Bobthehero wrote: And half the SM will be turn to chaos as well. weeeeeeeeeeeee equality!
It required the direct intervention of the Chaos Gods themselves to manage that feat.
And want to know something else?
Far more normal mortals turned heretic during the Horus Heresy than Space Marines.
Magnus attacked the Fang with two million of the Spireguard he whisked away from Prospero during the Heresy.
That's more than the fighting force of all the Legions combined.
At first, the majority of the Astartes that turned were simply following their commanders, some of whom they have lived with and heard legends about literally their entire lives. You have to remember that it wasn't the full Legions that rebelled, since Horus had to purge a significant number of loyalists from his ranks. The other traitor Primarchs did the same; even gentle Lorgar had every Terra-born battle brother slaughtered. So yes, the traitor rate among the Crusade-era Space Marines isn't as high as implied and is in some way understandable.
Which leads to an interesting question regarding the numbers game. How the feth did the CSM fight the SM after purging half of their own ranks.
Which leads to an interesting question regarding the numbers game. How the feth did the CSM fight the SM after purging half of their own ranks.
That's what I have been wondering to.
How the hell did they survived as Legions when they suffered heavy losses then and there?
Especially World Eaters, they fought in civil war after they were defeated and then they scattered as warbands.
Thanks, however I am still amazed how they still exists, all of them suffered losses and nowhere did I read how they train/recruit new marines ( except for the Black Legion that accepts anyone ). I understand for Thousand Sons ( automatons, just assemble after they die ) but how did the likes of Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard etc... replenish their Marines that fall in battle?
It varies, really. You'd want to ask a spikey marine fan on that, my care level with them isn't anywhere NEAR enough to get that detailed in their lore. In fact, I'm surprised I know anything other than their names at times.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Thanks, however I am still amazed how they still exists, all of them suffered losses and nowhere did I read how they train/recruit new marines ( except for the Black Legion that accepts anyone ).
I understand for Thousand Sons ( automatons, just assemble after they die ) but how did the likes of Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard etc... replenish their Marines that fall in battle?
Most of them recruit new recruits just like loyalist marines do. They find compatable male preteens and they under go the process.
Obviously some warp thingies are involved.
Other methods exist, such as one which involves putting captured candidates in these mutated womb things that rapidly turn the recruit into a marine. Although the failure rate is high, and those that fail come out horribly mutated things of flesh. But it does give new marines at a high rate.
Plus there are the various former loyalist marines that have turned traitor over the millenia.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Thanks, however I am still amazed how they still exists, all of them suffered losses and nowhere did I read how they train/recruit new marines ( except for the Black Legion that accepts anyone ).
I understand for Thousand Sons ( automatons, just assemble after they die ) but how did the likes of Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard etc... replenish their Marines that fall in battle?
One of the largest sources of new chaos marines are existing marines that turn traitor. Although you wouldn't realize it from the game-play, but depending on which lore you source, one marine should be the equivalent of between 100 and 1000 normal humans with military training, perhaps even higher. For most Chaos Space Marines, this value should be somewhat higher, so from a practical standpoint they need significantly fewer new recruits than loyalist legions, because their losses are fewer and less frequent. However, various renegade factions do have their own recruiting methods. The Iron Warrirors, for example, have been known to use a variant of a daemon engine called a Daemonculba which can turn (in theory) nearly any adult human male into a Chaos Marine, completely erased of their old self, although the failure rate is extremely high. It is also suggested that some of the more prominent traitor war-bands (such as the Black Legion and the Red Corsairs) are able to raise new recruits much in the same way as their loyalist brothers.
RegalPhantom wrote: Although you wouldn't realize it from the game-play, but depending on which lore you source, one marine should be the equivalent of between 100 and 1000 normal humans with military training, perhaps even higher.
Unfortunately, this quote works if not taken the literal way, but is usually taken the literal way, even by studio writers. The intent of the quote "Give me 100 Space Marines or, failing that, give me 1000 other troops." does work in that applying 100 Space Marines, with all their equipment and training, could accomplish the same objective that 1000 grunts could acheive. It doesn't mean if they stand their ground against a bum rush of 1000 grunts that they will survive. Apply a smaller number of special forces, inserted into the combat zone in a direct way (like via Drop Pod), at the heart of the foe, could accomplish that objective where 1000 grunts would not.
This is a bit non sequitur but I feel the idea of beakies is ridiculous for the following reason:
Could a space marine survive an airplane falling on top of him? I think not. There are only 1M space marines in the universe, orks have far more than 1M planes, ergo I do not see how such a force could exist.
If you don't like that argument think of any other suitable BFG that exists in the known universe in the year 40,000 (or so), there are just too darn many of them for ONLY 1M guys to stand up to. I know that they are not used at once but the shear numbers of horribly killy objects in the universe that could utterly crush a beakie is just laughable. I'd buy it if there were something on the order of like 1 trillion of 'em but c'mon, a force THAT small doesn't really even make a dent on protecting the galaxy! If I recall, there was some quote about how there are barely even enough of them to have 1 per Imperial planet!
I'd think that they would serve more as tactical advisers and sort of "black opts" for the Imperium, a *Single* tactical squad would show up only for missions that require extreme precision. If your total force is only 1000 strong there is on way you are going to risk even 10% of it at any given time, even sending 10 guys out is a risk! It would seem to me that they would probably show up for moral support and to guide battles rather than to drop down and take the full brunt of a horde army assault.
These topics pop up pretty regularly, and my response is always the same. Why use a swat team or a special forces team if you have an army of tanks and jets waitin? Sometimea you need to use a scalpel instead of a hammer. Both have their uses, and their seperate roles.
Space marines on the tabble do not accurately represent the power of space marines in the fluff. Yes there is the 10 to 1 ratio put out as a quote by Dorn. But also, there are nothing but stories of space marine taskforces (60-100 marines plus some equipment) liberating planets that had guardsmen losses in the MILLIONS. If you read the stories, more than just the bottom of the page quotes and the rules (remember. fluff does not dictate rules, except for those few instances where fluff dictates rules), You will find that space marines are probably, in terms of sheer output of enemy dead per marine, worth about 25-100 guardsmen. Also, the average scout may take a decade or two to become a tactical (or devastator depending on chapter traditions), but during that whole time, they are serving as infiltrators, commandos and behind the enemy line fighting specialists. It would be like joining the military, and then going to bootcamp in the jungles of vietnam wih a knife and a shotgun, and maybe in 5-10 years you'll be allowed to graduate. when guardsmen train, its in schools and camps. when marines train, theyre actively killing hundreds at a time.
Space Marines in the fluff do not accurately represent the power of Space Marines in the fluff, either.
It changes wildly form "one unaugmented human can deal with a space marine with contemptuous ease" to "a single space marine took down a thousand dark eldar" or some other ludicrously stupid nonsense.
Melissia wrote: For the most part, they didn't survive as legions. Only three can really be called true legions-- death guard, thousand sons, and the word bearers.
The rest are mostly scattered in to warbands, IIRC.
Actually, the Death Guard has splintered to a degree as well, with Typhus leading probably the largest sub-faction that doesn't just sit around on Mortarion's plague-world. Likewise the Thousand Sons, with Ahriman leading a large distinct splinter force. They're just the "least splintered", though I'd also throw the Iron Warriors into that category as well, generally broken up into Grand Companies that are the size of loyalist chapters or larger.
AtariAssasin wrote: These topics pop up pretty regularly, and my response is always the same. Why use a swat team or a special forces team if you have an army of tanks and jets waitin? Sometimea you need to use a scalpel instead of a hammer. Both have their uses, and their seperate roles.
The issue is, when it comes to the Space Marines, is that it'd be no different than having one single SAS or SEAL guy, that takes the resources of an entire US Navy carrier battlegroup to maintain, for all of NATO, the former Warsaw Pact nations, China, and Japan combined, Army/Navy and Air force for all. That's literally how rare Space Marines are in relation to greater Imperial forces.
That's the problem, the sheer scale of their rarity is mind-boggling. They just don't work at that level.
OlGreye wrote: Space marines on the tabble do not accurately represent the power of space marines in the fluff. Yes there is the 10 to 1 ratio put out as a quote by Dorn. But also, there are nothing but stories of space marine taskforces (60-100 marines plus some equipment) liberating planets that had guardsmen losses in the MILLIONS. If you read the stories, more than just the bottom of the page quotes and the rules (remember. fluff does not dictate rules, except for those few instances where fluff dictates rules), You will find that space marines are probably, in terms of sheer output of enemy dead per marine, worth about 25-100 guardsmen. Also, the average scout may take a decade or two to become a tactical (or devastator depending on chapter traditions), but during that whole time, they are serving as infiltrators, commandos and behind the enemy line fighting specialists. It would be like joining the military, and then going to bootcamp in the jungles of vietnam wih a knife and a shotgun, and maybe in 5-10 years you'll be allowed to graduate. when guardsmen train, its in schools and camps. when marines train, theyre actively killing hundreds at a time.
Hrm, much of this is rather over-exaggerated. A lot of this is also very author dependent, where SM's range from big guardsmen that die to heavy bolter fire and guardsmen-fired mortars all the way to demigods that butcher through thousands of eldar with but a single tac squad, and it's not like the IG dont' also have their similar equivalents (oh no, unrelenting wars of attrition, one "super" regiment/commander shows up after millions of deaths and wins with nary a scratch!).
The issue with SM's training like that is that attrition would have killed them all long ago. At that rate, it'd take the Dark Angels centuries to recover from their few days on Vraks, any more fights like that and they'd be dead in weeks.
And that's why SM's don't really work. They serve to be the narrative focus for a fictional fantasy universe set in space instead of a world of yore, but functionality past that point breaks down rapidly.
Another thing to remember is that for the most part, space marines are built to SURVIVE. these dudes have 23 extra organs and like 19 of them are in order to keep them alive. for example, instantaneous scartissue over wounds, bulletproof bones, and overly redundant organ systems. Another thing to remember is that spa e marines on the whole normally win. most of their engagements arent large scale, high casualty, attrition affairs, but instead, the chapter master sends less than 10% of his marines in , and they kill everything, usually with very few casualties. if you look at the fluff, chapters thast take huge losses generally dont bounce back, or are limited to ridiculously small-scale operations for hundreds of years. as an example, see the Crimson Fists.
OlGreye wrote: Another thing to remember is that for the most part, space marines are built to SURVIVE. these dudes have 23 extra organs and like 19 of them are in order to keep them alive. for example, instantaneous scartissue over wounds, bulletproof bones, and overly redundant organ systems.
And that'll help some things, but not others. An autocannon penetrating the armor is going to turn that marine to jelly, a battlecannon will turn an entire squad to small bits, and a bombing run scattering a dozen 500lb bombs will turn a company into a squad.
And we have lots of battle descriptions talking about marines talking significant casualties, even just 5% casualties would translate to chapters being able to fight only a few years at a time every few decades as they rebuild.
Another thing to remember is that spa e marines on the whole normally win.
We don't know that actually, they only mostly win in the individual extracts given to us, unlike the IG where it's plainly stated that they ulitmately win almost all of their wars. Even if they do, casualties are generally taken, and they take a loooooong time to recover.
most of their engagements arent large scale, high casualty, attrition affairs, but instead, the chapter master sends less than 10% of his marines in , and they kill everything, usually with very few casualties.
Again, even losing 5 dudes out of a Company, assuming 4 such engagements every year, after 3 years those 100 marines are down to 40, and usually at 50-60% strength is when military units are typically considered "broken" and either lack enough generalists to cover their bases and they break or specialists have to assume generalist tasks and the formation loses it's effectiveness. At that rate, after 3 years, they'll almost certainly be taking more casualties than they did at year 1 because they can't cover as many bases, and likely can't even cover the same sorts of operations. Then it'll take decades to recruit and train replacements.
Thus, after a couple of years of service, you're down for decades as you generate replacements. Not the most efficient of organizations...
if you look at the fluff, chapters thast take huge losses generally dont bounce back, or are limited to ridiculously small-scale operations for hundreds of years. as an example, see the Crimson Fists.
Only when they take catastrophic losses will GW usually decide that a chapter will die, they seem to turn Traitor at a greater rate
The casualties the DA's alone took on Vraks realistically should take them centuries to recover in what was a relatively common SM operation, but they seem fine again just a couple years later.
Most of what makes the SM's work is simply the "say-so" of the author writing about them.
Actually I may see a potential issue with your analysis but I'm not a major SM lore buff so let's see who agrees. Essentially you are ruling out the reservist element. Your interpretation seems to assume that when X marine dies Y individual begins his training to become a SM. But that's not inherently true. In fact when X space marine dies, there may be a hundred Y's that are nearly ready to become full fledged SM. As long as SM have a large pool of reserves ready to replace their ranks then their usual operations of high gain and low attrition operations suddenly are more meaningful. Especially when weighed against forces that would take a lot more time/cost/risk to succeed in the form of the IG. The lore tends to paint the SM as gods but without too much forced reinterpretation I still think they can be persuasively argued to fill a niche and critical role in the IoM warmachine.
Another thing to remember is plot armor. Marines have plot armor 10 miles thick. even those that aren't Matt Ward's favorites, unless its the Soul Drinkers. Also, marines are constantly at war in the sense that they, over the course of 10000 years have fought in thousands of conflicts. but warp travel being what it is, they spend a lot of time in transit, and they also must realistically spend a good amount of downtime, considering the whole building of chapels and fortress monasterys, and then building and maintaining their own weapons (this is especially true of the salamanders). Then all that praying and venerating the fallen, A marine may only actually fight in a few battles over the course of a decade, and only one or two of them involve large scale marine company commitments. Some chapters are listed as having gone over 300 years since fighting as a whole. in that time they could easily raise companies of scouts, which as is hinted at, some chapters do maintain extra scout and reserve companies, putting their numbers well over a thousand, and more towards 1200-1300, with only the top 5 companies of most chapters actually participating directly in combat. Then consider that the first compay rarely fields more than 5-10 guys in any conflict. that means that for any given chapter, 405-410 marines are doing the bulk of the fighting, with a feeder program of 600-800 marines replacing casualties, and usually a subsector of space providing equipment and raw recruits.
Shlazaor wrote: Actually I may see a potential issue with your analysis but I'm not a major SM lore buff so let's see who agrees. Essentially you are ruling out the reservist element. Your interpretation seems to assume that when X marine dies Y individual begins his training to become a SM. But that's not inherently true. In fact when X space marine dies, there may be a hundred Y's that are nearly ready to become full fledged SM. As long as SM have a large pool of reserves ready to replace their ranks then their usual operations of high gain and low attrition operations suddenly are more meaningful. Especially when weighed against forces that would take a lot more time/cost/risk to succeed in the form of the IG. The lore tends to paint the SM as gods but without too much forced reinterpretation I still think they can be persuasively argued to fill a niche and critical role in the IoM warmachine.
We have all sorts of fluff that shows SM's recruit very slowly, like the BA's returning once every 10 years to Baal and the like, and it doesn't make much sense that they'd take decades to train and each marine typically lives for decades or centuries with tons of dudes waiting in the wings to hop in, that whole thing only works if marines die very quickly at high rates after achieving marine status, which would contrast with the whole thing of marines serving for decades.
OlGreye wrote: Another thing to remember is plot armor. Marines have plot armor 10 miles thick.
Yes, which is what makes them work primarily.
A marine may only actually fight in a few battles over the course of a decade, and only one or two of them involve large scale marine company commitments.
Which was kinda my point, and in which case, if you've only got a million marines over a galaxy, they're not really seemingly going to be responding to conflicts much more than the Guard is, and thus their point as a "rapid reaction" force is moot.
Some chapters are listed as having gone over 300 years since fighting as a whole.
And at that point, back to the OP's question, what's their point? if you have a military formation that's given its own fiefdom and uses huge amounts of resources and doesn't fight for 300 years...it shouldn't exist.
in that time they could easily raise companies of scouts, which as is hinted at, some chapters do maintain extra scout and reserve companies, putting their numbers well over a thousand, and more towards 1200-1300, with only the top 5 companies of most chapters actually participating directly in combat.
Again, even then, they'd likely still be unable to sustain casualties without going such long periods of time without fighting that the point of their existence is questionable.
Then consider that the first compay rarely fields more than 5-10 guys in any conflict. that means that for any given chapter, 405-410 marines are doing the bulk of the fighting, with a feeder program of 600-800 marines replacing casualties, and usually a subsector of space providing equipment and raw recruits.
And that's an astronomical amount of resources to sustain couple hundred dudes that fight a few times a decade, that could instead be used to raise dozens if not hundreds of IG regiments and numerous IN formations that would be in active service and mitigate if not negate the need for a "reaction" force like the SM's, again leading us back to the point of either they're not really the rapid reaction force they're supposed to be and thus pointless, or they're going to take so many casualties as to be extinct relatively quickly on a 40k scale.
Edit: I've been wanting to chip in for a while now. Here looks like a good spot.
I only see two ways space marines could logically exist:
A) They are all that and a bag of chips, able to capture planets, mow down thousands of enemies single-handily and what-have-you. Therefore, they'd perhaps be "worth it." In this case, there isn't much point to space marines Sure, they'd kick ass, but that's uninteresting.
B) Space marines are just the end result of the Impirium's backwards culture. Even though not cost-efficient, space marine chapters are maintained for the same reasons as anything in the imperium: fear and ignorance. The fact that space marines are hailed as all-conquering champions just further displays the Impirium's preference towards ignorance and tradition to progress and education. In this case, The point of space marines is to take what is honorable, just, fair, knightly, and courageous, and throw it in the face of the grim-darkness, illustrating how little those values contribute to the survival of humankind in the 41st millennium.
In my opinion, the latter option is by far the most interesting, and is the one I prefer the most, as it offers more good stuff thematically as far as I'm concerened.
That said, I doubt many fluffy books (or GW, sadly) support option B.
Vaktathi wrote: And that'll help some things, but not others. An autocannon penetrating the armor is going to turn that marine to jelly, a battlecannon will turn an entire squad to small bits, and a bombing run scattering a dozen 500lb bombs will turn a company into a squad.
I'm not so sure about this. The autocannon, maybe (depends on how the round penetrates). A single battlecannon shot probably won't hit much of a squad since they're unlikely to be bunched together, and a the same with the bombing run. In the Grey Knights Codex, their armour helps protect them from an orbital bombardment dropped around them which takes out a large number of Daemons and Tyranids. I think the idea may be that they're almost immune to shrapnel, and as such a lot of the time only direct hits will kill them (although in that same Codex a company is wiped out accidently by another bombardment, so there you go).
The problem there is that many, if not most, SM chapters do not fit the "honorable, just, fair, knightly" label, and in many ways are supposed to be the king of Grimdark
They're genetically engineered, psycho-indoctrinated, nearly omnicidal super soldiers running around ostensibly in the service of a bueraeucratically strangled omnipresent military theocracy but really just killing wherever and whenever they feel like according to their own self imposed rules and whims, typically covered in markings of death and war such as skulls, blades, and markings very reminiscent of WW2 Reichsadlers or of medieval inquisitorial trappings.
I mean...you meet this guy and I'm not exactly seeing honorable, just, fair, or knightly, here In almost any other setting, the Space Marines make the bad guys look like school yard bully's at best. The only reason the SM's seem like good guys is because you put them next to bad guys that are the literal incarnation of hell made flesh
I know the fluff varies - as it should, there is no hard and fast rule in 40k - but the video game SM is a fairly good representation of the worth of a SM. There may be those who don't like it, but some SM's are truly capable of feats normal humans by the thousands simply cannot do. War itself is fairly unpredictable, a SM could last through the slaughter of millions, or he could be the first decapitated by a stray bolter round. Overall however, the simple fact that the SM's were instrumental in bringing about the IoM - moreso due to the fact that the Emperor needed them to unite Earth and the Sol system- it seems heretical on so many levels to question why the SM's wouldn't be needed to defend it after 10,000 years.
Therefore, I firmly believe that SM's cannot exist without the rest of the IoM, and the IoM cannot exist without the SM's.
@ ENOZONE: I think they easily could.They already hold their own against orks/tyranids/tau and the many other big bads, what difference does a million more dudes in power make?
@ Vaktathi:
Well, the asthetics may differ, but I was going from what I've heard about Codex: Space Marines, the generic marine codex, although I haven't read it myself and could be misinformed. Yes, there are chapters which are crazy/vengeful/insane, but an ultramarine did spare a tau planet out of a sense of honor, if I'm not mistaken. So yeah, they are the most knightly thing around. Sure, the named chapters that get the codexes are different, but they represent individual chapters, not the generic marine.
Although you could go with your interpretation--even the space marines have fallen far from the initial values which created the Imperium in the first place. I've heard they were more human in the earlier editions, but I personally don't find that too interesting, even though there are chapters which demonstrate this very well.
Grey Templar wrote: They are the special forces of the Imperium, and a visable incarnation of the Emperor. And practically legend.
So much so that on many worlds, the average citizen may not actually believe that Space Marines are real. They are a story to get little children to behave.
This results in that, when trouble does arise and the Space Marines do show up, its enough to cow many worlds into submission.
A planet rebels for reasons not related to Chaos.
Then figures out of legend and the depths of time show up. Suddenly the Angels of Death that brought the Emperor's divine wrath to the enemies of the Imperium are there, and their guns are leveled at you.
Confronted by this, many rebellions are quelled with nary a shot fired. Its proof of the Emperor's will and all powerful might. He is no longer a figure in a stained glass window, he's very real.
Grey Templar puts it better than I ever could. If there is any (logical) reason to keep the SM around other than pure bureaucratic inertia it's this one.
Vaktathi wrote: We have all sorts of fluff that shows SM's recruit very slowly
Citation needed.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any sources detailing the rate of recruitment. The process of recruitment, the length of time spent in training, yes. But no hard numbers
if you've only got a million marines over a galaxy, they're not really seemingly going to be responding to conflicts much more than the Guard is, and thus their point as a "rapid reaction" force is moot.
Well, while 1,000,000 Marines is only a tiny fraction of the Imperiums soldiers, the Astartes naval forces comprise about 20% of the Imperiums entire naval strength. This lends a lot of credibility to their role as a reaction force.
Further, they are experienced and equipped to operate in a wide variety of environments. High or low gravity, toxic or no atmosphere, extreme temperatures, so on and so forth. This also makes it a lot easier for them to respond to any incident. While Guardsmen certainly could be equipped to operate in some of those environments, the extra time spent ensuring you send the right gear to the right regiment, then the right regiment to the right place is probably going to make your reaction force too late to be effective.
