I know a lot of 40K background, and as I studied different sources I have noted one thing.
Using Space Marines is foolish.
Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle. He needs high-quality training, extremely expensive armor and weapons, and simply consumes a ton of resources.
And yet, look at the losses that the marines take. I am not only talking about the tabletop game itself (where casualties are ludicrous) but I am also talking about the books, for example. My conclusion is that they are so extremely resource-inefficient so that they should have stopped using them long ago. Ten guardsmen is seemingly, according to a quote (Imperial Fists Primarch, I believe, but I am no certain) equivalent to one Space Marine. However, if we look at the cost in time and resources, we are looking at Space Marines consuming a hundred, if not a thousand times the resources a guardsman do, if you count everything in. While I am sure Space Marines have their uses; sudden overwhelming spear-point assaults, for example- surely it is not worth such a cost?
Kharn slaughtered an entire planet in a night, and shattered two legions on his own. yes, he is chaos aligned, but that alone should make you see the value of having a thousand similar (or at least close to) soldiers at your disposal.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
Yes, but Guardsmen still seem more resource-effective in that matter. Stormtroopers are seemingly not far behind Space Marines and takes a LOT less resources.
Kharn slaughtered an entire planet in a night, and shattered two legions on his own. yes, he is chaos aligned, but that alone should make you see the value of having a thousand similar (or at least close to) soldiers at your disposal.
Kharn is Kharn. He is a special character. I am sure Loldraigo is resource-effective. I am not talking about the characters here, though; I am questioning the existence of a Space Marine warforce in the Imperium's armies.
Some times it's more effective to have 1 million supermen that operate by themselves rather than going through the Bureaucracy of the imperium to deliver the IG there,
Also the Space Marines as stated above are more concentrated in terms of power.
ie a Drop Pod inserting 10 Marines where more than 100 guardsmen would of been needed is a lot more effective and easier to pull off
Force concentration, it really is the only reason. A Space Marine is the single-most powerful concentration of toughness and firepower in one trooper. Granted, the firepower can be "copied" by any IG special weapons trooper, but he just won't stay alive as long, not to mention the close combat capabilities.
Don't let standard 40k tabletop fool you - whilst the rules are imho quite accurate to GW fluff, the battles with their equal point values on both sides aren't. The Marines' high mobility allows them to deploy just about anywhere and pick their battles, so that they can often utilise this advantage to the fullest by attacking weak points in an enemy's defense, or simply mass their forces for a focused blow to punch open a hole for their allies to follow through. Rarely would they actually commit to a "fair fight", only when there is no other way or when the area is a key tactical position that needs to be taken no matter what.
I have been told this is somewhat better represented in 40k Epic, where troop movements and deployment play a larger role than in the standard TT skirmishes.
Also, I'm really not sure about those 70 years ... Again going by GW fluff, Marine aspirants are recruited at age 10-14, with the implantation process being completed 4-6 years later, after which they become Scouts. I have no idea how long a newly minted Scout stays one, but I'm fairly sure it's not 60 years, except perhaps in some really obscure Chapter that does not see battle all that often. I always assumed that Scouts are Scouts for, like, 5-20 years or so, depending on the Chapter and the individual's conduct, i.e. when the Sergeant thinks "you're ready".
Let's not forget that, in spite of the rampant rumours about Marine longevity, GW fluff says that they usually live "only" 2-3 times longer than a normal man, and 60 years as a Scout sounds like a waste to me.
Lastly, also note that today's Imperium is not what the Emperor imagined. Space Marines were created as shock troops to pave a way for humanity through the stars. Back when they were created, there was no galaxy-spanning Imperial Guard but lots more Marines. As the Great Crusade went on, the Imperial Army - recruited from the normal human inhabitants of liberated lost colonies - slowly grew larger and larger, and their role in supporting the Astartes more and more important.
"Today" in the 41st millennium, their importance is switched. It is the Imperial Guard that holds the Imperium together, and the few remaining Space Marines who play a supporting role by being a strategic asset. In essence, their continued existence is a matter of tradition for the Imperium. In a way, they are not needed anymore, they are "just" still very nice to have, and have a place in the Imperial military due to history and past accomplishments.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Stormtroopers are seemingly not far behind Space Marines and takes a LOT less resources.
Ironically, there are less IG Storm Troopers than Space Marines - at least if you go by Codex fluff. Speaks volumes about their requirements. Just about any young male with a fitting genetic makeup can be made into Astartes (which also explains how most Chapters can get along recruiting from just a single planet), but few graduates of the galaxy-wide Schola program are tough enough to become Storm Troopers.
Granted, there's also Cadian Kasrkin recruited just from the few worlds in the Cadian system and supposedly just as good as Munitorum STs. Then again, they have a 100% recruitment rate.
I think the dispersed nature of everything in the imperium argues for continued deployment of marines too. You read all the time about tallaran troops being dropped off on some random ice planet with no winter clothes, or stuff like that. Every marine can fight in pretty much any environment at a moments notice. Plus they are scattered all over, so they function like tripwires for the massive sledgehammer that is the guard.
Stormtroopers would make poor substitutes for Marines. In terms of overall numbers, there are 10000 munitorium Stormies at any one time in the entire Imperium. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are most likely more numerous, but they are specialist troops for Ordo deployments.
The Kasrkin are the most numerous Stormtroopers before you drop down to vets and grenadiers, but again, most of them are already committed to combat zones across Cadia holding back the Black Legion.
And this is all without going through the logistics nightmares of the IG.
The troll in me wants to say "Well, awesome according to certain low-standard definitions of awesome anyway."
Really, they just exist to sell models. But in the lore, originally I think the Emperor was wanting to have the armed forces be marines to a much larger extent, to maximize their effect on the battlefield.
However, Marines proved they couldn't be trusted, ergo the codex astartes.
Besides, you're all overlooking the Space Marine's greatest strategic asset: plot armor. If the Imperium absolutely needs to capture an objective no matter what, they deploy Space Marines because, inevitably, a ragged handful of tragic heroes in power armor will survive to claim victory.
1.) Marines are a lot more capable in fluff then they are on the table.
2.) They are the tip of the spear, used to break an enemy or lead an assault that would otherwise take huge amounts of Imperial Guard resources that the Imperium can't afford to spend given how overstreched it is.
Lynata wrote: In a way, they are not needed anymore, they are "just" still very nice to have, and have a place in the Imperial military due to history and past accomplishments.
It's explicitly stated in the rulebook that with the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago. They are still needed.
Speaks volumes about their requirements. Just about any young male with a fitting genetic makeup can be made into Astartes
Can be, but aren't. Only the best are chosen (except possibly in a Chapter on the verge of collapse).
Lynata wrote: In a way, they are not needed anymore, they are "just" still very nice to have, and have a place in the Imperial military due to history and past accomplishments.
It's explicitly stated in the rulebook that with the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago.
And without the Imperial Guard, the Imperium would effectively cease to be, instantly. Or the Mechanicus, or the Administratium, or the Scholastica Psykana, or the Navis Nobilites... in the end, the Astartes are much, much less important than most other Imperial organizations.
All of them work together to keep the Imperium running of course. The Astartes to a much lesser extent, but they still do their part. Sometimes.
First rule of economics is the scarcity principle. In order to gain more of one thing you have to have less of something else. I honestly think this is a very fun question. It reminds me of a similar debate in Fall of Reach and Oynx in Halo. Essentially the creators of the Spartan program are forced to justify why their super soldiers are worth the massive investment. In Halo the argument is that essentially they are filling a role that no other force in the galaxy can fill. But later on ONI essentially concede that the program was really meant as a wave of reducing collateral damage in a civil war and that they aren't worth the cost in the war against the Covenant. That leads to the creation of the Spartan III program. Essentially cost effective suicide Spartans. The problem is the Imperium has no innovation. So you are stuck with a Space Marine program that still fulfills a unique purpose but hasn't adapted as effectively to the new millennium.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: And without the Imperial Guard, the Imperium would effectively cease to be, instantly. Or the Mechanicus, or the Administratium, or the Scholastica Psykana, or the Navis Nobilites... in the end, the Astartes are much, much less important than most other Imperial organizations.
True, but the Astartes are still needed. They're worth their cost.
Monster Rain wrote: I don't see how it's inefficient to have 1,000 or less Space Marines do something that would take 100 times that number of Imperial Guard.
`
Studio fluff, and in universe quotes, put the ratio at 10-1.
Now, the reason there are space marines is pretty much tradition. Sure they are great force concentrators, however they are not meant for long drawn out campaigns. They also are one of the first lines of the defense, and when the situation can no longer be handled by the space marines, the Imperial guard is called in. [2nd Edition IG codex]
They are the special forces of the Imperium, and a visable incarnation of the Emperor. And practically legend.
So much so that on many worlds, the average citizen may not actually believe that Space Marines are real. They are a story to get little children to behave.
This results in that, when trouble does arise and the Space Marines do show up, its enough to cow many worlds into submission.
A planet rebels for reasons not related to Chaos.
Then figures out of legend and the depths of time show up. Suddenly the Angels of Death that brought the Emperor's divine wrath to the enemies of the Imperium are there, and their guns are leveled at you.
Confronted by this, many rebellions are quelled with nary a shot fired. Its proof of the Emperor's will and all powerful might. He is no longer a figure in a stained glass window, he's very real.
Harriticus wrote:1.) Marines are a lot more capable in fluff then they are on the table.
Everyone is supposedly more capable in fluff than they are on the table. It all depends on what hyped-up story you read.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It's explicitly stated in the rulebook that with the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago. They are still needed.
Oh yes, back during the Great Crusade. It would've likely been impossible for the Emperor to expand his domain with just the people of Earth alone. Nowadays there's the Imperial Guard, though.
Half the time we read about them in M41, however, Marines are the very source of trouble for the Imperium. I'm sorry, but outside the usual bolter porn stories I just don't see it the way you do. They're simply too few, like IG Storm Troopers or the SoB. It's a "win the battle, not the war" kind of deal.
Someone likened the Space Marines to a force multiplier, which I think describes their role best. They open up opportunities for the massed armies of the Imperial Guard to exploit. Other times, they hold a critical location long enough until the actual military can reinforce the lines. Yet other times, they could take out an enemy leader. All of this can be solved also by just throwing more and more men at the problem, which the Imperial Guard does often enough in every battle where Marines are not present. Or they bomb the issue into tiny bits with massed artillery strikes or orbital lances. On a planetary scale, the Marines can achieve precious little. Their firepower is highly mobile, but also highly concentrated. In a locally limited engagement this works great, but compared to most Guard regiments or a Navy fleet, a Marine Chapter's firepower is just ... rather small. Which is why they value mobility so much in the first place.
Harriticus wrote:Can be, but aren't. Only the best are chosen (except possibly in a Chapter on the verge of collapse).
Sure. The best from that small segment of Imperial population they are allowed to recruit from.
And even then it's not actually the best, but the best of those that are (a) of the correct gender, (b) the correct age, (c) genetically compatible and (d) don't have a brain that is already too advanced to "block out" hypnotherapy (usually coincides with b though).
That said, Marine aspirant selection also seems hugely biased depending on a Chapter's individual culture/tradition. Some take the strongest child from a tribe of feral barbarians, and others take the most aggressive kid from a street gang. They're aggressive, they're young and malleable, and they should have good reflexes - good material, right? Then there's other Chapters like the Salamanders who recruit people that are good blacksmiths. Like that's going to help in a fight.
This is 40k. The Imperium isn't about "efficiency" - this includes the Space Marines.
Melissia wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Astartes are more important then Sisters of Battle
Debatable. Sisters could arguably fulfill many of the roles that Astartes fulfill for a lower cost.
Have to admit, I'm with thenoobbomb on this one - though that is a result of my understanding of their numbers being even smaller than those of the Astartes. Possibly what you were referring to with "debatable" ...
One big advantage of the SoB is probably that they actually do what they're told, though, unlike certain Marine Chapters who just leave an ongoing campaign because they have "something better to do" (Dark Angels), do not show up in the first place (Space Wolves), or kill and eat their own allies in a geneseed-malfunction-induced berserker rage (Fleshtearers).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
Its already been said enough. Not sure I can add much here.
Basically space marines exist for their name, and for the fact that they are basically special ops. Without them, imperial morale is 0 and nothing big gets done. What takes guards months, or years can be achieved by 300 grey knights in several hours. The siege of a planet could take decades from guardsmen, call in the blood angels, 1 day later its theirs. Space marines do what the guard can't. And provide hope for the guard.
Lynata wrote: Have to admit, I'm with thenoobbomb on this one - though that is a result of my understanding of their numbers being even smaller than those of the Astartes. Possibly what you were referring to with "debatable" ...
One big advantage of the SoB is probably that they actually do what they're told, though, unlike certain Marine Chapters who just leave an ongoing campaign because they have "something better to do" (Dark Angels), do not show up in the first place (Space Wolves), or kill and eat their own allies in a geneseed-malfunction-induced berserker rage (Fleshtearers).
Meh, GW could easily retcon the numbers of Sisters. In fact they've done this several times already, and that's just studio material.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
Its already been said enough. Not sure I can add much here.
Marines can't destroy Chaos either.
To misquote Darkseid.... Chaos is.
If anything, the Inquisition does a far better job of "destroying" (weakening) Chaos than Marines could ever do.
For the same reason that in the real world you have the SAS and Navy Seals.
They also take a LOT more resourcing and funding than other forces, but again, can do things that simply CANNOT be achieved AT ALL by other forces.
For example, you may be able to infiltrate somewhere and kill someone with 10 special forces or 100, 1000 or 10,000 regular troops, but you can't do it without being noticed or as rapidly, and so you can't keep the terms of the conflict the same, so you need even MORE regular troops to do the job as the enemy reinforces their position.
Elite troops can do things quicker, and better, and that means there are things that only they can do at all.
Also, even transporting 1000 marines is easier than transporting 10,000-100,000 guardsmen.
Grey Templar wrote: They are the special forces of the Imperium, and a visible incarnation of the Emperor. And practically legend.
So much so that on many worlds, the average citizen may not actually believe that Space Marines are real. They are a story to get little children to behave.
This results in that, when trouble does arise and the Space Marines do show up, its enough to cow many worlds into submission.
A planet rebels for reasons not related to Chaos.
Then figures out of legend and the depths of time show up. Suddenly the Angels of Death that brought the Emperor's divine wrath to the enemies of the Imperium are there, and their guns are leveled at you.
Confronted by this, many rebellions are quelled with nary a shot fired. Its proof of the Emperor's will and all powerful might. He is no longer a figure in a stained glass window, he's very real.
All of this.... Space Marines are the Emperor's will made flesh and you don't want to take one of the most recognizable and most powerful Emperor's servants away.
Also want a proof they are useful - in 1'st Armageddon war 100 Grey Knight Terminators defeated Daemon Primarch Angron and his entire Berserker Army. Now how many Guardsmen you would need to stop that?
Every Chapter is an army for itself that can deal with everything but the biggest threats alone ( like full blown Ork WARGHHH or Tyranid Invasion ), and that means that you have more IG troops to deply somewhere they are needed. Astartes are needed for fear faction and their efficiency as they are designed to fight and defeat enemies that Guard can't.
Space Marines aren't the Emperor's Will made flesh.
That's the Inquisition. Space Marines are myths and legends to most Imperial citizens-- the Emperor's angels of death, as it were. They'll never get to see a Marine anyway-- but the Inquisition is something real that they hope they never have to deal with. The Inquisition is His will, manifest.
Because in a galaxy of Daemons, monstrous aliens, and other assorted horrible beasts, you need something more than just numbers on your side. You need an elite force that doesn't tire, doesn't give up, doesn't show fear, and is infinitely stronger and more resolute than normal human beings.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Kharn slaughtered an entire planet in a night, and shattered two legions on his own. yes, he is chaos aligned, but that alone should make you see the value of having a thousand similar (or at least close to) soldiers at your disposal.
Must have been a realy thinly populated planet or Kharn can now spit nuclear missiles
In "Nightbringer", the Ultramarines 4th company defeats a company of IG by coming up through a mining vent right next to the IG commander's position. That's why, because marines can accomplish things that several times their number in IG could not/would not be able to accomplish.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Kharn slaughtered an entire planet in a night, and shattered two legions on his own. yes, he is chaos aligned, but that alone should make you see the value of having a thousand similar (or at least close to) soldiers at your disposal.
Must have been a realy thinly populated planet or Kharn can now spit nuclear missiles
Well I doubt he did it alone. He probably had a few thousand Bezerker buddies with him.
Space Marines at fantastic at their role; shock troopers and force concentration.
In their role as shock troopers they have the mobility to get where they need to be thanks to an integrated fleet and aircraft. They can literally fire themselves at the enemy, via drop pods too fast to be stopped. Once they've arrived at a high priority target; an enemy command, some vital point of defense etc they can then take it apart with ease. As shocktroopers they function best up close. This is where all their advantages come into play.
Up close it matters that they're stronger, faster, have more endurance and better reflexes than common humans. Their weapons are terrifying, exploding or shredding the enemy. Their practically invulnerable to small arms fire and in the midst of the enemy heavy weapons powerful enough to kill them can't or won't be brought to bear. Once their objective is achieved they leave, off to the next mission. Sitting in the trenches or taking part in the line of battle is a waste of their abilities and roles their unsuited for.
Astartes are also for when there are threats the Imperial Guard simply can't deal with. They can operate on worlds that would kill a man, they can face daemons without going insane, they have the equipment to clear space hulks.
I'm not sure where you're getting that 70 year figure from. Implantation will take no longer than a decade at the very most and scout training likely dependent on the chapter. That marine can then live for centuries. His equipment will also last that long. There are rhino's older than the pyramids of Egypt. I'd say that's a good investment.
Also, Space Marine Vidya Gaem and Dawn of War 2 showed us a role not often seen by Space Marines: Asset Denial.
The Munitorium is horrendously bad at responding to emergencies. So having a smaller, elite force that can react instantly is excellent if you want to hold the line until the hammer comes down.
Look at the Liberation Fleet heading for Graia. It was at least four days out from the system, and even when the first reinforcements arrived, they were still just Space Marines. It takes a loooooong time to mobilize the Imperial Guard.
Darth Bob wrote: The Purge, a relatively small Chaos Warband, slaughtered 14,000,000,000 Imperial citizens on their own over the course of a few months.
Being devoted to Nurgle tends to make people around you die.
Darth Bob wrote: The Purge, a relatively small Chaos Warband, slaughtered 14,000,000,000 Imperial citizens on their own over the course of a few months.
These kind of numbers are one of the reasons you can't take the fluff too seriously. The numbers presented are mostly just pulled out of thin air or previous fluff based on what "sounds cool'. Not on any kind of consistent, rational and thought-out fiction or premise.
The real answers to the original question are:
A) Because elite, special-forces type units have real importance and uses now, and will always as long as there is war.
B) Knights in Space are cool/fun.
C) Starship Troopers and the sci-fi concept of power armor are cool and fun, in the opinions of many people/nerds (including the guys at GW).
Darth Bob wrote: The Purge, a relatively small Chaos Warband, slaughtered 14,000,000,000 Imperial citizens on their own over the course of a few months.
These kind of numbers are one of the reasons you can't take the fluff too seriously. The numbers presented are mostly just pulled out of thin air or previous fluff based on what "sounds cool'. Not on any kind of consistent, rational and thought-out fiction or premise.
The real answers to the original question are:
A) Because elite, special-forces type units have real importance and uses now, and will always as long as there is war.
B) Knights in Space are cool/fun.
C) Starship Troopers and the sci-fi concept of power armor are cool and fun, in the opinions of many people/nerds (including the guys at GW).
The Purge do use some pretty nasty bio weapons though.
Special strike forces, rapid response, spearhead assaults and the most important of all - propaganda. Marines are creations of the Emperor and every time they fight the enemies of mankind the reports can glorify the Golden Throne. I'm sure many of the battle reports in the codexes are good oldfashioned Soviet propaganda.
Darth Bob wrote: The Purge, a relatively small Chaos Warband, slaughtered 14,000,000,000 Imperial citizens on their own over the course of a few months.
These kind of numbers are one of the reasons you can't take the fluff too seriously. The numbers presented are mostly just pulled out of thin air or previous fluff based on what "sounds cool'. Not on any kind of consistent, rational and thought-out fiction or premise.
The real answers to the original question are:
A) Because elite, special-forces type units have real importance and uses now, and will always as long as there is war.
B) Knights in Space are cool/fun.
C) Starship Troopers and the sci-fi concept of power armor are cool and fun, in the opinions of many people/nerds (including the guys at GW).
The Purge do use some pretty nasty bio weapons though.
Frankly, a couple months sounds too slow.
Well, the Manus Irae (or Irae Manus, not sure), a strike force of 5 Chapters specifically formed for the task, annahilated an entire sector. Not sure, but I think the time frame for that was under the decade...
Melissia wrote: Space Marines aren't the Emperor's Will made flesh.
That's the Inquisition. Space Marines are myths and legends to most Imperial citizens-- the Emperor's angels of death, as it were. They'll never get to see a Marine anyway-- but the Inquisition is something real that they hope they never have to deal with. The Inquisition is His will, manifest.
Im gunna have to reverse you on this..... space marines are referred to as the will of the emporer manifested..... Inquisition is secret police that you hope doesnt dreg you away in you sleep. most people will never see either and they both can be seen as scary ghost stories by the general public.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Kharn slaughtered an entire planet in a night, and shattered two legions on his own. yes, he is chaos aligned, but that alone should make you see the value of having a thousand similar (or at least close to) soldiers at your disposal.
Must have been a realy thinly populated planet or Kharn can now spit nuclear missiles
Well I doubt he did it alone. He probably had a few thousand Bezerker buddies with him.
Basically, his actions on Skalanthrax were a chain reaction he sparked with his bloodust. The entire legion got driven into insanity. Basically a World Eater Waaagh!
As has been said, force concentration, rapid deployment, etc. I also agree that the Emprah created them to help conquer the galaxy when he just had the resources of Earth.
Here are a few situations-siege-the guard could fight it out, or you could pod some space marines in.
Rebellion-guard take months to respond, SM can send a quick strike force faster and without the bureaucracy . There is something to be said for an independent fighting force that can choose what actions to commit to.
Lastly, if you just threw space marine style gear such as power armor and bolters on normal humans, they would still only have human training and willpower. Something I remember from the DASM battles book-a guardsman says that he'd be a lot braver if he had space marine gear, then a DA lectures him about how giving them gear that can't be produced as fast would be a waste because they don't have the training/mental mindset to be the most efficient use
Its also good to keep in mind that Space Marines are designed to fight in any environment and under any circumstances. They are effectively immune to all biological/chemical weapons attacks; they are psychologically conditioned to operate without fear and without restraint that would limit an ordinary Guardsman; Their enhanced physiology allow them to maintain their momentum in carrying out extreme feats of strength and speed and pressing the enemy to the point of exhaustion and hopelessness, giving their assault a psychological edge.
Also, they have the most advanced weapon systems in the Imperium. Terminator armor that can shrug of heavy assaults, bolters, heavy-bolter and plasma weapons that wreak enormous havoc on the battlefield are all wield by only one marine, where an imperial guard unit would require an entire squad dedicated to heavy weaponry.
It is established military doctrine that the best fighting force consists of highly-skilled, highly-trained soldiers that possess unflinching loyalty to the collective ideals of the state. In my opinion this is exemplified best in the Space Marines. A guardsman may be a loyal and capable warrior but it has been seen on more than one occasion, when the going gets tough, a guardsman will flinch. Space marines don't flinch. Even so, a guardsman that shows extreme courage or martial skill is often drafted into the ranks of the Space Marines. Only the best and brightest become Astartes.
Its also been mentioned above that the Astartes are far more mobile than the Imperial Guard, not having to go through bureaucracy in order to be deployed. The Astartes are semi-autonomous which is a huge advantage when an ork WAAAAGH!!! suddenly seizes a few Imperial planets.
Kovnik Obama wrote: Logical answer : because Power Armour is useful, and would allow insertion of troops in environnement which is entirely inimical to human life.
Power armor is not, and has never been, unique to Space Marines, therefor this is not a reason for Space Marines to exist.
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Grey Templar wrote: Well I doubt he did it alone. He probably had a few thousand Bezerker buddies with him.
Even with a few thousand berzerkers it'd still have taken him centuries to kill off an entire planet's population.
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Somedude593 wrote: Im gunna have to reverse you on this..... space marines are referred to as the will of the emporer manifested.....
The Emperor's will. Unlike Space Marines, the Inquisition are empowered to work using His authority directly.
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Augustine_Maven wrote: Its also good to keep in mind that Space Marines are designed to fight in any environment and under any circumstances. They are effectively immune to all biological/chemical weapons attacks
No, they're not.
Resistant, yes. Effectively immune, no. Even within their power armor, they still are not immune.
Resistant, yes. Effectively immune, no. Even within their power armor, they still are not immune.
While yes there are some viruses that can penetrate the armor (the Life Eater comes to mind), the armor and the enhanced physiology of the Space Marines is design to protect the brother from nearly all biological/chemical warfare. I will give you that it doesn't guard against everything but it covers most known forms of contaminants.
Kovnik Obama wrote: Logical answer : because Power Armour is useful, and would allow insertion of troops in environnement which is entirely inimical to human life.
Power armor is not, and has never been, unique to Space Marines, therefor this is not a reason for Space Marines to exist.
Marine and human power armour is only equal in the table top, which we all know is limited when it comes to staying true to the fluff.
*edit*
And as Augustine says they aren't immune but they are effectively immune, marine armour is designed to function in a vacuum, the only things that can get in are things like the Life Eater virus that has corrosive elements mixed in.
jonolikespie wrote: Marine and human power armour is only equal in the table top
Also in the lore, too. So they're only equal in tabletop and the lore.
Sororitas power armor is described as having the same amount of protection as astartes power armor, for example, and sororitas power armor is manufactured in larger quantities than the highly customized suits that inquisitorial agents wear. I would go so far as to say that the power armor that inquisitors wear is far more advanced than what the Astartes have access to. Same with the power armor that the Mechanicus' armed forces wear (in fact, even techpriest power armor is superior in many ways to Astartes power armor, and techpriests are fairly low in the Mechanicus' hierarchy).
Power Armour works best for the Space marines because for them it's a second skin. With the Black Carapace the armour is neurally connected, it moves as they do, it monitors their health etc.
For those without the black carapace power armour is merely excellent armour. They don't have the mobility or ease of movement the Space marines posses, it weighs and slows them.
thenoobbomb wrote: Atleast Astartes are more important then Sisters of Battle
Debatable. Sisters could arguably fulfill many of the roles that Astartes fulfill for a lower cost.
As could Guardsmen.
But, like Guardsmen, the amount of Sisters it would take to perform as well as one Space Marine would project the experiment into no longer being cost-efficient. A single Marine can, and has, (ADB's Black rage short story, for one example) slaughtered entire squads of Sisters by themselves. They operate on two different levels of efficiency.
As Melissa alluded to in a second hand way, each part of the IoM is integral to its survival. The SM's fulfill a tactical role that others cannot, but cannot fill every role themselves. Which is why - apart from just the insane zealotry that comes with any of the military orders that makes them endemically entrenched into the Imperium; looking at you SoB's - humanity really needs all of them. Standard fair if you think about it.
