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Post by: Quarterdime
To run a formation do all of the units need to be deployed together? Or could you keep some in reserve to deep strike?
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Post by: Experiment 626
 vostroyan second born wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:Red_Drake wrote:It's super frustrating that they updated the demons book with new relics powers and traits, but didn't address the outdated daemon of tzeentch rule
We got exactly the same treatment that Guard got in the Tau campaign books.
This is nothing more than a cheap Band-Aid, likely so that GW can just ignore us entirely until 8th ed or whatever Age of Sicarius styled BS they decide to pull.
You can not compare the demons update to the am update. The cadia detachment is 100% overpriced and 90% useless. Demons get some nice things.
Guard got some nice formations. Our Daemoncurion is unplayable for the most part, (Slaanesh, maaaaybe Nurgle is doable), outside of 2k+ points games.
The relics are 1 per model, so there's no stacking for any really amazing synergies.
Our new psychic lores are still hamstrung by the basic rules forbidding us to take more than half our powers from the God-specific tables. This mean that Slaany & Nurgle Heralds only have a 16% chance at landing one of the better powers now! (Tzeentch gets a mediocre around 40%'ish chance, due to possible re-rolls for a duplicate power)
This release is on par for a Chaos release in general; a bitter taste, and a feeling of complete disappointment as one realises that Loyalists get everything we could possibly want, while we get stuck with 'lolz!sacred numbers!lolz'.
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Post by: CrownAxe
What does the Soul Grinder formation do?
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Post by: matphat
So, am I seeing this correctly?
It looks like the only way to get the new Daemon rules is to either buy the $74 Wulfen codex or the $155 limited ed. Daemon Codex with the extra rules included?
God fething damn GW, that seems outrageous even for you.
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Post by: GoonBandito
Wait for the cheap digital supplement to come out, like Black Library did with the Cadian Supplement
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Post by: vostroyan second born
Experiment 626 wrote: vostroyan second born wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:Red_Drake wrote:It's super frustrating that they updated the demons book with new relics powers and traits, but didn't address the outdated daemon of tzeentch rule
We got exactly the same treatment that Guard got in the Tau campaign books.
This is nothing more than a cheap Band-Aid, likely so that GW can just ignore us entirely until 8th ed or whatever Age of Sicarius styled BS they decide to pull.
You can not compare the demons update to the am update. The cadia detachment is 100% overpriced and 90% useless. Demons get some nice things.
Guard got some nice formations. Our Daemoncurion is unplayable for the most part, (Slaanesh, maaaaybe Nurgle is doable), outside of 2k+ points games.
The relics are 1 per model, so there's no stacking for any really amazing synergies.
Our new psychic lores are still hamstrung by the basic rules forbidding us to take more than half our powers from the God-specific tables. This mean that Slaany & Nurgle Heralds only have a 16% chance at landing one of the better powers now! (Tzeentch gets a mediocre around 40%'ish chance, due to possible re-rolls for a duplicate power)
This release is on par for a Chaos release in general; a bitter taste, and a feeling of complete disappointment as one realises that Loyalists get everything we could possibly want, while we get stuck with 'lolz!sacred numbers!lolz'.
chaos demons get Demonic Corruption "Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed." and AM loses objective securde at infantry except infantry veterans in the vet formation.
Demonic Corruption alone is better than the whole cadia supplement ...
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Post by: CrownAxe
To all the people complaining that the Daemon Incurion is too expensive you do realize that the Forgehost is an Auxillary formation too. Based on its picture its going to be at least 3 Soul Grinders who are at their cheapest (no upgrades and Daemon Khorne) is only 405 points. If you go cheap on the core formation you can easily fit the Incurion below 1000 pts
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Post by: the_scotsman
vostroyan second born wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:Red_Drake wrote:It's super frustrating that they updated the demons book with new relics powers and traits, but didn't address the outdated daemon of tzeentch rule
We got exactly the same treatment that Guard got in the Tau campaign books.
This is nothing more than a cheap Band-Aid, likely so that GW can just ignore us entirely until 8th ed or whatever Age of Sicarius styled BS they decide to pull.
You can not compare the demons update to the am update. The cadia detachment is 100% overpriced and 90% useless. Demons get some nice things.
The cadia detachment is balls, but the actual formations are good to excellent, and represent far better ways to run most of the units Guard likes.
Just the fact that you can now run as much artillery, Russes, etc that you want without running out of HS slots is a boon in and of itself.
And so many units that simply had no reason ever to be run are now good.. Psykers, Valkyries, Basilisks, Manticores, Vanquisher Russes, Sentinels and Hellhounds have been hitting the table for the first time since the codex hit.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Ok so to get things straight. Warpflame host, from the point I read it, if units benefits from both the heralds loci and its own loci they can get conjuration twice. It says another. Not a different. It says "if such a unit is also affected by another locus,they receive both benefits." Or am I just greedy..?
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Post by: Quarterdime
 matphat wrote:So, am I seeing this correctly?
It looks like the only way to get the new Daemon rules is to either buy the $74 Wulfen codex or the $155 limited ed. Daemon Codex with the extra rules included?
God fething damn GW, that seems outrageous even for you.
I'm sure that's just for right now to help move product. They'll come out with a card pack that has the new objectives and psychic powers. But as for the campaign rules, the formations, and the warlord traits? Yeah, I'd bet money that you're right. Automatically Appended Next Post: Holy gak... the Grimoire Collection sold out in 4 and a half hours...
Glad I got one. 
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Post by: CrownAxe
 avedominusnox wrote:Ok so to get things straight. Warpflame host, from the point I read it, if units benefits from both the heralds loci and its own loci they can get conjuration twice. It says another. Not a different. It says "if such a unit is also affected by another locus,they receive both benefits." Or am I just greedy..?
I'm pretty sure "another locus" keep it from stacking duplicates
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Post by: zendral
Ultimately I would still like to wait to have all the rules in my hands but man....I swear someone at gw hates Tzeentch. I've been a Tzeentch/thousand sons fan since 2nd ed. And in the last 10 years I've not seen such blandness. When I heard about new psychic powers and formations I was stoked. But here we go again. "What should we do with Tzeentch? Isn't he the God of fire or something? Sure" product: Tzeentch lore =lol fire and feel no pain. What happens to manipulation/deceit? Such lazy sloppy rules.
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Post by: Sersi
avedominusnox wrote:Ok so to get things straight. Warpflame host, from the point I read it, if units benefits from both the heralds loci and its own loci they can get conjuration twice. It says another. Not a different. It says "if such a unit is also affected by another locus,they receive both benefits." Or am I just greedy..?
I think they mean if you have more than one formation within 12" of each other. Since heralds you purchase in a CAD for instance can't join the formations. Man did we get screwed on these formation. Not only did we not get an additional bonus like say double demi companies. We didn't get any mini formations that count toward the Decurion requirements. Well chaos I guess....and yet so how SW players are complaining. LOL. Irony! 
I also love how Khorne has like a bajillion formations and data sheets while the other gods get nothing! Remember those warhammer world exclusives? Yes, I know GW trying to "fix" Khorne which sold poorly because the botched the codex rules.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Who says you can't join?
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Post by: Experiment 626
vostroyan second born wrote:
chaos demons get Demonic Corruption "Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed." and AM loses objective securde at infantry except infantry veterans in the vet formation.
Demonic Corruption alone is better than the whole cadia supplement ...
You can re-take objectives from Daemons... the point of Daemonic Corruption is that Daemons don't have to baby sit an objective for the entire game, which is really only of amazing to Khorne & Slaanesh since all they want to do is rush forwards and beat face.
Tzeentch gains the least from it, (as Horrors are still at their best when keeping the hell away from the enemy and just blasting them), while Nurgle still doesn't mind squatters in cover. (Nurglings especially!)
And really, the 'cheapest' Daemoncurion we can run is Slaanesh, which is still a minimum of 1070pts, which only gets you;
Slaaherald w/Lv2 + Exalted Locus
6x 10 Daemonettes
3 Khornate Grinders (the worst kind & no shooting attacks!)
That's complete and utter crap.
The Khorne & Tzeentch ones are literally only playable in 2k+ games... Hell, even going super cheap with Tzeentch, it's still 1073pts minimum for;
Tzherald w/Lv3 + Exalted Locus
2x 11 Horrors ('cause you absolutely need WC's with Tzeentch)
7x Exalted Flamers
3 Khornate Grinders with no shooting.
Our Daemonic Incursion detachment is bar far the outright worst of any of the 7.5 stuff... While I can sympathise with Guard who got absolutely miserable infantry based formations, the rest of the stuff is decent to solid.
The only things of worth thus far for Daemons are some of the relics, and (potentially) the new Warlord traits.
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Post by: Sersi
zendral wrote:Ultimately I would still like to wait to have all the rules in my hands but man....I swear someone at gw hates Tzeentch. I've been a Tzeentch/thousand sons fan since 2nd ed. And in the last 10 years I've not seen such blandness. When I heard about new psychic powers and formations I was stoked. But here we go again. "What should we do with Tzeentch? Isn't he the God of fire or something? Sure" product: Tzeentch lore = lol fire and feel no pain. What happens to manipulation/deceit? Such lazy sloppy rules.
I here you. Like how Slaanesh has all these powers that force LD tests. But no way to lower enemy LD values. I mean you'd think there would be a psyhic power or artifact that reduces LD, somewhere. I mean I have these fragile assault units with high initiative that they never get to use. Even my I10 KOS still mostly strikes at I1. But nope no always strike at initiative powers or artifacts. No Hit & run rules either. Nope all that Slaaneshi goodness that we had in the old codex the Eldar got + god like shooting. Totes fair man.
I expected to be disappointed and GW came through for Chaos like always. Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought if an independent character joined the formation, they didn't benefit from the formation rules. Is that not so?
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Post by: zendral
Slaanesh is my second army, so very much agreed. I've always felt that at least it would be cool if the enemy had to take a leadership to shoot/charge a daemon of slaanesh. Trying to avoid the captivating allure of his/her power.
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Post by: Quarterdime
 Sersi wrote: I hear you. Like how Slaanesh has all these powers that force LD tests. But no way to lower enemy LD values. I mean you'd think there would be a psyhic power or artifact that reduces LD, somewhere.
There is an artifact. The Doomstone. It just needs them to fail a Leadership test in order to reduce their Leadership. 
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Post by: Experiment 626
Sersi wrote:zendral wrote:Ultimately I would still like to wait to have all the rules in my hands but man....I swear someone at gw hates Tzeentch. I've been a Tzeentch/thousand sons fan since 2nd ed. And in the last 10 years I've not seen such blandness. When I heard about new psychic powers and formations I was stoked. But here we go again. "What should we do with Tzeentch? Isn't he the God of fire or something? Sure" product: Tzeentch lore = lol fire and feel no pain. What happens to manipulation/deceit? Such lazy sloppy rules.
I here you. Like how Slaanesh has all these powers that force LD tests. But no way to lower enemy LD values. I mean you'd think there would be a psyhic power or artifact that reduces LD, somewhere. I mean I have these fragile assault units with high initiative that they never get to use. Even my I10 KOS still mostly strikes at I1. But nope no always strike at initiative powers or artifacts. No Hit & run rules either. Nope all that Slaaneshi goodness that we had in the old codex the Eldar got + god like shooting. Totes fair man.
I expected to be disappointed and GW came through for Chaos like always.
I hear you mate... What did Tzeentch get in the end?
A couple decent relics
No fix to our half worthless 'Daemon of...' rule
No formation to boost our casting ability, while every loyalist Marine seems to be getting super easy WC harnessing abilities.
A formation that potentially makes Screamers worse!
A psychic lore focused on Witchfires which 7th won't allow us to spam, despite Witchfires being our main source of ranged damage output. 
So in the end, the servents of the God of ****ing Magic are still among the game's worst actual psykers, because... "screw Chaos" apparently.
At least we're really used to bitter disappointment nowadays. Now 10 years and counting as being the random joke army of 40k.
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Post by: CrownAxe
Sersi wrote:I thought if an independent character joined the formation, they didn't benefit from the formation rules. Is that not so?
Depends on the formation rule's wording because IC become apart of a unit for all rules purposes (and nothing prohibits ICs from join a unit from a formation)
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Post by: Swampmist
Experiment 626 wrote: vostroyan second born wrote:
chaos demons get Demonic Corruption "Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed." and AM loses objective securde at infantry except infantry veterans in the vet formation.
Demonic Corruption alone is better than the whole cadia supplement ...
You can re-take objectives from Daemons... the point of Daemonic Corruption is that Daemons don't have to baby sit an objective for the entire game, which is really only of amazing to Khorne & Slaanesh since all they want to do is rush forwards and beat face.
Tzeentch gains the least from it, (as Horrors are still at their best when keeping the hell away from the enemy and just blasting them), while Nurgle still doesn't mind squatters in cover. (Nurglings especially!)
And really, the 'cheapest' Daemoncurion we can run is Slaanesh, which is still a minimum of 1070pts, which only gets you;
Slaaherald w/Lv2 + Exalted Locus
6x 10 Daemonettes
3 Khornate Grinders (the worst kind & no shooting attacks!)
That's complete and utter crap.
The Khorne & Tzeentch ones are literally only playable in 2k+ games... Hell, even going super cheap with Tzeentch, it's still 1073pts minimum for;
Tzherald w/Lv3 + Exalted Locus
2x 11 Horrors ('cause you absolutely need WC's with Tzeentch)
7x Exalted Flamers
3 Khornate Grinders with no shooting.
Our Daemonic Incursion detachment is bar far the outright worst of any of the 7.5 stuff... While I can sympathise with Guard who got absolutely miserable infantry based formations, the rest of the stuff is decent to solid.
The only things of worth thus far for Daemons are some of the relics, and (potentially) the new Warlord traits.
you... do realize those are actually cheaper than the un-upgraded IG-curion, yeah? and that you get better bonuses for doing it?
EDIT: Also, Where is the rule statong you can only generate up to half of your powers? As far as I know that's just a CSM thing, though I may be wrong.
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Post by: CrownAxe
Its on the page with all the psychic disciplines. The CSM only thing is having to generate at least 1 power from their god's discipline
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Post by: Swampmist
 CrownAxe wrote:Its on the page with all the psychic disciplines. The CSM only thing is having to generate at least 1 power from their god's discipline
Ah, that'd do it. Well, I hope they fix that atleast, but it's still not the worst thing in the world. All of the gods got a buff, and are still leagues ahead of their Traitor Astartes brethren, the Dark Eldar and the Orks.
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Post by: Experiment 626
 Swampmist wrote: CrownAxe wrote:Its on the page with all the psychic disciplines. The CSM only thing is having to generate at least 1 power from their god's discipline
Ah, that'd do it. Well, I hope they fix that atleast, but it's still not the worst thing in the world. All of the gods got a buff, and are still leagues ahead of their Traitor Astartes brethren, the Dark Eldar and the Orks.
No, they didn't fix that. The Grimoire re-print is just a 100% carbon copy of the codex with the campaign stuff added in. Unlike Wolves, we're not getting a codex re-print. So all of our bad rules are still bad.
Saying we're still better than Chaos Marines is basically akin to saying to that Maple Leafs are still more skilled than a peewee house league team. Being able to club an armless, blind, crippled 6 year old isn't anything to gloat about!
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Post by: zendral
The bonuses from a decurion shouldn't be the focus of what is better off than someone else decurion. It's the parts that make it up like the units and formations, and in the case mentioned above, the new guard formations are fantastic compared to the daemon ones. In which case the daemon decurion pales in comparison with taking whole decurion army into account vs. another decurion army. Especially when it pigeon holes you (for the most part) into one God.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Does anyone know what the forge host formation gives?
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Post by: 1PlusLogan
Experiment 626 wrote:
No fix to our half worthless 'Daemon of...' rule
...
At least we're really used to bitter disappointment nowadays. Now 10 years and counting as being the random joke army of 40k.
There are no words... just none.
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Post by: vostroyan second born
zendral wrote:The bonuses from a decurion shouldn't be the focus of what is better off than someone else decurion. It's the parts that make it up like the units and formations, and in the case mentioned above, the new guard formations are fantastic compared to the daemon ones. In which case the daemon decurion pales in comparison with taking whole decurion army into account vs. another decurion army. Especially when it pigeon holes you (for the most part) into one God.
actually only 3 formations are worth taking the purpose of the other formations is to make the 3 ok-ish formations look better.
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Post by: Sersi
Also what is up with GW and FW and sacred numbers. I CSM 3.5 you got a free aspiring champion upgrade and a +1 bonus to summoning. Basically bonuses for playing your army to the Fluff. Now we get penalties instead. In the 4th Ed CD codex you were limited to your sacred number as the number of models in your elite units; back when they were good....sob. They removed that with the 6th Ed codex. Then FW makes the Daemon Lords cost absurd numbers of points: 666, 777, 888, 999 respectively; cause its fluffy. So, here we get formation minimums based of sacred number. Why? Every one else get formation rules for relatively small requirements. Cause its fluffy?
You know what would have been fluffy? Its a Daemonic Incursion formation why didn't get a rule where destroyed units go into reserves and return on roll of 6, or something.
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Post by: Quarterdime
Sersi wrote:Also what is up with GW and FW and sacred numbers. I CSM 3.5 you got a free aspiring champion upgrade and a +1 bonus to summoning.
That was the common sense approach.
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Post by: Sersi
CrownAxe wrote: Sersi wrote:I thought if an independent character joined the formation, they didn't benefit from the formation rules. Is that not so?
Depends on the formation rule's wording because IC become apart of a unit for all rules purposes (and nothing prohibits ICs from join a unit from a formation)
Okay, thanks. So maybe take a minimum CAD; 2-4X Heralds 2X minimum Daemonette squads. Maybe hold those in reserve to pinch objectives late game. Being forced to take so many units its kinda pointless to summon.
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Post by: Requizen
Experiment 626 wrote: vostroyan second born wrote:
chaos demons get Demonic Corruption "Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed." and AM loses objective securde at infantry except infantry veterans in the vet formation.
Demonic Corruption alone is better than the whole cadia supplement ...
You can re-take objectives from Daemons... the point of Daemonic Corruption is that Daemons don't have to baby sit an objective for the entire game, which is really only of amazing to Khorne & Slaanesh since all they want to do is rush forwards and beat face.
Tzeentch gains the least from it, (as Horrors are still at their best when keeping the hell away from the enemy and just blasting them), while Nurgle still doesn't mind squatters in cover. (Nurglings especially!)
And really, the 'cheapest' Daemoncurion we can run is Slaanesh, which is still a minimum of 1070pts, which only gets you;
Slaaherald w/Lv2 + Exalted Locus
6x 10 Daemonettes
3 Khornate Grinders (the worst kind & no shooting attacks!)
That's complete and utter crap.
The Khorne & Tzeentch ones are literally only playable in 2k+ games... Hell, even going super cheap with Tzeentch, it's still 1073pts minimum for;
Tzherald w/Lv3 + Exalted Locus
2x 11 Horrors ('cause you absolutely need WC's with Tzeentch)
7x Exalted Flamers
3 Khornate Grinders with no shooting.
Our Daemonic Incursion detachment is bar far the outright worst of any of the 7.5 stuff... While I can sympathise with Guard who got absolutely miserable infantry based formations, the rest of the stuff is decent to solid.
The only things of worth thus far for Daemons are some of the relics, and (potentially) the new Warlord traits.
There are much cheaper Core formations. Tallyband with all Nurglings? Rotswarm with single Beasts? Gorethunder is only 505 before giving the Herald anything.
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Post by: CrownAxe
I think Warpflame Host has some powerful options.
If you take 8 Exalted Flamers you get 8d3 18" S10 ap2 shots or 8 Heldrake flamers. Thats a ton of damage, enough to remove most units and even significantly threat WKs and such.. The problem is that they can't move and shoot. But you can put them in a Bunker fortification and now they have a 4 Av14 HP in the way and anything that gets within 18" of the bunker will get immediately destroyed
Or the Herald. If you take Paradox and the obvious Exalted Locus you can guarntee casting 4d6 autocannon shots at Bs4. If you put him on a disc he can also JSJ, moving 12" shooting 4d6 autocannon shots and then turbo boost 24" to get out of LoS.
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Post by: Fishboy
So if you get demonic corruption and your troops count as OS does that mean if you are playing an army that does not have OS you can technically win just by touching all the objectives? Or that someone would need to move something OS to the objective to retake the objective? This is pretty potent in progressive objective missions too.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Yes indeed the horrors and ex flamer formation can be extremely OP I think. Think it with DS on first turn with oracle disc. The discs rulings don't mention anything about not coming automatically on the beginning of your first turn.
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Post by: 1PlusLogan
 Fishboy wrote:So if you get demonic corruption and your troops count as OS does that mean if you are playing an army that does not have OS you can technically win just by touching all the objectives? Or that someone would need to move something OS to the objective to retake the objective? This is pretty potent in progressive objective missions too.
Yeah, I'm interested to see the exact wording of this, but there has been no mention of anything getting OS in this detachment.
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Post by: Swampmist
 1PlusLogan wrote: Fishboy wrote:So if you get demonic corruption and your troops count as OS does that mean if you are playing an army that does not have OS you can technically win just by touching all the objectives? Or that someone would need to move something OS to the objective to retake the objective? This is pretty potent in progressive objective missions too.
