andystache wrote:


Welcome to playing Dark Angels, we have a fluff accurate list. You can take most HQs with either RW or DW, but there is one RW Company Master (Sammael) and one DW Company Master (Belial). Now because all Company Masters are DW they can take Termie armor and drop with their battle brothers. They are not all Ravenwing and the Ravenwing stands apart so no bikes. Things like this are why the DA get their own codex, despite all appearances to the contrary we're not a codex chapter. We don't get a Master of the Forge because we don't trust Techmarines that much and we hard-wire our best techmarine into our fortess monastery.

Not to be unwelcoming, but if you want to take a Captain on a bike, play White Scars, or really any codex chapter. If you want to play the Unforgiven then understand that our fluff is tied directly to our army choices

EDIT: Azrael is his own delivery mechanism, his squad has 4++ on top of their 3+. Personally I like him in a 9 man squad of vets with every vet having a storm bolter.

I was thinking of Vets, but how to get them to the field? Drop pod? A stupid Rhino by itself getting shot by every high strength weapon in the enemy's arsenal?

If I have my Ravenwing attack squad turbo boost on its scout move, I can drop my Termies via DW Assault turn 1 on the Homing Beacon and do the same w/ the drop pod on turn whatever Azrael comes in on.

What really frustrates me is the entire Vet squad would be non-scoring, and I also think that 3+ saves are stupid in CC.

Err.... Why can't you stick Azrael along with some termies in a Land Raider?

Yes, you can.

Do you really wanna do that? Nearly ~450 points just for the baseline models and then you're adding another 250 just for a transport.

And then the Terminators would get no benefit from Deathwing Assault or Vengeful Strike.

By contrast, you could get another unit of scoring DW Terminators for that price that would DS on turn 1 and have TL Storm Bolters/Assault Cannon/Cyclone.

Azreal's main benefit is providing his squad with a 4++ save, so putting him with Termies is a waste of his abilities. Instead you drop him into a relatively cheap blob and no you have a solid unit that soaks up a ton of fire.

Now Azreal and his bullet shield can walk across the field, hop in a Rhino, fall in a Drop Pod, or take the limo (LR)

But the "cheap blob" would either have to be Scouts or Tacs.

Vets aren't cheap in this dex and their combat abilities are not all that exciting, upgrades are pretty expensive.

Plus a 4++ doesn't increase your upfront survivability, it only increases your survivability against relatively rare AP3 shooting. I only see it being useful in CC, and walking across the board is a pretty slow way of delivering a 300+ point unit.

So are lightning claws basically useless now that we get TL SBs when we DS? Whats the best load out right now for a DW term squad?

I would think PF/SB and one model with TH/SS and cyclone would be pretty legit.

 TedNugent wrote:
But the "cheap blob" would either have to be Scouts or Tacs.

Vets aren't cheap in this dex and their combat abilities are not all that exciting, upgrades are pretty expensive.

Plus a 4++ doesn't increase your upfront survivability, it only increases your survivability against relatively rare AP3 shooting. I only see it being useful in CC, and walking across the board is a pretty slow way of delivering a 300+ point unit.

Vets are cheap compared to other codex marines vets (ie sternguard and vangaurd) 18pts per model with base 2 attack and free ccw/bp. Sounds cheap to me.

What are peoples thoughts on weapons choices for shooty Terminators? I'm still waiting on my codex (from a 3rd party supplier, slow but I save about 40% of what I would pay for it in Canada), but with Deathwing Assault granting TL I'm starting to like the idea of assault cannons. Rending makes them good against pretty much any target, and TL works slightly better with higher rate of fire weapons. Also, now that TH/SS termies are 49 points, are they still worth taking over PF/SB terminators?

Coyote81 wrote:


Vets are cheap compared to other codex marines vets (ie sternguard and vangaurd) 18pts per model with base 2 attack and free ccw/bp. Sounds cheap to me.

Just like Wolfguard, only Dark Angel veteran's pay twice as much for the same gear.

 TedNugent wrote:
But the "cheap blob" would either have to be Scouts or Tacs.

Vets aren't cheap in this dex and their combat abilities are not all that exciting, upgrades are pretty expensive.

Plus a 4++ doesn't increase your upfront survivability, it only increases your survivability against relatively rare AP3 shooting. I only see it being useful in CC, and walking across the board is a pretty slow way of delivering a 300+ point unit.

Stick him in a blob of guard allies.

I like assault cannons or cyclones on shooty termies, with 1 storm bolter, in a 10 man squad. Turn 1, deep strike and shoot 2 separate vehicles with your 2 heavy weapons, turn 2 shoot 2 heavy weapons at a vehicle and shoot your storm bolter with split fire at the unit you want to charge. This maxes your anti vehicle fire power, doesn't shoot your enemy's front models so much you fail a charge, and leaves lots of cc termies (th ss).

I got some games in with various units, I didn't try all the new ones yet. The ravenwing as I ran them the previous edition really suffered from overwatch, as I ran a dual wing where the ravenwing guided my termies down with homers turn 1 and assaulted (I went second) to tie up big necron units so the termies didn't get as much small arms. Both charges failed due to overwatch killing several lead bikes. The ravenwing are still good scouting homers, and still bring melta for tanks, but performed worse for me in the one game I played them in.

I tried azrael in the guard blob, that was just disgusting! Normally my guard allies 2 rune priests who try for forewarning to get the 4++, now it's guaranteed with azzy, at double the cost. He can also grant an amazing leadership buff for your stubborn marines by rolling an extra dice and discarding the highest. As I saw it, the leadership ability applied to psychic powers, so the allied primaris psyker and da Libby never failed a power check. It also helps versus runes when up against eldar.

The whirlwinds were great, 65 points is a good value with barrage being what it is. I played 3 games with whirlwinds and while versus the daemons they were less effective, they still pulled their weight.

I tried the bolter banner versus daemons 2 times, once with 2 tac squads and once with 4, both times with a crusader with hurricane support. The 4 tac squads definitely had the dice to chew through fate weaver plus 27 screamers, though it is a close thing. The 2 squads did not have the shooting power, as I took anti vehicle attacks like mm typhoons and las plas razors with the points. The static nature of the bolters, and the relative clump that 40 tac marines makes, means I am wary about this list as an all comers. Low mobility and low anti vehicle fire power in favor of a 50 blob and 40 marines makes you really hard to approach but easy to beat with a tank shock at the last minute from the vehicles your bolters can't scratch. I want more testing here, as wel as a devastation ravenwing build.

The deathwing knights got played versus the screamer daemons and necrons. Versus screamers they held them up just fine and were on the way to killing them in a 6 on 9 match thanks to getting the charge via a crusader. However, the Rest of the screamers went on to kill all my other units. The blob did much better with azzy as trading 10 t5 wounds in knights with 3++ for 50 t3 wounds with a 4++ favors the guard blob heavily since both are fearless. Azzy is not a cheap char, but the blob is cheaper than 10 knights, and though they don't deep strike, they get first rank second rank.

Versus necrons, the massive short range shooting fire power neutered the dw knight unit as I tried the bike deep strike approach. This approach can still work, but I am going to want multiple units of 10 termies, and probably swap the knights for regular deathwing. This leaves very little points left for support however.

I still have to try dev squads, the vengeance for a lark, the shroud, the flyers, the Fnp banner, the vet squad, and black knights. Will update when I do.

For regular Deathwing terminators, is it better to mix up the squads (some TH/SS, some regular, some LC in the same squad) or is it better to make a group of full 1-type (all TH/SS in one group, all regular PF/SB in another)?

Sounds like you have the basic idea of the new DA, but honestly, the dev banner is wasted on tactical marines due to their lack of mobility and no relentless. Used properly with a heavy ravenwing list, is pretty sick to see 48 bolter shots that are also twinlinked shooting at a unit of terms that have been hit by a rad grenade right before hand. Can easily put 26-27 wounds on termies, which should kill 4. Should be more then enough to finish off the unit after they took at hit from plasma talons before hand. The only real problem I see with ravenwing is lack of long range anti tanks, but otherwise I see a highly mobile fairly resilent due to increased cover saves and jink, with amazing anti-infantry firepower. Bring a few devestators with flakk. Cast prescience on them and watch the birdies fall out of the sky.

I personally am trying out a build with Tau allies. (the best anti tank/flyer allies I could get)

 TedNugent wrote:
What kind of a delivery mechanism would make sense for an HQ unit in Power Armor, when all the legitimate assault choices are either on Bikes or in TDA?

Land Raider Crusader, packaged with a Command Squad with the Bolter of Devastation (Salvo 2/4 on the Hurricane Bolters) and a Techmarine (for repairs and extra CC punch). Just a thought. Sandwich it between some Tac Squads to boost the Standard's effect, use either Azreal's 4++ bubble or a power field on the Techmarine. Heck, throw Ezekiel in there and you have one hell of a deathstar.

Coyote81 wrote:


Vets are cheap compared to other codex marines vets (ie sternguard and vangaurd) 18pts per model with base 2 attack and free ccw/bp. Sounds cheap to me.

First of all, Vets don't get CCWs. They only get Bolt Pistol Boltgun.

Which means the only difference between a Vet in Codex Dark Angels and a Tactical Marine is the Vets get an extra base attack.

They do this in spite of being more expensive than Tacs.

You can't compare them to Sternguard because the only reason people take Sternguard is for Special Issue Ammo, not the Veteran statline. There's no reason to pay extra for the Veteran statline. So you're paying 4 points over a Tactical for +1 attack. And they're not even scoring. Sternguard can be scoring with Pedro Kantor. They also synergize better with combi-weapons because of Special Issue Ammo. They can get Meltas or Plas and their basic Boltguns can murder anything. They're a swiss army knife. By contrast, your Dark Angel Vets are just Tacticals with +1 attack. They're useless without wargear, and MEQ wargear is always way more expensive and inefficient than Terminators, which are the bread and butter of this dex.

I will agree that Veterans don’t look great on paper from what I have seen here [my book wont be here for another 5-7 days], but you never know sometimes a unit like this turns out to be better.
It looks like how I am planning on lauding them up might be affective. Mostly I am planning on Combi-Plasmas, Plasma Gun and Las Cannon with a couple of Storm Shields to take shots and Power Fist or Power Maul here and there. Podding them in to take out Vehicles or HQs might be a good use of them. They might also do well in a Gun Line with a Dakka Banner behind an ADL.
You can also load them up for close combat with a mix of Power Weapons and Shields they would make good Vanguard Vets out of Land Raider.

Like they have always been, they suffer from being a Jack of Trades. The difference is they could be tooled up to be a master of one, but at a large cost.

A couple things about shields. One, I'm talking about in the context of an Azrael delivery mechanism, in which case I wouldn't get shields. But, they are only 10 points so if they were going it alone I would probably one at least one of them in a unit.

Second, their mileage, I believe, is going to be dependent on their wargear. Their statline is geared towards close combat, but their wargear is a mix of CC and ranged. I think the individual items are extremely expensive per model, so they have to be limited and have "empty bodies" to take the shots to maximize their efficiency.

I also believe another problem is that your Storm Shields are great for taking the storm of AP3 or AP2 fire or CC weapons, but they lose their CCW/pistol bonus, so they should be paired either with a FIst (which is specialist weapon), or with a Melta to maximize the CC of the squad. But then you're putting a lot of points on a model that should be taking a defensive role, which means you're using a 30-40 point model to soak fire, which doesn't sound smart. I personally believe that power weapons, as opposed to fists, should be primarily placed on units with Bolt pistols, because if you're talking about 3 versus 2 Power Weapon attacks on an upgrade that costs as much as another model - have to.

Personally I am thinking about using a unit of Command Squad - since Vets are not going to be scoring anyway. I want to put Azrael in that unit and drop pod them onto a Bike Squad with a homing beacon. That means they will synergize better with Termies and get into CC faster. With Azrael, that Command Squad removes a potential vulnerability in CC, a 4++ invulnerable save. You can also put an apothecary in that squad for a very low point cost. That means the whole unit is 3+/4++ with FNP for a relatively minor cost compared to Azrael. The Drop pod is also cheap, and with the beacon, a reliable delivery mechanism.

Personally, I think that's the only thing that makes sense.

Vets are bad, simple as that. They are just worse chosen. Command squad is not bad though.

This is what i would be looking at with Ravenwing I am unsure on point cost, i can't get the book until next friday (payday!) and i am mostly going off memory!


Sammy on Jetbike
Command Squad w. Banner of Dev and Apothecary
2x Techmarine on Bike (forcefield?)

4x Full Ravenwing Squads w. Typhoons
Landspeeder Shroud
Black Knights as point fillers...


Seems pretty cut and dry, i think Hit&Run provides the most abuse, being able to charge weak CC capable opponents before backing out prior to your turn and driving away again...

 jegsar wrote:
Vets are bad, simple as that. They are just worse chosen. Command squad is not bad though.

Their advantage is that they can take 1 special and 1 heavy at 5 models. They are easy to min/max and they have a good place in a MSU mechwing.

DevianID
Thanks for the battle report man. I coach basketball right now so I have not had the time to get a game in. Seeing other battles really helps on how I kit my guys out. I love the deathwing models so I am leaning that direction.

If you go deathwing i feel like you almost have to do the belial 10 man ds to get their full punch.

so I would go Belial with 2 autocannons and 2 chainfists for popping tanks. The others would be pf/sb.

I'm thinking 2 squads of devs since they are so stinking cheap or one dev and a pred. Throw a ML or 2 with flak for fliers or just las/plas and ignore them.

Then 1 or 2 whirl winds for mobs. Again, they would be a cheap choice to get quick firepower for whatever my termies pop.

I want to put some knights in but for a 2k list It would take my model count way to low i think.

Ill be using vets with 2 ccw stacked with azzy and eziekel. Since there are 10, and they save really well thanks to azzy, they are a hard hitting unit. 180 for 40 ws5 s5 reroll hit attacks out of a land raider is sufficient counter attack to protect the bolter dudes. The alternative is 8 deathwing knights, who dont need the character support, but azzy and eziekel are just so good I dont mind the extra points on them.

DevianID wrote:
Ill be using vets with 2 ccw stacked with azzy and eziekel. Since there are 10, and they save really well thanks to azzy, they are a hard hitting unit. 180 for 40 ws5 s5 reroll hit attacks out of a land raider is sufficient counter attack to protect the bolter dudes. The alternative is 8 deathwing knights, who dont need the character support, but azzy and eziekel are just so good I dont mind the extra points on them.

This was my thought as well. You could put them in a drop pod but that would mean 8 vets + Ezekiel + Azrael. I'm also wondering if a Command Squad is better though with the Apothecary bring FNP to the squad + 2ICs.

Ministry, while the apothecary is nice, I really hate losing the extra 5 models. Don't forget azrael can give his squad fnp on an objective if you need that more than furious or leadership.

DevianID wrote:
Ill be using vets with 2 ccw stacked with azzy and eziekel. Since there are 10, and they save really well thanks to azzy, they are a hard hitting unit. 180 for 40 ws5 s5 reroll hit attacks out of a land raider is sufficient counter attack to protect the bolter dudes. The alternative is 8 deathwing knights, who dont need the character support, but azzy and eziekel are just so good I dont mind the extra points on them.

Where are you getting the str 5 from?

Azeral can pick warlord trait, including furious charge.

As an aside, does seraphicus have anything other than preferred enemy? Because an interrogator Chaplin also has preferred enemy with inner circle versus csm and zealot as well, and with a plasma pistol costs the same.

I am the Ravenwing player that played against Mushkilla in the batrep he posted. Secondly I have been playing this game seriously since 3rd edition, so I have many games under my belt.

 Volkov wrote:
That is basically, a picture perfect report of how NOT to play Ravenwing. Few armies Ravenwing can take just head on like that. Light eldar come to mind but thats about it...I would have hid the bulk of my force out of sight and used the 48" inch range of the typhoons to take down some ravagers/raiders, forcing them to close, and then counter attack with hopefully full strength bike squads.

