I would not hold my breath for an errata fix. I think we will be struck with thses rules for about a year before they get around to a Necron codex. The only errata fixing they will do is like making it so you can only take one Celistine. Remember how the Mono had to snapfire its gauss and we all thought it must be a typo?
We will have to find a way to make this work as it is now.
Looking around Dakka there seems to be a lot of love for big guns that drop d6 damage. After mathhammering we've already seen that RP and QS are some of the strongest things about the current list. When you combine those two facts I think there's some real juice in a list that's almost entirely either 1W with RP or QS. A list like that takes a whole lot of the value out of anything that does multiple wounds , and especially d6. Any vehicle with QS has just over a 40% average chance to completely ignore the damage done by a Dd6 weapon.
So that's Warriors, Immortals, Flayed Ones, and all the QS vehicles. with appropriate character support. I think it needs to be play-tested at the very least. The core of that list probably looks like this:
Overlord w Staff
Cryptek
2 x 20 Warriors
1x 10 Immortals
3x Doomsday Ark
Which is just under 1500 pts.
20 more warriors, another Cryptek, and a Ghost Ark brings it up to about 2000. Flayed ones are also a possibility for sure. or Scarabs for bubble wrap, even if it is outside the initial parameters of the list. Stalkers and ABs would work too, especially the latter for some movement.
It's slow like molasses, for sure, but I think there's a lot of lists that will have a lot of trouble putting any kind of dent in it, and attrition can win a lot of games when your firepower doesn't really degrade significantly over the first three turns. I think the trick is to not provide the opponent with anything to shoot that he can get full value out of his HW shooting at.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...
Spoiler:
Orikan
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x H.Destroyers
T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA DDA
2000pts, 4CPs
Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.
Might be a good idea to take a second Stalker. That's your only force multiplier, so it'll be targeted immediately.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh.
Actually, thinking about it,
A HGC Stalker is 181 points.
2 HDs are 150 points.
That's not too much difference.
They've got the same amount of firepower, but one's got QS and the other has multi wound RP.
...
Who's more survivable?
Here is a list using the Deceiver to port Stormlord and Orikan over 12 away then the FO pop with enough bodies to get their bonuses and still try to take on something juicy.
Type Name Cost
HQ 1 Stormlord 228
HQ 1 Orikan 143
Troop 19 Warriors 228
Troop 10 Tesla Imm 170
Troop 10 Tesla Imm 170
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...
Spoiler:
Orikan
20 Warriors 10 Gauss Immortals 10 Tesla Immortals
3x H.Destroyers
T.Stalker Anni barge Anni barge Anni barge DDA DDA
2000pts, 4CPs
Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.
Might be a good idea to take a second Stalker. That's your only force multiplier, so it'll be targeted immediately.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh. Actually, thinking about it, A HGC Stalker is 181 points. 2 HDs are 150 points. That's not too much difference. They've got the same amount of firepower, but one's got QS and the other has multi wound RP. ... Who's more survivable?
Stalker is T6 W10 3+ with QS and living metal HDs are T5 W6 3+ with RP.
The Stalker is tougher and has more wounds and retains both guns until the bitter end (although the BS degrades). I think the Stalker is tougher and most games will survive longer because the RP on the HDs are a little harder to benefit from than on 1W models (when there's only two of them especially). They only get to use it if one HD dies and not the other, and then you get a full wound guy back on a 5+. I think a lot of players will work pretty hard to make sure you don't get that chance.
Think about it this way. That Stalker will get a predictable 1W back every turn, so 6 over the game if it survives. The HDs would have to walk the knife edge of one-dead-one-not and make their 5+ RP roll twice to manage the same wound recovery. I don't have a mathematical model, but I suspect the former is a lot more reliable than the latter, and even moreso the more d6 weapons in the opponents army (not good for the HDs at all and actually maybe good for the Stalker).
HDs in squads of three are probably a more even comparison because they'll likely get more chances to actually roll RP over the course of a game.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...
Spoiler:
Orikan
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x H.Destroyers
T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA DDA
2000pts, 4CPs
Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.
Might be a good idea to take a second Stalker. That's your only force multiplier, so it'll be targeted immediately.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh.
Actually, thinking about it,
A HGC Stalker is 181 points.
2 HDs are 150 points.
That's not too much difference.
They've got the same amount of firepower, but one's got QS and the other has multi wound RP.
...
Who's more survivable?
Depends? The stalker is pretty survivable, but is hard to claim cover on. Same speed until really hurt, and better in melee. The Stalker isn't... bad? Except for the Heavy + moving thing which still sucks.
Pyrothem wrote:Here is a list using the Deceiver to port Stormlord and Orikan over 12 away then the FO pop with enough bodies to get their bonuses and still try to take on something juicy.
Type Name Cost
HQ 1 Stormlord 228
HQ 1 Orikan 143
Troop 19 Warriors 228
Troop 10 Tesla Imm 170
Troop 10 Tesla Imm 170
Yeah, I wouldn't risk a charge on deep striking FOs if it was a crucial matter.
I'd more use them for back field disruption
"Uhoh! A bunch of choppy guys just appeared behind your Dev squad! Better divert your attention there otherwise you'll be in trouble!"
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?
A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...
I hate to be a naysayer, but I'm feeling fairly discouraged.
I really don't believe you can create sufficient durability in a rule that can be hamstrung so easily.
The loss of gauss doesn't help either. It's not that we lost gauss, it's that we lost an edge. The mechanics of 7th made it so that our lack of high strength shooting volume wasn't so glaring. Gauss made our volume viable, while our durability kept our volume up.
I'm hoping that we can find ways to create a sustainable force, but a few points I would make are:
(These are just my opinions)
I don't think the named characters benefit enough to justify their cost. I feel like they're a points trap.
It hurts us very badly that crypteks and overlords have no RP
I feel we may have to resort to increasing our damage output (as much as possible) to aid our survivability. This means Ddarks, monoliths, maybe even doomscythes.
I also think the triarch stalker is going to be huge in negating the -1 to hit that happens when you move the Ddark and doomscythe.
I'm not sure, but I think each stalker can boost the other. Is that right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?
A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...
Yeah I can see it. Even with the threat of hordes you could screen with cheap scarbs and pull out of combat and let those DArks let those d6 to d6 wounds fly. Save 10 points on the T Staker for the heatray and get some of the flamer fun all the cool kids are raving about.
The DDA is more survivable, so while it sits backfield, it doesnt have to be completely isolated and removed from the rest of the army. It can just be behind everything, but close enough so the flayer array can start to hurt stuff that goes into no-mans land.
But the main point is that against non vehicle units, it does way more damage. A maxed squad of terminators will be decimated by it, it does D6 hits against squads >10.
Its a niche advantage, wont be used much, but there may be situations in the future where it will come in handy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?
A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...
Yeah I can see it. Even with the threat of hordes you could screen with cheap scarbs and pull out of combat and let those DArks let those d6 to d6 wounds fly. Save 10 points on the T Staker for the heatray and get some of the flamer fun all the cool kids are raving about.
For Hordes, how bad IS the Tesla Destructor, anyway?
In a list that uses a couple Stalkers, you'd have a much better chance at rerolling into a 6.
If their their main downside is lack of AP, against (assumed poorly armored) hordes that's not really as much of an issue, is it?
I also think the triarch stalker is going to be huge in negating the -1 to hit that happens when you move the Ddark and doomscythe.
I'm not sure, but I think each stalker can boost the other. Is that right?
The stalker's targeting relay buffs all necron units shooting at a thing so yes that includes other stalkers. The buffs don't stack or anything though.
Sadly you do not get to mitigate the -1 to hit modifiers in the game with re-rolls on 1s, as in if you shoot at flyers or smoke launcher vehicles or whatever you don't re-roll on 1s or 2s because the 2 is subtracted down to a 1. In the rule book next to the psychic and shooting phase rules is a sidebar blurb about re-rolling and that says you do all re-rolling BEFORE you apply modifiers, so you would roll then re-roll your 1s then apply the negative 1 to hit that would reduce more results down to 1. Sucks for both targeting relay and destroyer's hardwired hatred.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...
Orikan
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x H.Destroyers
T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA DDA
2000pts, 4CPs
Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.
So my first battle is against IG troop spam. He is bringing 11 heavy slots, I initially thought it was going to be lots of tanks, but I know he is itching to spam his heavy weapons teams. I cant build a list I am happy with TBH, I have so much stuff I want to try out! I'm going with a Gauss bomb alpha strike.
My plan all depends on what I roll for the deceiver's grand illusion, but its not critical I roll for 3 units (2 minimum, that's a 66% chance, and will spend a CP to re-roll if I get a 1). One warrior blob starts in the tomb world, the cryptek is in the GA.
Roll a 2 for Grand Illusion, the monolith and a Warrior blob gets blinked up.
Roll a 3 for Grand Illusion, the GA will come with the warrior blob so the Cryptek can buff the warriors T1.
T1 (I'll have due to his ridiculous amount of units) gate in 20 warriors, so now have bulk of my force within rapid fire range immediately. If the GA isn't with the warriors, it rushes up and tries to get the cryptek there ASAP. If it is in range then I can disembark T2, so its pretty important it gets him to where he needs to be. However I will be able to RP pretty well considering the GA should be in range straight away, even if it has to bum rush up the board. Monolith T1 evaporates any snipers that he has brought, and then I advance up my immortals so they can get within 24" for that sweet 2+ to hit, 5+ to proc tesla.
Stalker and DDA combo hammer away at any big guns he has, I have a feeling he is bringing the tank that shreds infantry with ridiculous amounts of shots per turn.
That way I have 7/11 units in rapid fire range T1. Good rolls means my T1 alpha strike is putting out 112 gauss shots, a particle whip, a SoL, D3 mortal wounds from the front-line. Wait, I thought we were a slow army
Solid front-line that bypasses the weaknesses of the phalanx, strong midline with alot of tesla and a heavy backline in the stalker and DDA.
Its anti-horde for sure, and not a CC threat in sight (besides the Deciever) and wont handle a Nid monster mash at all. But even against non-horde armies, this will shred most of anything.
I really don't believe you can create sufficient durability in a rule that can be hamstrung so easily.
It's really not easy at all to drop 20 Warriors in one turn. The volume of fire on the table has gone down substantially. Also, you can still use 5th edition shenanigans like anchoring your blobs behind LOS, like a Mono.
The loss of gauss doesn't help either. It's not that we lost gauss, it's that we lost an edge. The mechanics of 7th made it so that our lack of high strength shooting volume wasn't so glaring. Gauss made our volume viable, while our durability kept our volume up.
Getting -1 (or-2 ) AP for basic weapons on troops more then makes up for this. Now we are wounding light to medium vehicles on 5s and heavy vehicles on 6s, and dropping their save at the same time.
It hurts us very badly that crypteks and overlords have no RP
The fact that Character can no longer be shot at makes this largely a non issue. For the most part, the only damage they will take is a random wound here and there from snipers (which living metal will neutralize), or maybe some in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
That's a really good point. The HDs do still have their re-roll 1's to hit (and potentially 1s to wound), but the HGC Stalker can pass a similar ability on to others.
I was originally envisioning HDs but I might have to re-tool back to HGC Stalkers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?
A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...
Yeah I can see it. Even with the threat of hordes you could screen with cheap scarbs and pull out of combat and let those DArks let those d6 to d6 wounds fly. Save 10 points on the T Staker for the heatray and get some of the flamer fun all the cool kids are raving about.
For Hordes, how bad IS the Tesla Destructor, anyway?
In a list that uses a couple Stalkers, you'd have a much better chance at rerolling into a 6.
If their their main downside is lack of AP, against (assumed poorly armored) hordes that's not really as much of an issue, is it?
It takes an annihilation barge about 5 rounds to clear out a 30 termagant swarm assuming synapse, which points wise is pretty far from our worst at it, but immortals are better, but that might be the necron motto for 8th. With MWBD and a 10 man squad it would take immortals about a round and a half to skunk a 30 man blob.
Are HD's better off in groups of Destoyers now, anyway? Seems like a much better way to protect them and ensure RP rolls, and with splitfire they are going to be fine shooting different targets.
Also, the new Gauss Cannon is pretty solid. 24+ Heavy 2 S5 AP -3 D3. For 64 points a pop they don't seem bad at all.
I could definitely see a D-Lord with staff and RO running with a could beefed out 5xD 1xHD squads certainly being a thing.
If my calculations are correct a full unit of 5D + HD in range of a D-Lord unloads on a T6-8 3+ save multi wound mode they are dealing about 9.32 wounds on average.
skoffs wrote: As Destroyers get no bonus from Stalkers, I'd say it's probably best to go an either/or route with those two units.
If taking Stalkers, you should probably bring a bunch of fast shooters (duh).
If Destroyers, fast CC would probably be good (Scarabs, I guess?)
Why would they get no bonus? The Stalker Array gives a bonus to all necrons. Destroyers are necrons. Edit : Oh I see what you mean. Yeah, that's a weird overlap.
skoffs wrote: So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?
A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...
Stalkers lose 1 BS from moving and firing. They're also less accurate and degrade over time. They find it much harder to take cover, whereas Heavy Destroyers, as infantry, can go into almost anything and get a 2+. Heavy Destroyers have fly if they get locked in combat; stalkers have to either fight or forfeit shooting. Heavy Destroyers can sit on top of ruins, where Stalkers can't really do anything with ruins at all. You pay more for a unit which, in essence, does less.
I like stalkers, but there's very good reasons to pick one over the other. Stalkers are quite good though.
I'm also not entirely sure why people are rating the Doomsday Ark so highly. If you move at all, the main gun becomes hilariously ineffective against vehicles. The only thing a stationary Doomsday Ark is better at killing than Heavy Destroyers or Stalkers is hordes, which we don't really struggle with. I guess there's an argument there for the durability, but then you've also got to consider that assault armies with deep strike capabilities (most of them) or highly mobile armies will render your main anti-tank silent on the first or second turn. The Ark seems to me to exist in a world where it's great if you have a very open board against a slow assault army, and worse than the other options otherwise. Bear in mind that against the vast majority of tanks, D3 S10 AP-5 shots is the same as 2 S9 AP-4 shots on average, so you're paying 53 points to become more durable and get some extra gauss flayers. I'll try them out to test my theory, but they just seem worse than the other options. I would rather take a Heat Ray/THGC Stalker for fewer points.
skoffs wrote: So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?
A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...
Stalkers lose 1 BS from moving and firing. They're also less accurate and degrade over time. They find it much harder to take cover, whereas Heavy Destroyers, as infantry, can go into almost anything and get a 2+. Heavy Destroyers have fly if they get locked in combat; stalkers have to either fight or forfeit shooting. Heavy Destroyers can sit on top of ruins, where Stalkers can't really do anything with ruins at all. You pay more for a unit which, in essence, does less.
I like stalkers, but there's very good reasons to pick one over the other. Stalkers are quite good though.
I'm also not entirely sure why people are rating the Doomsday Ark so highly. If you move at all, the main gun becomes hilariously ineffective against vehicles. The only thing a stationary Doomsday Ark is better at killing than Heavy Destroyers or Stalkers is hordes, which we don't really struggle with. I guess there's an argument there for the durability, but then you've also got to consider that assault armies with deep strike capabilities (most of them) or highly mobile armies will render your main anti-tank silent on the first or second turn. The Ark seems to me to exist in a world where it's great if you have a very open board against a slow assault army, and worse than the other options otherwise. Bear in mind that against the vast majority of tanks, D3 S10 AP-5 shots is the same as 2 S9 AP-4 shots on average, so you're paying 53 points to become more durable and get some extra gauss flayers. I'll try them out to test my theory, but they just seem worse than the other options. I would rather take a Heat Ray/THGC Stalker for fewer points.
I like the model, and it's an alternate take on heavy weaponry we haven't had before. Sit it on a backfield objective and let it blow stuff up. It gets charged? Fall back and blow stuff away with it's cannon and flayers.
Stalkers and arks lose accuracy as they take more damage, but you have to do more wounds than the equivalent points worth of heavy destroyers have before it degrades, and then it regenerates them back! And it can be repaired, and it's harder to do damage to them
Ooookay, so it looks like we still haven't settled on which is best ("each has it's merits").
So looking at Heavy Destroyers again, better in Heavy slot units of 2 or 3, or a single HD embedded in regular Fast slot units?
Normally I'd say embed them with regulars (gives the unit more models/wounds for RP purposes), but by the looks of it we're going to need a LOT of HDs working together to take down heavy armour/monsters. That either means lots of smaller sized units (like 3 or 4) or paying an enormous amount of points for a handful of very expensive guys (5 or 6, multiplied by four or more units?)
...
Ugh, just thinking about how small an army that would make is making me quite discouraged.
skoffs wrote: Ooookay, so it looks like we still haven't settled on which is best ("each has it's merits").
So looking at Heavy Destroyers again, better in Heavy slot units of 2 or 3, or a single HD embedded in regular Fast slot units?
Normally I'd say embed them with regulars (gives the unit more models/wounds for RP purposes), but by the looks of it we're going to need a LOT of HDs working together to take down heavy armour/monsters. That either means lots of smaller sized units (like 3 or 4) or paying an enormous amount of points for a handful of very expensive guys (5 or 6, multiplied by four or more units?)
...
Ugh, just thinking about how small an army that would make is making me quite discouraged.
I read a battle report of a guy using 3 x 3 HDestroyers squads w/ a DLord, versus Blood Angels. In the first turn he got a Land Raider, a Predator and half a Rhino with those guys.
I have yet to try them on the field, but it certainly is an interesting unit with the new weapon profiles.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...
Orikan
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x H.Destroyers
T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA DDA
2000pts, 4CPs
Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.
Don't you need another HQ?
It's the heavy support detachment so you only need 1HQ.
I had a DDA charged by a flying hive tyrant on turn 1 in a game. QS stopped a lot of the HTs damage then the Ark fell back and shot it in the face. First blood to Necrons lol.
I also think the triarch stalker is going to be huge in negating the -1 to hit that happens when you move the Ddark and doomscythe.
I'm not sure, but I think each stalker can boost the other. Is that right?
The stalker's targeting relay buffs all necron units shooting at a thing so yes that includes other stalkers. The buffs don't stack or anything though.
Sadly you do not get to mitigate the -1 to hit modifiers in the game with re-rolls on 1s, as in if you shoot at flyers or smoke launcher vehicles or whatever you don't re-roll on 1s or 2s because the 2 is subtracted down to a 1. In the rule book next to the psychic and shooting phase rules is a sidebar blurb about re-rolling and that says you do all re-rolling BEFORE you apply modifiers, so you would roll then re-roll your 1s then apply the negative 1 to hit that would reduce more results down to 1. Sucks for both targeting relay and destroyer's hardwired hatred.
Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.
However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.
Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.
However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.
Yup. I remember 5th edition when half our codex was useless. Guess we're back to that. I'm super disappointed too.
And the monolith still isn't worth it. You can get more Gauss shots from a unit of immortals, and they have the same strength and AP. And the particle whip is also lame at only AP-2, and the model is BS 4+ now, which is terrible.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: For anyone that uses the Qaurtermaster app, I have been working on the 8th edition Necron template and just finished it up. I have been working with the main dev throughout the process, and hopefully we'll have it up soon for everyone to use.
Nice thanks for the hard work. Makes it easier for us lazy bums.
It was certainly a labor of love. Made a couple tweaks, and we're planning on it being up this weekend for everybody.
I really don't believe you can create sufficient durability in a rule that can be hamstrung so easily.
It's really not easy at all to drop 20 Warriors in one turn. The volume of fire on the table has gone down substantially. Also, you can still use 5th edition shenanigans like anchoring your blobs behind LOS, like a Mono.
The loss of gauss doesn't help either. It's not that we lost gauss, it's that we lost an edge. The mechanics of 7th made it so that our lack of high strength shooting volume wasn't so glaring. Gauss made our volume viable, while our durability kept our volume up.
Getting -1 (or-2 ) AP for basic weapons on troops more then makes up for this. Now we are wounding light to medium vehicles on 5s and heavy vehicles on 6s, and dropping their save at the same time.
It hurts us very badly that crypteks and overlords have no RP
The fact that Character can no longer be shot at makes this largely a non issue. For the most part, the only damage they will take is a random wound here and there from snipers (which living metal will neutralize), or maybe some in CC.
I totally disagree. Focus fire warriors and get them to 7 casualties and morale starts taking effect. Toughness 4 with a 4+? Nothing special. Once people realize all you need to do is focus fire and wipe a unit to deny RP, it will become the tactic. Remember, everything wounds now.
Gauss was way more effective than the current weapon stats due to the game mechanic for durability being different. Vehicles generally had 3-4 hp and no save. Glances were an easy way to dispatch them.
Once everyone has played a few games, these deficiencies become very obvious....especially our reliance on unimpressive and expensive characters that have no rp
I really don't believe you can create sufficient durability in a rule that can be hamstrung so easily.
It's really not easy at all to drop 20 Warriors in one turn. The volume of fire on the table has gone down substantially. Also, you can still use 5th edition shenanigans like anchoring your blobs behind LOS, like a Mono.
The loss of gauss doesn't help either. It's not that we lost gauss, it's that we lost an edge. The mechanics of 7th made it so that our lack of high strength shooting volume wasn't so glaring. Gauss made our volume viable, while our durability kept our volume up.
Getting -1 (or-2 ) AP for basic weapons on troops more then makes up for this. Now we are wounding light to medium vehicles on 5s and heavy vehicles on 6s, and dropping their save at the same time.
It hurts us very badly that crypteks and overlords have no RP
The fact that Character can no longer be shot at makes this largely a non issue. For the most part, the only damage they will take is a random wound here and there from snipers (which living metal will neutralize), or maybe some in CC.
I totally disagree. Focus fire warriors and get them to 7 casualties and morale starts taking effect. Toughness 4 with a 4+? Nothing special. Once people realize all you need to do is focus fire and wipe a unit to deny RP, it will become the tactic. Remember, everything wounds now.
Gauss was way more effective than the current weapon stats due to the game mechanic for durability being different. Vehicles generally had 3-4 hp and no save. Glances were an easy way to dispatch them.
Once everyone has played a few games, these deficiencies become very obvious....especially our reliance on unimpressive and expensive characters that have no rp
Very unimpressed by RP now, but them's the breaks. 20 man blobs don't feel that important to me, they're expensive and don't have as much impact on the game as 10 man Immortal units. I'm really only considering Warriors if I want to do Ghost Arks, which actually doesn't seem that bad now. On the other hand, Night Scythes + Immortals is more expensive, but I think potentially better in the long run. Dropping 10 Gauss into Rapid Fire range and supporting them with the Destructors is a pretty solid amount of damage.
Thinking something like:
Overlord - Warscythe
Cryptek
Immortals x9 - Gauss
Immortals x9 - Gauss
Immortals x9 - Tesla
Immortals x10 - Tesla
Deathmarks x5
Deathmarks x5
Night Scythe
Night Scythe
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
1996/2000, 6 Command
Lots of decent strength shooting, not the most bodies but also not a super low amount. Lack of screening hurts a bit, but I think there's enough mobility and damage output that eating an early charge won't be the worst thing in the world.
I totally disagree. Focus fire warriors and get them to 7 casualties and morale starts taking effect. Toughness 4 with a 4+? Nothing special. Once people realize all you need to do is focus fire and wipe a unit to deny RP, it will become the tactic. Remember, everything wounds now.
Gauss was way more effective than the current weapon stats due to the game mechanic for durability being different. Vehicles generally had 3-4 hp and no save. Glances were an easy way to dispatch them.
Once everyone has played a few games, these deficiencies become very obvious....especially our reliance on unimpressive and expensive characters that have no rp
I totally agree with you. I played a few games with necrons and they have durability and leadership issues (which feels very wierd to say). Warriors have the durability of a piece of tissue, so they need to be taken in large units so the unit doesn't get wiped, losing RP (this applies to all of our infantry, but warriors have the biggest problem with this). But because they're so flimsy, they'll take a lot of casualties, so morale becomes a problem (T4 4+ is not hard to kill). This means that you'll be spending command points just to keep the unit alive from morale.
Now that vehicles have 6+ wounds and an actual save, getting 1 or 2 in from gauss is a lot less threatening. In 7th, getting 2 HP off a vehicle usually left a vehicle with 1/3 to 1/2 of its total wounds left. In 8th, getting 2 wounds of a vehicle is only 1/3 the total wounds off something like a venom.
