I love short stories in general, so very nice of you guys to release one for people to dip their toes in! I bought the novels but probably won't get time to do them justice for a while, so this is perfect
Out of curiosity, will the Epirians be compatible with GW, Mad Robot or Victoria Miniatures bits? I'm assuming that the figures were designed with customization in mind.
Bob, we're working on ways to get the paperbacks out to those who want them but it takes a bit of time to ensure we can send it reliably to everybody. More detail soon, I promise!
Bob, we're working on ways to get the paperbacks out to those who want them but it takes a bit of time to ensure we can send it reliably to everybody. More detail soon, I promise!
The concept work is great to see and the shipyard was a good read (and short enough to not give me headaches)
Thanks for giving us an update on the paperbacks, I am champing at the bit to get at copies.
I like the mech designs, I'll be looking into getting some of those at retail regardless of what happens with my backing status and whether or not they get added to the main pledge or not.
Like the Epirian gun tech, magnetic acceleration which allows for caseless bullets and for the Epirians to bring MOAR ammo Plus the interchangeable ammo between pistols, rifles, and some drone armaments.
I also liked the station-safe ammo they used in the second novel, guns are somehow networked and detonate the rounds before they impact the hull so no penetrations. And if you shoot a person? Same thing as a bolter round
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Thank you, darrkespur. I hope the hunter robot unlocks soon. I think he will really bring some more pledges in.
Oh yes, I really agree with Bob. Having something like that Hunter showing up as a stretch goal will really drive some pledges. Right now we have the terrain sprue, but since it's separately purchasable, I don't think there is as much of a drive.
Drop in that hunter and things will start moving pretty fast!
It'll be interesting to see how that works in practice. I infer, and thus could be wrong about, that all items they have planned will show up in some form or another and will be purchase-able as add-ons even if they're not a formal stretch goal. What the stretch goals are "really" for is how much ends up in the core box "for free" versus how much is add-on only.
It could lead to this interesting scenario where lego posts the Hunter for $15 at the appointed hour. Bob decides he likes that design enough to up his pledge. A week or so later towards the end of the campaign, a stretch goal is hit to include a Hunter in the core box. Bob, now insanely bitter about his inability to consume narrative from the inscribed carcass of arboreal lifeforms, drops the $15 from his pledge because he doesn't see anything else to spend it on. This cycle repeats itself for number X of backers, and the funding moves backwards a noticeable amount, potentially below the stretch goal.
Obviously that's a transient sort of issue that's only a "problem" right at the very end where it'd likely be overshadowed by the "OMG it's almost closed!" rush. I'm also sure the guys have thought that scenario through already, but I'm curious to see it in action. Still plenty of time left before we have to worry about Bitter Bob and the Add-on of Doom though.
I was thinking about that too. Addons in this case fuel stretch goal completion, but the stretch goals mitigate the need for the add-on costs. At least for some.
Maybe not as much backsliding as bottlenecking once a certain point is reached.
Robotech had alot of goals like that which initially unlocked as add ons and later a separate goal for a free amount. That was a very high pledge total project though with a much faster rise and lots of subsequently lots of problems that are still ongoing.
warboss wrote: Robotech had alot of goals like that which initially unlocked as add ons and later a separate goal for a free amount. That was a very high pledge total project though with a much faster rise and lots of subsequently lots of problems that are still ongoing.
Yeah, overstetching to draw in pledges seems to be a really common theme with a lot of Kickstarters. In that regard, I think pledgers for MEdge will be very satisfied with the turnaround time. However, I do think a couple of exciting goals that can only be attained by hitting stretch goals (that aren't too far apart, mind you) will help bring in more funding.
Thanks for putting out the full body pics of the Hunter, guys. I love it. And, I want several. Too bad it won't actually be articulated though. I'm hoping that it'll be designed to allow modelers to easily adjust the posing so that they aren't all static.
Also, that Karist with the hood firing the psitol in that piece of artwork, what is he? Will we be seeing a figure of that guy? The Karist artwork really makes them look cool and has got me fired up to build some.
Yes, for not having his dead trees on the way by the end of the campaign. The alliteration just worked in this case.
OT: It DID give me an idea for a dice and card game though. Push-your-luck game based on a theme of crowd-funding campaigns. More people buying in means more stuff, but a higher chance that something goes wrong (and something can always go wrong regardless of size). Person who gets the most return after a certain number of rounds wins! Advanced rules for selling your stuff on and having to dodge the spouse for added fun!
I would say that they will need to be VERY careful about how clearly they show the size of the hunter if they have to rely on art/prototypes in islolation
people will assume its as big as X (insert whatever mini they want to counts-as) and will then get cross when it's too big or too small
lots of measurements, lots of pictures alongside existing known minis etc
Barzam wrote: Thanks for putting out the full body pics of the Hunter, guys. Too bad it won't actually be articulated though.
Not articulated? You dont know how awesome our tooling is yet
The hunter has:
- ball joints on the hips
- 180 degree joints on the feet
- partial ball joints on the shoulders (easily extended)
- 80 degree joints at the elbows
- rotatable hand
- 3-5 alternate guns depending how you count it
- 2 alternate rocket pods
The hunter is extremely pose able, though we do seem to keep assembling it the same way. You can have it crushing stuff underfoot which at the end of the day is all we really want from big robots.
It is fully sliding core across three (tiny) sprues as well, so no seams on any limbs - all limbs are single parts (up to the joints) with sockets in all the right places.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yes, but will the campaign make it that far without a boost?
We're still 30+ days out on this one, it is very common to see this sort of slowdown, if you want to call it that. Lots of people are waiting to see what happens next, and many also don't really understand how pledging works, so they wait till the last second to pledge to make sure they get a good deal. The kickstarter has already hit one and a half times its goal, and already gotten a stretch goal, so Id say its safe to say we'll see it pick up again toward the last two weeks or so.
The way its tracking, I'm expecting 60-80k, maybe more depending on how soon the Hunter and adult Angel appear, as I imagine they'll be the two big hits. I would also expect the numbers to go up if the drones are available separately, just due to the large demand people have for plastic Sci fi drones.
It takes about 2 years to create a plastic model from start to finish, so yes they are set in stone. Just doing something as simple as adding a second copy of a part is a (best case) 3 month delay and is only possible if the tool has not yet been cut.
Barzam wrote: Thanks for putting out the full body pics of the Hunter, guys. Too bad it won't actually be articulated though.
Not articulated? You dont know how awesome our tooling is yet
The hunter has:
- ball joints on the hips
- 180 degree joints on the feet
- partial ball joints on the shoulders (easily extended)
- 80 degree joints at the elbows
- rotatable hand
- 3-5 alternate guns depending how you count it
- 2 alternate rocket pods
The hunter is extremely pose able, though we do seem to keep assembling it the same way. You can have it crushing stuff underfoot which at the end of the day is all we really want from big robots.
It's like heaven - Gundam-style model kits in a Wargame *giggles happily*
We had one at Salute, but I'd love to see something made by a fan if that is not too much trouble? New stuff is being shown tomorrow so you might want to wait until then!
legoburner wrote: We had one at Salute, but I'd love to see something made by a fan if that is not too much trouble? New stuff is being shown tomorrow so you might want to wait until then!
It's odd that no one posted pics of it at the booth. I saw a couple of pics of the booth and didn't see it there (although they weren't the highest res nor zoomed in admittedly). Was it a behind the curtain insider only thing?
We'll have plenty more about the Hunter tomorrow, but today's update is a bit more about the novels - some of you will probably have read the excerpt I posted on my website a few weeks ago, but if you haven't it's on the Kickstarter page now too.
Indeed; a sliding core makes what's ordinarily a 2 part mould into more. Rather than thinking of it as allowing undercuts, think of it as having multiple 2-part alignments on the one piece, allowing detail to be placed (for example) both on front, back and sides of a single piece component.
Out of curiosity, is the KS generally being updated during UK business hours or US? I'm just wondering what time to expect the updates (especially the hunter one).
warboss wrote: Out of curiosity, is the KS generally being updated during UK business hours or US? I'm just wondering what time to expect the updates (especially the hunter one).
UK time. All the update stuff is funneled through Legoburner to post (and he's in the UK).
Looong time reader, this game prompted me to sign up. I think it's absolutely fantastic what you are doing and am more than a little surprised at some of the nitpicking going on.
Thank you for making the Kickstarter last as long as you have, I would have no chance to jump in if it had only been 30 days. And thank you for getting the project to such a completed state before showing it to the world, makes a nice, refreshing change (I will never again back a project based on CG renders - disappointed every time). This Kickstarter is more professionally presented than the vast majority that come from established companies.
Thanks, your kind words are really strong motivators. We are really glad when we see people confirm our beliefs and gaming preferences and look forward to delivering a game which surpasses expectations and a universe which grows into a massively deep and broad IP
warboss wrote: Out of curiosity, is the KS generally being updated during UK business hours or US? I'm just wondering what time to expect the updates (especially the hunter one).
UK time. All the update stuff is funneled through Legoburner to post (and he's in the UK).
Do you and Lego look up at the sky sometimes and Somewhere Out There?
Excited about tomorrow or later or whenever these time zones intersect.
Lost Egg wrote: Whoa...it sounds pretty blooming impressive. I look forward to inspecting the sprues and components in detail...in December...damn
It's one of those things that isn't immediately impressive until you think about it for a bit, as you tend to be looking at the model 'as designed'. The usual workaround for a 2 part mould is to split a component in two that requires detail or recesses on perpendicular axes; with the sliding core method you don't need to do that. For example, the Angel Minnows are 3-part models (pairs of wings that slot into the body on either side). With a 2 part method, you'd either get some nasty flats to have to align parts on and/or lose some detail to 'flats' and/or have to split the body up (separate 'face'). No need for that here, assembly becomes very simple and detail is preserved without kludging on all the wing surface (which on a couple of them is basically a hemisphere).
It was really only after building and looking at the Minnows for a while I realised 'damn, they're pretty complex, and it really went together easily'.
That's what makes it impressive I think; not so much 'extra detail' compared to other kits, but a very significant reduction in the number of needed parts to get that detail, and thus the effort involved in building and cleaning up for painting.
I almost cringe at the thought of piling even theoretical work on you guys at SAS, but in light of the "Year of the Space Game", I feel compelled ....
Has there been any thought to the potential of a space game tied in to MEdge? I realize this would likely be years out unless you guys managed to succeed beyond the wildest dreams of avarice, but the appearance of Hawk's DFC made me wonder. I like the thought of the smaller model count game that MEdge provides, but I'm getting the itch for a space game again too ...
What little rules ideas we've gotten from the DFC posts/videos provided some interesting theories due to the integration with the DZC concept, and it occurred to me that a MEdge space based game could work along similar theories. Maelstrom effects, objectives around making it to the outgoing cybel tunnels, or recovering people from the surface or what have you could be interesting.
Of course, I'll completely understand if the answer is "we don't want to be distracted, come back in a couple years" ...
I think that would be a horrible idea at this juncture. I don't want SAS to stand for Swiftly Abandoned Support which is what happens when you count your chickens before they hatch ala the protypical Spartan Games example. They need to flesh out THIS game with more factions before they listen to folks clamoring for something else.
I could see that working, some ways down the line of course. It would be interesting to see a game working with smaller ships. War Rocket by Hydra Miniatures is very good and could work as a good proxy till then though the ships are retro so you'd need to find alternatives (em4 do some plastic ships); the game play is fast and fun.
YouKnowsIt wrote: Looong time reader, this game prompted me to sign up. I think it's absolutely fantastic what you are doing and am more than a little surprised at some of the nitpicking going on.
Thank you for making the Kickstarter last as long as you have, I would have no chance to jump in if it had only been 30 days. And thank you for getting the project to such a completed state before showing it to the world, makes a nice, refreshing change (I will never again back a project based on CG renders - disappointed every time). This Kickstarter is more professionally presented than the vast majority that come from established companies.
The "nitpicking" I've seen is honest criticism, same as any game gets (and should get) here on Dakka... Why would you be surprised?
Is it bad (or maybe sad) that I have the day off and other than fix a fence and paint a bit of dropzone.... waiting for this update is pretty much my days plan?
Wont be for at least 5 hours at minimum as there are still quite a few image assets to update
On spaceship and other spinoff games, while they are things we'd love to play with in many years time, our absolute focus is on Maelstrom's Edge at squad-based skirmish / 28mm scale. We dont have the manpower to explore other games without sacrificing quality in our main game so wont be doing so for a long time.
legoburner wrote: ... our absolute focus is on Maelstrom's Edge at squad-based skirmish / 28mm scale. We dont have the manpower to explore other games without sacrificing quality in our main game so wont be doing so for a long time.
And this is why Medge is likely to end up being a great game with lots of happy KS backers in Dec!
legoburner wrote: Wont be for at least 5 hours at minimum as there are still quite a few image assets to update
On spaceship and other spinoff games, while they are things we'd love to play with in many years time, our absolute focus is on Maelstrom's Edge at squad-based skirmish / 28mm scale. We dont have the manpower to explore other games without sacrificing quality in our main game so wont be doing so for a long time.
legoburner wrote: Wont be for at least 5 hours at minimum as there are still quite a few image assets to update
On spaceship and other spinoff games, while they are things we'd love to play with in many years time, our absolute focus is on Maelstrom's Edge at squad-based skirmish / 28mm scale. We dont have the manpower to explore other games without sacrificing quality in our main game so wont be doing so for a long time.
legoburner wrote: Wont be for at least 5 hours at minimum as there are still quite a few image assets to update
On spaceship and other spinoff games, while they are things we'd love to play with in many years time, our absolute focus is on Maelstrom's Edge at squad-based skirmish / 28mm scale. We dont have the manpower to explore other games without sacrificing quality in our main game so wont be doing so for a long time.
Okay. It's almost 5 hours now.
Now?
How about now?
