioned before, high AP weaponry is wasted against the Custodes. However, since they will no doubt blob up near the -1 to hit banner, Tesla can become useless as well.
-Warrior screen vs Scarabs: I also think we should use Warriors instead of Scarabs as a screen unit. All their weapons do multiple wounds, so that will be a lot of damage wasted on a regular Warrior. Throw in Szeras and give them +1 S (+1 T is wasted, since all of them will be at least S6 or higher) and they might actually take down a Custodian or two.
Orikan could work too, giving the Warriors a 5++ in close combat and eventually becoming pretty beefy in close-combat himself.
What do you guys think?
Destroyers and to a lesser extent Tomb Blades/Immortals with Gauss are how I would approach them. I hadn't focused on Necrons for a long time but a codex will get the creative juices flowing again at least.
The Cryptek looks weird when carried by that baby Spyder. At first I was thinking if the Spyder could be a new Wargear giving the Cryptek more movement, but if you look at the Crypteks feet, they seem to be in such an angle that he would lean backwards if put on a base. It might be that there are another leg option. I really hope so.
As for the staff he is carrying, it reminds a lot of Szeras staff and he has a Eldritch Lance (Assault 1, S8, AP-4, Dam D6). I would guess that there will be several staff options and...
... Harbringers are back... in town!
I would also guess that Crypteks are older and wiser than other Necrons since they have beards.
Harbinger of Despair: Also known as psychomancers, they are masters of influencing the organic mind and psychological warfare. With their Abyssal Staves they can spread madness among enemy ranks. They are also capable of causing dread in their enemies and of dematerialising and rematerialising their comrades.
Harbinger of Destruction: Also known as plasmancers, they are masters of raw energy and can shoot devastating blasts of furious energy and pulses of light that illuminate the entire battlefield from their Eldritch Lances in battle. Their gaze of flickering witch-fire falters the onset of even the bravest attacker.
Harbinger of Eternity: Also known as chronomancers, they are masters of time and knowledge of the future flows through their every act. They can rarely be trusted as they always have an idea of how any event will unfold. They wield Aeonstaves with sapphire heads, capable of trapping a enemy in a bubble of slow-time, a Chronometron capable of changing time, and the ability to crystallize time around themselves in a a way that blocks their enemies' blows.
Harbinger of Transmogrification: Practicing an art once known as alchemy, they specialize in the transmutation of matter from one form to another and to animate the inanimate. They use the Harp of Dissonance that can change Adamantium to brittle glass with a single booming bass note, the Seismic Crucible to induce seismic activity in rock, metal and air, and the Tremorstave causes quakes that knock enemies away.
Harbinger of The Storm: Also known as ethermancers, they are capable of manipulating the weather against their foes. The Voltaic Staff which shoots lightning, and the Ether Crystal summons pressures wave and bolts of lightning to buffet their enemies. They are also capable of calling upon emerald Lightning Fields to protect their allies.
Yeah, the Harbingers were one of the few things I liked in 5th ed.
Pity they dropped them in later editions.
I like the new cryptek, but the spider its floating on...idk, I don't think its necessary.
They had to release one just as I was converting one from a warrior too, lol.
The Crypteck isn't being supported by the spider; instead the spider is clutching to the ground holding at bag the Cryptecks built in anti-gravity as he floats along behind supported by raw mag....phsy... technopower!
Also whilst its only one release this does at least mean that nearly every regular unit is now in plastic - which is fantastic - it leaves only hero units in finecast (and the flayed ones).
Thank fuq for a new Cryptek model. Hate Failcast and metal models with a passion. Looking forward to the new plastic model.
One new/redone model gives me hope that all our Failcast/metal models will be revamped. I would rather a whole line of Plastic then new modles tbh.
Also, anyone else notice that the Cryptek is connected to the small Spyder? Maybe it is a hint that Crypteks (or, certain Crypteks) can buff/help Canoptek units.
The hype is real, I imagine more info will be announced at the end of the LVO.
1: while melee isn't that dangerous in 8th, there is some downright killy stuff sometimes. Genestealers, Boy mob, the upcoming Custodes etc.
However, all these units quite heavily rely on aura-buffing characters: the Brood Lord for the 'Stealers, Banner Nob for the Boyz etc etc.
So I was thinking.... why not drop Nemesor Zahndrekh among your gun line? His Counter Tactics, which disables all aura's from a selected enemy character within 12", could severely compromise the oncoming melee for your opponent.
The only problem is... it's at the START of your opponents turn. The enemy character will probably be out of 12" since he still has to move up and charge towards you. Hm....
On the topic of genestealers:
They dont need the broodlord that much. They can mulch mostly everything they want, as long they can reach it in close combat.
Its a case of playstyle, depending on the tyranid player.
Most tyranid armies only include broodlords when the genestealers start on the board, or are jormungandr hive fleet because of the delivery system it provides.
Overall:
I dont think you will get assaulted too often from heavy supported GEQ or other stuff, which is not capable of handling their target in melee by themself. For example Bulgryns, berserkers, genestealers, or characters who are a pain all by themself are not that dependent from aura buffs, when assaulting most necron infantry.
And as you mentioned, its hard to get them in range for this trick before they slaughter through your ranks.
Requizen wrote: I was at the panel. They announced DEldar, Tau, and Necrons in that order. That's not necessarily release order but worth noting.
I asked about Dynasties and they mentioned there was a "-1 Rend Dynasty", details of which still unclear. Would make Gauss pretty scary though, but still need point adjustments.
Rend is the name for AP in AoS, I still catch myself using it, so might be a mistake, or at a guess it could be a reference to the new gauss mechanic, since rend was a on a roll of 6 it's extra AP.
So maybe they took the idea of on sixes you get an extra wound, and a specific dynasty does it on a 5 or 6.
Nah pretty sure he said AP and I just have Sigmar on the mind.
Odrankt wrote: Thank fuq for a new Cryptek model. Hate Failcast and metal models with a passion. Looking forward to the new plastic model.
One new/redone model gives me hope that all our Failcast/metal models will be revamped. I would rather a whole line of Plastic then new modles tbh.
Also, anyone else notice that the Cryptek is connected to the small Spyder? Maybe it is a hint that Crypteks (or, certain Crypteks) can buff/help Canoptek units.
The hype is real, I imagine more info will be announced at the end of the LVO.
I think this may be a named character not the new Cryptek model specifically. It would make sense to have another one, given we have 4 named Overlords and only 2 named Crypteks. If they're giving Dynasty's subfaction specific traits then I reckon he belongs to one of the other Dynasties (not Sautekh or Nihilakh). Based on the model you can sort of assume two things; this Cryptek is fast, which is great, and that he has an affinity for Canoptek units. Joining the dots, seems like this guy could keep up with your Wraiths and give them RP rolls as well, that'd be awesome.
The spyder could be his way of transporting a gloom prism, which might be an optional piece of wargear for him. The harbingers mean I'll just make sure I pick up a few of the model. I hope they make the lords and overlords cool enough to hang out with the crypteks.
A dynasty with an additional -1 on AP would be great. I wonder if our dynasty traits only will affect infantry or all units similiar to Craftworlds. At first though -1 AP seems OP, but there might be some limitation similiar to Raven guards -1 to hit does not apply within 12". Perhaps the AP modifier will be within a certain range.
Tesla would be really nasty with ap-1 and a barges would be viable.
Odrankt wrote: Thank fuq for a new Cryptek model. Hate Failcast and metal models with a passion. Looking forward to the new plastic model.
One new/redone model gives me hope that all our Failcast/metal models will be revamped. I would rather a whole line of Plastic then new modles tbh.
Also, anyone else notice that the Cryptek is connected to the small Spyder? Maybe it is a hint that Crypteks (or, certain Crypteks) can buff/help Canoptek units.
The hype is real, I imagine more info will be announced at the end of the LVO.
I think this may be a named character not the new Cryptek model specifically. It would make sense to have another one, given we have 4 named Overlords and only 2 named Crypteks. If they're giving Dynasty's subfaction specific traits then I reckon he belongs to one of the other Dynasties (not Sautekh or Nihilakh). Based on the model you can sort of assume two things; this Cryptek is fast, which is great, and that he has an affinity for Canoptek units. Joining the dots, seems like this guy could keep up with your Wraiths and give them RP rolls as well, that'd be awesome.
