inmygravenimage wrote: In terms of the plastics used, how do they respond to different types of primer?
Pretty much the same as any other HIPS model, I would expect.
I cleaned the sprues with warm soapy water and a quick scrub with a toothbrush. I always do this with plastics.
I used various Vallejo PU surface primers (black, grey, green) through an airbrush.
Pretty much standard behaviour; after an overnight drying/curing time (normally from about 5:30 pm to about 9:30am) they were pretty robust, taking gentle handling.
Once a few days have gone by (while painting the batch) it's work to scratch it off (on plastics), even from edges.
So, yeah, about what you can expect from any HIPS type material. Follow good working practice for the material and you'll have no issues.
I don't have a problem with the sprue design choices.
Hands attached to weapons is more important than hands attached to arms, in my opinion. Lego hands with weapons unattached look terrible; fitting hands to arms is easy, and works better for conversions.
The legs being unattached to the hips is more fiddly, but having worked with Mantic's hard plastic enforcers, I'm getting more used to this. Their legs are independent for the same practical casting reasons as the Karist's. The main thing is that you make it very obvious which legs are optimal for which torso/hips, so there's no confusion / frustration in matching them up.
I also wanted to mention that I appreciate the conservative approach taken to posing in this first batch. No one has a foot on a rock, which looks ridiculous when you have 6 guys standing on the same rock in multiple units. I also am glad to see no running poses, just because the limited number you'd be able make (say, 1 or 2 at most) would cause the same problem of making every runner look the same. I say leave that stuff to conversions.
As for women, I think you've made the right choice in waiting to do them right. Attempts to make multi-purpose male/female figures never turn out well. And thanks for avoiding the chainmail bikini garbage. Not everyone will agree, but that sort of thing is not why I'm into wargames, and I find it annoying.
From your talk of having improved since these first sprues were done, I take it you'll be launching with more than these, and are just holding some back for now?
I think I can get over the fiddlyness. So those sprues had 3 guys each huh? The photos of the two units both showed 5 dudes which seems odd if they're just from doubled 3-man sprues.
Wait, nevermind, I see the command bits. I guess you just chose to present the standard 5 model unit that we're all used to from... everything else
Huh, now that I look closer. The Epirians have a bunch of guns, nice Enough bits for 3 rifles, 2 rifles with underslung attachment, and two pistols. Their construction also looks a bit more traditional with the legs as one piece and hands on the arms already. I don't think they look too lego-handy either.
I think its an interesting design choice that the Karist troopers will have to have either a pistol/leader or special weapon for every 3 bodies rather than the option to field 3 grunts with basic rifle per sprue. Not a complaint, just interesting.
I don't think there are any second sprues, I think that's it for those units. That's a bit of a shame - just three poses, or two in the case of the Karist Tempests, is limiting. Less so for a small-scale skirmish game, though.
Actually the 5 man shot is more by accident than design; I'd done a few test pieces for various schemes (including the individually photographed Karist trooper) and sent those back, then did the other 5.
Both basic trooper sets (The Karist troopers and Epirian contractors) have sufficient parts and variety to build some really nice poses. The Karists are slightly more limited and fiddly due to the hands-on-weapon design, but given the slim wrists I can't really see another way of doing them and having them look good. Engineering of the sprues is good enough that they match up really nicely and don't leave much if any gap to fill; certainly nothing beyond a wee swipe of liquid putty.
Edit: With the Tempests, there are two weapons and two holding postures for each weapon, both of which fit on either of two body/leg components, then a separate head. Before any minor conversions that gives 24 possible variations if you vary the head direction (left / right / ahead). Enough for individuality I think, considering you're not likely to be using 24 heavy troops. Add in minor tweaks like putting them up on a bit of slate or something to change the angle of the model slightly and you're well away.
From your talk of having improved since these first sprues were done, I take it you'll be launching with more than these, and are just holding some back for now?
Oh, we're far from finished showing you things, don't you worry! Plenty more to look forward to over the next few weeks!
To hopefully forestall any additional gooftastic conversation on 'chaps':
Chaps (/ˈʃæps/ or /ˈtʃæps/) are sturdy coverings for the legs consisting of leggings and a belt. They are buckled on over trousers with the chaps' integrated belt, but unlike trousers they have no seat and are not joined at the crotch. They are designed to provide protection for the legs and are usually made of leather or a leather-like material. They are most commonly associated with the cowboy culture of the American west as a protective garment to be used when riding a horse through brushy terrain. In the modern world, they are worn for both practical work purposes and for exhibition or show use.
The contractors are looking good, especially since they're clearly Wargames Factory made. War games Factory knocked it out of the park with Dreamforge's stuff and proved that they can be first rate manufacturers with a good sculptor feeding them designs.
The sprue itself is kind of barebones as there's only really 5 heads, but the legs, arms, and torsos look good. No kit that I can see, but that's what bit boxes are for. Mine will be suitably kitted out with pouches and other items and lord knows I've got plenty of extra heads to spruce them up.
I'm amazed you went with a "half sprue" for a core unit though. Does this mean that there's a second half sprue with extra weapons, kit, and heads or something? You mentioned they had 4 different loadouts.
Also, my knowledge of the background is rudimentary at best, but if these guys are average factory joes being given weapons to defend themselves, can we see a melee weapon option to represent workers caught off guard at work with wrenches, saws, hammers, or other such tools? Seems like it would be fitting. I realize that its probably far too late in the design process to add this in now, but I can dream.
inmygravenimage wrote: In terms of the plastics used, how do they respond to different types of primer?
Pretty much the same as any other HIPS model, I would expect.
I cleaned the sprues with warm soapy water and a quick scrub with a toothbrush. I always do this with plastics.
I used various Vallejo PU surface primers (black, grey, green) through an airbrush.
Pretty much standard behaviour; after an overnight drying/curing time (normally from about 5:30 pm to about 9:30am) they were pretty robust, taking gentle handling.
Once a few days have gone by (while painting the batch) it's work to scratch it off (on plastics), even from edges.
So, yeah, about what you can expect from any HIPS type material. Follow good working practice for the material and you'll have no issues.
Thanks for this, very informative. I tend to use VJ paints myself; it's much as I would expect/hope but it's still good to hear.
monders wrote: I can understand people asking for certain things and suggesting others, but this has been in development for a few years now. Too late, amigos!
Just enjoy all the hard work that you didn't have to do and be glad you didn't have to keep something this big a secret for so long!
This is part of what makes me so excited about this project. MEdge was going to come out regardless of whether Kickstarter ever existed (since it started even before Kickstarter did!), so the game isn't hinging on some sort of Kickstarter success in April (kind of pulling the game together as it progresses, etc.), it's just using it to boost the game to an even higher level.
I feel there is a lot of potential here for a game that can have some solid ubiquity, fulfilling a niche that isn't well-covered and grabbing a large audience. And in the end, ubiquity is really what makes or breaks these sorts of games.
Alpharius wrote: Aren't "chaps with the ass covered" just...referred to as "pants"?
So aren't 'chaps' by default 'assless' and therefore just 'chaps'?
You're never going to move product with that attitude. Customers want a hook to catch their imaginations. It's important to remind them that your chaps are buttless, and let them ponder why.
monders wrote: I can understand people asking for certain things and suggesting others, but this has been in development for a few years now. Too late, amigos!
Just enjoy all the hard work that you didn't have to do and be glad you didn't have to keep something this big a secret for so long!
This is part of what makes me so excited about this project. MEdge was going to come out regardless of whether Kickstarter ever existed (since it started even before Kickstarter did!), so the game isn't hinging on some sort of Kickstarter success in April (kind of pulling the game together as it progresses, etc.), it's just using it to boost the game to an even higher level.
I feel there is a lot of potential here for a game that can have some solid ubiquity, fulfilling a niche that isn't well-covered and grabbing a large audience. And in the end, ubiquity is really what makes or breaks these sorts of games.
I think people commenting on options and poses need to keep in mind that this is stated to be a true skirmish-level game with a total of 20-30 models per side. If you only ever have 6 of the same model on the field, do you really need 20 different heads and 10 different arms? It'd be nice but we're not talking mass-battle, 40K size games so who needs it. Right now the options appear to be more than what Infinity or WM/H offer for a similar model count.
It is times like this I'm sad we dont have resin/metal capacity because a limited edition set of Epirian legs with chaps but no trousers under it seems to be something the market desires based on this thread
We love hearing all the suggestions people have for the game but sadly it is not ever going to be a community-led development effort. The timescales involved mean that any new models we action now are not going to be coming to market for at least 2 years, so adding a sprue here or a part there is not a decision that can be taken lightly or quickly. The number one priority for the game is to make it sustainable so that we can continue to build out the universe and that drives pretty much every decision in the end, so while we'd love to have made 20 leg variants on every sprue for instance, it simply would not have worked.
As winterdyne noted, our parts are not locked to each other, so any torso and arm combo can be used with any body (though some combinations look a bit odd without a few tweaks to the lean of the model), and coupled with head direction and weapon options, those sprues contain more than enough to ensure that you can buy three starter sets and assemble all the models in an individual manner.
I can verify that there are no second sprues for these models. Some of our tools are laid out with multiple sprues on them (as pretty much every company does) which explains the edge patterns, but we only have one sprue per unit at this time and will continue that policy for the foreseeable future because it delivers the most model choice for the best price to everyone.
Also, my knowledge of the background is rudimentary at best, but if these guys are average factory joes being given weapons to defend themselves, can we see a melee weapon option to represent workers caught off guard at work with wrenches, saws, hammers, or other such tools? Seems like it would be fitting. I realize that its probably far too late in the design process to add this in now, but I can dream.
The Contractors won't be caught off guard at work - these guys are already suited up and ready for battle. Best way to put it:
Epirian Foreman : "So MrMoustaffa, you want to get you and your family off world, don't you?"
MrMoustaffa : "That's the plan boss. This place isn't going to be around for much longer."
Epiran Foreman : "So how is that job at the mine treating you? Got your ticket on the evac ship bought?"
MrMoustaffa : "Uhh... Well..."
Epiran Foreman : "Tell ya what. I like you. Here's the deal - I'll give you a gun and a uniform, and three weeks basic training, and I double your pay. But when you get that call to report for duty, I'm sure you won't want desertion on your employee record... And you want to defend your family, right? Just sign on the dotted line.."
This may have already been covered, and I may have missed it in all the pages thusfar, so please excuse me if it's been asked, but is there a specific timeframe for detailing the other factions?
I did see one note saying at first you wanted to specifically cover the bases between these two major factions that will have the most to do with the original release, I just wanted to really know if there would be upcoming hints at the other factions really. Not because I'm not interested in these two either, I'm just really curious to see what sort of aliens will be around?
I was sorta sitting here painting and thinking about styles of creatures from various stories, games, universes and wondered whether aliens would follow generalized stereotypes like Elfish, techy, barbaric styles, or if we'd see anything mold breaking like super intelligent shades of the color blue. Oooh, maybe a race of dinosaurs that rose to prominence instead of the half baked mongrel humanoid mammalion types. Hail the dinosaur overlords! Race of sentient fish people? Dolphin dictators for the win. As per usual for me, I'm just throwing out gak ideas because my imagination wanders, but in any case, what will we see?
So yeah. Any probable timeline for hints, or can I expect a specific timeframe for alien/faction details to release? It won't stop me from putting up money on the factions shown so far or anything, but I'm certainly curious about the broader spectrum I can look forward to. Also, great job on the models guys, I actually think the leg and shoulder proportions are fine as I figure these sorts of standard working guys are essentially throwing on ill fitting coverall type uniforms, shoulder pads reminiscent of big ole football pads and wouldn't have as much access to straight up military grade uniforms and armor anyways.
Ooo, I just thought of something. What kind of weapons are we looking at in game? Are we seeing standard slug throwers, lazer or rail weaponry? Launchers, mortars, radio controlled flying bombs? Just curious what sort of technology we're fighting with? Gahhhh, I am so excited to see you guys doing this
agnosto wrote: I think people commenting on options and poses need to keep in mind that this is stated to be a true skirmish-level game with a total of 20-30 models per side. If you only ever have 6 of the same model on the field, do you really need 20 different heads and 10 different arms? It'd be nice but we're not talking mass-battle, 40K size games so who needs it. Right now the options appear to be more than what Infinity or WM/H offer for a similar model count.
Definitely, I mean WMH is in a similar size range, and they have monopose infantry with only 3/4 unique sculpts for each unit, so it's already better than that.
Phyrekzhogos wrote: This may have already been covered, and I may have missed it in all the pages thusfar, so please excuse me if it's been asked, but is there a specific timeframe for detailing the other factions?
I did see one note saying at first you wanted to specifically cover the bases between these two major factions that will have the most to do with the original release, I just wanted to really know if there would be upcoming hints at the other factions really. Not because I'm not interested in these two either, I'm just really curious to see what sort of aliens will be around?
I was sorta sitting here painting and thinking about styles of creatures from various stories, games, universes and wondered whether aliens would follow generalized stereotypes like Elfish, techy, barbaric styles, or if we'd see anything mold breaking like super intelligent shades of the color blue. Oooh, maybe a race of dinosaurs that rose to prominence instead of the half baked mongrel humanoid mammalion types. Hail the dinosaur overlords! Race of sentient fish people? Dolphin dictators for the win. As per usual for me, I'm just throwing out gak ideas because my imagination wanders, but in any case, what will we see?
So yeah. Any probable timeline for hints, or can I expect a specific timeframe for alien/faction details to release? It won't stop me from putting up money on the factions shown so far or anything, but I'm certainly curious about the broader spectrum I can look forward to. Also, great job on the models guys, I actually think the leg and shoulder proportions are fine as I figure these sorts of standard working guys are essentially throwing on ill fitting coverall type uniforms, shoulder pads reminiscent of big ole football pads and wouldn't have as much access to straight up military grade uniforms and armor anyways.
Ooo, I just thought of something. What kind of weapons are we looking at in game? Are we seeing standard slug throwers, lazer or rail weaponry? Launchers, mortars, radio controlled flying bombs? Just curious what sort of technology we're fighting with? Gahhhh, I am so excited to see you guys doing this
We will definitely not be rehashing other people's designs, as one of our key design goals is creating a unique universe and not just copying what's come before. We'll reveal details on the new factions in time, but we want to do justice to the models and stories we are releasing now first.
The Contractors are very much as you describe. These are not the elite soldiers of the Epirian Foundation. Contractors perform a lot of different jobs, not just fighting. They build and maintain the Epirian facilities, which includes constructing new robots, vehicles, buildings and spaceships, repairing existing infrastructure and manning key posts in the spaceports to deal with landing ships and loading and offloading cargo like cybel energy or mined metals for export. They also handle basic security, which is why they are trained for combat and given weapons, so that when an attack comes (as it often does by surprise on worlds near the Edge), they can defend an Epirian base. But yes, their armour is very much a byproduct of the work they do on a day to day basis, but they do have the support of more combat-focused units when the going gets tough
Each faction has its own type of weaponry - the Epirians focus on maglock weaponry, which is bullet based, as well as some weapons adapted from their terraforming and mining work. The Karist Enclave use more weapons based on cybel energy. Other factions, well, you'll just have to wait and see...
redcell wrote: Sorry if this question has already been asked. Are you releasing a starter pack with a small amount of both sides to get you started?
they've said there will indeed be a starter with (the) 2 factions in it
and on sprue design I think a limited number of heads is a smart move as they are one of the easiest things to pick up from other manufacturers if you want to customise things, and human faces are human faces, much better to use 'spare' space for stuff where design is much more tied to the setting like weapons/armour etc
redcell wrote: Sorry if this question has already been asked. Are you releasing a starter pack with a small amount of both sides to get you started?
From what legoburner has posted, that is the main initial release that will be shown off at Salute in under two weeks (and launched on Kickstarter very soon after). He's said that the Kickstarter sweet spot will be right around $110, but I don't think posted whether that was the starter box price (or if it's $100 and the extra is for anything else or shipping etc).
He or yakface also mentioned that it'd allow you to play something like 2/3 the size of a "standard" game, so a very viable game size (unlike a current 40k 2-faction starter compared to a normal game of 40k, for instance).
legoburner wrote: It is times like this I'm sad we dont have resin/metal capacity because a limited edition set of Epirian legs with chaps but no trousers under it seems to be something the market desires based on this thread
I wouldn't worry too much. Gates of Antares kickstarter posterboy 70's porn star fig has that niche (un)covered so to speak.
Really dislike the look of the contractors, it's the silly shoulder pads mostly. The other guys look fantastic though! I'll keep an eye on this as long as the rules are good.
agnosto wrote: I think people commenting on options and poses need to keep in mind that this is stated to be a true skirmish-level game with a total of 20-30 models per side. If you only ever have 6 of the same model on the field, do you really need 20 different heads and 10 different arms? It'd be nice but we're not talking mass-battle, 40K size games so who needs it. Right now the options appear to be more than what Infinity or WM/H offer for a similar model count.
Do you only buy minis in the minimum numbers needed to use them as directed by the manufacturer?
overtyrant wrote: Really dislike the look of the contractors, it's the silly shoulder pads mostly. The other guys look fantastic though! I'll keep an eye on this as long as the rules are good.
I have to agree the karist are nice, the contractors on the other hand look like catachans squeezed into real uniforms.
The sprues do look neat, enough variety for the models you need and pretty crisp detailing. The Karists in particular look awesome, helped by their more unique aesthetic, but the Contractors are plenty nice enough.
Are the three types shown the only sprues that will be the starter set, or will there be more? And on a similar note rules-wise, it's been mentioned that the loadout choices can dramatically change a unit's role, is this to the extent that you could have 3 setups of the same unit with different weapons and have them function completely differently, or is unit choice still more significant than weapon choice?
The final price is dependent on the initial volumes we hit with Kickstarter. Full on plastic development is incredibly expensive and time consuming, but delivers very good economies of scale once certain volumes are hit. We'll certainly be pricing competitively. A direct apples-for-apples comparison with other manufacturers does not really work as there are almost none who are operating at the level of detail we are, with our latest models utilising multiple slide core tooling and milling detail which is much crisper than the vast majority of other ranges.
Why not compare to the ones who do? I'm thinking Dreamforge, KD, wyrd, perry and GW. Are you claiming you are a level above these in terms of casting? or that you don't want to compare on price (understandable with Perry, worrying at the least with KD)
judgedoug wrote: Why are the Karist Tempests holding their guns so daintily and limp-wristed?
Spoiler:
is how you hold a weapon like that.
I cannot physically make this pose
without hurting my wrist.
And I hope their weapons have no recoil, otherwise their wrists will shatter after one shot.
I feel like that's nitpicking a bit much for the very first run on a new project. Besides, aren't these guys robotic? Or am I wrong on that score? I'm not actually sure yet since I haven't read the books at this point. But if they're robots, they can hold em any way they please.
Phyrekzhogos wrote: I feel like that's nitpicking a bit much for the very first run on a new project. Besides, aren't these guys robotic? Or am I wrong on that score? I'm not actually sure yet since I haven't read the books at this point. But if they're robots, they can hold em any way they please.
Nitpicking a near physical impossibility that is repeated on (I assume) every Karist Tempest? Hopefully those are preproduction prints and can be fixed.
They are religious zealots wearing armor, not robots.
Regardless, why would being a robot make that wrist pose okay?
and finally, what does being a new line have to do with a poor pose?
redcell wrote: Sorry if this question has already been asked. Are you releasing a starter pack with a small amount of both sides to get you started?
they've said there will indeed be a starter with (the) 2 factions in it
and on sprue design I think a limited number of heads is a smart move as they are one of the easiest things to pick up from other manufacturers if you want to customise things, and human faces are human faces, much better to use 'spare' space for stuff where design is much more tied to the setting like weapons/armour etc
(but it may be an assembly issue rather than a design one, as it looks like some sort of recoil free system
Oh, yeah, am looking at the sprues now. That sucks. It appears every weapon has the same wrist-in-line-with-gun, which, when combined with the arm, will make every model appear to have a broken wrist.
That's probably the least flattering angle of the model (and the least flattering of any of our models), but we wanted to show the reverse side of the gun and didnt want to hide anything from anyone. We also have a strong policy of not showing any conversions or patched up models pre-kickstarter as we feel that is an unethical misrepresentation of the end product, so have not hidden any aspects of the models when we present them.
The wrists on those models have about 2mm of positioning wriggle room, so there is plenty of scope to tweak it to your preferences based on the models as sold alone. Beyond that, the join is fully flat, so a simple slice with a knife will let you change the angle to your liking, and as the elbow is also a join, changing the angle to something completely different is a straightforward conversion if it bugs you that much.
As you can see, from every other angle the model has real presence:
I think I much prefer the red colour scheme but I'd really like to see some action shots of the figures with scenery. I know it sounds a bit weird but I really helps me visualise them better.
legoburner wrote: changing the angle to something completely different is a straightforward conversion if it bugs you that much.
