Imhotek probably isn't worth it overall. At the same time, he's far from awful.
- He has 2 shooting attacks (and can fire both) and one is arguably the best of all our HQs.
- He still has MWBD.
- He's more resilient than a regular Overlord with an extra wound, a 2+ save and Undying.
- Unlike in prior editions, he's actually decent in melee - with a weapon that's only a little off being a Warscythe.
- Lord of the Storm is pretty decent at putting wounds on something tough.
I don't think he does enough to really justify his cost, but you won't be crippling yourself by including him.
So continuing the talk about the storm lord a thought comes to mind, between him and the C'tans, that is our only access to mortal wounds. With that im mind would you not say that the stormlord has more synergy with the army overall compared to the other c'tans therefore might be a more attractive option?
Grimgold wrote: Imotekh is kind of meh [...] his stats are a let down for being the head honcho of a faction. Most chapter masters would leave him in ruins, have better buffs, and to add insult to injury are cheaper.
Again, this is something that GWreally should be hearing about in hopes that they actually do something about it for the codex.
Anyone found that contact method to get them to hear out suggestions/complaints?
(Personally, I was hoping the "greatest strategist in the galaxy" might come with something that might reflect that in game, eg. an extra command point to use on his stratagems)
With our codex I wouldn't be surprised if he gets his own strategem. And comparing him to another chapter master isn't really fair if you don't point out that he is much more durable than most of them and therefor you will have a higher chance of using his abilities for longer.
A list using Imotek, a unit of Prats and FO combined with some nice fire support will make a pretty decent list. Especially if you know you'll be going up against a cc heavy list where you can be defensive and you need anti elite and anti chaff. Imotek buffs both. You only need some guns in the back to deal with tanks/flyers and devestatoresque units.
I think it's likely their team checks forums like dakka and warseer, as well as more mainstream sites like reddit. They probably even lurk in /TG/, if only to keep 4chans piracy to a dull roar. The sheer amount of content though means that something really has to have legs to end up catching their attention.
To this end they probably check army lists, skim the threads that have suggestions or issues in the title, and avoid salt piles like the conscript or flyer threads. Anything aimed at new players with good summaries makes for low hanging fruit for them. They also probably rely on aggregators of content like the FLG guys.
I think the best thing we could do for now is to add a current issues section to the first page summary because if they are checking any part of this thread that would be it. To keep it from being a general gripe area limit it to say the three or four most pressing issues currently.
My issues would be:
1.) Tomb world deploy is awful, the risk vs. reward ratio is so unbalanced that the D-Bomb is the only time you'll see it used. Losing all of the units in tomb world deploy is too harsh of a penalty, and the lack of a movement phase for units that just come on the board makes it worse than any other transport.
2.) Vehicles are tougher for us than most armies, this is because we don't have mixed weapon in our units, and our heavy weapon squads are small, fragile, and expensive. We used to get around this with gauss, but since gauss weapons are just an extra AP now we have this hole in our armies abilities that can only be filled by forgeworld, and lots of stores won't allow forge world.
3.) inconsistent faction keywords, many of our abilities are faction keyword dependent, but those keywords have some pretty glaring omissions. Some of our ICs don't have a dynasty keyword at all, praetorians don't have a dynasty keyword (and before you say it's fluffy flayed ones have a dynasty keyword and they are certainly not part of a dynasty). I know sometime in the future dynasty keywords will do something for us, but until that point, maybe just give everyone a dynasty keyword.
4.) lackluster special characters, our special characters are generally worse than their generic counterparts. They can cost almost twice as much as generic HQs and the benefits are pretty minimal. Special characters are supposed to reinforce the fluff of a faction, while adding new options, and that's just not what our special characters do.
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Nagerash wrote: With our codex I wouldn't be surprised if he gets his own strategem. And comparing him to another chapter master isn't really fair if you don't point out that he is much more durable than most of them and therefor you will have a higher chance of using his abilities for longer.
A list using Imotek, a unit of Prats and FO combined with some nice fire support will make a pretty decent list. Especially if you know you'll be going up against a cc heavy list where you can be defensive and you need anti elite and anti chaff. Imotek buffs both. You only need some guns in the back to deal with tanks/flyers and devestatoresque units.
Dante, Azrael, Calgar, and Logan Grimnar all have better generic buffs (reroll misses to hit) in addition to two character specific buffs apiece. Tougher is iffy since an apothecary can bring them back, but once imotek is out of wounds he is done.
I tested this guy a lot and he has great potential. Is very good in CC and very good in shooting - our only HQ good in both phases. And his storm is wonderfull ability how criple anoying havocs, devastators and similar weak glas cannon. This ability has also great strategic potencial when you need kill units on objectives or finish some importent wounded unit - for complete maestrom card point or similar situation. IMHO Imhotek is wort his cost and is my favorite HQ in 8th edition.
A "top 10 units we feel need work" section for the OP might not be a bad idea (at least until we start a new thread once the codex comes out).
Even if GW doesn't see it, at least new players will have a better idea of why people don't recommend certain units.
So i have been thinking in the competitive scene, we know that scarabs are great as a multi-purpose option but i have been thinking more and more on the wraiths as a great objective holder unit. granted alone cant do squat but supported with our vehicles i think these guys have some potential. I am thinking more in a spam sense, maybe 3-4 units of 3-4 models. that 3+ inv save is nothing to sneeze at. Plus combo this with the deceiver and set them up already on objectives since his grand illusion states that you need only be away from the enemy 12" or more
Blueguy203 wrote: So i have been thinking in the competitive scene, we know that scarabs are great as a multi-purpose option but i have been thinking more and more on the wraiths as a great objective holder unit. granted alone cant do squat but supported with our vehicles i think these guys have some potential. I am thinking more in a spam sense, maybe 3-4 units of 3-4 models. that 3+ inv save is nothing to sneeze at. Plus combo this with the deceiver and set them up already on objectives since his grand illusion states that you need only be away from the enemy 12"
They are too expensive for not really being able to do what they did in the last edition, which is hold units down and stay alive aa a thorn in their side all game. With Smite that every other army has they die way too easy foe the points. Scarabs are way more cost effective and saddly just about as killy to boot.
Blueguy203 wrote: So i have been thinking in the competitive scene, we know that scarabs are great as a multi-purpose option but i have been thinking more and more on the wraiths as a great objective holder unit. granted alone cant do squat but supported with our vehicles i think these guys have some potential. I am thinking more in a spam sense, maybe 3-4 units of 3-4 models. that 3+ inv save is nothing to sneeze at. Plus combo this with the deceiver and set them up already on objectives since his grand illusion states that you need only be away from the enemy 12" or more
I've never been a fan of using melee units to hold objectives as it basically takes them out of the game.
I'd much rather use 5-man squads of Tesla Immortals or the like.
skoffs wrote: A "top 10 units we feel need work" section for the OP might not be a bad idea (at least until we start a new thread once the codex comes out).
Even if GW doesn't see it, at least new players will have a better idea of why people don't recommend certain units.
We already have unit ratings so that might be a bit redundant, so I was thinking a section for non-unit specific issues. Those issues might not be obvious, and getting feedback from actual Necron players as opposed to random theory crafters would probably carry more weight.
Blueguy203 wrote: So i have been thinking in the competitive scene, we know that scarabs are great as a multi-purpose option but i have been thinking more and more on the wraiths as a great objective holder unit. granted alone cant do squat but supported with our vehicles i think these guys have some potential. I am thinking more in a spam sense, maybe 3-4 units of 3-4 models. that 3+ inv save is nothing to sneeze at. Plus combo this with the deceiver and set them up already on objectives since his grand illusion states that you need only be away from the enemy 12" or more
I've never been a fan of using melee units to hold objectives as it basically takes them out of the game.
I'd much rather use 5-man squads of Tesla Immortals or the like.
Granted Tesla is cheaper by 19pts but what you would be getting with 1 unit of 3 wraiths is 9 wounds and a 3+ inv save. I think if we were to spam mutli units of wraiths along with scarbs. i think there is potential there. They could fill in as our core troop choice and give us mobility, which will allow us to then fill the rest of the points with vehicles & heavy weapons. Ill write up a list to present my idea abit better.
Blueguy203 wrote: Granted Tesla is cheaper by 19pts but what you would be getting with 1 unit of 3 wraiths is 9 wounds and a 3+ inv save.
They can't revive though.
More importantly, the Immortals can actually contribute to the battle by shooting at units up to 24" from the objective they're holding, whilst all the Wraiths can do is sit and twiddle their mechanical thumbs.
Blueguy203 wrote: I think if we were to spam mutli units of wraiths along with scarbs. i think there is potential there. They could fill in as our core troop choice and give us mobility, which will allow us to then fill the rest of the points with vehicles & heavy weapons. Ill write up a list to present my idea abit better.
Oh, I don't deny that such a list has potential - but I would want to be far more aggressive with the wraiths, rather than just sitting them on objectives.
I think though we can agree that Necrons are not going to be an aggressive army, we just do not have enough options out there that will allow us this playstyle. The Deciever bomb is our only choice as an aggressive army and even then its 50/50 as far as actually being successful with it. So i think we need to have the mindset that we will be going 2nd and we will need to play more toward winning the objective rather than wiping our opponents off the table. Plus, you cant tell me that 5 immortals are going withstand shooting long enough to actually use the RP. its just not possible to rely on such things against a competent player. Atleast with Wraiths you have an inv save that does not need support. if its a matter of having troops who can participate in other parts of the battle round we really do not have alot of options that will give us that luxery so we have to really rely on the fact that some options can only do one thing and excel at just that.
Lord: Now that units lost to morale stay dead, "The Lords Will" is a more important buff for warrior blobs. His main roles are baby sitting blobs and filling an HQ requirement on the cheap, so he is still situational but the round about buff he got from the morale changes might make him a solid B.
Praetorians: Like the lord the morale changes are a roundabout buff for them since they ignore morale, and the change to void blades is a good buff to their CC ability. With three s5/ap -3 CC attacks and a pistol shot each round they are point for point our best CC unit, only rivaled by flayed ones. I might give them a split rating B- for RoC, and a B+ for void blade and particle caster.
Monolith: The buff to their ballistic skill is nice, it makes them better at alpha striking, but that's only part of what a monolith is used for. Also the jump from C+ (conditionally useful) to B- (generally useful) is a big one that I'm not sure the monolith changes warrant it. Stays at a C+.
Night scythes: Having played with night scythes, I feel they are over rated at a B. Tesla can put out a lot of shots but with no AP it tends to inflict few wounds. Every time I use it to drop lychguard off my opponents just move away or move screens into place. It also deploys things one at a time, so an IC takes up an entire turn to deploy, so you just don't use it with ICs. I feel they are conditionally useful, and would probably demote them to a C or a C+.
Commissar Arkham wrote: The Catacomb Command Barge needs updated in the unit grades list. It's still written as not having a character keyword.
Not sure what you're talking about, this has been its entry since the previous FAQ-
Spoiler:
Catacomb Command Barge: A (FAQ fixed it. Now has CHARACTER keyword, so a little easier to keep from being shot. Basically an Overlord with extra movement, wounds, toughness, and a bonus gun, all for 50-ish points more)
Also while we are on the subject of grade changes, I think perhaps we should downgrade our troops to B and B+. They aren't auto-include as there are plenty of viable lists without them, and while they tend to be efficient points wise, they are slow and rarely game winning.
A ratings should be reserved for units that are a near auto-include like Doomsday arks, overlords, and crypteks.
vipoid wrote: Imhotek probably isn't worth it overall. At the same time, he's far from awful.
- He has 2 shooting attacks (and can fire both) and one is arguably the best of all our HQs.
- He still has MWBD.
- He's more resilient than a regular Overlord with an extra wound, a 2+ save and Undying.
- Unlike in prior editions, he's actually decent in melee - with a weapon that's only a little off being a Warscythe.
- Lord of the Storm is pretty decent at putting wounds on something tough.
I don't think he does enough to really justify his cost, but you won't be crippling yourself by including him.
One thing to not forget is what his Dynasty might do. Granted this will be in the future but it's still worth remembering.
Grimgold wrote: Also while we are on the subject of grade changes, I think perhaps we should downgrade our troops to B and B+. They aren't auto-include as there are plenty of viable lists without them, and while they tend to be efficient points wise, they are slow and rarely game winning.
A ratings should be reserved for units that are a near auto-include like Doomsday arks, overlords, and crypteks.
Are crypteks autoinclude though, if troops go down to B? None of his beneficiaries seem to be autoincludes if so, so why keep him around?
Grimgold wrote: Also while we are on the subject of grade changes, I think perhaps we should downgrade our troops to B and B+. They aren't auto-include as there are plenty of viable lists without them, and while they tend to be efficient points wise, they are slow and rarely game winning.
A ratings should be reserved for units that are a near auto-include like Doomsday arks, overlords, and crypteks.
Are crypteks autoinclude though, if troops go down to B? None of his beneficiaries seem to be autoincludes if so, so why keep him around?
That's a fair point, limited mobility means he is only really good at babysitting blobs which puts him in a similar position as the Lord. The ratings for Warriors, Immortals, and Crypteks all came from fairly early in the meta, when we thought silver tide was the way to go, as the meta has progressed though it seems like silver tide was based on some assumptions on enemy comp that just haven't panned out. Silver tide works great against heavy infantry, but that's not really what people are playing, instead we are seeing lots of vehicles, lots of flyers and lots of assault focused armies. Silver tide is not particularly good against any of those comps. Anrakyr might make silver tide workable against assault armies, but that's probably a different discussion.
Our viable lists seem to be Silver Tide, Quantum shielding spam, Destroyer/Tomb blade spam, and Deceiver/obyron bomb. Did I miss any? Out of those only silver tide involves more than an incidental amount of our troops, and most only need/use a single HQ. Sop we may want to rethink our HQ ratings as well.
The workhorse you'll see in all of those lists is scarabs, being a screen to stop assaults is too valuable a service and scarabs are too good at their job to think about using anything else. So they are a perfect example of a Grade A unit, and a good example of why warriors and immortals don't make the cut.
Grimgold wrote: Our viable lists seem to be Silver Tide, Quantum shielding spam, Destroyer/Tomb blade spam, and Deceiver/obyron bomb. Did I miss any? Out of those only silver tide involves more than an incidental amount of our troops, and most only need/use a single HQ. Sop we may want to rethink our HQ ratings as well.
I think so, yeah. I don't see why one would say our troops are weak. We probably have the best infantry in the game in terms of base stats.
We have the best mid range guns on our infantry, T4 LD10 across the board and a special rule that prompted the creation of a thread on this forum that complained about how good it is. Not to mention there are ways of making our infantry even better. Sure, they lack options and customization, but they don't really need it .
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I think so, yeah.
I don't see why one would say our troops are weak. We probably have the best infantry in the game in terms of base stats.
We have the best mid range guns on our infantry, T4 LD10 across the board and a special rule that prompted the creation of a thread on this forum that complained about how good it is.
Not to mention there are ways of making our infantry even better.
Sure, they lack options and customization, but they don't really need it .
I'm not saying they're weak compared to other troops, it's just that any meaningful system for grading units has to be based on comparing a unit to other available choices, and warriors/immortals are just not in the same tier of usefulness as scarabs or doomsday arks. They are hardly bad, they are just not units we try and include in every lists.
Those oddball etc team lists are the only ones i've seen that completely left out troops and even then it was only a few of those lists. Warriors and immortals are still pound for pound our best anti infantry shooting and near best durability per point.
I'm not sure we're even seeing any of the listed archetypes anymore. Where is the actual 'silver tide' list that runs like 100 warriors and 3 ghost arks? Why would anyone run a pure qs wall list when abarges can be so effectively replaced with immortals for anti horde tesla shots? Didn't everyone kind of stop using the deceiver bomb as an all-in plan after like the first 2 weeks because we pay way too much for it and a couple other armies do a way better version of turn 1 charges? Isn't destroyer wing kind of grossly overpriced and really weak to high damage attacks? Scarabs are our best unit for their job but it's not like they're as good as horrors or conscripts if we could take those, no one is really advocating a scarab farm list. If these lists are either not being run or mostly losing how are they viable?
It feels to me more like we're homogenizing down to some troops for anti infantry, some mix of vehicles for anti tank, and finally some scarabs to screen/grab objectives. That and obligatory HQ choices usually leaves only about 300 points of flex to double down on something or for some inoffensively 'okay' unit for personal flair like preatorians or a deceiver or tomb blades or whatever.
High damage weapons just don't have enough shots to be used effectively against destroyers. Las cannons for instance:
2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = .37 and of those another third will require a second shot so it's about .24 destroyers killed per lascannon shot. to take out a 6 man destroyer squad it's 25 lascannon shots. That's a bit north of half again as much as common lists bring, and more than twice what the average cron player brings.
The best weapon against them is probably multi-wound high throughput weapons like battle cannons, but nobody is really taking those. Destroyers are really an underserved target profile, hard to hurt with small arms, and too numerous for heavy weapons at max unit size. This is more or less the same target profile praetorians have, and I've used both to great effect.
Grimgold wrote: High damage weapons just don't have enough shots to be used effectively against destroyers. Las cannons for instance:
2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = .37 and of those another third will require a second shot so it's about .24 destroyers killed per lascannon shot. to take out a 6 man destroyer squad it's 25 lascannon shots. That's a bit north of half again as much as common lists bring, and more than twice what the average cron player brings.
The best weapon against them is probably multi-wound high throughput weapons like battle cannons, but nobody is really taking those. Destroyers are really an underserved target profile, hard to hurt with small arms, and too numerous for heavy weapons at max unit size. This is more or less the same target profile praetorians have, and I've used both to great effect.
Grimgold wrote: High damage weapons just don't have enough shots to be used effectively against destroyers. Las cannons for instance:
2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = .37 and of those another third will require a second shot so it's about .24 destroyers killed per lascannon shot. to take out a 6 man destroyer squad it's 25 lascannon shots. That's a bit north of half again as much as common lists bring, and more than twice what the average cron player brings.
The best weapon against them is probably multi-wound high throughput weapons like battle cannons, but nobody is really taking those. Destroyers are really an underserved target profile, hard to hurt with small arms, and too numerous for heavy weapons at max unit size. This is more or less the same target profile praetorians have, and I've used both to great effect.
Does that also account for D6 damage?
But of course, the first number assumes a kill every shot (eg; 3.5 damage per shot), the second number assumes a more reasonable stance that 1 in 3 hits will require a second shot. It's not a perfect model but it's within a lascannon shot or two of accurate.
even in a worst case scenario where every lascannon does enough damage to kill a destroyer it's still 16 ish lascannon shots to take out a 6 man destroyer squad. If you get them coming in in clumps you can use some wound allocation shenanigans to stretch out the number of shots is takes.
Extra credit, destroyers are more points efficient in terms of durability than warriors for bolters, less so for las cannons:
Bolters
2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/6 = .16 125 bolter shots 1.92 points of damage per shot 240 points
2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2/27 = .07 257 bolter shots 378 points 1.4 points of damage per shot
las cannons
2/3 * 5/6 = .56 35 lascannon shots to kill 240 points 6.9 points per shot
2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 2/3 = .24 25 las cannons to kill 378 15.12 points per shot
It isn't that destroyers can soak up x number of bs3+ lascannon shots it's that enemy armies have lascannons, and meltas, and krak missiles, and bright lances, and gauss annihilators, and anything else that does more than d3 damage. Single wound models stop the math after unsaved wounds and quantum shielding gets a ~42% chance to negate it. I'm not saying destroyers are bad just that they more fall into that personal flair category of 'okay' units, i'm pretty sure everyone agrees they need a price cut come codex if not sooner. A destroyer wing army is only like 5 units and a dlord, i just don't think that's super 'viable' as an archetype at current cost.
I think biggest problem with destroyers is actually their damage output. Two str.5 shots is not enough to justify pretty much anything about their costs. They are anti-infantry with a very low RoF but have the multi-damage and AP of anti-tank. They are overkill for most common infantry any player will ever encounter (save perhaps primaris) and with str. 5 cannot hurt most any vehicle or high toughness model with any better chance than a normal gauss flayer. This means its a dud in my book until the gun is boosted and/or the cost goes way down.
I don't want to oversell this, but destroyers are much more solid than people give them credit for, and destroyer cult style list are a very competitive.
1.) single target profile, by having a single target profile, the rule of bring the right weapon means that a lot of your opponent's weapons aren't going to be very good against them. For instance small arms require absurd numbers of shots to get a kill, and as shown above heavy weapons aren't all that great at it either.
2.) Offensively flexible, a mid strength heavy 2 weapon with a -3 ap works well against just about anything. wounds vehicles on 5s infantry on 3s and only allows t-shirt saves (6+) in all but the worst cases. 2 of them together do about as much damage as a lascannon to vehicles, and each one is about a heavy bolters worth of damage to infantry.
3.) Fast, at 10" movement with fly a destroyer cult is fast enough to kite most infantry, and can't be locked down in CC. Given how fast they are they can easily hop on an objective or concentrate in an area to burn down a priority target.
4.) Tough, at 3 wounds per model, toughness 5 and a 3+ save they are tough before repair protocols. With repair protocols and the ability to duck out of a fight thanks to their movement, they can require a lot of work to remove.
I think the real problem is one of sticker shock, people look at a unit of destroyers and think "wow that's as much as a monolith" without considering how much you are getting for that price.Yes they are expensive, but they are worth it.
Grimgold wrote: I don't want to oversell this, but destroyers are much more solid than people give them credit for, and destroyer cult style list are a very competitive.
1.) single target profile, by having a single target profile, the rule of bring the right weapon means that a lot of your opponent's weapons aren't going to be very good against them. For instance small arms require absurd numbers of shots to get a kill, and as shown above heavy weapons aren't all that great at it either.
2.) Offensively flexible, a mid strength heavy 2 weapon with a -3 ap works well against just about anything. wounds vehicles on 5s infantry on 3s and only allows t-shirt saves (6+) in all but the worst cases. 2 of them together do about as much damage as a lascannon to vehicles, and each one is about a heavy bolters worth of damage to infantry.
3.) Fast, at 10" movement with fly a destroyer cult is fast enough to kite most infantry, and can't be locked down in CC. Given how fast they are they can easily hop on an objective or concentrate in an area to burn down a priority target.
4.) Tough, at 3 wounds per model, toughness 5 and a 3+ save they are tough before repair protocols. With repair protocols and the ability to duck out of a fight thanks to their movement, they can require a lot of work to remove.
I think the real problem is one of sticker shock, people look at a unit of destroyers and think "wow that's as much as a monolith" without considering how much you are getting for that price.Yes they are expensive, but they are worth it.
I think your points are well reasoned but number 2) is exactly the problem. They are a 63 point heavy bolter or a 126 point lascannon. That is not efficient.
Hi guys, I was wondering if I could get some feedback on this list?
Spoiler:
HQ Cryptek
Overlord, warscythe, res orb
Troops 10x Immortals
20x Warriors
20x Warriors
Elites Triarch Stalker, THGC
Fast Attack Canoptek Tomb Sentinel
6x Scarabs
6x Scarabs
Heavy Support Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Dedicated Transport Ghost Ark
My primary opponent is Grey Knights, so I'm considering dropping something to get a few squads of Deathmarks to interrupt his Draigo bubbles that he deep strikes in - wait for two units to be deployed then bring in the Deathmarks to restrict where he can deploy around Draigo (Question: can I trigger multiple Hyperspace interceptions off a single enemy deep strike?). I'm also considering using deployment of my warriors into wheel and spoke formations to limit the damage that deep strikers can do (ie, have a core block of warriors with other warriors placed 2" away from the core, remove those as casualties to deny charges).
I think my biggest weakness is mobility, and getting to objectives.
Yes and no, a las cannon by itself is 40 points, so I'm paying 86 points for a 6 wound carrier that moves 10" with fly, rerolls 1's to hit, doesn't take a hit penalty for moving, and can get back up after being killed. Aside from the reroll ones to hit (which is a flat 11% boost to damage), the rest of that doesn't really add to the bottom line, but instead adds opportunities to do damage, which are much harder to quantify.
You're right in that destroyers will never be the most efficient at a given task (aside from killing primaris marines or terminators), but they will also never be incapable of performing a tasks., they can hurt vehicles, and infantry often at long ranges. Their flexibility comes at a cost, but you are already paying an opportunity cost every time a units out of optimal range or uses a weapon that has a rotten RoI against a specific target profile. Still without a victory at a GT this is all theory, and much of it is hard to prove with math. So I'm entering a local GT that's in about a month with the below list:
I personally haven't played with many destroyers, they did good in the one game I played them but didn't take enough to get a good idea. If grim has played with them and rates them, I'm happy with bumping them up a few notches.
