This is just for fun. It is also because I've got some time on my hands as "the Mrs." will be out-of-town next week. Anyone interested to see which is the best deathstar? I'm going to set up (and probably play) a mini-tournament between 4 deathstars to see which one is the best deathstar. Yes, it is going to be deathstars in a vaccum without support from the rest of the army, but then again, shouldn't a true deathstar be able to work independently from the rest of the army?
Currently, I will be using deathstars from 4 armies - Grey Knights, Eldar/Dark Eldar, Tau and Daemons. There are more, however, I wanted to test out some of the most expensive (and probably best) deathstars out there. My only requirements for the deathstars is that they must be a legal deathstar. For example, a unit of pink horrors joined by 9 Tzeentch Heralds isn't a legal deathstar. My other requirement is that they must fit at 1000-pts or less.
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3
20x Pink Horrors
1000
The Pinkstar itself was only 695-pts so I decided to throw in the Lord of Change to bring it up to 1K. I think this is a good combination. While the pinkstar has some resiliency, it has no assault capabilities whatsoever. The LoC gives the unit some counter-assault as well as some much needed mobility. You can kind of use him as a "bodyguard" for the deathstar, though he is practically a deathstar just by himself as well.
In any case, I wanted to test out just how deadly is the shooting of the Pinkstar.
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead. I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
1000 Jetseer Council Deldar
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
This will be a round-robin mini-tournament format. Every deathstar will play every other deathstar once. In the end, the deathstar with the best record will be the most dominant deathstar. In the case of a tie (i.e. if 2 deathstars end up 2-1 each), the 2 armies will play each other for the "deathstar championship". Otherwise, rankings will be based on Win-loss as Primary and Total Victory Points as Secondary in the case of identical records.
Mission:
Simple. Just kill each other. I will measure the destruction by straight Victory Points on a model-by-model basis. Multi-wound models will offer 1/2 victory points if brought to 1/2 the total wounds or less and full VP's if killed. Thus, if you kill a normal paladin, you get 55 VP's. If you bring him down to 1W, you get 28 VP's. If you kill the Lord of Change, you get 305 VP's. If you bring down to 2W or less (or 3W if he gets the +1W greater gift), then you get 153 VP's. This is mainly to measure the pure destructive capabilities and resiliency of each deathstar.
It will be a standard random-length game where you determine if the game goes on after 5 turns.
Deployment:
I will be using the Standard deployments from the book.
Initiative:
Roll off to pick sides and then roll off for Initiative. Night-fight rolled as normal.
Ok, people, place your bets. Who do you think is the best deathstar and how do you think each deathstar will match up against each other?
Also, you can submit your own deathstar into the mix. If I like it, I may consider adding them to the mini-tournament or even replacing one of the current armies.
Here's one that'd be nasty, especially vs Farsight's unit since it'd be difficult for them to kite them:
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Runic Armour, Saga of the Bear)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, Power Fist, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Runic Armour)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, Power Fist, Storm Shield, Runic Armour)
4x TWC (2x Storm Shield, 1x Power Fist)
Question: must the deathstar fit in a single FOC? In any case, I submit the following:
2 x Warboss, packing Cybork, PK, and Bikes
8 Nobz + Painboy, all packing Bikes, PK's, and Cybork.
This comes up to about 945 points, so you've got 55 points you could allocate to kombi-weapons or possibly 'eavy armor, maybe even attack squigs.
I keep thinking you could do something nasty with Necron Royal Court Disco Inferno and an attached Destroyer Lord, but so far I haven't been able to come up with anything that I like.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Here's one that'd be nasty, especially vs Farsight's unit since it'd be difficult for them to kite them:
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Runic Armour, Saga of the Bear)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, Power Fist, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Runic Armour)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, Power Fist, Storm Shield, Runic Armour)
4x TWC (2x Storm Shield, 1x Power Fist)
Man, I actually forgot about hero-hammer Space Wolves!
What do you think of the following SW deathstar?
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, Storm Shield, Runic Armour, Powerfist, Saga of the Bear)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, Storm Shield, Runic Armour, Wolf Claw, Saga of Majesty)
Wolf Guard Battle Leader (Thunderwolf, Storm Shield, Runic Armour, Powerfist)
Rune Priest (Master of Runes, Runic Armor, Bike)
15x Fenrisian Wolves
1000
The RP adds some utility to the unit. Psychic defense is perhaps his best contribution. However, Jaws could be nasty to some of the lower inititive deathstars like Crisis Suits or even the paladins. Or you can trade in for Divination powers like Prescience or Misfortune. However, the real gem here is Precognition. If you can get that power, you can put him in the front for some re-rollable 2+ saves against small-arms fire while using LOS on the AP 1/2 guns.
The only drawback is that you lose Fleet with him attached, but if you really need to, you can always detach him from the unit.
Don't forget that Tau can remove their cover (in case they get Invisibility) with the Multi-Spectrum Sensors.
Their damage output is also suspect against 2+ paladins....or even pink horrors with 2++ saves!
But their mobility is unmatched. Shooty deathstars (Farsight-bomb and the Pinkstar) will only have 1 chance to shoot at them and that is it.
BayneMor wrote: Farseer runes fortune guide
Wraithguard x10
Warlock conceal
Shadowsun (Tau HQ that gives shrouded and stealth)
should be less than 1000 points.
I'm not feeling this deathstar. Their damage output is just too low and short-ranged, especially when you consider how fast some of the deathstars are and how resilient they can be with 2+ cover/invuln's, of which some may be re-rollable.
Moreover, this unit's got no resiliency in combat and no way to get out of combat.
Draigowing is definitely the oldest deathstar on my list and probably the standard everyone looks up to. However, I think they've got their work cut out for them. At 1K, I just couldn't fit in Prescience. Moreover, they've got very poor mobility.
The Tau deathstar is very good. I think they have the potential to win it all.
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Question: must the deathstar fit in a single FOC? In any case, I submit the following:
2 x Warboss, packing Cybork, PK, and Bikes
8 Nobz + Painboy, all packing Bikes, PK's, and Cybork.
This comes up to about 945 points, so you've got 55 points you could allocate to kombi-weapons or possibly 'eavy armor, maybe even attack squigs.
I keep thinking you could do something nasty with Necron Royal Court Disco Inferno and an attached Destroyer Lord, but so far I haven't been able to come up with anything that I like.
Ah, nob bikers. I was considering them as well. They do have the potential to beat face and make it into this tournament.
And yes, I am thinking of single-FOC deathstars only, though you could bring in allies.
Hmmm....interesting. Never thought about this unit.
It can be a little tricky getting them into Template range without a night scythe. Veil of Darkness isn't all that accurate and if you mishap and go back into reserves, you will be considered tabled because you don't have a model on the board at the end of the turn.
How about 2 Destroyer lords with 12 wraiths? Its actually 2 units, but lots of necron players use the D lord wraithwing as a deathstar.
CSM also like to use either the Khorne Juggerlord with 5 chaos spawn or the Nurgle T6 chaos lord on a bike with black mace, with Sorceror on bike plus 10 nurgle T6 bikes. (A bit similar to nod bikers unit).
And since we allow Draigo, then for CSM, we can have Typhus + Abaddon + 10 Nurgle marked terminators with the works! lol
Horrors, you dont need three conjurations really, you have enough LOS to protect from shooting and once they are in CC PSA has no effect, therefore I would suggest the other Loci's. Transmaj... etc and locus of change. d3 horror auto hits is a small fallback but it would be nice to see some palies die to it!, also the sd6 could be good rather then their base str3, yes its random but its chaos!. Personnaly I would have chosen a DP to lead/guard the horrors and hope for iron arm mainly for EW, palies will have a field day insta killing the LoC :(
Daemon prince, mark of tzeentch, wings, armour, mastery level 3 2 greater rewards, 1 lesser reward 355pts
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of conjuration exalted reward (grimourie)
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF)
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of transmogfrication
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF)
20 Horrors, blasted standard
1k pts dead
I would be hoping for iron arm enfeeble and possibly endurance (fnp for the horrors), greater rewards got to be plus 1 wound IWND and 4 plus FNP or re roll invul's and staff of change as the lesser gift for the DP and misfortune (or a couple at least) forewarning and of course prescience for the horror squad.
I am very interested in the outcome of this as I think, with enfeeble , the palies and tau will take a beating from one shooting phase. Also interested in the eldar vs daemons match up, this will all be down to dice though as runes will laugh at the daemons PSA and buffs debuffs :(
And dont forget, all the heralds shooting can be prescision on a 6, see that warding stave or hammer dude?, assign a few wounds to him, the tau dude with hit n run, assign a few to him etc.
I tried to make a Deathstar with Abaddon, but he would just get kited to eternity without someway to take a transport that can fit him and his ten man strong super termi unit
On the other hand, I made a Dark Angels deathstar that has delivery system, and superb amounts of killyness
Company Master in Terminator armor with Lion's Roar, Digital Weapons, Mace of Redemption and Storm Shield
joining 5x Deathwing Terminators, sarge with TH/SS in front, one guy with AC, deep striking (mostly for twinlink and splitfire the turn they arrive)
5x TH/SS Deathwing Terminators, one with CRM in a Land Raider Redeemer with Multi Melta
Dragowing can get kited as well. Similar really. Both are terminator unit deathstars.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are we including tactics in this game instead of just charging the 2 deathstars into each other? Because a CSM biker unit can just keep at range and dakka the opponent to death if it doesn't want to charge in. (Although for the pink horrors unit, it will choose to charge in cos it is out dakkaed).
bocatt wrote: I tried to make a Deathstar with Abaddon, but he would just get kited to eternity without someway to take a transport that can fit him and his ten man strong super termi unit
On the other hand, I made a Dark Angels deathstar that has delivery system, and superb amounts of killyness
Company Master in Terminator armor with Lion's Roar, Digital Weapons, Mace of Redemption and Storm Shield
joining 5x Deathwing Terminators, sarge with TH/SS in front, one guy with AC, deep striking (mostly for twinlink and splitfire the turn they arrive)
5x TH/SS Deathwing Terminators, one with CRM in a Land Raider Redeemer with Multi Melta
1000 points
It is also three units ,
I think a truer deathstar would be this (keeping in line with FOC)
Librarian, lvl2 psyker, terminator armour, force axe, monster slayer digital weapons melta bombs
Chaplain, terminator armour, mace of redempation, digital weapons, melta bombs
Techmarine plasma pistol, PFG, digital weapons, melta bombs
Harbinger of Eternity - chronometron
Harbinger of Transmogrification - seismic crucible
Harbinger of Destruction - gaze of flame
2x Harbinger of Destruction
BayneMor wrote: Farseer runes fortune guide Wraithguard x10 Warlock conceal Shadowsun (Tau HQ that gives shrouded and stealth)
should be less than 1000 points.
A little tweaking for this one.
Baron Sathonyx instead of Shadowsun.
Gives them stealth (for a 4+ cover with a conceal 'lock) defensive grenades (IIRC) and hit and run. And a 2++ at the front for soaking damages. Add Fuegan for a 2+ and his I7 str 5 ap2 axe. I'd also add eldrad going for divination book powers so aiming for the 4++ and re-rolls.
Eldrad Wraithguard + Conceal lock Fuegan Baron Farseer + Fortune (hopefully being just beneath 1k)
So this ends up with avge T6, 3+, 4++, 4+cover, 2++ at the front. With all the saves being re-rollable and Fuegan for challenges. Damage output still isn't the best, but you need an insane amount of anything to take it down. I've run this (at 2k - double FOC) without the Baron - No one has managed to kill it in a game so far. Anything within 12" is dead.
MarkyMark wrote: Horrors, you dont need three conjurations really, you have enough LOS to protect from shooting and once they are in CC PSA has no effect, therefore I would suggest the other Loci's. Transmaj... etc and locus of change. d3 horror auto hits is a small fallback but it would be nice to see some palies die to it!, also the sd6 could be good rather then their base str3, yes its random but its chaos!. Personnaly I would have chosen a DP to lead/guard the horrors and hope for iron arm mainly for EW, palies will have a field day insta killing the LoC :(
Daemon prince, mark of tzeentch, wings, armour, mastery level 3 2 greater rewards, 1 lesser reward 355pts
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of conjuration exalted reward (grimourie)
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of change
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of transmogfrication
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF)
20 Horrors
1k pts dead
I would be hoping for iron arm enfeeble and possibly endurance (fnp for the horrors), greater rewards got to be plus 1 wound IWND and 4 plus FNP or re roll invul's and staff of change as the lesser gift for the DP and misfortune (or a couple at least) forewarning and of course prescience for the horror squad.
I am very interested in the outcome of this as I think, with enfeeble , the palies and tau will take a beating from one shooting phase. Also interested in the eldar vs daemons match up, this will all be down to dice though as runes will laugh at the daemons PSA and buffs debuffs :(
And dont forget, all the heralds shooting can be prescision on a 6, see that warding stave or hammer dude?, assign a few wounds to him, the tau dude with hit n run, assign a few to him etc.
Sadly, if you have more than one loci in a unit, it only takes the highest level's effect.
If these are only fighting other deathstars why do the tau battle suits need target locks? What other unit will they be fighting? Maybe change those to counter fire defense systems to protect against the assault because I am sure they will win any shooting fight. I also wonder if you want so many missile pods or to double up on plasma rifles. Plasma rifles will do more damage against every army but demons.
I don't know if I think demons or tau will win. I feel like it will all come down to a single turn when demons fails to get their 2++ save. Tau can sit in cover and get a 2+ cover save at all times which I think makes them the favorite.
I wonder if eldar needs to do anything to actually fight demons or just let demons generate powers and kill themselves from runes of warding?
My current prediction, tau beats everyone but demons, eldar beats everyone but tau, demons beats everyone but eldar, GK loses. Rock paper scissors for the win.
MarkyMark wrote: Horrors, you dont need three conjurations really, you have enough LOS to protect from shooting and once they are in CC PSA has no effect, therefore I would suggest the other Loci's. Transmaj... etc and locus of change. d3 horror auto hits is a small fallback but it would be nice to see some palies die to it!, also the sd6 could be good rather then their base str3, yes its random but its chaos!. Personnaly I would have chosen a DP to lead/guard the horrors and hope for iron arm mainly for EW, palies will have a field day insta killing the LoC :(
Daemon prince, mark of tzeentch, wings, armour, mastery level 3 2 greater rewards, 1 lesser reward 355pts
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of conjuration exalted reward (grimourie)
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of change
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of transmogfrication
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF)
20 Horrors
1k pts dead
I would be hoping for iron arm enfeeble and possibly endurance (fnp for the horrors), greater rewards got to be plus 1 wound IWND and 4 plus FNP or re roll invul's and staff of change as the lesser gift for the DP and misfortune (or a couple at least) forewarning and of course prescience for the horror squad.
I am very interested in the outcome of this as I think, with enfeeble , the palies and tau will take a beating from one shooting phase. Also interested in the eldar vs daemons match up, this will all be down to dice though as runes will laugh at the daemons PSA and buffs debuffs :(
And dont forget, all the heralds shooting can be prescision on a 6, see that warding stave or hammer dude?, assign a few wounds to him, the tau dude with hit n run, assign a few to him etc.
Sadly, if you have more than one loci in a unit, it only takes the highest level's effect.
Ah, didnt know that!, simple fix though, drop out the change locus (20pts) and put in blasted standard on the horrors, if they get assault let the herald with the locus die and use the lesser locus for d3 horrors.
Another deathstar of CD codex that I find quite fun (probably not the most effective one though):
8 crushers, instrument, icon, icon of blood
1 champ, minor gift
Karanak
Skulltaker on Jugger
1 herald on Jugger (exalted reward and exalted loci)
1 herald on Jugger, minor gift
I'm new to this board but I've followed your battle reports for a while. I'm just wondering why the Eldar Harliestar(Eldrad and Fuegan) didn't make it?
BayneMor wrote: Farseer runes fortune guide
Wraithguard x10
Warlock conceal
Shadowsun (Tau HQ that gives shrouded and stealth)
should be less than 1000 points.
A little tweaking for this one.
Baron Sathonyx instead of Shadowsun.
Gives them stealth (for a 4+ cover with a conceal 'lock) defensive grenades (IIRC) and hit and run. And a 2++ at the front for soaking damages. Add Fuegan for a 2+ and his I7 str 5 ap2 axe.
I'd also add eldrad going for divination book powers so aiming for the 4++ and re-rolls.
Eldrad
Wraithguard + Conceal lock
Fuegan
Baron
Farseer + Fortune (hopefully being just beneath 1k)
So this ends up with avge T6, 3+, 4++, 4+cover, 2++ at the front. With all the saves being re-rollable and Fuegan for challenges. Damage output still isn't the best, but you need an insane amount of anything to take it down. I've run this (at 2k - double FOC) without the Baron - No one has managed to kill it in a game so far. Anything within 12" is dead.
The Wraithguardstar is especailly potent if you get the power that lets you overwatch at full BS. You can't take a 2nd farseer though (unless it's double FOC)
Which means I usually just take the Codex powers, because Fortune > all.
BayneMor wrote: Farseer runes fortune guide
Wraithguard x10
Warlock conceal
Shadowsun (Tau HQ that gives shrouded and stealth)
should be less than 1000 points.
A little tweaking for this one.
Baron Sathonyx instead of Shadowsun.
Gives them stealth (for a 4+ cover with a conceal 'lock) defensive grenades (IIRC) and hit and run. And a 2++ at the front for soaking damages. Add Fuegan for a 2+ and his I7 str 5 ap2 axe.
I'd also add eldrad going for divination book powers so aiming for the 4++ and re-rolls.
Eldrad
Wraithguard + Conceal lock
Fuegan
Baron
Farseer + Fortune (hopefully being just beneath 1k)
So this ends up with avge T6, 3+, 4++, 4+cover, 2++ at the front. With all the saves being re-rollable and Fuegan for challenges. Damage output still isn't the best, but you need an insane amount of anything to take it down. I've run this (at 2k - double FOC) without the Baron - No one has managed to kill it in a game so far. Anything within 12" is dead.
The Wraithguardstar is especailly potent if you get the power that lets you overwatch at full BS. You can't take a 2nd farseer though (unless it's double FOC)
Which means I usually just take the Codex powers, because Fortune > all.
Yeah, double FOC is good Take a wraithseer for comedic effect = 4+FNP on them too. At at T6, they always get it bar instant death weapons.
Apart from the Jetseer Council you can also try a Beastpack but it'll be 800 points max (if you only use 1 FoC)
Vect
Baron
Eldrad
Beastpack
-5 Beast Masters
-4 Khymeraes
-8 Razorwing Flocks
Apart from the Jetseer Council you can also try a Beastpack but it'll be 800 points max (if you only use 1 FoC) Vect Baron Eldrad Beastpack -5 Beast Masters -4 Khymeraes -8 Razorwing Flocks
Potentially, a lot!. Say you cast prescience and thats it, you will get up to 15d6 of bs4 twin linked (effectively) plus 4d6 of bs3 TL at str 6 and 2d6 of str4 auto hits with the blasted standard.
Say as a example you got prescience and misfortune on the horrors squad shooting at the Tau deathstar, ignoring enfeeble as that will greatly change things but is not 100%, (misfortune though you have 8 rolls to get it).
pass psyhic test for prescience on a 7 (yes I am rolling as examples, dont really do math hammer!), misfourtune passed not deined herald 1 with 2 warp charges passes on a 3, tau fail to deny, 2nd herald passes tau dont deny 3rd passes tau dont deny fourth passes tau dont deny and squad declares using the standard, passes and isnt denied
So all herlds have passed, thats a total of 14d6 amount of shots 56 shots, squad has 4d6 and thats 19 shots. To hit 49 hits with re roll 14 are precision shots and 11 hits from the squad, in total 60 wounds!. So yea a frigging lot of shots.
The precision shots of course go onto the suits 2 fail to wound so 12 left, assign 2 at a time to the normal suits 7 wounds with misfortune in effect, 3 dead suits, then assume the drones and forming a shield wall so 9 drones 10 wounds to kill all 9 drones, then say 2 plus suit is next takes 5 wound with re roll to put 2 wounds on him, all others are 3 plus saves, theres another 17 wounds.
In short, one shooting phase there are 36 wounds put onto the squad
How are you going to set up this scenario? I believe the board size should be fairly small to avoid the faster deathstars kiting the slower ones. Imagine Farsight running across the board in circles shooting the draigowing in pursuit.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: How are you going to set up this scenario? I believe the board size should be fairly small to avoid the faster deathstars kiting the slower ones. Imagine Farsight running across the board in circles shooting the draigowing in pursuit.
Isn't one of the important things about a deathstar how they can control a game? I think it should be a 4x6 table with 24" between starting positions. If Farsight can kite Draigowing, then Farsight should win that matchup. (On the other hand, Draigowing has a lot of shooting too).
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: How are you going to set up this scenario? I believe the board size should be fairly small to avoid the faster deathstars kiting the slower ones. Imagine Farsight running across the board in circles shooting the draigowing in pursuit.
The Hammerstar might actually catch up to that Farsight bomb, hope that Shadowsun doesn't end up infiltrated near the LR, and it doesn't throw a track, or get stuck in the mud, or get caught on a tree.
I think in order to have a viable deathstar, you need 2 major components:
1. Resiliency - Your deathstar needs to be tough. It needs to be able to take damage and still dish it out. Tough deathstars usually include 2+ save models (whether it be armour, cover or even invuln's!), multi-wounds, FNP, re-rollable saves or any of the above. All of the deathstars on my list are ultra-tough and combine 2 or more of the characteristics above. The seer council will be getting re-rollable 2+ cover. Draigowing has 2W 2+ models. The Farsight-bomb has 2W models with 2+ cover. Daemons can have re-rollable 2++ Invuln's!!!
2. You need to either have Good Shooting if you are a shooty deathstar or Good Mobility if you are an assault deathstar. I don't consider slow assault deathstars (like hamminators) to be viable unless you have a way to make them go faster (i.e. infiltrate and fleet with Shrike perhaps). They will just get pwned by the shooty deathstars. Likewise, I don't consider shooty deathstars to be viable if they don't have the volume of shots (i.e. deldar wraithguards). With the amount of 2+ cover/invuln saves that some of these deathstars include, 10 AP2 shots that have to get very close don't mean jack and there's nothing to back it up in assault.
Also, some deathstars are on the verge of being a true deathstar, though I consider them more of a mini-star instead because they can't quite get up there in points. Examples of these include the Necron Wraithstar (Destroyer Lord + 6 Wraiths) and the Tyranid Swarmlord (Swarmlord + 3 Tyrant Guards + Tyranid Prime).
So with that in mind, here are some Deathstars under Consideration to make it into my tournament:
1000 Nob Biker Orks
Biker Warboss - Warbike, Cybork Bodies, Power Klaw, Bosspole
Biker Warboss - Warbike, Cybork Bodies, Power Klaw, Bosspole
If any deathstar has a chance to make it into my list, this one is it. It's got good resiliency with T5 multi-wound models with 3+ cover and 5+ FNP. It's got good speed and good assault. Lastly, it's got respectable shooting that is often under-estimated.
--- EDITED ---
Swapped out 2 kombi-skorchas for 1 more bosspole and 1 grot orderly, as suggested by skyfi.
This is a variant on DexKivuli's Zahndy's Court. I actually like this one, though it is a long-shot to make my list. The Veil gives it some mobility. It's got decent resiliency with 2+ guys, 2 3++ Invuln's and 1 re-rollable save. Then it's got the 4+ We'll Be Back save and because of Ever-living, everyone gets a chance to come back unless the unit gets swept. Finally, it's got some scary assault with 7 mindshackle scarabs!
8 crushers, instrument, icon, icon of blood
1 champ, minor gift
Karanak
Skulltaker on Jugger
1 herald on Jugger (exalted reward and exalted loci)
1 herald on Jugger, minor gift
990
This is an interesting deathstar by Arleucs. It's very fast because it can Scout. It's also very killy in combat. I do question it's resiliency but overall, I like it.
or
Herald khorne, exalted reward jugger Exalted Locus of Wrath
Herald khorne, exalted reward jugger
Skulltaker jugger
Karanak
20 Flesh hounds
Skull Cannon of Khorne
975
This list was suggested by MarkyMark. I actually like it better than the crusher cavalry list, mainly because if the dogs get insta-killed, it isn't as bad as if he crushers get insta-killed. But both are good.
1000 Dark Angels Ravenwing Bikers (by Asmodai Asmodean)
Azrael
Librarian, Lvl 2, Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex, rolling Divination or Telepathy
10x Ravenwing Black Knights
and
Allied Sevrin Loth for full access to Biomancy
Bikes have a 3+, 4++, and possible 2+ cover from Invisibility.
Sevrin Loth + Rad Grenade for T2 enemies (Haemorrage)
Azrael blind+Mace of Redemption Blind on -1 I from Stasis Grenades
Hit and Run for disengaging, shooting, and re-charging ( Take Furious Charge warlord trait)
4+ DTW from Sevrin Loth.
I would say this is decent deathstar if they can get Invisibility. Otherwise, resiliency is an issue as 3+ saves aren't really reliable at all. I think the Librarian needs to take Artificer Armor (if that is possible, not too familiar with DA). This way, if he can get Precognition, then you are looking at re-rollable 2+ saves (or re-rollable 2+ cover if Sevrin has access to Telepathy as well....don't know). In any case, this deathstar does have a lot of potential. Sevrin is a beast!
1000 Dark Harliestar Eldar/Dark Eldar (by ALEXisAWESOME)
Eldrad using own powers (see fortune...)
Karandras
Vect
6 Harlequins with kisses
2 Harlequins with kisses and fusion pistols
Troupe master with power axe
Shadowseer with kiss.
All this meets up to 940 odd points, and 600pts of it one 3 models.
Resiliency. stealth plus shrouded leads to a constant 4+ cover, 2 + in cover. Not that survivable. Add in fortune *which WILL go off, he can try twice, rolls 3 dice and picks lowest, and RoW and RoWitnessing cancel each other out* and that become a lot better. Both Karandras and Vect can tank at the front of the unit with there 2+/+ re-rollable. Karandras at front to LOS onto vect for AP2. Speed is an issue but karandras lets his unit infaltrate closer. Then movement and fleet should catch up.
In combat on the charge thats 36 rending wounds which re-roll 1's and to wound *doom will also go off...*, 7 AP3 attacks that wound on 3's and will hit on 3's, re-rolling. 7 stength 8 AP2 hits and 3 woud on 2's ignore armour hits. In other words it hits like a brick. Hit and run means we can keep FC and keep shooting in with fusion pistols + vects ap2 blast. So, what do you think, im sure you have already thought of them.
1000 Ghazzy He Da Manz Orks (by Dakkamite)
Ghazghull
Grotsnik
x8 Meganobs (MANz) 400
+Cybork for all from Grotsnik.
+Kombi Skorchas for all
Here's a deathstar by Dakkamite that is scary in assault and ultra-tough with 2W 2+/5++ models. Normally, I wouldn't consider this deathstar to be viable due to its lack of mobility. However, the battlewagon (souped up because I had extra points) helped to address this issue. It also gives them an extra layer of protection and as an added bonus, allows them to fire 8 skorchas out of it. They do have to be careful not to get surrounded and then wrecked, however.
1000 Spartan Hamminators Space Marines (by ace101)
Sevrin Loth
Vulkan
8x TH/SS Terminators
Land Raider Spartan
1010
This deathstar as suggested by ace101 is a little over 1K. Not a big difference at this level, but if I really wanted to get it under 1K, I'd drop 1 hamminator and give the Land Raider Spartan Armoured Ceramite, thus making it practically immune to melta. Another option would be to replace Vulkan with 1 vanilla chaplain and another 2 hamminators or 1 librarian with terminator armour + storm shield and 1 more hamminator.
In any case, this unit will hit like a rock and is fairly durable. It's biggest issue is its lack of mobility, but the Land Raider Spartan addresses that issue fairly well. The LRS can hold a whopping 25 standard models (or 12 terminators)!!! It is also one the toughest tanks around, with an option for Armoured Ceramite which makes it practically immune to meltas.
1000 Bad Company Blood Angels (by Tomb King)
19 Death Company, 1000 pts
1 Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, 150 pts
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
Total roster cost: 1000pts
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility.
There have been several people interested in this Wraith Bomb deathstar build. I finally decided to choose the build suggested by Tomb King.
Tomb King wrote:Yes the conceal gives a 5+ cover. The then stacks with shrouding and stealth. Making the 2+ cover save. Then fortune from eldrad gives them the re-roll to save. The list is seriously resilient. Still haven't decided if it should run plasma or missle for the commander. They ignore cover for all shooting. Have hit and run. The neurochip can help with counter attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn, or tank hunter. Ide like to see this list vs Paladin star. I seriously think it eats it for lunch. The toughest match-up for this list would probably be the tau.
I thought nob bikers only got 4+ cover? 3+ was when they turbo boosted in 5th ed iirc?
Also, I wouldn't run that loadout on bikers myself. i would drop squigs, add at least 1 pole on a normal nob in case both bosses go by wayside, and add a PK over the squigs on a normal nob. 3-4 s8-9 attacks per round for 25 points is better than 2 extra s9-10 attacks for 30.
I think 20 flesh hounds might be a better bet then 10 blood crushers, flesh hounds is 40wounds versus blood crushers 30, attacks on charge (ignoring things like rage) is flesh hounds 40 and blood crushers 30,
The Swarmlord (bio) + 3 Tyrant Guard w/ LW and 1 Tyranid Prime w/ BS&LW, DS, AG, TS, Regen
OR
2 Tyranid Primes w/ BS&LW, DS, AG, TS, Regen and 9 warriors with the same loadout.
I think 'Nids have the deadliest deathstar potential.
The problem with Nid deathstars is that they're slow (though the Swarmlord is capable of deep striking with Gate of Infinity, it can't assault that turn, letting your opponent either charge you first or just run away) also they don't take up enough points to fit in this 100 pt mini-tournament.
Eldenfirefly wrote: How about 2 Destroyer lords with 12 wraiths? Its actually 2 units, but lots of necron players use the D lord wraithwing as a deathstar.
CSM also like to use either the Khorne Juggerlord with 5 chaos spawn or the Nurgle T6 chaos lord on a bike with black mace, with Sorceror on bike plus 10 nurgle T6 bikes. (A bit similar to nod bikers unit).
And since we allow Draigo, then for CSM, we can have Typhus + Abaddon + 10 Nurgle marked terminators with the works! lol
I would classify the necron wraithwing as a mini-star. It's got good speed, good resiliency and good hitting power. However, it's resiliency and hitting power is no where near that of a true deathstar.
The problem with the Khorne Juggerlord is that its resiliency and hitting power isn't all that great IMO. It is another mini-star who uses the spawns mainly as a delivery vehicle for its Lord. However, the spawns aren't all that killy and the lord will die easily to some of the other more killy units. His 3+/4++ isn't all that impressive.
Nurgle bikers also have the problem of offense and resiliency. While they have respectable firepower, they are in trouble if you catch them in assault and T6 with only a 3+ and 1W isn't all that hard to take down with both shooting or assault. This is what I would call a "tweener" deathstar. It's decent in most categories - mobility, resiliency, assault and firepower - but great in none of them, at least not compared to the other deathstars on my list. Most of the deathstars are my list excel in 2 or even more categories.
I will have to look into Abaddon + Nurgle + terminators. That may be a viable deathstar.
MarkyMark wrote: Horrors, you dont need three conjurations really, you have enough LOS to protect from shooting and once they are in CC PSA has no effect, therefore I would suggest the other Loci's. Transmaj... etc and locus of change. d3 horror auto hits is a small fallback but it would be nice to see some palies die to it!, also the sd6 could be good rather then their base str3, yes its random but its chaos!. Personnaly I would have chosen a DP to lead/guard the horrors and hope for iron arm mainly for EW, palies will have a field day insta killing the LoC :(
Daemon prince, mark of tzeentch, wings, armour, mastery level 3 2 greater rewards, 1 lesser reward 355pts
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of conjuration exalted reward (grimourie)
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF)
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF) locus of transmogfrication
Herald, lvl 3 (two rolls on divi, one on tzeentch for FF)
20 Horrors, blasted standard
1k pts dead
I would be hoping for iron arm enfeeble and possibly endurance (fnp for the horrors), greater rewards got to be plus 1 wound IWND and 4 plus FNP or re roll invul's and staff of change as the lesser gift for the DP and misfortune (or a couple at least) forewarning and of course prescience for the horror squad.
I am very interested in the outcome of this as I think, with enfeeble , the palies and tau will take a beating from one shooting phase. Also interested in the eldar vs daemons match up, this will all be down to dice though as runes will laugh at the daemons PSA and buffs debuffs :(
And dont forget, all the heralds shooting can be prescision on a 6, see that warding stave or hammer dude?, assign a few wounds to him, the tau dude with hit n run, assign a few to him etc.
The loci of conjuration is more for redundancy purposes. With Precision Shots, it's somewhat easy to snipe out the Herald even with his LOS rolls. But I suppose I only need 2 for redundancy. However, I do like the Portaglyph because every D6 horrors you generate will also generage 2D6 shots. And if the enemy deathstar is focusing on your newly generated unit, then he isn't shooting at your main unit.
As for the DP, I suppose it's a matter of preference. With 3 powers, there is about a 50/50 chance you may get Iron Arm. Also, Enfeeble and Endurance is very useful as well. I chose the LoC because he is more survivable (extra wound, cannot insta-kill him with S10 attacks), Divination powers such as Misfortune, Forewarning, Prescience and Precognition are great, he can be S8 guaranteed with the lesser gift and he is cheaper than the DP even when all decked out.
I will probably start playing my first games as early as Friday.
I'd like to apologize in advance if some of my replies appear kind of blunt, but I'm just going to give my honest opinions of some of these deathstars.
bocatt wrote: I tried to make a Deathstar with Abaddon, but he would just get kited to eternity without someway to take a transport that can fit him and his ten man strong super termi unit
On the other hand, I made a Dark Angels deathstar that has delivery system, and superb amounts of killyness
Company Master in Terminator armor with Lion's Roar, Digital Weapons, Mace of Redemption and Storm Shield
joining 5x Deathwing Terminators, sarge with TH/SS in front, one guy with AC, deep striking (mostly for twinlink and splitfire the turn they arrive)
5x TH/SS Deathwing Terminators, one with CRM in a Land Raider Redeemer with Multi Melta
1000 points
Not too familiar with DA. Don't have my codex currently (it is "on loan" to one of my friends). These look more like mini-stars to me rather than true deathstars.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Dragowing can get kited as well. Similar really. Both are terminator unit deathstars.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are we including tactics in this game instead of just charging the 2 deathstars into each other? Because a CSM biker unit can just keep at range and dakka the opponent to death if it doesn't want to charge in. (Although for the pink horrors unit, it will choose to charge in cos it is out dakkaed).
Tactics wil definitely be involved. That is why I feel that Tau may do well. Move, shoot and run away 3D6" (due to Shadowsun). If you don't have the firepower to hurt them or mobility to get to them, you are going to have a very hard time against them. The seer council may do well as well because they are guaranteed to be able to assault the shooty enemies on Turn 2. You just can't run away from bikers that can move 48"!!! The pinkstar may do well because re-rollable 2++ just don't give a f**k about anything and the LoC "bodyguard" can do the rest.
In any case, you can be sure all these deathstars will use tactics to their fullest.
bocatt wrote: I tried to make a Deathstar with Abaddon, but he would just get kited to eternity without someway to take a transport that can fit him and his ten man strong super termi unit
On the other hand, I made a Dark Angels deathstar that has delivery system, and superb amounts of killyness
Company Master in Terminator armor with Lion's Roar, Digital Weapons, Mace of Redemption and Storm Shield
joining 5x Deathwing Terminators, sarge with TH/SS in front, one guy with AC, deep striking (mostly for twinlink and splitfire the turn they arrive)
5x TH/SS Deathwing Terminators, one with CRM in a Land Raider Redeemer with Multi Melta
1000 points
It is also three units ,
I think a truer deathstar would be this (keeping in line with FOC)
Librarian, lvl2 psyker, terminator armour, force axe, monster slayer digital weapons melta bombs
Chaplain, terminator armour, mace of redempation, digital weapons, melta bombs
Techmarine plasma pistol, PFG, digital weapons, melta bombs
Hmmm....looks formidable. However, mobility again will be a problem. The deathstar doesn't have good shooting and piss-poor mobility (like so many of the Imperial terminator deathstars with the exception of Draigowing, who has good shooting to make up for its lack of mobility). I really don't see this deathstar as a viable deathstar though I'm sure it'll kick ass in assault.
BayneMor wrote: Farseer runes fortune guide
Wraithguard x10
Warlock conceal
Shadowsun (Tau HQ that gives shrouded and stealth)
should be less than 1000 points.
A little tweaking for this one.
Baron Sathonyx instead of Shadowsun.
Gives them stealth (for a 4+ cover with a conceal 'lock) defensive grenades (IIRC) and hit and run. And a 2++ at the front for soaking damages. Add Fuegan for a 2+ and his I7 str 5 ap2 axe.
