That's what you are bound to get though, when so many of the deathstars rely on psychic powers to survive/inflict maximum damage. A lot more swing than there otherwise would be
Yeah, these deathstars have the potential to cripple with their alpha-strikes, especially when they can strike you when you are at your weakest (i.e. before you get a chance to use defensive powers or when your powers get negated).
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Well, Fortune is literally the only thing keeping the Seer Council useful/relevant.
Without it, they're terribad.
+1
As much as I hate it when people call out flukes.... this was a fluke. I don't think the Deldar Council has a great chance against draigowing, but it shouldn't be a one sided route like this. Coteaz getting off misfortune through warding and a 4+ DtW on top of a 5" assault move by the council is a very lopsided turn of dice. Like I said, I don't expect them to win this fight handily, but that wasn't even a fight.
As far as Tau go, I think if Deldar get in combat they have a very good chance of winning. Baron's I 7 (after enhance) vs Farsights I5 means Tau can't rely on H&R. One turn of lost shooting is going to hurt them bad. Against Pinkstar.....turbo boost around and let RoW kill the entire army. Assuming they don't just ignore it and murder the entire council in one turn of shooting
As to the other deathstars: who cares? Deldar or GTFO.
Don't worry. Deldar wll get a chance at redemption.
With regards to H&R, it isn't an initiative roll-off between the 2 units, I don't think. Rather, it is just an Initiative test for the unit. Thus, both units will only fail if they roll a 6.
As for the other deathstars, everyone's going to have a favorite and everyone's going to be rooting for their own deathstar. Frankly, I don't care too much for eldar, though it brings joy to my very core to see them crushed like they did against Draigowing. j.k.!
Theorius wrote: the barons iniative has nothing to do with hit and run, the test is based on their iniative, going to go double check....
tau should be able to get two turns of shooting before assault (one at max range and one at rapid fire) then they hit and run out and shoot em again!
Honestly, Tau's going to only have 1 turn of shooting. Eldar has enough speed that they can even deploy outside of the threat range of Tau (i.e. 42") and still hit them on T2. Or they could hide behind LOS-blocking terrain.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Well, Fortune is literally the only thing keeping the Seer Council useful/relevant.
Without it, they're terribad.
+1
As much as I hate it when people call out flukes.... this was a fluke. I don't think the Deldar Council has a great chance against draigowing, but it shouldn't be a one sided route like this. Coteaz getting off misfortune through warding and a 4+ DtW on top of a 5" assault move by the council is a very lopsided turn of dice. Like I said, I don't expect them to win this fight handily, but that wasn't even a fight.
As far as Tau go, I think if Deldar get in combat they have a very good chance of winning. Baron's I 7 (after enhance) vs Farsights I5 means Tau can't rely on H&R. One turn of lost shooting is going to hurt them bad. Against Pinkstar.....turbo boost around and let RoW kill the entire army. Assuming they don't just ignore it and murder the entire council in one turn of shooting
As to the other deathstars: who cares? Deldar or GTFO.
the barons iniative has nothing to do with hit and run, the test is based on their iniative, going to go double check....
tau should be able to get two turns of shooting before assault (one at max range and one at rapid fire) then they hit and run out and shoot em again!
Sure enough. Not sure where I was thinking it was a roll off. Old rule set perhaps?
Either way I think Deldar are really the only deathstar here with the speed to get into combat with the tau, where they are weakest. That's going to be the only way the tau get taken down.
Red Corsair wrote: @jy2- the problem with quantifying DS at an arbitrary number like 1000 pts and saying that cheaper DS need to pick up the slack really undermines what a true DS is. I mean think about it, if a DE beast pack or a pinkstar can be valid and deadly at under 700 points, then in some regards they are a more efficient and useful DS. By making an unnaturally high ceiling for some races you completely negate what makes some armies DS awesome.
Now that said, I just think that the efficiency factor needs to be raised but I don't think that you can mitigate it while having an true unbiased showdown. Either you set the cost to high for some races or too low for others. I just wanted to point this factor out.
I do think it would be nice to maybe in the post game thoughts or maybe bracketed int the reports (even later on when your done) to add in the statistical mean so players can see where luck skewed results.
Also good job with the write ups and thanks for the entertainment! My suggestions are only intended to improve your data!
No worries, and thanks for your input.
I kind of look at it as there are "weight classes" for the various deathstars. It is neither a true pure deathstar vs deathstar battle nor is it a David deathstar vs Goliath deathstar (i.e. true deathstar vs mini-star). Rather, it is the largest deathstar you can fit under a "weight class" with some "padding" to get it up to that weight class. In this case, we are looking at the "heavyweight" deathstars at 1K. Smaller deathstars may be more efficient in some cases, but I don't feel it is truly fair to pit a 700-800pt deathstar against a 1K one. Probably 9 out of 10 battles will favor the more massive deathstar due to the extra offense and resiliency you can pack into it....it just becomes much too predictable.
So for the purposes of my battles, I chose to have a points restriction/ceiling as a controlling factor. However, if anyone else would prefer to run a deathstar battle with no points restrictions and based purely on just the deathstar itself, then they are welcome to do their own series of battles. Who knows, it may even make for some more interesting matchups and some epic underdog victories, especially if a 500-pt mini-star can upset a 1K heavyweight deathstar.
It's hard to figure out a statiscal mean for these deahstars. There are just so many variables to take into consideration. My head would probably explode from even attempting to try these calculations. I just go the simple route by using a round-robbin tournament format so that readers can get a glimpse of each specific matchup. These series of battle reports in no means are a definitive proclamation of who is the best. Rather, it gives the readers a glimpse of how each death can potentially perform against another heavyweight deathstar. Honestly, if I wanted a more accurate gauge of how the deathstars would perform, I'd probably have to run each of these battles a hundred times each....and that still may not be enough.
krazykishere wrote: The greatest vacuum deathstar isn't here. The nob biker deathstar.
Oh, you will see them in action. I've already got a couple of Bonus Deathmatches against the nob bikers.
Blaggard wrote: Could try some abhuman fun:
Azreal, Ezekial, Yarrick, 10* Ogryns
Get Mind Worm and 2 rolls on Divination, hope for something useful & Prescience. Put Yarrick up front to re-roll successful wounds on majority T5. LOS to either the guys with 2+ or 4++ on the W3 ogryns.
Very slow and HQ heavy but should do something if they get into range.
Sorry, but I don't think this deathstar is viable.
It lacks mobility and I am dubious of its offensive capabilities against 2+ save models or models with re-rollable saves.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: They're still very strong in Relic missions and used to be stronger with the old wound allocation rules, since you could take 10-12 wounds and not lose a single model.
I'm not sure what Coteaz brings to the table? My list would be GM, Psychotroke, Psycannon, Allied OM Inq, Psycannon and lvl 1 Prescience, and 10x Pal with 4 Psycannon and BB.
They're not the strongest of the Deathstars any more though.
I was actually considering that unit as well. 6 psycannons in the unit....hell yeah!!! However, I was not willing to give up Coteaz in order to do so. Coteaz is such a huge force-multiplier with 2 psychic powers. With Precognition, Misfortune or Perfect Timing, he makes the paladins just so much better (BTW, precognition is the only way they can get re-rollable 2+ saves in the army). Being a Lvl 2 psyker means he has a better chance to Deny some psychic powers. His hammer could also prove useful in battle and finally, I've Been Expecting could be a game changer. The only guy I would probably swap out Coteaz for is a Lvl 2/3 GK librarian and only if we are talking about super-heavyweight deathstars (i.e. deathstars over 1K).
Looking forward to it! I forgot to bring the camera to record my Deathstar games sadly. I just realise the Farsight bomb is completely reliant on cover saves, as they don't have any Invulns on their suits.
The Scout move has won me so many games by catching opponents completely off guard. If I was playing Tau I'd deploy well at the back to limit the Ravenwing threat range on turn one. (which, granted, is still enormous).
Endurance is huge for RW as the FNP and It Will Not Die on 3 characters (one with 4 wounds) is very strong, also considering the other units don't have Toughness reduction tech other than Enfeeble. Relentless also allows Azrael to rapid fire his Blinding combi-plasma and still assault.
If I'd grade the Ravenstar it would be
Mobility: A-
Not quite as fast as the Seer Council, but still extremely mobile with 12" scout and 24" turboboost range. Also all bike models ignore terrain and dangerous terrain tests with Skilled Rider.
Shooting: A-
Second shootiest Deathstar after the Farsight bomb, but with more tricks. Rad Grenades reduce Toughness by 1, and Stasis can reduce your Initiative by one for I2-3 Blind tests.
Can put out up to 18 twin-linked Plasma shots, with Blind. Can get ignores cover from Diviniation. Can get Null Zone from Sevrin Loth.
Assault: A+
Probably the strongest assault Deathstar in the list, possibly even stronger than the Bloodcrushers. Blind/ Invisibility means most enemies will be fighting them at WS1, and at -1 WS -1 Initiative. Azrael taking the Furious Charge trait means the Black Knights put out 40 Str 6 Rending attacks with 7-10 Str 4 Hammer of Wrath; Azrael puts out 6 Str 7 ap 3 I5 attacks, Loth puts out 6-9 Str 5-9 Ap 2 attacks with Warp Speed and Iron Arm, and Librarian puts out 4 Str 7 Ap 3 Blind attacks on the charge. Lib can get Prescience for re-rolls. Most importantly, Hit and run at I5 means they can disengage, shoot, and charge you again.
Defense: B+
Hugely dependent on cover saves, especially rolling Invisibility for a 2+ cover save. Otherwise, 3+ with 4++ at T5 and 5+ Feel No Pain. Azrael can tank in front with a 2+, 4++ and Sevrin Loth can also tank with a 2++.
No easy access to rerolls. Probably second most squishy Deathstar after the Palstar.
Psychic: A-
Sevrin allows access to all the powers of a single discipline, or Rulebook SM powers, so the element of chance is much reduced. May pick and choose powers to suit situation: Endurance, Enfeeble and Haemorrage during the shooting turns, Warp Speed, Iron Arm and 2++ during assault, or GoI for mobility. ML3 for 5+/4+ DTW.
The only problem with the Ravenstar is that I would never field it in a normal game, because MSU Black Knights is far more effective and nobody plays with Deathstars in my meta anyway.
Thanks for the Analysis. I'll make sure to include it when I do my battle report between the Ravenstar vs the Farsight Bomb.
Theorius wrote: how does azrael join a biker squad and get to turbo boost 24", i have the book and I dont see where he gets a bike?
i
He can't turbo-boost and doesn't have a bike. Rather, he just walks along at a leisurely 6" pace. The bikes can still turbo, they just need to daisychain themselves with Azrael to keep him in coherency with the unit. It's not a perfect situation but it is still doable.
skyfi wrote: Also nobody has mentioned what seems to be an ork counter to the tau deathstars cover.. Flashgits!
10 flash gits with every single upgrade, painboy, badruk etc = 595 points.. something like 20 BS2 ignore cover shots with D6-1 Ap and D6+1 Str or some shennanigans.. 27 wounds with both bosses, 31 counting the hull points of wagon. AV14/12/10 with 19" max move per turn... Could very well just end up without a ride, stuck in terrain, out of range and being gunned down.. but IF they got close enough to let off a round of shooting or 2, may make a dent in tau/eldar deathstars
add on ghazgull brings it to 820, then a wagon (riggers, ram, 2 shootas. armor plates might be req'd too.) to 930~
a stock megaboss with BP/cybork is 115 points. Each of the shootier/blasta/mo dakka upgrades are 40 points each (50 if painboy and badrukk have to pay for them too.. which I didn't include costs of)...
megabosses kill ability to run, and overwatch but if you think you're going to get charged on gits, suppose could break both ghazgul and megaboss out of group... (and use them to absorb overwatch for gits if need be)
Hmmm....interesting - a deathstar that may be even more random than the Pinkstar!
Doubt they will win much. Then again, the randomness of the army may surprise you and make for a great upset.
This is a great idea actually! Didn't consider it. You could even place Loth in front with this method to tank all the plasma with 2++. and still be in range to unleash your Perfect Timing/ Rad Grendade/ I-1 Blind/ Rapid Fire Plasma, and Objuration Mechanicum/Vortex of Doom is quite good against the Tau. Losing Enfeeble isn't that bad against Tau, but losing Endurance might be huge though. I was planning to combine it to force a -2T Haemorrage test on the Farsight Bomb (Focused Witchfire means you can pick out that pesky Command systems suit)....
I would only recommend going for GoI against the Tau since there is no way you will get your cover saves. At least for other psychic deathstars they have to get the right psychic power and successfully cast it. Focused witchfire might help but you still have to roll that 5 and under on the psychic test to pick that crisis suit out... not exactly reliable but worth a shot.
Another interesting combination, though it may be for naught if Tau moves into area terrain. I must say, the Ravenstar does have a lot of "tricks".
MarkyMark wrote: As above, the rule is written for only bikers in the unit, it doesnt mention non biker models in the unit, RAW it plays like Christopher says it does, only problem would be if he wanted to run loth and azreal as the unit can only move the d6 inches.
ok.....but then what is the point of turbo boosting 6"? you arent getting any cover saves vs the farsight deathstar......
furthermore moving 6" a turn will never get you into combat with the farsight bomb.
In 6th, there is no longer the movement restrictions that they used to have in 5th. Back in 5th, you were limited by the slowest model in the unit in the Movement phase. This is no longer necessarily the case. So if you have an infantry model in a unit of bikers, the infantry can only move 6" whereas the bikers can still move 12". They just need to maintain coherency with the infantry model or he will no longer be a member of the unit.
Then in the Shooting phase, the bikers can still turbo-boost 12" (or 24-36" for jetbikes) even though the infantry cannot. This time, the bikers have to maintain coherency with the infantry model because they cannot leave him behind in the Shooting phase (that can only be done in the Movement phase).
You would normally turbo-boost to get closer to the enemy for assault or to get into shooting range. In this case, the turbo-boost cover is moot because the unit is already gettting 4++ from Azrael (unless you've also got Stealth or Shrouded going on to help boost up cover saves).
MarkyMark wrote: As above, the rule is written for only bikers in the unit, it doesnt mention non biker models in the unit, RAW it plays like Christopher says it does, only problem would be if he wanted to run loth and azreal as the unit can only move the d6 inches.
ok.....but then what is the point of turbo boosting 6"? you arent getting any cover saves vs the farsight deathstar......
furthermore moving 6" a turn will never get you into combat with the farsight bomb.
you don't run the infantry, they stay put in shooting phase and bikes turbo boost but the back ones lag behind to keep the infantry in coherency.
a slingshot of sorts
Correct. Turbo-boosting is mainly to give you more "reach".
Thanks jy2 I totally missed it. It's is such a great thread, sometimes to get to the reports I skip some of te comments...I think you're right I guess I was just grasping at straws.
Tyranids are definitely a synergistic army and can't rely on a single unit to pull all the weight. Thanks for the response!
No worries and you're welcome.
Yeah, tyranids definitely function better as a whole (army) than in parts (isolated deathstar).
Of course, if it were an "Arena of Death" style Deathstar tournament, where each unit begins in CC, no one has the charge advantage, etc., the Swarmlord, TG + Prime unit is one of the best.
Yeah, it'll be much different in such an environment where the tyranid deathstars are already in battle. Swarmy is just one of the best in combat.
SBG wrote: I have always liked a 3 pack of Carnifexes with TL devourers, with a pair of Primes armed with deathspitters, whips and swords. Give everything adrenal glands and toxin sacs, and LOS to your heart's content. Points should be in the 800 to 850 range, a little more if bioplasma is taken.
What's that, 36 tl s6 shots, 6 s5 bs4 shots, two instant death ignores armour high initiative cc weapons, 3 I10 s9 HOW hits, and 15 S10 (on the charge) ap2 low initiative hits.
I think it'd be pretty effective, but rerollable saves might still beat it. It's quite the beatstick, if a bit slow.
A semi-viable deathstar with some shooting, some assault capabilities and some resiliency. However, it isn't great in any and will be a mediocre deathstar at best. This deathstar just cannot handle any of the true deathstars on my list.
bennyboy6189 wrote: Loving all the battle reports, but i feel the original draigo list was better as you need the tank in the front to survive and also draigo may have stood a chance vs the LOC.
This would be my take on the draigo deathstar as its main weakness is ap2 spam like plasma and also you still get the prescience, also the warding staves thrown in for more survivability.
Interesting Draigowing build. I've never even considered the plasma syphon! It may actually do better in these series of battles, though I still prefer the shooty paladinstar as a better TAC deathstar build.
portugus wrote: I love these reports, I would really like to see an IG Deathstar when you get the time. Looking forward to seeing Eldar die!
Got any list in mind? I'm hard pressed to find an IG deathstar army that I truly like. They just don't do deathstars well IMO and I can't really think up one that will do well against any of the deathstars here on my list.
Salacious Greed wrote: First: Let me say, great games so far, been interesting to see them play out.
Second: A few questions though on your methodology.
1. You keep pointing out that instead of DeathStars, some people are bringing up Army lists, which I agree. But in your GK vs PinkStar, you didn't really run the PinkStar as a Star. If it was a DS, wouldn't the LOC have to be IN the DS, otherwise you're running a mini-army by not having it as part of the Star. Just trying to parse what we effectively consider a DS, and what's not.
2. While this is a great thread, and you are producing great matchups, you're really only providing one-offs for us (the readers), and not really showing which DS is better. It would be much more boring, but I think to show which DS is statistically the best, you'd have to approximate average rolls (3.5 for 1d6[being a 3 or 4 on a rotating basis], a 7 for 2d6, 10.5 for 3d6, etc.). You're really incorporating the luck factor into these matchups, which you've pointed out multiple times to likely determining the winner. Also, I think knowledge of using the DS and generalship are also in play here, and thus not giving a true measure of the actual DS.
I'm just asking, as I see so many people throwing so many hats into the ring, and want to know where the majority stands. Thanks! Great stuff as always JY2.
This idea was borne from using the pinkstar/horrorbomb. The LoC was added in to enable the use of more expensive deathstars.
2. Luck is a factor in all games, if you want to mathhammer averages in anyone can do that, it doesnt need a entry in bat reps (more tactics). There is no acutal measurement of a deathstar as you pointed out it is down to the general and to the opponent on how he counters any deathstar, that is a impossible to answer question and something that cannot be attained in a bat rep. This isnt (I think, excuse for me for putting words in your mouth Jy2) a test to see make each deathstar a paper rock scissors (i,e Tau ALWAYS beats paladins, Pinkstar Always beats palandins etc) it is a interesting read up on Jy2's tactics and experince of deathstars and other peoples.
Bat Reps really is not the place for math hammer as there are real life people rolling dice here.
And that too!
Lt. Coldfire wrote: Some math hammer would be cool, but I think jy2 already has his work cut out for him by playing all these games and writing up the battle reports. Asking for some math hammer on top of all that is a bit demanding.
That's where I stand
Right. While sometimes I do do some mathhammer on occasion, those are usually for isolated events (i.e. perhaps for 1 turn of shooting or assault). To mathhammer out a complete battle and also account for all the variables is too prodigious an undertaking, especially when I have to play the many battles in this thread and write them up as well. I'm dedicated, but not that dedicated.
Another interesting combination, though it may be for naught if Tau moves into area terrain. I must say, the Ravenstar does have a lot of "tricks".
Potentially having Misfortune or Perfect timing and at the very least you have the Auspex to knock the cover save down to no better than a 3++... lots of tricks!
Hmm, that's exactly what happened in my Ravenstar vs Pinkstar match. Winged DP strayed too far in front, got grounded and charged, and then turbo-boosted in to wipe out the Daemons in close combat.
I must say you were taking helluva lot of perils though. like what 6-7?
Once the Pinkstar in CC, against an opponent with hit and run, they're pretty much boned.
Also, did you roll the Blue horror effect? I find people tend to forget (that and the LoC's staff effect.)
This is the Bonus Mystery Deathmatch (and the 4th game) that we played on that day.
Bonus Deathmatch #3
1000 Rematch - Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Seer Council Deldar Part II
Because the first matchup between the 2 (battle report on p. 6) happened so quickly, I decided to give Grant a chance for redemption. He demanded a rematch and I was happy to go kick some more eldar a$$ again....I mean, to oblige.
This is the Bonus Mystery Deathmatch (and the 4th game) that we played on that day.
Bonus Deathmatch #3
1000 Rematch - Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Seer Council Deldar Part II
Because the first matchup between the 2 (battle report on p. 6) happened so quickly, I decided to give Grant a chance for redemption. He demanded a rematch and I was happy to go kick some more eldar a$$ again....I mean, to oblige.
Yikes! Just goes to show how poorly Eldar operate without their psychic powers. At this point, I'm not even certain I would consider them a deathstar anymore - to me, it seems, a deathstar shouldn't be so heavily reliant on psychic powers to assure victory.
Hey, you know what deathstar doesn't need psychic powers to function well? Nob Bikers.....
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Yikes! Just goes to show how poorly Eldar operate without their psychic powers. At this point, I'm not even certain I would consider them a deathstar anymore - to me, it seems, a deathstar shouldn't be so heavily reliant on psychic powers to assure victory.
Hey, you know what deathstar doesn't need psychic powers to function well? Nob Bikers.....
Eldar basically need to go first and have the right powers while their opponents don't... that's a lot to hope for!
Btw, what a sad affair the codexes have become relative to fluff. The so called deamon "hunters" got massacred by deamons not even standing a chance while the eldar who are afraid of deamons slaughter them like there is no tomorrow.
Maybe have a rematch of the deamon "hunters" and deamons as well?
Ok... your Deldar player needs to learn to use deployment to his advantage. With Eldar's speed there is no need to deploy them as close as possible to the Grey Knights. And taking Telekinisis was just a horrible horrible idea...
Btw, what a sad affair the codexes have become relative to fluff. The so called deamon "hunters" got massacred by deamons not even standing a chance while the eldar who are afraid of deamons slaughter them like there is no tomorrow.
Maybe have a rematch of the deamon "hunters" and deamons as well?
That is pretty amusing. Deamons really do have all the right tools to deal with Grey Knights. GKS do have warp quake, but now that you're not required to DS it makes Deamons/GK match up much more favorable to the Deamons.
lambsandlions wrote: Could you please post links to each of the matches on the first post. It has become very hard to figure out where the matches and bonus matches are.
Sure!
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Yikes! Just goes to show how poorly Eldar operate without their psychic powers. At this point, I'm not even certain I would consider them a deathstar anymore - to me, it seems, a deathstar shouldn't be so heavily reliant on psychic powers to assure victory.
Hey, you know what deathstar doesn't need psychic powers to function well? Nob Bikers.....
Yeah. It's interesting how Eldar is even more reliant on psychic powers than the psychic-heavy Pinkstar.
And while nob bikers aren't reliant on psychic powers, they sure are vulnerable to them.
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Yikes! Just goes to show how poorly Eldar operate without their psychic powers. At this point, I'm not even certain I would consider them a deathstar anymore - to me, it seems, a deathstar shouldn't be so heavily reliant on psychic powers to assure victory.
Hey, you know what deathstar doesn't need psychic powers to function well? Nob Bikers.....
Eldar basically need to go first and have the right powers while their opponents don't... that's a lot to hope for!
They don't necessarily have to go first as they can always deploy outside of the opponent's threat range or behind LOS-blocking terrain. However, it just hurts when you get caught with your pants down (i.e. initiative stolen).
skyfi wrote: stinkin pointy ears had it comin, twice.