Uh huh... and my 3 typhoons were suppose to outgun 2 ravagers, 4 raiders, and 2 reaver squads while his 3 splintercannons picked off my bikes. Lets not even get into T1 having nightfight, to which means if I stayed out 48" away, I could not even think of shooting him, while his entire army could touch mine. Great tactic there guy...

andystache wrote: The Landspeeder config struck me as odd, why put such short ranged weapons on so mobile a platform. Having Hit & Run on the bikes feels like you should be charging them into combat, but I'm thinking that's going to be more useful to make them a durable speed bump. Slide some bikers between that big combat unit and your main force. If the RW get slaughtered, well at least the high casualty rate is in the fluff and the enemy should be in prime shooting range, if they survive the opponents charge they leave combat and go back for more with a charge bonus or just blast away with the rest of the army

The reason for the typhoons and HF on the landspeeders was this. First off the typhoons gave me some long range AT that I lacked, and the HF were for pulling warriors off of objectives in terrain or their crashed raiders. Whether its a 3+ coversave or 2+ (depending on how you play going to ground in area terrain) its difficult to pull of 10 man units. Also the reason T1 I turboed the two speeders with the darkshrouds was to get the bonus to their coversave... which did nothing sadly...

As for hit and run I also agree that they shouldnt be in assault, but its more of a way to get out of it if your bikes are ever caught. Sadly it was either get shot by a ton of splinterfire, or go into combat where Mush needed 6s to wound me... Ill take combat anyday in that situation.

Basically there were several factors that saved Mush from a table. 1st was deployment. Having the table longways saved him from getting so much bolterfire in his face T1. Secondly was Nightfight, which saved his ravagers and raiders from the brunt of my AT T1. Finally was my terrible... terrible rolling. But that happens and there is nothing you can do about it.

It was a good game none-the-less, and the only thing I would probably change would be dropping the assault bikes and picking up more speeders instead. Also I have a feeling that the command squad is just too expensive to run in 1500 pts, but I would definately run it again at 2k

 TedNugent wrote:

You can't compare them to Sternguard because the only reason people take Sternguard is for Special Issue Ammo,

The only winning armies I've seen that include Sternguard include them because of combi-weapons, not bolter ammo.

Marines, including the new Dark Angels, don't have points and game effecient offense. Combi-marines may only have offense once, but games don't last a million turns, they usually last 3.

Shadows Revenge wrote:
I am the Ravenwing player that played against Mushkilla in the batrep he posted. Secondly I have been playing this game seriously since 3rd edition, so I have many games under my belt.

 Volkov wrote:
That is basically, a picture perfect report of how NOT to play Ravenwing. Few armies Ravenwing can take just head on like that. Light eldar come to mind but thats about it...I would have hid the bulk of my force out of sight and used the 48" inch range of the typhoons to take down some ravagers/raiders, forcing them to close, and then counter attack with hopefully full strength bike squads.

Uh huh... and my 3 typhoons were suppose to outgun 2 ravagers, 4 raiders, and 2 reaver squads while his 3 splintercannons picked off my bikes. Lets not even get into T1 having nightfight, to which means if I stayed out 48" away, I could not even think of shooting him, while his entire army could touch mine. Great tactic there guy...

andystache wrote: The Landspeeder config struck me as odd, why put such short ranged weapons on so mobile a platform. Having Hit & Run on the bikes feels like you should be charging them into combat, but I'm thinking that's going to be more useful to make them a durable speed bump. Slide some bikers between that big combat unit and your main force. If the RW get slaughtered, well at least the high casualty rate is in the fluff and the enemy should be in prime shooting range, if they survive the opponents charge they leave combat and go back for more with a charge bonus or just blast away with the rest of the army

The reason for the typhoons and HF on the landspeeders was this. First off the typhoons gave me some long range AT that I lacked, and the HF were for pulling warriors off of objectives in terrain or their crashed raiders. Whether its a 3+ coversave or 2+ (depending on how you play going to ground in area terrain) its difficult to pull of 10 man units. Also the reason T1 I turboed the two speeders with the darkshrouds was to get the bonus to their coversave... which did nothing sadly...

As for hit and run I also agree that they shouldnt be in assault, but its more of a way to get out of it if your bikes are ever caught. Sadly it was either get shot by a ton of splinterfire, or go into combat where Mush needed 6s to wound me... Ill take combat anyday in that situation.

Basically there were several factors that saved Mush from a table. 1st was deployment. Having the table longways saved him from getting so much bolterfire in his face T1. Secondly was Nightfight, which saved his ravagers and raiders from the brunt of my AT T1. Finally was my terrible... terrible rolling. But that happens and there is nothing you can do about it.

It was a good game none-the-less, and the only thing I would probably change would be dropping the assault bikes and picking up more speeders instead. Also I have a feeling that the command squad is just too expensive to run in 1500 pts, but I would definately run it again at 2k

Personally I don't rate flamer templates against Dark Eldar. My most common opponent is a long time DE player and one of his favorite units is Scourges w/Haywire blasters, so I go into those fights knowing I have to keep my distance. Going to agree that against DE Speeders>ABs. A Dark Lance will ruin either units day, but the Speeder can't be touch by splinter fire. We probably differ since you run a pure RW army (at least in that one) and I usually run Iron Wing primary with a splash of RW and rarely DW.

Yep for 28 points a veteran with a combi weapon. So if you are assuming that your sternguard will die then it is in fact cheaper to run the dark angels veterans.

Unit of 10 combat squad-ed out of a drop pod to take out two high profile targets turn one would be quite interesting. For 300 points it would be interesting to see. I could see it reliably killing that many points on the turn it shows up(especially if they have vehicles). Few armies will have nothing worth targeting with two combi melta or plasma squads. Even if it just forces them to turtle up, opening avenues of advance for you then it is a solid investment. Also they still need to kill 10 marines which is not the easiest in the world.

I'm hearing very little enthusiasm for the old Dualwing (i.e. Ravenwing plus Deathwing) combo, and far more for pure Ravenwing or pure Deathwing. Is that just because pure Ravenwing and pure Deathwing have become more viable builds, or has Dualwing actually gotten worse?

One of my thoughts for Veterans is to hold one of the Objectives on your side of the board. I know they cant Score, but everyone forgets they can Deny. Then load them up with Combi-Flamers and dare someone to Assault your position.

Uh huh... and my 3 typhoons were suppose to outgun 2 ravagers, 4 raiders, and 2 reaver squads while his 3 splintercannons picked off my bikes. Lets not even get into T1 having nightfight, to which means if I stayed out 48" away, I could not even think of shooting him, while his entire army could touch mine. Great tactic there guy...

Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you. And that if the difference between a melta shot or not, rapid fire or not....dictate movement for the game. Force him to come where you want. You basically just re-enacted the poem charge of the light brigade.

"'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death"

 Leth wrote:
Yep for 28 points a veteran with a combi weapon. So if you are assuming that your sternguard will die then it is in fact cheaper to run the dark angels veterans.

Unit of 10 combat squad-ed out of a drop pod to take out two high profile targets turn one would be quite interesting. For 300 points it would be interesting to see. I could see it reliably killing that many points on the turn it shows up(especially if they have vehicles). Few armies will have nothing worth targeting with two combi melta or plasma squads. Even if it just forces them to turtle up, opening avenues of advance for you then it is a solid investment. Also they still need to kill 10 marines which is not the easiest in the world.

Exactly. Without my book here, I can't remember, but can one of em take an Auspex?

 Volkov wrote:

Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you.

Everything toting a Dark Lance in a DE army can move 12" and fire everything.

 Clang wrote:
I'm hearing very little enthusiasm for the old Dualwing (i.e. Ravenwing plus Deathwing) combo, and far more for pure Ravenwing or pure Deathwing. Is that just because pure Ravenwing and pure Deathwing have become more viable builds, or has Dualwing actually gotten worse?

I think Dualwing has gotten slightly worse due to a few factors (new DW Assault rules, new reserve rules, change in RW Squad rules) but only slightly. I feel like most people are just zeroing in on single Wing instead of looking at the whole army. Personally, I feel DW and RW only armies are much worse options, but only because the rest of the codex has gotten much better (so opportunity cost is higher). In a 6th edition world, I feel like either single wing will have a hard time, while multi-wing options give you a beautifully balanced army.

I tend to agree with the general statement that multi-wings are, competitively, a better option in terms of sheer choice and flexibility. You can do a lot more now with just power armoured dudes than you could before.

That being said, no one will ever convince me that playing an army entirely consisting of terminators isn't cool.

Im playing a multi-wing army built around Azrael in a tournament this weekend so ill see how it goes. I suspect that the strongest builds for Dark Angels will be multiwing. Getting the right mix of green, bone and black will be the interesting part.

 Volkov wrote:
Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you. And that if the difference between a melta shot or not, rapid fire or not....dictate movement for the game. Force him to come where you want. You basically just re-enacted the poem charge of the light brigade.

"'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death"

Ravagers have Airial Assault, which allows them to move 12" and shoot everything. Raiders can move 12" and shoot their gun at full BS. Meaning 36" range gun + 12" movement = 48"...

Shadows Revenge wrote:

 Volkov wrote:
Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you. And that if the difference between a melta shot or not, rapid fire or not....dictate movement for the game. Force him to come where you want. You basically just re-enacted the poem charge of the light brigade.

"'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death"

Ravagers have Airial Assault, which allows them to move 12" and shoot everything. Raiders can move 12" and shoot their gun at full BS. Meaning 36" range gun + 12" movement = 48"...

But you still need to move that 12, so what he's saying is if you move and measure correctly you can lure the raiders exactly where you want them.

The reason why dual wing is worse is 2 fold. First, belial has no scatter and a teleport homer, meaning bike Homers are no longer auto include for deathwing. Second, if you go first the bikes can't assault, meaning small arms or heavy weapon teams will be free to shoot on turn 1 at whatever threat is most pressing, be them termies or bikes.

So while deathwing got a better deathwing assault, 6th Ed made scout much worse on the bikes, and introduced overwatch so the bikes have a hard time assaulting shooty units now. Before, a multimelta attack bike alone was enough to tie up a long fang pack on turn one so no missiles frag your deepstriking termies. Now there is a real chance that overwatch can and will wound and kill that attack bike, freeing them to shoot your termies.

DevianID wrote:
The reason why dual wing is worse is 2 fold. First, belial has no scatter and a teleport homer, meaning bike Homers are no longer auto include for deathwing. Second, if you go first the bikes can't assault, meaning small arms or heavy weapon teams will be free to shoot on turn 1 at whatever threat is most pressing, be them termies or bikes.

So while deathwing got a better deathwing assault, 6th Ed made scout much worse on the bikes, and introduced overwatch so the bikes have a hard time assaulting shooty units now. Before, a multimelta attack bike alone was enough to tie up a long fang pack on turn one so no missiles frag your deepstriking termies. Now there is a real chance that overwatch can and will wound and kill that attack bike, freeing them to shoot your termies.

The key here is to use DW Assault effectively you MUST have units to put on the board. With the update you dictate who comes in T1/T2, but you're still restricted to only having 50% of your army in reserve. DW are not forced to teleport in so they do count against the 50%. Ever 3 man biker squad you take gives you another Termie squad teleporting in. Not to mention basing your entire drop strategy on your opponent not blasting Belial to the warp is a bit to tenuous for my tastes.

EDIT: I find the best army lists for me follow the fluff. Green wing forms a firing position, usually with Backs and a Mortis dread with dual autocannons. Bikes/Speeders hit a flank and termies drop it to crush that flank. having a good base of fire gives me flexibility to counter the other list once I see what the opponent has. Hordes get a firing line, mechs get DW in the side armor, glass cannons get bum rushed

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

But you still need to move that 12, so what he's saying is if you move and measure correctly you can lure the raiders exactly where you want them.

A good DE player will just move flat out in such a way that he is where he want to be, get's a 4+ cover save and your landspeeder can't get away (within 24"). Now he is leading you, you either shoot him or move flat out away. Either way you will get the first shot, but this way you are not controlling where the ravager is (as he can be anywhere within 24" of your speeder), and the ravager gets a better save.

As for outmanoeuvring the DE list, it's a lot easier said then done, splinter cannons have a range of 36" so you can't dance out of range of the warriors. There is also a large highly mobile pressure element in the form of 18 reavers, who will both snap up pain tokens form your bikes on the turn they come in. If you don't have flamers your tough out of luck, you're not going to take on the reavers or get the warriors out of cover.

In the report I think it was safe for Shadow to assume he would take out at least one raider (with only a 4+ cover save). With an assault cannon, a plasma cannon, 3 plasma talons and 36 twinlinked bolter shots, the bolters alone average over 5 glancing hits! First blood is also massive in the relic mission, especially with me going second with so many reavers as they can easily kill your relic runner on the last turn (48" move) forcing you to drop it and making the game go to secondary objectives.

As the DE player I thought I was going to be losing raiders left right and centre. Hanging back would have given me space to move out and systematically eliminate. At-least from my perspective.

Mush - Have you faced a Mortis Dread with two sets of Autocannons?

That's been my go to to drop Raiders/Ravagers from the sky. That and trading a Typhoon for a Ravager. I can usually drop the Rav with the two kraks, but I know that speeders a gonner

andystache wrote:
Mush - Have you faced a Mortis Dread with two sets of Autocannons?

That's been my go to to drop Raiders/Ravagers from the sky. That and trading a Typhoon for a Ravager. I can usually drop the Rav with the two kraks, but I know that speeders a gonner

Yes they are fantastic, and that's one of the many reasons I think greenwing looks like the strongest set up in the book. I find pure ravenwing or pure deathwing to be too constricting, especially when the book has really well priced tactical squads and devastators. At least that's what I think (As an outsider looking in).

 Mushkilla wrote:

andystache wrote:
Mush - Have you faced a Mortis Dread with two sets of Autocannons?

That's been my go to to drop Raiders/Ravagers from the sky. That and trading a Typhoon for a Ravager. I can usually drop the Rav with the two kraks, but I know that speeders a gonner

Yes they are fantastic, and that's one of the many reasons I think greenwing looks like the strongest set up in the book. I find pure ravenwing or pure deathwing to be too constricting, especially when the book has really well priced tactical squads and devastators. As an outsider looking in.

I find some of the best ideas come from the people I play against, they read through the book looking for things to kill rather than how to build the army. This weekend we're throwing down 2k DA vs DE grudge match and I'm thinking my FA is going to be 2-3 Typhoons, a Darkshroud, and maybe, maybe some Black Knights.

I'm thinking the TL Assault Cannons on Backs might be worth a look against DE, but I'm not sure how I feel about the 24" range, that's the same range as a haywire blaster and that gun has me shook

I really like the darkshroud, it seem to fulfil three rolls: It gives your army stealth, it helps bikes win combat (+1 to combat results within 12"), and it draws a lot of anti tank fire away from your regular landspeeders. It has a 3+ save just for moving, it's very cheap, shooting it is a bad idea, but if you don't the rest of the army will be better, it's a catch-22 for your opponent.

As for the assault cannon (for the darkshroud) I don't think I would bother, it just makes it more expensive for little gain, a lot of the time you will be wanting to turbo boost the darkshroud for a 2+ cover save, or repositioning to protect a different group of bikes. Not getting the assault cannons means you don't feel guilty when you move flat out. Also like you said the range is a limiting factor, 36" means you can lay down some fire without taking risks. This is even more apparent now that you can't remove models that were not in range of the shooting unit at the time of shooting (latest FAQ), meaning you need to be closer than 24" to kill more than one model with the assault cannons.

Hope that helps.

They FAQ'ed out the stealth on it, so it's only normal cover saves it gets.

 Compel wrote:
They FAQ'ed out the stealth on it, so it's only normal cover saves it gets.

It has shrouded and jink, so that means when it moves it has a 3+ save (5+ jink +2 for shrouded) and when it moves flat out it has a 2+ cover save (4+ jink +2 for shrouded). Isn't that what I said?

 Compel wrote:
They FAQ'ed out the stealth on it, so it's only normal cover saves it gets.