I'd also add eldrad going for divination book powers so aiming for the 4++ and re-rolls.
Eldrad
Wraithguard + Conceal lock
Fuegan
Baron
Farseer + Fortune (hopefully being just beneath 1k)
So this ends up with avge T6, 3+, 4++, 4+cover, 2++ at the front. With all the saves being re-rollable and Fuegan for challenges. Damage output still isn't the best, but you need an insane amount of anything to take it down. I've run this (at 2k - double FOC) without the Baron - No one has managed to kill it in a game so far. Anything within 12" is dead.
The Baron makes this unit infinitely better now that it can get out of combats it doesn't want to be in. However, it still doesn't change my opinion. It's got excellent resiliency. However, it still doesn't perform very well in assault and it's shooting output is still too low. It'll hurt elite units but it won't do much against another true deathstar.
gpfunk wrote: I'll be rooting for the Paladins. Though in these specific match ups I don't know how well they'll do.
Go pallies!
They definitely are one of the more "balanced" deathstars. However, I think they may have their work cut out for them against some of the "newer" deathstars.
Azrael
Librarian, Lvl 2, Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex, rolling Divination or Telepathy
10x Ravenwing Black Knights
and
Allied Sevrin Loth for full access to Biomancy
Bikes have a 3+, 4++, and possible 2+ cover from Invisibility.
Sevrin Loth + Rad Grenade for T2 enemies (Haemorrage)
Azrael blind+Mace of Redemption Blind on -1 I from Stasis Grenades
Hit and Run for disengaging, shooting, and re-charging ( Take Furious Charge warlord trait)
4+ DTW from Sevrin Loth.
3 Carnifexes with TLDevs/BioPlasma and ScyTals (or Crushing Claws) (add in Toxin Sacs and Frag Spines to taste) with 2 tooled out Primes. Still relatively slow but very tough.
Hey man, for the Nob Bikers Deathstar, consider dropping Kombi-Skorchas on those four klaw-less Nobs and giving them Big Choppas instead - this could give them a better chance to wound some of the big, nasty deathstar units.
Might be worth dropping a Biker and some kit to max out those Power Klaws as well. Bikers are pretty meh in CC without klaws.
As much as I championed them I doubt it :(. Against the Tau I reckon a white wash, but against the eldar everything will be psyhic tests on 3d6 and DTW on 5 plus (from the horror squad itself a 4plus) and against dragio wing again 5plus from the heralds and LoC and 4 plus from the squad DTW's.
Now just want to see what the deal is. Nob Bikers could potentially kite a slow melee deathstar (not that any propa Ork would do tha). I honestly reckon these sorts of shenanigans might need to be curtailed.
I know this isn't exactly a "death star" but I wanted to get my vote in.
Huron Blackheart 160
Sorcerer, level 3, spell familiar 125
3 Obliterators, mark of nurgle, veterans of the long war 237
3 Obliterators, mark of nurgle, veterans of the long war 237
3 Obliterators, mark of nurgle, veterans of the long war 237
As much as I championed them I doubt it :(. Against the Tau I reckon a white wash, but against the eldar everything will be psyhic tests on 3d6 and DTW on 5 plus (from the horror squad itself a 4plus) and against dragio wing again 5plus from the heralds and LoC and 4 plus from the squad DTW's.
Which is why i'm glad i'm not betting money
But as a fellow demon player its what i'm going with unless Necrons make it in!
Azrael
Librarian, Lvl 2, Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex, rolling Divination or Telepathy
10x Ravenwing Black Knights
and
Allied Sevrin Loth for full access to Biomancy
Bikes have a 3+, 4++, and possible 2+ cover from Invisibility.
Sevrin Loth + Rad Grenade for T2 enemies (Haemorrage)
Azrael blind+Mace of Redemption Blind on -1 I from Stasis Grenades
Hit and Run for disengaging, shooting, and re-charging ( Take Furious Charge warlord trait)
4+ DTW from Sevrin Loth.
I'd like to see something similar but with everyone on a bike:
Interrorgator Chaplain - Bike, Portarack, Mace of Redemption, Digital Weapons
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, Conversion Field, Digital Weapons
2xTechmarine - Servoharness, Bike, PFG (1 with Auspex)
10 Black Knights with 2 or 3 grenade launchers
T5, 3+ Armor, 4++ (3++ turboboost) Cover, 4++ Invulnerable
7-8 twinlinked Plasma Talons, 2 twinlinked plasma pistols, 2 flamers
Zealot (Fearless, reroll all misses on charge), 5+ DtW, Hit and Run
When you go in to charge then the techmarines can peel off if the opponent doesn't have a 4++ invulnerable already
Grenades can drop T, WS, I by one each time you charge.
lambsandlions wrote: If these are only fighting other deathstars why do the tau battle suits need target locks? What other unit will they be fighting? Maybe change those to counter fire defense systems to protect against the assault because I am sure they will win any shooting fight. I also wonder if you want so many missile pods or to double up on plasma rifles. Plasma rifles will do more damage against every army but demons.
I don't know if I think demons or tau will win. I feel like it will all come down to a single turn when demons fails to get their 2++ save. Tau can sit in cover and get a 2+ cover save at all times which I think makes them the favorite.
I wonder if eldar needs to do anything to actually fight demons or just let demons generate powers and kill themselves from runes of warding?
My current prediction, tau beats everyone but demons, eldar beats everyone but tau, demons beats everyone but eldar, GK loses. Rock paper scissors for the win.
I'm trying to make the deathstars Take-All-Comer's. Basically, I'm trying not to build deathstars tailored to fight other deathstars, but rather, balanced deathstars that can adapt to any situation and against any opponent. In such case, target locks are vital to the Tau deathstar especially so that they can deal with more than 1 unit. Keep in mind that many of these deathstars can split up and some deathstars may consist of multiple units (or produce "free" units in the case of daemons with the Portaglyph).
I like the fireknife load-out (missile pod + plasmas) once again because I think it is the most TAC build for Tau. Missiles let them play the range game (6" move + 36" range and then jump back 3D6") and keep away from the majority of enemy shooting, which is mide-range. Plasmas are for dealing with TEQ's but sometimes will put you at risk from enemy shooting. All guns can be made twin-linked from the Command & Control Node.
Eldar does have the advantage of Runes of Warding.
It may turn out to be a rock-paper-scissors type of matchup. We will see.
Darnath Lysander
Librarian - TDA, SS (Roll on biomancy/telepathy)
10x Assault Terminators - TH/SS Land Raider Redeemer - MM & HK missile
1000
Notes: Load-out on the LR is tentative, they're just points fillers. Might consider dropping the gear for Lvl 2 on libby.
I see some potential here, though I much prefer the LRC because it can fit more terminators. The LR does give it some mobility and also a very resilient transport, but the downside is that the unit would have to combat squad if they want to go into the LR. At least with the LRC, you can fit 1 combat squad and both characters in it, though from my experience, a unit of 5 hamminators is actually somewhat lacking in hitting power.
This is a bubble-deathstar. It's got some potential.
Just a quick note, iirc ever-living should work even if the Royal Court gets swept -- they're still 'removed as casualties,' which should trigger ever-living. So they're even more resilient, and their lack of fearless doesn't hurt them as much.
Darnath Lysander Librarian - TDA, SS (Roll on biomancy/telepathy)
10x Assault Terminators - TH/SS Land Raider Redeemer - MM & HK missile
1000
Notes: Load-out on the LR is tentative, they're just points fillers. Might consider dropping the gear for Lvl 2 on libby.
I see some potential here, though I much prefer the LRC because it can fit more terminators. The LR does give it some mobility and also a very resilient transport, but the downside is that the unit would have to combat squad if they want to go into the LR. At least with the LRC, you can fit 1 combat squad and both characters in it, though from my experience, a unit of 5 hamminators is actually somewhat lacking in hitting power.
This is a bubble-deathstar. It's got some potential.
Yeah, I see, definately switch the Redeemer with LRC. Also a change that I don't know if you saw was to switch Lysander with Vulkan to get the MCTHs; this would make them much more deadly, and would also enhance the MM incase a hard target/vehicle in encountered. Sucks how you can't fit 12 terminators in a terminator DT; if FW is an option, i could switch with a CAR (Caestus Assault Ram), since its a flyer; assault vehicle; and has a melta pie-plate, and can fit more than 8 terminators.
I think everyone will have slightly varied opinions... I think you are better off just deciding on a few and playing them otherwise you will never face them off on eachother....lol
I'm new to this board but I've followed your battle reports for a while. I'm just wondering why the Eldar Harliestar(Eldrad and Fuegan) didn't make it?
It's a good deathstar. The problem with it is its mobility, or rather, lack of. Eldrad causes them to lose Fleet and they have practically no shooting. To me, that is a recipe for failure.
Sorry, I'm going for the Seer Council over the Harliestar.
BayneMor wrote: Farseer runes fortune guide
Wraithguard x10
Warlock conceal
Shadowsun (Tau HQ that gives shrouded and stealth)
should be less than 1000 points.
A little tweaking for this one.
Baron Sathonyx instead of Shadowsun.
Gives them stealth (for a 4+ cover with a conceal 'lock) defensive grenades (IIRC) and hit and run. And a 2++ at the front for soaking damages. Add Fuegan for a 2+ and his I7 str 5 ap2 axe.
I'd also add eldrad going for divination book powers so aiming for the 4++ and re-rolls.
Eldrad
Wraithguard + Conceal lock
Fuegan
Baron
Farseer + Fortune (hopefully being just beneath 1k)
So this ends up with avge T6, 3+, 4++, 4+cover, 2++ at the front. With all the saves being re-rollable and Fuegan for challenges. Damage output still isn't the best, but you need an insane amount of anything to take it down. I've run this (at 2k - double FOC) without the Baron - No one has managed to kill it in a game so far. Anything within 12" is dead.
The Wraithguardstar is especailly potent if you get the power that lets you overwatch at full BS. You can't take a 2nd farseer though (unless it's double FOC)
Which means I usually just take the Codex powers, because Fortune > all.
Right. For the purposes of these battles, only single-FOC deathstars are considered.
Apart from the Jetseer Council you can also try a Beastpack but it'll be 800 points max (if you only use 1 FoC)
Vect
Baron
Eldrad
Beastpack
-5 Beast Masters
-4 Khymeraes
-8 Razorwing Flocks
I like this. Though from my experience, precision shots pretty much kill this deathstar dead. In order for this unit to work, you need Invisibility. Now the question becomes, should I go for book powers for Invisibility and Prescience or should I go for codex powers for Fortune and Guide? Also, Vect being only AP3 hurts this unit.
So it's got good mobility and good hitting power. The main question comes down to its resiliency, but this deathstar does have potential to do well. I will add it to my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: How are you going to set up this scenario? I believe the board size should be fairly small to avoid the faster deathstars kiting the slower ones. Imagine Farsight running across the board in circles shooting the draigowing in pursuit.
I'd probably do it on a normal 6x4 table.
I think I may impose some type of penalty system against deathstars who are stalling for time. You either have to be advancing towards the enemy or making an attempt to get into range to shoot at them (though you can run away afterwards). Maybe -50VP's for each turn spent stalling? Got to think about that one.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: How are you going to set up this scenario? I believe the board size should be fairly small to avoid the faster deathstars kiting the slower ones. Imagine Farsight running across the board in circles shooting the draigowing in pursuit.
Isn't one of the important things about a deathstar how they can control a game? I think it should be a 4x6 table with 24" between starting positions. If Farsight can kite Draigowing, then Farsight should win that matchup. (On the other hand, Draigowing has a lot of shooting too).
Agreed, though deployment will just be standard deployment types.
However, don't under-estimate Draigowing. Keep in mind that Grand Strategy gives them Scout, so they basically have a 36" starting shooting range.
Draigowing is only lacking in mobility which is why I think they'll suffer in most of these match ups. In situations where they can't force the issue, they will struggle. The farsight bomb will be able to completely outrun them with their assault moves while peppering them with fire. Same with the Seer Council. I think that they have a fair shot if they get average rending with their psycannons and the Tau Bomb gets less than average assault jumps.
Still...go paladins! Draigo must carve his name in Farsight's chest!
Deathstars aren't competitive in sixth edition unless a TO specifically designs their tournament to buff them. A veteran player playing a balanced army will beat a less experienced player playing a deathstar in this edition. Sixth edition does cater well though to what I often refer to as a quasi deathstar. There is no one unit now that can single handedly win a game but there are definitely some units that can go a long ways. For instance Dark Harliestar looked promising... Too many points though sunk in one unit that can only hold one objective at the end of a game. Maybe a true deathstar will eventually emerge but the direction I see in sixth edition so far is not a good indication.
I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
I'm rooting for the Tau, but I don't think they can win. They'll struggle to kill even the Baron in a single round of shooting (let alone all the other 3+/4++ rerollable). Once in combat, the Seer Council will sweep them.
Against the Daemons, they'll always be snap-firing at the LOC. Even with monster-hunter, hitting on 6's is too much for them (unless he flubs the gift rolls and doesn't get 3+ armor, reroll invuls, or fnp). Once in combat, the LOC stands a decent chance of sweeping them.
As dumb as it would be, I think it would be funny if two deathstars managed to do nothing against each other. There are at least 2 units that can get a 2++ re-rollable, so it's at least possible.
16 psycannon shots will be enough to make a dent by the time they hit combat, also I guess you will be able to use grand stratagy? Then give them scout or re-rolls to wound so they become even better
Siphen wrote: I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
I'm rooting for the Tau, but I don't think they can win. They'll struggle to kill even the Baron in a single round of shooting (let alone all the other 3+/4++ rerollable). Once in combat, the Seer Council will sweep them. Against the Daemons, they'll always be snap-firing at the LOC. Even with monster-hunter, hitting on 6's is too much for them (unless he flubs the gift rolls and doesn't get 3+ armor, reroll invuls, or fnp). Once in combat, the LOC stands a decent chance of sweeping them.
As dumb as it would be, I think it would be funny if two deathstars managed to do nothing against each other. There are at least 2 units that can get a 2++ re-rollable, so it's at least possible.
I believe it all depends on who matches up against who. Tau, if they got into fusion Blaster range, would wreck the hammerstar's LR, and then jump away and keep kitting, but Deldar match up good against Tau. I've never seen nor played against a draigowind so i don't really know how that might end up.
To sum it all up, whatever the matchup is might inherently favor one deathstar or another. I might be biased, but IMHO, the Hammernators might be one of the best in here, since they nothing outside of Farsight or the Disco-court can hurt AV14, which might also have ap3 flamers or lots of bolter dakka; not to mention that it might also keep up with the JSJ farsightbomb and the jetseers.
Draigowing would eat the landraider, either through psycannon shots or the hammers in combat, then with weight of attacks would kill of the hammernators.
At a recent tournie I played a salamanders guy, my psycannons wreked 2 raiders (one was a spartan) then by getting the charge I beat of 10 hammernators in combat, although with slightly lucky rolls. But WS5 4 attacks each on the charge, couple of hammer atttacks and then 2++ from stave, 4++ from swords, is no slouch.
I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
If so, ditto for Nob Bikers.
Also, another potential Ork Deathstar to consider
Ghazghull
Grotsnik
x10 MANz +Cybork for all from Grotsnik.
+Kombi Skorchas for all (or not)
=885 points.
Also are allies allowed at all? I'd love to see the above with an allied Painboss instead of Grotsnik and maybe Old Zogwart for gaks and giggles.
Or maybe, just ditch Grotsnik and take Old Zogwart anyway. I mean every other deathstar seems to be based on some jerkass special character, which we now have like a 50% chance of squiggifying...
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++, Orb
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
Harbringer of Despair w/ Veil of Darkness
Harbringer of Despair
Harbringer of Despair
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
This is how a supercourt looks like, two rerolls, Veil for mobility, 3 AP1 templates even when getting charged, all but 3 guys dont have a 3++, you have 5 scythes and 5 shackles...
All units in night scythes. Nothing to get shot at turn 1, pick and choose objectives to place warriors on. Spam Tesla weaponry. It might be more powerful to replace 2 of the night scythes with a doom scythe and boost the warriors as well but either way it's a pretty solid (if completely cheesy) list
skyfi wrote: I thought nob bikers only got 4+ cover? 3+ was when they turbo boosted in 5th ed iirc?
Also, I wouldn't run that loadout on bikers myself. i would drop squigs, add at least 1 pole on a normal nob in case both bosses go by wayside, and add a PK over the squigs on a normal nob. 3-4 s8-9 attacks per round for 25 points is better than 2 extra s9-10 attacks for 30.
They do have 4+ cover, which becomes 3+ if they turbo-boost.
How about some Big Choppas?
If I drop the 2 attack squigs on the warbosses, would you rather get:
1. 1x Power Klaw and 1x Bosspole on a nob biker.
of
2. 4x Big Choppas, 1x Bosspole and 1x Kombi-skorcha?
MarkyMark wrote: I think 20 flesh hounds might be a better bet then 10 blood crushers, flesh hounds is 40wounds versus blood crushers 30, attacks on charge (ignoring things like rage) is flesh hounds 40 and blood crushers 30,
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++, Orb
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
Harbringer of Despair w/ Veil of Darkness
Harbringer of Despair
Harbringer of Despair
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
How are you attaching Harbringer of Eternity from another court to this unit?
IIRC, the way to add second chronometron to unit is to use someCryptekDude The Blinded from latest Imperial Armour.
I've played/played against Ravenwing, but despite it's mobility, I think the 3+ without access to an invulnerable saves leaves them, well, vulnerable similar to Death Company. The Tau and Nob Bikers work around this by being multi-wound and/or having 4+ cover save.
For a bonus round, have them face Doom of Malantai in a mycetic spore.. Spirit Leech + Psychic Shriek + a couple of pot shots from the spore... Wonder how many of these deathstars will be gimped by this what... 200 pt counter.
Looking forward to this, should be interesting. I did something similar a while back with Paladins and the Harliestar, this is much grander in scope though.
DAaddict wrote: For a bonus round, have them face Doom of Malantai in a mycetic spore.. Spirit Leech + Psychic Shriek + a couple of pot shots from the spore... Wonder how many of these deathstars will be gimped by this what... 200 pt counter.
130 points! But the most wounds he's likely to do is 8 if triple 6s are rolled for Ld with leech, minus cover saves. Same again for shriek just with the psychic test and shot at BS but no covers. Plus you've got to hope he drops in within range. A lot of ifs and buts. Doom is great when he works but isn't the most reliable in my experience, though a great psychological weapon.
For a start, doom in a pod auto loses as he wont be on table turn 1 same for the necron list with the flyers.
The doom will hurt the turn it comes in but palies have invul to save them, horrors have invul (and possibly 2plus re rolling 1's) jetseer has good cover save and Tau have expenable drones
DAaddict wrote: For a bonus round, have them face Doom of Malantai in a mycetic spore.. Spirit Leech + Psychic Shriek + a couple of pot shots from the spore... Wonder how many of these deathstars will be gimped by this what... 200 pt counter.
Might not work for everything, like a Farisight or Hammerstar, they have enough shootin to plunk wounds of the doom. They dont have to get near it. Also, can units embarked in a vehicle get spirit leeched?
6 DCA's + 6 crusaders, with coteaz, an ordo xenos inq with prescience, and a tech marine ( or two, at least one with rad grenades)
DCA's have mauls + axes, so 18 attacks base (24 on charge)
either at I 6 str 6 (can get to str 10 by adding more hammerhand via techmarines) ap 4, all rerolling hits
or I1 str 5 (again able to increase) rerolling hits,
this plus whatever coteaz rolls on the tables (or keep his HH for another +1str)
the unit has 6 ablative 3++ wounds as well, which also contribute 6 more axe attacks at str 4, and a 5++ after they die, coteaz and/or the techmarine can also tank wounds with tehir artificer armour, giving the techmarine a warding staff also gives you a cheap challenge monster in the unit with a 2++ AND the str 8 ap1 servo arm attacks
and your enemy is -1T, so if you buff the mace attacks to str 8, bam, ID all around for t5 guys,
all this costs
180pts for the DCA+crusaders
55pts ordos xenos w prec
100pts coteaz
125pts techmarine w rad + warding staff
so 460 pts,
Automatically Appended Next Post: best part is the cheapest part of the deathstar is the DCA's and crusaders, you can take two units of them, and if someone focuses all their shooting on the first, just move the caracters into the 2nd unit
gameandwatch wrote: Though it certainly lacks mobility, and I dont have my codex in front of me:
Max Grotesques, liquifiers, aborration, flesh gauntlet, urien upgrade
Urien
Duke
Eldrad
or something to that ilk, though I think it falls way short of 1000
Sorry, no dice.
Eldrad can only Divination powers on this unit. He can't cast Fortune or other eldar powers. Then you have the issue of mobility, resiliency, no shooting and hitting power.
BTW that deathstar there is about 900-pts!
ace101 wrote: @Jy2: if you haven't done the Hammerstar analysis, I'd like to update that entry:
Just a tuning effort to further cheese the entry, and make the shooting more powerful.
Vulkan does make the unit marginally better but you will have to give up the beatstick Lysander. BTW, Vulkan is only AP3 so will have problems hurting 2+ models.
Azrael
Librarian, Lvl 2, Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex, rolling Divination or Telepathy
10x Ravenwing Black Knights
and
Allied Sevrin Loth for full access to Biomancy
Bikes have a 3+, 4++, and possible 2+ cover from Invisibility.
Sevrin Loth + Rad Grenade for T2 enemies (Haemorrage)
Azrael blind+Mace of Redemption Blind on -1 I from Stasis Grenades
Hit and Run for disengaging, shooting, and re-charging ( Take Furious Charge warlord trait)
4+ DTW from Sevrin Loth.
Damn, just played against Sevrin -head Loth last night. Lol. He was in a 50-man blob squad.
Only had 1 S8 shooting in my army - soulgrinder phelgm - which I shot at his blob squad (with Sevrin in front). He failed all but 1 Look-Out-Sirs and then proceeded to roll a for his 2++ Invuln save. Splat.
Damn, you can get 10 biker units? I like it! I will add this to the Deathstars Under Consideration list.
rigeld2 wrote: 3 Carnifexes with TLDevs/BioPlasma and ScyTals (or Crushing Claws) (add in Toxin Sacs and Frag Spines to taste) with 2 tooled out Primes. Still relatively slow but very tough.
Respectable. Decent, albeit short-ranged firepower. Will get outshoot by practically any other "shooty" deathstars. Slow but at least has some shooting to make up for it. Scary in combat assuming they live long enough to strike back against enemy deathstars. Resiliency questionable at best due to lack of invuln's or good cover saves.
This is another bubble-deathstar. It does have some potential but is mediocre at best IMO.
Dubd797 wrote: I don't know about anyone else but I am pumped for this! Brilliant idea
Thanks.
Dakkamite wrote: Hey man, for the Nob Bikers Deathstar, consider dropping Kombi-Skorchas on those four klaw-less Nobs and giving them Big Choppas instead - this could give them a better chance to wound some of the big, nasty deathstar units.
Might be worth dropping a Biker and some kit to max out those Power Klaws as well. Bikers are pretty meh in CC without klaws.
I think I will swap out the Attack Squigs for some big choppas. I've already got 7 PK's in that unit, but thanks.
As much as I championed them I doubt it :(. Against the Tau I reckon a white wash, but against the eldar everything will be psyhic tests on 3d6 and DTW on 5 plus (from the horror squad itself a 4plus) and against dragio wing again 5plus from the heralds and LoC and 4 plus from the squad DTW's.
Yeah, they're not perfect, but their complement - the LoC - just may surprise you. Under the right conditions (i.e. rewards and psychic powers), that guy can fight an entire deathstar all by himself!
Dakkamite wrote: Now just want to see what the deal is. Nob Bikers could potentially kite a slow melee deathstar (not that any propa Ork would do tha). I honestly reckon these sorts of shenanigans might need to be curtailed.
I'm very tempted to include nob bikers into the fray. Of all the other deathstars not on my "list", I think nob bikers most warrant inclusion.
They will, however, have major problems against Draigowing, but can still beat them on a good day.
VorackTheGrim wrote: I know this isn't exactly a "death star" but I wanted to get my vote in.
Huron Blackheart 160
Sorcerer, level 3, spell familiar 125
3 Obliterators, mark of nurgle, veterans of the long war 237
3 Obliterators, mark of nurgle, veterans of the long war 237
3 Obliterators, mark of nurgle, veterans of the long war 237
I actually love this combination, though I'm thinking Abaddon in there instead or perhaps 2 2+/3++ sorcerers.
Too bad it's not actually a deathstar list, but rather, a mini-star.
Eldrad using own powers (see fortune...)
Karandras
Vect
6 harlequins with kisses
2 harlequins with kisses and fusion pistols
Troupe master with power axe
Shadowseer with kiss.
All this meets up to 940 odd points, and 600pts of it one 3 models.
Resiliency. stealth plus shrouded leads to a constant 4+ cover, 2 + in cover. Not that survivable. Add in fortune *which WILL go off, he can try twice, rolls 3 dice and picks lowest, and RoW and RoWitnessing cancel each other out* and that become a lot better. Both Karandras and Vect can tank at the front of the unit with there 2+/+ re-rollable. Karandras at front to LOS onto vect for AP2. Speed is an issue but karandras lets his unit infaltrate closer. Then movement and fleet should catch up.
In combat on the charge thats 36 rending wounds which re-roll 1's and to wound *doom will also go off...*, 7 AP3 attacks that wound on 3's and will hit on 3's, re-rolling. 7 stength 8 AP2 hits and 3 woud on 2's ignore armour hits. In other words it hits like a brick. Hit and run means we can keep FC and keep shooting in with fusion pistols + vects ap2 blast. So, what do you think, im sure you have already thought of them.
I honestly think POM + 9 shrikes w/ LW&BS, TS, AG, DS is the strongest deathstar. They are mobile, have weight of dice in shooting and bring everyone to less or equal to their initiative value in combat. Not many deathstars put out mass s8 shooting, just cc.
I just cant see the LoC doing well agains the palaies, he may be toughness 6 but with perferred enemy and possible str10 the palies will force weapon him to death without eternal warrior.
For me Jim, try one game with the DP (three biomancys) and one game with the LoC, see if there is much difference!. Enfeebling the palies and tau is huge as the massed str6 becomes instal kill on failed saves (palaies and tau being 2 wounds, eldar doesnt matter as much)
skyfi wrote: I thought nob bikers only got 4+ cover? 3+ was when they turbo boosted in 5th ed iirc?
Also, I wouldn't run that loadout on bikers myself. i would drop squigs, add at least 1 pole on a normal nob in case both bosses go by wayside, and add a PK over the squigs on a normal nob. 3-4 s8-9 attacks per round for 25 points is better than 2 extra s9-10 attacks for 30.
They do have 4+ cover, which becomes 3+ if they turbo-boost.
How about some Big Choppas?
If I drop the 2 attack squigs on the warbosses, would you rather get:
1. 1x Power Klaw and 1x Bosspole on a nob biker.
of
2. 4x Big Choppas, 1x Bosspole and 1x Kombi-skorcha?
Of those I vote for option 2. 4x big choppas 1 boss pole and 1x kombi skorhca but I would edit it as thus
4x big choppa, 1 boss pole, 1 grot orderly
(for that FNP re roll when painboy or a boss going to eat dust).. I don't think extra skorcha will make up more points than that re-roll might save. I also think wazdakka is a liability with no cybork body. Having 2 warbosses means 1 can leave the unit and charge into paladins and absorb overwatch, while the other and the bikers just coast on in.
"The List" I originally posted edited and revised:
zaak wrote: I honestly think POM + 9 shrikes w/ LW&BS, TS, AG, DS is the strongest deathstar. They are mobile, have weight of dice in shooting and bring everyone to less or equal to their initiative value in combat. Not many deathstars put out mass s8 shooting, just cc.
Not bad...durability may be an issue: POM is only 3W with 3+, and the Shrikes are more or less expendable shooters, 1W 5+ isnt very tough. This isn't really a deathstar, more like a glass cannon.
zaak wrote: I honestly think POM + 9 shrikes w/ LW&BS, TS, AG, DS is the strongest deathstar. They are mobile, have weight of dice in shooting and bring everyone to less or equal to their initiative value in combat. Not many deathstars put out mass s8 shooting, just cc.
Not bad...durability may be an issue: POM is only 3W with 3+, and the Shrikes are more or less expendable shooters, 1W 5+ isnt very tough. This isn't really a deathstar, more like a glass cannon.
I see where you're coming from. If we are talking about deathstars acting independently without army support then warriors with 3w can eat up some rending shots, flamer templates and bolter like shots. Not much s8 shooting comes from deathstars. Only a couple need to get through (4-5 + POM) to make short work of just about anything. The problem with warriors and shrikes is T4 but there's no battlecannons or vindicators in deathstars... maybe orbital bombardment.
Shrikes are 3W T4. You're thinking Gargoyles (but those are 1W 6+ iirc)
Just looked at the profile again, just noticed the 3 in the wounds section (i must have sped read)
That makes the unit overall more durable, but the 5+ is still a hard knock on them; if they had a 4/3+, then we are in the 'might be a deathstar' category, but they are a glass cannon nonetheless.
Automatically Appended Next Post Saw someone make a DA deathstar list with Loth, and that got me thinking, what list could i make?
Here it is...
Spoiler:
HQ
Magister Servin Loth(205pt.) The Armour of Selket; Force Weapon; Bolt pistol; Frag grenades; Krak grenades
Forgefather Vulkan He'Stan (190pt.) Artificer armour; Bolt Pistol; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Kesare's Mantle; The Spear of Vulkan; Digital weapons; The Gauntlet of the Forge;
MarkyMark wrote: I just cant see the LoC doing well agains the palaies, he may be toughness 6 but with perferred enemy and possible str10 the palies will force weapon him to death without eternal warrior.
For me Jim, try one game with the DP (three biomancys) and one game with the LoC, see if there is much difference!. Enfeebling the palies and tau is huge as the massed str6 becomes instal kill on failed saves (palaies and tau being 2 wounds, eldar doesnt matter as much)
He can do well because of his re-rollable 2++ save. With 5 Lvl 3 Divination psykers, there's a very good chance to get Forewarning. Combined with the Grimoire, he's getting a re-rollable 2++ save. He's got the Staff of Change (lesser gift) for S8. In combat, challenge Draigo to take him out of the picture. Then just start insta-killing some paladins. BTW, he becomes even more vicious with Precognition, re-rolling all hits and wounds. And woe to the pallies if one of the Heralds should get Misfortune. Without a psyfleman dread there, they only have a 1/3 chance to deny it.
The DP can be just as good if he gets Iron Arm but that's about a 50/50 chance only. Enfeeble + horror shooting can definitely be nasty. It really makes you want to add Coteaz in with the paladins and pray he gets Precognition for some re-rollable 2+ saves of his own. But to do that, you'd probably have to downgrade Draigon to a normal Grandmaster w/psycannon (which is actually pretty good!) and get rid of some of the upgrades. Hey....I actually like that!
zaak wrote: I honestly think POM + 9 shrikes w/ LW&BS, TS, AG, DS is the strongest deathstar. They are mobile, have weight of dice in shooting and bring everyone to less or equal to their initiative value in combat. Not many deathstars put out mass s8 shooting, just cc.
zaak wrote: I honestly think POM + 9 shrikes w/ LW&BS, TS, AG, DS is the strongest deathstar. They are mobile, have weight of dice in shooting and bring everyone to less or equal to their initiative value in combat. Not many deathstars put out mass s8 shooting, just cc.
Not bad...durability may be an issue: POM is only 3W with 3+, and the Shrikes are more or less expendable shooters, 1W 5+ isnt very tough. This isn't really a deathstar, more like a glass cannon.
I see where you're coming from. If we are talking about deathstars acting independently without army support then warriors with 3w can eat up some rending shots, flamer templates and bolter like shots. Not much s8 shooting comes from deathstars. Only a couple need to get through (4-5 + POM) to make short work of just about anything. The problem with warriors and shrikes is T4 but there's no battlecannons or vindicators in deathstars... maybe orbital bombardment.
And because there are plenty of points leftovers, I'll even throw in the Doom
Doom - Spore
875
They have good mobility and are excellent in assault. Sorry to say, but their shooting just cannot compete. You're looking at 27 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds (against T4) and only 1.5W will go through against 2+ models.
Compare that to 3 dakkafexes - 36 TL-shots, 27 hits, 22.5 wounds (against T4) and 4W will go through against 2+ models.
Compare to the Pinkstar shooting (with Prescience) - average 67 TL-shots, 50 hits (actually more, but I'm basing on BS3 only), 42 wounds (against T4), at least 7 2+ models will fall (most likely more if you factor in BS4 by the Heralds).
As for resiliency, you're looking at 30 Wounds of units (not including the Doom) with only 5+ saves (1 with 3+). They're only T4 as well.
Against shooting by the Pinkstar (assuming they will get cover), they will lose:
67 TL-shots, 50 hits, 42 wounds, that's 28W after cover (more like 25W if you factor in the PoM's 3+)!
Tau is just as bad, as they are twin-linked (Command & Control Node) and ignore cover (Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite).
Really, the resiliency of this unit is piss-poor compared to the other deathstars. They won't even last through 2 turns of shooting!
As much as I championed them I doubt it :(. Against the Tau I reckon a white wash, but against the eldar everything will be psyhic tests on 3d6 and DTW on 5 plus (from the horror squad itself a 4plus) and against dragio wing again 5plus from the heralds and LoC and 4 plus from the squad DTW's.
Which is why i'm glad i'm not betting money
But as a fellow demon player its what i'm going with unless Necrons make it in!
I actually think that they will do well. The only problem will be that Tau will outrange them (and then jump back) and the seer council with 2+ re-rollable Invisible cover can resist their shooting (as well as screw with their shooting with Runes of Warding).
I'd like to see something similar but with everyone on a bike:
Interrorgator Chaplain - Bike, Portarack, Mace of Redemption, Digital Weapons
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, Conversion Field, Digital Weapons
2xTechmarine - Servoharness, Bike, PFG (1 with Auspex)
10 Black Knights with 2 or 3 grenade launchers
T5, 3+ Armor, 4++ (3++ turboboost) Cover, 4++ Invulnerable
7-8 twinlinked Plasma Talons, 2 twinlinked plasma pistols, 2 flamers
Zealot (Fearless, reroll all misses on charge), 5+ DtW, Hit and Run
When you go in to charge then the techmarines can peel off if the opponent doesn't have a 4++ invulnerable already
Grenades can drop T, WS, I by one each time you charge.
Edit: Corrected Zealot
Not bad. Better mobility without Sevrin....but have you seen the guy? He is a psychic monstrosity and way OP. That guy is a huge force-multiplier. I really don't know what Forgeworld was thinking when they designed him.
Thariinye wrote: Just a quick note, iirc ever-living should work even if the Royal Court gets swept -- they're still 'removed as casualties,' which should trigger ever-living. So they're even more resilient, and their lack of fearless doesn't hurt them as much.
Yeah, if they die before they get swept, then they can come back. However, if they get swept before they die, then no.
So it's better to kill off your characters rather than to have them survive and then the unit swept. However, if the unit doesn't get swept, then there's a 50/50 chance you killed him for nothing.
ace101 wrote: Yeah, I see, definately switch the Redeemer with LRC. Also a change that I don't know if you saw was to switch Lysander with Vulkan to get the MCTHs; this would make them much more deadly, and would also enhance the MM incase a hard target/vehicle in encountered. Sucks how you can't fit 12 terminators in a terminator DT; if FW is an option, i could switch with a CAR (Caestus Assault Ram), since its a flyer; assault vehicle; and has a melta pie-plate, and can fit more than 8 terminators.
You could if you had the Land Raider Spartan, but that LR is 300pts (maybe more). It can house only 10 terminators so you still may have to drop a couple of guys to fit everyone in, but it's definitely worth it to keep everyone together and protected. Also, the librarian with Null Zone is a good option agasint deathstars with Invuln's.
Sevrin Loth is another good option, though he is more expensive than the librarian and I don't know if he can get Null Zone. Null Zone is the shiznit.
The point of Loth is that he combines with Rad Grenades with guaranteed Enfeeble to reduce T by 2, which is very useful for ID'ing things like Paladins, Crisis Suits and Biker Nobz with the Black Knight plasma rapid-fire.
Mobility:B The mobility of the Pinkstar itself is poor. However, the Lord of Change is highly mobile. His mobility will help the army, especially against the likes of Tau.
Shooting:A- Shooting is the strong point of this army. As a matter of fact, if everything is clicking (i.e. all their psychic powers go off), the Pinkstar may have the best pure shooting of all the deathstars here. The LoC himself has very good shooting. This is definitely a shooty deathstar.
Then there's the psychic powers that makes its shooting much, much more potent. Prescience gives them re-rolls to hit. Perfect Timing will take away enemy cover saves. This can be huge against eldar with re-rollable 2+ cover due to Invisibility and also to Tau gun drones with 2+ cover from Shadowsun's Stealth + Shroud. Then you've got Misfortune which will help against 2+ save models as well as Fortune.
