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Post by: Aeneades
 MDSW wrote:At first I asked, "Why on Earth would you not have additional troops available as add-ons - just dice and trees?" What if I wanted more basic troops, like Stark Bannermen or Lannister Guards, etc.
But, then it dawned on me... If you want to bolster your force, you are going to have to pay retail on those, boys...
If you want both Stark and Lannister then the best bet may be for pledging for an additional copy of the game if they add at least 3 more additional units as stretch goals after the dogs.
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Post by: frankelee
MDSW wrote:At first I asked, "Why on Earth would you not have additional troops available as add-ons - just dice and trees?" What if I wanted more basic troops, like Stark Bannermen or Lannister Guards, etc.
But, then it dawned on me... If you want to bolster your force, you are going to have to pay retail on those, boys...
If they let me bid $1 and make the troop units available to purchase before the end of the KS, then I'm in.
Until, then, I'm out.
Anyone know the scale? Is it 28mm?
You gotta remember they're around 10% of the way through their stretch goals, and probably 10% of their add-ons right now. I think CMON's weird insistence on secrecy is now hurting them from a sales perspective, but at least I know what's coming, so there's no reason to start talking like this is it. Even if the tease is a bit dragged out.
Green Horde had 180-ish minis when it was all done, and it only costs $120. Probably you'll have nearly 100 men a side when it's all done.
And the minis are 32mm, aka 28 mm heroic, aka the same generally size as GW, the new Runewars Miniatures, etc.
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Post by: Pacific
Yes 32mm is very much the new 28mm (if that makes any sense!)
They've got some cracking artists working on their studio miniatures. Some pics and text from the latest update.
We also rendered a few shots of the pieces of the Woodland Terrain Set next to the the miniatures for a scale comparison:
VICTORY THROUGH VALOR
Unlike the dishonorable tactics employed by House Lannister, Starks do not resort to such things as bribery, manipulation, and subterfuge. When they win, it is through raw combat prowess and superior battlefield tactics! This is exemplified by the cards in their Tactics Deck, which we will go over in detail in a later update. For now though, the important things to remember is our strength lies in Combat and Maneuverability.
Combat: Starks excel at Combat tactics. Their deck features many abilities to buff their strikes, making them hit harder, deal more damage, and cause more negatives to the enemy. Cards like the namesake Winter is Coming allows them to make enemies Vulnerable, while The North Remembers and Devastating Impact enhance their already fearsome attacks above and beyond. As not to say they're not without tricks as well! Last Stand is sure to be a nasty surprise to enemies who thought they had them beat!
Maneuverability: Proper positioning, as any good commander will tell you, is one of the most important aspects to winning a battle, and it is one of their strongest advantages. While they don't have the fancy armor that the Southern Armies might have, they prefer their speed and maneuverability over being bogged down by heavy plate! Tactical Regroup allows them to rally units to better positions, while cards like Devastating Impact turn their expert mobility into an offensive weapon! Remember: charging headlong into the enemy may win them a victory or two, but knowing when to hit their flanks, when to retreat and regroup, and when to strike them down will serve you better than raw aggression!
With that being said, let us take a look at their loyal bannermen!
*Please note that all cards are subject to change before final release. This is not only limited to graphics but also gameplay content and stats as units pass through playtest and development cycles!
STARK SWORN SWORDS
The first of our troops, the House Stark Sworn Swords make up the bulk of our forces. With a decent Speed of 5 the Sworn Swords will be able to get where they need to go relatively quickly. Unfortunately they pay for this by being outfitted with only light chainmail and shields, giving them a 5+ Defense value. Their morale is average by all accounts, as while these men are loyal to our cause they are not fanatics.
What we do have, however, is better combat prowess! While the southerners enjoy their warm climates and relative safety we in the north are a heartier lot - having experienced the dangers our lands provide firsthand. This translates over to a respectable 8 Attack dice at max ranks... and any other time we want it as well! This is accomplished by our Stark Fury special ability, which allows us to push beyond normal limits and press the attack when we really need it. It will result in our unit taking some casualties, but we must be willing to sacrifice for a cause greater than ourselves if it means taking down the enemy!
Sworn Swords also enjoy the Banding special ability, allowing multiple units of Sworn Swords to combine together, upping their capabilities all the more by giving them a commanding 3+ to Hit. Not bad for the "basic" troop of our house! Better still, doubling the number of men in our ranks allows us to maintain that combat edge even longer. Of course, more men also means that the cost of Stark Fury is lowered as well. We don't want to view our loyal soldiers as just another "resource", but sometimes sacrifices must be made!
STARK OUTRIDERS
Development Commentary: Some of you might notice the "Swift Advance" rule shown on the Outriders here directly mimics the rule book saying that all Cavalry get a free Maneuver at the start of their activation. In an effort to actually remove as many "hidden rules" as possible, and keep all a unit's information on their card, that effect was actually integrated into the Ability and removed as a "generic rule". The more you know!
Our Outriders act as scouts for the majority of our forces- but don't let this fool you! They are every bit as deadly in combat as they are cunning.
Given that they are mounted, they enjoy the benefits of the Swift Advance ability, which gives them a free Maneuver action at the start of their activation. This means the unit could, for example, Maneuver and then March (covering a staggering 18 inches in a single activation) or, more to my personal liking, Maneuver into the Flank of an enemy and then declare a Charge. It's important to remember that the area you impact is determined when the charge action is declared, so being able to position yourself into a Flank can absolutely devastate a unit.
Past this, the Outriders enjoy an 8 Attack Die profile as well as a 3+ to Hit value. This is already impressive, but factor in that, given your speed and maneuvering capabilities, you should be hitting enemy Flanks and you have a truly nasty surprise for your opponents!
Charge Bonus: Re-roll attacks (noting, again, 8 attack dice hitting on 3+
Flank Bonus: Enemy suffers [-1] to Defense Saves
Just don't go charging directly into an enemy... While you'll deal some decent damage, you really have no excuse for not taking advantage of your speed. Another factor to remember is that, while the Outriders do have 2 Resilience, meaning they only lose a model for every 2 wounds they suffer, their save is still only a 5+. Outriders absolutely do not want to get stuck in prolonged engagements! If this happens then the unit is as good as dead!
...Luckily, we have the Hit and Run ability, which allows us to leave combat via a free Retreat action. We must remember that if we start engaged we can't make use of our Swift Advance ability (as you cannot Maneuver while engaged), but Hit and Run allows us to Retreat for free, which means we could, for example, fall back and immediately Charge right back into the fight, making this ability useful for both Defense as well as Offense!
Just don't let yourself get bogged down, and don't send the Outriders alone against something they can't handle. Remember that they are a harassment unit- there is no shame in charging in, weakening an enemy, and then falling back to repeat the process. This will prove not only beneficial for you, but incredibly frustrating to your enemies!
UMBER BERSERKERS
Ok, now we're taking a look at our serious guns... err, axes.
No enemy wants to look across the battlefield and see a grouping of House Umber Berserkers. No one. Berserkers are fast, enjoying a staggering 6 Speed. Berserkers also don't much care about such petty concept as "fear" or "bribery"- their 5+ Morale Value speaks to that (as not to say they can't be effected by such things... It's just going to take a lot of effort on the enemy).
We haven't even touched on their combat capabilities yet... And that's where Berserkers get really scary. Ok, so they have a 3+ to Hit and eight attack dice. Not a bad start. But if we look at their Attack profile we see they actually gain more dice as they lose ranks. Moving all the way up to ten attack dice when they only have one remaining rank.
That's not good for any enemy... But it gets so much worse.
They also have the Sundering special ability, allowing them to cut through enemy armor. Hit someone from the Flank and that enemy is going to suffer a staggering [-2] to Defense Saves! Even Lannister Guards with their staggeringly tough 3+ Defense Save will be sliced to ribbons by Berserkers on the Flank!
Finally, we have their Berserker Rage ability, which states if they are activated by [SWORDS] (which usually allows the unit 1 free Attack action) they can instead Charge. What this means is the unit could, hypothetically, charge an enemy, wipe them out, re-position themselves and then be activated by [SWORDS], granting them an additional charge action, potentially into someone's Flank or Rear. Absolutely devastating.
Perhaps the best application of Berserkers, however, is the psychological impact they bring- they are a no-win-situation for your foes. They're going to have to deal with them eventually, either by attacking them on their own, which will only serve to make them stronger, or try to avoid them, and we have the advantage on speed and maneuverability, so they won't be able to run forever... and even if they try, you're now controlling the flow of the battle, and that is in itself a victory.
BONUS: GREY WIND
Grey Wind here is a bit of a cheat, since he really isn't a full combat unit. When Robb Stark is in your army, Grey Wind may be included for no additional points, tagging along on a Solo Tray all by himself.
Overall, Grey Wind isn't going to win many combats on his own, only throwing out two Attack dice (even if it does represent him mauling someone to death with a 2+ to Hit). Grey Wind's real strength comes from the unexpected surprise of having a Direwolf suddenly charge into you Flank or Rear while another unit hits you from the Front. Expert use of Grey Wind would see him roaming around near Robb, waiting for the perfect time to strike. When Robb's unit is ready to move in, Grey Wind leads the assault, hitting the unit on the Flank, dealing some damage, but most importantly causing them to become Vulnerable. Robb then in turn charges in and benefits from that condition.
Of course, you really don't want Grey Wind stuck in combat on his own, since while he has a decent Defense, Resilience, and even the ability to suffer 2 wounds before being killed, he is still just a single direwolf, and a dedicated unit of soldiers will make short work of him.
Channel your inner Robb, plan your assaults, use your speed to your advantage, and Grey Wind can prove to be a potent weapon in your arsenal!
And there you have it, loyal bannermen, a look into the combat units of House Stark! We'll be taking a look at our various Unit Attachments, as well as our Commanders, in a later update, both of which only serve to add more variety and tactics to our arsenal. Join us then, followers of the Direwolf!
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Post by: daemonish
Has anyone pledged to a CMON Kickstarter before? What are they like for sticking to deadlines and delivery overseas?
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Post by: Tamereth
I'm a huge fan of the show, and I think that's why this isn't wowing me. Nothing really ties into the look of the shows. When looking at the characters I don't recognise them without being told who they are (except the mountain).
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Post by: DaveC
Safest to add 2 to 3 months to estimated delivery some projects are fairly on time others have over run and it's not unusual for U.K. And EU delivery to be 4 to 6 weeks behind the US although Australia got Massive Darkness first this time and German shipping notices are out whilst the US waits. Massive Darkness is 3 months late Arcadia Quest Inferno was 8 months late but that is an exceptional case.
With this going to retail in March/April there shouldn't be to much slippage don't expect to have it before retail CMoN dont make any gaurantees in that regard and justify it by "the deal" and exclusives KS backers get.
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Post by: endtransmission
 daemonish wrote:Has anyone pledged to a CMON Kickstarter before? What are they like for sticking to deadlines and delivery overseas?
They are very good with their deadlines and delivery. There was an accident with Irish backers a few campaigns back getting other people's parcels, but that was sorted fairly quickly I believe. I've never had any issues with a CMON project
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Post by: MrDwhitey
Always late but always deliver is my experience.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
daemonish wrote:Has anyone pledged to a CMON Kickstarter before? What are they like for sticking to deadlines and delivery overseas?
they're typically late, and later for non US shipments by a couple of months,
most recent example Massive Darkness, estimate april 2017,
containers to the USA hitting port July & August so probably starting to ship August/September with the European stuff supposedly on the same schedule
but they do deliver, and in terms of KS projects the delays are pretty minor
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Post by: Aeneades
As others have said you will definitely get what you pledge for but it may arrive a few months behind schedule (I think I have only had one pledge arrive on time and in Black Plague they shipped out the core box ahead of the rest of the items to make sure that backers received at least something by Christmas).
I haven't been disappointed with the quality of any items I have received.
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Post by: Cergorach
The miniatures in Black Plague and Blood Rage (both CMoN games) are also PVC, but they are of such high quality, that they are easily on par on a lot of metal miniatures. This PVC sculpt isn't Reaper Bones or the PVC crap Privateer Press uses (although the Widowers Wood minis are great for the price). The swords and halberds are of a different and stiffer material then the rest of the PVC (ABS I believe). Preassembled is a huge boost for me, if it wasn't I wouldn't have backed the KS, just like I didn't back Wrath of Kings by CMoN. If I have to assemble I want plastic! Or it must be something amazing or really cheap! At about €1,25/mini I'm happy, I suspect we'll end up less then a EURO per mini (inc. shipping). Compared to GW/PP that's a huge deal and easily used with other skirmish games...
CMoN isn't often not exactly on time, but better then most with the amount of SG they have. Dom't expect on time, expect a few months to half a year late, but expect it.
The minis are based on the books, not on the TV series. Robb Stark is recognizable due to the wolf, The Mountain due to the color (Lannister) and size. If you didn't recognize Tyrion I don't know what's wrong with you! ;-) The same for the three women in the box, those were easily recognizable. And after that you can easily guess Jaime. But I still haven't seen the TV series (read the books just before the series started)...
Buying multiple $150 pledges is an option, I'm considering 2-3...
I'm disappointed with the KS Exclusives beyond the "The High Seneschal", they have very little use to the game, as I can only use one character sculpt at the same time. Alt sculpts for things I can use multiples of I am happy with!
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Post by: corgan
As an old fan of the Song of Ice and Fire book series, I personally prefer that the characters have been inspired by the iconography existing prior to the series than imitating the actors of the tv series.
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Post by: Mymearan
As a fellow old fan of SoIaF... i still can't get past the actors! They are the characters for me. Doesn't bother me much here though, I Think CMON did a fine job with the minis.
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Post by: Fireball
As expected pledging is slowing down now ... they really need to put out a more interesting stretch goal after Bolton's packmasters/dogs ...
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Post by: RiTides
The only real drawbacks to CMON's current level of PVC models is:
1. Difficult to convert
2. Limited poses (lots of repeats)
3. Bendy weapons
Those are significant, particularly in a wargame rather than a skirmish. But the individual model quality is pretty fantastic!
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Post by: DaveC
 RiTides wrote:The only real drawbacks to CMON's current level of PVC models is:
1. Difficult to convert
2. Limited poses (lots of repeats)
3. Bendy weapons
Those are significant, particularly in a wargame rather than a skirmish. But the individual model quality is pretty fantastic!
At least number 3 is sorted by using ABS plastic for the weapons it worked well for WoK. Can't argue with the other 2 points even a 4th infantry pose would be good so that each rank has 1 of each pose with only 3 poses the same pose will appear twice in a rank.
The hounds look fine with only 2 poses, paint job will further distinguish them which is harder to do with infantry as they all wear the same uniforms.
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Post by: Sqorgar
 Tamereth wrote:I'm a huge fan of the show, and I think that's why this isn't wowing me. Nothing really ties into the look of the shows. When looking at the characters I don't recognise them without being told who they are (except the mountain).
As someone who has read the books multiple times and doesn't watch the show, I'm not being particularly wowed either.
And not to go off topic or invite a flame war or anything, but... wait for it... the books... stay on target... are the true Westeros.
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Post by: Bull0
To capture the feel of the books it'd need to be primarily a game about banqueting. I swear more pages are dedicated to food porn than much else
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Post by: evancich
I pledged, but I think this is a misstep for CMON.
They have crazy successful KS campaigns and having the war game license to A Song of Ice and Fire seems like the license to print $$$$$$$$$
I don't think doing a KS is as good of a deal (for the backers as the other ones were). They can't offer a bunch of KS item only because this will live on at retail
They also can't widely change the balence via a KS item
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Post by: Pacific
You could argue that doing anything that isn't a board or card game is a mis-step, from a financial perspective.
Wargaming is just a smaller market, they could have included 200 high-grade resin miniatures, each with individual poses, and included real miniature bonsai trees as the terrain, and it still wouldn't have made as much as the least popular Zombicide game.