If it is a new Named Cryptek then that's even better. Hopefully not Dynasty Specific though. Orikan and Toholk are good <dynasty> Crypteks but I think a Cryptek like Szeras would be a lot better as it would allow us to use him/her in any detachment without restriction. I am also totally gonna buy one and convert it (not use his Spyder) and use it as a Generic Cryptek. I will probably pick up 2 of them plus the Collector's codex when they are released. Just in case it is a Named Cryptek.
I am not sure about him giving RP rolls, we already got a stratgem to allow Canoptek Unit(s) the chance to RP once a turn for 2CPs. If anything, he might give a 5+ invul to Canoptek units it buff them like Szeras buffs Warriors and Immortals.
I personally want him/her to be an anti-pysker Cryptek. It would be cool if they had access to Necron Science that was Anti-Pysker just like the Gauss Pylons when activated on Cadia. Maybe something like "enemy pyskers within 24" have a -2 to their pysker powers". That kind of buff would almost be better then having the ability to deny them (or, team it with a GP Spyder and we are talking bussiness).
Based on the model this new cryptek looks like he might be able to fly and I hope that means a mobility bonus as well, because that will be great news for units like destroyers and praetorians.
Honestly, folks, the prior case of trying to ‘inform’ the Codex writing team is clearly over.
Let’s not spoil what may be an amazing Codex with speculation that can only prove a source of disappointment when the eventual outcome is different (though not necessarily worse!).
Besides, we have two months at least before the Codex is table legal, and loads of events between now and then!
Has anyone figured out useful synergies at 2k to justify a Brigade?
I'm sure if we bitch and wishlist hard enough, they'll change the codex at the last minute.
The first batch of codices may have whiteout and entries written in crayon as a consequence
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'm sure if we bitch and wishlist hard enough, they'll change the codex at the last minute.
The first batch of codices may have whiteout and entries written in crayon as a consequence
sieGermans wrote: Honestly, folks, the prior case of trying to ‘inform’ the Codex writing team is clearly over.
Let’s not spoil what may be an amazing Codex with speculation that can only prove a source of disappointment when the eventual outcome is different (though not necessarily worse!).
Besides, we have two months at least before the Codex is table legal, and loads of events between now and then!
Has anyone figured out useful synergies at 2k to justify a Brigade?
The great thing about our current index entries is that just about anything will be an upgrade, so I doubt speculation will put much of a damper on that. besides most of us are pretty curious how they fixed Necrons, and idle speculation is fun.
Speaking of speculation, it sounds like they listened to us on tomb world deployment because they were saying necrons will be much more mobile in the codex.
Speaking of speculation, it sounds like they listened to us on tomb world deployment because they were saying necrons will be much more mobile in the codex.
Where did they say that? Apparently there's a Q&A but I don't know where that is.
Speaking of speculation, it sounds like they listened to us on tomb world deployment because they were saying necrons will be much more mobile in the codex.
Where did they say that? Apparently there's a Q&A but I don't know where that is.
One of the guys that attended the QA said it, and it was mentioned in the comments section of this page:
sieGermans wrote: Honestly, folks, the prior case of trying to ‘inform’ the Codex writing team is clearly over.
Let’s not spoil what may be an amazing Codex with speculation that can only prove a source of disappointment when the eventual outcome is different (though not necessarily worse!).
Besides, we have two months at least before the Codex is table legal, and loads of events between now and then!
Has anyone figured out useful synergies at 2k to justify a Brigade?
The great thing about our current index entries is that just about anything will be an upgrade, so I doubt speculation will put much of a damper on that. besides most of us are pretty curious how they fixed Necrons, and idle speculation is fun.
Speaking of speculation, it sounds like they listened to us on tomb world deployment because they were saying necrons will be much more mobile in the codex.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a stratagem that uses tomb world deployment, so you'd be able to beam in your units even if all of your transports have been destroyed.
They do seem to like their spend a CP and deep strike a unit stratagems, so I can see us getting something like that, probably with the requirement that the unit start in tomb world deploy.
So long as it's on topic, maybe. Otherwise, if people just want to post hopes and how they would fix things and wish list, there are more appropriate threads to have those discussions.
So long as it's on topic, maybe. Otherwise, if people just want to post hopes and how they would fix things and wish list, there are more appropriate threads to have those discussions.
Not sure what more you can expect here until there's news on the new codex.
sieGermans wrote: Has anyone figured out an effective target for Annihilation Barges?
Presumably it’s low armour, Toughness 3 or 6 that come in squads of 5? Do any armies play anything like that?
Aye, the Barge is in a weird spot. I think the 'least worst' use of it is the following:
The Tesla Destructor with T7 is best used as light anti-vehicle and can be combo'd witha Triarch Stalker. The problem with this is;
A: the Tesla Destructor will still only wound on a 4+ and give your opponents vehicle a regular save.
B: the Triarch Stalker will no doubt shoot its Heat Ray or Heavy Gauss Cannon at something tougher then a T7 vehicle.
For its secondary weapon id go with the Gauss Blaster for some anti-MEQ support.
I can't think of any good targets for the Annihilation barge. Anything it's "good" at killing doesn't care because there's more where that came from, e.g. Gaunts or Conscripts.
The issue with the Gauss Cannon on the A.Barge is that, if you move you won't be able to fire it at full efficiency (where as you can with the Tesla Cannon).
At the moment none of our vehicles are all that great. Stalker is probably the best one, but it's not exactly an auto include.
Not sure how they're going to fix them in the codex apart from a price drop (but even then, would making them cheaper mean they would be better if it meant they did the exact same thing they're doing now?)
skoffs wrote: The issue with the Gauss Cannon on the A.Barge is that, if you move you won't be able to fire it at full efficiency (where as you can with the Tesla Cannon).
At the moment none of our vehicles are all that great. Stalker is probably the best one, but it's not exactly an auto include. Not sure how they're going to fix them in the codex apart from a price drop (but even then, would making them cheaper mean they would be better if it meant they did the exact same thing they're doing now?)
They said major changes, here is my guesses:
Things that seem like no-brainers: 1.) Doom Scythe gets strafing run (+1 to hit units without fly, all of the old assault flyers got it) 2.) Doomsday ark high powered blast goes to heavy d6 (all other units with sometimes D3 sometimes D6 have been upgraded) 3.) Dispersion shields go to 3++ (like every other shield in the game) 4.) Powers of the C'Tan will get the three missing powers, and we know what three powers they are. 5.) The return of our "relics", 6.) More Warlord traits,
Things that will happen but we are not sure in the specifics 1.) Tomb world deploy fix, might get stratagems to make it more useful, might get overhauled. 2.) Rebalancing our expensive units, either thru buffs or point reductions. 3.) Wargear changes for our HQs, right now we are very inconsistent on how wargear is applied. 4.) Rework of special characters, none of our special characters are particularly special, except in the riding the short bus regard. 5.) Modification of crypteks to be more configurable utility characters, so more like psychers.
Things that I hope for, but I'm not sure will make the cut 1.) Doomsday Ark high powered blast gets the macro keyword (it basically has a lame version of it now). 2.) Changes of commander benefits, MWBD is ok, but if it were a choice between +1 to hit or wound it would be much better. The lord's will is weak and uninteresting, so it could use a change. 3.) Some mechanism for the entire army to be better at anti-vehicle, compared to other armies we are way behind on anti-vehicle capability, which has traditionally been a strong area for us. 4.) Tesla destructors are bad, and we have them on half of our vehicles so they need some love. Str 7 leaves it too low to double out marines, and not high enough to be effective against heavy vehicles due to the lack of AP. Bump their str to 8, or give them a -1 AP. 5.) Tomb spyders get the character keyword, if they ever get useful low wounds just make them to easy of a target. 6.) Quantum shielding change, I'm not even sure how it made it out the door in its current form. It's quirky and fun, but the random nature of it can lead to some pretty negative play experiences. I expect it to work like our warlord trait, -1 damage to a minimum damage of 1.
Can someone explain to me how the Spyder could get the Character Keyword? It's not like it's a unique unit or anything, all they do is make sure tomb worlds are maintenanced, produce Scarabs and 'help" Canoptek units stay alive.
There is literally no reason for it to get a character keyword besides the fact that they are squishy in their Index form and need a way to protect themselves.