There are 2 limitations to the Pinkstar's shooting. First, it is susceptible to psychic defense such as Runes of Warding and then to Deny the Witch. Second is its rather limited range. The range issue shouldn't be a factor except against Tau. Runes of Warding, however, may play a big part in these battles.
Assault:B The Pinkstar has poor assault. However, what it does have is excellent "anti-assault". If the right powers go off, this unit can be nigh invincible to both shooting and assault with a re-rollable 2++ Invuln! And then you've got the LoC. He can be one nasty mofo in combat with S8 hits and good resiliency. He can also be used to tarpit a unit in combat if you give him the right powers. The LoC makes an excellent complement for the Pinkstar as a counter-assault unit, but you can also play him very aggressively against certain armies like Tau.
Intangibles:B The greatest Intangibles to this army are its psychic powers. Psychic powers are a huge force-multiplier and this army has got 5 of them. The downside is that their powers may get denied and Runes of Warding can stop them right in their tracks. The rewards and exalted gifts are also big force-multipliers. Get the right gift and the LoC will be twice, maybe even 3 times harder to kill. The Grimoire can make a unit sensational at times or it can screw the daemons pretty badly as well.
If not for Runes of Warding the fickle nature of daemons, I'd probably give them an A for Intangibles.
Overall Grade:B
1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau
Spoiler:
Mobility:A JSJ. Jump Shoot Jump. The trademark of Tau mobility and strategy. I can't say enough how important this is to the Tau army. Thanks to Shadowsun, who should always be the Warlord in this deathstar, now they can jump 3D6" in the Assault phase. That is just crazy good! With the exception of the LoC and the seer council, none of the deathstars here will be able to catch them.
Shooting:A+ The best shooty deathstar, possibly in all of 40K. As if their shooting with JSJ wasn't good enough, they've got wargear that makes their shooting even better. The Command and Control Node basically makes all of their shooting twin-linked. Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite let's them ignore cover. The Puretide Engram Neurochip gives them Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter. And Target Locks let them split-fire and shoot at different units. Moreover, they are not affected by Night-fight thanks to Blacksun Filters.
Assault:B- Assault will forever remain a Tau weakness. However, for the Farsight-bomb, it isn't so bad. JSJ will let them get away from many assault units. The Puretide Engram Neurochip can make them Stubborn in combat and Vectored Retro-thrusters give them Hit & Run to get out of combat just in time to shoot the enemy next turn. Iridium Armor gives 1 bodyguard 2+ saves where you can allocate normal hits against. While they suck in assault, they can easily avoid it and even survive it.
Intangibles:B+ Tau has got a whole bag of tricks here. Shadowsun provides the unit with Stealth and Shroud, so if the unit can get cover, it's going to be 2+ cover. They then put all the gun drones with 2+ cover in front to absorb incoming fire. Shadowsun also let's the unit jump 3D6" in assault instead of the normal 2D6". They can twin-link their guns, ignore cover saves, shoot at different targets, become Stubborn in combat and then get out of combat as well. Probably their main weakness is their lack of psychic defense.
Overall Grade:A-
1000 Draigowing Grey Knights
Spoiler:
Mobility:C The knights can get Scout from Grand Strategy but otherwise, there is not very much mobility here. Fortunately, they have their shooting to help make up for their dismal mobility.
Shooting:A I'm actually using the Draigo-less paladin build, swapping out Draigo for a psycannon Grandmaster and Coteaz instead. Now they can get Prescience and if they're lucky, Perfect Timing (ignores cover) or Misfortune (target has to re-roll successful saves). There's also an extra psycannon now from the Grandmaster. That's 20 twin-linked S7 rending shots. Hell yeah! The only drawback is their range, which is only 24". This isn't a really a problem except possibly against Tau.
Assault:A+ An army with all force weapons, WS5, Prescience and multiple Hammerhands? Can I get another....hell yeah!
By the ways, if Coteaz gets and casts Forewarning (4++ Invuln for the unit), that means the guys with the Nemesis Force Swords will be getting 2+/3++ saves in assault.
Intangibles:A- Draigowing is a tried-and-true deathstar who has had much success. They are ultra-resilient with excellent assault and excellent shooting as well. Psychic powers are also a boon for this unit. More importantly, they are less reliant on them compared to the Pinkstar. Thus, Runes of Warding won't affect them as much. They will dare assault units to assault them and can shoot it out with the best of them thanks to their ability to absorb punishment. They are a perfectly balanced deathstar with the only exploitable weakness being their lack of mobility. Moreover, while it doesn't matter in my test game, they can be made scoring. This is a huge boon in objectives-based games and almost an autowin for missions like the Relic.
Overall Grade:B+
1000 Jetseer Council Deldar
Spoiler:
Mobility:A+ Without a doubt, the fastest deathstar ever. Nuff said.
Shooting:C+ Pretty poor, though Destructors, if placed properly, can do some damage. Overall, this unit isn't going to win by its shooting.
Assault:B+ Though it lacks power weapons, the assault capabilities of this unit is often under-estimated. It kills with volume of quality attacks. Guide/Prescience gives the WS5 warlocks accuracy. Doom and witchblades means that any hit is almost guaranteed to wound. Misfortune will force the enemy to re-roll saves. Invisibility means enemies are hitting them on 5's. Fortune makes them highly durable in combat and every warlock is a character and so can accept/issue challenges. All these buffs add up to make them much more effective in combat than most people think. While they like the quantity of attacks of some of the other deathstars, they make up for it with quality of attacks....and then they can Hit & Run out of combat just to use Destructor on you and charge right back into combat.
Intangibles:A The seer council is all about its intangibles. They've got so many tricks up their sleeves it's not even funny. They have awesome, force-multiplying psychic powers, the best psychic defense in the game currently and jaw-dropping resiliency (how about re-rollable 2+ cover?). Their weakness used to be that you can tie them up in combat, but by allying in the Baron, that is no longer a weakness as they can get out of combat with Hit & Run. Runes of Witnessing cancels out enemy Runes of Warding so the only real psychic defense against them are the Space Wolf Rune Priests. Finally, they've got the mobility to get to anywhere they need to. No unit is safe from them.
And he's already beaten me once with his Tau before. Thus, he would make the perfect test partner to go up against my paladins and daemons.
1000 Pinkstar Daemons
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (Re-roll Invuln's, Fleshbane), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Misfortune, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Perfect Timing, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Useless power, Prescience, Flickering Fire
I deploy my horrors in a line with the Heralds behind them.
I hide my LoC behind the ruins.
As soon as I finished my deployment, I begin to realize just how bad it was. Crap....I think I may have just gave my opponent the game! Oh well, too late....he's already deploying his guys now.
My opponent infiltrates his army about 18" away from my guys.
Overview of our deployment and his infiltration. Now I am out in the open and just waiting for him to stick it up my a**.
They then rain hell on my horrors. I make a respectable number of saves. However, I still lose 11 horrors and 2 of my Heralds.
They then jump back 15".
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 0, Tau: 344
Daemons 1
I cast Prescience on my horrors. I use the Grimoire on the LoC. However, it reduces him to a 6++ Invuln instead!
LoC flies up and then runs forwards, hoping for the protection of the central terrain. Horrors need to spend the Movement getting back into coherency and cannot even fire because I need to run in the Shooting phase to get back into coherency as well.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Tau 2
Tau twin-links their guns (they would do this every turn) and take away cover from my LoC. Because of my pitiful 6++ save only (re-rollable), I lose my LoC. Target lock missile pods also shoot down 2 pink horrors.
Tau then jumps back 7".
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 0, Tau: 667
Daemons 2
I am fighting to the very last warpspawn. Horrors cast Perfect Timing on Farsight's unit and Prescience on themselves. He denies one of my Herald's shooting!
Horrors move up.
Shooting only kills 3 drones.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 36, Tau: 667
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Tau 3
Tau advances.
Fortunately, I got off the Grimoire last turn. Tau shooting only takes out 3 horrors this turn.
And now he's back behind cover for the 2+ cover save.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 36, Tau: 694
Daemons 3
I cast Prescience and Perfect Timing. Unfortunately for me again, the Grimoire fails! Ughh! Well, that's game.
I manage to shoot down 5 more drones, but I can't even manage to break 100 VP's.
That was a complete domination by Tau. Going second really hurt the daemons because they did not get a chance to cast any of their powers. Then I made a huge mistake in deployment, leaving my guys and more importantly, my Heralds, vulnerable to the Tau onslaught. Finally, it didn't help that I failed with the Grimoire 2 out of the 3 turns! This is one of the reasons why daemons will have a hard time winning consistently. When they're on, they are crazy good and can beat any army out there. But when they're not, well, this is the result as this game demonstrated.
Oh well, I thought my daemons would have problems against Tau. I was right.
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (3+, Hellfire Gaze), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Prescience, Useless power, Flickering Fire
Daemons got some really good powers this time. Short of Perfect Timing, which really isn't necesary in this matchup, I got all the powers that I wanted. Moreover, I got 2 Forewarnings, thus allowing me to buff up the Invuln's of both units. This is when Tzeentch is at its best - Forewarning + Grimoire = stupid, what-the-heck-was-GW-thinking, invincible, cannot-be-killed units. The best you can do is to hope they fail their Grimoire or to go after the unit without the Grimoire's protection. Hellfire Gaze couldn't come at a better time for the LoC. That's a S8 AP1 lance shot for the LR Spartan.
Space marine strategy will be to go straight after the horrors. Forget about shooting...it won't do much of anything. It just doesn't have the volume of shots to do much to the daemon army. Daemon strategy will be to just destroy the LR (probably via assault) and then to just dakka the crap out of those terminators.
Sevrin casts Invisibility on the Spartan, which moves 12" and then pops smokes. 2+ cover, baby.
Daemons 1
Powers cast: Precognition and Forewarning on Big Bird, Prescience and Forewarning on the Pinkstar. Misfortune fails to go off on the LR (denied) and the Grimoire reduces the LoC's Invuln to 5++.
Horrors move back 6". The LoC swoops forwards 24".
The Warp Storm would do nothing of significance the entire game.
Big Bird shoots at and pens the Spartan with his Hellfire Gaze. However, the Spartan would pass its 2+ cover save.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Space Marines 2
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
Sevrin casts Iron Arm (+2 S/T), Endurance on the unit and changes his armour into a 2++ invuln. He does, however, suffer perils while casting one of his abilities. Only 1W remaining.
Spartan goes around the LoC and then moves flat-out another 6" to get dangerously close to the horrors. I admit that this is a mistake on my part. I forget that there is a risk to being so close to the enemy....
Daemons 2
Daemons cast all their psychic powers. For the 2nd straight turn, the Grimoire fails to go off and instead reduces my LoC to 5++ once again.
Now I remember about the "risk". Horrors move forwards to try to surround the LR. The LoC lands and prepares to assault.
Horrors run but don't run far enough to completely enclose the LR. The LoC fires at the Spartan but fail to pen or glance this time.
He then charges.
Fortunately for the marines, he explodes the tank and I am able to place the entire unit on the table.
15 horrors get caught in the explosion. Only 4 dies.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 295, Space Marines: 36
Actually, things aren't too bad for the marines. They're actually in a pretty good position. Neither units of daemons are protected by the Grimoire currently. All the marines need to do is to multi-charge, putting Sevrin in a challenge against the LoC. Then kill some pink horrors and let Daemonic Instability do the rest. If they get lucky, Daemonic Instability may even be able to wipe out the LoC!
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Space Marines 3
Sevrin casts Iron Arm (+1 S/T only) and 2++ Invuln on himself and Endurance on the unit. It's a shame daemons aren't Fearless. Otherwise, he would cast Invisibility and Terrify instead.
Vulkan flames the horrors, hitting 6 and only killing 2.
Marines than multi-charge. Sevrin issues a challenge. Big Bird accepts.
Big Bird fails to stomp a mudhole in Sevrin's face as he passes all 5 Invuln saves. Terminators and Vulkan then proceed to kill 5 horrors.
6 more horrors would then succumb to Daemonic Instability! However, the LoC passes his DI test on a 4!!!
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 295, Space Marines: 135
Daemons 3
This is the turn everything goes right for the daemons. They successfully casts all their powers, including Misfortune on the marines who fail to deny. The Grimoire goes off on the horrors for some re-rollable 2++ shenanigans.
With Misfortune, the LoC is able to take out Sevrin. Paladins pass all their saves. However, they cannot penetrate the re-rollable 2++ saves of the horrors.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 500, Space Marines: 135
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Space Marines 4
Overview of the top of Turn 4. Things aren't looking too good for marines.
Big Bird goes super-saiyan this turn. Precognition + Misfortune = 4 dead terminators. Horrors also put 2W on Vulkan. Marines remain frustrated at invincible horrors.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 660, Space Marines: 135
Daemons 4
Again, everything goes off for daemons. They are just crazy when this happens!
Vulkan challenges the LoC to try to stem the blood loss. Marine goal currently is just to try to survive a potential tabling.
His sacrifice is not in vain as the terminators survive another turn of combat.
Even with several mishaps - 2 failed grimoires - the daemons are still very strong. But when all 4 wheels are turning (as was the case in the 2nd half of the battle), daemons are just ridiculously crazy-good. I really think that they are unbeatable with the right psychic powers and when they are making their grimoire tests. Re-rollable 2++ is just crazy. I really don't know what the heck GW was thinking when they designed this codex. Other than the turn they charged, even the almighty hamminators were helpless in combat.
The LoC is perhaps the single most powerful character in the game today. I kid you not. He wiped out the entire army all by himself. The horrors didn't kill a single thing (well, they did put 2W on Vulkan, who the LoC insta-killed anyways). Of course it helped that the terminators were stuck in battle with a unit they couldn't really hurt, but the offensive potential of the LoC (and his resiliency) is just sic! Marines did have a small chance to win it on the turn they assaulted, but they just couldn't kill the LoC through Daemonic Instability.
If your going with the second list for gk, then its going to be a shooting game, and I think the gk will pull it off with the 20 psycannon shots with re-rolls.
Not sure about tau but Im guessing most of the guards have a 3+ save and no invun?
with jsj, Im guessing there will be no combat as the pallistar is to slow to catch the tau. I will be a shooting game.
tuiman wrote: If your going with the second list for gk, then its going to be a shooting game, and I think the gk will pull it off with the 20 psycannon shots with re-rolls.
Not sure about tau but Im guessing most of the guards have a 3+ save and no invun?
with jsj, Im guessing there will be no combat as the pallistar is to slow to catch the tau. I will be a shooting game.
I'm going with the new GKGM/Coteaz list. That's 5 psycannons with Prescience.
Tau will have 2+ cover! Shadowsun gives the unit Stealth + Shrouded. As long as they remain in cover, they'll going to be damn hard to shoot down. First the GK's need to get past 13 drones with 2+ cover!!!
GK's can compete in the shooting game....if Coteaz can get Perfect Timing. Otherwise, it may be a victory for Tau (at least that's my prediction).
I was thinking about this myself, going to the unusual routes, SM and BA Bikers generally, but I came to this:
Lucius Lvl 3 Slaaneshi Termie Sorceror: Power Axe, Force Staff, Spell Familiar, 4++, VotLW
20 Noise Marines: 2 Blast Masters, 17 Sonic Blasters, all CCW's, Icon, Champion has Doom Siren and PF/LC, VotLW
Just under 1000pts
Lots of models and FNP, I5 for combats, 3 Champs for challenges, slow but heavy shooting to whittle down enemies, Sorceror boosts all Sonic Weapons. Combat is reasonable but won't stand to Paladins.
Sorry, I'm a little behind on my evaluations of the deathstars. I will get to them all eventually. I actually like your MANz deathstar but won't probably evaluate it until tomorrow.
Tonight I have 2 games planned, both of which will involve Tau.
ace101 wrote: Yeah, I see, definately switch the Redeemer with LRC. Also a change that I don't know if you saw was to switch Lysander with Vulkan to get the MCTHs; this would make them much more deadly, and would also enhance the MM incase a hard target/vehicle in encountered. Sucks how you can't fit 12 terminators in a terminator DT; if FW is an option, i could switch with a CAR (Caestus Assault Ram), since its a flyer; assault vehicle; and has a melta pie-plate, and can fit more than 8 terminators.
You could if you had the Land Raider Spartan, but that LR is 300pts (maybe more). It can house only 10 terminators so you still may have to drop a couple of guys to fit everyone in, but it's definitely worth it to keep everyone together and protected. Also, the librarian with Null Zone is a good option agasint deathstars with Invuln's.
Sevrin Loth is another good option, though he is more expensive than the librarian and I don't know if he can get Null Zone. Null Zone is the shiznit.
I checked the psykers FAQ, and Loth knows every codex power except Gate & Dome, so he can use Null, Invuln spell, and force weapon in the same turn. He is a beat stick, and you could model the fw as an ax to get AP2
The model has a axe anyway Ace, so no issue there!. I have the model just never used his rules
Yep you are right Jy2, as long as you pass the grimoure test you are fine!, if not you are screwed.
Used LoC tonight, had the insta kill warlord trait took out 3 wraiths then DP swept the destroyer lord, then insta killed two spyders and DP insta killed 6 scarab bases and another lord was swept,
In second game against a farsight bomb, they killed 6 horrors as I went to ground for 3 cover then LoC flew over, took all the shooting not losing a wound, took one wound on overwatch (thanks to 4 plus FNP) then challenged and insta killed farsight and swept the unit. The staff of change blowing up characters is also fun!. Yes he is a beast, just the force weapons worry me a lot! Hopefully your grimoure rolls are good
This thread is like a reverse look at fifth edition by way of genuflecting. Deathstars can't cut the mustard anymore. I would rather see Batreps showcasing cutting edge armies. It really doesn't matter which deathstar is the best.
Dozer Blades wrote: This thread is like a reverse look at fifth edition by way of genuflecting. Deathstars can't cut the mustard anymore. I would rather see Batreps showcasing cutting edge armies. It really doesn't matter which deathstar is the best.
Nobody is forcing you to read this thread.
I can say that I, for one, am very interested in seeing the outcome of these match-ups. Deathstars may not be as viable as they were in fifth edition, but that doesn't mean they can't still curbstomp armies that aren't prepared for them. Moreover, having read many of jy2's battle reports, I know that this bloodbath will be well worth watching.
I've played/played against Ravenwing, but despite it's mobility, I think the 3+ without access to an invulnerable saves leaves them, well, vulnerable similar to Death Company. The Tau and Nob Bikers work around this by being multi-wound and/or having 4+ cover save.
Did you even look at the list?
Azrael gives them a 4+ invuln, as well as rolling Telepathy for Invisibility.
Sevrin Loth can also cast Endurance on them for FNP.
Azrael kills their mobility, too. The 4++ is nice, don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure it's worth it (particularly given Azrael is over 200 points with no Eternal Warrior...). Personally, I'd rather take an attached Techmarine on a bike with a PFG. That also opens up the option of a second Librarian rolling Telepathy for Invisibility.
Damn, just played against Sevrin -head Loth last night. Lol. He was in a 50-man blob squad.
Only had 1 S8 shooting in my army - soulgrinder phelgm - which I shot at his blob squad (with Sevrin in front). He failed all but 1 Look-Out-Sirs and then proceeded to roll a for his 2++ Invuln save. Splat.
Damn, you can get 10 biker units? I like it! I will add this to the Deathstars Under Consideration list.
You can, and conga-line them into CC. Not entirely sure why he put Sevrin in the front really, since he becomes majority T3 and then all he has is a 2+ save, which he is LOS ing. Surely the point of the blob is to protect him Or was it Ordnance?
I think RW are a dark horse here because people seriously underestimate Hit and Run. They have the mobility and assault potential to catch the shooty Deathstars and the mobility and guns to kite, shoot, and counter-charge the assault deathstars, and then hit and run out to do it all over again. They do hugely hinge on Invisibility though, I have no idea what BKs are like without it (I've rolled invisibility in every game for the past 17 games... what) and are not as durable having only 1w each. Blind is also a surprise, although I have no idea how it works in multiple initiative units. Does it test on majority or what?
It might be worth it to take 2 Librarians with PFGs instead of Azrael, because Invisibility is that important.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Azrael kills their mobility, too. The 4++ is nice, don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure it's worth it (particularly given Azrael is over 200 points with no Eternal Warrior...). Personally, I'd rather take an attached Techmarine on a bike with a PFG. That also opens up the option of a second Librarian rolling Telepathy for Invisibility.
How does Azrael kill their mobility? They still can move 12", scout, and turbo 12", all they have to do is conga-line and remain in coherency. Azrael is majority T5 in the bike unit, and he won't be in challenges- that will be left to Sevrin.
The problem is the 3" invuln bubble only stretches out so far, and having two more Bike ICs pushes the points over 1000.
Dozer Blades wrote: This thread is like a reverse look at fifth edition by way of genuflecting. Deathstars can't cut the mustard anymore. I would rather see Batreps showcasing cutting edge armies. It really doesn't matter which deathstar is the best.
Some people just can't have fun with this game.
Those people can go powerlist and pay 2 win against each other in a dark basement somewhere, preferably far away from myself.
The problem is there's no such thing as cutting edge armies. The closest thing to it is Tony Kopach's ThunderStorm list with 3x Thunderfire and 3x Stormtalon.
I think there are plenty of cutting edge armies with the plethora of new codices that are being released now. It's all about balance now which these types of armies are sorely lacking... Too many points tied up in some uber army of one units.
It might be worth it to take 2 Librarians with PFGs instead of Azrael, because Invisibility is that important.
What about a Blood Angel ally:
Interrogator Chaplain - Bike, Auspex, Digital, Portarack, Mace of Redemption
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, Digital, PFG (Try to get Invisibility)
Techmarine - Bike, PFG
BA Librarian - Lvl 1, Bike, (Biomancyx2 Enfeeble or Endurance would be best)
10 Black Knights with 2 grenade launchers
T5, 3+ Armor, Auspex, 4++ (3++ turboboost, 2++ with invisibility) Cover, 4++ Invulnerable, 5+ FNP 8 twinlinked Plasma Talons
Zealot (Fearless, reroll all misses on charge), at least a 5+ DtW, Hit and Run
Techmarine could break off prior to the first charge to suck up overwatch
I wanted a Sanguinary priest instead of the Techmarine for FnP and Furious Charge but they only affect BA
Jy2 check pg 38 jink, no 3+ cover for nob bikers. 4+ when turbo boost now but they always get 4+ from exhaust fumes. Not huge but wanted you to know so #s aren't skewed.
Dozer Blades wrote: I think there are plenty of cutting edge armies with the plethora of new codices that are being released now. It's all about balance now which these types of armies are sorely lacking... Too many points tied up in some uber army of one units.
What exactly is a 'cutting edge' army? The only 'cutting edge' I see is 3 ABarges with Destroyer Lord Spam and Helldrakes.
It might be worth it to take 2 Librarians with PFGs instead of Azrael, because Invisibility is that important.
What about some Blood Angel allies:
Interrogator Chaplain - Bike, Mace of Redemption
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, PFG (Try to get Invisibility)
BA Sanguinary Priest - Bike
BA Librarian - Bike, Epistolary (Biomancy)
10 Black Knights with 2 grenade launchers
T5, 3+ Armor, 4++ (3++ turboboost, 2++ with invisibility) Cover, 4++ Invulnerable, 5+ FNP 8 twinlinked Plasma Talons
Zealot (Fearless, reroll all misses on charge), at least a 5+ DtW, Hit and Run
Could drop the Mace or a BK and squeeze in a 2nd PFG
Edit - Nevermind I just saw the BAFAQ that FNP and Furious Charge is BA only
I'm not sure what the BA bring to the table. Azrael can get the Furious Charge warlord trait already. Also it's single force org chart. Sevrin Loth gives FNP from endurance, because Sang Priests don't work on Dark Angels.
I'm not sure what the BA bring to the table. Azrael can get the Furious Charge warlord trait already. Also it's single force org chart. Sevrin Loth gives FNP from endurance, because Sang Priests don't work on Dark Angels.
Biomancy on a Bike... Sevrin Loth is definitely a better Psyker.
Mobility:B The mobility of the Pinkstar itself is poor. However, the Lord of Change is highly mobile. His mobility will help the army, especially against the likes of Tau.
Shooting:A- Shooting is the strong point of this army. As a matter of fact, if everything is clicking (i.e. all their psychic powers go off), the Pinkstar may have the best pure shooting of all the deathstars here. The LoC himself has very good shooting. This is definitely a shooty deathstar.
Then there's the psychic powers that makes its shooting much, much more potent. Prescience gives them re-rolls to hit. Perfect Timing will take away enemy cover saves. This can be huge against eldar with re-rollable 2+ cover due to Invisibility and also to Tau gun drones with 2+ cover from Shadowsun's Stealth + Shroud. Then you've got Misfortune which will help against 2+ save models as well as Fortune.
There are 2 limitations to the Pinkstar's shooting. First, it is susceptible to psychic defense such as Runes of Warding and then to Deny the Witch. Second is its rather limited range. The range issue shouldn't be a factor except against Tau. Runes of Warding, however, may play a big part in these battles.
Assault:B The Pinkstar has poor assault. However, what it does have is excellent "anti-assault". If the right powers go off, this unit can be nigh invincible to both shooting and assault with a re-rollable 2++ Invuln! And then you've got the LoC. He can be one nasty mofo in combat with S8 hits and good resiliency. He can also be used to tarpit a unit in combat if you give him the right powers. The LoC makes an excellent complement for the Pinkstar as a counter-assault unit, but you can also play him very aggressively against certain armies like Tau.
Intangibles:B The greatest Intangibles to this army are its psychic powers. Psychic powers are a huge force-multiplier and this army has got 5 of them. The downside is that their powers may get denied and Runes of Warding can stop them right in their tracks. The rewards and exalted gifts are also big force-multipliers. Get the right gift and the LoC will be twice, maybe even 3 times harder to kill. The Grimoire can make a unit sensational at times or it can screw the daemons pretty badly as well.
If not for Runes of Warding the fickle nature of daemons, I'd probably give them an A for Intangibles.
Overall Grade:B
1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau
Mobility:A JSJ. Jump Shoot Jump. The trademark of Tau mobility and strategy. I can't say enough how important this is to the Tau army. Thanks to Shadowsun, who should always be the Warlord in this deathstar, now they can jump 3D6" in the Assault phase. That is just crazy good! With the exception of the LoC and the seer council, none of the deathstars here will be able to catch them.
Shooting:A+ The best shooty deathstar, possibly in all of 40K. As if their shooting with JSJ wasn't good enough, they've got wargear that makes their shooting even better. The Command and Control Node basically makes all of their shooting twin-linked. Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite let's them ignore cover. The Puretide Engram Neurochip gives them Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter. And Target Locks let them split-fire and shoot at different units. Moreover, they are not affected by Night-fight thanks to Blacksun Filters.
Assault:B- Assault will forever remain a Tau weakness. However, for the Farsight-bomb, it isn't so bad. JSJ will let them get away from many assault units. The Puretide Engram Neurochip can make them Stubborn in combat and Vectored Retro-thrusters give them Hit & Run to get out of combat just in time to shoot the enemy next turn. Iridium Armor gives 1 bodyguard 2+ saves where you can allocate normal hits against. While they suck in assault, they can easily avoid it and even survive it.
Intangibles:B+ Tau has got a whole bag of tricks here. Shadowsun provides the unit with Stealth and Shroud, so if the unit can get cover, it's going to be 2+ cover. They then put all the gun drones with 2+ cover in front to absorb incoming fire. Shadowsun also let's the unit jump 3D6" in assault instead of the normal 2D6". They can twin-link their guns, ignore cover saves, shoot at different targets, become Stubborn in combat and then get out of combat as well. Probably their main weakness is their lack of psychic defense.
Overall Grade:A-
1000 Draigowing Grey Knights
Mobility:C The knights can get Scout from Grand Strategy but otherwise, there is not very much mobility here. Fortunately, they have their shooting to help make up for their dismal mobility.
Shooting:A I'm actually using the Draigo-less paladin build, swapping out Draigo for a psycannon Grandmaster and Coteaz instead. Now they can get Prescience and if they're lucky, Perfect Timing (ignores cover) or Misfortune (target has to re-roll successful saves). There's also an extra psycannon now from the Grandmaster. That's 20 twin-linked S7 rending shots. Hell yeah! The only drawback is their range, which is only 24". This isn't a really a problem except possibly against Tau.
Assault:A+ An army with all force weapons, WS5, Prescience and multiple Hammerhands? Can I get another....hell yeah!
By the ways, if Coteaz gets and casts Forewarning (4++ Invuln for the unit), that means the guys with the Nemesis Force Swords will be getting 2+/3++ saves in assault.
Intangibles:A- Draigowing is a tried-and-true deathstar who has had much success. They are ultra-resilient with excellent assault and excellent shooting as well. Psychic powers are also a boon for this unit. More importantly, they are less reliant on them compared to the Pinkstar. Thus, Runes of Warding won't affect them as much. They will dare assault units to assault them and can shoot it out with the best of them thanks to their ability to absorb punishment. They are a perfectly balanced deathstar with the only exploitable weakness being their lack of mobility. Moreover, while it doesn't matter in my test game, they can be made scoring. This is a huge boon in objectives-based games and almost an autowin for missions like the Relic.
Overall Grade:B+
1000 Jetseer Council Deldar
Mobility:A+ Without a doubt, the fastest deathstar ever. Nuff said.
Shooting:C+ Pretty poor, though Destructors, if placed properly, can do some damage. Overall, this unit isn't going to win by its shooting.
Assault:B+ Though it lacks power weapons, the assault capabilities of this unit is often under-estimated. It kills with volume of quality attacks. Guide/Prescience gives the WS5 warlocks accuracy. Doom and witchblades means that any hit is almost guaranteed to wound. Misfortune will force the enemy to re-roll saves. Invisibility means enemies are hitting them on 5's. Fortune makes them highly durable in combat and every warlock is a character and so can accept/issue challenges. All these buffs add up to make them much more effective in combat than most people think. While they like the quantity of attacks of some of the other deathstars, they make up for it with quality of attacks....and then they can Hit & Run out of combat just to use Destructor on you and charge right back into combat.
Intangibles:A The seer council is all about its intangibles. They've got so many tricks up their sleeves it's not even funny. They have awesome, force-multiplying psychic powers, the best psychic defense in the game currently and jaw-dropping resiliency (how about re-rollable 2+ cover?). Their weakness used to be that you can tie them up in combat, but by allying in the Baron, that is no longer a weakness as they can get out of combat with Hit & Run. Runes of Witnessing cancels out enemy Runes of Warding so the only real psychic defense against them are the Space Wolf Rune Priests. Finally, they've got the mobility to get to anywhere they need to. No unit is safe from them.
Just played 2 games today - Tau vs Grey Knights and Tau vs Daemons. Stay tuned for the BR's coming out tomorrow (Saturday).
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I think everyone will have slightly varied opinions... I think you are better off just deciding on a few and playing them otherwise you will never face them off on eachother....lol
Don't worry. I still plan to play primarily my original 4 deathstar lists, though there may be a "guest" deathstar matchup between the original 4 and armies in the Deathstars Under Consideration list.
BaconUprising wrote: I want the horrors to win butm afraid I'm gonna have to say the tau will win...
Tau is definitely very strong. Daemons have potential, but they can hurt their chances with even 1 bad roll of the dice (especially if they roll bad on the Grimoire).
bocatt wrote: If I'm reading this right, the Dais of Destruction acts like a regular raider so 10 man capacity
Would:
Asdrubael Vect
Drazhar
7x Incubi + Klaivex with all the upgrades
all on a Dais of Destruction (that's still only ten models)
for 921 pts, be worth throwing at someone? It's not the full 1000, but man can they rip and tear
Not viable.
They've got speed. They've got hitting power. But they've got no resiliency whatsoever. You're talking about T3 guys with only 3+ saves. When Vect fails even his 1st save, chances are that he's getting insta-killed by S6 horror shooting, S6/7 Tau shooting or S7 psycannons. Drazhar's got no Invuln against rending psycannons or Tau plasma. This is truly a glass jaw deathstar.
gpfunk wrote: Draigowing is only lacking in mobility which is why I think they'll suffer in most of these match ups. In situations where they can't force the issue, they will struggle. The farsight bomb will be able to completely outrun them with their assault moves while peppering them with fire. Same with the Seer Council. I think that they have a fair shot if they get average rending with their psycannons and the Tau Bomb gets less than average assault jumps.
Still...go paladins! Draigo must carve his name in Farsight's chest!
And also the Baron.
I agree. Their shooting is good, but most of their opponents will be getting 2+ save of some sort. Farsight's unit will give them problems. Horror shooting may hurt also, but at least they've got a 5+ Deny the Witch against them along with 2+ 2W models. The seer council will struggle against them as they have poor shooting (compared to the other deathstars on my list). The seer council does most of its damage in assault but they will struggle against 2+ models. What Draigowing needs to beat these 2 armies is favorable psychic powers - either Perfect Timing to ignore cover or Misfortune to counter-act Fortune (and, of course, Prescience).
Its probabilly to late now, but what do you think of the harlestar? Karandras' infaltrating the unit to 12-18 inches away from enemy and with first turn *likily with vect* you move and run forward to be VERY close to the enemy. Tau CAN get out of charge raneg with good JSJ but if they fail they are in combat, then they lose.
Tanky with 2+ re-rollables and will stop pinkstars powers with RoWing. We know that a harlestar beats a palliestar if they meet in combat, which they will unless you kill them first turn. The only other one that can out menover them is the seer council, but they want to be in combat. And that will be a massive hit and run fest.
I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
If so, ditto for Nob Bikers.
Also, another potential Ork Deathstar to consider
Ghazghull
Grotsnik
x10 MANz +Cybork for all from Grotsnik.
+Kombi Skorchas for all (or not)
=885 points.
Also are allies allowed at all? I'd love to see the above with an allied Painboss instead of Grotsnik and maybe Old Zogwart for gaks and giggles.
Or maybe, just ditch Grotsnik and take Old Zogwart anyway. I mean every other deathstar seems to be based on some jerkass special character, which we now have like a 50% chance of squiggifying...
I don't believe you can take allies of the same army.
This is a very resilient and extremely dangerous deathstar in assault. My only problem with it is that it needs some type of delivery system. Slow and Purposeful makes them even slower than slow. They'll never catch some of the other deathstars.
As much as I like this deathstar, I've got to say, "Sorry, not viable unless you can somehow get them into some type of fast transport."
I'd take Zogwart just for the hilarity of it. It'll be worth it just to see the look on the opponent's face when Zogwort turns Draigo or Sevrin Loth to a squig. Just thinking about it makes me chuckle.
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++, Orb
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
Harbringer of Despair w/ Veil of Darkness
Harbringer of Despair
Harbringer of Despair
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
This is how a supercourt looks like, two rerolls, Veil for mobility, 3 AP1 templates even when getting charged, all but 3 guys dont have a 3++, you have 5 scythes and 5 shackles...
Is this even legal? I don't have my codex currently, but can you even join a member of a Royal Court to another Royal Court?
Eldrad using own powers (see fortune...)
Karandras
Vect
6 harlequins with kisses
2 harlequins with kisses and fusion pistols
Troupe master with power axe
Shadowseer with kiss.
All this meets up to 940 odd points, and 600pts of it one 3 models.
Resiliency. stealth plus shrouded leads to a constant 4+ cover, 2 + in cover. Not that survivable. Add in fortune *which WILL go off, he can try twice, rolls 3 dice and picks lowest, and RoW and RoWitnessing cancel each other out* and that become a lot better. Both Karandras and Vect can tank at the front of the unit with there 2+/+ re-rollable. Karandras at front to LOS onto vect for AP2. Speed is an issue but karandras lets his unit infaltrate closer. Then movement and fleet should catch up.
In combat on the charge thats 36 rending wounds which re-roll 1's and to wound *doom will also go off...*, 7 AP3 attacks that wound on 3's and will hit on 3's, re-rolling. 7 stength 8 AP2 hits and 3 woud on 2's ignore armour hits. In other words it hits like a brick. Hit and run means we can keep FC and keep shooting in with fusion pistols + vects ap2 blast. So, what do you think, im sure you have already thought of them.
While its mobility isn't the greatest, at least the Harliestar is a tried and true deathstar with some tournament success. I prefer the seer council over the harliestar, but I think it is good enough to warrant a place in my Deathstars Under Consideration list. Added.
Dozer Blades wrote: Deathstars aren't competitive in sixth edition unless a TO specifically designs their tournament to buff them. A veteran player playing a balanced army will beat a less experienced player playing a deathstar in this edition. Sixth edition does cater well though to what I often refer to as a quasi deathstar. There is no one unit now that can single handedly win a game but there are definitely some units that can go a long ways. For instance Dark Harliestar looked promising... Too many points though sunk in one unit that can only hold one objective at the end of a game. Maybe a true deathstar will eventually emerge but the direction I see in sixth edition so far is not a good indication.
