Sushi636 wrote: You guys are tickling my balls right now , where can I view all this juicy detail about the forge world stuff? I really need to have this in my possession as soon as possible.
The post near the top of page 69 gives a pretty accurate rundown of everything, but as per Dakka rules we can't advocate anything other than the official channels. (though I'm sure the various list building sites and apps will update to include the info soon enough)
If there's anything specific you want to ask about people might be able to answer your questions if it doesn't directly violate Dakka's rules.
I picked up my copy of IA Xenos. I am pretty happy with it. The centipedes look good. The pylon looks like a beast. And I am loving Kutlakh and New Cryptek. Anyone come up with any assualt lists utilizing Kutlakhs 12" charge after advanced bubble?
I'd assume Kutlakh + Antakyr near a unit or two of Lychguard would be pretty disgusting.
Watching Reecius' latest 'Cron VS Guard match on twitch, he made an interesting point about Immortals.
That for 85 points, MSU Tesla squads are excellent little place-and-forget choices. They're able to operate pretty much autonomously, requiring very little help or management, while still managing to contribute decently to the game (semi-long distance harassment and Objective chasing).
Yeah, they're easier to kill than 10 man squads, but they're not THAT expensive, so you're going to be getting back your points investment throughout the course of the game.
I think a Brick of 15-20 Warriors supported by Cryptek plus a couple minimum sized T.Immortal units may be worth considering for a base/core of most army lists (at a minimum of 454 for those four units, it's definitely a reasonable way to fill a quarter or your points limit).
Also, in the same broadcast he mentioned that big groups of Tesla Tomb Blades and Rod Praetorians were units to be feared this edition... not sure how that would work out, but maybe worth investigating.
Requizen wrote: Heavies max out at 3, and imo regular Destroyers are iffy at any points level.
Oh, that's a shame.
To be honest, the model I most want to use is my Destroyer Lord.
If Destroyers aren't good, is the Destroyer Lord useful with anything else?
Well, they're not exactly "bad", it's just that they cost a lot so you need to be careful with them, as well as be aware that they'll use up a decent chunk of your points resources which may limit your ability to fill out the rest of your list.
Alternate uses for a D.Lord would include being a fast moving ResOrb carrier with decent attacks who can accompany Praetorians... but in that we're still not 100% sure on the viability of Praets, don't know how useful that information would be to you.
Well, they're not exactly "bad", it's just that they cost a lot so you need to be careful with them, as well as be aware that they'll use up a decent chunk of your points resources which may limit your ability to fill out the rest of your list.
Alternate uses for a D.Lord would include being a fast moving ResOrb carrier with decent attacks who can accompany Praetorians... but in that we're still not 100% sure on the viability of Praets, don't know how useful that information would be to you.
Well, I do want to try Praetorians sometime.
Out of curiosity, is there any value in getting the Phylactery upgrade on a Destroyer Lord?
Requizen wrote: Heavies max out at 3, and imo regular Destroyers are iffy at any points level.
Oh, that's a shame.
To be honest, the model I most want to use is my Destroyer Lord.
If Destroyers aren't good, is the Destroyer Lord useful with anything else?
Well, they're not exactly "bad", it's just that they cost a lot so you need to be careful with them, as well as be aware that they'll use up a decent chunk of your points resources which may limit your ability to fill out the rest of your list.
Alternate uses for a D.Lord would include being a fast moving ResOrb carrier with decent attacks who can accompany Praetorians... but in that we're still not 100% sure on the viability of Praets, don't know how useful that information would be to you.
You cant use resurection orb from destroyer lord on pretorian because pretorian havent got dynasty key word. This include most MWBD, technomancer and chronometr. Only same hq have this skill without dynasty key word.
skoffs wrote: Alternate uses for a D.Lord would include being a fast moving ResOrb carrier with decent attacks who can accompany Praetorians... but in that we're still not 100% sure on the viability of Praets, don't know how useful that information would be to you.
You cant use resurection orb from destroyer lord on pretorian because pretorian havent got dynasty key word. This include most MWBD, technomancer and chronometr. Only same hq have this skill without dynasty key word.
... sonofabitch, yet another con against taking Praets.
When the hell is the new FAQ expected? We got a lot of stuff that needs clearing up.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Sorry, one last thing for now - is there any value in the Phylactery upgrade for the Destroyer Lord?
You normally want Destroyer Lords with expensive infantry, so ResOrb is usually the one to take there. You would only take the Phylac if you're planning on having him run around by himself.
I am putting together a Vanguard Detachment with Deathmarks and Flayed Ones. I am just wondering what your guys thoughts are on these layouts.
Note: I can only share points between 24 models due to low remaining points in a list.
1. 8 Deathmarks, 8 Deathmarks, 8 Flayed-Ones.
2. 7 Deathmarks, 7 Deathmarks, 10 Flayed-Ones.
3. 9 Deathmarks, 9 Deathmarks, 6 Flayed-Ones.
The 1st option looks most balanced to me as they are all 8 each so they all have the same chance of survival and all will be considered a threat.
16 shots (if in rapid fire) that can target 2 separate units either by deepstriking normally or deepstriking with an opponents unit/model looks solid to me.The chance to do 1 Mortal Wound per wound roll of 6 will be more helpful as well.
8 FO doing 4 attacks per model is crazy good. Even if its 4 str. Also, adding 1 to opponents morale and re rolling failed wound roll will do lots of more damage.
2nd is just as good maybe a bit better/worse?? 7 Deathmarks do lose 2 shots or 4 in Rapid fire,lose a better chance at survival and less chance of getting mortal wounds. But, 2 extra FO is 8 more attacks, re-roll failed wounds and better chance of the FO sticking around.
3rd option I was going more CC-FO to protect something like a DDA, Stalker, FW models etc. 2 units of 9 Deathmarks will (hopefully) put the hurt on my opponents with 4 more shots or 8 in Rapid-Fire and the chance to get more mortal wounds.
I am not sure what one to pick. The 1st is most balanced, 2nd is more CC strong while losing 2-4 shots and 3 makes me want to counter-CC while firing with a good/strong fire line.
We'd really have to see the rest of the list to give the best feedback/suggest what would compliment it best.
(please post list under a spoiler, though)
skoffs wrote: We'd really have to see the rest of the list to give the best feedback/suggest what would compliment it best.
(please post list under a spoiler, though)
The list is about having the Cryptek and O/lord with the Destroyers to give them +1 RP and MWBD so get 2+ BS to make full use of their re rolling 1s to hit. Warriors will then be in front of them with a Lord to give them +1 RP and re rolling morale so that warriors keep coming back.
Stalker is to give everything re rolling hit rolls of 1s besides the Destroyers as they naturally have it.
DDA will hang back and focus on the opponents most threatening units. Can also move it and relly on LP mode and the Gauss Flayer Arrays.
Scarabs will screen or surround units i dont want charged.
Sypder will heal d3 wounds on either stalker or DDA. I will also be playing against Tau or Thousand Suns so GP is being taken incase it is needed.
That leaves the DMs and FOs to fill the elite spot for deepstriking and either attacking my opponents good units or defending my units from deepstrike shenanigans.
skoffs wrote: I'd assume Kutlakh + Antakyr near a unit or two of Lychguard would be pretty disgusting.
Watching Reecius' latest 'Cron VS Guard match on twitch, he made an interesting point about Immortals.
That for 85 points, MSU Tesla squads are excellent little place-and-forget choices. They're able to operate pretty much autonomously, requiring very little help or management, while still managing to contribute decently to the game (semi-long distance harassment and Objective chasing).
Yeah, they're easier to kill than 10 man squads, but they're not THAT expensive, so you're going to be getting back your points investment throughout the course of the game.
I think a Brick of 15-20 Warriors supported by Cryptek plus a couple minimum sized T.Immortal units may be worth considering for a base/core of most army lists (at a minimum of 454 for those four units, it's definitely a reasonable way to fill a quarter or your points limit).
Also, in the same broadcast he mentioned that big groups of Tesla Tomb Blades and Rod Praetorians were units to be feared this edition... not sure how that would work out, but maybe worth investigating.
That's a good point about min Tesla units. You don't necessarily need MWBD on 10 to do good damage, especially if you're gonna throw it on HDs or Lychguard or Praets.
Still not sold on Tomb Blades. There's enough range in the game that they'll just pop. I kind of want to try Praets as well, but I'm not sure that game was the best indicator of their ability. The IG player made a lot of mistakes so it's a bit misleading imo.
skoffs wrote: We'd really have to see the rest of the list to give the best feedback/suggest what would compliment it best.
(please post list under a spoiler, though)
The list is about having the Cryptek and O/lord with the Destroyers to give them +1 RP and MWBD so get 2+ BS to make full use of their re rolling 1s to hit. Warriors will then be in front of them with a Lord to give them +1 RP and re rolling morale so that warriors keep coming back.
Stalker is to give everything re rolling hit rolls of 1s besides the Destroyers as they naturally have it.
DDA will hang back and focus on the opponents most threatening units. Can also move it and relly on LP mode and the Gauss Flayer Arrays.
Scarabs will screen or surround units i dont want charged.
Sypder will heal d3 wounds on either stalker or DDA. I will also be playing against Tau or Thousand Suns so GP is being taken incase it is needed.
That leaves the DMs and FOs to fill the elite spot for deepstriking and either attacking my opponents good units or defending my units from deepstrike shenanigans.
I see no issues with the above list as it is... though maybe your plan might need reconsideration (everything surrounding the Destroyers).
If you want to add some more Flayed Ones, perhaps consider dropping some Warriors. As long as you're above 15 you should be fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote: I kind of want to try Praets as well, but I'm not sure that game was the best indicator of their ability.
Doing a quick comparison, I realized these guys don't have too much difference...
Destroyer M10" BS3+ WS3+ S4 T5 W3 A2 Ld10 Sv3+ (Shoot: G.C: 2 24" S5 AP-3 d3D / Melee: S4 AP-). 315 points gets you 5 (15 wounds, 10 shots). Fly keyword. Reroll 1s to hit, can easily get buffs.
I see no issues with the above list as it is... though maybe your plan might need reconsideration (everything surrounding the Destroyers).
If you want to add some more Flayed Ones, perhaps consider dropping some Warriors. As long as you're above 15 you should be fine.
Its only the 3 Hqs, the destroyers and the warriors that are surrounding the destroyers. The Scarabs, Stalker, Sypder, DDA, Deathmarks and Flayed-Ones will all work independently (even if they target the same unit(s) ). But, I guess it is a lot of points in a blob compared to everything else. I could put them the 5 units/models on an objective or 2 if all of them are spread out enough so that I am more "protecting" an area of interest rather then the destroyers.
I could drop the warriors to 15 and while it should be more then enough I think its better to be safe then sorry when it comes to numbers when anything can happen in 40K, especially since Smith-Spam is an issue for us :(.
If I was too though, I would field 9 DM, 9DM and 9 FO which will buff them all considerably.
Back to my question; out of the 3 options I listed which one would you say suits best? I can work on improvements once I have everything concrete.
skoffs wrote: I'd assume Kutlakh + Antakyr near a unit or two of Lychguard would be pretty disgusting.
Watching Reecius' latest 'Cron VS Guard match on twitch, he made an interesting point about Immortals.
That for 85 points, MSU Tesla squads are excellent little place-and-forget choices. They're able to operate pretty much autonomously, requiring very little help or management, while still managing to contribute decently to the game (semi-long distance harassment and Objective chasing).
Yeah, they're easier to kill than 10 man squads, but they're not THAT expensive, so you're going to be getting back your points investment throughout the course of the game.
I think a Brick of 15-20 Warriors supported by Cryptek plus a couple minimum sized T.Immortal units may be worth considering for a base/core of most army lists (at a minimum of 454 for those four units, it's definitely a reasonable way to fill a quarter or your points limit).
Also, in the same broadcast he mentioned that big groups of Tesla Tomb Blades and Rod Praetorians were units to be feared this edition... not sure how that would work out, but maybe worth investigating.
That's a good point about min Tesla units. You don't necessarily need MWBD on 10 to do good damage, especially if you're gonna throw it on HDs or Lychguard or Praets.
Still not sold on Tomb Blades. There's enough range in the game that they'll just pop. I kind of want to try Praets as well, but I'm not sure that game was the best indicator of their ability. The IG player made a lot of mistakes so it's a bit misleading imo.
I was toying with bringing a squad of 9 tesla TB against gaunt spam. 9 TB puts out 36 tesla shots a turn, on a more mobile and durable chassis than immortals, ignores the cover bonuses (which is critical for most armies in this edition). Run them with a screening unit of scarabs (so they can pick the combats/get the hell out of dodge if scary cc comes near them) and they are a nasty little unit. Run them near a CCB (can keep up with them very well, and provides his own CC threat/tesla platform), with the 12" command wave, and that unit is now hitting with the 36 tesla shots on 2+, proccing on 5+. They have the 'FLY' keyword so they can fall back and shoot, which immortals cannot. Stick them in cover, and they are also a 2+ save with 2 wounds.... . Point a stalker at the unit you want dead and they're now rerolling 1's. The buffs stack up, but it does eat a lot of the force. Even min with scarabs is 500 points odd for the unit and min. screen. And if you want the same but against elite/shooty armies, then put gauss on them. Ridiculous amount of shots of high quality, cover ignoring gauss. Also
Effective, flexible but expensive, so nowhere near as spammy as 7th, but they are a lot stronger units now considering the meta.
Watching Reecius' latest 'Cron VS Guard match on twitch, he made an interesting point about Immortals.
That for 85 points, MSU Tesla squads are excellent little place-and-forget choices. They're able to operate pretty much autonomously, requiring very little help or management, while still managing to contribute decently to the game (semi-long distance harassment and Objective chasing).
Would you always take 10-man squads if you had the points, or do you think it's worth splitting them into 5-man squads anyway?
A pity the tomb blades look so dorky though. I would get them, but I find them more off putting than the vehicles. En par with new Flayed Ones, really. The bike itself looks fine, but the guy riding it looks weird. Like he's asleep at the wheel or something.
I have been looking at the IA book, and the changes to the Nightshroud Bomber are growing on me more and more. Its versatile against hordes, or elite, and does a lot of damage to both. It is a one trick pony, but what other one trick pony can aim at a squad of 20 genestealers and delete them turn 1, before the shooting phase has even begun! Thats 3D6 or 12D6 mortal wounds! If you roll slightly above average there is a high chance it will one shot a hive tyrant. Easy to deny the swarmlords 1st turn bum rush.... if hes dead. Hard for a 'Nid's griblies to stay alive when 40 gauss shots points their way without synapse.
Also, as its not a shooting attack.... it can target characters. Not so good for nids with their big bugs, but if you have a mission critical HQ you need dead, very doable with this. Sure its only 1D6 for a single model thats not a monster or vehicle, but its still that many mortal wounds. Combined with 5 Deathmarks means slay the warlord T1 is in the bag
The tesserack ark looks delishious now! Definetly picking one up. The 5++, augmenting charge rolls with an auto hitting fleshbane AP-2 flamer! And the other profiles are beautiful too!
The aranthracites look different to the stalker/sentinel, overall can put out a lot of comparable damage on a more mobile chassis, meaning more reliable late game vs the deepstriking sentinel/stalker. I feel all are viable choices however.
The big pylon 1 shotting a knight is very nice. The melta sentry pylon looks good due to the fact its cheap long range melta.
Cryptek HQ is amazing! Good for heavy mech lists (which I'm playing tomorrow, tesla spam, mech only list with a few FW units. Will let you know how it goes) and can reroll failed seize the initiative rolls! Mucho handy as alot of our damage seems tied up in how effectively we can neuter their assault T1.
Yeah, the Gauss Pylon is pretty dangerous. I like how they gave it BS2+ to compensate for the Gauss Annihilator penalty against land units. I just noticed its a macro weapon too, so it gets double damage against titanic units. That means it can deal at most 108 wounds against a unit with the titanic keyword. The warlord titan, the largest titan we know of, only has 70 wounds. It is totally possible to one shot a warlord with the gauss pylon, and that is awesome.
I like the new Sentinel. Reece wasn't kidding when he said FW necrons had some nasty AT options. I hope the codex gets something as good.
It seems that FW copy pasted the rules for the void blade though, because that has the same stats as in the codex...which is the same as the hyperphase sword
I feel if you want a troop slot filled, 10 tesla immortals isnt so bad.
But if you want tesla to be the main attraction in your forces shooting, TB are the way to go. Im spamming tesla tomorrow from vehicles against horde, if it works as well as im hoping im going to run tesla TB in the future.
Granted, they are triple the price of immortals, but they have double the output of damage, move a lot quicker, are more survivable, while simultaneously ignoring cover.
I feel the points investment is worth it. 40 warriors properly buffed/supported puts out a lot of firepower, but its immobile (especially if you don't want to lose cover bonuses). TB should put out comparable damage if its properly buffed, but is way more tactically flexible, for comparable points.
I think you misunderstood the rules for the nightshroud bomber. Its not that you deal 12d6 mortal wounds, you roll up to 12 dice, and for each 3+ you deal a mortal wound.
The max number of models you can kill is 12, not 72.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I think you misunderstood the rules for the nightshroud bomber. Its not that you deal 12d6 mortal wounds, you roll up to 12 dice, and for each 3+ you deal a mortal wound.
The max number of models you can kill is 12, not 72.
Yep I read that completely wrong. Looking at it now its actually not that great at all. It was good in 7th, I'm currently painting one up Ah well.
Still the best looking necron flyer though.
Seeing that stupid gaping hole in the cockpit of the GW ones gives me a head ache.
"Oh dear, an enemy aircraft. Where oh where am I going to shoot it?!"
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Still the best looking necron flyer though.
Seeing that stupid gaping hole in the cockpit of the GW ones gives me a head ache.
"Oh dear, an enemy aircraft. Where oh where am I going to shoot it?!"
Haha it doesn't have much competition. But you are right. Its surprisingly larger than a DS when the blades and tail are added on.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: A pity the tomb blades look so dorky though. I would get them, but I find them more off putting than the vehicles. En par with new Flayed Ones, really.
The bike itself looks fine, but the guy riding it looks weird. Like he's asleep at the wheel or something.
I haven't built them in awhile but I think they can be built without the Warrior on it. Just something to think about.
I lost a head to one of mine and I just brought the (I don't know what to call it) sensor ball down to replace his head and it does look a bit better over all I think.
Watched that same FLG batrep, though the real star of that bat rep was the scythe lychguard. Though it did get me to try out Praetorians andy they worked great against primaris marines killed two intercessor squads, two lieutenants, and finished off his hellblasters before he finally got them.
Speaking of primaris marines, lost my first game of 8th ed last night, I did a softball list because i wasn't sure what they could take, and got stomped for my trouble. Hell Blasters are brutal, -4ap is a taste of our own medicine, and even intercessors are very strong in CC. This prompted me to not toss them a softball, in which case I lost a unit of prats and tabled them. So I'm having a hard time thinking of a list that's appropriate to fight them.
They had their entire pop take the metal skinny dip, then depending on how much of their "mind" is left they place where useful. Warriors near brain dead but they have the simple job but TBs are their space fighters that are badass enough to wreck gak in atmosphere as well and no cover will save you.
I have seen other good conversions that use bass gutair strings to replace the limbs and head. The final look is pretty cool and alien looking.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Still the best looking necron flyer though.
Seeing that stupid gaping hole in the cockpit of the GW ones gives me a head ache.
"Oh dear, an enemy aircraft. Where oh where am I going to shoot it?!"
skoffs wrote: I'd assume Kutlakh + Antakyr near a unit or two of Lychguard would be pretty disgusting.
Watching Reecius' latest 'Cron VS Guard match on twitch, he made an interesting point about Immortals.
That for 85 points, MSU Tesla squads are excellent little place-and-forget choices. They're able to operate pretty much autonomously, requiring very little help or management, while still managing to contribute decently to the game (semi-long distance harassment and Objective chasing).
Yeah, they're easier to kill than 10 man squads, but they're not THAT expensive, so you're going to be getting back your points investment throughout the course of the game.
I think a Brick of 15-20 Warriors supported by Cryptek plus a couple minimum sized T.Immortal units may be worth considering for a base/core of most army lists (at a minimum of 454 for those four units, it's definitely a reasonable way to fill a quarter or your points limit).
Also, in the same broadcast he mentioned that big groups of Tesla Tomb Blades and Rod Praetorians were units to be feared this edition... not sure how that would work out, but maybe worth investigating.
That's a good point about min Tesla units. You don't necessarily need MWBD on 10 to do good damage, especially if you're gonna throw it on HDs or Lychguard or Praets.
Still not sold on Tomb Blades. There's enough range in the game that they'll just pop. I kind of want to try Praets as well, but I'm not sure that game was the best indicator of their ability. The IG player made a lot of mistakes so it's a bit misleading imo.
I was toying with bringing a squad of 9 tesla TB against gaunt spam. 9 TB puts out 36 tesla shots a turn, on a more mobile and durable chassis than immortals, ignores the cover bonuses (which is critical for most armies in this edition). Run them with a screening unit of scarabs (so they can pick the combats/get the hell out of dodge if scary cc comes near them) and they are a nasty little unit. Run them near a CCB (can keep up with them very well, and provides his own CC threat/tesla platform), with the 12" command wave, and that unit is now hitting with the 36 tesla shots on 2+, proccing on 5+. They have the 'FLY' keyword so they can fall back and shoot, which immortals cannot. Stick them in cover, and they are also a 2+ save with 2 wounds.... . Point a stalker at the unit you want dead and they're now rerolling 1's. The buffs stack up, but it does eat a lot of the force. Even min with scarabs is 500 points odd for the unit and min. screen. And if you want the same but against elite/shooty armies, then put gauss on them. Ridiculous amount of shots of high quality, cover ignoring gauss. Also
Effective, flexible but expensive, so nowhere near as spammy as 7th, but they are a lot stronger units now considering the meta.
Tomb Blades looks great and first i also take it on my list but they havent got Infrantry key word!
So you cant use MWBD or WoC on blade.
You cant also give blade chronometr or use resurection orb.
They can only get Technomancer.
They are still good but not with CCB and immortal can be better with all boost.
Any one recon it's a mistake in the IA xenos book about the double costing of the staff of light. ( it's listed in both the shooting and Melee section) both say 18 points.
Ask if it's a mistake as in norm book it's only listed once in the xenos book.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Still the best looking necron flyer though.
Seeing that stupid gaping hole in the cockpit of the GW ones gives me a head ache.
"Oh dear, an enemy aircraft. Where oh where am I going to shoot it?!"
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Still the best looking necron flyer though.
Seeing that stupid gaping hole in the cockpit of the GW ones gives me a head ache.
"Oh dear, an enemy aircraft. Where oh where am I going to shoot it?!"
Hmm. Tomb Blades are about the only reason i'd consider using a Command Barge, but the idea does have some merit. A TB is only 8 points more than two Immortals for the same woudns and firepower, with the difference in T and Sv probably being a close to a wash. 5 TBs are just over 200 points and do put out a silly amount of firepower. Toss in some Scarabs and Wraiths and you have a nice mobile wing force.