Totally appropriate reference for this:
Spoiler:
Listen, soon I will be surrounded by teenagers who all of a sudden want to
pass a class they didn't care about until right before graduation. I need a little
something in my life.
Sad, but true.
Lego, if you feel the need to delay things by, say, 2 hours from now, that
would be great. I will then be free again to gorge my geek upon the sight
of new announcements. I'm hoping for pics, videos are optional unless I'm
actually at home where I can watch them, and rules updates.
legoburner wrote: Wont be for at least 5 hours at minimum as there are still quite a few image assets to update
On spaceship and other spinoff games, while they are things we'd love to play with in many years time, our absolute focus is on Maelstrom's Edge at squad-based skirmish / 28mm scale. We dont have the manpower to explore other games without sacrificing quality in our main game so wont be doing so for a long time.
That's pretty much what I expected to hear ... While some part of me is of course sad, I think in the long run it'll be far better for the skirmish game AND any subsequent work you guys decide to do. Best to know your limitations and not try to go TOO nuts pushing them ... Thanks!
I'm on the fence currently about hunter (like the concept art but need to see at least a render to avoid the conversion issues that happened between the epirian contractor concept art and the minis) and keep checking back every hour.
Okay, now I'm starting to get excited. Those bots for the Epirians are pretty cool looking, and that is great value. I'm not sold on the Karists, however.
Here's the hunter in actual HIPS plastic: Fully modular, fully multipart, three sliding core sprues of crisp detail. Those legs are single parts with slot-in feet - there are no seams on the limbs of this model, despite detail from 4 directions.
And here's what's in the box now:
If you've been sitting on the fence, now's a good time to back us because at some point in the near future we'll give backers early access to a free, professionally recorded audiobook set in the Maelstrom's Edge universe.
Hunters look like the kind of anime robots that are very threatening in Act 1 but blow up like fireworks by Act 3. This pleases me. Hopefully the scarecrows will look a bit more menacing in non-silhouette form.
The silhouette for the angel looks pretty boss, too. I hope it's as monstrous in the plastic.
Add another squad of drones and of Karist troops/angel adults for maximum yield.
Everyone at the $90 level is now getting 2 Shadowwalkers, an Angel, 2 Bot Handlers, 2 Scarecrows, and 2 Hunters? Plus the Kadder Nova and the other models as well.
Everyone at the $90 level is now getting 2 Shadowwalkers, an Angel, 2 Bot Handlers, 2 Scarecrows, and 2 Hunters? Plus the Kadder Nova and the other models as well.
Yup, and if we hit 45K a full sprue of terrain too!
Everyone at the $90 level is now getting 2 Shadowwalkers, an Angel, 2 Bot Handlers, 2 Scarecrows, and 2 Hunters? Plus the Kadder Nova and the other models as well.
Yup, and if we hit 45K a full sprue of terrain too!
Awesome. Might want to update the $90 level description then
Everyone at the $90 level is now getting 2 Shadowwalkers, an Angel, 2 Bot Handlers, 2 Scarecrows, and 2 Hunters? Plus the Kadder Nova and the other models as well.
Yup, and if we hit 45K a full sprue of terrain too!
Awesome. Might want to update the $90 level description then
It is updated in the main text, but kickstarter does not allow you to change a pledge description once it has a backer, so we'd have to get all 262 backers to stop backing to update that text on the right hand side / pledge selection :S
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Hunters look like the kind of anime robots that are very threatening in Act 1 but blow up like fireworks by Act 3. This pleases me. Hopefully the scarecrows will look a bit more menacing in non-silhouette form.
The silhouette for the angel looks pretty boss, too. I hope it's as monstrous in the plastic.
Add another squad of drones and of Karist troops/angel adults for maximum yield.
Pretty much what Bob said. "Act 1" hunter robots to go with the "Chapter 1" Epirian Contractors . . . which is just how I like them, too. And it sounds like you guys are interested in doing the elite Corporation mercs sometime down the long road later anyway, so it seems like you're thinking along those lines, too. The Hunters do come with weapon options, right?
Hurrah for 2x Shadow Walkers / Robot controllers (I'm guessing it's two to a sprue, like the Tempest elites, but cool anyway.)
It's the Angel profile that really has my attention, though. If the model looks anywhere near as cool as that black outline, I'm sold. I was honestly expecting something a lot more blobby, closer to the ground, with a few tentacles lashing out of its gelatin. This spidery, raised-by-it's-own-tendrils silhouette blows my idea out of the water.
All this and an audiobook too. An audiobook! Bless you. Love them. Wish more companies would do them.
And should your totals skyrocket and you wonder how to add value in the future, I'd just follow Bob's advice.
P.S. You're not going to "pull a Mantic" and advertise flying models with transparent flying bases, then ship them with crummy opaque ones, right? Damn, but I hate that.
My first reaction to ME was that the Karlists looked kinda cool and that the Epirians looked kinda bland......now I'm looking more at the Epirians as useful miniatures to add to my collection and wondering what I would do with the Karlists apart from ME.
Hurrah for 2x Shadow Walkers / Robot controllers (I'm guessing it's two to a sprue, like the Tempest elites, but cool anyway.)
They are one per sprue as they have lots of extra options - the handler makes a normal handler or an HQ handler with different torso, antenna, heads, etc.
It's the Angel profile that really has my attention, though. If the model looks anywhere near as cool as that black outline, I'm sold. I was honestly expecting something a lot more blobby, closer to the ground, with a few tentacles lashing out of its gelatin. This spidery, raised-by-it's-own-tendrils silhouette blows my idea out of the water.
The angel was our most difficult model to get right, but it looks great and I cant wait to show it off. You would not believe it is made with plastic until you have it in your hands.
All this and an audiobook too. An audiobook! Bless you. Love them. Wish more companies would do them.
We did it so we can saturate our lives with Maelstrom's Edge and force our families to listen to the stories in the car
Vermonter wrote: You're not going to "pull a Mantic" and advertise flying models with transparent flying bases, then ship them with crummy opaque ones, right? Damn, but I hate that.
They will only be transparent. I personally cant stand opaque flight rods, but those who like that can paint them.
Thanks for the replies, legoburner. And that's great news about the Shadow walkers / Robot controllers. 1 per sprue, lots of options, 2 per $90 pledge. Very nice.
Just wanted to add that I love the new stretch goals, because they're things that I'm not that invested in. If that sounds counter-intuitive, let me put it this way: If you're going to structure stretch goals around things like dice, suppression markers, and bases, it means that you're quite serious about putting unrevealed models in the base pledge from the get-go. If I read this correctly, there aren't going to be any more new model stretch goals - when you say the Karist Angel is included in the $90 pledge, you mean it, it isn't conditional.
Which of course means that the $90 deal is actually a hell of a deal right now, as opposed to possibly becoming that in the eleventh hour of the campaign. If we never add in a few more dice or suppression counters, I'll live. If the adult Angel never made it in to the base pledge, honestly, I'd pull out, but it sounds like retreat is no longer an option for me.
You guys are indeed being quite serious and gutsy with your initial launch. I respect that.
It takes three sprues to build a hunter. We'll have pictures in an update later this week.
Thanks for the kind words everyone! Vermonter, the large angel and all the rest is now forever fixed as part of the boxed set, and that will remain the case. No stress about what you'll get in the boxed set now!
legoburner wrote: Vermonter, the large angel and all the rest is now forever fixed as part of the boxed set, and that will remain the case. No stress about what you'll get in the boxed set now!
The hunter looks nice. I'm curious to see if it'll be an add on later on in the campaign.
Lego, when you post pics of the sprues (or even the models again), can you pose either the sprue or the hunter next to ruler and/or some of the other Epirian models to gauge the size? It's hard to tell given that you said the cover art had the larger models made even larger for dramatic visual effect.
warboss wrote: The hunter looks nice. I'm curious to see if it'll be an add on later on in the campaign.
Lego, when you post pics of the sprues (or even the models again), can you pose either the sprue or the hunter next to ruler and/or some of the other Epirian models to gauge the size? It's hard to tell given that you said the cover art had the larger models made even larger for dramatic visual effect.
There is a pic with other models in the latest KS update:
Just to be 100% clear, this is *not* a model comparable to a dreadnought-size in 40k. Its more of Tau Crisis Suit sized.
warboss wrote: The hunter looks nice. I'm curious to see if it'll be an add on later on in the campaign.
Lego, when you post pics of the sprues (or even the models again), can you pose either the sprue or the hunter next to ruler and/or some of the other Epirian models to gauge the size? It's hard to tell given that you said the cover art had the larger models made even larger for dramatic visual effect.
They've said 48mm
(although that said a picture against something known wouldn't hurt)
This tau player approves of the crisis suit size. Thanks for the update. I was going off of what was posted in the thread and didn't see that pic. Also, it appears my other question (for now) was also answered.
One side effect of adding all these additional models is that we have to simplify our packing process, which means that other than the terrain (which is handled at a separate facility), we will not be able to offer other add-ons for the moment. We intend to keep exploring this over the course of the kickstarter to try and find a way to make it work though!
It takes three sprues to build a hunter. We'll have pictures in an update later this week.
Thanks for the kind words everyone! Vermonter, the large angel and all the rest is now forever fixed as part of the boxed set, and that will remain the case. No stress about what you'll get in the boxed set now!
So what is the MSRP on this boxed set now after adding all this stuff?
weeble1000 wrote: You sneaky bastards put that hunter model on a little hill .
Seriously though, nice looking model. I'm not a terribly huge fan of most of the ME art/models, but that hunter is pretty dern cool!
That was done on purpose, because as he doesn't have a base currently, when you stand him next to the infantry, it looks shorter than it actually is…so putting him up on a little hill actually gives a better sense of the size of the model really.
Well, I'm definitely going to have to base the Hunter. It looks way too top heavy looking to be practical as a stand alone, maybe depending on how you pose it.
The hunters are fantastic. Great move on upping thie base pledge contents. You are laying the groundwork well for becoming a big player in the market.
Again, those hunters are absolutely fantastic. You may consider changing the native Dakka banner to include pics of them, should get some more people to give the project another look.
I personally hope at least one of the stretch goals is to add in some more of the infantry sprues.
Gallahad wrote: The hunters are fantastic. Great move on upping thie base pledge contents. You are laying the groundwork well for becoming a big player in the market.
Again, those hunters are absolutely fantastic. You may consider changing the native Dakka banner to include pics of them, should get some more people to give the project another look.
Cyporiean wrote:The Hunter is a full drone, right? There isn't some life form crammed into that tiny chest cavity, right?
Yep, full bot. Its just designed originally to be a warmech, whereas the other drones were originally made by the Foundation to perform non-military functions and then later converted to military service. The Hunter is the first true bot we've shown that the Foundation designed specifically for war.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:In the story, they require a bot handler.
None of the bots require a bot handler to function. They all have rudimentary processing abilities that allows them to function on their own (think of ED-209 without the homicidal bugs). Its just a bot handler allows them to perform at a higher level of capabilities.
weeble1000 wrote: You sneaky bastards put that hunter model on a little hill .
Seriously though, nice looking model. I'm not a terribly huge fan of most of the ME art/models, but that hunter is pretty dern cool!
That was done on purpose, because as he doesn't have a base currently, when you stand him next to the infantry, it looks shorter than it actually is…so putting him up on a little hill actually gives a better sense of the size of the model really.
Will he be on a base for game purposes? If so what size?
Cyporiean wrote:The Hunter is a full drone, right? There isn't some life form crammed into that tiny chest cavity, right?
Yep, full bot. Its just designed originally to be a warmech, whereas the other drones were originally made by the Foundation to perform non-military functions and then later converted to military service. The Hunter is the first true bot we've shown that the Foundation designed specifically for war.
That always annoys the hell out of me with Tau Crisis Suits minis.
Hunters don't require a Bot Handler, as they are a separate unit, but the Journeyman Bot Handler Command unit can buff the Hunter (as well as any other drone or bot unit) to make them more effective. We'll have an update on the Hunter's rules later this week, and there's a post on the Bot Handler coming as well.
d-usa wrote: Will he be on a base for game purposes? If so what size?
They dont need bases for the game, bases would be good for aesthetic purposes and are the $60K stretch goal.
The two sizes we are hoping to make are 44mm and 52mm. See stretch goal #6 for more information:
The Hunter Robots, Spider Drones and Large Angel are all free standing models. The rules work fine with them like that, but we'd love to get proper bases so that they can match the other models thematically for hobbyists who put lots of effort into basing their forces nicely. We've already got all the CAD models completed, but need a guaranteed volume to justify production of these bases. If we hit $60K, we can include 1 large Angel base and 6 Hunter and Spider Drone bases in every set, complete with our front and rear arc marker notches.
Will he be on a base for game purposes? If so what size?
See the new list of stretch goals, we have base designs ready for both the Spider Drones and the Hunger/Mature Angel, but we will need to hit those goals to get them (and I desperately want them!).
Regardless of how it plays out, the rules will cover it...its just the bases will make it much cleaner. And even if we can't make the bases, you will still be allowed to put it on a base without breaking any rules for sure.
As for the specific sizes of these stretch goal bases, Lego will have to chime in (I can't remember right now).
None of the bots require a bot handler to function. They all have rudimentary processing abilities that allows them to function on their own (think of ED-209 without the homicidal bugs). Its just a bot handler allows them to perform at a higher level of capabilities.
Considering they are designed to fight in wars the homicidal bugs are just program functions
I am guessing you are planning a 40mm size base for this guy?
Cyporiean wrote:The Hunter is a full drone, right? There isn't some life form crammed into that tiny chest cavity, right?
Yep, full bot. Its just designed originally to be a warmech, whereas the other drones were originally made by the Foundation to perform non-military functions and then later converted to military service. The Hunter is the first true bot we've shown that the Foundation designed specifically for war.
That always annoys the hell out of me with Tau Crisis Suits minis.
Crisis suits were designed for war during one of the earlier spheres of expansion. I don't recall any fluff about them being civilian purpose suits initially.
d-usa wrote: Will he be on a base for game purposes? If so what size?