I'm not too bothered about the multiple poses, as long as there are a few. As someone who grew up on mono-pose even a few feels great! Although we have been spoilt a bit by the likes of the Perry men-at-arms box sets (which reading this thread actually make me want to go back to!  )
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Post by: Sqorgar
 Bull0 wrote:To capture the feel of the books it'd need to be primarily a game about banqueting. I swear more pages are dedicated to food porn than much else
You could fill a book (or five) with GRRM's bad habits in describing breakfasts, heraldry, clothing choices, and ancestry:
"Ted Hammerbutt wore a boiled leather jerkin over his enamel green chainmail shirt, with a slightly less green cloak fasted by a gold chain linked to two small golden hamsters. His pants were also leather, mottled green and brown, and completely irrelevant. His shield had a golden kracken giving birth to a motley duck on a sea of green against an orange sky. His eyes were grey and purple with golden flecks and just a hint of nutmeg.
Ted broke his fast with some honeyed wine, some walnuts, an omelet made from swallow eggs, and a pan-fried cake made with eyes of sliced banana and bacon for a mouth. As he ate, he considered the House of Hammerbutt, from his father Filip Hammerbutt, his uncle Terry Hammerbutt (known to most as Terry the Rather Unpleasant), his nuncles Jeyne Hammerbutt (Little Jeyne), Jayne Hammerbutt (Big Jayne), Jaiiine Hammerbutt (The 10th Jayne), and some other guy who will never be mentioned again, probably, but you better remember his name anyway because you never know, it might just come up again in a Dunk and Egg story, Turd Gunderson, by way of the lesser Gunderson house."
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Post by: frankelee
evancich wrote:I pledged, but I think this is a misstep for CMON.
They have crazy successful KS campaigns and having the war game license to A Song of Ice and Fire seems like the license to print $$$$$$$$$
I don't think doing a KS is as good of a deal (for the backers as the other ones were). They can't offer a bunch of KS item only because this will live on at retail
They also can't widely change the balence via a KS item
Can't say yet what all they'll include for the base pledge, but if you think about it, they've already got one mercenary unit released, if they did one more, then did two Stark (the hinted at Stark Longbowmen and Cannogmen Trackers or whatever) and two Lannister (Crossbowmen + Something else), and the two hinted at Cavalry units that would be 80 miniatures alone. 88 if you double count cavalry, which some do. Then 20 or so characters/officers and you're over 200 minis. And if they really wanted to impress they could offer 1 or 2 more units for each side and push it to 225, which would be equal value to Green Horde.
Given that this is a harder sell I would recommend they push the value, but even so, they'll still have a lot of content yet to sell in stores if their release schedule slide is to be believed.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
 Sqorgar wrote: Bull0 wrote:To capture the feel of the books it'd need to be primarily a game about banqueting. I swear more pages are dedicated to food porn than much else
You could fill a book (or five) with GRRM's bad habits in describing breakfasts, heraldry, clothing choices, and ancestry:
"Ted Hammerbutt wore a boiled leather jerkin over his enamel green chainmail shirt, with a slightly less green cloak fasted by a gold chain linked to two small golden hamsters. His pants were also leather, mottled green and brown, and completely irrelevant. His shield had a golden kracken giving birth to a motley duck on a sea of green against an orange sky. His eyes were grey and purple with golden flecks and just a hint of nutmeg.
Ted broke his fast with some honeyed wine, some walnuts, an omelet made from swallow eggs, and a pan-fried cake made with eyes of sliced banana and bacon for a mouth. As he ate, he considered the House of Hammerbutt, from his father Filip Hammerbutt, his uncle Terry Hammerbutt (known to most as Terry the Rather Unpleasant), his nuncles Jeyne Hammerbutt (Little Jeyne), Jayne Hammerbutt (Big Jayne), Jaiiine Hammerbutt (The 10th Jayne), and some other guy who will never be mentioned again, probably, but you better remember his name anyway because you never know, it might just come up again in a Dunk and Egg story, Turd Gunderson, by way of the lesser Gunderson house."
Genius! Give this man a ghost writer deal and let's wrap the series up!
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Post by: evancich
Yeah...
What I'm saying is CMON can't have a SG that is the white walker faction or Jon Snow++ in terminator armor swinging the lightbringer hitting on a 1+ and re-rolling everything.
The first because they will need to sell that later and they don't want to piss off the new player base by giving the KS backers a jump start on a big faction before it is available at retail. The latter because of balance.
CMON is stuck (for lack of a better term) doing those 2 factions and adding more dudes to the starter.
They can't give us anything amazing as a KS exclusive because the game needs to live at retail.
CMON in previous campaigns had unbalanced units that were KS only. Which was a nice easter egg to the backers.
ASoIaF simply won't have that.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I'm surprised this is taking so long to get to their 735 goal.
I was hoping to see more along the lines of Wrath of Kings piles of minis and units.
I guess they're going for a more slow and steady burn?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
I would be happy if they just gave backers more of the basic units.
Kinda reminds me of Zombicide where they pile the Survivors on and don't even give you the option to buy more basic zombies, let alone give you a substantial amount of extra ones (which I feel was an especially bad move for Green Horde).
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Post by: Cergorach
Well GW just did well over $200 million in revenue (that's before licenses) in a YEAR. So mini wargames DO make a lot of money, you just need to be THE big player in the market. That's almost 14 times what CMoN made from the the 5 Zombicide KS over the last 5 years... CMoN is tiny compared to that.
The problem is multifold:
- No real useful Kickstarter exclusives, they are just alternate sculpts of minis already included. Very limited utility!
- Addons are a bit Meh! terrain and dice
- It's summer, people are on vacation, not seeing the KS.
- People just went or are going on vacation and funds are limited.
- There is a huge following of GoT, but how many of those fans will play a non-magical wargame over something where you can throw fireballs and fight dragons?
- It's a hugely popular property, there's going to be license costs up the Whazzoo!
We're actually sooner at 22 extra minis then the Greenhorde ($735k vs $740k). Timewise, we're about a million dollars behind Greenhorde, reasons: See above.
@ $5 million, Greenhorde came with 140 miniatures for $120 + shipping. We're almost at 126 miniatures for $150, but I suspect that we're going to end up with around 177 minis or more at this rate... Still a very good deal!
I hope they don't give us more of the standard units, that wouldn't motivate me to buy more pledges, I want new and different units...
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Post by: LunarSol
 Nostromodamus wrote:I would be happy if they just gave backers more of the basic units.
Kinda reminds me of Zombicide where they pile the Survivors on and don't even give you the option to buy more basic zombies, let alone give you a substantial amount of extra ones (which I feel was an especially bad move for Green Horde).
They used to. The original game had a bunch of extra zombies as stretch goals that eventually became stand alone boxed expansions at retail. I'd guess those expansions sold poorly and for the game itself, extra zombies significantly lowers the difficulty and made the experience too easy for most people.
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Post by: Bull0
Doggos are unlocked now and we're working towards Ramsay Snow. They've added an optional buy for palisade walls and stakes, at the same price as the trees and bushes. They're nice but presumably even easier to homemake
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Post by: infinite_array
Also, the units from the starter set and the Bolton merc unit are available as $30 addons (MSRP $35).
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Post by: adamsouza
I think it suffers from the same phenomena as the Walking Dead Total War miniatures game, where the models are based on the orginal source material and not the wildy popular TV show.
It's a CMON kickstarter, so I'm keeping an eye on it to see if it gets ridiculous, must buy, levels of miniatures included, but I can't get too excited when none of the characters look how I'm used to seeing them.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I watched the first season ages ago, well after I read the books, and can barely remember what most of the actors looked like, so I'm not too disappointed in how they look.
Still waiting for that point where I can't help but pledge. That's probably not coming til the last few days though, as it usually is.
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Post by: Morghot
evancich wrote:Yeah...
What I'm saying is CMON can't have a SG that is the white walker faction or Jon Snow++ in terminator armor swinging the lightbringer hitting on a 1+ and re-rolling everything.
The first because they will need to sell that later and they don't want to piss off the new player base by giving the KS backers a jump start on a big faction before it is available at retail. The latter because of balance.
CMON is stuck (for lack of a better term) doing those 2 factions and adding more dudes to the starter.
They can't give us anything amazing as a KS exclusive because the game needs to live at retail.
CMON in previous campaigns had unbalanced units that were KS only. Which was a nice easter egg to the backers.
ASoIaF simply won't have that.
I agree with you, the game needs to live at retail also because is not a simple "boardgame" like others cmon released, this can be a real wargame with more faction and a lot of possible future release.
At least is what i hope, would be a waste if this wont be a wargame sustained and updated over the years.
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Post by: evancich
Just listened to one of the CMON guys on the FTN podcast.
He says basically what I thought. Nothing exclusive that effects gameplay.
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Post by: Pacific
Cergorach wrote:Well GW just did well over $200 million in revenue (that's before licenses) in a YEAR. So mini wargames DO make a lot of money, you just need to be THE big player in the market. That's almost 14 times what CMoN made from the the 5 Zombicide KS over the last 5 years... CMoN is tiny compared to that.
.
I think you have to look at the reach of miniature wargames outside of GW (which as you have said is by far the biggest fish in the pond), that revenue is built off the back of more than 30 years in the industry (in many ways, they had become the industry, certainly in the case of sci-fi and fantasy), with a global network of stores and reach into books and computer games).
But in terms of relative sizes of 'ponds', the board and card game one is that much bigger (think it was over $1 billion last year for the first time?)
There is a far, far bigger demographic that board games can appeal to than miniature wargames, that's a trivial observation I know but was the point I was trying to make previously in terms of measuring the level of success that this KS will achieve.
A good question might be, what is the current KS record for a miniature wargame? And measure the achievement of ASOIAF against that.
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Post by: DaveC
Here's the most funded list
https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/games/tabletop%20games?sort=most_funded
As a rank and file wargame it's already the highest funded. I think Robotech is the most funded wargame at $1.44m (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
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Post by: RoninXiC
We don't talk about Robotech here.. Robotech never happened.
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Post by: Alpharius
I think you're right - and that's a shame that it has that honor!
RoninXiC wrote:We don't talk about Robotech here.. Robotech never happened.
To be fair, its only about 40% happened so far?
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Post by: Draccan
Is it just me or is this kickstarter "suffering" from their add-ons being too expensive? 35$ MSRP for a unit of 13 infantry models which are monopose and of limited quality plastic?
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Post by: Sining
I'm guessing RR Martin needs quite a bit of royalties
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Post by: DaveC
Might be an interesting meeting at CMoN HQ this morning. Michael Shinall appeared in comments yesterday morning and was all set to post an update yesterday but then vanished. Comments section has got a bit toxic (but then it wouldn't be a CMoN KS if didn't at some point!)
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
thinking of what they can do with no doubt scary licence fees, a determination to not tread on retailers toes with advance content, and no flexibility on adding a million pop culture reference heroes
I think the best thing to do would be to drop the idea of resculpts of all these characters you can only field one of, and start to add duplicate units instead.
after all for a rank and file unit based wargame 4 per side does not make a very varied game, and even if most of the uints are the same being able to maneuver with say 6 or 8 would make things much more interesting
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Post by: Mutter
Yeah, wouldn't be surprised if they decided to pull the plug soon.
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Post by: infinite_array
My friend and I both canceled our pledges. We don't like where the campaign is headed, and kf we"re still interested by mid-next year, we'll buy at retail.
We ended up pledging for Carnevale - I got the two player set, and he's grabbing a faction box.
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Post by: RiTides
 Draccan wrote:
Is it just me or is this kickstarter "suffering" from their add-ons being too expensive? 35$ MSRP for a unit of 13 infantry models which are monopose and of limited quality plastic?
Yeah I've been thinking that too... what's the point of PVC (even if it's as good as possible) at a price like that?
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Post by: frankelee
RiTides wrote: Draccan wrote:
Is it just me or is this kickstarter "suffering" from their add-ons being too expensive? 35$ MSRP for a unit of 13 infantry models which are monopose and of limited quality plastic?
Yeah I've been thinking that too... what's the point of PVC (even if it's as good as possible) at a price like that?
Amen to this! I felt like there was a niche out there for a PVC miniatures wargame that shot for Warhammer Fantasy Battles sized armies of 100 to 200 minis a side, but at a price people could afford. But instead Runewars and now Ice and Fire decided, "Hey GW sells Space Marines for $5 each, let's sell our minis for $3 each." And they have just missed the market entirely.
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Post by: Chikout
RiTides wrote: Draccan wrote:
Is it just me or is this kickstarter "suffering" from their add-ons being too expensive? 35$ MSRP for a unit of 13 infantry models which are monopose and of limited quality plastic?
Yeah I've been thinking that too... what's the point of PVC (even if it's as good as possible) at a price like that?
What bothers me particularly is that there are so few sculpts per unit. You get four unique sculpts in each unit. The core set contains duplicate units, so the lack of variety is even more apparent. If there were six or more sculpts per unit, I would probably have pledged by now, but as it stands, I will not.
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Post by: auticus
I kickstarted it for the models, not the game. The game itself I doubt I'd get to play, but I can use the models for frostgrave or even AOS.
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Post by: SnotlingPimpWagon
Duplicates in any miniature game- a big no-no
one of the biggest immersion breakers out there
And that's not great for a game based on a such a lore heavy universe
Plus PVC is harder to work with... So converting is somewhat of a pain. And where do we get all the bits to convert with anyway? Automatically Appended Next Post:  adamsouza wrote:
I think it suffers from the same phenomena as the Walking Dead Total War miniatures game, where the models are based on the orginal source material and not the wildy popular TV show.
It's a CMON kickstarter, so I'm keeping an eye on it to see if it gets ridiculous, must buy, levels of miniatures included, but I can't get too excited when none of the characters look how I'm used to seeing them.
To be honest, I'm actually glad, they didn't sculpt the actors.
Not that they are bad looking, but Rob Stark would feel more like the actual character, rather thank the actor. Plus books and TV series being somewhat different plays a role in that a bit.
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Post by: DaveC
They've brought Thiago back from his paternity leave
Thiago Aranha Collaborator 11 minutes ago
Hail Bannerman!
Paternity leave is over, and now my watch begins! How are you all faring this fine morning?
I hear there's an extremely juicy update in the works. Feels like the start of a glorious week.
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Post by: Albino Squirrel
I don't see this game existing at retail. Who is going to pay $35 for a box of 12 PVC miniatures in four poses?
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Post by: Pacific
I suppose they are weighing everything on the strength of the license.
Some interesting comments about the number of poses per box, a lot of rank and file games over the years have had a lot less than that, although it might be that standards have increased somewhat since then?
Will have to see if the guy returning from paternity leave can give things a kick up the bottom, I have to say it seems like some of the stretch goals have been rather optimistic, and having things like the three dog unit stretches in a row have probably not helped the cause.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
That price is pretty much CMON standard,
the Wrath of King unit boxes are $35 and have 12 troops (plus a couple of unit leaders the lack of which can easily be explained by the GRRM licencing fee)
eg https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/wrath-of-kings/shael-han-dragon-legion-box.html
hard to tell if anybody will pay it since they can'r get distribution running over here in the UK despite several updates suggesting they have hooked up with somebody who will
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Post by: DaveC
Adding more value over the next few goals, Stark Archers (4 sculpts) and Lannister Knights (4 sculpts). That will bring it up to 3 extra unit boxes with the pledge
plus mat and walls/bog add on
New terrain is very meh, you'd make a better bog yourself its just too flat and lacking detail.
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Post by: Fireball
You can say its 3 poses for the archers, but 4 different sculpts ...
I love those Casterly Rock Knights ... very nice
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Post by: DaveC
 Fireball wrote:You can say its 3 poses for the archers, but 4 different sculpts ...
I love those Casterly Rock Knights ... very nice
Sorry corrected now the 2 left most looked like the same miniature but I see the difference now. Do they all seem to be lacking a quiver/arrows? it's hard to tell but I'm not seeing any.
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Post by: LunarSol
It'd be fun to know how episodes of the show are affecting the campaign. Last night certainly highlighted the potential of it visually, but also was a pretty strong reminder that the world isn't really about the armies fighting at all.