It's not so much that I'm bugged by the sculpt, just bugged by the physical impossibility of a human being holding and firing a weapon with the wrist at that angle.
I think it's possible a fairly simple conversion can fix that wrist issue - as the models stand (without taking a knife to them other than to clean up the very few mould lines and seams) that's how they come out.
Legoburner's right in that that's probably the derpiest angle; the angles in quad view (and a model with the lower of the 2 grips) look a lot better. The weapon component is common between both, and that's partly where the odd wrist comes from I think.
When I get a chance I'll have a crack at moving the grip on the weapon forward, this will allow the arm to be straightened relative to the wrist, (bringing the forearm more in line with the weapon) which should look a lot more natural.
winterdyne wrote: I think it's possible a fairly simple conversion can fix that wrist issue - as the models stand (without taking a knife to them other than to clean up the very few mould lines and seams) that's how they come out.
If the producers of the miniatures are accepting of the fact that a conversion is required to the model to make it acceptable... but I can't get behind that. It's not that it's a "derpy" pose. Attempt it yourself, without undue wrist strain, and then continue for the duration of a battle. The M56 smart gun design is realistic in that aspect - as it is based on an MG42 (which could be fired from the hip, using the bipod as a stabilizer for the left hand)
It's not a problem with the angle, it's a problem with the sculpt. It is unfortunate that the production sprues have this design flaw.
Though I feel at this point everyone, including the designers, know the wrist is incorrect, but it is far too late to adjust the design or tools, as they have already been cut. So it is better to accept the flaw as part of the final product instead of continuing to highlight it.
legoburner wrote: changing the angle to something completely different is a straightforward conversion if it bugs you that much.
It's not so much that I'm bugged by the sculpt, just bugged by the physical impossibility of a human being holding and firing a weapon with the wrist at that angle.
I don't find the angle that disturbing. It is a bit limp-wristed, but it reminds me more of the way that someone would hold a power-tool (chainsaw, jaws-of-life) rather than a gun.
Fluff wise the gun he is holding is more of an energy weapon rather than a projectile weapon (I might be mistaken there, so the writers can correct me if I'm wrong) so maybe there is not really much of a recoil to worry about. Without any recoil I would expect the front hand to worry more about holding and leveling the weapon and less about having a stiff wrist to brace against the weapon.
d-usa wrote: I don't find the angle that disturbing. It is a bit limp-wristed, but it reminds me more of the way that someone would hold a power-tool (chainsaw, jaws-of-life) rather than a gun.
Fluff wise the gun he is holding is more of an energy weapon rather than a projectile weapon (I might be mistaken there, so the writers can correct me if I'm wrong) so maybe there is not really much of a recoil to worry about. Without any recoil I would expect the front hand to worry more about holding and leveling the weapon and less about having a stiff wrist to brace against the weapon.
Yeah, every weapon a Tempest currently carries fires an energy projectile. I have no idea (personally) whether it is supposed to be recoiless or not, but I'd see no reason why it wouldn't be.
legoburner wrote: changing the angle to something completely different is a straightforward conversion if it bugs you that much.
It's not so much that I'm bugged by the sculpt, just bugged by the physical impossibility of a human being holding and firing a weapon with the wrist at that angle.
I don't find the angle that disturbing. It is a bit limp-wristed, but it reminds me more of the way that someone would hold a power-tool (chainsaw, jaws-of-life) rather than a gun.
Fluff wise the gun he is holding is more of an energy weapon rather than a projectile weapon (I might be mistaken there, so the writers can correct me if I'm wrong) so maybe there is not really much of a recoil to worry about. Without any recoil I would expect the front hand to worry more about holding and leveling the weapon and less about having a stiff wrist to brace against the weapon.
Yes, you're right, both weapon variants are firing cybel energy pulses rather than bullets, so recoil isn't something that the shooter needs to worry about. The Coriolis Mortar in particular (the shorter weapon) is very much a precision weapon so would be aimed very differently to a machine gun, but I can appreciate that the wrist can sometimes look a little strained.
Recoil or no, they're not going to hit a barn door shooting like that. I assume that the hands are fixed to the weapon so I can see why it has happened when you're going for multi pose plastics but if you brought the trigger down lower you could have put the grip on the side and fixed it.
I hope that particular weapon is overcosted or ineffective so that I don't want to put them on anyone!
Davylove21 wrote: Recoil or no, they're not going to hit a barn door shooting like that. I assume that the hands are fixed to the weapon so I can see why it has happened when you're going for multi pose plastics but if you brought the trigger down lower you could have put the grip on the side and fixed it.
In theory you can change the feet stance slightly and the wrist would be that way as he is pulling or moving the weapon to rake or chain fire (providing it could be). I doubt they are particular aiming from the hip, more like the weapon has a pointer that corresponds with a targeter in the helmet to help them aim via HUD display.
Paradigm wrote: The sprues do look neat, enough variety for the models you need and pretty crisp detailing. The Karists in particular look awesome, helped by their more unique aesthetic, but the Contractors are plenty nice enough.
Are the three types shown the only sprues that will be the starter set, or will there be more? And on a similar note rules-wise, it's been mentioned that the loadout choices can dramatically change a unit's role, is this to the extent that you could have 3 setups of the same unit with different weapons and have them function completely differently, or is unit choice still more significant than weapon choice?
Keep in mind that exact weapon rules for units are still theoretically up in the air based on the heavy playtesting we'll be doing post-kickstarter.
However, with that said, of the three units you've seen so far (Epriain Contractor Egineers, Karist Troopers and Karist Tempests) when it comes to how their weapon options change the role of the unit:
• The Contractor Engineers weapon options are the least dynamic. It is essentially just choosing whether or not to take underslung grenade launchers on their assault rifles for more points. The grenade launchers give them a lot more versatility (as they can fire either EMP or choke grenades), but increase the cost of the unit.
• The Karist Troopers have a couple different 'special' weapon options, but you can only have 1 of these special weapons (in a standard Karist Trooper squad). There is a Cybel Grenade launcher, which is great for ignoring cover from distance, or instead you can take the Radwave Emitter (a short ranged radiation-based weapon), which is super short ranged (flame template style weapon). Taking the latter really puts the unit into the role of wanting to get close to the enemy and nuke them at close range.
The Radwave Emitter will do a ton more damage, but the thing about this game is that you can't just run up close and shoot an enemy unit unless they're suppressed (or you're coming at them from behind) or they'll generally defensive fire your unit to death. So taking the Radwave Emitter means that the unit can definitely come in and lay down a killing blow, but while you're trying to get that enemy unit suppressed and firing from a distance, the unit won't be putting out as much suppression (as the model with the Radwave Emitter is going to be out of range).
• The Tempest Elites weapon options have the biggest impact on how the unit plays of the three. You can have them equipped with the standard Ravager Pulse Cannons, and then have up to 1 model take a Coriolis Energy Launcher as a 'special' weapon in the unit. This is a pretty straightforward, if massively deadly, layout. But instead, you can give the entire unit Hellstorm Energy Launchers. This is the same wapon on the sprue as the Coriolis, but internally the gun is supposed to be rigged differently...when the unit all has Hellstorm launchers, think of the Wraith Tank from Halo, how it fires massive energy charges that arc high and come down smashing a wide area...that's what the Hellstorm does. It is incredibly, incredibly deadly, but when fired indirectly, the target has a chance to jump out of the way if they'd like...but doing so means you (the firing player) gets to move that enemy unit up to 3"...usually right out of cover. Naturally the Hellstorm option is a LOT more points.
The wrist is a definitely valid criticism, although I agree that I think it's more that particular photo angle - seeing these from above as they will be on the tabletop it will not be very noticeable. I didn't even notice it at all in-person, as lego had a few to show off at LAST AdeptiCon... that's how long all this has been cooking so I can't wait to see what he's had created since then!
Since these are from HIPs I fully intend to convert them up into a variety of poses, though, and the Tempest heavy weapon troopers are my favorite models so far... although I have hopes that the robots will take that top spot once revealed.
They will. The robots are ranking right up there with Elspeth on Carmine dragon as 'nicest models I've worked on'. Especially the robots. They're massively fun to build and paint.
winterdyne wrote: They will. The robots are ranking right up there with Elspeth on Carmine dragon as 'nicest models I've worked on'. Especially the scarecrows. They're massively fun to build and paint.
I'm assuming that the robots are the ones in this pic
but I'm rather more interested in the karist beasties shown, especially the big beastie in the middle bacground.
Will this game feature any off-board support like artillery bombardments or strafing runs with aircraft? I love that type of dimension in a game, particularly a small skirmish game.
legoburner wrote: changing the angle to something completely different is a straightforward conversion if it bugs you that much.
It's not so much that I'm bugged by the sculpt, just bugged by the physical impossibility of a human being holding and firing a weapon with the wrist at that angle.
I don't find the angle that disturbing. It is a bit limp-wristed, but it reminds me more of the way that someone would hold a power-tool (chainsaw, jaws-of-life) rather than a gun.
Fluff wise the gun he is holding is more of an energy weapon rather than a projectile weapon (I might be mistaken there, so the writers can correct me if I'm wrong) so maybe there is not really much of a recoil to worry about. Without any recoil I would expect the front hand to worry more about holding and leveling the weapon and less about having a stiff wrist to brace against the weapon.
I dunno, I work with a chainsaw quite a bit and holding it that way is a surefire way to wear out your forearms. An experienced Sawyer would let it "hang" so to speak, like in the MG 42 and smart gun examples above. Its not impossible to hold a tool that way, but its damn inconvenient. Go to your nearest home improvement store and try to hold a chainsaw that way, its not comfortable. Instead, you would want to rest the weapon/tool against your thigh or waist and let that help you support it, with your left arm as straight as possible. This is more comfortable and lets you pivot the object more naturally, say to make an accurate cut, or in this instance, aim properly. It would also be a more stable stance for firing.
Honestly I feel that the Karists heavy troopers are the weakest of the range, with the regular karists not far behind . I realize Im in the minority here but I just don't quite care for them. Which is weird, because I love the dreamforge heavy troopers which are very similar (hell, the legs look the same) but think these guys are lackluster. I'll probably kitbash them heavily with the heavy eisenkarn bits to make them look better.
Guys, let's please keep it on-topic. If you want to start a thread comparing miniatures across companies, please start one in Dakka Discussion. Thanks.
While I was airborne yesterday I missed a bunch of questions, so here they are and my apologies for the delay!
Da Stormlord wrote:
Will there be any conversion/ upgrade sprues?
This is a tough one - not initially. It is something that makes sense generally to increase the range of models available (additional poses, additional heads, alternate weapons, etc) but without accurate data on specific unit model demand it is too risky to spend what could otherwise allow us to create an entirely new sprue (or two) of models. As such, and at best, maybe in a couple of years but not in 2015 or 2016. Upgrade sprues are generally not something we are interested in compared to just making a sprue that can make multiple characters.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:will there be options for a PDFs art book or fluff bible during the kickstarter? I definitely want the novels in paper, but something like a codex would be a great way to get the gist of the setting quickly. Also, there must be lots of design artwork in your files that would sell the look and feel of the universe.
Our work is calling out for an art book and a PDF art book is certainly something I'd like to see happen at the very least. We will be filtering out art (and a bunch of other things) over the next year though and we want to keep a lot of it a surprise until we are ready to show it, just because we need things to keep everyone interested in the universe between the end of the kickstarter pledge period and the first release of non-kickstarter models so that we dont lose inertia.
Taarnak wrote:Out of curiosity: Who is the sculptor?
Not many companies credit their sculptors and I don't really understand why. Lol.
We've used a lot of sculptors and because these are digital, they usually pass through 3-4 hands each until they are ready for production. People dont discuss their sculptors because then other companies want to hire them too and a sculptor can only put out so many models per year so it can cripple smaller firms.
Davylove21 wrote:I assume that the ubiquity of shoulder pads in sci fi miniatures is to do with sculpting shoulders on multipart models.
The karist pauldrons started as a joke that we couldnt make sci-fi models without having heavily protected shoulders, but there is a practical reality to it in that the seam from the join on the arm is very noticeable if you just have fabric or skin, so if you want an arm that looks good and can be posed, it needs something to break up the connecting join with the torso, and shoulderpads are generally the least intrusive way to do that. Lots of strapping works as well, as does hard armour on the torso, but shoulderpads on those models are our preference (mainly because we like the general style and it lets us tie faction design DNA together in a clean way)
Accolade wrote:The Karis in some ways make me think of the Nod from the Command and Conquer games. I'm not sure why, and that mindset can obviously be dispelled once I learn more about the game, but it's sort of the impression I have right now. Maybe something between Nod and Menoth from Warmachine.
It's the bald guy giving off a Kane vibe
ClockworkChaos wrote:Haven't decided how a feel about the models yet but I love the universe and would like to get my hands on the story. Any approx of when the books will be out in soft cover? Will they be available to buy during the KS? I would really like to read them but I do not have a Kindle and with all the time I spend working on the computer during the day my eyes are not up to reading a story (no matter how awesome) on the computer at night.
They will not be in soft cover for quite some time, though if there are spares left after Salute we'll try and figure out a distribution mechanism so our earliest fans can get a copy. They are a very limited print run though.
Asherian Command wrote:Is there anything the community can do to support this project?
Positive vibes feed the creativity of the team and help motivate us all to work harder and better, so thanks to all for that so far. When we start seeing dioramas, paintjobs, tactics, battle reports, inspirational threads, etc once the models are out, that will be a massive part of our project and we cant wait to interact with everyone to help spread some truly beautiful work around the world. Right now, the main thing that the community can do to help is to spread the word to everyone - from threads on other wargaming sites to posts on facebook, twitter, etc. The more people who are interested in Maelstrom's Edge, the more likely we are to build critical mass to allow us to do some even more amazing things.
Vermonter wrote:
Hands attached to weapons is more important than hands attached to arms, in my opinion. Lego hands with weapons unattached look terrible; fitting hands to arms is easy, and works better for conversions.
Our unattached hands have almost no excess clearance - they are a piece of engineering beauty as you shall see
Vermonter wrote:
The legs being unattached to the hips is more fiddly, but having worked with Mantic's hard plastic enforcers, I'm getting more used to this. Their legs are independent for the same practical casting reasons as the Karist's. The main thing is that you make it very obvious which legs are optimal for which torso/hips, so there's no confusion / frustration in matching them up.
The karist trooper legs work with any of the hips - the hip piece is identical across all three. Much credit to our sculptors and engineers for that piece of lovely work. The legs are paired for aesthetic reasons, but any combination will fit together, though non-paired will look really weird, but might be good for some conversions such as injured models or part swaps with peg legs and things.
Vermonter wrote:
I also wanted to mention that I appreciate the conservative approach taken to posing in this first batch. No one has a foot on a rock, which looks ridiculous when you have 6 guys standing on the same rock in multiple units. I also am glad to see no running poses, just because the limited number you'd be able make (say, 1 or 2 at most) would cause the same problem of making every runner look the same. I say leave that stuff to conversions.
It was hard having to make that choice, but we went with it pretty much for the reasons you've identified. Our in house team have done some simple, fun and effective conversions to make running infantry, dead infantry and rock climbing models from the base kits and they all look pretty cool.
Vermonter wrote:From your talk of having improved since these first sprues were done, I take it you'll be launching with more than these, and are just holding some back for now?
Paradigm wrote:Are the three types shown the only sprues that will be the starter set, or will there be more?
We are getting close now, so I can exclusively reveal that there will be 8 distinct model types in the starter set. Of those, 2 are not yet production ready so will not be shown (other than in artwork form) before the kickstarter. Of the remaining 6, 3 you've seen and 2 share quite a few design elements but are visually distinct models with clearly different roles and weapons. As a result, there will be 3 more model types shown before the kickstarter as well as the artwork for the remaining two.
dragqueeninspace wrote:
(on pricing)
Why not compare to the ones who do? I'm thinking Dreamforge, KD, wyrd, perry and GW. Are you claiming you are a level above these in terms of casting? or that you don't want to compare on price (understandable with Perry, worrying at the least with KD)
We dont want to explicitly compare ourselves to any other companies as making direct comparisons requires explaining behind-the-scenes aspects of their business plans, costs and tooling methodologies to make a truly fair comparison, which naturally said companies wont be happy to see discussed! Our price point will certainly be fairly priced on balance with those behind the scenes details against all the companies you've listed though.
Will this game feature any off-board support like artillery bombardments or strafing runs with aircraft? I love that type of dimension in a game, particularly a small skirmish game.
Not as a game-wide standard rule, no. However, where appropriate certain units will be able to call in the equivilent of an airstrike/bombardment. For example, certain Epirian characters have access to call in an Aerial Drone strike.
The reason its not a stock rule that everyone can use is because, I guess I have a different opinion than you on this, but when you have a game where you only have 20-30 guys in a force it doesn't feel right to me that HQ would allocate resources to lay down bombardments and/or send air support for such a small amount of guys...that stuff feels more appropriate (as a standard rule) in a larger sized game (like 80-100 28mm models or 6-10mm 'epic' style games, of course).
Paradigm wrote: The sprues do look neat, enough variety for the models you need and pretty crisp detailing. The Karists in particular look awesome, helped by their more unique aesthetic, but the Contractors are plenty nice enough.
Are the three types shown the only sprues that will be the starter set, or will there be more? And on a similar note rules-wise, it's been mentioned that the loadout choices can dramatically change a unit's role, is this to the extent that you could have 3 setups of the same unit with different weapons and have them function completely differently, or is unit choice still more significant than weapon choice?
Keep in mind that exact weapon rules for units are still theoretically up in the air based on the heavy playtesting we'll be doing post-kickstarter.
However, with that said, of the three units you've seen so far (Epriain Contractor Egineers, Karist Troopers and Karist Tempests) when it comes to how their weapon options change the role of the unit:
• The Contractor Engineers weapon options are the least dynamic. It is essentially just choosing whether or not to take underslung grenade launchers on their assault rifles for more points. The grenade launchers give them a lot more versatility (as they can fire either EMP or choke grenades), but increase the cost of the unit.
• The Karist Troopers have a couple different 'special' weapon options, but you can only have 1 of these special weapons (in a standard Karist Trooper squad). There is a Cybel Grenade launcher, which is great for ignoring cover from distance, or instead you can take the Radwave Emitter (a short ranged radiation-based weapon), which is super short ranged (flame template style weapon). Taking the latter really puts the unit into the role of wanting to get close to the enemy and nuke them at close range.
The Radwave Emitter will do a ton more damage, but the thing about this game is that you can't just run up close and shoot an enemy unit unless they're suppressed (or you're coming at them from behind) or they'll generally defensive fire your unit to death. So taking the Radwave Emitter means that the unit can definitely come in and lay down a killing blow, but while you're trying to get that enemy unit suppressed and firing from a distance, the unit won't be putting out as much suppression (as the model with the Radwave Emitter is going to be out of range).
• The Tempest Elites weapon options have the biggest impact on how the unit plays of the three. You can have them equipped with the standard Ravager Pulse Cannons, and then have up to 1 model take a Coriolis Energy Launcher as a 'special' weapon in the unit. This is a pretty straightforward, if massively deadly, layout. But instead, you can give the entire unit Hellstorm Energy Launchers. This is the same wapon on the sprue as the Coriolis, but internally the gun is supposed to be rigged differently...when the unit all has Hellstorm launchers, think of the Wraith Tank from Halo, how it fires massive energy charges that arc high and come down smashing a wide area...that's what the Hellstorm does. It is incredibly, incredibly deadly, but when fired indirectly, the target has a chance to jump out of the way if they'd like...but doing so means you (the firing player) gets to move that enemy unit up to 3"...usually right out of cover. Naturally the Hellstorm option is a LOT more points.
Thanks for that! Sounds like the weapon choices on some units will have a real effect, rather than 40k-esque 'like the rest of the squad's guns, but better', which is great. The 'special effects' on weapons, rather than just making them more killy against target type X seems like it'll be very cool indeed!
Will this game feature any off-board support like artillery bombardments or strafing runs with aircraft? I love that type of dimension in a game, particularly a small skirmish game.
Not as a game-wide standard rule, no. However, where appropriate certain units will be able to call in the equivilent of an airstrike/bombardment. For example, certain Epirian characters have access to call in an Aerial Drone strike.
The reason its not a stock rule that everyone can use is because, I guess I have a different opinion than you on this, but when you have a game where you only have 20-30 guys in a force it doesn't feel right to me that HQ would allocate resources to lay down bombardments and/or send air support for such a small amount of guys...that stuff feels more appropriate (as a standard rule) in a larger sized game (like 80-100 28mm models or 6-10mm 'epic' style games, of course).
Thats exactly what I was thinking of. And certainly not as standard but more of a special type of ability for certain models. Drone Strike is exactly what I would think would be common in a setting like this.
