Trying to figure out if I need to Grand Illusion in certain leaders so they can buff turn one, or if I can just load them onto a ghost ark and place the units I want buffed in reach and then have them disembark and proceed to the turn as normal on move phase.
From 'Transports', pg. 183 of the 8th edition rulebook:
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.
Klowny wrote: Yea dude, welcome to index 'every fun thing is too expensive to use practically'
We are probably due for some points decreases in chapter approved, and if the new marine points cost are any indication we are in for a lot of them. However it's a long time between now and december, and there will be 7 more codexes before then, which is going to be brutal.
Omg I'm getting triggered in the Reinforcement Points thread. Its claimed in that thread that necrons RP is the most broken mechanic in the game and as a result we are the most OP faction currently.
To be fair, the first few games I played amongst five other friends, the necron player won every game apart from against the WAAC admech guy.
I was playing DG, and the RP rule was caning me. I just couldn't get the damage output to put units down. Heavy Destroyers coming back at full wounds is just stupid.
This was prior to the FAQ though, so the morale issue wasn't applying.
zerosignal wrote: To be fair, the first few games I played amongst five other friends, the necron player won every game apart from against the WAAC admech guy.
I was playing DG, and the RP rule was caning me. I just couldn't get the damage output to put units down. Heavy Destroyers coming back at full wounds is just stupid.
This was prior to the FAQ though, so the morale issue wasn't applying.
Saw the gloom prisms so started thinking about it and realized i'd never done a Deny the witch before.
Am I just rolling my 2d6 vs their 2d6 and im trying to get higher, or does the other side get some kind of other bonuses and thus im at a disadvantage for my Denial attempts?
Praets or flayed ones, both put out 1 damage, just with more AP on the praets, but the FO put out a shedload of attacks, and reroll wounds. Can DS too.
So there were no Necron players at Hammer of Wrath. In the TFG radio podcast they mention that and that the Necrons are in a bad place until chapter approved or the codex.
Nothing new, but it's good that it gets mentioned.
About Necrons best cc unit, I haven't tried out Lychguard or FO, but have used rod Praetorians in a couple of games. Wasn't particularly impressed by them since they only are S5 and Dam1. Perhaps if I would have met armies with elite infantry it would have been a different story.
Lychguard are too slow and have either too low damage (sword and board) or are too easy to kill (Scythe).
FO seems to be too expensive. If my opponents can wipe out 20 warriors the 20 FO shouldn't be a problem.
As long as you make the initial 9" charge off the deepstrike the FO squad shouldn't be out of combat unless the squad they were attacking died, and even then your pile in should ideally get them into cover and/or out of range of a charge or rapid fire.
The two units really serve a different purpose. I wouldn't throw a squad of 10 FO into anything with a 2+ save, but into a horde of conscripts or boyz? 40 attacks really add up quick. Anything with a 4+ save or worse goes down pretty fast under weight of fire (well weight of claws). Praets on the other hand are good for actually going up against armored characters and other CC units.
Yeah I just don't like the 1 damage that praets do now, underwhelming overall. If you want elite killers, lychguard are your boys, if you want horde flayed ones do the job. If you want the small amount of units in between the two praets are the go
Klowny wrote: Yeah I just don't like the 1 damage that praets do now, underwhelming overall. If you want elite killers, lychguard are your boys, if you want horde flayed ones do the job. If you want the small amount of units in between the two praets are the go
Sure Lychguard have an extra damage on Praets if you take the scythes, but then you are looking at ~150 pts for a 5 man squad with warscythes, which really costs closer to 325 after you pay for the night scythe to bring them in, and that unit can't do anything till turn 2 at best, and the unit can't move after exiting the night scythe because invasion beam uses the rules for a deep strike not those for disembarking a transport, unless that has shown up in errata I haven't seen. so you are stuck putting the flyer in grenade range
Or you don't pay for the flyer, you hit most characters on a 4+ at best and get that 4++ save from the shield so you don't die on your march across the table, or you hit most stuff on 3s and get torn to pieces on the way up the field and don't make it into combat till turn 2 or 3 anyway since it only moves 5-11" per turn with the advance.
With the amount of AP weapons with range laying around in 8th ed, I just don't think a 3+ save keeps these guys around long enough to make their points back most of the time. Points better spent elsewhere.
Yeah, they're all underwhelming tbh, I dont like running any of them. The extra damage is really noticeable, and if you add in anrakyr the buffs really give lych the edge in combat. But then praets are faster. It depends on what your strategy is with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: +1 A w/ MWBD is really good. I know he can give it to praets too, just keeping up with them he will have a hard time.
So the consensus is Lychguard and Praetorians are meh while the FO are ok.
I will try out the Praetorians a few more times because I've painted up 10 of them. Perhaps even in min sized squads.
The problem for me is that I pretty much always run a battalion so the army will have Warriors and or Immortals. Immortals kills just as good as Praetorians and then i get 2 units of 10 of them instead of 10 Praetorians.
Those 350 points are better spent on heavy support.
Does anyone else find that due to the way RP works (only in your turn) that Necron CC units are very vulnerable in prolonged combat? Fighting elite units, this forces us to wipe out or cause heavy casualties the the unit on the charge.
Yes, that's most likely the most competetive choice for Necrons since we have to foot slog our slow troops which makes them unwieldy and easy to pick off.
But concerning the Praetorians in another detachment i still believe that Immortals can reliably do more damage to the same targets. In a couple of games I will try out Praetorians in a Spearhead.
Yes, that's most likely the most competetive choice for Necrons since we have to foot slog our slow troops which makes them unwieldy and easy to pick off.
But concerning the Praetorians in another detachment i still believe that Immortals can reliably do more damage to the same targets. In a couple of games I will try out Praetorians in a Spearhead.
I will say that the main selling point of Praetorians, besides the new extra wound, is that they don't need a babysitter like everyone else. They're Fearless, already have an okay number of attacks, so they don't really need many bonuses from our HQ, and they have the natural mobility.
Played my doubles game...2000 points a side Necrons and Death Guard vs Sisters of Celestine and Adeptus Mechanicus.
It was a pretty brutal slugging match. I took Praetorians, Wraiths, Scarabs, a CCB, and some warriors so i could blitz the Admech running 4 triple phosphor blaster kastellans. (They are totally nuts and I struggled to kill them, the Praetorians were shot off the board, but the wraiths made it in and tied them up the rest of the game.
Ended up being a DG/Necron win, but my Crons took the brunt of the damage. Death Guard are probably tankier as a casual observation.
v0iddrgn wrote: Why can't units beamed out of a NS launch assaults that turn?
The NS and Monolith both lack the Transport keyword so any units entering play act as though they DS. Which means no move. Which means unplayable.
They can still try to assault though, it's just that the odds aren't in your favour.
Actually, there's nothing wrong with pulling your Scythe up next to a juicy target, then beaming down Lychguard 1.01" away for guaranteed charge SAME turn.
v0iddrgn wrote: Why can't units beamed out of a NS launch assaults that turn?
The NS and Monolith both lack the Transport keyword so any units entering play act as though they DS. Which means no move. Which means unplayable.
They can still try to assault though, it's just that the odds aren't in your favour.
Actually, there's nothing wrong with pulling your Scythe up next to a juicy target, then beaming down Lychguard 1.01" away for guaranteed charge SAME turn.
Well there is one problem. Your Scythe sitting there for a turn getting shot down while your CC unit is stuck on the tomb world doing nothing. That scythe gets shot down, which isn't that hard considering no Quantum Shielding and a 3+ save.
You can get grenades thrown at you! Rapid fire! The weight of shots will crush our Flyers if you sit them that close to enemy units. And if you only have 1 and the enemy can keep your deep strike units off the table, no way it stays alive.
Is forge world stuff applicable all the time, or is it only usable under special situations/points games?
I really liked Kutlakh and wanted to build an infantry rush concept around him what with the charge after advancing mechanic he gives out in 12".
Toholk's not bad either assuming you're playing a list with at least one vehicle, though on that note I saw that Tomb Citadel was considered a vehicle...
If I give his regen ability to the citadel (cause it's a vehicle), I have to apply it to one of the components correct, because "A tomb citidel is a single realm of battle tile which is composed of a power crucible, a tomb ziggurat and 2 gun emplacement mounts, which are treated seperately during the game." ? Or if I give it to the TC does that mean I can then heal any injured portion 1d3 on my turn?
Also since it's a vehicle, am I assuming correctly that I can give each of these four components a dedicated tomb spyder repair man (thus im potentially getting back a max of 5d3 wounds per turn dependent on how much they spread out their attacks etc)?
Also with Tomb Citadels 'immobile' feature, does that mean as long as you're touching the model you can attempt to attack it and deal it damage, or do the models have to be near one of the 4 targets to do so (and they hit that particular target in melee)? If units can just deal wounds to the citadel so long as they're touching, how are the wounds distributed?
Also, TC only has the combined wounds of its components correct so thus it's wounds is 60? Shame none of the components have Quantum shielding. *chuckle*
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Are Illuminor and Anrakyr that have no dynasty
A) Able to play with other dynasties as mercenaries/allies?
B) Or is it that they can only play with one another and nameless Hq's?
C) Or are they each an unspecified faction and can only go by themselves with nameless Hq support?
Everything from FW is good, except the tomb citadel. Its like a majillionty points, for a terrible buff to your army. Toholk is good for vehicle heavy armies, ad Kutlakh is good for CC armies. The tomb citadel dies when one component dies from memory, so its not as survivable as you think. Seriously, your hard nerfing yourself if you even consider it, and our army is weak as it is.
Illuminor and Anrakyr have no dynasty, but can be included in any normal dynasty army as you please. For instance, Anrakyr just roams the stars helping out whatever necron dynasty he is near, taking troops as payment for services rendered. So its not unfluffy to include him in whatever you want to. Szerath could just be oiut with whatever Dynasty you want, searching for technology etc.
I mean, the cover is nice but doable with terrains etc... Admittedly I do like the fact that your units in this will all have 5+ invul and R prot reroll of 1's which are both pretty nice...
Granted the price is a little steep at like 1000'ish points once you include the weapon emplacements and either a monolith or a sentry pylon for the docking station but if it's a big point game where you're on the defensive I think that's relatively doable. But yeah on a 2-3k game I think I could make it work if the board isn't super massive and I can get center table...
Hmm, yeah looks like each of the 4 components has a chance of a 6" explosion... The wording is vague but ima assume that its notes on it being wrecked and cant be stood on is implying to the component areas not 'oh if one spot gets destroyed no more of your models can be on the entirety of it lol'
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Does anyone know why the Power Crucible and Tomb Ziggaurant have 3+ BS if they dont have guns?
2 Gauss Pylons each with 6" 5++ bubbles will protect a fair chunk of an army, for cheaper, while doing considerably more damage. If your looking at 3-4k points then yea I suppose it would be okay, I'd rather spend my money on other stuff, 1k is alot of points for something that fragile. Your effectively spending 1k points to do what a monolith, cryptek and Night Scythe can do much more effectively, for considerably cheaper. If it was 500 points, then yes it would be viable, but at its current price point, hilariously overcosted for what its offering unfortunately, which is a shame cus I want to get one
I'll probably consider getting one if the codex release changes stuff.
Chuckled when I did the math and a TC (with Tess Destructors) + Monolith mounted was 1111 points. Boi!
But yeah, a tomb citadel is less expensive then a Gauss pylon $ wise which is also why I was thinking about it.
Granted considering the G Pylon can pretty much 1 hit titans and some other models if they dont have invul saves it kind of makes sense...
Though I dont like the fact that 'yeah if you are in range of my invul you have a 50% chance to take 1d6 mortal wounds.'
If my friend didn't just inherit a hobby store i'd probably continue buying second hand and opportunistically building my army when I found deals (still under 200$ and can basically field Brigade detachments ; Granted i'd really like more vehicles so im proxying less so I think it's inevitable i'll reach the first K of 40k within a year.) but i'll buy some new stuff through him to help support local.
Another thing, the 5++ rarely comes into play for troops, as most people save their high rend weapons for vehicles/monsters, so the save is exponentially better on vehicles. Park a couple DDA next to your Pylon and you have a much, much better short nexus than a big ol city
I Just want them to fix Toholk's weapon ability. As it is right now it does not do anything special as a unit locked in combat can not advance after pulling out of combat anyway....
Quick question, with everything being able to split fire now can I use Triarch stalker in this way?
ex: Use twin gauss or Focused Heat rays Heavy 2's to shoot at two different groups ; or Particle shredders H6 to shoot at up to 6 squads assuming in range etc. In order to proc targeting relays hit or miss?
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Also since Eternal engines and Grand illusion both go off at the beginning of the first battle round, does this mean I can have Toholk buff a vehicle and then that vehicle TP's to a new location with grand illusion?
Klowny wrote: Grand illusion is before the first battle round begins, Toholks is at the start of the first battle round. :(
Technically Grand illusion is also 'at the beginning of the first battle round' the units just move if they're going to via this mechanic 'before the first round begins'
Im fairly certain you're right but looking at the wording makes me face scrunch wanting to do the mental gymnastics and figure out an articulate explanation of why it works. If only because Toholk is blind and therefor couldn't be deceived by the visual illusion. That and he's insane. *chuckle*
Klowny wrote: Grand illusion is before the first battle round begins, Toholks is at the start of the first battle round. :(
Technically Grand illusion is also 'at the beginning of the first battle round' the units just move if they're going to via this mechanic 'before the first round begins'
Im fairly certain you're right but looking at the wording makes me face scrunch wanting to do the mental gymnastics and figure out an articulate explanation of why it works. If only because Toholk is blind and therefor couldn't be deceived by the visual illusion. That and he's insane. *chuckle*
Yea both stipulate that they happen at the start of the first battle round, but GI specifically states this happens before it begins. Yea its confusing and the wording is off, I'd personally love it to be the other way and it is quite confusing.
Is a 'hive' build where you go nothing (or almost nothing else) but scarabs and tomb spyders viable in a lower point casual game where battleforged isn't required?
I chuckled imagining an early awakening tomb world narrative game about the maintenance crew.
ex: 998 ; 1000
Scarabs 9x - 117
Scarabs 9x - 117
Scarabs 9x - 117
Scarabs 3x - 39 ; Or +6 Scarabs
Canoptek Spyder (no addons) - 8x 1 unit squads. 608 ; or -1 CS
I have a feeling if my opponent knows about CS's ability or see's me do it once they'll try shooting them down. That and the spyders are 4" slower so to keep them in that 6" resupply bases range I either have to start chaining or deliberately slowing down the charge of the scarabs. That plus the mortal wounds gamble and scarabs almost non existant saves and no ap etc...
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Yeah I think this would only really have a chance on a relatively short distance map.
You have way more scarabs, some scary looking HQ and you have some CP to play with
I mean, with 6+ saves you're gonna lose scarab bases it's just a fact so I was contemplating a build that even if they did get lost I just put them back to max ranks on my turn before they attack. But true, way more scarabs~ even more then I think I have bases for. *chuckle*
I also feel like destroyer lords lose some of their purpose if they aren't leading destroyers and am I the only one that thinks there should be a Destroyer lord (with lords will) and a destroyer overlord (with my will be done)? *chuckle* Granted if they went down that rabit hole then they'd probably need a destroyer cryptek as well.
But yeah fast leader options are kind of limited between D lords and CCB unless im putting someone in a ghost ark.
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Granted tommorows shop night is fast attack and flyers... Worse case scenario it's an early wipe for a second game.
You have way more scarabs, some scary looking HQ and you have some CP to play with
Just to be clear, Battleforged just means that everything fits into a detachment. It is required for Matched Play, but not for Narrative or Open play.
If you are doing Narrative, do whatever you feel tells the story well. You could have a Spyder as Warlord. Triarch Praetorians also didn't take the big Nap... they might be around during the awakening of a tombworld. You may have a Lord or Cryptek also awake... perhaps they awoke early for some reason.
I also feel like destroyer lords lose some of their purpose if they aren't leading destroyers
Honestly, I think they lack purpose either way. If they're babysitting destroyers than they're not making use of their melee ability and if they're using their melee ability than they're not using their aura.
Lothmar wrote: am I the only one that thinks there should be a Destroyer lord (with lords will) and a destroyer overlord (with my will be done)? *chuckle*
Honestly, I wish Overlords had never been made a thing in the first place. All they did was make actual Necron Lords completely redundant and completely pointless in every edition thereafter.
I'd much rather that Lords and Overlords became one and the same.
In the same way, I think Destroyer Lords should be made more like Overlords (so WS/BS 2+, MWBD etc.).
Troop
Necron Warrios - 20x - 240 (In front of wall gaining same invul from cryptek without having to risk d6 mortal wounds on explosion from pylon. )
**Necron Warrios - 20x - 240
**Necron Immortals 10x - 170
Elites
Triarch Stalker - Twin gauss - 181 (in range for invul from GP)
Triarch Stalker - Twin gauss - 181 (in range for invul from GP) (maybe drop one of these for 2 more dedicated repair bugs and some scarabs ; or a sentry pylon for anti air if that's heavy enough).)
Triarch Stalker - Twin gauss - 181 (in range for invul from GP)
Transport
Ghost Ark - 170 (Turned sideways as center of wall cutting off corner from rest of map)
(in range for invul from GP)
Heavy
Doomsday ark - 203 (turned sideways as left of wall) (in range for invul from GP)
Doomsday ark - 203 (turned sideways as right of the wall) (in range for invul from GP)
Canoptek Spyder + Fab claw - 84 (dedicated repair crew) (in range for invul from GP, all but it's dedicated repair guy will shift towards perimeter to hopefully get out the turn before once it reaches lower wounds since they dont have Quantum shielding to try and ignore it)
Canoptek Spyder + Fab claw - 84
Canoptek Spyder + Fab claw - 84 ; ** Canoptek Spyder + Fab claw - 84
I also feel like destroyer lords lose some of their purpose if they aren't leading destroyers
Honestly, I think they lack purpose either way. If they're babysitting destroyers than they're not making use of their melee ability and if they're using their melee ability than they're not using their aura.
Lothmar wrote: am I the only one that thinks there should be a Destroyer lord (with lords will) and a destroyer overlord (with my will be done)? *chuckle*
Honestly, I wish Overlords had never been made a thing in the first place. All they did was make actual Necron Lords completely redundant and completely pointless in every edition thereafter.
I'd much rather that Lords and Overlords became one and the same.
In the same way, I think Destroyer Lords should be made more like Overlords (so WS/BS 2+, MWBD etc.).
I think Destroyer Lords can be useful in both roles. The players in my group are pretty aggressive so I use mine as a counter assaulter at the same time using his aura for my Destroyers. I agree with you about Lords. They could've easily made the new Overlord models but kept them as Lords. In 5th and 6th I did use my Lords for Res Orb spam, though.
Nope, infact its actually quite viable tbh. I would consider dropping the GA for scarabs, they are well worth it in this edition, and synergise with the sypders well.
I also feel like destroyer lords lose some of their purpose if they aren't leading destroyers
Honestly, I think they lack purpose either way. If they're babysitting destroyers than they're not making use of their melee ability and if they're using their melee ability than they're not using their aura.
Lothmar wrote: am I the only one that thinks there should be a Destroyer lord (with lords will) and a destroyer overlord (with my will be done)? *chuckle*
Honestly, I wish Overlords had never been made a thing in the first place. All they did was make actual Necron Lords completely redundant and completely pointless in every edition thereafter.
I'd much rather that Lords and Overlords became one and the same.
In the same way, I think Destroyer Lords should be made more like Overlords (so WS/BS 2+, MWBD etc.).
The thing to remember is that the aura for the Destroyer Lord isn't really that strong and you can MWBD Destroyers anyway (I think), so use them as super beatsticks. While you won't synergize with the Heavy Destroyers, regular ones might still be close to his aura because of their range.
Klowny wrote: Nope, infact its actually quite viable tbh. I would consider dropping the GA for scarabs, they are well worth it in this edition, and synergise with the sypders well.
I know two potential people i'd play this against and I know they are both willing to field titans so this would be a good chuckle to introduce macro weapons to them.
I mainly just had the ghost ark in case I needed more vehcile wall to castle (need to research the size/dimensions on GP and set up on a board to see if this works), plus it being placed at the center helped me basically say 'ok this side needs the extra turn of Re prot this turn' to keep up the meat shield wall as long as possible and help me slow the advance of opponents on that 24"and less range from the wall area..
Admittedly though scarabs with enclosed spaces and spyders wouldn't be too bad if I field high base number squads of em but then that has me gambling my dedicated repair crews wounds... Basically it'd be a 'holddddd~' meme just waiting to release them when they get into rapid fire range of my warriors. *chuckle*
The thing to remember is that the aura for the Destroyer Lord isn't really that strong and you can MWBD Destroyers anyway (I think), so use them as super beatsticks.
That's the thing though - I don't consider Destroyer Lords to be particularly good beatsticks either. What with only having WS3+ and a reroll to-wound ability that only works when shooting, on top of only 4 attacks and the Warscythe being a poor-man's Thunderhammer, I just don't think they're a good beatstick at all.
At the very least, I don't think their price is justified for a unit with no force-multiplying ability (or which isn't using its force-multiplying ability).
Regarding Destroyers, yeah you can use MWBD on them - I just find that there are always better targets for it.
Do destroyer reroll 1's and targeting relays reroll 1's stack allowing you to reroll 1's twice? ex: if you get a 1 after rerolling the first 1 you can roll again.