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Post by: infinite_array
 DaveC wrote:Adding more value over the next few goals, Stark Archers (4 sculpts) and Lannister Knights (4 sculpts). That will bring it up to 3 extra unit boxes with the pledge
It should be noted that those stretch goals aren't for the whole unit. The archers have been broken up into three stretch goals, while the knights are two. That was another turn off from being a backer. I wouldn't want to recieve a partial unit that's going to end up being useless in the game thanks to an unreached stretch goal.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
 infinite_array wrote: DaveC wrote:Adding more value over the next few goals, Stark Archers (4 sculpts) and Lannister Knights (4 sculpts). That will bring it up to 3 extra unit boxes with the pledge
It should be noted that those stretch goals aren't for the whole unit. The archers have been broken up into three stretch goals, while the knights are two. That was another turn off from being a backer. I wouldn't want to recieve a partial unit that's going to end up being useless in the game thanks to an unreached stretch goal.
It should also be noted that in the very same update CMON said they would not leave backers with incomplete units.
Which begs the question why not just unlock the whole unit then? But we already know; filler SGs.
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Post by: Aeneades
They really could have done with unlocking both these units in one stretch goal each rather than over a combined 5 (making it clear the single goal is only for these units). Unlocking these two units quickly would have added some much needed value to the pledge option and hopefully increased momentum. Even better would be if they just added them into the pledge as a gesture of goodwill and to try and improve the campaign.
The new Bones campaign launching tomorrow really wont help either due to current lack of value in the Ice & Fire Pledge.
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Post by: Sining
Nah, I would still rather back this than Bones. After calculating shipping to APAC, it's not worth backing bones at a KS level.
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Post by: MDSW
Nice to see they have the troops available, but seems a bit pricey. I would love to use the Lannister Guards to replace the Basilean MAAs, but fear they will be too tall. I will wait until I can see a size comparison and then pick some up retail, if they look like they will fit.
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Post by: DaveC
Latest word is that Basilean MAAs are getting replaced during the KoW Vanguard KS apparently renders were shown at the last open day but no images seem to have slipped out.
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Post by: Fireball
Eddard Stark is next SG at 855k
I like the model ... like the character always hesitant to use Ice. Not much progression regarding pledges though. Making no KS exclusive characters available as optional buys really bugs me ...
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Post by: Aeneades
KS exclusive characters would destroy the competitive scene that CMON are trying to build around this game at best they could offer KS exclusive sculpts but there doesn't seem to be much interest in those.
Things are moving very slowly at the moment so they could really do with just adding a couple of extra units worth of content to the pledge which I think will push it into good value for a lot of people.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
Hopefully the ks will go over $1 million and by that time the base pledge value is too good to resist. I want to want to back this project but so far it just feels like the added licensing cost has pushed the price a bit too high for my hobby budget.
Given the amount of heroes I have for Z:BP and coming in Z;Green Horde (along with giants and siege engines!) in the same scale I wish they'd include extra movement trays or at least offer them as an add on. I could easily build more units and reduce the repeated sculpts with the Zombicide heroes.
It would also be cool if the rulebook included all the factions' rules already. By the time this arrives (if I back it) I'll have enough Zombicide zombies, necromancers and a zombie giant to make a full white walker army if I had the rules and trays to put it on the table. That kind of boardgame to wargame compatibility really intrigues me but I'm afraid the licensing requirements are going to get in the way of the synergy potential.
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Post by: Pugnacious_Cee
Prestor Jon wrote:Hopefully the ks will go over $1 million and by that time the base pledge value is too good to resist. I want to want to back this project but so far it just feels like the added licensing cost has pushed the price a bit too high for my hobby budget.
Given the amount of heroes I have for Z: BP and coming in Z;Green Horde (along with giants and siege engines!) in the same scale I wish they'd include extra movement trays or at least offer them as an add on. I could easily build more units and reduce the repeated sculpts with the Zombicide heroes.
It would also be cool if the rulebook included all the factions' rules already. By the time this arrives (if I back it) I'll have enough Zombicide zombies, necromancers and a zombie giant to make a full white walker army if I had the rules and trays to put it on the table. That kind of boardgame to wargame compatibility really intrigues me but I'm afraid the licensing requirements are going to get in the way of the synergy potential.
The SoI&F miniatures are on bases that are a different (and typical of wargaming, standard 30mm) size that the round bottoms to the zombicide stuff. The zombicide stuff would either need to be rebased by you to fit the trays, or have special trays made just for them.
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Post by: MDSW
DaveC wrote:Latest word is that Basilean MAAs are getting replaced during the KoW Vanguard KS apparently renders were shown at the last open day but no images seem to have slipped out.
OT, but I REALLY want to see the new renderings!!!
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
So far this feels disappointingly similar to the KS Wyrd ran for that larger-scale Malifaux game, whose name alludes me at the moment.
It just doesn't feel like a "critical mass" of excitement which a new miniatures game really needs if its going to find a community. And as we all know, a game without a community is usually just a money-sink for us early-adopters.
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Post by: Da krimson barun
Finally heard about this...not very wowed at all. Rules don't seem very exciting, Models are just pretty fantasy instead of the iconic aesthetic that would fly off the shelves...seems they're on a road to either failure or very little success.
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Post by: JimmyWolf87
 Da krimson barun wrote:Finally heard about this...not very wowed at all. Rules don't seem very exciting, Models are just pretty fantasy instead of the iconic aesthetic that would fly off the shelves...seems they're on a road to either failure or very little success.
The aesthetic is, to an extent, dictated by GRRM himself as everything passes through him and, so far, I'd say it's pretty consistent with the low fantasy, quasi-medieval European aesthetic his series has had since it's inception.
Not sure what 'iconic aesthetic' you're looking for with this IP?
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Post by: Phobos
Honestly that lazy rich turds reluctance to finish the story while cashing in at every level has really soured me on this franchise.
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Post by: RiTides
A lot of artists / writers / etc have trouble finishing something, especially an epic like that... I understand the frustration but you can always watch the (allgedly) leaked HBO episodes to get an idea of what's coming 
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Post by: ingtaer
I was fairly excited for this Kickstarter but having never dealt with CMoN before I was also cautious, upon launch I thought that it looked pretty decent but on further reflection have decided that to buy in is going to cost US$150 for models in a hit and miss material, limited sculpts and a fair time away. Think I might just spend that money on Perry minis and print off some transfers and play ASoIaF now using any of the huge number of rulesets already available. The only thing that seems to be unique about this the sidegame stuff.
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Post by: ced1106
Yep. Thanks to comments like yours, I've been finding rulesets that others have made for Game of Thrones. Found this one: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?364830-Dux-Westerosum-Lannisters-Emerging
The political aspect's too abstract for me. While the combat has the expected charge, flank, ranged, etc. attacks, the political side has the abstract Euro-hybrid opportunity cost resulting in actions like "draw a Tactics card". Not particularly immersive to me.
I *am* interested in wargames where "off the board" activity influenced the battle, so if anyone knows of such games, let me know. I know that Mighty Empires added exploration and all sorts of other activity to campaign wargames, where the battles themselves could be replaced with dice rolls, or actually played out on a battle field.
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Post by: Sining
RiTides wrote:A lot of artists / writers / etc have trouble finishing something, especially an epic like that... I understand the frustration but you can always watch the (allgedly) leaked HBO episodes to get an idea of what's coming
I think the ending will be 'everyone dies, nothing really changes'
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Post by: Pacific
Ced1106 - Bloody Barons is really good for that one. It's a ruleset intended for Peter Pig's War of the Roses period campaign, but you have a large pre-battle sequence were both players can scheme and back-stab each other to represent the machinations that were going on behind the scene with that conflict. Things such as bribes and wavering loyalties for individual units come into it, even wagon trains/supplies for the troops or bad weather that impacts arrival at a given point. Obviously the propensity for troops to switch sides would change depending on whether they were household guard, or a levy that's been raised by a local Baron who isn't quite sure which way the war is going to go, and would rather have a gift of a losing rival's land from the king, than end up in exile or with his head on a block. It's some really interesting dynamics involved and I think captures the almost chaotic nature of that conflict quite well, actually really makes me want to play just writing about it!
The aesthetic is, to an extent, dictated by GRRM himself as everything passes through him and, so far, I'd say it's pretty consistent with the low fantasy, quasi-medieval European aesthetic his series has had since it's inception.
Back to this game, about the aesthetic obviously it is not going to be to everyone's taste. What I will say is that by and large the design looks consistent, and if you want 'low fantasy' (really, as low as you are going to get) then this looks a good bet. Really, everything is a slightly extreme version of real life, and definitely think it has a niche for itself. The armour of the Lannister guard and knights looks as ornate as the richest landowners and lords of Europe could have hoped for in real historical terms. The Stark berserkers wearing their skins look like the most fearsome viking raiders or Germanic barbarian warlords, but again that stretch of reality while remaining plausible. But yes, if you want towering steam-powered walkers, creatures from nightmare or celestial super-men then this isn't that game.
I really like it, it's got it's own style and I'd quite happily collect and paint a pile of them despite owning a bunch of Perry men-at-arms, as they do represent something quite different.
Rules-wise, obviously we need to see more of that aspect but the signs are good. There seem to be a number of aspects of modern game design involved, and they've put one of the most respected board game creators at the helm here - I own a couple of those games and absolutely love them, so for me this is far less of a risk than a lot of other similar board or wargames where you have no idea of track record of the people making the game.
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Post by: Carnikang
 Pacific wrote:
Back to this game, about the aesthetic obviously it is not going to be to everyone's taste. What I will say is that by and large the design looks consistent, and if you want 'low fantasy' (really, as low as you are going to get) then this looks a good bet. Really, everything is a slightly extreme version of real life, and definitely think it has a niche for itself. The armour of the Lannister guard and knights looks as ornate as the richest landowners and lords of Europe could have hoped for in real historical terms. The Stark berserkers wearing their skins look like the most fearsome viking raiders or Germanic barbarian warlords, but again that stretch of reality while remaining plausible. But yes, if you want towering steam-powered walkers, creatures from nightmare or celestial super-men then this isn't that game.
I really like it, it's got it's own style and I'd quite happily collect and paint a pile of them despite owning a bunch of Perry men-at-arms, as they do represent something quite different.
I agree, it has a nice consistent look. Personally, these are great fodder/goon minis for things like DnD or other RPGs. Comign from that direction, having a line of product with a cohesive look is great for setting and world building.
They might not be the best miniatures in material or pose-ability, but they'll work just fine for plenty of people who like them.
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Post by: DaveC
New Bolton unit, they've enough for a small force now (and there's more Bolton stuff on the way)
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Post by: Aeneades
Given that the Bolton characters, 2 boxes of girls and 2 boxes of cutthroats with attached captains can make a 30 point purely Bolton force it would be nice to see a Bolton tactics deck added at some point (although as they are a mercenary faction it may be unlikely). Looking forward to seeing what the next Bolton unit is bit sound and they did imply it had a proper flayed man banner rather than the blood drops the Cuthroats have.
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Post by: Flashman
This KS needs more Joffrey
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Post by: DaveC
Would another Lannister do?
The full box of Lannister Knights is unlocked and add to the base pledge.
There's also a preview of the Faith Militant - Champion of the Faith
The above is a KS exclusive sculpt only available with Add on boxes of Lannister Knights.
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Post by: Flashman
Jesting aside, I'd really like to see a production miniature for this. I'm hearing lots of boasts regarding "High Quality" PVC, but haven't yet held such stuff in my hands, except perhaps the Guild Ball Kick Off set which was pretty good, but still suffered from droopy weapons.
Steamforged are claiming that their next major release (The Farmers Guild starter) will really show off what the new PVC is capable of, but that release will come after this KS has closed.
Guess I could jump in for a few £ and then still have the option to increase to full backing.
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Post by: Aeneades
CMON are going for harder plastic weapons to avoid any droopping.
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Post by: Bluebeard
I'd love to get this, but where the hell will I find other players...
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Post by: Shrapnelsmile
Bluebeard wrote:I'd love to get this, but where the hell will I find other players...
Like most smaller game systems, if passionate about them we have to create two demo armies and home-grow a scene ourselves.
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Post by: ced1106
 Flashman wrote:Jesting aside, I'd really like to see a production miniature for this. I'm hearing lots of boasts regarding "High Quality" PVC, but haven't yet held such stuff in my hands, except perhaps the Guild Ball Kick Off set which was pretty good, but still suffered from droopy weapons.
Is CMON using the same plastic as they did in Massive Darkness? Maybe you could ask on the MD threads if the miniatures have problems.
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Post by: Aeneades
CMON are using the same plastic as massive darkness for most of the model but are then using a harder plastic for thin components such as weapons. They don't usually do this for miniature board games but do for war games (believe Wrath of Kings had the harder plastic weapons).
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Post by: Carlovonsexron
Tywins armor suffers from a bad case of “too much sci fi” IMO.
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Post by: Alpharius
Still hard to believe that this hasn't cracked $1M yet.
Is it really due to TV GoT being more popular than Book GoT, and no TV likenesses = less interest?
Or, is it that wargames < boardgames?
And CMON hasn't given many/enough details about their 'organized play' plans for this?
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Post by: smurfORnot
To me it's hard to believe people are actually backing this. Sub par rules, sub par models but in the end, overpriced prices for what is offered. Since this is marketed as wargame, and in this Department, it is sub par in every apsect compared to what is on the market. Not really surprised they are 'failing' with this one.
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Post by: frankelee
He looks like he's about to fight Space Vin Diesel.
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Post by: Fireball
I like Tywin ... where they held back with Eddard they added a little bit too much bling on him, but I still like it. I am backing this project because I like ASOFAI and I want to paint the characters. Hopefully the models are not as sub-par as some here are stating ...
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Post by: Aeneades
War Games perform badly on Kickstarter no matter the source material or designer. This is the second biggest table top wargame so far but if this was a board game instead it would likely have cleared 5 million by now.
I don't think there is anything really wrong with the rules. They seem competent enough and are still being refined. I may also use the models for a game of thrones skirmish game (likely LOTR rules).
I do think the RRP is too high for these boxes but still cheaper than the similar boxes Wyrd are putting out for their rank and file game and similar to Rune Wars (but with better sculpts, in my opinion).
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I'd say both,
(CMON) wargames are clearly less popular than boardgames on KS
as well as general bias there are just too many KS folk who have to have everything so won't consider a game where you're going to have to keep buying stuff, they want to spend their cash then bask in their complete collection
and GoT the TV show is a bigger draw than the books, I've certainly seen a fair few folk saying they'd have backed but the minis don't look like the characters/units from the TV (on social media/forums)
(its a lot harder for even the book fans to see the minis as 'right' as everybody will have their own mental images which may not bear that much resemblance to what GRRM has described in the book)
Edit: Plus if your a fan of one of the GoT factions the odds are you're not yet being represented, too many of them are planned for later retail and if your favourite is amongst them you might as well wait and see if it takes off and then grab them
and finally I suspect the fact that the rules aren't done/finalised is worrying some of the wargamers who might want to get involved as they still don't know enough about what play will be like
(plus a degree of healthy scepticism about support/availability post KS especially for those outside the USA, the availability of CMON wargames is a bit iffy and it's a lot harder to sell a system to your mates if direct ordering with no discount may be the main way you have to end up buying)
EDIT: plus it's not scratching the fantasy itch for people as there's no magic or monsters (yet), if your keen on historical (or pseudo historical) you might as well buy a bunch of perry/fireforge/dirt cheap metals and one of the cheap & fun independent rule sets, there's just less drive to pick up CMONs expensive offering
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Post by: DaveC
Mercenaries Tactics deck - will allow Boltons to be fielded on their own.
and then the rest of the Stark Bowmen in one go (OK $ 40k go )
Hint of things to come? - Possible Bolton Cavalry
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Post by: Nostromodamus
I'm just feeling meh on this one, actually dropping my buck pledge.
It did get me looking at historicals though, where I can get hard plastic minis for less than a buck each.
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Post by: Bull0
Tywin looks like he abducted the dark lord Sauron's tailor. Not too impressed with that.
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Post by: Fireball
that 955k stretch goal will be tough to get .... a cavalry unit add on (Tullys) might bring us there, but without model add-ons like the Cutthroats this SG seems faaar away ....
