One Cryptek between two Warrior blocks, with the Lord in the Ghost Ark scooting back and forth where needed to replenish guys until it is inevitably popped.
...
Generally i try create army without spend point on teleport and other tactical move. I try to max army power.
I am big fan of iluminor szeras and even imhotek in new edition. Their shooting power is awesome bonus, and compare to their prices - imhotek is overlord + 1,5 destroyer with great tactic ability to soft some unit where needed, iluminor is like a cryptek combined with heavy destroyer (only worse againts S8, and 9 compare to HD - and most common vehicles are T6).
Anrakyr is not so good IMHO you realy dont want fight cc with necron infantry. Same with lychguard too slow and static. I am not fan of tesla power, gauss is fantastic. This edition is a lot of about lowering AS and -2AP from gaus blaster is fantastic. Stalker and DDA are also static they start to be less efective if they move, So IMHO 3 HD are far away better: can move and shoot easily, can start hidden a compare of DDA more killy. 3 shots with reroll 1ś to hit is great. I mostly use MWBD on sure hits with HD, and buffing of tesla immportals is only good versus low AS hordes armies. Good player will never allow your 24" range immortals hit his core low AS units.
And you need more long range heavy weapons - one DDA and iluminor is not enough. Vehicles are everywhere :-D
In my last game Nigbringer was absolutely beast. He atacks from second rank like hammer when my phalanx of warriors or scarabs are anvil. Against small (SM mostly) units is absolutely OP.
I am big fan of iluminor szeras and even imhotek in new edition. Their shooting power is awesome bonus, and compare to their prices - imhotek is overlord + 1,5 destroyer with great tactic ability to soft some unit where needed, iluminor is like a cryptek combined with heavy destroyer (only worse againts S8, and 9 compare to HD - and most common vehicles are T6).
Anrakyr is not so good IMHO you realy dont want fight cc with necron infantry. Same with lychguard too slow and static. I am not fan of tesla power, gauss is fantastic. This edition is a lot of about lowering AS and -2AP from gaus blaster is fantastic. Stalker and DDA are also static they start to be less efective if they move, So IMHOHD are far away better: can move and shoot easily, can start hidden a compare of DDA more killy. 3 shots with reroll 1ś to hit is great. I mostly use MWBD on sure hits with HD, and buffing of tesla immportals is only good versus low AS hordes armies. Good player will never allow your 24" range immortals hit his core low AS units.
And you need more long range heavy weapons - one DDA and iluminor is not enough. Vehicles are everywhere :-D
In my last game Nigbringer was absolutely beast. He atacks from second rank like hammer when my phalanx of warriors or scarabs are anvil. Against small (SM mostly) units is absolutely OP.
Re Anrakyr and Lychguard (not necessarily together): Have you fought any assault heavy armies? You might not want to fight in cc with Necron infantry but you're not going to be given the choice. You don't want to invest too heavily in CC units in the phalanx, because they won't do a lot vs shooty armies, but you still need to be prepared to receive waves of gaunts and orks. Anrakyr has his TA and MWBD to use vs shooting armies and the lychguard protect the HQs from snipers and witchfires.
I have had the opposite experience to you with my Immortals- At 24" Tesla with MWBD feels ridiculous and the Gauss does next to nothing. I'm going to keep running both though as Gauss definitely fills a role.
be carefull with rerolls, all rerolls should be RAW used before any modifiers, rule book page 178 (left side, top), use it when someone is shooting on our flyers.
necron abilities where can be problems are only lord and varguard obyron - cant reroll failed morale test againts negative modifiers - example: you have ld 10, you lost morale by 4 and you are in some aura lowering your ld by 2 - so you need roll 4 or lower - but when you roll 5 or 6 you cant reroll it cos the -2 LD modifer process after rerolls.
Re Anrakyr and Lychguard (not necessarily together): Have you fought any assault heavy armies? You might not want to fight in cc with Necron infantry but you're not going to be given the choice. You don't want to invest too heavily in CC units in the phalanx, because they won't do a lot vs shooty armies, but you still need to be prepared to receive waves of gaunts and orks. Anrakyr has his TA and MWBD to use vs shooting armies and the lychguard protect the HQs from snipers and witchfires.
I have had the opposite experience to you with my Immortals- At 24" Tesla with MWBD feels ridiculous and the Gauss does next to nothing. I'm going to keep running both though as Gauss definitely fills a role.
Agaisnt heavy assault armies is our best friend high mobility. My core phalanx is usually small 2*10 warriors + 5-10 immortal - rest poitns is in high moblie units - scarabs, wraith, praetorians, destroyers and tomb blades. When you meet 200 hormagaunts you have no chance wit slow army. Even fall back will not save. TA is 1 use only and MWBD is nice bonus for 1 unit but against big horde this will not save you.
Agaisnt heavy assault armies is our best friend high mobility. My core phalanx is usually small 2*10 warriors + 5-10 immortal - rest poitns is in high moblie units - scarabs, wraith, praetorians, destroyers and tomb blades. When you meet 200 hormagaunts you have no chance wit slow army. Even fall back will not save. TA is 1 use only and MWBD is nice bonus for 1 unit but against big horde this will not save you.
It seems we are running quite different lists, I haven't tried speed crons yet. With a phalanx of a few min size units you're not going to want to spend points on extra support.
Don't underestimate the ability of a well supported phalanx to take a charge though. 200 gaunts is a rather extreme example and I don't think it would do very well against 4 full size units with character support, due to not all being able to attack at once (they would win by swarming the objectives).
As an example: I had a phalanx of 20 Warriors, 2x 10 Immortals + 6 Lychguard supported by Orikan, Zandrek and Oberyn (they weren't all at full strength). They were assaulted by 10 stealers, a Broodlord, 5x Warriors, The Swarmlord and about a dozen Gaunts all in the same turn. Two turns (and a couple of additional Carnifexes) later only the swarmlord remained, non of the Necron units were wiped. Orikans 5++ bubble and fancy footwork from the Ghostwalk mantle made it a much tougher fight than the Nids expected.
Anecdotal of course but I think the maths supports it.
skoffs wrote: So slow attrition is our thing, then.
Oh well, guess I can put all my Deathmarks, Wraiths, Preatorians, etc. (basically anything that's not a Warrior, Ghost Ark, or generic Royal Court member) back on the shelf.
...
God that's going to be depressingly boring to play.
Now to find the perfect balance of stuff on the board and things that buff them.
I mean don't get me wrong - it's good but once a unit dies, all of your RP are gone. Good players can and will play around this. Sure maybe most lists can't delete an entire unit in a single turn (but some definitely can) and the big deal is going to be morale at the end of the phase. Yes necron morale is great, but if you lost 15 or so, the rest of the squad is gone unless you use 2 CP. (thankfully troop heavy lists will have tons of CP to throw around, but still eventually you'll run out)
Even though you're pumping out 40 shots a squad, that's only 9 wounds on T5-7 and 4.5 wounds on T8, which they save at -1, so likely a 4+. Now, that is 13 saves vs T4 and 18 saves vs T3 and below, but I'm just not really all that impressed to think that warriors for days can take on everything the 40k universe has to offer, even with a 5++ vs shooting. A couple multi-assaults and their day is just ruined. They won't die, but offensive output = gone.
I'm actually trying to work out a wraithwing list (will still have a single compulsory blob of 20 warriors plus their friends Orikan and unnamed overlord in a GA) but I'm talking 15 Wraiths, both shards and 10 scythe guard. Who said necrons had to bring guns?
Even though you're pumping out 40 shots a squad, that's only 9 wounds on T5-7 and 4.5 wounds on T8, which they save at -1, so likely a 4+. Now, that is 13 saves vs T4 and 18 saves vs T3 and below, but I'm just not really all that impressed to think that warriors for days can take on everything the 40k universe has to offer, even with a 5++ vs shooting. A couple multi-assaults and their day is just ruined. They won't die, but offensive output = gone.
For T5-7 i take lychguard with warscate and nightbringer. Troops are for less then T4 and durability.
Oh me too! I just meant that I think some people are hailing warriors as the only thing you need (the fact that silver tide can actually work pretty well is pretty cool IMO, but I think other units are pretty necessary too)
I disagree with the idea that we are a slow burn army that wins by attrition, being tough should make us aggressive, not defensive. We also have some of the best infantry weapons in the game, so we can win short ranged firefights.
Grimgold wrote: I disagree with the idea that we are a slow burn army that wins by attrition, being tough should make us aggressive, not defensive. We also have some of the best infantry weapons in the game, so we can win short ranged firefights.
I cant think of any reason why you wouldn't want to orbital drop kick in monoliths and other tough strong things in quickly and lay waste to everything underneath.
deceiver sounds hilarious though you should probably be very careful you dont get seized or go second. (i think)
Grimgold wrote: Deceivers redeploy happens after seize, so he won't leave you hanging in the breeze. Getting seized on is less than ideal, but it's manageable.
Ah neat.
What ya guys think about the monolith as a gun platform?
Grimgold wrote: Deceivers redeploy happens after seize, so he won't leave you hanging in the breeze. Getting seized on is less than ideal, but it's manageable.
Ah neat.
What ya guys think about the monolith as a gun platform?
Its not great. Not nearly enough shots. Its always been like that, even in 3rd ed. The only reason why it was so special back then was because it was the only source of ranged AoE in the necron army.
I was thinking about builds this morning, since I have a game tonight.
I think the issue is that we don't have a power unit or combo. We have above-average stuff and some tricks, but we don't have a unit or crushing star to build an army around. A lot of armies are built around that something that's like, "once this gets in range I'm in a good spot". This used to be Deathstars, or Riptide Wing, or Drop Cents or whatever. Those being gone in 8th is nice. But you still see these builds with like Ravenwing Darkshoud/Sammael/Black Knight stars, or having a Knight or 3 or something like that. Building your army around one or so really powerful units that can control a game once they get going.
Necrons don't have that. Wraithstar is tough and fast, but we don't have a killy core to go with it and do the punching. Lychguard are fairly choppy, but have a suite of downsides and require a looot to get going. Destroyers are pretty shooty, but are prohibitively expensive and aren't generalist enough shooting, you want to remove or at least heavily cripple at least one unit per turn.
While being slightly harder to grind down than average is great, a truly strong list has at least one, maybe two power options to just start removing things. At the end of the day, you can't score objectives unless you've killed the baddies off of it, and you don't get kill points that well by cutting down a bit at a time.
So what are our power units? Well... Scytheguard with the teleport are pretty good, but again, very noteworthy downsides. Our characters are pretty punchy, but slow other than the DLord and not cheap enough to spam. C'tan are killer, but price again makes it a bit difficult and one by itself doesn't do much just due to number of attacks per price.
Really you want something like Assault Terminators or TWC for melee, things that are tough with good invuln saves but also really killy. Unfortunately, Lychguard have to pick between the two options. Wraiths are the right amount of tough, but 3 attacks, even at S6, aren't topping the charts in punching.
I suppose you could consider multiple DDArks as a power shooting. If you take 3 (because you're a bad person or something) you can put out a pretty obnoxious amount of shots into anything that needs to die and it'll be hard to wipe out all at once. ABarges and NScythes also put down a fairly nasty amount of bullets, though they struggle on harder targets.
Maybe we move more into a mechanized force that uses Troops/Scarabs/minimal Wraiths to screen and objective grab while our shooty vehicles do the lion's share of the work.
Monolith has a lot going for it, the particle whip being heavy 6 is nice, the flux arcs add a lot of firepower as well, and deep strike is unique on vehicles in its role. The problems are it's expensive, BS 4+, and the portal is for reserves only, which it can't deploy if it deep struck.
It does a lot of things, and you pay for each of them. Since you won't be using all of it's abilities at any given time, it can be inefficient when you use it in a single role. You can get a lot more firepower for it's points, or more/better access to tomb world reserves in other ways.
I guess to give the one line summary, it's flexible but inefficient, and given our current index rules efficiency benefits us more than flexibility.
Grimgold wrote: Monolith has a lot going for it, the particle whip being heavy 6 is nice, the flux arcs add a lot of firepower as well, and deep strike is unique on vehicles in its role. The problems are it's expensive, BS 4+, and the portal is for reserves only, which it can't deploy if it deep struck.
It does a lot of things, and you pay for each of them. Since you won't be using all of it's abilities at any given time, it can be inefficient when you use it in a single role. You can get a lot more firepower for it's points, or more/better access to tomb world reserves in other ways.
I guess to give the one line summary, it's flexible but inefficient, and given our current index rules efficiency benefits us more than flexibility.
Damn. outside of heavy destroyers i dont have access to all the fun stuff well thats what i get for being hellbent on a soul storm army
Honestly, though, what exactly would our "fun stuff" be?
Everything I can think of that might fit that description is either meh in performance or too cost prohibitive to take in any meaningful way.
skoffs wrote: Honestly, though, what exactly would our "fun stuff" be?
Everything I can think of that might fit that description is either meh in performance or too cost prohibitive to take in any meaningful way.
Fun is subjective. I think Flayed Ones are fun, and Characters paired with Shieldguard.
If the army doesn't seem fun anymore, that's not necessarily a bad thing. There are plenty of other forces to try in the game.
Requizen wrote: I was thinking about builds this morning, since I have a game tonight.
I think the issue is that we don't have a power unit or combo. We have above-average stuff and some tricks, but we don't have a unit or crushing star to build an army around. A lot of armies are built around that something that's like, "once this gets in range I'm in a good spot". This used to be Deathstars, or Riptide Wing, or Drop Cents or whatever. Those being gone in 8th is nice. But you still see these builds with like Ravenwing Darkshoud/Sammael/Black Knight stars, or having a Knight or 3 or something like that. Building your army around one or so really powerful units that can control a game once they get going.
Necrons don't have that. Wraithstar is tough and fast, but we don't have a killy core to go with it and do the punching. Lychguard are fairly choppy, but have a suite of downsides and require a looot to get going. Destroyers are pretty shooty, but are prohibitively expensive and aren't generalist enough shooting, you want to remove or at least heavily cripple at least one unit per turn.
While being slightly harder to grind down than average is great, a truly strong list has at least one, maybe two power options to just start removing things. At the end of the day, you can't score objectives unless you've killed the baddies off of it, and you don't get kill points that well by cutting down a bit at a time.
So what are our power units? Well... Scytheguard with the teleport are pretty good, but again, very noteworthy downsides. Our characters are pretty punchy, but slow other than the DLord and not cheap enough to spam. C'tan are killer, but price again makes it a bit difficult and one by itself doesn't do much just due to number of attacks per price.
Really you want something like Assault Terminators or TWC for melee, things that are tough with good invuln saves but also really killy. Unfortunately, Lychguard have to pick between the two options. Wraiths are the right amount of tough, but 3 attacks, even at S6, aren't topping the charts in punching.
I suppose you could consider multiple DDArks as a power shooting. If you take 3 (because you're a bad person or something) you can put out a pretty obnoxious amount of shots into anything that needs to die and it'll be hard to wipe out all at once. ABarges and NScythes also put down a fairly nasty amount of bullets, though they struggle on harder targets.
Maybe we move more into a mechanized force that uses Troops/Scarabs/minimal Wraiths to screen and objective grab while our shooty vehicles do the lion's share of the work.
i dont think this stars will dominate in 8th edition. for example 200 conscripts in catachan mode (harken, comissar etc) with support from basilisk, manticore and wyverns (all indirect shooting) eat this alive, 200-800 lasguns shot is very nasty in 8ed and that what fear me most, We have no real power against this shoting horde armies. 8 edition necron are hard core AS remove army, our biggest chances are against small elite armies and pseudo star. Our warrior change terminators on tactical marines, immortal change tactical marines on guardsmen. Thats our main strength mid range AP shooting. Big hordes and indirect shooting - that especialy cos no chance to hide our damaged units for RP restoration are the worst enemies of necrons in 8th edition. Nightbringer will shatter TWC and all this kind units and HD will destroy dread and vehicle armies. But what you will do with 200 conscripts or 200 orc or 200 hormagaunts ? :-/
Requizen wrote: I was thinking about builds this morning, since I have a game tonight.
I think the issue is that we don't have a power unit or combo. We have above-average stuff and some tricks, but we don't have a unit or crushing star to build an army around. A lot of armies are built around that something that's like, "once this gets in range I'm in a good spot". This used to be Deathstars, or Riptide Wing, or Drop Cents or whatever. Those being gone in 8th is nice. But you still see these builds with like Ravenwing Darkshoud/Sammael/Black Knight stars, or having a Knight or 3 or something like that. Building your army around one or so really powerful units that can control a game once they get going.
Necrons don't have that. Wraithstar is tough and fast, but we don't have a killy core to go with it and do the punching. Lychguard are fairly choppy, but have a suite of downsides and require a looot to get going. Destroyers are pretty shooty, but are prohibitively expensive and aren't generalist enough shooting, you want to remove or at least heavily cripple at least one unit per turn.
While being slightly harder to grind down than average is great, a truly strong list has at least one, maybe two power options to just start removing things. At the end of the day, you can't score objectives unless you've killed the baddies off of it, and you don't get kill points that well by cutting down a bit at a time.
So what are our power units? Well... Scytheguard with the teleport are pretty good, but again, very noteworthy downsides. Our characters are pretty punchy, but slow other than the DLord and not cheap enough to spam. C'tan are killer, but price again makes it a bit difficult and one by itself doesn't do much just due to number of attacks per price.
Really you want something like Assault Terminators or TWC for melee, things that are tough with good invuln saves but also really killy. Unfortunately, Lychguard have to pick between the two options. Wraiths are the right amount of tough, but 3 attacks, even at S6, aren't topping the charts in punching.
I suppose you could consider multiple DDArks as a power shooting. If you take 3 (because you're a bad person or something) you can put out a pretty obnoxious amount of shots into anything that needs to die and it'll be hard to wipe out all at once. ABarges and NScythes also put down a fairly nasty amount of bullets, though they struggle on harder targets.
Maybe we move more into a mechanized force that uses Troops/Scarabs/minimal Wraiths to screen and objective grab while our shooty vehicles do the lion's share of the work.
i dont think this stars will dominate in 8th edition. for example 200 conscripts in catachan mode (harken, comissar etc) with support from basilisk, manticore and wyverns (all indirect shooting) eat this alive, 200-800 lasguns shot is very nasty in 8ed and that what fear me most, We have no real power against this shoting horde armies. 8 edition necron are hard core AS remove army, our biggest chances are against small elite armies and pseudo star. Our warrior change terminators on tactical marines, immortal change tactical marines on guardsmen. Thats our main strength mid range AP shooting. Big hordes and indirect shooting - that especialy cos no chance to hide our damaged units for RP restoration are the worst enemies of necrons in 8th edition. Nightbringer will shatter TWC and all this kind units and HD will destroy dread and vehicle armies. But what you will do with 200 conscripts or 200 orc or 200 hormagaunts ? :-/
I think that's why we have to utilize vehicles. ABarges and NScythes pump out lots of shots to chew through blobs, and the Night Scythe can dump 20 Warriors in Rapid Fire range to chew through them as well. DDArks don't do a lot to them, but they have a lot of wounds and can roll up into Flayer range, and are hard to put down with horde weapons.
Edit: if shooting blobs become a thing, the Obelisk may become a decent pick. Points per shot, it's still a worse buy than ABarges, but way harder to kill and can stand in front of them as a big ol moveblocker.
Aloha fellow Necron players. I come bearing battle reports, and it makes for grim, yet hopeful reading.
Caveat 1: Both I and my opponent brought 7th ed lists. Intentionally, his was Eldar Craftworld, mine was Necron Decurion, roughly balanced by power level.
Caveat 2: I made more than a few tactical errors due to not being able to adjust fast enough to the changes in RP and Armour.
With that having been said, I have not had my clock so thoroughly cleaned in over a decade.
Game 1: Lasted about four turns before we called the game on account of me being down to a handful of immortals and a Deceiver.
Game 2: Lasted one turn in which I advanced, and he blew two thirds of my units off the board.
Game 3: Went to the end of turn five, but was lost on victory points (more on that later)
Here's the big takeaways. Against a balanced all comers list packing enough firepower and someone who knows how to target prioritise, RP is largely irrelevant. Between relatively cheap three model walkers with Bright Lances, Vaul's batteries and viper jetbikes with Starcannon's and shuriken catties, I was watching whole units of destroyers and warriors (the bulk of my models) getting deleted. He understood from turn one how Reanimation protocols works now, and how to ensure you rarely if ever get a real benefit from it.
Two, the psychic phase will do you over worse than you can possibly imagine. Whatever you are thinking, it's worse. Admittedly it was a lucky dice-roll, but when you have a Nightbringer who is on five wounds slain by one lucky full strength Smite from a farseer (there wasn't enough of my army left to block for Nighty-Night man) , you will begin to realise. Once they start casting psychic powers, fully unoposed, with Helms of the Farseer to ignore perils, you will understand. Guide, Doom and Conceal each are devastating when used right.
Pretty depressing reading so far right? Well, here's the hopeful bit. While FootCron is IMO completely dead as an all comers list, there is hope. One four man destroyer squad can easily delete an entire guarding squad once morale is accounted for, and our heavy D's are exactly as nasty against vehicles as you think.
But you will have to play tactically. You will have to deny lines of sight and force them to come to you piecemeal, because you simply cannot stand in the open anymore.
Too many things have negative AP, and as much as you might like to think warriors can stand, they cannot when you're rolling fives, sixes or simply not getting a save against a high number of shots from things like Shuriken Catapults that get -3AP on a six.
The last point is one I didn't appreciate until I saw it on the table, but the five inch movement is absolutely crippling for claiming objecives, and for simply reacting to enemy movement. Eldar are, admittedly, and highly mobile army, but I had no appreciated how ungodly hard it would be to move around the board five inches at a time if I still wanted to shoot anything. What's more, something like an eldar bike with a 24'' gun and a 20'' movement has a threat range that has to be seen to be believed, not to mention it's ability to claim objectives.
Those games will force me to not just rethink my current list, but to rethink how I build lists in the first place. If Necrons are to survive, then we cannot be a one trick pony army, because no matter the trick, it's circumventable.
A lot of the lists posted in this thread are as mono-type as the decurion footsloggers, and I fear you will do just as badly. You need to consider being able to fight troops, and light walkers, and move around the battlefield, and monstrous creatures and heavy vehicles.
Three games and I never put a single wound on his prism tank because I had neither the attention nor firepower to spare from all the stuff that was in my face.
Anyway, that's my opening thoughts on Necrons in 8th. I expect I'll do much better with my V2 list which will reach much deeper into the well of models I own than just warriors, immortals, destroyers, C'tan and HQ's.
The good thing with Necrons is that the internal balance seems to be pretty good. I've made quite a lot of math hammering and when you add the math and special rules together everything seems pretty balanced.
A few things that stod out was:
Scarabs
+ Can take quite a bit of punishment.
+ Do a decent amount of damage.
- Avoid cc specialists and S6 shooting.
= I'm thinking about units of 9 to take out non elite threaths or as tarpits.
Wraiths
+ Pretty good damage output with beamers + charge.
+ Are really tough despite not having RP.
- Avoid elite cc units.
= Either max sized units with beamers or barebone min sized units as chaff.
Tesla Immortals
+ Actually better than gauss in most cases.
= Good in units of 10 or min sized units to fill up troops.
Warriors
+ Warriors at rapid fire range does the most damage of our units point for point.
The more efficient Space marine units usually have 30+% more firepower point for point.
We really don't have any unit that can wipe out enemy units in a single turn so we have to rely on weakening them and surviving. Most things needs to be done in combos so tactics will be really important.