Vaktathi wrote: We have all sorts of fluff that shows SM's recruit very slowly
Citation needed.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any sources detailing the rate of recruitment. The process of recruitment, the length of time spent in training, yes. But no hard numbers
The Space Wolf trilogy portrayed only a very few recruits every few years, the BA's only once a generation according to the Index Astartes, etc.
Well, while 1,000,000 Marines is only a tiny fraction of the Imperiums soldiers, the Astartes naval forces comprise about 20% of the Imperiums entire naval strength. This lends a lot of credibility to their role as a reaction force.
Where's that 20% come from? I've never read it personally, though I'm sure I could be missing something.
However, going from some BFG fluff, Imperial Sector battlefleets typically field ~75 capital ships, being 200 LY x 200 LY x 200 LY or roughly 8,000,000 LY^3.
If you only assume that one sector out of every 1000 in the Milky Way galaxy is under Imperial control with a sector navy, with the galaxy being 100,000LY x 100,000LY x 1000LY on the small side, means there's 10,000,000,000,000 LY^3, divided by 1000 and split into 8,000,000 LY^3 sectors, you're talking 93,750 IN capital ships, not counting frigates, escorts, transports, etc. Each SM chapter may have, on average, half a dozen capital ships, say a Battle Barge and five Strike cruisers, some SM's will have more, some less. With a thousand chapters, that gives us 6,000 SM capital ships that must double as transports with each SM chapter having perhaps anywhere from 1-3 frigates per capital ship. That's closer to 6-7% of naval strength, and this is assuming the Imperial Navy is hilariously small next to the Imperial Guard by a factor of a thousand, ten thousand or more.
Further, they are experienced and equipped to operate in a wide variety of environments. High or low gravity, toxic or no atmosphere, extreme temperatures, so on and so forth. This also makes it a lot easier for them to respond to any incident. While Guardsmen certainly could be equipped to operate in some of those environments, the extra time spent ensuring you send the right gear to the right regiment, then the right regiment to the right place is probably going to make your reaction force too late to be effective.
Perhaps this might be true, but we've been shown in many GW fluff campaigns that it's not, and again, the vast majority of Imperial wars never see a single Space Marine, and if they can be won without the SM's doing everything that requires any degree of specialization, then it's hard to see why anything else is relevant.
I'm not trying to flat out hate on the SM's here, I'm really just trying to point out why GW's fluff doesn't really make any sot of sense and why 40k must really be seen as a dark Fantasy universe set in space with more than its fair share of hand-waving plot armor compared with any sort of science fiction or realism, even ignoring daemons and the like
Space marines are only really good for fighting Chaos and the Dark eldar, Because where a normal Guardsmen would run away in sheer horror at the sight of demons or grotesque masters of torture a space marine wouldn't and to be honest the Dark eldar get there asses handed to them by the Space marines all the time, A space marine strike cruiser was once EMP'd and pulled into Commoragh and it was just sat there disabled and the dark eldar forces in Commoragh tried for a month straight to get in and capture some of the space marines inside and they couldn't. The dark eldar also didn't know humans possessed any Psychic abilities and believe the ship unable to call for help but a Psyker sent out a distress signal and the call for help was answered by 3 space marine companys who just walked in and took the ship back. 1million Guardsmen could never achieve this in the middle of Commoragh.
Vaktathi wrote: However, going from some BFG fluff, Imperial Sector battlefleets typically field ~75 capital ships, being 200 LY x 200 LY x 200 LY or roughly 8,000,000 LY^3.
If you only assume that one sector out of every 1000 in the Milky Way galaxy is under Imperial control with a sector navy, with the galaxy being 100,000LY x 100,000LY x 1000LY on the small side, means there's 10,000,000,000,000 LY^3, divided by 1000 and split into 8,000,000 LY^3 sectors, you're talking 93,750 IN capital ships, not counting frigates, escorts, transports, etc. Each SM chapter may have, on average, half a dozen capital ships, say a Battle Barge and five Strike cruisers, some SM's will have more, some less. With a thousand chapters, that gives us 6,000 SM capital ships that must double as transports with each SM chapter having perhaps anywhere from 1-3 frigates per capital ship. That's closer to 6-7% of naval strength, and this is assuming the Imperial Navy is hilariously small next to the Imperial Guard by a factor of a thousand, ten thousand or more.
A couple of minor number changes:
BFG gives the total value of ships. Not just capital ships.
As such, a Marine fleet is more likely to include ~20 ships. Battlebarge estimates are usually given as 1 to 3, so I think 2 per chapter is a solid guess, and half a dozen strike cruisers at a minimum, and a dozen escorts. This gives us 20 per chapter, or 20,000 ships total.
if they can be won without the SM's doing everything that requires any degree of specialization, then it's hard to see why anything else is relevant.
Well, when GW writes a story or a campaign setting, it has to be as generic as possible. While we know that a lot of battles will be fought for habitable worlds, we also know that many other worlds are completely unsuitable to human life. Throwing millions and millions of Cadians or Catachans into an engagement is useless if the radiation levels kill them within minutes. But that makes for a very boring read where the reader cannot hear about the exploits of his favourite faction, so GW engineers a situation where a massive ground engagement is required, and the conditions happily match those here on Earth.
If the setting was a bit more accurate to the background, the IG would be a relic of the past. The Navy would be the main military army of the Imperium, and we'd all be playing BFG.
I'm not trying to flat out hate on the SM's here, I'm really just trying to point out why GW's fluff doesn't really make any sot of sense and why 40k must really be seen as a dark Fantasy universe set in space with more than its fair share of hand-waving plot armor compared with any sort of science fiction or realism, even ignoring daemons and the like
Vaktathi wrote: We have all sorts of fluff that shows SM's recruit very slowly
Citation needed.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any sources detailing the rate of recruitment. The process of recruitment, the length of time spent in training, yes. But no hard numbers
if you've only got a million marines over a galaxy, they're not really seemingly going to be responding to conflicts much more than the Guard is, and thus their point as a "rapid reaction" force is moot.
Well, while 1,000,000 Marines is only a tiny fraction of the Imperiums soldiers, the Astartes naval forces comprise about 20% of the Imperiums entire naval strength. This lends a lot of credibility to their role as a reaction force.
Further, they are experienced and equipped to operate in a wide variety of environments. High or low gravity, toxic or no atmosphere, extreme temperatures, so on and so forth. This also makes it a lot easier for them to respond to any incident. While Guardsmen certainly could be equipped to operate in some of those environments, the extra time spent ensuring you send the right gear to the right regiment, then the right regiment to the right place is probably going to make your reaction force too late to be effective.
For the record I think space marine reaction time has more to do with planetary strategy and battlefield tactics than galactic strategy though the any enviroment arguement is a good one.
Vaktathi wrote: We have all sorts of fluff that shows SM's recruit very slowly
Citation needed.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any sources detailing the rate of recruitment. The process of recruitment, the length of time spent in training, yes. But no hard numbers
Even the length of time spent in training seems to vary.
The Dark Angels managed to refine their process so well that their recruits went from initial implantation to full-fledged battle brother in just under 2 years (with a 98% success rate, to boot). Basic training was given to them while they were human/transforming acolytes. In Deliverance Lost (*spit* terrible book), Corax makes super Astartes within a few months that could match veterans in combat.
First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train. It takes each marine a decade at most to accomplish the scout, devastator and assualt marine rotations. Before that it takes a trainee 6 months to finish chapter trials and another few months of serguries before entering the great sleep. So a full fledged tactical marine can be forged in about 32 years.
And SM's only exists for the most important and vital of missions.
Like in todays military in America we only have round about 2,000 navy seals compared to the several million other military members we possess. Navy Seals only participate in the most vital missions.
Though a controversial comparison, I believe it does make the point. SM's are limited but they are extreme badasses. The IG are ultimately the true heroes of the Imperium despite their lack of acknowledgement. SM's exist only to boost mankinds strength and act as its iron arm of doom.
(Also, I only meant to use Americas miliary to give insight, please do not comment about America as it is not part of the discussion)
Asherian Command wrote: Because the emperor was not a very smart man and quite short sighted.
Like this thread necro.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Continued from previous thread (That was duplicate)
Psienesis wrote:
Yeah and how many space marine chapters go renegade again? They are probably causing more harm than good.
A lot, but not as many as Imperial Guard Regiments do.
To be honest it's usually singular marines or squads that go renegade. It is very rare that a chapter in its entirety turns.
True.
As I was saying in the previous thread, SM's are way to exaggerated by GW. It's very embarrassing for SM fanboys/girls to continue talking about SM's with how jacked on stupidity they are. I am a fair and compassionate writer and I am writing a story about SM's and their combat doctrine in an attempt to put more logic and believability in the entire faction. They are in need of logical resurrection...
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.
A timescale in the grim darkness of 40k is very important. Humanity needs to add more brute strength to the forces of the IG and the SM's suffice as such.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.
That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.
Does your average nation need three dozen , or four dozen, or fifteen dozen, different police forces , same thing with intelligence services, and all the little "elites" in the military forces. Different uniforms, patches, badges , names and titles are personally gratifying. As regards the practical side of things , every new and different organization or group represents a potential power base for the ambitious, and for the not so ambitious it means another bureaucracy available to conveniently fill your rice bowl. It very often means a terribly wasteful duplication of effort, and at worst the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, or they even deliberately work at cross-purposes due to turf battles and rivalry.
One does not have to suspend disbelief to buy Imperium fluff . On the contrary, one might rather not take a critical look at the here and now .
BrotherOfBone wrote: I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.
That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.
So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.
That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.
So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.
That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.
So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.
You have an erroneous concept of how vital time is to the Imperium.
When a Forge World that is supplying needed munitions to a Crusade Fleet comes under another threat, it is *absolutely* vital that said threat is dealt with as quickly as possible, for example.
And while it might take SM weeks to get from one world to the next, weeks are much, much better than the years it can take to assemble an IN fleet to transport 500 Regiments of Guardsmen from whatever hub-world they gather the ground forces at before loading them on starships to ferry them somewhere else. The SM possess their own Fleet resources.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.
That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.
So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.
You have an erroneous concept of how vital time is to the Imperium.
When a Forge World that is supplying needed munitions to a Crusade Fleet comes under another threat, it is *absolutely* vital that said threat is dealt with as quickly as possible, for example.
And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.
There's this thing about the fact that Space Marine is 100% not canon, Titus was never captain of the Ultramarines 2nd Company because it does not fit into the timeline, and, no, a Captain cannot butcher his way through dozens of Chaos Space Marines, Bloodletters and Renegade Guardsmen without taking a scratch and then go on to crush the head of a half-Demon Prince/Sorcerer.
And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.
Exhibit A: Space Marine
Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.
There is this thing about 40K and canon...
And regardless, the point stands.
Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train
Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.
They do take longer to train than guardsmen.
But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.
They aren't entirely useless.
BrotherOfBone wrote: There's this thing about the fact that Space Marine is 100% not canon, Titus was never captain of the Ultramarines 2nd Company because it does not fit into the timeline, and, no, a Captain cannot butcher his way through dozens of Chaos Space Marines, Bloodletters and Renegade Guardsmen without taking a scratch and then go on to crush the head of a half-Demon Prince/Sorcerer.
And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.
Exhibit A: Space Marine
Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.
There is this thing about 40K and canon...
And regardless, the point stands.
Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train
Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.
They do take longer to train than guardsmen.
But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.
They aren't entirely useless.
As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.
And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.
Exhibit A: Space Marine
Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.
There is this thing about 40K and canon...
And regardless, the point stands.
Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train
Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.
They do take longer to train than guardsmen.
But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.
They aren't entirely useless.
As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.
But on how fast they actually get there. They are quite different.
And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.
Exhibit A: Space Marine
Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.
There is this thing about 40K and canon...
And regardless, the point stands.
Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train
Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.
They do take longer to train than guardsmen.
But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.
They aren't entirely useless.
As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.
But on how fast they actually get there.
And again I return to my point that Space Marines are also often of fighting wars in far-flung systems, and won't always be there to respond. Also, reactions from local forces don't often take very long as most sectors have their own fleet of defence vessels which could also be used to transport Guard units.
And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.
Exhibit A: Space Marine
Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.
There is this thing about 40K and canon...
And regardless, the point stands.
Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train
Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.
They do take longer to train than guardsmen.
But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.
They aren't entirely useless.
As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.
I respect your fervor for IG, but do you honestly believe the IoM is fine without SM's? I really don't see how the absence of SM's could in any way benefit the Imperium.
And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.
Exhibit A: Space Marine
Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.
There is this thing about 40K and canon...
And regardless, the point stands.
Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train
Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.
They do take longer to train than guardsmen.
But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.
They aren't entirely useless.
As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.
Several catches though. For starters, space opera. Second claim, Sci Fantasy. Now are SM numbers preposterously low? Yes. That said, even IG are quite guilty of this along with the total population of several planets and the total number of Imperial planets. Add to that, this is a world where close combat is still quite a thing, mages run around the place, and people worship their lasguns to an extent. A time where the scientists are merely fools operating under traditions worshipping machines and dogmatically ignoring new discovery or creation. Why do SM exist? Well, in all honesty, why do most things exist in 40k? Why are the Tau still alive? Why is it that the daemon princes that were previously primarchs all largely hiding in the warp with minimal reveals to reality? Really there is no reasoning to it all.
In terms of the world, keep in mind that SM are, if memory serves me, known for having faster warp drives, capable of flying to planets quicker. Add to that, they are entirely separate from the standard operations meaning that they don't really fall to idiotic leaders that send them to pointless battles as often as guardsmen do.
I think that if the resources used to create, equip and maintain Space Marines were used to create, equip and maintain Guard units then the Imperium would be a much better place.
Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.
The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.
Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.
The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.
Swastakowey wrote: Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.
The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.
Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.
The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.
Space Magic which is indeed what the entire world is run by. Heck, the ships couldn't even get anywhere if it weren't for space magic
The reason why Space Marines are faster is because they are a "combined arms" style army that doesn't have to wait for the Munitorium to send commands to hop over and do something. In all seriousness, 1 million marines is basically insignificant but that's really more because the people that write these games don't seem to understand how wars work. Heck, I was shockced by how low many platoon sizes are in 40k.
Swastakowey wrote: Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.
The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.
Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.
The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.
I agree that SM's are stupidly low in numbers. Unbearably low. The legion sizes were more believable but 1,000 strong chapters? Makes me sick, but dont let GW's idiotic view on reality fool you. SM's could seem a lot more better, a lot more effective should their narratives make at least half as much sense as they make now. SM's...as I said need to be logically resurrected.
Swastakowey wrote: Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.
The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.
Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.
The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.
Space Magic which is indeed what the entire world is run by. Heck, the ships couldn't even get anywhere if it weren't for space magic
The reason why Space Marines are faster is because they are a "combined arms" style army that doesn't have to wait for the Munitorium to send commands to hop over and do something. In all seriousness, 1 million marines is basically insignificant but that's really more because the people that write these games don't seem to understand how wars work. Heck, I was shockced by how low many platoon sizes are in 40k.
Yep pretty much. Everything is out of wack in 40k. To how the human brain works, to physics and statistics. Some people like that kind of thing, others dont.
But I think its incredibly important to realize those facts. (Ironically about something nonfactual haha).
Swastakowey wrote: Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.
The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.
Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.
The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.
I agree that SM's are stupidly low in numbers. Unbearably low. The legion sizes were more believable but 1,000 strong chapters? Makes me sick, but dont let GW's idiotic view on reality fool you. SM's could seem a lot more better, a lot more effective should their narratives make at least half as much sense as they make now. SM's...as I said need to be logically resurrected.
I agree. They need huge rewrite. They need to be properly thought out and be made less cartoonish. Leave all that stuff for the orks.
The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.
They have a point that is already fulfilled by specialist Guard regiments that far, far outnumber the Space Marines in terms of manpower and cost-efficiency.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.
They are huge. Loud. Stupid (charge!?) and more importantly dont arrive anywhere subtlety. Humans that can actually stealthily do things should be doing anything that involves killing a target. Not a giant drop pod assault that would be downed in seconds from light AAA fire as they slowly descend upon their targets. I mean they arent self sustaining like the guard are so why would you send them behind enemy lines? Light infantry such as airbourne troops etc go behind enemy lines. Even though they are light and fast they still dont do much besides hold critical locations SOMETIMES before reinforcements arrive. There is a reason there are very few airbourne troops around today. Their use is limited and casualties are heavy.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.
They are huge. Loud. Stupid (charge!?) and more importantly dont arrive anywhere subtlety. Humans that can actually stealthily do things should be doing anything that involves killing a target. Not a giant drop pod assault that would be downed in seconds from light AAA fire as they slowly descend upon their targets. I mean they arent self sustaining like the guard are so why would you send them behind enemy lines? Light infantry such as airbourne troops etc go behind enemy lines. Even though they are light and fast they still dont do much besides hold critical locations SOMETIMES before reinforcements arrive. There is a reason there are very few airbourne troops around today. Their use is limited and casualties are heavy.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.
They are huge. Loud. Stupid (charge!?) and more importantly dont arrive anywhere subtlety. Humans that can actually stealthily do things should be doing anything that involves killing a target. Not a giant drop pod assault that would be downed in seconds from light AAA fire as they slowly descend upon their targets. I mean they arent self sustaining like the guard are so why would you send them behind enemy lines? Light infantry such as airbourne troops etc go behind enemy lines. Even though they are light and fast they still dont do much besides hold critical locations SOMETIMES before reinforcements arrive. There is a reason there are very few airbourne troops around today. Their use is limited and casualties are heavy.
A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.
You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.
Ashiraya wrote: A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.
You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.
Because its a lot of fun to argue fiction, arguing non fiction is serious and would rather do that in person. Also as stated before i think Space marines CAN be cool. Just with some real thought put behind them. I mean, knights in space would be very cool! Not the chunky hooligans they are now.
Also many of the things said annoy me as they go against real world examples with the excuse of space magic. Which I find is a poor excuse for things. I prefer my stories to be well thought out and well executed. Which I personally dont see in marines, despite what many claim of them.
I prefer it when the Space marines are just missionary type knights questing for relics and so forth. Like hunting on some distant planets for lost artifacts or defending a precious book from harm on some remote colony. Much like 99% of the sisters jobs. to me thats a lot cooler and somewhat a realistic expectation of their potential, except they would be way cooler than the sisters. In my opinion.
Ashiraya wrote: A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.
You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.
Because its a lot of fun to argue fiction, arguing non fiction is serious and would rather do that in person. Also as stated before i think Space marines CAN be cool. Just with some real thought put behind them. I mean, knights in space would be very cool! Not the chunky hooligans they are now.
Also many of the things said annoy me as they go against real world examples with the excuse of space magic. Which I find is a poor excuse for things. I prefer my stories to be well thought out and well executed. Which I personally dont see in marines, despite what many claim of them.
Space Marines in their current design break logic in many places, like many other races. They are OK anyway. 40K is like, the place to go when you want some illogical action sci-fi-fantasy-amalgamation. It's not quite DBZ in space but it's not that far off, especially when we bring things like psykers and primarchs into the equation.
I respect your preferences, but 40K seems like an extremely poor choice for you, considering what you are looking for.
The tabletop guys who are basically guardsmen with +1 in some stats and upgraded equipment? That is not fluff Marines.
This is fluff marines.
There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.
Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.
The fluff varies but generally 40K overall walks more into the area of 'mythology' than 'history'. It's like, you want Empire: Total War, but instead you play Age of Mythology and complain it's unrealistic.
40K is not realistic. It's not intended to be, it has never been, and it will never be. It will never be logical. It will never stretch your capacity for suspending disbelief to something less than its limit. It's the way the setting as a whole works.
BrotherOfBone wrote: There's this thing about the fact that Space Marine is 100% not canon, Titus was never captain of the Ultramarines 2nd Company because it does not fit into the timeline, and, no, a Captain cannot butcher his way through dozens of Chaos Space Marines, Bloodletters and Renegade Guardsmen without taking a scratch and then go on to crush the head of a half-Demon Prince/Sorcerer.
It's ridiculous to comprehend.
Even if Spacemarine is a bad example, it's still a good example.
Sure, one Marine Captain and a couple of bros might not be able to literally slaughter several armies and brutalize a Demon Prince and a warboss one after the other.. But Space Marines are an elite force which operates on lighting strikes and swift thrusts. An assault upon a Forgeworld would literally be their best case scenario, because they can exert critical amounts of force in critical areas to heavily handicap the enemy. Cut supply lines, take out drops, murder leaders en-route, disable crucial systems, ect.
Space Marines don't fight like the Guard unless they're pinned down and have to. Fluff wise they prefer guerrilla warfare, and they're supposed to be very good at it.
Swastakowey wrote: Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.
The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.
Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.
The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.
Space Marines are always fighting, but they are not always at war.
The Dark Angels may respond to a threat, but it's a very rare call for help which sees the entire chapter mobilized. Usually fewer than 100 marines are sent (it's more like 10-50, honestly). They arrive and they wage a precise campaign where they use superior tactics, training, and equipment to exert extreme force upon vulnerable portions of the enemy and break the foes back. With that done they may or may not assist the local defense crews with clean-up before heading back.
This isn't what's primarily written about marines because, and let's be real, marines stomping on the throats of weaklings whilst using hit-and-run tactics against an enemy that can't hope to stand up to them without superior numbers that they are never allowed to bear, just isn't that interesting if it's constantly done. Glorious battles chalk full of bolter porn have a much larger appeal to Black Library consumers than novelizations with short and unexciting combat sequences broken up by extensive planning and deployment actions.
Back on subject, because a Chapter rarely goes anywhere in force and does not have to deal with the horrifying amount of red tape that the IG and other forces do, they are absolutely required. A huge amount of worlds would be lost before the guard could respond if the marines weren't there for rapid deployment. Having 10,000 more guardsmen for each marine means diddly if it takes said guardsmen three years to show up on a planet that needs help NOW and won't be around in that long.
Ashiraya wrote: A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.
You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.
Because its a lot of fun to argue fiction, arguing non fiction is serious and would rather do that in person. Also as stated before i think Space marines CAN be cool. Just with some real thought put behind them. I mean, knights in space would be very cool! Not the chunky hooligans they are now.
Also many of the things said annoy me as they go against real world examples with the excuse of space magic. Which I find is a poor excuse for things. I prefer my stories to be well thought out and well executed. Which I personally dont see in marines, despite what many claim of them.
Space Marines in their current design break logic in many places, like many other races. They are OK anyway. 40K is like, the place to go when you want some illogical action sci-fi-fantasy-amalgamation. It's not quite DBZ in space but it's not that far off, especially when we bring things like psykers and primarchs into the equation.