DrRansom wrote: About the game, do the designers have an idea about how to balance army building with the desire of people to put whatever they own in a battle? For, as much as 40K Unbound seems ridiculous, I must admit that any 40K army I ever build will abuse Unbound to its fullest, as I'll go for model design as much as rules. Do you have a plan to balance the need for an equal game with the desire of players to play with what they have / want?
IMHO, giving players limitations when constructing their forces for a game is part of the fun. I don't really understand the concept of 'unbound' as an actual rule ever needs to be put into a rulebook as it is always the case that players can choose to play with whatever models they want. I guess the argument is that 'unbound' legitimizes one player bringing an 'unbound' army against another player who built his force via the standard force building rules...but the truth is, both players *always* have to agree to play a game or it doesn't happen, so if one guy doesn't want to play a game against an 'unbound' army then he's not going to.
So there are no plans to specifically allow players to use everything that have however they want. We will have force building rules that are hopefully flexible enough to make people happy, but still restrictive enough to force you to make tough (yet exciting) choices when designing your force for battle.
But this post has reminded me that it can't hurt to put a little blurb in the rules that 'it is always okay to ignore the force construction rules and play a game with whatever models you want, so long as both players are open to it.'
Long as you have a decent priced delivery to the UK, im interested. guessing as some of the Dakka "staff" for lack of a better word are globally positioned so probably saves some problems having people on the ground close to both Europe and USA.
just don't fall to the darkside and cover things in skulls lol
I assume your goal on this is to have a tight ruleset that will support competitive play. Will you be actively supporting future competitive play with this game? Similar to how PP does with Warmachine?
jhe90 wrote: Long as you have a decent priced delivery to the UK, im interested. guessing as some of the Dakka "staff" for lack of a better word are globally positioned so probably saves some problems having people on the ground close to both Europe and USA.
just don't fall to the darkside and cover things in skulls lol
We are joint UK / US based so no worries about delivery!
jhe90 wrote: Long as you have a decent priced delivery to the UK, im interested. guessing as some of the Dakka "staff" for lack of a better word are globally positioned so probably saves some problems having people on the ground close to both Europe and USA.
just don't fall to the darkside and cover things in skulls lol
We are joint UK / US based so no worries about delivery!
I know this might be a longshot (and a bit premature), but what are the chances you guys will go through the bother of getting VAT-refunds from the UK and passing them on to lovely onomatopoeia in Norway? I really like the look of Maelstrom's Edge, but I am significantly less excited about paying 25% VAT plus a £16 customs fee on every order I make on top of full UK price including UK VAT.
DrRansom wrote: About the game, do the designers have an idea about how to balance army building with the desire of people to put whatever they own in a battle? For, as much as 40K Unbound seems ridiculous, I must admit that any 40K army I ever build will abuse Unbound to its fullest, as I'll go for model design as much as rules. Do you have a plan to balance the need for an equal game with the desire of players to play with what they have / want?
IMHO, giving players limitations when constructing their forces for a game is part of the fun. I don't really understand the concept of 'unbound' as an actual rule ever needs to be put into a rulebook as it is always the case that players can choose to play with whatever models they want. I guess the argument is that 'unbound' legitimizes one player bringing an 'unbound' army against another player who built his force via the standard force building rules...but the truth is, both players *always* have to agree to play a game or it doesn't happen, so if one guy doesn't want to play a game against an 'unbound' army then he's not going to.
So there are no plans to specifically allow players to use everything that have however they want. We will have force building rules that are hopefully flexible enough to make people happy, but still restrictive enough to force you to make tough (yet exciting) choices when designing your force for battle.
But this post has reminded me that it can't hurt to put a little blurb in the rules that 'it is always okay to ignore the force construction rules and play a game with whatever models you want, so long as both players are open to it.'
Glad to hear that, and some common sense being applied.
jhe90 wrote:Agh, so sounds like a very effective model, saves those pesky transatlantic costs :-)
Good luck with the project, though at this point it a seems you already have got pretty far already!
ProtoClone wrote:Really liking the clean, crisp, looking models for your first showing.
Since it is a lower model count game, I might be able to afford it.
flukezor wrote:Im really excited to see the kickstarter and more to come when its all ready to be released. This is looking like a great game/world/mini's.
Thank you!
In case people think we're only responding to questions, we really appreciate everyone's feedback and well wishes! Our core team of eight people have been volunteering their time on the project for the last three and a half years, working for free on the rules, background design and fiction so that the seed money we had could be spent on bringing in the best artists and sculptors to bring our universe to life.
We are all gamers and scifi fans like you and we're aiming to create the game and world that we always wanted to see and play ourselves. We've tried our hardest to make it the best game we possibly could and it's really amazing to get so much positive feedback from such a wonderful community.
The more I read about this, the more I can't wait to get involved. The ruleset sounds unique; I particularly like the whole suppression idea. It seems like you're trying to recreate "real-time" elements in a turn based game.
Yakface yeah I agree limiting the player is a good thing it forces creativity in players to think about the systems and apply them. Its the same way that when you give a few players in say a game like puzzle games, they like finding things to do and figure out ways to enjoy the game.
Limiting the players to certain things encourages more controlled games and more interesting games.
IF limits are not placed on certain cards there would be optimal strategies.
Wow, im a HUGE longtime fan of DakkaDakka (im constantly directly folks here) but im more then a little concerned with the 'apparent' list of similarities between the new game you're working on "Maelstrom's edge" and my game "VOR: The Maelstrom". Its obviously still quite early and details are still sparse but yikes guys! I was fully expecting to see growlers and shard as I scrolled thru the images you posted.
- Squad based sci-fi 28mm wargame
- Primarily features a planet consuming space anomaly called the Maelstrom
- Players play remnants of said doomed planets fighting to survive against eachother
- Alternating unit activation
- Custom force rules
It looks to be using a D6 instead of a D10 so there's one difference at least.
Is it just my imagination or is this game ripping heavily from VOR? Obviously many of those bits listed above are present individually in various other games (especially post 2000) but having them all together makes it seem pretty blatant.
Not even trying to flame here folks so no need to attack, im just asking an honest question.
Skuzzy wrote: Wow, im a HUGE longtime fan of DakkaDakka (im constantly directly folks here) but im more then a little concerned with the 'apparent' list of similarities between the new game you're working on "Maelstrom's edge" and my game "VOR: The Maelstrom". Its obviously still quite early and details are still sparse but yikes guys! I was fully expecting to see growlers and shard as I scrolled thru the images you posted.
- Squad based sci-fi 28mm wargame
- Primarily features a planet consuming space anomaly called the Maelstrom
- Players play remnants of said doomed planets fighting to survive against eachother
- Alternating unit activation
- Custom force rules
It looks to be using a D6 instead of a D10 so there's one difference at least.
Is it just my imagination or is this game ripping heavily from VOR? Obviously many of those bits listed above are present individually in various other games (especially post 2000) but having them all together makes it seem pretty blatant.
Not even trying to flame here folks so no need to attack, im just asking an honest question.
- Mike
Honestly, other than the use of the word Maelstrom, I can't say that we've done many things at all similar to VOR, although I'm not familiar with much about that game. 28mm is the standard size model for this kind of game, alternating unit activation is a very common mechanic, and without custom force rules, how would you choose a side to play a game? I certainly feel that we've made a game that stands all on its own and I think as we reveal more about the rules and background we'll show that other than that one word in the name, there's very little similarities between the two games.
"""Honestly, other than the use of the word Maelstrom, I can't say that we've done many things at all similar to them, although I'm not familiar with much about that game. 28mm is the standard size model for this kind of game, alternating unit activation is a very common mechanic, and without custom force rules, how would you choose a side to play a game? I certainly feel that we've made a game that stands all on its own and I think as we reveal more about the rules and background we'll show that other than that one word in the name, there's very little similarities between the two games."""
Well that's good to hear and I appreciate the reply. As I mentioned previously, im a huge fan of this site and what its done for the wargame community so please don't take my post the wrong way, I'm just a concerned parent of sorts looking out for my creation. Im sure you guys can appreciate that point of view. I'll keep my fingers crossed that "Maelstroms edge" is as original a package as you are saying and will certainly keep an eye on this as it progresses.
I am hoping that stretch goals add more things you already have produced to the box (free sprues) rather than funding new production which would drive the delivery timeline out a couple of years. It would be a shame to have worked on this so long only to have to wait another year or two before anybody gets to play it. I'm guessing ks funds will go towards printing rulebooks/boxes/counters/cards, buying dice, and paying back seed money. I think with your brand recognition and plastic ready to go you could pull in a million. Now that I think of it, hopefully you use some ks money to hire a professional packing house or help.
You may also consider linking more stretch goals to backer count than dollar count, but that would be more of a long term play for the health of the game.
I can't wait to see the drones. I am also really glad that the pauldrons on the Karists are separate. They unbalance the mini a bit to my eyes.
I am hoping that stretch goals add more things you already have produced to the box (free sprues) rather than funding new production which would drive the delivery timeline out a couple of years.
It would be a shame to have worked on this so long only to have to wait another year or two before anybody gets to play it. I'm guessing ks funds will go towards printing rulebooks/boxes/counters/cards, buying dice, and paying back seed money.
From Legoburner on the very first post on the very first page:
We started this project before Kickstarter took off in the wargaming world and based on the strength of the team alone we were able to secure enough funding to create an entire starter box set in real plastic. As we saw kickstarter deliver huge audiences and secured funding to other wargaming companies out there, we adjusted our release plan to start work on additional plastic models beyond the initial box set contents with a view to running a Kickstarter to raise the funds for the physical production, shipping and marketing elements of the plan. It is safe to say that this will be an incredibly low risk Kickstarter for anyone who wants to get first dibs on the game as the project is largely complete at the moment and should ship well before the end of the year. Our only major projected delay will be the beta testing and printing of the rulebook and related shipping. The models are close to completion and have very little work left to be retail ready, with production moving at a great and stable pace.
Skuzzy wrote: """Honestly, other than the use of the word Maelstrom, I can't say that we've done many things at all similar to them, although I'm not familiar with much about that game. 28mm is the standard size model for this kind of game, alternating unit activation is a very common mechanic, and without custom force rules, how would you choose a side to play a game? I certainly feel that we've made a game that stands all on its own and I think as we reveal more about the rules and background we'll show that other than that one word in the name, there's very little similarities between the two games."""
Well that's good to hear and I appreciate the reply. As I mentioned previously, im a huge fan of this site and what its done for the wargame community so please don't take my post the wrong way, I'm just a concerned parent of sorts looking out for my creation. Im sure you guys can appreciate that point of view. I'll keep my fingers crossed that "Maelstroms edge" is as original a package as you are saying and will certainly keep an eye on this as it progresses.
Best of luck to you and the team!
- Mike
Thank you for the good wishes! As a writer myself I can totally understand your initial reaction however I think hopefully I can illustrate a few key differences in our background (although I don't know much about VOR so you'll have to excuse me if I say anything incorrectly!).
* VOR is set in the 22nd century. In Maelstrom's Edge, we're tens of thousands of years in the future, where Earth has long since been lost to the sands of time.
* Several of VOR's factions originated on Earth, whilst our factions have been travelling through space for millennia via the cybel networks that connect the stars, and control any number of planets.
* In VOR planets are sucked in to an alternate dimension like the warp where everyone fights, whereas in Maelstrom's Edge, the entire galaxy is being destroyed by a gigantic, expanding explosion of energy which forces everyone to compete for a dwindling amount of resources and space all while fleeing in the same direction towards the outer rim of the galaxy. In VOR, the alternate dimension is the beginning of the story, whereas in Maelstrom's Edge, the Maelstrom is the end for those unfortunate enough to encounter it.
*We are going for a fairly hard science fiction setting, which from my limited understanding of VOR, is quite a different feel. The Maelstrom is a physical catastrophe, spilling out destructive dark energy into realspace like a galactic tidal wave, destroying everything in its path.
If you want to know more so that you feel comfortable about the many other differences between the settings, if you send me your email by private message I am happy to send you complimentary copies of our first two novels.
Skuzzy wrote:
- Squad based sci-fi 28mm wargame
- Alternating unit activation
- Custom force rules
These concepts are a bit ubiquitous to cite as evidence of "heavy" plagiarism. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "custom force rules", but if you mean a template to create your own faction then the developers have explicitly stated there will not (and likely never) be an option for that.
I understand and appreciate your concern but I felt like the statement "Ill keep my fingers crossed that your story is different than mine" was kind of a passive aggressive jab at the writers.
Science fiction table top war games are bound to share some kind of attributes, thus anyone only semi-familiar with settings will easily recognize similarities.
For example (and I'm pulling this from the VOR wiki page so stop me if I'm wrong):
The Growlers are "a strong and adaptable race directed by the pack's collective hivemind"....Tyranids.
The Zykhee are "vaguely humanoid creatures with advanced technology".....Tau
Shard: "The Shard are a race of life forms who have transcended physical form and have become pure energy. Upon entering the Maelstrom they found the need to encase said energy/essence in crystalline forms"...C'Tan?
Pharon: "The Pharon are a dead race. Formerly mummified, similar to the mummies of Ancient Egypt the strange energies of the Maelstrom have reanimated them".....Necrons
Quick mod note: Skuzzy raised his concern very politely and some of the Maelstrom's Edge staff are discussing it with him (and I believe sharing the novels to show how different the world really is).
So, no need to pile on further about VOR here, and if we could return to talking about Maelstrom's Edge / the topic of this thread, that would be great
How many of the factions will be using robots, and will we be able to field entire forces of robots? Will there be bipedal and quadrupedal robots? So far, those sound like the plastics with the most potential to me.
PS: Since there's a mod warning, I won't point out how similar both games are to my own game, Voracious Maelstrom Hedge, in the hopes of acquiring free books.
excuse me,
Vorpal's Maelstrom : The Edge Miniatures Game
which I wrote in 1987
and is based entirely upon playing squads of The Edge from U2 slaying Maelstrom Press music critics with his Vorpal Guitar
Gallahad wrote: I am hoping that stretch goals add more things you already have produced to the box (free sprues) rather than funding new production which would drive the delivery timeline out a couple of years. It would be a shame to have worked on this so long only to have to wait another year or two before anybody gets to play it. I'm guessing ks funds will go towards printing rulebooks/boxes/counters/cards, buying dice, and paying back seed money. I think with your brand recognition and plastic ready to go you could pull in a million. Now that I think of it, hopefully you use some ks money to hire a professional packing house or help.
You may also consider linking more stretch goals to backer count than dollar count, but that would be more of a long term play for the health of the game.
I can't wait to see the drones. I am also really glad that the pauldrons on the Karists are separate. They unbalance the mini a bit to my eyes.
Thanks for copying in my earlier comments on the matter monders. This question is a good one and does deserve a more specific answer too.
Gallahad, you are very correct - if we were to add any new models or sprues as stretch goals, we'd knock the delivery timeline back by years. We know that given past kickstarters people will be shouting from the rooftops asking for additional model designs, complementary sprues, etc. but it is not something we will be doing for the very reasons you give. We want this in people's hand by the end of the year and plastic development is far too volatile to add anything outside our initial scope to accomplish that goal.
We currently have the core boxed set models and a few extra models planned, which in a retail sales model are intended to be sold as additional supplementary units. As more funds come in through the kickstarter, our carefully calculated margins will allow us to both increase the volume of content in the boxed set and merge in some of those additional models. As such, while we will only have a handful of stretch goals, the majority of them should really drive the content of the boxed set up to a point where the value makes it a complete no-brainer for any fence sitters.
We'll be revealing stretch goals throughout the project so as not to flood everything up front and then have a boring middle, but if we see funding surpass the needs for the stretch goals that we have lined up, we'll switch to revealing them (already unlocked) on a calendar basis to keep the anticipation building.
Thanks for the kind words!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How many of the factions will be using robots, and will we be able to field entire forces of robots? Will there be bipedal and quadrupedal robots? So far, those sound like the plastics with the most potential to me.
Just the Epirians have robots at this time, as they have some pretty key synergies both on and off the battlefield with their robotic charges. There will be bipedal, quadrupedal and airborne robots (we aren't joking when we say they are the robot faction!)
Awww, my single attempt at an assless chaps comment is gone. Oh well, got another question for ya'll:
Not sure whether the books will cover this, but I'm assuming the rulebook for the initial game might, but do we have any hints as to the actual origin of the Maelstrom? Personally, I'm a huge fan of blaming bad science experiments gone awry when angry animal rights activists let the monkey out of the cage ala '28 Days Later', but I assume something as catastrophic as the Maelstrom probably can't be blamed on one single monkey.
So what will we get to know? Will we have any indication as to any specific race being responsible for it's unleashing? Is it a natural phenom? Is it potentially a weapon unleashed upon the galaxy to cleanse it from a race of extra-galaxy beings? Maybe they need to make room for a new fast food chain? A little extreme perhaps, but removing all the beings likely to be potential critics and supplanting them with real home grown customers... profit. My silliness aside, I'm super curious. I'm assuming the various Maelstrom races have entire scientific stations, bases and systems devoted to finding answers and potentially saving the rest of the galaxy. I'm very interested in delving into that particular fluff, I love stuff like that.
I'm also curious about the cybel network. You may not be able to discuss any details here without revealing too much about it fluffwise, so I totally understand if it's not something you can answer without me going and getting the books atm (I don't have an ereader that's working, so until I get a new one, I get to wait), but is it a physically engineered network? A naturally occurring thing where it's only really a network in the description name, and more of a discovery that allowed beings to begin expansion in new ways? I'm not looking for actual science mind, just more descriptions for detail as I'm interested in how the galaxy was expanded into and the potential the network has for it's causal affect of the maelstrom since the maelstrom is described as advancing through the cybel network. Ohh, could a system potentially disconnect themselves from the network if it's been created in a physical/mechanical sense?
I'm happy and excited guys, hope some of this is actually discussable, I'm not sure what fluff is "too much" without getting into what will be available in the rulebook, novels, or just be too 'spoiler-ish'.
But this post has reminded me that it can't hurt to put a little blurb in the rules that 'it is always okay to ignore the force construction rules and play a game with whatever models you want, so long as both players are open to it.'
Please, please do not put any ambiguity or wiggle room the rules to allow for the finger pointing of players at one another for not playing the game "the way it should be played". I left 40k for many reasons including the allowance of player split of "WAAC" or "cheese". I have full faith in your rules writing ability, just please save alternative game play modes for expansion releases or narrative campaigns.
My interest is piqued and I must say approaching Kickstarter the right way is going a long way to have me open my wallet. Thank you for showing such consideration towards your future player base.
I would say the initial model release isn't wowing me to a display level quality but making functional, customizable game pieces like this is an amazing first attempt. Price will always play into buy in, but I imagine that too will be on point.
Some rules questions (if answerable):
Based on my skimming, I'm assuming no true line of sight nonsense, yes?
What's terrain density looking like, ranging from a Warmachine tournament table to an Infinity city board?
The model count seems really low for such a large play space (4'×6'), what are the engagement ranges like? 40k (36"+ guns) or like other skirmish games of hovering around 12" guns?
Is there a speed profile on units?
Is there any movement/move/major action dictated by a random distance roll (outside of gaming standards for random deviation on certain ranged actions/attacks)?
Will there be a specifically supported tournament rules set much like Steamroller or Infinity?
Will units come with rules sheets/cards?
Will competitive play be designed around a unique list format? (two list, specialists, scenario list tailoring, etc?) If not, how are you handling the concept of game balance and poor match ups?
What is the expected faction depth be like in terms of unique units? Or is this a "too soon to tell" target?
Are you expecting to grow the game in terms of codex like updates or models for each faction style updates?
Lots of specific questions, I hope it's not burdensome. I'm okay with "we're still working on that" style answers.
I'm loving the art and will flip through the books when I get some free time to do so. I'll put some pennies back for a starter box.
Phyrekzhogos wrote: Awww, my single attempt at an assless chaps comment is gone. Oh well, got another question for ya'll:
Not sure whether the books will cover this, but I'm assuming the rulebook for the initial game might, but do we have any hints as to the actual origin of the Maelstrom? Personally, I'm a huge fan of blaming bad science experiments gone awry when angry animal rights activists let the monkey out of the cage ala '28 Days Later', but I assume something as catastrophic as the Maelstrom probably can't be blamed on one single monkey.
So what will we get to know? Will we have any indication as to any specific race being responsible for it's unleashing? Is it a natural phenom? Is it potentially a weapon unleashed upon the galaxy to cleanse it from a race of extra-galaxy beings? Maybe they need to make room for a new fast food chain? A little extreme perhaps, but removing all the beings likely to be potential critics and supplanting them with real home grown customers... profit. My silliness aside, I'm super curious. I'm assuming the various Maelstrom races have entire scientific stations, bases and systems devoted to finding answers and potentially saving the rest of the galaxy. I'm very interested in delving into that particular fluff, I love stuff like that.