Yeah, I'm interested to see the exact wording of this, but there has been no mention of anything getting OS in this detachment.
he specified that the corruption goes away if a scoring unit gets in range of the objective. Still, you can touch a backfield objective once, and get free maelstrom points. Heck, demons may be the first army who will actually be able to reliably score supremacy or w\e.
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Post by: 1PlusLogan
Swampmist wrote: 1PlusLogan wrote: Fishboy wrote:So if you get demonic corruption and your troops count as OS does that mean if you are playing an army that does not have OS you can technically win just by touching all the objectives? Or that someone would need to move something OS to the objective to retake the objective? This is pretty potent in progressive objective missions too.
Yeah, I'm interested to see the exact wording of this, but there has been no mention of anything getting OS in this detachment.
he specified that the corruption goes away if a scoring unit gets in range of the objective. Still, you can touch a backfield objective once, and get free maelstrom points. Heck, demons may be the first army who will actually be able to reliably score supremacy or w\e.
Ah, good info. Thanks!
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Post by: plagueknight
Seriously disappointed by the daemons release to be honest was hoping for some formations that were not fething full of GWs chaos FUN tax some of these seemed like they could be good however since having min Sacred God numbers is so much FUN they will pretty much take up your whole army I was at least hoping for a couple small ones which could easy fitted in a CSM army as a small allied formation or something.
Also where are the rules for the soul grinder formation? Why is that the only formation we don have rules yet , as it would be nice if it had some sort of buff that made it good (though I believe a similar formation was in the old apocalypse book so I suspect it'll be a crappy copy and paste) it's bad enough that most of our heavy support Daemon princes (when selected as heavies) or soul grinders don't have a base cost instead we fething have to take compulsory upgrades just to field them
On another note the tallyband with nurglings could be good especially with the corruption by infiltrating nurgling swarms to seize the majority of the objectives straight away
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Post by: CrownAxe
 plagueknight wrote:Seriously disappointed by the daemons release to be honest was hoping for some formations that were not fething full of GWs chaos FUN tax some of these seemed like they could be good however since having min Sacred God numbers is so much FUN they will pretty much take up your whole army I was at least hoping for a couple small ones which could easy fitted in a CSM army as a small allied formation or something. Also where are the rules for the soul grinder formation? Why is that the only formation we don have rules yet , as it would be nice if it had some sort of buff that made it good (though I believe a similar formation was in the old apocalypse book so I suspect it'll be a crappy copy and paste) it's bad enough that most of our heavy support Daemon princes (when selected as heavies) or soul grinders don't have a base cost instead we fething have to take compulsory upgrades just to field them
You do know that the Soul Grinder apoc formation let them assault out of deep strike right? That's not crappy thats amazing Also soul grinder don't have to pay points if you don't want to (don't take a gun upgrade and you pick Khorne since its free)
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Post by: plagueknight
CrownAxe wrote: plagueknight wrote:Seriously disappointed by the daemons release to be honest was hoping for some formations that were not fething full of GWs chaos FUN tax some of these seemed like they could be good however since having min Sacred God numbers is so much FUN they will pretty much take up your whole army I was at least hoping for a couple small ones which could easy fitted in a CSM army as a small allied formation or something.
Also where are the rules for the soul grinder formation? Why is that the only formation we don have rules yet , as it would be nice if it had some sort of buff that made it good (though I believe a similar formation was in the old apocalypse book so I suspect it'll be a crappy copy and paste) it's bad enough that most of our heavy support Daemon princes (when selected as heavies) or soul grinders don't have a base cost instead we fething have to take compulsory upgrades just to field them
You do know that the Soul Grinder apoc formation let them assault out of deep strike right? That's not crappy thats amazing
Also soul grinder don't have to pay points if you don't want to (don't take a gun upgrade and you pick Khorne since its free)
But I play Nurgle  wow did not know that about the apocalypse formation hopefully it is a copy and paste then could be a perfect way of Giving CSMs access to soul grinders
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Post by: Sersi
plagueknight wrote: CrownAxe wrote: plagueknight wrote:Seriously disappointed by the daemons release to be honest was hoping for some formations that were not fething full of GWs chaos FUN tax some of these seemed like they could be good however since having min Sacred God numbers is so much FUN they will pretty much take up your whole army I was at least hoping for a couple small ones which could easy fitted in a CSM army as a small allied formation or something.
Also where are the rules for the soul grinder formation? Why is that the only formation we don have rules yet , as it would be nice if it had some sort of buff that made it good (though I believe a similar formation was in the old apocalypse book so I suspect it'll be a crappy copy and paste) it's bad enough that most of our heavy support Daemon princes (when selected as heavies) or soul grinders don't have a base cost instead we fething have to take compulsory upgrades just to field them
You do know that the Soul Grinder apoc formation let them assault out of deep strike right? That's not crappy thats amazing
Also soul grinder don't have to pay points if you don't want to (don't take a gun upgrade and you pick Khorne since its free)
But I play Nurgle wow did not know that about the apocalypse formation hopefully it is a copy and paste then could be a perfect way of Giving CSMs access to soul grinders
GW give Chaos assault from deep strike?!! Hah...ha... Nope. It'll be something disappointing that's for sure.
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Post by: Hulksmash
8 units of hounds getting +1 attack, all benefitting from the herald on crushers loci is sick. Especially with the adjustment to the warpstorm.
8 units of 5 hounds - 640pts
Khorne Herald with loci on crusher - 110
3 Skull Cannons of Khorne - 375
So 1125 gets you an apoc ignore cover template that's ap3, 80 scouting flesh hound wounds that have rage near the herald. Count as scoring objectives they run past, and adjust the warpstorm. Seems solid.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Who the hell owns that many Daemons?
I could probably do the Daemonette one if they are min-sized units, but that's it.
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Post by: Hulksmash
I own the hounds honestly because of daemonkin. But yeah, the total nil umber is going to limit people. 99 horrors, 80 bloodletters or 70 plague bearers is crazy huge numbers.
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Post by: avedominusnox
My personal opinion guys is that even though I am disappointed I will give it some time, because we all expected something more like take this, cast that on 2+, profit. I want to learn everything, and then after some tests and consideration I will judge it altogether. But for now I can see a few things that I wanna share with you. Firstly as for the datasheets my point is that there is no reason for them to be there. The horror formation seems powerful and through reading it we can understand more but with some sort of synergy I believe it can be powerful. Also if the grinder formation is decent the decurion could cheaply work by using grinders and tally host with nurglings. As for the psychic I think they are mediocre though by kairos and another caster with the relic which learns you the whole change we could cast two Ds per turn. The warlord traits are a mystery still. But I have seen a few relics that can alone be OP for Daemons. Oracle disc, D khorne weapon (on 6s), paradox, the -1ld from nurgle, the khorne weapon which removes you from game. And I think we can find more. Surely GW at first glance screwed us but there will be another way.
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Post by: plagueknight
I was hoping they would be the size of the daemon starter sets that were released a while back now that would of been perfect start off small with min requirements that could easily be fitted in.
No doubt I'll probably be disappoint by the soul grinder formation but regardless it looks like a pretty damn nice formation which adds 3+ soul grinders to a CSM army now that sounds good
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Post by: Experiment 626
 Hulksmash wrote:I own the hounds honestly because of daemonkin. But yeah, the total nil umber is going to limit people. 99 horrors, 80 bloodletters or 70 plague bearers is crazy huge numbers.
And here I thought I was getting excessive with 36 plastic + 26 old metal Horrors! (and 2 more unopened boxes of the plastics)
I'm not sure what's worse, suddenly getting formations that are more suited to the number you'd expect from Guard/Orks/'Nids, or the fact that I'd be better off running $400 worth of Exalted Flamers for only 400pts... (oooh, 1pt = 1$, how special of you GW!)
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Post by: Sersi
 H.B.M.C. wrote:Who the hell owns that many Daemons?
I could probably do the Daemonette one if they are min-sized units, but that's it.
I maxed out on Slaaneshi Daemons years ago, I could probably field ~200 daemonettes total. I only have like 50 Seekers though.
Ofcourse they were $16 for 10 back in the far gone days of 2008.
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Post by: Melionodr
May I use the special new artifacts and psi powers always for my daemons or are there restrictions ? If it works, then this will be the main reason for me to get the book (tzeentch daemon prine with the 3+ save artifact seems nice to me or a D-weapon for my Khorne Herald).
Other possible things I see:
1. Khorne Daemonkin with 3 Maulerfiends in the HS slot AND 3 Soul Grinders with this formation. Careful: the soulgrinders do not generate blood points...
2. Lets'check what you can get as "cheap" formations without loosing to much fighting power:
Slannesh: First formation offers daemonettes and fiends. 3 fiends are fast and 105 points, but I don't think they are that good. But you only need 6 choices, so 18 fiends sound like a choice.
Second formation: This might be crazy because of the already good seekers that all get the bonus from the Herald.
Tzeentch: I think both formations are bad actually
Nurgle: First formation seems cheap with 7* nurlings, but nurglings won't win the game for you and are too expensive for that.
Second formation is where the fun lives: 6 Beasts of Nurgle (each only 52 points) and a big unit of Drones with Herald for FnP ? That sounds ok, but it can't be a core choice for the new detachment.
Khorne: First formation seems ok, 8*5 Dogs is something Daemonkin players have at home ;-). And +1 attack for each hound AND all units profit from the Heralds ability ? That is good.
Second..well I do not think that a full unit of this cannons is worth it.
So let's say we take the best core choice: Khorne Herald on Moloch with 8*5 Dogs
And then one of the good aux-choices: 6 Beasts of Nurgle and 1 Drone-group OR 3 Soul Grinders.
This actually sounds reasonable for me. What do you get ?
- Bonus attack for your dogs
- Dronestar can get +3 attacks per model and can reroll the charge range and the drones + beasts get poisened hammer of wrath.
- Reroll on instability
- The marker holding ability (so your hounds grab the markers and run on)
- + or - 1 on the warpstorm table
But this are already 1750(!) points. So this would also be your army:
- Herald of Nurgle
- Herald of Khorne
- 40 khorne dogs
- 6 nurgle beasts
- One big unit of drones
15 units, 17 kill points, only 2 psychic levels.
Might be the best thing for our new decurion. Any better ideas ?
Edit: i just realised that you could also take 18 fiends of slannesh and a slannesh herold instead of the 40 khorne dogs...but I think that is not really better.
To the formations itself:
- I will never try to field one of the "standard" choices outside of the try to use the decurion
- I might see myself using the nurgle one do get drones with 7 attacks on a charge (!)
- Even the khorne dog spam one is IMHO weaker than the gorepack. Gorepack gives you hammer of wrath and fearless dogs. 5 dogs might sitll loose a fight against 5 Marines and then you have to test for instability...what always sucks.
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Post by: plagueknight
Still hoping for rules for the grinder formation being leaked
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Post by: insaniak
Midgardia....?
Seriously?
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Melionodr wrote:May I use the special new artifacts and psi powers always for my daemons or are there restrictions ? If it works, then this will be the main reason for me to get the book (tzeentch daemon prine with the 3+ save artifact seems nice to me or a D-weapon for my Khorne Herald).
Did I read correctly there is a global -1LD artefact for Nurgle?
I can see a lot of potential utility for that.
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Post by: Quarterdime
In a regular game of 40k, in order to get Daemonic Infestation with my Nurgle daemons (or any daemons aside from Slaanesh) I'm going to have to go past my troops cap for Force Organization, thereby effectively trading Objective Secured for this new rule. Am I wrong?
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Post by: avedominusnox
Guys does ANYone out there knows anything about the Soul grinder formation apart from it consists of three grinders????
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
pretty sure a screenshot was posted either here or in the Demons thread yesterday
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Post by: Melionodr
Just the picture, not the rules
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Post by: Bonespace
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Post by: shogun
avedominusnox wrote:Guys does ANYone out there knows anything about the Soul grinder formation apart from it consists of three grinders????
Really would like to know this too..... Why would anybody make pictures without the rules...? Its on the same page!! 
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Post by: Tonberry7
shogun wrote: avedominusnox wrote:Guys does ANYone out there knows anything about the Soul grinder formation apart from it consists of three grinders????
Really would like to know this too..... Why would anybody make pictures without the rules...? Its on the same page!!
Pure speculation but I'm guessing the formation might grant each grinder more attacks. The fluff description mentions the grinders competing with each other and fighting all the harder.
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Post by: Quarterdime
H.B.M.C. wrote:Who the hell owns that many Daemons?
I could probably do the Daemonette one if they are min-sized units, but that's it.
It's juuust doable for Nurgle players as well since I, being one, have enough Nurglings and Plaguebearers combined to meet the minimum if I buy a few more boxes. 3 Nurgling swarms = 1 Troop.
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Post by: Sersi
Man this is frustrating. Every list I come up with is just so point inefficient. I have to take 60 daemonettes minimum in six units. But I can only get 1 Herald in the formation. Even with the 12" bubble effect of the loci of beguilement, they won't do much. They won't all ever be in range of the loci, and 10 girl squads of Daemonettes are not nearly as effective as 20 in combat. They just could let the Heralds loci effect the entire formation? I could take a CAD for 3-4 more heralds but then I need 2 additional daemonette squads costing 180 pts, giving me a total of 80 daemonettes. Then I can't efficiently maximize their AP2 killing potential either. I used to run Alluresses with Greater Etherblades in 20X squads. I just don't see using the formation as being worth it. The -1WS/I is just so meh. Who do we need that against? The Eldar Aspect warrior formation no one takes?
The Seeker/Chariot formation has the same efficiency problem I have to run them in units of 5 when 15 would be best to ensure they reach combat and break face. Again the bubble loci effects are nice but they won't all be in range to get it. To be honest the +6" run boost does nothing as they were already fast enough. Would it have killed them to come up with something actually useful? What does +6" flat out do for chariots exactly? They still suck regardless.
It also doesn't help that they put to Daemonettes and Seeker ie the good units in separate formation with the bad units: Fiends and Chariots. That no one takes. Khorne is better in that regard as their troop, elite and fast attack choices are all in one formation.
The Daemonic Incursion rules are good, really good. But we'll never get to use these formation effectively under 2250 pts. Think about what imperial armies can take at those point levels.
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Post by: Melionodr
Sersi wrote:Man this is frustrating. Every list I come up with is just so point inefficient.
Check my post above. I think the nurgle dronestar is NOT point inefficient. I also think the Khorne standard list with 8*5 dogs with +1 attack and Loci for everyone in 12 inch (and the other benefits) is not bad.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Sersi wrote:Man this is frustrating. Every list I come up with is just so point inefficient.
Why not try a Warpflame host. Making one big bomb horror squad. Adding all exalted flamers and heralds in. Then DS through oracle disc. Then bomb the s&@*^t out of everything. Disc probably lets you DS first turn. Also if grinder formation the decurion would be easier to fit.
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Post by: Red_Drake
Exalted Flamers have heavy weapons
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Post by: Melionodr
So it actually works in 1850 Points:
Kairos
3 Heralds of tzeentch with Discs, all Psi level 3 and 1 with Grimoire
2*3 Nurglings
9 Screamer
+
Herald of Nurgle
6 Nurgle Beasts
8 Drones with champ and ID
1848 points
The screamerstar is good, no question about that. 15 psi levels are not perfect,, but ok.
Main benefit here: Beasts of Nurgle with FnP because of the Loci and drones with + 3 attacks on a charge. Might be worth a try
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Post by: Sersi
Melionodr wrote: Sersi wrote:Man this is frustrating. Every list I come up with is just so point inefficient.
Check my post above. I think the nurgle dronestar is NOT point inefficient. I also think the Khorne standard list with 8*5 dogs with +1 attack and Loci for everyone in 12 inch (and the other benefits) is not bad.
I appreciate that but I play Mono-Slaanesh. That said all those dogs will not be in range of that single loci.
I was mostly referring to Daemonic Incursion decurion being bad. Some of the sub formations are alright taken with a CAD. Like you did above. Not the Slaaneshi ones mind you. But the only good thing about our decurion are the main bonuses. Re-roll instability, Warp Storm mitigation and Daemonic corruption. If your not going all in there's not much point to taking the formations as who need or wants to spam that duplicate units?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
avedominusnox wrote: Sersi wrote:Man this is frustrating. Every list I come up with is just so point inefficient.
Why not try a Warpflame host. Making one big bomb horror squad. Adding all exalted flamers and heralds in. Then DS through oracle disc. Then bomb the s&@*^t out of everything. Disc probably lets you DS first turn. Also if grinder formation the decurion would be easier to fit.
I don't play Tzeentch. But I could probably get 30 seekers for a similar price to that Soul grinder formation.
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Post by: EricBasser
I'm thinking Warpflame Host could be fun. Use it as a Summoning/Flickering Fire spam.
Here's what I'm thinking for it.
Warpflame Host
Tzerald ML3 with relic Disc and +1 str to powers loci.
6x 11 Horrors
3x 3 Flamers
Daemons CAD
Fateweaver
3x Tzerald ML3. One has exalted gift for Portal.
2x 11 Horrors
Fortification
Skyshield Landing Pad
WC - 33 if I counted correctly.
Fateweaver blasts that str d shot around.
Horrors from formation roll on Tzeentch powers, Heralds and Horrors from CAD roll on Tzeentch and Maleificent powers.
Shot and summon. Could be fun. Could be long and tedious to roll for powers.
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Post by: CrownAxe
H.B.M.C. wrote:Who the hell owns that many Daemons?
I could probably do the Daemonette one if they are min-sized units, but that's it.
I have enough tzeentch to run the Warpflame Host
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Post by: Melionodr
Fateweaver knows all of Ts powers...so yeah, that is a funny thing.
But I would try to get get 9 Screamers in for the screamerstar, to have at least one resistant melee unit.
And well...I will actually NEVER own 88 Horrors ;-)
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Post by: Derp Angels Librarian
Recently returned player here, I'm confused about how this supplement works with the standard Chaos Daemon codex. Do I pick only one(which means I can't use hell forge artifacts and psychic powers form both ) or does this new release just adds extra stuff to the old codex ? Or is this the new edition and the old codex is not valid anymore?
thanks in advance,
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Post by: CrownAxe
 Derp Angels Librarian wrote:Recently returned player here, I'm confused about how this supplement works with the standard Chaos Daemon codex. Do I pick only one(which means I can't use hell forge artifacts and psychic powers form both ) or does this new release just adds extra stuff to the old codex ? Or is this the new edition and the old codex is not valid anymore?
thanks in advance,
This is all extra stuff to add to the current codex. Nothing is getting replaced
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Post by: Lythrandire Biehrellian
For a unit to be in range, only one model needs to be.
That is actually a LOT of board coverage...
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Post by: Sinful Hero
Was just going to post this. The wording should just let the entire unit benefit as long as one model of that unit is in range.
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Post by: EricBasser
If the herald is in a bastion, do you measure from the bastion for the loci, or does it not work like embarked in vehicles?
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Post by: Experiment 626
EricBasser wrote:I'm thinking Warpflame Host could be fun. Use it as a Summoning/Flickering Fire spam.
Here's what I'm thinking for it.
Warpflame Host
Tzerald ML3 with relic Disc and +1 str to powers loci.
6x 11 Horrors
3x 3 Flamers
Daemons CAD
Fateweaver
3x Tzerald ML3. One has exalted gift for Portal.
2x 11 Horrors
Fortification
Skyshield Landing Pad
WC - 33 if I counted correctly.
Fateweaver blasts that str d shot around.
Horrors from formation roll on Tzeentch powers, Heralds and Horrors from CAD roll on Tzeentch and Maleificent powers.
Shot and summon. Could be fun. Could be long and tedious to roll for powers.
It's nowhere near as good as it looks on paper, since the majority of your Flickering Fires are only BS3. Plus, those Horrors will bleed a WC point each with only 2 casualties per unit, thereby drastically limiting how many FF's you can viably throw out per turn.
If you start tossing around Prescience to boost the hit rate of your Witchfires, you suddenly find yourself short on dice for fueling said Witchfires.
The Tzeentch one is probably best off running only 1-2 units of Horrors, and taking a bunch of min-sized Flamer bombs + Exalted Flamers... And even then, the Exalts are a PITA to use, since they lack Relentless when on foot and yet are saddled with Heavy type weapons.
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Post by: Virules
I feel like a lot of the feasibility of using the decurion at all depends on the exact terms of the soul grinder formation. Dying to see it,
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Post by: avedominusnox
I disagree. I believe the seeker/chariots to be also powerful. I use in my most games a 20 seeker squad with two heralds. And it is powerful indeed. But this, the exalted chariots super powerful in attacks, though quite made of glass. Definitely will play test most of these in order to have a clear opinion.
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Post by: Virules
The thing is, Seekers are great, but they only survive if you put them in a huge group and keep them alive with invisibility or grimoire. If you have a bunch of tiny groups, suddenly you have much more trouble. The only solution I can think of with having to be in a bunch of small groups is auras (i.e., have a central unit with 1-2 Heralds casting cursed earth and maybe also shrounding).
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Post by: Cinderspirit
Well, I could see a big group of Seekers+Herald paired with small groups and Seeker Chariots. The main point that held Seeker Chariots back is the fact that they took a heavy support slot and putting them into a Cavalcade just makes no sense. But having 3 or so running over the board is quite a nice thing.
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Post by: Sinful Hero
EricBasser wrote:If the herald is in a bastion, do you measure from the bastion for the loci, or does it not work like embarked in vehicles?