Those games will force me to not just rethink my current list, but to rethink how I build lists in the first place. If Necrons are to survive, then we cannot be a one trick pony army, because no matter the trick, it's circumventable.
A lot of the lists posted in this thread are as mono-type as the decurion footsloggers, and I fear you will do just as badly. You need to consider being able to fight troops, and light walkers, and move around the battlefield, and monstrous creatures and heavy vehicles.
Three games and I never put a single wound on his prism tank because I had neither the attention nor firepower to spare from all the stuff that was in my face.
Anyway, that's my opening thoughts on Necrons in 8th. I expect I'll do much better with my V2 list which will reach much deeper into the well of models I own than just warriors, immortals, destroyers, C'tan and HQ's.
What models/units are you going to bring in the V2 list so you can "stop" the issues you had in the previous list.
Have you only played against Eldar in 8th?
Maybe the list you put together was better suited for 7th rather then 8th?
Did you try to deploy your crons onto objectives via the Deceivers Grand Illusion?
Desubot wrote: I was thinking small units of scarabs would be more useful as objective holders.
just make sure to place the objectives with a wall. makes it nearly impossible to shoot them if you have no LOS.
same with grots but thats a different army
Yes, they are of course really good objective holders and screens to.
I also think that they can be of good use offensively. They will be a lot easier to hide when they advance in large units since you can lump them together unlike in earlier editions.
What models/units are you going to bring in the V2 list so you can "stop" the issues you had in the previous list.
I will be bringing a DDA, A Ghost Ark and a pair of scythes that are modded to be either doom or night as needed, I'm hoping to try them both.
Have you only played against Eldar in 8th?
Yes. Limitations of where we were and what we had with us. With that having been said I expect that the flaws it exposed in terms of movement and survivability will not be unique to facing Eldar
Maybe the list you put together was better suited for 7th rather then 8th?
Did I not say that it was for all intents and purposes a 7th edition Decurion list? If not, I shall go back and correct. Yesterday was more about mastering the ruleset than anything else and given that the rules are not officially out yet, we needed to be somewhat circumspect.
Did you try to deploy your crons onto objectives via the Deceivers Grand Illusion?
I did in the second and third games, in the first I rolled a one (and we elected not to use command points ahead of time given that neither of our armies was built to the 8th force org charts) and instead opted for a more offensive deployment rather than an objective grabbing one. The net result in game 2 was that isolated Necron units get pulve rised and in the third game that the sheer movement speed of the Eldar negated any tactical advantage I could build. I feel like I should restate just how utterly crippling that five inch base move on our troops is for maneuvering purposes against an army with a 7'' base move, ranging all the way up to 20''
I will be bringing a DDA, A Ghost Ark and a pair of scythes that are modded to be either doom or night as needed, I'm hoping to try them both.
Trial and Error is the only way to find out what works. Hopefully your outcome will be better.
Yes. Limitations of where we were and what we had with us. With that having been said I expect that the flaws it exposed in terms of movement and survivability will not be unique to facing Eldar
Well thats true. But just because a list isn't good against Eldar does not mean it wouldn't hold up against Orks, Nurgle, Ad Mech etc. Every army has Pros and Cons and we just got to find a way to make an army/list that can hold up against other armies.
Did I not say that it was for all intents and purposes a 7th edition Decurion list? If not, I shall go back and correct. Yesterday was more about mastering the ruleset than anything else and given that the rules are not officially out yet, we needed to be somewhat circumspect.
You did indeed and it makes sense that you used the list to learn the game before playing it fully. 7th edit. Necrons are different to 8th edit. Necrons so probably better to forget the way 7th played so you can embrace and enjoy 8th edit.
I did in the second and third games, in the first I rolled a one (and we elected not to use command points ahead of time given that neither of our armies was built to the 8th force org charts) and instead opted for a more offensive deployment rather than an objective grabbing one. The net result in game 2 was that isolated Necron units get pulve rised and in the third game that the sheer movement speed of the Eldar negated any tactical advantage I could build. I feel like I should restate just how utterly crippling that five inch base move on our troops is for maneuvering purposes against an army with a 7'' base move, ranging all the way up to 20''
I think that for objects that are on our side should be protects by low number Warriors, Sypders, H.Destroyers, Stalkers, DDA arks. Objects on the opponents side should be targeted by deepstriking and fast units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Scarabs, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks. I like the Idea of deploying a monolith on top of an objective thats mid-table or on my opponents side. It will take a lot of wounds but last long enough to distract my opponent and hopefully get my crons in better positions and good numbers. Our movement is slow af for the majority of the units/models but were better off having our opponent come towards us then have our crons chase them and get picked off 1 by 1. Imo of course.
Caveat 1: Both I and my opponent brought 7th ed lists. Intentionally, his was Eldar Craftworld, mine was Necron Decurion, roughly balanced by power level.
This makes the rest of the battle report null both for bringing a 7th edition list and for using power level as a point system.
Note: I predict that players are going to eventually prove the power level army build system is completely broken.
There are people in my playgroup who are trying to push for the power rules as the norm. An issue is the honor upgrade system because Power is "balanced" at 50% unit upgrades. I know they will attempt to run odd number units to max, meta at will, and do other shenanigans with invisible point upgrades and mods. I think it is funny to paint models for 1,000+ hours and then not have the time to make a complete list...
Edit:
Compare the equipment "upgrade" potential of an equivalent SM and Necron Warrior Unit... that is sort of a joke!
Speaking of lists. i cant find points for other war gears so my list is a little off for now. its under 2k
warscythe overlord
warscythe d lord
10 warriors
5 man ass immortals
5 man ass immortals
night bringer
3 tranny beam wraiths
9 scarab base
9 scarab base
monolith
2 spyders with particle beamers
3 heavy destroyers
once i get book in had i will figure out if i have enough for gloom prisms and res orbs
as it is the plan was to screen up with the scarabs, have the night bringer move up. deep strike the monolith some where in the back field targeting anti tank stuff t2 bring in a unit of immortals to go grab an objective. then figure out the rest of target priorities from there.
Silver Tide versus shooty horde armies probably needs more than one Ghost Ark. The Ark takes RP for the unit to 75%, and doing that to two units a turn is probably what you need to weather the storm of lasgun fire. A second Overlord might be necessary too - I think MWBD on two silver blobs a turn sounds right
From that Silver tide list above I'd probably drop one blob and add a second ghost Ark. I'd like that second Overlord, but I think that list needs the three Crypteks so IDK where I'd get the points. More dakka is probably better than a second buff anyway.
Fenris-77 wrote: Silver Tide versus shooty horde armies probably needs more than one Ghost Ark. The Ark takes RP for the unit to 75%, and doing that to two units a turn is probably what you need to weather the storm of lasgun fire. A second Overlord might be necessary too - I think MWBD on two silver blobs a turn sounds right
From that Silver tide list above I'd probably drop one blob and add a second ghost Ark. I'd like that second Overlord, but I think that list needs the three Crypteks so IDK where I'd get the points. More dakka is probably better than a second buff anyway.
That's what I was talking about when I said we needed to find the best balance of guys and support for guys.
Is it better to use points to give maximum support for Warriors,
Or to use those points to get more Warriors?
An Overlord may give one unit of your guys a +1 to hit, but he costs as much as 10 more guys. What's better, better odds of hitting or more shots? (I'm gonna assume more shots).
A Cryptek + Ghost Ark can increase the chances more guys stand up, but they cost almost as much as 23 more guys. What's better, having more guys be able to stand up, or just straight up having more guys? (again, I'm going to guess the latter).
I will be bringing a DDA, A Ghost Ark and a pair of scythes that are modded to be either doom or night as needed, I'm hoping to try them both.
Trial and Error is the only way to find out what works. Hopefully your outcome will be better.
That is the idea.
Well thats true. But just because a list isn't good against Eldar does not mean it wouldn't hold up against Orks, Nurgle, Ad Mech etc. Every army has Pros and Cons and we just got to find a way to make an army/list that can hold up against other armies.
I think that for objects that are on our side should be protects by low number Warriors, Sypders, H.Destroyers, Stalkers, DDA arks. Objects on the opponents side should be targeted by deepstriking and fast units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Scarabs, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks. I like the Idea of deploying a monolith on top of an objective thats mid-table or on my opponents side. It will take a lot of wounds but last long enough to distract my opponent and hopefully get my crons in better positions and good numbers. Our movement is slow af for the majority of the units/models but were better off having our opponent come towards us then have our crons chase them and get picked off 1 by 1. Imo of course.
While not everyone can field the amount of AP-3 and AP-4 as the Eldar do, I rather expect that had I deep struck a monolith on turn one he would have dropped six bright lances, all the starcannons and the D-Cannon on his wraithlord into it, plus possibly a smite or two and wrecked it in a single turn. It's possible that I'm being overly pessimistic, but I honestly don't feel like I'm overstating how quickly the damage piles on. Doing D6's and D3's and just plain 3's worth of wounds adds up really quickly.
Caveat 1: Both I and my opponent brought 7th ed lists. Intentionally, his was Eldar Craftworld, mine was Necron Decurion, roughly balanced by power level.
This makes the rest of the battle report null both for bringing a 7th edition list and for using power level as a point system.
Note: I predict that players are going to eventually prove the power level army build system is completely broken.
You are of course free to ignore my experiences at your leisure. I only posted it to add to the pile of information available. I look forward to hearing your batreps once 8th formally drops and we can openly play 8th in official venues.
We tried, somewhat, to mitigate the abuses of power levels by playing WYSIWYG, but in that respect the fact that Necrons are not a very flexible army in terms of loadouts was a signficant issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tokhuah wrote: There are people in my playgroup who are trying to push for the power rules as the norm. An issue is the honor upgrade system because Power is "balanced" at 50% unit upgrades. I know they will attempt to run odd number units to max, meta at will, and do other shenanigans with invisible point upgrades and mods. I think it is funny to paint models for 1,000+ hours and then not have the time to make a complete list...
Edit:
Compare the equipment "upgrade" potential of an equivalent SM and Necron Warrior Unit... that is sort of a joke!
You can try what we did, which is 'if playing power levels, stricly enfore WYSIWYG'. It doesn't halt abuses of the system, but it mitigates it somewhat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel like I need to reemphasise this as it didn't come through properly in my last post.
In the previous edition, an AP4 weapon could be largely ignored by immortals, destroyers and other things with a 3+ save. You'd alway get that 3+ save, and if you failed, you immediately rolled RP, and under normal circumstances you had a 50% chance of the model not being removed. If you took ten unsaved wounds on an immortal squad, odds are you wouln't lose the squad. Now, you DO lose the squad, entirely.
Those same weapons, which many armies can field, now give you a 6+ save. This vastly increases the scope of the weapons that can be fired to good effect at units, and because units are removed and don't get a chance to come back till your next turn removing a unit isn't that difficult.
What do you think about new Resuraction Orb? It was so expensive. You must get at least 3 warrior back and it working only after normal RP roll. So with cryptek aura unit must lose at least 12 warrior... With only warrior infrantry it can be hard to use it wisely.
I will be bringing a DDA, A Ghost Ark and a pair of scythes that are modded to be either doom or night as needed, I'm hoping to try them both.
Trial and Error is the only way to find out what works. Hopefully your outcome will be better.
That is the idea.
Well thats true. But just because a list isn't good against Eldar does not mean it wouldn't hold up against Orks, Nurgle, Ad Mech etc. Every army has Pros and Cons and we just got to find a way to make an army/list that can hold up against other armies.
I think that for objects that are on our side should be protects by low number Warriors, Sypders, H.Destroyers, Stalkers, DDA arks. Objects on the opponents side should be targeted by deepstriking and fast units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Scarabs, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks. I like the Idea of deploying a monolith on top of an objective thats mid-table or on my opponents side. It will take a lot of wounds but last long enough to distract my opponent and hopefully get my crons in better positions and good numbers. Our movement is slow af for the majority of the units/models but were better off having our opponent come towards us then have our crons chase them and get picked off 1 by 1. Imo of course.
While not everyone can field the amount of AP-3 and AP-4 as the Eldar do, I rather expect that had I deep struck a monolith on turn one he would have dropped six bright lances, all the starcannons and the D-Cannon on his wraithlord into it, plus possibly a smite or two and wrecked it in a single turn. It's possible that I'm being overly pessimistic, but I honestly don't feel like I'm overstating how quickly the damage piles on. Doing D6's and D3's and just plain 3's worth of wounds adds up really quickly.
Caveat 1: Both I and my opponent brought 7th ed lists. Intentionally, his was Eldar Craftworld, mine was Necron Decurion, roughly balanced by power level.
This makes the rest of the battle report null both for bringing a 7th edition list and for using power level as a point system.
Note: I predict that players are going to eventually prove the power level army build system is completely broken.
You are of course free to ignore my experiences at your leisure. I only posted it to add to the pile of information available. I look forward to hearing your batreps once 8th formally drops and we can openly play 8th in official venues.
We tried, somewhat, to mitigate the abuses of power levels by playing WYSIWYG, but in that respect the fact that Necrons are not a very flexible army in terms of loadouts was a signficant issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tokhuah wrote: There are people in my playgroup who are trying to push for the power rules as the norm. An issue is the honor upgrade system because Power is "balanced" at 50% unit upgrades. I know they will attempt to run odd number units to max, meta at will, and do other shenanigans with invisible point upgrades and mods. I think it is funny to paint models for 1,000+ hours and then not have the time to make a complete list...
Edit:
Compare the equipment "upgrade" potential of an equivalent SM and Necron Warrior Unit... that is sort of a joke!
You can try what we did, which is 'if playing power levels, stricly enfore WYSIWYG'. It doesn't halt abuses of the system, but it mitigates it somewhat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel like I need to reemphasise this as it didn't come through properly in my last post.
In the previous edition, an AP4 weapon could be largely ignored by immortals, destroyers and other things with a 3+ save. You'd alway get that 3+ save, and if you failed, you immediately rolled RP, and under normal circumstances you had a 50% chance of the model not being removed. If you took ten unsaved wounds on an immortal squad, odds are you wouln't lose the squad. Now, you DO lose the squad, entirely.
Those same weapons, which many armies can field, now give you a 6+ save. This vastly increases the scope of the weapons that can be fired to good effect at units, and because units are removed and don't get a chance to come back till your next turn removing a unit isn't that difficult.
Kuguar6 wrote: What do you think about new Resuraction Orb? It was so expensive. You must get at least 3 warrior back and it working only after normal RP roll. So with cryptek aura unit must lose at least 12 warrior... With only warrior infrantry it can be hard to use it wisely.
Which is why you want to use it to bring back destroyers and lychguard. One of those pays for the orb.
Warriors x15
Tesla Immortals x10
Tesla Immortals x10
Heavy Destroyers x3
Doomsday Ark
That's right, double C'tan all day. Thank you 8th.
Highlights include:
I got to go first and got a 3 on the Deceiver, moving the Stalker, a unit of Immortals, the Deceiver, and the Overlord up the field 12" away from one of this Leman Russes.
Bubble wrapping the Cryptek/Nightbringer on my backfield kept them safe from a big Genestealer charge. Tesla Overwatch also wrecked 1/3 of the unit. (5/15). They died immediately after of course, but then the Nightbringer counterattacked for a lot of damage.
Deathmarks dropped a bunch of Plasma Command Scions and a Tempestor Prime, crippling his Alpha Strike. For 100 per min unit, they're stellar in this edition of DS galore. They then went on to drop a Broodlord (Primarch? Whatever) and more Scions later.
Heat Stalker was... ok. Illusioning him forward made him eat a lot of fire, but he survived well, ate a charge, and then went on to pop a couple more models by himself. But I feel like I could have gotten a lot more mileage out of just more foot dudes teleporting forward? Probably depends on the army he's facing.
Overall, extremely fun game. 2 C'tan is probably overkill, but it's cool to see them both on the table, and the redeploy is pretty interesting if nothing else. However, it's hard to justify splitting up the Phalanx, especially if the opponent has Reserves that are going to come in and threaten your now split army. Must be used with caution.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Will my battlescribe android app magically transfer to 8th ed now or do I have to wait / do something?
If your Battlescribe app is up to date, you should just have to refresh your data sources, and it should find the new 8th ed repo without any other work. Mine was just a couple taps.
What do you think, should we make a new thread now that the game's been released, or can we just keep going with this one, updating the title/top so people can find relevant info?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and anyone getting/know what the Forge World books have in store for us?
(let us know as soon, a lot of lists may be hinging on the gaps they can fill for us)
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Will my battlescribe android app magically transfer to 8th ed now or do I have to wait / do something?
If your Battlescribe app is up to date, you should just have to refresh your data sources, and it should find the new 8th ed repo without any other work. Mine was just a couple taps.
They're up for preorder now, available next weekend. So, I'd imagine maybe leaks middle of next week? But FW is a bit different for releases so maybe not (haven't seen any for the current Imperial/Chaos IAs that are coming out tomorrow).
No but seriously,
Someone should really run the numbers to see our buffing units (eg. Overlords, Destroyer Lords, Ghost Arks, Crypteks, T.Stalkers) are worth their points vs just adding equivalent points in guys to your army.
Eg.
An Overlord (119 points) grants MWBD to a unit of 10 Immortals. Would that be more effective than just his point cost in 7 extra Immortals (119 points) adding to the shooting?
A Cryptek and a Ghost Ark (274 points) keep near 20 Warriors. Would they be better than just having an extra 23 Warriors (276 points) on the table in the first place?
A Destroyer Lord (142) hangs with 3 Heavy Destroyers. Would him letting them reroll their 1s to wound be better than just adding another 2 Heavies (150) instead?
etc.
skoffs wrote: No but seriously,
Someone should really run the numbers to see our buffing units (eg. Overlords, Destroyer Lords, Ghost Arks, Crypteks) are worth their points vs just adding equivalent points in guys to your army.
Eg. an Overlord grants MWBD to a unit of 10 Immortals. Would that be more effective than just his point cost in extra Immortals adding to the shooting?
Well, the thing is that Characters are more than flat number changers. You can math out how many points MWBD is worth, but the Overlord is a pretty good beatstick. I've had opponents be more wary about charging because he might Heroically Intervene and cut down things. And then he also makes that unit better in combat, because MWBD also affects their WS.
Likewise, with the Cryptek, you can math out how many models have to roll a 4 before the buff is worth it, but the 5++ makes your dudes even harder to shift, and his Staff of Light makes him an Immortal and a half in shooting plus a decent puncher in melee. 5++ making things not die also makes it harder to die to Morale.
It's a bit more nebulous. I would say we shouldn't spam characters, but at least one Cryptek is probably worth taking, maybe 2 if you're expecting to spread out more, and then figure out what points you have left for HQs. You have to take at least 1, will probably take 2-3 for detachments, so just think from that standpoint. We're not Guard though.
Do you know that characters cant´be target by charging unit when they made Heroic Intervention? Cos charging units can target only enemy units they charge. This make c´tans and especialy night bringer very strong counter against enemy charges. Scarabs protecting c´tan (they are fastets and has fly - so can escape even when suronded by consolidation) are even bigger protecting wall against alfa strike cc armies. He will hit chargers in cc and in our turn fly out. Heroic intervention has so much potentiial in 8 edition. Bad that CCB is not char :-(
Rezolut wrote: Do you know that characters cant´be target by charging unit when they made Heroic Intervention? Cos charging units can target only enemy units they charge. This make c´tans and especialy night bringer very strong counter against enemy charges. Scarabs protecting c´tan (they are fastets and has fly - so can escape even when suronded by consolidation) are even bigger protecting wall against alfa strike cc armies. He will hit chargers in cc and in our turn fly out. Heroic intervention has so much potentiial in 8 edition. Bad that CCB is not char :-(
You can target them. All you need is to be within 12" of the model to declare a charge, even if you can't legally move to it with a 12" roll, so you almost always declare the charge anyway because of what exactly you described.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and anyone getting/know what the Forge World books have in store for us?
(let us know as soon, a lot of lists may be hinging on the gaps they can fill for us)
These are the items from the forge world book
Cron army list / data sheets
Canoptic tomb stalker
" acanthrites
" tomb sentinel
night shroud
sentry pylon
tomb citadel
Tesserae the ark
Kutlakh the world killer
Toholk the blinded
Gauss pylon
Cron war gear / points values
I'm awaiting this book been released as well :/
( so far it seems it's missing the flayed ones and scarabs but hoping the data sheets or army lists will give some rules and or extras for these)
Kuguar6 wrote:So now i can charge without line of sign? For example wraiths can charge through the wall? What with overwatch in that case?
In 7 i must have line of sign to charge.
Correct, you do not need Line of Sight. You can charge around corners or even through walls if you're Infantry type.
Drewtavian wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and anyone getting/know what the Forge World books have in store for us?
(let us know as soon, a lot of lists may be hinging on the gaps they can fill for us)
These are the items from the forge world book
Cron army list / data sheets
Canoptic tomb stalker
" acanthrites
" tomb sentinel
night shroud
sentry pylon
tomb citadel
Tesserae the ark
Kutlakh the world killer
Toholk the blinded
Gauss pylon
Cron war gear / points values
I'm awaiting this book been released as well :/
( so far it seems it's missing the flayed ones and scarabs but hoping the data sheets or army lists will give some rules and or extras for these)
Again, nobody knows. We'll know on the 24th when the book comes out.
I don't think staffs of light are very good, certainly not worth 6 times the cost of a hyperphase sword for what will normally be 1 round of shooting before the thing is dead or in close combat. With a sword an overlord is only 104 points so roughly 6 immortals, 6 and a half if you take a scythe instead, and he buffs 10 tesla immortals to do 30 hits up from 20 unbuffed so he's worth about 5 immortals in shooting. The other 20ish point discrepancy between him and just buying 6 more immortals is surely worth his monster stat line and invulnerable save.
A ghost ark comes with 10 warriors worth of flayer array shooting, so it's kind of down to how often you think you can activate its ability for 50 points. 1 or 2 times probably not worth it, 3+ times probably worth it. So i'd guess if you have at least 2 full warrior blobs you'll be able to trigger it 3+ times or the opponent is dedicating all their shooting toward your cheapest models which is probably fine either way, but if you only have 1 blob or a couple 10-15 size squads that isn't hard for most armies to focus down and make the ark's 50 point tax a waste.
A Cryptek is harder to math hammer out because it's really hard to say what kind of weapons in what quantities you're going to be hit with and your composition matters like immortals with their 3+ save are less likely to need a 5++ because there's very little -3 ap weapons, that kind of thing. I still think staffs of light are bad though so I'd normally go for szeras or orikan if you want one.
Starcannons? You can fit two onto a vyper, a squad of three puts out six shots, Ap-3 Strength 6 (wounding most things on 3's) and doing 3 damage. A single squad of these can delete a three man destroyer unit in one round of only moderately lucky shooting. It's overkill firing these at warriors, but it conveniently ignores their armour entirely.
Shuriken Catapults? Does an Ap-3 shot if you roll a six, essentially modern rending, deletes warriors like there's no tomorrow, especially if guided and god forbid you're doomed to boot.
Shadow Weavers? Same rending as before, 48'' range, a D6 shots amd srength 6. God help you if they brought D cannons on those Vaul's batteries. Stength 10, AP -4 and a D6 wounds a piece.
Did I mention the Str 8 Ap-4 Bright lances yet, which you can carry six of on a three man walker unit that has 18 wounds at T 6 that can walk 12'' a turn and still fire and have an Invulnerable save?
The Eldar have, as their tagline suggests, Firepower matched only by their arrogance, coupled with a very fleet army, a very good psychic palette, even with only three powers. It's why I'm going back to the drawing board to be honest.