Grimgold wrote: Watched that same FLG batrep, though the real star of that bat rep was the scythe lychguard. Though it did get me to try out Praetorians andy they worked great against primaris marines killed two intercessor squads, two lieutenants, and finished off his hellblasters before he finally got them.
Honestly the real star of that Batrep was the AM doing questionable decisions like shooting all their firepower into the Warriors when the Basilisk could have easily iced the HDestroyers or any other number of more prominent targest. And then he ran all of his vehicles into charge/rapid fire range without doing any damage on the way in. Running up to the massive LoS blocking terrain that is hiding very strong, untouched melee units is bad at best.
I'm not saying that the Necrons were handed the game but it clearly could have gone much worse for them.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: By the way, do you guys think that Immortals should be run in units of 10 whenever possible, or is it worth splitting them into 5s for MSU?
I think it depends. If you don't want to bring an Overlord and instead want to focus on Crypteks or DLords, units of 5 is good. Also, if you want the Battalion bonus and the solid Tesla shooting but don't want to dump 1/6 of your army into Troops, min units are fine too.
Tomb Blades looks great and first i also take it on my list but they havent got Infrantry key word!
So you cant use MWBD or WoC on blade.
You cant also give blade chronometr or use resurection orb.
They can only get Technomancer.
They are still good but not with CCB and immortal can be better with all boost.
Well there goes that idea. The whole point of Tesla is to explode it on a 5+. Oh well. As you were gentlemen.
Tomb Blades looks great and first i also take it on my list but they havent got Infrantry key word!
So you cant use MWBD or WoC on blade.
You cant also give blade chronometr or use resurection orb.
They can only get Technomancer.
They are still good but not with CCB and immortal can be better with all boost.
Well there goes that idea. The whole point of Tesla is to explode it on a 5+. Oh well. As you were gentlemen.
They can still benefit from a Stalker's reroll 1s buff, so that may be worth keeping in mind.
But yes, for the most part it would appear Tesla Tomb Blades are an autonomous place-and-forget unit (like MSU T.Immortals).
I think TBs would work best with GBs. They have the speed to always be in rapid fire if they want to. 4 shots per TB with ap-2 you will force yoir opponent to respond or have a bad day.
My main problem with TBs was, and remains, that they give the opponent a relatively soft target for multi-wound weapons. A DS Scion plasma squad will erase great chunks of a TB unit in one round of fire. That's why even with the movement bonus, most of my lists still go for immortals if I want Tesla - it is roughly the same wounds, but 1W models take some of the efficiency away from multi-wound weapons (as does QS).
The above is why I think Silver Tide with bulk QS vehicles is probably the most competitive Necron build we;ve talked about so far, at least if the mania for mullti-wound weapons we see on Dakka remains true of your local tournament scene.
Fenris-77 wrote: My main problem with TBs was, and remains, that they give the opponent a relatively soft target for multi-wound weapons. A DS Scion plasma squad will erase great chunks of a TB unit in one round of fire. That's why even with the movement bonus, most of my lists still go for immortals if I want Tesla - it is roughly the same wounds, but 1W models take some of the efficiency away from multi-wound weapons (as does QS).
The above is why I think Silver Tide with bulk QS vehicles is probably the most competitive Necron build we;ve talked about so far, at least if the mania for mullti-wound weapons we see on Dakka remains true of your local tournament scene.
But deepstriking scion plasma squads are going for the arks and vehicles. I know they are spammy but remember any that don't wipe a squad now have to survive a round of necron shooting (which they won't) and then we RP back to health.
MSU is good to fill battalion slots, but big blobs are better for RP, depends on your list.
I still think if your going the set and forget route for tesla/gauss, TB beat immortals every time. While buffed Immortals are very good, unless you play them aggressively (and therefore put your squishy overlord in range for slay the warlord), your not getting as much out of them as you would TB. TB can grab objectives, have immortals 3+ cover save naturally, etc etc. considering how fast everything moves this edition the slower you are the more of a disadvantage you are.
I feel 40 warriors and a deceiver is a very good offence, 80 gauss shots per turn on very durable basic troops is scary for every army out there, and will distract them from the rest of your army. If they are supported by enourmous damage from TB, your looking at a T1 threat capable of wiping so much of an enemies front line most games.
I still haven't found a way to beat 18 Dark Lance's and 11 Blasters plus a bunch of Venoms from Dark Eldar, Ynnari with 3 units of Wraithguard in Wave Serpents supported by a Wraithknight and Eldrad, or Chaos with 2 Knights and Magnus and 80 Brimstone Horrors with a Changeling.
Marshal_Gus wrote: I still haven't found a way to beat 18 Dark Lance's and 11 Blasters plus a bunch of Venoms from Dark Eldar, Ynnari with 3 units of Wraithguard in Wave Serpents supported by a Wraithknight and Eldrad, or Chaos with 2 Knights and Magnus and 80 Brimstone Horrors with a Changeling.
I'm looking into how to get 1-2 Pylons for cheap.
Wraiths and silver tide? No mortal wounds in that group, all soft targets, and with weapons that are meh against wraiths and warriors/immortals. No need for heavy destroyers or a DDA, flayers and gauss blasters work fine on everything DE have. Probably a unit of deathmarks as well because scourges deserve to get ethereal intercepted. Haven't faced DE yet so I can't talk about the match up beyond the conceptual level, but deceiver bomb should also ruin their day, because they want to keep you at arm's length because of how fragile they are.
Wraiths and silver tide? No mortal wounds in that group, all soft targets, and with weapons that are meh against wraiths and warriors/immortals. No need for heavy destroyers or a DDA, flayers and gauss blasters work fine on everything DE have. Probably a unit of deathmarks as well because scourges deserve to get ethereal intercepted. Haven't faced DE yet so I can't talk about the match up beyond the conceptual level, but deceiver bomb should also ruin their day, because they want to keep you at arm's length because of how fragile they are.
I played against a not entirely optimised DE parking lot yesterday, let me tell you it's not as easy to crack as it looks. in fact, even with a DDA in attendance, I never did crack more than half his vehicles, and the cheerfully relentless firepower of a dozen dark lances, blasters and an unholy amount of splinter rifle's (open topped remember) on platforms with movement fast enough to make Necrons look like they're standing still allowed him to essentially pick a unit (or two in one case) and wipe it entirely off the board, or simply ignore the bulk of the army and focus on claiming objectives.
By the end of the game I still had almost half my army, but after four turns I was down 10 victory points, and I had killed a single venom outright and put wounds on almost everything else. But hitting on 3's, wounding on 5's and then them getting an armour save for their vehicles is a tough, tough nut to crack. A smart DE player is NEVER going to let you into rapid fire range, and fifteen shots per warrior blob is just not going to cut it.
I'm beginning to think that it is going to be essential to field a Necron army with a heavy deep strike component.
Oh last thought, Deceiver bomb doesn't work so well against parking lot, as deploying units in vehicles counts as one deployment, not two, meaning you will go second more often than you think. Even with a command point reroll, seizing the initiative is not a viable strategy.
Crypteks are the boss. Every warrior squad should have one.
Requizen wrote: I think it depends. If you don't want to bring an Overlord and instead want to focus on Crypteks or DLords, units of 5 is good. Also, if you want the Battalion bonus and the solid Tesla shooting but don't want to dump 1/6 of your army into Troops, min units are fine too.
1x Deathleaper
2x Flying Hive Tyrants
1x Old one eye
2x Carnifex's
3x Warriors
3x Lictors
1x Trygon (maybe a prime)
1x Mawloc
3x Zoanthrops
90x Hormagaunts (the shooty ones)
First off, tabled him my T4, and I had first turn. Also won 12-5 in objectives. I only lost a unit of scarabs the entire game, and all my vehicles did not lose an efficiency tier.
Things to note:
- Tesseract Vault is amazing against hordes. Stupid amount of tesla, brutal overwatch. He just didnt have the weaponry to kill that much AV, and with regen from the spyder and Toholk it was very effective.
- Tesseract Ark. Holy hell this is awesome. I screened it with scarabs as a front line vehicle, bottlenecked his army and just blasted them with this. Amazing shooting platform, with QS and a 5++ its super resilient. Legit purchasing one right now.
- Tesla in general is super effective, even without MBWD. Anni barge did alot of damage, vault, tesla on ark.
- Monolith is also super effective, couldn't even do wounds to it and it has enough dakka to force lots of squads into break tests.
- Heat ray sentry pylon. This thing. For 175 points you get a better shooting platform than the DDA. It puts out 6 shots a turn vs D3, still has a very good AP and D6 damage. It doesn't have the range but it only got charged once in the game. These are cheaper than DDA, and paired with a stalker would be BRUTAL. Park them midfield for very effective mid range damage.
- Scarab screens are amazing. Lock them in their turn, fall back and then blast them, but only fall back enough to deny the charge on your flyers.
- Fly keyword is so handy! It means your effectiveness is only slightly impaired and the amount of damage this list puts out is very, very good.
- Toholk didnt get the chance to reroll the seize, but his regen helped my DDA after a mawloc attack.
Off to Thailand tomorrow, but going to try and do a maxed TB squad vs Slaanesh and Tzeench demons when I get back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im only 2 for 2 so far in games, but both times vehicles have won me the games. Against IG I had the objectives but needed to survive a tabling to win, which I did due to having too many wounds on my vehicles.
Second game they were too tough to crack. Not saying it would work against DE, but just spam pylons against armies like that, watch them die quick smart.
You know what would be kinda funny?
A Deceiver Bomb using multiple Tesseract Vaults/Obelisks.
"Gotta keep 24" away from all that Tesla... oh. Welp, now he's right on top of me with it."
Probably something more that could be done with the points used on Scarabs, but just figured a bunch of cheap things to go after objectives wouldn't be a bad idea.
Maybe 5x3 might be better than 3x5?
skoffs wrote: You know what would be kinda funny?
A Deceiver Bomb using multiple Tesseract Vaults/Obelisks.
"Gotta keep 24" away from all that Tesla... oh. Welp, now he's right on top of me with it."
Probably something more that could be done with the points used on Scarabs, but just figured a bunch of cheap things to go after objectives wouldn't be a bad idea.
Maybe 5x3 might be better than 3x5?
I found scarabs not too unsurvivable. They died to a particularly nasty trygon prime in one round of CC, but otherwise they went relatively unscathed before that, a mawloc and a couple of lictors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the looks of the complaints on the FW threads, seems like we get the most out of it. The pylon is suuuuper strong against titans, hard counter to them infact, and one of the cheapest titan weapons.
On top of that, the pylons and ark are amazing! like solid as a rock, if supported by spyder and scarabs they are a potent weapon.
HQ's have very, very good abilities's considering their competition.
Even the rest of the canoptek equipment is good. Only thing thats bad is the Night Shroud
Actually, for keeping vehicles alive, what would work out better?
Toholk or a Fab.Claw Spyder?
A vehicle only regains 1-3 wounds a turn via Toholk, where as a vehicle next to a Spyder would regain 2-4 a turn (Claw + Living Metal).
Yes, Toholk has other Cryptek buffs he can give out, but they're all infantry buffs. If you're going vehicle heavy that's not going to be as useful.
Yes, you'll need an HQ to fulfill certain requirements, but a Sword-Lord + Spyder w/ Claw and Gloom Prism is the exact same price as just Toholk by himself.
...
Actually, looking at it again, I'm not seeing a point to taking him anymore.
skoffs wrote: But, again, what does Toholk have going for him that a Spyder (or two!) can't do better?
Spyders dont fill a HQ slot, if your going heavy mech, and have warriors, there is no better HQ for the army, as he can buff both the warriors and regen the vehicles. The spyder cant do that, and its shooting is underwhelming, as is its CC. The cryptek isnt atrocious at either.
skoffs wrote: But, again, what does Toholk have going for him that a Spyder (or two!) can't do better?
Spyders dont fill a HQ slot, if your going heavy mech, and have warriors, there is no better HQ for the army, as he can buff both the warriors and regen the vehicles. The spyder cant do that, and its shooting is underwhelming, as is its CC. The cryptek isnt atrocious at either.
He can only give regen to one vehicle that he starts beside on the very first turn. In 7th he could give d3 vehicles IWND.
Slightly OT, but is anyone else confused by the stats for voidblades vs hyperphase swords? Theyre both cc weapon choices for lords, they both seem to have the same stats, but one is twice the price of the other? ô_o
Tyr13 wrote: Slightly OT, but is anyone else confused by the stats for voidblades vs hyperphase swords? Theyre both cc weapon choices for lords, they both seem to have the same stats, but one is twice the price of the other? ô_o
They liked the statline, but the point differential for had to be exaggerated for Praetorians (who use Voidblades) versus Lychguard (who use hyperphase swords).
I expect they did not intend for Voidblades to be usable by HQs.
Tyr13 wrote: Slightly OT, but is anyone else confused by the stats for voidblades vs hyperphase swords? Theyre both cc weapon choices for lords, they both seem to have the same stats, but one is twice the price of the other? ô_o
I'm guessing that it's something to do with balancing Praetorians against Lychguard. But you're right - it's a bloody stupid way of going about it (and I don't see why they needed to by given the same stats in the first place).
I mean, even if they wanted to give HQs both options for modelling purposes, they could have done what they did elsewhere and put 2 prices on them - one for HQs and one for other models.
Also, while we're on the subject, where is the option for Gauntlets of Fire on HQs? I don't care that it wasn't great - it was still one of my favourite options. Every other race got to at least keep their weapons, yet we - a race already suffering from limited customisation - weren't even allowed that small mercy.
Also, while we're on the subject, where is the option for Gauntlets of Fire on HQs? I don't care that it wasn't great - it was still one of my favourite options. Every other race got to at least keep their weapons, yet we - a race already suffering from limited customisation - weren't even allowed that small mercy.
Imotekh have Gauntlets and you can check stats in his profile. Other hq cant get it.
So if I'm updating my 7th edition destroyer cult army and have two destroyer lords, should I go scythe or staff of light?
I'm thinking in 2000 points I can fit two detachments for +2 command points, stick 6+5+5 destroyers in one and 3+3+3 heavies in the other, leaving me down 2 regular and 3 heavy from my 7th edition list.
changemod wrote: So if I'm updating my 7th edition destroyer cult army and have two destroyer lords, should I go scythe or staff of light?
I'm thinking in 2000 points I can fit two detachments for +2 command points, stick 6+5+5 destroyers in one and 3+3+3 heavies in the other, leaving me down 2 regular and 3 heavy from my 7th edition list.
Definitely Scythe. The shooting from the staff isn't worth being so much more in melee.
Tyr13 wrote: Slightly OT, but is anyone else confused by the stats for voidblades vs hyperphase swords? Theyre both cc weapon choices for lords, they both seem to have the same stats, but one is twice the price of the other? ô_o
I'm guessing that it's something to do with balancing Praetorians against Lychguard. But you're right - it's a bloody stupid way of going about it (and I don't see why they needed to by given the same stats in the first place).
I mean, even if they wanted to give HQs both options for modelling purposes, they could have done what they did elsewhere and put 2 prices on them - one for HQs and one for other models.
Also, while we're on the subject, where is the option for Gauntlets of Fire on HQs? I don't care that it wasn't great - it was still one of my favourite options. Every other race got to at least keep their weapons, yet we - a race already suffering from limited customisation - weren't even allowed that small mercy.
Welcome to 8th ed Necron Index, where GW decided that the faction known for their gimmicks and advanced gear isn't allowed to have them anymore. For reasons.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Welcome to 8th ed Necron Index, where GW decided that the faction known for their gimmicks and advanced gear isn't allowed to have them anymore. For reasons.
Actually, the thing Necrons were most known for was their anti-vehicle prowess.
And now...
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Welcome to 8th ed Necron Index, where GW decided that the faction known for their gimmicks and advanced gear isn't allowed to have them anymore. For reasons.
Actually, the thing Necrons were most known for was their anti-vehicle prowess.
And now...
Yes...which was a gimmick. That they no longer have.
My statement is still accurate.
Though to be fair, it went from "gauss is good against vehicle" gimmick to "gauss has better penetration" gimmick. Which is more accurate fluff wise, tbh.
I'll be running a Triarch Stalker and I want to ask, if it would be an viable option to run it with 2 Annihilation Barges.
I'll pair it with some Teslortals and warriors, babysitted by an Olord and Crytek..
I'll go for 1,500 , later 2000 Points.
Or should I just skip the Anni-Barges and straight buy 2 D'Arks to stick to the stalker? It's my anti-vehicle option mainly.
If you're looking for anti-vehicle, I'd definitely go for the Doomsday Arks over the Annihilation Barges. The Barges seem pretty poor at the best of times and I certainly don't see them doing much to tanks.
I'll be running a Triarch Stalker and I want to ask, if it would be an viable option to run it with 2 Annihilation Barges.
I'll pair it with some Teslortals and warriors, babysitted by an Olord and Crytek..
I'll go for 1,500 , later 2000 Points.
Or should I just skip the Anni-Barges and straight buy 2 D'Arks to stick to the stalker? It's my anti-vehicle option mainly.
If you're looking for anti-vehicle, I'd definitely go for the Doomsday Arks over the Annihilation Barges. The Barges seem pretty poor at the best of times and I certainly don't see them doing much to tanks.
Tesseract Ark seems to be the best here. In fact, it can serve both the roles of a DDA and an AB and is strictly better than either of them.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Welcome to 8th ed Necron Index, where GW decided that the faction known for their gimmicks and advanced gear isn't allowed to have them anymore. For reasons.
Actually, the thing Necrons were most known for was their anti-vehicle prowess.
And now...
They were only known for that if you couldn't perform an ounce of mathhamer.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Welcome to 8th ed Necron Index, where GW decided that the faction known for their gimmicks and advanced gear isn't allowed to have them anymore. For reasons.
Actually, the thing Necrons were most known for was their anti-vehicle prowess.
And now...
They were only known for that if you couldn't perform an ounce of mathhamer.
It's a hangover from the Harbinger's of the Storm days. I miss veiling a couple of those guys in to wipe away a Knight in a single volley.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Welcome to 8th ed Necron Index, where GW decided that the faction known for their gimmicks and advanced gear isn't allowed to have them anymore. For reasons.
Actually, the thing Necrons were most known for was their anti-vehicle prowess. And now...
They were only known for that if you couldn't perform an ounce of mathhamer.
TBF, that was in an edition where you can one shot vehicles with glances. It was totally possible to reliably kill vehicles with gauss pre-5th ed. Post 5th ed...not so much.
Jumping on the Dynasty train for 8th, I snagged 3 boxes of Necron stuff (2x start collecting and 1x warrior ark phalanx).
With a cryptek this all comes to just shy of 1500 points.
What I'm wondering about is what would be the recommended purchases for my next 500 points? I'm eyeing off two doomsday arks, but also some immortals and fast attack/deep strike choices for objective grabbing.
interviglium wrote: Jumping on the Dynasty train for 8th, I snagged 3 boxes of Necron stuff (2x start collecting and 1x warrior ark phalanx).
With a cryptek this all comes to just shy of 1500 points.
What I'm wondering about is what would be the recommended purchases for my next 500 points? I'm eyeing off two doomsday arks, but also some immortals and fast attack/deep strike choices for objective grabbing.
Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.
Deathmarks are really helpful against most armies. Deep strike into cover for 2+ and character sniping. Heavy weapons are better from FW if you can afford it, the tesseract ark and pylons are very, very good. Triarch stalker is good for whole army buffs.
Large warrior blobs supported by a ghost ark and a cryptek is very good base.
So, some anecdotal experience from my second game of 8th. My friend played Tau and another friend brought a small force of chaos marines. (He's getting back into the game and wanted to learn, so we put them on a team against me.) I brought 2500 points of necrons against them.
My list was:
Spoiler:
Overlord with scythe and orb
Cryptek
20 warriors
10 tesla immortals
10 Gauss immortals
Triarch stalker with HGC 5 Deathmarks
5 Deathmarks
6 Wraiths with no upgrades
9 Scarabs
Annihilation barge
Doomsday Ark
monolith
ghost Ark
I don't remember specifics of their list, but it was something like this:
Spoiler:
Tau:
Shadowsun
12 Firewarriors
12 Firewarriors
1 Riptide with HBC
3 Crisis with plasma, burst cannons, and missile pods
The flyer that's a fighter, not a bomber
12 Pathfinders
Broadside with missiles
Storm surge with Pulse driver
Chaos:
Terminator Lord
10 marines
Helbrute with Reaper autocannon
I kept the Gauss immortals in reserves via the monolith. But yeah. Marched up the board, deep struck the monolith and pelted stuff with the DArk. They had first turn and failed to do much damage. I shot the DArk at the Helbrute and one shotted it. The monolith came in and shielded the wraiths and Scarabs as they advanced, which then eventually took a few wounds off the Storm surge and we're ANNOYINGLY resilient to small arms fire. They rejoiced when they killed the scarabs finally, which is hilarious to me.
The monolith then brought in the immortals and they cleaned up shop, and the monolith ended up dealing about 8 or so wounds to the surge, which was brought down to 3 left with the aid of the DArk. It was finished off the following turn by the monolith. They did deep strike in my back field to deal with the DArk, which between the chaos Lord (shooting and melee) and the Crisis suits, it took 12 wounds. It then shifted out of combat and shot back (Gotta love Fly), and the rest of the game it regened another 4 wounds.
Tesla + MWBD essentially shot his flyer out of the sky in one go.
The monolith took about 7 wounds from the pulse driver, but otherwise was ignored because of the nuisance that was the Canopteks. It then regained about 3 wounds.
Overall the monolith is definitely worth another look. The BS 4+ didn't change much, and it's durability means they need to focus it down or forget about it.
The DArk is solid.
Wraiths and Scarabs are solid. Scarabs surprisingly so.
20 warriors camping an objective with a cryptek in cover with a ghost ark is really annoying.
Overall I'm more satisfied with crons than I thought I would be. This weekend I'll be trying out more elite units and Fast attacks.
Should we compile a "report card" for each section/unit in 8th?
eg.
HQ Imotekh: B+ (His lighting attack and weapon are pretty impressive, but he costs a ton. If you have a lot of Flayed Ones it may be worth taking him)
Zahndrekh: B- (His ability to shut down enemy aura effects can be pretty good. Just gotta have a way to get him close)
Trazyn: D (Probably the worst of the named characters. Not really sure what his point is)
Anrakyr: C (Probably our best fighty HQ, especially if accompanying choppy infantry (then he becomes an A)... really disappointing he has no methods of transport apart from on foot.)
