Yeah I think thats often overlooked. HQ's are necessary so are valid in discussions. However, it should probably be noted if these are additional HQ's being taken to support X unit or if they are the generic ones required for the slots.
In any case, the named crypteks all are good, all have their uses. I think orikan and szerath are the best for troop lists, each bringing different things. If supporting warriors/immortals, szerath hands down.
Orikan has a place with expensive CC units, like lychguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If we get the GWM/ some other option close range teleports that doesn't need the janky combos we now do to get off (say a relic that allows a HQ to GWM up a squad) would it make Lych/FO bombs appealing?
Also, if we manage to get an invuln save relic, would a CCB/wraith star become much more appealing? I feel the CCB is currently too fragile to be really viable, but if it was a 2+/4++, with Toholk's D3 to living metal AND quantam shielding, it would be much better as a mobile treat.
If only our fast mobile units could actually benefit from his Command Wave.
God damn it how frustrating and un-synergistic is our army.
We have a fast HQ that has a powerful buff that.... doesn't work with the fast powerful units that would benefit greatly with it.
Imagine praets/wraiths with MWBD. Hell even scarabs would be beasts....
Maybe we need a new keyword, so our HQ's just dont buff the worst units in our codex. It makes fluffy sense that an overlord can control the canoptek stuff, after all they are just robots. He could download a more powerful operating system to them or something.
We have loads of different HQ's that basically do the same thing but with slightly different flavours, but are hamstrung by incredibly awkward transport and very low mobility (I know we are a slow "durable" army, but we are also the most technologically advanced race, if I was slow, but that crazy smart I would make super faste hihg sped transport to get me to where I needa go).
In this case I basically am starting over with my necrons, and since my list was originally based around three blocks of warriors in fifth edition, it seemed like a good place to start.
Szeras eh? I'll look at proxieing him in my first game and then acquiring him if it all works. Any further advice will be appreciated
Godeskian wrote: In this case I basically am starting over with my necrons, and since my list was originally based around three blocks of warriors in fifth edition, it seemed like a good place to start.
Szeras eh? I'll look at proxieing him in my first game and then acquiring him if it all works. Any further advice will be appreciated
Remember though, Szeras doesn't have a dynasty, so he can only help units without a dynasty, while Orikan the Diviner does have a dynasty and he gives 5+ invul for both shooting and melee for units within 6", which is twice the distance compared to normal crypteks.
Also hes a beast in melee IF the stars are right haha
They are both the same points cost though.
I have recently used Orikan alot and his 5+ invul for both range and melee is very valuable imo, since warriors have 4+ save and is easly negated with alot of shooting.
20man warriors blocks + orikan is a great way to bait enemy shooting , recently did a match against a IG player with a kinda cheesey list, and I did draw him. My two 20man warrior blobs + orikan did take all enemy firepower for 3 turns haha
I played my first 8th game yesterday and had an absolutely epic game against Tyranids.
It ended at the bottom of turn 7, with me rolling exactly 3dmg as minimum needed on the last shot of the game (a doomsday ark shell) against his very last model (a W3/3++ Zoanthrope), killing it, tabling him, otherwise I would have lost 6 to 8 on points.
Swarmlord w/3 guards
Genestealers: 2x20 and 2x18, 76 total
2x broodlords
1x tunneling monster delivering 1 unit of GS 4x zoanthrope
In short: His swarmlord catapulted 20 GS into my deployment each turn (due to giving additional move and advance), and I suffered 4-5 smites each turn.
He went first, so I achieved absolutely 0 board control. Vanguard deployment.
My MWBD tesla immortals were absolutely brutal against his 5+ save GS units, as long as I could keep them out of combat, one full unit of immortals easily incapacitating 20 GS.
Anrakyr was great with +1A to lychguard and to warriors when they received the heat when the scahff was gone. Orikan giving 5++ to CC was useful against the GS hits that scored -4AP.
DDAs without Stalker varied between absolutely awesome and totally useless. The first turn one model wounding 3 times inflicted 12W against the swarmlord, and the other model did nothing. Folllowing turns they did little or nothing until it was killed turn 4 or 5, having by then catapulted all the GS units it needed. They were great in that they could Fly out of combat and still shoot (albeit reduced) when I was overrun by GS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Except for the spyder, all my units synergized very nicely.
He didn't have any shooting so DDAs were never really hurt to enable his healing
His points would have been better spent elsewhere.
Lychguard with warscythes were great to dispel his GS when they had FNP, needing to roll 5+ twice for each wound due to 2dmg, thus effectvely cancelling out the advantage of his FNP.
Godeskian wrote: In this case I basically am starting over with my necrons, and since my list was originally based around three blocks of warriors in fifth edition, it seemed like a good place to start.
Szeras eh? I'll look at proxieing him in my first game and then acquiring him if it all works. Any further advice will be appreciated
Remember though, Szeras doesn't have a dynasty, so he can only help units without a dynasty, while Orikan the Diviner does have a dynasty and he gives 5+ invul for both shooting and melee for units within 6", which is twice the distance compared to normal crypteks.
Also hes a beast in melee IF the stars are right haha
They are both the same points cost though.
I have recently used Orikan alot and his 5+ invul for both range and melee is very valuable imo, since warriors have 4+ save and is easly negated with alot of shooting.
20man warriors blocks + orikan is a great way to bait enemy shooting , recently did a match against a IG player with a kinda cheesey list, and I did draw him. My two 20man warrior blobs + orikan did take all enemy firepower for 3 turns haha
Szerath can help anyone, as his buffs are not dynasty dependent. He gives the +1 to RP to all necron units within 3", and his other ability affects warriors and immortals only, non dynasty dependant. So he is very useful for warriors and immortals as his buff is far and ahead better than a 5++.
Remember a 5++ only comes into effect against ap-2+ weapons. What in their army is shooting high volume ap-2/ap-3 at warriors. I have never found the 5++ to be used, as my opponents usually point those weapons at the bigger, scarier stuff that the extra AP is more effective on. If you are facing a whole armies worth of firepower from a shooty army that has massed ap-2/ap-3 firepower than yes it is preferable to have, but then again the only time someone should be shooting those weapons at warriors is when there isnt much else for those weapons to realistically fire at. This means you are in dire straights and youve gone wrong somewhere else.
The 5++ in melee is much more beneficial, hence why orikan is better paired to CC sluggers. CC is where your likely to see alot more ap-2/3/4 and D3-6 damage, so it helps protecting against these threats. It also keeps the much more expensive flayed ones or lychguard/praets alive for longer.
Refering to the quote above, if you want a 5++ and rp buff take a normal cryptek and use the points elsewhere instead of taking orikan to buff warriors. Its a waste of points. You pay a premium for a random thing (that again only benefits CC realistically, his super sayain mode) and a 5++ in CC that you dont benefit from, so put him where he is meant to go and give the shooty ones a cheap cryptek.
torblind wrote:I played my first 8th game yesterday and had an absolutely epic game against Tyranids.
It ended at the bottom of turn 7, with me rolling exactly 3dmg as minimum needed on the last shot of the game (a doomsday ark shell) against his very last model (a W3/3++ Zoanthrope), killing it, tabling him, otherwise I would have lost 6 to 8 on points.
Swarmlord w/3 guards
Genestealers: 2x20 and 2x18, 76 total
2x broodlords
1x tunneling monster delivering 1 unit of GS 4x zoanthrope
In short: His swarmlord catapulted 20 GS into my deployment each turn (due to giving additional move and advance), and I suffered 4-5 smites each turn.
He went first, so I achieved absolutely 0 board control. Vanguard deployment.
My MWBD tesla immortals were absolutely brutal against his 5+ save GS units, as long as I could keep them out of combat, one full unit of immortals easily incapacitating 20 GS.
Anrakyr was great with +1A to lychguard and to warriors when they received the heat when the scahff was gone. Orikan giving 5++ to CC was useful against the GS hits that scored -4AP.
DDAs without Stalker varied between absolutely awesome and totally useless. The first turn one model wounding 3 times inflicted 12W against the swarmlord, and the other model did nothing. Folllowing turns they did little or nothing until it was killed turn 4 or 5, having by then catapulted all the GS units it needed. They were great in that they could Fly out of combat and still shoot (albeit reduced) when I was overrun by GS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Except for the spyder, all my units synergized very nicely.
He didn't have any shooting so DDAs were never really hurt to enable his healing
His points would have been better spent elsewhere.
Lychguard with warscythes were great to dispel his GS when they had FNP, needing to roll 5+ twice for each wound due to 2dmg, thus effectvely cancelling out the advantage of his FNP.
Glad to hear Tor! good list to take against them, and his list is nasty! happy to hear it was a bloodbath. Do you feel TA's would be better served in the list? since building mine and using it much more the D6 shots is much more noticable, you frequently get 4 shots, and only get pissy when you get 1-2, not with the DDA where you WANT the 3 shots but usually only get 1-2.
How did your warriors compare vs your immortals?
Do you feel FO would have been useful in a list like this?
Glad to hear Tor! good list to take against them, and his list is nasty! happy to hear it was a bloodbath. Do you feel TA's would be better served in the list? since building mine and using it much more the D6 shots is much more noticable, you frequently get 4 shots, and only get pissy when you get 1-2, not with the DDA where you WANT the 3 shots but usually only get 1-2.
How did your warriors compare vs your immortals?
Do you feel FO would have been useful in a list like this?
We were both limping along those last few turns, Anrakyr and Orikan long gone. I did have both immortal squads at around 70%-80% strength as RP kept dripping back models, the barge and both DDarks though.
I'm spoiling this reply down, failed miserably at keeping it short and concise
On warriors and immortals:
Spoiler:
The immortals and warriors worked nicely together in a way, warriors moved up, rapid fired and charged and were sacrificed as 2nd rank chaff when the scarabs were gone, allowing the immortals one more round of elbow space. Near 40 GF shots is always a potent threat against gene stealers. Anrakyr giving them +1A in CC was also great (conga-lined back). Their increased body count meant they took smites good too.
My first problem was going second this time, I didn't get to move up and fan out, so my immortals were caught in CC with the front line scarabs as the first GS came darting in. Also I kept the scarab bases too far apart, allowing them to be encircled so I couldn't move out of CC and light up that first unit of GS, forcing me to send in LG to clear them up, which was unfortunate.
On Flayed Ones:
Spoiler:
FOs would have been nice to be able to drop on an Objective or to threaten another flank, if I had drawn a secure and hold across the board, it could have scored me 2VP which would have been decisive in this match. Problem is, for anything more than 5 models FO I don't know where to cut the points though. The Spyder, sure, but then, where?
If he had flung 30 gaunts in my face (nobody knew each others lists), I would certainly have missed having 20 FO's around for horde control, but as it were, 10 lychguard with T5/3+, held up much better against 20 GS than 20 FO with T4/4+ would have (dice-hammer says 5-6 LG models lost vs 18 FO models lost, all dead after moral). And with the insane speed of the GS, I was very unlikely to get off a charge first, so I was forced to sit and take it. Also the dmg 2 warscythe did help cancel out the FNP he gave his GS, and still performing well enough to clean out the GS numbers that remained. Also the LG were a threat to his monsters. I eventually moved up 4 LG to charge his injured swarmlord, though rolled miserably and left him with 2 wounds, they then died to smite. FO couldn't have threatened him in the same way.
Now tactically and physically 20 FO could have taken the spot of the warriors in my lineup, (not considering battle forging for now, and still cutting costs elsewhere). As it were, I'm not sure how many GS models the warriors actually shot dead, perhaps only 6-7 over all, and another 2-3 in CC. When their right flank was overrun there were 10 remaining GS models coming in.
If I had had the FO stand there holding the flank in their place, I could have charged them in, as this match went, though likely he would have spotted the danger and taken steps to charge them first (with the swarmlord ability). But had I come in, that would certainly have eradicated that GS unit before themselves dying next turn to smite and charges. In general, FO as troops would be awesome for army flexibility. There is not much "elite" to them fluffwise anyway.
This match could have played out differently though, the warriors could have had more turns shooting, tipping the scale in their favor, if he had focused his strengths elsewhere, if nothing else they could have given me a couple of models dead to overwatch that the FO could not have given me, before dying.
Also tactically the warriors will always be in position to take smites, meaning cheap is important.
I don't think he'll allow me the luxury of having tesla immortals alive until the end next time, perhaps the 3xElite detachment would be better, eg. FOs, Lychguard and a perhaps Stalker could be something to consider. And scarabs - more scarabs.
Though we'll probably go down to 1500 pts next time, played two full nights this time, 3-4 hours each, to complete this beast of a match.
On TA vs DDA:
Spoiler:
He didnt have any long range shooting, and no monsters moved up against my arks, so the invul save would not come into play.
Long range the TA looks better. S8 does everything the S10 did this match, there was not much T5 around. The swarmlord had 5++ invul, so -3 and -5 make no difference. D6 hits would be nice.
20 S4 AP-1 shots of the DDA would be better than D6 autohits to clear out critters that got too close. Not sure if 2 tesla cannons make up for that. Perhaps they do. Its not too different when I think about it.
The shape of the DDA means it can see more targets, I think. I don't own any TA unfortunately.
The TA certainly has more versatile shooting though. The flayer arrays of the DDA weren't useless against bigger monsters, they did chip of a wound here and there when they got closer, but the TA probably would be better with tesla/gc cannon plus the main weapon. Though the tesla immortals were the main GS cleaners, the DDAs were a much appreceiated backup (that often was drawn upon)
Being cheaper, more wounds (one of them took 10W damage), not needing invul and having 20 S4 -1 shots to clear invaders, albeit stuck in one place, I probably would have chosen the DDA again for this match. I havent played with the TA at all, so would need to learn experience it before I could give a better answer. Game mechanic and match flow comes into play too. Movability and speed have real value this edition, so its not a straight up call. If I had gone first, I could have moved up, also with the TAs without sacrificing too much shooting power.
Godeskian wrote: In this case I basically am starting over with my necrons, and since my list was originally based around three blocks of warriors in fifth edition, it seemed like a good place to start.
Szeras eh? I'll look at proxieing him in my first game and then acquiring him if it all works. Any further advice will be appreciated
Remember though, Szeras doesn't have a dynasty, so he can only help units without a dynasty, while Orikan the Diviner does have a dynasty and he gives 5+ invul for both shooting and melee for units within 6", which is twice the distance compared to normal crypteks.
Also hes a beast in melee IF the stars are right haha
They are both the same points cost though.
I have recently used Orikan alot and his 5+ invul for both range and melee is very valuable imo, since warriors have 4+ save and is easly negated with alot of shooting.
20man warriors blocks + orikan is a great way to bait enemy shooting , recently did a match against a IG player with a kinda cheesey list, and I did draw him. My two 20man warrior blobs + orikan did take all enemy firepower for 3 turns haha
Szerath can help anyone, as his buffs are not dynasty dependent. He gives the +1 to RP to all necron units within 3", and his other ability affects warriors and immortals only, non dynasty dependant. So he is very useful for warriors and immortals as his buff is far and ahead better than a 5++.
Remember a 5++ only comes into effect against ap-2+ weapons. What in their army is shooting high volume ap-2/ap-3 at warriors. I have never found the 5++ to be used, as my opponents usually point those weapons at the bigger, scarier stuff that the extra AP is more effective on.
To be fair, my 1k army is 40 warriors, 8 immortals, 5 deathmarks and the characters. Whatever high AP firepower my enemy has will almost inevitably hit my warriors or immortals, and I know at least one Eldar player that brings a metric crapton of high ap damage and one Primaris player who fields nothing but plasma.
Refering to the quote above, if you want a 5++ and rp buff take a normal cryptek and use the points elsewhere instead of taking orikan to buff warriors. Its a waste of points. You pay a premium for a random thing (that again only benefits CC realistically, his super sayain mode) and a 5++ in CC that you dont benefit from, so put him where he is meant to go and give the shooty ones a cheap cryptek.
Thanks for the detailed breakdown on which HQ suit where. I haven't really played my necrons in 8th yet but the one game I did have ended in turn one when the aforementioned Eldar player nuked two thirds of my army in one round of shooting. Don't think I rolled a single armour save for all the high ap shooting. So I kind of went and played a different army for a bit
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know, it just occurred to me, Necrons lost their 7th edition WBB roll so that Death Guard could receive it
Szerath can help anyone, as his buffs are not dynasty dependent. He gives the +1 to RP to all necron units within 3", and his other ability affects warriors and immortals only, non dynasty dependant. So he is very useful for warriors and immortals as his buff is far and ahead better than a 5++.
Remember a 5++ only comes into effect against ap-2+ weapons. What in their army is shooting high volume ap-2/ap-3 at warriors. I have never found the 5++ to be used, as my opponents usually point those weapons at the bigger, scarier stuff that the extra AP is more effective on. If you are facing a whole armies worth of firepower from a shooty army that has massed ap-2/ap-3 firepower than yes it is preferable to have, but then again the only time someone should be shooting those weapons at warriors is when there isnt much else for those weapons to realistically fire at. This means you are in dire straights and youve gone wrong somewhere else.
The 5++ in melee is much more beneficial, hence why orikan is better paired to CC sluggers. CC is where your likely to see alot more ap-2/3/4 and D3-6 damage, so it helps protecting against these threats. It also keeps the much more expensive flayed ones or lychguard/praets alive for longer.
Refering to the quote above, if you want a 5++ and rp buff take a normal cryptek and use the points elsewhere instead of taking orikan to buff warriors. Its a waste of points. You pay a premium for a random thing (that again only benefits CC realistically, his super sayain mode) and a 5++ in CC that you dont benefit from, so put him where he is meant to go and give the shooty ones a cheap cryptek.
Well considering my opponents, we play highly competative and they most certainly wont leave a single warrior left on the field, so yes, basilisk, knights etc, will fire at that unit, I would too, its ignorant to leave a couple left so he can reanimate them. Imo the 5++ is more valuable, but sure it all comes down to w/e you prefer.
In my experience, the 5++ melee edition is usefull, as they usually get in melee aswell, so that 5++ and his stars are right are actually usefull contrary to the above comment. And a sidenote, I'd rather have me fail the 5++ save than the opponent succeding with a rediculous amount to wound rolls (granted +1T from Szeras).
And comparing Orikan against Szeras, I guess it comes down to cookies and crumbles? You have to be really close to Szeras agumentation, and getting that +1 str is kinda.. yea. And sure, you can reroll it and roll again next turn.
Atleast Orikans 5++ is 6" and is Sautekh infantry, so destroyers benefit from it aswell plus more coverage.
A player who knows your army rule, will want to make sure you dont get that much use of it, preferably zero use.
Well considering my opponents, we play highly competative and they most certainly wont leave a single warrior left on the field, so yes, basilisk, knights etc, will fire at that unit, I would too, its ignorant to leave a couple left so he can reanimate them. Imo the 5++ is more valuable, but sure it all comes down to w/e you prefer.
In my experience, the 5++ melee edition is usefull, as they usually get in melee aswell, so that 5++ and his stars are right are actually usefull contrary to the above comment. And a sidenote, I'd rather have me fail the 5++ save than the opponent succeding with a rediculous amount to wound rolls (granted +1T from Szeras).
And comparing Orikan against Szeras, I guess it comes down to cookies and crumbles? You have to be really close to Szeras agumentation, and getting that +1 str is kinda.. yea. And sure, you can reroll it and roll again next turn.
Atleast Orikans 5++ is 6" and is Sautekh infantry, so destroyers benefit from it aswell plus more coverage.
A player who knows your army rule, will want to make sure you dont get that much use of it, preferably zero use.
Yeah we are seeing that the most successful lists are not using RP as any part of their strategy and forgoing large troops with Crypteks for things like mass wraiths.
I run an overlord, cryptek, warriors, immortals, scarabs, deathmarks, destroyers, and a monolith and lack anti tank in my army. I can win games but that's by ignoring land raider crusaders which eat up my troops. I rely on my monolith for anti tank but it's subpar in my opinion. What's good anti tank for necrons? Heavy destroyers or what? Thanks.
I think szeras' upgrades are a bit worse than a 5++, his main draw for me is his lance weapon allowing me to more or less staple a heavy gauss cannon to my hq choice for 39 points.
I like him with immortals that are mostly going to try and get stuck in cover and shoot all game, and with a 2+ save they're even less in need of the 5++. Warriors on the other hand are much more likely to need the 5++ and the meatier beat stick that orikan provides because i take them in blobs too big to grab easy cover and they often break cover to get in rapid fire / assault range anyway.
On a somewhat related note to mandatory hqs, it's kind of odd that the specialist detachments for heavies or fast attacks all only require 1 hq to 6 specialist units, while if we want to take 4+ troops or benefit from the extra cp taking a bunch of troops is meant to provide us we have to take 2 hqs. There's already a separate hq focused detachment too, but the only troop focused one has to have more hqs than the rest even though troops are by and large weaker than other slots in armies.
BillyN831 wrote: I run an overlord, cryptek, warriors, immortals, scarabs, deathmarks, destroyers, and a monolith and lack anti tank in my army. I can win games but that's by ignoring land raider crusaders which eat up my troops. I rely on my monolith for anti tank but it's subpar in my opinion. What's good anti tank for necrons? Heavy destroyers or what? Thanks.
Heavy Destroyers, Triarch Stalker w/ Heat Ray or Twin Heavy Gauss, Doomsday Ark, Tesseract Ark, Tomb Sentinel, Lychguard w/ Warscythes, Dook Scythe, Sentry Pylon and Gauss Pylon.
Frontline is having Jessica on as a guest to run her Necron List she got 51's in Nova on friday against new Death Guard.
With all the smights I don't have any faith in wraith heavy list.
Pyrothem wrote: Frontline is having Jessica on as a guest to run her Necron List she got 51's in Nova on friday against new Death Guard.
With all the smights I don't have any faith in wraith heavy list.
That is one I'll try to tune in for.
I encourage everyone else on this board to do so as well, and try to ask some questions.
Maybe then we can find out what exactly it is that they think makes Crons so "great" this edition, despite their abysmal performances in the competitive scene.
Szerath can help anyone, as his buffs are not dynasty dependent. He gives the +1 to RP to all necron units within 3", and his other ability affects warriors and immortals only, non dynasty dependant. So he is very useful for warriors and immortals as his buff is far and ahead better than a 5++.
Remember a 5++ only comes into effect against ap-2+ weapons. What in their army is shooting high volume ap-2/ap-3 at warriors. I have never found the 5++ to be used, as my opponents usually point those weapons at the bigger, scarier stuff that the extra AP is more effective on. If you are facing a whole armies worth of firepower from a shooty army that has massed ap-2/ap-3 firepower than yes it is preferable to have, but then again the only time someone should be shooting those weapons at warriors is when there isnt much else for those weapons to realistically fire at. This means you are in dire straights and youve gone wrong somewhere else.