The only rule I could think of that would benefit the Sypder and act like a Character keyword is to give it it's own special rule e.g. <Dynasty> Canoptek Spyders cannot be targeted in the shooting phase if another <Dynasty> Canoptek unit is closer to the enemy model. Or, <Dynasty> Canoptek Spyders cannot be targeted in the shooting phase if other friendly <Dynasty> units are closer to the enemy model.
Odrankt wrote: Can someone explain to me how the Spyder could get the Character Keyword? It's not like it's a unique unit or anything, all they do is make sure tomb worlds are maintenanced, produce Scarabs and 'help" Canoptek units stay alive.
There is literally no reason for it to get a character keyword besides the fact that they are squishy in their Index form and need a way to protect themselves.
The only rule I could think of that would benefit the Sypder and act like a Character keyword is to give it it's own special rule e.g. <Dynasty> Canoptek Spyders cannot be targeted in the shooting phase if another <Dynasty> Canoptek unit is closer to the enemy model. Or, <Dynasty> Canoptek Spyders cannot be targeted in the shooting phase if other friendly <Dynasty> units are closer to the enemy model.
Let's make sure we are setting the bar correctly, Daemonic Heralds are characters, Space marine ancients are characters, mindless automatons like a Tyranid prime are characters, engineseers are characters. Character refers to a role on the battlefield not a models notability, to wit a character is a single model, that supports other units through use of abilities and wargear. Spyders are already acting in that exact roles, They bring unique wargear to the table (gloom prism, fabricator claw arrays), they support other units (scarab hive and vehicle repair), and function as a single model.
Looks like the LVO had a 79th(?) placed Necron Army with... Annihilation Barges (Gauss equipped, too!).
I promise my question wasn’t based on that list...
Overall straightforward seeming setup:
Tesla Immortals (max) with OL (though the OL had the Veil: I’m guessing to MWBD the Lychguard).
Two min squad Gauss Immortals (I’m guessing treated as tax).
Scythe Lychguard (presumably for veil shenanigans)
Two ABarges with Gauss
Mamma Pylon
Does anyone know how good 79th is for the LVO? Is this list significant (pre-Codex)?
4-2 is good, loosing her first match set her in the bottom half of the event, which was probably for the best, because the competition there was a little less fierce. Then she worked her way up to the top 20 ish percent, got clipped, and finished on a high note with her fourth win which got her in the top 3rd. All in all I would rate her performance as heroic, because the next necron finished 50 places behind her.
It'll be exciting to see how she does post-codex, she's been the only one reliably putting up results as Necrons in ITC events. I hope when the codex comes out the FLG guys interview her for her thoughts like they did with InControl and the AdMech codex.
sieGermans wrote: Looks like the LVO had a 79th(?) placed Necron Army with... Annihilation Barges (Gauss equipped, too!).
I promise my question wasn’t based on that list...
Overall straightforward seeming setup:
Tesla Immortals (max) with OL (though the OL had the Veil: I’m guessing to MWBD the Lychguard).
Two min squad Gauss Immortals (I’m guessing treated as tax).
Scythe Lychguard (presumably for veil shenanigans)
Two ABarges with Gauss
Mamma Pylon
Does anyone know how good 79th is for the LVO? Is this list significant (pre-Codex)?
I think there was 480ish players, so top 20%. Which seems pretty good! I've not done any wargame tourneys (been on LCGs more recently) but I saw some comments on the FB group saying her list is garbage which... seems a bit weird considering how well she finished?
Odrankt wrote: Can someone explain to me how the Spyder could get the Character Keyword? It's not like it's a unique unit or anything, all they do is make sure tomb worlds are maintenanced, produce Scarabs and 'help" Canoptek units stay alive.
There is literally no reason for it to get a character keyword besides the fact that they are squishy in their Index form and need a way to protect themselves.
The only rule I could think of that would benefit the Sypder and act like a Character keyword is to give it it's own special rule e.g. <Dynasty> Canoptek Spyders cannot be targeted in the shooting phase if another <Dynasty> Canoptek unit is closer to the enemy model. Or, <Dynasty> Canoptek Spyders cannot be targeted in the shooting phase if other friendly <Dynasty> units are closer to the enemy model.
Let's make sure we are setting the bar correctly, Daemonic Heralds are characters, Space marine ancients are characters, mindless automatons like a Tyranid prime are characters, engineseers are characters. Character refers to a role on the battlefield not a models notability, to wit a character is a single model, that supports other units through use of abilities and wargear. Spyders are already acting in that exact roles, They bring unique wargear to the table (gloom prism, fabricator claw arrays), they support other units (scarab hive and vehicle repair), and function as a single model.
Fair enough point my friend.
However, for fluff, I think a version like the one I stated would be a better rule due to it being Necron specific and not have people rage about us being "op" with Sypder having the character keyword cause you know, people like to say we are OP even if they bring broken lists.
sieGermans wrote: Looks like the LVO had a 79th(?) placed Necron Army with... Annihilation Barges (Gauss equipped, too!).
I promise my question wasn’t based on that list...
Overall straightforward seeming setup:
Tesla Immortals (max) with OL (though the OL had the Veil: I’m guessing to MWBD the Lychguard).
Two min squad Gauss Immortals (I’m guessing treated as tax).
Scythe Lychguard (presumably for veil shenanigans)
Two ABarges with Gauss
Mamma Pylon
Does anyone know how good 79th is for the LVO? Is this list significant (pre-Codex)?
I think there was 480ish players, so top 20%. Which seems pretty good! I've not done any wargame tourneys (been on LCGs more recently) but I saw some comments on the FB group saying her list is garbage which... seems a bit weird considering how well she finished?
Properly Meta’ed lists are rarely a full set of the best units in a vacuum (which can throw external observers quite a bit)—though they will be the best units for the expected match-ups. Possibly mix that with general online toxicity...
It’d be great if she”d chime in on this thread with a few thoughts!
I too would love to hear her impressions, but outing yourself as a girl is always a bit daunting on forums like these, I mean we literally had a thread not too long ago on how feminist agenda is ruining the game (which was a trainwreck that got thread locked). So I would understand if she preferred to post her impressions somewhere else like as a guest article on 3++ or blood of kittens.
Grimgold wrote: I too would love to hear her impressions, but outing yourself as a girl is always a bit daunting on forums like these, I mean we literally had a thread not too long ago on how feminist agenda is ruining the game (which was a trainwreck that got thread locked). So I would understand if she preferred to post her impressions somewhere else like as a guest article on 3++ or blood of kittens.
Yeah, sadly true :( Likewise hope we see some thoughts from her as watching good players is usually the best way to learn. I heard she was on the GW twitch at one point, but I believe you need to get a paid subscription to watch those? Also sounds like she'll be in a good place after the codex drops, I heard a rumour Wraiths are going up to Ap -2 and 2 damage
Grimgold wrote: I too would love to hear her impressions, but outing yourself as a girl is always a bit daunting on forums like these, I mean we literally had a thread not too long ago on how feminist agenda is ruining the game (which was a trainwreck that got thread locked). So I would understand if she preferred to post her impressions somewhere else like as a guest article on 3++ or blood of kittens.
Yeah, sadly true :( Likewise hope we see some thoughts from her as watching good players is usually the best way to learn. I heard she was on the GW twitch at one point, but I believe you need to get a paid subscription to watch those? Also sounds like she'll be in a good place after the codex drops, I heard a rumour Wraiths are going up to Ap -2 and 2 damage
Just played my first two games with my new necron army (I have a bad habit of buying new armies before a codex comes out, works well normally for me since stuff is typically cheaper before it gets "good" ) and I was impressed. Won both games, few things I noticed, both vs marines.
Destroyers are cool. They are pretty effective vs elites like terminators.
Pure numbers are the great equalizer. One on one tacticals can't win a shooting match vs crons.
Cryptechs are definitely a nessisary unit if your using lots of warriors (which I do, I like warriors in numbers)
We really don't have any good options for melee it seems. I lost my left flank (15 warriors, cryptech, and 5 deathmasks) to a squad of Marines who managed to get in and charged.
On the topic of deathmasks... these things are awesome. One game I used them to kill a dreadnaught that had 1 wound left thanks to the mortal on a 6 to wound. Next game I used Ethereal Interception to drop in when my opponent tied to drop in a small 5 man assault marine squad. 8 hits, and 3 6's on the to wound rolls + normal wounds = 4 dead assault marines, and the 1 remaining marine didnt live long enough to do anything. I know I got great rolls here but they are now my favorite unit.