I myself don't really run deathstars currently, though I do run mini-stars (Necron wraithwing). I think deathstar armies are viable and that you can have a balanced deathstar army, though I wouldn't suggest actually running a 1000-pt deathstar in a normal game - it is just too unbalancing. Now I'm not saying deathstar armies are the best armies out there - they're not - however, they can compete even against some of the best armies today. It all depends on what you surround your deathstar with. Some armies have better supporting units than others. Grey knights, eldar/dark eldar and orks can all run deathstar armies that are also good TAC armies because they can surround those deathstars with cheap and efficient complementary units.
Siphen wrote: I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
I'm rooting for the Tau, but I don't think they can win. They'll struggle to kill even the Baron in a single round of shooting (let alone all the other 3+/4++ rerollable). Once in combat, the Seer Council will sweep them.
Against the Daemons, they'll always be snap-firing at the LOC. Even with monster-hunter, hitting on 6's is too much for them (unless he flubs the gift rolls and doesn't get 3+ armor, reroll invuls, or fnp). Once in combat, the LOC stands a decent chance of sweeping them.
As dumb as it would be, I think it would be funny if two deathstars managed to do nothing against each other. There are at least 2 units that can get a 2++ re-rollable, so it's at least possible.
Actually, Draigowing, the Pinkstar and Nob bikers are better because they are scoring. Being scoring makes a huge difference, making a unit that you can ignore now a unit that you are forced to deal with. And scoring deathstars have a huge advantage in the Relic mission (which, IMO, is a poorly designed and unbalanced mission) as well as the Emperor's Will.
However, for the purposes of this mini-tournament, it is irrelavent. This tournament is mainly to gauge the sheer destructive capabilities and durability of each of the deathstars involved. It's like Michael Jordan and Lebron James going one-on-one instead of the the Championship Bulls team versus the Championship Heat team. Look at it as "Who is the best player (deathstar)" rather than "Who is the best championship team (tournament army)".
Don't count out Tau in assault. The seer council doesn't have what it takes to wipe them out in combat so easily, not with a stubborn deathstar who can hit & run out of combat. Against the LoC, they have all twin-linked weapons and can take Monster Hunter, though killing him (the LoC) will depend on what rewards and psychic buffs he gets.
I doubt that they will fail to hurt each other. The volume of attacks/fire that each deathstar is able to put out is just staggering. Then you've got Precision Shots (especially for the 4 Tzeentch Herald characters) and cover-ignoring powers that can be placed to hurt the deathstars.
16 psycannon shots will be enough to make a dent by the time they hit combat, also I guess you will be able to use grand stratagy? Then give them scout or re-rolls to wound so they become even better
Nick Navanti (aka yermom here on dakka) brought something like this:
Draigo
Necron Lord
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, not sure what else
5x Warrriors - Night Scythe
5x Warrriors - Night Scythe
5x Warrriors - Night Scythe
I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
If so, ditto for Nob Bikers.
Also, another potential Ork Deathstar to consider
Ghazghull
Grotsnik
x10 MANz +Cybork for all from Grotsnik.
+Kombi Skorchas for all (or not)
=885 points.
Also are allies allowed at all? I'd love to see the above with an allied Painboss instead of Grotsnik and maybe Old Zogwart for gaks and giggles.
Or maybe, just ditch Grotsnik and take Old Zogwart anyway. I mean every other deathstar seems to be based on some jerkass special character, which we now have like a 50% chance of squiggifying...
I don't believe you can take allies of the same army.
This is a very resilient and extremely dangerous deathstar in assault. My only problem with it is that it needs some type of delivery system. Slow and Purposeful makes them even slower than slow. They'll never catch some of the other deathstars.
As much as I like this deathstar, I've got to say, "Sorry, not viable unless you can somehow get them into some type of fast transport."
What about putting it in a Deffrolla? That's an open-topped transport, so you get to move + disembark + assault. You can move 12"-18" per turn between normal move and flat out, in order to corner your opposing Deathstar. It's AV14 front armor, which a lot of these Deathstars are going to have a hard time with. Oh, and you're thowing S10 hits on each Deathstar once you tank shock it, regardless of whether they DoG or not, and those hits ignore cover saves.
Edit: Oh, and as an additional bonus, you can disembark, tank shock to bunch up the opposing Deathstar, then unload with a volley of combi-scorchas before charging in. Should be extra fun against those Deathstars that are relying on cover to boost their survivability.
This is what I would call the "warmup" game before the match between the Draigowing and Tau.
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead, I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost
4x Death Company - Jump Packs, Infernus Pistols
5x Death Company - Jump Packs, Power Fists
10x Death Company - Jump Packs
Death Company BA has got decent mobility and awesome hitting power. However, IMO they've got poor resiliency. 3+ models just isn't resilient, even with FNP....at least not against the deathstars on my list. By the time they reach the knights, they are going to be so few in numbers that it's not going to even put a dent on the paladins. My prediction is that this is just going to be a massacre by the Grey Knights.
BTW, Foreboding is an awesome power in this game. It gives the unit Counter-attack and allow them to Overwatch at full BS. That's like giving the paladins another turn of shooting for free!
Angels deploy far away from the shooting of the grey knights. BTW, the red guys are regular death company. The meltaguns are the models with infernus pistols and the guys in black are the power fists.
Coteaz casts Prescience. They are out of range to shoot so run forwards after moving.
Blood Angels 1
Angels advance and then run to hide behind the LOS-blocking terrain for 1 turn.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 2
Coteaz would cast both powers (he would do this every turn from now on until they get into combat).
Paladins would actually move back 6" to get away from the infernus pistols.
Blood Angels 2
Time for some Carpe Diem. Angels go on the offense and advance towards the knights.
Now BA is faced with a decision. The angels are about 10" away for an assault. Should they attempt an assault? If they don't assault, then next turn the paladins shoot them up and then shoot them up again when they charge. So that's 2 turns of shooting they would have to endure.
Now if BA charges and makes it, then they only have to endure 1 turn of shooting from Overwatch. However, if they fail, paladins get to Overwatch (at full BS and twin-linked!), then next turn shoot up the angels some more and then 1 more turn of Overwatch when they at last charge!!! So the options are:
1. Charge and make it - endure 1 shooting phase.
2. Don't charge - endure 2 shooting phases.
3. Charge and fail - endure 3 shooting phases!
I decide not to charge. This is because their Overwatch will probably kill the guys in front, thus potentially making the charge impossible or at the very least, a 12" attempt!
Instead, angels shoot at and put 1W on the paladins with bolt pistols.
Score (VP's) - Blood Angels: 28, Grey Knights: 0
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 3
Real marines know no fear. Paladins advance like the brave soldiers they are instead of retreating like cowards.
The number of psycannon hits. Man, that's a lot of misses.
Oh, wait....good thing for Prescience.
Even with FNP, paladins manage to shoot down 7 death company angels.
Finally, the epic combat that you've been waiting for. Angels get into position.
3 infernus pistols hit and paladins fail all 3 saves! Bolt pistols also put 1W on a psycannon as well.
On their way in, paladins kill another 6 death company with Overwatch.
They make it into combat. Grandmaster challenges Lemartes, who accepts. Coteaz casts Hammerhand.
The Grandmaster force weapons Lemartes to death. Halberds (there are still 3, but they get 4 attacks each at S5 with re-roll's to hit from Prescience and re-roll 1's to wound due to Grand Strategy) finishes off all the angels before they can even strike. The banner prevents FNP by the angels.
This game ended just as I suspected - a massacre for the grey knights. The Bad Company is an ok deathstar, but it just doesn't have the resiliency to take on a true deathstar. All that close-combat awesomeness doesn't do any good if the unit cannot make it into combat largely intact. It needs some defensive help. Maybe if you ally in a librarian with Invisibility, they'll have a better chance, but currently as-is, Bad Company is a mid-tier deathstar (or "bubble" deathstar) at best.
And he's already beaten me once with his Tau before. Thus, he would make the perfect test partner to go up against my paladins and daemons.
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead, I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
This isn't going to be an easy fight for the paladins. Forget about trying to assault the Tau. It's almost impossible. No, this is going to be a firefight and Tau is going to have the advantage. No single unit - with probably the exception of the Pinkstar daemons - will out-shoot Tau. Who is going to do more damage - normal shots against 2+ cover or AP2 plasma shots against 5++ Invuln's (with no cover)? I think the knights will be the slight underdog in this matchup.
However, it isn't hopeless, not by a long shot. The knights have a few tricks up their sleeves. 6" Scout move + 1st turn means that they can threaten anything 36" or closer with their shooting. More importantly, Forewarning will give them 4++ Invuln's against Tau plasmas and meltas and Prescience makes their shooting highly accurate. It's going to be a game of attrition and the knights may just have enough to pull it off, though IMO they are going into this game as the underdog.
Keep in mind that this game was played on the same day I played my Pinkstar against Farsight Tau. At that time, we weren't aware that you could not infiltrate Shadowsun with Farsight.
Paladins then scouts forwards 6". And yes, my opponent did know that I gave my paladins Scout via Grand Strategy.
Coteaz casts both of his powers - Prescience and Forewarning. He would do this every turn. Paladins advance.
I am able to shoot down most of his drones without cover due to my essentially 12" move. I kill 11 and put 1W on the Iridium Armor bodyguard.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 184, Tau: 0
Tau 1
Tau moves forwards into plasma double-tap range (at least for most of the guys).
BAM!!! His shooting is devastating this turn....mainly because I fail almost all of my 4++ saves! He takes out 6 paladins and put 1W on a 7th!!!
Bloody fantastic. At least all my psycannons survive, but everyone else is dead.
Suits then jump back behind cover.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 184, Tau: 395
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 2
Grey knights advance. I have a very good round of shooting this turn. I shoot down 1 drone without cover. I then shoot down 3 suits with 2+ cover!!!
More importantly, due to the positioning of his suits, I manage to shoot down the Command & Control suite (for twin-linked shooting), the Iridium Armor suit and the Puretide Engram suit (for stubborn)! I also get rid of his 2 Hit-&-Run guys. Now if only I could reach them in combat....
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 410, Tau: 395
Tau 2
Tau advances.
Without twin-linked shooting, and because I roll much better on my saves this turn, I only lose 1 of my psycannon paladins (the guy already wounded). I can live with that.
They then jump back 12" behind cover.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 410, Tau: 435
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 3
This turn, I shoot down 1 suit and put 1W on another suit (via Look-Out-Sirs).
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 547, Tau: 435
Tau 3
Tau movement.
They fare better in shooting this turn, taking out 1 paladin and putting 1W each on my Grandmaster and on another paladin (via Look-Out-Sirs).
Wow. A 15" jump in the Assault phase!
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 547, Tau: 550
So far, it's turning out to be every bit the shoot-out that I had expected....though I hadn't quite expected to lose 6 paladins in 1 turn!
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 4
I haven't given up yet.
BTW, we appear to be off by 1 turn.
Again, I do 3W, killing off one of his suits (with the Neuroweb) and putting 1W on another.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 690, Tau: 550
Tau 4
Tau goes in for the kill....
....but not quite. They do, however, kill another paladin and bring my Grandmaster down to less than half wounds (thus giving him half VP's).
Of course, they then make their getaway.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 690, Tau: 743
Turn 5
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 5
It is actually Turn 5, but we roll for it anyways to see if the game continues because we think it is Turn 6. Grey knights move.
I shoot down the wounded suit and a drone.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 747, Tau: 743
Tau 5
It is now a 3-on-3. However, all my paladins are down to 1 Wound left and any wound that goes through will insta-kill Coteaz.
My Grandmaster Look-Out-Sirs all his wounds to the other guys, thus killing both of them.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 747, Tau: 883
Turn 6
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 6
Game goes on to what we believe is Turn 7.
Paladins are down big-time, though I have 1 last shot to win this. If I can get the charge with my Grandmaster.....and survive his Overwatch....then there's still a chance I may snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
Shooting by my Grandmaster puts another 1W on a suit.
I then attempt to charge. I need about 9". I survive his Overwatch. I then proceed to roll 8" for my charge.
Ouch...that was a painful game. My paladins started off good by killing most of his buffer models - the gun drones. Then his Turn 1 shooting was just devastating. I barely recovered from that. I failed almost every single 4++ save I had to make! That was some unbelievably poor rolling on my part.
But that wasn't what killed my paladins. The thing that killed my paladins was the large impassable, LOS-blocking terrain right in the center of the board. The terrain prevented my paladins from ever being able to go after his Tau. Instead I had to go around. Here you have a unit that only moves 6" trying to chase a unit that can move 6"+3D6"....not going to happen. He also had superior firepower and 2+ cover saves compared to only 4++ for my paladins. It was a shoot-out that I was destined to lose, though I did try my best to make it a game. If not for his tremendous Turn 1 shooting, I actually felt that my paladins could have won.
After 2 matches, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the Farsight-bomb is a very strong deathstar, maybe one of the bests. Now their final test will be against an army they cannot run away from - one with the mobility to hit them anywhere on the table - the Deldar Seer Council! Coming Thursday. Stay tuned....
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
I believe it all depends on who matches up against who. Tau, if they got into fusion Blaster range, would wreck the hammerstar's LR, and then jump away and keep kitting, but Deldar match up good against Tau. I've never seen nor played against a draigowind so i don't really know how that might end up.
To sum it all up, whatever the matchup is might inherently favor one deathstar or another. I might be biased, but IMHO, the Hammernators might be one of the best in here, since they nothing outside of Farsight or the Disco-court can hurt AV14, which might also have ap3 flamers or lots of bolter dakka; not to mention that it might also keep up with the JSJ farsightbomb and the jetseers.
All these deathstars have ways to deal with AV14. If they didn't, they wouldn't be true deathstars.
Tau has meltas. If necessary, Farsight can assault the tank with Armourbane and Tank-hunter.
The Pinkstar has a flying monstrous creature. I believe they can also take Tzeentch powers to deal with heavy armor.
Draigowing has a bunch of S10 hammers and rending psycannons.
The seer council has witchblades, which basically gives them Armourbane. The scary thing is, they are actually fast enough to potentially surround the LR. If they can wreck it while surrounding it, then the guys inside die because they can't disembark.
Belial: Sword of Silence and storm bolter
Dark Angels Librarian: Terminator Armor mastery level 2 Force axe, mace of redemption, storm bolter, infravisor
10x Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS, 2x CML Space Marine Librarian: Terminator Armor, SS, Null zone, GoI
Going for Prescience and your power roll of choice on the DA Libby. using the SM libby w/ GoI for extra movement.
1000 points on the dot.
For 30 points less you could substitute the Terminator squad for a fully kitted out Deathwing Knights squad. Giving them all T5 (save the C:SM libby)
Why not Azrael and Sevrin Loth? Azrael gives the whole unit 4++ and Sevrin is just one bad-ass mofo.
I'm not big on Gate of Infinity (or Veil of Darkness) as a means for mobility, but I suppose it's better than nothing. It's got good resiliency, decent assault but poor shooting. IMO, this is another bubble-deathstar. It's got potential, but due to its lack of shooting and unreliable mode of transportation, it is not reliable enough for me to include in my Deathstars Under Consideration list (so far, I haven't included any of the "bubble-deathstars" there). Overall, I like the Ravenwing Deathstar better.
All units in night scythes. Nothing to get shot at turn 1, pick and choose objectives to place warriors on. Spam Tesla weaponry. It might be more powerful to replace 2 of the night scythes with a doom scythe and boost the warriors as well but either way it's a pretty solid (if completely cheesy) list
That's an army, not a deathstar. And it's not even legal (how did you get 6 night scythes in the list?)!
Dakkamite wrote: Also I reckon chuck Wazdakka on that Nob Biker deathstar. Cut a Warboss and anything else you need to, those S8 shots are too good to pass up.
Interesting. You're basically paying an extra 30-pts for some S8 shooting. Will have to drop some big choppas and kombi-skorchas or perhaps even 1 power klaw for it. Gonna have to think about this one.
DAaddict wrote: For a bonus round, have them face Doom of Malantai in a mycetic spore.. Spirit Leech + Psychic Shriek + a couple of pot shots from the spore... Wonder how many of these deathstars will be gimped by this what... 200 pt counter.
No contest...the Doom would die a horrible death. However, if he is a complement to another tyranid deathstar, then at least he will draw 1 round of fire, thus allowing the tyranid deathstar one more turn of free movement.
djn wrote: Looking forward to this, should be interesting. I did something similar a while back with Paladins and the Harliestar, this is much grander in scope though.
DAaddict wrote: For a bonus round, have them face Doom of Malantai in a mycetic spore.. Spirit Leech + Psychic Shriek + a couple of pot shots from the spore... Wonder how many of these deathstars will be gimped by this what... 200 pt counter.
130 points! But the most wounds he's likely to do is 8 if triple 6s are rolled for Ld with leech, minus cover saves. Same again for shriek just with the psychic test and shot at BS but no covers. Plus you've got to hope he drops in within range. A lot of ifs and buts. Doom is great when he works but isn't the most reliable in my experience, though a great psychological weapon.
Yeah, I remember reading that report. The Harliestar won, right? In any case, Draigowing with Prescience makes a huge difference. I'd drop something to try to fit in Coteaz or a Prescience inquisitor.
6 DCA's + 6 crusaders, with coteaz, an ordo xenos inq with prescience, and a tech marine ( or two, at least one with rad grenades)
DCA's have mauls + axes, so 18 attacks base (24 on charge)
either at I 6 str 6 (can get to str 10 by adding more hammerhand via techmarines) ap 4, all rerolling hits
or I1 str 5 (again able to increase) rerolling hits,
this plus whatever coteaz rolls on the tables (or keep his HH for another +1str)
the unit has 6 ablative 3++ wounds as well, which also contribute 6 more axe attacks at str 4, and a 5++ after they die, coteaz and/or the techmarine can also tank wounds with tehir artificer armour, giving the techmarine a warding staff also gives you a cheap challenge monster in the unit with a 2++ AND the str 8 ap1 servo arm attacks
and your enemy is -1T, so if you buff the mace attacks to str 8, bam, ID all around for t5 guys,
all this costs
180pts for the DCA+crusaders
55pts ordos xenos w prec
100pts coteaz
125pts techmarine w rad + warding staff
so 460 pts,
Automatically Appended Next Post: best part is the cheapest part of the deathstar is the DCA's and crusaders, you can take two units of them, and if someone focuses all their shooting on the first, just move the caracters into the 2nd unit
I consider this more of a mini-deathstar. Get them in a Land Raider Crusader and you're golden. Very good for its price. The only other thing I would add is psykatroke grenades for the techmarine.
I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
If so, ditto for Nob Bikers.
Also, another potential Ork Deathstar to consider
Ghazghull
Grotsnik
x10 MANz +Cybork for all from Grotsnik.
+Kombi Skorchas for all (or not)
=885 points.
Also are allies allowed at all? I'd love to see the above with an allied Painboss instead of Grotsnik and maybe Old Zogwart for gaks and giggles.
Or maybe, just ditch Grotsnik and take Old Zogwart anyway. I mean every other deathstar seems to be based on some jerkass special character, which we now have like a 50% chance of squiggifying...
I don't believe you can take allies of the same army.
This is a very resilient and extremely dangerous deathstar in assault. My only problem with it is that it needs some type of delivery system. Slow and Purposeful makes them even slower than slow. They'll never catch some of the other deathstars.
As much as I like this deathstar, I've got to say, "Sorry, not viable unless you can somehow get them into some type of fast transport."
What about putting it in a Deffrolla? That's an open-topped transport, so you get to move + disembark + assault. You can move 12"-18" per turn between normal move and flat out, in order to corner your opposing Deathstar. It's AV14 front armor, which a lot of these Deathstars are going to have a hard time with. Oh, and you're thowing S10 hits on each Deathstar once you tank shock it, regardless of whether they DoG or not, and those hits ignore cover saves.
Edit: Oh, and as an additional bonus, you can disembark, tank shock to bunch up the opposing Deathstar, then unload with a volley of combi-scorchas before charging in. Should be extra fun against those Deathstars that are relying on cover to boost their survivability.
You'll have to drop 2 MANz to get them to fit in the battlewagon. That could work. Yeah, I think I will add this to my Deathstars Under Consideration list. I want to include Zogwort, but Grotsnik is probably the better choice.
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++, Orb
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
Harbringer of Despair w/ Veil of Darkness
Harbringer of Despair
Harbringer of Despair
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
This is how a supercourt looks like, two rerolls, Veil for mobility, 3 AP1 templates even when getting charged, all but 3 guys dont have a 3++, you have 5 scythes and 5 shackles...
Is this even legal? I don't have my codex currently, but can you even join a member of a Royal Court to another Royal Court?
No it isnt, just dump the Second Harbringer of eternity and add tesseracts to every bodyguard lord
You can't deffrolla and fire normally with skorchas? I think its snap shots only if you ram/tank shock.
You also can't assault after a ram or tank shock anymore, despite it being open topped. 6th was harsh on the BW..
I also believe the deffrolla hits do not ignore cover. I don't see anything (other than logic) to support this unless it was faq'd recently and I missed it.
Dakkamite that is a good build with grotsnik, and with zogwort being a warphead hes got 2 shots at getting the teleport spell for mobility right? MANz would have to have cybork or be scoring tho if ya grab ol zoggy (and with bs0 will he be allowed to do shooting psychic abilities at all0
You get out before you Tank Shock, and use the Tank Shock to bunch them up so you can Combi-Scorcha and assault them. In addition, anyone assaulting it eats Combi-Scorcha overwatch, which will put the hurt on several of these Deathstars.
You may be right about the Deffrolla hits; I've always assumed that you can't take cover saves from getting squished to death by a giant steam roller. But then again I keep getting told not to use common sense and logic.
Belial with TH/SS ML1 Libbi in termi armour with force axe
Company master in termi armour with mace of redempton and storm shield
5 DWK with perfidous relic
1 LR crusader with DW vehicle
I won't lie, I am rooting for tau to take this but I really do feel that the match between demons and tau was completely unfair. Demons really needs to go first to win, now I know there is only a 50% chance of going first but still you really need it. Unless demons have a chance to set up their invuls and re-rolls then they are going to lose too many units in the first turn, and that is just what happened this game.
It seems that the demon's match up really came down to three unlucky rolls: the initiative roll and the two invul rolls. I would very much like to see if tau has the stuff to win if demons gets the first turn and its 2++ for the first few turns of the game.
But now that demons is gone I see nothing holding tau back and expect it to crush just about everything else.
I won't lie, I am rooting for tau to take this but I really do feel that the match between demons and tau was completely unfair. Demons really needs to go first to win, now I know there is only a 50% chance of going first but still you really need it. Unless demons have a chance to set up their invuls and re-rolls then they are going to lose too many units in the first turn, and that is just what happened this game.
It seems that the demon's match up really came down to three unlucky rolls: the initiative roll and the two invul rolls. I would very much like to see if tau has the stuff to win if demons gets the first turn and its 2++ for the first few turns of the game.
But now that demons is gone I see nothing holding tau back and expect it to crush just about everything else.
If you have to go first to win, then honestly your death star is extremely weak.
I won't lie, I am rooting for tau to take this but I really do feel that the match between demons and tau was completely unfair. Demons really needs to go first to win, now I know there is only a 50% chance of going first but still you really need it. Unless demons have a chance to set up their invuls and re-rolls then they are going to lose too many units in the first turn, and that is just what happened this game.
It seems that the demon's match up really came down to three unlucky rolls: the initiative roll and the two invul rolls. I would very much like to see if tau has the stuff to win if demons gets the first turn and its 2++ for the first few turns of the game.
But now that demons is gone I see nothing holding tau back and expect it to crush just about everything else.
Yeah, that game wasn't very satisfactory. A mistake on my part + some dice going against me kind of skewered the results. I think I will have a rematch between the two. Also, I didn't really mention it, but the Tau were rolling well on their saves. It probably took my daemons about 8-9 wounds just to get through one of those 2+ cover saves. I believe he even had a streak of about 11 made 2+ saves. Most of the daemon kills were on drones who had their cover removed via Perfect Timing.
He is a Forgeworld character from one of their Imperial Armour books who is broken as heck. I think he is a level 4 psyker who knows all the spells from 3-4 different disciples. Moreover, he can turn his 2+ armour into a 2++ invuln save! I really don't know what the heck FW was thinking when they designed this character.
If you have to go first to win, then honestly your death star is extremely weak.
I don't think the Pinkstar has to go first to win, but as with all psychic-heavy armies, going first does help. The problem was not going first, a mistake in deployment and some bad luck by daemons which did them in.
If someone pointed this out already, apologies. However, this list isn't valid. Having run the Cheese Council since 4th dropped, I'm pretty familiar with the setup and thought your assessment of their shooting was odd. Then I noticed you have 4 warlocks with no powers, and that's a no no. Codex entry explicitly states they MUST take a power. It doesn't change the list much, but you do need to drop a lock and grab powers for the other 3. It's an easy oversight if you aren't familiar with the codex, and Army builder doesn't flag it as an issue.
Also, I'm going to take a guess here and say you are using Guide for re rolls in combat (based on army review)? Guide is shooting only, so pretty useless for these guys. May as well switch it for doom.
For convenience sake here is the list updated with the suggestions I made. 2 more destructors and another enhance, with guide switched for doom on the 2 power seer. Also, traded Eldritch storm for fortune on the four power seer assuming you are going to trade these out for book powers. It's 10 points cheaper and allows you to pick up warding on both seers, because why not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
Put the second Enhance in their for redundancy sake, but if you prefer switch it out for destructor and the total comes down to 995.
Any who, looking forward to the results. It will be interesting one way or another. Hopefully that helped a bit. Again, if it's already been mentioned apologies. I looked and didn't see anything regarding my favorite deathstar 7 years running, so had to make sure my boys were represented at their best.
@Jy2: Will there be a separate bracket for certain 'deathstars under consideration'? The matchups that would ensue would make for very interesting games, and may change people's perception of certain deathstars. That, and i want to see some *cue boombox*..."Hammer Time!"
If someone pointed this out already, apologies. However, this list isn't valid. Having run the Cheese Council since 4th dropped, I'm pretty familiar with the setup and thought your assessment of their shooting was odd. Then I noticed you have 4 warlocks with no powers, and that's a no no. Codex entry explicitly states they MUST take a power. It doesn't change the list much, but you do need to drop a lock and grab powers for the other 3. It's an easy oversight if you aren't familiar with the codex, and Army builder doesn't flag it as an issue.
Also, I'm going to take a guess here and say you are using Guide for re rolls in combat (based on army review)? Guide is shooting only, so pretty useless for these guys. May as well switch it for doom.
For convenience sake here is the list updated with the suggestions I made. 2 more destructors and another enhance, with guide switched for doom on the 2 power seer. Also, traded Eldritch storm for fortune on the four power seer assuming you are going to trade these out for book powers. It's 10 points cheaper and allows you to pick up warding on both seers, because why not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
Put the second Enhance in their for redundancy sake, but if you prefer switch it out for destructor and the total comes down to 995.
Any who, looking forward to the results. It will be interesting one way or another. Hopefully that helped a bit. Again, if it's already been mentioned apologies. I looked and didn't see anything regarding my favorite deathstar 7 years running, so had to make sure my boys were represented at their best.
Ah, thanks for pointing it out. I was not aware of that as I am not an eldar player. Looks like my friend who I've been playing against is running them wrong. I will point it out to him.
I will modify the list to make it legal. Thanks!
ace101 wrote: @Jy2: Will there be a separate bracket for certain 'deathstars under consideration'? The matchups that would ensue would make for very interesting games, and may change people's perception of certain deathstars. That, and i want to see some *cue boombox*..."Hammer Time!"
Just for you, I well set up a special, guest Deathstar "Deathmatch". You can find your list on p.2 under the Deathstars under Consideration list. Coming soon....
Of those I vote for option 2. 4x big choppas 1 boss pole and 1x kombi skorhca but I would edit it as thus
4x big choppa, 1 boss pole, 1 grot orderly
(for that FNP re roll when painboy or a boss going to eat dust).. I don't think extra skorcha will make up more points than that re-roll might save. I also think wazdakka is a liability with no cybork body. Having 2 warbosses means 1 can leave the unit and charge into paladins and absorb overwatch, while the other and the bikers just coast on in.
"The List" I originally posted edited and revised:
Sevrin Loth can take all six powers from Biomancy, Telekinesis or telepathy. He can also expend one point of warp charge to convert his 2+ into a 2++. Not necessarily broken but definitely quite good. He is a Red Scorpion.
Dozer Blades wrote: Sevrin Loth can take all six powers from Biomancy, Telekinesis or telepathy. He can also expend one point of warp charge to convert his 2+ into a 2++. Not necessarily broken but definitely quite good. He is a Red Scorpion.
Who else has that type of flexibility in terms of psychic powers? He knows all the powers from each of those disciplines so there's no chance of failure in getting what he wants. Joins the Ravenwing deathstar and that's a guaranteed Invisibility. Join any deathstar and he can cast Iron Arm on himself and Endurance on the unit. With every other psyker, there is a risk of not getting the power that you want. With Sevrin, there is no such risk. He is a huge force multiplier that is even scarier than Fateweaver or Eldrad.
Moreover, his 2++ can come in quite handy. Put him in the front and he will tank any and all AP1/2 shots while passing small-arms fire to the rest of the unit. Concerned about him getting insta-killed? Not with Iron Arm on. Finally, he can still cast most of the Space Marine powers, including Null Zone.
This guy is the best psyker in the universe! I didn't know the Red Scorpions had a better psyker than Tigurius or even the Emperor himself!
Veskrashen wrote: You get out before you Tank Shock, and use the Tank Shock to bunch them up so you can Combi-Scorcha and assault them. In addition, anyone assaulting it eats Combi-Scorcha overwatch, which will put the hurt on several of these Deathstars.
You may be right about the Deffrolla hits; I've always assumed that you can't take cover saves from getting squished to death by a giant steam roller. But then again I keep getting told not to use common sense and logic.
I may be mistaken but I think you are disallowed from tank shocking if you disembark passengers at all that turn.
It may just be ramming. im pretty sure ya can't disembark and then ram anymore. Defrollas got hit hard with 6th. Dakkamite has a good list to make them work but brings over a dozen using ia8 vehicles or something.
Veskrashen wrote: You get out before you Tank Shock, and use the Tank Shock to bunch them up so you can Combi-Scorcha and assault them. In addition, anyone assaulting it eats Combi-Scorcha overwatch, which will put the hurt on several of these Deathstars.
You may be right about the Deffrolla hits; I've always assumed that you can't take cover saves from getting squished to death by a giant steam roller. But then again I keep getting told not to use common sense and logic.
I may be mistaken but I think you are disallowed from tank shocking if you disembark passengers at all that turn.
It may just be ramming. im pretty sure ya can't disembark and then ram anymore. Defrollas got hit hard with 6th. Dakkamite has a good list to make them work but brings over a dozen using ia8 vehicles or something.
You are correct. Now in 6th, you can't ram or even tank-shock on the turn you disembark passengers.
You could run 2 CSMDP's and an allied Chaos Daemon Greater Daemon for a true Chaoszilla deathstar list. Better yet, I'd run 2 Greater Daemons and ally in the Black Mace DP instead. Keep in mind that the deathstar builds do not have to be a complete army. The deathstar unit(s) you take within just needs to be a legal single-FOC combo.
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3
20x Pink Horrors
vs
1000 Spartan Hamminators Space Marines
Sevrin Loth
Vulkan
8x TH/SS Terminators
Land Raider Spartan
Bonus battle report on p.4 coming up tomorrow, followed by Game #2 - Farsight Tau vs Draigowing.
Loving this thread jy2, you are the master of suspense as always, can't wait to see more games up.
I was trying to think of armies that haven't had a star suggested yet and was wondering (as I'm not really a 40k player) has any form of IG star been considered? I was thinking a full 6 man platoon in one combined squad, full heavy and special weapon options, pws on the sergeants, Yarrick, Marbo(?) and commissars. I doubt it would be very competitive but it sure would be a laugh.
I know I'm entering this topic a little late but how did you infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun ... this cannort be done. You could DS in turn two beside the deathstar but he cannot infiltrate with the group regardless of who is the warlord.
When we play the deathstar is it common to see Shadowsun infiltrating and the Farsight DSing with a riptide turn two with AGL/Comm help. Farsight can then either join the deathstar or stay put with the riptide.
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
That was a horrific slaughter. I thought the Pink-Star was the only one that had a chance in this vacuum match up. Looks like Tau are going to run away with it.
If someone pointed this out already, apologies. However, this list isn't valid. Having run the Cheese Council since 4th dropped, I'm pretty familiar with the setup and thought your assessment of their shooting was odd. Then I noticed you have 4 warlocks with no powers, and that's a no no. Codex entry explicitly states they MUST take a power. It doesn't change the list much, but you do need to drop a lock and grab powers for the other 3. It's an easy oversight if you aren't familiar with the codex, and Army builder doesn't flag it as an issue.
Also, I'm going to take a guess here and say you are using Guide for re rolls in combat (based on army review)? Guide is shooting only, so pretty useless for these guys. May as well switch it for doom.
For convenience sake here is the list updated with the suggestions I made. 2 more destructors and another enhance, with guide switched for doom on the 2 power seer. Also, traded Eldritch storm for fortune on the four power seer assuming you are going to trade these out for book powers. It's 10 points cheaper and allows you to pick up warding on both seers, because why not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
Put the second Enhance in their for redundancy sake, but if you prefer switch it out for destructor and the total comes down to 995.
Any who, looking forward to the results. It will be interesting one way or another. Hopefully that helped a bit. Again, if it's already been mentioned apologies. I looked and didn't see anything regarding my favorite deathstar 7 years running, so had to make sure my boys were represented at their best.
Ah, thanks for pointing it out. I was not aware of that as I am not an eldar player. Looks like my friend who I've been playing against is running them wrong. I will point it out to him.
I will modify the list to make it legal. Thanks!
I'm pretty sure in the initial printing it said MUST, and then was changed to MAY. It might have been the other way around but I don't think that is the case. I'm about to go into a games store so I will go and look it up for you with a brand new codex.
Uzi Toting Monkeys wrote: Loving this thread jy2, you are the master of suspense as always, can't wait to see more games up.
I was trying to think of armies that haven't had a star suggested yet and was wondering (as I'm not really a 40k player) has any form of IG star been considered? I was thinking a full 6 man platoon in one combined squad, full heavy and special weapon options, pws on the sergeants, Yarrick, Marbo(?) and commissars. I doubt it would be very competitive but it sure would be a laugh.
Here is a possible IG deathstar. It includes basically the entire platoon. What you want is an ATSKNF Divination ally and for that, I choose Njal as an ally. Either him or Sevrin Loth for Endurance and or Invisibility (though Sevrin is Fearless, which isn't as good as ATSKNF). In any case, this would probably be what I would run:
Njal - Terminator Armor 270
Primaris Psyker 70
Platoon Command Squad 30
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant 80
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant
Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Autocannons 75
Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Autocannons 75
Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Autocannons 75
995
I prefer Njal for his psychic defense, ATSKNF and Prescience. Forewarning is a bonus, giving 4++ invuln's to your guardsmen. Misfortune will be a pain for the enemy. This unit has got resiliency through numbers. It's got decent mid-range shooting with Prescience and orders and not-too-bad (though not great) assault. It doesn't have much mobility. Then again, it is more of a shooty deathstar rather than an assault one. If you swap out Njal for Sevrin, you have enough points to get Marbo or something similar. Sevrin is a much better psyker, though he doesn't have the psychic defense and does not have access to Divination powers. Moreover, he makes the blob squad Fearless, which isn't bad. However, I much prefer ATSKNF so that at least the blob squad has a chance to get out of a combat that it doesn't like.
felixcat wrote: I know I'm entering this topic a little late but how did you infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun ... this cannort be done. You could DS in turn two beside the deathstar but he cannot infiltrate with the group regardless of who is the warlord.
When we play the deathstar is it common to see Shadowsun infiltrating and the Farsight DSing with a riptide turn two with AGL/Comm help. Farsight can then either join the deathstar or stay put with the riptide.
Really? And why is that? I don't have my rulebook with me now so can't look it up. Thanks.
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
As much as I want them to be (because tyranids are one of my favorite armies), but sorry, but none of the tyranid "ground" deathstars are viable all for the same reason - their lack of mobility. Sure, they can do a lot of damage when they get into combat, but the problem is, most of them will be dead by the time they do get into combat (or at least reduced to a not-very-effective unit by the time they reach combat). And for a deathstar, just 12 TL-S6 shots isn't very shooty at all.
The truth is that none of the walking tyranid deathstars can compete against a true deathstar army. They have neither the mobility nor the shooting to make up for it.
gpfunk wrote: That was a horrific slaughter. I thought the Pink-Star was the only one that had a chance in this vacuum match up. Looks like Tau are going to run away with it.
I still think the Pinkstar has a good chance against Tau, though they lost their "official" game already. Any rematch between them won't be on record, at least not for tournament purposes.
If someone pointed this out already, apologies. However, this list isn't valid. Having run the Cheese Council since 4th dropped, I'm pretty familiar with the setup and thought your assessment of their shooting was odd. Then I noticed you have 4 warlocks with no powers, and that's a no no. Codex entry explicitly states they MUST take a power. It doesn't change the list much, but you do need to drop a lock and grab powers for the other 3. It's an easy oversight if you aren't familiar with the codex, and Army builder doesn't flag it as an issue.