I respect your preferences, but 40K seems like an extremely poor choice for you, considering what you are looking for.
The tabletop guys who are basically guardsmen with +1 in some stats and upgraded equipment? That is not fluff Marines.
This is fluff marines.
There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.
Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.
The fluff varies but generally 40K overall walks more into the area of 'mythology' than 'history'. It's like, you want Empire: Total War, but instead you play Age of Mythology and complain it's unrealistic. 40K is not realistic. It's not intended to be, it has never been, and it will never be. It will never be logical. It will never stretch your capacity for suspending disbelief to something less than its limit. It's the way the setting as a whole works.
40K fluff is bad, I know. But there are a lot of ideas which come from real events. Many of the regiments have very obvious inspiration drawn from real times/people, many events in 40k (if you can dig deep enough in the more serious stuff) are drawn from our past as well. It has a lot of potential. I dont think you actually know what I want
40K, thankfully, is open ended. I can make whatever I want from history and create it into an Imperial Regiment. This is where the gold in 40k is. Its not the crappy stats or bull stories GW comes up with. Its the ideas and foundations which we are free to build up on and change as we please. I can make my own version of 40k and ignore the childish stories. I like what I can do with the setting as its over all a great idea. Just so stupidly done (in my opinion).
I mean, that passage you quoted, is pretty bad. Ignoring all the problems with that passage I will pick out the biggest one. The fact that there is deadly gas leaking onto the street that is USED TO KILL, and rebel civilians come out cheering on that very street unharmed by that gas that would be spewing out of the chemical tank, goes to show how little thought is put into it. Why would the writer mention that specific Bane Wolfs story, and then forget it happened immediately after? There should be rebels fleeing from that battle as soon as they could rather than inhale deadly poison. Its just lazy writing. I found this the case in many 40k books and I couldnt finish any except Ghaunts ghosts. For some reason i actually liked that series.
I would argue mythology is more well thought out than Space marines are.
Its a daft question really mate, I mean, just think about it logically for a moment and apply real world mechanics. When I was trying to earn my green beret, they told me that our basic training cost $100,000 a pop, and that was why we had to sign contracts and were not allowed to leave until we hit a certain term, because the government doesnt want to spend a gakload of the taxpayers cash and then see them bugger off 6 months later. Its the same for every military course, you can do a two year telecommunications course that is worth a lot on civvie street, so they make you sign up for 9 years or have to pay them a gakload of cash to get out early.
So, why don't we get rid of the Navy SEALs, feth all the green berets out of Fort Bragg and just use the gakky National Guard for everything?
Special soldiers always have a use, and nothing about the fictional 40k universe contradicts that. There are thousands of instances where Space Marines are hyper efficient. Ripping a POI from a fortified world, delivering a precise strike or laying some demo charges at a critical point in an enemy stronghold, assassinating a leader, they would be perfect for it, better than a regular human SF trooper.
They are absolute killing machines, and having them line up on the battlefield for a mass battle just like on the tabletop is not what they are intended for.
There are over 2500 active SEALS. We could have had them all manning 22 different FOBS in Helmand province, but we don't, we use regular grunts, because special soldiers should always have a special use.
To be fair, even though I rather liked Ghaunts Ghosts, it's also rather unrealistic many times as well with the character hurtling around with a preposterous level of plot armour.
In the case of the bane wolf, nobody said it had been leaking anywhere near the rebels. It most likely disperses quickly. Notice how it was blown up in the middle of the Guard lines, where it caused death for dozens of meters around it. Not illogical at all. Otherwise, no problems with that passage, other than it has your favourite faction being beaten by a faction you don't like in a way you don't like.
mattyrm wrote: Its a daft question really mate, I mean, just think about it logically for a moment and apply real world mechanics.
When I was trying to earn my green beret, they told me that our basic training cost $100,000 a pop, and that was why we had to sign contracts and were not allowed to leave until we hit a certain term.
Its the same for every military course, you can do a two year telecommunications course, they make you sign up for 9 years or have to pay them a gakload of cash.
So, why don't we get rid of the Navy SEALs, feth all the green berets out of Fort Bragg and just use the gakky National Guard for everything?
Special soldiers always have a use, and nothing about the fictional 40k universe contradicts that.
There are thousands of instances where Space Marines are hyper efficient. Ripping a POI from a chaos held world, delivering a precise strike to an enemy stronghold, assassinating a leader, they would be perfect for it, better than a regular human SF trooper.
They are absolute killing machines, and having them line up on the battlefield for a mass battle just like on the tabletop is not what they are intended for.
There are over 2500 active SEALS. We could have had them all manning 22 different FOBS in Helmand province, and we don't, we use grunts, because special soldiers should always have a special use.
But dont navy seals have the gear, training and set up to be effective at what they do? And there are Guard that do exactly what navy seals do?
You will know more than i do.
But Space Marines have rocket propelled noisy guns of death with small amounts of ammo. Are huge and weigh a crap ton. Do not look and are no stealthy by a long shot (due to size, wight and so forth), fluff wise they frequently are seen screaming and charging into combat. They rely on body armour instead of cover etc.
I do not see Marines possesing any qualities that make them useful as special soldiers. They seem like more of a hindrance. Especially when there are humans who do special jobs in the fluff.
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StarTrotter wrote: To be fair, even though I rather liked Ghaunts Ghosts, it's also rather unrealistic many times as well with the character hurtling around with a preposterous level of plot armour.
Yea, but I thought I better admit that I like it. I was about to say i didnt finish any of the books but that would be lying haha. I understand it was not very realistic.
100 000$ a pop? Holy gak we spend more on ammo alone for a single infantryman course here. And that's not including basic training...
*coughs*
Stormtroopers could be the special soldiers, because well, they kinda do that in the fluff, and the new 'dex doesn't limit e'm to 10 000 anymore, I think.
Swastakowey wrote: Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.
The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.
Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.
The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.
This is also a bad argument, the larger a force, the harder it is to administer.
I have carried out military operations in all sorts of formations. It works like this.
Troop (24 men) Operation goes like a charm
Company (100+) Operation goes well
Unit (600+) Operation becomes unwieldy
Brigade (several thousand) Operation is a fething nightmare
Division - Absolute clusterfeth
Multi National Operation (I once worked with the French Foreign Legion, Spanish Marines, Dutch Marines, Yank Marines, and a platoon of Irish dog walkers) - Nobody has a clue what is going on ever, and the of the Dutch soldiers start playing volleyball.
Bigger is never better!
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Bobthehero wrote: 100 000$ a pop? Holy gak we spend more on ammo alone for a single infantryman course here. And that's not including basic training...
fething hell who are you buying your ammo off? The Taliban?
No worries, I couldn't help but make little jokes. I tend to treat 40k much like I treat Star Wars honestly. I look at it and like its premise (the original films in the case of Star Wars). I then promptly ignore about 90% of the expanded universe and only grab things like Admiral Thrawn because good gosh some of the stuff is absolutely terrible and contradictory.
From what I gather, SM are more akin to shock troops really. Fast, mobile, quick to strike. At least in concept. When it comes to actual writing, they go all over the place. Then there's things like sneaky Marines (Raven and Night Lords come to mind). I say this all understanding that to even enjoy anything past the concept of 40k, you have to basically put logic beside the door.
StarTrotter wrote: No worries, I couldn't help but make little jokes. I tend to treat 40k much like I treat Star Wars honestly. I look at it and like its premise (the original films in the case of Star Wars). I then promptly ignore about 90% of the expanded universe and only grab things like Admiral Thrawn because good gosh some of the stuff is absolutely terrible and contradictory.
From what I gather, SM are more akin to shock troops really. Fast, mobile, quick to strike. At least in concept. When it comes to actual writing, they go all over the place. Then there's things like sneaky Marines (Raven and Night Lords come to mind). I say this all understanding that to even enjoy anything past the concept of 40k, you have to basically put logic beside the door.
Thats how I feel. Although it bugs me, there is still lots to like about 40k. I just usually wish I could use logic and enjoy my game. Funnily enough I also like starwars, but once it leaves the movies I dislike most of it too!
I would love to reply to all the people who quoted me, but I have to do spread sheets. Just know I would have written a long response if I had time. Dont get a job doing spread sheets etc. Its turns you into someone who cannot like 40k style stuff
But my stance is clear and to the guy who said bigger isnt better. thats exactly why I hate Space marines. they are bigger in everything except where it counts Which by that I mean there are too few to realistically respond to calls of aid. With no reason to be faster at it than any other force designed to do the same thing.
StarTrotter wrote: To be fair, even though I rather liked Ghaunts Ghosts, it's also rather unrealistic many times as well with the character hurtling around with a preposterous level of plot armour.
Well yeah, thats the other good argument, because its fiction and its fething great. I aboslutely loved the GG books.
The Space Marines are hard bastards too, and we like hard bastards in fiction.
From Wolverine and Yoda to Jack Reacher and Sherlock Holmes, you don't want realism, you want escapism and awesome sauce, and superhumans with solid ribcages and two hearts, and the ability to crush skulls with one hand and spit acid in peoples faces, is fething awesome. Space Marines look brilliant as well, they got me into 40k as a kid, and I will always appreciate the appeal of awesome for that reason alone.
I wouldn't want t watch a Jackie Chan film if he got his ass beat as soon as more than three guys showed up either!
One thing worth noting is the inspirational appeal of space marines. these are living demigods, as far as the people of the Imperium are concerned. the presence of even a small unit of space marines at a battle proably does WONDERS to bolster morale of guardsmen regiments.
BrianDavion wrote: One thing worth noting is the inspirational appeal of space marines. these are living demigods, as far as the people of the Imperium are concerned. the presence of even a small unit of space marines at a battle proably does WONDERS to bolster morale of guardsmen regiments.
As would the presence of a unit of highly trained special forces.
> Space Marines, the Imperium's most expensive morale-booster
BrianDavion wrote: One thing worth noting is the inspirational appeal of space marines. these are living demigods, as far as the people of the Imperium are concerned. the presence of even a small unit of space marines at a battle proably does WONDERS to bolster morale of guardsmen regiments.
As would the presence of a unit of highly trained special forces.
> Space Marines, the Imperium's most expensive morale-booster
Space marines are ultra elite special operations troops, able to function in almost any environment including void operations.
There expensive but there not line troops like guards but ultra mobile self sufficient units able to furful a huge range of tasks.
Yes legion scale makes far more sense, but there not ment for foot operations or attrition but fast strikes, difficult or insanely dangerous missions.
Guarfdsman have limitations, but the marines are far more capable.
jhe90 wrote: Space marines are ultra elite special operations troops, able to function in almost any environment including void operations.
There expensive but there not line troops like guards but ultra mobile self sufficient units able to furful a huge range of tasks.
Yes legion scale makes far more sense, but there not ment for foot operations or attrition but fast strikes, difficult or insanely dangerous missions.
Guarfdsman have limitations, but the marines are far more capable.
No, Guardsmen don't have limitations, this is what people don't understand. Anything a Space Marine can do, there is a regiment or unit that can do it better than they can. Void combat can be done by any of the specialist Imperial Navy units.
IMO they're like Vanguard Veterans; Good, but too expensive to make them worth it, and everything they do is already fulfilled by another unit who can do it better than they can and for less.
Guardsmen are very limited. You can say there's a regiment for everything all you like but shockingly this one regiment can't cover the Imperium and there aren't enough regiments like them to do it either. A Space Marine Chapter is better because not only are they better they can deal with all the situations equally well. Catachans are only good in a jungle. Space Marines can be good in and out of it.
The Imperium is one huge war machine. Space Marine, alone, are completly useless, guardsmen alone are useless, Sisters of Battle alone are useless. Here is my vision of the imperium military. The body armor is the PDF (planetery defense force) they are always the first one to see the fight and most of them are pretty similar in equipment to guardsmen. There job is to take punch and hold the line until the renforcement arrives. Space Marines are the sword: quick, precise, powerful, adaptable and complex to use properly. They start to attck the ennemy in the chink of his armor and help protect vital things like a specific hill, a fort, etc. The guards are the hammer, they are like PDF but usually better trained and more experimented. They are slow to deploy but easy to use. They destroy the ennemy who's already hold down by the PDF and on crippled because of the Space Marines. The Sisters are shield, they usually are always on site when the fighting start and they provide an extra defensive capacity to stop the ennemy where he is the strongest, push them back and strike when he expose a weakness. The Scions are the knife. They strike where even the sword can hardly reach to cripple the hability of the ennemy to attack or defend itself. The inquisition are the eyes and the brain. They reveal the ennemy plots and strategy, find its weakness and show to all others what to do to win. The navy are the legs, they carry and support everybody. Finally the titan legions are the canons, when all else fail, big guns will help you win. That's what makes the Imperium a superpower. They have a very advance system of defense and attack.
jhe90 wrote: Space marines are ultra elite special operations troops, able to function in almost any environment including void operations.
There expensive but there not line troops like guards but ultra mobile self sufficient units able to furful a huge range of tasks.
Yes legion scale makes far more sense, but there not ment for foot operations or attrition but fast strikes, difficult or insanely dangerous missions.
Guarfdsman have limitations, but the marines are far more capable.
No, Guardsmen don't have limitations, this is what people don't understand. Anything a Space Marine can do, there is a regiment or unit that can do it better than they can. Void combat can be done by any of the specialist Imperial Navy units.
IMO they're like Vanguard Veterans; Good, but too expensive to make them worth it, and everything they do is already fulfilled by another unit who can do it better than they can and for less.
Remind me the last time the Imperial Guard fought off onslaughts of Chaos Daemons or could contain plagues that spread memetically. Guardsmen are only useful for the average enemies- Chaos Cultists, Orks, Rebellions, and Tau. Guardsmen are absolutely worthless against Eldar, Daemons, Necrons, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids- you're just throwing meat and equipment into the grinder and you're not going to get it back.
jhe90 wrote: Space marines are ultra elite special operations troops, able to function in almost any environment including void operations.
There expensive but there not line troops like guards but ultra mobile self sufficient units able to furful a huge range of tasks.
Yes legion scale makes far more sense, but there not ment for foot operations or attrition but fast strikes, difficult or insanely dangerous missions.
Guarfdsman have limitations, but the marines are far more capable.
No, Guardsmen don't have limitations, this is what people don't understand. Anything a Space Marine can do, there is a regiment or unit that can do it better than they can. Void combat can be done by any of the specialist Imperial Navy units.
IMO they're like Vanguard Veterans; Good, but too expensive to make them worth it, and everything they do is already fulfilled by another unit who can do it better than they can and for less.
Can an IG captain kill an ork warboss? Can IG fight the indescribable horrors of the warp and combat daemons? That's cute. That is really cute.
I love IG don't get me wrong but they would be a complete train wreck without the Adeptus Astartes, I promise. There are things IG can't do without marines and things marines can't do without the guard. Guardsmen can absolutely obliterate enemies with attrition. They can hold ground far better than marines can. They can do a range of other stuff but than comes the problems of much more complicated scenarios.
Like The Battle of Kvariam Alpha. IG were completely unable to engage the Tau under water with any military affect so they called in the SW's. The SW's dropped Land Raiders full of terminators deep down into the sea bed and properly went to combat with the encoaching Tau. It was a despserate fight but the wolves emerged victorious. Had SM's not existed, that battle would have been unwinnable.
The Emperor's original intention, in His fight against the Chaos Powers, was to create firstly, the Primarchs, and then a whole race of super-humans who would be immune to the influence of Chaos. This plan did not succeed as the foetal Primarchs were scattered through time and space by the Chaos Gods. The Primarchs could not be replicated and in any case the imminent birth of Slaanesh forced the Emperor's hand. Using left-over genetic material from the Primarchs discreet biological organs could be created that would give an ordinary human some of the abilities of the Primarchs and so the Space Marines were created.
Keep in mind that at this time the Imperium consisted only of the Sol System and the Emperor created a force of super-humans that could crush and/or liberate worlds quickly and efficiently when numberless hordes of ordinary human soldiers were not available. The Emperor made Space Marines to enhance the limited human supply He controlled to do what was necessary at that time but they were always only a necessity which the Emperor never deliberately set out to create.
However, the Space Marines self-generate the organs required to make more Space Marines and ignoring whatever artificial requirements are put upon potential aspirants any human male who is compatible can become a Space Marine; arguably this makes Space Marines more resource friendly than human soldiers.
Chapters are also able to maintain and create their own arms and armour which again, adds a level of autonomy regular human armies cannot match. Whether the argument is that this is an artificial arrangement (ten thousand years of pacts and honour debts, the hoarding of knowledge by the Mechanicus, relative techno-phobia of most humans, the dictates and limitations imposed upon the Imperium's fighting bodies by Guilliman et cetera) is largely irrelevant, that is the way the Imperium functions and within that system a Chapter has the means to create more Marines and more equipment. Many Chapters are designated Adeptus, meaning they control their own world plus the natural resources it contains which they need to make their armaments and even for fleet based Chapters it seems fairly likely that they are able to take whatever raw materials they require from whatever source they choose.
In essence the Imperium spends almost zero resources on Space Marines, it is only at times of direst need that a Founding is decreed by the High Lords and that the Imperium spends resources creating Space Marines in order to combat very specific threats, presumably ones that regular human armies cannot defeat or at least not quickly enough. After that the Chapters take care of themselves and survive with little help or interference from the Imperium beyond whatever oaths the Chapter is sworn to uphold. Pacts made with the Mechanicus, as an allied empire to the Imperium in its own right, are really a separate issue as the Imperium or more specifically the Administratum, as it is this body which allocates resources to create and maintain the Imperium's standing armies, has no direct control over the Mechanicus.
So, 'why do Space Marines even exist?', because, basically. Space Marines make more Space Marines, they can and do perform battlefield operations that ordinary human troops couldn't or would struggle to achieve. They have a reputation that, even if you think it is over-hyped, actually works to cow their enemies. They give prestige and kudos to any Imperial Commander that can procure their assistance, and, again, their reputation enhances morale even if, objectively, you might want to argue that it is more of a placebo effect than a real one.
The Legions are a relic of a galaxy totally hostile to human life. The Emperor engineered them as shock troopers to fight in places and against foes where the Imperial Army couldn't hope to triumph but had no desire to use the fleet to scour the world.
If it were up to me, worlds like Murder would have been virus bombed, along with every world in the Ullanor subsector.
No, Guardsmen don't have limitations, this is what people don't understand. Anything a Space Marine can do, there is a regiment or unit that can do it better than they can. Void combat can be done by any of the specialist Imperial Navy units.
IMO they're like Vanguard Veterans; Good, but too expensive to make them worth it, and everything they do is already fulfilled by another unit who can do it better than they can and for less.
In short, there are over a million Imperial Guardsmen at any given time per Space Marine. This does not factor in PDF, Navy, Arbites, or Ecclesiastical forces, and my numbers are intentionally conservative.
So, I would amend your statement, BrotherOfBone, to "anything a Space Marine can do, there is an army of Guardsmen that can do it too."
Do you need to drop behind enemy lines to secure vital points? Drop troops (Elysians and Harkoni spring to mind). Need to take a fortress? Siege units will do it (Krieg, most notably, but any unit will work if supported by sufficient artillery and shovelwork). Bad things on a jungle planet? Ice planet? Desert planet? Guardsmen from all of those, and more, stand ready. Hell, need to take out bad things on a planet with an atmosphere toxic to humans? Wait, did that on Armageddon by giving soldiers protective gear. Hell, Stormtroopers by themselves could replace a lot of what Space Marines do, though they would need a lot more of them.
Don't get me wrong, Space Marines are all sorts of cool, and fluffy, and an integral part of the 40k universe. However, the only reason the Imperium of Man needs Space Marines is because Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale. Oh, and because of grim darkness and all that.
edit: Because I had this idea when I was sitting on the Porcelain Throne, consider the Imperial propag-I MEAN thing we've all heard about a Space Marine being the equivalent of a thousand men.
Ok.
So, if there are 1,000,000 (one million) Space Marines, and each is as strong as 1,000 (one thousand) men, that means that all the Space Marines have the equivalent strength of 1,000,000,000 (one billion) men. Formidable, sure, but....my numbers show that the Imperium of Man inducts over a 156 billion men each year. So, every year the Imperium of Man is in existence, they create the military strength of 156 times all of the Imperium's Space Marines. They'll do it next year, too, and the year after that, and the year after that.....
No, Guardsmen don't have limitations, this is what people don't understand. Anything a Space Marine can do, there is a regiment or unit that can do it better than they can. Void combat can be done by any of the specialist Imperial Navy units.
IMO they're like Vanguard Veterans; Good, but too expensive to make them worth it, and everything they do is already fulfilled by another unit who can do it better than they can and for less.
In short, there are over a million Imperial Guardsmen at any given time per Space Marine. This does not factor in PDF, Navy, Arbites, or Ecclesiastical forces, and my numbers are intentionally conservative.
So, I would amend your statement, BrotherOfBone, to "anything a Space Marine can do, there is an army of Guardsmen that can do it too."
Do you need to drop behind enemy lines to secure vital points? Drop troops (Elysians and Harkoni spring to mind). Need to take a fortress? Siege units will do it (Krieg, most notably, but any unit will work if supported by sufficient artillery and shovelwork). Bad things on a jungle planet? Ice planet? Desert planet? Guardsmen from all of those, and more, stand ready. Hell, need to take out bad things on a planet with an atmosphere toxic to humans? Wait, did that on Armageddon by giving soldiers protective gear. Hell, Stormtroopers by themselves could replace a lot of what Space Marines do, though they would need a lot more of them.
Don't get me wrong, Space Marines are all sorts of cool, and fluffy, and an integral part of the 40k universe. However, the only reason the Imperium of Man needs Space Marines is because Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale. Oh, and because of grim darkness and all that.
edit: Because I had this idea when I was sitting on the Porcelain Throne, consider the Imperial propag-I MEAN thing we've all heard about a Space Marine being the equivalent of a thousand men.
Ok.
So, if there are 1,000,000 (one million) Space Marines, and each is as strong as 1,000 (one thousand) men, that means that all the Space Marines have the equivalent strength of 1,000,000,000 (one billion) men. Formidable, sure, but....my numbers show that the Imperium of Man inducts over a 156 billion men each year. So, every year the Imperium of Man is in existence, they create the military strength of 156 times all of the Imperium's Space Marines. They'll do it next year, too, and the year after that, and the year after that.....
Even so, Marines can do what any of the Guard can do faster, better and with less damage to infrastructure and considerably less manpower.