I'm really warming up to Tesla. Doubling the shots on the big ones, letting them "snapshoot" with the bonus, and being able to fall back from combat and still shoot makes them pretty appealing. AP0 sucks, but it's honestly a lot, lot of dice. It's almost to the point where I'm considering the Obelisk - still stupid expensive, but you can potentially put out a really dumb number of wounds in one go, has a lot to chew through, and can't be locked down.
Requizen wrote: I'm really warming up to Tesla. Doubling the shots on the big ones, letting them "snapshoot" with the bonus, and being able to fall back from combat and still shoot makes them pretty appealing. AP0 sucks, but it's honestly a lot, lot of dice. It's almost to the point where I'm considering the Obelisk - still stupid expensive, but you can potentially put out a really dumb number of wounds in one go, has a lot to chew through, and can't be locked down.
Obelisk is still overcost for most applications, and doesn't really help us in the areas where are weak, specifically anti-vehicle work. Gravity pulse is so flaky and low damage it might as well not exists. You can get the same offense from 10 immortals with tesla for just over a fourth of the cost. Given that they have painted themselves into a corner with it's points cost compared to a monolith, so they can't just reduce it's price to bring it in line so they are going to have to do something with gravity pulse to make it worthwhile.
Our Codex will be the next balance pass for the obelisk, so if we make some noise and offer good suggestion we might see a fix in there.
here is my suggestion, make gravity pulse affect everyone, and if a unit takes a wound from gravity pulse it can't advance or charge on it's next turn.
Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.
However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.
Yup. I remember 5th edition when half our codex was useless. Guess we're back to that. I'm super disappointed too.
And the monolith still isn't worth it. You can get more Gauss shots from a unit of immortals, and they have the same strength and AP. And the particle whip is also lame at only AP-2, and the model is BS 4+ now, which is terrible.
The Monolith is supposed to be a durable support vehicle in addition to having weapons.
It can deep strike safely and then bring units super close to the enemy safely. It isn't always about the weapon crunching.
Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.
However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.
Yup. I remember 5th edition when half our codex was useless. Guess we're back to that. I'm super disappointed too.
And the monolith still isn't worth it. You can get more Gauss shots from a unit of immortals, and they have the same strength and AP. And the particle whip is also lame at only AP-2, and the model is BS 4+ now, which is terrible.
The Monolith is supposed to be a durable support vehicle in addition to having weapons.
It can deep strike safely and then bring units super close to the enemy safely. It isn't always about the weapon crunching.
For a "support" vehicle it doesn't have any support functions. No buffs or extra reanimation or anything, just the ability to teleport in. Except you can't teleport from it if they just kill it or surround it. So... it's an expensive Drop Pod that works sometimes and doesn't give much shooting. Not sure what to think of that.
Hey so the more I think about our lack of heavy weapons options the more I'm awaiting the FW book. It may be that we have to look that way for Heavy weapon options.
Think about it. Almost all of our FW stuff is a heavy weapons platform. Pylons have long range melta, a souped up HGC, and THE DEATH RAY!
And a bomber
And a huge pylon
And little fast flying bugs with mass melta. (A squad of these being MWBD'ing by a CCB)...
And the barge.
These might plug the gap in our army, with various roles filled by the different units (Heavy anti infantry/Heavy anti vehicle). It's out a month after 8th drops (next Saturday) so I can't see it being too long to wait before our army balances out.
Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.
However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.
Yup. I remember 5th edition when half our codex was useless. Guess we're back to that. I'm super disappointed too.
And the monolith still isn't worth it. You can get more Gauss shots from a unit of immortals, and they have the same strength and AP. And the particle whip is also lame at only AP-2, and the model is BS 4+ now, which is terrible.
The Monolith is supposed to be a durable support vehicle in addition to having weapons.
It can deep strike safely and then bring units super close to the enemy safely. It isn't always about the weapon crunching.
For a "support" vehicle it doesn't have any support functions. No buffs or extra reanimation or anything, just the ability to teleport in. Except you can't teleport from it if they just kill it or surround it. So... it's an expensive Drop Pod that works sometimes and doesn't give much shooting. Not sure what to think of that.
Quoting myself, but that said, I think I'm gonna try it more. Moving assault units with it is dumb, but Warriors or Immortals coming out it it might not be too bad. Just depends on the army you're facing.
Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.
However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.
Yup. I remember 5th edition when half our codex was useless. Guess we're back to that. I'm super disappointed too.
And the monolith still isn't worth it. You can get more Gauss shots from a unit of immortals, and they have the same strength and AP. And the particle whip is also lame at only AP-2, and the model is BS 4+ now, which is terrible.
That's because the monolith isn't a combat unit. Its a support/transport unit. It's always been that way. Even in 3rd ed its offensive capabilities were mediocre compared to the other factions. But yeah, the 4+ to hit sucks. Maybe its a typo or something, but I doubt it.
Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.
However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.
Yup. I remember 5th edition when half our codex was useless. Guess we're back to that. I'm super disappointed too.
And the monolith still isn't worth it. You can get more Gauss shots from a unit of immortals, and they have the same strength and AP. And the particle whip is also lame at only AP-2, and the model is BS 4+ now, which is terrible.
That's because the monolith isn't a combat unit. Its a support/transport unit. It's always been that way. Even in 3rd ed its offensive capabilities were mediocre compared to the other factions.
But yeah, the 4+ to hit sucks. Maybe its a typo or something, but I doubt it.
As you are the second person to say that, I'll just reply to one of you. The monolith is almost 400 points, has no invuln or QS, and 20 wounds. It has to sit a round before it can bring dudes up, and it's not hard to deal with by almost all armies. It is just simply not worth it.
Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.
However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.
Yup. I remember 5th edition when half our codex was useless. Guess we're back to that. I'm super disappointed too.
And the monolith still isn't worth it. You can get more Gauss shots from a unit of immortals, and they have the same strength and AP. And the particle whip is also lame at only AP-2, and the model is BS 4+ now, which is terrible.
That's because the monolith isn't a combat unit. Its a support/transport unit. It's always been that way. Even in 3rd ed its offensive capabilities were mediocre compared to the other factions.
But yeah, the 4+ to hit sucks. Maybe its a typo or something, but I doubt it.
As you are the second person to say that, I'll just reply to one of you. The monolith is almost 400 points, has no invuln or QS, and 20 wounds. It has to sit a round before it can bring dudes up, and it's not hard to deal with by almost all armies. It is just simply not worth it.
Yeah I can see that reasoning. It could use a bit more utility and a defensive buff. Maybe regen 3 wounds instead of 1 or something.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...
Orikan
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x H.Destroyers
T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA DDA
2000pts, 4CPs
Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.
Don't you need another HQ?
It's the heavy support detachment so you only need 1HQ.
I had a DDA charged by a flying hive tyrant on turn 1 in a game. QS stopped a lot of the HTs damage then the Ark fell back and shot it in the face. First blood to Necrons lol.
You're probably right, but just so I understand till I'll be building my own lists; that is not a battalion + heavy support? Since battalion also requires 2 HQs? How do you get 4CPs
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...
Orikan
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x H.Destroyers
T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA DDA
2000pts, 4CPs
Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.
Don't you need another HQ?
It's the heavy support detachment so you only need 1HQ.
I had a DDA charged by a flying hive tyrant on turn 1 in a game. QS stopped a lot of the HTs damage then the Ark fell back and shot it in the face. First blood to Necrons lol.
You're probably right, but just so I understand till I'll be building my own lists; that is not a battalion + heavy support? Since battalion also requires 2 HQs? How do you get 4CPs
All Battleforged lists provide 3CP base. The heavy support detachment gives +1 CP 3+1 = 4CP
Klowny wrote: Hey so the more I think about our lack of heavy weapons options the more I'm awaiting the FW book. It may be that we have to look that way for Heavy weapon options.
Think about it. Almost all of our FW stuff is a heavy weapons platform. Pylons have long range melta, a souped up HGC, and THE DEATH RAY!
And a bomber
And a huge pylon
And little fast flying bugs with mass melta. (A squad of these being MWBD'ing by a CCB)...
And the barge.
These might plug the gap in our army, with various roles filled by the different units (Heavy anti infantry/Heavy anti vehicle). It's out a month after 8th drops (next Saturday) so I can't see it being too long to wait before our army balances out.
Since there is a concrete possibility that the Pound will keep dropping in the near future (due to the UK general election's result), I am really considering a FW order mid-summer. I'll wait the FW Index to decide on what models to buy.
The sad thing is that playing with FW models will still be as difficult as it has always been (TO not allowing models, random guys that refuse to even play against FW stuff, ...).
I would buy a Tesseract Vault or Pylon in a heartbeat if they were worthwhile. I have a Tomb Stalker I never built because they were just terrible in 6th/7th.
Im seriously looking at aranthracites, barge, pylons. Has been looking glum for me the last few days until I realised I was working on some FW and then remembered the rest of the range.
So something we haven't discussed yet - fortifications.
Normally Fortifications aren't really for Necrons. They're for armies that have extreme range weaponry on troops and don't care about moving (Tau, Devastators, Guard), but now with Tesla Immortals being extremely good, they might be worth a shot.
An Aegis Line with an Icarus Autocannon in front of 10 Immortals and an Overlord gives you a solid 2+ shooting unit anywhere your choice in your DZ, for 100 points (105 with Quad). The gun is a bit crap, but plenty of things have the Fly keyword now, so not all that bad.
A VSG is 190 and gives a 4++ to everything within a foot. Hello invuln HDestroyers, Doomsday arks, and Annihilation Barges! Expensive, though.
A Skyshield is only 110 and gives anything on top a 5++. You can easily fit two DDArks on there, though I'm not sure they need the Invuln given QS.
The Defense Line is probably the best option, able to cover two units of Immortals easily. You can get 2+ in any cover, sure, but the line lets you place it where you need, say on an objective or in firing range of midfield objectives.
Just found this gem of a thread, so sorry if I post an idea already covered.
I've been limited to small games of 8th while I try to learn all the rules, but I came across a pretty potent combo.
Take a Cryptek, an Overlord, a 10 man Immortal unit, and a Triarch Stalker.
Stick the Overlord/Cryptek behind the Immortals and the Stalker somewhat close. Nominate the Immortals for the Overlords 'My Will Be Done'.
Pick a unit in range, than shoot at it with the Stalker, then the Immortals, if you hit with the Stalker the Immortals will have 20 shots hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1's.
This works well when you take 2 Night Scythes and 2 warrior blobs, take the night Scythes and move them the full 60" up, if they survive a turn of shooting you can drop the 20-40 warriors behind or in front of the enemy. This also works well with 2 units of Praetorians.
I totally disagree. Focus fire warriors and get them to 7 casualties and morale starts taking effect. Toughness 4 with a 4+? Nothing special. Once people realize all you need to do is focus fire and wipe a unit to deny RP, it will become the tactic. Remember, everything wounds now.
Gauss was way more effective than the current weapon stats due to the game mechanic for durability being different. Vehicles generally had 3-4 hp and no save. Glances were an easy way to dispatch them.
Once everyone has played a few games, these deficiencies become very obvious....especially our reliance on unimpressive and expensive characters that have no rp
First, everybody realized the way to deal with RP instantly. It's not a big secret. Second, until you've taken at least 12 casualties on a 20 man blob, you're really not fearing the effects of moral at all. In range of a Cryptek and a GA you are getting 75% of your casualties back every single turn.
I really don't think you fully appreciate what a non issue the lack of RP is on Characters. Play a few games. They simply don't need it anymore.
I'm starting to wonder if a more fast elite style force is better. Tomb Blades, Praetorians, Destroyers, and Wraiths are all T5 multiwound models that move fast and (aside from the Wraiths) have good damage output. With a couple DLords to keep up with them you can easily take a very fast force that will almost never be wounded on 2+ (very few S10 guns in the game).
T5 multiwound, I think, is going to be a big part of the meta. TWC, Bikes, Wraithguard, etc. All of those units fit that profile and also are pretty good at killing those units: AP-3 damage on both Praets and Destroyers, shooting and combat on the former and d3 damage on the latter. And Tomb Blades put out a pretty silly number of shots.
The monolith is almost 400 points, has no invuln or QS, and 20 wounds. It has to sit a round before it can bring dudes up, and it's not hard to deal with by almost all armies. It is just simply not worth it.
I'm a little skeptic about the current iteration as well, but I'm not sure if it's not worth it, yet. It's volume of fire somewhat makes up for it's poor BS and the fact that it's a giant LOS blocker is one that people seem to completely over look, and have been for 5 editions now. That's arguably it's number 1 trait.
That being said, I agree the current price tag is very limiting.
Hitting, on average, with 6 S5 AP -2 and 3 S8 AP -2 D3 shots isn't awful, really. 5 Destroyers and 1 HD costs almost exactly the same and hits with 7.77 S5 Ap -2 shot and (7/9) S9 AP 04 D6 shots a turn. It's firepower turns out to be pretty comparable to other options.
Taking the comparison further, you get 20 T8 3+ wounds with living metal versus 18 T5 3+ wounds with RP, which seems pretty equitable.
You also, of course, get all the utility previously mentioned. Actually, now that I've gone through that exercise, it seems pretty reasonably priced.
The basic idea is put Zahndrekh and Orikan behind the Warriors and Immortals. The Lychguard would go behind the HQs to block from deep strike assault, and also the Guardian Protocols on the Lychguard would protect wounds on the HQs. One DDA behind the main line. The other DDA, Stalker, and Praetorians come up along the sides and grab objectives with their faster movement. This list provides pretty sizable infantry shot output to counter horde armies (which I feel are going to dominate the meta), provide a screen for our HQs, and also some solid heavy damage to take out a few enemy tanks. You get a Battleforged Battalion for some solid command points, and if somehow you whittled another HQ in there, you'd be able to grab yourself an extra Spearhead Detachment.
Shadar_Logoth wrote: Second, until you've taken at least 12 casualties on a 20 man blob, you're really not fearing the effects of moral at all.
If you lost 12 warriors, aren't you losing D6 + 2 warriors to morale?
Pretty sure it's 12 (casualties) - 10 (LD) + D6
Moral states that for every unit, you "roll a dice and add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn... For each point that the test is failed by, one model in that unit must flee and is removed from play."
So, since our Warriors have a Leadership of 10, and a max dice roll is 6, we must lose 5 Warriors in the turn before a Moral Test can affect our unit. Once the unit has lost 10 Warriors in that turn, it will automatically lose at least 1 Warrior, and up to 6. Thus, for an opponent to guarantee on the 20-Warrior unit being wiped from Moral, they need to kill 15 Warriors:
The monolith is almost 400 points, has no invuln or QS, and 20 wounds. It has to sit a round before it can bring dudes up, and it's not hard to deal with by almost all armies. It is just simply not worth it.
I'm a little skeptic about the current iteration as well, but I'm not sure if it's not worth it, yet. It's volume of fire somewhat makes up for it's poor BS and the fact that it's a giant LOS blocker is one that people seem to completely over look, and have been for 5 editions now. That's arguably it's number 1 trait.
That being said, I agree the current price tag is very limiting.
Hitting, on average, with 6 S5 AP -2 and 3 S8 AP -2 D3 shots isn't awful, really. 5 Destroyers and 1 HD costs almost exactly the same and hits with 7.77 S5 Ap -2 shot and (7/9) S9 AP 04 D6 shots a turn. It's firepower turns out to be pretty comparable to other options.
Shadar_Logoth wrote: Second, until you've taken at least 12 casualties on a 20 man blob, you're really not fearing the effects of moral at all.
If you lost 12 warriors, aren't you losing D6 + 2 warriors to morale?
Pretty sure it's 12 (casualties) - 10 (LD) + D6
Yeah, exactly, and you would need to roll a 6 to wipe.
My point is, until you are in fear of wiping completely, Warriors backed with a GA and Crypteks are extremely hardy.
You're assuming a lot. My point was that morale starts creating more casualties. This lessens durability and increases the likely hood of being wiped. Morale begins impacting at about 7 casualties.
20 t4 4+ models aren't very durable and aren't hard to wipe out with sustained fire. People realize that we don't get RP if they wipe out the unit, but I don't think they fully grasp how damaging that is to our army...... yet. They will.
Volume of fire is very necessary for crons. It's critical due to a lack of high strength shooting. Targeting warriors, or their support is an easy way to drastically decrease offensive capabilities.
Its all opinion. You think they'll do better than I do....i hope you're right, but I think you're wrong. Until we get some adjustments I think its going to be a little rough. I'm still going to play and have fun though
I think you are some what overstating how easy it will be to shift 20 warriors. Cover is still a thing, so boosting that 4+ to a 2 or 3+ before AP will still happen. It's also very easy to get them a 5++ as well.
That's not to say it won't happen ever, but it's going to be a pretty big gamble. You leave a single Warrior on the board and 75% of your fire power will have been completely wasted.
Immortals x9 - Gauss
Immortals x9 - Gauss
Immortals x9 - Tesla
Immortals x10 - Tesla
Deathmarks x5
Deathmarks x5
Night Scythe
Night Scythe
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
1996/2000, 6 Command
Looks similar to what I've been toying with, though you may want to consider adding a D.Lord there (would you give a Outrider detachment)
Requizen wrote: I'm starting to wonder if a more fast elite style force is better. Tomb Blades, Praetorians, Destroyers, and Wraiths are all T5 multiwound models that move fast and (aside from the Wraiths) have good damage output. With a couple DLords to keep up with them you can easily take a very fast force that will almost never be wounded on 2+ (very few S10 guns in the game).
T5 multiwound, I think, is going to be a big part of the meta. TWC, Bikes, Wraithguard, etc. All of those units fit that profile and also are pretty good at killing those units: AP-3 damage on both Praets and Destroyers, shooting and combat on the former and d3 damage on the latter. And Tomb Blades put out a pretty silly number of shots.
Also what I was thinking. The struggle there is, with the price points of those models, you're not going to be able to fit many in a list... I guess you could just skip making a Battalion and just make Outrider and Vanguard detachments? (will make a very small model number army, though)
I made a test army out of pure Destroyers (with some pet Scarabs) just to see what it would look like.
Spoiler:
D.Lord (Staff, Orb) : 177
D.Lord (Staff, Orb) : 177
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
4 Scarabs : 52
= 1990
I've been limited to small games of 8th while I try to learn all the rules, but I came across a pretty potent combo.
Take a Cryptek, an Overlord, a 10 man Immortal unit, and a Triarch Stalker.
Stick the Overlord/Cryptek behind the Immortals and the Stalker somewhat close. Nominate the Immortals for the Overlords 'My Will Be Done'.
Pick a unit in range, than shoot at it with the Stalker, then the Immortals, if you hit with the Stalker the Immortals will have 20 shots hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1's.
This works well when you take 2 Night Scythes and 2 warrior blobs, take the night Scythes and move them the full 60" up, if they survive a turn of shooting you can drop the 20-40 warriors behind or in front of the enemy. This also works well with 2 units of Praetorians.
Just my 2 cents
Yeah stalker and Overlord buffs make tesla immortals pretty OP. Also welcome to the thread, we are in an unusual state at the moment as we wrestle with the implications of 8th ed, normally we are a bit more focused and a little less "Oh Shiny!".
Someone may come along and make me a liar with some awesome lists, but for now tomb world deploy probably is not worth the risk. No other transports have the gotchas ours do, if you blow up a rhino you might loose one in six, if you blow up a night scythe it is a 100% kill without another portal. You have to bring in the units at the beginning of your movement, Which means all of our disembarking happens at turn two at the earliest. The final nail in the coffin is that you can also only do one unit per turn per night scythe/monolith. It's aggravatingly lame in comparison to the deep strike/transport options the other armies have. If you want to move your units around and be clever with deployment you'll need to take deceiver.
Immortals x9 - Gauss
Immortals x9 - Gauss
Immortals x9 - Tesla
Immortals x10 - Tesla
Deathmarks x5
Deathmarks x5
Night Scythe
Night Scythe
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
Destroyers - 2x Regular, 1x Heavy
1996/2000, 6 Command
Looks similar to what I've been toying with, though you may want to consider adding a D.Lord there (would you give a Outrider detachment)
Requizen wrote: I'm starting to wonder if a more fast elite style force is better. Tomb Blades, Praetorians, Destroyers, and Wraiths are all T5 multiwound models that move fast and (aside from the Wraiths) have good damage output. With a couple DLords to keep up with them you can easily take a very fast force that will almost never be wounded on 2+ (very few S10 guns in the game).
T5 multiwound, I think, is going to be a big part of the meta. TWC, Bikes, Wraithguard, etc. All of those units fit that profile and also are pretty good at killing those units: AP-3 damage on both Praets and Destroyers, shooting and combat on the former and d3 damage on the latter. And Tomb Blades put out a pretty silly number of shots.
Also what I was thinking. The struggle there is, with the price points of those models, you're not going to be able to fit many in a list... I guess you could just skip making a Battalion and just make Outrider and Vanguard detachments? (will make a very small model number army, though)
I made a test army out of pure Destroyers (with some pet Scarabs) just to see what it would look like.
Spoiler:
D.Lord (Staff, Orb) : 177
D.Lord (Staff, Orb) : 177
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
3 Destroyers + 1 Heavy : 264
4 Scarabs : 52
= 1990
... :/
Losing Battalion is fine. CPs are good but they're not the end all be all, and we can take a unit or two of Troops if we need them.
I've been limited to small games of 8th while I try to learn all the rules, but I came across a pretty potent combo.
Take a Cryptek, an Overlord, a 10 man Immortal unit, and a Triarch Stalker.
Stick the Overlord/Cryptek behind the Immortals and the Stalker somewhat close. Nominate the Immortals for the Overlords 'My Will Be Done'.
Pick a unit in range, than shoot at it with the Stalker, then the Immortals, if you hit with the Stalker the Immortals will have 20 shots hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1's.
This works well when you take 2 Night Scythes and 2 warrior blobs, take the night Scythes and move them the full 60" up, if they survive a turn of shooting you can drop the 20-40 warriors behind or in front of the enemy. This also works well with 2 units of Praetorians.
Just my 2 cents
Yeah stalker and Overlord buffs make tesla immortals pretty OP. Also welcome to the thread, we are in an unusual state at the moment as we wrestle with the implications of 8th ed, normally we are a bit more focused and a little less "Oh Shiny!".
Someone may come along and make me a liar with some awesome lists, but for now tomb world deploy probably is not worth the risk. No other transports have the gotchas ours do, if you blow up a rhino you might loose one in six, if you blow up a night scythe it is a 100% kill without another portal. You have to bring in the units at the beginning of your movement, Which means all of our disembarking happens at turn two at the earliest. The final nail in the coffin is that you can also only do one unit per turn per night scythe/monolith. It's aggravatingly lame in comparison to the deep strike/transport options the other armies have. If you want to move your units around and be clever with deployment you'll need to take deceiver.
Tomb World deploy is ok if you bring multiple sources. Multiple Scythes isn't even bad.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Pick a unit in range, than shoot at it with the Stalker, then the Immortals, if you hit with the Stalker the Immortals will have 20 shots hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1's.
Yup, this also works with just Overlords giving MWBD to Destroyers (2+ to hit, rerolling 1s).
Though if you take a Stalker, probably don't need to bring Destroyers (and vice versa).
Hello everyone! I have been lurking here for a few days and somehow managed to read everything about 8th edition till now A very quick introduction: I've been in the hobby since like 2008 I belive, I loved Necrons from the beginning, but had a huge, 3 year break between 5th ed and 7th - got back to Warhammer in January this year, 'cause my Necrons were calling me back (and a friend of mine too!)
A few things I'd like to say:
I think we should make a list of things we'd like to be improved/changed in our index, to send to GW after the official release
Among others I think that:
1. Stalker should be "Add +1 to BS" instead of rerolling ones - makes waaay more sense fluff-wise to increase Necrons' BS through some targeting program
2. Imotekh's LD should be 10 xd
3. Doomscythes should have some advanced targeting systems, aka no -1 to hit pretty please, unless you want us to eat our croissants
3. Bring back at least one or two artifacts - our Overlords have literally 0 options, and other factions do have a lot of them - Veil of Darkness pretty please, maybe some other cool Necron artifacts - I really miss the fluff they had
4. Some Keyword fixing, like poor 'ol Anrakyr and his inability to be transported - I guess it just has to be changed
5. Point reduction - from what I have read, some of our units are just waaay to overpriced for what they do, so some cutting will be needed
That's all I can come up for now, but we can think about making a list;
Second thing: what kind of units would you like to see in new codex? Undoubtedly we'll be getting some new units, 'cause everyone else for sure will - and it's been a really long time since a big release (2011 to be precise, excluding Tes. Vault)
I think we need 1-2 more troops - some heavy support troops perhaps? Like Marines Dev. Squads or something like this. More semi-long range support - something with 48" range against hordes imo. More transports - we can't really reliably transport pretty much anything except Warriors - sure, Monolith/Night Scythe, but they have big flaws, nothing as universal as Land Raider or Stormraven (my Grey Knights kick in ). More universal HQ wouldn't hurt - perhaps Phaeron model? Even more supportive Overlord-like model. Again, these are all the things I have in my head for now, but it doesn't mean the list is closed!