Orikan: B (His inv save bubble is larger and extends to CC. If taking Lychguard he's an A)
Szeras: B (Good gun, but loses points for the randomness of his buff and lack of inv, plus no way to transport)
Obyron: C (Only really useful with Zahndrekh, and even then it's tricky to get his teleport gimmick to work)
Kutlakh [FW]: B (He's a bit expensive, but his bubble of influence is HUGE. He becomes an A if taking Lychguard)
Toholk [FW]: A (If there's a key vehicle in your army that needs to stay alive, you should be taking Toholk. Good weapon, too)
Overlord: A (Hands out MWBD for cheaper than all the named options. Beatstick with a Warscythe. Keep him near Immortals and Destroyers)
Destroyer Lord: A- (Another beatstick with a Warscythe. If you take him you best take Destroyers, too, as it increases his grade to A+)
Lord: C (Cheapest HQ to fill the detachment tax at 76 points w/ Sword. Handy requirement filler, but not much use apart from that)
Cryptek: A- (Great for expensive infantry, not needed for cheaper/smaller units, eg. Immortals. Fine if filling HQ requirement, but if arbitrarily adding to Warriors... just take more Warriors)
Catacomb Command Barge: F (Too expensive for how easy it is to kill. Would need to have CHARACTER keyword to be worth taking)
TROOPS Warriors: A- (Decent shooting, fairly survivable in big units. Best taken in bricks of 15-20. Having Cryptek or Ghost Ark nearby is good (one or the other, not both), but not required)
Immortals: A+ (Great shooting for both types of guns. Tesla better for longer distances, especially with MWBD and Stalker buff)
ELITE Deceiver: A- (Fantastic power for alpha strikes. C'tan powers merely okay)
Nightbringer: A- (Combat powerhouse against infantry. Gotta get him across the table first, though)
Deathmarks: B- (Good counter to deepstrike shenanigans, best method of removing non-monster enemy buff HQs, but not much use after that)
Flayed Ones: B (Fantastic attack power in large numbers. "Deepstrike" is a little awkward, with a 9" charge required)
Lychguard: C (Great hitting power, made even better when taken with Anrakyr. Pity they're too slow)
Triarch Stalker: A (Amazing force multiplier. May need multiple, as will be targeted immediately. Pairs well with Doomsday Arks if taking HGC)
Praetorians: C (Good speed, shooting, and attacks, but very difficult to buff and keep alive because no Dynasty keyword)
Tomb Stalker [FW]: A (Amazing movement, pretty killy, decent price. Worth considering for back field disruption)
FAST Destroyers: B (Fast, great shooting, but really expensive. Must be taken in units of 4+ to be viable. 3 +1 Heavy isn't bad)
Tomb Blades: B (Super fast, amazing shooting, but also pretty expensive. Very difficult to buff)
Wraiths: C (Fast and tough, but disappointingly mediocre damage)
Scarabs: A (Cheap, fast. Good for screening and chasing objectives)
Tomb Sentinel [FW]: A (Similar to its elite brother. Amazing movement, great gun, decent price. Worth considering for surprise tank killing)
Acathrites [FW]: B (Decent speed, good shooting and CC, but price to survivability ratio is a little skewed with no inv)
HEAVY Annihilation Barge: C (Fast, alright shooting, but too easy to kill. Decent against hordes. If you're going to take one, you better be bringing other vehicles, too)
Spyder: C+ (Worth taking with Fabricator Claw if taking lots of Vehicles. Otherwise not really much use, as "Scarab Farm" army is dead)
Heavy Destroyers: B+ (Fast, great anti-vehicle shooting. Would be higher but just too expensive for a unit that must be taken in 3s to be viable. Big target for multi wound weapons)
Transcendent C'tan: D+ (Not great, especially compared to his unique elite brothers. Rarely taken)
Doomsday Ark: A (One of our best anti-vehicle units. Great with Stalker support. Try to deploy last so you can get good line of site on enemy key units)
Monolith: C+ (Glorified drop pod. Decent shooting, hard to kill, but a little overpriced.)
Tesseract Ark [FW]: A+ (Our premier anti-vehicle unit. Good at pretty much everything)
Sentry Pylon [FW]: A- (Great shooting from all three types. Due to Heavy, probably not a great idea to teleport in and shoot, with -1 to hit)
FLYERS Night Scythe: B (Decent shooting. Can drop a single unit practically anywhere, though they cannot move after "disembarking")
Doom Scythe: D (Main gun always hits on a 4+. Fix that and maybe it might be worth the points)
Night Shroud [FW]: B+ (Cool bomb, but kind of gimmicky. Fairly survivable compared to other flyers)
TRANSPORT Ghost Ark: C+ (Alright speed and shooting, but lack of OPEN TOPPED keyword really hurts. Not absolutely required to accompany Warriors)
FORTIFICATION Tomb Citadel [FW]: F (No. Just get two Gauss Pylons for the price)
LORDS OF WAR Tesseract Vault: D+ (Too expensive for how little firepower it brings compared to other Lords of War. Slightly better than Obelisk)
Obelisk: D- (Too expensive for how little firepower it brings compared to other Lords of War)
Gauss Pylon [FW]: A+ (Amazing shooting. Primary anti-LoW weapon)
etc.
Can put it in the OP for new players to find more easily when trying to figure out what best to take.
Well, is warriors are an A (I disagree myself, I think they should be a B personally) then Immortals are an A+ for sure. One of the best troop unita in the game, having exceptionally good guns and durability. The only downside is the lack of special weapons and the slight weakness (as every MEQ has) to low AP guns.
Likewise, Heavy Destroyers should probably be an A; you basically need at least 3 of them if you're not running FW, and a super fast better-than-lascannon is pretty nice.
Tesseract Vault should be a D, because it's just bad, and Deathmarks should probably be a B-: useful, but pricey for a unit unlikely to actually complete its job.
Eyjio wrote: Well, is warriors are an A (I disagree myself, I think they should be a B personally) then Immortals are an A+ for sure. One of the best troop unita in the game, having exceptionally good guns and durability. The only downside is the lack of special weapons and the slight weakness (as every MEQ has) to low AP guns.
I'd agree with this.
I think quite a few of our HQs might need conditional ratings. e.g. Destroyer Lord will probably be A+ if you're taking Destroyers, but B otherwise. Crypteks will probably be A or A+ if your army includes large units of Warriors, B if it only includes Immortals or minimum Warrior squads and D if you don't have either.
Overlords can probably have a straight A or A+ rating.
FORTIFICATION
Tomb Citadel: (40pp/830pts for a reroll of 1s of RP and a 5++. Got worse in almost every way from its 7th edition incarnation. No. Just no. Get two Gauss Pylons instead.)
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: does a Tomb Spyder's Scarab Hive ability require Reinforcement Points?
No.
You're just replacing models from units that were previously lost during the course of the game, like you do with RP, not making new units like Daemons do.
Cryptek rated with A? Lol, he cost almost as much as 10 warriors and there will be many situations when you won't use his RP boost. I rate him B like B-etter take more warriors.
Immortals are worse than Warriors simply because it is easier to kill them (10W max) and therefor deny them any RP rolls.
Xyxel wrote: Cryptek rated with A? Lol, he cost almost as much as 10 warriors and there will be many situations when you won't use his RP boost. I rate him B like B-etter take more warriors.
Immortals are worse than Warriors simply because it is easier to kill them (10W max) and therefor deny them any RP rolls.
Stalker and Doomsday Ark are A.
He also passes out an invuln buff and is functionally a special weapon trooper. Plus you should be able to position him to buff at least two units, possibly more at deployment.
It might be a bit to early to fill in the report card yet, and it will always be difficult to mark each individual unit when many of them are much better in combination with other things. Tesla immortals are pretty good on their own but awesome when combined with an overlord for MWBD.
I'll rate the DDA an A though. Everyone I have faced has been pretty shocked when a scary anti tank cannon suddenly jumps forward and starts shredding infantry.
I think I'd be tempted to give the humble warrior an A too. Really solid for their points and can benefit from loads of buffs.
Orikan is an A for me. Needs to have infantry to buff of course.
I think Heavy Destroyers are great for the points but often being the only good target for D6 damage weapons makes them worse in practice.
Xyxel wrote: Cryptek rated with A? Lol, he cost almost as much as 10 warriors and there will be many situations when you won't use his RP boost. I rate him B like B-etter take more warriors.
.
Is this based on in game experience or the math hammering of something that can't really be math hammered? In my experience, if your taking 2 big infantry units or 3+ medium units, a Cryptek (Orikan) is A for auto-include.
@changemod
yes, you can buff two units but 3" range is very limiting for our already slow troopers. Tried that with 2x 20 Warriors and you have to strech those units to be flexible in movement.
@Moosatronic
yes, based on 8 games. Smart opponent won't shoot 20 warriors if he can't kill it outright. = RP bonus waisted
Small arms fire focused on them won't be bothered with 5++ save, it's enough to use AP-1 or 0 dakka to do the trick.
Currently I'm playing with one 20 Warriors blob as a bait. If enemy shoot them with 1-damage dakka, then he don't shoot it at my vehicles which are easily destroyed with T6. Then enemy is left only with multi-damage weapons to shoot my quantum shielding. Basically there is no good target for anti-tank weapons against Necrons, unless you bring Destroyers.
Xyxel wrote: Cryptek rated with A? Lol, he cost almost as much as 10 warriors and there will be many situations when you won't use his RP boost. I rate him B like B-etter take more warriors.
I was just trying to illustrate how their ratings may change based on what units you take.
Xyxel wrote: Immortals are worse than Warriors simply because it is easier to kill them (10W max) and therefor deny them any RP rolls.
They're less durable than warriors in terms of numbers, sure, but they also have much better guns and also better saves.
@Moosatronic
yes, based on 8 games. Smart opponent won't shoot 20 warriors if he can't kill it outright. = RP bonus waisted
Small arms fire focused on them won't be bothered with 5++ save, it's enough to use AP-1 or 0 dakka to do the trick.
This is a common misconception. This is not a a waste, this is your opponent adapting to your strengths instead of the other way around. Plan on this and use it to your tactical advantage.
I think people are downgrading Anrykar for his cherry on top Pyrrhian ability. If it was limited to be defensive by rule then it would not be perceived as a downside, to pyrrhia-phrase: "If your favorite shooty unit is forced into CC by an enemy unit they get an additional attack." MWBD with Tessla is Immortal...
Tokhuah wrote: I think people are downgrading Anrykar for his cherry on top Pyrrhian ability. If it was limited to be defensive by rule then it would not be perceived as a downside, to pyrrhia-phrase: "If your favorite shooty unit is forced into CC by an enemy unit they get an additional attack." MWBD with Tessla is Immortal...
Also, you can charge after using rapid fire weapons now.
So if you have a block of 20 warriors, you get 40 shots, followed by 40 attacks. You are probably going to kill something.
Tokhuah wrote: I think people are downgrading Anrykar for his cherry on top Pyrrhian ability. If it was limited to be defensive by rule then it would not be perceived as a downside, to pyrrhia-phrase: "If your favorite shooty unit is forced into CC by an enemy unit they get an additional attack." MWBD with Tessla is Immortal...
Yup. He's great at making your shooty guys hold up in combat and using MWBD. 20 Warriors with MWBD rapid firing then charging is 80 S4 attacks hitting on 2's. If you put him with Lychguard there is a good chance of them overkilling or just being a bigger waste of points if they don't make combat, the situations in which Anrakyrs makes a useful difference are limited.
Orikan and Anrakyr are probably my top choice for a pair of HQs to support an infantry horde.
Kuguar6 wrote: Ghost ark can transport all necrons characters. So all hq have transport option.
It's about time someone tried to put sketch out what the old Royal Court disco inferno (or whatever it used to be called) looks like in 8th. My guess is very bad.
wombis wrote: In regards to the sentry pylon using it's teleportation matrix to deploy, does that count as having moved for the purpose of heavy weapons?
I have seen people mention the Gauss Pylon as being uber. It looks like it costs 475 points, which would seem to price it out of a 2,000 point build. Am I missing something?
Tokhuah wrote: I have seen people mention the Gauss Pylon as being uber. It looks like it costs 475 points, which would seem to price it out of a 2,000 point build. Am I missing something?
Why would it being 475 points mean you couldn't take it in a 2000 point list?
Tokhuah wrote: I have seen people mention the Gauss Pylon as being uber. It looks like it costs 475 points, which would seem to price it out of a 2,000 point build. Am I missing something?
That's only ~70 points more than 2 Doomsday Arks and people are bringing 4 of those in regular lists.
For a bit more than 2 DDArks, you're getting: Higher Toughness, 2 more Wounds, better save, Invuln (that it passes to nearby allies), Reserve ability, similar number of shots (average, though it trades the Array shooting), higher average damage (especially against Titanic), better shooting against Flyers (most Xenos vehicles, lots of special units like Flyrants and Greater Daemons), better Wounding, etc. It's almost insane how much better it is. It will, on average, I believe, remove a vehicle per turn and has the ability to one shot a Baneblade Variant with no real problem. It should one shot a Wraithknight with no Shield on an average roll.
The downside is that if you go against foot-heavy lists, things with no monsters/vehicles, it will be a lot less effective since the secondary fire type isn't as good as the Flayer Arrays. But at this point in time there seems to be an abundance of big models out there. And also, our Infantry and other Vehicles are really good at dealing with those types of lists anyway, so it's no big deal.
It's worth the points at this point in time. So is the Tesseract Ark, in my opinion.
My plan wih the list was to put an overlord with each immortal unit, and Toholk with the warriors. Toholk would buff the stalker, since it degrades much faster than the gauss pylon. Scarabs would screen the pylon and the stalker. I know Overlords are better with warscythes, but I didn't have the points for those since I wanted to get another CP by adding an outrider detachment. I could get rid of an overlord, and add the scarabs to the battalion. Then I'd have the points to give my other overlord a warscythe and add 8 more scarabs, to use as screens and objective grabbers, or 5 more tesla immortals and 2 more scarabs.
It's interesting that almost all of the FW units are at least an A grade with the exception of the insane dud of the Tomb Citadel. It's time to go back to attempting to assemble the rest of my Tomb Stalkers and the Sentinel AKA experiencing a centipede based fever dream.
Tokhuah wrote: I have seen people mention the Gauss Pylon as being uber. It looks like it costs 475 points, which would seem to price it out of a 2,000 point build. Am I missing something?
Why would it being 475 points mean you couldn't take it in a 2000 point list?
Sorry if I was overly definitive. Using 25% of a 2,000 point build for one model seems extremely risky. At least with x2 DDA you can split them up so they cannot be targeted by the same units (and I still need more proof that taking x2 of those is a good idea).
Tokhuah wrote: I have seen people mention the Gauss Pylon as being uber. It looks like it costs 475 points, which would seem to price it out of a 2,000 point build. Am I missing something?
Why would it being 475 points mean you couldn't take it in a 2000 point list?
Sorry if I was overly definitive. Using 25% of a 2,000 point build for one model seems extremely risky. At least with x2 DDA you can split them up so they cannot be targeted by the same units (and I still need more proof that taking x2 of those is a good idea).
In some ways I would agree with you, but there are people that play 4 Knight armies and do well in tournaments with them. Single big models are fine in current 40k, especially if the rest of your army can play the midfield like our Infantry and Canoptek units can.
Quickest would be to drop one of the Tesseract Arks for a couple ABarges or more Troops. Our Troops slots excel at killing hordes (or are at least above average at it), the vehicles not so much. ABarges with Tesla underslung are actually pretty ok at it, though.
After dropping an ark, I could add two immortals to each 8-man squad, give my overlords warscythes, and replace my 5-man inmortal unit with 20 warriors, for a total of 1988 points. This gives me more troops, and better performance against hordes. How does that sound? Thanks for the advice, it's very helpful.
I think 2 Overlords is overkill, personally. If you're planning on doing a blob of Warriors and 9 man units of Immortals, having at least one more Cryptek is probably not a bad idea, or a DLord to be a serious melee contender. But it's not that big of a deal, two uses of MWBD is pretty good anyway.
Regarding grading, I won't give Warriors anything higher than a B until Ghost Arks are considered Open Topped. Utterly ludicrous that Warriors can't fire from the top of it, and it hurts the way I like to play my Necrons: MOBILE.
A Barges are definitely not D+. They are perfectly suited for QS spam lists and horde control. They put out a stupid amount of dakka verus hordes. They are fast with the uber-significant fly ability and can claim objectives.
col_impact wrote: A Barges are definitely not D+. They are perfectly suited for QS spam lists and horde control. They put out a stupid amount of dakka verus hordes. They are fast with the uber-significant fly ability and can claim objectives.
A Barges do not degrade and thats cool, but they are nearly 150pts and they put on table the same level of anti orden as 10 bolters, that is not a "stupid amount of dakka" vs ordes in any order.
T6 w8 S4+ is not great for this points, even with QS. As vulnerable to small weapons as warriors (and warriors put more anti orden for the same points), far more vulnerable to autocannons, plasma, starcannons, battlecannon... and all the numerous D2 and DD3. A Barges aren't even particular y resistant to lascanons, with QS 6 lascannon impacts destroy an A Barge at average, the same number you need to destroy, at average, a taurox or a razordback, both of them cheaper and with more antiorde (and transport capacity).
I ran a pair of full tesla anni barges the other day and they smashed primaris by themselves. They took the entire starter set pretty easily. They definitely have a lot of firepowe. Don't under estimate hitting on 3s and wounding on 2-3 with a fist full of shots. Maybe I was lucky but I was averaging about 9-10 wounds per barge.
When I fought Primaris Marines their hell blasters took out my barge in a single overcharged volley. My opponent had a pretty good idea on how to fight me though. That I think is the general problem with the barges, if your opponent has a clue, quantum shielding is not hard to get around, and they don't have many wounds or a good save. They make tempting targets for first blood, and they kick like mules, so make a very logical target.
col_impact wrote: A Barges are definitely not D+. They are perfectly suited for QS spam lists and horde control. They put out a stupid amount of dakka verus hordes. They are fast with the uber-significant fly ability and can claim objectives.
A Barges do not degrade and thats cool, but they are nearly 150pts and they put on table the same level of anti orden as 10 bolters, that is not a "stupid amount of dakka" vs ordes in any order.
T6 w8 S4+ is not great for this points, even with QS. As vulnerable to small weapons as warriors (and warriors put more anti orden for the same points), far more vulnerable to autocannons, plasma, starcannons, battlecannon... and all the numerous D2 and DD3. A Barges aren't even particular y resistant to lascanons, with QS 6 lascannon impacts destroy an A Barge at average, the same number you need to destroy, at average, a taurox or a razordback, both of them cheaper and with more antiorde (and transport capacity).
Out of curiosity, have you actually tested them? Every person who has tested them, like I have, has found them to be potent and well-suited for certain roles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boogles wrote: I can confirm that the sentry pylon with heat cannon and the tesseract arc are A tier. I was wiping out vehicles left and right
Well at least Forgeworld has made Necrons great vehicle killers again!
skoffs wrote: No one is doubting A.Barges killiness, it's their survivability that we're concerned with.
As always it depends on what armies you usually play against. If it's horde armies, then the A Barges are pretty good. If your facing Marines, then they will not be as effective.
I tried one out against Orcs and it was terrific. Although I got really lucky with the dice and rolled a lot of sixes.
The Gauss Cannon is very underwhelming with its strength 5 hitting on 4+ since the A Barge should be moving most of the time.
GW really should up the strength to 8 on the Tesla Destructor in the Codex, that would make the A Barge a lot more viable.
Wounding most vehicles on 3+ would make it more versatile.
I disagree with the ratings for Szeras and Orikan. Szeras is a very potent unit buff. Losing the 5++ is a shame, but you're getting an almost-lascannon on a durable body which can hide in a blob. The unit buffs are nearly always good too - even S5 on a warrior buff is extremely effective, especially if the units has Anrakyr nearby; if you roll T5 or BS 2+, you're laughing. Conversely, I've often not found the 5++ to be worth the points - all the small arms fire is going into the unit regardless, and you usually get your normal save against that; it's only really beneficial against AP-2 or better, which usually targets our vehicles instead. Considering he patches up a hole in the army with his weapon, plus hands out RP buffs and potentially multiple unit buffs, I think he deserves a B rating.
The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.
Eyjio wrote: The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.
I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.
I think Anni barges are best against light tanks and MCs rather than hordes. They are very handy if you're facing Dark Eldar or Necron vehicles and things like War Walkers. Our big anti tank weapons don't care what your toughness and armor save are, which makes them efficient at blowing holes in land raiders, but not so much against things with invulnerable saves.
In 8th the difference between hordes and elite infantry (bikes or terminators) and light and heavy vehicles/MCs seems more pronounced, and it's more important to be using the right weapons for the job.
eg:
Tesla Immortals vs hordes
Destroyers vs elite 2w infantry.
Anni barges vs light vehicles
DDAs vs Heavy vehicles
It's a bit easier for Necrons as our Gauss weapons are pretty good against any of the first 3 categories.
Eyjio wrote: The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.
I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.
Yea I've found the 5++ isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially when you add cover into the mix. I feel szerath is one of the better crypteks, but I still rate toholk as the best of the bunch. All std abilities, buffs vehicles, allows seize rerolls (1st turn has helped me so much), and his weapon is better than average, with scary overwatch damage. Not overly expensive either. Orikan is best ran with lych, he's the best CC cryptek.
I'm not sold on H.Destroyers. Our vehicles (FW included) are comparable in damage and speed, but 10x more durable. I've found my vehicles have saved me from a tabling so I could win on points, something Destroyers can't promise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone complaining about warriors being bad because GA aren't open topped obviously haven't ran a D-bomb with 40 warriors. Putting 40 of them in rapid fire range t1 is a brutal alpha strike. Will shred horde and elite armies front lines equally efficiently. Being open topped would be handy, removing the necessity of 2x 20 man squads and just having 1x 20 and 1x 10 in a GA,
skoffs wrote: I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.
Right, but you're not taking Lychguard in every list, and he's a poor fit with Destroyers because he gives them nothing a Cryptek wouldn't plus has terrible movement comparatively. That makes him situationally excellent, but miles away from an auto-take, and often just ends up being quite a lot more points for the same function as a Cryptek. I really think that all the Crypteks are on about the same level, and that level is not on par with other top tier things like Immortals, Pylons, DDArk, etc. I've not played with Toholk, so he may be a little better, but he's also about 5 warriors more expensive than a normal Cryptek so probably also the same. I dunno, the only buff which has consistently made a difference in all my games has been the Overlord MWBD; nothing else has come close other than Szeras, and that's a bit too random to be relied on.
Comparing Tesla Immortals and Anni-Barges against hordes should involve farily straight forward maths.
Could it be that Anni Barges are best used when they are not considered the most important target?
I just saw the FLG's match where Necrons won agains AM in 4 turns. In it Reece had one or two Anni Barges that plunked wounds of Sentinels and tanks, quite undisturbed, while the AM army was busy dealing with warriors, praetorians, H. Destroyers and Lychguard. These other units were played to pose bigger threats, thus the Anni Barges were left alone to plunk off wounds where the other units left a few. Their high strength combined with tesla means they are quite reliable wounders. Leaving only the save statistic to worry about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have the feeling we are better off rating combinations of units.
Perhaps leave a crude score for units such as above, but focusing on combinations for detailed analysis.
skoffs wrote: I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.