Also, I'm going to take a guess here and say you are using Guide for re rolls in combat (based on army review)? Guide is shooting only, so pretty useless for these guys. May as well switch it for doom.
For convenience sake here is the list updated with the suggestions I made. 2 more destructors and another enhance, with guide switched for doom on the 2 power seer. Also, traded Eldritch storm for fortune on the four power seer assuming you are going to trade these out for book powers. It's 10 points cheaper and allows you to pick up warding on both seers, because why not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
Put the second Enhance in their for redundancy sake, but if you prefer switch it out for destructor and the total comes down to 995.
Any who, looking forward to the results. It will be interesting one way or another. Hopefully that helped a bit. Again, if it's already been mentioned apologies. I looked and didn't see anything regarding my favorite deathstar 7 years running, so had to make sure my boys were represented at their best.
Ah, thanks for pointing it out. I was not aware of that as I am not an eldar player. Looks like my friend who I've been playing against is running them wrong. I will point it out to him.
I will modify the list to make it legal. Thanks!
I'm pretty sure in the initial printing it said MUST, and then was changed to MAY. It might have been the other way around but I don't think that is the case. I'm about to go into a games store so I will go and look it up for you with a brand new codex.
This may be the case, but I've never heard of it changing/FAQ'd. However 1) as I noted I've been running them since 4th (haven't played sixth), and my book is definitely the first print. 2) Id rather have one less body and 2-3 more destructors. That's a hold over from not having hit and run though, where I wanted to do as much dmg as possible prior to charging so as not to get tar pitted. Still though, even with hit and run 5 heavy flamers to the face is always fun. Especially Since you can't DTW destructors.
Alternately if you just want the bodies, jy's list had a few seer power choices he could change out (the ones I noted) to get the emboldens and not change the intent of the army.
Game #3 - 1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Pinkstar Daemons
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead, I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
Coteaz - Prescience, Forewarning
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (Re-roll Invuln's, Hellfire Gaze), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Foreboding, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Forewarning, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Forewarning, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Foreboding, Prescience, Flickering Fire
This battle is a little harder to predict. Tzeentch shooting vs grey knight resiliency....I think I will give daemons the slight edge in this one. Why? Because of the lack of mobility of the grey knights. Also, the grey knights have 2 huge threats to face but they can only handle 1 at a time. It could actually go either ways depending on the Grimoire. It the Grimoire fails even once, grey knights can potentially take it as their shooting will be devastating to a unit with 6++ only (or 5++ after Forewarning). However, if it goes off, well, have fun trying to kill anything with re-rollable 2++'s.
Also, assault by the LoC is a huge problem as well. Without a warding stave in the paladinstar, grey knights most likely will lose the battle if they have to fight a LoC with re-rollable 2++'s. They do have 3++ due to Forewarning and Nemesis Force Swords in assault, however, the LoC will be getting re-roll's to hit and to wound (due to Precognition) with his S8 insta-killing staff. IMO, paladins will only be able to win this battle if the Grimoire fails on the LoC.
Finally, daemons have got some excellent psychic powers. Actually, both units do. For my 3rd straight game, my LoC has gotten Precognition. Wow! That is the best possible Divination power he could get! Both armies have Forewarning, which is absolutely crucial to their survivals. Daemons have one more ace up their sleeves - Misfortune. I predict that this power will make a huge difference in the game. If paladins need to Deny anything, it would be Misfortune. Otherwise, if it goes through more than once, I think the paladins will be in serious trouble.
The knights cast their psychic powers (they would do this every turn).
As I deployed them (daemons) out of the threat range of the paladins, they decide to run instead. They gain much ground with a 6" scout move, a 6" normal move and then a 6" run.
Pinkstar 1
Daemons cast their powers. LoC is a stud with re-rolls on everything, including his 2++ Grimoire-enhanced saves.
Horrors, on the other hand, fail to cast 3 times and suffer 2 Perils! They fail to Misfortune the paladins and fail to cast Forewarning on themselves, as well as one of their attempts at Prescience (the 2nd Prescience attempt did go off). The Herald with the Grimoire and a normal Herald both takes 1W!
The LoC has no fear and swoops directly in front of the paladins.
The Herald then drops off the Portaglyph, which scatters towards the paladins.
It then spawns 2 horrors and now I've completely blocked off the paladins from reaching my big block of horrors.
Warpstorm does nothing. It would continue to not really do anything throughout the game.
Even without Misfortune, shooting is good for the daemons. They manage to kill 1 hammer, 1 sword and 1 halberd paladin. They also put 1W on the banner and 2W on the Grandmaster. Wow! That is 9W that they inflicted! Way above average, considering that the Heralds spent a total of 5 Warp Charges in the casting of other psychic powers. Paladins fail to deny any psychic powers at all!!!
On the bright side, they pass their toughness test due to Warpflame from Tzeentch shooting to receive a 6+ FNP.
But much, much more importantly, the Grimoire Herald dies to a 2nd Perils!!!
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 323, Grey Knights: 210
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 2
Paladins move up.
I'm in somewhat of a pickle. I've got 3 options:
1. My initial thought was to try to ground the LoC and then triple-assault the LoC, Portaglyph and unit of 2 horrors. However, you are looking at a 1 in 3 chance of grounding him and with re-rollable 2++, I'm not even sure I could get a wound through. Moreover, if he doesn't fall, then that means I don't get to charge anything at all!
2. I could go after just the Portaglyph and unit of 2 horrors. However, that would be a wasted turn and is exactly what daemons are hoping for. Killing those two basically buys daemons another turn of shooting - possibly with Misfortune - before the inevitable assault by the LoC. Also, I'd have to waste 1 turn of shooting because I need to assault and any shooting will most likely wipe out my target!
3. I could just shoot at the Pinkstar and try to do as much damage as I could. Then next turn, let his LoC with only a re-rollable 4++ save charge (thank goodness the Grimoire died).
I decide to go with what I felt was the least risky thing to do, option #3.
Shooting only kills 8 horrors. I actually make a mistake here as I thought they had Forewarning on. But while writing the report, I realized that they had failed to cast Forewarning on themselves. This means that the Pinkstar should have lost another 3-4 horrors.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 323, Grey Knights: 282
Pinkstar 2
This turn may be painful for the paladins. Horrors manage to get Misfortune off! They move back slightly.
The LoC glides to where Coteaz is.
Portaglyph spawns another 2 horrors, who continue to block off the paladins.
With Misfortune, shooting is utterly devastating. Coteaz fails to Look-Out-Sir Hellfire Gaze from the LoC. He manages to pass his 4++ Forewarning save the first time....but then fails it on the 2nd try due to Misfortune.
The rest of the shooting kills 3 more paladins and put 1W on a hammerdin, even after the paladins manage to Deny the shooting of the 2 smallish horror units.
Misfortune really did a number on them. That's 10W the daemons did to 2+ save models through sheer volume, Misfortune and 1 insta-kill by the Hellfire Gaze.
I then assault with all 3 units. Overwatch wipes out 1 unit of 2 horrors who assaulted first.
With horrors in combat as well, 2 of the paladins, including 1 hammer, will not get to strike at the LoC. Therefore, the Grandmaster challenges the LoC to try to minimize the damage.
Paladins do manage to win combat by 1 at the expense of their leader. However, the LoC would pass its Daemonic Instability test.
Wow. I did not expect this. I was expecting a much closer battle. This just shows how devastating the Pinkstar shooting can be. Even with all the failed psychic powers and Perils - meaning less shots by the Heralds - they were still able to inflict this much damage with their shooting. Of course Misfortune played a large role in this game. Kind of makes you wonder what could have happend between the Pinkstar and Farsight Tau had the Pinkstar really been able to mount some offense against them.
I have to put some of the blame for the lopsided victory, however, on the dice of the paladins. I felt bad for their poor rolling. On Turn 1, they couldn't deny a single Flickering Fire attempt, even with a 4+ Deny against the Horrors (and 5+ against the Heralds). Also, on Turn 1, their saves were abysmal, even without Misfortune on them. Even before Misfortune, they were rolling below-average on their saves.
Finally, I think I played the paladins a little too aggressively. You look at the nature of the grey knights - a very good assault unit with force weapons and Prescience/Prefered Enemy - and your natural and first instincts is that you want to get them into combat as quickly as possible, especially against a non-assault unit like the Pinkstar. However - and keep in mind this is with hindsight - looking back at the game, I now would have changed my strategy completely. I should have bided my time (for the knights) and let the LoC come to the knights instead. Also let the horrors come to them instead. This way, the knights will most likely get the first turn of shooting. Then you wait for the opportunity - it's bound to happen once or maybe even twice in the game on average - for the Grimoire to fail. That is when the knights should have pounced.
The Pinkstar is formidable indeed. I just may have to have a rematch between them and Tau.
Game #4 - 1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Seer Council Deldar
For the next 3 battles, I played against my friend and local Deldar expert, Grant (aka SonsofGrant here on dakka). His seer council is much feared in our area. So far I have played against them 4 times and I can honestly say that I hate Eldar, I hate Rues of Warding and I hate the seer council.
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
Coteaz - Foreboding, Misfortune
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)
Both armies got Misfortune, which is a frightening power. Misfortune is just what the knights needed to counter-act Eldar Fortune. Misfortune is also useful for Eldar to get through paladin 2+ saves. This is going to be a tough matchup for Eldar. They definitely have the mobility advantage. However, the knights will out-shoot and out-assault the space elves. Eldar can play the JSJ game - jump shoot jump. However, unlike Tau, their firepower just isn't all that scary, at least not to paladins. And should they roll low for their Assault jump move, they just may be in trouble. It'll be interesting to see how Eldar fights through what is potentially a bad matchup for them.
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (3+ Armour, +1W, It Will Not Die!), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Misfortune, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Foreboding, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Perfect Timing, Forewarning, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Perfect Timing, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire
This could potentially be a bad matchup for Daemons. Runes of Warding (RoW) alone is enough to really throw a monkey wrench into their plans. The game will probably come down to how often daemons fail their psychic tests due to Runes. If they can pass the majority of them....as well as get passed 4+/5+ Deny saves by Eldar....then they can win this. If not, then Deldar will probably take it.
Deldar got some good powers. Fortunately, daemons got 2 Perfect Timing to counter Invisibility. For the 4th straight game, I got Precognition on the LoC but no 4+ FNP. He may be a problem for Deldar as they only have a 1 in 3 chance to ground him and if they don't deal with him, the LoC can really hurt Deldar with Misfortune. Otherwise, with Fortune up, they may be able to weather horror shooting, especially since psychic shooting is not very reliable against RoW eldar with 4+/5+ Deny's. All in all, I think the seer council will have a slight advantage in this game. Who knows, maybe this game may be the only game so far where a deathstar doesn't get tabled.
Deldar turbo-boosts behind the LOS-blocking ruins. Of course, they cast their psychic powers first.
Daemons 1
Daemons shift around a little bit. One Herald (the Portaglyph) suffers Perils while trying to cast a spell.
Big Bird flies on top of the ruins. He also takes 1W from Perils while trying unsuccesfully to cast Precognition. The Grimoire goes off on the LoC but Forewarning fails to do so.
They drop off the Portaglyph. It fails to bring in reinforcements.
The Warpstorm does nothing. 1 horror dies to Perils while trying to cast Flickering Fire.
In the Shooting phase, Big Bird's shooting gets Denied.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 84, Daemons: 0
At the end of the turn, the LoC gains back his Wound due to It Will Not Die!
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Deldar 2
Deldar casts Invisibility and Fortune. Maybe Doom as well, but I may have denied it.
Instead of going after my horrors, my opponent decides to go after my LoC. That is a risky play on his part. There is only a 1 in 3 chance for him to ground my LoC in order to assault.
Shooting fails to hurt my LoC....but manages to ground him!
He then assaults. I forget to issue a challenge.
3+ armour just isn't good enough. I need the re-roll's of Precognition. Due to Invisibility and Fortune, I fail to hurt any of his guys while his guys take down my Warlord.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 389, Daemons: 0
Daemons 2
Well, that didn't turn out so well.
My Portaglyph Herald dies while trying to cast a psychic power. Another Herald Perils as well. I do manage to cast Perfect Timinig on the seer council.
At least I get the Grimoire to go off for 3++ Invuln's.
He then dies as well while trying to cast Flickering Fire! Everyone else, however, does manage to cast Flickering Fire, though I believe my opponent denies the horrors.
His saves are smoking red-hot. I put a lot of wounds into the unit but he only loses 2 warlocks.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 512, Daemons: 100
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Deldar 3
The seer council goes in for the kill.
Shooting doesn't do much so we go straight into combat. He multi-charges the Portaglyph and unit.
He fails to hurt the unit but manages to destroy the Portaglyph. Daemonic Instability then kills off another 2 horrors.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 530, Daemons: 100
Daemons 3
The Grimoire goes off. One of my Heralds takes 1W while trying to cast a Prescience, though the other one does manage to cast it successfully.
In combat, I fail to do anything to the seer council and they manage to kill 3 horrors. He also manages to put 1W on my Grimoire Herald through Precision Strikes. I then lose another 3 to Daemonic Instability.
The seer council then Hit-&-Runs out of combat.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 659, Daemons: 100
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Deldar 4
The seer council repositions themselves to inflict maximum destructor damage.
He shoots down 4 horrors....
....and then re-assaults me.
He allocates all Precision Strikes on my Heralds but I Look-Out-Sir all of them. He wipes out all of my Heralds.
I need to roll snake-eyes (1, 1) on my Leadership or I am done. Miraculously, I do.
What I forgot, however, was that Insane Courage (passing LD on snake-eyes) should have resurrected all the horrors he killed that turn.
Well, that game went pretty well....for Deldar. The seer council did what they needed to do and took care of business. He was fortunate to ground my LoC and without the re-roll's from Precognition, my Warlord just died to sheer volume. He then had 1 hot streak of saves against my horror shooting and that was all she wrote. I couldn't do anything to them in combat, at least not with Fortune on.
Runes of Warding, as I suspected, played a huge role in this game. It basically put a wound on almost all my psykers, even managing to kill off 1 Herald. More importantly, it denied me the chance to use some of my psychic powers as well as reduced the number of shots from my Heralds.
If they had to fight again, I still think the Pinkstar has got a shot against the seer council. They're just going to have to do it without the help of a lot of their psychic powers. Fortunately, there will be redundancy of powers with 5 Lvl 3 psykers in the army.
Wow, the dice gods were definitely pulling for the daemons this time. The daemons were really fortunate to ge their favorite powers, or this game might have been really close
Also noticed something that the marine player could have done T2: cruise land raider in between LoC & pinkstar; disembark termies + vulkan and servin; and let one quad-las & TLHB shoot the pinkstar, PotMS with other Quad-las at LoC, then assault termies w/ vulkan & servin at pinkstar. That might have wiped that group out early on and he'd still have an intact land raider to take more shots at LoC or shield the hammerstar from the LoC.
With all that, I believe that he could have tried to utilize his potent shooting in the SAT, and try for an earlier assault and try to screen the LoC.
Highly improbable. You cannot disembark if you move more than 6". So move 6", disembark 6" and now you're looking at about a 9" charge possibly. It would be risky because if you fail the charge, you are looking at a crapload of firepower coming your way and probably Misfortune as well.
But the key to a Space Marine victory is to multi-charge both units and let Daemonic Instability take care of the rest. That was what I wanted to pull off. I was thinking that the Spartan (with 5 Hull Points!) would be durable enough to survive the assault by the LoC. Then next turn, disembark and multi-assault, but not before the Spartan shoots up a grounded LoC with only a 3+/5++ save due to the Grimoire.
jy2 wrote:Moreover, his 2++ can come in quite handy. Put him in the front and he will tank any and all AP1/2 shots while passing small-arms fire to the rest of the unit. Concerned about him getting insta-killed? Not with Iron Arm on. Finally, he can still cast most of the Space Marine powers, including Null Zone.
Just want to say, he can't have table powers AND SM powers. One or the other. Still gives him a lot of strategy since he gets a full tree of powers.
felixcat wrote: I know I'm entering this topic a little late but how did you infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun ... this cannort be done. You could DS in turn two beside the deathstar but he cannot infiltrate with the group regardless of who is the warlord.
When we play the deathstar is it common to see Shadowsun infiltrating and the Farsight DSing with a riptide turn two with AGL/Comm help. Farsight can then either join the deathstar or stay put with the riptide.
The rule for infiltrating ICs is if a non-infiltrating IC joins a unit of infiltrators, they can't infiltrate. However, if an infiltrating IC join a non-infiltrator unit, they can infiltrate.
"An Independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."
Ypou have a choice DS farsight with deathstar and infiltrate shadowsun or infiltrate shadowsun with deathstar and DS farsight close by ... however, farsight can at the earliest join the deathstar turn three that way.
Personnaly the other daemon deathstar, the one I use, is
Daemon prince, mark of tzeentch, ml2 (both on biomancy) 2 greater 1 lesser, wings and armour 990pts
I think they will give most deathstars a run for their money!
GUO, I just find too slow, in a vacuum maybe (smaller board) but in a 6x4 I think he is too slow to do much good past protecting slay the warlord point (which he is VERY good at!)
I don't really like calling the demons a deathstar though. I mean, you have the one big unit with 4 heralds but I kind of think its cheating to have the LOC slapped on as well as he isn't really part of the deathstar. Other wise any demon composition can be made into a "deathstar" by bringing a GD. A true deathstar would be more like a huge unit of fiends with 4 slannesh heralds on seeker joined to them. Grimoire and greater aether blades and the locus of beguilement. Then all max PM levels.
Are you going for Deathstars or 1000 point lists that use expensive things? I seems as though lots of the ideas posted by people aren't really "deathstars."
I tend to think you should limit to single units and possibly attached transports.
"An Independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."
Ypou have a choice DS farsight with deathstar and infiltrate shadowsun or infiltrate shadowsun with deathstar and DS farsight close by ... however, farsight can at the earliest join the deathstar turn three that way.
Also read IC and note you join them to a unit DURING that units deployment meaning if you choose to infiltrate shadowsun she deploys after the bodyguard (or any other none infiltrating unit for that matter) and cannot infiltrate the unit with her as infiltrate is a special deployment and in order for her to join a unit she has to deploy when they do. This is why they didn't need to put the reverse note in the infiltrate section, because IC deployment already prevents it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JGrand wrote: Are you going for Deathstars or 1000 point lists that use expensive things? I seems as though lots of the ideas posted by people aren't really "deathstars."
I tend to think you should limit to single units and possibly attached transports.
This was my concern as well. Its becoming less about deathstars and more about combos. Still cool but note that every race can't make a true deathstar while others excel at them.
I'm not sure of that but since this is not a rules topic I'll let it go. Going second it is better DSing the lot anyway and you can always infiltrate shadowsun with a riotide turn one and later join up to the deathstar turn two. Regardless ... in the batrep you cannot deploy as shown.
phantommaster wrote: I was thinking about this myself, going to the unusual routes, SM and BA Bikers generally, but I came to this:
Lucius
Lvl 3 Slaaneshi Termie Sorceror: Power Axe, Force Staff, Spell Familiar, 4++, VotLW
20 Noise Marines: 2 Blast Masters, 17 Sonic Blasters, all CCW's, Icon, Champion has Doom Siren and PF/LC, VotLW
Just under 1000pts
Lots of models and FNP, I5 for combats, 3 Champs for challenges, slow but heavy shooting to whittle down enemies, Sorceror boosts all Sonic Weapons. Combat is reasonable but won't stand to Paladins.
There are several issues with this deathstar which keeps it from being an actual deathstar.
1. Its strength is its shooting. However, it can't move and still fire salvo shots (unless the Sorcerer gets Endurance for Relentless). Thus, you move and now your shooting is much less effective. Also, they've got no re-roll's to hit.
2. Lack of mobility. Move and your offense suffers.
3. Lack of resiliency. 5+ FNP on top of 3+ guys isn't really all that good. The sorceror with only 2W and only a 2+/4++ isn't ideal in tanking incoming shots, though he will help a little. As long as he loses his first Wound, however, you don't want him tanking shots any longer.
4. Lack of assault. Honestly, normal marines fight like crap. With hardly any power weapons/fists and no re-roll's to hit, they're going to be on the losing end every time against assault deathstars. Also, once Lucious gets killed in combat (and he will), the whole unit is in danger of being swept.
MarkyMark wrote: The model has a axe anyway Ace, so no issue there!. I have the model just never used his rules
Yep you are right Jy2, as long as you pass the grimoure test you are fine!, if not you are screwed.
Used LoC tonight, had the insta kill warlord trait took out 3 wraiths then DP swept the destroyer lord, then insta killed two spyders and DP insta killed 6 scarab bases and another lord was swept,
In second game against a farsight bomb, they killed 6 horrors as I went to ground for 3 cover then LoC flew over, took all the shooting not losing a wound, took one wound on overwatch (thanks to 4 plus FNP) then challenged and insta killed farsight and swept the unit. The staff of change blowing up characters is also fun!. Yes he is a beast, just the force weapons worry me a lot! Hopefully your grimoure rolls are good
When he's on (the LoC), he is ridiculously good. However, when he's off (don't get the right powers, failed Grimoire, wrong gifts), then he can still perform....you just need to play him very conservatively. I've had games where he's been an absolute beast. I've also had games where he's gotten shot down before actually being able to do much. But that's just the nature of chaos. Force weapons are worrisome, however, what MC has the potential to wipe out an entire unit of paladins all by himself? I'd say the LoC is one of the few who can.
Dozer Blades wrote: This thread is like a reverse look at fifth edition by way of genuflecting. Deathstars can't cut the mustard anymore. I would rather see Batreps showcasing cutting edge armies. It really doesn't matter which deathstar is the best.
I'd have to disagree. If anything, 6th has made deathstars more dominant. Now some of the better deathstars in the game (besides Draigowing) involves allies - the Dark Harliestar, Seer Council deldar and IG blobs with Space Marine characters just to name a few. However, nothing's really changed much since 5th. Deathstars have gotten better due to allies....but then again, so have balanced armies due to allies. Deathstars do have a place in this edition. Just like MSU, deathstars are still strong. However, with the advent of allies, now almost every army has gotten stronger as well so that things are more or less the same in 6th as they were in 5th.
Damn, just played against Sevrin -head Loth last night. Lol. He was in a 50-man blob squad.
Only had 1 S8 shooting in my army - soulgrinder phelgm - which I shot at his blob squad (with Sevrin in front). He failed all but 1 Look-Out-Sirs and then proceeded to roll a for his 2++ Invuln save. Splat.
Damn, you can get 10 biker units? I like it! I will add this to the Deathstars Under Consideration list.
You can, and conga-line them into CC. Not entirely sure why he put Sevrin in the front really, since he becomes majority T3 and then all he has is a 2+ save, which he is LOS ing. Surely the point of the blob is to protect him Or was it Ordnance?
I think RW are a dark horse here because people seriously underestimate Hit and Run. They have the mobility and assault potential to catch the shooty Deathstars and the mobility and guns to kite, shoot, and counter-charge the assault deathstars, and then hit and run out to do it all over again. They do hugely hinge on Invisibility though, I have no idea what BKs are like without it (I've rolled invisibility in every game for the past 17 games... what) and are not as durable having only 1w each. Blind is also a surprise, although I have no idea how it works in multiple initiative units. Does it test on majority or what?
It might be worth it to take 2 Librarians with PFGs instead of Azrael, because Invisibility is that important.
Sevrin was near the front (there were still some guys in front of him) in order to get the best possible range (and to get LOS) to cast some of his powers (Enfeeble on my scouting Khorne-dogs). We were playing 2v2 and he had Tau allies with 2 riptides and their S6 burst cannons. We then shot down all those guys until Sevrin was the first guy in front when my teammate's soulgrinder fired his phlegm.
As an opponent, I hate to play against Hit & Run. Against those units, I just try to shoot them down. I've never really used Blind as well so I can't say for sure how that works.
"An Independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."
Ypou have a choice DS farsight with deathstar and infiltrate shadowsun or infiltrate shadowsun with deathstar and DS farsight close by ... however, farsight can at the earliest join the deathstar turn three that way.
Also read IC and note you join them to a unit DURING that units deployment meaning if you choose to infiltrate shadowsun she deploys after the bodyguard (or any other none infiltrating unit for that matter) and cannot infiltrate the unit with her as infiltrate is a special deployment and in order for her to join a unit she has to deploy when they do. This is why they didn't need to put the reverse note in the infiltrate section, because IC deployment already prevents it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JGrand wrote: Are you going for Deathstars or 1000 point lists that use expensive things? I seems as though lots of the ideas posted by people aren't really "deathstars."
I tend to think you should limit to single units and possibly attached transports.
This was my concern as well. Its becoming less about deathstars and more about combos. Still cool but note that every race can't make a true deathstar while others excel at them.
Fine... a fluffy Deathstar:
Bad Company
20 Death Company, 1000 pts
1 Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, 150 pts
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
Total roster cost: 1000pts
You can drop some of the weapons and mix them around as you see fit. You can also drop all of the weapons and bump their numbers. Either way I would not want to see this deathstar barreling down on me.
HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 365 pts)
1 Daemon Prince (HQ) [CSM], 365 pts = (Power Armour + Wings + Increase Mastery Level x3 + Daemon of Tzeentch + Gift of Mutation + Spell Familiar)
1 The Black Mace [Chaos]
With the daemon prince rolling biomancy this could be a funny list with everything possibly being T8 or higher.. .lol
GUO's are a little too slow for my taste....hell, who am I kidding. They suck! They can't even run and have very little shooting. Sorry, that's my honest opinion of the GUO. Moreover, if you want to do well with Chaos Daemon MC's, you have to take a chance on the Grimoire. I like the Black Mace CSM, but he can't beat a deathstar all by himself. He needs some other fast guys alongside of him to give a little help.
Red Corsair wrote: I don't really like calling the demons a deathstar though. I mean, you have the one big unit with 4 heralds but I kind of think its cheating to have the LOC slapped on as well as he isn't really part of the deathstar. Other wise any demon composition can be made into a "deathstar" by bringing a GD. A true deathstar would be more like a huge unit of fiends with 4 slannesh heralds on seeker joined to them. Grimoire and greater aether blades and the locus of beguilement. Then all max PM levels.
The Pinkstar is more of a mini-star. I just added the LoC to get them up to 1K to compete against the other "true" deathstars. I really wanted to see what the Pinkstar could do.
JGrand wrote: Are you going for Deathstars or 1000 point lists that use expensive things? I seems as though lots of the ideas posted by people aren't really "deathstars."
I tend to think you should limit to single units and possibly attached transports.
I prefer true deathstars or deathstars that can get as close to the 1K mark as possible for this experiment. The Pinkstar goes up to 695 pts, but I feel that it is potent enough to compete against the "big guys". It's offense (shooting) is on the level of a true deathstar and its resiliency is just as great. I just threw in the LoC, which actually makes for an excellent complementary unit, to make the fights more fair.
The DC one is pretty mean!, 22 wounds so on par with dragio, and a 3plus and 5 FNP so a little worse then 2plus
You could go 30 of em, non JP's though, 7 with bolters powerfists, 5 with infernus pistols CCW and 18 with BPCCW and lemartes, thats 115 WS5 str 5 attacks on charge, rerolling to hit and to wound, and 28 ws5 str 9 attacks re rolling again.
Their issue is though with being charged, really nullifes them! Saying this makes me want to do a death company army again!
MarkyMark wrote: The DC one is pretty mean!, 22 wounds so on par with dragio, and a 3plus and 5 FNP so a little worse then 2plus
You could go 30 of em, non JP's though, 7 with bolters powerfists, 5 with infernus pistols CCW and 18 with BPCCW and lemartes, thats 115 WS5 str 5 attacks on charge, rerolling to hit and to wound, and 28 ws5 str 9 attacks re rolling again.
Their issue is though with being charged, really nullifes them! Saying this makes me want to do a death company army again!
That is why the jump packs are in there as that helps with them being able to get the charge. In addition, it helps with mobility as they need to get to the enemy fast.
That's the problem with the Pinkstar, they get utterly shafted if you go second or fail your grimoire against things that are as shooty as you.
Farsight bomb seems a tad more scary than I thought it was, although you can't infiltrate the unit with Shadowsun.
In the second game, I don't think multi-charging was the right thing to do. The only threat to the Hammerstar was the LoC, as he didn't have the grimoire save that turn they should have just charged him and killed him.
They'd then be able to whittle down the Pinkstar in assault and wait for a failed grimoire roll (I doubt the horrors do much dmg in cc...)
Also, Sevrin Loth can't have Telepathy, or roll on different disciplines. He has to take 6 powers from a single discipline, which is restricted to Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis, and may not have different powers from each one.
"Loth may either use Smite, Force Dome, Machine Curse, The Avenger,
Quickening, Null Zone and Vortex of Doom (see page 57 of the Space
Marine Codex), or generate six powers from a single discipline chosen
from the following: (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, page 418): Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis."
Blind makes a unit test on Initiative, if it fails it shoots at BS 1 and WS 1 until the start of the next game turn, although I'm not sure how it works on mixed-initiative units like the Farsight bomb.
Lurker wrote: So I checked the wording on the Eldar Codex. It is definitely a MAY for the warlock powers.
So the original squad can be fielded without issue.
check page 27, it states "Each Warlock is a psyker and MUST be given a single warlock power at the points cost listed in the army list."
So no each Warlock has to take a Warlock power
Which print run of the codex do you have? I was just in the store and it clearly said 'MAY' on Page 60 in the actual army list entry. I didn't look at page 27 while I was in the store though...
So not sure which is which and it's always been an issue. I won't be near a game store anytime soon but it would be interesting if anyone is to see what the most up-to-date ruling is on this (well, at least for the next month that it actually matters until the new dex is released...).
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: That's the problem with the Pinkstar, they get utterly shafted if you go second or fail your grimoire against things that are as shooty as you.
Farsight bomb seems a tad more scary than I thought it was, although you can't infiltrate the unit with Shadowsun.
In the second game, I don't think multi-charging was the right thing to do. The only threat to the Hammerstar was the LoC, as he didn't have the grimoire save that turn they should have just charged him and killed him.
They'd then be able to whittle down the Pinkstar in assault and wait for a failed grimoire roll (I doubt the horrors do much dmg in cc...)
Also, Sevrin Loth can't have Telepathy, or roll on different disciplines. He has to take 6 powers from a single discipline, which is restricted to Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis, and may not have different powers from each one.
"Loth may either use Smite, Force Dome, Machine Curse, The Avenger,
Quickening, Null Zone and Vortex of Doom (see page 57 of the Space
Marine Codex), or generate six powers from a single discipline chosen
from the following: (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, page 418): Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis."
Blind makes a unit test on Initiative, if it fails it shoots at BS 1 and WS 1 until the start of the next game turn, although I'm not sure how it works on mixed-initiative units like the Farsight bomb.
Yeah, they do have that drawback. But I don't mind losing a few horrors. They're only 9-pts each. If you really have to, deploy in area terrain and then go-to-ground (assuming your opponent cannot remove your cover). What choice do you have? Even Draigowing has this problem. If Tau goes first against them, they're probably going to lose a few guys to plasmas and meltas.
The Farsight-bomb is really good IMO. Although I didn't really mention it, my prediction before any of these games were played was that Tau would be the favorite to win this tournament (now there....I've mentioned it. ).
I actually thought about just assaulting the LoC while ignoring the horrors but decided against it because:
1) The terminators were basically surrounded. Their movement were severely hampered. Assaulting the LoC meant that some of the guys wouldn't be able to pile-in and fight due to the horrors around them. Thus, I lose some attacks.
2) The LoC could challenge one of the characters to take him out of the picture.
3) I was concerned about over-killing the LoC. Then next turn, the terminators would be open to Misfortune and a devastating shooting turn from the horrors. I was really more concerned about Tzeentch shooting than assault.
4) And if the terminators didn't kill the LoC, next turn you are looking at a potential re-rollable 2++ FMC. That is an auto-win for daemons. They've already got the LR Spartan. The LoC would just be slowly killing terminators in combat all game.
Both strategies had some risks. I just felt that trying to beat daemons through Daemonic Instability was the better play.
20 Death Company, 1000 pts
1 Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, 150 pts
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
Total roster cost: 1000pts
You can drop some of the weapons and mix them around as you see fit. You can also drop all of the weapons and bump their numbers. Either way I would not want to see this deathstar barreling down on me.
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
For sure. Speak for yourself on the resiliency. They are T4 plague marines that hit like a truck. You can also trade the infernus pistols for plasma but the infernus dont overheat and help against MW models. Just from the 5 PF alone that is 20 Re-roll to hits and wounds. Enough to kill off the paladin squad easily.
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
For sure. Speak for yourself on the resiliency. They are T4 plague marines that hit like a truck. You can also trade the infernus pistols for plasma but the infernus dont overheat and help against MW models. Just from the 5 PF alone that is 20 Re-roll to hits and wounds. Enough to kill off the paladin squad easily.
But paladins could play the range game and whittle them down with psycannon fire for a few turns. Force weapons will ignore fnp, and halberds will strike first, but yes. It would be very close and is quite a formidible deathstar. Also the paladins will be re-rolling to hit from presience, and the gm can cast hammerhand for making wounds easier.
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
For sure. Speak for yourself on the resiliency. They are T4 plague marines that hit like a truck. You can also trade the infernus pistols for plasma but the infernus dont overheat and help against MW models. Just from the 5 PF alone that is 20 Re-roll to hits and wounds. Enough to kill off the paladin squad easily.
But paladins could play the range game and whittle them down with psycannon fire for a few turns. Force weapons will ignore fnp, and halberds will strike first, but yes. It would be very close and is quite a formidible deathstar. Also the paladins will be re-rolling to hit from presience, and the gm can cast hammerhand for making wounds easier.
Who brings that many halberds on palidins though? I dont think they will kite them around for too long, besides you could always add a blood angel libby to the bomb for shield of sanguinius or forwarning if he rolls it. With jump packs and run rolls the palidins won't be shooting more then twice with there 24" range. I actually really like that death company bomb
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
For sure. Speak for yourself on the resiliency. They are T4 plague marines that hit like a truck. You can also trade the infernus pistols for plasma but the infernus dont overheat and help against MW models. Just from the 5 PF alone that is 20 Re-roll to hits and wounds. Enough to kill off the paladin squad easily.
Ok, TK, this is for you.
Bonus Deathmatch #2
This is what I would call the "warmup" game before the match between the Draigowing and Tau.
1000 Draigowing Grey Knights
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead. I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost
4x Death Company - Jump Packs, Infernus Pistols
5x Death Company - Jump Packs, Power Fists
10x Death Company - Jump Packs
1000
Battle report coming up tomorrow morning on p.5.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shandara wrote: And denying on a 4+ vs the horrors, it's going to hurt.
That's 5+ Deny. All my Tzeentch psykers are Lvl 3.
Ive got my money and my house on draigowing winning this one, 20 psycannon shots with re-rolls, If you play it smart should try and get 2 turns of shooting in, would be enough to kill of a good chunk of death company.
Then with forboding, and re-rolls, even more will be killed of on overwatch. When it gets to combat would be close but now with activated force weapons to ignore fnp and hitting before or the same time, and again with re-rolls from prescience to hit, and the re-rolls of 1 to wound.
Just wondering jy2, why mc some psycannons if they will have re-rolls from prescience anyway?
If you could have rad grenades instead, make the DC T3, then cast hammer hand to wound on 2's with all the regular attacks, re-rolling to hit (prescience) and wounding on 2's with re-rolls (grand stratagy) would be very killy.
You dont ever walk up the pallie star towards the tau, you euther deepstrike it all within 12 of the tau and shoot half dead or you mishap and loose the game.
Also, where is the apotechary to help save against all the plasma?
Why no librarian in the pallie star?
Sanctuary, shrouding, even vortex and excommunication would do good vs clustered tau or deamons in cc.
tuiman wrote: Ive got my money and my house on draigowing winning this one, 20 psycannon shots with re-rolls, If you play it smart should try and get 2 turns of shooting in, would be enough to kill of a good chunk of death company.
Then with forboding, and re-rolls, even more will be killed of on overwatch. When it gets to combat would be close but now with activated force weapons to ignore fnp and hitting before or the same time, and again with re-rolls from prescience to hit, and the re-rolls of 1 to wound.
Just wondering jy2, why mc some psycannons if they will have re-rolls from prescience anyway?
If you could have rad grenades instead, make the DC T3, then cast hammer hand to wound on 2's with all the regular attacks, re-rolling to hit (prescience) and wounding on 2's with re-rolls (grand stratagy) would be very killy.
The Master-craft upgrades are only point-fillers. I couldn't think of what else to get with only 10-pts left...perhaps servo-skulls? Rad grenades are 15-pts....couldn't afford them.
Pyriel- wrote: GK vs Tau should be all about deepstriking imo.
You dont ever walk up the pallie star towards the tau, you euther deepstrike it all within 12 of the tau and shoot half dead or you mishap and loose the game.
Also, where is the apotechary to help save against all the plasma?
