Howdy all, finally read the da book to cover, looked up all the main rule book usr rules, rechecked weapons ect, so I figure I would share my thoughts.

First, I want to say that in general I am a huge fan of force multipliers. For example, a null zone vanilla librarian costs 100 points, but the effect versus some armies to make them reroll saves increases your squads damage output by well over 100 points. Blood angel priests do the same, granting several units Fnp and furious charge to increase their survivability and damage output over 50 points worth. Yes this hinges on keeping your force multipliers alive and well positioned, but when it works you basically are playing with more points than your enemy.

With that said, the dark angels book is crammed full of force multipliers of many different kinds, meaning I am in love with them. Sure, the units on their own don't stack up to space wolves or grey knights base units, but with the force multipliers working you can exceed the under costed units with synergy and good maneuvering.

Top contenders for force multipliers are the several awesome banners ranging from +1 attacks to terminators in 6, feel no pain to 12, and salvo bolters that out dakka noise marines within 6. The old scouting teleport homer bikes combined with turn 1 terminator deeps strikes remains, but now Belial does not scatter at all with his squad and comes with his own homer, meaning you could forgo the bikes if you wanted and put a massive terminator unit led by Belial anywhere on the table, and reinforce them turn 2 with the rest of the terminators. Cheap level 1 librarians with divination are great buffing units for an hq on the cheap, but the special librarian is not too expensive either and gives you 1 higher ws in 6 inches, as well as getting a mastery of 3. The warlord table is all fairly decent, and includes furious charge or Fnp to the warlords unit. This is important because azrael let's you pick your warlord power, meaning you can always have furious charge if that is what your build needs, plus he keeps his helm so provides his entire squad with a 4+ invulnerable save.

What's more, there is another way to grant invulnerable saves in a limited bubble if you don't want the great azrael leading your force. Add In the dark shroud which gives stealth to all units in 6 inches, the tech marine ability to bolster any terrain you did not purchase, and you can get 2+ cover saves in a ruins for your units.

The book also has a few nasty debuffs in it. Black knight bikes get rad grenades as a shooting blast that lowers an enemies toughness by 1, though as a blast weapon you can't over watch with it sadly. They also get stasis for lowered init and ws. The bomber has an upgraded version that is -3, making most unit ws1 init1. Finally, eziekel has the super version as a psychic power that permanently lowers a wounded target by 3. Sure it has to go off, but that can really take the sting out of big daemons or hive tyrants when successful.

Moving on from the synergies, I like what they did with vehicle pricing for the most part. Whirlwinds are now cheap enough that I would gladly take them, though i think they missed an opportunity to include the antiair missile for them. Heavy bolter spam got harder as bolter razors and predators went up, but all the other options are either the same or cheaper--a positive change. Dreads can finally take the Mortis pattern, but sadly they still don't seem to know how to price dreadnought weapons on an av12 platform, and didn't make a special Mortis load out like I was hoping for. The land speeder vengeance is a massive failure, as its range is the same as a demolisher, it has 3 less str on its gun, is more expensive, and much more fragile. Yes it gets jink, but cover is not impossible for vehicles like the vindicator anymore, and av10 with 2 hull points and a short range expensive gun that can kill you is all kinds of stupid. Either I missed something big, or you will only ever see that kit making dark shrouds.

The flyers are meh. I like the look of them, but the cost is very high both in points and in dollars. You can get strafing run with both, and both are geared to kill infantry, but the dark talons punch comes from 2 hurricane bolters while the niphilim gets 7 s6 shots. 6-12 S4 shots with a s5 large blast is not that great for clearing infantry, while s6 is not that great at busting tanks. If you drop the mega bolter for the twin las you can engage more targets with the fighter, but that is one heck of an expensive twin linked las cannon. They needed either a massive point reduction or an extra rule like tank hunter to make them work.

Finally, the meat and potatoes. The Ravenwing and deathwing. Here i admit I am biased to terminators, as in 5th I ran 25 of them and only 4 to 7 bikes as my main force in the old codex. The rules have changed enough in 6th that these forces play pretty different now. The bikes in particular take a hit. What makes bikes good is the fast speed and toughness combined with a low cost. Chaos bikes are great, as are attack bikes in normal marine lists. Here however you are paying for teleport homers, scout and hit and run on every bike. This drives the cost up to the point that bike armies become far too elite for a t5 marine. Scout does not let you charge if you go first, meaning the scout mobility is limited to deploying teleport homers only. You don't need 15 teleport homers in a list, that's just overkill. So right off the bat the teleport homer built in price begins to hurt. Then we look at what the bikes can do. They have bolters base, and can upgrade to plasma melta ect. All of these require you get close. At point blank range your bikes will fold quickly due to low numbers and assault vulnerability-you have to survive a combat to hit and run. Add to this that normal bikes or Calvary will get to you as fast as you can get to them, and the scout ability becomes like the teleport homers-great for a couple units but not something you need to buy for your whole army.

The black knights seem to cover all these weaknesses by becoming more elite. A short range plasma gun in place of bolters give you a reason to scout forward, plus with the skilled rider they get you can jump into terrain without fear for more protection. You also can take the special ranged grenades for giving the rest of your force better chances to wound with rad grenades. The rad grenade debuff also let's your plasma guns instant death trouble units like paladins. Finally, since all additional models get the plasma, and the black knight with built in plasma costs the same as a ravenwing with purchased plasma gun, buying additional knights for a squad grants more good weapons while ravenwing bikes only grant bolters. I didn't even mention that the black knights get s5 rending base in close combat. Really the only reason to take standard bikes is if you think your opponent will be leaving a land raider open for you to melta or multimelta with the attack bike.

As for the terminators, here I really think Belial is necessary if you want to run termies successfully. The reason is because both terminator types are best in close combat. Yes the standard ones can get shooting weapons, but besides the 2 heavy weapons you get the rest is just storm bolters. Regular tacticals in a rhino bring bolters to bear, termies need to do much more to justify 3x the cost of a tactical marine. So since getting into close combat is the priority, Belial combined with death wing assault lets you no deep strike scatter in on turn 1 with a 10 man termie squad in tow. Both knights and regular termies in my opinion are equally good in close combat, so the main difference becomes if you want to shoot on your turn in. Regular termies get twin linked on the deep strike turn, making assault cannons or cyclones a good choice, and with split fire you can put a twin linked assault cannon or cyclone into 2 different transports. Split fire also gives you multiple options for assault, letting you fire a single storm bolter on your chain fist model at your intended charge target while the heavy weapon fires at a distant vehicle.

The knights on the other hand are t5 for at least the turn they deep strike in, and have no qualm about running since they don't shoot. They are also ws5 which adds up quickly, and the whole unit gets to precision strike meaning the ap2 wielding models, who usually swing at init 1, have a good chance to be killed by maces before swinging. Knights are harder to manage in my opinion, since you need to spread out to avoid blasts but maintain base contact in an unbroken chain to keep t5, which is a big deal to keep the knights alive under fire. Also, managing when to use the smite attack can be tricky some times I have no doubt. Knights are also not troops, but I don't see this as a problem as I rather like the tactical squads and scout squads, and feel that terminators don't need to be troops in this edition.

In closing, a brief nod to the characters. While I mention that Belial, azrael, eziekel and standard librarians are all good force multipliers, the rest of the characters are passable but don't really jump out. Captains suffer from not being named characters, interrogator chaplains are pretty pricy and fearless is already on inner circle, leaving only hatred as their buff; the special war gear is a bit pricy, like shrouded on a character if not joined to a unit for 50 points. There are some good invulnerable saves you can get, but I don't see the point since bikes get cover via jink and infantry are better protected by azraels invulnerable. I imagine that a bike build with a good armor save to lead black knights as a bullet sponge would work well as a non librarian character, as that may make the black knights tough enough to deliver lots of plasma death starting from turn 1.

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts. I'll be putting a list together soon to try some stuff out, and of course try and update the thread as yours suggestions come in. I can eventually do a unit by unit breakdown in place of my initial reactions for units, but I want game experience before then. Thanks to those who stuck with this! I know it's a bit lengthy!

I believe you might not be giving basic bikers a chance. given the idea of force multipliers, if can give a biker unit (or two) the 2/4 salvo buff to their twin linker boltguns, the amount of fire power these guys output will be amazing, and on a very mobile platform. Scoring units that can cover a huge amount of ground can cause problems for many armies, and make the tactical choices much harder for your opoonent. And this is where bikes excel (Although jetbikes do it much better) Scouting also allows for a shifting deployment that can often cause your opponenet to over emphasize one flank over and another, allowing you to deny him enemies on the strong flank, and hit is weak flank quickly, before he can recover.

I don't know what units/character can take the banners, but if you can get the following combined together and fora decent price that force multiplication is amazing.

-salvo banner
-fnp banner
-Telepathy on ML2 lib (For invisibility and other amazing powers)
-Scoring bikers

Good read, shame about bikes as was looking at doing a ravenwing list, does codex marines still do it better?

From what I understand the the salvo banner costs 1 point more than 6 tac marines, goes away if the model carrying it dies, and can only be carried by a 1 wound meq in a 5 man meq squad or a 1 wound teq in a 5 man teq squad. The real question is how do you keep it alive.

Here is one idea for the meq banner.

Stick 4 squads of tac marines, 2 on each side of a venerable land raider crusader near in layered lines like they are British redcoats. Banner is inside the venerable land raider.

Venerable = same thing as venerable on a dread.

Three words:

Land Raider Crusader

I plan to run mine in a unit with azrael that advances to midfield with 1-2 units of tac marines. Where there is an aegis line waiting for them. Sitting comfortably at about 18ish inches out and unleashing the fury.

Maybe a dark shroud(interesting to see if it can be hidden behind a landraider) with the rest of the points going into pure CC/High AP offense.

Should leave me about 700 points to go to town with in an 1850

Leth you read my mind for a list I have been slowly kicking around.

As for not giving ravenwing bikes a chance, perhaps that is fair. You pay about 160 for 6 naked ravenwing bikes. That is quite a bit. Yes, they benefit greatly from the salvo banner. However, using the salvo banner on them means you probably are not using the scout and teleport homer and hit and run abilities. Plus, upgrades for them are fairly expensive, as getting a decent cc weapon necessitates upgrading your sarge to get the base 2 attacks, making even a power weapon a 25 point investment.

Compared to tactical squads, who for 140 get 10 bolters (that are not twin linked granted) and dont have the mobility of bikes, I still dont see spending 160 on bikes if you are going the salvo bolter banner. Part of the issue is that you want your squads clustered kind of close to have many units use the banner, but this imposes on the mobility of the ravenwing somewhat since they will be staying so close together.

Finally, hopefully illustrating that I weighed heavily on the ravenwing before casting judgement, suppose you do take 2 full ravenwing squads with attack bike and the salvo banner. What are you really doing with 14 scout moves? What about the 14 teleport homers? Granted the 14 bikes get 56 salvo bolter shots, with twin linked making that more like 75 shots, but 12 inches for scouting does not really change all that much on the table-especially considering how fast the bikes are naturally. For over 400 points with no upgrades at all (not including a banner squad in that of course) I feel you can make better use of the salvo banner with 3 tactical squads.

Anywho, I will definately play some games with salvo bikes is what this is telling me, to confirm my suspicions. This may be one of those instances where the true value of the mobility can not be quantified via a paper impression such as I am doing.

DevianID wrote:
Plus, upgrades for them are fairly expensive, as getting a decent cc weapon necessitates upgrading your sarge to get the base 2 attacks, making even a power weapon a 25 point investment.

You don't need to upgrade to Vet Sgt to get a power weapon.

DevianID wrote:

Anywho, I will definately play some games with salvo bikes is what this is telling me, to confirm my suspicions. This may be one of those instances where the true value of the mobility can not be quantified via a paper impression such as I am doing.

Indeed. I think you would get more mileage for Salvo out of the Tactical squads as well but I don't think dakka is everything for the Bikers anyway. Sure having 14 teleport homers is overkill in the sense that you only need one to not scatter but you end up creating a no scatter zone around the entire squad. I think the advantage is right there in that while your opponent knows it's coming, you make it harder for them to plan for it effectively. Plus the mobility versus vehicles and objectives of course. Unless you bring in Belial to cancel out scatter but I get the impression that he doesn't like to tag along on Ravenwing's scouting anymore.

Either way it seems like they've become cheaper than they used to be so I might have to experiment with more of them. Normally just brought the one for the homers but not even needing that necessarily adds some flexibility to list making.

One thing I noticed.
Cypher is back (sort of)
Company Master, Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol, Displacer Field.
With the Gunslinger rule, it's not a bad facsimile.

DevianID wrote:
Leth you read my mind for a list I have been slowly kicking around.

As for not giving ravenwing bikes a chance, perhaps that is fair. You pay about 160 for 6 naked ravenwing bikes. That is quite a bit. Yes, they benefit greatly from the salvo banner. However, using the salvo banner on them means you probably are not using the scout and teleport homer and hit and run abilities. Plus, upgrades for them are fairly expensive, as getting a decent cc weapon necessitates upgrading your sarge to get the base 2 attacks, making even a power weapon a 25 point investment.

Compared to tactical squads, who for 140 get 10 bolters (that are not twin linked granted) and dont have the mobility of bikes, I still dont see spending 160 on bikes if you are going the salvo bolter banner. Part of the issue is that you want your squads clustered kind of close to have many units use the banner, but this imposes on the mobility of the ravenwing somewhat since they will be staying so close together.

Finally, hopefully illustrating that I weighed heavily on the ravenwing before casting judgement, suppose you do take 2 full ravenwing squads with attack bike and the salvo banner. What are you really doing with 14 scout moves? What about the 14 teleport homers? Granted the 14 bikes get 56 salvo bolter shots, with twin linked making that more like 75 shots, but 12 inches for scouting does not really change all that much on the table-especially considering how fast the bikes are naturally. For over 400 points with no upgrades at all (not including a banner squad in that of course) I feel you can make better use of the salvo banner with 3 tactical squads.

Anywho, I will definately play some games with salvo bikes is what this is telling me, to confirm my suspicions. This may be one of those instances where the true value of the mobility can not be quantified via a paper impression such as I am doing.

I was under the understanding that the salvo banner only gave the salvo rule to ravenwing units, can tacticals benefit from it as well?

I've only seen bits of the book and don't have it yet, so this is probably just my own ignorance.

"All friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the banner treat their Boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

 marv335 wrote:
"All friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the banner treat their Boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

/groan

Thanks...I think?

DevianID wrote:
Compared to tactical squads, who for 140 get 10 bolters (that are not twin linked granted) and dont have the mobility of bikes, I still dont see spending 160 on bikes if you are going the salvo bolter banner. Part of the issue is that you want your squads clustered kind of close to have many units use the banner, but this imposes on the mobility of the ravenwing somewhat since they will be staying so close together.