They dont need bases for the game, bases would be good for aesthetic purposes and are the $60K stretch goal.
The two sizes we are hoping to make are 44mm and 52mm. See stretch goal #6 for more information:
The Hunter Robots, Spider Drones and Large Angel are all free standing models. The rules work fine with them like that, but we'd love to get proper bases so that they can match the other models thematically for hobbyists who put lots of effort into basing their forces nicely. We've already got all the CAD models completed, but need a guaranteed volume to justify production of these bases. If we hit $60K, we can include 1 large Angel base and 6 Hunter and Spider Drone bases in every set, complete with our front and rear arc marker notches.
Ah, that I would agree with considering I've been sorta converting bigger crisis suits. You definitely can fit a medge human in there but there is no need to given its a robot.
I stop following this for two seconds and you sneaky gits try to sneak a badass robot under my nose.
How could this happen to me...?
I have a deal with good guy tides to swap my Contractors for his Karists to make a double the size army... but, that was before I saw the bot handler and the two mechs basically...
Hm. Time to negotiate our deal more. I actually pledged today guys. Good luck everyone.
Edit: How many extra 12$ allotments would I need to be able to get enough parts to replicated the building in the top left and bottom left of this image? Thanks all.
Stormwall wrote: Edit: How many extra 12$ allotments would I need to be able to get enough parts to replicated the building in the top left and bottom left of this image? Thanks all.
I can't say for the grey buildings, as they weren't mine... But the building in the top left was bult using a single sprue, witha few leftover parts.
Stormwall wrote: Edit: How many extra 12$ allotments would I need to be able to get enough parts to replicated the building in the top left and bottom left of this image? Thanks all.
I can't say for the grey buildings, as they weren't mine... But the building in the top left was bult using a single sprue, witha few leftover parts.
I may have to get a few of those. At least two. Thanks man. Was the entire building made from just MEdge parts or was it plasticard too?
Stormwall wrote: Edit: How many extra 12$ allotments would I need to be able to get enough parts to replicated the building in the top left and bottom left of this image? Thanks all.
I can't say for the grey buildings, as they weren't mine... But the building in the top left was bult using a single sprue, witha few leftover parts.
I may have to get a few of those. At least two. Thanks man. Was the entire building made from just MEdge parts or was it plasticard too?
The MEdge sprue only contains detail bits, like doors, computer terminals, windows, etc... The actual structure is something you have to provide yourself, like using electrical boxes or plasticard.
You weren't joking about a massive update! Well worth the wait and tomo I'm going to get on to a few mates who have been sitting on the fence about this!
I may have to get a few of those. At least two. Thanks man. Was the entire building made from just MEdge parts or was it plasticard too?
The walls are 5mm foamcore, with the buttresses bulked out with some 3mm foamcore alongside to make them the same width as the support struts on the MEdge sprue. The roof is just thin card, and there's a strip of embroidery mesh down the walkway on the roof peak.
The interesting thing I have found about the terrain sprues is that they actually do a fantastic job of tying a whole range of different building designs together. Ragardless of the individual construction of the different buildings, the common elements provided by the terrain sprue result in them all looking like they belong together, which is great for creating a cohesive look on the table.
I'm in. Thanks guys for the new game. Refreshing. I'm not a GW brasher and have been with 40K since Rogue Trader but I have fallen out of love with the new way of them doing things. I look forward to December !
Now I¡m starting to get interested. Frankly the first offerings didn't do much for me but the building sprue and the Hunter are tickling my fancy. Hmmm.
I don't know if it's possible but a flexible pledge that allows me to get those add-ons rather than a pledge level might pull me in.
M.
Miguelsan wrote: Now I¡m starting to get interested. Frankly the first offerings didn't do much for me but the building sprue and the Hunter are tickling my fancy. Hmmm.
I don't know if it's possible but a flexible pledge that allows me to get those add-ons rather than a pledge level might pull me in. M.
If you filter on me, you'll see the answer to that in my last post. In a nutshell, no for now.
When exactly will the opportunity for that begin? We have a few people in the area who are backing and I'm sure we'd all be interested in doing that. I'm sure sooner rather than later wouldn't be a trouble either.
Miguelsan wrote: Now I¡m starting to get interested. Frankly the first offerings didn't do much for me but the building sprue and the Hunter are tickling my fancy. Hmmm.
I don't know if it's possible but a flexible pledge that allows me to get those add-ons rather than a pledge level might pull me in.
M.
As far as I understand, you could pledge $1 then add $12 and get a terrain sprue. But to get the Hunter you'll have to go in for $90 or wait till it hits retail.
Is there any way to estimate what the retail prices will be if the campaign hits $50k? How about $100k?
I ask because I'd love to see this do well at retail, but I am worried about how the pricing will play out. If a hunter costs the same as a crisis suit, or a resin kit from another company, then it won't be a very attractive purchase. But if they are sold using the strength of plastic sprues' economy of scale, say in Mantic-like bundles with bigger savings per unit, they'll be very tempting.
Grey Templar wrote:So why 44mm and 52mm and not 40mm and 50mm?
Because that is the leg span of the models The art was designed before the models, then the models were designed to match the rest of the range. From here on out we can standardise on base sizes. The small base is 24/22mm (base/top), so is compatible with existing base storage options and the many decorative resin bases out there on the market already.
Stormwall wrote:Edit: How many extra 12$ allotments would I need to be able to get enough parts to replicated the building in the top left and bottom left of this image? Thanks all.
The bit on the bottom left that you can see can all be done with one sprue, but two of the large doors are used on that building if you look at it from the other side, so two sprues would be needed in total for that one (or just dont put in a door frame on the other side).
Emperors_Champion wrote:You weren't joking about a massive update! Well worth the wait and tomo I'm going to get on to a few mates who have been sitting on the fence about this!
Corporal_Chaos wrote:I'm in. Thanks guys for the new game. Refreshing. I'm not a GW brasher and have been with 40K since Rogue Trader but I have fallen out of love with the new way of them doing things. I look forward to December !
Thanks very much guys! Your support is very much appreciated and helps us get more in to the set
Grey Templar wrote:Question on playtesting.
When exactly will the opportunity for that begin? We have a few people in the area who are backing and I'm sure we'd all be interested in doing that. I'm sure sooner rather than later wouldn't be a trouble either.
After the kickstarter - the KS is quite a timesink for us all, so the formatting and cleanup of the beta rules will not be done until then. It will be fairly soon after the KS though and we'll send out a link for the beta rules to backers who want to beta test, which will likely be a question on the post-KS backer survey.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Is there any way to estimate what the retail prices will be if the campaign hits $50k? How about $100k?
I ask because I'd love to see this do well at retail, but I am worried about how the pricing will play out. If a hunter costs the same as a crisis suit, or a resin kit from another company, then it won't be a very attractive purchase. But if they are sold using the strength of plastic sprues' economy of scale, say in Mantic-like bundles with bigger savings per unit, they'll be very tempting.
Our final pricing will likely be between those two offerings. They'll certainly be cheaper than crisis suits as we dont have the overhead of an entire chain of stores to support, but it is too early for us to be able to give even a broad outline of prices yet - we have to get the KS out and in people's hands before we start on retail!
d-usa wrote: Will he be on a base for game purposes? If so what size?
They dont need bases for the game, bases would be good for aesthetic purposes and are the $60K stretch goal.
The rules for the game use facing arcs. Doesn't that mean they do need bases?
legoburner wrote: After the kickstarter - the KS is quite a timesink for us all, so the formatting and cleanup of the beta rules will not be done until then. It will be fairly soon after the KS though and we'll send out a link for the beta rules to backers who want to beta test, which will likely be a question on the post-KS backer survey.
After the kickstarter - the KS is quite a timesink for us all, so the formatting and cleanup of the beta rules will not be done until then. It will be fairly soon after the KS though and we'll send out a link for the beta rules to backers who want to beta test, which will likely be a question on the post-KS backer survey.
If there is anyway to get something out before the end of the kickstater, even a rough quickstart mission, I would do it. This can be a great way to drive pledges and is an easy way for existing pledgers to convince others.
The new additions to the box are great! before i was thinking i was going to get an alright deal, now i know it is fantastic!
The hunters look great, and the scarecrows look great too, can I ask as to why they're blacked out on the KS?
The idea of adding hunters to the forum's banner is a great one, as frankly IMHO the Karist troopers currently there leave you a bit underwhelmed and not really interested.
Great work with upping the value, and really excited about the pose-ability of the Hunters, I've been looking for mechs that can be posed firing sideways, swiveling at the waist for a while now, and these sound like they'll do the job brilliantly!
Edit: Also, on the KS page, it makes no mention anywhere of a base for the kaddar nova. Will it be included, and you've just missed it, or will we need a separate base?
Vanguard-13 wrote: I think they are blacked out to provide mystery. so people will get more interested and research it!
Yeah, as we haven't shown these models before, we wanted to give each of the Hunter, Scarecrow and Angel their full attention, with updates looking at the rules, fluff and model for each one. This week we'll be concentrating on the Hunter, with the others to follow. Everyone will definitely be getting them in the $90 pledge no matter what, but we felt this would be a more fun way of revealing them!
The Kaddar Nova has its own standard infantry base (with our special arc indication slots).
Are there any more details on the Shadow Walker or Bot Handler sprues? Am I correct in thinking they're still in production but nearly finished? I'd love to see what those models are looking like, especially the handler.
Vanguard-13 wrote: I think they are blacked out to provide mystery. so people will get more interested and research it!
Yeah, as we haven't shown these models before, we wanted to give each of the Hunter, Scarecrow and Angel their full attention, with updates looking at the rules, fluff and model for each one. This week we'll be concentrating on the Hunter, with the others to follow. Everyone will definitely be getting them in the $90 pledge no matter what, but we felt this would be a more fun way of revealing them!
The Kaddar Nova has its own standard infantry base (with our special arc indication slots).
Thanks for clearing that up, i was slightly worried that we'd be one base short when we get to december.
And that makes sense on the scarecrows, nice marketing strategy
Tibbsy wrote: Are there any more details on the Shadow Walker or Bot Handler sprues? Am I correct in thinking they're still in production but nearly finished? I'd love to see what those models are looking like, especially the handler.
They, along with the kaddar nova, are still in production and are almost finished, but the last aspect of completion is the cutting of the metal tool, so the models cant be shown until that point, which will almost certainly be shortly after the kickstarter. They are still undergoing a few sculpting and posing tweaks so we wont be showing and renders either as they will misrepresent the final model.
Apologies for the oversight on the kaddar nova base counting. In all likelihood, we'll throw in a few extra bases anyway.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Is there any way to estimate what the retail prices will be if the campaign hits $50k? How about $100k?
I ask because I'd love to see this do well at retail, but I am worried about how the pricing will play out. If a hunter costs the same as a crisis suit, or a resin kit from another company, then it won't be a very attractive purchase. But if they are sold using the strength of plastic sprues' economy of scale, say in Mantic-like bundles with bigger savings per unit, they'll be very tempting.
Our final pricing will likely be between those two offerings. They'll certainly be cheaper than crisis suits as we dont have the overhead of an entire chain of stores to support, but it is too early for us to be able to give even a broad outline of prices yet - we have to get the KS out and in people's hands before we start on retail!
Surely you have a spreadsheet and a strategy of some sort about the MSRP of the boxed set though. I just am scared that this change to the core set wasn't made with a long-term strategy in mind, as nothing seems to make sense for how exactly to price it now.
Pricing it above $150 puts you with only really the Return of the Overseers Firestorm Armada set as a comparison. Even then, Spartan started the game off with lower priced starter sets and has only worked up to this price level after the game had established some traction.
Pricing it between $125-$150 MSRP has a few comparisons on the market right now, but nothing stands out as being exactly similar. Spartan has core sets in this range for a few of their games, but those are tough sells to a FLGS to stock even with a strong business history like Spartan has. Privateer has their new All-in-One faction sets, but you can buy-in to the faction at a much lower cost so these products don't have to be designed as the only buy-in point for potential customers but rather can cater to specific customer types. Dropzone Commander also has a line of "Premium" starters at this price point, but they are priced this high because they come with a custom KR case and, like Warmachine, they aren't the only price entry point into the game so they can be targetted towards a different customer type than a cheaper set might. It is very much worth pointing out that all these products are not common at every FLGS, as the price point and box size is normally such that a store owner wants to buy just enough to sell quickly through an initial allotment (Barring of course a shop with a heavy presence of one of these games being played, a place with a well established Firestorm Armada community is fine stocking multiple core set products knowing that the customer throughput to that game will eventually result in sales).
The price point between $100-$125 is another strange place, with really only Spartan's Armoured Clash faction starters occupying this space that I am aware of. (Technically, the latest Infinity core set checks in at just over $100 MSRP, but again it is a well established game system that has potentially lower buy-in points). So really, at the >$100 price point the only currently existing options are either Spartan products or premiumly priced products for games that have another, lower entry point to the game (and keep in mind that by buy-in point that means everything a person would be expected to have to start playing, so if MEdge wants to claim that it will have lower priced faction starters as an entry point then they need to have some sort of rulebook, full or otherwise, and the crazy number of counters to boot available due to the suppression token mechanic).
Then we come to the $99.99 price point, which seems to be the most common for these types of big box starter sets (and what I originally expected MEdge to be sitting at). Even at this price point, it can be rough to sell a store on stocking something like Robotech or Deadzone due to the huge footprint the box has and how hard it can be to move multiple units. Still, $99 seems to be the target for many systems for multiple economic and psychological reasons. The biggest problem with a $99 core set for MEdge though would be how much of a kick in the pants it would be to Kickstarter backers. After shipping, most people are going to be paying right around the same price as retail for what essentially amounts to the same product. While MEdge may be lower risk than some other Kickstarters for delivering on time, people still are paying in advance for a product that will be likely the same price at their FLGS. That doesn't even get into what many here will end up doing, which is buying from Miniature Market or the like with an easy 20% discount (or more, as Deal of the Day bargains from many online retailers are incredibly competitive these days). So while the Core Set might be a sweet deal for what it is, that doesn't mean that this Kickstarter would end up being a sweet deal for people pledging compared to what they could end up with later. If that is SAS's intention, that is certainly defendable (Level 99 games doesn't discount much for their Kickstarters and instead goes with the idea that the reason to back is to make the core better for everyone), but the important thing is that backers need to fully understand if they are backing a Kickstarter like that when they might be expecting a "Lowest price, ever" one instead.