Btw, what a sad affair the codexes have become relative to fluff. The so called deamon "hunters" got massacred by deamons not even standing a chance while the eldar who are afraid of deamons slaughter them like there is no tomorrow.
Maybe have a rematch of the deamon "hunters" and deamons as well?
Perhaps. There's a Pinkstar vs Farsight rematch that I am planning on and now Paladinstar vs the Pinkstar.
But first, I've got some batreps to put up before doing anymore rematches.
djones520 wrote: Ok... your Deldar player needs to learn to use deployment to his advantage. With Eldar's speed there is no need to deploy them as close as possible to the Grey Knights. And taking Telekinisis was just a horrible horrible idea...
It was one of those "what the hell just happened" moments. My opponent just did not plan on or anticipate me seizing the initiative. But if we were to play again, I'm sure he will learn from this game. You can say he was shocked with such disbelief this game that he could only laugh.
Btw, what a sad affair the codexes have become relative to fluff. The so called deamon "hunters" got massacred by deamons not even standing a chance while the eldar who are afraid of deamons slaughter them like there is no tomorrow.
Maybe have a rematch of the deamon "hunters" and deamons as well?
That is pretty amusing. Deamons really do have all the right tools to deal with Grey Knights. GKS do have warp quake, but now that you're not required to DS it makes Deamons/GK match up much more favorable to the Deamons.
Agreed. The grey knights aren't the horrible matchup that they used to be for daemons. Currently, daemons can IMO hold their own against the knights, even Draigowing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Hmm, that's exactly what happened in my Ravenstar vs Pinkstar match. Winged DP strayed too far in front, got grounded and charged, and then turbo-boosted in to wipe out the Daemons in close combat.
I must say you were taking helluva lot of perils though. like what 6-7?
Once the Pinkstar in CC, against an opponent with hit and run, they're pretty much boned.
Also, did you roll the Blue horror effect? I find people tend to forget (that and the LoC's staff effect.)
Yeah, that was a lot of perils. That was also to be expected. What I didn't expect was for eldar to make so many saves. He should have probably lost about 4 guys to horror shooting (I did 30+ wounds) but instead lost only 2. Not that the Pinkstar cold win this matchup after losing their Warlord, but it might have been a closer game.
Also, what really hurt was Precision Shots/Strikes. Since each and every Warlock is a character, he could allocate his shots and assault against my Heralds.
Agreed. The grey knights aren't the horrible matchup that they used to be for daemons. Currently, daemons can IMO hold their own against the knights, even Draigowing.
That´s an understatement. Deamons massacre GKs like they would be chaos terminators vs grots.
As for eventual rematches I strongly suggest keeping to more average terrain which is 5+ cover with some 4+ ruins sprinkled in and not humongous LOS blocking shoe boxes. That´s just crapping up the balance far to much.
djn wrote: Good to see the paladins getting some wins in. Shouldn't the GM be able to auto activate his force weapon with the Banner in the warboss challenge?
I don't believe so. I admit that the rules are a little murky, but this is how I think it works. The rules for the Banner says that all models in the unit get +1A. However, for the force activation part, it just says unit and not all models in the unit. Then if you look at the rules for Nemesis Force Weapons, it says that IC's need to activate their force weapons independent of the "unit". So there is some ambiguity there, however, IMO there is nothing in the Brotherhood Banner that overrides how a Nemesis Force Weapon works. In any case, I usually prefer to go for the more conservative intepretation, or the intepretation that gives the unit the least advantage (though that is not always the case).
djn wrote: Good to see the paladins getting some wins in. Shouldn't the GM be able to auto activate his force weapon with the Banner in the warboss challenge?
I don't believe so. I admit that the rules are a little murky, but this is how I think it works. The rules for the Banner says that all models in the unit get +1A. However, for the force activation part, it just says unit and not all models in the unit. Then if you look at the rules for Nemesis Force Weapons, it says that IC's need to activate their force weapons independent of the "unit". So there is some ambiguity there, however, IMO there is nothing in the Brotherhood Banner that overrides how a Nemesis Force Weapon works. In any case, I usually prefer to go for the more conservative intepretation, or the intepretation that gives the unit the least advantage (though that is not always the case).
I've just read that in the GK codex. The language used is consistent regarding the activation of nemesis force weapons and the banner so I think your interpretation is correct and I've been playing it wrong for some time!
I'm not sure you played those combat rounds correctly - the nobs would still get their 3" pile in to attempt to swing, and if that wasn't enough then (and only then) do you skip all the inits.
The way it reads is you killed off the models in B2B and then skipped all inits. Sorry if I'm misreading.
Also, I'm guessing the bikes Hammer of wrath did nothing?
rigeld2 wrote: I'm not sure you played those combat rounds correctly - the nobs would still get their 3" pile in to attempt to swing, and if that wasn't enough then (and only then) do you skip all the inits.
The way it reads is you killed off the models in B2B and then skipped all inits. Sorry if I'm misreading.
Also, I'm guessing the bikes Hammer of wrath did nothing?
This is what I was wondering too.
Usually you kill everyone in base to base with knights, then the orks pile in at I3 for big choppas (if any alive, and swing), then the klaw nobs would pile in at i1 and swing (probably through a 2" bubble generated by the BC nobs in b2b). The nobs should of been positioned so the big choppas all in front taking the wounds first and PK's get to swing... It's highly important for us orks with us having a mob of 30 (relatively useless boys vs. an av12/13 dreadnought aside from tarpit) when we have a single model of the 30 capable of damaging the bugger..
I'll reiterate rigeld's sentiment for myself, sorry if I misread or haven't had my coffee (or enough)yet this morning.
Ah, you forget that I killed the next 2 bikers after his warboss from Overwatch:
The rest of his guys were really far away and my opponent just barely made the charge. My halberds piled into his warboss, who was the only model they could base. After killing his warboss, even with the 3" pile-in move from both deathstars, we couldn't get into base contact.
The photo above is actually after Initiative pile-in and end of combat pile-in. Only then did our guys make it into base with each other.
Agreed. The grey knights aren't the horrible matchup that they used to be for daemons. Currently, daemons can IMO hold their own against the knights, even Draigowing.
That´s an understatement. Deamons massacre GKs like they would be chaos terminators vs grots.
As for eventual rematches I strongly suggest keeping to more average terrain which is 5+ cover with some 4+ ruins sprinkled in and not humongous LOS blocking shoe boxes. That´s just crapping up the balance far to much.
I actually had the rematch last night. That's another BR I need to add to the queue.
rigeld2 wrote: Having zero LoS blocking terrain is just as bad, however.
Yeah, you do need some LOS-blocking terrain in order to make the contests fair. Otherwise, it becomes a turkey-shoot for the more shooty deathstars, especially against the slower armies.
jy2 wrote: The photo above is actually after Initiative pile-in and end of combat pile-in. Only then did our guys make it into base with each other.
This is what I missed. Thanks for clarifying.
But didn't it happen twice in the same combat?
jy2 wrote:Force weapons then kill 4 nobs. The rest of his guys cannot fight because now there is no one in base with my paladins.
There's no way that after initiative pile-in and end-of-combat pile-in, then another initiative pile-in (so 9" total) none of those 5 bikers were in b2b.
didn't the GK kill all models in b2b, and after pile ins no unit was in b2b? gk moved up 3" so did bikers and no one in b2b so combat should end with models all consolidating d6" (dependent on the loser not failing morale and running)?
leavin it ork T4, like 3" away... setup for 4 kombi skorcha shots and a re charge (potentially with a boss going in solo first to absorb over-watch)? (had they not ran off like wussies)
or am I missing the rules? been out of 40k a min.
ref pages #
23 left side torward bottom right above the angel with the trumpet
if the assault ended on Gk t3 (per page 23 because models could not get b2b with eachother), and orks didn't fail LD6, they should be free to move in position and light GK up, re charge etc. right? but failed LD6 with a re roll I presume. (why you need a stock non-character-that-will-be-killed-in-a-challenge-nob-who-just-hangs-out-and-PK's-people-for-LD
This photo was actually taken after the nob bikers piled in. Keep in mind that each biker base is about 2.5-3" long.
My paladins pile-in first and kill 4 nob bikers. The rear nob bikers then pile-in 3" and that was as far as they could get (pictured above). Since there is no one in base except the warboss, who was in a challenge (and thus couldn't fight against the unit because he was involved in the challenge), basically combat was over and orks had to take their Morale test, which they failed (needed snake-eyes to pass).
Oh, dark harlestar Vs. bad company would be fun. Can we see that, two CC only units would be a really fun match. + We want to see Vect plough through the entire unit
Ahha! I got confused by the proxy of a normal warboss for a bikerboss - the 40mm base guy was killed off earlier my brain processed that as the only warboss.
Thanks jy2 - sorry if you thought I was being a pain.
Each Star should be done once with each player going first. The first turn is going to be very important to almost every Star(except mebbe Farsight. :-) ).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm assuming it isn't bias as the OP is Grey Knights and he evidently despises the sheer idea of the Deldar Star. :-P
If Deldar can beat Tau, they will then be tied for 1st, in which case they would need to play off against each other once again. Otherwise, Tau will come out undefeated and the three 1-2 deathstars will be ranked by Victory Points (when the record is tied).
Coming up later today, the final game of the tournament:
Game #6 - 1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau vs Seer Council Deldar
jy2 wrote: If Deldar can beat Tau, they will then be tied for 1st, in which case they would need to play off against each other once again. Otherwise, Tau will come out undefeated and the three 1-2 deathstars will be ranked by Victory Points (when the record is tied).
Coming up later today, the final game of the tournament:
I was quite surprised how easily the Grey Knight Deathstar sliced through the Nobz Bikers. Nobz are no match against Force Weapons. I wish there were more eternal warrior models in the Orks' arsenal.
SabrX wrote: I was quite surprised how easily the Grey Knight Deathstar sliced through the Nobz Bikers. Nobz are no match against Force Weapons. I wish there were more eternal warrior models in the Orks' arsenal.
That's why I'd shoot the pallys rather than engage them head on....
It's all about the volume of shots... you only need to be 18"... sure, the nobz will get shot at too... but a 4+ cover and 5+ FNP are good odds.
2+ re-rollable cover save... They can all benefit from the neurochip and ignore cover with their shooting. Might trade plasma for missles for the sake of firing and charging still.
Wow, doom AND misfortune is horrible, coupled with prescience and fortune for the attacking squad is pretty darn tasty as well!. Eldar really can hold their own with a good player using a seer council
Think that would be a good match-up. If played right the death company could limit the shooting of the pinkstar and try to indulge in some FnP boost!
If I have the time, I might try out that match-up.
But I can tell you right now that it will be a massacre by daemons. Their shooting is just too strong and the Angels really have no answer for a buffed-up LoC. Stay away and BA will get shot up by the Pinkstar. Get up close and they will get assaulted by the LoC. Now if the Angels get lucky and daemons get a bunch of bad breaks, BA might be able to squeak one by. Otherwise, they will be a huge underdog.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Oh, dark harlestar Vs. bad company would be fun. Can we see that, two CC only units would be a really fun match. + We want to see Vect plough through the entire unit
I would like to try out the Dark Harliestar, but one of the reasons why I haven't done so yet is because I don't own any Eldar models. So I can wait until I go up against a Dark Harliestar player (Frankie from Frontline Gaming) or I can proxy the units. Maybe....
rigeld2 wrote: Ahha! I got confused by the proxy of a normal warboss for a bikerboss - the 40mm base guy was killed off earlier my brain processed that as the only warboss.
Thanks jy2 - sorry if you thought I was being a pain.
I've got no problems with you guys asking questions. Sometimes, pictures can be misleading because they don't tell the whole story. I have no problems clarifying potentially confusing situations.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: Each Star should be done once with each player going first. The first turn is going to be very important to almost every Star(except mebbe Farsight. :-) ).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm assuming it isn't bias as the OP is Grey Knights and he evidently despises the sheer idea of the Deldar Star. :-P
IMO, a true deathstar shouldn't care whether they go first or second. If they do, then they aren't a very good deathstar. All the deathstars in my list are designed to be able to survive an enemy alpha-strike, if not with its resiliency then with deployment and tactics.
I admit that I am biased against the space elves because they've always been a bane to almost every army I play. Of course my armies - daemons, tyranids, grey knights, space wolves - all tend to be psychic-heavy with the exception of Necrons and Chaos Space Marines. However, as much as I am biased, I also acknowledge that the space elves can be very good, especially when allied with their dark brethen. I don't really look forwards to fighting eldar because they always give my armies such a tought fight.
Same goes with Tau, who always give my armies a lot of problems as well.
SabrX wrote: I was quite surprised how easily the Grey Knight Deathstar sliced through the Nobz Bikers. Nobz are no match against Force Weapons. I wish there were more eternal warrior models in the Orks' arsenal.
I'm not. A souped-up paladinstar really outclasses nob bikers. Nob bikers won't be able to beat them one-on-one (at least not without a lot of luck). They need help from the rest of the ork army. Get a bunch of ork boys to tie up the paladins so that the nobs can go around killing everything else but the paladins. That's how orks will beat Draigowing.
SabrX wrote: I was quite surprised how easily the Grey Knight Deathstar sliced through the Nobz Bikers. Nobz are no match against Force Weapons. I wish there were more eternal warrior models in the Orks' arsenal.
That's why I'd shoot the pallys rather than engage them head on....
It's all about the volume of shots... you only need to be 18"... sure, the nobz will get shot at too... but a 4+ cover and 5+ FNP are good odds.
That's a losing battle. Paladins will outshoot nob bikers any day of the week. You won't win that battle of attrition.
2+ re-rollable cover save... They can all benefit from the neurochip and ignore cover with their shooting. Might trade plasma for missles for the sake of firing and charging still.
Not bad, but not viable either. Sure they've got resiliency, but this unit has neither the mobility nor the volume-of-fire to deal with other true deathstars.
MarkyMark wrote: Wow, doom AND misfortune is horrible, coupled with prescience and fortune for the attacking squad is pretty darn tasty as well!. Eldar really can hold their own with a good player using a seer council
Yeah, those are basically the best power-combos that the seer council can get. They kill with with their volume-of-quality attacks. Re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound and the enemy needs to re-roll successful saves....that is one brutal combination.
That was a pretty nasty game 6. One thing I just noticed, why no Drone Controller for the Tau? 8 points to raise those 26 gun drone shots to BS3 seems like a great deal.
That game just wasn't meant to be (great eldar powers, great saves, Eldar got the first turn, etc). But I actually think you were underestimating Tau's mobility. I think Tau can avoid the Eldar for 2 full turns, on average. Deploy a little further back, so the Eldar are forced to conga-line a bit more. They have to stay 1" away, of course. Move 6" away. Average shooting should put down 4-5 warlocks (giving you another 3" or so). Jump back 10-11". They could easily start their turn 20" or further away.
Looking forward to the rematch. I still think Tau have the advantage. Thanks again for the reports!
That game just wasn't meant to be (great eldar powers, great saves, Eldar got the first turn, etc). But I actually think you were underestimating Tau's mobility. I think Tau can avoid the Eldar for 2 full turns, on average.
Deploy a little further back, so the Eldar are forced to conga-line a bit more. They have to stay 1" away, of course. Move 6" away. Average shooting should put down 4-5 warlocks (giving you another 3" or so). Jump back 10-11". They could easily start their turn 20" or further away.
Looking forward to the rematch. I still think Tau have the advantage. Thanks again for the reports!
I have to agree, the Tau should be deploying as far back as possible, especially if they go second, as having space to retreat into doesn't seem like a factor at all. I think this matchup is entirely dependent on getting first turn, I think that without the defensive magics, the eldar will be hard pressed to survive the Tau's early firepower, and with it, the Tau can't put enough hurt out.
I have to say I didn't like the outcome of the Farsight Tau vs. the Jetseer council. One of the newest codexes doesn't have anything to defeat one of the oldest death stars in the game? I hope the rematch will end differently. I really want the Tau to put it to those cheap jet bikes. Also I don't think its fair when you get to pick your own powers without rolling for them like normal. Pretty much everything else seemed fair to me. Tau got nothing against inevitable close combat and psychic powers. Also did you try rolling for deny the witch?
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: I have to say I didn't like the outcome of the Farsight Tau vs. the Jetseer council. One of the newest codexes doesn't have anything to defeat one of the oldest death stars in the game? I hope the rematch will end differently. I really want the Tau to put it to those cheap jet bikes. Also I don't think its fair when you get to pick your own powers without rolling for them like normal. Pretty much everything else seemed fair to me. Tau got nothing against inevitable close combat and psychic powers. Also did you try rolling for deny the witch?
Trust me... Tau have PLENTY of thing that can deal with the council, just not with their established death star. For example... HYMP broadsides with drones... add in a commander with an MSS and a drone controller and you will see warlocks fall even with fortune.
Siphen wrote: That was a pretty nasty game 6. One thing I just noticed, why no Drone Controller for the Tau? 8 points to raise those 26 gun drone shots to BS3 seems like a great deal.
That game just wasn't meant to be (great eldar powers, great saves, Eldar got the first turn, etc). But I actually think you were underestimating Tau's mobility. I think Tau can avoid the Eldar for 2 full turns, on average.
Deploy a little further back, so the Eldar are forced to conga-line a bit more. They have to stay 1" away, of course. Move 6" away. Average shooting should put down 4-5 warlocks (giving you another 3" or so). Jump back 10-11". They could easily start their turn 20" or further away.
Looking forward to the rematch. I still think Tau have the advantage. Thanks again for the reports!
Don't have my dex with me, but can you control other suit's drones? I was under the impression that, unless you are in a unit of drones only, each bodyguard needs to get a DC in order to raise the BS of his drone. Maybe one for YMDC? I'll look it up after work.
I may just try that in the rematch. In the first game, he surrounded me and I felt that I couldn't really get away. The next game I will probably try to get away. If I am able to jump back far enough, I may just make his charge risky. With just an average jump (10.5"), I should be 17.5" away from him.
Of course I was expecting to kill at least 4 warlocks with average shooting....and my shooting was about average. It was just that he was saving like a boss.
That game just wasn't meant to be (great eldar powers, great saves, Eldar got the first turn, etc). But I actually think you were underestimating Tau's mobility. I think Tau can avoid the Eldar for 2 full turns, on average.
Deploy a little further back, so the Eldar are forced to conga-line a bit more. They have to stay 1" away, of course. Move 6" away. Average shooting should put down 4-5 warlocks (giving you another 3" or so). Jump back 10-11". They could easily start their turn 20" or further away.
Looking forward to the rematch. I still think Tau have the advantage. Thanks again for the reports!
I have to agree, the Tau should be deploying as far back as possible, especially if they go second, as having space to retreat into doesn't seem like a factor at all. I think this matchup is entirely dependent on getting first turn, I think that without the defensive magics, the eldar will be hard pressed to survive the Tau's early firepower, and with it, the Tau can't put enough hurt out.
Deploying as far back as possible doesn't really help IMO. 1st turn he could just set himself up just outside my shooting range and then it would be just like normal, only he probably would have tabled me on T3 instead of T2. Deploying back would have just delayed the inevitable. I'd rather have the room to fall back, and what I needed was for him to FAIL HIS DAMN SAVES!!!
SaganGree wrote: Just checking... against the Deldar, are you taking DtW against the Destructors?
No, I forgot.
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: I have to say I didn't like the outcome of the Farsight Tau vs. the Jetseer council. One of the newest codexes doesn't have anything to defeat one of the oldest death stars in the game? I hope the rematch will end differently. I really want the Tau to put it to those cheap jet bikes. Also I don't think its fair when you get to pick your own powers without rolling for them like normal. Pretty much everything else seemed fair to me. Tau got nothing against inevitable close combat and psychic powers. Also did you try rolling for deny the witch?
I think that is the weakness of the Farsight bomb. Whether new or old, they will have problems against highly mobile deathstars and the seer council is the fastest deathstar you will ever see. I still think they can win. However, after this game, I feel that they will be the underdog in our rematch.
BTW, in all my games, we always roll for the psychic powers. In this game, he just happened to get lucky with his rolls and got the powers he needed. Pretty much an ideal situation for him. Without Misfortune, I think it could have been a tougher fight for deldar, though Fortune is what saved their bacon.
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: I have to say I didn't like the outcome of the Farsight Tau vs. the Jetseer council. One of the newest codexes doesn't have anything to defeat one of the oldest death stars in the game? I hope the rematch will end differently. I really want the Tau to put it to those cheap jet bikes. Also I don't think its fair when you get to pick your own powers without rolling for them like normal. Pretty much everything else seemed fair to me. Tau got nothing against inevitable close combat and psychic powers. Also did you try rolling for deny the witch?
'One of the newest codexes doesn't have anything to defeat one of the oldest death stars in the game?'
'Tau got nothing against inevitable close combat and psychic powers.'
There, you've answered your own question.
Hmm interestingly enough I did think the seer council would do well vs the Tau, they just can't handle the speed, fortune and doom.
SabrX wrote: I was quite surprised how easily the Grey Knight Deathstar sliced through the Nobz Bikers. Nobz are no match against Force Weapons. I wish there were more eternal warrior models in the Orks' arsenal.
I'm not. A souped-up paladinstar really outclasses nob bikers. Nob bikers won't be able to beat them one-on-one (at least not without a lot of luck). They need help from the rest of the ork army. Get a bunch of ork boys to tie up the paladins so that the nobs can go around killing everything else but the paladins. That's how orks will beat Draigowing.
SabrX wrote: I was quite surprised how easily the Grey Knight Deathstar sliced through the Nobz Bikers. Nobz are no match against Force Weapons. I wish there were more eternal warrior models in the Orks' arsenal.
That's why I'd shoot the pallys rather than engage them head on....
It's all about the volume of shots... you only need to be 18"... sure, the nobz will get shot at too... but a 4+ cover and 5+ FNP are good odds.
That's a losing battle. Paladins will outshoot nob bikers any day of the week. You won't win that battle of attrition.
probably gakked up the quote but probably good enough...
I agree the bikers won't outgun the paladins but the bikers winning the match is highly dependant upon how they hit the paladins. Without taking into account luck, I think the best shot bikers have at downing the paladins is through a combination of volume of fire and S10 hits. I feel like if the bikers split up around that rock, and sent a lone boss with his kombi skorcha to the flank of paladins (more close than the nob bikers and positioned where a multi assault from paladins vs. bikers and solo boss is nigh impossible).. making paladins decide to shoot the large group of bikers and put a dent in them before they are surely shot/charged next turn (and hit with all those skorchas as the range will be alot closer with the biker boss providing cover)...... Think of that biker boss as darth vader in his tie fighter... or thats how i do at least. Make them elect a hon solo to go toe to toe with boss while rest of group shoots bikers. Boss may just win (probably not I'd say but odds are better than a straight up fight star vs star). Paladins could just all shoot/charge and kill the solo boss but then that leaves the remainder of the group unmolested to move in, drop 4-5 S5 flamers, rack up 10 hammer of wrath attacks, then get their normal combat..
If they don't kill the biker boss hes free to skorcha their keesters, and charge in and die gloriously to the overwatch, while letting his buddies scoot on in unscathed.... the nobs also really really need more bosspoles. people really skip out on them. you need a bosspole on a non-character as well for once all yours get challenged and beat down like dogs.
With you taking such an aggressive stance with paladins in this match jy2, I felt it would of left you vulnerable to him closing gap like that, splitting biker boss off, and probably would have been his best shot at pulling the W.