You know except that it's Shrouded... and a fast skimmer... so moving 1" gives it a 5+ jink cover save and shrouded lowers that to 3+... and if you move flat out it improves by another +1 dropping it to 2+

Mush - I was more thinking on the TL Assault Cannons on the new Razorback loadout (new to me at least), but your points about the Darkshroud still have merit. I think I'll be using HBs a lot more on speeders now that we pay for the MM upgrade. Although fighting a 6th Ed city fight a Typhoon with MM is just... well it's a floating wrecking ball that blows up buildings but good

EDIT: Mush you and I are a little too on point today

I was gonna do a dualwing force with DA, but with the new changes to vector strikes, I feel Ravenwing would be massacred by any CSM army with 2 or 3 Heldrakes. So its pure Deathwing for me!

 Leth wrote:
Yep for 28 points a veteran with a combi weapon. So if you are assuming that your sternguard will die then it is in fact cheaper to run the dark angels veterans.

Unit of 10 combat squad-ed out of a drop pod to take out two high profile targets turn one would be quite interesting. For 300 points it would be interesting to see. I could see it reliably killing that many points on the turn it shows up(especially if they have vehicles). Few armies will have nothing worth targeting with two combi melta or plasma squads. Even if it just forces them to turtle up, opening avenues of advance for you then it is a solid investment. Also they still need to kill 10 marines which is not the easiest in the world.

Sternguard will die because Sternguard are actually dangerous after their combis are expended. Because unlike DA Vets, Sternguard Boltguns are actually a threat. They threaten MCs, MEQs, Orks, Guardsmen with equal indifference. For 2 points you'd be nuts to take the DA Vets w/ Combis given the choice.

It's dubious, I think, that anyone would even bother shooting a unit of DA Vets after they've expended their Combi Boltguns.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yep for 28 points a veteran with a combi weapon. So if you are assuming that your sternguard will die then it is in fact cheaper to run the dark angels veterans.

Unit of 10 combat squad-ed out of a drop pod to take out two high profile targets turn one would be quite interesting. For 300 points it would be interesting to see. I could see it reliably killing that many points on the turn it shows up(especially if they have vehicles). Few armies will have nothing worth targeting with two combi melta or plasma squads. Even if it just forces them to turtle up, opening avenues of advance for you then it is a solid investment. Also they still need to kill 10 marines which is not the easiest in the world.

Sternguard will die because Sternguard are actually dangerous after their combis are expended. Because unlike DA Vets, Sternguard Boltguns are actually a threat. They threaten MCs, MEQs, Orks, Guardsmen with equal indifference. For 2 points you'd be nuts to take the DA Vets w/ Combis given the choice.

It's dubious, I think, that anyone would even bother shooting a unit of DA Vets after they've expended their Combi Boltguns.

Can I play you? Please? As others have pointed out a 6 man squad of Vets in a Razorback with combi-flamers can be a lynchpin in a greenwing or combined wing. Park them in front of your main firing line and just let someone charge. I'll take 6d3 automatic hits for overwatch and then 12 attacks in CC against just about anything, especially big and scary. You're not making it through them without taking some damage (dice willing) and now you're right in front of the rest of my guns.

Alternately you can field them with PP/BP and stick a Libby in with them and now you have a unit that fires 5-6 S7 and 5-6 S4 shots, rerolling then charging in with 20 attacks + the Libby's

andystache wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


Sternguard will die because Sternguard are actually dangerous after their combis are expended. Because unlike DA Vets, Sternguard Boltguns are actually a threat. They threaten MCs, MEQs, Orks, Guardsmen with equal indifference. For 2 points you'd be nuts to take the DA Vets w/ Combis given the choice.

It's dubious, I think, that anyone would even bother shooting a unit of DA Vets after they've expended their Combi Boltguns.

Can I play you? Please? As others have pointed out a 6 man squad of Vets in a Razorback with combi-flamers can be a lynchpin in a greenwing or combined wing. Park them in front of your main firing line and just let someone charge. I'll take 6d3 automatic hits for overwatch and then 12 attacks in CC against just about anything, especially big and scary. You're not making it through them without taking some damage (dice willing) and now you're right in front of the rest of my guns.

Alternately you can field them with PP/BP and stick a Libby in with them and now you have a unit that fires 5-6 S7 and 5-6 S4 shots, rerolling then charging in with 20 attacks + the Libby's

I just said it was dubious whether anyone would even shoot at them, why would I charge them if they had combi-flamers? If they had combi-flamers, the last thing I would do is charge them. If your strategy is to spend nearly 30p a model and just -hope- someone charges you....

 TedNugent wrote:

andystache wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


Sternguard will die because Sternguard are actually dangerous after their combis are expended. Because unlike DA Vets, Sternguard Boltguns are actually a threat. They threaten MCs, MEQs, Orks, Guardsmen with equal indifference. For 2 points you'd be nuts to take the DA Vets w/ Combis given the choice.

It's dubious, I think, that anyone would even bother shooting a unit of DA Vets after they've expended their Combi Boltguns.

Can I play you? Please? As others have pointed out a 6 man squad of Vets in a Razorback with combi-flamers can be a lynchpin in a greenwing or combined wing. Park them in front of your main firing line and just let someone charge. I'll take 6d3 automatic hits for overwatch and then 12 attacks in CC against just about anything, especially big and scary. You're not making it through them without taking some damage (dice willing) and now you're right in front of the rest of my guns.

Alternately you can field them with PP/BP and stick a Libby in with them and now you have a unit that fires 5-6 S7 and 5-6 S4 shots, rerolling then charging in with 20 attacks + the Libby's

I just said it was dubious whether anyone would even shoot at them, why would I charge them if they had combi-flamers? If they had combi-flamers, the last thing I would do is charge them. If your strategy is to spend nearly 30p a model and just -hope- someone charges you....

So you're going to go around my unit to avoid the flamers? I'm very ok with that since I run gun line Iron Wing. The more I force you to maneuver the more time I have to shoot you. That's a specific load out for specific armies, I was more pointing out that if you don't rate that unit to be shot I have no problem because they'll quietly come in and ruin your day.

For much less you can give all of the vets Storm Bolters, one of the most underrated options in that codex

TedNugent, on the topic of combi's the vets do have something that makes them more appealing than sternguard, which is the salvo banner. Since you need to advance your tacticals and bolter banner into the enemies range anyway, the turn after you fire your combi's you will probably be in bolter banner range unless your pod had some horriffic scatter, and even then you can move a few models in the vet unit to daisy chain them to the banner, losing the salvo on the models that move but preserving it on the models that dont move.

The biggest issue I have with the bolter banner is what to do to open up the transports in the first place, so you can blot out the sun with bolts. In many lists combi veterans will be the answer to that question.

Also, I must say its not an either or approach. You CAN have sternguard if you want, what with them being battle brothers in 2 different codexes to the DA.

As to the plas pistol option, I dont like it. While I like plasma, a pistol priced at 15 points is way too much. Combiplas is valued at 5 points per 12 inch plasma shot. A plasma pistol needs to shoot 3 times to match that same shot per point efficiency. That is completely unrealistic. Yes, you get extra attacks in close combat with the plasma pistol, but if you want to be better in cc then you take a mix of combi plas and power weapons. On a 10 man squad, the 150 you would spend on 10 plasma pistols gets you 10 combi plas and 2 power fists. You lose out on total plasma shots after you have fired 3 times with the plasma pistols (and no one died to over heat on the first shots lowering your shot count) but trade 16 s4 attacks on the charge for 6 s8 ap 2 attacks.

 lord of corn wrote:
Im playing a multi-wing army built around Azrael in a tournament this weekend so ill see how it goes. I suspect that the strongest builds for Dark Angels will be multiwing. Getting the right mix of green, bone and black will be the interesting part.

Batreps and list please :3

Also if you are willing to ignore the veterans, then sweet free linebreaker for me.

Anyone else notice that azrael cant be taken in an allied detachment due to the requirement that he must be your warlord.

Same page azraels master crafted combi weapon... the way its described makes it sound like it has 2 plasma guns.

Kind of sucks that dark angels lack codex psychic powers...

final note: I heard someone mention a 20 model land raider. I dont see any above 16.

I think there is a 20 model FW landraider.
Don't ignore a unit of combi flamers... use bolters...

RW, DW, Multiwing, DA spam are all good options and they are all rock paper squat with other armies.

A majority of the time...
DW beats CSM
RW beats Elites/AT/other fast attack choices
DA spam (min/max, or just mass tacs and devs), beat same idea in other SM armies

Only tournament competitive army (that will be able to fight everything) is gonna be a properly balanced multiwing and a good general behind it.

Here is a question I have while trying to put together some preliminary lists: For those running Dualwing and taking Azrael, what are you doing with him? He can't deep strike or move in quickly on a bike like some other HQ choices, I like his statline but I don't really know how to effectively use him. T4 scares me as it would be easy to have a S8 hit ID him and lose my warlord.

Only thing I can think of is to throw him in a LR with some DW Knights and truck it up to the frontline so he can get in CC and can be made T5 by their Fortress Shields ability (since he has Inner Circle he can benefit from this, correct?)

Yeah, Azrael in his artificer armor with 2+ regular and 4+ invul though is close enough to a terminator to pass for one. In dual wing lists his bonus is making both DW and RW scoring. However his squad 4+ is not that great spent on on 5+ PF/SB termies.

I'm thinking of running him with a vet squad kitted out with chainswords and a melta or two in a drop pod in my wing list.

 Tomb King wrote:
Anyone else notice that azrael cant be taken in an allied detachment due to the requirement that he must be your warlord.

Same page azraels master crafted combi weapon... the way its described makes it sound like it has 2 plasma guns.

Kind of sucks that dark angels lack codex psychic powers...

final note: I heard someone mention a 20 model land raider. I dont see any above 16.

The FAQ specified that Azrael only has to be your warlord if he is chosen in a primary attachment. He can still be used as an ally.

Although Dark Angels don't have their own psyker tables, they do have 4 schools including Divination, which vanilla marines & chaos do not have. We also don't know if armies are supposed to get their own psyker schools in 6th edition or if it was a way to make CSM more unique.


Another thing Company Veterans can do is drop their bolter for a chainsword for free. If I wanted some assault marines, it'd cost 170 points + free rhino/drop pod (-35) for base 1 attack and only sgt can get a power weapon vs 180 for 10 company vets with 2 CCWs and base 2 attack where every model can get a power weapon.


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tidalwake wrote:
Here is a question I have while trying to put together some preliminary lists: For those running Dualwing and taking Azrael, what are you doing with him? He can't deep strike or move in quickly on a bike like some other HQ choices, I like his statline but I don't really know how to effectively use him. T4 scares me as it would be easy to have a S8 hit ID him and lose my warlord.

Only thing I can think of is to throw him in a LR with some DW Knights and truck it up to the frontline so he can get in CC and can be made T5 by their Fortress Shields ability (since he has Inner Circle he can benefit from this, correct?)

No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

Wow for nearly one hundred points you can take a banner for FnP. Is anyone ever gonna pay that much for FnP? Great area of effect but for a one wound model that is a hefty cost to pay.

Nivek5150 wrote:


No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

If I remember correctly, Fortress of shields requires inner circle to get the +1 toughness and two models with fortress of shields in B2B. At least in the unit description but somewhere else the book describes it as something completely different.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:


No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

If I remember correctly, Fortress of shields requires inner circle to get the +1 toughness and two models with fortress of shields in B2B. At least in the unit description but somewhere else the book describes it as something completely different.

Yeah, the more I look at it the more I cringe. The unit description says any Inner Circle can get the bonus, the reference in the back says "Fortress of Shields: If in base contact with at least two other models with this special rule, the model has Toughness 5." That can be interpreted as only models with FoS can get it, and it can also be interpreted as ANY model can get it and becomes toughness FIVE instead of +1 toughness. So I guess get some ally guard to bubble wrap it and make them skip from toughness 3 to toughness 5 suddenly? I gotta think the RAI was one of the first two.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomb King wrote:
Wow for nearly one hundred points you can take a banner for FnP. Is anyone ever gonna pay that much for FnP? Great area of effect but for a one wound model that is a hefty cost to pay.

Theory: In the Sacred Standards portion, it is listed in the order of Retribution, Fortitude, Devastation. But in the pricing list, it is listed as Retribution, Devastation, Fortitude. Given how many errors are in this book, is it possible the Salvo banner is meant to be 85 and the FNP banner 65? Hmm...

Somebody mentioned podding in veterans near Belial. But podding requires locator beacon, not teleport homer. Did I miss some point, because I think the only place in the whole codex you can get a locator beacon is in a drop pod? It is not in the special wargear -section.

All bikes also have the teleport homer, not locator beacon.

So, podding is full scatter if I didnt miss something here.

The reference is just an abridged version of the shild rules, you can't use that for primary rules as it is obviously incomplete.

The fortress of shields does have the ability to buff someone like Belial to t5 provided he is in base contact with 2 knights. Usually shield walls work by covering each other, which is obviously how they modeled the knights.

pods hardly scatter though...
Shield is from unit entry first
Oh and i'd trade all CSM psypowers for divination powers. Hell i'd trade ALL powers for just rolling divination, the only thing that comes close is bio.

Timmon wrote:
Somebody mentioned podding in veterans near Belial. But podding requires locator beacon, not teleport homer. Did I miss some point, because I think the only place in the whole codex you can get a locator beacon is in a drop pod? It is not in the special wargear -section.

All bikes also have the teleport homer, not locator beacon.

So, podding is full scatter if I didnt miss something here.

Locator Beacons are in the vehicle wargear section

DevianID wrote:
The reference is just an abridged version of the shild rules, you can't use that for primary rules as it is obviously incomplete.

The fortress of shields does have the ability to buff someone like Belial to t5 provided he is in base contact with 2 knights. Usually shield walls work by covering each other, which is obviously how they modeled the knights.

Yeah I'd get it if it required the person to have a storm shield as well. You show up for a phalanx without a shield, you're of no use to anybody. Am I supposed to imagine Belial, greatest of all Dark Angels warriors, hiding behind a couple Deathwing Knights? Besides, standing next to 2 guys who have shields doesn't exactly constitute a "shield wall". Although calling 5 guys with shields a fortress seems rather silly to me, too. I mean, I know you can't expect every rule on the tabletop to translate perfectly to the fluff, but the more I think about this rule the more it bugs me.

I'm wondering about Belial's teleport homer ...
A lot of people are thinking about dropping him on turn1 and then dropping a second wave on turn two around him.
Won't work though as the DWA rule specifically that you pick one turn for the units selected for the DWA and that they will drop on this one turn.
So apart from fielding him on the ground and dropping reinforcements around, what's the use of the homer on Belial ?

The lack of EW on Belial is slightly disturbing (as I always imagined him as kinda like Lysander, if Lysander made Termies scoring), but as GW is moving away from EW as a whole, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

And Belial's teleport homer may come in handy for stuff like Gate of Infinity or something...

Belial got handled by Gazgul. Interesting fluff. Every route I work trying to get these relic standards into my army results in way too many points spent just to unlock them and then even more to get the banner itself on a 1 wound model. :(

Nivek5150 wrote:

No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

You are incorrect here, read the codex again page 45, any model with Inner Circle in base with two models having the Fortress Shield rule has its' toughness increased by 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nivek5150 wrote:

Yeah, the more I look at it the more I cringe. The unit description says any Inner Circle can get the bonus, the reference in the back says "Fortress of Shields: If in base contact with at least two other models with this special rule, the model has Toughness 5." That can be interpreted as only models with FoS can get it, and it can also be interpreted as ANY model can get it and becomes toughness FIVE instead of +1 toughness. So I guess get some ally guard to bubble wrap it and make them skip from toughness 3 to toughness 5 suddenly? I gotta think the RAI was one of the first two.

No, it still requires Inner Circle to gain the toughness bonus, since there are no models with Inner Circle with a toughness of less than 4 it doesn't really end up being a big deal that they reworded it to 5 toughness instead of +1, no idea why they put it that way though. Can't use it on allies or greenwing or ravenwing even. Pretty much just HQ's and other Deathwing with the Inner Circle rule.

TanKoL wrote:
I'm wondering about Belial's teleport homer ...
A lot of people are thinking about dropping him on turn1 and then dropping a second wave on turn two around him.
Won't work though as the DWA rule specifically that you pick one turn for the units selected for the DWA and that they will drop on this one turn.
So apart from fielding him on the ground and dropping reinforcements around, what's the use of the homer on Belial ?

You can choose not to DWA your terminators I guess. Then they can arrive with normal reserves from deepstrike from turn 2 onward.

Also, in most cases, whether Fortress of Shields is applied to the entire unit, attached ICs or your mum, only matters with regards to Instant Death. The majority Toughness of the unit will usually be T5 now (even if you put four or more Knights in a line or three in a triangle and two separate 2" away). In case of attached ICs or your mum, you can Look Out Sir! to avoid instant death to STR 8 or 9 weaponry.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:


No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

If I remember correctly, Fortress of shields requires inner circle to get the +1 toughness and two models with fortress of shields in B2B. At least in the unit description but somewhere else the book describes it as something completely different.

What happened to the majority toughness rule in the BRB pg25 that says "roll to wound using the Toughness value of the majority of the engaged foe." As long as enough of the squad is in base to base the whole squad should be T5 (with the special inner circle rule).

I haven't read the fluff description of the Fortress of Shields ability, but I don't find it unreasonable that they are so proficient in using their shields (which are so much larger than standard storm shields anyway; the size of kite shields) that they can act as Shield Man for their leaders, fullfilling a bodyguard role.
That is my take on that. As other point out, its not exactly relevant.

The issue could only really come up if you had a character start tanking str8/9 wounds draigo style. Even then it is not that big a deal.

I think that veterans are potentially more useful than people think. They can essentially be a suicide squad for, I'll admit, a good sum of points. But the distruption they can cause could be worth it. As mentioned before, just because they can't score doesn' t mean they can't contest, effectively denying your opponent a point. You could use them to kill scouts off of an aegis line and then use that aegis line to kill you ropponents flyers/ as cover for your own units. Strong linebreaker unit potentially too. Miced with DW or possibly RW they can certainly cause disruption and a 'sandwhich effect' splitting your opponent's fire to get your DW dropped in more safely etc. Plus, if you have enough units on the table, half your pods and all your DW can arrive turn 1 wherever they need to. It's a lot of dakka right in your opponent's face. Used correctly I think they could be good.

They can also be used as a bodyguard unit for someone like Azrael, and give them some decent cc punch in power armor form, something that DA do not have very commonly.

-VardenV2

Yeah, vets as combi platforms and azrael bodyguards are the 2 best uses I can find for them.

Anyone got an opinion on Deathwing-ing Rifleman Dreads? The upped BS is negligible with both guns being TL, the upped WS is pointless (any time someone gets to my Mortis I write him off as dead), but the rerolling on the damage table can make a difference.

Also I hear that you can take load outs other than two TL Autocannons, I just can't imagine why you would

tidalwake wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:

No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

You are incorrect here, read the codex again page 45, any model with Inner Circle in base with two models having the Fortress Shield rule has its' toughness increased by 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nivek5150 wrote:

Yeah, the more I look at it the more I cringe. The unit description says any Inner Circle can get the bonus, the reference in the back says "Fortress of Shields: If in base contact with at least two other models with this special rule, the model has Toughness 5." That can be interpreted as only models with FoS can get it, and it can also be interpreted as ANY model can get it and becomes toughness FIVE instead of +1 toughness. So I guess get some ally guard to bubble wrap it and make them skip from toughness 3 to toughness 5 suddenly? I gotta think the RAI was one of the first two.

No, it still requires Inner Circle to gain the toughness bonus, since there are no models with Inner Circle with a toughness of less than 4 it doesn't really end up being a big deal that they reworded it to 5 toughness instead of +1, no idea why they put it that way though. Can't use it on allies or greenwing or ravenwing even. Pretty much just HQ's and other Deathwing with the Inner Circle rule.

As I said, I don't think this is how it works and I would never play it this way. But I can see someone trying to argue it, because I've seen cringe-worthy attempts at breaking the game by rules lawyers before. My issue with the rule is that it isn't practical fluff-wise and it is written different ways.

Magister187 wrote:I haven't read the fluff description of the Fortress of Shields ability, but I don't find it unreasonable that they are so proficient in using their shields (which are so much larger than standard storm shields anyway; the size of kite shields) that they can act as Shield Man for their leaders, fullfilling a bodyguard role.

"In battle, the Deathwing Knights are a heavy shock force - teleporting to the fight with shields locked. With incoming fire ricocheting off them, the Knights march for the greatest threat with impunity, first slamming into them with their mighty storm shields, before setting about the foe with their maces and flails."

This is the only mention of how they use their shields.

With the decrease in price on venerable it's not a terrible option, but since hull points exist it does not really increase survivability that much. Also, on a pen even with a reroll your still going to be taken out of the fight a bit via shaken or similar results.

So for a tl auto dread I would skip the dw upgrade as like you said your not benefiting much from the ws and bs upgrade on that dread loadout, and the survivability bonus isn't great to begin with.

Regarding Wall of Shields, BRB says that you roll against the majority T in a unit. It also explicitly states that if you have 2 different toughness values tied you pick the highest. Page 14 in the tiny rulebook (Dark Vengeance pocketbook) entry "Multiple Toughness Values."

This applies even if there is a single toughness 5 model and a single toughness 4 model in a unit - both count as T5. This is also the case in close combat as it states on page 25 under "Multiple Toughness Values" in the Assault section.

It's stupid in my opinion, but that is how it is written.

e.g. the way the Deathwing Knights entry is written, you would need to have one model in B2B contact with 2 models. This would result in 3 T5 models and 2 T4 models. The T4 models could be kept at max (2") cohesion. Any wound rolls would have to be tested against the majority value per the rulebook in both CC and shooting, e.g. all wound rolls would be rolled against T5. In effect you get the benefit of T5 even though not every model in the unit is T5. This allows you to avoid some of the dangers associated with blast weapons. It also means that you could add an independent character such as Belial into the unit and he could benefit from the Toughness 5 in wound rolls even though he is effectively Toughness 4 as long as at least 3 models in the unit are in base to base contact. Per the rules as written.

I just realized that you can take up to FIVE land speeder per slot...

Hmmmm... 3 five-man speeders with Cyclone ML... Not much can withstand that much fire powah. o.O

taht much Av10 isn't quite as scary as you might think.

Coyote81 wrote:
taht much Av10 isn't quite as scary as you might think.

Beg to differ. But, YMMV.

Put ML + HB and it's a dakka storm...x 15 and that's 30 Str 8 or cupcake template... in addition to 45 HB shots.

That ain't nothing to sneeze at.

But how expensive is it? Are we talking like Long Fang cheap here? Or is that something that's going to eat points like a fat man eats cookies?

 Ratbarf wrote:
But how expensive is it? Are we talking like Long Fang cheap here? Or is that something that's going to eat points like a fat man eats cookies?

Expensive... akin to Eldar War Walker spam with scatter lazers.

Like 1275... I think.

Then, you can fill 5/6 troops with scouts+ ML (flakk) +camo... maybe 2 tech priest to fortify some terrains.

*shrugs*

Kinda nasty... but, totally all shooty.

I'd probably do just 2 squads of 4/5 speeders + Ravenwing Knights.

Still theory hammering here...

You're talking about something like the equivalent of 4 Missile Launchers and 2 HB on 2 Land Speeders versus 5 Missile Launchers on the Long Fangs (spare 10p in favor of the LF).

 TedNugent wrote:
You're talking about something like the equivalent of 4 Missile Launchers and 2 HB on 2 Land Speeders versus 5 Missile Launchers on the Long Fangs (spare 10p in favor of the LF).

True... but the point is to spam 'em out. If that's the goal, Landspeeder is the way to go...

Just saying.

So I tried to make the same deathwing list I did with the old dex. I found myself substantially overpaying for everything that I used to have. With practically the same loadout and equipment. Why jack up the points on so many models when they struggled to be competitive to begin with?

75 points for cyclone is tough but if you run them you are probably gonna need to reserve them if not going first. Also if spamming then definatly gonna need a darkshroud or two.

They added new rules to deathwing and ravenwing that definitely made them better, hence the price increase. Also, thss should be a points increase as it was flat better than the alternate options. Ravenwing got cheaper for a standard bike, but unless you ran a lot of bikes your list will be different due to deathwing increases.

Holy crap, my DE and my bud's IG just got hosed by a ravenwing list with the salvo banner- so much dakka! Does the banner work from within a vehicle and does it affect hurricane bolters? I read the entry and it just said "boltguns" but the hurricane bolter did not have its own separate entry in the armory so I figured they just count as 3 twinlinked boltguns.

Holy crap though, our Dark Angel friend just hovered two dark talons next to a crusader with the banner inside and poured out an absolutely horrid amount of shots ( not to mention from the bikers nearby). Yowza! Lance spam hooo, venerable landraiders make my blood boil.

Gotta get dem haywire nades- the 75 point landspeeders squadded up with two missile shots a piece are killer as well.

5 typhon 48 range not much shooting back at you.

canadianguy wrote:
5 typhon 48 range not much shooting back at you.

Anything that does is going to shred you though.

Fly the length of your back field with a shroud an have a fairly static gun line w a large DW deep strike unit

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

canadianguy wrote:
5 typhon 48 range not much shooting back at you.

Anything that does is going to shred you though.

True... but the true value in these squads is that they're skimmer..

48" range plus PRE-MEASURE=hard to hit skimmer!

Don't forget, pre-measure makes it really easy to anticpate your opponent's movement while making sure your skimmer is in range to lob those missiles.

Page 26 of dark angels book. Who the hell are the watchers in the dark? They have my primarch and I want him back.

 Tomb King wrote:
Page 26 of dark angels book. Who the hell are the watchers in the dark? They have my primarch and I want him back.

If there was a like button I would've pressed it like hell! xD

He is the only primarch that is retained and with his army. Lol. They just dont know it.

The lion is taking a little kip. (If they hadn't nailed him to the perch he'd be pushing up the daisies). He's in stasis in the Rock, his wounds fully healed, not to awaken until the last days of the Empire for the big fight to come. Or something to that effect.

The watchers are either a Xenos species, or benevolent warp entity that has watched over the galaxy and mankind since its beggings. They do not seem directly evil, although I am sure the inquisiton would love to hear that Jonson and the DA have had delings wih them since before the big E showed up on caliban. It is also mentioned that the watchers are par of a cabal, is this the same cabal that Holds influence with the Alpha legion (The Cabal, a group of Xenos species bent on stopping Chaos from consuming the galaxy)? I think it's a possibility. Gotta read Descent of Angels and Legion to dig up the little details.

With all that, I really want to make an end of days Campaign or something using some Horus heresy stuff.


also, do you guys think it's worth having the Relic with the knights?

Do you think 7th edition will be the death of the emperor or something of that apocolyptic nature and the primarchs make their return?

 Tomb King wrote:
Do you think 7th edition will be the death of the emperor or something of that apocolyptic nature and the primarchs make their return?

I doubt it. The only way something like that will happen is if GW's sales dip far enough into the negatives. If they sense the grimdarkness getting stale they would possibly do something drastic, such as having the end of days come upon the empire of man. Cast new primarch models, encourage bigger games, etc. In 7th edition? Probably not. 12th edition? Maybe!

 gpfunk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Do you think 7th edition will be the death of the emperor or something of that apocolyptic nature and the primarchs make their return?

I doubt it. The only way something like that will happen is if GW's sales dip far enough into the negatives. If they sense the grimdarkness getting stale they would possibly do something drastic, such as having the end of days come upon the empire of man. Cast new primarch models, encourage bigger games, etc. In 7th edition? Probably not. 12th edition? Maybe!

So around 2035??? Damn one can hope for sooner.

Played some games with my old deathwing list, figured I'd share. I took belial, 5 deathwing squads with 4 thss, 1 sb/CF, cyclone on each. I had 6 bikes with 2 melta, vet fist, and multimelta attack bike. I also had 2 speeders with missiles and multimelta.

Now, at 2k points my old list dropped 3 bikes but added a land raider, and belials squad had fnp and +1 attack. I really missed both the raider and upgrades on belial, but the command squad termies are no longer scoring. I do like the deathwing banner though for +1 attack to 6 inches, and may try that in the future.

Anyway, in the games I found myself going first a lot. In previous editions this would be amazing as it meant the bikes could assault on 1 and 3 termie squads would follow up turn 2. Now, the bikes kind of sit there and 5 termie units assault on 2. That meant my army could not lock up nasty units before they shot up my termies, which really hurt. Also, overwatch in the games I played wrecked havoc, for example a guard command squad killed 2 terminators with 9 Las shots on overwatch. Obviously that is unlikely, but as I always say terminators are likely to survive an armor save with a 2+, if the likely events always happened terminators would never lose.

So anyway, I found the small bike units did well as homer scouts, and rarely died, but dangerous terrain hurts just as bad. Yes I know that you get an armor save, however now you take a dangerous terrain check for every single piece of terrain. Since there is more terrain on boards (several small bits of terrain to make up an average sized area) , that means more dangerous checks, hence why bikes with their long movement range suffer many dangerous rolls. In one game I gave my opponent first blood on my turn 1 with a bad set of rolls on the attack bike.

Still though, attack bikes are awesome, scouting melta bikes are great versus vehicles, and I assaulted a few units simply to use the awesome hit and run for a free 3d6 inches towards a tank. I also failed the roll and had similiar plans ruined, so it's not quite a perfect option. I am looking forward to trying either black knights or banner buffed bikes, since I felt the main drawback on the bikes was low damage... Many opponents simply ignored them, and without azzy or Sammy they are not even scoring.

The speeders were great, but I really felt that they were too fragile. The difference between an 85 point melta missile speeder and 75 point Las plasma razor is awfully narrow. The Bolter missile speeder lacks the anti vehicle punch, and since regular marines handle infantry just fine the speeders are on the chopping block. 2 hull points and av10 are turning into deal breakers. Now, a large speeder unit backed by a dark shroud may be different, but as it stands the razorback seems superior to the speeder in every way I care about currently. As an aside, my speeders died to hull points much more than to real anti tank weapons, and keeping them 48 inches back cuts so much firepower off them both from the multimelta and because terrain actually blocks Los the past few years, limiting my target selection to what I see not what I need dead. I need to shoot at what needs killing, not targets of opportunity as I keep myself safe.

Into belial. Obviously hamstrung by only carrying a 5 man squad, his no scatter deepstrike was still really useful. While not great, I definately like the idea of a turn 2 charge on anything thanks to belial. Sadly I think he combos better with knights instead of deathwing termies for assault reasons, but knights don't become troops with belial. Also, command squads suffer from both not being troops and only being 5 strong. Using them for banner work is questionable at best, since you have to be within 6 inches to grant +1 attack but can not afford any casualties before the banner is at risk. Also, sticking belial in that squad robs another 5 termies from a 10 man squad from no scatter.

On to terminator squads. With cyclone, 4 thss, and a chainfist I was spending 270. In the old edition I would use the 2 reserve termie units to pick up unattended objectives since only 3 could drop down. Now, however, spending 270 to take an objective is unsustainable. Heck even in 5th 12 point objective holders existed but they were slow, but now with allies and flyers many armies claim objectives either cheaper or with mobility (eldar bikes and necron scythes being 2 stand out examples). Scoring dw termies make no sense, your termies need to be busting heads in close combat to justify their point cost. Otherwise an aegis with a scout squad is cheaper and still enjoys a 2+ versus shooting thanks to go to ground. 4 scout squads and 20 elite termies are better in almost every way than 25 scoring termies.

Also, psychic powers are terrible for dw. Yes, they hurt everyone, but terminators have more to lose than anyone else. For example, misfortune practically doubles the damage termies take. Misfortune on a tac squad results in 66 percent more saves instead of 83 percent on termies, and you get 3 tacticals for less than 1 terminator. At least dw knights get adamantine will, not a great solution but better than nothing.

Finally, when it comes down to old wound allocation versus the new system, dw termies suffer greatly. With only 5 models, and with the enemy dictating what wounds to save first, I constantly found my chainfist with a 5++ an issue. Normally, you want him to make armor saves and the ss models to make invulns. In this edition you have no choice, and your enemy will order the saves in the worst way for you. This means you need bigger squads and less special models in a position to take damage. So I'll probably never take a chainfist again, or maybe one in 10 if land raiders pop up everywhere, because in the games you will need a special model your opponent is sure to snipe him out, and in other games the points and different save are a liability. Again the deathwing knights solve this issue with a storm shield on everyone, no special gear, and all regular models able to hulk out at s10 for a turn so you don't need a chainfist, but I still have to test them in numbers.

I hope to test belial with company vets in a raider with Ezekiel or chappy as a replacement to terminators soon, we will see. Also want to try 10 knights with belial for no scatter versus just scouted bike teleport Homers, as 190 just for no scatter is feeling really pricy on belial.

Thanks for the feedback. I've been eyeing up a mix of termies and scouts for my DW army.

I'm probably gonna be using storm bolters on my Terminators to take advantage of the splitfire and TL ranged. That's where a lot of the points cost comes from, plus they're making you spend even more points to get the TH/SS.

Yep deathwing regulars are gonna have to be shooty, which sucks if you've already invested in a Belial army in 5th. I guess those TH/SS models will have to become knights...

The speeder squadrons suffer from being FA choices. Black Knights are the winner here, but if I can spare a slot... If only they could be HS they'd be in every list. I do like taking the single speeder when you have Ravenwing troops.

So I finally got in a game with the new codex last night. I really want to build a greenwing and ravenwing army, however I chose to start off with Deathwing. This is the list I have been toying with and will make changes based on how the different setups I try, work;

Belial

8 DW Terminators (CML, 3 TH/SS)

7 DW Terminators (AC, 2 TH/SS)

7 DW Terminators (4 TH/SS, 2 LC)

3 RW Bikes

Land Raider

Land Raider Crusader (w/Multimelta)

I put Belial in the 8-man squad and had them strike on turn one, with the 7-man squad w/AC coming in turn two. I put the last 7-man squad in the Crusader. I faced an Imperial Guard list that had, as memory serves;

CCS
Two small Platoons
2 HWT (Lascannons)
Melta-vets
Vendetta
Leman Russ Executioner
Manticore
2 LRBT
ADL w/Quad-gun

I got the first turn and dropped Belial right next to the CCS and split-fired the CML into the Executioner's side armor (exploding it!) and had Belial and the balance of the squad shoot at the CCS wiping it out to a man (netting me First Blood, Slay the Warlord and +1 for The Hunt, not to mention Linebreaker..). My Ravenwing bikers fared poorly and died turn one while managing to take one Imperial Guardsman with them. I proceeded to table my opponent while losing a few wounds on Belial and about 7 Terminators total.

I did have some good rolls overall, which largely allowed me to table my opponent. Belial's squad dropping an Executioner and the CCS with the opening shots of the game was easily the highlight and wrong-footed my opponent right from the start. My initial thoughts after one game were:

1) Deathwing Assault, Vengeful Strike, Tactical Precision and Split Fire are a nasty combination, which makes me glad I went relatively light on Hammernators overall (at least compared to 5th edition, that is) and stuck with shooting. I was very pleased with how well these mixed squads performed.

2) The melee heavy Terminator squad didn't do much this game, but that was due largely to them deploying inside the Land Raider Crusader on my right flank while my opponent (who deployed second) placed a lot of the army on my left flank. I like the idea of deploying them inside the Crusader and giving them a chance to assault from it. I will try this a few more times to see how it works.

3) The Land Raiders, on paper, seemed like expensive point sinks but with 15 Terminators + Belial being deployed immediately within my opponents lines forced him to focus on them, leaving the Land Raiders relatively unscathed. I like the dual Land Raider setup and it gives me a powerful punch with shooting. I'll continue to run them to see the results.

4) The Ravenwing Bikes did practically nothing at all and wound up dying spectacularly to massed Lasgun fire. At first it soured me on using them again, but after some thought I decided to try them again. I made a mistake by zipping them into the open on my first turn hoping to score some wounds with their guns and thinking their 3+ armor save and T5 would keep them safe, coupled with Belial deploying on turn one and being a much, much more tempting target. My opponent made some good rolls, while I rolled poorly and it took him just one Infantry squad to destroy all three bikes.

5) The lack of EW on Belial puts him at grave risk of being flattened by Str8+ weapons and my opponent had three pie plates that could ID him. I held my breath every time I was forced to roll his save against one of those shots. However, what you are really paying for is Tactical Precision and a Teleport Homer, so if Belial does kick the bucket, it won't be until after you've got whatever squad he is with on the table safely and in a good position. The Bikes are (ideally) my back up Teleport Homer in case someone puts Belial down on turn one before I can drop my second squad.

All in all a good showing for the Deathwing. I'll be running this same list for a while, and plan to get in a game next week against Necrons.

I thought "the hunt" only worked when Belial or his squad kill the warlord in the assault phase?

Also, no chimeras for the Ccs? Or did you kill it first before the storm bolter volley?

All in all good results, but it seems like a perfect storm setup, as the guard took a lot of anti-meta choices with limited infantry, no chimeras, and bad luck. Exploding av13 with 2 tl missile shots on the most dangerous tank the guard player had was no doubt awesome, but was the Ccs in the open to have died from storm bolters? Or just bad saves for the guard?

Interested to hear more results, seeing as I wrote off dw regular termies right before you had positive experiences with them.

As for Belial and s8 weapons, I too fear the instant death, which is a reason I am excited to try him with dw knights for the t5 bonus. It wouldn't help versus the manticore, but would with the battle cannons and meltas you were up against.

DevianID wrote:
I thought "the hunt" only worked when Belial or his squad kill the warlord in the assault phase?

Also, no chimeras for the Ccs? Or did you kill it first before the storm bolter volley?

All in all good results, but it seems like a perfect storm setup, as the guard took a lot of anti-meta choices with limited infantry, no chimeras, and bad luck. Exploding av13 with 2 tl missile shots on the most dangerous tank the guard player had was no doubt awesome, but was the Ccs in the open to have died from storm bolters? Or just bad saves for the guard?

Interested to hear more results, seeing as I wrote off dw regular termies right before you had positive experiences with them.

As for Belial and s8 weapons, I too fear the instant death, which is a reason I am excited to try him with dw knights for the t5 bonus. It wouldn't help versus the manticore, but would with the battle cannons and meltas you were up against.

Ah, you know what, The Hunt does only work in the Assault Phase. A rather important tidbit that they included on the Warlord Trait list on page 28 but left off of the Warlord Trait list on the fold-out in the back of the book. Oh well, something to remember.

There was no Chimera for the CCS, they were out in the open and subject to my massed SB fire. With Belial and whichever squad he joins not scattering, I can pretty easily decapitate a Guard player who doesn't put their CCS in a Chimera or bubble-wrap them in Guardsmen. Lessons were learned on both sides so I'll be interested to see what changes he makes knowing just how devastating the Deathwing Assault can be.

 Brock79 wrote:

1) Deathwing Assault, Vengeful Strike, Tactical Precision and Split Fire are a nasty combination, which makes me glad I went relatively light on Hammernators overall (at least compared to 5th edition, that is) and stuck with shooting. I was very pleased with how well these mixed squads performed.

I've normally gone with mixed squads and so far am loving this. Don't like them being more expensive but like you said, those abilities do really add to their ability to carve something to bits if you pick your targets right.

 Brock79 wrote:

4) The Ravenwing Bikes did practically nothing at all and wound up dying spectacularly to massed Lasgun fire. At first it soured me on using them again, but after some thought I decided to try them again. I made a mistake by zipping them into the open on my first turn hoping to score some wounds with their guns and thinking their 3+ armor save and T5 would keep them safe, coupled with Belial deploying on turn one and being a much, much more tempting target. My opponent made some good rolls, while I rolled poorly and it took him just one Infantry squad to destroy all three bikes.

I had this happen in a game versus some Terminators. The T5 is nice, but still have to be careful. I'm thinking if you're using Belial their homers are far less important now though. Still a decent option, and possibly important if you have a larger number of Deathwing to drop though I've only used a few squads in the games I've played so far and at that number it's one or the other. Unless you're maybe running scoring bikes.

 Brock79 wrote:

5) The lack of EW on Belial puts him at grave risk of being flattened by Str8+ weapons and my opponent had three pie plates that could ID him. I held my breath every time I was forced to roll his save against one of those shots. However, what you are really paying for is Tactical Precision and a Teleport Homer, so if Belial does kick the bucket, it won't be until after you've got whatever squad he is with on the table safely and in a good position. The Bikes are (ideally) my back up Teleport Homer in case someone puts Belial down on turn one before I can drop my second squad.

Not to mention a WS6 with Master Crafted Fleshbane as well. Not a huge deal versus squishy guardsmen but the times I've ended up in CC have generally went well. That ++4 certainly seems nice to have in that setup at least though.

DevianID wrote:
Yeah, vets as combi platforms and azrael bodyguards are the 2 best uses I can find for them.

Isn't that all Sternguard and power armor Wolf Guard are good for? Seems like that'd be what you would get from the DA version, too.

 Scrollax wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

An interrogator chaplian is a member of the inner circle meaning fearless and preferred enemy(CSM).
An interrogator chaplian can go into terminator armor.
An interrogator chaplian can be outfitted with chapter relics.
An interrogator chaplian gets 3 wounds instead of 2.

So unless you want 1 or more of these 4 things, save the money and field a chaplain.

Does anyone else find it odd that they left out ATSKNF on almost a lot of our characters? Did it get fixed in the faq? I didn't see it their personally.

Inner circle makes them fearless.

 whembly wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
You're talking about something like the equivalent of 4 Missile Launchers and 2 HB on 2 Land Speeders versus 5 Missile Launchers on the Long Fangs (spare 10p in favor of the LF).

True... but the point is to spam 'em out. If that's the goal, Landspeeder is the way to go...

Just saying.

I don't think so... but perhaps 1 or 2 speeder squads of 5 with a shroud.... Field them with 3 or 4 typhoons and 1 or 2 cheap speeders. The combined cover saves with a couple of expendable cheap speeders might be fine.

DAaddict wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
You're talking about something like the equivalent of 4 Missile Launchers and 2 HB on 2 Land Speeders versus 5 Missile Launchers on the Long Fangs (spare 10p in favor of the LF).

True... but the point is to spam 'em out. If that's the goal, Landspeeder is the way to go...

Just saying.

I don't think so... but perhaps 1 or 2 speeder squads of 5 with a shroud.... Field them with 3 or 4 typhoons and 1 or 2 cheap speeders. The combined cover saves with a couple of expendable cheap speeders might be fine.

True... but, your YMMV with whichever variant used.

THe key point I want to point out is that in 6th Ed, you can PRE-MEASURE. What this means is that typhoons w/ cyclone ML having a 48" range... you can play the range game if you know your opponent's range as well.

Those characters have Inner Circle, which means those characters have Fearless, which overrides ATSKNF.

For those of you who aren't using Allies, how are you dealing with enemy flyers?

I am wondering how the Terminators are doing with the Plasma Cannons? I've got mine, but I have not had a chance to use them.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am wondering how the Terminators are doing with the Plasma Cannons? I've got mine, but I have not had a chance to use them.

It's more of a giddy how fun will this be thing. They do okay but small blast is easy to work around. So they are fun good choices but not optimal ones.

I just got my codex in, so I wrote a bit of my first impressions here http://www.3forint.com/2013/01/codex-da-first-impressions.html
It's a bit long to copy paste, but I am a fan.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am wondering how the Terminators are doing with the Plasma Cannons? I've got mine, but I have not had a chance to use them.

I'd leave those to the Devs and Tacs personally.

whoadirty wrote:
For those of you who aren't using Allies, how are you dealing with enemy flyers?

Nephilim Jetfighter. I loved the model from first sight, preordered it and I be damned if I ain't gonna use it. And I think it's unfair that people complain that it's not a good anti-air flyer. Well obviously if you compare it to the ridiculously undercosted and overpowered Vendetta!

It doesn't even need to be a comparison, you just look at it's loadout and see what it will be attempting to take down and you see the big problem. One TL Lascannon, and a bunch of S6 shots are going to be only a small threat to something like a vendetta/stormraven/helldrake. Those S6 shots are even less of a threat since they are not even twin linked.

 Gar'Ang wrote:

whoadirty wrote:
For those of you who aren't using Allies, how are you dealing with enemy flyers?

Nephilim Jetfighter. I loved the model from first sight, preordered it and I be damned if I ain't gonna use it. And I think it's unfair that people complain that it's not a good anti-air flyer. Well obviously if you compare it to the ridiculously undercosted and overpowered Vendetta!

Thing people seemed to forget instantly is that by default it has a Twin-Linked Las Cannon. A good roll will kill another flier instantly but if not, or using the Avenger you can still ping any AV12 to death, just a question if you can do it fast enough. Anything AV11 or under though you can get up to 10 shots on so while a pricy model (in dollars and points!) it can do the job and for a few more points toss down a defense line for more coverage.

Only gotten to use mine once so far though and nothing in that game bothered to shoot at it at all. I guess some people don't like rolling for 6's.

Coyote81 wrote:
It doesn't even need to be a comparison, you just look at it's loadout and see what it will be attempting to take down and you see the big problem. One TL Lascannon, and a bunch of S6 shots are going to be only a small threat to something like a vendetta/stormraven/helldrake. Those S6 shots are even less of a threat since they are not even twin linked.

I'd beg to differ. Dakka doesn't seem to be a fan, but I stand by weight of fire. There aren't many things that can pump out 7 S6 shots per turn and there's the 3 S5 shots if you're looking at AV lower than 12. There's also something to be said for the Neph as an aerial denial unit. With rifleman dreads or dev/tac with flakk you can give the opponent the choice of presenting rear armor to the Neph or the flakk and that's not a good place for any flyer to be

andystache wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
It doesn't even need to be a comparison, you just look at it's loadout and see what it will be attempting to take down and you see the big problem. One TL Lascannon, and a bunch of S6 shots are going to be only a small threat to something like a vendetta/stormraven/helldrake. Those S6 shots are even less of a threat since they are not even twin linked.

I'd beg to differ. Dakka doesn't seem to be a fan, but I stand by weight of fire. There aren't many things that can pump out 7 S6 shots per turn and there's the 3 S5 shots if you're looking at AV lower than 12. There's also something to be said for the Neph as an aerial denial unit. With rifleman dreads or dev/tac with flakk you can give the opponent the choice of presenting rear armor to the Neph or the flakk and that's not a good place for any flyer to be

I don't think you are being objective when looking at the unit. It isnt a good way to bring down AV12. I dont care if its 10 S6 shots, it still isnt particularly efficient. I've seen dakkajets try to take down Vendettas and Heldrakes, it doesn't work out too well. The Nephilim is a failure and though you may be able to field it without having a terrible, awful list, you shouldn't try to make it out to be something it isn't, namely "good" or efficient.

I agree that the Nephilim is horrible in an AA role. A single TL Las-cannon isn't likely to do much against a vehicle (even if we simplify and assume that twin linking BS4 generates an automatic hit, a Lascannon only has a 66% chance to remove a single hull point and a 16.7% chance of killing an AV12 target outright), and at BS4 it takes an average of 27 S6 shots to bring down a 3HP AV12 target (2/3rds hit to give you 18 hits, of which a 6th glance giving you 3 glances), making it even worse against a Helldrake or if the enemy Jinks. If the Nephilim had Vector Dancer so that it could get behind enemy fliers more easily then there might be an argument for it, but as it is the Nephilim does not perform against the two best fliers in the game (the Vendetta and the Helldrake). It's performance is better against AV11 fliers, but still limited. All in all, the Storm Talon is a better Air Superiority Fighter.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I refuse to call a model rubbish because it's outclassed by 1-3 other models in its type. I like to think that I build combined force DA lists in a TAC format. To me the Neph with the mega bolter is too versatile to not include in a TAC list.

If you field a Heldrake or Vendetta I will fire at it with the wonderful AA that comes on a Razorback or Dread and send the Neph after your ground troops.

Having played a ridiculous number of games against DE I'm used to all of my opponents vehicles having a 5++ save so the thought that the enemy might Jink doesn't bother me in the least.

RegalPhantom wrote:
I agree that the Nephilim is horrible in an AA role. A single TL Las-cannon isn't likely to do much against a vehicle (even if we simplify and assume that twin linking BS4 generates an automatic hit, a Lascannon only has a 66% chance to remove a single hull point and a 16.7% chance of killing an AV12 target outright), and at BS4 it takes an average of 27 S6 shots to bring down a 3HP AV12 target (2/3rds hit to give you 18 hits, of which a 6th glance giving you 3 glances), making it even worse against a Helldrake or if the enemy Jinks. If the Nephilim had Vector Dancer so that it could get behind enemy fliers more easily then there might be an argument for it, but as it is the Nephilim does not perform against the two best fliers in the game (the Vendetta and the Helldrake). It's performance is better against AV11 fliers, but still limited. All in all, the Storm Talon is a better Air Superiority Fighter.

What about the 2 in 6 chance of getting an imobilising hit on a Flyer?

Immobs on a flyer are not a big deal. Especially if its something like a hell drake or vendetta, as it can choose the 18 inch option knowing that you may get an immob easier.

The issue is the cost. It costs more than a hell drake, but the hell drake with the autocannon is better versus flyers that are av 11 or 12. Whats worse, there is no vector strike, no invuln, no reroll to pen, and finally, no one even takes the hell drake with autocannons!

Sending up a poor excuse for a flyer because it is all you have does not apply in 40k. You pay for everything you take. The 180 for the flyer would get you 180 points of other stuff that is either more efficient at killing flyers than the jetfighter, or much much better at killing targets on the ground than the jetfighter.

The dark talon in my opinion has a LOT to offer for dark angels, and the reason is that it is not trying to compete head on with other things. Instead, it is supporting your units on the ground and bringing very unique force multipliers. Blind is a great rule, init test or become ws1/bs1 for 2 player turns? In an army with mostly ws 4 models, this means that you can either take the bite out of close combat units or greatly weaken an enemies shooting.

The bomb is straight up devastating to ws3 or init 3 models. As far as I have seen, for your assault phase the enemy simply can not attack at all. Hit a 50 man guard blob with the bomb, charge in 3 bikes, and the ws0 init 0 guard can not even attack! Then in their turn they are locked in combat with a single small unit, which they can kill, but you stole an entire turn from them with the bomb and a cheap throwaway unit.

Anyway, for plasmacannons on terminators, I dislike the application but like the concept. Consider that the terminator cyclone is a 2 shot launcher, and the assault cannon is a greatly superior heavy bolter that rivals the las cannon against vehicles, and it is clear to me that a terminator weapon should be about 2 times as good as a tactical equivalent. Instead, a terminator plasma cannon versus a 5 man tactical plasma cannon is the exact same thing, you just pay a huge points premium on the terminators. Thats not to say that plasma cannons are not good, its just that other units do plasma so, SO much better as a weapon system that you should look to the terminators for their more unique options.

andystache wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I refuse to call a model rubbish because it's outclassed by 1-3 other models in its type. I like to think that I build combined force DA lists in a TAC format. To me the Neph with the mega bolter is too versatile to not include in a TAC list.

If you field a Heldrake or Vendetta I will fire at it with the wonderful AA that comes on a Razorback or Dread and send the Neph after your ground troops.

Having played a ridiculous number of games against DE I'm used to all of my opponents vehicles having a 5++ save so the thought that the enemy might Jink doesn't bother me in the least.

Saying it's not rubbish because it's only outclasses by 3 models in it's type(I say 4 because the stormtalon is far better as well), when there is only 6 models in that type to start with is a bad way to look at it.

Coyote81 wrote:
Saying it's not rubbish because it's only outclasses by 3 models in it's type(I say 4 because the stormtalon is far better as well), when there is only 6 models in that type to start with is a bad way to look at it.

How are you handling flyers with your DA Coyote81?

For the 180 pts you spend on a DA flier, you can get a devastator squad with 4 flakk missiles, with ten points left to spare! Add a prescience libby to them and ur gonna be glancing to popping almost every flier except for Stormravens and Heldrakes.

It really sucks cause I LOVE the look of the DA fliers.

Twin linked Autocannon Dreads are cheaper and more effective.

Devastators with Flakk missiles are cheaper and more effective.

GW gave us rubbish in this flyer, its just sad considering how awesome they look that they would have such sad stats.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
cause I LOVE the look of the DA fliers.

This should be the real reason to take any unit.

Beyond that I will probably give them a try, I tend to think they will do well in my local Meta as I am the only one who has any flyers.

Better yet, you can get a scoring Scout Squad AND an Aegis with Quadguns, Camo Cloaks. 3+ Cover saves and Interceptor on a scoring unit lolololo

PS Quad guns do more damage than 4 Flakk Missiles, and you can use the Sergeant's BS4 to operate the guns, making a Scout squad with camo cloaks possibly the most efficient ADL Quadgun squad in any (?) Codex.

If only you could buy more quadguns! As for most efficient quadgun, that honor will always always go to eldar. BS5, tank hunter, reroll to wound and no cover saves ever.

DevianID wrote:
If only you could buy more quadguns! As for most efficient quadgun, that honor will always always go to eldar. BS5, tank hunter, reroll to wound and no cover saves ever.

Whoa

Tell me more

Fire Dragon Exarch

Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Telion is a good runner up for BS6 and he gets to allocate the wounds if you're not firing at aircraft.

I still think a vindicare on a bastion manning an Icarus las canon is the best/funniest option. First Blood/slay the warlord for the win!

whoadirty wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
Saying it's not rubbish because it's only outclasses by 3 models in it's type(I say 4 because the stormtalon is far better as well), when there is only 6 models in that type to start with is a bad way to look at it.

How are you handling flyers with your DA Coyote81?

One dev squad with 4xflakk missiles, two seperate 5man squads with one flakk missile and a ADL with quadgun or Lascannon, sometiems a bastion with either/or.

I have also brought the vindicare in the bastion with a Mallus Inq and some gk strikes for anti flamer defense.

One of the units I am having issue with it the Command Squad Champion, for the price of a Plasma gun you get a S5 AP5 W1 I4[1] A 2/3 3+/6++ Character to get slaughtered in Close Combat

Especially when you compare it to the halberd of caliban on the terminator sergeant, ugghh

Combat Shields have been garbage for a while now. They used to be one worse than storm Shields, but they buffed storm Shields and debuffed combat Shields.

As for the weapon, I don't get it either. the Caliban blade is worse than a power axe for little discernable reason. The total package is a worse storm shield and worse power weapon for half the cost of both good versions. Really it seems he is only good for having a character upgrade to chump out in a challenge, which is definately not how the company champion should be acting.

You would think being the company champion he would have access to a vast array of weapons and wargear. I don't know why GW makes combat shields such garbage, ~16% invulnerable save is next to worthless. WS 5 is no nearly worth the "upgrade" I would rather have another WS 4 guy with storm shield and hverhe option of picking what weapon he is gonna use.

it seems his only purpose it to take Chalanges for the Apothicary/IC

 Volkov wrote:

Uh huh... and my 3 typhoons were suppose to outgun 2 ravagers, 4 raiders, and 2 reaver squads while his 3 splintercannons picked off my bikes. Lets not even get into T1 having nightfight, to which means if I stayed out 48" away, I could not even think of shooting him, while his entire army could touch mine. Great tactic there guy...

Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you. And that if the difference between a melta shot or not, rapid fire or not....dictate movement for the game. Force him to come where you want. You basically just re-enacted the poem charge of the light brigade.

what DE vehicle doesnt have a night shield these days? That reduces your range to 42" and DE vehicles can move 12 and fire everything at full effect so they can glide where they want to smack you back.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

Nearly every "fix" I've seen for the Neph is just a veiled attempt to give the army an uber-unit. There was a thread over in Discussion that wanted S7 AP2 weapons on it.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Not every unit is a winner and the codices are not written for every unit to be in a tourney list. If you're really that bent out of shape just use the C:SM book with DA models.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

Erm, chaos hellbrute ?

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

Erm, chaos hellbrute ?

That was a misprint though.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

Erm, chaos hellbrute ?

only a misprint in the english edition


seriously why so many errors only in the english version from an english company

Quick question: what's better at 1500 pts? One 10-man Deathwing squad, or two 5-mans?

Asking because my trial-by-fire for DA will be in the form of a 1500 pt tourney tomorrow (in which, yes, I will be posting a brief batrep to this thread with my thoughts on the whole thing).

List is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503208.page#5217082

tiberius183 wrote:
Quick question: what's better at 1500 pts? One 10-man Deathwing squad, or two 5-mans?

Asking because my trial-by-fire for DA will be in the form of a 1500 pt tourney tomorrow (in which, yes, I will be posting a brief batrep to this thread with my thoughts on the whole thing).

List is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503208.page#5217082

Go 10 man and then you split them into combat squads if the situation demands it.

I don't think DW can combat squad. It's not in their rules.

Honestly if the blackswords were S7 the Niph would be worth it. Seriously what are the missiles for at S6 on an air superiority fighter? I'd rather have hurricane bolters on it like the dark talon, which is much more useful as stated before.

I have been looking at the Veteran Squads. If done right they may be expensive, could also be real effective.
At 5 men you can get a Special Weapon and a Heavy Weapon, at 10 that makes it 2 Special Weapons and a Heavy Weapon. With the FAQ fix they all can take additional weapons upgrades.

I could easily break them into Combat Squads with the Sergeant and 2x Plasma Guns while the other Squad will have the Heavy Weapon [like a missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles.

I could also make them a good body guard for Azrael when at full size near a Dakka Banner hidden in a Land Raider.

I have been looking at the Ravenwing Dark Talon and I don’t think it is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Look at its weapons, the 2x Hurricane Bolters and a Rift Cannon. If you look at the Weapons Ranges it is defiantly a Close in Air Support Aircraft similar to an A-10 or more like a P-47 Thunder Bolt.

The Hurricane Bolters will do lots of damage epically if you can get yourself near the Dakka Banner [Just think about Parking it in Hover Strike Mode over it]. Then there is the Rift Cannon, it has a lousy range, low strength and a small blast, but it has Blind. For you who have not read Bland, Any Unit you hit [Not Wound] a model and then it must Pass an Initiative Test or The Unit become WS-1, BS-1 the end of its next turn. While not likely to happen to things like Genestealers or Eldar, you have a decent chance vs. a lot of other units it could really mess up, like that Carnifex your Deathwing is about to Assault. I think it has the possibility of become a game changer in many games. I will defanatly be giving one a try in the future.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have been looking at the Ravenwing Dark Talon and I don’t think it is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Look at its weapons, the 2x Hurricane Bolters and a Rift Cannon. If you look at the Weapons Ranges it is defiantly a Close in Air Support Aircraft similar to an A-10 or more like a P-47 Thunder Bolt.

The Hurricane Bolters will do lots of damage epically if you can get yourself near the Dakka Banner [Just think about Parking it in Hover Strike Mode over it]. Then there is the Rift Cannon, it has a lousy range, low strength and a small blast, but it has Blind. For you who have not read Bland, Any Unit you hit [Not Wound] a model and then it must Pass an Initiative Test or The Unit become WS-1, BS-1 the end of its next turn. While not likely to happen to things like Genestealers or Eldar, you have a decent chance vs. a lot of other units it could really mess up, like that Carnifex your Deathwing is about to Assault. I think it has the possibility of become a game changer in many games. I will defanatly be giving one a try in the future.

I think the big issue with the Dark Talon, like the Neph, is it's only going to get a chance to use it's weapons once, if that. A Quadgun alone has a pretty good chance of taking out an AV 11 flyer before it can even do anything.. Then, when you have to deal with any other flyer, it will quickly go down. It also costs more than a lot of the flyers out there.

 Sasori wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have been looking at the Ravenwing Dark Talon and I don’t think it is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Look at its weapons, the 2x Hurricane Bolters and a Rift Cannon. If you look at the Weapons Ranges it is defiantly a Close in Air Support Aircraft similar to an A-10 or more like a P-47 Thunder Bolt.

The Hurricane Bolters will do lots of damage epically if you can get yourself near the Dakka Banner [Just think about Parking it in Hover Strike Mode over it]. Then there is the Rift Cannon, it has a lousy range, low strength and a small blast, but it has Blind. For you who have not read Bland, Any Unit you hit [Not Wound] a model and then it must Pass an Initiative Test or The Unit become WS-1, BS-1 the end of its next turn. While not likely to happen to things like Genestealers or Eldar, you have a decent chance vs. a lot of other units it could really mess up, like that Carnifex your Deathwing is about to Assault. I think it has the possibility of become a game changer in many games. I will defanatly be giving one a try in the future.

I think the big issue with the Dark Talon, like the Neph, is it's only going to get a chance to use it's weapons once, if that. A Quadgun alone has a pretty good chance of taking out an AV 11 flyer before it can even do anything.. Then, when you have to deal with any other flyer, it will quickly go down. It also costs more than a lot of the flyers out there.

Probably, but that could be said about any AV11 Vehicle. I don’t think it will be that much of an issue with a Deathwing List, just take out the Quad Gun with a Deathwing Squad; Problem Solved. As far as other fighters I think everyone has come up with there way of dealing with them.
Now I would never take Dark Talon in a game less the 2k. at that point you should have enough other stuff out there that your opponent will ignore the “Worthless Dark Talon” giving you enough time to inflict some damage.
The tactic I was thinking was using a Ravenwing Bike Command Squad with a Dakka Banner and two other Ravenwing Bike Squads just rum up one Flank and when the Dark Talon [or two] comes in just park it over them.

I'd like to talk about something.

What about Combi-weapons on Deathwing models? Combi-plas, Melta, Flamer...

Seems like this hasn't been discussed enough - DA Terminators have a decidedly more ranged flavor than other Codeces due to Vengeance Strike and their Deep Striking nature. Are combi weapons a good idea? If so, what kinds and in what quantities?

 TedNugent wrote:
I'd like to talk about something.

What about Combi-weapons on Deathwing models? Combi-plas, Melta, Flamer...

Seems like this hasn't been discussed enough - DA Terminators have a decidedly more ranged flavor than other Codeces due to Vengeance Strike and their Deep Striking nature. Are combi weapons a good idea? If so, what kinds and in what quantities?

I hate to be the guy saying read the codex, but read the codex. No Deathwing squad has the option to take combi-weapons anywhere, not even on their sergeants (who don't have access to the armory).

You're right that Deathwing can't, but other terminators can, so his point is a very interesting idea. The "Terminator Weapons" section of the Armoury includes combi weapons, and the Lion's Roar chapter relic would fit the description as well, I'd say. In that regard, TDA Chaplains, librarians and company masters can all DS/DWA and get the benefit of vengeful strike with a combi-weapon.

I think twin-linking plasma is pretty incredible, because it makes you practically immune to Gets Hot!. And alpha-striking with a combi-plasma does sound really sweet, and for only 6 points, too. However, this would mean losing an assault weapon (storm bolter) to get a rapid fire weapon (boltgun), so that's something that should be considered before making your choice.

Combi-Weapons are an interesting idea, particularly because I was just thinking about squeezing a Librarian (possibly armed with a combi-?????) into my Deathwing army. As I understand it, the Deathwing Terminator and Command Squads have the Split Fire USR and allow any one model in the unit (which I believe would include an attached HQ, correct me if I am wrong) to choose a different target if they pass a leadership test. This would allow a potentially devastating shot when combined with Vengeful Strike. A TL Meltagun shot or up to two TL Plasma gun shots at a prime target choice would be particularly effective and for only 6 points. As for changing from a Storm Bolter to a Bolter, I think it's a fair trade off for giving you a (twin-linked) potential game changing shot because all you would lose is one shot between 13"-24".

Actually working this model into a Deathwing army means taking two HQ choices however (obviously you would have to take Belial, or Azrael) and I'm not sure it would be worth it unless that second HQ brings more to the table than a combi-weapon given the limited model count that would be further reduced by bringing a second 100+ point HQ.

 Spartan089 wrote:


Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

DA can take Land Speeder squadrons. I think some Xenos can do squadrons too. That's far from IG exclusive.

Since the Neph is much worse than a Vendetta why shouldn't they cost less?

If I were to "fix" the Neph I'd give those missiles either blast or haywire. Blasts would make it anti infantry. Haywire would make it a great air superiority fighter.

Nivek5150 wrote:
You're right that Deathwing can't, but other terminators can, so his point is a very interesting idea. The "Terminator Weapons" section of the Armoury includes combi weapons, and the Lion's Roar chapter relic would fit the description as well, I'd say. In that regard, TDA Chaplains, librarians and company masters can all DS/DWA and get the benefit of vengeful strike with a combi-weapon.

I think twin-linking plasma is pretty incredible, because it makes you practically immune to Gets Hot!. And alpha-striking with a combi-plasma does sound really sweet, and for only 6 points, too. However, this would mean losing an assault weapon (storm bolter) to get a rapid fire weapon (boltgun), so that's something that should be considered before making your choice.

Actually I meant Terminator infantry

I was looking at the Termie weapon chart and it all got mushed in my brain when I wasn't looking at the book.

Altho, yeah, I would think a TDA IC would def be interesting with Combi-Plas. Lion's Roar is already Master crafted, though, so the bonus would be redundant : /

Are you sure you don't suffer gets hot when you reroll a 1 result? I thought you were stuck with the penalty >_<

PS, Rapid fire doesn't matter for TDA since they have relentless, they can assault after firing heavy or rapid fire weapons. So you could shoot Combi Plas and then assault immediately after.

Give the Nephilim the option to swap its missiles for Hurricane Bolters, and drop the points cost to 150. Problem solved.

Make the Dark Talon's main gun Large Blast and AP 5, and drop the points cost to 150. Again, problem solved.

As they are now though, they're still playable, just not optimal. Hopefully the books that follow DA will have flyers more akin to the Nephilim, and less like the Vendetta.

Good point on relentless, totally blanked on that. Same with Lion's Roar.

And yeah, BRB 37 "a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1". So I think twin-linking a plasma gun is your best use of the ability, especially since plasma is awesome.

I think less talk should be dedicated to fixing the DA fliers, and more time fixing the IG and necron fliers. They are the ones breaking the system more so than anything else.

 Leth wrote:
I think less talk should be dedicated to fixing the DA fliers, and more time fixing the IG and necron fliers. They are the ones breaking the system more so than anything else.

Agreed.

C'mon gents, don't make the Unforgiven look bad by whining about how bad our fliers are when we have two, Both of which I might add are actually pretty decent, Neph gets 7 S6 and 3 TL S5 Shots a turn with the Avenger, thats a whole lotta dakka, and the Dark Talon gets 6 TL bolter shots, not to mention it's rift cannon and stasis bomb are great force multipliers which can make a huge difference, Making the Swarmlord I3 and WS6 is just golden.

Also, the Sons of Russ and the Black Templars don't have fliers, do you see them complaining about how DA get them? We DA know how it feels to be abused by GW, so don't start getting prissy when we finally get not only an update, but a Good Update. We finally have some Uniqueness, so don't whine our unique stuff isn't cheesy. Personally, I hope that more of the new codices have fliers more like the DA ones, Good, but not unbelievably so.

That's my opinion at least, sorry if I have offended.

Something occurred to me this weekend regarding the Neph, with the TLLC and the TLHB it has the exact same armament that a Land Raider can bring to bear on one target. Hell even the fluff for the Neph says the TLLC version is the air superiority and the mega bolter is ground support.

S6 missiles are air superiority because they're designed to shoot at other AV11 flyers.

Since several people in this thread don't like to read all the rules - if you make the Blackswords blast then they're not air to air missiles, nothing can fire template, blast, or large blast at flyers.

With all the new changes and new models all DA units are meant to be used within the codex as a whole. Your Neph shouldn't be worrying about a quad gun, if it's deployed well then hit it with termies and take it over. The amount of shenanigans we can get up to now are ridiculous. For 405 points you can field an attack unit of 3 Typhoons, 1 Darkshroud, and a LIbby on bike with Conversion field and Presience, now you have 6 TL missile shots per turn with cover saves abounding for vehicles and the Libby even has a somewhat decent stat line.

S6 missiles are not "air superiority" because they're not TL, they're only S6, and you can only shoot up to two of them a turn. Coupled with a heavy bolter, you bounce off of AV12 (which the big thing to be worried about is Vendettas and Heldrakes), and your performance against AV11 is paltry relative to the high per model price. On top of that, you're AV11, so how are you going to compete against 3 TL Lascannons on an AV12 Vendetta? You're not, particularly not when the Vendetta is much less expensive.

The alternate wargear option is low strength, which is really what the Nephilim Jet"fighter" is, close in air support. It's way overpriced, not enough armor, and low strength with too great of volume of fire to waste shooting it at fliers. If you're shooting a heavy bolter at an AV12 flier you're wasting the heavy bolter.

Just because the book says it's an "air superiority fighter" doesn't mean that it is. In fact, most people taking jabs at the Nephilim Jetfighter have pointed out how ironic that description is.

Again I point out, there are no other vehicles that the DA have access to that are better gunned. The only comparison you might be able to make is the Las Pred, then you've got a TLLC and one LC, maybe two if the target is far enough away.

So this puts the Neph at the top end of Space Marine vehicle shooting.

In what world is S6 "low strength"? Elsewhere in this thread you've sung the praises of the Assault Cannon for taking out armor. The numbers for a Assault Cannon to take out AV12+ is the exact same as the mega bolter shooting at any other flyer. Sooo which is it? Either the Assault Cannon isn't as good as you claim or the mega bolters not as bad as you're saying.

Comparing the Neph to the Vendetta is like comparing the Vindicator to a Leman Russ. The Russ should win that fight every time, it's got longer range and more guns.

Well, according to the News & Rumors section, on Feb. 16th we will see updates to existing fliers and the Templars will finally get access to a flyer.

I also agree with Leth. I don't think that our Fliers are underwhelming or overcost, I think (hope) that our rules represent the new standard for Flier costs. Let's face it, a Vendetta, for what it does currently, should cost somewhere in the neighborhood of a Land Raider.

As others have pointed out, Land Raider Crusader with dakka banner would have tons of anti-infantry firepower. Three TL Salvo 2/4 24" Bolters plus a TL Assault Cannon. But I digress, I never said that Neph had mediocre anti-infantry firepower, I said it was a close air support vehicle with the Mega Bolter. It's as an air superiority fighter that it fails.

S6 is high strength against infantry, and it's low strength against vehicles. You can only glance AV12, which there are plenty of effective and cheap AV12 flyers like the Heldrake and the Vendetta. The Vendetta comes with AV12 and 3 TL Lascannons, and here's the kicker - it's only a little over 2/3 the price of the Nephilim.

Would you like to find out how much better 3 TL Lascannons are against AV12 compared to a Megabolter? All right, let's find out: Link

1.125 Pens w/ Lascannon, .375 glances, also +1 to damage table modifier due to AP2. Ignore damage results, those are outdated due to mechanics changes for glances.

By contrast, Megabolter scores .556 glances on average. Blacksword Missiles score an extra .222 glances on average for a total score of .778 glances average.

In hull points that means 2.6 versus .778 hull points. Lascannons also score 1.125 damage table rolls with a +1 damage table modifier.

But it gets better because the Lascannons come on an AV12 platform for fewer points on the Vendetta - you're paying 50% more and you're only getting AV11. So let's recap -

A) Nephilim costs more points than the Vendetta
B) Nephilim has inferior armor to the Vendetta
C) Nephilim does less damage to AV12 fliers than the Vendetta.
and to rub salt in the wound, D) The Vendetta doubles as a transport. The Nephilim doesn't.

PS, I never said that the Assault Cannon was "good" against vehicles, and I think I've conclusively demonstrated that S6 sucks against AV12.

PS, I never said that the Assault Cannon was "good" against vehicles, and I think I've conclusively demonstrated that S6 sucks against AV12.

I actually do find the assault cannon is good against vehicles. I bring 7 of them in my standard ravenwing list, and I have yet to meet a vehicle I can't destroy. Non rending S6 weapons suck at anti tank though...

 TedNugent wrote:


A) Nephilim costs more points than the Vendetta
B) Nephilim has inferior armor to the Vendetta
C) Nephilim does less damage to AV12 fliers than the Vendetta.
and to rub salt in the wound, D) The Vendetta doubles as a transport. The Nephilim doesn't.

the same can be said about the VoidRaven.

Vendettas are OP, they should be nerfed. GW is lazy and wont do it, but comparing things to them is silly as they make anything else look bad.

Similarly GH are OP, they should be nerfed. Try compareing CSM:CSM or DA tacticals to GH and note how neither is anywhere near as good.

The fact that GH exist does not mean that CSM:CSM or DA tacticals are bad. The Nephilim might not be good, but talking about how the vendetta is better isn't going to solve anything. Of course the vendetta is better, the vendetta is better than any other flyer. The vendetta is better than any 2 other flyers. If all flyers were as good as a vendetta we should just remove the 6s to hit and call it balance.

Assault Cannons are interesting because, due to Rending, they never glance AV 12 they either penetrate (though don't forget they don't get the AP 2 against vehicles), or they do nothing.

 TedNugent wrote:
S6 missiles are not "air superiority" because they're not TL, they're only S6, and you can only shoot up to two of them a turn. Coupled with a heavy bolter, you bounce off of AV12 (which the big thing to be worried about is Vendettas and Heldrakes), and your performance against AV11 is paltry relative to the high per model price. On top of that, you're AV11, so how are you going to compete against 3 TL Lascannons on an AV12 Vendetta? You're not, particularly not when the Vendetta is much less expensive.

The alternate wargear option is low strength, which is really what the Nephilim Jet"fighter" is, close in air support. It's way overpriced, not enough armor, and low strength with too great of volume of fire to waste shooting it at fliers. If you're shooting a heavy bolter at an AV12 flier you're wasting the heavy bolter.

Just because the book says it's an "air superiority fighter" doesn't mean that it is. In fact, most people taking jabs at the Nephilim Jetfighter have pointed out how ironic that description is.

If they were to make the missiles have armorbane or something than it WOULD be an air-superiority fighter...

Oh please stop compairing other fliers to the Vendetta! The Vendetta is priced as a Skimmer! Not a Flyer! That's why it's so OP it's fething ridicoulus! I have no doubt that once it gets updated, they will simply add 80 points or MORE to the blasted thing.

Oh and I agree on the GH metafor.

 Gar'Ang wrote:
Oh please stop compairing other fliers to the Vendetta! The Vendetta is priced as a Skimmer! Not a Flyer! That's why it's so OP it's fething ridicoulus! I have no doubt that once it gets updated, they will simply add 80 points or MORE to the blasted thing.

Oh and I agree on the GH metafor.

Vendettas would be OTT with only 1 twinlinked lascannon, although they would be much closer to balanced.
Even as a skimmer, vendettas were OP.

Glad you like the GH thing, it's the truth.

I have actually had great luck running a normal SM libby on bike with null zone and avenger. I combine him with sammael, a command squad with the FNP banner and run them next to a unit of 6 black knights with the cover speeder and they wreck everything they touch. I then finish the list off with a unit of normal SM scouts and 3 units of 5 bikes with 2 plasma and 3 attack bikes with MMs. It has been kicking peoples teeth in. Null zone with plasma talons is just amazing.

Agreed 'dettas are OP for their cost, but I was comparing the Nephliam to the storm raven, for just 20 more points the raven is better all round, transport, 2 good weapons and 4 s8 ap1 missiles and transport. Maybe all this shows is GW are going to start increasing the cost of flyers?. I have two of the DA flyers, I didnt bother glue ing the weapons in as they slot in and out fine but am looking forward to using them on sunday.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

furbyballer wrote:
I have actually had great luck running a normal SM libby on bike with null zone and avenger. I combine him with sammael, a command squad with the FNP banner and run them next to a unit of 6 black knights with the cover speeder and they wreck everything they touch. I then finish the list off with a unit of normal SM scouts and 3 units of 5 bikes with 2 plasma and 3 attack bikes with MMs. It has been kicking peoples teeth in. Null zone with plasma talons is just amazing.

Used a squad of 3 black knights on the weekend, very impressed with them, used them as outflanking in two games and chewed up assault marines in rapid fire range then put the hurt on some termies, which were then finished off in style by Sammael, was worried his ap2 at strength wasnt going to do enough to kill the termies but wiped out 4 with 4 attacks, good rolling helped a little....

Being ap2 and rapid fire and twin linked is mean!. On another game I had them on the board, scouted 12 inches then moved 12 inches and popped a chimera for first blood then popped a sential while a RW squad turbo boosted then moved and melta'ed a leman russ while another RW squad with flamers torched some guard in ruins, 700 point game and opponent gave up on turn 2. The melta RW squad also survived a battlecannon round thanks to turbo boosting.

Really liking the RW playstyle, nice and fast and really different to normal marines, I used some terminators as well and DWA on turn 2 where ever the bikers were, and hit and run a few times in opponents turn,

 Gar'Ang wrote:
Oh please stop compairing other fliers to the Vendetta! The Vendetta is priced as a Skimmer! Not a Flyer! That's why it's so OP it's fething ridicoulus! I have no doubt that once it gets updated, they will simply add 80 points or MORE to the blasted thing.

Oh and I agree on the GH metafor.

So what's the excuse for the Stormraven? If they add points onto it, it will be unfieldable. I just think GW doesn't stop to think about points *at all*.

I think someone was just asleep at the wheel thinking the S6 Blacksword missles were "anti-air". Those things can't penetrate anything AV12 so someone probably castrated the stats at some point before print.

If they nerf bat the AV12 flyers there would be more problems. As it is, DA players are a small minority so releasing new expensive flyers with craptastic stats doesnt have much impact as a lot of people dont get how bad these things really are.

 Ministry wrote:
I think someone was just asleep at the wheel thinking the S6 Blacksword missles were "anti-air". Those things can't penetrate anything AV12 so someone probably castrated the stats at some point before print.

If they nerf bat the AV12 flyers there would be more problems. As it is, DA players are a small minority so releasing new expensive flyers with craptastic stats doesnt have much impact as a lot of people dont get how bad these things really are.

how many AV 12 flyers are there?
Vendetta, Storm Raven, Helturkey, Valkarie

How many AV 11 Flyers are there?
Void Raven, Storm Talon, Nephilim, Dark Talon, Doom Scythe, Night Scythe

How many AV 10 Flyers are there?
Razorwing, Dakkajet, Blitzbommer, Burnabommer

What other flyers are their? T5 and T6 FMC

So really, half the AV12 flyers are problems with the IG codex. The stormtalon and helturkey are supposed to be heavily armored flyers. Complaining that str6 doesnt hurt them is like complaining that your AT Krak Missile has trouble touching Land Raiders. Helturkey's and Storm Ravens cost nearly as much as a Landraider too.

Str6 is great against FMC, and the AV10 flyers. It is still pretty good against the AV11 flyers. It is not a misprint, it is a problem with Vendettas and Valkaries.

 Leth wrote:
I think less talk should be dedicated to fixing the DA fliers, and more time fixing the IG and necron fliers. They are the ones breaking the system more so than anything else.

I totally agree with this. Fliers shouldn't be exceptionally common, nor exceptionally powerful (unless at a high price). I can see a world where if all fliers were comparable to the Niph then fliers would just add a really cool aspect to the game, rather than add a required component. That sounds more fun to me (and a lot less annoying when playing Necrons).

It's just funny that against AV 12, you are much better off with ground based lacannons shooting at it than S6 skyfire.

I imagine S6 is fine against AV 11 fliers that have only 2 HP. That's not a crazy amount of shots to bring them down. S6 also wounds MCs just fine.

Vendetta and Valkyries............ yeah. They are ~70 pts cheaper than the other AV 12 fliers.

Any thoughts on Lion's Roar? Stupid? Waste of points? Would anyone complain if I used my DV model's combi-plas as a Lion's Roar?

 TedNugent wrote:
Any thoughts on Lion's Roar? Stupid? Waste of points? Would anyone complain if I used my DV model's combi-plas as a Lion's Roar?

I think any combiplas would work. The only reason I would take it would be for fluffy reasons I prefer the mace.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Any thoughts on Lion's Roar? Stupid? Waste of points? Would anyone complain if I used my DV model's combi-plas as a Lion's Roar?

I think any combiplas would work. The only reason I would take it would be for fluffy reasons I prefer the mace.

Can't you get both?

A combi-plasma cannon seems too cool to NOT include. Plus, a master-crafted bolter certainly isn't worthless, especially if you're running the Banner of Devastation. I'm certainly going to try to squeeze it into some lists.

 TedNugent wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Any thoughts on Lion's Roar? Stupid? Waste of points? Would anyone complain if I used my DV model's combi-plas as a Lion's Roar?

I think any combiplas would work. The only reason I would take it would be for fluffy reasons I prefer the mace.

Can't you get both?

One per army I believe.

It's one of each relic per army, not one relic per army.

So I can get both Lion's Roar and the Mace on the same model, yeah?

All it says is "replace one weapon," Company Master has 2 weapons, and it says "one of each relic per army," e.g. I can replace the Bolt Pistol with Lion's Roar and the Chainsword with the Mace.

Although I was actually thinking about just running the DV model as a Lion's Roar with the Sacred Blade, since the model is clearly carrying a Power Sword.

PS, I don't like the generic IC's in this dex. Except for the Librarian. Awesome points cost, good statline for what he is, and he gets a free Force Weapon and a Hood. Too legit, only problem is, I don't want to put him in a ranged tac squad, such a waste of WS5 and a Force weapon :(

Company Master, same problem, I can't necessarily justify putting him in a Tacticool squad with a Plasma Gun if all he's good at is assaulting. Wish I could put the SoB on a bike like SM codex can. This Codex needs a Captain.

Vendettas aren't op, they're what fliers should be. And they're a steal points wise. However I've found them to be less effective in 6th edition, they don't start on the board anymore (which was amazing if you went turn 1) and they are limited to what they fire at now with the new flyer rules having to move 18" minimum and only being able to make 90 degree turns. Hover mode is great but av 12 is a joke when you're not getting hit on only 6's coupled with hull points.

The neph fighter isn't the best flyer, no, and yes, it's terribly overpriced but then again ig can't take split firing turn 1 deep striking terminators in bulk either. It seems like its a balance issue honestly. I'd love an army with thss terminators as well as a few vendettas and a squad of paladins or purifiers but that would be broken.

 michaelcycle wrote:
Vendettas aren't op, they're what fliers should be. And they're a steal points wise. However I've found them to be less effective in 6th edition, they don't start on the board anymore (which was amazing if you went turn 1) and they are limited to what they fire at now with the new flyer rules having to move 18" minimum and only being able to make 90 degree turns. Hover mode is great but av 12 is a joke when you're not getting hit on only 6's coupled with hull points.

wut? I dont even know how to reply to this insanity.

 michaelcycle wrote:

The neph fighter isn't the best flyer, no, and yes, it's terribly overpriced but then again ig can't take split firing turn 1 deep striking terminators in bulk either. It seems like its a balance issue honestly. I'd love an army with thss terminators as well as a few vendettas and a squad of paladins or purifiers but that would be broken.

I do agree with this though. Dark Angels players should stop whining about their sub-par flyers. No one is meant to be great at everything. The rest of the codex is very solid.

TedNugent wrote:
A) Nephilim costs more points than the Vendetta
B) Nephilim has inferior armor to the Vendetta
C) Nephilim does less damage to AV12 fliers than the Vendetta.
and to rub salt in the wound, D) The Vendetta doubles as a transport. The Nephilim doesn't.

So... you're upset that the Nephilim isn't as good as the single most brokenly undercosted vehicle in all of 40k?

michaelcycle wrote:Vendettas aren't op, they're what fliers should be.

Well, at least your opinion is entirely unique. That's very difficult to accomplish in such a globally-connected world. The rest of the 40k players, however, will continue to consider the Vendetta to be unquestionably the most overpowered vehicle for its points cost in 40k at the moment. Maybe if it cost 75-100 points more, its power level would be about right.

PS, I don't like the generic IC's in this dex. Except for the Librarian. Awesome points cost, good statline for what he is, and he gets a free Force Weapon and a Hood. Too legit, only problem is, I don't want to put him in a ranged tac squad, such a waste of WS5 and a Force weapon :(

Company Master, same problem, I can't necessarily justify putting him in a Tacticool squad with a Plasma Gun if all he's good at is assaulting. Wish I could put the SoB on a bike like SM codex can. This Codex needs a Captain.

This is what I'm trying to figure out, too. Same reason I quite like not having to get a veteran sergeant on my power armor squads, though.

I thought I would read through this topic because I've had Dark Angels for some time and I've only just got round to getting back into them. Lovely, over priced £££, codex we have now! Muahaha.

However, I've noticed that a lot of this Topic has been Vendetta bashing... I mean really guys? Quit the focus on one unit c***. We have a butt tonne of units that'll make mince meat of everything else they have!

Break it down. Their basic troops are very weak, they pack a punch with plasma guns and heavy weapon teams. All of which are crap saves, crap toughness and BS3. Cry me a river. Their Elite choices are, hysterical at best. Ogryns? Major lol, they fall like dominos and return nothing. Rattlings, no AP, we have a basic 3+ roll on our Troops... madness? Lack of that lumber behmoth rule or whatever its called has rendered their ordnance tanks to one gun tanks. The only one that annoys me is the executioner tank, still, 190 for a tank is a heavy hit. HQ choices, re-rolls for reserves, re-rolls against our reserves and a basilisk round that scatters 3d6. Nothing to write home about. Their artillery is deadly, but they always bunch up and get flattened. So rough riders huh? Overwatch with storm bolters usually reduces their impact if they even make it there. Flamer tanks are pretty good I will say, but not impossible to kill.

And then we have their Flyers. Cheap AV12 front and Sides that carry troops and rain death. They have to use zoom because to hover would be their undoing, and zooming restricts them greatly, if they had vector dance I would be pissed, but no, they dont. So when they fly over you, they expose that one weakness they really suffer from, AV10 bums. Unleash the anal penetration and they fall out of the sky!

Stop your jibber-jabber about their flyers and feel for them elsewhere. Reduce them to tears when you take all the objectives when you deep strike your terminators and laugh at them when their troops shine their bright torches at you. You lose a tank or 2, hardly a game ender. 3 fire 3 lascannons at your troops, thats a maximum of 3 dead... Try a different tactic. Enter from behind them and pound that Av10 ass.

But thats the problem with most of the modern players. Nobody plays it the way it was intended and ruin the game for everyone else. Tournaments are a mockery of this great game. Why account for every single point? I feel bad collecting Marines sometimes, because we usually win and then have the b**** to moan about how it wasnt easy enough.


Back on topic. Loving the Dark Angels. The new units are some of the best looking in the game.


And before anyone mentions this is my first post, I have no idea what my other account was called.

I agree with some of your points, like laughing as your 10 man terminator squad sits on your objective all game, but disagree with tournament play being a mockery of the game itself. It's just too expensive not to number crunch and make a broken web list. I'm saying this from experience. My first lists were space marine I like these units lists. Guess how often I won, never. Once I dropped some serious cash on six chimeras, 50-60 death korps of krieg infantry and about 6 special weapons packs, 3 vendettas, 2 manticore a and a few russes I finally started winning some games.

Now the new mega list is the necron flying circus. And I see no problem with it. It's the first true mech army of 6th edition.

 Exergy wrote:

 Ministry wrote:
I think someone was just asleep at the wheel thinking the S6 Blacksword missles were "anti-air". Those things can't penetrate anything AV12 so someone probably castrated the stats at some point before print.

If they nerf bat the AV12 flyers there would be more problems. As it is, DA players are a small minority so releasing new expensive flyers with craptastic stats doesnt have much impact as a lot of people dont get how bad these things really are.

So really, half the AV12 flyers are problems with the IG codex. The stormtalon and helturkey are supposed to be heavily armored flyers. Complaining that str6 doesnt hurt them is like complaining that your AT Krak Missile has trouble touching Land Raiders. Helturkey's and Storm Ravens cost nearly as much as a Landraider too.

Str6 is great against FMC, and the AV10 flyers. It is still pretty good against the AV11 flyers. It is not a misprint, it is a problem with Vendettas and Valkaries.

Heldrakes only cost 170 points. LR's cost at least 230.

Alright who has shenanigans to share?

So far my favorite is 6 command squads in one force org
2 Command Squads (HQ selections)
2 Ravenwing Command Squads (2 Techmarines on bikes)
2 RW/DW Command Squads (2 HQ selections on bike or in termie armor)

The base command squad disallows Techmarines, but the other two say HQ selection on bike/in termie and nothing says 1 command squad per choice

Now that I have gotten a few games in with Deathwing Terminator Squads.

Deathwing Command Squad: This one I have found useful as an anchor, mostly as a Deathwing Company Banner Carrier. I will have to experiment with the other Banners. It is also a “Bullet Magnet” (see Deathwing Knights). With the Apothecary that FNP Save really helps them allot.

Deathwing Knights as Bullitt Magnets: I love them, both their Role and the Models. Right now what they do best is Draw Fire, Lots of fire. I dropped 5 of them with Belial in the back yard of a MEQ emplacement and over Half the Army fired on them and this included a lot of Plasma. I just with I could give them a Banner.

Deathwing Terminators as Tactical Terminators: Now I am running in these games with a 10 man with 2 Plasma Cannons. I have also have ran a 10 man Deathwing Terminator Squad with twin Cyclones. I have been finding them highly resilient at holding objectives [until I start rolling tons of 1’s].

What kind of kills do you get with a Plasma Cannon on a Termie Squad? Does that compare favorably to other heavy weapons, in particular the Cyclone or Assault Cannon?

Thanks.

Also, how did you obtain them - two DW Command boxes or did you buy bits from suppliers or trade bits?

Well I've played against them now and I have to say I like them.

Nothing too overpowered, but lots of fight and there are some very crafty combos available.

Deathwing Knights kinda pooped the bed. Maybe it was how they were played, but my TL Dev Flyrant blasted 3 of them in shooting and then in assault they didn't get to swing back.

The T5 seems good, until you realize that so much of the real shooting and CC out there is S6-9, it's not like marines were dying in droves to heavy bolter fire before.

I'm finding my opponents are making a lot of assumptions about how the codex works, without actually reading the entries...

For example, in a Ravenwing AttackSquadron, the Attack Bike is always a separate unit, not just the land speeder.

Additionally, I've seen all sorts of travesties with equipping Deathwing Command Squads. For example, Banners on Deathwing Apothecaries and Champions.

People thinking the apothecaries give feel no pain within 6 inches like blood angels.

People getting Deathwing Assault just wrong. - All Deathwing Assaulters must arrive on the same turn.

People getting the Blade of Caliban (a slightly worse power axe) mixed up with the Deathwing Champions Halberd of Caliban (a very killy deadly thing of killiness).

 TedNugent wrote:
What kind of kills do you get with a Plasma Cannon on a Termie Squad?

Were they did well was during the 1st turn of a Night Fight. They were able to hit well forcing Cover Saves vs. MC’s. Then they did well vs. the large number of Bugs that were attacking my position. They combined with the Storm Bolters butchered the Gargoyles and one of the Giant Nids, that I cant remember the name of. I might of better if it was not for the ing mother stupidDoM ing er.
The other real list I faced was a Ravenwing/Greenwing list. They laid waist to the Tactical Marines and also do a number on the Bikes.

Does that compare favorably to other heavy weapons, in particular the Cyclone or Assault Cannon?

Very different is the only way to put it.
>My Cyclones keeps being put in the position to use their Krak Missiles so I am not sure if the Plasma Cannons are better yet, I think I will need to face something like Guard or Orks to see.
>I think the Assault Cannons are better in the 24” or less situations and as light Anti-Armor.

Also, how did you obtain them - two DW Command boxes or did you buy bits from suppliers or trade bits?

To be honest I have only got one. I am hoping to get a second through the Swap Shop. Right now I am Proxy him with a second one with a 1 armed Terminator. If I have not got one by next month I will just get a second Deathwing Box.

Well they perform as expected vs. MEQs; they have done well vs. the couple of MC's I have encountered. I think they will as well as a Cyclone in Shooty Armies, but Assault Cannons will be a Better Choice for a Deathwing Assault.

 TedNugent wrote:

PS, I don't like the generic IC's in this dex. Except for the Librarian. Awesome points cost, good statline for what he is, and he gets a free Force Weapon and a Hood. Too legit, only problem is, I don't want to put him in a ranged tac squad, such a waste of WS5 and a Force weapon :(

I like him in Terminator armor, especially with the Combi-plasma and Force Weapon, and then add Prescience and a unit of shorty terms. DW assault and fire, then charge and take advantage of the Force Weapons, with rerolls along the way. And at a decent cost.

I finally got a game in with dark angels tonight, it was a good experience. This was for the togit tourney this Sat, so I was trying azzy in my guard blob with raven wing bike support per Natavati's suggestion.

List was Azrael, lvl 2 Libby on bike with Auspex, black knight command with standard of devastation and grenade launcher, 2x 3 bike squads with double melta and attached mm attack bike, 2x 5 man Bolter scouts, ig company command squad with melta and astropath in chimera, Marbo, platoon command with flamers in chimera, vendetta, manticore, and 50 ig with 5 axes.

My opponent was necrons with nemesor and 4 flyers with troops, playing with 3 objectives. I used my bikes to attempt to alpha strike, as with read grenades I could lower the t6 on the spiders to 5 and id them with the manticore. I learned that 1) putting my command bikes so close is a good way to lose them and 2) I need to prescience the manticore or rad grenade if I am planning on such a tactic. Instead the rad grenade scattered off and the manticore shot was saved. In response, he tied my support troop bikes up with scarabs and killed my command bikes with the spyders I failed to kill.

After that, it was just a matter of him killing my 1 vendetta and quad gun with his 4 flyers making me unable to down his flyers until they dropped guys off on turn 5 to steal the objectives.

In the end, Azrael did great giving the blob an invuln, but I lost my bike Libby to my own force weapon with mind shackles because in a challenge he can only hit himself apparently. Losing the Libby cost me greatly with the lack of prescience and an ap2 axe on my opponents 2 destroyer Lords.

As for the warlord power, I am finding it harder and harder to not always use the extra d6 for leadership. I failed a mind shackle check I would have passed with the leadership boost, and failed a bring it down order with the company command to twin link its 4 melta weapons on a flyer. Instead I took furious charge for the blob which isn't bad but with mind shackle around its not what I needed.

I also learned that I need to go second a lot more instead of looking for the bike alpha strike. The bikes are fine in outflank reserve, I don't need them and the banner on turn 1 when my opponent has all their important units in reserve. The anni barges only have a 4++ blob to shoot at if I keep the bikes off and guard vehicles back. Plus it gives my vendettas a chance to fly on and kill a flyer instead of the other way around.

Before I change the list I want to get some more games with it, as my first game was not a good indication. I am still spoiled from my ig with 2 rune priest list that could jaws necrons with abandon while using 3 vendettas to counter flyers. While that list was good, the guarenteed 4++ I believe will prove to be better once I get some more games in.