Azuza001 wrote: We really don't have any good options for melee it seems.
Scarabs and Wraiths, but they're more for tying up enemy melee units (to protect your Warriors/Immortals/Destroyers) rather than inflicting damage.
Praetorians would be great if they were cheaper (but that's par for the entire army).
Was the Necron player in the LVO Jessica? I think she plays Frankie in a FLG batrep. If I remember correctly it was Necrons vs Deathguard when the DG codex just dropped.
As for the feminist debate I won't go there because it's very toxic from both perspectives. However the nice things about forums is that you don't have to say if you are a man or woman. Because it doesn't matter.
One thing I hope we could see that would quietly give Necrons a big edge is an improvement to their weapon range.
At the moment almost every infantry weapon, even the sniper rifles, ends at 24". For your Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers, Deathmarks, heck even your Monolith and Annhiation Barge, this is the case.
Bump that up to 30" or 32" and all of a sudden your opponent has to take Necron gunlines very seriously.
dapperbandit wrote: One thing I hope we could see that would quietly give Necrons a big edge is an improvement to their weapon range.
At the moment almost every infantry weapon, even the sniper rifles, ends at 24". For your Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers, Deathmarks, heck even your Monolith and Annhiation Barge, this is the case.
Bump that up to 30" or 32" and all of a sudden your opponent has to take Necron gunlines very seriously.
Being a short/mid-range shooting army is the Necron style, though. It'd be better to make that work than to try to change the army into Tau.
dapperbandit wrote: One thing I hope we could see that would quietly give Necrons a big edge is an improvement to their weapon range.
At the moment almost every infantry weapon, even the sniper rifles, ends at 24". For your Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers, Deathmarks, heck even your Monolith and Annhiation Barge, this is the case.
Bump that up to 30" or 32" and all of a sudden your opponent has to take Necron gunlines very seriously.
Well, yeah, that's the point. Necrons have always been a mid to short ranged army. If you want long range play Eldar or Tau.
dapperbandit wrote: Fair enough, I think the idea of the Bolt Rifle having the same stats as the standard infantry weapon of the advanced Necrons bothers me.
They don't have the same stats, Gauss Flayers have -1AP. I would really hope that Gauss gets +1 damage for wound rolls of 6+. Right now the straight bonus to their AP is boring and not that beneficial because we now have very few answers to vehicles and monsters. Also, the Tesla destructor is really bad, it needs the D3 damage stat to be anywhere near what it should be.
dapperbandit wrote: Fair enough, I think the idea of the Bolt Rifle having the same stats as the standard infantry weapon of the advanced Necrons bothers me.
They don't have the same stats, Gauss Flayers have -1AP. I would really hope that Gauss gets +1 damage for wound rolls of 6+. Right now the straight bonus to their AP is boring and not that beneficial because we now have very few answers to vehicles and monsters. Also, the Tesla destructor is really bad, it needs the D3 damage stat to be anywhere near what it should be.
Bolt rifles have -1 ap too.
Bolt rifles are 30" range, S4 AP-1
However, they are more like specialist weapons than basic weapons, imo as they are only fieled by Primaris.
(it may be the 3 hours of sleep talking but~) I cant remember how it worked but all this speculation talk had me feeling nostalgic over the lightning fields our armies used to have for some reason (as in I dont know why im thinking about it, not they didn't make sense thematically)... What did those do? *Tries to keep self from falling asleep while thinking about them*
I play DA primaris, and intercessors are a surprisingly solid infantry choice. However I don't think the extra 6" of range is make or break for them, it's the three extra inches of rapid fire that really help. Being able to rapid fire from outside charge range is a really neat feature.
Anyway, I'd say the hallmark of necron tactics has been aggression. Necrons being tougher than other armies meant we were always willing to close and go toe to toe blow for blow, so short range didn't matter that much to us. That changed in 8th, since we couldn't rely on RP, we suddenly had a much harder time closing, and staying in short range.That's the biggest sin of this edition for necrons I think, we don't feel like necrons anymore, we feel like weird space marines.
Grimgold wrote: That's the biggest sin of this edition for necrons I think, we don't feel like necrons anymore, we feel like weird space marines.
I disagree, a full blob of Warriors, backed up by Szeras and a Ghost Ark is something Marines will never be able to do.
The biggest problem is (and has been mentioned multiple times by now xD) is that Reanimation Protocols is too easily countered by leadership and close combat. I'm fine with my enemy pouring everything he's got into a full stack of Warriors in order to completely wipe them. There has to be counterplay after all.
What I'm not happy about is the whole 'Oh I lost 10 Warriors, better spent 2 CP or else a gak-ton will run away.'
Or 'Oh I'm locked in combat while taking heavy casualties. Too bad I cannot Reanimate more than 1" away from enemy models, meaning I can barely Reanimate 1/3rd of the casualties.'
Grimgold wrote: That's the biggest sin of this edition for necrons I think, we don't feel like necrons anymore, we feel like weird space marines.
I disagree, a full blob of Warriors, backed up by Szeras and a Ghost Ark is something Marines will never be able to do.
The biggest problem is (and has been mentioned multiple times by now xD) is that Reanimation Protocols is too easily countered by leadership and close combat. I'm fine with my enemy pouring everything he's got into a full stack of Warriors in order to completely wipe them. There has to be counterplay after all.
What I'm not happy about is the whole 'Oh I lost 10 Warriors, better spent 2 CP or else a gak-ton will run away.'
Or 'Oh I'm locked in combat while taking heavy casualties. Too bad I cannot Reanimate more than 1" away from enemy models, meaning I can barely Reanimate 1/3rd of the casualties.'
Is that a winning strategy? Rhetorical question, warrior blobs are toothless, and supporting them to make them tougher is just throwing good points after bad. Our best lists don't feel anything like our lists from other editions.
Is that a winning strategy? Rhetorical question, warrior blobs are toothless, and supporting them to make them tougher is just throwing good points after bad. Our best lists don't feel anything like our lists from other editions.
Well I dont know about previous editions, ive only started playing Necrons about a month ago. And yes, I might be biased as Szeras is my favourite HQ.
But I disagree with Warriors being toothless. In rapidfire range, they can put the hurt on pretty much anything that isnt T8+.
40 S4 ap-1 shots, hitting on 2+ cause of Szeras isnt something your opponent can ignore.
But they do need to be the distraction for something else. An approaching Nightbringer Shard, an Overlord dropping in with Tesla Immortals/warsytche Lychguard etc.
Regardless, next match im going to try it. Szeras with 2x 20 Warriors, thrown forward thanks to the Deceiver. Meanwhile, the Nightbringer rushes forward and an Overlord Veils in a squad of 10 Tesla Immortals.
I read a great comment on here a little while ago which proposed that the value of RP isn't bringing troops back, it's forcing your enemy to fight against you in a certain way (taking a whole unit down at a time). You punish mistakes in target priority and with good positioning exploit the fact your enemy doesn't have the freedom to choose their targets.
Unfortunately where RP falls down is that our 'tough' units don't kill well enough and our 'killy' units are relatively easy to kill... Warriors kinda fall into the category of tough units, a blob of 20 is hard to shift, especially supported by a Ghost Ark or Orbs, but you'll struggle to kill a lot with them and they're really not mobile enough to do well at capping points.
To an extent all this speculating is pretty useless as hopefully it's a matter of weeks until we see a codex which throws a lot of changes at us, but if we were sticking with what we have... I think I would be experimenting in being more aggressive with my unit selection and positioning to put my opponents in tougher positions? I dunno, maybe multiple smaller threatening units of Immortals?
unitled wrote: I read a great comment on here a little while ago which proposed that the value of RP isn't bringing troops back, it's forcing your enemy to fight against you in a certain way (taking a whole unit down at a time). You punish mistakes in target priority and with good positioning exploit the fact your enemy doesn't have the freedom to choose their targets.
Unfortunately where RP falls down is that our 'tough' units don't kill well enough and our 'killy' units are relatively easy to kill... Warriors kinda fall into the category of tough units, a blob of 20 is hard to shift, especially supported by a Ghost Ark or Orbs, but you'll struggle to kill a lot with them and they're really not mobile enough to do well at capping points.