If it works similarly to Tyranid synapse/spore cloud it should be measured from the Bastion.
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Post by: The Internet is for Khorn
I know that the auxilary formations are expensive, but most decrion detachments have 1-2 auxilaries that are a single model (suc as engine of war, wraith engine, etc.).
My favorite idea is a 40 flesh hounds murderpack with juggerherald+S on 6 weapon, plus fateweaver and belakor.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Cinderspirit wrote:Well, I could see a big group of Seekers+Herald paired with small groups and Seeker Chariots. The main point that held Seeker Chariots back is the fact that they took a heavy support slot and putting them into a Cavalcade just makes no sense. But having 3 or so running over the board is quite a nice thing.
The only downside to the Slaanesh auxiliary formation is that those Chariots are such a massive PITA to transport!
If I was to do a Slaanesh one, it would easily be 1 big unit of Seekers + Herald, and then solo Chariots to fill out the rest of the required units. Even the super chariot is quite cheap for what it can achieve on the charge.
It's too bad that Tzeentch formations are so heinously bad... Sure you can run a bunch of Exalted Flamers, but it's just too static, and they're not difficult at all to remove. (easier than Mutilators).
The auxiliary formation for Tzeentch is just pure garbage. Will be interesting to see if they add the Warpflame rule to the Screamer slash attacks, as that would add an extra level of hilariously unnecessary nerfing to the already weakest God!
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Post by: Cinderspirit
How about Murderhorde + Gorethunder Battery, putting the 2 Heralds in one big group of Flesh Hounds. So we would get Hounds with 5 Attacks, Rage and Hatred. Should be still possible to fit in something like BeLakor in a 1850+ points game.
Edit: I have to agree on the Chariots. What I am doing with mine is magnetizing the Daemonette which is wielding the whips around. That makes it a bit easier.
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Post by: Red Marine
I think gw is testing the waters with these massive formations. They know that most gamers have half these models. I believe they're trying to see if they can get us to buy the other half. Imagine if we all bought an additional 3-4 boxes of troops.
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
Not gonna lie i was interested in this, so dissapointed.
the new artefacts looks nice and interesting thought.
The only formations that i find worth it as a Khorne player is the Gorethunder, and then i fail to see how an Herald is really relevant to the role the formation as to play..
Also dissapointed that the Gorethunder isn't Apocalyptic barrage X, where X is the number of skull cannon still on the table.
At least the shot is AP3...
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Post by: Brometheus
Long shot, but would it change things if Exalted Flamers were Relentless per a faq/Errata?
I am bringing at least one for the formation
Interested to see the traits and Oracle Disc wording.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Has anyone considered running 9 exalted flamers? That a TON of s10 ap2 shooting, or s6(?) ap3 shooting from templates. Peopel are bitching about mobility but you could always deepstrike some of them. Seems like a great anti tank formation. Aren't the flamers only 50 pts?
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Post by: Requizen
 Red Corsair wrote:Has anyone considered running 9 exalted flamers? That a TON of s10 ap2 shooting, or s6(?) ap3 shooting from templates. Peopel are bitching about mobility but you could always deepstrike some of them. Seems like a great anti tank formation. Aren't the flamers only 50 pts?
Deep Striking doesn't work because the weapons are heavy. No one minds hoofing it, they mind having to snapshoot while doing so.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
If they move or DS they can't shoot that turn though (well, they can make a single snap shot which might as well be no shooting). That's why most people don't like them.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Why a single? Why not d3 each but snaps?
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
It is d3 each but snaps.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Guys what do you think of the seekers and chariots formations? Too many fast units. That can charge turn 2. Exalted seeker chariots are 4 HP. And they have too many attacks. 11/11/10 is low armour but it's like having 4-5 rhinos. Warp storm manipulation and cursed earth or shrouded can be very good. For example 1x20 seekers and 5 exalted chariots are almost 700 pts.
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Post by: CrownAxe
avedominusnox wrote:Guys what do you think of the seekers and chariots formations? Too many fast units. That can charge turn 2. Exalted seeker chariots are 4 HP. And they have too many attacks. 11/11/10 is low armour but it's like having 4-5 rhinos. Warp storm manipulation and cursed earth or shrouded can be very good. For example 1x20 seekers and 5 exalted chariots are almost 700 pts.
I've always thought there chariots were pretty solid being that they are rhinos with daemons saves and very fast (plus 7ed chariot rules were very nice to them). I think the best use would be 6 base chariots and a herald chariot (which is like 310 total) whien inside the Daemon Incurion gives you a bunch so super cheap MSU to grab objectives with Daemon Corruption
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Post by: Requizen
So yeah the more I think about this release the more it's only worth the Tzeentch relics to me.
Nurgle's "always wound/glance" relic seems good but there's basically no one worth taking it on in a competitive setting. Assault Princes have fallen out of favor with the high amount of Ignores Cover/D/Stomp in the game.
Slaanesh gets the Agony Whip (if model takes a wound, it can't attack), which is possibly really good... but Slaanesh Princes were already pretty poor compared to Nurgle or Tzeentch. Maybe a Seeker Star with a Herald holding one of these can cheese an opponent... I wonder if it stops Stomp.
Khorne ones are kind of ok, I guess. The "sometimes D" weapon is kinda nice, but unreliable, why not just bring a D-Thirster?
No, Tzeentch gets Reserve shenanigans, auto-cast once per turn, and the Storm Shield (sorta) relic. Heck, even the Eternal Staff is pretty good - compare it to the Burning Brand from CSM, and it's one S higher but loses Torrent. Still super good for torching MEQs with while flying past, for only 20 points.
Tzeentch Flying Circus/Screamerstar got hecka buffed, especially Summoning ones. The new Change 4 power is another Summoning that we can use and Fatey always knows.
Shame about the rest.
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Post by: avedominusnox
I think it stops stomp as per BRB because stomp is an attack with the stomp rule. I can see that weapon get used heavily. With reroll wounds and hits with beguilement it can be pretty powerful. 1 wound is enough to stop a WK. powerful indeed. Seeker chariots at 40 pts are also powerful. 5 of them and 1 seeker blob. Perfect auxiliary choice. If the forgehost isn't good enough to compete for the spot.
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Post by: Requizen
Yeah, the Aux choices are actually not too bad. Beasts + Dronestar, Chariots + Seekers, Screamer MSU, all pretty good. If only the Core choices weren't total crap, that's really what makes the Detachment a pain to take.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Requizen wrote:Yeah, the Aux choices are actually not too bad. Beasts + Dronestar, Chariots + Seekers, Screamer MSU, all pretty good. If only the Core choices weren't total crap, that's really what makes the Detachment a pain to take.
Beasts and drones and seeker/chariots are good. Screamers are crap I think. The basic are doable if you think either khorne and nurgle. Nurgle is cheap. Warp host might be good too.
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Post by: Requizen
I mean, min units of Screamers aren't amazing, but they could be a lot worse. T4 W2 with 5++/Jink rerolling 1s are actually pretty hard to take down even without deathstar buffs. They don't particularly kill a whole lot, but they can tie up a bunch and move around the table suuuuuper quickly, which is very MSU and disruptive.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Requizen wrote:I mean, min units of Screamers aren't amazing, but they could be a lot worse. T4 W2 with 5++/Jink rerolling 1s are actually pretty hard to take down even without deathstar buffs. They don't particularly kill a whole lot, but they can tie up a bunch and move around the table suuuuuper quickly, which is very MSU and disruptive.
The Screamers got nerfed through the ground by the formation though, as their slash attacks now carry the Warpflame penalty...
Last thing you want tacked onto a tiny number of attacks against things like Wraitguard, Bikers of all flavours, multi-wound models, Necrons in general, etc... is to be handing out FnP and/or boosting an existing FnP save.
The only thing for Tzeentch in this release are the relics.
The psychic powers overall are 'meh', as we still lack any boost to WC harnessing, (yet Marines of all colours get it!). 7th itself has nerfed the way our Tzheralds support units due to the general Witchfire nerf.
Our 'Daemon of' rule is still half useless. Exalted Flamers weren't fixed either. (no Gifts, no Relentless = barely functional)
And our formations are an absolute joke! The Core one is just too costly to viably play in anything under 2k, or else you're forced to take nothing but Exalts, which are bad units by themselves. (yes, they get lots of S10 shots, but too bad they're forced to stay rooted to one spot all game to shoot effectively, and Warpflame of course.)
Maybe spamming min sized Flamer squads, but, you're still going to need an additional basic CAD for added Tzheralds anyways, since Tzeentch is so heavily reliant on WC's for the majority of his damage output, and/or to boost the otherwise purely average shooting.
The Auxiliary formation is a damn joke. It makes no sense at all that Screamers on their own suddenly make Warpflame based slash attacks, yet, GW in all it's infinite wisdom decided to beat an average unit over the head with the nerf bat for no real reason, other than, "Chaos = FUN! lol" (The Chariot, sure, but that was entirely unnecessary to give it to Screamers themselves!)
Slaanesh is looking like he/she/it made out like a damn bandit. That Auxiliary formation is crazy good! Only problem will be how the hell you safely transport 5 of those Exalted Chariots!
The basic Khorne formation with MSU Dog spam could potentially be onto something as well, and the Skullcannon formation is looking pretty decent as the Khannons do have range going for them.
Nurgle... meh, I don't care about Nurgle being a Tzeentch player, so don't care if he's crap! (besides, he enjoys wallowing in it anyways, so he's probably happy in the end!  )
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Post by: avedominusnox
I don't think that the decurion supports mono God lists. You have to adapt. Fluffy doesn't mean competitive. Before this campaign I won several tournaments with daemons by spamming khorne/slaanesh lists. Kairos/seekers/brass scorpion. Seekers/hounds. Now I think that either I will carry on by focusing more on our powers and artifacts. Or the hard way through decurion and chariots. Chariot spam might be the way.
P.S. forget mono tzeentch.
Seriously wtf with our LoWs? The mega daemons can't be usable in normal games due to point tax %...
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
I really wanna see the warlord traits. Could be potential there if they make it god specific. Although it'll be random, and there will be no characters that come with one stock because they didn't change the codex at all.
although I can see something like this for tzeentch:
1- roll an additional d6 to determine the warp charge pool every psychic phase.
2- all friendly units gain +1 BS or relentless within 12" of the warlord. Controlling player chooses.
3- all units within 12" of warlord harness warp charge on a 3+
4- reduce opponent Toughness test rolls by 1 for warp flame tests.
5- all attacks have the soul blaze rule while the warlord is alive
6- choose a power the warlord knows. Reduce the WC cost of the chosen power to 1. Works once per phase.
If the tables are like that, we could see some minor redemption for the formations.
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Post by: Swara
Only ones I see being able to be used in smaller (or normal games) are the Nurgle ones.
Tally can take 6 squads of 3 nurglings and one big group of bearers.
Infiltrate the nurglings and hide them so they can assault 2nd turn and not have to deal with supporting fire from Tau and you can take 6 single beasts of nurgle for the other..
Still though.. so much tax to play any of these, just seems silly.
Do we know anything about the deamon prince one?
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Post by: Requizen
avedominusnox wrote:I don't think that the decurion supports mono God lists. You have to adapt. Fluffy doesn't mean competitive. Before this campaign I won several tournaments with daemons by spamming khorne/slaanesh lists. Kairos/seekers/brass scorpion. Seekers/hounds. Now I think that either I will carry on by focusing more on our powers and artifacts. Or the hard way through decurion and chariots. Chariot spam might be the way.
P.S. forget mono tzeentch.
Seriously wtf with our LoWs? The mega daemons can't be usable in normal games due to point tax %...
The LoW Daemons are designed to be Apocalypse-only, which sucks. Even barring that, most tournaments have a point limit on LoWs so you couldn't take the expensive ones anyway. Swara wrote:Only ones I see being able to be used in smaller (or normal games) are the Nurgle ones.
Tally can take 6 squads of 3 nurglings and one big group of bearers.
Infiltrate the nurglings and hide them so they can assault 2nd turn and not have to deal with supporting fire from Tau and you can take 6 single beasts of nurgle for the other..
Still though.. so much tax to play any of these, just seems silly.
Do we know anything about the deamon prince one?
4 Princes, one of each type. They get an extra bonus per each other Prince alive. They get following accumulative benefits depending on how many models remain on the battlefield. 4 models: +1T 3 models: +1S 2 models: Reroll 1's to hit 1 model: No benefit If your warlord is one of the DP, then all of them get the same warlord trait.
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Post by: Virules
I think we know everything except the Soulgrinder formation and the exact wording on the various artifacts.
Can't wait to see those...could have a big impact.
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Post by: Swara
The deamon prince one could be fun.. but still such a huge amount off points to get any benefit.
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Post by: Virules
I think the Daemon Prince one will be useless, as not only is the model hideously overcosted and fragile, but the artifacts will probably be limited to 1 per model. If you could stack artifacts on to your 4 DPs, maybe you could do something useful.
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Post by: Sersi
 Virules wrote: I think we know everything except the Soulgrinder formation and the exact wording on the various artifacts.
Can't wait to see those...could have a big impact.
Agreed, I am concerned that their maybe restrictions we're not aware of yet on the formations as some of the pages are cutoff.
I am curious why your would ever take the Masque as part of the basic Slaanesh formation.
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Post by: skarsol
Sersi wrote:
I am curious why you would ever take the Masque.
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Post by: gwarsh41
If there are new, and good warlord traits for daemons, having 4 DPs at T6, S7 with the warlord trait could be awesome. No more ID from walkers will be nice. Each god seems to have a relic that will make them beasts. Tzeentch knowing all the spells, Khorne hitting on 2s, Nurgle always wounding/glancing? (never looked at the slaanesh ones...)
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Post by: DarthFatticus
Can I use these formations in a Combined Arms Detachment? Or are these formations for Daemon Incursion only?
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Post by: Requizen
DarthFatticus wrote:Can I use these formations in a Combined Arms Detachment? Or are these formations for Daemon Incursion only?
Any formation with a dataslate can be used in an army. So you can go CAD + Formation.
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Post by: GoliothOnline
I guess its safe to say Daemons are getting a new Dex soon? I mean with all these formations they cant expect Daemon Players to HAVE to buy these special edition packages with SW rules.... Right =/
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Post by: Sinful Hero
 GoliothOnline wrote:I guess its safe to say Daemons are getting a new Dex soon? I mean with all these formations they cant expect Daemon Players to HAVE to buy these special edition packages with SW rules.... Right =/
It's what Tyranid players had to do with Shield of Baal.
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
I would say this release is more of a reason to think chaos isn't getting a codex soon, presumably all these formations were written with the current dex in mind, and releasing a new one would invalidate all the "work" they put in to this mini update.
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Post by: Requizen
Just as Shield of Baal was the "7e codex" for Nids and Kauyon/Mont'ka was the "7.5e codex" for Guard (and, to an extent, Raven Guard and White Scars), Daemons probably won't get a full codex any time soon, just this to sort of make up for it.
Which it doesn't really. Some Relics, Powers, and Traits alongside mediocre Formations doesn't change all that much. But, Daemons are placing highly in Tournaments and winning things, so it's kind of not an issue. But for people who don't like playing Star + Summoning + Fateweaver, I could see how they would have wanted more.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
That might summon somebody here to defend a terrible model. You've been warned.
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.
I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?
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Post by: Requizen
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.
I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?
Put them on their Chariot
The best suggestion I've seen so far has been to put a number of them in a Bastion or other building. It's a nice area denial tool, basically tears apart anything that gets close enough, but that's about it.
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Post by: Lou_Cypher
Should have done to them what Age of Sigmar did to Exalted Flamers.
They move at the same speed as regular Flamers and they shoot twice as much.
Warpflame hurts enemies on a further roll of 4, 5, 6. And heals an enemy model on a 1. That would have been a much better rule for Warpflame to be transferred here than what we currently have.
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Post by: chizal
Requizen wrote:AncientSkarbrand wrote:I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.
I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?
Put them on their Chariot
The best suggestion I've seen so far has been to put a number of them in a Bastion or other building. It's a nice area denial tool, basically tears apart anything that gets close enough, but that's about it.
Daemon Prince with Biomancy can drop Endurance on them for eternal warrior, feel no pain and relentless
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Post by: Requizen
chizal wrote:Requizen wrote:AncientSkarbrand wrote:I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.
I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?
Put them on their Chariot
The best suggestion I've seen so far has been to put a number of them in a Bastion or other building. It's a nice area denial tool, basically tears apart anything that gets close enough, but that's about it.
Daemon Prince with Biomancy can drop Endurance on them for eternal warrior, feel no pain and relentless
Sadly, basing your strategy around getting a Psychic Power and getting it to go off every turn is the best we can do in this situation. What a mess.
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Post by: Tonberry7
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I would say this release is more of a reason to think chaos isn't getting a codex soon, presumably all these formations were written with the current dex in mind, and releasing a new one would invalidate all the "work" they put in to this mini update.
This. Which I'm reasonably happy about as it means they won't be likely to mess with the current codex for at least a year. Yes, some units need updating but at the moment its still very competitive and fun imo.
Based on the leaks so far, apart from maybe trying the few decent new artefacts it's looking like I'll probably be sticking with CAD lists from the current codex. Sometimes I take 3 grinder lists anyway though so if that formation proves to be decent I'll just take them in that rather than the HS slots.
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Post by: GoliothOnline
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.
I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?
7th edition rules state they always count as being Stationary when firing while embarked on a Chariot...
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
Yeah, for sure, they can be effective on a chariot. What I wanted to avoid was paying 50 more pts for a bigger footprint and hardly any more durability. Not to mention they can't be taken in a warp flame host on a chariot, which means I can't even run the host unless I pay 50 pts per dude to never get to shoot anything. And the chariots can't squadron together so forget about buffing any of them in an efficient manner if they're chariot riders.
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Post by: Experiment 626
AncientSkarbrand wrote:Yeah, for sure, they can be effective on a chariot. What I wanted to avoid was paying 50 more pts for a bigger footprint and hardly any more durability. Not to mention they can't be taken in a warp flame host on a chariot, which means I can't even run the host unless I pay 50 pts per dude to never get to shoot anything. And the chariots can't squadron together so forget about buffing any of them in an efficient manner if they're chariot riders.
As a mono Tzeentch player, you're preaching to the choir mate! 
At the absolute least they needed Relentless. Would've been perfect if they also could retain the ability to take up to 20pts worth of Gifts, but apparently when a Tzherald steals their ride on them, the Exalts get so mopey and depressed that they suddenly forget how to function...
GW should just give them the new special rule, "Always a Sad Panda."
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Post by: GoonBandito
I've had some hilarious results with them on their Chariot. Drop the Grimoire on it, use a Herald on Disc to hide nearby out of LoS with a Cursed Earth bubble to give it a re-rollable 2++ and bait enemies into shooting it. Because its only AV10, alot of opponents end up trying to sink Boltgun equivalent fire into, which would be otherwise shooting at your T3 troops. It makes a pretty amusing tanky unit. Then you use the AP3 Torrent flamer to cut a swathe through a unit of Troops, or the D3 Lascannon shots to threaten tougher targets.
Admittedly this in a fairly relaxed environment, and not a super-competitve one.
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Post by: Trasvi
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That might summon somebody here to defend a terrible model. You've been warned.
I'll give it a go!
Sure, she's not the best thing in the game. Not being an IC is crippling against most armies; and not counting as a Herald when HQ slots are Daemon's most precious commodity really makes her unattractive.
But in a situation with lots of decent terrain and relatively few enemy threats (eg, someone running combat deathstars) she can be amazing. Or at least, amusing.
Big bad deathstar coming for you? Dance of Caging on, now they're moving a MAXIMUM of 6" that turn. If you have decent terrain she can pop out, dance, and run 3+( D6" re-rollable) back, possibly staying out of harms way.
Dance of Caging can also be used to bring down pesky enemy FMC's to let you shoot/assault them next turn. Or Dance of Dreaming can be used to shut down a riptide squad or Stormsurge or Grav Centurion squad.
To be honest if she didn't take up an entire HQ slot on her own, just doing that ONCE to an enemy per game (maybe even per tournament!) would be worth her relatively cheap cost. If she survives to do it again, you're laughing.
But yeah, taking up a HQ slot is crippling :(.
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Post by: hhhdan
Requizen wrote:chizal wrote:Requizen wrote:AncientSkarbrand wrote:I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.
I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?
Put them on their Chariot
The best suggestion I've seen so far has been to put a number of them in a Bastion or other building. It's a nice area denial tool, basically tears apart anything that gets close enough, but that's about it.
Daemon Prince with Biomancy can drop Endurance on them for eternal warrior, feel no pain and relentless
Sadly, basing your strategy around getting a Psychic Power and getting it to go off every turn is the best we can do in this situation. What a mess.
Well i have thought of a way to maybe make them work in a warpflame host, as i love that they get D3 S10 shots or a baleflamer . What i'm thinking right now is taking a herald on a disc that allows you to bring units from reserve, another one with a grimoire (or the same one if allowed and grimoire is still there to be taken), a squad of pink horrors and 3-4 exalted flamers (maybe more). Put them in reserve, bring them in turn 1 (if that relic allows to bring reserves turn 1), deepstrike near a middle of the board and prefferably onto an objective and wait a turn with grimoire put onto them. I will basically give you an area your opponent to go into and 18" radius is quite a nice field to have.