Third, and last, I came up with an army like this:
Spoiler:
Older format, aka 1850 points battle - this is 1846 pts list
HQ Overlord + Staff of Light 119 pts -> Tomb World
Cryptek + Staff of Light 104 pts -> Ghost Ark
Elites
C’tan Shard of the Deceiver 225 pts -> Battlefield
Heavy Support
Monolith 381 pts -> Battlefield
Doomsday Ark 203 pts -> Battlefield
Battalion Detachment + 3 CP Total: 6 CP
Tactics: Deceiver alpha strike, TP Monolith and Ghost Ark with 9 Warriors and Cryptek turn 1, 10 Immortals come out of Monolith and do their stuff; NS rushes across the board, turn two drops 15 Warriors, Overlord comes out of Monolith to give MWBD and help with everything, Deceiver sadly flies across the board - although with 8" movement it might not be THAT terrible, just will have to hide somehow, Doomsday Ark shoots down whatever needs to be dead;
Choice is dictated by two things - my lack of certain models - I don't have Stalker and have no way to proxy one yet (Deceiver will be flying Tau Crisis Commander, as they should be more or less the same size) and knowledge about the opponent - similarly random Tau army, though with a Stormsurge that will need to be brought down as quickly as possible.
What do you guys think about this army? Will it do anything?
If you have read till now - thanks for your time! Introduction posts can be a 'lil bit long xD
Elites
C’tan Shard of the Deceiver 225 pts -> Battlefield
Heavy Support
Monolith 381 pts -> Battlefield
Doomsday Ark 203 pts -> Battlefield
Battalion Detachment + 3 CP Total: 6 CP
Yeah, looks alright.
Just be wary that your list depends entirely on getting first turn.
If something happens that goes against your plan, you're going to be stuck and very vulnerable.
Yes, this is the biggest problem here - but I think that, thanks to having 10 units, I'll be able to finish deploying first and somehow get the first turn. If not, I'll have to come up with another plan but as mentioned, this list is made purely against my friend's Tau, so it's very biased - I'll have to buy more models in order to make an all-round army (generic Overlord, Warrior Ark Phalanx and Start Collecting will be next targets I guess, to get a good amount of Warriors, backed up with Ghost Ark (I only have one model, so flying gun aka Doomsday Ark time xd)
I'm thinking a list around Night Scythes makes for an excellent strike with Lychguard. They're significantly more durable than before with two wounds, and they won't kill things quickly enough so that they'll be in combat likely on the opponents turn as well.
How's the idea of doing two Squads, one with Scythes and one with Shields, for those sorta drops? I see it doing pretty well.
Anyone know of a working online list builder that has the 8th stuff up?
I know Battlescribe has theirs more or less sorted out, but I need one I can access from anywhere online and edit/adjust/share.
The gist is as they were talking about that horrible batrap with Necrons VS IG Armor a chat person kept on them when they mumbled about how you could use HDestroyers and T Starkers are ok.... Reece could not hold it in and pretty much said this.
"We can't talk about it yet till forgeworld releases their book but... lets just say Necrons will have plenty of options for good anti armor to choose from"
Woooo yes! We all felt like there was some pieces missing from this puzzle called balance and I guess Forgeworld is a large part of ours.
Go to: https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/tree/40k8eprep Click on clone or download, download the zip. Once it's down, open the zip and extract it to your battlescribe data folder (Mine was located at C:\Users\randa\BattleScribe\data, you will replace "randa" with the name for your windows user) and bam 8th ed in your battle scribe on PC.
Also I just had a match you guys are going to call me a freaking liar for winning, with this List I just tabled an army of four renegade knights with magnus. So here is the setup:
In deployment I spread out in my deployment zone, setup in the back of my deployment area, most of his knights are set up for close combat, so he spreads out to match my deployment. Set magnus on the left side matching where I deployed my destroyers and my D-lord screened by immortals. He has a knight right by magnus on the left side, and the other three knights are mid board to right side. He goes first, and magnus is in my face turn 1, offs all of my tesla immortals but can't consolidate into my destroyers. There is some shooting but it gets two warriors and a wound that heals on the ghost ark.
It's my turn now, roll a 3 for deceivers grand illusion power, and take the entire left side of my board and place it behind magnus. magnus was stupid tough, and he finally dies in the assault phase finished off by a charge from the deceiver. 20% of his army is gone, and I've lost a unit of immortals and 4 or so warriors from my 20 man blob.
What follows is four turns of me killing his knights one at a time, and him making some mistakes like using his sword instead of stomping my warriors. By the end of the game, I'd lost the ghost ark, half my warriors blob, a squad of immortals, the deceiver and my D-lord. Proudest moment was when the warriors finished off the last two wounds of a knight in CC. He charged me and thought I'd fall back, but a quick math hammer said It was just outside of likely that i could finish him with my warriors.
Go to: https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/tree/40k8eprep Click on clone or download, download the zip. Once it's down, open the zip and extract it to your battlescribe data folder (Mine was located at C:\Users\randa\BattleScribe\data, you will replace "randa" with the name for your windows user) and bam 8th ed in your battle scribe on PC.
...
But I already have it for Battlescribe.
I need it for online.
(.__.)
Nice one Grimgold!
Question: Did you feel that reanimation played a important roll in that win? Like did most of your HDestroyers come back or did he kill over 25 warriors but by the time you charged with them they were still at a respectable number?
Go to: https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/tree/40k8eprep Click on clone or download, download the zip. Once it's down, open the zip and extract it to your battlescribe data folder (Mine was located at C:\Users\randa\BattleScribe\data, you will replace "randa" with the name for your windows user) and bam 8th ed in your battle scribe on PC.
Also I just had a match you guys are going to call me a freaking liar for winning, with this List I just tabled an army of four renegade knights with magnus. So here is the setup:
In deployment I spread out in my deployment zone, setup in the back of my deployment area, most of his knights are set up for close combat, so he spreads out to match my deployment. Set magnus on the left side matching where I deployed my destroyers and my D-lord screened by immortals. He has a knight right by magnus on the left side, and the other three knights are mid board to right side. He goes first, and magnus is in my face turn 1, offs all of my tesla immortals but can't consolidate into my destroyers. There is some shooting but it gets two warriors and a wound that heals on the ghost ark.
It's my turn now, roll a 3 for deceivers grand illusion power, and take the entire left side of my board and place it behind magnus. magnus was stupid tough, and he finally dies in the assault phase finished off by a charge from the deceiver. 20% of his army is gone, and I've lost a unit of immortals and 4 or so warriors from my 20 man blob.
What follows is four turns of me killing his knights one at a time, and him making some mistakes like using his sword instead of stomping my warriors. By the end of the game, I'd lost the ghost ark, half my warriors blob, a squad of immortals, the deceiver and my D-lord. Proudest moment was when the warriors finished off the last two wounds of a knight in CC. He charged me and thought I'd fall back, but a quick math hammer said It was just outside of likely that i could finish him with my warriors.
Unfortunately, you inadvertently cheated. The Deceiver's power happens before the first Battle Round, which means before the first player's turn. Battle Rounds are comprised of both player's turns, so you would have had to redeploy before his turn, meaning an alive Magnus.
maybe download it for battlescribe on your phone? Online is a hard venue for list building, because they have to store the data server side, in the application that that can use the data. It's a fairly easy to litigate that out of existence.
Also I'm starting to come around to the idea that maybe we don't do so well against vehicles. In my other battles it was mostly infantry, and I didn't feel outmanned or outgunned. Against the knights I knew from setup I was not going to win a toe to toe fight, hell he brought more wounds than I had and his minimum toughness was 7. It's not only us, I think vehicles might be overturned currently.
Unfortunately, you inadvertently cheated. The Deceiver's power happens before the first Battle Round, which means before the first player's turn. Battle Rounds are comprised of both player's turns, so you would have had to redeploy before his turn, meaning an alive Magnus.
Sorry
You're killin me smalls , oh well it was bound to happen that I got a rule wrong. Still i would have gotten that magnus, The immortals would have cooked his goose if he hadn't taken them out. If he didn't overextend that would have been a much tougher battle, and the outcome much less likely to go my way.
Doomsday Ark is great at killing vehicles.
Annihilation Barges miiiiiight be okay at killing hordes.
Stalkers can be good at killing most anything (heavy flamers, melta, HGC) and helps the above two to a decent degree.
I think the only thing keeping me from trying a list out is the lack of open topped on Ghost Arks (so occupants can't fire out).
That and I can't see taking the CCB being of much use to an army like that.
Either way, looks like Scarabs are going to be required for all lists (cheaper disposable screening units are an auto-take in 8th).
The gist is as they were talking about that horrible batrap with Necrons VS IG Armor a chat person kept on them when they mumbled about how you could use HDestroyers and T Starkers are ok.... Reece could not hold it in and pretty much said this.
"We can't talk about it yet till forgeworld releases their book but... lets just say Necrons will have plenty of options for good anti armor to choose from"
Woooo yes! We all felt like there was some pieces missing from this puzzle called balance and I guess Forgeworld is a large part of ours.
So all those sweet 7th edition destroyers go to the shelf to gather dust for a year while we play with the FW stuff to have a fighting chance? I'm not back to being happy again. :(
Whilst FW may be nice, I'd rather have something in the codex. FW is pretty expensive, and its hard to find it on ebay.
The GW stuff is more accessible for me, and I hate the idea of our good units being outside of the main book.
So all those sweet 7th edition destroyers go to the shelf to gather dust for a year while we play with the FW stuff to have a fighting chance? I'm not back to being happy again. :(
Where are ya'll getting this information from? (Not the FW stuff, the fighting chance stuff).
Necrons are performing very well right now, for anyone who is actually playing games with them. I think the negative nancies are still trying to judge the codex in a 7th edition paradigm and haven't actually played any games in 8th yet.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current codex. Just build and army, play some games, then formulate an opinion.
Shadar_Logoth wrote: Necrons are performing very well right now, for anyone who is actually playing games with them. I think the negative nancies are still trying to judge the codex in a 7th edition paradigm and haven't actually played any games in 8th yet.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current codex. Just build and army, play some games, then formulate an opinion.
If you've got something that worked well for you, please let everyone know.
We're just trying to look at what's out there and we're not really seeing anything stand out.
(Particularly worrying is the lack of ways to handle certain things).
Both troop options are above average, and the GA is pretty amazing with Warriors. The various C'Tan options are performing very well. Their character status in 8th edition was a godsend (pun intended).
Both types of Destroyers are doing well, and though I haven't tried them yet, I'm thinking Stalkers paired with DAs and or Monos could do quite well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been running either 20 or 10, although I've been eyeing 15 as it seems like it might be a sweet spot for moral.
If you run 20, don't forgot the auto pass moral stratagem. That can be amazingly clutch.
The gist is as they were talking about that horrible batrap with Necrons VS IG Armor a chat person kept on them when they mumbled about how you could use HDestroyers and T Starkers are ok.... Reece could not hold it in and pretty much said this.
"We can't talk about it yet till forgeworld releases their book but... lets just say Necrons will have plenty of options for good anti armor to choose from"
Woooo yes! We all felt like there was some pieces missing from this puzzle called balance and I guess Forgeworld is a large part of ours.
So all those sweet 7th edition destroyers go to the shelf to gather dust for a year while we play with the FW stuff to have a fighting chance? I'm not back to being happy again. :(
Told y'all.
Melta wraiths minus the invulnerable, big Melta cannon/superheavy gun, some decent monstrous creatures if they finally have a better move stat...
For a Battalion how does everyone feel about 3 units of 10 Immortals and a Overlord! 2 with Gauss and 1 with Tesla using MWBD on the Tesla immos to get 5+ for 3 hits.
My opinion;
Models and wounds will be low and the all the units will be slow moving. But at 600-700 pts you have a good few points left over to bring a few fast moving units. Maybe use the Deceiver to Grand Illusion 1-3 units and a Nightscythe to deploy the remaining unit up to your opponents side and do lots of shooty damage. Be very luck based due to rolling d3 for Grand Illusion but just an idea.
After some 8th games I'm a little more optimistic on the necrons. They just play very, very differently in 8th and almost feel like a 3rd edition army again.
Basically, the army pays for resurrection protocols so units that don't use them fall to second priority. You need to max out, or close to max out units you take. But I've found that even 15 warrior man squads are only 180 points and can put out the hurt.
The big reason why I feel like they play the old school phalanx style as well is that on the whole, we actually arn't that durable. It's only the coming back aspect that has the value so you just need to make sure your list has plenty, and I mean plenty, or units and models and you can pretty much overwhelm an enemy.
For magic players 7th played like a blue control deck while 8th plays like a green token spam list.
buddha wrote: After some 8th games I'm a little more optimistic on the necrons. They just play very, very differently in 8th and almost feel like a 3rd edition army again.
Basically, the army pays for resurrection protocols so units that don't use them fall to second priority. You need to max out, or close to max out units you take. But I've found that even 15 warrior man squads are only 180 points and can put out the hurt.
The big reason why I feel like they play the old school phalanx style as well is that on the whole, we actually arn't that durable. It's only the coming back aspect that has the value so you just need to make sure your list has plenty, and I mean plenty, or units and models and you can pretty much overwhelm an enemy.
For magic players 7th played like a blue control deck while 8th plays like a green token spam list.
Yeah, I can see the parallels to 3rd ed as well. Phase Out is even back in a way; the new morale rules are somewhat reminescent of it. I do hope they build upon that style of play in the codex. Maybe we'll get our teleportation shenanigans back and some nice heavy vehicles. Maybe a ball with a deathray or something.
I was thinking about buying into Necrons for 8th, since the rules seem a lot more streamlined and playable. I tend to prefer smaller and shorter games/less clutter so i'm thinking 500-750 points. Problem is without the index in hand I can't really go crazy making lists. But if I were to get models ahead of time I should be safe with two boxes of warriors and an overlord and praetorians?
I wonder if the triarch praetorians will be better in this edition, it does sound like it. They are my favorite looking of the necron elite units. But i'm not sure how good they are in 500-750 pt games. Overall it seems like I still have a lot to figure out in the coming weeks.
Thargrim wrote: if I were to get models ahead of time should I be safe with two boxes of warriors and an overlord and praetorians?
I wonder if the triarch praetorians will be better in this edition, it does sound like it.
I wouldn't call Praetorians a "safe" buy. Not "bad" by any means, but definitely not auto-include like the Warriors and Overlord. Their main issue is that they can't be buffed by things like MWBD (unless it's from Anrakyr or Imotekh) and can't benefit from the improved RP that Crypteks give out (unless it's from Szeras). Also no way to give them good saves (Chronometron only extends to <Dynasty> infantry, which they are not). I'm really hoping there's some good way to run them, but at the moment I'm not seeing it... On the other hand, that box's other build (Lychguard) may play a crucial role. It'll depend on how the meta goes, whether taking out characters to try to disrupt enemy buffing combos becomes a widespread tactic. If snipers start appearing in every list, then Lychguard may have to become auto-include if we want to keep our Royal Court combo bubbles alive.
if I were to get models ahead of time should I be safe with two boxes of warriors and an overlord and praetorians?
I wonder if the triarch praetorians will be better in this edition, it does sound like it.
I would buy a Staring Collecting box of Necrons as you will get a Triarch Stalker and a few scarabs as well the warriors and Overlord. If you can, try get the Phalanx box that came with warriors and a Ghost/Doomsday Ark. Another great value box.
If going for Praetorians maybe research the Lynch as well as the box makes either of them. I personally go for Lynch due to Guardian Protocols and the <Dynasty> keyword.
Prets are good too due to their movement and their RoC works as both shooty and melee but they lack any keyword besides Necrons so you will be limited to the buffs they can get.
Thargrim wrote: if I were to get models ahead of time should I be safe with two boxes of warriors and an overlord and praetorians?
I wonder if the triarch praetorians will be better in this edition, it does sound like it.
I wouldn't call Praetorians a "safe" buy.
Not "bad" by any means, but definitely not auto-include like the Warriors and Overlord.
Their main issue is that they can't be buffed by things like MWBD (unless it's from Anrakyr or Imotekh) and can't benefit from the improved RP that Crypteks give out (unless it's from Szeras). Also no way to give them good saves (Chronometron only extends to <Dynasty> infantry, which they are not).
I'm really hoping there's some good way to run them, but at the moment I'm not seeing it...
On the other hand, that box's other build (Lychguard) may play a crucial role. It'll depend on how the meta goes, whether taking out characters to try to disrupt enemy buffing combos becomes a widespread tactic. If snipers start appearing in every list, then Lychguard may have to become auto-include if we want to keep our Royal Court combo bubbles alive.
Hmm, well if i'm running a low points level game it would not be likely i'd be using any named characters or crypteks? I wonder if I can make a workable 500 point list with 1 hq, 2 10 man warrior squads and a couple destroyers. I'm not sure at those low pts levels if lychguard will be able to do much. The praetorians seem more mobile at least. It might be a little while before we all figure out what is going to work and what won't.
Edit: yeah I was looking at the start collecting box, it looks like an alright deal. Not a huge fan of the stalker though, for reasons not really rules-related.
Everytime I re-read the Doomsday Ark datasheet the more i like it. When it targets units with 10+ models its Doomsday gun goes from heavy d3 to heavy d6 (in long range). Still luck based on what you roll but because damage is also d6 (in long range) the DDA is going to have no problem sorting out horde armies like nids, orks, daemons, genestealers etc. Even if it moves and shoots in low power your still throwing 1-3 dice for its main gun and the Gauss flayers are RF 5 so if in half distance thats 10 shots guaranteed by the GF let alone d3 strengt 8 ap -2 d3 shots.
The Doomsday Ark is beast (imo) in 8th. Heres hoping it will get better in our codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yeah I was looking at the start collecting box, it looks like an alright deal. Not a huge fan of the stalker though, for reasons not really rules-related.
you could sell/trade the stalker to someone looking for one (trust me, you will see lots of TS due to it's Targeting Relay). Or go halfs with a friend on the box and have them pay for the Stalker.
Some conversation about Night Scythes, or discussing our Transport options in general;
I think if you're going with the Necron 'transports' then you have to embrace what makes them different rather than lament what they can't do that other transports can.
Yes they suck at transporting characters+units. Yes if you lose all your transports then you lose remaining units on the Tomb World.
What they have that's different however is they are like the Schrödinger's cat of transports - the unit is simultaneously inside and not inside the transport. And that;s something that gets interesting the more of them you have, it becomes a bit of a shell game. The other thing they can do is deploy multiple units out of a single model on consecutive turns.
Here's a sample list involving Night Scythes.
Battalion +3CP
Overlord with Hyperphase Sword (Deploy with Tesla Immortals)
Destroyer Lord with Hyperphase Sword, Res Orb. (Deploy with Destroyers/HDestroyers)
4 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
Flyer Wing +1CP
3 Night Scythes
2000 points on the dot 11 units.
The difference between a list like this one and a phalanx list is the increased mobility in exchange for less defense and RP buffing.
Warrior blocks with Ghost Arks backed up by Crypteks have big resilience with 4+ reroll RP and 5++ invul saves, but they have to clump and waddle along at 5" a turn in exchange for that.
The above list all the Destroyers move 10" and the OL/Tesla Immos move 6"+D6 a turn, and the flyers speed around doing the flyer things. At any point they could drop out some dangerous close range Gauss Immortals. You can do things like split the flyers up 1,1,1, run all three together, or a 1, 2 split, depending on what you need to accomplish with your Gauss Immortals, and if there is any benefit on mindgaming your opponent.
The Night Scythes/Destroyers also have the same sort of profile for enemy shooting (Lascannons/Missle bait), if your opponent sees the NS as a big threat, then your Destroyers go untouched - if he tries to focus out the Destroyers first, then you have free reign with your transports, etc. The Night Scythes are a very big 'distraction carnifex' for your Destroyers, especially if you emphasize the 'wipe them all out aspect'.
Odrankt wrote: Everytime I re-read the Doomsday Ark datasheet the more i like it. When it targets units with 10+ models its Doomsday gun goes from heavy d3 to heavy d6 (in long range). Still luck based on what you roll but because damage is also d6 (in long range) the DDA is going to have no problem sorting out horde armies like nids, orks, daemons, genestealers etc. Even if it moves and shoots in low power your still throwing 1-3 dice for its main gun and the Gauss flayers are RF 5 so if in half distance thats 10 shots guaranteed by the GF let alone d3 strengt 8 ap -2 d3 shots.
The Doomsday Ark is beast (imo) in 8th. Heres hoping it will get better in our codex.
The damage characteristic doesn't do anything against single wound models like nids, orks, genestealers? Damage only removes multiple wounds from models with multiple wounds, as in monsters and vehicles and sometimes heavier infantry like bikes and terminators. Getting to double your hits against blobs is a nice bonus that lets the ark be more flexible in what it can shoot at to make up for how inflexible it is at moving which is a big point in its favor vs heavy destroyers who can do very little against something like a genestealer swarm. I also really hope the low power shot gets errata'd to also become a d6 against 10+ model units because it's really not a half bad front line tank in a pinch with those flayer arrays even with the negative hit modifier, and the low power shot was always the same large blast template size as the full power shot and most of the other cannons that have translated into d6 hit profiles.
Battalion +3CP Overlord with Hyperphase Sword (Deploy with Tesla Immortals) Destroyer Lord with Hyperphase Sword, Res Orb. (Deploy with Destroyers/HDestroyers)
4 Destroyers 3 Heavy Destroyers 3 Heavy Destroyers
Flyer Wing +1CP 3 Night Scythes
2000 points
I like it. Though, personally, I'd try to find some way to fit some Scarabs in for screening the Destroyers/grabbing Objectives.
Need some confirmation, though: Flyers that leave the table in 8th do NOT come back on in later turns, right? (count as destroyed)
And mathhamer question: How do 10 unaccompanied Immortals and 5 naked Tomb Blades compare for damage and survivability? (yes, I realize the points would be closer if it were 4 TBs, but this is closer for wounds and shots)
Battalion +3CP
Overlord with Hyperphase Sword (Deploy with Tesla Immortals)
Destroyer Lord with Hyperphase Sword, Res Orb. (Deploy with Destroyers/HDestroyers)
4 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
Flyer Wing +1CP
3 Night Scythes
2000 points
I like it.
Though, personally, I'd try to find some way to fit some Scarabs in for screening the Destroyers/grabbing Objectives.
Need some confirmation, though:
Flyers that leave the table in 8th do NOT come back on in later turns, right? (count as destroyed)
And mathhamer question:
How do 10 unaccompanied Immortals and 5 naked Tomb Blades compare for damage and survivability?
(yes, I realize the points would be closer if it were 4 TBs, but this is closer for wounds and shots)
Tomb Blades are only 4+ unless you take an expensive upgrade. T5 helps. But they can't claim cover as easily, and you can stick the Immortals in Ruins after they come out for 2+. But the Blades can Fall Back and shoot if they survive,
Similar. Requires testing. I have trouble with Tomb Blades - they're freaking expensive as all get out, but they also pack a whallop and are fast. They're not too easy to kill, but also not too hard. Can't take buffs. They get less RP chances (less models, higher chance of getting wiped by D2+ weapons), but each passed RP is more powerful.
So I've had four games now and some time to digest, here are my thoughts:
1.) Destroyers are solid unit, good offense, good mobility, and tough. You pay for it though, they are pricier than they were in last edition. They will also be our best unit for dealing with primaris marines. Some call them las cannon bait, but I haven't seen a list in the army section that brought enough las cannons to do the job reliably. If even one survives you can be back up to fighting strength in a round or two.
2.) In the world of 7 toughness vehicles warriors are surprisingly solid. A 20 man blob of warriors is hard to get rid of, in fact it's only happened to me once in the four games I've played. Wounding on fives with a -1 rend can get a decent amount of work done. A 20 man blob dropped five wounds on magnus in a round.