Again, I'm not saying that the Core Set isn't a good value in a vacuum (its quite insane now actually, as large models and tons of thick cardboard are not something everyone can just throw on top of all the other sprues being provided). I do however have concerns that either this Kickstarter or the retail release will suffer unless a plan exists for how specifically this game is intended to be marketed (aka, who is the target and what is the price). A lot of this goes back to Buzzsaw's points in the Dakka Discussions thread on MEdge, where SAS seems to have everything nailed but the business-y parts of being a miniatures company.
(big snip)
...how much of a kick in the pants it would be to Kickstarter backers. After shipping, most people are going to be paying right around the same price as retail for what essentially amounts to the same product. While MEdge may be lower risk than some other Kickstarters for delivering on time, people still are paying in advance for a product that will be likely the same price at their FLGS. That doesn't even get into what many here will end up doing, which is buying from Miniature Market or the like with an easy 20% discount (or more, as Deal of the Day bargains from many online retailers are incredibly competitive these days). So while the Core Set might be a sweet deal for what it is, that doesn't mean that this Kickstarter would end up being a sweet deal for people pledging compared to what they could end up with later. If that is SAS's intention, that is certainly defendable (Level 99 games doesn't discount much for their Kickstarters and instead goes with the idea that the reason to back is to make the core better for everyone), but the important thing is that backers need to fully understand if they are backing a Kickstarter like that when they might be expecting a "Lowest price, ever" one instead.
Again, I'm not saying that the Core Set isn't a good value in a vacuum (its quite insane now actually, as large models and tons of thick cardboard are not something everyone can just throw on top of all the other sprues being provided). I do however have concerns that either this Kickstarter or the retail release will suffer unless a plan exists for how specifically this game is intended to be marketed (aka, who is the target and what is the price). A lot of this goes back to Buzzsaw's points in the Dakka Discussions thread on MEdge, where SAS seems to have everything nailed but the business-y parts of being a miniatures company.
You said it yourself, the deal is pretty incredible right now. We of course have a plan with lots of price options for retail, but it also has a lot of variables, not least that we have costs and revenue across three currencies and an election in the UK tomorrow and a slowing economy in China, so we dont want to state one price and then have currencies and VAT (tax) go completely off their current alignment over the next 6 months and have to back track on our price, be it better or worse.
Kickstarter backers can absolutely rest assured that they will be getting a fantastic deal, especially once the additional value adds like the stretch goal freebies and the VIP freebies are priced in (VIP will probably end up being worth $60 of content on its own, without using any of the discounts or early access it enables). If you back us on kickstarter, you get the models and game before anyone else, and will get a better deal, almost certainly better than the stock retail price when all parts are added up. Before we go to retail we'll be selling direct for a while as well as we finalise our retail logistics, so there will be no discounted selling for a bit of time.
We have well and truly learned from our many friends who have run major kickstarters what to keep an eye on with costs and our production costs are (for the most part) fixed, and thanks to being plastic, the bulk of those costs are already covered, so you dont have to worry about us putting ourselves in a bad financial position as a result of our generous pricing.
We've heard no reports of problems with kickstarter today - have you tried clearing the cookies and cache on your web browser? Good luck and thanks for the desire to pledge!
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: We've heard no reports of problems with kickstarter today - have you tried clearing the cookies and cache on your web browser? Good luck and thanks for the desire to pledge!
I'm just liking the fact that with all the stuff in that box so far, it actually feels like I'd have enough to play an actual game and possibly even have some choices about what I actually field.
It seems you will have exactly the required amounts for true full sized games, not just 'starter' level stuff. That isn't counting the possibilities of what may be added via more sprues later either... not bad!
highlord tamburlaine wrote:I'm just liking the fact that with all the stuff in that box so far, it actually feels like I'd have enough to play an actual game and possibly even have some choices about what I actually field.
MajorTom11 wrote:It seems you will have exactly the required amounts for true full sized games, not just 'starter' level stuff. That isn't counting the possibilities of what may be added via more sprues later either... not bad!
Just to make sure it is absolutely clear and nobody comes away with the wrong idea: What comes in the box currently is a 100% playable game. We've done quite a bit of testing playing just with the contents of the box set to make sure that is the case.
However, similar to what you have with say, the Star Wars Armada starter set from FFG, if/when we declare a 'recommend points value' for games, it would be above what you're able to field with just one box set alone (a single force from the box set will probably represent about 2/3 of a 'recommended' game size).
So while a single boxed set game is fun and challenging, and there are certainly a few options to choose from when building your models from just that set, you will find yourself gravitating towards certain kinds of different force configurations that are only possible by adding additional models to your force. For example, an Epirian player might really want to have an additional unit of Firefly Drones (as they 'mark' enemy units making it easier for the rest of your units to hit them) or another Journeyman Bot Handler (so as to be able to enable Bot Protocols on more of your bot units). On the Karist side, you might find yourself wanting an extra Kaddar Nova (to provide an extra shield and a wider area of your force that is more resistant to the effects of suppression) or more Shadow Walkers (because they're able to snatch objectives by rifting across the table), and so on.
Ooh, I'd love to make some crisis-hunters, adding a jetpack, and switching out the arm-gun shouldn't be to much of a hassle, judging from the pictures.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Ooh, I'd love to make some crisis-hunters, adding a jetpack, and switching out the arm-gun shouldn't be to much of a hassle, judging from the pictures.
I was looking at a game called "MechaDrome" ((I dislike the look of the mechs.... but...)) I found some interesting looking arms.
How tall are crisis suits? The Epirian Hunters are about 48mm tall, with the legs being about 29mm long with a flat foot. The torso is also about 29mm from top to tail.
(big snip)
...how much of a kick in the pants it would be to Kickstarter backers. After shipping, most people are going to be paying right around the same price as retail for what essentially amounts to the same product. While MEdge may be lower risk than some other Kickstarters for delivering on time, people still are paying in advance for a product that will be likely the same price at their FLGS. That doesn't even get into what many here will end up doing, which is buying from Miniature Market or the like with an easy 20% discount (or more, as Deal of the Day bargains from many online retailers are incredibly competitive these days). So while the Core Set might be a sweet deal for what it is, that doesn't mean that this Kickstarter would end up being a sweet deal for people pledging compared to what they could end up with later. If that is SAS's intention, that is certainly defendable (Level 99 games doesn't discount much for their Kickstarters and instead goes with the idea that the reason to back is to make the core better for everyone), but the important thing is that backers need to fully understand if they are backing a Kickstarter like that when they might be expecting a "Lowest price, ever" one instead.
Again, I'm not saying that the Core Set isn't a good value in a vacuum (its quite insane now actually, as large models and tons of thick cardboard are not something everyone can just throw on top of all the other sprues being provided). I do however have concerns that either this Kickstarter or the retail release will suffer unless a plan exists for how specifically this game is intended to be marketed (aka, who is the target and what is the price). A lot of this goes back to Buzzsaw's points in the Dakka Discussions thread on MEdge, where SAS seems to have everything nailed but the business-y parts of being a miniatures company.
You said it yourself, the deal is pretty incredible right now. We of course have a plan with lots of price options for retail, but it also has a lot of variables, not least that we have costs and revenue across three currencies and an election in the UK tomorrow and a slowing economy in China, so we dont want to state one price and then have currencies and VAT (tax) go completely off their current alignment over the next 6 months and have to back track on our price, be it better or worse.
Kickstarter backers can absolutely rest assured that they will be getting a fantastic deal, especially once the additional value adds like the stretch goal freebies and the VIP freebies are priced in (VIP will probably end up being worth $60 of content on its own, without using any of the discounts or early access it enables). If you back us on kickstarter, you get the models and game before anyone else, and will get a better deal, almost certainly better than the stock retail price when all parts are added up. Before we go to retail we'll be selling direct for a while as well as we finalise our retail logistics, so there will be no discounted selling for a bit of time.
We have well and truly learned from our many friends who have run major kickstarters what to keep an eye on with costs and our production costs are (for the most part) fixed, and thanks to being plastic, the bulk of those costs are already covered, so you dont have to worry about us putting ourselves in a bad financial position as a result of our generous pricing.
Not exactly, I implied that the Core Set is a good value in a vacuum, which is subtely different than this Kickstarter being a good deal.
If someone phoned me up and said for 90+shipping I'd get:
23 Sci-Fi Dudes
4 Flying Drones
4 Spider Drones
4 Unique Flying Aliens
2 Gundam-quality Robots
1 Giant Insectoid
All Hard Plastic with then counters, templates, cards, bases, and rules written by a source likely to be trustworthy, I'd be inclined to say that yeah it sounded alright.
The issue then becomes that the "Deal" here is 90 + shipping on Kickstarter, so there is always some level of risk, and that eventually this game has to exist in both game stores and online retailers or else it will never have a big enough community to have the tournament-level rules matter.
So first, the Kickstarter risk issue. I get that this is one of the more polished entries on the platform in awhile, but you have to remember that Spiral Arms Studios didn't exist in the customer's eye even just a month ago. This is still technically a very unknown company to many people, so without a track record to go upon that means that you inevitably suffer the sins of your predecessors. Sure, your pictures of production models look good and are probably actually production models, but there have been Kickstarters before where the term "Production Model" was used and the final results did not match these images. It comes back to trust, and again as what looks on the outside to be a company appearing out of thin air that creates a big hurdle to get over for potential customers.
There are a few ways to get over the "trust" issue:
A) Physical Inspection - An interesting data point on your kicktraq: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/medge/maelstroms-edge-a-next-gen-sci-fi-miniatures-warga/#chart-daily We kind of expect the first two days to be the biggest, but the third biggest day wasn't after you announced big additions to the Core Set but rather it was the day after Salute when people came back from actually touching the models. I'm not sure that even with the crazy long funding timeline you have a way to get people to actually see models in person (and conventions don't scale well for spreading this method anyway) but having people actually be able to touch product is often key to creating impressions in their mind.
B) Information Overload aka "Flash" - If you have production models assembled, that means you've had sprues in hand. Your slow information IV drip isn't working, while some people are waiting with baited breath to see what the Hunter sprues look like, others are just walking away because it isn't there in the first place. If your models and production technology is top-notch, get some video of someone handling the sprue and assembling some of these models - even if it is an hour long and not everyone watches it the people who do will cascade the information about the quality to others. You've stated these models are designed for painting, so get a video of someone describing why that is. People often look down about the actual marketing of stuff and want to let quality stand on its own, but on Kickstarter you have to strut your stuff - just watch Ronnie Renton talk about Battlezones in the Deadzone kickstarter for 10 minutes and tell me you don't want to grab your clippers and airbrush as fast as possible, because he translates his enthusiam for his product over to the customer.
C) Value - Often, new companies to Kickstarter try to side-step the issue by having a "value" perspective that is so insane that people feel like the risk/reward of jumping in now is justifiable.
I'm not sure you can do much about A at this point, and we'll get to C in just a minute, but if you keep holding back your marketing backers will keep holding back their dollars.
Now, "Value". When a product comes to Kickstarter, there are a few common perception of what exactly a pledger is expecting to get in terms of "value".
A) "This product will never exist without me pledging." This ties the backer emotionally into the campaign, which normally has to be a hard shift from common retail conventions in one form or another. Since you've privately funded all the sprues already and Cinceydooley is giving you the surprised squirrel gif, I think this one is already off the table.
B) "I will get things in this Kickstarter that I can never get again afterwards." Common called "Kickstarter Exclusives", this creates a very real urgency to the backer that if they don't pledge money between now and the end of the funding time that they will end up with a negative experience and feel bad about not backing. Many psychology studies have shown that people are often more afraid of having a bad experience then they are happy to have a good one, ironically a Kickstarter Exclusive can often play more into peoples fears than it can their desires. Kickstarters with momentum also get more momentum from exclusives as people will often jump in just to have exclusives to sell off later (more common for CMON and board game kickstarters than Mantic and wargame kickstarters). The down side is that it can be expensive to create models for just a campaign and it creates a perception from future customers that backers were more valuable than future customers. I think for a game that wants to be in it for the long term like SAS seems to be doing, avoiding these KS Exclusives is a sound strategy.
C) "This will never be cheaper than it is right now." Coming back to the sense of urgency, if people see a deal that they know retail will never match then they now have a ticking clock in which they can either take the deal or feel like they will regret it later. Mantic especially capitalizes upon this for their campaigns, as people have a general idea of what Mantic products cost at retail and thus can calculate what type of discount they are getting (which is commonly in the 60-70% off retail range). This is the reason I have kept harping on giving us some idea of what your MSRP expectations are, as without some number range to estimate with I am left trusting a company that didn't exist to me a month ago that this will be the best price ever (and once again, I've heard that song before from other Kickstarters and been burned, so you once more will unfairly suffer the sins of the Kickstarter platform). Unfortunately, you are in kind of a rough place with what the pledge deal looks like right now because since everything shown is "in the box", that means that it isn't like a MERCS or CMON kickstarter where I'm getting piles of extra figures outside of the normal core experience that can factor in to the value I assign to the pledge deal. That makes my personal value equation very much a "What is the cost of the Core Box" question, as I assign next to no value to the VIP status (again, this is a Tabletop Games Kickstarter, unless the $60 "value" of VIP means you are sending me $60 in figures, then I mentally assign a zero to my perceived value on it unless you can make a once-in-a-lifetime case for why that isn't true). The Core Box value question is a rough one to me personally, as I see the potential MSRP ranges as all losers for one reason or another. If the MSRP on the Core Box is very high and this really is 60% off retail then no one is ever going to buy the game at retail and I'll never have opponents to worry about. If the MSRP is closer to the $100 sweet spot that most tabletop games aim for then this Kickstarter price is a bust because I can eventually just buy from the Warstore or some other online site and get it cheaper (not to mention you have folks like judgedoug and many others who know that if this is even a moderate success at retail then it will be a Daily Deal or a part of a Black Friday sale somewhere down the line).