I'm also curious about the cybel network. You may not be able to discuss any details here without revealing too much about it fluffwise, so I totally understand if it's not something you can answer without me going and getting the books atm (I don't have an ereader that's working, so until I get a new one, I get to wait), but is it a physically engineered network? A naturally occurring thing where it's only really a network in the description name, and more of a discovery that allowed beings to begin expansion in new ways? I'm not looking for actual science mind, just more descriptions for detail as I'm interested in how the galaxy was expanded into and the potential the network has for it's causal affect of the maelstrom since the maelstrom is described as advancing through the cybel network. Ohh, could a system potentially disconnect themselves from the network if it's been created in a physical/mechanical sense?
I'm happy and excited guys, hope some of this is actually discussable, I'm not sure what fluff is "too much" without getting into what will be available in the rulebook, novels, or just be too 'spoiler-ish'.
We'll definitely be exploring a bit more about the universe in the next few days and weeks, including a bit more about the cybel network and the Maelstrom, although some of the excellent questions you ask we don't want to reveal just yet - maybe not for a long while. We've always found that some of our favourite universes have a few little mysteries that you can puzzle over and debate, and the origin and true nature of the Maelstrom is something we're keeping close to our chests right now.
For now though, I do have something exciting to show you all. Here's a bit more of the fiction from our universe - an excerpt from Chapter Five of the first novel, Maelstrom's Edge: Faith. Epirian Sheriff Kyle Wynn and his partner are out in the desert, investigating disappearing terraforming robots, when they stumble across a Karist patrol. This little sample from the novel gives you the first glimpses of the Karist Troopers and Tempest Elites in action, as well as one of the elements of the release you haven't seen yet - and that we're most proud of - the menacing aliens known as Angels.
You can read the excerpt from Maelstrom's Edge: Faith on my website at the following link:
I'm about halfway through the first book. I'm thoroughly enjoying it so far. I've spread the word to a couple of my Scifi minded friends and posted a quick article on my website about Maelstrom's Edge.
TheKbob wrote: Please, please do not put any ambiguity or wiggle room the rules to allow for the finger pointing of players at one another for not playing the game "the way it should be played". I left 40k for many reasons including the allowance of player split of "WAAC" or "cheese". I have full faith in your rules writing ability, just please save alternative game play modes for expansion releases or narrative campaigns.
Have no fear. Everything will be clearly geared towards one set of true 'core' rules, and then narrative/campaign games are on top of that. And in the rules examples, I try to make a point of showing the most extreme application of the rules, so nobody will ever feel like using the rules to their full potential is somehow a loophole or unintended. Obviously I'm sure there will still be some stuff I miss, but there will be every intention to make it feel like everybody is playing with the same set of rules.
Based on my skimming, I'm assuming no true line of sight nonsense, yes?
I've always been someone that believes that aspects of true line of sight need to be included in a miniature game because once you remove them you're essentially then playing a game which could be made with 2D discs on a table. The whole point IMHO of having 3D models on a 3D table is to be able to leverage that unique fact.
However, I do think there is a LOT that can be done to make the process of using true line of sight a lot less painful and remove a lot of ambiguity, and I hope you'll find the rules I've written do just that.
What's terrain density looking like, ranging from a Warmachine tournament table to an Infinity city board?
Terrain plays a major role in the game, but not quite as much as Infinity. In addition, since area terrain blocks line of sight like it used to in old-school 40K, you can block off line of sight to whole sections of the table with a few sets of woods.
The model count seems really low for such a large play space (4'×6'), what are the engagement ranges like? 40k (36"+ guns) or like other skirmish games of hovering around 12" guns?
Ranges are close to what you'd expect with 40K, with the exception that any weapon in the game that isn't 'short ranged' is able to fire beyond its listed range (with no maximum), but requires '6's to hit when firing at 'long range' this way.
Is there a speed profile on units?
Yep.
Is there any movement/move/major action dictated by a random distance roll (outside of gaming standards for random deviation on certain ranged actions/attacks)?
The base move rate is fixed (based on the mode's MV characteristic), and this allows the model to move through nearly all terrain freely (with no movement reduction). If the model goes up/down terrain that is 2" high or taller, then the vertical distance (straight up/down) is factored into their movement, in that case.
If a unit elects to not take cover with its move (not end its move in cover), then it gets some random additional movement added onto how far its allowed to move. This bonus distance is rolled for before deciding whether or not you want to have the unit end its move in cover or not.
So in short, you can always count on a fixed minum distance you're going to move, but if you want to have your unit really get somewhere (but not into cover) then you get some bonus extra distance, which is randomized. Kind of the opposite of 40k, where your standard max movement is fixed, but going through terrain randomly drops that down.
Will there be a specifically supported tournament rules set much like Steamroller or Infinity?
It would be nice, but that's putting the cart before the horse. If the game is successful and if everything works out then I'm sure we'll have something along these lines. The mission rules in particular are designed to be perfectly adaptable for this type of thing.
Will units come with rules sheets/cards?
Nothing to announce on this front yet, but that is a goal.
Will competitive play be designed around a unique list format? (two list, specialists, scenario list tailoring, etc?) If not, how are you handling the concept of game balance and poor match ups?
That's the kind of thing that gets implemented when tournament rules are produced (which again is much too early to talk about). However, I have always liked the multiple list concept that PP uses, and that is something that could definitely be utilized.
What is the expected faction depth be like in terms of unique units? Or is this a "too soon to tell" target?
Do you mean unique units in different types of units available? Or unique in like 'special characters' type of thing where you can only include one of them in your force max?
I guess regardless, its really too early to say/tell. We'd love to get the factions to a really diverse point in terms of having multiple types of themed armies, etc, but that is all dependent on how well things go, plus how many reources we're able to allocate to putting out new stuff for the existing factions while also working on bringing out new factions, etc, etc, etc.
Are you expecting to grow the game in terms of codex like updates or models for each faction style updates?
No codex style books are currently planned. We do have ideas planned on how to bring out new units for factions without putting out full new books.
yakface - thanks for the explanation on list building.
As a follow on, how do you prevent the list building from being: Must buy Y number of bad unit X so I can get a few of awesome unit Z? Something which requires a couple of bad choices to let you get to the 'awesome' choices.
Also, what weapon rules you've shown look like fun. I like slow moving projectiles that can be used to flush a squad from cover. That'll be fun to play with.
Are weapon types going to be tuned to species / target characteristics. E.g. Gas Grenades vs. EMP Grenades for human / robot targets?
PS. I am glad that you are incorporating terrain and LoS into the game rules. I like that model games make you interact with the game board and the models.
I like the use of terrain for the game. Will terrain be differentiated between concealment and cover? For example, shrubbery/hedge rows = concealment, because they make units difficult to see but don't provide protection because they do little to stop bullets, lasers, etc. In contrast, reinforced concrete walls = cover because they make units difficult to see and also offer protection again bullets, lasers, etc.
I realize that's a bit of minutiae but I think it ties into the use and effectiveness of suppressive fire.
I'm excited to see everything unfold once the ks launches. The squad based aspect is reminding me a bit of playing Brothers in Arms on my XBox back in the day.
I'll be wary of the TLOS-lite aspect, but I'll reserve judgement until I've read them. It's sounds like you're mitigating the "I can see that exhaust tip on a Rhino!" or "shooting through cracks in a ruin" stuff. I like my line lasers very much...
Otherwise, that all sounds great. I hope there considerations made to solid scenario play in the first book as I my latest favorite minis games have all been good without it, but great including it.
Also, I know I'm a big fan of things like War Room and Mayanet. Having a digital list building app for rules reading and scheming makes me stay keyed into a game for a lot longer. I know it's probably a much farther down the road aspect, but it's something that I'd be willing to kick in on Kickstarter towards if it was a stretch goal. It seems like an apt one, too.
Random prior to making decisions is much more palatable to making a decision and having it crushed for a "1".
Just curious, but will the rules have any specific fog of war style since we'll be using terrain to block LOS. I sort of assume games with true LOS will have units not fully knowing what kind of other units they're approaching til they can see em, but I could also easily see the argument that in the far flung future, they have good scanning equipment that levels the playing field in terms of seeing anything not actually hidden specifically with some sort of shielding/cloaking tech.
How will the rules system handle that part of the gameplay? Note: I am not a particular proponent of either style of play, Fog of war vs. open fielding, just interested.
DrRansom wrote: yakface - thanks for the explanation on list building.
As a follow on, how do you prevent the list building from being: Must buy Y number of bad unit X so I can get a few of awesome unit Z? Something which requires a couple of bad choices to let you get to the 'awesome' choices.
A force is made up of as many detachments as you'd like. A detachment can have a maximum of 6 units in it, and can never have more of any one type of unit than it has Core units (so you can only include a second Command/Hammer/Vanguard/Anvil unit once you have a second Core unit in the detachment). A detachment must include 1 Command unit, and that Command unit will tell you how many other of each unit type you can then add to the detachment. A standard Command unit would allow 1-4 Core units, 0-2 Hammer units, 0-2 Vanguard units and 0-2 Anvil units (keeping in mind the overall detachment limitations above).
So the max you can 'spam' a single type of unit is 2 per detachment, and you have to take a Command unit and at least 2 Core choices to do that.
On top of that, most every unit in the game can hold objectives except for the big killy stuff which has the 'kill mission' special rule to emphasize that their job is to go kill stuff and not sit around and hold objectives. So if you want to spam those kind of units, you're going to have a hard time holding objectives (which is a BIG deal in this game).
Beyond that, I'm perfectly fine with players 'gaming the system' to take the 'best' units. Naturally we'll do our best to make sure every unit is viable, and we'll be much more flexible than GW at being able to tweak our unit rules on the fly to adjust balance if things are really off.
Also, what weapon rules you've shown look like fun. I like slow moving projectiles that can be used to flush a squad from cover. That'll be fun to play with.
Are weapon types going to be tuned to species / target characteristics. E.g. Gas Grenades vs. EMP Grenades for human / robot targets?
Yes, I really like how Warmachine has different 'types' of weapons that affect different 'types' of units differently. However, as this is a game wehre we are trying to base it somehwat in a believable reality, that means we probably won't be seeing 'undead' or other more fantasy-style units, which makes having those different types of effects/units harder to pull off.
Therefore, every model has a type (even 'human' is a type) and yes there are weapons that have special abilities that affect organic models differently than inorganic models and vice-versa, exactly as you predicted. EMP grenades do extra damage to inorganic models and choke grenades do extra damage to organic models.
Very nice, although I would suggest not using Hammer and Anvil for unit classifications. It's kinda corny sounding and doesn't seem to fit with the other classifications.
Maybe Spec Ops and Armor? Seems to fit a little better.
Also, aren't Anvils usually tough units that hold things in place for the hammers to do their work? Really strong anvils may krump other units but that term usually says tarpit or shieldwall to me.
I guess maybe I'm just clinging to the fantasy mass battles terminology.
Oh, have we talked about qcb beyond short ranged firefights? Will there be proper assaulting? It seems like we'll have to have it if you ever include angels as a usable unit since they like to bash vehicles to shreds.
GrimDork wrote: Also, aren't Anvils usually tough units that hold things in place for the hammers to do their work? .
Speaking as someone who grew up with Looney Tunes, an anvil is more often something big and heavy that you drop on someone when they least expect it...
GrimDork wrote: Also, aren't Anvils usually tough units that hold things in place for the hammers to do their work? Really strong anvils may krump other units but that term usually says tarpit or shieldwall to me.
I guess maybe I'm just clinging to the fantasy mass battles terminology.
Oh, have we talked about qcb beyond short ranged firefights? Will there be proper assaulting? It seems like we'll have to have it if you ever include angels as a usable unit since they like to bash vehicles to shreds.
Heh, we actually had a very, very long discussion/argument internally about the titles for the different unit classifications. What we settled on is something that everybody on the team was happy with. Nothing is set in stone yet, but I'd say there are unlikely to change because we already had a lengthy discussion about eactly that.
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There are close quarters attacks...one of the actions a unit can choose to perform is a 'charge' which allows them to make a double move (double their MV characteristic), move into base contact with an enemy unit and then make a close quarters attack against them.
However, as the game is primarily focused on shooting, but also to keep the mechanics all in-line with each other, close quarter attacks are handled roughly like a special round of shooting. The main difference being its the only type of shooting that you can use melee weapons (and you can only use pistols and melee weapons in a close quarters attack) and its the only type of shooting that can potentially force an enemy unit to retreat. So it has a very specific role in the game...if you really need to push an enemy unit off of an objective RIGHT NOW, for example, then a close quarters attack is what you're going to use to do it.
But a close quarters attack is incredibly periolous unless the enemy unit is sufficiently suppressed, becuase they get to fire a round of defensive fire as you charge in and then if they don't retreat from the close quarters attack, they get to make their own round of close quarters attacks right back at your unit. So your charging unit stands a really good chance of being totally wiped out if you're charging an enemy unit that isn't suppressed enough.
legoburner wrote: Just the Epirians have robots at this time, as they have some pretty key synergies both on and off the battlefield with their robotic charges. There will be bipedal, quadrupedal and airborne robots (we aren't joking when we say they are the robot faction!)
Tracks are better than legs for drones. If it was me, I would produce a plastic kit that can be used to build either tauric-type drones (like the T-1 or Johnny 5) or tankette-type drones (like the TALON) using the same tracked base. Legged robots should be left for the sort of true AI that is smart enough to take advantage of having a humanoid shape.
That really depends on the sort of terrain they're designed to handle. And their normal function... Tracks are bulklier, and less suited for, say, going up stairs or particularly rough ground.
A few times, you've mentioned Defensive/Reactive Fire, and given the impression that it's something everything has to consider when moving/acting. Is this going to be something similar to Infinity's AROs, where an enemy that can see you move can take a shot at you in your turn, or more of an abstract buff/debuff (eg Defensive Fire reduces your unit's accuracy/RoF ect)?
A few times, you've mentioned Defensive/Reactive Fire, and given the impression that it's something everything has to consider when moving/acting. Is this going to be something similar to Infinity's AROs, where an enemy that can see you move can take a shot at you in your turn, or more of an abstract buff/debuff (eg Defensive Fire reduces your unit's accuracy/RoF ect)?
Nope, its incredibly simplified. You only get defensive fire if an enemy unit fires at your unit while within 6" of it (short range) or charges your unit. There are a few other special circumstances where defensive fire occurs, but it is always tied to your unit being attacked at close range or being moved 'through' (for those units that are able to push through an enemy unit).
Tracks are better than legs for drones. If it was me, I would produce a plastic kit that can be used to build either tauric-type drones (like the T-1 or Johnny 5) or tankette-type drones (like the TALON) using the same tracked base. Legged robots should be left for the sort of true AI that is smart enough to take advantage of having a humanoid shape.
That's a cool idea.
And if the guys don't produce a sprue it's something that could be done as a conversion I imagine (rules allowing obviously)
That really depends on the sort of terrain they're designed to handle. And their normal function... Tracks are bulklier, and less suited for, say, going up stairs or particularly rough ground.
That is simply untrue. Tracked robots are perfectly capable of ascending stairs without losing traction - at worst, you would require the ability to angle the "torso" of a tauric robot to keep the center of gravity above the tracks.
That is simply untrue. Tracked robots are perfectly capable of ascending stairs without losing traction - at worst, you would require the ability to angle the "torso" of a tauric robot to keep the center of gravity above the tracks.
I didn't say that they were incapable of it... just less suited for it.
@yak: very excited to hear about the way CC appears to work. We don't need another "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" style game where shooting is just what you do if you are not close enough to charge yet.
Asherian Command wrote: Can I ask where did you guys get your inspiration from or will I Have to do that by private message?
I see alot of reference to various works but the one that jumps out to me is actually Old Man's War in some interesting way.
Never ask a writer where he gets his ideas. That's just rude.
Every concept has already been done in one way or another; all that remains is finding a new take on an existing idea. Just because a concept seems familiar does not mean it was inspired by any specific story.
excuse me,
Vorpal's Maelstrom : The Edge Miniatures Game
which I wrote in 1987
and is based entirely upon playing squads of The Edge from U2 slaying Maelstrom Press music critics with his Vorpal Guitar
Another example: Judgedoug's game is clearly similar--suspiciously so--to the board game B52 Stratocaster: Operation Rolling Stone from 1977, yet you don't see me calling it a blatant rip-off, no matter how obvious it may be to everyone.
That really depends on the sort of terrain they're designed to handle. And their normal function... Tracks are bulklier, and less suited for, say, going up stairs or particularly rough ground.
That is simply untrue. Tracked robots are perfectly capable of ascending stairs without losing traction - at worst, you would require the ability to angle the "torso" of a tauric robot to keep the center of gravity above the tracks.
epirian robots are mostly based on mining and terraforming related designs in which the artwork simply looks much better without tracks, clambering over big piles of rubble, destroyed buildings, etc. We tried tracks on the early iterations of our robotic design but things almost always ended up looking like Johnny 5 as you say, and would have meant locking in to a very incompatible silhouette with the rest of the range. On top of that, there is much less room to experiment with tracks than legs. I know someone will want to post links to a dozen nice, variable tracks from across the gamut of sci-fi in response to this, but designs have to be considered relative to our artist capability and budget to employ ranges of artists too, so we are also angled in our choices more towards what they can make look awesome, based on the opinions and preferences of our team and testers.
Asherian Command wrote: Can I ask where did you guys get your inspiration from or will I Have to do that by private message?
I see alot of reference to various works but the one that jumps out to me is actually Old Man's War in some interesting way.
Never ask a writer where he gets his ideas. That's just rude.
Every concept has already been done in one way or another; all that remains is finding a new take on an existing idea. Just because a concept seems familiar does not mean it was inspired by any specific story.
excuse me, Vorpal's Maelstrom : The Edge Miniatures Game which I wrote in 1987 and is based entirely upon playing squads of The Edge from U2 slaying Maelstrom Press music critics with his Vorpal Guitar
Another example: Judgedoug's game is clearly similar--suspiciously so--to the board game B52 Stratocaster: Operation Rolling Stone from 1977, yet you don't see me calling it a blatant rip-off, no matter how obvious it may be to everyone.
It is?
Thats wierd most artists point to their inspirations of their work quite easily.
But that may be a game designer shtick. As the artists I know and the writers I know easily say "Yeah this is my inspiration."
Very excited to see this in action! I second the notion of a video bat-rep on the KS and am very interested in seeing an actual game played through.
Very excited to see the legs separate on a few of those sprues. I love it when I can reposition anything and everything on a model without busting out the razor saw or clippers. I hope you have the same kind of philosophy when it comes to the robots. I for one would welcome a higher complexity over more static poses.
I don't know that I'd call it 'rude'... but it's not always an answerable question, as a lot of the time that inspiration isn't necessarily a conscious thing.
I think it was Stephen King who once answered that question in an interview by claiming that he picked up his ideas from a little store down the road...
Just stumbled across this. Haven't gone back to read the whole topic yet, but I went over the updates and I just wanted to say well done!
It's rare to see a project going to KS with so much already done and so much time and effort already invested. You guys obviously did your homework and I hope you reap the rewards.
Thats wierd most artists point to their inspirations of their work quite easily.
But that may be a game designer shtick. As the artists I know and the writers I know easily say "Yeah this is my inspiration."
In general, it is a contentious question, one that feeds into the popular cliche that people do not sit and plan and think but rather see something unusual or hear the dumb member of the A-Team say something dumb, and then have a Eureka "you're a genius!" moment to get their ideas.
However, when you are asking a professional writer which other IP he 'got' his ideas from, that is definitely rude. It can also open up all kinds of legal trouble. If Lego said something specific, like, "Actually, we were inspired by Fox property Aliens VS Predator," what do you think would happen? Do you see anything good coming from that?
Try this: "Mr. Harlan Ellison, I loved your story, 'I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream'. Were you inspired by The Terminator?" Let me know how that goes.
Thats wierd most artists point to their inspirations of their work quite easily.
But that may be a game designer shtick. As the artists I know and the writers I know easily say "Yeah this is my inspiration."
In general, it is a contentious question, which feeds into the popular cliche that people do not sit and plan and think but rather see something unusual or hear the dumb member of the A-Team say something dumb, and then have a Eureka "you're a genius!" moment to get their ideas.
However, when you are asking a professional writer which other IP he 'got' his ideas from, that is definitely rude. It can also open up all kinds of legal trouble. If Lego said something specific, like, "Actually, we were inspired by Fox property Aliens VS Predator," what do you think would happen? Do you see anything good coming from that?
Try this: "Mr. Harlan Ellison, I loved your story, 'I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream'. Were you inspired by The Terminator?" Let me know how that goes.
I have no mouth and I must scream is definately inspired by dark plots. But I mean I am not asking for specifics. I disagree mostly because some writers due say yeah. "we got our inspirations from Blade Runner or we really liked Lovecraft and we wanted to expand and show what we thought of as lovecraftian."