3.) Everyone sucks at removing vehicles it's not just us. I saw a six taurox prime list that murdered everyone it fought because no one had enough dakka. Ultramarines, Khorne, orks, didn't matter. I was inline to fight it next (because I've never been one to back down from a challenge) when I got my match with the knights.
4.) Just because you will never bring enough dakka to easily handle vehicles doesn't mean you should give up on that component of list building. For the moment everyone is suffering with vehicles, your opponent will hate ours as much as we hate theirs. My goal in list building has been to bring enough anti-fattie gear to kill a LRBT a round, more than that and you risk not bringing enough anti-infantry less than that and you won't be able to handle a clutch removal.
5.) living metal is surprisingly meh, when I've had a vehicle or character die it's been the result of sudden concentrations of fire not as a result of ongoing damage. I was mad at first that only d-lords can take a phylactery now I don't even bother with it. Our opponents are not dumb, they know the best way to kill something is to overkill it. Living metal only works against incidental damage, and it doesn't really make our characters tougher. I've spent some time thinking on this, and the only way to make necron characters feel as tough as the rest of the army is to give them more wounds, and they are understandably reluctant to do that.
6.) RP is solid, I was concerned about how RP was going to play out, I'm not anymore. It can be bypassed, and I've had that done to me a fair number of times, but each time was the result of my mistake or a costly choice by my opponent. It's apples to oranges trying to compare its effectiveness between 7th ed to 8th ed, but what I can say with confidence is I like it much better in 8th. Once people actually get a few games in and see it in action I think anyone more reasonable than tradito will agree it's a cool mechanic but not overwhelming.
- Destroyers + HDs + D.Lord (the new D-Cult, anti-elite and anti-vehicle)
- 2 or more Night Scythes (mobile Tesla Destructors for hordes with guys that can pop out)
- Tomb Blades (at least one unit of 4-5 for Objective gabbing)
- Scarabs (one or more units of 3-6 for screening)
- Deathmarks (for handy surprise character murder)
- two to four units of 10 Immortals (but do they NEED to be 10 each?)
- Overlord (MWBD too useful not to have)
...
But for the life of me, I cannot figure out the best balance of them all in 2000 points.
This is the closest I've gotten:
Reeeally want to stick some Scarabs in but don't know how to change it.
(I mean, I could drop the Immortals entirely, switch to two Outrider detachments, add another 5 Tomb Blades, then throw in some Scarabs... but then I'll have one less Command Point and much less bodies on the table)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimgold wrote: the only way to make necron characters feel as tough as the rest of the army is to give them more wounds, and they are understandably reluctant to do that.
Wouldn't Lychguard effectively accomplish this? (pretty much adds another 10 or more wounds to any character they're near)
The gist is as they were talking about that horrible batrap with Necrons VS IG Armor a chat person kept on them when they mumbled about how you could use HDestroyers and T Starkers are ok.... Reece could not hold it in and pretty much said this.
"We can't talk about it yet till forgeworld releases their book but... lets just say Necrons will have plenty of options for good anti armor to choose from"
Woooo yes! We all felt like there was some pieces missing from this puzzle called balance and I guess Forgeworld is a large part of ours.
So all those sweet 7th edition destroyers go to the shelf to gather dust for a year while we play with the FW stuff to have a fighting chance? I'm not back to being happy again. :(
We can't have everything! Haha. We had heavy weapon problems, and now we will have the problem fixed. Otherwise our army is strong.
Don't buy chinacast if you enjoy the hobby, my sentry pylons are chinacast and it was the worst experience I've had with modelling.
My genuine FW nightshroud bomber is a dream to play with.
Grimgold wrote: the only way to make necron characters feel as tough as the rest of the army is to give them more wounds, and they are understandably reluctant to do that.
Wouldn't Lychguard effectively accomplish this? (pretty much adds another 10 or more wounds to any character they're near)
Kinnda, but bodyguards are something any army can do. Having that ability doesn't make necrons tougher than their equivalents in other armies which is what living metal is supposed to achieve but fails to do. Also my list points are tight enough that having 150 pts sitting by my HQ to suck wounds is just not practical.
Only Played one game with the following list against nids,
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment
Anrakyr the Traveller 167
18 Flayed ones 378
9 Lychguard with warscythes 270
The deciever 225
Spear Head Detachment
Destroyer Lord with hyperphase sword 127
Monolith 381
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225
I won but it was hard to say if the list performed because I had some hot dice. Basically I designed the list to be low unit count to fish for the first turn. We played no mercy, the way we read it as soon as I finished deploying my last unit i chose to go first and he rolls to seize at that point even before he finished deploying which he failed on then finished deploying accordingly. I mention this for 2 reasons. First because he deployed his fodder units early however if he realized how it works he would have deployed his key units first then when failing to seize he could have deployed fodder as screens. Second is it means the roll to seize happens before grand deception which meant I could use it aggressively without fear of it flipping on me.
Basically I used grand deception to send the monolith deceiver and Anrakyr downfield. Infiltrated the flayed ones and used the monolith to pull the Lychguard through first turn down field. I stretched the flayed ones across a wide front allowing them to benefit from Anrakyrs buffs. Using multi charges and some hot shooting rolls I managed to ace all but one synapse creature while taking enough smaller bugs to force some morale checks. He brought some units from reserve but they weren't enough to change the flow of the battle.
Edit: I also used heroic intervention with the deceiver and Anrakyr stratagem to help save the monolith.The interrupt stratagem is gold on flayed ones.
I think you'll find that most succesful list have the deceiver in them, and that will, in due time, be dealt with by GW. In the meantime it basically allows us to win at deployment, which gives us some huge advantages over the first few turns of the game.
Also your opponent trying to seize while still deploying is a no no rules wise, and kind of a douche move.
Grimgold wrote: I think you'll find that most succesful list have the deceiver in them, and that will, in due time, be dealt with by GW. In the meantime it basically allows us to win at deployment, which gives us some huge advantages over the first few turns of the game.
Also your opponent trying to seize while still deploying is a no no rules wise, and kind of a douche move.
I agree he is a bit of a boss.
As for initiative the missions profile says when a player deploys their last unit they choose to go first or not, it then says when that's decided the player going second can choose to roll so seize. It doesn't really say they have to finish deploying in fact I'd argue they actually have to roll before they finish deploying. TBH I actually kind of like it that way, it helps out horde armies that are at a disadvantage with list structure who aren't likely to go first.
Nebulas1 wrote: Only Played one game with the following list against nids,
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment
Anrakyr the Traveller 167
18 Flayed ones 378
9 Lychguard with warscythes 270
The deciever 225
Spear Head Detachment
Destroyer Lord with hyperphase sword 127
Monolith 381
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225
I won but it was hard to say if the list performed because I had some hot dice. Basically I designed the list to be low unit count to fish for the first turn. We played no mercy, the way we read it as soon as I finished deploying my last unit i chose to go first and he rolls to seize at that point even before he finished deploying which he failed on then finished deploying accordingly. I mention this for 2 reasons. First because he deployed his fodder units early however if he realized how it works he would have deployed his key units first then when failing to seize he could have deployed fodder as screens. Second is it means the roll to seize happens before grand deception which meant I could use it aggressively without fear of it flipping on me.
Basically I used grand deception to send the monolith deceiver and Anrakyr downfield. Infiltrated the flayed ones and used the monolith to pull the Lychguard through first turn down field. I stretched the flayed ones across a wide front allowing them to benefit from Anrakyrs buffs. Using multi charges and some hot shooting rolls I managed to ace all but one synapse creature while taking enough smaller bugs to force some morale checks. He brought some units from reserve but they weren't enough to change the flow of the battle.
Hmm.
So Monolith gets set up 12" from enemy. Lychguard come out of the Monolith 3". They move up 5", so they've only got a 4" charge. Nice.
But the Flayed Ones show up 9" away. It happens at the end of the movement phase so they can't move up any further until charge time. The only Anrakyr buff they could have gotten would be his +1 to attack, as MWBD only happens at the beginning of your turn (at which point they weren't even on the table), so they couldn't use that to get an extra inch when charging, so they pretty much have to make an 8" charge. Not impossible, but kind of risky. How did it work out for them in your game? Did you go for the charge after lining them up or just use them for screening?
Nebulas1 wrote: The interrupt stratagem is gold on flayed ones.
I'm not sure we should ever take gauss blasters over tesla carbines?
Like if you average hits between gauss single shot at range and rapid fire at 12", and even that is probably generous since you normally only get 1 turn of rapid firing before something is either wiped out or you get into assault, then gauss is only better against things with a 2+ save. It's even against 3+ saves and increasingly worse above that, and also much worse if both get buffs thanks to how modifiers and re-rolls effect the tesla special rule.
And that's before you get to the greater utility of tesla with overwatch and helping our mobility problem by advancing and shooting when 5" won't cut it.
Actinium wrote: I'm not sure we should ever take gauss blasters over tesla carbines?
Like if you average hits between gauss single shot at range and rapid fire at 12", and even that is probably generous since you normally only get 1 turn of rapid firing before something is either wiped out or you get into assault, then gauss is only better against things with a 2+ save. It's even against 3+ saves and increasingly worse above that, and also much worse if both get buffs thanks to how modifiers and re-rolls effect the tesla special rule.
And that's before you get to the greater utility of tesla with overwatch and helping our mobility problem by advancing and shooting when 5" won't cut it.
Eh, I don't know about that. 10 Gauss Immortals dropping out of a NightScythe can wipe out a full Tactical Squad in cover in one turn. You can kite them with 10 Tesla Immortals at 24" but you're only plinking 2 out a turn with their 2+ cover saves. I can see a reason to take Gauss in some lists.
Nebulas1 wrote: Only Played one game with the following list against nids,
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment
Anrakyr the Traveller 167
18 Flayed ones 378
9 Lychguard with warscythes 270
The deciever 225
Spear Head Detachment
Destroyer Lord with hyperphase sword 127
Monolith 381
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225
I won but it was hard to say if the list performed because I had some hot dice. Basically I designed the list to be low unit count to fish for the first turn. We played no mercy, the way we read it as soon as I finished deploying my last unit i chose to go first and he rolls to seize at that point even before he finished deploying which he failed on then finished deploying accordingly. I mention this for 2 reasons. First because he deployed his fodder units early however if he realized how it works he would have deployed his key units first then when failing to seize he could have deployed fodder as screens. Second is it means the roll to seize happens before grand deception which meant I could use it aggressively without fear of it flipping on me.
Basically I used grand deception to send the monolith deceiver and Anrakyr downfield. Infiltrated the flayed ones and used the monolith to pull the Lychguard through first turn down field. I stretched the flayed ones across a wide front allowing them to benefit from Anrakyrs buffs. Using multi charges and some hot shooting rolls I managed to ace all but one synapse creature while taking enough smaller bugs to force some morale checks. He brought some units from reserve but they weren't enough to change the flow of the battle.
Hmm.
So Monolith gets set up 12" from enemy. Lychguard come out of the Monolith 3". They move up 5", so they've only got a 4" charge. Nice.
But the Flayed Ones show up 9" away. It happens at the end of the movement phase so they can't move up any further until charge time. The only Anrakyr buff they could have gotten would be his +1 to attack, as MWBD only happens at the beginning of your turn (at which point they weren't even on the table), so they couldn't use that to get an extra inch when charging, so they pretty much have to make an 8" charge. Not impossible, but kind of risky. How did it work out for them in your game? Did you go for the charge after lining them up or just use them for screening?
Nebulas1 wrote: The interrupt stratagem is gold on flayed ones.
Can we get some further explanation?
The flayed ones failed the charge the first time with like a four and a one but used reroll on the one. It was only the +1 Attack but that's awesome on flayed ones. I charged 2 units but because they were spread out I was able to rope in 2 of his shooty units with consolidation.
The lychguard actually had to make a 7 charge because other units stopped me setting up the monolith as close as possible to the monsters I wanted to assault buy yes generally speaking it makes it easy to get those guys up close and personal.
My opponent charged my flayed ones with three units in his turn and managed to charge my destroyers with his raveners. He made the mistake of activating the raveners first so I used the counterattack stratagem to activate my flayed ones, and was able to blunt the edge on the charging units. It's hard to say if this is reliable though as first turn the flayed one went bananas and only lost 2 in return. I think with more experience in 8th edition my opponent wouldn't let half this stuff happen.
When I was writing my list I kept getting hung up on trying to make the most of RP . I decided to give up on that because it never felt right. In the end I decided to focus on building a list that would be able to chase key units on my terms. If I get a chance to play a vehicle heavy list I'll tell you how it goes.
Really good points earlier on Triarch Praetorians, skoffs.
The one thing that they still have that temps me about them is they are still effectively fearless. With the way moral now works that's a really solid way to keep RP kicking. I haven't tried them yet, as I'm having a lot of fun running the NB as my assault unit, but I'm really tempted to soon. One
other thing that can buff them is Triarch Stalkers, right?
That's a good catch on the lack of <Dynasty>, though. Hadn't noticed that till you mentioned it.
I also use to love VB/PC but it seems RoC is totally the way to go now. The extra pistol shot is okay in CC, but the Rods shooting profile seems so much better. Plus Assault will allow you to advance and still lay down some firepower if you need that little bit of extra range.
What are people's experience so far with Flayed Ones. I want to try them but that price tag seems steep this edition?
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Eh, I don't know about that. 10 Gauss Immortals dropping out of a NightScythe can wipe out a full Tactical Squad in cover in one turn. You can kite them with 10 Tesla Immortals at 24" but you're only plinking 2 out a turn with their 2+ cover saves. I can see a reason to take Gauss in some lists.
Isn't it 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 8.88wounds, 4.44 failed saves so about 4 or 5 dead in that scenario rather than a full 10? Also i said 2+ saves is specifically what gauss is better at and with the new terrain rules making you fit all models of a unit inside cover to get the armor bonus i don't think it will be totally ubiquitous. Meanwhile tesla is flat even with averaged gauss against 3+ saves, better against 4+ and much better at 5+ and 6+. With targeting relay and MWBD gauss is still better against 2+ saves but now tesla is better even against 3+ saves as well as all the higher saves.
I know it's bit of an old strat but just in new form, but dropping Zahndrekh out of a NS, then Ghost Walking in Obyron + some LG, and charging with both the benfit of MWBD and a decent chance of getting some love from either Avenge the Fallen or Solarmills! Charge seems incredible easy to pull off in this edition and potentially incredibly potent.
Say you stick 3 NS right in your opponents front door step turn 1. You'll have a pretty huge bubble of influence (3"+Zandy's base+6"+2d6+1+1" charge) to get a bunch of WS's on your enemies faces. Even if they scurry to get away from them you are likely to be able to catch up.
Also, the great thing is, you don't have to choose which NS to deploy from until the time is right, right? (Of course, your opponent might dictate that for you by killing the others lol.)
I think the best way to balance that is with some other rather juicy targets. Like maybe a whole bunch of 1xHDs or something.
The main thing keeping me from trying Flayed Ones is the difficulty in trying to get them to charge the same turn the appear on the board.
Like I said above, an 8" charge is quite a risk, especially with no way to increase it through buffs.
Praetorians... how do we even use them?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadar_Logoth wrote: I know it's bit of an old strat but just in new form, but dropping Zahndrekh out of a NS, then Ghost Walking in Obyron + some LG, and charging with both the benfit of MWBD and a decent chance of getting some love from either Avenge the Fallen or Solarmills! Charge seems incredible easy to pull off in this edition and potentially incredibly potent.
Say you stick 3 NS right in your opponents front door step turn 1. You'll have a pretty huge bubble of influence (3"+Zandy's base+6"+2d6+1+1" charge) to get a bunch of WS's on your enemies faces. Even if they scurry to get away from them you are likely to be able to catch up.
Also, the great thing is, you don't have to choose which NS to deploy from until the time is right, right? (Of course, your opponent might dictate that for you by killing the others lol.)
I think the best way to balance that is with some other rather juicy targets. Like maybe a whole bunch of 1xHDs or something.
Multiple units of 2 HDs at least, surely.
But for this strat, would you be keeping them standing there for a full turn after dropping them off?
Because I can see no other way you'd be able to give them any buffs from Zahndrekh (all his buffs happen at the beginning of your turn, where he still wouldn't even be on the table if arriving from NS).
You can still potentially give the Lychguard MWBD beforehand if there's another Overlord level character near them on the other side of the table before they Ghostwalk... but that'll be a third HQ.
Shadar_Logoth wrote: Oh yeah, good catch. So you wouldn't be able to start slinging them buffs from Zandy till turn 3.
Could still work, but not quite as potent as I was originally envisioning.
You could use deceiver to deploy nemesor down the field and turn one teleport them where they need to be.
Could use deceiver to deploy a nightscythe or two downfield then dump out Nemesor and some lychguard then use ghost walk to move obyron and another unit up. As far as I can tell this method would give you two units and two characters that could assault but you wouldn't get MWBD.
Shadar_Logoth wrote: Oh yeah, good catch. So you wouldn't be able to start slinging them buffs from Zandy till turn 3.
Could still work, but not quite as potent as I was originally envisioning.
Still think the Deceiver Bomb would be a better delivery option (first turn charge can still really good, even if it doesn't have MWBD. Grand Illusion Anrakyr up with them and at least they'll get +1 attack)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nebulas1 wrote: You could use deceiver to deploy nemesor down the field and turn one teleport them where they need to be.
Could use deceiver to deploy a nightscythe or two downfield then dump out Nemesor and some lychguard then use ghost walk to move obyron and another unit up. As far as I can tell this method would give you two units and two characters that could assault but you wouldn't get MWBD.
If you look back a bunch of pages you'll see all the various methods to use the Deceiver. Craziest one involves the Deceiver, a Monolith, Zahndrekh, Obyron, and a bunch of Warscythe Lychguard. Other options include replacing the Monolith with a Ghost Ark, or omitting Zahndrekh and Obyron and just having the Lychguard come out of the Monolith. Night Scythes could work, too, but not sure how it would work out with cost effectiveness versus damage output and survivability.
Still reeeally want to use Flayed Ones in this alpha strike attack plan, but not sure to to get them to work right with that unmitigatable 8" charge they would need.
Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.
Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.
Would you be comortable getting to go first with 9 units?
Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.
Would you be comortable getting to go first with 9 units?
Looking at the army lists forums mostly yes though it is hard to gauge with how transports and deployment works. If you didn't go first it would be a serious uphill battle. It'll be one of those wait and see what the meta does I think. A lot of lists seem to build towards command points which seems to result in more units. Will the meta shift between fishing for first turn or conceding first turn to get more CP?
Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.
Still doesn't get the Flayed Ones closer. If there were a way to reliably get them into combat after they hit the table it would change everything. Until that way is figured out, not sure how well they'd work in this case, apart from psychological effect of having a bunch of CC guys real close to you that will probably require you attention (thus distracting attention away from the Lychguard).
Realistically, with all of the options, it looks like you can only get two CC units into that Alpha strike on average* (using a CP to reroll if 1). The only difference is the kind of support you want to go with them... and honestly, if you're using two Night Scythes, you might not even need N.Z and V.O (just have the Lychguard step out and walk up). Those HQ are not contributing much to that initial charge/attack as far as buffs go, so you could probably save a lot of points there by omitting them.
*If you manage a 3 for Grand Illusion, bring a shooty unit.
Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.
Still doesn't get the Flayed Ones closer. If there were a way to reliably get them into combat after they hit the table it would change everything. Until that way is figured out, not sure how well they'd work in this case, apart from psychological effect of having a bunch of CC guys real close to you that will probably require you attention (thus distracting attention away from the Lychguard).
Realistically, with all of the options, it looks like you can only get two CC units into that Alpha strike on average* (using a CP to reroll if 1). The only difference is the kind of support you want to go with them... and honestly, if you're using two Night Scythes, you might not even need N.Z and V.O (just have the Lychguard step out and walk up). Those HQ are not contributing much to that initial charge/attack as far as buffs go, so you could probably save a lot of points there by omitting them.
*If you manage a 3 for Grand Illusion, bring a shooty unit.
No doubt there is more efficient but nemesor and obyron can go after seperate charges themselves it depends or not if you want to commit to a full on assault army. I don't think any unit is proof from failing charges. If your willing to spend a CP though it does increase your chances significantly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heck you could use anrakyr and death marks, drop them in fire off a bunch of shots then attempt to assault with Anrakyr giving them 2 attacks each. Probably not the same output as flayed ones but more reliable.
Nebulas1 wrote: Heck you could use anrakyr and death marks, drop them in fire off a bunch of shots then attempt to assault with Anrakyr giving them 2 attacks each. Probably not the same output as flayed ones but more reliable.
Umm, Deathmarks must be at least 9" away from enemies when they hit the table. That's the same as Flayed Ones, so they're just as likely to fail their charge.
And for reference, as far as "[not] any unit is proof from failing charges", the most extreme version of the Deceiver Bomb puts any one unit within 1" of a chosen enemy.
Check this out-
Spoiler:
Zhandrekh in a Ghost Ark. Obyron next to Lychguard somewhere on the table. Deceiver anywhere.
Use Deceiver to stick Ghost Ark 12" away from enemy, with it's side facing the target.
Turn 1, movement phase, pivot the Ghost Ark so the front is now pointing at target. This will have gained you an inch or two. Disembark Zahndrekh 3", so that's about 5" closer, now. Walk him up, so that's 10". End of movement phase Obyron and Lychguard Ghostwalk within 6" of Zahndrekh... which gives you like 16" of total distance from where you first set up with the Deceiver... who was only 12" away from the enemy... you've still gotta be 1" away from enemy, but it's now impossible to fail the charge.
Actually, this would depend on whether pivoting a vehicle counts as moving it. If it does, then Zahndrekh just gets out without the extra 2" the pivot would have gotten you... which still gives you 14" of distance when you only needed 11".
Something else entirely - you can use the Ghost Ark's repair barge ability on one and the same warrior unit more than once on a single unit a turn, right? If you bring two or more arks I mean.
Nebulas1 wrote: Heck you could use anrakyr and death marks, drop them in fire off a bunch of shots then attempt to assault with Anrakyr giving them 2 attacks each. Probably not the same output as flayed ones but more reliable.
Umm, Deathmarks must be at least 9" away from enemies when they hit the table. That's the same as Flayed Ones, so they're just as likely to fail their charge.
And for reference, as far as "[not] any unit is proof from failing charges", the most extreme version of the Deceiver Bomb puts any one unit within 1" of a chosen enemy.
Check this out-
Spoiler:
Zhandrekh in a Ghost Ark. Obyron next to Lychguard somewhere on the table. Deceiver anywhere.
Use Deceiver to stick Ghost Ark 12" away from enemy, with it's side facing the target.
Turn 1, movement phase, pivot the Ghost Ark so the front is now pointing at target. This will have gained you an inch or two. Disembark Zahndrekh 3", so that's about 5" closer, now. Walk him up, so that's 10". End of movement phase Obyron and Lychguard Ghostwalk within 6" of Zahndrekh... which gives you like 16" of total distance from where you first set up with the Deceiver... who was only 12" away from the enemy... you've still gotta be 1" away from enemy, but it's now impossible to fail the charge.
Actually, this would depend on whether pivoting a vehicle counts as moving it. If it does, then Zahndrekh just gets out without the extra 2" the pivot would have gotten you... which still gives you 14" of distance when you only needed 11".
If you bring in Orikan too for 5++ in CC then you could perhaps go warscythes on the lychguard, it'd be nice to see how long that wreckingball rolls before it stops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course with the ghost ark, 10 lychguard, 3 HQs and the deceiver, most of your army is now committed, so the prospect of it stopping is a gloomy one
skoffs wrote: The main thing keeping me from trying Flayed Ones is the difficulty in trying to get them to charge the same turn the appear on the board.
Like I said above, an 8" charge is quite a risk, especially with no way to increase it through buffs.
5.) living metal is surprisingly meh, when I've had a vehicle or character die it's been the result of sudden concentrations of fire not as a result of ongoing damage. I was mad at first that only d-lords can take a phylactery now I don't even bother with it. Our opponents are not dumb, they know the best way to kill something is to overkill it. Living metal only works against incidental damage, and it doesn't really make our characters tougher. I've spent some time thinking on this, and the only way to make necron characters feel as tough as the rest of the army is to give them more wounds, and they are understandably reluctant to do that.