Why no librarian in the pallie star?
Sanctuary, shrouding, even vortex and excommunication would do good vs clustered tau or deamons in cc.
Cannot deepstrike unless they arrive on Turn 1 (or leave 1 model deployed and hiding). Otherwise, they are tabled if they don't have a model on the board at the end of the game turn.
Can't afford apothecaries and librarians. Only had 1000-pts to work with. Coteaz is a much better bargain if points is a limitation. I decided to opt for more offense (shooting and psychic powers) than defense (apothecary). Grand Strategy from the Grandmaster is also nice, giving the paladins some extra movement and making their offense more effective (re-roll 1's or counter-attack).
Dozer Blades wrote: jy2 - I can beat any DS you throw out there. Look how bad your deamons did. The DS is passe.
I don't doubt it. I can probably beat almost any DS out there as well. Army versus army is a whole different ballgame compared to deathstar vs deathstar.
DS vs DS is more like gladiator combat for some spectator fun. Army vs army is a battle where Tactics, synergy between units and teamwork play a much more important role.
But armies with deathstars or mini-deathstars (which is probably actually better than a true deathstar in actual games) can be good enough to give even the best, balanced armies out there higly competitive games.
Dozer Blades wrote: jy2 - I can beat any DS you throw out there. Look how bad your deamons did. The DS is passe.
What exactly are you trying to prove Dozer Blades? That you know how to beat a deathstar? fething wow.
This is a thread about death-star on death-star action, not MY DEATHSTAR WINS ALL TOURNAMENTS AND 40K AND THE UNIVERSE! If you don't want to read it, go somewhere else, and leave the rest of us to enjoy the silliness.
Ok, getting to some of the rules issues here. There were a number of rules debates and I didn't respond to them first because I wanted to take the time to research them myself. So now to address some of those issues.
skyfi wrote: Jy2 check pg 38 jink, no 3+ cover for nob bikers. 4+ when turbo boost now but they always get 4+ from exhaust fumes. Not huge but wanted you to know so #s aren't skewed.
They lost 3+ when 6th dropped
You are right. I missed that. Thanks.
skyfi wrote: You can't deffrolla and fire normally with skorchas? I think its snap shots only if you ram/tank shock.
You also can't assault after a ram or tank shock anymore, despite it being open topped. 6th was harsh on the BW..
I also believe the deffrolla hits do not ignore cover. I don't see anything (other than logic) to support this unless it was faq'd recently and I missed it.
Dakkamite that is a good build with grotsnik, and with zogwort being a warphead hes got 2 shots at getting the teleport spell for mobility right? MANz would have to have cybork or be scoring tho if ya grab ol zoggy (and with bs0 will he be allowed to do shooting psychic abilities at all0
Correct. Once a unit embarks/disembarks from a vehicle, it cannot tank shock or ram.
You can shoot as normal depending on your speed when you do a tank shock. However, you can only ever snap-fire when you do a ram.
You cannot assault on the turn you tank-shock because you cannot disembark after you tank-shock. And if you disembark before you tank shock, then you cannot tank shock at all.
You can use cover saves against the deff'rolla hits (from the Ork FAQ).
felixcat wrote: I know I'm entering this topic a little late but how did you infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun ... this cannort be done. You could DS in turn two beside the deathstar but he cannot infiltrate with the group regardless of who is the warlord.
When we play the deathstar is it common to see Shadowsun infiltrating and the Farsight DSing with a riptide turn two with AGL/Comm help. Farsight can then either join the deathstar or stay put with the riptide.
According to consensus, you are correct. Most of the "rules" people believe that you cannot infiltrate an IC with the Infiltrate USR with a non-infiltrating unit because in order to infiltrate, the IC needs to join the unit before deployment. However, if you infiltrate him, you cannot deploy him yet, at least not until the rest of the army is deployed. The unit you want to infiltrate him with, however, needs to be deployed.
It is a somewhat asinine oversight by GW. This practically makes all infiltrating IC's unable to infiltrate with their units unless the unit has infiltrate as well. I doubt this is the RAI and think it needs a FAQ. Currently, infiltrate can only be used to ouflank with another unit.
JY2!!! just read the whole thread and i really like this idea.
I also agree with your assessment that the Farsun star should win it all!!!
Furthermore, I am 100% in agreement with you that RAI shadowsun can infiltrate a unit but since it is up in the air I personally dont use it like that right now, even with the shrike faq correlation......
According to consensus, you are correct. Most of the "rules" people believe that you cannot infiltrate an IC with the Infiltrate USR with a non-infiltrating unit because in order to infiltrate, the IC needs to join the unit before deployment. However, if you infiltrate him, you cannot deploy him yet, at least not until the rest of the army is deployed. The unit you want to infiltrate him with, however, needs to be deployed.
It is a somewhat asinine oversight by GW. This practically makes all infiltrating IC's unable to infiltrate with their units unless the unit has infiltrate as well. I doubt this is the RAI and think it needs a FAQ. Currently, infiltrate can only be used to ouflank with another unit.
Just to clarify - if a unit has Infiltrate (ie, the IC) you don't have a choice to deploy him with the rest of the army ever. He's either deployed at infiltrate time or held in reserves for Outflank.
This is what causes the issue really. In 5th they changed it so that ICs could join before deployment - and may well in 6th. It may be intended, however, for them to only be able to join a unit for Outflank.
It wouldn't bother me playing either way.
Theorius wrote: JY2!!! just read the whole thread and i really like this idea.
I also agree with your assessment that the Farsun star should win it all!!!
Furthermore, I am 100% in agreement with you that RAI shadowsun can infiltrate a unit but since it is up in the air I personally dont use it like that right now, even with the shrike faq correlation......
Yeah, I'll let my opponent know. When rules are unclear, I usually go for the more conservative intepretation - or the one that gives the least advantage - unless I felt strongly that it was wrong.
In our 2 games, we were actually unaware of this infiltrating technicality so I was ok with him infiltrating his unit. Honestly, it wouldn't have made a difference to the outcome at all.
Just to clarify - if a unit has Infiltrate (ie, the IC) you don't have a choice to deploy him with the rest of the army ever. He's either deployed at infiltrate time or held in reserves for Outflank.
This is what causes the issue really. In 5th they changed it so that ICs could join before deployment - and may well in 6th. It may be intended, however, for them to only be able to join a unit for Outflank.
It wouldn't bother me playing either way.
Thanks for the clarification. Always good to have a rules guru nearby.
I'd love to see the pinkstar vs a Dark harlestar. Can we get a look at that?
How much damage can they do to get past a 2+ re-rollable? Even when all there damage is done on 3d6 and DtW'ed on a 4+. The placement would be akin to this. K being karandras, V being vect, E being eldrad and SS being shadowdseer. First turn infaltrate into cover, wait out fire storm, next turn charge! You have to handle 1 turn of shooting on a 2+ re-rollable armour save of eternal warrior, with LoS onto vect AP 2. I also want to see if vect can handle the big bird, that would be an amazing fight.
jy2 wrote: Thanks for the clarification. Always good to have a rules guru nearby.
As long as someone doesn't take that as a negative connotation
I'm really a great guy to play with I just also happen to enjoy discussing rules.
I mean it in the nicest way.
Rules Guru is good.
Rules lawyer is bad.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I'd love to see the pinkstar vs a Dark harlestar. Can we get a look at that?
How much damage can they do to get past a 2+ re-rollable? Even when all there damage is done on 3d6 and DtW'ed on a 4+. The placement would be akin to this. K being karandras, V being vect, E being eldrad and SS being shadowdseer. First turn infaltrate into cover, wait out fire storm, next turn charge! You have to handle 1 turn of shooting on a 2+ re-rollable armour save of eternal warrior, with LoS onto vect AP 2. I also want to see if vect can handle the big bird, that would be an amazing fight.
K
H H V H H
H SS E H
H Tm H
I'll try to set that game up. Frankie from Frontline Gaming runs the Harliestar. If he's available, I'll play him. Otherwise, I may have to proxy the Harliestar as I don't own eldar.
I was surprised you charged with the draigowing tbh, I thought you would let them come to you considering you would get a free round of shooting from overwatch.
Good to see it worked out in the end though, What I love about draigowing is how much you can customize with halberds/swords/hammers, you can take enough of each to take down most threats.
Game #2 - Grey Knights vs Tau - completed on p. 5.
tuiman wrote: I was surprised you charged with the draigowing tbh, I thought you would let them come to you considering you would get a free round of shooting from overwatch.
Good to see it worked out in the end though, What I love about draigowing is how much you can customize with halberds/swords/hammers, you can take enough of each to take down most threats.
I didn't charge with my paladinstar. I just moved forwards and shot with them (killing 7). I then let the angels charge me next turn, killing another 6 from Overwatch.
Coming up tomorrow....Game #3 - Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Pinkstar Daemons.
Then it's Farsight Tau vs Reader's Choice. Yes, I will let the readers pick the deathstar they think has the best chance against the Farsight-bomb (any deathstar other than the Seer council). My choice would be Nob bikers or Khorne-dog Daemons (you can find the lists on p.2 - Deathstars Under Consideration). So let me know which army you would like to see try to give Farsight his 1st loss.
Then on Thursday, it's the debut of the Seer Council, run by my friend Grant (aka SonsofGrant here on dakka).
For the GK vs Tau was there any kind of actual terrain other than the large block thing in the middle? Were those little slope hills area terrain or something? I just imagine if there was any kind of cover tau would have taken a lot less casualties. Also how big is your table? It looks very small.
Yeah, there was a lot of terrain. We were both just playing near the center away from all the other terrain. He was trying to get within 12" of me each turn in order to rapid-fire his plasmas. Then he would jump away and use the center terrain for 2+ cover. Yes, he was getting 2+ cover every single turn (with the exception of the few drones I could see) and yes, paladin shooting with Prescience is that good. It will make mince meat of even 2+ models over time (that's why a unit of paladin will consistently beat a unit of hamminators due to their shooting).
All the tables I was playing on are 6x4 standard tables. We just didn't use very much of it because there was no need.
Aret psycannons only 24" range? why even go into rapid fire until you whittle them down?
Did he need to rush forward to keep that mountain between you?
I think the paladins should have died more horribly personally, i dont know why his command suit could be in a position to die....it should go down last everytime, or did you get it with some trickery precision shots?
Glad to see they pulled it out though!!!!
I think i will come this thursday as well to see the seer vs farsun!!
As a longtime Tau player, I'm glad to see the Farsight deathstar doing so well, but I do have to make one comment. How was he insta-killing your paladins? Tau Missile Pods are only Str 7, and the Plasma Rifles are only Str 6. Did he swap out the plasma in the original list for Fusion Blasters? Otherwise those suits have no way to insta-gib your pallys.
Theorius wrote: Aret psycannons only 24" range? why even go into rapid fire until you whittle them down?
Did he need to rush forward to keep that mountain between you?
I think the paladins should have died more horribly personally, i dont know why his command suit could be in a position to die....it should go down last everytime, or did you get it with some trickery precision shots?
Glad to see they pulled it out though!!!!
I think i will come this thursday as well to see the seer vs farsun!!
He under-estimated my range when he deployed. He probably also figured that he would be getting 2+ cover, but with my 6" Scout move and then 6" normal move, I was able to get into a position to shoot at most of his units without cover (though I did give a couple of his drones 2+ cover).
He wanted to move forwards to get into plasma double-tap range and then jump back behind cover. That was probably why he didn't deploy further away.
His Command Node suit was actually all the way in the back. Normally, I wouldn't be able to get to him. However, this time the terrain worked to my advantage. It blocked LOS to the other guys, meaning he couldn't allocate wounds to them. I could only see the left 3 suits (which had his important guys....lol) and therefore only those models could get killed. On the flip side, had I caused something like 40 wounds, the rest of the wounds would just get wasted after I killed all the guys I could see.
With 4++ Invuln's and 2W, I think the paladins should have survived much better. I shouldn't have lost 6 guys from 1 turn of shooting. That was just dumb luck on my part.
DMDaddy0 wrote: As a longtime Tau player, I'm glad to see the Farsight deathstar doing so well, but I do have to make one comment. How was he insta-killing your paladins? Tau Missile Pods are only Str 7, and the Plasma Rifles are only Str 6. Did he swap out the plasma in the original list for Fusion Blasters? Otherwise those suits have no way to insta-gib your pallys.
Shadowsun with 2 fusion blasters. On Turn 1 where I lost 6 paladins, Shadowsun insta-gibbed 2 of them. The rest died from plasmas and possibly even missiles due to horrible saves on my part.
Pretty much played out how I thought it would. Maybe a bit better for the paladins. I'll just pray that the cowardly Tau get a piece of the greater good up their plasma gun when the slightly less cowardly Eldar come to play.
1000 Rematch - Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Seer Council Deldar Part II
Because the first matchup between the 2 (battle report on p. 6) happened so quickly, I decided to give Grant a chance for redemption. He demanded a rematch and I was happy to go kick some more eldar a$$ again....I mean, to oblige.
BTW, this match isn't official as far as the tournament goes. Only the first matchup between them will count. The rematch is only for the sake of eldar pride (or shame).
Yikes! Hallucination is probably the worst power the knights can go up against. That power alone can literally win the game for eldar. Why? Because they can cause the knights to insta-kill themselves with their own force weapons, whether in assault or not! Just this power alone will make eldar a scary foe for the knights. Also, this time, there is no Misfortune that the space elves need to worry about. By going first, they are assured of being able to get off Fortune.
I expect this to be a much more competitive matchup between the two. As a matter of fact, I think Deldar will be the slight favorite here. They don't even have to make a move really to win the game. All they really need to do is to stay at a distance, keep on casting Hallucination and then watch the knights self-destruct as they commit hari-kari.
I deploy right at my deployment edge as well about 24" away from the enemy. I am safe for the time being against Hallucination because his farseers are in the rear.
Overview of our deployment.
I then roll to seize....and fail. But wait! Coteaz let's you re-roll the attempt to seize, so I roll again....
So after casting my psychic power (Prescience), the paladins move up. I make sure most of my guys are in range to shoot but still out of range of his farseer's psychic powers.
I then let it rip.
It was just awful for Deldar! I kill 5 warlocks. Then he had to do Look-Out-Sirs for his Baron because my psycannons would have insta-killed him. Unfortunately, the 2 closest guys to him were his 2 farseers and I end up killing both!
With that, he concedes yet again.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 0, Grey Knights: 1000
Crushing Victory by the Paladinstar Grey Knights!!!
Wow. 1 special rule from my character changed everything. This is about as one-sided as it gets. Just when I thought I had set a record for fastest game in their last matchup, I manage to break that record this game. Just wow.
No evaluation of the deathstars is complete without including the Ork Nob Bikers. Nob bikers was the quintessential deathstar ever since 4th edition when you could wrap wounds around the guys so that they became nearly indestructible. In 5th they were still one of the most dominant deathstars, though Draigowing had overtook them as the quintessential deathstar in that edition. Now in 6th, they have dropped off somewhat in terms of power, especially after the 6th Ed. FAQ's took away wound allocation shenanigans. However, IMO they are still a highly competitive deathstar even though they have lost their uber status. The question now becomes: how does one of the oldest deathstars stack up compared to the newer breeds of ultra-shooty deathstars?
To find out, I have a series of test games with the nob bikers facing all 3 armies - the Paladinstar grey knights, Pinkstar daemons and Farsight Tau. Can they compete? Game #1 coming right up.
BTW, for the next 2 ork battles, SabrX will be my sparring partner. He will be playing the orks.
This is probably the worst possible matchup for the Ork Nob Bikers, especially now that FNP was FAQ'd to not work against Force Weapons. The grey knights are superior in both shooting and assault. Psychic powers such as Prescience just brings them over-the-top, whereas Foreboding essentially gives them another turn of shooting. Unless the nob bikers get lucky with the dice (or the knights roll terribly), I just can't see them beating the paladinstar in a straight-up fight.
Fine, if that's how he wants to play it, I'd be more than happy to oblige. After casting their psychic powers, my knights advance (but more towards the flanks rather than directly) and then run 5".
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Orks 2
My opponent wants nothing to do with my shooting. He scoots his nob bikers back to make sure I won't be able to shoot them.
Grey Knights 2
Still playing the waiting game, I see. Fine, I will give some motivation to play like real orks.
I advance my paladins and then run them 5-6". I make sure they are about 18-19" away from his bikers. This should be enough to draw them out, yet my Overwatch may take him out of assault range (or so that was my plan).
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Orks 3
The temptation is just too great. He takes the bait.
He shoots at me and I fail my 1st 4 saves!
1 hammerdin dies and my Grandmaster takes 2W.
SabrX then calls the Waagh. Overwatch takes down 2 nob bikers via Look-Out-Sirs as well as put 1W on his 2nd warboss.
He makes it into combat thanks to the Waagh and challenges my Grandmaster. I decline and my halberds force weapon his Warboss to death. The rest of our guys cannot make it into combat because there is no one in base anymore and so we both just consolidate in.
Fortunately for my opponent, his nob bikers make their Morale test at LD6.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 265, Orks: 173
Grey Knights 3
This time, the knights really take it to the orks. Grandmaster challenges his warboss. However, I fluff my attacks, only managing to wound once. I then fail my psychic test to activate the force weapon and his warboss pounds the Grandmaster into the ground.
Force weapons then kill 4 nobs. The rest of his guys cannot fight because now there is no one in base with my paladins.
I then break the bikers, who are on the verge of running off the table.
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Orks 4
Orks would fail morale and run off the table.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 1000, Orks: 290
Crushing Victory by the Paladinstar Grey Knights!!!
Yep. This game turned out pretty much how I had expected. And that was with my paladins not really even getting a chance to shoot and letting the bikers charge them. This is definitely a rock-paper-scissors matchup. Paladins will just own nob bikers unless dice is extreme.
Game #6 - 1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau vs Seer Council Deldar
For the seer council battles, I played against my friend and local Deldar expert, Grant (aka SonsofGrant here on dakka). His seer council is much feared in our area. So far I have played against them 4 times and I can honestly say that I hate Eldar, I hate Rues of Warding and I hate the seer council.
This is not going to be an easy game for Tau. Due to the mobility of deldar, the Tau are only going to get 1 chance to shoot and Overwatch before the deldar are on them in assault. Though Invisibility is negligable, deldar has 2 vicious powers in Misfortune and Prescience. Moreover, the fact that Tau has so many models in the unit means that warlock destructors, especially when combined with Misfortune, can potentially do a lot of damage through sheer volume (plus the fact that they bypass gun drone saves).
However, it is still winnable for them. If they can manage to survive assault, a feat entirely possible with Stubborn LD 10, 1 suit to soak up wounds with his 2+ save and Hit-&-Run, then they should be able to shoot the eldar again and again. It then becomes a question of who has more resiliency - Fortuned eldar against Tau shooting or Stubborn Tau against deldar assault (with no power weapons). Who has the better volume-of-attacks and who has the most durability will win out in this battle of attrition. Although it will probably be close, I will give Tau the benefit of the doubt in what will probably be at best a minor victory.
I played Tau in this game and I wasn't really sure how to deploy against Deldar. I really can't hide from them so I figured I'd just deploy up as close as possible so I'd have more space to retreat. I also decided to deploy by the LOS-blocking ruins so that I can jump to the other side if necessary.
Crap....I'm not really sure what to do. I know I can't run away from them, not with their 12" move and Fleet. So I decide to do something very unconventional for Tau....I decide that I'm going to assault!
The suit with the Puretide Chip makes the entire unit Stubborn. I also twin-link my guns and opt to ignore cover.
I then move towards deldar, making sure to put my Iridium Armor suit up front to absorb their Overwatch.
Crap! My shooting is full of fail as I only manage to take out 2 warlocks (I believe one with destructor). Actually, my shooting was ok. It's just that his Fortuned saves were phenomenal.
I then charge. Overwatch kills 1 gun drone and puts 1W on my Iridium bodyguard.
Assault. I forget about Invisibility, which means I will be hitting on 5's. Actually, it didn't really matter since my WS2 bodyguards would be hitting his WS5 warlocks on 5's anyways.
Farsight issues a challenge. The Baron is too far away to accept so he declines. I then choose one of his farseers to sit on the sidelines for this battle.
Combat is actually alright as I put 2W on his other farseer and he kills 1 and a half bodyguards.
However, what I didn't expect was Precision Strikes. Grant uses Precision Strikes to take out my bodyguard with the Puretide chip to get rid of my Stubborness (on my next turn). This is also one of the 2 models with Hit & Run.
We then both Hit & Run out of combat (I H&R first, not that it would probably have mattered).
VP's - Deldar: 186, Tau: 213
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Deldar 2
Gulp! This turn is going to hurt as he casts Doom and Misfortune on me and Prescience and Fortune on himself. He would continue to cast these powers every turn. He repositions his warlocks with destructors.
Damn! His shooting is deadly as he uses Precision shots to take out Shadowsun. He also kills 1 normal suit and 4 gun drones and put 1W (from Look-Out-Sirs! by Shadowsun) on Farsight.
He then attempts to charge.
What my shooting failed to do, my Overwatch accomplishes. Even with only firing 1 plasma from each suit, I take out 4 Fortuned jetbikes!
He then makes the charge.
And wipes out everyone but Farsight and 1 of my special suits. I fail to do anything to him. Fortunately I am still stubborn (until the beginning of my next turn). Unfortunately, he uses Precision Strikes to take out my last Hit & Run bodyguard.
Wow. Deldar Precision Strikes/shots really screwed the Tau over. I did not anticipate how big a role it would play. Since every warlock is a character, that means he could allocate all to hit rolls of 6's for the entire unit. He then used that to snipe out all my important suits, first taking out the Puretide suit, then Shadowsun and finally the other Hit & Run suit. I was powerless to do anything against it. Because of Precision Strikes (and psychic powers like Misfortune), this turned out to be a worse matchup for Tau than I had thought. Perhaps the seer council is the hammer to the Tau scissors. It's definitely a tough matchup for shooty deathstars because they've got basically only 1 turn to shoot before the council is assaulting.
The current standings after the 6-game tournament are:
Tau 2-1 2423VP's
Deldar 2-1 2000VP's
Grey Knights 1-2 1970VP's
Daemons 1-2 1196VP's
As I said in the beginning, if 1st and 2nd place are tied in terms of Win-Loss, then they will have a "Sudden Death" game to determine the winner of the "Best Deathstar" tournament. So there will be a rematch between Deldar and Tau for the Championship.
I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
i use a 902 point farsun deathstar in my 1500pt list and this last weekend i faced a nob biker unit, it wasnt tooled out to the nines but I handily destroyed it. In one round of shooting i killed 4 nob bikers and wounded the warboss. You can check my batrep vs them here.
Haha, I am enjoying watching the poll fluctuate as we see how well tau has been doing. It was pretty low for a while but now most people seem to think they are going to take it. I really want to see the eldar list in action. I know they will be able to catch tau by turn two but will tau be able to kill enough units before this happens?
On another note, because this hasn't come up yet. If you use your vector thrusters to hit and run are you going to use the I2 of the suit or the I5 of farsight? The rules for hit and run say the UNIT takes the initiative test and the rules for characteristic tests state you use the highest characteristic unless noted. But one would think that the one with the vector thrust is the one who takes the test. I think this will be extremely important because eldar is going to catch tau but will most likely only kill the drones and a suit or two, if tau hits and run they can probably kill a ton of jet bikes with rapid fire plasma.
Just musing, who would win in a challenge farsight or farseer?
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
i use a 902 point farsun deathstar in my 1500pt list and this last weekend i faced a nob biker unit, it wasnt tooled out to the nines but I handily destroyed it. In one round of shooting i killed 4 nob bikers and wounded the warboss. You can check my batrep vs them here.
well 5 bikers and a boss are about 515 points kitted out vs 900 points of shooting. add another boss thats 660 points leaving room for 240 points of bikes (almost 5 bare bones ablative, could get 5 if drop a couple options from original 5)... Not to take away from your victory, just pointing out that it wasn't exactly a 1000 v 1000 of just these 2 units. in your example your opponent if having a real deathstar instead of a mini one, would of had 5 more nob bikers, an unwounded boss, and the boss you wounded... and if you dropped the painboy early in all of that, then whatever extra damage done by the loss of FNP would of been negated.
One of my early opponents in 6th (one of the friends who got me back into hobby torward end of 5th ed) was an eldar player, and we worked out how many nob bikers a turn 3 guided war walkers with scatter lasers could kill, then 6, and 9. It taught me the importance of either not running head on into that kind of shooting with only 6 bikes... but when you got 12.... vroom vroom. (edit not that i think running head on into that shooting is the best plan, I don't. just stressing the resiliency of 12 bikes vs 6)
gpfunk wrote: Pretty much played out how I thought it would. Maybe a bit better for the paladins. I'll just pray that the cowardly Tau get a piece of the greater good up their plasma gun when the slightly less cowardly Eldar come to play.
I think one of the factors that needs to be taken into consideration in the matchup between the 2 is terrain. Here, the terrain benefited Tau as it made it near impossible for paladins to attempt any type of assault. It also guaranteed 2+ cover for Tau because they could just jump around it and thus always get cover. If terrain wasn't a large impassable piece, paladins could have moved through it, thus forcing Tau away and maybe even taking away their cover. So terrain definitely plays a large part in these matchups and Tau definitely takes advantage of it best.
Hammernator wrote: Hmm, greater good my ass! Let's make something that can actually catch them:
=999
It's fast, durable, has some supportive shooting and has a charge that probably won't leave anything standing
(I threw in the teleport homer because you could drop the ICs and replace them with with dual CML Terminators)
It is a decent deathstar. The only problem is that, for the purposes of these "experimental" duels, you need to have someone on the table at the end of the turn or your army is tabled. Thus, since the Caestus is a flyer and needs to start in Reserves, you need to have someone deployed on the table. This means that you would have to break up your deathstar. That is probably the only issue I see with it. Otherwise, it will perform quite similarly to the Spartan Hamminator deathstar (2 characters + 8 TH/SS terminators in a Land Raider Spartan, but at least they can all start on the table).
Lt. Coldfire wrote: This is a cool idea. I look forward to the Deldar Council batrep
My predictions:
vs Paladinstar - lose.
vs Tau - lose.
vs Pinkstar - win.
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
Unless more people put in their requests, that's what it may come down to. I'm quite curious myself to see how they matchup. I think nob bikers will give them a good fight.
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
i use a 902 point farsun deathstar in my 1500pt list and this last weekend i faced a nob biker unit, it wasnt tooled out to the nines but I handily destroyed it. In one round of shooting i killed 4 nob bikers and wounded the warboss. You can check my batrep vs them here.
I don't think there is any comparison. A hardcore Farsight-bomb will beat the living snot out of a mini-nob biker list. However, you pit a fully tooled-up mega-biker squad and it's going to be a much closer matchup. If I was Tau, I'd be worried when I see 12 bikers come my way.
lambsandlions wrote: Haha, I am enjoying watching the poll fluctuate as we see how well tau has been doing. It was pretty low for a while but now most people seem to think they are going to take it. I really want to see the eldar list in action. I know they will be able to catch tau by turn two but will tau be able to kill enough units before this happens?
On another note, because this hasn't come up yet. If you use your vector thrusters to hit and run are you going to use the I2 of the suit or the I5 of farsight? The rules for hit and run say the UNIT takes the initiative test and the rules for characteristic tests state you use the highest characteristic unless noted. But one would think that the one with the vector thrust is the one who takes the test. I think this will be extremely important because eldar is going to catch tau but will most likely only kill the drones and a suit or two, if tau hits and run they can probably kill a ton of jet bikes with rapid fire plasma.
Just musing, who would win in a challenge farsight or farseer?
Well, Tau only needs to beat Deldar and then they've clinched the title. I believe it is a feat that is entirely possible, and I'd probably set the odds at 60/40 in favor of Tau.
Originally, I thought that it is tested on the model, but after going over the rules again, I think it is tested using the highest Initiative of the unit. Basically, the H&R USR says the unit takes the test. Then on p. 7, it says: "when a single test is required for the whole unit, use the highest relevant characteristic in the unit." Thus, they should be testing on Farsight's I5.
well 5 bikers and a boss are about 515 points kitted out vs 900 points of shooting. add another boss thats 660 points leaving room for 240 points of bikes (almost 5 bare bones ablative, could get 5 if drop a couple options from original 5)... Not to take away from your victory, just pointing out that it wasn't exactly a 1000 v 1000 of just these 2 units. in your example your opponent if having a real deathstar instead of a mini one, would of had 5 more nob bikers, an unwounded boss, and the boss you wounded... and if you dropped the painboy early in all of that, then whatever extra damage done by the loss of FNP would of been negated.
One of my early opponents in 6th (one of the friends who got me back into hobby torward end of 5th ed) was an eldar player, and we worked out how many nob bikers a turn 3 guided war walkers with scatter lasers could kill, then 6, and 9. It taught me the importance of either not running head on into that kind of shooting with only 6 bikes... but when you got 12.... vroom vroom. (edit not that i think running head on into that shooting is the best plan, I don't. just stressing the resiliency of 12 bikes vs 6)
I totally agree my comparision was not very good since it was not a death star, but i didnt claim it was either. He didnt have cybork bodies just 5 bikers with a painboy and the boss so all he got save wise was fnp against the super deadly stuff.
HIT AND RUN - i agree with JY2, i used hit and run in a fight this weekend vs necrons, and i used farsights init, until he split off then i was using shadowsuns and she failed....sigh.....
As far as a deathstar we haven't considered, this one might have some promise!
Highly mobile due to the ghostwalk mantle I can't name a unit in the game it wouldn't mulch in assault. Decent shooting with the 4 staves of light Majority T5 Lots of +2 armor to rely on 6 sets of MSS to contend with
Overlord 205 WS/MSS/SW/PS/RO Obyron 160 Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW/PS Cryptek 40 Eternity, Chronometron Cryptek 25 Basic Cryptek 25 Basic Cryptek 25 Basic Cryptek 25 Basic
jy2 wrote: I think one of the factors that needs to be taken into consideration in the matchup between the 2 is terrain. Here, the terrain benefited Tau as it made it near impossible for paladins to attempt any type of assault. It also guaranteed 2+ cover for Tau because they could just jump around it and thus always get cover. If terrain wasn't a large impassable piece, paladins could have moved through it, thus forcing Tau away and maybe even taking away their cover. So terrain definitely plays a large part in these matchups and Tau definitely takes advantage of it best.
Believe me, I did. Large, Impassible and blocks LOS? That's Tau heaven. It would've been a far more even playing field if there was only area terrain. Think you'll do another that doesn't heavily favor the Tau so much?
gpfunk wrote: It would've been a far more even playing field if there was only area terrain. Think you'll do another that doesn't heavily favor the Tau so much?
To be completely honest, I'd say if a table has only area terrain, then it wasn't set up very well. Add in the fact that the Tau deathstar can out-range everything else, they can just deploy (or move on turn 1) by any LOS blocking terrain...which there should be at least some on the table.
What I'm not seeing is the chance for Tau to win against the Deldar Council. 2++ re-rollable can theoretically weather the entirety of Tau's shooting (50/50 chance to kill just the Baron)...the one turn they'll have before getting caught in combat.
There's also the instant-win button of Hallucination, which one of the Farseers has a decent chance of getting. 2/3 chance to pin the unit or disallow shooting for the turn? With no psychic defense?
I'd put the Tau/Deldar Council at 70/30, in favor of the Eldar. If the Baron fails his 2++ rerollable early on, if Shadowsun manages to snipe out one of the Farseers (I believe she gets precision hits on a 5+), or some other extremely unlikely event happens (the Farseer fails to cast Fortune, or if the unit is somehow pinned by the Gun Drones, etc) then the Tau could win.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: They don't get a 2+ cover rerollable because the Tau bomb has Ignores Cover.
Yeah, but The Baron has a 2++ from his shadowfield. It's only a single model with a 2++, but it's still enough to absorb a lot of firepower. The nice thing that Tau have going for them is that all of the Crisis Suit weapons should insta-gib him at Toughness 3.
I also forgot to cast my vote for the bonus deathmatch. I think the Khorne Dog (Flesh Hound) deathstar could be good against the Tau. The Preferred Enemy (Orks) thing kind of pushes it over the edge against the Nob Bikers - just those few extra wounds can make the difference.
Yeah, but The Baron has a 2++ from his shadowfield. It's only a single model with a 2++, but it's still enough to absorb a lot of firepower. The nice thing that Tau have going for them is that all of the Crisis Suit weapons should insta-gib him at Toughness 3.
I also forgot to cast my vote for the bonus deathmatch. I think the Khorne Dog (Flesh Hound) deathstar could be good against the Tau. The Preferred Enemy (Orks) thing kind of pushes it over the edge against the Nob Bikers - just those few extra wounds can make the difference.
Sadly, it is really going to matter who goes first, like so many of these matches. Because you need a turn to activate your powers if you don't get that turn you are kinda boned. If tau goes first it is a 1 in 6 chance the clone field will fall which is not a lot and with the baron out of the way the rest of the unit won't fair too well.If Eldar goes first then the baron gets fortune and it is a 1 in 36 chance of failing the save, so the unit will take a lot more shots before anything starts getting hurt.
skyfi wrote: I'm very curious to the outcome of the Nob Bikers vs. Tau myself. Hope that one comes down the pipeline jy2. (also the GK vs nob bikers, with the force weapons for that matter)
soft spot for the greenskins..
cuz dey da best.
Agreed!
I may have to resurrect my biker lists.
DO IT!
iGuy91 wrote: As far as a deathstar we haven't considered, this one might have some promise!
Highly mobile due to the ghostwalk mantle
I can't name a unit in the game it wouldn't mulch in assault.
Decent shooting with the 4 staves of light
Majority T5
Lots of +2 armor to rely on
6 sets of MSS to contend with
Overlord 205 WS/MSS/SW/PS/RO Obyron 160
Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Lord 115 WS/MSS/SW Cryptek 40 Eternity, Chronometron
Cryptek 25 Basic
Cryptek 25 Basic
Cryptek 25 Basic
Cryptek 25 Basic
Comes out to 1080 points
My concern about your list is the lack of 3++ saves. With only 1 guy to tank incoming AP 1/2 shots, your list is going to be hurting against the Farsight-bomb and potentially the grey knights and their rending psycannons. And if you're tanking with your Overlord, you run the risk of losing your Res Orb should he go down.
BTW, you may want to double-check the cost of your Lords. It looks too expensive considering you don't have phase shifters on them.
What do you think of my version of the Necron Royal Court (or the one listed on p. 2 of this thread):
It's got 2 3++ models to tank incoming AP 1/2 shots. It's got 7 MSS guys and it can also teleport around thanks to the Veil of Darkness. I like the Destroyer Lord because he brings a little more mobility to the unit and can split off if necessary. Moreover, he gives the unit Prefered Enenmy. The 2 downsides to this list is that, just like your list, the Res Orb Overlord is at risk if he does the tanking for the unit. Also, the Veil-tek is vulnerable to Precision Shots.
I may actually give one of these versions of the Necron Royal Court a try in a Bonus Deathmatch.
jy2 wrote: I think one of the factors that needs to be taken into consideration in the matchup between the 2 is terrain. Here, the terrain benefited Tau as it made it near impossible for paladins to attempt any type of assault. It also guaranteed 2+ cover for Tau because they could just jump around it and thus always get cover. If terrain wasn't a large impassable piece, paladins could have moved through it, thus forcing Tau away and maybe even taking away their cover. So terrain definitely plays a large part in these matchups and Tau definitely takes advantage of it best.
Believe me, I did. Large, Impassible and blocks LOS? That's Tau heaven. It would've been a far more even playing field if there was only area terrain. Think you'll do another that doesn't heavily favor the Tau so much?
If I do, it wouldn't count it towards the tournament. Only the first match will be official.
But honestly, if the deathstar can't play through unfavorable terrain or other conditions (i.e. needs to go first, etc.), then it isn't a very good deathstar. All of these deathstars need to be able to function no matter what terrain or conditions they have to play under. That is a sign of a truly "balanced" deathstar. If they can't, then IMO they aren't a viable deathstar.
gpfunk wrote: It would've been a far more even playing field if there was only area terrain. Think you'll do another that doesn't heavily favor the Tau so much?
To be completely honest, I'd say if a table has only area terrain, then it wasn't set up very well. Add in the fact that the Tau deathstar can out-range everything else, they can just deploy (or move on turn 1) by any LOS blocking terrain...which there should be at least some on the table.
What I'm not seeing is the chance for Tau to win against the Deldar Council. 2++ re-rollable can theoretically weather the entirety of Tau's shooting (50/50 chance to kill just the Baron)...the one turn they'll have before getting caught in combat.
There's also the instant-win button of Hallucination, which one of the Farseers has a decent chance of getting. 2/3 chance to pin the unit or disallow shooting for the turn? With no psychic defense?
I'd put the Tau/Deldar Council at 70/30, in favor of the Eldar. If the Baron fails his 2++ rerollable early on, if Shadowsun manages to snipe out one of the Farseers (I believe she gets precision hits on a 5+), or some other extremely unlikely event happens (the Farseer fails to cast Fortune, or if the unit is somehow pinned by the Gun Drones, etc) then the Tau could win.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: They don't get a 2+ cover rerollable because the Tau bomb has Ignores Cover.