The 5++ in melee is much more beneficial, hence why orikan is better paired to CC sluggers. CC is where your likely to see alot more ap-2/3/4 and D3-6 damage, so it helps protecting against these threats. It also keeps the much more expensive flayed ones or lychguard/praets alive for longer.
Refering to the quote above, if you want a 5++ and rp buff take a normal cryptek and use the points elsewhere instead of taking orikan to buff warriors. Its a waste of points. You pay a premium for a random thing (that again only benefits CC realistically, his super sayain mode) and a 5++ in CC that you dont benefit from, so put him where he is meant to go and give the shooty ones a cheap cryptek.
Well considering my opponents, we play highly competative and they most certainly wont leave a single warrior left on the field, so yes, basilisk, knights etc, will fire at that unit, I would too, its ignorant to leave a couple left so he can reanimate them. Imo the 5++ is more valuable, but sure it all comes down to w/e you prefer.
In my experience, the 5++ melee edition is usefull, as they usually get in melee aswell, so that 5++ and his stars are right are actually usefull contrary to the above comment. And a sidenote, I'd rather have me fail the 5++ save than the opponent succeding with a rediculous amount to wound rolls (granted +1T from Szeras).
And comparing Orikan against Szeras, I guess it comes down to cookies and crumbles? You have to be really close to Szeras agumentation, and getting that +1 str is kinda.. yea. And sure, you can reroll it and roll again next turn.
Atleast Orikans 5++ is 6" and is Sautekh infantry, so destroyers benefit from it aswell plus more coverage.
A player who knows your army rule, will want to make sure you dont get that much use of it, preferably zero use.
I never said orikan and his buffs weren't useful, infact they are very good, just its a waste of points giving it to warriors when a cryptek does the exact same job for a lot cheaper. Not that bringing warriors is competitive anyway, but if you are, you bring a cryptek as he gives similar buffs as orikan, yet you aren't underutilising your expensive, melee oriented cryptek on a unit that wants to kite and shoot the majority of the time. Orikan should be with CC oriented troops.
I dont run warriors anymore as our army is expensive and they are a hilarious waste of points, considering the other tools we have available. I was just pointing out the differences between szerath and orikan, and why you would take either over a std cryptek.
Szerath - you want to buff warriors/immortals and you know your not against much high ap Orikan - you want your expensive dedicated melee oriented units to stay alive longer.
Pyrothem wrote: Frontline is having Jessica on as a guest to run her Necron List she got 51's in Nova on friday against new Death Guard.
With all the smights I don't have any faith in wraith heavy list.
That is one I'll try to tune in for.
I encourage everyone else on this board to do so as well, and try to ask some questions.
Maybe then we can find out what exactly it is that they think makes Crons so "great" this edition, despite their abysmal performances in the competitive scene.
This will indeed be a fun game to watch. As Skoffs said, the amount of mortal wounds Death Guard can produce will be the bane of Wraiths. Unless Jessica can keep the distance while playing objectives it will be a really tough game for her.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just looked at the Death Guard list. If Jessica can kill Mortarion (he has fly... lol) with the Pylon as soon as possible she have a good chance to win.
After that she should go after the Daemon princes (they also have fly... lol). They will want to be in CC as soon as possible. Bait them with units and fall back so that the pylon can shoot.
If the Daemon princes are not the closest targets, then the Plague marines are good targets.
Got to say I've yet to use wraiths in my games, one of the other Cron players in my club norm uses two units but I've always managed to take them down readily enough. The other player is just starting up so don't think he's got any.
I do pref immortals over warriors
May start to include more monoliths to give them their fair share of play time.
I agree it would be nice to hear what FLG is seeing with necrons that the rest of the necron community and tournament players fail to see. Well. They could just come here and say it for that matter.
I've used the Deceiver in a few games.
It's very good in 2000 point games, but I struggle fitting it into 1500 points that we usually play.
You take him mainly for the Grand illusion and the good thing is that it happens after the roll who starts, so you can be very reactive.
The Deceiver makes your deployment very flexible and I usually use the Grand Illusion in the following ways depending on what I'm facing:
1. Deploy Immortals on objectives in cover. 10 Immortals with 2+ save are a pain to remove. Buildings are the best places preventing anything but infantry and flyer from charging them. Sometimes units of 5 are also ok.
2. Deploy Scarabs to take board control preventing deep striking.
3. Deploy Immortals so that they can shoot on a unit.
4. Redeploy units in your deployment zone for a more advantageous position. Perhaps preventing some units to shoot at you units or giving you better firing lanes.
Besides the Grand illusion it also usually has Antimatter meteor and is pretty good in combat.
It mostly becomes a distraction Carnifex running with a unit of Scarabs (Wraiths might also work).
Does the 'times arrow' power have any real use, or is it just bad in comparison to AM's 83.33% chance d3 mortal wounds (making it useful against high save/invul enemies) or Seismic assaults slot machine 16.6% chance per model of mortal wounds on hordes? Granted both of these require you to position well since it's only the closest unit...
Do you at least get to choose which model is slain? If so I guess that could be ok verses low wound units with unique equipment spread out through it, or verses leadership models with 5 or less wounds since this power isn't limited to the nearest.
As above, I use him in my tournament list. I run 26 scarabs, and tonight I got a 3 in the roll, meaning his DS termies were could not DS anywhere near my Pylon or vehicles. Ate up basically 50% of the board. Also deployed him behind them, so you get a nice little star running about, 9 scarabs are actually a pain to displace, and he is pretty good for a single character.
I lost the game(club closed before we could get another round in) but I would have won convincingly next round had it been tournament length.
After fighting an army that doesn't have force weapons everywhere I must say Scarabs are much much more durable than they appear on paper. They have a huge wound pool to chew through...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Times arrow is for character sniping in armies that that matters to. As it's not a shooting attack it can target characters, and isn't restricted to the closest enemy. So for AM it's really good, killing the commissar keeping the conscripts in line. It's like a 60-70% chance with a CP reroll
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, my TA put in work tonight, the D6 shots is insanely more noticeable with its damage output. It's fleshbane flamer is also amazing, and the tesla cannons are icing on the cake. Far and away better than the DDA. Especially with Toholk d3 living metal
Question on Tesseract arks: Gravitational Flux: "when resolving a charge against a model with this ability, roll and additional d6 and discard the highest dice before determining the final result."
Does the wording of "Before determining the final result." Mean that I can see what they roll with 2 dice and then if that fails I can wait on using this ability until after they've declared a potential CP reroll of one of those dice? After which I can be all 'Yeah roll another dice and drop the highest...' in essence possibly milking them out of one of their CP's?
Ehhh, it says 'when resolving a charge'. I feel the determining the final result means when all the dice have been rolled. Its 100% meant to be roll 3d6 and discard the highest, but I'm not sure thats RAW 100%, but definetly RAI
Times arrow is for character sniping in armies that that matters to. As it's not a shooting attack it can target characters, and isn't restricted to the closest enemy. So for AM it's really good, killing the commissar keeping the conscripts in line. It's like a 60-70% chance with a CP reroll
--NOTE: I am not sure on how to Spoiler the images so if there is an issue Skoffs I will happily remove them id they are taking up space and/or an issue.--
Klowny,I wish you were part of the Necron group on Facebook. I told a bunch of other people that Times Arrow can target Characters but I was told it was cheating because even though it isn't a shooting attack they told me to follow the rules of the shooting phase and that "C'tan powers" count as shooting attacks because they are done in the shooting phase.
theres a necron page on FB? If you read the full character rule, it says characters cannot be targeted in the shooting phase ..... by weapons. The C'tan power isn't a weapon, and is not shot. Its 100% designed to be a character sniping power.
Yeah I'll invite you to it if I knew your "actual" name.
I stated that in the comments and they were having none of it. And they are Necrons players them self's (or, they just joined to see if they can counter what we have and just gave me grief so I wouldn't use the power the way it is supposed to be used).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I posted the C'tan power and the Characters rules from the book and they still went against my word. Bunch of a**holes tbh.
Planning an Infantry smasher build for a game vs a guardsman player i've lost 2/2 against now that we're out of weekly tourny and can play over 1k (Both games close but usually lost cause of objectives of the mission etc allowing him to barely eek out a win).
For a build resolving around plowing into the center of his massive infantry column and wrapping as many squads as possible with 2x 20 man flayed ones, should I use Sautekh or Maynarkh Dynasty?
Sautekh would allow me to play Stormlord for aoe lightning strike burst and reroll 1's on hits. So this might ensure I more consistently wipe those squads.
Where as Maynarkh would allow me to play Kutlakh and the idea of charging after advancing makes me feel that i'll be able to chase down and wrap additional squads every turn especially if I give those squads MWBD which adds 1" to advance and charge..
Granted either way i go i'll probably have to take at least one if not both C'tans and arm them with times arrow to try and snipe out his commissars as fast as possible since I always find those orders to be the bane of trying to fight his infantry... Granted Seismic assault might not be bad either since the quicker I can wipe the squad the quicker I can get at the comm's...
Though I'll have to make sure I have something to deal with his penitent engines and that angel he'll probably run if we're running more points...
Klowny wrote: theres a necron page on FB? If you read the full character rule, it says characters cannot be targeted in the shooting phase ..... by weapons. The C'tan power isn't a weapon, and is not shot. Its 100% designed to be a character sniping power.
It also doesn't target.
That said, I think it's still a pretty awful power. Especially since it doesn't matter if the model you're using it on has already been wounded - you still have to roll against its maximum wounds.
Your supposed to target enemies with 6 or less wounds so models like Gulliman can't be targeted anyway. It's only a situational power and those people still told me to basically Nerf it. You think people would let Necrons have a little bit of power instead of trying to Nerf us some more.
Klowny wrote: Yea, c'tan powers aren't shooting attacks, and you dont target an enemy, both mean it can pick out a character.
They are just reading the rules wrong. Dont get upset over it mate, theres people like that everywhere.
I wasn't bothered until I was called a cheater and I never once cheated in a game of 40k (that I know of). I explained that the GW manager agreed and that my opponents also agreed to the way it works. But your right, there getting the rule wrong and are too narrow minded to see Times Arrow "true" power. If it gets FaA in our favor they will be sorry they called me a cheater and rule bender
Odrankt wrote: If it gets FaA in our favor they will be sorry they called me a cheater and rule bender
I mean, they might be. But probably not. People can easily be unapologetic jerks.
100% agree, I stated why it shouldn't be considered a shooting attack e.g. basically our pysk power done in a different phase, we basically manifest it on a 2+ then choose a you it within 24". Told them that Necron Vets from Dakkadakka all agreed with what I said and they basically gave me grief as if I was the only person in the world that uses Time Arrow that way. Some people just have no morales. Especially when it comes to the internet and not seeing someones face and thought process.
Friend challenged me to a 3k mostly armor match, with proxies I can just manage this...(dont own any fliers sadly.)
3k - Note: Spearhead Detachment, super heavy Auxilery. Enemy is Imperial guard and will probably run at least 1 knight.
toholk the blinded (there so I have an HQ cause mandatory if I want the CP... Plus one model will get better healing. Sadly it wont be the GP since that will be teleporting... Though if we do initiative first before fielding anything I can probably just put it down for turn 1 instead and base my formation around it for the invuls if I get initiative, if I dont I should TP it in to make sure it gets a shot off... )
Sentry pylon 3x (heat ray, TP)
Sentry Pylon 3x (heat ray, TP)
Triarch Stalker 2x (gauss)
Doomsday Ark 2x
Tesseract Ark (Gauss)
Gauss Pylon (TP)
Lothmar wrote: Planning an Infantry smasher build for a game vs a guardsman player i've lost 2/2 against now that we're out of weekly tourny and can play over 1k (Both games close but usually lost cause of objectives of the mission etc allowing him to barely eek out a win).
For a build resolving around plowing into the center of his massive infantry column and wrapping as many squads as possible with 2x 20 man flayed ones, should I use Sautekh or Maynarkh Dynasty?
Sautekh would allow me to play Stormlord for aoe lightning strike burst and reroll 1's on hits. So this might ensure I more consistently wipe those squads.
Where as Maynarkh would allow me to play Kutlakh and the idea of charging after advancing makes me feel that i'll be able to chase down and wrap additional squads every turn especially if I give those squads MWBD which adds 1" to advance and charge..
Granted either way i go i'll probably have to take at least one if not both C'tans and arm them with times arrow to try and snipe out his commissars as fast as possible since I always find those orders to be the bane of trying to fight his infantry... Granted Seismic assault might not be bad either since the quicker I can wipe the squad the quicker I can get at the comm's...
Though I'll have to make sure I have something to deal with his penitent engines and that angel he'll probably run if we're running more points...
Looking for 2k suggestions.
Definitely take the Deceiver against those hordes and blast them with Seismic Assault. Also, put in 2x 10 Tesla Immortals for GI. With those 3 units you should be removing large chunks of guardsmen each shooting phase. I'd probably throw in some Deathmarks as a counter DS unit if they try to bring in Tempestus behind your lines.
Does he field mostly infantry or does he also have artillery.
When playing against Guard, the things behind the screen, such as artillery, should be priority 1. The big problem here is their board presence and their indirect fire.
When it comes to low armor infantry tesla is obviously the king. Immortals in cover aren't afraid of artillery. Tomb blades could also be great and so would A barges. A Barges wounds them on twos.
There was a Necron army at ETC that spammed A barges and Night scythes. Horde armies probably didn't like that one.
Lothmar wrote: Friend challenged me to a 3k mostly armor match, with proxies I can just manage this...(dont own any fliers sadly.)
3k - Note: Spearhead Detachment, super heavy Auxilery. Enemy is Imperial guard and will probably run at least 1 knight.
toholk the blinded (there so I have an HQ cause mandatory if I want the CP... Plus one model will get better healing. Sadly it wont be the GP since that will be teleporting... Though if we do initiative first before fielding anything I can probably just put it down for turn 1 instead and base my formation around it for the invuls if I get initiative, if I dont I should TP it in to make sure it gets a shot off... )
Sentry pylon 3x (heat ray, TP)
Sentry Pylon 3x (heat ray, TP)
Triarch Stalker 2x (gauss)
Doomsday Ark 2x
Tesseract Ark (Gauss)
Gauss Pylon (TP)
Spyder 2x (fab claw)
Scarabs - 4x
- 2996
Any suggestions or build re-configurations?
I'd bring more TA over DDA, and immortals are good but maybe bring some anni barges if you want to keep it mech but need horde control? You have fly so you're not too scared of his infantry. Just be very careful of autocannons and his HWT if he brings them, flat 2 damage bypasses QS with ease.
I'd bring as many Scarabs as you can shoehorn in too, good screens and tie up conscripts like a boss.
Im fairly new to 40k. Getting ready to make an FW order. I already have the big gauss pylon and one tomb sentinel. Going to pick up a couple tesseract arks and was wondering about your general opinions on a couple things.
1. Do i need a second tomb sentinel?
2. Are tomb stalkers worth picking up?
3. Are the sentry pylons worth getting?
After the tesseract arks i can basically afford twp more units. Want input on which of the above three will serve me best.
I have a few sentry pylons, they are good in mech lists, as they offer very good firepower. But TBHid just get a 3rd TA, unless you want some of the other ones. If you do end up getting a pylon, get the gauss one and get a heat ray from a stalker, and magnetise both weapon options. The death ray is useless.
I cant remember the names but the centipede with the big mouth gun is the one you want, the other doesn't offer as much.
If you want variety, get the pylon, if you want to be competitive, consider a 3rd TA. 3 are more than enough heavy support in a game, then you can pad out the rest of the list with whatever you want.
It would do everyone to bear in mind that we're probably going to experience a shakeup in what's effective in a few months, so unless you need stuff immediately for a tourney or something, it may pay to hold off on buying anything new for a little while yet.
(Though, granted, FW stuff probably won't be affected as much... maybe)
Klowny wrote: I have a few sentry pylons, they are good in mech lists, as they offer very good firepower. But TBHid just get a 3rd TA, unless you want some of the other ones. If you do end up getting a pylon, get the gauss one and get a heat ray from a stalker, and magnetise both weapon options. The death ray is useless.
I cant remember the names but the centipede with the big mouth gun is the one you want, the other doesn't offer as much.
If you want variety, get the pylon, if you want to be competitive, consider a 3rd TA. 3 are more than enough heavy support in a game, then you can pad out the rest of the list with whatever you want.
[spoiler]
The mouth gun is on the tomb sentinel of which i have 1 already.
skoffs wrote: It would do everyone to bear in mind that we're probably going to experience a shakeup in what's effective in a few months, so unless you need stuff immediately for a tourney or something, it may pay to hold off on buying anything new for a little while yet.
(Though, granted, FW stuff probably won't be affected as much... maybe)
Would the codex have any say on the units in the FW book? Except it could make them relatively worse by making the codex units that much better.
skoffs wrote: It would do everyone to bear in mind that we're probably going to experience a shakeup in what's effective in a few months, so unless you need stuff immediately for a tourney or something, it may pay to hold off on buying anything new for a little while yet.
(Though, granted, FW stuff probably won't be affected as much... maybe)
Would the codex have any say on the units in the FW book? Except it could make them relatively worse by making the codex units that much better.
Has far as I've seen both ranges are treated as separate so we would need to await an update from forgeworld to see any points or ability changes to go with the Cron codex changes.
Spoiler:
I know it's been mentioned but all I'm expecting from the codex is maybe 3 dynasty rules giving out potential buffs and nowt new in regards of figures or weapons.
Stratagems
Probably get mind scarabs back as use on an enemy within X inches. Can act with him in that phase (1cp)
Rapid deployment option to bring on X number of units held in reserve. (1-3) cp Gauss field reduce all incoming attack strengths of weapons by 1 in the enemies shooting phase (2cp)
Tesseract cube- one use only target enemy within X inches unit must pass a leadership test or remove that amount of figures it was over by. (3cp)
I'd bring more TA over DDA, and immortals are good but maybe bring some anni barges if you want to keep it mech but need horde control? You have fly so you're not too scared of his infantry. Just be very careful of autocannons and his HWT if he brings them, flat 2 damage bypasses QS with ease.
I'd bring as many Scarabs as you can shoehorn in too, good screens and tie up conscripts like a boss.
Sadly I only have the one CCB model that is the closest thing I have to a proxy for the TA. Need to get the dimensions on that and makeshift something till I get more models...
But figured the DDA's made good wingmen for the Gauss Pylon considering they'd get the invul saves from it (plus with QS I might be able to tank an explosion).
Also point of the match is as many vehicles as possible, I only took the scarabs to eat up the remaining points (will probably put them around Toholk and run him down mid since he'll be mostly pointless except for ammo sponge). Probably no objectives etc, just a relaxed shooting gallery game. I actually might just say screw the formations and dump the leader and the scarabs, just wish I had another stalker.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Does he field mostly infantry or does he also have artillery.
He usually fields artillery primarily anyway, but the point of this game especially will be the shooting gallery of big vehicles.
Would the codex have any say on the units in the FW book? Except it could make them relatively worse by making the codex units that much better.
Chapter Approved will have point changes for FW. So they may have changes done to them. Maybe even typo things like Toholk the Blind's melee weapon's special ability doing nothing by raw.
Lothmar wrote: Anyone else hoping that they bring back the unique staff types and make those available to crypteks so we can have a court of mages again?
Everyone is hoping for a return of the harbingers, but let's not turn this into a wishlist thread.
I'm proxying a cryptek until they're in stock, have an overlord, 20 immortals, 40 warriors, 10 deathmarks, 9 scarabs, 3 destroyers, and a monolith just under 1850 points. I beat someone with a land raider crusader which was owning my troops until the reanimation protocols kicked in. It was the only
unit on the table with 5 wounds left at the end of the game. I know monoliths have anti tank weaponry but it's over 300 points. I lack anti tank and was wondering what I could acquire in the future. Should I proxy up to 5 heavy destroyers which I own destroyers or should I purchase anything else?
Someone told me to drop the monolith. What's the most effective?
Edit: I have two monoliths if anyone disagrees they are bad and are in fact very effective. Thanks.
BillyN831 wrote: I'm proxying a cryptek until they're in stock, have an overlord, 20 immortals, 40 warriors, 10 deathmarks, 9 scarabs, 3 destroyers, and a monolith just under 1850 points. I beat someone with a land raider crusader which was owning my troops until the reanimation protocols kicked in. It was the only
unit on the table with 5 wounds left at the end of the game. I know monoliths have anti tank weaponry but it's over 300 points. I lack anti tank and was wondering what I could acquire in the future. Should I proxy up to 5 heavy destroyers which I own destroyers or should I purchase anything else?
Someone told me to drop the monolith. What's the most effective?
Edit: I have two monoliths if anyone disagrees they are bad and are in fact very effective. Thanks.
I'm hoping that they bring out a couple good monolith formations when the codex drops as I've over 5k of points of monoliths
I'm understrength at 1383pts with a Space Wolf ally at 1001pts.
We are facing off against two Demon armies, a large host of Tzeentch at 2684pts and a Nurgle mix of Demons and Death Gaurd at 2434pts.
We are somewhat understrength (the tzeench force is about 300pts above us. I was planning on bringing Deceiver to deploy right at the central objective with a Ghost Ark full of characters and my 20 Warriors, 15 Immortals and all the scarabs I can fit in. Just hope that our resilience will hold against that many smites and firepower from the defilers of the DG player.
Space wolf ally would bring somw long ranged firepower to support my core.
BillyN831 wrote: I would run 10 or 20 immortals as opposed to 15 because reanimation protocol benefits full squads more.
I agree, but if I'm to field a batallion I need 3 troop choices and all I have are 15 Immortals and 20 Warriors. I can max the warrior and one Immortal squad, but the last one will sadly remain at 5 models until I can get another box in.
I'm hoping that they bring out a couple good monolith formations when the codex drops as I've over 5k of points of monoliths
You have what? 15 monoliths?
Yip I used to run the old monolith formations that used multiple monoliths to gain additional benefits. In my club they have a large amount of super heavies and with our pylon getting a number of changes over dif books and then such a nerf in the last book meant needed other ways to play. Very intimidating dropping 8 monoliths and a vault or 8 monos with a doomsday monolith . Or a part of multiple formations.
I'm understrength at 1383pts with a Space Wolf ally at 1001pts.
We are facing off against two Demon armies, a large host of Tzeentch at 2684pts and a Nurgle mix of Demons and Death Gaurd at 2434pts.
We are somewhat understrength (the tzeench force is about 300pts above us. I was planning on bringing Deceiver to deploy right at the central objective with a Ghost Ark full of characters and my 20 Warriors, 15 Immortals and all the scarabs I can fit in. Just hope that our resilience will hold against that many smites and firepower from the defilers of the DG player.
Space wolf ally would bring somw long ranged firepower to support my core.
What would you guys do?
Wait, your bringing 2300 points to their 5000? That seems like its an auto lose, I wouldn't even bother at that points disparity unless you had major advantages (i dont know the mission so im not sure).
But smite will absolutely wreck the armies. It is quite effective, especially when you consider the numbers they are bringing it in. Seriously, 2700 extra points, with the larger part being tzeench that can spam psykers out the wazoo?
In regards to 15 Immortals and 20 Warriors,
A 5 / 10 / 20 split should be fine, with the 20 in the middle of the table for board control, the 10 coming around a flank, and the 5 taking an objective in cover.
Pyrothem wrote: Frontline is having Jessica on as a guest to run her Necron List she got 51's in Nova on friday against new Death Guard.
With all the smights I don't have any faith in wraith heavy list.
That is one I'll try to tune in for.
I encourage everyone else on this board to do so as well, and try to ask some questions.
Maybe then we can find out what exactly it is that they think makes Crons so "great" this edition, despite their abysmal performances in the competitive scene.
Did anyone else get to see the game yesterday? I live in a bad time zone for this. Tried to clicking their link today, but I can only get it to play from turn 4, necrons seem pressed back against their own board edge.
Crons lost on points, but they were getting overrun at the end of round 5, with not much left, had it gone on to 6-7 there wouldn't be much more than the pylon left
How are necrons in free for all games? In team games they always target my ally first since renanimation protocol which is a bummer. Will they to my advantage target me last or will I have to see for myself in 6 hours? Thanks.
Klowny wrote: Crons lost on points, but they were getting overrun at the end of round 5, with not much left, had it gone on to 6-7 there wouldn't be much more than the pylon left
I guess the HQs invul saves were holding up against the pylons. Did they comment on Necron's strength in general?
I only watched snippets to get an idea of the game but yea the pylon (single) took 3 turns of it and anni barges to kill mortarion, he rolled his ++'s for days.
I watched the whole game. It literally told 140 minutes to complete.
Main notes
- The 1st 3 turns only took 40 minutes due to foot-slogging DG and Jessica having all her crons in a "gun line".
- She put her 3 10 warriors units on a 3 story building with a Cryptek and Pylon tucked behind the building. It seems pretty affective against pox walkers but wasn't useful against the Space Marines when Frankie was casting +1 toughness.
- Pylon focused on Mortarion all game (as expected) and killed Morty turn 3. On it's 1st turn she got a 6 on the d6, got 5 to-wound rolls, Frankie saved all of those bar one but used a CP to re-roll and saved it. Turn 2 she was able to get 2 wound rolls through and did 9 wounds. Turn 3 she got the final bit of damage done on Morty and vanished him from existence. She then used the Pylons second gun profile because of how close all the other DG was getting.
- Wraiths did pretty good in holding up Frankie's DG Space Marines and eating up the Pox walkers. 2 units died to Mortal Wounds though through our the game.
- I don't remember the Anni Barge doing much but the game was so fast paced that if you zoned out you were missing whole phase or turns. It took about 10 minutes to do the 1st turn. Before I knew it it was turn 3 40 minutes into the game.
- Frankie looked like he was going to be tabled by turn 4 but he rolled amazingly well with his saves and Disgusting Resilience. The chat tried to accuse him of "weighted " dice but I guess he just rolled well.
- Jess was able to win on points by. I think it was 5-2/3 by the end of the game. It was ITC game 6. Search and Destroy.
- If anything, and this is the most important thing, Frankie seemed surprised by how well the Necrons stood up to his list but I feel like Reece will use that game as fuel to push on about the Necrons being better then want everyone says.
- Turn 5 the DG finally got into CC with the crons but because they rolled less then a 3+ to continue the game it ended in Jessicas favour. They both agreed that the game would have been in DG favour if it went to turn 7 due to Frankie having all his army within charging distance of her army.
It was a good game to watch from a Necron point of view. I am only worried about how her game will affect people's thoughts on our army being more OP then what it actually is.
Thanks! So warriors and anni barges cleared the pox walkers, and wraiths held off stronger CC units and ate smites so that she could pull off a victory at turn 5? What about the DP and Typhus?
DP and Typhus just gave buffs to the SM and Poxwalkers, occasionally cast smite, +1 toughness to the SM and -1 toughness on the warriors and Cryptek. I don't really remember them doing much. They are CC units with 7" buffs so they weren't able to do anything unless in CC but because it took 5 turns and the game ended on turn 5 they were just used as aura buffers.
They might have the game uploaded on YouTube or you could try watch it on Twitch.
The only reason Wraiths soaked Mortal Wounds was because they were the closest models to the DG. They probably would have destroyed the SM if they got into CC.
I'm understrength at 1383pts with a Space Wolf ally at 1001pts.
We are facing off against two Demon armies, a large host of Tzeentch at 2684pts and a Nurgle mix of Demons and Death Gaurd at 2434pts.
We are somewhat understrength (the tzeench force is about 300pts above us. I was planning on bringing Deceiver to deploy right at the central objective with a Ghost Ark full of characters and my 20 Warriors, 15 Immortals and all the scarabs I can fit in. Just hope that our resilience will hold against that many smites and firepower from the defilers of the DG player.
Space wolf ally would bring somw long ranged firepower to support my core.
Wait, your bringing 2300 points to their 5000? That seems like its an auto lose, I wouldn't even bother at that points disparity unless you had major advantages (i dont know the mission so im not sure).
But smite will absolutely wreck the armies. It is quite effective, especially when you consider the numbers they are bringing it in. Seriously, 2700 extra points, with the larger part being tzeench that can spam psykers out the wazoo?
No, I'm sorry I should have said it better. It's three opposing armies: Me and Space Wolves, the Tzeench force and the Nurgle force. The two demon armies are enemies. It's a three player scenario, only me and the space wolves are allies.
Carnage is played with a single objective at the center of the table. My take is I have a hard time dealing damage to dislodge an enemy in there, but I may just be able to surround the objective with my models and just park there the entire game.
About the Frontline game a decent gunline army would have tabled the DG. Considering that the pylon only did 6 wounds to Morty and the A barges and Warriors did the rest imagine what a Bobby G gunline would do.
Hammer and anvil deployment is not easy for a foot slogging army especially if they would play against a long range shooting army.
Inevitableq wrote: Out ot curiosity, is there any artwork or other examples of toholk the blinded. And does anyone have any suggestions on how to convert/kit bash him?
Inevitableq wrote: Out ot curiosity, is there any artwork or other examples of toholk the blinded. And does anyone have any suggestions on how to convert/kit bash him?
Take a Deathmark head scratch out the eye?
Perhaps use the socket for something else, some gadget or tool or sensor
Automatically Appended Next Post: I started a thread in painting and modeling about this, you'll find it easily, would be nice to brainstorm what options there are to stay as true to the lore as possible
Toholk is supposed to be malformed with a damaged head but to compensate he built himself a vision aid helmet contraption. For my toholk I used a puppet wars robot as a base for him.
New Necron player here, loooking for some advice - I'm close to finishing a fairly standard infantry-based army - overlord, cryptek, immortals, warriors, plenty of scarabs. But I'm a bit light on anti-tank.
I already have a triarch stalker, what else should I get? Another stalker? A doomsday ark? Annihilation barge?
Right now I'm kind of leaning towards a DA, that should synergize well with a TS, right?
Why isn't FW allowed in your meta? Feels kinda dumb to allow GW miniatures not FW when they can be played in the same game.
I would take a Second Triarch Stalker tbh, I personally don't like the DDA because it's heavy D3 is unreliable and the only way to make them reliable is to take 3-5 of them which will eat into your points quite fast.
Annihilation Barge can be useful but mostly agaisnt units with terrible saves.
FW is where we excel and if your meta doesn't allow it then your stuck with reliable ways to deal with toughness 6-9 units... I would personally hold off till the Codex to see if anything gets better and just play 1000pt or less games so that you don't have to invest into new models as everything you have right now will do well.
Heavy Destroyers might help as well but they can be easily killed if your opponent really wants them gone.
I'm also staying away from FW for now since my meta was similiar in 7th. Not sure where it will land in 8th.
I like the DDA. Sure they can be unreliable at times and are best taken in pairs in combination with a Stalker.
What most people seem to forget is that they also have gauss flayer arrays. At short range they put out more damage than an AB.
This also means that a Ghost Ark does more damage than an AB at rapid fire range. With 6 more wounds and the ability to reroll RP for warriors for 24 points more.
Back to the DDA. I've actually found out that the DDA is more usefull at midfield rather than licking the board end. This way it can use those gauss flayers.
How many points are the armies in your meta? I usually play at 1500 points and have a hard time squeezing in a C'tan. At 2000 I include the Deceiver.
What most people seem to forget is that they also have gauss flayer arrays. At short range they put out more damage than an AB.
I actually like the DDA. 14 wounds, 6 toughness, good movement, Quantum Shielding and yes, the fire power of 10 warriors (I actually prefer to take the DDA over warriors so I can field more Immortals). The main reason for the DDA is the Doomsday Cannon though but at D3 shoots it is hard to justify its reasoning to be fielded (imo). If the gun was Heavy 3 and it's damage was D3+3 then I would field them all day every day without hesitation.
I rather take 2 Triarch Stalkers with THG because you get 4 S9 -4 D6 shots instead of rolling. It does cost 342pts though but 2 DDAs cost 406pts... I guess the shooting fire of 20 warriors is good if you have none.
In my 1000 point games the Stalker has been my MVP (even killed off a 4 wound flying demon Prince in melee). Most people charge them as you do with all tanks but with the flamer heat ray option and decent melee I let them come and smile when QS takes the bite out of those multi wound giving characters.
Thanks guys. I'm close to 2000 points, and probably I will try out the DDA. Didn't think of the flayer arrays, the plan was to keep it in a corner with a scarab screen, but I will try it midfield I think.
Probably I will get a second stalker anyway though, because I think it's such a cool model, so then I can try both ways...
Keep it screened by a 9 base squad of scarabs however, helps to pick and choose what you engage with. I agree with stalkers, love the model. So cool!!!
Cmdr_Sune wrote: DDA = Stalker
= DDA 14W and 3+, Stalker 10W and 3+
= They are on average equal with their heavy weapons.
DDA + 72" range
+ Gauss flayers.
+ Fly.
Stalker
+ A little bit if CC + Targeting relay
Factoring in cost vs damage output vs survivability, wonder what comes out on top, there?
I have a feeling it'll be the DDA. Its extra range will keep it safer longer.
(granted, the Tesseract Ark is probably going to be better than them both)
Times arrow has got me thinking. With a CP reroll the chances of sniping a commissar is pretty good, and it's a more reliable method of killing TH/SS termies pretty efficiently. Most situations still call for the 'smite' but I'm going to start using it ore and more, especially against guard and eldar and other fragile armies
Tomb Blade
Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shadowloom
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shadowloom
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shadowloom
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shadowloom
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Triarch Stalker with THG will target T7-9 units to help the Tomb Sentinel re-rolling 1s.
Tomb Sentinel will primarily Target high Toughness units due to it's exile Cannon being a a tank killer. GP is to deny a pysk power incase it is needed.
Triarch Stalker with Particle Shredder will mostly target T6 and below units to help the Tesla Immortals and Gauss Tomb Blades.
Annihilation Barge will target units that are left over from the Immortals and TBs.
2 units of Deathmarks are for Character snipping, placing on Objectives, anti-DS and line breaker if possible. Can potentially kill high toughness units as every 6+ to wound does an MW.
2 units of Scarabs are for board control and to prevent the Triarch Stalkers or TBs from being charged.
TB will target infantry models and other T5 or lower units. 3 have 3+ save to get a 2+ in cover and 4 have 5+ invul so when they are targeted I can choose which model to roll on to have a better chance of them surviving.
Cryptek with give 5+ Invul to Immortals if I don't put them in cover and to give 4+ RP to the Immortals and maybe TBs if I Daisy Chain them to get the benefit.
Overlord with give MWBD on the Immortals.
Any one have any tips on what I can improve or swap out? Cheers guys.
I find warriors to be more durable than immortals because wiping out a 20 man squad is harder than a 10 man squad. Anyways, how are tomb blades 8th edition? I've got three and never used them.
The problem I find with 20 man warriors is that we can loss a lot through Morale and I only have 5CPs so I rather not pay 2cp to make them pass morale. I prefer a unit of 14-16 and if I am going to do that I might as well take a GA or DDA.
I like TBs, they can always get into Rapid fire range and a unit of 7 will dish out 28 shots and if they can re-roll 1s it make them so much better. Great at killing T5 and low units.you can also equip them to either have 3+ save, 5+ invul or to ignore cover. I personally always take a mixture of 3+ and 5+ invul if taking Gauss. If using Tesla or Particle Beamer I give them Ignore cover. You might want more then 3 though because if all wiped out you can't RP them.
Klowny wrote: Times arrow has got me thinking. With a CP reroll the chances of sniping a commissar is pretty good, and it's a more reliable method of killing TH/SS termies pretty efficiently. Most situations still call for the 'smite' but I'm going to start using it ore and more, especially against guard and eldar and other fragile armies
Haven't really put much thought into Times arrow, but the way you describe it it might not be so bad.
Requires more planning and tactics which is always fun when you succeed.
Tomb Blade
Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shieldvanes
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shadowloom
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shadowloom
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shadowloom
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Tomb Blade
Shadowloom
Two Gauss Blasters
2x Gauss Blaster
Looks like a fun army to play. It will put some pressure on your opponent with it's mobility.
It might lack a bit of heavy support if you face a vehicle heavy army, but then you could always play objectives and missions.
I will be very eager to hear how the two Deathmark units perform.
Looks like a fun army to play. It will put some pressure on your opponent with it's mobility.
It might lack a bit of heavy support if you face a vehicle heavy army, but then you could always play objectives and missions.
I will be very eager to hear how the two Deathmark units perform.
from previous game I found the Triarch Stalker and Tomb Sentinel to be quite the pair when it comes to anti-heavy Vehicles. I could swap the Particle Shredder for the THG but I like the option if having 2 ways of re-rolling 1s
A friend of mine demo-straighted how 40 Deathmarks can cripple Flying Tzeentch Circus and Conscript Spam. Over the course of 4 turns against FTC he killed 4 Daemon Princesses, The Changling and 4 Exhalted Flamers.
All 180 Conscripts were gone by turn 3 due to the Deathmarks and 2 Tesseract Vaults going into flaming range. It was a blood bath but opened my eyes to how well Deathmarks can be. You just need to have lots of them to make sure your getting as many 6+ to wound as possible.
Odrankt wrote: Cryptek with give 5+ Invul to Immortals if I don't put them in cover and to give 4+ RP to the Immortals and maybe TBs if I Daisy Chain them to get the benefit.
Can Tomb Blades benefit from generic Crypteks buffs?
I compared Deathmarks and Immortals in my mathhammare spread sheet.
10 Deathmarks compared to 10 Immortals because that's max squad sizes. Gauss is at rapid fire range and so are the Deathmarks.
The numbers to the far right is just a sum of all the wounds. I like to have that to see how viable the unit is towards all targets.
Some conclusions:
- Deathmarks are viable against most targets thanks to mortal wounds.
- Deathmarks should perhaps be compared to Tesla Immortals in the first hand since Gauss Immortals need to manouver into rapid fire range.
- Tesla is of course better against low armored units.
- You actually get almost 12 Tesla Immortals for the cost of 10 Deathmarks. In that comparison Tesla is better against anything but high toughness 3+ or all toughness 2+.
...and of course Deathmarks can deep strike which is huge.
I've just been running them in small 5 man units, but can definetly see the appeal of several units of 10 in an army.
Sadly I run a Battalion detachement 95% of the times which makes it difficult to include large units of Deathmarks.
Now if Deathmarks would be a troop choice in the codex (not going to happen) then they would be amazing.
Perhaps there will be some crazy Stratagem for them, then let's just hope that Necrons can get more CP some way since the CP system seems broken.
There was a guy on youtube who ran .. a gadzillion deathmarks, essentialyl it was all deathmarks and some doomsday arks against tyranids. He dropped deathmarks left and right and eventually almost tabled the nids player, but I think it ended with a realtively close points victory
Odrankt wrote: Cryptek with give 5+ Invul to Immortals if I don't put them in cover and to give 4+ RP to the Immortals and maybe TBs if I Daisy Chain them to get the benefit.
Can Tomb Blades benefit from generic Crypteks buffs?
The 5+ Invul only affects Infantry models but the 4+ RP is totally legal. Taken from the generic Cryptek; Add 1 to all Reanimation Protocol rolls for models from friendly DYNASTY units within 3" of any friendly DYNASTY CRYPTEKS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nice Spread sheet, never thought about comparing them to Tesla Immortals. You can also factor in that they are snippers so they can target enemy Characters without any issue.
The only problem with DM is that they are 20pts a model so 10 cost 200 and if you bring 3-4 full units that's 600-800pts already spent. Granted it can totally be worth it from what I saw IRL. I just wish they were 17pts a model just like Immortals. I feel at 170pts for 10 of them looks a lot better then 200pts for 10.
Looks like a fun army to play. It will put some pressure on your opponent with it's mobility.
It might lack a bit of heavy support if you face a vehicle heavy army, but then you could always play objectives and missions.
I will be very eager to hear how the two Deathmark units perform.
from previous game I found the Triarch Stalker and Tomb Sentinel to be quite the pair when it comes to anti-heavy Vehicles. I could swap the Particle Shredder for the THG but I like the option if having 2 ways of re-rolling 1s
A friend of mine demo-straighted how 40 Deathmarks can cripple Flying Tzeentch Circus and Conscript Spam. Over the course of 4 turns against FTC he killed 4 Daemon Princesses, The Changling and 4 Exhalted Flamers.
All 180 Conscripts were gone by turn 3 due to the Deathmarks and 2 Tesseract Vaults going into flaming range. It was a blood bath but opened my eyes to how well Deathmarks can be. You just need to have lots of them to make sure your getting as many 6+ to wound as possible.
2 Tesseract Arks you mean? How could 2 small flamers even start to move 180 conscripts over 3 turns? They'd score 21 hits over 3 turns, inflicting some... 15 kills?
Because he split fired his 4 units of Deathmarks Into them as well so he had 5 Deathmarks per unit of Conscripts within Rapid Fire range and used the Tesseract Arks Flamers as well. Over the course of 3 turns he was able to dispatch of them.
So image the 40 Deathmarks shot at the left hand side and the TA flanked the right and slowly came into the middle of the Conscripts spam. He also used a Unit of Tesla Immortals on turn 3 but it was mainly the Deathmarks and TAs that did all the killing.
Huh. its almost 120 on average down to the last model.So they were too slow to get into combat over 2/3 turns? Did he pull back while they advanced and just withered them down?
statistics says the 40 deathmarks (in rapid fire range) dispatch 32/33 models, the 2 TA's do another 3-9, depending on flamer being in range (assuming tesla).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ofcourse plain warriors (67 for the price of 40 deathmarks) kill 50 conscripts each turn in rapid fire range, though they couldn't drop into rapid fire range in the first place, and would be a much tastier target to assault with them.
Did he not want to assault 10 lone deathmarks? Ie rather walk them up the field for juicier targets?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The DM also threaten the commissar for some nasty moral situations for the conscripts.
So he had turn 1 and moved them up but then gave him room to DS the Deathmarks. On his turn he move the TA within flaming range and then dropped all 40 behind him.
On the conscripts turn 2 he was conflicted as to what to do because the DM were all on 3 story Terrain so it was hard for the Conscripts to get the charge, and anytime he did try and charge them the DM were able to get about 8 shots in Overwatch and rolled about 2 4+, 1 5+ and 3 6+ for 3 mortal wounds plus 6 saving throws. He tried to charge the the TAs but with the ability to roll 3 dice for charge distance and discarding the highest stopped all that from happening. Plus the TA is able to shoot 2 guns in Overwatch so that did quite a lot as well.
On the Necrons turn 2 he moved the Tesla Immos in position incase they were needed as back up, shot the DM and TA the Conscripts and went to town on them.
On the Conscripts turn 3 he basically moved them all into a "deathstar" kind of format and tried to focus fire on the DM but their 2+ save stopped the majority of them from dying. The Necron player lost like 6 of them out of 40 and got them all back with RP.
Necron player turn 3 then Shoot the fuq out of the Conscripts with the DM and TAs and left 1 unit of Immos with MWBD to take out a 2 units of them via split fire and each unit only having 2 Conscripts left and then charged the TAs into the last remaining Conscript unit and Destroyed them in CC.
The Necron player had amazing rolls tbf but it was staggering how much damage the out out over 3 turns.
Stats say DM should kill on average 33-34 but with 6+ being Mortal wounds plus a saving throw and Dice being random it's kind of hard to look at statistics. Plus he did a lot of damage to himself trying to charge the TAs and DMs.
1: Can Nightshrouds use their bombardment to snipe characters cause they can target any unit they moved over? I know it's wasteful but I just wanted to know cause I like having options open.
2: If I use Triarch stalkers for their targeting relay, does this allow me to reroll 1's on Seismic Assault power, Death sphere bombardment or Stormlords lightning drop? Or are those considered to wound rolls? Also does it allow you to reroll the number of hits when say using a flamer weapon like Gauntlet of fire or dispersed heat ray?
3: If im running Stormlord, Ctan's with Seismic assault and Nightshrouds as part of a horde slap build, am I correct in assuming the order I should use them are....
Ctans (assuming initiative grand illusion as appropriate) - Cause its 1dice per model...
Followed by Stormlord - because you are dealing in all other units in 6" proximity and widdling down horde models could effect this. (The only reason I see to change this order around might be if you are dealing with chaos horrors or stuff that spawn other mobs as you kill them etc and thus you can generate more rolls from this by doing damage first.)
Followed by the nightshrouds who would only bomb squads if they have 4x vehicles/monsters in a squad or 12+ models left for max effect. If no such target is available then base it off highest armor/invul saves cause mortal wounds.
4 - Also I assume the 'within 6" ' on lord of storm is just from the first unit right? It doesn't let me hit unit number 2 and then jump to another unit up to 6" from that one etc until all units have been hit at least once assuming I can keep chaining a route?
Klowny wrote: We can only go on averages, obviously the dice may betray us.
In reference to clearing out that amount of conscripts, I suppose the TA's tesla would have done some work too.
I'm not saying that having averages is a bad idea, for the most part, I use averages to compare which units I want to bring in my army e.g DDA reliability vs a Triarch Stalker or Tesseract Ark, Tesla Immortals vs Gauss Immortals. It is just hard to average the Deathmarks due to 6+ basically giving you an unsaved wound and a wound you get to roll a save on. In his game the only thing that betrayed him was the TA Tesla Cannons not rolling any 6s.
Yeah the TA used his Tesla Cannons but they basically rolled 4s 5s. He only got to Overwatch once with the telsa cannons on both of the TAs in all the Charge phase they were subjected in.
In my list I hope to use the TBs in the same way he used the TA. Damage out put isn't as much but 28 S5 -2 d1 shots with re-rolling 1s, if the Triarch Stalker shot 1st, should do quite a lot of damage to Conscripts spam and Brimstone/Pink Horrors spam with back up from the DMs, Tesla Immos and Triarch Stalker.
I would think MWBD tesla immortals would be the goto tool for horde control, or be in the toolbox at least
(tip: the fancy dice tool I'm linking to in my signature let's you see dmg output from deathmarks including all rolls (the snipe checkbox if you expand the weapon options) . You could eg punch in 40 DM and 2 Ta and see their total damage output over different combinations of Toughness and armor saves, then add a new army and punch in some other units you'd like to consider for horde control and flicker forth and back to compare)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I agree on the TB part, they also offer great speed to go where they need to be. It would be nice if they could fit in a horde control strategy
Unreal, I'll make sure to use it Torblind when I want to compare different units.
I structured my list to deal with hordes (Tesla Immortals w/ mwbd, Tomb Blades, particle shedder Triarch Stalker, Deathmarks and Tesla Annihilation Barge) units with 2+-3+ saves (Tomb Blades, Triarch Stalker with THG, Cryptek SoL) and high Toughness units (TS with THG and the tomb Sentinel).
Scarabs are literally there to either hold things up or to protect some units from being charged.
Hi dakka. Long time reader, occasional poster. I primarily play Necron and I am working on my 2000 point take all comers list for 8th. I generally play one guy who usually brings either a Deathwatch list (Low model count, big armor, big guns, lots of HPs) or Harly / Eldar (Leaping murder clowns with invuln saves and psyker powers). I find that every list I build has a glaring weakness to one of his two armies, example is I used a monolith, stalker, DDark to kill his DW armor and my low shot count high AP guns were useless next game on Harl transports. Right now I have an inventory of:
Overlord
CCB (Or Anni Barge)
Orikan
D Lord
40 warriors
5 immortals (Gauss)
5 deathmarks
5 lychguard (Shield)
Stalker (Heat Ray)
Spyder
9 scarabs
3 wraiths
3 tomb blades (PB)
9 destroyers
2 heavy destroyers
Monolith
DD Ark
I rarely magnetize despite it being stupid not to mostly because I add narrative to my guys as part of the enjoyment and narrative breaks down quickly when their arms come off. So preamble aside here is my question... I am going to partner up with my buddy on a Forgeworld buy to save on shipping. I am thinking about the Tesla Ark and possibly a Gauss Pylon to build a 2000 point 8th edition list around. Can I build around that with what I have? Or is it better to look at something like a sentinel or maybe two T arks instead of the pylon? I like the idea of a robot death centipede but I also like the idea of my kid going to college some day so I need to meter our my spending where I can.
I enjoy pairing a Gauss Pylon with a cluster of vehicles all of which have Quantum shielding so that not only do they get an invul save in case of high AP but if the GP does explode and do high damage then you have a chance of tanking it.
Throw in some dedicated spyder repair guys and keep em near their respective armor to fix em and some scarabs to rush out of the invul field (though keep them near the edge too) and counter charge stuff coming at you as a stop gap.
Keeping your spyders and scarabs near the bubble perimeter might let you stroll out and avoid the 50% explosion if you're lucky enough that an entire turn of fire power doesn't take it down. If enemies take out scarabs then you can replenish them with spyders.
You could run Toholk with this concept and buff the GP with D3 instead of 1 for living metal, if it's on the board turn 1 but it should only be deployed via TP in case of Seize in my opinion. Ive lost it turn one before. But if you have init and are willing to take the risk for the bisk then who am I to argue.
However since the GP doesnt have Quantum shielding and is just a wound sponge and at best you are getting back 2d3 a round, i'd honestly say putting that on the Tesseract ark might be better cause that thing has its own invul save already as well as QS making it even more annoying vanguard mobile.
If you do field Toholk, fielding him with a full man squad of warriors or two and a ghost ark or two makes the best use of him being a cryptek in my opinion. The ghost ark can also be turned to be part of the GP's defense line castling and the warriors arrayed in front of that and you can just march them at the enemies or keep them around in case of Deep strike or infiltration shenanigans so you can keep your vehicles from getting tied up and deny deployment area by spreading out if that's the type of army you are fielding against.
---
But if im restricting myself to just the models you listed and you wont be proxying...
CCB - (still an overlord with QS so even tankier in the GP field)
Orikon (as himself or run as Toholk or a cryptek if shaving points. Just need for RP and invul. Note - applies to Destroyers caus infantry.)
Destroyer lord + rez orb + staff - 187
Destroyer squad (5x Destroyers and 1 Heavy destroyer) - 390 (keep near cryptek but outside of GP bubble and in range of CCB for MWBD. Hits on 2+ reroll 1's on hits and wounds. Dont need Stalker at this point cause cant reroll reroll so either remove it or have these fire on targets other then what stalker shoots for and all vehciles focus down your Stalker target and then move on once done.)
Gauss pylon - TP matrix - 485
Monolith - drop this in GP's field but between it and enemies and in weapons range - 381
Stalker (heat ray) - 171 (if not WYSIWYG then +10 for the Twin gauss so it be behind the GP and still in range)
1 spyder
1 DDA
check points and adjust as needed...
Tesla ark is really fun, if you have room field it but it will be with your vanguard forces. Run it forward and lure fools into trying to charge it and laugh at their misfortune if you get lucky.
Hm seeing how deathguard got an awesome near 500 pt primarch with their codex, makes me optimistic that we might have a worthwhile silent King waiting down the road with our codex
torblind wrote: Hm seeing how deathguard got an awesome near 500 pt primarch with their codex, makes me optimistic that we might have a worthwhile silent King waiting down the road with our codex
I can see Szerakh the Silent King being a LoW as well. I hope he isn't much bigger then the other HQs though. If he is the same size as Imotekh and really detailed I would be happy with that. in terms of his point cost. I hope he is less then 400. If he is around 300pts that would be amazing. Unlss they gave him crazy rules that would make him worth 400+ points.
Based off of our fluff I feel like he should have specific weaponary against the Tyranids due to them being our biggest threat.
The Void Dragon would also be a cool model to have as a LoW. Maybe the Silent King will be a normal HQ and the VD could be a new LoW?
Also, after watching MWGs review of Codex Ad Mech and the way their forge world's work. Do any of ye think we will get specific buffs and stratagems based off of our Dynasties? We should atleast get our Artifacts of Aeons in the same way DG gets to use their relics.
Not trying to start a "wish list" just curious on your opinions on what we might get with our Codex
Definitely, I can very well see dynasties getting stratagems and artifacts following distinct flavors. I was impressed by the diversity in abilities they dug out for Admech. Necrons being essentially a blank canvas in terms of wargear and abilities, shold be easy to add exiting new rules to.
Would the Void Dragon fight along side the necrons though? Seems he would fight against them rather.
Would the Void Dragon fight along side the necrons though? Seems he would fight against them rather.
I believe due to the C'tan keyword that if we were to field the Void Dragon we would need either Deceiver, Nightbringer or Transcendent C'tan to be within the same army as it. GW could update our fluff to make it work in a way that it would rather target other armies rather then Necrons.
You do make a good point in the the VD would turn on us if it had the chance so maybe it won't be a LoW or even modelled? I just want it to be a model cause I can only imagine how bad ass it would look.
Almost every C'tan was sharded (notable exception being the Outsider), so we'd still only be seeing a Shard of the Void Dragon... but they could make him a bigger version, like the old Apocalypse Transcendent version (... just not as broken).
I would expect to see rules for the Silent King, however I feel that there shouldn't be rules for powerful beings such as the Silent King, Primarchs, Swarm Lord, etc.
I'd rather only have them in the fluff saying how powerful they are. When you have killed Bobby G (or have had him killed) a dozen times on the tabletop it's weird to read about how badass he is in the novels.
What GW should do instead is to give our normal characters more options so that you can create your own "special character". Of course this will not happen.
About the Void Dragon, I would hazard to guess that they must have a large shard on Mars. I hope they don't publish the rules in the codex before they have had a major story arc involving the Void Dragon and Necrons wrecking havoc in the Sol system.
It's easier with the Silent King, because he can just say he has returned and then expand the story afterwards about the Tyranid threat..
I'm more expecting the crons to get the formations within formations again like last edition, as death guard as nearly 1:1 taken over our old rules and roles from last edition.
As it's been said we will prob look more like an admek army with individual buffs and equipment going to each named tomb world. With maybe a couple generic ones to be used to create own awakening world.
It would be good to see more of the other named Cron hqs brought out as options, I'm doubting that they would do the silent King as his abilities to control crons was severed with most cron leaders hating him. ( would also work against the tomb world individual factions tats been alluded to for this edition). All he would get would be a praetorian army.
It would be good to see things like the tomb board and the non pylon titanic vehicles getting an overhaul. Fw really need to do a doomsday monolith fig and rule set.
I wouldn't want to see the criptek circus of earlier editions but defo allow some technological individualisation.
They promised that every race would have something coming their way with the launch of the gathering storm series , it should be easy to spin a story that involves both tyranids and necrons, somehow trailing of from where the current empire/chaos/eldar is focus. Trazyn is already linked with Cawl and Creed, that's one possible start.
All we know is there's going to be a points shake up come December so, tactics-wise, I wouldn't suggest committing to any single army build until then, as far as buying new models go (something that's decent now might be garbage then, and stuff everyone is overlooking might suddenly become viable).
We may very well be getting new stuff once the codex come out, but that won't be until some time next year, so you can't really "plan" for it.
Tesla immortals with MWBD on them are champs at clearing drones. I see too many people not focus down the drones first. You know he is using them to add wounds to x so why shoot x when the drones have a far lower toughness and are easier to wound?
I know it feels unsatisfying to not be shooting the thing you want to kill but don't fall for their trap.
I do the exact same thing. I targeted a Ghostkeel with a Triarch Stalker and he put the wounds into the drones. So I spent 2 turns of MWBD telsa immos and my Gauss TBs to deal with all the drones before I focused on his bigger units. He wasn't happy when I found how to exploit his army
torblind wrote: Which rule is it that let's tau units put wounds on drones?
Saviour Protocols: If a <SEPT> DRONES unit is within 3" of a friendly <SEPT> INFANTRY or <SEPT> BATTLESUIT unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically it is like Lychguard Guardians Protocols.
So ive onky really been playing against my buddy and his tyranids. How do we deal with genestealers with catalyst? I dumped a full tesla anni barge, a monolith, imotekh and a DDA into a unit for 3 turns and only took out 6 or 7. The double 5++ is insane. Do we have an answer to this or is it really just pump shots into it and hope weight of fire eventually prevails?
Inevitableq wrote: So ive onky really been playing against my buddy and his tyranids. How do we deal with genestealers with catalyst? I dumped a full tesla anni barge, a monolith, imotekh and a DDA into a unit for 3 turns and only took out 6 or 7. The double 5++ is insane. Do we have an answer to this or is it really just pump shots into it and hope weight of fire eventually prevails?
I used 2 overlords and to full units of tesla immortals and mainly thanks to them I cleared 76 genestealers in a game recently and pulled a too close victory. Tesla exploding on 5+ just tore them down.
Also lychguard in cc with warscythes is nice because dealing 2 damage means their catalyst roll is now 5+ on 2 dice, which effectively cancels it out
In the games I played any time I successfully wounded a ghostkeel or whatever my opponent took their save and if they failed whatever my damage roll was, say I had a D6 damage and got a 3, then those 3 wounds would become 3 mortal wounds on the drones instead.
I don't play T'au so I am not sure hos it works tbh. Any one here play for the Greater Good?
It is the "shield drones" that get to use the inviln vs the wound. There was a big cry about it before the FAQ fixed it. (Before there was not inviln save so you would never use sheild drones Becuase they never got to use their shield)
According to Tau answers on the subject in YMDC, if the save-roll fails, the drone takes the wound, and it transmogrifies into 1 morwal wound, regardless of damage output, so a las gun that goes unsaved and a las cannon that goes unsaved both end up as one mortal wound on the drone unit, ie no dmg roll for the lascannon
BillyN831 wrote: What are the best Necron melee units? IS melee viable for Necrons? Thanks.
At the moment, just Scarabs, really.
- Scythe-Lychguard are good at killing things, but too slow with no reliable way to get them into combat that doesn't cost a fortune in points.
- Flayed Ones are good at killing things too, but too expensive and unwieldy with their 9" charge.
- Wraiths are good at staying alive, but don't really do much damage.
- Praetorians are good combat, but a little easy to kill for how much they cost.
- The Night Bringer is good against tough non-vehicles, but too slow.
Scarabs are fast, cheap, put out a lot of damage, and pretty survivable.
Yup learn to love scarabs, they are our screens against deep strike and melee rush army. With their speed they can tangle up armor and throw a few wounds around (they wound a landraider as well as marines). With a 10" move and a d6 advance on top of that means they can get to where they are needed most relatively easy.
Im starting to look more to wraiths tbh, after running scarabs today (2w-1L) my scarabs dont really ever do much. The lack of ap and s3 makes them wound on 5's most of the time, you hardly see the hordes they are good against. My local scene seems to love big stuff, not many hordes around, so the pylon is very well worth it (when it doesn't whiff and cause me to get tabled )
But wraiths are much more durable than scarabs, and have ap-1, still have a lot of attacks and most critically, -1 ap.
I think 6 naked wraiths, and 18 scarabs is a very good screen for an army that also has more offensive punch.
Klowny wrote: Im starting to look more to wraiths tbh, after running scarabs today (2w-1L) my scarabs dont really ever do much. The lack of ap and s3 makes them wound on 5's most of the time, you hardly see the hordes they are good against. My local scene seems to love big stuff, not many hordes around, so the pylon is very well worth it (when it doesn't whiff and cause me to get tabled )
But wraiths are much more durable than scarabs, and have ap-1, still have a lot of attacks and most critically, -1 ap.
I think 6 naked wraiths, and 18 scarabs is a very good screen for an army that also has more offensive punch.
I really don't think Wraiths are really more durable for the points.
Wraith: T5, 3+ Invuln, 3 wounds a pop, for 38 points.
Scarabs: T3, 6+ armour, 3 wounds a pop, for 13 points.
All calculations are going to be done AFTER hitting-they're both hit the same, so no need to calculate that in.
Lasguns Wraiths: (1/3)*(1/3)=1/9, or 4.22 points per hit.
Scarabs: (1/2)*(5/6)=5/12, or 5.42 points per hit.
Boltguns Wraiths: (1/3)*(1/3)=1/9, or 4.22 points per hit.
Scarabs: (2/3)*(5/6)=5/9, or 7.22 points per hit.
Pulse Weapons Wraiths: (1/2)*(1/3)=1/6, or 6.33 points per hit.
Scarabs: (2/3)*(5/6)=5/9, or 7.22 points per hit.
Heavy Bolter Wraiths: (1/2)*(1/3)=1/6, or 6.33 points per hit.
Scarabs: 2/3=2/3, or 8.67 points per hit.
Autocannon Wraiths: (2/3)*(1/3)*2=4/9, or 16.89 points per hit (with potential overkill).
Scarabs: (5/6)*2=5/3, or 21/67 points per hit (with potential overkill).
Right, I'm gonna stop here. It looks like Wraiths are slightly more durable, point for point, against most things.
But, if we compare 6 Wraiths (228 points) to 18 Scarabs (234 points-a 3% difference, about) OFFENSIVELY...
Wraiths have 18 attacks, at S6 AP-1, hitting on 3s.
Scarabs have 72 attacks, at S3 AP0, hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s at the worst.
Hitting is the same, so I'm reducing it down to 12 hits (Wraiths) and 48 hits (Scarabs).
Against GEQs:
Wraiths: 12*(5/6)*(5/6)=8.33 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/2)*(2/3)=16 wounds.
Against MEQs:
Wraiths: 12*(2/3)*(1/2)=4 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against TEQs:
Wraiths: 12*(2/3)*(1/3)=2.67 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/6)=2.67 wounds.
Against T5, 3+ models:
Wraiths: 12*(2/3)*(1/2)=4 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against T6, 3+ models:
Wraiths: 12*(1/2)*(1/2)=3 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against Rhinos (T7, 3+):
Wraiths: 12*(1/3)*(1/2)=2 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against Knights (T8, 3+):
Wraiths: 12*(1/3)*(1/2)=2 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against Land Raiders (T8, 2+):
Wraiths: 12*(1/3)*(1/3)=1.33 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/6)=2.67 wounds.
So Scarabs are actually a LOT better offensively, against most everything. ESPECIALLY tough things.
torblind wrote: How do you convert them? (I have done a few myself)
Can't seem to attach a picture, but I essentially used Warriors and added claws by using bits like Ork Power Klaws and such. There are tutorials on YouTube if you want to get a better idea.
So I just finished a major tournament, went 3W-3L. I had a tough road, with one of the highest SoS's in the tournament, and some bad draws at the worst of times. Would have tied for 13th out of 54 tables had my pylon rolled statistically average In the mission that cost me 13th, I faced a triple FW knight list, (one was the big one, not warhound sized though). Rolled 1 for my D6 pylon shots, CP rerolled it to 2 shots....... then rolled double 1's to hit. Needless to say I got tabled.
Taking away from it I am changing up my list in a few major ways. Due to how many superheavies/LoW were there, the region is limiting it to >30W/PL and a single LoW. So unfortunately the pylon is gone, but tbh it severely underperformed this tournament. It couldn't kill a swarmlord, or a dreadnaught with 4w left, or a stormraven in TWO turns. I would either roll 1-3 D6 shots, or miss with the shots I did get. I know its not statistical and my rolling was poor for it (made up for my other units) but I'm kinda glad I cant take it. Missing with it is so severely noticeable due to it being a quarter of your armies points. And since there wont be many big monsters/vehicles about I wont have to worry about losing its damage potential. In its defence it did put 54 wounds onto An'grath from 3 unsaved wounds in one volley.
Toholk - his D3 living metal came into play in 3 player rounds out of 6 games. I got back 3 each time but I found my TA was either at full wounds permanently or dead immediately. I also used his reroll on the seize twice and it failed, so overall I would prefer a more in-game relevant HQ. Also, its way more beneficial to CP reroll the roll off for 1st over the seize, just depends on what your opponent rolls.
Tomb Blades - performed quite well, happy with what they do. Always did stuff, in most games they were able to score and wipe out squads, in all but 2 games they made their points back and then some. I found them to be in combat a lot, and they are suprisingly durable, forced a black templars list to blow 2 or 3 cp to fight again to kill a single tomb blade. Having fly was super handy, as they spent the game RP'ing, falling back from combat and kiting away, blasting the units charging them, then overwatching and repeating ad infinitum. Only would have benefitted from scopes in one round of shooting in one game, so I'm happy I left them off. I am going to run them now with shadowlooms, as the 5++ would be really helpful. If the points are spare I will also chuck on shield-vanes, but in my new list I'm running 7 of them, 3 w/ vanes, 3 w/ looms and 1 with both so I have 4 of each in the squad. In terms of tesla or gauss, I'm really happy with the gauss, the AP -2 is very handy, and I found I was in rapid fire range a lot, and once you get into it, the damage goes off the charts.
Immortals - My MVP's. I had lightning crackling everywhere. I was rolling SUPER hot for this all tournament. averaging 24-26 out of 20 hits most volleys WITHOUT MWBD. Dropping Toholk in favour of an overlord for these guys. I realised last night, they are actually pretty mobile, as you can choose for the 2+ to hit/ 4+ tesla, or a 3+ to hit/ 5"+D6"+1" movement and still proc tesla on 6's due to MWBD. MWBD also means we have a semi effective cheap answer to flyers, as MWBD negates the hard to hit, giving them another viable target. Pumping out mass saves onto flyers isnt good for them, as they usually dont have a great armour save.
Scarabs - And here is the biggest change to my list (besides the pylon). Scarabs did well overall. In the games I needed to deny deepstrike they flooded the board and denied very effectively. In the games they needed to create a wall to stop nasty CC charging my shooters, they held the line stoically. In a ridiculous final game a single base stoop up against 2 rounds of 3 thunderhammers hammering away at them. (Poor space wolves were rolling badly that game). However, they die to focused fire too quickly. Having no save and facing LR after LR just mulched through them. Additionally, while they put out a bucketload of attacks, and wound everything in the game on 5's, they wound (almost) everything in the game on 5's . Their damage output just isn't up to standard, especially when you start spamming them in multiple large squads. Necrons are expensive, so every point has to be balanced in terms of durability vs offensive power, and I think too many scarabs doesn't fill out either role effectively.
Deceiver - His redeploy was handy, and he did manage to charge a flyer and MW it down, but the lack of a shooting attack is noticable. Still good, especially in scarab spam lists where you can just redeploy 18 - 27 scarab bases and take up half the board, but when you drop those numbers down and start to redeploy shooters into better vantage points, he becomes less effective. Sure you can use his trick to bait out bad placements from your opponents, but with fast cron lists, deploying to minimise an alphastrike by hiding usually is probably a better choice.
Tesseract Ark - Didn't dissapoint, probably killed way more than the pylon. The charge thing forced one opponent to blow a CP to charge it, and the fleshbane flamer is nasty on overwatch. Found it either stayed alive all game in the one spot or died pretty quickly. I think it will be more of a target priority if the pylon isn't around, but quantum shielding saved it before. I did fail a lot of QS however,(could not stop rolling 6's for everything except the pylon's D6 shots ). Second MVP of the tournament. The tesla was a nice addition, but only having 6 shots didn't help its cause much.
I built an alpha strike list, and tbh it cost me all three games. I have built a preliminary list that I will be taking to masters in a couple of months. It doesn't matter that much if I go first or second, obviously I would still like to go first but if I go second it will still negate alot of the alpha from the opposing armies list. I have also changed it based on what I experienced over the weekend and seeing what the new local meta is. I built to face lots of hordes, yet there was only 2 ork lists, 2 nid lists (one was a monster mash) and 2 guard lists in the entire comp.
I feel wraiths are worth the points over scarabs now. They have the same amount of wounds, yet they rock a 3++ and T5. I know smite spam will shred them, but i still have scarabs to soak/screen that. They also have S6, so they wound most things on 3's, scarabs only are better against T8, and even then wraiths have the -1ap. I think -1 rend is good for them as most CC threats have a 3++/4++ and you are pulling them off their 2+. Granted they lose 1 attack per base, but move faster, and can move through everything.
Nightbringer is due to the fact ive dropped so many scarabs. I plan to screen him with either the scarabs (giving him 29 wounds effectively) or the wraiths depending on what I have to go up against. Hits and wounds on 2+ in both shooting and melee, with a -4AP and D3/D6 damage, all the while spamming MW, and blows up on a 4+ as a final feth you lol.
Flayed ones start in DS, and can stay there until they are needed. Pair pretty well with the wraiths, as the wraiths can catch whatever the flayed ones want to eat. Just a good unit overall, and makes anyone think twice about fighting them.
Sentry pylon and Sentinel both give me deployment advantage along with the flayed ones, and still gives me heavy weaponry to fire at full power on my turn.
It's a balanced mix of shooting and melee, I found there were lots of CC armies that I was terrified of, but this list will stand up against them much easier, while also having more firepower overall than my previous one. It can deal with one big monster, hordes and elite armies, and every component is independent of the other, I still have great board control, area denial. And it plays like I have always loved to play my crons, super fast and in your face.
I think everything you say makes good sense. And I'm keeping your proposed list for my own (ab)use!
Regarding the Deceiver, yeah, its a great ability, but its just hard to synergize well with the units you would like to bring up. It always comes at the cost of the strengths you would normally play to in a necron list (Warriors left alone with no support and good alpha strike only possible if you scrap all other plans and commit 1000+ points)
Have you fielded the Nightbringer before? He is awesome, I'm just looking for the best way to deploy him, and what you say sounds good.
I also liked the wraith/flayed one synergy, had never thought about that before, but should be playable
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I own a Gauss pylon, but no Sentry pylons, so I was sad to see its lackluster performance. Guess I'll just have to keep throwing more money at GW.
But I knew it already, a good necron list has typically been about volume of dice, which is great, it reduces the impact of poor rolling (this was part of the strength of ghost arks full of warriors in 7th, that many dice never roll catastrophicly)
However a few 1's for the gauss pylon is not particularly unlikely, but it ruins that 500 pt investment that your survival hinges on be.
So yeah, the gauss pylon would be great in pairs or 3, so yea well above 2000 pt games
Nice read Klowny, I too had an up hill battle this weekend.
I ended up with 2W - 3L due to being paired with the dirtiest list at the tournament (120 Rattlings, 30 Mortars, 40 conscripts, an Assassin and other units I can't remember). Lost that due to it being KP, all my cards were on my opponents side of the table. I got tabled by him Turn 3. It was an okay game, definitely felt like it was the worst list to go up against.
I then went up against a IK and Warhound. My least favorite game tbh. His Warhound was positioned in such a way that it always held 2 objects I needed, his IK had that 18" flamer that destroyed majority of my Scarabs, Immos, Deathmarks and TBs over 5 turns. I did lose my 2 Triarch Stalkers, Annihilation Barge and Sentinel on turns 2-5 so that really made the game difficult. I was able to get the IK to 6 wounds and the Warhound from 35 to 8 due to how many MW my Deathmarks got in RF and a unit of Scarabs constantly charging them for 3 turns.
The organiser stated that no more 30w+ Models due to nearly everyone having difficulty with the WH and the Rulespack stated before hand that anything over 25PL want allowed but it was the guys 1st 8th ed. Games so the organisers left him due to him fielding only 2 units.
My run down;
Overlord - did pretty well, he was mainly there for MWBD the Immortals, didn't disappoint, and to Heroic Intervene if needed. It happened only once though so I think I'll drop the Scythe in future and give him the Hyperphase sword in future to save points.
Cryptek - preformed pretty well actually. He buffed my TBs with 4+ RP which made them stupidity resilient. My opponents didn't have a good time seeing 6 of my 7 TBs die then have 5 of them come back on 4+. Especially during KP games. The 5+ invul helped my Immortals a lot as well, he wasn't targeted that much in the game due to me hiding him pretty well in Terrain. Would definitely bring 2 of them to buff 2 squads of TBs instead of the One Lord/Tesla Immortals combo. The 5+ invul would be wasted though so not sure.
Immortals - Probably my MVP other then my pairs of Triarch Stalkers. Them in Terrain is sick, 2+ save made them so resident and equipped with 4+ RP made sure they survived all my games. Besides my last 2 games of course. I was getting about 31-37 hits on average which translated into around 13-15 wounds on anything T5 and below. They only targeted T6 and up Models when there was a threat and Ave me 5-8 wounds on average. Everyone hated them more then my TBs so they got fired at quite a lot but tanked majority of Everything they got hit with.
Deathmarks - These lads right here are such good units to take. Deepstriking on Objectives when I needed them, acted like a distraction for my opponent which caused them to open their army which caused my opponents to re-think tactics. Having a unit as Characters killers was great while the other unit was mainly used to get MW on units that had wound profiles or units that would have eaten me in CC. My 2 units of Deathmarks killed 5 Rattlings squads, 8 Commissar's, 1 unit of several Custodes, RoBo Curryman (Twice!), The Assassin and Cawl through out the tournament, got me gak loads of Objectives, Line Breaker and Slay the Warlord in all my games bar the last 2. I would happily take them again. Just wished they were 33% cheaper so that bringing more would be possible.
Triarch Stalkers - I thought bringing 2 might have been useless but omg was I wrong. Having the THG targeting T9+ units did quite well when paired with my Sentinel, the Particle Shredder preformed slightly better due to 6 shots which downed around 3-4 models in each T6 or lower units as well as buffing my TBs and Immortals. Because I had 2 positioned quite differently (THG was usually in a corner behind Terrain for better save, while the PS was closer but also in Terrain). Both of them were shot equally, the PS probably died more due to being closer but it meant my THG was mostly untouched so the Sentinel preformed pretty well with the help of Re-rolling 1s.
Tomb Blades - Ah, my most reliable unit. Constantly taking down units with T5 or lower, always getting into RF range, tanking bucket loads of shots and CC threats. They were amazing tbh. Having 3 with 3+ save and 4 with 5+ invul really worked for me. They survived every game besides my last 2. They were easily the most shoot at unit but because of T5, always being in cover for 2+ saves, having the option of 5+ invul and them being buffed to 4+ RP made them stupidity resilient and I loved it. Fun fact; I now made a Mortal enemy who swears that he hates Tomb Blades more then any other Necron unit thanks to me .He downed them from 7 to 1 with all his army shooting at them and 5 of the 6 came back with 4+ RP and fuqqed up all his units, Im pretty sure he would have flipped the table on me if non of his units were on the table. Literally kept 1 unit alive just because of that.
Tomb Sentinel - The S10 gun was the bane of the majority of my opponents. It pretty much did what I wanted. Deepstriking at an enemy, used the Triarch Stalker to allow re-roll of 1s, got about 4 shots on average which became 6-9 wounds on average and CC said Target and fuqqed gak up. It only lasted 2-3 turns in most of my games due to focus fire but it preformed so well in each games that I feel like they should nearly be in everyone's list. Against the Warhound it only got 1 3dmg wound through the T9 35w Titan and got 1 shot the following turn but besides that game I felt it preformed well enough to secure a future place in my lists. I am not always going to be against a WH so that battle just went over my head.
Scarabs - preformed pretty okay. I went up against no Pysker lists at all so no smite spam soaking. Mostly used them for Anti-charge, Deepstrike and holding things up. Like Klowny said, there cheap but don't preform all that well in CC due to no rending . I feel like their role is to stop your more important units from being caught into CC and to use them as an "ambush" unit when the opponent gets close. They did what I wanted them to do but I think 2 units of 8 is enough tbh. Maybe 3 units would do we to but it's some-what situational
Annihilation Barge - probably the worst unit in my army, Tesla Destructors did quite well in hitting and wounding but because of no rending a lot of wounds got saves. I only brought it due to my Tesseract Ark currently being repaired from a nasty fall it was subjected in. It soak quite a lot of wounds tbf and got targeted more then the Stalkers but other then that I wasn't really sold on it.
The funniest moment was probably when the Warhound shot it's laser at the THG. I didn't get my save and he roll 2d6 damage which gave him 8 wounds. The Triarch Stalker obviously ignored all Wounds due to QS. He called BS and asked a guy next to him (another Necron player) and an organiser to clarify the situation. Both them to burst out laughing saying that only the IK flamer will be able to hurt them. He kinda went salty after that and Destroyed the TA and Annihilation Barge with the Flamer. He did waste his other shots thanks to QS though.
Overall I had a good time. came 9th out of 35, with being the highest ranking Necron army and Xeno race on the top 10 board. Won best sportsman ship for always being optimistic and friendly and got a nice GW post cared with narrative-esque entry on my Triarch Stalker being hit with the Warhound Lasers.
I am not sure what I would field in the future but I think I'll use this list as a catalyst for the rest of my army building unit Chapter Approved is released and our Codex.
I think the Deciever will be put to better use if we get some fun toys in our codex. I haven't fielded the nightbringer properly, only in a narrative game. So I'm excited to see how it goes against competitive lists.
The FO are expensive and fragile, while the wraiths are not fragile. You can soak overwatch on the wraiths, get them in, then get the FO in, then fall back past the combat to screen the combat from potential charges in your next turn (potentially).
Awesome reads from both of you guys (not done yet!)
Just a quick comment - Tomb Blades lack the "Infantry" keyword, so each model must be 50% obscured and in cover. Was that tricky? Or easy for your opponent to get around?
I am not sure what I would field in the future but I think I'll use this list as a catalyst for the rest of my army building unit Chapter Approved is released and our Codex.
Could it be that soaking fire actually makes your AB worthwhile? It's fast, can shoot when it advances, it could hop around on objectives, and is great against hordes, and looks scary, and it's soft, so small arms fire doesn't feel wasted on it. Potentially sparing your Stalkers from that fire, which could be a nice thing?
Interesting list Klowny, not a single duplicate unit. It's a very elite oriented one.
I will actually attend a team tournament (1500 p) in the beginning of November with the highlander restriction (no duplicate units unless you have picked every other unit from a Battlefield role, e.g. I can't have 3 units of Immortals I need to pick Immortals, Warriors, Immortals).
The restrictions in the tournament are:
- One detachment
- Max 100 models
- Highlander
- No codex Stratagems or Chapter Tactics
- No lords of war
- No named characters
- No FW
Crazy right! Oh well, it's a really fun tournament and it will be intereresting to see what people bring. It's also not a WAAC tournament.
I have made a list that i will playtest a few games the coming weekend:
1500 point Spearhead:
1 CCB w gauss
10 Immortals, tesla
5 Deathmarks
1 Stalker, THGC
6 Wraiths
6 Scarabs
3 Heavy Destroyers
1 Annihilation Barge
1 Doomsday Ark
If you compare it to a Tesseract Ark it's better to get one of those. I would imagine that if I had the TA it would do exactly what you said above and better due to the 5+ invul, more wounds and it's weapons are more situational. Plus, 2 Tesla Cannons instead of 1.
The Anni Barge wasn't bad at all, it was just the "worse" unit in my list Imo. It did kill 2 models from the Custodes, a few Primaris Marines and a few conscripts. It also did 3 wounds to a stormraven which was needed. I did use it for objective holding and it was usually bubbled with Scarabs with the TS and also infront of the TS as well as an extra CC shield
It take soak a few wounds and lasted around 2-4 turns on average. But, I really wanted to use the TA be it's so much beefier and would have dealt with a few things better due to ig Fleshbane flamer, Assault-esque Gauss Cannon and slightly worse but more shots THG gun. Maybe I was disappointed because it was the TA but it did it's job just wasn't good agaisnt units with 3-4+ saves. Killed a good few infantry and distracted a few units so wasn't a complete let down.
Thanks for letting me re-think what I said. I do feel like my list was a good list for "all around" play due to the speed of my units, synergy and overall toughness.
Anything you think I should change Torblind or anyone else for that matter?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1500 point Spearhead:
1 CCB w gauss
10 Immortals, tesla
5 Deathmarks
1 Stalker, THGC
6 Wraiths
6 Scarabs
3 Heavy Destroyers
1 Annihilation Barge
1 Doomsday Ark
Your list looks good to me. A few things though.
Why the Gauss Cannon on the CCB? If you move you will be hitting on 3s? I think the TC is probably better if you want a mobile CCB unless you plan on being stationary?
I would beef up those Deathmarks. 5 won't do that much damage. You would want 8-10 of them to be as effective as possible. Also, try Deepstrike them in Cover or Terrain for +1 save.
Because you already have 3 Heavy Destroyers with S9 -4 D6 shots why do you need to THGC on the Stalker? The Heavy Ds already re-roll 1s and not sure what you want to buff up besides the DDA? I personally prefer the Particle Shredder due to it having 4 extra shots (Heavy 6 vs Heavy 2) even if it's losing 12" range you can just move it 10" up and have a -1 to hit and only 2" difference?
It is kind of a balls that you can't bring multiple units otherwise I would drop those 3 Heavy Ds for another DDA or Triarch Stalkers.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Interesting list Klowny, not a single duplicate unit. It's a very elite oriented one.
I will actually attend a team tournament (1500 p) in the beginning of November with the highlander restriction (no duplicate units unless you have picked every other unit from a Battlefield role, e.g. I can't have 3 units of Immortals I need to pick Immortals, Warriors, Immortals).
The restrictions in the tournament are:
- One detachment
- Max 100 models
- Highlander
- No codex Stratagems or Chapter Tactics
- No lords of war
- No named characters
- No FW
Crazy right! Oh well, it's a really fun tournament and it will be intereresting to see what people bring. It's also not a WAAC tournament.
I have made a list that i will playtest a few games the coming weekend:
1500 point Spearhead:
1 CCB w gauss
10 Immortals, tesla
5 Deathmarks
1 Stalker, THGC
6 Wraiths
6 Scarabs
3 Heavy Destroyers
1 Annihilation Barge
1 Doomsday Ark
Thanks dude, TBH most of my meta is quite elite, I hardly ever felt outnumbered with my old list, and that had less units than this one, and less firepower and CC threats! And due to how big the pylon is it hardly ever took fire, as I was smart about eliminating as much lascannon threats ASAP, so most armies fire was focused away from it and onto my army. Even if my meta shifts more horde based now the big units have been taken away I still am not too concerned about being outnumbered, as my CC units are either high wounds and toughness (the nightbringer has 29 effective wounds!) for the most part, and my shooty units are either long ranged and durable in cover, or fast and durable. Seriously tomb blades are really, really good!
I feel if you build to survive an alpha strike list, build redundancy and can take on hordes, vehicles and CC you have a good well rounded list. Obviously you may have a tough time against hardcore horde/shooty/cc lists, but more often that not if you play right you can do well.
Just a little thing Odrankt, I dont think its the lack of a rend that makes scarabs only average, its the S3 that really hurts them. Wraiths are S6 so they are wounding most things on 3, with 3 attacks each. Sure they lose 6 attacks compared to 6 scarab bases, but they outdamage them at almost every Toughness and Save characteristic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I personally found the tesla on my TA didn't do that much, I feel you need weight of dice for tesla to be effective, I'm not going to change mine due to it being modelled with tesla, and it being the cheaper option. The case for tesla on TB is a different story, and really comes down to how much tesla you have in your army. It is better suited to immortals due to MWBD (if TB somehow can get a way in our codex to get this.... holy hell will they be terrifying) and the gauss is actually in RF fire alot, and its scary in overwatch, although not as scary as tesla. 18 hits on average for that lol. From overwatch...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the nastiest list that tabled everyone until the top table was a Falchion Super Heavy battle tank (crazy huge FW tank with stupid dakka) azreal, darkshroud and 3 flyers. Everything was -1 to hit with a 4++
I my second tabling was against a custodes list, he rolled 5++ for days on his venerable LR's, and all his custodes were hitting on 2+ rerolling, wounding on 3's rerolling all due to guilliman. Celestine flew up and flamed the pylon to death after it took 8 lascannon shots to the face :(
There was some super cheese going, couple of revenant wraithknights, supremacy armour suits from the tau, heaps of huge tanks, a triple greater deamon list, lots of an'grath's. Titans everywhere.
I only lost the third game due to being a perfect storm for him and the worst for me. He got first turn, it was cloak and shadows (so -1 to hit if over 18" away) and dawn of war, and he had a black templars army. So T1 charges wiped alot of my forces, my pylon couldn't kill his dreadnought. That ended up a minor loss, but I think had it been the long board I would have taken a victory aswell. Im happy with my performance overall, and way more excited over masters in a few months due to the list ill be running. I hate static gunlines, which was what my last army was, not interactive at all when I got the maps I wanted. This list is way less reliant on getting a good board and getting first turn, two things that are very unreliable.
Just a little thing Odrankt, I dont think its the lack of a rend that makes scarabs only average, its the S3 that really hurts them. Wraiths are S6 so they are wounding most things on 3, with 3 attacks each. Sure they lose 6 attacks compared to 6 scarab bases, but they outdamage them at almost every Toughness and Save characteristic.
Ah,sorry. I misread what you said.
The Scarabs for me did 16 wounds on the Warhound over 3 turns of fighting. If we get a stratagem to give them -1 rend they would be OP as fuq.
Hopefully we will get a way to give Anni barges -1 on their Tesla as well. Immortals would be super OP if they had -1 on Tesla with MWBD proxying them on 5s (think of all the -1 hits...).
Yeah, i mean against a warhound they are probably one of the better models to fight it, however, against almost every other opponent wraiths pull up better in a fight. Remember wraiths will do more damage, and take and survive much more than scarabs. Still run some for DS denial and board control, but maybe not so many.
Giving -1 to tesla, even with a stratagem is too broken to fly, if they did that no one would ever take gauss as there would literally be no point. You would need to give basic gauss D3 and then that becomes broken too...
An ignores cover stratagem would be nice, more situationally better and fairer for everybawdy.
Klowny I feel bad for you man for all the cheddar you dealt with...
Come to Ireland if you want to 40k, not as many spammy lists unless you go to Dublin (worst area for 40k gaming due to most being fuq-tards) :p
There was only 3 spammy list out of 35 so it wasn't to bad but my 1st game was against the 2nd worse list and I fared okay with 11-14. Would have been 14-14 but he mortared my Scarabs out fo existence... If I also discard King Slayer I would have gotten object 3 which would have ended with 12-14. Not much difference but I know now to discard cards that I can't get for the future.
What would you have done differently if you knew the kind of lists you were going up against Klowny?
-1 to Test might be broken but so are Rattlings at only 7pts a model, 48" range, being snippers and 6+ to wound being Mortal wounds... If they gave us a <Dynasty> like Admech got <Forge World> for specific army buffs and Warlord traits it would be good.
I also never run Gauss anymore unless on Tomb Blades, I prefer extra hits over worse saves if going again +5 or worse saves.
JNAProductions wrote: Wraith: T5, 3+ Invuln, 3 wounds a pop, for 38 points.
Scarabs: T3, 6+ armour, 3 wounds a pop, for 13 points.
All calculations are going to be done AFTER hitting-they're both hit the same, so no need to calculate that in.
Lasguns Wraiths: (1/3)*(1/3)=1/9, or 4.22 points per hit.
Scarabs: (1/2)*(5/6)=5/12, or 5.42 points per hit.
Boltguns Wraiths: (1/3)*(1/3)=1/9, or 4.22 points per hit.
Scarabs: (2/3)*(5/6)=5/9, or 7.22 points per hit.
Pulse Weapons Wraiths: (1/2)*(1/3)=1/6, or 6.33 points per hit.
Scarabs: (2/3)*(5/6)=5/9, or 7.22 points per hit.
Heavy Bolter Wraiths: (1/2)*(1/3)=1/6, or 6.33 points per hit.
Scarabs: 2/3=2/3, or 8.67 points per hit.
Autocannon Wraiths: (2/3)*(1/3)*2=4/9, or 16.89 points per hit (with potential overkill).
Scarabs: (5/6)*2=5/3, or 21/67 points per hit (with potential overkill).
Right, I'm gonna stop here. It looks like Wraiths are slightly more durable, point for point, against most things.
But, if we compare 6 Wraiths (228 points) to 18 Scarabs (234 points-a 3% difference, about) OFFENSIVELY...
Wraiths have 18 attacks, at S6 AP-1, hitting on 3s.
Scarabs have 72 attacks, at S3 AP0, hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s at the worst.
Hitting is the same, so I'm reducing it down to 12 hits (Wraiths) and 48 hits (Scarabs).
Against GEQs:
Wraiths: 12*(5/6)*(5/6)=8.33 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/2)*(2/3)=16 wounds.
Against MEQs:
Wraiths: 12*(2/3)*(1/2)=4 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against TEQs:
Wraiths: 12*(2/3)*(1/3)=2.67 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/6)=2.67 wounds.
Against T5, 3+ models:
Wraiths: 12*(2/3)*(1/2)=4 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against T6, 3+ models:
Wraiths: 12*(1/2)*(1/2)=3 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against Rhinos (T7, 3+):
Wraiths: 12*(1/3)*(1/2)=2 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against Knights (T8, 3+):
Wraiths: 12*(1/3)*(1/2)=2 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/3)=5.33 wounds.
Against Land Raiders (T8, 2+):
Wraiths: 12*(1/3)*(1/3)=1.33 wounds.
Scarabs: 48*(1/3)*(1/6)=2.67 wounds.
So Scarabs are actually a LOT better offensively, against most everything. ESPECIALLY tough things.
Yeah I was in the same boat as you mate, on paper scarabs really do look the business. Hence why I ran 27 of them in my recent tournament. And mathhammer might make them on average better overall, but then you have to look at the larger picture.
I don't think its likely that 18 scarabs are going to get into combat with many things unmolested, sure they are fast, but they die when focused down, in combat and shooting. So those numbers are best case scenario, getting 18 large scarab bases all within 1" of a model within 1" is hard to do. I found that mine were strung along due to being spread out to deny DS and I was consolidating into combat and killing off those stragglers before I swung due to getting charged. And while they do put out a lot of attacks, and do wound T8 better than wraiths, realistically most of the time you are fighting things T4-5. The majority of armies sit in that bracket, the bracket wraiths happen to be better at killing. I just was very underwhelmed by their in game, real world performance over a number of games facing a number of different armies. They lack ap, which helps a lot, and lack a good toughness. They didn't hold up so well against genestealers, just a speedbump for a few player rounds. Stealers mostly fell to tesla and gauss from my TB. They didn't die to beserkers, but those beserkers were down to a single model in one unit, and a 4 man unit, but they also didn't do a whole bunch of damage, I killed off one and then 2 from the other squad.
Like I said, I was really enthusiastic about them before the tournament, and they still are very viable, but not as offensive damage dealers. As board controllers, objective runners and screens they are very cheap for what they offer, but not as killers. We have better tools in every department to kill stuff with, so they should be used defensively, allowing the more efficient killers to do their job safely. If you use them offensively you put your much more expensive units in danger for the most part.
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Odrankt wrote: Klowny I feel bad for you man for all the cheddar you dealt with...
Come to Ireland if you want to 40k, not as many spammy lists unless you go to Dublin (worst area for 40k gaming due to most being fuq-tards) :p
There was only 3 spammy list out of 35 so it wasn't to bad but my 1st game was against the 2nd worse list and I fared okay with 11-14. Would have been 14-14 but he mortared my Scarabs out fo existence... If I also discard King Slayer I would have gotten object 3 which would have ended with 12-14. Not much difference but I know now to discard cards that I can't get for the future.
What would you have done differently if you knew the kind of lists you were going up against Klowny?
-1 to Test might be broken but so are Rattlings at only 7pts a model, 48" range, being snippers and 6+ to wound being Mortal wounds... If they gave us a <Dynasty> like Admech got <Forge World> for specific army buffs and Warlord traits it would be good.
I also never run Gauss anymore unless on Tomb Blades, I prefer extra hits over worse saves if going again +5 or worse saves.
I actually loved it dude, so many awesome armies, and its cool to see the big boys on the table!! I wasn't scared of most of them, i was more scared of the DE lists with dark lances coming out the wazoo. THAT is scary haha. Just knowing how badly my pylon rolled a stalker would have been beneficial for it, but realistically I would have taken an overlord for my tesla immortals, some looms for my TB. It wasnt so much my list as my rolling for my pylon that cost me those two tablings, had i killed the LR's against the custodes, and the large FW knight I would have tabled both those armies and been near the very top. Just bad dice rolling tbh.
Im not salty at all, I built a list around the pylon, and it just didn't perform to expectations. The list has serious power, its still very viable and competitive and theres not much I would change if I had another go at that tournament. Had my dice been hotter I would have been in a much better final ranking but thats the price you pay if you rely too heavily on one thing and don't diversify your list. I also would note that I only got the long map once, the one that I can just put a wall of scarabs up and shut them off for a few turns. Having that would have been beneficial in every circumstance, but it was mostly Dawn of War maps.
So from now on I dont want to build an alpha strike, as its way too reliant on first turn and in our case, a good map to ensure survivability. Alpha strikes are good when you can manipulate your drops to get the +1, something we cant do (efficiently), so I find half the time our drop count pushes us out of contention of going first. I feel if you plan and deploy to go second, not only will you not be disheartened that you didnt get first turn, but youll also be in a better position to survive their dakka and strike back. That way getting first turn is a bonus!!!
In an interesting note, there was another necron list, it too had a pylon. He had much more immortals and HQ's, whereas I had heaps of scarabs and tomb blades and vehicles. In that case it was actually beneficial to go second, as its basically whatever pylon deepstrikes first dies lol. Also the main cannon on the pylon cant actually hurt QS vehicles. It was a matchup I was hoping I drew but never got. (we finished within 4 places of each other incidentally).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and I actually grew up in Ireland Odrankt
Odrankt wrote: Your list looks good to me. A few things though.
Why the Gauss Cannon on the CCB? If you move you will be hitting on 3s? I think the TC is probably better if you want a mobile CCB unless you plan on being stationary?
I would beef up those Deathmarks. 5 won't do that much damage. You would want 8-10 of them to be as effective as possible. Also, try Deepstrike them in Cover or Terrain for +1 save.
Because you already have 3 Heavy Destroyers with S9 -4 D6 shots why do you need to THGC on the Stalker? The Heavy Ds already re-roll 1s and not sure what you want to buff up besides the DDA? I personally prefer the Particle Shredder due to it having 4 extra shots (Heavy 6 vs Heavy 2) even if it's losing 12" range you can just move it 10" up and have a -1 to hit and only 2" difference?
It is kind of a balls that you can't bring multiple units otherwise I would drop those 3 Heavy Ds for another DDA or Triarch Stalkers.
I like Gauss on CCB since 3 tesla shots hardly do anything while with 2 gauss shots you have at least a chance to kill some expensive elite models. It's also more of a threat.
I agree about the Deathmarks, I would like to have a unit of 10.
The Stalker is there to basically add some heavy shooting. There's nothing else I can take thanks to the Highlander restrictions. It also helps my other shooting units.
I've actually never tried the Particle shredder on the Stalker, but on paper it looks underwhelming for what you pay.
I agree with Klowny that the A Barge is pretty meh when it comes to damage output, but it's a bit like the CCB, it compensates that with other qualities.
Sadly Necrons have many units like that and really no units that puts out massive amounts of hard dakka.
My rolls weren't that good either. I remember in one game I had the Sentinel roll a 4 on it's D6 and all 4 hots were 1s lol. Luckily the Triarch Stalker gave them re-rolling 1s and actually got 3 successful hits.
It is like i said in a few posts. You can do the average and how everything 'should" turn out but dice are random so I just usually built the list I want. I stopped buildings Alpha Strikes for the past few weeks. I rather built my list for 2nd turn, and deploy right to back of my deployment then built for alpha strikes and have everything in my enemies reach.
Example. It is better to have your Triarch Stalker on your back board, move up to 10" to were you "wanted" to deploy and have a -1 to hit rather then deploying it at the line of your deployment, hoping for the alpha and then watch the enemy get units in range and shoot the fuq out of it.
Targeting relay works even if you miss your TS shots but it can't work if it's destroyed.
Defensive crons is the way I played it it worked. I mainly lost my games due to them all requiring Objectives and the Cards. If it was Eternal War games I would have won 4 instead of 2. But, them the breaks I suppose.
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Oh and I actually grew up in Ireland Odrankt
Mitchelstown, Co. Cork. We made cheese
Say what? I am from Cork myself! Grew up in Ovens just South-West off of Ballincollig and now live in Wilton! Small world eh :p
You should come back sometime! Great community of gamers for both tournaments and local Wargaming. P.S. we actually got a Warhammer shop in Town (Cork City) now just opposite the Bus station and it's actually ran by a nice fella.
All Irish are we? That necron green just draws you in, doesn't it
@adressing me: I don't have much more to add, playing lists is much better than listening to arm chair generals like me at this point
Automatically Appended Next Post: .. But I love seeing deathmarks and tomb blades in tourney lists, nice to see the that there can be some competitive variety
They don't call Ireland the Emerald Isle for nothing lol
Tbh Tor, pretty much everything has a role in our army. Scarabs are good at denying CC and Deepstrike, can be good for ambushing enemies if they get close, grab objectives and are probably the best for taking on T8 units like Imperial Knights and such.
Wraiths are beefed up Scarabs in the sense that they can take on anything lower then T7 and because of the +3 invul they pretty much hold up anything in CC. I would image a unit of 6 could hold up good CC threats then use your Scarabs to 'swarm the combat (don't join in) to prevent your opponent from falling back and the Scarabs will then eat up Smite spam instead of the Wraiths.
Flayed Ones (while expensive) would be good for joining Wraiths in CC if against something till T4 or lower. What the wraiths are good at is holding up units via the 3+ invul then the FO are good at mulching Everything due to re-rolling wound rolls.
Deathmarks can pretty much drop anywhere they want and if your opponent is DS something then you can surprise his unit by Deepstriking with them. Fun note; an opponent did DS some Terminators on my side of the field, I deepstruck my Deaths in, got my free shots and killed bar 2. Was funny and impressive.
Tomb Blades are Immos on Speed and they suit Gauss better then any other models we have due to their speed and toughness. There also pretty customise able so they can nearly be anything you want them to be.
Any list can be viable my friend it just depends on your overall tactics, list, opponent, game type and if your opponent is a douchebag that will do douchebag things or be fair and give you pointers as you go along. That is why I won best sportsman ship cause I was helping people kill my units and giving them tips on how to deal with Necrons at the end of the game. It's nice to be nice you know
BillyN831 wrote: What's the best anti tank options for the necrons? Thanks.
Depends on the Toughness of the enemy unit.
In terms of Strength it would go like this;
Triarch Stalker w/ Particle Shredder - Heavy 6 S7 -1 D D3
Triarch Stalker w/ Heat Ray - Heavy 2 S8 -4 D D6 Triarch Stalker w/ Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon - Heavy 2 S9 -4 D D6
I personally compare Tomb Blades w/ Gauss to normal Destroyers. If I can afford the Destroyers I usually go with tomb blades in and out of tournament play. Same toughness, better movement, more shots at the same Strength and range just a little worse, can have more in a unit making it easier to bring units back and don't look as strong as the Destroyer model so your opponent might ignore them faster.
You welcome on the break-downs. I only wish to help my fellow Phaerons out with their Dynasties.
BillyN831 wrote:What's the best anti tank options for the necrons? Thanks.
In terms of strength, the gauss pylon is the best anti tank we have, followed by any of the D6 weapons, which are the heat ray sentry pylon and the Tesseract Ark, with the Tesseract ark winning out due to its survivability. After that it depends on what you like laying with, everything has its place.
Odrankt wrote:
BillyN831 wrote: What's the best anti tank options for the necrons? Thanks.
Depends on the Toughness of the enemy unit.
In terms of Strength it would go like this;
Triarch Stalker w/ Particle Shredder - Heavy 6 S7 -1 D D3
Triarch Stalker w/ Heat Ray - Heavy 2 S8 -4 D D6 Triarch Stalker w/ Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon - Heavy 2 S9 -4 D D6
Tesseract Ark w/ two Tesla Cannons - same as the annihilation barges
Tesseract Ark Singularity Chambers 3rd Weapon profile - Heavy D6 S8 -4 D D6
Monolith Particle Whip - Heavy 6 S8 -2 D3
Heavy Destroyer - Heavy 1 S9 -4 D D6
Lychguard w/ Scythes - 2 attacks per model at S5+2 (7) -4 D2
Doomsday Ark - (full power) Heavy D3 S10 -5 D D6, (Low power) Heavy D3 S8 -2 D D3
Canoptek Tomb Sentinel - Heavy D6 S10 -4 D 3
Sentry Pylon w/ Heat Ray (best option) - Heavy 2 S12 -5 D D6
Gauss Pylon - Macro D6 S16 -5 D D3+6
Anything else I am missing lads?
You have the sentry pylon heat ray but the damage profile of the gauss exterminator there Odrankt
Cmdr_Sune wrote:I really appreciate the tournament reports and the unit by unit briefings. Excellent work. I've learned so much.
Who could have thought that Tomb blades would be found in competetive Necron lists due to their point costs.
People are also warming up more to Wraiths and I agree. They are quite solid.
Keep them reports coming!
Yeah they are expensive, and initially in a lot of my practice games I was being too aggressive with them and they were getting wiped quickly, however you have to play carefully with them, but they do tank a surprising amount of damage, and put out so much in return.
I have my first masters practice match next week, will give an idea of how my list works in practice after that!
Thanks Klowny. I actually meant to use the Gauss Exterminator but my phone has a lot of the names pre-saved and usually auto-corrects them... The Praetorians are definitely out for me now... Was nice knowing ye guys.... Lol
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I have my first masters practice match next week, will give an idea of how my list works in practice after that!
May I ask what a Master's match is? Like, are you doing a Master's course in college/uni and have Warhammer tiers via your course level or are you a top player that got granted a "master" of 40k? Sounds kind of epic tbh.
I personally think the heat ray is better in almost every circumstance than the GE. Remember when they drop in they are at -1 to hit, so if there is no flyers in the army you are facing the GE is hitting on 5's. The worst the D6 shot melta is firing is -4, and it should have more shots on average. Just my personal preference, I'm running both for masters I think.
nah masters over here is where the big boys of the state bring their hardest lists. Gonna be rough, hoping I can do well. We will see!
It's the range that gets me tbh, fair enough at 36" it's pretty much better then Heavy Gauss Cannons and what not but S12 is nothing to laugh about. However, hitting on 5+ is quite bad if you do Deepstrike...
I suppose if your deep striking then range isn't an issue. The Heat Ray is basically a Melta gun... And doing d6 shots is better then a standard 2. I guess it depends on your meta. The real question is this though. What load out would you use to protect your tomb world?
That sounds like fun man. What are you gonna bring? I would almost suggest a full QS spam list with 2 max Immortals with Tesla for maximum output of shots.
Do you think several Sypders with Fab Claws could work for QS spam lists?
Cmdr_Sune wrote: I like Gauss on CCB since 3 tesla shots hardly do anything while with 2 gauss shots you have at least a chance to kill some expensive elite models. It's also more of a threat.
That extra threat doesn't mean as much if you can't hit anything.
The CCB is always going to be moving. Assault weapons are more useful for mobile units than Heavy.
IMO sentry pylons are nowhere near as durable or survivable as their big brother, so holding them in deepstrike and dropping in where and when you want them is very handy, ensuring you are shooting at max strength (or as close to it as possible). They dont have QS remember, so if you are up against a nasty list that has lots of big guns its preferential to hold them in DS. If they dont, well then its a lost endeavour most of the time as they will not have much to shoot at
A QS spam list wont deal with hordes effectively, which is necessary for a strong list. Spam is good if you have a broken unit that you can exploit, but unfortunately we dont. Even spam lists have hard counters. This is a solid beta strike list and durable enough to survive an alpha. Good board control, fast and has more CC and shooty dakka than my last list.
How else do we counter flyers? or deny our big guns getting shot off the board before we get to use them? I dont have the money to buy multiple TAatm and I'm never buying chinacast again (atrocious quality) so its either GA pylons or tesla for flyers, and DS for denial.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey guys, just had a really nasty thought. It wont work well until the codex drops and we get an invuln save relic (fingers crossed so hard for this). But if we do, you take the CCB, screen with wraiths or scarabs (points dependent) and run it up the board to get into position.
You drop in your deathmarks into cover, get their normal volley off and then next round they get MWBD, so they hit on 2's proc MW on 5's.
I've decided to drop my FO in my list for these buggers, still DS, so kept safe, can retaliate against DS threats better, and have more purpose during the game. And pump out MW, which are pretty nasty.
What do you people think about the MWBD on the deathmarks?
The Sentry Pylon may not be as powerful as the Gauss Pylon but they are very cheap for the amount of power they provide. E.g. 1 Renegade & Heretics Laser Destroyer cannon is 78pts with 4+ WS, Heavy 1 S12 -4 D D6. So for 2 of them it would cost 156pts to get the same profile and power as the Sentry Pylon with the Gauss Exterminator which cost 8pts cheaper. Granted that the laser Destroyer can do extra D6 damage depending on what it rolls.
Yeah I know they don't have QS but with T7 should let them survive a few turns if not focused fired
Your new list looks good man, lots of mobility. Looking forward to how the Flayed Ones preform. I do feel like you should try fit a Triarch Stalker if possible because the re-rolling 1s really helped my Sentinel out. Especially when I rolled 4 1s on my hit rolls. Also surprised by no Cryptek. 4+ RP on the Tomb Blades made them twice as resilient due to having a better chance of getting them back. I presume your Scarabs will bodyguard your night bringer for the most part?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Speaking of Deathmarks, a guy at the tournament who is somewhat close to the spoiler scene told me that Deathmarks will be able to do 2 damage instead of 1 for all it's wound rolls to make up for it's points while keeping the Mortal wounds on 6+. Take it with a pinch of salt as he didn't go into too much detail but it made me feel like DAs will be even better then before.
Based on my games I am not sure if I want Max Squads or min squads of Deathmarks.
Max Squads give - better survivability, more chance of RP going off, high volume of fire.
Min Squads - gives you more more ways of Deepstriking, can Deepstrike with enemy units so you can use that as a way to prevent your opponent from Deepstriking I to go positions. Better chance at getting line breaker, more objective securing and you can use your 1st few deployment as them so while you technically deployed nothing your opponent has so you have a better way of countering what they have.
I think in future I will probably run 1 fun squad of 10 and 2-4 squads of 5-6 per unit. Them, plus Sentry Pylons and Tomb Sentinel is 4-6 drops that don't actually appear on the table giving you the upper hand in deployment.
Kind of sad you aren't using FO Klowny, was looking forward to you report on them lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 10 Flayed Ones are 420pts so you could easily fit 1 squad of 9 and 2 units of 6 for the exact same points.
They do yeah,so declare all your drops 1st, let your opponent do his units e.g. I put 5 in Deepstrike so he gets to out 5 units down right away. Then use that to your advantage to set up the rest of your army.
How do you guys spend cp points for Necrons? I save them for auto leadership passes. Any other good uses for them since we don't have a codex yet? Thanks.
BillyN831 wrote: How do you guys spend cp points for Necrons? I save them for auto leadership passes. Any other good uses for them since we don't have a codex yet? Thanks.
I presume you play lots of Warriors because they are the only units that require Auto-passing morale
I usually spend my CPs on drawing new cards, re-rolling damage rolls and re-rolling D6 to hit rolls on my tomb Sentinel. Charges as well if they are needed.
If I have DDA at long range at deployment and then I move up 1-3 of them with Grand illusion, has the Doomsday ark been stationary to the point that it can use its high powered profile?
Or does deployment of DDA in general count as a 'movement' to the point that first turn we cant use high powered profile?
Just always bugs me when I deploy and nothing gets in range of the flayer array rapid fire, or at least its general range unless I decide 'Eff it, low powers still ok against what ima use the flayers on. Charge!'
Can the tesseract vault use the same power multiple times in the same turn? Or does it have to use each power once assuming its on that point in the damage table?
Lothmar wrote: Can the tesseract vault use the same power multiple times in the same turn? Or does it have to use each power once assuming its on that point in the damage table?
Im like 75% sure it got FAQ'd into having to use each power and not using the same power 3 times.
Am I dumb or is the TV actually a decent anti horde unit? Especially if they have a lot of units in a clustered formation to take advantage of auras etc (kind of like we do).
Effectively, put it on the board with Deceiver and have deceiver plop it down close, then it moves and runs in and is all but adjacent prior to shooting. Then if the enemy mobs around it to bring it down that that vengeance of the enchained chance with it's 4+, 2d6 inch range and d6 mortal wounds. *chuckle*
Dangit, now im imagining a suicide bomber c'tan build.
is there any value to be gained for us from using fortifications or any of the Structures in the imperial Index?
I used a Void Shield Generator to protect Sentry Pylons in 7th, wonder if anyone has had any thoughts on how they could help us?
hiding Scarabs under Aegis to prevent them from being shot maybe? I know psychic powers can be cast outside of LoS, but at least it splits enemy fire between actual shots and Smites instead of letting them focus fire.
Skoffs mentions vsg for sentry pylons in the top of this page, otherwise I haven't given it much thought. There was some talk og landing pad for DDAs in the first days of 8th but think the consensus agreed it wasn't worth it
Does the word 'twin' in a weapon name for our army actually do anything? Or is it already calculated into the stat of the weapon?
ex: Twin tesla destructor being Assault 8 and Tesla destructor being assault 4 but the same stats on everything else?
Or am I thinking of 'twin linked' ?
---
Also am I the only one that thinks the 'Obsidax' is kind of bleh, especially since warscythes are a thing? Or is it just crappy cause it's an ancient war relic and its legend etc became the reason why they created cool technology warscythes to emulate the world killer etc?
Lothmar wrote: Does the word 'twin' in a weapon name for our army actually do anything? Or is it already calculated into the stat of the weapon?
ex: Twin tesla destructor being Assault 8 and Tesla destructor being assault 4 but the same stats on everything else?
Or am I thinking of 'twin linked' ?
AFAIK the word Twin just splits it into a separate profile with already calculated stats (double shots) it prevents you from shooting at two different targets (like Tomb blades can do) with each weapon meaning all shots of the Twin HGC from a Stalker must go on the same target, for example.
Twin means it's already combined into the profile. It is different, however, to having two of the same weapon due to split fire. If i have a twin 8 attack weapon and two 4 attack weapons, I can split fire the two attacks but not the twin.
With Wraiths, if I take whip coils that doesn't grant any extra attacks in melee right?
Also I can choose which weapon im using (though why would I choose the inferior one most of the time) correct?
If im using the whip coil special effect (ie someone kills one in a turn before I get to attack), are the attacks im making as normal with viscous claws or should I use the whip coils profile for damage?
Also can the particle caster be used in the assault? Or does it just get to shoot in the shooting phase even if in melee?
I assume the unit you are in melee with is considered the closest unit correct? Or can I shoot from melee into other nearby units?
I've gone up against AdMech recently, and did well at 2k against the x4 Kastellan Robot build with a datasmith to give them double tapping.
I fielded 12 wraiths + Praetorians to blitz up the field, and keep him away from the relic, but by the time he'd managed to clear them up, there was not much of him left, and we mathed out that he could not move far enough to catch the relic unit by the end of the game even if I did not table him first.
I've found I need to be play very, very smart to win with Crons nowadays. Got a game against Marines Friday. Should be good.
Which is better to combine with Gauss pylons invul field for taking down an armor block or a big wound point model? 9x Canoptek Arcanthrites or 3x Heat cannon Sentry pylons? (Naturally this will be paired with at least one Tri stalker for the reroll of 1's since these are such high value damage shots)
Just model to model they're same cost but dependent on the deployment zone etc they'll probably need the Deciever to get into position and if you dont have the iniative that's one turn where they are vulnerable, compared to the sentries who can teleport in with the GP and remain safe even if you dont have initiative.
The sentries lack mobility but they've got decent enough reach, especially if you place aggressively and keep them relatively bottled in your 18" range of Death unless they want to waste the movement peeling off and around or trying to go past. But on a particularly big battlefield they start to become less relevant as the game goes on, especially after you wipe up the priority target zone you deployed them again... At best they've got twice the shots of the arcanthrites but at worse they've got a third so on average they'll have the same amount of shots though losing models with SP will effect your number of shots more however...
The Arcanthrites while lacking weapon range have amazing speed, are flyers so they can disengage from melees and still shoot, have decent melee weapons so can blitz into melee after shooting and then dip out next turn to shoot again etc (if its not suicide to assault the thing). Having assault weapons instead of heavy so no penalty for shooting after moving unless you're advancing of course for max movement. Slightly more wounds as a group then the Pylons, 3 wounds per model so while ok against single wound stuff the high damage stuff against them at least only kills 1 model at a time... Losing models is less costly to shooting damage output since each is only one shot. Most likely after the first or second turn they'll have to leave the relative safety of the Gauss pylons invul but at least they've got the -1 to hit them bonus to fall back on..
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Good job against AdMech, they seem nasty with the codex. What else did you have in the list except Wraiths and Praetorians?
Yeah I'd like to know more too. I have 10 caster and blade Praets burning a hole in my pocket, I just can't find a place to put their expensive ass. How did you incorporate them?
Lothmar wrote: I assume Toholks 'Eternal engines' ability does not work if you are holding him in reserves to bring in either via monolith/invasion beam correct?
Cause it occurs at the start of the first battle round and the vehicle has to be within 6" of him.
Yep, unfortunately being on a tomb world puts him out of reach of the stuff that is in orbit of another planet. *chuckle*
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wish Crons had some kind of vehicle leader, other then the CCB since that buffs infantry and it always feels weird for me to build an armor build but then suddenly be missing almost 600 points out of it. Usually because I field toholk and fielding him feels kind of bad without fielding infantry and if you're going warriors and cryptek you might as well double down with a ghost ark for maximum annoyance on the RP.
Or that 'Destroyer' was a wargear option for Crypteks, Lords and orverlords. That way you could make leadership destroyers as needed and you wouldn't need 2 more leadership entries. Ex: A destroyer overlord with MWBD for the Destroyer wing or a Cryptek destroyer (destroy tec *chuckle*) so that the destroyers dont have to slowly move in order to stay in the invul and reanimation field.
I like seeing leadership models that use wraith stuff too, man I wish there was a 'Wraith lord' *chuckle*. Or like an 'Alpha Wraith' (mwbd limited to beasts). But if that happened I'd also want a Scarab queen - Heck just make it a tomb spyder, or give the spyders gear that gains +1 inch movement for every Scarab within X inches or something cause they carry them along. *chuckle* Their movement differences are the main reason I dont try to run a build at least once that is primarily Scarabs with many squads of spyders so that you can keep refreshing the scarabs up to full so long as the spyders aren't killed or the scarabs aren't wiped (cause I dont want to make longer and longer daisy chains every turn).
I had a minor defeat today versus an all Chaos Space Marines bike army. What's good versus them? Scarab screen with immortals strength 5 ap -2? Thanks.
Immortals aren't going to be able to catch up to them to get into rapid fire range. Gauss Tomb Blades would probably be better.
Problem is, their bikes are way cheaper than ours, so you'll never have enough to handle the numbers they will have.
Can possibly mitigate that with Scarabs. Tie them up while the TBs whittle down the unengaged ones, then mop up afterwards.
BillyN831 wrote: I had a minor defeat today versus an all Chaos Space Marines bike army. What's good versus them? Scarab screen with immortals strength 5 ap -2? Thanks.
Tie them up with Wraiths then finish them off with a Destroyer Lord w/warscythe & phylactery or Praetorians (or both).
BillyN831 wrote: I had a minor defeat today versus an all Chaos Space Marines bike army. What's good versus them? Scarab screen with immortals strength 5 ap -2? Thanks.
I think a Triarch Stalker w/ Particle Shredder, MWBD Tesla Immortals, Gauss Tomb Blades and a unit of 5 Wraiths would be good. Could also use Scarabs to deny them Charging your important units.
torblind wrote: Wouldnt the chaos bikes be coming to you? they probably want to get in pistol range or cc range, I don't know what they are armed with
Pretty sure the codex says they still got their CCW and Pistol, so fully expect them to come after you.
Also Legion trait is gonna be important here. Best Legions here would be Renegades (Advance + Charge), World Eaters (a delicious +1 attack from charging) and Iron Warriors (instead using them as a partial range unit and getting the most of Special Weapon saturation with Ignores Cover and THEN possibly charging a target). No matter the Legion, expect them to charge Necrons. They ain't so durable right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: Immortals aren't going to be able to catch up to them to get into rapid fire range. Gauss Tomb Blades would probably be better.
Problem is, their bikes are way cheaper than ours, so you'll never have enough to handle the numbers they will have.
Can possibly mitigate that with Scarabs. Tie them up while the TBs whittle down the unengaged ones, then mop up afterwards.
Bikers went down for both the cowardly traitors and loyalist scum, so I expect a price drop on Bikes everywhere. This includes us, of course.
skoffs wrote: Bikes may eventually go down in price for us, but that doesn't help things for the time being.
I fully know that. Just wanted to paint a brighter future for one of the grimmest threads in the entire forum at this point. I mean, the army isn't unplayable, but I do way too much to make it work, and thats from someone that's proxied Dark Eldar before out of boredom.
Several codexes have gotten new HQ options to kitbash out of current kits, so I'm cautiously optimistic for a vehicle-friendly generic HQ of some sort whenever the codex hits.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Good job against AdMech, they seem nasty with the codex. What else did you have in the list except Wraiths and Praetorians?
We both knew which armies were coming to the table (Necrons vs AdMech) but we rolled mission and deployment together.
I got most of my advantage during deployment. It would have been nastier, however he had seized on me in initiative.
My full list was.
Overlord Res Orb, WS - Res Orb combo with Cryptek helped me save my relic bearers, they were shot down to 1 model remaining (9 losses) used 2 CP to prevent morale loss, reanimated the whole squad following. Cryptek 5++ helped keep the Praetorians alive turn 1.
Cryptek
10 Immortals Tesla
9 Immortals Gauss
10 Warriors
7 Praetorians
6 Wraiths
6 Wraiths
Annihilation Barge - Literally in the list as lascannon bait. It mostly worked.
x3 Heavy Destroyers
x3 Heavy Destroyers
His from memory was something like
Cawl
Techpreist Dominus
x3 Onager Dunecrawlers (x2 lascannons, x1 icarus)
x4 Kastellan Robots w/ triple phosphor
Datasmith
A block of infiltrator assault skitarii
2 squads of rangers
2 squads of...vanguard?
It was a close thing. Don't get me wrong, but I gave him less than ideal targets to focus on that could actually take his fire.
Got into combat with his screening units, tied up his kastellans, and by that point i'd whittled him down enough he could not hope to catch my warriors running away to the far end of the board into a building.
If tomb blades drop in points they are a near auto include in all of my lists, considering how well they perform on the tabletop. In saying that, would ours potentially drop? Having stupid dakka, RP and fly makes them very very good. I cant think of many bikes that are better. Any others have awesome shooting, durability, invuln saves and ignores cover as options on a 3+ save?
Cryptek 5++ helped keep the Praetorians alive turn 1.
Cryptek is able to give 5+ invul to Friendly Dynasty Infantry units. Praetorians lack a way to gain <Dynasty> so your 5+ invul and 4+ Reanimation (if used) doesn't affect Praetorians.
Anrakyr and Szeras are the only HQs that can buff Praetorians.
Cryptek 5++ helped keep the Praetorians alive turn 1.
Cryptek is able to give 5+ invul to Friendly Dynasty Infantry units. Praetorians lack a way to gain <Dynasty> so your 5+ invul and 4+ Reanimation (if used) doesn't affect Praetorians.
Anrakyr and Szeras are the only HQs that can buff Praetorians.
Guh. That is really pant-on head stupid. But looking back over things, i can't see any reason you wouldn't be right.
He mostly focused the wraiths. Basically wiped a squad of 6 turn 1.
I ordered two sentry pylons but seeings as how neither come with the necessary parts to make a heat cannon, i was wondering if you folks have any suggestions on kit bashing one?
Just played a 1500 match against Dark Eldar, rolled for Retrieval mission with vanguard deployment.
List was:
Spoiler:
Overlord with Warscythe
10 Immortals with Tesla
Triarch Stalker with Twin Heavy Gauss
Tomb Sentinel with Gloom Prism (centipede)
Tomb Stalker with Gloom Prism (centipede)
5 Acanthrites (wasps)
3 naked Wraiths
6 Scarabs
Doomsday Ark
He had:
Spoiler:
3 Ravagers with Dark Lances
2 Archons
bunch of vipers with 5 squads of kabalites in em, and the two archons in one viper
2 squads of 3 bikes
He focused the wasps, then the centipedes when I had em pop up end of turn 2 (got a nice clean opening that I didnt have turn 1_. I got a viper with the archons (one died in the wreck), a ravager, and a squad of the bikes.
Doomsday did diddly. Same with the triarch. Triarch just doesnt have the range I needed, and the Doomsday doesnt have the shots. Wraiths got into melee and I feel like they can wreck face. I know the wasps can, but they got murdered crossing the field. I feel like scarabs were only useful for me denying deep strike, but seeing as he didnt have any... useless. Loving the wraiths though. Now thinking about swapping the triarch/doomsday/olord/scarabs for a monolith and CCB. get much more in my opponents face.
(On the plus side, table next to my was Space Wolves v Grey Knights. GK brought grandmaster, Draigo, and a stormraven. I never want to fight that.)
I personally think Gauss Tomb Blades, Tesla Immortals, Tesseract Ark and Triarch Stalker would be a good combination.
May I ask how your Tomb Sentinel and Stalker got popped turn 2?I would presume the Stalker would have been gak at fire but good at CC while the Sentinel would have been more reliable?
Maybe you just didn't play the army right? Everything you listed should have given the Drukhari player. A hard time and not a turn 2 tabling?
We're you playing Offensively or Defensively ?
The Triarch Stalker can move 10" so you could of had 36"+10" (48)" range if you dont mind a -1 to hit. Nearly everyone here has agreed that DDA are pretty lame. The only good thing about them is their mobility and firing power of 10 warriors. You need to field 2-3 DDAs just to make them affective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is also quite "bad" to build an army around other armies. Your "new" list might stop your opponents Drukhari but it might be gak towards Orks, Space Marines, Aeldari etc. It's usually better to build the army you want that can basically cover all army threats and then learn that army in side out.
Just don't feel disappointed if your "anti-Drukhair" list can't handle other armies.
I mean, a ravager full of dark lances will vapourise a centipede a turn each.....
Scarabs are meant for DS denial and good against hordes, but not much else. You needed actual anti tank to pop the ravagers and vipers, of which you had very little. Tesseract arks, pylons all would go a long way, D6 shots is much better than d3.
If you took a monolith and CCB against that you would die even quicker. A 20w monolith wouldn't last a turn, and offer way less offence. A CCB without a screen is also the same.
Besides that you dont have much offensive punch, the melee centipede is terrible, the only reason you take them is for the big ol face gun. And thats a not a great idea against an army as mobile as the one you faced with a 12" gun.
What would actually be pretty good against an army like that is massed infantry, meaning his dark lances and ravageres are wasted. That way you can pop the vipers and shoot what is inside.
Also Odrankt, I am using the heat ray from my triarch stalker, magnetising it so I can use it for both.
Klowny wrote: Scarabs are meant for DS denial and good against hordes, but not much else.
File High Toughness units (T7+) into that "else" category.
TBH, I dont really rate their damage output against anything but T3/4, and only T4 with crappy saves, like orks. The lack of an ap is really noticable. Sure they are more effective vs T8 than S6 attacks on paper, but those S6 attacks will be bringing a good AP and damage usually, C'tan for example, while a wraith still has -1ap.
High toughness usually also brings a good armour save, and while you might put 7-8 wounds on one (if your lucky) thats maybe 1-2 wounds that will get through. If you dont save a single c'tan attack thats on a 5++ usually, its at least that damage, probably more.
The math shows that, point for point, they've got better offense than Wraiths against most anything, ESPECIALLY high toughness models (even accounting for saves).
Your all good Klowny, there is quite a lot of posting going on between different members.
I think that Scarabs are good at Counter-Deep string, Denying CC, holding up enemy units that will wreck gak and to act as an "ambush" unit incase your enemy is up in your grill.
I think 2-3 units of 8-9 is loads to do what I have stated above. I usually have a unit body guard my Triarch Stalkers, Immortals and Overlord and use the other to eat smite spam and to help my Tomb Sentinel stay in combat by not letting my enemy fall back into them.
- JNAProductions -
Maths might show Scarabs are better then Wraiths "point of point" but we are playing a Dice game which means we're nearly always playing a different games due to dice rolls. I think it is better to have a unit for dedicated CC (Praetorians and Wraiths) and units that counter it or deny it (Scarabs) then to have a army made based maths alone. The Scarabs might be our best point for point units but that doesnt mean they are going to preform like the maths show. I rather list build on reliability then list build on what should preform better.
Odrankt wrote: Maths might show Scarabs are better then Wraiths "point of point" but we are playing a Dice game which means we're nearly always playing a different games due to dice rolls. I think it is better to have a unit for dedicated CC (Praetorians and Wraiths) and units that counter it or deny it (Scarabs) then to have a army made based maths alone. The Scarabs might be our best point for point units but that doesnt mean they are going to pro-form like he maths show. I rather list build on reliability then list build on what should preform better.
And that kinda confuses me-I'd rely on math to see which is more reliable, not gut feelings.
I'm not saying you're wrong (I lack ANY experience with 8th edition 'Crons, so obviously I'm speaking purely from theory) especially since it's so dinger-dang ANNOYING to get Scarabs, but I would think you'd want the cold, hard, objective reliability that comes from math, rather than anecdotal evidence.
Like I said, I don't have experience with 'Crons in 8th, so if the tournament winners and your experience tells you otherwise, then that's fine. I just find math is quite the useful tool.
At the Start of 8th I loved Scarabs. Legit thought they were the bees knees. After a few games I realised that bring 40-50+ really halted my games because 1) it was eating up my turns, made my games longer which was an issue in tournaments 2) I found my self not really know what to do with so many Scarabs so just put loads on bases and wasted my points basically.
I my self don't usually have anything for CC in my army just usually Bring Scarabs and a Tomb Sentinel as my CC force.
Odrankt wrote: Your all good Klowny, there is quite a lot of posting going on between different members.
I think that Scarabs are good at Counter-Deep string, Denying CC, holding up enemy units that will wreck gak and to act as an "ambush" unit incase your enemy is up in your grill.
I think 2-3 units of 8-9 is loads to do what I have stated above. I usually have a unit body guard my Triarch Stalkers, Immortals and Overlord and use the other to eat smite spam and to help my Tomb Sentinel stay in combat by not letting my enemy fall back into them.
- JNAProductions -
Maths might show Scarabs are better then Wraiths "point of point" but we are playing a Dice game which means we're nearly always playing a different games due to dice rolls. I think it is better to have a unit for dedicated CC (Praetorians and Wraiths) and units that counter it or deny it (Scarabs) then to have a army made based maths alone. The Scarabs might be our best point for point units but that doesnt mean they are going to preform like the maths show. I rather list build on reliability then list build on what should preform better.
If we're going by dice averages then I have easily rolled more 1s then any other Phaeron here
Math build if you want lads. Just remember we also have to think about or Resilience and survivability. 70+ Scarabs is 210+ wounds which is quite good. But, imagine facing 140 Rattlings, 40 Conscripts and 30+ Mortars with an army of Scarabs?
High wound count, good Toughness, Mobility and Invul saves are the key to surviving. Scarabs only hit 2 of those "Keys" while Wraiths hit 3 easily.
Klowny wrote:I mean, a ravager full of dark lances will vapourise a centipede a turn each.....
Scarabs are meant for DS denial and good against hordes, but not much else. You needed actual anti tank to pop the ravagers and vipers, of which you had very little. Tesseract arks, pylons all would go a long way, D6 shots is much better than d3.
If you took a monolith and CCB against that you would die even quicker. A 20w monolith wouldn't last a turn, and offer way less offence. A CCB without a screen is also the same.
Besides that you dont have much offensive punch, the melee centipede is terrible, the only reason you take them is for the big ol face gun. And thats a not a great idea against an army as mobile as the one you faced with a 12" gun.
What would actually be pretty good against an army like that is massed infantry, meaning his dark lances and ravageres are wasted. That way you can pop the vipers and shoot what is inside.
This was my themed Canoptek list, meant to take on a fair bit of options. DDA, Triarch Stalker, Acanthrites, and Tomb Sentinel were all there specifically for the anti-tank. Its not that I made the list to fight DE specifically, but that's just who I wound up playing against. Also, how dare you sir insult the Tomb Stalker! The thing has eaten dreads and infantry alike. I will not give up my multi-legged baby. As for massed infantry, all I have for models atm are 24 Warriors and 20 Immortals, with ten of each gun.
Odrankt wrote:Drukhari are a pretty mobile and offensive army.
I personally think Gauss Tomb Blades, Tesla Immortals, Tesseract Ark and Triarch Stalker would be a good combination.
May I ask how your Tomb Sentinel and Stalker got popped turn 2?I would presume the Stalker would have been gak at fire but good at CC while the Sentinel would have been more reliable?
Maybe you just didn't play the army right? Everything you listed should have given the Drukhari player. A hard time and not a turn 2 tabling?
We're you playing Offensively or Defensively ?
The Triarch Stalker can move 10" so you could of had 36"+10" (48)" range if you dont mind a -1 to hit. Nearly everyone here has agreed that DDA are pretty lame. The only good thing about them is their mobility and firing power of 10 warriors. You need to field 2-3 DDAs just to make them affective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is also quite "bad" to build an army around other armies. Your "new" list might stop your opponents Drukhari but it might be gak towards Orks, Space Marines, Aeldari etc. It's usually better to build the army you want that can basically cover all army threats and then learn that army in side out.
Just don't feel disappointed if your "anti-Drukhair" list can't handle other armies.
Would love to use a Tesseract Ark if I had the money to afford it. Don't really want to use Tomb Blades; I only have 6 Gauss ones and I think they look wonky. Centipedes got popped in a single turn of shooting from massed Dark Lance fire, as well as having the Viper's shoot at them with I think scatter? guns, as well as the occupants. I was playing offensively, but he had target priorities nailed down I feel. If the Acanthrites had made it into combat things would've been mulched. As a side note, it wasn't a turn 2 tabling. We ran out of time by the middle of turn 4. Despite my awful rolling (5 failed saves on the Acanthrites, and 5 failed Reanimations for the immortals), I still had a presence on the table. Just not enough to do anything with. Certainly the most I got from this was that our units are exceptionally overcosted.
skoffs wrote:
FunkBiscuit wrote: thinking about swapping the triarch/doomsday/olord/scarabs for a monolith and CCB
Swapping some of our better units out for some of our worst ones?
Well, hopefully it works out better for you than I would assume would go...
I straight up do not understand how the DDA is considered one of the best options. I feel its mostly considered good because its all we have at all for anti-tank, unless you go FW. Being first place when there are only 2 contenders doesn't make it that noteworthy.
Forgot to add: was thinking CCB and Monolith so I could deep strike the Monolith and immortals into my enemy's face, and have the wasps/wraiths screen the barge as it shoots up field. I need to rethink this seeing as how that leaves me with 3 units on board and 4 in reserve...
Forgot to add: was thinking CCB and Monolith so I could deep strike the Monolith and immortals into my enemy's face, and have the wasps/wraiths screen the barge as it shoots up field. I need to rethink this seeing as how that leaves me with 3 units on board and 4 in reserve...
You are aware that you risk losing those immortals if the monolith gets shot up the turn it arrives? (you cant drop the immortals the same turn it comes). Just checking, as thats what the guys said would happen.
Odrankt wrote: Your all good Klowny, there is quite a lot of posting going on between different members.
I think that Scarabs are good at Counter-Deep string, Denying CC, holding up enemy units that will wreck gak and to act as an "ambush" unit incase your enemy is up in your grill.
I think 2-3 units of 8-9 is loads to do what I have stated above. I usually have a unit body guard my Triarch Stalkers, Immortals and Overlord and use the other to eat smite spam and to help my Tomb Sentinel stay in combat by not letting my enemy fall back into them.
- JNAProductions -
Maths might show Scarabs are better then Wraiths "point of point" but we are playing a Dice game which means we're nearly always playing a different games due to dice rolls. I think it is better to have a unit for dedicated CC (Praetorians and Wraiths) and units that counter it or deny it (Scarabs) then to have a army made based maths alone. The Scarabs might be our best point for point units but that doesnt mean they are going to preform like the maths show. I rather list build on reliability then list build on what should preform better.
Reliability is shown in the dice averages...
Thats just it, the higher average damage output you get, the more reliable it is.
Now wraiths will certainly live to fight another turn, while the scarabs gets squished by shooting and then by CC, so there definitely is a bigger picture here. Increased survivability always means better value, so it definitely belongs in the equation. Not to mention that increased survivability means they can adapt to shifting tactical pictures, go elsewhere following other plans when needed without dying in the process.
Consider this though when choosing between Wraiths and Scarabs; how often are you going against mortal wound spam versus literally any other gun? Any amount of focused fire on scarabs will shred them up with their 6+ save, and if they happen to have any AP? Nope, say goodbye to handfuls of wounds. Scarabs are cheap for a reason; you get what you pay for with them.
Like yeah I see where you could make the case about mortal wounds, but people aren't all running Tzeentch and Grey Knights
I personally built a list for anti smite, I was against gak loads of Renegades & Here using Malefic Lords (30pts HQ, basically the cheapest smite caster in 8th) as well as Tzeentch Fly Circus. Most of my lists had 6-9 units of Scarabs (around 54-81) and for awhile that worked. I then went up against lots of Orks, Drukhari, IG and Tau. Realised 6+ saves is terrible. Especially when rolling lots of dice or dealing with -1 AP. Bring all the Scarabs you want friend just don't expect it to be competitive.
Also, for those that haven't noticed, 8th is about every unit in every army having a position. Scarabs are great for ambushing, holding objectives, Deepstriking and denying units being charged. Mostly better against T8-9 units but most armies will only have 2-4 units of T8 models so having that many units for those circumstances isn't a viable option due to no save when agaisnt AP-1 or worse and wounding of 5+.
Wraiths are good as Body guards for important units like the Nightbringer, holding really good enemy CC units in Combat so your more important units stay alive so you can fall back and shoot the gak out of those enemy units. They also move through enemy units and Terrain with no penalties so can multi-charge to hold several units up. I don't see Scarabs having that ability or reliability?
Scarabs can't do what Wraiths do and Wraiths can't do what Scarabs do. You need to have a balance to have an effective army. Playing the game will show you this, maths just gives you an idea of what everything "should" turn out to be
Odrankt wrote: Maths might show Scarabs are better then Wraiths "point of point" but we are playing a Dice game which means we're nearly always playing a different games due to dice rolls. I think it is better to have a unit for dedicated CC (Praetorians and Wraiths) and units that counter it or deny it (Scarabs) then to have a army made based maths alone. The Scarabs might be our best point for point units but that doesnt mean they are going to pro-form like he maths show. I rather list build on reliability then list build on what should preform better.
And that kinda confuses me-I'd rely on math to see which is more reliable, not gut feelings.
I'm not saying you're wrong (I lack ANY experience with 8th edition 'Crons, so obviously I'm speaking purely from theory) especially since it's so dinger-dang ANNOYING to get Scarabs, but I would think you'd want the cold, hard, objective reliability that comes from math, rather than anecdotal evidence.
Like I said, I don't have experience with 'Crons in 8th, so if the tournament winners and your experience tells you otherwise, then that's fine. I just find math is quite the useful tool.
I understand they are more efficient point for point math wise, but from personal tournament experience they are severely underwhelming damage wise.
They still perform great as DS denial and a huge wound pool/screen but they do not do damage.
Heres why:
Sure they might do more damage point for point than wraiths if all are in combat, but that is almost never the case. They are primarily used as a defensive screen, so 99/100 times you have a squad of 9 spanning half the table. They get charged, and suddenly only 3 or 4 MAX can fight back, and thats even when your pulling the ones from the other side of the board. You posted previous maths before, stating that you can get double the amount of scarabs for the same price as wraiths, and showed that that amount of scarabs does more damage against a target than the wraiths, however it is almost logistically impossible for this to happen due to the base sizes, the fact they are spread out across the whole board and the 6+ save they get.
You never, ever get 1st turn charges with them, meaning they will do their actual job and soak fire, and being T3 6+ means they die when they are focused, which is usually what happens due to them screening the big juicy targets behind them.
So in a perfect mathematical world you are right, they outperform their S6 T5 ap-1 3++ counterparts, but realistically the wraiths are what you take if you want offensive punch while also screening well, denying the board and soaking up damage. Scarabs are good for screening duties, and horde control. Nothing T4 3+ and better takes a bunch of damage from them. :(
Dont get me wrong, I took 27 bases to my last tournament thinking they would do work for me. I saw almost no hordes, and as a result they underperformed compared to my expectations.
Had i seen conscripts, or brimstones, or more gaunts, then yes, they would do work, but if you see more power armour than not, they aren't worth the points vs wraiths (offensively, they still have a place in an army, Im still runnin 8-16 depending on sideboards of next tournament)
Concerning Wraiths and Scarabs.
Here's my opinion:
Scarabs Scarabs are screening units. I use them to receive charges rather than charging. Sure there are situations where they should charge. I use them in units of 5-6.
Wraiths Wraiths I use to either charge enemy vehicles or small infantry units. They can also fill the same screening role as Scarabs and take charges. Your next turn you can simply fall back with them in any direction. They are also a very mobile distraction carnifex. I take them in units of 4-6.
Damage output When it comes to damage output both are very mediocre. On paper Scarabs are clearly better, but then you have to field large units and hope that every model can fight. I don't use any of them because of the damage they can do.
Toughness Wraiths can survive more damage point for point thanks to higher toughness.
Objective holding Both units are good at holding objectivs and have their uses. Wraiths can take more damage and Scarabs can be hidden.
What I use I usually have one of each unit in my list. Perhaps two units of Scarabs if I can afford them.
It's a fairly close race in dmg output between Wraiths and Scarabs. It's only against T-shirt saves scarabs have their real advantage in dmg output, and its still at best twice the damage (T3/6+).
Meanaing if you start losing a 1/3 or 1/4 of them before you get to deal the damage, then the advantage is gone.
If the scenario comes up where dethmarks intercept deathmarks and it chains off of that, how is that resolved?
Scenario - I infiltrate in a squad of flayed ones so in response my opponent Ethereal Interceptions them with a squad of deathmarks. In response to this I Ethereal Interception his squad with my squad then he Ethereal Interceptions that squad with his second and I Ethereal Interception that second with my second.
A) All shooting attacks are simultaneous.
B) This chains backwards from the last deployed Deathmark squad allowing player 1 to diminish the effectiveness of player 2's deathmarks before they shoot at my other deathmarks etc.
C) This Chains forwards from the first deployed deathmark squad so no one is short changed.
D) Whoever was the last to play deathmarks it is their current shooting phase and therefor they shoot all their deathmarks at this point at their various targets. Then it becomes the other players shooting phase and they can shoot any of their deathmarks that are left at their targets.
E) Other - Explain
I would say they trigger one after another, ie last-in-first - out, but if FAQ'ed GW would probably rule it by the law of sequencing, ie the player who's turn it is decides who shoots first.
BillyN831 wrote: Do you prefer staff of light or warscythe? Thanks.
Warscythe every time for me. We need some deterrent in CC, even if it is a pale shadow of what it once was.
Played a good 1500 pt game vs Blood Angels last week. Ended up a draw at the bottom of 4 turns since the store was closing down. But, I think if it had continued another turn, I miiiight have been able to table him.
My MVP in that game where the 10 tesla Immortals who simply refused to die. Criptek 5++ and 4+ RP meant that they kept him occupied for 3 turns after suffering to put out my tomb blades squad.
That one didn't go so well due to smite. In retrospect, I should have just sat over in range and cycle units in and out of smite range. MVP there where my tesla tomb blades wrecking face of the splitting horrors despite the Changeling buff.
My MVP in that game where the 10 tesla Immortals who simply refused to die. Criptek 5++ and 4+ RP meant that they kept him occupied for 3 turns after suffering to put out my tomb blades squad.
That one didn't go so well due to smite. In retrospect, I should have just sat over in range and cycle units in and out of smite range. MVP there where my tesla tomb blades wrecking face of the splitting horrors despite the Changeling buff.
I looked at the pretty pictures and used google translate.
That Destroyer Lord was a bit crazy in the game against Tzeentch.
I still havent tried out Tomb blades in 8th. Everyone seems to be using them.
What unit size do you find optimal?
Odrankt wrote: I think 6 is a comfortable size for a unit of Tomb Blades. I would personally take 2 units of 6 over 1 unit of 9.
I just find it hard to shell out 300 points for 12 T5 wounds and 3+ save.
However I will try them out in a few friendly games and see what happens.
Welllll, for a few points more you could always get 15 T5 wounds with a 3+ save?
For 315 you'd get 5x Destroyers
For 306 you'd get 6x Tomb Blades w/ Shields and Scopes
If we assume the TBs have Gauss, how comparable are they?
TBs are faster, will be ignoring cover and have more shots.
Destroyers have more wounds with rerolls to hit and better AP.
I think it's Tomb Blades > Destroyers in my opinion.
Tomb Blades are more versatile and have a better shot out put. 1 TB = 2x rapid fire 1 at S5 -2 D 1 per model (or 4 shots in rapid fire). 1 Destroyer = 1 Heavy 2 S5 -3 D D3.
You can also give TB Ignore cover or 5+ invul with +1 save. Destroyers get too Re-roll hit rolls of 1 and ignore -1 to hit.
Tomb Blades are better at killing Infantry and models with 1 wound. Destroyers are better at light-vehicles or models/units with several wounds.
You want your Tomb Blades to get as close as possible while your Destroyers camp back in a building popping Terminators or Rhinos.
So like if a unit fails a morale test and the commissar would kill someone to keep the unit in or something, is that negated and they make the test normally?
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If im running a Destroyer squad and I select a heavy as part of the squad, can the heavy get back up if regular destroyers are alive in that squad, or vice versa?
ex: Squad - 5 Destroyers, 1 Heavy Destroyer.
Turn 1 - Enemy kills 5 destroyers but my Heavy destroyer of that squad is still up. On my turn can I reprot those 5 destroyers back up around my heavy?
Turn 2 - I got back a few destroyers but the enemy only kills one base this turn and I take it to the heavy. On my turn can I re prot that heavy destroyer back up around my regulars cause it's the same squad?
*NM - Confirmed that RP is based on a particular unit, therefor even if different types of models are in the same unit so long as they all have RP any can get back up on that unit.
If it's an aura ability, then yeah, definitely, problem as always, is to deliver the Nemesor close enough and keep him alive. Odds are there are 30 conscripts nearby that lights him up shortly afterwards (cause why would you otherwise get him close to the commisar)
My MVP in that game where the 10 tesla Immortals who simply refused to die. Criptek 5++ and 4+ RP meant that they kept him occupied for 3 turns after suffering to put out my tomb blades squad.
That one didn't go so well due to smite. In retrospect, I should have just sat over in range and cycle units in and out of smite range. MVP there where my tesla tomb blades wrecking face of the splitting horrors despite the Changeling buff.
I looked at the pretty pictures and used google translate.
That Destroyer Lord was a bit crazy in the game against Tzeentch.
I still havent tried out Tomb blades in 8th. Everyone seems to be using them.
What unit size do you find optimal?
I've been using TB in squads of 6, thats enough to not give away first blood as well as to tetreat from the frontline and recover over time with RP.
I find that TB vs Destroyers they ultimately fulfill different goas. Destroyers are, however, more fragile to heavy shooting, as their 3 wounds are equally taken out by D3/D6 shots that are low RoF whereas the 2 wounds attribute on Tomb Blades means that there are actually very few "optimal" weapons to deal with them.
I use them in mixed numbers of 4+/5++ and 3+ to save on points. I find that either weapon works well. I find that using Gauss has a high risk/reward proposition, but Tesla Carbines allow them to exploit their mobility to always be outside of the enemy threat range. The ability to still shoot after advancing is great as well and has allowed me to snipe some characters in the past.
Also, Destroyers move only 10'' compared to the TB 14'' that makes a big difference over the course of a game.
Getting in close is usually pretty easy since our army can redeploy well if you're cagey.
Granted if the person I want to nullify is wrapped behind like three lines then I usually have to settle for whatever models get within my 12" sphere of counter and time arrow snipe other leadership within 24" that have 4 or less wounds.
And usually that's melee characters. But yeah having nemesor with a 20 man warriors squad and a cryptek and a ghost ark and Obyron for leadership rerolls and you're pretty damn durable for a shooting advance unless you just get gak luck or they know what to target priority etc.
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Billy -
I think of it as a honeypot. It's got a buttload of shots within 3 inches and your units can shoot stuff in melee with it so falling back and letting them go after it is somewhat valid. If it's a flyer vehicle line you can just keep backing up one or so inch and shooting every turn and they cant get to it unless they are also flying or want to spend move to go around your long ass flanks.
I prefer giving it a perimeter of stuff with Quantum shielding so that if it does do the 4+ explosion d6 you have a chance of just tanking it and now your vehicles also have an invul save of 5+ in case of heavy AP until it is brought down.
I like to pair with deciever and redeploy like 2 doomsday arks as perimeter walls in a ^ formation within their 24" backup array range and hide a 3 man spyder repair squad behind that or behind a monolith that you also drop from orbit (if you want to field one of them too as a perfect frontal [ screen to provide complete concealment unless they flank).
As long as most of the battle is taking place in a 24-48" region you can have a very strong armor column that dominates the board if you have initiative.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ------------
If you have a squad with 2 guys left and that group gets hit with an ability that does an extra mortal wound in addition to the wounds dealt if they roll max damage, does all the damage (mundane and mortal) resolve against the one model? Or does it do like 6 to one model and then 1 mortal to the second wiping the squad?
Mortal wounds spils over to the next model, thus wiping out the squad. So a Deathmark can kill two one wound models in a unit if it rolls a 6 to wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or 4 models within rapid fire range.
I'd say its not really about "spilling over", although thats what people keep sayind. The extra mortal wound is inflicted onto the unit (because thats your "target"), not a specific model taking damage.
There is no reason to bubblewrap the pylon, considering you should be DS'ing it 99% of the time anyway. It can shoot out of combat, it cant be targeted by shooting attacks while in combat and you can target models in combat with it. Its also T8 30W 5++ so its not the easiest thing in the world to kill. It should be drawing lots of fire.
In regards to tomb blades, I find squads of 8 fit me nicely. 4w/ vanes, 4w/ looms. Scopes are a waste of points I think unless you have them spare, due to how little cover comes into effect (competitively anyway). I feel they are much better than destroyers, due to the huge volume of shots they can dish out, that all have good ap to boot. Sure they dont reroll 1's to hit but who cares when you have stupid dakka in RF range.
I run mine with gauss as the ap-2 is nice against a wide variety of models, and its easy to get into RF range. I have also noticed that while on paper T5 2W 3+/5++ isnt that tanky, they take a hell of a lot of abuse, both shooting and melee to negate RP. So long as you have 1 left alive you burn your 2CP, RP them and fly out of combat and light up whatever was silly enough to let them live.
They move fast, and are very tactically flexible. Give them a points decrease and they become nearly auto include, definetly top 2 units in our codex (fingers crossed).
I faced demons last night, magnus, 2 tzeench DP, 2 nurgle DP, 2 hellbrutes and a FW hellbrute, 40 brims, 2 chariots, changeling, 3 Maelific lords and some bloodletters.
He rolled 5++ ad 6+++'s for days, I didn't even kill a single unit the entire game. Was very disheartening. But his list was nasty and his hot rolls swayed the game (5 6+++'s on Magnus and 6 6+++'s on the changeling IN THE SAME TURN). I'm starting to not enjoy sinking so many points into D6 shots (the pylon) only to see its damage get ignored/the thing whiff. It still is necessary but holy hell is it painful to watch it underperform.
I think the biggest problem armies we have in 8th is GK and demons specifically. Our army is good at killing things with armour saves, which these dont have, and we have very little ways to force mortal wounds to bypass those invluns. Additionally due to having incredibly poor psyker defence we have no real protection against smite spam.
Finally, I was initially underwhelmed at taking the nighbringer over the deceiver this game due to his poor performance previously but HOLY HELL is he actually viable.
Having a shooting attack and fleshbane everything is super noticeable and brutal compared to the redeploy. I really like his damage output and the fact he only needs a cheap screen to operate at max power. Sure he isn't the quickest thing in the world, but when your hitting on 2's you can advance every turn and still hit on 3's, wound on 2's. Nasty
Typically people are talking about the big Superheavy one.
I guess to distinguish between them we should start calling them big-pylon & little-___-pylon? (eg. little-gauss-pylon, little-heat-pylon, little-death-pylon)
G Pylon and S Pylon w/ Gauss, Heat or Death should be okay if people can't understand to which Pylon we are talking about.
-Klowny-
My bro plays Tzeentch all the time and looks for dirty list like these. I definitely stand by you when you say GK and Tzeentch are our worst match ups but I feel ever Psyker-heavy armies gives our crons a run for their money. Not being able to deny all that smite reminds me of 7th when we would wait around 20-40 minutes just to see our opponent work away at their pysk phase.
In hindsight, Deathmarks would have helped you out a good bit. I imagine he used the horrors to chaff his Changling and had everything in a certain way to get use of -1 to hit. Deathmarks would have killed it turn 1 or 2 which would have made the army a lot squishier.
If you were to have a re-match or came up to this army again at a tournament or something. What would you bring to face it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sidenote: anyone else think that a "new" Dynasty arose during the switch of 7th to 8th that might have anti-psyker stratagems and what not to give us anti-pyskers Crons? It would probably make the Sypder useless though... Unless it was able to deny 2-3 powers due to it's Gloom Prism?
I personally would kill for a C'tan dynasty myself, but yeah, I think necrons desperately need some anti psyker.
If it helps, when not using the necrons, I main a GK list that is currently at two losses in 8th, and I usually play every week . If anyone wants personal experience from someone who actually plays the army regularly I 'd be more than happy to provide whatever info I can
Automatically Appended Next Post: And thanks for the clarification on the Pylon. Guess I need to save for a bit
Yep, pylon refers to the big one, sentry pylon is the little baby ones. The small ones have their place, but the big one is the main topic of conversation usually.
Odkrant, I brought 10 deathmarks, but they were outside 12" T1 so no RF, and I put 6 wounds on him (including the MW) and he FNP saved 5 of them (he rolled 5/6 6+'s). I realised what type of game it was going to be then. A tzeench DP stuck them in combat for the rest of the game. Le sigh
TBH, I dont think we have much we can offer to fight that. Maybe c'tan spam, scarabs etc, but yeah, we cant efficiently fight a list like that ATM. It was brutal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Demons take a very different approach to combat vs normal armies, and tbh the lists this dude rocks are very powerful, and do extremely well in tournaments. There are very specific builds that hard counter it, but unfortunately we dont have the tools to field those armies, and if we did they would get wrecked by all the hordes out there, hence why he does so good since people build to fight hordes, and when they come up against this they don't have an answer for it.
Yeah the Big one is 'Gauss Pylon' and the little one is 'Sentry Pylon'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh, so Deciever and nightbringer you can only take one of each...
But there's no limit to the number of Transcendants or Tesseract vaults? . . .Ok.
*Imagines a super heavy detachment of 2 Vaults and one Gauss Pylon providing the two vaults with Invul saves and then putting them in position of enemies via grand illusion if its a large map.* kek
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On the Transcendants C'tans writhing worldscape ability. This would only remove the bonus of cover to armor or to hit rolls correct? Or can it also negate the 'concealment' that cover might provide.
ex: I place this Ctan on a hill with a ledge lip enemy that dont need line of sight to shoot me with are concealing themselves behind and forcing me to respond to them. Does this allow me to shoot my stuff into them so long as I can trace a straight line from the unit through this six inch bubble?
TBH, I dont think we have much we can offer to fight that. Maybe c'tan spam, scarabs etc, but yeah, we cant efficiently fight a list like that ATM. It was brutal.
Usually when we go up against Pysker-Heavy lists we are better off bringing lots of Scarabs. Use some as Anti-charge and Deepstrike then use the rest to get eaten by Smite and whatever else. The only problem with Scarabs-based armies is that you can easily sink 600-800pts on Scarabs but it also means we only have 1400-1200pts to make an "effective" army compared to an effective 2000pt army. It's always going to be an up-hill battle if we are playing against Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh, GK and (maybe) Eldar and Dark Eldar but if you do win it it does feel well deserved and totally surprising.
I usually deploy all my units as close to the board edge as possible and if I get to pick the deployment I always go for Hammer and Anvil just so I can breath for 2 turns and make my opponent split up their synergy if possible and hopefully gather tactics based on his armies movement and what their general goal is. I've had good success in combo-ing Particle Shredder Triarch Stalkers and Gauss Tomb Blades when playing against my Bros Tzeentch but he does spam 80-110 Brimestone with Pink horros. TB probably wouldn't do to much to DP or Margaret (Magnus) because of their ridiculous invul saves and re-rolls.
I held Magnus up with Scarabs when I played against him last. Hid a unit away behind Terrain, made an "obvious" area for him to move into , which he did, thought he was the boss then turn 2 I just ambushed him with Scarabs, shot the fuq out of the brim stones to prevent them coming closer and moved everything in away so Maggy couldn't fall back so was kept in combat for 3 turns. He smite'd the Scarabs to death but he did only have 8 Wounds left so I just lit him up with my Stalkers and Tomb Blades. Took awhile to kill him but it was worth it tbh.
Did he have any tips for your Necrons or the way you play?
I beat magnus with 20 flayed ones. I kept Re prot'ing faster then he could kill me.
Granted this was in the support range of a cryptek, stormlord and Anrakyr (none of which were getting into that battle). *chuckle*
100 attacks, reroll ones to hit and wound, hit on 2's. Volume, volume, volume.
Forget if I was even more annoying and had Nemesor and Obyron there to reroll morale and pull the flayed ones out of melee and then charge em in again. *chuckle*
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Praetorians dont have a dynasty right and we cant assign one too them?
Wanted to try to pair them with Kutlakah as a reason to take the rod instead of the pistol and sword - mainly cause I was trying to figure out a time when it would be better to wield the Rod instead of the pistol and sword...
The only one I could think of was if the enemy was so far away you had to advance and well might as well shoot at -1...
Where as the pistol has the advantage of 'oh im in melee, might as well shoot'.
Lothmar wrote: beat magnus with 20 flayed ones.
[...]
this was in the support range of a cryptek, stormlord and Anrakyr
You had 919 points devoted to a single combat?
What exactly did you take for the rest of your army?
Hell, for 30 points more you could have just taken two G-Pylons, which probably would have been more effective (maybe could have gotten rid of him turn 1).
Wait, are G-Pylons not putting out mortal wounds?
Seems a bit silly that something could deflect a shot that is meant to shoot starships out of orbit as easily as they could deflect a bolter round.
No mortal wounds no. There is usually a story behind the invul save, for example wraiths flicker in and out of reality, and if they happen to flicker out as the shot comes towards them, it passes right through. The shot can be as bad as it likes, if the target isn't there, it can't get hurt. Not sure what the story behind magnus' save is
You had 919 points devoted to a single combat?
What exactly did you take for the rest of your army?
Hell, for 30 points more you could have just taken two G-Pylons, which probably would have been more effective (maybe could have gotten rid of him turn 1).
Yeah it was a funny theme list I made for the lolz, think I called it 'Zombie horde'. Dont have it in front of me but if I had to guess it was melee centric so probably more flayed ones and some ctans (maybe a ghost ark for the 3+ leaders to more easily transport them via GI). But yeah I pretty much just tp'd up to the front line with Grand illusion moved my leadership in then my flayed ones dug out and charged in ahead of the leadership that moved up etc. I pretty much just concentrated everything to the center for the most part and caused his deployed flanks to come collapsing in over the next 2 or so turns which gave me time to chew up the center a bit. Eventually lost because of gak luck on the cards for points.
This was before I found forge worlds and all it's juicy models. *chuckle*
Yeah a GP would probably do better against Magnus, shame he's not 'titanic' despite his size or macro would be even better. But hey at least flying so easier to hit. ^_^ *chuckle*
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On the Transcendants C'tans writhing worldscape: Enemy units within 6" of this model do not receive a bonus to their save from being in cover.
This doesn't prevent total concealment from cover correct?
ex: If I get in range of that unit behind cover that grants concealment, can other units in range then shoot them as if they had no concealment?
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Won a 2k game last night vs Grey knights with my 'god squad' build. He conceded after turn threes shooting despite me thinking that he could have won the battle of attrition since his mechs were easily more able to damage my stuff then mine his etc.
I loved the scene with the Deceiver and the nightbringer with scarab escort getting like 6-9 inches from his command squad and wiping away the screen turn 1 to which he responded by charging in after shooting, powers etc. Then I got an amazing chain reaction on the ctans reality unravels and did 4-6 damage to each leader model and effectively killed 5 out of 6 of the models. *chuckle*