8 foot tall superhuman killing loads of dudes in super cool armor? Who also happen to be ferociously loyal (for the most part, whoops) killing machines who can kill things with swords that are also CHAINSAWS?
“Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops” –Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists
That quote sums up why I think marines are sought after or necessary, applications of logical concentrated force, rapid deployment, superb tactical acumen and generally high-excellent levels of soldiering, make marines worth investing in.
TBH, the Inquisition has probably deviated far from what either the Emperor and Malcador originally formed. They wanted a counter-insurgency force that would root out potential traitors, not a witch hunt. Same thing with the Imperium - its technological/cultural stagnation, coupled with an intolerant, religious, superstitious, and tyrannical nature would have horrified/outraged the Emperor and the other leaders of the Great Crusade.
BlaxicanX wrote:As could Guardsmen. But, like Guardsmen, the amount of Sisters it would take to perform as well as one Space Marine would project the experiment into no longer being cost-efficient. A single Marine can, and has, (ADB's Black rage short story, for one example) slaughtered entire squads of Sisters by themselves. They operate on two different levels of efficiency.
Because Black Library novels are a premier source for an accurate depiction of balance between forces, amirite?
I'm sorry, all I see in GW's fluff is entire Marine Chapters having been purged by the Sororitas, yet I know of no Sororitas Order having been purged by the Space Marines.
In the end, bolters are bolters, plasma guns are plasma guns - at least as far as GW tells us. Power armour won't save you against either. So it most often comes down to a question of reconnaisance/intelligence and positioning/preparation. Space Marines are undoubtedly much more resilient than the average human, yet to suggest that they would not fall victim to the same kind of guns with which SM and CSM fight each other makes me think that engagements between the two forces must be a real drag, what with so many rounds of ammunition spent and nobody dying.
For what it's worth, even a single Guardsman could - in theory - slaughter an entire squad of Space Marines if he catches the unit off-guard with a heavy bolter. It seems the importance of circumstance often gets lost in silly "army X is better than army Y!" debates.
I'm sorry. I do not want to get tangled up in a "Marines vs Sisters rawr rawr" discussion, so I will once again stress that I am not challenging their superiority. In a direct one-on-one duel, they're the better fighters by virtue of having tougher, genetically enhanced bodies. Take that and be happy! What I *don't* want to see, however, and what truly prompts me to responses such as this is when this "better fighters" gets turned into "they're so badass they are sooo much better than everyone else, they can capture entire planets with just a single squad of soldiers, and can kill entire armies solo". And that's how your argument came along now.
No, personally, I will continue to operate on what I have read in the Codex, which is that both Marines and Sisters have developed a grudging respect for each others' battle prowess. And you don't get that by "operating on two different levels of efficiency".
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion." - GW website
It's ironical that, apparently, Marines and Sisters in the fluff seem to get along better with each other than their fans on the internets.
ENOZONE wrote:As Melissa alluded to in a second hand way, each part of the IoM is integral to its survival. The SM's fulfill a tactical role that others cannot, but cannot fill every role themselves. Which is why - apart from just the insane zealotry that comes with any of the military orders that makes them endemically entrenched into the Imperium; looking at you SoB's - humanity really needs all of them. Standard fair if you think about it.
Well ... I would say humanity needs everyone in the same way as it needs every adolescent kid capable of holding a lasgun. It is beset by enemies on all sides, so every single soldier counts. As far as the individual tactics and capabilities are concerned, however, I don't think there is any issue a Marine Chapter (or an Order of Sororitas) is committed to that cannot also be solved by throwing waves and waves of Guard at it. It'll just take longer and waste more lives (or fewer, if the SoB are followed by badly trained Frateris Militia ), but blood is the one resource the Imperium seems most willing to spend.
Melissia wrote:Meh, GW could easily retcon the numbers of Sisters. In fact they've done this several times already, and that's just studio material.
Hmm, actually I do not think the numbers have changed, ever. Since 3E there is a stronger focus on the Minor Orders (which I theorise to be more numerous in total headcount than the six Major Orders), but they already existed on the first organisational chart, and the number of Sisters within the Major Orders has remained unchanged ever since they were first mentioned in the 2E 'dex. Newer sources seem to be more vague about it, i.e. saying "thousands" instead of the 3.000-7.000 of the first Codex, but as that is still "thousands" I do not really count this as a retcon. The design notes for the Witch Hunter Codex even reiterated that the writers took great care to keep consistency with all the Ecclesiarchy/SoB fluff that was released before, even going back to the Rogue Trader era.
Well, there was that one time with the weird typo on the 5E rulebook where we first thought that the number of Major Orders was reduced. Actually had me thinking they'd merge the Orders with the most casualties (Guard-style) for a while until they released newer material that had the "correct" number again. But ... yeah, given that this was a one-time thing long reverted, personally I count it as an unintentional mistake rather than a retcon.
I can only hope that a future "proper" Codex - whenever we're going to see that one - keeps the relative consistency from the Sisters' previous fluff rather than unnecessarily re-imagining things. SoB fluff, at least the one from GW, seems to be one of the most stable things of the entire franchise, and I do not want to see that change. I've grown to like them because of all the things I have read so far, after all...
Lynata wrote: Because Black Library novels are a premier source for an accurate depiction of balance between forces, amirite?
I'm sorry, all I see in GW's fluff is entire Marine Chapters having been purged by the Sororitas, yet I know of no Sororitas Order having been purged by the Space Marines. In the end, bolters are bolters, plasma guns are plasma guns - at least as far as GW tells us. Power armour won't save you against either. So it most often comes down to a question of reconnaisance/intelligence and positioning/preparation. Space Marines are undoubtedly much more resilient than the average human, yet to suggest that they would not fall victim to the same kind of guns with which SM and CSM fight each other makes me think that engagements between the two forces must be a real drag, what with so many rounds of ammunition spent and nobody dying.
For what it's worth, even a single Guardsman could - in theory - slaughter an entire squad of Space Marines if he catches the unit off-guard with a heavy bolter. It seems the importance of circumstance often gets lost in silly "army X is better than army Y!" debates.
I'm sorry. I do not want to get tangled up in a "Marines vs Sisters rawr rawr" discussion, so I will once again stress that I am not challenging their superiority. In a direct one-on-one duel, they're the better fighters by virtue of having tougher, genetically enhanced bodies. Take that and be happy! What I *don't* want to see, however, and what truly prompts me to responses such as this is when this "better fighters" gets turned into "they're so badass they are sooo much better than everyone else, they can capture entire planets with just a single squad of soldiers, and can kill entire armies solo". And that's how your argument came along now. No, personally, I will continue to operate on what I have read in the Codex, which is that both Marines and Sisters have developed a grudging respect for each others' battle prowess. And you don't get that by "operating on two different levels of efficiency".
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion." - GW website
It's ironical that, apparently, Marines and Sisters in the fluff seem to get along better with each other than their fans on the internets.
So what you're saying is, you entirely agree with my assertion that Space Marines are vastly superior to Sisters on every level, to the point where trying to replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters would be pointless. You disagree with the assertion that Space Marines are invincible and can conquer entire planets with ease, two assertions that I never made.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.
Still be tons of traitor guard though, and Astartes can deal with Daemonic assaults far better then normal Guardsmen who tend to lose their minds.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.
BlaxicanX wrote:So what you're saying is, you entirely agree with my assertion that Space Marines are vastly superior to Sisters on every level, to the point where trying to replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters would be pointless. You disagree with the assertion that Space Marines are invincible and can conquer entire planets with ease, two assertions that I never made. Okay.
No. See, you're just crossing a fine line here.
Space Marines cannot be "vastly" superior to Sisters "on every level" when they both use comparable armour and weaponry, for example. The Space Marines have tougher bodies - that's it. No doubt that is a big advantage, one which I am willing to concede and have already mentioned. But you're acting like this is some sort of "I Win button" now. I could just as well point out that the Sisters have greater willpower and dedication and are overall much more reliable as a military force. But that doesn't make Sisters "vastly superior on every level" either. As I've been saying: circumstances. And there's a huge difference between having an advantage and being an exaggerated piece of fanwankery, if you excuse the language.
Of course it all comes down to the sources we have aligned our perception of the setting to. I realize that our different interpretations very likely stem from reading different books, so in a way we're both correct, and no doubt there are many novel interpretations where Space Marines are as you say. The majority even, I would say!
Anyways, the one thing I am agreeing on with you is that it is indeed pointless to try and replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters. Simply because it's apparently "easier" to make a Space Marine than to make a Battle Sister. One has artificial genetic enhancement pushing semi-randomly selected child soldiers past their natural limitations, the other has a grueling training regime where only those with a certain degree of predetermined natural toughness and willpower may qualify for final selection. In other words, anyone with compatible DNA can become a Marine, but by far not every girl is tough enough to make it into the Sororitas.
If we'd be talking efficiency, the Marines should simply step up their recruitment program a la Huron or Black Templars and transform even more feralworlders and street kids into new Astartes. Just pick anyone that has a chance of surviving the implantation process - I'm sure the Mechanicus could cope with the added strain on bolter and armour requests, given the potential effect of such a vast force of Space Marines. The only reason it isn't done seems to be politics, plain and simple. The High Lords are still afraid of a second HH. And so the Imperium will keep gimping itself. Welcome to 40k.
Space Marines exist because Warhammer 40,000 is a Fantasy setting, not a Science Fiction setting, it's just set in Space. Realistically, the entire military value of the massed might of the Adeptus Astartes would equal about 6 hours worth of recruiting for the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and it would have taken hundreds of billions of Space Marines to claim an empire as was done during the Great Crusade, not merely a couple million.
Above and beyond anything else, it's because they're the focal point of a Fantasy setting. That's it. If you look at the Space Marines from any realistic perspective, they're military value is negligible, their autonomy is hazardous, and the resources they require are exorbitant next to their military value.
The space marines play a role that no ordinary human can ever be; Shock Troops. Or more specifically, incredibly reliable and swift shock troops.
When space marines go to battle, they find the weakest point in the enemy's defenses and then abuse it. They focus on making a swift and brutal strike (in varying ways) to utterly crush the enemy.
Lynata wrote: No. See, you're just crossing a fine line here. Space Marines cannot be "vastly" superior to Sisters "on every level" when they both use comparable armour and weaponry, for example.
Okay, but semantics is not a valid argument. I could argue that a single Space Marine is not superior to a single Guardsmen because they both have ten fingers. That isn't a valid point, however, and no one would take it seriously.
Of course it all comes down to the sources we have aligned our perception of the setting to. I realize that our different interpretations very likely stem from reading different books, so in a way we're both correct, and no doubt there are many novel interpretations where Space Marines are as you say. The majority even, I would say!
Actually, my interpretation is based on the fluff as a whole. There is only a single instance of fluff in aaaaalllll of 40K-dom that would imply that Sororitas can stand toe-to-toe with Marines, and that is the entry regarding them being used to cull Marine chapters. Impressive, but not as much as you make it out to be, considering the ambiguity of the quote. On the other hand, there is a myriad of fluff showcasing sisters being worn as hats for Grey Knights, getting slaughtered by Nurgle marines and whole squads+tanks being butchered by individual marines, just to name some. You can argue that the overwhelming amount of fluff that shows Marines being Sisters+5 is tainted by Marine bias, and you'd be correct. However, you can't simply render fluff invalid because you don''t like the inspiration behind it. lol
I mean, you can. This is 40K, after all. But for the sake of having a conversation, if we just ignore fluff that doesn't fit into our views, than there is no point in having a conversation.
Lynata wrote: Anyways, the one thing I am agreeing on with you is that it is indeed pointless to try and replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters. Simply because it's apparently "easier" to make a Space Marine than to make a Battle Sister. One has artificial genetic enhancement pushing semi-randomly selected child soldiers past their natural limitations, the other has a grueling training regime where only those with a certain degree of predetermined natural toughness and willpower may qualify for final selection. In other words, anyone with compatible DNA can become a Marine, but by far not every girl is tough enough to make it into the Sororitas.
Sorry but no, that just shows you know nothing about how marines recruit.
Marines take the very best of a planet (and then more often than not deathworlds, feral planets or other placed where people struggle to survive) put them through grueling training that leave only a small percentage left to receive the geneseed.
Vaktathi wrote: hundreds of billions of Space Marines to claim an empire as was done during the Great Crusade, not merely a couple million.
There are now slightly over 1.000.000 Astartes serving the Imperium, not millions.
And Billions never existed, the largest number of Astartes that could have exited was only 5.000.000, And that is only of every other Legion number as Ultramarines ( 250.000 Astartes ), since that was not the case I can only assume that largest number of Space Marines in the galaxy at their peak was somewhere between 2 and 3 million.
Its an interesting discussion point re Sisters as to why there are so few of them
Is it a official/unoffical policy to limit the power of the Church and /or the Adepta Sororitas themselves or related to the selection process or a combination, or indeed other things.
OT There are so many things that don't bear to much close examination in 40K but are Cool. And thats the primary reason behind the Astartes/Titans/Giant Spaceships etc etc - cos they are cool and to be fair - thats all I really need.
'A company of soldiers where they are not expected, is worth a Division of soldiers where they are.'
Space marines may have ludicrous up front costs, but they concentrate killing power and surviveability in a single individual. and when used in numbers, a small force of marines will have at least 10x the killing power of 'normal' troops.
They also strike where they are not expected, meaning their combat power is massively increased due to the fact that those targets will have more limited defences, or simply be not expecting the attack.
So while they may be resource inefficient on an individual level, the fact that they can deploy anywhere really fast, not have to worry about bureacracy, and win wars by striking at high value targets rather than slugging it out on the ground (despite what some of the rather laughable fluff says to the contrary) means that they are likely much cheaper than sending in the Navy and imperial guard to smash the target into submission
In my opinion, the SM's still exist just to combat Chaos. I know I know, if the Space Marines were never created Chaos SM's wouldn't exist but that was back when they were useful. Ya know. 10 millennia ago. Guardsman just can't fight Chaos and Daemons. They are humans, all WILL lose their minds. Space Marines can't. The IG can take on ANY other force, except CSM and Daemons. They just aren't as useful in groups of 1,000 man chapters as they were in 10,000 man legions. Even then, they only deploy a handful of marines per combat action fluff wise...
Second of all, as it has been said, they are shock troops. A planet rebels and is all screw you imperium, then out of nowhere 7+ foot tall super soldiers in power armor fall from the sky and commence to place your spleen on the ground in front of you before you even knew you had a spleen. Rebellion ended.
I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever. Imagine you can send just anywhere you want fanatical man-sized tanks.
I think that is a good motive to have space marines.
Lynata wrote: No. See, you're just crossing a fine line here.
Space Marines cannot be "vastly" superior to Sisters "on every level" when they both use comparable armour and weaponry, for example.
Okay, but semantics is not a valid argument. I could argue that a single Space Marine is not superior to a single Guardsmen because they both have ten fingers. That isn't a valid point, however, and no one would take it seriously.
Of course it all comes down to the sources we have aligned our perception of the setting to. I realize that our different interpretations very likely stem from reading different books, so in a way we're both correct, and no doubt there are many novel interpretations where Space Marines are as you say. The majority even, I would say!
Actually, my interpretation is based on the fluff as a whole. There is only a single instance of fluff in aaaaalllll of 40K-dom that would imply that Sororitas can stand toe-to-toe with Marines, and that is the entry regarding them being used to cull Marine chapters. Impressive, but not as much as you make it out to be, considering the ambiguity of the quote. On the other hand, there is a myriad of fluff showcasing sisters being worn as hats for Grey Knights, getting slaughtered by Nurgle marines and whole squads+tanks being butchered by individual marines, just to name some. You can argue that the overwhelming amount of fluff that shows Marines being Sisters+5 is tainted by Marine bias, and you'd be correct. However, you can't simply render fluff invalid because you don''t like the inspiration behind it. lol
I mean, you can. This is 40K, after all. But for the sake of having a conversation, if we just ignore fluff that doesn't fit into our views, than there is no point in having a conversation.
You're right semantics is not a valid arguement. I don't mean to be rude but comparing two entities that share the same weapon and armor to two entities that share the same number of fingers is a gross violation of common sense.
In your own words:
that isn't a valid point, however, and no one would take it seriously
Seb wrote: I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever. Imagine you can send just anywhere you want fanatical man-sized tanks.
I think that is a good motive to have space marines.
Indeed.
Space Marines are and will be the ultimate soldiers that will not give up, even though the odds. They can survive meltagun shots and still fight, they can withstand daemonworlds for a while and, to finish it, the Emperor's reasoning behind them:
One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness
One last blade, forged in defiance of fate
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered
And my final gift to the species I failed
Plus, space marines will have far more experience then any guardsman or sister of battle.
And experience is worth a lot.
Blobpie wrote:The space marines play a role that no ordinary human can ever be; Shock Troops. Or more specifically, incredibly reliable and swift shock troops.
Yes, because no humans have ever performed that role...
When space marines go to battle, they find the weakest point in the enemy's defenses and then abuse it. They focus on making a swift and brutal strike (in varying ways) to utterly crush the enemy.
And again...normal humans are incapable of shock assault since...when?
Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
There are now slightly over 1.000.000 Astartes serving the Imperium, not millions.
Right...that's my point.
And Billions never existed, the largest number of Astartes that could have exited was only 5.000.000, And that is only of every other Legion number as Ultramarines ( 250.000 Astartes ), since that was not the case I can only assume that largest number of Space Marines in the galaxy at their peak was somewhere between 2 and 3 million.
Right...again, my point. Those tiny numbers of Space Marines just don't work on a galactic scale.
Seb wrote:I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever. Imagine you can send just anywhere you want fanatical man-sized tanks.
I think that is a good motive to have space marines.
And they're so rare to the point where they're literally myth in most of the Imperium and the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars never see a single Space Marine boot, needed or not. If there were a thousand times their current number, they might have some measurable value, as is, they're so limited in number that even the entirety of the astartes wouldn't have been able to fight the war on Vraks or any number of other conflicts without functionally destroying themselves.
Space Marines are relevant and important because GW says they are and because they're the central story protagonists, not because they'd actually be militarily relevant or offer anything a few hours worth of Munitorum recruiting doesn't. Again, it's why 40k is Space Fantasy and not Science Fiction.
BlaxicanX wrote:You can argue that the overwhelming amount of fluff that shows Marines being Sisters+5 is tainted by Marine bias, and you'd be correct. However, you can't simply render fluff invalid because you don''t like the inspiration behind it. lol I mean, you can. This is 40K, after all. But for the sake of having a conversation, if we just ignore fluff that doesn't fit into our views, than there is no point in having a conversation.
That's the problem, isn't it? Much of the "overall fluff" of 40k is inherently incombatible. It's not meant to exist side by side, and in the past I have quoted GW designers as well as novel authors all agreeing on this. Compare both Sisters and Marines how they and their equipment are depicted in GW's books to how they are described in, for example, FFG's Dark Heresy and Deathwatch RPGs. Worlds apart! So unsurprisingly, someone who likes the latter more will have a whole different view on the topic than I have with my continued focus on GW's own material. Same goes for the Black Library novels - actually, there you have an even greater gap as they are written by even more people with less collaboration.
So yes, we all render fluff invalid. You do, too, even if you may not have realised it already. But that is the source of our difference in opinion.
As for the semantics issue, see Shlazaor. I will only point out that if the Space Marines' guns can kill CSMs, then so can the Sisters' guns kill Space Marines. And the Marines guns' can kill Sisters. Weapon equality does much to level the playing field, hence me pointing out the circumstances. Genetic superiority doesn't help much if your head is gone from the detonation of a mass-reactive explosive shell or a shot of superheated plasma. Marines will always have an advantage, but I contest the idea that it is as big as you make it out to be. It may well be "Sisters+5" under some circumstances. Other times it may be Sisters+2. And yet other times it may be 1:1 or even skewed to the Sisters' favor, all depending on factors such as terrain, awareness, troop composition, individual experience, and more. Even a single Guardsman with a plasma gun can kill or neutralize a Space Marine with one shot, so hey.
And no, there is not "only a single instance in aaaaall of 40k fluff". Off the top of my head I can name the entry in the 1E Rogue Trader rulebook, a remark in the 3E Codex design notes printed in White Dwarf, a more detailed description of how hunting down rogue Marine Chapters is done in Index Astartes IV, Andy Hoare's Strikeforce article in Citadel Journal (the one with SoB drop pod rules), and one mentioning in another more recent White Dwarf 2-3 months back. I can look up and quote them if you need proof. And that's just Games Workshop's own material!
This may sound arrogant now, but I think you just don't know the Sisters fluff as good as I do.
jonolikespie wrote: Sorry but no, that just shows you know nothing about how marines recruit. Marines take the very best of a planet (and then more often than not deathworlds, feral planets or other placed where people struggle to survive) put them through grueling training that leave only a small percentage left to receive the geneseed.
I recommend you consult GW's Index Astartes books/articles for a detailed explanation on how Marine recruitment and creation works.
In my opinion, the idea that "the very best of a planet" can be determined at age 10-14 is a bit silly. Given how the human body is still developing, how will you know that one 10 year old kid may not make a better warrior than another later down the road, just because one seems stronger at this young age? And some Chapters recruit them even younger. The Salamanders take kids as young as 6 years old, and as I mentioned before they let one's aptitude at blacksmithing decide who may become a Marine.
No. The simple truth (at least as per GW's material) is that "very best of a planet" (which not even all Chapters do) is an optional tradition that seems completely irrelevant to the end result. Successfully being turned into a Space Marine makes everyone a superior human being, regardless of what he was before. A sickly nerd would, if given the Astartes treatment, make a stronger warrior than the most elite soldier we ever had in the real world, simply because hypno-indoctrination, muscle-therapy and implantation artificially turn him into a beast of a man. Given the massive gap between a normal human being and a Space Marine, do you really believe there would be a noticeable difference between the two if both this very same nerd and that soldier are being made Space marines?
The only things that -truly- matter are gender, age, brain susceptibility and genetic compatibility. Gender and age are not an issue anywhere, brain susceptibility is a combination of age and many Chapters' preference for feral worlders and street gangers. Genetic compatibility between host and implants is the single-most definite limitation on who can become a Space Marine, and it has squat to do with the recruit being the "very best of a planet" or not. It's how the Salamanders manage to get along at all, and they seem to do as good as the other Chapters with their choice of blacksmith-apprentice-recruits.
In fact, in many cases "the very best of a planet" probably cannot possibly be recruited simply because his DNA isn't compatible. Tough luck making a Marine out of that one.
thenoobbomb wrote:Plus, space marines will have far more experience then any guardsman or sister of battle.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. A fully-fledged Sister of Battle has received professional military education from infancy, whereas Space Marines most often seem to grow up being hunters dwelling in caves or juve gangers smuggling drugs past local Enforcers. To be sure, the hypno-indoctrination they receive as part of the conversion process would feed an understanding of modern combat directly into their brains, but does this count as experience? Maybe, though I would assume "the real thing" such as their Scout years and the many hours of training in and around the Fortress-Monastery each day are more important. Thanks to rejuvenation treatments, veteran Battle Sisters may also become as old as most Space Marines, provided they do not fall in battle. Of course, the average rank-and-file Sisters would probably have an experience of "only" 12 years of Schola indoctrination, 5 years as a Novice and then 1-20 years of field experience. Then again, would the average rank-and-file Tactical Marine really have that many decades more? They've all been young once, and an Order's average member age may be as fluctuating as that of a Chapter, all depending on how active it is in combat and thus how many losses would need to be replaced by fresh recruits. The more an Order or a Chapter goes to war, the higher the potential for casualties and thus the lower the average age. On the other hand, only real combat may grant real experience ...
Seb wrote:I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever.
If it's a "clean" Chapter that actually follows orders and does not suffer from some mentally-affecting geneseed corruption, yes.
The true value of a Space Marine to the Imperium probably depends on the individual Chapter. That's why I actually like the Ultramarines - on them you can rely.
You said millions, witch is more than one million so you were wrong.
Right...again, my point. Those tiny numbers of Space Marines just don't work on a galactic scale.
You said Billions witch is more than 999 million, you were wrong again. And not work on galactic scale? Did you even read Horus Heresy novels about Great Crusade and Imperial Truth? There was nothing in the galaxy that can oppose them or defeat them. The only time they had trouble was at Gyros-Thravian, witch was probably the biggest Ork WARGHHH the Imperium saw ( second was was 2'nd and 3'rd Armageddon war ). And even they were defeated after Emperor came with just 1.000 Custodes. One Legion was more than enough to exterminate entire species and entire Eldar maiden worlds and Craftworlds. Space Marines don't work on galactic scale? Sorry but Great Crusade success goes against that. And even today, in 41'st millennium, Astartes are making their impact on galactic scale as in the all except the most important battles 100 Marines are more than enough to tip the course of the battle or even war in Imperium's favor. They are still capable of stopping large incursions and defeating their opponents no matter their strength or magic they use. Astartes don't work on galactic scale in 41'st millennium? Continued survival of Mankind proves that.
Vaktathi wrote: Space Marines exist because Warhammer 40,000 is a Fantasy setting, not a Science Fiction setting, it's just set in Space. Realistically, the entire military value of the massed might of the Adeptus Astartes would equal about 6 hours worth of recruiting for the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and it would have taken hundreds of billions of Space Marines to claim an empire as was done during the Great Crusade, not merely a couple million.
Above and beyond anything else, it's because they're the focal point of a Fantasy setting. That's it. If you look at the Space Marines from any realistic perspective, they're military value is negligible, their autonomy is hazardous, and the resources they require are exorbitant next to their military value.
This.
Space Marines exist because its 'knights in shining armor in space'. The only thing that they do that cannot be done as effectively by a much larger IG force is rapid response. And even then, it only cannot be done by the IG because they are not prepared to do it - the US only has IG and its rapid response protocols are pretty good.
WH40K has plenty of battles describing sieges of fortifications that last days and cost hundreds of thousands of lives. It never consider air superiority or space superiority. Why? because it is not cool describing a bombardment. You have space superiority and the enemy entrenched itself in a impenetrable fortress? Nuke it from orbit. Throw a moon at it. Not try to force a breach. The only reason to capture a fortress instead instead of bombing it to ruin is if there is something so important inside that you cannot risk destroying it. And then, you wouldnt be using siege equipment either.
Think about what the US did in Tora-Bora in Afeghanistan. Range of mountains, full of excavated tunnels. Virtual fortification spanning miles upon miles. Bomb it until nothing can exit the tunnels, then wait for starvation to set in before you ever start to move infantary to clear the place. You don't even need to clear the place. They have a inpenetrable fortification that cannot be bombed off ( because its immune to bombs or something)? Conquer the rest of the planet and bomb anything that dares step out of the fortification.
Not to mention the numbers. 1000 soldier, no matter how great and powerful they are, are not enough to hold anything resembling the size of a planet.
Also, about the unkillability of marines - we have elephants here on earth. We have guns that can one shot said elephant. We tanks here on earth. We have guns that can one-shot said tanks. All of those are man portable, even though said anti-tank guns do not carry much ammo. While you can argue that a Space Marine is as resilient as a elephant, i doubt it is as resilient as a tank. It is as resilient as a tank while inside his power armor? Guess what? We got anti-tank guns.
In short - if we start looking at any sort of realistic way, space marines fall apart. They exist because they are cool.
You said millions, witch is more than one million so you were wrong.