... and if the IN gets blown out of the sky above a world, all those IG already on the ground get to die there, because they have no means of inter-stellar travel.
Space Marines do. That's what I mean by "rapid response force". When a Chapter "gets the call", it has all the resources it needs, on hand, to respond to the threat. It has the troops, the armor, the weapons, the support personnel, the tanks... everything needed to wage war, and wage war *now* is on hand with a Space Marine Chapter.
Not so with the IG. Rare is it that a bunch of Regiments capable of performing an offensive action across a broad range of fronts (infantry, armor, artillery, etc) are sitting in one place with ready Naval transports immediately on hand. It can take the DM *months*, if not years, to get all the pieces in place to initiate the effort.
Not to mention the hilarious administrative errors we see in certain publications. In the last codex, remember that IG regiment that was declared traitors long after they actually had been wiped out?
Sillycybin wrote: Power armor is its own utility. In any other sci-fi universe the benefits of power armor alone is apparent.
If anyone here read the Siege of vraks and consider how many troopers died to heavy stubber/bolter fire then consider the subsequent armour penetration value of said weapons, a tac sqaud would have been able to spearhead a push across no mans in vraks and the guard would have taken alot less losses.
So could Grenadiers or Stormtroopers, without having to invest the resources Space Marines require.
Anyone trying to mathhammer spacemarine to guardsmen number stats is wasting their time. First of all it's likely there are more then a million spacemarines in 40k probably a couple million, and if were going to use math, just remember there are GW stats of imperial super tanks have 20mm of armor. GW can't into appropriate numbers.
GW being utterly incompetent when it comes to math and knowledge of military affairs is a position I've had for more than a decade now. I recall in one of the Chapter Approved books the Land Raider was given as having the equivalent of 495mm of conventional steel armor....which means that a T-80 has thicker armor. I also recall a passage in one of the Imperial Guard codicies that had some IG general boasting about his billy-badass Imperial Guard battlegroup of like half a million men. Yawn. Red Army did it better.
But, GW's military and math incompetence is precisely the point in why Space Marines are an insignificant part of the Imperium's defenses. Again, for every Space Marine, there are as many Imperial Guardsmen as there are soldiers in the active-duty US Army. By the simple expedient of opening up more Scholas and training more Stormtroopers, you can replace most jobs Space Marines do (I say "most jobs" because I can't think of a job that Space Marines can do better than a division or so of Stormies, but I'll allow for the possibility).
Now, you say that, "First of all it's likely there are more then a million spacemarines in 40k probably a couple million"
Citation needed.
I have only ever heard the "thousand chapters of a thousand Marines" number. 1,000 chapters of 1,000 Marines is a million marines. But, have it your way.
If there are 2.5 million Space Marines? That brings it to almost 500,000 Imperial Guardsmen per Space Marine.
5 million? About 250,000 Guardsmen per Space Marine.
Again, those numbers do not include PDF, Arbites, Navy, Inquisitorial, or Ecclesiastical forces.
The Imperium of Man is so vast that it can provide more than sufficient manpower to defend itself, without having to rely on power-armored freaks. Furthermore, since, to my knowledge, Imperial authorities have to petition Space Marine chapters for their aid (which means they can refuse), it would be more responsive if the resources used for Space Marines was instead used on raising Stormtrooper divisions.
Space Marines are cool, but unnecessary for the defense of the Imperium.
edit: Also, the point about the Imperial Navy being suddenly wiped out is utterly ludicrous. Like the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy is so large that it can continue to fight after monstrous losses. Adaptes Astartes fleet assets, though, are considerably more rare. Furthermore, countless Imperial shipyards can still replenish Imperial Navy ship losses; where do Space Marines get their ships from?
No, Guardsmen don't have limitations, this is what people don't understand. Anything a Space Marine can do, there is a regiment or unit[i] that can do it better than they can.
Anything [u]a Space Marine can do a regiment or unit can do better. Well there's your answer
Can a regiment or unit clear out the remainders of a chaos invasion, by themselves, nope. It would take a few more than that.
A squad of marines was backed up by guard that were rotated in shifts, 3 days later the marines were still at the front. Guard were worn out and wanted to go to bed. Marine's keep fighting.
Well if we took it all the way back to 2nd. Where there's really a huge difference between power armour>flak. Bolt >las .
Games were smaller, without massed batteries of anything really, Same reason dread's are stuffed really.
But to answer the op.
When marines were created. There just wasn't enough humans to pull the ol throw bodies at it till it's dead trick.
Which they seem to be getting away from now, and doing the human's are great trope.
So they needed daft punkers. Harder, better, faster, stronger
That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).
Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.
Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.
It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.
That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).
Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.
Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.
It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.
Which regiment can effectively fight Orks in close combat or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors or survive in the vacuum of space at all in their standard wargear?
That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).
Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.
Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.
It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.
Which regiment can effectively fight Orks in close combat or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors or survive in the vacuum of space at all in their standard wargear?
At no point did I say 'in standard wargear'. Also, look at Catachans, then look at Elysians, then look at Death Korps, Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion, Cadian Hazardous Environment Troops and Cadians and then tell me what Standard Wargear is. There are Guard Regiments that can fight Orks in close combat, or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors, or survive the vacuum of space. Also, Marines don't best Orks in combat, just doesn't happen, not a 'standard' marine anyway.
That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).
Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.
Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.
It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.
Which regiment can effectively fight Orks in close combat or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors or survive in the vacuum of space at all in their standard wargear?
At no point did I say 'in standard wargear'. Also, look at Catachans, then look at Elysians, then look at Death Korps, Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion, Cadian Hazardous Environment Troops and Cadians and then tell me what Standard Wargear is. There are Guard Regiments that can fight Orks in close combat, or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors, or survive the vacuum of space. Also, Marines don't best Orks in combat, just doesn't happen, not a 'standard' marine anyway.
None of this post makes any logical sense. Like, I am so much dumber reading this. IG beat orks and equal aspect warriors? Marines cant best orks in combat?
My friend, SM's can definitely slaughter stupid orks in combat. You need to read Rynns World.
That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).
Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.
Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.
It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.
Which regiment can effectively fight Orks in close combat or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors or survive in the vacuum of space at all in their standard wargear?
At no point did I say 'in standard wargear'. Also, look at Catachans, then look at Elysians, then look at Death Korps, Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion, Cadian Hazardous Environment Troops and Cadians and then tell me what Standard Wargear is. There are Guard Regiments that can fight Orks in close combat, or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors, or survive the vacuum of space. Also, Marines don't best Orks in combat, just doesn't happen, not a 'standard' marine anyway.
None of this post makes any logical sense. Like, I am so much dumber reading this. IG beat orks and equal aspect warriors? Marines cant best orks in combat?
My friend, SM's can definitely slaughter stupid orks in combat. You need to read Rynns World.
pm713 wrote: Guardsmen are very limited. You can say there's a regiment for everything all you like but shockingly this one regiment can't cover the Imperium and there aren't enough regiments like them to do it either. A Space Marine Chapter is better because not only are they better they can deal with all the situations equally well. Catachans are only good in a jungle. Space Marines can be good in and out of it.
Catachans are not only good in jungle terrain, they excell in dense terrain. Cadians are ok wherever you put them. Most regiments are good at different things but can do just about anything. For example a valhallan really comes into his own in the cold but can do jst about anything an infantryman can. That and you forget the fact that in a given area the are scores more guardsmen than marines, your lucky if there is one company in the area. Also arent chapters specialized like regiments? There are millions more regiments tgan chapters making the imperial guard much more conventional.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in thiom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.
That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).
Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.
Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.
It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.
Which regiment can effectively fight Orks in close combat or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors or survive in the vacuum of space at all in their standard wargear?
At no point did I say 'in standard wargear'. Also, look at Catachans, then look at Elysians, then look at Death Korps, Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion, Cadian Hazardous Environment Troops and Cadians and then tell me what Standard Wargear is. There are Guard Regiments that can fight Orks in close combat, or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors, or survive the vacuum of space. Also, Marines don't best Orks in combat, just doesn't happen, not a 'standard' marine anyway.
None of this post makes any logical sense. Like, I am so much dumber reading this. IG beat orks and equal aspect warriors? Marines cant best orks in combat?
My friend, SM's can definitely slaughter stupid orks in combat. You need to read Rynns World.
That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).
Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.
Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.
It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.
Which regiment can effectively fight Orks in close combat or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors or survive in the vacuum of space at all in their standard wargear?
At no point did I say 'in standard wargear'. Also, look at Catachans, then look at Elysians, then look at Death Korps, Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion, Cadian Hazardous Environment Troops and Cadians and then tell me what Standard Wargear is. There are Guard Regiments that can fight Orks in close combat, or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors, or survive the vacuum of space. Also, Marines don't best Orks in combat, just doesn't happen, not a 'standard' marine anyway.
None of those are named and it's a fact that they cannot because they are inferior in any way to Aspect Warriors. You'll find they do beat Orks if you read lore.
pm713 wrote: Guardsmen are very limited. You can say there's a regiment for everything all you like but shockingly this one regiment can't cover the Imperium and there aren't enough regiments like them to do it either. A Space Marine Chapter is better because not only are they better they can deal with all the situations equally well. Catachans are only good in a jungle. Space Marines can be good in and out of it.
Catachans are not only good in jungle terrain, they excell in dense terrain. Cadians are ok wherever you put them. Most regiments are good at different things but can do just about anything. For example a valhallan really comes into his own in the cold but can do jst about anything an infantryman can. That and you forget the fact that in a given area the are scores more guardsmen than marines, your lucky if there is one company in the area. Also arent chapters specialized like regiments? There are millions more regiments tgan chapters making the imperial guard much more conventional.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in thiom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.
Mainly because they die so fast you need that many.
The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in thiom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.
They can't even deploy in a week. It takes several months.
The Space Marines are up and ready to go in a day.
The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in thiom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.
They can't even deploy in a week. It takes several months.
The Space Marines are up and ready to go in a day.
abnett seems to disagree, as does mitchell. A regiment with the smallest modicum of experience can deploy in several hours. A good sized fleet can put that many down in a week.
The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in thiom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.
They can't even deploy in a week. It takes several months.
The Space Marines are up and ready to go in a day.
abnett seems to disagree, as does mitchell. A regiment with the smallest modicum of experience can deploy in several hours. A good sized fleet can put that many down in a week.
I think there is a difference between being ready to deploy and deploying - well trained Guards Regiments and support teams can do it swiftly and be ready to fight, but they have to be in the right place at the right time - which they are often not and the Navy vessels need to ready to transport them.
It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.
It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.
Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.
It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.
Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.
Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.
I would like to point out that as a fighting force Space marines are only shadow of their former selves and they are that way for the sake of the Imperium.
It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.
Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.
Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.
I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.
My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.
Politicis and Belief also effect the decisions made by Imperial Commanders and so most (Be they Guard, Sororitas or Astartes) would in fact act to defend the Shrine World - after any Forge World worthy of the name normally has at the very least elements of a Titan Legion and its supporting troops to defend it.
Sector Command would have to receive the call, look at the resources available, ability to get there, other commitments and calls for aid, what importance the target has respectively to the Imperium, the Sector and the varied power groups in the Sector. They then need to get all the varied arms of the Imperium to act together and go to the target - if the right resources are in fact available for transportation and the environment,
The Astartes may or may not respond but they will almost certainly be quicker by a significant degree of magnitude precisely because they are independent.
It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.
Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.
Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.
I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.
My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.
Or they'll get glory by defending the Forge World.
It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.
Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.
Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.
I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.
My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.
There is little implying that what you are saying is true.
Yea, especially considering that Space Marines and the Ecclesiarchy aren't typically on friendly terms.
Honestly I doubt the scenario comes up very often anyways unless a Black Crusade or WAAAGH is going on where EVERYTHING everywhere is being attacked at the same time, I suppose.
Marines are the super elite tough asses in a universe full of super elite tough asses. If you, god forbid, examine the Space Marine game, Imperial Guard are the main bulk of the army, but require the Space Marines for special insertion forces. I dont know how to explain it, its right in my mind, but they are the rapier to the IG broadsword. They are the knife in the heart while the IG are the bludgeons. IG in the end do the most of the fighting, but the Space Marines fight the tougher and more difficult battles. Damnos is important as the IG were being annihilated. Marines are the mailed fist of the Emperor. Plus we have to remember back in the day (28 000 years from now) they were the army, there were millions of Marines. 2 Million - 10 milliion i cant remember. So there was once a proper use.
Phiasco II wrote: Uh, as super soldier shock troops? As an unstoppable extension of the Emperors will? As gods to bestride the battlefields of the galaxy?
Someone read their codex cover to cover! This pleases your spiritual leige.
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?
The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?
The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)
Except Spartans would be butchered by Space Marines.
And I do believe Halo occured in the 2500's so that is really about 500 years in the future while Space Marines are created in the 30th millennium.
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?
The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)
Except Spartans would be butchered by Space Marines.
And I do believe Halo occured in the 2500's so that is really about 500 years in the future while Space Marines are created in the 30th millennium.
Of course. I never said otherwise. But there are plenty of obvious similarities (Huge soldiers in special heavy armour that have been given surgical enhancements and now acts as super-elite troops), so they can appeal to similar audiences, except that Marines require far more phlebotinum to function. Which one is preferable is down to taste.
The fact that Spartans actually are a remotely possible future instead of being space-magic is the reason I pointed them out at all. For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.
Ashiraya wrote: For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.
Actually I prefer the Starship Troopers style of power armor: awesome elites that are still mortal. I don't really know much about Halo, besides the fact that it was a mediocre console FPS.
As for why I like 40k, I'll copy/paste my reply to the same post in the other thread:
But Halo doesn't have the rest of the 40k setting. And low-end space marines fit the setting perfectly once you remember that the Imperium is not a rational empire that always uses the most efficient tools they can get. They're an insane and sadistic theocracy that often seems to exist for the sole purpose of extending the misery and suffering of humanity for as long as possible before a final, merciful death. They build giant cathedral-ships to worship their corpse god, they sacrifice millions of lives (along with vast amounts of weapons) to protect irrelevant religious shrines, they ban science and engineering as unforgivable heresy in favor of tank designs that a 1920s army would consider obsolete garbage, etc. Space marines are just one more part of that trend. They're an obscene waste of resources while simultaneously being too rare to matter 99.999% of the time, but god says to build space marines! Welcome to life in a dystopia.
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?
The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)
Except Spartans would be butchered by Space Marines.
And I do believe Halo occured in the 2500's so that is really about 500 years in the future while Space Marines are created in the 30th millennium.
Of course. I never said otherwise. But there are plenty of obvious similarities (Huge soldiers in special heavy armour that have been given surgical enhancements and now acts as super-elite troops), so they can appeal to similar audiences, except that Marines require far more phlebotinum to function. Which one is preferable is down to taste.
The fact that Spartans actually are a remotely possible future instead of being space-magic is the reason I pointed them out at all. For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.
Well, I don't approve of the "space magical" primarchs, but SM's are biologically enhanced soldiers. The entire process is purely biological and 39,000 years in the future, it might be possible. Spartans are more simply enhanced soldiers and not quite as powerful as Space Marines but they have the advantage of being slightly easier to create. Though if I remember correctly, there were still a lot of problems with the Spartan programs and it led to the severe decrease in spartan operations.
It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.
Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.
Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.
I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.
My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.
Would depend on the Chapter but, also, a Shrine World is never "unimportant". Those are places that, for whatever reasons, are considered sacred and holy to the Ecclesiarchy... you know, the system of faith and belief in the divinity of the God-Emperor that holds Humanity together.
But, no, a Space Marine Chapter would not be tasked to defend a Shrine World that was not in danger over a Forge World that was. That's simply not how that works (and, also, the Sisters of Battle defend Shrine Worlds. It's what they do.)
Ashiraya wrote: For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.
Actually I prefer the Starship Troopers style of power armor: awesome elites that are still mortal. I don't really know much about Halo, besides the fact that it was a mediocre console FPS.
As for why I like 40k, I'll copy/paste my reply to the same post in the other thread:
But Halo doesn't have the rest of the 40k setting. And low-end space marines fit the setting perfectly once you remember that the Imperium is not a rational empire that always uses the most efficient tools they can get. They're an insane and sadistic theocracy that often seems to exist for the sole purpose of extending the misery and suffering of humanity for as long as possible before a final, merciful death. They build giant cathedral-ships to worship their corpse god, they sacrifice millions of lives (along with vast amounts of weapons) to protect irrelevant religious shrines, they ban science and engineering as unforgivable heresy in favor of tank designs that a 1920s army would consider obsolete garbage, etc. Space marines are just one more part of that trend. They're an obscene waste of resources while simultaneously being too rare to matter 99.999% of the time, but god says to build space marines! Welcome to life in a dystopia.
Ashiraya wrote: For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.
Actually I prefer the Starship Troopers style of power armor: awesome elites that are still mortal. I don't really know much about Halo, besides the fact that it was a mediocre console FPS.
As for why I like 40k, I'll copy/paste my reply to the same post in the other thread:
But Halo doesn't have the rest of the 40k setting. And low-end space marines fit the setting perfectly once you remember that the Imperium is not a rational empire that always uses the most efficient tools they can get. They're an insane and sadistic theocracy that often seems to exist for the sole purpose of extending the misery and suffering of humanity for as long as possible before a final, merciful death. They build giant cathedral-ships to worship their corpse god, they sacrifice millions of lives (along with vast amounts of weapons) to protect irrelevant religious shrines, they ban science and engineering as unforgivable heresy in favor of tank designs that a 1920s army would consider obsolete garbage, etc. Space marines are just one more part of that trend. They're an obscene waste of resources while simultaneously being too rare to matter 99.999% of the time, but god says to build space marines! Welcome to life in a dystopia.
I agree.
I hate spartans, I think they have shields that stop bullets? So stupid. Can survive falls by locking up or something? Also stupid etc.
I too prefer Starship Troopers style of things. But I would prefer to just have normal grunts 99% of the time, with elite being soldiers with guys with experience or even (and it may sound odd) but those mech things in the Avatar movie. Space Marines would be cooler like that, because its sensible and has a purpose somewhat.
Psienesis wrote: Those are places that, for whatever reasons, are considered sacred and holy to the Ecclesiarchy... you know, the system of faith and belief in the divinity of the God-Emperor that holds Humanity together.
You know, the system of delusion and idiocy that holds humanity back and dooms it to a slow decline full of unimaginable suffering, and eventual extinction.
Ashiraya wrote: But there are plenty of obvious similarities (Huge soldiers in special heavy armour that have been given surgical enhancements and now acts as super-elite troops)
Seems like the generic description of space marine, irregardless of setting. Well, the surgical enhancement is not always here, but the rest works from Doom to Starcraft to Starship troopers (at least the book).
Some do. At last count, some 15 "canon" Chapters are listed as having a belief in the God-Emperor as a divine being.
The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)
The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )
The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)
The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40KBRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)
The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)
The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)
The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshipping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)
And then there are the Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch RPG. Not a GW Chapter, obviously, but one more for the pile.
One can make arguments for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines, though these Chapters are not outright said to worship the God-Emperor (but elements to what lore there is about them suggests such an arrangement)
News flash! All the races and factions exist so as to sell models!
If you wanna make the argument that GW favours Marines then yeah... they might. But a glance at the Eldar codex tells me they also loves them some sexy Eldar butts too. Pretty sure GW loves all their products. Just maybe not Orks or Tyranids...
darkcloak wrote: News flash! All the races and factions exist so as to sell models!
If you wanna make the argument that GW favours Marines then yeah... they might. But a glance at the Eldar codex tells me they also loves them some sexy Eldar butts too. Pretty sure GW loves all their products. Just maybe not Orks or Tyranids...
I'd love to date a female Eldar! Call me heretic all you want.
Ashiraya wrote: For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.
Actually I prefer the Starship Troopers style of power armor: awesome elites that are still mortal. I don't really know much about Halo, besides the fact that it was a mediocre console FPS.
As for why I like 40k, I'll copy/paste my reply to the same post in the other thread:
But Halo doesn't have the rest of the 40k setting. And low-end space marines fit the setting perfectly once you remember that the Imperium is not a rational empire that always uses the most efficient tools they can get. They're an insane and sadistic theocracy that often seems to exist for the sole purpose of extending the misery and suffering of humanity for as long as possible before a final, merciful death. They build giant cathedral-ships to worship their corpse god, they sacrifice millions of lives (along with vast amounts of weapons) to protect irrelevant religious shrines, they ban science and engineering as unforgivable heresy in favor of tank designs that a 1920s army would consider obsolete garbage, etc. Space marines are just one more part of that trend. They're an obscene waste of resources while simultaneously being too rare to matter 99.999% of the time, but god says to build space marines! Welcome to life in a dystopia.
Interesting theory, but it has nothing but extrapolation backing it up. I remain in disagreement.
Swastakowey wrote:
I agree.
I hate spartans, I think they have shields that stop bullets? So stupid. Can survive falls by locking up or something? Also stupid etc.
I too prefer Starship Troopers style of things. But I would prefer to just have normal grunts 99% of the time, with elite being soldiers with guys with experience or even (and it may sound odd) but those mech things in the Avatar movie. Space Marines would be cooler like that, because its sensible and has a purpose somewhat.
Usually, if its a video game, it sucks.
Shields that stop bullets? Indeed. Reverse-engineered Covenant technology. Sort of like tiny, weak, infantry-worn Void Shields.
Something that should totally exist in 40Kbtw, at least for officers and Space Marines.
The locking up you refer to is 'armour lock', that is, temporarily diverting extra power to the shields as a desperate way to survive a bad situation. To my knowledge, it has no effect on falls.
I prefer Marines because that is one thing this setting has that is reasonably unique; it blends space-magic demigods of war with WW1 trench warfare, something literally no other setting does, and something I am a vast fan of.
The reason this setting motivates having both in the same wars is that the former is much rarer, something that makes sense to me.
Ashiraya wrote: Interesting theory, but it has nothing but extrapolation backing it up. I remain in disagreement.
It's not extrapolation, it's the basic premise of the setting: the Imperium is completely screwed up in every way possible. A big part of the "grimdark" concept is that the universe could be better, except the Imperium is not capable of change. Humanity is doomed to a slow and miserable decline because it is ruled by an insane theocracy, and the best you can do is fight to live another day.
I prefer Marines because that is one thing this setting has that is reasonably unique; it blends space-magic demigods of war with WW1 trench warfare, something literally no other setting does, and something I am a vast fan of.