Scarabs are definitely A(+/-). TheY mulch razorwings, brimstones, and all hordes with bad saves (so long as the numbers aren't too big i.e 30 boys or 50 scripts). Fast, tonne of wounds, tonne of attacks. 5+ wound everything in the game.
Tomb blades I feel, are appropriately costed for what they do now. They were undercosted in 7th, maybe they could be argued to be slightly too expensive now, but not by much I feel. They are a near auto-include in my armies now. Effectively ap-3 to stuff in cover, meaning a Terminator in cover has a 4+ save, and 5 termies will explode when faced with that many rapid fire shots. They have two guns so each TB can split fire 50% of their shots at different targets. 9 of these w/ gauss blew 30 boys off the table in one round of shooting after Ld killed the last few, all while the boys were in cover! They're fast, durable, customisable, have RP. I feel A teir IMO. They are hard to buff yes, but they dont need buffing in any way. Very efficient on their own.
Destroyers [18 PL, 390pts]
. 5x Destroyer: 5x Gauss Cannon
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
Destroyers [18 PL, 390pts]
. 5x Destroyer: 5x Gauss Cannon
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
So I guess we'll see if outrider with a heavy focus on destroyers is a viable necron list.
I'd try and bump up your scarab squads if you can Grim. I've found small screens die fast, due to protecting important units they get focused down really quick. High damage multi attack units shred them, and 1st turn DS charges are a thing now.
It's for this reason I want to include a unit of Deathmarks off table for emergency charge disruption. Even if it's only 5, a hundred points is a small price to pay to keep your more valuable units from being surprise charged.
(though obviously it's better to take 10 to be more effective).
It's for this reason I want to include a unit of Deathmarks off table for emergency charge disruption. Even if it's only 5, a hundred points is a small price to pay to keep your more valuable units from being surprise charged.
(though obviously it's better to take 10 to be more effective).
How would this ever work? Opponents pop down 9.01 inchies away from what they want to charge and then your deathmarks come down and can not get in between those units to stop the charge as they too need to be more than 9 away as well. So how are they stoping the charge?
It's for this reason I want to include a unit of Deathmarks off table for emergency charge disruption. Even if it's only 5, a hundred points is a small price to pay to keep your more valuable units from being surprise charged.
(though obviously it's better to take 10 to be more effective).
How would this ever work? Opponents pop down 9.01 inchies away from what they want to charge and then your deathmarks come down and can not get in between those units to stop the charge as they too need to be more than 9 away as well. So how are they stoping the charge?
It's disruption, not fully stopping.
In Rapid Fire range, 5 Deathmarks already get a couple of wounds w/ a Mortal Wound on top. A full squad is 20 Bolter shots basically for attempting.
I think slayer might be onto something, I don't know how broadly applicable it is, but with as cheap as deathmarks are might be worth a try. To add my own twist to it, Friendly units can be set up within an inch of each other, so you plop them down in such a way as they have to multicharge the deathmarks and the target unit. They then rapid fire as soon as they land, and get to shoot overwatch on the charge. On your turn you pull the targeted unit out of combat and leave the deathmarks in, now they have to finish off the deathmarks or pull back. So you hurt them on the charge and cock block them afterwards.
It should work well against units like the tygon prime, flayed ones, and warp talons. Probably not as useful against things like assault terminators since they will have good saves.
If 3 Scarabs are too easy to wipe out, and 9 Scarabs are overkill, what's the sweet spot?
(and how many units of that number would you want to be running in a list?)
I like the idea of running deathmarks for disruption but the only thing i have to say in regards to how it will work against 1st turn chargers is that it wont stop those units who can actually make those charges. for instance Heldrakes, because units like this can fly they have the luxury of being able to choose who they will want to charge. the deathmarks will not be able to stop such units from hitting thier targets, So the question is how do we stop these types of units?
Scarabs i am liking the idea of running them in units of 6. thats 24 wounds @ 78 pts each. big enough to make a shield small enough to still be maneuverable.
Just had a game against admech w/ CCB, wraiths, D/lord w/ 5&1 Destroyers, 2x6 TB units w/ gauss, vanes and scopes, and some big guns in the back. TB did work, ignoring cover clears out infantry bunkered in terrain quicksmart. Made good RP roles, denied shooting to onagers and grabbed objectives all game. Soaked punishment, as did the Destroyers. I got seized on, lost my TA, DDA, 2 TB and 5 wraiths before the game started. Managed to end the game t5 up on points, otherwise would have probably been tabled t6. Imperial Knights are brutal!! Such a powerful unit. Destroyers did a lot of damage too, but I kinda prefer a WS on him over the SoL, the shooting doesn't make up for better attacks, considering the extra attack he gets. I used the FLY keyword to tie up his onagers up with my Destroyers, deny his shooting next phase and fell back and shot. Crawl isn't that tough, his a very good supporting unit but he is not hard to kill, especially compared to his old power level.
The thing with Destroyers from a competetive tournament view is that their weapon fills a weird tier, a useless tier. What you want is to be able to kill T4 and T7 effectively and also have that capability to kill T8.
Gauss Cannons are not cost effective against these toughness tiers. Sure it's effective against T4 multiple wound models, but these can be counted on one hand in a competetive tournament.
Heavy destroyers on the other hand are in a very good place except that they are more vulnerable than a vehicle at the same point cost.
lost my TA, DDA, 2 TB and 5 wraiths before the game started.
How did the Ad mech player manage to do that much damage to that many units and models?
What would you change if you went against ad mech again beside the Scythe on your D lord?
My guess is Onagers. I use them and they're pretty brutal.
Robots with phospur blasters will kill the wraiths easy, as they put out an astounding amount of shots and you will fail those saves eventually.
Bigger things killed by dunecrawlers - they are one of the best tanks in the entire game right now. 143 points buys you a T7 tank with 11 wounds and a 5++, the neutron laser is amazing doing d3 shots d6 damage with a minimum of 3 points. Parked together and next to their HQ they can re-roll misses, reroll saves of 1, and get repaired.
I love the models and the army, and would have started them a while ago, but already two players in my group have Ad mech.
oh, and then look at their troops....(K destroyers with grav).
Cmdr_Sune wrote: The thing with Destroyers from a competetive tournament view is that their weapon fills a weird tier, a useless tier. What you want is to be able to kill T4 and T7 effectively and also have that capability to kill T8.
Gauss Cannons are not cost effective against these toughness tiers. Sure it's effective against T4 multiple wound models, but these can be counted on one hand in a competetive tournament.
Heavy destroyers on the other hand are in a very good place except that they are more vulnerable than a vehicle at the same point cost.
I myself always compare 4 Destroyers to 1 Tesseract Ark. For around the same points you get a better gun with separate profiles, 2 Gauss Cannons (no point because the 2nd Assault D6 is the same as them and better) or 2 Tesla Cannons. Better thoughness, QS, Living Metal, Long range and Short range weaponary. Etc.
I guess I just love the Tesseract Ark and will rather take one then the Destroyers until my requirements that I posted early are met.
Tesseract ark doesn't come back, and I've killed knights with destroyers so their guns work plenty well. I'm happy to show you the math if you like. I've walked every army I've fought with the destroyer lists, except for guilliman and ultramarines. The new tactics and rules weren't so bad, it was definitely power creep, but dealable.
I hate Robby G so much, I've fought four knights and magnus and that still was more winnable than a million marines march with Robby G. It's discouraging that we don't have a good answer for him, hell I'd settle for a bad one. It's not like can stay out range of him and the smurf bubble since 24" is our main range. Can't beat him in assault, since he never misses, and almost never fails to wound. I thought about counter tactics with nemesor zahndrekh, but that only last until the start of your opponent's turn, which is a not effective since you need to turn off his auras on his turn otherwise you'll get boltered to death. Deathmarks would struggle to get past his 2+/3++, and he could take the night bringer without much issue.
So does anyone have any ideas on how to beat papa smurf?
For the most part Bobby G is very vulnerable to shooting. Warriors will down him in enough numbers. Multi wounds weapons like heavy gauss,you death Ray's DDA also really put the hurt on. In CC though not much in the game (not just a necron problem) can touch him. I don't try and just feed him units, retreat then shoot. Not ideal but also not much you can do against him.
Would anyone be able to recommend a 1000 point list that would best demonstrate how necrons play? Not sure if this is the correct place to ask but thought I'd give it a shot.
Yeah a knight and 2 onagers took down my tanks, kataphrons with grav shredded my wraiths and TB.
I agree with Destroyers being in a weird spot. They're really good against infantry, and I can see them excelling against space marines and their equivalents. But once the troops were gone their damage output dropped off significantly, and they became HQ protection after a point. I honestly couldn't say who my MVP was, TB and Destroyers both did a lot of heavy lifting in different ways. I played that list just to try out a large number of TB and wraiths, and wanted to see what a maxed squad of Destroyers could do.
Buckyeye6 wrote: Would anyone be able to recommend a 1000 point list that would best demonstrate how necrons play? Not sure if this is the correct place to ask but thought I'd give it a shot.
This is as good a place as any, we are all pretty relaxed, and can often get off topic from time to time. If you are not super worried about being competitive and just want to sample from the necron buffet, the below list is one I used to get my arms around 8th ed for necrons:
It's a fairly good match against the dark imperium forces without being overwhelming, just watch out for CC, and get the scarabs on the hell blasters ASAP. If you want more CC you could trade up to some wraiths, but I think learning to use scarabs as screens will be valuable practice. You'll get most of this list from the start collecting box. It gets the basics of necron buffing, tesla, how to most effectively use Reanimation protocols, and some experience with quantum shielding. Once you get this list down then it's just learning heavy vehicles like the doomsday ark, and our more specialized units like tomb blades and praetorians.
I myself always compare 4 Destroyers to 1 Tesseract Ark. For around the same points you get a better gun with separate profiles, 2 Gauss Cannons (no point because the 2nd Assault D6 is the same as them and better) or 2 Tesla Cannons. Better thoughness, QS, Living Metal, Long range and Short range weaponary. Etc.
I guess I just love the Tesseract Ark and will rather take one then the Destroyers until my requirements that I posted early are met.
The TA is indeed excellent. It's anti tank capabilities doesn't quite reach the level of Heavy Destroyers. As Grimgold mentioned you will need to have something that can effectivley deal with T8. I wrote a axtensive summary on another forum.
My heavy support rankings
Spoiler:
Introduction
I have math hammered a bit and formed some opinions on our heavy weapon platforms and ranked them by:
1. Damage output
2. Toughness
3. Range
4. Support weapons
5. Abilites
6. Mobility
7. Close combat
The following units have been included and points values have been normalized in the calculations (not included) that I've made, so that they are compared point for point.
- Doomsday Ark
- Heavy Destroyer
- Sentry Pylon
- Stalker
- Tesseract Ark
- Tomb Sentinel
I have not included the Monolith, Obelisk or Tesseract Vault because they are really lacking heavy firepower compared to their points cost.
The Doom Scythe is also not included because its terribly overcosted. Comparing to other Necron vehicles it should cost about 170 points and compared to other factions flyers (say hello to Stormtalons, Stormhawks and perhaps Hemlock Wraithfighters) its still expensive if it should be priced at 170 points.
The Gauss Pylon is not included because of reasons. (Hint, I will add it later).
Rankings summary
The Necrons heavy weapon platforms seems to be very well balanced.
They all have a place in a Necron armylist depending on what role they need to fill.
- Sentry Pylons and Heavy Destroyers do the most damage, but they might also be dead by turn 2-3. So you will need to have other threats in your army that draws the opponents attention.
- The Stalker will buff other units and is by itself not an optimal choice, but it's not bad either since it's pretty though and have a (bit below) average damage output.
- The Doomsday Ark and Tesseract Ark does not have the damage output of the Sentry Pylon, but are tough and will hopefully survive many turns. They also have support weapons and does not necessarily need to be screened.
- The Tomb Sentinel can be used to attack a weak spot in the enemy line such as artillery if they are left unguarded.
Rankings
Starting with the most important.
1. Damage output, only heavy weapons, at normalized point value: 1. Sentry Pylon with heat cannon
2. Heavy Destroyer
3. Tesseract Ark
4. Tomb Sentinel
4. Stalker
5. Doomsday Ark
The Sentry Pylon has almost twice the damage output of the Doomsday Ark (not including Flayer arrays).
At melta range the Sentry Pylon has superior firepower to the rest.
From the Heavy Destroyer there is a 20% drop to the Tesseract Ark which has a similiar damage output as the Tomb sentinel.
The Tomb Sentinel has however only 12" range so you need to Phase tunnel or move and shoot.
From there 10% drop between the rest.
2. Toughness at normalized point value 1. Tesseract Ark
2. Stalker
3. Doomsday Ark
4. Tomb Sentinel
5. Sentry Pylon
6. Heavy Destroyer
Quantum shielding is calculated into toughness, RP and Living metal are not.
The Tesseract Arks 5++ brings it to the top.
Units without Quantum shielding fair poorly against melta, lascannons and other high damage weapons.
The Heavy Destroyer is really lagging here, but that is somewhat redeemed by RP.
3. Range 1. Doomsday Ark
2. Tesseract Ark
3. Heavy Destroyer
4. Sentry Pylon, Stalker
5. Tomb Sentinel
Heavy Destroyer are above Sentry Pylon and Stalker since it can move and fire without penalty thus extending its effective range.
The Tomb Sentinel is most likely Phase tunneled into position, but then it suffers move and shoot penalty.
4. Support weapons 1. Doomsday Ark
2. Tesseract Ark
NA. Stalker, Sentry Pylon, Heavy Destroyer, Tomb Sentinel
Tesseract Ark might be at number one since it has three firing modes on its main weapon and has three other weapon options.
5. Abilities (my opinions) 1. Heavy Destroyers (RP, Hardwired hatred, Repulsor platform)
2. Tomb Sentinel (Gloom prism, Phase tunneling, Living metal)
3. Stalker (Targeting relay, Living metal)
4. Sentry Pylon (Artillery battery, Teleportation Matrix, Living metal)
5. Tesseract Ark (Gravitational flux, Tesseract implosion, Living metal)
6. Doomsday Ark (Living metal)
Quantum shielding and invul. saves are already calculated into toughness.
6. Mobility 1. Tomb Sentinel
2. Heavy Destroyer
3. Doomsday Ark and Tesseract Ark
4. Stalker
5. Sentry Pylon
I've included the effect of deep strike abilities into mobility.
Since Destroyers can move and shoot without penalty they have a high mobility.
Although the Sentry Pylon can teleport it's terribly slow afterwards.
7. Close combat 1. Tomb Sentinel
2. Stalker
3. Heavy Destroyer
4. Doomsday Ark and Tesseract Ark
5. Sentry Pylon
Doomsday Ark and Tesseract Ark have Fly so are therefore positioned above the Sentry Pylon.
buddha wrote: In CC you can get lucky with the nightbringer.
For the most part Bobby G is very vulnerable to shooting. Warriors will down him in enough numbers. Multi wounds weapons like heavy gauss,you death Ray's DDA also really put the hurt on. In CC though not much in the game (not just a necron problem) can touch him. I don't try and just feed him units, retreat then shoot. Not ideal but also not much you can do against him.
Eh?
How is he possibly vulnerable to shooting? You're not even allowed to target him in the first place.
The TA is indeed excellent. It's anti tank capabilities doesn't quite reach the level of Heavy Destroyers. As Grimgold mentioned you will need to have something that can effectivley deal with T8. I wrote a axtensive summary on another forum.
The TA can deal with toughness 8? The Singularity Chambers Solar Flare profile is Heavy D6 S 8 AP -3 D6 while a Heavy Destroyer is Heavy 1 S 9 AP -4 D6. Both wound on 4s so I would rather the D6 shots over a single shot as you can never do worse only better. Also, 3 H Destroyers is 225 and only 3 S9 D D6 attacks while the TA is 240-260 for "worse" guns but more of them, weapons that can do D1, D3 and D D6 damage and more veritile as you can literally have it in front of your opponent melting everything they have or keep it back field and melt everything they have with the heat of the sun.
buddha wrote: In CC you can get lucky with the nightbringer.
For the most part Bobby G is very vulnerable to shooting. Warriors will down him in enough numbers. Multi wounds weapons like heavy gauss,you death Ray's DDA also really put the hurt on. In CC though not much in the game (not just a necron problem) can touch him. I don't try and just feed him units, retreat then shoot. Not ideal but also not much you can do against him.
Eh?
How is he possibly vulnerable to shooting? You're not even allowed to target him in the first place.
With the implication, of course, that you've chewed through screening units. When Bobby G is threatening you in CC this shooting opportunities will be easier.
Buckyeye6 wrote: Would anyone be able to recommend a 1000 point list that would best demonstrate how necrons play? Not sure if this is the correct place to ask but thought I'd give it a shot.
This is as good a place as any, we are all pretty relaxed, and can often get off topic from time to time. If you are not super worried about being competitive and just want to sample from the necron buffet, the below list is one I used to get my arms around 8th ed for necrons:
It's a fairly good match against the dark imperium forces without being overwhelming, just watch out for CC, and get the scarabs on the hell blasters ASAP. If you want more CC you could trade up to some wraiths, but I think learning to use scarabs as screens will be valuable practice. You'll get most of this list from the start collecting box. It gets the basics of necron buffing, tesla, how to most effectively use Reanimation protocols, and some experience with quantum shielding. Once you get this list down then it's just learning heavy vehicles like the doomsday ark, and our more specialized units like tomb blades and praetorians.
After inspiration from other forum members in this thread, I made my own Toholk the Blinded out of a cairn wraith model. I didnt have a TDB to model him with so made his Aesonstave extra fancy. SUPER fun to build and paint!! Next up is my pylon, thats gonna take a lot of paint..
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I know its not tactics, just wanted to share my creation with everyone here
The TA is indeed excellent. It's anti tank capabilities doesn't quite reach the level of Heavy Destroyers. As Grimgold mentioned you will need to have something that can effectivley deal with T8. I wrote a axtensive summary on another forum.
The TA can deal with toughness 8? The Singularity Chambers Solar Flare profile is Heavy D6 S 8 AP -3 D6 while a Heavy Destroyer is Heavy 1 S 9 AP -4 D6. Both wound on 4s so I would rather the D6 shots over a single shot as you can never do worse only better. Also, 3 H Destroyers is 225 and only 3 S9 D D6 attacks while the TA is 240-260 for "worse" guns but more of them, weapons that can do D1, D3 and D D6 damage and more veritile as you can literally have it in front of your opponent melting everything they have or keep it back field and melt everything they have with the heat of the sun.
Heavy Destroyers wound T8 on 3+ and have -4 rend, they also reroll 1's on to hit rolls. Heavy destroyers do better damage to high T targets such as Knights and Land raiders and a little bit better damage against T7 3+.
Once again it's importat to be able to handle different toughness tiers that's why TA complement Heavy destroyers and DDA, not replace them.
Yeah I was wondering why heavy d's dont get much adoration, they seem to be the prime anti-vehicle workhorse of the army to the point of being a staple unit. I would think Any necron army with 10 immortals and 3 heavy destroyers could give any point equivalent a run for their money (minus T3 blobs which are prob better handled with plain warriors)
That said I just got tomb sentinel which is pretty lulzy but it's really easy to partially counter it, only 12" range on the gun. I'd love to try the tesseract ark but cant find a cheap one on ebay
Could try converting up a TA, thats what im doing. The back half is the back half of the ark kit, just with different exhaust ports. All you really need to do is convert up the big front shield and its good to go.
That said I just got tomb sentinel which is pretty lulzy but it's really easy to partially counter it, only 12" range on the gun.
I like to DS the Sentinel in then target a unit with its S 10 AP -4 D 3 weapon and roll for a 9.1 inch charge. re-rolling a dice via CP if I fail.
Get into CC and hope you get the unit down to 4 wounds or less because it is better to be stuck in CC then to take down the unit. If it stays in CC your Sentinel cannot get shoot at by other units and you will definitely kill the unit you in CC with or. Your opponent will Fall Back, shoot the hell out of the Sentinel leaving your other crons untouched. Then, on your turn. You can do the same routine and slowly devour your opponents hard-hitting units.
I ran this will 8 units of 7 Scarabs to act like a "meat shield" for smite. Got the Sentinel to CC the unit of choice, got 3 Scarabs to hold up 3 other units that peaked my interest, other Scarabs acted as meat shields.
Then T2 I would FB one unit of Scarabs, target the unit the Scarabs left with the Sentinel. While have 2-3 TA as my Gun line and a Triarch Stalker.
I found that to be quite effective tbh. Well, it was affective against the Tzeentch army I was against recently.
In a week or so I will be fielding a 2000pts fast paced list against 4 (roughly) 500pt lists.
[Vanguard]
Anrak with 2 praetorian (x10) units supported with a stalker (HG)
[Outrider]
Destroyer Lord with 2 destroyer units(x4 GC/1xHG) supported with 9 scarabs
Going to be brutal to vs but I wanted to see how force felt against dif armies.
I have found the Tesseract Ark to be quite good in a game - its lack of S9 was not as big a deal, as I also had a DDA in the game (as pointed out above, it is an addition, not a replacement for the DDA or Heavy destroyers).
The diversity of weapons and the 5++ really help a lot.
Regarding its price - just save up for it and get it - show foregworld that there is love for something other than 30k stuff...
Just one note; it is a bit tricky to build - I suggest building it in components, then painting it, then finally assembly.
davethepak wrote: I have found the Tesseract Ark to be quite good in a game - its lack of S9 was not as big a deal, as I also had a DDA in the game (as pointed out above, it is an addition, not a replacement for the DDA or Heavy destroyers).
The diversity of weapons and the 5++ really help a lot.
Regarding its price - just save up for it and get it - show foregworld that there is love for something other than 30k stuff...
Just one note; it is a bit tricky to build - I suggest building it in components, then painting it, then finally assembly.
I'm starting mine in a little bit, what's tricky about it?
skoffs wrote: If 3 Scarabs are too easy to wipe out, and 9 Scarabs are overkill, what's the sweet spot?
(and how many units of that number would you want to be running in a list?)
I feel if you run max squads of scarabs you can start to use them offensively. They put out a bucketload of attacks, and they start do actually do stuff that isnt just protect stuff. Gives more of a choice.
[Vanguard]
Anrak with 2 praetorian (x10) units supported with a stalker (HG)
[Outrider]
Destroyer Lord with 2 destroyer units(x4 GC/1xHG) supported with 9 scarabs
The only shooting that will benefit from the Stalker will be the Praetorians. It kinda seems like maybe you should be using those points on something else.
And Anrakyr is too slow to be of much use with the Praetorians.
[Vanguard]
Anrak with 2 praetorian (x10) units supported with a stalker (HG)
[Outrider]
Destroyer Lord with 2 destroyer units(x4 GC/1xHG) supported with 9 scarabs
The only shooting that will benefit from the Stalker will be the Praetorians. It kinda seems like maybe you should be using those points on something else.
And Anrakyr is too slow to be of much use with the Praetorians.
Yip the stalker was included when the points were set at a thousand. But when they were increased I kept it mainly for the theme. My opponents know how powerful and beneficial the stalker can be from the games it's been played against them so I know they will spend a turn or two trying to wreak it. ( they haven't faced off against either prets or dests yet)
Anrakyr may struggle on one or two turns but I know my opponents will be deep striking units close to me so I will have a few turns of assists in CC whilst my dest wing moves around the flank pushing forces back towards my mid field preats.
So after having spent some time thinking about Roboute Guilliman, I've come to accept we don't have a good solution for him. He causes the units around him to hit at a bit more than twice their normal ability, and since he is more or less invulnerable in his bubble of bodies, we have to fight him on his terms. Hitting his back lines is difficult because he can screen them with units that daisy chain into the aura. His weight of fire is so overwhelming that there is no way we can win a firefight, because he will just wipe units making RP a non-issue. Without RP we are about as tough as SMQ, so matched on toughness and overwhelmed on offense makes the outcome inevitable.