During the Great Crusade we had 18 legions with an average of 100,000 marines, that's almost 2 million. You're arguing over semantics and missing my point that either way, that number of Space Marines, powerful as they are, are not a galaxy conquering force.
Rogal Dorn equates a Space Marine with 10 other human soldiers, even assuming that's understated by a factor of 10 (meaning each SM is worth 1000 human soldiers), and lets say that's not factoring in any force multipliers and that none apply to the human soldiers so lets multiply it by 100 again to say each space marine is worth 10,000 human troops (a ludicrous number even by the most ardent SM fanboy's estimation) the entirety of the 1 million strong astartes is worth 10,000,000,000 (ten billion) guardsmen, or about 0.5% (1/200th) of the IG's military strength (not counting the Imperial Navy) assuming "trillions" as given by the IG codex and core rulebook for IG numbers means the minimum value of 2 trillion for plural "2". So vastly overestimating the value of the astartes and using the minimum possible size given for the Imperial Guard, they Space Marines provide one half of one percent of the military value of the Imperial Guard, including their force multipliers.
Now if we put that in a more realistic sense, it gets even worse. Assuming the Imperium (as *highly* militarized society) is only as militarized as modern day earth, and assuming the *average* planetary population is roughly 6 billion (about earth's a few years ago), and say 1 million worlds, we get 20,000,000,000,000 (20 trillion) IG troops. If we tone down our SM estimates to be 1 SM is worth 1000 IG troops (still a bit exaggerated, but we'll be generous and say it includes their Force Multiplier abilities), the entirety of the Astartes has a military value equal to about 1/20,000 of the Imperial Guard (0.005%), not including the IN/PDF/Arbites/etc.
Now you begin to see where this all starts to look a bit silly?
You said Billions witch is more than 999 million, you were wrong again.
Where are you going with this? You're missing my point here, which is that on the scale we're talking about you'd need tens or hundreds of thousands more marines than they actually had to achieve such a conquest.
And not work on galactic scale? Did you even read Horus Heresy novels about Great Crusade and Imperial Truth? There was nothing in the galaxy that can oppose them or defeat them.
Which basically boils down to "because GW said so". When you read the stories, the rate at which marines die, see the casualty rates given for various battles, and multiply that over the scale of a galaxy, the Astartes only make sense when you hand-wave away reality and simply have them win through plot armor and conquering hundreds of trillions of individuals with marines numbering in the small millions/hundreds of thousands mostly just "because".
Space Marines don't work on galactic scale? Sorry but Great Crusade success goes against that.
Aaaand your still missing my point, which is they work because GW says they do, contrary to any examination/analysis of their own fluff and any common sense. To cover that much territory, fight that many battles, much less with the casualty rates they are described as sustaining, the Astartes would need to number far more than they did.
And even today, in 41'st millennium, Astartes are making their impact on galactic scale as in the all except the most important battles 100 Marines are more than enough to tip the course of the battle or even war in Imperium's favor.
Which again, is largely simply through plot armor because it's a Fantasy universe, not because it's realistic in any way.
Astartes don't work on galactic scale in 41'st millennium? Continued survival of Mankind proves that.
By which you mean the Imperial Guard, the force that wins 99% of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single space marine boot?
Wyrmnax wrote:
In short - if we start looking at any sort of realistic way, space marines fall apart. They exist because they are cool.
Because GW said so? I am sorry but aren't they the ones who owns Warhammer 40.000? If they say that Space Marines are the only thing standing between Mankind and annihilation ( Ultramarines the Movie ) than that is the truth and nothing else matters, not logic nor reason.
You can argue entire day that the Guard is better, in my opinion it is because Guardsmen use a to ton ordinance and are perfect to wage long wars. But there is some battles Guard simply cannot win ( 13'th Black Crusade, Zeist Campaign, Armageddon War, Nimbosa Crusade, Battle for Macragge, Tarsis Ultra etc... ) and this is where Astartes goes in - to win battles ordinary Humans cannot. Givign into account various examples from fluff ( primitive Orks destroy 3 Regiments of Guard with ease, a minor Hive Fleet destroy 3 million Guardsmen like they were nothing, Necrons piratically destroying the Imperium's most elite Guard Regiments like they are cockroaches, a minor Tau fighting Cadre defeat four time larger Imperial Guard force etc....) we can see that in many occasions the Guard simply cannot win - and that's where the Astartes come in.
And please do not use plot armor i nthis kind of discussion, we already know that Imperium itself has a plot armor that is beyond comprehension so using it with only Astartes is kind of stupid when the entire empire they protect already has gigantic one..
All in all, Astartes are made to win battles that Humans cannot win and that s why they are important to the Imperium. They are also important because they are Emperor's will made manifest, where Space Marines go to war it means that place is important to the Emperor himself. This gives great morale boast to the troops and their actions actually cut the Guard losses by half or even more sometimes. They exist for the simple reson why SAS, Navy Seals, Spetnaz and many other exist in today's army's - not to win wars but to win battles that will determinate the outcome of the war. And yet nobody is asking: "Why do we need Navy Seals or Delta Force?". I have nothing more to say on this matter, the rest is up to the people to decide...
I think the arguement that the IG is the primary force holding the IoM together is clear. But I still don't feel as if the primary assertion for why space marines are good was met. They do things normal people cannot and they get it done quickly at the drop of a hat. They aren't meant to protect the galaxy. They are meant to win specific decisive battles that could threaten the galaxy.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Because GW said so?
I am sorry but aren't they the ones who owns Warhammer 40.000? If they say that Space Marines are the only thing standing between Mankind and annihilation ( Ultramarines the Movie ) than that is the truth and nothing else matters, not logic nor reason.
Congrats you got my point!
They work because it's a fantasy universe and reality is handwaved away, hence why it's a Fantasy universe and not really Science Fiction or based on any realistic standing. That's my point.
You can argue entire day that the Guard is better, in my opinion it is because Guardsmen use a to ton ordinance and are perfect to wage long wars. But there is some battles Guard simply cannot win ( 13'th Black Crusade, Zeist Campaign, Armageddon War, Nimbosa Crusade, Battle for Macragge, Tarsis Ultra etc... )
Most of these, again, are either literally hand-waved to be Marine-specific, or are horribly off kilter, like Armageddon where it's described as one of the largest raging warzones yet the Siege of Vraks was a complete side-show of no note and had more troops fighting there.
and this is where Astartes goes in - to win battles ordinary Humans cannot.
And why can't they win it? Largely just because otherwise there's no platform for the Space Marines to exist on. Given the same resources allocated to the IG/IN, they'd have no problems winning such conflicts. Realistically, the entirety of the Traitor Legions could be destroyed in battle in weeks in battle, they're a threat literally "just because".
Givign into account various examples from fluff ( primitive Orks destroy 3 Regiments of Guard with ease
3 guard regiments is maybe 15000 men? About 2.8 seconds of IG recruitment intake, practically nothing.
a minor Hive Fleet destroy 3 million Guardsmen like they were nothing,
Even a minor hive fleet is *huge*, and 3 million guardsmen *are* nothing, given that there are *billions* of regiments each composed of thousands of guardsmen.
Necrons piratically destroying the Imperium's most elite Guard Regiments like they are cockroaches
what exactly are we referring to here?
a minor Tau fighting Cadre defeat four time larger Imperial Guard force etc....)
And yet the Tau empire is driven to exhaustion in the Damocles Gulf crusade by 19 regiments of Imperial Guard...out of billions.
we can see that in many occasions the Guard simply cannot win - and that's where the Astartes come in.
only in the relative short term/small scale, and often literally just because it's written to sound impressive as opposed to a realistic perspective because GW can't keep numbers straight.
All in all, Astartes are made to win battles that Humans cannot win and that s why they are important to the Imperium.
And yet...most of the wars never see a Space Marine and are won all the same...
That's why there's Stormtroopers and Kasrkin and Grenadiers and Sisters of Battle, etc.
They are also important because they are Emperor's will made manifest, where Space Marines go to war it means that place is important to the Emperor himself.
wonderfully symbolic but that's about it.
This gives great morale boast to the troops and their actions actually cut the Guard losses by half or even more sometimes.
Based on what?
They exist for the simple reson why SAS, Navy Seals, Spetnaz and many other exist in today's army's - not to win wars but to win battles that will determinate the outcome of the war.
Actually, more usually, to conduct an operation where fighting is either avoided or minimized altogether, which generally isn't what Space Marines do.
And yet nobody is asking: "Why do we need Navy Seals or Delta Force?".
You're right, but Space Marines are, more often than not, used as heavy infantry in pitched battles and storming fortified positions, being big guardsmen and not as commando's. Even as commando's, they're too few on a galaxy wide scale to be effective for the resources poured into them.
One Space Marine may be equal to (lets just say) 10 IG. But what most dont see is the logistics behind that. What does a space marine need to conduct battle? Ammunition, and possibly food and water eventually. What does 10 guardsmen need? Las rounds, Solid shot, promethium, clothing, food, water, fuel... the list goes on. A Marine is more independent.
Right, but the problem that we are encountering is that it takes decades to make that marine as opposed to a few months of training for each guardsmen, and 1000x the resources to equip that Space Marine, and then there's 10 million guardsmen for each Space Marine
Shlazaor wrote: You're right semantics is not a valid arguement. I don't mean to be rude but comparing two entities that share the same weapon and armor to two entities that share the same number of fingers is a gross violation of common sense.
Not really, because they share the same logic, and it's that logic that I'm attacking. The notion that A isn't utterly superior to B because they share one specific quality is not a sensible argument. It's semantics.
Lynata wrote: That's the problem, isn't it? Much of the "overall fluff" of 40k is inherently incombatible. It's not meant to exist side by side, and in the past I have quoted GW designers as well as novel authors all agreeing on this. Compare both Sisters and Marines how they and their equipment are depicted in GW's books to how they are described in, for example, FFG's Dark Heresy and Deathwatch RPGs. Worlds apart! So unsurprisingly, someone who likes the latter more will have a whole different view on the topic than I have with my continued focus on GW's own material. Same goes for the Black Library novels - actually, there you have an even greater gap as they are written by even more people with less collaboration.
Except in this case, the fluff is not incompatible. The majority of fluff that compares Space Marine prowess to Sisters prowess shows Marines to be vastly superior to Sisters, with a few exceptions. The fluff is pretty consistent on this matter. That you want to pretend half of it doesn't exist because you don't like it is another matter entirely.
but I contest the idea that it is as big as you make it out to be.
I would say that having superior speed, agility, reflexes, strength, aiming ability, and durability would vastly skew any confrontation between a sister and a marine into the Marine's favor, especially considering that bolter rounds barely affect power armor anyway. If you disagree, please provide the fluff that backs up your assertion.
I can look up and quote them if you need proof. And that's just Games Workshop's own material!
Please do. I would love to see fluff that doesn't establish Sisters of being the fodder faction of the Imperium.
Bolter fire very much does affect power armor, it's entirely capable of puncturing it, not all the time but yes, often enough. The FWHH book shows marine armor with bolter impacts going clean through their armor. There's plenty of fluff where bolter fire kills marines through power armor.
Vaktathi wrote: Bolter fire very much does affect power armor, it's entirely capable of puncturing it, not all the time but yes, often enough. The FWHH book shows marine armor with bolter impacts going clean through their armor. There's plenty of fluff where bolter fire kills marines through power armor.
And the 4e Chaos Marines codex shows us a Marine being shot at point blank in the helmet/face, and his head just sort of bobs a little.
Vaktathi wrote: Bolter fire very much does affect power armor, it's entirely capable of puncturing it, not all the time but yes, often enough. The FWHH book shows marine armor with bolter impacts going clean through their armor. There's plenty of fluff where bolter fire kills marines through power armor.
And the 4e Chaos Marines codex shows us a Marine being shot at point blank in the helmet/face, and his head just sort of bobs a little.
where is that in there? I don't have my book so I'm not sure of which picture, though the SM codex cover has a basic bolter blowing clean through a Chaos marine, through the front chest plate, the back plate and the armored backpack.
Though, much like everything in 40k, it may just be one of those things that varies wildly depending on author/artist.
Shlazaor wrote:They do things normal people cannot and they get it done quickly at the drop of a hat. They aren't meant to protect the galaxy. They are meant to win specific decisive battles that could threaten the galaxy.
I think that is a good point - reaction time/mobility is one of the Marines' biggest advantages. Anything you can do with a Marine Chapter can be done with the Guard ... but it would take much, much longer. Both to get the forces in place as well as to actually fight the campaign. For a single battle, that may not seem like much, but over the course of Imperial history, I would agree that this may have made a notable difference. Perhaps not everywhere and everytime, but some campaigns could have been turned around because one planet could have been won quicker than the enemy was able to mobilise all his forces. On another world, the Imperials were able to hold the line thanks to Astartes backup, causing an entire enemy force to get a bloody nose in a futile attempt to storm the walls, thus preventing a costly campaign to recapture that place that may have cost dozens of regiments that are needed elsewhere.
On a small scale, that's not much. But if you add it up ... over the millennia of conquered or defended territory, planets become systems, systems become sub-sectors, sub-sectors become sectors, both due to the Marines themselves as well as the many forces the Imperium was thus able to deploy on another front?
Vaktathi wrote:All in all, Astartes are made to win battles that Humans cannot win and that s why they are important to the Imperium.
And yet...most of the wars never see a Space Marine and are won all the same...
That's why there's Stormtroopers and Kasrkin and Grenadiers and Sisters of Battle, etc.
Well, Storm Troopers and SoB, possibly even Kasrkin are more rare than Space Marines, and consequently we rarely see them in action. Of course, our vision may be distorted by GW's focus on Marine Action, but if we look at the two most important battles of the 41st millennium - Armageddon and the Black Crusade - we see an interesting ratio in force dispositions.
Spoiler:
I guess it really is the grunt with his trusty lasgun that is the most important asset of the Imperium, simply due to quantity. As Stalin (supposedly) said, quantity is a quality of its own.
BlaxicanX wrote:Except in this case, the fluff is not incompatible. The majority of fluff that compares Space Marine prowess to Sisters prowess shows Marines to be vastly superior to Sisters, with a few exceptions. The fluff is pretty consistent on this matter. That you want to pretend half of it doesn't exist because you don't like it is another matter entirely.
The fluff is not consistent when there is clearly a difference in how this comparison is depicted based on source origin. I never said I want to pretend it "does not exist" (in fact I clearly pointed out that one vision is as good as another), I am pointing out that assuming the fluff is in any way uniform and even meant to coexist when there are so many obvious contradictions is a fallacy.
BlaxicanX wrote:I would say that having superior speed, agility, reflexes, strength, aiming ability, and durability would vastly skew any confrontation between a sister and a marine into the Marine's favor, especially considering that bolter rounds barely affect power armor anyway. If you disagree, please provide the fluff that backs up your assertion.
In a one-on-one, with both combatants having an equal amount of battlefield experience and clear line of sight towards each other, I'd agree. But as I said, circumstances. Even if we are to assume that your squad of Space Marines manage to shoot first by virtue of their superior reflexes, I would say it's quite safe to assume that the enemy squad of SoB would not drop dead instantly (at least not all of them), with some managing to return fire more quickly than others.
I'm really not sure from where you have the impression that bolters have little effect on power armour; even the game itself certainly shows us that Space Marines drop easily to bolter fire. But I actually do have a fluff quote regarding Marine armor protectivity from the AoD Codex - let me get back to you with this later.
Just one more thing:
If a Space Marines' speed, agility, reflexes, strength, aim and durability were oh-so-superior as you claim, a certain Catachan would not have managed to strangle a CSMLord to death with a friggin' root. Likewise, if we look at Canoness Praxedes, we have an example of a Battle Sister having engaged a Tyranid Hive Tyrant in single combat, bashing its head in with her power maul.
In GW material, we have examples of epic feats and stupid deaths for both Marines and Sisters. The average for both is somewhere in-between, so I would advise not just focusing on heroic legends but endeavouring to find the sweet spot that is in line with any and all impressions from a single source origin, ideally with a focus on unbiased technical descriptions (yes, they do exist even in GW books - they're rare but they exist!) rather than tales of certain individual feats that may well be exceptions from the rule.
BlaxicanX wrote:Please do. I would love to see fluff that doesn't establish Sisters of being the fodder faction of the Imperium.
Alrighty, give me a few hours until I get back home and regain access to all my books.
Stuff wasn't exactly easy to find - I suppose the concept of Sisters purging Marines is not exactly a popular theme for the mostly Astartes-driven Black Library, so you really only have GW's own publications to go by, and the fluff in them is all over the place.
Void__Dragon wrote: And the 4e Chaos Marines codex shows us a Marine being shot at point blank in the helmet/face, and his head just sort of bobs a little.
where is that in there? I don't have my book so I'm not sure of which picture, though the SM codex cover has a basic bolter blowing clean through a Chaos marine, through the front chest plate, the back plate and the armored backpack.
Though, much like everything in 40k, it may just be one of those things that varies wildly depending on author/artist.
It wasn't a picture, but a fluff-description of a battle.
When I am feeling less lazy, I'll look for it again.
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Lynata wrote: If a Space Marines' speed, agility, reflexes, strength, aim and durability were oh-so-superior as you claim, a certain Catachan would not have managed to strangle a CSMLord to death with a friggin' root.
Okay, seriously, stop this, because frankly every time you mention this you're being dishonest.
Straken is among the most bionically enhanced individuals in the Imperium, so extensively enhanced that his body is as durable as power armour, and his fist is a friggin' chainfist.
He is a very poor example to use to prove your point.
He could butcher nearly every Sister of Battle as well, frankly. I could see Straken wading through a squad of them and ripping them to pieces.
Likewise, if we look at Canoness Praxedes, we have an example of a Battle Sister having engaged a Tyranid Hive Tyrant in single combat, bashing its head in with her power maul.
Then she, you know, died.
Marines however have more and more consistent portrayals of epic heroic deeds of awesomeness.
Marneus Calgar alone has multiple incredibly impressive exploits to his name, more than I can recall from the Sisters of Battle that weren't performed by a Living Saint.
The Imperium needs space marines for roughly the same reason it needs the inquisition. They need that overwelming presence, that failsafe. When a group of spacemarines show up its like something out of mythology, they inspire fear in places were its needed and awe from everyone they pass. In the horus heresy Iron hands short story gaurdsmen go rediculously beyond the human limit for survival simply not to fail the space marines and achieve what nobody thinks can be done. Or in the battle of the fang they turn even children into warriors (seriously a bunch of Fenrisian kids throw grenades a terminators lol). Itd be like if 5 guys walked up and said "hey were gonna kick the spit out of you" then the Rock walks up and says "no worries I got your back".
Void__Dragon wrote:Straken is among the most bionically enhanced individuals in the Imperium, so extensively enhanced that his body is as durable as power armour, and his fist is a friggin' chainfist.
He is a very poor example to use to prove your point.
Actually, I think you missed my point by a long shot. I specifically pointed out that the most extreme examples can be found anywhere - this includes a CSM Lord being strangled (Straken's augmented strength surely would not have affected his magnificently superior reflexes and agility?) just as much as it includes Straken as an extremely badass IG soldier outside the norm. I thought I made that clear with the last sentence of that segment.
Void__Dragon wrote:Then she, you know, died.
That is (a) besides the point (his death doesn't make Captain Tycho's last fight any less awesome either) and (b) actually is a fairly recent addition to the fluff. For whatever reason Ward decided to add it in the new WD Minidex, because apparently he thought this was better than the previous version where Praxedes remains on the planet and misses the evacuation, sparking a legend amongst the faithful that she's still kicking ass even as the world is completely engulfed by 'nids.
Void__Dragon wrote:Marines however have more and more consistent portrayals of epic heroic deeds of awesomeness.
I do not find that particularly surprising, considering that 2/3 of all sentences written in all fluff focus on making Astartes awesome. This does not change the portrayal outside those individual deeds, however. And personally I find the descriptions of standards far more interesting than hundreds of distorted myths and stories.
Grey Templar wrote: Yup, athough it needs to be at close range, a weak spot, or a weakened portion of armor.
Actually, midrange is probably the most dangerous for a bolter. These things use self propelled shots, remember. They are fired and then a split second after passing the barrel, the rocket on the end of the bolt activates. At close range, a shot has less time to reach full speed, and thus, full impact strength. I think it was in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books, where engaging a chaos marine at close range saves a guy's life, because the bolt got lodged in his helmet rather than exploding.
Arcsquad12 wrote:the bolt got lodged in his helmet rather than exploding.
You mean rather than penetrating? I would assume it has to explode either way, by virtue of having a mass-reactive millisecond fuse.
It'd just be a lot better if it explodes outside the helmet rather than inside.
[edit] Actually, scratch that, I was wrong about this! I just checked the Wargear book and apparently the projectile detonates only if it actually pierces the armour, with the fuse activating based on an increase of surrounding mass.
That said, I suppose it could still happen even if the bolt "only" gets stuck, as long as it does punch into something rather than ricocheting off?
[edit 2] Also, the quotes requested by BlaxicanX:
"Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to war zones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance." - 1E Rogue Trader Rulebook (1987), reprinted in White Dwarf #292 (2004)
"In such cases a Conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a course of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas. Few Space Marine Chapters would be asked to move against another except in the direst of circumstances. Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite strike force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by a battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus." - Citadel Journal #49 (2002)
"Thus the Sisters find themselves in service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships." - 3E Codex: Witch Hunters (2003)
"This gave us a basis for the character of the army - vengeful warrior-adepts tasked with enforcing the purity of other Imperial organisations. The Rogue Trader art even shows a Battle Sister exacting that vengeance upon a Space Marine, so this seemed particularly appropriate. In fact, the Space Marine is from the Rainbow Warriors Chapter, and as we haven't heard from them for some time I guess the Sisters' mission was successful!" - White Dwarf #292 (2004), from Andy Hoare's Designer's Notes
"Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause, then the elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against a wayward Chapter." - Index Astartes IV: Rogue Sons (2004)
"Heretics take many forms. Most are lost humans, whose weak minds have been corrupted by the manifold temptations of a dark and sinister galaxy. None are immune: planetary governors, Imperial Guard commanders and even whole Space Marine Chapters have been declared heretic and been exterminated as such by the Sisters of Battle." - White Dwarf #382 (October 2011)
I suppose that should do it. Mind you, this is just the stuff that I managed to pick up over the years of my never-ending quest for more obscure SoB fluff in GW's material. I still find new bits every now and then, so I don't claim completeness on this topic.
Oh, but I also promised you something about power armour:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium." - Codex: Angels of Death
Mind you, "most small arms" sounds more like lasguns than bolters, but I would expect both of them to fall into this category. Naturally, with bolters closer to the 50% protection range, and lasguns more towards the 85% scale. Should be pretty close to the TT rules, actually? Not that this is very surprising, considering that the fluff was crafted around the rules and does not exist like some sort of separate product as if it'd depict an entirely different world with no connection to the tabletop whatsoever.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I know a lot of 40K background, and as I studied different sources I have noted one thing.
Using Space Marines is foolish.
Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle. He needs high-quality training, extremely expensive armor and weapons, and simply consumes a ton of resources.
And yet, look at the losses that the marines take. I am not only talking about the tabletop game itself (where casualties are ludicrous) but I am also talking about the books, for example. My conclusion is that they are so extremely resource-inefficient so that they should have stopped using them long ago. Ten guardsmen is seemingly, according to a quote (Imperial Fists Primarch, I believe, but I am no certain) equivalent to one Space Marine. However, if we look at the cost in time and resources, we are looking at Space Marines consuming a hundred, if not a thousand times the resources a guardsman do, if you count everything in. While I am sure Space Marines have their uses; sudden overwhelming spear-point assaults, for example- surely it is not worth such a cost?
How is their use justified?
70 years? During the Great Crusade, the Dark Angels were able have a battle-ready Astartes only two years post gene-seed implantation. Corax did it even faster with the Emperor's cheat sheet.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.
You know, as far as the "efficiency" argument goes...
The list of things the Imperium has limited quantities of is long. Space ships, navigators, astropathic communication, tanks, rations, armor, lasguns.
'Warm human bodies' is probably the last thing on the list. They can spare a few million to have access to the use of gene-engineered supersoldiers when they really need them.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.
Another issue I think we may have missed out on that proves the usefuleness of space marines is technology. The IoM has a limited amount of advanced technology so they want to put it into the hands of some elite badasses who will use it better and be less likely to destroy it in comparison to a IG.
Shlazaor wrote: Another issue I think we may have missed out on that proves the usefuleness of space marines is technology. The IoM has a limited amount of advanced technology so they want to put it into the hands of some elite badasses who will use it better and be less likely to destroy it in comparison to a IG.
IIRC that's never really been something mentioned, but the SM's armories make everything themselves so it's not like they're sharing the same production capacity or supply lines as the IG/IN.
Somedude593 wrote: Im gunna have to reverse you on this..... space marines are referred to as the will of the emporer manifested.....
Not by anyone except he Space Marines.
Quite frankly... People argree.. if a 7 foot tall 2 ton walking tank tells you he is the wrath of god incarnate... then guess what... he is and is anybody really going to correct him on it? Space marines are the symbol of the imperialism might and the minds of imperial citizens are so brainwashed that i wouldnt doubt many of them believe this and more wholeheartedly
The Emperor's will. Unlike Space Marines, the Inquisition are empowered to work using His authority directly.
the inquisitors true power does nor come from any tie to the emperor... i have not seen any fluff to tie them to him... their real threat is that they are a FETHING INQUISITOR and will drag you to the torture dungeons if you do something they dont like..... That inquisitorial I means that they have a free pass to do anything they want and therefore people are afraid of them simply because they can drag you away midday without anyone stopping them . Also thanks for taking only two words of what i said so that you could insert your opinion without refuting me
Somedude593 wrote: Quite frankly... People argree.. if a 7 foot tall 2 ton walking tank tells you he is the wrath of god incarnate...
... then one might shoot him in the face with a boltgun for being e heretic. He would die instantly. There is only one god-- the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind.v Anyone who claims that they are also a god, and therefor the Emperor's equal, is a heretic and thus is consigned to death.
Space Marines do not call themselves gods of war or battle. They may call themselves the Emperor's angels of death, or the Emperor's descendants, and other such epithets-- but in the end, Space Marines are nothing more than His servants regardless. Either servants, or traitors.
And after the Horus Heresy, they are no longer even His closest servants, either.
Melissia wrote: There is only one god-- the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind.
I dare you to proclaim that during the Great Crusade.
And after the Horus Heresy, they are no longer even His closest servants, either.
Tell that to the Grey Knights - I'd bet a million dollars that even Inquisitors "the Emperor's Will Incarnate" who sneak into the Citadel of Titan without permission would get shot on sight. And even if they did get permission, I dare them to try and enter the Chamber of Purity at the base of Mt. Anarch.
Melissia wrote: There is only one god-- the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind.
I dare you to proclaim that during the Great Crusade.
And after the Horus Heresy, they are no longer even His closest servants, either.
Tell that to the Grey Knights - I'd bet a million dollars that even Inquisitors "the Emperor's Will Incarnate" who sneak into the Citadel of Titan without permission would get shot on sight. And even if they did get permission, I dare them to try and enter the Chamber of Purity at the base of Mt. Anarch.
Where they will be consumed body and soul by Matt Ward on warp dust.