You know, I mentioned this point when the Necron stuff was first leaked and all I got was a lot of people telling me I was stupid and that Necron characters were more durable than they'd ever been in the history of 40k.
Anyway, instead of giving them more wounds, what if they allowed them to benefit from a special version of RP? Maybe they can only revive if there's a unit of Necrons within 3" of where they died? Or they can always revive, but only on a 6?
As it is, it's really weird that our basic infantry can revive any number of times but our HQ's revival circuits are all completely broken.
Wishlisting aside, if you're not taking a Phylactery on the Destroyer Lord, do you think it's worth getting a Resurrection Orb instead? Also, given their relative fragility, what weapons would you suggest on our HQs?
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Eh, I don't know about that. 10 Gauss Immortals dropping out of a NightScythe can wipe out a full Tactical Squad in cover in one turn. You can kite them with 10 Tesla Immortals at 24" but you're only plinking 2 out a turn with their 2+ cover saves. I can see a reason to take Gauss in some lists.
Isn't it 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 8.88wounds, 4.44 failed saves so about 4 or 5 dead in that scenario rather than a full 10? Also i said 2+ saves is specifically what gauss is better at and with the new terrain rules making you fit all models of a unit inside cover to get the armor bonus i don't think it will be totally ubiquitous. Meanwhile tesla is flat even with averaged gauss against 3+ saves, better against 4+ and much better at 5+ and 6+. With targeting relay and MWBD gauss is still better against 2+ saves but now tesla is better even against 3+ saves as well as all the higher saves.
I think if you get 5 down off the rapid fire you can charge for an extra 1, and/or find Tesla off a Nightscythe for 1, so either way you get 6+ casualties in the turn forcing a pretty tough Morale test even for SM with their reroll.
Instead of Nightscythe+10 Gauss Immortals you might have 20 Tesla Immortals for the same points, and it takes them 3 turns to blast them out.
It's different tools, Tesla Immortals are going to be great for clearing screens and swarms and the like, but I can see the point to fast deploy Gauss Immortals for 'take and hold' scenarios.
skoffs wrote: The main thing keeping me from trying Flayed Ones is the difficulty in trying to get them to charge the same turn the appear on the board.
Like I said above, an 8" charge is quite a risk, especially with no way to increase it through buffs.
It's actually 9".
You place them 9" away, but they only need to charge 8" (end within 1" of enemy)
So
skoffs wrote: The main thing keeping me from trying Flayed Ones is the difficulty in trying to get them to charge the same turn the appear on the board.
Like I said above, an 8" charge is quite a risk, especially with no way to increase it through buffs.
It's actually 9".
You place them 9" away, but they only need to charge 8" (end within 1" of enemy)
So
Except that you have to place them "more than 9" away" (emphasis mine).
If they are exactly 9" away, then they have been placed illegally.
The damage characteristic doesn't do anything against single wound models like nids, orks, genestealers? Damage only removes multiple wounds from models with multiple wounds, as in monsters and vehicles and sometimes heavier infantry like bikes and terminators
Good point. Over looked that a small bit.
Getting to double your hits against blobs is a nice bonus that lets the ark be more flexible in what it can shoot at to make up for how inflexible it is at moving which is a big point in its favor vs heavy destroyers who can do very little against something like a genestealer swarm. I also really hope the low power shot gets errata'd to also become a d6 against 10+ model units because it's really not a half bad front line tank in a pinch with those flayer arrays even with the negative hit modifier, and the low power shot was always the same large blast template size as the full power shot and most of the other cannons that have translated into d6 hit profiles.
When I 1st read the description I honestly thought it affected both till I re-read it yesterday. It would be a really good buff as the DDA will be a good "horde" control unit in both long and medium/short range.
I think i am going to place my DDA last on the table when I set up games so I can position the DDA in the safest and most destructive way possible.
A moving DDA is really good imo. its damage output suffers a small bit but its still reliable with its 2 Gauss Flayer Arrays.
I am also starting to like the Anni Barge. If equipped with both "Two Tesla Destructors" and "Tesla Cannon" it puts out a lot of shots that will also be good against horde armies. I would take the Gauss Cannon but it costs a bit more then the tesla so im stuck between which to use. The Gauss cannon is good with ap - 3 and its d3 wounds. But, its also Heavy 2 so if you move you will have to hit with -1 modifier.
I think Tesla Cannon is the better option with it being Assault and having the chance to do 3 hits on a every 6+.
skoffs wrote: The main thing keeping me from trying Flayed Ones is the difficulty in trying to get them to charge the same turn the appear on the board. Like I said above, an 8" charge is quite a risk, especially with no way to increase it through buffs.
It's actually 9".
You place them 9" away, but they only need to charge 8" (end within 1" of enemy) So
Except that you have to place them "more than 9" away" (emphasis mine). If they are exactly 9" away, then they have been placed illegally.
Egad!
(regardless, it's still too far to reliably risk trying to charge the turn they come in. You can try, but that's a pretty big gamble for what could possibly be quite an expensive unit)
You could do both:
A unit of 10 Deathmarks at 10-11" away, with a unit of 10+ Flayed Ones at 9.01" to act as a very intimidating screen.
Rapid fire into whatever and then maybe attempt to charge... if you're feeling daring.
If the flayed ones fail the charge, and next turn get shot at, then charged themselves, the deathmarks suffer a big risk of being sucked into that cc through pile ins etc.
But for a flanking operation, against weak spots in the enemy defense line, this could perhaps be a nice card to keep up the sleeve till when the game opens up after a few turns.
Quick list I drafted after reading all the suggestions here:
Spoiler:
2000 points Supreme Command Detachment - Nemesor Zandrekh [in Ghost Ark]
- Vargard Obyron
- Destroyer Lord [Hyperphase Swords]
- C'Tan Shard of the Deceiver
Spearhead Detachment - Anrakyr the Traveller
- 10 Lychguard [Warscythe]
- 3 Heavy Destroyers
- 3 Heavy Destroyers
- 3 Heavy Destroyers
Total: 1995 pts, 5 CP
Classic Deceiver bomb: the Ark gets moved by the Deceiver, Anrakyr too with a 2 on the D3.
If Anrakyr remains where he is deployed, he uses MWBD on the Lychguard
Start of the turn, Zandrekh disembarks and gets 3" closer (9,01" now). Everyone (C'Tan, Ark, Zandrekh and, if present, Anrakyr) moves closer (4,01" now).
Obyron teleports him and the Lychguard to Zandrekh, within 6" of him (1,01").
Everyone shoots, the C'Tan uses its power, Anrakyr uses his Tachyon Arrow regardless of his position and if he is close he uses Mind in the Machine.
Lychguards charge, characters charge or perform an Heroic Intervention. The Lychguards either have 30 Attacks (if Anrakyr is there) or WS 2+ (if he is not and he used MWBD), with S7 Ap-4 D2 there are few units who would survive this alpha strike.
I could drop a pair of Heavy Destroyers for some Scarabs or Wraiths as a screen for enemy deepstriking units.
If you're crazy you could go for an all out, "every single thing you have hits their side of the table" first turn Alpha strike.
It would involve some (but not all, that's way too expensive):
- Deceiver
- Night Scythes/Monolith(s)
- Lychguard
- Deathmarks
- Flayed Ones
- Doomsday Arks (not physically ON that side of the table, but their guns could reach it)
- Heavy Destroyers/HGC Stalkers (maybe. They're fast enough, and their guns might just be able to reach, so 46" threat range)
Pretty much devote everything in hopes of causing enough damage in that one turn that your opponent won't be able to recover... high risk, but high reward.
All In - v.1:
With that second one only having 8 units, you're pretty much guaranteed to have to first turn initiative (... unless they seize, like Reecius did to Frankie, in which case it'll be an utter disaster)
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Phylactery
Cryptek
15 Warriors
15 Warriors
10 Immortals
3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer
3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer
That comes to 1332pts
The D. Lord goes with the Destroyers, the Cryptek goes with the Warriors and Immortals.
My question is, how do you think I should finish this list off?
I could add any one of the following:
- Anrakyr the Traveller
- A regular Overlord (maybe with a few scarabs to fill in the points)
- A Triarch Stalker
- 4 Wraiths
Basically, I'm not sure whether to add another buff to the central Warrior/Immortal block (and if so, which one) or whether to take something like Wraiths to give me an independent unit.
Also, would you recommend Gauss or Tesla on the Immortals?
vipoid wrote: Chaps, I've got this in mind for a 1500pt list:
Spoiler:
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Phylactery Cryptek 15 Warriors 15 Warriors 10 Immortals 3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer 3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer
That comes to 1332pts
The D. Lord goes with the Destroyers, the Cryptek goes with the Warriors and Immortals.
My question is, how do you think I should finish this list off?
I could add any one of the following: - Anrakyr the Traveller - A regular Overlord (maybe with a few scarabs to fill in the points) - A Triarch Stalker - 4 Wraiths
Basically, I'm not sure whether to add another buff to the central Warrior/Immortal block (and if so, which one) or whether to take something like Wraiths to give me an independent unit.
Also, would you recommend Gauss or Tesla on the Immortals?
Advice would be most welcome.
Looks decent. - No dedicated CC guys so Anrakyr not really as great without them. - You've got a lot of points in Destroyers so Stalker's buff isn't as effective. - Wraiths miiiiight be okay. - If I was playing this, I'd definitely go for a regular Overlord with Scarabs. MWBD is borderline required, as are screening units.
Tesla Immortals probably better here. Oh, and a Res Orb somewhere (probably with the D.Lord, as he's going to be babysitting some very expensive guys. Just one of them coming back with it will have paid for itself twice over). Alternatively, you could give the D.Lord a Sword and get your Immortals a Night Scythe... not as good an idea as the Overlord + Scarabs, but it's an option.
Looks decent.
- No dedicated CC guys so Anrakyr not really as great without them.
- You've got a lot of points in Destroyers so Stalker's buff isn't as effective.
- Wraiths miiiiight be okay.
- If I was playing this, I'd definitely go for a regular Overlord with Scarabs. MWBD is borderline required, as are screening units.
Tesla Immortals probably better here.
Oh, and a Res Orb somewhere (probably with the D.Lord, as he's going to be babysitting some very expensive guys. Just one of them coming back with it will have paid for itself twice over).
Thanks for the advice. I'll do what you suggest and get a regular Overlord with scarabs. Also, that's a good point regarding the cost of a Resurrection Orb vs the cost of a Destroyer. Bit of a shame though - I wanted to give Phylactery a try (though, admittedly, the model does have the Orb).
With regard to Anrakyr, I thought he might be useful defensively - if my Warriors or Immortals got charged. I take it this isn't a good idea?
skoffs wrote: Looks decent.
- No dedicated CC guys so Anrakyr not really as great without them.
- You've got a lot of points in Destroyers so Stalker's buff isn't as effective.
- Wraiths miiiiight be okay.
- If I was playing this, I'd definitely go for a regular Overlord with Scarabs. MWBD is borderline required, as are screening units.
Tesla Immortals probably better here.
Oh, and a Res Orb somewhere (probably with the D.Lord, as he's going to be babysitting some very expensive guys. Just one of them coming back with it will have paid for itself twice over).
Thanks for the advice. I'll do what you suggest and get a regular Overlord with scarabs. Also, that's a good point regarding the cost of a Resurrection Orb vs the cost of a Destroyer. Bit of a shame though - I wanted to give Phylactery a try (though, admittedly, the model does have the Orb).
With regard to Anrakyr, I thought he might be useful defensively - if my Warriors or Immortals got charged. I take it this isn't a good idea?
It's not a BAD idea, it's just not as good as sticking him with dedicated CC units, where that extra attack he gives out will really shine.
Quickly throwing together a list based on yours, yeah, it looks like it will make a decent lower points level TAC army.
Remember, one of the nice things about the Deceiver is that you just redeploy him plus 1d3. They don't have to go together, and they don't have to go exactly 12" away. You can use it to just redeploy Gauss Immortals in ruins in the middle of the map, or shift a unit out of Line of Sight from something that counterdeployed.
If he doesn't use the redeploy himself, he can also charge, so you can also leave him in your DZ with some Wraiths and Scarabs to follow up the redeploy with melee.
As for general deployment shenanigans, the Night Scythe can be a tricky low-drop tool. Think about this: put 2 Night Scythes on the table, 4 Immortal units on the Tomb World. On T1, before moving, just plop 2 units of Tesla Immortals in Ruins on your side of the map. You just saved 2 Deployment drops and got the same result as deploying them.
Since Heavy Destroyers are also Infantry and generally just set up in the backfield, you can put them up in the Tomb World and then drop them out of whichever Scythe is best on T1.
skoffs wrote: Looks decent.
- No dedicated CC guys so Anrakyr not really as great without them.
- You've got a lot of points in Destroyers so Stalker's buff isn't as effective.
- Wraiths miiiiight be okay.
- If I was playing this, I'd definitely go for a regular Overlord with Scarabs. MWBD is borderline required, as are screening units.
Tesla Immortals probably better here.
Oh, and a Res Orb somewhere (probably with the D.Lord, as he's going to be babysitting some very expensive guys. Just one of them coming back with it will have paid for itself twice over).
Thanks for the advice. I'll do what you suggest and get a regular Overlord with scarabs. Also, that's a good point regarding the cost of a Resurrection Orb vs the cost of a Destroyer. Bit of a shame though - I wanted to give Phylactery a try (though, admittedly, the model does have the Orb).
With regard to Anrakyr, I thought he might be useful defensively - if my Warriors or Immortals got charged. I take it this isn't a good idea?
It's not a BAD idea, it's just not as good as sticking him with dedicated CC units, where that extra attack he gives out will really shine.
Quickly throwing together a list based on yours, yeah, it looks like it will make a decent lower points level TAC army.
torblind wrote: Don't reserves count towards the unit deployment drop?
Not when you put them in the Scythe. You can deploy as many units on the Tomb World as you want at the same time that you put down the flyer (or Monolith for that matter)
You could probably swap the Overlord's staff out for a Warscythe here, if you wanted.
What would you recommend for a 1000 point list in this style?
Depends, what do you want it to do?
Normally TAC lists want to fulfill certain requirements:
- fast objective capturers
- durable units
- anti-horde
- anti-elite
- anti-vehilce/monster
- anti-characters (previously anti-deathstars)
With only a thousand points, it's going to be almost impossible to check everything off the list.
So really, at that point level you probably have to pick two or three things and commit to them.
You'd be able to make a smaller version of the above, but it wouldn't really excel at anything, just be average-
You could replace the Tomb Blades with a Night Scythe if you drop another Warrior as well. You'll be able to upgrade the Overlord with a Warscythe then, too.
Issue then will be less shots, but more powerful.
After my game against a good Yannari player today (victory!) I think I'm just going to double down on what works. Crypteks, warriors blobs (15 seems to be the magic number), doomsday arks, annihilation barges. Overlord and MYBD is great but I just don't think it's great enough over all a cryptek offers. The adds are to support those units which are triarch stalkers and I'm thinking praetorians for counter charge. List I'm thinking of now.
Spoiler:
HQ: 351
Orkian (143)
Cryptek (104)
Cryptek (104)
Elites: 607
Triarch Stalker (181): Dual heavy Gauss
Triarch Stalker (181): Dual heavy Gauss
7 Praetorians (245): Rods
Instead of building lists that try to maximize the chances of first turn assaults and alpha strikes, has anyone attenpts to build a two phase hammer and anvil strategy?
Peering into other tactics threads and it seems alpha is the desired go to. I was thinking of maybe working on a list that bets to recieve alpha strike attempts on my anvil and then deepstrikes the hammer in behind the alpha strike. Catching it on a two front attack.
I don't know enough about the future 8th meta to understand if that could ever work though.
A unit of Deathmarks could deepstrike after a droppod arrived on the battlefield but, according to the rules, they could only shoot on the droppod itself, not the unit that disembarked from the vehicle.
Do I understand the rules correctly? Is this merely an oversight (and could be clarified in an upcoming FaQ) or intended?
A unit of Deathmarks could deepstrike after a droppod arrived on the battlefield but, according to the rules, they could only shoot on the droppod itself, not the unit that disembarked from the vehicle.
Do I understand the rules correctly? Is this merely an oversight (and could be clarified in an upcoming FaQ) or intended?
If you use their ethereal interception entrance instead of their normal hunters from hyperspace deep strike then ya you need to shoot the transport that deep striked. Deep struck? That did the thing. I'm not sure its even an oversight as the rule specifically leaves out disembarking units while leaving in something like the monolith's portal or nightscythe's beam deploying a unit in from reserves without technically disembarking them from itself.
Shadar_Logoth wrote:One thing I haven't seen discussed much is the new Particle Shredder has a pretty solid profile.
24" Heavy 6 S7 AP -1 D3
That's really not bad at all. Also a good 23 points cheaper then the twin HGCs.
I also really like the shredder. Very few large blast weapons got translated into a flat 6 hit weapon rather than a d6 hit weapon, and a flurry of hits helps mitigate the moving and shooting heavy weapons modifier as getting ~3 shredder hits feels quite a bit better then only getting ~1 heat ray or HGC shot landed.
I think it comes down to what the stalker's role in the army is. If you're trying to buff troop blobs and tesla shots you will probably be shooting at the infantry those units want to shoot at anyway where the expensive options are largely wasted (i'm not paying 171 points for a heavy flamer, dispersed heat ray) while supporting doomsday arks you probably want the added range and/or punch of the 2 shot weapons.
Triarch stalkers are also much better in fights than i thought at first, they're basically a warscythe overlord minus a WS and some AP.
Was doing some numbers, conscript blobs only hit night/doom scythes on 6+ AND wound on 6+, not to mention the 3+ armor save. If my math is right, that means 100 conscript lasgun shots only does ~ 0.85 wounds? Maybe we can do something with that...
Also, do tesseract vaults get to use the same ctan power multiple times? It says you can use three powers above 15 wounds, not each power once
Well C'tan powers are not warp powers so I think this means you can. Even so I don't think it is any way worth it at nearly 500 points, you will do much better with those points in practically anything else.
The combo of topics did have me thinking about the use of the seismic assault power against the likely blobs of conscripts to boyz to gants. Might be a great use of you are taking a ctan anyway and face hordes. Not a primary weapon but a cool additional counter.
Looking at the requirements for Brigade Detachment, I thought,
"Pfft, there's no way we can make that work, all our stuff is way too expensive." But then I thought I'd try just an experiment, and,
...
Well what do you know, looks like it doesn't completely suck?
I'd love to free up some more points so I can raise my troop numbers, but I don't know what would be best to drop substitute. (can't "drop" anything, have exactly the required number of units for each slot. Can only replace a current unit with something cheaper)
buddha wrote: The combo of topics did have me thinking about the use of the seismic assault power against the likely blobs of conscripts to boyz to gants. Might be a great use of you are taking a ctan anyway and face hordes. Not a primary weapon but a cool additional counter.
Seismic assault essentially deletes 1/6 of unit, which is 8.33 of a 50 man conscript blob. 8.33 conscripts is only worth 25 points though...
From my very limited game knowledge, what seems to really make the conscripts OP is that comissars make them only lose 1 man at most from morale, and at only 30 points apiece! Otherwise they would be much easier to deal with. 10 tesla immortals with MWBD average 13.33 kills on conscripts, and without a commissar would take another 6 in the morale phase.
I'm wondering what the answer will be. Using nigh-invincible nightscythes to drop in blobs of flayed ones with some tesla on the side?
Busting hordes like that is where I start thinking about the ABarge with all Tesla. Mind you, horde busting isn't really hard with Necrons given the sheer bulk of S4-5 dakka they put out. The last list I wrote up (2000pts) was putting out more than 200 Guass Flayer rounds at close range, then tack on the Tesla and big guns.
I like the Seismic Assault idea for hordes though.
Just an FYI, gauss shots to dead guardsmen is roughly 3-1 at BS3+ and a little worse than 2-1 at BS 2+. Using Stalkers to reroll ones on those blobs is probably the most efficient buff there. At that point you need 110 gauss shots to erase a 50 man squad. Very doable IMO.
Quick question, can we use Time's Arrow to snipe characters? It says "pick a visible enemy". I'm not sure if the powers count as shooting attacks or what. If they're not, what are the rules that govern their use? Maybe I should check YMDC...
BrotherGecko wrote: Instead of building lists that try to maximize the chances of first turn assaults and alpha strikes, has anyone attenpts to build a two phase hammer and anvil strategy?
Peering into other tactics threads and it seems alpha is the desired go to. I was thinking of maybe working on a list that bets to recieve alpha strike attempts on my anvil and then deepstrikes the hammer in behind the alpha strike. Catching it on a two front attack.
I don't know enough about the future 8th meta to understand if that could ever work though.
Alpha is popular because it works and it's hard to screw up/counter. You either let them control the tempo or let them have the fight they want. It's not without risks though, if you all in on someone and they out alpha you you're up a creek, and if someone can avoid your alpha while still attacking effectively Alpha lists generally don't have a second trick to fall back on.
In 8th ed the alpha lists rely on synergy between characters and units, which when combined with the fact anything can be killed gives us an opportunities we didn't have in 7th. If your anti-character game is strong you can take the gas out of the tank by getting rid of the auras that are making the units dangerous. Examples are the C'Tan power Time's arrow, which if you are willing to blow a reroll on it, 56% of the time can delete a 4 wound character without them getting a save, or bodyguard substitutions being possible. Another option is for 200 points a 10 man deathmark squad should be able to kill just about any 5 wound character since they can land in rapid fire range and can send a fair amount of mortal wounds their way in addition to their normal damage, just don't expect them to get a second turn. One last option is that nemesor zahndrekh can turn off nearby auras, which can be a nice denial mechanism.
I think marines will be the kings of alpha in 8th ed, their character buffs are auras, so it affect multiple units, and no thought is required, just keep them close and you are good. All three of their common Buffs are offense based, Reroll 1's to hit (captain), reroll 1's to wound (leutnant), and +1 attack (ancient). It means space marines in formation are going to offensively greater than the sum of their parts.
Sadly Time's Arrow says "pick a visible enemy unit" so you can't target characters inside other units...
However I think that does mean you can target solo characters outside of units even if they arent the closest, unlike regular shooting.
I think one of the best uses for the powers will be the antimatter meteor on stuff like terminators or units with annoying invuln saves, like our own lychguard
I thought somebody said somewhere that the C'tan powers were usable even while they are in CQB? Any confirmation on that?
Hah, that would suggest I and the people I play with actually have time. No, I tried a quick test game at the GW store when they got the books in, but we all probably won't have time to actually sort out a weekend to play until after the actual release (life, man). For the time being I'm still trying to theoryhammer out what I want to take. That's what discussions like this are good for- Looking at what other people have tried, figuring out what would be good, what needs to be reevaluated, etc. Thus far most of the lists I write up are just experiments to see if I can make something that pulls off an interesting gimmick (eg. Deceiver Bomb, Destroyer Wing, Speed 'Crons, Scarab Spam, Quantum Shielding Wall), but I think I'm getting pretty close to settling on a decent TAC list. Won't know for sure until I can take it for a few test drives... *sigh*
crunkDealer wrote: Sadly Time's Arrow says "pick a visible enemy unit" so you can't target characters inside other units...
However I think that does mean you can target solo characters outside of units even if they arent the closest, unlike regular shooting.
I think one of the best uses for the powers will be the antimatter meteor on stuff like terminators or units with annoying invuln saves, like our own lychguard
I thought somebody said somewhere that the C'tan powers were usable even while they are in CQB? Any confirmation on that?
Visible only refers to LoS, characters with other enemies closer are visible, just not targetable by most shooting attacks, if they weren't considered visible then they wouldn't be targetable by things like sniper weapons. This leads into the next point, C'Tan powers are not shooting attacks, so like smite they can be used in CCB and against enemies in CCB. As an aside, This is why smite is always closest unit, since it can be spammed people would use it to snipe out enemy characters. Time's arrow on the other hand is your choice of targets, so you can use it to take out characters, but if you use the power on a unit with more than one model, the defender gets to decide which model is removed as a casualty. It's an interesting power, with the possibility for a much higher DPR than anti-matter meteor, but it's also riskier, and there are some opponents it won't work on at all. On night bringer it would be my go to, since he has a shooting attack he can use if time's arrow isn't viable, but on deceiver it's best to stick with AMM.
Rezolut wrote: If monolith and night scythe do not have transport key wordind - can units going on table via monolith and night scythe move and charge? I
Nope. This seems to be getting missed by a lot of people talking about deceiver bombs.