I don't charge my HQ into CC, so taking a HPS is just throwing points off of a cliff. Also It only takes two marine deaths to pay for the SoL, and those can be done in our out of melee, so even worst case it will pay for itself.
There are two situations where the ghost ark won't be active, they wiped out your warriors or they didn't shoot your warriors. The second is a little more likely.
But yes, crypteks are for warriors, immortals benefit significantly less from them. The best unit for them is actually destroyers, as the benefit from a +1 to RP is much higher with pricey three wound units.
Also AP 4 weapons became AP -1, AP 3 became -2, and AP 2 became -3, and AP 1 became -4. We are the exception to this because gauss just gave us a flat -1 ap on top of our normal AP.
I've watched a good 12 streams of 8th edition games over the past week and even with screening units and tricks like obyron you are going to find your phalanx taking part in some fight phases, possibly more of those than you will have eligible targets within 12" of the guy that's hiding behind the phalanx in your shooting phase. And to be fair at least some of those 18 points are for the staff of light's melee profile so its not like some great crime to trade the shooting profile you might not even use for 15 points.
skoffs wrote: No but seriously,
Someone should really run the numbers to see our buffing units (eg. Overlords, Destroyer Lords, Ghost Arks, Crypteks, T.Stalkers) are worth their points vs just adding equivalent points in guys to your army.
Eg.
An Overlord (119 points) grants MWBD to a unit of 10 Immortals. Would that be more effective than just his point cost in 7 extra Immortals (119 points) adding to the shooting?
A Cryptek and a Ghost Ark (274 points) keep near 20 Warriors. Would they be better than just having an extra 23 Warriors (276 points) on the table in the first place?
A Destroyer Lord (142) hangs with 3 Heavy Destroyers. Would him letting them reroll their 1s to wound be better than just adding another 2 Heavies (150) instead?
etc.
More models are better than MWBD alone.
However you are required to take, in most cases, at least 2 HQs.
What makes the OL solid is that MWBD also buffs WS and the OL himself is pretty good in CC. With warriors yoù want to eventually end up in rapid fire range and then you will also likely be charged or charge yourself.
A Cryptek is better than an Overlord in the sense that it buffs multiple units, but it does not give them more punch in CC.
You will most likely need to play a few games to get a sense what works for you. I've only played one game of 8th with one OL and no Cryptek (1000p). MWBD was actually very nice to have and both the OL and the Warrior unit he supported ended up in CC and won thanks to MWBD and the OL and his War Scythe.
Oh, and anyone getting/know what the Forge World books have in store for us? (let us know as soon, a lot of lists may be hinging on the gaps they can fill for us)
These are the items from the forge world book
Cron army list / data sheets Canoptic tomb stalker " acanthrites " tomb sentinel night shroud sentry pylon tomb citadel Tesserae the ark Kutlakh the world killer Toholk the blinded Gauss pylon
Yes, we've known WHAT we are getting for a while now, but we don't know what those things do yet.
Requizen wrote: Again, nobody knows. We'll know on the 24th when the book comes out.
"The final two Imperial Armour Index books are available to buy from Forge World right now. [...] If you’ve got any of these models (or you just want to see what they do!) and want rules for them, pick up Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum and Imperial Armour – Index: Xenos from Forge World. Digital copies are also available via Warhammer Digital."
punisher357 wrote: Found this on another thread....space marine player lost to crons
Just as an update. I got fisted by Necrons.
LOL, that made my day. I think the necron list might be a tad horrible, but you know what they say, if it's dumb and it works, it isn't dumb. I can just imagine doom scythes popping a dread apiece, and five annihilation barges is 40 s7 tesla shots on top of 10 gauss cannon shots. Then add some rerolling 1s shenanigans from the stalkers. It's enough volume of fire to make scat bike spam look like amatuer hour. The cherry on top of that is the Marines only anti-vehicle weapons were las cannons, which quantum shielding negates a little less than half the time. That must have been a hilarious battle.
Yep. Quantum Shield spam is freaking legit. In fact, a lot of vehicles in the game can be spammed pretty effectively. I need to break apart my Ghost Ark into a DDArk maybe, but I have a butt ton of Barges, a Stalker, 3 Flyers, and a DDArk besides it. What a time to be alive.
I have a feeling things might have gone the other way if the Necron player hadn't seized.
I don't think I've seen a single 8th Ed. battle report where the seizing player hasn't won.
From now on, I can see it being a case of,
A: "I'll go first."
B: "I rolled a 6 to seize..."
A: "... Well, good game, then."
*both players pack up their models*
I played way more AoS then I played 40K (7th only).
I think the random turn mechanic works fine in AOS, but in 40K, at least in 8th, seizing seems to be so much more random and detrimental to the player who deployed with going first in mind.
Seems like a hyper random way to just lose the game.
DoggieDoo wrote: I played way more AoS then I played 40K (7th only).
I think the random turn mechanic works fine in AOS, but in 40K, at least in 8th, seizing seems to be so much more random and detrimental to the player who deployed with going first in mind.
Seems like a hyper random way to just lose the game.
This is one of the reasons I think the Deciever is an auto include. You don't have to attempt an alpha if you get seized on, you can just use it as a redeploy.
I'm a totally new player to warhammer 40k, and coming week I'll have my first battle. It's with 50 PL, and I'll have to throw in my full collection just to make it to that mark. This will be my list:
1x Overlord with res orb
1x Orikan the Diviner
2x 10 warriors
1x 5 immortals tesla
1x Annihilation Barge with tesla cannon
1x Triarch Stalker with ?
I have no idea what kind of army I'll be facing. Are their any tips for the loadout on the Stalker and the Overlord? And maybe some general remarks to keep in mind?
1x Annihilation Barge with tesla cannon
1x Triarch Stalker with ?
In a list like this I'd normally I'd say drop the Orb, as there's nothing really to use it on... but you're not playing points, meaning it's basically free, so there's no reason not to take it.
Probably just take the Heat Ray on the Stalker, just in case vehicles.
Unit of 20 Warriors would be better than two of 10... but you need three troop units for a Battalion, so *shrug*
I'm a totally new player to warhammer 40k, and coming week I'll have my first battle. It's with 50 PL, and I'll have to throw in my full collection just to make it to that mark. This will be my list:
1x Overlord with res orb
1x Orikan the Diviner
2x 10 warriors
1x 5 immortals tesla
1x Annihilation Barge with tesla cannon
1x Triarch Stalker with ?
I have no idea what kind of army I'll be facing. Are their any tips for the loadout on the Stalker and the Overlord? And maybe some general remarks to keep in mind?
Thanks!
You havent got -3 AP so i will be take Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon for stalker.
I also prefere Illuminor Szeras for cryptek slot for boost troops.
Take warscate for Overlord because new intervention is realy cool.
AB may be too expensive for 50 PL. Think aboute bigger troops squad for MVBD.
Two C'tan, Imotekh, warriors, immortals, pair of scythes, basically v 2 of my list. I ended up playing Eldar because my Dark Eldar opponent had to leave suddenly. Lost again, but made him work for it.
Decided to play ultra-agressive. Rolled a six on the GI, opponent didn't seize, so I dropped the warriors and immortals, Deceiver and Nighbringer right infront of his army and proceeded to gut the center of his infantry formation of Guardians. Aimed the Doom Scythes at his War Walkers, but they fluffed it terribly, while Imotekh and the last unit of warriors ran for a nearby objective, rolled a one and sighed.
My opponent took the oppertunity to remind me that his Vypers could move very far by dropping them behind my line, and the Deceiver whom I had placed behind the Nightbringer took 5 wounds to the face once all the shooting was done, my immortals were down four units and my warriors had two guys left and got charged by the Wraithlord. while my immortals got charged by his wraithblades. The nightbringer Heroically Intervened, I rolled really well on my save and the Ap-4 fists accounted for first blood.
My second turn I only brought back two warriors and two immortals. Imotekh let loose the STORM, killed a war Walker outright and then proceeded to proc onto a warlook and the last dude of one of the guardian squads killing them both.The deceiver and the Nightbringer vented their fury on the Vypers, killing two and wounding one. The doomscythes continued to achieve nothing, this time firing at a Vauls Support battery
My opponent promply swung virtually everything left in his army round to the side, a single full powered Smite wiped out the four warriors, the remaining Viper nailed the Deceiver, and everything else put 6 wounds onto the Nightbringer, while his Wraithblades slowly cut the immortals to pieces.
In turn three I forced my nightbringer as far over as I could, then fired everything to clear away the remaining guardian unit to allow the nightbringer to slay his farseer, but he took a single wound in the process, while the immortals were finally slain by the Waithblades and the Scythes swanned off the board to return later.(we were using the advanced Aerial rules)
In his turn a single Warlock smite killed the Nightbringer, the Wraithblades fell back allowing everything to open up on my final squad of warriors, and we called it at the end of turn 3 with Imotekh and two scythes surviving on my side, one Vyper, a warlock, two War Walkers and the Vauls Battery on his.
I lost five to three in Victory points I believe.
The Grand llusion is an amazingly good party trick. Even if the opponent seizes it allows you to relocate key units for maximum counter-effect, and if he doesn't it allows for a tremendous amount of flexibility. The Eldar still move really fast, but if a big chunk of your army is sitting twelve inches away they HAVE to honor the threat.
Smite is still the bane of the C'tan. I think that had I better wrapped the Deceiver in turn one with a unit to deny those initial four wounds, the game might have gone differently, on the other hand I wouldn't have kept the immortals on the board for las long as I did so it's odds and evens.
The Scythes were unimpressive. Hitting on 4+ really bites for your heavy weapons and the random D3 hits means that you're as likely to get one hit, that misses 50% of the time and that's not good points value. It's worth noting that they were tougher than expected simply because he couldn't dedicate the firepower he wanted to them as the C'tan make an amazing distraction.
Still, I doubt I'll use the Doom scythes again on a 4 x 4. They move to far, and clever spreading out of units means it can actualy be hard to place the base so that it's 1 inch away from everything, and I was unimpressed by their firepower. The Tesla did more damage than the death ray and isn't that sad.,
Next game I'll test out arks, both ghost and Doomsday. For now, I think the Deceiver is going to remain a permanent part of my army. GI is just too good, both offensively and defensively.
I was also pleasantly surprised by Imotekh. His Call The Storm power is beastly if you roll well, he's got decent shooting and MWBD is always worth having.
Got in another game today, 2k against marines. I won it but felt that the doomsday ark didn't really bring it, might be because I rolled one for every number of shots, but even at it's best I didn't feel like it was as good as 3 heavy destroyers. One of the clutch players was actually my spyder, who ended up putting six wounds back on my DDA over the course of the fight, and keeping it out of it's wounded profile for two turns of heavy fire. Brought nightbringer, and with arrow of time he was stupid good. Samuel almost got him, but he was able to fall back and let the immortals smoke him. Blowing up a storm raven over my lines was like the worst pinata ever, his terminators landed and on his following turn took out my stalker. All in all fun game and much better than my dark angels game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I've been debating how to talk about necrons for someone who is maybe new to this edition, so keeping things approachable and still conveying some of the nuance of list building, without getting as long winded as the average 1d4chan articles get. So my thought is since a statline is pretty easy to understand, and efficiency is covered elsewhere, I thought I'd focus on the combos you'll have to bring to make your list more than the sum of it's parts. Specifically talking about the combo makers and what units pair well with them.
HQ Overlord - +1 to hit/Advances/Charge Distances is useful for anyone, but it only affects infantry with the <Dynasty> Keyword. It's most notable with tesla wielding Immortals who get twice the value out of the tesla Special rule. Generally speaking only Lychguard will get any value out of the charges aspect, as our other CC units aren't infantry, or don't have the <Dynasty> Keyword.
Cryptek - Two defensive arua, one for a 5++ save vs shooting, and one for a +1 to RP, both at a 3" range (I guess they are clingy or something). This one is a little trickier than it first appears, the initial thought was to park them next to a 20 man blob of warriors, but it turns out that it doesn't help the warriors much as the RP on a 20 man warrior blob is already very good, and a 5++ save doesn't help as much vs the weapons that are good vs warriors blobs. To get the most out of him you'll want him to be near expensive units with RP that tend to draw fire from high AP weapons, so destroyers or lychguard w/ warscythes. For instance with destroyers each additional RP is 63 points, and an invul save vs a lascannon could be the same.
Lord - Arguably better for babysitting warrior blobs than a cryptek, since he allows you to reroll failed morale checks. At about 7 or so casualties morale start being a concern, and rerolling a bad morale check will probably save more warriors than a +1 to RP.
Destroyer Lord - The closest we have a beat stick in our HQ, Tough, with lots of wounds, his only real combo is with destroyers, which he allows to reroll ones to damage. If your planning on bringing destroyers he is the HQ for you since he can keep up with them.
Catacomb Command Barge - More or less an overlord on a skateboard, 12" move and a 12" range on my will be done. However he has low wounds (for a vehicle) and is not a character, so he will get smoked the second your opponent decides to get even a little serious in his removal. Skip until he gets the character keyword or more wounds, or both.
Elites
Triarch Stalker - If it shoots at an enemy all of your units reroll ones to hit against his target. Universally useful, best used against units that can take a lot of fire. For buff reasons and for reasons of bringing more anti-fattie weapons, I'd suggest the twin Heavy gauss cannons. It has the best range.
C'Tan shard of the Deceiver - Grand illusion wins games, you get to redeploy the deceiver and a D3 units (worth blowing a command point on if you get a 1) to anywhere on the board more than 12" away from an enemy. It happens after seize so you will always know what you're getting into. Good combos are units with access to tomb world reserves as these can immediately pull people from the tomb worlds on your turn, kind of like matryoshka dolls.
Heavy
Tomb Spyder - Repairs vehicles and replenishes scarabs, which are our go to screening unit. They also block psychic powers if equipped correctly.
Ok so I think we can all agree from playing some games and seeing online batraps that necrons are never going to win a dakka dakka race against a properly built list at range or cc.
So wearing them down while refusing to stay down is our supposed niche. My gaming group have also found that the psychic phase is no joke and if use properly can turn a close game to a blow out.
Also in testing all our characters seem to not be worth it, that extra 60 points for Zahndrekh or even 40 points for Szeras in more effective in troops or vehicle options.
So with that in mind this is my list I will test out next week.
I call it my "Choke on this" list
1 Overlord -119 Staff of Light
10 Tesla Immortal-170
10 Tesla Immortal-170
5 Scarabs -65
5 Scarabs -65
6 Tomb Blades -306 Twin Gauss, Sheildvanes, Nebuloscopes
1 Spyder -109 Fabricator Claw, Gloom Prism, Two Particle Beamer
1 Spyder -109 Fabricator Claw, Gloom Prism, Two Particle Beamer
Total =1999
So with 75 wounds worth of Scarabs that move 10" I will never be without some kind of buffer for cc, a fast objective getter and use them as a Anvil. Not expecting them to kill anything really.
My Hammer will be the DDay Arks and the Tomb Blades that with the 14" move will always be able to get into rapid range (24 Gauss shots that ignore cover should put a dent in things) when the Scarabs pull out of combat
The Spyders as cooler than I first thought. As far as me and my group can find their Gloom Prisms have no range and are not Psycers in the least so that rule does not apply. So about a 50% chance of shutting down two powers a round is not shabby at all.
They rez a killed Scarab base for EVERY unit in 6" not just one! So that on top of repairing Arks and Stalkers. I took out Illuminor Szeras for a normal Cryptek and used that extra 40 points for Two Particle Beamers for each Spyder 12 Assault S6 Shots is worth the loss I think.
Feel free to tear my list apart if you find anything you think is wrong.
Second one gives a possible psychic denial a repair for for the DDAs and also gives me an extra 44 points to add more scarabs or make my deathmarks a unit of 10 instead of 9
Edit: the rest of the list would help. For 2k games
Question about the Doom Scythe - it has to move every turn, yet has a heavy weapon, doesn't that mean it will always be a -1 to hit? I searched the thread but didn't see that mentioned. Played one last night and missed every hit roll on the heavy.
ski107 wrote: Question about the Doom Scythe - it has to move every turn, yet has a heavy weapon, doesn't that mean it will always be a -1 to hit? I searched the thread but didn't see that mentioned. Played one last night and missed every hit roll on the heavy.
Yes. It will always fire the death ray at -1 to hit.
Its not the only unit that does that too; the Crimson hunter only has heavy weapons, and it must move as well.
Just reading through the crypteks profile, and Ive realised we need a cryptek per unit to give the 4+, as it specifically states that its models from units within 3", not like the chronometron which just specifies units within 3". Annoying.
Klowny wrote: Just reading through the crypteks profile, and Ive realised we need a cryptek per unit to give the 4+, as it specifically states that its models from units within 3", not like the chronometron which just specifies units within 3". Annoying.
Yup that is why you are seeing pretty much every list with the minimum HQs as possible. Our HQs are kind of a tax really, you are mathematically better off spending points on troops then ever getting more HQs then requires. If they ever make a HQless detachment with lots of troop options we will be one of the only races to jump on that and never look back.
We went over that one earlier, its worded poorly but it means it's effecting models from the unit you are within 3" of. You can't actually be within 3" of the models themselves since they were removed from the board entirely as casualties earlier.
Actinium wrote: We went over that one earlier, its worded poorly but it means it's effecting models from the unit you are within 3" of. You can't actually be within 3" of the models themselves since they were removed from the board entirely as casualties earlier.
And certainly one cryptek could serve many units? Just need to be 3" from him
Klowny wrote: Just reading through the crypteks profile, and Ive realised we need a cryptek per unit to give the 4+, as it specifically states that its models from units within 3", not like the chronometron which just specifies units within 3". Annoying.
Yup that is why you are seeing pretty much every list with the minimum HQs as possible. Our HQs are kind of a tax really, you are mathematically better off spending points on troops then ever getting more HQs then requires. If they ever make a HQless detachment with lots of troop options we will be one of the only races to jump on that and never look back.
I could not disagree more. I have found our HQs to be incredibly effective in every game I have played.
Actinium wrote: We went over that one earlier, its worded poorly but it means it's effecting models from the unit you are within 3" of. You can't actually be within 3" of the models themselves since they were removed from the board entirely as casualties earlier.
My apologies, we have done this. Exams have wrecked my memory for non-uni things atm
Add 1 to all Reanimation Protocol rolls for models from friendly <DYNASTY> units within 3" of any friendly <DYNASTY> CRYPTEKS.
... I don't see what the problem was.
Anyway, it looks like we can expect to see competitive Necron armies constituting of mainly Warriors and Heavy Destroyers, as those appear to be our "most effective" units.
3x Heavy Destroyers - 225 3x Heavy Destroyers - 225
= 1998
for 9 Command Points, it doesn't look too bad. With no vehicles your opponent's anti armor stuff will be slightly wasted. The troop units all cost relatively the same amount so can be subbed out for more Warriors or Immortals easily, depending on the situation. ... Still think it's a little too boring looking, though. (but that's apparently how we play, now: slow grind)
I feel there are devils in the details regarding the concept of a screening unit. Is it correct that lets say a unit of 20 genestealers could simply move up to within 1" of the scarabs, declare a multicharge, and then just rush past them to attack the juicier targets behind? Perhaps leaving one model to deal with the speed bump?
Or I could put my scarabs <1" apart, but would now only cover some 7-8" width perhaps?
Are there ways to maximize their potensial? Keeping them ahead by a certain length from the units they protect behind?
For 2500pts, this is what I'm testing out on my next game:
Spoiler:
CCB w/ tesla and warscythe
CCB w/ tesla and warscythe
Stalker w/ heavy gauss
Stalker w/ heavy gauss
7X Scarabs
7X Scarabs
8X DDA
Obviously, there are some limitations with objective mission, mainly with The Relic, but nothing that can't be overcome, I think. CCBs are normally are a pretty suboptimal choice, but in this particular list, they are the only HQ that really makes any sense.
For 2500pts, this is what I'm testing out on my next game:
CCB w/ tesla and warscythe
CCB w/ tesla and warscythe
Stalker w/ heavy gauss
Stalker w/ heavy gauss
7X Scarabs
7X Scarabs
8X DDA
Obviously, there are some limitations with objective mission, mainly with The Relic, but nothing that can't be overcome, I think. CCBs are normally are a pretty suboptimal choice, but in this particular list, they are the only HQ that really makes any sense.
Maybe turn one of those DDA into a third Stalker and split those Scarabs up into 4 units and you'll be able to go after multiple objectives more easily.
Maelstrom808 wrote: For 2500pts, this is what I'm testing out on my next game:
CCB w/ tesla and warscythe
CCB w/ tesla and warscythe
Stalker w/ heavy gauss
Stalker w/ heavy gauss
7X Scarabs
7X Scarabs
8X DDA
Obviously, there are some limitations with objective mission, mainly with The Relic, but nothing that can't be overcome, I think. CCBs are normally are a pretty suboptimal choice, but in this particular list, they are the only HQ that really makes any sense.
ItS is good HQ for such army. You can also get less point HQ like lord. Sounds good.
So like, why is the Transcendent Ctan more expensive than the Nightbringer? And why is the Tesseract Vault only T7? Do they want to not sell more of that kit? Because that's how you don't sell more of that kit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also just noticed an Overlord can take a Hyperphase sword (ap-3 d1) for 3 points, or can take a Voidblade (ap-3, d1) for 6 points. However will I choose??
krodarklorr wrote: So like, why is the Transcendent Ctan more expensive than the Nightbringer? And why is the Tesseract Vault only T7? Do they want to not sell more of that kit?
Because they want you to use it like it was in the last edition. Run it down your opponents throat and hope they blow it up and deal a bomb of mortal wounds all around it on an easy 4+.
If they don't and ignore it well it can spam 3 of the same power so mortal wounds every turn.
I don't think it is tournament worthy but I think it is at least fieldable now for fun games.
krodarklorr wrote: So like, why is the Transcendent Ctan more expensive than the Nightbringer? And why is the Tesseract Vault only T7? Do they want to not sell more of that kit?
Because they want you to use it like it was in the last edition. Run it down your opponents throat and hope they blow it up and deal a bomb of mortal wounds all around it on an easy 4+.
If they don't and ignore it well it can spam 3 of the same power so mortal wounds every turn.
I don't think it is tournament worthy but I think it is at least fieldable now for fun games.
Its too big lottery. 4+ for hit, 2d6" range and d6dmg. You never now is it worth.
krodarklorr wrote: So like, why is the Transcendent Ctan more expensive than the Nightbringer? And why is the Tesseract Vault only T7? Do they want to not sell more of that kit?
Because they want you to use it like it was in the last edition. Run it down your opponents throat and hope they blow it up and deal a bomb of mortal wounds all around it on an easy 4+.
If they don't and ignore it well it can spam 3 of the same power so mortal wounds every turn.
I don't think it is tournament worthy but I think it is at least fieldable now for fun games.
Its too big lottery. 4+ for hit, 2d6" range and d6dmg. You never now is it worth.
Yeah it's too expensive for a random bomb. Its nowhere near fieldable in my opinion.
Warriors x15
Tesla Immortals x10
Tesla Immortals x10
Deathmarks x5
Deathmarks x5
Deceiver
Scarabs x5
Scarabs x5
Scarabs x4
Heavy Destroyers x3
Doomsday Ark
Doom Scythe
Round 1 vs 4 Knights. Managed to pop two Knights in the first two to turns, but then the Doom Scythe and Doomsday Arks died (mostly because I forgot about QS on the Ark). Chipped down another one and won on objectives.