Tell that to the Grey Knights - I'd bet a million dollars that even Inquisitors "the Emperor's Will Incarnate" who sneak into the Citadel of Titan without permission would get shot on sight. And even if they did get permission, I dare them to try and enter the Chamber of Purity at the base of Mt. Anarch.
Where they will be consumed body and soul by Matt Ward on warp dust.
Nah, they just get shot or worse by the Purifiers.
Tadashi wrote: I dare you to proclaim that during the Great Crusade.
The Horus Heresy is boring anyway-- it's already decided, already written to death (it's what, the third re-write now?), and it's long since been overdone to the point of being yawn-inducing. The real fun of 40k comes after the Horus heresy, not during it. So I couldn't care less.
Tadashi wrote: Tell that to the Grey Knights - I'd bet a million dollars that even Inquisitors "the Emperor's Will Incarnate" who sneak into the Citadel of Titan without permission would get shot on sight. And even if they did get permission, I dare them to try and enter the Chamber of Purity at the base of Mt. Anarch
And? There are places that the Inquisition owns that a Grey Knight would be killed for trying to enter just as easily. Just because the base is secure doesn't make them the Emperor's closest servants.
But you know what? If a Living Saint wanted access to the Chamber of Purity, the Grey Knights wouldn't be able to stop them. They probably wouldn't even try-- Living Saints are literally the physical embodiment of the Emperor's will. To deny a Living Saint is to deny the Emperor Himself. Even ignoring that (Living Saints are extremely rare, and there's really no reason why they'd want to go to the Chamber of Purity anyway, there's far more important things for them to do than visit that particular base), the founders of the Sisters of Battle actually had an audience with the Emperor-- the last recorded audience in Imperial history. They have His blessings, and are granted His miracles, a connection to the Emperor that Space Marines do not have.
I wouldn't ever deny that Space Marines have superior biology. But a boltgun or chainsword will still kill them all the same. Exceptional "mere humans" can accomplish as much as any Astartes can. The Sisters of Battle are, in their entirety, exceptional humans. The fact that Space Marines themselves regard Sisters as equals says volumes to this extent. Sisters are merely human-- and yet, merely human is a deceptive phrase, for there is nothing mere about those mortals.
To bring this little rant back on topic, Space Marines exist out of tradition. The Emperor wanted to make them his primary elite forces, but they betrayed him. Despite the collective betrayal of the Astartes, enough Marines stayed loyal to justify their continued existence to the Imperium, after the reorganization via the Codex Astartes in order to ensure that they did not have a good chance to create a second Horus Heresy. The Imperium tolerates them out of tradition and usefulness.
Most of the time, the Imperial Guard. and the various PDFs.
The Imperial Guard and the various PDFs win more battles for the Imperium every year than the entirety of the Astartes win in a thousand years. As for ghostbusters themselves, they're closer to low-level Inquisitorial agents than Astartes.
But you know what? If a Living Saint wanted access to the Chamber of Purity, the Grey Knights wouldn't be able to stop them. They probably wouldn't even try-- Living Saints are literally the physical embodiment of the Emperor's will.
Actually, they would.
"Only the Chapter's Grand Masters are permitted to enter these halls unbidden." - p.31 Codex: Grey Knights
Short of the Emperor personally (or maybe Malcador the Sigillite), the Purifiers would steadfastly kill anything or anyone else that tried to enter the Chamber. And besides, Living Saints work alongside the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus rather than the Ordo Malleus. Who are far more ruthless than either...I believe I had this discussion before, though I can't remember which thread. The Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus decide whether or not a person is a Saint, but I'm willing to bet that if the Ordo Malleus oversaw the examination, they'd find a link to the Warp. In which case, say goodbye - its either a firing squad or the fire. Or just a bolt round to the head and a cover up by the Daemon Hunters.
They have His blessings, and are granted His miracles, a connection to the Emperor that Space Marines do not have.
No, but the Space Marines have the Emperor's blood in their veins, especially the Grey Knights. As they say, blood is thicker than water.
yes yes we know the IG , PDFs and all those types win more battles and wars..since they are in those wars..they also lose more wars as well..its all part of the 40k ball of war.
and as to respect to the Ghostbusters they did banish a ancient god.....not alot of "low level inquistorial agents " have that in their portfolio..
THen they would probably be killed. Living Saints are the embodiment of the Emperor's will, and the Emperor is far more powerful than any mere Grey Knight. If he wishes to send the Living Saint in, then they will get in. In fact, they could probably get in without the Grey Knights even noticing-- unless the Emperor desired them to notice.
Tadashi wrote: Living Saints work alongside the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus
Also the Imperial Guard. Also the High Lord of Terra. Also the Administratum. Also the Adeptus Astartes, the Adeptus Arbites, and plenty of other adeptus as well.
Living Saints are symbols of hope and victory for ALL of the Imperium's servants-- and that is all that Grey Knights are, merely servants of the Emperor. The first Saint Sabbat commanded several companies of Astartes, uncounted numbers of Imperial Guard, and the zealous legions of the Ecclesiarchy, and Sisters of Battle as well.
Tadashi wrote: The Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus decide whether or not a person is a Saint
Whether or not a being is officially declared a saint or living saint is irrelevant to whether or not they actually are.
Tadashi wrote: but I'm willing to bet that if the Ordo Malleus oversaw the examination they'd find a link to the Warp. In which case, say goodbye - its either a firing squad or the fire. Or just a bolt round to the head and a cover up by the Daemon Hunters.
And then, when the firing squad is unable to kill them because of the Emperor's divine intervention, or the bolter round refuses to fire, or the fires do not burn them, the Inquisitor would likely reconsider. Or, for that matter, the Inquisitor themselves would probably be killed for themselves being a heretic-- the Ordo Malleus has its own problems with radicals and heretics in its ranks, after all, no matter how much you might try to claim otherwise.
For that matter, unlike in most other areas of 40k, the lore is unanimous about Living Saints. They are not connected to the warp. Almost every single source on the topic specifically says this, and none of them contradict it. You may want to lie to yourself and make gak up to claim otherwise, but that doesn't actually change anything.
Tadashi wrote: No, but the Space Marines have the Emperor's blood in their veins,
Blood ten thousand years removed, thinned so \much that they're having mutations and abnormalities on a fairly regular basis.
The Sisters of Battle may not have the Emperor's blood in them, but they are still the Daughters of the Emperor in spirit-- far more loyal, determined, and dedicated than any Space Marine.
Stop licking the Ordo Malleus' boots long enough to realize that other factions are also awesome.
Tadashi wrote: The Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus decide whether or not a person is a Saint
Whether or not a being is officially declared a saint or living saint is irrelevant to whether or not they actually are.
Lord Inquisitor Coteaz would beg to differ. If he found a link to the Warp, to hell with the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus.
The Sisters of Battle may not have the Emperor's blood in them, but they are still the Daughters of the Emperor in spirit-- far more loyal, determined, and dedicated than any Space Marine.
Enough for them to be used as a catalyst for blood magic.
Stop licking the Ordo Malleus' boots long enough to realize that other factions are also awesome.
Ultimately, Grey Knights are empowered to use whatever means necessary to fight Chaos - including sorceries that would shock even the Thousand Sons and Daemon Weapons that would drive even Chaos Space Marines mad.
Tadashi wrote: Lord Inquisitor Coteaz would beg to differ. If he found a link to the Warp, to hell with the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus.
He wouldn't;, almost every single fluff source on Living Saints specifically says that they are not connected to the warp ,and the remainder do not contradict this.
Tadashi wrote: Lord Inquisitor Coteaz would beg to differ. If he found a link to the Warp, to hell with the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus.
He wouldn't;, almost every single fluff source on Living Saints specifically says that they are not connected to the warp ,and the remainder do not contradict this.
No - instead they're being manipulated like puppets from a distance by the Emperor's psychic might. Congratulations - the Grey Knights' use of Sisters as a catalyst for their sorceries now has true Imperial approval.
Lord Inquisitor Coteaz is irrelevant.
One of the highest members of the Ordo Malleus Grand Conclave is never irrelevant.
Void__Dragon wrote: The best feat a Living Saint has is killing a Daemon Prince.
Actually, the best feat a Living Saint has is CONQUERING A HUGE FETHING SEGMENT OF THE GALAXY.
Yeah - except Lord Solar Macharius and the Primarchs all did that. And so did hundreds if not thousands of Warmasters from the Imperial Guard/Navy over the millennia.
And Grey Knights have seen off countless daemonic threats/incursions LONG BEFORE the Sisters rose on a backwater world.
Tadashi wrote: Yeah - except Lord Solar Macharius and the Primarchs all did that. And so did hundreds if not thousands of Warmasters from the Imperial Guard/Navy over the millennia.
Since you're not actually bothering to read the posts you're responding to, I'm not going to read yours.
Have fun trying to spank Grey Knights and bash everyone who isn't a Grey Knight.
Tadashi wrote: Yeah - except Lord Solar Macharius and the Primarchs all did that. And so did hundreds if not thousands of Warmasters from the Imperial Guard/Navy over the millennia.
Since you're not actually bothering to read the posts you're responding to, I'm not going to read yours. You have nothing of value to add, and are just spanking off grey knights as if they're the only faction in 40k.
What pretentious drivel.
So are yours - Imperial Guardsmen and Astartes have done more for the Imperium than the Sisters ever have or ever will. Without the former, the Imperium would have crumbled to dust long ago. Without the latter would be worse off or would have never arisen at all.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: But I thought this thread was "why do Space marines even exist? "
The problem is, that's been answered a few times over now. Hell, I tried to bring it back on topic, but certain posters are not interested in actually talking about the topic itself.
This thread's really pretty much over, aside from some worthless "the fiction behind my favored group of little plastic soldiers is better than the fiction behind your favored little group of plastic soldiers" arguments.
Based on the sum of all the posts that have been made on this thread it is clear to me that it is due to the combination of all the various agencies of the Imperium; Grey Knights, Sisters, Imeprial Guard, Astartes, etc... that maintain the Imperium, that is without question. One single entity within the Imperium could not guarantee its collective safety, so no more who is better or who has more influence or anymore nonsense.
The original post deals with the existence of the Astartes but it has devolved into a squabble over who is cooler.
Melissa, though I dont agree with alot of your opinions regarding the Astartes, I respect and admire your knowledge on the factions of the Imperium, and furthermore, I agree with you on that no one faction is better than another and all of them ought to be just as appreciated as the Astartes.
I hope this thread takes a turn back toward relevance.
Melissia wrote: Actually, the best feat a Living Saint has is CONQUERING A HUGE FETHING SEGMENT OF THE GALAXY.
Something no purifier has ever done.
Seriously ,stop spanking off grey knights for just a moment so you can realize there's plenty of awesome in the rest of the lore too.
An irrelevant point, and I'd like to believe you know that.
While such a feat is impressive from a commanding standpoint, it means exactly nothing when determining whether or not she could beat up the Purifiers and force her way through them.
Also: Grey Knights are not meant to conquer worlds, they are meant to be a fast-response force when Daemons breach the veil into the Materium. I am sure ignoring that aspect of the fluff was very convenient for you.
It's really weird, how you can accuse other people of spanking and being fanboys or girls, when you're the one making sweeping and absolute statements like that the Sisters of Battle, every single solitary one, is "far more loyal, determined, and dedicated than any Space Marine".
Such a statement can't be proven either way, so why even make it? Despite what you may believe I don't dislike Sisters of Battle like Tadashi seems to. I won't claim Sister power comes from the Warp because I've seen the evidence that it is explicitly not the case (Well, not Chaos anyway, in a very technical sense it would considering the Emperor's power is rooted in the Warp). You, on the other hand, actively bash the faction you are arguing against in favor of whichever one you are supporting (Typically Orks or Sisters of Battle). So which one of us is really the biased one, hm?
Void__Dragon wrote: Despite what you may believe I don't dislike Sisters of Battle like Tadashi seems to.
Only because despite the Inquisition being a bunch of frakheads, they were at least founded on the Emperor's orders. The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy, on the other hand, are off-shoots of a proscribed cult. And one proscribed by Imperial Decree no less.
Heck I personally hate the turn GW has taken with the Astartes from the ancient days of the game...I liked my kill crazed fanatics, who were the last thing you truly wanted to see descending from the sky...because you knew things were truly fethed up at that point.
Now its space knights and glory boys of the imperium, blood of the Emperor, and blah blah.
I got into 40k back when 30 marines came in a box, and they inscribed kil kil kil on their knuckle dragging powerfists.
But as time went along the sea change happened and now they have equal amounts of bling as ammo on their suits, and some chapters are turned into mary sues.. oh well, at least the minis look alot better, (although always liked the original missle launcher )
And as to why the Marines still exist, cause they have a niche to fill in the warmachine of the empire..doing the jobs that others cannot do or will not do, lets face it thats what they are all about (fluff wise all along).
If the big had not been put on the golden toilet by his no.1 son, who knows what he would have made from the astartes, or how he would have expanded them, but in the final solution they were made to SERVE the empire/Emperor in what ever needed doing, and when only a huge zealot in PA will do then its call in the Marines, if they are available and if you can contact them..kinda like the A-Team.
And yes everyone else in the IOM is also fighting and dying, the Astartes are just more photo-genic.
Me..I play MARINES MALEVOLANT..somebodies gotta be the bad guy
If the big had not been put on the golden toilet by his no.1 son, who knows what he would have made from the astartes, or how he would have expanded them, but in the final solution they were made to SERVE the empire/Emperor in what ever needed doing, and when only a huge zealot in PA will do then its call in the Marines, if they are available and if you can contact them..kinda like the A-Team.
No idea about the Astartes, but the Primarchs were meant to go into seclusion with the Emperor once the plan (whatever it was) was complete.
Me..I play MARINES MALEVOLANT..somebodies gotta be the bad guy
Void__Dragon wrote: You, on the other hand, actively bash the faction you are arguing against in favor of whichever one you are supporting
So saying that Space Marines are not unbeatable gods of war is bashing them?
Feth it. If this is the baseline for your argument, I think I'm gonna just go watch red vs blue instead.
Your base argument is that marines are useless and other's can do all he things they do better. Wich is not true.
Her base argument isn't Astartes are useless - its Sisters are better since they have miracles, devotion, and faith. Nature of said miracles the Ordo Malleus would probably love to investigate...and which the Astartes, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, and everyone else do fine without.
Me..I play MARINES MALEVOLANT..somebodies gotta be the bad guy
Much like the pre-Heresy World Eaters then.
Nah..no silly chain axes and running around..we shoot holes in them, and drop artillery....before we chop them up.
while twirling our evil black mustaches.
I actually started them as kinda a protest to all the shining knight chapters that have been popping up, and have found they are actually fun to play in character..specially in team games. friendly fire..isn't!
Nah..no silly chain axes and running around..we shoot holes in them, and drop artillery....before we chop them up.
while twirling our evil black mustaches.
I actually started them as kinda a protest to all the shining knight chapters that have been popping up, and have found they are actually fun to play in character..specially in team games. friendly fire..isn't!
Meh...who cares about collateral damage. Its to be expected in war - as long as nothing/no one irreplaceable is lost, its fine. Although I prefer a cleaner operation...
No, that's a strawman that you put up so that you can be lazy and not actually have to read my posts.
I actually do read them/did read them.
And it is all the same.
As Tadashi said:
Tadashi wrote:Her base argument isn't Astartes are useless - its Sisters are better since they have miracles, devotion, and faith. Nature of said miracles the Ordo Malleus would probably love to investigate...and which the Astartes, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, and everyone else do fine without.
Oh whoopty fethin' do, Tadashi is wrong about my opinions on 40k. Stop the goddamned presses, this is front page material here. Obviously this is just simply a thing that never happens, aside from all the time.
If you did, you'd have seen where I repeatedly said that Astartes have biological advantages over humans. You know, since they do. Oh wait, you didn't see that, so obviously you weren't reading my posts. Or maybe you'd have seen where I said that Sisters of Battle and Astartes consider eachother equals. Multiple times, in fact. Oh wait, you didn't see that, so obviously you weren't reading my posts.
Or if you are reading my posts, you're reading it with an insane bias that allows your mind to ignore most of the content and blindly claim that I'm marine bashing instead. Either way, how about we stop talking about me and start talking about 40k instead?
I'll help you in fact. Let's talk about Marines and why they exist.
The Emperor created Astartes in huge numbers in order to try to have a sizable elite army and conquer the galaxy. That's why they exist, in the sense of "how/why they were created". As for their continued existence, Astartes have a legend built around them, that has built up a tradition that makes them a valuable asset for the Imperium. Although Astartes collectively lost the favor of the Emperor because of the Horus Heresy, they're still useful as warriors of the Imperium-- at least, when they can be convinced to fight for the Imperium instead of going off on their own little agendas. Then again, the same can be said of the Mechanicus at times, but I digress. So the combination of tradition and usefulness has kept their existence desirable. The existence of the Codex Astartes makes them more tolerable, as it provides strict limitations in order to prevent them from gaining too much power as to cause another horus heresy. So... that's why they exist in terms of "why they continue to exist".
And, of course, why they REALLY exist-- to sell models. But this is a background forum, so that's less important here.
now from the veiwpoint of a common soldier upon the battle field, that may have been in prior engagements that also involved SOB and SM, I would much rather see the SOB show up..with the Astartes you have a fairly narrow chance of getting one of the warm huggy chapters ( UM, Salamanders ) and may get ..oh I dont know..Fleshtearers, or Blooddrinkers..or Charchardons, or my boys the MM..at which point, your just kinda in the way.
gimme the daughters of the Emporer in that case everytime, cause at least you only have to worry bout just the enemy killing you
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: now from the veiwpoint of a common soldier upon the battle field, that may have been in prior engagements that also involved SOB and SM, I would much rather see the SOB show up..with the Astartes you have a fairly narrow chance of getting one of the warm huggy chapters ( UM, Salamanders ) and may get ..oh I dont know..Fleshtearers, or Blooddrinkers..or Charchardons, or my boys the MM..at which point, your just kinda in the way.
gimme the daughters of the Emporer in that case everytime, cause at least you only have to worry bout just the enemy killing you
Plus sisters are nicer to look at
Good luck if the Grey Knights arrive - Sisters or not, the Ordo Malleus will kill everything non-Astartes to maintain secrecy.
ahhh ,But Melissa you forget the one power that countermands all others in war is the power of murphy's laws...
So gimme the much more (less Hazardous to be around ) 100% SOB chance then the 70% or even worse chance with the SM.
Give murphy a inch and he will kill you for it.
and I lump the Grey knights up there with having the enemy getting reinforced for my guardsmans survival POV, I even remember their fluff when a squad of GK cost 1200pts and were all level 4 psychers or somesuch...and the best that could happen is be a SM around them..at least then you just got mindwiped..everyone else..well theres the door.
Melissia wrote: Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.
And to be fair, Ultramarines and Ultramarine descended chapters are supposed to be the most common of the Marines. I forgot how common though, hrm.
Melissia wrote: Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.
Not to mention deviating from tactical plans in favor of 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges. On the other hand, Astartes and Guardsmen follow the tactical and strategic dictates of the Codex Astartes and the Tactica Imperialis.
Melissia wrote: Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.
Not to mention deviating from tactical plans in favor of 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges. On the other hand, Astartes and Guardsmen follow the tactical and strategic dictates of the Codex Astartes and the Tactica Imperialis.
I can think of many examples where the Astartes and the Guard have undertaken 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges - with varing degrees of success depending on the oppostion.
Melissia wrote: Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.
Not to mention deviating from tactical plans in favor of 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges. On the other hand, Astartes and Guardsmen follow the tactical and strategic dictates of the Codex Astartes and the Tactica Imperialis.
I can think of many examples where the Astartes and the Guard have undertaken 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges - with varing degrees of success depending on the oppostion.
Only when the Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialis dictate it as appropriate - the Sisters do it as a matter of course. Where WWII-era Japanese soldiers had nationalism, these girls have zeal, and they put the IJA to shame.
Meh...when the Emperor orders the Ecclesiarchy burned down, he'll have the Sisters kneel before him ala Word Bearers at Monarchia. The only I dislike about them is their 'faith'. Especially since the Emperor proscribed his own worship.
While that faith may not have been what the Emperor had in mind, fact of the matter is that it is necessary in the 41st millenium for survival.
Faith for the Emperor is one of the few things that keeps mortal man's spirits from crumbling, the Space Marines could not withstand those that assail the Imperium alone, despite their considerable might.
Also, I am moderately certain there is a fluff piece or story where the Emperor, though not really happy with the current state of things, is content with the current Imperium, not ashamed by it.
Faith for the Emperor is one of the few things that keeps mortal man's spirits from crumbling, the Space Marines could not withstand those that assail the Imperium alone, despite their considerable might.
But Space Marines don't believe in the Emperor's divinity. And the Imperial Army did well even without faith during the Horus Heresy. The Lectitio Divinitatus and other such cults were constantly persecuted by the Imperial Administration all the way to the Siege of Terra.
Also, I am moderately certain there is a fluff piece or story where the Emperor, though not really happy with the current state of things, is content with the current Imperium, not ashamed by it.
In his audience with Draco, he admitted the Imperium's status as a necessity, but he implied he disliked/hated it. Since the Emperor is still Human for all his power, its credits to carrots that if he had the chance, he'd find a way to end this fiasco.
Void__Dragon wrote: In an absolute sense, no, but in a practical sense? Without it, it is more probable that humanity would be dead.
Which is why he tolerates it for now. Without his direct guidance, there's no other way.
The Emperor is not human at all IMHO.
Not Human as we know it. He is the first, and greatest, of the psychic next-generation Humans. Psychic Inquisitors may be counted as weaker members of this species, with other Imperial psykers (Librarians, Astropaths, and so on) being catch-up mods. The ones killed/sacrificed to power the Astronomican are just 'gakky' prototypes.
Considering how it ended up with his guidance... Well yeah.
He is so far-removed from humanity in a mental sense that any relationship to them as a species is pretty much meaningless, honestly.
He is a massive psychic presence rivaling the Chaos Gods themselves in the Warp, only Gork and Mork are more powerful than he is there, and they are the gestalt of the entire Ork race's psyche.
Granted, I acknowledge that my interpretation of the Emperor might not be what the writers had in mind, but he comes across as colossally douchey and inhuman to me, far less human than the Primarchs he created.
Void__Dragon wrote: Considering how it ended up with his guidance... Well yeah.
Still a lot better than this theocratic oligarchy of a nightmare (spits).
He is so far-removed from humanity in a mental sense that any relationship to them as a species is pretty much meaningless, honestly.
He is a massive psychic presence rivaling the Chaos Gods themselves in the Warp, only Gork and Mork are more powerful than he is there, and they are the gestalt of the entire Ork race's psyche.
Granted, I acknowledge that my interpretation of the Emperor might not be what the writers had in mind, but he comes across as colossally douchey and inhuman to me, far less human than the Primarchs he created.
That's why the only description for his power is 'godlike'. Even the Eldar acknowledged him - something they never do to anyone outside their species. And Eldrad is supposed to know the Emperor...my guess is, he met the Emperor before he became Emperor, tried to dissuade him, and when the Emperor refused, tried to kill him. Only to get their asses handed to them. I imagine Eldrad barely escaped with his life, or the Emperor let him go as an insult.
Lynata wrote: The fluff is not consistent when there is clearly a difference in how this comparison is depicted based on source origin. I never said I want to pretend it "does not exist" (in fact I clearly pointed out that one vision is as good as another), I am pointing out that assuming the fluff is in any way uniform and even meant to coexist when there are so many obvious contradictions is a fallacy.
The fluff is consistent because the majority of the fluff checks out with itself. In the majority of fluff that show Space Marines fighting Sisters, we're shown Space Marines decimating Sororitas. Thus, the fluff is consistent with itself.
In a one-on-one, with both combatants having an equal amount of battlefield experience and clear line of sight towards each other, I'd agree. But as I said, circumstances.
With the proper circumstances, a Guardsmen can kill Kaldor Driego in close-quarters combat. "Circumstances" have too many variables to be of any use in an objective discussion. And as well, this just proves my point. If Sororitas need specific circumstances in their favor to beat Space Marines, how does that imply that they're on a Space Marine's level?
I'm really not sure from where you have the impression that bolters have little effect on power armour; even the game itself certainly shows us that Space Marines drop easily to bolter fire.
"One of the loyalists heard the pounding of their armored boots and turned, his bolter ready. The muzzle of his bolter flared and Adrastus felt three solid impacts to the left side of his chest. Spitting back a curse, he hurled himself at the Space Marine.
"Die, cowardly dog!" Bellowed Andrastus, firing his bolt pistol into the face of his victim.
The Space Marine recoiled under the salvo, but brought up his bolter in time to smash aside Andrastus' sword arm as it came down for the killing blow. Andrastus launched at the Imperial, bearing them both down to the ground..." - No Mercy, No Forgiveness; pg. 45, Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition
As well, in every SM vs. CSM fight in the Night Lords trilogy, as well as in Brothers of the Snake, there's numerous descriptions of bolt rounds basically denting /shattering armor, but not piercing it.
If a Space Marines' speed, agility, reflexes, strength, aim and durability were oh-so-superior as you claim, a certain Catachan would not have managed to strangle a CSMLord to death with a friggin' root.
Tell that to the squad of girls who got mangled by a single Flesh Tearer who'd succumbed to the Black Rage in ADB's short story.
Likewise, if we look at Canoness Praxedes, we have an example of a Battle Sister having engaged a Tyranid Hive Tyrant in single combat, bashing its head in with her power maul.
Wow, something Space Marines do every day!
In GW material, we have examples of epic feats and stupid deaths for both Marines and Sisters. The average for both is somewhere in-between, so I would advise not just focusing on heroic legends but endeavouring to find the sweet spot that is in line with any and all impressions from a single source origin, ideally with a focus on unbiased technical descriptions (yes, they do exist even in GW books - they're rare but they exist!) rather than tales of certain individual feats that may well be exceptions from the rule.
The "norm" shows Space Marines as being far superior soldiers to Sororitas in every way.
Lynata wrote: [quote=Arcsquad12 [edit 2] Also, the quotes requested by BlaxicanX:
"Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to war zones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance." - 1E Rogue Trader Rulebook (1987), reprinted in White Dwarf #292 (2004)
"In such cases a Conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a course of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas. Few Space Marine Chapters would be asked to move against another except in the direst of circumstances. Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite strike force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by a battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus." - Citadel Journal #49 (2002)
"Thus the Sisters find themselves in service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships." - 3E Codex: Witch Hunters (2003)
"This gave us a basis for the character of the army - vengeful warrior-adepts tasked with enforcing the purity of other Imperial organisations. The Rogue Trader art even shows a Battle Sister exacting that vengeance upon a Space Marine, so this seemed particularly appropriate. In fact, the Space Marine is from the Rainbow Warriors Chapter, and as we haven't heard from them for some time I guess the Sisters' mission was successful!" - White Dwarf #292 (2004), from Andy Hoare's Designer's Notes
"Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause, then the elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against a wayward Chapter." - Index Astartes IV: Rogue Sons (2004)
"Heretics take many forms. Most are lost humans, whose weak minds have been corrupted by the manifold temptations of a dark and sinister galaxy. None are immune: planetary governors, Imperial Guard commanders and even whole Space Marine Chapters have been declared heretic and been exterminated as such by the Sisters of Battle." - White Dwarf #382 (October 2011)
I suppose that should do it. Mind you, this is just the stuff that I managed to pick up over the years of my never-ending quest for more obscure SoB fluff in GW's material. I still find new bits every now and then, so I don't claim completeness on this topic.