Lothmar wrote: Do destroyer reroll 1's and targeting relays reroll 1's stack allowing you to reroll 1's twice? ex: if you get a 1 after rerolling the first 1 you can roll again.
Flayed ones are a much, much better option. This is because they cant be shot off the board T1, as you hold them in DS reserve (if your going second) and you deepstrike them down at the end of the phase next to obryn, then GWM them up to zandrekh who you have Grand Illusioned up the board before the game started.
20 flayed ones will do considerably more damage to most targets than lychguard, as the considerable amount of attacks is delishious. If you somehow get anrakyr up the board too....
Ooh. That is interesting. I never thought of using FO that way. That gets around the 9" charge very effectively. You only need some Scarabs to soak up the overwatch and you're good to go. I'm off to make a new list to see what I can come up with...
Requizen wrote: Dunno if it was posted here, but this is the list that came in 6th at Captial City Bloodbath.
Welcome to 8th edition, definitely different from 7th edition! No seriously, look there's a C'tan with the Wraiths now instead of a Spyder!
Cool! I guess he/she was playing objectives only, because it's a very survivable force with low hitting power. Do you know what lists it faced and what the mission were? Wasn't there a Necron player at BAO that also used a lot of Wraiths, wonder how that went?
I wonder what units the grand illusion was used on?
I have 18 Wraiths, perhaps i will try them out in the next game.
jedben1 wrote: I have got Zahndrekh and Obryon. I don't know what other unit i should use with them. So far i have tried lychguard with thm. Any ideas?
Throw in a cryptek or Orikan and use them with a 20 man warrior squad and a ghost ark and some filler and you'll be pretty set for a 1k game.
I like using Obyron to Ghostwalk shooters out of melee, then rapid fire into the enemies face and charge back in again (unless the enemy has way better melee), lather rinse repeat with 2x 4+ Re Prot phases per turn and 5+ invuls. Your ghost ark is mainly for the healing so use it as fire support or as annoyance to tie up enemies in combat by charging them then puttering out with fly on your turn and shooting. Admittedly though pulling melees out of melee to charge back in is good too cause 1'st initiative, if you're doing something like that then Praetorians might be the way to go for you cause they can shoot and melee. *** Just noticed Preatorians dont have Dynasty keyword so Obyron cant recycle them out of melee to shoot etc*
Just watch your positioning on the characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ------
Were Praetorian supposed to have the <Dynasty> keyword, or was that specifically left out so they couldn't get buffed by friendlies that buff their dynasty stuff or walk out of monoliths/invasion beams?
Praets were left out for fluff reasons, they are not aligned to any dynaasty, they are the 'police' of the necron world, they keep the dynastys in line.
Got a game in yesterday with my destroyer list and nearly tabled my opponent. The Destroyer Lord's aura really helped out and even though I agree he's over costed having having my Warlord with phase shifter and phylactery is really good IMO. Destroyers did work, period.
v0iddrgn wrote: Got a game in yesterday with my destroyer list and nearly tabled my opponent. The Destroyer Lord's aura really helped out and even though I agree he's over costed having having my Warlord with phase shifter and phylactery is really good IMO. Destroyers did work, period.
I had the exact opposite kind of game at the weekly event last night *cuts diagonal scar across four previous straight loss lines since 8th edition started*.
I got there early so I helped the shop set up etc, had three variant lists prepped and all the stuff set out and when I saw him setting up some space marines etc on his side I was like 'ok we will have a nice game of shoot and move and end in an aerial death ballet' but turns out it was just a shell game and as soon as deployments started he set down a lord of war that was transporting that stuff and that was his only deployment. *facepalm*
If I had paid attention to the defender strategem of bringing back a flier unit I might of had a chance since I managed to use my wraiths and remaining stuff to hedge him in and lock him in place while the map collapsed for 3 turns till he finally blasted through enough of one to pivot enough to move out of having been boxed in. *sigh*
As soon as I saw that level of cheese I should have been really adamant about declaration of attacks during shooting phase etc to protect my destroyer lord but I knew this wasn't gonna be a fun game and wanted it over with, but not enough to simply forfeit without taking my turn 1 cause damnit I waited all week for it. *done in less then an hour in something I usually do for 2-4 on this night with no one available to play after*
v0iddrgn wrote: Got a game in yesterday with my destroyer list and nearly tabled my opponent. The Destroyer Lord's aura really helped out and even though I agree he's over costed having having my Warlord with phase shifter and phylactery is really good IMO. Destroyers did work, period.
I had the exact opposite kind of game at the weekly event last night *cuts diagonal scar across four previous straight loss lines since 8th edition started*.
I got there early so I helped the shop set up etc, had three variant lists prepped and all the stuff set out and when I saw him setting up some space marines etc on his side I was like 'ok we will have a nice game of shoot and move and end in an aerial death ballet' but turns out it was just a shell game and as soon as deployments started he set down a lord of war that was transporting that stuff and that was his only deployment. *facepalm*
If I had paid attention to the defender strategem of bringing back a flier unit I might of had a chance since I managed to use my wraiths and remaining stuff to hedge him in and lock him in place while the map collapsed for 3 turns till he finally blasted through enough of one to pivot enough to move out of having been boxed in. *sigh*
As soon as I saw that level of cheese I should have been really adamant about declaration of attacks during shooting phase etc to protect my destroyer lord but I knew this wasn't gonna be a fun game and wanted it over with, but not enough to simply forfeit without taking my turn 1 cause damnit I waited all week for it. *done in less then an hour in something I usually do for 2-4 on this night with no one available to play after*
Blue Balled.
The competitive scene seems to suck the fun out of the game from time to time. Hopefully you can make him have blue balls when our codex comes out in a year LOL
Yeah I have told myself "if I get a number of straight losses equal to the edition im waiting till the codex". *chuckle*
Granted almost all of these have been in the 1000 area so I feel kind of burnt out on that and want to see my army in something like 2 or 3+ K so I can field some interesting combinations.
Gonna build a proxy Gauss pylon for next week since its theme is lord of war and I dont particularly like the TV. *chuckle*
Lothmar wrote: Yeah I have told myself "if I get a number of straight losses equal to the edition im waiting till the codex". *chuckle*
Granted almost all of these have been in the 1000 area so I feel kind of burnt out on that and want to see my army in something like 2 or 3+ K so I can field some interesting combinations.
Gonna build a proxy Gauss pylon for next week since its theme is lord of war and I dont particularly like the TV. *chuckle*
Its an uphill battle, but we can win. Just gotta have a clear game plan in mind. Generalist armies seem to be very underwhelming.
I have always felt like necrons right now need to be more vehicle heavy than anything else. Our troops just cant cut it, even with the cool RP rule they are just priced a bit to high and also our supporting units/vehicles are also priced higher than should be. But i have had some great success with running the big pylon as well as two Darks and anni barges. My current list i am working on will have two sentinels and two tesserak arks to replace the barges and swarm spam and a cheap lord.
Blueguy203 wrote: My current list i am working on will have two sentinels and two tesserak arks to replace the barges and swarm spam and a cheap lord.
There is a lot of ways to get the fire power of our Infantry units but In the form Vehicles.
14 warriors cost the price of a Ghost ark and for an extra 33pts you can put a Heavy D3/6 gun that could possibly do quite a lot of damage and still have the fire power of 10 warriors.
Tomb Blades (while not a Vehicle) is still fast and a bit more durable. and it can easily fill the Immortals spot in both Gauss and Tesla. You could also use Tesla Anni Barges if you want both Gauss and Tesla.
The Meta will never balance out. WAAC/Power gamer's go either all Infantry (i.e. horde) or all Vehicle (i.e. high toughness, multi-wound). That way they can, in theory, ignore a particular part of an opponent's weaponry. This makes for stale armies and bland boring net-lists that none want to play with or against. Necron infantry is good IMO, Warriors have never been cheaper and Tesla carbines got fixed so they aren't strictly worse than other options. The only things I would change to help us out in the long term would be to make Spyders more durable, give us good artifacts and strategems, and reduce points costs on some of the more egregious offenders (a la Destroyers). ALSO fix Night Scythe.
Yeah, I mean immortals are good troops, warriors I pass on every time. They are cheaper than they've ever been yes, but they are also worse than previous edition. Not doing enough damage, because the game has gone from a couple of wounds that guass could deal with 20-40w monstrosities. Sure they are good against infantry, but again, Tesla immortals are better at infantry killing.
I run my crons with vehicles. Tomb blades are actually very effective, granted they are eyewateringly overcosted but this can be changed.
The only reason I have not been tabled on a few seperate occasions is because necron durability is now in our vehicles, not our troops.
So messing around with what I have I wanted to make a vehicle necron list
spearhead detachment +1cp
Toholk the blind
2x triark stalkers hgc
2x aa barges
3xddarks
1xmonolith
Comes to 1809/1850
Put Toholk in a corner blocked off with the monolith and super up the monoliths living metal. Stalkers and aa barges move for objectives when needed but other wise sit with everything else to pew pew at, movies g forward when needed because short range. Darks light something up a turn.
The monolith needs to be midfield, it's range of its guns preclude it from being a backfield camper. Also it will draw fire (hopefully) if you dS it into his their face. You need scarab screens for your DDA, and stalkers as the stalkers don't have fly.
I'm playing a game at my Wargaming club tomorrow and I am going to bring Tomb Blades. I usually have my Tomb Blades in units of 7-8 with twin Gauss and 5+ invul save.
I am wondering though is there a way to "break" the 5+ invul save? Say if I loaded 7 TBs with just Gauss and 1 TB with Gauss and the 5+ invul am I able to put all my opponents shots on the 5+ invul TB or do all of them need to have the 5+ invul?
My plan is to have 1-2 with 5+ invul and the rest with just Gauss and every time I take a would I take it on the 5+ and if I lose a wound or model am I able to put it on a model that doesn't have the 5+ invul?
I just want to find a way to save on points and find a way to make the TBs as resilient as possible without needing to spend an extra 10-40pts.
I'm pretty sure thats not the way it is. You are free to choose which models take the wound, but once they do, they suffer the damage done too.
By the rules, you have to roll saves one at a time, most of the times however you can roll them all at once.
If you have eg 2 models with 5++ , out of 6 total, and receive 3 las cannon wounds, you'd roll the first one on a 5++ model (it would make the most sense), and if it passes, you get to roll for the same model again if you like. If it goes through but suffers only 1 damage, you have to put wounds on this model until its gone. The moment you fail a 5++ save, you lose that specific model with the save though.
It's still wel worth having only some of the models with the invul, they are likely to die from small arms fire anyway.
I'm pretty sure thats not the way it is. You are free to choose which models take the wound, but once they do, they suffer the damage done too.
By the rules, you have to roll saves one at a time, most of the times however you can roll them all at once.
If you have eg 2 models with 5++ , out of 6 total, and receive 3 las cannon wounds, you'd roll the first one on a 5++ model (it would make the most sense), and if it passes, you get to roll for the same model again if you like. If it goes through but suffers only 1 damage, you have to put wounds on this model until its gone. The moment you fail a 5++ save, you lose that specific model with the save though.
It's still wel worth having only some of the models with the invul, they are likely to die from small arms fire anyway.
Okay that makes a lot more sense to me now
I usually have my TBs in cover or on top of buildings/terrain so I usually have the survive for at least 4 turns.
I think I'll load 3 with the 5++ invul and 2 with the 3+ because if in cover they will then be 2+ so I'll have the option to be as resilient as possible as I can then decide to take a normal Dave or the invul. and I'll have 2-3 normal TB with just Gauss to save points.
Thanks for the pointing out where I was wrong and clearing up my confusion
I had a chuckle to myself when thinking about Canoptek scarabs 3+ BS cause I was like~
"They need a wargear option. Seriously, if they dont have a ranged attack why give them a BS or that level. Make it a 6+ like other non shooters and save me a point or something... Maybe a particle caster or a tesla pistol." *Snrk* "Lightning bugs."
Klowny wrote: They're not infantry so they have to all be in and 50% obscured yeah?
Yeah they do, I usually put them behind windows and up on top of buildings with lips/walls so at least the base and guns are blocked giving them 50% obscuring for the +1 save.
I need some help on tactics against tanks.
I am against rhinos (easy), razorbacks (can be dealt with), baal predators (annoying when against my infantry but killable) and whirlwinds (annoying) plus a dreadnought.
Can you guys reply with troops and lists that you think can kill these things!
Some MWBD heavy destroyers would do nicely against any of these.
Apart from that. I like the combo of a THG stalker and the Tesseract Ark.
Lods of Scarabs can take any but the dread out of the game if they aren't dealt with and a Sentry pylon has also got some nice weapon options.
You could also try the THG stalker + Ddarks combo.
Sentry pylons from FW are a cheap answer, 2x DDA and a THGC stalker are another good combo, a TA deals with both infantry and vehicles very well, albeit at an increased cost.
DDA can deal with their big guns at the back with ease, as they outrange the majority of weapons. 2 will cripple/kill 2 tanks a turn, and a stalker will guarantee one dead if you shoot it first. DS sentry pylons with the heat ray (D6 shots is always better than D3/2) are effective, but you have to have support/play smart with them or else they are dead after alpha against certain armies.
Nagerash wrote: Some MWBD heavy destroyers would do nicely against any of these.
Apart from that. I like the combo of a THG stalker and the Tesseract Ark.
Lods of Scarabs can take any but the dread out of the game if they aren't dealt with and a Sentry pylon has also got some nice weapon options.
You could also try the THG stalker + Ddarks combo.
I would do this but it has a lot of FW units in there that i don't have. Will try to though!
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Klowny wrote: Sentry pylons from FW are a cheap answer, 2x DDA and a THGC stalker are another good combo, a TA deals with both infantry and vehicles very well, albeit at an increased cost.
DDA can deal with their big guns at the back with ease, as they outrange the majority of weapons. 2 will cripple/kill 2 tanks a turn, and a stalker will guarantee one dead if you shoot it first. DS sentry pylons with the heat ray (D6 shots is always better than D3/2) are effective, but you have to have support/play smart with them or else they are dead after alpha against certain armies.
Again, a few FW troops. Also, when you said 'TA' did you mean Tesseract Ark? I will definitely use DDA in the future as i have got one on my 40K shelf! Thanks for your help!
Just had my first competitve game leading up to the tournament, faced a triple dreadknight/stromraven GK list.
I got tabled end of turn 3....
Got the worst deployment map, the triangular hammer and anvil one, didn't get first turn, my pylon whiffed repeatedly, and I also made numerous tactical errors, primarily GI my TB and immortals when I should have used it to reposition my scarabs into a better position for my army.
Really good learning curve, I know better for next time. Going second really hurt, and the way I redeployed my tomb blades meant I left enough space for TWO dreadknights to DS behind them and wipe them T1. I feel really stupid now haha.
My pylon got a 1 for its first shot against the stormraven, so I CP rerolled it....... and got a 1, meaning it only did 7 wounds to the storm raven, as I got a 1 for the D3 wounds.
DDA whiffed first turn, Im dropping it now for a TA, as I realised you can give it its D3 from Toholk T1, before GI Toholk away if necessary, as they both happen at the start of the first battle round. Had I supported the immortals with Toholk I could have gotten more back from RP.
Grey Knights as a faction really hurt my list, I knew it was an uphill battle T1, D3 damage army wide is nasty.
Im now dropping the DDA for a TA, as the immobility was really painful, I never got to use the flayer array, and D3 shots just doesn't cut it. With good positioning the TA can be in solar fire range t1, which is 48 inches but with a 5++, QS, and D3 from living metal its a much tougher nut to crack, as it also is T7.
This thursdays theme is Lord of War but im having trouble picking a build that feels like its taking advantage of Gauss pylons abilities at only 1000 points (since I should put stuff with gauntum shielding nearby and stuff that doesn't usually get invul saves and can then maybe negate the bada boom of mortal wounds via Gauss pylons explosion. )
note - dont particularly like Obelisk or Tesseract Vault. Granted I could see them being useful maybe against the right compositions but I think Gauss pylon is the most versatile even if it is immobile.
Klowny wrote: Flayed ones are a much, much better option. This is because they cant be shot off the board T1, as you hold them in DS reserve (if your going second) and you deepstrike them down at the end of the phase next to obryn, then GWM them up to zandrekh who you have Grand Illusioned up the board before the game started.
20 flayed ones will do considerably more damage to most targets than lychguard, as the considerable amount of attacks is delishious. If you somehow get anrakyr up the board too....
Mathematically FO's are notably worse against anything T4 4+ or better. T2/3 or 5/6+ FO's are better. Point for Point LG are vastly superior.
All of the below assume MWBD and an extra attack from Anrakyr. LG are better (and FAR more durable) against anything but a swarm army.
These all assume no invuln yes? lych's effectiveness drops off when you factor in invulnerable saves :(
Shouldn't a straight comparison not include the buffs from the HQ's? I realise lych are much more effective with it, but to get lych to work you are looking at anrakyr, a deciever, obryn and zandrekh to get charges off, otherwise your footslogging it, which means you will maybe get 1 turn of combat in end of game vs t1 of the FO?
They become alot closer when you do a full points comparison, there is no buffs and you factor in invuln saves.
Klowny wrote: Flayed ones are a much, much better option. This is because they cant be shot off the board T1, as you hold them in DS reserve (if your going second) and you deepstrike them down at the end of the phase next to obryn, then GWM them up to zandrekh who you have Grand Illusioned up the board before the game started.
20 flayed ones will do considerably more damage to most targets than lychguard, as the considerable amount of attacks is delishious. If you somehow get anrakyr up the board too....
Mathematically FO's are notably worse against anything T4 4+ or better. T2/3 or 5/6+ FO's are better. Point for Point LG are vastly superior.
All of the below assume MWBD and an extra attack from Anrakyr. LG are better (and FAR more durable) against anything but a swarm army.
Don't forget that Lychguard are slow (5" move), have no deep strike ability, and become significantly less effective if you give them an invuln save to get them up field. You are basically forced to take either the deceiver or a night scythe to make LG viable so you are essentially increasing the cost of the unit by 170 pts or so.
They may mathhammer as more effective in combat, but they have to survive till they get there. Much less of an issue for FOs and Praets. You cannot shoot what isn't on the board.
Ok so I used torblinds calculator, although I'm confused as to why it seperates Lychguards damage against T4, as the damage should be the same as T5-6, but oh well its a handy eyeball tool anyway.
Here we go, straight comparison with no buffs, both squad are at full size so assuming charge:
Lychguard on left, FO right
Spoiler:
No invuln
5++
4++
But the FO are more expensive, so assume you give anrakyr to the lych to make them comparable:
(FO on left, Lych w/Anrakyr on right)
Spoiler:
No invlun
5++
4++
Not as different as you might think, raw damage wise.
Basically lychguard are better in most cases where there is a 2+ save, but overall, against anything 3+ or worse, flayed ones pull ahead on damage over a wider variety of T/Sv characteristics.
Then you factor in the variables and it gets even murkier.
Sure the lych can do alot more damage in some cases, but they have a 5" M and no DS, so they have to footslog it up the board facing rounds of shooting before they get to their intended target. I know they might have MWBD, but the extra 1" isn't that phenomenal. Any smart general will be looking at 11 warscythes trudging up the board and will put all of their multi damage guns at them, and then bye bye lychguard. Especially considering you either have your warlord in there, or at least a a character that can give more VP.
FO on the other hand can do alot of damage, unsupported by HQ's, can DS t1, sure they might not make the charge, and they're left out in the open and they could die, but if the charge gets off they are pulling ahead in effectiveness already.
Its basically a choice of 'do I hope for a random uncontrollable variable happening (getting the charge off) that I can assist with CP, or do I hope for an uncontrollable variable happening (opponent skill/capability) that I have no control over whatsoever?'
I personally would go for the one that I have control over.
It caps damage at 1 for T3 and T4 as these are typically 1W models, it's all explained in the text in the box and you can click a button to toggle the behavior. (if you want to show full damage even against T3 and T4)
Keep in mind that the "footslogging across the board" getting g shot to bits is only a problem if you bring them vs a full gun line army. Any cc units would have problems at that point.
If you expect to face a gun line, FO are more viable than Lych if you didn't ready decide to bring Zahndrek/obyron to get them into a charge position. But Praetorians might be better than FO, jumping from cover to cover and being able to more effectively deal with T4/5 3+ saves.
Quite a few armies have ds units or at least 1 cc unit. At that point having a unit of lych as countercharge or a "whack a mole-unit"™ would increase their effectiveness greatly and reduce their weaknesses at the same time.
Against high invul saves fo would prob do better than lych, but you don't want to put them against such a target either. Having some teslamortals are much more effective at that point (or maybe deathmarks/meteor throwing c'tan)
If you're facing harlequins for instance. Their entire army has a 4++. So a few units of teslamortals and some FO would have a lot of fun. Against space marines, praets/lych +gaussmortals will be more effective.
Basically my point is one is never always better to take than the other. It depends on what you expect to face and how you deal with it. But you probably already knew that.
Yeah, I mean if your looking at a competitive sense where you face a multitude of armies and want a good CC threat, FO cover a wider variety of targets, are more flexible in their deployment and use vs lychguard.
If you know your playing against x army then sure, lych can and will outperform FO when they are against what theyre meant to, but as will FO when theyre doing what they love to do.
But if you have no idea what you are facing, or facing multiple armies, FO win out IMO.