From my game experience splitting up your force is a really bad thing to do. I don't see how this hinders the Ravenwings maneuverability at all. In fact I'd say its better for all of the Ravenwing bikes to stay together. It brings all of your guns to bear on a small part of your opponents army and usually you'll take little to no damage in return (if they are spread out). Ravenwing is looking really good.

I'm not sure how to feel about Deathwing though. The increase in cost is meh, and now they have Split Fire which is great, but I'm not sure how I feel about it all.

Well, I'd like to throw my whole army against one flank of the enemy. This could work when the enemy sets up first. Set up the RW Bikers on one flank, move them forward, and then bring down the DW Termies. If the army has enough fire power, it should be doable.
I did this in the 4th ed with my vanilla SM army. Lots of Termies with assault cannons. But there, assault cannons had rending on rolling to hit and not on rolling to wound. Ouch.

2 things I noticed in the book, is the 2 point per marine cheaper cost (with vetSerg upgrade) price reduction across all standard marine squads, Tac, Dev, Scout. May not seem like much, but since all Vet Serg. get access to the Armory this puts them on the same footing as GH for raw versatility and lets you do way better bolter brigands than C:SM.

On the flip side if you want to meched up Termi's you are goin to pay through the nose for the landraiders do to a mandatory 30ppm price upgrade to all deathwing transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'd like to throw my whole army against one flank of the enemy. This could work when the enemy sets up first. Set up the RW Bikers on one flank, move them forward, and then bring down the DW Termies. If the army has enough fire power, it should be doable.
I did this in the 4th ed with my vanilla SM army. Lots of Termies with assault cannons. But there, assault cannons had rending on rolling to hit and not on rolling to wound. Ouch.

This apporach just got better. The Deathwing assault lest you choose, whigh squads arrive on turn 1 AND which squads arrive on Turn 2, with no requirement for any Turn 1 arrivals.

Looks like alot of units have the Flakk missile option too

5 man tac squad with a flakk missile laucher looks like a cheap and effective way to add an allied detachment, you have a small scoring unit that can still take a pot shot at flyers. Add a cheap libby with divination and thats your hq covered, then ally in some cool stuff like deathwing etc.

Havnt managed to get my hands on the new Dex yet as it was delayed, hopefuly ill get it on monday.

Love the Multiwing synergy that dark angels has always had (well at least tried to) and i cannot wait to starting useing this dex. The major thing that our last one missed that this seems to cover is upgradability! Options are always nice to keep it interesting.

Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Liking Grim Resolve. This is the kind of thing I was after to make standard DA a bit different from say... Ultramarines.

Bit confused about the bit about not being able to voluntarily fail a morale check though. I know Combat Tactics allow Vanilla Marines to fail a morale check, but as DA don't have Combat Tactics this wouldn't apply anyway.

I haven't played much 6th Edition. Under what circumstances can you voluntarily fail a morale check?

Overall, I like the book. It's different enough from Vanilla Marines to justify its existence without being over the top (thinks Space Marines riding giant wolves).

If you're fighting something that you can't harm, you can normally voluntarily fall back from combat, like if your 5 Tacticals get assaulted by an AV13 Soul Grinder. Since their krak grenades can't scratch it, any other Marines can just flip it the bird and voluntarily break from combat. Your DA will test against their unmodified leadership and probably stand around getting beaten to death.

Odd that a legion that prides itself on tactical brilliance can't make the smart decision when circumstances demand it.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
If you're fighting something that you can't harm, you can normally voluntarily fall back from combat, like if your 5 Tacticals get assaulted by an AV13 Soul Grinder. Since their krak grenades can't scratch it, any other Marines can just flip it the bird and voluntarily break from combat. Your DA will test against their unmodified leadership and probably stand around getting beaten to death.

Odd that a legion that prides itself on tactical brilliance can't make the smart decision when circumstances demand it.

Ah yes, I remember.

Well you never know when a Soul Grinder is concealing vital information about the Fallen somewhere on its personage.

DevianID wrote:
This drives the cost up to the point that bike armies become far too elite for a t5 marine

But you do not have to pay an extra 10 pts for the Sergeant, unlike normal C:SM. The actual cost of the final squad compared to C:SM bike squads is only a few points difference.

A few points for the ability to 'hit and run' out of a bad combat, scout, teleporter homers, and have a hidden land speeder. Yes please! In one squad you can bury 2 PGs and 3 MMs. Within 12" of an opponent, it is going to deliver 7 shots that will turn marines into piles of smoldering boots.

I predict bike armies are going to be kitted out as ravenwing until a new C:SM codex is released.

DevianID wrote:
Scout does not let you charge if you go first, meaning the scout mobility is limited to deploying teleport homers only

Respectfully, no. Being able to scout lets you move out of fire zones, or place yourself into a better fire zone.

More importantly scout gives outflank! How many C:SM players have gone over Khan vs Captain because of the outflank ability. Deathwing gives you that for free!

DevianID wrote:
plus with the skilled rider they get you can jump into terrain without fear for more protection

More importantly, skilled rider gives the unit +1 jink save.
This means that when stealthed and moving flat-out, the squad has a 2+ cover save.

DevianID wrote:
Compared to tactical squads, who for 140 get 10 bolters (that are not twin linked granted) and dont have the mobility of bikes

Bikes are 50% more resiliant to small arms fire than foot marines, so your 6 bikes will stand up to bolters as long as 9 foot marines.
The bikes also have a 5+ jink save, they also are relentless. They also have hammer of wrath.

I can tell you never played a bike list. Being able to move 24" each turn is huge. Its awesome for late-game objective grabbing. I have won many games by just boosting around the board, then going to the objectives on turn 5.

haven't played much 6th Edition. Under what circumstances can you voluntarily fail a morale check?

When you have to make a morale check, e.g., when a unit has 25% losses vs shooting.

 wuestenfux wrote:

haven't played much 6th Edition. Under what circumstances can you voluntarily fail a morale check?

When you have to make a morale check, e.g., when a unit has 25% losses vs shooting.

Really? I thought this was just a Space Marine thing. Are Combat Tactics now useless?

 labmouse42 wrote:


A few points for the ability to 'hit and run' out of a bad combat, scout, teleporter homers, and have a hidden land speeder. Yes please! In one squad you can bury 2 PGs and 3 MMs. Within 12" of an opponent, it is going to deliver 7 shots that will turn marines into piles of smoldering boots.

I predict bike armies are going to be kitted out as ravenwing until a new C:SM codex is released.

I thought the attack bike and speeder had to split off like the current rules. So no mixed unit of speeder and bikes. No book on hand though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

haven't played much 6th Edition. Under what circumstances can you voluntarily fail a morale check?

When you have to make a morale check, e.g., when a unit has 25% losses vs shooting.

Only if you have combat tactics can you volunatrily do that.

Outside of Combat Tactics its the these weapons are useless thing. So for krak armed units AV13 walkers and T10 models.

A mate of mine is claiming that normal tactical sergeants can take things like chain fists and plasma cannons....

 winterman wrote:
I thought the attack bike and speeder had to split off like the current rules. So no mixed unit of speeder and bikes. No book on hand though.

I just read it again. You are correct.

That's a mixed bag of beans. Being seperate makes them more vulnerable, but it means they can target different targets than the bikes.

Is an Aegis Line considered terrain for the purpose of the techmarines bolster ability? If so, that'd be a really nice place to stick some dreads.

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

lol calm down, I'm sure someone with the codex will get round to it

 Scrollax wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

Interrogator Chaplains are basically the DA Reclusiarch Chaplains and also have Inner Circle. Not read anything about Displacer Shields yet.

I seem to think that the whole T5 in base contact is going to be a horrible trap for new players, especially when people such as myself wield a lot of plasma blasts.
In the hands of more experienced players, it could be pretty awesome.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I seem to think that the whole T5 in base contact is going to be a horrible trap for new players, especially when people such as myself wield a lot of plasma blasts.
In the hands of more experienced players, it could be pretty awesome.

Yeah, your going to have to be extremely aware of your opponents army. Though the 3+ invuln they'll have still isn't anything to shrug at in regards to plasma cannons.

Just a couple of points

Unnammed company masters cannot take a bike :(

Easily missable is that the devastator sereant comes with a signum as standard (lets him buff another marine up to BS 5 for the turn)

And you dont have to buy the veteran upgrade for sergeants to take special weapons

K now my thoughts after playing a game with the new rules.

Vengefull strike and the new Deathwing assault is really good.
Devastaor squads are cheap and really flexible.
The land speeder vengeance has approximatly a 1:100 chance of blowing itself up every time it fires.
and ezekial is a great guy to have with you in assault (the aura of +1 ws and the ability to use multiple powers a turn is really makes a difference)

 Scrollax wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

The interrogator has a statline closer to a C:SM captain than a chappy.

The interrogator is actually a nice option. Your paying for a power maul, and then 5 more points for the zealot power.

Here's a thought. Does scout move grant your bikes a jink save even if you don't go first?

Sorry didn't mean to sound rude just thought people might have missed it.

Some initial thoughts

Wall of shields does not require all of the models, just have to have a cluster of 3 in BTB. The rest can split off So in a unit of 5 have three in BTB, the other two seperate(to keep the blast effect down). That will give you majority toughness 5 for any shooting that comes your way.

Azrael not only makes both wings troops, but also has rites of battle making everything leadership 10(I think) As such you can save a bunch of points on sergeants across the army if you like. With that in mind designing a list around the banner of devestation with just a bunch of green bodies on the table supported by deathwing assault.

thelordcal wrote:
Here's a thought. Does scout move grant your bikes a jink save even if you don't go first?

Jink-- "A model with this special rule that have moved in its Movement phase gains a 5+ cover save until the start of its next Movement Phase"

Scout -- "After both sides have deployed, but before the first player beings its turn....redeploy anywhere within 12" of its current position."

So, I would say no.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azrael is quite good for his point cost as well, even barring his army buffs.

I might be wrong here but I've always counted turn 1 as everyone has moved as they are supposed to have moved onto the battlefield.

 Scrollax wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

Not much help, but any character with access to the Special gear armory, which I think is most named character, knight unit leaders, commanders, and I think the Vet Squad. The Displacer field sheild is an odd piece of gear, you get 3++ save, but if you pace you scatter d6 from current postion. So stay away from board edges. And there is no description of waht to do if you scatter in to an impossible location like an enemy vehicle or impassable terrain, so expect it to get a FAQ.

 Scrollax wrote:
Sorry didn't mean to sound rude just thought people might have missed it.

No worries

Just keep in mind, people might not reply for a day or so, time zones and everything, things do get missed occasional though.

Back on topic:

Its a shame about the flyers being sub-par, although I guess strength 6 should be enough against the flying french bakery, agaisnt imperial armies not so, you would have to position for a rear shot on drakes, vendettas, and just leave ravens alone.

I might have found my new allies for grey knights, outside or guard or crons

 Scrollax wrote:
I might be wrong here but I've always counted turn 1 as everyone has moved as they are supposed to have moved onto the battlefield.

So heavy weapons making snapshots in turn one? lolno. That's wrong.

 Leth wrote:
Some initial thoughts

Wall of shields does not require all of the models, just have to have a cluster of 3 in BTB. The rest can split off So in a unit of 5 have three in BTB, the other two seperate(to keep the blast effect down). That will give you majority toughness 5 for any shooting that comes your way.

Azrael not only makes both wings troops, but also has rites of battle making everything leadership 10(I think) As such you can save a bunch of points on sergeants across the army if you like. With that in mind designing a list around the banner of devestation with just a bunch of green bodies on the table supported by deathwing assault.

The real advantage of Wall of Shields is for DS arrival as I think only DW Knights have it.

Azrael does not just make them count as troops, they completely change FOCs(Same with both Belial and Sammeal). So Ravenwing can nolonger be taken as FA and DW can no longer be taken as Elite. Sounds weird, but that is the way it is worded.

barnowl wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

Not much help, but any character with access to the Special gear armory, which I think is most named character, knight unit leaders, commanders, and I think the Vet Squad. The Displacer field sheild is an odd piece of gear, you get 3++ save, but if you pace you scatter d6 from current postion. So stay away from board edges. And there is no description of waht to do if you scatter in to an impossible location like an enemy vehicle or impassable terrain, so expect it to get a FAQ.

It does specify in the description that if you end up on a unit or impassible terrain you alter the scatter by the minimum amount (in any direction) to avoid it. so its actually pretty safe, the biggest danger being that it will move you out of coherency with the unit your with, but since it happens at the end of phase they arent going to be able to shoot at you any more anyway. Though it might make you vuln to being singled out for an assault.

Mythantor wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

Not much help, but any character with access to the Special gear armory, which I think is most named character, knight unit leaders, commanders, and I think the Vet Squad. The Displacer field sheild is an odd piece of gear, you get 3++ save, but if you pace you scatter d6 from current postion. So stay away from board edges. And there is no description of waht to do if you scatter in to an impossible location like an enemy vehicle or impassable terrain, so expect it to get a FAQ.

It does specify in the description that if you end up on a unit or impassible terrain you alter the scatter by the minimum amount (in any direction) to avoid it. so its actually pretty safe, the biggest danger being that it will move you out of coherency with the unit your with, but since it happens at the end of phase they arent going to be able to shoot at you any more anyway. Though it might make you vuln to being singled out for an assault.

Thank god it isn't the same as it was back in 2nd where the model scattered after the first successful save meaning the other shots would be lost. Such a stupid piece of wargear. It used to cause serious headaches especially during assaults.

Yea but since they cant shoot or assault the turn they show up they can run and have half or less of the squad split off. Goes from 5 hits reliably to three hits while still maintaining the toughness

How does everyone feel this stacks up competitively?

CSM level? I don't think it's up there with Necrons/SW/IG, but it's chock full of options at least. Seems it may be slightly better than CSM, but it's hard to tell with an early "RAW" evaluation, before things start hitting the table.

I am a bit peeved about their basic TAC marine costs, to CSMs though...

 Sasori wrote:
How does everyone feel this stacks up competitively?

To early to tell. We need to see some of it in play before we can make an accurate analysis.

 Sasori wrote:
I am a bit peeved about their basic TAC marine costs, to CSMs though...

Take a DA tac squad, and give them the exact same gear as an identically geared C:SM tactical squad. They are identical (or really close)

DA TACs may be cheap on a per-model basis, but they have no special/heavy weapons and no leader. That's not really all that hot.

Compared to wolves, which are 15 points each, get a discounted special weapon, and a free second special weapon when you have 10 of them. DA are no wolves.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
How does everyone feel this stacks up competitively?