Right, Tau will ignore cover saves thanks to their Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite. However, re-rollable 3+ is still very good (against the missile pods and gun drones) and re-rollable 4++ (against plasma & fusions) is still respectable.
However, this is why I favor Tau slightly:
1. Baron won't be able to tank incoming shots because he will be in the rear. He is too slow compared to the bikers. They can turbo-boost 36" while the Baron will be all the way in the back, thus forcing them to conga-line.
2. It's not easy to beat Tau in assault now. They will be stubborn due to the Puretide Engram Chip. They have Hit & Run because of vectored retro-thrusters and they've got a guy with 2+ (Iridium Armor) that can absorb eldar attacks.
Basically, they will get out of combat and can then shoot the space elves again. It'll be close but I think Tau can win this war of attrition.
Hallucination may play a big factor in this game if Eldar can get it.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: They don't get a 2+ cover rerollable because the Tau bomb has Ignores Cover.
Yeah, but The Baron has a 2++ from his shadowfield. It's only a single model with a 2++, but it's still enough to absorb a lot of firepower. The nice thing that Tau have going for them is that all of the Crisis Suit weapons should insta-gib him at Toughness 3.
I also forgot to cast my vote for the bonus deathmatch. I think the Khorne Dog (Flesh Hound) deathstar could be good against the Tau. The Preferred Enemy (Orks) thing kind of pushes it over the edge against the Nob Bikers - just those few extra wounds can make the difference.
I'm interested in seeing how the Khorne-dogs do as well. I will try to fit in a game with them as well.
Yeah, but The Baron has a 2++ from his shadowfield. It's only a single model with a 2++, but it's still enough to absorb a lot of firepower. The nice thing that Tau have going for them is that all of the Crisis Suit weapons should insta-gib him at Toughness 3.
I also forgot to cast my vote for the bonus deathmatch. I think the Khorne Dog (Flesh Hound) deathstar could be good against the Tau. The Preferred Enemy (Orks) thing kind of pushes it over the edge against the Nob Bikers - just those few extra wounds can make the difference.
Sadly, it is really going to matter who goes first, like so many of these matches. Because you need a turn to activate your powers if you don't get that turn you are kinda boned. If tau goes first it is a 1 in 6 chance the clone field will fall which is not a lot and with the baron out of the way the rest of the unit won't fair too well.If Eldar goes first then the baron gets fortune and it is a 1 in 36 chance of failing the save, so the unit will take a lot more shots before anything starts getting hurt.
I actually feel that these deathstars aren't as dependent on 1st turn as most people think. One of the good things about them IMO is that they are actually really balanced deathstars. They can easily survive an alpha strike from enemy units and still function on a high level in terms of output.
The reason why the Pinkstar lost so badly against Tau wasn't really because they went 2nd IMO. Rather, it was because of poor deployment on my part and some bad rolling.
The biggest issue with the tau farsight bomb is when they flee off the board. That is still the best way to defeat it and the route my ig would take everytime.
On reading the pinkstar results, I have to say that I think this is a bit misleading as a battle of deathstars.
Having more threats is a pretty big advantage, it's one of the main reasons that deathstars don't dominate games. So having the Lord of Change present an entirely different threat profile than the horrors is pretty significant.
As a side note, I also think it's somewhat telling that the battle of 6th ed deathstars seems to be all about shooting.
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
As much as I want them to be (because tyranids are one of my favorite armies), but sorry, but none of the tyranid "ground" deathstars are viable all for the same reason - their lack of mobility. Sure, they can do a lot of damage when they get into combat, but the problem is, most of them will be dead by the time they do get into combat (or at least reduced to a not-very-effective unit by the time they reach combat). And for a deathstar, just 12 TL-S6 shots isn't very shooty at all.
The truth is that none of the walking tyranid deathstars can compete against a true deathstar army. They have neither the mobility nor the shooting to make up for it.
bodazoka wrote: 5 x Necron Lords with mind shackle scarabs, Warscythes, Tesseract labyrinths, Res orbs, Semp weaves and phase shifters.....
850 Points.
2+, 3++ with RP of a 4+, Mind Shackle means you kill yourself and if you survive the Labyrinth's make you roll = or under your wounds or be removed.
Only problem being slow movement and zero firepower.
That's only 5 guys with 1W each for 850-pts!?!
Sorry, iGuy91 posted a much better Necron deathstar above (or see my own Necron Royal Court on p.2).
iGuy91 wrote: Oh....they all have phase Shifters in that list I think. Yeah, they paid for them, i forgot to write them down. My mistake
No worries. Dropping 2 phase shifters will make them more viable for this experiment, though I really can't see them beating a shooty deathstar like Tau or the Pinkstar.
Tomb King wrote: The biggest issue with the tau farsight bomb is when they flee off the board. That is still the best way to defeat it and the route my ig would take everytime.
Yeah, if you can get them to flee off the board, that would be the best way to beat them.
But keep in mind, these deathstar deathmatches isn't about a deathstar versus an entire army. Rather, it is deathstar vs deathstar (or deathstar with a little support). I think triple-manticores in an IGarmy will do a number to the Farsight-bomb. However, if you're talking about deathstar vs deathstar, that isn't quite as easy to do against a Stubborn LD10 unit, not when most deathstars can't out-shoot them or even catch them in combat.
Redbeard wrote: On reading the pinkstar results, I have to say that I think this is a bit misleading as a battle of deathstars.
Having more threats is a pretty big advantage, it's one of the main reasons that deathstars don't dominate games. So having the Lord of Change present an entirely different threat profile than the horrors is pretty significant.
As a side note, I also think it's somewhat telling that the battle of 6th ed deathstars seems to be all about shooting.
Yeah, it's actually deathstar vs deathstar with a little support (if the deathstar doesn't quite go up to 1K).
Also, one of the reasons why the Pinkstar can have more threats is through the use of the Portaglyph to generate more units. IMO, this is a huge advantage for deathstar units (or for any army) because it gives you free units and now multiple threats and targets. The downside is that they are also units worth VP's, but they can be used to great tactical advantage as this match demonstrated - use them block off the opponent and to absorb Overwatch as well as to absorb attacks in Assault.
Shooty is good, but these deathstars have more than just shooting. Perhaps they are the new breed of deathstars - a shooty deathstar that is also highly resilient. Tau is hard to kill because you can't catch them, they can survive combat and they are getting 2+ cover if played correctly. The Pinkstar? Re-rollable 2++'s. 'Nuff said.
Tank hunter, monster hunter, furious charge, stubborn 1 per turn
Stealth shrouded
Infiltrate
Interceptor
3d6 thruster move
And I'm pretty sure there some stuff I've missed and its all under 400 pts
I would classify this as a mini-star. They're actually probably better in normal games with a balanced list, but they can't match the ferocity or resiliency of a true deathstar.
Shooty is good, but these deathstars have more than just shooting. Perhaps they are the new breed of deathstars - a shooty deathstar that is also highly resilient. Tau is hard to kill because you can't catch them, they can survive combat and they are getting 2+ cover if played correctly. The Pinkstar? Re-rollable 2++'s. 'Nuff said.
How are they getting a rerollable 2++? I understand that as Tzeentch daemons they re-roll 1's, but how do they get from 5++ to 2++? The Grimoire is only +2, isn't it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead, I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
Coteaz - Prescience, Forewarning
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)
Why waste points on mastercrafting psycannons when you're getting prescience? Wouldn't these points be better spent towards a warding stave in the unit? Getting a 2++ model in the unit makes them so much more resilient against the big guys who make it to them. Why psykatrope grenades over rad grenades on the GM? When fighing other deathstars that you expect to field multi-wound models, surely reducing their toughness is pretty great, especially when you've also got 2 ways to get off hammerhand in the unit, giving you S6 vs potential T3s?
Forewarning gives the unit 4++. Grimoire brings it down to 2++. Then Tzeentch re-roll 1's, though the LoC also had Precognition, which let's him re-roll all saves, as well as the Greater Reward that let's him re-roll all Invuln's (talk about overkill...lol).
The Paladinstar was at 990-pts before the 2x Master-crafted upgrades. Grenades are 15-pts and the Stave is 20-pts. Couldn't fit either in the list and still be at 1000-pts or below. Personally for my lists, I don't like to go above points.
So either get MC just in case Prescience fails (i.e. Runes of Warding) or Coteaz dies or go with servo-skulls or digital weapons.
Well, that's one take on it. I think the Stave is well worth cutting something else for, possibly even the GM's psycannon. (It's so expensive on him, and an incinerator is a nice replacement there too).
Boom, see that is how the pinkstar rolls!, tonight I played them and managed to kill 2 nightscythes and 2 HP's off a doom scythe, should have really deployed them in the center off the board instead deployed them to the right in a ruin with plus one cover save (so GTG is a 2plus cover save rerolling 1's) I did have forewarning on and only failed the grimourie once
Redbeard wrote: Well, that's one take on it. I think the Stave is well worth cutting something else for, possibly even the GM's psycannon. (It's so expensive on him, and an incinerator is a nice replacement there too).
I prefer the extra shooting, but that's just me. However, I normally run a stave in m Draigowing list. There I can also fit in Coteaz for Prescience at 1750. However, at 1000, you need to cut some stuff in order to get it all working. My priority is to make the unit as shooty as possible (while keeping Coteaz). Everything else is secondary.
MarkyMark wrote: Boom, see that is how the pinkstar rolls!, tonight I played them and managed to kill 2 nightscythes and 2 HP's off a doom scythe, should have really deployed them in the center off the board instead deployed them to the right in a ruin with plus one cover save (so GTG is a 2plus cover save rerolling 1's) I did have forewarning on and only failed the grimourie once
Yeah, this is what the real Pinkstar can do. They will shoot the crap out of almost anything except re-rollable 2+'s. They are probably the best "pure" shooters of all the deathstars and have the greatest volume of twin-linked S6 shots from any 1 unit in the game today. And they are a huge force-multiplying unit, doling out Prescience and Forewarning to themselves and others and screwing with the enemy with Misfortune and Perfect Timing. With all their powers, they actually work best when teaming up with another unit (such as the LoC or another greater daemon/daemon prince) who will complement them them with some mobility and counter-assault capabilities.
When he's on, he's on. He is good enough to almost win a game all by himself, especially with the right powers and grimoire rolls. You think he was tough in this game? He actually got some crappy gifts. Imagine if he gets the extra +1W, It Will Not Die! and 4+ FNP on top of his re-rollable 2++!!!
However, he does need someone else in the army to use the Grimoire on him because he cannot use it on himself. That's why the Pinkstar and the LoC makes the perfect duo. They complement each other so well it's scary.
Played two Deathstar games tonight, in Ravenstar vs Paladinstar they rolled Draigo and Friends in three turns taking only three bike casualties total. Being T2 reaaaaaally hurts Paladins against rending Corvus Hammers.
In the second game Ravenstar rolled Lvl 3 DP (Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Life Leech, 2 Weapons from Rewards) and the Pinkstar ( 2x Forewarning, 2x Prescience, 2x Perfect Timing, 2x Full BS overwatch) in four turns, losing a single biker .(Made 4 consecutive DTW rolls on the one turn the Pinkstar could shoot.) 2++ re-rollable is strong, but Warp Storm and DI still hurt it.
+
Cannot deepstrike unless they arrive on Turn 1 (or leave 1 model deployed and hiding). Otherwise, they are tabled if they don't have a model on the board at the end of the game turn.
Can't afford apothecaries and librarians. Only had 1000-pts to work with. Coteaz is a much better bargain if points is a limitation. I decided to opt for more offense (shooting and psychic powers) than defense (apothecary). Grand Strategy from the Grandmaster is also nice, giving the paladins some extra movement and making their offense more effective (re-roll 1's or counter-attack).
Might be worth taking a cheap-o crap like a nekkid inq just to allow for a pallie deepstrike. I cant imagine them walking up to a tau plasmahorde that fired and jumps back all the time.
Ed:
Just read the tau-vs-gk outcome, told you, deepstrike or auto loose!
Try a more even set of terrain next time, the battles are supposed to be fair deathstar vs deathstar and not crippling disadvantage deathstar vs imbalanced advantage deathstar. This way we never get to see the true results of a deathstar vs deathstar.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Played two Deathstar games tonight, in Ravenstar vs Paladinstar they rolled Draigo and Friends in three turns taking only three bike casualties total. Being T2 reaaaaaally hurts Paladins against rending Corvus Hammers.
In the second game Ravenstar rolled Lvl 3 DP (Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Life Leech, 2 Weapons from Rewards) and the Pinkstar ( 2x Forewarning, 2x Prescience, 2x Perfect Timing, 2x Full BS overwatch) in four turns, losing a single biker .(Made 4 consecutive DTW rolls on the one turn the Pinkstar could shoot.) 2++ re-rollable is strong, but Warp Storm and DI still hurt it.
+
Now I definitely need to get in a test game against the Ravenstar.
There's actually a guy at my LGS who runs Ravenwing Bikers. Maybe I can set up a deathstar deathmatch with him running your Ravenstar versus one of the Deathstars here. Perhaps against the Farsight Bomb....
Azrael
Librarian, Lvl 2, Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex, rolling Divination or Telepathy
10x Ravenwing Black Knights
and
Allied Sevrin Loth for full access to Biomancy
Cannot deepstrike unless they arrive on Turn 1 (or leave 1 model deployed and hiding). Otherwise, they are tabled if they don't have a model on the board at the end of the game turn.
Can't afford apothecaries and librarians. Only had 1000-pts to work with. Coteaz is a much better bargain if points is a limitation. I decided to opt for more offense (shooting and psychic powers) than defense (apothecary). Grand Strategy from the Grandmaster is also nice, giving the paladins some extra movement and making their offense more effective (re-roll 1's or counter-attack).
Might be worth taking a cheap-o crap like a nekkid inq just to allow for a pallie deepstrike. I cant imagine them walking up to a tau plasmahorde that fired and jumps back all the time.
Ed:
Just read the tau-vs-gk outcome, told you, deepstrike or auto loose!
Try a more even set of terrain next time, the battles are supposed to be fair deathstar vs deathstar and not crippling disadvantage deathstar vs imbalanced advantage deathstar. This way we never get to see the true results of a deathstar vs deathstar.
That's an option, though in order to keep the deathstar intact, I'd probably drop the Master-crafted upgrades and Psykatroke grenades and just get 1 unit of 3-5 henchmen and hide them.
It'll be funny if both of those armies deepstrike. Tau leaves Shadowsun on the table and the GK's the henchmen. Then whoever comes in first will probably win as they table the guys on the table. LOL.
Terrain will never be fair, unfortunately. You use a LOS-blocking terrain and it will benefit the fast assault armies like the seer council. You use area terrain and it will benefit the shooty armies. So far, only Tau has the adaptability to handle both with flair due to their mobility. That is a sign of a truly good deathstar - they can adapt to the situation no matter what it is.
gpfunk wrote: So I guess the poor paladinstar is DOA? That's a real shame. They're an awesome little unit. Ah well, guess no one can complain that they're OP.
I shall run them without shame.
Though they lack mobility, they are one of the most balanced deathstars around. They can shoot and they can assault and they are tough to get rid of. No other deathstar is arguably as flexible as the paladinstar. They are one of the more well-rounded deathstars currently. They are also one of the most successful in tournament play. No need to hang your head low, lad. Walk proud and walk tall.
Solosam47 wrote: Go pink daemons! Loving the batreps. I think you guys should do more with all kinds of set ups.
I will and I will try to get more people to playtest these deathstars with me also.
Farsight Tau vs Nob biker Orks was supposed to be today, but I didn't get the models and I'm trying to minimize the proxies. However, I expect them to fight this coming Friday.
Of course, tomorrow is the big debut of the Seer Council Deldar against all 3 deathstars!
This is great stuff. Probably my favourite series of reports, keep it up!
Shame about the Paladins, in death star terms they are a jack of all trades and master of none it seems. I just wonder if they had Draigo for tanking and a stave how much of a difference it would have made.
djn wrote: This is great stuff. Probably my favourite series of reports, keep it up!
Shame about the Paladins, in death star terms they are a jack of all trades and master of none it seems. I just wonder if they had Draigo for tanking and a stave how much of a difference it would have made.
Thanks.
Not sure Draigo would have made a difference in my games so far. In Game #1 against Tau, I was rolling so poorly the Draigo probably would have died anyways (failed a lot of plasmas on 1's and 2's).
In Game #2 against Daemons, my poor rolling for the paladins combined with Misfortune would've probably meant that Draigo would have died quickly. I'm not so sure how much the warding stave would have helped in combat. In the combat with the Grandmaster, they LoC hit and wounded 5 times due to all his re-roll's. One of those saves that the GKGM took was a 1 (and that was before the re-roll due to Misfortune). If it had been the stave, he would have been insta-killed by the LoC's S8 Staff of Change. So whether it was Draigo or the GKGM, both would have probably lost the battles. However, without the shooting of the Grandmaster and Prescience from Coteaz, GK shooting against Tau would not have been nearly as effective as it was. GK's would have probably lost by an even bigger margin.
Terrain will never be fair, unfortunately. You use a LOS-blocking terrain and it will benefit the fast assault armies like the seer council. You use area terrain and it will benefit the shooty armies. So far, only Tau has the adaptability to handle both with flair due to their mobility. That is a sign of a truly good deathstar - they can adapt to the situation no matter what it is.
The thing is this:
Your idea of these star batreps I guess is to show what star is better at what etc.
This you can only achieve by making balanced and fair square offs.
Terrain, FOC, point limitation etc, none of these things should be unfairly balanced as they are in your batreps.
What I mean is that the point limit can be a hinderance to one star and a piece of cake to another, pallie star obviously suffers from a 1000p limit since the apot cannot be fitted in while aother star is perfectly fine with 800p.
It´s like playing a tournament with SM facing of with dark eldar at 500p, some armies asa whole never get to shine below certain point values while other do, thus we allow a point limitation that doesnt cripple anyone.
Same for the FOC.
Some start are non scoring and can only be so by taking often crappy HQ choices. This too is a bad thing if making a star vs star since it is assumed other things like troops are on the table else where, the entire thing is NOT to take the start out of the context but to have them simply square of against each others.
Same goes for the deepstrike issue, do DS with them regardless of the idiotic reserve rule because how else can you show of the death star if you limit it´s abilities it does pay points for after all. Assume other things are on the table that make the DS ok.
Terrain goes in here as well. Contrary to what you say terrain should (and often is) be balanced. Giving a shooty army super coversaves while the footslogging one has to walk through open ground is unbalanced, does not make for a fair battle and thus does not show the true power comparisons between the stars. It kind of reminds me of when I was completely new to 40k and this tau player always set up the table against me using hardly any terrain ever, needless to say the games were oh so balanced and according to them if taken out of context tau seemed to be the most op thing out there with miles to spare.
The average terrain is today a 5+ cover save piece and not a gigantic piece of solid LOS blocker that favors only one army and massacres the other.
No, the idea is very fun and I enjoy your reports and appreciate the effort you put into them but if I could change something I would look at all the stars, determine a point cap that allows all to shine fully without hindering any one, use fair terrain, dont hinder some with reserve rules or FOC limitations (assuming things are on the table already) and try to make it as balanced as possible showing the true power levels of the death stars vs another.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Played two Deathstar games tonight, in Ravenstar vs Paladinstar they rolled Draigo and Friends in three turns taking only three bike casualties total. Being T2 reaaaaaally hurts Paladins against rending Corvus Hammers.
In the second game Ravenstar rolled Lvl 3 DP (Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Life Leech, 2 Weapons from Rewards) and the Pinkstar ( 2x Forewarning, 2x Prescience, 2x Perfect Timing, 2x Full BS overwatch) in four turns, losing a single biker .(Made 4 consecutive DTW rolls on the one turn the Pinkstar could shoot.) 2++ re-rollable is strong, but Warp Storm and DI still hurt it.
+
After seeing the Farsight massacres it seems that Ravenwing may have a hard time closing the gap to assault. If I played Tau then I would just move to just inside 24" to unleash plasma at max range and sms and then jump back 3D6". They should be able to knock off 3-4 bikers each turn and shouldn't be able to be caught or rad grenaded unless the bikes turboboost. Turboboosting would mean the RW would have to forego a turn of shooting and likely have to weather at least one turn of rapid fire with no cover.
If you play that matchup then you might want to consider switching to telepathy to get Gate of Infinity and then pick up Biomancy powers with whatever additional powers Loth can get. The 24" move could close the gap and instantly put the bikers in range for rapid fire, rad grenades and psychic powers. I don't know of any specific special rules on how to place bike bases during a deep strike but it seems like it would be fairly easy to place the first one fairly far away 9-11" to reduce the probability of a bad scatter. and then use the long bike bases to close any resulting gap. Assuming you are using Azreal and Loth this overcomes their lack of mobility. Additionally, you may be able to get to a facing where there is no drone screen which means instant killing suits with plasma (and maybe bolters if you get them to T2 with enfeeble).
Assuming that you close the gap to <6" then there would be a good chance that you could shoot and assault whatevers left the following turn. Since a Deep Strike is involved there is some risk but I suspect it is minimal assuming the opponent has no blasts. I also assume that technically you haven't "moved" so you lose your cover save, but against the Farsight Bomb you aren't getting it anyway. Actually looking at the new FAQ if you scattered too far you could make a turbo boost move away instead of shooting to setup for another attempt the next turn.
"Q: Can Bikes / Jetbikes make a Turbo-Boost move, or vehicles move
Flat Out, on a turn that they arrive from Deep Strike? (p45)
A: Yes."
MarkyMark wrote: Azreal give his unit a 4plus invul though, so they dont have to relie on cover saves, really reduces the speed of the unit though
tch! I keep forgetting this! With all these new 40K books coming out one after another in 6th ed it's a real PITA keeping all the new rules and wargear straight.
Yeah a 4++ will definitely help vs the Puretide Council. (name stolen from a batrep i just read).
Terrain will never be fair, unfortunately. You use a LOS-blocking terrain and it will benefit the fast assault armies like the seer council. You use area terrain and it will benefit the shooty armies. So far, only Tau has the adaptability to handle both with flair due to their mobility. That is a sign of a truly good deathstar - they can adapt to the situation no matter what it is.
The thing is this:
Your idea of these star batreps I guess is to show what star is better at what etc.
This you can only achieve by making balanced and fair square offs.
Terrain, FOC, point limitation etc, none of these things should be unfairly balanced as they are in your batreps.
What I mean is that the point limit can be a hinderance to one star and a piece of cake to another, pallie star obviously suffers from a 1000p limit since the apot cannot be fitted in while aother star is perfectly fine with 800p.
It´s like playing a tournament with SM facing of with dark eldar at 500p, some armies asa whole never get to shine below certain point values while other do, thus we allow a point limitation that doesnt cripple anyone.
Same for the FOC.
Some start are non scoring and can only be so by taking often crappy HQ choices. This too is a bad thing if making a star vs star since it is assumed other things like troops are on the table else where, the entire thing is NOT to take the start out of the context but to have them simply square of against each others.
Same goes for the deepstrike issue, do DS with them regardless of the idiotic reserve rule because how else can you show of the death star if you limit it´s abilities it does pay points for after all. Assume other things are on the table that make the DS ok.
Terrain goes in here as well. Contrary to what you say terrain should (and often is) be balanced. Giving a shooty army super coversaves while the footslogging one has to walk through open ground is unbalanced, does not make for a fair battle and thus does not show the true power comparisons between the stars. It kind of reminds me of when I was completely new to 40k and this tau player always set up the table against me using hardly any terrain ever, needless to say the games were oh so balanced and according to them if taken out of context tau seemed to be the most op thing out there with miles to spare.
The average terrain is today a 5+ cover save piece and not a gigantic piece of solid LOS blocker that favors only one army and massacres the other.
No, the idea is very fun and I enjoy your reports and appreciate the effort you put into them but if I could change something I would look at all the stars, determine a point cap that allows all to shine fully without hindering any one, use fair terrain, dont hinder some with reserve rules or FOC limitations (assuming things are on the table already) and try to make it as balanced as possible showing the true power levels of the death stars vs another.
Unfortunately for these experimental battles, there is an artificial ceiling for all the deathstars so that they don't become too bloated. They're just going to have to "make do" with 1K whether that is their "natural" points value or whatnot. There is no deathstar that can't fit under 1K. Even Draigowing will "naturally" fit under 1K (Draigo + 10 tooled-out paladins = about 950 pts only). If the points limits was a problem, then they're just going to have to deal with it. Draigowing may run best at 2K, but if you bring it to a 1750 tournament, then you're just going to have to make some cuts to get it to fit. As for the smaller deathstars - the mini-stars - they are excluded for the purposes of these experiments because they just can't get up there in points. As with any tournament, there is a cap to where you can operate.
As for terrain, I will try to make it a little more balanced next time, but you will never get terrain which is totally fair. That is because each deathstar has a quality that will either overload any single phase or wargear/special rules that make terrain moot. Tau is the best example as they can adapt to any terrain you throw at them. No other deathstar really can, thus, Tau will always have an inherent advantage. However, fast assault armies also have the inherent advantage that they can get around any terrain if they really need to. You cannot hide nor avoid armies like the seer council, biker armies and flying monstrous creatures no matter the terrain. The only armies that have a real disadvantage with regards to terrain are the slow deathstars like Draiowing and the Pinkstar. However, they make up for that by having excellent shooting that basically extends their "reach" to be able to hurt enemy units. At the same time, without any LOS-blocking terrain to protect their opponents, it becomes a real shooting gallery that favors the more shooty deathstars.
BTW, cover can be mitigated here. Almost every deathstar on my list has a way to deal with cover. Tau removes cover with wargear. Draigowing and the Pinkstar can remove cover with psychic powers (i.e. Perfect Timing) and the seer council can just fly around it as well as temp weapons that ignore it.
And of course you can apply tactics such as deepstriking as long as you are aware of the risks. All of these armies may deepstrike if they really need to (except for the seer council, but they have the mobility to get to where ever they want anyways). They just need to leave at least 1 model on the table if they choose to do so.
In short, this is my opinion on a "balanced" deathstar. They need to be able to deal with whatever is thrown their way, whether it is a bad matchup (i.e. Pinkstar vs Runes of Warding Deldar), bad terrain (i.e. large LOS-blocking terrain in the middle for shooty deathstars or no terrain for assault deathstars against shooty ones) or bad circumstances (i.e. Pinkstar going 2nd against Tau shooting, Grimoire failing to go off). They need to be able to weather such adverse conditions and still be able to function and more importantly, they need to use tactics to mitigate these circumstances. If not, then they are not a viable deathstar. Simple as that.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Played two Deathstar games tonight, in Ravenstar vs Paladinstar they rolled Draigo and Friends in three turns taking only three bike casualties total. Being T2 reaaaaaally hurts Paladins against rending Corvus Hammers.
In the second game Ravenstar rolled Lvl 3 DP (Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Life Leech, 2 Weapons from Rewards) and the Pinkstar ( 2x Forewarning, 2x Prescience, 2x Perfect Timing, 2x Full BS overwatch) in four turns, losing a single biker .(Made 4 consecutive DTW rolls on the one turn the Pinkstar could shoot.) 2++ re-rollable is strong, but Warp Storm and DI still hurt it.
+
After seeing the Farsight massacres it seems that Ravenwing may have a hard time closing the gap to assault. If I played Tau then I would just move to just inside 24" to unleash plasma at max range and sms and then jump back 3D6". They should be able to knock off 3-4 bikers each turn and shouldn't be able to be caught or rad grenaded unless the bikes turboboost. Turboboosting would mean the RW would have to forego a turn of shooting and likely have to weather at least one turn of rapid fire with no cover.
If you play that matchup then you might want to consider switching to telepathy to get Gate of Infinity and then pick up Biomancy powers with whatever additional powers Loth can get. The 24" move could close the gap and instantly put the bikers in range for rapid fire, rad grenades and psychic powers. I don't know of any specific special rules on how to place bike bases during a deep strike but it seems like it would be fairly easy to place the first one fairly far away 9-11" to reduce the probability of a bad scatter. and then use the long bike bases to close any resulting gap. Assuming you are using Azreal and Loth this overcomes their lack of mobility. Additionally, you may be able to get to a facing where there is no drone screen which means instant killing suits with plasma (and maybe bolters if you get them to T2 with enfeeble).
Assuming that you close the gap to <6" then there would be a good chance that you could shoot and assault whatevers left the following turn. Since a Deep Strike is involved there is some risk but I suspect it is minimal assuming the opponent has no blasts. I also assume that technically you haven't "moved" so you lose your cover save, but against the Farsight Bomb you aren't getting it anyway. Actually looking at the new FAQ if you scattered too far you could make a turbo boost move away instead of shooting to setup for another attempt the next turn.
"Q: Can Bikes / Jetbikes make a Turbo-Boost move, or vehicles move
Flat Out, on a turn that they arrive from Deep Strike? (p45)
A: Yes."
I actually had a game last night between a proxied Ravenwing Deathstar (Asmodai's list) and the Farsight bomb. In that game, Tau was actually the under-dog! Why? Because the Dark Angel librarian got Perfect Timing! Perfect Timing + Rad Grenade Launchers + Plasmas = no cover saves and instant death for Tau. That was actually a really bad matchup for Tau as Ravenwing went first. With Scout, basically they can move 24" before Tau can even do anything!
Anyways, that was an exciting game and the battle report will be out later (probably when the tournament is completed).
tetrisphreak wrote: Bikes would suffer from the Farsight Bomb because of the Multi Spectrum Sensor Suite -- all of the shooting attacks ignore cover.
MarkyMark wrote: Azreal give his unit a 4plus invul though, so they dont have to relie on cover saves, really reduces the speed of the unit though
Also, if you're running Sevrin Loth in the army, he can give the entire unit Endurance. So that's 3+ save, 4++ invuln's and 5+ FNP on a T5 unit!
Even Draigowing will "naturally" fit under 1K (Draigo + 10 tooled-out paladins = about 950 pts only).
No it does not.
1025p and they are not fully kitted even and without Coteaz for those extra powers.
As I said, some stars are actually hampered by this point limit while others are not. Migh be that currently draigo-wing is simply to expensive to be anything else then a fun gimmick.
Codex creep at its finest.
Looks like we have a different intepretation of a standard Draigowing list. Let's see. This is what I view as a standard Draigowing list (BTW, I don't view the Apothecary as standard. None of the competitive tournament Draigowing armies that I have seen run them. I also don't run him.).
Draigo
10x Paladins
4x Psycannons
1x Brotherhood Banner
1x Warding Stave
I agree with jy2's interpretation of standard, although of course, there's also the second HQ in all cases. I prefer a libby, some like coteaz, but either one pushes the value over 1k.
I'm not sure that the super-tooled up GM is an adequate fill-in for draigo though, draigo adds too much synergy, being EW with 3++. He's the guy you need to go toe-to-toe with the LoC in that matchup.
In almost all situations I've seen, there's also a reinforced-aegis dread tagging along, who helps out with stopping silly pink shooting too, but that's really exceeding the point limit...
The apot is missing. In an environment with tons of plasma shots I´d say the apot is pretty much a must have but yes, gw priced him far, far to high to be worth taking "generally".
Also if possible a libby is a far better choice for the pallies rather then draigo.
gpfunk wrote:So I guess the poor paladinstar is DOA? That's a real shame. They're an awesome little unit. Ah well, guess no one can complain that they're OP.
I shall run them without shame.
They're still very strong in Relic missions and used to be stronger with the old wound allocation rules, since you could take 10-12 wounds and not lose a single model.
I'm not sure what Coteaz brings to the table? My list would be GM, Psychotroke, Psycannon, Allied OM Inq, Psycannon and lvl 1 Prescience, and 10x Pal with 4 Psycannon and BB.
They're not the strongest of the Deathstars any more though.
After seeing the Farsight massacres it seems that Ravenwing may have a hard time closing the gap to assault. If I played Tau then I would just move to just inside 24" to unleash plasma at max range and sms and then jump back 3D6". They should be able to knock off 3-4 bikers each turn and shouldn't be able to be caught or rad grenaded unless the bikes turboboost. Turboboosting would mean the RW would have to forego a turn of shooting and likely have to weather at least one turn of rapid fire with no cover.
If you play that matchup then you might want to consider switching to telepathy to get Gate of Infinity and then pick up Biomancy powers with whatever additional powers Loth can get. The 24" move could close the gap and instantly put the bikers in range for rapid fire, rad grenades and psychic powers. I don't know of any specific special rules on how to place bike bases during a deep strike but it seems like it would be fairly easy to place the first one fairly far away 9-11" to reduce the probability of a bad scatter. and then use the long bike bases to close any resulting gap. Assuming you are using Azreal and Loth this overcomes their lack of mobility. Additionally, you may be able to get to a facing where there is no drone screen which means instant killing suits with plasma (and maybe bolters if you get them to T2 with enfeeble).
Assuming that you close the gap to <6" then there would be a good chance that you could shoot and assault whatevers left the following turn. Since a Deep Strike is involved there is some risk but I suspect it is minimal assuming the opponent has no blasts. I also assume that technically you haven't "moved" so you lose your cover save, but against the Farsight Bomb you aren't getting it anyway. Actually looking at the new FAQ if you scattered too far you could make a turbo boost move away instead of shooting to setup for another attempt the next turn.
"Q: Can Bikes / Jetbikes make a Turbo-Boost move, or vehicles move
Flat Out, on a turn that they arrive from Deep Strike? (p45)
A: Yes."
This is a great idea actually! Didn't consider it. You could even place Loth in front with this method to tank all the plasma with 2++. and still be in range to unleash your Perfect Timing/ Rad Grendade/ I-1 Blind/ Rapid Fire Plasma, and Objuration Mechanicum/Vortex of Doom is quite good against the Tau. Losing Enfeeble isn't that bad against Tau, but losing Endurance might be huge though. I was planning to combine it to force a -2T Haemorrage test on the Farsight Bomb (Focused Witchfire means you can pick out that pesky Command systems suit)....
MarkyMark wrote:Azreal give his unit a 4plus invul though, so they dont have to relie on cover saves, really reduces the speed of the unit though
Nah, having Infantry doesn't really affect the speed of the unit at all, I tried it out last night. The bikes still can move 12" and turbo boost 12", and since they are so big it's not difficult to keep in coherency. Azrael and Sevrin Loth can even shoot while the bikes boost. Against Pinkstar, the Daemons had one turn of shooting. (boosted from 24" away).
I actually had a game last night between a proxied Ravenwing Deathstar (Asmodai's list) and the Farsight bomb. In that game, Tau was actually the under-dog! Why? Because the Dark Angel librarian got Perfect Timing! Perfect Timing + Rad Grenade Launchers + Plasmas = no cover saves and instant death for Tau. That was actually a really bad matchup for Tau as Ravenwing went first. With Scout, basically they can move 24" before Tau can even do anything!
Anyways, that was an exciting game and the battle report will be out later (probably when the tournament is completed).
Also, if you're running Sevrin Loth in the army, he can give the entire unit Endurance. So that's 3+ save, 4++ invuln's and 5+ FNP on a T5 unit!
Looking forward to it! I forgot to bring the camera to record my Deathstar games sadly. I just realise the Farsight bomb is completely reliant on cover saves, as they don't have any Invulns on their suits.
The Scout move has won me so many games by catching opponents completely off guard. If I was playing Tau I'd deploy well at the back to limit the Ravenwing threat range on turn one. (which, granted, is still enormous).
Endurance is huge for RW as the FNP and It Will Not Die on 3 characters (one with 4 wounds) is very strong, also considering the other units don't have Toughness reduction tech other than Enfeeble. Relentless also allows Azrael to rapid fire his Blinding combi-plasma and still assault.
If I'd grade the Ravenstar it would be
Mobility: A-
Not quite as fast as the Seer Council, but still extremely mobile with 12" scout and 24" turboboost range. Also all bike models ignore terrain and dangerous terrain tests with Skilled Rider.
Shooting: A-
Second shootiest Deathstar after the Farsight bomb, but with more tricks. Rad Grenades reduce Toughness by 1, and Stasis can reduce your Initiative by one for I2-3 Blind tests.
Can put out up to 18 twin-linked Plasma shots, with Blind. Can get ignores cover from Diviniation. Can get Null Zone from Sevrin Loth.
Assault: A+
Probably the strongest assault Deathstar in the list, possibly even stronger than the Bloodcrushers. Blind/ Invisibility means most enemies will be fighting them at WS1, and at -1 WS -1 Initiative. Azrael taking the Furious Charge trait means the Black Knights put out 40 Str 6 Rending attacks with 7-10 Str 4 Hammer of Wrath; Azrael puts out 6 Str 7 ap 3 I5 attacks, Loth puts out 6-9 Str 5-9 Ap 2 attacks with Warp Speed and Iron Arm, and Librarian puts out 4 Str 7 Ap 3 Blind attacks on the charge. Lib can get Prescience for re-rolls. Most importantly, Hit and run at I5 means they can disengage, shoot, and charge you again.