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Post by: Aeneades
They teased Bolton Cavalry in the last update so expect we will see them as an addon at some point. I am hoping they will give us the Lannister crossbows and Tully Cavalary as stretch goals but looking unlikely now
They have confirmed that the only way to get the Champion of the Faith exclusive sculpt is to buy a Lannister Knights box which is annoying as I already have more than enough knights coming with my two pledges thanks to the free stretch goals so don't need a third but have no choice if I want the KS exclusive.
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Post by: DaveC
Scale picture with Blood Rage and Zombicide BP minis (ASOIAF minis in the image are resin prototypes)
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Post by: alleus
 smurfORnot wrote:To me it's hard to believe people are actually backing this. Sub par rules, sub par models but in the end, overpriced prices for what is offered. Since this is marketed as wargame, and in this Department, it is sub par in every apsect compared to what is on the market. Not really surprised they are 'failing' with this one.
Yeah, opinions aren't a thing. It's not like people like different things and all. Also, how are they failing? They have tripled their set goal. You can't call a 900k (which will probably go over a million before it ends) campaign for a totally new game a failure. I really don't see what the issue is here. You don't have to like it, and you certainly don't have to back the kickstarter if you don't want to.
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Post by: LunarSol
 alleus wrote: smurfORnot wrote:To me it's hard to believe people are actually backing this. Sub par rules, sub par models but in the end, overpriced prices for what is offered. Since this is marketed as wargame, and in this Department, it is sub par in every apsect compared to what is on the market. Not really surprised they are 'failing' with this one.
Yeah, opinions aren't a thing. It's not like people like different things and all. Also, how are they failing? They have tripled their set goal. You can't call a 900k (which will probably go over a million before it ends) campaign for a totally new game a failure. I really don't see what the issue is here. You don't have to like it, and you certainly don't have to back the kickstarter if you don't want to.
That's certainly fine for a minis game. It's not like there's much in the way of correlation between kickstarter success and long term pickup when it comes to minis games anyway.
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Post by: ced1106
I'll just add that, for boardgamers, this is an expensive game they might not be able to get to the table, and it's only the starter set. Boardgamers are also lukewarm on RuneWars.
I imagine that X-Wing will be the "lifestyle" miniatures game that will win (and has probably already has won) out.
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Post by: frankelee
ced1106 wrote:
I'll just add that, for boardgamers, this is an expensive game they might not be able to get to the table, and it's only the starter set. Boardgamers are also lukewarm on RuneWars.
I imagine that X-Wing will be the "lifestyle" miniatures game that will win (and has probably already has won) out.
And if I can add, as a gamer with, let's just say, around 2,000 Warhammer Fantasy or compatible miniatures, telling me that I'll need to buy four to six $35 unit boxes at a cost of $140 to $210 just to round out one of the armies I will be receiving in my $170 (including shipping) starter set, leaves me feeling tepid as well.
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Post by: Aeneades
frankelee wrote:ced1106 wrote:
I'll just add that, for boardgamers, this is an expensive game they might not be able to get to the table, and it's only the starter set. Boardgamers are also lukewarm on RuneWars.
I imagine that X-Wing will be the "lifestyle" miniatures game that will win (and has probably already has won) out.
And if I can add, as a gamer with, let's just say, around 2,000 Warhammer Fantasy or compatible miniatures, telling me that I'll need to buy four to six $35 unit boxes at a cost of $140 to $210 just to round out one of the armies I will be receiving in my $170 (including shipping) starter set, leaves me feeling tepid as well.
The three game sizes are 30, 40 and 50 points. The starter set comes with enough units for a 30 point force for both factions including a couple of options for commanders, attachments and non combat characters. The extra unit and attachments offered so far in the Kickstarter bring it up to 40 points per faction (with a 7 point mercenary unit available as well). I am still hoping for an extra unit for each faction to bring extra variety to the 30 and 40 games. For an initial investment of $150 that doesn't seem too bad.
I decided to go for 2 pledges which should give me around 75 points worth of options for both factions (and around 85 if they do unlock a second free unit for each faction). Plus 14 points of mercenary units (and extra points for mercenary attachments on top of that).
So two large forces with a variety of options for $300 doesn't seem that bad to me (if you add 2 addon units of Bolton Cuttroats then you also get a 30 point mercenary army as well, once they unlock Bolton Cavalry you can probably push that to 40 for an extra $30 which also gives more mercenary options for Stark and Lannister).
It is a big investment but that is also a lot of models and have two - three tournament ready forces. If you can split two boxes with a. Friend then even better. The game will be more expensive at retail but with a decent online discount it looks at least comparable to similar games.
The one thing that has me worried is unit power creep but it sounds like they are going to try to avoid faction bloat as much as they can.
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Post by: smurfORnot
alleus wrote: smurfORnot wrote:To me it's hard to believe people are actually backing this. Sub par rules, sub par models but in the end, overpriced prices for what is offered. Since this is marketed as wargame, and in this Department, it is sub par in every apsect compared to what is on the market. Not really surprised they are 'failing' with this one.
Yeah, opinions aren't a thing. It's not like people like different things and all. Also, how are they failing? They have tripled their set goal. You can't call a 900k (which will probably go over a million before it ends) campaign for a totally new game a failure. I really don't see what the issue is here. You don't have to like it, and you certainly don't have to back the kickstarter if you don't want to.
Plenty of campaigns where goal is set low and you have 1000% funded...
Dark Souls, which was totaly new game on less Popular IP(I am fairly certain than GOt fans largly outnumber DS fans out there) blew this out of water, $ wise and backers wise. And it was apparent from begining game won't be that good to begin with...I would be very surprised if this became a thing...it will probably die out slowly.
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Post by: Aeneades
It's probably worth adding this here now given that we are in the final week. Whilst it says that only 4 Long bows have been unlocked all 12 will be provided even if the goal isn't hit. A Mercenary tactics deck has also been unlocked but isn't shown which allows a third faction. I am still hoping for 2 additional units to be unlocked as stretch goals (Gold Cloak Crossbows and Tully Cavalier) and one last addon unit (Bolton Cavalier)  Plus addons, most of these units are already included in the pledge level except for the Bolton Cuthroats - 
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Post by: Mymearan
I think this is a hard sell for many fans... it's a recreation of a much less "fantasy" period of Westeros history, when there were basically just men fighting against other men. I don't think people want that. They want to use Dany's dragons to burn white walkers, they want a legion of fearless Unsullied, dragonfire, screaming wildlings led by enormous giants, legions of Dothraki riders, Direwolves and Faceless Men... this is just so bland in comparison. It's like if GWs Lord of the Rings was nothing but Gondor and Rohan. No idea why they chose this period as the basis for the game.
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Post by: frankelee
If they'd have started the campaign with a single free unit alongside George, and then stretch goaled out some units real quick, they would have been fine. People just looked at it and didn't see value, then no value came within the first few days and they moved on to something else. CMON just had to be so cute with the way they did things that they cost themselves several million dollars in KS funds and ensured the game would not have an adequate community playing it when it got to stores.
Or go even further, does anyone really believe that if they just started the campaign with six free units on the Hand of the King Pledge that they wouldn't have made lots and lots of money, even with plastic ruler stretch goals? They've run so many successful campaigns, it probably doesn't even occur to them that they screwed up.
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Post by: Aeneades
Some aspects of it were poorly handled from the start. Even the design of the Kickstarter page was appaling. You had to scroll post through three screens of different move animations then 13 screens of model and rule previews before the graphic which actually showed what you received in the pledge. That pledge graphic also didn't break down the actual game box components and showed a picture missing around a third of the models to undersell it even more. Thankfully they have improved it now (although I would still split the Sword Swords and Lannister Guards into 2 separate units to show just how many models you get). Previously the only way to actually find out what come in the box was to open the draft rule book PDF.
You could really tell that Thiago was on paternity leave at the start of the campaign as he is usually the one to design the page and he does them well. He has redesigned it a little this week but still very cluttered.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Yes I think if they'd started with 6 free units already in the box they might have had a higher initial uptake but they'd have had lots of drop outs when they didn't carry on shovelling in more free stuff
(value hunter KS backers get upset when stretch goals don't shower them with more free stuff)
and retailers might well have been reluctant to stock the initial (most important) offerings as every backer would have had multiple copies of each unit to sell on (and store owners are even more reluctant to stock new wargames than they are to stock new boardgames as its easier to get stuck with a mound of unsold stuff)
I suspect that given what this is (a wargame) and what period of GoT it's based on (the books, before any of the more fantasy stuff showed up, and only involving 2 of the main factions) its probably doing reasonably well
playing with the stretch goals might have brought in a little more,
Using the KS exclusive sculpts to do more poses for the units rather than 'wasting' most of them on alternate character sculpts where you can't use both of them in the same game might well have helped too
they might be looking at $1.25 million and 7000 backers instead of almost $1 million and 6000 backers
but without the TV show liknesses and all the factions (the real weakness in my opinion) available at once I don't think it ever had the potential to do black plague numbers
after all compared to CMONs last wargame Wrath of Kings they've already got more cash and backers in a far shorter time (3,756 backers pledged $718,152 over a full month) with 7 days still to go
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
Personally I'm not backing due to a mix of KS fatigue, other campaigns competing for my KS dosh (I can probably manage at most two of this, the Mierce dungeon bash, and Bones IV), and just not having been quite as captivated by the campaign as I'd hoped to be. There's lots of good here. I'm still confident the game will be solid. But for me there's not quite enough value in the core box, largely due to the duplicate sculpts.
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Post by: Adeptus Doritos
Early release picture of the new Lannister miniatures! I just got mine! SO ACCURATE!!!
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Post by: nickelkers
I don't think I'll book this, but I have to say I love the look of the minis
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Post by: MonkeyBallistic
 Mymearan wrote:I think this is a hard sell for many fans... it's a recreation of a much less "fantasy" period of Westeros history, when there were basically just men fighting against other men. I don't think people want that. They want to use Dany's dragons to burn white walkers, they want a legion of fearless Unsullied, dragonfire, screaming wildlings led by enormous giants, legions of Dothraki riders, Direwolves and Faceless Men... this is just so bland in comparison. It's like if GWs Lord of the Rings was nothing but Gondor and Rohan. No idea why they chose this period as the basis for the game.
You've absolutely hit the heart of the problem. It's as if they've tried to make the most boring version of GoT possible.
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Post by: Aeneades
It doesn't help that the TV show has moved further into High Fantasy than the books. I do like that each army has its own visual style that is reflected in different ways through the unit types and hopefully that is something they can carry on moving forward (I expect to see a nice Viking inspired Greyjoy army next year).
One thing that does appear to have changed is that CMON have said they are undecided on whether to release future factions direct to retail or through Kickstarter where as before it was direct to retail only (Kickstarter works nicely for me as hard to get CMON products at all or with a good discount in the UK).
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Post by: Vraptor98
This looks quite good, I wonder how the minis would scale up for use in AoS
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Post by: RoninXiC
Since they're the same size as the BLOODRAGE minis.. they are a perfect fit for Chaos Marauders or such. The BLOODRAGE minis I mean.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
 MonkeyBallistic wrote: Mymearan wrote:I think this is a hard sell for many fans... it's a recreation of a much less "fantasy" period of Westeros history, when there were basically just men fighting against other men. I don't think people want that. They want to use Dany's dragons to burn white walkers, they want a legion of fearless Unsullied, dragonfire, screaming wildlings led by enormous giants, legions of Dothraki riders, Direwolves and Faceless Men... this is just so bland in comparison. It's like if GWs Lord of the Rings was nothing but Gondor and Rohan. No idea why they chose this period as the basis for the game.
You've absolutely hit the heart of the problem. It's as if they've tried to make the most boring version of GoT possible.
I don't disagree with the KS being underwhelming and that the low fantasy starter set doesn't have the more exciting high fantasy elements but I don't think CMON could have released high fantasy factions in this KS. They needed to go low fantasy alt War of the Roses because that was the easiest and best way to create a balanced wargame. If they had a Daenerys faction with 3 dragons how would that not be game breaking? Is there any other faction with reliable anti-dragon capabilities? If the starter in this KS was Daenerys vs Lannisters the game would boil down to whether or not you get lucky rolls for a ballista shots before the dragons wiped out your army. That doesn't sound balanced or fun.
A white walker faction has similar issues. A white walker led wight horde army would be virtually unstoppable unless the opposing faction could equip a good sized portion of its army with dragon glass weapons or valyrian steel. If every opposing faction can equip themselves with dragon glass then you've taken away a lot of the coolness (no pun intended) and scariness of the white walker faction but if you don't then every battle fought against a white walker army plays out like the attack on Hardhome. Without having multiple units that can kill the white walkers you'll be defeated by a near endless supply of wights.
I think that's going to hurt the game in the long run, provided it gets a decent player base in the first place. ASoIaF is a low fantasy setting wherein a couple factions have access to nigh unstoppable high fantasy monsters/magic and within the canon of the books there's really no way to balance that out.
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Post by: Fireball
I am happy with less fantasy ... I like the Horus Heresy and so I can behind humans fighting humans.
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Post by: frankelee
Fireball wrote:I am happy with less fantasy ... I like the Horus Heresy and so I can behind humans fighting humans.
I agree. And there's a notable lack of good human armies for 32mm fantasy. There's no lack of dragon models, or undead armies, or any fantasy type. I just get the feeling looking at comments on the internet that a lack of fantastical options seems to be a minority complaint, there are way more people saying they weren't wowed by the value, they weren't sure they'd enjoy the game rules, or that miniature wargames aren't their normal thing and they're just not prepared to spend $150 to find out if they like them.
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Post by: MonkeyBallistic
Prestor Jon wrote: MonkeyBallistic wrote: Mymearan wrote:I think this is a hard sell for many fans... it's a recreation of a much less "fantasy" period of Westeros history, when there were basically just men fighting against other men. I don't think people want that. They want to use Dany's dragons to burn white walkers, they want a legion of fearless Unsullied, dragonfire, screaming wildlings led by enormous giants, legions of Dothraki riders, Direwolves and Faceless Men... this is just so bland in comparison. It's like if GWs Lord of the Rings was nothing but Gondor and Rohan. No idea why they chose this period as the basis for the game.
You've absolutely hit the heart of the problem. It's as if they've tried to make the most boring version of GoT possible.
I don't disagree with the KS being underwhelming and that the low fantasy starter set doesn't have the more exciting high fantasy elements but I don't think CMON could have released high fantasy factions in this KS. They needed to go low fantasy alt War of the Roses because that was the easiest and best way to create a balanced wargame. If they had a Daenerys faction with 3 dragons how would that not be game breaking? Is there any other faction with reliable anti-dragon capabilities? If the starter in this KS was Daenerys vs Lannisters the game would boil down to whether or not you get lucky rolls for a ballista shots before the dragons wiped out your army. That doesn't sound balanced or fun.
A white walker faction has similar issues. A white walker led wight horde army would be virtually unstoppable unless the opposing faction could equip a good sized portion of its army with dragon glass weapons or valyrian steel. If every opposing faction can equip themselves with dragon glass then you've taken away a lot of the coolness (no pun intended) and scariness of the white walker faction but if you don't then every battle fought against a white walker army plays out like the attack on Hardhome. Without having multiple units that can kill the white walkers you'll be defeated by a near endless supply of wights.
I think that's going to hurt the game in the long run, provided it gets a decent player base in the first place. ASoIaF is a low fantasy setting wherein a couple factions have access to nigh unstoppable high fantasy monsters/magic and within the canon of the books there's really no way to balance that out.
That's not something I'd considered, but I think you're absolutely right, all of which starts to make me think that perhaps GoT isn't a great setting for a rank and file wargame. Perhaps a scenario driven skirmish game focusing on characters might have worked better?
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Post by: Freytag93
I saw this on kickstarter and have been following it for the past 2 weeks. I've been trying to figure out how I feel about the game, and I am glad I came here because it seems like I'm not the only one with misgivings about it. 