Knowing where your inspirations come from is good. I am not asking exactly which and what was taken from. Just inspirations from authors. Its much like concept art, people make references to the art that inspired them to make that type of art. It happens all the time in the games industry and replication in that industry is seen as a good thing. Game designers, concept artists they love seeing what people do with their worlds or seeing their stuff inspire people to make their own types of things.
I get that some might think of when I say inspirations to be where did you get stuff from, take it as more of Where did you get material that inspired you to make this product. Though this might be a difference between the games industry and the board game industry. Which are two completely different entities.
insaniak wrote: That's probably far enough down that sidetrack. We can let the Spiral Arm team decide for themselves whether or not to be offended by the question...
Fair enough. Designers get to choose the information they deliever or reveal to the public. I can respect that.
Firstly, In the concept art showing the battle, don't think I didn't notice those flying purple monster stingray thing.
secondly, I can't wait to see what you do for the robits.
the shrouded lord wrote: Firstly, In the concept art showing the battle, don't think I didn't notice those flying purple monster stingray thing.
secondly, I can't wait to see what you do for the robits.
In the book they are called Angels. I'm looking forward to seeing how those work out
I just finished the second book & all I can say is wow... That was so much better than expected. You guys really made a top notch universe, on the level of infinity even, & I've only seen a glimpse. There's no way I'm not going in on the kick-starter if I can scrounge up the money. Really looking forward to more background!
GrimDork wrote: Also, aren't Anvils usually tough units that hold things in place for the hammers to do their work? .
Speaking as someone who grew up with Looney Tunes, an anvil is more often something big and heavy that you drop on someone when they least expect it...
I hope to see an add on sprue of ACME crates, over sized rockets/sticks of dynamite and little "HELP ME" placards.
That is simply untrue. Tracked robots are perfectly capable of ascending stairs without losing traction - at worst, you would require the ability to angle the "torso" of a tauric robot to keep the center of gravity above the tracks.
I didn't say that they were incapable of it... just less suited for it.
The developers really need to get a grip and admit that people know far more about their IP than they do. Just deal it with you guys.
GrimDork wrote: Also, aren't Anvils usually tough units that hold things in place for the hammers to do their work? .
Speaking as someone who grew up with Looney Tunes, an anvil is more often something big and heavy that you drop on someone when they least expect it...
I hope to see an add on sprue of ACME crates, over sized rockets/sticks of dynamite and little "HELP ME" placards.
That is simply untrue. Tracked robots are perfectly capable of ascending stairs without losing traction - at worst, you would require the ability to angle the "torso" of a tauric robot to keep the center of gravity above the tracks.
I didn't say that they were incapable of it... just less suited for it.
The developers really need to get a grip and admit that people know far more about their IP than they do. Just deal it with you guys.
Or you know you could just accept they maybe went with legged robots because they looked better? They've already said they tried tracked robots and the legged ones just looked cooler, it's really not a big deal.
Can I ask where did you guys get your inspiration from or will I Have to do that by private message?
I see alot of reference to various works but the one that jumps out to me is actually Old Man's War in some interesting way.
Well, this seems a perfect opportunity to jump in and introduce myself. I'm Stephen Gaskell, Maelstrom's Edge Lead Writer, who along with Tomas Martin (fellow Lead Writer) and Jon Last (Technical Writer) make up the writing team.
First of all, I'd like to briefly say thanks to everybody who's come to this page. The response to the project has been incredible, and it's massively exciting finally being able to peel back the corners of the universe and show the world. We have so much more to show you, and I can't wait to see everyone's reaction.
So, as a writer I'm more than happy to talk about inspirations, because nobody works in a vacuum (well, except astronauts on spacewalks...). As Tomas and others have said, we're all big sci-fi fans on the team, and collectively we've subconsciously taken on board hundreds of novels, films, TV series, video games etc. I, personally, haven't read Old Man's War, but it wouldn't surprise me if other members of the team have. And that's the thing. Throughout the development of the Maelstrom's Edge universe, there was very little explicit discussion of other IPs--they occasionally came up when somebody said "maybe we can have something like X" and someone else then said "ah, but that's awfully close to Y", so we'd then chat about it some more and decide whether we had an original enough slant on thing X, or whether it stepped on some other IP's toes too much.
The other thing with Maelstrom's Edge is that we're building a universe that has scope for many different types of stories, so we have this unifying backdrop, but we have plenty of diversity at the grainiest resolution. What excites me the most is that we can set stories on abandoned space stations, bustling and grimy metropolises, vast spaceships tearing away from the Edge--and the presence of the Maelstrom will equally inform those stories but in staggeringly diverse ways.
I can't speak for the others, but as to a few of my own key inspirations over my 30+ years of reading etc I should cite William Gibson, Star Wars, and general science/tech writing.
Gibson's influence is summed up by his quote "The future is already here--it's just not very evenly distributed"; Maelstrom's Edge features a kaleidoscope of technological marvels from the cybel network to terraforming robots, but definitely not everybody is enjoying those fruits. Star Wars, less for it's moral absolutism, and more for its scope and sheer exhilarating joy. And lastly, I have an academic background in the hard sciences and artificial intelligence, and although I'm a full-time writer now, the breakthroughs coming out of those fields and others, is always a constant source of inspiration for me. As we reveal more the universe, I'm sure some of those sci/tech breakthroughs will become apparent.
I just finished the second book & all I can say is wow... That was so much better than expected. You guys really made a top notch universe, on the level of infinity even, & I've only seen a glimpse. There's no way I'm not going in on the kick-starter if I can scrounge up the money. Really looking forward to more background!
Thanks for the kind words. It's hard to overstate how gratifying it is to hear such feedback. Feel free to post a review on Amazon And don't worry, we've got a tonne more writing coming out over the year--including work by some of the best SF writers in the business. (No, I can't name names!).
the shrouded lord wrote: Firstly, In the concept art showing the battle, don't think I didn't notice those flying purple monster stingray thing.
secondly, I can't wait to see what you do for the robits.
In the book they are called Angels. I'm looking forward to seeing how those work out
Yep, the Angels are something we're really proud of. You can get a little glimpse of these shapeshifting alien monstrosities that fight alongside the Karist Enclave in the excerpt from the novel I put online on my website:
Asherian Command wrote:Can I ask where did you guys get your inspiration from or will I Have to do that by private message?
I see a lot of reference to various works but the one that jumps out to me is actually Old Man's War in some interesting way.
Following on from what Stephen said, I want to share some of my influences - I definitely don't think this is a rude question, and in fact I quite like answering them!
There's load of things that I've been inspired by personally that influence my writing style. There are writers that I aspire to be as good as - like Neal Stephenson, China Mieville, Neil Gaiman and William Gibson, but for the writing I've done for Maelstrom's Edge I think the books I've drawn the most inspiration from are military SF like The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, Armour by John Steakley, Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts, Old Man's War for sure, and perhaps most influentially when I was younger, the Star Wars: X-Wing series by Michael A. Stackpole and Aaron Allston. I would say from a style point of view we wanted them to be fun and readable with engaging characters, but with a gritty, believable feel to the technology and setting.
For the universe itself I think the number one thing we all referenced when we started working on Maelstrom's Edge was the 2003 remake of Battlestar Galactica. A lot of miniatures games (many of which I love) have quite an old school cheesier scifi feel, with elements of fantasy and quite over the top characters with huge power. This is quite similar to the kind of scifi on TV before the new BSG, which was more monster of the week and light-hearted. There's nothing wrong with that kind of science fiction, in fact I like it a lot, but we felt there was a gap in the market for a scifi wargame with a more hard SF, grittier tone. For me the miniseries and first two seasons of Battlestar Galactica showed that you could do science fiction in a style closer to that of great drama series, which was also similar to the tone of many of my favourite SF books. The action in BSG is driven by conflicts between characters (as is all the best drama), and the difficult situations they are put under forces them to make hard choices, so that even characters who are mostly 'good' can make difficult, even incorrect decisions, based on what they thought was the right idea.
So that was one of the big feelings we wanted to capture with Maelstrom's Edge - a universe where real people are forced to make hard decisions due to the difficult situation they're in. There were many other influences - Firefly, Cowboy Bebop and Star Wars of course, for the great mix of futuristic ships and technology with frontier environments and quirky characters. Video games with deep, engaging worlds and fiction like Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic and Halo were also good inspiration for how you make a game more than just its mechanics.
Stephen and I are both scientists by training - I still work in research at the University of Oxford in my day job - and we wanted to try and include a bit more rigorous worldbuilding from that perspective - there's definitely things in Maelstrom's Edge that are inventions, but hopefully we've designed them in a way that seems plausible in a hard SF way.
More importantly than anything else, each of these works we admire succeeds because it has a unique feel and excellent execution of its ideas. We hope that we've succeeded in drawing together elements of each of these inspirations to create something that feels similarly new and exciting, and that people will want to play and explore in the universe of Maelstrom's Edge for some time to come!
Or you know you could just accept they maybe went with legged robots because they looked better?
They've already said they tried tracked robots and the legged ones just looked cooler, it's really not a big deal.
Exactly - I was just being facetious regarding the number of comments telling Yakface and co how they're doing their game 'wrong'.
Rule of Cool should always win. Other than that terrifying four tracked tank thing from Terminator 2, bipedal robots always look better imho!
I apologise, I didn't realise you were being facetious, I thought you were actually saying that people know more about the IP than the developers do sorry!
I agree that rule of cool is key. And yes, it's their game, I'm sure they know what they're doing, and it's their decisions.
excuse me,
Vorpal's Maelstrom : The Edge Miniatures Game
which I wrote in 1987
and is based entirely upon playing squads of The Edge from U2 slaying Maelstrom Press music critics with his Vorpal Guitar
Another example: Judgedoug's game is clearly similar--suspiciously so--to the board game B52 Stratocaster: Operation Rolling Stone from 1977, yet you don't see me calling it a blatant rip-off, no matter how obvious it may be to everyone.
Well, I did just buy copies of B52 Stratocaster on sale at the local Waldenbooks and glue on a Vorpal's Maelstrom logo over the front of the box.
I've never seen a thread so heavily moderated. We can't talk about the design or quality of the model nor the influences - which is the majority of the content of any other N&R thread - what else is off-limits?
Something I'm wondering about the background is how fast does the Maelstrom move and how fast can the various factions travel.
Mainly because that's a fine balancing act between 'we might as well stay on this planet' and 'we'll just nip ahead of impending doom when it catches up in ten years'. And then there's the baffling relativity aspect to time that I can't pretend to grasp as you approach light speed and the likelihood of death before encountering habitable worlds when travelling too far behind light speed.
How did you guys approach the physics side of things when it came to making the maelstrom a meaningful threat? I read that you wanted a hard sci-fi approach, so I assume it was important to you all?
Thanks for the kind words. It's hard to overstate how gratifying it is to hear such feedback. Feel free to post a review on Amazon And don't worry, we've got a tonne more writing coming out over the year--including work by some of the best SF writers in the business. (No, I can't name names!).
Hey so just offhand, will the un-nameable authors be using pseudonyms when they put stuff out or are we likely to see titles come out with their normal names on products? I'm certainly curious and I'll end up interweb sleuthing in any case. I do love seeing what my favorite authors are up to.
You mentioned one of my favorite novels as an inspiration Sir! I never run into other people who have read it, oddly enough. Feel my overwhelming beam of positive feedback! *Makes beaming whooshy noises at his screen*
On a further note, do you guys also find yourself influenced by from writing video games? I'm always curious if some mediums are more or less beneficial than others in the creative spaces given that some things seem either more visually representable or more interactive, and how that affects what you see in your minds eye as you write.
Love what I'm reading so far. I'm positive that I'll thoroughly enjoy the universe as more of it is unveiled
As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.
Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?
Can we talk about the quality of the design of the influences? Like, how terrifying it is that nBSG is their primary influence... Two good years and then the game will become an unwatchable mess?
I'm still looking forward to the games and the novels, but I'm not sure how you can have a huge sandbox of a wargaming universe built on soap opera personal drama.
Alpharius wrote: Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?
And what about the knee pads?
So it's okay to be critical of other models but not these. Double standard?
Was Mr Slave from South Park the inspiration for the Engineers?
When did he say anything about not being allowed to be critical of the models? He just wants to avoid people talking about assless chaps. There's no double standards at all in this thread, I don't know why people keep saying things like that.
Like I said earlier, I probably won't buy this game, but after reading through this thread, and comparing it to a thread about the new Eldar releases, I can safely predict that this game will never become as horribly broken as 40k, and that can only be a good thing.
Alpharius wrote: Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?
And what about the knee pads?
So it's okay to be critical of other models but not these. Double standard?
Was Mr Slave from South Park the inspiration for the Engineers?
When did he say anything about not being allowed to be critical of the models? He just wants to avoid people talking about assless chaps. There's no double standards at all in this thread, I don't know why people keep saying things like that.
The only 'rules' anyone has to 'worry' about here, or anywhere on this site are these:
Alpharius wrote: Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?
And what about the knee pads?
So it's okay to be critical of other models but not these. Double standard?
Was Mr Slave from South Park the inspiration for the Engineers?
When did he say anything about not being allowed to be critical of the models? He just wants to avoid people talking about assless chaps. There's no double standards at all in this thread, I don't know why people keep saying things like that.
Agree with this. If anybody wants proof that the mods will not be biased towards this game, then check out page 5 where Yakface addresses these concerns in reply to me asking this very question.
As long as criticism abides by the dakka rules of politeness, then you can criticise this game until the cows come home.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Can we talk about the quality of the design of the influences? Like, how terrifying it is that nBSG is their primary influence... Two good years and then the game will become an unwatchable mess?
I'm still looking forward to the games and the novels, but I'm not sure how you can have a huge sandbox of a wargaming universe built on soap opera personal drama.
I did say it was only the miniseries and first two seasons to be fair - I don't want any of the writer-strike soap opera debacle that came afterward! Even then, it was more the tone of the series (and other TV, movies and books since) that I was citing as the inspiration, rather than taking every aspect of it wholesale.
We're proud of what we created, and we hope that people will be excited about it.
Funny, I just went and bought Armor as well. Surprised I hadn't heard of this one before.
Keeping on topic here, I finished up the first book yesterday and was quite impressed. I went in with the impression that it would have a good story, but be a bit pulpy and need some editing, but it's a nice tight story that didn't go overboard with jargon and re-iterating the same information over. Just ordered Sacrifice and will start on it tonight.
Alpharius wrote: ARMOR by John Steakley is one of my all time favorite books!
I've got this well read version on my shelf still:
Spoiler:
I've always wanted a sequel, but it doesn't seem like Steakley wrote a whole lot after this...and of course, now it's too late!
So, knowing this bit of Inspiration Info has me even more excited!
I'm a dinosaur though, so I'm waiting for Dead Tree versions of the books!
Ordered it, lest I get baned for not belonging to the cool crowd.
Yay, Brook!
"Dammit, I cannot help but wonder:
Are you there, Felix?
Are you there?"
Man am I happy to see that as an influence in a science fiction game. Give me some scout armored units and I will be so incredibly stoked. Well, assuming some faction gets something neat like that in any case, but yeah. So good! Sorry, I'll keep on topic from here on out.
Alpharius wrote: ARMOR by John Steakley is one of my all time favorite books!
I've got this well read version on my shelf still:
Spoiler:
I've always wanted a sequel, but it doesn't seem like Steakley wrote a whole lot after this...and of course, now it's too late!
He was writing a sequel at the time of his death and there used to be an excerpt floating around but his fan site which hosted it appears to have closed down. Maybe one day the next of kin will allow the unfinished manuscript to be completed by someone else.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Can we talk about the quality of the design of the influences? Like, how terrifying it is that nBSG is their primary influence... Two good years and then the game will become an unwatchable mess?
I'm still looking forward to the games and the novels, but I'm not sure how you can have a huge sandbox of a wargaming universe built on soap opera personal drama.
I did say it was only the miniseries and first two seasons to be fair - I don't want any of the writer-strike soap opera debacle that came afterward! Even then, it was more the tone of the series (and other TV, movies and books since) that I was citing as the inspiration, rather than taking every aspect of it wholesale.
We're proud of what we created, and we hope that people will be excited about it.
I must have missed where you said that. Confidence: restored.
Guess we won't look forward to rolling for the Scotch save, or taking a leadership test for infidelity.
And I'm with Alpharius regarding the dead tree versions. As soon as I can read actual novels set in your universe, you will have "made it" as far as I'm concerned.
Just throwing this out for next year, but I hear there's a way to leverage a popular web forum into a Hugo Award.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GrimDork wrote: Those covers for SciFi books usually look like crap, its a nice cover. Has it got go do with powered armor and aliens? I could handle that.
Yeah, it's sort of a next generation take on Starship Troopers, from what I remember. I can't honestly remember if I've even finished it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, I own the version with that cover instead of the later, more generic cover it was reprinted with. So, in effect, I'm as cool as that Cobra Kai dude who says you're gonna need a body bag.
The authors talked about their inspirations, so I figured I'd mention what mine were from a rules-writing perspective.
First thing to note is my firm belief that, similar to movies, there are no 'new' game mechanics to create in this day and age...pretty much everything has already been done or implemented in some variety or fashion, so at this point creating a game is really just about deciding what types of mechanics you like, when best to utilize them, and how to wrap them all together in a way that is pleasing and (hopefully) feels fresh.
I'm not going to go into the myriad of different games that inspired me (save for a couple big ones below) except to say that I purposely avoided cracking open specific rulebooks when writing MEdge as I didn't want to unintentially end up copying whole concepts outright.
There are definitely two games that inspired me more than any others from a conceptual standpoint, and one is actually a video game: Full Spectrum Warrior, which I believe came out on the original XBox. It is a squad-based tactical shooter, but what is kind of fascinationg about it is that it was originally designed to be a training tool for the US military and only then converted over to be a retail game.
What inspired me is that as a player, you pretty much only get to control individual fireteams, meaning you are totally unable to aim an individual soldier's firing and therefore you are almost never able to pick off an enemy soldier hiding behind cover when you're firing at them from their front. Because it was originally a training tool, its 'goal' was to teach you proper military strategy: mainly that you need to use one fireteam to pin down an enemy unit behind cover and then use your second fireteam to sweep around their flank and pick them off, and that is essentially the *only* way you can kill enemies who are in cover. Conversely, allowing your fireteams to stand out of cover (or get flanked by the enemy) results quickly in their demise.
It was fascinating/interesting to me that this game was willing to use abstraction to 'teach' its goals. Obviously in real life a solder firing at an enemy soldier has at least *some* chance to hit them, even when the enemy is taking cover, but this game chose to more or less eliminate that possibility in order to force placers to learn that they need to pin & outflank. Playing this game always made me wonder: Why don't miniature games use this kind of abstraction to help 'force' players to use something more akin to real tactics in their games? Now, I'm sure there are miniature games out there that do precisely this, but they certainly weren't something that was on my more mainstream radar.
When we were first sitting down (virtually) to come up with the MEdge universe, there was a big emphasis on making the background feel grounded and believable. That unfortunately (from my perspective as a rules writer) meant that a lot of fun rules mechanics just weren't going to be a possibility. For example, theme-wise, I knew there wasn't going to be anything like a caster throwing focus into units to help boost them as a unifying mechanic for the whole game. So instead, it actually made sense to go with something more grounded in reality like suppression, cover and flanking as the 'core' mechanics of the rules.
But just as with Full Spectrum Warrior, I tried to kind of build a lot of binary abstraction into the game to force players to make clear decisions about what they're doing with their units. For example, if your units move into cover, they automatically take cover (cause individual soldiers love their lives and want to protect themselves). If you're not going to take cover with your unit, then none of the models in it are allowed to end their move in/touching cover. This type of binary choice forces a player to make a tough choice *and* helps make it crystal clear at a glance to both players which units on the table are in cover and which are not.
Similarly, 'short range' is set at 6" (no matter the weapon) and it is this defining range where units get to first fire defensively if the enemy targets them. There are also several benefits that suddenly kick into gear when firing at short range to still make this a desirable thing you want to do (cover is reduced by 1 when firing at short range and weapons with the 'short range' ability typically double the number of shots they get to fire). When you add all these different abstract binary choices together, you hopefully get a game where it feels like the player who makes the most 'right' choices (and knows the probablity of the dice and also gets lucky too) will win the day.
My earilest drafts of the rules were hardline, super-duper abstract to the point of Full Spectrum Warrior: you essentially couldn't kill an enemy model if you were firing from their front arc while they were in cover (just suppress them). Eventually I had to tone this down a bit because there just isn't enough time in a miniature game to fully embrace the concept without makign the moveing and shooting mechanics streamlined to the point where you could play like 10-15 turns. But making the mechanics that streamlined would unfortunately turn off a lot of minaiture gamers in my estimation, so the whole concept was dialed back a bit. You'll still find that it is very hard to kill an enemy unit in cover when firing at them from the front, but it certainly is possible given the right weapon configurations and circumstances.