When you all announced that Dakka was making a game, we had a seven person group at our shop ready to buy-in. No matter the quality of the product, that group is now just two of us watching as the rest didn't see the reason to back the Kickstarter. I wouldn't take the time to write all this stuff if I didn't care about the end product being something good, but I also am sitting in a place where at the end of the day, if the Kickstarter ended today I wouldn't pledge and would wait to see what happens at retail.
On point B I'd say that one of the positives from this method is that people are less likely to get bored and pull out (a real risk for a long KS like this one)
It may mean slower uptake, but that is countered by far less risk of a few bored and/or discontent and/or trolling backers being able to knock the whole thing into reverse during a slow period of the campaign
I can definitely say that the slow release of information is extremely tedious. I check this thread occasionally, but really am not planning on jumping in until all the info has been released.
I would also love to see a video showing the sprues and how the models go together. Size comparisons are also a great idea. Put the Hunter next to a Crisis Suit and a Lego Man.
I'll definitely be buying in, but I want to see what all the options are before committing my money. I don't want to pledge $90 and then find that I should have pledged more or less based on what future add-ons are released.
Meh.. the contractors are feeling more and more like some 28mm dudes with some 10mm mecha stuff.. I don't care at all for the skinny bots. The bulky ones aren't bad but I'm not going in on "not bad", I've got enough of that from Mantic.
Next stretch goal has been met now too which is nice, onwards and upwards to the next one (and I for one am looking forward to the next one as I like the purple suppression markers!)
Those look very impressive. They look like they will go together like the smoothest gunpla.
The first thing that I noticed was the scarcity of attachment points, and the ease with which they will clean up. Then I read that you specifically placed them on parts of the model that won't be seen, and I mentally gave you a high five.
The posing possibilities should allow for larger numbers of distinctive Hunters. I really want to see what Major Tom does with this kit.
Thank you for showing us this kit. When will we see the Angels?
Well today I got to look at some of the infantry sprues, and they're frankly stunning.
Anyone who has doubts about the Epirians needs to stop, because the details on those guys is exquisite. I'd say they're just as good as what Wyrd is putting out, if not better. There is so much fine detail that isn't coming across on the pictures they have on the KS page.
I can only hope the mechs are half as good as these guys, because the Epirian's themselves knocked it out of the park. They'll give a nice challenge to any painter.
Grey Templar wrote: Well today I got to look at some of the infantry sprues, and they're frankly stunning.
Anyone who has doubts about the Epirians needs to stop, because the details on those guys is exquisite. I'd say they're just as good as what Wyrd is putting out, if not better. There is so much fine detail that isn't coming across on the pictures they have on the KS page.
I can only hope the mechs are half as good as these guys, because the Epirian's themselves knocked it out of the park. They'll give a nice challenge to any painter.
I don't think anyone doubts the technical side of things, just the designs and sculpts. Detail doesn't help in that case.
Grey Templar wrote: Meh, if you don't like the sculpts thats fair, but really the sculpts are amazing. The detail will let you do a lot, and they're quite posable.
The guns themselves are really impressive. They lose a lot of the blockyness in person.
Paint also can cover some of the issues. I think the stock paint jobs aren't showing the true impressiveness of the miniatures.
They're way better than Guardsmen, thats for sure.
That really doesn't come across from their presentation. Is their blocky silhouette, with the too-wide shoulder pads, pencil neck and squarish head simply an artifact of poor assembly? I'm not sure how much the problem of their basic proportions can be attributed to bad photographs. If the details are as good as you say, hopefully they will get someone with some fine skills and a great camera to do some damage control.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does anyone else feel like the creators have gone a bit quiet the last few days?
They've been heavily posting on KS for the last few days and are writing lots of background apparently for daily KS updates. I expect they are a little snowed under.
1) One of the complaints we were getting is that for people who hadn't been following the thread from the very beginning and kind of knew who each SAS team member was, it could be very confusing to read all the different team members responding to questions. As such, we've created this account and are trying to mainly respond using it. However, that does naturally mean that responses will sometimes take a little longer to occur than when each member was just jumping on to answer the questions when they saw them.
2) There has been a decline in the amount of direct questions asked in the last few days, as a lot of the main ones have been answered already.
Grey Templar wrote: Well today I got to look at some of the infantry sprues, and they're frankly stunning.
Anyone who has doubts about the Epirians needs to stop, because the details on those guys is exquisite. I'd say they're just as good as what Wyrd is putting out, if not better. There is so much fine detail that isn't coming across on the pictures they have on the KS page.
I can only hope the mechs are half as good as these guys, because the Epirian's themselves knocked it out of the park. They'll give a nice challenge to any painter.
Its not the level of detail I have issue with. Its the basic design and blocky silhouette of them. Blocky, guns, blocky shoulder pads and blocky hats just don't look good to me. One or maybe two of those would be ok but all of them together does not work for me.
Telling people they have to stop having doubts about a product they have seen photos of (Photos that the company themselves chose to showcase as an example of the models) because you like them doesn't seem right to me.
I like the other faction quite a bit so the problem for me isnt the level of detail or what quality of the end product but the sculpts themselves and the design behind them. If others like them that's great and I genuinly hope they sell well to those who are fans.
Also in your other post it seems like you are saying this "Its fine to dislike the sculpts, now let me tell you why you are wrong."
Grey Templar wrote: Meh, if you don't like the sculpts thats fair, but really the sculpts are amazing. The detail will let you do a lot, and they're quite posable.
The guns themselves are really impressive. They lose a lot of the blockyness in person.
Paint also can cover some of the issues. I think the stock paint jobs aren't showing the true impressiveness of the miniatures.
They're way better than Guardsmen, thats for sure.
Your post really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
REALLY
You call these stock paint jobs, but they are the paint jobs from some of Dakkadakkas best painters, and painters used massively by kickstarters. To try and say that the "problem" some of us are having with the figures is due to poor paint jobs is a slap in their faces.
Just my opinion, which I've kept quiet on so far. I hope the game does well as I love dakkadakka and the team, but so far there haven't been any models that I even remotely am interested in. If I can substitute other figures and play a decent rules set then I'll be happy, but so far I'm just not overly impressed.
This is a tabletop wargame. While there are tokens, there are no cards map tiles or other board game features, and while most of us love hard plastic... the board game crowd seems to prefer preassembled or simple assembly minis. Medge looks to be one of the most skill-intensive starter sets to assemble on the market.
More exposure is good but I don't think Medge is game BGG is looking for.
Question about the robots: How tall are they exactly?
The Hunter looks like ~48mm tall (guestimate).
If that's true, you might want to add a stretch goal to the KS with Robots only. You might sell quite a few to the Battletech/CAV crowd...
Those sprues look very good, a proper way to do robots in HIPS!
I am curious, how much more expensive is that vs. a traditional two part steel mold (percentage wise)? On one had you have a smaller mold because you don't have as many parts, on the other hand the sliding mold is more expensive. I've always suspected that the added costs wouldn't be as staggering as always assumed.
Doesn't GW (Baneblade) and Dreamforge (Leviathan) also use sliding molds on certain kits?
Cergorach wrote: Question about the robots: How tall are they exactly?
The Hunter looks like ~48mm tall (guestimate).
If that's true, you might want to add a stretch goal to the KS with Robots only. You might sell quite a few to the Battletech/CAV crowd...
Those sprues look very good, a proper way to do robots in HIPS!
I am curious, how much more expensive is that vs. a traditional two part steel mold (percentage wise)? On one had you have a smaller mold because you don't have as many parts, on the other hand the sliding mold is more expensive. I've always suspected that the added costs wouldn't be as staggering as always assumed.
Doesn't GW (Baneblade) and Dreamforge (Leviathan) also use sliding molds on certain kits?
It is indeed 48mm. Thanks for the kind words on the sprues - a lot of care, love and attention went in to each one.
Sliding core incurs many additional costs in terms of time, flexibility and capabilities that add to the 'staggering' assumption as well as the raw financial difference.
The Baneblade uses a very simple sliding core - nothing close to the level of complexity used on the hunters. The Leviathan also uses some which are done very well as you would not know if you are not looking for it, but it allowed that model to avoid having some nasty seams. Mantic used them on their recent zombies (on the legs) to good effect too. Due to the complexity involved, it is a rare and infrequent choice for wargaming companies to use sliding cores. There are some pretty simple sliding cores that can be used for hollowing out gun barrels (literally just a pin coming in from the outside of the tool), but they are not the same thing as having a full extra side (or more) to a mould.
The barrels are indeed rather simple sliding molds, but very effective at reducing parts and delicate barrels (as with the heavy bolters from the SM kits).
btw. I mean a robot only Pledge and not a stretch goal. Something with four or twelve robots would be interesting (depending on price of course).
I already upped my pledge to two $90 sets, would more be possible by just adding x amount?
Grey Templar wrote: Meh, if you don't like the sculpts thats fair, but really the sculpts are amazing. The detail will let you do a lot, and they're quite posable.
The guns themselves are really impressive. They lose a lot of the blockyness in person.
Paint also can cover some of the issues. I think the stock paint jobs aren't showing the true impressiveness of the miniatures.
They're way better than Guardsmen, thats for sure.
Your post really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
REALLY
You call these stock paint jobs, but they are the paint jobs from some of Dakkadakkas best painters, and painters used massively by kickstarters. To try and say that the "problem" some of us are having with the figures is due to poor paint jobs is a slap in their faces.
Just my opinion, which I've kept quiet on so far. I hope the game does well as I love dakkadakka and the team, but so far there haven't been any models that I even remotely am interested in. If I can substitute other figures and play a decent rules set then I'll be happy, but so far I'm just not overly impressed.
I don't mean to say they're bad paint jobs. They're not. They just might be causing some exaggeration of the blockyness to some people. The camera adds 10 pounds as the saying goes, especially if it combines with other factors.
By ''stock'' I really just mean that paint job they're using as the examples. Its not to say they are bad. I mean, even GW had good paint jobs on their stock box art models(till recently). Calling them stock isn't an insult.
You really need to see the models in person.
A suggestion for the SaS people. You should post a video of you actually handling the sprues. The static pictures aren't quite doing them justice, it would help to see some actual fingers next to them.
Well, the things that I do have interest in are not available separately, I'm dubious as to the quality of some items, there are no specific purchase add-ons, the game is funded, so the logical course of action is just wait until retail and buy what I actually do want without all the other stuff. No offense to Yakface (I don't actually think of him as having been a good thing for 40k sorry) I will wait until I read reviews from non-biased people before spending anything more than a few supportive bucks on this.
Grot 6 - Currently the Hunters are not available as Add-ons.
And I'm not sure if they will be selling these individually. But given the slow leak of Information. (Which I like, keeps me coming back here during work to see what is going on) It could possibly be given as an Add-on much later in the kick starter. And surely at some point after it will be available individually at retail.
Grey Templar wrote: Meh, if you don't like the sculpts thats fair, but really the sculpts are amazing. The detail will let you do a lot, and they're quite posable.
The guns themselves are really impressive. They lose a lot of the blockyness in person.
Paint also can cover some of the issues. I think the stock paint jobs aren't showing the true impressiveness of the miniatures.
They're way better than Guardsmen, thats for sure.
Your post really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
REALLY
You call these stock paint jobs, but they are the paint jobs from some of Dakkadakkas best painters, and painters used massively by kickstarters. To try and say that the "problem" some of us are having with the figures is due to poor paint jobs is a slap in their faces.
Just my opinion, which I've kept quiet on so far. I hope the game does well as I love dakkadakka and the team, but so far there haven't been any models that I even remotely am interested in. If I can substitute other figures and play a decent rules set then I'll be happy, but so far I'm just not overly impressed.
I don't mean to say they're bad paint jobs. They're not. They just might be causing some exaggeration of the blockyness to some people. The camera adds 10 pounds as the saying goes, especially if it combines with other factors.
By ''stock'' I really just mean that paint job they're using as the examples. Its not to say they are bad. I mean, even GW had good paint jobs on their stock box art models(till recently). Calling them stock isn't an insult.
You really need to see the models in person.
A suggestion for the SaS people. You should post a video of you actually handling the sprues. The static pictures aren't quite doing them justice, it would help to see some actual fingers next to them.
Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.
Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.
You've never experienced that? I thought flames of war's WW2 stuff looked horrifyingly bad based on photos online, but when I finally saw the 15mm scale models in the flesh I was sold on their aesthetic, bought some there and then, and now have three full FoW armies (LW Brits, LWSS and LW Soviet).
Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.
You've never experienced that? I thought flames of war's WW2 stuff looked horrifyingly bad based on photos online, but when I finally saw the 15mm scale models in the flesh I was sold on their aesthetic, bought some there and then, and now have three full FoW armies (LW Brits, LWSS and LW Soviet).
Let's use a GW model.
Mournfangs look terrible on the gw pictures but are amazing in person.
Grey Templar wrote: Meh, if you don't like the sculpts thats fair, but really the sculpts are amazing. The detail will let you do a lot, and they're quite posable.
The guns themselves are really impressive. They lose a lot of the blockyness in person.
Paint also can cover some of the issues. I think the stock paint jobs aren't showing the true impressiveness of the miniatures.
They're way better than Guardsmen, thats for sure.
Your post really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
REALLY
You call these stock paint jobs, but they are the paint jobs from some of Dakkadakkas best painters, and painters used massively by kickstarters. To try and say that the "problem" some of us are having with the figures is due to poor paint jobs is a slap in their faces.