Right, but you're not taking Lychguard in every list, and he's a poor fit with Destroyers because he gives them nothing a Cryptek wouldn't plus has terrible movement comparatively. That makes him situationally excellent, but miles away from an auto-take, and often just ends up being quite a lot more points for the same function as a Cryptek. I really think that all the Crypteks are on about the same level, and that level is not on par with other top tier things like Immortals, Pylons, DDArk, etc. I've not played with Toholk, so he may be a little better, but he's also about 5 warriors more expensive than a normal Cryptek so probably also the same. I dunno, the only buff which has consistently made a difference in all my games has been the Overlord MWBD; nothing else has come close other than Szeras, and that's a bit too random to be relied on.
Well toholk helps with anni barges fragility. And the reroll seize is powerful, if not reliable. Bit of redundancy in a tourney setting if up against harlequins etc. Yes I agree MWBD is very strong, but if two HQs are needed and a cryptek is being considered, lash out on the ol blind one. His gun deals additional mortal wounds on 6's, seriously hurt death leaper when he tried a charge last game. If you have warrior blobs and vehicles and are vs'ing elite armies, bring toholk.
I feel szerath is better than orikan. In a standard game a basic cryptek is probably the way to go, if you have the points spare get toholk or szerath. But it's nice having the rest as you can build good combos around them. It's good to have options
Could it be that Anni Barges are best used when they are not considered the most important target?
This is my thinking too. In my QS spam list I hid it behind my monolith, and because I had a tesseract vault and ark absorbing attention, my barge was left to its own devices. If barges are your only vehicles they will die, if there are bigger threats they should be fine.
By the way, If I'm using Immortal squads, is there any value in investing in a Cryptek (or one of the SC Crypteks), or should I just put those points towards more Immortals?
torblind wrote: Also I find the Anni Barges comfortably illusive, you remember gorging on all those 6'es that came when you needed them. And forget it's misses.
Tesla is one hit per shot on BS3+, it's not all that. Everybody expects to get more than 4 hits on 4 Tesla dice, though they shouldn't.
NP, my example should have been on 8 not 4 shots for added clarity.
I know from observing myself that I have grown accustomed to hoping for more hits than shots, which is not unlikely, just not expected. Others probably have too. It might lead you to value it too highly.
Fair point on Orikan. I'll change him to a B, with conditional A status if taking Lychguard.
Also, if you're taking Toholk, giving his one-vehicle-only ability to an A.Barge would be a huge waste. Presumably if you're taking him its because you have something worth keeping alive.
And for whoever asked about taking Crypteks with Immortals, no. Just get more immortals instead.
Technically, for nameless Crypteks with any of the legal targets at this time, they never make their points back on RP nor the Invulnerable save. Setting aside Detachment requirements and their shooting, you're always simply better off taking more of that model.
vipoid wrote: Quick question, guys - if I use 10 Deathmarks do you think it's better to run them as a single 10-man squad or as 2 5-man squads?
10man is better for:
-Survivability
-Getting first turn
5man is better for:
-Threat density
-Multi-targets with low wound counts
I prefer the 10man squad, but my lists with Deathmarks are only casual builds and do not have other more critical infantry targets for my opponents to shoot at.
If so, I'll stick it in the OP.
(remember, this is primarily for new players who want a rough estimate on the "power levels" for everything available to Necrons. Can always edit it as the meta evolves)
If so, I'll stick it in the OP.
(remember, this is primarily for new players who want a rough estimate on the "power levels" for everything available to Necrons. Can always edit it as the meta evolves)
If so, I'll stick it in the OP.
(remember, this is primarily for new players who want a rough estimate on the "power levels" for everything available to Necrons. Can always edit it as the meta evolves)
Hey, my friend is starting Necrons. He got Immortals and start collecting.
What should he get next?
3x immortals
warriors
2x DDA(1 of them can be the ghost ship if needed)
3 destroyers
destro lord
one of the c'thans
Something like that?
Or better go FW ?
He'd like to make a 1000 and a 2000 list
rvd1ofakind wrote: Hey, my friend is starting Necrons. He got Immortals and start collecting.
What should he get next?
3x immortals
warriors
2x DDA(1 of them can be the ghost ship if needed)
3 destroyers
destro lord
one of the c'thans
Something like that?
Or better go FW ?
He'd like to make a 1000 and a 2000 list
Is he just interested in a functional Necron army, or are there any units/strategies that appeal to him?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Hey, my friend is starting Necrons. He got Immortals and start collecting.
What should he get next?
3x immortals
warriors
2x DDA(1 of them can be the ghost ship if needed)
3 destroyers
destro lord
one of the c'thans
Something like that?
Or better go FW ?
He'd like to make a 1000 and a 2000 list
Is he just interested in a functional Necron army, or are there any units/strategies that appeal to him?
He want a good army that doesn't need to buy more than 4x of the same box pretty much. 4x immortals is the only "4 of" so far.
I have a box of lychguard/praetorians to assemble and I'm stuck on deciding what way to go. The praetorians seem really fun to use actually as if I build up to a 10 man I got a fairly mobile unit that shrugs off moral checks.
But with them lychguard and how hard they hit it's super tempting. Also if I do invest more into lychguard to run with FW Kutlahk, how many should I go with?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Hey, my friend is starting Necrons. He got Immortals and start collecting.
What should he get next?
3x immortals
warriors
2x DDA(1 of them can be the ghost ship if needed)
3 destroyers
destro lord
one of the c'thans
Something like that?
Or better go FW ?
He'd like to make a 1000 and a 2000 list
Is he just interested in a functional Necron army, or are there any units/strategies that appeal to him?
He want a good army that doesn't need to buy more than 4x of the same box pretty much. 4x immortals is the only "4 of" so far.
Wait, so to confirm,
Right now he has:
??x Immortals
12x Warriors
1x Stalker
1x Overlord
3x Scarabs
sieGermans wrote: Technically, for nameless Crypteks with any of the legal targets at this time, they never make their points back on RP nor the Invulnerable save. Setting aside Detachment requirements and their shooting, you're always simply better off taking more of that model.
The value of durability buffs on units with RP is not something you can mathammer.
If a buff pushes a unit past a particular threshold of durability which means they are not wiped in one turn the effect is massive. If a warrior squad would have been wiped out without an invul, but instead has a few models left, it can potentially RP back to full strength by the end of the game. The Cryptek giving that invul could be said to have made you back 240pts. Conversely, if a unit is wiped out then the RP buff from a Cryptek has no effect and that ability could be useless.
This is further complicated by the fact that a wise opponent will be calculating the probability of wiping a RP unit out before they start shooting. They may not fire at all if they don't have good odds of doing the job. How do you mathammer for the probability threshold at which any given opponent is going to feel comfortable shooting at you?
The value of a Cryptek is not in it's ability to bring back 1 extra model for every 6 RP rolls, it is in it's ability to prevent the unit being wiped so that it can do RPs (and then get a couple extra back up to make it harder again next turn). How likely that is to happen depends on what you're facing and how easy it is for them to focus fire on one unit.
You have to play it out to see what difference it makes in real games.
He has 5 immortals. You're right otherwise. He really wants a DDA so it's all good, he'll buy it and warriors seperatelly. Shipping costs too much to EU.
Eyjio wrote: The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.
I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.
Yea I've found the 5++ isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially when you add cover into the mix. I feel szerath is one of the better crypteks, but I still rate toholk as the best of the bunch. All std abilities, buffs vehicles, allows seize rerolls (1st turn has helped me so much), and his weapon is better than average, with scary overwatch damage. Not overly expensive either. Orikan is best ran with lych, he's the best CC cryptek.
I'm not sold on H.Destroyers. Our vehicles (FW included) are comparable in damage and speed, but 10x more durable. I've found my vehicles have saved me from a tabling so I could win on points, something Destroyers can't promise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone complaining about warriors being bad because GA aren't open topped obviously haven't ran a D-bomb with 40 warriors. Putting 40 of them in rapid fire range t1 is a brutal alpha strike. Will shred horde and elite armies front lines equally efficiently. Being open topped would be handy, removing the necessity of 2x 20 man squads and just having 1x 20 and 1x 10 in a GA,
That was me regarding the Warriors.
And I'd rather use the Deceiver to drop something more potent than Warriors and needs to be close by. Gauss Immortals, Lychguard, and certain HQ's. If I could just ferry the Warriors while shooting out the top of the Ark, they'd be fine. To use a Deceiver drop with Warriors though? Utter and complete waste of The Grand Illusion.
rvd1ofakind wrote: He has 5 immortals. You're right otherwise. He really wants a DDA so it's all good, he'll buy it and warriors seperatelly. Shipping costs too much to EU.
That was just an example I linked to. If you can find that box for sale in the EU I would recommend getting it (and yes, a DDA + Stalker with HGC is a pretty good combo).
After that he'll have almost enough to make a decent Battalion.
Would probably get 1-3 more boxes of Immortals (so 10-20 models total) and then a Cryptek or a second Overlord.
Then for a basic 1000 point list he could make-
Hmmm didn't think about anakyr or that 2000 was the new 1850 lol.
Anyone run 10 man praetorians yet? 5 man seems too small but with their movement 10 and hitting only slightly less as hard as lychguard I really want to place good faith that they can make a fun and effective unit at tying up stuff so your blobs can move up and position better. Transports for necrons this edition I feel are lacking (should have made more dda's, so I need some stuff to take some shots while my troops position up.
I haven't ran my lord with a blob yet but but in most cases I can see how retooling moral would be strong with blobs. If moral doesn't wipe em out then you know a few more will stand up every turn, so being able to reroll that could be strong.
skoffs wrote: Okay, finished the rest of the HQ, as well as updated the suggested changes.
Does this look good now?
Dear Sir, You rated Anrakyr with C while he is currently one of the best HQ options if you compare his 167 cost to warscythe Overlord for 136.
For a 31 point difference You get :
+ Pyrrhian Legions + 1A to himself and all friendly infantry within 3". Try 20 blob warriors with 2A charge sometimes after shooting rapid fire.
+ Mind in the Machine, which gives a 50% chance to shoot enemy wehicle weapon within 12". Fun with enemy Knights or dreadnoughts.
+ Tachyon arrow, a 120" assault S10 D6 shooting attack. Yes, one per game but can be handy on first turn with 2+ to hit (reroll 1 with Stalker combo)
~ My will be done - just as on Overlord
I call all of above a bargain for that point difference and rate him A, while I would rate Overlord with B (usefull only if you want cheap, without warscythe).
Immortals rated A+ against A for Warriors.
Immortals are easilly destroyed (10 models cap) compared to Warriors. Reanimation Protocols and firepower of Immortals doesn't count if they are wiped out.
Survivability is the key. Also Immmortals cannot enter Ghost Arks.
So how could You rate Immortals higher than Warriors ??
Spyder "not very usefull" ? Have You ever played against enemy with psykers? No option to dispell that one gamebreaking psychic power is painfull.
And there will be psykers boosting enemy units especialy at higher points games.
I haven't ran my lord with a blob yet but but in most cases I can see how retooling moral would be strong with blobs. If moral doesn't wipe em out then you know a few more will stand up every turn, so being able to reroll that could be strong.
That's my thinking. If I can reroll Morale to keep those last Warriors from running so RP could do it's job then that sounds worth at least a B- rating to me.
Long time necron player here (back when the fluff was good...). I have a lot of experience with many armies, in both competition and casual play (yes, you can enjoy both).
I think the ratings are useful - BUT - things are quite different in 8th - and while there are some exceptions (Trazen, why?) most of the books have very good internal balance.
One of the biggest positives I have seen so far (in following multiple armies conversations) is that there is no single "this is the list!".
(oh, and everyone is unhappy most of their flyers are now hitting much more poorly with heavy weapons....at least crons started at a good BS)
Some players like the Deceiver bomb, some like destroyer spam, some like the monolith - some even get use out of the poor CCB (the 12" buff range is a tremendous asset to a tactically minded player).
Other times combos will be dismissed "the buffs are wasted because your opponent won't bother to shoot at them...".
The key to this game, is not that you have to beat the other army, but you have to beat the other player.
A few examples;
* Your unit that the other player won't try to shoot at IS doing its job - it is intimidation - which messes with their head - thus they can make mistakes. If YOU are smart, you capitalize on it - that is the unit you take the relic with, or charge up the middle etc. Or you use it to distract from your other, less durable threats that are part of your plan (you have a plan right?)
* If you are looking for a monolith to "earn its points" - you are missing out on its most potent weapon - intimidation. Drop a monolith 12" from the enemy lines - and best case they freak out, worse case you disrupt their plan. An Obelisk is even better. it takes a lot of firepower to destroy, and completely distracts the other player's game.
* no unit exists in isolation - good players can use scarabs to screen the backfield, to screen the front field or just to take objectives that no one is paying attention to late game (this happens A LOT in 8th....). likewise - smite is our bane - do not underestimate the gloom prism much less the fact that a repair spider can keep an DDA or even a monlith lasting a very long time.
My suggestion to newer players is the same as it has been for years - Play the game. Nothing, absolutely nothing replaces actual game experience.
Yes, math hammer is useful, and (well made) battle reports are just gold. But so many things have changed in 8th, that the best advice is to play, and apply critical thinking during the process.
Dear Sir, You rated Anrakyr with C while he is currently one of the best HQ options if you compare his 167 cost to warscythe Overlord for 136.
For a 31 point difference You get :
+ Pyrrhian Legions + 1A to himself and all friendly infantry within 3". Try 20 blob warriors with 2A charge sometimes after shooting rapid fire.
+ Mind in the Machine, which gives a 50% chance to shoot enemy wehicle weapon within 12". Fun with enemy Knights or dreadnoughts.
+ Tachyon arrow, a 120" assault S10 D6 shooting attack. Yes, one per game but can be handy on first turn with 2+ to hit (reroll 1 with Stalker combo)
~ My will be done - just as on Overlord
I call all of above a bargain for that point difference and rate him A, while I would rate Overlord with B (usefull only if you want cheap, without warscythe).
Immortals rated A+ against A for Warriors.
Immortals are easilly destroyed (10 models cap) compared to Warriors. Reanimation Protocols and firepower of Immortals doesn't count if they are wiped out.
Survivability is the key. Also Immmortals cannot enter Ghost Arks.
So how could You rate Immortals higher than Warriors ??
Spyder "not very usefull" ? Have You ever played against enemy with psykers? No option to dispell that one gamebreaking psychic power is painfull.
And there will be psykers boosting enemy units especialy at higher points games.
I kinda agree with all other ratings, nice job.
Regular warscythe overlords are 112, not 136, so a 55 point gap.
Immortals lack the blob size of warriors but the weapon and armor save are a great value at only 5 more ppm, they're much better at 13"+ range, their smaller model count makes them easier to give cover bonus which doubles their survival rate, and if you just want to fill troop slots for command points a 5 man immortal squad is a viable little objective squatter while 10 man warrior squads are kind of trash, which is also part of why no one ever uses ghost arks as actual transports and only as flayer array / RP baby sitters for big blobs. I don't think the rating is meant to imply immortals are better than warriors, just that warriors require more points invested in both squad size and support options to be truly great.
Spyders are fine just kind of expensive for lascannon/melta bait. It's also serving 2 masters, it's 'monster' status and scarab hive make him want to be close to the front while his repair claw and gloom prism make you want to hide him in your back lines. I think either of the FW centipedes are better options for gloom prisms.
I feel like deathmarks are overrated at a B-, important characters will have body guards, and the current deep strike meta relies on deep striking MSU, so the deathmarks might get one disposable unit and miss 4 others. I'd say they are a solid C, situationally useful, but too easy to counter.
I also think triarch praetorians are underrated. They are a vanguard unit so generally too fast to receive buffs like MWBD anyway, so the lack of a dynasty keyword only affects tomb world deploy, which is kind of a shaky decision for them anyway. At 350 point, they pack as many wounds as a warrior blob, with a better toughness, better armor save, and way more offensive punch. They are in what I like to think of as a sweet spot for toughness and wounds, at 2 wounds and T5 most heavy weapons are wounding on 3s instead of 2s and wasting a lot of damage down range. Anti-infantry weapons have to deal with multiple wounds per model, T5, and a good armor save. The immunity to morale means you have to kill them to the man to stop them from getting back up. I've used them in several games, and the wrecked face in all of them, so I'd probably rate them as a B+, maybe A-, solid generalist unit capable of exceptional results depending on opponents comp.
The strength of the Deathmarks isn't in that they drop in and kill off Characters. They sometimes do, but it's not the norm.
No, the true strength of Deathmarks is to kill off other Deep Striking units. Command Squad of Scions drop in? Nope, kill those. Striking Scorpions pop up? Pick a couple of those bad boys off. Broodlord comes in to charge? Nah son, Snipers. Eversor Assassin? More like... well I can't come up with a pun but get shot.
Plenty of armies have units that will come in mid game. Killing even a couple models out of those units is worth 100 points, and forcing them to change their tactics in using them is nearly priceless.
col_impact wrote: I think the Tomb Stalker is being over valued at A.
The Tomb Sentinel is better in every way to the Tomb Stalker and will always be used instead of the Tomb Stalker.
People should get the clear message to buy the Tomb Sentinel instead of the Tomb Stalker.
Stalker is better against armies with less big things, or in a list where you already have multiple DDArks or Pylon(s) to deal with the big threats. More attacks, shooting that doesn't overkill and doesn't suffer the -1 to hit, cheaper. If you're using it to threaten infantry in the backlines (like Devs, HWTs, Tau, etc), the Stalker is cheaper and better. The Sentinel has the edge in monster/tank hunting, which we need slightly more of, but depending on how the meta goes and what the rest of your list already does, the Stalker is fine.
Maybe an A- or B+ at worst. Lots of armies would feel lucky to have this option in their index.
Grimgold wrote: I feel like deathmarks are overrated at a B-, important characters will have body guards, and the current deep strike meta relies on deep striking MSU, so the deathmarks might get one disposable unit and miss 4 others. I'd say they are a solid C, situationally useful, but too easy to counter.
I also think triarch praetorians are underrated. They are a vanguard unit so generally too fast to receive buffs like MWBD anyway, so the lack of a dynasty keyword only affects tomb world deploy, which is kind of a shaky decision for them anyway. At 350 point, they pack as many wounds as a warrior blob, with a better toughness, better armor save, and way more offensive punch. They are in what I like to think of as a sweet spot for toughness and wounds, at 2 wounds and T5 most heavy weapons are wounding on 3s instead of 2s and wasting a lot of damage down range. Anti-infantry weapons have to deal with multiple wounds per model, T5, and a good armor save. The immunity to morale means you have to kill them to the man to stop them from getting back up. I've used them in several games, and the wrecked face in all of them, so I'd probably rate them as a B+, maybe A-, solid generalist unit capable of exceptional results depending on opponents comp.
Of the 8 or so games I've played so far, I've played Praets in two games so far and they have been aces.
I played another game without them and found it to be a bit tougher to crack some of those mid-range units.
My problem in recommending them is that I have a bit of an irrational preference for the model which colors an objective evaluation.
Managed to get in a game against Orks. It was pretty one-sided (though, in fairness, he'd been expecting to play someone else with an ork army and so his army was more intended for a big Ork smackdown).
My list was:
- Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Resurrection Orb
- Necron Overlord w/ Warscythe
- 10 Immortals w/ Tesla
- 10 Immortals w/ Gauss
- 10 Immortals w/ Gauss
- 10 Immortals w/ Gauss
- 3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer
- 3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer
His list was:
- Warboss with Power Klaw
- Painboy
- Weirdboy
- Captain Badrukk
- Gorkanaunt
- 5 Lootaz
- 5 Lootaz
- 30 Boys, Nob w/ Power Klaw
- 30 Boys, Nob w/ Power Klaw
- 30 Boys, Nob w/ Power Klaw
We were both just trying out 8th, so we just played basic deployment and Kill Points.
I won't do a lengthy battle report - suffice to say that the Gorkanaut was dead on turn 2 (after being shot by Heavy Desroyers, Tesla Immortals and regular Destroyers), and my Immortals just shredded his infantry. He managed to take out 3 of my Immortal squads, but by that time his 3 Boyz squads were dead, Captain Badrukk was dead, his Weirdboy was dead (it had died in the Gorkanaut explosion), his Painboy was dead and his Lootas were wounded.
He did roll pretty badly, to be honest (his shooting rolls were abysmal even by Ork standards). Still, I have a few thoughts about Necrons after that game:
- Immortals really do deserve that A+ rating. S5 AP-2 guns are just devastating. And Tesla Immortals with MWBD are similarly brutal.
- I'm actually rethinking my position on the Warscythe. With so few attacks, I'm wondering if the Staff of Light might be a better buy after all (though I admit it wasn't much of a test - I only got to hit some boyz and the Warboss). Still, I now want to try out the Staff or Light when I can next afford it. Either way, I like having Necron characters that aren't garbage in combat anymore.
- I like the new RP mechanic.
- Destroyers seem rather nasty, though also more fragile than their statistics would otherwise suggest.
Well, the staff of light is more expensive for a reason - its a decent ranged weapon and melee weapon, as opposed to the warscythe, which can only be used in melee and quite frankly, isn't as scary as it could be. Giving everyone a staff of light probably isn't a bad idea, as you can keep you buff providers where they want to be and still allow them to attack.
Yeah, I love immortals. They were my favorite elite choice in the 3rd dex, and they are still pretty awesome. Not to mention they are troops nowadays, so I can field even more of them. I really want GW to hurry up and release the FAQ so I can play. I'm still waiting for clarification on RP and the voidblade entry, as well as any other rules issues that may come up.
A: All-stars, no list is made worse by their inclusion but some lists may forgo them for a unique strategy or personal preference.
B: Role Players, these are some of the best units at what they do and can operate with and without support.
C: Viable, these units are perfectly fine they just have some minor problems in comparison to higher grade units or require a lot more support to function on equal footing.
D: Flawed, these units are possibly even very good at their role but they are pretty poorly costed or there is another unit/s with an identical role who is much better at it.
F: Something's Awry, there's some fundamental flaw with their rules or cost that make you wonder what scenario could possibly make you take this unit.
My scale works a bit differently in that I'm often as concerned by how durable a unit is as i am its offensive power and I also think that a unit that's more likely to show up in many kinds of list are a higher rank than a niche unit that appears in 1, even if that niche unit becomes an 'A' with that specific support and composition. And i'm not really gonna bother with plus or minus gradients, these are more broad impressions. I'm also leaving out a lot of named characters or super heavies that i have no clear interest in/understanding of.
Spoiler:
Overlord, B - Despite missing any really relevant gear options this edition, MWBD is an easy to use force multiplier that works best with large redundant troop blobs that we want to be taking anyway, and his stat line compares well to similarly costed lords and commanders of other armies.
Lord, D - I'm pretty sure i will always take the +1 leadership aura for my warlord trait so the number of losses you need to take to make a morale test dangerous but still passable where a re-roll is preferable to just paying 2 CP to auto pass is pretty narrow. Still usable where you want to take the absolute lowest discount on an HQ you can.