If we can't beat him in a fair fight, we'll have to beat him by other means. We can combine two tricks to give us a fighting chance. The first trick is the deceiver bomb, which will let us get in close enough to get an alpha strike in, if we can hurt him enough early enough we might be able to snowball that damage into a win. The second is Nemesor Zahndrekh, I misread his rule, and it turns out he is a hard counter for Roboute, if you can end your turn within 12" of Roboute you can shut down all of his auras for his next turn and your next turn.
The idea goes something like this, Using the deceiver get the nemesor as close as you can to Roboute, he'll need to finish his movement within 12" of Roboute so don't be afraid to advance. For the second/third tag along Bring a unit like immortals or destroyers, something that can hit hard from range (because he will still have his aura in CC on your turn). Then use Obyron to bring in a 10 man lychguard squad into range for a charge, bonus points if you can get a line on papa smurf since 10 lychguard should be able to mess him up, but we'll assume that our opponent is competent and properly screened him. If possible daisy chain a lychguard back to the nemesor because he just became the only target in your army.
He'll have two choices, book it, or go all in on the nemesor, no matter what happens though you've hurt him and stopped him from hurting you, and you have a fighting chance. Still working out how to pull this off if he wins deployment or seizes.
The basic plan is that the troops, HQs, and stalkers walk up the board, with the ghost ark acting to restore a warrior squad that got focus fired to death. Anrakyr would double the amount of attacks that the Warriors and immortals could make, and thus allow them to take charges and fight in melee well. Szeras's strength buff would also become less bad with Anrakyr doubling the amount of attacks. The Triarch stalkers would escort the main blob and mark enemy units for death. The doomsday arks relax in the back and snipe vehicles with stalker support, while deathmarks act to discourage deep strikes on them. I think it might be worth it to replace the deathmarks and the Doomsday Arks with two Tesseract Arks, or a Gauss Pylon
Mobile Spearhead/Outrider Detachment:
Spoiler:
HQ: Destroyer Lord with a warscythe and a res orb, Cattacomb Command Barge with warscythe and res orb
Fast Attack: 3 squads of 5 destroyers with a heavy destroyer per squad
Heavy: 3 Annihilation Barges
This list would work by moving quickly across the board, snatching objectives, and using the destroyer lord in conjunction with the barge to guarantee that one of the destroyers hits all of its hits. The annihilation barges would act as horde control. One possibility is to replace a destroyer from each squad and an annihilation barge with a Tesseract ark for additional anti-tank support.
Ctan Based Battalion:
Spoiler:
HQ: Anrakyr the Traveller, Overlord with Res Orb and Warscythe
Troops: 10 Gauss Immortals, 10 Gauss Immortals, 10 Tesla Immortals
Elite: Ctan Shard of the Nightbringer, Ctan Shard of the Deciever, 10 x Triarch Praetorians with void blades and particle casters
Heavy: 2 Heat Ray Sentry Pylons
This list would Basiclaly be one big gimmicky deepstrike. The Deciever would drop the gauss immortals into cover in rapid fire range, and if It gets lucky it would drop Anrakyr into a good position. The Nightbringer and the Triarch praetorians would move as a squad and Anrakyr would try to keep pace with them to give a bonus attack to the praetorians. The pylons would be able to deep strike into melta range to liquefy tanks early on, and the Deciever would teleport itself into a good hard to see position and use its Ctan powers in safety turn one.
I'm not sure how these lists would fair, but I am looking for feedback on any of them, and any improvements that could be made.
Biasn wrote: So , after all the other factions are talking about their codex wishes , what would you guys like to see changed/adjusted?
Artefacts
More access to weapon options and wargear for HQs
Clarification on nightscythe and monoliths transportation ie are they transports, can transportees move after 'disembark'?
For necron keywords to have meanings
Point reduction for some key units
Can we not turn the tactics thread into a wish list thread? From previous experience that has a tendency to get out of control very quickly, with pages and pages of irrelevant discussion that people who are looking for tips on how to play will have to dig through.
There are other parts of the forum that would be more appropriate places to discus that.
Thanks for all the replies on Imotekh. I tried him and he just felt pretty lackluster. Felt he was far to expensive for only 3 shots a turn at 18".
I've got a tournament coming up this Saturday and I'm struggling to figure out how to finish this list. I've got access to pretty much everything except destroyers, what would you guys do? I'm thinking maybe dropping a couple warriors and adding a C'tan, or adding a Ghost Ark to help keep the warriors up. The reason I've split the scarabs into a squad of 6 and two squads of 3 is because we're playing ITC missions so kill points may be drawn. Going up to 4 scarabs doubles their PL.
thisguyy wrote: Thanks for all the replies on Imotekh. I tried him and he just felt pretty lackluster. Felt he was far to expensive for only 3 shots a turn at 18".
I've got a tournament coming up this Saturday and I'm struggling to figure out how to finish this list. I've got access to pretty much everything except destroyers, what would you guys do? I'm thinking maybe dropping a couple warriors and adding a C'tan, or adding a Ghost Ark to help keep the warriors up. The reason I've split the scarabs into a squad of 6 and two squads of 3 is because we're playing ITC missions so kill points may be drawn. Going up to 4 scarabs doubles their PL.
For your list, you would have to explain the tactics of what each of your unit will be doing? Me personally, you have too many stalkers to accomplish what you are doing. I would drop one for sure and run a sypder to baby sit it along with a unit of scarabs as a meat shield to protect it. The stalker will be a priority for your opponent. You have no answer really for mutli heavy vehicles. sure the Darks can do D3 each but its not enough to take out multi vehicles and control the pace of the game. Getting a C'tan (deciever) will be a great idea and what i would suggest is getting your scarabs to hold up his lines long enough for you to get into position. this will make your Darks abit more valuable as far as thier long range but you will need something more to really put the hurt to your opponent. What else do you ahve access to as far as models goes??
Grimgold wrote: So after having spent some time thinking about Roboute Guilliman, I've come to accept we don't have a good solution for him. He causes the units around him to hit at a bit more than twice their normal ability, and since he is more or less invulnerable in his bubble of bodies, we have to fight him on his terms. Hitting his back lines is difficult because he can screen them with units that daisy chain into the aura. His weight of fire is so overwhelming that there is no way we can win a firefight, because he will just wipe units making RP a non-issue. Without RP we are about as tough as SMQ, so matched on toughness and overwhelmed on offense makes the outcome inevitable.
If we can't beat him in a fair fight, we'll have to beat him by other means. We can combine two tricks to give us a fighting chance. The first trick is the deceiver bomb, which will let us get in close enough to get an alpha strike in, if we can hurt him enough early enough we might be able to snowball that damage into a win. The second is Nemesor Zahndrekh, I misread his rule, and it turns out he is a hard counter for Roboute, if you can end your turn within 12" of Roboute you can shut down all of his auras for his next turn and your next turn.
The idea goes something like this, Using the deceiver get the nemesor as close as you can to Roboute, he'll need to finish his movement within 12" of Roboute so don't be afraid to advance. For the second/third tag along Bring a unit like immortals or destroyers, something that can hit hard from range (because he will still have his aura in CC on your turn). Then use Obyron to bring in a 10 man lychguard squad into range for a charge, bonus points if you can get a line on papa smurf since 10 lychguard should be able to mess him up, but we'll assume that our opponent is competent and properly screened him. If possible daisy chain a lychguard back to the nemesor because he just became the only target in your army.
He'll have two choices, book it, or go all in on the nemesor, no matter what happens though you've hurt him and stopped him from hurting you, and you have a fighting chance. Still working out how to pull this off if he wins deployment or seizes.
I feel the best way to deal with him, is to ignore him and kill everything he is buffing.
I know its not an answer on how to beat him, but at the end of the day he is brought mainly for his buffing capabilities. Sure he is a beatstick, but every nasty list that has him has him as a countercharge threat, not an offensive one.
I feel the best way to deal with him, is to ignore him and kill everything he is buffing.
I know its not an answer on how to beat him, but at the end of the day he is brought mainly for his buffing capabilities. Sure he is a beatstick, but every nasty list that has him has him as a countercharge threat, not an offensive one.
We can't kill his units faster than they kills ours, RG double or triples the effectiveness of units in his aura, so we can't afford to ignore him. We are about as tough as SMQ with him killing entire units at a time, but with RGs units will be twice as shooty, if you don't have a plan for him you're doomed before the first dice roll.
thisguyy wrote: Thanks for all the replies on Imotekh. I tried him and he just felt pretty lackluster. Felt he was far to expensive for only 3 shots a turn at 18".
I've got a tournament coming up this Saturday and I'm struggling to figure out how to finish this list. I've got access to pretty much everything except destroyers, what would you guys do? I'm thinking maybe dropping a couple warriors and adding a C'tan, or adding a Ghost Ark to help keep the warriors up. The reason I've split the scarabs into a squad of 6 and two squads of 3 is because we're playing ITC missions so kill points may be drawn. Going up to 4 scarabs doubles their PL.
For your list, you would have to explain the tactics of what each of your unit will be doing? Me personally, you have too many stalkers to accomplish what you are doing. I would drop one for sure and run a sypder to baby sit it along with a unit of scarabs as a meat shield to protect it. The stalker will be a priority for your opponent. You have no answer really for mutli heavy vehicles. sure the Darks can do D3 each but its not enough to take out multi vehicles and control the pace of the game. Getting a C'tan (deciever) will be a great idea and what i would suggest is getting your scarabs to hold up his lines long enough for you to get into position. this will make your Darks abit more valuable as far as thier long range but you will need something more to really put the hurt to your opponent. What else do you ahve access to as far as models goes??
Reason I'm running two stalkers is because generally it's the first thing focused down since it's my force multiplier. If I don't have enough D6 damage stuff I can run the second stalker with gauss as well but I though the particle shredder would be more versatile. The plan is for the Darks and Stalker to take out the biggest highest T threats first and screen them with warriors & scarabs. If they don't have much deep striking/melee running at me I'll just be sending my scarabs up the board to hold objectives and tie things up. Warriors will be walking up the middle & the immortals will hopefully be in cover with the Olord holding down an objective.
If the Darks don't move they're D6 damage at 72" range so I figure 2 of them plus the Stalker is a good starting firebase for removing vehicles. Unfortunately Necrons without FW and destroyers don't have many other options with dealing with vehicles. I like the idea of a Deceiver C'tan giving me lots of flexibility to change up deployment on the matchup. I just don't know what In my list I'd bring up with it.
I've got access to C'tans, wraiths, Ghost Ark, 8 flayed ones, night/doom scythe, Lych Guard, and all the heroes. No FW stuff :(.
thisguyy wrote: Thanks for all the replies on Imotekh. I tried him and he just felt pretty lackluster. Felt he was far to expensive for only 3 shots a turn at 18".
I've got a tournament coming up this Saturday and I'm struggling to figure out how to finish this list. I've got access to pretty much everything except destroyers, what would you guys do? I'm thinking maybe dropping a couple warriors and adding a C'tan, or adding a Ghost Ark to help keep the warriors up. The reason I've split the scarabs into a squad of 6 and two squads of 3 is because we're playing ITC missions so kill points may be drawn. Going up to 4 scarabs doubles their PL.
For your list, you would have to explain the tactics of what each of your unit will be doing? Me personally, you have too many stalkers to accomplish what you are doing. I would drop one for sure and run a sypder to baby sit it along with a unit of scarabs as a meat shield to protect it. The stalker will be a priority for your opponent. You have no answer really for mutli heavy vehicles. sure the Darks can do D3 each but its not enough to take out multi vehicles and control the pace of the game. Getting a C'tan (deciever) will be a great idea and what i would suggest is getting your scarabs to hold up his lines long enough for you to get into position. this will make your Darks abit more valuable as far as thier long range but you will need something more to really put the hurt to your opponent. What else do you ahve access to as far as models goes??
Reason I'm running two stalkers is because generally it's the first thing focused down since it's my force multiplier. If I don't have enough D6 damage stuff I can run the second stalker with gauss as well but I though the particle shredder would be more versatile. The plan is for the Darks and Stalker to take out the biggest highest T threats first and screen them with warriors & scarabs. If they don't have much deep striking/melee running at me I'll just be sending my scarabs up the board to hold objectives and tie things up. Warriors will be walking up the middle & the immortals will hopefully be in cover with the Olord holding down an objective.
If the Darks don't move they're D6 damage at 72" range so I figure 2 of them plus the Stalker is a good starting firebase for removing vehicles. Unfortunately Necrons without FW and destroyers don't have many other options with dealing with vehicles. I like the idea of a Deceiver C'tan giving me lots of flexibility to change up deployment on the matchup. I just don't know what In my list I'd bring up with it.
I've got access to C'tans, wraiths, Ghost Ark, 8 flayed ones, night/doom scythe, Lych Guard, and all the heroes. No FW stuff :(.
Yeah, i can definitely understand the need for the two but i think by dropping one you can find the points needed to fit in that deciever. Doing that here is what i would do. Change your detachment from Battalion to spearhead and outrider. Drop the warrior blobs because they will not hold for long and cannot effectively make a push on the battlefield, sometime the best defense is an offense. Pick up the lynchgaurd get them to 10 man. bring nemesor and obyron. Get your 3 groups of scarabs at 6 man squads, see if you can fit in a couple of barges in there as well. So the idea will be to use the deceivers grand illusion to move nemesor as well as as many scarabs as you can. Dont get too close to the enemy but just enough to let them know you are going to threaten them with obyron and the lynch guard on your turn. With enough luck he wil dedicate some shooting to wipe out the scarabs as try and hurt nemesor then on your turn go to work and get the boys over there lay down some heavy fire with the stalker and Darks, get your barges advancing along with the deciever and start picking out his units. this way you are hitting him on 3 fronts forcing them to answer each threat.
So Warrior bricks are good at surviving, but not that great at killing.
And Immortal squads are decent at killing, but aren't so great at surviving.
Is there really something to the "don't bother bringing either of them" camp?
Does the competitive Necron list consist of just Scarabs and Doomsday Arks with a minor dash of something else for flavor?
(at least until we get a codex)
skoffs wrote: So Warrior bricks are good at surviving, but not that great at killing.
And Immortal squads are decent at killing, but aren't so great at surviving.
Is there really something to the "don't bother bringing either of them" camp?
Does the competitive Necron list consist of just Scarabs and Doomsday Arks with a minor dash of something else for flavor?
(at least until we get a codex)
So in my own experience and many others that i have read on here. The silver tide just doesnt cut it. There is not enough options in High S and High AP weapons that will really make the core units withstand what our opponents will bring. The idea you need to have when list building is your opponent is going first most of the time. So how do you plan for your opponent who will get to shoot at full power at your troops? Give them a target worth shooting at but that you can afford to throw away or that can withstand some heavy shooting. Competitive list right now have scarabs everything else is pretty much up to what kind of build you want to make.
crunkDealer wrote: About girlyman, doesnt zandrekh disable auras of one enemy char per turn or something?
It's a little more nuanced, but yeah. The counter tactics rule goes at the beginning of an enemy turn if The nemesor is within 12" of at least one unit with an aura, he can choose a unit within that range and turn off all of that units auras until the opponent's next turn. The challenge is of course getting within 12" of Girlyman, Deep strike is right out as he is going to be bubble wrapped, and walking across the board is a non-starter. So that leaves deceiver bomb or tomb world deploy via a night scythe. Night scythe is turn two earliest and dropping off a single IC (because only one unit at a time can be deployed) is a sure way to get him murdered. So that leaves deceived bomb and the hope you go first. I've been playing around with the list required to get him in, and I haven't come up with anything that is TAC.
Whats better, Gauss Sentry pylon or 2 HD? HD are more mobile, but unsupported they are a LOT more fragile. Sentry pylon has better range, but is practically immobile.
Hey can someone answer or direct me to the relevant page (bit difficult to trawl through 104) with Monolith deploying assault squads?
I plan to have mine deep strike in, then drop off lychguard next turn. I want to know if after that they can both move and charge or just charge.
As far as I could tell they can mov before charging as they come out of the mono at the beginning of the movement phase, not the end, leaving them with a move. But maybe I'm wrong due to reserve nuances.
As the Monolith and Night Scythe lack the TRANSPORT keyword, via RAW, any unit that arrives from Tomb World deployment counts arriving from reserves (like Deathmarks or Flayed Ones), not disembarking, which counts as having moved, which means they can't move again that turn (note, they CAN charge, though... but it'll be a 9" charge, so not advisable). We're assuming it's a mistake/omission, and REALLY needs to addressed in a FAQ, otherwise both vehicles are practically useless for transporting anything other than shooters.
Oh...that sucks. So I'd be paying ~400 pts to give the Lychguard a deepstrike that is spread over two turns with the monolith.
Well, letting them move would be one way to fix it, but letting the come out the turn the monolith turns up would pretty much just give them a true deepstrike which is not terrible.
But yes, I can't see that being intended, honestly how are lychguard ever supposed to get into combat?
Shame, I was so excited for having fun with monoliths again.
You could hold the monolith back till late game, then deep strike in on an important flank to apply pressure, forcing them to respond, either to pull back or to turn their attention
Aren73 wrote: Oh...that sucks. So I'd be paying ~400 pts to give the Lychguard a deepstrike that is spread over two turns with the monolith.
Well, letting them move would be one way to fix it, but letting the come out the turn the monolith turns up would pretty much just give them a true deepstrike which is not terrible.
But yes, I can't see that being intended, honestly how are lychguard ever supposed to get into combat?
Shame, I was so excited for having fun with monoliths again.
You and me both. I think our transport situation is ridiculous, especially since our movement has been nerfed.
I'm really annoyed that the night scythe doesn't allow units on the table to embark and that the monolith (with it's very high point cost) doesn't allow the eternity gate to teleport already deployed units. It's ALWAYS had that ability and NEVER been this expensive before.
Blueguy203 wrote:So has anyone else reviewed the results of this last tourney B.A.O? Looks like its all about the conscripts and basilisk.
Yeah we'll have to wait for the conscript nerf before things will settle down, otherwise there was a lot of variety in the top tables. Lots of vehicles, still think the pylon will keep us competitive.
skoffs wrote:
Blueguy203 wrote: So has anyone else reviewed the results of this last tourney B.A.O? Looks like its all about the conscripts and basilisk.
So what are the typical Deceiver uses? To me all I can see is possibly setting up a turn two charge (Provided the units survive. Granted adding turn one pressure can be a use as well) or to get something in a turn one rapid fire range. But if there are other, less obvious uses, I'd love to know about them as I want to one a Deceiver in my lists.
Is it just me or does it seem weird that the ctan dont have living metal as a rule? I mean their whole corporeal body is supposed to be made of the stuff. While our HQ should have a body like the rest of the crons, just better.
So my thoughts on the Deciever is that we need to utilize the grand illusion ability with scarabs rather than lynchguard. For one, throwing out there a 300 pt unit with the possibility of no support other than the deciever is to great a risk. Atleast the scarabs will be cheaper and have more wounds (assuming 10 guards vs 9 scarabs). By presenting such a small throw away unit you can then use those scarabs to then tie up those units that you need to tie up and then reposition everything else.
I've been trying out the deceiver not as a bomb all in alpha thing but just as a way to reposition units into cover or out of los and it seems pretty strong. A lot of uses based on the opponent like just putting an immortal unit into cover on a distant flank against orkz now do they take an entire 30 man unit of boyz just to try and chase that down or do they try to continue to march/jump toward your main force and just get shot in the side/back all game by the 1 unit, or against artillery the deceiver himself and a big unit of scarabs can appear along the side of the enemy deployment and between the main army's tesla and a seismic assault maybe open a hole in the screens to get a turn 2 assault in, or just switch from an offensive to a defensive posture or vice versa based on if you or they got seized on, that kind of stuff.
Nagerash wrote: Is it just me or does it seem weird that the ctan dont have living metal as a rule? I mean their whole corporeal body is supposed to be made of the stuff. While our HQ should have a body like the rest of the crons, just better.
Yeah, I don't get that either. And regaining 1 wound per turn hardly seems overpowered.
We could have had a Ynarri win, but he drew against the tau. I don't have the heart to do the math right now, but it looks like our top spot was the lowest among the main armies.
We could have had a Ynarri win, but he drew against the tau. I don't have the heart to do the math right now, but it looks like our top spot was the lowest among the main armies.
Necrons are amazing and my phalanx regularly wins against tournament level lists and opponents (anecdotal evidence of course). But they are a mid table army at best. You can be a terror at your local club but until we get a dex we will be stuck there for the truly competitive.
They simply aren't top table material though because in a tournament you will simply have too many bad matchups which happen to be the current meta.
IG conscript spam like the top 2 lists we have no real counter for. We can only delay or get lucky against Bobby G in any list. Parking lot SM have enough firepower that necron bricks, and thus RP mean nothing. And we suck at dealing with flyers. Look at the top lists and you'll see that is the exact winning meta.
We are actually decent against yannari at least even if it's a small consolation.
buddha wrote: Necrons are amazing and my phalanx regularly wins against tournament level lists and opponents (anecdotal evidence of course). But they are a mid table army at best. You can be a terror at your local club but until we get a dex we will be stuck there for the truly competitive.
They simply aren't top table material though because in a tournament you will simply have too many bad matchups which happen to be the current meta.
IG conscript spam like the top 2 lists we have no real counter for. We can only delay or get lucky against Bobby G in any list. Parking lot SM have enough firepower that necron bricks, and thus RP mean nothing. And we suck at dealing with flyers. Look at the top lists and you'll see that is the exact winning meta.
We are actually decent against yannari at least even if it's a small consolation.
True, Phalanxes dont do well against alot of the top lists, but we DO have enough firepower to deal with flyers and parking lot lists very, very easily. Not only from FW, but our index dakka is very good.
Our only answer to conscripts in their current state is TB w/ scopes, and scarabs. Nothing else comes close to outputting enough damage to neuter the FRFSRF damage. Run 9 blades and scarabs, Rapid fire the blades and charge the scarabs in the same turn, expect to kill a 50 man squad in 1 turn. I know its a terrible amount of points to invest into it, but both these squads can threaten everything else on the board pretty well, so its not that much of a loss.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I personally don't think phalanx's are top table material, especially after the battleshock nerf. But I think if conscripts get adjusted, and vehicle spam/alpha strikes comes back into the meta, we can place very highly. Most lists will be bringing lascannons to deal with tanks, we shrug their damage off while blowing up multiple tanks/flyers a turn. Alpha strike DS lists (scion spam for example) are easily countered by smart deployment and protection of their intended targets. We can get low enough drops to come close to getting first turn alot, and our alpha is brutal, even if we dont take a pylon.
GW has pushed HQ/infantry synergy on top of infantry spam as the way to play, but until our codex comes out, all of our powerful units and combos that are not hilariously cost prohibitive do not require HQ buffs to operate at maximum efficiency. This allows more flexibility in play and tactical choices, as we are not tethered to HQ's that can be sniped out etc.
What do scopes have to do with conscripts? They almost never get a cover bonus with their unit size. Also a regular unbuffed 10 man tesla immortal unit beats 50 conscripts with a commissar taking orders at 13"+ for the same cost it just takes 5 or 6 turns, and we're kind of uniquely qualified to be able to say that about a bread and butter troops choice.
The main problem in that match up is the artillery, we have some solid anti tank stuff now but we aren't great at splitting the damage among like 7 different chassis or getting around the board if they're out of los, while they are uniquely suited to fething quantum shielding or heavy destroyers with fist fulls of d3 damage, or to reach out anywhere on the board and drop the last 3 or 4 models in a unit to deny RP and push those infantry fights out of our favor.
Actinium wrote: What do scopes have to do with conscripts? They almost never get a cover bonus with their unit size. Also a regular unbuffed 10 man tesla immortal unit beats 50 conscripts with a commissar taking orders at 13"+ for the same cost it just takes 5 or 6 turns, and we're kind of uniquely qualified to be able to say that about a bread and butter troops choice.
The main problem in that match up is the artillery, we have some solid anti tank stuff now but we aren't great at splitting the damage among like 7 different chassis or getting around the board if they're out of los, while they are uniquely suited to fething quantum shielding or heavy destroyers with fist fulls of d3 damage, or to reach out anywhere on the board and drop the last 3 or 4 models in a unit to deny RP and push those infantry fights out of our favor.
They almost never get a cover bonus to the full unit but they will get a cover save for lots of them, this negates that, and all of their armour, which rapidly shreds blobs.
If you think 10 tesla immortals will last more than 1 round of shooting vs a conscript blob....... . Mathhammer is okay, but in reality 10 tesla immortals WILL draw fire from the army, and I doubt they will last more than 2 turns. We cannot attrition a infantry based spam guard army, we will be closed to tabled a lot of the time. If necron's cannot win a war of attrition, no one else has a chance.