It is the best i came up with so far... Other thing could be to use them as turrets (like tarantulas in sentry mode, deep striking them onto an objective to be scary and securing points. I'll have to playtest it, but i really want to make them work, as i play a mono-tzeentch army, so having two formations that require 9 units each + herald isn't really helping...
Thinking of it, they could just be used as a deterrant used to get some pressure off horrors, while they summon other stuff literally start with a warpflame host and then grow your army from there approach lol
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Post by: Sersi
Trasvi wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That might summon somebody here to defend a terrible model. You've been warned.
I'll give it a go!
Sure, she's not the best thing in the game. Not being an IC is crippling against most armies; and not counting as a Herald when HQ slots are Daemon's most precious commodity really makes her unattractive.
But in a situation with lots of decent terrain and relatively few enemy threats (eg, someone running combat deathstars) she can be amazing. Or at least, amusing.
Big bad deathstar coming for you? Dance of Caging on, now they're moving a MAXIMUM of 6" that turn. If you have decent terrain she can pop out, dance, and run 3+( D6" re-rollable) back, possibly staying out of harms way.
Dance of Caging can also be used to bring down pesky enemy FMC's to let you shoot/assault them next turn. Or Dance of Dreaming can be used to shut down a riptide squad or Stormsurge or Grav Centurion squad.
To be honest if she didn't take up an entire HQ slot on her own, just doing that ONCE to an enemy per game (maybe even per tournament!) would be worth her relatively cheap cost. If she survives to do it again, you're laughing.
But yeah, taking up a HQ slot is crippling :(.
They really should have put her, all the heralds, and all the other special characters in the command formation. Or given her IC while in the formation. Now obviously if she was a IC she be an always take.
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Post by: Quarterdime
Which would you rather have? Objective Secured, or overwatch immunity? I guess I'd make that trade against Tau.
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Post by: Tonberry7
Just a quick thought. For the Warpflame Host, if you take an independent Herald with another exalted locus and join it to one of the Horror units in the formation, is it possible to get an S8 Flickering Fire? The formation rules say you can benefit from two loci so would they be cumulative?
As far as I can see you could get +1 from the independent Herald in the unit, +1 from the formation Herald with an exalted locus and +1 from the Formation bonus.
I'm struggling to find a way for the formation to be effective and playing with the idea of a central Horror unit with the Formation Herald and exalted locus, surrounded by 4 more Horror formation units, each with an independent Herald and another exalted locus. It's expensive and squishy but there could be a lot of potential S8 firepower and the warp charges to back it up.
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Post by: Trasvi
I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.
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Post by: Tonberry7
Trasvi wrote:I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.
You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.
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Post by: avedominusnox
 Tonberry7 wrote:Trasvi wrote:I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.
You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.
I agree the wording isn't clear. Though only the horror squad will get the bonus not the independent herald. Because only formation units benefit.
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Post by: zamerion
Tonberry7 wrote:Trasvi wrote:I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.
You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.[/quote
Reading literally the formation its possible accumulate the same focus all the time that you want.
But your idea is very static, and in the edition of the fast movement i think it isnt a good idea.
For tzeentch i think the best idea is try to do a CAD with 2 heralds on disk (maybe with 2 locus, grimoire, and some reliqs), some screamers and 2 of horrors. and try to make a decurion with kairos, warpflame formation (adjusting exalted flamers to the points because are cheapers than horrors, other herald in disk with reliq of know all thezeentch spells and locus (+4 strength :O) and the soulgrinder formation (nude). But i think im dreaming, because these a lot of points...
If someone can calculate it and post..
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Post by: Tonberry7
avedominusnox wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:Trasvi wrote:I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.
You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.
I agree the wording isn't clear. Though only the horror squad will get the bonus not the independent herald. Because only formation units benefit.
That's fine though as you can just use the horrors to cast the S8 Flickering Fire. I've done a rough 1850 list including 5 units of horrors plus herald for 25WC base and also including a VSG for protection. If you gave each unit 5 psychic dice, best case you could try for a WC2 Flickering Fire from each for up to 15D6 S8 shots, plus something from the flamer/exalted flamer units.
Having said all that in reality it would probably go very differently and I agree that sort of list is probably not actually competitive. I'm just playing around with ideas here for the formation though.
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Post by: Sersi
Tonberry7 wrote:Trasvi wrote:I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.
You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.
Well according to the codex. You can have more than one loci in a unit, but only one is ever active. Normally the high tier one is in effect ie if its a lesser and greater loci; then only the greater is active. If they're the same level say exalted and exalted then you choose which one is active. The formation say you can be effected by the bubble effect of more than one loci. So that that's pretty clear they both work. I'd still argue that they don't intend duplicates. Look at the other loci. You can't re-roll to hit twice, or strike at I15, or get double FNP. Automatically Appended Next Post: avedominusnox wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:Trasvi wrote:I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.
You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.
I agree the wording isn't clear. Though only the horror squad will get the bonus not the independent herald. Because only formation units benefit.
Is that true though the Herald is an IC if it joins the unit it counts as part of the unit for all intents and purposes, right?
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Post by: avedominusnox
Khorne then is the most appropriate. Hatred to all via formation herald. Rage for the rest. Khorne bubble for +1A. Profit. If properly placed you can have +2 A to most units plus rage to almost all plus hatred. Amazing. Maybe the basic for khorne can be playable. Still no news for forgehost?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to get things straight, khartoth. Khornes Relic says that wounds cause remove from game. So if you hit a gargantuan and score let's say 3 unsaved wounds, you don't remove it from game but it takes 3 x D3 wounds right?
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Post by: Tonberry7
Sersi wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:Trasvi wrote:I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.
You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.
Well according to the codex. You can have more than one loci in a unit, but only one is ever active. Normally the high tier one is in effect ie if its a lesser and greater loci; then only the greater is active. If they're the same level say exalted and exalted then you choose which one is active. The formation say you can be effected by the bubble effect of more than one loci. So that that's pretty clear they both work. I'd still argue that they don't intend duplicates. Look at the other loci. You can't re-roll to hit twice, or strike at I15, or get double FNP.
It's true that duplicates of most of the other loci would have no effect. Some of these are down to restrictions of the core rules though e.g. you can't reroll a dice twice and stats are capped at 10 etc. There's no logical basis for concluding that two loci giving a +1 modifier wouldn't be cumulative just because duplicates of some other loci would have no practual benefit though.
In any case I'm going off the idea of trying to spam heralds and loci to gain lots of S8 FF; I think it's probably way too inefficient given the limitations of manifesting powers. I think it's possible to stick with S7 FF from the Warpflame Host and take an 1850 list with that and the Forgehost formation as part of the overall Daemonic Incursion formation, plus a tallyhost on the side.
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Post by: undertow
Tonberry7 wrote: There's no logical basis for concluding that two loci giving a +1 modifier wouldn't be cumulative just because duplicates of some other loci would have no practual benefit though.
From the CD Codex:
If there are two loci of the same tier, you choose which applies.
That pretty clearly lays out that multiple loci of the same type don't stack. I would say there might be a gray area to allow the formation Herald's locus to stack with one in another unit, but not two in the same unit, but I'd want a clear ruling in a FAQ before I tried using it in a tournament or something.
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Post by: Tonberry7
 undertow wrote: Tonberry7 wrote: There's no logical basis for concluding that two loci giving a +1 modifier wouldn't be cumulative just because duplicates of some other loci would have no practual benefit though.
From the CD Codex:
If there are two loci of the same tier, you choose which applies.
That pretty clearly lays out that multiple loci of the same type don't stack. I would say there might be a gray area to allow the formation Herald's locus to stack with one in another unit, but not two in the same unit, but I'd want a clear ruling in a FAQ before I tried using it in a tournament or something.
Yeah that is a fair point. Certainly that is normally the case. I suppose it's a question of whether the formation rules allow the restriction of only one locus of equal tier being active at once to be overridden. Note that the formation rule refers to receiving the benefit of "another" locus rather than a different or lesser one, but if the unit can't be affected by that equal locus in the first place then the point is moot.
It's probably safest to assume they still can't benefit from cumulative loci effects but I'd already kind of abandoned the idea of trying to stack them from a competitive list building point of view.
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Post by: Requizen
Fun note: Invocation says that when you summon the Herald, you get 30 points worth of upgrades. Unless there is some sort of restriction, that means that you can get these new Relics on any Herald you Summon via that power.
-Tzeentch: you can afford Paradox or the 3++. You should probably already have Paradox, but the 3++ is pretty decent if you need staying power. He can sit on an objective, save on 3++ rerolling 1s until he gets joined on the following turn by Horrors or something. Disc is still better for mobility, though.
-Nurgle: best options here are either Bell of the end of the World (-1 LD to all enemies global) or Death Head (one time use AP4 Poison 2+ Large Blast). Summoning a dude and suddenly reducing all Leaderships by -1 is great, and can help you Psychic Shriek things further in the Psychic Phase.
-Slaanesh: You almost never summon these guys anyway, which is good because everything here is a weapon as far as I can tell. Hard pass, since summoning a single, solo T3 model and hoping it gets into Assault is laughable.
-Khorne: Much of the same. You can summon one with the 3+ armor with Adamantium Will and hope it survives a bit longer, but you will rarely do this.
So these are pretty decent if you summon Nurgle or Tzeentch Heralds. Pop a HoNurgle into cover, global -1L. Or summon him right in front of a unit of dudes and Poison them on 2+.
Drop a HoTzeentch onto an objective that you're not holding, give him 3++, watch the opponent's frustration. Bonus if you get him Cursed Earth as well.
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Post by: son_of_osiris
So do we still not know what the soul grinder formation does? It's pretty obvious it's 3 or possibly more grinders.
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Post by: CrownAxe
 son_of_osiris wrote:So do we still not know what the soul grinder formation does? It's pretty obvious it's 3 or possibly more grinders.
No. Unfortunately the poster who had the early copy hasn't been back since
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Post by: Virules
CrownAxe wrote: son_of_osiris wrote:So do we still not know what the soul grinder formation does? It's pretty obvious it's 3 or possibly more grinders.
No. Unfortunately the poster who had the early copy hasn't been back since
Yup very unfortunate. Probably abducted by the Inquisition for spreading heresy and knowledge of Chaos.
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Post by: Sersi
Requizen wrote:Fun note: Invocation says that when you summon the Herald, you get 30 points worth of upgrades. Unless there is some sort of restriction, that means that you can get these new Relics on any Herald you Summon via that power.
-Slaanesh: You almost never summon these guys anyway, which is good because everything here is a weapon as far as I can tell. Hard pass, since summoning a single, solo T3 model and hoping it gets into Assault is laughable.
I do just take the chariot if nothing else it'll draw fire. If not use her to grant a cover save to you Seekers or other squishies.
Actually, I'm starting to like the formations:
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Post by: Tonberry7
If I had to guess I think the Forgehost will be very similar to the Infernal Tetrad. The image shows three grinders, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle. So you'll probably have to take three grinders, all aligned with a different god. Then like the Tetrad there might be "accumulative benefits depending on how many models remain on the battlefield". The fluff description mentions the grinders competing with each other and fighting all the harder so I'm thinking the benefits might include things like +1 Attack, re-roll 1s to hit, Rage, or even +1 Initiative.
All pure speculation but it's fun to do so.
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Post by: luke1705
I'm assuming that we can't take those sweet sweet relics in a normal CAD without taking 17 units of pink horrors or such, right?
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Post by: avedominusnox
Relics are army wide available no matter if you take CAD or formation or decurion.
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Post by: changemod
Requizen wrote:Fun note: Invocation says that when you summon the Herald, you get 30 points worth of upgrades. Unless there is some sort of restriction, that means that you can get these new Relics on any Herald you Summon via that power.
-Tzeentch: you can afford Paradox or the 3++. You should probably already have Paradox, but the 3++ is pretty decent if you need staying power. He can sit on an objective, save on 3++ rerolling 1s until he gets joined on the following turn by Horrors or something. Disc is still better for mobility, though.
-Nurgle: best options here are either Bell of the end of the World (-1 LD to all enemies global) or Death Head (one time use AP4 Poison 2+ Large Blast). Summoning a dude and suddenly reducing all Leaderships by -1 is great, and can help you Psychic Shriek things further in the Psychic Phase.
-Slaanesh: You almost never summon these guys anyway, which is good because everything here is a weapon as far as I can tell. Hard pass, since summoning a single, solo T3 model and hoping it gets into Assault is laughable.
-Khorne: Much of the same. You can summon one with the 3+ armor with Adamantium Will and hope it survives a bit longer, but you will rarely do this.
So these are pretty decent if you summon Nurgle or Tzeentch Heralds. Pop a HoNurgle into cover, global -1L. Or summon him right in front of a unit of dudes and Poison them on 2+.
Drop a HoTzeentch onto an objective that you're not holding, give him 3++, watch the opponent's frustration. Bonus if you get him Cursed Earth as well.
Actually I regularly summon a mounted Herald of Slaanesh. She can run 6+ D6 and form a very functional distraction, being just nasty enough to make a nusciance of herself if she's ignored. Automatically Appended Next Post: CrownAxe wrote: son_of_osiris wrote:So do we still not know what the soul grinder formation does? It's pretty obvious it's 3 or possibly more grinders.
No. Unfortunately the poster who had the early copy hasn't been back since
PM him maybe?
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Post by: Sersi
But are the "new relics" part of our existing reward limits or in additions to them? Plus someone has to take the Grigmore and you only have one Herald in the formation so there goes their reward limit. Also I can't think of any reason to take a portaglyph in this formation. It's not like you'll be running short of lesser daemons.
Shame they didn't make the heralds, elites, troops, and fast attack all in one formation. That Slaanesh Apocalypse Formation with 6 units of either daemonettes or seekers, with assault from deep strike and 4+ rending would have been amazing in regular 40K.
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Post by: Requizen
Sersi wrote:But are the "new relics" part of our existing reward limits or in additions to them? Plus someone has to take the Grigmore and you only have one Herald in the formation so there goes their reward limit. Also I can't think of any reason to take a portaglyph in this formation. It's not like you'll be running short of lesser daemons.
Shame they didn't make the heralds, elites, troops, and fast attack all in one formation. That Slaanesh Apocalypse Formation with 6 units of either daemonettes or seekers, with assault from deep strike and 4+ rending would have been amazing in regular 40K.
Iuchiban said that any model that can take rewards can take one of the new Relics. One per model, that is. It doesn't prevent you from taking Rewards or Gifts.
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Post by: CrownAxe
Sersi wrote:But are the "new relics" part of our existing reward limits or in additions to them? Plus someone has to take the Grigmore and you only have one Herald in the formation so there goes their reward limit. Also I can't think of any reason to take a portaglyph in this formation. It's not like you'll be running short of lesser daemons.
Shame they didn't make the heralds, elites, troops, and fast attack all in one formation. That Slaanesh Apocalypse Formation with 6 units of either daemonettes or seekers, with assault from deep strike and 4+ rending would have been amazing in regular 40K.
All of the relics have their own point costs so its clear that aren't apart of the rewards system
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Post by: vercingatorix
Do we know if the parodox will work on the single model or a bubble effect?
And how many Warp charges are the new powers? I have a feeling the D one will be too many to be worth using in a lot of cases.
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
It's warp charge 9, cause it's tzeentch's special fluffy sacred power! Also, you need 9 psyker units to cast it, and you're only allowed to roll 9 dice!
Furthermore, each unit that contributed to the attack has to take a leadership test with a -9 modifier or suffer a perils of the warp roll with a -9 modifier! Any psykers who survive will be unable to act for the next 9 turns and have all stats reduced by 9 for the remainder of the game. Chaos is fickle!
On a serious note I wholeheartedly expect it will be warp charge 3. At this point the exact wording and effect of paradox is unknown to us.
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Post by: CrownAxe
Huh? What are you asking?
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Post by: vercingatorix
If fateweaver is on the other side of the board and casts a power, can I use my once a turn to flip the dice.
It doesn't sound like we have specifics so far. Just gotta wait and see!
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Post by: CrownAxe
 vercingatorix wrote:
If fateweaver is on the other side of the board and casts a power, can I use my once a turn to flip the dice.
It doesn't sound like we have specifics so far. Just gotta wait and see!
I highly doubt the relic will affect anyone other then the wielder
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Post by: KhorneontheCobb
Am I the only one reading the formation with the screamers as the burning chariots gaining slash attacks, but it has warpflame?
It seems that people think screamer slash attacks are gaining warpflame but I don't think that's the case... To me, it reads that the screamer slashes stay the same, but chariots gain slash (but with warpflame).
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Post by: vercingatorix
CrownAxe wrote: vercingatorix wrote:
If fateweaver is on the other side of the board and casts a power, can I use my once a turn to flip the dice.
It doesn't sound like we have specifics so far. Just gotta wait and see!
I highly doubt the relic will affect anyone other then the wielder
Could be the unit as well. So now the screamer star can have a paradox and know all the tzeentch powers. Might actually be dangerous again!
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Post by: GoonBandito
 KhorneontheCobb wrote:Am I the only one reading the formation with the screamers as the burning chariots gaining slash attacks, but it has warpflame?
It seems that people think screamer slash attacks are gaining warpflame but I don't think that's the case... To me, it reads that the screamer slashes stay the same, but chariots gain slash (but with warpflame).
The Formation special rules for the Burning Skyhost are:
* Warpflame
* Harbinger of Tzeentch (the Loci of the Herald affects all units from the Formation within 12")
* Trail of Transmuting Flame - If a Burning Chariot Turbo-boosts, pick 1 enemy unit it moved over. That unit takes D6 S5 AP4 hits with Soul Blaze and Warpflame. In addition, add 1 to the number of Slash Attacks Screamers from this Formation make, and resolve all the Slash attacks with the Soul Blaze and Warpflame rules.
What this actually means is that now every unsaved wound caused by an attack from a model in this formation (be it Melee, Shooting, Psychic etc) causes Warpflame, because Warpflame is a rule that is added to the entire formation...
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Post by: skarsol
FNP for everyone!
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Post by: GoonBandito
Tempted to name my Tzeentch Herald Oprah now tbh.
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Post by: DarkBlack
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.
I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?
Put them on a chariot or use them in Age of Sigmar.
Maybe put one in a defensive position? They are pretty cheap.
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Post by: Tonberry7
 DarkBlack wrote:AncientSkarbrand wrote:I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.
I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?
Put them on a chariot or use them in Age of Sigmar.
Maybe put one in a defensive position? They are pretty cheap.
Yeah the options aren't great.
Put one in a unit of horrors and stick them in a ruin?
Deep strike solo suicide units?
Accept them as tax to make the Warpflame host cheaper?
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Post by: GoonBandito
I picked up my data-cards this arvo - no campaign book for me since a mate is already getting it. Didn't get a look at the Warlord traits in the book yet, but apparently there is a Tzeentch one that lets you harness on a 3+ (not sure whether that was on the Warlord or army, assuming Warlord only) and another Tzeentch one that turns your Warlord into a ML1 Psyker or adds +1 to your Mastery Level - which could be funny on a Khorne Demon Prince in the DP Formation lol?
Discipline of Plague:
Primaris - Stream of Corruption. Unchanged
1 - Debilitating Distension: WC1. Malediction on enemy unit within 24". Target cannot run, sweeping advance or overwatch.
2 - Plague Wind: Unchanged.
3 - Miasma of Pestilence: Unchanged.
4 - Rancid Visitations: Unchanged.
5 - Final Decomposition: WC2. Focussed Witchfire, Range 12", S*, AP2, Assault 1, Ignores Cover, Instant Death, Internal Liquefaction (*Do not roll To Wound. Instead, roll a D6 - if the result is higher than the number of Wounds the target has remaining, it suffers 1 Wound with the profile above.) Does not affect vehicles.
6 - Putrescent Vitality: WC1-3. Blessing that targets a single Demon of Nurgle unit within 24". Choose whether it is WC1, 2 or 3 each time it is cast. Whilst in effect, add +1 Toughness to all models for each point of warp charge it cost to cast.
Discipline of Change
Primaris - Flickering Fire of Tzeentch: Unchanged, other than to reword it to make it clear you choose the WC cost before you cast.
1 - Tzeentch's Firestorm: Unchanged.
2 - Bolt of Change: Unchanged
3 - Tzeentch's Warpflare: WC1. Nova, Range 9", S D6, AP4, Assault 2D6, Ignores Cover, Warpflame.
4 - Boon of Flame: WC2 or 3, decide before rolling. Conjuration with range of 12". If used at WC2, conjure 1 Exalted Flamer. If used at WC3 conjure either a unit of 3 Flamers or 1 Burning Chariot.
5 - Infernal Gateway: Unchanged.
6 - Prismatic Gaze: WC3. Witchfire, Range 18", Strength D, AP1, Assault 1.
Discipline of Excess
Primaris - Lash of Slaanesh. Unchanged.
1 - Acquiescence. Unchanged, other than to clarify that the Initiative penalty is to a minimum of 1.
2 - Pavane of Slaanesh: Unchanged.
3 - Maniacal Fervour: WC1. Blessing that targets a friendly unit within 24". Unit suffers D6 S3 AP- hits, but gains Furious Charge, Rage and Zealot.