I think that one of the strengths of the nob bikers that was really not taken into account is the fact that there are 3 capable entities in that one unit that can use one another to catch overwatch, force decisions etc. I don't think for them to qualify as a deathstar they have to stay in the same "unit".. I think one boss breaking out of the unit to help with situations is a very key dynamic capability, not just due to their mobility, but T6, 4+ cover etc. the increased toughness for eating overwatch as a solo model I reckon would outweigh the damage done by overwatch when it hits full unit. I think that in overwatch you killed 3 bikes right? or was it 2 bikes and a boss? regardless 3 stock bikes is 150 points (5 points more than a solo boss) or 250 for the boss and 2 stock bikes lost to overwatch... if you were needing 5's to wound with s5 shooting vs. t6 that would of probably inflicted less wounds than against majority T5 also right?
I run a 2nd biker boss with a single deffkopta for 2 wound ablative T6 majority just to catch overwatch for my nob bikers sometimes.. but the principle can be applied to the deathstar by using the t6 solo boss.
Just my 2 cents. hope my analysis wasn't over bearing or annoying.
Maybe we could get some matchups from different bonus matches combined. I'm really asking for the Spartan-hammernators to get a different matchup, like the nob-bikers, Draigowing, or Bad Company. I'd be interested to see what would insue in those matchups
Think that would be a good match-up. If played right the death company could limit the shooting of the pinkstar and try to indulge in some FnP boost!
If I have the time, I might try out that match-up.
But I can tell you right now that it will be a massacre by daemons. Their shooting is just too strong and the Angels really have no answer for a buffed-up LoC. Stay away and BA will get shot up by the Pinkstar. Get up close and they will get assaulted by the LoC. Now if the Angels get lucky and daemons get a bunch of bad breaks, BA might be able to squeak one by. Otherwise, they will be a huge underdog.
The attempt is to mitigate what pink horrors can fire at him. Try not to absorb all their firepower at once. The goal is to boost the FnP.
2+ re-rollable cover save... They can all benefit from the neurochip and ignore cover with their shooting. Might trade plasma for missles for the sake of firing and charging still.
Not bad, but not viable either. Sure they've got resiliency, but this unit has neither the mobility nor the volume-of-fire to deal with other true deathstars.
Mobility is an issue. Volume of fire I would have to argue with. Unless the tau get misfortune or a way to ignore cover they could probably bring them down if they close the distance. If not they can have the tau commander shoot at them from range and dwindle them down. This build slaughters the pinkstar as 3d6 psychic checks and it can also deny the witch on a 4+. The paladin list would be the toughest as their are only 5 invul saves in the list. Even though they can re-roll them with fortune it would be the toughest match-up. Though the wraithguard can isntant death the paladins on to wound rolls of 6. They also have hit and run. The tau commander could even eat ap3 force weapons.
eldrad 3++
Wraithguard 3+ with 5+ cover base from conceal
Spiritseer 4++
Shadowsun 3+ 5++
shield drones 4++
Tau Commander 2+
Fire power:
10 S x always wounds on 2+ and 6 Cause ID shots 12" range
2 Rapid Fire S6 Ap2 24" range
2 Fusion blaster S8 ap1 shots
There is another flavor using Wraithguard Star that I use to great success:
Eldrad
10 Wraithguard /spiritseer conceal spear
Tau Commander w/ IR, Vectored Thrusters and stuff (currently running him without weapons only because of points) 2 shield drones
Wraithseer w/ D-cannon (or Brightlance - still trying to get a feel for what is better overall) - for the 4+ FNP on the wraithguard
yeah... its 1k, but its crazy hard to dislodge and having a Tough Scoring unit with Eldar is HUGE
You lose a bit of shooting and 2 ablative wounds, but gain the mobility of jetbikes (and as a DE player I'm all about mobility), slash attacks, and some decent CC attacks should it come to that. If the Grimoire fails to go off they can beat feet 36" away and try again next turn. Plus there's some points left over to throw in something annoying like the Masque, Blue Scribes (more for fun), a skullcannon, a big swam of nurglings, an extra 14 horrors/5 screamers for the heralds to jump to if needed, drop one locus for a soulgrinder, etc.
The attempt is to mitigate what pink horrors can fire at him. Try not to absorb all their firepower at once. The goal is to boost the FnP.
Who cares about boosting FNP. The LoC will ignore it anyways (S8 due to Staff of Change) and BA has no way to get out of combat against him.
SaganGree wrote: There is another flavor using Wraithguard Star that I use to great success:
Eldrad
10 Wraithguard /spiritseer conceal spear
Tau Commander w/ IR, Vectored Thrusters and stuff (currently running him without weapons only because of points) 2 shield drones
Wraithseer w/ D-cannon (or Brightlance - still trying to get a feel for what is better overall) - for the 4+ FNP on the wraithguard
yeah... its 1k, but its crazy hard to dislodge and having a Tough Scoring unit with Eldar is HUGE
Mobility is an issue. Volume of fire I would have to argue with. Unless the tau get misfortune or a way to ignore cover they could probably bring them down if they close the distance. If not they can have the tau commander shoot at them from range and dwindle them down. This build slaughters the pinkstar as 3d6 psychic checks and it can also deny the witch on a 4+. The paladin list would be the toughest as their are only 5 invul saves in the list. Even though they can re-roll them with fortune it would be the toughest match-up. Though the wraithguard can isntant death the paladins on to wound rolls of 6. They also have hit and run. The tau commander could even eat ap3 force weapons.
eldrad 3++
Wraithguard 3+ with 5+ cover base from conceal
Spiritseer 4++
Shadowsun 3+ 5++
shield drones 4++
Tau Commander 2+
Fire power:
10 S x always wounds on 2+ and 6 Cause ID shots 12" range
2 Rapid Fire S6 Ap2 24" range
2 Fusion blaster S8 ap1 shots
Here are my issues with the the Taudar Wraithstar list:
1. Lack of mobility. I believe everyone is in agreement here.
2. Volume-of-fire. While they have a volume of quality fire (low-AP guns), they lack the volume of normal fire which is what it takes to down some of these deathstars here. Low-AP guns really don't make much of a difference when their effective range is only 18" and enemy units are getting 2+ cover or 2+ invuln's or some combination thereof. It won't even put a dent in some of those deathstars.
3. Short-ranged. In order to shoot, it needs to get dangerously close to assault deathstars. Meanwhile, shooty deathstars can just play keep-away.
4. 2+ re-rollable cover is good, but as far as my deathstars are concerned, it isn't reliable at all. Farsight Tau will remove your cover with Multi-Spectrum Sensors and pelt you to death from a distance. The Pinkstar has a good chance to get Perfect Timing to ignore your cover with their 5 Lvl 3 Divination psykers. They've also got a good chance to get Misfortune to screw with Fortune. Grey Knights have a slim chance to get both Perfect Timing or Misfortune....or they can just assault once the wraithstar gets in range to shoot.
Deploying as far back as possible doesn't really help IMO. 1st turn he could just set himself up just outside my shooting range and then it would be just like normal, only he probably would have tabled me on T3 instead of T2. Deploying back would have just delayed the inevitable. I'd rather have the room to fall back, and what I needed was for him to FAIL HIS DAMN SAVES!!!
You have six suits with move&shoot missile pods - six if you use the one to twin-link the others. If he sets up just outside of your shooting range, that puts him 40" away from you. I hardly see a better scenario for the Tau. That's eight or nine wounds additional wounds he has to save.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Hmm interestingly enough I did think the seer council would do well vs the Tau, they just can't handle the speed, fortune and doom.
You da man!
We'll see if the council can do it twice in a row for the final game. However, this time, I've got a little more experience with Farsight and his buddies.
probably gakked up the quote but probably good enough...
I agree the bikers won't outgun the paladins but the bikers winning the match is highly dependant upon how they hit the paladins. Without taking into account luck, I think the best shot bikers have at downing the paladins is through a combination of volume of fire and S10 hits. I feel like if the bikers split up around that rock, and sent a lone boss with his kombi skorcha to the flank of paladins (more close than the nob bikers and positioned where a multi assault from paladins vs. bikers and solo boss is nigh impossible).. making paladins decide to shoot the large group of bikers and put a dent in them before they are surely shot/charged next turn (and hit with all those skorchas as the range will be alot closer with the biker boss providing cover)...... Think of that biker boss as darth vader in his tie fighter... or thats how i do at least. Make them elect a hon solo to go toe to toe with boss while rest of group shoots bikers. Boss may just win (probably not I'd say but odds are better than a straight up fight star vs star). Paladins could just all shoot/charge and kill the solo boss but then that leaves the remainder of the group unmolested to move in, drop 4-5 S5 flamers, rack up 10 hammer of wrath attacks, then get their normal combat..
If they don't kill the biker boss hes free to skorcha their keesters, and charge in and die gloriously to the overwatch, while letting his buddies scoot on in unscathed.... the nobs also really really need more bosspoles. people really skip out on them. you need a bosspole on a non-character as well for once all yours get challenged and beat down like dogs.
With you taking such an aggressive stance with paladins in this match jy2, I felt it would of left you vulnerable to him closing gap like that, splitting biker boss off, and probably would have been his best shot at pulling the W.
I think that one of the strengths of the nob bikers that was really not taken into account is the fact that there are 3 capable entities in that one unit that can use one another to catch overwatch, force decisions etc. I don't think for them to qualify as a deathstar they have to stay in the same "unit".. I think one boss breaking out of the unit to help with situations is a very key dynamic capability, not just due to their mobility, but T6, 4+ cover etc. the increased toughness for eating overwatch as a solo model I reckon would outweigh the damage done by overwatch when it hits full unit. I think that in overwatch you killed 3 bikes right? or was it 2 bikes and a boss? regardless 3 stock bikes is 150 points (5 points more than a solo boss) or 250 for the boss and 2 stock bikes lost to overwatch... if you were needing 5's to wound with s5 shooting vs. t6 that would of probably inflicted less wounds than against majority T5 also right?
I run a 2nd biker boss with a single deffkopta for 2 wound ablative T6 majority just to catch overwatch for my nob bikers sometimes.. but the principle can be applied to the deathstar by using the t6 solo boss.
Just my 2 cents. hope my analysis wasn't over bearing or annoying.
Excited to see the rest come down the pipeline!
Yeah, if they can hit the paladins full force and have one of the warbosses split up to absorb the Overwatch, then they have a chance (though still not very good).
But in our battle, you have to keep in mind that everyone else was behind his warboss. So his warboss was about 6.5" away from my paladins. That means the guys in the back (who died to my Overwatch) would be around 9-10" away. Split them up and the guys in the back stands a chance of failing to make assault. Otherwise, to get into a position where everyone can make the assault, the nobs are most likely going to have to eat 1 turn of shooting from the paladins just to reposition themselves.
Also, the halberds were enough to kill the bikers in range of assault. My swords and hammerdins didn't even get to fight. If all the nob bikers were able to get into combat, then the swords and hammers had a good chance to kill them as well as they would then have a target to fight against.
No matter how you put it, it would've been a uphill battle for orks IMO.
ace101 wrote: Maybe we could get some matchups from different bonus matches combined. I'm really asking for the Spartan-hammernators to get a different matchup, like the nob-bikers, Draigowing, or Bad Company. I'd be interested to see what would insue in those matchups
Ok, I will add your request to the queue.
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Sorry if someone proposed this one already (missed a few pages in the middle), but what about something like this:
Screamer Council Daemons (open to name suggestions lol)
You lose a bit of shooting and 2 ablative wounds, but gain the mobility of jetbikes (and as a DE player I'm all about mobility), slash attacks, and some decent CC attacks should it come to that. If the Grimoire fails to go off they can beat feet 36" away and try again next turn. Plus there's some points left over to throw in something annoying like the Masque, Blue Scribes (more for fun), a skullcannon, a big swam of nurglings, an extra 14 horrors/5 screamers for the heralds to jump to if needed, drop one locus for a soulgrinder, etc.
Interesting deathstar.
I'm not so sure about the mix. Is it a shooty deathstar or an assault deathstar? It's got mobility but isn't so great in combat. It's got some shooting, but you're going to move within 24" of the opponent to shoot them, thus restricting its mobility and putting the unit at risk to enemy shooting. Honestly, I don't see this deathstar as being as good as the Pinkstar. The Pinkstar has better raw Firepower and a much, much better complement in the LoC than any additional unit the screamer-star can bring in.
Deploying as far back as possible doesn't really help IMO. 1st turn he could just set himself up just outside my shooting range and then it would be just like normal, only he probably would have tabled me on T3 instead of T2. Deploying back would have just delayed the inevitable. I'd rather have the room to fall back, and what I needed was for him to FAIL HIS DAMN SAVES!!!
You have six suits with move&shoot missile pods - six if you use the one to twin-link the others. If he sets up just outside of your shooting range, that puts him 40" away from you. I hardly see a better scenario for the Tau. That's eight or nine wounds additional wounds he has to save.
How is that a better scenario? The seer council can turbo-boost and move a whopping 48" to be within assault range next turn. Whether Farsight's unit is 24" away or 40" away, they're only going to get 1 chance to shoot before the council is on them.
You also have to keep in mind that, depending on the deployment, Tau may not even be able to deploy that far back.
That was a poor showing for tau, I think alot had to do with your in experience using tau and your opponents experience with the eldar. I dont see any reason why you would charge eldar...lol!
additionally I was playing around with my game table at home and the tau can set up in such a way to make it hard for them to get that first run charge or at the very least limit what can get in. ESPECIALLY, witht hat big building you put in the middle, its a good choke point for the eldar.
The two situations tau should get are like so
2 rounds of shooting + over watch then you take one assault, hit and run another shooting plus overwatch
1 round of shooting + overwatch (with limited models in combat)
ADDITIONALLY - Eldar NEED to go first or they are likely to get hurt, they also NEED certain powers to be extremely strong. Tau are underdogs not going first but they will not neccessarily lose.
Items to take away for tau vs deldar
1. NEVER CHARGE ELDAR!!!
2. With premeasure set it up to limit charges to try and get 2 turns of shooting before comat or at MINIMUM limit the amount they can get in on the charge.
3. In combat keep the puretide hit and run guy out of combat if you can....dunno how but keep his butt in the way back!!!
4. Always try and set it up where they can possibly fail charge. Correct me if I am wrong but with the hit and run distance + move + jsj you should always be able to get back 24" or more them? is their movement option 12" plus charge? they cant fleet on bikes can they?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: [
How is that a better scenario? The seer council can turbo-boost and move a whopping 48" to be within assault range next turn. Whether Farsight's unit is 24" away or 40" away, they're only going to get 1 chance to shoot before the council is on them.
You also have to keep in mind that, depending on the deployment, Tau may not even be able to deploy that far back.
If they are assaulting NEXT turn then that is two turns of shooting? yes no?
Oh and drone controller on a suit works for all the drones. I take it in my star, 8 pts for another bs on all those carbines is nice! also, can the deldar be pinned?
That was a poor showing for tau, I think alot had to do with your in experience using tau and your opponents experience with the eldar. I dont see any reason why you would charge eldar...lol!
additionally I was playing around with my game table at home and the tau can set up in such a way to make it hard for them to get that first run charge or at the very least limit what can get in. ESPECIALLY, witht hat big building you put in the middle, its a good choke point for the eldar.
The two situations tau should get are like so
2 rounds of shooting + over watch then you take one assault, hit and run another shooting plus overwatch
1 round of shooting + overwatch (with limited models in combat)
ADDITIONALLY - Eldar NEED to go first or they are likely to get hurt, they also NEED certain powers to be extremely strong. Tau are underdogs not going first but they will not neccessarily lose.
Items to take away for tau vs deldar
1. NEVER CHARGE ELDAR!!!
2. With premeasure set it up to limit charges to try and get 2 turns of shooting before comat or at MINIMUM limit the amount they can get in on the charge.
3. In combat keep the puretide hit and run guy out of combat if you can....dunno how but keep his butt in the way back!!!
4. Always try and set it up where they can possibly fail charge. Correct me if I am wrong but with the hit and run distance + move + jsj you should always be able to get back 24" or more them? is their movement option 12" plus charge? they cant fleet on bikes can they?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: [
How is that a better scenario? The seer council can turbo-boost and move a whopping 48" to be within assault range next turn. Whether Farsight's unit is 24" away or 40" away, they're only going to get 1 chance to shoot before the council is on them.
You also have to keep in mind that, depending on the deployment, Tau may not even be able to deploy that far back.
If they are assaulting NEXT turn then that is two turns of shooting? yes no?
Oh and drone controller on a suit works for all the drones. I take it in my star, 8 pts for another bs on all those carbines is nice! also, can the deldar be pinned?
I must admit that I am not the most experienced Tau general. But I feel that I do have a good feel for them as I have played against Farsight & friends many times.
As for charging eldar, Tau is actually not too bad in combat. Each bodyguard has 3 attacks each (4 on the charge) and then I've got a lot of drones as well. Basically, if I hit them before they are able to get their other powers off (Prescience & Misfortune), Tau actually has a higher volume of attacks and a slight chance to put the hurt on some warlocks. I didn't really care if he killed some gun drones in return.
What I didn't realize was that each of those mofos could Precision Strike. Grrrr......
The alternative was to jump back and let him flame and assault me next turn, which would have been the same if he had Hit & Run after combat.
The only way Tau is going to get 2 shooting chances against eldar is if they stole the initiative. Even if they went first, Eldar could just deploy outside of their threat range. It's almost impossible to get away from the council's 60"+ threat range (12" move + 36" turbo-boost, then 12" move and 2d6" re-rollable charge). Eldar bikes can re-roll assault due to Fleet. You have to hope your roll high for Shadowsun's 3D6" assault move and for eldar to roll low for their charge even after Fleet.
Also, with Precision Strikes, I don't believe you can avoid it even by putting certain models in the back.
Good to know about the Drone Controller. If that is the case, I will adjust my list to include a Drone Controller in it.
Also, if you want, you can play the Farsight bomb in their final match. I can setup the matchup against Grant's seer council on Thurs if you'd like.
@ jy2, I agree, it was an uphill battle for sure. The GK I felt would be one of their tougher match-ups.. I know I avoid paladins with my nob bikers, as well as death company (dc would rip the bikers up I think as well, if they got the charge for sure and had enough mauls/pswords)
I just am getting at if you press the paladins from both sides, where they know on the next ork turn they are going to get skorchad and charged ... you force a a pressure driven decision (which never seemed to happen)...
You also guarantee a ton of skorcha/HoW hits and with the superior mobility catch up with the positioning of the pallies.
Nob bikers were going to have to REALLY really work for a W there. Just spitballing how it could happen
jy2 wrote: [
How is that a better scenario? The seer council can turbo-boost and move a whopping 48" to be within assault range next turn. Whether Farsight's unit is 24" away or 40" away, they're only going to get 1 chance to shoot before the council is on them.
You also have to keep in mind that, depending on the deployment, Tau may not even be able to deploy that far back.
If they are assaulting NEXT turn then that is two turns of shooting? yes no?
Oh and drone controller on a suit works for all the drones. I take it in my star, 8 pts for another bs on all those carbines is nice! also, can the deldar be pinned?
I must admit that I am not the most experienced Tau general. But I feel that I do have a good feel for them as I have played against Farsight & friends many times.
As for charging eldar, Tau is actually not too bad in combat. Each bodyguard has 3 attacks each (4 on the charge) and then I've got a lot of drones as well. Basically, if I hit them before they are able to get their other powers off (Prescience & Misfortune), Tau actually has a higher volume of attacks and a slight chance to put the hurt on some warlocks. I didn't really care if he killed some gun drones in return.
What I didn't realize was that each of those mofos could Precision Strike. Grrrr......
The alternative was to jump back and let him flame and assault me next turn, which would have been the same if he had Hit & Run after combat.
The only way Tau is going to get 2 shooting chances against eldar is if they stole the initiative. Even if they went first, Eldar could just deploy outside of their threat range. It's almost impossible to get away from the council's 60"+ threat range (12" move + 36" turbo-boost, then 12" move and 2d6" re-rollable charge). Eldar bikes can re-roll assault due to Fleet. You have to hope your roll high for Shadowsun's 3D6" assault move and for eldar to roll low for their charge even after Fleet.
Also, with Precision Strikes, I don't believe you can avoid it even by putting certain models in the back.
Good to know about the Drone Controller. If that is the case, I will adjust my list to include a Drone Controller in it.
Also, if you want, you can play the Farsight bomb in their final match. I can setup the matchup against Grant's seer council on Thurs if you'd like.
they can turbo boost like that and assault in the same turn? you also cant take the 2d6 assault move either, turboboost says you may not take any voluntary action in the turn you boost. Based on what i am seeing they can move 12" andf turbo 24" but cant assault or use the assault move. To assault they can only move 12" plus 2d6 (reroll due to fleet). After i get charged I get to hit and run (get 10" on average?) move 6" then jump another 3d6.....how do you see that it is impossible to run from them?
Is their a faq that makes this possible? In my defense I played 6 games when 6th came out and took a break till tau came out so I am rusty on rules....
Thursday game --- I cant do it this week unfortunetly I am away on buisness.
Tau will most likely only get 1 turn of shooting in before they get assaulted.
If Eldar goes first, they turbo-boost to as close as Tau as they can get (say, 1" away).
This is basically the only chance for Tau to shoot.
On Tau's turn, say they move back 6". They are now 7" away and they shoot. Then in the Assault phase, they will jump back an average of 10.5" with Shadowsun in the unit. They are now 17.5" away.
Then on eldar's next turn, they move up 12" and need only assault 6" (with re-roll's due to fleet). This is assuming they don't shoot. This also assuming Tau has that much space to fall back (something they probably wouldn't be able to do if this was Dawn of War deployment or if they are already deploying in the back).
If Tau went first, then all eldar really needs to do is to deploy either outside of their shooting range (42"+) or behind LOS-blocking terrain. Then next turn, turbo-boost to as close as Tau as possible. Tau will most likely still only have 1 turn of shooting them before they are in assault.
2 turns of shooting would require some luck on the part of Tau. It would basically require a failed charge by the seer council.
Ah, I didn't realize that all the Jetbikes also had Fleet. However, don't forget that the Tau will probably get a couple extra inches (even 2" could matter) from killing the closest models with their shooting. Then they'll probably kill 1 more with overwatch.
I'd say that, on average, the Eldar will be trying to make an 8" charge. Pretty likely with Fleet, but they could fail. With a single failed charge, it's completely over. Tau can shoot again AND end up even further away.
Still worth trying to get away, I'd say. The Tau want to shoot as much as possible (and avoiding the Destructors is also nice). Not to mention that with a single great jump move (say the Tau jump back 15"), the Eldar won't be able to catch them.
jy2 wrote: Let me clarify it for you how it works.
Tau will most likely only get 1 turn of shooting in before they get assaulted.
If Eldar goes first, they turbo-boost to as close as Tau as they can get (say, 1" away).
This is basically the only chance for Tau to shoot.
On Tau's turn, say they move back 6". They are now 7" away and they shoot. Then in the Assault phase, they will jump back an average of 10.5" with Shadowsun in the unit. They are now 17.5" away.
Then on eldar's next turn, they move up 12" and need only assault 6" (with re-roll's due to fleet). This is assuming they don't shoot. This also assuming Tau has that much space to fall back (something they probably wouldn't be able to do if this was Dawn of War deployment or if they are already deploying in the back).
If Tau went first, then all eldar really needs to do is to deploy either outside of their shooting range (42"+) or behind LOS-blocking terrain. Then next turn, turbo-boost to as close as Tau as possible. Tau will most likely still only have 1 turn of shooting them before they are in assault.
2 turns of shooting would require some luck on the part of Tau. It would basically require a failed charge by the seer council.
Oh i should have clarified, I agree on the 1 turn initially. I am now arguing the hit and run move to make it harder for them to get the tau deathstar on subsequent turns. It all depends on how easy/hard it is to get the hit and run suit to survive. Maybe the iradium suit needs to be on the hit and run guy?
Final turbo boost clarification - you are "turbo boosting" in a straight line right? and based on that premise you think you can always get within 1"?
also my previous question, can the jetbikes be pinned by the carbines?
SaganGree wrote: There is another flavor using Wraithguard Star that I use to great success:
Eldrad
10 Wraithguard /spiritseer conceal spear
Tau Commander w/ IR, Vectored Thrusters and stuff (currently running him without weapons only because of points) 2 shield drones
Wraithseer w/ D-cannon (or Brightlance - still trying to get a feel for what is better overall) - for the 4+ FNP on the wraithguard
yeah... its 1k, but its crazy hard to dislodge and having a Tough Scoring unit with Eldar is HUGE
Shadowsun comes with the 2 shield drones and gives the squad the 2+ cover save without any psychic powers. The psychic powers just give the ability to re-roll it.
Siphen wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that all the Jetbikes also had Fleet. However, don't forget that the Tau will probably get a couple extra inches (even 2" could matter) from killing the closest models with their shooting. Then they'll probably kill 1 more with overwatch.
I'd say that, on average, the Eldar will be trying to make an 8" charge. Pretty likely with Fleet, but they could fail. With a single failed charge, it's completely over. Tau can shoot again AND end up even further away.
Still worth trying to get away, I'd say. The Tau want to shoot as much as possible (and avoiding the Destructors is also nice). Not to mention that with a single great jump move (say the Tau jump back 15"), the Eldar won't be able to catch them.
yep I agree with you Siphen! and this is what i am trying to get at. Tau have alot of chances to open the gap and if they can get even one turn where they dont get assaulted they will win.
it makes me excited as it means it is a very even match! when its death star on deathstar.
In a real game the deldar would die hardcore as the tau can make the gaps they need with bubble wrap, but bubble wrap will not save the deldar from the tau....nor will hiding since i will use sms missiles on them. (course the eldar might have some tricks to mess with farsight but i played them alot in 4th and 5th and cant think of anything they have that threatens the farsuns tar at range)
SMS: 2/3 chance to wound (S5 vs T4), 1/3 chance to not save (3+ Armor Save), , 1/3 chance on reroll (Fortune). 2/27 chance after you get the hit.
So getting even 2 wounds from a bunch of SMS seems unlikely, once you count ballistic skill. SMS is beastly because it ignores cover by default, but to go against an Invisible Seer Council you want something that ignores cover and is at least AP3 to drop the Armor Save as well.
If they're not Invisible, then the Ignores Cover on SMS is pointless anyway.
You lose a bit of shooting and 2 ablative wounds, but gain the mobility of jetbikes (and as a DE player I'm all about mobility), slash attacks, and some decent CC attacks should it come to that. If the Grimoire fails to go off they can beat feet 36" away and try again next turn. Plus there's some points left over to throw in something annoying like the Masque, Blue Scribes (more for fun), a skullcannon, a big swam of nurglings, an extra 14 horrors/5 screamers for the heralds to jump to if needed, drop one locus for a soulgrinder, etc.
Interesting deathstar.
I'm not so sure about the mix. Is it a shooty deathstar or an assault deathstar? It's got mobility but isn't so great in combat. It's got some shooting, but you're going to move within 24" of the opponent to shoot them, thus restricting its mobility and putting the unit at risk to enemy shooting. Honestly, I don't see this deathstar as being as good as the Pinkstar. The Pinkstar has better raw Firepower and a much, much better complement in the LoC than any additional unit the screamer-star can bring in.
It's primarily shooting but it also doesn't simply roll over in CC like the pinkstar does and could probably give the Deldar trouble, and the Tau lots of trouble in CC if the heralds get 2 precision strikes between the 4 of them (I agree the LoC is a beast though). To me the biggest benefit it has over the Pinkstar is it's mobility, which lets it move out of range of just about all the death stars if the Grimoire doesn't go off. So basically it gets to dictate when and where the fight happens. True it doesn't do the same raw damage as the pinkstar + LoC, but it should also take far less damage since almost anytime it doesn't have 2++s (or atleast 3++s if they don't get forewarning off) they can bounce out of range.
Quark wrote: SMS: 2/3 chance to wound (S5 vs T4), 1/3 chance to not save (3+ Armor Save), , 1/3 chance on reroll (Fortune). 2/27 chance after you get the hit.
So getting even 2 wounds from a bunch of SMS seems unlikely, once you count ballistic skill. SMS is beastly because it ignores cover by default, but to go against an Invisible Seer Council you want something that ignores cover and is at least AP3 to drop the Armor Save as well.
If they're not Invisible, then the Ignores Cover on SMS is pointless anyway.
good math hammer, but lets not detract from the deathstar vs deathstar focus of this thread. I shouldnt have done my what if scenario in the first place! since that ball of wax can spin a 1000 ways out of control!
Oh i should have clarified, I agree on the 1 turn initially. I am now arguing the hit and run move to make it harder for them to get the tau deathstar on subsequent turns. It all depends on how easy/hard it is to get the hit and run suit to survive. Maybe the iradium suit needs to be on the hit and run guy?
Final turbo boost clarification - you are "turbo boosting" in a straight line right? and based on that premise you think you can always get within 1"?
also my previous question, can the jetbikes be pinned by the carbines?
The thing is, eldar can also Hit-&-Run as well to gain extra movement thanks to the Baron. That's what happened on T1 as we both H&R out of combat. And if the seer council hits them in combat, say goodbye to your H&R guy. Every attack is a Precision Strike because everyone in the unit is a character and the bodyguards cannot do Look-Out-Sirs. I highly doubt strategic models will survive in combat, especially if eldar cast Prescience for re-roll's to hit.
I wouldn't put H&R on the Iridium guy because he is the one I would use to tank incoming shots after the drones are dead. 2+ is better used for tanking small-arms fire and at least his T5 will allow him to survive against lascannons/missiles/meltas a little longer. I would also use him to tank incoming regular hits as well as AP3 power weapon attacks. Basically, that guy is going to die. His job is just to minimize the damage to the rest of the unit by absorbing as much damage as possible so that the Tau can still shoot at a high capacity.
Turbo-boost does not need to be in a straight line. As long as the opponent does not deploy more than 48" away from the jetbikes, you can almost always get within 1" of the target.
As for whether they can be pinned, I'm not sure. It would depend on whether the Baron is Fearless or not (probably not). In any case, we forgot to do pinning tests for deldar because I forgot that the guns were pinning. However, I wouldn't count on it too much. Eldar are testing on LD10 with re-rolls thanks to Embolden.
Siphen wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that all the Jetbikes also had Fleet. However, don't forget that the Tau will probably get a couple extra inches (even 2" could matter) from killing the closest models with their shooting. Then they'll probably kill 1 more with overwatch.
I'd say that, on average, the Eldar will be trying to make an 8" charge. Pretty likely with Fleet, but they could fail. With a single failed charge, it's completely over. Tau can shoot again AND end up even further away.
Still worth trying to get away, I'd say. The Tau want to shoot as much as possible (and avoiding the Destructors is also nice). Not to mention that with a single great jump move (say the Tau jump back 15"), the Eldar won't be able to catch them.
Yeah, probably in the rematch, I will try out the strategy of running away. If I get lucky, I may be able to get in 2 turns of shooting.
SaganGree wrote: There is another flavor using Wraithguard Star that I use to great success:
Eldrad
10 Wraithguard /spiritseer conceal spear
Tau Commander w/ IR, Vectored Thrusters and stuff (currently running him without weapons only because of points) 2 shield drones
Wraithseer w/ D-cannon (or Brightlance - still trying to get a feel for what is better overall) - for the 4+ FNP on the wraithguard
yeah... its 1k, but its crazy hard to dislodge and having a Tough Scoring unit with Eldar is HUGE
Shadowsun comes with the 2 shield drones and gives the squad the 2+ cover save without any psychic powers. The psychic powers just give the ability to re-roll it.
Actually, she doesn't come with free shield drones. You have to pay for them. Also, they don't give the unit 2+ cover. Rather, Shadowsun gives the unit Stealth and Shrouded. The unit actually has to be behind cover or in area terrain to get 2+ cover (or benefit from Conceal from the Spiritseer or jink from bikers/jetbikes). Shadowsun's shield drones only has 3++ Invuln's.
Oh i should have clarified, I agree on the 1 turn initially. I am now arguing the hit and run move to make it harder for them to get the tau deathstar on subsequent turns. It all depends on how easy/hard it is to get the hit and run suit to survive. Maybe the iradium suit needs to be on the hit and run guy?
Final turbo boost clarification - you are "turbo boosting" in a straight line right? and based on that premise you think you can always get within 1"?
also my previous question, can the jetbikes be pinned by the carbines?
The thing is, eldar can also Hit-&-Run as well to gain extra movement thanks to the Baron. That's what happened on T1 as we both H&R out of combat. And if the seer council hits them in combat, say goodbye to your H&R guy. Every attack is a Precision Strike because everyone in the unit is a character and the bodyguards cannot do Look-Out-Sirs. I highly doubt strategic models will survive in combat, especially if eldar cast Prescience for re-roll's to hit.
I wouldn't put H&R on the Iridium guy because he is the one I would use to tank incoming shots after the drones are dead. 2+ is better used for tanking small-arms fire and at least his T5 will allow him to survive against lascannons/missiles/meltas a little longer. I would also use him to tank incoming regular hits as well as AP3 power weapon attacks. Basically, that guy is going to die. His job is just to minimize the damage to the rest of the unit by absorbing as much damage as possible so that the Tau can still shoot at a high capacity.
Turbo-boost does not need to be in a straight line. As long as the opponent does not deploy more than 48" away from the jetbikes, you can almost always get within 1" of the target.
As for whether they can be pinned, I'm not sure. It would depend on whether the Baron is Fearless or not (probably not). In any case, we forgot to do pinning tests for deldar because I forgot that the guns were pinning. However, I wouldn't count on it too much. Eldar are testing on LD10 with re-rolls thanks to Embolden.
AWWW!! double hit and run...duh, how does that work? who runs first? the defender? EDIT - looked it up it is a roll off on who has to hit and run first. Makes it chancy for the eldar cause if they hit and run then the tau can just go the other way if they get to go second!!! The eldar almost wants to in most cases NOT hit and run and hope the tau dont get very far.
and damn those precision hits! its looking grim now....
I disagree on turbo boost, unless there was a faq? it says pick two points and draw a line, that means straight trying to say you can make a curved line invalidates the entire reason why they would word it as "pick two points" they would have just said you may turboboost 24" meaning you can go whereever you want.
AWWW!! double hit and run...duh, how does that work? who runs first? the defender? EDIT - looked it up it is a roll off on who has to hit and run first. Makes it chancy for the eldar cause if they hit and run then the tau can just go the other way if they get to go second!!! The eldar almost wants to in most cases NOT hit and run and hope the tau dont get very far.
and damn those precision hits! its looking grim now....
I disagree on turbo boost, unless there was a faq? it says pick two points and draw a line, that means straight trying to say you can make a curved line invalidates the entire reason why they would word it as "pick two points" they would have just said you may turboboost 24" meaning you can go whereever you want.
I'll double-check the rules for Turbo-boost when I get home later. Don't have my BRB with me.
If 2 units have H&R, you just roll off to see who leaves combat first.
pg38 - Hit and Run - Roll off. If the last HnR unit is no longer in combat, it Consolidates instead.
pg45 - Turbo Boost - Says nothing about "lines". Just up to 12/24/36". In an earlier section, though "Jetbikes can always move over all other models and all terrain freely."
pg38 - Hit and Run - Roll off. If the last HnR unit is no longer in combat, it Consolidates instead.
pg45 - Turbo Boost - Says nothing about "lines". Just up to 12/24/36". In an earlier section, though "Jetbikes can always move over all other models and all terrain freely."
turbo boost - Good grief i was looking at my 5th ed book....sigh...ignore me.
hit and run - damn that clarification on last unit is good for the damn eldar.....if they go first just hit and run like 1" so your still on top and the tau can only consolidate......
if tau goes first its basically a chase on who can roll further for the run.....
damn, it is looking grim for the tau in this scenario!
EDIT!!!
NEW ISSUE!! just got home and looked up the baron in the codex and he isnt on a jet bike and is treated as a jump infantry. How does he keep up with turbo boosting eldar? can he even use his jump move as jump says he must move like the other units and since jetbikes dont jump....how does he jump? I looked through the dark eldar faq, and am now on the rulebook faq on how he works...in a unit of jetbikes.
Yes the conceal gives a 5+ cover. The then stacks with shrouding and stealth. Making the 2+ cover save. Then fortune from eldrad gives them the re-roll to save. The list is seriously resilient. Still haven't decided if it should run plasma or missle for the commander. They ignore cover for all shooting. Have hit and run. The neurochip can help with counter attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn, or tank hunter. Ide like to see this list vs Paladin star. I seriously think it eats it for lunch. The toughest match-up for this list would probably be the tau.
pg38 - Hit and Run - Roll off. If the last HnR unit is no longer in combat, it Consolidates instead.
pg45 - Turbo Boost - Says nothing about "lines". Just up to 12/24/36". In an earlier section, though "Jetbikes can always move over all other models and all terrain freely."
turbo boost - Good grief i was looking at my 5th ed book....sigh...ignore me.
hit and run - damn that clarification on last unit is good for the damn eldar.....if they go first just hit and run like 1" so your still on top and the tau can only consolidate......
if tau goes first its basically a chase on who can roll further for the run.....
damn, it is looking grim for the tau in this scenario!
EDIT!!!
NEW ISSUE!! just got home and looked up the baron in the codex and he isnt on a jet bike and is treated as a jump infantry. How does he keep up with turbo boosting eldar? can he even use his jump move as jump says he must move like the other units and since jetbikes dont jump....how does he jump? I looked through the dark eldar faq, and am now on the rulebook faq on how he works...in a unit of jetbikes.
The baron just has to stay within coherency, which can be accomplished by daisy chaining the unit if need be, it's really not that hard to do when you start him in the front of the unit turn one. He definitely limits there speed a tad but the unit will get into combat turn 2 pretty easily. Doesn't matter how any model moves so long as they finish within 2" of another squad member, that unit is large and as I said it's not that difficult to keep him with the unit.
Everything is going as planned *rubs hands together*
Realistically, if Deldar get misfortune (high likely hood), this becomes a difficult matchup for Tau. As Jy2 has pointed out several times now, all the Eldar player has to do is deploy out of first turn shooting range of the Tau and Eldar only have to endure one turn of fire before getting in combat.
Assuming all the Eldar players powers go off, and this is a pretty safe bet as Eldar psykers are possibly the most reliable in the game and Tau can only deny on a 6, Eldar can dish out a lot of wounds. In turn your opponent has to roll a bucket load of dice to save. Once in combat, precision strikes can be used to play a conservative game (take out H&R) or go for the throat (allocate to Stubborn model and try to run down). People tend to underestemate how much dmg the council can put out in HtH due to the lack of AP on their weapons. However between Doom, Prescience, and Misfortune you end up drowning your opponent in dice. Even against 2+ armor, the council's 40 attacks would put out 9-10 unsaved wounds.
All in all, the Seer Council just has the tools to get the job done against Tau. 80/20 odds favoring Eldar IMHO. Only deathstars that give the council problems have a combination of multi-wound, FNP, or 2+. Paladins have all of those so, ignoring everything else that can be said about the the two games showcased here, it's a bad matchup for the council. To win the Deldar have to play perfectly, with a lot of breaks going their way. Paladins, on the other hand, can win handily rolling just below avg. Council vs. Nob bikers would be nearly as bad.
As has already been said, deathstars are a paper -rock- scissors affair. They become truly nasty when you attach an army that compliments their weakness.
Yes the conceal gives a 5+ cover. The then stacks with shrouding and stealth. Making the 2+ cover save. Then fortune from eldrad gives them the re-roll to save. The list is seriously resilient. Still haven't decided if it should run plasma or missle for the commander. They ignore cover for all shooting. Have hit and run. The neurochip can help with counter attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn, or tank hunter. Ide like to see this list vs Paladin star. I seriously think it eats it for lunch. The toughest match-up for this list would probably be the tau.
All the paladins have to do is get into CC with the units and then the Guard will crumble underneath the weight of the pally star. Also no need for Eldrad, just a Farseer or two.
First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread
And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...
Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army
Skip wrote: First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread
And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...
Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army
Yes, an attached SM Librarian covers all the weaknesses in the Tau star, i.e. Mobility and Psychic Defence, and gives them a huge counter to re-rollstars like Pinkstar and Seer Council.
Deldar is kind of a misnomer- they're both Eldar. Only mon'keighs call them... Dark Eldar. Heck, only people outside the 40k universe call them Dark Eldar. Everyone else (themselves included) just considers them to be Eldar.
Yes the conceal gives a 5+ cover. The then stacks with shrouding and stealth. Making the 2+ cover save. Then fortune from eldrad gives them the re-roll to save. The list is seriously resilient. Still haven't decided if it should run plasma or missle for the commander. They ignore cover for all shooting. Have hit and run. The neurochip can help with counter attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn, or tank hunter. Ide like to see this list vs Paladin star. I seriously think it eats it for lunch. The toughest match-up for this list would probably be the tau.
All the paladins have to do is get into CC with the units and then the Guard will crumble underneath the weight of the pally star. Also no need for Eldrad, just a Farseer or two.
They can re-roll the saves and if they survive one turn they can hit and run and shoot the pally star again.
4++
3 x 3++
5++
2+ armor on the commander so he can eat the non ap2 saves if you wanted.
Skip wrote: First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread
And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...
Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army
Yes, an attached SM Librarian covers all the weaknesses in the Tau star, i.e. Mobility and Psychic Defence, and gives them a huge counter to re-rollstars like Pinkstar and Seer Council.
Deldar is kind of a misnomer- they're both Eldar. Only mon'keighs call them... Dark Eldar. Heck, only people outside the 40k universe call them Dark Eldar. Everyone else (themselves included) just considers them to be Eldar.
How many points is he? it sounds like the star would have to drop 2 suits? 3? to fit him under 1000pts for this exercise....and i dunno if that is worth it.
Skip wrote: First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread
And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...
Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army
Yes, an attached SM Librarian covers all the weaknesses in the Tau star, i.e. Mobility and Psychic Defence, and gives them a huge counter to re-rollstars like Pinkstar and Seer Council.
Deldar is kind of a misnomer- they're both Eldar. Only mon'keighs call them... Dark Eldar. Heck, only people outside the 40k universe call them Dark Eldar. Everyone else (themselves included) just considers them to be Eldar.
I dont think you can jump in the assault phase with a libby attached to the tau squad that would be the only draw back but having ATSKNF is huge for such a expensive squad
Game #7 - Rematch - Farsight-Bomb Tau vs Seer Council Deldar
In the previous matchup between the two, the Deldar Seer Council seriously whipped Farsight's deathstar. However, going into that game, the Farsight Bomb was at 2-0 and the Seer Council at 1-1. Now they are both at 2-1 and tied for 1st. This rematch will determine who is the winner in this tournament of the deathstars.
For the seer council battles, I played against my friend and local Deldar expert, Grant (aka SonsofGrant here on dakka). His seer council is much feared in our area. So far I have played against them 4 times and I can honestly say that I hate Eldar, I hate Rues of Warding and I hate the seer council.
BTW, congrats to Grant for recently winning in our local RTT with his 1750 Double Trouble Beastpack Deer Council Dual Deathstar Deldar army. Grant, enjoy it while you still can, because in a few weeks when you get a new codex, your seer council will be history.
1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau
I changed up this list slightly. I've swapped out the Neuroweb Jammer and Target Lock on 1 suit for a Drone Controller. I think this will actually improve the list by making the drones better shooters.
While deldar psychic powers aren't really all that great, they hit the mother lode with possibly the best Warlord Trait they can get in this game and against Tau. Now they are forcing the Farsight Bomb to test on the gun drone's LD 7!!! Man, this is going to be a very dangerous game for Tau. Every morale test they are forced to make, they are in danger of falling back or getting swept. Almost makes me wish I didn't have any gun drones in the deathstar. All it takes is 1 turn of combat for deldar and it can very well be game over.
I will be playing the Farsight Bomb in this rematch and with 1 game against the Seer Council (with Tau) under my belt, you can bet that I will be more dangerous and more cunning than ever. No, this time I have a game plan and I am fully confident my Tau with be triumphant. I am somewhat concerned about his Warlord trait, but a true deathstar can and will fight through any and all adversities....or get tabled trying. If he thinks Farsight is going to be the pushover that he was in Game #6, I think my opponent's going to be in for a rude awakening.
I move towards my opponent to try to get as many missile pods in range as possible. 1 suit takes 1W to dangerous terrain.
There are many of those who think plasma/plasma is the way to go for their crisis suits. I much prefer plasma/missiles as the most versatile load-out for the crisis suits (also known as the Tau Fireknife suit).
Despite causing 5-6 wounds with my shooting and no Fortune, my opponent only fails 1 save. Darn. I was hoping to kill at least 2 suits with my twin-linked, cover-ignoring shots.
VP's - Deldar: 34, Tau: 45
Now I'm going to show you my strategy. At this point, most people would normally get away from the seer council by jumping away. I, on the other hand, jump 16" towards my enemies.
Deldar 1
Farseers cast their powers.
His council moves up 12" towards my unit.
And then turbo-boosts right up in my face.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Tau 2
Now I start to back-pedal. BTW, I am actually under the Landing Pad right now.
The Puretide suit makes the unit Stubborn. I twin-link my guns and choose to ignore his cover saves (would do this every time I shoot).
Hello!!!!! Much better this turn as I shoot down 5 warlocks.
I then jump back 11".
VP's - Deldar: 34, Tau: 310
Deldar 2
This turn he casts Terrify on Farsight's unit instead of Invisibility on himself. Fortunately, I am outside of his 12" Lowest-LD bubble and pass morale. Deldar then advances 12".
No shooting as he doesn't want to take himself out of assault range. Currently, he is maybe 8" away.
He then declares his charge. My Overwatch kills 2 guys, including his Invisible Farseer!!! However, his Warlord (with Fortune is still alive).
Now he needs to make a 9" charge....
....and he just makes it!
In assault, he kills 4 gun drones. I fail to get through his Fortuned saves. Fortunately, I am stubborn. However, I am taking Morale on my LD 7 drones!
I fail!!!
Fortunately, he fails to sweep me and I just fall back.
VP's - Deldar: 82, Tau: 590
Crap....I will be taking LD tests on LD 7 from hereonafter. Not good.....
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Tau 3
I failed my LD again on box-cars!!!
Here we have a slight dispute on the fallback distance. I know jumppack infantry fall back 3D6", but what about jetpacks? There were 2 Tau players there and both of them agree that it was 2D6" fall back.
So we played it as 2D6". Good thing too, because my unit would have ran off the board had it been 3D6"!
Despite snap-firing, I kill off 2 guys and put 2W on his Warlord. More importantly, I insta-gib his the Baron as he failed 2 2++ save!!!
But sh*t....I'm still falling back, with a 50/50 chance to regroup only.
VP's - Deldar: 82, Tau: 808
Deldar 3
The seer council gets ready to assault. He's hoping he can destroy me with his charge, as I would have to take another LD test again.
He charges. I pass Morale!!!
This time, however, I only kill 1 biker with my Overwatch.