But Starship Troopers power armor soldiers are tech-magic demigods. They drop in from orbit, bounce around the battlefield with JSJ tactics the Tau would envy, and use tactical nukes as a default weapon. The fact that they're still mortal and can be killed by appropriate weapons doesn't change the fact that they're awesome. Same with space marines: they're complete badasses, but if you shoot them they still die. Taking away the worst space marine fanboyism (tanking titan shots, etc) doesn't make them less interesting as power-armored demigods, it just prevents them from becoming boring comic book heroes and reducing the setting to "my space magic +10 is better than your space magic".
Ashiraya wrote: Interesting theory, but it has nothing but extrapolation backing it up. I remain in disagreement.
It's not extrapolation, it's the basic premise of the setting: the Imperium is completely screwed up in every way possible. A big part of the "grimdark" concept is that the universe could be better, except the Imperium is not capable of change. Humanity is doomed to a slow and miserable decline because it is ruled by an insane theocracy, and the best you can do is fight to live another day.
I prefer Marines because that is one thing this setting has that is reasonably unique; it blends space-magic demigods of war with WW1 trench warfare, something literally no other setting does, and something I am a vast fan of.
But Starship Troopers power armor soldiers are tech-magic demigods. They drop in from orbit, bounce around the battlefield with JSJ tactics the Tau would envy, and use tactical nukes as a default weapon. The fact that they're still mortal and can be killed by appropriate weapons doesn't change the fact that they're awesome. Same with space marines: they're complete badasses, but if you shoot them they still die. Taking away the worst space marine fanboyism (tanking titan shots, etc) doesn't make them less interesting as power-armored demigods, it just prevents them from becoming boring comic book heroes and reducing the setting to "my space magic +10 is better than your space magic".
Depends on what you mean. The only character I know that tanked titan shots was Lorgar. But shooting SM's dead still requires the most powerful of weapons.
Edit: starship troopers are in know way close to SM's as far as elite forces.
Well when I first played Halo 3 my friend said that his armour locks up so he doesnt survive falls. hence why he falls out of thew sky in the opening scene. I played the first mission and my brain boiled. The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense. Didnt help the no fall damage and crazy jumping. Its all bull really.
Shields should not be able to stop bullets. I have never had a satisfactory reason why they should.
If a Space Marine was in a field like Passchendaele he would sink into the muddy pools and drown (unless they have gills too ). All that weight concentrated on two feet cannot end well. Let alone them managing to leave a trench without destroying the barriers.
They do not in any way fit in a trench setting without space magic.
But yes they are unique. Just the numbers, physics and logic are missing a bit too much. (im just fussy I know. I have ruined movies for my fiancee as a result haha)
But they shouldnt be able to exist unless the world is in no way like ours. Which would explain why their Space marine Craft can actually fly.
With a little effort and thought they could be very very cool though.
Swastakowey wrote: Well when I first played Halo 3 my friend said that his armour locks up so he doesnt survive falls. hence why he falls out of thew sky in the opening scene. I played the first mission and my brain boiled. The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense. Didnt help the no fall damage and crazy jumping. Its all bull really.
Shields should not be able to stop bullets. I have never had a satisfactory reason why they should.
If a Space Marine was in a field like Passchendaele he would sink into the muddy pools and drown (unless they have gills too ). All that weight concentrated on two feet cannot end well. Let alone them managing to leave a trench without destroying the barriers.
They do not in any way fit in a trench setting without space magic.
But yes they are unique. Just the numbers, physics and logic are missing a bit too much. (im just fussy I know. I have ruined movies for my fiancee as a result haha)
But they shouldnt be able to exist unless the world is in no way like ours. Which would explain why their Space marine Craft can actually fly.
Space Marines can survive for over 30 minutes under water. SM's have a third long precisely for that reason.
As for how heavy marines are. C'mon now dude, elephants are so much bigger than marines and they never sink or drown in mudd. Humans are actually pretty small compared to most animals like bears, walruses, ect.
An energy forcefield can definitely stop a bullet. No contest.
Swastakowey wrote: Well when I first played Halo 3 my friend said that his armour locks up so he doesnt survive falls. hence why he falls out of thew sky in the opening scene. I played the first mission and my brain boiled. The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense. Didnt help the no fall damage and crazy jumping. Its all bull really.
Shields should not be able to stop bullets. I have never had a satisfactory reason why they should.
If a Space Marine was in a field like Passchendaele he would sink into the muddy pools and drown (unless they have gills too ). All that weight concentrated on two feet cannot end well. Let alone them managing to leave a trench without destroying the barriers.
They do not in any way fit in a trench setting without space magic.
But yes they are unique. Just the numbers, physics and logic are missing a bit too much. (im just fussy I know. I have ruined movies for my fiancee as a result haha)
But they shouldnt be able to exist unless the world is in no way like ours. Which would explain why their Space marine Craft can actually fly.
Space Marines can survive for over 30 minutes under water. SM's have a third long precisely for that reason.
As for how heavy marines are. C'mon now dude, elephants are so much bigger than marines and they never sink or drown in mudd. Humans are actually pretty small compared to most animals like bears, walruses, ect.
An energy forcefield can definitely stop a bullet. No contest.
Elephants have 4 legs, they do die in mud and so forth. If an elephant walked through a swamp it would die. Their feet are also designed to mush out etc. Space Marines have rigid armored boots, ever worn boots in small amounts of mud? Imagine that but with pools of mud. Normal soldiers died in that mud, imagine a brutish behemoth of a man in huge amounts of armour trying to get through it.
Cool, they get to breath muddy water (if that doesnt kill them) for 30 minutes before perishing.
How please? Its a solid object that travels at crazy speeds arcing towards you, how does energy stop/deflect it? Lasers maybe, but not solid objects. If anything it may make the bullet hotter...
Swastakowey wrote: Well when I first played Halo 3 my friend said that his armour locks up so he doesnt survive falls. hence why he falls out of thew sky in the opening scene. I played the first mission and my brain boiled. The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense. Didnt help the no fall damage and crazy jumping. Its all bull really.
Shields should not be able to stop bullets. I have never had a satisfactory reason why they should.
If a Space Marine was in a field like Passchendaele he would sink into the muddy pools and drown (unless they have gills too ). All that weight concentrated on two feet cannot end well. Let alone them managing to leave a trench without destroying the barriers.
They do not in any way fit in a trench setting without space magic.
But yes they are unique. Just the numbers, physics and logic are missing a bit too much. (im just fussy I know. I have ruined movies for my fiancee as a result haha)
But they shouldnt be able to exist unless the world is in no way like ours. Which would explain why their Space marine Craft can actually fly.
Space Marines can survive for over 30 minutes under water. SM's have a third long precisely for that reason.
As for how heavy marines are. C'mon now dude, elephants are so much bigger than marines and they never sink or drown in mudd. Humans are actually pretty small compared to most animals like bears, walruses, ect.
An energy forcefield can definitely stop a bullet. No contest.
Elephants have 4 legs, they do die in mud and so forth. If an elephant walked through a swamp it would die. Their feet are also designed to mush out etc. Space Marines have rigid armored boots, ever worn boots in small amounts of mud? Imagine that but with pools of mud. Normal soldiers died in that mud, imagine a brutish behemoth of a man in huge amounts of armour trying to get through it.
Cool, they get to breath muddy water (if that doesnt kill them) for 30 minutes before perishing.
How please? Its a solid object that travels at crazy speeds arcing towards you, how does energy stop/deflect it? Lasers maybe, but not solid objects. If anything it may make the bullet hotter...
Lord Tarkin wrote: C'mon now dude, elephants are so much bigger than marines and they never sink or drown in mudd. Humans are actually pretty small compared to most animals like bears, walruses, ect.
The issue isn't total weight, it's ground pressure (weight divided by surface area in contact with the ground). There are heavier animals, but they also have larger feet to spread the load. And you'll notice that animals that need to deal with soft surfaces frequently also tend to have proportionately wider feet/webs between their toes/etc to spread the load even more. A space marine, on the other hand, weighs much more than a normal human but doesn't have all that much more surface area to spread that weight. Soft ground would be extremely dangerous to them, even if they don't sink all the way and drown they would easily trip and fall, be unable to move fast enough to avoid incoming fire, etc.
Teleporting the object makes more sense than "energy barrier". Space Magic is not a good reason. Its a lazy reason. Thats all.
[/spoiler] Never heard of anybody drowning in mud.
Do some reading then... Horrible way to die really. I have seen videos of soldiers trapped in mud and its not easy to get them out. Having heavy gear needed for war and the only real cover provided by watery craters on some fronts = lots of drowning.
Swastakowey wrote: Well when I first played Halo 3 my friend said that his armour locks up so he doesnt survive falls. hence why he falls out of thew sky in the opening scene. I played the first mission and my brain boiled. The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense. Didnt help the no fall damage and crazy jumping. Its all bull really.
Shields should not be able to stop bullets. I have never had a satisfactory reason why they should.
If a Space Marine was in a field like Passchendaele he would sink into the muddy pools and drown (unless they have gills too ). All that weight concentrated on two feet cannot end well. Let alone them managing to leave a trench without destroying the barriers.
They do not in any way fit in a trench setting without space magic.
But yes they are unique. Just the numbers, physics and logic are missing a bit too much. (im just fussy I know. I have ruined movies for my fiancee as a result haha)
But they shouldnt be able to exist unless the world is in no way like ours. Which would explain why their Space marine Craft can actually fly.
Space Marines can survive for over 30 minutes under water. SM's have a third long precisely for that reason.
As for how heavy marines are. C'mon now dude, elephants are so much bigger than marines and they never sink or drown in mudd. Humans are actually pretty small compared to most animals like bears, walruses, ect.
An energy forcefield can definitely stop a bullet. No contest.
Elephants have 4 legs, they do die in mud and so forth. If an elephant walked through a swamp it would die. Their feet are also designed to mush out etc. Space Marines have rigid armored boots, ever worn boots in small amounts of mud? Imagine that but with pools of mud. Normal soldiers died in that mud, imagine a brutish behemoth of a man in huge amounts of armour trying to get through it.
Cool, they get to breath muddy water (if that doesnt kill them) for 30 minutes before perishing.
How please? Its a solid object that travels at crazy speeds arcing towards you, how does energy stop/deflect it? Lasers maybe, but not solid objects. If anything it may make the bullet hotter...
Ashiraya wrote: Interesting theory, but it has nothing but extrapolation backing it up. I remain in disagreement.
It's not extrapolation, it's the basic premise of the setting: the Imperium is completely screwed up in every way possible. A big part of the "grimdark" concept is that the universe could be better, except the Imperium is not capable of change. Humanity is doomed to a slow and miserable decline because it is ruled by an insane theocracy, and the best you can do is fight to live another day.
I prefer Marines because that is one thing this setting has that is reasonably unique; it blends space-magic demigods of war with WW1 trench warfare, something literally no other setting does, and something I am a vast fan of.
But Starship Troopers power armor soldiers are tech-magic demigods. They drop in from orbit, bounce around the battlefield with JSJ tactics the Tau would envy, and use tactical nukes as a default weapon. The fact that they're still mortal and can be killed by appropriate weapons doesn't change the fact that they're awesome. Same with space marines: they're complete badasses, but if you shoot them they still die. Taking away the worst space marine fanboyism (tanking titan shots, etc) doesn't make them less interesting as power-armored demigods, it just prevents them from becoming boring comic book heroes and reducing the setting to "my space magic +10 is better than your space magic".
Starship Troopers, from what I have seen in the films, are basically Guardsmen.
I have never argued that Marines should tank Titan shots (That is Primarch territory) but certainly tank shots.
Swastakowey wrote: Well when I first played Halo 3 my friend said that his armour locks up so he doesnt survive falls. hence why he falls out of thew sky in the opening scene. I played the first mission and my brain boiled. The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense. Didnt help the no fall damage and crazy jumping. Its all bull really.
Shields should not be able to stop bullets. I have never had a satisfactory reason why they should.
If a Space Marine was in a field like Passchendaele he would sink into the muddy pools and drown (unless they have gills too ). All that weight concentrated on two feet cannot end well. Let alone them managing to leave a trench without destroying the barriers.
They do not in any way fit in a trench setting without space magic.
But yes they are unique. Just the numbers, physics and logic are missing a bit too much. (im just fussy I know. I have ruined movies for my fiancee as a result haha)
But they shouldnt be able to exist unless the world is in no way like ours. Which would explain why their Space marine Craft can actually fly.
With a little effort and thought they could be very very cool though.
Swastakowey wrote: The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense.
I am sorry, I know you can hold your own opinion and I respect that, but I lol'd somewhat at this. The multiplayer toughness is arguably toned down for gameplay reasons. The reason things do or do not make sense to you is because you think everything from Spartans to Guardsmen to Marines are WW2/WW1 soldiers with different skins, and when you see something that contradict this you consider this to be 'stupid' and headcanon it away.
I mean, headcanon is the point of 40K and it's okay and all, but the IGhammering here is just incredible.
Bullets penetrate a lot of things. They also bounce around a lot. Contrary to video game physics a bullet can bounce around multiple people and fragment doing damage to those around the target. Depends on many things.
But you know what a bullet will be able to penetrate? Mystic battery energy.
There is no real logic to deflector shields mate, just sit back and think about it. Its a cool idea for lasers (maybe, im not 1090% on how lasers work though) but bullets, shells and other solid projectiles cant be stopped buy energy.
It is plausible according to NASA (read a while ago) that shielding may one day be able to protect from radiation bursts (which relates to lasers?) but thats about all the inverse stuff you have to back up your shield thing really.
Swastakowey wrote: Bullets penetrate a lot of things. They also bounce around a lot. Contrary to video game physics a bullet can bounce around multiple people and fragment doing damage to those around the target. Depends on many things.
But you know what a bullet will be able to penetrate? Mystic battery energy.
There is no real logic to deflector shields mate, just sit back and think about it. Its a cool idea for lasers (maybe, im not 1090% on how lasers work though) but bullets, shells and other solid projectiles cant be stopped buy energy.
It is plausible according to NASA (read a while ago) that shielding may one day be able to protect from radiation bursts (which relates to lasers?) but thats about all the inverse stuff you have to back up your shield thing really.
Lord Tarkin wrote: C'mon now dude, elephants are so much bigger than marines and they never sink or drown in mudd. Humans are actually pretty small compared to most animals like bears, walruses, ect.
The issue isn't total weight, it's ground pressure (weight divided by surface area in contact with the ground). There are heavier animals, but they also have larger feet to spread the load. And you'll notice that animals that need to deal with soft surfaces frequently also tend to have proportionately wider feet/webs between their toes/etc to spread the load even more. A space marine, on the other hand, weighs much more than a normal human but doesn't have all that much more surface area to spread that weight. Soft ground would be extremely dangerous to them, even if they don't sink all the way and drown they would easily trip and fall, be unable to move fast enough to avoid incoming fire, etc.
Everybody has their own view of exactly how big Marines are. I believe a normal marine would be 7'5-8'4 feet tall and weigh 500lbs-700lbs (without armor). Armor will probably be another 1,000lbs and put 2 more inches on their height but whay you have to remember is that marines have a much wider body than a normal human. They also have much bigger feet. (Those dudes wear size 18 or something)
Here is a picture I always abide by when it comes to their size.
Bullets penetrate a lot of things. They also bounce around a lot. Contrary to video game physics a bullet can bounce around multiple people and fragment doing damage to those around the target. Depends on many things.
Not really. Most bullets tend to shatter when striking a solid object like a brick wall. They might abrade someone standing very close to the point of impact, but this is not a serious injury. Now, if the surface struck is very thin, like drywall, then the bullet will (in most cases) penetrate right through it and then hit anyone standing in the line of fire on the other side, and can then cause serious injury or kill, but that's a pretty specific set of circumstances. Also depends on the round itself. A pistol round, and most rifle rounds, are too small to have enough mass to shatter into lethal shards when they hit something solid. The 20mm round fired by an autocannon is a different story entirely.
Bullet-deflection and injuries caused by said deflections, especially to a victim who was not the intended target, are exceptionally rare. Also depends on the caliber and type of round being fired, and what they are fired by.
Also, bullets don't penetrate much that is designed to be resistant to bullets. An aluminum or fibre-glass car door is not such an object and, so, yes, bullets tend to punch right through them (they are used as cover in the hope that the shot will strike obliquely, thus deflecting or losing velocity passing through the door, to reduce lethality). Against a few millimeters of steel, brick, stone, packed earth (18" will stop all known small arms rounds forever), and other armoring materials, bullets don't do so hot. In fact, a bullet-proof jacket may stop the bullet itself from entering your body completely... but it might not stop the transfer of kinetic energy to your body, which can cause serious injury or death.
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
Ashiraya wrote: Starship Troopers, from what I have seen in the films, are basically Guardsmen.
From what I remember of the book, they have huge powerful exo-armor that they use to make very big “jump”, jump-pack style. Not Tau-huge, more like Edge of Tomorrow stuff. I do not think it is represented in the movies, though.
Ashiraya wrote: Talking more about something akin to Halo or Mass Effect shields.
Never really played Halo, but referring to your post, I guess it is a Rosarius-equivalent. Rosarius. We have tons of them. Marines have Iron Halo or stuff like that. And they steal our rosarius too .
Bullets penetrate a lot of things. They also bounce around a lot. Contrary to video game physics a bullet can bounce around multiple people and fragment doing damage to those around the target. Depends on many things.
Not really. Most bullets tend to shatter when striking a solid object like a brick wall. They might abrade someone standing very close to the point of impact, but this is not a serious injury. Now, if the surface struck is very thin, like drywall, then the bullet will (in most cases) penetrate right through it and then hit anyone standing in the line of fire on the other side, and can then cause serious injury or kill, but that's a pretty specific set of circumstances. Also depends on the round itself. A pistol round, and most rifle rounds, are too small to have enough mass to shatter into lethal shards when they hit something solid. The 20mm round fired by an autocannon is a different story entirely.
Bullet-deflection and injuries caused by said deflections, especially to a victim who was not the intended target, are exceptionally rare. Also depends on the caliber and type of round being fired, and what they are fired by.
Also, bullets don't penetrate much that is designed to be resistant to bullets. An aluminum or fibre-glass car door is not such an object and, so, yes, bullets tend to punch right through them (they are used as cover in the hope that the shot will strike obliquely, thus deflecting or losing velocity passing through the door, to reduce lethality). Against a few millimeters of steel, brick, stone, packed earth (18" will stop all known small arms rounds forever), and other armoring materials, bullets don't do so hot. In fact, a bullet-proof jacket may stop the bullet itself from entering your body completely... but it might not stop the transfer of kinetic energy to your body, which can cause serious injury or death.
Really, have you read the report of the shooting in tasmania. Its a good example of how deadly bullets are.
I heard the housing in middle eastern countries and walls over there are great at stopping bullets because of the materials. But it depends on many things.
Some bullets shatter on impact, but yes I fired a 22 at a car door to show someone how bullets work and it went right through. Hiding behind it would be worse as the bullet would change direction and enter awkwardly. It would also bring fragments causing more damage.
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Never really played Halo, but referring to your post, I guess it is a Rosarius-equivalent. Rosarius. We have tons of them. Marines have Iron Halo or stuff like that. And they steal our rosarius too .
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Sorry, I refer to 3rd person as FPS as well. I dont even know what to call a 3rd person shooter.
3rd person is better for taking cover though. I prefer nearly no health in games. Taking more than 1 hit from most weapons being rare is perfect for me. No room for error. Kill or be killed. Sensibility is also encouraged. I also dont like AI, they lack the necessary technology to make AI learning and changing enough. Health should not be regained during a short skirmish or battle. One life per match is also preferred.
Thanks for the offer though. I have found a couple of dakka members who play some of those games so im not left out haha.
I heard the housing in middle eastern countries and walls over there are great at stopping bullets because of the materials. But it depends on many things.
Some bullets shatter on impact, but yes I fired a 22 at a car door to show someone how bullets work and it went right through. Hiding behind it would be worse as the bullet would change direction and enter awkwardly. It would also bring fragments causing more damage.
Bullets are crazy.
You are right though, bullets are incredibly lethal.
Or rather, we normal humans are just incredibly fragile. We are positively cluttered with weak spots and die from like anything.
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Sorry, I refer to 3rd person as FPS as well. I dont even know what to call a 3rd person shooter.
3rd person is better for taking cover though. I prefer nearly no health in games. Taking more than 1 hit from most weapons being rare is perfect for me. No room for error. Kill or be killed. Sensibility is also encouraged. I also dont like AI, they lack the necessary technology to make AI learning and changing enough. Health should not be regained during a short skirmish or battle. One life per match is also preferred.
Thanks for the offer though. I have found a couple of dakka members who play some of those games so im not left out haha.
Aww! But walking through gunfire unharmed is so cool! At least if you have PA or something.
I guess you would like call of duty?
But look at this, admit it looks really fun!
(Admittedly this was the easiest part- when the amount of Nobz or Primaris Psykers starts stacking up, it can get tougher. That I glitched a few times was purely due to my laggy computer!)
I heard the housing in middle eastern countries and walls over there are great at stopping bullets because of the materials. But it depends on many things.
Some bullets shatter on impact, but yes I fired a 22 at a car door to show someone how bullets work and it went right through. Hiding behind it would be worse as the bullet would change direction and enter awkwardly. It would also bring fragments causing more damage.
Bullets are crazy.
You are right though, bullets are incredibly lethal.
Or rather, we normal humans are just incredibly fragile. We are positively cluttered with weak spots and die from like anything.
Yea, dying from one bullets isnt usually fast either. If I ever get shot im gonna be guttered. Either die slowly, die outright, or need a lot of rehabilitation to get myself working again.
Imagine the stench of getting shot in the gut. Or feeling your bone fragments when you touch the wound on your shoulder. Or worse, having the bullet bounce around inside so you cant breath properly. I mean, people say gas is horrible, but bullets sound worse.
This is the kind of gridmark stuff 40k needs. Down to earth suckyness.
I used to play COD, however I did turn down the health to minimum, turned off kill streaks and got rid of the HUD. But not enough people played that kind of mode so I got sicking of waiting for ages to get a game.
I will check out the video tonight after work. Dont get your hopes up though
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Never really played Halo, but referring to your post, I guess it is a Rosarius-equivalent. Rosarius. We have tons of them. Marines have Iron Halo or stuff like that. And they steal our rosarius too .
The former is an Iron Halo, the latter is a Halo shield.
While possibly similar in effectiveness, I think the differences are distinctive.
The Spacemarine campaign was good up until Chaos showed up. It would have been believable with Titus and his veterans slaughtering orks, especially simce they never really arrived with hordes larger than 300. But when the daemons and chais marines showed up thats when it lossed it fluffiness. Still one of the best and funnest games I ever played.