Oh, but I also promised you something about power armour: "Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium." - Codex: Angels of Death
Mind you, "most small arms" sounds more like lasguns than bolters, but I would expect both of them to fall into this category. Naturally, with bolters closer to the 50% protection range, and lasguns more towards the 85% scale. Should be pretty close to the TT rules, actually? Not that this is very surprising, considering that the fluff was crafted around the rules and does not exist like some sort of separate product as if it'd depict an entirely different world with no connection to the tabletop whatsoever.
Well, thanks for taking the time and effort to compile all of this stuff, it seems like a lot of work.
Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. I'm well aware of the fact that Sororitas are used to cull renegade chapters, in fact I stated as much earlier in the discussion. However, what I was asking for was fluff that would imply that Sisters can stand toe to toe with Marines on equal footing. These quotes don't do that.
Likewise, if we look at Canoness Praxedes, we have an example of a Battle Sister having engaged a Tyranid Hive Tyrant in single combat, bashing its head in with her power maul.
Wow, something Space Marines do every day!
Usually with their bare hands, a la Mephiston
Oh, and let's bring up a Space Marine that is around the same as a living saint but not actually one: the Sanguinor!
He killed one of the mightiest demons of Khorne by using his jump pack. Never heard of any of the two done by non astartes.
Also, Mephiston has defended the entrence to a hive city for 5 days against a tyranid horde non-stop. No rest, no food, etc. That is something no non astartes can do.
They just can't.
Maybe the mightiest living saints, but those are less common.
Space Marines are FAR more likely to get killed by a Hive Tyrant in close combat than to kill it. The average marine, just like the average Sister or the average Guardsman, stands very little chance of killing a hive tyrant in close combat.
This isn't something Marines do "every day". That's just pointless fanwankery.
Melissia wrote: Space Marines are FAR more likely to get killed by a Hive Tyrant in close combat than to kill it. The average marine, just like the average Sister or the average Guardsman, stands very little chance of killing a hive tyrant in close combat.
This isn't something Marines do "every day". That's just pointless fanwankery.
Agreed. Anybody taking a tyrant down in combat is exceptional.
Melissia wrote: Space Marines are FAR more likely to get killed by a Hive Tyrant in close combat than to kill it.
Non-sequiter
Did you actually even read the post that I responded to? I submit that you did not, and this despite the fact that it was YOUR post I was responding to. You claimed that Marines kill Hive Tyrants every day. Except of course this is a stupid claim which isn't based on the lore; Hive Tyrants are FAR too tough and deadly even for most Marines to kill. Stop hating on Tyranids so much. It takes heavy firepower or insane skill to down a hive tyrant, and the average marine simply does not carry enough.
The average marine is not more significantly likely to kill a Hive Tyrant in close combat than a Sister of Battle is. They're both fethed. Only exceptional Marines and exceptional Sisters can kill hive tyrants in single combat. Stop the marinewank and actually pay attention to the conversation that is being had.
Hive Tyrants are not only among the most advanced Tyranid organisms but they also have an inherent ability to project fear on a psychic level. Astartes, Sororitas, and Guardsman are more likely to gak their pants in pure, unadulterated terror than defeat a Tyrant in close combat. Anyone who can claim to have defeated a Hive Tyrant in close combat is either a combat god or got extremely lucky. Whoever said Space Marines do this every day is full of it.
Omg, this thread devolved quickly in a single day. [Citation needed] everywhere.
I'll just try to focus on the discussion I had going and ignore most of the hysteric rants from both sides. How on Holy Terra did Living Saints even get dragged into this? I thought we were comparing troops, for Gork's sake!
Couple things I will add a remark to, though:
Tadashi wrote:Enough for them to be used as a catalyst for blood magic.
Their fault for being more pure and less corruptible than the Grey Knights, I guess.
Augustine_Maven wrote:Based on the sum of all the posts that have been made on this thread it is clear to me that it is due to the combination of all the various agencies of the Imperium; Grey Knights, Sisters, Imeprial Guard, Astartes, etc... that maintain the Imperium, that is without question. One single entity within the Imperium could not guarantee its collective safety, so no more who is better or who has more influence or anymore nonsense.
Truth be told, all those agencies cannot guarantee the IoM's safety even when you count them together, so the question if a single one of them is capable to do so should not even be raised. However, I think it should honestly be obvious that the Imperial Guard would be the most likely candidate by virtue of its quantity and distribution, regardless of its many drawbacks (where other military forces may be better suited).
Tadashi wrote:Nature of said miracles the Ordo Malleus would probably love to investigate...and which the Astartes, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, and everyone else do fine without.
Do you really, really believe they never did this when it is so very obvious an exceptional thing?
As the Codex fluff says, such feats are only "miraculous for the unschooled", which an Inquisitor of the Ordo Malleus likely is not.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:gimme the daughters of the Emporer in that case everytime, cause at least you only have to worry bout just the enemy killing you
Mr Morden wrote:I can think of many examples where the Astartes and the Guard have undertaken 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges - with varing degrees of success depending on the oppostion.
Only when the Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialis dictate it as appropriate - the Sisters do it as a matter of course. Where WWII-era Japanese soldiers had nationalism, these girls have zeal, and they put the IJA to shame.
^ implying that all Space Marine Chapters adhere to the Codex Astartes.
Tadashi wrote:Good luck if the Grey Knights arrive - Sisters or not, the Ordo Malleus will kill everything non-Astartes to maintain secrecy.
Wrong. Guardsman are killed - and even then not always. More precious troops get mindscrubbed or be left alone completely, all depending on how much the Inquisition trusts them. And the Sisters of Battle are still the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus.
BlaxicanX wrote:The fluff is consistent because the majority of the fluff checks out with itself. In the majority of fluff that show Space Marines fighting Sisters, we're shown Space Marines decimating Sororitas. Thus, the fluff is consistent with itself.
Definition of CONSISTENCY
1 archaic: condition of adhering together, firmness of material substance, firmness of constitution or character, persistency
2 degree of firmness, density, viscosity, or resistance to movement or separation of constituent particles
3 agreement or harmony of parts or features to one another or a whole, correspondence, specifically: ability to be asserted together without contradiction, harmony of conduct or practice with profession
Contradictions destroy consistency. End sentence. You could say the fluff is "somewhat consistent" or "fairly consistent", but even then that would be pretty far fetched when it is obvious that the contradictions exist because the various writers were not interested in a uniform portrayal. At the end of the day, GW has their own vision for the Sisters of Battle, and a whole lot of writers elsewhere have another.
You go ahead sticking to your precious novels and the silly things they sometimes claim (enjoy your Multilaser-Marines), and I stick to what the creators of the setting write in the studio books. Deal?
BlaxicanX wrote:With the proper circumstances, a Guardsmen can kill Kaldor Driego in close-quarters combat. "Circumstances" have too many variables to be of any use in an objective discussion. And as well, this just proves my point. If Sororitas need specific circumstances in their favor to beat Space Marines, how does that imply that they're on a Space Marine's level?
You do realize that circumstances always play a role, yes? One could just as well say that a Space Marine also needs "specific circumstances" to kill a Sister. Or a Guardsman. For example, he needs to spot them first and have a suitable weapon, with ammunition if ranged. No, the true question is whether they are "close enough" to each other to both have a good chance. And as they both wear armour of the same protective value, and they both carry guns of the same destructive capability. I'd say the playing field is fairly equal. And GW seems inclined to agree - but more on that below.
BlaxicanX wrote:As well, in every SM vs. CSM fight in the Night Lords trilogy, as well as in Brothers of the Snake, there's numerous descriptions of bolt rounds basically denting /shattering armor, but not piercing it.
So what? You are still clinging to individual events rather than general descriptions here, which is very risky as I have pointed out before.
Think about what you are implying. By what you suggest here, SM and CSM should simply throw away their boltguns when fighting each other, because they are apparently useless? Nope, I guess we'll have to disagree on that, and once again I point towards the technical description of Space Marine power armour in the Angels of Death Codex. A description not sullied by potentially being an exception from the rule.
BlaxicanX wrote:Tell that to the squad of girls who got mangled by a single Flesh Tearer who'd succumbed to the Black Rage in ADB's short story.
Are you not aware that I stick only to GW's own material?
If I'd adopt everything I read in some random novel into my perception of the 'verse, I would have to deal with backflipping Terminators, cowardly Commissars, and a Storm Trooper that kills an entire Order of SoB (which somehow got infiltrated by 'stealers *blinks*) on his own.
Not saying that the Flesh Tearer bit is impossible, mind you... Circumstances. I'm just rather biased against novels since I have become used to massive contradictions to Codex fluff. Though, if you really want to delve into novels, read Ben Counter's Daemonblood to see how Sister Aescarion whips around Sergeant Castus with her power axe.
BlaxicanX wrote:Wow, something Space Marines do every day!
In your Black Library books maybe.
BlaxicanX wrote:Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. I'm well aware of the fact that Sororitas are used to cull renegade chapters, in fact I stated as much earlier in the discussion. However, what I was asking for was fluff that would imply that Sisters can stand toe to toe with Marines on equal footing. These quotes don't do that.
You were claiming that there was only a single reference for Sisters hunting down Marine Chapters, which I have adressed here.
As for the equal footing, I have already mentioned that Space Marines have an artificial advantage. As I said, I am disputing the width of the gap you apparently see between these forces.
But if I'd really wanted to push the issue - you know, I have already quoted the GW website a few pages back, but here it is again:
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
I bolded the important part for you this time. Feel free to look up a GW quote that specifically counters this.
Eetion wrote:I thought the grey knights have killed sisters in a dubious piece of fluff wherre there dancing in blood or something.
It's not really dubious - that was in the 5E Grey Knights Codex.
And it was not at all done to preserve secrecy, but because the Grey Knights simply required the pure blood of the Sororitas, most of whom remained uncorrupted by the daemonic Bloodtide, to ward themselves against it. Apparently the GKs own incorruptability is, at least now, not something that comes natural but which is artificially induced via rituals and paraphernalia. Though the Bloodtide's strength may have been an exception.
Lynata wrote: Their fault for being more pure and less corruptible than the Grey Knights, I guess.
Not really - the Sisters were being affected by the Bloodtide too. The Grey Knights' blood magic probably transformed the Sisters' blood into some sort of ablative coating or something along those lines.
Do you really, really believe they never did this when it is so very obvious an exceptional thing?
As the Codex fluff says, such feats are only "miraculous for the unschooled", which an Inquisitor of the Ordo Malleus likely is not.
Who's to say the Ordo Malleus didn't try, only to be told to feth off by the Ordo Hereticus?
Wrong. Guardsman are killed - and even then not always. More precious troops get mindscrubbed or be left alone completely, all depending on how much the Inquisition trusts them. And the Sisters of Battle are still the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus.
Tadashi wrote:Not really - the Sisters were being affected by the Bloodtide too. The Grey Knights' blood magic probably transformed the Sisters' blood into some sort of ablative coating or something along those lines.
Not all Sisters. Some of them got tainted and then killed by daemons. The rest, those who stayed pure, were then sacrificed by the GKs (specifically because they remained pure). "Ablative coating" seems to be an adequate description, though. They painted their armour and weapons with it, if I recall correctly. I imagine it would work somewhat similar to hexagrammic wards or whatever, at least in effect. GKs probably have a catalogue of stuff protecting them from the taint of Chaos, and the Blood of Innocents (or something along those lines) is one option out of many, giving them relative incorruptability.
Tadashi wrote:Who's to say the Ordo Malleus didn't try, only to be told to feth off by the Ordo Hereticus?
Common sense.
I mean, okay - perhaps it is not impossible that this occurred. I actually *do* imagine the Convocation of Nephilim granting some sort of protection / political clout, I just wouldn't say it extends this far. The Ordo Malleus gets to check Living Saints too, after all. Plus, the Convocation of Nephilim or indeed any sort of tie to the Ordo Hereticus is not as old as the Sororitas themselves. If the Ordo Malleus really would have "jumped at the chance" to investigate what GW's game rules have already clarified to not be any sort of psychic powers or Warp magiks, then they would have probably done so in the aftermath of Vandire's fall. It would not have raised much protest to imprison his former bodyguards to test their purity. Thor may have raised his voice as he wanted their troops and ships for the Ecclesiarchy's protection, yet how could he refuse something along the lines of "you'll get them back if they are clean"? Surely, there must have been lots of suspicion towards the Imperial Cult back then, and the Ecclesiarchy did indeed experience a purge of its ranks.
But I suppose it's not a topic there is much to argue about, as it's all just speculation.
Tadashi wrote:No, anyone who came into contact with the Bloodtide got tainted by Khorne's bloodlust. Not sure - I'll check the codex.
That is half-correct. The Codex mentions "corrupts anything it touches" - but then goes on to give that Sororitas convent as an exception in the midst of a sea of taint. Or something like that ...
Yeah, if you have the book nearby, please look it up - I'd have to dig through the web to find the exact quote.
(but really, why else would the GKs have needed their blood, if not for its purity?)
Tadashi wrote:No, anyone who came into contact with the Bloodtide got tainted by Khorne's bloodlust. Not sure - I'll check the codex.
That is half-correct. The Codex mentions "corrupts anything it touches" - but then goes on to give that Sororitas convent as an exception in the midst of a sea of taint. Or something like that ...
Yeah, if you have the book nearby, please look it up - I'd have to dig through the web to find the exact quote.
Checked - some endure, some fall. The Grey Knights didn't want to take any risks, and used blood magic to counter blood magic.
(but really, why else would the GKs have needed their blood, if not for its purity?)
Because blood magic needs blood? And Astartes blood is more precious than Human blood?
Melissia wrote: Did you actually even read the post that I responded to? I submit that you did not, and this despite the fact that it was YOUR post I was responding to. You claimed that Marines kill Hive Tyrants every day.
BlaxicanX wrote:The fluff is consistent because the majority of the fluff checks out with itself. In the majority of fluff that show Space Marines fighting Sisters, we're shown Space Marines decimating Sororitas. Thus, the fluff is consistent with itself.
Definition of CONSISTENCY 1 archaic: condition of adhering together, firmness of material substance, firmness of constitution or character, persistency 2 degree of firmness, density, viscosity, or resistance to movement or separation of constituent particles 3 agreement or harmony of parts or features to one another or a whole, correspondence, specifically: ability to be asserted together without contradiction, harmony of conduct or practice with profession
Contradictions destroy consistency. End sentence. You could say the fluff is "somewhat consistent" or "fairly consistent", but even then that would be pretty far fetched when it is obvious that the contradictions exist because the various writers were not interested in a uniform portrayal. At the end of the day, GW has their own vision for the Sisters of Battle, and a whole lot of writers elsewhere have another. You go ahead sticking to your precious novels and the silly things they sometimes claim (enjoy your Multilaser-Marines), and I stick to what the creators of the setting write in the studio books. Deal?
BlaxicanX wrote:With the proper circumstances, a Guardsmen can kill Kaldor Driego in close-quarters combat. "Circumstances" have too many variables to be of any use in an objective discussion. And as well, this just proves my point. If Sororitas need specific circumstances in their favor to beat Space Marines, how does that imply that they're on a Space Marine's level?
You do realize that circumstances always play a role, yes? One could just as well say that a Space Marine also needs "specific circumstances" to kill a Sister. Or a Guardsman. For example, he needs to spot them first and have a suitable weapon, with ammunition if ranged. No, the true question is whether they are "close enough" to each other to both have a good chance. And as they both wear armour of the same protective value, and they both carry guns of the same destructive capability. I'd say the playing field is fairly equal. And GW seems inclined to agree - but more on that below.
BlaxicanX wrote:As well, in every SM vs. CSM fight in the Night Lords trilogy, as well as in Brothers of the Snake, there's numerous descriptions of bolt rounds basically denting /shattering armor, but not piercing it.
So what? You are still clinging to individual events rather than general descriptions here, which is very risky as I have pointed out before. Think about what you are implying. By what you suggest here, SM and CSM should simply throw away their boltguns when fighting each other, because they are apparently useless? Nope, I guess we'll have to disagree on that, and once again I point towards the technical description of Space Marine power armour in the Angels of Death Codex. A description not sullied by potentially being an exception from the rule.
BlaxicanX wrote:Tell that to the squad of girls who got mangled by a single Flesh Tearer who'd succumbed to the Black Rage in ADB's short story.
Are you not aware that I stick only to GW's own material? If I'd adopt everything I read in some random novel into my perception of the 'verse, I would have to deal with backflipping Terminators, cowardly Commissars, and a Storm Trooper that kills an entire Order of SoB (which somehow got infiltrated by 'stealers *blinks*) on his own.
Not saying that the Flesh Tearer bit is impossible, mind you... Circumstances. I'm just rather biased against novels since I have become used to massive contradictions to Codex fluff. Though, if you really want to delve into novels, read Ben Counter's Daemonblood to see how Sister Aescarion whips around Sergeant Castus with her power axe.
BlaxicanX wrote:Wow, something Space Marines do every day!
In your Black Library books maybe.
Again, I point out, if you want to cherry-pick fluff and only deem that which suits your personal view as valid, fine. But your argument, on an objective level, holds no merit.
The difference between you and I is that I draw my conclusions from all fluff. If there's 12 instances of a Space Marine lifting 500 pounds, and there's one instance of a Space Marine only being able to lift 100 pounds, I'm not going to assume that the latter instance is more valid just because it's studio fluff or BL fluff. Fluff is fluff, and that lends objectivity to my argument, something yours is lacking.
You were claiming that there was only a single reference for Sisters hunting down Marine Chapters
I claimed that the only fluff that implies that SIsters of Battle can stand toe to toe with Marines is the notion that they are used to cull chapters, and I claimed that that notion is irrelevent because the details surrounding how they cull chapters is left ambiguous. I never challenged the notion that they cull renegade chapters.
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
I bolded the important part for you this time. Feel free to look up a GW quote that specifically counters this.
Don't need too. I have no doubt Sisters are more pious and religious than Marines. Doesn't change the fact that they're far inferior soldiers. Considering the topic of this discussion is "Can Sisters do what the Marines do as efficiently?", their purity and faith means nothing.
As far as I'm concerned, they'll always be second best, not just to Astartes, but even to Imperial Guard.
("Attention! All personnel standby for incoming Melissa. Shields up and prepare to return fire. Achtung! Alle Personen, die Bereitschaft für eingehende Melissa. Shields up und bereiten das Feuer zu erwidern.")
Void__Dragon wrote: I'm pretty sure the average Sister of Battle is quite a ways up from the average Guardsman by virtue of both equipment and training.
Maybe...but Guardsmen are soldiers, not Witch Hunters. And soldiers (Guardsmen) and warriors (Astartes) will always be above 'nuns with guns'.
I believe the Arbites, the local PDF, or if necessary, the Imperial Guard are more than capable of this feat.
...to fighting the legions of Chaos summoned by an insane Imperial Governor sorcerer.
That's why His Imperial Majesty made the Space Marines in the first place. And even then, they'd only be needed for the worst situations. The Imperial Guard can handle most cases quite easily.
The Sisters of Battle are specialised for it and often work directly alongside the Ordo Hereticus. They excel at purging heresy of the Imperium beyond perhaps even the Space Marines, who are sent to end wars as quickly as possible.
I mean, by that token, one could say that Marines are useless because the guardsmen could eventually get the job done.
The only real issue is that there aren't enough Marines, but that issue could be easily solved fluffwise by making more, so is more of a break from reality in the setting. 40k has many.
Tadashi wrote:Because blood magic needs blood? And Astartes blood is more precious than Human blood?
"Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons." Sounds fairly specific to me. And if "any" human blood would have done it, they'd have simply snatched a couple civvies from the streets, like the corrupted priests did it for their own blood rituals.
SoBare more resistant to corruption, that has been part of their fluff (in GW's version of the setting at least) ever since their very first rules in White Dwarf, even before the 2E Codex. And if you want yet another example, check out Anastasia's story.
BlaxicanX wrote:Again, I point out, if you want to cherry-pick fluff and only deem that which suits your personal view as valid, fine. But your argument, on an objective level, holds no merit.
Ahh, so it is you who determines objectivity, then? I see. I'm sure everyone in this thread will agree that you are in no way biased towards one faction or the other.
Again, *I* point out that we all "cherry-pick fluff" simply because there exists no uniform canon. Do you really want me to quote the people who actually work on this franchise again? It is not you who decides for everyone else how the setting looks like. Deal with it.
Even -if- it would work as you say - which it does not - I find the claim that you are aware of any and all details in any and all sources of fluff ever published rather hard to believe. You like Space Marines (or so I assume), so you read Marine novels. And Marines are written epic in there. Who woulda thought. I'm going out on a limb here and assume that you have not, however, read stories like Daemonblood, Daemonifuge, Faith & Fire, Hammer & Anvil, Red & Black? Just a thought, y'know. It's hardly a surprise that your image of Space Marines is somewhat focused on their epic legends when that is 90% of all you've read.
BlaxicanX wrote:The difference between you and I is that I draw my conclusions from all fluff. If there's 12 instances of a Space Marine lifting 500 pounds, and there's one instance of a Space Marine only being able to lift 100 pounds, I'm not going to assume that the latter instance is more valid just because it's studio fluff or BL fluff. Fluff is fluff, and that lends objectivity to my argument, something yours is lacking.
If "all fluff" was intended to coexist and tie into each other, you would have a point.
With how the franchise is actually handled, however, you do not. You continue to claim that there is such a thing as "all fluff", but you need to realise that whatever you pull out of it is your opinion only. Unlike me, you do not even have various authors' and game designers' quotes on the subject, do you?
BlaxicanX wrote:I claimed that the only fluff that implies that SIsters of Battle can stand toe to toe with Marines is the notion that they are used to cull chapters, and I claimed that that notion is irrelevent because the details surrounding how they cull chapters is left ambiguous. I never challenged the notion that they cull renegade chapters.
You know what, I just checked and you're right - for some reason I skipped the middle part of your sentence there. My bad.
BlaxicanX wrote:Don't need too. I have no doubt Sisters are more pious and religious than Marines. Doesn't change the fact that they're far inferior soldiers. Considering the topic of this discussion is "Can Sisters do what the Marines do as efficiently?", their purity and faith means nothing.
Well, apparently GW does not agree with you, be it with fluff sentences like these or the Sisters' Acts of Faith in the tabletop or the Inquisitor RPG. The sentence says "fierce warriors that are equals" to Space Marines, and it presents their faith and devotion as a balance factor set against genetic enhancement. Obviously, this is referring to their willpower and dedication, which can at times have them perform beyond what the average human should be capable of, such as ignoring pain or summoning astounding reserves of strength. We have examples for this in the real world, the Sisters of Battle are just an entire army making use of this "mind over matter" idea. And it seems as if it is this that elevates them just high enough.
Of course you can simply ignore that line about the "being equals".* As I said, we are all cherry-picking, and this is only a single line from GW which is surely conflicted by lots of Black Library novels from some freelance authors.
It seems there is really no point in discussing it further - you have your interpretation of the 41st millennium, born chiefly from various novels, and I have mine from GW's own books. I do believe you when you say that the Sisters of Battle suck much more in the books you read, but that is just one more explanation for why I don't give much on outsourced fiction. Aside from a lack of continuity between the various products, they seem heavily biased to whoever the protagonist is, even more than what I am used from the codices. Gaunt's Ghost appear to eat CSMs for breakfast, and that's an IG unit!
(*: Pssst, I actually find it somewhat far-fetched myself but it seems obvious that I think them capable of a lot more than you give them credit for. Guess I just like images like the trio of heroes from the Vinculus Crusade too much)
Void__Dragon wrote:Where is the Sisters = Marines statement actually from?
GW's old Witch Hunters website - y'know, the unified Ordo Hereticus + SoB description page, before they switched to SoB only.
Here is a backup from the internet archive.
Void__Dragon wrote:The only real issue is that there aren't enough Marines, but that issue could be easily solved fluffwise by making more, so is more of a break from reality in the setting. 40k has many.
Though in all fairness, 40k at least touches upon the possibility every now and again - suggesting that it's really just politics keeping Astartes numbers low. Perhaps the High Lords are just convinced the Guard is sufficient. They are so far beyond the ordinary citizen, I could certainly see them having little of the common man's respect for the Astartes.
For those who don't want to click on the link, and to move this conversation forward, this is the line Lynata is referring to "As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines."
Can you cite an example in the actual fluff of a Sister of Battle (Or a team/group/whatever) taking out Marines that didn't rely on either exceptional individuals far beyond the common Sister, nor specific circumstances? I'd buy it if I could actually see evidence of it.
I mean, by that token, the Tyranids are perfect weapons who are completely unstoppable, as are the Necrons. Both have had sweeping statements to the effect of "Every race has to band together to have a chance against them". It is impossible for that statement to be true of both. As an example.
Not from GW's material, no. The number of short stories or even event descriptions describing individual Sisters fighting individual Marines is ... wow, I think it's actually zero. I do recall battles, but there it was always described in army-size and not about individuals.
If you want something from the Black Library (whatever good that does), I did mention Sister Aescarion from Daemonblood. Though in fairness, the Ultramarines-Sergeant-turned-Daemon-Prince does take out the remains of her small Seraphim squad, he just cannot beat her.
I'm sure there are many, many more BL stories where Sisters lose horribly to Marines, Guardsmen and little children with rocks, though. Their most popular role in the licensed fiction is that of an antagonist to beat up - a little like those poor victimised CSMs in the Gaunt's Ghosts stories.
As for 'nids and Necrons, I don't recall such statements to be made for both in the same way - though that does not necessarily have to mean much; my 40k fluff knowledge is fairly limited in that it is focused on the IoM as represented by GW's books.
Well I have take some free time and post this question of Facebook and these are the answers:
EDIT: Some post may hold vulgar language, I apologize for any in advance.
An SM is worth way more than 10 guardsmen.
Comparatively they consume less resources. Especially since they take from the Imperium Munitorum pool.
And wait, are you trying to evince plausibility from sci fi fantasy? The usual rule states that the rules are in place, the ones which underpin the sense of any sci fi fantasy universe, for the premise or the basic functionality of the universes elements to be plausible if contextualized in that way. Ergo, wasted void analysis.
i think this guy is stupid a gaurdsmens life span in battle is something like a hour were as a sm's is 200 years i dont believe that it is 70 years more like 40-50 the sm's reuse weps armour gaurds get newly made lasguns dont do gak in 40k and even puncture sm armour only knock them over the amount of gaurds it'd take to kill a daemon is 100+ and yet 1 or 2 sm's. a regiment of gaurd is 1000 or more dudes and there are 100,000s of regiments from one planet consuming more and ammo. and they use imperium resources were as a chapter is self sustaining does this guy forget the books are the big more reknowned battles where they take more loses the gaurds are used as fodder nothing more so dont even get me started on the k/d ratio gaurds do not compare to a sm
My word, just to get back to the very core of the post: Astartes were created by the emperor for one reason (conquer) and that's what they stood for all great crusade long... Back in these days they were ready to rumble within a few years, not decades as today. Back in these days too, impérium was expanding and didn't have the lack of backup they have to front now. Space marines were born to serve the great crusade, and are now mankind's only hope. There's no point asking if they are still needed, just show some respect, deference, and grate for if they didn't exist there'd be no imperium, then no IG..