The second game that conceptually inspired me would be Epic Armageddon from GW. What I really love about Epic is a couple things: The cinematic blast markers used to visually show which units on the table are taking fire are naturally a big inspiration for how we implemented suppression in MEdge. But on top of that, I really like in Epic how it feels like each game turn is fairly long period of time, and you have ample time (movement) with your units to be able to choose where you think the best place for them to move to is (as opposed to being forced to move somewhere because the unit's movement rate hinders them). Epic also had the concept of two different types of shooting attacks: one at long range where the enemy couldn't respond and one at close/short range where the enemy gets to fire back (a firefight). I really like the concept of having different tiers of attacking, each with their own positives and negatives, so in MEdge we essentially have three: normal/long range (the enemy can't fire back, but your firing isn't comparitively all that deadly), short range (where the firing is more deadly, but the enemy gets to fire back) and close quarters (even more deadly than short range plus the ability to drive the enemy back, but at the cost of giving the enemy unit even more chances to hurt your unit). Those '3 tiers' of attacking also flows back to the idea about many binary choices that players have to consider and decide when/how to use them in order to win the game.
I loved the Armor book and I think it is one of the few I kept from my early years. Not so much for the psychological aspect of it as for the description of the Ants and their methods of warfare. I like what I hear about the rules as well. An emphasis on binary choices and a "large movement, short ranged shooting" approach fits with my thinking of what an 28mm sci fi war-game is like. It has the effect of making the table larger, which is needed.
Gonna be totally honest here though - it is unlikely a setting can ever surpass the big 4-0-K for me. I do think you're going about it the right way with novels and such to support the concepts. Hopeful the rules will be at least somewhat adaptable to playing games in any universe. A "build your own units" system would cover that nicely. There are some serious cons to that from a game company standpoint though, starting with hurting the sales of your own figures and ending with making faction design pretty complicated, so I understand totally not wanting to go that way.
Yakface- The rule introduction sounds very promising, though there is a bit of a question: does the game play feel too constricted with so much changing at 6 inches? Did you have a reason why you went for that binary range as opposed to something else?
DrRansom wrote: Yakface- The rule introduction sounds very promising, though there is a bit of a question: does the game play feel too constricted with so much changing at 6 inches? Did you have a reason why you went for that binary range as opposed to something else?
I just needed/wanted a range where short ranged weapons (shotguns/pistols/etc) feel like they should really kick into an extra gear and can dominate. But at the same time, there needed to be a longer range available for these short ranged weapons to still be able to fire while not triggering defensive fire, so that meant that 'short range' needed to be somewhere below what feels right for short ranged weapons' max range (typically 12"). I originally had it set as 3", but after trying it out, it just felt way too restrictive/wrong. Alternatively, 6" felt 'right' when played...it is more or less half range of most weapons you'd imagine being 'short ranged', so it kind of just makes sense.
Yakface, you mentioned the games that inspired you, but is there a game you consciously avoided being influenced by?
Cough...40k...cough...broken...cough
As I said earlier, most people will be grateful if the GW approach to designing games is given a wide berth.
Yes, years ago they did great work, and we shouldn't forget that, but I hope that this game doesn't become horribly imbalanced every time a new faction is released.
Hey so just offhand, will the un-nameable authors be using pseudonyms when they put stuff out or are we likely to see titles come out with their normal names on products? I'm certainly curious and I'll end up interweb sleuthing in any case. I do love seeing what my favorite authors are up to.
They'll be using their own names, and at the right time we'll be telling the world the fact, for sure! We're really happy with the authors we've got signed up, and one of the most pleasing aspects of this whole project was pitching the Maelstrom's Edge universe to these authors, and seeing their very positive reactions. Some had prior commitments making their involvement impossible this year, but we're hoping we'll snare them for later projects.
On a further note, do you guys also find yourself influenced by from writing video games? I'm always curious if some mediums are more or less beneficial than others in the creative spaces given that some things seem either more visually representable or more interactive, and how that affects what you see in your minds eye as you write.
I'm actually a video game writer by trade (Endless Legend from Amplitude Studios the latest game I've worked on), and creating narrative in such an interactive medium is incredibly challenging. For a writer, one thing video games are good at teaching you is how you can use the environmental aspects to help tell a story. On the whole though, I don't think I'm overly influenced by writing in games; for me they still haven't solved lots of knotty problems like telling a linear narrative in a player-driven space. Novels and other constrained mediums are still king. For getting the sense of a living, breathing universe though? Games are incredible at that. If Maelstrom's Edge can one day became a video game...well, I can dream...
Hey so just offhand, will the un-nameable authors be using pseudonyms when they put stuff out or are we likely to see titles come out with their normal names on products? I'm certainly curious and I'll end up interweb sleuthing in any case. I do love seeing what my favorite authors are up to.
They'll be using their own names, and at the right time we'll be telling the world the fact, for sure! We're really happy with the authors we've got signed up, and one of the most pleasing aspects of this whole project was pitching the Maelstrom's Edge universe to these authors, and seeing their very positive reactions. Some had prior commitments making their involvement impossible this year, but we're hoping we'll snare them for later projects.
On a further note, do you guys also find yourself influenced by from writing video games? I'm always curious if some mediums are more or less beneficial than others in the creative spaces given that some things seem either more visually representable or more interactive, and how that affects what you see in your minds eye as you write.
I'm actually a video game writer by trade (Endless Legend from Amplitude Studios the latest game I've worked on), and creating narrative in such an interactive medium is incredibly challenging. For a writer, one thing video games are good at teaching you is how you can use the environmental aspects to help tell a story. On the whole though, I don't think I'm overly influenced by writing in games; for me they still haven't solved lots of knotty problems like telling a linear narrative in a player-driven space. Novels and other constrained mediums are still king. For getting the sense of a living, breathing universe though? Games are incredible at that. If Maelstrom's Edge can one day became a video game...well, I can dream...
That's pretty awesome on both counts man Can't wait to see some more details on the universe. You guys are answering enough questions that I'm already kinda building up a pretty good picture in my head about it all even not knowing more about the individual factions and such yet. I appreciate all the feedback, it's really enjoyable to read.
Not sure if you can answer this next one without spoilers, but can you tell me about how the Maelstrom advances? I know earlier it was said through the Cybel network, but does it flow through the network randomly down different lines to the closest star systems, or does it roll like a massive tide ever outward but down the path of least resistance in the network? I guess what I'm getting at (trying to imagine good imagery for description) does it roll out like the explosive force when the deathstar was destroyed in star wars, or more like electricity picking a path outwards on a network of lines connecting the stars, sorta like a big cosmic spiderweb. Does that make sense?
The reason I ask is because I wondered if the various people of the galaxy had any way of at least guessing where it would pop up next if they could visualize the network, but that might be a spoilerific sort of question.
Hey so just offhand, will the un-nameable authors be using pseudonyms when they put stuff out or are we likely to see titles come out with their normal names on products? I'm certainly curious and I'll end up interweb sleuthing in any case. I do love seeing what my favorite authors are up to.
They'll be using their own names, and at the right time we'll be telling the world the fact, for sure! We're really happy with the authors we've got signed up, and one of the most pleasing aspects of this whole project was pitching the Maelstrom's Edge universe to these authors, and seeing their very positive reactions. Some had prior commitments making their involvement impossible this year, but we're hoping we'll snare them for later projects.
On a further note, do you guys also find yourself influenced by from writing video games? I'm always curious if some mediums are more or less beneficial than others in the creative spaces given that some things seem either more visually representable or more interactive, and how that affects what you see in your minds eye as you write.
I'm actually a video game writer by trade (Endless Legend from Amplitude Studios the latest game I've worked on), and creating narrative in such an interactive medium is incredibly challenging. For a writer, one thing video games are good at teaching you is how you can use the environmental aspects to help tell a story. On the whole though, I don't think I'm overly influenced by writing in games; for me they still haven't solved lots of knotty problems like telling a linear narrative in a player-driven space. Novels and other constrained mediums are still king. For getting the sense of a living, breathing universe though? Games are incredible at that. If Maelstrom's Edge can one day became a video game...well, I can dream...
That's pretty awesome on both counts man Can't wait to see some more details on the universe. You guys are answering enough questions that I'm already kinda building up a pretty good picture in my head about it all even not knowing more about the individual factions and such yet. I appreciate all the feedback, it's really enjoyable to read.
Not sure if you can answer this next one without spoilers, but can you tell me about how the Maelstrom advances? I know earlier it was said through the Cybel network, but does it flow through the network randomly down different lines to the closest star systems, or does it roll like a massive tide ever outward but down the path of least resistance in the network? I guess what I'm getting at (trying to imagine good imagery for description) does it roll out like the explosive force when the deathstar was destroyed in star wars, or more like electricity picking a path outwards on a network of lines connecting the stars, sorta like a big cosmic spiderweb. Does that make sense?
The reason I ask is because I wondered if the various people of the galaxy had any way of at least guessing where it would pop up next if they could visualize the network, but that might be a spoilerific sort of question.
Those are very good questions! Stephen and I are both working on some longer, more formal posts talking about the cybel network and the Maelstrom as we know it's important to understanding how our universe works - you should expect to see them pop up in the next few days.
In regard to the rules: now i know a bit more, i am even more interested!
I always call Epic the best game i know.
A 28mm type game of the same quality is exactlyt what is still missing. Something that feels realistic and balanced in it's own scale of warfare.
The only thing i am "worried" about in this type of abstraction is that the equipment, weaponry and skill of the individual model is of less importance, and thus the individual minature.
And the individual miniatures is what many love in this hobby.
Dystopan Legions from Spartan games does the same thing.
It's OK, quite balanced and it works.
But somehow on the skirmish scale it feels strange that the individual model is not that important. For me the type of ruleset does not feel quite right.
I hope this one will feel better. Just a bit more Inquisitor, Infinity or (yes i write this ;-) 40k, and a bit less Dystopian Legions.
As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.
Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?
Sorry, I was warned via PM to stop being critical of the model design. When I asked where it was appropriate to discuss the model design, I received no reply.
It's more about thread derailment - criticism is welcome, it's just joke posts or repeating the same thing over and over that can get sticky. Because we're interested in the game, this thread has like 20+ mods reading it constantly to see new pics etc , so you may have felt it was more heavily moderated. But we're really going to strive hard not to do that! Just keep it on topic (which does mean not only jokes or the same post content over and over) and polite, like anywhere on the site, and you will be totally fine
Hope that clarifies, I'd actually been meaning to PM you but figured a response here might clear it up best. I have certainly been critical of some things (not all in this thread, some in-person or by PM) and I know the team does welcome criticism, like any good company, as long as it follows site rules. Hope this helps
As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.
Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?
Sorry, I was warned via PM to stop being critical of the model design. When I asked where it was appropriate to discuss the model design, I received no reply.
I was not talking about assless chaps.
And I was making fun of Doug's love of Mantic while he was being critical of the presented models and my post was edited....I've never seen that in any other thread. So yeah, heavily moderated thread is heavily moderated.
So, if we can't discuss the models or other people's reactions to the models in a news and rumors thread.....I guess we can just talk about the rules?
As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.
Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?
Sorry, I was warned via PM to stop being critical of the model design. When I asked where it was appropriate to discuss the model design, I received no reply.
I was not talking about assless chaps.
Hi, I think you were right to raise your observations of the wrist angles and you raised it constructively. As someone who professionally has a knowledge of human anatomy I understand your point. You view was noted. If I may comment though, you kept trying to make your point, a lot. That may have been the reason for the PM, I don't know so can't comment. I have had issues with model design before and choose not to buy them. My feedback stops at that point, it doesn't help anyone to repeatedly try and rub in a flaw.
That said, you are allowed your views. I accept your point. You should not be over-moderated and let us hope this is not the case. To be gagged would be wrong.
My life is too short to get too stressed over some things though. Therefore I choose to believe the armour is an exoskeleton with inbuilt technology to prevent repetitive strain injury/drop wrist/fractured wrist from recoil etc etc. I'm siding with the rule of cool, I hope you can respect my view in the same way that I respect your's
See my post above agnosto - you can discuss the models, criticize them, etc all you want. There so many of us watching this thread, that I may have accidentally doubled up on what another mod was doing. But we're going to strive hard not to do that!
As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.
Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?
Sorry, I was warned via PM to stop being critical of the model design. When I asked where it was appropriate to discuss the model design, I received no reply.
I was not talking about assless chaps.
Hi, I think you were right to raise your observations of the wrist angles and you raised it constructively. As someone who professionally has a knowledge of human anatomy I understand your point. You view was noted. If I may comment though, you kept trying to make your point, a lot. That may have been the reason for the PM, I don't know so can't comment. I have had issues with model design before and choose not to buy them. My feedback stops at that point, it doesn't help anyone to repeatedly try and rub in a flaw.
That said, you are allowed your views. I accept your point. You should not be over-moderated and let us hope this is not the case. To be gagged would be wrong.
My life is too short to get too stressed over some things though. Therefore I choose to believe the armour is an exoskeleton with inbuilt technology to prevent repetitive strain injury/drop wrist/fractured wrist from recoil etc etc. I'm siding with the rule of cool, I hope you can respect my view in the same way that I respect your's
One word to sum up the release of this: "professional". I have been absolutely blown away by the polish this game seems to have. While I'm not in the market for a new game, I hope this pans out. More competition will only sharpen the rest of the companys out there.
RiTides wrote: It's more about thread derailment - criticism is welcome, it's just joke posts or repeating the same thing over and over that can get sticky.
Hope to see this moderated in GW threads as well then!
RiTides wrote: It's more about thread derailment - criticism is welcome, it's just joke posts or repeating the same thing over and over that can get sticky. Because we're interested in the game, this thread has like 20+ mods reading it constantly to see new pics etc , so you may have felt it was more heavily moderated. But we're really going to strive hard not to do that! Just keep it on topic = which does mean not only jokes or the same post content over and over) and polite, like anywhere on the site, and you will be totally fine
Hope that clarifies, I'd actually been meaning to PM you but figured a response here might clear it up best. I have certainly been critical of some things (not all in this thread, some in-person or by PM) and I know the team does welcome criticism, like any good company, as long as it follows site rules. Hope this helps
It's hard to swallow the "criticism is welcome" line when I'm told that the "announcement post is linked to our livelihoods so we need to keep it fairly on track with the reveal". Which is fine, if the reveal/N&R thread is just for only talking about the announcement, then I assume there's other threads for talking about actual content - or substance, as it were - but again, I received no reply when asked where the official thread to go to discuss the design/etc would be.
It's obviously heavily moderated not because of new pictures, but because you guys are all attempting to remain as neutral as possible as this is a neutral website that is now pushing a commercial product. This has obviously been in development for years so I'm sure all the mods had time to prep for the public discussion, especially related to that fact.
Anyways, if, as you say, we can discuss model design (and be critical of them) here, then that's all I need to know. Now, I agree that I was repeating myself when it came to the the poorly-designed 'broken wrist' model, but when it was apparent that it was a physical impossibility for anyone with human-like bone structure to hold and utilize tools in such a manner, it was bizarre when several other posters though it was merely nit-picking or an acceptable design if you just looked at it at an angle that obscured the design mistake. That has been pointed out and I'm sure will be discussed to death in the unmoderated Kickstarter comments when it launches, but there are many other aspects that merit discussion of the OTHER models designs and I am glad that we can discuss them in this thread.
Gorlack wrote: One word to sum up the release of this: "professional". I have been absolutely blown away by the polish this game seems to have. While I'm not in the market for a new game, I hope this pans out. More competition will only sharpen the rest of the companys out there.
RiTides wrote: It's more about thread derailment - criticism is welcome, it's just joke posts or repeating the same thing over and over that can get sticky.
Hope to see this moderated in GW threads as well then!
RiTides wrote: It's more about thread derailment - criticism is welcome, it's just joke posts or repeating the same thing over and over that can get sticky.
Hope to see this moderated in GW threads as well then!
If you see joke posts or repetition in GW threads, click the little triangle. Even the mods can't keep up with a new page every half hour to an hour in the GW threads.
There are 21 mods and admins excitedly reading this thread, so it is going to be seen pretty heavily by the mods compared to the other threads which get 1 mod reading them occasionally, but nothing outside of Dakka's usual rules and terms has or will be applied to this thread.
Sorry I didnt respond to your PM judgedoug - I was flying from the US to the UK. If you recall in the PM I sent you (asking you to tone it down after you posted 8 consecutive short posts on your opinion of the wrists of that one model), the very next line after the bit you quoted from the PM was: "Feel free to start a thread elsewhere if you want to discuss it further as we are not trying to censor anything." As it states, feel free to start a new thread in the misc miniatures forum to go into in depth critique. We are happy for anything to be discussed in this thread, but want to keep things fairly on topic regarding the release so any spin off topic that runs more than 2 pages that is not related to the announcement, we'll likely ask people to take it to a new thread.
There is absolutely no legal or ethical reason that we need to remain impartial towards our game - we have complete ownership of Dakka and nobody to answer to, but we choose to remain impartial and not moderate differently because Dakka is our hobby and passion and we dont want to break it.
judgedoug wrote: Well, sorry for derailing the thread into mod responsibilities
I was reading your earlier posts, and if you're worried about 'bias' towards this game on these forums, then on Page 5 of this thread, Yakface gives his take on it.
I was worried as well about bias towards the game and criticism.
But, considering its their forum, and their game, I'm slightly impressed at the neutrality that has been shown in this regard. I doubt if other companies would allow criticism of their products on their own official forums.
Moved over from a different thread where t'was posted in err.
Vermonter wrote: So - is that a Karist Ninja jumping out of a teleportation portal to ambush an Epirean robot programmer towards the right side of the image?
And are those bat-winged, multi-eyed creatures Karist "angels?"
The ninja-y dude is a Karist shadow walker, and yes both the large and small creatures are Angels of different sizes/maturities. The largest Angel there with huge wings was unfortunately too much plastic to be a tool that we could afford to make, but there's still something cool on that front yet to come
The artwork is nicely done. Keep that artist around!
I'm not a fan of the look of the contractors. They just don't do it for me, whatever it is. However, I really like that first Karist trooper. Imposing and interesting model. I wouldn't want to run into that in a dark ally or even a Fudruckers.
legoburner wrote: The ninja-y dude is a Karist shadow walker, and yes both the large and small creatures are Angels of different sizes/maturities. The largest Angel there with huge wings was unfortunately too much plastic to be a tool that we could afford to make, but there's still something cool on that front yet to come
Oooooooh. "I'm so excited, and I just can't hide it ......" [trails off in awkward silence]
The Angels would be a lovely model to build, I wonder if you could put LEDs in for the eyes ...... [drifts off in to a daydream]
Can we ask about upcoming factions? There are two types of factions I'm hoping we'll get to hear about in this thread. One: an authoritarian regime that is a glass hammer force, bringing overwhelming force to bear on all critical spots to quash the resistance. The other is space bugs.
Vanguard-13 wrote: Has there been a price point per model discussed yet?
I am (as stated previously) a huge fan of mechs.
How much of my soul will I have to sell to get into this game's mechs?
Just the right amount
I am going to have to get some Karists, but then if the Mechs are cool I will have to get those too. Decisions decisions.
On a more serious point, I get the vibe from the game setup that it is far more feasible to own a good fieldable army in most factions rather than GW where you end up filling a whole room with miniatures for just one army. The predominant modeller/collector (me) is going to be happier to get on board with that as long as the price is not extortionate. But stuff costs money to make, it's up to us whether we buy them I suppose (unless they are just too cool to be able to leave them un-bought ).
My apologies if this has already been cleared up, but if I understand correctly, most of the steel molds have been made and the sprues are finalized. So the KS will be about recouping those expenses, or about funding production and distribution? I ask because if you don't have the burden of funding all those steel molds, which will lead to long, momentum-killing stretch goals, you will have a tremendous advantage over your competitors. It would enable you to start with a solid deal right from the beginning, rather than take what has more and more frequently become a slow, torturous route to a final sum that falls well short of a million dollars.
I presume and hope you've done your homework, analyzing as many other KS campaigns as possible. You certainly ought to be far more versed in this stuff than I am. But I wouldn't assume, despite everything you have going for you, that the road to KS success will be clear; regardless of quality / merit, you need to pitch this just right to make it happen. I'm not trying to be cynical, I just don't want to see this campaign launch with high hopes and end with bitter disappointment.
legoburner wrote: There are 21 mods and admins excitedly reading this thread, so it is going to be seen pretty heavily by the mods compared to the other threads which get 1 mod reading them occasionally, but nothing outside of Dakka's usual rules and terms has or will be applied to this thread.
Sorry I didnt respond to your PM judgedoug - I was flying from the US to the UK. If you recall in the PM I sent you (asking you to tone it down after you posted 8 consecutive short posts on your opinion of the wrists of that one model), the very next line after the bit you quoted from the PM was: "Feel free to start a thread elsewhere if you want to discuss it further as we are not trying to censor anything." As it states, feel free to start a new thread in the misc miniatures forum to go into in depth critique. We are happy for anything to be discussed in this thread, but want to keep things fairly on topic regarding the release so any spin off topic that runs more than 2 pages that is not related to the announcement, we'll likely ask people to take it to a new thread.