If you havent seen it, you should definitely watch totalbiscuit on youtube doing some Spacemarine gameplay. He was pretty hilarious.
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Never really played Halo, but referring to your post, I guess it is a Rosarius-equivalent. Rosarius. We have tons of them. Marines have Iron Halo or stuff like that. And they steal our rosarius too .
The former is an Iron Halo, the latter is a Halo shield.
While possibly similar in effectiveness, I think the differences are distinctive.
The Spacemarine campaign was good up until Chaos showed up. It would have been believable with Titus and his veterans slaughtering orks, especially simce they never really arrived with hordes larger than 300. But when the daemons and chais marines showed up thats when it lossed it fluffiness. Still one of the best and funnest games I ever played.
If you havent seen it, you should definitely watch totalbiscuit on youtube doing some Spacemarine gameplay. He was pretty hilarious.
The problem with the CSM in that game was that they were slow and dumb. Insufficient AI.
If they only had fought as actively as the player does, they would have been perfect!
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Never really played Halo, but referring to your post, I guess it is a Rosarius-equivalent. Rosarius. We have tons of them. Marines have Iron Halo or stuff like that. And they steal our rosarius too .
The former is an Iron Halo, the latter is a Halo shield.
While possibly similar in effectiveness, I think the differences are distinctive.
The Spacemarine campaign was good up until Chaos showed up. It would have been believable with Titus and his veterans slaughtering orks, especially simce they never really arrived with hordes larger than 300. But when the daemons and chais marines showed up thats when it lossed it fluffiness. Still one of the best and funnest games I ever played.
If you havent seen it, you should definitely watch totalbiscuit on youtube doing some Spacemarine gameplay. He was pretty hilarious.
The problem with the CSM in that game was that they were slow and dumb. Insufficient AI.
If they only had fought as actively as the player does, they would have been perfect!
What would have been really fun was playing titus charging into a ginormous horde of orks or chaos marines with his entire company of marines. The carnage would have been too awesome to bear
This is the kind of gridmark stuff 40k needs. Down to earth suckyness.
There is plenty of this! Siege of Vraks is a good example, Xaphan's men fighting the Korps should be to your taste.
I prefer the epic duel between CSM and SM, two demigods of war striking each other with blows that would tear up tanks, Guardsmen & Cultists swarming around them, but keeping the distance from their huge allies!
And you know the best thing with 40K?
It can fit both of our preferences! In the same battle no less!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't get why people say supermighty Marines would be bad storywise. Superman is far stronger and it is entirely possible to write good stories about him. A barebones example of a story I would like: We put a few humans in the actual main roles, having a Marine accompany them for some parts of the story. We explore how the Marine views the humans and his own ascension, how he wants to protect all the small people who are so much weaker than he is, but no matter how hard he tries, he can't save all of them. Looking at how they feel about the question if they are truly human.
Besides, who can fail to smile when that scene happens? You know which one I am talking about. The scene when the humans have almost completed their mission but are cornered by the huge ugly Ork, their weapons seemingly having no effect on him. He is about to cut them all down with his huge axe, a vicious grin on his face, when a big armoured hand knocks on his shoulder, and when he turns around he is hurled aside like yesterday's garbage. I agree it would be bad if said scene basically summed up the entire movie, but it is just awesome if it is used once or twice, and the Guardsmen helping him out in turn (Say, a heretical squad of Lascannon teams have pinned down the Marine, and the humans help out their big friend by surprising the heretics from another angle.)
I'd actually prefer Marines in a supporting role storywise, with humans as the main protagonists. It just fits them better.
See Sydney's story about SoB going shopping with a Marine. That was just gold.
Never really played Halo, but referring to your post, I guess it is a Rosarius-equivalent. Rosarius. We have tons of them. Marines have Iron Halo or stuff like that. And they steal our rosarius too .
The former is an Iron Halo, the latter is a Halo shield.
While possibly similar in effectiveness, I think the differences are distinctive.
Well, the only difference I see is the shape of the shield, and that is only from one video game, so I would not be surprised if studio illustrator and sculptor do it differently in the future.
Been playing Painkiller these days. It is a quite old-school FPS where you butcher through endless hordes of daemons in various creepy environment using cool weapons like the awesome stakegun that will pin smaller enemies to the wall behind them. It is one of the most metal games out there. It is not 40k, but maybe you would like it, Ashi .
Ashiraya wrote: I really don't get why people say supermighty Marines would be bad storywise. Superman is far stronger and it is entirely possible to write good stories about him.
Not everyone likes Superman, and he is very ill-fitted for very grimdark stuff. He is quite often referred to as “the boy scout” after all. Batman is a bit more grimdark. And then you have Punisher .
Guess which one is my favorite.
Yeah. and he has the “unlimited riches and magic-like technology” superpower. But he was not my favorite . Which, I admit, has tons and tons of plot armor, but apart from that, no power.
This is the kind of gridmark stuff 40k needs. Down to earth suckyness.
There is plenty of this! Siege of Vraks is a good example, Xaphan's men fighting the Korps should be to your taste.
I prefer the epic duel between CSM and SM, two demigods of war striking each other with blows that would tear up tanks, Guardsmen & Cultists swarming around them, but keeping the distance from their huge allies!
And you know the best thing with 40K?
It can fit both of our preferences! In the same battle no less!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't get why people say supermighty Marines would be bad storywise. Superman is far stronger and it is entirely possible to write good stories about him. A barebones example of a story I would like: We put a few humans in the actual main roles, having a Marine accompany them for some parts of the story. We explore how the Marine views the humans and his own ascension, how he wants to protect all the small people who are so much weaker than he is, but no matter how hard he tries, he can't save all of them. Looking at how they feel about the question if they are truly human.
Besides, who can fail to smile when that scene happens? You know which one I am talking about. The scene when the humans have almost completed their mission but are cornered by the huge ugly Ork, their weapons seemingly having no effect on him. He is about to cut them all down with his huge axe, a vicious grin on his face, when a big armoured hand knocks on his shoulder, and when he turns around he is hurled aside like yesterday's garbage. I agree it would be bad if said scene basically summed up the entire movie, but it is just awesome if it is used once or twice, and the Guardsmen helping him out in turn (Say, a heretical squad of Lascannon teams have pinned down the Marine, and the humans help out their big friend by surprising the heretics from another angle.)
I'd actually prefer Marines in a supporting role storywise, with humans as the main protagonists. It just fits them better.
See Sydney's story about SoB going shopping with a Marine. That was just gold.
I know, which frankly is the reason i have my army.
I prefer the stories about the realities of whats going on. Like iwo jima was a great movie in that respect. It really shed light on the hardships (men dying of dysentery, starvation, propaganda, home life etc). I want my 40k to be informative and open peoples eyes to things they wouldnt think about. 40k is very distant from the emotions and problems real people would face. Such as disease, survival, training and so forth. Full metal jacket had an amazing first half. Or even things like the winter soldier documentaries from 1972. Stuff that makes you think (well made me think anyway).
Just some actual depth to it would be great. Instead of a codex about the human struggle, I get some shoddy half written vague stories about ridiculous things that have had little thought put behind them.
To me Space Marines are the opposite of this. They are like superman. I hated Super Man.
Now I watched watchmen a few weeks ago. There is a glowing blue guy who is somewhat invincible (not sure on the back story of those super heroes). He has all these abilities and powers that no one else has. Yet he is struggling internally and has lost touch with the world and does so much damage etc. That movie is a good example of how marines should be done. They should be intelligent but messed up. Loose touch with reality, and actually posses skills that are needed. A necessary evil to posses in order to protect humans etc.
Instead we have generic bland killy kill kill men who do dumb things for no real reason and the only bad they can do is go to chaos. They dont even battle with emotion. Its a brick with arms that kills.
Which makes me question them all the time.
I am ranting. I just think Space Marines are one of the worst offenders when it comes to preventing the fluff from becoming very good. They are unique, I just dont think they are unique in a good way.
the current fluff is very childish to put it bluntly.
Yeah. 1959. Saw it at some B-movie session from the Cinematheque française. Did not expect much more than your usual B-movie, but damn I was surprised.
This is the kind of gridmark stuff 40k needs. Down to earth suckyness.
There is plenty of this! Siege of Vraks is a good example, Xaphan's men fighting the Korps should be to your taste.
I prefer the epic duel between CSM and SM, two demigods of war striking each other with blows that would tear up tanks, Guardsmen & Cultists swarming around them, but keeping the distance from their huge allies!
And you know the best thing with 40K?
It can fit both of our preferences! In the same battle no less!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't get why people say supermighty Marines would be bad storywise. Superman is far stronger and it is entirely possible to write good stories about him. A barebones example of a story I would like: We put a few humans in the actual main roles, having a Marine accompany them for some parts of the story. We explore how the Marine views the humans and his own ascension, how he wants to protect all the small people who are so much weaker than he is, but no matter how hard he tries, he can't save all of them. Looking at how they feel about the question if they are truly human.
Besides, who can fail to smile when that scene happens? You know which one I am talking about. The scene when the humans have almost completed their mission but are cornered by the huge ugly Ork, their weapons seemingly having no effect on him. He is about to cut them all down with his huge axe, a vicious grin on his face, when a big armoured hand knocks on his shoulder, and when he turns around he is hurled aside like yesterday's garbage. I agree it would be bad if said scene basically summed up the entire movie, but it is just awesome if it is used once or twice, and the Guardsmen helping him out in turn (Say, a heretical squad of Lascannon teams have pinned down the Marine, and the humans help out their big friend by surprising the heretics from another angle.)
I'd actually prefer Marines in a supporting role storywise, with humans as the main protagonists. It just fits them better.
See Sydney's story about SoB going shopping with a Marine. That was just gold.
I know, which frankly is the reason i have my army.
I prefer the stories about the realities of whats going on. Like iwo jima was a great movie in that respect. It really shed light on the hardships (men dying of dysentery, starvation, propaganda, home life etc). I want my 40k to be informative and open peoples eyes to things they wouldnt think about. 40k is very distant from the emotions and problems real people would face. Such as disease, survival, training and so forth. Full metal jacket had an amazing first half. Or even things like the winter soldier documentaries from 1972. Stuff that makes you think (well made me think anyway).
Just some actual depth to it would be great. Instead of a codex about the human struggle, I get some shoddy half written vague stories about ridiculous things that have had little thought put behind them.
To me Space Marines are the opposite of this. They are like superman. I hated Super Man.
Now I watched watchmen a few weeks ago. There is a glowing blue guy who is somewhat invincible (not sure on the back story of those super heroes). He has all these abilities and powers that no one else has. Yet he is struggling internally and has lost touch with the world and does so much damage etc. That movie is a good example of how marines should be done. They should be intelligent but messed up. Loose touch with reality, and actually posses skills that are needed. A necessary evil to posses in order to protect humans etc.
Instead we have generic bland killy kill kill men who do dumb things for no real reason and the only bad they can do is go to chaos. They dont even battle with emotion. Its a brick with arms that kills.
Which makes me question them all the time.
I am ranting. I just think Space Marines are one of the worst offenders when it comes to preventing the fluff from becoming very good. They are unique, I just dont think they are unique in a good way.
the current fluff is very childish to put it bluntly.
Bad writing is not something I blame on Marines.
It's not like IG are consistently well written, either, if you truly sit on your 3rd ed codex as the serene island in the lava sea.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yeah. 1959. Saw it at some B-movie session from the Cinematheque française. Did not expect much more than your usual B-movie, but damn I was surprised.
Alright, i'll give it a shot.
and ashiriya, I dont read IG books either. the 3rd edition book has this amazing passage about some farmer in the Guard who is writing a letter to his family describing how he views things. Some of its blacked out by the guys at the military censor office, but boy it was awesome. I will find it tonight and put it up, but thats the kind of stuff I wanna read. It made me buy an army of peasant farmers with little training because of that. I know have WW1 guard in the making. That one passage has made it impossible to read any other guard codex without being bored. It set the bar too high.
Ashiraya wrote: Starship Troopers, from what I have seen in the films, are basically Guardsmen.
Ah, there's the misunderstanding. The films are very different from the book.
The novel is essentially Heinlein preaching about social duties and noble service to one's country, but he did his research and presents a realistic space military with elite soldiers in advanced power armor dropping from orbit and crushing the hardest targets. A soldier in the book is essentially a Tau crisis suit with tactical nukes.
The movies are a parody of the book, especially Heinlein's social commentary. The soldiers in the movies are pretty much guardsmen, complete with mindless human wave attacks as their default strategy, and the military as a whole is completely incompetent. This concept was completely invented by the people who made the movies, and has nothing to do with the book.
I have never argued that Marines should tank Titan shots (That is Primarch territory) but certainly tank shots.
Which is almost as bad. The shock from a direct hit from a tank cannon would reduce the marine inside the armor to a bloody puddle even if the armor itself isn't breached (much like the solution to an armored knight was often to just hit them with a hammer until they're dead, not to try to cut through the armor). And it also brings up the question of why marines bother with Rhinos, if the tank's armor is so much less durable than the marines inside it. Surely the better approach in that case would be to strap the marines to the outside of the Rhino and use them for extra armor!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: We explore how the Marine views the humans and his own ascension, how he wants to protect all the small people who are so much weaker than he is, but no matter how hard he tries, he can't save all of them. Looking at how they feel about the question if they are truly human.
The problem is that's not how GW wrote space marines. They don't struggle with how to relate to humanity, they're rabid attack dogs that you point in the general direction of something you want smashed and then stand back and watch the slaughter. I mean, GW's idea of "nice guy marines" is mentioning that a chapter doesn't consider their human allies to be completely expendable, unlike those other chapters who will happily use an IG regiment as suicidal bait or shell a refugee camp as long as it kills the enemy.
Ashiraya wrote: Starship Troopers, from what I have seen in the films, are basically Guardsmen.
Ah, there's the misunderstanding. The films are very different from the book.
The novel is essentially Heinlein preaching about social duties and noble service to one's country, but he did his research and presents a realistic space military with elite soldiers in advanced power armor dropping from orbit and crushing the hardest targets. A soldier in the book is essentially a Tau crisis suit with tactical nukes.
The movies are a parody of the book, especially Heinlein's social commentary. The soldiers in the movies are pretty much guardsmen, complete with mindless human wave attacks as their default strategy, and the military as a whole is completely incompetent. This concept was completely invented by the people who made the movies, and has nothing to do with the book.
I have never argued that Marines should tank Titan shots (That is Primarch territory) but certainly tank shots.
Which is almost as bad. The shock from a direct hit from a tank cannon would reduce the marine inside the armor to a bloody puddle even if the armor itself isn't breached (much like the solution to an armored knight was often to just hit them with a hammer until they're dead, not to try to cut through the armor). And it also brings up the question of why marines bother with Rhinos, if the tank's armor is so much less durable than the marines inside it. Surely the better approach in that case would be to strap the marines to the outside of the Rhino and use them for extra armor!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: We explore how the Marine views the humans and his own ascension, how he wants to protect all the small people who are so much weaker than he is, but no matter how hard he tries, he can't save all of them. Looking at how they feel about the question if they are truly human.
The problem is that's not how GW wrote space marines. They don't struggle with how to relate to humanity, they're rabid attack dogs that you point in the general direction of something you want smashed and then stand back and watch the slaughter. I mean, GW's idea of "nice guy marines" is mentioning that a chapter doesn't consider their human allies to be completely expendable, unlike those other chapters who will happily use an IG regiment as suicidal bait or shell a refugee camp as long as it kills the enemy.
Oh, the troopers in the movie fething sucked.
SM armour isn't that indestructible. One krak missile can easily kill a marine. Hot shot lasguns can kill marines outright with 5+ hits to the chest, maybe fewer depending on the accuracy.
With this being said, power armour is quite capable of being breached and it doesn't compare to an IG tank but it is still superior to most other armors. That's why I hate when people talk about marines walking out into a firestorm of missiles and gunfire and turning out completely fine. Marines are taught from the most basic level of training as a scout to properly make use of cover. Sternguard vets are scary as gak because added with their amazing armour, tactical finesse and ranged accuracy, they are experts at utilizing cover.
One reason to have space marines is cause of their unfaltering loyalty and resilience.
If you send guard into a forest full of Lictors they'll stain their pants, run around like headless chickens and get eaten alive. Send marines in and they'll yell FOR THE EMPORER and only the last one might happen.
If you send guard against someone like Tau they're just as likely to join them as fight them. I don't think Marines would do that.
Teleporting the object makes more sense than "energy barrier". Space Magic is not a good reason. Its a lazy reason. Thats all.
[/spoiler]
Never heard of anybody drowning in mud.
Do some reading then... Horrible way to die really. I have seen videos of soldiers trapped in mud and its not easy to get them out. Having heavy gear needed for war and the only real cover provided by watery craters on some fronts = lots of drowning.
'Teleporting the object makes more sense than "energy barrier".'
Shooting a wall deflects bullets, right?
They basically have a weak, see-through wall around them made of hardlight. It absorbs the energy from the bullets to stop it getting to the person underneath, but it can only compensate for so much energy absorption, so eventually it runs out until it has a chance to recharge.
Make sense?
Teleporting the object makes more sense than "energy barrier". Space Magic is not a good reason. Its a lazy reason. Thats all.
Never heard of anybody drowning in mud.
Do some reading then... Horrible way to die really. I have seen videos of soldiers trapped in mud and its not easy to get them out. Having heavy gear needed for war and the only real cover provided by watery craters on some fronts = lots of drowning.
'Teleporting the object makes more sense than "energy barrier".'
Shooting a wall deflects bullets, right?[/spoiler]
They basically have a weak, see-through wall around them made of hardlight. It absorbs the energy from the bullets to stop it getting to the person underneath, but it can only compensate for so much energy absorption, so eventually it runs out until it has a chance to recharge.
Make sense?
From here below is my reply. Coding is messed up haha.
No, it cannot work. Shooting a wall at a weird angle can deflect bullets, or bullet fragments. But usually the bullets go right through depending on the speed, angle and material etc.
It makes no sense. None whatsoever. Give me an example of real life energy being made to physically stop something. I doubt you will find something.
It simply absorbs the energy of the bullet, and the bullet drops to the ground, that's simply it. Lacking kinetic energy a bullet is not dangerous, the shield just drains the kinetic energy before it gets to the user.
Bullets penetrate a lot of things. They also bounce around a lot. Contrary to video game physics a bullet can bounce around multiple people and fragment doing damage to those around the target. Depends on many things.
Not really. Most bullets tend to shatter when striking a solid object like a brick wall. They might abrade someone standing very close to the point of impact, but this is not a serious injury. Now, if the surface struck is very thin, like drywall, then the bullet will (in most cases) penetrate right through it and then hit anyone standing in the line of fire on the other side, and can then cause serious injury or kill, but that's a pretty specific set of circumstances. Also depends on the round itself. A pistol round, and most rifle rounds, are too small to have enough mass to shatter into lethal shards when they hit something solid. The 20mm round fired by an autocannon is a different story entirely.
Bullet-deflection and injuries caused by said deflections, especially to a victim who was not the intended target, are exceptionally rare. Also depends on the caliber and type of round being fired, and what they are fired by.
Also, bullets don't penetrate much that is designed to be resistant to bullets. An aluminum or fibre-glass car door is not such an object and, so, yes, bullets tend to punch right through them (they are used as cover in the hope that the shot will strike obliquely, thus deflecting or losing velocity passing through the door, to reduce lethality). Against a few millimeters of steel, brick, stone, packed earth (18" will stop all known small arms rounds forever), and other armoring materials, bullets don't do so hot. In fact, a bullet-proof jacket may stop the bullet itself from entering your body completely... but it might not stop the transfer of kinetic energy to your body, which can cause serious injury or death.
Really, have you read the report of the shooting in tasmania. Its a good example of how deadly bullets are.
I heard the housing in middle eastern countries and walls over there are great at stopping bullets because of the materials. But it depends on many things.
Some bullets shatter on impact, but yes I fired a 22 at a car door to show someone how bullets work and it went right through. Hiding behind it would be worse as the bullet would change direction and enter awkwardly. It would also bring fragments causing more damage.
Bullets are crazy.
Ehm that article isn't proving what you're suggesting it does...
Almost all of the shooting victims were killed by close-range fire from an assault-class rifle, while some victims were shot multiple times.
Those who were struck by bullet fragments survived their injuries. These fragments were from the bullets exiting the bodies of those who had been the intended targets (who were slain). Most of the people he killed were victims of close-range head shots from an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle. Most of the victims were killed with a single shot, while some were killed due to the round passing through the first target and exiting cleanly, then killing the second victim. This is a known issue with the early models of the AR-15 and M-16 both, which is why later models would include the "tumble" effect, which greatly increased lethality while reducing bullet pass-through.
All this article really proves is that a person armed with military hardware, sufficient ammunition, and both the desire and the will to kill a large number of unarmed civilians is extremely capable of doing so when they are trapped in a building with him. Of course bullets are very lethal, they're *designed* to be! An assault rifle isn't designed to wing you, it's intended to kill you freakin' stone dead quickly and efficiently.
Being hit by fragments is far better than being hit by a whole bullet for these reasons;
Fragments are fragments for a reason, they've hit something and partially lost energy, so they're not going to go as deep and will carry less of a punch.
Bullets make horrible exit holes, if a bullet goes into you and goes through you're a dead man, if a fragment goes into you and goes through you (not that it really would) it'd be a far smaller hole, and you'd have more of a chance of survival.
Bullets make horrible exit holes, if a bullet goes into you and goes through you're a dead man, if a fragment goes into you and goes through you (not that it really would) it'd be a far smaller hole, and you'd have more of a chance of survival.
Not always. In fact, in the early days of the M16, the round would frequently enter-and-exit so quickly that it wouldn't deform (part of the problem with a copper-jacketed slug). This would lead to US servicemen reporting that Viet Cong and NVA soldiers shot by the M16 did not realize they'd been shot, sometimes for several minutes, due to combat stress and adrenaline.
This lead to the "tumble effect" being incorporated into the ballistic profile of later M16s, which greatly increased the lethality of the weapon.
What's with bulletholes here? It's not like Stub guns are common in the AM/IG and Bolters uses bolter rounds (huge-arse explosive shells with varying lethality depending on situations.)