Cryptek, B - If attrition is our win condition then it's difficult to imagine a better glue for an army, and the trinity of regular cryptek, szeras, and orikan are actually all equally viable for different reasons/builds. The odds on them getting their points back over a game are still fuzzy at best so they aren't an easy auto include, and 3" is not a forgiving aura size so these will often really hamper your army's agility, causing units to choose to run under their full rolled advance value to keep in range or conga lining models awkwardly as you navigate around terrain. You will find yourself splitting units off for objectives or cover or to bolster a flank more often than a lot of people suppose and paying for multiple crypteks to accommodate that gets very expensive very fast.
Destroyer Lord, C - There's nothing wrong with the destroyer lord but he's got a somewhat narrow focus. You only really want him with some kind of destroyer wing to buff and he is torn between his lack of long range shooting and being pretty vulnerable alone. This isn't the living missile that used to run around with wraiths murdering tanks, this is more of a really hardy support unit to one type of necron detachment.
CCB, F - Not many units in the index deserve an F, but if anyone does it is the entry that thought 'hey, what if we took an overlord and stripped him of his character status and invulnerable save in exchange for 3 wounds and a toughness? Now what if we charged an extra 40 points for that? Y'know, just in case they really need that extra 7" move to keep up with the tomb blades and triarch preatorians that they can't buff.'
Warriors, B - I won't pretend warrior blobs aren't one of our best units but they really only get there in the 15-20 range and with some form of support to their RP which is no small stipulation and often no small cost. Their 13"+ shooting is nothing amazing, the fact that you need to take at or near max blobs makes them difficult to gain cover saves or avoid LOS against longer range units, and most people understand that they need to dedicate themselves to wiping out units to deny RP rolls so they will rarely get to sit and have a long term fire fight with 1 or 2 other units where they will eventually grind their opponent down unless you are already winning on the rest of the board. Their strength is that they are too much to ignore but are like 5th or 6th on shooting priority, they will be shot at just by virtue of terrain and weapon ranges often making them the only thing to shoot. While the higher priority units alternate killing each other the warriors will slowly gain position and kills on the enemy infantry, refreshing their dead until there isn't enough left to wipe them out anymore.
Immortals, A - Take 5, take 10, give them buffs, let them operate alone, in cover, out of cover, transport them, make em march, screen them, drop the screen and add more bodies. They are incredibly versatile and pound for pound one of the better anti horde units in the game. One of the recurring complaints you'll see for other anti horde units i have will be 'still not as good as their cost in immortals' because nothing ever is.
Lychguard, C - These are pretty much better than assault terminators and they cost less. Sadly there is no cheap way to get them mobile enough to be true threats.
Deathmarks, D - I don't really think sniping characters is a vital component to a 8th edition army and needing to take a suicide point blank unit of deep striking snipers just seems kinda bad? They can strike into cover and become less suicidal but if they're outside rapid fire range of their target they just really suck. 20 points for a tactical marine that can get mortal wounds on 6s. Interrupting enemy deep strike shenanigans is cool but not every enemy is going to run shenanigans and most of those units need to be hit by more than 10 bolter rounds and a mortal wound to be crippled so investing like 200 points for a deterrent for 1 unit? It's not my jam at all.
Flayed Ones, D - They have the weak stat line of warriors but their entire gimmick is the deep strike charge where they will fail the charge more often than not and they lack any of the support to help their saves or RPs if they try. Unless you take named characters and go all in on a red tide list i think scarabs do a similar enough job for much cheaper and filling multiple other roles.
Preatorians, C - Of the 2-wound almost-there units along with lychguard and tomb blades, preatorians are the best and might actually be a B. They are meq/teq killers so they are more competing with destroyers than immortals, they are highly mobile in an army that is depressingly slow, and while they have RP they aren't pigeon holed into a battle of attrition. They execute any infantry unit near their own model count, running them down, peppering them in the shooting phase, then assaulting through the reduced overwatch volley to wipe them out or get them close enough that morale will finish the job. They suck on tanks and hordes but we have better tools for those.
Triarch Stalker, C - Targeting relay is a nice bonus but it isn't a reliable force multiplier. most units already hit on a 3+ so unlike a MWBD it's only really giving 2/3s of 1/6 of a units shooting as a bonus and despite that bonus applying to potentially your entire army you just aren't going to shoot any one thing with your whole army unless you're fighting a titan. Against MSU you'll barely get the bonus at all. If we take a step back from the targeting relay then what we have is just a solid walker, expensive but durable without enough firepower or close combat heft to pay for itself easily but enough of both to be a solid glue unit that both supports and does its own heavy lifting. Hopefully.
Ghost Ark, C - If it had a larger transport capacity or if it could transport anything but warriors and characters this would probably be an A, but as is it's basically the equivalent of 10 warriors at shooting that you only want to take if you have 40+ other warriors already. Still very solid but if it only really applies to one army type i've got to dock its rating to reflect its niche status.
Night Scythe, C - The model itself is more of a D but until we get a codex that gives us back our veil of shadows this and the deceiver are our only real options to get mobile.
Doom Scythe, F - The model itself is more of a D but you can do so much better in the index for high power shooting, let alone if you include FW options. Forced move heavy weapons are goofy.
Wraiths, D - These are still very durable but with the introduction of both multi damage weapons and mortal wounds they are significantly less durable than previous editions. That would still be fine but now they also lack any real punch in close combat and their upgrade options are overpriced. They can operate independently from the rest of your army and bully backline units but they really can't kill a tank or quickly slice up some devastators so they're sort of just a very expensive annoyance that keeps forcing something to make fall back moves.
Scarabs, B - Our cheapest objective squatter, our best screening unit, a solidly mobile light infantry eater, and even able to nibble a couple wounds off a titan in a pinch. Very good at filling in extra points to perform a variety of roles but they also fold like wet paper if anyone looks directly at them.
Tomb Blades, C - I fall on the side of immortals for the buff synergies and so my army as a whole can deny most of the value of high damage weapons but for only 8 points more than 2 immortals you get the same shooting but much more mobility. Their upgrade options aren't really worth it. I think these guys get much better the more LOS blocking terrain is on the table because they are better able to leverage their mobility to get good sight lines and they can dance around assault units that are using the terrain to approach. If updates to 8th see their points lowered or if the competitive scene decides more and more LOS blocking terrain makes for more strategic games then a year from now you could easily see them flipped to A and immortals at C.
Destroyers, C - High AP shooting is a different role from other anti infantry shooting so none of the B infantry are specifically eating the destroyer's lunch but they are very expensive and appreciate a lot of character support. Many of our anti tank B units like DDarks or tesseract arks can pull double duty as anti elite shooters though.
Heavy Destroyer, D - CONTROVERSY! This probably exemplifies the relativity of graded ratings and how my rating differ from the metacritic style C to A scale more than any other entry because heavy destroyers are still some of the most reliable high power shooting in the army if not all of 40k. Prior to the forge world reveal I had these tied with DDarks at B, but now there's like 4 solid anti tank options that perform pretty close to H destroyers at that role while also being able to switch to shooting infantry once the tanks are dead or who are much more durable. Probably better as a 1 of in destroyer units where you can make RP kick in more reliably instead of feeding 225 points to a single artillery salvo.
Spyders, D - They pay a few too many points to act like fat adorable tech priests in the back lines but they're too fragile to get in anything's face. A cheap body to put a gloom prism on compared to FW centipedes but a worse unit than either of those.
Monolith, D - The old girl still does a decent amount of shooting and a threatening back attack as it deep strikes and vomits a unit out its gate, but its lack of QS and the loss of its gate's ability to pull units out of combat have left it in the lurch compared to other heavy units.
A. Barge, D - Annihilation barges are actually pretty good anti horde shooting they just have an unfortunate stat line at t6 8w 4+ which is an ideal target for plasma fire, and the added strength of its big tesla guns doesn't really matter as the 9ish immortals you could be taking put more wounds on hordes. It would shine if there were more light tank style targets where the added strength would make a bigger difference while still having a weak armor save, but most things get good saves as they get tougher.
DDArk, B - Ark hulls are the toughest stat lines we can attach a QS to, and the ability for the cannon to scale up against hordes or just fly away from fights then turn around and give the offending units both flayer arrays and the weaker boom makes the doomsday ark very desirable as a back line anti vehicle power house, and it's not even that expensive at 203 points. Support it with repairs or a screen or targeting relay or don't. It's solid either way.
Tomb Stalker, C - The anti infantry flavor of centipede, it's a little lacking defensively but take 2 of these guys with a gauss pylon and deep strike them in all together next to the opponent's back line and their shredding guns and monster close combat ability will protect the pylon while the pylon gives them the much needed 5++ to protect them from some of the high damage fire they attract.
Acanthrites, D - I really like acanthrites conceptually, wraiths with melta guns who wouldn't want that? But their cutting beams coming in at only 7 strength makes them falter from pushing through really high damage numbers against anything tougher than a rhino and also wound terminators on a 3+ instead of the 2+ a strength 8 weapon would. For 15 more points you could get a heavy destroyer and kill bigger targets from farther away with re-rolling 1s. They do have 1 trick in their bag heavy Ds don't and that's void blades, as weird and overpriced as those are it still makes acanthrites mimic preatorians in their ability to assault to lethal effect after shooting. If you need to pop a transport then charge the unit that falls out with a single unit they are uniquely qualified to do so.
Tomb Sentinel, C - I don't really like that the exile cannon is heavy and only 12", it means you will pretty much always be at 4+ BS which keeps it from being a real replacement for other anti tank options. The stats across his body and his gun are just too damn high to write him off though and he can pop up anywhere you want him so if there's ever a character or artillery or transport or whatever that isn't fully bubble wrapped he can pop up and shatter them. As gloom prism carriers, needing to set them up normally just so you can be sure you have a chance to stop 'da jump' turn 1 because you don't get to make the denial if the model is off the board in reserves is a bit of a conflict of interests but few psychic powers are a threat from turn 1 like that and who wants to tunnel closer to orks anyway.
Gauss Pylon, A - In the old days when forge world was an unofficial product it was models like this disgusting murder machine that made people tell you to pack up because you weren't welcome in their hobby store any more. It kills almost anything in the game in one turn, it deep strikes anywhere while still firing at full BS, since LOS and facing is measured from anywhere on a vehicles hull now instead of its weapon you can trace sight all the way at the top of this very tall model to peek over los blocking terrain, and it even gives any nearby necron, regardless of vehicle or monster or dynasty, a 5++ save. It has 2 weaknesses, its anti infantry shooting is a little lacking in range and quantity for its cost and its damage is so ridiculously high that in the mirror match against another necron player you can't actually hurt anything with quantum shielding, including its main competitors for anti tank slots doomsday arks and tesseract arks. It even fills our slight weakness to aircraft as the -1 to hit is especially crippling to tesla weapons or units that get a penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. This more than any other option outclasses heavy destroyers at their own scoot and pop game, as it scoots across the entire board and pops harder. Defensively it isn't invincible but since it will probably remove its biggest threat the turn it comes down and benefits from its own 5++ aura it will be difficult for most lists to bring down before it pays for itself. Bonus, there's probably no better use for a command point re-roll in any shooting phase than getting its d6 hit count to 4+ reliably.
Tesseract Ark, B - At first glance you might think the t.ark has a versatile main weapon but unlike say choosing between krak and frag missiles or focused and dispersed fire prism shots, the different modes on the ark are mostly used to reflect how you used the ark that turn rather than what you're shooting at. Barring a few exceptions for very specific targets, the chem cannon flamer is mostly good for overwatch especially since combined with its charge range debuff units can't often charge from outside 8 inches, its grav cannon mode is for when it moves, and its krak missile mode is for when it stands still. It's role is basically as a doomsday ark that has a little less strength and ap but potentially double the shots. All modes are d6 hits. It has all the support you might want for the DDark built into its base with the 5++ a gauss pylon might grant a DD, the grav flux stopping charges the way a screening unit might for a DD, the anti infantry power of its tesla cannons is only a litte under a DDarks flayer arrays when it needs to swap from anti tank, and it comes with an extra toughness and better armor save. It even has what i have to assume is a typo in its favor, every other 10 wound model in the game has its stats degrade at 5 wounds while the ark doesn't degrade until 4 wounds. It's downsides in comparison are that it has 4 less wounds, costs 43 more points, despite its slightly better stat line it dies to stuff that slips by QS like rapid-fire battle cannons about as easily as an annihilation barge, if a DDark gets its 10+ model target bonus and its flayer arrays in range at the same time it pulls a little ahead in firepower, and by providing all its own support it doesn't pair very well with other units.
Actinium wrote: A: All-stars, no list is made worse by their inclusion but some lists may forgo them for a unique strategy or personal preference.
B: Role Players, these are some of the best units at what they do and can operate with and without support.
C: Viable, these units are perfectly fine they just have some minor problems in comparison to higher grade units or require a lot more support to function on equal footing.
D: Flawed, these units are possibly even very good at their role but they are pretty poorly costed or there is another unit/s with an identical role who is much better at it.
F: Something's Awry, there's some fundamental flaw with their rules or cost that make you wonder what scenario could possibly make you take this unit.
My scale works a bit differently in that I'm often as concerned by how durable a unit is as i am its offensive power and I also think that a unit that's more likely to show up in many kinds of list are a higher rank than a niche unit that appears in 1, even if that niche unit becomes an 'A' with that specific support and composition. And i'm not really gonna bother with plus or minus gradients, these are more broad impressions. I'm also leaving out a lot of named characters or super heavies that i have no clear interest in/understanding of.
Spoiler:
Overlord, B - Despite missing any really relevant gear options this edition, MWBD is an easy to use force multiplier that works best with large redundant troop blobs that we want to be taking anyway, and his stat line compares well to similarly costed lords and commanders of other armies.
Lord, D - I'm pretty sure i will always take the +1 leadership aura for my warlord trait so the number of losses you need to take to make a morale test dangerous but still passable where a re-roll is preferable to just paying 2 CP to auto pass is pretty narrow. Still usable where you want to take the absolute lowest discount on an HQ you can.
Cryptek, B - If attrition is our win condition then it's difficult to imagine a better glue for an army, and the trinity of regular cryptek, szeras, and orikan are actually all equally viable for different reasons/builds. The odds on them getting their points back over a game are still fuzzy at best so they aren't an easy auto include, and 3" is not a forgiving aura size so these will often really hamper your army's agility, causing units to choose to run under their full rolled advance value to keep in range or conga lining models awkwardly as you navigate around terrain. You will find yourself splitting units off for objectives or cover or to bolster a flank more often than a lot of people suppose and paying for multiple crypteks to accommodate that gets very expensive very fast.
Destroyer Lord, C - There's nothing wrong with the destroyer lord but he's got a somewhat narrow focus. You only really want him with some kind of destroyer wing to buff and he is torn between his lack of long range shooting and being pretty vulnerable alone. This isn't the living missile that used to run around with wraiths murdering tanks, this is more of a really hardy support unit to one type of necron detachment.
CCB, F - Not many units in the index deserve an F, but if anyone does it is the entry that thought 'hey, what if we took an overlord and stripped him of his character status and invulnerable save in exchange for 3 wounds and a toughness? Now what if we charged an extra 40 points for that? Y'know, just in case they really need that extra 7" move to keep up with the tomb blades and triarch preatorians that they can't buff.'
Warriors, B - I won't pretend warrior blobs aren't one of our best units but they really only get there in the 15-20 range and with some form of support to their RP which is no small stipulation and often no small cost. Their 13"+ shooting is nothing amazing, the fact that you need to take at or near max blobs makes them difficult to gain cover saves or avoid LOS against longer range units, and most people understand that they need to dedicate themselves to wiping out units to deny RP rolls so they will rarely get to sit and have a long term fire fight with 1 or 2 other units where they will eventually grind their opponent down unless you are already winning on the rest of the board. Their strength is that they are too much to ignore but are like 5th or 6th on shooting priority, they will be shot at just by virtue of terrain and weapon ranges often making them the only thing to shoot. While the higher priority units alternate killing each other the warriors will slowly gain position and kills on the enemy infantry, refreshing their dead until there isn't enough left to wipe them out anymore.
Immortals, A - Take 5, take 10, give them buffs, let them operate alone, in cover, out of cover, transport them, make em march, screen them, drop the screen and add more bodies. They are incredibly versatile and pound for pound one of the better anti horde units in the game. One of the recurring complaints you'll see for other anti horde units i have will be 'still not as good as their cost in immortals' because nothing ever is.
Lychguard, C - These are pretty much better than assault terminators and they cost less. Sadly there is no cheap way to get them mobile enough to be true threats.
Deathmarks, D - I don't really think sniping characters is a vital component to a 8th edition army and needing to take a suicide point blank unit of deep striking snipers just seems kinda bad? They can strike into cover and become less suicidal but if they're outside rapid fire range of their target they just really suck. 20 points for a tactical marine that can get mortal wounds on 6s. Interrupting enemy deep strike shenanigans is cool but not every enemy is going to run shenanigans and most of those units need to be hit by more than 10 bolter rounds and a mortal wound to be crippled so investing like 200 points for a deterrent for 1 unit? It's not my jam at all.
Flayed Ones, D - They have the weak stat line of warriors but their entire gimmick is the deep strike charge where they will fail the charge more often than not and they lack any of the support to help their saves or RPs if they try. Unless you take named characters and go all in on a red tide list i think scarabs do a similar enough job for much cheaper and filling multiple other roles.
Praetorians, C - Of the 2-wound almost-there units along with lychguard and tomb blades, preatorians are the best and might actually be a B. They are meq/teq killers so they are more competing with destroyers than immortals, they are highly mobile in an army that is depressingly slow, and while they have RP they aren't pigeon holed into a battle of attrition. They execute any infantry unit near their own model count, running them down, peppering them in the shooting phase, then assaulting through the reduced overwatch volley to wipe them out or get them close enough that morale will finish the job. They suck on tanks and hordes but we have better tools for those.
Triarch Stalker, C - Targeting relay is a nice bonus but it isn't a reliable force multiplier. most units already hit on a 3+ so unlike a MWBD it's only really giving 2/3s of 1/6 of a units shooting as a bonus and despite that bonus applying to potentially your entire army you just aren't going to shoot any one thing with your whole army unless you're fighting a titan. Against MSU you'll barely get the bonus at all. If we take a step back from the targeting relay then what we have is just a solid walker, expensive but durable without enough firepower or close combat heft to pay for itself easily but enough of both to be a solid glue unit that both supports and does its own heavy lifting. Hopefully.
Ghost Ark, C - If it had a larger transport capacity or if it could transport anything but warriors and characters this would probably be an A, but as is it's basically the equivalent of 10 warriors at shooting that you only want to take if you have 40+ other warriors already. Still very solid but if it only really applies to one army type i've got to dock its rating to reflect its niche status.
Night Scythe, C - The model itself is more of a D but until we get a codex that gives us back our veil of shadows this and the deceiver are our only real options to get mobile.
Doom Scythe, F - The model itself is more of a D but you can do so much better in the index for high power shooting, let alone if you include FW options. Forced move heavy weapons are goofy.
Wraiths, D - These are still very durable but with the introduction of both multi damage weapons and mortal wounds they are significantly less durable than previous editions. That would still be fine but now they also lack any real punch in close combat and their upgrade options are overpriced. They can operate independently from the rest of your army and bully backline units but they really can't kill a tank or quickly slice up some devastators so they're sort of just a very expensive annoyance that keeps forcing something to make fall back moves.
Scarabs, B - Our cheapest objective squatter, our best screening unit, a solidly mobile light infantry eater, and even able to nibble a couple wounds off a titan in a pinch. Very good at filling in extra points to perform a variety of roles but they also fold like wet paper if anyone looks directly at them.
Tomb Blades, C - I fall on the side of immortals for the buff synergies and so my army as a whole can deny most of the value of high damage weapons but for only 8 points more than 2 immortals you get the same shooting but much more mobility. Their upgrade options aren't really worth it. I think these guys get much better the more LOS blocking terrain is on the table because they are better able to leverage their mobility to get good sight lines and they can dance around assault units that are using the terrain to approach. If updates to 8th see their points lowered or if the competitive scene decides more and more LOS blocking terrain makes for more strategic games then a year from now you could easily see them flipped to A and immortals at C.
Destroyers, C - High AP shooting is a different role from other anti infantry shooting so none of the B infantry are specifically eating the destroyer's lunch but they are very expensive and appreciate a lot of character support. Many of our anti tank B units like DDarks or tesseract arks can pull double duty as anti elite shooters though.
Heavy Destroyer, D - CONTROVERSY! This probably exemplifies the relativity of graded ratings and how my rating differ from the metacritic style C to A scale more than any other entry because heavy destroyers are still some of the most reliable high power shooting in the army if not all of 40k. Prior to the forge world reveal I had these tied with DDarks at B, but now there's like 4 solid anti tank options that perform pretty close to H destroyers at that role while also being able to switch to shooting infantry once the tanks are dead or who are much more durable. Probably better as a 1 of in destroyer units where you can make RP kick in more reliably instead of feeding 225 points to a single artillery salvo.
Spyders, D - They pay a few too many points to act like fat adorable tech priests in the back lines but they're too fragile to get in anything's face. A cheap body to put a gloom prism on compared to FW centipedes but a worse unit than either of those.
Monolith, D - The old girl still does a decent amount of shooting and a threatening back attack as it deep strikes and vomits a unit out its gate, but its lack of QS and the loss of its gate's ability to pull units out of combat have left it in the lurch compared to other heavy units.
A. Barge, D - Annihilation barges are actually pretty good anti horde shooting they just have an unfortunate stat line at t6 8w 4+ which is an ideal target for plasma fire, and the added strength of its big tesla guns doesn't really matter as the 9ish immortals you could be taking put more wounds on hordes. It would shine if there were more light tank style targets where the added strength would make a bigger difference while still having a weak armor save, but most things get good saves as they get tougher.
DDArk, B - Ark hulls are the toughest stat lines we can attach a QS to, and the ability for the cannon to scale up against hordes or just fly away from fights then turn around and give the offending units both flayer arrays and the weaker boom makes the doomsday ark very desirable as a back line anti vehicle power house, and it's not even that expensive at 203 points. Support it with repairs or a screen or targeting relay or don't. It's solid either way.
Tomb Stalker, C - The anti infantry flavor of centipede, it's a little lacking defensively but take 2 of these guys with a gauss pylon and deep strike them in all together next to the opponent's back line and their shredding guns and monster close combat ability will protect the pylon while the pylon gives them the much needed 5++ to protect them from some of the high damage fire they attract.
Acanthrites, D - I really like acanthrites conceptually, wraiths with melta guns who wouldn't want that? But their cutting beams coming in at only 7 strength makes them falter from pushing through really high damage numbers against anything tougher than a rhino and also wound terminators on a 3+ instead of the 2+ a strength 8 weapon would. For 15 more points you could get a heavy destroyer and kill bigger targets from farther away with re-rolling 1s. They do have 1 trick in their bag heavy Ds don't and that's void blades, as weird and overpriced as those are it still makes acanthrites mimic preatorians in their ability to assault to lethal effect after shooting. If you need to pop a transport then charge the unit that falls out with a single unit they are uniquely qualified to do so.