To an extent all this speculating is pretty useless as hopefully it's a matter of weeks until we see a codex which throws a lot of changes at us, but if we were sticking with what we have... I think I would be experimenting in being more aggressive with my unit selection and positioning to put my opponents in tougher positions? I dunno, maybe multiple smaller threatening units of Immortals?
This is a pretty good summary of the issues Necrons face right now. RP is a pretty good mechanic in and of itself, but the units affected by it can't really make the most of it. I love my metal men, but they're going to stay on the shelf until either our killy units get more durable, or our durable units get more killy. Until then, I'm sticking to AoS.
unitled wrote: I read a great comment on here a little while ago which proposed that the value of RP isn't bringing troops back, it's forcing your enemy to fight against you in a certain way (taking a whole unit down at a time). You punish mistakes in target priority and with good positioning exploit the fact your enemy doesn't have the freedom to choose their targets.
Unfortunately where RP falls down is that our 'tough' units don't kill well enough and our 'killy' units are relatively easy to kill... Warriors kinda fall into the category of tough units, a blob of 20 is hard to shift, especially supported by a Ghost Ark or Orbs, but you'll struggle to kill a lot with them and they're really not mobile enough to do well at capping points.
To an extent all this speculating is pretty useless as hopefully it's a matter of weeks until we see a codex which throws a lot of changes at us, but if we were sticking with what we have... I think I would be experimenting in being more aggressive with my unit selection and positioning to put my opponents in tougher positions? I dunno, maybe multiple smaller threatening units of Immortals?
This is a pretty good summary of the issues Necrons face right now. RP is a pretty good mechanic in and of itself, but the units affected by it can't really make the most of it. I love my metal men, but they're going to stay on the shelf until either our killy units get more durable, or our durable units get more killy. Until then, I'm sticking to AoS.
Good observations.
I've found out that the Veil of Darkness has made a big difference in my games and that's only one relic. Imagine when the codex comes out.
The ability to move a slow unit into a better position is amazing. This combined with the Deceiver and you can put pressure on your opponent from multiple units on turn 1.
Although this becomes a lot more difficult if you face someone who masters board control. Someone who shuts down a lot of the table first with scouting units and then deep striking units.
This is really the key in 40k 8th. I just wish Necrons had a unit that can scout.
Is that a winning strategy? Rhetorical question, warrior blobs are toothless, and supporting them to make them tougher is just throwing good points after bad. Our best lists don't feel anything like our lists from other editions.
Well I dont know about previous editions, ive only started playing Necrons about a month ago. And yes, I might be biased as Szeras is my favourite HQ.
But I disagree with Warriors being toothless. In rapidfire range, they can put the hurt on pretty much anything that isnt T8+.
40 S4 ap-1 shots, hitting on 2+ cause of Szeras isnt something your opponent can ignore.
But they do need to be the distraction for something else. An approaching Nightbringer Shard, an Overlord dropping in with Tesla Immortals/warsytche Lychguard etc.
Regardless, next match im going to try it. Szeras with 2x 20 Warriors, thrown forward thanks to the Deceiver. Meanwhile, the Nightbringer rushes forward and an Overlord Veils in a squad of 10 Tesla Immortals.
That might be a nasty surprise for you opponent.
Just be aware of scouting units that can shut down your gameplan completely. You will need to alternate deployment with Grand illusioned units and scouting units.
Also I would use Gauss Immortals instead of tesla since they come into rapid fire range.
Good luck and I'd very much like to hear how the game went.
FWIW there was a hint dropped that our mobility will be increasing, and units that can disappear and reappear at will is absolutely in the fluff for our army. Scarabs or Wraiths getting some scouting ability would be welcome too I guess?
I've definitely found the ability to redeploy at will with Veil of Darkness is not only useful in itself but forces your opponent to adapt to the possibility. If we start to see units like the monoliths or strategems being able to beam units around the table I think that would be very welcome, especially in objective based games.
If we're forcing enemies to target EITHER tough objective campers OR actually-threatening offensive units that can be repositioned to strike at our opponents... I think that is when something like RP starts to shine. What does your opponent deal with to ensure they wipe it out and it doesn't return?!
I've seen two youtubers now saying once the Codex drops everybody's going to want Lords in their army.
I wonder what they know that we don't... I can only assume they'll be able to either boost the survivability of your infantry or confer more aggressive buffs. At the moment they're the cheapest unit that can take a Res Orb so it could be that if they've changed how the Orb works.
dapperbandit wrote: I've seen two youtubers now saying once the Codex drops everybody's going to want Lords in their army.
I wonder what they know that we don't... I can only assume they'll be able to either boost the survivability of your infantry or confer more aggressive buffs. At the moment they're the cheapest unit that can take a Res Orb so it could be that if they've changed how the Orb works.
They could work for GW and know someone that prints Codexs thus have a reliable but secret source to everything in regards to rules.
I think the Orb is going to be dropping at least 50% in points to look more "attractive" and "apparently" Lord's will exchange their "re-rolling morale " to "auto-pass" morale. I can't say where I got this info from as I don't want them to get in trouble but that's the rumours that spread during an event I was at this past weekend with the person showing me where the information comes from.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, just so people know, the reason we didn't get much updates in Chapter Approved is because Codex Necrons is going to be a full 180 of Index Necrons so the only way to "implement" this affect was to wait for a Codex release as Chapter Approved would have ruined the surprises and any that is changing will conflict with our Index enteries.
Well its close enough that print copies and such will be lurking out there in the wild and those in the know have more safety in revealing little bits of info and such without it quickly linking back to them.
That said I suspect we are still a bit away from stock heading out to anything but distributors (and I don't know if they'd buy up stock this early unless the launch is next week); so chances are we'll still have a bit of a wait before we get a glut of rumours enough to cross check them with each other.
dapperbandit wrote: I've seen two youtubers now saying once the Codex drops everybody's going to want Lords in their army.
I wonder what they know that we don't... I can only assume they'll be able to either boost the survivability of your infantry or confer more aggressive buffs. At the moment they're the cheapest unit that can take a Res Orb so it could be that if they've changed how the Orb works.
They could work for GW and know someone that prints Codexs thus have a reliable but secret source to everything in regards to rules.
I think the Orb is going to be dropping at least 50% in points to look more "attractive" and "apparently" Lord's will exchange their "re-rolling morale " to "auto-pass" morale. I can't say where I got this info from as I don't want them to get in trouble but that's the rumours that spread during an event I was at this past weekend with the person showing me where the information comes from.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, just so people know, the reason we didn't get much updates in Chapter Approved is because Codex Necrons is going to be a full 180 of Index Necrons so the only way to "implement" this affect was to wait for a Codex release as Chapter Approved would have ruined the surprises and any that is changing will conflict with our Index enteries.
Hmm, Lords providing an auto-pass morale could be quite a big deal, especially when it comes to managing an economy of Command Points. If you don't have to burn 2CP to keep that Warrior blob on the table so they can reanimate then that's two more CP you can be using on re-rolls or new strategems
Hmm, Lords providing an auto-pass morale could be quite a big deal, especially when it comes to managing an economy of Command Points. If you don't have to burn 2CP to keep that Warrior blob on the table so they can reanimate then that's two more CP you can be using on re-rolls or new strategems
I like the idea of having a Lord with 2 units of warriors "daisy" changing to grab as many objectives as possible. Plus, if he stops Morale from being an issue then I can only imagine how tough and resilient a blob of warriors will be when auto passing morale and using a res orb to get them up to greater numbers.
Alas, they are just rumours though and while the sources I was shown were pretty reliable and consistent with other Codex rumours from other armies. I will take everything I was told with a pinch of salt so I don't get disappointed if the Codex is different to what I was told it will be.
I got told a gakk load of rumours at the weekend but I'm keeping those to myself just incase someone from GW tries to "shut me up". It is safe to say that Codex Necrons is a complete revamp from the Index and everyone on the forum will be super happy with the Codex if everything I was shown is true.
We won't be "Uber" competitive but we will give a lot of armies a hard time which is in line with out fluff.
Doctoralex wrote: -Tomb blades are getting 14! Upgrade options, one of them being -1 to hit. The -1 to hit sound reasonable, 14 upgrade options does not.
I saw these comments too, but read this as Tomb Blades will be 14 points rather than they're getting 14 upgrade options? Means they're a decent bit cheaper if so! 14 different upgrades seems bonkers.