Just my opinion, which I've kept quiet on so far. I hope the game does well as I love dakkadakka and the team, but so far there haven't been any models that I even remotely am interested in. If I can substitute other figures and play a decent rules set then I'll be happy, but so far I'm just not overly impressed.
I don't mean to say they're bad paint jobs. They're not. They just might be causing some exaggeration of the blockyness to some people. The camera adds 10 pounds as the saying goes, especially if it combines with other factors.
By ''stock'' I really just mean that paint job they're using as the examples. Its not to say they are bad. I mean, even GW had good paint jobs on their stock box art models(till recently). Calling them stock isn't an insult.
You really need to see the models in person.
A suggestion for the SaS people. You should post a video of you actually handling the sprues. The static pictures aren't quite doing them justice, it would help to see some actual fingers next to them.
No it's still boils down to you saying the paint jobs are the reason people are not liking these. And that's not the case here. I've seen multiple paint jobs and different angles, the style is not my liking, so I've tried to leave it at that. The creators have even acknowledged the blockiness and the poor wrist pose, and tried to sloth us savage beasts with "they'll look better when you see the robots with them". I've seen the robots with them and between the angles and the chaps they are not my thing.
I've never seen figure look better with a finger in the picture, so I have no idea how that would change my mind.
I don't want to derail anymore with my personal feelings towards the models. They are way better than what I could do, and still have redeeming qualities.
As for the slow trickle of info coming out. I would rather have everything in front of me to make my choices. That's why I've set my reminder for the final 48hours.
This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person. And you know the wrist problems are pretty minor and easily fixed during assembly.
Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.
There are dozens of models I didn't care for in seeing photos but liked once I saw them in person. I am part of the same game group as Grey Templar and I too got to see the sprues last night. Honestly, I wasn't overly fond of the Epirian Contractors from the pictures (and was planning on using GWIG for them in my games). Holding the sprues in my hands, seeing the crisp detail, the lack of mold lines, and the general aesthetic (those guns look a lot less blocky in person) and my opinion of these jumped quite a bit. I'm still not sold on the heads, just because of the hats, but that's just my opinion, man, and it isn't like there aren't a million companies producing heads for 28 mm models.
I took a couple pics of the sprue, I'll see if I can get them uploaded today.
No it's still boils down to you saying the paint jobs are the reason people are not liking these. And that's not the case here. I've seen multiple paint jobs and different angles, the style is not my liking, so I've tried to leave it at that. The creators have even acknowledged the blockiness and the poor wrist pose, and tried to sloth us savage beasts with "they'll look better when you see the robots with them". I've seen the robots with them and between the angles and the chaps they are not my thing.
I've never seen figure look better with a finger in the picture, so I have no idea how that would change my mind.
I don't want to derail anymore with my personal feelings towards the models. They are way better than what I could do, and still have redeeming qualities.
As for the slow trickle of info coming out. I would rather have everything in front of me to make my choices. That's why I've set my reminder for the final 48hours.
That's not really what he's saying, I think you're reading a little too much in to his comment.
This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.
Which is meaningless when we are talking about a product being offered through Kickstarter. Most people won't see these in person before the campaign ends, so what you are saying is wait until retail? Probably not, but making a purchase on blind faith isn't a lot of peoples' cup of tea.
Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.
There are dozens of models I didn't care for in seeing photos but liked once I saw them in person. I am part of the same game group as Grey Templar and I too got to see the sprues last night. Honestly, I wasn't overly fond of the Epirian Contractors from the pictures (and was planning on using GWIG for them in my games). Holding the sprues in my hands, seeing the crisp detail, the lack of mold lines, and the general aesthetic (those guns look a lot less blocky in person) and my opinion of these jumped quite a bit. I'm still not sold on the heads, just because of the hats, but that's just my opinion, man, and it isn't like there aren't a million companies producing heads for 28 mm models.
I took a couple pics of the sprue, I'll see if I can get them uploaded today.
Don't we already have an image of the Epirian sprue?
This one?
Still just seeing Bob Dole style clenched fists, and stubby, fat arms.
And that picture does the sprue absolutely no justice. The details seem really soft in that pic when they are anything but.
And the arms most remind me of cadian arms, just with more angular shoulder pads.
The only thing I can keep saying is that having seen the actual sprues, my opinion of the epirians went up dramatically (as I said, I wasn't a huge fan before seeing the sprue).
The lack of hands being integrated into the gun itself is also really nice. Putting the gun into the palm will be a little extra work, but I think it results in a much cooler assembly and more options too.
I'm really happy with the quality. I saw them at Salute and it was after that that I decided I'd be pledging for sure.
And man I'm happy I did!
Ok so back on track... the dice are in. Ok so I'm guessing I won't be the only one here thinking that that stretch goal was a bit meh! But heh ho, more dice. I would have preferred custom ones with symbols on (the 6 side, not the 1... dumbass GW) but I am really looking forward to the extra Suppression Markers!
But let's face it, the boxset itself is pretty bang on already!
My main issue with the contractors is that they don't appear to be carrying any spare ammunition. I hope they come with some add on ammo pouches because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.
Tibbsy wrote: As much as I like the contractor models, I have plenty of conversion ideas anyway.
Because that's the best thing about plastic, right? Ease of conversions.
If you don't like the contractors as standard, change them.
Oh I agree completely, 28mm magazine pouches are readily available, but any combat effective troops should have pouches and some sort of webbing to carry them all, they're just not believable without such details and such details should have been included from the initial concept sketches.
I'm in for 2 boxes, but I will be swapping out the contractor models in my force for some of anvil industries unity council marines because they look badass and actually combat effective.
Honestly I don't understand the "you should see them irl" thing that many people are saying. I've never had to see models in real life before to know if I liked them or not. Photos are always enough in my experience. Don't know why this would be different.
You've never experienced that? I thought flames of war's WW2 stuff looked horrifyingly bad based on photos online, but when I finally saw the 15mm scale models in the flesh I was sold on their aesthetic, bought some there and then, and now have three full FoW armies (LW Brits, LWSS and LW Soviet).
Yeah, I've found similar things with any number of models.
Macro photography does tend to distort proportions somewhat. Even just looking at the close up photos compared to the further-away shots from the Salute stand, they look quite different.
Mike712 wrote: My main issue with the contractors is that they don't appear to be carrying any spare ammunition. I hope they come with some add on ammo pouches because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.
I am not worried about that, I have buckets of them in my bits box.
Mike712 wrote: ... because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.
Surely that would depend on how many rounds that magazine holds, no?
If they have sufficient ammunition in one mag for a standard engagement, then carrying extra mags is just carrying extra stuff for no good reason.
The Contractors also aren't actual soldiers. They're mechanics and maintenance men who have access to weaponry in case they get attacked. In which case they may not have enough time to grab extra mags before they're attacked most of the time. And they're certainly not intended to pursue or press the advantage into enemy territory.
Mike712 wrote: ... because to go into battle with only one magazine even if the rounds are small due to being ceaseless is absurd.
Surely that would depend on how many rounds that magazine holds, no?
If they have sufficient ammunition in one mag for a standard engagement, then carrying extra mags is just carrying extra stuff for no good reason.
Being as around 5mm is probably the smallest effective caliber, regardless of the velocity the round travels, plus it's roughly the smallest round that would be effected by magnetic induction and to be combat effective while putting out sustained suppression fire over the course of a skirmish firefight you're looking at somewhere in the region of 300 rounds(what actual troops tend to carry) this seems unlikely. Basic maths tells us that the volume of a 5x10mm projectile is 196.35 mm3 (ignoring the tapered point) times this by 300, gives us a necessary magazine volume of 58905mm3 or 5890.5cm3, the cube rout of which is 18.05, so you're looking at a single magazine of 18cm by 18cm by 18cm before you even factor in feed mechanism, I guess their guns have been accused of being blocky.... but really? That's a pretty chunky and impractical magazine and certainly not depicted on the models.
Can we just accept that some people might have different tastes to you.
Your wrong about not liking them you have to see then next to the drones
your wrong about not liking them you have to see them unpainted
your wrong about not liking them you have to see the in person
Some people just don't like the designs guys and that's ok. Not everyone likes the same thing
Well, there's the thing... They're not actual troops.
But who knows? Maybe their ammo is some sort of space-saving, expanding polymer. Maybe they're resupplied as necessary by aerial drone. Maybe their rifles are actually energy weapons, and what looks like a magazine is actually the trooper's water bottle...
Not saying extra gubbins wouldn't be nice. Just not something I see as a big deal, particularly on scifi models.
Well, there's the thing... They're not actual troops.
But who knows? Maybe their ammo is some sort of space-saving, expanding polymer. Maybe they're resupplied as necessary by aerial drone. Maybe their rifles are actually energy weapons, and what looks like a magazine is actually the trooper's water bottle...
Not saying extra gubbins wouldn't be nice. Just not something I see as a big deal, particularly on scifi models.
No not actual troops, but suppression fire is a key feature of the game, suppression fire demands high volumes of continuous fire output, for suppression fire you need LOTS of ammo.
Well their guns are not energy weapons that is for certain, as it has already been stated that they are magnetic induction type weapons, hence the term maglock.
Expanding polymers are out, the round has to be of ferrous nature due to the magnetic technology used.
Resupply drones are semi plausible I guess, but realistically would never be practical.
Remember this is supposed to be hard sifi so this sort of stuff needs proper scientific explanation, or it becomes pure sifi fantasy.
The bullets are metal, otherwise they wouldn't work with the magnetic acceleration rifles.
No aerial resupply drones were mentioned.
They aren't energy weapons, the books say they aren't.
Unless you'd have us dismiss the much touted books that seem to have been purpose developed to help sell people on the setting (and they do, at least me).
But I think your maybes and whatifs are kind of silly when they specifically developed the fluff books ahead of time and in which the contractors live on a barracks and seem like they'd have fairly uniform gear. I mean sure they seem to do a lot of mechanic work on the side... but still.
Just because you love a thing... it doesn't necessitate that any and all criticism of that thing is bad/wrong/etc.
Contractors could probably use some kit. Space marines don't have it either though so its not exactly like the MEdge models would be the first guilty parties. Some people don't like painting busy models and leaving off the kit leaves those people free to leave it, and people like me to pile on the gubbins.
But the sentiment that SAS/MEdge can Do No Wrong that seems supported both by the studio and its vocal supporters here is just... really... offputting. I have a 90 dollar pledge in but the sentiments hereabouts are just driving me away.
Grey Templar wrote: This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.
I've only commented once on the models as they aren't to my taste but I can't leave this uncontested. Whilst I know there are those that like the miniatures, I saw these in the flesh at Salute and was even more disappointed with them than previously. Whilst the shoulder pads aren't as bad as the photos make out, the photos don't do justice to how awful the hats, blocky arms and ridiculous guns are.
Some people like these miniatures and think they are good. But for some of us even seeing them in person is not enough to convince us they are worth the money and that is a perfectly valid opinion to hold.
This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.
Which is meaningless when we are talking about a product being offered through Kickstarter. Most people won't see these in person before the campaign ends, so what you are saying is wait until retail? Probably not, but making a purchase on blind faith isn't a lot of peoples' cup of tea.
Then what are those people (the ones without blind faith) even doing on Kickstarter?
I mean, really. "Here's my money. Come back in a year, or two years, and give me something resembling what you're talking about right now."
This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.
Which is meaningless when we are talking about a product being offered through Kickstarter. Most people won't see these in person before the campaign ends, so what you are saying is wait until retail? Probably not, but making a purchase on blind faith isn't a lot of peoples' cup of tea.
Then what are those people (the ones without blind faith) even doing on Kickstarter?
I mean, really. "Here's my money. Come back in a year, or two years, and give me something resembling what you're talking about right now."
Presumably people on Kickstarter are backing items they like (without needing to hold the item to be certain).
Ozy and Grey Templar are speaking to the folks who don't like what they see, and aren't backing, and you are trying to win us over with claims of, "trust us, guys these minis are cool." Sorry. I don't trust you. I don't believe you. And I am not going to part with money because you changed your mind after seeing the sprues in person. That is a leap of faith that seems absurd to make.
Insaniak, I didn't mean that as a personal attack against you, more for the thread at large. Just seems to me like people can't offer negative criticism without someone coming around and dismissing it. That's all. Probably too grumpy today to be constructively posting so I'll head out.
We love the depth of thought over the Epirian ammo storage situation
The Epirians have two pouches, one on each leg. The magazine which slots into the bottom of the rifle is the combined energy source and caseless ammo container. The caseless ammo is driven by the Maglock mechanism, not conventional explosives, so a lot more can fit into a smaller space, and even nuts and bolts and other ferrous metal junk will fire somewhat functionally through the gun in a pinch (but with next to no accuracy of course).
Note this from the rifle description posted in the KS updates a while ago:
The caseless rounds used in the assault rifle are designed to be interchangeable with many other weapons systems including those mounted on drone units
As such, the actual reloadable bullet elements are smaller and inserted into the rear of the master magazine. The bullets run out before the energy supply, so rather than carrying more than is needed, the bullet elements of the magazine are ejected and replaced within the larger 'full' magazine itself. Because of this standardisation around a small shape, contractors and drones can resupply each other without having to reload full magazines.
The fact that the spruces at salute had no mold likes really doesn't mean anything about quality. Remember these are the first runs of the spruces off the machine. Give them 1000 shots and then take a look, or 10000 shots, look at GW models in comparison, the first models that are produced look great, but I've gotten tactical and assault spruces which have terrible mood lines from wear. What needs to be judged is overall design and some
Theophony wrote: Give them 1000 shots and then take a look, or 10000 shots
Our contracts guarantee our tools for 100,000 shots, and if there is any notable decay including mould lines and flash, we get it retooled at our supplier's expense. Low mould lines are something we can promise for sure!
This just really drives home my point, you really need to see them in person.