I challenge his farseer with Farsight.
He manages to put 1W on Farsight. Despite all my attacks, I fail to penetrate his Fortuned armour.
Oh crap....the moment of truth. I roll for Morale. I am stubborn at LD 7.
I fail!!!
This time I am not so lucky. We both roll a 4 on our Initiative tests and that unit of 2 guys sweep the entire Farsight bomb.
I had it!!! Then I lost it. Then I had it again!!! Then I lost it again. What a roller-coaster up-&-down ride of a game. I can't believe that with only 2 guys left....and only having killed 82 VP's of my Tau deathstar (whereas I killed 800+ VP's of his seer council!)....my opponent still takes the game!!! That Warlord trait of his was HUGE! He actually could have won sooner (in the 1st combat) had he not rolled so low on his Initiative test (he rolled a 2 with his I7 Baron against my 5 with the I5 Farsight). But still, if not for his Warlord trait, I would have passed all the Morale tests except one (the one where I rolled double 6's). Actually, just by passing the first one, I would have Hit-&-Run out of combat and potentially finished off his seer council with my shooting. Instead I failed 3 of 4 LD 7 Morale tests.
But I must congratulate my opponent for a great comeback. He played it right, banking on forcing me to take LD tests even though I was obliterating his army. I guess he had no choice....it was an act of sheer desperation but, man, did it pay off big time. He had no chance otherwise except to try to engage me in combat! That last combat, his last warlock passed about 5-6 saves! Fail even 1 and I would have had the game. Then again, I'm surprised he only lost 1 guy to my Overwatch....his saves were clutch in the end. No doubt about it, Fortune is one of the best powers in the game.
So we end the tournament with the following:
1st - Deldar.....3-1.....3000 VP's
2nd - Tau.....2-2.....3291 VP's
3rd - Grey Knights.....1-2.....1970VP's
4th - Daemons.....1-2.....1196VP's
Coming up later, a more in-depth analysis of the tournament in the Post-Tournament Wrap-up .
Skip wrote: First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread
And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...
Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army
Yes, an attached SM Librarian covers all the weaknesses in the Tau star, i.e. Mobility and Psychic Defence, and gives them a huge counter to re-rollstars like Pinkstar and Seer Council.
Deldar is kind of a misnomer- they're both Eldar. Only mon'keighs call them... Dark Eldar. Heck, only people outside the 40k universe call them Dark Eldar. Everyone else (themselves included) just considers them to be Eldar.
I dont think you can jump in the assault phase with a libby attached to the tau squad that would be the only draw back but having ATSKNF is huge for such a expensive squad
their are no libbys with jump packs? that would solve this right up!!
Skip wrote: First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread
And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...
Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army
Yes, an attached SM Librarian covers all the weaknesses in the Tau star, i.e. Mobility and Psychic Defence, and gives them a huge counter to re-rollstars like Pinkstar and Seer Council.
Deldar is kind of a misnomer- they're both Eldar. Only mon'keighs call them... Dark Eldar. Heck, only people outside the 40k universe call them Dark Eldar. Everyone else (themselves included) just considers them to be Eldar.
I dont think you can jump in the assault phase with a libby attached to the tau squad that would be the only draw back but having ATSKNF is huge for such a expensive squad
their are no libbys with jump packs? that would solve this right up!!
maybe a farseer?
Only jet pack units can move in assault phase, not jump packs. Farseer wouldnt make the deathstar fearless or stop them being run down
I guess that it makes sense to go for the 1/3 chance of an instant win by killing Shadowsun and hoping the rest of the tau deathstar doesn't come in but I would think that the Ravenwing would have done better to not shoot Shadowsun and try to assault but not kill her. That way on the 2/3 chance Farsight and company come in they can't shoot. RW can then kill Shadowsun or HnR out after Farsight is on the table so at least the deep strike card has been played.
Well maybe it won't matter depending on the Ld roll. Can't wait to see how it comes out.
How did the character scout Jim? (if I read that correctly.....)
Was quite close really if hit and run had passed I think the tau would have won this, cant say the DA deathstar worries me at all or would be a good addition in any game
Nice to see my RW (clad in heretic's clothing) maintain their winning streak despite being proxied thousands of miles away
Deep Striking the Tau was quite unexpected, but it was either that or heavy turn one casualties.
MarkyMark wrote: How did the character scout Jim? (if I read that correctly.....)
Was quite close really if hit and run had passed I think the tau would have won this, cant say the DA deathstar worries me at all or would be a good addition in any game
Scout is a unit-based USR that has no limitation on Characters, unlike Infiltrate.
It's kind of an anti-Deathstar Deathstar, but it functions much better as separate units so there's really no point taking it in any game.
ptlangley wrote: I guess that it makes sense to go for the 1/3 chance of an instant win by killing Shadowsun and hoping the rest of the tau deathstar doesn't come in but I would think that the Ravenwing would have done better to not shoot Shadowsun and try to assault but not kill her. That way on the 2/3 chance Farsight and company come in they can't shoot. RW can then kill Shadowsun or HnR out after Farsight is on the table so at least the deep strike card has been played.
Well maybe it won't matter depending on the Ld roll. Can't wait to see how it comes out.
That is definitely a viable tactic, though the chances of her surviving an assault from a deathstar is slim to none.
MarkyMark wrote: How did the character scout Jim? (if I read that correctly.....)
Was quite close really if hit and run had passed I think the tau would have won this, cant say the DA deathstar worries me at all or would be a good addition in any game
I might be wrong, and I don't have my rulebook with me to look up right now, but I was under the impression that the characters could scout with the unit. I'll look it up when I get back unless someone can help quote the appropriate rules for Scout here.
The Ravenstar has decent offense. Where it suffers is its resiliency. It isn't nearly as survivable as the other deathstars here, though it isn't too bad if Sevrin can get Invisibility (assuming he can even get Telepathy at all). T5 with 3+ and even 5+ FNP will fall to weight-of-fire.
Theorius wrote: That was not good tau tactics...NEVER DEEP STRIKE, the turn 1 shooting the. Jump 3d6 would have made the gap needed...sighs...
Regardless the failed overwatch AND the failed hit and run was the icing on the cake!!
JY2!!
Why are you using target lock instead of advanced targeting? Or the one that does overwatch at bs2?
Also drone controller can go on the command suit, his only hard point is vector thruster
I don't think you realize just how dangerous the Ravenstar is. They are going first and they can ignore cover with Perfect Timing. Farsight's unit is huge and they don't really have a large LOS-blocking terrain to hide behind (Ravenstar chose the side for Tau where it would be harder to hide behind LOS-blocking terrain). So that's 12" scout + 12" move + 18" range = 42" range. Then they're firing 16 twin-linked plasma shots which will probably insta-kill the suits due to Rad Grenades reducing Toughness by 1....and most likely without cover! The only way for Tau to avoid the Ravenstar alpha strike is to deploy entire outside their threat range....but that would probably take them out of their shooting range as well (except perhaps for a few missiles).
Any ways you put it, this match isn't really favorable for Tau unless they can get their alpha-strike first.
I like to build my deathstars as balanced, all-comer's deathstars. Thus, if you take this deathstar and put it in a regular Tau army, it would be able to function without making any changes to it. Hence, the target locks are there because they would be a necessity if the Farsight Bomb was actually in a real Tau army. Basically, I don't like to tailor my deathstars. Take any of my deathstars and put it in an existing army and they will function just fine.
I will update one of the bodyguards with a drone controller for future battles.
Nice to see my RW (clad in heretic's clothing) maintain their winning streak despite being proxied thousands of miles away
Deep Striking the Tau was quite unexpected, but it was either that or heavy turn one casualties.
MarkyMark wrote: How did the character scout Jim? (if I read that correctly.....)
Was quite close really if hit and run had passed I think the tau would have won this, cant say the DA deathstar worries me at all or would be a good addition in any game
Scout is a unit-based USR that has no limitation on Characters, unlike Infiltrate.
It's kind of an anti-Deathstar Deathstar, but it functions much better as separate units so there's really no point taking it in any game.
I just might have to kick it's (your deathstar's) butt with another deathstar (think pink ). It performed admirably in this game, but only by getting the right psychic power (Perfect Timing) and with a little help from the dice. They won't be so lucky next time.
Yes Jy2 try the pink star!, they dont care if they are t2! (or 1 even).
Chris is correct, units with at least one model with scout can scout. Never relised this before!
Perfectiming timing and misfortune would be very nice against the RW - star, still they have a 4 plus DTW against the squad and 5+ against the LoC heralds
Shame i dont have a table at mine (yet) I have all the correct models painted and ready to go to do this bat rep :(
Dash2021 wrote: Everything is going as planned *rubs hands together*
Realistically, if Deldar get misfortune (high likely hood), this becomes a difficult matchup for Tau. As Jy2 has pointed out several times now, all the Eldar player has to do is deploy out of first turn shooting range of the Tau and Eldar only have to endure one turn of fire before getting in combat.
Assuming all the Eldar players powers go off, and this is a pretty safe bet as Eldar psykers are possibly the most reliable in the game and Tau can only deny on a 6, Eldar can dish out a lot of wounds. In turn your opponent has to roll a bucket load of dice to save. Once in combat, precision strikes can be used to play a conservative game (take out H&R) or go for the throat (allocate to Stubborn model and try to run down). People tend to underestemate how much dmg the council can put out in HtH due to the lack of AP on their weapons. However between Doom, Prescience, and Misfortune you end up drowning your opponent in dice. Even against 2+ armor, the council's 40 attacks would put out 9-10 unsaved wounds.
All in all, the Seer Council just has the tools to get the job done against Tau. 80/20 odds favoring Eldar IMHO. Only deathstars that give the council problems have a combination of multi-wound, FNP, or 2+. Paladins have all of those so, ignoring everything else that can be said about the the two games showcased here, it's a bad matchup for the council. To win the Deldar have to play perfectly, with a lot of breaks going their way. Paladins, on the other hand, can win handily rolling just below avg. Council vs. Nob bikers would be nearly as bad.
As has already been said, deathstars are a paper -rock- scissors affair. They become truly nasty when you attach an army that compliments their weakness.
I'd probably go 60/40 for deldar but that's because I'm an optimist. After having some experience against them, I think I have a strategy in mind for the rematch (Farsight vs the Seer Council).
Yeah, there is an element of rock-paper-scissors to most of these deathstars. That is because they tend to over-emphasize a particular phase (i.e. shooting for Tau and the Pinkstar, shooting and assault for Draigowing and assault + mobility for the seer council) but can be exploited where they are weakest (Draigowing is slow, Pinkstar can be beaten in assault and is too reliant on psychic powers, Tau is weak in assault, seer council have weak shooting and problems against 2+ units).
Skip wrote: First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread
And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...
Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army
You're welcome.
The SM librarian actually complements the Tau deathstar well. He gives them psychic defense, some good psychic buffs and excellent mobility. My only issue is that I think they may lose their assault move jump, which I think may be a better tactical option. ATSKNF is nice, but you are also going to have to give up some firepower in the form of 1 suit and some drones to fit him in. This build may require some playtesting.
For the purposes of these deathstar battles, scoring units aren't necessarily, though they would be nice to have in a real game.
Theorius wrote: That was not good tau tactics...NEVER DEEP STRIKE, the turn 1 shooting the. Jump 3d6 would have made the gap needed...sighs...
Regardless the failed overwatch AND the failed hit and run was the icing on the cake!!
JY2!!
Why are you using target lock instead of advanced targeting? Or the one that does overwatch at bs2?
Also drone controller can go on the command suit, his only hard point is vector thruster
I don't think you realize just how dangerous the Ravenstar is. They are going first and they can ignore cover with Perfect Timing. Farsight's unit is huge and they don't really have a large LOS-blocking terrain to hide behind (Ravenstar chose the side for Tau where it would be harder to hide behind LOS-blocking terrain). So that's 12" scout + 12" move + 18" range = 42" range. Then they're firing 16 twin-linked plasma shots which will probably insta-kill the suits due to Rad Grenades reducing Toughness by 1....and most likely without cover! The only way for Tau to avoid the Ravenstar alpha strike is to deploy entire outside their threat range....but that would probably take them out of their shooting range as well (except perhaps for a few missiles).
Any ways you put it, this match isn't really favorable for Tau unless they can get their alpha-strike first.
I like to build my deathstars as balanced, all-comer's deathstars. Thus, if you take this deathstar and put it in a regular Tau army, it would be able to function without making any changes to it. Hence, the target locks are there because they would be a necessity if the Farsight Bomb was actually in a real Tau army. Basically, I don't like to tailor my deathstars. Take any of my deathstars and put it in an existing army and they will function just fine.
I will update one of the bodyguards with a drone controller for future battles.
Nice to see my RW (clad in heretic's clothing) maintain their winning streak despite being proxied thousands of miles away
Deep Striking the Tau was quite unexpected, but it was either that or heavy turn one casualties.
MarkyMark wrote: How did the character scout Jim? (if I read that correctly.....)
Was quite close really if hit and run had passed I think the tau would have won this, cant say the DA deathstar worries me at all or would be a good addition in any game
Automatically Appended Next Post: Awww i stand to your wisdom on deep striking, sounds like it was super viable.
I personally agree 100% on the take all comers approuch, but the way some of these stars have been going they are not take all comers. Like that raven star is that REALLY a take all comers star? or one tooled to defeat other deathstars and would never see battle.
Part of the issue is i think the 1000k approuch (with i agree 100%) but tau are optimal at 1000, some of the other stars would work with less, and not take tons of these bells and whistles you are needing to throw in to get to 1k
any who!
great fight regardless! and thank you for your efforts logging all this stuff and answering all these questions!
Yes the conceal gives a 5+ cover. The then stacks with shrouding and stealth. Making the 2+ cover save. Then fortune from eldrad gives them the re-roll to save. The list is seriously resilient. Still haven't decided if it should run plasma or missle for the commander. They ignore cover for all shooting. Have hit and run. The neurochip can help with counter attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn, or tank hunter. Ide like to see this list vs Paladin star. I seriously think it eats it for lunch. The toughest match-up for this list would probably be the tau.
Ide like to see how this list does against the palistar. I think that would be its toughest match-up of all the deathstars listed. Could we get that match-up?
ptlangley wrote: I guess that it makes sense to go for the 1/3 chance of an instant win by killing Shadowsun and hoping the rest of the tau deathstar doesn't come in but I would think that the Ravenwing would have done better to not shoot Shadowsun and try to assault but not kill her. That way on the 2/3 chance Farsight and company come in they can't shoot. RW can then kill Shadowsun or HnR out after Farsight is on the table so at least the deep strike card has been played.
Well maybe it won't matter depending on the Ld roll. Can't wait to see how it comes out.
That is definitely a viable tactic, though the chances of her surviving an assault from a deathstar is slim to none.
I think you could hold the bulk of the bikes further out to make sure only a handful of bikes make it into the initial assault and then holster your corvus hammers for the first round of assault. If there is a challenge you could accept and fight with a judo chop and bolt pistol for the first round. Save the force weapon for the next round or HnR if you can't get the job done in the second round. Plus you would have "Moral Support" so you should get 2 rerolls which you could use to try to fail to wound the first round. I don't think it would be that hard to keep her alive for one round.
The question would be what does farsight do, I presume he would deepstrike far away so that the ravenstar couldn't attack outright the next turn. So then it becomes a question of can the bikes close the gap before the the tau guns take them down. I expect they could.
Yes the conceal gives a 5+ cover. The then stacks with shrouding and stealth. Making the 2+ cover save. Then fortune from eldrad gives them the re-roll to save. The list is seriously resilient. Still haven't decided if it should run plasma or missle for the commander. They ignore cover for all shooting. Have hit and run. The neurochip can help with counter attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn, or tank hunter. Ide like to see this list vs Paladin star. I seriously think it eats it for lunch. The toughest match-up for this list would probably be the tau.
Ide like to see how this list does against the palistar. I think that would be its toughest match-up of all the deathstars listed. Could we get that match-up?
Strange, I thought I replied to this. In any case, I've added this battle to my queue - Wraithstar Taudar vs Paladinstar Grey Knights.
I don't have any of the eldar models for this battle, so expect to see some proxies.
I think you could hold the bulk of the bikes further out to make sure only a handful of bikes make it into the initial assault and then holster your corvus hammers for the first round of assault. If there is a challenge you could accept and fight with a judo chop and bolt pistol for the first round. Save the force weapon for the next round or HnR if you can't get the job done in the second round. Plus you would have "Moral Support" so you should get 2 rerolls which you could use to try to fail to wound the first round. I don't think it would be that hard to keep her alive for one round.
The question would be what does farsight do, I presume he would deepstrike far away so that the ravenstar couldn't attack outright the next turn. So then it becomes a question of can the bikes close the gap before the the tau guns take them down. I expect they could.
Everything your saying is valid and very tactically astute, so don't take my next sentence as an insult. I literally laughed out loud reading your strategy for keeping your opponent alive. The idea of hitting someone with a pistol and being so motivated by your friends that it makes you miss is awesome. Keep in mind, she's a unit of one, you can challenge and she HAS to accept. That's the way to go.
"Azreal: You are amazing.
Shadowsun: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Azreal: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
Shadowsun: Tell me.
Azreal: I'm not left-handed either."
"Azreal: You are amazing.
Shadowsun: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Azreal: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
Shadowsun: Tell me.
Azreal: I'm not left-handed either."
I don't really know what the normal criteria for an exalt is, but that more than met my standards...
"Azreal: You are amazing.
Shadowsun: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Azreal: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
Shadowsun: Tell me.
Azreal: I'm not left-handed either."
i laughed out loud so hard my cat jumped 5 feet, LOVE IT!!
I just had an EPIC Game #7 Rematch between Farsight Tau and Seer Council Eldar.....it was definitely the most exciting game of the series that I've played so far. We also had an audience watching during the game as most of my friends there have been following this thread as well. It was definitely a very good conclusion to the series, with one of us literally jumping for joy afterwards.
You have got to read the report when it comes out. But first, 1 more Bonus Deathmatch before the finale.
I also got in an actual game with my Pinkstar army against a Farsight Bomb Tau/Necron list.
I ran:
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater/1x Lesser Gift
4x Tzeentch Heralds - All Lvl 3, Grimoire, Portaglyph, 2x Conjuration Loci
2x20 Horrors
20x Seekers
2x Slaanesh Soulgrinders - Torrent
He ran:
Farsight
Shadowsun
5x Bodyguards with different load-outs, 10x gun drones
Necron Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS
Riptide - Ion Accelerator, TL-Fusion, Overwatch-wargear
3 units of fire warriors
6x Necron Warriors - Night Scythe
6x Pathfinders
4x Wraiths
I didn't do a battle report for this because it ended prematurely, but I had everything going for my daemons. I got 4+ FNP and 3+ for my LoC with Precognition and Misfortune. The Heralds got 2x Perfect Timing, Misfortune and 2x Forewarning. I mean, I couldn't ask for any better powers/gifts.
My opponent failed to go first and told me that he has never gone first with his Tau yet. Thus, to give him a fighting chance, I opt to let him go first. He almost killed one of my Heralds on T1 but I manage to survive. I just advance. My LoC did shoot up his pathfinders and caused them to break, though I didn't get First Blood yet.
Then on T2, he focused his entire Farsight deathstar on my Warlord, the LoC. With a re-rollable 3+/4++ (only Forewarning, I used the Grimoire on my seekers) and 4+ FNP, my LoC survived the fire of his deathstar without so much as a scratch. Then before I got to my turn, he conceded because he was looking at assault by seekers with 2++ invuln's, the LoC and both Soulgrinders. And that's not including the shooting of my 2 deathstar horror units (with 2 Heralds and Perfect Timing each). And over 2 turns of shooting, he barely scratched my army!
When daemons are clicking on all 4 cyclinders like they were in our game, they are downright frightening. There is NO army that they can't beat when they are like this. They are also one of the most intimidating armies as well. I think I broke my opponent's spirit just by them not dying.
jy2 wrote: I just had an EPIC Game #7 Rematch between Farsight Tau and Seer Council Eldar.....it was definitely the most exciting game of the series that I've played so far. We also had an audience watching during the game as most of my friends there have been following this thread as well. It was definitely a very good conclusion to the series, with one of us literally jumping for joy afterwards.
You have got to read the report when it comes out. But first, 1 more Bonus Deathmatch before the finale.
I also got in an actual game with my Pinkstar army against a Farsight Bomb Tau/Necron list.
I ran:
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater/1x Lesser Gift
4x Tzeentch Heralds - All Lvl 3, Grimoire, Portaglyph, 2x Conjuration Loci
2x20 Horrors
20x Seekers
2x Slaanesh Soulgrinders - Torrent
He ran:
Farsight
Shadowsun
5x Bodyguards with different load-outs, 10x gun drones
Necron Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS
Riptide - Ion Accelerator, TL-Fusion, Overwatch-wargear
3 units of fire warriors
6x Necron Warriors - Night Scythe
6x Pathfinders
4x Wraiths
I didn't do a battle report for this because it ended prematurely, but I had everything going for my daemons. I got 4+ FNP and 3+ for my LoC with Precognition and Misfortune. The Heralds got 2x Perfect Timing, Misfortune and 2x Forewarning. I mean, I couldn't ask for any better powers/gifts.
My opponent failed to go first and told me that he has never gone first with his Tau yet. Thus, to give him a fighting chance, I opt to let him go first. He almost killed one of my Heralds on T1 but I manage to survive. I just advance. My LoC did shoot up his pathfinders and caused them to break, though I didn't get First Blood yet.
Then on T2, he focused his entire Farsight deathstar on my Warlord, the LoC. With a re-rollable 3+/4++ (only Forewarning, I used the Grimoire on my seekers) and 4+ FNP, my LoC survived the fire of his deathstar without so much as a scratch. Then before I got to my turn, he conceded because he was looking at assault by seekers with 2++ invuln's, the LoC and both Soulgrinders. And that's not including the shooting of my 2 deathstar horror units (with 2 Heralds and Perfect Timing each). And over 2 turns of shooting, he barely scratched my army!
When daemons are clicking on all 4 cyclinders like they were in our game, they are downright frightening. There is NO army that they can't beat when they are like this. They are also one of the most intimidating armies as well. I think I broke my opponent's spirit just by them not dying.
awesome!!! cant wait, wish i was there but i got sick this week :( would have been cool to see the final battle!!!!
as a side note....have you remembered to use the nueral web jammer? or is it just not doing alot due to the saves of most deathstars?
they GOT to be nerfing that grimoire soon i suspect? yes no?
I actually had to drop out 1 Target Lock and the Neural Jammer in order to fit in the Drone Controller. But it didn't matter as Eldar didn't really fire a shot. They just went straight for assault.
No, the Grimoire isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon. There's a 1/3 chance it will fail and when it does, daemons are probably going to lose that unit. Over the course of 1 game, you're going to fail 1 or 2 times and it'll probably be when you need it to work the most.
jy2 wrote: I actually had to drop out 1 Target Lock and the Neural Jammer in order to fit in the Drone Controller. But it didn't matter as Eldar didn't really fire a shot. They just went straight for assault.
No, the Grimoire isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon. There's a 1/3 chance it will fail and when it does, daemons are probably going to lose that unit. Over the course of 1 game, you're going to fail 1 or 2 times and it'll probably be when you need it to work the most.