Lych are a scary countercharge unit, but they bank on the enemy coming to you, which will happen sometimes, but again dedicated CC units will shred through them, either by WOD or by having good invuln saves that the lych wont have coupled with multi damage attacks.
In the latter case FO win out again due to damage not spilling over, so less will die to muilti damage weapons, but more will die to WOD, so its a 50/50 on that front.
They both have their uses, strengths and weaknesses, but my point is for a TAC/comp list FO are more versatile, need less buffing to be efficient while having similar damage outputs.
You're right that if you don't know what you're up against fo might do better than lychguard, but I really don't like banking on that 9" charge. Even with a Cp reroll. If the enemy catches them out of cover they will die very quickly. And I try to avoid having only one unit in their deployment zone. Target saturation is the way to go for Necrons imo. I try to get the enemy to make mistakes and not ff units one at a time. And imofo are just too expensive to have them shot off the board before they can do anything 50% of the time.
I'd must sooner go for praetorians with void blades as a nice best of both approach. More attacks and movement than lychguard, and more durable than fo +they don't really need much supporting.
I agree, I don't actually run either, both are too high a points investment, and I prefer shooting over CC, as necrons have almost no penalty for getting into combat with our shooting as the good stuff is all FLY. Hopefully FO get a points decrease, and lych get some sort of mobility increase
It might feel tempting to hold back a bunch of flayed ones to maintain the threat of dropping them in, but the way things are going it seems we need all hands on deck from the beginning to even have a fighting chance in the first place.
I think there is a case for a t2/t3 DS, unless you also have things like the deciever to GI say 20 immortals into RF range (& cover preferably), then DS in the flayed ones, light up the units with the immortals and then charge in with the FO. Pretty brutal alpha from the infantry side, if you had some big cannons pounding on the backlines it could be a good combo.
After my game last night, and using your awesome calculator Tor I've realised that TA are hands down better in every sense than DDA. At every range, every mobility option the TA out dakka their index brethren. D3 shots just doesn't cut it if they roll poorly, hell even D6 isnt good when you roll poorly, but D3 is consistantly worse.
The TA can move and shoots its main profile (albeit with a -1) but even so it still puts out more damage than a DDA, it can also advance and shoot its mid profile, and not worry too much about charges due to its fleshbane flamer (seriously how good is that profile). It also has a 5++, and T7. The tesla, like all tesla, outdamages the gauss more often than not.
I'm going to build mine up in time for the SHO, and give it Toholk's D3 to its living metal, meaning it should be a fairly durable little gunboat.
This comes to exactly 2k. I think right now RP is sort of a weakness. For units that have it, you are either paying too much for RP or the units just aren't killy enough. I figured, let's run a list where we minimize our RP risk.
Here you've got 6 of the dda main gun, which evens out for shot randomness if you have to split a bunch of them to shoot down one thing, and you've still got the firepower of 60 necron warriors. The pylon always goes into reserves, and you choose First Strike and Marked Unit secondaries so hopefully you get two of them turn 1 when the pylon fires. The scarabs screen you against drop armies, assault armies, and mortal wound spam.
As someone mentioned a few posts ago, sometimes you roll a 1 for shots and reroll a 1. Those situations are fairly rare but they do happen and there's no way around it. it would be cool if they built synergy for random shots, like a character that adds +1 to the random shots generated for things within X inches, or reroll random shots, or etc. Literally any kind of synergy since random number of shots seems to be a core mechanic with no real advantage. The things with random shots aren't really cheaper points wise than just paying for more shots, either in the Necron army itself or comparing it to stuff in other armies.
Yeah that was me last night vs a nasty GK list. Wasn't fun, especially after I already lost 1st turn, deployment etc haha.
That list does even out the damage, its still only 2 on average, you could bring 5 Tesseract Arks for a better gun system, but I suppose thats quite cost prohibitive
This comes to exactly 2k. I think right now RP is sort of a weakness. For units that have it, you are either paying too much for RP or the units just aren't killy enough. I figured, let's run a list where we minimize our RP risk.
Here you've got 6 of the dda main gun, which evens out for shot randomness if you have to split a bunch of them to shoot down one thing, and you've still got the firepower of 60 necron warriors. The pylon always goes into reserves, and you choose First Strike and Marked Unit secondaries so hopefully you get two of them turn 1 when the pylon fires. The scarabs screen you against drop armies, assault armies, and mortal wound spam.
As someone mentioned a few posts ago, sometimes you roll a 1 for shots and reroll a 1. Those situations are fairly rare but they do happen and there's no way around it. it would be cool if they built synergy for random shots, like a character that adds +1 to the random shots generated for things within X inches, or reroll random shots, or etc. Literally any kind of synergy since random number of shots seems to be a core mechanic with no real advantage. The things with random shots aren't really cheaper points wise than just paying for more shots, either in the Necron army itself or comparing it to stuff in other armies.
Thoughts?
Huh, that's quite similar to a variation of an idea for a potential list-
Karhedron wrote: The release schedule I have seen has Necrons in December so we get a shiny new Codex just in time for Christmas.
Got a link for that seen schedule? (All the things I'd seen so far had listed only marine books coming out this year)
Yup, here it is. I can't vouch for the provenance so take with a pinch of salt.
This can officially be laid to rest as a false rumor. From Warhammer Community:
We also heard what the next three codexes will be following the release of Death Guard and Adeptus Mechanicus in September. Before the end of November, xenos fans will be pleased to see some of the galaxy’s alien races get their codexes for the new edition with Codex: Craftworlds and Codex: Tyranids, while Codex: Astra Militarum lets fans of the Imperium’s vast human armies create thematic armies from their favourite Regiment.
Speaking of RP being a hindrance, I think too many people rely on it, which is a bad thing. I look at it as more of an added bonus. We already know that players will focus fire large blobs to eliminate them from the board, thus getting no RP.
I toyed with the idea of 10 man squads, making use of Ghost Ark's transport capabilities and leap frogging in and out of the Arks for RP. My biggest issue with running large blobs of Warriors is that you are going to get focus fired. It's inevitable. If you have a 20 man blob, killing 15 will automatically cause your last 5 to run, unless you spend CP. You are effectively losing the toughness of 5 units. With 10 Warrior squads, you will still get focus fired. You will still lose squads. But every model will do their part. Losing 9 of the 10 is still a 33% chance the last one won't run. It also increases the amount of overkill shot at units. It's much more difficult to wipe out two squads of 10 rather than one squad of 20 Warriors due to the overshooting required for each.
Just my two cents. Maybe it doesn't work in reality but it seems a better option in my noggin.
Maybe just maybe we might see some new models with our late release. Get rid of the finecrap characters. A plastic Silent King that could go toe to toe with Bobby G?
A man can dream.
Well, a silent king is powerful yes, but what has unimaginable power, that could also fight bobby G? A C'tan that has found its shards....
The model would have more design capabilities, instead of just another necron with extra bits holding a SoL/Warscythe (my buddy pointed out necron HQ's are just 'how many different ways can we pose a fancy necron holding a warscythe' )
But something that looks like the yncarne (ectoplasm swirling wise) has unlimited design potential, and tabletop power options depending on how many shards it has found. Could spend CP to find more in a game for example and bring it to its max level power which would be very strong.
Hoodwink wrote: Speaking of RP being a hindrance, I think too many people rely on it, which is a bad thing. I look at it as more of an added bonus. We already know that players will focus fire large blobs to eliminate them from the board, thus getting no RP.
I toyed with the idea of 10 man squads, making use of Ghost Ark's transport capabilities and leap frogging in and out of the Arks for RP. My biggest issue with running large blobs of Warriors is that you are going to get focus fired. It's inevitable. If you have a 20 man blob, killing 15 will automatically cause your last 5 to run, unless you spend CP. You are effectively losing the toughness of 5 units. With 10 Warrior squads, you will still get focus fired. You will still lose squads. But every model will do their part. Losing 9 of the 10 is still a 33% chance the last one won't run. It also increases the amount of overkill shot at units. It's much more difficult to wipe out two squads of 10 rather than one squad of 20 Warriors due to the overshooting required for each.
Just my two cents. Maybe it doesn't work in reality but it seems a better option in my noggin.
If the Ghost Ark becomes Open Topped again I'm for it 100%. Otherwise I'm gonna pass.
My biggest issue with running large blobs of Warriors is that you are going to get focus fired. It's inevitable. If you have a 20 man blob, killing 15 will automatically cause your last 5 to run, unless you spend CP. You are effectively losing the toughness of 5 units. With 10 Warrior squads, you will still get focus fired. You will still lose squads. But every model will do their part. Losing 9 of the 10 is still a 33% chance the last one won't run. It also increases the amount of overkill shot at units. It's much more difficult to wipe out two squads of 10 rather than one squad of 20 Warriors due to the overshooting required for each.
Just my two cents. Maybe it doesn't work in reality but it seems a better option in my noggin.
Hoodwink wrote: As long as it keeps the firepower of 10 Warriors, I doubt it's going open topped any time soon.
Its always had the firepower of 10 warriors?
I think the big difference right now for 8th is they seem to be reducing open topped vehicles. The ones that are open topped are relatively low firepower since you can fire out of it. Getting 20 shots in rapid fire range is some pretty potent firepower if you also get another 20 shots from inside.
I just want to see Arks capable of carrying "Necron Infantry". Just the thought of carrying Nemesor up to the front lines to jump out and have Oberon and a squad of LG teleport in melee range to an enemy is terrifying.
Hoodwink wrote: "...which must be Warriors or characters" well would you look at that.
Still not good since a Warrior unit is 10 man minimum and you'd only be using it for 1 or 2 characters :(
There is the potent but pricey Grand Illusion play you can pull, in which you'd forward deploy the ark with Nemesor and HQs of choice and then pull up Obyron and lychguard. Possibly seasoned with rapid fire warriors if you roll high enough for GI
Our boards aren't super big so I think I can set up so my stalker can get into range first turn, but that build cant afford the TP matrix for the two pylons and the gauss pylon (not without downgrading to a worse weapon at which point im not as confident about being in range turn 1 for the reroll 1's against targets...). So that means i'd have to set up my Gauss pylon turn 1 which means if im landing my Sentries to be in 6" of GP for that invul save then I dont necessarily have the gaurantee of the reroll on damage due to 18" range....
Hmm, just noticed I forgot to include the 10 points on the GP on the second list cause of the third Sentry... Hmmm, do I downgrade one of the weapons and buy the TP matrix for perfect positioning but at slightly worse wound potential... *rubs chin*
Well, everyone else is getting new stuff. Don't want to start wishlisting in the tactics thread, but maybe we'll get a new infantry transport?
For the time being, yeah, Ghost Ark + Zahndrekh + Obyron + Deceiver is the only "good" way to get Lychguard into combat.
Unless they get drastic point reductions this December, way too expensive to be practical.
Ehhh I don't think the ghost ark is necessary, sure it reduces the charge but at the end of the day the combo is already lubriciously expensive.
GK get personal teleporter's on all units, why cant the most advanced technological race get a unit upgrade for x points. THAT would make the necrons much more viable, if we had army wide precision DS.
The thing I mostly don't get is our IS. Somehow wraiths get it to work on a 3++,but our characters are fumbling around with a 4++ which makes no sense.
The same for the "dispersion" shield. It used to have an awesome fluffy bounce back rule which made it logical why it wasn't a 3++. After that we had the same technology as the lesser races with a 3++ shield with no bouncy, and now the lesser races have even surpassed us since we have a 4++ again without anything special...
The joys of playing an unloved faction in the universe I suppose. We have been around a while so we have a range of models which isn't too bad, hopefully we get new ones come the release of the codex.
Lads, what are we going to do. All I want from GW is for them to give us a Codex that is not OP or UP but balanced and gives all of our units a reason to be played cause atm we are easily the worst/hardest army to play/master in 8th edition.
Also, from my point of view, in 7th everyone was playing the Decurion and now in 8th people are still doing the same thing by playing with only a few selected models
For example;
Spoiler:
1. I don't remember seeing anyone ever talk about Trazyn or even having him on a list since 8th has dropped.
2. All our named HQs have crazy abilities but we pay a fortune to use them which handicaps our lists as we constantly have to decide in either quality or quantity and it's really hard to find a balance.
3. Our strongest Vehicle(s) that are not FW is the DDA or Triarch Stalker and I think everyone has become to realise that the DDA is basically a one trick pony. You either do the damage you want or it does none at all. We also heavily rely on FW models because our Index models are terrible meaning half the time we can't even play our army because some shops deny the use of FW meaning were left with mediocre vehicles that are somewhat good thanks to QS.
4. While RP is now more fluffy and accurate it doesn't work well on the table top. Nearly everyone knows how to take care of RP now meaning it's easier for our opponents to counter what we have and it's harder for us to survive the long game when we are supposed to be the best long game army due to our supposed resilience.
5. When we talk about our CC options it literally all goes like this ; Lychguard -> Praetorians -> Flayed Ones -> Scarabs. So were basically trading our real CC units for meat shields that are only ok in CC but do well due to numbers. No one plays Wraiths anymore so no point bringing them up.
6. We have no way of denying pysk powers bar paying anywhere between 80-180 points to bring models that can deny 1 pysk power for an extra 5pts. So we basically have to pay extra points just to stop a stupid pysk power or bring Scarab Spam to soak up some of the pysk BS. Tbh tho, i wouldn't mind the pysk phase if we had something to do during it but we basically sit there and let our opponents dick on us and tell us it's "fun" and that our RP abilities make up for our lack of Pysk powers.
7. The way our transportation works is literally the worst In all of 40k. I know some armies can't take transports or anything along those lines but I rather have no way of transportation then to only have 1-3 models that allow us to transport certain units making it really hard to get synergy. Like, why does the GA only transport Warriors? There has to be another Ark of some sort that can transport units likes Lychguard up the Field. Oh, and don't get me started on the Tomb World bs that affects the Mono and Night scythe.
8. We have no optional equipment bar a few melee and shooting weapons. Our war gear for our HQs is terrible.
9. Watching a unit with several wounds and RP getting wiped out is literally worse then stubbing your baby toe into something. I honestly want Destroyers to lose RPtbh. At least then they wouldn't be seen as a threat as no one would worry about them coming back (not like they do anyway, there always the 1st unit my opponents focuses their fire on).
10. Interms of points per model and points per unit we are literally paying gold to field a mediorc army that finds it's hard to survive against the majority of 40K.
I don't mean to rant or anything but it literally feels like GW is punishing us for how good they made Necros in 7th and because of how much gak they got from people who bitched about Necrons in 7th. It is like they are afraid to give us anything in case other players start bitching and moaning again. I suppose it is easier to deny an army it true power rather then list to people bitch about people playing OP plastic/resin/finecast toys.
I know this isn't the thread for gak posting and I apologise Skoffs for it but this is literally the best place the find Necron players and I can't be the only one out of us that feels the way I am feeling.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we were the last to get a Codex.
I think you are right, and I think it's been pretty plain to most for a while now.
Problem number 2 was that even in 7th we weren't even a competitive army (rarely featured in top 10, which was all eldar anyway). Its just that for the average player it was an easy codex to play against other average players, just march up, survive, and shoot. This caused a negative image on necrons that was based to a large degree in general players incompetence, not codex strength, hurting us now in 8th even more as its surely taken into account when GW balances the indeces and codeces (can't have unhappy customers).
torblind wrote: I think you are right, and I think it's been pretty plain to most for a while now.
Problem number 2 was that even in 7th we weren't even a competitive army (rarely featured in top 10, which was all eldar anyway). Its just that for the average player it was an easy codex to play against other average players, just march up, survive, and shoot. This caused a negative image on necrons that was based to a large degree in general players incompetence, not codex strength, hurting us now in 8th even more as its surely taken into account when GW balances the indeces and codeces (can't have unhappy customers).
In my local meta , so about 30 people who play averagly every 2 weeks, I am the only Necron person in the group (bar my friend but he just started the game and is using my models) and nearly all the veterans have a problem with me when I play them. There faces light up like fire when they see my RP units go to 1-2 models but once I roll my RP and get a few back they just spit hot gak at me and deem that RP breaks necrons and makes them the hardest army to play against. However, I literally won like 3 out of 9 games vs them and it's always the Vets that bitch to me while newer players are like "omg, that's so cool. So it's basically like a save that can't be denied?"
2 guyd won't play me because I have Necrons, they won't even look at my army or my games. It's ridiculously how up tight people get over us playing with toys that have a cool abilities that works in the wrong phase (imagine how strong RP would be if we could RP on our turn and opponents turns?).
I agree with your comments on 7th, I still found Necrosn to be an "okay" army to play even if using a Decurion with the 4+ re-rolling 1s for RP. Fair enough it could be a bit much at times but it's our armies special rule and the hate people gave it was really unnecessary. Then again tho, we were the 1st army to get a Codex in 7th and because of us every army had a Decurion because everyone was bitching so much. So, in a way it is GW fault that 7th was so broken because everyone wanted there army to be more broken then the Necrons.
In terms of 8th editin I have actually been looking at other armies to play because of how much gak I get for playing them. Even if it's a fun list they think it's OP and not fun to play against and it just ruins my mood when I don't even get a hand shake or GG after the game. Even if I lose I still show sportsman ship but a lot of people don't give it back to me.
Maybe my "hate" is stirred up by my local meta but I can imagine a lot of people are dealing with this as well.
Also, from my point of view, in 7th everyone was playing the Decurion and now in 8th people are still doing the same thing by playing with only a few selected models
I'd actually say that things are far worse now than in 7th. The Decurion guaranteed that you'd be using a specific core of units, however, it also gave you opportunities to use one or more groups of other units as well (you could go Destroyer Wing, you could have Wraiths, Spiders and Scarabs, you could have Praetorians and a Stalker etc.). I'd say that there was actually more encouragement to use different units in 7th than there is now.
(To be clear, I think Necrons were very much overpowered in 7th - I just don't think unit diversity was an issue.)
1. I don't remember seeing anyone ever talk about Trazyn or even having him on a list since 8th has dropped.
Yep. That's because GW doesn't learn and keep making the same three mistakes that cripple him:
1) He needs to be worth taking in the first place. As it is, he costs more than a regular Overlord yet all he gets for that is a worse weapon. He needs to at least be on par with a standard Overlord in terms of buffs and damage (or else have other tricks to make up the difference).
2) Where are his tricks? He is supposed to have the greatest collection of artefacts in the universe, yet all he brings with him is a weapon that would embarrass a guardsman. Where are his artefacts? Where is his Loki-esque trickery?
3) When he was introduced in 5th, you could get characters for about 25pts. Now those same characters cost 4-5 times that. If Trazyn is going to replace those then he needs to get something really spectacular out of it. As it is, he's barely better (and might even be worse) than the characters he body-hops into. Perhaps he shouldn't be limited to characters - if he could body-hop into Lychguard and Praetorians then that would give him something of an edge.
2. All our named HQs have crazy abilities but we pay a fortune to use them which handicaps our lists as we constantly have to decide in either quality or quantity and it's really hard to find a balance.
I think the issue is that the aforementioned abilities are 'crazy' as opposed to 'useful'. They also tend to be rather niche - like Stormlord's Flayed One buff, which isn't impressive to begin with and also doesn't gel with anything else he does.
3. Our strongest Vehicle(s) that are not FW is the DDA or Triarch Stalker and I think everyone has become to realise that the DDA is basically a one trick pony. You either do the damage you want or it does none at all. We also heavily rely on FW models because our Index models are terrible meaning half the time we can't even play our army because some shops deny the use of FW meaning were left with mediocre vehicles that are somewhat good thanks to QS.
I'd also add that we shouldn't have to use FW models in the first place.
4. While RP is now more fluffy and accurate it doesn't work well on the table top. Nearly everyone knows how to take care of RP now meaning it's easier for our opponents to counter what we have and it's harder for us to survive the long game when we are supposed to be the best long game army due to our supposed resilience.
It also forces our already-expensive army to max out on squad-sizes, whereas an MSU approach would have helped us greatly, I think.
Also, I think our characters really should have got RPs in some form.
5. When we talk about our CC options it literally all goes like this ; Lychguard -> Praetorians -> Flayed Ones -> Scarabs. So were basically trading our real CC units for meat shields that are only ok in CC but do well due to numbers. No one plays Wraiths anymore so no point bringing them up.
Also, the Destroyer Lord should be out melee-beast HQ, yet he only has WS3+.
6. We have no way of denying pysk powers bar paying anywhere between 80-180 points to bring models that can deny 1 pysk power for an extra 5pts. So we basically have to pay extra points just to stop a stupid pysk power or bring Scarab Spam to soak up some of the pysk BS. Tbh tho, i wouldn't mind the pysk phase if we had something to do during it but we basically sit there and let our opponents dick on us and tell us it's "fun" and that our RP abilities make up for our lack of Pysk powers.
This seems like exactly the sort of thing C'tan should be doing. Probably Crypteks as well.
7. The way our transportation works is literally the worst In all of 40k. I know some armies can't take transports or anything along those lines but I rather have no way of transportation then to only have 1-3 models that allow us to transport certain units making it really hard to get synergy. Like, why does the GA only transport Warriors? There has to be another Ark of some sort that can transport units likes Lychguard up the Field. Oh, and don't get me started on the Tomb World bs that affects the Mono and Night scythe.
Remember when the Night Scythe deployment was an advantage instead of a crippling disadvantage?