Round 2 vs the most disgusting Daemon list I've seen yet. Lord of Change, 2 CSM Princes, Changeling, 3 Flamer Chariots, a Renegade Knight, and then like 10 - 12 units of Brimstones with a Blue Horror in each. Whole army other than the Knight had 4++, and he could cast Smite nearly 20 times. Sure Blues only cast on one die, but that doesn't matter when you chuck down that many of them and cover the board. That dude went undefeated.
Round 3 vs Sisters. Holy butts they're actually good now. Immolator spam filled with Flamer and Melta chicks supported by Celestine. I had enough anti tank to pop a couple tanks, but then he just rolled up and it was like 14d6 auto hit S5 AP-1 per turn, or Meltas on the big things. And Celestine is insanely powerful. Truly brutal. He tabled myself and one other opponent and only lost Relic due to shenanigans. Sisters honestly scare the crap out of me.
So 1-2. Not sure how I'm feeling on Crons. Everything killy is very expensive (and unreliable to boot), and everything affordable is just spammy dudes with no way to kill big things. I have a couple more lists to try but after seeing the things that were winning I have no idea how they would perform.
Deceiver almost feels like a trap. Putting things far up the board in the hope to be on objectives or to slow down the enemy just splits up the phalanx. Our stuff needs to be all together in a clump to get the max efficiency, so unless you're using it for a bomb or maybe for like QS spam stuff (putting ABarges/Stalkers in range?), I think the theory is a bit more exciting than the practice.
Doom Scythe is garbage. Straight up.
Everything else was fine, it just was far from an optimized list. Still felt like I was punching above my weight class all three games, only won the first one with some lucky shooting on T1.
So just finished my first game of 8th. Absolutely love it. Such a massive improvement in almost every way.
I ran against a blob spam guard list, with two wyverns, a basalisk and a manticore, two flamer tanks, and 8 HWT's. Imperial Guard get alot of models for 2k points.
I ran a list that was actually quite effective.
Spoiler:
Battalion:
1x O/lord w/ SoL
1x Cryptek
20x Warriors
20x Warriors
10x Tesla Immortals
1x DDA 1x GA
I ended up winning the game on points (19-7) but I only had a full health DDA, half health C'tan, full health O/Lord and a 3/4 health unit of immortals. He ran out of time, and couldnt table me by the end (and didnt have the guns to reach/see me to table).
MWBD tesla immortals are DIRTY!!! was averaging 24-30 tesla shots a turn.
Cover is huge, I found I didn't need the chronometron from the cryptek almost at all. Deepstriking in flayed ones and deathmarks took a whole half the boards shooting (wyvern with 4D6 and multiple HWT) and having a 2+ or 3+ armour save is very very strong.
The Deceivers redeploy was immensely helpful. I had 40 warriors in rapid fire range T1. I rerolled to get a 6, didnt but still got 2. By T2 my cryptek and lord were buffing the unit.
I only got one really good RP, most of the stuff either failed or didnt get to RP. I didn't respect his plasma HWT, as they took 10w off a GA in one turn. (They are way more efficient at killing than lascannons due to Quantam Shielding). Rolling 7-8 1's a turn to negate damage that ignores armour is brutal.
After the GA was dead, he focused his whole army into my two warrior blobs, and they died. I really wished I had kept come command points (will do in future) for auto passing morale. It is vital to keeping the warriors alive.
The stalker and DDA combo, while the stalker didn't help too much, only granting one reroll for the DDA the whole game, I found together they did huge damage. I dropped a wyvern to 5w in 1 turn, effectively neutering it as it was hitting on 5+ after that.
The combo came so close to one shotting a Basalisk, had 1 wound left that the two SoL finished off next turn.
Deployment helps against gunline horde (IG) and so does maelstrom, two things they have always struggled with. The new maps force them into strange positions, not being able to screen properly as there is just too many units to fit in the lines to do it properly.
I love my crons. I had my doubts but they are not as bad as people are saying.
Our big guns are really good, and our warriors are brutal.
Silver Tide and QS Wall are our "competitive" builds?
(with honorable mention going to the Deceiver and Tesla Immortals+MWBD)
Thus far everything else just doesn't seem like it can stand up to all the power builds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Deepstriking in flayed ones and deathmarks took a whole half the boards shooting (wyvern with 4D6 and multiple HWT) and having a 2+ or 3+ armour save is very very strong.
How did they (Deathmarks and Flayed Ones) actually perform?
We're they just distraction, or did they actually contribute something meaningful to the game?
Silver Tide and QS Wall are our "competitive" builds?
(with honorable mention going to the Deceiver and Tesla Immortals+MWBD)
Thus far everything else just doesn't seem like it can stand up to all the power builds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Deepstriking in flayed ones and deathmarks took a whole half the boards shooting (wyvern with 4D6 and multiple HWT) and having a 2+ or 3+ armour save is very very strong.
How did they (Deathmarks and Flayed Ones) actually perform?
We're they just distraction, or did they actually contribute something meaningful to the game?
Whelp my flayed ones didnt do any damage as is customary playing my friends IG. I initially was going to bring the monolith, but it meant not enough models on the board. The deathmarks should have killed a captain that was stopping his moral losses, but I rolled sub par.
Deathmarks deepstriking into 2+ cover is very good, they tanked a whoooooooooole lot of punishment, which I was not expecting.
Cannot stress how much cover helps us, especially considering the decievers redeploy. Putting massive warrior blobs into cover makes them 3+/5++/4+++ double tapping RP makes them very hard to displace, and this is all in rapid fire range. They absolutely melt HWT, most infantry tbh.
The GA should have survived longer, and would have swung the game hard in my favour. That and blowing my last CP on rerolls for damage for the DDA (admittedly it did almost one shot the basalisk) was what brought it so close to the line because it meant my warriors died when they really shouldnt.
It did take his whole armies firepower to destroy 32 warriors kek.
But for future reference, ALWAYS keep CP in reserve for auto passing morale if your running warrior spam. It helps more than any other buff. Guard can put out a lot of shots, so maybe i took a disproportionate amount of damage, but once the casualties start to rack up it gets harder and harder to pass morale.
But yea, I went up against a moderately heavy vehicle list, granted they are only 11-14w apiece, but I did manage to blow up 4 of his main tanks with just a DDA and a stalker, and the DDA wasnt even targeting them for the last 3 turns.... Our heavy weapon options are fine and work well guys, chill your beans.
So getting ready for my first GT of 8th ed, kicking around lists right now. My initial plan is to bring a deceiver bomb, but that trick doesn't work on everybody, because there are some armies that I do not want to be closer to. So I need another trick to fall back on, that works with a matryoshka style deceiver bomb lists. Here is my idea so far, I do a four drop with the first night scythe (Night scythe + Warriors + immortals + Lord), for a total of eight drops which should be very competitive for the first turn. I ended up taking a patrol detachment because I wanted to skip the extra HQ and troop tax for a battalion, it leaves me short on CP with only three, but I think it will be worth it for trimming the fat off of the list.
Plan A is crossing the T, deceiver and the two night scythes drop on an opponent's flank, the night scythes drop the immortals and Warriors, and then everyone get to work on crushing the flank. The rest of my army will stick in my deployment zone providing fire support screened by scarabs with wraiths to handle counter charges. This will be brutal rapid fire Knife fight where I have an advantage in concentration and my opponent can either fall back and secede board control to me, or feed me his army one chunk at a time.
Plan b is encirclement, this is for the armies I don't want to get too close to, once again I use the deceiver to drop the night scythes but they are placed at 24" from the main body on opposite flanks. the troops disembark, and then the night scythes get some distance making multi charges impossible. The rest of my forces spread out in the deployment zone with the scarabs and wraiths blocking. Should form a nice circle which will deny multi-charges and consolidations into other units. It also forces him to spread out or pick targets, either of which work to my advantage.
Risks, 1 in 9 games deceiver will only take one person with him (because I will spend a CP to reroll) but then I go into plan B. Some elite armies will have fewer drops, or an opponent could seize, which means I also fall back on plan B since the D-Bomb happens after seize. Properly screened units will be a pain in the kester, but we shall see.
Too bad you can't fit some Deathmarks into the above list. They'd be able to help with that first turn blitz.
Though, guys, favor,
Can we please use spoilers if we're going to posts lists in this thread? I don't have a problem with the lists themselves, so much as the amount of page space they take up. A couple of lists on a page won't make much of a difference, but too many is going to make scrolling through pages a pain in the ass.
Fixed, I could squeeze a 9 man deathmark squad in but it would require giving up the stalker, which would make me worry about the lack of anti-fattie weapons.
I want to/have to believe that deathmarks are worth it. On paper at least they seem like they are needed to assist with a alpha strike. Where I live that's the new flavor everyone is trying out( tau, marines, etc.) some of the HQs that come down with them are brutal and being able to knock him out the turn he comes in seems like gold. If not throw them in cover and harass
torblind wrote: I feel there are devils in the details regarding the concept of a screening unit. Is it correct that lets say a unit of 20 genestealers could simply move up to within 1" of the scarabs, declare a multicharge, and then just rush past them to attack the juicier targets behind? Perhaps leaving one model to deal with the speed bump?
Or I could put my scarabs <1" apart, but would now only cover some 7-8" width perhaps?
Are there ways to maximize their potensial? Keeping them ahead by a certain length from the units they protect behind?
For most cases you want your screening unit about 8-9" ahead of the unit it's protecting to prevent the multi charge slip, a scarab base is about 2" wide and the opponent has to stop 1" away from that so they'll need to roll an 11 or 12 on their 2d6 charge distance to cover that gap which is so unlikely they will probably not bother taking the rapid fire overwatch and instead just lose the turn killing the scarabs.
There will be times where the assaulting unit are too close or too fast and even if you backpedal your troops the whole 5" move thing isn't going to let you escape and in those cases you do want to go for the sub 1" coherency trick so they can't fit a base between your scarabs bases, as even though they'll be able to charge your juicier unit they will probably need to flow around the scarab unit or through a gap in 2 scarab units in such a way that only a handful of models can get to base contact and a handful more within 1" of those which will be the only models allowed to make attacks in the ensuing fight phase which hopefully curbs the damage enough that you can survive to make some reanimation rolls and then fall back. When in this situation try to use terrain to your advantage, not just impassible but even forests and craters. If you can force them to move through that during their charge move they have to subtract 2" from their 2d6 roll.
Also it's important to be aware of the opposing army's tricks when positioning. Orks have pretty obvious movement patterns, all-in sudden burst moves like trukks and battlewagons and 'da jump' that are pretty easy to see coming the turn before they're allowed to charge, but their 'ere we go' rule lets them re-roll a failed charge distance plus they can use a command point on a single die if one of their 2d6 is a 5 or 6 so they very well may be able to make an 10+ inch charge. Tyranids don't have a way to modify their charge distance that i know of but genestealers can advance and still charge and the swarmlord can nominate a unit to move a second time in the shooting phase so it's possible to make a unit of 20 genestealers move about 24" and still be able to charge so be ready for that sudden burst that can punish you for setting up too close or that slips all the way around screening units or impassible terrain features to hit you from a weird angle. And always keep tabs on units with the fly keyword who can freely move over the scarabs.
edit: oh but try not to just leave the scarabs out there from the start, they have a solid 10" move profile so they can chill back by the troops or hide from shooting until the opponent is close then suddenly form the screen. If they just sit out in front you can sometimes just give an assault unit a target to use to charge just so they gain a free 2d6 movement instead of doing nothing in no man's land because there's nothing within 12".
Deathmarks are fine. Cheap for deep striking potential MWs that are 2+ in cover. They're nothing special and won't win you games outright, but for 100 point min units that can intercept reserves and also poke at important Characters, they'll help get you there most of the time. I don't regret taking them since they're pretty cheap and at least somewhat effective.
Actinium wrote: For most cases you want your screening unit about 8-9" ahead of the unit it's protecting to prevent the multi charge slip, a scarab base is about 2" wide and the opponent has to stop 1" away from that so they'll need to roll an 11 or 12 on their 2d6 charge distance to cover that gap which is so unlikely they will probably not bother taking the rapid fire overwatch and instead just lose the turn killing the scarabs.
There will be times where the assaulting unit are too close or too fast and even if you backpedal your troops the whole 5" move thing isn't going to let you escape and in those cases you do want to go for the sub 1" coherency trick so they can't fit a base between your scarabs bases, as even though they'll be able to charge your juicier unit they will probably need to flow around the scarab unit or through a gap in 2 scarab units in such a way that only a handful of models can get to base contact and a handful more within 1" of those which will be the only models allowed to make attacks in the ensuing fight phase which hopefully curbs the damage enough that you can survive to make some reanimation rolls and then fall back. When in this situation try to use terrain to your advantage, not just impassible but even forests and craters. If you can force them to move through that during their charge move they have to subtract 2" from their 2d6 roll.
Also it's important to be aware of the opposing army's tricks when positioning. Orks have pretty obvious movement patterns, all-in sudden burst moves like trukks and battlewagons and 'da jump' that are pretty easy to see coming the turn before they're allowed to charge, but their 'ere we go' rule lets them re-roll a failed charge distance plus they can use a command point on a single die if one of their 2d6 is a 5 or 6 so they very well may be able to make an 10+ inch charge. Tyranids don't have a way to modify their charge distance that i know of but genestealers can advance and still charge and the swarmlord can nominate a unit to move a second time in the shooting phase so it's possible to make a unit of 20 genestealers move about 24" and still be able to charge so be ready for that sudden burst that can punish you for setting up too close or that slips all the way around screening units or impassible terrain features to hit you from a weird angle. And always keep tabs on units with the fly keyword who can freely move over the scarabs.
edit: oh but try not to just leave the scarabs out there from the start, they have a solid 10" move profile so they can chill back by the troops or hide from shooting until the opponent is close then suddenly form the screen. If they just sit out in front you can sometimes just give an assault unit a target to use to charge just so they gain a free 2d6 movement instead of doing nothing in no man's land because there's nothing within 12".
If you watch the FLG guys, you'll see they operate screens very differently. They have a good understanding of the rules, specifically, for pile ins and consolidates you can't move if you are in base to base, and if you are not you have to move towards the closest unit. So you make your screens narrow and long, and remove casualties from unengaged models. They also don't consolidate their screens, and rarely fall back, instead opting to tar pit rather than exterminate. This allows the screens to be much closer to the screened units, which means smaller screens. Also the goal of screens is not only to stop units on the board from getting close, it's also to stop deep striking chargers, which means screening units need to be a bubble rather than a wall your units are hiding behind.
This brings us to the math portion of screens, A 9 base scarab swarm gives you a screen of the bases width (9 x 2 so 18") plus 3/4" between them (5.25 or 7 inches in a hemisphere), gives you a 25" perimeter. Ideally you would set up on the edge of the board in a hemisphere, which gives you a diameter of 15". You need to deploy at least 3 " back , so you basically have a 12" diameter hemisphere which is freaking tiny, so you need to be selective on which units you screen. For my list above it's a stalker, a DDA, and some heavy destroyers.
On the subject of screening, since the Nightbringiner doesn't have the redeploy tricks that the deceiver does, I was thinking about sending a 9 base scarab unit ahead of it to screen incoming fire and get the Nightbringer delivered into cc with full wounds. 10" movement means they can stay ahead of the NB the whole time. Yay or nay?
Dew wrote: On the subject of screening, since the Nightbringiner doesn't have the redeploy tricks that the deceiver does, I was thinking about sending a 9 base scarab unit ahead of it to screen incoming fire and get the Nightbringer delivered into cc with full wounds. 10" movement means they can stay ahead of the NB the whole time. Yay or nay?
I like nightbringer, he is amazingly devastating. Scarabs are tough and fast so it shouldn't be an issue getting him in CC, just bubble wrap and deliver.
I was just thinking why not bring in Wraiths, atleast this way the Nightbringer has some help tearing into unit, plus the Wraiths have that 3+ inv save. Actually just reading more into the Wraith form, i think this might be our answer to attacking supporting Characters behind blobs of weaker troops as it states in thier rules that they can move through terrain and models as if they were not there. who is to say that we need to be worried about being locked up in an unwanted combat when we can just walk through them and go after our target? I believe the Wraith Knight has something similar in the form of being able to walk over infantry units.
Blueguy203 wrote: I was just thinking why not bring in Wraiths, atleast this way the Nightbringer has some help tearing into unit, plus the Wraiths have that 3+ inv save. Actually just reading more into the Wraith form, i think this might be our answer to attacking supporting Characters behind blobs of weaker troops as it states in thier rules that they can move through terrain and models as if they were not there. who is to say that we need to be worried about being locked up in an unwanted combat when we can just walk through them and go after our target? I believe the Wraith Knight has something similar in the form of being able to walk over infantry units.
Nightbringer with Wraiths can charge by the wall and forgot about overwatch. Scarabs can only charge around corner.
But i dont like new Wraiths. I play vs psykers and smite kill them fast.
Also they atack have only 1 dmg and -1 ap. Another CC unit for this point get upgrade to dmg.
Given the recent FAQ clarifying the phraseology of "rolls to hit" and their interaction with modifiers, I'm guessing that means we lose our MWBD + Tesla interaction?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is a sequence description from another forum:
Here is a step by step breakdown that I found on reddit that I believe is correct:
Sequence of Events
1) Standard rolls.
2) Distinguish failed from passed.
3) Re-rolls
4) Apply Modifiers
5) Check Statements
Scenario
A Space Marine (BS3+) is firing at a XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit.
The Space Marine is using a plasma gun.
The Space Marine is benefiting from a re-roll all failed to hit rolls.
The Space Marine uses the supercharge profile of his plasma gun.
The Ghostkeel is more than 12" away from the Space Marine, thus the Space Marine has -1 to hit rolls.
The Ghostkeel is also within 3" of a stealth drone, giving the Space Marine another -1 to hit rolls (Total of -2 to hit rolls)
Scenario - Sequence of Events
1) Standard rolls: As the Space Marine pulls the trigger, for the sake of this example, lets say he has 6 shots and every possibility from the to hit roll is rolled (1,2,3,4,5,6).
2) Distinguish failed from passed: Being BS3+, the Space Marine theoretically misses (1,2).
3) Re-rolls: The (1,2) dice are re-rolled, the result being are (4,5). Having (3,4,4,5,5,6) as the new result.
4) Apply Modifiers: From (3,4,4,5,5,6) the modified result is (1,2,2,3,3,4) due to -2 to hit rolls.
5) Check Statements: The Space Marine managed to land 3 shots (3,3,4) however the (1) which was previously a (3) did not get re-rolled since he did pass the test, but after the modifiers turned into a lethal (1). Due to the supercharge rule, the model is slain.
Long story shot don't overcharge plasma when you have minuses to hit.
sieGermans wrote: Given the recent FAQ clarifying the phraseology of "rolls to hit" and their interaction with modifiers, I'm guessing that means we lose our MWBD + Tesla interaction?
Why would we lose it?
MWBD give +1 To Hit (among the other bonuses).
Tesla says that on a hit roll of 6+ it triggers its effect.
The FAQ/Designers' Commentary says that:
Q: If a rule states that an ability triggers on, for
example, ‘hit rolls of 6+’, does this refer to the result of
the dice rolls before or after modifiers are applied?
A: It refers to the final result, after re-rolls and modifiers
(if any) have been applied.
In my interpretation, MWBD allows Tesla Immortals to proc on hit rolls of 5+ (after applying its modifier).
Why wouldn't this work for Tesla?
Check the below scenario with MWBD-
Sequence of Events
1) Standard rolls. (roll four dice: one 1, one 2, one 5, one 6)
2) Distinguish failed from passed. (1 and 2 are failed)
3) Re-rolls (irrelevant, unless shooting at the same target as a Stalker, in which case the 1 could be rerolled. For simplicity's sake we'll say we're not)
4) Apply Modifiers (the remaining 5 gets a +1, making it a 6)
5) Check Statements ("6s get +2 hits" from Tesla rule. You now have two 6s, so you score six hits)
Yes, MWBD works for tesla. It also means that if you advance or shoot at an airborne target you won't be able to proc the tesla effect.
Its an overall nerf, imo.
skoffs wrote: Why wouldn't this work for Tesla?
Check the below scenario with MWBD-
Sequence of Events
1) Standard rolls. (roll four dice: one 1, one 2, one 5, one 6)
2) Distinguish failed from passed. (1 and 2 are failed)
3) Re-rolls (irrelevant, unless shooting at the same target as a Stalker, in which case the 1 could be rerolled. For simplicity's sake we'll say we're not)
4) Apply Modifiers (the remaining 5 gets a +1, making it a 6)
5) Check Statements ("6s get +2 hits" from Tesla rule. You now have two 6s, so you score six hits)
So that means that it would be impossible to get the tesla 6+ if you have a -1 to hit and no positive modifier?
skoffs wrote: Why wouldn't this work for Tesla? Check the below scenario with MWBD-
Sequence of Events 1) Standard rolls. (roll four dice: one 1, one 2, one 5, one 6) 2) Distinguish failed from passed. (1 and 2 are failed) 3) Re-rolls (irrelevant, unless shooting at the same target as a Stalker, in which case the 1 could be rerolled. For simplicity's sake we'll say we're not) 4) Apply Modifiers (the remaining 5 gets a +1, making it a 6) 5) Check Statements ("6s get +2 hits" from Tesla rule. You now have two 6s, so you score six hits)
So that means that it would be impossible to get the tesla 6+ if you have a -1 to hit and no positive modifier?
Logically, yes. That's why this isn't really a buff for tesla, because whilst tesla may get improved by an overlord, it becomes signficantly weaker against flyers, if you advance, at night or against anything else with a - hit modifier. You could use an overlord to circumvent it at least, but only if its infantry. So Anni barges are even weaker now.
On the plus side though, overwatch will always proc tesla if it hits, so the annibarge has that going for it at least
skoffs wrote: Why wouldn't this work for Tesla?
Check the below scenario with MWBD-
Sequence of Events
1) Standard rolls. (roll four dice: one 1, one 2, one 5, one 6)
2) Distinguish failed from passed. (1 and 2 are failed)
3) Re-rolls (irrelevant, unless shooting at the same target as a Stalker, in which case the 1 could be rerolled. For simplicity's sake we'll say we're not)
4) Apply Modifiers (the remaining 5 gets a +1, making it a 6)
5) Check Statements ("6s get +2 hits" from Tesla rule. You now have two 6s, so you score six hits)
So that means that it would be impossible to get the tesla 6+ if you have a -1 to hit and no positive modifier?
Logically, yes. That's why this isn't really a buff for tesla, because whilst tesla may get improved by an overlord, it becomes signficantly weaker against flyers, if you advance, at night or against anything else with a - hit modifier. You could use an overlord to circumvent it at least, but only if its infantry.
So Anni barges are even weaker now.
On the plus side though, overwatch will always proc tesla if it hits, so the annibarge has that going for it at least
So all of our fliers can´t get at tesla his since they have to move and hence gets the -1 to hit. Well that ruins things. It would have been so much easier if they just would have said “on a natural 6”.
skoffs wrote: Why wouldn't this work for Tesla?
Check the below scenario with MWBD-
Sequence of Events
1) Standard rolls. (roll four dice: one 1, one 2, one 5, one 6)
2) Distinguish failed from passed. (1 and 2 are failed)
3) Re-rolls (irrelevant, unless shooting at the same target as a Stalker, in which case the 1 could be rerolled. For simplicity's sake we'll say we're not)
4) Apply Modifiers (the remaining 5 gets a +1, making it a 6)
5) Check Statements ("6s get +2 hits" from Tesla rule. You now have two 6s, so you score six hits)
So that means that it would be impossible to get the tesla 6+ if you have a -1 to hit and no positive modifier?