A couple of our big guns will cripple multiple tanks a turn, taking them down to the lower teirs where their shooting is 90% negated. Then you just move on to the ones at full strength. So long as you deploy correctly to deny scion DS, DDA, stalkers, SPylons, TA, HD's etc will last long enough to do their job. We can cheaply saturate the board with enough long range (out of range/position of their autocannons) High STR multi damage weapons and can shred their backlines very effectively.
I play against conscript/HWT/Scion spam + tanks all the time, its my main opponent. I have never struggled with their tanks at all. My opponent usually takes 6-7 tanks (Flamer tanks, basalisks, wyverns, the multi rocket ones) which is 2 turns of good shooting to neuter. Not kill, but when they're hitting on 6's....
A bigger problem is HWT spam. THAT is impossible to neuter, as there is just too many teams to deal with.
Always focus autocannons when facing guard (hardest counter to QS), dont go near conscripts, focus wyverns/mortar teams first (these do ridiculous damage to our infantry). Guard are an uphill battle, I haven't lost yet against them but a few have been pretty clutch.
Our main problem against guard is displacing conscripts, and HWT. Their tanks are actually some of the weaker units in their army. Theyre in a strange place RN, where their screening chaff does more heavy lifting than the big guns their meant to be protecting.
Klowny wrote: Our only answer to conscripts in their current state is TB w/ scopes, and scarabs. Nothing else comes close to outputting enough damage to neuter the FRFSRF damage. Run 9 blades and scarabs, Rapid fire the blades and charge the scarabs in the same turn, expect to kill a 50 man squad in 1 turn.
Scarabs I understand, but would TBs really be the most optimal gun choice? They seem a little over costed.
Actually, what would our most optimal units be?
Scarabs
Superheavy Pylon
Doomsday Arks
?????
davethepak wrote: I have found the Tesseract Ark to be quite good in a game - its lack of S9 was not as big a deal, as I also had a DDA in the game (as pointed out above, it is an addition, not a replacement for the DDA or Heavy destroyers).
Just one note; it is a bit tricky to build - I suggest building it in components, then painting it, then finally assembly.
I'm starting mine in a little bit, what's tricky about it?
It is a bit difficult to paint assembled (common with many necron vehicles).
Also, the orb assembly of the main weapon is difficult to line up all the parts (mine were warped, that did not help) so it looks good.
On tactics;
Grilyman is indeed a challenge - I have also found a big admech blob to be difficult nut to crack as well (that is a lot of firepower in a very small area). Non-girly marines (pre codex) had been no problem for me, but I have not played against them since the new codex - and wow - the new codex is amazing - some of the chapter tactics are really good - and the stratagems are pretty amazing as well.
I do hope that crons get buffs to many units once we get a codex (or sooner....) but we can't plan for that yet.
I am going to next try out a nightscythe and monolith list - to see if the monolith can distract the other player from paying too much attention to the night scythe - so it can live long enough to deliver some lychguard in some key areas.
(I know the lychguard are not amazing, but I love mine and want to get them on the table - mine are all converted old pariah models).
I also pretty regularly fight a guard player, he's not so big on spamming conscripts but the whole an army vs an army idea of wiping out immortal units is the least applicable to conscripts who are very hard to get inside range all at once compared to the more compact immortals who are regularly getting cover bonuses on top of delivering their full unit size in shots. And they cost the same amount, you can't be drowned in conscript crossfire if you're taking an equal weight of immortals. Plasma scions and earthshaker batteries are what get me, the regular infantry and 2 conscript units are still just flashlights to me at 13"+.
Actinium wrote: I also pretty regularly fight a guard player, he's not so big on spamming conscripts but the whole an army vs an army idea of wiping out immortal units is the least applicable to conscripts who are very hard to get inside range all at once compared to the more compact immortals who are regularly getting cover bonuses on top of delivering their full unit size in shots. And they cost the same amount, you can't be drowned in conscript crossfire if you're taking an equal weight of immortals. Plasma scions and earthshaker batteries are what get me, the regular infantry and 2 conscript units are still just flashlights to me at 13"+.
Yep conscripts out of FRFSRF aren't scary, but ever faced 2 wyverns? Or mortar HWT? All I'm saying is that 10 Immortals in cover isn't that hard to kill, guard don't actually have many good high Str multi damage weapons, but excel at dealing with hordes/infantry. For example, 20 warriors in cover buffed by a GA, lord and cryptek takes on average 1.5 turns to be deleted by my opponent. Hell I've GI 40 warriors into cover with a GA, lord and cryptek and he took 1 round of shooting to kill them all. (It did take his entire armies firepower however).
If your having problems with scions and earthshakers, Try bringing 2x 6 scarab units, you are now able to completely ignore his scions as 12 scarabs have a huge footprint..
Bring some DDA and stalkers and screen them with the scarabs. His backline is now done t2-3 and his scions are useless. Easy counter. But I haven't dealt with earthshakers yet so I cannot verify how effective it is vs them, but if the chassis is similar to the rest of the guard tanks you'll have no problem.
I think it might just be time to accept we are not an average group of players. Our numerous store wins reflect our skill with our faction and the game, but I think seeing the top level results gives us a clear picture of our faction overall. That may seem like a contradiction but it isn't.
Three main factors go into a win, luck, skill, and list. Skill is by far and away the most important of them, even given moderately unequal list, a more skilled player will generally beat a less skilled opponent. As skill levels get closer and closer, list plays a larger factor. when you are in the top few percentiles of skill list becomes the deciding factor.
That's why we can have blow out after blow out at local games, but still have a faction that is subpar. if you are a one in twenty player, your local pool of players isn't deep enough to regularly give you someone close enough in skill that list becomes the most important factor. The fact the factions are much closer in 8th ed in terms of power than they were in 7th ed also broadens the effect of skill, since a bad player can't lean on a decurion or a gladius.
I guess what I'm getting at is even though you might win in local games, maybe we should just accept that for the moment we are 8th ed equivalent of 7th ed orks and plan our competitions accordingly (eg: probably with another army).
Grimgold wrote: I think it might just be time to accept we are not an average group of players. Our numerous store wins reflect our skill with our faction and the game, but I think seeing the top level results gives us a clear picture of our faction overall. That may seem like a contradiction but it isn't.
Three main factors go into a win, luck, skill, and list. Skill is by far and away the most important of them, even given moderately unequal list, a more skilled player will generally beat a less skilled opponent. As skill levels get closer and closer, list plays a larger factor. when you are in the top few percentiles of skill list becomes the deciding factor.
That's why we can have blow out after blow out at local games, but still have a faction that is subpar. if you are a one in twenty player, your local pool of players isn't deep enough to regularly give you someone close enough in skill that list becomes the most important factor. The fact the factions are much closer in 8th ed in terms of power than they were in 7th ed also broadens the effect of skill, since a bad player can't lean on a decurion or a gladius.
I guess what I'm getting at is even though you might win in local games, maybe we should just accept that for the moment we are 8th ed equivalent of 7th ed orks and plan our competitions accordingly (eg: probably with another army).
Sadly, as it stands, I agree with you Grim. We just aren't good at dealing with horde armies, yes we have answers to them, but none are really effective/points efficient. However, if plasma gets adjusted, and conscripts get nerfed to the point they aren't dominating the top tables, the majority of the other top lists at BAO are actually easy to deal with. Most of the rest of the top lists are elite/vehicle spam lists, something that we EXCEL at beating. If the meta shifts to that, necrons suddenly become top teir. QS is a hard counter to these lists, we have very effective long range high damage, high str high rend weapons, and incredibly effective screens in scarabs. We have frontline 5++ TA's, midfield sentry pylons, and backfield DDA/Gauss pylons.
For <1000 points, we can have 4 pylons, and 2 drops.... all of which DS onto the board. Say another 500 in scarabs and HQ's, that leaves you with enough to run 2x DDA and a HD, or 2x TA.
No parking lot, nor Aeladri vehicle spam list will be able to stand up to that much firepower, nor will it be able to bypass enough QS/living metal to quell the onslaught.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'd like to build on what you are saying about list building being critical at top teir. Firstly I agree with your point, and it actually makes the future of comp 40k very interesting.
If the majority of armies are close in power overall, it means GW can dictate/change the meta, enabling much more variety in the top tables, and chances for every army to have their time in the sun. This is a good thing for the game.
Look at Riot and League of Legends as an example. That meta shifts multiple times per year, and the champions that are strong change all the time. On the surface it is a simple game that should have a straightfoward ending, but by adjusting certain champs/concepts, the meta changes so that every few months the games are completely different at the top level.
If this can be replicated in 40k, which it looks like it is moving towards, it will make the game so much better.
Look at what has already happened this year, initially it was stormravens dominating the top tables, now its conscript spam.
Two different meta's in one year, and 8th hasnt even been out for 6 months.
Compare this to 7th. I came in near the end of 7th, after necrons had their time in the sun as the cheese. The only meta I saw was 'can you beat eldar'. Not fun at all.
I know skoffs has threatened to hang people by their toes if they try to turn this into a wish thread, so I'll make a seperate thread about what I think is wrong with Necrons and maybe some additional fixes. If nothing else it will be cathartic, and maybe someone at GW browses this forum. Suffice it to say I think we are weak because of design flaws, stuff like gutting gauss, messing with our teleports, and underwhelming buffs. They could decrease points across the board and that would help, but unless we deal with the design flaws and perverse incentives we will never be functional in this edition.
Grimgold wrote: I know skoffs has threatened to hang people by their toes if they try to turn this into a wish thread, so I'll make a seperate thread about what I think is wrong with Necrons and maybe some additional fixes. If nothing else it will be cathartic, and maybe someone at GW browses this forum. Suffice it to say I think we are weak because of design flaws, stuff like gutting gauss, messing with our teleports, and underwhelming buffs. They could decrease points across the board and that would help, but unless we deal with the design flaws and perverse incentives we will never be functional in this edition.
That sounds good.
I'm sure everyone would like to weigh in on the topic.
(Just might be best to stick it in 40k general discussion, not tactics, so it doesn't throw off new players, eg. "Wtf! I read in that thread that the Monolith was awesome now that it could pull in units from anywhereon the board, but I can't find that part in the index!")
Revised my comp list, still have much time so the constant mullings make me continuously change it. Ill put the list and what ive changed in the spoiler, would appreciate criticisms etc. But outside the spoiler for people who dont care about the list.
I dropped the TA. I felt it was better served floating about shooting stuff midfield than parked back, where its 5++ is wasted due to the pylon already giving it out. But I know how easy the vehicles can be to pop when focused. Mainly I also wanted more TB, and target saturation. Initially I ran 9 TB, and 3+1 Destroyers, but I dropped it to 8 so I could get the extra destroyer for wounds/additional damage. I feel the list is more rounded now, I have 2 offensive scarab units with 2 heavy damaging frontline units that can be screened for smite spam, the mobile part of my army is now super fast, and provides amazing board control. The gunline in the back is still scary as ever. Its super durable, stays very healthy and has a good screen keeping it relatively safe. I can now account for every type of Toughness category, and still deal with hordes very well in addition to popping 2-3 vehicles a turn.
What is the best loadout for TB when on a budget. Im having trouble finding a balance. I want to max out a squad of 8 with scopes and vanes, but then I'm not sure if its worth it over another model with less toys. If its less toys, should a balance of vanes, scopes and looms be appropriate, if so should some get both vanes and looms, or just looms. Im mainly bringing them for their anti infantry capabilities, so the IC I feel will be more valuable than some having a 5++.
Its also way less book-keeping, as I dont have to worry about which ones are which, rolling different for the ones without scopes if/when its applicable etc etc.
I'm having second thoughts on whether Crypteks are worth it. I think I'm very much coming over to the 'just take more warriors' camp.
The thing that's really putting me off is that - unlike Overlords, D. Lords and CCBs - they're abysmal in combat.
The special character Crypteks might be an exception (since they actually bring some melee/ranged ability), but I don't think I'll use a regular Cryptek again
vipoid wrote: I'm having second thoughts on whether Crypteks are worth it. I think I'm very much coming over to the 'just take more warriors' camp.
It is ovious that a profit that cryptek brings to you is depends on an enemie's firepower. The more they ma kill, the more imput a cryptic will give. +1 to protocols means that youll place online half of your silver puppets, that is twice effective that the regular protocol roll. So, speaking of 7 additional warriors instead of a cryptek, they will cover only first 21 wounds you warriors will recieve. After that number (22nd wound and so forth) a regular 5+ protocol much worse than a crypec's boost.
And on the other hand, You need only 14 incoming wounds to before 103 pts of cryptek pays off. So ask yourself, what kind of scenario is more common? When you have only 21 wounds to your warriors per game, or the other one?
And I'm not even speaking about 5+ inv. bubble here..
Klowny wrote: Our only answer to conscripts in their current state is TB w/ scopes, and scarabs. Nothing else comes close to outputting enough damage to neuter the FRFSRF damage. Run 9 blades and scarabs, Rapid fire the blades and charge the scarabs in the same turn, expect to kill a 50 man squad in 1 turn.
Scarabs I understand, but would TBs really be the most optimal gun choice? They seem a little over costed.
Actually, what would our most optimal units be?
Scarabs
Superheavy Pylon
Doomsday Arks
?????
They are expensive, but if you haven't ran them yet skoffs, do yourself a favour. They seriously pull their weight, theyve been star units for me in multiple battles.
Basically, their speed, extra rend on the gauss, and ignores cover ensure that whatever you wound, dies (im talking about conscripts/hordes). They have the speed to position well, RF, charge, then let the scarabs that were right behind them charge in and do the CC work. Yes I know its expensive, but if you have multiple scarab swarms enroaching multiple blobs, you can just hammer at the conscripts very well.
I mean you could GI 40 warriors, but again, the extra rend value makes a huge difference. Heck, even 20 warriors and a deciever is around the same price as 9 TB, and id take the TB any day.
Revised my comp list, still have much time so the constant mullings make me continuously change it. Ill put the list and what ive changed in the spoiler, would appreciate criticisms etc.
Do you not feel that both Destroyers and H.Destroyer are over priced for the damage they do and the shots they can fire?
Normal Ds can only shoot twice per model while Heavy Ds shot 1.Normal Ds are only Strength 5 meaning your only good against infantry units and light tanks/vehicles. Heavy D is S9 and can pretty much hit everything on 3s or 2s but because it is only 1 shoot I dont feel like it is worth the investment.
They are re-rolling 1s to hit which is nice, get RP (although,every time I field Destroyers they are always killed T1 so I never get to RP them which makes the points I put into them feel wasted), have 3 wounds per model, can move 10 inches and fire at full BS is quite good. But, it's their pt cost and lack of either Strong Shots (Destroyers) or lack of shots in general (H.Destroyers) that make me never want to field them. after all the games I had with them being Destroyed T1 and not even doing 1 bit of damage to anything my opponent fields really aches my heart especially since they cost so much to field.
Now, that could be because I am not that good at 40k and don't always position my models well but after 10 games of 8th and all I see is 5 models that cost 327pt always getting Destroyed it makes my faith almost non-existent. It is also harder to get 5 Ds into cover due to there model size and unit size.
If I was you Klowny I would;
Spoiler:
Drop all the Destroyers to get 327pts And put those points in another TB, another scarab and the TA.
I know you got rid of the TA to get more Destroyers and TBs but it can shoot just as good if not better then the Destroyers as the Singularity Chambers second gun profile is the same Strength as Gauss Cannon but with a D 3 wounds not D D3 wounds and it can also shoot 2 Gauss/Tesla Cannons for more dakka.
Sypder can help it get back wounds if needed and it literally has 3 different jobs that it can all do flawlessly.
The only thing you will miss is the Heavy Ds S 9 Weapon but at only 1 shoot per model I do not think it gives it enough reason to stick around. And, the TA strongest gun profile is Heavy D6 S 8 so even tho it's "worse" you do get more dice to roll and potentially more damage could be done.
If you do not want a TA then Id say keep the list as it is as there is not much you can do unless you drop a model to gain a model.
Revised my comp list, still have much time so the constant mullings make me continuously change it. Ill put the list and what ive changed in the spoiler, would appreciate criticisms etc.
Do you not feel that both Destroyers and H.Destroyer are over priced for the damage they do and the shots they can fire?
Normal Ds can only shoot twice per model while Heavy Ds shot 1.Normal Ds are only Strength 5 meaning your only good against infantry units and light tanks/vehicles. Heavy D is S9 and can pretty much hit everything on 3s or 2s but because it is only 1 shoot I dont feel like it is worth the investment.
They are re-rolling 1s to hit which is nice, get RP (although,every time I field Destroyers they are always killed T1 so I never get to RP them which makes the points I put into them feel wasted), have 3 wounds per model, can move 10 inches and fire at full BS is quite good. But, it's their pt cost and lack of either Strong Shots (Destroyers) or lack of shots in general (H.Destroyers) that make me never want to field them. after all the games I had with them being Destroyed T1 and not even doing 1 bit of damage to anything my opponent fields really aches my heart especially since they cost so much to field.
Now, that could be because I am not that good at 40k and don't always position my models well but after 10 games of 8th and all I see is 5 models that cost 327pt always getting Destroyed it makes my faith almost non-existent. It is also harder to get 5 Ds into cover due to there model size and unit size.
If I was you Klowny I would;
Spoiler:
Drop all the Destroyers to get 327pts And put those points in another TB, another scarab and the TA.
I know you got rid of the TA to get more Destroyers and TBs but it can shoot just as good if not better then the Destroyers as the Singularity Chambers second gun profile is the same Strength as Gauss Cannon but with a D 3 wounds not D D3 wounds and it can also shoot 2 Gauss/Tesla Cannons for more dakka.
Sypder can help it get back wounds if needed and it literally has 3 different jobs that it can all do flawlessly.
The only thing you will miss is the Heavy Ds S 9 Weapon but at only 1 shoot per model I do not think it gives it enough reason to stick around. And, the TA strongest gun profile is Heavy D6 S 8 so even tho it's "worse" you do get more dice to roll and potentially more damage could be done.
If you do not want a TA then Id say keep the list as it is as there is not much you can do unless you drop a model to gain a model.
But to get the TA back I need to add in a spearhead detachment, and a lord, taking up points for nothing, as the lord is only for countercharge defence, practically wasting points for most of the game. I figured by dropping the TA, and Lord, and adding in the destroyers, I now have good anti T5, 2+ sv units like terminators. While also still getting another good shot from the H.D, and adding in more anti infantry. A TA, can hurt more models sure, with both its main gun and the tesla.
I dunno, I'm kinda swamped with university starting again, and havent even started building my TA. If i get it done in time I might reconsider making it but I'm not rushing it.
But to get the TA back I need to add in a spearhead detachment, and a lord, taking up points for nothing, as the lord is only for countercharge defence, practically wasting points for most of the game. I figured by dropping the TA, and Lord, and adding in the destroyers, I now have good anti T5, 2+ sv units like terminators. While also still getting another good shot from the H.D, and adding in more anti infantry. A TA, can hurt more models sure, with both its main gun and the tesla.
I dunno, I'm kinda swamped with university starting again, and havent even started building my TA. If i get it done in time I might reconsider making it but I'm not rushing it.
Okay they are very good points. if you are unable to change the list up then keep it as it. It is probably better if you get a few games in using this list and if it doesn't preform like you intented then I would start changing things. I still don't think Destroyers are worth it but for the sake of the list I guess it's better then changing everything up. I just feel like they will be lack-luster in a list like this. If I find a way to list what I said with the rest of your list I'll let you know.
In regards to uni you could proxy a TA against people that don't mind proxies till you have the time to get the TA done? I imagine your study is more important then Warhammer atm
But to get the TA back I need to add in a spearhead detachment, and a lord, taking up points for nothing, as the lord is only for countercharge defence, practically wasting points for most of the game. I figured by dropping the TA, and Lord, and adding in the destroyers, I now have good anti T5, 2+ sv units like terminators. While also still getting another good shot from the H.D, and adding in more anti infantry. A TA, can hurt more models sure, with both its main gun and the tesla.
I dunno, I'm kinda swamped with university starting again, and havent even started building my TA. If i get it done in time I might reconsider making it but I'm not rushing it.
Okay they are very good points. if you are unable to change the list up then keep it as it. It is probably better if you get a few games in using this list and if it doesn't preform like you intented then I would start changing things. I still don't think Destroyers are worth it but for the sake of the list I guess it's better then changing everything up. I just feel like they will be lack-luster in a list like this. If I find a way to list what I said with the rest of your list I'll let you know.
In regards to uni you could proxy a TA against people that don't mind proxies till you have the time to get the TA done? I imagine your study is more important then Warhammer atm
Thanks mate, yea I feel the Destroyers are good for the more elite infantry, while I have the TB and scarabs for the hordes.
Initially I didnt like destroyers, I too found them too expensive for what they offered. Once I got a few games in however, they really do pull their weight.
So, I put 2 lists that you could use Klowny. They both use Lord's as tax but you will get an extra CP which could be used on the Sypder regenerating Scarabs or whatever.
List 1;
Spoiler:
Klowny (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [97 PL, 2000pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Necrons)
Lord of War
(FW) Gauss Pylon
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Necrons)
HQ
Lord
Hyperphase Sword
Heavy Support
(FW) Tesseract Ark
Two Tesla Cannons
2x Tesla Cannon
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
This list is basically what you said earlier, took the Destroyers out and put in a Spearhead Detach, Lord w/Hyperphase Sword, TA, Sypder with GP to deny 1 pysk power and everything else should be the same.
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
For this one I took out Toholk and put in 2 Lord's w/ swords and brought in another Sypder with GP. I know your gonna lose the D3 living Metal plus D3 from the FBC on the Gauss Pylon but with 2 Sypder it will give the Pylon 1 living Metal and D3 wounds back via FBC and you have another Sypder that can FBC the TA or DAD and give you back another Scarab instead of 1. You will also have to chances to deny pysk powers.
Not like the list you made and maybe not as "powerful" or "useful" but it is a way to swap the 4 Destroyers and Heavy for an extra CP, Sypder and choice of HQ.
Again, use your list as you indented but the only I gave you are just other options that might be more useful.
Initially I didnt like destroyers, I too found them too expensive for what they offered. Once I got a few games in however, they really do pull their weight.
well, I wished my Destroyers preformed like yours did
Odrankt wrote: So, I put 2 lists that you could use Klowny. They both use Lord's as tax but you will get an extra CP which could be used on the Sypder regenerating Scarabs or whatever.
List 1;
Spoiler:
Klowny (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [97 PL, 2000pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Necrons)
Lord of War
(FW) Gauss Pylon
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Necrons)
HQ
Lord
Hyperphase Sword
Heavy Support
(FW) Tesseract Ark
Two Tesla Cannons
2x Tesla Cannon
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
This list is basically what you said earlier, took the Destroyers out and put in a Spearhead Detach, Lord w/Hyperphase Sword, TA, Sypder with GP to deny 1 pysk power and everything else should be the same.
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
For this one I took out Toholk and put in 2 Lord's w/ swords and brought in another Sypder with GP. I know your gonna lose the D3 living Metal plus D3 from the FBC on the Gauss Pylon but with 2 Sypder it will give the Pylon 1 living Metal and D3 wounds back via FBC and you have another Sypder that can FBC the TA or DAD and give you back another Scarab instead of 1. You will also have to chances to deny pysk powers.
Not like the list you made and maybe not as "powerful" or "useful" but it is a way to swap the 4 Destroyers and Heavy for an extra CP, Sypder and choice of HQ.
Again, use your list as you indented but the only I gave you are just other options that might be more useful.
Initially I didnt like destroyers, I too found them too expensive for what they offered. Once I got a few games in however, they really do pull their weight.
well, I wished my Destroyers preformed like yours did
Yea list 1 was how i had it before.
Couple of things. Scarabs can only get 1 base back per turn, its worded that way. No matter how many spyders on the board, only 1 back to the unit a turn. It gives redundancy having 2 and more wound regen, but it draws from the offensive power. I want Toholk over lords, as he gives the second regen to vehicles, but also gives me a reroll of failed seizes. Additionally, having it the way I do now also takes my drops down by 1, also giving me more of a chance to go first, as the way the tourney is atm its whoever finishes deploying first goes first.