4 - Phantasmagoria: WC1. Malediction on enemy unit within 18". Each time the unit wishes to Move, cast Psychic Powers, Run, Shoot, Charge, Attack in the Fight Subphase, Sweeping Advance, Consolidate or Overwatch it must first pass a Leadership test. If failed, cannot perform that action but may perform an alternative action in that phase, assuming it passes another Leadership Test.
5 - Slicing Shards: WC2. Witchfire, Range 24", S4, AP4, Assault 1, Large Blast, Soul Flay (After resolving the attack, any units that are under the blast marker must pass a Ld check or suffer a further D6 S4 AP4 hits).
6 - Cacophonic Choir: Unchanged.
And the Tactical Objectives if anyone is interested:
11 - Delight in Despair: 1 VP if an enemy failed a Fear or Morale test in Assault Phase. If it was against a Slaanesh Demon Unit, score 2 VP instead.
12 - The Cycle of Life: 1 VP if an enemy unit was destroyed. It was by a Nurgle Demon unit, score 2 VP instead.
13 - Touched by the Warp: 1 VP if at least one friendly model succeeded to manifest a Psychic Power. If it was by a Tzeentch Demon model, score 2 VP instead.
14 - The Glory of Khorne: 1 VP if a character killed an enemy in a Challenge. If it was a Khorne Demon Character, 2 VP instead.
15 - The Dominion of Chaos: D3 VP if you control more objectives than your opponent.
16 - The Great Game: Roll a dice at the end of each turn after generating this objective. Score that many VP at the end of your turn if you control the number of objectives equal to the number you rolled that turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Soul Grinder formation as was described to me is 3 Grinders of any configuration; when 1 Grinder kills an enemy model, the other 2 Grinders get +1 To Hit and To Wound for the rest of the phase.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Thanks for the info goon. Ok for the grinder formation if the effect isn't cumulative its crap. The D power is 3 WC as expected. That won't be a problem though. I will still use it as there is nothing else better. Still too much random power for us in the codex. Nurgle power targets only nurgle units. meh. Focused witch fire sounds a bit interesting. But still playing mobile nurgle casters isn't a hype. Ok my take for the decurion is nurglings for basic and seekers/chariots for aux.
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Post by: Dorash
Mucking around on BattleScribe at the 1500 point mark (the level my local tourney plays) and I've come up with two decent sounding, if boring, Nurgle lists using the new formations.
List 1 which is the Daemonic Incursion detachment with a Tally Band and Rot-whatever formations to satisfy the minimims for Daemonic Incursion:
Herald of Nurgle on Palanquin, (-1 global leadership to enemies one), greater reward for etherblade, locus of Fecundity
Herald of Nurgle, Grotti the nurgling (-1 enemy toughness nearby), greater reward for etherblade, locus of fecundity
7 x 1 Beast of Nurgle set up to countercharge on plaguebearer flanks
3 x 20 Plaguebearers
4 x 10 Plaguebearers
List 2 is just the Tally Band formation. I think this one is even better.
Herald of Nurgle on Palanquin, (-1 global leadership to enemies bell), greater reward for etherblade, locus of fecundity
7 x 20 Plaguebearers, each with a Plagueridden with lesser reward for etherblade.
I really think that as boring and lame as List 2 is, it would be extremely rubbish to fight against. It would drown things in close combat, frequently lowering enemy toughness and strength and its immune to overwatch which in my experience with being overwatched to shreds from some great luck from my enemy, is amazing and shouldnt be underestimated. Thoughts?
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Post by: Warhams-77
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Post by: CleverAntics
If you squint at the first image you can see the Bloodthirster of Insenate Rage entry WITH options. Three lines, so my guess is rewards.
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Post by: GoonBandito
 CleverAntics wrote:If you squint at the first image you can see the Bloodthirster of Insenate Rage entry WITH options. Three lines, so my guess is rewards.
Yes, they're the same as the White Dwarf dataslates from when the new Bloodthirster model came out.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
CleverAntics wrote:If you squint at the first image you can see the Bloodthirster of Insenate Rage entry WITH options. Three lines, so my guess is rewards.
We've had the 'Thirsters posted earlier in the thread, they do indeed get rewards.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Thats something we already knew. whats more important is the wording of the relics.
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Post by: Trasvi
Dorash wrote:Mucking around on BattleScribe at the 1500 point mark (the level my local tourney plays) and I've come up with two decent sounding, if boring, Nurgle lists using the new formations.
List 1 which is the Daemonic Incursion detachment with a Tally Band and Rot-whatever formations to satisfy the minimims for Daemonic Incursion:
Herald of Nurgle on Palanquin, (-1 global leadership to enemies one), greater reward for etherblade, locus of Fecundity
Herald of Nurgle, Grotti the nurgling (-1 enemy toughness nearby), greater reward for etherblade, locus of fecundity
7 x 1 Beast of Nurgle set up to countercharge on plaguebearer flanks
3 x 20 Plaguebearers
4 x 10 Plaguebearers
List 2 is just the Tally Band formation. I think this one is even better.
Herald of Nurgle on Palanquin, (-1 global leadership to enemies bell), greater reward for etherblade, locus of fecundity
7 x 20 Plaguebearers, each with a Plagueridden with lesser reward for etherblade.
I really think that as boring and lame as List 2 is, it would be extremely rubbish to fight against. It would drown things in close combat, frequently lowering enemy toughness and strength and its immune to overwatch which in my experience with being overwatched to shreds from some great luck from my enemy, is amazing and shouldnt be underestimated. Thoughts?
IMO, far too slow. Most armies will be able to rip you to shreds as you walk 6" towards them every turn.
If you want to do something like that... give each unit a banner and instrument. Start 1-2 on the board in ruins/out of sight, and deep strike everything else that you can as close to the enemy as possible on your next turn. Otherwise you'll NEVER catch the enemy.
RE psychic powers. So the new powers are all ok, except...
- As you can only take 1-2 from the list because Daemons, its going to be hard to get the good spells.
- THere are better / more reliable lores to be rolling on anyway (Telepathy, Divination and Biomancy)
Summoning in a Chariot sounds hilarious.
Fateweaver is much pleased. Summoning in chariots. Strength D shots from a FMC. OMG Air to air combat with Strength D shooting yes please!!
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Post by: DaPino
Something I'll try is using deepstrike exalted flamers to grab backline objectives.
50 points is plenty cheap and the daemon incursion special rule allows me to control the objective even after the flamer gets shot down.
It'll force my opponent to slog a unit back in order to capture the objective again. Else I'm going to score some very easy objectives.
They're also good to meet the requirements for the formation since 3 flamers means you only need 6 more units instead of 9.
Finally, it's a nice distraction carnifex to boot! If they leave them alive, they will cause some dmg.
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Post by: Shandara
Those Nurgle powers look awesome. Extra Toughness will benefit so many units. even just +1 to prevent ID on things like Plague Drones.
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Post by: CrownAxe
CleverAntics wrote:If you squint at the first image you can see the Bloodthirster of Insenate Rage entry WITH options. Three lines, so my guess is rewards.
The CD dataslates for the bloodthirsters already had options
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Post by: Sersi
 GoonBandito wrote:
Discipline of Excess
Primaris - Lash of Slaanesh. Unchanged.
1 - Acquiescence. Unchanged, other than to clarify that the Initiative penalty is to a minimum of 1.
2 - Pavane of Slaanesh: Unchanged.
3 - Maniacal Fervour: WC1. Blessing that targets a friendly unit within 24". Unit suffers D6 S3 AP- hits, but gains Furious Charge, Rage and Zealot.
4 - Phantasmagoria: WC1. Malediction on enemy unit within 18". Each time the unit wishes to Move, cast Psychic Powers, Run, Shoot, Charge, Attack in the Fight Subphase, Sweeping Advance, Consolidate or Overwatch it must first pass a Leadership test. If failed, cannot perform that action but may perform an alternative action in that phase, assuming it passes another Leadership Test.
5 - Slicing Shards: WC2. Witchfire, Range 24", S4, AP4, Assault 1, Large Blast, Soul Flay (After resolving the attack, any units that are under the blast marker must pass a Ld check or suffer a further D6 S4 AP4 hits).
6 - Cacophonic Choir: Unchanged.
And the Tactical Objectives if anyone is interested:
11 - Delight in Despair: 1 VP if an enemy failed a Fear or Morale test in Assault Phase. If it was against a Slaanesh Demon Unit, score 2 VP instead.
12 - The Cycle of Life: 1 VP if an enemy unit was destroyed. It was by a Nurgle Demon unit, score 2 VP instead.
13 - Touched by the Warp: 1 VP if at least one friendly model succeeded to manifest a Psychic Power. If it was by a Tzeentch Demon model, score 2 VP instead.
14 - The Glory of Khorne: 1 VP if a character killed an enemy in a Challenge. If it was a Khorne Demon Character, 2 VP instead.
15 - The Dominion of Chaos: D3 VP if you control more objectives than your opponent.
16 - The Great Game: Roll a dice at the end of each turn after generating this objective. Score that many VP at the end of your turn if you control the number of objectives equal to the number you rolled that turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Soul Grinder formation as was described to me is 3 Grinders of any configuration; when 1 Grinder kills an enemy model, the other 2 Grinders get +1 To Hit and To Wound for the rest of the phase.
Hmmm.... Those Slaanesh Powers aren't to bad, not as good as Telepathy though. They're still LD based with no way to reduce LD. Bonus points to GW for simply ripping off their Old 7-8 ed WF Slaanesh Magic lore, but leaving out the LD rape powers and artifacts. I mean come on Eldar have a -3 LD maldiction power.
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Post by: avedominusnox
Phantasmagoria has some potential. Great antideathstar power. If nurgle relic gives -1 ld it can be powerful. And for 1 WC hell yes.
Do you think plague drones and palanquin heralds will work? I can see some great tactic there. Though movement will be a problem. New nurgle power will be great for this unit.
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Post by: Sersi
Still I'm not complaining to much.
Flayer Troupe:
Herald: [LOB, GE, EB] = 115 pts
Daemonettes: [20X: Alluress, GE] = 205 pts
Daemonettes: [10X] = 90 pts
Daemonettes: [10X] = 90 pts
Daemonettes: [10X] = 90 pts
Daemonettes: [10X] = 90 pts
Daemonettes: [10X] = 90 pts
Total: 770 pts
Grand Cavalcade:
Herald: [LOB, GE, EB, Mount] = 130 pts
Seekers: [15X: Heartseeker, GE] = 205 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Total: 535 pts
- 2 Heralds, 70 infantry models, 15 cavalry models, and 5 chariots for 1,305 pts, leaving 695 point free in a 2,000 pt list.
Or I could go cheap on the Cavalcade:
Herald: [LOB, GE, EB, Chariot] = 145 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Seeker Chariots [1X] = 40 pts
Total: 385 pts
- That would give me: 2 Heralds, 70 infantry models, and 6 chariots for 1,155 pts; leaving 845 pts free in a 2,000 pts list.
- So I could take a sizable Emperor Children CAD taken from CSM: Crimson Slaughter. Take a Slaanesh Lord, some MSU Blastmaster squads to camp my backfield objectives, either Bikes or Raptor for deep striking melta, and 6-9 obliterators.
- Or take a CAD or Tau and proxy the Fire warriors as noise marines and the battlesuits as Slaanesh Subjugators.
- Or I could be "That Guy" and take a "fallen" Farseer, seer council and some scatterbikes.
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Post by: Brometheus
"The formations included are awesome too; [...] Seriously, all the formations are this cool."
Stop, WD team...
Just stop
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Post by: Swampmist
I feel like a tally with cavalcade might be good actually. Take the bell for -1 ld for tge slaanesh powers and laugh.
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Post by: vercingatorix
So, Can you give a daemon prince the relic that lets them know all the tzeentch powers? Cause then you can have two fateweavers.
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Post by: avedominusnox
vercingatorix wrote:So, Can you give a daemon prince the relic that lets them know all the tzeentch powers? Cause then you can have two fateweavers.
Probably you can. But still that doesn't make him Fatey.
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Post by: vercingatorix
avedominusnox wrote: vercingatorix wrote:So, Can you give a daemon prince the relic that lets them know all the tzeentch powers? Cause then you can have two fateweavers.
Probably you can. But still that doesn't make him Fatey.
IDK, if the DP can carry grimoire as well? I'd probably take that over the screamerstar.
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Post by: Requizen
vercingatorix wrote: avedominusnox wrote: vercingatorix wrote:So, Can you give a daemon prince the relic that lets them know all the tzeentch powers? Cause then you can have two fateweavers.
Probably you can. But still that doesn't make him Fatey.
IDK, if the DP can carry grimoire as well? I'd probably take that over the screamerstar.
I mean, that and the Screamerstar are two wildly different things. Like, extremely different.
But, it's not bad. Having two FMCs with guaranteed D shots is pretty good, even if you have to get them off on WC3. There's a pretty decent chance that you can just Swoop them across the table and then instagib an Imperial Knight before it can even activate shields in the Shooting Phase. And that's not nothing.
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Post by: gwarsh41
avedominusnox wrote:Phantasmagoria has some potential. Great antideathstar power. If nurgle relic gives -1 ld it can be powerful. And for 1 WC hell yes.
Do you think plague drones and palanquin heralds will work? I can see some great tactic there. Though movement will be a problem. New nurgle power will be great for this unit.
Plague drones + FnP heralds have always been a thing. You just run a blob of 6-8 so you can chain the drones up really far. Then you use the 6" pile in +consolidation a turn to get the herald up into CC as well.
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Post by: avedominusnox
A model can take rewards and in addition buy a relic. I think that a screamerstar is a safer Grimoire holder. Still I don't place my bet on screamerstar, I think the new psychic rules wrecked this unit..
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Post by: vercingatorix
Requizen wrote: vercingatorix wrote: avedominusnox wrote: vercingatorix wrote:So, Can you give a daemon prince the relic that lets them know all the tzeentch powers? Cause then you can have two fateweavers.
Probably you can. But still that doesn't make him Fatey.
IDK, if the DP can carry grimoire as well? I'd probably take that over the screamerstar.
I mean, that and the Screamerstar are two wildly different things. Like, extremely different.
But, it's not bad. Having two FMCs with guaranteed D shots is pretty good, even if you have to get them off on WC3. There's a pretty decent chance that you can just Swoop them across the table and then instagib an Imperial Knight before it can even activate shields in the Shooting Phase. And that's not nothing.
Well, the knights shields are up at deployment but you can also just fly around it turn 2 and hit the unshielded sides.
I look at the screamer star as a mobile summoning unit. If you had a level 3 DP then you can put two on telepathic and a summoning. That serves a purpose pretty damn close to fatey. If both of them are near each other and cast those novas plus D, plus flickering fire, plus psychic shriek(well, 3 of those for DP), that's pretty brutal. The fact that they're flying means you don't have to spend spell points on buff powers(sometimes you do as well obviously). I just find that my screamerstar usually doesn't kill all that much compared to fateweaver. Having two fateweaver damage outputs would be pretty freaking awesome.
Also, I play daemon as allies so I have units to fill the space in the middle of the board to stop the opponent from slaughtering my warp charge batteries in the back field. That'll be a problem without screamerstar to phsycally stand in the way.
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Post by: Requizen
Well, the Screamerstar isn't about killing things. It's super fast, runs around, kills off light units with Assault, and Summons.
A ML3 HoTz on a disc (no Rewards) is 120 points. A Tzeentch DP with ML3 Wings and Armor is 305. Screamerstar also gives you double the MLs on something that has more wounds, which is really where the strength is.
Princes are strong, but T5 with no Eternal Warrior or built in FNP means they can go down alarmingly quickly. Screamerstar has a lot of buffer wounds and mobility to deny that.
Again, not saying Princes are bad, but even with the changes to Psychic it's easy to see why people bring Screamerstar as a more reliable Psychic unit.
The strength of the Prince is to have Swooping mode on top of a possible Grim boost for durability, and extreme Assault prowess if it comes down to having a scrap.
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Post by: Experiment 626
vercingatorix wrote:Requizen wrote: vercingatorix wrote: avedominusnox wrote: vercingatorix wrote:So, Can you give a daemon prince the relic that lets them know all the tzeentch powers? Cause then you can have two fateweavers.
Probably you can. But still that doesn't make him Fatey.
IDK, if the DP can carry grimoire as well? I'd probably take that over the screamerstar.
I mean, that and the Screamerstar are two wildly different things. Like, extremely different.
But, it's not bad. Having two FMCs with guaranteed D shots is pretty good, even if you have to get them off on WC3. There's a pretty decent chance that you can just Swoop them across the table and then instagib an Imperial Knight before it can even activate shields in the Shooting Phase. And that's not nothing.
Well, the knights shields are up at deployment but you can also just fly around it turn 2 and hit the unshielded sides.
I look at the screamer star as a mobile summoning unit. If you had a level 3 DP then you can put two on telepathic and a summoning. That serves a purpose pretty damn close to fatey. If both of them are near each other and cast those novas plus D, plus flickering fire, plus psychic shriek(well, 3 of those for DP), that's pretty brutal. The fact that they're flying means you don't have to spend spell points on buff powers(sometimes you do as well obviously). I just find that my screamerstar usually doesn't kill all that much compared to fateweaver. Having two fateweaver damage outputs would be pretty freaking awesome.
Also, I play daemon as allies so I have units to fill the space in the middle of the board to stop the opponent from slaughtering my warp charge batteries in the back field. That'll be a problem without screamerstar to phsycally stand in the way.
It's a strong bet that the 'Loremaster Tzeentch' relic will have a rule that overrides rolling normally for any powers. Instead, you just get all 7 Tzeentch powers. So almost certainly no tag-teaming it on the same model with 7 Tzeentch powers + Psy Shriek & Summoning.
60813
Post by: Brometheus
Is this even legal? Is it any good? What's the F'ing point of even doing it if I can take 3 burning chariots and a nice screamerstar as a CD CAD (like I already do)
1850pts
CSM CAD:
Ahriman (Warlord)
8 TS-Rhino
7 TS- Rhino
Burning Skyhost Formation:
Herald of Tz: Disc
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
Burning Chariot
Burning Chariot
Burning Chariot
Allied Chaos D Detachment:
Herald of Tz: Disc, Grimoire
10 Pink Horrors
5 Screamers
My current 1850 is:
Ahriman
8 Terminators- MoTz
9 TS- Rhino
9 TS- Rhino
Fateweaver
Herald- Disc, Grimoire
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
7 Screamers
In fact, why even take the damn formation at all?
1840ish
Ahriman
9 TS- Rhino
9 TS- Rhino
CD CAD:
Herald: Disc, Grimoire
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
Burning Chariot
Burning Chariot
Burning Chariot
Hooray, now I can do slashing attacks without that stupid Warpflame
31941
Post by: avedominusnox
Let's hope that won't happen. But judging GW till now I doubt.
6107
Post by: vercingatorix
The first post on the tzeentch psychic powers said it was 1 + D6 strength but the most recent one says its D6. I have a bad feeling that the D6 one is correct.
D6 averages 1.57 wounds on a T4 target while 1 + D6 averages 1.9. A fairly big difference. WC 1 averages 1.94 on a T4 target(with WAY less variance) so basically 1 + D6 means that its pretty similar to flickering fire but D6 means you're better off going with flickering fire.
But if you have 2 targets you can hit than even with a D6 strength you're going to average more wounds and the odds only get better the more you have.
and ignore cover will be huge depending on the target and Ap 4. Ork bikers, path finders, most non-marine objective grabbers will be very sad, especially if you can grab a handful of squads. I'm assuming the nova range is 9"?
12186
Post by: Sersi
 Brometheus wrote:Is this even legal? Is it any good? What's the F'ing point of even doing it if I can take 3 burning chariots and a nice screamerstar as a CD CAD (like I already do)
1850pts
CSM CAD:
Ahriman (Warlord)
8 TS-Rhino
7 TS- Rhino
Burning Skyhost Formation:
Herald of Tz: Disc
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
Burning Chariot
Burning Chariot
Burning Chariot
Allied Chaos D Detachment:
Herald of Tz: Disc, Grimoire
10 Pink Horrors
5 Screamers
My current 1850 is:
Ahriman
8 Terminators- MoTz
9 TS- Rhino
9 TS- Rhino
Fateweaver
Herald- Disc, Grimoire
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
7 Screamers
In fact, why even take the damn formation at all?
1840ish
Ahriman
9 TS- Rhino
9 TS- Rhino
CD CAD:
Herald: Disc, Grimoire
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
Burning Chariot
Burning Chariot
Burning Chariot
Hooray, now I can do slashing attacks without that stupid Warpflame
Well, yeah. But then you miss out on those sweet Decurion rules. Not as important for mono-Tzeentch players, though.
98940
Post by: Swampmist
I think the d6+1 is from the formation. Might be wrong though.
6107
Post by: vercingatorix
ah, that would make sense. D6 + 2 is pretty dirty if its not already included.
86552
Post by: GoonBandito
vercingatorix wrote:The first post on the tzeentch psychic powers said it was 1 + D6 strength but the most recent one says its D6. I have a bad feeling that the D6 one is correct.
D6 averages 1.57 wounds on a T4 target while 1 + D6 averages 1.9. A fairly big difference. WC 1 averages 1.94 on a T4 target(with WAY less variance) so basically 1 + D6 means that its pretty similar to flickering fire but D6 means you're better off going with flickering fire.