Logically, yes. That's why this isn't really a buff for tesla, because whilst tesla may get improved by an overlord, it becomes signficantly weaker against flyers, if you advance, at night or against anything else with a - hit modifier. You could use an overlord to circumvent it at least, but only if its infantry.
So Anni barges are even weaker now.
On the plus side though, overwatch will always proc tesla if it hits, so the annibarge has that going for it at least
So all of our fliers can´t get at tesla his since they have to move and hence gets the -1 to hit. Well that ruins things. It would have been so much easier if they just would have said “on a natural 6”.
skoffs wrote: Why wouldn't this work for Tesla?
Check the below scenario with MWBD-
Sequence of Events
1) Standard rolls. (roll four dice: one 1, one 2, one 5, one 6)
2) Distinguish failed from passed. (1 and 2 are failed)
3) Re-rolls (irrelevant, unless shooting at the same target as a Stalker, in which case the 1 could be rerolled. For simplicity's sake we'll say we're not)
4) Apply Modifiers (the remaining 5 gets a +1, making it a 6)
5) Check Statements ("6s get +2 hits" from Tesla rule. You now have two 6s, so you score six hits)
So that means that it would be impossible to get the tesla 6+ if you have a -1 to hit and no positive modifier?
Logically, yes. That's why this isn't really a buff for tesla, because whilst tesla may get improved by an overlord, it becomes signficantly weaker against flyers, if you advance, at night or against anything else with a - hit modifier. You could use an overlord to circumvent it at least, but only if its infantry.
So Anni barges are even weaker now.
On the plus side though, overwatch will always proc tesla if it hits, so the annibarge has that going for it at least
So all of our fliers can´t get at tesla his since they have to move and hence gets the -1 to hit. Well that ruins things. It would have been so much easier if they just would have said “on a natural 6”.
No. -1 to hit its only for moving with heavy weapon. Tesla is assault so you can move with it.
So all of our fliers can't get at tesla his since they have to move and hence gets the -1 to hit. Well that ruins things. It would have been so much easier if they just would have said “on a natural 6”.
Only if you advance (+20") and then Shoot, since Tesla Destructor is an Assault weapon.
Yeah, they thought that through at least.
If you advance then no, but fliers move so fast that advancing is unnecessary.
Annibarges on the other hand do take a bit of hit to their mobility as if you advance with them you can't proc tesla, but I guess that's fine. It still has a 12" move.
I think I prefer gauss cannons on barges, on paper at least. That's only something like 3 points more than the tesla cannon and it can actually kill things.
Gauss Cannons may be better at killing things with their AP-3, but because they're heavy they're going to get the -1 to hit if it moved. All Tesla is assault so it doesn't really care if it moves, just so long as it doesn't advance. Typically you want the Annihilation Barge moving, so T.Cannons tend to be the better bet in that case.
soooo... MWBD gives +1 to hit rolls "until the beginning of my next turn".
now. if I MWBD tesla immortals, who then get charged in my enemy's turn, MWBD is still active.
overwatch hits on unmodified 6s, BUT - all 5s still technically count as 6s. and causes "3 hits instead of one" on 6s.
I am fairly certain that the wording "3 hits INSTEAD OF ONE" implies that my 5s cause no hits (because there is no one hit I can get 3 instead of), but i'd still like to throw the argument in the ring and see what happens xD
I think they might be worth taking. I predict that later on people will work out that snipers can really mess up our durabilty by getting rid of the buffs, so Lychguard might start seeing some play to make use of their body guard ability. As an offensive unit they still have the problem of a lack of a delivery system.
In fact, I think lychguard might be one of the few units in the game who can do that; I don't see any other unit who can do that, other than Deddog (a character) and GSC (army wide special rule)
str00dles1 wrote:Not seeing lychguard make lists. Are they just not worth taking?
Still the same problems as before. Extremely slow, resilient against shooting but often not enough to slog across the table at a 5" move. Warscythes are great and you can easily give them a 5++, but if someone shoots enough Autocannons at them they'll go down in a couple turns unless you roll super hot.
It's a bit easier to use them with Night Scythes now, but that has problems of its own.
bort123 wrote:soooo... MWBD gives +1 to hit rolls "until the beginning of my next turn".
now. if I MWBD tesla immortals, who then get charged in my enemy's turn, MWBD is still active.
overwatch hits on unmodified 6s, BUT - all 5s still technically count as 6s. and causes "3 hits instead of one" on 6s.
I am fairly certain that the wording "3 hits INSTEAD OF ONE" implies that my 5s cause no hits (because there is no one hit I can get 3 instead of), but i'd still like to throw the argument in the ring and see what happens xD
You can never modify the Overwatch roll. Your 5s don't count as 6s, they are unmodified.
Hakumei wrote:
I watched that batrep. Lots of tactical errors on the Necron player's part.
The public one, certainly. His warriors more or less carried him to what victory points he achieved, and an annihilation barge had no place in that fight. He held his lychguard back for too long, and when it came time to put the petal to the metal they were sorely lacking. I think he should have massed fire at the deathwing instead of trying to duke it out with them.
The second one felt like the ad mech players game to lose, and no spoilers, but things did not got the way i expected.
I finally got around to watch the match, over a couple nights, (family, life, etc. takes time) - what did you find to be unexpected about it? (Could perhaps write in a spoiler not to give any... spoilers
I found it surprising the ad mech player didn't mulch the monolith. I was also surprised he brought kawl to fight the lychguard rather than just moving away, it was like giving away slay the warlord.
str00dles1 wrote: Not seeing lychguard make lists. Are they just not worth taking?
As guard they are easy to play but not good. Alternative you can take combo with anrakyr and give +1 A. With warscate you lychguard turn into deadly cc. For same opponents or battelfield it can be very useful. But still slow. Mayby nightscate or deciver are key to deal with it?
The trick to lychguard is using them as a deterrent/counter charger, because they are not catching anything that isn't already trapped in combat. They are a little too situational for me to include them in my list, which is disappointing.
I'm surprised lychguard don't see more play. I'll try to try some out in the next week or so.
With a Cryptek for a 5++ they can stick with warscythes, and then a 10-man unit has as many wounds as a full Warrior squad and a nice enough invulnerable save to make them hard to remove with plasma. You need to deliver them, still, which I guess would be the Deceiver or that pair of HQs that allow for teleportation. You're only paying 15 points per wound and they're fairly efficient anti-tank if you can get them there.
Dionysodorus wrote: I'm surprised lychguard don't see more play. I'll try to try some out in the next week or so.
With a Cryptek for a 5++ they can stick with warscythes, and then a 10-man unit has as many wounds as a full Warrior squad and a nice enough invulnerable save to make them hard to remove with plasma. You need to deliver them, still, which I guess would be the Deceiver or that pair of HQs that allow for teleportation. You're only paying 15 points per wound and they're fairly efficient anti-tank if you can get them there.
Deceiver won't work, they can't charge after being deployed by the deceiver. You would have to do something in the vein of a matryoshka style D-Bomb where you deliver night scythes and then the night scythes deliver the lychguard. It gets expensive fast, and you'll have to make a minimum of a 9" charge, so it seems a bit much for a unit that is merely good.
Dionysodorus wrote: I'm surprised lychguard don't see more play. I'll try to try some out in the next week or so.
With a Cryptek for a 5++ they can stick with warscythes, and then a 10-man unit has as many wounds as a full Warrior squad and a nice enough invulnerable save to make them hard to remove with plasma. You need to deliver them, still, which I guess would be the Deceiver or that pair of HQs that allow for teleportation. You're only paying 15 points per wound and they're fairly efficient anti-tank if you can get them there.
Deceiver won't work, they can't charge after being deployed by the deceiver. You would have to do something in the vein of a matryoshka style D-Bomb where you deliver night scythes and then the night scythes deliver the lychguard. It gets expensive fast, and you'll have to make a minimum of a 9" charge, so it seems a bit much for a unit that is merely good.
Obyron is the only reliable charge delivery method... but of course the entire combo costs way too much to be practical. You're usually better off just taking a couple of Warrior bricks with Grand Illusion, supported by Deathmarks and Doomsday Arks.
Yeah, I was thinking Obyron. I mean, you want an Overlord anyway so it's only Obyron who's a huge extra tax, and then his ability is also really handy for pulling things out of CC so they can still shoot. Might not be worth it but I'd like to give it a shot.
To be fair, you can somewhat reliably get Lychguard or even Flayed Ones in via Night Scythes. 2-3 Scythes that fly up the table into the enemy's face on T1 means, unless the entire army is 12" move, you have a good shot at a nearly guaranteed charge T2 with whatever gets out. But those Night Scythes aren't cheap and if someone has good AA (like Hydras), they might just get shot down.
The biggest issue I've found so far is cracking vehicles and monsters. HDestroyers can do it pretty well, but they also die just as easily. Warscythes wounding most big things on 4+ at best, 5+ on many tanks or Knight equivalents sucks a lot, even if they do essentially ignore armor and deal 2 damage per swing.
Requizen wrote: The biggest issue I've found so far is cracking vehicles and monsters. HDestroyers can do it pretty well, but they also die just as easily. Warscythes wounding most big things on 4+ at best, 5+ on many tanks or Knight equivalents sucks a lot, even if they do essentially ignore armor and deal 2 damage per swing.
That's where mass S10 AP-5 d6D might come in handy with QS Wall.
Requizen wrote: The biggest issue I've found so far is cracking vehicles and monsters. HDestroyers can do it pretty well, but they also die just as easily. Warscythes wounding most big things on 4+ at best, 5+ on many tanks or Knight equivalents sucks a lot, even if they do essentially ignore armor and deal 2 damage per swing.
That's where mass S10 AP-5 d6D might come in handy with QS Wall.
Yeah I might try to put together a few more DDArks.
It feels like HDestroyers shouldn't be easy to pop. Long range, 2+ in cover, T5 W3, maybe 5++ with a Cryptek. But honestly so many armies can put out things like plasma and Lascanncons and what not from enough range and enough numbers that 3 of them in a unit just doesn't cut the mustard. QS really is a great rule in practice.
I got to play with a DDA in a 1k game and instantly wish I had another. My 2k list runs two and I will never drop them from the list. Most of the games I play as soon as they see it on the table they do everything possible to target it and destroy it. You just point at something and it's gone lol
I have a game scheduled for later this week against one of our better players at my club and he's playing guard parking lot...nothing but bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns. As many as will fit in 2k. I'm sure he's squading up to reduce his deployment count so he has a chance at going first. I actually started looking at guard first when 8E hit last Saturday as I've been playing Necrons and Tau for the past year. Since he's playing IG I don't want to play a mirror match (although I do have some infantry units in mine and a couple of taurox primes and scions with plasma).
So what's a necron player to do about more massed armor than you can shake a warscythe at? I just don't see 2 or 3 blocks of warriors walking down field surviving the onslaught of artillery. I have the xenos books but admittedly have not read up on the necrons yet as I've been noodling guard this week and haven't really been following the leaks like I should have :(
str00dles1 wrote: Not seeing lychguard make lists. Are they just not worth taking?
I think that with people trying to min-max lists and everything being expensive, they get the cut early.
I also think though that they will make the cut in more standard lists down the line once more people see the inevitability of assault in addition to the usefulness of Guardian Protocols
necron99 wrote: I have a game scheduled for later this week against one of our better players at my club and he's playing guard parking lot...nothing but bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns. As many as will fit in 2k. I'm sure he's squading up to reduce his deployment count so he has a chance at going first. I actually started looking at guard first when 8E hit last Saturday as I've been playing Necrons and Tau for the past year. Since he's playing IG I don't want to play a mirror match (although I do have some infantry units in mine and a couple of taurox primes and scions with plasma).
So what's a necron player to do about more massed armor than you can shake a warscythe at? I just don't see 2 or 3 blocks of warriors walking down field surviving the onslaught of artillery. I have the xenos books but admittedly have not read up on the necrons yet as I've been noodling guard this week and haven't really been following the leaks like I should have :(
You can bring multiple DDArks and/or Heavy Destroyers and try to pop a couple on T1. 60 Warriors with Crypteks might survive long enough to get downfield.
This is a list where you might actually want to get some melee units in. None of those vehicles Fly, so you can charge in, do no damage, but then tie up multiple tanks and force them to not shoot. Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs in high enough numbers maybe, all can get in and then draw fire or prevent it altogether.
You can also try Night Scythes with dudes inside. The tanks will be hitting on 4s (other than any Commanders), so only 5s against Scythes, so zoom em up, maybe try to plink off a couple wounds, and then dump Warrior/Immortal blobs.
It's actually not bad but you can't expect to kill even half of his stuff unless you're bringing like 4-6 DDArks.
From what I'm hearing in all of the other army specific threads the models we never really put much stock in are now the top dogs. Who would have thought the IG Taurox would be anything? I think I played my DDA once when they first came out and then promptly shelved it...now we're all thinking it's a good idea to bring 3 to a gun fight?
necron99 wrote: I have a game scheduled for later this week against one of our better players at my club and he's playing guard parking lot...nothing but bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns. As many as will fit in 2k. I'm sure he's squading up to reduce his deployment count so he has a chance at going first. I actually started looking at guard first when 8E hit last Saturday as I've been playing Necrons and Tau for the past year. Since he's playing IG I don't want to play a mirror match (although I do have some infantry units in mine and a couple of taurox primes and scions with plasma).
So what's a necron player to do about more massed armor than you can shake a warscythe at? I just don't see 2 or 3 blocks of warriors walking down field surviving the onslaught of artillery. I have the xenos books but admittedly have not read up on the necrons yet as I've been noodling guard this week and haven't really been following the leaks like I should have :(
You can bring multiple DDArks and/or Heavy Destroyers and try to pop a couple on T1. 60 Warriors with Crypteks might survive long enough to get downfield.
This is a list where you might actually want to get some melee units in. None of those vehicles Fly, so you can charge in, do no damage, but then tie up multiple tanks and force them to not shoot. Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs in high enough numbers maybe, all can get in and then draw fire or prevent it altogether.
You can also try Night Scythes with dudes inside. The tanks will be hitting on 4s (other than any Commanders), so only 5s against Scythes, so zoom em up, maybe try to plink off a couple wounds, and then dump Warrior/Immortal blobs.
It's actually not bad but you can't expect to kill even half of his stuff unless you're bringing like 4-6 DDArks.
Agree with this, bum rush them into combat, you will neuter half his armies shooting the turn you do that. Grand illusion 2x large scarab squads, get into combat t1, half his powers gone, and the vehicles are atrocious in combat, while your scarabs put out tonnes of attacks that always wound on 5+'s. Then hammer the backline with DDA and stalkers, or massed HD with a destroyer lord (although the vehicles will last longer, so probably best go that route until FW stuff comes out. Our answers to anti vehicle are in there.)
necron99 wrote: I have a game scheduled for later this week against one of our better players at my club and he's playing guard parking lot...nothing but bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns. As many as will fit in 2k. I'm sure he's squading up to reduce his deployment count so he has a chance at going first. I actually started looking at guard first when 8E hit last Saturday as I've been playing Necrons and Tau for the past year. Since he's playing IG I don't want to play a mirror match (although I do have some infantry units in mine and a couple of taurox primes and scions with plasma).
So what's a necron player to do about more massed armor than you can shake a warscythe at? I just don't see 2 or 3 blocks of warriors walking down field surviving the onslaught of artillery. I have the xenos books but admittedly have not read up on the necrons yet as I've been noodling guard this week and haven't really been following the leaks like I should have :(
You can bring multiple DDArks and/or Heavy Destroyers and try to pop a couple on T1. 60 Warriors with Crypteks might survive long enough to get downfield.
This is a list where you might actually want to get some melee units in. None of those vehicles Fly, so you can charge in, do no damage, but then tie up multiple tanks and force them to not shoot. Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs in high enough numbers maybe, all can get in and then draw fire or prevent it altogether.
You can also try Night Scythes with dudes inside. The tanks will be hitting on 4s (other than any Commanders), so only 5s against Scythes, so zoom em up, maybe try to plink off a couple wounds, and then dump Warrior/Immortal blobs.
It's actually not bad but you can't expect to kill even half of his stuff unless you're bringing like 4-6 DDArks.
Agree with this, bum rush them into combat, you will neuter half his armies shooting the turn you do that. Grand illusion 2x large scarab squads, get into combat t1, half his powers gone, and the vehicles are atrocious in combat, while your scarabs put out tonnes of attacks that always wound on 5+'s. Then hammer the backline with DDA and stalkers, or massed HD with a destroyer lord (although the vehicles will last longer, so probably best go that route until FW stuff comes out. Our answers to anti vehicle are in there.)
Ah yep, forgot about that. You could still run a list that just has 2x DDA, 2xStalkers, 2x Spyders with claws, 4 units of 9 scarabs and just bum rush him. Could add in the Grand Monolith charge combo but its pretty expensive. Over half the new maps have <24" no-mans land, some only 18", with a large movement on the scarabs means t1 charges arent even that unfeasable. With 36 scarab bases, 3" consolidation means they will have a HUGE footprint, and will be able to tie up an incredible amount of tanks, provided they havent been screened, which is unlikely in the list you're facing necron99.
Actually after thinking about that IG matchup I'm kind of interested in throwing together lists with Wraiths again. Min units, spammed out just to tie down everything in the game.
Until you run into DEldar/Harlequins and Titanic things that can just fall back and shoot (and maybe even charge) which suddenly makes it sorta pointless again. Doot doot.
necron99 wrote: From what I'm hearing in all of the other army specific threads the models we never really put much stock in are now the top dogs. Who would have thought the IG Taurox would be anything? I think I played my DDA once when they first came out and then promptly shelved it...now we're all thinking it's a good idea to bring 3 to a gun fight?
Yeah, if those those armoured assault boxes come back for Christmas I'm definitely picking up a few more.
Ohhhhhh For some reason I thought Night Scythes had to drop their cargo off further away from enemy units (as in, 9" or 12" or something). Yes, if they can drop off 1" right next to something and then charge in the charge phase, that'd be a great delivery system for the Scytheguard... but yeah, as pointed out above, the thing to be careful of would be the possibility of your opponent shooting all your planes out off the sky before your guys could get out. Yes, you can take multiple planes to make sure you cover redundancy, but at what point does the cost outweigh the potential benefit (these birds ain't cheap, after all). Let's say we take two 10 man Scytheguard and three Nightscythes. If you lose two flyers you can at least still "disembark" one of your reserved units, but then you risk losing the other one in the very likely event that they kill your last NS before your next turn. (also I'm still angry we can't take Anrakyr in ANY sort of transport method apart from the Deceiver. Where can we ask about stuff for the next FAQ?)
Maybe not a full commitment to Lychguard and Scythes would be a little more flexible?
Perhaps two scythes and a squad or two of Gauss Immortals which we could use to get up close in dakka range if needed would be useful. That way depending on the match up we could use the Lychguard in either a frontal assault or defensive deployment while using the scythes to position the Immortals in hard cover and let them rapid fire anything we need them too.
I don't know, man.
Looking at it again, knowing what I do now, I'm wondering if Speed Crons might be viable after all.
Night Scythes, Tomb Blades, Deathmarks. Just using lots of stuff that can be over on their side of the table whenever I need... but doesn't necessarily need to be turn one.
I feel the same way. Even if you use a more static core of Warriors with some help from the Deceiver they can definitely put pressure somewhere on the map.
So we had this conversation earlier in this thread. A lot of you seem to be suggesting Night Scythes as a melee delivery system. They are not.
The reason being is you CANNOT move with the unit that "disembarked" from the Night Scythe the turn it got out. The earliest you'd be able to move the unit would be turn 3 (Move NS, Invasion Beam out, move+charge unit) unless the opponent is graceful enough to put a unit within ~12" of the night scythe for you to charge at.
This is due to the reinforcements rule on page 177. The Night Scythe is not classified as a "transport" and thus is not actually using the Disembark rule.
Crossing my fingers this was overlooked, but as of right now that's how it works.
tman3257 wrote: So we had this conversation earlier in this thread. A lot of you seem to be suggesting Night Scythes as a melee delivery system. They are not.
The reason being is you CANNOT move with the unit that "disembarked" from the Night Scythe the turn it got out. The earliest you'd be able to move the unit would be turn 3 (Move NS, Invasion Beam out, move+charge unit) unless the opponent is graceful enough to put a unit within ~12" of the night scythe for you to charge at.
This is due to the reinforcements rule on page 177. The Night Scythe is not classified as a "transport" and thus is not actually using the Disembark rule.
Crossing my fingers this was overlooked, but as of right now that's how it works.
The only way is to deliver them with the Deceiver, right? And then put your trust in what would become a 9" charge (deceiver's 12" - night scythe's 3" = 9")
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something else, perhaps this was already covered, but our transports missing the "Transport" keyword, would that mean that they do not benefit deployment (with a reduction of deployed units), based on the wording in the GW "FAQ":
Ie, putting a unit on the tomb world would mean setting it up somewhere other than the battlefield, and thus is still a deployment choice?
A Monolith/Nightscythe and the unit they keep on the tomb world count as one deployment. It says on the sheet that they deploy at the same time.
Although you cant move after exiting our "transports" they can still be used to charge out of if you park them right in front of the enemy the turn before. They just need to survive.
tman3257 wrote: The reason being is you CANNOT move with the unit that "disembarked" from the Night Scythe the turn it got out.
Wasn't that just for MOVING? (as in, during the movement phase)
Could have sworn shooting and charging was still allowed.
The issue before was with the Deceiver Bomb:
The Night Scythes would be 12" away from the enemy because of Grand Illusion. If they got out 3" but then were not allowed to move up any further, that would be a 9" charge, which would make it an inefficient/risky tactic.
But if they're just coming out in turn two, the Night Scythe wouldn't need to be 12" away from the enemy. They could be right up close (up to an inch away). Granted, your opponent will likely have moved his stuff as far away from the Scythes as possible in his own movement phase, but it would still probably be closer than 12" (that's where multiple Scythes come in. Limit the places he can run, as the Lychguard can pop out of any of them).
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Praetorians x10 - 350
Doomsday Ark - 203
Doomsday Ark - 203
1996 points; 6 CP
I think this combines in a good way the 'best of' for the Necrons for me. There are a few good units like the Deciever/Nightbringer I've left out, but it seems difficult to fit a C'Tan in without compromising on bodies or firepower in the list.
I wrote off the Praetorians earlier, but I'm coming back around to them based on the sheer benefit of them having mobility from 10" move and FLY which seems too useful to overlook. They also fully interact with the list's choice of HQs which is a bonus. Being able to access MWBD/+1 Attack from Anrakyr and +1 to Resurrection rolls from Szeras is a nice bonus and makes me feel better about having them in the list too.
I feel like I'm missing something with Szeras, I see lots of people taking him and I can't see the point. His random buffs are all worse than a 5++ from a normal Cryptek (or Orikans improved version), with the possible exception of T5. You can get the 5++ on 3 units at deployment so it is working right from turn 1 even if you don't go first. Szeras will take 3 turns to buff the same amount of units with worse buffs. His shooty stick is decent I suppose.
tman3257 wrote: The reason being is you CANNOT move with the unit that "disembarked" from the Night Scythe the turn it got out.
Wasn't that just for MOVING? (as in, during the movement phase)
Could have sworn shooting and charging was still allowed.
The issue before was with the Deceiver Bomb:
The Night Scythes would be 12" away from the enemy because of Grand Illusion. If they got out 3" but then were not allowed to move up any further, that would be a 9" charge, which would make it an inefficient/risky tactic.