I love the series (both the books and the show) and wargaming so I thought I'd be all over this. But the kickstarter itself has turned me off. I think one of the major reasons was as someone else said before: the split SG (3 for the dogs, 3 for the archers, 2 for the knights) just really killed the backing. It felt cheap, like CMON expected this game to hit $5,000,000 easy and therefore planned out everything so far from each other. I can understand why they could have expected that based on how well previous games like Zombicide have done. But as a backer just for this game, I felt like they were just trying to milk out more money before bringing in more actually value. Isn't that a point for a kickstarter: reward the people that the back it early? Why would I want second sculpts of models I can only use 1 of in a game? Why should I pay $30 a year early for a box that will sell for just $5 more?
Speaking of which, another thing that is bothering me is the retail price of the units. $35 for 12 minis with only 3-4 sculpts just smacks of GW. It's hard enough to convince people at a FLGS to try out a new wargame when demoing. Now if they want an actual army they need to spend $300+? Even with a starter you still need over a $100 to really fill out a tournament sized army. And yes, I know some would say "that's still cheaper than GW." But that is not the point. GW is not the standard we should be aiming for or basing our concept of value on. $35 for 12 somewhat mono-pose minis isn't good value IMO.
In the end, I will still watch this campaign til the end to see how it does. But it really feels like CMON shot themselves in the foot with this. I just don't really see the value of going in early rather than just waiting until it releases retail. I HOPE that the game does well and I WANT it to do well. But this kickstarter has just made me feel very meh about the game right off the back.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
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Post by: Pacific
Those are some bloody lovely cavalry figures right there.
I know they aren't steam powered, riding on a wave of skulls or firing laser beams from their eye-balls. But to me they look like the nastiest thing you have read about from the hundred years war, amplified by five, and look all the more terrifying for it.
Not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but I think in terms of the look and feel of the imagery they are trying to capture, CMoN are doing this very well.
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Post by: Fireball
Well, yesterday was successful. Because of a leaked card image I thought we would see Tully Cavaliers as heavy cavalry to oppose the Knights of Casterly Rock, but instead we got Tully Sworn Shields. Very nice. Lets see if more Tullys might become available.
The Flayed Men cavalry is going into Chaos direction a little too much for my taste as well, but they look very dynamic and indeed more like the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
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Post by: Aeneades
Tyrion does have a spiked helm in the first novel as he finds an inventive use of it during battle so adding spikes to armour does have some basis in the source material. Given House Bolton have a reputation which is feared I can see them being a bit theratrical with their armour design to build upon that fear. I don't agree it is a little too much though (they are also likely to do serious damage to their own horses with those very long flails).
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Post by: Huginn
Aeneades wrote:Tully Sword Shields have now joined the Stark forces as an addon.
Fishmen! They wanna be careful, straying close to GW IP here.
I don't mind the lack of fantasy, love me a bit of historical, and these have a bit of both. If I was buying, it would be to get the figures, not the rules. They are lovely renders. But.....pvc, I have blood rage and am happy with the quality of the figures, but only at the price that it sold at. The duplicate posing is a big turn off too. Price, pvc and duplicate posing are putting me off. Shame. If it was $100 I might overcome my reservations, but too rich and too samey at this point.
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Post by: Fireball
With GW switching to Primaris Marines which I just do not care for I look for something to throw my money at and as a fan of the books this is just the right thing. I am curious about the PVC quality combined with plastic weapons. Hopefully it will work out.
As I am mainly looking to paint, I do not care for duplicate poses either!
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Post by: richstrach
I haven't been following this too closely, but is there any indication of when it's going to retail? I'm a huge fan of the TV series and I *love* the books, but for some reason this hasn't grabbed me as a KS - probably the price, but also I'm not that bothered about the two factions in the starter. I'll wait to see what else is released, but I really just want a Night's Watch force!
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Post by: Aeneades
The leaked plan is retail April - May of next year with a second starter set with two new factions being released around 3 months later. They seem to be starting at the beginning of the war so could be a while before they reach the Nights watch.
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Post by: Fireball
CMON really needs to put up a teaser into the KS (last 48 hours) of what will be the content in the second start box ... I want the Baratheon brothers with their respective allies (especially the Tyrells) and the Greyjoys.
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Post by: DaveC
Just passed $1m so Bolton Cavalry are unlocked next is Littlefinger - Once unlocked Littlefinger will be the 150th miniature reaching that $1 per mini level.
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Post by: Fireball
oh, I love to hate Littlefinger
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Maybe its just their armor design, the barding design and the spikes, but they remind me of Chaos Knights, and I love them for it.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Yeah, those knights are looking pretty nice.
If one of the factions had been designed along those lines from the get-go I'd have probably looked into pledging.
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Post by: 455_PWR
I was on the fence with only two factions. With the new cavalry units and a full third faction, I'm all in. Game isn't the same as the show or how I envisioned the books, but the gameplay looks fast and fun!
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Post by: Stormonu
If I hadn't delved into Runewars, I would have picked this up. Alas, I'm sitting on three fantasy armies as it is, so I'm going to sadly have to pass.
I do need to pick up a Tyrion figure (though I'd prefer one based on the show) before the whole franchise fades back into obscurity.
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Post by: Sqorgar
 Stormonu wrote:If I hadn't delved into Runewars, I would have picked this up.
Ironically, my early meh-ness in response to this kickstarter ultimately resulted in me getting into Runewars with the money I set aside for this. It looks like the kickstarter has started showing more interesting models after the three stalled stretch goals for dogs, but the damage is done. Still think the IP has doomed this game to a limited existence, but I guess I can revisit that theory when the second starter set's contents are announced.
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Post by: Manchu
I also recently bought the RW core box ... and started painting the Daqans ... Played the introductory game against my friend's fully painted Waiqr. Game is OK but I'm not convinced about the minis. Part of it is definitely the material - but the bigger issue is the aesthetic. The ASoIaF mini game models don't have either problem, judging buy (a) the renders (I like the fantasy-style WotR) and (b) my Black Plague minis. Having said that, if I do end ip backing this, I really doubt I will bother painting the minis ... which is actually a plus for me, in a weird way. As to Rw, really not sure if I will make any further purchases for a while.
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Post by: Aeneades
Stormonu wrote:If I hadn't delved into Runewars, I would have picked this up. Alas, I'm sitting on three fantasy armies as it is, so I'm going to sadly have to pass.
You have three high fantasy armies, soiaf is low fantasy so a completely different genre so you get both.
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Post by: ulgurstasta
It's a shame, I really like the setting and miniatures look great but the 32mm scale just kills it for me. Oh well, the bolton knights might find some use as chaos knights I suppose.
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Post by: Manchu
What's the problem with 32s?
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Post by: Fireball
I guess its the missing compatibility to other systems which use 28mm?
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Post by: ulgurstasta
Exactly, I'm not fond of the scalecreep going on and try to keep to 28mm where I can, which would make these minis be a head above my historicals
I wasn't so bummed at first when I thought they where doing some boardgame/wargame hybrid, but seeing all the boxart makes it look it's gonna be a proper wargame.
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Post by: Manchu
Just FYI most "28mm" minis these days are actually 32mm. The scalecreep part already happened. Nowadays, companies are just finally starting to advertise the scale accurately. I guess if your current historicals collection are Perry minis, you might actually have a problem ... but these obvious fantasy designs are going to look weird next to (for example) Perry WotR figs no matter what.
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Post by: judgedoug
Fireball wrote:
I guess its the missing compatibility to other systems which use 28mm?
LOL what is 28mm? "Jaime Lannister will look very large leading my Jack Scruby sculpted ancient Hittites"
Even Perry miniatures are 31mm to the eye.
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Post by: DaveC
Littlefinger is unlocked that's 150 miniatures
next is Tryion in his combat gear
Thiago confirmed no more unit boxes added to the pledge level so the rest are paid add ons like this
comes with KS exclusive hound sculpt
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Post by: Aeneades
Fashion show runway hound.
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Post by: Manchu
Sandor looks cool.
So much for the 1060k mark, by the way!
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Post by: RoninXiC
Honestly, for the price, this has become quite the good deal. There also is a good start for a table top game in the making. I like it.
Will not back it though. No time for it 
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Post by: Prestor Jon
I like the miniatures and the rules and gameplay look fine but I just can't see myself continuing to support this game at retail. If everything was at Z:BP pricing I'd probably jump in. I've picked up some of the guest artist boxes for Z;BP off Amazon for nice prices but I don't see that being so easily down with ASOIAF. I don't want to find myself in the position of having the starter from the KS campaign but then talking myself out of ever spending the money to get more units or factions when they're released via retail.
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Post by: Undead_Love-Machine
Really on the fence about backing this one, love the books but this just hadn't grabbed me.....until I saw the Bolton horsemen. I'd love to have an army led by the Leech Lord!
Does anyone know if the figures are the same scale as the Dark Sword metals? I'd love to see a comparison pic if one is out there.
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Post by: Manchu
Next SG:
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Post by: frankelee
Wish it was a better value, but I'm definitely getting myself one starter pledge. It's disappointing to think I won't be adding onto it, though this game will not have any success at retail unless they drastically slash prices, and even then it probably wouldn't be the level of success they need for such a large game.
Once the unit boxes hit clearance prices, then it might become a fun game to build large armies with. Which may come as soon as November 2018.
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Post by: Manchu
Those are some pretty dire predictions, frankelee. The prices are in line with RW. Whether this kind of crossover product will find success is very much up in the air.
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Post by: Pacific
Hopefully it will have some mileage! A real waste of some lovely sculpts otherwise.
Manchu, as someone who has played Runewars (and a lot of other games going on your review articles) what's your first impression of this in comparison? Looks like similar kinds of mechanics in some areas but do you have any other thoughts on it?
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Post by: frankelee
 Manchu wrote:Those are some pretty dire predictions, frankelee. The prices are in line with RW. Whether this kind of crossover product will find success is very much up in the air.
I feel like that's the worst possible thing you could have in common with Runewars. And while it's definitely easier to be an unfair pessimist about new games, because most of them don't work out, that's also all the more reason to really pay attention to flaws. This game just costs too much, it's stuck between audiences in terms of board gamers and wargamers, and if you can't sell it to a lot of people on Kickstarter, you won't sell to MORE people in retail stores. You know?
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Post by: RoninXiC
How is this a bad value?
For 150$ you get 100+ detailed miniatures enough for 2 players including the ruleset. How is that bad value?
MORE THAN 100 MINIATURES?
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Post by: frankelee
RoninXiC wrote:How is this a bad value?
For 150$ you get 100+ detailed miniatures enough for 2 players including the ruleset. How is that bad value?
MORE THAN 100 MINIATURES?
Well, I'll speak for myself here, this is a Kickstarter campaign. So I expect a little bit more to go in the calculation than just price per mini. It's a year long interest free loan, done direct to manufacturer (doubling their revenue on it), and I'll pay (high) shipping. So that right there demands more than good value compared to something I can go to my gaming store, stick under my arm, and go home with right then and there.
Also we're talking about PVC miniatures, which are cheaper plastic miniatures (there's a reason green army men come in tubs of 144 for $10 at the Oriental Trading Company), so I'm not putting them on a pedestal like they're GW minis (which are so over-priced I rarely bother with them). And we're talking about an army scale game, which means individual troopers need to come cheap. The fact is, I can go to the Perry Brother's website and buy six boxes of Agincourt or War of the Roses minis, made in hard plastic, for around the price they're charging for this Kickstarter. Which would be about 216 to 250 infantryman with many weapon types available, and they'd be at your house next week.
Though the starter is a good enough value for me, I just feel like it should have ended up with 6 additional units, and that they'll make significantly less because it still looks a little light for the price. The real problem is the add-on units, which at $35 each is just a non-starter.
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Post by: ced1106
The Reaper KS core set already has 91 miniatures for $100, and it's only the first week. High fantasy is not low fantasy, and "rank and file" is not RPGs and miniature skirmish games, but, while Song isn't a bad value, particularly for fans of the work, Reaper is the *better* value, and anyone on this thread probably already has one or two rulesets they can use with the mini's anyway.
Unlike CMON's boardgames, this KS is just the starter set, and future additions will be sold at retail. This means backers will be not have as good a value as the KS, assuming CMON supports the game longer than a few years.
With CMON running two projects, Dwaven Forge's average of $1K per backer, and Reaper, July and August have been pretty demanding on the wallet! Myself, I've backed the Hand of Glory "hot swappable" RPG miniatures KS, for over $100 (for 27,000+ different miniature poses, btw. Now, at least for the RPG audience, *there's* value!).
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Post by: Manchu
As crossover product lines they have a lot in common in terms of physical features. In terms of mechanics, they are very different. RW emphasizes the need to predict what your opponent will do at the top of the turn. Like in other Flight Path games, RW feels like a wind-up toy: you make most of the decisions before anything happens and then see how your choices play out against your opponent's choices. ASOIAF is more about reacting to what's going on in the moment, including playing cards that can undermine your opponent's strategy as he is executing it.
I think the contrast to RW, the fact that RW has such a distinct gimmick in the order dials, has given some people the impression that ASOIAF is bland. But the way I look at it, ASOIAF's gimmick is that there are three levels of interconnected gameplay: (1) what's going on "on the battlefield" as far as the relative positions of the units and their inherent abilities; (2) what's going on with your hand of tactics cards; and (3) what's going on with the political resources. There is nothing like that going on with RW.
This makes sense - ASOIAF minis game enjoys a setting thick with details that is very well known. It makes sense that the game should give you a sense of the battles taking place in the context of a larger world. By contrast, RW is about as generic as it gets. TBH I picked up RW (and Battlelore 2nd) to try the mechanics, despite not caring about the setting (what setting?) and kind of hating the models.
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Post by: Aeneades
It's looking like we should unlock Roderick in the next 5 or 6 hours going by the increases over the last 24 hours. Things have really picked up here but it's looking unlikely that we will see any more stretch goal units which is a shame as another Mercenary unit or two would have given all backers 3 complete 30 points armies with quite a few options.
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Post by: Manchu
It's a little odd to have gotten plastic versions of just two of the several token types that come in the starter. I wonder what the plan is there. I can understand that they were not super exciting as stretch goals. But it does seem strange to only have plastic tokens for some of the token types.
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Post by: DaveC
I wouldn't be surprised if they are holding the remaining tokens to release in one larger SG during the last 48 hours when pledging has picked up to the point that there won't be too much grumbling about it - feed in enough individual NCU/Commander miniatures and people will be glad of the change. They definitely were going to drip feed them in earlier but it didn't go to plan.
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Post by: Sining
ced1106 wrote:The Reaper KS core set already has 91 miniatures for $100, and it's only the first week. High fantasy is not low fantasy, and "rank and file" is not RPGs and miniature skirmish games, but, while Song isn't a bad value, particularly for fans of the work, Reaper is the *better* value, and anyone on this thread probably already has one or two rulesets they can use with the mini's anyway.
Unlike CMON's boardgames, this KS is just the starter set, and future additions will be sold at retail. This means backers will be not have as good a value as the KS, assuming CMON supports the game longer than a few years.
With CMON running two projects, Dwaven Forge's average of $1K per backer, and Reaper, July and August have been pretty demanding on the wallet! Myself, I've backed the Hand of Glory "hot swappable" RPG miniatures KS, for over $100 (for 27,000+ different miniature poses, btw. Now, at least for the RPG audience, *there's* value!).
Reaper minis are also made of a much worse material than CMON boardgame plastic though.
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Post by: Manchu
$1095k done - Ser Rodrick's in ... what's next?
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Post by: Chikout
The kickstarter has been accelerating a bit as it gets towards the end. Your $150 pledge gets you more than 150 minis now. I have never backed a kickstarter before but this is starting to look pretty tempting.
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Post by: Manchu
I don't like (or dislike) ASOIAF/GoT but the value is clear to me.
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Post by: Fireball
Grand Maester Pycelle ... as Lannister NCU
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Post by: DaveC
Yep ..
I suspect that rounds out the Lannister Hero box which will retail with Tywin, Sandor, Tyrion, Pycelle and the High Sparrow.
That leaves 1 more for the Stark box and then it will be interesting to see what they do with the Mercs as they have 3 \heroes to date. Could be 3 more NCU/Commanders to go yet.
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Post by: ced1106
Sining wrote:Reaper minis are also made of a much worse material than CMON boardgame plastic though.
I was replying to a post about the quantity of miniatures, not the quality.
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Post by: Illumini
Great looking miniatures! Anybody know the scale? Will they mesh well with (older) GW miniatures?
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Post by: Fireball
 Illumini wrote:Great looking miniatures! Anybody know the scale? Will they mesh well with (older) GW miniatures?
32mm so probably not
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Post by: frankelee
Illumini wrote:Great looking miniatures! Anybody know the scale? Will they mesh well with (older) GW miniatures?
They're the same scale as Blood Rage minis, which are at least closer to my older GW minis than my newer GW minis are. So long as you ignore those old, gigantic heads!
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Post by: DaveC
A bit OT but seems like a good place to ask... does anyone have a Blood Rage or Zc:BP mini and a Frostgrave plastic Barbarian mini that they could take a size comparison picture of. I want to see if they are close enough to use as Wildlings as I have 4 boxes currently unused. (I'd check against my Zc:BP stuff but it's all in storage at the moment).
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Post by: Sining
I suspect the RRPs will actually be lower. I just checked my massive darkness KS and it's 27 for each hero+monster add-on but rrp is 25 on MM
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Post by: Freytag93
frankelee wrote:RoninXiC wrote:How is this a bad value? For 150$ you get 100+ detailed miniatures enough for 2 players including the ruleset. How is that bad value? MORE THAN 100 MINIATURES?
Also we're talking about PVC miniatures, which are cheaper plastic miniatures (there's a reason green army men come in tubs of 144 for $10 at the Oriental Trading Company), so I'm not putting them on a pedestal like they're GW minis (which are so over-priced I rarely bother with them). And we're talking about an army scale game, which means individual troopers need to come cheap... ...The real problem is the add-on units, which at $35 each is just a non-starter.
This, in a nut shell, is why I am very hesitant to pledge and support the game. The kickstarter has decent value, but if you want to actually build a community around it to be able to get games, you have to convince people to pay $35 for 13 PVC limited pose minis.
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Post by: Aeneades
CMON have over estimated the RRP of some Kickstarter addons in a few campaigns recently so I wouldn't be surprised if the boxes are actually around the $28-30 RRP when they make it to retail and then store discount on top.
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Post by: DaveC
Weirwood Tree and Corpse pile add on (in coloured plastic)
and the previous terrain sets now come in coloured plastic
Please note the cardboard terrain quantities in the Work In Progress Rulebook are incorrect. The quantities present in the Plastic Terrain Sets actually match the correct quantities of what will come in the Starter Set as cardboard tokens:
[1x] Trees
[3x] Stakes -(reverse)- Hedge
[1x] Palisade -(reverse)- Low Wall
[2x] Palisade -(reverse)- Ruined Wall
[1x] Bog
[1x] Weirwood Tree
[4x] Corpse Pile
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Post by: Gallahad
Re: Corpsepile-Sometimes I wonder what the factory workers in China think when they see these things come through. I'm going to guess that the concept of a board game with miniatures is likely a bit foreign to them. They must just shake their heads like "Who plays with corpse pile toys?"
I personally am not backing this because it is stupid expensive. CMON makes some of the best PVC miniatures out there, but PVC is still inferior to metal, resin, and HIPS plastic. In likely less than a month I will be able to order Massive Darkness enemy boxes (like the Troglodytes) for $25 from Miniature Market. It will include 24 miniatures in six unique sculpts, one of which is a giant monster. Or...for 20% more I can get half the contents that will be delivered in 1.5 years from now by buying an add-on for this game! This box should be stuffed to the brim with miniatures for big giant battles.
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Post by: DaveC
Pycelle done and that completes the Lannister Hero box (MSRP $35)
Next Varys (Mercenary)
That leaves one Stark (probably a Tully) and one Mercenary to complete the box sets.
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Post by: Fireball
I hope it will be Blackfish and Bronn, although the latter is also closely attached to the Lannisters
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Post by: Mr Morden
That corpse pile is a cool thing - would be a nice piece to go with my undead armies.
Likely wait till retail and see what things I can pick up as so much unpainted stuff lying about.
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Post by: angel of death 007
I decided to back it. Not sure really what to add on as with many of you mentioned the cost and possibility of being available cheaper. But overall I don't see the argument over the price it is a tad higher then most KS for the initial buy in but at around $1 a model and pretty straight forward game. Games that are easy to learn yet difficult to master make the best games IMHO.
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Post by: Grinshanks
I'm in. I'm going to get enough add ons to ensure I can play all three factions at small points so I can play out the box. Not looking to start another wargame fully.
Something like a miniature version of pocket battles would be fine haha!
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Post by: Sining
Depending what base size they're on, those might make good objective markers for certain other games
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Post by: Aeneades
Sining wrote:Depending what base size they're on, those might make good objective markers for certain other games
They are on the same size bases as the infantry so 30mm I believe.
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Post by: DaveC
Blackfish unlocked next is Reek to finish the merc box. (Sorry no pics on phone)
The Stark box isn't finished apparently Maege Mormont doesn't go in that box so there is 1 last Stark left.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
2 days left, and it's "only" $1.2M?
That seems disappointingly low for such a high profile property by CMoN.
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Post by: Aeneades
 JohnHwangDD wrote:2 days left, and it's "only" $1.2M?
That seems disappointingly low for such a high profile property by CMoN.
Difference between a miniature board game and miniatures war game. There just isn't anywhere near as much interest in the war game market compared to board games.
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Post by: Flashman
Love the Reek model and art.
And they've done a Blackfish model now.
Must resist...
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Post by: frankelee
JohnHwangDD wrote:2 days left, and it's "only" $1.2M?
That seems disappointingly low for such a high profile property by CMoN.
Lots of things done wrong by CMON about this campaign, mostly before it even began. It's clear from their financials that games like 40K and X-Wing make more revenue a year than all of CMON does, and I think they thought this was going to be a surefire hit. And got blinded by the dollar signs in their eyes. No way they would have bought the license if they knew the Kickstarter and interest would be so small, in my opinion.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Of course, if they want to chase that 40k type money, they could always continue to push and refine their already existing games likes Dark Age and Wrath of Kings...
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Post by: judgedoug
Yes they will, as GW minis are 32mm+ scale.
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Post by: Aeneades
Can't link as on mobile but next stretch is Bran on Hodars back and Summer (desperate single model unit like Ghost).
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Aeneades wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:2 days left, and it's "only" $1.2M?
That seems disappointingly low for such a high profile property by CMoN.
Difference between a miniature board game and miniatures war game. There just isn't anywhere near as much interest in the war game market compared to board games.
Too true! Had this been designed as a territory control game like Blood Rage or Rising Sun, I think that would have done much better. Rehashing Warhammer Fantasy Battles was an instant turnoff to me, too.
____
frankelee wrote:Lots of things done wrong by CMON about this campaign, mostly before it even began. It's clear from their financials that games like 40K and X-Wing make more revenue a year than all of CMON does, and I think they thought this was going to be a surefire hit. And got blinded by the dollar signs in their eyes. No way they would have bought the license if they knew the Kickstarter and interest would be so small, in my opinion.
I agree that CMoN had high hopes, but I'm not surprised by the result.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
One of the podcasts I follow made the very valid point is that billing it as Song of Ice and Fire means that TV game of thrones fans who've never looked at the books won't instantly recognise what it is
even though it's a longer title they really should have gone with The Game of Thrones: Song of Ice and Fire that would have probably got a bunch of extra click thoughs to at least look at it
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Post by: ecurtz
I'm sure that's a licensing thing and they would have had Game of Thrones in the title if it was allowed.
The new plateau terrain looks nice. I'm certainly at least leaving in my $1 and waiting to see how I feel after Massive Darkness arrives, if not yet committed to the full pledge.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
I don't get why they're making the terrain exclusive. Like if they made boxes of three tree sets I think they'd sell quite well at retail.
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Post by: DaveC
Yeah I really don't understand why the terrain is exclusive this would sell well for years to come.
Speaking of terrain they've added low hills as an add on and now there is a bundle deal.
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Post by: RoninXiC
just stop calling more than 1 million dollars a failure please. You're making a fool out of yourselves.
This is one of the most succesfull kickstarters of alle times in the miniatures category. Might not be THE one but 1,2 million is still A LOT.
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Post by: Aeneades
This is now the second highest Miniatures Wargame kickstarter, the highest being Robotech at $1.4 million which failed to deliver the majority of the rewards.
To compare to other wargames, Mantic's highest Wargame kickstarter was for Warpath and only managed to bring in $485,000. Both Kings of War were around the $355-360k mark. They achieved more for the first Deadzone but that was a miniatures boardgame (and even included boardgame in the title).
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Post by: frankelee
They should have just refused to put any rules in, it would have made at least as much as Reaper Bones then. lol
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Post by: Krinsath
Aeneades wrote:This is now the second highest Miniatures Wargame kickstarter, the highest being Robotech at $1.4 million which failed to deliver the majority of the rewards.
To compare to other wargames, Mantic's highest Wargame kickstarter was for Warpath and only managed to bring in $485,000. Both Kings of War were around the $355-360k mark. They achieved more for the first Deadzone but that was a miniatures boardgame (and even included boardgame in the title).
I'd call into question if there's an appreciable distinction between the two then. DeadZone is a skirmish-level wargame set in the WarPath universe, and they're the exact same miniatures used in both; the latter simply uses more. While movement is simplified compared to a battle game, it seems rather weak to say that's the distinction.
This project still beats it, but it calls into question the very point being raised by the detractors. A no-name setting, certainly relatively speaking, was able to pull down "in the ballpark" amounts (I suspect in large part due to the terrain offering), and it is currently losing to a project based on an old cartoon from the 80s. I think the 24 hour bump will put it up higher than Robotech at the closing bell so calling it a failure is a touch of hyperbole since, as pointed out, it will be the highest miniatures wargame. On the flip side, I suspect it's also exaggerating to say it was anywhere near the level of success CMON expected at the outset.
For me, the offering didn't grab me. I wanted to like it, and some of the sculpts are very nice, but to me it's mass-battles without the mass. Too many other things on the table right now to make space for it, but maybe in the coming year when they get it out to retail it'll get a second look.
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Post by: Albino Squirrel
That chainmail looks terrible.
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Post by: LunarSol
Kickstarters create a weird herd mindset with people I've noticed. It's not okay for a Kickstarter to be a huge success and not to be a part of it, so if its not personally appealing people need to see it as a failure to justify not jumping in. Personally I find this kind of disappointing and I'm not particularly interested in it, but its certainly not a failure. I think a lot of people are really asking if it will be a successfully miniatures game with an active playerbase, but ultimately funding level hasn't been a very good indication of that regardless.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
RoninXiC wrote:just stop calling more than 1 million dollars a failure please.
Really?
$5M on Green Horde.
$4M on Rising Sun
$3.5M of Massive Darkness
World of Smog was $1.1M, and that's a completely unknown property compared to A Game of Thrones.
Relative to CMoN's track record, and what might otherwise expect, this is a clear and glaring failure.
It's like DC fanboys arguing that Batman vs Superman making $850M globally was a "success" when it was clearly budgeted and marketed to make Avengers money.
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Post by: Jebus10000
JohnHwangDD wrote:RoninXiC wrote:just stop calling more than 1 million dollars a failure please.
Really?
$5M on Green Horde.
$4M on Rising Sun
$3.5M of Massive Darkness
World of Smog was $1.1M, and that's a completely unknown property compared to A Game of Thrones.
Relative to CMoN's track record, and what might otherwise expect, this is a clear and glaring failure.
It's like DC fanboys arguing that Batman vs Superman making $850M globally was a "success" when it was clearly budgeted and marketed to make Avengers money.
Except those are all board games, not wargames. The only thing they have in common is they were by CMoN and have miniatures. A board game will always sell better than a wargame just based on the fact that there are tons more board gamers out there than wargamers.
A better comparison would be to CMoN's other wargame they did, Wrath of Kings, which finished at around $720K. And like was said earlier, this is already the second highest amount for a miniatures wargame ever on Kickstarter, and this amount probably wouldn't even crack the top 50 for board games
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
That just means that CMoN F'd up by not making a GoT miniatures board game.
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Post by: Aeneades
JohnHwangDD wrote:That just means that CMoN F'd up by not making a GoT miniatures board game.
FFG have the Song of Ice and Fire board game licence, Dark Sword have the miniature licence which they have shared with CMON to make this game.
I think a skirmish game would have done significantly better than a unit based wargame but less true to the source material.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I wasn't aware of the FFG game. It looks great, aside from the total lack of miniatures! Throw a couple hundred bases of multi-based 5-8mm miniatures on the map, and it's a winner.
But if it can't be like that, it could certainly have been done like CMoN's Dogs of War. Or a revamp of Diplomacy / Machiavelli.
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Post by: frankelee
If CMON had the wisdom of the crowds to tell them nobody plays miniature wargames they wouldn't have bothered. It's beyond all debate that they assumed this game would be far larger than it is. Why this is so hard to accept as an objective fact, who knows? Why are people willing to buy minis from Kickstarters with no rules more than they are this game? Can't figure out to do with the rulebook and it frightens them, probably.
For my part I don't view this KS as a failure, but it's probably 3 to 5 million dollars lighter than CMON was expecting. And given that top miniature games like 40K, X-Wing, and Armada individually make more money than CMON does with everything it sells, I don't think their expectations were unreasonable.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
Aeneades wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:That just means that CMoN F'd up by not making a GoT miniatures board game.
FFG have the Song of Ice and Fire board game licence, Dark Sword have the miniature licence which they have shared with CMON to make this game.
I think a skirmish game would have done significantly better than a unit based wargame but less true to the source material.
Well if they're so smart why don't they build a time machine, get the board game license, and then not have this UTTER FAILURE of a project! What a bunch of clowns!
The game was going to be limited by not having the show likenesses (or being called Game of Thrones), so this is more targeting the book readers who ALSO want a rank and file wargame, which seem to be less favored than skirmish ones anyways. Niche within a niche within a niche. They seem to have done OK all things considered.
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Post by: Sining
I expected more but as others have stated, it's a wargame not a boardgame. And afaik, the top wargame funded on KS was Robotech for 1.4 mill? And that was during they heyday of KS
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Post by: Sythica
If they had raised 3 to 4 million, they would have definitely killed this game for retail. They already did that with Wrath of Kings.
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Post by: Chikout
Sining wrote:I expected more but as others have stated, it's a wargame not a boardgame. And afaik, the top wargame funded on KS was Robotech for 1.4 mill? And that was during they heyday of KS
A total which this will beat comfortably. It is at 1.35 million now and has been adding more than 5,000 an hour for the last couple of days. It will probably reach about 1.5 million in the end which is a very healthy number, just not the Smash hit coolminiornot hoped for.
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Post by: Sining
Sythica wrote:If they had raised 3 to 4 million, they would have definitely killed this game for retail. They already did that with Wrath of Kings.
Wrath of Kings only raised 700k though.
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Post by: Sythica
Exactly. It doesn't take much to kill a minis game for retail. 5 fully playable factions already delivered before retail? Finished.
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Post by: angel of death 007
frankelee wrote:If CMON had the wisdom of the crowds to tell them nobody plays miniature wargames they wouldn't have bothered. It's beyond all debate that they assumed this game would be far larger than it is. Why this is so hard to accept as an objective fact, who knows? Why are people willing to buy minis from Kickstarters with no rules more than they are this game? Can't figure out to do with the rulebook and it frightens them, probably.
For my part I don't view this KS as a failure, but it's probably 3 to 5 million dollars lighter than CMON was expecting. And given that top miniature games like 40K, X-Wing, and Armada individually make more money than CMON does with everything it sells, I don't think their expectations were unreasonable.
