H.B.M.C. wrote: Not really. Mk. XXXXXX is a take on the fact that Bugman's Brew is often referred to as Bugman's XXXXXX.
Don't read anything more into it than that.
And what about the fact that SadPanda chipped in a while back with the whole "mk X sounds like a good name" bit when the nee armor was first being discussed?
Bugman's XXXXXX has always been a thing, but the Warhammer community team has been known to be cheeky in the past. This could be an off hand reference.
Warhams-77 wrote: An overview of rumors regarding the new Marines with the important bits from the last months - in order of appearance
Spoiler:
4chan
Hastings - Disqus
Chikout wrote:
Hastings has popped up on the war of sigmar blog saying there will be completely new imperial units made by guillemot and Cawl that will include new types of marines and will feature in a new starter set later this year.
…I’m not suggesting anything gets squatted. I said clearly focus will be on new marines rather than existing chapters, but existing chapters will still get releases.
I don’t get it, people are happy they’re moving the story/timeline on but don’t want anything to change, they want just their chapter to get new toys yet complain SM have too much, 40k players should think themselves lucky that they didn’t get the same treatment that WFB fans did with the destruction of the setting and large parts of models/armies. What’s the point of the hobby for Bret or tomb kings players?
I see new marines as a chance to have the best of both worlds, SM originals don’t get endless variants and units but are still in the fight, new marines are like a new army to build up from scratch pretty much, I’m sure they’d happily ally so don’t really see what the problem is.
…The answer to that is simply I don’t know. I was told they new marines are different to current marines, [...]
I really doubt the iconic space marine kit will be retired so I wouldn’t worry too much about them becoming outdated. I guess fluffwise it would be no different than older armour classes still being around in 40k, sure the new marines would be out there, but a lot of existing marines are still out there too.”
Sad Panda - DakkaDakka
H.B.M.C. wrote:
What will they be called though?
Mk. X sounds nice.
Warhammer 40,000 website
Could one of the mods add this to the first post?
Thanks dude. And to everyone else who found the jump pack pictures.
Mods, admins or whoever. Can we make Warhams a mod or something, he's always so good at keeping rumour threads up to date and editing the first post for those not able to keep up to date themselves.
Thanks for the kind words, General Kroll, but I'm already mod at a german forum and Dakka has a good and large mod team while the other is limited to a few active folks. Not sure if I could actually help in both due to time constraints.
I hope a mod will add the quotes to the op later ( please). It is still morning hours in the US if I'm not mistaken
Warhams-77 wrote: Thanks for the kind words, General Kroll, but I'm already mod at a german forum and Dakka has a good and large mod team while the other is limited to a few active folks. Not sure if I could actually help in both due to time constraints.
It does get busy here at times.
You wouldn't believe the requests we get to add stuff into a first post, for example...
Neronoxx wrote: And what about the fact that SadPanda chipped in a while back with the whole "mk X sounds like a good name" bit when the nee armor was first being discussed?
Which has all of nothing to do with this miniature. The NuMarines might be Mk.X. Who cares? This is Mk.XXXXXX because it's a Bugman's joke. Nothing more.
Dunno if someone has said it already, but my guess is that this is from the Space Marine half of the new starter set. Since those two marines have the exact same pose, I'm thinking they are push fit and duplicate sprues.
So I'm guessing we have these "Nu-Marines" on one side, against Death Guard on the other.
Neronoxx wrote: And what about the fact that SadPanda chipped in a while back with the whole "mk X sounds like a good name" bit when the nee armor was first being discussed?
Which has all of nothing to do with this miniature. The NuMarines might be Mk.X. Who cares? This is Mk.XXXXXX because it's a Bugman's joke. Nothing more.
Or it might do. And they might be. And people do care, clearly, in the thread for talking about the NuMArines. I get it's a Bugman's joke but it could be a double whammy. Unless you know otherwise, categorically, and aren't just speculating like everyone else? Who knows. There's no harm in making the connection, if intended or not.
Warhams-77 wrote:Thanks for the kind words, General Kroll, but I'm already mod at a german forum and Dakka has a good and large mod team while the other is limited to a few active folks. Not sure if I could actually help in both due to time constraints.
I hope a mod will add the quotes to the op later ( please). It is still morning hours in the US if I'm not mistaken
No worries, I'm a mod on another site too, it can get a bit consuming doesn't it. Thanks for all your efforts here though.
Alpharius wrote:
Warhams-77 wrote: Thanks for the kind words, General Kroll, but I'm already mod at a german forum and Dakka has a good and large mod team while the other is limited to a few active folks. Not sure if I could actually help in both due to time constraints.
It does get busy here at times.
You wouldn't believe the requests we get to add stuff into a first post, for example...
I hope a mod will add the quotes to the op later ( please). It is still morning hours in the US if I'm not mistaken
Done!
Thanks
Nurglitch wrote:They don't look bigger...
They look about the same size as regular Deathwatch dudes. I agree with the poster above, I think they are from the new starter, the assault marine variant too. If they are I'd be happy to start a small ultramarine force with them.
Some people say the 8th ed box will be "Nu-marines" vs death guard.
If this is so, how to explain the official Death Guard does not seem to have "Nu" proportions ? To me Death Guard seems the standard heroic scale, don t they ?
reluxor wrote: Some people say the 8th ed box will be "Nu-marines" vs death guard.
If this is so, how to explain the official Death Guard does not seem to have "Nu" proportions ? To me Death Guard seems the standard heroic scale, don t they ?
Makes me think even more that the new marines are not just upscaled, but are a whole new breed of marines entirely.
reluxor wrote: Some people say the 8th ed box will be "Nu-marines" vs death guard.