The guy in my meta who runs Demons runs them with Fateweaver for that very reason (well, and the Warp Storm reroll). He essentially never loses Grimoire, although he runs it on Hounds rather than Seekers. Or, if he wants to tie up something scary, on Fateweever (making him immortal). It's extremely brutal. His list is entirely different than yours, and almost as scary to play against (it lacks the pure damage output, but imo it's more reliable), which I think is a sign of a codex with good internal balance.
jy2 wrote: I actually had to drop out 1 Target Lock and the Neural Jammer in order to fit in the Drone Controller. But it didn't matter as Eldar didn't really fire a shot. They just went straight for assault.
No, the Grimoire isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon. There's a 1/3 chance it will fail and when it does, daemons are probably going to lose that unit. Over the course of 1 game, you're going to fail 1 or 2 times and it'll probably be when you need it to work the most.
i personally thing 40k is lessened by these units with 2+ rerollable, it breaks the game. 3+ rerollable should be the best anything should be able to get RELIABLY
When a 400-500 point unit (your pink star) can weather 1000 pts of shooting from say a tau deathstar and lose barely anything....there is a problem. HECK you could buy a MINIMUM horror/seeker unit with no bells and whistles and it could survive 1k of tau shooting from the deathstar.
If the guy with the grimoire couldnt be in the unit he buffs then maybe, or he had to take a save or suffer a wound....needs some drawback a 1/3rd chance of failure is not enough.
I personally am HOPING they dont let it stack with the other invuln buffer thingy.
"Azreal: You are amazing.
Shadowsun: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Azreal: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
Shadowsun: Tell me.
Azreal: I'm not left-handed either."
jy2 wrote: I actually had to drop out 1 Target Lock and the Neural Jammer in order to fit in the Drone Controller. But it didn't matter as Eldar didn't really fire a shot. They just went straight for assault.
No, the Grimoire isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon. There's a 1/3 chance it will fail and when it does, daemons are probably going to lose that unit. Over the course of 1 game, you're going to fail 1 or 2 times and it'll probably be when you need it to work the most.
The guy in my meta who runs Demons runs them with Fateweaver for that very reason (well, and the Warp Storm reroll). He essentially never loses Grimoire, although he runs it on Hounds rather than Seekers. Or, if he wants to tie up something scary, on Fateweever (making him immortal). It's extremely brutal. His list is entirely different than yours, and almost as scary to play against (it lacks the pure damage output, but imo it's more reliable), which I think is a sign of a codex with good internal balance.
I've tried Fateweaver in a few games before and I must say that I am less than impressed with him. That probably is just due to my playstyle, however. I prefer an army in which all my expensive units are also big threats as well. Fateweaver is a large force-multiplier....but he really isn't a very scary threat. I much prefer the LoC who is a force multiplier as well as a huge threat (that guy can literally win a game by himself!). Besides, where's the fun in daemons without a bit of randomness? Then they actually become kind of boring.... (Heck, if I want reliability, I'd just play and crush everyone with my necrons. ) No, I prefer daemons with their ups and their downs. That's what makes them so fun and also a challenge to play, at least for me.
jy2 wrote: I actually had to drop out 1 Target Lock and the Neural Jammer in order to fit in the Drone Controller. But it didn't matter as Eldar didn't really fire a shot. They just went straight for assault.
No, the Grimoire isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon. There's a 1/3 chance it will fail and when it does, daemons are probably going to lose that unit. Over the course of 1 game, you're going to fail 1 or 2 times and it'll probably be when you need it to work the most.
i personally thing 40k is lessened by these units with 2+ rerollable, it breaks the game. 3+ rerollable should be the best anything should be able to get RELIABLY
When a 400-500 point unit (your pink star) can weather 1000 pts of shooting from say a tau deathstar and lose barely anything....there is a problem. HECK you could buy a MINIMUM horror/seeker unit with no bells and whistles and it could survive 1k of tau shooting from the deathstar.
If the guy with the grimoire couldnt be in the unit he buffs then maybe, or he had to take a save or suffer a wound....needs some drawback a 1/3rd chance of failure is not enough.
I personally am HOPING they dont let it stack with the other invuln buffer thingy.
just my opinion!
I agree. Re-rollable 2++'s really do break the game. It is just stupid. Fortunately for daemon opponents, they have a 1 in 3 chance of failing and they can only put it on 1 unit. So just go after the units without the Grimoire's protection. Then when the Grimoire fails, go after the unit that is cursed. It's all about target prioritization and that is how you play against daemons.
Honestly, I feel that eldar is even worse. If they get Invisibility, they will be getting re-rollabe 2+ cover and not very many armies can deal with that. Only perhaps 3 armies can handle invisible, fortuned eldar - an army that gets lucky with Perfect Timing (and they still may die to Runes of Warding), Space Wolves with Rune Priests and Tau. For the other armies, you're out of luck as the eldar will get it on very reliably.
I think it would be more fair for the Grimoire to give +1 Inv on a 2+ or +2 Inv on a 4+. After all, you're talking about an army where almost every unit only has a 5++ save and most cover only grants a 5++ save. Otherwise, daemons actually become too fragile almost.
"Azreal: You are amazing.
Shadowsun: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Azreal: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
Shadowsun: Tell me.
Azreal: I'm not left-handed either."
Lol.
Can you really use Moral Support to re-roll successful hits/wounds/saves?
Well done with your game Jy2, we have simular experince and tastes in building our daemon armies, and I do agree when daemons get good dice they are very good, heck on Wednesday I had two daemon princes, non iron armed on the ground survive 3 doom scythes death rays (thats two tests each) thanks to one having 3++ from grimoire and both having re rolling invul's. Turn 4 of that game he had 3 flyers on the board vector struck life leeched and FF'ed all 3 and the last one was down to 1 hull point saved both FF shots and I failed to pen with the life leech shots. Lost 2 heralds and 20 horrors but ended the game with daemon princes and lord of change with no wounds
I do and would still run the 2++ on my 20 horror squad with 2 heralds, why? I do have very weak scoring in my list so I need that solid scoring unit
I did the math mentally. At most, shooting the horrors would have just netted me perhaps 12-14 horror kills or so. Then next turn, Portaglyph would have potentially generated more troops (whom a conjuration Herald with Prescience could have joined anyways) and then the paladins would have gotten charged by the LoC anyways.
At least by killing the Portaglyph, you prevent more troops from coming out of the portal and you get closer to the horrors with essentially a "free" assault move.
It's still 2 evils and hard to say which is the lesser. However, one thing I do know is that getting assaulted by a re-rollable 2++ S8 LoC was going to suck big time no matter what the pallies did.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkyMark wrote: Well done with your game Jy2, we have simular experince and tastes in building our daemon armies, and I do agree when daemons get good dice they are very good, heck on Wednesday I had two daemon princes, non iron armed on the ground survive 3 doom scythes death rays (thats two tests each) thanks to one having 3++ from grimoire and both having re rolling invul's. Turn 4 of that game he had 3 flyers on the board vector struck life leeched and FF'ed all 3 and the last one was down to 1 hull point saved both FF shots and I failed to pen with the life leech shots. Lost 2 heralds and 20 horrors but ended the game with daemon princes and lord of change with no wounds
I do and would still run the 2++ on my 20 horror squad with 2 heralds, why? I do have very weak scoring in my list so I need that solid scoring unit
I prefer to give the 2++ to my fast threats, namely, either my LoC or my 20 seekers. Most people don't really and can't really finish off the pinkstar on Turn 1 (if you deploy them defensively, which I usually do when I am going 2nd). To them, the pinkstar isn't a high priority target compared to the other fast units in the army. I will buff up the Pinkstar if I think they are truly in danger of getting killed. However, that's usually after my opponent has killed my LoC, seekers and probably soulgrinders as well.
I did the math mentally. At most, shooting the horrors would have just netted me perhaps 12-14 horror kills or so. Then next turn, Portaglyph would have potentially generated more troops (whom a conjuration Herald with Prescience could have joined anyways) and then the paladins would have gotten charged by the LoC anyways.
At least by killing the Portaglyph, you prevent more troops from coming out of the portal and you get closer to the horrors with essentially a "free" assault move.
It's still 2 evils and hard to say which is the lesser. However, one thing I do know is that getting assaulted by a re-rollable 2++ S8 LoC was going to suck big time no matter what the pallies did.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkyMark wrote: Well done with your game Jy2, we have simular experince and tastes in building our daemon armies, and I do agree when daemons get good dice they are very good, heck on Wednesday I had two daemon princes, non iron armed on the ground survive 3 doom scythes death rays (thats two tests each) thanks to one having 3++ from grimoire and both having re rolling invul's. Turn 4 of that game he had 3 flyers on the board vector struck life leeched and FF'ed all 3 and the last one was down to 1 hull point saved both FF shots and I failed to pen with the life leech shots. Lost 2 heralds and 20 horrors but ended the game with daemon princes and lord of change with no wounds
I do and would still run the 2++ on my 20 horror squad with 2 heralds, why? I do have very weak scoring in my list so I need that solid scoring unit
I prefer to give the 2++ to my fast threats, namely, either my LoC or my 20 seekers. Most people don't really and can't really finish off the pinkstar on Turn 1 (if you deploy them defensively, which I usually do when I am going 2nd). To them, the pinkstar isn't a high priority target compared to the other fast units in the army. I will buff up the Pinkstar if I think they are truly in danger of getting killed. However, that's usually after my opponent has killed my LoC, seekers and probably soulgrinders as well.
I have 4 BR's in the pipeline. Which would you like to see first?
Pinkstar vs Farsight Tau Rematch
Pinkstar vs Nob Biker Orks
Taudar Wraithstar vs Paladinstar
Game #7 Finale - Seer Council vs Farsight Tau Rematch
Let me know.
Then next week I have a treat for you all. It's a 2K battle between my Pinkstar Daemons vs Janthkin's Slaanesh Daemons + CSM alliance.
I play troop weak with my FMC list, relying on the portalglyph to get me free troops and once opponents know what the pink star can do they do usually try to take them out.
I played a vassal game last night (First time!) and had 2 heralds lvl2 with 20 horrors, looked at a 6 wraith squad with d lord, prescision shot the whip coils out then the d lord tanked 3 shots, two ones in there (didnt get a chance to mention they have misfortune on them!) then 18 odd wounds on the wraiths left saved 12 at first then misfortune re roll killed the rest off!. Opponent was shell shocked
I did the math mentally. At most, shooting the horrors would have just netted me perhaps 12-14 horror kills or so. Then next turn, Portaglyph would have potentially generated more troops (whom a conjuration Herald with Prescience could have joined anyways) and then the paladins would have gotten charged by the LoC anyways.
At least by killing the Portaglyph, you prevent more troops from coming out of the portal and you get closer to the horrors with essentially a "free" assault move.
It's still 2 evils and hard to say which is the lesser. However, one thing I do know is that getting assaulted by a re-rollable 2++ S8 LoC was going to suck big time no matter what the pallies did.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkyMark wrote: Well done with your game Jy2, we have simular experince and tastes in building our daemon armies, and I do agree when daemons get good dice they are very good, heck on Wednesday I had two daemon princes, non iron armed on the ground survive 3 doom scythes death rays (thats two tests each) thanks to one having 3++ from grimoire and both having re rolling invul's. Turn 4 of that game he had 3 flyers on the board vector struck life leeched and FF'ed all 3 and the last one was down to 1 hull point saved both FF shots and I failed to pen with the life leech shots. Lost 2 heralds and 20 horrors but ended the game with daemon princes and lord of change with no wounds
I do and would still run the 2++ on my 20 horror squad with 2 heralds, why? I do have very weak scoring in my list so I need that solid scoring unit
I prefer to give the 2++ to my fast threats, namely, either my LoC or my 20 seekers. Most people don't really and can't really finish off the pinkstar on Turn 1 (if you deploy them defensively, which I usually do when I am going 2nd). To them, the pinkstar isn't a high priority target compared to the other fast units in the army. I will buff up the Pinkstar if I think they are truly in danger of getting killed. However, that's usually after my opponent has killed my LoC, seekers and probably soulgrinders as well.
Just quickly ... what is the best possible save an LoC can get and which psychic powers are being used ? I'm assumming you were casting forewarning on your Lord of change, using the Grimoire on your Lord of Change. Now you have a flying monstrous creature with a 2+ invulnerable save, and he rerolls his 1 because he is Tzeentch. Am I correct?
MarkyMark wrote: I play troop weak with my FMC list, relying on the portalglyph to get me free troops and once opponents know what the pink star can do they do usually try to take them out.
I played a vassal game last night (First time!) and had 2 heralds lvl2 with 20 horrors, looked at a 6 wraith squad with d lord, prescision shot the whip coils out then the d lord tanked 3 shots, two ones in there (didnt get a chance to mention they have misfortune on them!) then 18 odd wounds on the wraiths left saved 12 at first then misfortune re roll killed the rest off!. Opponent was shell shocked
Next week, I'm going to try to bring a slightly more balanced Pinkstar list to battle (with just 3 Heralds).
LoC - Lvl 3, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser
3x Lvl Tzeentch Heralds - Grimoire, Portaglyph, Conjuration (all on different Heralds)
However in 2 weeks the jetseer council will be a totally different animal so I propose you do a re-rematch 2 weeks after the new eldar book releases.
I think I can actually fit in 2 reports in 1 day!
First will be the Taudar Wraithstar vs Paladinstar. And then tonight, the finale.
As for the new seer council, we shall see. Honestly, I don't think they will be as good as they are now.
Pyriel- wrote: LOL Deamon "hunters"?
Must be the lamest name given any army/unit in the entire game.
They might not be able to compete against daemons deathstar-wise, but army-wise I think they can still be evenly matched. However, the unit to probably bring would be psyflemans as they give the knights some psychic protection and can insta-gib many of the daemonic units (as well as deal with soulgrinders). Moreover, they are a good counter-assault unit as they can lock a lot of daemons units in assault - seekers, flesh hounds, bloodcrushers, etc. I think daemons will invigorate the "comeback" of the psyflemans.
felixcat wrote: Just quickly ... what is the best possible save an LoC can get and which psychic powers are being used ?
2++ Re-rollable.
Forewarning for 4++. Grimoire to make it 2++. Then Tzeentch re-roll all rolls of 's on saves.
However, daemons been fortunate to get Precognition on the LoC almost every single game!
Interesting list JY2 ... almost identical to the one i want to test at 1750
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift - 305
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - 150
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - 120
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - 120
Soulgrinder of Slaanesh - Baleful Torrent - 170
Soulgrinder of Slaanesh - Baleful Torrent - 170
At 2000 I'm thinking to add a Tzeentch FMC. Ypou know you read a lot of varying opinions on the net. I hear horrors are unremarkable in most ways (shooting is not all that reliable), LoC is easily grounded and taken out of the game, grinders are not as good as FMCs and Slaanesh are just poor ... etc., etc. Now, not playing daemons as a standalone list I need to test them out after reading all the batreps. I'm suspicious they may indeed be too random. And having to roll each game so many times, sigh.
Coming up next....the Finale, Game #7 Rematch between Tau and the Seer Council for the Championship!
felixcat wrote: Interesting list JY2 ... almost identical to the one i want to test at 1750
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift - 305
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - 150
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - 120
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - 120
Soulgrinder of Slaanesh - Baleful Torrent - 170
Soulgrinder of Slaanesh - Baleful Torrent - 170
At 2000 I'm thinking to add a Tzeentch FMC. Ypou know you read a lot of varying opinions on the net. I hear horrors are unremarkable in most ways (shooting is not all that reliable), LoC is easily grounded and taken out of the game, grinders are not as good as FMCs and Slaanesh are just poor ... etc., etc. Now, not playing daemons as a standalone list I need to test them out after reading all the batreps. I'm suspicious they may indeed be too random. And having to roll each game so many times, sigh.
---- edited spelling/grammar ---
Yeah, that is very close to what I run at 1750 now, though honestly, I've only ran the Pinkstar in an actual game only once. In that game I had 4 Heralds and 2x20 horrors, but I like your 3 Heralds and 3x17 horrors better. I think your list is more balanced.
You should, however, really consider getting the Portaglyph. Nothing beats FREE troops and each pink horror troop unit you spawn generates another 2D6 Flickering Fire shots for your army. I can't stress enough how important the Portaglyph is. Drop some seekers and horrors if you have to, but get that piece of wargear into your army.
Psychic Powers: Dark Excommunication, Sanctuary, Hammerhand.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pyriel- wrote: LOL Deamon "hunters"?
Must be the lamest name given any army/unit in the entire game.
It's true. They aren't really true daemon hunters any more. At least mechanically. Jy2 is right though. With all the psychic powers being flung around you really need that Reinforced Aegis. I also think you need at least one dreadknight to try and combat the MCs.
i dont want eldar nerfed in their new codex, but that spell can go, then they can fix the daemons version.
oh....GO TAU!!!
Yeah, 2++ re-rollable is pretty stupid. Even I've got to admit that. It's probably one of the main things that keeps daemons competitive even in spite of all the randomness in the army.
If eldar keeps Fortune, it won't be fixed because they can still take Invisbility. In order to fix it for eldar, they're probably going to have to change Fortune or drop it entirely.
As for daemons, I don't see it getting "fixed" anytime soon, at least not until the next codex release.
Wow that got close in the end, I think a person over here plays a wraithguard heavy army, and has a unit with farseer and led by the baron for re-rollable 2++ with T6 majority its hard to crack.
Not to familiar on eldar, how do they get a 2+ cover save?
tuiman wrote: Wow that got close in the end, I think a person over here plays a wraithguard heavy army, and has a unit with farseer and led by the baron for re-rollable 2++ with T6 majority its hard to crack.
Not to familiar on eldar, how do they get a 2+ cover save?
Conceal warlock gives a 5+ cover save. Invisibility improves that with Stealth/Shrouded.
They might not be able to compete against daemons deathstar-wise, but army-wise I think they can still be evenly matched. However, the unit to probably bring would be psyflemans as they give the knights some psychic protection and can insta-gib many of the daemonic units (as well as deal with soulgrinders). Moreover, they are a good counter-assault unit as they can lock a lot of daemons units in assault - seekers, flesh hounds, bloodcrushers, etc. I think daemons will invigorate the "comeback" of the psyflemans.
Hmm, I wasnt aware that psyflemens were even gone.
Maybe might be worth throwing in a dark excommunication somewhere in the army as well.
Anyway, I am if the opinion that the palistar used in the batreps really isnt the strongest possible but that´s me. I still enjoy the batreps.
tuiman wrote: Wow that got close in the end, I think a person over here plays a wraithguard heavy army, and has a unit with farseer and led by the baron for re-rollable 2++ with T6 majority its hard to crack.
Not to familiar on eldar, how do they get a 2+ cover save?
Conceal warlock gives a 5+ cover save. Invisibility improves that with Stealth/Shrouded.
Yea the list is actually a viable deathstar and I think paladins are its toughest match-up of the ones listed. Imo I wouldn't have separated the hq's there towards the end. It would allowed for a hit and run and a tabling as well as some extra overwatch. That 2+ re-rollable is silly and one of the best ways to counter it... misfortune has to go off on 3d6 with 12+ and double 's being perils. The pinkstar daemons would seriously struggle against this list. Actually Tau might give them trouble I suppose as they have better range.
tuiman wrote: Wow that got close in the end, I think a person over here plays a wraithguard heavy army, and has a unit with farseer and led by the baron for re-rollable 2++ with T6 majority its hard to crack.
Not to familiar on eldar, how do they get a 2+ cover save?
Conceal warlock gives a 5+ cover save. Invisibility improves that with Stealth/Shrouded.
Actually, they don't need Invisibility. Shadowsun gives the unit Stealth/Shrouded. Eldrad has to keep his codex powers for Fortune.
They might not be able to compete against daemons deathstar-wise, but army-wise I think they can still be evenly matched. However, the unit to probably bring would be psyflemans as they give the knights some psychic protection and can insta-gib many of the daemonic units (as well as deal with soulgrinders). Moreover, they are a good counter-assault unit as they can lock a lot of daemons units in assault - seekers, flesh hounds, bloodcrushers, etc. I think daemons will invigorate the "comeback" of the psyflemans.
Hmm, I wasnt aware that psyflemens were even gone.
Maybe might be worth throwing in a dark excommunication somewhere in the army as well.
Anyway, I am if the opinion that the palistar used in the batreps really isnt the strongest possible but that´s me. I still enjoy the batreps.
They've been relegated to 2nd fiddle behind the dreadknight in 6E grey knights. With the shift in meta to more infantry-based armies and also the huge improvement to the dreadknight in 6E, psyflemans are no longer the "must-take" that they used to be in 5th Ed. Nowadays, I see much more dreadknights in GK armies than I do psyflemans, which is a shame really. I still really like the GK dreadnoughts.
Draigo would have definitely done better against this battle due to his ability to tank AP 1/2 shots. Though against the other deathstars, I prefer the shooting and psychic buffs of the GKGM + Coteaz.
Yea the list is actually a viable deathstar and I think paladins are its toughest match-up of the ones listed. Imo I wouldn't have separated the hq's there towards the end. It would allowed for a hit and run and a tabling as well as some extra overwatch. That 2+ re-rollable is silly and one of the best ways to counter it... misfortune has to go off on 3d6 with 12+ and double 's being perils. The pinkstar daemons would seriously struggle against this list. Actually Tau might give them trouble I suppose as they have better range.
Ah.....you're in luck. Just finished a battle between the "mighty" Wraith Bomb against the Pinkstar. But that battle's going to have to wait until after the Finale.
Someone casts forewarning on daemons of Tzeench, and they get buffed by the Grimlore. They get the 4+ from forewarning buffed by 2 from the grimlore to a 2+, and since they re-roll ones, they now have a 2+ re-rollable.
Draigo would have definitely done better against this battle due to his ability to tank AP 1/2 shots. Though against the other deathstars, I prefer the shooting and psychic buffs of the GKGM + Coteaz.
I have tried GK deathstars in many, many games and my opinion is that a generally nothing beats a librarian and coteaz.
I too like the dreadknight, to bad the upgrades are to expensive to ever be used.
This multi part question is for jy2 but anyone else please free to answer...
It seems like daemons are now tending to be even more random. That is what I've observed reading lots of Batreps. At a GT it just seems like there is a good chance they'll have at least one proverbial bad dice game.
So first do you think the new daemons (pure) can win a big competitive event like NOVA?
Second what do you do to minimize the randomness?
Finally do you think they would be a better choice as an ally? That's what I am currently thinking.
Dozer Blades wrote: This multi part question is for jy2 but anyone else please free to answer...
It seems like daemons are now tending to be even more random. That is what I've observed reading lots of Batreps. At a GT it just seems like there is a good chance they'll have at least one proverbial bad dice game.
So first do you think the new daemons (pure) can win a big competitive event like NOVA?
Second what do you do to minimize the randomness?
Finally do you think they would be a better choice as an ally? That's what I am currently thinking.
I think Fateweaver offsets the randomnness well, and he turns the Warp Storm into a weapon. Nearly every result you get is going to be bad for your opponent. Plus he puts your chance at successfully executing the Grimoire at over 85% and is invaluable for passing grounding tests. Think about how many games come down to one "must roll" Well, with FW you can control that "must roll" every player turn. It's huge. Plus, he's not exactly bad at shooting or buffing, and in a pinch can be an excellent tarpit (he is immortal with the Grimoire) I've had FW used against me to great effect, and he will definitely be in my Demons "travel" list.
As an allie you lose the Warp Storm, which is good and bad. I know playing against Demons with FW, it usually hurts me far more than it does the Demon.
IMO daemons wont win a major GT unless the dice are crazy good for them. There is just too much randomness for them to stay consistent. If you wanna run them I would run them as a primary force so you can make use of the heralds. In addition, FW is an auto include for any competitive list. If you dont think so then roll a 4 on the warp storm table twice in a row and fell the grimiore. Good luck winning after all of that.