I think that due to the Uriel ventris quote "A space marine is not worth mortal men simply in strength..." etc that a space marine is a godlike figure, something that symbolizes the imperiums strength as a whole, and in the books they're worth far more than ten guardsmen, and due to the overall resource output of the Imperium, the small inefficiencies that they face in makign Space Marines is far more than paid for by their performance
When you need special weapons and tactics, then PA clad heroes able to withstand firestorms and have got the balls to kick a daemon prince in the knackers are whats needed. Guard can only last so long against the strongest and most cunning of enemies.
I agree with Andrew; "Salvation's Reach" has 3 Space Marines and some servitors go up against several hundred loxatl mercenaries, and all 3 marines survive (the same cannot be said of the mercenaries). Bear in mind, that the previous time said mercenaries were fought in the books, 3 of them were holding off an imperial guard platoon quite handily.
what makes you think it takes 70 to train a tactical marine? It´s more like 20 or 30 at most. And a single marine is worth hundreds of guardsmen at least (fluff wise).
Space mariens can live so much longer than a guardsman, it may take about 70 years for a teenager to become a fully power armored space marine, it takes nearly 10 years to complete training and implants then about 50 years (depending on the chapter) as a entry lvl usually a scout. Once they are full mariens they have so much knowledge and experience they are worth so much more than what it took to train them. 50 years of service makes them more valuable to the imperium than tens of thousands of guardsmen, and space mariens are immortal to death by natural causes so mariens like Darnath Lysander, hes over 1000 years old and is the ultimate badass, the imperium could never train a normal human to do alot of the things he has done
The argument can be simplified to the folowing, Astartes are designed to fight the threats which regualr human troops would be obliterated by. The average guardsman wouldnt last against a swarm of Tyranids or a Chaos Marine, yet Space Marines not only survive they actually managed to decimate enemy forces. It's like the argument regarding neutron weapons, eventually humanity will develop them because quite frankly something tells me in the future we will need them.
If it were not for the Space Marines, the Imperium would have fallen long ago. It is only by their unyielding will, skill in war and courage that it has stood for ten thousand years. It is for the Guardsmen to hold ground, it is the Space Marines job to take it.
the space marines are far more than super soldiers. they are an emblem of imperial might. they are a symbol that makes guardsmen fight harder, stops the line from breaking when the hordes of orks, nids chaos (my boys) come crashing forward. the idea of them is far more valuable than the marines themselves.
Therefore, we reached the two main points behind the Adeptus Astartes. Not only are they able to perform things that a regular guardsman is unable to do, but they act as force multipliers when present in any military action.
I think the important point to bear in mind is the disparity between the fluff. Any marine novel clearly demonstrates that marines are so far removed in skill from humanity that they're virtually invincible. Then, if you read Gaunt's Ghosts, the Gereon Kill team kill five of them without losing any of their own number (but about 40 partisans) So it is entirely dependent on who you reference. The quote is something along the lines of 'Give me 100 space marines, and, failing that, 1000 of any other soldier' but it's more of a statement designed to show the worth marines have to the Imperium than a truly objective scale of measurement.
It's what I'm saying. They're worth more than ten, the quote is inaccurate, not designed to truly measure the value of a marine in comparison to a Guardsmen. Quotes are meant to be memorable, if they'd quoted him as saying; In terms of cost-benefit analysis, as well as equipment, ideological strength and physical attributes, give me 100 marines or, failing that, 23,567 guardsmen' it would've sounded stupid. Tl:dr= Marines are worth more than ten guardsmen apiece, it's just a quote. Marines are better than guardsmen in every way, they can withstand both physical and psychological stimuli that normal men can't, they're ideologically some of the soundest beings in the galaxy, have access to better equipment because they're the only ones who can wield it, have specialist formations based around their super human attributes, can, most importantly OUT-THINK most opponents, and, let's be honest, what's more inspiring than a company of genetically altered post human killing machines all wielding automatic missile launchers and chainswords?
Well, skip the novels and go to core fluff: think about a war on the scale of the Armageddon Wars. Millions of soldiers, yet a full SM chapter manages to make a difference?
A good example would also be clearing a space hulk of genesteelers. A full squad of terminators could do it (but would certainly take casualties) but could you imagine even attempting to do it with IG?
I believe in various locations in the fluff the ratio is stated to be 100:1. Also, don't underestimate what a small, compact force of far superior soldiers could do. Perfect example is ship boarding actions. A fortified hallway that could probably hold off indefinitely vs imperial guardsmen could get effortlessly smashed aside by a couple terminators. There are situations where space marines will get the job done whereas it would take battalion after battalion of guardsmen to achieve the same goal. That being said, there is a reason why guardsmen outnumber space marines so vastly.
Its actually so simple, all the people have points but what you need to take into account is that a space marine takes 70 or so years to train.. and Will continue to serve for another 50 - 1000(dante) years.. its something that might last a lot longer than any guardsman... The table top doesnt do them any justice.. and its actually rather sad that Power armor gets killed by lassguns and stuff like that..
IG= Rifleman, Shocktroopers = Army Rangers, SM= Ghost Recon
Lynata wrote: Ahh, so it is you who determines objectivity, then?
No, it's the rules of debating and logic that decide what is objective.
I'm sure everyone in this thread will agree that you are in no way biased towards one faction or the other.
As Void Dragon pointed out, I actually prefer the Guard to Space Marines by a pretty huge margin, and in fact I think Marines are overrated.
Again, *I* point out that we all "cherry-pick fluff" simply because there exists no uniform canon. Do you really want me to quote the people who actually work on this franchise again? It is not you who decides for everyone else how the setting looks like. Deal with it.
Games Workshops canon policy is overwritten by the basic rules of logic and debating. Third time now, if you want to cherry pick fluff, fine. I don't really care. But, your argument becomes meaningless. No point can ever be made objectively if we all ignored what we didn't like.
Even -if- it would work as you say - which it does not - I find the claim that you are aware of any and all details in any and all sources of fluff ever published rather hard to believe. You like Space Marines (or so I assume), so you read Marine novels. And Marines are written epic in there. Who woulda thought. I'm going out on a limb here and assume that you have not, however, read stories like Daemonblood, Daemonifuge, Faith & Fire, Hammer & Anvil, Red & Black? Just a thought, y'know. It's hardly a surprise that your image of Space Marines is somewhat focused on their epic legends when that is 90% of all you've read.
I've read all the Sisters of Battle novels and comics. Still not a single thing mentioned in any of those that would put a Sister on a Marine's level.
Well, apparently GW does not agree with you, be it with fluff sentences like these or the Sisters' Acts of Faith in the tabletop or the Inquisitor RPG. The sentence says "fierce warriors that are equals" to Space Marines, and it presents their faith and devotion as a balance factor set against genetic enhancement. Obviously, this is referring to their willpower and dedication, which can at times have them perform beyond what the average human should be capable of, such as ignoring pain or summoning astounding reserves of strength. We have examples for this in the real world, the Sisters of Battle are just an entire army making use of this "mind over matter" idea. And it seems as if it is this that elevates them just high enough. Of course you can simply ignore that line about the "being equals".* As I said, we are all cherry-picking, and this is only a single line from GW which is surely conflicted by lots of Black Library novels from some freelance authors.
I have no doubt that they're superb warriors; stronger than what you would find in the Guard, sure.
But again, this really doesn't say anything about their martial prowess compared to Space Marines.
It seems there is really no point in discussing it further - you have your interpretation of the 41st millennium, born chiefly from various novels, and I have mine from GW's own books.
My interpretations are from everything, GW sources included, thus why my argument is more credible. Even taking GW sources into account, there is nothing, as you admitted to Void Dragon above, that shows them as being on par with Space Marines in a combat scenario.
In regards to the OP, in my interpretation of the fluff, there is no point to them. They're a huge waste of resources, and there are nowhere near enough of them to make any impact. But, you know, the Imperium.
IMO the Astartes are also there to provide a symbol of the sheer power of the Imperium's military. The do in the fluff , almost without exception have a semi-mythical status in the Imperium. The question maybe should be - do they work for the fluff of the 40K Universe - which they do.
They also give the Dark Eldar something they see as an actual challenge in a fight
re the Sisters/Marines debate.
For me the "ranking" is a bit like this (for straight fire fights and similar not being sneaky )
The big edges the SOB have over regular and even elite IG troops in a straight firefight are the power armour and boltgun, both of which they are effectively trained to use. They have their Faith which is also a big plus but not as much in straight combat.
IMO Where they loose out to the Astartes is in strength, durability and speed of reactions.
Where both shine strongly is what their presence means to the other Imperial forces - they are both seen as powerful sybols of the Emperors will and might and that perhaps His eye may be upon the field.
Now they are often used as punching bags in BL fiction, for some unknown reason. However in terms of direct combat effectiveness this can be seen in several non Sisters novels:
Legion of the Damned – they prove highly effective, respected and worthy “battle brothers” to the Space Marines during the increasingly doomed last stand.
Spoiler:
although they don't all die...........
The Cain novels – again I am just talking about combat effectiveness – despite the Commissars feelings towards them they are extremely potent warriors, whose very presence inspires the other Imperials – including long time Guard Veterans. They have mixed fates in these novels – some die, some don’t
Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Well I have take some free time and post this question of Facebook and these are the answers: [...]
I have no idea to whose Facebook page you posted this, but those answers are full of contradictions to GW's position on the subject. I admit, I stopped reading at the claim that Space Marines are supposedly immune to death by natural cause.
Who did you talk to there, some novel writer?
BlaxicanX wrote:Games Workshops canon policy is overwritten by the basic rules of logic and debating.
lol - okay. Rules you made up yourself, but I spent too much time on that already.
Let's just finish the debate with the understanding that neither of us is "wrong" (as per Gav Thorpe's explanation) in their own perception, because we both "live in different worlds" when it comes to 40k fluff.
BlaxicanX wrote:I've read all the Sisters of Battle novels and comics. Still not a single thing mentioned in any of those that would put a Sister on a Marine's level.
What's wrong with Aescarion?
Mr Morden wrote:They have their Faith which is also a big plus but not as much in straight combat.
Hmm, I would say their faith is important in straight battle, too. It solidifies their morale and, in addition to this, enables them to (at least at times) go beyond what a human being would normally be capable to do. The role of psychology in sports and warfare is still being investigated by science, but few people doubt that the mind has no effect whatsoever on body performance. Here's just one random article from the internets: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/01/mind-over-matter.html
Mr Morden wrote:Now they are often used as punching bags in BL fiction, for some unknown reason.
I guess most often it is because a writer wants an elite Imperial force to get slaughtered (better equipped and trained than IG to make them and whoever kills them appear more dangerous), and using Space Marines may trigger an adverse reaction from the readers. SoB are not a popular army, so they're an ideal "punching bag".
Other writers may also simply not like the army on principle. Most if not all BL authors are also 40k fans themselves, which likely makes many of them Space Marine fans (considering that SMare the most popular army). From experience, I would say that many - not all! - Space Marine fans dislike Sisters of Battle because they may feel the Sororitas are "encroaching on their territory", be it with the badass level or their equipment, not to mention their occasional role as Marine hunters. Some may even just dislike them because they dislike the Ecclesiarchy. Once I even noticed blatant sexism (not on dakka, but on another forum).
I think the best way to sum up 40k lore and interpertation is...
everyone has his/her/its own strong views, and the "official stance" is they have no "official stance"
And as to the BL writers using SoB or other elite forces as sacrificial lambs to show how BA the SM are..well that just fuels the continuing slide to mary sueness of them..
this debate is actually making me want to start a SoB army now, so tired of the SM fan fanatics.
Lynata wrote: lol - okay. Rules you made up yourself, but I spent too much time on that already.
Let's just finish the debate with the understanding that neither of us is "wrong" (as per Gav Thorpe's explanation) in their own perception, because we both "live in different worlds" when it comes to 40k fluff.
You're entitled to your opinion. The argument you've presented thus far has been pretty weak, though.
Lynata wrote: I have no idea to whose Facebook page you posted this, but those answers are full of contradictions to GW's position on the subject. I admit, I stopped reading at the claim that Space Marines are supposedly immune to death by natural cause.
I posted this in four Facebook Warhammer 40k groups, and these are only the most interesting answers. Point is that majority don't see Astartes as waste of resources but true might of Imperial and Mankind Military force.
The true might of humanity armed forces is the Guard.
This really is it, the overwhelmingly vast majority if the Imperium's wars never see a single Space Marine, and yet the Imperium endures. The SM's matter because they're forced to matter, militarily, even accounting for their speed and power armor and all that, they're total might that takes centuries to build for each chapter, is roughly equivalent to a few hours of recruiting for the IG/IN. The SM's matter mainly just because GW says so and that's about it.
We all know that brother Bobthehero, but as it was stated before no matter how powerful the Guard is there are some enemies that they simply cannot defeat because they are wide stretched across the galaxy. Guard is powerful but Astartes stand as true might of Mankind as they themselves are Mankind's ultimate weapons against it's enemies. In some wars simple companies of marines did what entire army groups of the Guard couldn't. And that is where the real vale is.
Just two examples from fluff: Siege of Vraks - no matter how hard Krieg tried to break heretic lines they have to request Astartes help in the end so that they could breach enemy defenses and close the breach around main city ( Chapters involved were Red Scorpions and Dark Angels ). Armageddon 1'st War - Angron attacked the planet with army of Berzerkers and Emperor knows how many traitors. Space Wolves and later Grey Knights helped and the day was won. Space Wolves involved because only they could effectively stop attacks from Khorne Berzerkers and Daemons and later Grey Knights arrived because only they have the power to defeat Daemon army and Daemon Primarch ( and one of the strongest ones I might add ).
But seriously tis thread is getting ridiculous, asking why Astartes are important for the Imperium is like asking why Inquisition is important for the Imperium. They all have their roles and they both use most effective way to lose several million less Guardsmen so that they can be used on other places that are in need of assistance.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I know a lot of 40K background, and as I studied different sources I have noted one thing.
Using Space Marines is foolish.
Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle. He needs high-quality training, extremely expensive armor and weapons, and simply consumes a ton of resources.
And yet, look at the losses that the marines take. I am not only talking about the tabletop game itself (where casualties are ludicrous) but I am also talking about the books, for example. My conclusion is that they are so extremely resource-inefficient so that they should have stopped using them long ago. Ten guardsmen is seemingly, according to a quote (Imperial Fists Primarch, I believe, but I am no certain) equivalent to one Space Marine. However, if we look at the cost in time and resources, we are looking at Space Marines consuming a hundred, if not a thousand times the resources a guardsman do, if you count everything in. While I am sure Space Marines have their uses; sudden overwhelming spear-point assaults, for example- surely it is not worth such a cost?
How is their use justified?
Eh, I could Agree.. BUT i do think that Space Marine should still be in use, although not nearly as many chapters. I would like to say that about 10, good chapers of marines is about all you need. The best use I could say with marines would honestly be if the Imperial Guard used them much like the UNSC uses SPARTAN II's in Halo. Assigning a marine or a few or maybe even a squad to help out(Or in same drastic cases lead) a spearhead or special operation needed for victory. despite all the brotherhood marines have, I belive they are best used in conjunction with the Imperial army and divide equally throughout a force. I also think that a whole BATTLE COMPANY or ARMY of marines is only ever used when it is REALLY NEEDED. Think about it for a second. All the times that a bunch of companies were dispatched to face a force, it was apart of some big war or crusade. on that note Crusading chapters and as i said about equal divion of marines in Imperial forces are the most cost-effective uses of marines.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: We all know that brother Bobthehero, but as it was stated before no matter how powerful the Guard is there are some enemies that they simply cannot defeat because they are wide stretched across the galaxy.
Except that the SM's are practically nowhere and the IG is everywhere, and can concentrate *way* more force and firepower when they want to.
Guard is powerful but Astartes stand as true might of Mankind as they themselves are Mankind's ultimate weapons against it's enemies.
Um...how so?
In some wars simple companies of marines did what entire army groups of the Guard couldn't. And that is where the real vale is.
Which usually either boils down to a completely incompetent commander for plots sake on the IG side, or amounts to a hyperbolic "space marines are immune to all attacks and never die and win!" on the SM side. Most fluff like that amounts to bolter porn, Brotherhood of the Snake being an excellent example.
It also usually involved enemies that for some inexplicable reason are entirely incapable of maneuver, as marine forces tend to be very small and thus extremely susceptible to being encircled, cut off, and pounded to destruction by artillery or simply waited out.
Just two examples from fluff:
Siege of Vraks - no matter how hard Krieg tried to break heretic lines they have to request Astartes help in the end so that they could breach enemy defenses and close the breach around main city ( Chapters involved were Red Scorpions and Dark Angels ).
The SM's refused to engage heretics in the beginning, they wouldn't go in until the IG had already landed and been at war for years.
With regards to the spaceport, the IG simply weren't allocated the resources to engage the spaceport that the DA's attacked. Even then, the DA's left behind like a third of the chapter as dead on Vraks in a single engagemen. At that rate there's no way they'd be combat effective more than once a century at best unless they drove themselves to extinction, which would have occurred long ago.
The Red Scorpions simply held a breach that was already forced in the wall so the IG reinforcements could get into position to secure it. Valuable yes, but these aren't things the guard are entirely incapable of and aren't actions the SM's could sustain more than once every few decades or they'd be destroyed at the rate it takes to train new recruits.
For the resources used in creating and maintaining such SM chapters just for such engagements that'd be needed far more often than once every few decades, they could have thousands of more IG regiments instead that could have aided in accomplishing those goals and more ;P
Armageddon 1'st War - Angron attacked the planet with army of Berzerkers and Emperor knows how many traitors. Space Wolves and later Grey Knights helped and the day was won.
With millions upon millions of Imperial Guard and PDF soldiers doing most of the fighting
Space Wolves involved because only they could effectively stop attacks from Khorne Berzerkers and Daemons and later Grey Knights arrived because only they have the power to defeat Daemon army and Daemon Primarch ( and one of the strongest ones I might add ).
The GK's are a bit different than standard marines, having specialized tools and knowlege to defeat things that are otherwise largely immune to simple violence, like daemonically enhanced Primarchs.
But seriously tis thread is getting ridiculous, asking why Astartes are important for the Imperium is like asking why Inquisition is important for the Imperium. They all have their roles and they both use most effective way to lose several million less Guardsmen so that they can be used on other places that are in need of assistance.
the issue is that the SM's are too few to have the effect they'd be described as having, and those same resources could go to creating and maintaining far larger forces of IG units that would be of even more value, especially as they don't take decades to build and train.
This is not who is better: Space Marines or Imperial Guard thread - but are the Astartes needed at all to the Imperium.
Guard is powerful but numbers are useless in some battles, sure the Guard is holding the line but who is coming to help them when they are about to get overwhelmed or destroyed?
Guard is Shield and Hammer, Astartes are wrath and Sword and they both do their part for the Emperor.
Void__Dragon wrote: That's more or less true, yeah. Air control is probably the most vital part of combat in 40k.
I agree. And without starting some debate thing, Think about it this way: If a country didn't have a good navy, how could they possibly stop pirates, smuggling or, god forbid this but, an attack on soil? the sea ain't all that different from space. a planet is land.. but all do have their uses, the Imperium, by this point pretty much needs all that they can get, even if they could have thrived without it before. The Imperuim is slowly crumbling after all.
Vaktathi wrote: the issue is that the SM's are too few to have the effect they'd be described as having, and those same resources could go to creating and maintaining far larger forces of IG units that would be of even more value, especially as they don't take decades to build and train.
Please stop I will die of laughter... All that Guard that can be trained from 1.000.000 Astartes cannot stop some of the most dire treats to the Imperium.
1/3 of them can be converted to Chaos while traitor Legions with their Daemon Primarchs and Daemonic army's finish off the rest in bloodbath.
They would be useless against large Tyranid incursions or Necron uprising, the Orks would overwhelm them if they gather large enough WARGHHH.
In shortm wit honly IG the Imeprium deathrate would rise and they woudl start losing more Guard Regiment than they woudl be able to train and transport. That woudl lower the moral all across the Imperium and many planets would leave from Imperium.
Astartes win those battles that would otherwise tight more Guard or destroy more Guard that could be used elsewhere.
Vaktathi wrote: the issue is that the SM's are too few to have the effect they'd be described as having, and those same resources could go to creating and maintaining far larger forces of IG units that would be of even more value, especially as they don't take decades to build and train.
Please stop I will die of laughter... All that Guard that can be trained from 1.000.000 Astartes cannot stop some of the most dire treats to the Imperium. 1/3 of them can be converted to Chaos while traitor Legions with their Daemon Primarchs and Daemonic army's finish off the rest in bloodbath.
They would be useless against large Tyranid incursions or Necron uprising, the Orks would overwhelm them if they gather large enough WARGHHH. In shortm wit honly IG the Imeprium deathrate would rise and they woudl start losing more Guard Regiment than they woudl be able to train and transport. That woudl lower the moral all across the Imperium and many planets would leave from Imperium.
Astartes win those battles that would otherwise tight more Guard or destroy more Guard that could be used elsewhere.
Well, I dunno.. I always viewed it as Imperial Guard is the Hammer and Space Marines as the shield.
And I can't say that Space Marines are THAT good. Now, keep in mind , I LOVE Space Marines to death, but even I accept that their numbers are too little to tackle on anything. with all that ''We need both IG and SM'' aside, Marines are amazing, but even a marine could be taken down as fast as a guardsmen.
And give the guardsment a break, bro. Saying a Guarmsen's life span is that short is like saying they are trained like ideots.. Guardsmen are just like modern-day soldiers, they are not stupid.
Too many times are people always viewing Guardsmen as bad because they only ever compare things to marines.
Well, I dunno.. I always viewed it as Imperial Guard is the Hammer and Space Marines as the shield.
And I can't say that Space Marines are THAT good. Now, keep in mind , I LOVE Space Marines to death, but even I accept that their numbers are too little to tackle on anything. with all that ''We need both IG and SM'' aside, Marines are amazing, but even a marine could be taken down as fast as a guardsmen.
And give the guardsment a break, bro. Saying a Guarmsen's life span is that short is like saying they are trained like ideots.. Guardsmen are just like modern-day soldiers, they are not stupid.
Too many times are people always viewing Guardsmen as bad because they only ever compare things to marines.
I didn't mean to disrespect I just gave the facts.
Marines cannot be shield, they don't hold the line - Guard is the one who is holding the line.
Every Guardsmen is a professional solder that would make our NAVY SEALS and SAS look like noobs, but they live in universe where their rifle that can punch trough solid concrete cannot kill Ork from several shots. And even if they are professional solders they die in millions and are used as meat shields by their commanders. Grimdark is it not...?
And of course, Mariens are in every aspect better than Guardsmen. But they need Guard to hold the line and do the actual fight while Marines flank the enemy, help the Guardsmen break the heavily defended line, destroy enemy supplies and eliminate enemy commanders.
Marines win battles while Guard win wars, it has been that since the times of Great Crusade and it contained to the 41'st millennium. And it will last many more millenniums.. One simple cannot go without another, and suggstin otherwise is simply foolish. Imperium is like a fragile body with all it's organization making it whole, take one out and the others soon fall with it.
Bobthehero wrote: And half the SM will be turn to chaos as well. weeeeeeeeeeeee equality!
Yeah, that will be a little hard with all the prayers and Chaplain and Inquisitors... and not to mention mental protection against corruption that the average Guardsmen lacks...
This is not who is better: Space Marines or Imperial Guard thread - but are the Astartes needed at all to the Imperium.
Right...and ultimately, they're too few in number and too often they win literally "just because". Their power level, role, capabilities and feats are all extremely dependent on author, and ultimately, from a realistic perspective, they aren't needed, because they're already so rare as to never be available in 99% of conflicts or more, and quickly exhausted and destroyed even when they are.
Guard is powerful but numbers are useless in some battles, sure the Guard is holding the line but who is coming to help them when they are about to get overwhelmed or destroyed?
The Stormtrooper corps and their numerous equivalents such as the Kasrkin, the billions of other IG regiments out there, the Imperial Navy, etc.
Guard is Shield and Hammer, Astartes are wrath and Sword and they both do their part for the Emperor.
Again, the issue is, back to the OP's original question, are the SM's really needed? In their given numbers, they're simply too rare to realistically have any major effect on the galactic stage. They may save a battle here, hold a line there, but ultimately from a strategic perspective they're irrelevant because they're effectively never around, when they are their availability is not reliable and their actions uncontrollable, and they're so few and so quickly exhausted as a military resource.
They only reason they're needed is as a plot device to build a Fantasy narrative around, nothing more.
Well, I dunno.. I always viewed it as Imperial Guard is the Hammer and Space Marines as the shield.
And I can't say that Space Marines are THAT good. Now, keep in mind , I LOVE Space Marines to death, but even I accept that their numbers are too little to tackle on anything. with all that ''We need both IG and SM'' aside, Marines are amazing, but even a marine could be taken down as fast as a guardsmen.
And give the guardsment a break, bro. Saying a Guarmsen's life span is that short is like saying they are trained like ideots.. Guardsmen are just like modern-day soldiers, they are not stupid.
Too many times are people always viewing Guardsmen as bad because they only ever compare things to marines.
I didn't mean to disrespect I just gave the facts.
Marines cannot be shield, they don't hold the line - Guard is the one who is holding the line.
Every Guardsmen is a professional solder that would make our NAVY SEALS and SAS look like noobs, but they live in universe where their rifle that can punch trough solid concrete cannot kill Ork from several shots. And even if they are professional solders they die in millions and are used as meat shields by their commanders. Grimdark is it not...?
And of course, Mariens are in every aspect better than Guardsmen. But they need Guard to hold the line and do the actual fight while Marines flank the enemy, help the Guardsmen break the heavily defended line, destroy enemy supplies and eliminate enemy commanders.
Marines win battles while Guard win wars, it has been that since the times of Great Crusade and it contained to the 41'st millennium. And it will last many more millenniums.. One simple cannot go without another, and suggstin otherwise is simply foolish. Imperium is like a fragile body with all it's organization making it whole, take one out and the others soon fall with it.
Hehe, there was no disrespect.
I completely agree with you in all accounts. Although I'm not talking about what the guard literally do in battle (hold the line and whatnot) but that they are the hammer in the respect of an unstoppable, hard hitting and overwhelming force.
Marines are the same kind of thing, but much, much more precise and to the point. Marines are more like the guys to go kill the enemy leader and place bombs in enemy naval ships orbiting a world, while the Navy fights them and the Guard goes all out on the main front.
I just still think marines are kinda given too much praise... I'm not, in any way, the kind of person to point out those ugly truths about how GW likes to make there poster boys the best, but I still like to think marines are not as nigh-unstoppable as they are made out to be.. I may be a bit of a nostalgia-freak when i say this, but I just like the Rogue Trader days of Marines being more.. human?
And @ Vaktathi: I see marines as always doing the things no end ever sees, not that they are too rare.. like i said, they do the super important, suicidal and crazy jobs a normal man normally would fall short... not all of them have to be headlong in a battle. Which is why they are worth the money they put into them.
Bobthehero wrote: And half the SM will be turn to chaos as well. weeeeeeeeeeeee equality!