I do like the fact that the incompetence of the Imperial Bureaucracy is constantly being reinforced to the fluff (the age-old misplaced Munitorum files and all), to justify having a small autonomous elite force spread across the Imperium to quickly fill the vacuum between invasion and Imperial reinforcements via bypassing the bureaucracy. I'm not sayin' it ain't got no problems, isolation and independence may lead to higher rate of deviation. But that's just part of the deal.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Bullets make horrible exit holes, if a bullet goes into you and goes through you're a dead man, if a fragment goes into you and goes through you (not that it really would) it'd be a far smaller hole, and you'd have more of a chance of survival.
Modern military small-caliber bullets are meant to wound, not kill outright (though a high spine hit, head hit or huge bleeding is usually exit). Why, you might ask? Because a wounded man needs help (bandages, medicine, a hospital) while a dead man can be used as an extra sandbag. A wounded man afraid to die saps morale far worse with his screaming than a silent dead guy ever can. And it takes two healthy men to get the one wounded man out.
If a guy with a bullet wound (or several) makes it to a proper hospital he's got something like a 90% chance to live. Not life without problems, perhaps, but life anyway. People can be killed by the smallest thing but we're also very resilient if it didn't kill immediately.
... getting OT here, but it's actually a violation of the Geneva Conventions to design a weapon that is simply crippling, or that would, by design, leave crippling injuries (one reason they ban incendiary weapons).
The tactical application of wounding shots is correct, as you described...
Oh well, at least I have my own little 40k world to retreat to.
Yeah its called the south island. And no one likes that joint.
Maybe void shields are a powerful magnet shell as well. I dunno im not mechanicus.
Your sig is pretty much sm fighting feral orks. Yet you cant believe a armoured squad with automatic rocket launchers doing that to you.
You are a Kiwi, flightless, prey to everything and endangered. A bit like those people your sig is shooting
Woah, woah mate.
South island is full of hardy hunters. Seriously, the nicest deer and boar are from there. Its wild land there.
Those men dying in the sig.. they had just slaughtered thousands of men from the most advanced British army at the time not too long earlier. completely wiped them out bar some surviving cavalry members. They made huge amounts of British soldiers retreat after that army was wiped out.
Ever seen a kiwi defend its nest? They kill huge rats and possum regularly. They are not defenseless by a long shot. What they lack in wings, they make up for in sheer beak power mate.
Go back to clubbing baby Kangaroos and turning em into rather bland sausies, we at least have the self respect not to eat the Icon of our country
Haha. brilliant. You forgot the very big hills.
No but i've kicked a couple You cant eat much of what you haven't got. Roo's leg's are feed to the dogs after its been chopped off with a machette. Besides the kiw/guardsman cant stand up to a ca/marine, that's why its endangered.
Well ive seen a proper kiwi in a blue. He was bigger,stronger,faster. Just like a catachan. Not a marine.
He piffed his glass at one, dropped 2, 2 ran away. The blue filth didnt want to go anywhere near him. It was hilarious.
So 150 unarmoured redcoats with superior weapons beat 3000+. Thats just regular humies. Tell me why 1 marine couldnt smash up 23+ humies. You believe those odds.
I guess the best we have for a marine equivalent, which i think would be more storm troopery carapace armour, would be the hollywood shootout. Replace the cops with guard
For one those redcoats lost to many rednecks many times in my state of residence, due to guerilla tactics. The equipment of a force matters less when facing an opponent with better terrain as well as an opponent with superior strategy. Case and point the USA's war for independence.
I think the situation with marines might be comparable to Vietnam, not enough dudes trying to hold a line losing to a bunch of dudes with tunnels. There just werent enough men and they enemy had better command of the terrain.
the ancient wrote: Haha. brilliant. You forgot the very big hills.
No but i've kicked a couple You cant eat much of what you haven't got. Roo's leg's are feed to the dogs after its been chopped off with a machette. Besides the kiw/guardsman cant stand up to a ca/marine, that's why its endangered.
Well ive seen a proper kiwi in a blue. He was bigger,stronger,faster. Just like a catachan. Not a marine.
He piffed his glass at one, dropped 2, 2 ran away. The blue filth didnt want to go anywhere near him. It was hilarious.
So 150 unarmoured redcoats with superior weapons beat 3000+. Thats just regular humies. Tell me why 1 marine couldnt smash up 23+ humies. You believe those odds.
I guess the best we have for a marine equivalent, which i think would be more storm troopery carapace armour, would be the hollywood shootout. Replace the cops with guard
Send an IG trooper back in time and he will think we know nothing about war, honestly. We are childsplay to them. An IG is probably the equivalent of a U.S. army ranger, a scion is the equivalent of a U.S. Navy seal except with much better weapons and armor than any other human. Wielding hellguns that can incapacitate a chaos marine with enough accuracy.
IG are naturally great and it's not just the training, it's the countless battles they fight. Experience is better training than any drill sergeant could ever offer.
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The Home Nuggeteer wrote: For one those redcoats lost to many rednecks many times in my state of residence, due to guerilla tactics. The equipment of a force matters less when facing an opponent with better terrain as well as an opponent with superior strategy. Case and point the USA's war for independence.
I think the situation with marines might be comparable to Vietnam, not enough dudes trying to hold a line losing to a bunch of dudes with tunnels. There just werent enough men and they enemy had better command of the terrain.
Only one thing I have to say about the American revolution.
A man fighting for his freedom is different from a man fighting because he is payed.
Ehm... as much as our history books paint the American Revolution being won by the "guerrilla tactics" of the colonists, the truth is it was an exceedingly unpopular war, and we were getting our asses kicked until Lafeyette showed up to give us a hand, and French pressure on England in Europe forced a recall of British troops from the colonies to defend the homefront.
Psienesis wrote: Ehm... as much as our history books paint the American Revolution being won by the "guerrilla tactics" of the colonists, the truth is it was an exceedingly unpopular war, and we were getting our asses kicked until Lafeyette showed up to give us a hand, and French pressure on England in Europe forced a recall of British troops from the colonies to defend the homefront.
Yeah, but this conversation should probably be transferred to the off-topic forum as this is getting extremely off topic.
Stay on topic everyone. If you reall wanna talk about it, post a thread in off-topic and you'll probably see me there.
Psienesis wrote: Ehm... as much as our history books paint the American Revolution being won by the "guerrilla tactics" of the colonists, the truth is it was an exceedingly unpopular war, and we were getting our asses kicked until Lafeyette showed up to give us a hand, and French pressure on England in Europe forced a recall of British troops from the colonies to defend the homefront.
Francis Marion and the mountain men beg to differ, they were in no way connected to Lafeyette's training and handed the British their asses with hit and run attacks and running from tree to tree. Welcome to South Carolina buddy, more battles than anywhere else and were the majority of the "guerrilla war" was fought.
As for the topic, a space marine is rendered useless by the amount of funding that is wasted on him, like the f35. We have spent way too much on it but have too much money into the project but for that reason we cant quit.
Psienesis wrote: Ehm... as much as our history books paint the American Revolution being won by the "guerrilla tactics" of the colonists, the truth is it was an exceedingly unpopular war, and we were getting our asses kicked until Lafeyette showed up to give us a hand, and French pressure on England in Europe forced a recall of British troops from the colonies to defend the homefront.
Francis Marion and the mountain men beg to differ, they were in no way connected to Lafeyette's training and handed the British their asses with hit and run attacks and running from tree to tree. Welcome to South Carolina buddy, more battles than anywhere else and were the majority of the "guerrilla war" was fought.
As for the topic, a space marine is rendered useless by the amount of funding that is wasted on him, like the f35. We have spent way too much on it but have too much money into the project but for that reason we cant quit.
Outside normal everyday life for citizens, funding means dick to the Imperiums armed forces. The high lords of terra demand the needs of marines be provided for the survival of humanity. No world will dare ask for money because they know damn well if they reject the continuation of the adeptus astartes, humanity will fall.
The worlds of the Imperium do not pay a tax to the Administratum... they pay a tithe.
What's the difference? Taxes are paid with the expectation of something in return. Tithes? Tithes are paid with no reasonable expectation of getting something back.
You pay taxes to your government, you tithe to your church.
Psienesis wrote: The worlds of the Imperium do not pay a tax to the Administratum... they pay a tithe.
What's the difference? Taxes are paid with the expectation of something in return. Tithes? Tithes are paid with no reasonable expectation of getting something back.
You pay taxes to your government, you tithe to your church.
d3m01iti0n wrote: Because they are awesome, and this is fiction. Really bro really?
So you come onto background discussion forums to say that? Really bro really?
While his post was needlessly dismissive I suppose there is truth to it. The setting runs on Rule of Cool, and Astartes are certainly not an exception.
d3m01iti0n wrote: Because they are awesome, and this is fiction. Really bro really?
So you come onto background discussion forums to say that? Really bro really?
While his post was needlessly dismissive I suppose there is truth to it. The setting runs on Rule of Cool, and Astartes are certainly not an exception.
40k is powered by the rule of cool, rivets, spikes, and skulls. Anything that meets 2 of these criteria probably was inspired by or inspired so,ething in 40K.
Ashiraya wrote:Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle.
They only take ten or so years to be ready for battle. Which seems like a long time, but they are alwaus preparing more in the pipeline, and they serve as scouts for the last several years of that ten.
You have to remember that the Chapter doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are always new recruits coming up in training to replace casualties. They don't just start fresh every time a Marine dies. Each Marine has two sets of progenoid glands, which means each Marine can create two Space Marines, and he only has to die for the second one to be made. So the Chapters have stores of geneseed on hand.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Each Marine has two sets of progenoid glands, which means each Marine can create two Space Marines, and he only has to die for the second one to be made. So the Chapters have stores of geneseed on hand.
On the other hand, you have to recover the second geneseed gland from a dead/dying marine. In a losing battle or some of the environments they fight in it might just not be possible. And the implantation process isn't perfect - even fully genetically compatible recruits can pass all tests and still fail. A Chapter fallen on hard times might actually be unable to reach full strength with just the geneseed they have stored. Even the Blood Angels were once decimated so badly that they had to ask their successors for a gift of recruits and geneseed in order to go on. A less well-known and respected Chapter would be left to die out.
Mr Morden wrote: IIRC It used to be they took the glands out as soon as they had matured and did not have to wait till they were dying?
There's two sets - the first set in the chest takes five years to mature and is usually taken out when ready. The other set is located near the spine, takes ten years to mature and is usually recovered only when the marine dies. Superstition has led the marines to believe that set will carry some of the experiance of the marine who died with it, so it's worth risking losing it in combat because the marine created from it will be "better".
How is this a question!? Lol.. I see plenty of uses for a space marine that is basically a god compared to a normal IG member that is so much stronger, faster, durable, and much more intelligent to start with. I think that figure would be incorrect saying that Astartes is equal to about 10 guardsmen. There is plenty in the fluff that contradicts itself but this is definitely incorrect from all that i have read. A figure more like 100 IG would be more correct easily.
At least in my mind space marines serve an excellent purpose.
MercenStein wrote: At least in my mind space marines serve an excellent purpose.
They do, just not perhaps quite to the god-like levels some fluff or fans would make it out. They're excellent fast-response troops, often striking at enemies of the IoM before the reports have even reached the sector HQ. They're excellent shock troops, fearsome enough that many rebellions end when the Chapter Master asks for it in exchange for his men not attacking the planet. They can be thrown at particularly hardened enemy positions, or sent to attack exotic locations like space hulks and asteroids without any extra preparations.
But they still can't hold ground, they're too few.
Ashiraya wrote:Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle.
They only take ten or so years to be ready for battle. Which seems like a long time, but they are alwaus preparing more in the pipeline, and they serve as scouts for the last several years of that ten.
You have to remember that the Chapter doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are always new recruits coming up in training to replace casualties. They don't just start fresh every time a Marine dies. Each Marine has two sets of progenoid glands, which means each Marine can create two Space Marines, and he only has to die for the second one to be made. So the Chapters have stores of geneseed on hand.
Yes, -now- I know they don't take 70 years. You are responding to a post that is two years old.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Each Marine has two sets of progenoid glands, which means each Marine can create two Space Marines, and he only has to die for the second one to be made. So the Chapters have stores of geneseed on hand.
On the other hand, you have to recover the second geneseed gland from a dead/dying marine. In a losing battle or some of the environments they fight in it might just not be possible. And the implantation process isn't perfect - even fully genetically compatible recruits can pass all tests and still fail. A Chapter fallen on hard times might actually be unable to reach full strength with just the geneseed they have stored. Even the Blood Angels were once decimated so badly that they had to ask their successors for a gift of recruits and geneseed in order to go on. A less well-known and respected Chapter would be left to die out.
I have to disagree. Look at the Crimson Fists, who were slaughtered to 24 brothers on their own home world, yet they would live to prosper as a chapter once more.
Melissia wrote: Space Marines aren't the Emperor's Will made flesh.
That's the Inquisition. Space Marines are myths and legends to most Imperial citizens-- the Emperor's angels of death, as it were. They'll never get to see a Marine anyway-- but the Inquisition is something real that they hope they never have to deal with. The Inquisition is His will, manifest.
To be fair the inquisition is just as mythical to most citizens of the Imperium, but in a much scarier way
jonolikespie wrote: Marine and human power armour is only equal in the table top
Also in the lore, too. So they're only equal in tabletop and the lore.
Sororitas power armor is described as having the same amount of protection as astartes power armor, for example, and sororitas power armor is manufactured in larger quantities than the highly customized suits that inquisitorial agents wear. I would go so far as to say that the power armor that inquisitors wear is far more advanced than what the Astartes have access to. Same with the power armor that the Mechanicus' armed forces wear (in fact, even techpriest power armor is superior in many ways to Astartes power armor, and techpriests are fairly low in the Mechanicus' hierarchy).
They aren't even close to equal in lore. The SoB power armor has been retconned to not offer as much protection, and the inquisitor's never has.
Space Marine armor is mor powerful than human power armor and Space Marines do not view sisters as equal. The SoB do not view each other as equal either
Most information on living saints is in game theory and ambiguous at best. 1 astartes is not equal to 10 guard. It's more like 100 guard for the weakest astartes and 50 SoB
edited again because it changed DHEAD to dill weed and I think that's awesome.
jakejackjake wrote: The SoB power armor has been retconned to not offer as much protection
Where? When? Are you making this up?
jakejackjake wrote: Space Marine armor is mor powerful than human power armor and Space Marines do not view sisters as equal. The SoB do not view each other as equal either
Of course not. Everyone knows one sister is worth 50 marines.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Each Marine has two sets of progenoid glands, which means each Marine can create two Space Marines, and he only has to die for the second one to be made. So the Chapters have stores of geneseed on hand.
On the other hand, you have to recover the second geneseed gland from a dead/dying marine. In a losing battle or some of the environments they fight in it might just not be possible. And the implantation process isn't perfect - even fully genetically compatible recruits can pass all tests and still fail. A Chapter fallen on hard times might actually be unable to reach full strength with just the geneseed they have stored. Even the Blood Angels were once decimated so badly that they had to ask their successors for a gift of recruits and geneseed in order to go on. A less well-known and respected Chapter would be left to die out.
The Blood Angels thing really goes back to the "People writing stories for Games Workshop don't understand how logistics work and are just looking for easy narrative hooks."
Kinda like the "A Space Marine Chapter only has 1000 guys but it takes almost 500 just to crew all their vehicles."
Though from what I understand (haven't read the novel), the Blood Angels problem wasn't a lack of geneseed, it was a lack of recruits, period. That could be a problem in the short term.
Think about the Blood Angels for a second. A chapter tithes 10% of their gene seed for testing. Okay, so that leaves them with 90% that they get to keep. They're only allowed to have 1000 Marines at a time, but each Marine gets 2 progenoid glands. Even if we were to say that fully 50% of Space Marine geneseed is irrecoverable, either through failed recruits or lost/obliterated battlefield casualties, they're still getting 1500 Space Marines out of every full Chapter's worth of Marines they go through.
Now, let's ignore attrition, and assume that the average Space Marine lives for 400 years (this will give us a low-end estimate). It's been 10,000 years since the adoption of the Codex Astartes. That means the Blood Angels have gone through roughly 25 full Chapters worth of Marines since the Heresy. That gives them 37,500 sets of geneseed, of which they tithe 3750 to the AdMech for testing. The Blood Angels have 33750 sets of geneseed, using 25,000 sets for the actual Space Marines they've created, leaving them 13,750 unused and stored sets of progenoid glands. I mean, we an fiddle with the numbers if we say the AdMech tithe is before losses, but you can see the point here. A First Founding Chapter like the Blood Angels can't even potentially run out of geneseed without some kind of major catastrophe like losing their home planet or some kind of nefarious plan to wholesale destroy massive stocks of it.
A 25th or 26th Founding Chapter? Maybe. But even a 23rd Founding Chapter has almost three full chapters worth of stored geneseed alone.
Space Marine armor is mor powerful than human power armor and Space Marines do not view sisters as equal. The SoB do not view each other as equal either
Most information on living saints is in game theory and ambiguous at best. 1 astartes is not equal to 10 guard. It's more like 100 guard for the weakest astartes and 50 SoB
edited again because it changed DHEAD to dill weed and I think that's awesome.
yes and no - many Space Marines do not regard anyone other than their own Chapter brothers as equals and usually have to be shown the value of a given Guardsman/woman, Sororitas, Inquisitor etc through their deeds. Most Marines when show the worthyness of such indivudals accept them as equals
The Living Saint/s are facts - what they are is debatable............same as some of the stranger elements in the Blood Angels and other Chapters?
Sororitas and Inquisitoral Power armour offers as much protection as Astartes - however Inquisitors can have at least Artificier grade armour as well.... Sororitas don't have the black carapace so can't access all the advantages of power armour but Inquistors can have a neural interface bodyglove which does the same thing.........they can also have Temrinator armour, force fields and all sorts of Xenos and forbidden Tech.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Bullets make horrible exit holes, if a bullet goes into you and goes through you're a dead man, if a fragment goes into you and goes through you (not that it really would) it'd be a far smaller hole, and you'd have more of a chance of survival.
Modern military small-caliber bullets are meant to wound, not kill outright (though a high spine hit, head hit or huge bleeding is usually exit). Why, you might ask? Because a wounded man needs help (bandages, medicine, a hospital) while a dead man can be used as an extra sandbag. A wounded man afraid to die saps morale far worse with his screaming than a silent dead guy ever can. And it takes two healthy men to get the one wounded man out.
If a guy with a bullet wound (or several) makes it to a proper hospital he's got something like a 90% chance to live. Not life without problems, perhaps, but life anyway. People can be killed by the smallest thing but we're also very resilient if it didn't kill immediately.
That's not how weapons are designed to fit, that's what landmines are for. They're meant to wound an army to the point of retreat, bullets are meant to kill people. Not many people survive gunshot wounds, there's a reason for that.
As far as table top casualties, not because a model was removed from play, I never saw that as actually "killing" the model but simply the target was rendered useless in the battle and removed as a casualty. Do some of them die? Of course but not all, there are fluff examples to support this as well. Looking at models removed in this way is how named characters stick around after the battle for you to use them in the next one.
If Mordrak is taken down in a game I am playing, I don't see that as Mordrak dying but as Mordrak being incapacitated.
The only time this explanation doesn't work is if a unit is completely vaporized or sucked into the warp but just in terms of units getting wounded off the board, not all die and so that they can be healed and fight another day.
They aren't even close to equal in lore. The SoB power armor has been retconned to not offer as much protection, and the inquisitor's never has.
Citation needed.
I don't even think it was "retconned". The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop, but that's because the tabletop uses margins of 16.7%, and there's no way to have a quantifiable difference between a 3+ and a different 3+. Though he's definitely wrong that they "aren't even close". They're definitely comparable, and a deal better than non-powered armor, even if the Sisters version lacks the black carapace, enhanced lifesaving capabilites, and has inferior strength enhancement.
But Inquisitor (the game, a Games Workshop official product and source) had Space Marine power armor being better than just regular power armor by about 30% better protection, as well as all the aditional systems. Neither Inquisitors nor Sororitas were afforded that differential in Inquisitor, so that's pretty much the basic qualifier right there. Technically both systems are inferior to that which the Space Marines wear.
But this whole thread is an exercise in pedantry and one-upsmanship, which is unsurprising given the subject matter and the unsavory posters who tend to come along any time there's a suggestion that Space Marines might be better than Sisters of Battle.
They aren't even close to equal in lore. The SoB power armor has been retconned to not offer as much protection, and the inquisitor's never has.
Citation needed.
I don't even think it was "retconned". The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop, but that's because the tabletop uses margins of 16.7%, and there's no way to have a quantifiable difference between a 3+ and a different 3+. Though he's definitely wrong that they "aren't even close". They're definitely comparable, and a deal better than non-powered armor, even if the Sisters version lacks the black carapace, enhanced lifesaving capabilites, and has inferior strength enhancement.
But Inquisitor (the game, a Games Workshop official product and source) had Space Marine power armor being better than just regular power armor by about 30% better protection, as well as all the aditional systems. Neither Inquisitors nor Sororitas were afforded that differential in Inquisitor, so that's pretty much the basic qualifier right there. Technically both systems are inferior to that which the Space Marines wear.
But this whole thread is an exercise in pedantry and one-upsmanship, which is unsurprising given the subject matter and the unsavory posters who tend to come along any time there's a suggestion that Space Marines might be better than Sisters of Battle.
Agreed the Sororitas Power armour is similar but lacks the direct interface, some of the tech and full strength boost.....
Did Inquisitor ever have stats for Sororitas armour - I don't recall it? Must have a look......
Since there are no average Inquisitors or their equipment its virtually impossible to compare them - one might have a suit of basic armour whilst another may have a relic artifcer armour with so much cool stuff that they can go toe to toe with Genestealer Brood Lords.
I think one can look to modern military problems to understand why SM are potentially very useful:
1. For the IDF, they engage in a policy of assassination against their terrorist opponents. Hamas, knowing this, has most likely put their command post underneath the primary hospital in Gaza, ironically in a bunker built by the Israelis. Israel doesn't have a force to launch a powerful pinpoint strike into the heart of the opposition defenses and Israel doesn't want to level the Hospital to reach the bunker.
Enter IDF Mandatory Service Space Marines (tm). They can be dropped into the middle of Gaza city fight their way into the bunker, kill the Hamas leadership, then leave in a hail of fire on their IDF Mandatory Service Space Marine Thunderbolts (tm)^2. As the IDF Mandatory Service Space Marines are highly trained soldiers, they can be instructed to cause less damage than several one ton bunker-busting bombs.
2. The leader of ISIS is a seriously bad person, both for brutality and his successes. The US would want to kill him, but may not be able to find him or reach his location with enough force.