To early to tell. We need to see some of it in play before we can make an accurate analysis.

 Sasori wrote:
I am a bit peeved about their basic TAC marine costs, to CSMs though...

Take a DA tac squad, and give them the exact same gear as an identically geared C:SM tactical squad. They are identical (or really close)

DA TACs may be cheap on a per-model basis, but they have no special/heavy weapons and no leader. That's not really all that hot.

Compared to wolves, which are 15 points each, get a discounted special weapon, and a free second special weapon when you have 10 of them. DA are no wolves.

There is nothing that can really compare to Grey hunters, haha.

Heh, I hear you on that. GHs set the bar for Troop Choice models IMHO.

I think the DA codex has some good gems, and I see lots of cool synergy in it, but I can't point at one thing and say 'ZOMG look'

Edit : Exception. The landspeeder 'darkshroud' made me say ZOMG. Giving 'skilled rider' units stealth means a 3+ cover save (2+ when going flat out).

 Red Corsair wrote:

Mythantor wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

Not much help, but any character with access to the Special gear armory, which I think is most named character, knight unit leaders, commanders, and I think the Vet Squad. The Displacer field sheild is an odd piece of gear, you get 3++ save, but if you pace you scatter d6 from current postion. So stay away from board edges. And there is no description of waht to do if you scatter in to an impossible location like an enemy vehicle or impassable terrain, so expect it to get a FAQ.

It does specify in the description that if you end up on a unit or impassible terrain you alter the scatter by the minimum amount (in any direction) to avoid it. so its actually pretty safe, the biggest danger being that it will move you out of coherency with the unit your with, but since it happens at the end of phase they arent going to be able to shoot at you any more anyway. Though it might make you vuln to being singled out for an assault.

Thank god it isn't the same as it was back in 2nd where the model scattered after the first successful save meaning the other shots would be lost. Such a stupid piece of wargear. It used to cause serious headaches especially during assaults.

Still causes issues with assault, because you still scatter on the phase you save. If you were in assault you have to consolidate back in.

I did miss the part about the minimum distance. good to know.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Heh, I hear you on that. GHs set the bar for Troop Choice models IMHO.

I think the DA codex has some good gems, and I see lots of cool synergy in it, but I can't point at one thing and say 'ZOMG look'

Edit : Exception. The landspeeder 'darkshroud' made me say ZOMG. Giving 'skilled rider' units stealth means a 3+ cover save (2+ when going flat out).

But only in 6" of the speeder, and the speeders only get shrouded.

The real sucker gear for me was the Auspexs. Standard equipment, I think, so avaliable to tac squads, that reduces target units cover by -1. Not much but cheaper, better and more useful than a markerlight as it requires no to hit roll, just works.

Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

dauntless wrote:
Is an Aegis Line considered terrain for the purpose of the techmarines bolster ability? If so, that'd be a really nice place to stick some dreads.

No, the ADL and buildings cannot be bolstered, ruines can.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Giving 'skilled rider' units stealth means a 3+ cover save (2+ when going flat out).

I love the little force multipliers like this. I'm very tempted to get the codex despite no intention of playing DA, just to read all the cool little things that have been written into it.

I love owning the codex's, as it lets me read up and play with the other armies. I think it helps when you have to play against them too.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Giving 'skilled rider' units stealth means a 3+ cover save (2+ when going flat out).

I love the little force multipliers like this. I'm very tempted to get the codex despite no intention of playing DA, just to read all the cool little things that have been written into it.

I thought it would be easy to field a DW or RW ally detachment. But Belial only unlocks DW as troops if its a main detachment. The same holds for Sammael and RW. So in a DA ally detachment, some troops would be necessary, like Scouts who got cheaper this edition.

You can ally in a darkshroud though and have it effect your other units.

Lets say your playing an IG chimera wall behind an aegis line. You ally in one darkshroud and stick it next to a few of your chimeras. You give the chimeras a 3+ cover save from the aegis line.

You just keep zipping the darkshround in circles so its getting a 2+ cover save. It acts a good speed bump that must be shot before your chimeras.

Mythantor wrote:
Just a couple of points

Easily missable is that the devastator sereant comes with a auspex as standard (lets him buff another marine up to BS 5 for the turn)

Vengefull strike and the new Deathwing assault is really good. Devastaor squads are cheap and really flexable. The land speeder vengeance has approximatly a 1:100 chance of blowing itself up every time it fires. and ezekial is a great guy to have with you in assault (the aura of +1 ws and the ability to use multiple powers a turn is really makes a difference)

That's not what the Auspex does. What you're describing is the Signum. The Auspex is a piece of Special Issue Wargear that allows a model to reduce a unit's cover save.

And Ezekiel's been a solid workhorse HQ for all of 6th Edition. Nothing changed about that.

 labmouse42 wrote:
You can ally in a darkshroud though and have it effect your other units.

Lets say your playing an IG chimera wall behind an aegis line. You ally in one darkshroud and stick it next to a few of your chimeras. You give the chimeras a 3+ cover save from the aegis line.

You just keep zipping the darkshround in circles so its getting a 2+ cover save. It acts a good speed bump that must be shot before your chimeras.

Or I guess you could put it out of LoS. But that could be very funny. Giving Medusae with camo-cloaks a 2+ cover save. I'm pretty sure everyone would hate me though.

The cover is by unit, not by model right? So if you squaded different artillery pieces, you could have 9 artillery with a 3+ cover save. That's horrible!

Its per unit.

Oh yea, camo netting. Doesn't that increase the cover save by 1?
That would be a 2+ cover from an aegis wall. Owch!

I thought the stealth field thing just worked for codex DA units. Does it work on allies?

Anyone notice that DA pay 15 more points for their razorbacks and they have not advantages over C:SM razors. Very frustrating.

That's probably to discourage the return of the 'razorspam' lists, especially since you can now have a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon.

 Compel wrote:
That's probably to discourage the return of the 'razorspam' lists, especially since you can now have a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon.

I am certain GW doesn't put that much thought into it.

 wuestenfux wrote:

dauntless wrote:
Is an Aegis Line considered terrain for the purpose of the techmarines bolster ability? If so, that'd be a really nice place to stick some dreads.

No, the ADL and buildings cannot be bolstered, ruines can.

The text in the DA codex says one piece of terrain. Nothing is said about only ruins. The question is whether or not fortifications are considered terrain.

dauntless wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

dauntless wrote:
Is an Aegis Line considered terrain for the purpose of the techmarines bolster ability? If so, that'd be a really nice place to stick some dreads.

No, the ADL and buildings cannot be bolstered, ruines can.

The text in the DA codex says one piece of terrain. Nothing is said about only ruins. The question is whether or not fortifications are considered terrain.

well they count against terrain density.

and each profile states it has a terrain type.

so sure consider them terrain.

So whats everyones opinions on DW Knights? Are they worth taking a squad of 5 or is it probably better just to make them into terminators?

Rules clearly state in the fortify terrain rule that purchased terrain cannot be fortified.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Eh... are you sure that's how it's supposed to work? I thought it'd only give any individual models within 6' of the shroud-speeder...

I thought that's what changed in 6th... hence why ork Kanwall don't work real well now.

Am I wrong?

 whembly wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Eh... are you sure that's how it's supposed to work? I thought it'd only give any individual models within 6' of the shroud-speeder...

I thought that's what changed in 6th... hence why ork Kanwall don't work real well now.

Am I wrong?

Ork kanwall doesn't work too well because the Kans got much weaker, and the KFF that used to give them a +4 save only gives +5 now. It still gives the entire unit a cover save. The kans went from not caring about glances and ignoring them entirely on a +4 to having 2 glances = death and only ignoring them on a +5.

This speeders sounds like a literal ripoff of the KFF, just stuck on a much stupider platform.

Also, sounds like I need to start putting together some colossi if that's how that shroud speeder is going to work. Otherwise you just won't be able to kill the friggin bikes before it's too late.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Eh... are you sure that's how it's supposed to work? I thought it'd only give any individual models within 6' of the shroud-speeder...

I thought that's what changed in 6th... hence why ork Kanwall don't work real well now.

Am I wrong?

Ork kanwall doesn't work too well because the Kans got much weaker, and the KFF that used to give them a +4 save only gives +5 now. It still gives the entire unit a cover save. The kans went from not caring about glances and ignoring them entirely on a +4 to having 2 glances = death and only ignoring them on a +5.

This speeders sounds like a literal ripoff of the KFF, just stuck on a much stupider platform.

Also, sounds like I need to start putting together some colossi if that's how that shroud speeder is going to work. Otherwise you just won't be able to kill the friggin bikes before it's too late.

Slight correction squads of vehicles only those within the range of the kff get the save so just make sure that the closest is within range. That was faq's not to long ago but well before 6th though.

pepe5454 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Eh... are you sure that's how it's supposed to work? I thought it'd only give any individual models within 6' of the shroud-speeder...

I thought that's what changed in 6th... hence why ork Kanwall don't work real well now.

Am I wrong?

Ork kanwall doesn't work too well because the Kans got much weaker, and the KFF that used to give them a +4 save only gives +5 now. It still gives the entire unit a cover save. The kans went from not caring about glances and ignoring them entirely on a +4 to having 2 glances = death and only ignoring them on a +5.

This speeders sounds like a literal ripoff of the KFF, just stuck on a much stupider platform.

Also, sounds like I need to start putting together some colossi if that's how that shroud speeder is going to work. Otherwise you just won't be able to kill the friggin bikes before it's too late.

Slight correction squads of vehicles only those within the range of the kff get the save so just make sure that the closest is within range. That was faq's not to long ago but well before 6th though.

That's what I was thinking...

So... that flying shroud thingy... the whole squad gets it then if one bike is within 6"?

Rule on Stealth is that only 1 model in the squad has to have it.

Cover is by model, not by unit.

 sudojoe wrote:
I thought the stealth field thing just worked for codex DA units. Does it work on allies?

The +1 cover bonus applies to friendly units within 6". So it isn't limited to DAs.
However the other bonus to combat results only apply to dark angels.

I thought that a dark angel army using the salvo banner nd lots of marines behind an aegis with the dark shroud would be awesome until I realized how much of a hard counter Helldrakes truly are to this type of list Same goes for Ravenwing using the DS, I think they could be decent gimic lists but I am not sure how competitive they will be.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Cover is by model, not by unit.

However, the ork's KFF specifically states the UNIT receives the cover save, so one boy in range gives the whole mob a +5 cover save, with no focus fire shenanigans allowed.

Depending on how the shroudspeeder's rule is worded, it may well work in the same way (i.e. only one has to be in range to give the unit the save)

I really think the salvo banner is designed to function with bikes perfectly and better then with tacticals. Bikes have relentless so they always get 4 shots at 24" even after they move 12". Giving the, a huge effective range, not leaving your opponent with the ability outmaneuver your shooting. You may get less bolters, but you'll be shooting 4 with shots a hell of a lot more often, so it will look like more bolters.

Belial with a ten man Deathwing squad with two assault cannons. Drops behind enemy tank line turn one with no scatter. Twin linked assault cannons that can split fire means two dead tanks turn one. Then the rest of the Deathwing drop in on Belial's homer turn two. Sounds good in theory, anyway.

DevianID wrote:
Howdy all, finally read the da book to cover, looked up all the main rule book usr rules, rechecked weapons ect, so I figure I would share my thoughts.

.....The land speeder vengeance is a massive failure, as its range is the same as a demolisher, it has 3 less str on its gun, is more expensive, and much more fragile. Yes it gets jink, but cover is not impossible for vehicles like the vindicator anymore, and av10 with 2 hull points and a short range expensive gun that can kill you is all kinds of stupid. Either I missed something big, or you will only ever see that kit making dark shrouds....

I'm not sure, but I think you might be underselling the Vengence. While I agree, at a glance, it does appear to be less useful than a vindicator, but keep in mind, land speeders can deepstrike, so range is not really much of an issue while the vindicator is not so flexible. Also, you can move 12" and still fire the big gun, so effective range is 36" versus the vindicator's 30". So the way I see it, you will always have a chance to destroy a high value target with the Vengence before it gets shot down, while with the vindicator, you really have to work for it. Its best use is obviously against heavy troops, as a plasma large blast marker and assault cannon attack will potentially wipe a squad, and the ability to drop in on any target should not be overlooked.

Can the Vengence be purchased in a land speeder squadron or are they separate (and can only be purchased singly)? Also, what are the front turret options? Is it just HB/AC or can you put a multimelta or possibly even another plasma weapon on it?

Belial with a ten man Deathwing squad with two assault cannons. Drops behind enemy tank line turn one with no scatter. Twin linked assault cannons that can split fire means two dead tanks turn one. Then the rest of the Deathwing drop in on Belial's homer turn two. Sounds good in theory, anyway.

I think a ten man squad with Belial is great but you don't need to be playing a pure DW list. I would take a command squad with Belial that has Banner of Dakka and place them near a couple of tac squads with PCs and MLs and a Libbie with divination as my shooting base. Then add what ever else you like. That whole core s only around 1200 points. Leaves a lot of room for other tricks and toys.

why would you waste points on belial and a shooty termy squad that sit on the back side of the table? Terms are meant to be up close and personal, doesn't matter if they're shooty or not, they need to be in the opponents face, or your just wasting points, IMO.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

DevianID wrote:
Howdy all, finally read the da book to cover, looked up all the main rule book usr rules, rechecked weapons ect, so I figure I would share my thoughts.

.....The land speeder vengeance is a massive failure, as its range is the same as a demolisher, it has 3 less str on its gun, is more expensive, and much more fragile. Yes it gets jink, but cover is not impossible for vehicles like the vindicator anymore, and av10 with 2 hull points and a short range expensive gun that can kill you is all kinds of stupid. Either I missed something big, or you will only ever see that kit making dark shrouds....

I'm not sure, but I think you might be underselling the Vengence. While I agree, at a glance, it does appear to be less useful than a vindicator, but keep in mind, land speeders can deepstrike, so range is not really much of an issue while the vindicator is not so flexible. Also, you can move 12" and still fire the big gun, so effective range is 36" versus the vindicator's 30". So the way I see it, you will always have a chance to destroy a high value target with the Vengence before it gets shot down, while with the vindicator, you really have to work for it. Its best use is obviously against heavy troops, as a plasma large blast marker and assault cannon attack will potentially wipe a squad, and the ability to drop in on any target should not be overlooked.

Can the Vengence be purchased in a land speeder squadron or are they separate (and can only be purchased singly)? Also, what are the front turret options? Is it just HB/AC or can you put a multimelta or possibly even another plasma weapon on it?