8. We have no optional equipment bar a few melee and shooting weapons. Our war gear for our HQs is terrible.
Our HQ wargear is indeed abysmal. Especially given that it was supposed to be the main place where our army had actual options and customisation.
I think the most annoying part though is that even the gear we do get is awful. The Warscythe is little better than a bread-knife, the Staff of Light is overpriced and just meh in general and then we have a choice of two different poor-man's weapons. The Resurrection Orb is one-use-only, because of course it bloody is. And the Phylactery can't be taken if you take a Resurrection Orb for no discernible reason.
Also, anyone remember when we had different flavours of Crypteks that did interesting things? As opposed to having ones that just ape the old Resurrection Orbs (back when they were good).
9. Watching a unit with several wounds and RP getting wiped out is literally worse then stubbing your baby toe into something. I honestly want Destroyers to lose RPtbh. At least then they wouldn't be seen as a threat as no one would worry about them coming back (not like they do anyway, there always the 1st unit my opponents focuses their fire on).
I don't want to see Destroyers lose RPs. What I want is for them to not pay stupid points for it.
On both Destroyers and Wraiths, GW has vastly overestimated how survivable they'll be with 3 wounds, in an edition chock-full of multi-wound weapons. Not only that, but the increased price of Destroyers (with basically no change to their guns) means that their firepower is pitiful, relative to their cost. Destroyers really need to be about 2/3 of what they currently cost. Wraiths need more bite - e.g. getting Rending back or even inflicting Mortal Wounds on to-wound rolls of 6.
Something I was thinking recently was this: what if the Destroyer Lord just had a general 'reroll 1s to-wound' aura? i.e. it would affect all units (not just Destroyers) and would affect both melee and shooting (like the Auras in other armies).
Suddenly, he'd be able to use his speed to accompany Praetorians or Wraiths and actually give them a decent buff in the process.
(I know Necrons need far more than this, but it's something that bugs me.)
I'd actually say that things are far worse now than in 7th. The Decurion guaranteed that you'd be using a specific core of units, however, it also gave you opportunities to use one or more groups of other units as well (you could go Destroyer Wing, you could have Wraiths, Spiders and Scarabs, you could have Praetorians and a Stalker etc.). I'd say that there was actually more encouragement to use different units in 7th than there is now.
I agree 100%, in the Dec you could have Rece Legion, Royal Court, Destroyer Cult, Canoptek Harvest and other sub-formations. Now everyone literally brings 3-4 DDA,1-2 Stalkers, basic Overlord, Warriors, Immortals and Scarabs, Gauss Pylon, Tesseract Ark and the Tomb Sentinel Everything else is basically taken in dips and dabs. Our army selection has gotten worse because nothing is actually worth taking imo we are just taking the best of what we can get based on paper.
vipoid wrote: Yep. That's because GW doesn't learn and keep making the same three mistakes that cripple him (...)
it is like I said above, GW are to afraid to give us anything good in case it gives them hate like before. Trazyn is suppose to have all the goodies, he even saved Cawl and basically gave the Imperium loads of other gak in 1 book yet we get him all he does is kill other nom-named HQs so that he can stick around for longer. He also is Nihilikh instead of Sautekh so he also loses the chance of being buffed by some of our other HQs like Imotekh. His surrogate host is only worth will on Lord's with H Sword because there is no way I'd lose a Cryptek 4+ save just to leave Trazyn survive for a few turns longer. Also, most of our HQs have fuqqing names so his SH ability if basically useless.
I think the issue is that the aforementioned abilities are 'crazy' as opposed to 'useful'. They also tend to be rather niche - like Stormlord's Flayed One buff, which isn't impressive to begin with and also doesn't gel with anything else he does.
A lot of our HQ buffs are situational as well. E.g. Imotekh buffs Flayed-Ones which will end up costing you 700-800+ pts, Anrakyr mind over machine means he needs to be close to a vehicle to use it and if that is the case he will be gone the next turn. Szeras only buffs Warriors or Immortals, D Lord only helps Destroyers and H Destroyers (as expected) etc. Our HQ buffs are crazy because it is literally crazy how much we have to pay to make them useful.
vipoid wrote: I'd also add that we shouldn't have to use FW models in the first place.
Agreed, I never looked at FW in 7th or 6th, I always thought we had okay Vehicles or Abilities but ever since 8th has dropped I ended up buying a Tomb Sentinel and 2 TA in fear that there always going to be needed and it sickens me that I had to blow out €140 just to make my army a small bit better. Seriously GW how did our Necrons Vehicles pass your play testing?
vipoid wrote: It also forces our already-expensive army to max out on squad-sizes, whereas an MSU approach would have helped us greatly, I think.
I don't even bother with max squads unless it's Tesla Immortals. If I can get warriors I just spend the points on Scarabs instead. Better wounds, attacks and movement. It annoys me that I sometimes field 27-36 Scarabs but I just think warriors are not worth the points even in max squads.
If our HQs got RP it would have to be a different rule because once a whole unit is gone RP doesn't activate so 1 model units wouldn't even benefit from RP. They would need a different ruling that works like RP but different wording. Maybe call it "Eternal Will" and on a 4+ the HQ comes back with D6 wounds? Does that seem fair?
vipoid wrote: Also, the Destroyer Lord should be out melee-beast HQ, yet he only has WS3+.
Tbh, the Deceiver is probably the best CC unit we have because he always does 3 damage per wound where's a D lords scythe can only do 2 and the Nightbringer does D6 so you have a 50% of doing the same damage or less then the Deceiver if using the Nightbringer.
vipoid wrote: This seems like exactly the sort of thing C'tan should be doing. Probably Crypteks as well.
it surprises me that they haven't given us a C'tan for denyingvpyskers. If there was a C'tan that could deny 3-5 powers and if it added a -1 to their pysk role if within X inches that would be amazing. But as I said before GW are to afraid to give us anything good.
vipoid wrote: Remember when the Night Scythe deployment was an advantage instead of a crippling disadvantage?
Yes, I remember when my opponents would go hot headed and roar, now they just laugh it off and say "wow, that thing is not worth it's points". I made the mistake of telling them about the Tomb World ruling and I am never bringing another Tomb World deployment until it gets fixed.
vipoid wrote: Our HQ wargear is indeed abysmal. Especially given that it was supposed to be the main place where our army had actual options and customisation.(...)
GW probably did this on purpose. I can imagine when we get our Codex that we will have a lot of add-ons to work with. But at the same time, it is upsetting that out Index options are worse then any other wargear for other armies.
vipoid wrote: I don't want to see Destroyers lose RPs. What I want is for them to not pay stupid points for it (...)
the reason I want them to lose RP is because they are always targeted 1st because if the whole unit is gone then they can't come back and that is 100% worth our opponents time. Also, when we buy our models we actually pay for RP as well so imagine 1 Destroyer is actually 2 because in terms of GW logic every unit with RP should use RP and never get downed to the point of exile. I would honestly rather field 6 H Destroyers with no RP then 3 with RP just because it will be harder for my opponent to down 2 units and he will also have to deal with 2 units instead of one for the price of 1 RP unit. Obviously I would love them to keep RP but at the moment it makes them the most shot at model in the Necron Army.
vipoid wrote: Something I was thinking recently was this: what if the Destroyer Lord just had a general 'reroll 1s to-wound' aura?
. I actually had this conversation with Klowny (I think) about 10-20 pages ago and I think we both agreed that the buff should stay with the Destroyers because he is the Destroyer Lord and if his aura was to buff Wraiths, Lychguard, Praetorians etc imagine how many people would bitch to GW about that being a broken deathstar and that Necrons are OP. Now, I personally wish that was the case but I can see where that would start to get a bit messy. Especially if he was with 3 units of 6 Wraiths that can move through cover and other models without hesitation. Every HQ under 10 wounds would be nothing but bits of broken plastic after 18 Wraiths attacking with re-rolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound
I don't even bother with max squads unless it's Tesla Immortals. If I can get warriors I just spend the points on Scarabs instead. Better wounds, attacks and movement. It annoys me that I sometimes field 27-36 Scarabs but I just think warriors are not worth the points even in max squads.
Yeah, in spite of all the threads saying that Warriors are the most OP troop choice in the game, I don't find them remotely useful.
- I don't like how many points I have to spend on a full squad.
- I don't like that I'm then encouraged to throw more points away on a Cryptek or such.
- I don't like how unwieldy these warrior-blocks are.
- I don't like how their firepower never seems to inflict meaningful damage to anything.
Also, in spite of what everyone says, my opponents have no issues killing my warrior blobs.
If our HQs got RP it would have to be a different rule because once a whole unit is gone RP doesn't activate so 1 model units wouldn't even benefit from RP. They would need a different ruling that works like RP but different wording. Maybe call it "Eternal Will" and on a 4+ the HQ comes back with D6 wounds? Does that seem fair?
Perhaps it should be d3 wounds? (Since some of our HQs don't even have 6 wounds ).
Other possibilities would be making it a 6+ (but you get to roll every turn), or making it a 5+ (but you can only roll if a friendly Necron unit is within 3" of where the HQ died).
Tbh, the Deceiver is probably the best CC unit we have because he always does 3 damage per wound where's a D lords scythe can only do 2 and the Nightbringer does D6 so you have a 50% of doing the same damage or less then the Deceiver if using the Nightbringer.
I did say that the Destroyer Lord was supposed to be our melee-beast HQ. I know the C'tan are better, but they're not HQs.
it surprises me that they haven't given us a C'tan for denyingvpyskers. If there was a C'tan that could deny 3-5 powers and if it added a -1 to their pysk role if within X inches that would be amazing. But as I said before GW are to afraid to give us anything good.
Honestly, it seems like a standard thing that all C'tan should do.
I mean, they could just make it a C'tan Power (there's no reason why those all have to be offensive).
GW probably did this on purpose. I can imagine when we get our Codex that we will have a lot of add-ons to work with. But at the same time, it is upsetting that out Index options are worse then any other wargear for other armies.
I'm doubtful. Other codices don't appear to have gained any wargeat outside of artefacts, and I don't see why ours would be any different.
the reason I want them to lose RP is because they are always targeted 1st because if the whole unit is gone then they can't come back and that is 100% worth our opponents time. Also, when we buy our models we actually pay for RP as well so imagine 1 Destroyer is actually 2 because in terms of GW logic every unit with RP should use RP and never get downed to the point of exile. I would honestly rather field 6 H Destroyers with no RP then 3 with RP just because it will be harder for my opponent to down 2 units and he will also have to deal with 2 units instead of one for the price of 1 RP unit. Obviously I would love them to keep RP but at the moment it makes them the most shot at model in the Necron Army.
I get what you mean, but surely you could extend that to all Necrons? As it stands, we'd be far better off not having RP at all and getting significant discounts on all our models instead. And, at that point why are we even playing Necrons?
I'd much rather find a solution that keeps RPs in some form, rather than abandoning them entirely. They are supposed to be the army's core theme, after all (or were, anyway).
I actually had this conversation with Klowny (I think) about 10-20 pages ago and I think we both agreed that the buff should stay with the Destroyers because he is the Destroyer Lord
But so what? A Destroyer Lord is just the Necron equivalent of a mounted lord. If you put a Chaos Lord on a bike, his aura doesn't become limited to bikers and nothing else.
Odrankt wrote: and if his aura was to buff Wraiths, Lychguard, Praetorians etc imagine how many people would bitch to GW about that being a broken deathstar and that Necrons are OP.
People already bitch about Necrons being OP anyway. At least this way we'd have some half-decent rules to enjoy.
Odrankt wrote: Especially if he was with 3 units of 6 Wraiths that can move through cover and other models without hesitation.
The thing is though, normal infantry can move through terrain without hesitation. And anything with the fly special rule can move over terrain and models as well. It's hardly a unique feature.
What's more, given the current state of Wraiths, do you really think that letting them reroll 1s to wound will suddenly make them OP?
Odrankt wrote: Every HQ under 10 wounds would be nothing but bits of broken plastic after 18 Wraiths attacking with re-rolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound
Firstly, how are the Wraiths rerolling 1s to hit? The D. Lord's aura would only let them reroll 1s to-wound.
Second, how would these 18 Wraiths all get into melee with an HQ? They can move through models but they still have to physically fit in the space.
Thirdly, if you think this is a powerful tactic, what exactly is stopping you from using it now? If Wraiths can kill a HQ when rerolling 1s to wound, then they can kill a HQ without rerolling 1s to wound.
I really wish there was a way for the people in charge of writing the codex to see the above few comments.
It outlines exactly what's wrong/what needs to be fixed with Necrons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (also, much obliged for the considerate spoilers, lads. May your Dynasties once again gleam as they did in aeons past)
I really wish there was a way for the people in charge of writing the codex to see the above few comments.
It outlines exactly what's wrong/what needs to be fixed with Necrons.
I actually personally wrote to the GW page with the complaint I made in my post. Obviously more civil but got my point across. I also emailed them as well and might print it up and send them as letters as well.
I was also thinking of making a video and uploading it on YouTube and other video services to get my frustration out into the public more. The whole reason Necrons got nurfed so badly is because every army in 40K complained till they listened and that is the result of our index. It basically got made to be nurfed so that people would shut up and stop annoying GW about our army.
So, it looks like we will have to do the same and as much traffic as DakkaDakka gets I doubt they even go through the forms cause if they did a whole lot of stuff would have been sorted in the FaQs by now.
Perhaps it should be d3 wounds? (Since some of our HQs don't even have 6 wounds ).
Other possibilities would be making it a 6+ (but you get to roll every turn), or making it a 5+ (but you can only roll if a friendly Necron unit is within 3" of where the HQ died).
But yeah, anything like that really.
Yeah I guess getting D3 wounds would be okay but it's just the chance of rolling 1-2 that make it scary and somewhat pointless. If I am paying points to make my HQ come back I will at least want it to have half of those wounds back.
I did say that the Destroyer Lord was supposed to be our melee-beast HQ. I know the C'tan are better, but they're not HQs.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he was our best CC unit in general. Didn't see the HQ part. Tbh, I actually quite like the CCB with the Scythe, pretty much the same CC power as the D Lord but can have a Tesla or Gauss Cannon. Won't be re-rolling 1s but it's naturally a 2+ WS and BS. I tried the D Lord once and I was not impressed so I'm leaving him in his tomb for the moment untill I want to awake him again. I used the CCB twice and it preformed pretty well. The QS rule does help it survive.
Honestly, it may seem like a standard thing to do
This is GW we are talking about. They aren't the fairest of companies when it comes to certain situations and I imagine they are somewhat bias to some armies (All Imperium, Eldar, Ynari, majority of Chaos) and don't feel the same for others (Necrons and Squats, and yes I did compare our army to an army that has been out of the game for a while). Also, they are all about selling their models, paints and story so if they brought out a C'tan that was labeled "anti-pysker" you would imagine about 50% of Necron players (me included) would buy that Day 1 and they would honestly rather have your money then you wanting them to change rules that might stop them from selling their products.
I'm doubtful. Other codices don't appear to have gained any wargear outside of artefacts, and I don't see why ours would be any different.
That is because most of those armies had all their ear gear already in the Index but got updated in the codex. Like T'au has a sick array of War gear for both HQs and other units, same with Tyranids, Orks, IG etc. We literally lost everything that gave us any flavor. If GW give us no upgrades then I'm putting all my crons back into their tomb world's till 9th edition comes out cause that would be utter BS.
I get what you mean, but surely you could extend that to all Necrons? As it stands, we'd be far better off not having RP at all and getting significant discounts on all our models instead. And, at that point why are we even playing Necrons?
I'd much rather find a solution that keeps RPs in some form, rather than abandoning them entirely. They are supposed to be the army's core theme, after all (or were, anyway).
Well no, see the problem with Destroyers is that they are 3 wounds a model and when you RP you get full wounds so even if 2 die and 1 survives and both comes back then you basically got 6 extra wounds via them coming back. That's the reason there always shot 1st because they know we get full wounds when we RP. Warriors and Immortals are 1 wound a piece so normal guns can take them out and if they RP there only 1 wound so no biggie but Destroyers are a bit tougher to deal with and take more fire power. So no matter what you do your opponent is always going to see them as a threat if they know the damage they can do.
They only RP units I use is Tesla Immortals and a unit of 6-9 Gauss Tomb Blades with a mixture of 3+ saves and 5++. I think those are the best units that RP can work on due to how effective both are. I actually don't rely on RP to much, I just think of it as an extra save I get to re-roll at the start of my turn.
given the current state of Wraiths, do you really think that letting them reroll 1s to wound will suddenly make them OP?
well 6 of them 18 attacks + 6 more for charging so 24 attacks might land you 10-14 wounds (depending on S vs T and your rolls) with re-rolling 1s would actually be pretty decent as a CC option. Even if it was against a unit of conscripts or any kind of horde army it would pretty much munch through them. Especially if you had 3 units of 6. Wouldn't make us OP but people would complain and I'm sick of people giving me gak for my playing Necrons because there naturally OP. According to my opponents and brother.
Firstly, how are the Wraiths rerolling 1s to hit? The D. Lord's aura would only let them reroll 1s to-wound.
Second, how would these 18 Wraiths all get into melee with an HQ? They can move through models but they still have to physically fit in the space.
Thirdly, if you think this is a powerful tactic, what exactly is stopping you from using it now? If Wraiths can kill a HQ when rerolling 1s to wound, then they can kill a HQ without rerolling 1s to wound.
1. I thought the D Lords United hatred allowed re-roll 1s to hit. Sorry for the confusion.
2. Well you don't have to target the HQ on its own. I was just giving an example. Honestly I would probably charge just 1 unit against the HQ and the other 2 at the units he is buffing. D Lord could charge the HQ if possible as well.
3. The problem with Wraiths is the same Problem as Destroyers. Once they are seen they are shot to death. Most people have a vendetta against Wraiths because of the Canoptek Harvest in 7th so when they get the chance to shoot them up they will always take it. well, in my experience anyway. Also, the 3+ invul in nice but they have no way of regaining wounds or coming back to life so if I was to use Wraiths I'd make sure I'd have a plan for them otherwise I just fill there spot with a TA or more Scarabs.
I want Wraiths to be good again. If they had living Metal I think they would be a small bit more beefy.
Yeah I guess getting D3 wounds would be okay but it's just the chance of rolling 1-2 that make it scary and somewhat pointless. If I am paying points to make my HQ come back I will at least want it to have half of those wounds back.
Well, I was presuming they'd still regenerate. I see your point though.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he was out best CC unit in general. Didn't see the HQ part. Tbh, I actually quite like the CCB with the Scythe, pretty much the same CC power as the D Lord but can have a Tesla or Gauss Cannon. Won't be re-rolling 1s but it's naturally a 2+ WS and BS. I tried the D Lord once and I was not impressed so I'm leaving him in his tomb for the moment untill I want to awake him again. I used the CCB twice and it preformed pretty well. The QS rule does help it survive.
I think the CCB is slightly worse than the D. Lord in combat (due to having 1 less attack), but obviously it can have a gun.
I think where I struggle with the CCB is that I've got nothing to accompany it that can take advantage of its MWBD buff, so I feel like I might as well just take a regular Overlord.
It would be nice if the CCB's MWBD would affect Praetorians.
it may seem like a standard thing to do but this is GW we are talking about. They aren't the fairest of companies when it comes to certain situations and I imagine they are somewhat bias to some armies (All Imperium, Eldar, Ynari, majority of Chaos) and don't feel the same for others (Necrons and Squats, and yes I did compare our army to an army that has been out of the game for a while). Also, they are all about selling their models, paints and story so if they brought out a C'tan that was labeled "anti-pysker" you would imagine about 50% of Necron players (me included) would buy that Day 1 and they would honestly rather have your money then you wanting them to change rules that might stop them from selling their products.
That is because most of those armies had all their ear gear already in the Index but got updated in the codex. Like T'au has a sick array of War gear for both HQs and other units, same with Tyranids, Orks, IG etc. We literally lost everything that gave us any flavor. If GW give us no upgrades then I'm putting all my crons back into their tomb world's till 9th edition comes out cause that would be utter BS.
We'll see, I suppose.
If the codex doesn't help us then I fear my Necrons might end up shelved as well.
Well no, see the problem with Destroyers is that they are 3 wounds a model and when you RP you get full wounds so even if 2 die and 1 survives and both comes back then you basically got 6 extra wounds via them coming back. That's the reason there always shot 1st because they know we get full wounds when we RP. Warriors and Immortals are 1 wound a piece so normal guns can take them out and if they RP there only 1 wound so no biggie but Destroyers are a bit tougher to deal with and take more fire power. So no matter what you do your opponent is always going to see them as a threat if they know the damage they can do.
That's true. Do you think it would help if they went back to having 2 wounds like they did in 7th (and got significantly cheaper, obviously)?
They only RP units I use is Tesla Immortals and a unit of 6-9 Gauss Tomb Blades with a mixture of 3+ saves and 5++. I think those are the best units that RP can work on due to how effective both are. I actually don't rely on RP to much, I just think of it as an extra save I get to re-roll at the start of my turn.
I'd agree with that.
I want to try out Praetorians sometime (I doubt they'll be good but I have delusions of a fast Necron army), so we'll see how that goes.
well 6 of them 18 attacks + 6 more for charging so 24 attacks might land you 10-14 wounds (depending on S vs T and your rolls) with re-rolling 1s would actually be pretty decent as a CC option. Even if it was against a unit of conscripts or any kind of horde army it would pretty much munch through them. Especially if you had 3 units of 6. Wouldn't make us OP but people would complain and I'm sick of people giving me gak for my playing Necrons because there naturally OP. According to my opponents and brother.
It would help a bit but I don't think it would make a significant difference.
I agree that people moaning about Necrons is annoying, but my point is they're clearly intent on doing that *anyway*. We're really weak at the moment and yet they're *still* bitching at us.
Therefore, there is no correlation between the strength/quality of our rules and the level of bitching about Necrons being OP.
Therefore, if our rules were improved (e.g. by the aforementioned aura) then there is no reason to expect that the level of bitching would change in any meaningful way.
In contrast, there is a lot of reason to expect that at least some parts of our army would become more fun and playable.
Given that there's going to be bitching no matter what, I'd rather go for the option wherein we get some decent rules out of it.
3. The problem with Wraiths is the same Problem as Destroyers. Once they are seen they are shot to death. Most people have a vendetta against Wraiths because of the Canoptek Harvest in 7th so when they get the chance to shoot them up they will always take it. well, in my experience anyway. Also, the 3+ invul in nice but they have no way of regaining wounds or coming back to life so if I was to use Wraiths I'd make sure I'd have a plan for them otherwise I just fill there spot with a TA or more Scarabs.
I agree entirely. But that's my whole point - a reroll 1s to-wound buff isn't going to change that in the slightest (it might even exacerbate it). Hence, such a buff isn't suddenly going to make Wraiths into OP murder-engines.
I want Wraiths to be good again. If they had living Metal I think they would be a small bit more beefy.
I don't think Living Metal would make much difference (since only 1 Wraith in a unit can be wounded at any time).
Not sure what the solution is, honestly. I do think that they need to be more killy (AP-1 just doesn't cut it) - maybe inflicting Mortal Wounds on 6s to-wound or something? No idea how to fix their survivability though.
One thing that does puzzle me - why aren't Wraiths Fearless? Wasn't that supposed to be their trade-off for not having RPs? Same with Scarabs.
Tbh, there is only so much Tactics we can chat about based on the Index and I think we have literally said and wrote all of the Tactics. So at this point it's either we keep talking about tactics we have already discussed or maybe you have a Tactic you would like to share?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: lol at above. Also we should wait till we get our codex before doing anything drastic like youtube videos kek
Honestly man, I really think we are going to be one of the last, if not to last, armies to get our Codex. It's already be revealed that Nids, Eldar and Astra Mil are getting the next 3 codex after Admech and Deathguard meaning we only have 1 codex left before 2018 and based on 7th editiom feedback for 2-3 years everyone hated Necrons and everyone had something bad to say about them so I don't see us getting our Codex till March-April time.
I don't have a proper reason as to why our codex will be late but my gut feeling is telling me to not get my hopes up about it
Main reason I want to do a Video is so we can express our concerns for Necrons because if we base our Codex off of our Index we are going to be in a really bad place until 9th drops and GW realises they can't favour some armies and give others nothing just because majority of the people don't like them. I do feel like we're getting the most fuqqed over by GWATM.
Dude, its not all gloom and doom. Sure, we arent a competitive codex atm, and we got nerfed pretty hard in relation to 7th.
But.
8th edition was the big cleanse, the one that nerfed all the top tier codex's. 7th was all superfriends and eldar, now its guard variants and oddball imperium lists.
All the bottom tier codex's got a buff and all the top was brought down. We got brought down a fair bit more, but I say we will get some good attention in the codex. They seem to be on a mission to have a roughly equal power level amongst all factions, and its fairly close currently. We just need some attention, which we will get.
Its actually better to get one of the last codex's, as it will mean we have had more time to get the better rules and ideas they learned from other codex write ups.
I know next weekend I will be doing a 1.5K game. I'm versing a wRhound Titan. I will be bringing 2 pylons and an obelisk (my 3 LoW I own). Funny thing is the stick I get for a pylon been too effective and under costed.
Even pointing out the fact the Titan as 3 very effective weapons it can use each turn. And that it equals out to fact pylons got one weapon it can use. ( not to mention the ton of bonuses the Titan gets over the pylon)
Been told I should be bringing only 1 pylon and nothing else to make it a fairer fight :/
This came about After my pylon within a 2k force nearly annilated an Elder army popping a fire prism a turn plus a host of other vehicles. With the well documented double standard of they can bring what ever tricks and baubles they care to bring with no quibbles permitted. Funniest outcome of that fight thou was when the pylon was taken down by mass charges and an armies worth of shooting for many turns was it exploded and took out more of my own army then what my opponent had managed all game.
Klowny wrote: Dude, its not all gloom and doom. Sure, we arent a competitive codex atm, and we got nerfed pretty hard in relation to 7th.
Here is to hoping, mate. 8th edition has been pretty rough so far. We are out ranged / damaged in a fire fight and out classed in CC. Our only saving grace is the AP-1 on our basic weapons and RP (which is so/so in all honesty when your squad gets wiped top of turn 1).
At this rate I wouldn't be surprised to see plastic Sisters come out before we get our codex.
(and for the record, the reason we should be doing things like writing GW and making YouTube videos about what needs to change is to hopefully influence their decisions on how the codex turns out... unfortunately, trying to get people to do anything en mass isn't easy, as evidenced by the US election).
At the moment, our best tactic is to avoid the least cost effective units and focus on the most reliable ones... unfortunately this makes for some pretty stale lists and games, but we don't have a lot of options at this point unless we purposely want to hobble ourselves in the name of "fun" (losing can be fun, right?)
[and thank you, everyone, for keeping long non-tactic related discussion under spoilers]
Jesus lads were getting a codex within the next year, when was the last time we got one? Years ago. GW are doing their best, just chill a little bit. They can't please everyone all the time. You can still play and win casually pretty well if you know what your doing, and do okay in some tournaments, were just a hard mode army now, not the point and click brainless army of 7th.
Klowny wrote: Jesus lads were getting a codex within the next year, when was the last time we got one? Years ago. GW are doing their best, just chill a little bit. They can't please everyone all the time. You can still play and win casually pretty well if you know what your doing, and do okay in some tournaments, were just a hard mode army now, not the point and click brainless army of 7th.
Yip I've played around 20 games from 500pts to 2.5k in 8th and only lost 3
This is against experienced and new players.
Armies ranging across marines, chaos, elder, imperial. With more games coming up. ( nids, tau, more marines, more chaos)
To make a point I played against one of my fellow Cron players and won him with a chaos death guard army to point out this is a much harder force then crons.
Yeah I've only lost 1 game in 8th, to a nasty tournament level grey knight list, we are at the bottom of the pile but the distance between the bottom and the top isn't as huge as it appeara to some. Not saying it's small or that we won't be at a disadvantage most games but also doesn't mean we will get curb stomped 100% of the time
As I have said before just stick to 1000 point games. At 2000 against a competitive list you don't have much of a chance. We will see when we get our codex if we can play with the big boys/girls but untill then play low point games or fluffy games. Ork players did it for YEARS and still kept with it. Now most Ork players are seen as the Bros of the community and the whole community is happy they have a usable army now.
The wheel doesn't stop turning and we will see our army out of the mud eventually.
Klowny wrote: pylon, quantam shielding, MWBD tesla immortals, scarabs, anrakyr and scytheguard
MWBD?
And cool... But why, even if just briefly. I'm curious + trying to help a friend and am trying to understand the current meta
The pylon will statistically, on average, kill any vehicle/flyer/monster that you put in front of it for >500 points. It will do a minimum of 14 wounds to a knight, and hits on 3+ against non-fly units, and a 2+ against all flyers, with S16 wounding everything on 2+ and an AP-4. Very impressive bit of kit, can also DS and shoot at full efficiency T1 due to having a macro profile with no negatives to shooting.
Quantam shielding means our vehicles stay alive and are alot safer against traditional vehicle killers, negating high damage weapons more effectively than most armies.
10x MWBD tesla immortals put out 20 S5 ap-0 1D shots a turn at 24", hitting on 2's and proccing tesla (an additional 2 hits) on a 5+ instead of a 6+, meaning a significant amount more shots.
Scarabs are one of the most points efficient models in our index, allowing them to wound a warlord titan the same as a space marine.
Anrakyr and scytheguard synergise well, as he grants everyone an extra attack, also has MWBD, so the slow moving scytheguard get +1 to hit, (so hit on 2's with S7 AP-4 D2) advance and charge rolls. They are still slow so you need some sort of delivery system, of which most are expensive and points inefficient, a deciever being the cheapest and best IMO.
If you're using the Deceiver to deliver Lychguard with Anrakyr you're still not charging until turn 2 at earliest... unless you're going the ridiculous Zahndrekh + Obyron route as well (at which point you might as well throw in a Ghost Ark and Cryptek, too, with the amount of points you're going to be devoting to it)
T2 charge isnt the best in the world but its the more reliable or cheaper than everything else besides 2 nights scythes.... but then you risk losing them to the tomb world. I didn't say it was a realistic option most of the time, but he asked for good combos and lych and anrakyr combo well. I wouldn't run it myself, unless I knew I was against a DS army, so they couldn't have far to move.
Does Zahndrekh's aura deniability ever come in to play? Delivering it would be the main problem, but against tyranids for example, which will be in your face, you could deny a single source of synapse for a player that doesn't pay attention.
shuts down gulliman for a turn, its a suicide run though, as you could do it T1 with the deciever then GWM in the death squad, but still, unless guilliman dies (highly unlikely) then that whole package is dead T2
I was able to take out Gulliman with a unit of 6 Scarabs with the help of the Tomb Stalker. It did a total of 6 wounds on Gully via the TS Exile Cannon and I then charge my Scarabs. He rolled like 5-6 ones before his re-rolling 1s and then rolled 4 1after the re-roll.
It made my day knowing I 1) beat Gulliman on my 1st time against him 2) I tabled him as Gulliman was his last unit and 3) my Scarabs were the guys who dealt with him before he crumbled to there 5+ to wound rolls.
Also while it's on topic. Anrakyr is a beast with Scythe guard but the problem with this combo is that they are unable to save him from taking wounds due to him not have the <Dynasty> keyword. So, if you do take Anrakyr+Lychguard you should just take the Scythes. His +1 attack is also really good with Scytheguard, be better if we could add +1 Strength to them giving them Strength 8 -4 2 stats. Hopefully our Codex will fleshout Anrakyr lack of GP problem. It's the only thing that hesitates me from using this combo.
Yeah I thought his reroll ability only applied to hits and wounds, not saves.
Also taking s&b lych as meat shields for your HQ is silly, since when they take the wounds they take them as mortal wounds, meaning the 3++ does nothing.
They scytheguard are better in every sense, bar survivability, but having a retinue of S&B feels like a waste of points.
Also anrakyr not having a dynasty is fluffy, dont expect it to change.
Klowny wrote: Yeah I thought his reroll ability only applied to hits and wounds, not saves.
Also taking s&b lych as meat shields for your HQ is silly, since when they take the wounds they take them as mortal wounds, meaning the 3++ does nothing.
They scytheguard are better in every sense, bar survivability, but having a retinue of S&B feels like a waste of points.
Also anrakyr not having a dynasty is fluffy, dont expect it to change.
I never liked Space Marines so I never bother learning about Gulliman so I took my opponents word on his re-rolling 1s. Guess I'll have to look on Battlescribe.
I never said to take lych as meat shields. I just meant that if you have Anrakyr in a unit giving his buffs to the Lychguard and he gets snipped and killed then you have no way of stopping that unless you got the Warlord trait to ignore wounds on 6s and after that your buffed up Lychguard are now kind of wasted points due to us only taking them due to the synergy between both units and if one fails then the synergy fails.
I know Anrakyr isn't in a Dynasty and only respects/listens to Necron Overlords who are in charge of Dynasties (Imotekh the Stormlord is able to give mwbd on Anrakyr but no other HQ can do that. Yet...)
However, GW could make a rule that lets Anrakyr benefit from the Lychguards GP or his Own Dynasty? It is very unlikely but nothing is impossible as the fluff is always changing. GW does like to surprise there fanbase every so often.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Could there be a psychic power or other HQ auras letting him reroll saves?
I literally know nothing about SM not even Robute Curryman. I'll Battlescribe him up with some pyskers and see what the story is. If he can't re-roll 1s to save then he should have been tabled when my Tomb Sentinel shot at him (got 4 wounds and he rolled two 2s and two 1s which then became a 3 and a 4).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Oh sorry dude, I read that wrong. Apologies. Yeah scytheguard are better overall, S&B is pretty average, the 3++ is noice, but they aren't as choppy.
You are all good man. Don't worry about it. I actually have an issue with grammar and sentence structure so it is probably my fault for the confusion
This weekend I played in the Flying Monkey GT. I didn't have a very optimised list and I haven't played much 8th. These were the takeaways:
Quantum Shielding+Living Metal beats RP by far.
The Nightbringer with Screening units of scarabs is a VERY effective combo.
Gauss Immortals aren't as bad as people say they are, but Tesla is just as good as people say.
Doomsday Ark are wayyyyyy too Swingy. One game 3 rounds of shooting from 3 did 6 damage to a Lord of Skulls. Another game they killed 2 Knights in 2 Rounds.
My Triarch Stalker got focused round one all 6 games
Scarabs=Awesome
Gauss immortals were always good, just outclassed by tesla, due to having low mobility and tesla being superior at range.
On this topic, what loadout is better for Tomb Blades?
Again, the tesla is better until the gauss gets into RF range, but now these are on a 14" m chassis, so there is a much higher chance of getting there.
The flip side is that the tesla can still advance and fire, though its on 4+ and not proccing tesla, but its still more damage than the gauss as it cant fire under this circumstance
You can screen the TA, and its main gun is 48", and can still fire it after moving. The DDA is only better in one specific circumstance, and even then it still does less damage than the TA. D6 shots is just superior in almost every circumstance than D3, and it can still shoot and advance, has a fleshbane flamer and tesla cannons, all with a 5++.
An average roll for DDA is 2 shots, average for TA is 3-4, sure its only S8 but its still adequate, and has the potential for 6 shots. It also has tesla, which follows the guide that tesla is better until guass is in RF range, which on a backfield camping DDA will mostly never be used, while the tesla is at maximum efficiency T1.
Remember the TA is also T7, still has QS, and has a 5++. Much more survivable, it also only drops down to its second tier after 5 wounds, and its scary to charge as it makes charges harder, and its fleshbane flamer......
Automatically Appended Next Post: The TA outdamages the DDA in every circumstance, even when the gauss gets into RF, due to the TA still being able to shoot its big cannon, or it can shoot is heavy gauss. Its more survivable, especially when you give it Toholk's D3 living metal...
Its a FW model, so maybe proxy one to see if it suits your playstyle, its played noticably differently than most of the other vehicles. More aggressive than most, you want it more foward than a stalker as its main idea is damage over its buff, its more mobile than a DDA, and is more efficient when moving, way more durable than an anni barge so dont have to worry about hiding it as much.
I've always preferred gaussmortals over tesla. It's always good to have one of each if you have at least two units, as you (mostly) have only one MWBD to throw around anyway. And since there are so many units with a 3+(or 4+) save, I value the - 2 more than the extra shots that will prob get saved anyway.
The TA is better atm, even though I need to test the Ddark more. I'm not sure how but I do feel the Ddarks should get a slight buff, or a minimum if 2/3 on its damage at least.
damn, I have a total of 4 Ark kits, which I suddenly started magnetizing and painting in a hurry hoping to be able to stay afloat with them in 8th. Seems I also need to get those TA kits. Bummer.
I mean it's never a bad idea to magnetise. The codex might give us 3 shots each instead of d3, hell if it got D6 shots there would be a case for having a few DDA. Or the GA's might become useable
If the DDA got updated to Heavy 3 S10 -5 D3+3 I think I would field it all the time. I just hate the unreliable D3 shots and as I have said before as well as other people. The TA is better than a DDA in everyway. Might have worse Strength but I rather take D6 then D3 any day.
GW needs to beef up our Vehicles badly. every Necron player is looking at FW models for reliablity due to how bad our GW Vehicles suck.
I literally don't know any other army that has relied on FW models as much as Necrons has since 8th dropped.
Klowny wrote: Pylons, 2 should suffice. Or a couple of Gauss sentry pylon will also be quite effective against them. Hell, 2 pylons and a sentry will kill 3 a turn
I was thinking Non-FW. As my Pylon won't be done before the next Tourney.
Just wondering something. What is our best 2000pt list? Trying to make an all around list so I can put the other models I'm not using back into their Tomb World for some needed rest.
At the moment I believe that; 1 Gauss Pylon, 1-2 Tesseract Arks, 1-2 Tomb Sentinels, 1 Triarch Stalker, unit of 10 Immortals, Overlord (HQs are situational so the basic one seems the best) Orikan/Szeras/Toholk, 6-9 Tomb Blades , Nightbringer and 45-63 Scarabs should be in everyone lists but that's my opinion.
What would ye say is s Good 2000pt list that will be fun to play and give most non-competitive armies a run for their money?
I decided to not be competitive with my Necrons so the list doesn't need to be tournament standard just something that looks cool and be fun to play with for us and our opponents.
Klowny wrote: Pylons, 2 should suffice. Or a couple of Gauss sentry pylon will also be quite effective against them. Hell, 2 pylons and a sentry will kill 3 a turn
I was thinking Non-FW. As my Pylon won't be done before the next Tourney.
Either 1-3 Doomsday Arks on their own or 2 DDA backed up by a Triarch Stalker.
You could field more but then your going very points heavy for just 1 model/unit.
Just wondering something. What is our best 2000pt list? Trying to make an all around list so I can put the other models I'm not using back into their Tomb World for some needed rest.
At the moment I believe that; 1 Gauss Pylon, 1-2 Tesseract Arks, 1-2 Tomb Sentinels, 1 Triarch Stalker, unit of 10 Immortals, Overlord (HQs are situational so the basic one seems the best) Orikan/Szeras/Toholk, 6-9 Tomb Blades , Nightbringer and 45-63 Scarabs should be in everyone lists but that's my opinion.
What would ye say is s Good 2000pt list that will be fun to play and give most non-competitive armies a run for their money?
I decided to not be competitive with my Necrons so the list doesn't need to be tournament standard just something that looks cool and be fun to play with for us and our opponents.
I personally haven't run Sentinels yet but I dont see their value tbh, its a single gun that pretty much always shoots at a 4+, granted it can come up wherever it wants but still.... maybe theres something I'm not seeing, I have one waiting to be built, just finishing my TA for the tourney.
Most competitive is in relation to the meta, but any good list needs to be able to deal with hordes (100-200 models), a couple of vehicles, a big scary unit/model, flyers and have an answer to DS/CC armies.
Pylon and scarabs deal with flyers, DS/CC, big scary unit/models. Then it really depends, you need tesla out the eyeballs to deal with hordes, but it does do so quite well. Tesla immortals with an overlord are good, but tesla on TB is also good, albeit quite expensive for a single unit. Much better to go with more immortals I suppose.
I think the deciever is much more valuable than the nightbringer, solely due to his GI. Use it to bait a bad deployment for your opponent, then use it to reposition 2-3 scarab squads so you get massive board control pre-game.
I think 45-63 scarabs is too much though, thats nearly 600-1000 points invested in a screen/chaff unit. Stalker is good, but its basically a buff, which can be expensive when you consider how expensive the rest of the army is. The pylon doesn't need help to kill stuff, and you really need a bunch of weapons pointed at the same target to get a benefit. Tomb blades are good, I love them hence why I want to run them, they're fast and manoeuvrable while still putting out alot of damage. Still not sold on which loadout is better, its not as clear as on immortals, plus its handy to have the -2 rend on some infantry weaponry.
FireSkullz2 wrote:
Klowny wrote: Pylons, 2 should suffice. Or a couple of Gauss sentry pylon will also be quite effective against them. Hell, 2 pylons and a sentry will kill 3 a turn
I was thinking Non-FW. As my Pylon won't be done before the next Tourney.
In that case.... not a whole bunch. Remember flyer spam wont be in many tournaments as its now incredibly risky to run.
Right now I'm thinking Tesla on Immortals (because they're slower so will spend more time out of rapid fire range, plus able to get MWBD) and Gauss for Tomb Blades (fast, so can get into rapid fire range quickly, no way to benefit from MWBD).
Price problem means you've gotta invest big points into those Tomb Blades to make them effective, though...
skoffs wrote: Right now I'm thinking Tesla on Immortals (because they're slower so will spend more time out of rapid fire range, plus able to get MWBD) and Gauss for Tomb Blades (fast, so can get into rapid fire range quickly, no way to benefit from MWBD).
Price problem means you've gotta invest big points into those Tomb Blades to make them effective, though...
I know, the price investment in TB is brutal. But I cant think of many better units, maybe wraiths w/ pistols? Lose movement and shooting for durability and CC? Probably a good option if you find that lacking
But then again scarabs actually are very comparable to wraiths, you lose the 3++ but gain a bucket load of wounds, and more attacks, and they are better against T7/8 than wraiths
I personally haven't run Sentinels yet but I dont see their value tbh, its a single gun that pretty much always shoots at a 4+, granted it can come up wherever it wants but still.... maybe theres something I'm not seeing, I have one waiting to be built, just finishing my TA for the tourney.
I find the Tomb Sentinel to be amazing tbh. It is hitting on 4+s when it moves or DS but don't think of that as a reason to not field one. I usually have mine backed up by 2 units of 9 Scarabs for some nasty tactics. Here's my break down. 1) move Scarabs units around an enemy unit you want dead 2) DS the Sentinel within 9.1 inches of the enemy unit and shoot your gun at it hoping to get it down a few wounds 3) charge one unit of Scarabs into the enemy to soak up the fire power then charge the Sentinel 4) Attack with your Sentinel and hopefully get the enemy down to it's last few wounds before attacking with the Scarabs 5) destroy enemy unit and consolidate toward another enemy unit.
Rinse and repeat what I said above and you have a reliable tank killer that is good At shooting even at 4+ and pretty good in CC. The Scarabs are mainly there to soak up wounds and to deny the enemy from leaving combat incase your still in CC on your opponents turn.
Most competitive is in relation to the meta, but any good list needs to be able to deal with hordes (100-200 models), a couple of vehicles, a big scary unit/model, flyers and have an answer to DS/CC armies.
Scarbs ,if placed right, can stop DS units from targeting your more important units and can make them deploy them further back then your opponent wanted. Gauss Pylon can deal with scary units and flyers. Tesla Immortals ,Tesla Cannons via TA and Gauss TBs can deal with hordes and Tomb Stalker can deal with Tanks.
I think the deciever is much more valuable than the nightbringer, solely due to his GI. Use it to bait a bad deployment for your opponent, then use it to reposition 2-3 scarab squads so you get massive board control pre-game.
The Deceivers GI is good and can help us out by letting us to re-deploy some units but the Nightbringer is always wounding on 2 unless against a Vehicle. Both C'tan are good it just depends on what you want from them. Either we Re-deploy D3 plus Deceiver or have a C'tan Beatstick backed up by Scarbs to make him untouchable.
I think 45-63 scarabs is too much though, thats nearly 600-1000 points invested in a screen/chaff unit. Stalker is good, but its basically a buff, which can be expensive when you consider how expensive the rest of the army is. The pylon doesn't need help to kill stuff, and you really need a bunch of weapons pointed at the same target to get a benefit. Tomb blades are good, I love them hence why I want to run them, they're fast and manoeuvrable while still putting out alot of damage. Still not sold on which loadout is better, its not as clear as on immortals, plus its handy to have the -2 rend on some infantry weaponry.
the reason I say 45-63 Scarabs is so I can have 2 units to act as meat shields for the Tomb Stalker and Nightbringer/Deceiver. Also, my local meta has all recently changed to Thousand Suns and Tzeentch meaning it's literally all pyskers atm in my local GW and Wargaming group. I like bringing loads of Scarabs so they can soak up smite and other pysk powers and leave my more valuable units alone. Also, I bubble wrap my main units (Triarch Stalker, Tesseract Ark, Gauss Pylon etc) to deny my opponent DS them and stop them from charging.
I usually bring two Tomb Stalkers if I don't bring a Triarch Stalker and have them work from the flanks inwards with 2 units of Scarabs each while my gun line will deal with the middle of the board.
I love Tomb Blades as well. I give them Tesla if I am not bringing Immortals but If I am I go with Gauss. 9 of them in RF range is 36 S5 -2 D1 and while you don't have to be up close and personal with Tesla, I rather thank the risk for Gauss as it has literally Destroyered every target I out at then (Unit of 5 Tyranid Warriors, unit of 20 conscripts, unit of 10 Ad Mech vanguard and unit of 3 Destroyers etc). I also give 4 of them the 5++ invul and the others the 3+. I don't bother with ignoring cover because of the -2 AP of the Gauss. That way in cover you can get a 2+ save and if you take a -4 AP wound you can allocate it on your 5++.
Odrankt wrote: I usually have mine backed up by 2 units of 9 Scarabs for some nasty tactics. Here's my break down. 1) move Scarabs units around an enemy unit you want dead 2) DS the Sentinel within 9.1 inches of the enemy unit and shoot your gun at it hoping to get it down a few wounds 3) charge one unit of Scarabs into the enemy to soak up the fire power then charge the Sentinel 4) Attack with your Sentinel and hopefully get the enemy down to it's last few wounds before attacking with the Scarabs 5) destroy enemy unit and consolidate toward another enemy unit.
Issue there is the same that hinders Flayed Ones from being truly awesome: a 9" charge.
Granted, in this case you've got a bunch of Scarabs there in the likely event that you fail it, so at least you shouldn't worry as much about retaliation as they sit there for a turn.
Issue there is the same that hinders Flayed Ones from being truly awesome: a 9" charge.
Granted, in this case you've got a bunch of Scarabs there in the likely event that you fail it, so at least you shouldn't worry as much about retaliation as they sit there for a turn.
I have actually always successfully got the 9" charge in all my games. I have only needed to CP the charge once and that's when I rolled a 6 and a 1. And true, if I was to fail I would just charge the 2nd Scarab unit. 2 9 unit Scarabs on the charge should Destroyer any enemy unit after it has been hit by the Exile Cannon via the Sentinel
I personally haven't run Sentinels yet but I dont see their value tbh, its a single gun that pretty much always shoots at a 4+, granted it can come up wherever it wants but still.... maybe theres something I'm not seeing, I have one waiting to be built, just finishing my TA for the tourney.
I find the Tomb Sentinel to be amazing tbh. It is hitting on 4+s when it moves or DS but don't think of that as a reason to not field one. I usually have mine backed up by 2 units of 9 Scarabs for some nasty tactics. Here's my break down. 1) move Scarabs units around an enemy unit you want dead 2) DS the Sentinel within 9.1 inches of the enemy unit and shoot your gun at it hoping to get it down a few wounds 3) charge one unit of Scarabs into the enemy to soak up the fire power then charge the Sentinel 4) Attack with your Sentinel and hopefully get the enemy down to it's last few wounds before attacking with the Scarabs 5) destroy enemy unit and consolidate toward another enemy unit.
Rinse and repeat what I said above and you have a reliable tank killer that is good At shooting even at 4+ and pretty good in CC. The Scarabs are mainly there to soak up wounds and to deny the enemy from leaving combat incase your still in CC on your opponents turn.
Most competitive is in relation to the meta, but any good list needs to be able to deal with hordes (100-200 models), a couple of vehicles, a big scary unit/model, flyers and have an answer to DS/CC armies.
Scarbs ,if placed right, can stop DS units from targeting your more important units and can make them deploy them further back then your opponent wanted. Gauss Pylon can deal with scary units and flyers. Tesla Immortals ,Tesla Cannons via TA and Gauss TBs can deal with hordes and Tomb Stalker can deal with Tanks.
I think the deciever is much more valuable than the nightbringer, solely due to his GI. Use it to bait a bad deployment for your opponent, then use it to reposition 2-3 scarab squads so you get massive board control pre-game.
The Deceivers GI is good and can help us out by letting us to re-deploy some units but the Nightbringer is always wounding on 2 unless against a Vehicle. Both C'tan are good it just depends on what you want from them. Either we Re-deploy D3 plus Deceiver or have a C'tan Beatstick backed up by Scarbs to make him untouchable.
I think 45-63 scarabs is too much though, thats nearly 600-1000 points invested in a screen/chaff unit. Stalker is good, but its basically a buff, which can be expensive when you consider how expensive the rest of the army is. The pylon doesn't need help to kill stuff, and you really need a bunch of weapons pointed at the same target to get a benefit. Tomb blades are good, I love them hence why I want to run them, they're fast and manoeuvrable while still putting out alot of damage. Still not sold on which loadout is better, its not as clear as on immortals, plus its handy to have the -2 rend on some infantry weaponry.
the reason I say 45-63 Scarabs is so I can have 2 units to act as meat shields for the Tomb Stalker and Nightbringer/Deceiver. Also, my local meta has all recently changed to Thousand Suns and Tzeentch meaning it's literally all pyskers atm in my local GW and Wargaming group. I like bringing loads of Scarabs so they can soak up smite and other pysk powers and leave my more valuable units alone. Also, I bubble wrap my main units (Triarch Stalker, Tesseract Ark, Gauss Pylon etc) to deny my opponent DS them and stop them from charging.
I usually bring two Tomb Stalkers if I don't bring a Triarch Stalker and have them work from the flanks inwards with 2 units of Scarabs each while my gun line will deal with the middle of the board.
I love Tomb Blades as well. I give them Tesla if I am not bringing Immortals but If I am I go with Gauss. 9 of them in RF range is 36 S5 -2 D1 and while you don't have to be up close and personal with Tesla, I rather thank the risk for Gauss as it has literally Destroyered every target I out at then (Unit of 5 Tyranid Warriors, unit of 20 conscripts, unit of 10 Ad Mech vanguard and unit of 3 Destroyers etc). I also give 4 of them the 5++ invul and the others the 3+. I don't bother with ignoring cover because of the -2 AP of the Gauss. That way in cover you can get a 2+ save and if you take a -4 AP wound you can allocate it on your 5++.
The nightbringer is a better beat stick but the Deciever is almost as good and his GI is incredibly powerful. Put 18 scarabs 9" away from your enemy t1 and your now either getting t1 charges, or you are taking up most of the board otherwise.
Like I said he beat list is subjective and meta dependent so if that many scarabs is working for you then that's your best list, but our 'top tier' comp lists probably won't be running that many, and even then not doing so good
Does anyone know what the top necron list was from NoVA? 51st place.
Klowny wrote: GI is incredibly powerful. Put 18 scarabs 9" away from your enemy t1 and your now either getting t1 charges, or you are taking up most of the board otherwise.
Well, any unit moved by GI can't charge that turn, so all you'd be able to do with them if you move them up is cover board area (I still say best thing to move up is shooters, so they can actually do something that first turn).
But in regards to Scarabs, what are their ideal targets? (and what things should they try to avoid getting tangled up with?)
and board control is very critical in a lot of missions, it rewards you by giving you more objectives/opportunities to steal/deny them from your opponents.
Scarabs work best against all hordes, but also are not bad against anything that doesnt have multiple attacks with D3-6 damage.
So stuff like trygon primes, every single GK model etc will absolutely wreck the unit
You have got very lucky if you've always made the 9" charge.
I've never like to spam one unit in my lists. For some reason it felt cheap to me to just find one unit that is good and just spam it. It removed some of the tactics/strategy element for me.
I'm not saying anyone doing that is using cheap tactics. No offence meant. I just prefer a more diverse army.
I do still want to try the sentinel. It's gun looks very nice. I put together a 2k point DS army with as many ds units as I can field just to see how it would do. It's not competitive obviously, but it should be a fun surprise.
I have always preferred the nightbringer to the deceiver. Redeploying part of my army kinda breaks up your force imo. And I just see it as a good way to get those units killed if you don't do as much damage as you hoped. The nightbringer fits more into my playstyle.
GI 10 Immortals into cover midfield, hard to displace them and they will take a disproportionate amount of firepower to wipe. Or 18 scarabs takes up half the board. Or 40 warriors into RF range. Lots of benefits to the GI, while still having a nasty CC threat and the majority of the nightbringers damage output
There was a guy running 6 DDA's and a Gauss Pylon + a couple of units of Scarabs at NOVA. He ended up in 134th place out of 213.
Best Necron player was at 51th place. Pretty good considering how good many other armies are.
She had something like:
- Overlord
- Cryptek
- 3 units of 10 Immortals (don't know if gauss or tesla)
- 3 units of 4 Wraiths
- 3 Annihilation Barges
- Gauss Pylon
Didn't find any other Necron players in the participation list unless they registered their Dynasty names instead.
I don’t know why, but I keep imagining playing a Nightshroud along with the stormlord vs my friend who plays chaos if only because he fields large squads of horrors and does full tier chain usually and I kind of want to turn that one big blob into three blobs and then lightning strike all of them after. Mostly because that visual of massive explosions followed by tiny warp explosions followed by energy weapons shooting at the dancing shadows within as more warp explosions occur and while that's going on clouds gather and then lightning just begins to rain.
Now to think of what else to field in these shenanigans...
Cmdr_Sune wrote: There was a guy running 6 DDA's and a Gauss Pylon + a couple of units of Scarabs at NOVA. He ended up in 134th place out of 213
This proves that DDA focused lists are not worth it. On paper your doing lots of wounds but that doesn't mean the dice are going to roll that way.
I would have brought 5 Tesseract Arks instead of 6 DDA. They would have done way better Imo.
You have got very lucky if you've always made the 9" charge.
Yeah, true that. I usually got a 4 and 5 on my charge rolls. However, whenever I tried to charge my Flayed One they have always failed. Even if I CP the roll.
I've never like to spam one unit in my lists.
I would not count bringing 2 of the same models as spamming? I have went up against 8 units of 9 brimstone horrors with 1 pink horror over the past 5 weeks which is the definition on spamming. Also, our Index is pretty weak so were kind of forced to "spam" our best units if we want to play competitivly. Otherwise I just field what I like.
How do y'all feel about the Tomb Sentinel v. Stalker.
On paper I like the Stalker better because of the extra attacks, but how does it work in practice?
Can a unit make any number of overwatch in a turn so long as it wipes each unit coming at it prior to moving on to the next?
ex: If squad A B and C are declaring charge vs Column A and each only have like 1 or 2 units left and I roll enough 6's and he rolls no saves or not enough to save squad A do I still get overwatch vs b and c assuming?
Lothmar wrote: Can a unit make any number of overwatch in a turn so long as it wipes each unit coming at it prior to moving on to the next?
ex: If squad A B and C are declaring charge vs Column A and each only have like 1 or 2 units left and I roll enough 6's and he rolls no saves or not enough to save squad A do I still get overwatch vs b and c assuming?
You can Overwatch any unit that charges you. But, once the enemy is in CC with your unit you can't Overwatch anymore. Even if your opponent is still declaring chsrges as each charge is take one at a time. E.g. he nominated A, B C vs your unit but he has to so As Overwatch then Charge (fails) then you Overwatch B then charges (succeeds) and then charges C without you getting Overwatched due to B getting into CC with your unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FireSkullz2 wrote: How do y'all feel about the Tomb Sentinel v. Stalker.
On paper I like the Stalker better because of the extra attacks, but how does it work in practice?
Sentinel is better. You lose 2 attacks but you get a Heavy D6 S 10 -4 D 3 weapon instead of Rapid fire 3 S 5 -1 D 1. I usually charge the unit I hit the Exile Cannon with. Makes up for the extra 2 attacks. However, it is up to you what you field. Rule of cool and all that.
Good to know... Does monoliths 'portal of exile' still work if a squad has already successfully charged it?
ex: If three squads (all non monster/vehicle) charge the monolith and squad A gets in and survives the overwatch and exile, then squad B and C charge would I still get the roll to do the mortal wounds vs them as well?
Lothmar wrote: Good to know... Does monoliths 'portal of exile' still work if a squad has already successfully charged it?
ex: If three squads (all non monster/vehicle) charge the monolith and squad A gets in and survives the overwatch and exile, then squad B and C charge would I still get the roll to do the mortal wounds vs them as well?
It does indeed and the enemy doesn't need to charge the Mono for PoE to activate they just need to finish their charge with an inch of the Mono. So say you had warriors that got charged and your opponent ended 1" away from the Mono then it's PoE can activate (As far as I am concerned, I never had my Mono charged as I have only tried it once).
Portal of Exile wording;
When an enemy unit (other than a MONSTER or VEHICLE) finishes a charge move within 1" of this model, its portal of exile may activate. Roll a D6 and compare it to the Value required on the damage table above. If the roll is successful, the charging unit suffers D6 mortal wounds.
Having used Anarkyr with Lychguard I know they can eat anything that is not a horde that they touch, and even hordes can be mowed down, albeit at a disproportionate points investment.
Kutlakh is neat as if you roll a 6 for the Lych run they become really nasty and you can pull off all kinds of charge/objective shenanigans.
Nightbringer surrounded by scarabs is nasty and single handedly cut down a Space Wolf flyer with the magna-melta or something. I always felt bad for him falling too early on 7th but having him screened feels almost like cheating =P
I tabled my opponent Turn 4 after wiping a terminator squad on one edge of the table, consolidating towards another, then sprinting across and charging another at the opposite corner, all due to rolling high on advance and charge rolls allowing me to engage at 1'' distance with a few models so the others can fight from the second rank.
Lothmar wrote: Good to know... Does monoliths 'portal of exile' still work if a squad has already successfully charged it?
ex: If three squads (all non monster/vehicle) charge the monolith and squad A gets in and survives the overwatch and exile, then squad B and C charge would I still get the roll to do the mortal wounds vs them as well?
It does indeed and the enemy doesn't need to charge the Mono for PoE to activate they just need to finish their charge with an inch of the Mono. So say you had warriors that got charged and your opponent ended 1" away from the Mono then it's PoE can activate (As far as I am concerned, I never had my Mono charged as I have only tried it once).
Portal of Exile wording;
When an enemy unit (other than a MONSTER or VEHICLE) finishes a charge move within 1" of this model, its portal of exile may activate. Roll a D6 and compare it to the Value required on the damage table above. If the roll is successful, the charging unit suffers D6 mortal wounds.
You can't move to within 1" of a unit you didn't declare a charge against though, unless I'm mistaken
Wraiths seem to be in a good spot right now. They are ok vs hoards and OK vs elites but are poorly used against heavy armor (hence the Pylon in her Nova list). The Forge World ones are a elite and armor killers with a -1 to hit instead of 3 up invuln.
Maybe with the Chapter Approved book adjustimg points including Forge World we will see some more varied lists.
Not Scarab BASED, as far as I've seen, but all of them tend to include some.
(and a Pylon. Looks like those two are going to be mainstays in the competitive scene for a while yet, probably accompanied by Immortals as well)
Cmdr_Sune wrote: There was a guy running 6 DDA's and a Gauss Pylon + a couple of units of Scarabs at NOVA. He ended up in 134th place out of 213
This proves that DDA focused lists are not worth it. On paper your doing lots of wounds but that doesn't mean the dice are going to roll that way.
I would have brought 5 Tesseract Arks instead of 6 DDA. They would have done way better Imo.
You have got very lucky if you've always made the 9" charge.
Yeah, true that. I usually got a 4 and 5 on my charge rolls. However, whenever I tried to charge my Flayed One they have always failed. Even if I CP the roll.
I've never like to spam one unit in my lists.
I would not count bringing 2 of the same models as spamming? I have went up against 8 units of 9 brimstone horrors with 1 pink horror over the past 5 weeks which is the definition on spamming. Also, our Index is pretty weak so were kind of forced to "spam" our best units if we want to play competitivly. Otherwise I just field what I like.
Just for posterity the guy running 6 DDA's dropped the last 2 games. If he got 2-12pt losses it would have jumped him to 40-60th place. So that's not a really accurate statement.
I've got an upcoming Escalation league coming up and would like recommendations on lists. We're starting at 500pts and moving up 250pts each week up until a 2000pt army. You have to build off of your current list each week. You can add models to the unit and change weapons. We're doing 2v2's.
I'm thinking for my starting squad:
Patrol Detachment HQ
Orikan the Diviner [143pts]
TROOPS
Warriors x18 [216pts]
Immortals x6 (Tesla) [102pts]
FAST ATTACK
Canoptek Scarabs [39pts]
TOTAL POINTS: 500
My main plan here was to have a solid amount of troops to take advantage of RP during these low model number battles. Orikan is there mainly to boost the RP. I don't think his Empowered ability will pop in such small games, but Ideally a couple weeks down the line with larger armies that'll be of more use. I also like his extended aura range over regular Crypteks so I can spread my troops out a little more. I'm on the fence of tesla vs gauss Immortals... I'm hoping the 6-roll proc would help since these first couple weeks will probably be mostly troops, but I'm not sure how often it'll happen with only running 6 of them, and no MWBD on the Immortals yet. I'm temped to go gauss for a couple weeks until I can add in an Overlord.
The following week I plan on adding in a Ghost Ark, adding 4 Immortals (bringing them to a total of 10), and adding one Warrior (bringing them to 19), which would land the list at 750.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: There was a guy running 6 DDA's and a Gauss Pylon + a couple of units of Scarabs at NOVA. He ended up in 134th place out of 213.
Best Necron player was at 51th place. Pretty good considering how good many other armies are.
She had something like:
- Overlord
- Cryptek
- 3 units of 10 Immortals (don't know if gauss or tesla)
- 3 units of 4 Wraiths
- 3 Annihilation Barges
- Gauss Pylon
Is there somewhere we can check these lists online?
I've got an upcoming Escalation league coming up and would like recommendations on lists. We're starting at 500pts and moving up 250pts each week up until a 2000pt army. You have to build off of your current list each week. You can add models to the unit and change weapons. We're doing 2v2's.
Spoiler:
I'm thinking for my starting squad:
Patrol Detachment HQ
Orikan the Diviner [143pts]
TROOPS
Warriors x18 [216pts]
Immortals x6 (Tesla) [102pts]
FAST ATTACK
Canoptek Scarabs [39pts]
TOTAL POINTS: 500
My main plan here was to have a solid amount of troops to take advantage of RP during these low model number battles. Orikan is there mainly to boost the RP. I don't think his Empowered ability will pop in such small games, but Ideally a couple weeks down the line with larger armies that'll be of more use. I also like his extended aura range over regular Crypteks so I can spread my troops out a little more. I'm on the fence of tesla vs gauss Immortals... I'm hoping the 6-roll proc would help since these first couple weeks will probably be mostly troops, but I'm not sure how often it'll happen with only running 6 of them, and no MWBD on the Immortals yet. I'm temped to go gauss for a couple weeks until I can add in an Overlord.
The following week I plan on adding in a Ghost Ark, adding 4 Immortals (bringing them to a total of 10), and adding one Warrior (bringing them to 19), which would land the list at 750.
Any recommendations?
Hmm, definitely wouldn't be taking a named HQ at such a low point level.
I'm not so hot on the Warriors, either.
Are you restricted to starting with Patrol Detachments, or can you use anything?
Also, what do you have available?
If I was going to a 500 point escalation tournament, I'd probably go for Scarabs, Tesla Immortals, and an Overlord to start with, then possibly some Gauss Tomb Blades or Wraiths. Could probably make a decent Outrider from that.
I've got an upcoming Escalation league coming up and would like recommendations on lists. We're starting at 500pts and moving up 250pts each week up until a 2000pt army. You have to build off of your current list each week. You can add models to the unit and change weapons. We're doing 2v2's.
Spoiler:
I'm thinking for my starting squad:
Patrol Detachment HQ
Orikan the Diviner [143pts]
TROOPS
Warriors x18 [216pts]
Immortals x6 (Tesla) [102pts]
FAST ATTACK
Canoptek Scarabs [39pts]
TOTAL POINTS: 500
My main plan here was to have a solid amount of troops to take advantage of RP during these low model number battles. Orikan is there mainly to boost the RP. I don't think his Empowered ability will pop in such small games, but Ideally a couple weeks down the line with larger armies that'll be of more use. I also like his extended aura range over regular Crypteks so I can spread my troops out a little more. I'm on the fence of tesla vs gauss Immortals... I'm hoping the 6-roll proc would help since these first couple weeks will probably be mostly troops, but I'm not sure how often it'll happen with only running 6 of them, and no MWBD on the Immortals yet. I'm temped to go gauss for a couple weeks until I can add in an Overlord.
The following week I plan on adding in a Ghost Ark, adding 4 Immortals (bringing them to a total of 10), and adding one Warrior (bringing them to 19), which would land the list at 750.
Any recommendations?
Hmm, definitely wouldn't be taking a named HQ at such a low point level.
I'm not so hot on the Warriors, either.
Are you restricted to starting with Patrol Detachments, or can you use anything?
Also, what do you have available?
If I was going to a 500 point escalation tournament, I'd probably go for Scarabs, Tesla Immortals, and an Overlord to start with, then possibly some Gauss Tomb Blades or Wraiths. Could probably make a decent Outrider from that.
Yeah we're restricted to Patrol Detachments.
I've got a good bit to choose from. I have about 60 warriors, 10 gauss Immortals, 10 Tesla Immortals, 10 Praetorians, 10 Lychguard, 3 Wraiths, 6 gauss Tomb Blades, Triarch Stalker, a Ghost Ark, a Doomsday Ark, a Cryptek, an Overlord (scythe), Nemesor Zahndrekh, Orikan the Diviner, and I'd say roughly 12 Scarabs.
I was going to stay away from named HQs at the start, but I figured I'd have him in eventually so I threw him in there... but I'm definitely open to switching things around.
SS - Are you playing the type that lets you take piece-mail and partial you dont have to buy in batches so long as you meet minimums?
ie - Minimum warrior squad 10, can take 10 more for a max of 20 at 12 points per means you can buy it as 10 for 120 or 20 for 240. Compared to being able to say buy 15 for 180?
---
If you're playing normal cohesion rules and battleforging, I might suggest the following for 500 if you're going RP centric...
This gives you RP at 4+ RP and 5+ invuls on your warriors in case of -2 and beyond ap weapons but your cryptek will be twiddling his thumbs for the most part. Once at the start of the turn and once at the end of the move as long as the Ghost ark is alive and the ghost ark is almost another entire infantry line. When enemies start getting into risky business territory where you think they're gonna run at you send the Ghost ark in close, broadside it and then float in to wrap that threat to your warriors.
Then on your next turn pull out with Ghost ark cause it's a flyer and can still shoot after and use it as a blockade they have to go around and fire with that and warriors unless other targets pressing and position it so your Warrior squad gets its secondary RP if it needs it (if it doesn't think strategically). Granted this strat is less effective or have insane melee, but the ghost ark is somewhat tanky with decent wounds and if they have multi wound weapons you have a chance of ignoring it with Quantum shielding. Plus if they do destroy it you might kamikaze that group and other squads in range if you explode so always position with your own death in mind if it doesn't mess up your strategy otherwise.
This concept is also slightly less effective if they have means of withdrawing and still doing stuff - ex: Imperial guard orders
I've got an upcoming Escalation league coming up and would like recommendations on lists. We're starting at 500pts and moving up 250pts each week up until a 2000pt army. You have to build off of your current list each week. You can add models to the unit and change weapons. We're doing 2v2's.
Spoiler:
I'm thinking for my starting squad:
Patrol Detachment HQ
Orikan the Diviner [143pts]
TROOPS
Warriors x18 [216pts]
Immortals x6 (Tesla) [102pts]
FAST ATTACK
Canoptek Scarabs [39pts]
TOTAL POINTS: 500
My main plan here was to have a solid amount of troops to take advantage of RP during these low model number battles. Orikan is there mainly to boost the RP. I don't think his Empowered ability will pop in such small games, but Ideally a couple weeks down the line with larger armies that'll be of more use. I also like his extended aura range over regular Crypteks so I can spread my troops out a little more. I'm on the fence of tesla vs gauss Immortals... I'm hoping the 6-roll proc would help since these first couple weeks will probably be mostly troops, but I'm not sure how often it'll happen with only running 6 of them, and no MWBD on the Immortals yet. I'm temped to go gauss for a couple weeks until I can add in an Overlord.
The following week I plan on adding in a Ghost Ark, adding 4 Immortals (bringing them to a total of 10), and adding one Warrior (bringing them to 19), which would land the list at 750.
Any recommendations?
Hmm, definitely wouldn't be taking a named HQ at such a low point level. I'm not so hot on the Warriors, either.
Are you restricted to starting with Patrol Detachments, or can you use anything? Also, what do you have available?
If I was going to a 500 point escalation tournament, I'd probably go for Scarabs, Tesla Immortals, and an Overlord to start with, then possibly some Gauss Tomb Blades or Wraiths. Could probably make a decent Outrider from that.
Yeah we're restricted to Patrol Detachments.
I've got a good bit to choose from. I have about 60 warriors, 10 gauss Immortals, 10 Tesla Immortals, 10 Praetorians, 10 Lychguard, 3 Wraiths, 6 gauss Tomb Blades, Triarch Stalker, a Ghost Ark, a Doomsday Ark, a Cryptek, an Overlord (scythe), Nemesor Zahndrekh, Orikan the Diviner, and I'd say roughly 12 Scarabs.
I was going to stay away from named HQs at the start, but I figured I'd have him in eventually so I threw him in there... but I'm definitely open to switching things around.
Hmm, while 18 Warriors will give you some good board presence, you're going to be lacking mobility. 3 Scarabs is a start, but you might want to shift those numbers around (drop a few Warriors to gain a second unit of Scarabs).
Personally I was thinking something along these lines:
For 500p I'd start with a cryptek or overlord. Whatever you prefer, and add 2 units of immortals (8+5) and maybe a triarch stalker or some heavy destroyers. That way you should be covered. Or 1 unit of 10 teslamortals, OL, stalker and some Scarabs.
Hmm, if you have someone willing to play necrons with you as your partner you might be able to get into some interesting dynasty shenanigans and each of you would play half of the 1000 point army since the leadership abilities tend to say 'to friendly <dynasty> necrons units/infantry' (thus squad A's cryptek could improve squad B's RP and give invuls to them and Squad B's OL could MWBD squad A's infantry instead of his own if he so desired. *chuckle*
Spoiler:
ex:
Player 1 -
total 496
Cryptek 104
Necron Immortals (tesla if 5+ armor enemies on average, gauss if 4-) - 10x - 170
Ghost ark - 170
Scarabs 4x - 52
Player 2 - 485
Overlord + staff - 119
Warriors 20x - 240
Wraiths + PC - 42 x 3 - 126
(if you can shift points to your partner consider running only 5x immorts not taking the scarabs and your partner can probably figure out something for the 156 points. or to save time have partner shift you his 15 for one more scarab)
If you're really looking to save points you could consider running only a 10 man squad of warriors instead on Player 1 instead of immortals and keep em in the ghost ark till you get in close then disembark them when the time is right that way you're meeting your 1 infantry squad requirement and have 50 points for elsewhere.
We're playing battle-forged, no partial units. First week is Patrol Detachment. Week 2 (750pt) is Patrol or Battalion Detachment. Weeks 3 & 4 (1000pt & 1250pt) is 2 Detachments. Weeks 5, 6, and 7 (1500pt, 1750pt, and 2000pt finale tournament) are 3 Detachments.
I believe we are playing Just War rules (though I'm not sure, rules aren't very clear), so capping objectives doesn't seem to be a concern. That's why I originally didn't mind the lack of mobility, and was mostly aiming for a way to provide a more overwhelming force. I assume the first couple weeks will be mostly infantry-focused. That's why my original plan was to push the most out of RP to gain numbers back while we trade shots. Seemed to be the best strategy at low points. Later in the series I feel like I won't be able to rely on RP as much, but I think it would be an advantage early on.
I considered putting in the Ghost Ark in the first week list, but I have concerns. I haven't played many 8th games yet, but I don't believe our 500pt games will go to turn 6. Thus, I wont have many RP rolls. So, I was trying to weigh the point cost of a Ghost Ark and how many Warriors I could expect to pick back up with it compared to just having a whole other unit of Warriors.
Way I see it, if I field 18 Warriors w/ a Cryptek, each of my RP rolls have a 1/3 chance of procing. I'm going to assume the game will be over by battle round 5. If they take out 6 Warriors a turn, then on Round 2, I roll back 1/3 of them, so I'd theoretically get back 2, with 4 still dead. A second RP from the GA would bring me back 1 more (1/3 x 4). On Round 3, if I assume 6 more Warrior deaths, I'd have a total of 10 dead. So my RP would bring back 3, with 7 still dead. A second RP with the GA would bring back 2 more, leaving 5 dead. On Round 4, with 6 more dead, for a total of 11 in limbo, my RP would bring back 3, leaving 8 dead. A second RP from GA would bring back 2 more, leaving 6. Round 5 with 6 more dead would have a total of 12 laying down, first RP would bring back 4, leaving 8. Second RP would bring back 2. At that point with my hypothetical numbers we reach a soft curve.
Overall in this situation, I'm seeing the GA bringing back a total of 7 additional Warriors. That's a value of 84 points. That's half the cost of the GA. However, I have to compare that to just running 170 points of Warriors. If I ran more warriors, that's more rolls at RP which would be more overall wounds returned compared to Living Metal. I'm just not sure if it's worth it.
@Lothmar - I don't believe the Cryptek can take a Hyperphase sword. Unless I'm mistaken, his datasheet states he has the Staff of Light and doesn't state he has the option for another Melee Weapon.
Actually RP is 5+ standard and with a Cryptek that's 4+, thus it goes from 1/3 chance to 1/2 chance on D6.
Therefor if you lose 8 on enemies turn then on your turn you'll probably get back 4 at the start of the turn and then 2 more at the end of the turn on average (though i've got 18/19 down back over one round (16 of those on first check) before and nearly broke my opponents spirit after he got me down to 1 model so I kind of like it. xD).
Spoiler:
The ghost ark has the firepower of 10 warriors and gives you that second RP chance so I think it's well worth the 50 points difference considering it gets more wounds, has higher toughness so hard too wound, is a flyer and has a chance of ignoring bigger damage with QS. But yeah since GA only works with warriors and only one squad of them can get GA bonus per GA you have to kind of build it to a specific theme.
But yeah a second squad of 14 warriors (168) with 4+ RP is pretty decent too but if like you're saying you have to field according to the rules you cant do (cause can only buy in set of 10 or set of 20)...
But yeah multiple ghost arks are kind of funny later since they don’t cap how many times you can use them (so long as you don’t use a rez orb). So if they go to try and wipe a squad of em and fail then you can get half up, then get half up again and if that squad still has more lost then your other warrior squad then get half up yet again from that squad. *chuckle* So from 2 to 11 to 15/16.
----
That reminds me, since GHost arks grant a new RP roll and ghost arks say you cant use its ability if a Res orb has been used that turn... Does that mean as long as I trigger Rez orb last after say a terrible ghost ark roll and I need to refill a squad I can then pop a rez orb and roll again?
Lothmar wrote: Actually RP is 5+ standard and with a Cryptek that's 4+, thus it goes from 1/3 chance to 1/2 chance on D6.
Therefor if you lose 8 on enemies turn then on your turn you'll probably get back 4 at the start of the turn and then 2 more at the end of the turn on average (though i've got 18/19 down back over one round (16 of those on first check) before and nearly broke my opponents spirit after he got me down to 1 model so I kind of like it. xD).
Spoiler:
The ghost ark has the firepower of 10 warriors and gives you that second RP chance so I think it's well worth the 50 points difference considering it gets more wounds, has higher toughness so hard too wound, is a flyer and has a chance of ignoring bigger damage with QS. But yeah since GA only works with warriors and only one squad of them can get GA bonus per GA you have to kind of build it to a specific theme.
But yeah a second squad of 14 warriors (168) with 4+ RP is pretty decent too but if like you're saying you have to field according to the rules you cant do (cause can only buy in set of 10 or set of 20)...
But yeah multiple ghost arks are kind of funny later since they don’t cap how many times you can use them (so long as you don’t use a rez orb). So if they go to try and wipe a squad of em and fail then you can get half up, then get half up again and if that squad still has more lost then your other warrior squad then get half up yet again from that squad. *chuckle* So from 2 to 11 to 15/16.
----
That reminds me, since GHost arks grant a new RP roll and ghost arks say you cant use its ability if a Res orb has been used that turn... Does that mean as long as I trigger Rez orb last after say a terrible ghost ark roll and I need to refill a squad I can then pop a rez orb and roll again?
Ah yes I mathed wrong. As for the second squad statement, I'm not sure what you mean by it not being allowed in the rules. The minimum number of models per unit is 10, and each additional Warrior is +12 points, so 14 Warriors would work fine. The only way I could see that not working would be playing by Power Level where it states a unit is 10, plus 6PL for 10 more. Maybe I wasn't clear when I said we weren't doing partial squads. What I meant is we don't allow things like a Warrior squad of 5. By partial I meant custom size squads below the minimum. We can use any amount between the minimum and maximum.
As for your Ghost Ark / Res Orb question, unfortunately you cannot. You make your initial RP at the start of your turn. Resurrection Orb states that you may use it "once per battle, immediately after you have made your Reanimation Protocols rolls..." whereas the Ghost Ark states that you cast its RP at the end of the movement phase. So unfortunately due to timing, you have to use the Res Orb at the start of your turn, thus determining if you can use the Ghost Ark on a squad or not. I mean, I guess rules as written, the Ghost Ark states under Repair Barge, "at the end of each of your Movement phases, you can make Reanimation Protocol rolls for any slain models..." and the Res Orb states " immediately after you have made your Reanimation Protocol rolls" so I guess you could argue that the GA roll calls itself a RP roll, but I would assume that will get worded correctly in the codex.
Yep that was my suggestion as well. Gives you some solid units. A combo in tesla + MWBD + stalker rerolls + an answer for someone going with a big horde blob and a stalker to deal with any razorbacks or other tanks passing by.
I still don't like the running away mechanic. Necrons would just never run away. They'd fall back sure, but never individually, always as a unit. If they would put the loss of models as extra casualties because of the pressure of war and the 100s of reasons a unit under that amount of fire could take extra casualties/out of action that would be perfectly fine with me, but running away is just so not according to the fluff that I really dislike that.
I'm not just salty for a necron nerf, but they need to come up with a legitimate reason why perfectly functional Warriors would "decide" to phase out while their unit is still fighting.
And if they did for some reason do this I see no reason why they couldn't teleport in again when you make a successful RP roll.
I hope this will also change in our book...
So is just for the AP-3 but it is better to have an extra Immortal or Scarab. Originally I was going to recommend the Warscythe but thought the SoL would suit better.
RP not working for break tests
Ah, I thought he was on about Res Orb getting errata'd. My bad lads.
Odrankt wrote: So is just for the AP-3 but it is better to have an extra Immortal or Scarab. Originally I was going to recommend the Warscythe but thought the SoL would suit better.
Odrankt wrote: So is just for the AP-3 but it is better to have an extra Immortal or Scarab. Originally I was going to recommend the Warscythe but thought the SoL would suit better.
?
Warscythe AP-4
Sword/Blade AP-3
Staff AP-2
Miss clicked -3 instead of -2 and so was supposed to be SoL as well...
SoL I think works better because it can both shoot and melee. SoL gives your Immortals a little more protection if your enemy is in range for a charge. While the scythe is good for it's -4 AP and that the Overlord can Heroic Intervention if the Immortals are locked in CC.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: There was a guy running 6 DDA's and a Gauss Pylon + a couple of units of Scarabs at NOVA. He ended up in 134th place out of 213.
Best Necron player was at 51th place. Pretty good considering how good many other armies are.
She had something like:
- Overlord
- Cryptek
- 3 units of 10 Immortals (don't know if gauss or tesla)
- 3 units of 4 Wraiths
- 3 Annihilation Barges
- Gauss Pylon
Didn't find any other Necron players in the participation list unless they registered their Dynasty names instead.
Annihilation Barge with Gauss Cannon
Annihilation Barge with Gauss Cannon
Annihilation Barge with Gauss Cannon
Gauss Pylon
1999pts, 6CP
Huh, interesting that a list like that was able to perform as well as it did.
Granted, it's mostly down to the player's skill, and she is certainly better than I, so she'd be able to pull things off with this that I probably wouldn't think of... but right now I'm kinda scratching my head at some of these choices (eg. three 10 man Warrior squads?)
Wish I could view her games to see how she played it.
Wish I could view her games to see how she played it.
She actually did a featured game play on Warhammer TVs twitch channel during Nova Open, she played against her husbands ultramarines I believe. It was an interesting game, and enjoyable to watch aswell.
I don't remember the entire game, but she did deep strike the pylon and deleted two gunships (one on turn 1 and the other one on the consecutive turn), the barges flew around shooting stuff and capping objectives and the warriors stayed with the overlord and the cryptek.
And for the wraiths, they soaked damage and kept things occypied in melee.
She clearly aimed for objective control and won against ultramarines with full points (18 or 21, dont remember the score) vs 6 or 8 pts.
Hmm, I wonder if there's a recording of that video anywhere online to view for free (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/171679882 , but GW's vids are all behind a subscription paywall on twitch).
Still, some of those choices seem like they might have been better with other things... but again, that might just be my limited view scope.
For example, why take Gauss Cannons on the Barges instead of Tesla? If the intent for them was to be mobile, wouldn't that have worked better?
If the troops were just hanging back, why not take min Immortal units instead of Warriors? Cheaper and if Tesla would be able to benefit more from MWBD.
Why not swap out one of those Wraith units out for a unit of Scarabs? Might be better able to swamp something in attacks.
Why not take Toholk instead of a generic Cryptek? He'd do the same job, plus make the Pylon harder to kill.
Etc.
Interesting. The key to being succesfull with ABarges (I think), is having juicier targets for the enemy to shoot at. The pylon and bite-sized warrior units in this case
I've been taking a harder look at the Monolith these days and man, the improvements they have made it kinda sneek up on you. I ran them in 6th when they were very unpopular. Through various changes to the main rules and index they fixed the Deep Strike scatter issue, Snap shooting it's Gauss Flux Arcs (no more Ordinance), brought back Portal of Exile, no more getting one-shotted, no more rolling for reserves (allowing for Alpha strikes), no more getting Immobilized, and my personal favorite ALL of it's guns can fire at the same target now! Good stuff. What do you guys think of it now?
They say there will be Points adjustments in Chapter Approved so cross your fingers for our poor Mono.
I for one seeing the cool things Death Guard have gives me hope for our codex; Fluff of never wanting to get close to that plague ridden mass is now supported by rules that make it painful to get close.
Just listened to the latest Signals from the Frontline podcast where someone sent in a question about Necrons lack of presence at tournaments. Frankie and Reese answered that Necrons are really good and stupidly resilent.
They also mentioned how a unit of Tomb blades wiped out a 30 model screen in one turn. Eh, I guess the screen wasn't immune to morale?
Then they continued talking about Destroyers and their "extreme firepower" and how RP always brought them back unless wiped out.
I guess they must be talking about the codex since according to my index both units are grossly overpriced.
They'd mentioned before that Necrons were "good" but had never bothered to say how. This time they at least gave some examples of what was good... but didn't address the price issue.
Pyrothem wrote: They say there will be Points adjustments in Chapter Approved so cross your fingers for our poor Mono.
I for one seeing the cool things Death Guard have gives me hope for our codex; Fluff of never wanting to get close to that plague ridden mass is now supported by rules that make it painful to get close.
skoffs wrote: They'd mentioned before that Necrons were "good" but had never bothered to say how. This time they at least gave some examples of what was good... but didn't address the price issue.
None of them play Necrons competitively and it shows. They threw together lists for the night streams and did things like run Lychguard on foot with 3 HQs backing them, or deep striking 20 man Flayed One blobs and then going for a 9" charge. Fun, and potentially strong if your opponent isn't doing crazy stuff, but nothing I would ever bring to a tournament.
skoffs wrote: They'd mentioned before that Necrons were "good" but had never bothered to say how. This time they at least gave some examples of what was good... but didn't address the price issue.
They sure have a lot of experience of different factions in 8th and are probably a lot better than me at the game, but neither of the units they mentioned have much firepower or are particularly resilient.
What Destroyers and Tomb blades do have is a bit of everything which makes them cost much. They can be great when facing the right opponent or if the meta is shifting towards more infantry based list.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Just listened to the latest Signals from the Frontline podcast where someone sent in a question about Necrons lack of presence at tournaments. Frankie and Reese answered that Necrons are really good and stupidly resilent.
They also mentioned how a unit of Tomb blades wiped out a 30 model screen in one turn. Eh, I guess the screen wasn't immune to morale?
Then they continued talking about Destroyers and their "extreme firepower" and how RP always brought them back unless wiped out.
I guess they must be talking about the codex since according to my index both units are grossly overpriced.
Sadly they are talking about index necrons, they said the same thing in a battle report using them, waxing lyrical about how amazing necrons are... They clearly have very little clue on necrons. I hope they have no input on our codex!
LOL Frontline has clearly never used Necrons vs a hard list. "They are sooooo good! RP is so amazing!"
Yup the Necrons are so good and tuff with RP that no competitive list (if you can call getting 51st competive) uses RP as part of their strategy! I guess everyone knows how powerful it is and chooses not to use it to make it a fair fight...
Sadly they are talking about index necrons, they said the same thing in a battle report using them, waxing lyrical about how amazing necrons are... They clearly have very little clue on necrons. I hope they have no input on our codex!
Players who don't normally play Necrons always think we're a lot stronger and resilient then what we actually are. I hope GW doesn't use them as a way to shape our codex. It's always in Podcasts were I hear people "praising" about our Index and that we are in a good place. Yet when I go to my local and talk competitivly people always raise their brows and say that Necrons are not in a good place and I should focus on a different army until they (us) get better.
People just have a vendetta against crons because of 7th edit. and I fear it's going to give us a really hard time in 8th. I hope I get proven wrong but as long as people say we are "good" nothing will be improved.
Yeah it's kinda funny, they're saying that necrons are very strong, but then they also said the top players they were talking to all said necrons couldn't compete at top tables/competitively, and they disagree. They then talk about RP and then coming back.... it's a 5+ gah I thought they were talking about codex stuff but they clearly think index crons are powerful.
They were basically saying l2p, bat necrons were hard to play and expensive but that we can do a Deciever bomb and a obryn bomb and have a really 'tough' army in their face t1...... :d
It is a 5 up and it has to be placed next to an original model and can not be within 1 inch of enemy's... Against any opponent that can remember this, all the vaulted toughness we pay out the nose for is negated.
The comments I usually leave on YouTube videos where people are whining about Necrons being too good are,
"Necrons are "good" in casual games, but in competitive circumstances they're so lowly rated that most people don't even bother bringing them to big events. (though if you can prove me wrong, I would love to see a list someone managed to place with at a major tourney!)" ...
That usually ends the conversation.
Instead of playing to win we could play to halt our enemy? It sounds stupid if we're in the competitive scene but maybe we should focus on lists that can "survive" rather then lists that can win or out power our enemy.
I like using lots of Scarabs for meat shielding, holding up enemy units, scoring objectives and denying DS opportunity.
Spoiler:
I found great success with 2 units of 9 Scarabs shielding the Nightbringer, Tomb Sentinel and the Destroyer Lord e.g. have one up front and as it depletes bring the second unit in front instead. Usually last 3 turns before they are wiped out. I know the TS isn't a character but I usually try to get it into CC if possible surrounded by Scarabs to deny an enemy falling back.
"Suicide" Scarabs also work for me. 5 units of 4-6 Scarabs are good if you are able to get them in LoS blocking terrain, then into CC with enemy units to stop them from targeting more valuable units.
Putting 3 Scarab units on objectives has also denied my enemy from winning sometimes. Even if the objective isn't important to me I would rather hold onto it just in case my opponent needs it. It also distracts them from our other models if playing a point scoring game using the objective cards so leaved us room to think of new tactics and see if we can pull a victory.
I also like having my Scarabs deployed in front of my units and behind them during deployment. I usually place them last so I know what needs Shielding and can counter any units they want to DS. This may sound cheesy but for every 4 models of 32mm based Scarabs I usually have 1 25mm in between those 4 just so make sure my opponent has no way of DS any where near me. It's a bit cheesy but it has worked a few times when done right.
Looks something like this; (big S is 32mm, small S is 25mm)
Some people don't like spamming the same unit over and over but if it works then might as well use it. Would be better if I didn't have to use them though...
To stop a unit with the fly keyword word from being able to move in between the Scarabs making it harder for my opponent to get into a better position. Has helped about 3 time since I tried it out.
I also didnt have enough 32mm bases left so I went 25mm cause i had loads from my Warriors that I made into Flayed Ones.
Yeah man they would, but 7mm difference is not that much of a difference if the enemy has to be 1 inch away from all enemy models. Just put the smaller bases and the back line of 32mm Scarabs 7mm closer to the front line of 32mm Scarabs.
I rather use what I have and make more space for future purchases then buy something I don't really need and cause more spacing issues lol.
Odrankt wrote: Instead of playing to win we could play to halt our enemy? It sounds stupid if we're in the competitive scene but maybe we should focus on lists that can "survive" rather then lists that can win or out power our enemy.
I like using lots of Scarabs for meat shielding, holding up enemy units, scoring objectives and denying DS opportunity.
Spoiler:
I found great success with 2 units of 9 Scarabs shielding the Nightbringer, Tomb Sentinel and the Destroyer Lord e.g. have one up front and as it depletes bring the second unit in front instead. Usually last 3 turns before they are wiped out. I know the TS isn't a character but I usually try to get it into CC if possible surrounded by Scarabs to deny an enemy falling back.
"Suicide" Scarabs also work for me. 5 units of 4-6 Scarabs are good if you are able to get them in LoS blocking terrain, then into CC with enemy units to stop them from targeting more valuable units.
Putting 3 Scarab units on objectives has also denied my enemy from winning sometimes. Even if the objective isn't important to me I would rather hold onto it just in case my opponent needs it. It also distracts them from our other models if playing a point scoring game using the objective cards so leaved us room to think of new tactics and see if we can pull a victory.
I also like having my Scarabs deployed in front of my units and behind them during deployment. I usually place them last so I know what needs Shielding and can counter any units they want to DS. This may sound cheesy but for every 4 models of 32mm based Scarabs I usually have 1 25mm in between those 4 just so make sure my opponent has no way of DS any where near me. It's a bit cheesy but it has worked a few times when done right.
Looks something like this; (big S is 32mm, small S is 25mm)
Some people don't like spamming the same unit over and over but if it works then might as well use it. Would be better if I didn't have to use them though...
I dont see the point in playing competitively if we arent playing to win. Straight survive armies wont do good as we .... dont survive that good.
Scarabs seem to be a must But without anything really point efficient to protect it is a wash. Also they go poof when they run into the meta. A conscript blob with their dumb orders will shred scarabs with weight of fire or when you find out that bloodletters are nuts!(lost two units of 5 scarabs to 8 bloodletters in one round).
On the bright side I did get a win the other day against a Demon spam list. With two cheap Overlords, two Stalkers with P Beams, and nothing else but Tasla Immortals. Every other army spams their Mathhammered out best unit so why not give it a try.
I went up against a tournament level IG army and Tzeentch army. Lost to IG narrowly 10-11 and beat Tzeentch 9-7 in those games.
For the 1st 2-3 turns of those games I hung back and made my opponent come towards me in the hopes of them pushing their units forwards to shoot at my units (Scarabs helped by going on objectives that my opponent needed).From my turn 3 I then DS my units (Deathmarks and Tomb Sentinels) behind his units and then start to move my units toward theirs.
Tzeentch wasn't to hard to deal with. Deathmarks killed The Changling making everything else quite squishy. The only reason he lasted the whole game was because he moved his Lord of Change away from the middle to some terrain to protect it with LoS. I then played the objective game and won.
IG was all different. Popped a few tanks but a lot of his army was T8 so getting 5+ to wounds on the majority of my models wasn't easy to do. He won by moving a tank unit (insert name here) at a objective my unit of Scarabs was on and literally targeted all his units at them so that he would score the 1 point at the end of his turn 7.
Necrons are probably the best mid-range army so why chase our enemies when we can give them a reason to come towards us by taking objectives they need.
It up to you on how you play your Necrons. I just found that being defensive works better then offensive.
Also, when I say don't play to win I mean dont go into games thinking your army is going to beat everyone else's. A lot of armies are high offensive with little defence. Play the defensive game. Pre-measure if you have to just don't get all your units into the gun range. If using a unit of 10 warriors just put 3 in your opponents fire range, have him blast away at those 3 models, keep the other 7 in safety then RP those 3 warriors and use the same tactic on your next turn. If behind cover I keep some out of it just to bait my opponent into shooting at them. It has worked before and I wouldn't recommend it if It didn't work for me.
So the highest placing necrons in the majority of lists have had a substantial amount of wraiths in them, one recently had 30, and placed 7th overall (was a smaller tournament).
In a straight up stat check vs their closest counterpart (scarabs) they are more expensive, but much more durable and have higher quality attacks but scarabs are much cheaper, have a huge wound advantage, attack advantage and are better against T8.
A wraith spam list bypasses the biggest weakness of wraiths, and thats smite spam, which is fairly common in the meta ATM. Even putting out 30 mortal wounds only kills 10 wraiths a turn, and those wraiths will easily kill alot in return.
But 30MW only kills 10 scarab bases, which is basically only a single unit, vs almost 2 full units of wraiths, which is significantly much more expensive.
But then again against non smite spam wraiths will do quite well against most opponents, falling to multi damage weapons pretty quickly when saves are not made.
torblind wrote: Wraiths would be weaker against volume of dice and smite, I guess you could adjust your scarab to wraith ratio according to your local meta.
How are they different against T8? They both wound on 5, right?
Derp you are right. I dont know what I was thinking.
But maybe wraiths are better in a TAC sense? are considerably more expensive though.
I guess, to the extent that it's even worth it going down a TAC route with necrons these days.
Also one could discuss the minimum viable number of wraiths. Perhaps anything short of 8-9 isn't going to make a difference.
Scarabs is easier, being cheaper and less of an offensive asset you could always make us of 3 to hold an objective or block enemy DS. Wraiths on the other hand need to justify their points by also performing in offensive operations
I've only used Wraiths once in 8th. That was a unit of 6. They died turn 2, but absorbed a lot of firepower that would have reduced several units to ashes.
So my take is that if you want a unit that pressures the opponents to deal with it, then you take a large unit of Wraiths.
The problem I can see with them is their damage output. They can't really deal with anything other than small or medium units of average infantry.
However from a pure objective grabbing perspective and tying up vehicles they are probably great. Perhaps a couple of units of Wraiths and a unit of Scarabs is a good medium ground.
I just feel that the Wraiths are yet again one of those Necron units that needs a small boost. Perhaps +1 attack, reworked whip coils and change beamers to assault.
Wraiths will most likely not be getting a +1 to attack, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Whip Coils getting reworked (probably something like enemies they're engaged with can't fall back or something. Even better would be charging units don't get to attack first, but that'd be doubtful).
But is bigger better, for Wraiths? As in, let's say you've got 12. What would be the best way to split them up? (and why?)
Two units of 6?
Three units of 4?
Four units of 3?
Ideally I think I'd want 4+ in a unit, but I don't know.
I'm leaning towards a single medium strength Wraith unit backed up by a couple of medium sized Scarab units, but maybe two smaller Wraith units could work better (Wraiths acting as Overwatch soaking anvils for the Scarab hammers).
Diverting from the Canoptek topic for a bit, got a mathhammer question:
How many Deathmarks would it theoretically take to down Guilliman in one round of shooting?
Note, having 2 units of 5 or one of ten also heavily influences how to best deploy them, 10 praetorians being a big threat on one flank that your enemy will have to deal with (especially in a 1500 pt battle)
I'm not sure you need two destroyer lords tbh. I guess one could hang back with the 2 destroyer squads while the other supports the praetorians (I would put then in one unit though). If you drop one Dlord or find 26 points somewhere, you could replace one with a CCB for some nice mobile MWBD. Or push everything in one detachment and spend those 150 points on a Sentry pylon to deal with any fliers, or to increase you wraith or Scarabs, or give some wraiths trans-beamers for some MWs.
Would be a fun list. Maybe some TB would fit the theme as well + will give you quite a few tesla (or gauss) shots. I might have given you too many options , but I have always got 10+ different lists I want to try out at some point but I sadly don't get around to it...
Nagerash wrote: I'm not sure you need two destroyer lords tbh. I guess one could hang back with the 2 destroyer squads while the other supports the praetorians (I would put then in one unit though).
I don't need both, I just thought it would be fun to have 2 of them. As you say, it allows one to advance while the other hangs back to buff the Destroyers.
Nagerash wrote: If you drop one Dlord or find 26 points somewhere, you could replace one with a CCB for some nice mobile MWBD.
What would he give MWBD to though?
Nagerash wrote: Or push everything in one detachment and spend those 150 points on a Sentry pylon to deal with any fliers, or to increase you wraith or Scarabs, or give some wraiths trans-beamers for some MWs.
Well, I don't have a Sentry Pylon, so that's right out.
I have 2 more Wraiths and 1 more scarab base (though I could use proxies).
Are trans-beamers any good? I haven't tried them at all yet.
Would be a fun list. Maybe some TB would fit the theme as well + will give you quite a few tesla (or gauss) shots.
Unfortunately, I only own 3 Tomb Blades. I could use them but it doesn't really seem with it with the current RP rules.
Nagerash wrote: I might have given you too many options , but I have always got 10+ different lists I want to try out at some point but I sadly don't get around to it...
Oh, I know that one. Believe me. I'm always making lists that I never get around to trying.
I appreciate the suggestions, though I fear this list is rather limited by the number of models I own.
I still laugh imagining Wraiths and putting their models on top of or around transports and then take them off the table and put them next to the squad that is being transported as you have the melee with the transported unit inside. *chuckle*
Hi all, brand new to the 40k scene but have been reading a lot of tactics and ideas on this thread as it seems to be the best place online for Necron info. My reason for posting was that I've become a classic butterfly collector, have amassed a small army of Necron and now I'm looking at making the best 1'500 list I can. Have only played one game of 1'000 points so I'm not looking for anything that's going to play in a tournament style, but a well rounded list to go and test out the local game clubs would be ideal.
Spoiler:
My army list that I have to build from
Overlord w/ SoL
Cryptek w/ SoL
Destroyer Lord w/ WS
C'tan Deceiver
C'tan Nightbringer
20 Immortals w/ Tesla
12 Warriors
3 Scarabs
3 Wraiths - 1 w/ beamer & 2 w/ caster
Triarch Stalker w/ twin heavy gauss
4 Destroyers
1 Heavy Destroyer
Night/Doomscythe (magnetised so I can pick)
10x Lychguard (weapons magnetised)
I do have the ability to take the guns off of the wraiths, but on the whole I'd rather build the list around what is there as "you play what you see" is the general rule in clubs here I gather.
Any ideas and suggestions on how to play it tactically are most welcome. I imagine there will be a lot of space marines out there as it seems to be what the majority of people collect...
Then you can go either lych w/ scythes, or destroyers w/H.D and D/lord.
Lych if you want CC besidesthe nightbringer
Destroyers for shooty.
Either way its a well rounded nice list if im honest.
I took the destroyer & HD with lord in my 1k battle and they ripped apart the space marines so I am tempted to stick with them. Be interesting to see how lych would do if I could get them up the field quickly enough though. In my 1k battle I pretty much stayed purely in shooting range & backed off when they moved up as I don't see the power off CC compared to the firepower the troops choices can put down. Isthis a good idea or do you tend to March into the fight?
I did have a good Cron vs Cron game on sat. Kill points ended up 10 pts to 0 in my favour
Spoiler:
I played
storm Lord
DDA Tesseract ark
Monolith
5 arcanatrites
Cannoptic sentinel
He had ( if I remember right)
2x6 wraiths
Over Lord
20x Warriors
Stalker (heavy gauss)
Cryptek
2x3 scarabs
2x2 spyder
5x lychguard (sword+board)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also did 6 matches of Lord of wars
I took on his warhound against a selection of my LOWs
I won 5/6 games pylon is deadly, obelisk and vault are meh
Quick question: I've seen that you're saying Lychguard are bad because of slowness - wouldn't a Night Scythe fix that? Bomb a unit of Lychguard and Overlord up to a weak point in the line and chop to death with warscythes?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Quick question: I've seen that you're saying Lychguard are bad because of slowness - wouldn't a Night Scythe fix that? Bomb a unit of Lychguard and Overlord up to a weak point in the line and chop to death with warscythes?
Sure, but bring 2 or 3 nightscythes, so that at least one survies a turn of enemy shooting, or else your unit of lychguard is lost too
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Bomb a unit of Lychguard and Overlord up to a weak point in the line and chop to death with warscythes?
1- that's going to require two Night Scythes, minimum (one for the Lychguard, one for the Overlord), but preferably three Night Scythes (in case one gets blown up).
2- if you're lucky that's a turn two charge, sure, but there's no guarantee your Night Scythe will still be there once your turn rolls around again (they're not the sturdiest of vehicles).
3- even if your Night Scythes survive to let you disgorge the guys, if the intended target of your Warscythes decide to up and move away between the time you placed the Night Scythe and the time your Lychguard can hit the table, they're going to be stuck there for a full turn with nothing they'll be able to do (they can't move after "disembarking" because Night Scythes lack the TRANSPORT keyword, so if they managed to get far enough away in their own movement phase, welp).
So, in my opinion, no, not the most viable of plans.
So can anyone suggest a good cryptek and HQ to ho with 2*20 warriors for a small points game? I remember vaguely that it was discussed a couple of months ago and there were two named characters suggested. (I want to say Orikan and Anrakyr)
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Bomb a unit of Lychguard and Overlord up to a weak point in the line and chop to death with warscythes?
1- that's going to require two Night Scythes, minimum (one for the Lychguard, one for the Overlord), but preferably three Night Scythes (in case one gets blown up).
2- if you're lucky that's a turn two charge, sure, but there's no guarantee your Night Scythe will still be there once your turn rolls around again (they're not the sturdiest of vehicles).
3- even if your Night Scythes survive to let you disgorge the guys, if the intended target of your Warscythes decide to up and move away between the time you placed the Night Scythe and the time your Lychguard can hit the table, they're going to be stuck there for a full turn with nothing they'll be able to do (they can't move after "disembarking" because Night Scythes lack the TRANSPORT keyword, so if they managed to get far enough away in their own movement phase, welp).
So, in my opinion, no, not the most viable of plans.
It is also really expensive to field. Would be better using Zahndrekh + Obyron for better reliability if your going to be spending 600pts+ to Deepstrike the Lychguard.
Well, if you're using Zahn+Oby to "deep strike" some Lychguard, you're probably also going to need the Deceiver, so yeah, it would ALSO cost around 600 points to accomplish the same thing (albeit Deceiver delivery is a bit more reliable).
...
Hence the reason people don't usually use Lychguard (there's no "good" way to get them into combat.)
Godeskian wrote: So can anyone suggest a good cryptek and HQ to ho with 2*20 warriors for a small points game? I remember vaguely that it was discussed a couple of months ago and there were two named characters suggested. (I want to say Orikan and Anrakyr)
Any will do, all have different uses but overall all are effective, just depends on how much points you want to sink into them.
jebully wrote: I took the destroyer & HD with lord in my 1k battle and they ripped apart the space marines so I am tempted to stick with them. Be interesting to see how lych would do if I could get them up the field quickly enough though. In my 1k battle I pretty much stayed purely in shooting range & backed off when they moved up as I don't see the power off CC compared to the firepower the troops choices can put down. Isthis a good idea or do you tend to March into the fight?
One problem with CC for Necrons is that you get hit on your turn, but no RP in your opponents. It's also possible for your opponent to deny you placing reanimated models by surrounding your unit. So you really have to pick what you charge.
Necrons CC units (besides Scarabs) are also very expensive.
Any will do, all have different uses but overall all are effective, just depends on how much points you want to sink into them.
Haven't we math hammered out that we need to take as little HQ's as possible to not waste points? (Like getting more units is superior to having a Cryptek math wise everytime)
Pyrothem wrote: Haven't we math hammered out that we need to take as little HQ's as possible to not waste points? (Like getting more units is superior to having a Cryptek math wise everytime)
You are correct, but you're normally going to need at least one HQ for your army, so there can be some things to consider there.
For 2x20 Warriors, I'd probably just go for a generic Cryptek.
...
But in reality, I don't think I'd take that many Warriors anymore (they just don't pull their weight. Yeah, they'll be harder to kill, but if you actually want to kill things there are better options available).
I also wanted to point out that, while buying more Warriors or Immortals is more efficient than buying the Cryptek, the Cryptek is in a mandatory slot in the first place. Is that to be considered in this discussion?
Blue Balled. 
).
, but I have always got 10+ different lists I want to try out at some point but I sadly don't get around to it...