Yeah, that will be a little hard with all the prayers and Chaplain and Inquisitors... and not to mention mental protection against corruption that the average Guardsmen lacks...
The Guard can get checked up by the Inquisition, they have Priests and Commissar too!
BlaxicanX wrote:You're entitled to your opinion. The argument you've presented thus far has been pretty weak, though.
Well, same to you. Glad we cleared the air though.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I posted this in four Facebook Warhammer 40k groups, and these are only the most interesting answers. Point is that majority don't see Astartes as waste of resources but true might of Imperial and Mankind Military force.
The most interesting answers - as per your own personal selection? Okay, that's not entirely fair. As Gav Thorpe once said, 40k "exists as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers", so all of those answers are probably entirely correct in whatever reality these players have focused on. I don't know, maybe (probably) there even is some novel that contradicts Games Workshop about how long Space Marines live before they die from natural causes, for example! As I said, we're all cherry-picking, even if we do not realise it.
Anyhow, are the Space Marines a waste of resources? Debatable. Someone else described them as a "force multiplier", and in that they certainly have value. Sometimes it's just more efficient to use small elite forces rather than huge armies. After all, would anybody think that the SEALs, the SAS, Spetsnaz are a waste of resources? Or in terms of 40k, does anyone think so of the Storm Trooper regiment? I doubt it.
At the same time, however, describing any of these forces as the "true might of the military" is just ridiculous fanwankery. Even when we discard the obvious gap between GW's vision and the various licensed products depicting a different version of Marines, there's a balance to be found between seeing something as worthless and the mind-boggling exaggeration of hero levels that is going on. That's what I'm advocating, and I am sorry to see that some fans of the various armies are apparently unable to see the bigger picture simply because they're stuck gazing at whatever they adore and read about all the time. This does not go solely for some (not all!) Marine fans but for Sisters fans as well. Not calling names. The latter are probably just less numerous because the army has fewer players in general, and because they have not been spoiled by constant attention in the form of novels, video games and even movies hyping the protagonist into the sky.
DarthMarko wrote:sorry @Lynata but let's be realistic and view the universe from a ugly consumer view....
I'm vieweing what Games Workshop presents me with.
I am not doubting that certain outsourced publications may present a very different image in the hopes of attracting more customers. After all, what does author X care if only Space Marine fans buy his book? That's the most populous segment of the fanbase! But why should I care about author X's books when he does not care about GW?
And at the end of the day, GW doesn't care about that either. They have their own playground - which caters to all the factions. Perhaps not equally in quantity, but in content compatibility. Ultimately, any universe, fictional or no, does not revolve solely around one specific group of people, and this includes Space Marines in 40k (even though for some fans that may be the case). The designers took great care to make sure that each faction has a role to play somewhere; a role beyond "supporting cast" in some Marine novel or computer game that, unlike the tabletop as a whole, focuses chiefly on how awesome and manly the Astartes are and how much better they are than anyone else, killing thousands of enemies on a single day, each, blindfolded and with one hand tied to their back.
I guess what I'm trying to say is ... would you rather have a setting that works because everything ties together as it does in real life? Or are you content with said setting just being a stage for your few heroes to dominate, like in some cliché-ridden superhero comic?
space marines exist because there the only scince fiction the IoM has. The Gaurd is just WW2 allied army on steriods. Clunky oversized tanks, rifle armed infantry & commisars...just early 20th century gear. The only slightly advanced tech is the odd cybernetic & the new vendettas.
Lynata, you have to realise that despite whatever inconsistencies are in the Black Library novels, said novels are of far superior quality when compared to GW fluff.
Void__Dragon wrote:Lynata, you have to realise that despite whatever inconsistencies are in the Black Library novels, said novels are of far superior quality when compared to GW fluff.
Because you, personally, like them more?
From how it looks to me, there is some sort of penis contest going on between some authors about who writes the most awesome Space Marines, starting with what Jes Goodwin joked about when he said that SM seem to "get bigger with every book". I just can't get behind that. To me, characters require not only strengths but flaws, and have to be vulnerable. I only ever perceive this in GW's own material. Some people like Astartes more when they're written like some sort of living god of war, striding across the battlefield and swatting enemies left and right. "More power to them", I say. To me, this sort of power fantasy just does not appear very compelling. It's Superman 10-cent-comic niveau, whereas I am simply looking for a grimdark setting with a somewhat more realistic touch to it.
What you have to realise is that the constant preaching of Space Marine fans about how this and that is superior and how their books are so much better written and how GW doesn't know gak about Astartes (lulz) just comes across as incredibly ignorant.
Have fun in your world, I'll stick to what I grew up with. Imho, we should all be able to get along just fine, as long as we do not attempt to force our personal preferences onto other people. Some just don't like Space Marines as much. And some are even pushed away from them by the behaviour of some of their fans.
Void__Dragon wrote:Lynata, you have to realise that despite whatever inconsistencies are in the Black Library novels, said novels are of far superior quality when compared to GW fluff.
Because you, personally, like them more?
From how it looks to me, there is some sort of penis contest going on between some authors about who writes the most awesome Space Marines, starting with what Jes Goodwin joked about when he said that SM seem to "get bigger with every book". I just can't get behind that. To me, characters require not only strengths but flaws, and have to be vulnerable. I only ever perceive this in GW's own material. Some people like Astartes more when they're written like some sort of living god of war, striding across the battlefield and swatting enemies left and right. "More power to them", I say. To me, this sort of power fantasy just does not appear very compelling. It's Superman 10-cent-comic niveau, whereas I am simply looking for a grimdark setting with a somewhat more realistic touch to it.
What you have to realise is that the constant preaching of Space Marine fans about how this and that is superior and how their books are so much better written and how GW doesn't know gak about Astartes (lulz) just comes across as incredibly ignorant.
Have fun in your world, I'll stick to what I grew up with. Imho, we should all be able to get along just fine, as long as we do not attempt to force our personal preferences onto other people. Some just don't like Space Marines as much. And some are even pushed away from them by the behaviour of some of their fans.
I do agree with you...some books are far worse then fluff. and most commented threads are " who has the biggest penis " but don't get offended , you love sob and the "I" - so that puts a little shade on your objectivity towards the SM (friendly jest).....
And I'm gonna be blunt - things are what they are and I don't see improvment in the future..We are grown ups and I tend to discard "over the top fluff " which comes mosltly from Ward (Draigo,Calgar Smurfgar+ newer BA and SW codex ) and some BL authors...
In the 40k world of fluff writing, I have found that the best, and most consistant Fluff I have read is in the FW sourcebooks and campaign descriptions, they usually show both sides at a realistic veiw, with little hyperbole, at least so far as I have read in the 7-8 volumes I have purchased.
Both sides win some and lose some, and their writing of Xenos has been the best in the setting..even letting them occasionally get the best of the glory boys
BL and the GW codexs....hmmm sometimes I feel like they were dictated by a 12year old on ridalen, a company of marines securing a sector of space..100 guys with no mention of the support personel or anything.
Lynata wrote: Because you, personally, like them more?
No, in an objective sense. The prose, the characters, the plotting, etc etc.
From how it looks to me, there is some sort of penis contest going on between some authors about who writes the most awesome Space Marines, starting with what Jes Goodwin joked about when he said that SM seem to "get bigger with every book".
If GW would make the height of Marines more explicit, say, maybe in their own codex, maybe there wouldn't be this much confusion?
I just can't get behind that. To me, characters require not only strengths but flaws, and have to be vulnerable. I only ever perceive this in GW's own material.
Right, guys like Sly Marbo, a Rambo among Rambos, or Marneus Calgar, who is described as the perfectly perfect Chapter Master of the perfectly perfect Ultramarines chapter.
Or Kaldor Draigo, who speaks for himself. I can really see the flaws and vulnerabilities in his character.
But of course I am only speaking of the nadirs of the official material (Well, Calgar isn't really all that bad, if only in comparison).
I am being sarcastic of course. If you want actual flawed, multi-dimensional characters, BL features more and better ones. Argel Tal (Of The First Heretic), Ahzek Ahriman and Magnus the Red's portrayal in A Thousand Sons, Horus in Horus Rising (Easily had the most sympathetic and relateable depiction of Horus), Gregor Eisenhorn (I am sure you know of him, but his struggle to maintain his puritanical outlook when faced with the realities of the galaxy until he is forced to make compromises is an excellent read), and really... Who cares if there is a Servitor Navigator (Which isn't true by the way, yet despite the fact that I have corrected you on this, you continue to cite it as an example), when the quality of the work itself is good?
Oh, and ftr, GW does contradict itself. In one edition alone (4e), in the Orks codex, Belial was said to be First Captain of the Deathwing when Ghazghkuull laid him low. In the Dark Angels codex, he was still captain of the eighth company at the time.
This isn't even bringing up huge-scale retcons like the fifth edition Necron codex. But because GW did it, a huge contradiction like that is fine, right?
Some people like Astartes more when they're written like some sort of living god of war, striding across the battlefield and swatting enemies left and right. "More power to them", I say. To me, this sort of power fantasy just does not appear very compelling. It's Superman 10-cent-comic niveau, whereas I am simply looking for a grimdark setting with a somewhat more realistic touch to it.
That's all cool I guess.
It's a bit strange though, how you seem to desire a realistic 40k, when frankly I am not sure such a thing even exists. Most editions have either been fantasy settings with a soaring operatic darkness to them, or have been so soul-crushingly grimdark (Think 3e) that it could not even be called vaguely realistic. And of course, it started as a parody.
What you have to realise is that the constant preaching of Space Marine fans about how this and that is superior and how their books are so much better written and how GW doesn't know gak about Astartes (lulz) just comes across as incredibly ignorant.
Nowhere did I mention Astartes in my posts, nor that GW doesn't know gak about them. You are once again making an assumption about someone without any evidence to support it. Either that or you are going off on an irrelevant tangent.
I didn't say Space Marine books are superior. I said Black Library is better written than official GW licensed material. And it is.
Have fun in your world, I'll stick to what I grew up with. Imho, we should all be able to get along just fine, as long as we do not attempt to force our personal preferences onto other people. Some just don't like Space Marines as much. And some are even pushed away from them by the behaviour of some of their fans.
What does that have to do with what I said though?
I was applying a fair amount of hyperbole, in that both GW fluff and BL fluff can vary in quality.
But the best of BL has the better prose, as well as more developed and interesting characters. GW lays the foundation for BL to take what is there and make it great (Fantasy Flight Games is also good for this, it can make even my least favorite additions or retcons from GW and make them good). Forge World I have admittedly read comparitively less on. Dan Abnett, Graham McNeil, Aaron Dembski-Bowden, probably the three best BL writers I can think of, are all better with the fluff than Cruddace, Kelly (Who is probably the best but still admittedly varies, ala Spehss Wolves), and, of course, Ward. Frankly, CS Goto, commonly thought of as BL's worst (Probably unfairly but hey), is a better writer than Ward. You could take issue with the inaccuracies and subject matter, sure, but as a writer? No contest.
Anyway, I've dragged this thread way more off-topic than it needed to go, but I just don't see why you both constantly bring up GW's apparent policy on canon, while at the same time disregarding and looking down upon fluff from novels.
So what if a BL book has better prose? Still doesn't make it a good book, or a reliable source of information about the galaxy.
Ciaphas Cain is very well written and has an interesting style, but it's by no means very good at capturing either hte overall feel of 40k, nor is it very good at keeping with the lore.
or a reliable source of information about the galaxy.
Ciaphas Cain is very well written and has an interesting style, but it's by no means very good at capturing either hte overall feel of 40k, nor is it very good at keeping with the lore.
Oh hey look a bunch of stuff I never claimed.
Neither is the Grey Knights codex, but hey, since it is by GW, it must be super representative of 40k, right? Same with the Space Wolves codex, huh?
Note: I know that you don't personally believe this, as I recall you stating before that codex fluff can be just as stupid and ill-fitting earlier in this very thread, but this is more for the benefit of others. And by others, I mean Lynata.
Ftr, I've never read Ciaphas Cain, so can't comment on it. I know that apparently Sisters of Battle are hard-drinking and not celibate in it (Based on some gak I've read on TV Tropes or in posts by Lynata), which is I admit goofy. But no more than say, Harker strangling a Ravener with nothing more than his biceps.
Still does not make it a good source of information. Romance of the Three Kingdoms was a great read, but it still wasn't historically accurate-- having, as it did, a heavy bias towards Liu Bei and his allies.
My point is, something can be poorly written but still a good source of information, while something can be well written but still a bad source of information. How well written it is is irrelevant to its use as a source of information unless it's written so badly you can't actually understand it, and no BL books are THAT bad (at least, not that bad all the time).
BL books are inconsistent with the rest of the lore, so I tend to pass them off as semi-truths instead of full truths. I believe a GW bigwig once stated something to the effect of BL books being like propaganda-- and I tend to agree. Imperial Guard books show the Imperial Guard as supremely competent (usually). Space Marine books show Space Marines as supremely competent (usually). And so on. It's to be expected that the protagonist is aggrandized, while any antagonists arenot.
See, but I never said that BL books are necessarily a good source of information (Though most I have read only have minor inaccuracies that aren't worth the bitching, IMHO).
Compared to, say, the newcron codex, which futures a race of metal men with feelings that can't even be recognised as the legion as implacable as death itself that they were.
Thank God for Tome of Fate. Leave it to FFG to take in aspects of both the old and the new fluff, and make them both complement eachother seamlessly, improving both.
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Melissia wrote: My point is, something can be poorly written but still a good source of information, while something can be well written but still a bad source of information. How well written it is is irrelevant to its use as a source of information unless it's written so badly you can't actually understand it, and no BL books are THAT bad (at least, not that bad all the time).
BL books are inconsistent with the rest of the lore, so I tend to pass them off as semi-truths instead of full truths. I believe a GW bigwig once stated something to the effect of BL books being like propaganda.
That's a sweeping general statement that can't be proven, IMHO.
At the moment, not much of anything. I'm just being ornery and arguing against an idea you posted (that BL books are somehow better canon if they're well written / if you like them), even if the idea wasn't the intent behind your post.
Also, I think it's impossible to truly objectively judge BL books, so I completely disagree with that assertion anyway
That's fair enough. I was mostly just being a jerk to compensate for my own shortcomings.
I don't really see a lot of the inaccuracies that people talk about, honestly (Well, I've also never read CS Goto or Ciaphas Cain, which to my understanding are the biggest offenders).
I would like to think that an objective comparison could be made betwee, say, Prospero Burns and the Space Wolf codex, or The Emperor's Gift and the Grey Knights codex.
Void__Dragon wrote:Lynata, you have to realise that despite whatever inconsistencies are in the Black Library novels, said novels are of far superior quality when compared to GW fluff.
Because you, personally, like them more?
From how it looks to me, there is some sort of penis contest going on between some authors about who writes the most awesome Space Marines, starting with what Jes Goodwin joked about when he said that SM seem to "get bigger with every book". I just can't get behind that. To me, characters require not only strengths but flaws, and have to be vulnerable. I only ever perceive this in GW's own material. Some people like Astartes more when they're written like some sort of living god of war, striding across the battlefield and swatting enemies left and right. "More power to them", I say. To me, this sort of power fantasy just does not appear very compelling. It's Superman 10-cent-comic niveau, whereas I am simply looking for a grimdark setting with a somewhat more realistic touch to it.
This is a pretty crazy statement. GW writes every Space Marine character almost flawless, particularly the Ultramarines and Grey Knights ones. BL is the first area I've seen that actually gave flaws to Grey Knights.
Void__Dragon wrote: That's fair enough. I was mostly just being a jerk to compensate for my own shortcomings.
I don't really see a lot of the inaccuracies that people talk about, honestly (Well, I've also never read CS Goto or Ciaphas Cain, which to my understanding are the biggest offenders).
I would like to think that an objective comparison could be made betwee, say, Prospero Burns and the Space Wolf codex
Why those two?
A better comparison would be between A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.
Two tellings of the same story-- from different perspectives.
Blobpie wrote:The space marines play a role that no ordinary human can ever be; Shock Troops. Or more specifically, incredibly reliable and swift shock troops.
Yes, because no humans have ever performed that role...
Not nearly as well; a space marine is stronger, faster, tougher, smarter and better equipped than a ordinary human ever could be.
Space marines exist for one reason, to win battles that the guard can never win. Such as Ichar IV for example.
Yeah, there is absolutely nothing about the process of becoming a Space Marine that makes one any more intelligent than they were before, and intelligence isn't necessarily something looked for in aspirants either.
So Space Marines being "Smarter" is rather silly.
Individually they are better equipped, but the Space Marines as a whole are both incredibly small forces (and as such highly vulnerable to encirclement and destruction) and lack critical battlefield capabilities both in space and on the ground.
Their starships generally are actually rather gimped when it comes to Naval gunbattles (intentionally so following the Horus Heresy), IN ships are generally bigger/tougher with longer ranged guns and SM fleets typically lack Nova cannon and Lance weaponry altogether.
When it comes to planet-bound combat they lack a true heavy tank and make do with up-armored APC's (predators) or over-armored assault transports (Land Raiders) and suffer from a severe lack of artillery weapons (which, historically, have by far been the biggest battlefield killers) besides short ranged snub-nosed assault guns (Vindicators) and relatively mono-role and weak Whirlwind batteries to engage light infantry, to say nothing of the fact that they're almost completely hosed against an enemy with even a not-so-substantial air force as they lack large numbers of AA weapons and Thunderhawks aren't going to win battles with fighter aircraft.
Ciaphas Cain is very well written and has an interesting style, but it's by no means very good at capturing either hte overall feel of 40k, nor is it very good at keeping with the lore.
Not when you realize that Cain is out in the frontier - naturally, instead of an empire, the Imperium would be closer to a federation out there. Heck, even the Rogue Trader RPG rulebook even mentions that the further away from Terra the Imperial world is, the more divergent or 'loose' its culture is.
or a reliable source of information about the galaxy.
Ciaphas Cain is very well written and has an interesting style, but it's by no means very good at capturing either hte overall feel of 40k, nor is it very good at keeping with the lore.
Oh hey look a bunch of stuff I never claimed.
Neither is the Grey Knights codex, but hey, since it is by GW, it must be super representative of 40k, right? Same with the Space Wolves codex, huh?
Note: I know that you don't personally believe this, as I recall you stating before that codex fluff can be just as stupid and ill-fitting earlier in this very thread, but this is more for the benefit of others. And by others, I mean Lynata.
Ftr, I've never read Ciaphas Cain, so can't comment on it. I know that apparently Sisters of Battle are hard-drinking and not celibate in it (Based on some gak I've read on TV Tropes or in posts by Lynata), which is I admit goofy. But no more than say, Harker strangling a Ravener with nothing more than his biceps.
I tend to go along with alot of Void Dragon says here in terms of the quality of the writing - the BL novels, by their very nature tend to have actual rounded characters which is not possible to do in a Codex - although frankly often they don't try. I do prefer the write ups for characters in Hordes where at least they try to blend the two things so you get more fluff and background.
re the Cain novels - as I have mentioned on many occassions - the Sisters in general are NOT described at all like this - one specific veteran on a backwater planet is described thus - the others described are exactly what you would expect in the fluff - uncomprimising, fanatical, inspiring and devout as well as being effective warriors. With regard to what Melissa said - its also worth remembering that the Cain novels are, in universe edited versions of a characters own version of events......
Now authors do either take liberties on occassion or make "Mistakes" but they are usualy far less important that those done by the parent company:
Grey Knights massive retcon
Necrons massive retcon
contradicitons in the ally matrix with current fluff
etc etc
In comparison having Marines have multilasers (which is not a big deal really), a single aberant Sister, Eldar ships having void shields etc is not a big thing.
back OT -
re the warships - nope Space marine ships are about the same size and tougher - going by both fluff and BFG stats. They do have Lance weaponary and the Navy assessments in BFG themselves state how deadily an opponent they would be for any Navy force.
re the warships - nope Space marine ships are about the same size and tougher - going by both fluff and BFG stats. They do have Lance weaponary and the Navy assessments in BFG themselves state how deadily an opponent they would be for any Navy force.
The original assertion was that the Imperial Navy has longer ranged guns. This much is true. Go through the BFG stats and the longer ranged Imperial Navy ships have guns of 60cm, and Nova Cannons. No post-Heresy standard Space Marine ships have Nova Cannons and their gun batteries are only 45cm. The only Space Marine ships with lance weaponry is the Nova class frigate, and it is rare and contentious precisely because it infringes upon the Navy's role as the frigate is not a ship designed for planetary assault.
Of all the vessels in the service of the Adeptus Astartes, the Nova class frigate is commonly the single class to which the Imperial navy take the most exception. It lacks sufficient size to really fulfil the deployment and assault roles for which Space Marine ships are primarily intended and its lance armament and speed make it a menacing gunboat in its own right. As such, the Nova remains rare in most Space Marine fleets, a trend the Imperial Navy, the Inquisition and other institutions perpetually concerned by the balance of power would dearly love to see continue.
In straight out fleet combat, Space Marine ships are at a disadvantage, as was meant to be the case after the Heresy:
In a fleet action they would be at a disadvantage in comparison to Imperial Navy vessels, due to their special adaptations for planetary assaults.
-"From the lectures of Lord Captain Morley of the Fleet Insturum of Alien Studies", p. 49, BFG: Warp Storm
The whole point of the splitting of forces after the Heresy was to divide the arms of the military so that another large full scale rebellion like the Heresy would be difficult to pull off. Apart from the Space Marine Legions being split into Chapters to reduce the numerical strength any one commander could command (in theory at least), their fleet capabilities were also in theory stripped to prevent them from being able to challenge the Imperial Navy for domination of space.
Readers shouldn't be shocked that Space Marines are not "OMG the master of everything!". Their weakness in full space combat post-Heresy was intentional. Now some of the Space Marine Chapters descended from the Legions like the Space Wolves seem to bend or break some of these rules and get away with it due to the prestige of their lineage, but the average Space Marine Chapter is meant to conform to them. Breaking the limits imposed on the Space Marines was one of the reasons the Imperium moved against Huron. Chaos Space Marines from the Heresy-era still have ships with lances and long range guns because that division of power never occurred for them.
The
history of the Heresy is well-known, it was a dark and terrible time in which civil war almost destroyed the Imperium. In its aftermath it was clear to the High Lords that too much power had been at the disposal of the traitor Primarchs. The Codex Astartes of Roboute Guilliman was the main reform. The huge Space Marine Legions were broken down into Chapters of a thousand warriors and equipped with specialist barges and strike cruisers.
...
The defeated Traitor Marines were never a part of these reforms however. When the Ultramarines were spawning numerous successor Chapters the Black Legion, the World Eaters and all the others were establishing territories in the Eye of
Terror using all the forces they had managed to salvage from the defeat on Terra. To this day Chaos fleets are subordinate to the Lords of the Chaos Space Marine Legions.
Then how the devil do they stand up to the Imperial Navy?
Hit and run.
Eldar ships use holofields and mobility as their defense. Human ships do not mount weapons in their rear-arc. This is presumably due to the plasma engine exhausts being in the rear and their exhaust creating targeting difficulties. Thus Eldar ships can shelter in the rear-arcs of human ships. Eldar ships are also more adept at navigating celestial phenomena such as asteroid fields, enabling them to go through them with less chance of being damaged, so they can shelter behind such features. Finally, their holofields mean a lot of Imperial attacks will miss as in BFG holofields give a 2+ save against all forms of attacks requiring precision targeting, meaning lances, torpedoes, attack craft like bombers, and nova cannons. Eldar ships end up being weak against massed weapon batteries because the sheer weight and volume of fire means shots still hitting them, despite the increased miss rate caused by the holofields.
Eldar weapons are superior to standard Imperial Navy weapons, so Eldar hit hard. Destroying the enemy so they cannot counterattack, and then running for cover to prepare for another attack run is the Eldar method of warfare. Eldar are glass cannons.
Eldar ships use holofields and mobility as their defense. Human ships do not mount weapons in their rear-arc. This is presumably due to the plasma engine exhausts being in the rear and their exhaust creating targeting difficulties. Thus Eldar ships can shelter in the rear-arcs of human ships. Eldar ships are also more adept at navigating celestial phenomena such as asteroid fields, enabling them to go through them with less chance of being damaged, so they can shelter behind such features. Finally, their holofields mean a lot of Imperial attacks will miss as in BFG holofields give a 2+ save against all forms of attacks requiring precision targeting, meaning lances, torpedoes, attack craft like bombers, and nova cannons. Eldar ships end up being weak against massed weapon batteries because the sheer weight and volume of fire means shots still hitting them, despite the increased miss rate caused by the holofields.
Eldar weapons are superior to standard Imperial Navy weapons, so Eldar hit hard. Destroying the enemy so they cannot counterattack, and then running for cover to prepare for another attack run is the Eldar method of warfare. Eldar are glass cannons.
That makes sense...though I seem to recall an old Star Trek tactic against cloaked ships: fire off a spread of torpedoes and lance rounds. Since Imperial ships have no rear weapons, just use Imperial numbers to the advantage - have them form a spherical, outward-facing formation. And for asteroids...a tight, thermonuclear mine field with proximity fuses ought to do the job. The resonating shock waves and rapidly expanding fireball ought to do those cowards in just right.
Yes and no - its only really the big Captial ships (Battleships) and specialised variants where the Navy outrange the Astartes warships.
Also part of your post was related to size and durability - which I feel was in error as the capital ships are Hull 6 all round rather than just at the prow. Even their smallest escorts are Hull 5 as befits their role - whilst also being faster than the Navy equivalents. So you end up with ships that can take a pounding but with somewhat shorter range guns and more faster + agile escorts versus some longer range guns.
I agree the disadvantage is meant to be there as outlined by the words of Lord Captain Morley - but I am sure there is also a longer version of this I have read?
However as you say - the fleet based Astartes Chapters in particular tend to be far more formidable in fleet combat as seen in the Armegeddon conflict and as noted on p21 of Armada:
"Inevitably the wrangling over interpretation of a ships ' primary role' leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with."
I think as in everything with 40K its much more varied the more you look into it - the big problem the Astartes warships have (as again noted in the Armgeddon War in Armada) is the crew size - or more specifically the Astartes element which is needed elsewhere. The Navy are better overall in a straight fight as it should be but the fleet of the Asartes is able to hold its own in naval actions and accomplise other tasks - which again goes back to the topic.
Very good sumation of the Eldar way of warfare by the way
Eldar ships use holofields and mobility as their defense. Human ships do not mount weapons in their rear-arc. This is presumably due to the plasma engine exhausts being in the rear and their exhaust creating targeting difficulties. Thus Eldar ships can shelter in the rear-arcs of human ships. Eldar ships are also more adept at navigating celestial phenomena such as asteroid fields, enabling them to go through them with less chance of being damaged, so they can shelter behind such features. Finally, their holofields mean a lot of Imperial attacks will miss as in BFG holofields give a 2+ save against all forms of attacks requiring precision targeting, meaning lances, torpedoes, attack craft like bombers, and nova cannons. Eldar ships end up being weak against massed weapon batteries because the sheer weight and volume of fire means shots still hitting them, despite the increased miss rate caused by the holofields.
Eldar weapons are superior to standard Imperial Navy weapons, so Eldar hit hard. Destroying the enemy so they cannot counterattack, and then running for cover to prepare for another attack run is the Eldar method of warfare. Eldar are glass cannons.
That makes sense...though I seem to recall an old Star Trek tactic against cloaked ships: fire off a spread of torpedoes and lance rounds. Since Imperial ships have no rear weapons, just use Imperial numbers to the advantage - have them form a spherical, outward-facing formation. And for asteroids...a tight, thermonuclear mine field with proximity fuses ought to do the job. The resonating shock waves and rapidly expanding fireball ought to do those cowards in just right.
Space is big and most engagements in the setting are fought at (tens or even hundreds of ) thousands of kilometres. Blindly pumping ammunition into space won't help at all. Laying mines is equaly foolish ( once again, space is realy big ) unless one has a very specific and narrow location which can be mined.
Space is also mostly empty, even asteroid fields. That GW thought it was necessary to add rules for flying trough asteroid fields is either a sign of their relative lack of knowledge or they simply adhere
to the quite common trope of dense asteroid fields. There are also no shockwaves in space, simply because there is no carrier medium like air.
The best way to fight Eldar ships is to get as close as possible and hope that massed broadsides in the general direction of the enemy will do the job.
Space is big and most engagements in the setting are fought at (tens or even hundreds of ) thousands of kilometres. Blindly pumping ammunition into space won't help at all. Laying mines is equaly foolish ( once again, space is realy big ) unless one has a very specific and narrow location which can be mined. Space is also mostly empty, even asteroid fields. That GW thought it was necessary to add rules for flying trough asteroid fields is either a sign of their relative lack of knowledge or they simply adhere to the quite common trope of dense asteroid fields. There are also no shockwaves in space, simply because there is no carrier medium like air.
The best way to fight Eldar ships is to get as close as possible and hope that massed broadsides in the general direction of the enemy will do the job.
Or use a ship from the Golden Age of Technology (the Slaughtersong or other ships of its class) or a ship designed using Golden Age-level technology (the Furious Abyss or the pre-Heresy Pride of the Emperor and other similar vessels). Show those pointy-eared limp-wrists what it means to challenge the Human race.
EDIT: Even with holo-fields, we can see the Eldar ships - just fire the torpedo/lance spread in their direction. Enough will hit to ensure they'll think twice about making another attack run.
Depending on the author sometimes you can't see the Eldar vessels with the naked eye either - especially if not moving under own power, but waiting in ambush.
Mr Morden wrote: Depending on the author sometimes you can't see the Eldar vessels with the naked eye either - especially if not moving under own power, but waiting in ambush.
Ships flying in proper formation are more than capable of breaking an ambush.
Or use a ship from the Golden Age of Technology (the Slaughtersong or other ships of its class) or a ship designed using Golden Age-level technology (the Furious Abyss or the pre-Heresy Pride of the Emperor and other similar vessels). Show those pointy-eared limp-wrists what it means to challenge the Human race.
Like there are a lot of those lying around...
EDIT: Even with holo-fields, we can see the Eldar ships - just fire the torpedo/lance spread in their direction. Enough will hit to ensure they'll think twice about making another attack run.
No, we cannot always see Eldar ships. In the BL novel Shadow Point, an Imperial captain remembers how as a junior officer he saw an Eldar ship seemingly hit by a lance shot...only it turned out to be a false image projected by the holofield. Not even naked eyes are reliable.
Your tactic also wouldn't work reliably, and can be shown as such in BFG. Did you not read the BFG rules? Holofields are 2+ save against any targeted attack, which includes lances and torpedoes. Against other other human ships, torpedo waves can be a form of area denial, but Eldar ships can actually run through Imperial torpedo salvos with a good chance of survival, and often their mobility means they don't have to do that in the first place at all.
Cruiser torpedo salvo of 6 torpedoes.
BFG Eldar armour stat of 4+, so on average 3 torpedoes lock on for attack runs.
3/6 torpedoes actually hit once you take holofields into account, i.e. 1/2 a torpedo. In other words, a 50% of doing absolutely nothing, and 50% of a hit.
I don't know whether you're speaking out of some sort of anti-Eldar bias, but the stuff you are trying to claim works against Eldar...doesn't.
Or use a ship from the Golden Age of Technology (the Slaughtersong or other ships of its class) or a ship designed using Golden Age-level technology (the Furious Abyss or the pre-Heresy Pride of the Emperor and other similar vessels). Show those pointy-eared limp-wrists what it means to challenge the Human race.
Like there are a lot of those lying around...
Point taken...but against those, Eldar don't stand a chance.
EDIT: Even with holo-fields, we can see the Eldar ships - just fire the torpedo/lance spread in their direction. Enough will hit to ensure they'll think twice about making another attack run.
No, we cannot always see Eldar ships. In the BL novel Shadow Point, an Imperial captain remembers how as a junior officer he saw an Eldar ship seemingly hit by a lance shot...only it turned out to be a false image projected by the holofield.
Your tactic also wouldn't work reliably, and can be shown as such in BFG. Did you not read the BFG rules? Holofields are 2+ save against any targeted attack, which includes lances and torpedoes. For other human ships, torpedo waves can be a form of area denial, but Eldar ships can actually run through Imperial torpedo salvos with a good chance of survival.
Cruiser torpedo salvo of 6 torpedoes.
BFG Eldar armour stat of 4+, so on average 3 torpedoes lock on for attack runs.
3/6 torpedoes actually hit, i.e. 1/2 a torpedo. In other words, a 50% of doing absolutely nothing, and 50% of a hit.
I don't know whether you're speaking out of some sort of anti-Eldar bias, but the stuff you are trying to claim works against Eldar...doesn't.
I don't have BFG - I can only buy what I can afford/find. Or download...so I try and get by with fluff. And even if you have 50% chance, then just engage with superior numbers. Which the Imperial Navy usually does. Three-on-one, I'd like to see the Eldar win.
Point taken...but against those, Eldar don't stand a chance.
Also debateable as there is no hard data with which to compare performances.
EDIT: Even with holo-fields, we can see the Eldar ships - just fire the torpedo/lance spread in their direction. Enough will hit to ensure they'll think twice about making another attack run.
No, we cannot always see Eldar ships. In the BL novel Shadow Point, an Imperial captain remembers how as a junior officer he saw an Eldar ship seemingly hit by a lance shot...only it turned out to be a false image projected by the holofield.
Your tactic also wouldn't work reliably, and can be shown as such in BFG. Did you not read the BFG rules? Holofields are 2+ save against any targeted attack, which includes lances and torpedoes. For other human ships, torpedo waves can be a form of area denial, but Eldar ships can actually run through Imperial torpedo salvos with a good chance of survival.
Cruiser torpedo salvo of 6 torpedoes.
BFG Eldar armour stat of 4+, so on average 3 torpedoes lock on for attack runs.
3/6 torpedoes actually hit, i.e. 1/2 a torpedo. In other words, a 50% of doing absolutely nothing, and 50% of a hit.
I don't know whether you're speaking out of some sort of anti-Eldar bias, but the stuff you are trying to claim works against Eldar...doesn't.
I don't have BFG - I can only buy what I can afford/find. Or download...so I try and get by with fluff. And even if you have 50% chance, then just engage with superior numbers. Which the Imperial Navy usually does. Three-on-one, I'd like to see the Eldar win.
Not an excuse. BFG is free to download from GW.
The Imperial Navy actually usually does not have numerical superiority until it masses a fleet together. In normal operations, a sector's fleet is spread out on patrols (as per the BFG rulebook), which gives attackers, Eldar or human, usually the advantage of local superiority or at least even numbers.
There is a reason there is the Imperial naval saying "You may as well try to catch starlight as bring Eldar to battle." (BFG) The Eldar bases of operation are unknown and concealed to be hard to find. The Eldar are almost always the attacker, not defender, and can thus mostly pick and choose their battles (and this is also reflected in official BFG campaign rules). If you mass an armada, the Eldar won't face it in a face to face slugging match, and strike elsewhere instead.
The Imperial Navy actually usually does not have numerical superiority until it masses a fleet together. In normal operations, a sector's fleet is spread out on patrols (as per the BFG rulebook), which gives attackers, Eldar or human, usually the advantage of local superiority or at least even numbers.
There is a reason there is the Imperial naval saying "You may as well try to catch starlight as bring Eldar to battle." (BFG) The Eldar bases of operation are unknown and concealed to be hard to find. The Eldar are almost always the attacker, not defender, and can thus mostly pick and choose their battles (and this is also reflected in official BFG campaign rules). If you mass an armada, the Eldar won't face it in a face to face slugging match, and strike elsewhere instead.
Then attack something that will force them to engage - Maiden Worlds or Craftworlds, or even an ancient Webway Gate on some backwater world. The best defense is a good offense.
Then attack something that will force them to engage - Maiden Worlds or Craftworlds, or even an ancient Webway Gate on some backwater world. The best defense is a good offense.
For what reason? Naval engagements against the Eldar tend to be costly if they are won at all. Larger imperial warships on the other hand take decades and in some cases even centuries to build.
To wage a largely unnecessary and costly war ( sure, corsair attacks and meddling craftworlds are annoying but rarely of critical importance ) for little gain is counter productive.
Why you assume that Dark age of Technology warships are necessarily superior to equaly sized Eldar warships is somewhat puzzling. Ultimately they aren't much different from what the Imperium is still using, after all the height of human technology is found in the Imperium's spaceships.
The Imperial Navy actually usually does not have numerical superiority until it masses a fleet together. In normal operations, a sector's fleet is spread out on patrols (as per the BFG rulebook), which gives attackers, Eldar or human, usually the advantage of local superiority or at least even numbers.
There is a reason there is the Imperial naval saying "You may as well try to catch starlight as bring Eldar to battle." (BFG) The Eldar bases of operation are unknown and concealed to be hard to find. The Eldar are almost always the attacker, not defender, and can thus mostly pick and choose their battles (and this is also reflected in official BFG campaign rules). If you mass an armada, the Eldar won't face it in a face to face slugging match, and strike elsewhere instead.
Then attack something that will force them to engage - Maiden Worlds or Craftworlds, or even an ancient Webway Gate on some backwater world. The best defense is a good offense.
Again you just whip out these suggestions as if it were so easy and straightforward to accomplish.
The Eldar are hard to engage precisely because they have no easily known fixed assets for the Imperium to pick on. The Imperium for the most part can't even distinguish between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar, let alone know what are Maiden Worlds or which ones might be linked to one even smaller subset of Eldar such as a specific Craftworld or a specific Corsair group. Only a few people such as the Inquisition would have any idea that the strange structure on a world might be linked to the Eldar, and then it might not be known whether it is important or trivial, functional or non-functional. That is before we even come to Craftworld fleets as opposed to just Eldar corsair fleets, and these Craftworld fleets are described as being a major threat to Imperial fleets:
Although Eldar Corsairs are a constant threat to merchant shipping, they very rarely pose a major threat to Imperial battlefleets. The same cannot be said of the dozens of fleets of Eldar ships that protect each Eldar Craftworld. Each of these Craftworld warfleets is a deadly and highly potent force that is capable of laying waste to an entire sub-sector.
An entire Craftworld was in the Gothic Sector during the Gothic War yet the Imperium never could confirm this during or after the war, and neither could the Eldar corsairs be tracked to their base (BFG rulebook p. 96). The events of the Gothic War spanned 21 years, from 139.M41 to 160.M41. Twenty one years of war and anti-pirate operations, and still no success in finding them let alone actually attacking them.
The solutions you keep posting are all easy to say, but difficult or near impossible to do with any realistic chance of success.
It's like saying the solution to technological decline and the problems of the Imperium is easy: just have everyone stop being superstitious and learn to fix the Emperor's Throne.
Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do.
An entire Craftworld was in the Gothic Sector during the Gothic War yet the Imperium never could confirm this during or after the war, and neither could the Eldar corsairs be tracked to their base (BFG rulebook p. 96). The events of the Gothic War spanned 21 years, from 139.M41 to 160.M41. Twenty one years of war and anti-pirate operations, and still no success in finding them let alone actually attacking them.
I assume thats the one in Shadowpoint which I have just read having picked up second hand? Good read if a few minor things jar against more recent fluff - did like the authors attempts to flesh out Eldar culture.
On the subject of assaulting Craftworlds - needs a sector fleet or bigger and Astartes support for the boarding (and on topic a bit ; ) ) and even then its going to be a massive drain on resources
Tadashi wrote: Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.
A sour grapes excuse and showing clearly your own personal biases and opinions, with your own identification with the Imperium using the word "we". If you are going to try to debate, jingoistic unsupported statements of opinion are not valid points. You are not in the Imperium. You are an outside observer to a fictional universe. Trouble differentiating oneself from one's 40K faction is a sign of heading into fanboy territory.
And for yet further evidence that things aren't so easy:
However, perhaps the most important reason for the Imperium's lack of effort to assault the Eldar is that bringing the elusive race to battle is far easier said than done. Seemingly able to predict and counter the Imperium's every move, the Eldar fade like shadows before a rising sun, disappearing before any battles they do not wish to fight. The only attack that the Imperium managed to push home onto a craftworld ended with the disaster of Blood Nebula and the loss of an entire sector fleet.
There's been at least two Imperial assaults on Craftworlds prior to the Blood Nebula disaster; one on Alaitoc, which ended in a tie, and another Space Marine/Guard joint assault on Craftworld Idharae that ended with the Invader's chapter being nearly wiped out, and the Eldar on the craftworld getting killed to a man.
Being the badasses that they are, Alaitoc proceeded to figure out which chapter had assaulted Idhare, track them down, and 40 years later burnt their fortress-monastery to the ground, killing all but three companies of the chapter.
There's been at least two Imperial assaults on Craftworlds prior to the Blood Nebula disaster; one on Alaitoc, which ended in a tie, and another Space Marine/Guard joint assault on Craftworld Idharae that ended with the Invader's chapter being nearly wiped out, and the Eldar on the craftworld getting killed to a man.
Being the badasses that they are, Alaitoc proceeded to figure out which chapter had assaulted Idhare, track them down, and 40 years later burnt their fortress-monastery to the ground, killing all but three companies of the chapter.
Love Eldar. They don't feth around.
It is not actually stated what craftworld was assaulted in the Blood Nebula disaster. Nor is it said when the assault on Alaitoc in the Path of the EldarBL novels occurred, nor what the human name for the location of the Craftworld was. With these gaps, it is not possible to conclusively rule out the possibility that those two are actually the same incident, particularly as we are given descriptions of heavy fighting in space in the novels.
The quote you provided makes an absolute. There's been at least two documented attacks, on two seperate craftworlds, Alaitoc and Idharae, with two different outcomes. Therefore, the statement "the only attack that the Imperium managed to push home onto a craftworld" is demonstrably false. "the only attack" implies that there's only been one attack on a Craftworld. Considering that the rulebook covers fluff from the beginning of the crusade, all the way up to M41.999, the chronology of the assaults doesn't matter.
Also, it's doubtful that the Blood Nebulae assault was the Craftworld attack. It's mentioned pretty conclusively within the novel that Alaitoc was in a solar system with planets, hovering around its sun, at the time of the attack. As well, the battle was considered a tie, with the Craftworld actually losing up until the Space Marines chapter decided to cancel the battle. It's never stated that the Imperium loses an entire sector fleet in that battle. All logical inference points to the cryptic "Blood Nebulae incident" being a different incident from the Alaitoc battle.
BlaxicanX wrote: The quote you provided makes an absolute. There's been at least two documented attacks, on two seperate craftworlds, Alaitoc and Idharae, with two different outcomes. Therefore, the statement "the only attack that the Imperium managed to push home onto a craftworld" is demonstrably false. "the only attack" implies that there's only been one attack on a Craftworld. Considering that the rulebook covers fluff from the beginning of the crusade, all the way up to M41.999, the chronology of the assaults doesn't matter.
"only attack that the Imperium managed to push home" is the full phrase. Only refers to the only attack that was pushed home, not that there has ever only been 1 attack. Pushed home is not defined. Alaitoc's survival may well disqualify it from being counted as "pushed home". The chronology matters an enormous amount as it determines whether the statements could both be correct as of the time they were made. There is no date given for the attack on Alaitoc. For all we know, it could occur at 999.M41 or even M42. The novel Cadian Blood for example takes place in M42 through a reading of the textual clues, as it occurs 3 years after the 13th Black Crusade first assaulted Cadia which occurs in 999.M41 thus placing the novel in 003.M42.
Also, it's doubtful that the Blood Nebulae assault was the Craftworld attack. It's mentioned pretty conclusively within the novel that Alaitoc was in a solar system with planets, hovering around its sun, at the time of the attack. As well, the battle was considered a tie, with the Craftworld actually losing up until the Space Marines chapter decided to cancel the battle. It's never stated that the Imperium loses an entire sector fleet in that battle. All logical inference points to the cryptic "Blood Nebulae incident" being a different incident from the Alaitoc battle.
A solar system does not preclude being in a nebula. Solar systems have been thought to form within nebulae. It is never stated the Imperium loses a sector fleet but then the story is not told from the POV of the Imperium so one can hardly expect that to be stated in the novels. However the Imperial fleet is shown being pounced upon exit from the warp and ships are shown being destroyed by Eldar fleet attacks in Path of the Seer.
The details you mention still do not rule out the two things being the same incident. Not all logical inferences point to your conclusion. You are resorting to the mistake of assuming your conclusion is the only "logical" outcome and then implying that anything that doesn't lead ot the same conclusion is "illogical". The evidence is not definitively pointing to the two incidents being the same but it is not definitively ruling it out either.
"only attack that the Imperium managed to push home" is the full phrase. Only refers to the only attack that was pushed home, not that there has ever only been 1 attack. Pushed home is not defined. Alaitoc's survival may well disqualify it from being counted as "pushed home".
... =\
What the heck do you think "pushed home" means? This is literally one of the worst counter-points I have ever seen in the 8 odd years I have been on the internet.
The chronology matters an enormous amount as it determines whether the statements could both be correct as of the time they were made. There is no date given for the attack on Alaitoc. For all we know, it could occur at 999.M41 or even M42. The novel Cadian Blood for example takes place in M42 through a reading of the textual clues, as it occurs 3 years after the 13th Black Crusade first assaulted Cadia which occurs in 999.M41 thus placing the novel in 003.M42.
It's stated in the novels to have taken place in M41. So no.
A solar system does not preclude being in a nebula. Solar systems have been thought to form within nebulae. It is never stated the Imperium loses a sector fleet but then the story is not told from the POV of the Imperium so one can hardly expect that to be stated in the novels. However the Imperial fleet is shown being pounced upon exit from the warp and ships are shown being destroyed by Eldar fleet attacks in Path of the Seer.
The fleet wasn't destroyed, it's stated that despite the Eldar's efforts the Imperium fleet was pushing them back and destroying tons of Eldar ships in return and "it's never stated to not be a Sector fleet" isn't a valid argument. If you're going to claim that the fleet that engaged Alaitoc was a sector fleet, the onus would be on you to prove it.
The details you mention still do not rule out the two things being the same incident. Not all logical inferences point to your conclusion. You are resorting to the mistake of assuming your conclusion is the only "logical" outcome and then implying that anything that doesn't lead ot the same conclusion is "illogical". The evidence is not definitively pointing to the two incidents being the same but it is not definitively ruling it out either.
On the other hand, you have, literally, zero logic or inference that points to the Blood Nebulae incident being the Alaitoc assault. So again I assert, there is far more pointing to the incidences being separate events, than there is pointing to them being the same.
Do you even know what your argument is? In the first half of your post, you insist that Alaitoc isn't the Craftworld assault being referenced in the codex quote, because in your mind, "attack that the Imperium managed to push home onto a craftworld" is somehow different from what happened to Alaitoc, where the Imperial forces pushed through the Eldar's fleet defenses, boarded their Craftworld, and managed to push the Eldar all the way back into their own Craftworld until they were literally fighting in its heart. Yet, half a post down, you're simultaneously arguing that the Alaitoc assault is the Craftworld attack being mentioned in the quote, because you're asserting that the fight took place in the Blood Nebulae. I'm not sure if you're trolling or just crazy, but make up your mind. Is Alaitoc the Craftworld being referenced in the codex quote, or isn't it?
What the heck do you think "pushed home" means? This is literally one of the worst counter-points I have ever seen in the 8 odd years I have been on the internet.
Pushed home can mean anything from actually finding and being able to engage a Craftworld, to being able to land on a Craftworld, or to being able to destroy a Craftworld. Its usage in the text is not apparent or clearly defined. Again just because you see one and only one possible meaning does not mean that is actually the case.
It's stated in the novels to have taken place in M41. So no.
Provide a quote for this claim that the assault on Alaitoc is in M41.
The fleet wasn't destroyed, it's stated that despite the Eldar's efforts the Imperium fleet was pushing them back and destroying tons of Eldar ships in return and "it's never stated to not be a Sector fleet" isn't a valid argument. If you're going to claim that the fleet that engaged Alaitoc was a sector fleet, the onus would be on you to prove it.
See the below quote:
For all practical purposes, a sector's battlefleet is the largest operational naval organisation, under the command of a Lord Admiral.
Each battlefleet consists of 50 to 75 warships of varying size, although in some sectors this will more or less, according to the importance of the sector and the number of enemies it must contend with.
p. 86, Battlefleet Gothic rulebook
The number of ships shown in the novels is clearly more than whatever a single planet can muster, and presses on despite taking many many losses, and despite the involvement of Eldar battleships. This clearly involves the Imperial Navy at a significant level if it is able to advance in the face of battleship opposition. The Gothic Sector was shown to have 2 maybe 3 battleships total prior to the outbreak of the Gothic War and the receiving of reinforcements. Since the Imperial Navy is organized by sector battle fleets, the forces assaulting Alaitoc have to by definition include sector forces, and therefore comprise a sector fleet, at the minimum.
Tadashi wrote: Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.
Engaging the Eldar when there's no need would be both costly and foolish. The last time the Imperium attacked a Craftworld an entire Sector Fleet was lost, assets that could have been used for something worthwhile instead like keeping supply routes open.
Loved BFG, most balanced game GW has come out with in a long time.
eldar were nasty customers, saw a Void stalker crack a marine battlebarge in half on numerous occassions.
the funny thing is I found it easier to fight eldar with my Ork fleets than Imperial, it was a fun match up. Its also not just eldar lance/battieries that were deadly , their ord was crazy nasty, launching fighters and bombers at them was always a frustrating exercise.
But if you could hit them, the crits and lower hull values would do them in quickly..as I said a very balanced game.
But if you wanna talk nasty..try fighting the necrons with imperial fleet ships.
which BTW the eldar fought very well, necron vs. eldar engagements were really a close run.
A better comparison would be between A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.
Two tellings of the same story-- from different perspectives.
I meant in terms of a comparison of quality between a GW product and a BL product dealing with the same army.
Both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns are well-written and good novels, and don't really contradict eachother either.
Well, aside from them contradicting eachother all the time, due to the inherent biases within each book-- biases intentionally put in to the books. The portrayal of the Space Wolves is vastly different between the two books.
Which was the entire POINT of the two books in the first place, I should note-- to show how different the same events are, when taken from the perspective of two different sides. Which is also my point. BL books, and indeed codices, are written from the perspective of one side, never from an impartial narrator. There's no such thing as an impartial narrator in 40k, and you really always need to keep that in mind when you read anything.
Melissia wrote: Well, aside from them contradicting eachother all the time, due to the inherent biases within each book-- biases intentionally put in to the books. The portrayal of the Space Wolves is vastly different between the two books.
Which was the entire POINT of the two books in the first place, I should note-- to show how different the same events are, when taken from the perspective of two different sides. Which is also my point. BL books, and indeed codices, are written from the perspective of one side, never from an impartial narrator. There's no such thing as an impartial narrator in 40k, and you really always need to keep that in mind when you read anything.
Those are contradictions based on perspective, not contradictions inherent in the settings presented. That is an entirely different animal from, say, the Necrons in 3e being an implacable legion of doom serving ancient evil gods, and the ones in 5e being metal men overflowing with all these feelings. Feelings, that can be broken.
The portrayal isn't that different. The main difference is that the savage, vicious nature of the Wolves in Prospero Burns is revealed to be an invoked persona, they have taken up the role of executioners for the Emperor, and while brutal and savage, there is a cunning, an intelligence behind it.
The same can be easily said of GW material though. In any Imperial codex, the Orks are a monstrous race of savage berserkers, a horrifying green tide that is all but impossible to stop. In the Ork codex, they're football hooligans in it for a good laugh and a good fight.
Also, I should point out that no single character narrates A Thousand Sons, and indeed, when Ahriman thinks, say, that Leman Russ is a brutal, vicious savage, the writing makes sure to phrase it in such a way for it to be clear that this is Ahriman's view.
I'm honestly not sure what it is you are trying to tell me now, or rather, why you are telling me it.
Quite simply, it's a continuation of my argument that BL books are unreliable sources of information. And they are intentionally so, in fact. Games Workshop does not want to turn 40k in to Star Wars.
Melissia wrote: Quite simply, it's a continuation of my argument that BL books are unreliable sources of information. And they are intentionally so, in fact. Games Workshop does not want to turn 40k in to Star Wars.
Too bad the Horus Heresy novels are the new canon for that area of the chronology...
Tadashi wrote: Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.
Engaging the Eldar when there's no need would be both costly and foolish. The last time the Imperium attacked a Craftworld an entire Sector Fleet was lost, assets that could have been used for something worthwhile instead like keeping supply routes open.
And if there is a need?
CLEANSE THE STARS! PURGE THE HEAVENS! SHOW THOSE PITIFUL FOOLS THE MIGHT OF TERRA!
Melissia wrote: Quite simply, it's a continuation of my argument that BL books are unreliable sources of information. And they are intentionally so, in fact. Games Workshop does not want to turn 40k in to Star Wars.
Too bad the Horus Heresy novels are the new canon for that area of the chronology...
Tadashi wrote: Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.
Engaging the Eldar when there's no need would be both costly and foolish. The last time the Imperium attacked a Craftworld an entire Sector Fleet was lost, assets that could have been used for something worthwhile instead like keeping supply routes open.
And if there is a need?
CLEANSE THE STARS! PURGE THE HEAVENS! SHOW THOSE PITIFUL FOOLS THE MIGHT OF TERRA!
Get eaten by the Tyranids, enslaved by Dark Eldar, corrupted by Chaos, butchered by the Necrons, because you waste your hard to replace ships against relatively minor but very well armed threats.
Even if some find it hard to believe, the Imperium has only limited ressources and has been described that way rather consistently for a long time.
Bobthehero wrote: And half the SM will be turn to chaos as well. weeeeeeeeeeeee equality!
It required the direct intervention of the Chaos Gods themselves to manage that feat.
And want to know something else?
Far more normal mortals turned heretic during the Horus Heresy than Space Marines.
Magnus attacked the Fang with two million of the Spireguard he whisked away from Prospero during the Heresy.
That's more than the fighting force of all the Legions combined.
At first, the majority of the Astartes that turned were simply following their commanders, some of whom they have lived with and heard legends about literally their entire lives. You have to remember that it wasn't the full Legions that rebelled, since Horus had to purge a significant number of loyalists from his ranks. The other traitor Primarchs did the same; even gentle Lorgar had every Terra-born battle brother slaughtered. So yes, the traitor rate among the Crusade-era Space Marines isn't as high as implied and is in some way understandable.
friendly fire..isn't!