Having backed numerous Kickstarters I can say that the Kickstarter crowd is in it to get some value for their money but dont get the instant gratification. When I backed Raging Heroes Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2, I did so to get a Sisters of Battle Army. Raging Heroes has absolutely no rules for their models. Given the track record for TGG1 which I also backed and was somewhere close to 2 years behind their estimated schedule I knew going in that TGG2 was going to be way past their release schedule. When GW did a partial release of their 30k sisters during the ever failing claim at trying to revive their failing 40k from the disaster of 6th and lingering 7th edition they did what everyone expected and released sister models that were very blah. So even though I spent a small mint for TGG2 sisters and waited for Raging Heroes to fall massively behind schedule at the end of the day I got a very nice sisters army which GW just doesn't offer and they made the models sexy without going overboard, which GW just has never been able to do with most of it's female models. The mega downside is the fact that Raging Heroes used resin which is the biggest pain to work with in the world. Aside from that they still beat GW to the punch and did it better then GW ever could.
CMON offers everything up front and gives a lot of models and limited edition kickstarter exclusives that drive their product up and people order them up in bulk to resale. GW marks all their stuff up to rediculous levels and puts out more publications then models. I thought 8th was going to be the time for change but looks like they are reverting back to their rules on top of rules with publishing more codexes in less then a year then most book companies at college text book prices. $50 for a book from which about 5-10 pages are actually useful for gaming is rediculous. GW owns the table top miniature games market because much like Xfinity there is no real competition so people just accept it. The wargamers know this and just accept their high price rises and rediculousness because they like miniature war games.
Had CMON went Game of Thrones to follow suit with the ever popular television series they would have killed it because most people can easily recognize the characters and people would have bought into it just for that. It was like when thy put out two walking dead kickstarters. Mantic didn't have the television version or else it would have knocked it out of the ball park. Instead their competition got it and while Mantic's released two waves their competition has yet to deliver the initial game. Had Mantic have bought and did a Game of Thrones miniature war game I think it would have really took off but Mantic just doesn't seem willing to pay the money for the proper licensing to really take them to the next level.
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Post by: Aeneades
Alternate KS exclusive Assault Veteran and Bronn have now been unlocked.
Next up are the remaining plastic tokens (in one goal) and a Maimed Hostage version of Jaime which you deploy to an opposing players unit as a debuff.
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Post by: Moopy
More minis for my D&D game.
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Post by: frankelee
I know that's why I don't buy Wrath of Kings minis, they did too well at Kickstarter. Oh wait, no it's not.
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Post by: infinite_array
frankelee wrote:I know that's why I don't buy Wrath of Kings minis, they did too well at Kickstarter. Oh wait, no it's not.
I'd buy more Shael Han stuff if it was ever released or in stock.
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Post by: DaveC
It's passed Robotechs $1,442,312 now.
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Post by: Fireball
New stretchgoals
Mounted Blackfish 1.5
Mounted Mountain 1.55
The Iron Throne 1.6
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
IN for $1. If the pledge manager opens at an opportune time, I'll get the sweet spot pledge. I'll most likely sell off the rules and chits for cheap, though, and maybe some of the more boring minis.
Are the rules at all worth having for gamers who don't need the minis?
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Post by: Dr_Keenbean
infinite_array wrote:frankelee wrote:I know that's why I don't buy Wrath of Kings minis, they did too well at Kickstarter. Oh wait, no it's not.
I'd buy more Shael Han stuff if it was ever released or in stock.
As someone who adores Wrath of Kings - I'm currently painting up my 3rd army and playing in a tournament later this month - CMON's treatment of it and the lack of distribution brings me tremendous sadness.
Anyway, I backed this for $1. I love the models but starting another wargame just isn't on the docket for me right now. I'll have to play a demo before the pledge manager opens up.
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Post by: judgedoug
JohnHwangDD wrote:I wasn't aware of the FFG game. It looks great, aside from the total lack of miniatures! Throw a couple hundred bases of multi-based 5-8mm miniatures on the map, and it's a winner.
But if it can't be like that, it could certainly have been done like CMoN's Dogs of War. Or a revamp of Diplomacy / Machiavelli.
Hahah hahhha a Diplomacy reskin haha haha and you think it would make any money at all
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Post by: DrNo172000
frankelee wrote:If CMON had the wisdom of the crowds to tell them nobody plays miniature wargames they wouldn't have bothered. It's beyond all debate that they assumed this game would be far larger than it is. Why this is so hard to accept as an objective fact, who knows? Why are people willing to buy minis from Kickstarters with no rules more than they are this game? Can't figure out to do with the rulebook and it frightens them, probably.
For my part I don't view this KS as a failure, but it's probably 3 to 5 million dollars lighter than CMON was expecting. And given that top miniature games like 40K, X-Wing, and Armada individually make more money than CMON does with everything it sells, I don't think their expectations were unreasonable.
You got any sources for that hyperbole or those "objective" facts just based on your feelings?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 judgedoug wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:I wasn't aware of the FFG game. It looks great, aside from the total lack of miniatures! Throw a couple hundred bases of multi-based 5-8mm miniatures on the map, and it's a winner.
But if it can't be like that, it could certainly have been done like CMoN's Dogs of War. Or a revamp of Diplomacy / Machiavelli.
Hahah hahhha a Diplomacy reskin haha haha and you think it would make any money at all
A plain Dip reskin? No.
But then, you forget this is CMoN.
An uber-Ameritrash Machiavelli-based "GoT"-branded game with boatloads of minis on a oversized deluxe printed board and cards for orders? Yes, yes it would. Easily.
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Post by: judgedoug
JohnHwangDD wrote:An uber-Ameritrash Machiavelli-based "GoT"-branded game with boatloads of minis on a oversized deluxe printed board and cards for orders? Yes, yes it would. Easily.
So it would be competing against FFG's Game of Thrones which is literally what you are asking for, sans minis.
Do you even know the market you are attempting to project your wisdom on?
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Post by: frankelee
 DrNo172000 wrote:frankelee wrote:If CMON had the wisdom of the crowds to tell them nobody plays miniature wargames they wouldn't have bothered. It's beyond all debate that they assumed this game would be far larger than it is. Why this is so hard to accept as an objective fact, who knows? Why are people willing to buy minis from Kickstarters with no rules more than they are this game? Can't figure out to do with the rulebook and it frightens them, probably.
For my part I don't view this KS as a failure, but it's probably 3 to 5 million dollars lighter than CMON was expecting. And given that top miniature games like 40K, X-Wing, and Armada individually make more money than CMON does with everything it sells, I don't think their expectations were unreasonable.
You got any sources for that hyperbole or those "objective" facts just based on your feelings?
Do you have an intelligent question for me, or are you just a whining fanboy? Also, if you're not smart enough to go look at the campaign and see how it was run, then you're not smart enough to understand my explanation anyway. It's quite a catch-22 you put people who know what they're talking about in. Automatically Appended Next Post: judgedoug wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:I wasn't aware of the FFG game. It looks great, aside from the total lack of miniatures! Throw a couple hundred bases of multi-based 5-8mm miniatures on the map, and it's a winner.
But if it can't be like that, it could certainly have been done like CMoN's Dogs of War. Or a revamp of Diplomacy / Machiavelli.
Hahah hahhha a Diplomacy reskin haha haha and you think it would make any money at all
Everyone called Rising Sun a Diplomacy re-working...
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Post by: judgedoug
frankelee wrote: DrNo172000 wrote:frankelee wrote:If CMON had the wisdom of the crowds to tell them nobody plays miniature wargames they wouldn't have bothered. It's beyond all debate that they assumed this game would be far larger than it is. Why this is so hard to accept as an objective fact, who knows? Why are people willing to buy minis from Kickstarters with no rules more than they are this game? Can't figure out to do with the rulebook and it frightens them, probably.
For my part I don't view this KS as a failure, but it's probably 3 to 5 million dollars lighter than CMON was expecting. And given that top miniature games like 40K, X-Wing, and Armada individually make more money than CMON does with everything it sells, I don't think their expectations were unreasonable.
You got any sources for that hyperbole or those "objective" facts just based on your feelings?
Do you have an intelligent question for me, or are you just a whining fanboy? Also, if you're not smart enough to go look at the campaign and see how it was run, then you're not smart enough to understand my explanation anyway. It's quite a catch-22 you put people who know what they're talking about in.
This is amazing - when four logical fallacies are questioned about being hyperbole, they are answered with another logical fallacy.
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Post by: DrNo172000
frankelee wrote: DrNo172000 wrote:frankelee wrote:If CMON had the wisdom of the crowds to tell them nobody plays miniature wargames they wouldn't have bothered. It's beyond all debate that they assumed this game would be far larger than it is. Why this is so hard to accept as an objective fact, who knows? Why are people willing to buy minis from Kickstarters with no rules more than they are this game? Can't figure out to do with the rulebook and it frightens them, probably.
For my part I don't view this KS as a failure, but it's probably 3 to 5 million dollars lighter than CMON was expecting. And given that top miniature games like 40K, X-Wing, and Armada individually make more money than CMON does with everything it sells, I don't think their expectations were unreasonable.
You got any sources for that hyperbole or those "objective" facts just based on your feelings?
Do you have an intelligent question for me, or are you just a whining fanboy? Also, if you're not smart enough to go look at the campaign and see how it was run, then you're not smart enough to understand my explanation anyway. It's quite a catch-22 you put people who know what they're talking about in.
Fanboy? I don't actually like CMON as a business (own a grand total of two of their games, Zombicide because I got it for 90% off, and Blood Rage cause Eric Lang is a fantastic designer) but you pretend to know what CMON's expected ROI is without any evidence at all other than "look at the Kickstarter hurr durr durr". On the contrary I make no claims to whether this was successful in the eyes of CMON or not, you do. But instead of providing evidence for your points you choose to shift the burden of proof and attack my character. Bravo, I guess by the rules of the internet you win. Truth though, it is you in fact who has no idea what you are talking about, which is why you can produce no evidence. You also claim to know the revenues for sales numbers of specific product lines, but can you actually post them please?
The truth is the people commenting here crack me up as it's been proven time and time again in economics that things like past performance aren't indicators of future performance and product success can not be predicted either. Daniel Kahenman has already shown that monkeys throwing darts are as accurate as the so called expert opinions. Then there are people like you who believe they can glean expected ROI by looking at the how the Kickstarter was run, but refuse to articulate that point as to make it worth it.
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Post by: Theophony
judgedoug wrote:frankelee wrote: DrNo172000 wrote:frankelee wrote:If CMON had the wisdom of the crowds to tell them nobody plays miniature wargames they wouldn't have bothered. It's beyond all debate that they assumed this game would be far larger than it is. Why this is so hard to accept as an objective fact, who knows? Why are people willing to buy minis from Kickstarters with no rules more than they are this game? Can't figure out to do with the rulebook and it frightens them, probably.
For my part I don't view this KS as a failure, but it's probably 3 to 5 million dollars lighter than CMON was expecting. And given that top miniature games like 40K, X-Wing, and Armada individually make more money than CMON does with everything it sells, I don't think their expectations were unreasonable.
You got any sources for that hyperbole or those "objective" facts just based on your feelings?
Do you have an intelligent question for me, or are you just a whining fanboy? Also, if you're not smart enough to go look at the campaign and see how it was run, then you're not smart enough to understand my explanation anyway. It's quite a catch-22 you put people who know what they're talking about in.
This is amazing - when four logical fallacies are questioned about being hyperbole, they are answered with another logical fallacy.
Wait. He said it was beyond debate.  Who do we think we are to question someone stating incontrovertible FACT online in an opinion forum.
For shame! I tells ya. FOR SHAME
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Post by: RiTides
Let's avoid namecalling / back and forth, please - Rule #1 on Dakka is "be polite".
Back to the topic of this thread - thanks all.
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Post by: DaveC
Anyway..... mounted Blackfish is unlocked
Next up The mounted Mountain @$1,550k
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I wonder if the campaign would have been more successful if the last SoIaF book was actually any good.
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Post by: RiTides
Comparing those two horses is pretty funny . I guess that's what it takes to hold up "The Mountain"!
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Post by: DaveC
RiTides wrote:Comparing those two horses is pretty funny . I guess that's what it takes to hold up "The Mountain"!
oh I forgot the side by side
given the Mountain is 8 feet tall it would take some horse to carry him in full armour. The horse is probably a little too big - I think someone hasn't scaled the side by side image properly or else the Blackfish is child sized!
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Wow that blackfish mini is conventional.
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Post by: Pacific
You're on fine form tonight Bob, jumping between this thread (or should I say 'stage') and the Mierce one, dropping little snide comments as you go!
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Post by: Morghot
DaveC wrote: RiTides wrote:Comparing those two horses is pretty funny . I guess that's what it takes to hold up "The Mountain"!
oh I forgot the side by side
given the Mountain is 8 feet tall it would take some horse to carry him in full armour. The horse is probably a little too big - I think someone hasn't scaled the side by side image properly or else the Blackfish is child sized!
Yep let's hope this, this mounted mountain and the last hodor shown both are not correctly size in comparison to others!
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
judgedoug wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:An uber-Ameritrash Machiavelli-based "GoT"-branded game with boatloads of minis on a oversized deluxe printed board and cards for orders? Yes, yes it would. Easily.
So it would be competing against FFG's Game of Thrones which is literally what you are asking for, sans minis.
Did you not read what you previously quoted from me? Here, I'll quote myself: JohnHwangDD wrote:I wasn't aware of the FFG game. It looks great, aside from the total lack of miniatures! Throw a couple hundred bases of multi-based 5-8mm miniatures on the map, and it's a winner.
On KS, miniatures boardgames do significantly better than non-miniatures boardgames. CMoN does among the best miniatures boardgames on KS. CMoN's well-established Zombicide pulled $4M and $5M. CMoN doing a GoT miniatures boardgame would pull $5M+, notwithstanding the existence of FFG's GoT game.
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Post by: Aeneades
I am sure that if CMON had been allowed to develop a Song of Ice and Fire miniature board game then they would have done that instead and pulled in a record amount on Kickstarter but the licence they have is restricted to war games. CMON would have hoped that this project went better but given that it's a rank and file miniature wargame I think it did about as well as it possibly could have. A skirmish in the style of Deadzone or Mordheim would have pulled in quite a bit more I think but wouldn't have been true to the source material. Thiago was also a real boast here as he managed to revitalise the project when he came back from paternity leave. Automatically Appended Next Post: For one final time, here is what the base level contains -  There is one final stretch goal outstanding -   And here are the additional purchases (most of those units already appear in the base game) -  
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Wait, where's Drogon?
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Post by: griffen127
Well this is now he highest funded mintiures game in KS history. I don't understand why people say this is a failure. For what this is it's done very well.
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Post by: Alpharius
It's a 'failure' only in so much as we're making the assumption that this *could* have made 2x or 3x more than it is?
I'm not sure why we had this expectation, but...we did!
I *think* it is same to assume (uh oh!) that CMON thought so too - at least, that's what some of my sources are hinting at.
Combine all that with the somewhat slow (debatable!) start this got off to, and with how long it took to break $1M and...here we are!
Glad to see that a certain other campaign has now been knocked off of the 'highest ever funded wargame' pedestal though - so I'm grateful to this campaign for that, if nothing else!
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 griffen127 wrote:Well this is now he highest funded mintiures game in KS history.
I don't understand why people say this is a failure. For what this is it's done very well.
Kingdom Death : Monster 1.5 is the highest funded miniatures game in KS history.
If the goal was to reach $5M, and it only reaches $1.5M, that is a failure. That's why I brought up DC's Crazy Steve vs Space Jesus - it was budgeted and marketed with plan to pull well over $1.5 Billion globally (like the Avengers), but didn't evem make $1 Billion, so it's a failure. Now, had it been budgeted like Deadpool (<$60M production budget), then a $800 Million gross would be a huge success.
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Post by: Aeneades
Sounds like there is more to come in the Kickstarter with a little over 2 hours to go (plus an update on what the licence covers and the games future) -
Hi everyone -
Jim from Dark Sword Miniatures here.
Wow - AWESOME job on crushing all of the stretch goals that Michael of House Bolton (Michael Bolton for short..), Thiago and team have lined up for you all to date. Lets rally for that Iron Throne stretch goal. Lets see what could possibly be revealed beyond $1.6 Million..