Its also more wounds on the board, and will draw fire. I'm worried if I saturate the board in vehicles, and the meta is vehicle heavy, there will be lots of lascannon equiv floating about, and another vehicle isnt good for that, whereas if they are shooting those same weapons at destroyers, theyre reducing their output. Destroyers stay at full efficiency until their dead, whereas my unsupported TA thats driving about the midfield wont be regenerating many wounds a turn, staying in its lower teirs for longer.
You shouldn't worry too much about lascannons. Everyone hates QS, because they can't just bring lascannons and deal with any vehicle. If you're facing a lot of Las save a few Cp to deal with any 6s you roll for QS.
I actually like the destroyers quite a bit. Just don't put them in the open when deploying since if you go second, anything with long range (or stormravens) will focus them down. You can hide them behind a wall and move them where needed in your turn. The list looks good. The only thing I worry about is which missions you'll be playing. For Some of them you need infantry (the relic for example) and you only have HQs for that atm.
TB are Def worth the points, and there are quite a few multiwound models around that the destroyers will adore to shoot at, I just don't know how many are used in the meta atm. So it's up to what you like best and what your playstyle is.
Nagerash wrote: You shouldn't worry too much about lascannons. Everyone hates QS, because they can't just bring lascannons and deal with any vehicle. If you're facing a lot of Las save a few Cp to deal with any 6s you roll for QS.
I actually like the destroyers quite a bit. Just don't put them in the open when deploying since if you go second, anything with long range (or stormravens) will focus them down. You can hide them behind a wall and move them where needed in your turn. The list looks good. The only thing I worry about is which missions you'll be playing. For Some of them you need infantry (the relic for example) and you only have HQs for that atm.
TB are Def worth the points, and there are quite a few multiwound models around that the destroyers will adore to shoot at, I just don't know how many are used in the meta atm. So it's up to what you like best and what your playstyle is.
Thanks dude I like this list too. I feel the meta might swing to vehicle spam if conscripts get toned down. The comp im going to is straight book missions, and I'm not sure if the relic is one. Worst case I can just DS the pylon foward of it, and envelop/swarm it with scarabs and my fast stuff.
Got a sisters player who is planning on running scion plasma spam and Celestine + Retibutors in the transport with firing ports. Any suggestions to deal with the alpha strike cheese since its darn near impossible to get away from Celestine?
How has everyone been handling the required 2 HQ's for a Batallion. I feel one overlord is a must paired with MWBD with a tesla immortal squad.
For the second, I'm torn. I'm not completely sold on a cryptek. Are you going with a destroyer lord with some synergy with destroyers or going with a second overlord with more MWBD goodness?
Here's the 2k list I've been toying with for an upcoming tournament this weekend.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: How has everyone been handling the required 2 HQ's for a Batallion. I feel one overlord is a must paired with MWBD with a tesla immortal squad.
For the second, I'm torn. I'm not completely sold on a cryptek. Are you going with a destroyer lord with some synergy with destroyers or going with a second overlord with more MWBD goodness?
With my (admittedly limited) experience so far, I can safely say that I'm really not fond of regular crypteks.
I think I'll be favouring 1 Overlord and 1 D. Lord. However, part of the reason why I'm taking the D. Lord is because I want to use my conversion whenever possible. If I wasn't taking him I could definitely see myself including a second Overlord instead.
About the Tomb Blades. I'm not really seeing any place for them in my army.
With gauss they need to be in rapid fire range to be optimal and that takes them out of their comfort zone.
With tesla three TB's costs more than one A Barge with tesla cannon. The AB has more wounds, QS and higher strength weapons.
BTW, have you guys watched Super Wargamers latest battle report on youtube where he uses Kutlakh with 3 max sized units of Lychguard (2 board and shield, 1WS) and 1 unit of 9 Tomb Blades with gauss. He seems to be a very good Necron player compared to most other battle report Necron players.
Have not seen that, seems interesting though. Will check it out.
Have many people faced tau commander spam this edition? Have a friend running three with missile pods and the -1 ap modifier. It's something like 8 shots per commander, 2+ to hit, s7, -2 ap and d3 damage. With markerlights first they are rerolling ones and often ignoring cover saves. 24 of these shots per turn is just hammering my army, nothing stands up to them. Opponent is smart with blocking deep strike slots around them, and is screening with a ghost keel (-2 to shoot it from outside 12") so you can't target the commanders.
Looking through the army options, I don't see much that can counter them. Last game they killed 5 destroyers in cover, triarch stalker, monolith (in one turn with some help) and about 10 scarab bases. Super strong firebase.
iGuy91 wrote:Got a sisters player who is planning on running scion plasma spam and Celestine + Retibutors in the transport with firing ports. Any suggestions to deal with the alpha strike cheese since its darn near impossible to get away from Celestine?
This ones fairly easy, you need scarabs, and lots of them. I fielded 13 of them last time, it almost took up my entire deployment zone, meaning his scions had to ds WELL away from the stuff they wanted to get to, effectively neutering them for the entire game. I would bring 2x9 squads though, I felt I wanted more that game.
vipoid wrote:
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: How has everyone been handling the required 2 HQ's for a Batallion. I feel one overlord is a must paired with MWBD with a tesla immortal squad.
For the second, I'm torn. I'm not completely sold on a cryptek. Are you going with a destroyer lord with some synergy with destroyers or going with a second overlord with more MWBD goodness?
With my (admittedly limited) experience so far, I can safely say that I'm really not fond of regular crypteks.
I think I'll be favouring 1 Overlord and 1 D. Lord. However, part of the reason why I'm taking the D. Lord is because I want to use my conversion whenever possible. If I wasn't taking him I could definitely see myself including a second Overlord instead.
Yeah, I'm not sold at all on warriors, their damage output is pretty atrocious IMO, nothing like it was in 7th, and 20 of them isn't that hard to blast through, meaning you aren't getting RP at all most of the time, and the 5++ almost never comes into play, making the cryptek almost useless. A second O/Lord is good if you want to double down on immortals, or a D/Lord with Res orb is a good buff for your destroyers. The named crypteks are better if you want to stick with the warriors however, szerath is good for multiple infantry squads.
Cmdr_Sune wrote:About the Tomb Blades. I'm not really seeing any place for them in my army.
With gauss they need to be in rapid fire range to be optimal and that takes them out of their comfort zone.
With tesla three TB's costs more than one A Barge with tesla cannon. The AB has more wounds, QS and higher strength weapons.
BTW, have you guys watched Super Wargamers latest battle report on youtube where he uses Kutlakh with 3 max sized units of Lychguard (2 board and shield, 1WS) and 1 unit of 9 Tomb Blades with gauss. He seems to be a very good Necron player compared to most other battle report Necron players.
Have you tried out the TB's? I was also taken back at their points cost initially, but after running them a few times, they are worth it. They are our primary anti horde infantry killers this edition, same as flayed ones but much, much more versatile/fast/durable. Run them with scarabs for a nasty 1-2 combo. We play with a lot of terrain normally, so the nebuloscopes are phenomenal. Ive wiped a 30 man strong boyz squad in one volley of gauss, them and a scarab squad will wipe a 50 man conscript blob in 1 round. I haven't run the tesla yet, math says they get a ridiculous amount of shots, I prefer the good rend, coupled with the ignores cover. Theyre fast, fairly durable (I've had 2x6 man squads survive a whole round of focused shooting from an entire AdMech army). They are just, very expensive. I feel they are more appropriately cosed vs 7th (criminally undercosted then) but I feel theyve gone too far the other way now, a kitted out squad shouldnt cost 1/4 of a 2k army. Maybe if you could take them in squads of 12 I'd be happy to pay 500 points, but currently you have to be very smart with how you play them as its a large points investment.
buddha wrote: Necrons are amazing and my phalanx regularly wins against tournament level lists and opponents (anecdotal evidence of course). But they are a mid table army at best. You can be a terror at your local club but until we get a dex we will be stuck there for the truly competitive.
They simply aren't top table material though because in a tournament you will simply have too many bad matchups which happen to be the current meta.
IG conscript spam like the top 2 lists we have no real counter for. We can only delay or get lucky against Bobby G in any list. Parking lot SM have enough firepower that necron bricks, and thus RP mean nothing. And we suck at dealing with flyers. Look at the top lists and you'll see that is the exact winning meta.
We are actually decent against yannari at least even if it's a small consolation.
Tesla immortals are an easy answer to conscript hordes. Unfortunately, they lack against alot of other things not having AP.
cheesedupree wrote: Have not seen that, seems interesting though. Will check it out.
Have many people faced tau commander spam this edition? Have a friend running three with missile pods and the -1 ap modifier. It's something like 8 shots per commander, 2+ to hit, s7, -2 ap and d3 damage. With markerlights first they are rerolling ones and often ignoring cover saves. 24 of these shots per turn is just hammering my army, nothing stands up to them. Opponent is smart with blocking deep strike slots around them, and is screening with a ghost keel (-2 to shoot it from outside 12") so you can't target the commanders.
Looking through the army options, I don't see much that can counter them. Last game they killed 5 destroyers in cover, triarch stalker, monolith (in one turn with some help) and about 10 scarab bases. Super strong firebase.
My advice would be, just wait till he gets bored of Tau and moves onto something else.
cheesedupree wrote: Have not seen that, seems interesting though. Will check it out.
Have many people faced tau commander spam this edition? Have a friend running three with missile pods and the -1 ap modifier. It's something like 8 shots per commander, 2+ to hit, s7, -2 ap and d3 damage. With markerlights first they are rerolling ones and often ignoring cover saves. 24 of these shots per turn is just hammering my army, nothing stands up to them. Opponent is smart with blocking deep strike slots around them, and is screening with a ghost keel (-2 to shoot it from outside 12") so you can't target the commanders.
Looking through the army options, I don't see much that can counter them. Last game they killed 5 destroyers in cover, triarch stalker, monolith (in one turn with some help) and about 10 scarab bases. Super strong firebase.
Damn that sounds scary.... Haven't faced any tau yet this edition. But I hope they didn't kill that whole list in one turn. That would be slightly worrying. But how many hqs did he field?
I get the idea there are a lot of cheese lists out there, we might need a grading system... Gouda, brie, camembert, Rochford. Something like that
Nah not one turn, that list was in order. Destroyers one turn, stalker the next, monolith the following and finally the scarabs. The character keyword makes it brutal, you can't shoot them back. And the ghost keel being the thing you need to remove to shoot them, makes it doubley worse. Smite seems to be the way to kill it, which doesn't really help us
Yeah, I'm not sold at all on warriors, their damage output is pretty atrocious IMO, nothing like it was in 7th, and 20 of them isn't that hard to blast through, meaning you aren't getting RP at all most of the time, and the 5++ almost never comes into play, making the cryptek almost useless.
It seems that if you're running Warriors you really have to go all-in. So 2 squads of 20, a Cryptek, Ghost Arks, maybe a Lord with the new Morale/RP rules.
Now, maybe that works but it's too many eggs in one basket for my tastes. It's also of little use to me because I don't own any Ghost Arks and don't have enough Warriors for 2 maximum squads.
Also, I agree that their firepower is lacklustre. In 7th they had the edge over Immortals because both were wounding most vehicles on 6s, but the Warriors had more shots. Now though, Immortals can pump out a ton of shots with Tesla (especially with MWBD) or shred armour with S5 AP-2 Gauss. Even against vehicles, wounding T8-9 on 5s (compared to 6s for Warriors) and reducing their armour by 2 more than makes up for the difference in numbers.
Klowny wrote: A second O/Lord is good if you want to double down on immortals, or a D/Lord with Res orb is a good buff for your destroyers.
I think Overlords have a much better buff but D. Lords are a bit tougher, a little better in combat and also much more mobile.
Hi everyone,
I will play a match vs. my friend and he has a big Dark Angel gunline. His army and tactic is,
-Azrael in the middle (His buff has 6" range, +4 invul and reroll to hit to all Dark Angels)
-Inside 6" bubble, he adds 2 ven.dreadnought, 2 land speeder, 1 dark shroud (-1 hit to enemy if targeted anything around 6"), 1 land raider, 1 sammael w/sabreclaw
-Inside land raider, Asmodai, 4x Deathwing Knights and 1 DK champion deployed.
-Dark talon
Mainly, he has a good firepower (autocannons hurts us a lot) and has good answers if you come to close range. I really can't find a good answer to this.
I am thinking the list below.
-Imotekh (For melting dark shroud and hopefully others first turn)
-Triarch stalker (with particle caster)
-C'tan Deceiver
-Doomsday ark x2
-Monolith x2
-Doom Scythe
Total-1999 points
Plan is simple, teleport stalker and imotekh with c'tan, guard characters between monoliths and harass with arks and scythe.
Main reason i bring 2 monolith is countering autocannons, he will probably play around quantum shielding.
I'm very curious how two monoliths work. If you're sure they will mainly bring autocannons they will probably do ok,although that's a lot of firepower on his side. I would switch the doom scythe for something else though (TA maybe?) and you don't need the stalker up close if he doesn't have the melta weapon. And the decieve seems kind of wasted there. although I get the one two combo with the ctan and the DS monoliths, I would exchange the decieve for something else since you don't get a big payout from his ability.
You're also wasting a lot of points on Imotek of you don't use any of his abilities apart from the lord of the storm. While FO might not be ideal vs that list, having some Warscythe Lychguard might do pretty well vs some of those tanks (not as good as they used to, but better than anything else we have in cc) add a few Scarabs to soak some overwatch and for extra attacks and you could do pretty well.
A (Sentry) pylon is also always a good idea vs these things and for countering anything that flies.
First off, I've never been fond of the idea of tailoring your list against a specific enemy list.
That aside, I'm confused about what your plan actually is:
- You say that you're going to teleport Imotekh and the Stalker with the C'tan. Okay, but to what end?
- You say that Imotekh is there to 'hopefully melt the Darkshroud and others first turn'. How? Lord of the Storm is literally incapable of melting it even with the maximum possible roll, and his staff isn't likely to do much either.
What's more, you're against an army that's incredibly resilient to shooting and which has a 4++ to deflect high-power shots. Your solution is to use a lot of high-power shots.
If I was going against that sort of army, I'd consider one of two strategies:
1) C'tan/monolith/melee. Basically, use that trick to get a pile of melee units (possibly Warscythe Lychguard) into melee with the enemy on your first turn. His army wants to be relatively compact (because of Azrael's aura), so getting multi-charges should be easy. He doesn't have many units, so even if you don't kill everything you charge you can still make them unable to shoot you in his subsequent turn. What's more, killing the Darkshroud by this method will leave his army more vulnerable to shooting from the rest of your army.
I'm not too fond of this plan, as it always comes across as a little gimmicky to me. However, you've already got most of the pieces for it and your enemy seems relatively vulnerable to melee, so it's a real possibility.
2) Silver Tide. As above, your opponent doesn't have many models so drowning him in bodies is a real possibility. Autocannons might be a serious threat to our ~150-200pt vehicles, but 12-17pt Warriors and Immortals laugh at them (he's only wounding you on 3s and you still get a decent save).
The 4++ is largely irrelevant to both Warriors and Immortals, their Chapter Tactic can be ignored if you advance into your optimum range and the Darkshroud can be mitigated by using MWBD.
At the extreme end, you could have 3 Overlords and 140 Warriors or 4 Overlords and 90 Immortals at 2000pts. Let's be honest - there is just no way he is going to kill that many of either. His army just doesn't have the weight of fire.
Now, I appreciate that this might not be possible. The point is though, I'd definitely go for a 'quantity over quality' approach. Trust me: I'm an IG player.
So the nightbringer and Praetorians rush forward to assist where ever the ds squad lands and the stalker walks into position to offer assistance (hopefully not too isolated)
Imotekh walks out T 2 to give reroll his buff to the FO and possibly in a position to MWBD either the Praetorians or FO T3.
It's not ideal to lose 2 turns of MWBD, but it's better than a barge lord (and more fluffy which I'm going for).
Nagerash - I like to base my lists on Necrons going to war with the C'tan. The "rebellious Necrons". Which mostly means very little canoptek, good amount of warriors and immortals, doomsday arks, tesseract arks, no flayed ones, no shards.
I adore the whole fluff of the war in heaven, it's what makes the Necrons interesting to me.
Nagerash wrote: I made a fun DS list. As well btw. It's (probably) not very competitive, but would be great fun to try out. So the theme is fast units and DS
So the nightbringer and Praetorians rush forward to assist where ever the ds squad lands and the stalker walks into position to offer assistance (hopefully not too isolated)
Imotekh walks out T 2 to give reroll his buff to the FO and possibly in a position to MWBD either the Praetorians or FO T3.
It's not ideal to lose 2 turns of MWBD, but it's better than a barge lord (and more fluffy which I'm going for).
Anyone else likes to make themed armies/lists?
The list im playing with is mostly for fun, 'surprise!' List.
CCB Cryptek
Cryptek
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Warriors
10 Rod Praetorians
Deciever
Nightbringer
Nightscythe
Ghost Ark
The Deciever pulls the Nightbringer and something to hide behind with him while the rest moves up. Probably wont win against anything serious, but it will be a nice change from Marines.
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Necrons) [24 PL, 475pts] ++ + Lord of War + (FW) Gauss Pylon [24 PL, 475pts]
-is a competitive build?
I couldn't say. I'm sure it could do well vs several lists, but it wouldn't be any fun to play with or against imo. Also why 1524 points? I'm also not sure how this list will do against hordes.
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Necrons) [24 PL, 475pts] ++ + Lord of War + (FW) Gauss Pylon [24 PL, 475pts]
-is a competitive build?
Challange accepted and i raise you this list. you have 232 pts to pretty much play with, you can bring in either the Deciever to start placing scarabs on objective or rushing the opponent ro nightbringer to bring on the pain. The idea is to have all 4 pylons drop near enemies unit and shoot the crap out of them, if you can get within half range you are maximizing damage output per each one.
Sentry pylons lack QS, have less wounds and range, the flayer arrays and mobility (even though when you move the arks you lose damage). I feel even a DDA spam list lacks enough horde killing power, and if your moving to get the flayed arrays you lose the big gun. If you want a vehicle only spam list it has to be the TA's, they have the most versatile weaponry, best save etc.
We have a 58% chance of losing and a 41% chance of winning, orks are 47% for both while T'au have a 40% chance of winning but only a 52% chance of losing and a 7% chance of a draw.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I glanced through, and Tau, Ork and Spacewolves seem to be in the same area?
It only looks that way if you're only looking at the win percentages. Look on the overall section and there's a row that shows sum. I think this is what you should look at but I'm not sure
I think the sum takes into account the different variables more than just the win loss tie percentages
They seem fairly resilient to small-arms fire, but it seems that any stronger weapons just shred them. Their offensive output isn't awful, but does seem lacking. They don't have the weight of shots to threaten infantry (even MEQ), nor the strength to be a major threat to vehicles or even bikes (to get some use out of d3 damage). What's more, the Destroyer Lord buff just doesn't seem significant.
In essence, it's hard to find targets that I'm not either overkilling or struggling to wound. And, they just don't seem resilient enough to return fire (and lack the range to avoid it).
Have you guys had them perform better? If so, do you have any tips for me?
I found in low point games 1000-1500 Stalkers were my champs. Without a base they can find cover easy by crawling on things and they are ok in close combat. Just getting a vehicle in the the lowest teir pretty much cripples it. I Just hit the thing the threatens the stalkers the most with the Heat Ray or Heavy G then fly up my Tomb Blades into rapid fire and ether kill it or cripple it. So far got a 5 game winning streak in 1000 point games.
They seem fairly resilient to small-arms fire, but it seems that any stronger weapons just shred them. Their offensive output isn't awful, but does seem lacking. They don't have the weight of shots to threaten infantry (even MEQ), nor the strength to be a major threat to vehicles or even bikes (to get some use out of d3 damage). What's more, the Destroyer Lord buff just doesn't seem significant.
In essence, it's hard to find targets that I'm not either overkilling or struggling to wound. And, they just don't seem resilient enough to return fire (and lack the range to avoid it).
Have you guys had them perform better? If so, do you have any tips for me?
Just finished two games today with 2 units of three Heavy Destroyers in my list. In both matches I faced vehicle heavy lists.
In the first match against Chaos both of my units were destroyed by a Knight in a single shooting phase. I shot first with all six of them an only managed to do 3 wounds .
In the second game they killed one Dreadnought and died to shooting from two Predators. This was bad placement from my part.
I've used them before and they have usually been focus fired to death in the same manner.
The way to use them is to use line blocking terrain and focus fire on one vehicle at a time in such a position than nothing else can hit them. Then move on to the next target. The most important part here is to not always shoot at the juciest target, but the safest from your point of view. This requires careful deployment, movement and a lot of patience. Also make sure to have other threats to the opponent.
I also had 10 Praetorians in these games. They underperformed heavily against vehicle heavy armies with a few dreads. I'm sure they are great against some other armies, but 350 points are a lot.
I was about to say Toholk is mandatory if taking a Superheavy Pylon, but then I thought about it a little more.
He costs 165 points. Only one of his abilities will effect the Pylon, the others are useless unless your list includes a lot of Warriors (which, if we've come to a consensus, isn't the best build).
For 3 points more you could get TWO Spyders with Fab.Claws. That would potentially give you significantly more wounds back. Plus, if you're playing a lot of Scarabs (which I think we've all agreed is a good idea) they would have benefit (plus the potential for psychic defense).
The difference would be that once Toholk gives his buff to the Pylon he can be forgotten. The Spyders would need to be next to the Pylon to give it any help, and if killed the Pylon is vulnerable.
On the other hand, if you've got any other vehicles near the Pylon (eg. Doomsday Arks) the Spyders can benefit them as well.
But you're going to need an HQ no matter what, so it might as well be Toholk if you're taking a Pylon, right?
skoffs wrote: I was about to say Toholk is mandatory if taking a Superheavy Pylon, but then I thought about it a little more.
He costs 165 points. Only one of his abilities will effect the Pylon, the others are useless unless your list includes a lot of Warriors (which, if we've come to a consensus, isn't the best build).
For 3 points more you could get TWO Spyders with Fab.Claws. That would potentially give you significantly more wounds back. Plus, if you're playing a lot of Scarabs (which I think we've all agreed is a good idea) they would have benefit (plus the potential for psychic defense).
The difference would be that once Toholk gives his buff to the Pylon he can be forgotten. The Spyders would need to be next to the Pylon to give it any help, and if killed the Pylon is vulnerable.
On the other hand, if you've got any other vehicles near the Pylon (eg. Doomsday Arks) the Spyders can benefit them as well.
But you're going to need an HQ no matter what, so it might as well be Toholk if you're taking a Pylon, right?
Ugh, I don't know.
What you think?
He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list, as no other HQ's affect vehicles in any way. He also reroll a seizes, which is handy in a vehicle heavy list as they tend to skew towards an alpha strike. Finally his weaponry is pretty good.
Klowny wrote: He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list
But he can only affect a single vehicle. Surely a vehicle HEAVY list would want something that can help many vehicles rather than a single one?
(if it was a bubble effect that'd be a completely different story all together).
Klowny wrote: He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list
But he can only affect a single vehicle. Surely a vehicle HEAVY list would want something that can help many vehicles rather than a single one?
(if it was a bubble effect that'd be a completely different story all together).
Then what HQ would serve a vehicle heavy list better?
Klowny wrote: He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list
But he can only affect a single vehicle. Surely a vehicle HEAVY list would want something that can help many vehicles rather than a single one?
(if it was a bubble effect that'd be a completely different story all together).
Then what HQ would serve a vehicle heavy list better?
I think a CCB w/ SoL and Tesla and/or Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe and Phylactery suit Heavy lists because the CCB can CW the D Lord to give him 2+ advance, charge and to hit with the D lords re-rolling ones, keep up with the D Lord as well. The D Lord can then act as a Beatstick and if it takes any wounds it can heal D3. Have them followed by a unit of 9 Scarabs or 2 units of 6 to make sure they cannot be targeted by enemy units or be subject to something like smite.
Or, play the CCB on its own with the Gauss Cannon and hold it back with maybe a unit of Immortals with Tesla.
Klowny wrote: He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list
But he can only affect a single vehicle. Surely a vehicle HEAVY list would want something that can help many vehicles rather than a single one?
(if it was a bubble effect that'd be a completely different story all together).
Then what HQ would serve a vehicle heavy list better?
I get what you're saying, but it feels more like you'd need to take him if there's a SPECIFIC vehicle you want to keep alive (eg. Superheavy Pylon). If you're spamming vehicles, he doesn't really seem to be that requisite, as you should have plenty of redundancy built into your list already.