Unlike the demolisher it is a dual fire gun either a heavy3 Plasma or a large blast plasma that as I recall does not suffer the problem of being ordance.

Being ordnance is usually considered a GOOD thing though. That gives you 2d6 pick highest if you try to kill a vehicle, which would make it a lot more dangerous.

So it's a 3 shot small blast, or a one shot large blast? And fast vehicle?

That actually doesn't sound so bad. I'll take my executioners over it any day, but it doesn't sound terribad like the fliers seem to be.

Actually, the Vengeance isn't a Heavy 3 Blast. It's a Heavy 3. It's a cool model but a horrible competitive choice.

What problem of being ordinance? On the vindicator ordinance is always good is it not?. As for load, the vengeance is only a heavy, not a ravenwing support unit, gets a heavy bolter, av 10 and 2 hull points. As for threat range, deep strike is bad as it keeps you off the table and opens the potential to scatter horribly.. Yes you can move 12 and shoot, but you better hope you like that one shot your going to get as even bolters can down your expensive speeder. Meh, like I said its range is short and has no defense, all for plasma that is so easy to get elsewhere.

As to ravenwing bikes, I agree the bolter banner is good on them, but the toughness and cover save do nothing versus so many kinds of attacks. Also, the tactical squads pair better with the awesome aegis line. Like I said, I will try them, but I feel that beyond scouting melta and homers for termies, which only require 3 bikes with attached multimeltas, additional bikes or full bike armies cost too much since there is no turn 1 scout assault.

The problem with ordnance is that other weapons have to snap fire if you fire ordnance. Not a problem for the vindicator but the vengeance has an assault cannon to fire, too. Usually GW makes the new shiny kits the best, but this time all the new stuff is pretty crappy.

Rbb wrote:Belial with a ten man Deathwing squad with two assault cannons. Drops behind enemy tank line turn one with no scatter. Twin linked assault cannons that can split fire means two dead tanks turn one. Then the rest of the Deathwing drop in on Belial's homer turn two. Sounds good in theory, anyway.

I prefer a Cyclone but that's what I tried today, a Cyclone and an Assault Cannon, but you only get to split one of them. Which is still more useful than I was thinking at first but I was also hitting Chaos Marines. Was also surprised Preferred Enemy seemed to help. As far as dropping on Belials homer goes I'm thinking you have to roll for reserves as Deathwing Assault has you pick your units and turn and they arrive on the chosen turn (1 or 2) so the first set could come in either and the other would be in reserves and otherwise could do that. Least that's how it looks to me. Either way 11 no scatter Deathwing fully armed dropping like that... makes people worry.

Hulksmash wrote:Actually, the Vengeance isn't a Heavy 3 Blast. It's a Heavy 3. It's a cool model but a horrible competitive choice.

Or more specifically Heavy 3 OR Heavy 1 Large Blast. If you can catch clustered units that seems like it would come in handy.

I played my first game with the new codex tonight, I was most impressed by the venerable dreadnought, it proved to be the best thing for its point cost by far in the list I used. Also, I don't know how new of a thing this is, but putting a heavy weapon in a 5 man tac squad proved to be the second best part of the game I played. So far, I love this codex, the last codex felt so one dimensional.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

So the shroud of angels entry reads that "...all friendly units within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds gain the Stealth special rule..."

The stealth special rule starts out "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover save as being 1 point better than normal..."

This would lead me to believe that as long as one model from a unit of bikers was within 6" of the Darkshroud they would all get the +1 cover? Makes it a little more forgiving with positioning this way and less susceptible to blast templates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

I am not sure about this, it specifically states in the Darkshroud entry on page 49 that all friendly units within 6 gain the stealth special rule then goes on to say in parenthesis that this does not affect the Darkshrouds themselves. Though in the army list section it lists the stealth special rule for their listing. Confusing.

tidalwake wrote:
So the shroud of angels entry reads that "...all friendly units within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds gain the Stealth special rule..."

The stealth special rule starts out "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover save as being 1 point better than normal..."

This would lead me to believe that as long as one model from a unit of bikers was within 6" of the Darkshroud they would all get the +1 cover? Makes it a little more forgiving with positioning this way and less susceptible to blast templates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

I am not sure about this, it specifically states in the Darkshroud entry on page 49 that all friendly units within 6 gain the stealth special rule then goes on to say in parenthesis that this does not affect the Darkshrouds themselves. Though in the army list section it lists the stealth special rule for their listing. Confusing.

By RAW there is no confusion. While the Shroud of Angels doesnt give stealth it is quite clearly stated that stealth is an inherent ability of the Darkshorud speeder.

tedurur wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

No it doesn't re-read the entry, stealth only.

 Krellnus wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

No it doesn't re-read the entry, stealth only.

The entry says stealth, but the entry also lists the Shroud of Angels which gives the Darkshroud unit the Shrouded rule.

 Krellnus wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

No it doesn't re-read the entry, stealth only.

Right back at you...There are 0 arguments for the speeder to have only stealth. You go read the entry again

I still don't know if it makes the speeder worth taking consistently.

So it seems theres a type O.... Giving Missile lock SR to Nephilim fighter, it has no blast weapons Unless im missing something.

LSV isnt that incredibly terrible, with a dark shroud around it gets a decent save moving accross the field. Against AV 10-12 vehicles it can pop off 3 S7 AP2 shots and 4 S6 AP4 Rending shot, which is fairly good and it can drop pie plate against infantry.
Get's hot with a vehicle with 2 hull point is worrying though, one unlucky roll and it is halfway dead.

While it seems a bit overpriced and certainly arent as great as BA fast Vindicator or IG stuff (SM vehicles tend to be like that when compared against IG vehicles anyway) I'd wouldnt rate it as worthless.

Yeah... Needs an FAQ or errata soon. Dark shroud has stealth written as a special rule in the army list. But not in its original description on page 49. Book says in summary that the shroud is not effected by the shroud and does not confer stealth to its self. Yet it has stealth. Stealth does not stack with stealth. So I'm leaning towards it not having stealth or why waste the verbage? It would be worth taking if I can get both. Hard annoying unit that dies to lucky shots or lots of concentrated fire power. Limited offense but killer defence. Will have to see.

In regards to DW, what is the recommended squad loadout now?

With the last codex I was running 2 TH/SS, 1 CML, 1 CF and a Sergeant.

Will that still be the norm and is it worth just going all out Assault Terminators for the Command Squad?

the rulebook states under Stealth and Shrouded that "Cover save bonuses from Stealth and Shrouded special rules are cumulative...to a max of 2+"

So...if 2 LS Shrouds are within 6" of each other, do they get the following cover save bonuses?:

Landspeeder Shroud 1 - jink save for moving 5+, shrouded 3+, stealth from Landspeeder 2 = final 2+
Landspeeder Shroud 2 - jink save for moving 5+, shrouded 3+, stealth from Landspeeder 1 = final 2+

all this while moving and shooting.

And as a follow-up question, what is the cover save if they are accompanied by Ravenwing Knights within 6"?

Ravenwing Knights = jink save for moving 5+, skilled rider 4+, stealth from LS1 3+, stealth from LS2 2+? I'm not sure if stealth bonuses coming from 2 different units are still cumulative.

Can someone pls clarify?

You cant gain stealth or shroud twice (Since it doesnt say it's cumulative and you cant normally get the benefit of the same special rule twice), stealth and shroud works though.
Camo Cloak also works since it just gives you 1 better cover than what you would otherwise have, so a scout squad with cloaks behind a AGL with a Darkshroud would have 2+ cover.

tedurur wrote:
Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

Are you sure?

The wording is "The Ravenwing Darkshround has the Shrouded special rule. In addition, all friendly units within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds gain the Stealth special rule (This does not affect the Darkshrouds themselves)"

It seems pretty clear they get shrouded and not stealth.

Edit : I expect that the back entry will be FAQ'ed to 'Shrouded'. That's whats described on page 49 -- which also does not mention stealth for the darkshroud.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:
By RAW there is no confusion. While the Shroud of Angels doesnt give stealth it is quite clearly stated that stealth is an inherent ability of the Darkshorud speeder.

No. Shrouded is the intent.
Shrouded is better than stealth.

If the wording is "Darkshrouds themselves" then that indicates the plural form and would hence mean that you cannot have two next to eachother and get stealth from the other.
Just my cent

DAalltheway wrote:
So...if 2 LS Shrouds are within 6" of each other, do they get the following cover save bonuses?:

No. Read the entry. When it says stealth is excluded, its excluded for "Darkshrouds". The plural indicates that multiple darkshrouds cannot give each other stealth.

Edit : Gar'Ang ninja'ed me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAalltheway wrote:

Ravenwing Knights = jink save for moving 5+, skilled rider 4+, stealth from LS1 3+, stealth from LS2 2+? I'm not sure if stealth bonuses coming from 2 different units are still cumulative.

The entry says it only gets stealth once. You don't get stealth twice. Their save would be 3+, and go to a 2+ if they went flat out.

tedurur wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

Even if it has Stealth and Shrouded (I greatly suspect it doesn't), I don't think the Ravenwing Darkshroud is worth its slot and price. At AV10 2HP, 2+ cover is insufficient protection. A single Thunderfire Cannon, psyker casting Perfect Timing, Sternguard squad firing Dragonfire rounds, etc. has a pretty good chance of taking one out, to say nothing of Vector Strikes, close combat attacks, high strength template weapons, Markerlights, Exarchs firing Quad-Guns with Crack Shot...

Overall I think the Ravenwing Darkshroud is a good "noob slayer" unit but will not be good against players who have adapted to 6th edition and taken units that can deal with cover saves effectively, 2+ cover save or no 2+ cover save. Since good players are already taking such units, I don't expect the Darkshroud to be a big hit on the competitive scene, especially given the distaste many seem to have for the model and concept.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Edit : Gar'Ang ninja'ed me!

Yeah sorry for that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this question I thought might fit in here.
I have (including here what I'm picking up tomorrow) 12 dv bikes (4 of each model), Sammael, one RW command box and one flyer box. As my pure Ravenwing stuff. I also have the tac and termy squads from DV. I know this isn't competitive but any suggestions on which plane to build and if I should use the tac's and termys until I get more RW stuff?

Oh btw one more question. Since GW failed to ship the codex on time (will arrive on tuesday) my local shop is giving us who preordered the choice of Belial, Asmodai or a Dark Angel Veteran Squad for free, which one should I pick?

 Gar'Ang wrote:
Oh btw one more question. Since GW failed to ship the codex on time (will arrive on tuesday) my local shop is giving us who preordered the choice of Belial, Asmodai or a Dark Angel Veteran Squad for free, which one should I pick?

DA vets. Belial isn't good in the type of army you're looking to make and Asmodai is not even close to worth his points. The Veterans have all kinds of cool bitz you can use to customize the rest of your army.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Gar'Ang wrote:
Oh btw one more question. Since GW failed to ship the codex on time (will arrive on tuesday) my local shop is giving us who preordered the choice of Belial, Asmodai or a Dark Angel Veteran Squad for free, which one should I pick?

DA vets. Belial isn't good in the type of army you're looking to make and Asmodai is not even close to worth his points. The Veterans have all kinds of cool bitz you can use to customize the rest of your army.

Thanks, I was leaning towards the vets anyway so thanks for helping me make up my mind!

Kingsley, its possible we play in vastly different meta's, but I disagree with your analysis.

 Kingsley wrote:
A single Thunderfire Cannon,
Exarchs firing Quad-Guns with Crack Shot...

What makes you think that these targets would survive past turn 1? If your playing someone who has no idea of target priority maybe, but for most players taking out a quad gun is not all that hard.

 Kingsley wrote:
psyker casting Perfect Timing,

Assuming they get the power. That's not a guaranteed thing.

 Kingsley wrote:
Sternguard squad firing Dragonfire rounds, etc.

A 2/3 chance to hit, and a 1/6 chance to glance means that each shot has a 1/9 chance of shooting. Their probably not shooting within 12", so that's 1 hull point down. What are the odds of the sternguard living to get another shot?

 Kingsley wrote:
close combat attacks

What's going to get close enough to do that? Its surrounded by bikes. Sure, you might use a FMC to do it, but then your FMC will die to plasma fire. You traded a 200+ point model for a 80 point model.

 Kingsley wrote:
Markerlights

I've not played against Tau in a competitive setting in a long time. Maybe after the new codex hits we will see this.

 Kingsley wrote:
Vector Strikes

Now you have found a weakness of the darkshroud. FMCs or helldrakes can be a good counter.

 Kingsley wrote:
high strength template weapons,

Daemon flamers are a good counter, but then again they are a good counter to everything! Other flamers suffer from the problem of getting close, and then they wind up being a trade. Sure, a redeemer can do the job, but is it worth trading a redeemer for the darkshroud.

 Kingsley wrote:
Overall I think the Ravenwing Darkshroud is a good "noob slayer"

I disagree. I don't think that its going to be a 'big hit', but it will be a good assist for specific army concepts.

Here is the real key. While someone is directing a large amount of fire and attention to the darkshroud, they are not shooting the bikes. That 80 point shield is completely worth it for that. I played a bike army for years, and the biggest PITA was not PGs or MGs, it was torrent of high str fire like scatter lasers or autocannon spam. Now that tools will be focusing on the darkshroud, which is more resistant than bikes. That's the value the darkshroud brings.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Vector Strikes

Now you have found a weakness of the darkshroud. FMCs or helldrakes can be a good counter.

I thought you could not make cover saves against Vector strikes, as it never states that the hits are melee or ignore cover.

I think pure raven wing looks awesome btw and synergy between dark knights and darkshroud is amazing

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

At 2000 points I came up with this after 5 minutes of reading the new codex, seems pretty solid to me. 26pts left over.

HQ

Samuel - 200


Troops

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

Fast

Raven Wing Black Knights (10)- 420

Raven Wing Dark Shroud - 80

Raven Wing Dark Shroud - 80

 Sephyr wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Vector Strikes

Now you have found a weakness of the darkshroud. FMCs or helldrakes can be a good counter.

I thought you could not make cover saves against Vector strikes, as it never states that the hits are melee or ignore cover.

you can't get cover saves, hence why I said vector strikes are a good counter. Helldrakes can tear up those darkshrouds

It doesn't state in the BGB that Vector strikes ignore cover saves, is that something in the FAQ?

Here is the real key. While someone is directing a large amount of fire and attention to the darkshroud, they are not shooting the bikes. That 80 point shield is completely worth it for that. I played a bike army for years, and the biggest PITA was not PGs or MGs, it was torrent of high str fire like scatter lasers or autocannon spam. Now that tools will be focusing on the darkshroud, which is more resistant than bikes. That's the value the darkshroud brings.