But if you have 2 targets you can hit than even with a D6 strength you're going to average more wounds and the odds only get better the more you have.
and ignore cover will be huge depending on the target and Ap 4. Ork bikers, path finders, most non-marine objective grabbers will be very sad, especially if you can grab a handful of squads. I'm assuming the nova range is 9"?
Talking about Tzeentch's Warpflare, the new nova? Unless there's a misprint on the card, its definitely D6 Strength. The D6+1 strength is the existing Tzeentch's Firestorm power.
Of course there is the formation that gives +1S to all Warpflame attacks, and the Exalted Locus on your Herald that gives +1S to all Psychic Powers so you can potentially make it D6+2 Strength.
87991
Post by: Virules
If you want to take advantage of the good new stuff, depending on the exact wording of the artifacts, I am thinking something along the following for 1850:
CAD
1x Fateweaver (Warlord)
1x Lord of Change, lvl 3, lesser gift, 3++ artifact (and greater gift if also allowed)
11x Horrors
11x Horrors
2x Burning Chariots
CAD
1x Herald of Tzeentch, lvl 3, greater gift (grimmoire), artifact disc of auto-reserve
1x Herald of Tzeentch, lvl 3, artifact of paradox auto-pass
11x Horrors
Allied
1x Sorceror, lvl 3
5x Chaos Marines
1x Rhino, death of kasyr lutien upgrade
1x Chaos Fire Raptor, balefire missiles, vessel of tzenkah the occluder
This gives you two flying MCs that can summon or cast D shots/novas in the backline of the enemy army, each with hopefully a re-rollable 2++. The Lord of Change is also great in melee. Fateweaver is your warlord for the warp storm table.
You have 20 psychic dice, paradox lets you auto-pass something, and the rhino exponentially increases your odds of getting off daemonology spells with less dice. You can bring in the Fire Raptor turn 1 or 2 automatically, depending on how the disc is worded. There are plenty of horrors to sacrifice for more tzeentch heralds. You can also reserve the chariots and deep strike them in with cursed earth for torrent flamers or side lascannon shots. And when you start drowning in psychic dice, you can now summon burning chariots on top of the normal daemonology stuff.
You should be able to summon at least 30 daemon infantry models a turn with this army, probably more.
89474
Post by: Requizen
My thought - if you take the 3++ on a Tzeentch Daemon Prince, should you also buy 3+ armor? On one hand, you can save points and it doesn't matter at first. On the other, if you fail a save on the 3++ you might explode if you fail the Leadership as well, so if you can choose to take the 3+ against non AP3 guns, it's better. 20 points is 20 points, though.
100582
Post by: PondWater
Virules wrote:If you want to take advantage of the good new stuff, depending on the exact wording of the artifacts, I am thinking something along the following for 1850:
CAD
1x Fateweaver (Warlord)
1x Lord of Change, lvl 3, lesser gift, 3++ artifact (and greater gift if also allowed)
11x Horrors
11x Horrors
2x Burning Chariots
CAD
1x Herald of Tzeentch, lvl 3, greater gift (grimmoire), artifact disc of auto-reserve
1x Herald of Tzeentch, lvl 3, artifact of paradox auto-pass
11x Horrors
Allied
1x Sorceror, lvl 3
5x Chaos Marines
1x Rhino, death of kasyr lutien upgrade
1x Chaos Fire Raptor, balefire missiles, vessel of tzenkah the occluder
This gives you two flying MCs that can summon or cast D shots/novas in the backline of the enemy army, each with hopefully a re-rollable 2++. The Lord of Change is also great in melee. Fateweaver is your warlord for the warp storm table.
You have 20 psychic dice, paradox lets you auto-pass something, and the rhino exponentially increases your odds of getting off daemonology spells with less dice. You can bring in the Fire Raptor turn 1 or 2 automatically, depending on how the disc is worded. There are plenty of horrors to sacrifice for more tzeentch heralds. You can also reserve the chariots and deep strike them in with cursed earth for torrent flamers or side lascannon shots. And when you start drowning in psychic dice, you can now summon burning chariots on top of the normal daemonology stuff.
You should be able to summon at least 30 daemon infantry models a turn with this army, probably more.
What a beautiful list! Although taking it to a tournament would require lightning fast play and the ability to pull out piles of daemons quickly it looks like.
87291
Post by: jreilly89
So, outside of the Soulgrinders (which we don't know) are any of the formations worth taking? The only one I can do right now without buying a crap ton of more guys is the Khorne one, by taking a Herald on a Juggernaut and 8 squads of 5 dogs, which might be fun.
6107
Post by: vercingatorix
I think I'd rather put the artifact that guarentees the LOC has all the change powers on him than the 3+. You'll probably fail one of his leaderships and kill him off before his time but i guess you might use one of Fatey's re-rolls on the first wound he fails to make that a true 2+ re-roll.
90819
Post by: Red_Drake
 jreilly89 wrote:So, outside of the Soulgrinders (which we don't know) are any of the formations worth taking? The only one I can do right now without buying a crap ton of more guys is the Khorne one, by taking a Herald on a Juggernaut and 8 squads of 5 dogs, which might be fun.
we got the soulgrinder formation on the last page Automatically Appended Next Post: Experiment 626 wrote: vercingatorix wrote:Requizen wrote: vercingatorix wrote: avedominusnox wrote: vercingatorix wrote:So, Can you give a daemon prince the relic that lets them know all the tzeentch powers? Cause then you can have two fateweavers.
Probably you can. But still that doesn't make him Fatey.
IDK, if the DP can carry grimoire as well? I'd probably take that over the screamerstar.
I mean, that and the Screamerstar are two wildly different things. Like, extremely different.
But, it's not bad. Having two FMCs with guaranteed D shots is pretty good, even if you have to get them off on WC3. There's a pretty decent chance that you can just Swoop them across the table and then instagib an Imperial Knight before it can even activate shields in the Shooting Phase. And that's not nothing.
Well, the knights shields are up at deployment but you can also just fly around it turn 2 and hit the unshielded sides.
I look at the screamer star as a mobile summoning unit. If you had a level 3 DP then you can put two on telepathic and a summoning. That serves a purpose pretty damn close to fatey. If both of them are near each other and cast those novas plus D, plus flickering fire, plus psychic shriek(well, 3 of those for DP), that's pretty brutal. The fact that they're flying means you don't have to spend spell points on buff powers(sometimes you do as well obviously). I just find that my screamerstar usually doesn't kill all that much compared to fateweaver. Having two fateweaver damage outputs would be pretty freaking awesome.
Also, I play daemon as allies so I have units to fill the space in the middle of the board to stop the opponent from slaughtering my warp charge batteries in the back field. That'll be a problem without screamerstar to phsycally stand in the way.
It's a strong bet that the 'Loremaster Tzeentch' relic will have a rule that overrides rolling normally for any powers. Instead, you just get all 7 Tzeentch powers. So almost certainly no tag-teaming it on the same model with 7 Tzeentch powers + Psy Shriek & Summoning.
please don't say that...
87291
Post by: jreilly89
Red_Drake wrote: jreilly89 wrote:So, outside of the Soulgrinders (which we don't know) are any of the formations worth taking? The only one I can do right now without buying a crap ton of more guys is the Khorne one, by taking a Herald on a Juggernaut and 8 squads of 5 dogs, which might be fun.
we got the soulgrinder formation on the last page
Well, groovy, thanks. Aaaaaaaand that's disappointing.
90819
Post by: Red_Drake
I dunno... it is only kill a model. makes snapfiring easier? yay? too bad most of the grinder's weapons are already wouding on 2s
How does +1 to hit work with blasts?
14863
Post by: MasterSlowPoke
It doesn't.
87991
Post by: Virules
Yeah it's about the worst possible thing GW could have given the formation. They decided to copy-paste all the terrible Apoc formations, and only change the one that was actually decent, and to make it something useless.
Typical GW design approach to Chaos, sigh.
98940
Post by: Swampmist
I just thought of a way to make the Exalted Flamers better; Take Ahriman in a CAD for D3 Infiltrators, and then infiltrate them up and Baleflame things.
91452
Post by: changemod
Swampmist wrote:I just thought of a way to make the Exalted Flamers better; Take Ahriman in a CAD for D3 Infiltrators, and then infiltrate them up and Baleflame things.
Formed as a single unit to guarantee it, attached to some horrors for ablative wounds.
Yyyyyes, that would do it.
So: Are there any "take a unit" Auxilliaries? Furies would be the obvious candidate.
86552
Post by: GoonBandito
Got confirmation of the Soul Grinder Formation: Desperate Competition - Each time a Soul Grinder inflicts any casualties during Shooting or Assault phase, all other models from the formation re-roll all failed To Hit and To Wound until the end of the phase.
Chinese whispers fails me! Unfortunately the Grinders don't get to re-roll armour pen either :\
Also, Warlord Traits! As long as you are a demon of the correct type, you can roll on the appropriate table.
Khorne
1: Angel of Death - Enemy unit that fails a Fear test caused by your Warlord suffers 1 Wound of each point the test was failed by, no saves of any kind allowed.
2: Glory of Battle - Warlord has Rampage
3: Oblivious to Pain - Warlord has Feel No Pain. All Friendly Demon of Khorne units within 8" of Warlord get FNP6+
4: Immense Power - Warlord has +1S
5: Devastating Blow - In CC can choose to make a single Devastating Blow resolved at Strength D AP2 (!!)
6: Rage Incarnate - Warlord and all friendly Demon of Khorne units within 8" have Rage
Tzeentch
1: Born of Sorcery - Warlord harnesses Warp Charge on a 3+
2: Incorporeal Flame - Enemy is at -1WS and -1BS when targetting Warlord or his unit
3: Warp Tether - +1 to Invuln saves of Warlord and all friendly Demon of Tzeentch units within 9"
4: Lorekeeper of Tzeentch - +1 to Warlords Mastery Level. If not a psyker, instead becomes a ML1 Psyker and generates from Discipline of Change
5: Tyrant of the Warp - Warlord ignores the first Perils of the Warp he suffers during each Psychic Phase
6: Demonspark - Close Combat attacks of Warlord and all Demon of Tzeentch units within 9" have Soul Blaze
Nurgle
1: Blessed with Corpulence - Warlord has +1 Wound
2: Acidic Ichor - Each time Warlord suffers a wound in the Assault phase, the unit that dealt it takes a S1 AP2 Poisoned 4+ hit.
3: Plaguefly Hive - Enemy units within 7" of Warlord can only fire Snap Shots when targeting Warlord or his Unit.
4: Virulent Touch: If a model suffers any unsaved Wounds from your Warlord in Assault Phase, it must pass a Toughness Test at the end of phase or suffer 1 addition wound with no Armour or Cover saves allowed.
5: Impenetrable Hide - Warlord has FNP. If he already has FNP, he adds +1 to the FNP roll.
6: Miasma of Pestilence - Enemy units within 7" of Warlord that suffer any unsaved wounds during Shooting or Assault phase suffer D6 additional S1 Poisoned 5+ Wounds at the end of that phase. No Armour or Cover saves.
Slaanesh
1: Celerity of Slaanesh - Warlord and unit can Run and Charge.
2: Quicksilver Duellist - Warlord re-rolls all failed To Hits in a Challenge.
3: The Murderdance - Warlord and all friendly Slaanesh Demon units re-roll failed To Hits of 1 in the Assault Phase
4: Fatal Caress - To Wound rolls of 6 by your Warlord have Instant Death in the Assault Phase
5: Savage Hedonist - Warlord has +1 Attack
6: Bewitching Aura - At start of each Fight sub-phase, each enemy unit locked in combat against Warlord must pass Ld or be at -5WS (to minimum of 1) until end of phase.
8617
Post by: Hulksmash
Tzeentch seems awesome for the 4 DP formation. Any of those would be pretty excellent for 3 other DP's. Though a Khorne DP using the lore of tzeentch would be brilliant. Also I want to see the actual Daemon Decurion pages. That'll help enormously 
98940
Post by: Swampmist
Well, there's the "Harness on a 3+" and "Run and Charge" rules. Their just WL traits. Still, I feel like there are atleast 3 traits on each of those tables that are good, which is more than most armies get.
89474
Post by: Requizen
So what does this mean for special characters with set traits? Is the old table still legal?
95412
Post by: trep99
RAW question on new warlord traits for Nurgle:
1) Nurgle's acid ichor does not specify "unsaved wound", other powers usually do (even virulent touch and miasma of pestilence in this new table). If you save the wound do you still make the poison hit?
2) Impenetrable Hide: if you gain FNP later is it at +1, i.e. Endurance or locus of fenductity?
86552
Post by: GoonBandito
Relics! They are listed as Hellforged Artefacts, and any model that can take an Exalted reward can take one of the new ones. They don't count towards the points spent on Demonic Rewards, however a model can only have 1 Hellforged Artefact of any type.
Khorne:
* A'rgath, The King of Blades: 15pts. S+1, AP3, Melee, Specialist Weapon, Blade King (Bearer always hits on a 2+ in a challenge). Demon Prince of Khorne or Herald of Khorne only, replaces the bearer's melee weapon.
* Deathdealer: 15pts. S User, AP2, Melee, Decapitating Blow (Instant Death on To Wound of 6), Specialist Weapon, Searing Gore (Each time a model is removed as the result of attack by this weapon, its unit immediately takes an additional D3 S3 AP4 hits starting on closest models to bearer. Bloodthirsters of any type or Demon Princes only. Replaces bearer's melee weapon
* The Crimson Crown: 40pts. +1 Attack to all Demons of Khorne models within 8" of bearer. Bloodthirsters, Demon Princes and Heralds.
* Skullreaver: 30pts. S Uer, AP2, Melee, Specialist Weapon, Anathema (To Hit rolls of 6 are Strength D!!!). Bloodthirsters of any type or Demon Princes, replaces melee weapon. Fluff describes it as a huge axe with a Bloodthirster bound inside it
* Khartoth the Bloodhunger: 25pts. S+1 AP3 Melee Sunderer of Time (When a model suffers any unsaved wound from this weapon, it is removed from play but make a note of the models position. At the start of each turn, the controlling player rolls a die - on a 4+ the model re-enters play via Deep Strike within 12" of where it was slain. Model counts as slain if the game ends before it returns to play). Demon Princes and Heralds only, replaces melee weapon.
* Armour of Scorn: 30pts. 3+ Armour save, Adamantium Will. Reduce the Strength of any attack that targets the bearer by 1. Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes only
Tzeentch
* Paradox: 25pts. S User, AP4, Melee, Concussive, Warp Contradiction (Once per turn when taking Psychic Test, bearer can pick up and turn all dice he has rolled to their opposite side instead (ie 1,3 and 5 become 6, 4 and 2). Lord of Change and Herald of Tzeentch only.
* The Endless Grimoire: 35pts. If your Warlord generates all his powers from Change, he knows all the Change powers. Herald of Tzeentch only.
* Soul Bane: 15pts. S User, AP*, Melee, Fleshbane, Incorporeal ( AP is equal to target's Initiative. If target is higher Initiative 6, it is AP-. Against vehicles it is AP1). Demon Princes or Heralds only.
* The Oracular Dais: 35pts. Counts as Disc of Tzeentch. At start of each of your turns, choose one friendly Chaos Demon Faction unit that is reserve and automatically pass its reserve roll. Herald only.
* The Impossible Robe: 25pts. 3+ Invulnerable save. Each time wearer suffers an unsaved wound, must pass Ld or be removed from play. Lords of Change, Demon Princes or Heralds only. Note the wording on that downside...
* The Everstave: 20pts. Two profiles - S User, AP4, Melee, Soul Blaze, Warpflame and Range: Template, S5, AP3, Heavy 1, Soul Blaze, Warpflame. Lord of Change or Herald only
Nurgle
*Grotti the Nurgling: 40pts. Reduce the Toughness of all models, friend or Foe, by 1 whilst they are in 6" of a model accompanied by Grotti, unless they are a Demon of Nurgle. Great Unclean One, Demon Prince, Herald only. The fluff for this little dude is epic!
* Corruption: 25pts. S*, AP-, Melee, Touch of Rust (always glance on a 6), Hyper-infection (Hits by this weapon automatically Wound, no need to roll. Use the bearer's Strength for Armour Pen and Instant Death). GUO, Demon Princes and Heralds.
* Horn of Nurgle's Rot: 35pts. After resolving bearer's close combat attacks, add 1 model to friendly Plaguebearer units within 12" of the bearer for each enemy model that was slain. Models must be placed in coherency and more than 1" away from enemy models. Demon Prince and Heralds only.
* Epidemia: 20pts. S+1, AP- Melee, Specialist Weapon, Mass Contagion (Each time a model is removed as the result of this weapon, its unit must pass a Toughness nest or suffer an additional wound with no armour or cover). GUO only.
* The Doomsday Bell: 30pts. Counts as Instrument of Chaos. Whilst bearer is on the field, all enemy units are at -1Ld. Herald Only.
* Death's Head of Duke Olaks: 15pts. Range 12", S1, AP4, Assault 1, Large Blast, Poison 2+, One Use Only. Herald Only
Slaanesh
* Soulstealer: 20pts. S User, AP3, Melee, Soulgreed (each time a model is removed by this weapon, the bearer immediately regains 1 lost wound). Keeper of Secrets or Demon Prince only.
* Silvershard: 30pts. S User, AP3, Melee, Blade Blitz (bearer has +2 attacks). KoS or DP only.
* The Slothful Claw: 10pts. When bearer attacks in melee, roll one attack separately with the following profile S+2, AP2, Melee, Specialist Weapon, Rending. KoS or Herald only.
* The Forbidden Gem: 15pts. At start of Fight Sub-phase, after challenges issued but before blows are struck, any model in a challenge must roll 3D6 and subtract their Ld. That model suffers penalty to WS and Initiative equal to the result for the rest of the phase. Herald Only
* Whips of Agony: 15pts. S User, AP5, Melee, Agonising (the bearer can re-roll all failed To Wound rolls. Any model that suffers unsaved wounds cannot make attacks for the rest of the Fight Subphase). Exalted Alluress only....
* The Mark of Excess: 15pts. At the end of a Fight Sub-phase in which the bearer kills a Monstrous Creature or Character, it gains +1 Attack for the rest of the game. KoS, Demon Prince or Herald.
91452
Post by: changemod
GoonBandito wrote:Relics incoming They are listed as Hellforged Artifacts, and any model that can take an Exalted reward can take one of the new ones. They don't count towards the points spent on Demonic Rewards, however a model can only have 1 Hellforged Artifact.
Would you mind finding out if the daemon detachment has any non-formation auxilliary choices, such as units of furies?
9988
Post by: Budzerker
Any confirmations or pictures of the actual Decurion and its benefits?
Id love to see the exact wording on that objective claiming thing.
98940
Post by: Swampmist
Well, all of the stuff other than formations will be usable in 30k too, so that's something to consider. The D power is gonna be crazy when taking these guys as allies.
36642
Post by: son_of_osiris
Thanks for the wording of the relics, but what of the forgehost?
86552
Post by: GoonBandito
All relics posted above
24409
Post by: Matt.Kingsley
So... unless the expansion changes the wording of how Daemons generate their powers, The Endless Grimoire does nothing as Daemons are only allowed to generate up to half their powers from a god discipline.
*slowclap*
EDIT: Also wow all the AP3 Slaanesh Relics can only be taken by models with Smash. What was even the point?
And the Whip can only be taken by the Exalted Alluress? 10 pts for an AP2 sword is better...
27961
Post by: skarsol
Why do you hate Slaanesh, Goon?! ;P
Oh, looks like you edited them in, sweet!
60813
Post by: Brometheus
Matt, unless I am mistaken there is no such requirement/restriction for Chaos Daemons psykers in that regard. Just for CSM.
In fact, on Aeteos'Rau'Keres' rules (big FW Lord of Change), it says that he ignores the restriction of generating half his powers from Change as per the demons book but that is a typo because there is no requirement for him to do so otherwise.
Not trying to go all "ACTUALLY" on you, just trying to help If I am wrong, I apologize.
27961
Post by: skarsol
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:So... unless the expansion changes the wording of how Daemons generate their powers, The Endless Grimoire does nothing as Daemons are only allowed to generate up to half their powers from a god discipline.
Means you can only take it on a ML1 char.
101224
Post by: Rydria
I'm very happy with the Slaanesh stuff from this supplement, the formations are good, the warlord table is amazing especially run and charge and entire army gets re-roll to hit of 1 in combat.
The Relics
The Soulstealer: Is great increases the durability of melee Daemon Princes and Keeper of secrets quite allot once there in combat.
The Silvershard: Is good shame it can't be paired with eternal blade that would have been fun
The slothful claw: Is good since if it will grant +1 attack when paired with a greater Either-blade while allowing the heralds to instant death toughness 3 characters.
The Forbidden Gem: Is ok not sure if I will use it
Whips of Agony: Could have been good on a Hellflayer Exalted Alluress if it was unit couldn't attack sadly it isn't, though a Hellfalyer/or chariot armed with this could go suicide monster hunting.
The Mark of Excess: Good on a Herald with Exalted Locus, nothing bad about sniping squad leaders for +1 attack.
Thanks for posting all that up Goon
27961
Post by: skarsol
Not sure the Claw is good. Is it a weapon itself or an artifact?
Also, can't see myself giving up the chance to reroll warpstorm in order to roll on that Slaanesh table.