The only way* to get better than a 9" charge on the first turn is with NZ and VOs Ghostwalk mantle.
Deceiver bomb is not really a viable strategy. To do it properly it will cost most of your 200pt list and it doesn't work if you get seized on or your opponent has taken some screening units.
*you can of course get first turn charges more easily if you go second and your opponent moves towards you.
Huh, they operate just like transports (must "disembark" before vehicle moves) but units that enter this way have the "deep strike" penalty of not being to move after hitting the table because they count as having moved.
Hopefully this is just (yet another) accidental omission/oversight and they fix it with a FAQ, but for the time being,
Wow, the Monolith is EVEN WORSE than we thought!
skoffs wrote: Huh, they operate just like transports (must "disembark" before vehicle moves) but units that enter this way have the "deep strike" penalty of not being to move after hitting the table because they count as having moved. Hopefully this is just (yet another) accidental omission/oversight and they fix it with a FAQ, but for the time being, Wow, the Monolith is EVEN WORSE than we thought!
Remember that one is allowed to disembark up to 3" away from the vehicle, so its not a 9" charge but more of a potential 6" charge. Its not that bad, really. You'll never be able to get a first turn charge with the monolith anyway; you deploy the monolith at the end of your movement phase, and units are deployed from the monolith before it moves. I know necrons are capable of time travel, but I don't think that applies here.
I am still going to try the D-bomb even though I don't think it's very good.
I think you need to drop your whole army in front of the enemy, including characters to support the infantry. The only way I can see to do this is to use Grand Illusion to put the Deceiver, a Monolith (with unit in waiting) and a ghost ark with characters (Zhandrek + compulsory cryptek) 12" from the enemy. Then also have VO and a unit of 10 scythe guard deployed to teleport up 1st turn. The unit coming out of the monolith should probably be a shooting unit so 20 warriors seems best.
That gives:
N. Zandrek
V. Obyron
Orkian (Might as well take the best Cryptek)
20 Warriors
Ghost Ark
10x Lichguard
Deceiver
Monolith
All that can be moved up on the first turn and comes to 1790. 10 Flayed ones seems the best unit to round off the list to 2000. They can drop in with the rest of the army and takes the list to 3 elite choices which, after taking the -1cp hit for an extra HQ, gives a legal list.
So 6 drops for a probable first turn with 2000pts in the opponents face. It's not going to work consistently and may have too few units to work even if you don't get seized on/ screened.
I may have set a new record for bad spelling of Necron units, no easy task.
Rezolut wrote: If monolith and night scythe do not have transport key wordind - can units going on table via monolith and night scythe move and charge? I
They wouldn't be able to move or advance but they can still act normally (shoot, charge, etc) according to the Reinforcement rules. It's on the side of the page for the Movement Phase rules.
So for matched play, do you pay the points for gear a model is described as being equipped with? Such as the necron overlord and the staff of light. It says the overlord has a staff of light but the points section lists points for that weapon, so do you have to pay for it? Or triarch praetorians who have rod of the covenant but its listed with points and they are the only unit that can have them, so are they actually a base 35pts then?
BrotherGecko wrote: So for matched play, do you pay the points for gear a model is described as being equipped with? Such as the necron overlord and the staff of light. It says the overlord has a staff of light but the points section lists points for that weapon, so do you have to pay for it? Or triarch praetorians who have rod of the covenant but its listed with points and they are the only unit that can have them, so are they actually a base 35pts then?
You have to pay for any base wargear. So the cost of an Overlord will be the cost of the base Overlord plus the cost of a Staff of Light.
BrotherGecko wrote: So for matched play, do you pay the points for gear a model is described as being equipped with? Such as the necron overlord and the staff of light. It says the overlord has a staff of light but the points section lists points for that weapon, so do you have to pay for it? Or triarch praetorians who have rod of the covenant but its listed with points and they are the only unit that can have them, so are they actually a base 35pts then?
You have to pay for gear.
The points cost for the model is what you're paying for its base stats and its rules. The weapons are bought separately.
Case in point - Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are the same points cost base, but the weapons aren't.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Remember that one is allowed to disembark up to 3" away from the vehicle, so its not a 9" charge but more of a potential 6" charge.
Its not that bad, really.
You'll never be able to get a first turn charge with the monolith anyway; you deploy the monolith at the end of your movement phase, and units are deployed from the monolith before it moves.
That applies to a Monolith coming in via "deep strike", or whatever we're calling it now.
The method of use for the Deceiver Bomb has it on the table on the first turn already, then moved up with the Grand Illusion power, at which point the unit in waiting "disembarks" and moves up, getting into position to charge. Or at least that USED to be the plan, until it was realized that because it and the Night Scythe lack the Transport keyword it means any units coming out of them would have counted as having moved, despite coming in exactly like a units getting out of a transport would have. Without this extra penalty a first turn charge from a Monolith redeployed via Grand Illusion would have totally been doable. As is, yeah, it would be a 9" charge (12" away via Grand Illusion minus 3" closer when stepping out of the Monolith).
So yeah, looks like Obyron bringing a single unit of Scythe Lychguard is the only reliable first turn charging we can do. All the rest of a Deceiver Bomb's alpha strike is going to have to be shooting.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Remember that one is allowed to disembark up to 3" away from the vehicle, so its not a 9" charge but more of a potential 6" charge.
Its not that bad, really.
You'll never be able to get a first turn charge with the monolith anyway; you deploy the monolith at the end of your movement phase, and units are deployed from the monolith before it moves.
That applies to a Monolith coming in via "deep strike", or whatever we're calling it now.
The method of use for the Deceiver Bomb has it on the table on the first turn already, then moved up with the Grand Illusion power, at which point the unit in waiting "disembarks" and moves up, getting into position to charge. Or at least that USED to be the plan, until it was realized that because it and the Night Scythe lack the Transport keyword it means any units coming out of them would have counted as having moved, despite coming in exactly like a units getting out of a transport would have. Without this extra penalty a first turn charge from a Monolith redeployed via Grand Illusion would have totally been doable. As is, yeah, it would be a 9" charge (12" away via Grand Illusion minus 3" closer when stepping out of the Monolith).
So yeah, looks like Obyron bringing a single unit of Scythe Lychguard is the only reliable first turn charging we can do. All the rest of a Deceiver Bomb's alpha strike is going to have to be shooting.
I think the best Deceiver Bomb is with a Ghost Ark holding Zahndrekh and an understrength unit of Warriors + Obyron/Scytheguard. I'm still not a huge fan of "gaming" the Understrength rule, but it is really good in this situation, as you can use it to get good shooting midfield + get a melee bomb off.
Deceiver is still a pretty good option if you're running Gauss Immortal units (for hopefully obvious reasons) or QS spam. Plopping a Heat Ray Stalker or two in the middle of the table is hard to shift (especially if there's big enough cover to block it), plus Barges/DDArks in the backfield to support them, is quite powerful. Get the Stalkers in range shoot the Heat Ray without moving, and if they get charged they're actually not too bad in combat with 3+/AP-1/Dd3.
Aren't the stalkers valuable enough that they won't be the first thing you feed to the enemy? Or could you advance with a scarab screen ahead of them in your first turn?
Requizen wrote: I think the best Deceiver Bomb is with a Ghost Ark holding Zahndrekh and an understrength unit of Warriors + Obyron/Scytheguard. I'm still not a huge fan of "gaming" the Understrength rule, but it is really good in this situation, as you can use it to get good shooting midfield + get a melee bomb off.
Deceiver is still a pretty good option if you're running Gauss Immortal units (for hopefully obvious reasons) or QS spam. Plopping a Heat Ray Stalker or two in the middle of the table is hard to shift (especially if there's big enough cover to block it), plus Barges/DDArks in the backfield to support them, is quite powerful. Get the Stalkers in range shoot the Heat Ray without moving, and if they get charged they're actually not too bad in combat with 3+/AP-1/Dd3.
Oh, for sure, Grand Illusion-ing up a Ghost Ark with Zahndrekh inside is now pretty much the only way to go for a CC focused Deceiver Bomb until they errata the Monolith and Night Scythe... but like someone above said, those two are still good things to include in an Alpha Strike list (only now you've gotta have shooty guys disembark to be of any use that turn).
So yeah, if you can get two units up with Grand Illusion, in addition to Z's Ghost Ark, yes, a Stalker wouldn't be a bad 2nd thing to bring along, seeing as how you would be wanting to get the most out of your shooting in that opening volley to mitigate as much retaliation as possible. I was almost considering taking Anrakyr for a 3rd Grand Illusion candidate (to give the Lychguard a bonus attack). If you end up only being able to take 2 out of the D3, and one of them was the Stalker, Anraykr's Tach Arrow would still be able to benefit from the reroll buff from anywhere on the table (S10 AP-5 d6D at 120", BS2+ rerolling 1s). ... But actually, what about a huge unit of Flayed Ones instead of Lychguard to accompany Obyron? Less AP but a huge number of attacks (even more so if Anrakyr comes along). You'd be able to spread out and effectively draw in several units. Only major downside I can think of is trying to fit 20 of them within 6" of Zahndrekh.
Equivalent points of Warscythes do better against 4+ armor or better at all ranges, against 5+ armor at T5/T6/T8 (but that's a pretty rare statline), and never at 6+.
Flayed Ones are a better choice for T4 5+/6+, which is pretty much just tarpit stuff.
If you want to blob it out to 20, those numbers might change a bit, but I'm honestly not expecting them to outpace too hard. And you're right, getting them all in the bubble and also all in range to attack is probably a challenge.
14 FOs also have less Wounds and Effective Wounds via worse Save and Toughness. I would say the Lychguard are better in any situation that matters. Except maybe against Tyranids, where you'll want the Flayed Ones to clear out small bugs and then use heavy guns on the big ones.
Requizen wrote: You can get 14 Flayed Ones for the price of 10 Scytheguard.
Well if we're going Alpha Strike we'll want to get maximum punch, either way. Unit of 20 Flayed Ones (80 attacks) or 10 Scytheguard (20 attacks), charging with Obyron (3 more attacks)*. If Anrakyr is taken in the list but can't come along for the Grand Illusion, he can at least grant the FOs or Lychguard a handy MWBD buff before Obyron Ghostwalks them away.
*Just to confirm: charging units no longer get +1 to attack in 8th, right? It's just the "get to attack first" bonus, correct? (didn't see anything about it in the rules... but we may have forgotten about that in the game we played. Oops)
Also worth considering, Wounds dealt by Warscythes will be 2D each that doesn't spill over if killing one wound models. Flayed ones are straight 1:1 ... You could always bring both in the list, that way you'll have some tactical flexibility? (if horde target, Obyron brings the FOs. If multi-wound target, Lychguard it is.)
Flayed Ones add the ability to react to your opponents deployment or first turn... something you don't have with Lychguard unless you take a Night Scythe with them.
Yep, charging units no longer get the +1 attack, now you get to attack first and hopefully remove some of the opponent's ability to hit back.
This game is not going to be won at list building... it could be lost at list building though. Tactical Flexibility is something that is going to matter.
Anpu-adom wrote: Flayed Ones add the ability to react to your opponents deployment or first turn... something you don't have with Lychguard unless you take a Night Scythe with them.
Yep, charging units no longer get the +1 attack, now you get to attack first and hopefully remove some of the opponent's ability to hit back.
This game is not going to be won at list building... it could be lost at list building though. Tactical Flexibility is something that is going to matter.
Still think Flayed Ones are too expensive for what they are. Sure, they may be better at punching out weaker 1W models, but honestly, have we ever struggled with that? We can do that with Tesla, or even just massed Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks.
Scythe Lychguard are great because they let us punch through tougher units. TWC is going to still be a thing. People will still take Riptides and Wraithknights even though they went up in cost. 3 Imperial Knight armies are going to be a thing. Flayed Ones have no place against those units, other than maybe popping up on an objective and trying to cap it. Warscythe Lychguard, if they get in, are potentially the best units available for dropping them in a single round or so.
The only other things we have to take those types of targets out reliably are Heavy Destroyers and Doomsday Arks, but with the high number of attacks, I think the Lychguard will overall more reliable, and Knights only get their 5++ against shooting as well.
So WS Lychguard would appear to be the better choice, with all the accompanying shooting taking out the single wound stuff.
What else would be good to support a Deceiver Bomb? Unfortunately the main components (Deceiver, Zahndrekh, Obyron) take up 556 points of your army, 856 including the LG. That doesn't leave a lot of room for extra toys. Ghost Ark + Warriors, that's going to be another 290, which already puts it over a thousand (1146, to be precise). What do you get for the last 850-ish points? Monolith + Immortals? (lot of AP-2 shooting) A bunch of Deathmarks? (get rid of enemy support characters first to make killing the rest easier)* More HQ? (eg. Anrakyr or Orikan to buff your guys) Some Night Scythes? (for mobile Tesla Destructors) The aforementioned Stalker with maybe Doomsday Ark down your side? Something else? (Flayed ones for counter assault deterrent)
*If Tesla procs on a 5 or 6 on Immortals if they have been buffed with MWBD, does that mean Deathmarks on MWBD would generate bonus mortal wounds on a 5 or 6 as well?
Is their speed high enough that you will never get to hit them more than once with a deep strike like attack? At a 5" move they will never get to anything that does not want to be got.
You cant lock Knights in CC, they can just stomp off. But Knights will have a harder time with QS models in CC since they dont want to use their Swords. Their feet will still do some damage though.
skoffs wrote:So WS Lychguard would appear to be the better choice, with all the accompanying shooting taking out the single wound stuff.
What else would be good to support a Deceiver Bomb?
Unfortunately the main components (Deceiver, Zahndrekh, Obyron) take up 556 points of your army, 856 including the LG. That doesn't leave a lot of room for extra toys.
Ghost Ark + Warriors, that's going to be another 290, which already puts it over a thousand (1146, to be precise).
What do you get for the last 850-ish points?
Monolith + Immortals? (lot of AP-2 shooting)
A bunch of Deathmarks? (get rid of enemy support characters first to make killing the rest easier)*
More HQ? (eg. Anrakyr or Orikan to buff your guys)
Some Night Scythes? (for mobile Tesla Destructors)
The aforementioned Stalker with maybe Doomsday Ark down your side?
Something else? (Flayed ones for counter assault deterrent)
Probably Tesla Immortals and maybe an Annibarge or two. With the bomb you'll have 2 units plus an Ark and some Characters up close right off the bat, so you Tesla being able to do great from 24" is nice plus it can clear out small stuff and tarpits.
*If Tesla procs on a 5 or 6 on Immortals if they have been buffed with MWBD, does that mean Deathmarks on MWBD would generate bonus mortal wounds on a 5 or 6 as well?
No, because it's a Wound roll of 6+.
Pyrothem wrote:Queston about knights:
Is their speed high enough that you will never get to hit them more than once with a deep strike like attack? At a 5" move they will never get to anything that does not want to be got.
Possibly, but 10 Warscythes statistically deal 8.88 wounds on the charge (11.11 if they get MWBD) so they're pretty likely to cripple the thing before it gets a chance to back out. A Knight hitting on 4s is much less scary.
Fragile wrote:You cant lock Knights in CC, they can just stomp off. But Knights can rarely ever kill a QS model in CC since they do 6 damage per hit.
I think at that point they're more likely to use their feet which do more hits at D1 each.
I'm confused by the deceiver sucks comments, we are primarily a shooting army in this edition, so the inability to charge after moving isn't that important. What is important is that our opponent has no idea what our final deployment will be like, so he has to spread out.
It's our answer to Alpha lists, allowing us concentration and denying our opponent the same. Good opponents will hate seeing the deceiver on the board, bad opponents won't even know what hit them.
Could the Catacomb Command Barge be a worthwhile option to use in order to chase knights around? Also, what are your guys' opinion on sword and board lychguard vs warscythe lychguard?
Hakumei wrote: Could the Catacomb Command Barge be a worthwhile option to use in order to chase knights around? Also, what are your guys' opinion on sword and board lychguard vs warscythe lychguard?
Eh, it doesn't put out enough damage to really threaten a Knight and will die to the retaliation. We're better off trying to shoot it to death or instagib it on the charge with Lychguard.
Hakumei wrote: Could the Catacomb Command Barge be a worthwhile option to use in order to chase knights around? Also, what are your guys' opinion on sword and board lychguard vs warscythe lychguard?
For lychguard I loved sword and broad in 7th, man they could hold their ground well, used to never even think about running scythes, but now after seeing the rules for them in 8th, im feeling warscythes almost all the way. I need to get a few games in though to see how important that invuln is now a days but umph its hard to pass up the killing power of those scythes.
Hakumei wrote: Could the Catacomb Command Barge be a worthwhile option to use in order to chase knights around? Also, what are your guys' opinion on sword and board lychguard vs warscythe lychguard?
They can just stomp instead of using their Chain sword, which kill the 8 wounds of the CCB pretty quick.
If taking Warscythe Lychguard, bringing Orikan with them isn't a bad idea (his 5++ covers units in CC, too)... don't know if I'd bring him in a Deceiver Bomb, though. The idea there is maximum damage dealt in the first turn, and he'd only be contributing to survivability. I'd go with Anrakyr if I had to take a 3rd HQ with that setup. Actually, I'd go with Anrakyr most times if I'm taking Scytheguard. That extra attack is worth the points... only downside is he can't take vehicles, yet.
>:/
Just asked on the Frontline Gaming stream, sounds like either they or GW will FAQ Understrength Units to not be voluntary or something similar (maybe just not in Matched Play or tournaments). So no Zahndrekh + 9 Warriors.
Wow.
Okay, load up on characters for the party bus, then, I guess...
Can they FAQ some things to go IN our favor as well?
(eg. change <DYNASTY> INFANTRY to just say NECRON INFANTRY instead on the wording of Ghost Ark, Night Scythe, Monolith, My Will Be Done, Ghostwalk Mantle, etc. Give the Monolith and Night Scythe the TRANSPORT keyword. What else do we need clarification on that might hopefully help our army?)
Wow, I finally read the whole thread and caught up! If I could just quit my job I would be much better at this...
Grimgold wrote: I'm confused by the deceiver sucks comments, we are primarily a shooting army in this edition, so the inability to charge after moving isn't that important. What is important is that our opponent has no idea what our final deployment will be like, so he has to spread out.
Agree with this. Since the rules changed and we cannot move the Night Scythe within 12" of an enemy then beam down a unit of rapid fire units the Deceiver virtually gives us this option. I am assuming the Deceiver's 12" away is the only limitation to placement anywhere on the table. If redeployment is just the C'tan and Scythe there is going to be a good space to plunk that down or your opponent is going to have a janky deployment to stop it.
I also want to see Anrakyr focused on Tessla madness with the benefit of providing an extra attack for Immortals when the enemy attempts cc after they tire of getting hit with 25 hits from 20 dice.
I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".
Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.
Grimgold wrote: I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".
Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.
I watched that batrep. Lots of tactical errors on the Necron player's part.
Grimgold wrote: I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".
Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.
Was considering subbing for this 8th ed launch month just to get more 40k content, is it worthwhile?
Remember: Add a Stalker into the mix with Tesla Immortals that have been given MWBD and it's 2+ to hit, rerolling 1s, and every 5 or 6 adds two more hits.
Yeaaaah, that's good.
Hakumei wrote:
I watched that batrep. Lots of tactical errors on the Necron player's part.
The public one, certainly. His warriors more or less carried him to what victory points he achieved, and an annihilation barge had no place in that fight. He held his lychguard back for too long, and when it came time to put the petal to the metal they were sorely lacking. I think he should have massed fire at the deathwing instead of trying to duke it out with them.
The second one felt like the ad mech players game to lose, and no spoilers, but things did not got the way i expected.
Requizen wrote:
Was considering subbing for this 8th ed launch month just to get more 40k content, is it worthwhile?
Hmm if it's just 8th ed content, well it depends. If you're interested in multiple armies, it should be worth picking it up for a month, but if you are only watching one specific armies batreps maybe not. They are the gold standard for batreps though, and they have spoiled me for batreps to the point where it's hard for me to watch other batreps. They also have other fun content like bloodbowl, AoS, and their narrative campaigns (a personal favorite). Though if you do subscribe you get to see their dark imperium batrep, which was a good fight, their ancient's banner for the MWG chapter of primaris space marines is suitably amusing. My suggestion try the free trial, it will last until launch, and gives you all the 8th ed faction focus content.
Grimgold wrote: They are the gold standard for batreps though
I do like the way they're presented, but every time I watch one involving Necrons there are just SO MANY rules mistakes that it just really puts me off.
Grimgold wrote: I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".
Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.
Would warscythes on the lychguard have made a very big difference though? the terminators had 3++ save anyway, and you were wounding them on 3+ all the same. There is twice the damage though would have made every wound inflicted count double, but they would have withered down faster. But I feel the warscythes are somewhat wasted on 3++,
In previous editions, the best weapons to use against 3++ saves were mass Tesla anything and Flayed Ones.
How's about this edition?
Maybe try mortal wounds?
(so C'tan and Deathmarks)
skoffs wrote: In previous editions, the best weapons to use against 3++ saves were mass Tesla anything and Flayed Ones.
How's about this edition?
Maybe try mortal wounds?
(so C'tan and Deathmarks)
Wraiths equipped with Transdimensional Beamer deal mortal wound(s) on a 6+.
skoffs wrote: In previous editions, the best weapons to use against 3++ saves were mass Tesla anything and Flayed Ones.
How's about this edition?
Maybe try mortal wounds?
(so C'tan and Deathmarks)
Wraiths equipped with Transdimensional Beamer deal mortal wound(s) on a 6+.
So do deathmarks though, and they have a great chance of inflicting them through sheer numbers
skoffs wrote: What are the stats on 10 rapid fire range Deathmarks? How many 6s to wound would we be likely to see?
Not many. Even if you hit with every shot, 3-4. When all is said and done, 2 dead termies is probably a reasonable outcome. It can work if you have other stuff firing and/or charging them as well.
So do deathmarks though, and they have a great chance of inflicting them through sheer numbers
I wasn't comparing Deathmarks to Wraiths. Only stated that Wraiths can deal Mortal Wounds as well.
I think Deathmarks are great. I really like them in 2 units of 7-8. Only problem with Deathmarks is that their Disintegrator has no AP value while the Wraiths T.Beamer is AP -3.
Wraiths can be good though. 52pts per model if equipped with the T.Beamer and Vicious Claws which isn't too bad with M:12" T:5 W:3 and 3++. They will hit on 4+ with the T.Beamer if they move due to it being a Heavy Weapon but if your going for Mortal Wounds then that isn't an issue.
Perhaps 10 deathmarks is a reasonable priced speed bump for deepstriking terminators? The termies can hardly ignore them,, would take perhaps 3-4 casualties and would be kept busy in cc for a turn or two
So do deathmarks though, and they have a great chance of inflicting them through sheer numbers
I wasn't comparing Deathmarks to Wraiths. Only stated that Wraiths can deal Mortal Wounds as well.
I think Deathmarks are great. I really like them in 2 units of 7-8. Only problem with Deathmarks is that their Disintegrator has no AP value while the Wraiths T.Beamer is AP -3.
Wraiths can be good though. 52pts per model if equipped with the T.Beamer and Vicious Claws which isn't too bad with M:12" T:5 W:3 and 3++. They will hit on 4+ with the T.Beamer if they move due to it being a Heavy Weapon but if your going for Mortal Wounds then that isn't an issue.
Just so there is no misunderstanding, T. Beamer need to wound on a 6+, not simply hit on a 6+. Fewer hits (for instance if wraiths move), certainly reduces mortals wound outcome
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I were to kit out the wraiths, with what I know so far the pistol seems the only meaningful option
If I were to kit out the wraiths, with what I know so far the pistol seems the only meaningful option
At 4 points for the pistol vs 14 points for the Beamer the pistol does win but its only 1 s6 ap0 d1 shot vs 1-3 shots s4 ap-3 d1.
I still think the Beamer is better. While its 10 points more and goes to a 4+ to hit(thank you for clearing that up) if moved, it has a chance to do more shots at 4+ and reduce a save. I rather my opponent take a 5+ save rather then a 2+ save. Even if the odds are not that good it's always nice to roll more dice.
It will all depend on your local meta though.
I would say to try everything out a few times before we decide what options are the best.
If I were to kit out the wraiths, with what I know so far the pistol seems the only meaningful option
At 4 points for the pistol vs 14 points for the Beamer the pistol does win but its only 1 s6 ap0 d1 shot vs 1-3 shots s4 ap-3 d1.