I think if Draigoless wing had just punched on forwards it would have been a massacre. Wraithdar are great till they get in combat. Even with half a squad the pally's nearly destroyed em. Here's hoping that the new codex fixes the greatest weakness of the eldar codex: a bunch of dumb #*%# 12" weapons on units that have no business being near CC.
As for the rematch Council/Farbomb. It's over. 7 warlocks in one turn ended it. Unless grant goes red hot on saves (and mathematically he shouldn't) he'll die in the next turn. It was a good gambit to try and sweep the tau, but it didn't work (even with I7 baron? Bad luck). If some how he survives, and gets Terrify off/ survives over watch he gets one more chance to sweep. I'm not holding my breath though (...but spamming F5 may not be out of the question).
Blegh...something about that Farsight Bomb vs Seer Council rematch upsets me.
The game would have been a massacre if the Council got ANY other warlord trait. Not to mention that failing 3 out of 4 Ld 7 tests is pretty unlikely anyway...almost a 60% chance to pass. (plus the council making that 9" charge, plus taking 0 casualties in two rounds of combat, plus only losing a single biker to all those missiles, etc )
Either way, I don't know if I would call that a crushing victory. The Tau may have been tabled, but the Eldar deathstar only had 2 wounds left.
Siphen wrote: Blegh...something about that Farsight Bomb vs Seer Council rematch upsets me.
The game would have been a massacre if the Council got ANY other warlord trait. Not to mention that failing 3 out of 4 Ld 7 tests is pretty unlikely anyway...almost a 60% chance to pass. (plus the council making that 9" charge, plus taking 0 casualties in two rounds of combat, plus only losing a single biker to all those missiles, etc )
Either way, I don't know if I would call that a crushing victory. The Tau may have been tabled, but the Eldar deathstar only had 2 wounds left.
the power of 4++ and fortune is very evident in this battle. Not to mention the fact as to how dependent we are on fortune. A lot of the people at my LGS despise the sweep rule since they think it is very illogical for so small a unit to take out so many XD. I am with them on this, but Eldar need every rule that works in our favor to win...for now .
After reading all the reports two things stand out to me. First psychic powers are extremely strong. Fortune, prescience, invisible, misfortune etc are all so powerful and are really the glue that holds the death stars together. Which bring me to the second thing that stands out, if your powers fail you are ed. So many of the games came down to getting the right powers, having the power denied, taking a peril of the warp etc. Or going second and not having that power up on the first turn. Fortune is probably the strongest power, it means your baron needs an average of 36 wounds on him to fail his invul save rather than 6. But if you go second you don't get a turn to buff up and are extremely vulnerable. I am not sure how much I like relying on powers that may fail or be denied and leave my army dead.
This is one of the things I like most about the tau star. It does similar things to prescience, perfect timing, invisible without needing to be cast every turn, there is no risk of failing or being denied. Doesn't matter if you go first or second, you just get the power. You don't have to worry if your opponent has runes of warding or ghost helms or anything. Also even though tau star didn't come out on top I do think it is the best deathstar for actual game purposes. Because of target locks you can focus on multiple targets instead of being stuck killing one thing at a time. In your tau vs eldar report you say how you like the fireknife build but I think it is wrong. You are better off having 2 plasma on one suit and 2 missile pods on another than to mix weapons, as in real situations those 2 missiles will be going to light vehicles while the 2 plasma want to be going to elite unites. The tau deathstar's ability to move across the board taking out multiple things at one is where its real power lies and sadly we don't see it here.
Overall, I think this was a fun series. I enjoyed reading ever report was surprised at how strong some of the death stars are (namely demons who I thought were going to be rubbish). Thanks for making these. I hope we can get a tau vs eldar rematch in a few months when the new eldar book comes out.
Good to see the much hyped farsight bomb get beaten! Eldar were very lucky with warlord trait and some of the Tau Ld checks though. Great series of reports jy2.
Draigo would have definitely done better against this battle due to his ability to tank AP 1/2 shots. Though against the other deathstars, I prefer the shooting and psychic buffs of the GKGM + Coteaz.
I have tried GK deathstars in many, many games and my opinion is that a generally nothing beats a librarian and coteaz.
I too like the dreadknight, to bad the upgrades are to expensive to ever be used.
Interesting. I have never even considered that combo. I always felt it more important to take Draigo or a Grandmaster in order to make the paladins scoring, but I like the fact that 2 psykers does make the unit that much more psychically powerful.
ace101 wrote: Is game 7 Hamminators vs Draigoless Draigowing? that would be a good matchup.
I will put that in my queue. Although the tournament is done, I will still be posting the bonus deathmatches.
Or perhaps we just may see some of these deathstars again starring in the Battle of the Deathstars Part II.....
felixcat wrote: Do you think overall that daemons can beat a tau-bomb list at 1750+
Without a doubt, yes. Daemons are one of the toughest matchups for the Tau. They are super-fast, highly resilient (despite their 5++ only) and don't care about plasmas or having their cover removed. In other words, a lot of the Tau strengths are useless against daemons.
I've played against Tau 3 times with my daemons and, although I lost 2 of them, I really beat myself in those games. Otherwise, I never felt I was out-matched in any of those contests. Rather, it was my opponent who was feeling the pressure. He actually almost conceded in one of those games. If not for a little luck on his part, I could have and should have won all 3.
BTW, he didn't run a full-blown Tau bomb, but rather, a Farsight mini-bomb.
Dozer Blades wrote: This multi part question is for jy2 but anyone else please free to answer...
It seems like daemons are now tending to be even more random. That is what I've observed reading lots of Batreps. At a GT it just seems like there is a good chance they'll have at least one proverbial bad dice game.
So first do you think the new daemons (pure) can win a big competitive event like NOVA?
Second what do you do to minimize the randomness?
Finally do you think they would be a better choice as an ally? That's what I am currently thinking.
Over the long haul, as in a 5-7 game GT, daemons are bound to mess up some of their rolls. Thus, I think the chances for daemons to win a big event like NOVA is small. They have the tools to dominate games (and armies), especially in short stretches. But to dominate consistently, they are going to have to include Fateweaver in their army....and even he isn't a guarantee that they won't have bad dice game. However, after using FW in a few games, I can't say that I am all that impressed with him. I prefer to take my chances with the LoC as I think he is just so powerful. I prefer the trade-off of more and better threats as opposed to a less random game, but that is just my personal taste.
Other than taking Fateweaver, I think you have to build a balanced list to try to minimize the impact of the randomness. Do not rely too much from any single unit. Rather, make each unit more-or-less about equal so that when 1 unit goes down due to bad luck, the rest of the army can still function. That's one of the reasons I don't currently run bloated FMC-spam daemons. It is a powerful and competitive daemon build, but even losing one of those 350-pt Daemon Princes can really bone you. Instead, run some Heralds, add some of their awesome fast attacks and take a few Soulgrinders, which I feel are one of the most versatile and best units in the dex. If you want to over-power your opponent with an unbalanced hammer build, take DP's and watch those armies that can't deal with them struggle. However, when you go up against those armies that can, you will most likely lose. But if you want a more balanced attack, take those grinders instead. They are awesome for their cost.
IMO daemons wont win a major GT unless the dice are crazy good for them. There is just too much randomness for them to stay consistent. If you wanna run them I would run them as a primary force so you can make use of the heralds. In addition, FW is an auto include for any competitive list. If you dont think so then roll a 4 on the warp storm table twice in a row and fell the grimiore. Good luck winning after all of that.
I think it is still too early to tell. FW does make the army more reliable, but to me, he is lacking in other areas. I guess it will be a subject of constant debate among daemons players on whether "to FW or not to FW". Only time will tell after daemons participate in a few of those major tournaments.
Dash2021 wrote: I think if Draigoless wing had just punched on forwards it would have been a massacre. Wraithdar are great till they get in combat. Even with half a squad the pally's nearly destroyed em. Here's hoping that the new codex fixes the greatest weakness of the eldar codex: a bunch of dumb #*%# 12" weapons on units that have no business being near CC.
As for the rematch Council/Farbomb. It's over. 7 warlocks in one turn ended it. Unless grant goes red hot on saves (and mathematically he shouldn't) he'll die in the next turn. It was a good gambit to try and sweep the tau, but it didn't work (even with I7 baron? Bad luck). If some how he survives, and gets Terrify off/ survives over watch he gets one more chance to sweep. I'm not holding my breath though (...but spamming F5 may not be out of the question).
Hard to say. The wraith bomb would have just back-pedaled and kept firing if the paladinstar adopted that tactic. Just the 2 Tau characters alone were enough to cause all that damage. Imagine how walking into the threat range of the bomb would have been! If I had Draigo in the unit or Forewarning on Coteaz, I definitely would have done that. This battle really illustrates the difference between Draigo and a Grandmaster. Both are good for different purposes.
The new eldar codex will fix some and then will nerf some. Just like the new Tau codex. Just like the new daemons. It's a give-&-take and generally, I like the direction of the newer codices. Gone are the mono-dominant builds such as Tzeentch screamer/flamer-spam. Instead, you're getting a more flexible codex with a lot more variety. That is a win in my books.
Siphen wrote: Blegh...something about that Farsight Bomb vs Seer Council rematch upsets me.
The game would have been a massacre if the Council got ANY other warlord trait. Not to mention that failing 3 out of 4 Ld 7 tests is pretty unlikely anyway...almost a 60% chance to pass. (plus the council making that 9" charge, plus taking 0 casualties in two rounds of combat, plus only losing a single biker to all those missiles, etc )
Either way, I don't know if I would call that a crushing victory. The Tau may have been tabled, but the Eldar deathstar only had 2 wounds left.
Yeah, I'm upset also....I lost!
But it is a dice game and there is a lot of unbalance between the deathstars. That is also why there is a lot of rock-paper-scissors matchups between the various deathstars.
Stupid Warlord trait. Stupid, stupid.....
But it's all a part of the game. Just got to deal with it and move on. Get dealt the wrong cards, then you have to compensate with your tactics. And in that game, I almost pulled it off.
Yeah, it is more of a minor victory, but I believe the rulebook describes a tabling as a crushing victory. Small technicalities but the bottom line is, a win is still a win.
But it is a dice game and there is a lot of unbalance between the deathstars. That is also why there is a lot of rock-paper-scissors matchups between the various deathstars.
I disagree. It's not Rock-Paper-Scissors, because Rock-Paper-Scissors is deterministic. The results here aren't that, they're based on rolling the good psychic powers and/or warlord traits. It'd be like Rock-Paper-Scissors, where Rock gets a 1-in-6 chance to beat Paper if it rolls the right power.
All told, you did some fun battles and posted some cool pictures and it's a game. But I don't think I'd claim that the Warlockstar is the best deathstar based on which warlord trait it rolled.
Siphen wrote: Blegh...something about that Farsight Bomb vs Seer Council rematch upsets me.
The game would have been a massacre if the Council got ANY other warlord trait. Not to mention that failing 3 out of 4 Ld 7 tests is pretty unlikely anyway...almost a 60% chance to pass. (plus the council making that 9" charge, plus taking 0 casualties in two rounds of combat, plus only losing a single biker to all those missiles, etc )
Either way, I don't know if I would call that a crushing victory. The Tau may have been tabled, but the Eldar deathstar only had 2 wounds left.
the power of 4++ and fortune is very evident in this battle. Not to mention the fact as to how dependent we are on fortune. A lot of the people at my LGS despise the sweep rule since they think it is very illogical for so small a unit to take out so many XD. I am with them on this, but Eldar need every rule that works in our favor to win...for now .
Yeah, Fortune is a powerhouse. I think competitive eldar is just too reliant on their psychic powers.
I can't wait to see the new eldar codex. I really like the direction GW is going with all their new 6E codices. They are very flexible in terms of playstyle, even for the competitive builds. Even now, I don't believe anyone can come up to an agreement on what a truly competitive Daemon or Tau build looks like, and to me, that is a good thing. So pretty soon, eldar players won't need to have "every rule that works in our favor to win". They're probably going to have a whole lot of options for winning.
lambsandlions wrote: After reading all the reports two things stand out to me. First psychic powers are extremely strong. Fortune, prescience, invisible, misfortune etc are all so powerful and are really the glue that holds the death stars together. Which bring me to the second thing that stands out, if your powers fail you are ed. So many of the games came down to getting the right powers, having the power denied, taking a peril of the warp etc. Or going second and not having that power up on the first turn. Fortune is probably the strongest power, it means your baron needs an average of 36 wounds on him to fail his invul save rather than 6. But if you go second you don't get a turn to buff up and are extremely vulnerable. I am not sure how much I like relying on powers that may fail or be denied and leave my army dead.
This is one of the things I like most about the tau star. It does similar things to prescience, perfect timing, invisible without needing to be cast every turn, there is no risk of failing or being denied. Doesn't matter if you go first or second, you just get the power. You don't have to worry if your opponent has runes of warding or ghost helms or anything. Also even though tau star didn't come out on top I do think it is the best deathstar for actual game purposes. Because of target locks you can focus on multiple targets instead of being stuck killing one thing at a time. In your tau vs eldar report you say how you like the fireknife build but I think it is wrong. You are better off having 2 plasma on one suit and 2 missile pods on another than to mix weapons, as in real situations those 2 missiles will be going to light vehicles while the 2 plasma want to be going to elite unites. The tau deathstar's ability to move across the board taking out multiple things at one is where its real power lies and sadly we don't see it here.
Overall, I think this was a fun series. I enjoyed reading ever report was surprised at how strong some of the death stars are (namely demons who I thought were going to be rubbish). Thanks for making these. I hope we can get a tau vs eldar rematch in a few months when the new eldar book comes out.
Well said. I think some of the most powerful armies will be the ones able to take advantage of psychic powers. Unfortunately, armies like Tau and Necrons, who are very good non-psychic armies, will also be at the mercy of these new power-houses.
In any case, I will touch up more on this subject in my Post-Tournament Wrap-up.
I actually felt that daemons were one of the stronger armies and could have taken this tournament. Their only bad matchup was the seer council and even then, the seer council would have had problems against the daemons. There is nothing more powerful in the game right now than re-rollable 2++ Invuln's! Truly, a broken piece of mechanic.
djn wrote: Good to see the much hyped farsight bomb get beaten! Eldar were very lucky with warlord trait and some of the Tau Ld checks though. Great series of reports jy2.
Thanks. Yeah, Tau was playing with a huge handicap in this game with a reduced LD. This is probably one game where the Space Marine Librarian ally would have made a big difference. ATSKNF is just wicked good, but I suppose that is a different deathstar for another day.
Redbeard wrote: I have to say, the end was both completely anti-climactic, and totally 6th ed. Yay, one side won by rolling a warlord trait that dominated the game.
Well, deldar did make an astounding comeback despite taking such a beating, which did make it such an exciting game (at least while we were playing). But I think these types of rolling - the ones that makes or breaks some of these matchups - is the norm nowadays. They come pack and parcel with 6E, like it or not. But if you're still playing in 6th, then you just have to deal with it.
Some examples:
Paladinstar probably wouldn't have beaten the eldar so badly had they not got Misfortune in 1 game and had they not seized the initiative in the 2nd game.
Daemons never really rolled poorly on the Warpstorm tables or they got unfavorable Grimoire rolls when they most needed it.
All the good psychic powers were dice-dependent. Get the right powers and matches become much easier. Get the wrong ones and it becomes much tougher.
Random charge lengths. Fail even 1 charge and it could be game over.
Getting a good Warlord Trait whereas your opponent gets a bad one. Honestly, Tau had the advantage the entire series because they always had a good Warlord trait (Shadowsun's 3D6" assault move) whereas everyone else had to roll for them.
6E has just made the game more random. Some may like it. Others may not. Unfortunately, you just got to make do with what you've got....or else go play another game.
But it is a dice game and there is a lot of unbalance between the deathstars. That is also why there is a lot of rock-paper-scissors matchups between the various deathstars.
I disagree. It's not Rock-Paper-Scissors, because Rock-Paper-Scissors is deterministic. The results here aren't that, they're based on rolling the good psychic powers and/or warlord traits. It'd be like Rock-Paper-Scissors, where Rock gets a 1-in-6 chance to beat Paper if it rolls the right power.
All told, you did some fun battles and posted some cool pictures and it's a game. But I don't think I'd claim that the Warlockstar is the best deathstar based on which warlord trait it rolled.
I like to look at it as a true measure of the deathstar. Can your deathstar still persevere even in unfavorable conditions? Because 6E has just made the game more random and like it or not, sometimes you will find yourself handicapped by its randomness (whether it be going 2nd, getting good/bad powers, favorable Warlord traits, getting the initiative seized, failing a charge, daemon randomness, etc.). The good deathstars should be able to cope. The bad ones - the deathstars that are reliant on certain favorable conditions to go their way - they will be the ones that have the most problems. These are now a part of "everyday life" for the normal 40K gamer. Either learn to cope with it or let it frustrate and discourage you (and then move on to another gaming system).
The seer council isn't the "best deathstar" anymore than necrons are the "best army". Rather, they are the "best deathstar in this tournament" because they consistently beat everyone but the Grey Knights. Yeah, they had some good luck in the Finale, but they also had some horrible luck against the knights.
Lt. Coldfire wrote: Everything went as planned for the council. They have spoken.
This was a fun and interesting thread idea, jy2. I suspect another one will follow in due time!
Thanks!
It may be a while. I need to start posting some "normal" battle reports again and then I'm off on vacation. Then we have the new eldar coming out....
I don't think you really addressed Redbeards point however. And it was a very good point. I simply think he was pointing out how this demonstration ended up proving how it is impossible to determine which is better due to all the randomness. There really isn't much consistency left now in 6th. Saying, oh hey, welcome to 6th. Like it it or leave it, may be the only enswer we are left with, but it doesn't discredit his claim any.
You and others, myself included, have been guilty of utilizing the old "rock, paper, scissors match-up," but this is a very 5th edition concept and I don't think it holds true any more with the advent of allies and the newer codexes.
On a personal note I and many others I play with are abandoning, well maybe taking a step back is a better explanation, from competitive 40k for more of the hobby side as the more we play the more we have to deal with this glaring truth that although it is a game of dice, adding more and more random generation really does make it less consistent and by design less tactical then 5th. Is this bad? Actually I am liking it more and more as it seems we are playing with units whose fluff we appreciate and whose models are adored rather then simply what is the most cost efficient at it's roll.
Red Corsair wrote: I don't think you really addressed Redbeards point however. And it was a very good point. I simply think he was pointing out how this demonstration ended up proving how it is impossible to determine which is better due to all the randomness. There really isn't much consistency left now in 6th. Saying, oh hey, welcome to 6th. Like it it or leave it, may be the only enswer we are left with, but it doesn't discredit his claim any.
You and others, myself included, have been guilty of utilizing the old "rock, paper, scissors match-up," but this is a very 5th edition concept and I don't think it holds true any more with the advent of allies and the newer codexes.
On a personal note I and many others I play with are abandoning, well maybe taking a step back is a better explanation, from competitive 40k for more of the hobby side as the more we play the more we have to deal with this glaring truth that although it is a game of dice, adding more and more random generation really does make it less consistent and by design less tactical then 5th. Is this bad? Actually I am liking it more and more as it seems we are playing with units whose fluff we appreciate and whose models are adored rather then simply what is the most cost efficient at it's roll.
I agree with almost everything you say here except for Tactical having less to do with more randomness. I feel with more randomness you have to play as if your 5th Ed 'Sure thing' won't be that sure thing. This requires more thinking instead of taking those go-to units and winning via rolling the dice versus making any tactical decisions in case things go wrong.
The game would have been a massacre if the Council got ANY other warlord trait. Not to mention that failing 3 out of 4 Ld 7 tests is pretty unlikely anyway...almost a 60% chance to pass. (plus the council making that 9" charge, plus taking 0 casualties in two rounds of combat, plus only losing a single biker to all those missiles, etc )
Tough luck. Did you see all the "1"s the GK got for their armour saves?
Crap happens.
Interesting. I have never even considered that combo. I always felt it more important to take Draigo or a Grandmaster in order to make the paladins scoring, but I like the fact that 2 psykers does make the unit that much more psychically powerful.
Deathstars should not be scoring as a definition of them imo. In the wider context you always have something scoring on the table.
Draigo only brings a few tanking rolls to the deathstar, for what he costs that is ridiculously underpowered.
The libby buffs and protects the squad far better and also allows for deep striking tricks that have won me more close-call games then anything other.
Also, now with the deamons and their OP combos I am tempted to really start experimenting with dark excommunication. At the low cost that it has it might be a real bargain now.
Red Corsair wrote: I don't think you really addressed Redbeards point however. And it was a very good point. I simply think he was pointing out how this demonstration ended up proving how it is impossible to determine which is better due to all the randomness. There really isn't much consistency left now in 6th. Saying, oh hey, welcome to 6th. Like it it or leave it, may be the only enswer we are left with, but it doesn't discredit his claim any.
You and others, myself included, have been guilty of utilizing the old "rock, paper, scissors match-up," but this is a very 5th edition concept and I don't think it holds true any more with the advent of allies and the newer codexes.
On a personal note I and many others I play with are abandoning, well maybe taking a step back is a better explanation, from competitive 40k for more of the hobby side as the more we play the more we have to deal with this glaring truth that although it is a game of dice, adding more and more random generation really does make it less consistent and by design less tactical then 5th. Is this bad? Actually I am liking it more and more as it seems we are playing with units whose fluff we appreciate and whose models are adored rather then simply what is the most cost efficient at it's roll.
Look back he has already answered this , let me find it.
Salacious Greed wrote: First: Let me say, great games so far, been interesting to see them play out.
Second: A few questions though on your methodology.
1. You keep pointing out that instead of DeathStars, some people are bringing up Army lists, which I agree. But in your GK vs PinkStar, you didn't really run the PinkStar as a Star. If it was a DS, wouldn't the LOC have to be IN the DS, otherwise you're running a mini-army by not having it as part of the Star. Just trying to parse what we effectively consider a DS, and what's not.
2. While this is a great thread, and you are producing great matchups, you're really only providing one-offs for us (the readers), and not really showing which DS is better. It would be much more boring, but I think to show which DS is statistically the best, you'd have to approximate average rolls (3.5 for 1d6[being a 3 or 4 on a rotating basis], a 7 for 2d6, 10.5 for 3d6, etc.). You're really incorporating the luck factor into these matchups, which you've pointed out multiple times to likely determining the winner. Also, I think knowledge of using the DS and generalship are also in play here, and thus not giving a true measure of the actual DS.
I'm just asking, as I see so many people throwing so many hats into the ring, and want to know where the majority stands. Thanks! Great stuff as always JY2.
This idea was borne from using the pinkstar/horrorbomb. The LoC was added in to enable the use of more expensive deathstars.
2. Luck is a factor in all games, if you want to mathhammer averages in anyone can do that, it doesnt need a entry in bat reps (more tactics). There is no acutal measurement of a deathstar as you pointed out it is down to the general and to the opponent on how he counters any deathstar, that is a impossible to answer question and something that cannot be attained in a bat rep. This isnt (I think, excuse for me for putting words in your mouth Jy2) a test to see make each deathstar a paper rock scissors (i,e Tau ALWAYS beats paladins, Pinkstar Always beats palandins etc) it is a interesting read up on Jy2's tactics and experince of deathstars and other peoples.
Bat Reps really is not the place for math hammer as there are real life people rolling dice here.