But if they're just coming out in turn two, the Night Scythe wouldn't need to be 12" away from the enemy. They could be right up close (up to an inch away). Granted, your opponent will likely have moved his stuff as far away from the Scythes as possible in his own movement phase, but it would still probably be closer than 12" (that's where multiple Scythes come in. Limit the places he can run, as the Lychguard can pop out of any of them).
The restriction is only for moving, you can still shoot and charge.
There is nothing that I can see that stops charges from happening when coming out of reserves and leaving a vehicle in 8th, unlike other editions which had a very clear restriction on the matter.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I feel like I'm missing something with Szeras, I see lots of people taking him and I can't see the point. His random buffs are all worse than a 5++ from a normal Cryptek (or Orikans improved version), with the possible exception of T5. You can get the 5++ on 3 units at deployment so it is working right from turn 1 even if you don't go first. Szeras will take 3 turns to buff the same amount of units with worse buffs. His shooty stick is decent I suppose.
5++ wasnt better. Immortals with 3 sv and +1 for cover never take 5++ roll. Almost never.
+1 BS was uniqe and very very good. Count how many hit you get from it.
Change T from 4 to 5 its also very good because most weapon are 4/5 S. You get -1 to wound hit agains troops.
+1 S wasnt good because troops arent cc, but with anrakyr its also work.
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Praetorians x10 - 350
Doomsday Ark - 203
Doomsday Ark - 203
1996 points; 6 CP
I think this combines in a good way the 'best of' for the Necrons for me. There are a few good units like the Deciever/Nightbringer I've left out, but it seems difficult to fit a C'Tan in without compromising on bodies or firepower in the list.
I wrote off the Praetorians earlier, but I'm coming back around to them based on the sheer benefit of them having mobility from 10" move and FLY which seems too useful to overlook. They also fully interact with the list's choice of HQs which is a bonus. Being able to access MWBD/+1 Attack from Anrakyr and +1 to Resurrection rolls from Szeras is a nice bonus and makes me feel better about having them in the list too.
Those Stalkers could do with Heavy Gauss Cannons (to help the Doomsday Arks better).
How exactly do you plan on using those HQ?
You said you intended on using them with the Praetorians, but these two are slow and Praets are fast... are you planning on hobbling the fast guys just so the slow guys can keep up?
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Praetorians x10 - 350
Doomsday Ark - 203
Doomsday Ark - 203
1996 points; 6 CP
I think this combines in a good way the 'best of' for the Necrons for me. There are a few good units like the Deciever/Nightbringer I've left out, but it seems difficult to fit a C'Tan in without compromising on bodies or firepower in the list.
I wrote off the Praetorians earlier, but I'm coming back around to them based on the sheer benefit of them having mobility from 10" move and FLY which seems too useful to overlook. They also fully interact with the list's choice of HQs which is a bonus. Being able to access MWBD/+1 Attack from Anrakyr and +1 to Resurrection rolls from Szeras is a nice bonus and makes me feel better about having them in the list too.
Those Stalkers could do with Heavy Gauss Cannons (to help the Doomsday Arks better).
How exactly do you plan on using those HQ?
You said you intended on using them with the Praetorians, but these two are slow and Praets are fast... are you planning on hobbling the fast guys just so the slow guys can keep up?
Good question. I prefer lychguard - more dmg with warscyte and cheeper.
Kuguar6 wrote: I prefer lychguard - more dmg with warscyte and cheeper.
The problem there is having to footslog them across the entire table if you want Anrakyr to go with them to give the +1 attack buff.
You could always just drop them off via Night Scythe, like we'd been discussing above, but then you've gotta be prepared to lose them to shooting right afterwards, as you more than likely wouldn't have been able to get a Cryptek to go with them (unless you gave him his own ride just so he could tag along).
Kuguar6 wrote: I prefer lychguard - more dmg with warscyte and cheeper.
The problem there is having to footslog them across the entire table if you want Anrakyr to go with them to give the +1 attack buff.
You could always just drop them off via Night Scythe, like we'd been discussing above, but then you've gotta be prepared to lose them to shooting right afterwards, as you more than likely wouldn't have been able to get a Cryptek to go with them (unless you gave him his own ride just so he could tag along).
I will use them like counter atack to guard my immortals. So only vs cc army. Also for guard my hq from non shooting dmg. I will take only 5. Its only 150 pts. For non cc army they arent worth even 150 but i think cc army are more dangerus in this edition.
I started perusing the necron book last night...QS is off the hook good and LM gives you back a wound every turn?! That's crazy talk! So what's every body's thoughts on the annibarge and ccb? Are they still competitive or is the AV13 wall of old relegated to DDA+Stalker combos? I'm not seeing a whole lot of love for the annibarge or ccb.
I've come around a bit on the Annibarge. It's not bad, but even with QS it's pretty squishy. Plenty of high strength or multi shot 1-2 damage weapons that will cut it down in a turn or two. But, it does have really good shooting.
Talked about it a few pages back, but for only ~20-30 points more you can get a Night Scythe, which loses the underslung gun but gains way better defenses and can sometimes transport things. So consider that tradeoff as well.
tman3257 wrote: So we had this conversation earlier in this thread. A lot of you seem to be suggesting Night Scythes as a melee delivery system. They are not.
The reason being is you CANNOT move with the unit that "disembarked" from the Night Scythe the turn it got out. The earliest you'd be able to move the unit would be turn 3 (Move NS, Invasion Beam out, move+charge unit) unless the opponent is graceful enough to put a unit within ~12" of the night scythe for you to charge at.
This is due to the reinforcements rule on page 177. The Night Scythe is not classified as a "transport" and thus is not actually using the Disembark rule.
Crossing my fingers this was overlooked, but as of right now that's how it works.
The only way is to deliver them with the Deceiver, right? And then put your trust in what would become a 9" charge (deceiver's 12" - night scythe's 3" = 9")
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something else, perhaps this was already covered, but our transports missing the "Transport" keyword, would that mean that they do not benefit deployment (with a reduction of deployed units), based on the wording in the GW "FAQ":
Ie, putting a unit on the tomb world would mean setting it up somewhere other than the battlefield, and thus is still a deployment choice?
The night scythe and monolith have special wording on them Quoting from the eternity gate:
"When you set up this model, at the same time you can also set up any number of <Dynasty> Infantry units on their tomb world.". Emphasis mine, so since it all happens at the same time it all happens within one drop. This puts tomb world reserves half way between summoning and deep strike. I hope that is something that will be expanded upon when we get a codex, maybe we will get full summoning for infantry, so we can pull out flayed ones or immortals or destroyers as needed.
Ooh Necron "summoning" sounds fun.
That would fit with the theme of them just pulling forces from their homeworld.
Hopefully we'll get a ground based teleporter as well instead of transports.
I really think they should just copy the Shaltari from Dropzone when designing Necron transports; instead of riding around in them Necrons should be able to use their tranports to instantly teleport around the table, from one vehicle to the next.
So I've been taking just the base size of Lychguard (w/ Warscythes) and keeping them behind my Zahndrekh & Orikan (which are behind blobs of Warriors). The spacing has allowed me to keep deep strikers from assaulting my characters. Also, their Guardian Protocols, snipers that target my characters are essentially negated. If the snipers land a single wound or two I usually let it go through to the character, and then recover it with Living Metal. Though when they land like 6 wounds, those Guardian Protocols really help out. In this situation, I can drop 3 Lychguard, saving the wounds from my characters, and then Orikan boosts their hopeful RP next turn.
Essentially, for 150 points, you can block rear deep strikers, negate snipers, and extend the Wounds of your characters. The best part is that those lost wounds potentially come back through RP, being more effective than Living Metal. Honestly, I think it's a very solid use of 150 points. Orikan also gives them the 5++. If they are assaulted, Zandrekh's MWBD gives them +1 attack, and TM can potentially give another +1 attack, meaning you've got a small squad with 4 attacks of S7 AP-4 D2.
Again, I know we've been on the fence about the usefulness of Lychguard, but for 150pts, I find the fact that they simply increase the wounds of your characters to be worth it on its own.
So I know the spyder is much different now than it used to be and the "scarab farm" list is pretty much over.
But is there any way to adapt a similar list in 8th edition?
With everything dealing out so many wounds now, it's an interesting thought to have giant blobs of scarabs rushing the enemy and soaking up wounds.
The thought of choking the board with the little buggers and tying up all the enemies forces soaking up shot after shot while our footsolders and armor slowly creep in to finish the job is very enticing
Well at 4 wounds a spider isnt all that hard to kill. and scarab hive seems to be a unit thing instead of a model thing so one unit of spiders will only ever bring back 1 model to a scarab swarm.
i think it might be cool with double P beams.
a unit of 3 is putting out 18 S6 shots at 24"
though at bs 4
but besides all of that it is nice to be able to deny the witch with gloom prisms.
Spyders combo with scarabs and DDA. Give DDA much more durability. Scarabs shield from deep strikes and charges. Spyder are good in cc vs some smaller cc unit and can repair Ark.
Essentially, for 150 points, you can block rear deep strikers, negate snipers, and extend the Wounds of your characters. The best part is that those lost wounds potentially come back through RP, being more effective than Living Metal. Honestly, I think it's a very solid use of 150 points. Orikan also gives them the 5++. If they are assaulted, Zandrekh's MWBD gives them +1 attack, and TM can potentially give another +1 attack, meaning you've got a small squad with 4 attacks of S7 AP-4 D2.
Spyder is dead to me. Scarab Hive getting nurfed to not allow more than the starting amount of Scarabs hurts.
At 4 wounds it's terribly weak and easily dispatched. Ideally you'd surround it with Scarabs so it wasn't targeted, and you'd advance the Spyder each turn to try and keep up with the Scarabs. Since you have to advance, you probably do not want to spend the 20pts on Particle Beamers, otherwise they'd be hitting on 5+ which is just not good.
The base point cost is 76, and for 5 points you'd be crazy to not include the Gloom Prism. So the base model is looking to be 81 points (89pts if you are running vehicles and want to throw on the Fabricator Claw). For 78 points you can just field an extra 6 Scarabs.
I just don't see it as very viable. I'm sad because I just bought a Spyder a couple weeks before 8th release... but I just don't see it being worth it. The only way I see it being worth it is if you surround it with at least 4 units of Scarabs Then if you can revive 2 scarabs in each unit, it's made itself worth it.
Mathammer says spyder have one of best dmg per point in necron list but his dmg is split into shooting and cc. He also have 3 unique ability. Its worth his price byt only if you can use all his powers.
Essentially, for 150 points, you can block rear deep strikers, negate snipers, and extend the Wounds of your characters. The best part is that those lost wounds potentially come back through RP, being more effective than Living Metal. Honestly, I think it's a very solid use of 150 points. Orikan also gives them the 5++. If they are assaulted, Zandrekh's MWBD gives them +1 attack, and TM can potentially give another +1 attack, meaning you've got a small squad with 4 attacks of S7 AP-4 D2.
What is TM? How give him 4th A?
Transient Madness. It's Zahndrekh's unique ability. Basically at the start of your turn, you roll a D3, refer to a bonus table, and then decide on a unit to get the bonus until the start of your next turn. On a 1, a selected unit gets +1 attacks. On a 2, a selected unit improves BS by 1 (BS 3+ becomes 2+). On a 3, a selected unit gets to re-roll failed charge rolls.
So basically you hit the Lychguard with My Will Be Done for the first extra attack, and then hope to roll a 1 on Transient Madness and then give it to your Lychguard for the second extra attack. If you roll a 2 you'd just give it to another unit that shoots. You could give the 3 roll to the Lychguard if the deep strikers didn't assault and you want to assault them. It's a 1/3 chance of getting that 4th attack, but the other 2/3 chance rolls are useful as well.
Kuguar6 wrote:Mathammer says spyder have one of best dmg per point in necron list but his dmg is split into shooting and cc. He also have 3 unique ability. Its worth his price byt only if you can use all his powers.
The only issue is that anyone can just up and shoot them. They might ignore them in favor of more immediate threats, but they're really easy to kill once focused.
Essentially, for 150 points, you can block rear deep strikers, negate snipers, and extend the Wounds of your characters. The best part is that those lost wounds potentially come back through RP, being more effective than Living Metal. Honestly, I think it's a very solid use of 150 points. Orikan also gives them the 5++. If they are assaulted, Zandrekh's MWBD gives them +1 attack, and TM can potentially give another +1 attack, meaning you've got a small squad with 4 attacks of S7 AP-4 D2.
What is TM? How give him 4th A?
Transient Madness. It's Zahndrekh's unique ability. Basically at the start of your turn, you roll a D3, refer to a bonus table, and then decide on a unit to get the bonus until the start of your next turn. On a 1, a selected unit gets +1 attacks. On a 2, a selected unit improves BS by 1 (BS 3+ becomes 2+). On a 3, a selected unit gets to re-roll failed charge rolls.
So basically you hit the Lychguard with My Will Be Done for the first extra attack, and then hope to roll a 1 on Transient Madness and then give it to your Lychguard for the second extra attack. If you roll a 2 you'd just give it to another unit that shoots. You could give the 3 roll to the Lychguard if the deep strikers didn't assault and you want to assault them. It's a 1/3 chance of getting that 4th attack, but the other 2/3 chance rolls are useful as well.
MWBD doesn't give an extra attack. It only gives +1 to hit.
Essentially, for 150 points, you can block rear deep strikers, negate snipers, and extend the Wounds of your characters. The best part is that those lost wounds potentially come back through RP, being more effective than Living Metal. Honestly, I think it's a very solid use of 150 points. Orikan also gives them the 5++. If they are assaulted, Zandrekh's MWBD gives them +1 attack, and TM can potentially give another +1 attack, meaning you've got a small squad with 4 attacks of S7 AP-4 D2.
What is TM? How give him 4th A?
Transient Madness. It's Zahndrekh's unique ability. Basically at the start of your turn, you roll a D3, refer to a bonus table, and then decide on a unit to get the bonus until the start of your next turn. On a 1, a selected unit gets +1 attacks. On a 2, a selected unit improves BS by 1 (BS 3+ becomes 2+). On a 3, a selected unit gets to re-roll failed charge rolls.
So basically you hit the Lychguard with My Will Be Done for the first extra attack, and then hope to roll a 1 on Transient Madness and then give it to your Lychguard for the second extra attack. If you roll a 2 you'd just give it to another unit that shoots. You could give the 3 roll to the Lychguard if the deep strikers didn't assault and you want to assault them. It's a 1/3 chance of getting that 4th attack, but the other 2/3 chance rolls are useful as well.
Ok, i dont think about Zahndrekh with Anrakyr. Both are too expensive. MWBD dont get +1A. Anrakyr only have such aura.
I really felt the same way at first Shadowstrike, but I've come around on them. Since our vehicles are no longer trash the fabricator claw array can very quickly earn the spyders points back. Deny the witch is much easier to pull off so so the gloom prism is a worthwhile investment. The ability to replace a scarab base for each unit of scarabs near by can get a lot more mileage out of screens. Finally the twin particle beamers is a fair amount of firepower.
My only real complaint is that if I buy three of them they have to stick together as a unit rather than being able to split off after deployment.
Desubot wrote: The P beam is assault 3 how are you hitting on 5s
you cant screen spiders because they are not characters.
you could reasonably hide them behind a monolith but thats about it
Because to make the Spyder (M6") keep up with the Scarabs (M10"), you'd be advancing the Spyder. Sure you can JUST move once with the Spyder, and his 6" aura would cover the 4" movement difference once, but after that you'll want to advance the Spyder to keep up. While the Particle Beamer is Assault 3, you must still -1 from the To Hit roll when you advance. Since the Spyder's BS is 4+, if you advance, it now becomes 5+ to hit. To me that's not great for S6 AP0 D1.
Sorry for my wording being unclear. I didn't mean to surround the Spyder to screen. I mean to surround it so that they all remain within 6" for the Scarab Hive ability.
dunno though i like the idea of using spiders and scarabs more for holding objectives or counter back line droppers anyway. scarabs wont really doooo anything definitely not like they used to anyway. but they are low profile, get them behind a low wall with an objective and it will force the opponent to react or otherwise abandon a part of the table.
Essentially, for 150 points, you can block rear deep strikers, negate snipers, and extend the Wounds of your characters. The best part is that those lost wounds potentially come back through RP, being more effective than Living Metal. Honestly, I think it's a very solid use of 150 points. Orikan also gives them the 5++. If they are assaulted, Zandrekh's MWBD gives them +1 attack, and TM can potentially give another +1 attack, meaning you've got a small squad with 4 attacks of S7 AP-4 D2.
What is TM? How give him 4th A?
Transient Madness. It's Zahndrekh's unique ability. Basically at the start of your turn, you roll a D3, refer to a bonus table, and then decide on a unit to get the bonus until the start of your next turn. On a 1, a selected unit gets +1 attacks. On a 2, a selected unit improves BS by 1 (BS 3+ becomes 2+). On a 3, a selected unit gets to re-roll failed charge rolls.
So basically you hit the Lychguard with My Will Be Done for the first extra attack, and then hope to roll a 1 on Transient Madness and then give it to your Lychguard for the second extra attack. If you roll a 2 you'd just give it to another unit that shoots. You could give the 3 roll to the Lychguard if the deep strikers didn't assault and you want to assault them. It's a 1/3 chance of getting that 4th attack, but the other 2/3 chance rolls are useful as well.
MWBD doesn't give an extra attack. It only gives +1 to hit.
Ah yes that's correct. I messed that bit up. Still, hitting on 2+ with those Scythes is nice. Not as nice as an extra attack as I thought, but still aright. The biggest value to me is just the extra wounds for your characters.
Anrakyr gets you that extra attack, perhaps you had your HQs confused
Automatically Appended Next Post: This has perhaps been covered, but can the C'Tans use their powers even if within 1" of an enemy? What about gaze of death in that regard?
torblind wrote: Anrakyr gets you that extra attack, perhaps you had your HQs confused
Automatically Appended Next Post: This has perhaps been covered, but can the C'Tans use their powers even if within 1" of an enemy? What about gaze of death in that regard?
Ctans powers can. Just can use in every shooting phase. Its not a shooting atack.
Gaze of death cant. Its normal shooting weapon.
vipoid wrote: I have to say, I'm pretty worried about mobility in this edition.
My current army is basically:
Battalion - Destroyer Lord
- Overlord
- Cryptek
- 15 Warriors
- 15 Warriors
- 10 Immortals
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 4 Scarabs
The Warriors and Immortals go with the Overlord and Cryptek, the Destroyers go with the D. Lord.
Here's the thing - this basically gives me just 2 blocks of units, and only the Destroyers have decent movement.
It seems like I'll really struggle with both mobility and board control. Am I worrying about nothing or is this a legitimate concern?
Also, if it is a legitimate concern, do you have any advice in terms of what I could do to fix it? Are Praetorians or Wraiths any good?
I think you dont need overlord. MWBD give you only 5 immortals. Better take more immortals. Overlord are slow and have only 12" range. In cc this formation die. So you dont wont hit him anything whole game.
For mobility we have new deep strike and teleports. 3 type of teleports. All are expensive.
I play wraiths and they weeknes are mortal wounds. Most army have some - like nightbringer and deathmarks.
Maybe boost Praetorians can be better but almost all hq are slower...
I think missing out on 2 tesla shots is well worth the toughness and wounds and invulnerable save and counter assault power that comes with an overlord, but he's only worth 5 immortals worth of shooting if he's buffing a full unit of 10 immortals so there's not a lot of redundancy in the list for when that squad takes some hits and he starts only being worth like 3 immortals or 4 warriors instead. Keeping him or trading him out for more bodies are both pretty valid for the list.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:I feel like I'm missing something with Szeras,
Spoiler:
I see lots of people taking him and I can't see the point. His random buffs are all worse than a 5++ from a normal Cryptek (or Orikans improved version), with the possible exception of T5. You can get the 5++ on 3 units at deployment so it is working right from turn 1 even if you don't go first. Szeras will take 3 turns to buff the same amount of units with worse buffs. His shooty stick is decent I suppose.
I like the 5++ with Warriors and/or Destroyers, but I feel i don't need it with just Immortals and their 3+. Even without cover, it's taking -3 AP weapons to make a difference, mainly Eldar - and if they're targetting Immortals over the Triach or DDA I'll live with it.
He's got a pocket brightlance which is really good given how starved we are for that sort of AT. His RP boost is the only one that can affect my Praets if it comes to that. He has an extra wound 4->5 so he can't get sniped as easily. He's not a complete moron in close combat compared to a regular Cryptek, which will probably happen most games. The augmentation is really a nice cherry on top of that.
I just don't rate the 5++ unless it's Warrior spam, and without the need for that I rate him over his direct point swap in Orikan.
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Praetorians x10 - 350
Doomsday Ark - 203
Doomsday Ark - 203
1996 points; 6 CP
I think this combines in a good way the 'best of' for the Necrons for me. There are a few good units like the Deciever/Nightbringer I've left out, but it seems difficult to fit a C'Tan in without compromising on bodies or firepower in the list.
I wrote off the Praetorians earlier, but I'm coming back around to them based on the sheer benefit of them having mobility from 10" move and FLY which seems too useful to overlook. They also fully interact with the list's choice of HQs which is a bonus. Being able to access MWBD/+1 Attack from Anrakyr and +1 to Resurrection rolls from Szeras is a nice bonus and makes me feel better about having them in the list too.
Those Stalkers could do with Heavy Gauss Cannons (to help the Doomsday Arks better).
How exactly do you plan on using those HQ?
You said you intended on using them with the Praetorians, but these two are slow and Praets are fast... are you planning on hobbling the fast guys just so the slow guys can keep up?
Well it's flexible depending on enemy list - CC horde and I'll try to get in as much shooting as possible, with a gunline I might doubletime it up first turn with the Immortals to close distance asap - but otherwise the idea is just to advance on them while shooting, and finish whats left in assault as needed.
The Praetorians will stick with the Immortals/HQs for the first turn or two, unlikely I strategically need to send them gunning forward ASAP as a first wave. They're my firefighters/cleanup crew.
Edit: oh yeah the Heat Ray, I can drop one Immortal unit to 9 to have enough points for two twin Heavy Gauss upgrades, or go for one HG/one Particle Shredder and keep 3x10, but I want to give the Heat Rays a good test, I think they have some merit given I likely often want to move my Stalkers forward aggressively in support of my Infantry.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:I feel like I'm missing something with Szeras,
Spoiler:
I see lots of people taking him and I can't see the point. His random buffs are all worse than a 5++ from a normal Cryptek (or Orikans improved version), with the possible exception of T5. You can get the 5++ on 3 units at deployment so it is working right from turn 1 even if you don't go first. Szeras will take 3 turns to buff the same amount of units with worse buffs. His shooty stick is decent I suppose.
I like the 5++ with Warriors and/or Destroyers, but I feel i don't need it with just Immortals and their 3+. Even without cover, it's taking -3 AP weapons to make a difference, mainly Eldar - and if they're targetting Immortals over the Triach or DDA I'll live with it.
He's got a pocket brightlance which is really good given how starved we are for that sort of AT. His RP boost is the only one that can affect my Praets if it comes to that. He has an extra wound 4->5 so he can't get sniped as easily. He's not a complete moron in close combat compared to a regular Cryptek, which will probably happen most games. The augmentation is really a nice cherry on top of that.
Yeah these are the exact reasons I'm painting my Szeras right now lol
Isn't the Tesseract Vault a quite decent horde killer?
I was just thinking...
If it fires 3 seismic assault at a horde, its killing 50% flat.
20 tesla S7 shots will take off another 9-11 wounds, depending ont he thickness of their T-shirts.
That should decimate most viable horde units, should it not? Leaving what remains to be managable by a not too large mop-up crew. That goes some way to win those 500 points back.