Tomb Sentinel, C - I don't really like that the exile cannon is heavy and only 12", it means you will pretty much always be at 4+ BS which keeps it from being a real replacement for other anti tank options. The stats across his body and his gun are just too damn high to write him off though and he can pop up anywhere you want him so if there's ever a character or artillery or transport or whatever that isn't fully bubble wrapped he can pop up and shatter them. As gloom prism carriers, needing to set them up normally just so you can be sure you have a chance to stop 'da jump' turn 1 because you don't get to make the denial if the model is off the board in reserves is a bit of a conflict of interests but few psychic powers are a threat from turn 1 like that and who wants to tunnel closer to orks anyway.
Gauss Pylon, A - In the old days when forge world was an unofficial product it was models like this disgusting murder machine that made people tell you to pack up because you weren't welcome in their hobby store any more. It kills almost anything in the game in one turn, it deep strikes anywhere while still firing at full BS, since LOS and facing is measured from anywhere on a vehicles hull now instead of its weapon you can trace sight all the way at the top of this very tall model to peek over los blocking terrain, and it even gives any nearby necron, regardless of vehicle or monster or dynasty, a 5++ save. It has 2 weaknesses, its anti infantry shooting is a little lacking in range and quantity for its cost and its damage is so ridiculously high that in the mirror match against another necron player you can't actually hurt anything with quantum shielding, including its main competitors for anti tank slots doomsday arks and tesseract arks. It even fills our slight weakness to aircraft as the -1 to hit is especially crippling to tesla weapons or units that get a penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. This more than any other option outclasses heavy destroyers at their own scoot and pop game, as it scoots across the entire board and pops harder. Defensively it isn't invincible but since it will probably remove its biggest threat the turn it comes down and benefits from its own 5++ aura it will be difficult for most lists to bring down before it pays for itself. Bonus, there's probably no better use for a command point re-roll in any shooting phase than getting its d6 hit count to 4+ reliably.
Tesseract Ark, B - At first glance you might think the t.ark has a versatile main weapon but unlike say choosing between krak and frag missiles or focused and dispersed fire prism shots, the different modes on the ark are mostly used to reflect how you used the ark that turn rather than what you're shooting at. Barring a few exceptions for very specific targets, the chem cannon flamer is mostly good for overwatch especially since combined with its charge range debuff units can't often charge from outside 8 inches, its grav cannon mode is for when it moves, and its krak missile mode is for when it stands still. It's role is basically as a doomsday ark that has a little less strength and ap but potentially double the shots. All modes are d6 hits. It has all the support you might want for the DDark built into its base with the 5++ a gauss pylon might grant a DD, the grav flux stopping charges the way a screening unit might for a DD, the anti infantry power of its tesla cannons is only a litte under a DDarks flayer arrays when it needs to swap from anti tank, and it comes with an extra toughness and better armor save. It even has what i have to assume is a typo in its favor, every other 10 wound model in the game has its stats degrade at 5 wounds while the ark doesn't degrade until 4 wounds. It's downsides in comparison are that it has 4 less wounds, costs 43 more points, despite its slightly better stat line it dies to stuff that slips by QS like rapid-fire battle cannons about as easily as an annihilation barge, if a DDark gets its 10+ model target bonus and its flayer arrays in range at the same time it pulls a little ahead in firepower, and by providing all its own support it doesn't pair very well with other units.
I think B pretty much defines praetorians, with S5 and a -3 ap means they will never be star players against vehicles but they can at least hold their own as most vehicles will be reduced to t shirt saves or worse for the wounds that get thru. Plus they can assault flyers, that makes them useful for area denial no flyer will want to stop within 18" of them for fear of an assault. I see lots of things I wish were different but not much else I disagree with.
We cant use ghost ark repair after resurection orb, but can we use resurection orb after ghost ark? In most case we dont want but i still want konw if i could.
Kuguar6 wrote: We cant use ghost ark repair after resurection orb, but can we use resurection orb after ghost ark? In most case we dont want but i still want konw if i could.
Res orb happens at the start of the move phase, ghost ark happens at the end. So no.
Eyjio wrote: The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.
I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.
Yea I've found the 5++ isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially when you add cover into the mix. I feel szerath is one of the better crypteks, but I still rate toholk as the best of the bunch. All std abilities, buffs vehicles, allows seize rerolls (1st turn has helped me so much), and his weapon is better than average, with scary overwatch damage. Not overly expensive either. Orikan is best ran with lych, he's the best CC cryptek.
I'm not sold on H.Destroyers. Our vehicles (FW included) are comparable in damage and speed, but 10x more durable. I've found my vehicles have saved me from a tabling so I could win on points, something Destroyers can't promise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone complaining about warriors being bad because GA aren't open topped obviously haven't ran a D-bomb with 40 warriors. Putting 40 of them in rapid fire range t1 is a brutal alpha strike. Will shred horde and elite armies front lines equally efficiently. Being open topped would be handy, removing the necessity of 2x 20 man squads and just having 1x 20 and 1x 10 in a GA,
That was me regarding the Warriors.
And I'd rather use the Deceiver to drop something more potent than Warriors and needs to be close by. Gauss Immortals, Lychguard, and certain HQ's. If I could just ferry the Warriors while shooting out the top of the Ark, they'd be fine. To use a Deceiver drop with Warriors though? Utter and complete waste of The Grand Illusion.
I agree with GA should be open topped, warriors need mobility.
But...
Can't charge the turn you GI, so your squad of 10 lychguard are now front and centre of their army and have to survive a whole turn of shooting. Your practically handing them first blood. And slay the warlord if your dropping a HQ up there too....
10 scytheguard and a HQ illusioning up does 0 damage and gives up first blood, and at best has to wait a whole turn to do any damage at all. 40 warriors puts out 80 gauss shots t1, pretty much assuring first blood. And if you deploy correctly has a 3+ cover save to survive retaliation, plus has 40 wounds as opposed to less than 30. The warriors are in two squads meaning fire can't be concentrated and RP is more likely in at least one squad.
And they're in rapid fire range t1, and 40 warriors are surprisingly hard to displace if in cover, and put a big threat in their view. Otherwise your walking/monolithing them up, which is delaying the warriors damage exponentially.
Additionally, 40 warriors is only 13 points more expensive than 10 scytheguard and Anrakyr. Anyone want to mathhammer the damage output of 2 rounds of rapid fire shooting of 40 warriors vs 1 round of close combat of 10 scytheguard and anrakyr?
Too bad there aren't any Canoptek HQs so that there could be a full canoptek list. Even if there was it probably wouldn't be competitive, but a full canoptek list would be fun. Only 351 points for 27 scarabs, you could include a lot in there. You could have a silver tide of scarabs.
Commissar Arkham wrote: Too bad there aren't any Canoptek HQs so that there could be a full canoptek list. Even if there was it probably wouldn't be competitive, but a full canoptek list would be fun. Only 351 points for 27 scarabs, you could include a lot in there. You could have a silver tide of scarabs.
Run Szeras - can call him "Canoptek Lord" in your own custom dynasty.
You can take 6 fast attack units per outrider detachment, and you can take up to 5 scarab bases before they can be effected by morale losses so to really maximize scarab bases you'd get 30 and a lord per detachment at 466 pts. If you take 2 of those but remove a single scarab base you can take a gloom spyder for exactly 1000, then double it for 118 scarab bases, 4 sword lords, and 2 gloom spyders at 2000 pts. The spyders will die instantly without ever making a scarab hive roll but they will look cool and be very thematic.
Is there a certain unit you would stick to a Praed squad for effectiveness? Prefereably a unit, which doesn't slow them down too much. Could They deliver a Nightbringer f.e.?
Is there a certain unit you would stick to a Praed squad for effectiveness? Prefereably a unit, which doesn't slow them down too much. Could They deliver a Nightbringer f.e.?
And do you run them rather as 5 or 10 men squad?
I guess it depends on what role they will have in you army.
I would either have a maximum or minimum sized unit.
10 Praetorians with Rods 350 pts This is an expensive unit that you can't afford to loose or be crippled on turn 1.
They are quite fragile but benefit more from RP since it's a larger unit.
Sadly it's difficult to boost their RP or other stats.
To make them work:
- Position them so that they only can receive a minimum amount of shooting from heavy weapons, preferable in cover or out of sight.
- Have something more in the army that the opponent sees as a huge threat.
- Support them with something equally fast such as Scarabs, Wraiths etc.
- Perhaps also have a Destroyer Lord or C'tan to give them more punch.
For 350 points you could get:
- 6 Wraiths and 9 Scarabs
- 7 Lychguard with Scythes and Orikan
- 7 Tomb Blades
5 Praetorians with Rods 175 pts Remove objective holders such as scouts.
Support your other CC units with combo charges.
Might also be used as bodyguard/combo chargers for a C'tan or Destroyer Lord.
If your desperate they can be used as a tarpit/screening unit.
To make them work
- Keep them out of sight or in cover.
- Only engage units that they can easily defeat if their purpose is to clear objective holders.
For 175 point you could get:
- 9 Deathmarks
- 8 Flayed ones
- 3 Wraiths and 3 Scarabs
- 6 Lychguard with Scythes
Hey guys. I am just wondering if we roll RP for models that failed moral tests? RP works for models that have been slain or destroyed but Morale stats thats failed models run away and get removed from the game meaning those models never got slain or destroyed. So, necrons with RP that fail morale should not get their RP?
Sorry if this has already been asked and answered.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, the staff of light is more expensive for a reason - its a decent ranged weapon and melee weapon, as opposed to the warscythe, which can only be used in melee and quite frankly, isn't as scary as it could be.
The Warscythe is really depressing this edition. I think it might be the measly 2 damage, which just doesn't seem like enough for what is supposed to be the most feared weapon in the Necron arsenal. Couldn't they have at least upped its damage against vehicles to replace the old 2d6+S for penetration?
All that said, it's not like the Staff of Light wows me either - especially given its excessive cost. In shooting it's basically just a few more Gauss Blaster shots - which I already have in abundance. In melee it's S5 -2AP Damage 1. Yawn.
Giving everyone a staff of light probably isn't a bad idea, as you can keep you buff providers where they want to be and still allow them to attack.
That's true for Crypteks and Lords, though if I do that with Overlords and D. Lords, I can't help but feel that I'm squandering their stats somewhat.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, I love immortals. They were my favorite elite choice in the 3rd dex, and they are still pretty awesome. Not to mention they are troops nowadays, so I can field even more of them.I really want GW to hurry up and release the FAQ so I can play. I'm still waiting for clarification on RP and the voidblade entry, as well as any other rules issues that may come up.
I woulnd't hold out any hope on the Voidblade being changed (either in price or stats). If RPs gets changed to 'models come back with only 1 wound', I'll probably drop Necrons in this edition.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: 10 Praetorians with Rods 350 pts [...]
For 350 points you could get:
- 6 Wraiths and 9 Scarabs
- 7 Lychguard with Scythes and Orikan
- 7 Tomb Blades
WHOA, hold the phone,
If you can take 7 Tomb Blades for the price of a full Praetorian squad (24 Tesla shots on a highly mobile fairly resilient body), that's the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
Why wouldn't the void blade be changed? Its clearly an error; it has the exact same stats as a hyperphase sword and it goes on the same model at different points costs. I mean, praets are basically paying more for the same sort of weapon that lychguard have.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why wouldn't the void blade be changed? Its clearly an error; it has the exact same stats as a hyperphase sword and it goes on the same model at different points costs.
Because they go on different models - Lychguard and Praetorians.
What's more, even if they are errated to the same cost on an Overlord, who cares?
It needs a different ability. Previously it had the same ability as Scarabs. If they gave it the "wound anything on a 5+" ability, it might be worth the cost (a monster/vehicle hunting weapon).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why wouldn't the void blade be changed? Its clearly an error; it has the exact same stats as a hyperphase sword and it goes on the same model at different points costs.
Because they go on different models - Lychguard and Praetorians.
What's more, even if they are errated to the same cost on an Overlord, who cares?
The "because they go on different models" is very common across the indexes.
Some items represent a different value, depending upon the platform.
Mu guess as to why it has the same stats is that as part of the simplification of 8th, they just normalized a lot of weapons - so you don't have to care as much as to what you modeled on a guy.
I would not mind a bit more diversity - but we don't need endless variations which don't really do much - previous versions had WAY too much of that (remember all the random cryptek junk - most of it useless).
skoffs wrote: It needs a different ability. Previously it had the same ability as Scarabs. If they gave it the "wound anything on a 5+" ability, it might be worth the cost (a monster/vehicle hunting weapon).
The "because they go on different models" is very common across the indexes.
Some items represent a different value, depending upon the platform.
Sure. But in this case it seems completely irrelevant. You want a S: User AP-3 D1 weapon on your Overlord? Take a Hyperphase Sword.Even if a Voidblade becomes 3pts, it will literally be variety in name only.
Mu guess as to why it has the same stats is that as part of the simplification of 8th, they just normalized a lot of weapons - so you don't have to care as much as to what you modeled on a guy.
Possibly. Kinda annoying then that they kept this but removed the Gauntlets of Fire - which actually were a different weapon. They were also the only weapon in 5th which had both a ranged profile and an effect in melee. They could have easily translated them into 8th (and not just for the sodding Stormlord), and even made them a good and viable weapon.
davethepak wrote: I would not mind a bit more diversity - but we don't need endless variations which don't really do much - previous versions had WAY too much of that (remember all the random cryptek junk - most of it useless).
Perhaps. But at the same time Crypteks also had some really nice wargear that was subsequently lost. Same with Overlords.
Hell, Necron Lords in 3rd used to have quite a nice selection of Wargear. Sure, there were some dud pieces but there were also a lot of really good ones. And frankly, I'd much rather have a good selection of wargear with some dud items, than have a pitiful 1 or 2 pieces of wargear.
skoffs wrote: It needs a different ability. Previously it had the same ability as Scarabs. If they gave it the "wound anything on a 5+" ability, it might be worth the cost (a monster/vehicle hunting weapon).
I thought Voidblade just used to have Rending?
It used to have entropic strike in 5th. Which was a hilarious ability, but I understand why they dropped it.
Well, I played a game against DA (mostly Bikers and one DW squad) with my Necrons last Saturday.
The Wraiths are still very resilient but not really choppy. I had tesla almost everywhere (Flyers, Barges, and Immortals) but against Marines gauss-weapons could be better.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I played a game against DA (mostly Bikers and one DW squad) with my Necrons last Saturday.
The Wraiths are still very resilient but not really choppy. I had tesla almost everywhere (Flyers, Barges, and Immortals) but against Marines gauss-weapons could be better.
Don't suppose you have a link to your battle report, do you?
wuestenfux wrote: The Wraiths are still very resilient but not really choppy.
Do you think there's any value in running a Warscythe Destroyer Lord with them like in the good old days? The Wraiths can protect him from shooting and he can add some extra punch in combat.
I guess it depends on what role they will have in you army.
I would either have a maximum or minimum sized unit.
10 Praetorians with Rods 350 pts This is an expensive unit that you can't afford to loose or be crippled on turn 1.
They are quite fragile but benefit more from RP since it's a larger unit.
Sadly it's difficult to boost their RP or other stats.
......
Frankly I am looking for an cc option to supplement my DDArk / Tesla Immortal / Warrior Army. To open another trouble spot, with some sort of mobility at it's best.
An since the Canoptek Phantoms got rated down, I was thinking if a 5 Immortal + C'tan NB squad could fill this role or are there provenly better options?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, the staff of light is more expensive for a reason - its a decent ranged weapon and melee weapon, as opposed to the warscythe, which can only be used in melee and quite frankly, isn't as scary as it could be.
The Warscythe is really depressing this edition. I think it might be the measly 2 damage, which just doesn't seem like enough for what is supposed to be the most feared weapon in the Necron arsenal. Couldn't they have at least upped its damage against vehicles to replace the old 2d6+S for penetration?
All that said, it's not like the Staff of Light wows me either - especially given its excessive cost. In shooting it's basically just a few more Gauss Blaster shots - which I already have in abundance. In melee it's S5 -2AP Damage 1. Yawn.
Giving everyone a staff of light probably isn't a bad idea, as you can keep you buff providers where they want to be and still allow them to attack.
That's true for Crypteks and Lords, though if I do that with Overlords and D. Lords, I can't help but feel that I'm squandering their stats somewhat.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, I love immortals. They were my favorite elite choice in the 3rd dex, and they are still pretty awesome. Not to mention they are troops nowadays, so I can field even more of them.I really want GW to hurry up and release the FAQ so I can play. I'm still waiting for clarification on RP and the voidblade entry, as well as any other rules issues that may come up.
I woulnd't hold out any hope on the Voidblade being changed (either in price or stats). If RPs gets changed to 'models come back with only 1 wound', I'll probably drop Necrons in this edition.
What you guys really need to do is compare the Warscythe to its Imperial Cousin the Power Fist, as they're both the giant weapons for melee.
So you overall have S8 vs S7, D3 vs 2, and -1 to hit vs No Penalty at all.
The scythe is more consistent, which is pretty awesome when you think about it.
Also the fact that the old Warscythe got a bonus against Vehicles and nothing else is just silly. I could kill a Chimera in one swing but not a Carnifex? How does that make any sense?
Yeah but no one would take a unit of just 3+ dudes with Powerfists and nothing else. And if it was an HQ with a choice between a Powerfist and a gun, I think most would take the gun.
Captains have an attack over Overlords as well, and can take a Powerfist and a gun. The warscythe is consistent, sure, but it doesn't really make up for the stuff it loses imo. The Staff of Light is a specialist gun and a Power Sword, which isn't even bad. The price difference is only 7 points, which makes it a no brainer, unless you're trying to save points, in which case just take the Hyperphase Sword which is still a fine melee weapon and way cheaper than the Warscythe.
I guess it depends on what role they will have in you army.
I would either have a maximum or minimum sized unit.
10 Praetorians with Rods 350 pts This is an expensive unit that you can't afford to loose or be crippled on turn 1.
They are quite fragile but benefit more from RP since it's a larger unit.
Sadly it's difficult to boost their RP or other stats.
To make them work:
- Position them so that they only can receive a minimum amount of shooting from heavy weapons, preferable in cover or out of sight.
- Have something more in the army that the opponent sees as a huge threat.
- Support them with something equally fast such as Scarabs, Wraiths etc.
- Perhaps also have a Destroyer Lord or C'tan to give them more punch.
For 350 points you could get:
- 6 Wraiths and 9 Scarabs
- 7 Lychguard with Scythes and Orikan
- 7 Tomb Blades
5 Praetorians with Rods 175 pts Remove objective holders such as scouts.
Support your other CC units with combo charges.
Might also be used as bodyguard/combo chargers for a C'tan or Destroyer Lord.
If your desperate they can be used as a tarpit/screening unit.
To make them work
- Keep them out of sight or in cover.
- Only engage units that they can easily defeat if their purpose is to clear objective holders.
For 175 point you could get:
- 9 Deathmarks
- 8 Flayed ones
- 3 Wraiths and 3 Scarabs
- 6 Lychguard with Scythes
I think we might differ on the fragile thing, 10 man prats have 20 wounds t5 and and a 3+ save, which is to say take the amount of firepower required to wipe out a warrior blob, and increase that by almost half, and that's what it takes to wipe out prats. Even if we count the fact they will attract lots of heavy weapons, it's around 32 lascannon shots to get them off of the table assuming space marine accuracy, because las cannons wound on 3+, prats get a 6+ save, and 1 in 6 shots won't do enough damage to kill one outright. At S5 -3 ap 10 shots and 20 CC attacks they have to be dealt with, you're opponent can't let them run around his backline hitting whatever they choose to. as for price comparisons:
6 wraiths and 9 scarabs, it's kind of an odd comparison because scarabs are in a completely different role, and arguably wraiths as well, and while tougher they hit like wet noodles. They also don't get RP so they will end up being easier to kill over a course of a few turns.
7 lychguard and orikan, a better comparison, but one that ends clearly in the prats favor, since orikan and the lychguard are exclusively counter chargers and objective holders. At a 5" movement and no shooting they will have a tough time ever getting close enough to get work done.
7 tomb blades, kind of an awkward number of tomb blades, it might have been better to say 6 kitted out tomb blades, with shield vanes and nebuloscopes. Which would make them as tough, much faster, and depending on loadout (gauss or tesla) better at taking on certain target profiles. The problem is tesla has no AP, and gauss requires them to be danger close for maximum effect. In both case they aren't as universally good as 10 prats, who work well against heavy infantry and hordes.
Requizen wrote: Yeah but no one would take a unit of just 3+ dudes with Powerfists and nothing else. And if it was an HQ with a choice between a Powerfist and a gun, I think most would take the gun.
Captains have an attack over Overlords as well, and can take a Powerfist and a gun. The warscythe is consistent, sure, but it doesn't really make up for the stuff it loses imo. The Staff of Light is a specialist gun and a Power Sword, which isn't even bad. The price difference is only 7 points, which makes it a no brainer, unless you're trying to save points, in which case just take the Hyperphase Sword which is still a fine melee weapon and way cheaper than the Warscythe.
What gun is the Captain taking though? No pistol is going to make any difference in melee vs the Overlord or Destroyer Lord. And the extra attack matters little because the Captain isn't hitting much more in melee (literally a difference of 0.1 hits).
I really hope at some point the Monolith gets back its ability to pull units that are on the table and spit them back out. Seeing as a few armies have the ability to deep strike post deploying (the Tau have that locator and Marines have the teleport homer).
BrotherGecko wrote: I really hope at some point the Monolith gets back its ability to pull units that are on the table and spit them back out. Seeing as a few armies have the ability to deep strike post deploying (the Tau have that locator and Marines have the teleport homer).
Lots of things will come back/change when we get a codex, I think the thing we need the most is wargear but that might be a minority opinion. I kind of hope instead of half fast summoning we have currently we get actual for really real summoning, but only for units with the infantry keyword. This could allow us to summon warriors, immortals, destroyers, lychguard, prats, and flayed ones as needed, which would give us back a lot of the flexibility we lost this edition.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What you guys really need to do is compare the Warscythe to its Imperial Cousin the Power Fist, as they're both the giant weapons for melee.
So you overall have S8 vs S7, D3 vs 2, and -1 to hit vs No Penalty at all.
The scythe is more consistent, which is pretty awesome when you think about it.
Consistency would be great if it was actually good. As it is it's consistently mediocre - which really isn't what you want for what is supposed to be the strongest weapon in the Necron arsenal.
What's more, as has already been said, other HQs can get both a gun and a power fist - whilst Necron HQs that take Warscythes can't take anything else.
Also, wouldn't a more honest comparison be Warscythe vs Thunderhammer? The hammer is also consistent - doing a straight 3 damage.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also the fact that the old Warscythe got a bonus against Vehicles and nothing else is just silly. I could kill a Chimera in one swing but not a Carnifex? How does that make any sense?
I agree. But why would you prefer them to have no bonus against anything?
What gun is the Captain taking though? No pistol is going to make any difference in melee vs the Overlord or Destroyer Lord.
Who said anything about vs the Overlord? Having a Combi-plasma lets the captain reach out across the table (as opposed to melee or nothing like a warscythe overlord).