Defense: B+
Hugely dependent on cover saves, especially rolling Invisibility for a 2+ cover save. Otherwise, 3+ with 4++ at T5 and 5+ Feel No Pain. Azrael can tank in front with a 2+, 4++ and Sevrin Loth can also tank with a 2++.
No easy access to rerolls. Probably second most squishy Deathstar after the Palstar.
Psychic: A-
Sevrin allows access to all the powers of a single discipline, or Rulebook SM powers, so the element of chance is much reduced. May pick and choose powers to suit situation: Endurance, Enfeeble and Haemorrage during the shooting turns, Warp Speed, Iron Arm and 2++ during assault, or GoI for mobility. ML3 for 5+/4+ DTW.
The only problem with the Ravenstar is that I would never field it in a normal game, because MSU Black Knights is far more effective and nobody plays with Deathstars in my meta anyway.
Also nobody has mentioned what seems to be an ork counter to the tau deathstars cover.. Flashgits!
10 flash gits with every single upgrade, painboy, badruk etc = 595 points.. something like 20 BS2 ignore cover shots with D6-1 Ap and D6+1 Str or some shennanigans.. 27 wounds with both bosses, 31 counting the hull points of wagon. AV14/12/10 with 19" max move per turn... Could very well just end up without a ride, stuck in terrain, out of range and being gunned down.. but IF they got close enough to let off a round of shooting or 2, may make a dent in tau/eldar deathstars
add on ghazgull brings it to 820, then a wagon (riggers, ram, 2 shootas. armor plates might be req'd too.) to 930~
a stock megaboss with BP/cybork is 115 points. Each of the shootier/blasta/mo dakka upgrades are 40 points each (50 if painboy and badrukk have to pay for them too.. which I didn't include costs of)...
megabosses kill ability to run, and overwatch but if you think you're going to get charged on gits, suppose could break both ghazgul and megaboss out of group... (and use them to absorb overwatch for gits if need be)
As above, the rule is written for only bikers in the unit, it doesnt mention non biker models in the unit, RAW it plays like Christopher says it does, only problem would be if he wanted to run loth and azreal as the unit can only move the d6 inches.
This is a great idea actually! Didn't consider it. You could even place Loth in front with this method to tank all the plasma with 2++. and still be in range to unleash your Perfect Timing/ Rad Grendade/ I-1 Blind/ Rapid Fire Plasma, and Objuration Mechanicum/Vortex of Doom is quite good against the Tau. Losing Enfeeble isn't that bad against Tau, but losing Endurance might be huge though. I was planning to combine it to force a -2T Haemorrage test on the Farsight Bomb (Focused Witchfire means you can pick out that pesky Command systems suit)....
I would only recommend going for GoI against the Tau since there is no way you will get your cover saves. At least for other psychic deathstars they have to get the right psychic power and successfully cast it. Focused witchfire might help but you still have to roll that 5 and under on the psychic test to pick that crisis suit out... not exactly reliable but worth a shot.
Bonus Deathmatch #5 - Ravenstar Dark Angels vs Farsight Bomb Tau
1000 Dark Angels Ravenwing Bikers
Because I don't own a Ravenwing army (don't own any of the models) and I really wanted to try out this army, I used a Count-as Khorne army to represent the Dark Angels.
Top row (from left to right) - Librarian on bike (Karanak), Sevrin Loth (Herald of Khorne), Azrael (Skulltaker)
Bottom row - Ravenwing bikers (Flesh hounds)
Azrael
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex - Perfect Timing, Prescience Sevrin Loth - All Biomancy Powers (Forge World character)
10x Ravenwing Black Knights - 2x Rad Grenade Launchers
1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau
I made a slight change to this list, swapping out 1 of the Target Locks for a Drone Controller.
If anything, I'd say Tau is the underdog in this game. That is because Perfect Timing removes the one advantage that they have against Ravenwing....their 2+ cover. Now they have no saves against the ravenstar's plasma talons. To make matters worse, Rad grenade launchers from the bikers or Enfeeble from Loth will make those plasmas insta-kills against the Tau suits. Thus, you've got shots that insta-kill from the Ravenstar and which you get no save against (except for Farsight and Shadowsun). Wait, that's not all. The Ravenstar are going first and with their Scout move, they can effectively move 24". There really isn't anywhere to hide. Thus, I am going to take a huge risk for Tau this game. I am going to do something very unconventional, at least for these series of games....I am going to deepstrike Farsight's unit (who I will make the Warlord)!
The Scout move has won me so many games by catching opponents completely off guard. If I was playing Tau I'd deploy well at the back to limit the Ravenwing threat range on turn one. (which, granted, is still enormous).
Endurance is huge for RW as the FNP and It Will Not Die on 3 characters (one with 4 wounds) is very strong, also considering the other units don't have Toughness reduction tech other than Enfeeble. Relentless also allows Azrael to rapid fire his Blinding combi-plasma and still assault.
If I'd grade the Ravenstar it would be
Mobility: A-
Not quite as fast as the Seer Council, but still extremely mobile with 12" scout and 24" turboboost range. Also all bike models ignore terrain and dangerous terrain tests with Skilled Rider.
Shooting: A-
Second shootiest Deathstar after the Farsight bomb, but with more tricks. Rad Grenades reduce Toughness by 1, and Stasis can reduce your Initiative by one for I2-3 Blind tests.
Can put out up to 18 twin-linked Plasma shots, with Blind. Can get ignores cover from Diviniation. Can get Null Zone from Sevrin Loth.
Assault: A+
Probably the strongest assault Deathstar in the list, possibly even stronger than the Bloodcrushers. Blind/ Invisibility means most enemies will be fighting them at WS1, and at -1 WS -1 Initiative. Azrael taking the Furious Charge trait means the Black Knights put out 40 Str 6 Rending attacks with 7-10 Str 4 Hammer of Wrath; Azrael puts out 6 Str 7 ap 3 I5 attacks, Loth puts out 6-9 Str 5-9 Ap 2 attacks with Warp Speed and Iron Arm, and Librarian puts out 4 Str 7 Ap 3 Blind attacks on the charge. Lib can get Prescience for re-rolls. Most importantly, Hit and run at I5 means they can disengage, shoot, and charge you again.
Defense: B+
Hugely dependent on cover saves, especially rolling Invisibility for a 2+ cover save. Otherwise, 3+ with 4++ at T5 and 5+ Feel No Pain. Azrael can tank in front with a 2+, 4++ and Sevrin Loth can also tank with a 2++.
No easy access to rerolls. Probably second most squishy Deathstar after the Palstar.
Psychic: A-
Sevrin allows access to all the powers of a single discipline, or Rulebook SM powers, so the element of chance is much reduced. May pick and choose powers to suit situation: Endurance, Enfeeble and Haemorrage during the shooting turns, Warp Speed, Iron Arm and 2++ during assault, or GoI for mobility. ML3 for 5+/4+ DTW.
The only problem with the Ravenstar is that I would never field it in a normal game, because MSU Black Knights is far more effective and nobody plays with Deathstars in my meta anyway.
I deploy Shadowsun by herself only. Farsight and friends will be deepstriking.
This is a very risky tactic. If Farsight doesn't come in on Turn 2, Tau will most likely get tabled. Oh well, you know what they say....no pain, no gain.
Overview of our deployment.
Dark Angels then scout forwards 12" (6" for the guys on foot).
Ravenstar advances. Loth casts Iron Arm on himself (T7 currently) and Endurance on the unit. He fails to cast 2++ Invuln on himself but it won't really matter this turn.
Bikers then turbo-boost another 12".
There will be no place to hide.
Tau 1
Shadowsun comes out to play. She fires both her fusion guns at the bikers but they make their 4++ thanks to Azrael.
Shadowsun then jumps away. I make a little mistake here as I roll 3D6" for her assault jump. However, since she isn't the Warlord in this game, her jump move should only be 2D6" like normal. In any case, it wouldn't really matter. She won't make it past next turn.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Dark Angels 2
Angels cast their psychic powers and go after Shadowsun.
She never really stood a chance.
VP's - Ravenstar: 135, Tau: 0
Tau 2
Fortunately for me, Farsight comes in. What can I say? I like to live on the edge, take a ride on the wild side, yadda yadda yadda....
The trick is to stay out of LOS of his psykers so they can't cast their nasty powers on me.
Even with Endurance on, I blow away all the bikers that my suits/drones could see, which is 6 plasma bikers.
Now I jump away. Fortunately for me, he's only got 2 plasma talons left and he's going to have to go through a bunch of gun drones before he starts insta-killing my suits.
VP's - Ravenstar: 135, Tau: 252
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Dark Angels 3
Bikers advance after casting their psychic powers.
1 Rad Launcher reduces Tau toughness to 3 and shooting kills off 7 drones.
Bikers are now about 8-9" away. Can they make it into assault? If they lose even 1 guy to Overwatch, you are looking at an 11-12" charge!
Fortunately for the angels, Tau fails to kill even 1 guy with Overwatch, thanks to 2 passed FNP saves from Endurance! Bikers make it into combat.
Farsight challenges the librarian, who accepts. They both whiff against each other.
Bikers then kill 4 drones and in return, the suits kill 2 bikers.
Crap! I am not Stubborn this turn! The fate of the Tau hinges on this Morale test on LD 8. Fail and they will probably get run down. Pass and they can Hit & Run out of combat and finish off the Angels with shooting.
Fortunately for Tau, they pass Morale.
However, I then roll a for my Hit & Stay! Doh!!!
VP's - Ravenstar: 267, Tau: 336
Tau 3
The Angels pile-in. This turn, the Tau become Stubborn.
Librarian and Farsight whiff against each other once again.
Azrael and Loth kill 1 normal suit and put 1W on the 2+ bodyguard (with Iridium Armor). The Tau kills the last 2 bikers.
VP's - Ravenstar: 380, Tau: 420
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Dark Angels 4
Only the characters remain for Dark Angels. This turn, Loth becomes S5/T5. He also casts Endurance on the unit.
Disaster for Tau! They manage to take off 1W from Azrael. Librarian, on the other hand, force weapons Farsight to death. The other characters kill another 2 suits, including the Neuroweb bodyguard.
Now with Farsight gone, I am taking my Hit & Run initiative tests on I2 from the suits. The Tau fail to get away, though they do manage to pass morale.
That 1 failed Hit & Run attempt really killed Tau's chances for a victory in this game. Had they made it out of combat, their chances of winning was high. Fail and they are going to lose to force weapons. My risky deepstrike for Tau paid off. However, DA caught a couple of big breaks in this game. The first was to make it into combat and not lose 1 single guy to Tau's Overwatch. The second was when Tau failed to get out of combat.
Overall, if the Ravenstar can get the right powers (i.e. Perfect Timing), then they can overwhelm the Tau. However, fail to get the right power and IMO they are looking at a truly uphill battle. The Farsight Bomb has the potential to cripple the Ravenstar with just 1 turn of shooting.
Warlord Trait: Enemy uses lowest LD within 12" of Warlord
Grand Strategy: Scout
1000 Pinkstar Daemons
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (3+, Hellfire Gaze), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Forewarning, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - ?, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Precognition, Misfortune, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire
In their first matchup, daemons convincingly trounced the knights by blocking their path and then assaulting them with the Lord of Change. Can they do it again? I feel that the paladinstar will be the underdog in this matchup. If the Grimoire goes off, it's going to be bad news for the knights. If not, then the knights have a decent chance of taking down the daemons. So that is a 2/3 chance that things will bad for the knights and a 1/3 chance that it will go well for them.
Daemons cast their psychic powers including Forewarning on the LoC. However, Grimoire fails on the LoC. They also cast Misfortune on the grey knights, who promptly Deny both times.
Horrors move slightly. LoC hides behind terrain this turn and bides his time.
Herald drops off the Portaglyph. It fails to produce any troops this turn.
I don't believe the Warp Storm does anything of note.
The Portaglyph Herald fails to cast Flickering Fire and Perils.
Shooting does only 2W on damage on 2 separate models. Paladins deny shooting from the horrors.
I believe they fail their Warpflame test but fail to take any damage (or perhaps one of the wounds was from the Warpflame....don't quite remember).
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 55, Grey Knights: 75
Grey Knights 1
Coteaz casts both psychic powers. The knights then advance.
However, instead of shooting the horrors, they opt to assault the Portaglyph instead.
They don't want a repeat of last game, when they ignored the Portaglyph and was blocked off by the spawned troops.
They blow up the Portaglyph. The Grandmaster takes 1W in the explosion.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 55, Grey Knights: 75
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 2
This turn, the Portaglyph Herald dies while trying to cast Prescience. The Grimoire Herald successfully casts Forewarning on the unit but takes 1W to Perils in the process.
However, daemons do manage to cast Misfortune on the paladins and the Grimoire goes off on the horrors for re-rollable 2++ shenanigans.
Horrors move back as far as possible.
The LoC swoops on top of impassable terrain. BTW, he has Precognition on.
Shooting is devastating this turn as everyone manages to cast Flickering Fire successfully (paladins failed to Deny a single one). The LoC insta-gibs 1 paladin with his Hellfire Gaze and Flickering Fire from all kill another 3 paladins.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 268, Grey Knights: 225
Grey Knights 2
Paladins continue to advance.
It would be fruitless to shoot at the horrors with re-rollable 2++'s so they fire at the LoC instead. They put 2W on him.
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 3
Prescience on the horrors. Everything else on the LoC, including the Grimoire and Forewarning. Paladins get Misfortuned.
The LoC goes on the offensive.
Daemons fire everything at the grey knights.
Paladin saves are horrible! I've never seen so many failed 2+ saves in my life (courtesy of Misfortune)!
There is no need for assault as the paladinstar gets tabled from shooting!
That was just horrible rolling for the paladins. Of course Misfortune played a part in it, but still, maybe the paladinstar does need an Apothecary. I'm not sure what else they could have done in this game. Even had they not died to daemon shooting, they probably would have been wiped out by the LoC in assault. I think daemons are proving to be quite a tough matchup for the paladins. Then again, I honestly feel that the Pinkstar (along with the LoC) is one of the toughest deathstars in the game today, with their only weakness being Runes of Warding eldar.....but we all know that's not going to last for too long.
Tomb King issued a challenge between a wraithguard Tau/Eldar deathstar combo against Draigowing. Since there are a lot of readers interested in this deathstar, I decided to set up a battle with them.
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
Coteaz - Precognition, Prescience
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)
This is actually a bad matchup for the Grey Knights. The power they needed in this game is either Misfortune, Perfect Timing or Forewarning. They got none of them, which means paladin shooting is basically neutered by re-rollable 2+ cover from the Wraith Bomb. On the other hand, taudar shooting is extremely deadly to an elite deathstar like the grey knights, who have poor invuln's and no cover from their shooting (Draigo would have probably been much better against this type of army). I doubt the knights will seriously hurt taudar with their shooting. Their best chance is to assault taudar, though they just may have to weather 2 turns of shooting plus Overwatch in order to do so....and then taudar can still get out of combat with Hit & Run.
Note: I played this game such that the Tau characters can benefit from Guide since this is actually still an eldar unit (the wraithguards). If I am wrong, please let the readers know why this is so (or isn't so) and consider this a houserule then. Thanks.
Overview of our deployment. GK's deploy right on their deployment line. Taudar makes sure to deploy 30"+ from the knights (just outside their shooting range).
No psychic powers cast. Grey knights move up and then run, making sure to stay more than 18" away from the wraithguards (but within their own shooting range).
Taudar 1
Taudar casts Fortune and Guide and then move up.
Dual plasmas from the Tau Commander finish off 1 paladin, who fails both of his Invuln's.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 0, Taudar: 55
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 2
Coteaz Perils and fails to cast Prescience.
The knights shuffle around, making sure to stay more than 18" from the wraiths.
Shooting fails to do anything. The knights cause about 15 wounds but taudar makes all their re-rollable 2+ cover saves.
Taudar 2
Wraithstar advance yet again after casting all their psychic powers.
Only Shadowsun's fusions and the Commander's plasmas are in range. They insta-kill another paladin and put 1W on a hammerdin.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 0, Taudar: 138
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 3
This time, Prescience goes off. The paladins back up some more.
Their shooting once again is ineffective (almost 20 wounds) as Taudar makes every single 2+ save thanks to Fortune.
Taudar 3
Eldrad actually Perils while casting one of his psychic powers. It does go off but Eldrad would fail his Ghosthelm save.
Taudar advance. What irony. The shooty deathstar advances while the assaulty deathstar retreats.
The 2 Tau characters shoot down another 2 paladins!!!
This is getting ridiculous. Paladins are losing this war of attrition BIG time. The entire paladinstar can do nothing to the wraithstar over 2 turns of shooting. Meanwhile, just 2 characters from the wraithstar shooting has already killed 4 paladins!
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 0, Taudar: 220
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 4
Grey Knights have finally had enough. Coteaz successfully casts Prescience once again and the knights finally advance.
The the 3rd straight turn, the knights fail to shoot down a single taudar.
Grey knights then declare a charge. Taudar shoots down the banner paladin with Overwatch. They now need to make an 8" charge....
....which, fortunately for the knights, they manage to do.
Coteaz and paladins manage to successfully cast Hammerhand whereas the Grandmaster fails and Perils.
No challenges.
Paladins actually roll poorly on their saves and lose 2 guys. However, they would kill 7 wraithguards and both of Shadowsun's shield drones (due to Look-Out-Sirs!).
Now that's what I am talking about.
However, taudar would Hit-&-Run out of combat.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 285, Taudar: 403
Taudar 4
Eldrad would Perils a 2nd time (1W remaining) but manages to cast all 3 powers successfully, including Doom on the grey knights.
The Tau characters would split up from the eldar. Divide and conquer.
Shooting kills everyone. Only the Grandmaster is left.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 285, Taudar: 765
Turn 5
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 5
Last chance for a comeback. The Grandmaster goes after Eldar.
His shooting would fail to do anything.
He then charges and manages to survive Eldar Overwatch. The spiritseer issues a challenge to minimize the damage. Eldar has got this game in the bag as long as they don't get wiped out.
The Grandmaster wins that challenge.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 316, Taudar: 765
Taudar 5
Taudar movement.
Eldrad issues a challenge again to try to minimize the damage, but the Grandmaster strikes him down even with Fortune on.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 526, Taudar: 765
I then roll to see if the game continues and it does not. Holy cats!!! First time one of these matches didn't end in a tabling!!!
I can't believe that after 3 turns of shooting, the paladins could not even get a single kill! For the grey knights, I held off on assaulting initially because I wanted to see just how resilient the wraithstar was. That's just how crazy and broken re-rollable 2+'s are. You just can't beat them with shooting unless you can get powers like Misfortune or Perfect Timing. From decimating seer councils with just 1 turn of shooting (twice!) to doing jack against the wraith bomb with 3 turns of shooting....that's just crazy!
As I suspected, if the paladins can engage the wraithstar, then they can do some major damage. Paladins were fortunate to be to make it into combat and to avoid the wraithguard shooting. Just the 2 tau characters alone was able to take out 4 paladins. Imagine what the entire unit could have done had they all been able to shoot.
Despite the Wraith Bomb dominating the paladins this game, I still don't see them as a viable deathstar. They actually match up well against the grey knights but I just don't see them as having what it takes to take on the other 3 deathstars - the Pinkstar, the Farsight Bomb and the Seer Council.
MarkyMark wrote: As above, the rule is written for only bikers in the unit, it doesnt mention non biker models in the unit, RAW it plays like Christopher says it does, only problem would be if he wanted to run loth and azreal as the unit can only move the d6 inches.
ok.....but then what is the point of turbo boosting 6"? you arent getting any cover saves vs the farsight deathstar......
furthermore moving 6" a turn will never get you into combat with the farsight bomb.
MarkyMark wrote: As above, the rule is written for only bikers in the unit, it doesnt mention non biker models in the unit, RAW it plays like Christopher says it does, only problem would be if he wanted to run loth and azreal as the unit can only move the d6 inches.
ok.....but then what is the point of turbo boosting 6"? you arent getting any cover saves vs the farsight deathstar......
furthermore moving 6" a turn will never get you into combat with the farsight bomb.
you don't run the infantry, they stay put in shooting phase and bikes turbo boost but the back ones lag behind to keep the infantry in coherency.
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
As much as I want them to be (because tyranids are one of my favorite armies), but sorry, but none of the tyranid "ground" deathstars are viable all for the same reason - their lack of mobility. Sure, they can do a lot of damage when they get into combat, but the problem is, most of them will be dead by the time they do get into combat (or at least reduced to a not-very-effective unit by the time they reach combat). And for a deathstar, just 12 TL-S6 shots isn't very shooty at all.
The truth is that none of the walking tyranid deathstars can compete against a true deathstar army. They have neither the mobility nor the shooting to make up for it.
Thanks jy2 I totally missed it. It's is such a great thread, sometimes to get to the reports I skip some of te comments...I think you're right I guess I was just grasping at straws.
Tyranids are definitely a synergistic army and can't rely on a single unit to pull all the weight. Thanks for the response!
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
As much as I want them to be (because tyranids are one of my favorite armies), but sorry, but none of the tyranid "ground" deathstars are viable all for the same reason - their lack of mobility. Sure, they can do a lot of damage when they get into combat, but the problem is, most of them will be dead by the time they do get into combat (or at least reduced to a not-very-effective unit by the time they reach combat). And for a deathstar, just 12 TL-S6 shots isn't very shooty at all.
The truth is that none of the walking tyranid deathstars can compete against a true deathstar army. They have neither the mobility nor the shooting to make up for it.
Thanks jy2 I totally missed it. It's is such a great thread, sometimes to get to the reports I skip some of te comments...I think you're right I guess I was just grasping at straws.
Tyranids are definitely a synergistic army and can't rely on a single unit to pull all the weight. Thanks for the response!
Of course, if it were an "Arena of Death" style Deathstar tournament, where each unit begins in CC, no one has the charge advantage, etc., the Swarmlord, TG + Prime unit is one of the best.
I have always liked a 3 pack of Carnifexes with TL devourers, with a pair of Primes armed with deathspitters, whips and swords. Give everything adrenal glands and toxin sacs, and LOS to your heart's content. Points should be in the 800 to 850 range, a little more if bioplasma is taken.
What's that, 36 tl s6 shots, 6 s5 bs4 shots, two instant death ignores armour high initiative cc weapons, 3 I10 s9 HOW hits, and 15 S10 (on the charge) ap2 low initiative hits.
I think it'd be pretty effective, but rerollable saves might still beat it. It's quite the beatstick, if a bit slow.
Man! What a day. I got 4 games in all in 1 single day! Yes, you read that right....4 games in 1 day!!!
Here's a preview of the battle reports coming up:
Game #4 - Seer Council Deldar vs Paladinstar Grey Knights
First game of the day was the Seer Council versus the 0-2 Paladins. The paladins lost to both the Pinkstar daemons and Farsight Tau. Can they prevent a shut-out in what may be the greatest upset in the tournament?
Game #5 - Seer Council Deldar vs Pinkstar Daemon
Then it was the Seer Council against the 1-1 Tzeentch daemons. Daemons did well, losing to Tau and beating the grey knights, but have they hit their kryptonite in the Seer Council? Just Runes of Warding alone is enough to seriously screw with the daemon army.
Game #6 - Seer Council Deldar vs Farsight Tau
Finally, we have the game clincher for the 2-0 Tau. This game would decide whether Tau wins it all or not, after beating both the grey knights and daemons. Can the Seer Council stop them in their tracks? Is this a bad matchup for Tau? We shall see.....
Finally, we have....
Game #7 - Mystery Bonus Match
So what other deathstar did we play today? Was it a rematch or was it an entirely new deathstar. Find out in a couple of days.
Loving all the battle reports, but i feel the original draigo list was better as you need the tank in the front to survive and also draigo may have stood a chance vs the LOC.
This would be my take on the draigo deathstar as its main weakness is ap2 spam like plasma and also you still get the prescience, also the warding staves thrown in for more survivability.
First: Let me say, great games so far, been interesting to see them play out.
Second: A few questions though on your methodology.
1. You keep pointing out that instead of DeathStars, some people are bringing up Army lists, which I agree. But in your GK vs PinkStar, you didn't really run the PinkStar as a Star. If it was a DS, wouldn't the LOC have to be IN the DS, otherwise you're running a mini-army by not having it as part of the Star. Just trying to parse what we effectively consider a DS, and what's not.
2. While this is a great thread, and you are producing great matchups, you're really only providing one-offs for us (the readers), and not really showing which DS is better. It would be much more boring, but I think to show which DS is statistically the best, you'd have to approximate average rolls (3.5 for 1d6[being a 3 or 4 on a rotating basis], a 7 for 2d6, 10.5 for 3d6, etc.). You're really incorporating the luck factor into these matchups, which you've pointed out multiple times to likely determining the winner. Also, I think knowledge of using the DS and generalship are also in play here, and thus not giving a true measure of the actual DS.
I'm just asking, as I see so many people throwing so many hats into the ring, and want to know where the majority stands. Thanks! Great stuff as always JY2.
Salacious Greed wrote: First: Let me say, great games so far, been interesting to see them play out.
Second: A few questions though on your methodology.
1. You keep pointing out that instead of DeathStars, some people are bringing up Army lists, which I agree. But in your GK vs PinkStar, you didn't really run the PinkStar as a Star. If it was a DS, wouldn't the LOC have to be IN the DS, otherwise you're running a mini-army by not having it as part of the Star. Just trying to parse what we effectively consider a DS, and what's not.
2. While this is a great thread, and you are producing great matchups, you're really only providing one-offs for us (the readers), and not really showing which DS is better. It would be much more boring, but I think to show which DS is statistically the best, you'd have to approximate average rolls (3.5 for 1d6[being a 3 or 4 on a rotating basis], a 7 for 2d6, 10.5 for 3d6, etc.). You're really incorporating the luck factor into these matchups, which you've pointed out multiple times to likely determining the winner. Also, I think knowledge of using the DS and generalship are also in play here, and thus not giving a true measure of the actual DS.
I'm just asking, as I see so many people throwing so many hats into the ring, and want to know where the majority stands. Thanks! Great stuff as always JY2.
This idea was borne from using the pinkstar/horrorbomb. The LoC was added in to enable the use of more expensive deathstars.
2. Luck is a factor in all games, if you want to mathhammer averages in anyone can do that, it doesnt need a entry in bat reps (more tactics). There is no acutal measurement of a deathstar as you pointed out it is down to the general and to the opponent on how he counters any deathstar, that is a impossible to answer question and something that cannot be attained in a bat rep. This isnt (I think, excuse for me for putting words in your mouth Jy2) a test to see make each deathstar a paper rock scissors (i,e Tau ALWAYS beats paladins, Pinkstar Always beats palandins etc) it is a interesting read up on Jy2's tactics and experince of deathstars and other peoples.
Bat Reps really is not the place for math hammer as there are real life people rolling dice here.
Some math hammer would be cool, but I think jy2 already has his work cut out for him by playing all these games and writing up the battle reports. Asking for some math hammer on top of all that is a bit demanding.
That's where I stand
Salacious Greed wrote: First: Let me say, great games so far, been interesting to see them play out.
Second: A few questions though on your methodology.
1. You keep pointing out that instead of DeathStars, some people are bringing up Army lists, which I agree. But in your GK vs PinkStar, you didn't really run the PinkStar as a Star. If it was a DS, wouldn't the LOC have to be IN the DS, otherwise you're running a mini-army by not having it as part of the Star. Just trying to parse what we effectively consider a DS, and what's not.
2. While this is a great thread, and you are producing great matchups, you're really only providing one-offs for us (the readers), and not really showing which DS is better. It would be much more boring, but I think to show which DS is statistically the best, you'd have to approximate average rolls (3.5 for 1d6[being a 3 or 4 on a rotating basis], a 7 for 2d6, 10.5 for 3d6, etc.). You're really incorporating the luck factor into these matchups, which you've pointed out multiple times to likely determining the winner. Also, I think knowledge of using the DS and generalship are also in play here, and thus not giving a true measure of the actual DS.
I'm just asking, as I see so many people throwing so many hats into the ring, and want to know where the majority stands. Thanks! Great stuff as always JY2.
Those are some very good questions. Let me address them as best I can.
1. It's not a pure deathstar vs deathstar as there are discrepencies in points between them. Draigowing runs in at almost 1K, but many of the other deathstars run much less. Examples include the Pinkstar, the Dark Harliestar, Dark Eldar Beastmasters, etc. These deathstars are too big to be considered a mini-star (about 500-pts) but not big enough to be considered a true deathstar (1K). Thus, in order to make it as fair as possible, I allowed complementary units so that the units can get up to 1K. Otherwise, you bring in allegations that the matches aren't fair...."well, naturally the 700-pt pinkstar should lose to other deathstars, they're 300-pts less! It was never a fair battle. Etc." And it isn't an army list as it doesn't consist of a legal army composition (though it does have to obey legal FOC compositions). In a sense, you can kind of look at the LoC as a complementary unit to the Pinkstar in a way that the Land Raider Spartan is a complementary unit to the hamminator deathstar. They're both separate units.
2. It would be much more boring if this was just a mathhammer/theoryhammer thread. It would also be inaccurate as well. No amount of theoryhammer can let you know which deathstar is best. Because theoryhammer does not and cannot take into consideration tactics, terrain and all the random variables in a game. Just some of the stuff theoryhammer will not account for:
- Terrain.
- Tactics. How will the grey knights deal with the plasma-heavy Tau? How can Tau and the Pinkstar deal with the mobility of the Seer Council? How can you avoid some of the psychic powers such as Doom, Misfortune, Enfeeble, etc.? How would you play/deploy if you were going 2nd? Tactics is a huge portion of the game that theoryhammer will never be able to account for.
- What psychic powers or daemonic rewards you get. Without Forewarning, there will be no re-rollable 2++ for daemons. Powers such as Misfortune and Invisibility makes a huge difference in a game if the army can get it. So do gifts such as 4+ FNP, +1W or re-roll Invuln's. Then you've got Iron Arm from Biomancy. Or what about Hallucination on the paladins? All these powers and gifts really change the outcome of the game.
- Runes of Warding. You can't see on paper how RoW will affect psychic armies - how many models it will kill and more importantly, how it affects whether you use psychic powers or not.
- Movement. The Movement phases is one of the most important phases of the game....and yet it can't be accounted for on paper.
- Failed leaderships.
- Precision shots/strikes to target VIP models in a unit.
- The success/failure and impact of Hit & Run.
- Miscellaneous factors such as the Grimoire or the Warp Storm table. Or how if you roll snake-eyes for Daemonic Instability (it did happen!), the entire unit comes back from the dead (or dies if you roll box-cars).
Luck will always be a part of the game as this is a dice game. Yes, these games may be "one-offs". Then again, so is every person who has ever won a tournament before. So is every person who has ever played a game before. Luck is as much a part of this game as anything else.
Redbeard wrote: I agree with jy2's interpretation of standard, although of course, there's also the second HQ in all cases. I prefer a libby, some like coteaz, but either one pushes the value over 1k.
I'm not sure that the super-tooled up GM is an adequate fill-in for draigo though, draigo adds too much synergy, being EW with 3++. He's the guy you need to go toe-to-toe with the LoC in that matchup.
In almost all situations I've seen, there's also a reinforced-aegis dread tagging along, who helps out with stopping silly pink shooting too, but that's really exceeding the point limit...
Both Draigowing builds are good. Where they differ is who they are good against. Each Draigowing build matches up better to particular army builds. I just prefer the more shooty Draigowing buiild over the more rugged and durable one.
Yeah, most of these units will function much differently when they have the rest of the army to support them. That's why it is a whole different ballgame in an army-vs-army battle as opposed to deathstars in a vacuum. These battles are in no ways meant to show how good a deathstar "army" is. Rather, it is just a fun exercise to see how each deathstar can perform against each other independently of the rest of the army.
Pyriel- wrote: The apot is missing. In an environment with tons of plasma shots I´d say the apot is pretty much a must have but yes, gw priced him far, far to high to be worth taking "generally".
Also if possible a libby is a far better choice for the pallies rather then draigo.
Here's the reason why I (and I am assuming many of the good players) don't normally run the Apoc. And I will explain it in the context of a Draigowing army and not just the deathstar.
The way you normally beat a Draigowing army (actually, any deathstar army) is by going after the supporting units. You do this because it is just an inefficient use of resources to try to kill the deathstar itself (not that armies can't do it). As the Draigowing player, you want your opponent to focus on your deathstar because they can survive damage much, much better than the rest of the army. However, the harder you make it to kill them, the more you are discouraging them to go after your deathstar. I want you to shoot at my deathstar, but now if you have to go through 2+ models with 2W each and on top of that, 5+ FNP, most likely you will just go after easier prey. That is why I don't add Apothecaries of Grenade-caddy Techmarines to my GK units. Moreover, the more you put into your deathstar means the easier it is to kill the rest of the army. What you need are better supporting units in a Draigowing army, not a better deathstar.
And that is the reason why Apoc's aren't standard in a Draigowing army. While they make the deathstar better, they actually make the army worse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skyfi wrote: Less sensible responses to detractors, and more bat reps!
*cracks whip*
some of us are trying to get through the work day here... and its FRIDAY!!
Lol. Got to head out now, but will be back this afternoon to work on reports. Responding to some of the comments actually takes a lot of time BR-writing time. Lol.
And I promise you that you will see 2 battles out today.
That's what you are bound to get though, when so many of the deathstars rely on psychic powers to survive/inflict maximum damage. A lot more swing than there otherwise would be
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Well, Fortune is literally the only thing keeping the Seer Council useful/relevant.
Without it, they're terribad.
+1
As much as I hate it when people call out flukes.... this was a fluke. I don't think the Deldar Council has a great chance against draigowing, but it shouldn't be a one sided route like this. Coteaz getting off misfortune through warding and a 4+ DtW on top of a 5" assault move by the council is a very lopsided turn of dice. Like I said, I don't expect them to win this fight handily, but that wasn't even a fight.
As far as Tau go, I think if Deldar get in combat they have a very good chance of winning. Baron's I 7 (after enhance) vs Farsights I5 means Tau can't rely on H&R. One turn of lost shooting is going to hurt them bad. Against Pinkstar.....turbo boost around and let RoW kill the entire army. Assuming they don't just ignore it and murder the entire council in one turn of shooting
As to the other deathstars: who cares? Deldar or GTFO.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Well, Fortune is literally the only thing keeping the Seer Council useful/relevant.
Without it, they're terribad.
+1
As much as I hate it when people call out flukes.... this was a fluke. I don't think the Deldar Council has a great chance against draigowing, but it shouldn't be a one sided route like this. Coteaz getting off misfortune through warding and a 4+ DtW on top of a 5" assault move by the council is a very lopsided turn of dice. Like I said, I don't expect them to win this fight handily, but that wasn't even a fight.
As far as Tau go, I think if Deldar get in combat they have a very good chance of winning. Baron's I 7 (after enhance) vs Farsights I5 means Tau can't rely on H&R. One turn of lost shooting is going to hurt them bad. Against Pinkstar.....turbo boost around and let RoW kill the entire army. Assuming they don't just ignore it and murder the entire council in one turn of shooting
As to the other deathstars: who cares? Deldar or GTFO.
the barons iniative has nothing to do with hit and run, the test is based on their iniative, going to go double check....
tau should be able to get two turns of shooting before assault (one at max range and one at rapid fire) then they hit and run out and shoot em again!
@jy2- the problem with quantifying DS at an arbitrary number like 1000 pts and saying that cheaper DS need to pick up the slack really undermines what a true DS is. I mean think about it, if a DE beast pack or a pinkstar can be valid and deadly at under 700 points, then in some regards they are a more efficient and useful DS. By making an unnaturally high ceiling for some races you completely negate what makes some armies DS awesome.
Now that said, I just think that the efficiency factor needs to be raised but I don't think that you can mitigate it while having an true unbiased showdown. Either you set the cost to high for some races or too low for others. I just wanted to point this factor out.
I do think it would be nice to maybe in the post game thoughts or maybe bracketed int the reports (even later on when your done) to add in the statistical mean so players can see where luck skewed results.
Also good job with the write ups and thanks for the entertainment! My suggestions are only intended to improve your data!
Could try some abhuman fun:
Azreal, Ezekial, Yarrick, 10* Ogryns
Get Mind Worm and 2 rolls on Divination, hope for something useful & Prescience. Put Yarrick up front to re-roll successful wounds on majority T5. LOS to either the guys with 2+ or 4++ on the W3 ogryns.
Very slow and HQ heavy but should do something if they get into range.
Anyone interested to see which is the best deathstar? I'm going to set up (and probably play) a mini-tournament between 4 deathstars to see which one is the best deathstar. Yes, it is going to be deathstars in a vaccum without support from the rest of the army, but then again, shouldn't a true deathstar be able to work independently from the rest of the army?
same for the necron list with the flyers.
10x Ravenwing Black Knights
-head Loth last night. 
Or was it Ordnance?
(edit not that i think running head on into that shooting is the best plan, I don't. just stressing the resiliency of 12 bikes vs 6)
for my Hit & Stay! Doh!!! 