Hmm, Lords providing an auto-pass morale could be quite a big deal, especially when it comes to managing an economy of Command Points. If you don't have to burn 2CP to keep that Warrior blob on the table so they can reanimate then that's two more CP you can be using on re-rolls or new strategems
I like the idea of having a Lord with 2 units of warriors "daisy" changing to grab as many objectives as possible. Plus, if he stops Morale from being an issue then I can only imagine how tough and resilient a blob of warriors will be when auto passing morale and using a res orb to get them up to greater numbers.
Alas, they are just rumours though and while the sources I was shown were pretty reliable and consistent with other Codex rumours from other armies. I will take everything I was told with a pinch of salt so I don't get disappointed if the Codex is different to what I was told it will be.
I got told a gakk load of rumours at the weekend but I'm keeping those to myself just incase someone from GW tries to "shut me up". It is safe to say that Codex Necrons is a complete revamp from the Index and everyone on the forum will be super happy with the Codex if everything I was shown is true.
We won't be "Uber" competitive but we will give a lot of armies a hard time which is in line with out fluff.
Just 1 question: does RP remain the same? I heard it might get changed to a boring FnP save....
Hopefully there's a general point cut across the board. Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers need one. Tomb Blades sat in a weird place for me because they didn't have the Infantry keyword and were a bit too flimsy
Hmm, Lords providing an auto-pass morale could be quite a big deal, especially when it comes to managing an economy of Command Points. If you don't have to burn 2CP to keep that Warrior blob on the table so they can reanimate then that's two more CP you can be using on re-rolls or new strategems
I like the idea of having a Lord with 2 units of warriors "daisy" changing to grab as many objectives as possible. Plus, if he stops Morale from being an issue then I can only imagine how tough and resilient a blob of warriors will be when auto passing morale and using a res orb to get them up to greater numbers.
Alas, they are just rumours though and while the sources I was shown were pretty reliable and consistent with other Codex rumours from other armies. I will take everything I was told with a pinch of salt so I don't get disappointed if the Codex is different to what I was told it will be.
I got told a gakk load of rumours at the weekend but I'm keeping those to myself just incase someone from GW tries to "shut me up". It is safe to say that Codex Necrons is a complete revamp from the Index and everyone on the forum will be super happy with the Codex if everything I was shown is true.
We won't be "Uber" competitive but we will give a lot of armies a hard time which is in line with out fluff.
Any Armies in particular we will give a hard time? You can atleast say that much.
The more CPs an opponent uses the better and our Spyder might become reliable if taken with more "supporting" units.
Not going to name any armies we be good against *cough*War of Heaven*cough* but most armies will have a hard time. Especially if using old Xeno tech or weapons based on Xeno texch.
Yeah, nemesis factions were an interesting idea for fluff but in game who wants to play knowing that their opponent will get a major buff because you happen to be playing X?
Doctoralex wrote: Some more 'rumours' from reddit. Some of it sounds like it could be true, but some info... eh.....:
-DDA is going to get D6 shots.
-One Dynasty will focus on vehicles, letting them ignore the Heavy penalty when moving.
-Tomb blades are getting 14! Upgrade options, one of them being -1 to hit. The -1 to hit sound reasonable, 14 upgrade options does not.
-a strategem that lets you blow up a Scarab for D3 mortal wounds in the fight phase.
Please let the scarabs one be true, I don't even care if the stratagem sucks, just the idea of using scarabs as grenades is an amazing visual. It could be our equivalent of the hellfire round stratagem and make scarabs a target in CC.
As for the DDA, yeah all other sometimes d3 sometimes d6 weapons are now a d6, so that's a no brainer.
The vehicle's one is weird, because tesla destructors are assault, and the monolith already has it. That means death rays on doom scythes and gauss cannons on barges are the only things that benefit, and I'd be pretty annoyed if that were my faction bonus. If it's true (and at this point I'm saying probably not) they would have to be changing tesla destructor to be heavy, which seems like a terrible idea unless there is some awesome other changes to them.
Tomb blades already have 3 weapons choices, 2 wargear choices, and an armor upgrade, which is six options, so not sure where the other 8 would come from, and how they would be represented on the model. I can totally see the shadowloom being a -1 to hit though. It would be nice if the neubuloscope allowed them to reroll ones to hit or some such.
Wow. I guess it has been a long time since the original Necron release. That scarab thing was how they worked in the first set of rules. Between this rumour and the Squat model coming out for Necromunda, I'm having a very nostalgia tinged evening.
The vehicle's one is weird, because tesla destructors are assault, and the monolith already has it. That means death rays on doom scythes and gauss cannons on barges are the only things that benefit, and I'd be pretty annoyed if that were my faction bonus. If it's true (and at this point I'm saying probably not) they would have to be changing tesla destructor to be heavy, which seems like a terrible idea unless there is some awesome other changes to them.
Ya forgot Stalkers. That could be significant for them. But yeah, Don't affect too much.
Also where is everyone getting their leaks from? I've scoured my usual sites and boards and not so much as a single smug person saying he has seen it and it's awesome. Even /TG/ which tends to aggregate leaks pretty quickly has nothing to say on it. I mean we are about a month and a half out, so I can't imagine people getting review copies this early.
So far no actual "leaks", just unverifiable rumors.
Once we get some legitimate leaks, so we have a better idea what to expect, we can probably start the new tactics thread so discussion on on how we'll need to change our playstyle can begin.
Rumors, leaks? We might as well speculate anyway because it's fun.
Exploding Scarabs? Ok I guess.
D6 shot DDA? So I will still only get one shot after spending a cp.
No heavy penalty for vehicles dynasty? Every faction seems to get one or two bad chapter tactics. So why not. Although it should be good on FW vehicles such as the Stalker and TA.
14 options for Tomb blades? Perhaps it's 14 differrnt combinations or they remove all options for the other units and put them on the Tomb blades.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, nemesis factions were an interesting idea for fluff but in game who wants to play knowing that their opponent will get a major buff because you happen to be playing X?
Am I right in thinking in previous editions, Imotekh got a +1 to his "who goes first" roll against everyone except Orks because even with a "hyperlogical" mind for strategy he can't predict Orks?
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Rumors, leaks? We might as well speculate anyway because it's fun.
No heavy penalty for vehicles dynasty? Every faction seems to get one or two bad chapter tactics. So why not. Although it should be good on FW vehicles such as the Stalker and TA.
14 options for Tomb blades? Perhaps it's 14 differrnt combinations or they remove all options for the other units and put them on the Tomb blades.
That Dynasty will probably get more than that. Maybe a small boost to Quantum Shielding?
I must have misinterpreted the one about the Blades. It's probably down to 14 points per Tomb Blade, which would decrease their price by 10 points. Still pretty sweet.
14 options for Tomb blades? Perhaps it's 14 different combinations or they remove all options for the other units and put them on the Tomb blades.
It would represent a major policy change - which since 8th edition seems to have been only to allow wargear options if there is already a representation for it on the model - note how daemons lost many, many options that were not represented by a bit of plastic, as well as Necrons. Relics seem to be a partial exception to this (weapon relics generally require the weapon type to be phys-repped but other relics do not)
I expect its a misinterpretation.
Regarding Resurrection Protocols, much as I like the new system of continual resurrection, it is hard to balance with game size and it would not surprise me if it went back to a previous iteration of "roll X not to die". Hopefully accompanied by a points drop or some other benefit...
Rumour I've seen is that RP is staying pretty much the same. Which is fine, I like it a lot, I think fixing the other problems with Necrons will mean RP falls into line.
Note we get a Necron list in the WD batrep this month! Necrons vs Custodes! So, yeah... that's fair! And the list is... hmm. 3,400 points and somehow the Necron player has 6CP to the Custodes 7?
unitled wrote: Rumour I've seen is that RP is staying pretty much the same. Which is fine, I like it a lot, I think fixing the other problems with Necrons will mean RP falls into line.
Note we get a Necron list in the WD batrep this month! Necrons vs Custodes! So, yeah... that's fair! And the list is... hmm. 3,400 points and somehow the Necron player has 6CP to the Custodes 7?
I agree. RP is a fine mechanic, its just that it doesn't receive support from the rest of the army. RP is a mechanic that really needs other elements for it to bring the most out of it.
unitled wrote: Rumour I've seen is that RP is staying pretty much the same. Which is fine, I like it a lot, I think fixing the other problems with Necrons will mean RP falls into line.