I still think the Beamer is better. While its 10 points more and goes to a 4+ to hit(thank you for clearing that up) if moved, it has a chance to do more shots at 4+ and reduce a save. I rather my opponent take a 5+ save rather then a 2+ save. Even if the odds are not that good it's always nice to roll more dice.
It will all depend on your local meta though.
I would say to try everything out a few times before we decide what options are the best.
Also consider the pistol is an assault weapon that they can fire when advancing, and while they are tarpitting someone in cc
Grimgold wrote: I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".
Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.
Would warscythes on the lychguard have made a very big difference though? the terminators had 3++ save anyway, and you were wounding them on 3+ all the same. There is twice the damage though would have made every wound inflicted count double, but they would have withered down faster. But I feel the warscythes are somewhat wasted on 3++,
Killing a Termie per fail is a big difference. There's a massive divide between a wounded terminator with TH/SS or PF/SS and one that's dead.
torblind wrote: Perhaps 10 deathmarks is a reasonable priced speed bump for deepstriking terminators? The termies can hardly ignore them,, would take perhaps 3-4 casualties and would be kept busy in cc for a turn or two
So do deathmarks though, and they have a great chance of inflicting them through sheer numbers
I wasn't comparing Deathmarks to Wraiths. Only stated that Wraiths can deal Mortal Wounds as well.
I think Deathmarks are great. I really like them in 2 units of 7-8. Only problem with Deathmarks is that their Disintegrator has no AP value while the Wraiths T.Beamer is AP -3.
Wraiths can be good though. 52pts per model if equipped with the T.Beamer and Vicious Claws which isn't too bad with M:12" T:5 W:3 and 3++. They will hit on 4+ with the T.Beamer if they move due to it being a Heavy Weapon but if your going for Mortal Wounds then that isn't an issue.
Just so there is no misunderstanding, T. Beamer need to wound on a 6+, not simply hit on a 6+. Fewer hits (for instance if wraiths move), certainly reduces mortals wound outcome
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I were to kit out the wraiths, with what I know so far the pistol seems the only meaningful option
Remember it's d3 shots, so average 2. 6 Wraiths get more shots on average than 5 Rapid Firing Deathmarks. Deathmarks get to do it before being shot, of course.
If I were to kit out the wraiths, with what I know so far the pistol seems the only meaningful option
At 4 points for the pistol vs 14 points for the Beamer the pistol does win but its only 1 s6 ap0 d1 shot vs 1-3 shots s4 ap-3 d1.
I still think the Beamer is better. While its 10 points more and goes to a 4+ to hit(thank you for clearing that up) if moved, it has a chance to do more shots at 4+ and reduce a save. I rather my opponent take a 5+ save rather then a 2+ save. Even if the odds are not that good it's always nice to roll more dice.
It will all depend on your local meta though.
I would say to try everything out a few times before we decide what options are the best.
Also consider the pistol is an assault weapon that they can fire when advancing, and while they are tarpitting someone in cc
Pistol and Assault are not the same thing so no you can not Advance and shoot. They're cheap but it's nothing special, at most 6 AP0 shots might plink off an extra wound but that's not really game changing.
I know I couldn't bring myself to run this list, but what about a couple of throw away hqs and spamming DDAs and a couple of HG stalkers. That is a metric ton of fire, and with the numbers you can afford to move a few around to get in range with the flayers.
Huh indeed for some reason I took it for granted you could fire pistols after advancing, since you can use them in cc after all, and bigger weapons than pistols have the assault type.
That changes things definitely, move + fire heavy weapons seem to be an awkward but viable option for wraiths in 8th
Grimgold wrote: I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".
Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.
Would warscythes on the lychguard have made a very big difference though? the terminators had 3++ save anyway, and you were wounding them on 3+ all the same. There is twice the damage though would have made every wound inflicted count double, but they would have withered down faster. But I feel the warscythes are somewhat wasted on 3++,
They would have killed the ancient in a single volley, and gotten at least another knight, those two things combined might have turned the tide.
They would have had to deal the most amount of damage on the charge though. After that the scythguard's lack of an invul would have killed them. The necron player made some horrible tactical decisions. Why would he expose the anni barge like that?
torblind wrote: I don't remember the termies' dmg output, but would the lychguard lived long enough without the 4++?
They had maces that dealt something like 2 damage with a -3 save modifier, so probably not.
Mace of absolution is Three damage and at a -2 AP, so their 4++ would have been replaced by a 5+. Considering how few 4++ he made I don't think it would have made much of a difference.
Requizen wrote: 6 Wraiths get more shots on average than 5 Rapid Firing Deathmarks
1) 6 Wraiths also cost a hell of a lot more than 5 Deathmarks.
2) who takes ONLY 5 Deathmarks?
I should hope 10 rapid firing Deathmarks might be able to deal more mortal wounds than 6 T.Beamer Wraiths.
Is anyone else annoyed they lost their marking ability?
I mean, what's the point of their name now?
They haven't?
Just can't wound on 2's anymore
Where's the mark then? Because I don't see a marking ability.
The wound on 2's fit their name, because it affected a specific unit (marked them) for them to concentrate their fire on.
Now...not so much.
Desubot wrote: do you think a Dawn of war models only army would do ok?
(so no barges or flyers but access to wraiths spiders and stuff. also not sure what to do about the pariahs)
... Actually, you may want to wait for the first expansion for 3, if the post credit tease was any indication.
edit: oh i see what ya mean. nvm
but ether way i dont want to run new crons. i like the old cron stuff which is why im making a limited list. i just wana get maybe up to a 2k list and be done with this army.
Am I the only one who is having problems with his "attack power" on Necrons?
I can completly forget my Heavy Destroyers. Even in cover for the 2+ save my opponent will kill them as soon as posisble (which is turn 1 normally). Las-Cannon Shots are not wasted on them, because they ignore the armor (so that only the 5+ Orikan save is there) and multiwounds are useful in dealing with them.
But also heavy Bolters are good against them...so every weapon targets the Heavy Destroyers (even if I have 6 of them) and takes them out.
I tried running 5 normal Destroyers with 1 heavy Destroyer. That worked better...but the damage was much lower. And I had real problems to open up some vehicles (nothing special, just those awful Razorbacks everyone is spamming).
Do you have any solution to make a hard hitting a 1850 or 2000 point necron army?
Melionodr wrote: Am I the only one who is having problems with his "attack power" on Necrons?
I can completly forget my Heavy Destroyers. Even in cover for the 2+ save my opponent will kill them as soon as posisble (which is turn 1 normally). Las-Cannon Shots are not wasted on them, because they ignore the armor (so that only the 5+ Orikan save is there) and multiwounds are useful in dealing with them.
But also heavy Bolters are good against them...so every weapon targets the Heavy Destroyers (even if I have 6 of them) and takes them out.
I tried running 5 normal Destroyers with 1 heavy Destroyer. That worked better...but the damage was much lower. And I had real problems to open up some vehicles (nothing special, just those awful Razorbacks everyone is spamming).
Do you have any solution to make a hard hitting a 1850 or 2000 point necron army?
You could probably afford to hide them behind LOS blocking. its probably the best bet if they are getting punked that quick.
Desubot wrote: do you think a Dawn of war models only army would do ok?
(so no barges or flyers but access to wraiths spiders and stuff. also not sure what to do about the pariahs)
... Actually, you may want to wait for the first expansion for 3, if the post credit tease was any indication.
edit: oh i see what ya mean. nvm
but ether way i dont want to run new crons. i like the old cron stuff which is why im making a limited list. i just wana get maybe up to a 2k list and be done with this army.
Hmm it might be possible, but you'll be losing a lot of the synergy. In 3rd necrons had a 4+ WBB. Now in order to get the same result you'll need a cryptek. Lords are still around, but they have a fairly weak buff compared to overlords. They can take a res orb at least.
Now what is possible
Spyders are still kind of handy Monoliths are a little bit better, in that they can safely DS, but they are missing their old utility Destroyers are nice, and they work well with the destroyer lord. Probably the only traditional units that work well together Flayed Ones are nice for threatening your opponents rear lines Wraiths are wraiths. They may be canoptek bugs now, but the idea is still the same. You can find some of the old models on Ebay, but they are hard to find and pricey. I use my pariahs as scytheguard Scarabs are scarabs. Gauss Immortals are solid. In a traditional army you'll be taking only this loadout and not tesla
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You can find some of the old models on Ebay, but they are hard to find and pricey.
Exactly the plan
im probably going to run the overlord as its pretty much the same thing.
lacking crypteks sucks but o well.
i will be picking up a nightbrining because its cool balls.
and i got a monolith to repair. so far also have 20ish necron warriors being bent into a not squat mode. i have 1 wraith metal wraith coming in that i might make a push mold to make 2 more and use the new wraith tails as they seem way more stable.
immortals are solid and i like the gauss look anyway. destroyers are good to. im thinking 1-3 spyders and matching scarab swarms as objective grabbers, min infantry and rely on the monolith dropping in behind to remove anything i deem trouble asap.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You can find some of the old models on Ebay, but they are hard to find and pricey.
Exactly the plan
im probably going to run the overlord as its pretty much the same thing.
lacking crypteks sucks but o well.
i will be picking up a nightbrining because its cool balls.
and i got a monolith to repair. so far also have 20ish necron warriors being bent into a not squat mode. i have 1 wraith metal wraith coming in that i might make a push mold to make 2 more and use the new wraith tails as they seem way more stable. immortals are solid and i like the gauss look anyway. destroyers are good to. im thinking 1-3 spyders and matching scarab swarms as objective grabbers, min infantry and rely on the monolith dropping in behind to remove anything i deem trouble asap.
Oh yeah, Deceiver and Nightbringer is solid. The Overlord and the Lord isn't the same, actually. They both have different models, but I don't think your opponent would mind if you do a counts as. The traditional lord looks better anyway; no baby's hat.
You can also use scarabs to screen your c'tan from shooting; as they are characters with less than 9 wounds, they benefit from the character protection rule. So as long as they have scarabs in front of them, your opponent can't shoot them (except with weapons that explicitly allows them to target characters), even though the C'tan is like 10 times the size of a scarab.
I have a feeling they're going to FAQ in that swarms can't do that...
After a reasonable amount of list crunching I think the closest things we get to Deathstars this time around are Zahndrekh bomb (dubious usefulness once Understrength is FAQ'd) and Wraithstar.
Wraiths now have 3 decent Characters to cart around - Destroyer Lords and the two C'tan. DLords are cheaper (and therefore will end up with more attacks/wounds), and can hang out in cover for 2+. Deceiver can affect your army, allowing you to place Infantry up the field to keep up with the Star even without vehicles. And the Nightbringer, well he's a beast with essentially Fleshbane on his weapon and a decent (if unreliable) shooting attack.
While the C'tan are powerful, their high expense and relatively low save (can't get them 3+ in combat, which is painful) makes me want to try Destroyer Lords. Here's an attempt:
Immortals x10, Tesla
Immortals x10, Tesla
Warriors x18
Heavy Destroyers x3
Doomsday Ark
Outrider
Destroyer Lord, Warscythe
Wraiths x4
Wraiths x4
Wraiths x4
Wraiths x4
With proper positioning, the opponent should have to chew through 16 Wraiths to get to a single DLord. Once they get into combat, the Wraiths can tie things up across the map while the DLords hit preferred targets and the Infantry/Heavies/DDArks lie down supporting fire.
That may be a bit heavy on Wraiths, they're still not the killiest things in the game, after all. However, they do attract a lot of fire, which is good. To cut down on Wraiths, one could drop a unit of 4 and take two units of 15 Warriors instead of one unit of 20, which potentially will have better midfield control.
This really hinges on the 3 DLords being quite killy, which they potentially are. If they all hit a target together, that's 12 Warscythe hits rerolling 1s. With 6 Wounds and 4++ on each, they're quite capable of surviving even Lascannons once they're out from behind their screen. However, it still doesn't hit as hard as something like a TWC star or anything like that, so don't expect a smashy hammer of doom walking across the board and tabling opponents. More like a mass tarpit that can cut down choice units.
Can someone point meas to why the deceiver-bomb with monolith doesn't work? I've seen it stated previously but must have missed an explanation somewhere.
I mean having a deceiver with a Monolith/Scythe and Zandrekh + Obyron. Redeploy the Monolith/Scythe, walk out with Zandrekh and Veil away the Lychguard (or choice of unit).
That way we can cut down the distance by:
Redeploy Mono/Scythe: 12''
Gate in Zandrekh: 9''
Veil Oby+Crew: 3''
Charge 2''
arhurt wrote: Can someone point meas to why the deceiver-bomb with monolith doesn't work? I've seen it stated previously but must have missed an explanation somewhere.
I mean having a deceiver with a Monolith/Scythe and Zandrekh + Obyron. Redeploy the Monolith/Scythe, walk out with Zandrekh and Veil away the Lychguard (or choice of unit).
That way we can cut down the distance by:
Redeploy Mono/Scythe: 12''
Gate in Zandrekh: 9''
Veil Oby+Crew: 3''
Charge 2''
That is a valid move, correct?
It does work as a telport bomb, but there are other downsides to it as an army build.
Better question - why are we using the Monolith for that bomb? I know it's the new hotness that a Monolith can actually be good, but doesn't the Night Scythe accomplish that bomb for like.....200 points cheaper?
I'm thinking Deceiver + Night Scythe + Lychguard = 9 inch turn 1 charge is pretty good for very little points investment, but of course the down side is that if you get seized on that thing could get lit up more easily. I just don't know if 200 points is a worthwhile investment for anti-alpha protection.
arhurt wrote: Can someone point meas to why the deceiver-bomb with monolith doesn't work? I've seen it stated previously but must have missed an explanation somewhere.
I mean having a deceiver with a Monolith/Scythe and Zandrekh + Obyron. Redeploy the Monolith/Scythe, walk out with Zandrekh and Veil away the Lychguard (or choice of unit).
That way we can cut down the distance by: Redeploy Mono/Scythe: 12'' Gate in Zandrekh: 9'' Veil Oby+Crew: 3'' Charge 2''
That is a valid move, correct?
The Deceiver Bomb with Monolith/Night Scythe and Zahndrekh+Obyron & Lychguard still totally works, but the one where it's just two Monoliths/Night Scythes that spit out two units of Lychguard isn't very good, because as someone realized a few pages back, despite both the Monolith and Night Scythe dropping off their "passengers" exactly like a transport does, those vehicles lack the "TRANSPORT" keyword, meaning any unit that enters the board via this method can't move again that turn. So that means this
luke1705 wrote: I'm thinking Deceiver + Night Scythe + Lychguard = 9 inch turn 1 charge is pretty good
doesn't work out very well (9" is way too easy to fail, leaving your alpha strike stranded in enemy territory surrounded by angry guns, whereas the 2" charge with Zahn & Oby is guaranteed not to fail). The only things that are guaranteed to be useful to your plans the same turn they "disembark" from a Mono/NS are shooting units (which can still be a valid tactic. A ton of Warriors/Immortals stepping out and laying out covering fire to weaken a target for Lychguard to smash into significantly increases the likelihood that you'll remove it from the table, especially if you brought a Stalker as part of the Deceiver's D3 Grand Illusion units).
Conscripts usually have orders, and that means 200 shots not 100. 1/3 to hit, 1/3 to damage, 1/2 to pass save, thats 10 flayed one dead, and thats more points than the entire 50 conscript blob...
But with the remaining 10 flayed one, you do "only" 16 unsaved wounds on average (hit on 2/3, wound on 8/9, pass sabe in 2/3), 17 after morales thanks to a commisar. And the punny humans will kill at least one more flayed one in mellee, even 3 if there are a nearly ministorum priest, before falling back and ley their second rank finish the job.
And everithing only if you overcome the charge of 9" or more after the deep strike, with a 70% of probable failure, even more than 50% of failure with a stratagem reroll.
Overwatch is locked at 6 to hit, no modifiers allowed, right? So for 200 shots it would be 5 or 6 dead, not 10?
Obviously wouldn't be table-ing with flayed ones, but it could be enough to get them off the objective. You could try a lychguard or scarab charge first to eat shots, I'll try and find the minimum # of scarabs to safely charge, lychguard could maybe get in there without a casualty?
I think a modest D-bomb is going to be more effective than building an army around it. Just moving the Deceiver and two units that don't require any extra support into a more aggressive position and not relying on getting first turn. Canoptek units don't need support characters and move at a similar speed to a C'tan so...
Deceiver
9x Scarabs
6x Wraith
It's 570 points and can operate independent of the rest of the army. Grand Illusion onto a flank as the hammer to a phalanx's anvil. No charging 1st turn but it puts a ton of pressure on a flank for not a lot of points.
skoffs wrote: The Deceiver Bomb with Monolith/Night Scythe and Zahndrekh+Obyron & Lychguard still totally works, but the one where it's just two Monoliths/Night Scythes that spit out two units of Lychguard isn't very good, because as someone realized a few pages back, despite both the Monolith and Night Scythe dropping off their "passengers" exactly like a transport does, those vehicles lack the "TRANSPORT" keyword, meaning any unit that enters the board via this method can't move again that turn.
Since Tomb World deployment prevents you from moving after "disembarking-but-not-quite-disembarking", wouldn't it be better to use a Ghost Ark in this case?
Start Zahndrekh inside the Ghost Ark, teleport 12" away with the Deceiver's ability before first turn starts. Then first turn disembark with Zahndrekh, advance with him (average of 8" or so), end of movement phase use Obyron's ability on the Lychguard. Now the Lychguard are between 15-20" from where the Ghost Ark originally popped up, providing Zahndrekh can get there without going within 1" of other infantry. It's 1026 points, but if you roll well enough (or reroll into) with the deceiver you could have something like the deceiver, a ghost ark, Zahndrekh, Obyron, 10 Lychguard, 20 rapid firing Necron Warriors, and a 10 Tesla Immortal squad. The Tesla squad the following turn should be pretty gross if Zahndrekh is still alive and can MWBD them, and the Warriors get the help of the Ghost Ark with RP.
There's probably better combos to throw up with the lychguard should you roll well on the deceiver, but you get the idea.
Main issue is this still relies on going first to be extremely effective. This is not a guarantee seeing as we usually bring few transports. In addition there has been much talk about throwing out the "first to finish goes first" rule in favor of either a straight roll off, or a roll off with a +1 to the first to finish deployment.
Kaeldran wrote: Conscripts usually have orders, and that means 200 shots not 100. 1/3 to hit, 1/3 to damage, 1/2 to pass save, thats 10 flayed one dead, and thats more points than the entire 50 conscript blob...
But with the remaining 10 flayed one, you do "only" 16 unsaved wounds on average (hit on 2/3, wound on 8/9, pass sabe in 2/3), 17 after morales thanks to a commisar. And the punny humans will kill at least one more flayed one in mellee, even 3 if there are a nearly ministorum priest, before falling back and ley their second rank finish the job.
And everithing only if you overcome the charge of 9" or more after the deep strike, with a 70% of probable failure, even more than 50% of failure with a stratagem reroll.
Its a hard calle.
Ok, but if it's the case where Flayed Ones just deepstruck and are trying to charge the conscript unit, then the conscripts can't receive an order since it has to be done at the start of their shooting phase. The order also only lasts that phase as well so no spillover.
Start Zahndrekh inside the Ghost Ark, teleport 12" away with the Deceiver's ability before first turn starts. Then first turn disembark with Zahndrekh, advance with him (average of 8" or so), end of movement phase use Obyron's ability on the Lychguard. Now the Lychguard are between 15-20" from where the Ghost Ark originally popped up
Yep, that's one the ones we were discussing, and actually now the only one that's legal (for the time being).
I still think lots of shooty guys is the best thing to accompany a Deceiver Bomb. Ghost Ark will be okay for some minor support fire, but to inflict heavy casualties you're gonna need a lot more.
I've mentioned taking accompanying Deathmarks and either a Monolith/Night Scythe popping out some Immortals/Warriors or a Stalker paired with a Doomsday Ark on your side of the table with line of sight on the target you're after.
Ok, but if it's the case where Flayed Ones just deepstruck and are trying to charge the conscript unit, then the conscripts can't receive an order since it has to be done at the start of their shooting phase. The order also only lasts that phase as well so no spillover.
Yes, thats true, and I had not taken this into account, no orders in the overwatch, thanks.
Even so, I believe that a charge after DP is too risky, but now I find it somehow more viable, thanks again.
Here's a balanced list built around the Deceiver that does not rely on going first and pulling a lychguard 1st turn charge, or some kind of alpha strike (because that's never going to be a good list):
Orikan
Anrakyr
20x Warriors
Deceiver
10x Lychguard + Scythes
T. Stalker + HGCs
6x Wraith
9x Scarabs
DDA DDA
This gives a very hard to shift phalanx (Orikan, Anrakyr, Warriors + Lychguard), good long range fire support (DDAs + Stalker) and some fast moving assault (Scarabs, Wraith + C'tan).
The Grand Illusion ability can be used in a variety of effective ways with this list:
-C'tan + Wraith + Scarabs
Pretty scary when redeployed onto a flank together.
-C'tan + Orikan + Warriors
Going straight into rapid fire range on a flank, the warriors will be very hard to shift with Orikans support and the Deceivers heroic intervention.
-C'tan + Anrakyr + Lychguard
Very deadly, and durable when deployed in cover.
-C'tan + DDA + DDA Not as balls out scary as the other combos but redeploying the DDAs to better firing positions is a solid option.
This is almost the opposite of the normal D-bomb as it gives a huge amount of flexibility, rather than forcing your whole army into one very specific strategy.
buddha wrote: Can the deceiver move a ghost ark filled with warriors?
If you could guarantee two units then it would he perfect but I'm trying to think how to play for only rolling one.
Use a command point re-roll, that gives a 1/9 chance of only being able to move one unit. Any plan with the Deceiver should be made around shifting two units, 3 is gravy, 1 is unlikely to happen.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Here's a balanced list built around the Deceiver that does not rely on going first and pulling a lychguard 1st turn charge, or some kind of alpha strike (because that's never going to be a good list):
Spoiler:
Orikan
Anrakyr
20x Warriors
Deceiver
10x Lychguard + Scythes
T. Stalker + HGCs
6x Wraith
9x Scarabs
DDA DDA
This gives a very hard to shift phalanx (Orikan, Anrakyr, Warriors + Lychguard), good long range fire support (DDAs + Stalker) and some fast moving assault (Scarabs, Wraith + C'tan).
The Grand Illusion ability can be used in a variety of effective ways with this list:
-C'tan + Wraith + Scarabs
Pretty scary when redeployed onto a flank together.
-C'tan + Orikan + Warriors
Going straight into rapid fire range on a flank, the warriors will be very hard to shift with Orikans support and the Deceivers heroic intervention.
-C'tan + Anrakyr + Lychguard
Very deadly, and durable when deployed in cover.
-C'tan + DDA + DDA Not as balls out scary as the other combos but redeploying the DDAs to better firing positions is a solid option.
This is almost the opposite of the normal D-bomb as it gives a huge amount of flexibility, rather than forcing your whole army into one very specific strategy.
This is really going to be the way to do it I feel. I just don't see much value in the alpha strike gimmicks over a solid army exploiting the reposition for gains.
The "problem" in 8th (only played one game so far against Orcs) is that you can face pure vehicle armies or pure horde armies.
I don't see Necrons have any problems with hordes, but when it comes to vehicles our options are expensive which makes the army less effective against hordes.
In an all comers list the possibility to redeploy units is a huge benefit.
Wouldn't it be best to just use the Deceiver, in case you go first, to redeploy against a weak enemy flank and be able to match correct dakka to correct targets?
In case you go second you have the ability to move units out from line of sight and also change flank.
This way you don't build your army around the Grand Illusion and instead you can take whatever you want.
buddha wrote: Can the deceiver move a ghost ark filled with warriors?
If you could guarantee two units then it would he perfect but I'm trying to think how to play for only rolling one.
Use a command point re-roll, that gives a 1/9 chance of only being able to move one unit. Any plan with the Deceiver should be made around shifting two units, 3 is gravy, 1 is unlikely to happen.
You can't really do averages on one dice, even with the reroll. Better to have your list with a good 1 redeploy option. Ghost Ark with Warriors is a good pick, or a Stalker isn't bad either.
Well, if you just wanted to get some guys in range to quickly threaten, the Deceiver moving 20 Warriors + a Ghost Ark (with Orikan and someone else inside) wouldn't exactly be a bad plan.