All the hype revolving the DDA, I've been thinking..
Why not have one as your warlord?
With 2 other DDA's and 3 scarab units screening + 2 Spyders repairing the veichles, the survivability seems solid.
Not risking the overlords I'm using to be focused down, having the DDA as a warlord makes the enemy want to kill the DDA even harder. But with Spyders and Living Metal, and some proper screening/placing, it shouldn't be as free a warlord kill as having one of the overlords being the warlord. And the warlord traits aren't that exciting for a shooty army.
Spoiler:
Spearhead:
Overlord, SoL
10x Immortals, Tesla
Anni Barge, Tesla
Anni Barge, Tesla
DDA DDA - Warlord
DDA
Outrider:
Overlord, SoL
10x Immortals, Tesla
Triarch Stalker, HGC 3x Scarabs
3x Scarabs
3x Scarabs
Spyder, Fab Claws, Gloom Prism, Particle Beamer
Spyder, Fab Claws, Gloom Prism, Particle Beamer
Requizen wrote: Yeah but no one would take a unit of just 3+ dudes with Powerfists and nothing else. And if it was an HQ with a choice between a Powerfist and a gun, I think most would take the gun.
Captains have an attack over Overlords as well, and can take a Powerfist and a gun. The warscythe is consistent, sure, but it doesn't really make up for the stuff it loses imo. The Staff of Light is a specialist gun and a Power Sword, which isn't even bad. The price difference is only 7 points, which makes it a no brainer, unless you're trying to save points, in which case just take the Hyperphase Sword which is still a fine melee weapon and way cheaper than the Warscythe.
What gun is the Captain taking though? No pistol is going to make any difference in melee vs the Overlord or Destroyer Lord. And the extra attack matters little because the Captain isn't hitting much more in melee (literally a difference of 0.1 hits).
Not talking about 1v1, but about how it affects the game. Both can take a pretty good melee weapon (but not have enough attacks to really swing the tides of battle in a huge way), but the Captain can do it and also take a Combi weapon that makes him a threat at a range. I doubt anyone would consider a Captain with just a Powerfist and no gun.
Hiddius wrote:All the hype revolving the DDA, I've been thinking..
Why not have one as your warlord?
With 2 other DDA's and 3 scarab units screening + 2 Spyders repairing the veichles, the survivability seems solid.
Not risking the overlords I'm using to be focused down, having the DDA as a warlord makes the enemy want to kill the DDA even harder. But with Spyders and Living Metal, and some proper screening/placing, it shouldn't be as free a warlord kill as having one of the overlords being the warlord. And the warlord traits aren't that exciting for a shooty army.
Thoughts?
But why though? You have to bring at least 1 HQ anyway, so given how hard DDArks are to kill, just take a cheap Lord and stick him in the middle of them. The opponent has to chew through 3 DDArks to get to him unless they have mass Snipers. Essentially the same thing but even safer.
But why though? You have to bring at least 1 HQ anyway, so given how hard DDArks are to kill, just take a cheap Lord and stick him in the middle of them. The opponent has to chew through 3 DDArks to get to him unless they have mass Snipers. Essentially the same thing but even safer.
I like making use of my points. Having a lord just standing there doing pretty much nothing feels quite bad. I'm not dismissing the point you made, just that I see alot of gains to be made by having a big target on the DDA's head.
Here's the list I'm thinking of trying this weekend, any thoughts?
- 2x Warrior blobs with Orikan (should I just downgrade to Cryptek?) and Ghost Ark support
- 1x Immortal unit with Overlord for MWBD - 2x DDA for ranged pain
- 1x Deathmark unit for shenanigans and sniping psykers or deep striking units
- 1x Stalker at 36" for the buff and some extra fire
- 2x 5 scarab units for shielding either the DDAs or the firing line, I think more of these would be better but not sure what to sacrifice
Im just after fight vs Thousand sons for 1500 pts. I win with table For a moment i will write a report. Opponent do some mistake and i roll to seize the initiative.
I use immortal, stalker HGC, DDA, Anrakyr, Szeras and Nightbringer.
All have his place in army i done his job well.
Before i play with warrior and canoptek scarabs/wraiths. Immortal was better then warriors. Canoptek miss buff and arent good for 5++ spam army.
Anrakyr are man of the match. I use him for counter atack. With heroic intervention with all my character i can counter 5 Scarabs Terminator or Daemon Prince with no cc regular unit in my army.
Plan was simple. Stalker with DDA shoot above silver tide. Characters are close to front. All Immo close and fire from 24". Disadvantages are slow tide but big fire power give it back.
Grimgold wrote:
I think we might differ on the fragile thing, 10 man prats have 20 wounds t5 and and a 3+ save, which is to say take the amount of firepower required to wipe out a warrior blob, and increase that by almost half, and that's what it takes to wipe out prats. Even if we count the fact they will attract lots of heavy weapons, it's around 32 lascannon shots to get them off of the table assuming space marine accuracy, because las cannons wound on 3+, prats get a 6+ save, and 1 in 6 shots won't do enough damage to kill one outright.
Yes, you are correct. They are not extremely fragile, but remember that there are also many D2 and D1d3 weapons such as plasma guns and auto cannons.
At S5 -3 ap 10 shots and 20 CC attacks they have to be dealt with, you're opponent can't let them run around his backline hitting whatever they choose to. as for price comparisons:
6 wraiths and 9 scarabs, it's kind of an odd comparison because scarabs are in a completely different role, and arguably wraiths as well, and while tougher they hit like wet noodles. They also don't get RP so they will end up being easier to kill over a course of a few turns.
It was only an example of other fast units.
By the way 9 Scarabs puts out 36 attacks and costs 117 points. You get 27 Scarabs for 351 points and they have a combined 108 attacks and 81 wounds. If your opponents uses heavy weapons against them they are welcome.
As for Wraiths a better comparison would probably be 7 Wraiths with beamers. They have actually a decent damage output if allowed to shoot and charge. They are also more resilent and faster than Praetorians.
7 lychguard and orikan, a better comparison, but one that ends clearly in the prats favor, since orikan and the lychguard are exclusively counter chargers and objective holders. At a 5" movement and no shooting they will have a tough time ever getting close enough to get work done.
I agree.
7 tomb blades, kind of an awkward number of tomb blades, it might have been better to say 6 kitted out tomb blades, with shield vanes and nebuloscopes. Which would make them as tough, much faster, and depending on loadout (gauss or tesla) better at taking on certain target profiles. The problem is tesla has no AP, and gauss requires them to be danger close for maximum effect. In both case they aren't as universally good as 10 prats, who work well against heavy infantry and hordes.
7 kitted out Tomb Blades are 351 points.
I would probably equip them with Teslas.
Tomb Blades are not good in CC, but are faster with better range so that you can position them for good shots.
Kuguar6 wrote: Im just after fight vs Thousand sons for 1500 pts. I win with table For a moment i will write a report. Opponent do some mistake and i roll to seize the initiative.
I use immortal, stalker HGC, DDA, Anrakyr, Szeras and Nightbringer.
All have his place in army i done his job well.
Before i play with warrior and canoptek scarabs/wraiths. Immortal was better then warriors. Canoptek miss buff and arent good for 5++ spam army.
Anrakyr are man of the match. I use him for counter atack. With heroic intervention with all my character i can counter 5 Scarabs Terminator or Daemon Prince with no cc regular unit in my army.
Plan was simple. Stalker with DDA shoot above silver tide. Characters are close to front. All Immo close and fire from 24". Disadvantages are slow tide but big fire power give it back.
Awesome to hear! What kind of weapons did you use on the Immortals, and what size did you run them? Small units or big 10 man units?
Did you miss the 5++ from a regular Cryptek compared to Szeras or did you not really notice it?
Anrakyr cost 178 pts? 167 himself and 11 warscyte? Battle Scribe count him for 167 but it is misstake in my opinion.
So 66 more then Overlord not only 55.
But still worth in my oppinion for silver tide army.
Kuguar6 wrote: Im just after fight vs Thousand sons for 1500 pts. I win with table For a moment i will write a report. Opponent do some mistake and i roll to seize the initiative.
I use immortal, stalker HGC, DDA, Anrakyr, Szeras and Nightbringer.
All have his place in army i done his job well.
Before i play with warrior and canoptek scarabs/wraiths. Immortal was better then warriors. Canoptek miss buff and arent good for 5++ spam army.
Anrakyr are man of the match. I use him for counter atack. With heroic intervention with all my character i can counter 5 Scarabs Terminator or Daemon Prince with no cc regular unit in my army.
Plan was simple. Stalker with DDA shoot above silver tide. Characters are close to front. All Immo close and fire from 24". Disadvantages are slow tide but big fire power give it back.
Awesome to hear! What kind of weapons did you use on the Immortals, and what size did you run them? Small units or big 10 man units?
Did you miss the 5++ from a regular Cryptek compared to Szeras or did you not really notice it?
Its my report https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730793.page.
Its rather rarely when i was below 5+. I havent got warriors and my opponent haven got lot of ap 3 weapon. But szeras dont help me too much with augmentation. Only one +1 T (+2 W save) and two +1 S (nothing). But he help counter atack (5 A -2 AP) and wound two time with eldritch lance. For first shot i reroll 1D using comand point with 6D and kill hellbrute.
While we're on a modeling discussion, what model are people using for Toholk the Blinded? Just a converted cryptek? I have no idea what he looks like. I still need to get the IA xenos index, is there artwork in there?
neenj wrote: While we're on a modeling discussion, what model are people using for Toholk the Blinded? Just a converted cryptek? I have no idea what he looks like. I still need to get the IA xenos index, is there artwork in there?
When I get home I'm going to get to green stuffing one of my crypteks. A rag tied over his eye, and a tattered cape like a lord. Maybe change the bottom of his staff to symbolise the repair ability he has for vehicles.
I've always been partial to the floaty Cryptek conversions, myself.
This is my favorite-
Spoiler:
Could remove legs and just have a floating cloak torso.
Basically give him a different head (I'm thinking a Praetorian head with blindfold over the eyes part, but the orb in the center of its head still visible). Maybe change the arm, too.
skoffs wrote: I've always been partial to the floaty Cryptek conversions, myself.
This is my favorite-
Spoiler:
Could remove legs and just have a floating cloak torso.
Basically give him a different head (I'm thinking a Praetorian head with blindfold over the eyes part, but the orb in the center of its head still visible). Maybe change the arm, too.
I like that quite a bit, destroyer head on scythe overlords body, with the scythe cut off and replaced, and the left forearm replaced with green stuff(?) molded to look like a gauntlet of flame. I'm lazy and not really that good with green stuff so I'd probably do the left forearm as a destroyer forearm (I think it would be a nice grotesque contrast to his right arm, asymmetry is a fun way to indicate corruption and madness), and do a slightly modified rod of the covenant for the staff.
I made one out of a cairn wraith, a Deathmark head and a pair of arms. Stuck a few mechanical tentacles under the cloak to finish it off from a spare Tomb Spyder part.
Yeah, I don't think there's much to it so far tbh. O/lord w tesla immortals, stalker w/ all non HD big guns. Deceiver and whatever is best suited to his GI (still favour 40 warriors). Anrakyr/ orikan w/ lychguard
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, I don't think there's much to it so far tbh. O/lord w tesla immortals, stalker w/ all non HD big guns. Deceiver and whatever is best suited to his GI (still favour 40 warriors). Anrakyr/orikan w/ lychguard
Thinking about it again, how viable are CC units coming out of Night Scythes?
The NS will sit there for a turn after moving before the guys inside can get out, and once they're out they can only shoot or charge... the problem CC guys would face is, no halfway intelligent general is going to leave their stuff near a parked NS knowing what is going to be getting out the following Necron player's turn. By the time your guys get out, their intended target will have hightailed it out of there.
This leads me to believe that maybe shooty guys are best suited to stepping out of croissants?
I suppose you could park the night scythe on the unit you are planning on charging next turn, not exactly subtle but if the target unit can't move more than 10" there is still a good chance the lychguard can get it with a 3" deploy and 7" charge. Of course the best counter tactic isn't to move the unit but just to kill the night scythe, 12 wounds and a 4+ save isn't that hard to gun down. I suppose the real defense the night scythe has is it can't carry anything important, only warriors, immortals, lychguard and destroyers. The last two might be worth taking down the night scythe, but destroyers should start the game on the board, and few are running lychguard currently.
Thought of another counter tactic, just surround the night scythe, disembark is only 3" and you need to be more than 1" away from enemy units, so if you have the night scythe surrounded it can't unload.
The problem I see with NS is that, unlike other transports, if it dies nothing gets out. It seems like you need to have two to assure that whatever it is your transporting gets off your home world.
Melee out of Night Scythes is sort of a bad play. I agree: you can get surrounded, they can move away, they can shuffle around and get chaff in front, they can just blow it up - there's nothing forcing them to just sit there and eat a charge if they don't want to.
Probably the only way to make it work is using 3 Scythes and flying them all up in the opponent's face turn 1. Overwhelm with openings, make sure all Scythes are in a place where if the Lychguard/Flayed Ones get out, they can get a good charge off. But, 3 Night Scythes is 522 freaking points... brutal. You can probably make that type of list work, but it would be an uphill struggle I think.
Klowny wrote: This is good, would serve well as the FW overlord. Unfortunately it's not a cryptek chassis :(
Crypteks are smaller in stature, with staffs.
Maybe orikan's head but GS the whole head to be an eye
Couple of wraith arms as legs but reverse them so it has backwards articulating legs.
Hmmmm..... I fee a conversion coming on
Also both the main book named crypteks have distinctly different head shapes, something to try to bring to the conversion
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Yeah, I don't think there's much to it so far tbh. O/lord w tesla immortals, stalker w/ all non HD big guns. Deceiver and whatever is best suited to his GI (still favour 40 warriors). Anrakyr/ orikan w/ lychguard
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, I don't think there's much to it so far tbh. O/lord w tesla immortals, stalker w/ all non HD big guns. Deceiver and whatever is best suited to his GI (still favour 40 warriors). Anrakyr/orikan w/ lychguard
What Obyron /Zahndrekh plays are there?
Grand Illusion, with or without a bus with HQs? With shooty guys or choppy guys?
The monolith, if you want to zap in cc guys, how do you set that up?
I feel that there are a couple of decent/good things to know about, and everything is so pricey now that there is small room for error, the tactics deployed (and units that go with it) needs to be optimized a lot more than was the case in 7th,where you could just switch to plan B which was just as good, or plan C or plan D which all worked well
The problem I see with NS is that, unlike other transports, if it dies nothing gets out. It seems like you need to have two to assure that whatever it is your transporting gets off your home world.
Great that you decided to join the discussion, the more the merrier.
It really feels like GW didn't know what to do with the NS.
The purpose of the Invasion beamer is to give you flexibility, so it should give you the choice to either:
1. Let you disembark before movement just as a normal transport.
2. Let you disembark after movement, but then only allow you to shoot.
Many things like this will most likely be fleshed out in the codex. The indexes are only a quick conversion from 7th to 8th with a couple of fleshed out details here and there. I'm really looking forward to the first codex release so that we can see what to expect. Not sure when that will be. Perhaps in a couple of months?
Nice looking models for sure, but please put it in a spoiler tag! Makes viewing this page horrendous on mobile.
That aside, first post here. Getting back into 40k, last played during 4th ed. Been slowly building an army up, looking forward to playing a heap of games and trying out different builds. Have been reading this whole thread so feel I have a decent grasp on what works in conjunction with what, but one unit that puzzles me is Tomb Blades. I read a post about that Necron vs Guard FLG battle and it was said Reece is a huge fan of the unit. Why do people think that is? It seems most feel Destroyers are barely worth it due to how fragile they can be - and Destroyers have an extra wound on TBs for a fairly similar price point. Biker vs Infantry tag seems to be a huge disadvantage as well, are there any positives to having the Biker tag? Seems like it's just downsides, harder to gain cover (need to be obscured vs just being on the terrain) and lose the ability to gain various buffs.
Another point on that battle report, Reece said that he had made a big mistake at one point in that his Cryptek wasn't in range to give his Praetorians a 5+ invulnerable - I thought they weren't able to receive that buff anyway due to lacking the dynasty tag? I wonder if Reece's love for Praetorians (and maybe TBs) partly stems from him not using the keywords correctly?
cheesedupree wrote: Nice looking models for sure, but please put it in a spoiler tag! Makes viewing this page horrendous on mobile.
That aside, first post here. Getting back into 40k, last played during 4th ed. Been slowly building an army up, looking forward to playing a heap of games and trying out different builds. Have been reading this whole thread so feel I have a decent grasp on what works in conjunction with what, but one unit that puzzles me is Tomb Blades. I read a post about that Necron vs Guard FLG battle and it was said Reece is a huge fan of the unit. Why do people think that is? It seems most feel Destroyers are barely worth it due to how fragile they can be - and Destroyers have an extra wound on TBs for a fairly similar price point. Biker vs Infantry tag seems to be a huge disadvantage as well, are there any positives to having the Biker tag? Seems like it's just downsides, harder to gain cover (need to be obscured vs just being on the terrain) and lose the ability to gain various buffs.
Another point on that battle report, Reece said that he had made a big mistake at one point in that his Cryptek wasn't in range to give his Praetorians a 5+ invulnerable - I thought they weren't able to receive that buff anyway due to lacking the dynasty tag? I wonder if Reece's love for Praetorians (and maybe TBs) partly stems from him not using the keywords correctly?
Only szeras can give they +1 RP but noone give dynasty free inv... I also see when someone give MWBD on prets from overlord. Its hard rule.
cheesedupree wrote: I wonder if Reece's love for Praetorians (and maybe TBs) partly stems from him not using the keywords correctly?
Fair point.
Also worth considering: maybe they were told a unit works one way while they were play testing, but there was a typo/omission when the books went to press (eg. Imotekh having Ld9).
They seemed to indicate there were more than a few "that's gotta be a mistake" issues in the books, so maybe they were actually playing them the way the design team told them they played, but something was lost in translation (and would need to be fixed by errata).
And yes, wombis, for gods sake, man, edit your post to spoiler that image so it's not taking up half the page!
Klowny wrote: This is good, would serve well as the FW overlord. Unfortunately it's not a cryptek chassis :(
Crypteks are smaller in stature, with staffs.
Maybe orikan's head but GS the whole head to be an eye
Couple of wraith arms as legs but reverse them so it has backwards articulating legs.
Hmmmm..... I fee a conversion coming on
Also both the main book named crypteks have distinctly different head shapes, something to try to bring to the conversion
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Yeah, I don't think there's much to it so far tbh. O/lord w tesla immortals, stalker w/ all non HD big guns. Deceiver and whatever is best suited to his GI (still favour 40 warriors). Anrakyr/ orikan w/ lychguard
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, I don't think there's much to it so far tbh. O/lord w tesla immortals, stalker w/ all non HD big guns. Deceiver and whatever is best suited to his GI (still favour 40 warriors). Anrakyr/orikan w/ lychguard
What Obyron /Zahndrekh plays are there?
Grand Illusion, with or without a bus with HQs? With shooty guys or choppy guys?
The monolith, if you want to zap in cc guys, how do you set that up?
I feel that there are a couple of decent/good things to know about, and everything is so pricey now that there is small room for error, the tactics deployed (and units that go with it) needs to be optimized a lot more than was the case in 7th,where you could just switch to plan B which was just as good, or plan C or plan D which all worked well
Most obryn/zandrekh combos are ludicrously expensive, as are most monolith combos. Monolith is also hard to blink up 20 warriors as they have a large footprint.
Yea I agree with you, the price point means using a lot of the gimmicks is too prohibitive to having a well rounded list.
Deceiver bomb stuff is suited to shooting stuff, Rod praets would actually be good considering they can deploy into cover for a 2+, shoot t1, then charge t2. Also they act independently to the army so they don't have to worry about HQ buffs. I tried to clown car support for 40 warriors being decievered up and it's just too clunky to work if you don't get the 3 on the d3 roll. I aim for two units, which is very likely most games. I favour 40 warriors, but 20 immortals would be just as potent.
Heck even a max squad of TB, a maxed squad of rod praets and the deceiver is a scary front line to deal with. It is expensive but none are reliant on HQ buffs so can be effective straight away. Pair that list with some heavy hitters in the back line and it's a formidable threat combo that is unrelaint on HQ's all around.
Klowny wrote: This is good, would serve well as the FW overlord. Unfortunately it's not a cryptek chassis :(
Crypteks are smaller in stature, with staffs.
Maybe orikan's head but GS the whole head to be an eye
Couple of wraith arms as legs but reverse them so it has backwards articulating legs.
Hmmmm..... I fee a conversion coming on
Also both the main book named crypteks have distinctly different head shapes, something to try to bring to the conversion
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Yeah, I don't think there's much to it so far tbh. O/lord w tesla immortals, stalker w/ all non HD big guns. Deceiver and whatever is best suited to his GI (still favour 40 warriors). Anrakyr/ orikan w/ lychguard
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, I don't think there's much to it so far tbh. O/lord w tesla immortals, stalker w/ all non HD big guns. Deceiver and whatever is best suited to his GI (still favour 40 warriors). Anrakyr/orikan w/ lychguard
What Obyron /Zahndrekh plays are there?
Grand Illusion, with or without a bus with HQs? With shooty guys or choppy guys?
The monolith, if you want to zap in cc guys, how do you set that up?
I feel that there are a couple of decent/good things to know about, and everything is so pricey now that there is small room for error, the tactics deployed (and units that go with it) needs to be optimized a lot more than was the case in 7th,where you could just switch to plan B which was just as good, or plan C or plan D which all worked well
Most obryn/zandrekh combos are ludicrously expensive, as are most monolith combos. Monolith is also hard to blink up 20 warriors as they have a large footprint.
Yea I agree with you, the price point means using a lot of the gimmicks is too prohibitive to having a well rounded list.
Deceiver bomb stuff is suited to shooting stuff, Rod praets would actually be good considering they can deploy into cover for a 2+, shoot t1, then charge t2. Also they act independently to the army so they don't have to worry about HQ buffs. I tried to clown car support for 40 warriors being decievered up and it's just too clunky to work if you don't get the 3 on the d3 roll. I aim for two units, which is very likely most games. I favour 40 warriors, but 20 immortals would be just as potent.
Heck even a max squad of TB, a maxed squad of rod praets and the deceiver is a scary front line to deal with. It is expensive but none are reliant on HQ buffs so can be effective straight away. Pair that list with some heavy hitters in the back line and it's a formidable threat combo that is unrelaint on HQ's all around.
But you must take some hq, 2 in most case, so try to max use they buffs.
Regarding text scaling issues caused by pics, I sorted mine by using and changing the theme button near the top of the page this resized the boxes and texts (for me at least)
I've got a few dif lists I will be fielding tomorrow, I will be facing chaos for a couple games and potentially eldar for the rest of the day. I will put up all the lists used and write up a quick review. Regarding which of my lists and tactics worked out for the best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An alternative to the spoiler route for pics you could just upload the. Into the gallery and ask folk to look at them that way.