Real shame the Tzeentch disc passes a roll and thus can't be used turn one. No longer interested. :(
24409
Post by: Matt.Kingsley
Brometheus wrote:Matt, unless I am mistaken there is no such requirement/restriction for Chaos Daemons psykers in that regard. Just for CSM.
There is unfortunately. It differs from CSM in that Daemons aren't forced to take up to half, just that they can't generate more than half.
101224
Post by: Rydria
skarsol wrote:Not sure the Claw is good. Is it a weapon itself or an artifact?
Also, can't see myself giving up the chance to reroll warpstorm in order to roll on that Slaanesh table.
Real shame the Tzeentch disc passes a roll and thus can't be used turn one. No longer interested. :(
I play Mono slaanesh so I rarely got to reroll the warp storm table anyway, and I have the decurion bonuses to protect me from the dreaded snake eyes on the table now.
The only bad one is Bewitching Aura and Quicksilver Duelist (on a Herald with exalted Locus) the rest are good, re-rolls to hit of a 1 for the entire army is incredible.
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Post by: skarsol
Mono-slaanesh is already not super competitive; not sure I can give up even more in order to run the Decurion.
365
Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
skarsol wrote: Matt.Kingsley wrote:So... unless the expansion changes the wording of how Daemons generate their powers, The Endless Grimoire does nothing as Daemons are only allowed to generate up to half their powers from a god discipline.
Means you can only take it on a ML1 char.
It doesn't say the bearer has to generate all his powers from Change, only the Warlord. So if you made a different Herald the Warlord you could give him a different artefact, like Paradox, and stack the effects.
On the other hand, if he rolls the +1ML warlord trait I guess you're gak outta luck.
60813
Post by: Brometheus
Very well matt, i was dead wrong. Sorry! : )
12186
Post by: Sersi
Swampmist wrote:Well, there's the "Harness on a 3+" and "Run and Charge" rules. Their just WL traits. Still, I feel like there are atleast 3 traits on each of those tables that are good, which is more than most armies get.
Truth! At least Fear is not in any of them. Tzeentch made out like a bandit with their traits, as did Nurgle. Khorne is solid as well with to solid 8" bubble powers. Slaanesh is the weakest. Plus 1 attack....really? Slaaneshi daemons tend to have extra limbs and claws why not +2 attacks? An why to different traits that re-roll to hit? Slaaneshi warlords are all WS7-9. And another trait that reduces WS by -5 with an LD test in combat. Come on... Some grenades would have be nice. Or beast movement, hit & run, dusk strider. Or forcing range units to only snap fire at the Warlord. I was really hoping for something to help a KOS survive to reach combat.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
Nothing to be sorry about, it was just a simple mistake.
12186
Post by: Sersi
* Skullreaver: 30pts. S Uer, AP2, Melee, Specialist Weapon, Anathema (To Hit rolls of 6 are Strength D!!!). Bloodthirsters of any type or Demon Princes, replaces melee weapon. Fluff describes it as a huge axe with a Bloodthirster bound inside it
This is Awsome! Referencing Rouge Trader and 2nd Ed. Bloodthirster's wielding axes that turn into Bloodthirsters.
89474
Post by: Requizen
Huh, I've never seen that rule for Daemons generating powers. So yeah, literally the only way to get it would be to have a ML1 Psyker as the Warlord. So... bollocks for the most part.
Oracular Dias is still confusing. "At start of each of your turns, choose one friendly Chaos Demon Faction unit that is reserve and automatically pass its reserve roll." On Turn 1, you can't pass a Reserve roll because you don't start until Turn 2. But it is one of your turns, so you pick the unit?
Corruption is... kinda cool. Nurgle Princes wound on 2s against most things anyway (and reroll with Balesword thanks to that Poison if they're T5 or lower), but it's extremely good against Wraithknights or other GCs.
Is Whips of Agony only for the chick on the Chariot? That doesn't even work! She can't take Hellforged Artifacts, which seems to be the thing that allows you to take the new relics. Freaking lol.
12186
Post by: Sersi
skarsol wrote:Not sure the Claw is good. Is it a weapon itself or an artifact?
Also, can't see myself giving up the chance to reroll warpstorm in order to roll on that Slaanesh table.
Real shame the Tzeentch disc passes a roll and thus can't be used turn one. No longer interested. :(
The Slothful claws pretty good on a Herald. Its better than the Greater Etherblade/Etherblade combo I usually take now. As you still gain +1S and +1 attack. But now you get a single +2S/AP2/Rending attack for the same cost. So the herald is S5 with a GEB, and S7 for a single attack. I'd never take it on a KOS though.
What I'm not sure about is Silver Shard, +30 pts for 2 attacks? Greater Etherblade/Etherblade combo grants +1S and + 1 Attack. If you taking a KOS or DP why wouldn't you take The Soul Stealer and regain wounds for each model slain?
Its a really shame you can only take on per model...while a Space Marine Chapter Master can take well everything. 
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote:Huh, I've never seen that rule for Daemons generating powers. So yeah, literally the only way to get it would be to have a ML1 Psyker as the Warlord. So... bollocks for the most part.
I'd complete forgotten about it because in 3 years I've never used the CD book powers. I made sense when the Lore only had half the number of power. It'll probably received a FAQ in a year or so.
Is Whips of Agony only for the chick on the Chariot? That doesn't even work! She can't take Hellforged Artifacts, which seems to be the thing that allows you to take the new relics. Freaking lol.
S3/AP3/Melee/ Re-rolls to wound? It does nothing because it will wound nothing. Well maybe a guardsman or fire warrior, who would be dead anyway. Spring for the extra 5 pts and get the Greater Etherblade for S4/AP2/Specialist/Mastercrafted; or the Lash of Despair for S3/ AP-/ 2D6 shots. But really why bother she'll be dead after the first charge anyway, so save the points for something else.
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Post by: Rydria
Sersi wrote:What I'm not sure about is Silver Shard, +30 pts for 2 attacks? Greater Etherblade/Etherblade combo grants +1S and + 1 Attack. If you taking a KOS or DP why wouldn't you take The Soul Stealer and regain wounds for each model slain?
Greater Etherblade/Etherblade on a DP/ KOS takes up 2 of your gifts while the silver shard takes up none. The Soul Stealer is superior however shame neither of the weapons are specialist but at least there both good/decent.
Sersi wrote:S3/AP3/Melee/ Re-rolls to wound? It does nothing because it will wound nothing. Well maybe a guardsman or fire warrior, who would be dead anyway. Spring for the extra 5 pts and get the Greater Etherblade for S4/AP2/Specialist/Mastercrafted; or the Lash of Despair for S3/ AP-/ 2D6 shots. But really why bother she'll be dead after the first charge anyway, so save the points for something else.
You can use her against some solo monsters to disable them due to shred + rending combo, that is the only niche I can think about for a chariot armed with the whip of agony.
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Post by: Virules
Can we get a confirmation on how many soul grinders have to be in the formation? That will be a big tip-off as to how expensive it will be to try to run the decurion, since the soul grinder one can fulfill the auxiliary requirement.
Anyway, now that we have more points and info, here is what I would do at 1850 if I wanted to run my Daemons for a fun game while still at least trying to be competitive:
Tzeentch CAD:
1x Fateweaver (Warlord)
1x Herald of Tzeentch, lvl 3, the Oracular Dais
1x Herald of Tzeentch, lvl 3, greater gift (Grimmoire)
12x Horrors
12x Horrors
Nurgle Allied:
1x Herald of Nurgle, lvl 2, greater + lesser gift (ap2 etherblade + Instant Death Balesword), palanquin, FNP Locus, Grotti the Nurgling
1x Herald of Nurgle, lvl 2, greater + lesser gift (ap2 etherblade + Instant Death Balesword), palanquin, Horn of Nurgle's Rot
20x Plague Bearers, plague banner
Chaos Space Marine Allied:
1x Sorcerer, lvl 3
1x Rhino, Death of Kasyr Lutien
5x Chaos Space Marines
1x Chaos Fire Raptor, balefire missiles, vessel of tzenkh the occluder
21 psychic dice base.
Turn 1, fly in with 2++ fateweaver and/or hide the herald on a disc, depending on which has Cursed Earth. Turn 2, no-scatter drop in the plague bearer super-unit right in front of the enemy army, drop grimmoire on them, boost them with the +3 toughness power if you have it. You should now have a 22-model, 2++, toughness 7, FNP, shrouded unit with two Heralds inside lowering enemy toughness by -1, causing poisoned Instant Death by the heralds (poisoned 2+ for 1 round), and spawning some replacement plague bearers into the unit every combat (and they can glance vehicles to death).
Meanwhile, Fateweaver is casting novas, D-shots, and summoning burning chariots in the middle of the enemy army. The rhino in the back is helping your herald(s) and horrors reliably cast summoning spells on very few psychic dice, with screamers, seekers, and daemonettes moving upfield fast for objectives or to help your nurglestar. The Fire Raptor deals with enemy fliers and light armor/infantry that moves around too fast to catch. Fateweaver's warp storm re-roll helps you keep the table in your favor.
It's not good against everything, but any army that can't deal with both the nurglestar in the backfield + all the psychic powers + the warpstorm at the same time is going to have fits.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
That Khorne weapon that hits on a 2+ in a challenge is nasty with the Warlord trait that allows a single hit at SD AP2. That's pretty cool I guess.
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Post by: GoonBandito
Virules wrote:Can we get a confirmation on how many soul grinders have to be in the formation? That will be a big tip-off as to how expensive it will be to try to run the decurion, since the soul grinder one can fulfill the auxiliary requirement.
Forgehost is 3 Soul Grinders, of any configuration.
Demonic Incursion needs 1 Core Choice and 1 Auxiliary. It can have up to 3 Command choices, and any number of additional Core or Auxiliary Choices.
Core
* Murderhorde,
* Warpflame Host
* Tallyband
* Flayertrope
Command
* Demon Lord (1 Bloodthirster of any type, Skarbrand, Fateweaver, Ku'gath Plaguefather, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One, Keeper of Secrets, Be'lakor or Demon Prince). This is not a standalone formation
* Infernal Tetrad
Auxiliary
* Gorethunder Battery
* Burning Skyhost
* Rotswarm
* Grand Cavalcade
* Forgehost
* Demon Flock (1 unit of Chaos Furies). Not a standalone formation.
* The Hunter of Khorne (Karanak). Not a standalone formation.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Aaaand we're in business.
101169
Post by: hhhdan
GoonBandito wrote: Virules wrote:Can we get a confirmation on how many soul grinders have to be in the formation? That will be a big tip-off as to how expensive it will be to try to run the decurion, since the soul grinder one can fulfill the auxiliary requirement.
Forgehost is 3 Soul Grinders, of any configuration.
Demonic Incursion needs 1 Core Choice and 1 Auxiliary. It can have up to 3 Command choices, and any number of additional Core or Auxiliary Choices.
Core
* Murderhorde,
* Warpflame Host
* Tallyband
* Flayertrope
Command
* Demon Lord (1 Bloodthirster of any type, Skarbrand, Fateweaver, Ku'gath Plaguefather, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One, Keeper of Secrets, Be'lakor or Demon Prince). This is not a standalone formation
* Infernal Tetrad
Auxiliary
* Gorethunder Battery
* Burning Skyhost
* Rotswarm
* Grand Cavalcade
* Forgehost
* Demon Flock (1 unit of Chaos Furies). Not a standalone formation.
* The Hunter of Khorne (Karanak). Not a standalone formation.
Awesome that i can take furies as auxiliary, but I just wish there was any way of getting an extra herald or two without taking a massive formation.
At 1500 points mono-tzeentch I am thinking of something like:
Fateweaver 300
Lord of change ML3 Exalted, Lesser Impossible robe 320
Herald (ML3, Paradox, disc, Exalted) 175
12 Horrors, icon, instrument 128
11 Horrors 99
11 Horrors 99
3 Flamers 63
3 Flamers 63
3 Flamers 63
Exalted Flamer 50
Exalted Flamer 50
Exalted Flamer 50
Furies 35
That gets me to exactly 1500 points.
Alternatively in a CAD could go for:
Fateweaver
Herald (ML3, Paradox, disc, locus) 170
Herald (ML3, Endless grimoire, disc) 160
Herald (ML3, Exalted, disc) 150
11 Horrors 99
11 Horrors 99
9 Screamers 225
1x Sorcerer, lvl 3 110
1x Rhino, Death of Kasyr Lutien 50
5x Chaos Space Marines 65
plus some upgrades gets me to almost 1500
Paradox + grimoire will let me bring a chariot a turn on 5 dice, or spit a D-weapon from a screamerstar, sorcerer and/or horrors summon quite reliably with the rhino. With the rest of the points (i have about 70 left i think i'll take something to protect the rhino, like an aegis defense line or something... This gives me 21+ D6 dice to work with, so 16+ D6 after herald casts, so technically i could bring in 3 squads each turn quite reliably, pretty cool IMO
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another cool thing is with the Oracular dais you can essentially autopass reserves on two units because it is worded as: you automatically pass a reserve roll and with an instrument of chaos when you pass a reserve roll you can bring another unit with that unit.
So horrors can bring flamers on turn two to do some roasting. Having two units coming in automatically turn 2 is actually very decent for 10 points (as it is also a disc of tzeentch dais is 35-25=10 points)
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Post by: BlaxicanX
The run+charge WL trait means an almsot assured first-turn charge for a herald+seekers, since their average first turn movement is ~22'', and that's not even including the charge itself.
They'll have around a 26'' threat range at all times. Slap invisibility on those bad boys and you're good to go.
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Post by: Quarterdime
 trep99 wrote:RAW question on new warlord traits for Nurgle:
1) Nurgle's acid ichor does not specify "unsaved wound", other powers usually do (even virulent touch and miasma of pestilence in this new table). If you save the wound do you still make the poison hit?
2) Impenetrable Hide: if you gain FNP later is it at +1, i.e. Endurance or locus of fenductity?
RAI is so obvious here it hurts.
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Post by: Mymearan
 BlaxicanX wrote:The run+charge WL trait means an almsot assured first-turn charge for a herald+seekers, since their average first turn movement is ~22'', and that's not even including the charge itself.
They'll have around a 26'' threat range at all times. Slap invisibility on those bad boys and you're good to go.
Is there a way to guarantee a warlord trait for demons?
101095
Post by: zamerion
GoonBandito
So a unit of furies, or karanak take a place of auxiliar to make the decurion?????? 
And what happen with kairos? It has lord of unreality warlord trait, but that name isnt in the new warlord trait..
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Post by: CrownAxe
 Mymearan wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:The run+charge WL trait means an almsot assured first-turn charge for a herald+seekers, since their average first turn movement is ~22'', and that's not even including the charge itself.
They'll have around a 26'' threat range at all times. Slap invisibility on those bad boys and you're good to go.
Is there a way to guarantee a warlord trait for demons?
No. You can at least get a reroll from using a CAD
101234
Post by: Mushkin
Quick question for rules lawyers. Given the wording of the Tz core formation, could the exalted flamers be in burning chariots?
And for everyone else: would the formation be substantially better if they could?
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Post by: King Pyrrhus
Am I right in understanding that the formation benefit for the Grand Cavalcade is an additional 6 inches added on to their run move?
Does that mean Seekers from that formation can run D6 (with rerolls for fleet), +6 for being a Daemon of Slaanesh then an additional 6 inches for the formation bonus? So a total run move of 18 inches?
So if you have a herald is in the squad with the run then charge Warlord trait the Seeker squad could charge something up to 42 inches away?
101169
Post by: hhhdan
Mushkin wrote:Quick question for rules lawyers. Given the wording of the Tz core formation, could the exalted flamers be in burning chariots?
And for everyone else: would the formation be substantially better if they could?
Unfortunately no, as they are two completely separate entries... And exalted flamer can't take a chariot as an upgrade.
I suppose it would be better, but it would be more expensive, but i would gladly substitute exalted flamers for chariots... I think i will just use them as turrets, daemonic turrets that you can deepstrike and leave on the objectives to guard them daemonic tarantulas! and if they die they still continue holding the objective until it is cleansed by enemy unit
What would truly be better is if they just added 1 little thing to his profile: "Relentless" 
101234
Post by: Mushkin
hhhdan wrote:Mushkin wrote:Quick question for rules lawyers. Given the wording of the Tz core formation, could the exalted flamers be in burning chariots?
And for everyone else: would the formation be substantially better if they could?
Unfortunately no, as they are two completely separate entries... And exalted flamer can't take a chariot as an upgrade.
I suppose it would be better, but it would be more expensive, but i would gladly substitute exalted flamers for chariots... I think i will just use them as turrets, daemonic turrets that you can deepstrike and leave on the objectives to guard them daemonic tarantulas! and if they die they still continue holding the objective until it is cleansed by enemy unit
What would truly be better is if they just added 1 little thing to his profile: "Relentless"
Yeah, I know you're probably right lol And I don't want to push this too far. But just for fun...
An interesting complication is that, within the burning chariot profile in Codex: CD, there is a profile entry both for the flamer, and for the chariot. And there is a row for each under 'unit composition'. For the flamer, it says: 'unit composition: 1 Exalted Flamer'. Which may allow one to claim that, in buying burning chariots, you are also - thereby - buying a unit called an Exalted Flamer, and fulfilling the unit requirements of the formation.
Hmmm....
101169
Post by: hhhdan
Mushkin wrote:hhhdan wrote:Mushkin wrote:Quick question for rules lawyers. Given the wording of the Tz core formation, could the exalted flamers be in burning chariots?
And for everyone else: would the formation be substantially better if they could?
Unfortunately no, as they are two completely separate entries... And exalted flamer can't take a chariot as an upgrade.
I suppose it would be better, but it would be more expensive, but i would gladly substitute exalted flamers for chariots... I think i will just use them as turrets, daemonic turrets that you can deepstrike and leave on the objectives to guard them daemonic tarantulas! and if they die they still continue holding the objective until it is cleansed by enemy unit
What would truly be better is if they just added 1 little thing to his profile: "Relentless"
Yeah, I know you're probably right lol And I don't want to push this too far. But just for fun...
An interesting complication is that, within the burning chariot profile in Codex: CD, there is a profile entry both for the flamer, and for the chariot. And there is a row for each under 'unit composition'. For the flamer, it says: 'unit composition: 1 Exalted Flamer'. Which may allow one to claim that, in buying burning chariots, you are also - thereby - buying a unit called an Exalted Flamer, and fulfilling the unit requirements of the formation.
Hmmm....
i see the argument, but it is still refuting the fact that if they wanted to allow chariots they would say it under what units must be taken. If for example a formation would say it requires a leman russ, could it be argued that you can take a tank commander or pask instead of leman russ, as a part of the entry for the tank commander is a leman russ?
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Post by: zamerion
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17357&d=1455171625
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17358&d=1455171626
Very cheap decurion. CAD (screamstar + kairos) + decurion of tzeentch sound interesting..
Someone knows something about kairos?? change his warlord trait or something????
70127
Post by: luke1705
I'm really still not convinced that these command benefits are worth taking like 7 units of nurglings or a bunch of pink horrors or way too many bloodletters or daemonettes since I prefer to run multiple gods in my list. The core is super expensive. That being said, if you wanted to run mono god, I could see it. I feel like khorne and slaanesh would work best since horrors and nurglings really just want to sit on those objectives anyhow.
But those RELICS. Definitely need to revamp my list to include them. I mean wow. Do we have picture confirmation that they can be in a CAD? I believe Goon but I just want to see the wording for myself.
12186
Post by: Sersi
 King Pyrrhus wrote:Am I right in understanding that the formation benefit for the Grand Cavalcade is an additional 6 inches added on to their run move?
Does that mean Seekers from that formation can run D6 (with rerolls for fleet), +6 for being a Daemon of Slaanesh then an additional 6 inches for the formation bonus? So a total run move of 18 inches?
So if you have a herald is in the squad with the run then charge Warlord trait the Seeker squad could charge something up to 42 inches away?
Potentially yes! Automatically Appended Next Post: zamerion wrote:GoonBandito
So a unit of furies, or karanak take a place of auxiliar to make the decurion??????
And what happen with kairos? It has lord of unreality warlord trait, but that name isnt in the new warlord trait..
He has a fixed trait in his entry so it would stay the same as he did't get an updated Data slate or exception.
31941
Post by: avedominusnox
So whips of agony can't be taken by anything. As mentioned it is exalted aluress only and can be take only by a model that can buy an exalted reward. So not even her can take it since she can buy only lesser and greater. Cool. I think the nurgle instrument is the best relic in there.
6107
Post by: vercingatorix
So am I understanding the unending grimoire correctly? Basically if fateweaver is your warlord then the unending grimoire does absolutely nothing because he generates psychic powers on a bunch of a tables?
It's also worded so it seems that 'He" refers to the warlord not the model that has it. As in, this model over here takes the unending grimoire, the warlord only generates from change table, well now the warlord knows all the change powers. However it does nothing for the model holding it.
The rules "The Endless Grimoire: 35pts. If your Warlord generates all his powers from Change, he knows all the Change powers. Herald of Tzeentch only."
Is he referring to the holder or the warlord? I could see it going both ways honestly.
93755
Post by: AncientSkarbrand
No change to the loci, is there?
76717
Post by: CrownAxe
vercingatorix wrote:So am I understanding the unending grimoire correctly? Basically if fateweaver is your warlord then the unending grimoire does absolutely nothing because he generates psychic powers on a bunch of a tables?
It's also worded so it seems that 'He" refers to the warlord not the model that has it. As in, this model over here takes the unending grimoire, the warlord only generates from change table, well now the warlord knows all the change powers. However it does nothing for the model holding it.
The rules "The Endless Grimoire: 35pts. If your Warlord generates all his powers from Change, he knows all the Change powers. Herald of Tzeentch only."
Is he referring to the holder or the warlord? I could see it going both ways honestly.
Fateweaver already knows all the of the Change discipline.
6107
Post by: vercingatorix
CrownAxe wrote: vercingatorix wrote:So am I understanding the unending grimoire correctly? Basically if fateweaver is your warlord then the unending grimoire does absolutely nothing because he generates psychic powers on a bunch of a tables?
It's also worded so it seems that 'He" refers to the warlord not the model that has it. As in, this model over here takes the unending grimoire, the warlord only generates from change table, well now the warlord knows all the change powers. However it does nothing for the model holding it.
The rules "The Endless Grimoire: 35pts. If your Warlord generates all his powers from Change, he knows all the Change powers. Herald of Tzeentch only."
Is he referring to the holder or the warlord? I could see it going both ways honestly.
Fateweaver already knows all the of the Change discipline.
So you think it is on the warlord and not the model? I didn't phrase it well but it's a two part question.
Does fateweaver nullify the unending grimoire?
Does the unending grimoire affect the model with the upgrade or the warlod?
89474
Post by: Requizen
From how I understand it, the Endless Grimoire is useful if and only if your Warlord is a ML1 Daemon Prince or Herald of Tzeentch. Otherwise, it's pointless. And even then, who wants a ML1 Psyker on the board at all? We're Daemons!
Everstave is looking pretty ok for a FMC Prince. Warpflame sucks, but S5 AP3 is good for roasting any cover-camping MEQs or worse, especially if you take it in conjunction with a Heldrake or something else that can chuck out AP3 Templates.
Oracular Dias still is confusing to me. "At the start of each of your turns..." would seem to indicate that it brings in a Reserve on Turn 1. "...automatically pass their reserve roll." makes it sound like it doesn't work on Turn 1. That'll need a serious ruling before it makes it worthwhile.
101237
Post by: Samii
This may have been posted already, if so apologies, but do the new Hellforged Artefacts replace those from the main Chaos Daemons book? It seems odd to have two types of Hellforged Artefact; one that you swap an Exalted Reward for (i.e. The Grimoire, Portaglyph, Doomstone etc.) and one that you can just purchase for a flat fee. As a model can only have one Hellforged Artefact it would follow that, if the Artefact is purchsed, then that model could not swap Exalted Rewards for the main Hellforged Artefacts; such as swapping for the Grimoire, for instance? I also noticed that the 'Warp Tether' power appears as both a Warlord Trait and as an Exalted Reward. Unless the new book has changed the way Exalted Rewards work, this would seem to create some confusion. Any advice? Thanks.
87991
Post by: Virules
It doesn't need a ruling. Reserve rolls only kick in from turn 2 onwards, at which point you can auto pass one per turn.
Too bad...I was hoping it was any reserves, and from turn 1 onward. Oh well.
76982
Post by: Tonberry7
From the wordings that have been leaked it looks like they way that the unending grimoire works is that you would have to take it on an ML1 herald and then make him your warlord. You could still bring fatey who already knows all of Change, just not as warlord. It's strange that the unending grimoire specifies the warlord though rather than the bearer or model.
6107
Post by: vercingatorix
Tonberry7 wrote:From the wordings that have been leaked it looks like they way that the unending grimoire works is that you would have to take it on an ML1 herald and then make him your warlord. You could still bring fatey who already knows all of Change, just not as warlord. It's strange that the unending grimoire specifies the warlord though rather than the bearer or model.
That's how I'm reading it as well. It's such a useful relic totally eviscerated by the small writing. :(
I wonder if we'll be able to choose on which table to roll for tzeentch table. Getting the D-shot or ignore cover would be nice but I think in most cases I'd prefer the reliability of getting the beam with a level 3 herald.
89474
Post by: Requizen
Virules wrote:It doesn't need a ruling. Reserve rolls only kick in from turn 2 onwards, at which point you can auto pass one per turn.
Too bad...I was hoping it was any reserves, and from turn 1 onward. Oh well.
That's really stupid considering you autopass on T4 anyway, so it's only useful for 2 turns.
Still, I guess it's only 10 points more than a regular disc, so you're at worst paying 10 points for one autopass, or if you fail one on T2 you get another free one on T3. That's... still not too bad, depending. If you're running CSM allied, that's 10 points to guarantee a Heldrake comes on T2, which is pretty ok.
A neat combo could be something like, Herald with the Oracular Disc, Tzeentch Prince with Everstave, CSM Prince with Burning Brand, and Heldrake. That's 3 Flyers with AP3 Flamers, guaranteed all to be on by T2 (unless you reserve the Princes, I suppose), one of which is Torrent, which basically guarantees blobs of dead models every turn. Could be pretty decent for a Flying Circus list, if you could manage the points.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Virules wrote:Can we get a confirmation on how many soul grinders have to be in the formation? That will be a big tip-off as to how expensive it will be to try to run the decurion, since the soul grinder one can fulfill the auxiliary requirement.
Easiest way to fulfill the Auxiliary requirement is a flock of Furies or Karanak.
93755
Post by: AncientSkarbrand
If you use it in conjunction with instruments, you can bring the instrument unit in automatically and chain whatever reserve unit you actually wanted in as well, and if those two units are the same god you can place the second squad within 6" and not scatter if you also have an icon.
So potentially can be used to bring 4 units in by turn 3 with perfect accuracy on the second unit to deepstrike per turn.
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Post by: Sersi
avedominusnox wrote:So whips of agony can't be taken by anything. As mentioned it is exalted aluress only and can be take only by a model that can buy an exalted reward. So not even her can take it since she can buy only lesser and greater. Cool. I think the nurgle instrument is the best relic in there.
Where's "exalted" reward specified? The Slaanesh artifact page only specifies Daemons of Slaanesh that have the option to take "Daemonic Rewards", while each artifact specifies who can take them.
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Post by: ThirstySpaceMan
I may need to start a nurgle/slannesh themed army. Perhaps The syphilis cavalcade?
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Post by: avedominusnox
Sersi wrote: avedominusnox wrote:So whips of agony can't be taken by anything. As mentioned it is exalted aluress only and can be take only by a model that can buy an exalted reward. So not even her can take it since she can buy only lesser and greater. Cool. I think the nurgle instrument is the best relic in there.
Where's "exalted" reward specified? The Slaanesh artifact page only specifies Daemons of Slaanesh that have the option to take "Daemonic Rewards", while each artifact specifies who can take them.
Yeah sorry you are right, though someone on the posts on spikey bits and faeit mentioned that relics are specific to the model that can buy exalted rewards. But damn you are right. Each one says who can take it.
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Post by: Sersi
Samii wrote:This may have been posted already, if so apologies, but do the new Hellforged Artefacts replace those from the main Chaos Daemons book? It seems odd to have two types of Hellforged Artefact; one that you swap an Exalted Reward for (i.e. The Grimoire, Portaglyph, Doomstone etc.) and one that you can just purchase for a flat fee. As a model can only have one Hellforged Artefact it would follow that, if the Artefact is purchsed, then that model could not swap Exalted Rewards for the main Hellforged Artefacts; such as swapping for the Grimoire, for instance? I also noticed that the 'Warp Tether' power appears as both a Warlord Trait and as an Exalted Reward. Unless the new book has changed the way Exalted Rewards work, this would seem to create some confusion. Any advice? Thanks.
The artifact pages specifically say that the new artifacts are in addition to the old ones. The old rewards still function as before with either rolling and swapping. You may then choose to purchase the new artifacts dependent on the bearer.
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Post by: Samii
Thanks a million.
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Post by: The Internet is for Khorn
Here's a flying circus idea I had:
Daemonic Incursion Detachment
Tallyband
(135) Herald of Nurgle: ML1, Palanquin, Greater Locus
(45) 3 Nurgling Swarms
(45) 3 Nurgling Swarms
(45) 3 Nurgling Swarms
(45) 3 Nurgling Swarms
(45) 3 Nurgling Swarms
(45) 3 Nurgling Swarms
(45) 3 Nurgling Swarms
Infernal Tetrad
(370) Daemon Prince of Nurgle: ML3, Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Rewards, 1 Lesser, Corruption
(355) Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: ML3, Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Rewards, 1 Lesser-Warlord
(340) Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: ML3, Wings, Armor, Exalted Reward, Greater Reward
(300) Daemon Prince of Khorne: Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Rewards, 1 Lesser, Skullreaper
Daemon Flock
(35) 5 Chaos Furies
I want to use either the Tzeentch or Nurgle warlord trait table to buff the whole Daemon Prince Squad. My only issue is whether it'd be better to use the Tzeentch Table (generate on a 3+, +1 to invuln, +1 to mastery level all are very good) or the Nurgle Table (Feel no Pain or buffed FnP, +1 wound, or the Snap shots within 7" one).
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Post by: Vomikron Noxis
So excited to see the new list ideas coming out of the new book!
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Post by: luke1705
Anyone have ideas on how to reliably grant access to the 6 psychic power on the nurgle table? Seems really odd that you can only generate half of your powers from any given god's table (and this is a big deal if you're trying to roll that 6 with heralds - your odds are pretty bad (only 33 percent) if you have two nurgle heralds. If both heralds could roll twice on the table, you would have a 55 percent chance of getting that power, which I think I could (and would) roll for and live with if I didn't. But even that isn't great odds.
If GW decide to fix this and let the daemons roll all of their powers on the table for their respective gods, that would be great. Talk to me about a T8 squad of plague drones with FNP.
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
Where does it have this apparent restriction written? I've never seen it or played with it. I might have overlooked it I suppose.
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Post by: luke1705
AncientSkarbrand wrote:Where does it have this apparent restriction written? I've never seen it or played with it. I might have overlooked it I suppose.
I think we all did because we never rolled on those awful tables before. Now that they're actually good (or can be in the right list), it's a thing. It's before the HQ section, in section that lists the disciplines, under the heading "Generating Psychic Powers". First paragraph.
I REALLY want to find a way around this to make the T8 plague drones a reliable thing, that I can get in say 60/70 percent of my games or more. If only there was a "knows all the plague discipline relic".....that would be hot.
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Post by: Mushkin
Interested to know whether the new artefacts alter the consensus that the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage is the only Bloodthirster worth taking. You can now get a standard, Unfettered Fury bloodthirster and give it the new D-on-a-6 weapon. This gives you two specialist weapons for +1 attack, which don't have unwieldy, and with a chance of D, for 5 pts more than a D-thirster, before rewards. Seems an equally good option, no?
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Post by: luke1705
Mushkin wrote:Interested to know whether the new artefacts alter the consensus that the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage is the only Bloodthirster worth taking. You can now get a standard, Unfettered Fury bloodthirster and give it the new D-on-a-6 weapon. This gives you two specialist weapons for +1 attack, which don't have unwieldy, and with a chance of D, for 5 pts more than a D-thirster, before rewards. Seems an equally good option, no?
I had the same thought, but you're still only going to get a hit or two that is D, on average. That's great - don't get me wrong. A lot of times, the D thirster is overkill. But when you NEED to 6 something on the D table, you also NEED the D thirster. Unwieldy is a problem - don't get me wrong. But that's why you make him durable enough to take the hits. When you are looking to maybe get lucky with MAYBE rolling a D and MAYBE rolling a 6, it's 1/36 attacks that that will happen, or roughly 1/6 combats (approximating - it's a little higher). But basically it'll happen once a game. I'd rather have it happen roughly once every time I charge. Just saying. I'll take unwieldy in exchange for that, like 10/10 times.
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
Well, I must say... feth that restriction. There's no reason my daemons who are but a splinter of their patron god would have restricted access to magic of that God.
Seriously, what the feth! Is that not completely absurd?
I'm sure my group will let me ignore it, but I'm fortunate with that. I feel bad for those who won't be allowed to ignore it. Maybe they omitted it from the new codex. My group knows my builds have been suffering lately mainly in the diversity category, and won't mind house ruling that.
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Post by: luke1705
Interesting to note - all of these hell forged artifacts can be taken on summoned units - the regular thirster can be summoned with 30 points of rewards IIRC. Can someone tell me why I think this haha? I don't see it in the rules lol Automatically Appended Next Post: AncientSkarbrand wrote:Well, I must say... feth that restriction. There's no reason my daemons who are but a splinter of their patron god would have restricted access to magic of that God.
Seriously, what the feth! Is that not completely absurd?
I'm sure my group will let me ignore it, but I'm fortunate with that. I feel bad for those who won't be allowed to ignore it. Maybe they omitted it from the new codex. My group knows my builds have been suffering lately mainly in the diversity category, and won't mind house ruling that.
See mine wouldn't care either, but I like to play my army the same way as it would play if I took it to a big event, so as a rule, I wouldn't go for that. Maybe there's something in the campaign book that overrides it.
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
I also would play the way you described, if I didn't live 2.5 hours away from the nearest tournament venue!
The next closest is 4 hours from me, so my version of 40k is quite friendly, none of us will see a tournament we didn't organize. I am attempting to see if my group will let me tack relentless and gets hot on exalted flamers for a points bump. I'm surprised they didn't give it as an option and call it "fickle fyrewyrm" or something. Would make the warp flame host better. I'm going to try it without the house rule first, of course.
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Post by: luke1705
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I also would play the way you described, if I didn't live 2.5 hours away from the nearest tournament venue!
The next closest is 4 hours from me, so my version of 40k is quite friendly, none of us will see a tournament we didn't organize. I am attempting to see if my group will let me tack relentless and gets hot on exalted flamers for a points bump. I'm surprised they didn't give it as an option and call it "fickle fyrewyrm" or something. Would make the warp flame host better. I'm going to try it without the house rule first, of course.
I'm just going to read the psychic section very carefully. The generation rules applied to an old version of the disciplines of change, plague and excess. It doesn't seem like a huge stretch to say that they are different tables, though they do have the same name, and so therefore maybe the half generation rules would no longer apply. For example, previously a ML3 psyker would not have to roll - he would simply know all of the powers on a given table. As is, a ML3 psyker would only be able to know half of the powers.
My thinking is that maybe GW's intent with the "half" rule was to keep an element of randomness and not allow the daemons to guarantee that they know an entire discipline every game (you know, because those disciplines were so OP OP). As it stands with what we know now from the rules, however, the RAW seems to lean the other way, and would be classified as ambiguous at best. Here's to hoping for some clarity with the official release!
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Post by: Harriticus
Slaanesh doesn't exist anymore according to GW, silly billy. Didn't you see the new Acheron model?
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Post by: Ghaz
 Harriticus wrote:
Slaanesh doesn't exist anymore according to GW, silly billy. Didn't you see the new Acheron model?
The Age of Sigmar fluff (which never says that Slaanesh no longer exists), has no effect on 40K.
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Post by: Bi'ios
Harriticus wrote:
Slaanesh doesn't exist anymore according to GW, silly billy. Didn't you see the new Acheron model?
You mean that Archaon model with the symbol of Slannesh on it?
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Post by: Sersi
Mushkin wrote:Interested to know whether the new artefacts alter the consensus that the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage is the only Bloodthirster worth taking. You can now get a standard, Unfettered Fury bloodthirster and give it the new D-on-a-6 weapon. This gives you two specialist weapons for +1 attack, which don't have unwieldy, and with a chance of D, for 5 pts more than a D-thirster, before rewards. Seems an equally good option, no?
Why not both? Automatically Appended Next Post: AncientSkarbrand wrote:Well, I must say... feth that restriction. There's no reason my daemons who are but a splinter of their patron god would have restricted access to magic of that God.
Seriously, what the feth! Is that not completely absurd?
I'm sure my group will let me ignore it, but I'm fortunate with that. I feel bad for those who won't be allowed to ignore it. Maybe they omitted it from the new codex. My group knows my builds have been suffering lately mainly in the diversity category, and won't mind house ruling that.
Its really just a relic of use having only a 1/2 lore in the book. Same with CSM. Imagine is will be FAQ'd in a year or so. Like when we get our new book...so yeah. Automatically Appended Next Post: Harriticus wrote:
Slaanesh doesn't exist anymore according to GW, silly billy. Didn't you see the new Acheron model?
Trust and believe s/he will be back in a big way. I don't no why there so much hate for the coolest god/goddess. Player insecurity maybe. I mean come one man "Sex, drugs, and rock'n roll". If your not down with that you are to old.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Requizen wrote: Virules wrote:It doesn't need a ruling. Reserve rolls only kick in from turn 2 onwards, at which point you can auto pass one per turn.
Too bad...I was hoping it was any reserves, and from turn 1 onward. Oh well.
That's really stupid considering you autopass on T4 anyway, so it's only useful for 2 turns.
Still, I guess it's only 10 points more than a regular disc, so you're at worst paying 10 points for one autopass, or if you fail one on T2 you get another free one on T3. That's... still not too bad, depending. If you're running CSM allied, that's 10 points to guarantee a Heldrake comes on T2, which is pretty ok.
A neat combo could be something like, Herald with the Oracular Disc, Tzeentch Prince with Everstave, CSM Prince with Burning Brand, and Heldrake. That's 3 Flyers with AP3 Flamers, guaranteed all to be on by T2 (unless you reserve the Princes, I suppose), one of which is Torrent, which basically guarantees blobs of dead models every turn. Could be pretty decent for a Flying Circus list, if you could manage the points.
IIRC, the Disc's rules stipulate you can only auto-pass a reserve roll for a unit with the 'Chaos Daemons' faction. So no using it to bring on CSM units, because feth Chaos getting any kind of real synergy!
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Post by: Requizen
Experiment 626 wrote:Requizen wrote: Virules wrote:It doesn't need a ruling. Reserve rolls only kick in from turn 2 onwards, at which point you can auto pass one per turn.
Too bad...I was hoping it was any reserves, and from turn 1 onward. Oh well.
That's really stupid considering you autopass on T4 anyway, so it's only useful for 2 turns.
Still, I guess it's only 10 points more than a regular disc, so you're at worst paying 10 points for one autopass, or if you fail one on T2 you get another free one on T3. That's... still not too bad, depending. If you're running CSM allied, that's 10 points to guarantee a Heldrake comes on T2, which is pretty ok.
A neat combo could be something like, Herald with the Oracular Disc, Tzeentch Prince with Everstave, CSM Prince with Burning Brand, and Heldrake. That's 3 Flyers with AP3 Flamers, guaranteed all to be on by T2 (unless you reserve the Princes, I suppose), one of which is Torrent, which basically guarantees blobs of dead models every turn. Could be pretty decent for a Flying Circus list, if you could manage the points.
IIRC, the Disc's rules stipulate you can only auto-pass a reserve roll for a unit with the 'Chaos Daemons' faction. So no using it to bring on CSM units, because feth Chaos getting any kind of real synergy!
...well poop.
I still stand by Everstave/Burning Brand/Heldrake AP3 Flamer Flying Circus being good, even if you can't guarantee the T2 reserve.
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Post by: CrownAxe
You can use Dais on FW Blight Drones you take though the Daemon codex
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
I'm pretty sure the Grimoir text is a typo, it does make little sens, no matters how many time i try to wrap my head around it.
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Post by: Sersi
Is Soulstealer potent enough on a KOS for her to just take a single greater reward for defense?
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Post by: AncientSkarbrand
Unless you roll hellfire gaze or touch of uncreation, it might be enough. The moment you do roll that though... you're running around with nothing but a 5++. You could mitigate that however with the grimoire in your list or a little shrouding or invisibility. I'm always frightened to not take 2 greater rewards.
It's gonna take some games to see exactly how this changes things. But that sword has potential to drastically increase survivability, as long as you get in one combat with anything other than necron wraiths you're virtually guaranteed 2 wounds replaced. 10 pts gives you another attack in the form of an ether blade as well, giving you an even better chance to gain wounds.
Some of the slaanesh warlord traits would also synergize well with that relic. The new equipment at least is interesting indeed. I'm excited about it because I've gotten in a rut with my characters, they always have the same setup.
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
Oh God, i've just read the last fluff bit of the book that is leaked, i love this, hahahaha!, its freakin fantastic!!!
Oh Dear Dark Gods balls i cannot help myself!, when i imagine the face of our SW players in our LGC when they will read this!!!, its fething Priceless!!!
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Post by: Experiment 626
 Slayer le boucher wrote:Oh God, i've just read the last fluff bit of the book that is leaked, i love this, hahahaha!, its freakin fantastic!!!
Oh Dear Dark Gods balls i cannot help myself!, when i imagine the face of our SW players in our LGC when they will read this!!!, its fething Priceless!!!
Do share with those of us who don't our book yet?!
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Post by: Swampmist
As they said in the SW thread, the DA blew up Fenris with extreme prejudice. Dunno what's up with the Daemon's though.
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
Well sicne we're blowing it, The Changeling is aboard the Rock and relays the Orders from Azrael to Nuke Fenris after Asmodai confirmed that the whole systeme was over run by Daemons and that the Wulfen was not under the SW protection only, but that Wulfen are Mutated forms of SW, so they are defacto Mutants and need to be Purged.
You have the whole DA fleet Nuking Fenris out of the Sky while the Changeling is smiling.
Some Karmic justice here...
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