Note we get a Necron list in the WD batrep this month! Necrons vs Custodes! So, yeah... that's fair! And the list is... hmm. 3,400 points and somehow the Necron player has 6CP to the Custodes 7?
I agree. RP is a fine mechanic, its just that it doesn't receive support from the rest of the army. RP is a mechanic that really needs other elements for it to bring the most out of it.
I agree with this. If there are wargear, WL traits, and strategems to support RP from being bypassed entirely then RP should be acceptable the way it currently is.
If they do end up changing the lychguard shields, would you prefer them to be just a straight 3+ invul, or would you rather have them stay 4+ but give them back that rebounding ability they used to have on units within a certain distance (think 18"?).
I wouldn't mind being able to purchase both variants for different jobs I might have for them ; But if im being honest I used to have a good chuckle with the reflection of incoming fire especially from overwatches so i'd probably vote that way myself.
Lothmar wrote: If they do end up changing the lychguard shields, would you prefer them to be just a straight 3+ invul, or would you rather have them stay 4+ but give them back that rebounding ability they used to have on units within a certain distance (think 18"?).
I wouldn't mind being able to purchase both variants for different jobs I might have for them ; But if im being honest I used to have a good chuckle with the reflection of incoming fire especially from overwatches so i'd probably vote that way myself.
While 3++ is better it's more fun reflecting back wounds so I vote for the later too. Castellan Robots do this. They have 4++ save and reflect back MW on sixes. I don't think there's a range limit. Makes you think before shooting them.
I must have misinterpreted the one about the Blades. It's probably down to 14 points per Tomb Blade, which would decrease their price by 10 points. Still pretty sweet.
That would indeed help out a lot. I like Tomb blades in 8th. It's just that a unit of 9 costs 450 points, but lowering the cost of that unit to 360 would be fantastic... if true.
4++ is just fine especially with Lychguard having 2 wounds now. The reflective ability would be great to add MW's to an army that has very few options for MW's.
2 wounds is a weird place to be, on one hand it makes you twice as tough against small arms, but small arms was never lychguards problem. The reason I worry we are overpaying for two wounds is that there there are so many weapons that deal 2 damage, and those weapons are the ones you would want to use against lychguard in the first place, such as OC plasma, auto-cannons, and anti-vehicle weapons.
As much as I like the idea of bouncing wounds back like it's 5th ed, we need that 3++ way more.
Maybe make the shields a 3++, and add the reflecting bit as a "gotcha!" stratagem you can activate when the enemy declares their shooting on a unit of lychguard.
3++ is for loser SM players who cry at the drop of hat if they don't have the best of everything. Seriously though, 3++ isn't necessary. Anti-tank fire against a unit designed to be an Overlord's entourage is laughable meanwhile our vehicles are enjoying the freedom to wreak havoc.
I've had good results with the DArk and hope they fix TW deployment and drop the points for my Monolith so I can get that mobility back into my army. But yeah, our vehicles are so so for the most part.
What does everyone do with the leftover bits from the Immortals/Deathmarks box? Use warrior bodies to add gauss/tesla Immortals by snipping off the power cords? Add some smaller and slimmer Deathmarks? Kitbash Crypteks with Deathmark heads?
Yes. Right now I'm making a cryptek from a praetorian tail, a rod of the covenant, a warrior torso and legs, the ball of warscythe, the hood of a deathmark (had to cut that out), and the ball of a synaptic disintegrator. I would have also greenstuffed a sort of segmented cloak thing, but it never looked right so I just gave up on it.
Use the immortal heads as an alternative to those stupid baby crests on the lychguard. I should have done that to begin with, but generally I like to have at least one "normal" looking unit. Unless its really stupid. Like the hole in the flyer.
What does everyone do with the leftover bits from the Immortals/Deathmarks box? Use warrior bodies to add gauss/tesla Immortals by snipping off the power cords? Add some smaller and slimmer Deathmarks? Kitbash Crypteks with Deathmark heads?
Yeah I bought a box of warriors and used the extra bits to make gauss immortals.
And I know it would be considered wish listing but I can see a stratagem for necrons to spend 1/2 cp to immediately make a RP test for a unit that was just shot at/ attacked in melee. It almost feels like a no brainer to help the wishy washy RP rules.
Doctoralex wrote: Holy gak Quantum Shielding is HILARIOUS if it works right.
last match, three Blightspew Crawler launched 3 multimeltas in meltarange and 3 Krak missiles at a Ghost Ark, did a total of two wounds
Yeah, its a good ability. The problem with it is that a smart opponent would direct those multi damage attacks to things that don't have it. Like our fragile destroyers, who are also one of our few sources of multi damage weapons. A monolith would be a good vehicle to pair with it, but its pricey. We need something like a cheaper version, a predator tank to a landraider.
What does everyone do with the leftover bits from the Immortals/Deathmarks box? Use warrior bodies to add gauss/tesla Immortals by snipping off the power cords? Add some smaller and slimmer Deathmarks? Kitbash Crypteks with Deathmark heads?
It's a great kit in this regard, so much extra bits. And quite cheap. For GW.
I use hands (cut from guns) to convert warriors to flayed ones, a couple of examples in my gallery. (a lot better than just using balls of greenstuff)
Doctoralex wrote: Holy gak Quantum Shielding is HILARIOUS if it works right.
last match, three Blightspew Crawler launched 3 multimeltas in meltarange and 3 Krak missiles at a Ghost Ark, did a total of two wounds
Yeah, its a good ability. The problem with it is that a smart opponent would direct those multi damage attacks to things that don't have it. Like our fragile destroyers, who are also one of our few sources of multi damage weapons.
A monolith would be a good vehicle to pair with it, but its pricey. We need something like a cheaper version, a predator tank to a landraider.
QS is a good ability, but really only coms into it's own if you don't field any other models worth shooting high S muti-wound weapons at. If you have destroyers that's where those weapons go, but if you only have 1W warriors and vehicles with QS then those weapons are inefficient no matter which target they choose. Which brings us to the general crapness of RP and big blobs of warriors, sadly. There's almost great synergy there, but it falls short - hopefully the codex will address this somehow.
Quantum shielding is pretty awesome, but it's kind of like grav from 7th ed, it punishes you for having good stats, and thus is a bad mechanic. Plus it has unintended consequences like making necron vehicles immune to a lot of macro weapons. It's one of the things I'm pretty sure is going to get altered in the codex, probably to something like our warlord trait from CA 2017 (flat -1 damage taken) or an invul save.
Until we know how RP or Gauss is going to work it's hard to speculate how they'll fix us. For instance if gauss inflicts a mortal wound on a six (99.9% sure that's not going to happen) I wouldn't expect points reductions.
There are some safe assumptions though, for instance they can't really reduce the price on warriors or immortals, so to compensate for the lack of special/heavy weapons, they will probably have to add a rule to help them. My guess is some kind of on 6's rule, since that's a very traditional Necron style rule. There are lots of ways to achieve the same result though, so I won't be surprised if they get a similar result via another method.
I'm happy as long as necrons are sometime in march so I can excuse buying a few crypteks (for different wargear options) and the codex as a birthday present.
Grimgold wrote: I'm happy as long as necrons are sometime in march so I can excuse buying a few crypteks (for different wargear options) and the codex as a birthday present.
Haha yeah, I'm still holding onto Christmas money for the alleged Necron codex. I sure hope they get started hyping those Xenos books soon, though, I'm tired of my crons sitting on the shelf.
v0iddrgn wrote: So, Thousand Son's codex is released but no mention from GW of the Xenos codexes next in line. Are they intentionally dragging their feet?!
It was announced at the LVO, that Tau, Dark Eldar and Necrons are all coming up here in the next few months. If you are asking for exact dates, nothing yet.
This is the third time they've announced a cluster of 3 Codices - first with Eldar/Guard/Nids, then with BA/DA/Daemons. All those were announced and up for preorder within a month or so, I would expect to see the first one up before the end of February..
Requizen wrote: This is the third time they've announced a cluster of 3 Codices - first with Eldar/Guard/Nids, then with BA/DA/Daemons. All those were announced and up for preorder within a month or so, I would expect to see the first one up before the end of February..
They'd better, but I have seen a precipitous decline in posts to the Warhammer Community 40k section. Malign portents indeed.