Which is meaningless when we are talking about a product being offered through Kickstarter. Most people won't see these in person before the campaign ends, so what you are saying is wait until retail? Probably not, but making a purchase on blind faith isn't a lot of peoples' cup of tea.
Then what are those people (the ones without blind faith) even doing on Kickstarter?
I mean, really. "Here's my money. Come back in a year, or two years, and give me something resembling what you're talking about right now."
Presumably people on Kickstarter are backing items they like (without needing to hold the item to be certain).
Ozy and Grey Templar are speaking to the folks who don't like what they see, and aren't backing, and you are trying to win us over with claims of, "trust us, guys these minis are cool." Sorry. I don't trust you. I don't believe you. And I am not going to part with money because you changed your mind after seeing the sprues in person. That is a leap of faith that seems absurd to make.
*edit sorry solkan, got you mixed up with Ozy.
Look, I'm someone who didn't like the Epirian contractors based on the photos I saw. Then I was lucky enough to see the sprues in person, and all my misgivings about them (save the heads, but like I said, there is a plethora of alt heads out there so I'm not really bothered) went away. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes the models is wrong, just that my dislike of the models changed once I got to hold them and yours might too. I don't get why that is such a hard concept.
Look, I'm someone who didn't like the Epirian contractors based on the photos I saw. Then I was lucky enough to see the sprues in person, and all my misgivings about them (save the heads, but like I said, there is a plethora of alt heads out there so I'm not really bothered) went away. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes the models is wrong, just that my dislike of the models changed once I got to hold them and yours might too. I don't get why that is such a hard concept.
The concept isn't hard. What is problematic is the manner in which you and Gray Templar are presenting that information. You guys got to see the sprues in person and are urging others who have issues with the models to trust that they will feel the same way you did after seeing the models in person. Well that is great, except that unless others have an "in" like you two did to get a sneak preview they will have to buy based on the unflattering photos shown thus far and hope for the best. That isn't a great option for the vast majority of people who will only see these models when fulfillment occurs at the end of this year or sometime next year. Surely you can understand the push back.
It is awesome that your gaming group got a sneak preview. What about everyone else? The rest of us are left with the photos on Kickstarter and the opinions of two strangers from the internet (who may be completely biased since they apparently know people with early release samples, so both your and Gray's opinions are suspect right off the bat) to assure us that what we are being asked to buy is actually decent.
Theophony wrote: , but I've gotten tactical and assault spruces which have terrible mood lines from wear.
I believe the really bad mould lines on some GW sprues are more often from misaligned or badly made moulds than from wear, as I've received brand new models with incredibly bad flash or shear.
Either way, wear showing on plastic models is going to require far, far more than a thousand shots.
Look, I'm someone who didn't like the Epirian contractors based on the photos I saw. Then I was lucky enough to see the sprues in person, and all my misgivings about them (save the heads, but like I said, there is a plethora of alt heads out there so I'm not really bothered) went away. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes the models is wrong, just that my dislike of the models changed once I got to hold them and yours might too. I don't get why that is such a hard concept.
The concept isn't hard. What is problematic is the manner in which you and Gray Templar are presenting that information. You guys got to see the sprues in person and are urging others who have issues with the models to trust that they will feel the same way you did after seeing the models in person. Well that is great, except that unless others have an "in" like you two did to get a sneak preview they will have to buy based on the unflattering photos shown thus far and hope for the best. That isn't a great option for the vast majority of people who will only see these models when fulfillment occurs at the end of this year or sometime next year. Surely you can understand the push back.
It is awesome that your gaming group got a sneak preview. What about everyone else? The rest of us are left with the photos on Kickstarter and the opinions of two strangers from the internet (who may be completely biased since they apparently know people with early release samples, so both your and Gray's opinions are suspect right off the bat) to assure us that what we are being asked to buy is actually decent.
Do you see why there is resistance now?
Not really. Just don't buy it? That is an option you know. You have the information you have, the pics are in front of you. If you don't like them, and you are so unwilling to hear first hand accounts from people who have seen them in person, because they have to be biased lol... What is SAS supposed to do? Parachute sprues over the deep amazon and zimbabwe and hope some random human finds them and posts a review of them on the internet in the next couple of weeks? By that logic anyone who see's them is getting privileged treatment so they must be bought or biased.
So, assuming that is the case, then: you have the information you have, and the pics in front of you. Decide. It's totally cool not to buy. It's also ok to criticize what you don't like too even if you are not buying (assuming you won't make a habit of posting the exact same points on an hourly basis, at a certain point, that is just spam, general statement not directed at you). But being angry you haven't been convinced yet is not cool. Attacking people for saying they saw them like they are bought or privileged or both is not cool. At no point did either of them say 'I changed my mind, therefore so must you'. They just said THEY changed THEIR minds, fwiw, nothing more.
It doesn't sound like you are even on the fence above though... like zero actual room, your mind sounds pretty damned made up. If it is, what is it exactly that you are looking for here?
The concept isn't hard. What is problematic is the manner in which you and Gray Templar are presenting that information. You guys got to see the sprues in person and are urging others who have issues with the models to trust that they will feel the same way you did after seeing the models in person. Well that is great, except that unless others have an "in" like you two did to get a sneak preview they will have to buy based on the unflattering photos shown thus far and hope for the best. That isn't a great option for the vast majority of people who will only see these models when fulfillment occurs at the end of this year or sometime next year. Surely you can understand the push back.
It is awesome that your gaming group got a sneak preview. What about everyone else? The rest of us are left with the photos on Kickstarter and the opinions of two strangers from the internet (who may be completely biased since they apparently know people with early release samples, so both your and Gray's opinions are suspect right off the bat) to assure us that what we are being asked to buy is actually decent.
Do you see why there is resistance now?
No need to bust out the tinfoil hats. This isn't a case of "trust me, you are going to LOOOVE these models." This is a case of, "I was like you, then I saw the models and I like them a lot more now." If you don't believe me, I really couldn't care less, I'm just sharing my thoughts and opinions based on actually seeing the sprues in person. If that helps someone pull the trigger on backing, great, if not, I think I'll manage to survive. I was already backing this at the $90 level, I figured I'd just shelve the contractors and replace them with other models. Now, I'm actually more excited about them than I am the Karists.
My opinion has hardly been bought. I had fully backed long before I got to handle the sprues. It just made me even more excited about my choice to back, and was confirmation that my money will be well spent.
If people don't like the design, they don't like the design. I'm just saying that the pictures don't do the sprues justice so dismissing them off hand is a little unfair. Its not like I have any ulterior motives to get people to pledge aside from ensuring there will be a community for it.
Okay, I really like the robots, and I'm excited at the prospect of the rules, but the human figures from BOTH sides appear to be deformed at the shoulder. Both factions seem to have arms that start out some distance away from their bodies.
The details all look great. The sprues look good and it's clear that they've had a lot of work put into them, but the figures look anatomically improbable. Especially the heavily-armored guys - the tempest elites. Those guys have shoulders that are a good hand's width away from their bodies.
I'd love for someone to show me pictures that show that I'm wrong. The ones on the Kickstarter aren't filling me with hope.
The Epirians have two pouches, one on each leg. The magazine which slots into the bottom of the rifle is the combined energy source and caseless ammo container. The caseless ammo is driven by the Maglock mechanism, not conventional explosives, so a lot more can fit into a smaller space, and even nuts and bolts and other ferrous metal junk will fire somewhat functionally through the gun in a pinch (but with next to no accuracy of course).
Note this from the rifle description posted in the KS updates a while ago:
The caseless rounds used in the assault rifle are designed to be interchangeable with many other weapons systems including those mounted on drone units
As such, the actual reloadable bullet elements are smaller and inserted into the rear of the master magazine. The bullets run out before the energy supply, so rather than carrying more than is needed, the bullet elements of the magazine are ejected and replaced within the larger 'full' magazine itself. Because of this standardisation around a small shape, contractors and drones can resupply each other without having to reload full magazines.
Have you got any concept sketches and drawing detail of how this works? I'm such a nerd for this sort of thing and I'm sure others would be interested too!
The Epirians have two pouches, one on each leg. The magazine which slots into the bottom of the rifle is the combined energy source and caseless ammo container. The caseless ammo is driven by the Maglock mechanism, not conventional explosives, so a lot more can fit into a smaller space, and even nuts and bolts and other ferrous metal junk will fire somewhat functionally through the gun in a pinch (but with next to no accuracy of course).
Note this from the rifle description posted in the KS updates a while ago:
The caseless rounds used in the assault rifle are designed to be interchangeable with many other weapons systems including those mounted on drone units
As such, the actual reloadable bullet elements are smaller and inserted into the rear of the master magazine. The bullets run out before the energy supply, so rather than carrying more than is needed, the bullet elements of the magazine are ejected and replaced within the larger 'full' magazine itself. Because of this standardisation around a small shape, contractors and drones can resupply each other without having to reload full magazines.
Small projectile magazines or "stripper clips" that can be stored in the contractors leg pouches, that slot into the large combination magazine and energy cell, works for me, thanks for clearing that up.
We added this video to the Kickstarter page a couple of days ago, but had so much content to promote that we didnt get around to posting this until just now!
This video explains the concepts which make Maelstrom's Edge unique and distinctive. The content is similar to the overview PDF we put out previously, but is a lot clearer and easier to digest with visual queues!
Today's update on Kickstarter has some important information for those on $1 pledges and those interested in terrain-only pledges - due to the way Kickstarter works, we can only send our post-Kickstarter survey to those who have selected a pledge, so we've added a $1 placeholder pledge for this purpose.
If you've joined the Kickstarter but not selected a pledge, please use this $1 pledge level to ensure we can contact you to make sure you get what you want.
We've also got some sneak peaks at some spaceship concept art! Thanks again to everyone who's supported us so far.
I just want to know if we can start talking about the 28mm Heavy Gear/ Mech game with these guys in it.
Questions- Are there going to be vehicles?
Is there an interactive website, where we are supposed to track the Maelstrom, get scenarios, get modeling tips, plans etc. for the game?
How many other aliens are we looking at in game?
How does production/ staying power look for this game? Are you just going to crank out a couple thousand units and call it a day, or are you looking at long term production/ business?
What sort of characters are we looking at in game?
That such a thing would exist in their long-range plans is somewhat...expected? If you have a sci-fi universe dealing with space travel and combat, it'd be more surprising to NOT have plans for such a thing.
They have said that they're not planning on doing anything other than this squad-based game for a long while though, so I wouldn't expect firm talk about it for many years unless this explodes massively. Even then, it'd just be changing from "many years" to "a few years". The concept art is being shown to give people an idea of the universe and expand the setting. Concept art is (comparatively) easy and cheap to produce compared to a model, but it does fill in the skeleton of the world to see how things get from A to B. At this point, it's window-dressing to help with immersion and not a product roadmap unless I've horribly misunderstood statements by legoburner and yakface.
I think that like with anything, if there is enough demand things will happen. I think most would agree that most wargamers or at least a very respectable percentage have interest overlap with other table top games, and with a resurgence in popularity for ship mechanics it doesn't seem like a stretch that any of them would be taking a 2nd look right now.
I think X-wing was a kick in the pants to a lot of people in the market that 'simpler', non-terrestrial games can catch fire.
I am also noticing a big update of space combat in the videogame sphere, and about damn time as the genre has been neglected for a very, very long time if you ask me!
In any case, I think few would argue that the importance of ships in the fluff as presented would be more than enough to justify exploring the idea at some point when and if the circumstances are right . As X-wing also demonstrated, a strong IP to sit the game on top of sure doesn't hurt!
MLaw wrote:Why is there spaceship concept art? Is there already going to be a spaceship game based in this universe?
Krinsath has it right, we have images of cities and planets as well, but are not planning any city or planet models just yet! The spaceships are just part of the aesthetic which we want to create so that when people are thinking about their forces, they can consider how they got to their planets, what they are fighting for, etc. It also adds great illustrative depth to the fiction which is strong enough to be an effectively distinct range of products.
Grot 6 wrote:I'm all over it.
I just want to know if we can start talking about the 28mm Heavy Gear/ Mech game with these guys in it.
We'll definitely support any fan-based initiatives for spinoff games, but our focus is on Maelstrom's Edge itself.
Grot 6 wrote:
Questions- Are there going to be vehicles?
There are some early designs, but nothing will be made in plastic for at least a couple of years.
Grot 6 wrote:
Is there an interactive website, where we are supposed to track the Maelstrom, get scenarios, get modeling tips, plans etc. for the game?
http://www.maelstromsedge.com will be the home of everything with scenarios, modeling and painting guides, etc. The content is quite spartan there at the moment as all of our updating efforts are focused on the kickstarter, but post-KS that will be the place to be.
Grot 6 wrote:
How many other aliens are we looking at in game?
There are loads in a future faction - we aim to have a roughly star wars level of aliens in our universe, it's not all human.
Grot 6 wrote: How does production/ staying power look for this game? Are you just going to crank out a couple thousand units and call it a day, or are you looking at long term production/ business?
The entire 8 man core team are in it for the long term and are all willing to go without pay as and when needed to keep things moving forwards as it is a long term dream for us all to be able to build something on this scale. That means that all surplus cash can be pushed back into models rather than out into salaries until our production schedule is consistent and even. Every single thing we've done is focused around the long term, with our general plans stretching a good eight years and the next two years of development fully locked in.
Grot 6 wrote:
What sort of characters are we looking at in game?
TBA, but generally not much in this first year as we are going 100% plastic, and the demand for plastic named characters is pretty low, even for GW. We are exploring a bunch of really interesting options on that front though so stay tuned!
I had a question about the rules. Will the weapons in the game be abstracted, like in Song of Blades and Heroes or others using its engine, or will it be more like Infinity where different weapons can have different attachments and ammunition? Basically, will the weapon options on the sprues be purely cosmetic, or will they actually serve an in-game function?
The $50 Everything but the Models pledge is exactly that.