Enter US Freedom Space Marines (FSM) (tm), with Scouts!. The genetically enhanced FSM Scouts can hide in the desert for weeks/ months tracking the ISIS chief. When he is found, a team of FSM Terminators can drop on his location, kill him, then extract in a hail of gunfire on the Freedom Space Marine Thunderhawk (tm)^3.
The concept of Space Marines, heavily armored shock troops with heavy technological and doctrinal support geared towards pin-point strikes, would be very useful for contemporary militaries facing contemporary problems.
But, it is interesting to note when Space Marines would not work.
Say that it is 1984, and the Soviets decide to invade Western Germany through the North German Plain. If the British Army of the Rhine had Fusilier Space Marines (tm), they're usefulness isn't immediately apparent.
The Soviet Forces are likely designed to survive some level of decapitation strikes, so Fusilier Space Marine attacks against command posts isn't decisive. The BOAR couldn't reasonably field enough Space Marines to have influence over more than one battle zone. However, the scale of the war is so large that localized successes are likely unimportant.
In short, a BAOR Fusilier Space Marine isn't an immediately decisive force in a WW3 situation on the North German Plain.
Applied to WH40k: if the Imperium faces a large number of 'small' opposition, the Space Marine force is useful for applying that decisive force at the key position. The limited number of Space Marines becomes much more restrictive as the scale of the conflict increases.
Which leads to the humorous conclusion:
Space Marines, the ultimate COIN force.
DrRansom wrote: I think one can look to modern military problems to understand why SM are potentially very useful:1. For the IDF, they engage in a policy of assassination against their terrorist opponents. Hamas, knowing this, has most likely put their command post underneath the primary hospital in Gaza, ironically in a bunker built by the Israelis. Israel doesn't have a force to launch a powerful pinpoint strike into the heart of the opposition defenses and Israel doesn't want to level the Hospital to reach the bunker.
Enter IDF Mandatory Service Space Marines (tm). They can be dropped into the middle of Gaza city fight their way into the bunker, kill the Hamas leadership, then leave in a hail of fire on their IDF Mandatory Service Space Marine Thunderbolts (tm)^2. As the IDF Mandatory Service Space Marines are highly trained soldiers, they can be instructed to cause less damage than several one ton bunker-busting bombs.
This is a bad comparison because the Imperium does not care about "civilian" casualties. The hospital is full of xenos and/or heretics that will have to be exterminated anyway, so blowing it up with the same bomb that destroys the command post would be considered efficient use of valuable ammunition.
2. The leader of ISIS is a seriously bad person, both for brutality and his successes. The US would want to kill him, but may not be able to find him or reach his location with enough force.
Enter US Freedom Space Marines (FSM) (tm), with Scouts!. The genetically enhanced FSM Scouts can hide in the desert for weeks/ months tracking the ISIS chief. When he is found, a team of FSM Terminators can drop on his location, kill him, then extract in a hail of gunfire on the Freedom Space Marine Thunderhawk (tm)^3.
Why bother with the terminators? Pinpoint the target's location, drop an orbital bombardment on them. Same end result, except without the need to tie up priceless space marines for weeks just in case the enemy leader is found.
Because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid. A pinpoint Terminator strike that broke the back of the enemy war machine would bring glory to the chapter.
In fact, that's the answer to this thread. Space Marines exist because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid.
TheCustomLime wrote: Space Marines exist because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid.
At first glance it wasn't an answer, but at a second you are right. The marines seem wasteful and stupid too, but on the occasion where they end a war before the enemy general has made his "fight to the last man" speech they bring in that coin many times over.
No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.
No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.
It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.
Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.
No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.
And why is that? Because it's in the tabletop rules, lol. And the specific wording in that codex is "degree of protection" which is an approximate measurement, not a specific one.
Again, in both Inquisitor, and the less authoritative Dark Heresy/Deathwatch, the armor is lighter. But again, this argument is pedantic, and the SoB fan "selective canonicity" argument comes into play, lol.
TheCustomLime wrote: Because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid. A pinpoint Terminator strike that broke the back of the enemy war machine would bring glory to the chapter.
In fact, that's the answer to this thread. Space Marines exist because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid.
Orbital bombardments are more complicated than you think and it would be a waste of resources using an orbital bomb to take out one man. Terminators can accurately get the job done.
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Ashiraya wrote: The Space Marines codex says, in a very definite manner, that the Astartes are humanity's foremost defense.
It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.
I don't know about the laws of physics but it does show the rules don't really portray the background.
Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.
A good point and one that you can also apply to the various Marks of Space Marine Power Armour. Iron Armour, made with extra thick frontal armour, basically turns the Marine into a walking tank; save 3+. Heresy Armour made with inferior materials and techniques, held together with rivets; save 3+.
Using the rules isn't helpful which ever game system is used but Astartes is armour is described as the pinnacle of Power Armour technology which seems a pretty emphatic statement to me.
No. It is on a fluff page that contains nothing but fluff. I can scan it, but I have the French version. Looks like that:
Spoiler:
Veteran Sergeant wrote: And the specific wording in that codex is "degree of protection" which is an approximate measurement, not a specific one.
So, what would be a specific one?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Again, in both Inquisitor, and the less authoritative Dark Heresy/Deathwatch, the armor is lighter.
I just looked through my Inquisitor rulebook, there is no mention of any Sister of Battle. Was that from a supplement? I do not have Dark Heresy or Deathwatch.
Ashiraya wrote: It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.
Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.
Well, that is one among the many, many things that make no sense about 40k. Especially if we take your “space marines are extra-über strong” views.
No. It is on a fluff page that contains nothing but fluff. I can scan it, but I have the French version.
Looks like that:
Spoiler:
Veteran Sergeant wrote: And the specific wording in that codex is "degree of protection" which is an approximate measurement, not a specific one.
So, what would be a specific one?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Again, in both Inquisitor, and the less authoritative Dark Heresy/Deathwatch, the armor is lighter.
I just looked through my Inquisitor rulebook, there is no mention of any Sister of Battle. Was that from a supplement?
I do not have Dark Heresy or Deathwatch.
Ashiraya wrote: It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.
Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.
Well, that is one among the many, many things that make no sense about 40k. Especially if we take your “space marines are extra-über strong” views.
While I do believe the protection of non-astartes PA is sufficient, it doesn't necessarily reach the protection offered by astartes power armour (though it may come close).
Also, just for fun, every character in Inquisitor is way underpowered compared to the space marine. But take the same characters in 40k, and… it is just the opposite! Suddenly arcoflagellants, death cultists and inquisitors will eat tacticals for breakfast! Which makes no sense, I agree.
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Lord Tarkin wrote: While I do believe the protection of non-astartes PA is sufficient, it doesn't necessarily reach the protection offered by astartes power armour (though it may come close).
Well, my book says it offer the same level of protection, but lacks the survival mechanics and strength enhancement offered by Astartes PA. Also that might help Ashiraya rationalize stuff: this mechanism that apparently turn space marine urine into new nutriments will surely take some room in the armor while providing next to no additional protection, same for the additional servos.
Psienesis wrote: FFG's publications treat Sisters fairly badly and make them Space-Witches, so should be largely discounted from any discussion of the faction.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Also, just for fun, every character in Inquisitor is way underpowered compared to the space marine. But take the same characters in 40k, and… it is just the opposite! Suddenly arcoflagellants, death cultists and inquisitors will eat tacticals for breakfast! Which makes no sense, I agree.
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Lord Tarkin wrote: While I do believe the protection of non-astartes PA is sufficient, it doesn't necessarily reach the protection offered by astartes power armour (though it may come close).
Well, my book says it offer the same level of protection, but lacks the survival mechanics and strength enhancement offered by Astartes PA. Also that might help Ashiraya rationalize stuff: this mechanism that apparently turn space marine urine into new nutriments will surely take some room in the armor while providing next to no additional protection, same for the additional servos.
"Whilst power armour is most commonly associated with the Adeptus Astartes, the Sisters of Battle and many Inquisitors also use powered armour of one sort or another. Typically however these armours may not contain the same strength-enhancing properties or life-support functions of Space Marine power armour, nor do they provide the same amount of protection." -Lexicanum
But keep in mind relic is the same company that created Spacemarine, which is about a SM captain and two command squad members steamrolling an entire ork waagh and destroying a Chaos invasion. The game was fun and the beginning was believable but it lost sense at the end.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Also that might help Ashiraya rationalize stuff: this mechanism that apparently turn space marine urine into new nutriments will surely take some room in the armor while providing next to no additional protection, same for the additional servos.
It should be noted that the above-mentioned Lexicanum quote is not attributed to a source, it's just a statement in the article. This is where the "citation needed" tag would best apply.
Also, from that very same Lexicanum article:
Lexicanum wrote:Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]
Emphasis mine, and that is a quote from Codex: Witch-Hunters. I believe it is repeated in Codex: Daemon-Hunters as a side comment, but can't recall exactly.
Psienesis wrote: It should be noted that the above-mentioned Lexicanum quote is not attributed to a source, it's just a statement in the article. This is where the "citation needed" tag would best apply.
Also, from that very same Lexicanum article:
Lexicanum wrote:Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]
Emphasis mine, and that is a quote from Codex: Witch-Hunters. I believe it is repeated in Codex: Daemon-Hunters as a side comment, but can't recall exactly.
Wow, I suddenly hate Lexicanum with a passion. Excuse me for arguing.
And I can edit Lexicanicum so that it agrees with me.
So?
Lord Tarkin wrote: But keep in mind relic is the same company that created Spacemarine, which is about a SM captain and two command squad members steamrolling an entire ork waagh and destroying a Chaos invasion. The game was fun and the beginning was believable but it lost sense at the end.
That is a solo video game, so I would say it is pretty tame. Have you played Doom, Serious Sam, Painkiller, Metal Slug, Duke Nukem, etc? Usually your lone hero/small group of heroes can destroy whole invasions forces/evil empire all by him/her/themselves.
I am pretty sure that if the game had been “Sister of Battle” rather than “Space Marine”, the player character would have been able to accomplish the same feat. And maybe even better through the “magical power of faith death ray superpower” or something.
None in favor, none against, and it provide an explanation. You can either accept this explanation, look for a better one, or accept the lack of logic. It is entirely up to you.
"That is a solo video game, so I would say it is pretty tame. Have you played Doom, Serious Sam, Painkiller, Metal Slug, Duke Nukem, etc? Usually your lone hero/small group of heroes can destroy whole invasions forces/evil empire all by him/her/themselves.
I am pretty sure that if the game had been “Sister of Battle” rather than “Space Marine”, the player character would have been able to accomplish the same feat. And maybe even better through the “magical power of faith death ray superpower” or something." -Hybrid son of Oxayotl
I'm just saying, it shouldn't be taken as canon because of it.
I am sorry, I do not understand what you mean.
I think Relic was pretty fair to Sisters of Battle, and certainly treated them way better than GW did during the last 10 years. So, not everyone treats them terribly, just GW.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I am sorry, I do not understand what you mean.
I think Relic was pretty fair to Sisters of Battle, and certainly treated them way better than GW did during the last 10 years. So, not everyone treats them terribly, just GW.
As far as I could tell, those sisters were butchering Chaos marines. While it avenges them in the hands of GW, it is over-doing it. GW doesn't give the sisters enough and relic gave the sisters to much. They need to be balanced.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Orbital bombardments are more complicated than you think and it would be a waste of resources using an orbital bomb to take out one man. Terminators can accurately get the job done.
1) Orbital bombardments are no more complicated than delivering marines. If you have a ship in orbit that can teleport in terminators you can just have it shoot its guns at the target. If you can send a drop pod you can send a missile instead.
2) You're not just killing one man, you're killing a whole hospital full of xenos and/or heretics, along with the commander's bodyguards/other officers/etc. And if you use a big enough bomb you can destroy a few square miles of city around the target as well, potentially killing millions of xenos and/or heretics.
3) A squad of terminators represents a MUCH bigger resource commitment than a bomb. Remember, space marines are absurdly rare, and terminators are even rarer than "normal" space marines. Holding a whole squad of them in reserve to deal with a mere command bunker is like sending the entire US army to deal with a single bank robber.
Terminators can walk into a base that a drop-pod or teleporter can't penetrate, an orbital bobmardment can not.
Furthermore, a drop-pod also isn't going to destroy that priceless relic that the Mechanicum has your balls in a vice to go recover, whereas an orbital bombardment very easily could.
BlaxicanX wrote: Terminators can walk into a base that a drop-pod or teleporter can't penetrate, an orbital bobmardment can not.
How exactly are they supposed to penetrate this super armor/shield that can survive an orbital bombardment that would make real-world nukes look like a pretty fireworks display? Walk up and politely ask the defenders to open their defenses and let them in?
Furthermore, a drop-pod also isn't going to destroy that priceless relic that the Mechanicum has your balls in a vice to go recover, whereas an orbital bombardment very easily could.
Even ignoring the high probability of that relic sitting on top of a bomb on a dead man's switch carried by its owner there's a pretty good chance that the relic would be damaged or destroyed by stray shooting. After all, marines aren't exactly subtle and the anti-marine weapons the enemy would use against them only add to the damage risk.
Plus, now we're talking about a priceless relic, not a mere enemy commander in a bunker underneath a hospital. That's one of the very few jobs that marines might be useful for, but the question is whether there are enough priceless relics to recover to justify spending vast amounts of resources on space marines that are horrifyingly inefficient for anything else.
BlaxicanX wrote: Terminators can walk into a base that a drop-pod or teleporter can't penetrate, an orbital bobmardment can not.
How exactly are they supposed to penetrate this super armor/shield that can survive an orbital bombardment that would make real-world nukes look like a pretty fireworks display? Walk up and politely ask the defenders to open their defenses and let them in?
Furthermore, a drop-pod also isn't going to destroy that priceless relic that the Mechanicum has your balls in a vice to go recover, whereas an orbital bombardment very easily could.
Even ignoring the high probability of that relic sitting on top of a bomb on a dead man's switch carried by its owner there's a pretty good chance that the relic would be damaged or destroyed by stray shooting. After all, marines aren't exactly subtle and the anti-marine weapons the enemy would use against them only add to the damage risk.
Plus, now we're talking about a priceless relic, not a mere enemy commander in a bunker underneath a hospital. That's one of the very few jobs that marines might be useful for, but the question is whether there are enough priceless relics to recover to justify spending vast amounts of resources on space marines that are horrifyingly inefficient for anything else.
The Imperium would be the unmatched ruler of the galaxy if everything was as easy as you say it is. Gee, wish we could just drop nukes on people we don't like.
First off, there is no telling the Imperial fleet will be able to determine this guys position. An army of IG will have to be deployed to do battle with the enemy and eventually find this guys location and when they do, terminators will teleport in, take him out and the IG can finish the war.
Lord Tarkin wrote: The Imperium would be the unmatched ruler of the galaxy if everything was as easy as you say it is. Gee, wish we could just drop nukes on people we don't like.
Well yes, that's the entire point of the setting! The Imperium is an insane theocracy that does more harm to itself than its enemies could even dream of. If the replaced their idiotic religious beliefs with science and pragmatism their overwhelming size and resources would allow them to crush everything in their path. But they don't, and therefore humanity is doomed to a slow and painful death.
First off, there is no telling the Imperial fleet will be able to determine this guys position.
So how exactly are they supposed to teleport a squad of terminators into his bunker to kill him?
An army of IG will have to be deployed to do battle with the enemy and eventually find this guys location and when they do, terminators will teleport in, take him out and the IG can finish the war.
Ok, so now you're going to hold a priceless squad of terminators in orbit indefinitely while the guardsmen do their job. This isn't deploying the entire US army to deal with a single bank robber, it's deploying the entire US army to defend a random bank because someday someone might try to rob it. Instead of wasting terminators on such a pointless mission the proper solution is to let the IG identify the location and then call in an orbital bombardment/Basilisk barrage/etc on it until everything is dead.
Lord Tarkin wrote: The Imperium would be the unmatched ruler of the galaxy if everything was as easy as you say it is. Gee, wish we could just drop nukes on people we don't like.
Well yes, that's the entire point of the setting! The Imperium is an insane theocracy that does more harm to itself than its enemies could even dream of. If the replaced their idiotic religious beliefs with science and pragmatism their overwhelming size and resources would allow them to crush everything in their path. But they don't, and therefore humanity is doomed to a slow and painful death.
First off, there is no telling the Imperial fleet will be able to determine this guys position.
So how exactly are they supposed to teleport a squad of terminators into his bunker to kill him?
An army of IG will have to be deployed to do battle with the enemy and eventually find this guys location and when they do, terminators will teleport in, take him out and the IG can finish the war.
Ok, so now you're going to hold a priceless squad of terminators in orbit indefinitely while the guardsmen do their job. This isn't deploying the entire US army to deal with a single bank robber, it's deploying the entire US army to defend a random bank because someday someone might try to rob it. Instead of wasting terminators on such a pointless mission the proper solution is to let the IG identify the location and then call in an orbital bombardment/Basilisk barrage/etc on it until everything is dead.
BlaxicanX wrote: Terminators can walk into a base that a drop-pod or teleporter can't penetrate, an orbital bobmardment can not.
How exactly are they supposed to penetrate this super armor/shield that can survive an orbital bombardment that would make real-world nukes look like a pretty fireworks display? Walk up and politely ask the defenders to open their defenses and let them in?
The same way everyone else gets in. The same way air gets in, or plumbing. An orbital bombardment can only engage from one direction, the sky down. Individuals on foot can approach a strong-point from multiple directions.
Even ignoring the high probability of that relic sitting on top of a bomb on a dead man's switch carried by its owner there's a pretty good chance that the relic would be damaged or destroyed by stray shooting. After all, marines aren't exactly subtle and the anti-marine weapons the enemy would use against them only add to the damage risk.
Actually, no. Space Marines are extremely precise when they care to be. Their aim and awareness of collateral damage is vastly superior to any other Human troops in the Imperium. Space Marines excel at fighting in environments where "a single stray shot" can result in everyone in the vicinity getting killed by explosive decompression.
Plus, now we're talking about a priceless relic, not a mere enemy commander in a bunker underneath a hospital. That's one of the very few jobs that marines might be useful for, but the question is whether there are enough priceless relics to recover to justify spending vast amounts of resources on space marines that are horrifyingly inefficient for anything else.
You can switch relic with enemy commander- the principle remains the same. There are many situations where sending in a crack team of individuals is required over simply bombing everything into oblivion. And, again, I'm just adopting your own argument here for why the Imperial Guard even exist. Why bother sending in the Guard to fight an army when you can just blow it up from space or with aircraft?
As for justification of resources- this is the Imperium of Man. Don't back out on your own principles and start asserting that they function via logic and efficiency. If the Mechanicum wants something. they get it.
Well that was a very constructive post. 10/10, would read again.
BlaxicanX wrote: The same way everyone else gets in. The same way air gets in, or plumbing. An orbital bombardment can only engage from one direction, the sky down. Individuals on foot can approach a strong-point from multiple directions.
But the orbital bombardment can engage with many orders of magnitude greater firepower. And a space marine isn't going to be able to get in through a water pipe or air vent that is only a few inches in diameter. So that means trying to break down the door or cut through the walls, and I doubt a marine is going to be able to do anything against doors or walls that can survive megaton-level (or worse!) orbital bombardment shots, even when it hits the roof of the bunker instead of directly on the door.
Actually, no. Space Marines are extremely precise when they care to be. Their aim and awareness of collateral damage is vastly superior to any other Human troops in the Imperium. Space Marines excel at fighting in environments where "a single stray shot" can result in everyone in the vicinity getting killed by explosive decompression.
They use miniature grenade launchers as their standard weapon. It doesn't matter how good your aim is if every shot results in a frag grenade going off inside your target. And, given the fact that space marines wear sealed armor with a built-in air supply the first thing they should do is blow a hole in the hull and kill everyone who isn't a space marine.
You can switch relic with enemy commander- the principle remains the same.
No you can't, because an enemy commander is not something that needs to be taken intact. If all you need to do is kill something then just nuke it from orbit.
And, again, I'm just adopting your own argument here for why the Imperial Guard even exist. Why bother sending in the Guard to fight an army when you can just blow it up from space or with aircraft?
Because the IG are able to hold an objective, not just kill everything in the general area. That's something space marines can't do effectively because of their ridiculously limited numbers. If GW had a better sense of scale then this might be different, but we're stuck with marine numbers in the "less than one marine per planet" range which means that even a single tactical squad is an almost-priceless asset that most commanders can only dream of having. And that single tactical squad has no hope of holding ground for very long, simply because they will run out of ammunition before the enemy runs out of troops to send against them, and space marines die very quickly when the enemy is allowed to concentrate a dozen krak missiles or lascannons on every marine.
In short, marines depend on smashing something and getting out before they get overwhelmed by sheer numbers. IG don't.
As for justification of resources- this is the Imperium of Man. Don't back out on your own principles and start asserting that they function via logic and efficiency. If the Mechanicum wants something. they get it.
I'm not backing out of any principles. In fact that's the whole point of my argument: the Imperium is irrational and stupid, and space marines represent a horrifying waste of resources. Obviously the Imperium has reasons for making more space marines, but those reasons are stupid. And yes, the Imperium's attitude of "science and engineering are heresy, therefore we must waste obscene amounts of resources on recovering technology" is stupid.
They sorta come across (in my opinion) as fascists in space, imposing and forcing their rule on to planets that due not yield and ally with a husk on a throne.
Space Marines are their to purge the Mutant, Alien, Unclean you know, all that jazz that 1,000,000,000,000,000 Imperial Guardsmen cant deal with.
Lord Tarkin wrote: So, in Peregrines opinion, IG and SM shouldn't exist, just use orbital bombs.
Ah yes, another constructive post from you. Perhaps instead of posting nonsense like this you could read my previous post where I explained why IG are useful even though orbital bombardment exists? Here, I'll even re-post it for you:
Because the IG are able to hold an objective, not just kill everything in the general area. That's something space marines can't do effectively because of their ridiculously limited numbers. If GW had a better sense of scale then this might be different, but we're stuck with marine numbers in the "less than one marine per planet" range which means that even a single tactical squad is an almost-priceless asset that most commanders can only dream of having. And that single tactical squad has no hope of holding ground for very long, simply because they will run out of ammunition before the enemy runs out of troops to send against them, and space marines die very quickly when the enemy is allowed to concentrate a dozen krak missiles or lascannons on every marine.
In short, marines depend on smashing something and getting out before they get overwhelmed by sheer numbers. IG don't.
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. Which, I admit, has tons and tons of plot armor, but apart from that, no power.