By the way, how are you guys finding the Destroyer Lord?
I liked him initially, but on testing he seems very expensive for what he brings. I tried him with a Staff of Light and while it wasn't completely awful, I couldn't help but think that he just wasn't worth the price. For a unit with such a pitiful buff, I'd expect much more than a few S5 AP-2 D1 shots/attacks.
I don't know, he just feels like he's either missing a buff or else missing out on some offensive power.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: The way to use them is to use line blocking terrain and focus fire on one vehicle at a time in such a position than nothing else can hit them. Then move on to the next target. The most important part here is to not always shoot at the juciest target, but the safest from your point of view. This requires careful deployment, movement and a lot of patience. Also make sure to have other threats to the opponent.
I get what you're saying, but with just 24" of range it's very hard to find a piece of suitable terrain (usually it'll either leave you out of range or else leave you completely exposed if you try to leave it). What's more, it seems very difficult to get LoS from the entire Destroyer squad to the target vehicle, without exposing even a single member to fire from any other source.
Oh well, I'll give it a go next time I used Destroyers, though honestly my last few games has caused my enthusiasm for Necrons to wane considerably.
Spyders aren't really redundancy, as they're easily killed. They will be focused in a list that spams scarabs and vehicles, as they are lynchpin buffing units. Either way, a CCB or D/Lord just dont put out enough offensive power to warrant their points investment in a vehicle heavy list. If your only CC threats are a warlord, any scary CC units your opponent has will be pointed straight at it.
vipoid wrote: By the way, how are you guys finding the Destroyer Lord?
I liked him initially, but on testing he seems very expensive for what he brings. I tried him with a Staff of Light and while it wasn't completely awful, I couldn't help but think that he just wasn't worth the price. For a unit with such a pitiful buff, I'd expect much more than a few S5 AP-2 D1 shots/attacks.
I don't know, he just feels like he's either missing a buff or else missing out on some offensive power.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: The way to use them is to use line blocking terrain and focus fire on one vehicle at a time in such a position than nothing else can hit them. Then move on to the next target. The most important part here is to not always shoot at the juciest target, but the safest from your point of view. This requires careful deployment, movement and a lot of patience. Also make sure to have other threats to the opponent.
I get what you're saying, but with just 24" of range it's very hard to find a piece of suitable terrain (usually it'll either leave you out of range or else leave you completely exposed if you try to leave it). What's more, it seems very difficult to get LoS from the entire Destroyer squad to the target vehicle, without exposing even a single member to fire from any other source.
Oh well, I'll give it a go next time I used Destroyers, though honestly my last few games has caused my enthusiasm for Necrons to wane considerably.
Don't worry. Based on what has happened so far our codex will have massive point cuts across the board and some insane dynasty benefits. Gotta sell those books.
vipoid wrote: By the way, how are you guys finding the Destroyer Lord?
I liked him initially, but on testing he seems very expensive for what he brings. I tried him with a Staff of Light and while it wasn't completely awful, I couldn't help but think that he just wasn't worth the price. For a unit with such a pitiful buff, I'd expect much more than a few S5 AP-2 D1 shots/attacks.
I don't know, he just feels like he's either missing a buff or else missing out on some offensive power.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: The way to use them is to use line blocking terrain and focus fire on one vehicle at a time in such a position than nothing else can hit them. Then move on to the next target. The most important part here is to not always shoot at the juciest target, but the safest from your point of view. This requires careful deployment, movement and a lot of patience. Also make sure to have other threats to the opponent.
I get what you're saying, but with just 24" of range it's very hard to find a piece of suitable terrain (usually it'll either leave you out of range or else leave you completely exposed if you try to leave it). What's more, it seems very difficult to get LoS from the entire Destroyer squad to the target vehicle, without exposing even a single member to fire from any other source.
Oh well, I'll give it a go next time I used Destroyers, though honestly my last few games has caused my enthusiasm for Necrons to wane considerably.
The issue is you're using a Staff Of Light. I'm ultra aggressive with him so I stuck with the Warscythe. I don't care about buffing Destroyers with him because they're okay as is (and I'm expecting a price cut based off the new Codices that have been released), and they need someone that can tackle melee.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The issue is you're using a Staff Of Light. I'm ultra aggressive with him so I stuck with the Warscythe. I don't care about buffing Destroyers with him because they're okay as is (and I'm expecting a price cut based off the new Codices that have been released), and they need someone that can tackle melee.
I've tried him with both. Even with a Warscythe I don't find him remotely impressive.
As a question though, how do you use yours? You say that you don't bother with his Destroyer buff so what do you put him with?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The issue is you're using a Staff Of Light. I'm ultra aggressive with him so I stuck with the Warscythe. I don't care about buffing Destroyers with him because they're okay as is (and I'm expecting a price cut based off the new Codices that have been released), and they need someone that can tackle melee.
I've tried him with both. Even with a Warscythe I don't find him remotely impressive.
As a question though, how do you use yours? You say that you don't bother with his Destroyer buff so what do you put him with?
I'm running him up with Scarabs. Lots and lots of Scarabs. I'm even borrowing Scarabs.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The issue is you're using a Staff Of Light. I'm ultra aggressive with him so I stuck with the Warscythe. I don't care about buffing Destroyers with him because they're okay as is (and I'm expecting a price cut based off the new Codices that have been released), and they need someone that can tackle melee.
I've tried him with both. Even with a Warscythe I don't find him remotely impressive.
As a question though, how do you use yours? You say that you don't bother with his Destroyer buff so what do you put him with?
I'm running him up with Scarabs. Lots and lots of Scarabs. I'm even borrowing Scarabs.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The issue is you're using a Staff Of Light. I'm ultra aggressive with him so I stuck with the Warscythe. I don't care about buffing Destroyers with him because they're okay as is (and I'm expecting a price cut based off the new Codices that have been released), and they need someone that can tackle melee.
I've tried him with both. Even with a Warscythe I don't find him remotely impressive.
As a question though, how do you use yours? You say that you don't bother with his Destroyer buff so what do you put him with?
I'm running him up with Scarabs. Lots and lots of Scarabs. I'm even borrowing Scarabs.
Here is some hope for us to chew on.
All the point changes in the chaos book:
Spoiler:
Codex CSM points changes:
Weapons
Baleflamer: down to 30 from 60
Blastmaster: down to 20 from 28
Hades Autocannon: down to 25 from 33
Reaper Autocannon: down to 15 from 18
Soulreaper Cannon: down to 15 from 20
Demonic axe: down to 10 from 45
Hellforged sword: down to 10 from 42
Lightning claws: down to 8/12 from 9/13
Plaguesword: down to 1 from 3
Power fist: down to 12 from 20
Models
Chaos Bikers: down to 25 from 31
Chaos Cultists: down to 4 from 5
Terminator Lord: down to 105 from 122
Chaos Predator: down to 90 from 102
Chaos Vindicator: down to 135 from 160
Defiler: down to 152 from 216
Khorne Lord of Skulls: down to 365 from 465
Maulerfiend down to 140 from 149
Mutilators: down to 50 from 65
Noise Marines: down to 15 from 16
Plague Marines: down to 19 from 21
Warpsmith: down to 45 from 78
Abbadon: down to 240 from 253
Kharn the Betrayer: down to 160 from 173
Plaguebearers, Daemonettes and Bloodletters: down to 7 from 9
Brimstone Horrors: up to 3 from 2
Pink Horrors down to 8 from 10
Nice, it would make sense from a designer's point of view to start out with expensive units and then loosen the grip as the true performance of them is revealed. Only sucks to be one of the last to have a codex.
My plan is to set everything bunched up in the center and switch the flank to where I can inflict the most damage.
Lychguard and Praetorian have a great tendency to not get wiped on a 10-man squad, so they can just keep coming back via RP.
If I get 1 redeploy, I redeploy Deceiver + Praetorians in such a way I can get a charge but daisy chain back to Anarkyr.
If I get 2 redeploy I put Anarkyr and the Lychguard forward, daisy chaining back to Orikan.
If I get 3 redeploy I put Lychguard, Anarkyr and Orikan up front and everything should follow behind.
Anarkyr can MWBD on the Praetorians and the Barge can MWBD the Lychguard. With the extra attack from Anarkyer and hitting on 2+ this should be a brutal assault. I just have to watch not to get tarpitted, but that's why I have CCB + Praetorians that can still disengage and shoot while the scarabs can run back in to tie the enemy and lock them down.
I don't own as many scarabs as I wish and that's why I'm using a filler Tomb Blade unit. Everything but Anarkyr, Orikan and the Lychguard are truly footslogging and I have plenty of charges to make.
What do you guys think? I know that some things in there will evaporate turn 1 but I hope I still have enough standing to stand strong even if I lose the initiative.
Pyrothem wrote: Here is some hope for us to chew on.
All the point changes in the chaos book:
Spoiler:
Codex CSM points changes:
Weapons
Baleflamer: down to 30 from 60
Blastmaster: down to 20 from 28
Hades Autocannon: down to 25 from 33
Reaper Autocannon: down to 15 from 18
Soulreaper Cannon: down to 15 from 20
Demonic axe: down to 10 from 45
Hellforged sword: down to 10 from 42
Lightning claws: down to 8/12 from 9/13
Plaguesword: down to 1 from 3
Power fist: down to 12 from 20
Models
Chaos Bikers: down to 25 from 31
Chaos Cultists: down to 4 from 5
Terminator Lord: down to 105 from 122
Chaos Predator: down to 90 from 102
Chaos Vindicator: down to 135 from 160
Defiler: down to 152 from 216
Khorne Lord of Skulls: down to 365 from 465
Maulerfiend down to 140 from 149
Mutilators: down to 50 from 65
Noise Marines: down to 15 from 16
Plague Marines: down to 19 from 21
Warpsmith: down to 45 from 78
Abbadon: down to 240 from 253
Kharn the Betrayer: down to 160 from 173
Plaguebearers, Daemonettes and Bloodletters: down to 7 from 9
Brimstone Horrors: up to 3 from 2
Pink Horrors down to 8 from 10
That looks pretty cool.
Was it just a points balancing, or did they actually change any of the stats and abilities as well?
Pyrothem wrote: Here is some hope for us to chew on.
All the point changes in the chaos book:
Spoiler:
Codex CSM points changes:
Weapons
Baleflamer: down to 30 from 60
Blastmaster: down to 20 from 28
Hades Autocannon: down to 25 from 33
Reaper Autocannon: down to 15 from 18
Soulreaper Cannon: down to 15 from 20
Demonic axe: down to 10 from 45
Hellforged sword: down to 10 from 42
Lightning claws: down to 8/12 from 9/13
Plaguesword: down to 1 from 3
Power fist: down to 12 from 20
Models
Chaos Bikers: down to 25 from 31
Chaos Cultists: down to 4 from 5
Terminator Lord: down to 105 from 122
Chaos Predator: down to 90 from 102
Chaos Vindicator: down to 135 from 160
Defiler: down to 152 from 216
Khorne Lord of Skulls: down to 365 from 465
Maulerfiend down to 140 from 149
Mutilators: down to 50 from 65
Noise Marines: down to 15 from 16
Plague Marines: down to 19 from 21
Warpsmith: down to 45 from 78
Abbadon: down to 240 from 253
Kharn the Betrayer: down to 160 from 173
Plaguebearers, Daemonettes and Bloodletters: down to 7 from 9
Brimstone Horrors: up to 3 from 2
Pink Horrors down to 8 from 10
That looks pretty cool.
Was it just a points balancing, or did they actually change any of the stats and abilities as well?
That is some good news. While I think necrons are solid, I also think they could use a LOT of tweaks.
I hope faq's will make some adjustments (like clarification on the monolith and night scythe being treated like transports for disembarking).
I get a lot of enjoyment out of the crons, and have to say overall its a good book, as I don't see any specific list dominating the threads - sure, some units are avoided a bit (destroyers are cool but over costed, and wraiths are good, but get killed by smite too easy, etc.) but overall the crons can be a lot of fun.
The biggest change I really want - many armies suffer from - its the random shots and random damage. Its just brutal. The DDA getting d3 shots is painful. I would rather just have 2, so I could count on it. On the random damage, I think they need to make a minimum damage (similar to the neutron laser for the dune crawlers) depending on the STR of the weapon.
Anyway - the tip about the destroyer lord and scarabs - have to give that a try.
deltaKshatriya wrote: I haven't been following the thread, so I'm curious what the general consensus is on Necrons.
Are they better or worse than 7th?
What units seem to really shine?
Which ones not so much?
Keep it at 1000 points if you want to have a game that might go your way. Any higher and a competent list builder will blow you off the board. After trying things and playing 20+ games I am sticking to low point games till the codex comes out.
My plan is to set everything bunched up in the center and switch the flank to where I can inflict the most damage.
Lychguard and Praetorian have a great tendency to not get wiped on a 10-man squad, so they can just keep coming back via RP.
If I get 1 redeploy, I redeploy Deceiver + Praetorians in such a way I can get a charge but daisy chain back to Anarkyr.
If I get 2 redeploy I put Anarkyr and the Lychguard forward, daisy chaining back to Orikan.
If I get 3 redeploy I put Lychguard, Anarkyr and Orikan up front and everything should follow behind.
Anarkyr can MWBD on the Praetorians and the Barge can MWBD the Lychguard. With the extra attack from Anarkyer and hitting on 2+ this should be a brutal assault. I just have to watch not to get tarpitted, but that's why I have CCB + Praetorians that can still disengage and shoot while the scarabs can run back in to tie the enemy and lock them down.
I don't own as many scarabs as I wish and that's why I'm using a filler Tomb Blade unit. Everything but Anarkyr, Orikan and the Lychguard are truly footslogging and I have plenty of charges to make.
What do you guys think? I know that some things in there will evaporate turn 1 but I hope I still have enough standing to stand strong even if I lose the initiative.
Remember that you cannot charge first turn with units redeployed using the Deceivers ability.
My plan is to set everything bunched up in the center and switch the flank to where I can inflict the most damage.
Lychguard and Praetorian have a great tendency to not get wiped on a 10-man squad, so they can just keep coming back via RP.
If I get 1 redeploy, I redeploy Deceiver + Praetorians in such a way I can get a charge but daisy chain back to Anarkyr.
If I get 2 redeploy I put Anarkyr and the Lychguard forward, daisy chaining back to Orikan.
If I get 3 redeploy I put Lychguard, Anarkyr and Orikan up front and everything should follow behind.
Anarkyr can MWBD on the Praetorians and the Barge can MWBD the Lychguard. With the extra attack from Anarkyer and hitting on 2+ this should be a brutal assault. I just have to watch not to get tarpitted, but that's why I have CCB + Praetorians that can still disengage and shoot while the scarabs can run back in to tie the enemy and lock them down.
I don't own as many scarabs as I wish and that's why I'm using a filler Tomb Blade unit. Everything but Anarkyr, Orikan and the Lychguard are truly footslogging and I have plenty of charges to make.
What do you guys think? I know that some things in there will evaporate turn 1 but I hope I still have enough standing to stand strong even if I lose the initiative.
Nice cc list. I want to try one out as well at some point. You are aware that units moved with GI can't charge that turn? So you're basically sitting in their rapid fire zone for one full turn before you can get into cc. So using the deceiver isn't ideal in this list I think.
Oh yes, I'm aware I can't charge after deceiver redeploy (which I think is silly ruling... but I digress).
The objective is more to shift the flank, I wouldn't get a turn1 charge anyway and I trust a 10-man lychguard with 5++ can survive first turn. If anything, the Praetorians can fly past them, engage on first round, disengage and fly over enemies, shoot them in the back, then the Lychguard mop-up the mess.
I'm tempted to try this simply because I own only 10 Lychguard. I'm getting more to use with Kutlakh though. If I replaced the wraiths/orikan with Lychguard + Kutlakh it would be brutal, I think.
arhurt wrote: Oh yes, I'm aware I can't charge after deceiver redeploy (which I think is silly ruling... but I digress).
The objective is more to shift the flank, I wouldn't get a turn1 charge anyway and I trust a 10-man lychguard with 5++ can survive first turn. If anything, the Praetorians can fly past them, engage on first round, disengage and fly over enemies, shoot them in the back, then the Lychguard mop-up the mess.
I'm tempted to try this simply because I own only 10 Lychguard. I'm getting more to use with Kutlakh though. If I replaced the wraiths/orikan with Lychguard + Kutlakh it would be brutal, I think.
You know about the Obyron Slingshot vie the Deceiver moving Zhandrekh up, right?
That would get you your first turn charge with the 10 Lychguard (and the Praetorians firing, if you get two units for Grand Illusion).
... though I think we determined that it was more effective to move shooters up with Grand Illusion.
Hmm, if the source is an anonymous post on /tg/, we could be pinching salt daily until the emperor wakes up from his nap and it still wouldn't be enough...
Outrider Detachment
x1 Destroyer Lord
6 x5 Scarab Swarms
Spearhead Detachment
Toholk
x3 Doomsday Arks
I do minor variations. I can easily exchange Doomsday Arks for Heavy Destroyers if you want more of the Destroyer Cult thing. I also decided that the Tomb Sentinel was necessary to help provide a distraction. I'm doing...okay. I'm better off with my Chaos Space Marines and Loyalist Scum at the moment, but I know things will change once our codex comes out.
Outrider Detachment
x1 Destroyer Lord
6 x5 Scarab Swarms
Spearhead Detachment
Toholk
x3 Doomsday Arks
I do minor variations. I can easily exchange Doomsday Arks for Heavy Destroyers if you want more of the Destroyer Cult thing. I also decided that the Tomb Sentinel was necessary to help provide a distraction. I'm doing...okay. I'm better off with my Chaos Space Marines and Loyalist Scum at the moment, but I know things will change once our codex comes out.
Ah, thank you.
Amusingly, I misread that at first. I thought 'that doesn't seem like many scarabs' and then I realised I'd skipped over the 'x5' part.
Outrider Detachment
x1 Destroyer Lord
6 x5 Scarab Swarms
Spearhead Detachment
Toholk
x3 Doomsday Arks
I do minor variations. I can easily exchange Doomsday Arks for Heavy Destroyers if you want more of the Destroyer Cult thing. I also decided that the Tomb Sentinel was necessary to help provide a distraction. I'm doing...okay. I'm better off with my Chaos Space Marines and Loyalist Scum at the moment, but I know things will change once our codex comes out.
Ah, thank you.
Amusingly, I misread that at first. I thought 'that doesn't seem like many scarabs' and then I realised I'd skipped over the 'x5' part.
Should be noted the second Destroyer Lord has the Warscythe and Phylactery as well, and that you could lose the Sentinel for another Ark or several more Scarabs.
deltaKshatriya wrote: I haven't been following the thread, so I'm curious what the general consensus is on Necrons.
Are they better or worse than 7th?
What units seem to really shine?
Which ones not so much?
Horribly worse, bottom tier codex.
Scarabs and vehicles are our best units, infantry is okay, but all combos/fun tricks are too cost prohibitive to pull off.
Odd. I just played a game at 35 power (approximately 1000 points) and tabled the guy. Might've been a one off. Necrons seemed pretty well rounded to me. I'm curios what specifically got worse? What'd they change that really made Necrons bottom tier?
deltaKshatriya wrote: I haven't been following the thread, so I'm curious what the general consensus is on Necrons.
Are they better or worse than 7th?
What units seem to really shine?
Which ones not so much?
Horribly worse, bottom tier codex.
Scarabs and vehicles are our best units, infantry is okay, but all combos/fun tricks are too cost prohibitive to pull off.
Odd. I just played a game at 35 power (approximately 1000 points) and tabled the guy. Might've been a one off. Necrons seemed pretty well rounded to me. I'm curios what specifically got worse? What'd they change that really made Necrons bottom tier?
Necrons actually do better at lower point totals as opponents cant focus fire and deny reanimation protocols as well. At higher point totals, oponents will generally have enough firepower to reliably blow away entire units in a single turn and thus make RP a fairly minor concern. In smaller games it can be more difficult to consistently accomplish this, allowing RPs to actually affect the outcome of the game. Honestly that is my biggest complaint about RP - it is much more fluffy and interesting this edition, but it scales very poorly (from very potent in small games to almost useless in large games), yet pointwise we pay for it the same regardless!
This is not the "issue" with necrons making them a low tier codex per-se, just an explanation as to why a smaller game may have felt unremarkable.
As to WHY we are struggling - there is an excellent writeup discussing it from grimgold in this forum i recommend checking out - titled something along the lines of "why necrons got 46th at the BAO"
Should be noted the second Destroyer Lord has the Warscythe and Phylactery as well, and that you could lose the Sentinel for another Ark or several more Scarabs.
Okay. Out of interest, do you find Phylactery useful on your Destroyer Lords?
deltaKshatriya wrote: I haven't been following the thread, so I'm curious what the general consensus is on Necrons.
Are they better or worse than 7th?
What units seem to really shine?
Which ones not so much?
Horribly worse, bottom tier codex.
Scarabs and vehicles are our best units, infantry is okay, but all combos/fun tricks are too cost prohibitive to pull off.
Odd. I just played a game at 35 power (approximately 1000 points) and tabled the guy. Might've been a one off. Necrons seemed pretty well rounded to me. I'm curios what specifically got worse? What'd they change that really made Necrons bottom tier?
So I listen to the FLG podcasts a lot. Just listened to the chaos review, and the guys mentioned something curios.
They said in the most recent one that their gag order is now been lifted due to the codex's being available. They also hinted that the codex's were written well after the index's.
In previous times they have mentioned that in their meta, they think necrons are very powerful, maybe bordering on a bit too powerful.
It's pure speculation ATM, but I'm hoping they are referring to playtesting the codex necrons being powerful. It doesn't make sense saying that necrons are very strong in their meta if playing off index. But if our codex is powerful and they've been playtesting that for a while......
Should be noted the second Destroyer Lord has the Warscythe and Phylactery as well, and that you could lose the Sentinel for another Ark or several more Scarabs.
Okay. Out of interest, do you find Phylactery useful on your Destroyer Lords?
Kinda. The moment you roll a 3 you get a Scarabs worth of wounds back, meaning it basically paid itself back in 1 turn. If the Destroyer Lord is out in the open it isn't going to help. With the Sacarb screen, it heals the few wounds he takes.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Kinda. The moment you roll a 3 you get a Scarabs worth of wounds back, meaning it basically paid itself back in 1 turn. If the Destroyer Lord is out in the open it isn't going to help. With the Sacarb screen, it heals the few wounds he takes.
Nice.
I really want to try that sort of list but sadly I don't have anywhere near enough scarabs (even if I proxy some Rippers I'll still only have about 15 bases).
Is there anything else that could work - like Wraiths or Praetorians?
If you want a durable Warlord and are not banking on a Dlord for your list. Get CCB and get Toholk the Blind to give it that d3 regen. It hits on 2s the Dlord hits on 3s and it has more wounds. Just a thought.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Kinda. The moment you roll a 3 you get a Scarabs worth of wounds back, meaning it basically paid itself back in 1 turn. If the Destroyer Lord is out in the open it isn't going to help. With the Sacarb screen, it heals the few wounds he takes.
Nice.
I really want to try that sort of list but sadly I don't have anywhere near enough scarabs (even if I proxy some Rippers I'll still only have about 15 bases).
Is there anything else that could work - like Wraiths or Praetorians?
Hmm, only 15 bases?
I'd say make them 5 squads of 3 them, and use something quick. Are Wraiths still able to be taken in squads of one? I don't think so...
Klowny wrote: So I listen to the FLG podcasts a lot. Just listened to the chaos review, and the guys mentioned something curios.
They said in the most recent one that their gag order is now been lifted due to the codex's being available. They also hinted that the codex's were written well after the index's.
In previous times they have mentioned that in their meta, they think necrons are very powerful, maybe bordering on a bit too powerful.
It's pure speculation ATM, but I'm hoping they are referring to playtesting the codex necrons being powerful. It doesn't make sense saying that necrons are very strong in their meta if playing off index. But if our codex is powerful and they've been playtesting that for a while......
Thanks for this info...its very interesting. I really cant imagine theyd be referring to the index list being overpowered, especially given one of the excellent datasets weve seen showing necron index being subpar comes from someone over there. But who knows. So if we really are getting a codex in the distant but not too distant future as is rumored it sure is reasonable to think theyd already be playtesting a version of it.