Should it come back next turn in a crippled state (It would require around 5 wounding las cannons), it could still cast 2 seismic assaults on the next horde unit (killing 33%), and tesla killing 7-9 wounds with reduced BS, perhaps 2 mop-up crews then to clean up those remains.
Should it come out still humming after 2 turns, its C'Tan powers make it quiite versatile for targeting other types of units, and S7 tesla would take on most things up to T6 with decent results.
If you bring a spyder it would recover on average 3 wounds every turn, negating one lascannon wound each turn.
Now if you bring 2 vaults, how fun wouldn't that be.
I'm not fluent in Ork, but wouldn't their mob rule soon disappear leaving a quite ugly morale test to take care of remains too?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: Checking the ork mob rule - essentially every kill after 50% + d6 models, comes with a bonus morale casualty as well. Synapse and Commisars won't be that easy, but at least its something
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit2: Ah. If it fires its C'Tan powers in sequence, its no longer 50% flat but around 42%, bummer.
I know everyone (including me!) is excited about the utility of Crypteks now, but doing some mathcraft on it suggests these things are probably overcosted for their RP enhancement?
1/6 of the time they make the difference between a successful RP and not. Which means, the following number of resurrection attempts would be required before a sufficient number of points have been resurrected to make him worth it (at 104 points, assuming Staff of Light equipped): [104 / (Model Point Cost * (1/6))]
(Remember that one dead model on turn one could make up to 6 RP attempts across a 7 turn game.)
The invulnerable save kicks in when a model would be denied a 5+ or 6+ only, and can only really be evaluated depending on the meta/match. Given that this kicks in for Warriors at AP -2 and for the rest of the above at AP -3, if for simplicity we assume all of the below shots are at AP -3 and then AP -4, then the following number of wounds are required for the Cryptek to be worth it:
AP-3: [104 / (Model Point Cost * (1/6))]
AP-4: [104 / (Model Point Cost * (1/3))]
Warriors (get the better equation at AP-3): 25 wounds
Immortals: 37 and 19 wounds
Destroyers (only get one third of the benefit since only the last wound matters): 42 wounds and 21 wounds
Heavy Destroyers: 24 wounds and 12 wounds
Ironically, the Cryptek's own ++ ability hurts the points effectiveness of its RP ability; i.e., the more work his ++ ability does, the fewer RP attempts you are making. The corollary is that the less AP you have against you, the less likely his RP ability will be triggered AND the less his ++ ability will trigger.
Consequentially, a base Cryptek + SoL is unlikely to be worth the points it costs and other relevant abilities on other HQs should be considered.
Someone please tell me I'm wrong, though, because I lub mah Crypteks!
I think so much of every unit's value is in being able to make RP rolls at all that zooming out to look at the cryptek paying for itself in literal attempt rolls isn't the complete picture. Really anything you can do to stop yourself from losing your last model in a unit is very strong, and the cryptek stops that up front with a 5++ (or sometimes 5 toughness) or from attrition with the 4+ RP roll sometimes giving you the crucial 1 or 2 models you need to stop from being wiped out the following turn. To measure the cryptek's value then you'd have to figure out the likelihood he's responsible for a unit surviving where it wouldn't otherwise and then give him credit for the entire unit, but that likelihood changes so drastically based on what army you're against and who is piloting that army and how you're piloting your army it seems kinda impossible to quantify. Is he better than 8 and a half warriors or 6 immortals or 1 and a half destroyers or whatever else? That's something we're more likely to come to a conclusion about through experience rather than through mathhammer.
Crypteks and Ghost Arks together change that math a bit, at least for Warriors. Together that's 75% RP every turn. Adding rolls buffed by the Cryptek help his value too.
Also, the entirety of the Cryptek's value isn't in the number of RP rolls, he also has the staff and whatnot. just to ballpark a figure, maybe we say 85% of his value is in RP? Beyond that, I think it's hard to value the 5++ out of context. For example, in a SIlver Tide list that's entirely 1W and QS models, there's significant value in denying the effectiveness of high-AP, multi-wound weaponry, and the 5++ is part of that.
I'm not disagreeing with your math, per se, just suggesting that the issue is a little more granular.
torblind wrote: Isn't the Tesseract Vault a quite decent horde killer?
I was just thinking...
If it fires 3 seismic assault at a horde, its killing 50% flat.
20 tesla S7 shots will take off another 9-11 wounds, depending ont he thickness of their T-shirts.
That should decimate most viable horde units, should it not? Leaving what remains to be managable by a not too large mop-up crew. That goes some way to win those 500 points back.
Should it come back next turn in a crippled state (It would require around 5 wounding las cannons), it could still cast 2 seismic assaults on the next horde unit (killing 33%), and tesla killing 7-9 wounds with reduced BS, perhaps 2 mop-up crews then to clean up those remains.
Should it come out still humming after 2 turns, its C'Tan powers make it quiite versatile for targeting other types of units, and S7 tesla would take on most things up to T6 with decent results.
If you bring a spyder it would recover on average 3 wounds every turn, negating one lascannon wound each turn.
Now if you bring 2 vaults, how fun wouldn't that be.
I'm not fluent in Ork, but wouldn't their mob rule soon disappear leaving a quite ugly morale test to take care of remains too?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: Checking the ork mob rule - essentially every kill after 50% + d6 models, comes with a bonus morale casualty as well. Synapse and Commisars won't be that easy, but at least its something
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit2: Ah. If it fires its C'Tan powers in sequence, its no longer 50% flat but around 42%, bummer.
I do mathammer for all necrons and count hit per point, meel hit per point and shoot hit per point. Its anti hord best stats. Teserect value have one of less dmg per value stats... Best are scarabs, warriors for 12" and immortals with tessla for 24".
I dont count ctans power. Its hard becouse you dont know how many model in unit opponent take. We can take take scarabs swarm army with 3 model in every unit.
I do mathammer for all necrons and count hit per point, meel hit per point and shoot hit per point. Its anti hord best stats. Teserect value have one of less dmg per value stats... Best are scarabs, warriors for 12" and immortals with tessla for 24".
I dont count ctans power. Its hard becouse you dont know how many model in unit opponent take. We can take take scarabs swarm army with 3 model in every unit.
For a weapon that could kill 25 out of 50 conscripts, that's hardly fair, is it?
Outrider - Destroyer Lord
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 4 Scarabs
Try this setup instead. Gives you an extra CP.
Ah, I hadn't noticed that. Cheers.
skoffs wrote: I give Destroyer Lords the Staff, as their power only affects shooting. Overlords get Warscythes, as their 2+ to hit is going to be great with it.
I don't know if it matters, but math would suggest that Destroyer Lords are actually score more hits in melee than Overlords. They only hit on a 3+, sure, but they reroll 1s (so 14/18 compared to the Overlord's 15/18) and they have 4 attacks instead of 3. The D. Lord is looking at 3.1 hits, whilst the Overlord will only get 2.5.
vipoid wrote: I don't know if it matters, but math would suggest that Destroyer Lords are actually score more hits in melee than Overlords. They only hit on a 3+, sure, but they reroll 1s (so 14/18 compared to the Overlord's 15/18) and they have 4 attacks instead of 3. The D. Lord is looking at 3.1 hits, whilst the Overlord will only get 2.5.
Oh wow, how did I miss that D.Lords have 4 attacks now!
That's pretty cool... though the Staff is hardly garbage.
What's the math look like for him?
In a full turn (shooting and melee) what work out to be best on a Destroyer Lord?:
- 3 S5 AP-2 shots (rerolling 1s to hit and to wound) plus 4 S5 AP-2 attacks (rerolling 1s to hit)
- 4 S7 AP-4 attacks (rerolling 1s to hit)
I like the 5++ with Warriors and/or Destroyers, but I feel i don't need it with just Immortals and their 3+. Even without cover, it's taking -3 AP weapons to make a difference, mainly Eldar - and if they're targetting Immortals over the Triach or DDA I'll live with it.
He's got a pocket brightlance which is really good given how starved we are for that sort of AT. His RP boost is the only one that can affect my Praets if it comes to that. He has an extra wound 4->5 so he can't get sniped as easily. He's not a complete moron in close combat compared to a regular Cryptek, which will probably happen most games. The augmentation is really a nice cherry on top of that.
I just don't rate the 5++ unless it's Warrior spam, and without the need for that I rate him over his direct point swap in Orikan.
As someone above was saying, anything that increases the durability of RP units is incredibly valuable. If you can prevent a unit from being wiped out in one turn it makes a huge difference. Aside form adding to the RP roll, Szeras can't be relied upon to do anything to increase the durability of the units around him. You can quite easily go two or three turns without seeing the toughness buff, and even then it only effects one unit, so the opponent can target a different one. Szeras will help you RP if you survive but otherwise gives a modest boost to your offence, Orikan and Crypeks boost defense which, given the nature of RP, is worth more.
How useful the 5++ is depends on what you're facing. In my experience it is used all the time, every turn. When a unit with RP is reduce to a few models your opponent really should be shooting everything they have to finish them off. This includes high AP multi damage weapons (especially with how QS makes them a poor choice against our vehicles). In fact, when combined with QS on all vehicles, a 5++ save on your infantry can render all of your opponents high powered weapons a waste of points.
In CC is where the 5++ becomes really important, so I would always take Orikan (he's worth it for the 6" bubble and improved stats anyway). It effectively neuters any powerful characters and Monsters trying to munch through your infantry. Those 6 powerful attacks hitting on 2+ will kill 2 or 3, preventing morale tests from killing more.
Immortals are probably the sweet spot for Szeras as you say (to be clear; I'm commenting on the usefulness of the various Crypteks in general rather than in your list specifically). Warriors are more likely to have their armor ignored and Destroyers and Lychguard are the Ideal target for high AP multi damage weapons. I particularly like the 5++ for Lychguard as it means you can run the cheaper and more killy Warscythes without losing much defense.
I don't find cover easy to get on multiple units of Immortals due to the need for the phalanx to stick together. If one unit is in cover the next one is likely to be in the gap between terrain features, and they're the one that will get shot.
TLDR:
-Orikan and Crypteks increase the defense of multiple units right from deployment, compounding the effect of the 4+ RP.
-A 5++ provides synergy with QS to deny appropriate targets for the opponents most powerful weapons.
Whats the mathhammer on 20 warriors in rapid-fire with 2+ BS (using Szeras +1 BS if lucky or a MWBD vis Overlord, Zahndrekh etc) with re-rolling hit rolls of 1 if the stalker as hit the enemy unit before hand vs 10 Immortals with Gauss using 2+ BS and re-rolling hit rolls of 1?
Actually, are there any comprehensive mathhammer resources that are recognized as being the best to use right now for 8th?
There's the one linked in the top post of page 1 in this thread, but I don't know if there's been another one out since then that might be better to use.
(really want to figure out which weapon puts out the best damage for a D.Lord)
vipoid wrote: I don't know if it matters, but math would suggest that Destroyer Lords are actually score more hits in melee than Overlords. They only hit on a 3+, sure, but they reroll 1s (so 14/18 compared to the Overlord's 15/18) and they have 4 attacks instead of 3. The D. Lord is looking at 3.1 hits, whilst the Overlord will only get 2.5.
Oh wow, how did I miss that D.Lords have 4 attacks now!
That's pretty cool... though the Staff is hardly garbage.
What's the math look like for him?
In a full turn (shooting and melee) what work out to be best on a Destroyer Lord?:
- 3 S5 AP-2 shots (rerolling 1s to hit and to wound) plus 4 S5 AP-2 attacks (rerolling 1s to hit)
- 4 S7 AP-4 attacks (rerolling 1s to hit)
Against anything with 2+ wounds, I think the Warscythe is going to come out on top.
Against toughness 4-6 with an armour save of 3+ or worse, the Warscythe will average 4.1 wounds against multi-wound models (~2 wounds against 1-wound models), and 3.1 against T7+ targets (~1.5 against 1-wound models).
The SoL is more complicated. Ignoring armour saves for a moment, it averages 3.9 wounds against T3-4. However, against tougher targets this quickly falls away - the SoL averages 2.9 wounds against T5 targets (which are quite common now) and a mere 1.9 against T6 targets. However, it only ignores saves of 5+ or worse. Against 3+ saves, it scores 2.6 wounds against T4, 1.9 wounds against T5 and 1.3 wounds against T6+ targets.
This is based on some quick math (I haven't done an entire spreadsheet). However, the Staff of Light is looking like a rather niche weapon. It's better against GEQ and slightly better against MEQ, but against most other targets it's going to be worse. The poor AP really lets it down and rerolling 1s is nice when you're wounding on 3s, but becomes far less relevant when you're wounding on 4s or 5s.
I think I'd lean towards the warscythe. Especially given that it's the cheaper option.
I like the 5++ with Warriors and/or Destroyers, but I feel i don't need it with just Immortals and their 3+. Even without cover, it's taking -3 AP weapons to make a difference, mainly Eldar - and if they're targetting Immortals over the Triach or DDA I'll live with it.
He's got a pocket brightlance which is really good given how starved we are for that sort of AT. His RP boost is the only one that can affect my Praets if it comes to that. He has an extra wound 4->5 so he can't get sniped as easily. He's not a complete moron in close combat compared to a regular Cryptek, which will probably happen most games. The augmentation is really a nice cherry on top of that.
I just don't rate the 5++ unless it's Warrior spam, and without the need for that I rate him over his direct point swap in Orikan.
As someone above was saying, anything that increases the durability of RP units is incredibly valuable. If you can prevent a unit from being wiped out in one turn it makes a huge difference. Aside form adding to the RP roll, Szeras can't be relied upon to do anything to increase the durability of the units around him. You can quite easily go two or three turns without seeing the toughness buff, and even then it only effects one unit, so the opponent can target a different one. Szeras will help you RP if you survive but otherwise gives a modest boost to your offence, Orikan and Crypeks boost defense which, given the nature of RP, is worth more.
How useful the 5++ is depends on what you're facing. In my experience it is used all the time, every turn. When a unit with RP is reduce to a few models your opponent really should be shooting everything they have to finish them off. This includes high AP multi damage weapons (especially with how QS makes them a poor choice against our vehicles). In fact, when combined with QS on all vehicles, a 5++ save on your infantry can render all of your opponents high powered weapons a waste of points.
In CC is where the 5++ becomes really important, so I would always take Orikan (he's worth it for the 6" bubble and improved stats anyway). It effectively neuters any powerful characters and Monsters trying to munch through your infantry. Those 6 powerful attacks hitting on 2+ will kill 2 or 3, preventing morale tests from killing more.
Immortals are probably the sweet spot for Szeras as you say (to be clear; I'm commenting on the usefulness of the various Crypteks in general rather than in your list specifically). Warriors are more likely to have their armor ignored and Destroyers and Lychguard are the Ideal target for high AP multi damage weapons. I particularly like the 5++ for Lychguard as it means you can run the cheaper and more killy Warscythes without losing much defense.
I don't find cover easy to get on multiple units of Immortals due to the need for the phalanx to stick together. If one unit is in cover the next one is likely to be in the gap between terrain features, and they're the one that will get shot.
TLDR:
-Orikan and Crypteks increase the defense of multiple units right from deployment, compounding the effect of the 4+ RP.
-A 5++ provides synergy with QS to deny appropriate targets for the opponents most powerful weapons.
I agree with the strength of the Cryptek/Orikan, especially for multiwounders like Lychguard and Destroyers. Everything you said is right.
The list I built was designed around not having it though. I'm honestly not fussed around the Szeras buffs he hands out, they're a bonus, so the RNG doesn't bother me there. He's mainly there for extra shooting and to improve the RP of the Triach Praetorians from 5+ to 4+ (which neither of the other Crypteks can help with).
If the enemy army has the firepower turn one to remove a unit of Immortals from the board, that's 'ok'. The list is designed as such that that isn"t a critical point of failure. It's less than 10% of the army at 170 points. The full squad of Praetorians alone are worth more than two Immortal squads.
vipoid wrote: By the way, regarding the CCB, is it worth considering to accompany a unit of destroyers?
Granted, it can only buff one unit, but it will make them hit on a 2+ rerolling 1s.
Well its fragile, not a character so its getting gunned down fast. The destroyer lord is a character, so can hide behind the others, also buffs an aura, so more than one unit. Putting two buffing models on them is probably a bit much, and between the two im pretty sure the destroyer lord will come out as the best option.
Looking at it again, A Stalker with HGC is 181 points. A Doomsday Ark is 203 points. The Stalker helps make the DDA more accurate, yes... but for only like 20 points more you can just get a second DDA. Increasing the efficiency of a thing's firepower usually isn't as good as straight up doubling it.
So maybe the Stalker isn't exactly required if fielding Doomsday Arks. Maybe instead of the one-of-each heavy weapons combo, we just pay the extra 20 something points and just take double DDAs.
(unless someone's done some mathhammering on this and found those two units working in tandem really are worth the investment)
Stalker are two Heavy Destroyers and has own shoot power.
He also boost troops and other. Best for boost tesla. After reroll 1 you can still get 6+ bonus.
skoffs wrote: Looking at it again,
A Stalker with HGC is 181 points.
A Doomsday Ark is 203 points.
The Stalker helps make the DDA more accurate, yes... but for only like 20 points more you can just get a second DDA. Increasing the efficiency of a thing's firepower usually isn't as good as straight up doubling it.
So maybe the Stalker isn't exactly required if fielding Doomsday Arks.
Maybe instead of the one-of-each heavy weapons combo, we just pay the extra 20 something points and just take double DDAs.
(unless someone's done some mathhammering on this and found those two units working in tandem really are worth the investment)
Yea, you want a tarpit screening unit gone? point the stalker it at it, then 10 tesla immortals with MWBD
More versatile and gives more tactical flexibility for cheaper, with a similar gun.
Had a thought, how do you measure the 'base' of a triarch stalker? Like for the purposes of not coming within 1" of an enemy model.
Could you kinda mother hen a unit of immortals under a stalker's skirt thanks to spider legs and force the opponent to declare a multi charge to get up under there to get at the unit? Then they take overwatch from the stalker too and targeting relay says it applies to all shots fired at that target in the same phase which includes the fight phase where OW happens, so they get blasted by a particle shredder overwatch then tesla overwatch with rerolling 1s then have to get smacked around by the massive forelimbs in the fight.
Could you kinda mother hen a unit of immortals under a stalker's skirt thanks to spider legs and force the opponent to declare a multi charge to get up under there to get at the unit? Then they take overwatch from the stalker too and targeting relay says it applies to all shots fired at that target in the same phase which includes the fight phase where OW happens, so they get blasted by a particle shredder overwatch then tesla overwatch with rerolling 1s then have to get smacked around by the massive forelimbs in the fight.
I suspect this would be disallowed (even if it's by means of someone chucking a rulebook at your head), but I love the idea.
Sadly, I can't even attempt this because mine is made from a CCB and various Tyranid bits, so it's a lot closer to the ground than the proper model.
It's only something like 5 savable wounds total difference if you add the stalker's weapon, the rerolls, and the forelimbs but i mean if you're already walking a 24" weapon stalker up with your phalanx its kinda free value to have it sitting on top of your unit instead of behind or to the side since templates aren't a thing anymore.
Pylon is good. Heat Ray is best Sentry Pylon. Acanthrites might be good if they were cheaper. Characters are alright, not auto take but pretty good (Kutlakh makes Lychguard pretty great). Both millipedes are solid picks. Tesseract Ark is good but a bit on the expensive side imo (but not too much). Bomber is interesting but I wouldn't use it.
Overall looks good, might supplement existing Crons quite well. Might be buying some Resin this year.
Me and my fellow cron mate plays RP. That all wounds come back on each fig if they come back.
We take it as it say comes back (whole) not comes back with 1 wound or d3 wounds
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote: New FW rules up on /tg/, can't reup right now.
Pylon is good. Heat Ray is best Sentry Pylon. Acanthrites might be good if they were cheaper. Characters are alright, not auto take but pretty good (Kutlakh makes Lychguard pretty great). Both millipedes are solid picks. Tesseract Ark is good but a bit on the expensive side imo (but not too much). Bomber is interesting but I wouldn't use it.
Overall looks good, might supplement existing Crons quite well. Might be buying some Resin this year.
What's the tomb board like?
Tried to do a search to find the few stuff but to move avail :( thanks got heads up thou
vipoid wrote: By the way, how are you guys playing RPs?
Are you saying that multi-wound models like Destroyers and Praetorians come back with full wounds or with just 1 wound?
(I know that there's a thread about this in YMDC, but last I checked it's up to 9 pages and has still gone absolutely bloody nowhere.)
If the models were only supposed to come back with one wound it'd say as much, like with every other mechanic where a model comes back with only one wound. Anyone who says otherwise is just convinced it's OP, tbh.
Here are the full Necron FW leaks. Kutlakh seems juicy, might make assault crons a very viable idea.
vipoid wrote: By the way, how are you guys playing RPs?
Are you saying that multi-wound models like Destroyers and Praetorians come back with full wounds or with just 1 wound?
(I know that there's a thread about this in YMDC, but last I checked it's up to 9 pages and has still gone absolutely bloody nowhere.)
They come back with full wounds, because it just says to return the models. People arguing otherwise are just inventing rules because they think it's too good - there's no basis for any other way to play it in the actual rules.
The Necrons FW stuff seems REALLY good. Pylons look incredibly good. It's not entirely clear whether they're supposed to pay for the teleportation matrix, but assuming they are then for 485 points you get a serious weapon. To put its firepower into perspective, against a T8 tank, it expects to deal (7/2)(2/3)(5/6)(8)=~15.6 damage per turn and needs to lose 17+ wounds to lose effectiveness - 16 wounds dealt heals with living metal. Even if the enemy has a 5++, that cripples almost anything in one turn. Better still, it basically ignores combat - whilst you don't want to get hit by a strong unit, combat doesn't stop you firing. Against aircraft it just melts them - ~19.4 damage per turn. It also gives you a cryptekesque save bubble (only to models though, not units), and at T8 W30 3+/5++, it's one of the most durable things in the game for its cost. I'm super excited, it's my favourite super heavy in the game and now it's finally got good rules!
I'm not super impressed by sentry pylons, heavy destroyers just seem a bit better. However, the heat ray one teleporting near an enemy tank might be a nasty trick to pull off once or twice. Otherwise, Death Rays are a short range single shot thing (why so bad?) and the gauss ones have a penalty to fire at the ground. Meh.
Tomb stalkers and tomb sentinels are quite interesting. Sort of discount trygons really - they pop up and threaten to wreck the backfield. I really like the sentinel's gun, but realistically you're probably not getting it into the 12" range of the super juicy targets as they'll be bubblewrapped. Still, they seem good for their cost for sure, especially as the Stalker is an elite. Drop them in and they need to be killed outright, as their profiles don't degrade. Take 3 sentinels for 525 points, and all of a sudden your anti tank can drop anywhere and is still good in combat. Brutal.
Acanthrites are short range heavy destroyers with less accurate shooting, a worse gun and no RP for 2/3rds the cost. Seems okay to me. The gun is particularly brutal up close and they're now much better in combat. I dunno how I feel about them - I certainly prefer them to Destroyers, but would I take them and not Heavy Destroyers? Probably not, which leaves them in an odd place.
Night shrouds seem a bit meh with one trick - the bombs are great. You can deal up to 12 mortal wounds, or 3 to a vehicle once per game. It's not incredible, but super mobile mortal wounds are a good trick. Otherwise, it's a tough Night Scythe for a high cost. I feel the bombs will be pretty hard to use in reality, as you risk flying off the table, but it's something. Overall, eh, I'll pass.