Requizen wrote: This is the third time they've announced a cluster of 3 Codices - first with Eldar/Guard/Nids, then with BA/DA/Daemons. All those were announced and up for preorder within a month or so, I would expect to see the first one up before the end of February..
They'd better, but I have seen a precipitous decline in posts to the Warhammer Community 40k section. Malign portents indeed.
To be fair, it was literally nothing but 40k since 8th came out other than the General's Handbook release. AoS players were basically twiddling their thumbs during the first slew of Codices, so it's not surprising to have it go the other way now.
Based on previous announcements, Tau codex will come out late February, followed by Drukhari and Necrons in March. So expect the Necron codex by mid-March at the earliest.
Arachnofiend wrote: Based on previous announcements, Tau codex will come out late February, followed by Drukhari and Necrons in March. So expect the Necron codex by mid-March at the earliest.
The order is still up in the air, It seems unlikely necrons are first, but we are the worst off so it would be a small mercy. The way I heard it was tau then necrons then dark eldar, but with no preorders or street dates only GW knows. If necrons are last it may be because of the rumored Admech vs Necron box set.
Grimgold wrote: The order is still up in the air, It seems unlikely necrons are first, but we are the worst off so it would be a small mercy. The way I heard it was tau then necrons then dark eldar, but with no preorders or street dates only GW knows. If necrons are last it may be because of the rumored Admech vs Necron box set.
You make a great point about the boxset. With that knowledge, I am thinking it is likely going to be last as well.
Admech vs Necrons boxed set still sounds weird, but GW has launched a Sisters of battle boxed set mixed with old and new models for the same price as buying them individually, so who knows how they think.
Right now the only people who know are GW and they aren't telling. There's also the aelves release during this period so that could further delay the Necron release; plus there's some Necromunda stuff as well as the Mortalis stuff
-If for whatever reason you are júst two inches short of having your units in aura range of a Cryptek/Res orb, roll the RP one die at the time.
As soon as one succeeds, you can gain an extra 2" by placing the newly reanimated model towards the character. If this gets you in their aura range, you can then roll the rest of them with their added buffs.
-The Ressurection Orb is ironically not a reroll of a RP. While it does just that, the wording of the ability says: "once per battle, immediately after you have made your Reanimation Protocols rolls, you can make Reanimation Protocols rolls for models from a friendly DYNASTY INFANTRY unit within 3" of this model."
Why does this matter? Because this means that it can stack with the strategem Enhanced Reanimation Protocols. You get to roll RP for a unit twice, rerolling 1's both times.
Anyone else got any small tips they'd like to share?
So, I have a gripe about quantum shielding, and that is that it's effectiveness isn't consistent. Like, its dependent on your opponent rolling high for damage and then you rolling low for damage. That's two more randomized steps after a series of randomized steps. I just had a game where QS only worked once, because he kept rolling too low for damage and I kept rolling too high. I guess its the all or nothing approach that bothers me; it feels really binary. I'd much rather have it work like the Enduring Will warlord trait, where the incoming damage is reduced by a certain amount. Not sure how much to reduce it by though. Maybe a variable dice amount based on the incoming damage, down to a minimum of 1. Like, if the damage is 6 or less, roll a D6, 7 or more, roll 2d6, 13 or more, roll 3d6. That should remove a step and make it less dependent on what your opponent rolls.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So, I have a gripe about quantum shielding, and that is that it's effectiveness isn't consistent. Like, its dependent on your opponent rolling high for damage and then you rolling low for damage. That's two more randomized steps after a series of randomized steps. I just had a game where QS only worked once, because he kept rolling too low for damage and I kept rolling too high. I guess its the all or nothing approach that bothers me; it feels really binary.
I'd much rather have it work like the Enduring Will warlord trait, where the incoming damage is reduced by a certain amount.
Not sure how much to reduce it by though. Maybe a variable dice amount based on the incoming damage, down to a minimum of 1. Like, if the damage is 6 or less, roll a D6, 7 or more, roll 2d6, 13 or more, roll 3d6.
That should remove a step and make it less dependent on what your opponent rolls.
I disagree. D6 damage usually doesn't come in high quantities. Or at least not all aimed at one vehicle, if you've positioned carefully.
If your opponent keeps rolling low, sure Quantum Shielding won't stop much but your vehicle's shouldn't be too damaged either. Especially our Arks have plenty of wounds for just that kind of damage. Living Metal will work out some of the dents and it's payback time.
Compare this to a Leman Russ; aim a couple of Lascannons at that and it's gone, end of discussion. At least our Quantum Shielding has a decent chance of lowering the damage. Plenty of anti-tank also wounds our T6 just as easy as a Russ' T8.
T6 is pretty good in general imo: Hard enough to stop mass infantry fire and kind of overkill for dedicated anti-tank weaponry.
It get's even better against stuff like 2D6 take the highest for damage. Just this week my opponent threw three Plaguespew Crawlers in melta-range at my Ghost Ark, did a total of two damage! I doubt even a Land Raider can barely survive something like that.
The downside is of course that light-anti tank will cut through it more easily, especially since those often do 2 or D3 damage.
On a side note: it gets even more hilarious against 2D6 damage or worse, some Titan weapons do like flat 12 damage, making our vehicles immune to those planet-cracking weapons xD
I like the exploding scarab idea. I remember a time when scarabs were 6points each but werent a swarm and had no base so they were very hard to see for shooting purposes. They had only one function blow up I think it was a str 3+2d6 explosion. Anyone else remember when scarabs were like that?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So, I have a gripe about quantum shielding, and that is that it's effectiveness isn't consistent. Like, its dependent on your opponent rolling high for damage and then you rolling low for damage. That's two more randomized steps after a series of randomized steps. I just had a game where QS only worked once, because he kept rolling too low for damage and I kept rolling too high. I guess its the all or nothing approach that bothers me; it feels really binary.
I'd much rather have it work like the Enduring Will warlord trait, where the incoming damage is reduced by a certain amount.
Not sure how much to reduce it by though. Maybe a variable dice amount based on the incoming damage, down to a minimum of 1. Like, if the damage is 6 or less, roll a D6, 7 or more, roll 2d6, 13 or more, roll 3d6.
That should remove a step and make it less dependent on what your opponent rolls.
Eh, no way. The current build is an excellent meta- dependent choice. Those kinds of decisions, and the tension they engender, is brilliant.
The downside for the current meta is that GW has flooded SM with spammable OC Plasma options, which don’t have a practical downside and are nearly strictly better than the usual AT.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So, I have a gripe about quantum shielding, and that is that it's effectiveness isn't consistent. Like, its dependent on your opponent rolling high for damage and then you rolling low for damage. That's two more randomized steps after a series of randomized steps. I just had a game where QS only worked once, because he kept rolling too low for damage and I kept rolling too high. I guess its the all or nothing approach that bothers me; it feels really binary. I'd much rather have it work like the Enduring Will warlord trait, where the incoming damage is reduced by a certain amount. Not sure how much to reduce it by though. Maybe a variable dice amount based on the incoming damage, down to a minimum of 1. Like, if the damage is 6 or less, roll a D6, 7 or more, roll 2d6, 13 or more, roll 3d6. That should remove a step and make it less dependent on what your opponent rolls.
Eh, no way. The current build is an excellent meta- dependent choice. Those kinds of decisions, and the tension they engender, is brilliant.
The downside for the current meta is that GW has flooded SM with spammable OC Plasma options, which don’t have a practical downside and are nearly strictly better than the usual AT.
That's a fair way of looking at it, I guess. I'm just not a fan of how random it is. That's not to say I won't use it or that it has to be changed, because it does work as intended. It's just not how I would have handled it. Yeah, plasma spam does hurt it. In the aforementioned game my opponent dropped a few squads of BA assault marines, each unit armed with a plasma pistol, and they just dumped overcharged shots into the GA, in range of the warlord's reroll 1s ability. Took off like 6 wounds. Though to be fair, I should have protected my back line better, and that's not to say QS is weak, because it is intended to be bad against low damage weapons like plasma.
Been a while since I checked in. Kind of took a break from things while I waited for Necron codex to be released. I saw that about a month ago it was announced to be "coming soon". Has there been any more talk on a potential release window? I want to continue building my army, but I want to get my hands on the codex and rule updates so I know what units I should focus on.
I'm not salty 