There is absolutely no legal or ethical reason that we need to remain impartial towards our game - we have complete ownership of Dakka and nobody to answer to, but we choose to remain impartial and not moderate differently because Dakka is our hobby and passion and we dont want to break it.
Perhaps someone can start a thread discussing model design compared to other companies and have a link in the OP saying "please keep model critique and comparisons here for the sake of keeping the news thread less busy for news posts." That way people don't think they're being edited and baned for dissenting opinion.
So how is warehousing/distribution being handled? You said you were dealing with 3 plastics manufacturers, so are you having all materials shipped to one central location that will assemble the starter boxes? Do you have warehouses/fulfillment operations set up/lined up in the USA/UK? Does your team have logistics/fulfillment experience?
Since it seems like your group came together via Dakka that means that you are all spread out, so is there going to be one physical location for your operation or will you continue to run the business in "the cloud" and rent out warehouse/fulfillment services as needed?
Do you plan to continue using three plastics companies or do you plan to find just one that is the best fit for your needs?
ORicK wrote: In regard to the rules: now i know a bit more, i am even more interested!
I always call Epic the best game i know.
A 28mm type game of the same quality is exactlyt what is still missing. Something that feels realistic and balanced in it's own scale of warfare.
The only thing i am "worried" about in this type of abstraction is that the equipment, weaponry and skill of the individual model is of less importance, and thus the individual minature.
And the individual miniatures is what many love in this hobby.
Dystopan Legions from Spartan games does the same thing.
It's OK, quite balanced and it works.
But somehow on the skirmish scale it feels strange that the individual model is not that important. For me the type of ruleset does not feel quite right.
I hope this one will feel better. Just a bit more Inquisitor, Infinity or (yes i write this ;-) 40k, and a bit less Dystopian Legions.
While Epic was certainly an inspiration for the overall feel of parts of the game, the actual process of resolving shooting does *not* echo Epic. Each model in a unit generates its own shooting dice based on the weapon they are firing and then you roll them all together (much like 40k pre-7th edition). You will need different colored dice or just roll them in seprate batches to keep track of which weapon is hitting/missing when you're dealing with a unit firing different weapon types.
So yes, each individual model in the unit does matter, particularly when it comes to them firing. When a unit takes fire, the entire unit gets hit, so there is the abstraction that you're using the most common defensive characteristic amongst the models in the unit (should they vary between models in the unit) and then for the most part the owning player gets to choose which model in the unit gets removed as a casaulty (representing other models in the unit being able to pick up special weapons, etc, dropped by their dying compatriats).
Are you going to open it up similar to gamesworkshop allowing people to tell their own stories in their own pockets?
Will their be offical lore and unoffical lore?
Will you leave certain things to ambiguity?
Exactly when do you plan to put up the kickstarter?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'in their own pockets' but we are definitely friendly to people who want to write fiction in our universe (as long as they acknowledge that it's a Maelstrom's Edge story and don't sell it themselves, for obvious reasons). We are also going to be looking for content for a regular short fiction ebook collection, and I am very keen that people will be able to submit their own Maelstrom's Edge stories to that and we will publish the best ones.
We have been very careful in setting up our lore (we have hundreds of thousands of words of background text in our internal wiki). We don't plan to have any official/unofficial lore (although you might need to be more specific with your question as I'm not entirely sure I've understood exactly what you want to know) - that's why we're being very careful in releasing lore on this thread - we'd rather not say something that might contradict other things later.
We definitely want to keep some parts of the universe ambiguous, both in terms of having a few mysteries for people to puzzle over (like the origin of the Maelstrom) and also in terms of the motivations of the factions - I've been very passionate throughout our design process in trying to make each faction identifiable and not clearly the 'good' or evil faction - this makes for better fiction as if the characters have believable motivations you can make more interesting stories, but also it appeals to me as a gamer because people can have genuine debate as to which faction is 'the right one' in terms of their motivation and actions.
The kickstarter will be very soon! Lego is in charge of all things logistical so I'll leave him to answer those kind of questions.
Vanguard-13 wrote: Has there been a price point per model discussed yet?
I am (as stated previously) a huge fan of mechs.
How much of my soul will I have to sell to get into this game's mechs?
Model point values will be one of the very last things to be finalized, still pending some heavier playtesting that we'll (hopefully) generate post-kickstarter once we (again hopefully) have a much larger pool of interested people willing to try out the rules and give feedback than we did when it was completely under wraps.
However, the goal is hopefully that you'll be able to play a decent game with what comes in just the starter box. Combine two of them and you'll most certainly have enough models to pick from to make a fully standard (recommended) sized game. Any models you purchase beyond that will be to allow you to try out different force builds.
So although the final details are still a bit up in the air pending the Kickstarter, you hopefully will get about 2/3 of a 'standard' force size for each faction in each starter box set.
Are you going to open it up similar to gamesworkshop allowing people to tell their own stories in their own pockets?
Will their be offical lore and unoffical lore?
Will you leave certain things to ambiguity?
Exactly when do you plan to put up the kickstarter?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'in their own pockets' but we are definitely friendly to people who want to write fiction in our universe (as long as they acknowledge that it's a Maelstrom's Edge story and don't sell it themselves, for obvious reasons). We are also going to be looking for content for a regular short fiction ebook collection, and I am very keen that people will be able to submit their own Maelstrom's Edge stories to that and we will publish the best ones.
We have been very careful in setting up our lore (we have hundreds of thousands of words of background text in our internal wiki). We don't plan to have any official/unofficial lore (although you might need to be more specific with your question as I'm not entirely sure I've understood exactly what you want to know) - that's why we're being very careful in releasing lore on this thread - we'd rather not say something that might contradict other things later.
We definitely want to keep some parts of the law ambiguous, both in terms of having a few mysteries for people to puzzle over (like the origin of the Maelstrom) and also in terms of the motivations of the factions - I've been very passionate throughout our design process in trying to make each faction identifiable and not clearly the 'good' or evil faction - this makes for better fiction as if the characters have believable motivations you can make more interesting stories, but also it appeals to me as a gamer because people can have genuine debate as to which faction is 'the right one' in terms of their motivation and actions.
The kickstarter will be very soon! Lego is in charge of all things logistical so I'll leave him to answer those kind of questions.
Yeah let me clarify what I mean by 'pockets'. I am referring to pocket universes where people make their own universes within the universe you create. I had that happen to one of my projects a long time ago. People took my world and started to make their own characters and worlds. In game design we call this transmedia worlds. Where it expands to more than one form of media. Most often this happens in very big worlds that are bigger than life. Pokemon, Warhammer, Halo, warcraft all these games are transmedia worlds. Sorry I probably goofed up before by saying pockets as not everyone is included into the vocabulary I use to define things, thats my bad. But in short I mean places where players can write their own interpretation of the worlds you guys create?
What I mean in unofficial and official lore is that some books and some series they produce so much material from so many authors. That there is contradiction in the base lore between authors. Such as warhammer 40k where authors rarely conclude on how tall a space marine is or different historical figures, or whole different interpretations. I am asking in that are you planning on trying to keep everything the main studio (Maelstorm Games) as official lore and anything written outside of studio as unofficial or will you deem them official lore if they write for the company and have the companies blessing? Because some universes do that. Every author even they don't try to perceive the world differently cannot exactly copy a writer who wrote about the same universe. I had a 'client' (Professor) who wanted me to write in a certain way but I wrote it in a different manner because i perceived his world completely different. Though its up to your team how you do that. I think that is more of logistical question.
Thank you for the responses so far! I love talking to other designers and writers!
As I know the design processes are extremely exhausting and play testing is frustrating to perform sometimes. As is writing and editing all of which i have experienced in the past year or so. Except a bit quicker as our due dates are usually at the end of each week. (Though not trying to compare to anyone, your guys job is probably far more exceedingly professional, difficult, and way better presented than any of my peers could hope to be. My teacher and professors I will probably inform about this project.)
Krinsath wrote:
How long of a campaign are you guys looking to run? That'd really help with planning out monies.
End of April to start of June so that we cover 2 pay days for most people. Going over 30 days is a bit of a no-no, but we are confident with Dakka's traffic numbers and proper pacing that we can get away with it.
Krinsath wrote:
How long of a campaign are you guys looking to run? That'd really help with planning out monies.
End of April to start of June so that we cover 2 pay days for most people. Going over 30 days is a bit of a no-no, but we are confident with Dakka's traffic numbers and proper pacing that we can get away with it.
Is there anywhere to just submit our banking information lol
What I mean in unofficial and official lore is that some books and some series they produce so much material from so many authors. That there is contradiction in the base lore between authors. Such as warhammer 40k where authors rarely conclude on how tall a space marine is or different historical figures, or whole different interpretations. I am asking in that are you planning on trying to keep everything the main studio (Maelstorm Games) as official lore and anything written outside of studio as unofficial or will you deem them official lore if they write for the company and have the companies blessing? Because some universes do that. Every author even they don't try to perceive the world differently cannot exactly copy a writer who wrote about the same universe. I had a 'client' (Professor) who wanted me to write in a certain way but I wrote it in a different manner because i perceived his world completely different. Though its up to your team how you do that. I think that is more of logistical question.
One of my main jobs is keeping the lore consistent between sources. I think the way we approach it is anything written by us, or for us, is official, and fan fiction will be unofficial. And of course, you can't use our IP to sell your own product. Otherwise, we really don't mind people writing stories etc.
What I mean in unofficial and official lore is that some books and some series they produce so much material from so many authors. That there is contradiction in the base lore between authors. Such as warhammer 40k where authors rarely conclude on how tall a space marine is or different historical figures, or whole different interpretations. I am asking in that are you planning on trying to keep everything the main studio (Maelstorm Games) as official lore and anything written outside of studio as unofficial or will you deem them official lore if they write for the company and have the companies blessing? Because some universes do that. Every author even they don't try to perceive the world differently cannot exactly copy a writer who wrote about the same universe. I had a 'client' (Professor) who wanted me to write in a certain way but I wrote it in a different manner because i perceived his world completely different. Though its up to your team how you do that. I think that is more of logistical question.
One of my main jobs is keeping the lore consistent between sources. I think the way we approach it is anything written by us, or for us, is official, and fan fiction will be unofficial. And of course, you can't use our IP to sell your own product. Otherwise, we really don't mind people writing stories etc.
Goodluck to your endeavors! Which by what I have seen you will succeed!
I have a Blackberry, so phonewise I'm still in the dark ages.
I've probably missed it, but when the rules are going out digitally, will these be in .pdf format as well and not exclusive to certain devices and / or services?
The "colonial marine" faction look a ittle "stiff" and all seem to have the same pose/rifle position in the eary pics. Hopefully you have a little more wiggle room to create varied poses/rifle angles than the pics hint at?
The "colonial marine" faction look a ittle "stiff" and all seem to have the same pose/rifle position in the eary pics. Hopefully you have a little more wiggle room to create varied poses/rifle angles than the pics hint at?
The Epirians contractors look like an overengineered version of
Spoiler:
(Robogear by Tehnolog).
Seriously, though, I _love love love_ generic future sci fi infantry. My favorites on the market are Urban War/Metropolis Viridian Colonial Marines, Copplestone Future Wars military dudes, Mantic Enforcer plastics. Just, the top tier of generic sci fi models. Which is why I own scads and scads of them. And about five each of every vehicle Antenociti's Workshop has made, to go with them all, plus tons of 1/48 ultramodern armor. So I'm always looking to get more for various factions for generic sci fi wargaming.
Now...the Epirian contractors...
Spoiler:
The kneepads were designed by someone who has no idea how kneepads work. They will slip off the moment the dude takes a step.
The shoulder armor is held on by wishes.
The rifle is somehow even brickier than a Bolter and must weigh about 40 pounds.
There is no abdominal armor despite that being the most vital part of armor (and the reason that modern military has abdominal armor). (and medieval militaries) (seriously no one likes getting shot or stabbed in the gut) (why the shoulder pad fetish?)
The assless chaps. Seriously. Do they have a butt flap as well? Do they eat a lot of Activia yogurt?
THE HEAD SIZE. Their heads appear to be larger than the armored versions of the other two models. and their arms are huge. Like also they appear to be thicker than the dudes in powered armor. (wait, I got it... do the powered armor dudes FIT INSIDE the Epirian skin-suits?)
Actually, these guys look like someone gave hydrocephalic Hobbits some Nerf guns that were spray painted black.
This is a great example of the George Lucas effect - only a few people saying "YES!" and not enough critical eyes saying "NO" before going into production. This is why there is a need for Professional Naysayers that someone can hire, who is not close to the project, and say "this is a terrible design." Oh, man, I wish GW and Mantic would hire one of those.
However,
the Karist trooper
Spoiler:
Is a valiant effort by someone to remember what their Warzone Bauhaus faction looked like back in 1998 and recalling the most prominent design queues. A solid model for those who enjoy the 40k/Warmachine shoulder pauldron fetish. Nothing remarkable other than the blatant design influence, but, a solid effort.
The best, of course, is
the Karist Tempest
Spoiler:
Now, despite the physically impossible broken wrist design, this model is oozing with great design sensibilities. Segmented armor plates, some sort of jetpack or venting system, enhanced calf/heel thing (sorely lacking on many heavy armor models), just looks great.
This is the model I'm most excited about and will probably buy a ton of and make them Spetsnaz for my future-Russians (who currently consists of two platoons of motorized rifle infantry - Pig Iron Assault Troopers mounted in modified BTR's and supported by four T-80's and T-90's)
Glad to see you like the Karist troopers/tempests, judgedoug! I am very partial to them, too, although I think it will be possible to field a very robot-heavy Epirian force if you're not a fan of the look of the contractors. I know that's what I'm hoping to do
The "colonial marine" faction look a ittle "stiff" and all seem to have the same pose/rifle position in the eary pics. Hopefully you have a little more wiggle room to create varied poses/rifle angles than the pics hint at?
The Epirians contractors look like an overengineered version of
Spoiler:
(Robogear by Tehnolog).
Seriously, though, I _love love love_ generic future sci fi infantry. My favorites on the market are Urban War/Metropolis Viridian Colonial Marines, Copplestone Future Wars military dudes, Mantic Enforcer plastics. Just, the top tier of generic sci fi models. Which is why I own scads and scads of them. And about five each of every vehicle Antenociti's Workshop has made, to go with them all, plus tons of 1/48 ultramodern armor. So I'm always looking to get more for various factions for generic sci fi wargaming.
Now...the Epirian contractors...
Spoiler:
The kneepads were designed by someone who has no idea how kneepads work. They will slip off the moment the dude takes a step.
The shoulder armor is held on by wishes.
The rifle is somehow even brickier than a Bolter and must weigh about 40 pounds.
There is no abdominal armor despite that being the most vital part of armor (and the reason that modern military has abdominal armor). (and medieval militaries) (seriously no one likes getting shot or stabbed in the gut) (why the shoulder pad fetish?)
The assless chaps. Seriously. Do they have a butt flap as well? Do they eat a lot of Activia yogurt?
THE HEAD SIZE. Their heads appear to be larger than the armored versions of the other two models. and their arms are huge. Like also they appear to be thicker than the dudes in powered armor. (wait, I got it... do the powered armor dudes FIT INSIDE the Epirian skin-suits?)
Actually, these guys look like someone gave hydrocephalic Hobbits some Nerf guns that were spray painted black.
This is a great example of the George Lucas effect - only a few people saying "YES!" and not enough critical eyes saying "NO" before going into production. This is why there is a need for Professional Naysayers that someone can hire, who is not close to the project, and say "this is a terrible design." Oh, man, I wish GW and Mantic would hire one of those.
However,
the Karist trooper
Spoiler:
Is a valiant effort by someone to remember what their Warzone Bauhaus faction looked like back in 1998 and recalling the most prominent design queues. A solid model for those who enjoy the 40k/Warmachine shoulder pauldron fetish. Nothing remarkable other than the blatant design influence, but, a solid effort.
The best, of course, is
the Karist Tempest
Spoiler:
Now, despite the physically impossible broken wrist design, this model is oozing with great design sensibilities. Segmented armor plates, some sort of jetpack or venting system, enhanced calf/heel thing (sorely lacking on many heavy armor models), just looks great.
This is the model I'm most excited about and will probably buy a ton of and make them Spetsnaz for my future-Russians (who currently consists of two platoons of motorized rifle infantry - Pig Iron Assault Troopers mounted in modified BTR's and supported by four T-80's and T-90's)
Looking forward to seeing what's coming next!
See, for me these models don't look bad by any means, but the design points like the segmented armour plates is too generic. Much like the other popular model sci-fi model producers that aren't GW, they aren't bad, but don't seem to stand out from the crowd either. This I think is because each tends to borrow the same nice design ideas which, over time, have become overused. Best I think would be to work out what designs of armour haven't been picked as the emphasis point in other mainstream models (i.e. shoulder pads have been- did GW popularise this?). Overall, nothing to really complain about, but nor anything which jumps out as unique or having that 'wow factor'. However- the one thing which I'm not a fan of is the gun design- with the three slits on the sides and blocky design, I honestly thought they were actual Tau guns for a second.
I guess what I'm saying is- what can the model designers do to make their models distinctive for this game? I like to look at a model and instantly recognise it as belonging to the design aesthetic of a company. I can do that with GW, and with Privateer Press, for example. (for example, compare the Karist Tempest to Mantic's Enforcers for what I mean about lack of distinctiveness).
As for rules- absolutely great that the intentions seems to be take all the best bits of other game systems. I hope that with the experience in the development team Maelstrom's Edge should shape up to have a cracking rule set.
Thanks for all the feedback, guys. Sorry there are elements of the models you're not crazy about, but it is good to hear that there are some things you do like about them.
What I will say is that, while these models do in many ways represent the 'core' of each faction, that kind of by necessity means they're also the least exciting (compartiively speaking). So when we finally are able to show you the rest of what we have planned, I think putting them together as a whole range will give you a clear picture about the design aesthetics of each faction, and you may (hopefully) even find yourself forgetting/forgiving some of the elements that are bothering you now when you see thaf full picture.
For example, some people don't care for the blocky/angular feel of the Contractor's shoulder pads. But I personally feel that when you see them arrayed on the table with all the drones (which are also naturally angular), those shoulder pads actually help to connect them to the force as a cohesive aesthetic. Of cousre, personal taste varies, so it may not work that way for you, but there is very much a design aesthetic for each faction that is distinct and will become more apparent the more models for each of the factions we produce.
Thanks for all the feedback, guys. Sorry there are elements of the models you're not crazy about, but it is good to hear that there are some things you do like about them.
What I will say is that, while these models do in many ways represent the 'core' of each faction, that kind of by necessity means they're also the least exciting (compartiively speaking). So when we finally are able to show you the rest of what we have planned, I think putting them together as a whole range will give you a clear picture about the design aesthetics of each faction, and you may (hopefully) even find yourself forgetting/forgiving some of the elements that are bothering you now when you see thaf full picture.
For example, some people don't care for the blocky/angular feel of the Contractor's shoulder pads. But I personally feel that when you see them arrayed on the table with all the drones (which are also naturally angular), those shoulder pads actually help to connect them to the force as a cohesive aesthetic. Of cousre, personal taste varies, so it may not work that way for you, but there is very much a design aesthetic for each faction that is distinct and will become more apparent the more models for each of the factions we produce.
Awesome. If the game is good, I can handle "not my favorite" models versus the other way around. I do look forward to the other items. And I notice that usually any games first run of models are not the same quality as someone else's 10+ year release. A lot of the other companies had way uglier models and in metal. I'd buy these guys any day over Nyss Hunters (not a dig on your stuff), but I did buy Nyss Hunters because they are a great unit.
For game first folks, just concerned that the pieces are functional.
Wow, this is a very exciting bit of news. Really impressed that the team has been able to reveal a fully formed project rather than something that might happen in a few years.
I look forward to seeing more different models, mainly the character minis and 'heavy' stuff.
One minor concern is with the setting, from what i've read in the quick synopsis there's a rather large plot hole i can see.
The idea of the expanding Malestrom consuming the galaxy from the inside is an evocative one but also highly problematic from a physics standpoint, especially in this 'Edge' region. If the Maelstrom expands outward at a sublight speed slow enough to be appreciable at an interplanetary level this phenomenom would be trivial (at least to mortal, darwinian creatures), taking millions of years to even move between two proximal stars (for example the 4.2 light years between Sol and it's closest neighbour).
Congrats to the Dakka team, looks like a lot of hard work went into this.
I've never played Full Spectrum Warrior but it sounds like it has similar mechanics to the Brother's in Arms series which would make a good table top game.
Perkustin wrote: If the Maelstrom expands outward at a sublight speed slow enough to be appreciable at an interplanetary level this phenomenom would be trivial (at least to mortal, darwinian creatures), taking millions of years to even move between two proximal stars (for example the 4.2 light years between Sol and it's closest neighbour).