You get the rulebook, tokens, dice, bases, unit cards, mission cards. Its basically the $90 level for stuff, but without the models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barzam wrote: I had a question about the rules. Will the weapons in the game be abstracted, like in Song of Blades and Heroes or others using its engine, or will it be more like Infinity where different weapons can have different attachments and ammunition? Basically, will the weapon options on the sprues be purely cosmetic, or will they actually serve an in-game function?
I believe the weapon options like the underslung grenade launcher or the little raygun do indeed have their own rules.
MLaw wrote: Why is there spaceship concept art? Is there already going to be a spaceship game based in this universe?
It helps to sell the overall style and scale of the universe. Knowing what their spaceships look like can give us an idea of what to go for in style when kit bashing landing craft, hangars, corridors or construction yards using our handy terrain sprues. It's important to establish a look for the brand, so that if we're playing in the ME universe, and a character needs to go to a ship, has block, hot dog stand, toilet, whatever, we have a clear picture of it in our mind's eye. You know, instead of picturing some other company's terrain.
I love, love, love the look of the spaceships shown so far, and their art is slick.
Are there plans in the future for any alien factions based on a single alien race, rather than a "star wars" mix of various aliens and humans? Dreamforge is currently working on the Shadokesh, 40K has the Tau, the Eldar, the Orks, the Tyranids, the Necrons, etc.
If not, is it because you consider a monolithic alien race faction a financial risk? Too old school? Too provincial? Too fattening?
How much will models cost after kickstarted if we want to expand? (Obviously it will take a long time to paint all the models before getting more, but it would still be nice to know. Also, the model count seems slightly skewed towards the Epirian faction. Will there be a points system so you don't take everything in the box, or will some Karist units be slightly stronger with the Kaddar Nova and big angel model balancing it out?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: How much will models cost after kickstarted if we want to expand? (Obviously it will take a long time to paint all the models before getting more, but it would still be nice to know. Also, the model count seems slightly skewed towards the Epirian faction. Will there be a points system so you don't take everything in the box, or will some Karist units be slightly stronger with the Kaddar Nova and big angel model balancing it out?
They said the set is balanced out against each side.
The Karist stuff seems, and this holds with the few stats they have shown, to be a little stronger individually. I'll bet the Shadow Walkers are super fast and deadly. And the adult Angel is probably pretty durable so it counters out the Hunters and Scarecrows. And there is definitely a point system. Plus there is the mechanic where you can bring back units that have been destroyed, so I'll bet there is some balancing done with that in mind too.
As for the retail prices, they did say it depends on the ultimate success of the kickstarter. If they have more initial volume they can have a lower retail price when things hit store shelves.
According to the little cards there the basic Contractor squad is worth 10 points and a Karist trooper squad is 13 points(having 1 higher AV, Skill, and way better Willpower, and a special rule)
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: As such, the actual reloadable bullet elements are smaller and inserted into the rear of the master magazine. The bullets run out before the energy supply, so rather than carrying more than is needed, the bullet elements of the magazine are ejected and replaced within the larger 'full' magazine itself. Because of this standardisation around a small shape, contractors and drones can resupply each other without having to reload full magazines.
Have you got any concept sketches and drawing detail of how this works? I'm such a nerd for this sort of thing and I'm sure others would be interested too!
Only the writing to date. We have an ex-US military core team member as well as high level general nerds and physicists, so you can rest assured we've spent far more time than is healthy designing sci-fi weapons which are believable and interesting!
Vermonter wrote:Are there plans in the future for any alien factions based on a single alien race, rather than a "star wars" mix of various aliens and humans? Dreamforge is currently working on the Shadokesh, 40K has the Tau, the Eldar, the Orks, the Tyranids, the Necrons, etc.
If not, is it because you consider a monolithic alien race faction a financial risk? Too old school? Too provincial? Too fattening?
What?
They are on the drawing board for the future, but we want to slowly drip into them as it would be very easy to get them wrong and create something which only a very small small subset of our fanbase are interested in using. There are entire alien civilisations out there towards the galactic rim though!
CREEEEEEEEED wrote:How much will models cost after kickstarted if we want to expand? (Obviously it will take a long time to paint all the models before getting more, but it would still be nice to know. Also, the model count seems slightly skewed towards the Epirian faction. Will there be a points system so you don't take everything in the box, or will some Karist units be slightly stronger with the Kaddar Nova and big angel model balancing it out?
It is too early to finalise specific pricing, but we'll be aiming to keep things as cheap as possible while still being able to sustain the project over the long term. They will definitely be strongly competitive with other offerings in the wider wargaming world, and we certainly dont want to be labelled as expensive. We'd all much sooner have people able to afford and collect forces from multiple factions than be locked in to one faction because it costs too much to expand!
In today's Kickstarter update, we have a free audiobook, Transit by Stephen Gaskell, one of our lead writers. It's available as a stream or mp3 download from the Kickstarter update:
We hope you enjoy it! We have more stories to come over the course of the Kickstarter and we have lined up the recording of four more audiobooks should we hit the 55K stretch goal.
Vermonter wrote:Are there plans in the future for any alien factions based on a single alien race, rather than a "star wars" mix of various aliens and humans? Dreamforge is currently working on the Shadokesh, 40K has the Tau, the Eldar, the Orks, the Tyranids, the Necrons, etc.
If not, is it because you consider a monolithic alien race faction a financial risk? Too old school? Too provincial? Too fattening?
What?
They are on the drawing board for the future, but we want to slowly drip into them as it would be very easy to get them wrong and create something which only a very small small subset of our fanbase are interested in using. There are entire alien civilisations out there towards the galactic rim though!
Out of curiosity are you looking at the easy option of aliens in the vein of Star Trek / Star Wars / 40K (essentially humans with pie shaped prosthetics on their faces) or are you looking at doing something unique? It would be nice to see some really Alien aliens.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: How much will models cost after kickstarted if we want to expand? (Obviously it will take a long time to paint all the models before getting more, but it would still be nice to know. Also, the model count seems slightly skewed towards the Epirian faction. Will there be a points system so you don't take everything in the box, or will some Karist units be slightly stronger with the Kaddar Nova and big angel model balancing it out?
Yes, there is a points system, and as already mentioned, the Karists tend to be a little more of the 'elite' faction compared to the Epirian units that make up this initial offering. However, the final point values have not been finalized yet, so a bit of this is still up in the air pending some beta rules testing post-KS. In a perfect world the two forces in the box set will be 100% equally matched, but there are other variables involved, like what models make sense to fit into the box. For example, we're including 2 Hunters for the Epirians and only 1 adult Angel, because the Angel is a bigger model than the Hunters. So while we can definitely try to tweak the rules to make the Angel be as powerful as two Hunters combined, we also don't want to go overboard with forcing units to behave more or less powerfully then it feels like they 'should be' just to get the initial box set forces completely equalized.
So in the end, it may likely be the case where if you want to play with *just* all the models from a single starter boxed set, then the Karists will probably have to take all the most expensive unit options and the Epirians would have to take the least expensive unit options to have them be completely equal...but as mentioned above, none of that is finalized as of yet.
Looking forward to hearing the audio book. What's the runtime?
I finally read "Shipyard" last night. Definitely liked what I read. I really like the apocalyptic setting, so I think I'm going to be enjoying the fiction just as much as the game.
Henry wrote: Out of curiosity are you looking at the easy option of aliens in the vein of Star Trek / Star Wars / 40K (essentially humans with pie shaped prosthetics on their faces) or are you looking at doing something unique? It would be nice to see some really Alien aliens.
I've said it before, but "rubber forehead aliens" are a good opportunity to get more bang for your buck with your plastic kits. Think Asari and human women from Mass Effect: if they're using the same equipment, all you need is an extra half-dozen heads on the sprue and the one kit can be used to make an all-human army, an all-alien army, a mixed force or two opposing forces.
Henry wrote: Out of curiosity are you looking at the easy option of aliens in the vein of Star Trek / Star Wars / 40K (essentially humans with pie shaped prosthetics on their faces) or are you looking at doing something unique? It would be nice to see some really Alien aliens.
I've said it before, but "rubber forehead aliens" are a good opportunity to get more bang for your buck with your plastic kits. Think Asari and human women from Mass Effect: if they're using the same equipment, all you need is an extra half-dozen heads on the sprue and the one kit can be used to make an all-human army, an all-alien army, a mixed force or two opposing forces.
Like with the wargames factory shock trooper sprue?
So, assuming that is the case, then: you have the information you have, and the pics in front of you. Decide. It's totally cool not to buy. It's also ok to criticize what you don't like too even if you are not buying (assuming you won't make a habit of posting the exact same points on an hourly basis, at a certain point, that is just spam, general statement not directed at you). But being angry you haven't been convinced yet is not cool. Attacking people for saying they saw them like they are bought or privileged or both is not cool. At no point did either of them say 'I changed my mind, therefore so must you'. They just said THEY changed THEIR minds, fwiw, nothing more.
Oh, come on MajorTom. Please don't use hyperbole. Where am I attacking people?
I was responding to both Grey Templar and Ozy's posts which appeared to be aimed directly at the doubters.
Let's look at this post which set this ball rolling. Bold emphasis mine:
Grey Templar wrote: Well today I got to look at some of the infantry sprues, and they're frankly stunning.
Anyone who has doubts about the Epirians needs to stop, because the details on those guys is exquisite. I'd say they're just as good as what Wyrd is putting out, if not better. There is so much fine detail that isn't coming across on the pictures they have on the KS page.
I can only hope the mechs are half as good as these guys, because the Epirian's themselves knocked it out of the park. They'll give a nice challenge to any painter.
According to Grey us doubters should just stop doubting because HE has seen the quality and we just don't know what we are talking about. Condescending a bit, no?
Then there is this gem which slags off the artist who painted the studio models:
Grey Templar wrote: Meh, if you don't like the sculpts thats fair, but really the sculpts are amazing. The detail will let you do a lot, and they're quite posable.
The guns themselves are really impressive. They lose a lot of the blockyness in person.
Paint also can cover some of the issues. I think the stock paint jobs aren't showing the true impressiveness of the miniatures.
They're way better than Guardsmen, thats for sure.
So, now not only is the detail not being appreciated, but the paint jobs aren't doing the models service. Knowing who painted those studio models I can say that Grey's comment is naive at best, and is dripping with fanboyism.
I'll concede that Ozy was lumped unfairly in with Grey as his posts are more neutral, but Grey's posts above are very condescending.
My post may been many things, but it was certainly not condescending. I was a little overexcited after seeing the sprues in person I'll grant, but seriously my post isn't saying what you claim its saying. Just giving my opinion dude. No need to get all riled up over it.
And seriously, the paint comment is not a disparagement on whoever painted the models. Its a known fact that sometimes a particular scheme can exaggerate parts of the model. That doesn't mean the person is a bad painter, they're not, its just maybe they didn't pick the absolute best paint scheme they could have. I'm not saying they're horrible people or anything.
Yes it is. At most all that should have provoked was a "I'm still not convinced man, sorry I just can't take your word for it" instead of what was basically "You're a duchebag and have probably just been paid off to say nice things"
Grey Templar wrote: Yes it is. At most all that should have provoked was a "I'm still not convinced man, sorry I just can't take your word for it" instead of what was basically "You're a duchebag and have probably just been paid off to say nice things"
And your initial post could have simply said, "Wow, I got to see these in person and I've changed my mind about the sculpts."
But it didn't. You told the doubters that they should stop doubting because you had a change of opinion based off of an exclusive sneak preview you and your gaming group got. How did you get that preview? One wonders. Surely if you have connections to someone with early release models it brings into question your reliability as an observer to the sculpts. You got to see them early. What else did you get? Did you get to keep some? Did you get to see other materials? Would any of those special privileges inform your glowing review of the models that you posted telling the doubters to "stop" doubting? One definitely wonders.
So now that we have that covered I think this tangent can die.
I'd like to see the sprues for sure. The shoulder guns seem a little oversized, but thats minor nitpicking. It should be an easy conversion to be in another spot, like the other arm or something.
I'd like to see the sprues for sure. The shoulder guns seem a little oversized, but thats minor nitpicking. It should be an easy conversion to be in another spot, like the other arm or something.
I do agree, I'm not a big fan of how skinny they are. But I guess that's why they are called Scarecrows.
Weapon location (with any hope) will be movable. I would love to run them megaman style. replace the right arm with the cannon, and paint them all blue.
Look, I'm someone who didn't like the Epirian contractors based on the photos I saw. Then I was lucky enough to see the sprues in person, and all my misgivings about them (save the heads, but like I said, there is a plethora of alt heads out there so I'm not really bothered) went away. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes the models is wrong, just that my dislike of the models changed once I got to hold them and yours might too. I don't get why that is such a hard concept.
That's cool, but without getting into the argument you guys are all having, that's not enough for me to go in for $100+, because I might not like them once I see them in hand. I totally respect that you went from dislike to like, but there's no guarantee that any of the rest of us who don't like the designs based on the photos would change our minds as you have done, so it remains a big $100+ risk to take. For me personally, it's too much. I just assume you guys would have seen them at Salute, rather than at a super sekret cabal meeting in the Spiral Arm bunker. (though I could be wrong there, too!)
I think you guys would probably come to an agreement on that, but the internet and the read-in tonal quality of typed words have probably caused some crossed wires.
Speaking personally - for me to buy figures I don't like the look of in pictures and be sold over by seeing them in person, I tend to need to see them in person which in this case would mean either making it to Australian Retail (which might not happen - I'm dubious about it being big enough to become a thing that's played locally - unless I'm the one who buys it and cheerleads my gaming group into it, which will cost a lot more than 1 boxed set) or lots of people doing amazing things with them in pics online (which probably will happen). I'm sure it's still okay for me to follow the thread with interest and wish the project my best thoughts, though - right?
Plus the interchangeable ammo between pistols, rifles, and some drone armaments.
The alliteration just worked in this case.