Get those two units, plus the Deceiver in place on a flank, your opponent's going to have to divert some attention to deal with them.
Only thing to be careful of is making sure you have fast enough stuff to get up the table to support them, otherwise they're not going to last long, even with 4+/5++/4+++.
I'd suggest a couple of Night Scythes starting on the table and two full Immortal squads in reserve. They can fly up and get in position on the other side of the table for a two side pincer attack in your turn two.
You can't really do averages on one dice, even with the reroll. Better to have your list with a good 1 redeploy option. Ghost Ark with Warriors is a good pick, or a Stalker isn't bad either.
?? You obviously can do averages with one dice and the odds of failing the 3+ re-rolled to move 2 units is 1/9. Not that I disagree with you about having a list that can cope with rolling a one, that's one of the reasons the full on D-bomb is a bad list.
Yep, that's one the ones we were discussing, and actually now the only one that's legal (for the time being).
I must have missed this discussion. What makes redeploying a night scythe or the monolith illegal?
But I think you're right. I was going to go 20 warriors + GA with embarked characters, but I think that the GA can keep up (12" move + 3" aura for res orb or Orikan's ability should be ok, given that the warriors only need to move a few inches to get into rapid fire range, and the ghost ark can advance if need be.
I'm thinking just giving up the turn 1 charge entirely and having my Lychguard be almost guaranteed a turn 2 charge is fine (assuming my d3 roll is a 2 with my CP re-roll if need be) and also my warriors rapid firing turn 1 with a 5++, 4+ RP and a RP re-roll if necessary is pretty good.
Plus in my list, I have the nightbringer and 15 Wraiths in tow. Not too shabby for turn 2 plus if I can get a 3 on the d3, nightbringer has a guaranteed turn 2 charge also. Am liking this a lot
I had another game last night where I learnt a lot. The main takeaways for me were:
1) We can bring a decent amount of anti-tank if we want.
2) Doomsday Arks are very good all round units.
3) In 8th edition things die fast.
My list:
Orikan
Anrakyr
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x Heavy Deatroyers
T Stalker w/ HGCs DDA DDA Anni Barge
Anni Barge
Orks:
Gazgul
2x 30 Boys
2x Battlewagons, each containing 10x Flash Gitz and 10x Lootas.
Shock Attack chap.
The Orks went first and those Battlewagons were ridiculous. They move 12" and the units inside count as stationary for shooting!! I lost 1 Anni barge, the Stalker and a whole unit of 10 Gauss Immortals before my first turn! We all agreed the Necrons were going to lose...
However, in the Necrons 1st turn the DDAs, HDs, Anni Barge and Anrakyrs Tacyon Arrow vaporized one Wagon and reduced the other to 3 wounds! The Tesla Immortals with MWBD slaughtered many an Ork, rendering one of the 30 man mobs ineffective.
The Ork shooting was much less effective from then on, killing the other Anni barge and knocking over a handful of warriors and Immortals a turn. As the remnants of their force got into close range the DDAs really shone. They switched from anti-tank to anti-infantry, moving 12" and using their flayers and low power cannon to hose the Orks.
I'm really liking the DDAs now. Heavy Destroyers do more damage to tanks (this is slighlty offset by the range and durability of the DDA), but taking the Arks mean that the huge amount of points we have to spend on anti-armor are not wasted when faced with hordes.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I had another game last night where I learnt a lot. The main takeaways for me were:
1) We can bring a decent amount of anti-tank if we want.
2) Doomsday Arks are very good all round units.
3) In 8th edition things die fast.
My list:
Orikan
Anrakyr
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x Heavy Deatroyers
T Stalker w/ HGCs DDA DDA Anni Barge
Anni Barge
Orks:
Gazgul
2x 30 Boys
2x Battlewagons, each containing 10x Flash Gitz and 10x Lootas.
Shock Attack chap.
The Orks went first and those Battlewagons were ridiculous. They move 12" and the units inside count as stationary for shooting!! I lost 1 Anni barge, the Stalker and a whole unit of 10 Gauss Immortals before my first turn! We all agreed the Necrons were going to lose...
However, in the Necrons 1st turn the DDAs, HDs, Anni Barge and Anrakyrs Tacyon Arrow vaporized one Wagon and reduced the other to 3 wounds! The Tesla Immortals with MWBD slaughtered many an Ork, rendering one of the 30 man mobs ineffective.
The Ork shooting was much less effective from then on, killing the other Anni barge and knocking over a handful of warriors and Immortals a turn. As the remnants of their force got into close range the DDAs really shone. They switched from anti-tank to anti-infantry, moving 12" and using their flayers and low power cannon to hose the Orks.
I'm really liking the DDAs now. Heavy Destroyers do more damage to tanks (this is slighlty offset by the range and durability of the DDA), but taking the Arks mean that the huge amount of points we have to spend on anti-armor are not wasted when faced with hordes.
I agree on DDA here's what I'm running atm as my starter.
I had them in there at one point. But the more games I see/play with them the more I feel like they aren't needed. The cryptek and lord should be more then enough to keep them around for a few turns
Overlord with void blade (i think i can take it maybe)
Night bringer
Necron warriors 10
Immortals Gauss 5
Wraiths 3
Monolith
its probably not a good list. (but its what i have and what i want for a soul storm list) i cant fit the Staff of light or the war scythe which bums me out.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: A vitally important question that everyone needs to weigh in on with maths and examples:
Tesla or Gauss for the underslung weapon on an Anni Barge?
From my games tesla all the way. It is complimentary in strength and range and also means no -1 to hit if you move. Indeed, that new 12" move makes them great for kitting or relocating so guns that don't get penalized are golden.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I had another game last night where I learnt a lot. The main takeaways for me were:
1) We can bring a decent amount of anti-tank if we want.
2) Doomsday Arks are very good all round units.
3) In 8th edition things die fast.
My list:
Orikan
Anrakyr
20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
3x Heavy Deatroyers
T Stalker w/ HGCs DDA DDA Anni Barge
Anni Barge
Orks:
Gazgul
2x 30 Boys
2x Battlewagons, each containing 10x Flash Gitz and 10x Lootas.
Shock Attack chap.
The Orks went first and those Battlewagons were ridiculous. They move 12" and the units inside count as stationary for shooting!! I lost 1 Anni barge, the Stalker and a whole unit of 10 Gauss Immortals before my first turn! We all agreed the Necrons were going to lose...
However, in the Necrons 1st turn the DDAs, HDs, Anni Barge and Anrakyrs Tacyon Arrow vaporized one Wagon and reduced the other to 3 wounds! The Tesla Immortals with MWBD slaughtered many an Ork, rendering one of the 30 man mobs ineffective.
The Ork shooting was much less effective from then on, killing the other Anni barge and knocking over a handful of warriors and Immortals a turn. As the remnants of their force got into close range the DDAs really shone. They switched from anti-tank to anti-infantry, moving 12" and using their flayers and low power cannon to hose the Orks.
I'm really liking the DDAs now. Heavy Destroyers do more damage to tanks (this is slighlty offset by the range and durability of the DDA), but taking the Arks mean that the huge amount of points we have to spend on anti-armor are not wasted when faced with hordes.
Thanks for the report, really interesting, perhaps easier-to-kill Anni barges means the DDAs are left alone a turn or two longer, to do their work undisturbed
Why do we put Zahndrekh in a Ghost Ark for the Deceiver Bomb anyway?
If we hope for the re-roll for the deceiver to port at least 2 units we could port Zahndrekh and some Warriors or Immortals. He can then buff those infantry with MWBD and Transient Madness. The infantry can definitely get into rapid fire range. Zahndrekh will be, let's round up, 13" away. Even if he doesn't advance and shoots his staff without penalty he will end up 8" away from the enemy. Enough so that Oberyn and his Lychguards can ghostwalk to within 2" of the enemy, making that charge a sure thing.
We lose: The Ghost Ark's fire power. Zahndrekh in melee. We gain: Buffed up infantry.
It's a lot cheaper, too.
I am a bit afraid of my main enemy who will play Astra Militarum. We will start with pretty low point games but I know he already has a Manticore, a Basilisk and a Wyvern ready. How can we best deal with hidden vehicles like that? A deceiver bomb is a bit to expensive for low point games and I don't really see anything that can quickly deal with those. Some regular, not bomb, Deceiver shenanigans might help and a squad of 10 flayed ones can put a surprising amount of wounds on a 7T vehicle, but relying on a 9 for your charge roll seems a tad risky. Any ideas?
Edit:
torblind wrote: Thanks for the report, really interesting, perhaps easier-to-kill Anni barges means the DDAs are left alone a turn or two longer, to do their work undisturbed
Just about any battle report I've seen them in those Annihilation Barges ended up being the first thing to go. I guess you could take them as distraction barges? They aren't that expensive.
Malygon wrote: Why do we put Zahndrekh in a Ghost Ark for the Deceiver Bomb anyway?
If we hope for the re-roll for the deceiver to port at least 2 units we could port Zahndrekh and some Warriors or Immortals. He can then buff those infantry with MWBD and Transient Madness. The infantry can definitely get into rapid fire range. Zahndrekh will be, let's round up, 13" away. Even if he doesn't advance and shoots his staff without penalty he will end up 8" away from the enemy. Enough so that Oberyn and his Lychguards can ghostwalk to within 2" of the enemy, making that charge a sure thing.
We lose: The Ghost Ark's fire power. Zahndrekh in melee. We gain: Buffed up infantry.
It's a lot cheaper, too.
I am a bit afraid of my main enemy who will play Astra Militarum. We will start with pretty low point games but I know he already has a Manticore, a Basilisk and a Wyvern ready. How can we best deal with hidden vehicles like that? A deceiver bomb is a bit to expensive for low point games and I don't really see anything that can quickly deal with those. Some regular, not bomb, Deceiver shenanigans might help and a squad of 10 flayed ones can put a surprising amount of wounds on a 7T vehicle, but relying on a 9 for your charge roll seems a tad risky. Any ideas?
You do it for the extra range, protection (harder to kill the Ghost Ark than Warriors, generally), and the fact that it still works even if you roll a 1 for Deceiver. It also allows you to cover a larger area - if you go second and the opponent spreads out, being able to disembark 3" away from any point on the Ghost Ark plus move means your Lychguard have a massive section of the board that they're nearly guaranteed to charge into.
Though I'm not sure about the whole thing anymore. Is it amusing? Totally, a T1 charge with Warscythes is awesome. But... they still suffer after that. If they get tarpitted (hello Conscripts, Boyz, Termagants, Brimstones, Cultists, Scarabs, etc), that's a lot of points that you're out for a few turns. Screening units are going to be a big thing in most lists for this exact reason - lots of armies now can just blast out T1 Alpha Strikes or insanely quick (T2 with little issue) melee pushes. While we won't have a terrible time clearing out those types of units with Tesla and massed Flayers, it's still going to be quite common to just put a stopper on that sort of thing.
Not to mention once you kill that first unit, everything else is going to be spreading out, and Lychguard aren't known for their ability to keep up with the flow of battle that easily. Especially if, say, the unit you charge either dies or Falls Back and then they light up the Lychguard with very little problem. T5 W2 3+ is tough against small arms fire, but Plasma and Autocannons and things of that nature will cut them down without a whole lot of problem.
I dunno. I'm just seeing a lot of the same weaknesses as before. I need to play a game or three with them to get a feel for the state of the game. If this was 7th and we suddenly had a way to nearly guarantee a T1 charge with the Lychguard, I'd say it wasn't that great given the prevalence of BatCo, Scatbikes, and Deathstars. Nowadays, maybe it's not as big of a deal given those are dead, and they can actually fulfill their job. Depends a lot on what other armies bring, honestly.
Overlord with void blade (i think i can take it maybe)
Night bringer
Necron warriors 10
Immortals Gauss 5
Wraiths 3
Monolith
its probably not a good list. (but its what i have and what i want for a soul storm list) i cant fit the Staff of light or the war scythe which bums me out.
Hmm night bringer might be a bit heavy for that points level. It might be doable, but you're putting a lot of points into two big units and not a lot of bodies.
With the new RP system having ablative wounds is a good thing.
Overlord with void blade (i think i can take it maybe) Night bringer Necron warriors 10 Immortals Gauss 5 Wraiths 3 Monolith
its probably not a good list. (but its what i have and what i want for a soul storm list) i cant fit the Staff of light or the war scythe which bums me out.
Hmm night bringer might be a bit heavy for that points level. It might be doable, but you're putting a lot of points into two big units and not a lot of bodies. With the new RP system having ablative wounds is a good thing.
Thats kinda what i was thinking.
im kinda depending on deep striking that monolith and ass blasting the crap out of whatever tanks/high T things they might have then possibly come out with the immortals to sweep up. walking the warriors up with the night brining and lord. i could probably use the wraiths to go objective grab. but i dont know what to really expect at 1k.
i could drop the wraiths for a big blob of scarabs. HMM my points look off i needa redoo it
You never want to charge with JUST Lychguard. Always gotta support them. Ghost Ark is a bit more fire to add to Zahndrekh and the C'tan, but you should go with as much as you can.
If you bring 20 Warriors instead of Lychguard you'll be able to put out a punishing number of shots right in rapidfire range. When you get return fired upon, you'll have a Ghost Ark (and maybe a Cryptek who was embarked) to help keep your blob alive.
I feel the deceiver/monolith trickery should be reserved for getting big blobs of warriors into rapid fire range ASAP. A deceiver/monolith combo will transport 2x 20 man blobs into rapid fire range reliably, and on a 3 it gets a GA with a cryptek in it to start protecting them quicker. I'm trying this out on Sunday, will let you guys know how it goes.
Yeah I think the Deceiver is better with lots of Infantry. The Deathstar is great but a bit all in, plopping big Warrior units or even in-cover Immortal units down much further up the table than normal is probably better.
Also it should work wonders for board control, 2-3 small units of scarabs, blades or even wraiths could buzz around grabbing objectives while everliving warriors are in his face
Klowny wrote: A deceiver/monolith combo will transport 2x 20 man blobs into rapid fire range reliably, and on a 3 it gets a GA with a cryptek in it to start protecting them quicker.
Are you getting two 20 man units in via two Monoliths brought up the Grand Illusion?
Because, yeah, that's going to be a hell of a lot of firepower, but it's also going to cost 846 points for just the Deceiver, 20 Warriors and a single Monolith. Double the Monoliths and Warriors and you're already at 1467 (and that's without including a Cryptek in a Ghost Ark).
Perhaps a couple Night Scythes might be better. Both accomplish the same job, only with less quality AP-2 shooting, but also significantly cheaper.
Just one monolith, gate one blob in with that, on a 2 the second blob comes and on a 3 the GA with cryptek is all ported in by the deciever, otherwise it rushes up the board. The monolith will soak alot of damage from the other side, leaving the warriors relatively safe in comparison to a night scythe imo
Not sure how I'd feel about leaving a single Warrior blob on the other side of the table if you roll a 1. At least with them coming in via Night Scythe you'd be able to get them up there quickly if the Grand Illusion roll fails.
Hmm, two Night Scythes are only like 30 points cheaper than one Monolith.
What option has better damage output vs survivability?
At bare minimum you might be able to take some Flayed Ones or Deathmarks to deepstrike in the same turn to help screen for the Warriors + Monolith to keep them from being charged.
I do wonder how the new tomb board will play when forgeworld launches their book. Will it keep all of the prior shenanigans for weapon mount for pylon /mono, teleport hub (to give us an unbrakable gateway), board wide ++, couple hard buildings,
Trying to get my arms around deceiver bombs with monoliths, I get the general idea, deceiver redeploys the monolith before turn 1, and on turn 1 the monolith portals in a unit. However I'm having a hard time figuring out a comp that can use that trick effectively. placing a monolith outside of 12" and then a 3" "Disembark" still means a 9" charge. That leaves the obvious choice (scythe guard) in a bad place. So it has to be rod wielding praetorians, because they can at least do something useful even if they don't make the charge.
It also seems less than ideal to use a monolith, because it will probably be your only portal, and since it's in the enemy's face it could get wasted before it gets a chance to portal in your reserves.
A possible refinement I'm kicking around is taking two night scythes instead of a single monolith, it's actually cheaper, gets you more throughput, and with a command point there is only a 1 in 9 chance the deceiver will fail to put them both on top of your enemy.
Grimgold wrote: Trying to get my arms around deceiver bombs with monoliths, I get the general idea, deceiver redeploys the monolith before turn 1, and on turn 1 the monolith portals in a unit. However I'm having a hard time figuring out a comp that can use that trick effectively. placing a monolith outside of 12" and then a 3" "Disembark" still means a 9" charge. That leaves the obvious choice (scythe guard) in a bad place. So it has to be rod wielding praetorians, because they can at least do something useful even if they don't make the charge.
It also seems less than ideal to use a monolith, because it will probably be your only portal, and since it's in the enemy's face it could get wasted before it gets a chance to portal in your reserves.
A possible refinement I'm kicking around is taking two night scythes instead of a single monolith, it's actually cheaper, gets you more throughput, and with a command point there is only a 1 in 9 chance the deceiver will fail to put them both on top of your enemy.
Praetorians can't use the Monolith's Eternity Gate since they don't have a dynasty.
That comes to 1457.
It brings a lot of diverse shooting that SHOULD be good to decimate most things they encounter.
Tons of redundancy. Whatever doesn't get brought up by Grand Illusion gets dropped off the next turn to help mop up.
I'm thinking about throwing in some Flayed Ones to act as a screen for the shooters, as they don't need help to appear where needed.
Could probably fill out the rest of the army with Tomb Blades and Heavy Destroyers to make a decent Speed Cron list.
The goal of the below list is to short range firefight alpha strike.
20 man blob and immortals deploy into tomb world with the cryptek, 10 man warrior squad in the ghost ark. First turn everything but the wraiths and the ten man warrior squad open up, Second turn everything is on them, and hopefully I've carved a big enough chunk out of them that I can turn and deal with the rest of their army.
That comes to 1457.
It brings a lot of diverse shooting that SHOULD be good to decimate most things they encounter.
Tons of redundancy. Whatever doesn't get brought up by Grand Illusion gets dropped off the next turn to help mop up.
I'm thinking about throwing in some Flayed Ones to act as a screen for the shooters, as they don't need help to appear where needed.
Could probably fill out the rest of the army with Tomb Blades and Heavy Destroyers to make a decent Speed Cron list.
The idea is then to re-roll to get as many night scythes in as possible? Can the list stand on its own even if Deceiver gets only one unit up?
That comes to 1457.
It brings a lot of diverse shooting that SHOULD be good to decimate most things they encounter.
Tons of redundancy. Whatever doesn't get brought up by Grand Illusion gets dropped off the next turn to help mop up.
I'm thinking about throwing in some Flayed Ones to act as a screen for the shooters, as they don't need help to appear where needed.
Could probably fill out the rest of the army with Tomb Blades and Heavy Destroyers to make a decent Speed Cron list.
I'm not sure 20 Immortals, 10 Deathmarks and 3 NSs will do enough damage to some armies to be able to survive the retaliation. In every game I have played I have imagined how a D-bomb alpha strike would have done against the armies I have faced. 2 of the four armies I faced only had 5-6 drops so would have gone first against most D-bombs (depending who makes the first drop). That's very bad. The Tyranid army I faced would probably have appreciated free delivery on it's food order. 60 gaunts and 20 stealers would be hard to chew through, nevermind the pair of Hive Tyrants, 3 Fexes and assorted medium bugs. Quick maths tells me that 30 Immortals will just about kill 20 stealers. One unit of 30 gaunts could engage 3 units of 10 Necrons in combat. There was also a SoBMSU army with many Transports, you might drop one or two Imolators with that firepower.
Obviously you still have 500 pts to play with. 3 HDs and some Flayed ones will help somewhat.
Our characters are such great force multipliers that when you throw your infantry out without them they are really going out half cocked.
Basically we have to figure out: do we want to hang back and wait to see how things might come to us, or try to cause damage as soon as possible.
I was leaning towards sooner.
With three Night Scythes I was hoping at least two would get up there. That's 40 S5 AP-2 and 16 (Tesla) S7 AP- shots. Not exactly devastating, but would certainly hurt.
If going with 2x 20 Warriors instead of Immortals would it work out better? The price would be dramatically increased, though. Probably wouldn't be able to bring else in support.
Is quantity over quality really the way we need to play now?
Warriors are good becasue at 20 wounds a unit they are probably more likely to get there reanimation rolls. not sure if they would do better than Immortals for the points though.
The problem I have always found, (in every edition) when trying to write Necron lists that teleport straight into rapids, is that we don't do enough damage. We pay for the durability of our units so the firepower per point is always lower than other armies. Glass cannon type units will always do better at alpha strikes because they can eliminate enemies so that there is no retaliation, or at least kill their own points cost so that it doesnt matter if they die. The maths shows that 510 pts of immortals only kill 240 pts of stealers. Necrons are designed to kill slowly and die slowly, not something that lends itself to alpha strikes.
In this edition in particular, the way reanimation works means that we don't want to be close enough to the enemy that they will be able to focus fire on one unit. Later in the game, when your opponent doesn't have the killing power to wipe whole units we can get closer.
That's fine though. Alpha strikes are more of an Eldar thing, and what self respecting Necron would want to be like an Eldar?
I think the best path for necrons is to capitalize on their strength - attrition. Stack as many ways of buffing RP as possible, to ensure that you win trades just by outlasting the enemy. So I'm talking Spyders, crypteks, arks, orbs, blobs of warriors, etc.
I've found that there is a tipping point in games now. When you get to the stage where your opponent can't kill more crons than you get back every turn, what might have been a narrow victory turns into a steamrolling.
Too true, that's why I'm not keen on these all in Alpha strike lists, they just don't seem to be set up to win against a decent opposing army that is aware of it.
In saying that I think you can build a really durable phalanx of guys with Necrons, but you do need some way to project force when needed. You want to take out critical stuff so it gets to the point where they can't stop your RP rolls from taking over the game. I think the Deciever is useful for that, Nightbringer is also good in a phalanx and great against monsters.
I really like the Tesla Immortals+ Overlord combo, I think that's a magic unit, not only does it do damage, but it moves fast at 6"+D6". That can keep pace with other fast units like the C'Tan, Triarch stalkers, etc.
So slow attrition is our thing, then.
Oh well, guess I can put all my Deathmarks, Wraiths, Preatorians, etc. (basically anything that's not a Warrior, Ghost Ark, or generic Royal Court member) back on the shelf.
...
God that's going to be depressingly boring to play.
Now to find the perfect balance of stuff on the board and things that buff them.
Attrition does not mean lack of mobility. Remember that necrons used to be able to teleport around the field, something that GW has apparently forgotten, and even in 3rd ed necrons had long ranged, mobile options. Attrition just means the enemy dies faster than necrons do.
skoffs wrote: So slow attrition is our thing, then.
Oh well, guess I can put all my Deathmarks, Wraiths, Preatorians, etc. (basically anything that's not a Warrior, Ghost Ark, or generic Royal Court member) back on the shelf.
...
God that's going to be depressingly boring to play.
Now to find the perfect balance of stuff on the board and things that buff them.
I think we still need some of the fast units that are able to operate independently for objective taking. We can make a very solid phalanx but it is slow and has to stick together to stay in range of our 3" auras. Best case scenario is probably that your phalanx finishes the game in the middle of the board mostly intact. You could go super cheap and use 3 bases of Scarabs but I think Wraith or Pretorians will be needed for when they have to fight over the objective.
A standard rounded Necron list will probably have 3-4 units of Warriors/Immortals/Lychguard supported by 2-3 HQs. Then some long range fire support from DDAs or HDs and a couple of units of something like Wraith, Pretorians or scarabs to fight over the objectives on the flanks.
I'm sure there will be some successful builds that look nothing like that but that's a solid place to start.
EDIT: As far as the phalanx being boring I have to disagree. In my games that has been the most interesting element of the list due to the interactions between the HQs and various units. Zandrek and Oberyn VS assault armies is a lot of fun, dishing out buffs and having units teleport short distances going in and out of combat.
but as mentioned, this list is made purely against my friend's Tau, so it's very biased - I'll have to buy more models in order to make an all-round army (generic Overlord, Warrior Ark Phalanx and Start Collecting will be next targets I guess, to get a good amount of Warriors, backed up with Ghost Ark (I only have one model, so flying gun aka Doomsday Ark time xd)