To answer a couple questions I see pop up from time to time -
1. Dark Sword Miniatures has the license for all things SOIAF - current timeline and going back into deep historical events too. With that being said - right now, we are keeping the focus of this tabletop miniatures game on the current timeline as there is just so much amazing content to bring into the game for it (so many factions!). What you are seeing with this Kickstarter project is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. And on that note...
2. The amount of up front work done on this project to date is mind boggling. You are just seeing the tip of the proverbial iceberg (and it is a massive tip of the iceberg at that) on what has already been created (art and sculpts) thus far. It is very hard for me to not blurt out all of the awesome other things you have not seen yet but will see in the 2018 and beyond for this tabletop miniatures game. It has to be even harder for Michael, Thiago and crew to not show you all of the additional amazing sculpts for new factions you have been asking to see. But we have to hold the line and keep the focus on this starter set and all of the awesomeness it entails to kick things off - as it had to be Starks vs. Lannisters for the initial splash as those two are the most well known houses with fans of the book series. Rest assured - tons more stuff is on its way as well.
The "backer value" for the Hand of the Kind pledge is simply off the charts in terms of what you are getting. And that plastic terrain is amazing. George was super excited when we told him about the terrain pieces he can eventually use in his miniature dioramas there at his offices. He loved all of the sculpts we showed him when we were there onsite as well. We had a great time just geeking out over all of the miniature awesomeness you are seeing here in this project (and a bunch of stuff no one has seen yet..of course..).
I am so excited to play this game with my gaming buddies once they have their backer rewards in hand. It got old thumping Michael of House Bolton during some playtest sessions there at CMON HQ.. Smacked him and his Lannister flunkies around pretty good there (took 2 games out of three - only lost the first game barely as I was getting up to speed on some of the specific rules he explained to me). Plus I could not get the Michael Bolton Greatest Hits CD fired up until the second game. Maybe that had something to do with it as well?
So long story long - buckle up, as this Kickstarter project is just the start of an awesome and wild ride in Westeros folks..
And for those of you attending Gen Con Indy, please make Michael of House Bolton sing you some classic Michael Bolton songs while there demoing the game (he is quite the crooner Michael is..and he loves him some Bolton..). I know I will be..
Onward to victory!
Jim
Dark Sword Miniatures
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Post by: Alpharius
JohnHwangDD wrote: griffen127 wrote:Well this is now he highest funded mintiures game in KS history.
I don't understand why people say this is a failure. For what this is it's done very well.
Kingdom Death : Monster 1.5 is the highest funded miniatures game in KS history.
I think he meant miniature 'wargame'?
At least, that's what I was going off of here.
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Post by: griffen127
Ok. Who said they where shooting for 5 million? Is that just some number a group of wishful thinkers came up with? I get board games have a ton more people to draw from as such they make more money. But as a miniatures war game it is a impressive thing to be the highest funded KS.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Pacific wrote:You're on fine form tonight Bob, jumping between this thread (or should I say 'stage') and the Mierce one, dropping little snide comments as you go!
I wasn't even being snide. I am in awe of the accomplishment. I joined this campaign after the fish armor guys and the chaosy knights, and then bam! There he was.
Producer: I want a hero on a horse with a sword.
Artist: Great. I've got the blank right here ready to go. So, what style do you want?
P: Style?
Artist: yeah, what details or proportions would you like me to use to make the hero distinctive? Heroic? Anime proportions? Skulls? Ribbons? Spikes? Wings? Runes?
P: No, no, no. None of that.
Artist: none? What about distinctive armor? Huge pauldrons? Filigree? A flamboyant pose? Non-European ethnicity? Specific period clothing? Ironic expression?
P: no. Too much. Pull back.
Artist: you mean a Campbellian archetype? A neutral faced audience-insert everyman? An abstraction?
P: You're overthinking this. I want a hero. On a horse. With a sword.
Artist: .....Ok.
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Post by: Alpharius
No one?
At least, not that I've seen?
Yes, that's it!
We're just spitballin' here - discussing what might have, could have, should have been!
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Post by: Rayvon
griffen127 wrote:Ok. Who said they where shooting for 5 million? Is that just some number a group of wishful thinkers came up with? I get board games have a ton more people to draw from as such they make more money. But as a miniatures war game it is a impressive thing to be the highest funded KS.
Yep, certainly not a failure, I just got in at the end, seems like good value as long as the sculpts turn out well.
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Post by: griffen127
Well at 200 a person it would take 25000 backers to make 5 million. That just seems silly for a mini war game on KS. Just the mini for the base price is what 96 cents per(ish). That asumes everything else is free. It's a good deal and a good campaign. IMO. I hope it's a good game as well. I feel like a skirmish sub game would be fantastic.
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Post by: Aeneades
Final total is $1,690,466 with Brianne unlocked. I think there may be more funds added to the pledge manager than in other campaigns.
I did go back on forth on whether to pledge a few times as I am not part of a local gaming club so not sure I will ever get it played but happy enough with the miniatures alone.
And finally, the next campaign they aren't running is something I am not interested in.
Let's this see if this image works -
Sneak peak at some of the retail exclusive units with pyromancers for the Lannisters, Bolton heavy infantry for the mercs and a new House Umber unit for the Starks.
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Post by: RiTides
Those retail exclusives look great - and honestly to have raised 1.7M without even putting out some of their cooler units is pretty darn impressive! We'll see if the choice to hold off on these units pays off in the long run - I think it's impossible to know right now, as a lot will depend on things we'll find out next year.
(Like how the sculpts really look, and how the game plays and gets picked up with the boost of Organized Play, etc)
I'd love to see it do well, so here's hoping the fulfillment really blows people away!
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Post by: judgedoug
JohnHwangDD wrote:On KS, miniatures boardgames do significantly better than non-miniatures boardgames. CMoN does among the best miniatures boardgames on KS. CMoN's well-established Zombicide pulled $4M and $5M. CMoN doing a GoT miniatures boardgame would pull $5M+, notwithstanding the existence of FFG's GoT game.
Can you provide any source that did any market research into these numbers you've literally pulled directly out of nowhere?
Are you the source of "5 million dollars"? Are you the source of the market research that indicates that if CMON had made, well, something entirely different, it would have made more?
I would argue that if CMON made a A Song of Ice and Fire reskin of Settlers of Catan with little plastic 8mm (seriously, 8mm?) miniatures then it would have made 50 MILLION dollars because Catan is super popular, moreso than a redux of Diplomacy or a clone of FFG's pre-existing game (except with 8mm miniatures for some reason). This is 100% as accurate as your numbers as well - as in, it is entirely false and based on no market research or data other than a desire to be right on the internet.
But because CMON chose to make a miniatures wargame that is wildly successful, moreso than 99% of all other miniatures wargames on kickstarter, and funded an insane amount of minis, it's a... failure... for some... reason.... that can't quite be expressed with actual data....
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Post by: Aeneades
To state again, CMON only had the licence to make a song of ice and fire miniature war game. FFG have the exclusive rights to make Song of ice and fire board games. I am sure CMON would have made a board game if they could have but that wasn't an option.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
judgedoug wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:On KS, miniatures boardgames do significantly better than non-miniatures boardgames. CMoN does among the best miniatures boardgames on KS. CMoN's well-established Zombicide pulled $4M and $5M. CMoN doing a GoT miniatures boardgame would pull $5M+, notwithstanding the existence of FFG's GoT game.
Can you provide any source that did any market research into these numbers you've literally pulled directly out of nowhere?
CMoN's last KS was $5M. The information is all readily available, so you can check it for yourself.
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Post by: RiTides
That's enough on the "expectations" tangent, please - the point's made on all sides.
Thanks all
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
It looks like all the best minis were left out of the core pledge, excepting characters. What are the odds the prices will remain so high at retail?
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Post by: Aeneades
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:It looks like all the best minis were left out of the core pledge, excepting characters. What are the odds the prices will remain so high at retail?
I think they will drop the RRP to $30 so guess that will relate to them being available for $20 after discount in the US (not so lucky with discounts in the UK).
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Post by: Aeneades
Gencon Update!
Can't make them all out but there is Coldhands on his stag (who will he fight for? Unit to go with Bran perhaps) and two war machines there along side other new units and characters.
It might just be the lighting or reflection but there appears to be a giant to the very far right.
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Post by: Fireball
on the other horse ... that could be a Dothraki with a bow
in the back ... are these the Umbers with doublehanded axes? they look huge ...
lets have more close up pictures!!!
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Post by: judgedoug
JohnHwangDD wrote: judgedoug wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:On KS, miniatures boardgames do significantly better than non-miniatures boardgames. CMoN does among the best miniatures boardgames on KS. CMoN's well-established Zombicide pulled $4M and $5M. CMoN doing a GoT miniatures boardgame would pull $5M+, notwithstanding the existence of FFG's GoT game.
Can you provide any source that did any market research into these numbers you've literally pulled directly out of nowhere?
CMoN's last KS was $5M. The information is all readily available, so you can check it for yourself.
You do understand that you cannot predict a different product line's future success on a completely different product line's past success? If I manufactured razor blades for men and made $5 million, and I now manufacture grooming combs for tiny dogs, should I expect to also make $5 million? Both are grooming products but have completely different core audiences - though there will be some overlap.
But you will ignore anything that directly refutes you, so I will let you continue to explain how my tiny dog grooming combs are an unmitigated failure because I only made $1.5 million on them. Automatically Appended Next Post: RiTides wrote:That's enough on the "expectations" tangent, please - the point's made on all sides.
Thanks all
Woops, sorry dude, didn't see this till after I replied. I'm done
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Post by: infinite_array
Fireball wrote:on the other horse ... that could be a Dothraki with a bow in the back ... are these the Umbers with doublehanded axes? they look huge ...
Aeneades posted a picture on the last page, showing Umbar infantry with two handed axes. They're the second of three Umbar units that are going to be released. And I'm going to guess that the mounted archer is a Reed unit, since it's in Stark grey. Now, is it just me, or are the miniatures at the far end colored black? Are they Greyjoy units?
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Post by: Fireball
The colors do not tell much IMO ... Eddard Stark is orange in that picture
And I still do not understand why people are comparing the success of this tabletop wargame with boardgame kickstarters. Looking at the final stretch goals and the fact they did not offer more optional buy units I think they landed in a range of pledge volume they anticipated ... but what do I know
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Post by: Aeneades
Some better photos of the models have been uploaded to the Facebook group but annoyingly can't post copies from my phone.
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Post by: Grinshanks
I think the guy on horse back might be a Nights Watch ranger.
I only say that because there are close ups/clearer pictures posted in the ASOIAF UK FB group. One mini is Cold Hands and the characters on the far right all have distinctive heavy furs and one is fat (Sam?).
If the pics haven't materialised by the time I'm home I will post them here for you guys.
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Post by: Aeneades
It looks like Gilly with baby next to Sam so nights watch maybe coming sooner then I would have expected.
Looks like Mellisandra between Coldhands and the other mounted figure.
I like the inclusion of the crew on the war machine bases but hard to tell what faction they are for. Perhaps the war machines are Mercenary units so everyone can use them (or have interchangeable crews depending on faction)
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Post by: Grinshanks
Aeneades wrote:It looks like Gilly with baby next to Sam so nights watch maybe coming sooner then I would have expected.
Looks like Mellisandra between Coldhands and the other mounted figure.
I like the inclusion of the crew on the war machine bases but hard to tell what faction they are for. Perhaps the war machines are Mercenary units so everyone can use them (or have interchangeable crews depending on faction)
I think War Machines as mercs makes the most sense for now. Get some basic warmachines out for everyone to use and then faction specific warmachines come later (dracarys?)
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Post by: Aeneades
Looking at the female with skull again she may be Val, the wildling princess rather than Mellisandre which would suggest the second starter is Nightswatch vs Wildlings.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Aeneades wrote:Looking at the female with skull again she may be Val, the wild long princess rather than Mellisandre which would suggest the second starter is Nightswatch vs Wildlings.
Oh man... I would've been all over that on KS versus what we got. Anytime I could rock Tormund Giantsbane on a table-top would be a good thing.
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Post by: Aeneades
You can see Sam in that second photo but Gilly is partly obscured
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Wait, they're doing a Kick-Ass game? Holy crap.
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Post by: Aeneades
I have seen more close ups now and I think the other figure on the horse might be Tormund as he appears to have a metal ring on his arm and is similar to the existing dark sword version. I can't recall whether he rides a horse in the novel.
One of the characters is definitely Thorne.
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Post by: DaveC
3 more
3
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Post by: foenixphate
I am hugely confused, is there a second boxed game of this coming out then with the Baratheons and someone else as the factions? Seems unlikely but stranger things have happened.
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Post by: Manchu
That's what I heard. This starter box with Stark v Lannister and another starter box with two other factions.
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Post by: ImAGeek
Back on page 1 there's a release timeline, that shows 2 starter sets.
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Post by: Aeneades
A second box game is coming directly to retail (to help support stores) around 3 months after the Stark vs Lannister park is released. Early guesses were that it would be Baratheon vs Greyjoy or Tyrell but now appears that it's nightwatch vs Wildling a or Nightwatch & Wildlings vs the White Walkers.
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Post by: foenixphate
 Manchu wrote:That's what I heard. This starter box with Stark v Lannister and another starter box with two other factions.
How bizzare, looks like Baratheon vs the Wildlings with Nightswatch allies going by this.
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Post by: ImAGeek
foenixphate wrote: Manchu wrote:That's what I heard. This starter box with Stark v Lannister and another starter box with two other factions.
How bizzare, looks like Baratheon vs the Wildlings with Nightswatch allies going by this.
I'm not really sure where you're seeing Baratheons?
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Post by: Manchu
Forgive me, I am not a ASOIAF fan, but if this game is about the War of Five Kings, isn't it a bit weird to make figs of wildlings, white walkers, and watch?
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Post by: foenixphate
 ImAGeek wrote:foenixphate wrote: Manchu wrote:That's what I heard. This starter box with Stark v Lannister and another starter box with two other factions.
How bizzare, looks like Baratheon vs the Wildlings with Nightswatch allies going by this.
I'm not really sure where you're seeing Baratheons?
I might have crossed wires thinking the "Coldhands" mini was a Baratheon.
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Post by: ImAGeek
Manchu wrote:Forgive me, I am not a ASOIAF fan, but if this game is about the War of Five Kings, isn't it a bit weird to make figs of wildlings, white walkers, and watch?
I don't think it's that limited in scope, reading the intro blurb bit from post 1
'The A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game lets players take control of their favorite Houses from the novels, represented by trays of high-quality, pre-assembled miniatures, and lead them into battle against their opponents. Players can recreate their favorite moments from the series or create their own stories. What if the Red Wedding never happened, and Robb Stark assaulted King’s Landing? Now fans can find out!
' Automatically Appended Next Post: foenixphate wrote: ImAGeek wrote:foenixphate wrote: Manchu wrote:That's what I heard. This starter box with Stark v Lannister and another starter box with two other factions.
How bizzare, looks like Baratheon vs the Wildlings with Nightswatch allies going by this.
I'm not really sure where you're seeing Baratheons?
I might have crossed wires thinking the "Coldhands" mini was a Baratheon.
Ah, no; he's an undead Ranger who rides an elk.
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Post by: Mr Morden
Cool necromancer style figure there are some nice sculpts here for other games.
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Post by: DaveC
1 more - the catapult "commander" looks very Northern with the furs.
(Did nobody take pictures of the right side of the cabinet?  )
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Post by: Aeneades
The right hand side was where I thought there might be a giant but it could have been for a different game line or just a reflection as the photo quality was poor. I am sure we would have seen close ups by now if it was something new.
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Post by: JimmyWolf87
Aeneades wrote:Looking at the female with skull again she may be Val, the wildling princess rather than Mellisandre which would suggest the second starter is Nightswatch vs Wildlings.
I agree that she's almost certainly a wildling but I can't see her being Val (or Dalla). Can't think why she'd be wearing bones and carrying a skull. I'd have gone more along the lines of her being a generic Wildling Woods Witch attachment or whatever name they give them.
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