I agree with this assessment. Many agree the T5 marines just don't cut it in today's shooty environment. Having the darkshroud option allows bike units like dark Knights to actually live through a lot of punishment or actually make the opponent concentrate the rest of their firepower elsewhere. This is what Ravenwing has been waiting for. Bikes don't have take the brunt of the punishment.

Of course if you spam units like this, other armies will have a counter so the important thing is to add other threats that are equally as important. A 6 man command squad in a LR, rhino or a razorback (for smaller point games) with the dakka banner together with (maybe 3) MSU ravenwing troop bikes within 6" could make the enemy think twice of where to concentrate their fire. Couple that with some cheap dev sqauds and it may be worth something to consider...

On a semi cheesy note...given that DA troop choices can take a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon for possibly less than 100 points, do you think MSU troop choices with heavy weapon options will be commonplace in a competitive environment?

After having read through the FAQ I find not a single reference to Vector striking ignoring cover. Just so you know

As for the terminators, here I really think Belial is necessary if you want to run termies successfully. The reason is because both terminator types are best in close combat. Yes the standard ones can get shooting weapons, but besides the 2 heavy weapons you get the rest is just storm bolters. Regular tacticals in a rhino bring bolters to bear, termies need to do much more to justify 3x the cost of a tactical marine. So since getting into close combat is the priority, Belial combined with death wing assault lets you no deep strike scatter in on turn 1 with a 10 man termie squad in tow. Both knights and regular termies in my opinion are equally good in close combat, so the main difference becomes if you want to shoot on your turn in. Regular termies get twin linked on the deep strike turn, making assault cannons or cyclones a good choice, and with split fire you can put a twin linked assault cannon or cyclone into 2 different transports. Split fire also gives you multiple options for assault, letting you fire a single storm bolter on your chain fist model at your intended charge target while the heavy weapon fires at a distant vehicle.

The knights on the other hand are t5 for at least the turn they deep strike in, and have no qualm about running since they don't shoot. They are also ws5 which adds up quickly, and the whole unit gets to precision strike meaning the ap2 wielding models, who usually swing at init 1, have a good chance to be killed by maces before swinging. Knights are harder to manage in my opinion, since you need to spread out to avoid blasts but maintain base contact in an unbroken chain to keep t5, which is a big deal to keep the knights alive under fire. Also, managing when to use the smite attack can be tricky some times I have no doubt. Knights are also not troops, but I don't see this as a problem as I rather like the tactical squads and scout squads, and feel that terminators don't need to be troops in this edition.

Can you still mix TH/SH termies with the DW shooty ones? If you can then I'd opt for the shooty termies over the knights. They just seem more versatile. If what they say is true that you can have a CML with a TH/SH option then in a 10-man termie squad, you get the t-linked for 2 CML and have enough 3+ invul saves to protect your shooty termies and survive for an assault (add maybe 2 more TH/SS termies just to be on the safe side). Not to mention you can OW if you are charged.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I think pure raven wing looks awesome btw and synergy between dark knights and darkshroud is amazing

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

At 2000 points I came up with this after 5 minutes of reading the new codex, seems pretty solid to me. 26pts left over.

HQ

Samuel - 200


Troops

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

Fast

Raven Wing Black Knights (10)- 420

Raven Wing Dark Shroud - 80

Raven Wing Dark Shroud - 80

Well, it can be quite durable with good cover saves. But it has definitely too less models at the 2000 pt level.

DAalltheway wrote:

As for the terminators, here I really think Belial is necessary if you want to run termies successfully. The reason is because both terminator types are best in close combat. Yes the standard ones can get shooting weapons, but besides the 2 heavy weapons you get the rest is just storm bolters. Regular tacticals in a rhino bring bolters to bear, termies need to do much more to justify 3x the cost of a tactical marine. So since getting into close combat is the priority, Belial combined with death wing assault lets you no deep strike scatter in on turn 1 with a 10 man termie squad in tow. Both knights and regular termies in my opinion are equally good in close combat, so the main difference becomes if you want to shoot on your turn in. Regular termies get twin linked on the deep strike turn, making assault cannons or cyclones a good choice, and with split fire you can put a twin linked assault cannon or cyclone into 2 different transports. Split fire also gives you multiple options for assault, letting you fire a single storm bolter on your chain fist model at your intended charge target while the heavy weapon fires at a distant vehicle.

The knights on the other hand are t5 for at least the turn they deep strike in, and have no qualm about running since they don't shoot. They are also ws5 which adds up quickly, and the whole unit gets to precision strike meaning the ap2 wielding models, who usually swing at init 1, have a good chance to be killed by maces before swinging. Knights are harder to manage in my opinion, since you need to spread out to avoid blasts but maintain base contact in an unbroken chain to keep t5, which is a big deal to keep the knights alive under fire. Also, managing when to use the smite attack can be tricky some times I have no doubt. Knights are also not troops, but I don't see this as a problem as I rather like the tactical squads and scout squads, and feel that terminators don't need to be troops in this edition.

Can you still mix TH/SH termies with the DW shooty ones? If you can then I'd opt for the shooty termies over the knights. They just seem more versatile. If what they say is true that you can have a CML with a TH/SH option then in a 10-man termie squad, you get the t-linked for 2 CML and have enough 3+ invul saves to protect your shooty termies and survive for an assault (add maybe 2 more TH/SS termies just to be on the safe side). Not to mention you can OW if you are charged.

All of the Deathwing Squads (except Knights) can mix weapons. I'm thinking of taking 7 man squads in Crusaders with the following configuration:

Sergeant.
TH/SS.
TH/SS.
CML.
SB/CF.
SB/PF.
SB/PF.

The squad has a fair mix of Shooting and CC and I think it can mix it up pretty well.

Either going to take 2 squads of these guys with a command and Belial or 2 squads of 5 "tactical" Terminators, 1 Assault Command Squad and a unit of Knights or just 1 massive assault squad in approximately 1850, deep striking Belial in on T1 or T2 to distract the opponent.

You can give the cml to a th/ss if you want.

I still don't see the point of adding a CML to a TH Terminator.

Puscifer wrote:
I still don't see the point of adding a CML to a TH Terminator.

3+ invu. Nuff' said.

Puscifer wrote:
I still don't see the point of adding a CML to a TH Terminator.

It give you exelent Close Combat abbility and still be able to shoot stuff 48" away

Ok the 3++ is worth it, but I always put the CML in the back of the squad and the TH guys at the front when disembarking from the Crusader.

My thinking with them is a mix of TH/SS and LC Deathwing and giving the Cyclone to a pair of the LCs. Then when thy Deep Strike I would place the two Cyclones 1st and then surround them the Storm Shields or at least put all of the Storm Shields facing the Enemy.

Could someone please clarify if vector strikes ignore cover? My group claims you get cover vs vector strikes, and my only "argument" that cover saves are vs shooting attacks only isn't really supported by the rules. I'd love to have my heldrakes be good at knocking down skimmers again.

Spellbound wrote:
Could someone please clarify if vector strikes ignore cover? My group claims you get cover vs vector strikes, and my only "argument" that cover saves are vs shooting attacks only isn't really supported by the rules. I'd love to have my heldrakes be good at knocking down skimmers again.

Here is a thread in YMDC about this very issue: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495319.page#5089404

Puscifer wrote:
Ok the 3++ is worth it, but I always put the CML in the back of the squad and the TH guys at the front when disembarking from the Crusader.

Well for 5 points you make your CML a good bit more durable if you end up needing invuls and a much better chance of using it post assault. Otherwise no, a TH/SS in the back as you run out isn't really necessary. I think that becomes much more useful when you try to pull stunts like Deathwing Assaulting right in front of LasCannons etc which is lots of fun. Personally I put it LC's usually and have other models bring the TH/SS but both configurations look somewhat intimidating.

Well I have a bunch converted up from the DV Assault Cannon guy so I'll be sticking with them I think.

I'm going to get a list up soon for my DW army.

I like the new dex a lot. Loads of options and I can't wait to build a Ravenwing force.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Sternguard squad firing Dragonfire rounds, etc.

A 2/3 chance to hit, and a 1/6 chance to glance means that each shot has a 1/9 chance of shooting. Their probably not shooting within 12", so that's 1 hull point down. What are the odds of the sternguard living to get another shot?

Sternguard are almost always taken in Drop Pods, which means they'll easily be within 12". Bubble-wrapping won't help either, since they ignore the cover anyway.

No idea what the Company Veteran Squad is there for. You get to pay more for a souped up tactical squad that cant score? And uses a elite slot? What a bad unit..

Glocknall wrote:
No idea what the Company Veteran Squad is there for. You get to pay more for a souped up tactical squad that cant score? And uses a elite slot? What a bad unit..

I concur, this is one of the few misfires in the book (unless you're playing Kill Team perhaps). Having extended Sternguard to BA, this unit entry seems like a step backwards TBH.

People have veteran squads from back when there were veteran squads. They made the unit so those people didn't have models that couldn't exist or had to call them normal tac squads. Thanks GW for not making our models obsolete - that's what people complain about most when new codexes come out, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of mistakes, how about that ravenwing command squad that can't take sacred standards?

I mean they can take "relic standards", but point that section of the wargear out to me....

Obviously just a typo but until an FAQ you'll technically just need an opponent/TO that's cool with it, kinda like the chaos terminator fiasco.

 Flashman wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
No idea what the Company Veteran Squad is there for. You get to pay more for a souped up tactical squad that cant score? And uses a elite slot? What a bad unit..

I concur, this is one of the few misfires in the book (unless you're playing Kill Team perhaps). Having extended Sternguard to BA, this unit entry seems like a step backwards TBH.

I agree, the command squad does the exact same thing but with way better options, the options that probably should have gone to the company veterans anyway.

Spellbound wrote:
People have veteran squads from back when there were veteran squads. They made the unit so those people didn't have models that couldn't exist or had to call them normal tac squads. Thanks GW for not making our models obsolete - that's what people complain about most when new codexes come out, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of mistakes, how about that ravenwing command squad that can't take sacred standards?

I mean they can take "relic standards", but point that section of the wargear out to me....

Obviously just a typo but until an FAQ you'll technically just need an opponent/TO that's cool with it, kinda like the chaos terminator fiasco.

If you look at the iPad version of the codex or the Spanish version you'll see that this is an error and they can take Sacred Standards. Also the Darkshroud isn't supposed to have Stealth. The English version has a load of errors in it for some reason.

There are still a couple of uses for Vets, I think. They're still a very cheap way to get a lot of special / combi-weapons into a Rhino, which might fit well with a DW army. In an army with DW troops, you'll be short on special weapons but have plenty of Elite spots spare.

 Red Comet wrote:

Spellbound wrote:
People have veteran squads from back when there were veteran squads. They made the unit so those people didn't have models that couldn't exist or had to call them normal tac squads. Thanks GW for not making our models obsolete - that's what people complain about most when new codexes come out, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of mistakes, how about that ravenwing command squad that can't take sacred standards?

I mean they can take "relic standards", but point that section of the wargear out to me....

Obviously just a typo but until an FAQ you'll technically just need an opponent/TO that's cool with it, kinda like the chaos terminator fiasco.

If you look at the iPad version of the codex or the Spanish version you'll see that this is an error and they can take Sacred Standards. Also the Darkshroud isn't supposed to have Stealth. The English version has a load of errors in it for some reason.

You'd think the English company in England would have caught some of this over the spanish version, i guess i know what department works harder over there

10 vets is 180 + 20 for 2 meltaguns + 30 for 3 combi meltas + pod works well, me personally I'm running plasma and combi plasma with standard of dev in a command squad, this is my anti termi squad for my green wing

Do the company veterans get the special rounds like the sternguard ?
In fact, is there anything in the Codex that gets access to special rounds ?

They do not get special ammunition, I havn't seen special "rounds" anywhere except for the combi-weapons. Don't quote me on the latter, I havn't read the book in depthly yet

Has anyone found any use for the Dark Vengeance models within the new Codex?

Yeah the dv models are all over the place

The DV-set-minis?
I don't find them bad...

The Tacs and Termies and bikers could fit somewhere, just standard models. If not, trade them.
The Chaplain is a problem maybe, but nice enough to trade him easily.

Librarian is an fine " Ezekiel " if you don't need that banner or create your own.
Company Master is an " Azrael ", no banner too but Sword and combi plasma and a winged helmet... so add one of the watchers from a dethwing-command-box and your done.

I am just curious does anything in the codex have eternal warrior? I haven't seen anyone mention this. Thanks everyone

 KillaCam wrote:
I am just curious does anything in the codex have eternal warrior? I haven't seen anyone mention this. Thanks everyone

Just sammy

I noticed the points costs are a little high for an IC w/o EW.

I'm also a little anxious about AP3 Power Swords.

All the DW/RW stuff is expensive pointswise too, but the wargear options are definitely unique compared to others that I've seen.

I'm worried that I'm going to have to pay at least another 60 bucks on a DW Command Squad and another 20 on Belial....I'm hoping that with 2 DV kits I should be able to grab a middle of the road Dark Angels list that just goes for a vanilla IC or maybe a SC other than Belial/Sammael.

Are assault cannons on Termies bad? Are Apothecaries worth it? Can I make a DW Apothecary out of a DW Command Squad?

Does anyone know, or can they tell me what it is in the dark angels codex that allows re-rolls of morale or leadership tests?

Played a Ravenwing army last night and the opponent said he could re-roll spirit leech tests from Doom?

Looked for you elder, nothing does, lots of morale 're-rolls but no ld ones mate.

 Formosa wrote:
Looked for you elder, nothing does, lots of morale 're-rolls but no ld ones mate.

So I got scammed over then, it was a VASSAL game, so couldn't ask to see the rule, and he was Italian, and claimed that LD and morale tests translate as the same thing, and despite my best efforts to explain the difference it didn't work, and I just wanted to get on with the game. Shame really, he rolled a 17 on Sammaels bike unit, and a 15 on his other Ravenwing unit.

Why is the community not drooling over rad grenade launchers?

Against DE t3 goes down to t2 and bolters double t removing fnp from units with power from pain and instagibs razorwing flocks.

Against tmc plasma will now wound on a 2+, and bolters going from a 6+ to a 5+ is a big deal. It effectively turns tmc into twc.

It turns meq into battle sisters.

It turns twc into meq.

Are rad grenade launchers grossly overpriced? Why no love?

Give it time to sink in

To be fair, of all the codex releases I've seen, this has been the most well received and one that has generated the most buzz in its first few days of release.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Why is the community not drooling over rad grenade launchers?

Against DE t3 goes down to t2 and bolters double t removing fnp from units with power from pain and instagibs razorwing flocks.

Against tmc plasma will now wound on a 2+, and bolters going from a 6+ to a 5+ is a big deal. It effectively turns tmc into twc.