And
Those are some very good questions. Let me address them as best I can.
1. It's not a pure deathstar vs deathstar as there are discrepencies in points between them. Draigowing runs in at almost 1K, but many of the other deathstars run much less. Examples include the Pinkstar, the Dark Harliestar, Dark Eldar Beastmasters, etc. These deathstars are too big to be considered a mini-star (about 500-pts) but not big enough to be considered a true deathstar (1K). Thus, in order to make it as fair as possible, I allowed complementary units so that the units can get up to 1K. Otherwise, you bring in allegations that the matches aren't fair...."well, naturally the 700-pt pinkstar should lose to other deathstars, they're 300-pts less! It was never a fair battle. Etc." And it isn't an army list as it doesn't consist of a legal army composition (though it does have to obey legal FOC compositions). In a sense, you can kind of look at the LoC as a complementary unit to the Pinkstar in a way that the Land Raider Spartan is a complementary unit to the hamminator deathstar. They're both separate units.
2. It would be much more boring if this was just a mathhammer/theoryhammer thread. It would also be inaccurate as well. No amount of theoryhammer can let you know which deathstar is best. Because theoryhammer does not and cannot take into consideration tactics, terrain and all the random variables in a game. Just some of the stuff theoryhammer will not account for:
- Terrain.
- Tactics. How will the grey knights deal with the plasma-heavy Tau? How can Tau and the Pinkstar deal with the mobility of the Seer Council? How can you avoid some of the psychic powers such as Doom, Misfortune, Enfeeble, etc.? How would you play/deploy if you were going 2nd? Tactics is a huge portion of the game that theoryhammer will never be able to account for.
- What psychic powers or daemonic rewards you get. Without Forewarning, there will be no re-rollable 2++ for daemons. Powers such as Misfortune and Invisibility makes a huge difference in a game if the army can get it. So do gifts such as 4+ FNP, +1W or re-roll Invuln's. Then you've got Iron Arm from Biomancy. Or what about Hallucination on the paladins? All these powers and gifts really change the outcome of the game.
- Runes of Warding. You can't see on paper how RoW will affect psychic armies - how many models it will kill and more importantly, how it affects whether you use psychic powers or not.
- Movement. The Movement phases is one of the most important phases of the game....and yet it can't be accounted for on paper.
- Failed leaderships.
- Precision shots/strikes to target VIP models in a unit.
- The success/failure and impact of Hit & Run.
- Miscellaneous factors such as the Grimoire or the Warp Storm table. Or how if you roll snake-eyes for Daemonic Instability (it did happen!), the entire unit comes back from the dead (or dies if you roll box-cars).
Luck will always be a part of the game as this is a dice game. Yes, these games may be "one-offs". Then again, so is every person who has ever won a tournament before. So is every person who has ever played a game before. Luck is as much a part of this game as anything else.
Look how high furies score on wounds ... but they are LD2 ... so depending on terrain and who they are up against ... also they need a herald badly (so minimum 90+ with beguilement). and how good are they without any AP2 against vehicles - actually a bit better in some cases then seekers,
Plague Drones are by far the lowest ... but they are tough. They make excellent icon carriers. They have a higher str. Adding an AP2 weapon allows them to take down vehicles as well.
Seekers pretty much rule in cc but they are Str3 and they die easily. But they can outflank and have acute senses.
I could mathhhamer out horrors as well. They do not kill that many meqs with shooting ( DTW, SotW, Runes, all hurt them as well) But they are bodyguards to the best heralds in the game. Daemonetttes may do more damage, PBs might be a bit more durable. It does not negate that only horrors shoot and that Tzeentch heralds need protection.
So much of the game depends on dice rolls. Daemons are very random, indeed. Now Jy2 did not use Fateweaver in his DoC list. I suspect he will be more of a staple in any tournament list then an LoC becuase rerolls are crucial for daemons. So as much as I want to put my faith in mathhammer we all know that it is just an indicator of what needs testing not a determinate of what should eventually constitute your list.
I could go through a Paladinstar as well. Draigo actually makes no sense without eternal warrior. Certainly a Libbie might indeed be better but a libbie does not make paladins troops aor another unit scoring. And again we can compare a Commander to Shadowsun in a farsight bomb. Shadowsun is not that difficult to take out with precision shots either. We can nit pick these deathstars ad nauseam. But really I would rather just enjoy the reports. I ask questions from time to time. Jy2 swears by portaglphs - I can supply math on the likehood of it getting destroyed early and wasting thirty points easily. But it can also end up pumping out a scoring troop. I play DE ... I'm told using a crucible I'm bucking the odds. Tell me that when I drop in the middle of your daemon host or Nid force. Math be da****
Red Corsair wrote: I don't think you really addressed Redbeards point however. And it was a very good point. I simply think he was pointing out how this demonstration ended up proving how it is impossible to determine which is better due to all the randomness. There really isn't much consistency left now in 6th. Saying, oh hey, welcome to 6th. Like it it or leave it, may be the only enswer we are left with, but it doesn't discredit his claim any.
You and others, myself included, have been guilty of utilizing the old "rock, paper, scissors match-up," but this is a very 5th edition concept and I don't think it holds true any more with the advent of allies and the newer codexes.
On a personal note I and many others I play with are abandoning, well maybe taking a step back is a better explanation, from competitive 40k for more of the hobby side as the more we play the more we have to deal with this glaring truth that although it is a game of dice, adding more and more random generation really does make it less consistent and by design less tactical then 5th. Is this bad? Actually I am liking it more and more as it seems we are playing with units whose fluff we appreciate and whose models are adored rather then simply what is the most cost efficient at it's roll.
I agree with almost everything you say here except for Tactical having less to do with more randomness. I feel with more randomness you have to play as if your 5th Ed 'Sure thing' won't be that sure thing. This requires more thinking instead of taking those go-to units and winning via rolling the dice versus making any tactical decisions in case things go wrong.
OK but I am not saying forfeit all decisions and contingencies however I recently played a game against demons and my opponent rolled forewarning on 2 heralds and then preceded to roll a 10 on the warp storm table and pass the grimoir the first three turns.... Tell me, how to I plan for that or even compensate? This was my major point...
And to MarkyMark- He makes good points there and I would agree, math hammer only takes you so far. But that still doesn't address RB point. It was a simple statement and I believe it to be fact. In large tactics took a major hit in 6th like it or not and there really were NO rock paper scissor matches when at the start of every match no one knew who would be a rock and who scissors until they rolled some random tables. A lot of the rhetoric I read in here is the same noise I have heard for years, when something goes right it's amazing generalship, when the crap hits the fan, it's bad dice and hey what can you do. To some degree this was and still is true, but it's starting to matter less what decisions one makes after list construction. Is movement important, of course but some one can lose an entire game just because his opponent rolled iron bark forest regardless of how well you position yourself.
To summarize, I am not saying tactics no longer play a roll, nor am I saying these exercises are not entertaining but the fact remains that this whole exercise really didn't solve a thing because you could rewind the tournament and make the same correct or incorrect decisions and even apply the same die rolls with the exception of random preliminary tables like warlord traits and psychic powers and never get the same outcome. Back in 5th for example you could play draigo wing against a jet seer council and 9 times out of 10 you would have the same result.
Imagine in real life if whenever a soldier fired a round he had a 16% chance or chambering rock salt rather then a live bullet. Now you understand what these tables have done in 6th.
Red Corsair wrote: I don't think you really addressed Redbeards point however. And it was a very good point. I simply think he was pointing out how this demonstration ended up proving how it is impossible to determine which is better due to all the randomness. There really isn't much consistency left now in 6th. Saying, oh hey, welcome to 6th. Like it it or leave it, may be the only enswer we are left with, but it doesn't discredit his claim any.
You and others, myself included, have been guilty of utilizing the old "rock, paper, scissors match-up," but this is a very 5th edition concept and I don't think it holds true any more with the advent of allies and the newer codexes.
On a personal note I and many others I play with are abandoning, well maybe taking a step back is a better explanation, from competitive 40k for more of the hobby side as the more we play the more we have to deal with this glaring truth that although it is a game of dice, adding more and more random generation really does make it less consistent and by design less tactical then 5th. Is this bad? Actually I am liking it more and more as it seems we are playing with units whose fluff we appreciate and whose models are adored rather then simply what is the most cost efficient at it's roll.
I agree with almost everything you say here except for Tactical having less to do with more randomness. I feel with more randomness you have to play as if your 5th Ed 'Sure thing' won't be that sure thing. This requires more thinking instead of taking those go-to units and winning via rolling the dice versus making any tactical decisions in case things go wrong.
OK but I am not saying forfeit all decisions and contingencies however I recently played a game against demons and my opponent rolled forewarning on 2 heralds and then preceded to roll a 10 on the warp storm table and pass the grimoir the first three turns.... Tell me, how to I plan for that or even compensate? This was my major point...
And to MarkyMark- He makes good points there and I would agree, math hammer only takes you so far. But that still doesn't address RB point. It was a simple statement and I believe it to be fact. In large tactics took a major hit in 6th like it or not and there really were NO rock paper scissor matches when at the start of every match no one knew who would be a rock and who scissors until they rolled some random tables. A lot of the rhetoric I read in here is the same noise I have heard for years, when something goes right it's amazing generalship, when the crap hits the fan, it's bad dice and hey what can you do. To some degree this was and still is true, but it's starting to matter less what decisions one makes after list construction. Is movement important, of course but some one can lose an entire game just because his opponent rolled iron bark forest regardless of how well you position yourself.
To summarize, I am not saying tactics no longer play a roll, nor am I saying these exercises are not entertaining but the fact remains that this whole exercise really didn't solve a thing because you could rewind the tournament and make the same correct or incorrect decisions and even apply the same die rolls with the exception of random preliminary tables like warlord traits and psychic powers and never get the same outcome. Back in 5th for example you could play draigo wing against a jet seer council and 9 times out of 10 you would have the same result.
Imagine in real life if whenever a soldier fired a round he had a 16% chance or chambering rock salt rather then a live bullet. Now you understand what these tables have done in 6th.
QFT! 6th Edition was definitely tiered to destroy competitive play to a degree. However, at the same time it is also ruining the game with unkillable models/units. a 2+ re-rollable invul is silly and so many units can use that now. In addition with the way they changed wound allocation these guys can be shields for an entire unit. GEQ... "Good thing we brought this terminator guy with us. He just took 35 bolter saves like a champ.
Look how high furies score on wounds ... but they are LD2 ... so depending on terrain and who they are up against ... also they need a herald badly (so minimum 90+ with beguilement). and how good are they without any AP2 against vehicles - actually a bit better in some cases then seekers,
Plague Drones are by far the lowest ... but they are tough. They make excellent icon carriers. They have a higher str. Adding an AP2 weapon allows them to take down vehicles as well.
Seekers pretty much rule in cc but they are Str3 and they die easily. But they can outflank and have acute senses.
I could mathhhamer out horrors as well. They do not kill that many meqs with shooting ( DTW, SotW, Runes, all hurt them as well) But they are bodyguards to the best heralds in the game. Daemonetttes may do more damage, PBs might be a bit more durable. It does not negate that only horrors shoot and that Tzeentch heralds need protection.
So much of the game depends on dice rolls. Daemons are very random, indeed. Now Jy2 did not use Fateweaver in his DoC list. I suspect he will be more of a staple in any tournament list then an LoC becuase rerolls are crucial for daemons. So as much as I want to put my faith in mathhammer we all know that it is just an indicator of what needs testing not a determinate of what should eventually constitute your list.
I could go through a Paladinstar as well. Draigo actually makes no sense without eternal warrior. Certainly a Libbie might indeed be better but a libbie does not make paladins troops aor another unit scoring. And again we can compare a Commander to Shadowsun in a farsight bomb. Shadowsun is not that difficult to take out with precision shots either. We can nit pick these deathstars ad nauseam. But really I would rather just enjoy the reports. I ask questions from time to time. Jy2 swears by portaglphs - I can supply math on the likehood of it getting destroyed early and wasting thirty points easily. But it can also end up pumping out a scoring troop. I play DE ... I'm told using a crucible I'm bucking the odds. Tell me that when I drop in the middle of your daemon host or Nid force. Math be da****
And 120 points worth of Bloodletters on the charge will kill 10.66 marines :-)
I think this is interesting, and sheds some light on what other people are saying. A lot of the discussion seems to be quite polar: "Stone-scissors-paper" versus "random". 40k was never really stone-scissors-paper, because you could always roll But some units are really well suited to dealing with other units, which skews the odds, and makes it all the more unlikely that the will actually happen. 6th has just created new types of randomness that brings the outcome closer to being 50:50, beause when a previously disadvantaged unit rolls a good warlord trait you notice that it's a contender... but when an already dominant unit rolls one, no one notices, because there are diminishing returns to additional buffs on an already dominant unit.
A single deathstar 1v1 was never (even in 5th) a universal answer to the question "Which One Is Better?". The only way to answer such a question would be to play hundreds and hundreds of games with equally skilled players, varying terrain, and examine the large data set. I think the randomness of warlord traits, and charge distance, and psychic powers has just helped to converge (on average) most contests to being 50:50. The reason being the diminishing returns returns I mentioned above.
This, to me, makes tactics more important. Without any randomness, some units were almost strictly better than others, all the time, due to the extreme low probability of rolling . But now, if you roll up the right warlord trait (or your opponent does), you have to adapt. If you don't roll what you want, you have to adapt.
These reports are fun to read. It's great to barrack for your preferred army, and hope they come up well. But it's not the be all and end all of who's best, because as numerous people have highlighted, there are lots of other factors at play, not least of which is randomness.
Look how high furies score on wounds ... but they are LD2 ... so depending on terrain and who they are up against ... also they need a herald badly (so minimum 90+ with beguilement). and how good are they without any AP2 against vehicles - actually a bit better in some cases then seekers,
Plague Drones are by far the lowest ... but they are tough. They make excellent icon carriers. They have a higher str. Adding an AP2 weapon allows them to take down vehicles as well.
Seekers pretty much rule in cc but they are Str3 and they die easily. But they can outflank and have acute senses.
I could mathhhamer out horrors as well. They do not kill that many meqs with shooting ( DTW, SotW, Runes, all hurt them as well) But they are bodyguards to the best heralds in the game. Daemonetttes may do more damage, PBs might be a bit more durable. It does not negate that only horrors shoot and that Tzeentch heralds need protection.
So much of the game depends on dice rolls. Daemons are very random, indeed. Now Jy2 did not use Fateweaver in his DoC list. I suspect he will be more of a staple in any tournament list then an LoC becuase rerolls are crucial for daemons. So as much as I want to put my faith in mathhammer we all know that it is just an indicator of what needs testing not a determinate of what should eventually constitute your list.
I could go through a Paladinstar as well. Draigo actually makes no sense without eternal warrior. Certainly a Libbie might indeed be better but a libbie does not make paladins troops aor another unit scoring. And again we can compare a Commander to Shadowsun in a farsight bomb. Shadowsun is not that difficult to take out with precision shots either. We can nit pick these deathstars ad nauseam. But really I would rather just enjoy the reports. I ask questions from time to time. Jy2 swears by portaglphs - I can supply math on the likehood of it getting destroyed early and wasting thirty points easily. But it can also end up pumping out a scoring troop. I play DE ... I'm told using a crucible I'm bucking the odds. Tell me that when I drop in the middle of your daemon host or Nid force. Math be da****
And 120 points worth of Bloodletters on the charge will kill 10.66 marines :-)
I think this is interesting, and sheds some light on what other people are saying. A lot of the discussion seems to be quite polar: "Stone-scissors-paper" versus "random". 40k was never really stone-scissors-paper, because you could always roll But some units are really well suited to dealing with other units, which skews the odds, and makes it all the more unlikely that the will actually happen. 6th has just created new types of randomness that brings the outcome closer to being 50:50, beause when a previously disadvantaged unit rolls a good warlord trait you notice that it's a contender... but when an already dominant unit rolls one, no one notices, because there are diminishing returns to additional buffs on an already dominant unit.
A single deathstar 1v1 was never (even in 5th) a universal answer to the question "Which One Is Better?". The only way to answer such a question would be to play hundreds and hundreds of games with equally skilled players, varying terrain, and examine the large data set. I think the randomness of warlord traits, and charge distance, and psychic powers has just helped to converge (on average) most contests to being 50:50. The reason being the diminishing returns returns I mentioned above.
This, to me, makes tactics more important. Without any randomness, some units were almost strictly better than others, all the time, due to the extreme low probability of rolling . But now, if you roll up the right warlord trait (or your opponent does), you have to adapt. If you don't roll what you want, you have to adapt.
These reports are fun to read. It's great to barrack for your preferred army, and hope they come up well. But it's not the be all and end all of who's best, because as numerous people have highlighted, there are lots of other factors at play, not least of which is randomness.
10 bloodletters on the charge kill 11.11 marines? This is if there is no OW and terrain isnt an issue. Though they strike symo otherwise and the bloodletters are gonna take some casualties. This is if and only if your opponent let bloodletters get close as they are T3 combat monsters.
Sorry, guys. I'm going to take a 1-2 day break from my deathstar thread in order to writeup my Necrons vs Tau battle report. Post-Tournament Wrap-up to follow shortly afterwards.
A question ; how do you have a 2+ invunerable save on eldar wraith guard ?
It's a 2+ cover. 5+ cover from Conceal by the Spiritseer. Then Shroud+Stealth on top of that from Shadowsun. Then Fortune makes it 2+ re-rollable cover.
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (3+, Hellfire Gaze), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Misfortune, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Forewarning, Misfortune, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Perfect Timing, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Perfect Timing, Prescience, Flickering Fire
This game has the potential to be another massacre by daemons. They've got some truly effective psychic powers - Misfortune and Perfect Timing - against Taudar. They've got a FMC that the Wraith bomb really doesn't have an answer to. And they really don't care about the wraith cannons (or whatever they're called) of the taudar. Barring extreme luck - like Runes killing off most of the psykers or taudar getting a lucky Instant Death shot pass the re-rollable save of the LoC - I really don't see taudar as having a prayer of a chance in this battle. The Pinkstar should IMO take this one with minimal damage to itself (other than from Perils inflicted on itself).
Everything goes off on the LoC, including Forewarning, Precognition and the Grimoire.
Heralds, on the other hand, each takes 1W to Perils. They move forwards, drop of the Portaglyph and then run forwards.
The LoC flies up the the Wraithbomb and then runs 2D6".
The Portaglyph produces 1 pink horror, who then runs forwards.
Score (VP's) - Pinkstar: 0, Taudar: 270
Taudar 1
Cast their powers, move a a little and then shoot at the LoC (who is the only unit in range) but to no avail.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 2
The LoC gets ready to assault. He shoots down 1 wraithguard with Hellfire Gaze. I believe daemons manage to cast Misfortune on taudar.
No troops this turn from the Portaglyph.
Heralds refrain from casting. Horror shooting gets denied.
Score (VP's) - Pinkstar: 35, Taudar: 270
Taudar 2
Eldrad casts his psychic powes. The LoC is Doomed.
Taudar then shifts to the left.
Once again, their shooting does nothing.
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 3
2 Heralds die while trying to cast their psychic powers.
The LoC perils and takes a wound. The wraith bomb is Misfortuned.
The horrors advance.
Horror shooting gets denied once again.
The LoC then assaults. The spiritseer challenges to try to minimize the damage.
Naturally, he gets stomped to the ground for his troubles.
The wraith bomb fails to Hit-&-Run out of combat!
Originally, the plan was to let the LoC assault, then Hit-&-Run towards the horrors. Then next turn, go after the horrors without Forewarning or the Grimoire.
Guess not.
Score (VP's) - Pinkstar: 66, Taudar: 380
Taudar 3
And so combat continues.
Taudar challenges with Eldrad and his re-rollable 3++ to try to stem the bleeding.
Eldrad is crushed.
The army then piles-in.
Score (VP's) - Pinkstar: 276, Taudar: 380
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 4
The Portaglyph generates another 6 horrors.
Shadowsun challenges this time.
The LoC knocks her senseless.
The wraith bomb would then fail their Hit-&-Run yet again!
Score (VP's) - Pinkstar: 411, Taudar: 380
Taudar 4
No more challenges. The LoC causes a few wounds, who the commander then Look-Out-Sirs! to Shadowsun's shield drones (with 3++) and taking 1W on himself.
Score (VP's) - Pinkstar: 431, Taudar: 380
Turn 5
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 5
The LoC kill 1 wraithguard, the other shield drone and put another 1W on the commander.
The taudar finally manages to get out of combat, moving 7" towards the horrors.
Score (VP's) - Pinkstar: 586, Taudar: 380
Taudar 5
They go after the pinkstar....just 2 turns too late.
They manage to shoot down 6 horrors.
They then fail to make the charge, needing about 7" but only getting 6".
Score (VP's) - Pinkstar: 586, Taudar: 434
The game continue for 1 more turn.
Turn 6
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 6
Overview of Turn 6.
Now without Runes of Warding, daemons are free to cast their powers. However, I believe the Grimoire fails on the LoC.
Doesn't matter. It's kill or be killed.
The Portaglyph spawns another 5 horrors.
1 horror perils while trying to cast Flickering Fire.
Shooting against a Misfortuned unit kills 7 wraithguards.
The LoC then charges.
Even after re-rolls to hit and to wound from Precognition, 1 wraithguard surivives!
Runes of Warding actually did more damage to daemons than the actual taudar deathstar. Can't say I'm surprised there. Perhaps if they hadn't failed 2 Hit-&-Runs, the game might have been slightly closer. But because they did, they ended up having to sacrifice both Shadowsun and Eldrad. Overall, the wraithstar will have problems against the 2 shooty deathstar here. They just don't have the range and they cannot rely on their cover as both of those deathstars (the Pinkstar and the Farsight Bomb) can strip their cover. Against the pinkstar, not so much problems with their shooting as it is problems with the LoC. The wraith bomb really doesn't have a solution to the LoC other than to hope that daemons fail their grimoire test. This is as tough a matchup for them as they are for the paladinstar.
This game has the potential to be another massacre by daemons. They've got some truly effective psychic powers - Misfortune and Perfect Timing - against Taudar. They've got a FMC that the Wraith bomb really doesn't have an answer to. And they really don't care about the wraith cannons (or whatever they're called) of the taudar. Barring extreme luck - like Runes killing off most of the psykers or taudar getting a lucky Instant Death shot pass the re-rollable save + FNP of the LoC - I really don't see taudar as having a prayer of a chance in this battle. The Pinkstar should IMO take this one with minimal damage to itself (other than from Perils inflicted on itself).
Feel no pain doesn't work against wounds that cause ID.
I actually know that, but it was a brainfart that I wrote it in (was thinking he gets FNP against their normal shooting). I'll go back and edit it. Thanks.
Especially on init 5. It is hard to get a good representation with the dice the way they were. The best show I see here is daemons cant beat anyone when the dice are favorable.
MarkyMark wrote: Jy2, have you joined the vassal band wagon yet?, would love to have a game with you!
Sorry, not on the vassal band wagon. For some reason, it looks overly complicated to me. Also, the thought of just being able to play 40K at any time frighens me. I just may end up a divorced, jobless computer vegetable. Haha. j.k.
Yup, and it's happened twice in these series of games. The first was with the Farsight bomb against the seer council in their very first game (Game #6). And now this game.
Especially on init 5. It is hard to get a good representation with the dice the way they were. The best show I see here is daemons cant beat anyone when the dice are favorable.
My opinion is that even had they managed to H&R out of combat, it still would have been a tough fight for the Wraith bomb.
's on saves.