Honestly i am fearful if so, id hate for gw to drop an op codex on us, people have a lot of negative connotations in regards to necrons as it is, i think id rather be solidly mid tier! I dont think i can deal with another edition of "OP" whines...heck i feel like i still hear them now despite all evidence to the contrary just because RP kinda irritates people!
Klowny wrote: So I listen to the FLG podcasts a lot. Just listened to the chaos review, and the guys mentioned something curios.
They said in the most recent one that their gag order is now been lifted due to the codex's being available. They also hinted that the codex's were written well after the index's.
In previous times they have mentioned that in their meta, they think necrons are very powerful, maybe bordering on a bit too powerful.
It's pure speculation ATM, but I'm hoping they are referring to playtesting the codex necrons being powerful. It doesn't make sense saying that necrons are very strong in their meta if playing off index. But if our codex is powerful and they've been playtesting that for a while......
Thanks for this info...its very interesting. I really cant imagine theyd be referring to the index list being overpowered, especially given one of the excellent datasets weve seen showing necron index being subpar comes from someone over there. But who knows. So if we really are getting a codex in the distant but not too distant future as is rumored it sure is reasonable to think theyd already be playtesting a version of it.
Honestly i am fearful if so, id hate for gw to drop an op codex on us, people have a lot of negative connotations in regards to necrons as it is, i think id rather be solidly mid tier! I dont think i can deal with another edition of "OP" whines...heck i feel like i still hear them now despite all evidence to the contrary just because RP kinda irritates people!
I think you're gonna have to deal with OP whines regardless of how strong Necrons actually are. It's one of the "perks" of being a durability army, it tends to upset everyone else when your units don't just fall over like they're used to happening when they shoot at something.
Klowny wrote: So I listen to the FLG podcasts a lot. Just listened to the chaos review, and the guys mentioned something curios.
They said in the most recent one that their gag order is now been lifted due to the codex's being available. They also hinted that the codex's were written well after the index's.
In previous times they have mentioned that in their meta, they think necrons are very powerful, maybe bordering on a bit too powerful.
It's pure speculation ATM, but I'm hoping they are referring to playtesting the codex necrons being powerful. It doesn't make sense saying that necrons are very strong in their meta if playing off index. But if our codex is powerful and they've been playtesting that for a while......
Thanks for this info...its very interesting. I really cant imagine theyd be referring to the index list being overpowered, especially given one of the excellent datasets weve seen showing necron index being subpar comes from someone over there. But who knows. So if we really are getting a codex in the distant but not too distant future as is rumored it sure is reasonable to think theyd already be playtesting a version of it.
Honestly i am fearful if so, id hate for gw to drop an op codex on us, people have a lot of negative connotations in regards to necrons as it is, i think id rather be solidly mid tier! I dont think i can deal with another edition of "OP" whines...heck i feel like i still hear them now despite all evidence to the contrary just because RP kinda irritates people!
Nevertheless I have the impression Reece wants to convey that Necrons are a very strong army, but they need to be played right, they're a "finesse army". In the competitive meta this no longer holds true, but who knows if that was all there was to what they now said.
Klowny wrote: So I listen to the FLG podcasts a lot. Just listened to the chaos review, and the guys mentioned something curios.
They said in the most recent one that their gag order is now been lifted due to the codex's being available. They also hinted that the codex's were written well after the index's.
In previous times they have mentioned that in their meta, they think necrons are very powerful, maybe bordering on a bit too powerful.
It's pure speculation ATM, but I'm hoping they are referring to playtesting the codex necrons being powerful. It doesn't make sense saying that necrons are very strong in their meta if playing off index. But if our codex is powerful and they've been playtesting that for a while......
Thanks for this info...its very interesting. I really cant imagine theyd be referring to the index list being overpowered, especially given one of the excellent datasets weve seen showing necron index being subpar comes from someone over there. But who knows. So if we really are getting a codex in the distant but not too distant future as is rumored it sure is reasonable to think theyd already be playtesting a version of it.
Honestly i am fearful if so, id hate for gw to drop an op codex on us, people have a lot of negative connotations in regards to necrons as it is, i think id rather be solidly mid tier! I dont think i can deal with another edition of "OP" whines...heck i feel like i still hear them now despite all evidence to the contrary just because RP kinda irritates people!
Nevertheless I have the impression Reece wants to convey that Necrons are a very strong army, but they need to be played right, they're a "finesse army". In the competitive meta this no longer holds true, but who knows if that was all there was to what they now said.
(I'm doing 1500pt lists because that's what we usually play in my group.)
The main difference is that List 1 has an Overlord and Tesla Immortal squad, whilst List 2 has a third Heavy Destroyer squad (I don't own any Doomsday Arks) and more scarabs. List 2 is probably truer to your list but I thought I might as well get your opinion anyway.
If you're wondering, I left Phylactery off one Destroyer Lord just to differentiate them a bit mechanically (my favourite one gets the extra regeneration ).
Anyway, can I ask how you play your list? Do you send the Destroyer Lords and their Scarab retinues up separate flanks or do they go together up the middle or such? Do you try to engage as many units in combat as possible or do you try to surround and eliminate a few units before moving on?
Oh, one other thing - since I'm running Destroyers would you recommend keeping them with the Destroyer Lords as they advance (to get their buff), or keeping them back (where they'll be less exposed to enemy fire)?
You've been a great help, by the way. I've been looking for ages for a way to run my Destroyer Lords without just having them sit next to a unit or two of Destroyers. This has made me enthusiastic about playing Necrons again so thanks for that.
(I'm doing 1500pt lists because that's what we usually play in my group.)
The main difference is that List 1 has an Overlord and Tesla Immortal squad, whilst List 2 has a third Heavy Destroyer squad (I don't own any Doomsday Arks) and more scarabs. List 2 is probably truer to your list but I thought I might as well get your opinion anyway.
If you're wondering, I left Phylactery off one Destroyer Lord just to differentiate them a bit mechanically (my favourite one gets the extra regeneration ).
Anyway, can I ask how you play your list? Do you send the Destroyer Lords and their Scarab retinues up separate flanks or do they go together up the middle or such? Do you try to engage as many units in combat as possible or do you try to surround and eliminate a few units before moving on?
Oh, one other thing - since I'm running Destroyers would you recommend keeping them with the Destroyer Lords as they advance (to get their buff), or keeping them back (where they'll be less exposed to enemy fire)?
You've been a great help, by the way. I've been looking for ages for a way to run my Destroyer Lords without just having them sit next to a unit or two of Destroyers. This has made me enthusiastic about playing Necrons again so thanks for that.
I might suggest list one because it has more tools, but I would lean towards using list two myself, as it is closer to the one I have. I'd suggest using List 1, and make changes as you see fit when you play a few games,
Ghaz wrote: Before you go with an Outrider Detachment, you may want to check on some of the changes coming in the new Chapter Approved book due in December.
Spoiler:
That's fine. If the army works then I'll nibble my opponents off the objectives. If not, I'll use my standard army with 4 full units of Immortals.
Ghaz wrote: Before you go with an Outrider Detachment, you may want to check on some of the changes coming in the new Chapter Approved book due in December.
deltaKshatriya wrote: I haven't been following the thread, so I'm curious what the general consensus is on Necrons.
Are they better or worse than 7th?
What units seem to really shine?
Which ones not so much?
Horribly worse, bottom tier codex.
Scarabs and vehicles are our best units, infantry is okay, but all combos/fun tricks are too cost prohibitive to pull off.
Odd. I just played a game at 35 power (approximately 1000 points) and tabled the guy. Might've been a one off. Necrons seemed pretty well rounded to me. I'm curios what specifically got worse? What'd they change that really made Necrons bottom tier?
IMO the reason we struggle is the meta has shifted violently to the strongest possible alpha strike....first turn assaults, massive board wiping shooting
We've always been an mid range shooting attrition army. Keep the enemy at arms length, and shoot them with decent shooting until only we're still standing. We just don't fit well right now in meta...that...and most of our stuff is wildly overpriced for what it brings to the table.
deltaKshatriya wrote: I haven't been following the thread, so I'm curious what the general consensus is on Necrons.
Are they better or worse than 7th?
What units seem to really shine?
Which ones not so much?
Horribly worse, bottom tier codex.
Scarabs and vehicles are our best units, infantry is okay, but all combos/fun tricks are too cost prohibitive to pull off.
Odd. I just played a game at 35 power (approximately 1000 points) and tabled the guy. Might've been a one off. Necrons seemed pretty well rounded to me. I'm curios what specifically got worse? What'd they change that really made Necrons bottom tier?
IMO the reason we struggle is the meta has shifted violently to the strongest possible alpha strike....first turn assaults, massive board wiping shooting
We've always been an mid range shooting attrition army. Keep the enemy at arms length, and shoot them with decent shooting until only we're still standing. We just don't fit well right now in meta...that...and most of our stuff is wildly overpriced for what it brings to the table.
We have a BRUTAL alpha strike if you build it right.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, making whoever finishes deploying first gets +1 to their roll for who goes first means MSU is better than it was before, and reducing your drops to the lowest as possible isnt as necessary now.
Obsec is good sure, but I still dont think it warrants warriors. Immortals yes, but warriors no.
Finally, obsec isnt htat important if you have scarabs surrounding the objective preventing them from getting on it.
Some of our lack of power this edition I feel is due to how our units interact with each other. Like Destroyers for example. If you have a QS heavy list along with destroyers, your opponent is going to focus all of their high damage weapons on the destroyers and will remove them quicky instead of wasting high damage shots on QS. On the flip side if you do not have alot of QS in a lost your opponent is still going to use all the higj d weapons on the destroyers.
Claas wrote: Some of our lack of power this edition I feel is due to how our units interact with each other. Like Destroyers for example. If you have a QS heavy list along with destroyers, your opponent is going to focus all of their high damage weapons on the destroyers and will remove them quicky instead of wasting high damage shots on QS. On the flip side if you do not have alot of QS in a lost your opponent is still going to use all the higj d weapons on the destroyers.
Destroyers sit in this weird spot, they are very good at what they do if you have a maxed squad with a D/lord around, but also are fragile.
Realistically, we now dont look to T values for safety anymore, you focus on the amount of wounds a model has. 3 base is okay against infantry, but there is a plethora of D6 damage weapons that will 1-shot a destroyer.... these are also easily spammable. Just not okay.
Tomb blades are only slightly better due to having access to an invuln, bigger squad sizes and better movement, but again are expensive.
Our units interact well with each other, we are just paying too much for the interactions (or lack thereof if RP is bypassed). Either RP needs buffing, which I cant see happening due to the outcry from the playerbase as a whole thinking it will make us too OP, or our points need dramatic reductions across the board. The latter is much more likely to happen, and while stuff wont go back to 7th ed cost levels, it needs to get better.
500 points for 9 maxed TB is just way too much, 420 for 20 flayed ones is laughable, Destroyers need much attention.
Like grim said in the other post, we need alot more mobility (cheaply) and damage if we are to stay at our current point cost. By the looks of it CP are going to be very usefull for stratagems once the codexes are out, and we wont have access to many at our current points cost, so we will need alot more bang for our buck.
If everything was 33% cheaper e.g. Scarabs went from 13pts to 9pts, Destroyers(without guns) went from 43pts to 30pts, Monolith went from 381pts to 250-281pts etc we would actually be quite a solid army as we could field a lot more models meaning we won't be as restricted and our combos like Zandrekh, Obyron+Lychguard, Deceiver won't cost as much to field meaning we can actually do said combo and still have points to put into more models.
Imo, rues wise we are solid and only a few things need re-wording but it's our pts cost that drastically need changing and GW knows this so hopefully we might get our codex soon so we don't feel as F'd over and actually have a chance in tournaments we play in because I'm going to Blood and Glory in November and as much as I want to bring my Necrons I feel like I will have to bring a different army if our issue are not sorted by then :(
Read the Chapter Approved sneak peak on the community site. It is supposed to hold players of Ork, Necron, Deldar ect. over for a while. It comes out in December so we are not seeing our Codex till 2018 some time.
The only up side that can possibly come from this is maybe will will got some model releases with it. Not holding my breath tho.
One thing that's needed is that Destroyer Lords don't provide such a measly benefit. How about Preferred Enemy for wounding, and Destroyers straight up get Shred again in the bubble instead? Then you'd have incentive to use him in the back or as support/counter charge, rather than being the beatstick only.
Odrankt wrote: If everything was 33% cheaper e.g. Scarabs went from 13pts to 9pts, Destroyers(without guns) went from 43pts to 30pts, Monolith went from 381pts to 250-281pts etc we would actually be quite a solid army as we could field a lot more models meaning we won't be as restricted and our combos like Zandrekh, Obyron+Lychguard, Deceiver won't cost as much to field meaning we can actually do said combo and still have points to put into more models.
Imo, rues wise we are solid and only a few things need re-wording but it's our pts cost that drastically need changing and GW knows this so hopefully we might get our codex soon so we don't feel as F'd over and actually have a chance in tournaments we play in because I'm going to Blood and Glory in November and as much as I want to bring my Necrons I feel like I will have to bring a different army if our issue are not sorted by then :(
What about the either-or nature of RP, wouldn't that still be a problem?
If you kill 19 warriors leaving one alive, RP is immensely valuable, bringing back 9-10 models with a cryptek around next turn. Kill that last model too, and RP is suddenly worthless. This makes balancing and scaling really hard, and it won't be about point reductions. (Don't get me wrong, its needed regardless)
Odrankt wrote: If everything was 33% cheaper e.g. Scarabs went from 13pts to 9pts, Destroyers(without guns) went from 43pts to 30pts, Monolith went from 381pts to 250-281pts etc we would actually be quite a solid army as we could field a lot more models meaning we won't be as restricted and our combos like Zandrekh, Obyron+Lychguard, Deceiver won't cost as much to field meaning we can actually do said combo and still have points to put into more models.
Imo, rues wise we are solid and only a few things need re-wording but it's our pts cost that drastically need changing and GW knows this so hopefully we might get our codex soon so we don't feel as F'd over and actually have a chance in tournaments we play in because I'm going to Blood and Glory in November and as much as I want to bring my Necrons I feel like I will have to bring a different army if our issue are not sorted by then :(
What about the either-or nature of RP, wouldn't that still be a problem?
If you kill 19 warriors leaving one alive, RP is immensely valuable, bringing back 9-10 models with a cryptek around next turn. Kill that last model too, and RP is suddenly worthless. This makes balancing and scaling really hard, and it won't be about point reductions. (Don't get me wrong, its needed regardless)
With a point reduction we could comfortably field a Monolith or 2 Night Scythe and have 4-6 of Warriors as well so we could field 2 units of warriors and as they get depleted we could keep deploying more warriors. I think GW intended for us to have our crons both on the field and off as it would be fluffy having a set amount of them at the beginning and as the war goes on more units start to apper from eternity gates.
RP does need a fix as well but I am unsure of how that will happen. Death Guard basically have our 7th edition RP with Rolling 5-6 to ignore wounds so be pointless having 2 armies d the exact same thing.
Maybe if GW let us "resurrect" our fallen units using CP? or if the whole unit is gone on a roll of 6+ you get to RP those models from that unit instead of a natural 5+? I miss the days of 4+re-rolling 1s tbh.
Lots to catch up on, like pyrothem said, Chapter approved more or less states that we won't have a codex by December, but we are getting enough in CA 2017 to help us limp along until we do. Examples included obsec for our troops, because otherwise we might not take them. We can also expect points changes, and rules changes, as well as some stratagems (because without stratagems we rightly don't care about CP). With any luck some of the requests we've made here and elsewhere will make it in. I'm not holding my breath though since the Nova Open in a three weeks will be using the rules, which implies they've already been completed. They could be use Nova open as a beta test, in which case we are in the maybe category, but I can't see a major tournament like Nova putting it's reputation on the line to do some footwork for GW.
As for Reece saying Necrons were borderline OP, I don't know, I think that's just hype. First I doubt he's had access to all of the codexes yet, even if we assume only 20 factions (which we know is wrong because marines alone could be almost half of that) and 2 codexes dropping a month, we are still middle of next year until the final codexes drop. So there is no way they had the anything near release ready rules done a year and a half before the shelf date. Maybe necrons are near the front of the queue, and Reece has had a chance to look at the near final product, but if they are devoting chunks of CA to us to help us limp along until a codex, I doubt that's the case.
Second Reece has some odd ideas about necrons, that might hint that he is used to a meta we are not familiar with, or it might just hint that he is not into Necrons enough to play them at the level he plays the other armies. No shame or offense intended, we all have armies that we find uninteresting (mine is Tau, one trick pony has only one trick) and just never bother looking more deeply into. If he has insights into a meta we don't it is a very different meta, were things like unsupported foot slogging by slow melee units can win games. All of the FLG Necron lists have been head scratchers, at least for me.
Finally if he thought something is was complete and utter gak, do you think his contract and NDA would allow him to come out and say it?
Grimgold wrote: Lots to catch up on, like pyrothem said, Chapter approved more or less states that we won't have a codex by December, but we are getting enough in CA 2017 to help us limp along until we do. Examples included obsec for our troops, because otherwise we might not take them. We can also expect points changes, and rules changes, as well as some stratagems (because without stratagems we rightly don't care about CP). With any luck some of the requests we've made here and elsewhere will make it in. I'm not holding my breath though since the Nova Open in a three weeks will be using the rules, which implies they've already been completed. They could be use Nova open as a beta test, in which case we are in the maybe category, but I can't see a major tournament like Nova putting it's reputation on the line to do some footwork for GW.
As for Reece saying Necrons were borderline OP, I don't know, I think that's just hype. First I doubt he's had access to all of the codexes yet, even if we assume only 20 factions (which we know is wrong because marines alone could be almost half of that) and 2 codexes dropping a month, we are still middle of next year until the final codexes drop. So there is no way they had the anything near release ready rules done a year and a half before the shelf date. Maybe necrons are near the front of the queue, and Reece has had a chance to look at the near final product, but if they are devoting chunks of CA to us to help us limp along until a codex, I doubt that's the case.
Second Reece has some odd ideas about necrons, that might hint that he is used to a meta we are not familiar with, or it might just hint that he is not into Necrons enough to play them at the level he plays the other armies. No shame or offense intended, we all have armies that we find uninteresting (mine is Tau, one trick pony has only one trick) and just never bother looking more deeply into. If he has insights into a meta we don't it is a very different meta, were things like unsupported foot slogging by slow melee units can win games. All of the FLG Necron lists have been head scratchers, at least for me.
Finally if he thought something is was complete and utter gak, do you think his contract and NDA would allow him to come out and say it?
Reece has lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. He's either being deliberately obtuse, he's a corporate sell out, or he's such a fanboy that he can't be honest about a faction he's not a fan of. Makes no difference to me which it is. Completely worthless
Reece has been a great popularizer of the hobby, and it's hard to overestimate the impact he has had on the competitive scene. With that said, I'm not taking list advice from him, because he is very cautious and measured when he speaks about such things. For instance he won't come straight out and say X is trash don't bother with it, and that lack of candor makes him a lot less helpful. I don't know if it's fair to say that he is a fanboy or a corporate sellout, I think it's just as possible that he is worried about the effect his negativity could have, as he has quite a following.
Whatever the reason I honestly have no idea how he does it, I would have slipped up and said something by this point, like calling people out for flyer spam, or questioning GWs plan for the campaign disaster we are in.
Their latest podcast he talked quite a bit about the length between the index release and the codex release, and he said in a round about way that the indexes were written WELL before the codexes, and that the fast release between index and these codexes was not indicative of the actual length of time between them being written. FLG has stated multiple times that everything will be a lot better once all the codexes are out, and that there is a lot of stuff that is only a problem due to the imbalance created in the indexes being released at the same time.
Holding out hope that we get a big ol' present in our codex. Until then I've really lost enthusiasm for Necrons :/
So is GW holding back codexes just to maximize sales then? Having a space marine focus now, with new models and shiny codex, and then to move on to maximize impact on some other faction? (when I think about it - why wouldn't they). Just sucks to be last one out then, as we are.
I will always be a big Necron fanboy.
I have never been that interested in the tournament competitive scene, as I like to focus on nice fun games.
Besides the positive effect of being bottom tier, is that not everyone is playing crons, just because they are a powerful cheese army. I never liked those kind of 'powergamers' that just jump from OP to OP.
I liked being the only cron player around, like I was back in 3rd. everyone said they were not a very strong army, but I still managed to win most of my games. I never mind being the underdog.
This doesn't mean I don't want gw to give us a more balanced army with some point reductions and more toys to play around with. I'm most annoyed with the fact that the only unit we have where we can play a bit around with equipment and points are the TB. We'll just have to wait and see.
Like I have said before a good game can be had at 1000 points. Nobody is building the most WAAC lists at 1000 points Becuase no tournament I know of runs points that low. So when you ask for a 1000point game you run into fluffier/not fine tuned list and a true back and forth game can be had.
Besides why do you want to play a higher point list? To pay for the laughable point sink distraction Monolith? Or piss poor flyers? Pay twice what other factions pay for a "ok" melee wing? Our dex is over costed and the higher the point game goes the more disadvantaged we are.
Pyrothem wrote: Like I have said before a good game can be had at 1000 points. Nobody is building the most WAAC lists at 1000 points Becuase no tournament I know of runs points that low. So when you ask for a 1000point game you run into fluffier/not fine tuned list and a true back and forth game can be had.
Besides why do you want to play a higher point list? To pay for the laughable point sink distraction Monolith? Or piss poor flyers? Pay twice what other factions pay for a "ok" melee wing? Our dex is over costed and the higher the point game goes the more disadvantaged we are.
What is the best we can field at 1000pts?
I usually only do local tournaments as it is mostly people I know that go to them bar a few people up and down the country.
I am going to my 1st "proper" event called Blood & Glory in the UK during 5-8th of November. Its 2000pts ITC/GW package so I am in the process of getting an army ready and playing against super cheesy lists so I can get some practice in and find a way to maybe beat all the 40k armies.
I just like seeing the best of what every army has and I like the challenge of beating those armies
I'd go for the 3x immortals list I think. Or switch the destroyers for some heavy destroyers. In the second list, since I wouldn't be sure the destroyers would have decent targets to shoot at.
The 1000 p list I made a while back had
OLvb, crypt, 30 gaussmortals, 4 Scarabs and 3 heavy destroyers.
It did pretty well vs a DS grey knights list with that special character and a stormraven.
Unfortunately I don't really have the time to play more :(
I have kept the warriors in becuase after the tesla rips the troops off enough for me to shoot their warlord warriors are great. Almost all warlords have a 4++ so the warriors -1 ap is more cost effective to stack wounds on. So far it works for me, people see the masive amout of shots the Tasla pump out and leave my warriors alone enought for them to get into rapid fire and smoke or cripple characters.
Grimgold wrote: Lots to catch up on, like pyrothem said, Chapter approved more or less states that we won't have a codex by December, but we are getting enough in CA 2017 to help us limp along until we do. Examples included obsec for our troops, because otherwise we might not take them. We can also expect points changes, and rules changes, as well as some stratagems (because without stratagems we rightly don't care about CP). With any luck some of the requests we've made here and elsewhere will make it in. I'm not holding my breath though since the Nova Open in a three weeks will be using the rules, which implies they've already been completed. They could be use Nova open as a beta test, in which case we are in the maybe category, but I can't see a major tournament like Nova putting it's reputation on the line to do some footwork for GW.
As for Reece saying Necrons were borderline OP, I don't know, I think that's just hype. First I doubt he's had access to all of the codexes yet, even if we assume only 20 factions (which we know is wrong because marines alone could be almost half of that) and 2 codexes dropping a month, we are still middle of next year until the final codexes drop. So there is no way they had the anything near release ready rules done a year and a half before the shelf date. Maybe necrons are near the front of the queue, and Reece has had a chance to look at the near final product, but if they are devoting chunks of CA to us to help us limp along until a codex, I doubt that's the case.
Second Reece has some odd ideas about necrons, that might hint that he is used to a meta we are not familiar with, or it might just hint that he is not into Necrons enough to play them at the level he plays the other armies. No shame or offense intended, we all have armies that we find uninteresting (mine is Tau, one trick pony has only one trick) and just never bother looking more deeply into. If he has insights into a meta we don't it is a very different meta, were things like unsupported foot slogging by slow melee units can win games. All of the FLG Necron lists have been head scratchers, at least for me.