Meant to add. Armies will be 1500 pts on sat. Very restrictive to try making effective lists up with points available. Each list is themed dif
Illusion up the Deceiver, TB and praets, with a scarab unit if a 3 is rolled on the GI. Depending on the army you're facing deploy Scarabs as screening units for DDA's or aggressively if not facing many DS threats. Spyder stays with stalker and regen's it as this will be further upfield than the Arks and a smart general will focus it down. 2 arks means significant board control, virtually guaranteeing LoS to critical targets. Lords hide to deny Slay the Warlord, and can be used as sacrificial bait for DS heavy armies to bait them into unfavourable positions for the arks to retaliate upon. Unless vs'ing a smite spam army the deceiver can act independently, but otherwise use the praetorians to screen the deceiver into CC. They want to be there just as much as he does, and can RP ignore the mortal wounds. The tomb blades are more shooting/objective oriented.
I've noticed Scarabs are actually not a bad unit. They are fairly survivable considering how hilariously cheap and spammable they are. They're also fast and their damage output is linear and predictable against all opponents, and excellent screening units.
I would have dropped the Spyder in favour of more Scarabs but I didn't have enough models to fill the points. I figure the Spyder is actually a good supporting unit, capable of regenning the stuff that doesn't have RP, for a relatively cheap (for necron) cost.
I ran gauss on the blades as it's more TAC, but can swap out for tesla depending on the army you're facing. In a tourney potentially have a 60/40 split gauss to tesla. T1 they are moving very far, and putting out a hell of a lot of damage. Again they are expensive, but very tactically flexible. Can kite well, grab objectives and shred whatever you put in front of them. 36 s5 ap-2 shots that ignore cover bonuses? Not much infantry that will stand up to that much abuse.
My biggest head scratcher is what to run on the praets. Against t3 and CC based armies that want more than 1 round of CC, casters are better imo. Wounding on 2+ against t3 is better than the -3 ap as t3 will have tshirt saves anyway (unless in cover) and shooting into combat doubles the amount of potential damage. Against guard casters are head and shoulders better, but against most other armies I feel the extra ap in shooting the rods provide is much better. Auto passing morale while moving quick means they can break away from unfavourable situations and try to regen back to health. I really wish they made particle weaponry a viable alternative instead of just the bare bones cheap weapon option on most things. Give it a rend or mortal wound on 6's mechanic and it would be much more tempting. GW did a good job of making the choice between gauss and tesla a harder proposition, they could have included particle weapons into that mix.
Finally you could swap a DDA out for a TA, screen it with scarabs and have a spyder follow it around for a potent midfield threat. Haven't juggled the points around to see what would have to be dropped (as my internet is severely restricted in Thailand) but I can't imagine it being much.
Looks good.
Might be tempted to find a way to free up another 76 points for a third Sword Lord (so you can make a Spearhead detachment with the two Arks and Spyder).
Also, you want to make sure you're pretty much guaranteed to finish setting up first to get that first turn trick off. You're at an alright number now, but if it was possible to get the number of units even lower, that might be worth considering.
So i have a question for all those who play competitively under the ITC rules, Has anyone put thought on how these changes, such as set objective location and +1 to the first one who finishes deployment rather than being able to just go, may affect our overall strategy and how we would deploy. Personally the fact that we have set objectives mean that we can plan to have our troops who DS rush towards those targets rather quickly and force our opponent to come to us leaving us to set up our backfield to lay down some hell while they attempt to cross.
Illusion up the Deceiver, TB and praets, with a scarab unit if a 3 is rolled on the GI. Depending on the army you're facing deploy Scarabs as screening units for DDA's or aggressively if not facing many DS threats. Spyder stays with stalker and regen's it as this will be further upfield than the Arks and a smart general will focus it down. 2 arks means significant board control, virtually guaranteeing LoS to critical targets. Lords hide to deny Slay the Warlord, and can be used as sacrificial bait for DS heavy armies to bait them into unfavourable positions for the arks to retaliate upon. Unless vs'ing a smite spam army the deceiver can act independently, but otherwise use the praetorians to screen the deceiver into CC. They want to be there just as much as he does, and can RP ignore the mortal wounds. The tomb blades are more shooting/objective oriented.
Perhaps you could drop the Spyder and a unit of Scarabs and upgrade the Lords to Destroyer Lords with Warscythes. That would give you a bit more punch.
Very much looking forward to hear how it went.
As for the ITC rules they make sense to me, but I haven't tried them out.
Illusion up the Deceiver, TB and praets, with a scarab unit if a 3 is rolled on the GI. Depending on the army you're facing deploy Scarabs as screening units for DDA's or aggressively if not facing many DS threats. Spyder stays with stalker and regen's it as this will be further upfield than the Arks and a smart general will focus it down. 2 arks means significant board control, virtually guaranteeing LoS to critical targets. Lords hide to deny Slay the Warlord, and can be used as sacrificial bait for DS heavy armies to bait them into unfavourable positions for the arks to retaliate upon. Unless vs'ing a smite spam army the deceiver can act independently, but otherwise use the praetorians to screen the deceiver into CC. They want to be there just as much as he does, and can RP ignore the mortal wounds. The tomb blades are more shooting/objective oriented.
Perhaps you could drop the Spyder and a unit of Scarabs and upgrade the Lords to Destroyer Lords with Warscythes. That would give you a bit more punch.
Very much looking forward to hear how it went.
As for the ITC rules they make sense to me, but I haven't tried them out.
Yeah a d/lord would provide more punch, but I want to isolate the praets and TB's for effectiveness atm. Trying to gauge real world strength of units. Otherwise I would normally prefer more CC. I want to run a d/cult in the future (just looks underwhelming to me atm). But I hope it's better than I imagine. Dropping the spyder in favour of a third HQ and detachment is a good idea skoffs. Will see what I can do.
I haven't seen the ITC rules. So it's not whoever deploys first, they just get a +1 to the roll off? That's annoying, as horde armies already get multiple tactical advantages for having so many units, and now they get an extra bonus of not being forced to go second. Really bad decision imo, don't like it at all.
No, the ITC first turn rule is much much better.
With the current rule, armies that don't have viable or any transports will always go second.
For example, I have AdMech and Daemons. So for the entire 8th edition, I'll go first on a 6? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest thing ever?
Besides, the rule was changed because it promotes boring list building. Think about it, you are incentivised to bring less units. Less units = less variety. This way shooty armies can minimise unit count and always go first and blow the other army to bits. Especially Knights, since in a TAC format, they just blow up the part of the army that can reliably hurt them turn one
Gives you a couple of Warscythes to play with, plus some Psychic defense, with Praets and TBs at the same amount of wounds (to match armor and toughness).
Gives you a couple of Warscythes to play with, plus some Psychic defense, with Praets and TBs at the same amount of wounds (to match armor and toughness).
This is good if you want to maximize on CP, but here you have 1 less Praetorian and one more Lord that doesn't have any purpose. Like the gloom prism on the Spyder though.
The gloom prism will be a good addition to Klownys original list.
Three Warscythe/Sword-Lords all sticking together is a decent combat threat. Nothing terrifying, per se, but still not something most units want to be in combat with.
rvd1ofakind wrote: No, the ITC first turn rule is much much better.
With the current rule, armies that don't have viable or any transports will always go second.
For example, I have AdMech and Daemons. So for the entire 8th edition, I'll go first on a 6? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest thing ever?
Besides, the rule was changed because it promotes boring list building. Think about it, you are incentivised to bring less units. Less units = less variety. This way shooty armies can minimise unit count and always go first and blow the other army to bits. Especially Knights, since in a TAC format, they just blow up the part of the army that can reliably hurt them turn one
I agree, for all non horde armies it is a much more balanced way of doing it.
But, horde are top their atm, due to how spammable and cheap they are. They can easily fill a brigade and ancillary detachment. Meaning ridiculously more CP for them. Also, they can strategically place their chaff units until you've run out of units, then place their heavy hitters in the most advantageous place for them and worst place for you. Two advantages out of the gate. I've averaged around 10-12 units a game, nids and guard are pushing 20+, with around 15 CP to my 7.
The only downside to this was that they HAD to go second. Now they don't, there is a good chance they will ALSO get first turn (having way more CP means they can reroll their seize dice). So they get the advantage in CP, advantage in strategic placement and likely also get 1st turn.
This option has literally buffed horde armies, and horde armies don't need any more buffs atm.
rvd1ofakind wrote: No, the ITC first turn rule is much much better.
With the current rule, armies that don't have viable or any transports will always go second.
For example, I have AdMech and Daemons. So for the entire 8th edition, I'll go first on a 6? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest thing ever?
Besides, the rule was changed because it promotes boring list building. Think about it, you are incentivised to bring less units. Less units = less variety. This way shooty armies can minimise unit count and always go first and blow the other army to bits. Especially Knights, since in a TAC format, they just blow up the part of the army that can reliably hurt them turn one
This makes a lot of sense. Im new to 40k but ive played a lot of other tabletop games to a very competitive level - and the default way 40k decides 1st is very off to me. You deploy knowing with near certainty who will go first which ends up with some very aggressive shooting gallery style deploys. Havent seen a single report yet where someone seized first turn and lost, when you deploy to go first and go second its game ending. That seems like way too big a deciding factor in a game. Having a roll off for first turn requires both players to be more tactical with deployment, strike a balance between aggressive early options and also staying safe.
rvd1ofakind wrote: No, the ITC first turn rule is much much better.
With the current rule, armies that don't have viable or any transports will always go second.
For example, I have AdMech and Daemons. So for the entire 8th edition, I'll go first on a 6? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest thing ever?
Besides, the rule was changed because it promotes boring list building. Think about it, you are incentivised to bring less units. Less units = less variety. This way shooty armies can minimise unit count and always go first and blow the other army to bits. Especially Knights, since in a TAC format, they just blow up the part of the army that can reliably hurt them turn one
I agree, for all non horde armies it is a much more balanced way of doing it.
But, horde are top their atm, due to how spammable and cheap they are. They can easily fill a brigade and ancillary detachment. Meaning ridiculously more CP for them. Also, they can strategically place their chaff units until you've run out of units, then place their heavy hitters in the most advantageous place for them and worst place for you. Two advantages out of the gate. I've averaged around 10-12 units a game, nids and guard are pushing 20+, with around 15 CP to my 7.
The only downside to this was that they HAD to go second. Now they don't, there is a good chance they will ALSO get first turn (having way more CP means they can reroll their seize dice). So they get the advantage in CP, advantage in strategic placement and likely also get 1st turn.
This option has literally buffed horde armies, and horde armies don't need any more buffs atm.
To be fair, they could just drop the whole 'alternate unit deployment' aspect. Just have one player set up their whole army, then the other player sets up their army. Whoever set up first goes first.
Among other things it would probably save quite a bit of time.
Or they could take seizing out of the game completely. It's the most stressful roll of the game, every game. You shouldn't get punished for being aggressive because you think you are going first. If everyone was cautious in deployment it would also be a need to shooty armies as the big guns are heavy and get a penalty for moving into position, whereas nids and orks and all that want to just bum rush anyway.
GW give you a deployment method, so you play the best you can to make the most out of it, and then on an unlucky dice roll you lose the game 9/10 times.
I've set up many times joking that I'll have to concede t1 if I get seized on. I've just been lucky most times.
The problem with having the least go first and you are guaranteed to go first is with the way this game plays it is a guaramteed first blood. So going first and being up one point per game is a little too much to always count on. Not even talking about setting up objectives knowing you get pick table side and such
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok, let's look at the tournament results. Top 3:
harlequins
fliers marines.
Which fliers?
All fliers?
BA marine flyer spam, he is in my local meta, kind of a douche. I expressed my dislike of how cheesy that was, and my skepticism that lists like it would finish within shooting distance of the top table in a real tournament, we'll just say my FB group was less than thrilled with my analysis. it, I call em like I see em. Six flyers, with a unit of tac marines and a captain.
ooooooo, I wanna spam Gauss Sentry Pylons on someone like that SO HARD.
Haha, after a quick check, it would seem, yes, you can quite comfortably spam Sentry Pylons. Throw in a few Lords to make some Spearhear Detachments for CP. Fill the remaining points out with Scarabs to flood objectives. Yeah, I can see a list like that being quite difficult for anything but hordes to handle.
Hey there. Great discussion going on here. (First time poster... etc. etc.). Really enjoying 8th so far. Gotten 4 games in.
Had a question, and a few comments about 3 of our units: Praetorians, DDarks, Heavy Destroyers.
1. Can anyone tell me about how getting our own Necron codex will work in the future? - Right now we're included in the Xenos volume, but that's not supposed to be the final? - What will change when/if we get our own codex? - Any idea on timeline there?
2. Praetorians - Voidblade and Particle Caster is the better setup, unless you are more likely going against MEQs. Shooting into an existing combat and getting an "effective" extra Str 6 attack while in combat on your turn is useful. - Everyone is mentioning their inability to get "buffed" by other units. But unless I'm missing something, Anrakyr's MWBD work and his extra attack work on <NECRON> <INFANTRY>, making him ideal for the purpose. Same is true of Szeras. Pretty much the only thing you can't get is a 5+ invul from a regular Cryptek. Seems like a non-issue. Of course, keeping them in cohesion is tough with the movement-disparity : /. I think Anrakyr and Szeras are the best value HQs choices regardless of Dynasty. - Expensive. Wondering if these points are more effective as Scarab Swarms... for the same "role"
3. Doomsday Ark - Pro: It is essentially invincible between Living Metal, 14W and QS. - Pro: 10 Gauss Shots at 24" Str 4, AP -1. ( I actually only fired 5 per turn in my game, not being used to the profile!) - Con: D3 Shots on the cannon. I do not like the variance. Getting 1 shot a turn feels bad. I guess if I do not like variance I'm playing the wrong game. - Con: Immobility. You almost never want to move. -1 to hit, -48" range, less Str, but often you don't need to move, as there are generally targets available.
4. 3 Heavy Destroyers - Pro: Always get 3 shots. - Pro: Reroll 1s to hit. - Pro: 50 points fewer than DDark - Pro: Higher Mobility ( Valuable in an army like ours) - Con: Much less durable than the Doomsday Ark. Presents a wonderful target for the many D3 guns available. - Con: Reduced Range 36" is good, but if you're within 36", your enemies guns are as well.
- Thinking that 2-3 DDarks and a Stalker are the go-to source of high Str, D6 shooting, and durable as well. Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are probably too fragile, too low-range and a big target for D3/D6 weapons. I've convinced myself not to take them doing this analysis.
- Praetorians are probably a solid role-player if used correctly.
2. Praetorians
- Voidblade and Particle Caster is the better setup, unless you are more likely going against MEQs. Shooting into an existing combat and getting an "effective" extra Str 6 attack while in combat on your turn is useful.
- Everyone is mentioning their inability to get "buffed" by other units. But unless I'm missing something, Anrakyr's MWBD work and his extra attack work on <NECRON> <INFANTRY>, making him ideal for the purpose. Same is true of Szeras. Pretty much the only thing you can't get is a 5+ invul from a regular Cryptek. Seems like a non-issue. Of course, keeping them in cohesion is tough with the movement-disparity : /. I think Anrakyr and Szeras are the best value HQs choices regardless of Dynasty.
If prets must wait for hq lose his mobility. Anrakyr move 5", szeras 6". Both are fly less.
4. 3 Heavy Destroyers
- Pro: Always get 3 shots.
- Pro: Reroll 1s to hit.
- Pro: 50 points fewer than DDark
- Pro: Higher Mobility ( Valuable in an army like ours)
- Con: Much less durable than the Doomsday Ark. Presents a wonderful target for the many D3 guns available.
- Con: Reduced Range 36" is good, but if you're within 36", your enemies guns are as well.
How you count this points? Heavy Destroyer cost 75 pts, 3 - 225 pts. DDA cost 203 pts, so less.
Some clarification:
The Triarch Stalker's Twin HGC has 2 shots. Because we can split fire this edition, does that mean each shot can target a different unit, or do both shots have to be against the same target?
And for it's Targeting Relay ability, do the Stalkers shots actually have to HIT for other units to get the reroll-1s buff?
Because if it can split its shots between two targets AND not necessarily have to hit them to grant its bonus, perhaps a single HGC Stalker + 1 Heat S. Pylon + 1 Gauss S. Pylon could make an interesting fire team
skoffs wrote:Some clarification:
The Triarch Stalker's Twin HGC has 2 shots. Because we can split fire this edition, does that mean each shot can target a different unit, or do both shots have to be against the same target?
And for it's Targeting Relay ability, do the Stalkers shots actually have to HIT for other units to get the reroll-1s buff?
Because if it can split its shots between two targets AND not necessarily have to hit them to grant its bonus, perhaps a single HGC Stalker + 1 Heat S. Pylon + 1 Gauss S. Pylon could make an interesting fire team
It definitely can not split it's two shots. It's per weapon, for vehicles that can fire more than one weapon.
The profile is "Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon". A single weapon that gets two shots. Not two weapons. It would say, "It is equipped with two Heavy Gauss Cannons", like the DDark entry for it's flayer arrays.
Secondly, It will grant the bonus to re-rolls even if it misses both shots, per the entry wording: "... any Necron unit that makes a shooting attack against a unit that has already been attacked by an Triach Stalkers in this phase." I can declare a shooting attack against a target, with my Triarch Stalker, miss all shots, but i still attacked that unit with my Stalker.
How you count this points? Heavy Destroyer cost 75 pts, 3 - 225 pts. DDA cost 203 pts, so less.
Massive idiocy. I only added up for a unit of 2 Heavy Destroyers. Even worse!!!
And yes, the point about the HQs is that they are much slower than Praetorians is true, but I was mostly talking about how they still benefit from the "Buffs" of MWBD and better RP... so I didn't see what people were talking about in terms of not being able to be buffed.
@klowny, the objective marker ITC rules is just that objectives have set equidistant board placement and are not placed by the players. i think the reason was that people who got to choose deployment zones and shapes got too much of an advantage or something?
@nubsauce the indexes are just temporary army lists meant to bring everyone into 8th edition. Over the next year or 2 we'll see a codex a month or so come out, updating and fleshing out the rules and wargear for that army, usually along with a product push of new models/sculpts and a white dwarf issue advertising those with a splashy cover and some articles on painting/playing with the new goodies. No idea when the necron one will come, could be a while.
For unit evaluations you're more or less on point.
Preatorians I'd say rods are the better pick. Most infantry fights are resolved brutally fast, the unit you're facing has to survive 1 round of shooting and 2 rounds of fighting before you get the pistols in close combat bonus attack. For a full unit of preatorians that's 10 shots then 20 attacks then another 20 attacks, minus a few hits for whatever you lose in overwatch or return attacks between those 3 steps. Not many units in the game will survive long enough for particle casters to matter compared to every unit with an armor save hating rod shots.
@skoffs Twin and Two are the important distinction here. Twin weapons should have their own weapon profile and cost and count as a single weapon that has to shoot the same unit while Two like tomb blade guns is literally 2 dif weapons you pay for twice and can shoot at different things.
I've been running lists utilizing several DDAs (6-8) and have gotten some of my best use out of them by moving 2-3 to bring flayer arcs into rapid fire range to delete units, while leaving a few back to drop long range anti tank fire. Next turn I move the ones that stayed still and hold the ones that moved. In this manner you can leap frog around the board in a manner of speaking. You can still almost always find good targets for the low powered shots.
Maelstrom808 wrote: I've been running lists utilizing several DDAs (6-8) and have gotten some of my best use out of them by moving 2-3 to bring flayer arcs into rapid fire range to delete units, while leaving a few back to drop long range anti tank fire. Next turn I move the ones that stayed still and hold the ones that moved. In this manner you can leap frog around the board in a manner of speaking. You can still almost always find good targets for the low powered shots.
Six to eight? What size games are these or are you running min size immortals to fit within 2k?
Maelstrom808 wrote: I've been running lists utilizing several DDAs (6-8) and have gotten some of my best use out of them by moving 2-3 to bring flayer arcs into rapid fire range to delete units, while leaving a few back to drop long range anti tank fire. Next turn I move the ones that stayed still and hold the ones that moved. In this manner you can leap frog around the board in a manner of speaking. You can still almost always find good targets for the low powered shots.
Six to eight? What size games are these or are you running min size immortals to fit within 2k?
His sig says he has 5600 points of Necron, so I'm guessing pretty big ones!
The strategy sounds pretty solid. I never even thought about trying to get the barge into Rapid Fire range. But 20 shots of Str 4. AP -1 is nothing to be taken lightly! And the mobility from 12" movement, and the Fly keyword to exit CC is awesome. DDarks are so tough, they actually make a decent front-liner for any size army...
Nice. I'm sure my opponents are going to greatly dislike those.
2500 point games so higher than the standard 2k. The last couple of lists had zero troop units. One had a couple of CCBs and a couple of stalkers because it was a 100% QS list. It was mostly an experiment. Currently playing around with a list with 6 DDAs, 1 TS, 3 wraith units, nightbringer, and a couple of destroyer lords. It's done pretty well so far. I've got a team game in a days that is 1500 points per player so I'm considering how I want to down size. Even at 2k, it should be entirely possible to run 5-6 DDAs without too much fuss.
Maelstrom808 wrote: I've been running lists utilizing several DDAs (6-8) and have gotten some of my best use out of them by moving 2-3 to bring flayer arcs into rapid fire range to delete units, while leaving a few back to drop long range anti tank fire. Next turn I move the ones that stayed still and hold the ones that moved. In this manner you can leap frog around the board in a manner of speaking. You can still almost always find good targets for the low powered shots.
Six to eight? What size games are these or are you running min size immortals to fit within 2k?
His sig says he has 5600 points of Necron, so I'm guessing pretty big ones!
The strategy sounds pretty solid. I never even thought about trying to get the barge into Rapid Fire range. But 20 shots of Str 4. AP -1 is nothing to be taken lightly! And the mobility from 12" movement, and the Fly keyword to exit CC is awesome. DDarks are so tough, they actually make a decent front-liner for any size army...
Nice. I'm sure my opponents are going to greatly dislike those.
Lol, I forgot that was even there since I don't see sigs on my phone. It hasn't been updated since early 6e. I've added to it and I'm sure with 8e points it will go up a bit
Remembering a comment made earlier in the thread about the ITC first turn rule; didn't see it mentioned but you can't use a CP to seize the initiative under the ITC format. Or in the first battle round. Far more balanced that way.
, where can I view all this juicy detail about the forge world stuff? I really need to have this in my possession as soon as possible. 
. Point a stalker at the unit you want dead and they're now rerolling 1's. The buffs stack up, but it does eat a lot of the force. Even min with scarabs is 500 points odd for the unit and min. screen. And if you want the same but against elite/shooty armies, then put gauss on them. Ridiculous amount of shots of high quality, cover ignoring gauss. Also 
Hard for a 'Nid's griblies to stay alive when 40 gauss shots points their way without synapse.
Ah well.
(40pp/830pts for a reroll of 1s of 
it, I call em like I see em. Six flyers, with a unit of 