If this is so, how to explain the official Death Guard does not seem to have "Nu" proportions ? To me Death Guard seems the standard heroic scale, don t they ?
Makes me think even more that the new marines are not just upscaled, but are a whole new breed of marines entirely.
They are the second new faction available at release, I bet.
I really don't see how upscaling them makes much sense, if that's what is actually going to happen. They would haveto change the entire Space Marine product line, including all the related armies like Chaos and Grey knights. Even the very recent kits would need to be re-done as they'd no longer be the right scale.
Not only that, but it throws all the other models off scale even further. Once you start having one kit that's the correct sort of size, you'd have to do the rest otherwise it all just looks odd. Eldar are supposed to be taller than humans and about the same height as Space Marines for example, so they'd have to do the same for those otherwise they're just shifting the problem from Space Marines only to every other faction in the game. Things aren't too bad as they are at the moment because despite things not being quite to the right scale, that's a problem pretty much all the miniatures have.
They are not a replacement for marines they are an elite choice or such since Pappa smurf is back think vanguard vets or stern gaurd. It will prob be something to do with access to the Smurfs gene seed so able to produce new upgraded marines or maybe the tech guy also designed new armour for the marines as well.
That's if what we are seeing is true of course.
So basically it's probably a case of ooh look space marines get a brand new unit straight out the gate while us xeno players other than tau get forgotten again :( lol.
10penceman wrote: They are not a replacement for marines they are an elite choice or such since Pappa smurf is back think vanguard vets or stern gaurd. It will prob be something to do with access to the Smurfs gene seed so able to produce new upgraded marines or maybe the tech guy also designed new armour for the marines as well.
That's if what we are seeing is true of course.
So basically it's probably a case of ooh look space marines get a brand new unit straight out the gate while us xeno players other than tau get forgotten again :( lol.
I will be sad if this is true. I don't want upgraded space marines that make anyone who isn't a smirf a second rate space marine. I swear if they make them an ultramarines only unit I'll... whine a bunch and them buy them anyways... I'll use them to replace regular marines anyways so whatever...
10penceman wrote: They are not a replacement for marines they are an elite choice or such since Pappa smurf is back think vanguard vets or stern gaurd.
Their being painted in 3rd Company colours, which is a battle company.
krazynadechukr wrote: It was just confirmed. Marines being re-scaled (true scale/nu-marine/heroic scale/whatever-ya-wanna-label-it)!
New starter preorder June 3rd, release June 17th!
Such a misleading comment.
This comes from a user in the comments section of miniwars.eu. who said a new starter set including death guard vs nu marines is up for preorder on June 3Rd.
No info one way or the other about the status of these marines.
My money is still on them being a subfaction and not a replacement for tactical marines.
This may have changed over the years but I believe it certainly used to be the case that the older kits were more profitable, so even if it's all about money there is a strong case for keeping the old marines alongside the new.
And let me stop you right there. It's not about "sense" it's about $$$$$$$$$$. 'Nuff said.
But is it really going to provide them loads of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$? Are the players, who have been awash of new Marine kits over last 2 years, really excitedly waiting for different scale Marines which do not visually mix well with their existing armies? I really doubt it. It might be different if it was situation like with Chaos Space Marines, where much of the range is obsolete and in dire need of replacement.
And let me stop you right there. It's not about "sense" it's about $$$$$$$$$$. 'Nuff said.
But is it really going to provide them loads of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$? Are the players, who have been awash of new Marine kits over last 2 years, really excitedly waiting for different scale Marines which do not visually mix well with their existing armies? I really doubt it. It might be different if it was situation like with Chaos Space Marines, where much of the range is obsolete and in dire need of replacement.
The suppose I'm a masochist but I am. I have a ton of space wolves still on the sprue and at least 100 regular marines collected over the years still unpainted not to mention dozens of painted marines. I am also super low on money. I am still stoked about the idea of scrapping them for marines that are more properly scaled to the fluff. I would be sad however, as I said earlier, if it was some new kind of unit (especially if it is ultra specific) maybe I'm a minority but I have wanted "true scale" marines for years. I'm ready to deal with the financial consequences to fulfill a long time gaming desire
An upscale of Marines I long past due, likely held off because if $$$ reasons. I say now is as good a time as any
My money is still on them being a subfaction and not a replacement for tactical marines.
Again, their being painted in 3rd Company Colours, which is a battle co.
They are replacements.
Not necessarily. If roboute was introducing a new kind of marine to his armies, would it not make sense to split these new guys into small teams to support each battle company?
Also with the ultramarines having a pretty rough time in the gathering storm you could have new guys being subbed in to make up for lost numbers.
There are plenty of fluffy reasons why you could have new and old marines fighting together.
It's a bit odd to show them alongside the devastator kit if they're going to replace all of them, though.
It's to show both lines will be supported, I imagine it will take awhile until the Post-heresy Marines fade from existance, and from a lore perspective I figure Chapters will eventually stop recruiting them that way and the Marines will continue to serve until their eventually all KIA.
GW doesnt give a feth when lore comes to studio paint schemes. Painting Ultramarines has always been was traditionally Blue with Goldyellow trim.... with red and yellow weapons.
Fixed that for you. They haven't done the red trim in ages.
GW doesnt give a feth when lore comes to studio paint schemes. Painting Ultramarines has always been was traditionally Blue with Goldyellow trim.... with red and yellow weapons.
Fixed that for you. They haven't done the red trim in ages.
Fixed better
Youngsters nowadays. I was accused of painting my 'built over 20 years' Ultramarines 2nd Company incorrectly because of yellow trims and red bolter casings. Gold and black is the 'correct' way.
I pointed out to said accuser that some of the Marines had been painted before he was born!
As for the red trim, I'm not sure how 'ages' is strictly defined but wasn't the Sons of Ultramar source book/ paint guide released within the last 18 months or so? That was 3rd Company based.
GW doesnt give a feth when lore comes to studio paint schemes. Painting Ultramarines has always been was traditionally Blue with Goldyellow trim.... with red and yellow weapons.
Fixed that for you. They haven't done the red trim in ages.
Fixed better
Don't forget the goblin green base trim!
Funny how "always" so often turns out to be "both years I've been in the hobby" isn't it?
GW doesnt give a feth when lore comes to studio paint schemes. Painting Ultramarines has always been was traditionally Blue with Goldyellow trim.... with red and yellow weapons.
Fixed that for you. They haven't done the red trim in ages.
Fixed better
Don't forget the goblin green base trim!
Funny how "always" so often turns out to be "both years I've been in the hobby" isn't it?
True enough. If you didn't buy your first RTB01s at Dalling Road you're not even trying to look like a crusty!
10penceman wrote: They are not a replacement for marines they are an elite choice or such since Pappa smurf is back think vanguard vets or stern gaurd. It will prob be something to do with access to the Smurfs gene seed so able to produce new upgraded marines or maybe the tech guy also designed new armour for the marines as well.
That's if what we are seeing is true of course.
So basically it's probably a case of ooh look space marines get a brand new unit straight out the gate while us xeno players other than tau get forgotten again :( lol.
I will be sad if this is true. I don't want upgraded space marines that make anyone who isn't a smirf a second rate space marine. I swear if they make them an ultramarines only unit I'll... whine a bunch and them buy them anyways... I'll use them to replace regular marines anyways so whatever...
It's something that I am struggling to get behind from a fluff perspective. I mean, if they can make super space marines with a Primarch material why didn't they do it when the other Primarchs were around. Space Marines are already created directly from their Primarchs genetic material. I guess they add some extra special sauce to the mix to get them super. Will just have to wait and see.
10penceman wrote: They are not a replacement for marines they are an elite choice or such since Pappa smurf is back think vanguard vets or stern gaurd. It will prob be something to do with access to the Smurfs gene seed so able to produce new upgraded marines or maybe the tech guy also designed new armour for the marines as well.
That's if what we are seeing is true of course.
So basically it's probably a case of ooh look space marines get a brand new unit straight out the gate while us xeno players other than tau get forgotten again :( lol.
I will be sad if this is true. I don't want upgraded space marines that make anyone who isn't a smirf a second rate space marine. I swear if they make them an ultramarines only unit I'll... whine a bunch and them buy them anyways... I'll use them to replace regular marines anyways so whatever...
It's something that I am struggling to get behind from a fluff perspective. I mean, if they can make super space marines with a Primarch material why didn't they do it when the other Primarchs were around. Space Marines are already created directly from their Primarchs genetic material. I guess they add some extra special sauce to the mix to get them super. Will just have to wait and see.
Perhaps it's something to do with the Geneseed itself. With Roberts return, it's the first time anyone has had direct access to fresh Geneseed for x millennia. Perhaps this fresh stock has qualities that have been lost through degradation of time and corruption of the seed over the years.
It's something that I am struggling to get behind from a fluff perspective. I mean, if they can make super space marines with a Primarch material why didn't they do it when the other Primarchs were around. Space Marines are already created directly from their Primarchs genetic material. I guess they add some extra special sauce to the mix to get them super. Will just have to wait and see.
Maybe Cawl is wiling to go where others wouldn't dare?
I guess we'll find out from WD or when they're released.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Perhaps it's something to do with the Geneseed itself. With Roberts return, it's the first time anyone has had direct access to fresh Geneseed for x millennia. Perhaps this fresh stock has qualities that have been lost through degradation of time and corruption of the seed over the years.
That would be huge ret-con as that would mean HH marines were basically the new super marines that have then degenerated into current marines.
I think this numarine stuff is going to be a lot more low key in terms of background and they'll essentially be just marines. There's not really any point to making a whole new faction of marines who's defining feature is what, a 2mm height difference? Remember that as it stands a basic tactical marine is bigger than most of the imperiums greatest heroes.
Given that they look normal and we know they have what looks to be standard tactical and assault units I think this is just a refresh of the marine line. There may be some fluff justfication for it like all marines are now made centrally on terra and then shipped out but I doubt we'll get the missing link between astartes and custodes. There's a new edition coming out so marines need to be re-released, stormcast are huge so their 40k counterparts need a boost without turning terminators into dreadnoughts and marines need better proportions anyway. wasn't the reason for 32mm bases that they just look better?
JSG wrote: I think this numarine stuff is going to be a lot more low key in terms of background and they'll essentially be just marines. There's not really any point to making a whole new faction of marines who's defining feature is what, a 2mm height difference? Remember that as it stands a basic tactical marine is bigger than most of the imperiums greatest heroes.
Given that they look normal and we know they have what looks to be standard tactical and assault units I think this is just a refresh of the marine line. There may be some fluff justfication for it like all marines are now made centrally on terra and then shipped out but I doubt we'll get the missing link between astartes and custodes. There's a new edition coming out so marines need to be re-released, stormcast are huge so their 40k counterparts need a boost without turning terminators into dreadnoughts and marines need better proportions anyway. wasn't the reason for 32mm bases that they just look better?
I agree. My bet is simply new models rather than new type of Marines.
I think people are overreacting to these models that's we are probably only going to find in this 8th edition starter.
Why on earth would you assume that these models would be only in the starter?
Because of Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, and Dark Vengeance v2.
So you mean sets that are fairly old?
Look at the Age of Sigmar starter set. There's 4 models from that whole set that are unavailable otherwise.
The Bloodsecrator(Chaos guy carrying a standard)
Bloodstoker(Chaos guy with a whip and dagger)
Khorgorath(Chaos monster)
Lord Relictor(Stormcast character with a banner)
I think that whatever's in the starter set, it is likely just to be characters that would remain "exclusive".
Nightlord1987 wrote: I cant think of anything that dark vengeance that was available outsidethe box other than the repackaged but same exact cultist snap fit 5 pack.
We're not talking about the exact same models, but the design. Marines and terminators similar to DV ones can be built from available multipart kits. Similarly, even if the starter set Mark X would be snap fit (I hope they aren't but they probably are) there will be multipart kits using the same armour design too.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I cant think of anything that dark vengeance that was available outsidethe box other than the repackaged but same exact cultist snap fit 5 pack.
Chaos got a hellbrute model, a different one than DV with a variety of weapon options.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Perhaps it's something to do with the Geneseed itself. With Roberts return, it's the first time anyone has had direct access to fresh Geneseed for x millennia. Perhaps this fresh stock has qualities that have been lost through degradation of time and corruption of the seed over the years.
That would be huge ret-con as that would mean HH marines were basically the new super marines that have then degenerated into current marines.
I kinda like that angle honestly... The modern Imperium was built on the backs of mythic heros that were truly lost to time (Until Rowboat returned!)
I think people are overreacting to these models that's we are probably only going to find in this 8th edition starter.
Why on earth would you assume that these models would be only in the starter?
Because of Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, and Dark Vengeance v2.
So you mean sets that are fairly old?
Look at the Age of Sigmar starter set. There's 4 models from that whole set that are unavailable otherwise. The Bloodsecrator(Chaos guy carrying a standard) Bloodstoker(Chaos guy with a whip and dagger) Khorgorath(Chaos monster) Lord Relictor(Stormcast character with a banner)
Are they the exact same models or just different versions of the same unit though?
Looking at the sprues from the AoS starter set they seem to be mixed within individual sprues, so I'm guessing the versions that you can buy separately aren't the exact same versions you get in the starter set?
The same way you can buy Night Goblins separately, but you can't buy the exact same Night Goblins that came in the Battle for Skull Pass set.
I think that whatever's in the starter set, it is likely just to be characters that would remain "exclusive".
I mentioned somewhere earlier that I wouldn't be surprised if the models are trickled out in a starter set and then will gradually replace the basic Space Marine models over time (assuming they're replacements rather than a new unit type).
I don't expect them to remain "exclusive" in the sense I'd expect them to be recut on different sprues for individual sale outside the starter set, but you probably won't get the exact same models separately as you get in the starter set, it seems to be GW's style to cast the starter set models differently to how they cast the ones that get boxed up individually.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Are they the exact same models or just different versions of the same unit though?
Looking at the sprues from the AoS starter set they seem to be mixed within individual sprues, so I'm guessing the versions that you can buy separately aren't the exact same versions you get in the starter set?
The same way you can buy Night Goblins separately, but you can't buy the exact same Night Goblins that came in the Battle for Skull Pass set.
Yes and no?
The starter set versions are specific builds of the stuff; a few with some bits that the "real" kits don't have(The Stormcast Retributors and Liberators, for example, have a Prime with one foot up on a rock that the plastic equivalent kits do not have). Mostly it's like the difference between the Dark Vengeance Marines and the plastic Tactical kit; they build a specific way and aren't supplied with other options.
For the most part, barring the unit champions, you can replicate the AoS starter contents fairly easy using the individual boxes. Apparently the CAD was the same for both and they just brought specific posing over for the rank and file.
I think that whatever's in the starter set, it is likely just to be characters that would remain "exclusive".
I mentioned somewhere earlier that I wouldn't be surprised if the models are trickled out in a starter set and then will gradually replace the basic Space Marine models over time (assuming they're replacements rather than a new unit type).
I don't expect them to remain "exclusive" in the sense I'd expect them to be recut on different sprues for individual sale outside the starter set, but you probably won't get the exact same models separately as you get in the starter set, it seems to be GW's style to cast the starter set models differently to how they cast the ones that get boxed up individually.
I think we're more or less saying the same thing.
Although I am still sticking with the "new" Loyalists as being a new breed of Marine rather than replacements. With Age of Sigmar, they actually showed us new Stormcast kits a few weeks before they were available in the form of the Judicators(bowmen) in the promo material. If the Marines were replacements, I would expect to see their Devastator equivalent from the get-go.
Yeah probably just a bit of confusion, I consider models "exclusive" when you can't get that specific cast of the models elsewhere even though you might be able to get a different cast of the same type of models. So in that sense I consider the Dark Vengeance models "exclusive" even though you can buy Tactical Marines, Terminators, etc separately, you can't buy the specific ones you get in the Dark Vengeance set.
There was a time when GW just included the exact same models you can buy elsewhere in their starter sets, but they haven't done that for a while.
I will say that they did what you described with Stormclaw and Death Masque. Only exception being Eldrad and Artemis; Eldrad isn't available at all right now but Artemis is in the Start Collecting Deathwatch set.
Maybe Cawl is wiling to go where others wouldn't dare?
Quite possibly. In the Rise of the Primarch trailer Cawl says he was given a task ten millennia ago before the Heresy. Given the time frame it couldn't have been Robute's life support armour. Prehaps he was part of a Marines V2 project way back then? But whatever Cawl has cooked up he's had to sit on it until Robute came back into the picture to give him the authorisation. Messing with geenseed and or Primarch genetic material could have got him executed for heresy under earlier Imperial regimes.
IF these numarines are designed to become the new normal, I still can't fathom why GW invested all of the money into paying designers, buying the moulds, etc. for all of the marine units they have released in the last year (new tacticals, assaults, devastators, sternguard, vanguard, Blood Angel tacticals, Death Watch, Thousand Sons, etc., not to mention all the characters) if they planned all along to scrap that entire style of design in a years time when the new edition came out. They've done some crazy gak but that seems completely mental from a cost point of view, not to mention a feth you to their customers who just bought all those to replace older models, at a time when GW has been very good about becoming a better, more communicative company. I hope they'll just be an elite choice, a retinue for Rowboat or something.
Pox Apostle wrote: IF these numarines are designed to become the new normal, I still can't fathom why GW invested all of the money into paying designers, buying the moulds, etc. for all of the marine units they have released in the last year (new tacticals, assaults, devastators, sternguard, vanguard, Blood Angel tacticals, Death Watch, Thousand Sons, etc., not to mention all the characters) if they planned all along to scrap that entire style of design in a years time when the new edition came out. They've done some crazy gak but that seems completely mental from a cost point of view, not to mention a feth you to their customers who just bought all those to replace older models, at a time when GW has been very good about becoming a better, more communicative company. I hope they'll just be an elite choice, a retinue for Rowboat or something.
Apparently most of the sales of the kits happen when they're new, shiny and just released. They've gotten their money back already.
I think they will just exist alongside the current range of space marine models as it is a new armour mark. Like the way the mark 3 and mark 4 heresy stuff does.
So you will have a mark 9 (or 10 or whatever it is) tactical squad, mark 9 assault squad, etc as well as the current stuff.
No way are they going to consign mark 6 and 7 armour models to the dustbin of history. People will obviously still want the iconic 40k armour marks, would be a crazy decision just to throw away several still new kits for a product that looks a bit distinct.
Actually, Deathwatch and the new Rubric Marines and Thousand Sons marines are taller that normal tactic squad marines. So I'm pretty sure that those kids where made with the new scale of marines in mind.
Galas wrote: Actually, Deathwatch and the new Rubric Marines and Thousand Sons marines are taller that normal tactic squad marines. So I'm pretty sure that those kids where made with the new scale of marines in mind.
As has been mentioned, repeatedly within this very thread, there is not as big of a height difference as you're making there out to be--nor is that the only difference from the sighted pictures compared to the new stuff.
Height and bulk-wise, the Deathwatch and Thousand Sons stuff is actually much closer to the most recent Tactical, Assault, Veteran, and Devastator kits.
The bulk and height of the sighted models is closer to the Custodes than the Deathwatch stuff. But part of that might simply be perspective tricks.
Galas wrote: Actually, Deathwatch and the new Rubric Marines and Thousand Sons marines are taller that normal tactic squad marines. So I'm pretty sure that those kids where made with the new scale of marines in mind.
The scale of Marine releases seems to be all over the place recently. The 1K sons and Death watch(with the exception of the Overkill guys) look like they will match up well with these new Marines. But the HH plastics match the height of the existing mk7 models.
Galas wrote: Actually, Deathwatch and the new Rubric Marines and Thousand Sons marines are taller that normal tactic squad marines. So I'm pretty sure that those kids where made with the new scale of marines in mind.
As has been mentioned, repeatedly within this very thread, there is not as big of a height difference as you're making there out to be--nor is that the only difference from the sighted pictures compared to the new stuff.
Height and bulk-wise, the Deathwatch and Thousand Sons stuff is actually much closer to the most recent Tactical, Assault, Veteran, and Devastator kits.
The bulk and height of the sighted models is closer to the Custodes than the Deathwatch stuff. But part of that might simply be perspective tricks.
I was answering to Pox Apostle about how all the marine boxes of the last year will be invalidated by the new marines! I wasn't talking about that Deathwathc or Rubric where so much bigger that normal marines, just how they aren't squatting and so they will blend better with the new and bigger marines. To me the new marines don't seem so big as the Custodes, but well. We just need to wait a month or two to compare them!
Maybe Cawl is wiling to go where others wouldn't dare?
Quite possibly. In the Rise of the Primarch trailer Cawl says he was given a task ten millennia ago before the Heresy. Given the time frame it couldn't have been Robute's life support armour. Prehaps he was part of a Marines V2 project way back then? But whatever Cawl has cooked up he's had to sit on it until Robute came back into the picture to give him the authorisation. Messing with geenseed and or Primarch genetic material could have got him executed for heresy under earlier Imperial regimes.
Yea the only thing that I can think of to really justify these Numarines is that maybe during the great scouring Roboute authorised Cawl to try to incorporate elements of the Emperor's genetic code into the Ultramarine geneseed. He could have done this to ensure that his legion were proof against Chaotic corruption or perhaps to ensure that some of the Emperors physical prowess was not lost to mankind.
Roboute is a very practical man. Although the Emperor didn't see the need to improve the Space Marines any further, I can see the events of the heresy motivating Roboute to try something like this.
Like you said, when Roboute was killed by Fulgrim, Cawl would have surpressed any information about him conducting gene experiments. It would not have been well recieved by the High Lords! Now that Roboute is back, Cawl can use the fruits of 10,000 years of research to improve the geneseed and create the Numarines.
I just want to know what's the deal with these guys is. I will get the models regardless, they look great, I just hope the fluff is not painfully stupid. All my marine modelling projects are on hold until I know whether these new fellows can be integrated into old chapters or are they their own separate thing. One thing is sure though: I will not paint them blue.
My wild speculation based on the Mark IV helmet in the trailer is that the new marines would've been commissioned as a chapter/legion while Roboute was alive. They've been in statis since, but Guilliman's ressurection provided the means to unleash them - gene material, authority etc
It might not be the same pattern ofcourse, but I needed something to base my speculations on
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Perhaps it's something to do with the Geneseed itself. With Roberts return, it's the first time anyone has had direct access to fresh Geneseed for x millennia. Perhaps this fresh stock has qualities that have been lost through degradation of time and corruption of the seed over the years.
That would be huge ret-con as that would mean HH marines were basically the new super marines that have then degenerated into current marines.
But thats not a ret-con. Thats the lore of the Imperium! The technological regresion was one of the mains themes of the Imperium. The Space Marines of Today are worse that the ones of the Horus Heresy era. They have more inestable geneseed, they are made by a worse process, and they have worse equipement. Just as Dreadnoughts of today are worse that the Contemptor variant of the Horus Heresy, etc...
Marines send missions to retrieve a single Terminator Armour for a reason. What is lost is lost forever. (At least before, I suppose that Cawl and Guilliman will change that)
Maybe Cawl is wiling to go where others wouldn't dare?
Quite possibly. In the Rise of the Primarch trailer Cawl says he was given a task ten millennia ago before the Heresy. Given the time frame it couldn't have been Robute's life support armour. Prehaps he was part of a Marines V2 project way back then? But whatever Cawl has cooked up he's had to sit on it until Robute came back into the picture to give him the authorisation. Messing with geenseed and or Primarch genetic material could have got him executed for heresy under earlier Imperial regimes.
Yea the only thing that I can think of to really justify these Numarines is that maybe during the great scouring Roboute authorised Cawl to try to incorporate elements of the Emperor's genetic code into the Ultramarine geneseed. He could have done this to ensure that his legion were proof against Chaotic corruption or perhaps to ensure that some of the Emperors physical prowess was not lost to mankind.
Roboute is a very practical man. Although the Emperor didn't see the need to improve the Space Marines any further, I can see the events of the heresy motivating Roboute to try something like this.
Like you said, when Roboute was killed by Fulgrim, Cawl would have surpressed any information about him conducting gene experiments. It would not have been well recieved by the High Lords! Now that Roboute is back, Cawl can use the fruits of 10,000 years of research to improve the geneseed and create the Numarines.
I don't think this idea takes fully into account what we do know from these pics, though. Based off these two pictures, this new marine kit (if that's what i actually is) is clearly a new pattern of armour based off the current two main variants of power armour; Mark 7 and 8, in terms of appearance. The bolter is also similar to the current pattern. If this oath was along the lines of "make me better Marines" and that was to do with the geneseed itself, it doesn't explain the new equipment. If it was to do with just better Space Marines in general including the armour/weapon, then his work would have been outdated by now, considering he hasn't worked on it for 10,000 years according to the trailer for Rise of the Primarch. Whatever the project is it's something he's been able to stop for all that time and have it nearly done shortly after resuming his work 10,000 years later, in the space of what i assume is less than a year, although i'm not sure on the actual timeframe for the recent campaigns. That implies it can't really be to do with updating the armour or weapons, which is the main thing we know from these pictures. I can't really think of a way that it could work with the huge time gap between the Horus Heresy and reviving Roboute. It could be to do with the geneseed but that wouldn't explain the sudden appereance of a different-but-not-much pattern of armour and weapons suddenly appearing when the previous version, Mark 8, has only received limited production.
We were told these were supposedly a "totally new type of marine", which doesn't seem to be the case based on this Picture. They're slightly different and larger, but still appear to be Standard Space Marines at their core. If these are an entirely new type of Space Marine then for some reason they've been put into one of the current Ultramarines Companies as tactical Marines.
So are we thinking this is to fit on 32mm base where the older where 25mm? I see talk of the Stormcast Eternals (Sigmarines!?) bandied about but those 40mm iirc.
Ahtman wrote: So are we thinking this is to fit on 32mm base where the older where 25mm? I see talk of the Stormcast Eternals (Sigmarines!?) bandied about but those 40mm iirc.
Old Regular Marines were switched to 32mm from 25mm a while back.
I don't think GW will now make them go back to 25mm!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Normal marines are made with a lot of effort from ordinary humans who have to age and grow for years before they begin the marinification program
I strongly suspect the Nu-marines shortcut this somehow meaning more marines fast (maybe without needing a human to convert)
I really hope that this is not it. It would make them lose any meaningful connection to the humanity, rendering them blander than Storcasts. The culture of their home/recruiting world has always been an important factor in determining the character of a Space Marine chapter.
I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.
A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.
Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.
robbienw wrote: He did, but no one else has corroborated that
And he was wrong about the leaked pic not being a numarine.
Actually, to be fair, I think the precise content of what he said was that it wasn't what he'd had described to him. If I'm remembering that right, then it could simply be a case of miscommunication/understanding.
Ahtman wrote: So are we thinking this is to fit on 32mm base where the older where 25mm? I see talk of the Stormcast Eternals (Sigmarines!?) bandied about but those 40mm iirc.
Old Regular Marines were switched to 32mm from 25mm a while back.
I don't think GW will now make them go back to 25mm!
(I hope?)
My Marines aren't on 25mm but 32mm I'm just trying make sure I understand the basing. It seems like these newer style marine are going to be to the 32mm base what the older ones were to 25mm, size wise. I know my guys on the 32 don't reach the edges of the base. OTOH the SCE are even bigger and on Terminator sized 40mm bases. If it is just feet I can probably hold off and get taller feet as I have a bunch of marines that aren't assembled and weighted 32mm bases for them.
Actually, to be fair, I think the precise content of what he said was that it wasn't what he'd had described to him. If I'm remembering that right, then it could simply be a case of miscommunication/understanding.
This is indeed likely, but then other info he has may have been affected by similar miscommunication as well, rendering it less reliable.
I still think that the likeliest explanation for this new look is that it is just some new gear for normal marines and the size increase is just normal scale creep and there's no fluff reason for it.
krazynadechukr wrote: I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.
A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.
Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.
How does that make any difference? No one is disputing that they're being made to make money, that has no actual relevance to the lore reason or what they're actually going to use the new kit for. They're going to be a new product for sale, of course they're intended to make money.
Why does the fact they will make money seem to be such a big deal as if they can't do something people want AND make money at the same time. I have wanted "true scale" marines for many years. Yup, it's painful and should have come long ago but it's finally here.
I guess I think (and I could be wrong) that I'm not the only person that wants bigger marine models. Can't make everyone happy all the time I guess. I'm currently in the "happy" group it would seem.
krazynadechukr wrote: I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.
A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.
Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.
that has no actual relevance to the lore reason
Exactly my point.
There's not going to be any "lore reason" to justify the new size marines. It is what it is. GW is making a new game with proper sized miniatures, and that is it. So many people trying to add some meaning or background to "why" GW are making "true scale." No. Nada, New minis, that's all. They'll sell more. Their "lore" is money. Stop trying to create some justification about the new sized minis.
Not necessarily. If roboute was introducing a new kind of marine to his armies, would it not make sense to split these new guys into small teams to support each battle company?
Also with the ultramarines having a pretty rough time in the gathering storm you could have new guys being subbed in to make up for lost numbers.
There are plenty of fluffy reasons why you could have new and old marines fighting together.
Reserve Companies support the Battle Companies though, and these are Marines which despite being 'better' will still perform the same roles, so it makes more sense for them to be inserted into the battle companies.
Fluff wise, yeah you could have them operating in units with older Marines. My point though is that moving forward, these Marines will replace the older ones at least for the Ultramarines. IDK if other chapters will follow suit and I am sure the fluff will support/leave room for DIY chapters still running older marines.
krazynadechukr wrote: I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.
A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.
Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.
that has no actual relevance to the lore reason
Exactly my point.
There's not going to be any "lore reason" to justify the new size marines. It is what it is. GW is making a new game with proper sized miniatures, and that is it. So many people trying to add some meaning or background to "why" GW are making "true scale." No. Nada, New minis, that's all. They'll sell more. Their "lore" is money. Stop trying to create some justification about the new sized minis.
Oh, have a word will you?!
This is no different than every single model GW make. Literally every single one has some lore "justification" to allow them to make it so you buy it. Stop making out that it's some deep insight into the commercial machinations of big business that you've suddenly figured out like some sort of guru.
krazynadechukr wrote: I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.
A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.
Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.
that has no actual relevance to the lore reason
Exactly my point.
There's not going to be any "lore reason" to justify the new size marines. It is what it is. GW is making a new game with proper sized miniatures, and that is it. So many people trying to add some meaning or background to "why" GW are making "true scale." No. Nada, New minis, that's all. They'll sell more. Their "lore" is money. Stop trying to create some justification about the new sized minis.
Oh, have a word will you?!
This is no different than every single model GW make. Literally every single one has some lore "justification" to allow them to make it so you buy it. Stop making out that it's some deep insight into the commercial machinations of big business that you've suddenly figured out like some sort of guru.
PS still waiting for that source.
Word.
GW is a company, if it doesn't make money by selling models and games, they may as well pack everything up and go home. So they try and maximise profits? Big whoop. People need to get over it.
From what I've heard there is definitely a lore reason, they are not just a new mark of armour. I also know that people have lost (entry level) jobs at HQ recently for loose lips on the topic, so I'm not surprised that no one "reliable" is confirming what that lore is.
JamesY wrote: From what I've heard there is definitely a lore reason, they are not just a new mark of armour. I also know that people have lost (entry level) jobs at HQ recently for loose lips on the topic, so I'm not surprised that no one "reliable" is confirming what that lore is.
Ah finaly the "Project Homo sapiens novus" is here!
And the big marines get their models! Ja!
And GW doesn't even have to retcon anything of their lore!
Ok, here for the younger ones a part of that rather okd article ( could be White Dwarf 261):
n 998.M41, Explorator Magos Marco Pteronus led an archeological expedition to the Dead World of Inculaba, discovering a long-lost Adeptus Mechanicus geno-lab. During excavation of the site it was discovered that buried deep within the rock of this barren world were secrets that had lain undiscovered for 5,000 standard years. Secrets regarding a Founding of the Space Marines sometimes referred to as the Cursed Founding. The 21st Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding following the Horus Heresy in the early 31st Millennium. It had taken place in the 36th Millennium shortly before the start of the Age of Apostasy. Upon further explorations of the site, it was discovered that the geno-lab was indeed the site of the secret project known as "Homo Sapiens Novus," where Mechanicus Genetors attempted to perfect and remove the existing, identified deficiencies in flawed Astartes gene-seed, and ultimately begin the production of new and improved Primarch-like Space Marines. But their project was doomed to failure as the Genetors proved far less skilled in the genetic sciences than the Emperor of Mankind, and their efforts resulted in the development of seriously flawed gene-seed that was used to craft the organ implants for the new Chapters.
A secret vid-log of the former project manager revealed the full extent of their failure. The most seriously afflicted Chapters exhibited spontaneous and extreme physical corruption, turning them into a race no longer human or sane. Most of the Space Marine Chapters Founded during this time eventually turned Traitor and swore themselves to Chaos or met a gruesome end at the hands of other Space Marine Chapters and the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus. Others developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strained the tolerance of the Inquisition and threatened the Chapter's survival. The Founding itself ended when one of its projects, already corrupted by Chaos, sent a signal through the Warp and alerted the vile Traitor Fabius Bile to its existence. Bile was the former Chief Apothecary of the Emperor's Children Traitor Legion who served Chaos Undivided by seeking out new recruits for the Traitor Legions.
The Explorator team further discovered that there was a hidden laboratorium that contained three large incubation tanks with an enormous human male floating in amniotic fluid within each one. The physiology of these giants were similar to Space Marines, but the subjects were far larger than normal Astartes. Two of these tubes were obviously damaged, the fluid within cloudy and stagnant, but the third still appeared to be functioning. Autopsies were performed on two of the bodies while the revivification process was begun on the third. An agent of the Inquisition that had been inserted within the Adeptus Mechanicus some years ago reported the disturbing news of the discovery from the archaeological site on Inculaba. A Grey Knights team was dispatched to prevent the sacred technology of this site from falling into the wrong hands. But by the time they arrived, they found no trace of the Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator team and no sign of their vessel. The site was as bereft of life as a world stripped by the Tyranids. There were no bodies discovered and no evidence of any attackers. Astropaths detected a residual Warp trail, but were unable to discern its direction. The site was then bombed from orbit with Cyclonic Torpedoes and all record of it was expunged from the Imperial bureaucracy. The Inquisition fears that what was on this world is now gone, taken by the agents of Chaos, and that they will eventually rue the day that this cursed place was discovered anew.
—-----—
Maybe Cawl managed to retrive all the info before it all went legs up and worked on the problems and had a breaktrough afte all those millenias?
krazynadechukr wrote: I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.
A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.
Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.
that has no actual relevance to the lore reason
Exactly my point.
There's not going to be any "lore reason" to justify the new size marines. It is what it is. GW is making a new game with proper sized miniatures, and that is it. So many people trying to add some meaning or background to "why" GW are making "true scale." No. Nada, New minis, that's all. They'll sell more. Their "lore" is money. Stop trying to create some justification about the new sized minis.
What's your evidence for this not getting a lore explanation? Every new model release has an accompanying addition to the lore, although not so much when it's just a re-make of an already existing kit. This clearly isn't a re-make/replacement at this time as the older models are still being supported based off the devastator picture, and they are actual differences in the pattern of armour itself, not just more detail or new poses or whatever. Games workshop justifies their new models with new lore (or the other way around), they don't just shove out something new and go "we don't know how this makes sense in our setting, but give us money anyway".
Several others have said it already, but what's your source for this rumour being confirmed you mentioned a few days ago?
I still think the new faction is the Gullimarines and if you look at the Marine and Bolter stats shown you can see GW have left wiggle room for an improvement without going over the top.
A point of leadership here a extra wound there and a -1 rend to a newer type of bolter and you have an improvement over minimarines without being op.
miniholic wrote: Ah finaly the "Project Homo sapiens novus" is here!
And the big marines get their models! Ja!
And GW doesn't even have to retcon anything of their lore!
Ok, here for the younger ones a part of that rather okd article ( could be White Dwarf 261):
n 998.M41, Explorator Magos Marco Pteronus led an archeological expedition to the Dead World of Inculaba, discovering a long-lost Adeptus Mechanicus geno-lab. During excavation of the site it was discovered that buried deep within the rock of this barren world were secrets that had lain undiscovered for 5,000 standard years. Secrets regarding a Founding of the Space Marines sometimes referred to as the Cursed Founding. The 21st Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding following the Horus Heresy in the early 31st Millennium. It had taken place in the 36th Millennium shortly before the start of the Age of Apostasy. Upon further explorations of the site, it was discovered that the geno-lab was indeed the site of the secret project known as "Homo Sapiens Novus," where Mechanicus Genetors attempted to perfect and remove the existing, identified deficiencies in flawed Astartes gene-seed, and ultimately begin the production of new and improved Primarch-like Space Marines. But their project was doomed to failure as the Genetors proved far less skilled in the genetic sciences than the Emperor of Mankind, and their efforts resulted in the development of seriously flawed gene-seed that was used to craft the organ implants for the new Chapters.
A secret vid-log of the former project manager revealed the full extent of their failure. The most seriously afflicted Chapters exhibited spontaneous and extreme physical corruption, turning them into a race no longer human or sane. Most of the Space Marine Chapters Founded during this time eventually turned Traitor and swore themselves to Chaos or met a gruesome end at the hands of other Space Marine Chapters and the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus. Others developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strained the tolerance of the Inquisition and threatened the Chapter's survival. The Founding itself ended when one of its projects, already corrupted by Chaos, sent a signal through the Warp and alerted the vile Traitor Fabius Bile to its existence. Bile was the former Chief Apothecary of the Emperor's Children Traitor Legion who served Chaos Undivided by seeking out new recruits for the Traitor Legions.
The Explorator team further discovered that there was a hidden laboratorium that contained three large incubation tanks with an enormous human male floating in amniotic fluid within each one. The physiology of these giants were similar to Space Marines, but the subjects were far larger than normal Astartes. Two of these tubes were obviously damaged, the fluid within cloudy and stagnant, but the third still appeared to be functioning. