I guess the dials are involved in the initiative sequence, but I hope they dictate more actions than simple things like moving forward and wheeling.
As for the game dials, there are numerous posts, videos and articles demonstrating an interesting array of game play mechanics.
I personally like that the minis appear fast to paint and less "bling."
With all said, I'd be a bit concerned if I was eager to play. It's an investment to take off, with an immense amount of competition. Enthusiasts may have to create a scene for this one.
CoreCommander wrote: The miniatures seem to be nicely casted with plain, ordinary detail - easy to paint and identify by newbs. I see that they turned away from their initial idea of having entirely pre-built models to appeal to a wider audience. You only get one type of model per unit though so all your skeletons, infantry and cavalry look the same. I'd have thought about getting the box for the models only as they're pretty generic and can be used in many games, but the game is still 100 bloody pounds in Europe!
Are Mantic Kings of War miniatures expensive there? The Orcs Army and Undead Army were good prices in the US and paint up fine. Dunno about the specialized models, though.
Mantic are a British company and still within the borders of the EU - their prices are as per the manufacturer. I've a large number of their orc models and have ordered an undead batallion, but this doesn't mean I would mind having FF's ones - I like generic models and well executed stereotypes
I won't be getting into Runewars, but I will definitely be getting a box of a pair of Rune Golems for use in other games. I love those, and better yet they have the two individual poses.
AegisGrimm wrote: I won't be getting into Runewars, but I will definitely be getting a box of a pair of Rune Golems for use in other games. I love those, and better yet they have the two individual poses.
they had a demo table at the Con we had here in L.A. last month, with both painted and unpainted armies to look at...
i was quite impressed by the size of the Golems, and they are nice sculpts...
the leaders also look good, and come on a nice size "display" base, for those of us that like detailed bases...
i am sure that i will grab a few models just to paint, at some point down the road
The miniatures have a clean, stylized, almost cartoonish appearance, which is why I feel people keep comparing them to Rackham sculpts. They also remind me of MERCS/Myth or the more vanilla armored units from Warmachine. The market for this particular style of miniature seems pretty saturated to me, but I would definitely pick some up if the prices are good for unit or hero boxes.
AegisGrimm wrote: I won't be getting into Runewars, but I will definitely be getting a box of a pair of Rune Golems for use in other games. I love those, and better yet they have the two individual poses.
they had a demo table at the Con we had here in L.A. last month, with both painted and unpainted armies to look at...
i was quite impressed by the size of the Golems, and they are nice sculpts...
the leaders also look good, and come on a nice size "display" base, for those of us that like detailed bases...
i am sure that i will grab a few models just to paint, at some point down the road
cheers
jah
What Con was this? I didn't even know there were tabletop gaming conventions in LA.
@Bob: Strategicon, at the LAX Hilton...
Orccon was Presidents Day weekend, Gamex is Memorial Day weekend (May 26-29), and Gateway is Labor Day weekend (Sept. 1-4)...
i go on the Sunday, for the painting contest...
i'm sure FFG will be there again...
i believe their reps are called "Flight Crew", or something like that...
it was good to see them running a demo of the starter...
having the minis in hand was much better than judging from photos...
they definitely sold me on switching from "Nope, not interested.", to "I'll have to get a few of these."...
The rules seem very well conceived for this system. Power Limits, options, intuitive mechanics, and interesting effects. I love the casting of runes at the beginning of each round.
For those of you keen on the larger models, the expansion packs will have 2 figures with separate sculpts.
Over priced
£25 or £22.50 (discount) for 8 skeleton archers no feckin way and its cheap crap plastic watch the beasts of war unboxing and you see all the spear shafts all bend and such no thanxs
10penceman wrote: Over priced
£25 or £22.50 (discount) for 8 skeleton archers no feckin way and its cheap crap plastic watch the beasts of war unboxing and you see all the spear shafts all bend and such no thanxs
Bent spears are super common for this type of plastic and can be fixed in about a minute with a little hot water. Hold the spear under hot water from the faucet for about 30-60 seconds to soften it a tiny bit and then hold it straight while running it under cold water. Voila! Straight spear. This is Hobby 101 stuff. I've had to do the same for tons of board game minis.
As to the price... well... the GBP isn't worth what it used to be worth. ~Two years ago, 1 GBP was worth ~1.70 USD. As of this morning, it's closer to ~1.20 USD. A natural side effect of this drop in value is that anything made outside of the UK will become more 'expensive' as it takes more GBP to buy the same value worth of foreign stuff.
I think I paid £12 retail for 10 Reaper Bones skeletons at Dragonmeet in December. £22 for 8 does seem excessive -- it's more than twice the price for similar quality. This is particularly the case if you consider Mantic's skeletons, which if anything are better than the Bones ones or the RW ones and significantly cheaper at around £16 for 20, i.e. less than a third of the price of the RuneWars ones.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I think I paid £12 retail for 10 Reaper Bones skeletons at Dragonmeet in December. £22 for 8 does seem excessive -- it's more than twice the price for similar quality. This is particularly the case if you consider Mantic's skeletons, which if anything are better than the Bones ones or the RW ones and significantly cheaper at around £16 for 20, i.e. less than a third of the price of the RuneWars ones.
These will beat Bones in quality I'd wager.
You essentially getting rules as well. That's significant compared other companies.
Ive spent $40 just on trays for Kings of War as well.
The discounts are significant in the U.S. on FFG stuff. Very affordable IMO. I do feel pain for our UK and Aussie mates.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I think I paid £12 retail for 10 Reaper Bones skeletons at Dragonmeet in December. £22 for 8 does seem excessive -- it's more than twice the price for similar quality. This is particularly the case if you consider Mantic's skeletons, which if anything are better than the Bones ones or the RW ones and significantly cheaper at around £16 for 20, i.e. less than a third of the price of the RuneWars ones.
These will beat Bones in quality I'd wager.
You essentially getting rules as well. That's significant compared other companies.
Ive spent $40 just on trays for Kings of War as well.
The discounts are significant in the U.S. on FFG stuff. Very affordable IMO. I do feel pain for our UK and Aussie mates.
US discounts unless they are doing a firesale is only 15%. Thanks Asmodee. I think that hurt growth of Armada and I think it's going to hurt this.
That's something, but I'm still dubious that the card system won't turn out like X-Wing, where I have a paranoid theory they designed some ships to suck early on, so they could better peddle Aces and Epic Ships later.
But hey - that's a reason to put me off. Not for anyone else
The prices, at least in the US seem fine. $25 for an 8 man unit or 4 cavalry models is pretty cheap compared to most games. Of course, the quality doesn't seem on par with other manufacturers though I suspect it will be similar to the Imperial Assault stuff, which is probably worth about that I suppose (but FFG charges about 3x that...).
My primary issue is the concern that you'll miss upgrades without buying all the factions and just that I find the art direction a little uninspired. The only model in the line that really draws my eye is the Golem. It's also going to be really hard for the game to feel like its got legs until there's a couple more factions, which feels quite a long ways off.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I think I paid £12 retail for 10 Reaper Bones skeletons at Dragonmeet in December. £22 for 8 does seem excessive -- it's more than twice the price for similar quality. This is particularly the case if you consider Mantic's skeletons, which if anything are better than the Bones ones or the RW ones and significantly cheaper at around £16 for 20, i.e. less than a third of the price of the RuneWars ones.
These will beat Bones in quality I'd wager.
You essentially getting rules as well. That's significant compared other companies.
Ive spent $40 just on trays for Kings of War as well.
The discounts are significant in the U.S. on FFG stuff. Very affordable IMO. I do feel pain for our UK and Aussie mates.
US discounts unless they are doing a firesale is only 15%. Thanks Asmodee. I think that hurt growth of Armada and I think it's going to hurt this.
I COMPLETELY forgot about this change to 15% max.
Ouch... not fun. I support my local shops as best I can, but some people purchase exclusively online and that will definitely be a factor for them. It was easy to jump into Armada at 25-35% off . I don't see the games growing as much anymore.
Damn... again I completely missed this.
The Rune Golems don't seem badly priced at 35 bucks when you get two dreadnought-sized models in the box. Same with the big carrion-worm things. Plus the online discount means they will probably be 30 or less, even with the horrible Asmodee discount rules.
And yeah. Spear shaft rebending is basically something every single Forge World buyer has to do with anything that's a melee weapon, so big deal.
LunarSol wrote:$25 for an 8 man unit or 4 cavalry models is pretty cheap compared to most games.
What the...?
Either the pound hasn't fallen that much vs. the dollar, or you have a limited frame of reference for 'most games'.
AegisGrimm wrote:And yeah. Spear shaft rebending is basically something every single Forge World buyer has to do with anything that's a melee weapon, so big deal.
Forge World stuff doesn't tend to be potential beginner-level starter-set minis (possibly nudged towards the board game lot too) though.
AegisGrimm wrote: The Rune Golems don't seem badly priced at 35 bucks when you get two dreadnought-sized models in the box. Same with the big carrion-worm things. Plus the online discount means they will probably be 30 or less, even with the horrible Asmodee discount rules.
And yeah. Spear shaft rebending is basically something every single Forge World buyer has to do with anything that's a melee weapon, so big deal.
...I believe anyone who finds that a fair price is probably already already so invested in Warmahordes he or she won't have space for Runewars.
On the plus side, if this game takes off, Bones 4 will probably offer us better sculpts of similar designs for half the price at most.
AduroT wrote: Is this one doing the thing where you need to buy other factions' models to get the upgrade cards for your own?
They have stated that they won't do this. I think that FFG got the message that folks didn't like buying Empire units to upgrade your Rebel ships. That was a ridiculous model
AegisGrimm wrote: The Rune Golems don't seem badly priced at 35 bucks when you get two dreadnought-sized models in the box. Same with the big carrion-worm things. Plus the online discount means they will probably be 30 or less, even with the horrible Asmodee discount rules.
And yeah. Spear shaft rebending is basically something every single Forge World buyer has to do with anything that's a melee weapon, so big deal.
...I believe anyone who finds that a fair price is probably already already so invested in Warmahordes he or she won't have space for Runewars.
On the plus side, if this game takes off, Bones 4 will probably offer us better sculpts of similar designs for half the price at most.
Wait, so you're saying 15 bucks each for a pair of Dreadnought-sized models is too much? I mean, yeah the infantry is too damn expensive (especially four heroes at that price), but damn.
Yeah, $15 for a big fantasy golem thang is too much, if it's of approx Bones quality. This guy is currently in resin and metal but I don't expect the Bones version to be more than $6 or so.
Considering even overpriced infantry packs are about 50%-60% of current GW boxes I'm fine with it. If we're going to compare everything to Bones even Mantic is incredibly expensive. Besides, there's the game and support to consider. For most of those interested in runewars the game is a huge draw.
Besides, after the incredibly overwrought designs of GW these past years the simple, clean nature of these minis is actually refreshing.
I hate to see how much more expensive it is overseas but it's a comparably affordable game system for me.
dosiere wrote: Considering even overpriced infantry packs are about 50%-60% of current GW boxes I'm fine with it.
By "current", are you really comparing them with the likes of GS Cult Hybrids, which are £5 each RRP but are probably the best multipart plastics in the world?
Better to compare like with like:
10 GW skeletons, RRP £15.50, i.e. £1.55 each
8 RW skeletons, RRP £25, i.e. £3.12 each -- over twice the price!
Discounts are somewhat better for GW too (20% rather than 10%), so I'm being generous by not applying those...
And the GW ones, despite being old sculpts, are at least as good as the RW ones. There is no way that the RW ones are even approaching the same league as recent GW multipart plastics.
I like the idea of the game and I don't hate the sculpts -- but I don't see this taking off anywhere outside of the USA, and I think FFG will struggle to recruit players even there, even with the marginally cheaper pricing. They're pricing for the prepaint market but hoping to get existing unpainted miniatures wargaming fans interested, and sadly I find this unlikely. "Sadly" because I was looking forward to this being successful enough for 3rd-party components to be made... would have been nice to use my existing undead minis with it!
GW is a UK company, and they manufacture in the UK, so prices will be cheaper there.
I've been GW players use certain value arguments like the one I'm about to use: How much of those 10 GW skeletons are you going to need in a competitive WHFB army? Because I don't recall seeing many armies consisting of just 10 skeletons. You might need 4 of those WHFB boxes to fill the same kind of fighting strength you get in 2 boxes of RW.
Likewise, in the RW box you get extra cards and extra bits. I know how cheap those are to manufacture though.
Anyway, I'm planning to get the starter box. I've been wanting another fantasy game and undead army for that fantasy game for a while now. So, I'll give it a shot considering I like boardgame-like mechanics and components in miniature games.
Yeah. I had planned to get the starter box when the logic was "$100, ah, that'll be £80, or £64 after discounts."
£80 after discounts is still worthy of consideration, but on balance, I'm going to wait and see about those 3rd-party components. Part of my interest in this is that I love undead. I already own a fair few. I want to be able to use RW minis in other games and vice versa. Otherwise there's not much point in them being 28mm scale...
Comparisons to Bones are inherently flawed based on the incredibly inferior material Bones stuff is made out of. It makes PVC or even dare I say Finecast look really good in contrast. It damn well Better be cheaper than everything else.
Are people still comparing costs of Rune Wars with other figures? Although they look expensive, I kinda figured a lot of the costs were for extra cards, dials and tokens. Much like X-Wing, where half the contents aren't the figure(s).
I initially thought it looked a bit of fun, but then realised just how many cards etc I ended up with for X-Wing and decided one game like that will do for me. I'll stick with my old GW figures and the KoW rules for good fun quick games.
AegisGrimm wrote: The Rune Golems don't seem badly priced at 35 bucks when you get two dreadnought-sized models in the box. Same with the big carrion-worm things. Plus the online discount means they will probably be 30 or less, even with the horrible Asmodee discount rules.
And yeah. Spear shaft rebending is basically something every single Forge World buyer has to do with anything that's a melee weapon, so big deal.
...I believe anyone who finds that a fair price is probably already already so invested in Warmahordes he or she won't have space for Runewars.
On the plus side, if this game takes off, Bones 4 will probably offer us better sculpts of similar designs for half the price at most.
Wait, so you're saying 15 bucks each for a pair of Dreadnought-sized models is too much? I mean, yeah the infantry is too damn expensive (especially four heroes at that price), but damn.
One, I was mostly thinking about the infantry, yeah. Two, Bones minis of that size are eight to ten bucks, depending on the sculpt and number of pieces, although their prices seem to be going up recently...
But then, I remember paying $10 for Bones Cthulhu and a similar price for Kaladrax, so my perspective may be off.
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AduroT wrote: Comparisons to Bones are inherently flawed based on the incredibly inferior material Bones stuff is made out of. It makes PVC or even dare I say Finecast look really good in contrast. It damn well Better be cheaper than everything else.
For large models, Bones is a great medium. For smaller minis, we could always compare like to like and see what comes in a CMON game box for the same price...
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Gimgamgoo wrote: Are people still comparing costs of Rune Wars with other figures? Although they look expensive, I kinda figured a lot of the costs were for extra cards, dials and tokens. Much like X-Wing, where half the contents aren't the figure(s).
I initially thought it looked a bit of fun, but then realised just how many cards etc I ended up with for X-Wing and decided one game like that will do for me. I'll stick with my old GW figures and the KoW rules for good fun quick games.
I think you just answered your own unstated question about why people don't include the cardboard box ballast in their value calculations...
I'm happy to consider the fantastic game and accessory and rules content that each box comes with... and still find them significantly poorer value than most of what Games Workshop is selling. And when your brand new product looks worse and is significantly more expensive than the market leader, it almost doesn't matter how good a game it might be, sadly.
I do complain about GW pricing too, though, so maybe I'm not the target market!
So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.
agnosto wrote: So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.
Generals handbook and recent battletomes are both $25, so that would be a $50 total investment at most, and that's assuming your chosen faction even has a battletome. Otherwise it's just $25.
As for the "you don't need as many models" aspect, that might be true (I honestly don't know in this case) but usually games that have more expensive minis than GW (Infinity, Malifaux) also have as nice or (depending on your tastes) even nicer minis as well. Paying more for worse models isn't likely to draw many customers I don't think, even if you need less of them.
agnosto wrote: So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.
Generals handbook and recent battletomes are both $25, so that would be a $50 total investment at most, and that's assuming your chosen faction even has a battletome. Otherwise it's just $25.
As for the "you don't need as many models" aspect, that might be true (I honestly don't know in this case) but usually games that have more expensive minis than GW (Infinity, Malifaux) also have as nice or (depending on your tastes) even nicer minis as well. Paying more for worse models isn't likely to draw many customers I don't think, even if you need less of them.
Sure but $0 is better than $25 or $50 for AoS or $200ish in books for 40k, that's more models I'll buy. It still amazes me that GW hasn't figured that part out but ah well.
I get the model comments for you folk that actually care about what your game markers look like. Board game plastic is fine by me and smaller games are great because I'm more a gamer than a hobbyist. I know most people on here didn't want pre-paints but that would have sold me on the game immediately.
AduroT wrote: Comparisons to Bones are inherently flawed based on the incredibly inferior material Bones stuff is made out of. It makes PVC or even dare I say Finecast look really good in contrast. It damn well Better be cheaper than everything else.
Well, Bones is PVC, so... not sure where that leaves your opinion.
It is a decent comparison because these will be some form of PVC. And given the absolute gak show my Imperial Assault purchases have been, it's a definite concern.
PVC (Bones) is a great material for medium to large sized figures. And a good one for man sized and smaller if used properly. See the figures from CMoN from Blood Rage on. Excellent figures that suffer from few (none, really) of the problems of earlier PVC figures.
The down side to me for Runewars is the mediocre to poor designs of the sculpts. Feels very Budget World of Warcraft to me, which I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread.
I thought Bones were sold as a replacement for metal for the RPG gamers. That is, Bones let them sell for $10 a hill giant that would cost $30 in metal. For an army, a $30 larger figure might be acceptable, but, for a GM, this means he's spending $90+ for a single RPG encounter. Creatures that would be "rank and file" for a wargame (eg. skeletons) are sold in 3-per-pack blisters, which is typical for RPGs, not a box of sprues, which is more common for "rank and file" miniatures. The "broccoli bases" Reaper uses makes the figures easier to place down on a mat, but, I think, would make them difficult to push around, compared to army miniatures which have sturdier bases.
Runewars may be good for new players who don't play Star Wars and haven't sunk hundreds of dollars and *hundreds of hours painting* into their "lifestyle" miniatures wargame. But I've spent over three months painting a Mantic Orcs Army, and I'm not interested in doing this over again for Runewars.
dosiere wrote: Considering even overpriced infantry packs are about 50%-60% of current GW boxes I'm fine with it.
By "current", are you really comparing them with the likes of GS Cult Hybrids, which are £5 each RRP but are probably the best multipart plastics in the world?
Better to compare like with like:
10 GW skeletons, RRP £15.50, i.e. £1.55 each
8 RW skeletons, RRP £25, i.e. £3.12 each -- over twice the price!
Discounts are somewhat better for GW too (20% rather than 10%), so I'm being generous by not applying those...
And the GW ones, despite being old sculpts, are at least as good as the RW ones. There is no way that the RW ones are even approaching the same league as recent GW multipart plastics.
I like the idea of the game and I don't hate the sculpts -- but I don't see this taking off anywhere outside of the USA, and I think FFG will struggle to recruit players even there, even with the marginally cheaper pricing. They're pricing for the prepaint market but hoping to get existing unpainted miniatures wargaming fans interested, and sadly I find this unlikely. "Sadly" because I was looking forward to this being successful enough for 3rd-party components to be made... would have been nice to use my existing undead minis with it!
Cult hybrids are nice, but that's an opinion on best in the world...
The whole price thing is pointless. Its all how much you want to play with. Like most of these games, its a better value to buy 2 starters if you want bigger games. To that point, FFG said the starter box is about half of what a normal game is.
Discounts are moving to 15% max, so close to being the same as FFG.
Id also disagree on the sculpts. FFG look better, GW is that old cartoony messed up proportions. Stuff youd find in a B horror movie. ID say Mantic ones are even better then GWs
I do agree though as I don't even seeing this take off in the US. I was very excited for it after playing it at Gencon, but if I want a rank and file game for fantasy, I play 6mm Kings of war. Dirt cheap, easy to paint up and easy to do mass battles.
agnosto wrote: So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.
Thanks Agnosto, these points needed to be made. Even Age of Sigmar, which I love, is costly to play in the very competitive circuit, with special prayers and abilities in the expensive hardcover faction books. We play it scenario-casual for fun anyway, but Rune Wars is a tournament-ready package that seems reasonably costed to me.
agnosto wrote: So how many 8-man units of skeletons do you need for a game? There's the difference. If the rules are free/cheap (i.e. not $70 for the main book and $50 for each of the 12 required expansions in order to be somewhat competitive) it'll be cheaper than GW.
Thanks Agnosto, these points needed to be made. Even Age of Sigmar, which I love, is costly to play in the very competitive circuit, with special prayers and abilities in the expensive hardcover faction books. We play it scenario-casual for fun anyway, but Rune Wars is a tournament-ready package that seems reasonably costed to me.
The tomes are far cheaper now for AoS then just half a year ago. Picked up the Tzeentch one for $35 and that was hard back. The softback is going for $25 on the GW page. And that is not even needed, recent major tournament winner in the UK did it with a Grand Order army that didn't use any formations or sub-faction special rules. Just, skinks, Waywatchers, and Kurnoth Hunters.
Plus if you are complaining about costs in the competitive circuit, then RW will likely be just as much based off of the current churn of X-Wing. X-Wing defenders point out that you if aren't playing competitive, it's a cheap game. AoS is the same.
There is a lot of interest in my area for this game, but I'm not sure it's going to be sustainable. The KoW crowd is looking to jump to this if it's good. Most who play it say they only play KoW because it's a RnF game. A lot of them are also playing X-wing because it scratches their tactical itch. So they're hoping for a RnF game with X-wing tactics. Problem is they are talking about just mounting their existing figures to new bases and using them. They have little interest in buying whole new armies. I expect to see them buy one box and lots of photocopying of cards.
silent25 wrote: . The KoW crowd is looking to jump to this if it's good. Most who play it say they only play KoW because it's a RnF game. A lot of them are also playing X-wing because it scratches their tactical itch. So they're hoping for a RnF game with X-wing tactics. Problem is they are talking about just mounting their existing figures to new bases and using them. They have little interest in buying whole new armies. I expect to see them buy one box and lots of photocopying of cards.
That sounds extremely annoying. They want a game with higher strategy and tactics level (not hard to do with KoW) but are not planning on supporting the game with purchases.
And the armies may look like garbage.
Does your store plan on any organized play? That will nip the lego, bones and MLP proxies in the rump.
silent25 wrote: . The KoW crowd is looking to jump to this if it's good. Most who play it say they only play KoW because it's a RnF game. A lot of them are also playing X-wing because it scratches their tactical itch. So they're hoping for a RnF game with X-wing tactics. Problem is they are talking about just mounting their existing figures to new bases and using them. They have little interest in buying whole new armies. I expect to see them buy one box and lots of photocopying of cards.
That sounds extremely annoying. They want a game with higher strategy and tactics level (not hard to do with KoW) but are not planning on supporting the game with purchases.
And the armies may look like garbage.
Does your store plan on any organized play? That will nip the lego, bones and MLP proxies in the rump.
The group is pretty mercenary and goes where they will have space and buys where the biggest discount is. The local stores don't go out of their way to support them because of it. While they frown on legos and MLP, a couple of them have 100% bones armies. So that stalk is full grown already
silent25 wrote: And that is not even needed, recent major tournament winner in the UK did it with a Grand Order army that didn't use any formations or sub-faction special rules. Just, skinks, Waywatchers, and Kurnoth Hunters.
As a retired WHFB vet, I just threw up in my mouth ...
silent25 wrote: And that is not even needed, recent major tournament winner in the UK did it with a Grand Order army that didn't use any formations or sub-faction special rules. Just, skinks, Waywatchers, and Kurnoth Hunters.
As a retired WHFB vet, I just threw up in my mouth ...
As a non-retired AoS player I just rolled my eyes at this.
silent25 wrote: And that is not even needed, recent major tournament winner in the UK did it with a Grand Order army that didn't use any formations or sub-faction special rules. Just, skinks, Waywatchers, and Kurnoth Hunters.
As a retired WHFB vet, I just threw up in my mouth ...
As a not retired WHFB player, I just rolled my eyes at this
Let's drop the AoS trolling/hate circle. This is about RW.
I'll admit I am thinking about using GW undead on the RW bases because of appearance of the RW undead. I hope it's feasible to buy the cards and units without having to buy three to four upgrade boxes per unit. Was planning on laser cutting the bases and dial if need be.
But I agree looking at it that way, it's not sustainable in the long run doing this. The rules intrigue me, but the models and purchasing options don't.
silent25 wrote: . The KoW crowd is looking to jump to this if it's good. Most who play it say they only play KoW because it's a RnF game. A lot of them are also playing X-wing because it scratches their tactical itch. So they're hoping for a RnF game with X-wing tactics. Problem is they are talking about just mounting their existing figures to new bases and using them. They have little interest in buying whole new armies. I expect to see them buy one box and lots of photocopying of cards.
That sounds extremely annoying. They want a game with higher strategy and tactics level (not hard to do with KoW) but are not planning on supporting the game with purchases.
And the armies may look like garbage.
Does your store plan on any organized play? That will nip the lego, bones and MLP proxies in the rump.
If they just want the rules, that's fair enough. Buying the rules and using whatever miniatures you want was the norm before GW created the current Fantasy/Sci-fi ecosystem that we have here, and is still the norm for Historicals. I'm interested in potentially trying Runewars, and I don't dislike the models as many here seem to, but I have a sizable undead army for KoW that's already built and painted (photo from June last year, so there's more there now) and I'd fully intend to continue using it, so if I had to photocopy some cards to do it, c'est la vie. There are a few bones models in there, but sorry. No Lego or MLP. It's mostly Citadel, with Mantic, Reaper, Brigade, RPE, because, you know, I'm such a cheap bastard.
Azazelx wrote: If they just want the rules, that's fair enough. Buying the rules and using whatever miniatures you want was the norm before GW created the current Fantasy/Sci-fi ecosystem that we have here, and is still the norm for Historicals. I'm interested in potentially trying Runewars, and I don't dislike the models as many here seem to, but I have a sizable undead army for KoW that's already built and painted (photo from June last year, so there's more there now) and I'd fully intend to continue using it, so if I had to photocopy some cards to do it, c'est la vie. There are a few bones models in there, but sorry. No Lego or MLP. It's mostly Citadel, with Mantic, Reaper, Brigade, RPE, because, you know, I'm such a cheap bastard.
Some miniature wargames, such as Kings of War, have free downloads, because free downloads lead to actual sales, of both dead tree rulebooks, and plastic armies. Some boardgame companies, particularly those in a KS (ObPlug: AEG's Thunderstone Quest), provide free PnP. Free electronic content -- even books -- has been shown to lead to actual sales. So, sure, grognards with tight wallets and no time to paint more armies may be using printed cards, but that will lead to more sales by new players, or those who can afford and want to buy retail-quality components. I don't like the "cards with miniatures" retail model, either, so haven't bought boardgames which use them (unless they were at a deep discount!).
Ian Sturrock wrote: Yeah, $15 for a big fantasy golem thang is too much, if it's of approx Bones quality. This guy is currently in resin and metal but I don't expect the Bones version to be more than $6 or so.
Using Bones prices for other figures probably isn't very fair as Bryan, one of the head Reaper people, stated on their forums recently that the KSers paid for all the molds so they don't include the cost of tooling in their prices. If they did, he said, then Bones would be comparable in price with other plastic figures.
Vertrucio wrote: GW is a UK company, and they manufacture in the UK, so prices will be cheaper there.
I've been GW players use certain value arguments like the one I'm about to use: How much of those 10 GW skeletons are you going to need in a competitive WHFB army? Because I don't recall seeing many armies consisting of just 10 skeletons. You might need 4 of those WHFB boxes to fill the same kind of fighting strength you get in 2 boxes of RW.
Likewise, in the RW box you get extra cards and extra bits. I know how cheap those are to manufacture though.
Anyway, I'm planning to get the starter box. I've been wanting another fantasy game and undead army for that fantasy game for a while now. So, I'll give it a shot considering I like boardgame-like mechanics and components in miniature games.
Sounds like the best idea is to get together as a group, buy one of the starter set, everybody photocopies the cards and spends the saved money on nice models that are cheaper.
Using Bones prices for other figures probably isn't very fair as Bryan, one of the head Reaper people, stated on their forums recently that the KSers paid for all the molds so they don't include the cost of tooling in their prices. If they did, he said, then Bones would be comparable in price with other plastic figures.
Ah, it's completely fair for me to make that comparison, as I backed Bones II and III so have earned my cheap Bones minis.
Although in the UK, both Frostgrave plastic Cultists (80p each) and Mantic plastic skeletons (60p each) work out much cheaper than Bones skeletons (about £1.95 each). If you want to build up your Army of Evil. Which I do.
Where's my discount, Bryan?!?
Anyway, the wider point is that Runewars is pricing itself out of the market for what looks like a good game and some OK (humans) to good (undead) minis, at least outside the USA. Assuming typical discounts, the starter set for Rune Wars is £80, against £60 for the Age of Sigmar starter and £40 for the Mantic starter. All of these contain miniatures as well as everything else you need to play, so the "but you get rules content too" argument is irrelevant. The Mantic starter has *twice as many* miniatures too; the GW is similar to the FFG one in terms of minis content.
(There's an element of personal taste to "quality" of course -- I'm aiming to be objective -- personally I prefer the look of both Mantic's and FFG's undead to most of the minis in the GW starter, but I can't deny the quality of the latter.)
Now the rules could push FFG's offering up. Let's be generous and assume that their rules are amazing and get a 9/10, as compared to say 5 for Mantic and 7 for AoS. They still end up scoring the worst out of the bunch! And in general, for miniatures wargamers, although we complain about the rules all the time, the rules are the least important factor in deciding whether to get into a new game. Probably the most important is the chance of getting a game in -- something that Mantic and GW still do better on, right now. Even if the rules for Runewars are *so good* that they render all other fantasy wargaming obsolete -- certainly possible -- they are going to struggle to prove that. Who are they selling to? The boardgames market that fancies minis games but doesn't want to paint... has X-Wing. The boardgames market that fancies minis games and is contemplating learning to paint, may well jump on this -- in fact that is probably FFG's best hope for a market for this -- but I suspect that is quite a small market, too small to drive the success of a new fantasy minis wargame. The established miniatures wargamer *has already got* a bunch of built and painted generic fantasy human army dudes and skeletons. We are tentatively interested in the new game, but probably not if it involves painting a bunch of new, different generic fantasy human army dudes and skeletons that can be used only for this game, and if we can't use our existing armies here.
Man, if you're the new kid on the block, you better be REALLY good! And at the very least your starter set has to look at least as good value as your rivals.
fightcitymayor on BGG posted this review of the game:
I've seen the secret selection of your action (the first dial) and actions followed in an initiative order in the Eurogame Havana, but it sounds like a mechanic not seen in most miniature wargames?
You can also modify your secret selection (the second dial), such as selecting a different movement template.
tpryan01 wrote: you give Mantic a "5" for rules and AoS a "7" ? I would flip those...KoW is a very clean and tight set of rules.
Well, I did say "say a 5" -- recognising that personal taste is a big factor here. I like and play KoW but I do agree with the criticism that it's a bit flavourless.
ced1106 wrote: fightcitymayor on BGG posted this review of the game:
I've seen the secret selection of your action (the first dial) and actions followed in an initiative order in the Eurogame Havana, but it sounds like a mechanic not seen in most miniature wargames?
You can also modify your secret selection (the second dial), such as selecting a different movement template.
Yikes, that is not much miniature content for the price point. I don't like the aesthetics of the miniatures either, so I am a solid nope on this one despite being very intrigued by the hidden orders part of game play.
I have have to admit I was skeptical of this at first. I came to adepticon though and got a demo of the game from FF and it was a lot of fun. They dished out a lot of support for the game and everyone who got swag bags got a copy. Really looking forward to playing this game with my son. The aesthetics are a little on the cartoony side but with a good paint job they look amazing. Especially the undead.
I like the aesthetics of the undead, other than the worm which seems a bit small and lacklustre compared to Reaper's Mashaaf:
The humans are too cartoony/WoW-ish for my personal tastes. Glad to hear the game itself is good. I think if they release the bases separately, I will buy a starter, at least, but I'm still iffy about the expansion cost if they don't release the bases separately.
I initially thought it looked a bit of fun, but then realised just how many cards etc I ended up with for X-Wing and decided one game like that will do for me. I'll stick with my old GW figures and the KoW rules for good fun quick games.
Yep same here. As much as I love X-Wing as a game it's just too damn filled with clutter such as various dials, cards and tokens and templates which I don't think add all that much to the experience other than to detract from the visual aspect of the game. This seems to be the case with all FFG games in general and as a result I've little interest in Rune Wars. I think I now prefer my games to be 'cleaner'.
Gallahad wrote:Yikes, that is not much miniature content for the price point. I don't like the aesthetics of the miniatures either, so I am a solid nope on this one despite being very intrigued by the hidden orders part of game play.
I am the same. Money is limited and with 40K coming out with a new edition, or Age of Sigmar, I will have my money go there since there is nothing here saying "BUY ME" over the others. Age of Sigmar is getting cartoony now, and don't want another system that is cartoony as well. Guess it will really end up is my player base will get into it or not. Nobody is playing X wing here so I take this will be a no. People here already invested in 40K/AoS they don't want to try a new system sadly for me.
I'm on the fence about the tokens, dials, etc... in regards to them cluttering things.
In some ways they simplify things and reduce bookkeeping. Things like ongoing effects, wound markers, etc... are things that nearly every game has anyway, whether they actually include them or not. How many times do you see some sort of dice, scrap of paper, or token in a game of AoS or 40k tracking wounds, turns, objectives, or an ongoing effect? I actually appreciate that FFG includes all necessary gaming aids with their games; it gives me an easy, precessional looking way to represent things.
The way they use cards for everything also means I rarely have to consult a rule book during a game - all the rules are right in front of me. Again, though, more clutter.
This game in particular has those huge dual dials. I think what I am probably going to do is mark my units with small numerical tokens and keep the dials on the side board alongside their unit cards.
Hey guys - my first post here on Dakka, so be kind!
Have been following Runewars TMG with quiet optimism since it's announcement back at GenCon 2016. In scouring the internet for more discussion I happened across this thread, which I've just read all 13 pages of and signed up to post in.
I can completely understand the amount of trepidation, due to:
1) OK, but not great miniatures
2) Under-developed and potentially generic IP/Universe
3) Most users in here being 'veteran' miniature wargamers - and particularly dominated by GW, WHFB, 40K, Mantic, PP etc etc
But whilst that's all valid, I think a lot of people are missing the point here with Runewars TMG.
I think FFG aims to market the game to:
- Ex WHFB/AoS players
- Existing X-Wing/Armada/Imperial Assault players
- Gamers who know first hand FFG's games and trust their products - but haven't yet gotten into minis games
- Gamers who haven't played any sort of minis games
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second. Ultimately, just like FFG's other minis games. Where Runewars will be successful is in appealing to the parts of the market as listed above, and in providing an experience 'similar' to WHFB or AoS, but backed up by a robust and accessible Organised Play system, with a competitive list-building elements, supported by an excellent, slick rule-set.
Whereas GW games are first and foremost about the amazing minis, and the hobby aspects, and occasionally actually playing the games themselves - this will be about collecting an army, building lists and playing frequently in weekly/monthly tournaments.
And yes, the expansions are a bit expensive for the lower than GW quality minis, but I still think this game is very competitively priced for what you can get. By my count you can get x2 Cores, and x1 of every announced expansion for £400-450 - this will give you 140 minis (around £2.80 per mini), 2 full armies with around 250 points of minis to choose from (standard games are played with 200 point lists) plus a ton of upgrade cards which probably push it to around 300+ points per side.
So 2 full tournament level armies, with around 150% of what you need for a list, for around £400~
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
But on the other hand its the great game system that packs out games store every week, huge regionals every month and 8 massive 400+ player tournaments every year.
All I'm saying is that for many GW players - 80-90% of the focus is on the making and painting; on the hobby. Actual playing of the games is an ideal that comes to fruition a few times a year. This game isn't marketed at them. This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.
jonboyjon1990 wrote: This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.
You pay for all the cards and dials!
And you'll frequently will have to get new stuff, just to be able to compete. Do you know anybody who bought some ships from waves 1-3 in X-Wing and was able to compete for any amount of time?
Not that different from getting new rulesbooks every so often ...
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
But on the other hand its the great game system that packs out games store every week, huge regionals every month and 8 massive 400+ player tournaments every year.
All I'm saying is that for many GW players - 80-90% of the focus is on the making and painting; on the hobby. Actual playing of the games is an ideal that comes to fruition a few times a year. This game isn't marketed at them. This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.
jonboyjon1990 wrote: This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.
You pay for all the cards and dials!
And you'll frequently will have to get new stuff, just to be able to compete. Do you know anybody who bought some ships from waves 1-3 in X-Wing and was able to compete for any amount of time?
Not that different from getting new rulesbooks every so often ...
I thought GW Rules were around £50 for the core rules and around £35 for a single army's rules? More than a core of Runewars
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
But on the other hand its the great game system that packs out games store every week, huge regionals every month and 8 massive 400+ player tournaments every year.
All I'm saying is that for many GW players - 80-90% of the focus is on the making and painting; on the hobby. Actual playing of the games is an ideal that comes to fruition a few times a year. This game isn't marketed at them. This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.
So how much does FFG pay you to spew this?
Hey man, I'm just adding to the discussion - everyone seemed to be having a nice discussion about this game, I was just coming in to the forum to add to that. My view of the game is probably a bit more FFG-friendly, but I'm just trying to add a different viewpoint.
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
This is very true. Conversations in the game store i own start with "Oooh, those are the Star Wars models i heard about, and i heard there is a game you can play with them".
Players get into xwing because of the models, the background, the love of star wars. They play the game because it's Star Wars and they own the models.
I don't see Rune Wars getting this huge boost of players. RW will live or die based on how people like the models and rules. Judged without the benefit of a huge franchise.
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
This is very true. Conversations in the game store i own start with "Oooh, those are the Star Wars models i heard about, and i heard there is a game you can play with them".
Players get into xwing because of the models, the background, the love of star wars. They play the game because it's Star Wars and they own the models.
I don't see Rune Wars getting this huge boost of players. RW will live or die based on how people like the models and rules. Judged without the benefit of a huge franchise.
Well you kind of agree with my point then. X-wing draws people in with the minis and IP, and keeps them with the fantastic rules.
RW will draw people in with FFG's well built reputation for successful games, successful minis games, great OP, some people's needs for a 'better' rank and file game, and keep them with the fantastic rules.
I'm not sure there is enough of a draw yet to get people to spend £500 on minis, speaking as someone who likes the minis enough that I'd happily own at least the undead half of the set. I hope the game turns out to be good, and I hope that it gets enough of a critical mass to start running as many tournaments as X-Wing... but I'm kinda doubtful, and unlikely to even buy the starter set till I see some reviews and see whether the game really takes off in the UK.
FFG has a reputation all right, but not necessarily a good one. Ask anyone looking for the new Arkham Horror game or their Destiny dice game. They have serious supply problems. If that happens with Runewars, they are done. Already the release date has been pushed back from end of March to mid April.
Smellingsalts wrote: FFG has a reputation all right, but not necessarily a good one. Ask anyone looking for the new Arkham Horror game or their Destiny dice game. They have serious supply problems. If that happens with Runewars, they are done. Already the release date has been pushed back from end of March to mid April.
I've noticed this about FFG. I absolutely love Mansions of Madness, but if you want the newest expansion, you damn well better pre-order it!
Another danger with FFG is their editors. Some are pretty solid, but some have had some really glaring errors, like when two adjacent paragraphs contradict each other, or all sorts of scenario problems. I've never looked to see if there's a pattern to good or bad editors (maybe all the bad jobs are done by newbs or something), but some are quite terribly edited.
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
Yes although the playing communities and tournaments only prospered because the rules are well constructed and feel so.. Clean (think thats the best way to put it?)
Combined with the lovely miniatures and Star Wars setting its no surprise the game has prospered.
Rune Wars will definitely have its work cut out, but if they make a good ruleset and back it up with a stream of release I think they have a change of picking up newbies and also those Still left floating from the whfb purge.
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
Yes although the playing communities and tournaments only prospered because the rules are well constructed and feel so.. Clean (think thats the best way to put it?)
Combined with the lovely miniatures and Star Wars setting its no surprise the game has prospered.
Rune Wars will definitely have its work cut out, but if they make a good ruleset and back it up with a stream of release I think they have a change of picking up newbies and also those Still left floating from the whfb purge.
Yup, Kirby went and hunted down WHFB players, killing them in the thousands. It's about as dramatic as yours.
2 years later there's almost nothing left, which is what irks me. Virtually everyone has either rebounded to AoS, moved on to 9th age/KoW or is playing the editions they love. Runewars has nothing to offer to that crowd by now.
Why should they play RW when they're spending their gaming budget on Star Wars games?
> - Gamers who know first hand FFG's games and trust their products - but haven't yet gotten into minis games
Why should they play miniatures games when they can play FFG boardgames? FFG boardgames are expensive and, like Star Wars, by the time you buy them you don't have much money left for a miniatures wargame.
> - Gamers who haven't played any sort of minis games
Why should they play a miniatures game when there are plenty of less expensive boardgames out there that require no assembly?
> I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
That's a big mistake, as anyone who's seen a CMON KS will tell you.
> Whereas GW games are first and foremost about the amazing minis, and the hobby aspects, and occasionally actually playing the games themselves - this will be about collecting an army, building lists and playing frequently in weekly/monthly tournaments.
Why would boardgamers, who have never done this, want to do it? Why would miniature gamers, who already are invested in their games, do this for another system?
> And yes, the expansions are a bit expensive for the lower than GW quality minis, but I still think this game is very competitively priced for what you can get.
But, if you're already playing a miniatures game, why not buy more miniatures for it?
I guess once they start playing and show that they will *continue* playing, that will be a good sign. I'm not saying you should not play RW, but I think Dakkanauts should wait to see if an audience builds up before deciding to buy this game.
As a newbie wargamer I think ced hits the key points. Unless the game is very unique (e.g. Star Wars) it really needs to emphasize the community aspects over rules or miniatures. I assume that the tabletop community is near-zero-sum: to gain a player, often another game will have to lose them. For a new game to compete it needs to demonstrate a healthy strategy for growing/maintaining its community. Rules and minis don't matter if no one is taking that initial "leap" to play with them.
I enjoyed playing it at Gencon 2016 and if they had it on sale then and there id have bought 2 cores in a second.
After getting a year to wait and review and see how they will price it, I will pass. I just don't see this going far.
I like the world a lot, as I love Battlelore 2nd edition.
I play many minis games, far to many really from GW, Warlords, FFG, Hawk, etc, etc and Runewars price point for the quality and quantity isn't worth it.
As someone else said, people play X Wing for the minis. It has a huge name, prepainted, and easy to play. This is a far smaller name in popularity, unpainted, needs assembled and far more complex as far as tactics go (while this can be good, its not easy for people to jump into) It would be far easier to play Kings of War rules and get whatever minis you want then go into this. I really recommend KoW at 6mm scale, as its cheap as dirt, lets you play mass battles quickly and is easy to learn.(Plus most 6mm is single piece glue on base and a cake walk to paint)
2 years later there's almost nothing left, which is what irks me. Virtually everyone has either rebounded to AoS, moved on to 9th age/KoW or is playing the editions they love. Runewars has nothing to offer to that crowd by now.
And much like some people stick by GW, buying up anything and everything they make, I'm sure many FFG customers will be the same with FFG.
Personally I hope it succeeds the way FFG hope it will.
> I'm sure many FFG customers will be the same with FFG.
i know this is true for boardgamers, but will it be true for the miniatures game? The difference between the boardgames and the miniatures game is that the miniatures game is a "lifestyle" game, meaning that you will sink hundreds of not just dollars, but hours for assembly and painting. I've also read threads on Dakka about popularity of X-Wing vs. Armada, namely that X-Wing is more successful than Armada. This suggests that FFG miniatures players don't have the hundreds of dollars necessary to support a second "lifestyle" game. In contrast, with the non-LCG FFG games, after "only" spending $150+ on a base game and expansion, you're pretty much done with the boardgame and can find another one to pick up.
We'll see! Thankfully, RW isn't being KS'ed, so gamers can let the early adapters empty their wallets first and create the community!
Empty wallets is a relative thing though - considering the thousands (and thousands) that some people pay for picking up every new GW release, I can kind of understand FFG having a stab at it.
If they make a good game.. And some people buy it, and we get some worthwhile community out of it, where is the harm in that?
My brother has this game preordered, hopefully we'll get to try it out soon.
I'm personally a bit shocked they're opening the gates with only two armies. Considering what is already established that they're trying to break into, I think that is really going to hurt them grow to a dominant position. I'm also more than a bit concerned about the Hero characters - that sort of thing drove me away from WHFB, and also spilled over into 40K as "no named characters, no exceptions".
FFG overall, however, has been pretty solid. Their Descent game, with its iffy miniatures, sold very well. X-Wing (& Armada in some ways) has really been one of their defining, shining games - you ought to try and compare it to the utter crap Starship Battles Hasbro shuffled out a few years prior.
I think Runewars will do well, but it will have an uphill battle. We should see improving miniature designs as the line matures, and a solid rules base should help keep up interest.
At the very least, I think it will make the other ruleset stand up and take notice - and perhaps up their game(s).
As others have mentioned, I just don't know who their market for this is.
For a game of massed battles, the boxed is laughably sparse - and their pricing seems completely hatstand when it comes to increasing your army.
For rank and file combat, there's people's existing Warhammer Armies, Kings of War, and Historicals.
For 'hidden orders' - there's X-Wing, and the Dungeon's and Dragons version of Attack Wing.
There's also the concern that despite what they say, we'll find ourselves doing an X-Wing, and having to buy models we don't want in our army in order to make a unit we do want, and have already bought, much better.
FFG's ongoing supply chain woes are another big concern. I dunno about you, but a good slice of my wargames spending is done on impulse. Sure, I might nip down to Darksphere to pick up Shadow War (a planned purchase), but there's always a good chance I might pick up another set or two whilst I'm there. Can't do that if it's not in stock, no?
Maybe it will succeed. I can't comment on the gameplay itself as I've not had a demo - but man, FFG really seem to have picked the steepest possible incline.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As others have mentioned, I just don't know who their market for this is.
For a game of massed battles, the boxed is laughably sparse - and their pricing seems completely hatstand when it comes to increasing your army.
For rank and file combat, there's people's existing Warhammer Armies, Kings of War, and Historicals.
For 'hidden orders' - there's X-Wing, and the Dungeon's and Dragons version of Attack Wing.
There's also the concern that despite what they say, we'll find ourselves doing an X-Wing, and having to buy models we don't want in our army in order to make a unit we do want, and have already bought, much better.
FFG's ongoing supply chain woes are another big concern. I dunno about you, but a good slice of my wargames spending is done on impulse. Sure, I might nip down to Darksphere to pick up Shadow War (a planned purchase), but there's always a good chance I might pick up another set or two whilst I'm there. Can't do that if it's not in stock, no?
Maybe it will succeed. I can't comment on the gameplay itself as I've not had a demo - but man, FFG really seem to have picked the steepest possible incline.
Yea im not sure on their market. Only so many dollars to go around. When I think board, card, and now dice game I think FFG. They are the leaders on those fields( well second in card as MTG is still the top)
Pretty sure wizards killed off DND attack wing. It did pretty horribly.
If someone likes it, go for it, but I don't see this doing very well. At least well enough to stay around more then a year or so. Two factions at the start and the supply chain for FFG has been the worst the past few games they have done.
They are aiming for casual players with light tactics and a fantasy setting of their own, but the price point isn't there.
I think FFG is still operating very much on a traditional distributor filling shelf space model. The entire point of this game might be so a typical local store doesn't have to look anywhere else if they want a small shelf of miniature gaming products. It's possible that it can sell at barely break even (or even loss) levels and it'll still accomplish FFG's goals of having card and board game shops go with their stuff over other company's products if they decide to try selling miniatures.
The barrier to entry for a retailer will be ridiculously low compared to what GW tries to get new accounts to stock. If you're primarily a magic and pokemon card store that does a reasonable amount of board game and X-Wing sales and you're thinking "Why not fill this extra shelf with something new?", Runewars is just a few line items you add to your next order from a distributor. Existing sales channels, existing relationships. From a company the stores are already familiar with. And FFG's organized play works well for stores.
My initial thoughts were that this was piling into a dying market (ranked up fantasy games) but then I starting thinking this might not actually be about getting massive amount of the product in player's hands, but about filling shelf space with FFG products for larger strategic reasons related to how the typical US based store orders and stocks product. It might only need to sell in small amounts to work. This product line might be a success for FFG if all it does is give stores the ability to say "I already have miniature lines in stock that I'm happy with" when GW's trade sales team calls looking for opportunities.
Very good point! With GW entering the boardgames market, that's a definite strategy. *Now* I recall that a video reviewer commenting on Asmodee's acquisition of companies might be a strategy to create a "one stop shop" of game lines that a Big Box -- and, by extension, smaller retailer -- could order from.
I likely imagine that RW is releasing with two factions because the initial wave is intended to perform like an MVP. This way if it does fail losses are considerably less. The question to ask though is what UVPs does RW bring to the table and are those UVPs good enough to make it a success.
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
But on the other hand its the great game system that packs out games store every week, huge regionals every month and 8 massive 400+ player tournaments every year.
All I'm saying is that for many GW players - 80-90% of the focus is on the making and painting; on the hobby. Actual playing of the games is an ideal that comes to fruition a few times a year. This game isn't marketed at them. This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.
So how much does FFG pay you to spew this?
THis is pretty funny. considerring that you're unable to let pass even the slightest criticism directed toward AOS, and have genreally acted like a total GW cheerleader
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As others have mentioned, I just don't know who their market for this is.
For a game of massed battles, the boxed is laughably sparse - and their pricing seems completely hatstand when it comes to increasing your army.
For rank and file combat, there's people's existing Warhammer Armies, Kings of War, and Historicals.
For 'hidden orders' - there's X-Wing, and the Dungeon's and Dragons version of Attack Wing.
There's also the concern that despite what they say, we'll find ourselves doing an X-Wing, and having to buy models we don't want in our army in order to make a unit we do want, and have already bought, much better.
FFG's ongoing supply chain woes are another big concern. I dunno about you, but a good slice of my wargames spending is done on impulse. Sure, I might nip down to Darksphere to pick up Shadow War (a planned purchase), but there's always a good chance I might pick up another set or two whilst I'm there. Can't do that if it's not in stock, no?
Maybe it will succeed. I can't comment on the gameplay itself as I've not had a demo - but man, FFG really seem to have picked the steepest possible incline.
yep this smell like a fiasco. Don't think it will srvive more than one or two years
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
Wow, I've passively followed this game for years, and know some friends who have it. I've tried it and it's OK. But this is the very first time I've heard someone say folks bought the game "just for the models"
What do you do with the models? Surely this is a tiny minority of folks who maybe just want an X Wing on their desk, or handing from their ceiling? That folks would buy the models but never try the game honestly never occurred to me!
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
But on the other hand its the great game system that packs out games store every week, huge regionals every month and 8 massive 400+ player tournaments every year.
All I'm saying is that for many GW players - 80-90% of the focus is on the making and painting; on the hobby. Actual playing of the games is an ideal that comes to fruition a few times a year. This game isn't marketed at them. This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.
So how much does FFG pay you to spew this?
THis is pretty funny. considerring that you're unable to let pass even the slightest criticism directed toward AOS, and have genreally acted like a total GW cheerleader
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As others have mentioned, I just don't know who their market for this is.
For a game of massed battles, the boxed is laughably sparse - and their pricing seems completely hatstand when it comes to increasing your army.
For rank and file combat, there's people's existing Warhammer Armies, Kings of War, and Historicals.
For 'hidden orders' - there's X-Wing, and the Dungeon's and Dragons version of Attack Wing.
There's also the concern that despite what they say, we'll find ourselves doing an X-Wing, and having to buy models we don't want in our army in order to make a unit we do want, and have already bought, much better.
FFG's ongoing supply chain woes are another big concern. I dunno about you, but a good slice of my wargames spending is done on impulse. Sure, I might nip down to Darksphere to pick up Shadow War (a planned purchase), but there's always a good chance I might pick up another set or two whilst I'm there. Can't do that if it's not in stock, no?
Maybe it will succeed. I can't comment on the gameplay itself as I've not had a demo - but man, FFG really seem to have picked the steepest possible incline.
yep this smell like a fiasco. Don't think it will srvive more than one or two years
Hey at least my entire activtiy in this site hasn't been: OH MY GAWD THIS WILL BE AWESOME! (Which I've done a few times, though mainly to see melt-downs on other people)
Call me cheerleader, but I do other things aside that (also, you're just jelly of my trademarked pompons) and it's mainly because I'm dead sick of people taking pot-shots at it. "Yes, you don't like it! Now please move along because it's been 2 years already and no need to keep on harping about how you don't like it. We heard it the 1st 10.000 times."
ced1106 wrote: Very good point! With GW entering the boardgames market, that's a definite strategy. *Now* I recall that a video reviewer commenting on Asmodee's acquisition of companies might be a strategy to create a "one stop shop" of game lines that a Big Box -- and, by extension, smaller retailer -- could order from.
It's how GW spread to North America in the 90s. They had a good variety of products and became *the* single source for miniatures. Distributors like it because any time you consolidate orders, you save on shipping and administration costs. Stores like it because they can use their existing distributor and ordering is easy. And consolidating orders into a smaller number of distributors can give you some wiggle room on discounts and concessions of terms. You'll get far better support from your distributor if you're a six digit account rather than having four or so 5 digit accounts at different sources.
Wow, I've passively followed this game for years, and know some friends who have it. I've tried it and it's OK. But this is the very first time I've heard someone say folks bought the game "just for the models"
What do you do with the models? Surely this is a tiny minority of folks who maybe just want an X Wing on their desk, or handing from their ceiling? That folks would buy the models but never try the game honestly never occurred to me!
Look at all the people who bought the Star Wars micro machines - there was no game attached to that. For some people, these are higher-quality versions of that (like the Black Series) - but then for some its "hey, what's this game it happens to come with?"
As for the cost of Runewars, my brother it getting it with store credit from playing MtG. (In fact, if you happen to know of Bant Amulet, you'll know who he is).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, something I've just been thinking about... (The Rune Golem triggered a memory)
FFG also produces a tabletop board/battle game called Battlelore. The miniatures for Runewars appear to be better-quality versions of those models (I wonder if they might be usable for Battlelore, as I own a copy of 2E Battlelore).
I wonder if FFG is attempting expand on the popularity of its Battlelore game, and possibly fill what it perceives was a hole made by GW when they axed the massed battle games of WHFB for the skimish-friendly version of AoS. I've always wondered it was a thumb back at GW for pulling the 40K/Old World licenses.
Hmm... From the BGG Battlelore forum, I get the impression that FFG pretty much dumped it. The RW mechanics are different from Battlelore. Would be good for FFG to release these miniatures for BL as well, but I haven't seen any promo materials mentioning BL: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25417/battlelore
Now paint and play those RW miniatures and tell us what you think of the game!!!
With regard to target market, maybe they're also going for the competitive players? Most of the xwing guys i know play it for the tourneys, as did i for a couple of years. I appreciated the tight rules, frequent faqs, quick play compared to 40k, and tourney swag that was nice to have but didn't unbalance the game (wizkids I'm looking at you).
Yeah i bought multiple of every ship released, but 1. Waves are announced months in advance so i could budget properly. 2. Youre able to build any squad for any faction you like, and 3. It keeps the meta fresh. I know that last point may be controversial, many people i know didnt like that previous ships could be made obsolete, and thats fine. In that respect xwing is more like a ccg then a ttmg, i liked how a new wave would shake up the meta, i loved list building around the new stuff trying out new combos and strats. And since all factions get updated, there's something for everyone. Worst case, i get a cool looking ship and no painters remorse.
Probably won't get into RW for the same reason i got out of xwing, lack of time. But i really enjoyed my time with xwing and now and then I bust out my ships for some casual games.
Wow, I've passively followed this game for years, and know some friends who have it. I've tried it and it's OK. But this is the very first time I've heard someone say folks bought the game "just for the models"
What do you do with the models? Surely this is a tiny minority of folks who maybe just want an X Wing on their desk, or handing from their ceiling? That folks would buy the models but never try the game honestly never occurred to me!
I work in a computer games studio, so the guys I work with are all digital core gamers, not so much analogue gamers. When X-Wing hit, almost a dozen of them bought ships, two have bought basically everything that FFG ever made for the game, even all the epic ships, that normal gamers only get (if at all) for the cards.
One of those two even has a lot of Armada stuff sitting on his desk.
It's mainly all for the shelf, to look pretty, yeah. Sometimes they game with the stuff, but that's secondary.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As others have mentioned, I just don't know who their market for this is.
For a game of massed battles, the boxed is laughably sparse - and their pricing seems completely hatstand when it comes to increasing your army.
For rank and file combat, there's people's existing Warhammer Armies, Kings of War, and Historicals.
For 'hidden orders' - there's X-Wing, and the Dungeon's and Dragons version of Attack Wing.
There's also the concern that despite what they say, we'll find ourselves doing an X-Wing, and having to buy models we don't want in our army in order to make a unit we do want, and have already bought, much better.
FFG's ongoing supply chain woes are another big concern. I dunno about you, but a good slice of my wargames spending is done on impulse. Sure, I might nip down to Darksphere to pick up Shadow War (a planned purchase), but there's always a good chance I might pick up another set or two whilst I'm there. Can't do that if it's not in stock, no?
Maybe it will succeed. I can't comment on the gameplay itself as I've not had a demo - but man, FFG really seem to have picked the steepest possible incline.
Ok, I have to jump in here...
Laughably sparse content? It's 100 of 200 point standard build for $50 a player. Not sure what you are expecting here, but compare to other rank and file systems both 15mm and 28mm and this comment just doesn't make sense.
there is an definitive gap for rank and file army systems at the moment that Rune Wars may fill. I don't see a historical company with FFG's tournament support, player base, etc. and KoW is a very simple rule system and many move on from quickly.
If you haven't played the game, why assume that x-wing and other hidden orders even compare to the dial aspect of Rune Wars? They don't.
Read up on the release format -- faction specific and neutral cards are in a human army expansion. The equivalent expansion for the undead will have their faction cards and the same neutrals. They listened to their customer base on this. Give FFG some credit.
I understand their supply chain woes can be very frustrating, but by this logic we may as well not attempt to play FFG's games due to the concern.
I'm in here to encourage those interested in the Rune Wars to take some of these assumptions with a huge grain of salt and attempt to give it a try.
I played two demos and knew some of the rules before sitting down. It captures the rank and file essence of spirit incredibly well, and the dial system is vastly different from X Wing. Won't be the only thing I play, but it stands up to some serious competition. My friend and I start assembly tomorrow and that means other good games are getting bumped off the hobby desk for Rune Wars.
And what happens when Unit C is underwhelming, but is fixed by buying Unit H - a unit which otherwise doesn't fit your style?
Having it all in one faction is one thing. Trying to make units better but only by buying another unit isn't.
The price point is too damned high. They're trying to go up against very well established wargames - and ones where you can use a variety of manufacturer's models with ease - by using proprierty bases. £22.95 is the discounted price for four quite shonky looking Cavalry models. Four. Models. Are they made out of crack cocaine at that price?
How many of those would I need for an average sized unit?
The core game I can get for £79.95 discounted. That's way too much for the contents.
So whilst I say nothing about the gameplay - I've not played it, I can't see my locals getting into this because the entry price to find out if in fact it's any good is ridiculous.
And even if you do, their supply issues and not uncommon production delays can kill any excitement for a new unit - because you've no idea when it's coming out.
As I said - the game could well succeed, and genuinely good luck to it. I just don't know where they're going to find a big enough market to support it. As you said, it won't be the only thing you play - but the price seems to suggest they've not taken that thought into consideration.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And what happens when Unit C is underwhelming, but is fixed by buying Unit H - a unit which otherwise doesn't fit your style?
Having it all in one faction is one thing. Trying to make units better but only by buying another unit isn't.
The price point is too damned high. They're trying to go up against very well established wargames - and ones where you can use a variety of manufacturer's models with ease - by using proprierty bases. £22.95 is the discounted price for four quite shonky looking Cavalry models. Four. Models. Are they made out of crack cocaine at that price?
How many of those would I need for an average sized unit?
The core game I can get for £79.95 discounted. That's way too much for the contents.
So whilst I say nothing about the gameplay - I've not played it, I can't see my locals getting into this because the entry price to find out if in fact it's any good is ridiculous.
And even if you do, their supply issues and not uncommon production delays can kill any excitement for a new unit - because you've no idea when it's coming out.
As I said - the game could well succeed, and genuinely good luck to it. I just don't know where they're going to find a big enough market to support it. As you said, it won't be the only thing you play - but the price seems to suggest they've not taken that thought into consideration.
Seriously. Don't you play GW's AoS?
Doesn't everything you've said apply to GW?
Power creep. Check.
Massive price. Check.
Supply problems. Check.
GW produce games (outside of things like Bakugan) with the worst power creep requiring purchase of new units. That's how they keep making profit.
Price? You complain about 4 cavalry for 23 quid, yet 5 GW blood knights cost 61 quid.
Supply? GW create this problem themselves with a limited quantity when they release to force immediate purchase by those that want it.
I find it interesting that several of the AoS die hards have come in here bad mouthing a game prior to its release, yet spend most of their time on this forum defending GW from any tiny slur.
I'm not going to buy Runewars myself. I was initially tempted, but the thought of another game requiring a ton of cards wasn't for me. I already collect/play X-wing, Devil's Run and Walking Dead which are all card heavy.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And what happens when Unit C is underwhelming, but is fixed by buying Unit H - a unit which otherwise doesn't fit your style?
Having it all in one faction is one thing. Trying to make units better but only by buying another unit isn't.
The price point is too damned high. They're trying to go up against very well established wargames - and ones where you can use a variety of manufacturer's models with ease - by using proprierty bases. £22.95 is the discounted price for four quite shonky looking Cavalry models. Four. Models. Are they made out of crack cocaine at that price?
How many of those would I need for an average sized unit?
The core game I can get for £79.95 discounted. That's way too much for the contents.
So whilst I say nothing about the gameplay - I've not played it, I can't see my locals getting into this because the entry price to find out if in fact it's any good is ridiculous.
And even if you do, their supply issues and not uncommon production delays can kill any excitement for a new unit - because you've no idea when it's coming out.
As I said - the game could well succeed, and genuinely good luck to it. I just don't know where they're going to find a big enough market to support it. As you said, it won't be the only thing you play - but the price seems to suggest they've not taken that thought into consideration.
Seriously. Don't you play GW's AoS?
Doesn't everything you've said apply to GW?
Power creep. Check.
Massive price. Check.
Supply problems. Check.
I'm going to jump a bit here:
-Power Creep: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Man, this is a good joke I never tire of hearing. Strongest army in the game? Tomb Kings, who have THE oldest rules, and they are followed by Skryre who, again, have had no new rules since launch. Latest Stormcast release? Nerfed them. Vanguard-Palladors are inferior to dracoths, older models. Is it really power creep when this happens?
-Massive price. Yes, expensive (too expensive in plenty of cases), but they've been lowering in multiple occasions with reboxes.
-Supply problems. Not really? I mean, yeah, some things run out of stock but they are generally solved fairly quickly unless it's a thing they don't sell almost at all (and this is going just by the web-store not their physical stores)
You aren't inherently wrong but on some aspects you're not quite right. And the fact that you go cherry pick cases is also funny: 5 caledor princes and cold one riders of de, which are superior sculpts, cost 20 quid, 10 chaos knights cost 35 quid for 10 models who, again, are far better than the knights in the box. Saurus knights cost 20 quid for 8 guys!
And powercreep in AoS is a joke.
Now, aesthetically I feel GW's models are far superior sculpts, but that's all subjective. But for a visual game experience such as a tabletop wargame, aesthetics count for a lot. That's why we paint our models. That's why people have endless debates over what constitutes an acceptable tabletop standard. That's why people frown when someone tries to use Green Army Men as Guardsmen.
GW's supply? Stuff goes out of stock from time to time. Why, we don't know, but paranoid theories abound. It all comes back in stock within a couple of weeks though. FFG? Yeah, stuff is unavailable for a long old time.
When GW say a unit is out on the 8th April, it's out on the 8th April. FFG? Not so much.
When GW release an army, it's all there within typically 2-3 weeks.
FFG? Keep on the drip drip drip release - who knows if your favourite unit is about to crash out of usefulness in the next release wave, only to have the wave after that feature a card to put them back on the top of the pile - provided you keep on coughing up. That's engineered powercreep I thoroughly object to, because the card based nature of X-Wing shows it doesn't matter a damn if you're good with a Wave 1 fleet, sooner or later you need to start buying again just to keep your hand in, whether or not you use those new ships you've just had to buy to keep said hand in.
FFG are releasing this into an existing market, and are coming up from nothing. They're going up against people's existing Warhammer Armies, whether they still play 8th, 9th Age, Age of Sigmar or even all three. They're going up against Kings of War, an already popular alternative it would seem to GW's own rules set, yet one which doesn't seem to do anywhere near the business of the 'apparently awful' AoS.
If Runewars had prices closer to X-Wing than Armada, I could see it having a real chance. But it doesn't. And we know Armada isn't selling anywhere near X-Wing's volumes as a result.
Had a second look at it on Marco's video and some other assembly and unboxing videos (probably won't have a real life encounter due to the EU price, which is my main cause of discontent with the game ;( ):
1.Models - really nice. IMO nicer and cleaner aesthetics than GW's fantasy models to which they're being compared. Really easy to build and the way they're assembled makes it very easy to paint them without building them. Excellent work on both miniature design and casting techniques. I'd choose these any day of the year for gaming and just having them around before GW's models which are now delving deep into diorama class design...
2. I like how the squad rules scale with additional bases added. The clicking system is very neat. Originally I was against it due to the difficulty of lining your units with enemies' ones on the charge, but I see that the unit expandability really compensates for this. Thumbs up. Still not a fan of dials, but this is something FFG games nowadays come with so nothing out of the ordinary.
Overall I think that this game offers both deeper and much easier gameplay to get into (and perhaps also alot cleaner one) than AoS (which is the other new big fantasy game on the market right now), which despite its "only 4 page of rules" (bullcrap) has proven for me harder and harder to explain to people as time goes by - I blame the rules layout now. Now lower the price by 25% please, release 2 more races by the end of the year (it'll get very dull with only two available right now) and let me shake your hand FFG
CoreCommander wrote: Had a second look at it on Marco's video and some other assembly and unboxing videos (probably won't have a real life encounter due to the EU price, which is my main cause of discontent with the game ;( ):
1.Models - really nice. IMO nicer and cleaner aesthetics than GW's fantasy models to which they're being compared. Really easy to build and the way they're assembled makes it very easy to paint them without building them. Excellent work on both miniature design and casting techniques. I'd choose these any day of the year for gaming and just having them around before GW's models which are now delving deep into diorama class design...
2. I like how the squad rules scale with additional bases added. The clicking system is very neat. Originally I was against it due to the difficulty of lining your units with enemies' ones on the charge, but I see that the unit expandability really compensates for this. Thumbs up. Still not a fan of dials, but this is something FFG games nowadays come with so nothing out of the ordinary.
Overall I think that this game offers both deeper and much easier gameplay to get into (and perhaps also alot cleaner one) than AoS (which is the other new big fantasy game on the market right now), which despite its "only 4 page of rules" (bullcrap) has proven for me harder and harder to explain to people as time goes by - I blame the rules layout now. Now lower the price by 25% please, release 2 more races by the end of the year (it'll get very dull with only two available right now) and let me shake your hand FFG
I think the scaling system is a solid one too. I'm sure plenty of people will like it. Just that I HIGHLY doubt it will get much from the old WHFB crowd, if at all.
ced1106 wrote: Hmm... From the BGG Battlelore forum, I get the impression that FFG pretty much dumped it. The RW mechanics are different from Battlelore. Would be good for FFG to release these miniatures for BL as well, but I haven't seen any promo materials mentioning BL: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25417/battlelore
Now paint and play those RW miniatures and tell us what you think of the game!!!
I own everything possible for Battelore 2ED. Its a very well done and balanced game. It being their own created game, they didn't kill it. It has been a little while since an expansion, but they released a TON for it very quickly after the base game. FFG is known for not allocating resources very well, as they always jump on the new hottest thing. Im positive all the battlelore guys moved to RW.
The future of all of it though does hang on RW. If its popular, there is a good chance they will fill out battlelore with the elves faction.
If its not popular, they can go back to battlelore and buff it out more since it has a good following. eitherway, I see it being good future for battlelore
And as to the comment of using these parts for battlelore, no way. Battlelore is about 15mm or so. and the quality is good. Its not a table top minis game so I don't expect it to be GW quality. Soft plastic guys are fine for it.
I don't know if anyone is still subscribed to this thread, but I just read back over it all again. It was a great discussion at the time and reflecting back on it now is rather enlightening.
FFG did end up rounding out the Dwarves. But they also rounded out the humans (which was great) before finishing up the line (which was devastating!).
Second edition has come out since then, changed many of the core rules and didn't get past three factions either before being put out to pasture... it is a frustrating journey that Battlelore took in the end.
For me first edition was the better of the two, but I realise that second edition did change things that (although I personally didn't like at all) brought some others more enjoyment. But even they are now out of luck with the line being sold off in the holiday sale.
I still hold out hope for someone to handle a Fantasy C&C game properly...
I don't know if anyone is still subscribed to this thread, but I just read back over it all again. It was a great discussion at the time and reflecting back on it now is rather enlightening.
FFG did end up rounding out the Dwarves. But they also rounded out the humans (which was great) before finishing up the line (which was devastating!).
Second edition has come out since then, changed many of the core rules and didn't get past three factions either before being put out to pasture... it is a frustrating journey that Battlelore took in the end.
For me first edition was the better of the two, but I realise that second edition did change things that (although I personally didn't like at all) brought some others more enjoyment. But even they are now out of luck with the line being sold off in the holiday sale.
I still hold out hope for someone to handle a Fantasy C&C game properly...
1. Should have clarified, by battlelore guys I ment the team at FFG. The designers/devs shifted to do RW
2. The undead army was released in OCT of 2015. Two neutral packs came out AUG of 2015IPAD game in June of 2015 Humans and Demons expantion large packs in June of 2015 also.
So to the point, yea, its been over a year since anything new, but people are so hooked like meth heads on new releases they need something every month or they claim FFG killed it off. Its a board game, so I don't expect rapid releases for a board game. With the custom mission maker they have online for free, it has a limitless range of possibilities as it is.
Also on BBG they stated in a current interview when asked, they declined to say anything on Battlelore. If it was dead, FFG comes out early and tells people its dead.
The future is good because of my points. If RW does well, the world will draw people in to more of the Runebound games. If it does bad, they can refocus on battlelore.
They own the game, it isn't like the star wars license where they need to keep pumping stuff out. Look at all FFGs other board games, this one has a good bit of expansions which is a lot of a board game
Gotcha. Two years, though, is quite awhile ago. What other FFG product lines had over two years between expansions? I follow their Eldritch Horror line and used to follow FFG more closely, but can't think of more than two years between expansions, off-hand.
ced1106 wrote: Gotcha. Two years, though, is quite awhile ago. What other FFG product lines had over two years between expansions? I follow their Eldritch Horror line and used to follow FFG more closely, but can't think of more than two years between expansions, off-hand.
How many expansions should they make? They released undead in October 2015. It's a board game and you rarely seem them supported in perpetuity (I don't know of any off-hand). I think that they're approaching Runewars from the standpoint of a rank and file game being the natural, progressive step after the board game. They're using the same universe so they'll expand upon what they've already done and maybe tie it together, fluff-wise. It's also the same world that Descent is in. All told, people who like the setting will be able to flesh out complete campaigns with hero-based adventures in Descent leading to full-out war in Runewars being played on a Battlelore campaign map.
I've enjoyed the other games in the setting so I'll wait and see what it's like. I can really see a scenario where the Descent players kill a big bad and his uncle comes calling with his army.
str00dles1 wrote: Also on BBG they stated in a current interview when asked, they declined to say anything on Battlelore. If it was dead, FFG comes out early and tells people its dead.
FFG have refused to comment on the status of "Battles of Westeros: A Battlelore Game" since the last expansion in July 2012. The game is clearly dead and has been for a long time but FFG haven't admitted to it. Given the upcoming CMON Ice and Fire game Battles of Westeros is definitely dead. FFG may still have the licence but they can't comment with a similar rank and file game release by CMON in terms of model quality or quantity (on rules perhaps but that remains to be seen).
The main Battlelore game is a little odd as it was released in 2013 then nothing until 2015 when it received 7 expansions in the same year. Rune Wars definitely seems like a replacement and I can't see them ever releasing more Battlelore expansions.
Once FFG put battlelore on their Christmas clearance sale they pretty much declared it dead supportwise. That's one of many reasons why I won't be buying into this game.
Well, they need to make as many expansions as their fanbase wants so that these fans aren't saying that FFG has let them down, that's for sure. BL is crosses the line from boardgame to miniatures wargame, so its fanbase *expects* more than the usual one or two expansions that boardgames had, as well as regular releases, certainly more frequent than over two years.
The biggest disappointment in my gaming life was the way Battlelore has been handled by FFG. What a let down.
ced1106 wrote: Well, they need to make as many expansions as their fanbase wants so that these fans aren't saying that FFG has let them down, that's for sure. BL is crosses the line from boardgame to miniatures wargame, so its fanbase *expects* more than the usual one or two expansions that boardgames had, as well as regular releases, certainly more frequent than over two years.
The biggest disappointment in my gaming life was the way Battlelore has been handled by FFG. What a let down.
It's just like all the discussion that happens on here about GW; there's a vocal minority with a greater number of people who don't care and don't feel the need to comment. Companies don't mass-release products to satisfy the 100 or even 1000 people who are complaining, that's a recipe for failure.
They made the product, it had a good run; sure they could have kept making expansions to it but didn't for whatever reason (usually this occurs due to drop in consumer interest in the line). There's more content available than most board games that I own and it's infinitely replayable thanks to the scenario builder.
I look at it like, insert whatever beloved TV show or book series; there will always be people who want more more more but they're always the minority in the consumer pool. All it takes is someone making a deal with FFG to make licensed expansions and run a kickstarter to see if there's any real interest left in new stuff for the game; maybe one of these superfans can go that route instead of spending all their time griping on BGG.
In fact if you look at all of the threads in the past year on BGG, they're heavily positive with people sharing ideas and obviously enjoying the game.
Edit Edit:
As a note, I'm not trying to be argumentative here and I understand your perception of the issue, I just happen to disagree. We can leave it there if you like.
Am a little surprised that AoS players, who were presumably patient in waiting for their game to develop beyond 'Fisherprice: My first Wargame' (which was arguably its state when it was first released), are not prepared to extend the same courtesy to FFG for Runewars?
At least a little competition from the likes of Runewars (Kings of War, 9th age or whatever) should help to stop GW on resting on their laurels with AoS, as they perhaps did with much of WHFB, when there was very little in the way of serious competition for many years.
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
Wow, I've passively followed this game for years, and know some friends who have it. I've tried it and it's OK. But this is the very first time I've heard someone say folks bought the game "just for the models"
What do you do with the models? Surely this is a tiny minority of folks who maybe just want an X Wing on their desk, or handing from their ceiling? That folks would buy the models but never try the game honestly never occurred to me!
I bought X-Wing because of the models - well, because it was Star Wars. I bought them to play the game, but I wouldn't have bought that game if it was set in the Twilight Imperium universe, for example.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Difference there is that early adopters of AoS had armies and indeed rules ready to go. We didn't need to pay anything at all.
This one? Price point isn't at all competitive.
Hard to argue that you weren't encouraged to buy new miniatures though, when the existing ones had the schoolyard play-time special rules attached to them?
Although agree the price point FFG are asking for this does not really encourage you to dabble..
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Difference there is that early adopters of AoS had armies and indeed rules ready to go. We didn't need to pay anything at all.
This one? Price point isn't at all competitive.
Hard to argue that you weren't encouraged to buy new miniatures though, when the existing ones had the schoolyard play-time special rules attached to them?
Although agree the price point FFG are asking for this does not really encourage you to dabble..
Apparently the term joke couldn't be attached to new miniatures. Oh, wait, yeah, the first batch of new minis DID have some joke rules. Well, apparently one couldn't notice that they were meant to be jokes and not be taken ser- oh wait, people DID DO notice. Also, encouraging is now equal with needing now? Hadn't noticed.
But we are derailing greatly. I just want to see what scale (as in "points") will they operato on.
Are there any retail companies who make plastic miniatures in the USA or other first-world country? I assumed they'd be made in China.
Dunno who makes rock golem miniatures, but resin and metal tends to be cast in the same country as the creator, and resin and metal hold details better, so mebbe some hunting will find the miniatures you're looking for.
Google search for "rock golem minaiture" found these. The first pic is from Rothand Studios and looks nicely rockish.
The game did seem fun to play. Action types affecting initiative is a cool mechanic and the morale/panic being the source of 'critical hits' appealed to me. The weak point is the pricing. We'll have to see how thing shake out.
The game is designed by an american subsidiary of a European parent company. The parts are made in China.
ced1106 wrote: Are there any retail companies who make plastic miniatures in the USA or other first-world country? I assumed they'd be made in China.
Dunno who makes rock golem miniatures, but resin and metal tends to be cast in the same country as the creator, and resin and metal hold details better, so mebbe some hunting will find the miniatures you're looking for.
Google search for "rock golem minaiture" found these. The first pic is from Rothand Studios and looks nicely rockish.
Played two games of this at Adepticon, and got my hands on a starter box as well.
Really enjoyed the mechanics; the nuances of two dials infuses the game with a rich and cinematic array of options.
My buddy and I are jumping in. Won't be for everyone, but it is indeed a viable option for those who cannot find a 9th age community or prefer the popularity and support of an FFG system. We had a blast.
Pacific wrote: Am a little surprised that AoS players, who were presumably patient in waiting for their game to develop beyond 'Fisherprice: My first Wargame' (which was arguably its state when it was first released), are not prepared to extend the same courtesy to FFG for Runewars?
At least a little competition from the likes of Runewars (Kings of War, 9th age or whatever) should help to stop GW on resting on their laurels with AoS, as they perhaps did with much of WHFB, when there was very little in the way of serious competition for many years.
Agreed fully on the second point. I have no interest whatsoever in Runewars but if it provides competition, brings in new players, tests new ideas I can't see how it can be anything other than a positive thing for ALL games.
On the first point, from my point of view I suppose the reason I was willing to give GW the benefit of the doubt was that I have been in the hobby since... 1989 (jaysus that makes me feel old). So I have seen the evolution of 40K particularly from Rogue Trader through to today which gives me the confidence that they will grow and develop and put in the resources when they have free reign.
Elbows wrote: Watched the BoW' how to play" video...and was really underwhelmed.
TBF, I'm consistently underwhelmed by BoW videos.
Whenever I've seen a video from them playing a system I'm knowledgeable in myself, I can spot them regularly getting the most simple concepts and rules wrong. So it might be that video is not representative of the actual quality of the Runewars ruleset.
Elbows wrote: Watched the BoW' how to play" video...and was really underwhelmed.
TBF, I'm consistently underwhelmed by BoW videos.
Whenever I've seen a video from them playing a system I'm knowledgeable in myself, I can spot them regularly getting the most simple concepts and rules wrong. So it might be that video is not representative of the actual quality of the Runewars ruleset.
Yeah, I've watched them "play" several different games and it's almost as painful as watching GW employees play 40K.
Here's a video from GenCon. If it's not your cup of tea, fully understandable but I'd caution anyone from making decisions based on a BoW video.
My friend and and I got the game in our Adepticon Swag Bags and finally played last Thursday. I'll have a blog post about the game and my review of the rules up soon.
Suffice to say we enjoyed it alot and we're usually the last folks in the world to play wargames from "big name" companies (we like Song of Blades, Kings of War and Dragon Rampant)
We're going to give the system the old college try and buy some expansions when they are released.
StygianBeach wrote:The game looks tedious to play with the dials and counters, the models look fine but very Warcraft.
If the models are made in the USA (or another 1st world country) I may pick up the Rock Golem, otherwise I will leave it.
Don't know where the models are made, but I have them in hand and they're pretty good looking. Better than Bones and Restic, Not quite as nice as GW and Privateer plastics.
Good point about the style. There's a bit of an animation/graphic-novel look to them, but they're not terribly different from the style of GW/PP/Mantic/etc. FFG seems to be playing it safe style wise, not venturing far from what is already out there. The figs are nice enough, but it's the game itself that got me interested.
I'm generally a rules-lite, fast-play kind of guy and in practice the dials are actually a really fast way to note actions and carry out a hidden-command system. The action choosen on the dial also affects initiative order which is a pretty cool mechanic that makes your choices even more consequential. The game plays faster than most current games.
Shrapnelsmile wrote:Played two games of this at Adepticon, and got my hands on a starter box as well.
Really enjoyed the mechanics; the nuances of two dials infuses the game with a rich and cinematic array of options.
My buddy and I are jumping in. Won't be for everyone, but it is indeed a viable option for those who cannot find a 9th age community or prefer the popularity and support of an FFG system. We had a blast.
Not sure how much we'll be looking to the FFG community support, but you're describing our experience as well. This will be our first foray into a "big name" companies wargame for qute some time. The two dials are great.
Have to say - the dials and things make the gameplay seem intimidating to me (not that I'm likely to actually play anything) - but I like the minis - even though they have a simple, straightforward style. Would make them fast to paint up.
And I love the interlocking movement trays - that is a good idea that nobody does for some reason.
Schmapdi wrote: Have to say - the dials and things make the gameplay seem intimidating to me (not that I'm likely to actually play anything) - but I like the minis - even though they have a simple, straightforward style. Would make them fast to paint up.
And I love the interlocking movement trays - that is a good idea that nobody does for some reason.
I thought the same thing when I saw the dials on x-wing (still haven't played my x-wing starter set). I found the Runewars dials very easy to grok however. There's only a limited number of icons and they're all on a refference card too.
I'm generally a rules-lite, fast-play kind of guy and in practice the dials are actually a really fast way to note actions and carry out a hidden-command system. The action choosen on the dial also affects initiative order which is a pretty cool mechanic that makes your choices even more consequential. The game plays faster than most current games.
...
Really enjoyed the mechanics; the nuances of two dials infuses the game with a rich and cinematic array of options.
My buddy and I are jumping in. Won't be for everyone, but it is indeed a viable option for those who cannot find a 9th age community or prefer the popularity and support of an FFG system. We had a blast.
Not sure how much we'll be looking to the FFG community support, but you're describing our experience as well. This will be our first foray into a "big name" companies wargame for qute some time. The two dials are great.
This is one of the reasons why I'm interested in the game, it's almost a dissection of a classic wargame, but using boardgame mechanics and components to add extra detail, fun command decisions, and interesting results of those decisions without adding charts and tables. FFG may end up going overboard on this, but I've been trying to do something similar in game design for a long time.
I'm generally a rules-lite, fast-play kind of guy and in practice the dials are actually a really fast way to note actions and carry out a hidden-command system. The action choosen on the dial also affects initiative order which is a pretty cool mechanic that makes your choices even more consequential. The game plays faster than most current games.
If FF make the rules freely available (or sell separately) and the dials actually speed up play, then I may have to give the rules a test run.
FFG almost always makes their rules available for free. They haven't yet for Runewars, but the all of the book content from the core set can be found in PDF if you check the FFG Runewars forum
I'm generally a rules-lite, fast-play kind of guy and in practice the dials are actually a really fast way to note actions and carry out a hidden-command system. The action choosen on the dial also affects initiative order which is a pretty cool mechanic that makes your choices even more consequential. The game plays faster than most current games.
If FF make the rules freely available (or sell separately) and the dials actually speed up play, then I may have to give the rules a test run.
It's likely that the rules wil be free, but unlikely that the dials will be free. I could be wrong, but I think that with X-wing the only way to get dials and cards was to buy units. I haven't looked deep enough into X-wing to see if the dials ended up on pirated sites or if anyone ever made a "Dial Maker" program as -IIRC- folks have made for clix games.
On the other hand, The information from the dials is on the back of the rulebook, but not indial form. Might still be enough to give the rules a brief shot if you can find a list of the attack dice (from the unit cards) that each unit has.
I'm generally a rules-lite, fast-play kind of guy and in practice the dials are actually a really fast way to note actions and carry out a hidden-command system. The action choosen on the dial also affects initiative order which is a pretty cool mechanic that makes your choices even more consequential. The game plays faster than most current games.
If FF make the rules freely available (or sell separately) and the dials actually speed up play, then I may have to give the rules a test run.
It's likely that the rules wil be free, but unlikely that the dials will be free. I could be wrong, but I think that with X-wing the only way to get dials and cards was to buy units. I haven't looked deep enough into X-wing to see if the dials ended up on pirated sites or if anyone ever made a "Dial Maker" program as -IIRC- folks have made for clix games.
On the other hand, The information from the dials is on the back of the rulebook, but not indial form. Might still be enough to give the rules a brief shot if you can find a list of the attack dice (from the unit cards) that each unit has.
Rules are always free. FFG posts them up for every game.
Youd have to print the stat cards, if they shown any from the articles or ask on BGG.
The dials, if popular will be made from third parties. X wing has lots of third parties that make dials, tokens, stands, etc.
The issue is its going to be a lot of work just to test the game. Either try the real thing in a store that has a demo copy, buy one yourself, or test at a convention.
It would literally not be worth all the effort/time/money printing what you need
I'd put all the symbols that are on the dials on a piece of card and then cover it with some clear tape. Then use a dry erase marker to circle your selection on each half and put the card face down behind the unit. Much easier than making dials for a test game.
Mini's are a solid Meh in terms of quality.Not terrible but if you weren't buying them for the game you probably wouldn't pick them up over something else.
The didn't have too much of a skim through the rules but i did notice that on the back of the getting started booklet was a page of frequently forgotten rules. Not a good sign in my book if your quickstart guide has to have a prompt sheet, it suggests that the rules might be clunky or not as elegantly grafted to thje x-wing framework as some may like.
The lore book is a nice addition, although if you're looking for a game with a unique and rich setting to play fluffy games in then you may need to add your own fluff since it's all a little bit generic fantasy place names.
Everything else was well presented and nicely produced as you would expect, But overall I was underwhelmed.
(I'll say outright that this game probably isn't aimed at players like me, But i don't go into any game wanting to hate it.I want to like every fantasy game because i love me some fantasy.)
Mini's are a solid Meh in terms of quality.Not terrible but if you weren't buying them for the game you probably wouldn't pick them up over something else.
The didn't have too much of a skim through the rules but i did notice that on the back of the getting started booklet was a page of frequently forgotten rules. Not a good sign in my book if your quickstart guide has to have a prompt sheet, it suggests that the rules might be clunky or not as elegantly grafted to thje x-wing framework as some may like.
The lore book is a nice addition, although if you're looking for a game with a unique and rich setting to play fluffy games in then you may need to add your own fluff since it's all a little bit generic fantasy place names.
I think you're mostly correct about the minis and fluff. They're fine, but it's true that folks aren't going to be buying this for cutting edge minis or original background. However, one thing the "Terrinoth" universe does have going for it is that it is shared with other games like Runebound, Descent, Battlelore, Dungeon Quest and Rune Age. Still nothing as deep as WHFB, Iron Kingdoms, etc but there's more than just Runewars for information on the universe.
I can't stress enough though that based (admitedly on one game...) the rules don't seem clunky at all and generally feel quite elegant. The "frequently forgotten rules" are just a few reminders for beginners. My buddy and I have tons of minis and lots of rules already, but it was a play through the Runewars rules that made us say, "let's invest in this game".
I could be wrong and who knows what future expansions will to do the system but I think that initially this is a game that folks are going to buy precisely for the fast-playing, smooth rules.
The didn't have too much of a skim through the rules but i did notice that on the back of the getting started booklet was a page of frequently forgotten rules. Not a good sign in my book if your quickstart guide has to have a prompt sheet, it suggests that the rules might be clunky or not as elegantly grafted to thje x-wing framework as some may like.
That's actually a fairly common element of rule books, it's done in SAGA for instance (which is a bloody brilliant set of rules). I think actually pretty useful, it helps highlight some of the smaller things that you might well miss on a first read-through, but have some impact on how the game plays.
So actually, I think it's a sign that a game has been pretty well playtested and balanced (they've put the game through focus groups/playtesting, those were the kind of things that are likely missed by new players)
Dials are such a permanent and clumsy mechanic for games. Kinda wish they'd go away.
One of the biggest drawbacks to X-Wing is the dial. Its physical size means there are a finite number of maneuvers a ship can do before they just won't literally fit on the dial. And then, once the dial is printed, that dial's contents are set in stone. You look at early-wave ships like the A-Wing and Interceptor and wonder why they can't do maneuvers a clumsy bomber can do? Simple, they were released before that maneuver even existed in the game.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Dials are such a permanent and clumsy mechanic for games. Kinda wish they'd go away.
One of the biggest drawbacks to X-Wing is the dial. Its physical size means there are a finite number of maneuvers a ship can do before they just won't literally fit on the dial. And then, once the dial is printed, that dial's contents are set in stone. You look at early-wave ships like the A-Wing and Interceptor and wonder why they can't do maneuvers a clumsy bomber can do? Simple, they were released before that maneuver even existed in the game.
I wonder if that's more the fault of the company not updating dials than it is the fault of the dial itself? Seems like what FFG should do is allow folks to exhange their old dials for new ones. Sort of how you could (possibly still can?) exchange your old Dark Age rulebooks for new ones or how Warmachine will sell you new unit cards for your armies.
However, the command tool -and the accompanying rigidly defined movement and turning templates- do bring to the fore the question of "How much control should a player have in a given wargame?" Is absolute control absolutely necessary or can limitations improve the tactical nature of a game. It's an argument that predates command dials by a few decades, but Runewars certainly falls on one side of the argument.
Generally I fall on the side of more control even if it's "gamey". I'm not a huge fan of reaction systems like Two Hour Wargames and Tomorrow's War in which orders can be given, but the way troops obey and react isn't guaranteed. Kings of War is a system that generally represents my prefferences and even though Song of Blades requries you to gamble for activations once you activate you can pretty much choose what to do.
For some reason, though I really liked the dual dial action and modifier system which gives more options than a single X-wing dial but still has limitations largely because of the defined templates which require you to move the full distance exactly and if moving and turning only allow proscribed distance and degree of turn. I also like the fundamental idea of hidden orders, but find writing them out tedious, something the command tool simplifies and standardizes.
The physical dials and boardgame style components are a problem in the long term, but the gameplay aspects they add when used properly are often worth it.
I've been considering sets of generic specialty dice, and command tokens/dials that work in a similar way that can reference easily printed and updated rules. I actually think some generic icon based dice for use by custom rules sets would be a good thing for rules writers across the industry, much like how role playing games use fudge dice and such.
A good example is Wargods, the game is excellent despite the miniature line and support being glacial, archaic, and poorly managed. They have a command system not unlike Runewars where you must give your units a command token, face down, at the start of a round. This determines whether they're charging, moving, or doing any other actions. Then units move by initiative values set. There's more to it, but the system worked even if it was basic. Using components, Rune Wars has run with that and added the ability to set individual initiative values per action, and even included modifiers for common actions that give units their own flavor of those actions.
Selecting an order from a list and putting down a dial or token and then later revealing it has been around in a lot of games for a while. It seems to come in and out of fashion as the decades go by.
I like it a lot and will keep tabs on Runewars as a result, but I really don't like the puzzle piece bases or the look of those giant dial standees on the table, so the odds of me getting into it and playing it straight are really low.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Dials are such a permanent and clumsy mechanic for games. Kinda wish they'd go away.
One of the biggest drawbacks to X-Wing is the dial. Its physical size means there are a finite number of maneuvers a ship can do before they just won't literally fit on the dial. And then, once the dial is printed, that dial's contents are set in stone. You look at early-wave ships like the A-Wing and Interceptor and wonder why they can't do maneuvers a clumsy bomber can do? Simple, they were released before that maneuver even existed in the game.
How is this different than a Codex printing of stats? The only difference is that GW will later print another Codex that you have to purchase again. And what maneuvers are you talking about? Or maybe you just aren't that familiar with the tactical aspect of X-Wing, because the A-Wing and Interceptor have some of the best, and for another matter, thematically accurate dials in the game. Dials and templates are some of the best recent trends in modern competitive miniature gaming, in my opinion. I don't understand how a system without them can even compete nowadays for the competitive gamer. Look at high level Warmahordes, which was always billed as taking the tournament gamer market away from GW, when you need to pre measure focus areas, use dummy bases and movement templates anyway, because failing a charge is a matter of millimeters on your tape measure... Honestly, I'm not even interested playing a game with a tape measure in competitive facet.
These type of critiques, taken any more than some random Joe's personal taste, are totally mindboggling. The fact that a huge chunk of posts in here are even questioning what the market could be for this game, when there are about a million kickstarters for miniature games every day that people happily throw money at, almost lead me to be that people have ulterior motives for critiquing this product. And this is all coming from me, who isn't even sure if they are going to buy the game. But lets at least have an honest discussion on it, in the freaking Runewar thread
I'm liking the lack of distinct game phases. Once it gets going, it seems like it'll be fast to,play, which is great. Seems like it fits somewhere between armada and x wing on how fiddly and long it is, which might be a sweet spot for some people. The movement is really quick, which is generally where things bog down a bit with armada.
What's really got me excited though are the deployment and objective cards. They're simple but change each game enough to hopefully keep it interesting. Playing every game as a "pitched battle" seems to be a trap most miniature games fall into, and it gets boring and also leads to a stale meta.
WUWU wrote: And what maneuvers are you talking about?
Maybe the Tallon Roll and the Segnor's Loop?
Or maybe you just aren't that familiar with the tactical aspect of X-Wing
Apparently more familiar than you are, lol.
because the A-Wing and Interceptor have some of the best, and for another matter, thematically accurate dials in the game.
Well, except for the aforementioned maneuvers, and the ability to do all of the 1 speed maneuvers. Guess because the accelerator was greased up a bit too much on the low end.
On a different note, don't even worry about the slightly bent plastic pieces. Ease of assembly makes up for it, and straightening spears, swords etc. is a breeze:
Quick boiling water dip, adjust to your specs, then a slightly longer cold water immersion. No worries.
WUWU wrote: And what maneuvers are you talking about?
Maybe the Tallon Roll and the Segnor's Loop?
Or maybe you just aren't that familiar with the tactical aspect of X-Wing
Apparently more familiar than you are, lol.
because the A-Wing and Interceptor have some of the best, and for another matter, thematically accurate dials in the game.
Well, except for the aforementioned maneuvers, and the ability to do all of the 1 speed maneuvers. Guess because the accelerator was greased up a bit too much on the low end.
You may not agree with the design decisions but: http://loremasters-wargames.proboards.com/thread/351/dial-wing-creators-talk-dials I thought it was nice that they even bothered answering design questions and obviously put thought into it other than the usual GW, "Well, we put loads of miniatures on the table and threw a bunch of dice around and just guessed at what we wanted stats and point values to be....look, beer and pretzels!"
I can always point out parts of game rules where I'm scratching my head, in any system, but meh, it's a game. If an A-Wing could do every maneuver an x-wing could, what'd be the point in having an x-wing?
Vertrucio wrote:The physical dials and boardgame style components are a problem in the long term, but the gameplay aspects they add when used properly are often worth it.
I've been considering sets of generic specialty dice, and command tokens/dials that work in a similar way that can reference easily printed and updated rules. I actually think some generic icon based dice for use by custom rules sets would be a good thing for rules writers across the industry, much like how role playing games use fudge dice and such.
A good example is Wargods, the game is excellent despite the miniature line and support being glacial, archaic, and poorly managed. They have a command system not unlike Runewars where you must give your units a command token, face down, at the start of a round. This determines whether they're charging, moving, or doing any other actions. Then units move by initiative values set. There's more to it, but the system worked even if it was basic. Using components, Rune Wars has run with that and added the ability to set individual initiative values per action, and even included modifiers for common actions that give units their own flavor of those actions.
Hidden token activation is a pretty common thing in games. However, if you want to use tokens for hidden orders then you've got to have alot of tokens. Runewars already has a fair number of tokens.
I've seen dice used for command actions, (maybe the new warpath? not sure..). Saga is kind of like this in that you roll dice and use them to activate actions. However, dice don't lend themselves well to hidden orders.
frozenwastes wrote:Selecting an order from a list and putting down a dial or token and then later revealing it has been around in a lot of games for a while. It seems to come in and out of fashion as the decades go by.
I like it a lot and will keep tabs on Runewars as a result, but I really don't like the puzzle piece bases or the look of those giant dial standees on the table, so the odds of me getting into it and playing it straight are really low.
I also agree about the puzzle piece bases. I defnitely see the advantage as far as movement, but my guess is that we're going to see alot of bare black base edges because any paint on those edges is inneveitably going to chip over time.
As for the standees, it's not too much of an issue IMHO, because you can always choose to place them by the unit cards at the table edge rather than by the unit itself.
If its a FFG game, it will have a dial. 90% of their games have at least one.
This isn't a problem with the game, its the company. For the case of X Wing, if something is outdated, it would make sense to release updated dials, but if they are going to go that route, they will just give you a new ship to buy also with a different dial.
As for the frequently forgotten rules, that's actually a good thing. It has nothing to do with the rules being clunky or not clear. FFG has some of the best books. Learn to play then the rules reference book for the in-depth details clearly laid out. FFR section just shows they tested the game a lot and its useful tips for remembering rules and such to help newbies. Its like in their Arkham Horror LCG, they suggest taking a mulligan for asset cards at the start of the game for a good opening hand. They don't have to do that, but it helps newbies.
Talking to friends more on it, and one of them owning copies for their store, they like it, but one of the biggest issues is the 2 factions. Id bet a good amount of people wont buy it for this reason alone. You cant do 2 factions for a miniatures game at release. It just wont take off anywhere when your setting is generic vanilla fantasy. Star Wars has the massive IP behind it so that's why it is going so strong still with now 3 factions.
Id consider this game in a weird purgatory state. Maybe its to give X wing players a fantasy game? Maybe its more like a board game with minis? But tis trying to do mass combat ranked file easy? Its not a skirmish game sooo? The game is not well defined what its purpose is to fill. I like it over all, but wont invent a penny into it as its all over the place. Sticking to 6mm KoW for ranked mass battles
Eilif wrote: As for the standees, it's not too much of an issue IMHO, because you can always choose to place them by the unit cards at the table edge rather than by the unit itself.
The strange thing is that for this game I wouldn't want the dials anywhere near the units in question, but for x-wing when people put the dials nowhere near the ships it annoys me.
Eilif wrote: As for the standees, it's not too much of an issue IMHO, because you can always choose to place them by the unit cards at the table edge rather than by the unit itself.
The strange thing is that for this game I wouldn't want the dials anywhere near the units in question, but for x-wing when people put the dials nowhere near the ships it annoys me.
Isn't the basic table size 3' wide? So for most folks (with a 4' wide playing space) you can put the dials and cards and such at the edge of the table, roughly lined up with the units they refer to. I think these dials sound nifty.
agnosto wrote: [If an A-Wing could do every maneuver an x-wing could, what'd be the point in having an x-wing?
It's tougher, does more damage, and has the option for Astromechs, and therefore shield regeneration and other tricks?
There are plenty of mechanics in the X-Wing game to differentiate ships from one another.
Card design where icon size selections limit ships to 4 action types based simply on a limitation of physical space, and a dial that limits the total number of maneuvers simply based on limitation of physical space is bad game design, not differentiation, lol.
agnosto wrote: [If an A-Wing could do every maneuver an x-wing could, what'd be the point in having an x-wing?
It's tougher, does more damage, and has the option for Astromechs, and therefore shield regeneration and other tricks?
There are plenty of mechanics in the X-Wing game to differentiate ships from one another.
Card design where icon size selections limit ships to 4 action types based simply on a limitation of physical space, and a dial that limits the total number of maneuvers simply based on limitation of physical space is bad game design, not differentiation, lol.
You didn't read the interview, did you?
As always YMMV. I have much more fun with XWing and games like it than I do with games like 40K because they don't require me to parse badly written rules to as great an extent and allow me to have fun. Again, YMMV, but I want a beer and pretzels game to actually promote the presence of beer and pretzels rather than stacks of books, supplements, army lists, and case upon case of miniatures. I play games, I don't "hobby" and I play in the little free time that I have, I don't min-max or otherwise try to find exploits, I play what is fun to me and my friends who are like-minded. XWing works as do all of the other FFG studio games that I've played. Again YMMV but I find GW's rules to be much less intuitive and user friendly than FFG's and so that's what I play. YMMV.
Eilif wrote: As for the standees, it's not too much of an issue IMHO, because you can always choose to place them by the unit cards at the table edge rather than by the unit itself.
The strange thing is that for this game I wouldn't want the dials anywhere near the units in question, but for x-wing when people put the dials nowhere near the ships it annoys me.
That is strange...
I get you Frozen Wastes, oddly feel the same way. During my RW demos there was plenty of room for the the dials to be pulled to the back, away from the view of the clashing units. and that wasn't even on the standard 3' x 6' board. My group will just use our 4' x 6' F.A.T. mats and both players will have a good half a foot for their tokens, dials and other necessities without messing up the aesthetics of the table top.
My review and battle report of Runewars is up at the club's blog.
It's not a roll-by-roll report, but I go quickly through the course of the game and insert my thoughts and observations on the various aspects of the rules and gameplay as they came up for us. https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/04/06/runewars-first-game-and-review/ Beware though, we violated CSW's painted-only policy, so while there are plenty of picures, they are all of drab, grey hordes.
Oh, the Horror....
Eilif wrote: My review and battle report of Runewars is up at the club's blog.
It's not a roll-by-roll report, but I go quickly through the course of the game and insert my thoughts and observations on the various aspects of the rules and gameplay as they came up for us. https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/04/06/runewars-first-game-and-review/ Beware though, we violated CSW's painted-only policy, so while there are plenty of picures, they are all of drab, grey hordes.
Oh, the Horror....
Spoiler:
Cool write-up, thanks for sharing. I found the missed charge rule to be a bit underwhelming and would break any immersive play as you sit there and think "they were staring each other in the eyes, why in the world would they miss contact?"
That's where the XWing-like movement mechanics will fail most I think.
Eilif wrote: My review and battle report of Runewars is up at the club's blog.
It's not a roll-by-roll report, but I go quickly through the course of the game and insert my thoughts and observations on the various aspects of the rules and gameplay as they came up for us. https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/04/06/runewars-first-game-and-review/ Beware though, we violated CSW's painted-only policy, so while there are plenty of picures, they are all of drab, grey hordes.
Oh, the Horror....
Spoiler:
Cool write-up, thanks for sharing. I found the missed charge rule to be a bit underwhelming and would break any immersive play as you sit there and think "they were staring each other in the eyes, why in the world would they miss contact?"
That's where the XWing-like movement mechanics will fail most I think.
You're very welcome, thanks!
For me, the pass-by was the most significant shortcoming of the rules. The rest of the rules seemed to work so darn well, that how one feels about the possibility for pass-by's may be the crux decision point for whether or not to commit to these rules.
I see two mitigating factors that can miminize, but not eliminate this. First, with more practice using the templates we can assume that far fewer pass-by's will occur. Second, if one side wants to charge and the other wants to pass by, it does allow for a nice "Chicken" factor as you try to guess which way your opponent will go. Still no matter how experienced the players are there is still a slim chance that two units could both try to charge each other and both could miss and that's something that's very hard to justify in any realistic manner.
frozenwastes wrote:So the puzzle piece edges don't actually interact with the movement templates and are only for linking bases together? Interesting.
They do interact. If you look at the movement temlate you'll see a little indent about a half inch from the start. The edge of the templates are designed specifically to line up strait alongside puzzle-piece style bases.
It looks like there's a gap to allow for the protruding puzzle piece but the actual anchor point is the base corner? Am I just not seeing it right?
I think you're seeing it right, the anchor point is the corner and then it indents so either side can accomodate the protruding edge of the puzzle piece. When you get to the end it bumps back out again to meet the edge of the base.
I lold when I read about units receiving panic tokens when they miss each other "Omg, omg, I screwed up. What should I do?"
The fact that units can miss each other is a thorn in the eye from a realistic perspective, but as a "gamey" mechanic I think that it makes the game more interesting. After all locking into combat may be a little harsher than I suspect and the charge may be a bigger deal than it seems. It is a quirk of the system as much as the dials are - I don't see it as a hindrance.
Speaking of the charge rules, since I've not read the leaked rulebook nor read the unit cards, how severe is unit locking? Is it a fight to the death or can a unit retreat or eventually fall back?
I think you're seeing it right, the anchor point is the corner and then it indents so either side can accomodate the protruding edge of the puzzle piece. When you get to the end it bumps back out again to meet the edge of the base.
So anyone who hates the puzzle piece look could just replace them with laser cut mdf of dimensions based on the corners?
And then keep dials and whatnot on a small side table.
As for my earlier contradictory position on dials, it comes from playing against ships in X-wing where two ships are identical and the person keeps the dials back and then mixes up which one goes with which ship and is like "I didn't want to do that with this guy." The dials are extra clutter, which I don't like, but having them far away can lead to mistakes.
CoreCommander wrote: I lold when I read about units receiving panic tokens when they miss each other "Omg, omg, I screwed up. What should I do?"
The fact that units can miss each other is a thorn in the eye from a realistic perspective, but as a "gamey" mechanic I think that it makes the game more interesting. After all locking into combat may be a little harsher than I suspect and the charge may be a bigger deal than it seems. It is a quirk of the system as much as the dials are - I don't see it as a hindrance.
Speaking of the charge rules, since I've not read the leaked rulebook nor read the unit cards, how severe is unit locking? Is it a fight to the death or can a unit retreat or eventually fall back?
I don't exactly recall I'll check the rulebook and get back to you later this evening. I think there is a penalty for withdrawl, but I'll find out for sure.
frozenwastes wrote:
So anyone who hates the puzzle piece look could just replace them with laser cut mdf of dimensions based on the corners?
And then keep dials and whatnot on a small side table.
As for my earlier contradictory position on dials, it comes from playing against ships in X-wing where two ships are identical and the person keeps the dials back and then mixes up which one goes with which ship and is like "I didn't want to do that with this guy." The dials are extra clutter, which I don't like, but having them far away can lead to mistakes.
Fair point about dial clutter. The game does have pairs of numbered tokens (one for the unit and one for the card) that you can use to differentiate units of the same type but they aren't very big. From across the table you might have to ask your opponent to clarify which is which. Still, as long as the dial is kept by the card it should keep things strait.
If you hate the puzzle piece look you could easily make new turning templates. Just add the thickness of the indent around the curve. You could use the existing trays with the puzzle pieces chopped off and indents filled or make new movement trays.
I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.
Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.
This is very true. Conversations in the game store i own start with "Oooh, those are the Star Wars models i heard about, and i heard there is a game you can play with them".
Players get into xwing because of the models, the background, the love of star wars. They play the game because it's Star Wars and they own the models.
I don't see Rune Wars getting this huge boost of players. RW will live or die based on how people like the models and rules. Judged without the benefit of a huge franchise.
Well you kind of agree with my point then. X-wing draws people in with the minis and IP, and keeps them with the fantastic rules.
RW will draw people in with FFG's well built reputation for successful games, successful minis games, great OP, some people's needs for a 'better' rank and file game, and keep them with the fantastic rules.
That's one way to look at it.
Most happen to think their original IPS are ridiculously sub par creatively, their rules are bloated without need, and with so many already solid choices out there for designs, their inclusion into the market is redundant and many have already remarked on the rules being less than fantastic.
I'm definitely not interested in yet another attempt by a company to be drug into their lifestyle game with an IP that has all the creativity of wet cardboard.
Add another vote to the "no, thanks" pile that's accumulating.
With the number of FREE copies FFG has given out of this game to promote it, For their sakes it really needs to takes off. I'm not so sure it will, but FFG has been pushing this hard. Like they want to keep something out of Disney's thumb by not having it be Star Wars and it Being a success. If you look at their history with miniatures games, only the Star Wars ones have been a success. Anima Tactics? Failed and dropped! Dust Tactics? Failed and dropped!
I would actually say the commentary on the game and rules (from those who have actually played it) is rather more positive than negative, going on the past few pages of comment.
Of course, there is the possibility that those that weren't enamoured wouldnt bother posting about it
Meh. I live at FFG central. Their games plague the twin cities. This newest game being no exception.
It is anecdotal, but I'm not hearing rave reviews from the locals. More along the line of "competent, but why bother?"
My own experience with this is the same. I'm not seeing why I should pursue this. I don't have "brand loyalty", so I couldn't care less what bloated pap FFG produce this time. The background is craptastic terrinoth, a long standing struggle by FFG to make it relevant has produced nothing other than force feeding their consumers an attempt to brand genericism that made gw profitable, yet failing.
The models have a couple neat bits, but largely unremarkable. So no draw there either.
Its the acme of mediocrity, except its "the newnizz" and has fans of ffgs bloat as their main defenders.
Conversely, there's tons of people from the tabletop/board gaming community who LOVE and have been playing Descent (the dungeon crawler set in FFG's Terrinoth universe) - they may migrate to Runewars. Then there's the Battlelore people too.
And I'm not sure where this reputation of FFG's minis games being "bloated" comes from? My experience of tabletop miniatures games is:
Games Workshop:
- New editions every few years
- Massive, complicated, obtuse, tombs of rules, with each army needing it's own rulebook
- Frequent reference to the rules during gameplay
- A core rulebook that costs £50 and army codexes that cost £35
FFG:
- Simple, phase based play,
- Dynamic, you-go, I-go systems
- Short (around 20 pages or less) rulebooks
- After learning games, incredibly rare and infrequent reference to the rules
- Rules that are free!
So, is there an official release date yet? I think I read early april, doesn't seem to be out yet.. seems like people are playing, but are they just playtesters and reviewers?
Don't know if folks have seen these yet. I am still leaning towards no for the figures, but these videos made me like them a bit more than I did initially.
For anyone into these sorts of things the same gentleman has many awesome videos on his channel, including ones for Descent, Zombicide, Z:Black Plague, and Imperial Assault
jonboyjon1990 wrote: Conversely, there's tons of people from the tabletop/board gaming community who LOVE and have been playing Descent (the dungeon crawler set in FFG's Terrinoth universe) - they may migrate to Runewars. Then there's the Battlelore people too.
Battlelore players want to play battlelore, and most are pretty salty at FFG right now anyway
Haven't seen any RW threads on the BGG Descent forums, or crossover posts of any Terrinoth game among the BGG forums, for that matter. Terrinoth is a generic fantasy setting that hasn't been developed by FFG (same for their Android universe, I think). It's certainly not like GW, where, as soon as they announce a game, all the GW gamers start posting about it (same for Glorantha, I suppose!).
jonboyjon1990 wrote: Conversely, there's tons of people from the tabletop/board gaming community who LOVE and have been playing Descent (the dungeon crawler set in FFG's Terrinoth universe) - they may migrate to Runewars. Then there's the Battlelore people too.
I really don't think they're going to get a lot of BattleLore people, because BattleLore has been left to die an anonymous and unannounced death with only three factions playable. The player base is feeling really, really burned with how FFG handled it.
With the exception of X-Wing that totally proves the rule, FFG has a miserable track record with actual miniatures games (as opposed to board games that happen to have miniatures). Others have listed some of their past failures, but everyone seems to have forgotten how awful their Mutant Chronicles attempt was in the pre-painted space.
I'm really just not entirely clear who this is pitched at, and what advantage it has over competing minis games.
The problem about "better" is the cost of this utility. This cost is the hundreds of dollars the miniatures are expected to cost, the time it takes to paint them, and whatever work is needed to build the community.
Reviews have said the game is, indeed, better, but that the reviewer would not have picked up the game if they had to pay for it. Considering that the starter set MSRP is something like $100, that means this "better" isn't worth the cost of the game.
(I realise that seemingly comes as a lower priority in some cases, compared to which company's logo is on the side of the box)
Define better. Then realise it's a meaningless effort. Just a question, do you eat five moderately light meals a day, do exercise regularly etc. etc.? That list of things, if done, would be better for your health. But people don't just do something that is good, otherwise Mcdonalds and company would have gone bankrupt ages ago. People do what they like and while rulesets can be a nice factor they aren't the end all. Even leaving outside things like companies.
ced1106 wrote:The problem about "better" is the cost of this utility. This cost is the hundreds of dollars the miniatures are expected to cost, the time it takes to paint them, and whatever work is needed to build the community.
Reviews have said the game is, indeed, better, but that the reviewer would not have picked up the game if they had to pay for it. Considering that the starter set MSRP is something like $100, that means this "better" isn't worth the cost of the game.
I was that reviewer. It's true I wouldn't have picked up the game if it hadn't been given to me, but that has much more to do with my love of indie wargaming and my satisfaction with the games I've been playing, (in some cases for years) rather than the cost of this set. My experience with GW games, and observing Warmachine leads me to believe that if I were looking for a "Big Name" fantasy wargame this would be an excellent choice and certainly the one I'd choose over those two.
rmeister0 wrote:
I really don't think they're going to get a lot of BattleLore people, because BattleLore has been left to die an anonymous and unannounced death with only three factions playable. The player base is feeling really, really burned with how FFG handled it.
With the exception of X-Wing that totally proves the rule, FFG has a miserable track record with actual miniatures games (as opposed to board games that happen to have miniatures). Others have listed some of their past failures, but everyone seems to have forgotten how awful their Mutant Chronicles attempt was in the pre-painted space.
I'm really just not entirely clear who this is pitched at, and what advantage it has over competing minis games.
Battlelore does seem to have died an unfortuante death. I recently bought everything but the one-offs at clearance just to be sure I had the whole package for future play with my son. FFG doesn't have the best track record, but the truth is that most games don't last more than a few years. If the biggest and most reliable rulesets don't appeal to you, you buy the games you want to play and you take your chances.
ced1106 wrote:The problem about "better" is the cost of this utility. This cost is the hundreds of dollars the miniatures are expected to cost, the time it takes to paint them, and whatever work is needed to build the community.
Reviews have said the game is, indeed, better, but that the reviewer would not have picked up the game if they had to pay for it. Considering that the starter set MSRP is something like $100, that means this "better" isn't worth the cost of the game.
I was that reviewer. It's true I wouldn't have picked up the game if it hadn't been given to me, but that has much more to do with my love of indie wargaming and my satisfaction with the games I've been playing, (in some cases for years) rather than the cost of this set. My experience with GW games, and observing Warmachine leads me to believe that if I were looking for a "Big Name" fantasy wargame this would be an excellent choice and certainly the one I'd choose over those two.
rmeister0 wrote:
I really don't think they're going to get a lot of BattleLore people, because BattleLore has been left to die an anonymous and unannounced death with only three factions playable. The player base is feeling really, really burned with how FFG handled it.
With the exception of X-Wing that totally proves the rule, FFG has a miserable track record with actual miniatures games (as opposed to board games that happen to have miniatures). Others have listed some of their past failures, but everyone seems to have forgotten how awful their Mutant Chronicles attempt was in the pre-painted space.
I'm really just not entirely clear who this is pitched at, and what advantage it has over competing minis games.
Battlelore does seem to have died an unfortuante death. I recently bought everything but the one-offs at clearance just to be sure I had the whole package for future play with my son. FFG doesn't have the best track record, but the truth is that most games don't last more than a few years. If the biggest and most reliable rulesets don't appeal to you, you buy the games you want to play and you take your chances.
These last few lines ... so true, so sad. I've invested in countless small systems and they usually don't end well. Still play some, but it's not as much fun as a supported game.
Why we are doing Age of Sigmar at the moment. Fun and manageable, but active and current as well.
Regardless I am putting together and painting Rune Wars. Worth my chances... I hope.
It's true that FFG discontinuing games has become a running joke (which will be the next one?), but it is also true that they produce content for their games (atleast those I used to and still play) at such a rate that most gamers find it difficult to squeeze the most out of the current expansion before the next one hits the shelves. One can buy FFG stuff, knowing that eventually it will be discontinued, but finding inner peace in the fact that he can play with the amassed expansions for a long time.
As someone living in an area that had a huge WFB following during 8th I know exactly the type of person this game is targeting, and I'm hopeful it will work.
When Age of Sigmar came out, the general feeling in this area was that it was a steaming pile of garbage. Playing that wasn't even a consideration. I hear they've made big improvements since then, but it still isn't the kind of game that someone who really enjoys WFB is going to be thrilled about. WFB was about tactical movement, getting the right units to charge in the right places, etc.
Those players tried Kings of War, but found it lacking. It's more tactical than Sigmar, for sure, but still doesn't have the level of complexity they're looking for. Some are playing 9th Age, but it's a difficult game to get going since it doesn't have a rulebook you can buy.
Based on my observations, the community that actually grew the most after 8th died was X-Wing. It was really surprising to me (the games look nothing alike) but made sense after I thought about it some. The games test a similar skillset; they're both all about movement and trying to outsmart your opponent by dictating the engagement better. I made this observation before Runewars was announced.
When Runewars was announced, I was certain that someone at FFG had made the same observation. The Runewars rules everything that WFB 8th Edition fans are looking for, in terms of playstyle. It also has more OP support than they're used to. It should be a home run with that crowd.
The downsides are the lack of model quality (they're fine, but they're not up to GW standards) and an unfamiliar business model. For a community that has become very used to using models from any miniatures line they'd like and customizing them as they see fit, the inflexible tournament guidelines that are most likely coming will be a bit of a rude awakening. The cards, especially, I see as a huge sticking point for some people; they've warmed up to it a bit with X-Wing, but many WFB players really didn't like the idea of "you can't have this upgrade unless you have the official card" and that will certainly be the case here, too. Some will be put off by the dials, the movement templates, etc. But overall, I think this game is going to be really great for a very significant percentage of that community. I know a few of us are going in heavily here.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Eilif, that is some damn faint praise. "the market for this game is the same market that almost kept these other unknown games afloat."
I don't pretend to praise the market. If you read my review linked above my praise is mostly for the rules which I found really refreshing.
I've been gaming for 25 years and one constant is that most games die after a few years. I thinks folks need to take a bit of perspective here. Maybe in 3- 4 years Runewars will be dead, but in the meantime players will have regular releases, tournament support, and very likely a farily active local fan presence. Can you say the same for Wrath of Kings, Clan War, Chronopia, AVP, etc, etc...
Shrapnelsmile wrote:
These last few lines ... so true, so sad. I've invested in countless small systems and they usually don't end well. Still play some, but it's not as much fun as a supported game.
Why we are doing Age of Sigmar at the moment. Fun and manageable, but active and current as well.
Regardless I am putting together and painting Rune Wars. Worth my chances... I hope.
AoS hasn't gotten my interest yet, but it seems to be a better and less clunky ruleset than WHFB and with GW you are guaranteed presence, players and some measure of longevity (at least until they Sigmar your game...). Anytime you venture outside the big games there's always a risk, but folks just have to set their expectations accordingly and decide if it's worth it.
Battlelore does seem to have died an unfortuante death. I recently bought everything but the one-offs at clearance just to be sure I had the whole package for future play with my son. FFG doesn't have the best track record, but the truth is that most games don't last more than a few years. If the biggest and most reliable rulesets don't appeal to you, you buy the games you want to play and you take your chances.
Some have managed to last quite well, particularly WM/H and Malifaux. But beyond that, yea, the market is crowded with failed attempts. For a while I think I bought all of them
I think what's slowly becoming more and more common, which was always true in historicals, is that people are willing to play rule sets that don't come with predefined models. Song of Blades and Heroes, Dragon Rampant, Frostgrave, One Page Rules, etc., gives the actual models you buy a life longer than the game they were made for. Heck, I've played more games of SoBaH with my Malifaux figures than I have ever played Malifaux itself.
Shrapnelsmile wrote: These last few lines ... so true, so sad. I've invested in countless small systems and they usually don't end well. Still play some, but it's not as much fun as a supported game.
Why we are doing Age of Sigmar at the moment. Fun and manageable, but active and current as well.
That's pretty much why I stick to "flagship" games, such as Songs of Blade and Heroes. These are the best-selling and primary products of their companies, so these companies are less likely to stop supporting them than a company which has other, better selling, product lines. This is also why I'm skipping CMON's Game of Thrones and Wrath of Kings, as well as various Mantic and FFG games. Of course, if a game doesn't need support, by all means pick it up!
Eilif wrote: I've been gaming for 25 years and one constant is that most games die after a few years. I thinks folks need to take a bit of perspective here. Maybe in 3- 4 years Runewars will be dead, but in the meantime players will have regular releases, tournament support, and very likely a farily active local fan presence. Can you say the same for Wrath of Kings, Clan War, Chronopia, AVP, etc, etc...
Well, I think there's a difference between say, BattleLore dying with all of THREE playable factions, and Warhammer FB dying off with a dozen.
Will Runewars really get regular releases? Here's the real honest answer: we don't know. Based on how some of the their earlier games have gone, it's possible that come end summer someone in charge looks at the financials and says "done". But they won't bother to tell anyone.
I don't *want* Runewars to fail, but I also want BattleLore to get more expansions so there is an option for someone who wants more than a boardgame but less than an entire hobby. They understand board game markets, but I don't see any history that tells me they really understand traditional miniatures markets, and this is much closer to that than X-Wing ever was.
I would also be curious to see if a community develops around Runewars that doesn't actually care much about painting the models, which would not be so unusual given the state of most of the Warmachine and 40K armies I see in my local stores. But this does bring me back to my original question, who exactly is this game targeted at? Miniature enthusiasts will balk at the limited troop selection, lack of customization options for the models themselves, and frankly a cost structure that doesn't undercut their competition. The board gamers may well be looking at this saying "what, I'm expected to paint these things?" and wondering where the hexes are. There may well be a huge untapped segment for this, I just don't see it right now.
Eilif wrote: I was that reviewer. It's true I wouldn't have picked up the game if it hadn't been given to me, but that has much more to do with my love of indie wargaming and my satisfaction with the games I've been playing, (in some cases for years) rather than the cost of this set.
I think, though, that your typical wargamer's "satisfaction with the games (they've) been playing" certainly is a major barrier to entry to RW.
Do we have any numbers or threads of new miniature wargamers who pick a new system with proprietary figures over current established ones? I know Kings of War, Frostgrave, and Songs of Blade and Heroes gained a foothold because you can use your own miniatures. I'm guessing that Warmachine Hordes and Malifaux entered the market because they were unusual enough from generic fantasy for gamers to pick up. X-Wing certainly was different enough that it could tap a larger market, of miniature gamers who liked Star Wars and didn't want to paint miniatures. (Anyone know how Star Trek: Attack Wing is doing and why?)
And, as rmeister0 says, I'm also curious about the market for unpainted miniature wargaming. Anyone here live nearby the FFG event center and can take photos of RW games a few months from now?
And, as rmeister0 says, I'm also curious about the market for unpainted miniature wargaming. Anyone here live nearby the FFG event center and can take photos of RW games a few months from now?
I'm sure I'll be popping in. My wife and I like using the table space there and, weirdly enough, they have more 40K and WM/H games going on there then I ever see at the bigger game store just a few miles distant.
Do we have any numbers or threads of new miniature wargamers who pick a new system with proprietary figures over current established ones? I know Kings of War, Frostgrave, and Songs of Blade and Heroes gained a foothold because you can use your own miniatures. I'm guessing that Warmachine Hordes and Malifaux entered the market because they were unusual enough from generic fantasy for gamers to pick up. X-Wing certainly was different enough that it could tap a larger market, of miniature gamers who liked Star Wars and didn't want to paint miniatures. (Anyone know how Star Trek: Attack Wing is doing and why?)
And, as rmeister0 says, I'm also curious about the market for unpainted miniature wargaming. Anyone here live nearby the FFG event center and can take photos of RW games a few months from now?
There are exceptions, but most folks I've met who buy games that don't require specific miniatueres are longer-term gamers who have already tried the all-in-one thing and are looking for something different. These are also the folks who are more likely to already have figures from other games to use in these games. However, I am active on other forms where these rules are quite popular and most folks who play them end up buying new figures for the inde rulesets they like. I've bought hundreds of figs for games that have no minis line of their own.
As for the market for gaming with unpainted minis, have you been to an FLGS? I don't think I've ever been to an FLGS Warmahordes night where more than 35% of the minis on the table were painted. I've been to 40k nights where more than 50% were painted, but it doesn't seem to be the norm. I doubt that Runewars will be much different. This is a large part of the reason I prefer to game with my club, but I'm willing to give the Runewars scene a chance if one develops.
rmeister0 wrote: I would also be curious to see if a community develops around Runewars that doesn't actually care much about painting the models, which would not be so unusual given the state of most of the Warmachine and 40K armies I see in my local stores. But this does bring me back to my original question, who exactly is this game targeted at? Miniature enthusiasts will balk at the limited troop selection, lack of customization options for the models themselves, and frankly a cost structure that doesn't undercut their competition. The board gamers may well be looking at this saying "what, I'm expected to paint these things?" and wondering where the hexes are. There may well be a huge untapped segment for this, I just don't see it right now.
Board gamers throw fits over basic assembly. Battles of Westeros required the player to glue the figures into their bases, and it was a constant source of anger and frustration for a lot of players. Even Super Dungeon Explore moved away from figures that required (painful) assembly to preassembled figures. I'm not sure I would release a game that required assembly, much less painting to a board gaming audience...
That being said, on BGG, I see a lot of people actually painting their board game figures as a way to pimp their gaming experiences. If the game was really, really exceptional, I guess it could draw painters to it. But I think it'll be another Warmachine - a game without the hobby element for the majority of its players.
I'm not picking up Runewars because A) I'm bitter as hell over FFG's treatment of BattleLore (through THREE editions) and B) everything about the idea of painting Runewars is offputting to me. A massive number of models, many of them identical, that feature sculpts that don't excite me? I'll never finish painting that. It'll be the Bloodreavers all over again. Besides, Shadow War: Armageddon is in the mail.
Eilif wrote: As for the market for gaming with unpainted minis, have you been to an FLGS? I don't think I've ever been to an FLGS Warmahordes night where more than 35% of the minis on the table were painted. I've been to 40k nights where more than 50% were painted, but it doesn't seem to be the norm. I doubt that Runewars will be much different. This is a large part of the reason I prefer to game with my club, but I'm willing to give the Runewars scene a chance if one develops.
Hmm... Come to think of it, the manager of my FLGS is a Crystal Brush participant and teaches his employees to paint, so maybe that has something to do with it...
Anyway, Bobb on BGG said: "There have been 2 other post XWing ganes using the Attack Wing system, and one failed (a fantasy game no less) and the other is a struggling niche game. The original Wing of War/Glory system remains a niche game. Star Wars is the main reason XWing is so popular, not the system."
I don't know if Star Wars is the sole reason for X-wing's success, but I feel the reason for the other flight path systems's failure is simple: Wizkids. Specifically:
Break-neck pace of releases
Xwing is on wave 11 for expansions. Star Trek, which came out a year after, is on wave 31. DnD Attack Wing had the equivalent of a wave every month for 6 months after release. Having to buy every x-wing expansion is something you're either ok with or you're not, but multiply that experience by a factor or 3-4, that's the Wizkids attack wing experience.
Meta-defining cards / ships limited to OP prize support.
X-wing has a fiercely competitive scene, but prizes are cool swag that pimps out your collection, like acylic tokens, alternate card art, dice, etc. ST Attack Wing has had 8 OP events with exclusive winner and participation prizes, the absolute nadir for me was when even the ship you got for winning or joining was randomized.
Dumb rules.
This is personal, so YMMV. But in DnD Attack Wing, to prevent turtling, ballistas were given a penalty any turn they stood still and fired, forcing you to move trundle them around the battlefield for them to be of any worth. Every single wargame I have ever played be it on tabletop or heck even video games penalizes catapults / trebuchets / ballistas / scorpions etc for moving and shooting, but in DnD AW its the norm, because you know, anti-turtling. This rule alone made me not want to play the game at all.
So yeah if you can tell, I don';t like WK games much haha. But to my original point, I feel the reason they failed was because they have no idea how to balance a game, make decent rules, and their tendency to use exclusives to drive sales. And not anything to do with the flight path system per se.
ced1106 wrote: I'm guessing that Warmachine Hordes and Malifaux entered the market because they were unusual enough from generic fantasy for gamers to pick up.
Before Malifaux, Wyrd Miniatures started off making a few steampunk-ish miniatures with no game attached. Move down the line a few years, here comes Malifaux, building on that miniatures range. It's the same way Games Workshop, Freebooter, Black Scorpion and I'm sure others I've missed started out. Ganesha Games are going the other way - they're known for doing sets of rules with no miniatures range, and are now Kickstarting a space fighter dogfight game with a range of miniatures. Presumably you get to a point where you're shifting enough of your miniatures that making a whole game to capture your market is the logical next step.
For me, the reasons why I didn't pick up Star Trek: Attack Wing and D&D: Attack Wing are: SW has poor miniatures. The X-Wing models are good models, regardless of what I do with them. I can use them to play X-Wing, or Full Thrust, or simply run around the lounge making "pew pew pew" noises. The Star Trek models, by contrast, look cheap. I have never looked at a ST:AW blister and thought "that looks cool". I've thought "I've got 30-year-old minis from Citadel and FASA that look better than those". D&D:AW had some cool big dragons, but then for some reason thought what everyone wanted from that game was expensively-packaged cheap-looking mobs of ground troops that I can get from Reaper for half the price.
I collected a lot of the Pirates of the Spanish Main ships because that was a fun game and within the context of the medium, the models were pretty good. I also have loads of Hoororclix Alien vs Predator models and Haloclix models, again because they're good models. With Star Trek, it looks like they thought they could coast by on the name.
I'd rather play Tail Feathers, even with its limited unit count, or Wings/Sails of Glory (the original, and IMO the best, of all these games).
I'm really liking these rules especially the part where you can reform your unit while engaged with the enemy so another one can charge in. Can you really do that? Rotating around a corner element then aligning with the enemy (effectively exposing your flank to it), but giving another unit the chance to charge in?
It's also sort of funny they can "shift" after they attack and do the game's analogue to an x-wing barrel roll. Though you don't get to place anywhere on the template, it's just a sideways move:
Though I must admit the more I look at them, the more those puzzle bases annoy me with how they look. And with the way they integrated them into the templates instead of just having them anchor on the corners means I don't think I'm going to be getting into this after all.
Within every community there are individuals who set the tone. It happens sometimes that people realize they can do so. That they can have massive influence on what goes down because they find themselves in a sea of followers, introverts and those without a plan. Pretty much happens in every walk of life, and organization as well.
I hate to be a critic, but the elves are just...too generic. There's absolutely nothing about them that is stand out. They could have at least gone for something other than the bog standard brown and green.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I hate to be a critic, but the elves are just...too generic. There's absolutely nothing about them that is stand out. They could have at least gone for something other than the bog standard brown and green.
They are nice models, tbh, but yeah they aren't really "fresh". An issue I've seen for most of the presented factions (that is humans and elves) is that FFG seems to make choices of colour scheme even worse than GW's 'Eavy Metal guys. Humans would look more nicer with steel schemes not that gaudy blue and gold colours that make them look like the soldiers from stormwind.
Surprised they're not at least offering a pdf with rules (and printable dials?) for all the Descent miniatures out there.
They are literally the same setting and could, for the most part, actually show up in a battle in this setting, no?
Seems like an easy way to jumpstart this without giving away sales to another company and/or make the transition easy for people with existing FFG-fantasy-miniatures.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I hate to be a critic, but the elves are just...too generic. There's absolutely nothing about them that is stand out. They could have at least gone for something other than the bog standard brown and green.
I think it's FFG's boardgame background showing through. The majority of the Runewars miniatures being shown are directly based on miniatures from the original Runewars, which were not designed to be individually interesting. In fact, I think the fact that they were green is probably the most noteworthy thing about them. I think this shows that boardgame pawns and miniature game models have different design requirements that FFG isn't fully taking into account.
(In their defense, I think some of RWM's heroes and monsters are pretty cool, but the rank and file is just mind numbingly boring).
As an Hard-core Warcraft Fan, the fact that they just don't bought the Warcraft license to make this a Warcraft Wargame just enrages me!
His desing its just totally Warcraft, just look at the humans swordmans and compare them with the typical Lordaeron or Stormwind Footman of Warcraft! Even the Human General its a carbon copy of Lord Othmar Garithos!
So, why rippof the cartoon-Warcraft aesthetic when you can just go totally and make a licensed product?
Wonderwolf wrote: Surprised they're not at least offering a pdf with rules (and printable dials?) for all the Descent miniatures out there.
They've done it before. In the past, the original Descent heroes (along with RuneWars and DungeonQuest) also had cards for RuneBound - and Descent 2E had an upgrade pack which included cards for all Terrinoth heroes released so far. But since RuneBound 3E, they stopped doing it, actually forcing players to rebuy Descent figures they may have already had to get their cards. RuneBound 3E and BattleLore 2E both seem dead now, so it seems like whatever benefits a cross-game setting like Terrinoth once offered no longer applies.
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Galas wrote: His desing its just totally Warcraft, just look at the humans swordmans and compare them with the typical Lordaeron or Stormwind Footman of Warcraft! Even the Human General its a carbon copy of Lord Othmar Garithos!
Runewars is to Warcraft as Warcraft is to Warhammer. What comes around, goes around, I guess.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I hate to be a critic, but the elves are just...too generic. There's absolutely nothing about them that is stand out. They could have at least gone for something other than the bog standard brown and green.
They are nice models, tbh, but yeah they aren't really "fresh". An issue I've seen for most of the presented factions (that is humans and elves) is that FFG seems to make choices of colour scheme even worse than GW's 'Eavy Metal guys. Humans would look more nicer with steel schemes not that gaudy blue and gold colours that make them look like the soldiers from stormwind.
I would be legimiately tempted to just replace everything with Heroscape pre-paints. :/
Definitely like the look of the new elves, although the treeman thing looks like it doesn't want to be there!
Promising though that there is news of the next new faction coming along, hopefully the army lists of the existing two will be padded out along the same time.
Galas wrote: His desing its just totally Warcraft, just look at the humans swordmans and compare them with the typical Lordaeron or Stormwind Footman of Warcraft! Even the Human General its a carbon copy of Lord Othmar Garithos!
Runewars is to Warcraft as Warcraft is to Warhammer. What comes around, goes around, I guess.
I'm not saying that to accuse Runewars of plagiarism. I just say that because... if you are gonna be basically the same, why don't just pay for a licensed product?
PD: I know, having more control abour your IP and all that...its just that I want a Warcraft wargame
That's a reasonable point in that, if FFG had the Warcraft license, it would certainly have had a marketing potential to a hell of a lot more customers.
Considering the supposed history of Warhammer/Warcraft, I'm actually amazed that it wasn't something that has happened..
There is a likelihood it was done with an original IP due to them just losing the GW IPs. A bit of being gun shy after seeing several product lines come to an abrupt halt.
Have to say, while the elves are fairly generic, for some reason I find them a bit more tolerable. Not exciting enough to get me to push this game, but enough that I could see myself getting into it if someone else I know does. Maybe it's because they have a more flattering paint scheme?
I actually like the aesthetic going on for the elves. There is a distinct lack of pretense there I find refreshing.
Just simple wood elves.
Good on them.
The only criticism is the same I have for everything based in terrinoth. And that is their ridiculous names for the fauna in that property. "Leonx"? Pfftt! Whatever. Just make it as obtuse and unintuitive as possible. Trust me, nobody is going to steal the names for your creations.
Pacific wrote: Definitely like the look of the new elves, although the treeman thing looks like it doesn't want to be there!
Promising though that there is news of the next new faction coming along, hopefully the army lists of the existing two will be padded out along the same time.
Apparently the rulebook has a "factions of the world" kind of section that contains info on 4 factions. The last one is something akin to Chaos (demon warped cultists).
They will soon be releasing the Mounted heroes and unit additions for the existing factions I believe. Also, the humans will likely pick up the elves since those archers can be hired with the hero in the starter and will give them some ranged attacks to work with.
I'm not saying that to accuse Runewars of plagiarism. I just say that because... if you are gonna be basically the same, why don't just pay for a licensed product?
PD: I know, having more control abour your IP and all that...its just that I want a Warcraft wargame
If the figs look like Warcraft to you than paint them as such and have at it! Don't let anyone tell you what universe your little guys are fighting in. As I said in my review earlier, I decide what figs to buy, what rules to use and what background to set my battles in.
As for the WoW IP, I would suggest that while WoW could defintiely bring along a new audience, the cost of such a license and the hassle of giving up alot of design control might well be prohibitive.
The mounted hero for the humans is what really gets me. That guy is just.... not... impressive. I don't think there's any fixing him with color scheme, which is a huge disappointment for me.
Doesn't come with the rules and though they are a free download it seems like it wouldn't have taken much to include them in the box. Does have the dice though so if you buy your minis and download the rules, this would be all that you need to play.
LunarSol wrote:
Apparently the rulebook has a "factions of the world" kind of section that contains info on 4 factions. The last one is something akin to Chaos (demon warped cultists).
The box has a "Lore Guide" booklet. It's nice enough and gives a bit of background and some pretty art, but as others have said it's nothing groundbreaking and not much detail. There are 3 pieces of fiction and each faction gets a two page piece of nice landscape art and 2-4 pages of background. A basic jumpstart into the runebound world.
As you say there is a Chaos-ish faction, the Uthak.
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LunarSol wrote: The mounted hero for the humans is what really gets me. That guy is just.... not... impressive. I don't think there's any fixing him with color scheme, which is a huge disappointment for me.
I'm of two minds about him. I'm not wowed, but not totally disapointed either. If I end up disgusted, I'll proxy in diffferent minis on the same bases.
$25 seems a bit steep when the army expansion is already $60. It makes the Elves cost $85, which is practically the cost for the base set ($100), which includes everything in the essentials pack plus two armies. Basically, Elves have to pay more to play the same game.
$25 seems a bit steep when the army expansion is already $60. It makes the Elves cost $85, which is practically the cost for the base set ($100), which includes everything in the essentials pack plus two armies. Basically, Elves have to pay more to play the same game.
True in almost all games with two player intro sets.
$25 seems a bit steep when the army expansion is already $60. It makes the Elves cost $85, which is practically the cost for the base set ($100), which includes everything in the essentials pack plus two armies. Basically, Elves have to pay more to play the same game.
True in almost all games with two player intro sets.
My thoughts exactly. I think it's nearly always true that you save money when you go with one of the factions in a starter set in any game you play. True for GW also, even though with GW you still have to buy codicies.
Sqorgar wrote: Basically, Elves have to pay more to play the same game.
True in almost all games with two player intro sets.
Well, it is more of a problem here because there are only three factions. It's hard to claim it is a discount when the majority of the factions are cheaper. Maybe once more factions are available, or the two base factions get their own army boxes individually, but right now, the Elves cost more than any other faction in the game.
Well, hopefully the elf set itself with have all the basic dials and such you need to run the army (amybe all that is needed is a set of litko movement templates). <edit> Wouldn't be surprised if the X-wing templates would actually work with this game. Morale deck may be the only other "needed" thing the elves doesn't come with, from the looks of the Essentials link.
Anyways, the elves was the faction I was looking forward to, I want to get it just for the lynx calvary alone.
Sqorgar wrote: Basically, Elves have to pay more to play the same game.
True in almost all games with two player intro sets.
Well, it is more of a problem here because there are only three factions. It's hard to claim it is a discount when the majority of the factions are cheaper. Maybe once more factions are available, or the two base factions get their own army boxes individually, but right now, the Elves cost more than any other faction in the game.
I think that FFG has hinted at another faciton to be released at the same time as the elves. The elf release is a ways off and FFG is releasing info at a quick pace, so it's probably to early to assume what will and won't be availble.
Sqorgar wrote: Basically, Elves have to pay more to play the same game.
True in almost all games with two player intro sets.
Well, it is more of a problem here because there are only three factions. It's hard to claim it is a discount when the majority of the factions are cheaper. Maybe once more factions are available, or the two base factions get their own army boxes individually, but right now, the Elves cost more than any other faction in the game.
I can't agree with that. A starter set is a starter set regardless of the number of factions with in the game. X-wing only had two factions for the longest time and the starter was cheaper, proportionally, than most any individual ship. Purchasing a larger amount of stuff is often going to result in bulk rates. Plus, as a two player game it can afford to be a bit of a loss leader to grow a player base. If none of that works, think of the elves as an expansion force until addition factions come out. I would hazard to guess that is why two player starter set even exist in the first place.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I can't agree with that. A starter set is a starter set regardless of the number of factions with in the game. X-wing only had two factions for the longest time and the starter was cheaper, proportionally, than most any individual ship. Purchasing a larger amount of stuff is often going to result in bulk rates. Plus, as a two player game it can afford to be a bit of a loss leader to grow a player base. If none of that works, think of the elves as an expansion force until addition factions come out. I would hazard to guess that is why two player starter set even exist in the first place.
Right now, FFG just doesn't have the options available for players to pick and choose which factions to play. For instance, if I wanted to play the Elves and the Humans, I'd have to buy the Undead too. And the Essentials Kit is expensive when you are just getting the Elves, but if the Humans were available as a separate kit, then each additional army box you buy won't require a second or third Essentials Kit, making it cheaper to pick up just the armies you want - but right now, only the Elves requires it. There will at least be a fourth faction (the red guys from BattleLore) by the end of the year according to the rumors.
I just think that FFG is approaching this miniatures game too much like they approach their boardgames. A "core" set and a bunch of big and small expansions - but I don't think a core set makes sense here, which is why they created the Essentials Kits. It's just a pared down core set that seems like an afterthought (it doesn't even have a real cover). Even the way their webpage/store is laid out like their board games, with all the unit expansions all jumbled together. That approach works with something like BattleLore, but I think it becomes a hindrance to a miniatures game - which requires a more organized, piecemeal approach. I like that FFG is going all in on the game (after BattleLore and Runebound, my faith in Terrinoth game support is not high), but I don't think they are willing to change their boardgame-centric approach for the game.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I can't agree with that. A starter set is a starter set regardless of the number of factions with in the game. X-wing only had two factions for the longest time and the starter was cheaper, proportionally, than most any individual ship. Purchasing a larger amount of stuff is often going to result in bulk rates. Plus, as a two player game it can afford to be a bit of a loss leader to grow a player base. If none of that works, think of the elves as an expansion force until addition factions come out. I would hazard to guess that is why two player starter set even exist in the first place.
Right now, FFG just doesn't have the options available for players to pick and choose which factions to play. For instance, if I wanted to play the Elves and the Humans, I'd have to buy the Undead too. And the Essentials Kit is expensive when you are just getting the Elves, but if the Humans were available as a separate kit, then each additional army box you buy won't require a second or third Essentials Kit, making it cheaper to pick up just the armies you want - but right now, only the Elves requires it. There will at least be a fourth faction (the red guys from BattleLore) by the end of the year according to the rumors.
I just think that FFG is approaching this miniatures game too much like they approach their boardgames. A "core" set and a bunch of big and small expansions - but I don't think a core set makes sense here, which is why they created the Essentials Kits. It's just a pared down core set that seems like an afterthought (it doesn't even have a real cover). Even the way their webpage/store is laid out like their board games, with all the unit expansions all jumbled together. That approach works with something like BattleLore, but I think it becomes a hindrance to a miniatures game - which requires a more organized, piecemeal approach. I like that FFG is going all in on the game (after BattleLore and Runebound, my faith in Terrinoth game support is not high), but I don't think they are willing to change their boardgame-centric approach for the game.
By the time the elves are available, you will be able to buy the human units individually, BTW. I can't find the link at the moment (its in one of their news articles discussing Rune wars), but they will be selling army units by themselves (such as the human cavalry).
Sqorgar wrote: Right now, FFG just doesn't have the options available for players to pick and choose which factions to play. For instance, if I wanted to play the Elves and the Humans, I'd have to buy the Undead too. And the Essentials Kit is expensive when you are just getting the Elves, but if the Humans were available as a separate kit, then each additional army box you buy won't require a second or third Essentials Kit, making it cheaper to pick up just the armies you want - but right now, only the Elves requires it. There will at least be a fourth faction (the red guys from BattleLore) by the end of the year according to the rumors.
Until proven otherwise, I'd work on the assumption that you'll likely need one of everything of every faction if you want to play with half a chance in FFG-sponsored events, let alone tournaments.
That's how it worked in Imperial Assault Skirmish, X-Wing, etc..
Back in the day, people bought 2 or 3 Lambda Shuttles just for Advanced Sensors. FFG got people not necessary interested in X-Wing scum ships to buy into the X-Wing scum faction by stuffing it with the latest, hottest power-creep at the time like Autothrusters, etc... They got people not necessarily interested in X-Wing Epic play to buy pricey giant ships solely for the most powerful Astromechs or the Palpatine card. Etc..
I don't see why FFG would be changing this hard-core-rules-monetization-business-model with this game. You can probably skip it, if you just play at a club, etc.., But, at least in the past, FFG official events is what drives a lot of FFG miniatures-based games (and a few non-miniatures games with an active scene such as Android Netrunner).
You wont need to buy an Elves expansion to get an Undead upgrade. This has been stated and rehashed for months now.
We've already seen neutral upgrades appear in expansion sets for Humans and Undead, so that isn't a concern either.
It appears that FFG is diverting from it's usual tactics slightly for this game.
However, I have noticed that unique terrain is appearing in the Hero expansions for the various factions, and it wouldn't surprise me if you needed those for tournaments matches, similar to how you need certain map tiles and scenario cards to compete in IA.
WUWU wrote: You wont need to buy an Elves expansion to get an Undead upgrade. This has been stated and rehashed for months now.
We've already seen neutral upgrades appear in expansion sets for Humans and Undead, so that isn't a concern either.
It appears that FFG is diverting from it's usual tactics slightly for this game.
However, I have noticed that unique terrain is appearing in the Hero expansions for the various factions, and it wouldn't surprise me if you needed those for tournaments matches, similar to how you need certain map tiles and scenario cards to compete in IA.
But what they do is make you double extra just for some new cards.
Such as the undead swordsmen in the core have some different upgrade then the solo pack of swordsmen. Even if its just a few, they will do that to force you to buy the extra box if you want all the options. They do the same thing in x wing.
I own a nearly literal ton of fantasy miniatures from decades in WHFB so it's nice that they have a templates option. So now it's looking like a $25 (less at inevitable discount) plus printing to play the game with my existing miniatures. If I like it enough, I can buy their miniatures later if not, I'll just be out $25 and I've wasted much more than that on Deadzone which I only played once before tossing the lot in the trash after it sat unused in my nerd closet for an eternity.
I really can't get into a game with a billion tokens. It makes set up and tear down a lot longer than it needs to be and keeping track of all the tokens is a monumental pain.
auticus wrote: I really can't get into a game with a billion tokens. It makes set up and tear down a lot longer than it needs to be and keeping track of all the tokens is a monumental pain.
I play a ton of FFG games. I throw the tokens into a small organizer like you'd get at a craft of hardware store and set it next to the game board. Boom. Set up complete. Keeping track of the tokens is usually trivial as you pull one out of the organizer and set it next to the appropriate unit. When you use the token, you pick it up and put it back in the organizer. At the end of the game, you close the organizer lid. Boom. Tear down complete.
If you're drowning in tokens, you're probably doing it wrong.
Get something like this, in whatever size you need. I have a small one for X-Wing and a bigger one for Descent (more tokens).
It's more the visual intrusion of having all those things on the tabletop that's the issue for me. It's a problem (IMO) with X-Wing, moreso with Armada and now this.
I play a ton of FFG games. I throw the tokens into a small organizer like you'd get at a craft of hardware store and set it next to the game board. Boom. Set up complete. Keeping track of the tokens is usually trivial as you pull one out of the organizer and set it next to the appropriate unit. When you use the token, you pick it up and put it back in the organizer. At the end of the game, you close the organizer lid. Boom. Tear down complete.
If you're drowning in tokens, you're probably doing it wrong.
FFG just has a component bloat problem. Imperial Assault has a half dozen different types of tokens, six or seven different decks of cards (in two sizes), larger hero cards, two dozen cardboard map tiles, a bunch of miniatures, stickers (optional), three different instruction books (not to mention each expansion having its own separate instruction page to maintain), and probably something else I forgot. It's just a pile of stuff, and I spend more time taking it all out of the box, organizing it into piles, selecting the relevant game bits, and doing it again in reverse at the end than I actually spend playing the game. They give you a sign for what kind of card sleeves you need on the box, but they really need to tell you what kind of Plano boxes you need. Whenever I plan to get a FFG game, I also budget in plastic organizers for the tokens. I actually buy them in bulk and can tell you which models are best for each game.
There are a lot of FFG games that I just adore, like Arkham Horror LCG or Runebound 3E, but there's no doubt that FFG has a clutter problem. When I get a game fully out on the table, I feel like a hoarder.
auticus wrote: Precisely. I look at this game and see the same issue. I just can't have fun in a system like that.
See, I actually consider 40k to be far more cumbersome. I need to transport tons of models (many of which are fiddly and prone to breakage), dice, measuring tapes, templates, terrain, and potentially a half dozen or more rule books per army.
X-Wing has a ton of components and I own most of them with multiples of some... and it all fits into a large Plano storage case.
Armada has a ton of components and I own most of them with multiples of some... and it all fits into a large Plano storage case.
Descent... you get the idea.
FFG games may have more small bits, but they tend to be much easier to carry around. 40k definitely has some nice case options, but they can be very costly and generally insufficient to carry more than one army at a time.
With proper storage, games like X-Wing or Armada are very "grab and go". If you have a prepped list, you can just grab the case, meet a friend anywhere with an appropriate table and be playing within 5-10 min of showing up. 40k isn't very grab and go, especially if you're in a situation where you need to bring terrain. My local store has flat tables available with no real terrain options. Sure, I can play there, but I rarely do because it's such a pain to lug everything in. Setup takes forever. Tear down takes forever. 40k almost requires that you have an ongoing table situation where terrain is stored next to the table and you're really just moving armies and rules around.
AndrewGPaul wrote: It's more the visual intrusion of having all those things on the tabletop that's the issue for me. It's a problem (IMO) with X-Wing, moreso with Armada and now this.
I think that the sight of collected Star Destroyers, Rebel frigates and the like on a star-map type board is one of the most impressive looking things that you'll see in wargaming! It's easily achievable as well with the pre-paints, and contrasts with the hordes of unpainted plastics and poor quality terrain that you seem to see as a mainstay on a lot of other gaming boards (although realise this probably changes from place to place).
I don't think having some tokens/cards on the board creates that much of an impact, if the rest of the game looks so damned fine (and it helps facilitate a solid game mechanic). Although, again realise this is a personal thing!
Kriswall wrote:
See, I actually consider 40k to be far more cumbersome. I need to transport tons of models (many of which are fiddly and prone to breakage), dice, measuring tapes, templates, terrain, and potentially a half dozen or more rule books per army.
Can't speak for 40k, but with Warmachine, all the non-model stuff fit inside a medium sized pencil case for me. Granted, unit cards take up considerably less room than codices. And if we're talking about Runewars, then you still need to transport tons of models in addition to whatever deckboxes and plano boxes you need for the rest of the game.
X-Wing has a ton of components and I own most of them with multiples of some... and it all fits into a large Plano storage case.
Armada has a ton of components and I own most of them with multiples of some... and it all fits into a large Plano storage case.
Descent... you get the idea.
The only case that will fit all of Descent is a suitcase.
With proper storage, games like X-Wing or Armada are very "grab and go". If you have a prepped list, you can just grab the case, meet a friend anywhere with an appropriate table and be playing within 5-10 min of showing up. 40k isn't very grab and go, especially if you're in a situation where you need to bring terrain. My local store has flat tables available with no real terrain options. Sure, I can play there, but I rarely do because it's such a pain to lug everything in. Setup takes forever. Tear down takes forever. 40k almost requires that you have an ongoing table situation where terrain is stored next to the table and you're really just moving armies and rules around.
When I play Infinity at home (which is small and not optimally set up for gaming), I have to set up some folding tables, grab a gaming mat, take terrain from my shelves to set up the board, get out my models and tokens, and grab my army lists - and it still takes less time to set up than Imperial Assault. The only really time consuming part of it is rolling up the damn neoprene mat and getting it into its bag. It's like trying to put a too-small condom on the world's largest, floppiest dong. I doubt Runewars will approach anything like Imperial Assault's set up time, but having a lot of pieces to sort through can greatly lengthen the set up time of games, and not in a fun or entertaining way, like setting up your terrain.
Pacific wrote:I think that the sight of collected Star Destroyers, Rebel frigates and the like on a star-map type board is one of the most impressive looking things that you'll see in wargaming!
But you have an Infinity sig! There's a no more impressive sight in wargaming than a fully loaded Infinity table - even the cardstock terrain that comes with Icestorm.
Just going to echo those who say that the management of tokens in Runewars isn't a big deal. I'm generally not a fan of tokens, but when I played, the actual use of the tokens was fast and straitforward. I've already got mine in a small case and they're easy to access.
I recommend cheap "bead" cases from craft shops. I prefer the ones with rounded bottoms for easy piece removal and without removable separations as there is less likleyhood of mixing contents.
auticus wrote: I really can't get into a game with a billion tokens. It makes set up and tear down a lot longer than it needs to be and keeping track of all the tokens is a monumental pain.
Always makes me stop and pause before buying one of FFG's board games.
Eilif wrote: Just going to echo those who say that the management of tokens in Runewars isn't a big deal. I'm generally not a fan of tokens, but when I played, the actual use of the tokens was fast and straitforward. I've already got mine in a small case and they're easy to access.
I recommend cheap "bead" cases from craft shops. I prefer the ones with rounded bottoms for easy piece removal and without removable separations as there is less likleyhood of mixing contents.
Yup. A small organizer, and put the command tools to the side with the unit cards, and there goes a lot of the fuss and clutter that this game would seem to have on first viewing. Still trying to figure out what to do about the jigsaw base edges, as those are the last really "Gamey" looking pieces.
The real setup time with these other games are the map tiles. I still have not found a great way to store and then quickly set it up on the fly during sessions. Definitely an issue myself and many others have.
The tokens and setup in x wing, armada, and now Runewars though is a breeze compared to games like 40k, WFB, etc... the trick is to store them in some sort of compartmentalized storage system. You pull it out for a game, grab components as you need, and throw them back in when you're done. Assuming you ah e your list/ships ready to go before a game, it takes moments.
The sheer number of tokens that FFG traditionally provides is maybe daunting sometimes, but in reality many games use just as many conditions and modifiers. Virtually no game is exempt of these and It just happens that FFG provides suitable counters in their games instead of leaving it to the players to make do with pieces of paper, third party tokens or just remembering them if they're something like a short term bonus which would be resolved immediately.
AndrewGPaul wrote: It's more the visual intrusion of having all those things on the tabletop that's the issue for me. It's a problem (IMO) with X-Wing, moreso with Armada and now this.
I think that the sight of collected Star Destroyers, Rebel frigates and the like on a star-map type board is one of the most impressive looking things that you'll see in wargaming! It's easily achievable as well with the pre-paints, and contrasts with the hordes of unpainted plastics and poor quality terrain that you seem to see as a mainstay on a lot of other gaming boards (although realise this probably changes from place to place).
I don't think having some tokens/cards on the board creates that much of an impact, if the rest of the game looks so damned fine (and it helps facilitate a solid game mechanic). Although, again realise this is a personal thing!
Like I said, it's a personal issue; it's the counters, and the dials, and (especially) the thick bases with all those little wheels on them. Compare that to, say, Full Thrust, where the ship is on a black or clear base. It's not a problem for everyone, but it is for me. As is the fact that one heavy cruiser, some escorts and half a dozen fighter wings isn't a proper "armada".
CoreCommander wrote: The sheer number of tokens that FFG traditionally provides is maybe daunting sometimes, but in reality many games use just as many conditions and modifiers. Virtually no game is exempt of these and It just happens that FFG provides suitable counters in their games instead of leaving it to the players to make do with pieces of paper, third party tokens or just remembering them if they're something like a short term bonus which would be resolved immediately.
This appears to be the case for many of the tokens, and at least they don't have some giant "first player" token like FFG likes to wedge into all their games. Something like Warmachine requires focus tokens and, until recently, didn't include any (get your own damn glass beads, you peasant). So, FFG is providing a service that other mini games don't, while simultaneously being criticized for it.
That being said, the movement templates and unit dials just seem unwieldy to me, and take up a lot of room. Maybe that's why the field is only 6x3'' instead of 6'x4' - that extra foot on your table is for storing tokens.
Sqorgar wrote: Maybe that's why the field is only 6x3'' instead of 6'x4' - that extra foot on your table is for storing tokens.
I wondered myself if this smaller size might be intentional for game paraphenalia. No so much for tokens, -which are easily stored in a plastic organizer- but for the unit and upgrade cards which could easily stretch a good portion of the length of the table.
I saw some X-wing (or was it Armada..) games at Adepticon with this sort of table-long card layouts.
I wondered myself if this smaller size might be intentional for game paraphenalia. No so much for tokens, -which are easily stored in a plastic organizer- but for the unit and upgrade cards which could easily stretch a good portion of the length of the table.
The most likely answer is that they did it because they sell 3'x3' neoprene mats, and you can put both of them together to make the 6'x3' field. They've made a bunch of playmats for their other games, and I don't think any of them are larger than 3' in any direction. Could be a limitation of their printing process, or it may be a shipping thing, since Miniature Market charges separate shipping for large playmats?
In slightly related news, they announced a new expansion for Terrinoth-based Runebound, so my bitter animosity towards Runewars has shrunk a bit. A rising tide raises all boats? Maybe there is hope for more BattleLore too.
I wondered myself if this smaller size might be intentional for game paraphenalia. No so much for tokens, -which are easily stored in a plastic organizer- but for the unit and upgrade cards which could easily stretch a good portion of the length of the table.
The most likely answer is that they did it because they sell 3'x3' neoprene mats, and you can put both of them together to make the 6'x3' field. They've made a bunch of playmats for their other games, and I don't think any of them are larger than 3' in any direction. Could be a limitation of their printing process, or it may be a shipping thing, since Miniature Market charges separate shipping for large playmats?
In slightly related news, they announced a new expansion for Terrinoth-based Runebound, so my bitter animosity towards Runewars has shrunk a bit. A rising tide raises all boats? Maybe there is hope for more BattleLore too.
Yeah, that could well be the reason for the size. I'll probably have enough terrain on the table that 4x5 might be a better size, but I'm flexible.
It would be nice if FFG continued to support all the games that are set in Terrinoth. I'm sure they could get some crossover benefit that way. I bought all the Battletlore 2nd edition stuff except for the neutral mini boosters just in case, but even with Runewars on my plate, I'd probably buy more Battlelore stuff if it comes out. Some would disagree but the two games fill very different niches in my gaming.
FFG put up a Waiqar the Undying army painting guide, which focuses exclusively on the Army Painter quickshade dipping meathod. I've never tried dipping myself, but I understand you can get decent results quickly - this may be FFG's secret plan to win over boardgamers to the painting lifestyle. It's not a bad plan, honestly.
I used to dip. It works well and is basically a heavy wash. Really the main reason I stopped was that I found it messy and that applying a wash with a brush gave me better control and less mess, but some of my dipped models actually look better than some of my early washes.
You can also brush on the dip (varnish), but that's what I do with my washes, anyway. ObPlug: Army Painter will have its Quickshade Ink wash set increased by three washes with their June 2017 release!
I'm starting to think (shoulda noticed earlier!) that FFG isn't going after the Dakka hobby miniatures market, which demands high-quality sculpts and paints to at least tabletop, but usually higher. They're going after tabletop-only painters, or those who don't care for the painting hobby. Which is reasonable, considering how crowded the hobby miniatures market already is.
However, of course, CMON's GoT miniatures are coming soon, and, with their colored unpainted miniatures that don't need assembly, may cater *more* to this niche-within-a-niche-within-a-niche audience.
The brush dip method is more than just a wash. If used properly and over lighter under colors it will:
-Darken the recesses
-Gives a pseudo highlight effect as it falls away from the higher edges.
-the "shade" effect which is a function of the thickness of the polyurethane settling over the model.
-Adds a layer of polyurethane that is a thicker than a regular varnish adding a strong layer of protection.
I brush-dip pretty much everything but I'm considering trying the emersion method for the 32 Daqan Spearmen that are on my desk now.
As to the style and paintability of the figures I think FFG have taken a rather smart approach but I'll have a blog post up shortly with my thoughts on that.
If you paint to put stuff on a table quickly and effectively...dip is fantastic. If you want to spend a lot of time painting to a higher standard, don't bother with it.
Here's a step-by-step example of using it on simple (sometimes poor looking) block painting. I can do a squad in an evening pretty easily. I could achieve an equal or better result painting everything meticulously by hand...but screw that noise.
I'm starting to think (shoulda noticed earlier!) that FFG isn't going after the Dakka hobby miniatures market, which demands high-quality sculpts and paints to at least tabletop, but usually higher. They're going after tabletop-only painters, or those who don't care for the painting hobby. Which is reasonable, considering how crowded the hobby miniatures market already is.
Maybe they are going after the Dakka market. I'm already invested in two miniature games, and with how long it takes me to paint the models, I really can't add anything new to my plate. But a miniatures game with miniatures that I don't love and don't want to lavish with special attention painting every detail - a bunch of miniatures I don't feel guilty for half assing, basically - well, maybe I can find the time for that.
Runewars just won't be a hardcore miniature gamer's primary game. It just lacks a bunch of things that the bigger games have (monthly releases, variety, quality, fandom magazines, novels, etc). But maybe it isn't trying to be a miniature gamer's primary game. Maybe it is happy with being a third or fourth game, hoping that elevating a larger board game audience can make up for the lowered enthusiasm and popularity by the Dakka crowd. The Dakka crowd makes the game look good, even when half assing it, which makes the board gamers look up to the game and its hobby possibilities (while not greatly participating).
I'm worried that FFG will abandon it prematurely (as they have with some of their other games that I loved) and I'm concerned that it will be closer on the spectrum to Warmachine (more board game than miniature game, with flat terrain and unpainted figures being used by hyper competitive players who find the hobby element an inconvenience to min-max list building). That being said, just the idea that the game doesn't have to be a chore because I don't have to care as much... man, does that make me shallow?
I'm starting to think (shoulda noticed earlier!) that FFG isn't going after the Dakka hobby miniatures market, which demands high-quality sculpts and paints to at least tabletop, but usually higher. They're going after tabletop-only painters, or those who don't care for the painting hobby. Which is reasonable, considering how crowded the hobby miniatures market already is.
Maybe they are going after the Dakka market. I'm already invested in two miniature games, and with how long it takes me to paint the models, I really can't add anything new to my plate. But a miniatures game with miniatures that I don't love and don't want to lavish with special attention painting every detail - a bunch of miniatures I don't feel guilty for half assing, basically - well, maybe I can find the time for that.
...
...
That being said, just the idea that the game doesn't have to be a chore because I don't have to care as much... man, does that make me shallow?
This is an old topic you're brushing there. Miniatures in miniature games were meant to be game pieces in the beginning, but with the advances in technology and the ability to cram more detail into a miniature (provided you make it big enough for it to count) some companies (company,,,) have made the push to transform some gamers into atleast part modellers. This way they can stay interested in the new and obligatory better quality releases which every company must put out in order to stay alive. It is no longer enough to just paint your minies for a reasonable period of time, these days care must be taken to highlight every detail of a miniature otherwise you're basically losing your investment in expensive high detail miniatures... which is basically what all companies are striving for today. If you're going to put intentionally something of inferiour quality, but cheaper and easier to put together, you're going to get pointed at and publicly shamed. I know that I can't be the only one that hasn't been able to paint something in a given time window just because I felt guilty that I'm not doing the miniature justice (like I'm obliged to an inanimate object somehow....).
If FFG are going that route, against the current flow, I'm all for it (the prices kind of stymie their effort though...)
If you're interested further in the topic of being slave to your miniatures I recommend reading the following two (the second one being a later and expanded version of the first). It deals with historical miniatures mostly and the main conflict is bigger vs smaller, but I found a lot of stuff that rung true for me there.
Lin 1 - plain text page Link 2 - newer & expanded, also plain text
Runewars just won't be a hardcore miniature gamer's primary game. It just lacks a bunch of things that the bigger games have (monthly releases, variety, quality, fandom magazines, novels, etc). But maybe it isn't trying to be a miniature gamer's primary game. Maybe it is happy with being a third or fourth game, hoping that elevating a larger board game audience can make up for the lowered enthusiasm and popularity by the Dakka crowd. The Dakka crowd makes the game look good, even when half assing it, which makes the board gamers look up to the game and its hobby possibilities (while not greatly participating).
I'm worried that FFG will abandon it prematurely (as they have with some of their other games that I loved) ...
The game isn't out yet - think we should probably wait for the release and news on subsequent releases (as well as the quantity/quality of those) before commenting that it is sub-par. And obviously all the other paraphernalia that builds up around that (fan-fiction, magazines & novels etc.) will only come later - think that Infinity is only just getting around to fictions (with the Manga) and universe expansion with the forthcoming RPG, and that has had many years of being a popular game with a decent following.
Hellfury wrote: I actually like the aesthetic going on for the elves. There is a distinct lack of pretense there I find refreshing.
Just simple wood elves.
Good on them.
The only criticism is the same I have for everything based in terrinoth. And that is their ridiculous names for the fauna in that property. "Leonx"? Pfftt! Whatever. Just make it as obtuse and unintuitive as possible. Trust me, nobody is going to steal the names for your creations.
Have you read the name of the fourth faction? It's an even bigger worse stretch. You're absolutely right. non-intuitive tongue twisters are actually a turn-off when trying to promote a game to someone.
The game isn't out yet - think we should probably wait for the release and news on subsequent releases (as well as the quantity/quality of those) before commenting that it is sub-par. And obviously all the other paraphernalia that builds up around that (fan-fiction, magazines & novels etc.) will only come later - think that Infinity is only just getting around to fictions (with the Manga) and universe expansion with the forthcoming RPG, and that has had many years of being a popular game with a decent following.
Didn't say that the game was subpar (though the models don't reach the high standard of GW, Corvus Belli, or Wyrd), just that it lacked a lot of the all encompassing lifestyle elements that other miniature games have. I doubt FFG will do much with it either, as Terrinoth is almost 20 years old and the fluff is still boring as crap and FFG has far more popular games (like X-Wing and Descent), so if they were going to do a hobby magazine, they would've done it already.
(Also, Infinity had lots of fluff in the core books that accompany the rulebooks, and in the stuff like Campaign Paradiso - Terrinoth has had a dozen games and I doubt anyone outside of FFG could tell you anything other than the hero names from Descent).
Hellfury wrote: I actually like the aesthetic going on for the elves. There is a distinct lack of pretense there I find refreshing.
Just simple wood elves.
Good on them.
The only criticism is the same I have for everything based in terrinoth. And that is their ridiculous names for the fauna in that property. "Leonx"? Pfftt! Whatever. Just make it as obtuse and unintuitive as possible. Trust me, nobody is going to steal the names for your creations.
Have you read the name of the fourth faction? It's an even bigger worse stretch. You're absolutely right. non-intuitive tongue twisters are actually a turn-off when trying to promote a game to someone.
I think it has to do with experience. Over the last 30 years, I've seen a lot of games attempt to draw you in with their own distinct naming structures. But they always fail because people aren't interested in unique names. They are interested in unique and engaging backgrounds. FFG seems to think that unique names are sufficient, but they have the cart before the horse there.
Obviously some people enjoy the background of terrinoth, as I have known some rather vehement defenders. But I am of the opinion that such defense arises from bias born of consumption. Post purchase rationalization cognitive bias. Terrinoth background isn't objectively bad, but the lack of it sticking for a large portion of gamers over the past 15 years means it isn't objectively good either. And instead of FFG admitting such, they stick with it in the hopes that more people will buy into it.
It might work, but I believe there are enough casual non vocal critics to think it likely won't, especially after this length of time.
But from personal experience, I know Christian Peterson is stubborn as hell in the face of even the most gentle constructive criticism, so there will never be change for terrinoth.
Yeah, I played Descent for years and sadly never acquired a sense that the world it took place in had any identity. It was just a collection of generic tropes for the purpose of playing a game with familiar tropes.
I still haven't watched the videos, but have also not had any great desire to start this game system. Cost, quality of figs and the setting are all lost on me. But just in case anyone was ready to board this train, Miniaturemarket.com just got them today $84.99.
With the previews of the upcoming shadespire for AOS, I think I'll wait to fill my undead need.
This is an old topic you're brushing there. Miniatures in miniature games were meant to be game pieces in the beginning, but with the advances in technology and the ability to cram more detail into a miniature (provided you make it big enough for it to count) some companies (company,,,) have made the push to transform some gamers into atleast part modellers. This way they can stay interested in the new and obligatory better quality releases which every company must put out in order to stay alive. It is no longer enough to just paint your minies for a reasonable period of time, these days care must be taken to highlight every detail of a miniature otherwise you're basically losing your investment in expensive high detail miniatures... which is basically what all companies are striving for today. If you're going to put intentionally something of inferiour quality, but cheaper and easier to put together, you're going to get pointed at and publicly shamed. I know that I can't be the only one that hasn't been able to paint something in a given time window just because I felt guilty that I'm not doing the miniature justice (like I'm obliged to an inanimate object somehow....).
I am glad people are bringing this up, because I see it keeping some people out of the hobby (I hear plent of people bemoaning that their paint jobs will never look like what they see in White Dwarf, so they just don't ever get started).
The models in Runewars are just like those in WHFB - if they aren't characters, they're wound counters for units. So let's not begin to make each and every model a work of art, when you have to paint up 16 of them at a time.
I actually miss the days when the miniatures were usually metal, with one or mayyyyybe two pieces, sculpted along a relatively flat plane as required by the limits of metal casting. They didn't take hours to assemble, didn't take ages to paint, and weren't loaded up with details you aren't going to see anyway at a distance of 3-4' when they're actually on the table.
Some of the RuneWars models were a persnickety pain - the spearmen and archers mostly. But most of the skeletons were in two pieces and fit together easily, and the Rune Golem was a pleasant 10 seconds or so.
ced1106 wrote: You can also brush on the dip (varnish), but that's what I do with my washes, anyway. ObPlug: Army Painter will have its Quickshade Ink wash set increased by three washes with their June 2017 release!
I'm starting to think (shoulda noticed earlier!) that FFG isn't going after the Dakka hobby miniatures market, which demands high-quality sculpts and paints to at least tabletop, but usually higher. They're going after tabletop-only painters, or those who don't care for the painting hobby. Which is reasonable, considering how crowded the hobby miniatures market already is.
However, of course, CMON's GoT miniatures are coming soon, and, with their colored unpainted miniatures that don't need assembly, may cater *more* to this niche-within-a-niche-within-a-niche audience.
I'm a bare minimum painter and brush on the varnish instead of the dip and flick method; same results, less mess but I have to keep a supply of largish, disposable brushes about for it. RW and like games are right up my alley, more so than GW. I have zero interest in the hobby aspects of gaming and just like a good, fun game rather than buying ornate, highly detailed models.
Am pleasantly surprised by how nice they look with the army painter guide - maybe they gave them such a simple, cartoony design with quick painting techniques in mind?
With such small unit sizes and army painter stuff, you could probably paint the whole starting force in like 2 hours or so.