Tesseract arks got a lot better. They're surprisingly few wounds, and it's a shame they degrade, but oh man. For 246 points, you get 6 S6 tesla shots (or 260 for 2 gauss cannons, but then you're penalised for moving) and the big gun. The gun is now either a wounding on 2+ AP-2 flamer, a 24" D6 S5 AP-4 dam3 assault gun or a 48" D6 S8 AP-3 damD6 heavy gun. That last one in particular is great considering it used to be 3 S7 ap2 templates - whilst not quite a bunch of lascannons, it's a pretty good impression. It's also got trollish saves - 3+/5++ and QS means that even an overcharged plasma gun, usually a severe threat, does ~0.5 damage per shot. 12 of them would get about 6 wounds but also kill 2 bearers on average too. Lascannons expect to do ~0.61 damage per shot, autocannons ~0.28. It's crazy. Oh, and it's hard to charge (usually 3d6 pick lowest 2), plus can fly away anyway. I love it. Might not be great, but it certainly looks funny.
Tomb citadels are a thing I'll probably never use to be honest. Might be fun for narrative, seems to point heavy for a normal matched game, with not enough return on investment.
Both special characters seem overcosted. Kutlakh now has essentially a force sword, advance+charge seems fine but not amazing, and the other stuff seems cool. Worth 200 points? Nah, I'd rather take a tomb sentinel for that. Very tough though with a 2+/4++. I dunno, maybe I'll try him instead of a regular overlord but I doubt it's going to be worth it usually - just Imotekh mk2. Toholk is a cryptek who gives a vehicle a phylactery and rerolls initiative, with different shooting and melee which I think usually work out to be worse than a staff of light, and 61 points more. The initiative thing is great, no doubt, and the vehicle buff is surprisingly relevant (imagine a tesseract ark regaining 3 wounds... or a pylon). Worth the extra cost? Meh, probably not. Szeras fights better, shoots better and I prefer the unit buff to the vehicle+5++ buffs. Worth a try but I'm not expecting miracles.
Overall, I'm extremely pleased. This really patches up the AT capabilities. Even if all you do is take a Pylon, you're now expecting to kill a tank per turn and it's very hard to shut down. That's a pretty major improvement. The tesseract ark puts out withering amounts of fire, like a tougher, longer ranged ground doom scythe. Acanthrites can rush down vehicles even as small units. Stalkers can pop in and charge from behind. Overall, it's a dream update.
MoonlightSonata wrote: Where are you seeing the rules for the Gauss Pylon? It's not in the imgur album that was linked.
Spoiler:
Edit: Incidentally I want to smash my second unpainted tomb citadel tile over the head of whoever is responsible for the new rules for it. Once upon a time you could take two in a game (sans upgrades) for 500pts. Now that'd nearly cost 1600pts/80pp for precious little.
vipoid wrote: By the way, how are you guys playing RPs?
Are you saying that multi-wound models like Destroyers and Praetorians come back with full wounds or with just 1 wound?
(I know that there's a thread about this in YMDC, but last I checked it's up to 9 pages and has still gone absolutely bloody nowhere.)
They come back with full wounds, because it just says to return the models. People arguing otherwise are just inventing rules because they think it's too good - there's no basis for any other way to play it in the actual rules.
The correct answer is that GW never told us how many wounds they come back with. If you want to keep arguing that they come back with full wounds, there's a 9 page discussion in YMDC covering the topic. It doesn't belong here.
I find it hilarious that the gauss pylon can't actually hurt anything with quantum shielding because it does too much damage for a d6 to not roll under.
vipoid wrote: By the way, how are you guys playing RPs?
Are you saying that multi-wound models like Destroyers and Praetorians come back with full wounds or with just 1 wound?
(I know that there's a thread about this in YMDC, but last I checked it's up to 9 pages and has still gone absolutely bloody nowhere.)
They come back with full wounds, because it just says to return the models. People arguing otherwise are just inventing rules because they think it's too good - there's no basis for any other way to play it in the actual rules.
The correct answer is that GW never told us how many wounds they come back with. If you want to keep arguing that they come back with full wounds, there's a 9 page discussion in YMDC covering the topic. It doesn't belong here.
That thread had a resolution already. Destroyers come back with 3 wounds. Orknado proved it on the thread.
I dont know how exacly QS works.
When i get 10 wound from 10 infrantry model from one unit i can ignore it?
When i get 10 wound from 10 weapon fire by one model i can ignore it?
When i get 10 wound from one weapon with 10 hit i can ignore it?
Or i can only ignore one hit with hi D characteristic?
Can only ignore hits with a high damage characteristic. If a QS model takes an unsaved wound from an autocannon which has a D of 2, it would need to roll a 1 to negate that. If a lascannon scored an unsaved wound and then rolled a 6 on its d6 damage roll then the QS model would negate it on a 1-5.
10 single damage wounds be they from 10 infantry or a heavy 10 gun can't be stopped by QS because you can't roll under a 1.
I noticed that I am confused. The sentry pylon (100 points) with a gauss exterminator (50 points) seems substantially cheaper than a Gauss Pylon at 475 points.
Am I missing something incredibly obvious as the imgur page doesn't have a separate data slate for a Gauss Pylon
Kuguar6 wrote: I dont know how exacly QS works.
When i get 10 wound from 10 infrantry model from one unit i can ignore it?
When i get 10 wound from 10 weapon fire by one model i can ignore it?
When i get 10 wound from one weapon with 10 hit i can ignore it?
Or i can only ignore one hit with hi D characteristic?
No, No, and, No. You have to roll under the damage done to have QS go off, so you can never save a hit that does 1 wound at a time. So it's only (and I use that word with a hint of irony) good against things like las cannons, meltas, krak missiles, and neutron lasers.
Godeskian wrote: I noticed that I am confused. The sentry pylon (100 points) with a gauss exterminator (50 points) seems substantially cheaper than a Gauss Pylon at 475 points.
Am I missing something incredibly obvious as the imgur page doesn't have a separate data slate for a Gauss Pylon
The Gauss Pylon has a different gun that is muuuuuch bigger.
Godeskian wrote: I noticed that I am confused. The sentry pylon (100 points) with a gauss exterminator (50 points) seems substantially cheaper than a Gauss Pylon at 475 points.
Am I missing something incredibly obvious as the imgur page doesn't have a separate data slate for a Gauss Pylon
The Gauss Pylon has a different gun that is muuuuuch bigger.
Guass pylon has a godlike supakannonfrom he'll with the macro rule it will 1 shot a knight on average.
The Gauss Pylon has a different gun that is muuuuuch bigger.
Well, I do like big guns, I cannot lie
Guass pylon has a godlike supakannonfrom he'll with the macro rule it will 1 shot a knight on average.
I can dig that. Was there a rules leak for it yet as the imgur page up thread only included the sentry gun
Requizen linked it in a spoilered post just above. The thing is absolutely crazy good for 475/485 (unclear) points. It's also pretty cool how they gave it a "pistol" for combat whilst allowing it to be automatically hit and not fight back. The big gun averages 8 damage per wound, or 16 against titanic units and has to die to stop firing. Not only does the big gun deal more damage on average than when it was Str D, it fires more shots on average now too.
But yeah, as Actinium said, it's pretty funny that 6+D3 damage means it can't hurt Necron vehicles with quantum shielding at all with its main gun. I guess if they get within 18", it can fire it's S6 profile.
If I have any complaint about the Pylon it's that it doesn't have supporting weapons. Compared to the Baneblade variants, they all get their one big gun and then a bunch of things like Lascannons, Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, etc.
However, none of their bug guns are nearly as good as the Gauss Annihilator, so it's a fairly minor complaint.
I'm really feeling the Centipedes. I think both are useful - the Sentinel seems a smidge better (better gun and nearly as good in a fight) but the Stalker is just fine as well. I think they might ve better surprise backfielders than Flayed Ones.
The Stalkers/Sentinels were long overdue for having good rules so this is a pleasant surprise. I love the fact that that the best option for the Sentry Pylon is the heat cannon which can no longer be bought and likely will never be available again.
Titanicus wrote: Guass pylon has a godlike supakannonfrom he'll with the macro rule it will 1 shot a knight on average.
The Gauss Pylon gun is pretty good, but no, it will not 1-shot a knight on average. It has a 16% chance of one-shotting a knight. It has a 53% chance of killing a knight in two shots. I'd probably bring a Stalker with it, to give it the reroll 1s to hit, since it's only 3+ to hit a non-flyer.
Hey first post in years, not reapply played since 5th, but thought I'd give it another go,
Orikan the Diviner143 Cryptek104 Destroyer Lord: Warscythe 135
"Average math" has it doing 20.1 wounds to a Knight. Even if it only does 20, that puts the Knight in the final tier of effectiveness and basically cripples it for the rest of the game, and makes it easy pickings for even Gauss Immortals or a couple Warscythes to pick through. Anything higher than average kills it in one shot. That's pretty good.
Against anything that's not Knight levels of endurance, it generally one-shots. Magnus has a good chance of surviving it with his uber-save, but it'll pop most any Vehicle or Monster that can't hide.
Requizen wrote: "Average math" has it doing 20.1 wounds to a Knight. Even if it only does 20, that puts the Knight in the final tier of effectiveness and basically cripples it for the rest of the game, and makes it easy pickings for even Gauss Immortals or a couple Warscythes to pick through. Anything higher than average kills it in one shot. That's pretty good.
Against anything that's not Knight levels of endurance, it generally one-shots. Magnus has a good chance of surviving it with his uber-save, but it'll pop most any Vehicle or Monster that can't hide.
I simulated it over a few million trials, didn't use average math.
Your 'average math' doesn't add up, either.
3.5 (attacks) * (4/6) to hit * (5/6) to wound * (4/6) invuln * 8 avg dmg = 10.4.
You could always My Will Be Done a pylon and hold aside a command point for number of shots on the turn you really need it to kill or at least cripple a superheavy.
changemod wrote:You could always My Will Be Done a pylon and hold aside a command point for number of shots on the turn you really need it to kill or at least cripple a superheavy.
MWBD only works on Infantry, so no dice. Best targets are Heavy Destroyers and Tesla Immortals.
Eyjio wrote:
Irrumare wrote: I simulated it over a few million trials, didn't use average math.
Your 'average math' doesn't add up, either.
3.5 (attacks) * (4/6) to hit * (5/6) to wound * (4/6) invuln * 8 avg dmg = 10.4.
You're missing that as a Macro gun that it does double damage per shot, so average 16 damage. That puts it at ~20.7 wounds per volley.
Yep, that's the sticking point. If you get two through the Invuln (pretty likely), the Knight is dead. If only one gets through, it takes 14-18 points of damage, putting it close to if not over the final tier. It may still be worth bringing a couple Heavies to plink off any remaining.
Depends on the meta for that. If vehicle/monster spam still remains, Pylon + Heavies will be a pretty solid backfield. If it goes more towards hordes or a mix, the Pylon is still pretty good (hard for hordes to kill, can pump out Flux Arc shot and Tesla pistols, can DS right onto an objective). I'm excited to get mine now.
changemod wrote: You could always My Will Be Done a pylon and hold aside a command point for number of shots on the turn you really need it to kill or at least cripple a superheavy.
MWBD is only for infantry...
Automatically Appended Next Post: DAMMIT.
Always getting ninja'd
Remember you can't shoot a pistol with other weapons, so the tesla arc is kind of bad. Wish it worked like the old lightning field generator wargear and did a light autohit on anyone hitting it in melee.
I wish acanthrites were 10 points cheaper and had strength 8 cutting beams.
I wish the exile cannon wasn't heavy or the tomb sentinel had a move and shoot heavy with no modifier rule.
I wish a was a little bit taller, i wish i was a baller.
Titanicus wrote: Guass pylon has a godlike supakannonfrom he'll with the macro rule it will 1 shot a knight on average.
The Gauss Pylon gun is pretty good, but no, it will not 1-shot a knight on average. It has a 16% chance of one-shotting a knight. It has a 53% chance of killing a knight in two shots. I'd probably bring a Stalker with it, to give it the reroll 1s to hit, since it's only 3+ to hit a non-flyer.
3.5 shots, wounds on 2s, and a 5+ invul, does 5 damage before the macro rule 10 after doubling.
2/3 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 37% at 10 wounds per hit, so 3.7 wounds per shot, times 3.5 shots per round is 12.95 damage per round so average rolls will get a knight in two rounds. I'm lazy so I haven't done the math, but it seems like less than a 16% chance to one shot a night, and better than a 53% chance to get it in two shots.
Titanicus wrote: Guass pylon has a godlike supakannonfrom he'll with the macro rule it will 1 shot a knight on average.
The Gauss Pylon gun is pretty good, but no, it will not 1-shot a knight on average. It has a 16% chance of one-shotting a knight. It has a 53% chance of killing a knight in two shots. I'd probably bring a Stalker with it, to give it the reroll 1s to hit, since it's only 3+ to hit a non-flyer.
3.5 shots, wounds on 2s, and a 5+ invul, does 5 damage before the macro rule 10 after doubling.
2/3 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 37% at 10 wounds per hit, so 3.7 wounds per shot, times 3.5 shots per round is 12.95 damage per round so average rolls will get a knight in two rounds. I'm lazy so I haven't done the math, but it seems like less than a 16% chance to one shot a night, and better than a 53% chance to get it in two shots.
d6 shots: 3.5
Hit on 3+: 2/3
Wound on 2+: 5/6
Save on 5++: 2/3 (goes through)
Damage d3+6: 8 (doubled because Titanic to 16)
Obviously you can't get half damage through so on average it'll be either 14-18 damage (one shot gets through) or 28-36 damage (two shots get through).
D3 + 6 damage Macro is freaking insane. Go against a Wraithknight without a Scattershield or a Baneblade variant. One shot. A Stompa has 40 wounds but no Invuln without a KFF character. Stormsurges can buy a 4++ with Shield Generator, so they're pretty durable against it, but with only 20 wounds any shot that gets through nearly kills it in one go.
The obvious downside being that without QS, it's pretty susceptible to being insta-gibbed itself. 5++ is good as is Living Metal, so that's not too bad, but you're obviously not getting back 30 wounds in a game. If 40k turns into an arms race and we find Pylons get blasted off a lot, might be worth investing in some Spyders to buddy up with it.
On the other hand, since it can DS, you can usually guarantee that it'll never get shot on T1.
Actinium wrote: Remember you can't shoot a pistol with other weapons, so the tesla arc is kind of bad. Wish it worked like the old lightning field generator wargear and did a light autohit on anyone hitting it in melee.
I wish acanthrites were 10 points cheaper and had strength 8 cutting beams.
I wish the exile cannon wasn't heavy or the tomb sentinel had a move and shoot heavy with no modifier rule.
I wish a was a little bit taller, i wish i was a baller.
I wish the Tomb Citadel that I just finished painting and was looking forward to using wasn't insanely, unbelievably, unnecessarily, unusably overcosted.
skoffs wrote: Because Big Poppa Pylon has the Titanic keyword it doesn't suffer the -1 that Heavy gives when firing if it teleports in, right?
The Titanic keyword does not grant that ability. It just allows vehicles to move over barricades, iirc.
Huh, so it does.
But interestingly enough,
Page 4 of the Forge World Xenos index says "A model armed with a Macro weapon may not fire if it has moved previously in the turn, unless the firing unit also has the TITANIC keyword."
The Focused beam weapon profile lists it's type as Macro.
As far as I can see, nowhere else in the book does it say anything about Macro weapons getting any other penalties to fire (like Heavy type weapons getting -1 to hit).
So, by that reasoning, it would appear that, as long as you don't fire the Flux arc profile (Heavy 2D6) on the turn it arrives "from orbit", you should be good for full BS.
skoffs wrote:Because Big Poppa Pylon has the Titanic keyword it doesn't suffer the -1 that Heavy gives when firing if it teleports in, right?
Macro does not apply a -1 to hit at all, it just cannot be shot if you move unless you're Titanic. So you can DS in and fire the big gun, but if you fire it as 2d6 S6 AP-1 D1 shots instead, you're -1 to hit because Heavy.
It's going to be a great unit until you come across the guy running nothing but Genestealers, Lictors, and Malanthropes.
Wow. So I'm thinking the FW Canoptek Tomb Stalker is going to be fantastic, and potentially our main anti-tank unit.
For 180 points, you get a 9 Wound powerhouse that fires D6 S10 AP-4 D3 shots. Best part is that it deep strikes, allowing you to place it exactly where you need it to melt the right unit. It also has a Gloom Prism on it and Living Metal as well. Deep strike in two of these within range of some enemy armor, and you can do some damage.
I never really looked at it before, but I think it's looking really solid now. The only thing I see it really lacking would be no invuln save, and having to be within 12" is slightly dangerous with just a 3+ armor.
I think you're thinking of the Sentinel. The Stalker has a different gun: Rapid Fire d3 S5 AP-1 D1 (d3 Heavy Bolter, essentially) but is cheaper and has 2 more attacks in melee.
The Sentinel is going to be a sleeper hit I think. The gun is solid (even if it is Heavy) and can really put the hurt on bigger units that aren't well protected. Being able to sneak up and beam down a Basilisk is potentially hilarious and powerful.
I wonder if I can magnetize my Stalker to be either. It looks like just the head and front arms are different between the two models.
Requizen wrote: I think you're thinking of the Sentinel. The Stalker has a different gun: Rapid Fire d3 S5 AP-1 D1 (d3 Heavy Bolter, essentially) but is cheaper and has 2 more attacks in melee.
The Sentinel is going to be a sleeper hit I think. The gun is solid (even if it is Heavy) and can really put the hurt on bigger units that aren't well protected. Being able to sneak up and beam down a Basilisk is potentially hilarious and powerful.
I wonder if I can magnetize my Stalker to be either. It looks like just the head and front arms are different between the two models.
Whoops. Yeah I definitely meant the Sentinel. Right now I'm trying to determine if this eBay listing from China is a real product or a knock-off:
That retailer is almost certainly a recaster. Most recasters have pretty decent quality from what I've seen, but I would not recommend buying from them. Partially because of quality (I've seen some bad sculpts if it's from an unknown) partially because the materials they use can be really crappy for both modeling and health.
...and of course recasting isn't right. In case GW is reading.
Am I missing something or does QS practically make necron vehicles immune to things like titans? I was reading the new FW rules and so much inflicts high damage that it seems like hilariously easy to shrug off a warlord titan's main weapons on anything with QS. I would laugh as a ghost ark goes around just kitting a warlord all game.
Requizen wrote: I think you're thinking of the Sentinel. The Stalker has a different gun: Rapid Fire d3 S5 AP-1 D1 (d3 Heavy Bolter, essentially) but is cheaper and has 2 more attacks in melee.
The Sentinel is going to be a sleeper hit I think. The gun is solid (even if it is Heavy) and can really put the hurt on bigger units that aren't well protected. Being able to sneak up and beam down a Basilisk is potentially hilarious and powerful.
I wonder if I can magnetize my Stalker to be either. It looks like just the head and front arms are different between the two models.
I personally think both will be sleeper hits. The Stalker is an excellent bully unit.
buddha wrote: Am I missing something or does QS practically make necron vehicles immune to things like titans? I was reading the new FW rules and so much inflicts high damage that it seems like hilariously easy to shrug off a warlord titan's main weapons on anything with QS. I would laugh as a ghost ark goes around just kitting a warlord all game.
Yeah it's amusing. If LoW builds becomes the norm, QS spam will be a real contender. They're countered hard by things like Plasma and high strength low damage, though.
Hi, I'm looking for advice - I'm doing a 1000pt game with some friends soon and I'd like to include some destroyers (and ideally a Lord) in my list.
here's the thing, I'm quite concerned when it comes to balancing squad sizes vs points. On the one hand, I don't want to spend so many points on them that I've got little room for anything else in my list, but at the same time I'm worried that this will make my squads so small that they'll easily be killed before they get a chance to roll RPs.
So, with that in mind, do you think that 2 squads of 3 (each with 1 upgraded to a Heavy Destroyer) will be too few bodies? If so, would it be better if I ran them as a single unit of 5?
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Hi, I'm looking for advice - I'm doing a 1000pt game with some friends soon and I'd like to include some destroyers (and ideally a Lord) in my list.
here's the thing, I'm quite concerned when it comes to balancing squad sizes vs points. On the one hand, I don't want to spend so many points on them that I've got little room for anything else in my list, but at the same time I'm worried that this will make my squads so small that they'll easily be killed before they get a chance to roll RPs.
So, with that in mind, do you think that 2 squads of 3 (each with 1 upgraded to a Heavy Destroyer) will be too few bodies? If so, would it be better if I ran them as a single unit of 5?
In my experience playing a 1k pt game last night 3 is too small of a unit and heavy destroyers are too expensive to bother fielding. I would run a single unit of 4-5 or two units of 4 if you really want a lot of destroyers. I think at 1k quantity is more important than limited deathball synergy you might get. At 2k you can afford a lot fancier tricks. Boys first yada yada
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Hi, I'm looking for advice - I'm doing a 1000pt game with some friends soon and I'd like to include some destroyers (and ideally a Lord) in my list.
here's the thing, I'm quite concerned when it comes to balancing squad sizes vs points. On the one hand, I don't want to spend so many points on them that I've got little room for anything else in my list, but at the same time I'm worried that this will make my squads so small that they'll easily be killed before they get a chance to roll RPs.
So, with that in mind, do you think that 2 squads of 3 (each with 1 upgraded to a Heavy Destroyer) will be too few bodies? If so, would it be better if I ran them as a single unit of 5?
In my experience playing a 1k pt game last night 3 is too small of a unit and heavy destroyers are too expensive to bother fielding. I would run a single unit of 4-5 or two units of 4 if you really want a lot of destroyers.
Heavies max out at 3, and imo regular Destroyers are iffy at any points level.
A unit of 3 should pop most vehicles especially if you go ham and buff them with Overlord/DLord.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Hi, I'm looking for advice - I'm doing a 1000pt game with some friends soon and I'd like to include some destroyers (and ideally a Lord) in my list.
here's the thing, I'm quite concerned when it comes to balancing squad sizes vs points. On the one hand, I don't want to spend so many points on them that I've got little room for anything else in my list, but at the same time I'm worried that this will make my squads so small that they'll easily be killed before they get a chance to roll RPs.
So, with that in mind, do you think that 2 squads of 3 (each with 1 upgraded to a Heavy Destroyer) will be too few bodies? If so, would it be better if I ran them as a single unit of 5?
In my experience playing a 1k pt game last night 3 is too small of a unit and heavy destroyers are too expensive to bother fielding. I would run a single unit of 4-5 or two units of 4 if you really want a lot of destroyers.
Heavies max out at 3, and imo regular Destroyers are iffy at any points level.
A unit of 3 should pop most vehicles especially if you go ham and buff them with Overlord/DLord.
I disagree on normal destroyers but maybe I'm just wrong. I need to play a lot more anyway. I do know that my unit of 3 destoyers got destroyed in 2 rounds vs a riptide.
I will say that 10 immortals with tesla and MWBD absolutely demolished all the infantry they ran into. Maybe I was rolling hot for them but they would shoot 20 shots and be rolling for 17-23 wounds. It was amazing and incredibly demoralizing for my Tau oponent.
You guys are tickling my balls right now , where can I view all this juicy detail about the forge world stuff? I really need to have this in my possession as soon as possible.
The cryptek looks amazing! Refilling seize the initiative, and repairing vehicles is awesome! Combined with a spyder and heavy mech lists can become viable! I'm going to try one out this weekend, up against gaunt spam, so running a vehicle heavy list. Going to proxy a tesseract ark and toholk the blind!
well thats what i get for being hellbent on a soul storm army