It's sped up by expanding through the cybel network.
Here are some scale comparison pictures. The first image is Dreamforge Eisenkern, Maelstrom's Edge Epirian Contractor, 40k Imperial Guard, Zombicide survivor, 40k Space Marine, Maelstrom's Edge Karist Tempest, Lego construction worker, Karist Trooper, Mantic Deadzone Orx.
What image do you think would be most appropriate to display on the main kickstarter page as a scale reference?
The colour scheme of the red Karist Tempest works very well. There's something to be said too for the idea of 'basic' infantry being deliberately less exciting than the more specialised units. If your line troopers look as fancy as the elite stuff, then the elites begin to look that little less special.
Awesome, this is exactly what I wanted to see- a nice scale shot of the minis!
I do have to say that, although I agree with some of the complaints leveled against the Epicurians, I find that they fit in well opposed to the Karists. They seem to be everything the Karists aren't in terms of models. I'm also very excited to see how they stand next to the robots- THAT I think its going to have the biggest effect on the opinions of that faction.
Perkustin wrote: Wow, this is a very exciting bit of news. Really impressed that the team has been able to reveal a fully formed project rather than something that might happen in a few years.
I look forward to seeing more different models, mainly the character minis and 'heavy' stuff.
One minor concern is with the setting, from what i've read in the quick synopsis there's a rather large plot hole i can see.
The idea of the expanding Malestrom consuming the galaxy from the inside is an evocative one but also highly problematic from a physics standpoint, especially in this 'Edge' region. If the Maelstrom expands outward at a sublight speed slow enough to be appreciable at an interplanetary level this phenomenom would be trivial (at least to mortal, darwinian creatures), taking millions of years to even move between two proximal stars (for example the 4.2 light years between Sol and it's closest neighbour).
Yep, trust me, we got that covered! Some of the people on our team are smart people with big degrees in smart science-type stuff (not me, if you can't tell), and there is totally a logical scientific explanation for it all (as insaniak has already hinted at).
They'll be posting an article soon with some more details about how the Maelstrom functions for people to sink their teeth into.
Thanks for all the feedback, guys. Sorry there are elements of the models you're not crazy about, but it is good to hear that there are some things you do like about them.
What I will say is that, while these models do in many ways represent the 'core' of each faction, that kind of by necessity means they're also the least exciting (compartiively speaking). So when we finally are able to show you the rest of what we have planned, I think putting them together as a whole range will give you a clear picture about the design aesthetics of each faction, and you may (hopefully) even find yourself forgetting/forgiving some of the elements that are bothering you now when you see thaf full picture.
For example, some people don't care for the blocky/angular feel of the Contractor's shoulder pads. But I personally feel that when you see them arrayed on the table with all the drones (which are also naturally angular), those shoulder pads actually help to connect them to the force as a cohesive aesthetic. Of cousre, personal taste varies, so it may not work that way for you, but there is very much a design aesthetic for each faction that is distinct and will become more apparent the more models for each of the factions we produce.
No, I think it's fair to judge the entirety of a line off of one model.
Yay, humans more in proportion! Chaps may take longer to get used too. I guess the concept is a hevey over layer? Ballistic cloth? But then it does not guard the crown jewels though
Is it me or do yours make the guardsman look like he ate all the rations?
Very nice models, you just answered a potential question.
I think seeing your models next to the regular old GW models many of us are used to seeing really puts the level of detail there into perspective. Although, I also assume you can't use those pictures on your kickstarter page at all. Regardless, I think the mini's look good.
Honestly, I don't mind the chaps or the shoulder pads on the Epirians at all. My assumption is that, if you're a contractor rather than regular military, you don't get issued uniforms that are fitted to you in any way. You're getting the one size fits all ill fitting piece of crap created by the lowest bidding manufacturer that you get to throw on over your work clothes. And that aesthetic is preety much exactly what those look like, so in my mind, they look like what I expect. Same thought process that was used to show the 80's style manual technology in the spaceships in the Alien film honestly. A mining ship wouldn't look like a state of the art overwhelmingly expensive luxury ship built to shuttle a future corporation CEO around. I also think those shoulders are really no bigger than what my old football pads used to look like, even if the arms are proportionally large as well. Heck, I wish my arms actually were that big.
I think the Karist look great period though. I just really like them and I also wondered if you could tell us anything about their paint schemes. I mean will they all generally use the same schemes across the whole army, or would they likely have any differently painted factions, maybe indicative of a specific leader or loyalty within the overall command structure?
Will there be any contractors designed with different body types at some point? I ask only because as non-professional military units, I could easily see using one with a body that was really skinny, or a dude that was somewhat overweight as well. That might be a fun project to add in using greenstuff. I'm very okay with having some variety in that unit versus the more professional military fighting units they'll be seen next too.
... then for the most part the owning player gets to choose which model in the unit gets removed as a casaulty (representing other models in the unit being able to pick up special weapons, etc, dropped by their dying compatriats).
Haha, huzzah for a game where dead people don't get dibs.
Solider: *checking the pulse of a fellow soldier* "Jim's dead. Damn... he had the special weapon. Should I grab it? We're being torn to pieces out here"
Unit leader: "No Ivan, why would you even ask that? Jim called dibs. He had line of sight to the weapon at the time, he called it within the 10 minute window of its expected use. We respect dibs. What is our unit motto? Say it."
Soldier: *hesitation*
Unit leader: "SAY IT. That's an order, private!"
Soldier *sighs*: "Dibs unto death... and beyond."
On the matter of Epirians, I really didn't like them, they were just generic guys, and I mean, that's what guard are for, right?
Then I saw them the next day. They were kind of okay, I guess. Still nothing particularly special.
Then I saw them the next day. This was the day we were shown the picture of them in a group. These guys were really not special, I mean really not special. I started to find that special.
Then I saw them the next day. I started to love them. They were spectacularly not special. So distinctly not special that I came to truly admire that.
So many times I've been playing a game wanting that more human touch. I've always wanted to play a game set in a city where you have civilians and police fighting off an unexpected invasion, while the military desperately tries to push back the enemy long enough to send some reinforcements to help evacuate.
These guys are just that. They are so basic, so human, that they look the perfect part of canon fodder. They look how I imagine a poorly outfitted security force would look. Painted up a little differently, I think they could look the part of the police.
Now I just need some models of fleeing civilians...
I really liked the novel excerpt from the first book, when I get some money, I will buy them. Also love the Karist basic troop's helmet. Not too fussed on the Karist heavy guys.
I also think that showing your Epirians in some run-down terrain would really highlight their contractor nature. As a final note, seeing your models in natural light and next to other figures from other ranges has done wonders for me. When you're looking a studio shots, you kind of expect brilliance and are a little desensitised to just how crisp and nice they are. Having your models in natural light makes me feel like they've not been touched up after the fact (not that I'm implying you guys would do that!), it highlights the wonderful job winterdyne has done and just makes them seem real. When I see well painted figures in real life I can't help but admire them, even Orks and Space Marines, and I hate Orks and Space Marines.
Showing us some 'combat shots' of your models pitted against each other on a nicely done table would be brilliant in my opinion, but I also appreciate that this might already be on the cards, but with your strategic release schedule that these shots might not have come around yet
All the best,
Ak
Edited to remove typo that do not befit a native English speaker
Automatically Appended Next Post: Example of Police scheme that I believe would look good on Epirians:
jhe90 wrote: Yay, humans more in proportion! Chaps may take longer to get used too. I guess the concept is a hevey over layer? Ballistic cloth? But then it does not guard the crown jewels though .
I don't know if there's been an 'official' explanation of the chaps, but my take on it was that they weren't supposed to be combat armour, but simply an extra layer of protection against the sorts of environmental conditions that these guys are generally working in.
Remember that they're not hardcore military units. They're essentially tradesmen with military training, operating on some fairly ugly planets. The planet the starter set (and the first novel) focuses on is a fairly barren world that's slowly being terraformed. So the chaps and jackets would just be a little extra protection against the elements.
the contractors are really not my thing, but as they said in the thread as a whole force they will "blend in". Hope we see concepts for other armies spoiled through the kick starter also. anxious to see what else is in store.
Doug was referencing WarZone Bauhaus. I'd link a pic but it's been made clear that doing so would not be welcome, so you'll have to google it.
I actually like those particular figures (Karist Troopers) the best of the three and could even see buying some of them.
The Karist Tempests don't do much for me, entirely aside from the wrist issue. They just look like too much like WH Chaos Warriors (especially the pauldrons, knees, etc) to me. I do like the touches on the rear, but the front/side don't do much for me.
The Epirians (I keep reading it as "Epicurians") just look awful to my eye. Doug broke it down very well - and shoulder pads but no helmets doesn't make any kind of sense for military or construction - but beyond that they're just poorly designed. I'm sure that all of those bothersome elements could be made to look like a good model (rule of cool and all that), but it just hasn't happened here.
Funny.. just writing this opinion/design feedback post that I'd have no problem posting anywhere else on Dakka makes me wonder if I'll be getting piled on or even moderated away for a couple of days.
Only two major problems with the design so far. Both of which I can fix with a little green stuff.
The tempest's wrist. *shudders*
and the act the contractors' shoulder pads and nee pads are, as has been pointed out, held up by the same magic that orks guns use. unless they're glued to the fabric, which would be ridiculously stupid.
Now, I'm being blunt with that. And in saying all of that, I have high hopes for this and the tempest is my favourite model you've shown.
Peace.
jhe90 wrote: Yay, humans more in proportion! Chaps may take longer to get used too. I guess the concept is a hevey over layer? Ballistic cloth? But then it does not guard the crown jewels though .
I don't know if there's been an 'official' explanation of the chaps, but my take on it was that they weren't supposed to be combat armour, but simply an extra layer of protection against the sorts of environmental conditions that these guys are generally working in.
Remember that they're not hardcore military units. They're essentially tradesmen with military training, operating on some fairly ugly planets. The planet the starter set (and the first novel) focuses on is a fairly barren world that's slowly being terraformed. So the chaps and jackets would just be a little extra protection against the elements.
That's right - the Contractors are not the elite fighters of the Epirian Foundation - heavy fighting is done by the robots and the trained soldiers from SecDef, the Foundation's military arm. Obviously models are a very subjective thing and we know that not everyone's going to like everything we've done (and you're perfectly entitled to voice that opinion!) Hopefully the text below from the fluff section on Contractors from the rulebook will give people a better idea of the thinking behind the way we designed the models.
Although the Foundation is famous for its robotic units, Contractors are a common sight in nearly all military and security endeavours and typically make up around half of an expeditionary force or security team. In addition to their value as fighters, Contractors are also expected to contribute to the maintenance of Epirian robots and facilities, and the lines between engineer and soldier are frequently blurred. It is just as common to see a Contractor with a spanner in their hand as it is to see them crouched behind a barricade with a rifle.
Contractors consist of wide range of personalities and origins, from rugged individuals eager to seek adventure, to average colonists seeking steady work. Whatever their backstories, enlisting as a Contractor means a life isolated from the masses and lacking access to all the comforts and technologies the Epirian Foundation has to offer. The Foundation is generous to those who volunteer to join its ranks and Contractors and their families get first priority for the colonization of new worlds or, increasingly in these troubled times, berths on evacuation ships.
Originally devised as a militarised security group for protection of Epirian interests, Contractors used to be viewed as little more than simple security and maintenance teams. However, as the Maelstrom has forced a new reality for all living things, Contractors are often found doing some of the hardest work the spiral arm has to offer - front-line military service on worlds which are often about to be destroyed by the Maelstrom, leading attacks on occupied positions with valuable resources, and braving the harsh conditions of space and newly discovered planets. Just as often, they are defending Epirian assets like giant terraforming industrial rigs, orbiting cybel refineries or local civilian populations from vicious and desperate attacks by both sworn enemies and desperate refugees.
In peaceful times, Contractors are also expected to run the giant machines that terraform barren worlds, and even in war they possess more technical expertise than a traditional soldier. The Epirian army relies on its robotic army for heavy fighting, and as well as supporting the drones in combat, Contractors are also trained in battlefield repair, patching up robots damaged by enemy fire.
Most Contractors are equipped with Maglock assault rifles, ruggedly built guns that are easily repaired and still able to fire in the harshest of conditions. Vacuum, desert, swamp or snow, the trooper knows that their rifle will remain functional when it is needed most. Their armour is often makeshift and frequently little more than the safety clothing they wear for maintenance work. Contractors also carry basic computer packs and repair kits enabling them to interact with the Foundation’s robots.
There are visible straps on the model on the back of the leg and under the arm for the kneepads and shoulderpads so they are at least partially functional
the shrouded lord wrote: and the act the contractors' shoulder pads and nee pads are, as has been pointed out, held up by the same magic that orks guns use. unless they're glued to the fabric, which would be ridiculously stupid. .
The kneepads have a strap running around the back of the knee. Not the best design, but then corporate uniform decisions aren't always based on what's best when what it costs might potentially be a factor...
As for the shoulder pads, they could conceivably be attached on the inside top edge to the webbing harness running up over the shoulder.
Edit - Also, what Lego said I haven't seen the Epirians in the 'flesh', but I'm happy to take his word for it that there are straps on the shoulders as well that just aren't visible in the pics shown so far.
Imo, the shoulder/knee pads look infinitely better in that green than they do in the metal colouring. It made a huge difference to my eye, and took them from looking a little goofy to looking fine.
To me it's the square cap that really put the Contractors over the top. Aside from the fact that they should be wearing helmets, the cap really reinforces the blockyness of their silhouette and makes them look so LEGO-ish. Look at the sergeant without the cap, he looks much better than the rest of them, but still has the same shoulderpads people have been lamenting. I really think rounded helmets would make them much more appealing.
Definitely agree that the Contractors look better with the alternative paint-scheme, and the Karists just look awesome all around!
I will say that, in this day and age with the levels of digital photography, in some what we are seeing on screen is not a 'true' representation of how most people will see them - at arms length for painting, or further on a tabletop. This is why stuff like IG Cadians and even the classic plastic Space Marine look gak when you see them full-screen in 1280x1040 resolution - in reality you aren't holding the miniature 2cm from your eye and able to view them with crystal definition, and I don't think its a fair measure of the miniature. Not everything needs (or can be) Mierce/Corvus Belli/Dark Age in terms of level of details, and arguably it's wasted anyway when it gets to tabletop play and the painting ability of a majority of players.
I haven't seen these miniatures in person yet, but I'm sure my thoughts are going to be confirmed when I (hopefully!) see them in a week's time at Salute.
I don't think anyone thus far has been unfair in their criticisms of the models. A little blunt, mayhaps, but Spiral Arm's people have been around the Internet long enough to know that you need to have your big boy/girl pants on when you present something to the world because not everyone is going to like it.
I'm also not sure that the thread is being heavily censored even if it's being heavily moderated. That increased moderation is not an attempt at mind-control by the mods, it's just an outgrowth of how many are here for obvious reasons. Stereotypically put, it's kind of like if you get pulled for speeding near a Dunkin Donuts; it's not because those roads are monitored as known traffic hazards that they're trying to control, it's more that the police just happened to be there to see it. So...welcome to Dakka Donuts.
Back on the topic proper, those new pictures look very nice. The Karists, wrists aside, look quite good and I like the color schemes the artist(s) chose which really show how varied the look can get while being the same models. I'd be interested to see the Contractors in a more varied color scheme as well; the two shown really aren't THAT dramatically different to my eye, or perhaps the models force anything but extreme contrast to look same-y.
One thing I don't particularly like on the Contractor models is the fist hand and how it's kind of a "blah" part that dominates a good quarter of the model. I understand the tooling requirements and when they were designed is probably the main factor there, but those parts leap out as being identical and reminds me of the old 2nd Ed. Space Marines. I know you guys said they were among the first models and you've gotten better since then, and the Karists certainly say you're correct, but I think the Contractors are a bit jarring in comparison as a result. When I see the group together those arms jump out because it's an easily recognized pattern while the Karists, also assembled from parts that are clearly identical between the pictures, do not because of the subtle differences in posing. Fist arm is going to be fist arm though, or at leas that's how it appears in the pictures thus far.
Hopefully when the KS launches the Epirians will have more dynamic models shown, because those Enclave troopers do look nice.
The kneepads are fine imo but I just can't see any reason for them to have shoulder pads other than, "look, it's a sci-fi model and all sci-fi models must has the shoulder pads" because apparently sci-fi never advanced beyond the 80's in a fashion sense. Naw, none of these guys will ever need to reach the top shelf to get something. Of the models, only the Karist Elites have the segmented shoulder pads that could, could allow for more mobility and range of motion.
The contractors guns are just too blocky and big to be useful unless they're made from some super light alloy. I can't imagine actually using one and with no straps in evidence, how the heck do they carry them around all day? The sight is so wide/tall it would actually block your view of what you're aiming at.
I agree with Judgedoug's take on the wrist issue but since it's a HIPS kit, I'm sure 5 seconds with a file will sort it out; a favor that a Mantic kit never bestowed upon me.
-All that said, I do like the models overall and I'm not getting a Bauhaus vibe. I think that Winterdyne's done a usual fantastic job on the paint and extreme kudos for providing hi-res photos of actual production models; something established companies like Mantic (heh. Judgedoug!) seem completely incapable/unwilling to do, ever.
I should chime in to say that winterdyne is not the only painter - we've used three different studios and the most recent images show work from all three. Lil'legend and Golem are the other two. All the painting services have been really good.
Mymearan wrote: To me it's the square cap that really put the Contractors over the top. Aside from the fact that they should be wearing helmets, the cap really reinforces the blockyness of their silhouette and makes them look so LEGO-ish. Look at the sergeant without the cap, he looks much better than the rest of them, but still has the same shoulderpads people have been lamenting. I really think rounded helmets would make them much more appealing.
You'll see why we went with the square hats when you put the Contractors up with the rest of the army, it makes them fit in really well.
Man, that guy looks killer! Not sure if I could pull off this scheme, but I really love it. Makes them look a bit sinister, which given their background I think is a very good thing.
Edit: Do the gun barrels come "pre drilled" like that? That would seemingly imply a sliding pin in the mold, if so...
Man, that guy looks killer! Not sure if I could pull off this scheme, but I really love it. Makes them look a bit sinister, which given their background I think is a very good thing.
Does this model shout "Deadpool Army" to anyone other then myself?
Edit: or Deathstroke, whichever your fancy takes you.
Stormphoenix wrote: You'll see why we went with the square hats when you put the Contractors up with the rest of the army, it makes them fit in really well.
Why do people keep saying things like this as if it's a good thing? "You know those square hats you hate? Well expect to see a whole lot more like them in the rest of the army!"
Stormphoenix wrote: You'll see why we went with the square hats when you put the Contractors up with the rest of the army, it makes them fit in really well.
Why do people keep saying things like this as if it's a good thing? "You know those square hats you hate? Well expect to see a whole lot more like them in the rest of the army!"
Also, as has been mentioned more then once, these guys aren't soldiers. They're workers who've been taught how to shoot straight.
They're not supposed to be fully armed and armoured.
"Here's a gun. Go join your shift crew and defend this factory from those religious nutters. You might get hazard pay if you survive."
Why do people keep saying things like this as if it's a good thing? "You know those square hats you hate? Well expect to see a whole lot more like them in the rest of the army!"
Stormphoenix wrote: You'll see why we went with the square hats when you put the Contractors up with the rest of the army, it makes them fit in really well.
Why do people keep saying things like this as if it's a good thing? "You know those square hats you hate? Well expect to see a whole lot more like them in the rest of the army!"
Or: there will be spider drones, who are blocky robots, and hunter drones, who are blocky robots. All together they will look like one force and you will be able to look at a model that is blocky and know it belongs to that army the same way you can look at a model covered in skulls and know it's imperial.
Here are some scale comparison pictures. The first image is Dreamforge Eisenkern, Maelstrom's Edge Epirian Contractor, 40k Imperial Guard, Zombicide survivor, 40k Space Marine, Maelstrom's Edge Karist Tempest, Lego construction worker, Karist Trooper, Mantic Deadzone Orx.
What image do you think would be most appropriate to display on the main kickstarter page as a scale reference?
Thank you so much for including the Lego minifig. This made my day.
I enjoy the appearance of the Epirian contractors en masse. They look like real enough people for my tastes. Also, I like the lower level Karist troopers over the tempests-- they're less broken-wristy like their tempest comrades, but more importantly because the quantity of armor they wear looks more "realistic"-- not a gakton of ceramite like a space marine, but still looking protective.
although I have a feeling lego won't be spilling those beans until Salute!
so I can't wait to see what he's had created since then!
That was so much better than expected. You guys really made a top notch universe, on the level of infinity even, & I've only seen a glimpse. There's no way I'm not going in on the kick-starter if I can scrounge up the money. Really looking forward to more background!
sorry!