It turns meq into battle sisters.

It turns twc into meq.

Are rad grenade launchers grossly overpriced? Why no love?

I finally have my answer to paladins! rad launchers + plasma, bye bye you two wounded pains in the arse!

I think the dark shroud is great. 80 points for stealth, and you can always turbo for a 2+ save. I don't know about 2 though, I think doubling the price for no increase in effectiveness makes no sense. If your opponent kills it then it absorbed fire, and if they can kill one easy they can kill 2 easy.

As for terminators, while I love terminators I don't like any squads besides a Belial squad with 10 buddies. You need the storm shield for protection, need the no scatter deep strike to deploy in the deep back field where scouting bike homers don't reach, and need heavy weapons to stay relevant. Assault cannons are probably better than cyclones now because of the hull point rule--versus all av other than 11 the assault cannon gets more pens thanks to more shots, and and only less hull point results versus av 12. Since you save points on the assault cannon, and s8 missiles don't instant death bikes anymore, the assault cannon fits the bill for me. The blast mode is nice on the missiles but you can assault infantry, lessening the need for the blasts to be on terminators. Another reason to like the assault cannon is that you get them in dark angel set, so you don't have to scrounge for cyclones.

Also, I would keep one storm bolter so you can split fire the storm bolter at the target you are going to charge and fire the 2 assault cannons at a vehicle.

On the issue with company vets, I like them as an azrael body guard. This way you make use of his invulnerable save the most, and with eziekel in there as well they become ws 5. This also gets eziekel an invulnerable save as well, as that is the only thing he is missing. Plus you can use the warlord power to get either Fnp if you feel the fighting will be on an objective or furious charge if you need the str boost. Divination to add rerolls from eziekel to seal the deal, and you can outfight anything the deathwing could put together while keeping costs down and bodies up.

Ravenwing Knights are really potent. Dont forget the Corvus Hammers. +1 Str and rending and hitting on initiative. Very flexible unit. Thank the emperor its properly costed.

 TedNugent wrote:


I'm worried that I'm going to have to pay at least another 60 bucks on a DW Command Squad and another 20 on Belial....I'm hoping that with 2 DV kits I should be able to grab a middle of the road Dark Angels list that just goes for a vanilla IC or maybe a SC other than Belial/Sammael.

You can very reasonably convert a terminator up to be your 'Belial', as long as you just use older DA bits and green stuff -- 90%+ of DA players have been doing that for years, since there was no mini, so no-one will bat an eyelid at a decent conversion (unless it uses Deathwing Knights bits).

DevianID wrote:
I think the dark shroud is great. 80 points for stealth, and you can always turbo for a 2+ save. I don't know about 2 though, I think doubling the price for no increase in effectiveness makes no sense. If your opponent kills it then it absorbed fire, and if they can kill one easy they can kill 2 easy.

As for terminators, while I love terminators I don't like any squads besides a Belial squad with 10 buddies. You need the storm shield for protection, need the no scatter deep strike to deploy in the deep back field where scouting bike homers don't reach, and need heavy weapons to stay relevant. Assault cannons are probably better than cyclones now because of the hull point rule--versus all av other than 11 the assault cannon gets more pens thanks to more shots, and and only less hull point results versus av 12. Since you save points on the assault cannon, and s8 missiles don't instant death bikes anymore, the assault cannon fits the bill for me. The blast mode is nice on the missiles but you can assault infantry, lessening the need for the blasts to be on terminators. Another reason to like the assault cannon is that you get them in dark angel set, so you don't have to scrounge for cyclones.

Also, I would keep one storm bolter so you can split fire the storm bolter at the target you are going to charge and fire the 2 assault cannons at a vehicle.

On the issue with company vets, I like them as an azrael body guard. This way you make use of his invulnerable save the most, and with eziekel in there as well they become ws 5. This also gets eziekel an invulnerable save as well, as that is the only thing he is missing. Plus you can use the warlord power to get either Fnp if you feel the fighting will be on an objective or furious charge if you need the str boost. Divination to add rerolls from eziekel to seal the deal, and you can outfight anything the deathwing could put together while keeping costs down and bodies up.

Company vets dont score so objective fighting really is a waste. The company vets suffer because they don't do anything really well. You might as well take a DA Tac squad and save 60 or so points. Your pouring in 360 points into a squad to make it do some something passively well. Even as a DPing faux sternguard their bad because they pay a premium on their combi-weapons.

Bad unit.
Cant polish a turd son.

Also, 10 with 2 grenade launchers mean -1 toughness, init and ws. If the shooting doesn't kill the unit, hitting meq with hammer of wrath, and 30 hammer attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s before they can swing will. In my opinion, while expensive black knights are one of the killiest units around--much more than deathwing termies. The point cost and standard vulnerability to things like massed auto cannons keep them from brokenness, but for people unaware of how deadly they are and without sufficient shooting to down them quickly, they can roll a line. If the rad grenade wasn't a blast you could overwatch with them, so we can be thankful for that.

Glockniel the vets get 40 attacks on the charge and cost 40 points more than tac squads, 30 with a tac vet sarge (vets units get it for free).

I see the upside to the blackknights, but I just don't quit see the point when I could bring 1 to 2 Ravenwing command squads with a dev banner and company banner to lead my squads of ravenwing bikers. Having effectively 6 blackknights, lead by sammel and a libby on a bike (With telepathy, ML2) gives me plenty of combat punch, 2 grenade launchers and the banners. I think I like this build better then bring one big squad of black knights. Feels like too many points in one spot, and they don't provide the synergy the ravenwing command squad does with the troop bikers. Supported by a darkshroud, cheap Land Speeders and tacticals with flakk for backfield scoring. I think this list can effectively deal with just about everything out there.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
stern are almost always taken in Drop Pods, which means they'll easily be within 12". Bubble-wrapping won't help either, since they ignore the cover anyway.

Take 20 bike bases. Spread them 2 inches from each other.

They have a huge footprint. Sometimes this works to the bikes advantage -- like when stopping deep strikes. Sometimes it works against the bikes - like when getting enough guns in range

I second the 2 ravenwing command, samael approach as it also frees up FA slots which we are spoiiled for. I would use 2 shrouded as it let's you split your force if you need to.

I figured since flak missiles are a thing we should examine them. At first glance they seem really expensive, and the las cannon is cheaper and ap2.

So if 6 flak missiles are shot, 4 will hit. 6 las cannons will net 1 hit.

4 flak hits versus av 12 will get 4/6 pen results and 8/6 hull points. The las will score 3/6 pen results, with double the chance to explode. This computes to 6/6 non ap2 pen rolls. Conversely you expect only 4/6 hull points.

Versus av11, the expected results are 8/6 flak pens and 12/6 hull points. The las is 8/6 equivalent pens and 5/6 hull points.

If you get rerolls to hit, the 6 las shots become 1 and 5/6 hits, versus 5 and 2/6. So flak gets 33 percent better and las gets 83 percent better.

So with that, which is better? Well, if you are trying to bring down av 12 flyers, las cannons are the way to go, since you can wreck them via explode results. Versus av 11 both explode about the same amount but flak starts stripping hull points enough to down flyers with glances. With prescience the las cannons again pull ahead with penning results, but you need a librarian at at point, increasing the cost.

In the end, I am more worried about av 12 flyers than av11 ones due to vendettas and storm ravens, and for that ill use las cannons. If you wanted missile launchers for another reason, like the versatility of frag for infantry blobs, then flak is a nice bonus worth buying for dev squads, but since you don't have interceptor the flak missiles will be a prime target when the enemy takes av 11 flyers--las cannons may slip under the radar since they don't sky fire.

As an aside, while flak missiles can down flyers, I would look elsewhere if you wanted real anti flyer attacks in response to a massive Air Force list like cron air. The flak missiles as a dedicated anti flyer weapon are too expensive to spam due to paying for the krak and frag as well, and by spamming them as a flyer counter you waste too many points. Allying in guard with a vendetta and pair of hydras plus an aegis line will net better results than 3 170 point flak dev squads.

Allying in guard is an amazing addition to the army, as you can join a librarian to a guard blob, making them fearless and preferred enemy CSM, as well as casting prescience on either the guard blob itself (reroll misses in combat and rolls of 1 to wound? Ouch chaos, ouch) or on a dev squad.

I'd probably use large squads of black knights against fliers. 10 S7 shots twin-linked? Decent enough, I'd think. Just make fliers a last priority.

Of course you can also ally with grey knights, taking a squad of paladins or at the very least a stormraven - though vendettas are more bang for your buck.

Rad grenade + enfeeble stacks to get to 0 toughness!

What exactly happens at 0 toughness anyway?

 sudojoe wrote:
Rad grenade + enfeeble stacks to get to 0 toughness!

What exactly happens at 0 toughness anyway?

According to the rulebook, when a model's strength, toughness or wounds fall to 0 it dies.
So if these effects really stack as you say, it would mean death.

You would need 3 psykers to knock a t4 marine to t1, so it will require allies and lucky rolls. It could be a counter to guard blobs though. Why has this not come up with gk rad grenades before I wonder?

Doesn't the Rad shot only affect models that fall under the blast template? That would seem to make it much nastier against MCs and the like rather than stuff like Paladins.

 sudojoe wrote:
Rad grenade + enfeeble stacks to get to 0 toughness!

What exactly happens at 0 toughness anyway?

It doesn't. You can't lower Toughness below 1.

Edit. Enfeeble can't lower a Toughness past 1. So you'd have to make sure you do it in the right order.

 Gornall wrote:
Doesn't the Rad shot only affect models that fall under the blast template? That would seem to make it much nastier against MCs and the like rather than stuff like Paladins.

Good question does it affect the models under or the unit?

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Gornall wrote:
Doesn't the Rad shot only affect models that fall under the blast template? That would seem to make it much nastier against MCs and the like rather than stuff like Paladins.

Good question does it affect the models under or the unit?

Went back and checked and it IS entire unit. Dunno where I got the per model idea from, but the wording of the rule could probably be cleaned up signficantly.

So had my first game against tau. Devestation banner in crusader would have worked well if it weren't for eldrad broadside and pathfinder combo going first. Even after it worked well. Azrael is a beast for keeping the power armor command squad alive. Rites of battle save so many points for the power armor guys. I found that throwing 10 man bolter units in rhinos and advancing them up towards a forward deployed aegis worked well. I think having a few 5 mans with heavy weapons sitting in cover would also be a benefit. I am thinking for the 10mans throwing a heavy weapon in the unit. But the extra cost and missing out on the salvo is a tough call.

Also at 13 to 24 a plasma gun is worse than the salvo bolters for kills. So the extra points are hard to justify. The key to making it work is finding a way to work in anti armor and transports. I ran a Mortis contemptor in my list and it was worth every point. Even against tau. Also a great way to work in anti flier. I also have a hyperios which i might try running but its not worth the points for a single missile shot.

I am thinking of taking a techmarine with a powerfield to throw in the crusader to give it a invulnerable as well as the rhinos and other vehicles around it. Double melts is not so scary for land raiders with a 4+

DevianID wrote:
If the rad grenade wasn't a blast you could overwatch with them, so we can be thankful for that.

It's strange, the IG GL can over-watch wall of death with the blast stats: St:3 Ap- D3 hits

 Griddlelol wrote:

DevianID wrote:
If the rad grenade wasn't a blast you could overwatch with them, so we can be thankful for that.

It's strange, the IG GL can over-watch wall of death with the blast stats: St:3 Ap- D3 hits

hrm... got a reference for that? As far as I know, it overwatches with the krack grenade stats at str 6 AP4 one shot.

Huh? The frag rounds on the IG grenade launcher are AP 6, Blast not AP-, Template. Blast weapons cannot be fired as overwatch. The weapon isn't mentioned at all in the FAQ, either.

Sternguard are almost always taken in Drop Pods, which means they'll easily be within 12". Bubble-wrapping won't help either, since they ignore the cover anyway.

They would still get a 3+ armor save so they are not as dangerous as say helldrakes...Plus if any knights manage to survive, the sterngaurd are looking at eating rapidfire plasma, and getting assaulted by Str 5 corvus hammers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can someone do the mathhammer and compare these two death star units? I don't have the codex with me now but toolkit the command squad with all the good stuff and see which unit is the nastier one:

1. Belial and 10-man terminator squad with special weapon options (sprinkle with cc weapons as needed)

or

2. Azrael and a 9 man power armor command squad with all the bells, fancy banners and whistles

Which unit has more bang for the buck and in terms of survivability, which unit has the advantage? Force multipliers or making other units better should count towards analyzing each unit's overall effectiveness.

DAalltheway wrote:

Sternguard are almost always taken in Drop Pods, which means they'll easily be within 12". Bubble-wrapping won't help either, since they ignore the cover anyway.

They would still get a 3+ armor save so they are not as dangerous as say helldrakes...Plus if any knights manage to survive, the sterngaurd are looking at eating rapidfire plasma, and getting assaulted by Str 5 corvus hammers.
.

They'd be shooting the Land Speeder.

I personally am extremely excited to have a new codex. The new units look very promising.

I was relieved to see I can keep my Company Veteran Squad, but their entry is almost identical to the old one pre-FAQ. By that I mean only 3 power weapons. I used my CVS as a suicide squad running around with power weapons and storm shields cracking skulls. I had hoped to run a squad of them with Azrael in a Land Raider for some added assault fun, I hope the FAQ might fix that...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I personally am extremely excited to have a new codex. The new units look very promising.

I was relieved to see I can keep my Company Veteran Squad, but their entry is almost identical to the old one pre-FAQ. By that I mean only 3 power weapons. I used my CVS as a suicide squad running around with power weapons and storm shields cracking skulls. I had hoped to run a squad of them with Azrael in a Land Raider for some added assault fun, I hope the FAQ might fix that...

Be careful. DW and RW can be heavily outnumbered especially if they battle against horde. Fearless horde units do not suffer from additional hits when they lost a round of cc.

Azrael + 50 man IG blob with special weapons and assorted power weapons on the srgs for challenges. I am gonna march these guys right across the board.

Another combo: tech priest with auspex attached to a dev squad to reduce enemies cover saves.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Azrael + 50 man IG blob with special weapons and assorted power weapons on the srgs for challenges. I am gonna march these guys right across the board.

Another combo: tech priest with auspex attached to a dev squad to reduce enemies cover saves.

Why Azrael? A librarian adds more for 1/3 the cost.

As for the Techpriest w/Auspex the auspex only works on units within 12". Doesn't seem like a good idea on a dev squad.