Finally if he thought something is was complete and utter gak, do you think his contract and NDA would allow him to come out and say it?
Reece has lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. He's either being deliberately obtuse, he's a corporate sell out, or he's such a fanboy that he can't be honest about a faction he's not a fan of. Makes no difference to me which it is. Completely worthless
I think the FLG people play in a very different meta. Even though they're competitive players, they don't seem to use/test things like spam or mass Knight or whatever. They like balanced lists or thematic ones, and Necrons are fine there. But then you go to one of their own tournaments and there are 120 Brimstones on the table and it's not quite the same.
By the way, was there any consensus on whether Triarch Praetorians were worth it?
I was wondering about using 2 squads of 10 (or maybe 4 squads of 5?), each escorted by a Destroyer Lord. Does this sound viable or just a waste of points?
A few pages back, I wrote a battle report when I used a squad of 10 Praets to great effect vs a (weirdly enough) shooty BA list. I always loved the TP. Fluff wise and what they could do. And they are much more viable I think this edition than last.
They are definitely not a unit that has a place in every list, but with their powerblades (now with +1 A) or power staves they can be tailored better vs more lists than before. Against anything in powerarmor they are great.
They might not fair as well vs anything with a stormshield or too high invul save. And they probably can't kill enough of the horde not to get a LOT of attacks back to worry them, but other than that they should win most combats they charge in to. And fast enough so they should get the charge off most of the time.
Long story short: if you know what they can and cannot beat, they are worth it.
Edit: Oh and 2 of 10 are much better than 4 of 5. Scoring 10 wounds is doable for quite a few lists with the dakka they can put out. Even vs T5 3+.
vipoid wrote: By the way, was there any consensus on whether Triarch Praetorians were worth it?
I was wondering about using 2 squads of 10 (or maybe 4 squads of 5?), each escorted by a Destroyer Lord. Does this sound viable or just a waste of points?
Praetorians are in the same weird place as Destroyers. They are optimal against T4 elite infantry and not much more. So if your army lacks that then they are a decent choice. Necrons however rarely lack that. Also units receive damage in both turns in CC and you can only RP in your own turn so thd most elite units should be avoided.
I'm always of the opinion that "Whatever Praetorians want to kill, Destroyers can probably do better".
Not sure if it's true or not, but it seems about right.
I've played them against orks.... not a good idea. I can envisage them being good against power armour, but again Destroyers are just as good. A good list against marines I would see having both Destroyers and praets. But against most other armies, leave them on the bench.
1 damage just doesn't have enough punch to do much work at all.
I don't think destroyers do stuff better than praets. Their D3 damage is waisted on most units.
1 destroyer is 63 p. You get 2 S5 Ap-3 D D3 hits mov 10 3 W. 3+
2 Praets is 70 p. You get 2 S5 Ap-3 D 1 shots mov 10 4 W 3+ AND 4 S5 ap-3 D1 melee.
The range is 24 vs 12/melee. But I still don't think they do the same job better.
Means you have to take Imotekh/Anraykr, but they're good HQs anyway.
How do either of those keep up with Praetorians?
Just keep them within their MWBD range and Anrakyr +1 Attack. Move the Praetorians 8 inches, move Anrakyr/Imotekh their full 5 and your still able to get the above buffs.
Praetorians can move 10 inches but I usually move them less then that if there getting buffs by any HQ.
Hey guys, newer player looking to start collecting Necrons.
I've done a bit of reading on the recent posts in this thread and it seems people are a big fan of using lots of Scarabs? Why is that the case? And what kind of units should be used alongside them?
Scarabs are our conscripts. A wound sponge that is there to protect the core of your army. They are not good at killing or staying alive but they are our cheap bubble wrap that has the movment to grab some objectives when needed.
Scarabs are our conscripts. A wound sponge that is there to protect the core of your army. They are not good at killing or staying alive but they are our cheap bubble wrap that has the movment to grab some objectives when needed.
Scarabs are our conscripts. A wound sponge that is there to protect the core of your army. They are not good at killing or staying alive but they are our cheap bubble wrap that has the movment to grab some objectives when needed.
Wait so enemy models can't shoot over them?
Correct. Characters can hid behind scarabs. Also knights can't march over them because they aren't infantry.
Also, a big part of the meta currently is hordes. And putting out a bucketload of attacks from scarabs, that wound most hordes on 3/4+ is very beneficial. Dont underestimate the damage scarabs can do, remember, they wound an imperial knight just as efficiently as they do a space marine.
Ive had them shred deffkoptas, nob squads, conscript blobs, seekers.
Additionally, while scarabs will wilt to sustained D3/D6 damage weapons, or a heavy volley from single damage weapons, they are surprisingly durable, especially at their price point.
Yup I think that any list over 1000points should include some Sacarbs for bubble wrapping and stopping drops from getting down to juicy targets.
Also I forgot that with the Voidbalde buff giving and extra attack does that bring Canoptek Acanthrites into a better take-able light?
They have High movment and have assault gun so they can mitigate the 12" range. They are -1 to hit with range so you are begging them to overload plasma to deal with the 3 wounds.
I think they may have a place in a list. What to you think?
Scarabs are our conscripts. A wound sponge that is there to protect the core of your army. They are not good at killing or staying alive but they are our cheap bubble wrap that has the movment to grab some objectives when needed.
Wait so enemy models can't shoot over them?
They can if they can draw LOSiirc, but if there's a character behind scarabs then the enemy can't target that character, as usual. This makes scarabs the ideal escort for c'tan shards, as odd as it may sound; they both have roughly the same movement and scarabs are considerably cheaper than wraiths. As long as you make sure the scarabs are always the closest target, your opponent won't be able to target the c'tan, as its a character with less than 9 wounds.
What the enemy can't do is charge past them; if there's a line of scarabs in front of your army your opponent won't be able to charge the more important parts without dealing with the scarabs first. Scarabs also protect against deep strike / deployment shenanigans; most abilities require you to deploy more than 9" away from an enemy model, and scarabs can spread out nicely due to their base size.
Scarabs are our conscripts. A wound sponge that is there to protect the core of your army. They are not good at killing or staying alive but they are our cheap bubble wrap that has the movment to grab some objectives when needed.
Wait so enemy models can't shoot over them?
They can if they can draw LOSiirc, but if there's a character behind scarabs then the enemy can't target that character, as usual.
This makes scarabs the ideal escort for c'tan shards, as odd as it may sound; they both have roughly the same movement and scarabs are considerably cheaper than wraiths. As long as you make sure the scarabs are always the closest target, your opponent won't be able to target the c'tan, as its a character with less than 9 wounds.
What the enemy can't do is charge past them; if there's a line of scarabs in front of your army your opponent won't be able to charge the more important parts without dealing with the scarabs first. Scarabs also protect against deep strike / deployment shenanigans; most abilities require you to deploy more than 9" away from an enemy model, and scarabs can spread out nicely due to their base size.
Just mind the gap! Enemy can just declare a multicharge and rush passed them within 1" if need be, so keep them less than an enemy base diameter apart (they can not physically move through them unless Fly.
So, Im trying to figure out list for local tournament.
There will be 3 missions, Retrieval Mission, The Relic, The Scouring
secondary: Slay the Warlord, First Blood, Linebreaker
tertiary: Cost(pts) of all lost units
So, my first list is Silvertide, hoping that at low pts games, opponents will have hard time dealing with 20 warriors at once, Anrakyr is there for counterattack options (bcs 40 attacks from warriors hitting on 2+ is quite scary), cryptek for 5++ ane better RP. Scarabs should lock opponents tanks, grab objectives and screen warriors)
Personally I'd pick the last one.
I like the first one, but having no anti tank is a big downside. Although you could exchange one warrior blob for 3 heavy destroyers, drop a few Scarabs and put a small unit of teslamortals for backfield objective camping.
In the second one I'd increase my teslamortals squad to 10 so I'd have something to deal with hordes(kinda). Although exchanging the D lord or cryptek for an OL would be better then.
I'd still use the third list, but exchange the Warriors for immortals. Given the unit of 10 tesla and have 2 smaller units (I'd say around 7) of gauss.
Too bad you don't have any doomsdayarks. Would have also gone nicely with the first list.
Just my 2 cents. Good luck at the tourney
Saw this vid from a while ago where someone made a list of nothing but Deathmarks and Stalker-DDA combos.
Won in the battle report, but I'm curious about how it would do against other lists.
I'm more curious as to the specific list but it probably won't be hard to just recreate when I have computer access again.
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Halfpast_Yellow wrote: What's the math on the wounds per point on the T7, T8 gribblies compared to Warriors/Immortals?
They probably do less against T8 do to Immortals still having S5, and T7 will depend on the target. He did mention the Doomsday Arks being for that main purpose.
Has anyone tried NOT deep Striking Deathmarks, but instead using them with an Overlord for MWBD? Mortal wounds in addition to other damage on a 5+ seems really good. (or am I reading that wrong?)
Just wanted to know if anyone else has tried useing Nemesor + Obyron +Deciever combo?
Granted how well leap frogging like this works varies on the D3 you get for the deceiver, also based on the order of events i've found that doing this can leave nemesor with only himself as a valid MWBD target~ but im getting off track.
Note - I tend to only really use this tactic if I get first turn but i've pulled off some nasty bates with it too on second in games where people haven't played against necrons yet.
Spoiler:
Start of game, Place Nemesor + Ctan 12 from enemies with grand illusion; if you got 2 then I bring along a shooty bubble wrap since these guys cant charge anyway ; if I get 3 then I bring over the cryptek/diviner
At start of turn - Nemesor MWBD's / Transient madness
Move phase, move to range with Nem as far back as you can to not get wrapped in a charge but as far forward as possible to keep Ob's options open. Make sure to leave spaces for models you're TP'ing in to your bubble if necessary (ex: Cryptek).
At End of move - Obyron TP's himself +1 infantry unit. If you got a 2 then have Obyron bring over the Cryptek since he's infantry. Now you have front line rapid fire crew with invul saves and decent get back up. If you got a 3 and everythings already over there, then Obyron comes over with either an additional shooting team (or shooting/melee like Praetorians) or brings in a melee force to lay the smack down after the shots soften up the target for em (Lychguard can be decent if you keep them in range of chrono so they can warscythe with 5+ invul, but if you dont want to worry about distance sword and board.).
Alternatively if im playing more shooting heavy I tend to include a Triarch stalker in the Deciever TP to get into weapons range (since obyron cant ghostwalk those). With heat rays 1/2 range special ability this can be pretty nice for damage. However this tends to mean I have to do Triarch on 2 and then infantry on 3 and ghost walk over the cryptek. It can also be a little riskier since if you get a 1 or a 2 you're most likely leaving the cryptek behind.
But yeah if I get unlucky with a 1 that's worth the command point, if you're really unlucky with a second 1 on that d3 then you have lost the major advantage of the build and have to advance across the board on foot.
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But yeah I like this strat cause as long as you can keep Nemesor and Obyron alive and close to the melee, then you can continue to push mower every turn by ghost walking the unit out of the melee and then setting them up so all your forces can shoot / charge in again at top of initiative. Helpful in keeping a particular unit (if not flying) locked down somewhat cause at best they're gonna fall back if they aren't good at melee etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu-adom wrote: Has anyone tried NOT deep Striking Deathmarks, but instead using them with an Overlord for MWBD? Mortal wounds in addition to other damage on a 5+ seems really good. (or am I reading that wrong?)
MWBD is advance, charge and hit rolls~ *double checks* yeah so this effect wouldn't effect the to wound at all sadly.
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Quick question on Scarab hive ability.
Spoiler:
Scarab hive: at the beginning of your turn, you can roll a d6 for each friendly canoptek scarabs unit that is below its starting number of models withing 6" of any canoptek spyders. On a roll 1 one of those spyders takes d3 mortal wounds. On a 2+ one of the canoptek spyders units unleashes reinforcements. Return a canoptek scarab swarm to the depleted unit, in cohereency and more then 1" from enemy models.
Is this a once a turn thing, or can you do it as many times as you have tomb spyders units / models as long as you're willing to risk the mortal wounds?
Just had a silly mental image of a bunch of scarab squads at 9 models and fielding 3 units of 3 spyders and assuming the wound pool wasn't wiped just spitting more onto the unit until back up to full capacity every round so long as the spyders were alive.
Scarab hive: at the beginning of your turn, you can roll a d6 for each friendly canoptek scarabs unit that is below its starting number of models withing 6" of any canoptek spyders. On a roll 1 one of those spyders takes d3 mortal wounds. On a 2+ one of the canoptek spyders units unleashes reinforcements. Return a canoptek scarab swarm to the depleted unit, in cohereency and more then 1" from enemy models.
Is this a once a turn thing, or can you do it as many times as you have tomb spyders units / models as long as you're willing to risk the mortal wounds?
So, let's imagine two groups of Spyders and 2 groups of scarabs. Both units of scarabs are in range (6") of both groups of spyders.
At the beginning of your turn, Spyder Group #1 checks to see that the units of scarabs are below strength... they are. You resolve the ability, rolling for each scarab group (not per spyder... like in the old days).
Then Spyder Group #2 checks to see that the groups of scarabs are below strength. If one of the groups of scarabs is now at full... you can not roll for it this turn.
So, in summary. You can roll for each spyder group once per round. If you have 3 groups of Spyders, you can add up to 3 scarab bases to each of your Scarab units, but you risk 3d3 mortal wounds.
Lothmar wrote: Just wanted to know if anyone else has tried useing Nemesor + Obyron +Deciever combo?
Yeah I used it against a melee SW list in a relic mission. Deceiver took a Ghost Ark with Orikan, Anrakyr and Nemesor up the table and Orikan brought some Lychguard right into the face of some Wulfen. I attacked his Flyer with my C'tan (which I just now realised I couldn't do), my opponent then used the counterstrike stratagem with his Wulfen against my Lychguard and devastated them. He kept picking up the relic and I kept killing his models with my character deathstar. I didn't learn much about the army due to me being stupid with my order of attacks and me being so lucky that we still went more or less even. It was the last time I attacked in the wrong order though.
Anpu-adom wrote:Scarab hive: at the beginning of your turn, you can roll a d6 for each friendly canoptek scarabs unit that is below its starting number of models withing 6" of any canoptek spyders. On a roll 1 one of those spyders takes d3 mortal wounds. On a 2+ one of the canoptek spyders units unleashes reinforcements. Return a canoptek scarab swarm to the depleted unit, in cohereency and more then 1" from enemy models.
Is this a once a turn thing, or can you do it as many times as you have tomb spyders units / models as long as you're willing to risk the mortal wounds?
Once each turn. Spyders are bad, their durability is laughably low for their cost. But then I thought Scarabs were bad and C'tan were meh. Instead of taking a C'tan and a ton of Scarabs I've had success with just taking Wraiths, except against smite, damn smite. I don't think the ghost ability of Wraiths should be taken for granted, moving through a bubble wrap screen to hold up a vehicle can be brutal. I only play against Marines and Guard though, Scarabs would get shot by Guard before they did anything and they don't ever do anything against Marines.
Yeah I used it against a melee SW list in a relic mission. Deceiver took a Ghost Ark with Orikan, Anrakyr and Nemesor up the table
*facepalm*
I tend to overlook ghost ark as a transport because I forgot it could take characters and it can only carry 10 warriors otherwise (granted still use it as firesupport and secondary fire support for warriors)…
This has given me something to think about since I have a few builds which are 4+ HQ based.
Thanks.
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On another note, don't own the current edition yet and didn't find my answers in the update splat.
Was looking to see if 8th edition had special rules or unique info on some of the keywords in my necron army.
Swarm, Monsterous and titanic specifically. I remembered in 7th swarm helped scarabs a bit and was hoping it would in 8th but since there's no template now I could see it's benifit being waved.
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Also, on Catacomb command barge. Since that comes with an overlord, does he survive if the barge blows up?
Anpu-adom wrote: Has anyone tried NOT deep Striking Deathmarks, but instead using them with an Overlord for MWBD? Mortal wounds in addition to other damage on a 5+ seems really good. (or am I reading that wrong?)
It's not a bad idea if your opponent doesn't have anything in reserves. But if they are holding something back you'd be wasting Ethereal Interception and that sweet sweet chance to blow through a 5 man squad or character falling from the sky. Though pair a full 10 Deathmark squad with an Overlord and make an alpha strike against your opponent's warlord using the Deceiver's Grand Illusion? 20 shots hitting on 2s = 16.66 hits, you should get 2-3 6's out of that for 2-3 mortal wounds plus the wounds on 4+ or 5+ depending on your target; that's another 6-8 wounds to be saved against. It should net you 3-6 unsaved wounds on the enemy warlord, more if you are lucky. That could really put the hurt on an army, especially one with Cawl or pappa smurf or another high cost model riding at the head. It would probably work best in lower point games with an enemy warlord that only has a 3+ save, but still. Interesting idea.
On another note, don't own the current edition yet and didn't find my answers in the update splat.
Was looking to see if 8th edition had special rules or unique info on some of the keywords in my necron army.
Swarm, Monsterous and titanic specifically. I remembered in 7th swarm helped scarabs a bit and was hoping it would in 8th but since there's no template now I could see it's benifit being waved.
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Also, on Catacomb command barge. Since that comes with an overlord, does he survive if the barge blows up?
No news on our keywords yet, I assume that will come when our codex drops, whenever that might be. As for the CCB, nope, the Overlord is part of the model not a separate unit being transported by the model. Once it goes the Overlord goes with it. I seem to remember that being the same in 7th.
Once each turn. Spyders are bad, their durability is laughably low for their cost. But then I thought Scarabs were bad and C'tan were meh. Instead of taking a C'tan and a ton of Scarabs I've had success with just taking Wraiths, except against smite, damn smite. I don't think the ghost ability of Wraiths should be taken for granted, moving through a bubble wrap screen to hold up a vehicle can be brutal. I only play against Marines and Guard though, Scarabs would get shot by Guard before they did anything and they don't ever do anything against Marines.
So far I agree on the Spyders, totally useless for the points. Scarabs however have been a beast for me, though you are right you really need to keep to cover and run like hell to get them somewhere useful. Way cheaper than wraiths and they tie up shooting units forever. They are also great for bubblewrapping your characters. 4 attacks per base that hit on 3s and wound on 5s cut through MEQs faster than you might think, you just have to bring enough bases, which for the point cost isn't that hard to do. They are also great for taking minimum units and sitting on backfield objectives.
iGuy91 wrote: Is it even possible to make a decent Necron list at 1k points? Trying to come up with a doubles list...and just struggling mightily.
I had a game today against Ad mech at 1k. I was winning 5-3 till his Dune Crawler charged my unit of 9 Immortals that had only 3 left and exploded in CC, dealt 3 MW on the Immortals and he got 2 points for that using the latest Konor mission.
I thought my list was okay but i definitely felt like I was lacking CC and reliable strong weapons.
Klowny wrote:Yeah so the wording on the scarab hive means you get one scarab base back per turn, not one per spyder.
More spyders mean redundancy if one dies but they do not grant additional bases
Fragile wrote:Well it means, 1 base per Scarab unit each turn. The number of Sypders appears to be just redundancy.
You roll on the basis of the Spyder Unit... not on the scarabs.
Example: I have a group of scarabs that are down 2 bases, and that unit is within range of 3 units of Spyders. I will roll with the first unit of spyders and probably add a base to the scarab squad. I would then roll with the second unit of Spyders, and probably add a base to the scarab squad. If both of the first two units were successful at adding a base, my third unit of Spyders wouldn't get to roll for that unit of scarabs as it isn't below strength.
They have taken the fun out of Scarab Farm, that's for sure. If I have a single Spyder surrounded by three understrength units of scarabs, it has a 50% chance to take at least d3 mortal wounds. With the benefit of adding maybe three bases of scarabs. I don't think that exchange is a good one.
I'm pretty sure that's not what the rules say, from my understanding you roll once for each scarab unit that is within 3" of any spyder. One spyder could then perfectly well add scarabs to several units. A second spyder unit could not add scarabs to a scarab unit that already had one
Automatically Appended Next Post: (by scarab units I mean understrength scarab units)
iGuy91 wrote: Is it even possible to make a decent Necron list at 1k points? Trying to come up with a doubles list...and just struggling mightily.
Depends on what you're tagging with I suppose...
If you want to be the backline and they can spare some screening to prevent infiltration, I have an artillery build I haven't tested yet...
Spoiler:
Catacomb command Barge - 138 (cant buff anyone but none of the leaders could with this build so figured i'd take something with decent speed and quantum shields for annoyance factor. Though if tagging with another necron player and you guys are same dynasty you can support that way.).
Heavy Support
Doomsday Ark - 10 power ; 203 points
Doomsday Ark - 10 power ; 203 points
Doomsday Ark - 10 power ; 203 points
Canoptek Spyders 3x - 12 power ; 252 points (*optional if you sub out CCB for cheaper leader but these guys are just here for repair. gloom prism +15, Particle beamer +30)
If you're looking to cause chaos and jump into their faces and possibly assassinate a particular character while your ally gets into position etc I have an assassin build (also untested)... If you position correctly and they dont wipe your deathmarks then keep push mowering them with Vargard and ghost walk mantle to pull them out of melees if someone gets them and then fire and charge, lather rinse repeat while Ctans cause big explosions and go afield with their slightly higher speed after other nearby units (position them to take advantage of that 4+ explosion to Suicide bomb as many squads as possible if the enemy fires without repositioning or plays badly.
Alternatively if you're looking to support with a little speed...
Spoiler:
outrider
Destroyer lord - 124
Canoptek Wraiths 6x - 252 (particle caster.)
Destroyer squad 6x (5 norm, 1 heavy) - 390
Heavy Destroyer 3x -225 (if not a lot of hard targets swap for 5x wraiths 210 ; or 1x 9 model or 3x 3 model squads of Scarabs for wound soak, objective holds or melee tie ups.)
Alternatively, if you want to focus all your points up and pound a single location while your ally gets into position etc.
Spoiler:
Grand illusion, on a 1 bring Nemesor and ctan, on a 2 bring warriors, on a 3 bring orikan as well. (if you roll a 1 command point and hope for a 2+)
After movement etc, have Obyron bring Obyron tp himself over.
Supreme command - +1 CP HQ - Nemesor Zahndresk - 9 power ; 180 points
Vargard Obyron - 8 power ; 151 points
Orikan - 8 power ; 143 points
Elite
Ctan Deciever - 12 power ; 225 points
Auxillary support -1CP
Troop
Warriors 20x - 12 power ; 240 points
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Alternatively, you can run this as...
Transport - Ghost ark - 170
HQ - Loaded with Orikan - 143 / or Cryptek with rez orb for extra warrior sustain & Overlord (figure out gear add on's appropriately, might not be able to run staffs of light on Cryp/overlord but still doable. You can do Triarch stalker in place of overlord, but I think 2+ hits on BS and WS is better then reroll 1's on to hits of 1 enemy squad. Granted the heavy fire support that grants that business is no joke, so decide based on what you are playing against.)
Troop - Warriors 20x - 240 points
Elite - Ctan Deciever - 12 power ; 225 points
Need Grand illusion 2+ to be effective (move Ghost ark, warriors and Ctan.)
Zambo horde isn't bad, thought it gets better at 1500+ and due to speed you're pretty isolated in one section of the map and can easily be kited after initial burst.
Spoiler:
978 points
HQ - Imotekh - 12 power ; 228
Elite
Ctan Deciever - 12 power ; 225 points
Flayed ones 15x - 15 power ; 315 points (feel free to make this 20 and make it your primary survival force and the other a 5 man annoyance. But both should be within 12" of Stormlord for reroll 1's on to hits and the larger group within 6 for MWBD)
Flayed ones 10x - 10 power ; 210 points
Pop em onto the board turn 1 and hope for a charge success. But yeah 1500 (one minimum flayed squad)-2000+ points is when you can also do Anrakyr the traveler and a Cryptek and pop all leaders in a ghost ark so they can all be brought over on a 1 so you dont need to worry and then you've got +1 attack, 2x MWBD's, 5+ invul saves, 4+ Re prot, reroll Attack 1's, Reroll damage 1's, etc
Imo at 1000 points you should keep it simple. I wouldn't use named characters unless you're sure they will get their points back. The Nemesor/oby combi is definitely too expensive imo. A combination of destroyers/stalker/Ddarks/troops with a OL or cryptek and you should do fine.
If you expect elite cc units some pretoria should could be useful, but I wouldn't go overboard.
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