Overall I think Black Knights are really solid. 1st turn Deepstriking with a large Belial squad is solid. Dev banner & Scouts is amazing. And librarians w/guard blobs are hilarious. There is a lot of potential in this book. Pity none of it includes the flyers

I was thinking of building a list around techmarine with invul attached to command squad with dev banner in a land raider crusader. They are then surrounded by a mechanized force. Will really add to the durability of the army.

Also makes multiple land raiders much scarier.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Azrael + 50 man IG blob with special weapons and assorted power weapons on the srgs for challenges. I am gonna march these guys right across the board.

Another combo: tech priest with auspex attached to a dev squad to reduce enemies cover saves.

Why Azrael? A librarian adds more for 1/3 the cost.

As for the Techpriest w/Auspex the auspex only works on units within 12". Doesn't seem like a good idea on a dev squad.

Overall I think Black Knights are really solid. 1st turn Deepstriking with a large Belial squad is solid. Dev banner & Scouts is amazing. And librarians w/guard blobs are hilarious. There is a lot of potential in this book. Pity none of it includes the flyers

Because Azrael gives "his squad" 4++. So imagine 50 guardsman with 4++.

Just noticed the range on the auspex . I guess you would need to paint the target with a close squad and then you can light if up with the res of your army.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I personally am extremely excited to have a new codex. The new units look very promising.

I was relieved to see I can keep my Company Veteran Squad, but their entry is almost identical to the old one pre-FAQ. By that I mean only 3 power weapons. I used my CVS as a suicide squad running around with power weapons and storm shields cracking skulls. I had hoped to run a squad of them with Azrael in a Land Raider for some added assault fun, I hope the FAQ might fix that...

Can't see any limit except 1 special weapon per 5 models and 1 heavy weapon max.
Anything else is available to each veteran.

The only issue I got with company vets is, I used all these different CCW when we had just "power-weapons" ...

DAalltheway wrote:

2. Azrael and a 9 man power armor command squad with all the bells, fancy banners and whistles

There's no such thing as a 9 man command squad.

Also, everyone should remember that Salvo bolters can only shoot 12" if you move (and aren't Relentless).

Now that we've had a couple days with the codex, how are ya'll thinking of dealing with flyer heavy lists?

What is our best counter to cron/IG flyer spam without using allies?

Dauntless, it depends on the flyers. Black Knights with twin linked plasma can get hits through weight of twin linked shots, though the range means the flyer would need to be awefully close. Dev squads with flak missiles are pricy but a multirole unit, and devs with las cannons are good at penning the av 12 flyers.

The All las pred is a decent option in place of the las dev squad, and if your going second and have belial in a 10 man unit of termies you can possibly deep strike behind an arriving flyer with 2 twin linked heavy weapons, if that is worth more than him starting on turn 1. Finally, scouts with snipers and a missile are a good troop to use, as the snipers can rend and the worse BS on the scouts means nothing when shooting flyers.

So after a first few readings, here are my thoughts:

-Ravenwing Black Knights look to be a gamechanger unit. They offer very powerful capabilities against many current threats; I can easily see why Vetock did not allow this unit to use Combat Squads. Similarly, Ravenwing Command Squads shouldn't be tooled up but are potentially strong solo units-- if you field this unit with minimal upgrades, it's basically another Black Knight squad at a slight points discount. Both of these units also promote synergy within the book very effectively.

-Deathwing Knights also seem potentially very strong-- against non-Imperial Marine armies they are more or less "TH/SS, but better." However they require more support than Ravenwing Black Knights to function effectively.

-Belial actually looks weak except with a Deathwing Assault-oriented army, where he really shines. His ability to take one big unit in on turn 1 with no scatter and then guide further units in on turn 2 with his teleport homer should not be discounted. If you don't plan on using Deathwing Assault or a Deathwing Command Squad Azrael looks like a stronger choice, especially given the synergies he opens up with Rites of Battle and dualwing.

-The Banner of Devastation looks like a potentially strong option, though I think this can also be a trap for players with unsophisticated army building skills, as taking a Command Squad, banner, and defensive tools to protect the banner gets really expensive really fast. This seems best in a "Greenwing" army, preferably one using Scouts, or in a Ravenwing army, though the banner seems especially hard to protect for Ravenwing Command Squads. Ironically, the banner is safest on a Deathwing Command Squad, but Deathwing synergize very poorly with it...

-Several allied selections seem strong. Many have pointed to using Azrael with an IG blob-- I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that isn't good, as IMO Uriah Jacobus does a similar thing but better and is rarely used. A normal Librarian does a good job here. One thing to note is that DA HQs, Techmarine aside, do *not* have And They Shall Know No Fear. This means that a DA-led blob is potentially vulnerable to Terrify in a way that SM, BA, or SW-led blobs aren't.

-DA are weak to flyers despite the availability of flakk missiles in large numbers. 85 points for 5 Tactical Marines with a flakk missile launcher is simply not effective enough as an all-comers selection in order to be justifiable, and the flyers you're really worried about (Stormravens and Vendettas) don't really care about flakk missiles anyway. When you add the fact that the Nephilim Jetfighter is ironically worse than the Stormtalon as an anti-aircraft unit, DA commanders may have to look to Allies and Fortifications to help them deal with enemy flyers.

-Whirlwinds, already a very underrated unit in other Marine Codexes, are just plain awesome at 65 points per model, especially in the 6th edition environment. I would expect to see a lot of these-- they have clearly beat out the old standby Dakkapred as the optimal anti-infantry Heavy Support choice.

-The Land Speeder Vengeance is extraordinarily underwhelming for its points. There is very little reason to take this unit over a Vindicator-- I think the Vindicator is outright better in most armies-- and it costs substantially more. Outside of theme lists I don't expect to see much of this guy-- it does have some degree of ability that the Vindicator doesn't against Monstrous Creatures and could be annoying when shooting at side armor, but AV10/2HP/Gets Hot is IMO too steep a price to pay.

Seconded with the vengeance. seems to risky, plus you can do more with a Devastator squad w/ 4 plasma cannons for 115pts. (flak missile squads are a lot more.)


I really like the changes to the tactical squads. they are cheaper IMHO, and they can do multiple small units and still be effective. plus razor spam could make a comeback.


I also like the regular company master builds a lot, too.

The company master builds are nice. It's nice to have solid wargear, artificer armor and relics to choose from.

Fought against Deathwing tonight with my Blood Angels.

Surprisingly not that killy, I found... Though I'm pretty sure my opponent hadn't read the book entirely.

One thing though, they are DAMN hard to actually put down. At one point I had about 25 assault marines in close combat with half a Knight squad and a command squad. I just bounced off them entirely.

Ok so parking lot seems ot be back full force with Dark angels.

Razorbacks cost the same when upgraded with a special weapon option though base cost is more expensive but heres a trick with the codex.

Libby and tech marines are cheep. one techie per one HQ you buy and heres the real kicker read power feild generator grants a 4+ to all units in 3 inches.

Load a dude with it in a razorback or land raider and boom 3 inch from hull invul saves. And yes its an invul save so if a mauler fiend charges you you still get saves versus cqc.

best part is liibrarians and tech marines can take them you could have 4 per army enouph to do a split up mechanized force and keep some mobility. Im suprised no one has caught that yet.

genobraker2004 wrote:
Ok so parking lot seems ot be back full force with Dark angels.

Razorbacks cost the same when upgraded with a special weapon option though base cost is more expensive but heres a trick with the codex.

Libby and tech marines are cheep. one techie per one HQ you buy and heres the real kicker read power feild generator grants a 4+ to all units in 3 inches.

Load a dude with it in a razorback or land raider and boom 3 inch from hull invul saves. And yes its an invul save so if a mauler fiend charges you you still get saves versus cqc.

best part is liibrarians and tech marines can take them you could have 4 per army enouph to do a split up mechanized force and keep some mobility. Im suprised no one has caught that yet.

I think this is considered underwhelming simply because getting 4+ or better cover on vehicles is easy in 6th edition, though you're right that this approach has more mobility.

well i want to play test it a bit because it will save you from melle attacks as well. and if you cont need to worry about LOS you are all the better. though some things like land speeders who cant get that good a cover save will love the invul.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Azrael + 50 man IG blob with special weapons and assorted power weapons on the srgs for challenges. I am gonna march these guys right across the board.

Another combo: tech priest with auspex attached to a dev squad to reduce enemies cover saves.

Why Azrael? A librarian adds more for 1/3 the cost.

As for the Techpriest w/Auspex the auspex only works on units within 12". Doesn't seem like a good idea on a dev squad.

Overall I think Black Knights are really solid. 1st turn Deepstriking with a large Belial squad is solid. Dev banner & Scouts is amazing. And librarians w/guard blobs are hilarious. There is a lot of potential in this book. Pity none of it includes the flyers

Because Azrael gives "his squad" 4++. So imagine 50 guardsman with 4++.

Just noticed the range on the auspex . I guess you would need to paint the target with a close squad and then you can light if up with the res of your army.

Azrael also adds fearless (I suppose the librarian does that too), and if you are doing DA as main you can give the whole blob furious charge with warlord trait he pick.

 sudojoe wrote:

hrm... got a reference for that? As far as I know, it overwatches with the krack grenade stats at str 6 AP4 one shot.

It's amazing what you find when you bother to look something up. I guess my opponent owes me an apology. Although d3 str:3 hits is hardly worth apologising about

Did not see anything about Asmodai (unless I missed a spot) any ideas how/if this guy should be used?

 Bobakos wrote:
Did not see anything about Asmodai (unless I missed a spot) any ideas how/if this guy should be used?

He really shouldnt be used he's not very good.

If you want a chaplain i would think your better off going with a Interigator on TA for the same cost.

You gain Deathwing Assault and vengefull strike as well as a 2+ save and you lose the "Blades of reason" and fear. Fear is useless 99% of the time and the blades look cool till you realise they are str4 ap- .

Did not check the AP...damn...Anyway thank you for the reply!

I think I have caught a misconception in this thread.

Regarding Ravenwing Grenade Launchers the Rad and Stasis effect is only applied to MODELS actually hit by the grenades. It is not a blanket-effect applied to the entire target-unit.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I think I have caught a misconception in this thread.

Regarding Ravenwing Grenade Launchers the Rad and Stasis effect is only applied to MODELS actually hit by the grenades. It is not a blanket-effect applied to the entire target-unit.

Uhm: "Rad Charge: Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the turn." - sounds like the whole unit is effected, not only the models hit.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I think I have caught a misconception in this thread.

Regarding Ravenwing Grenade Launchers the Rad and Stasis effect is only applied to MODELS actually hit by the grenades. It is not a blanket-effect applied to the entire target-unit.

It can be read both ways, and will be argued endlessly on these forums until they release a definitive FAQ.

I didn't even occur to me for a second that it could be read as affecting the entire unit.

Well, gotta wait for an FAQ then.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I didn't even occur to me for a second that it could be read as affecting the entire unit.

Well, gotta wait for an FAQ then.

It is kind of confusing. But if it would not affect the entire unit, wouldn't it just say: "Rad Charge: Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the turn."

Well theres a few things that need to be faq'd, but GW was relatively quick with the chaos faq.

I honestly feel that overall the codex is quite solid with no real useless units or heavily over costed ones and after much considering nothing too over powered that does not have a sold counter (dark shrouded Raven Wing knights might change that, but we'll see). If the fliers were better we'd have have the best codex I've seen in years.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Well theres a few things that need to be faq'd, but GW was relatively quick with the chaos faq.

Errors all over the place. Just noticed that Belial has an Iron Halo listed in the character section, but it's not given in his army list entry.

Yet another perk of the iBooks version. The little stuff that got missed when the book went to the printers gets fixed before the HTML5 version goes on sale.

Also, I don't see how there's any ambiguity when it says that any model in a unit hit with a rad grenade. Wounds are model specific, but hits are unit specific.

I am surprised more people havent been talking about the powerfield generator. I run a 3 Land Raider list for my deathwing (I like the Land Raiders more than the terminators) And to be able to give all of them a 4+ invulnerable if I have them together is awesome. And for my ravenwing I have made a list where I have a librarian with powerfield back with a squad of landspeeder typhoons that he can use his wonderful divination on, while a darkshroud rushes forward with a full black knight squad. Ravenwing no longer seem like a glass hammer. And to boot the powerfield rules are exactly what the 3rd ed codex lion helm rules were. So of course i need to use the Jawa in the dark model to represent it.

While the power field is certainly good for vehicles, special characters don't have access, an aegis with shroud grants a raider a 3+, and the power field helps your enemy when close like in assault.

It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."

I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!

 Compel wrote:
Fought against Deathwing tonight with my Blood Angels.

Surprisingly not that killy, I found... Though I'm pretty sure my opponent hadn't read the book entirely.

One thing though, they are DAMN hard to actually put down. At one point I had about 25 assault marines in close combat with half a Knight squad and a command squad. I just bounced off them entirely.

This.

This is the whole point of Deathwing. They are not killy, they don't mince tons of troops. They are the immovable object that armies pour huge amounts of resources into but only make a scratch.

I have used my DW twice under the new dex now and I've noticed a few things.

Command Squad: Too expensive for what they bring
You need to build around their tricks. Adding Ezekiel is good but then it's a near 750 point unit with Belial and an LRC.

I tried a large unit of Deathwing with two cml and a mix of th/ss and normal guys and they just couldn't be killed. They provided a good distraction on T1 when they deep struck in.

Deathwing LRC + Techmarine: DWLRC are tough to kill anyway, but adding a Techmarine just makes people cry. That repair ability kept my LRC going for ages.

 Compel wrote:
It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."

I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!

But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.

Magister187 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."

I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!

But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.

Right, unit's don't have a toughness so each model in the unit hit by the grenade has its' toughness lowered. If the unit was hit, each model in that unit loses 1 toughness. That's how I read it anyway.

tidalwake wrote:

Magister187 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."

I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!

But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.

Right, unit's don't have a toughness so each model in the unit hit by the grenade has its' toughness lowered. If the unit was hit, each model in that unit loses 1 toughness. That's how I read it anyway.

At the same time though, a units majority toughness is more important than a models individual toughness. In which case the rad grenade has to hit half the models in the unit to have any effect (in most cases), if it succeeds then the unit now has -1 majority toughness.

Except that it's every model in a unit that was hit takes the penealty, so the majority toughness of the unit does go down.

 spears wrote:

tidalwake wrote:

Magister187 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."

I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!

But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.

Right, unit's don't have a toughness so each model in the unit hit by the grenade has its' toughness lowered. If the unit was hit, each model in that unit loses 1 toughness. That's how I read it anyway.

At the same time though, a units majority toughness is more important than a models individual toughness. In which case the rad grenade has to hit half the models in the unit to have any effect (in most cases), if it succeeds then the unit now has -1 majority toughness.

To me you guys are stretching really far to misread the rule. To my eyes it works just like a sniper rifle pinning. If a model takes a wound from a sniper rifle the unit checks for pinning. Similarly if a model suffers a hit from a Rad grenade the unit suffers a -1T, but that would not apply to the rest of the Rad launchers unit since all shots are resolved at the same time.

The biggest improvement I've seen over the old codex is in the base Landspeeders. The restriction of 1 Typhoon per squadron is gone, the full Tornado options are available (and the AC equipped is 15 less), and you can now take a base, Typhoon, or Tornado with the RAS instead of being forced to take a 100 point AC Tornado

andystache wrote:


The biggest improvement I've seen over the old codex is in the base Landspeeders. The restriction of 1 Typhoon per squadron is gone, the full Tornado options are available (and the AC equipped is 15 less), and you can now take a base, Typhoon, or Tornado with the RAS instead of being forced to take a 100 point AC Tornado

Wait?

So, you saying you could spam out Typhoon ML? Like 3 units of 3 speeds /w Tyhoon ML? Schweet!

 whembly wrote:

andystache wrote:


The biggest improvement I've seen over the old codex is in the base Landspeeders. The restriction of 1 Typhoon per squadron is gone, the full Tornado options are available (and the AC equipped is 15 less), and you can now take a base, Typhoon, or Tornado with the RAS instead of being forced to take a 100 point AC Tornado

Wait?

So, you saying you could spam out Typhoon ML? Like 3 units of 3 speeds /w Tyhoon ML? Schweet!

I'm saying in one force org you can drop 21 Landspeeder Typhoons! It's ridiculously glorious. Glass cannon like no one's business, but that first turn you fire is glorious

And the typhoon is still 75 pts like the old dex, I'm gonna rock 2 units of 4 with a shroud to back it up, thats 16 kraks and 24 heavy bolter shots with 4+ cover zipping around, that should handle my anti horde nicely

andystache wrote:

 whembly wrote:

andystache wrote:


The biggest improvement I've seen over the old codex is in the base Landspeeders. The restriction of 1 Typhoon per squadron is gone, the full Tornado options are available (and the AC equipped is 15 less), and you can now take a base, Typhoon, or Tornado with the RAS instead of being forced to take a 100 point AC Tornado

Wait?

So, you saying you could spam out Typhoon ML? Like 3 units of 3 speeds /w Tyhoon ML? Schweet!

I'm saying in one force org you can drop 21 Landspeeder Typhoons! It's ridiculously glorious. Glass cannon like no one's business, but that first turn you fire is glorious

Dayum!

I used to have 3 separate speeders with ML + Belil/Chappy with rest Termies... which worked really well.

I'd be happy with 9 speeders!

One thing I'm really liking about this new codex is that the Iron Wing is a viable army list. Yes we're paying 5pts more for a BolterBack, but the TLLC version is 10pts cheaper and we now have TLAC as another option. Roll that in with nifty wargear and Techmarines finally being ICs makes a mobile DA army (that's not bikes) not only workable, but down right mean. Throw in a couple of Typhoons and your opponent is stuck having to split fire or leave his flank open to your missiles

Yeah, mech lists seem completely viable for DA too. Really, they seem to be able to field any sort of force required. Very cool.

andystache wrote:
One thing I'm really liking about this new codex is that the Iron Wing is a viable army list. Yes we're paying 5pts more for a BolterBack, but the TLLC version is 10pts cheaper and we now have TLAC as another option. Roll that in with nifty wargear and Techmarines finally being ICs makes a mobile DA army (that's not bikes) not only workable, but down right mean. Throw in a couple of Typhoons and your opponent is stuck having to split fire or leave his flank open to your missiles

It's actually 15pts more for a bolterback (quite frustrating) 10-pts cheaper for a Flamerback, and every other option is the same as C:SM since the upgrade is 15pts cheaper but the base cost is 15pts higher.

Coyote81 wrote:

andystache wrote:
One thing I'm really liking about this new codex is that the Iron Wing is a viable army list. Yes we're paying 5pts more for a BolterBack, but the TLLC version is 10pts cheaper and we now have TLAC as another option. Roll that in with nifty wargear and Techmarines finally being ICs makes a mobile DA army (that's not bikes) not only workable, but down right mean. Throw in a couple of Typhoons and your opponent is stuck having to split fire or leave his flank open to your missiles

It's actually 15pts more for a bolterback (quite frustrating) 10-pts cheaper for a Flamerback, and every other option is the same as C:SM since the upgrade is 15pts cheaper but the base cost is 15pts higher.

I've been playing out of the 4th Ed DA codex, so for me the BolterBack is only 5 points more and I've been limited to the TLLC as the only upgrade. I purposely avoided using C:SM for anything to keep a "pure DA" list.

I find the more expensive bolterback to be a good idea. If they hadn't, it would be 5 man Tac squads with a heavy weapon and razorbacks all over the place. Not that its a bad thing, but I for one don't want my army to enable those sorts of shenanigans.

 spears wrote:

tidalwake wrote:

Magister187 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."

I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!

But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.

Right, unit's don't have a toughness so each model in the unit hit by the grenade has its' toughness lowered. If the unit was hit, each model in that unit loses 1 toughness. That's how I read it anyway.

At the same time though, a units majority toughness is more important than a models individual toughness. In which case the rad grenade has to hit half the models in the unit to have any effect (in most cases), if it succeeds then the unit now has -1 majority toughness.

I read it as the toughness of each model is lowered by one. So the majority toughness is obviously lowered, but when you allocate wounds to characters, their T is lower too,.

 Mandor wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I didn't even occur to me for a second that it could be read as affecting the entire unit.

Well, gotta wait for an FAQ then.

It is kind of confusing. But if it would not affect the entire unit, wouldn't it just say: "Rad Charge: Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the turn."

Without trying to sound like a douce I could point out that had the Designers intended the entire unit to be affected they could have written; "Rad Charge. Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers.....".

Steelmage99 wrote:

Without trying to sound like a douce I could point out that had the Designers intended the entire unit to be affected they could have written; "Rad Charge. Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers.....".

As already pointed out, units don't have Toughness, so you're amendment makes no sense.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Without trying to sound like a douce I could point out that had the Designers intended the entire unit to be affected they could have written; "Rad Charge. Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers.....".

As already pointed out, units don't have Toughness, so you're amendment makes no sense.

Units don't have Leadership values either, but they still take Pinning, Tank Shock, and other tests based off of the leadership of the models that comprise the unit. The rule is written the way it is so that if the rad grenade misses the unit then they're not affected. If any model is hit then the unit suffers a -1T.

It's similar to the Pile-In Move clarification on the Displacement Field, if you scatter the full 6" away from the combat it is possible that your IC breaks from the squad before Assault results are determined. Math as so:

IC scatters 6", Piles In 3", but ends move 3" inches away from original unit and not in contact with enemy. IC is no longer squadded and not involved in resolution.

A pretty minor typo: the Lion's Roar is also referred to as the Lion's Wrath in the description.

I don't find the rad shell rule vague. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells..." That's pretty clear.

milo wrote:
A pretty minor typo: the Lion's Roar is also referred to as the Lion's Wrath in the description.

I don't find the rad shell rule vague. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells..." That's pretty clear.

Is it called the Wrath? I know there's a line comparing it to the Wrath (being Azrael's dakka of choice)

EDIT: Anyone have thoughts on running Cypher style DAs? All the unnamed ICs can take plasma & bolt pistol, so can vets. I've been rolling around the idea of a vet squad with 3 PPs, 2 PGs with Lib w/divination PP/BP load out. Lots of shots within 12 rerolling to make Gets Hot less painful

Yep very clear... Wait for the rules lawers though. They can twist anything

Also, the rad and stasis grenades become pointless, rather than reduce the toughness of 1 maybe 2 models, you could just kill them with twin linked rapid firing plasma.

If you only have it work on the models that the template actually hits, then the weapons are totally useless because when shooting and in close combat(Unless attacking a IC) you use majority toughness, and WS.

Clearly it says that if any models are hit, the whole unit suffers.

I can't believe any one can read that rule as anything other than the entire unit getting -1 toughness until end of turn. There are typos and confusing things in the new dex, but that sure as heck ain't one of them.

The one reason why it may be worded the way it is would be to make sure ICs that join a unit are clearly impacted as well

andystache wrote:

milo wrote:
A pretty minor typo: the Lion's Roar is also referred to as the Lion's Wrath in the description.

I don't find the rad shell rule vague. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells..." That's pretty clear.

Is it called the Wrath? I know there's a line comparing it to the Wrath (being Azrael's dakka of choice)

EDIT: Anyone have thoughts on running Cypher style DAs? All the unnamed ICs can take plasma & bolt pistol, so can vets. I've been rolling around the idea of a vet squad with 3 PPs, 2 PGs with Lib w/divination PP/BP load out. Lots of shots within 12 rerolling to make Gets Hot less painful

I'm planning a Fallen army after I finish my Deathwing, but I'm only going to use units and weapons that would have been around just after the Heresy.

I'm so glad that the dex is so flexible that it is possible to do this.

My fallen will be loyal for the most part. Marines that wish to repent by serving the Emperor in penance for what they did and I'm going with the tale that Cypher has been recruiting them from throughout the Galaxy.

Played against a ravenwing army tonight, with salvo banner, its harsh very harsh! he was also sporting sammael and the darkshroud land speeder.

Puscifer wrote:

andystache wrote:

milo wrote:
A pretty minor typo: the Lion's Roar is also referred to as the Lion's Wrath in the description.

I don't find the rad shell rule vague. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells..." That's pretty clear.

Is it called the Wrath? I know there's a line comparing it to the Wrath (being Azrael's dakka of choice)

EDIT: Anyone have thoughts on running Cypher style DAs? All the unnamed ICs can take plasma & bolt pistol, so can vets. I've been rolling around the idea of a vet squad with 3 PPs, 2 PGs with Lib w/divination PP/BP load out. Lots of shots within 12 rerolling to make Gets Hot less painful

I'm planning a Fallen army after I finish my Deathwing, but I'm only going to use units and weapons that would have been around just after the Heresy.

I'm so glad that the dex is so flexible that it is possible to do this.

My fallen will be loyal for the most part. Marines that wish to repent by serving the Emperor in penance for what they did and I'm going with the tale that Cypher has been recruiting them from throughout the Galaxy.

I was really hoping we'd get some clarity on this one with the new 'dex. With Ravenwing out we know that Cypher

I'm going with the protecting it from the Fallen.

I'm one of those who believe that the Lion was the traitor.

Puscifer wrote:
I'm going with the protecting it from the Fallen.

I'm one of those who believe that the Lion was the traitor.

I'd have to disagree on this one. I was undecided until I read Fallen Angels the second or third time. The end of that book puts paid to the idea that the Lion was a traitor (in my mind at least). In interest of keeping this tactic based I think I'm going to run a dual pistol Company Master with probably the Monster Slayer so I can use the old school Cypher model for my Master

So im confused where yall are getting a 2+ cover save for the speeder?

jink (5+) plus shrouded would equal 3+.

where is the last point coming from?

The way I see it, not having read the new DA codex yet.

For several years, the Dark Angels fluff hasn't been. "Who is a traitor, who is loyal, Johnson or Luthor/Cypher?"

It is more... My vocabulary might fail me here... "What is the nature of loyalty, or treason?"

Over the millennia, the Dark Angels may very well have done just as much harm to humanity as they have helped. The Black Templars crusade they destroyed, how much good could that have done?

How different are Luthor's actions to that of the Wardian Grey Knights? He was attempting to protect his homeworld, was he not? Admittedly, the whole road to damnation happens....

Anyhow, I just realised this is a tactics thread.

Mouskowitz, I'm guessing the last point would come from the 'speeder moving flat out' jink bonus.

so jinks gives a 4+ if you flat out then?

plus 2 for shrouded?

 Compel wrote:
The way I see it, not having read the new DA codex yet.

For several years, the Dark Angels fluff hasn't been. "Who is a traitor, who is loyal, Johnson or Luthor/Cypher?"

It is more... My vocabulary might fail me here... "What is the nature of loyalty, or treason?"

Over the millennia, the Dark Angels may very well have done just as much harm to humanity as they have helped. The Black Templars crusade they destroyed, how much good could that have done?

How different are Luthor's actions to that of the Wardian Grey Knights? He was attempting to protect his homeworld, was he not? Admittedly, the whole road to damnation happens....

Anyhow, I just realised this is a tactics thread.

Mouskowitz, I'm guessing the last point would come from the 'speeder moving flat out' jink bonus.

He's right about the flat out being +1 to the cover, IMO only useful at the start and end, otherwise the units it is covering should be shooting.

Until the HH books came out there were a lot of questions, especially with the book Descent of Angels. Most of those questions have been answered in the HH books. We can say for certain that Luther had access to warp spawned powers and we know where the Lion was and what he was doing when Astelan implies that he was waiting to see who won.

The codex doesn't shed too much light on anything other than the section labelled The Final Secret

Puscifer wrote:
I'm going with the protecting it from the Fallen.

I'm one of those who believe that the Lion was the traitor.

Heresy!

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Veteran marines, now that we know they have no access to special ammunition. Because of this, I have seen them being called the turd unit of the codex...

While I don't want to jump to any conclusions until I've fielded them a couple of times (and I won't be playing a game for the next month or so), I have to say I'm a bit perplexed by their load-out options.

I have two weaponless and armless Vet unit with drop pods, and I'm quite unsure as to what bit I should be ordering for weapons... 5 vet squad of 3xCombi-melta, 1xMelta, 1x Multi-melta?

Played against someones raven wing with the new shroud skimmer and the slavo banner. They conceded on turn 2. S4 salvo is awesome but necrons dont really mind it or any mech build for that matter.

Ravenwing will have issues with fliers. Actually I think dark angels in general are gonna struggle against enemy fliers. Too many elite units that are built for specific purposes.

I was wondering about the fliers issue. I cringe at ML for the job they seem so exp. Is the fighter an option and will only one do?

No need to worry, for just one low payment you too can own a new aegis defense line with quad gun.

LOL yes they do seem to be the walmart special

How does everyone feel about Chaplains & Interrogator-Chaplains?

It seems most likely that your close-combat based units will have fearless already (either on their own or being attached to an Inner Circle character). Although Hatred is cool is it worth using a HQ slot that could go to a libby (assuming you are running azrael/belial/sammel for the other slot)?

canadianguy wrote:
I was wondering about the fliers issue. I cringe at ML for the job they seem so exp. Is the fighter an option and will only one do?

Not worry, thats why you buy a six pack o' guard. Fight flyers with better flyers. Remember Raven Wing don't drink and drive.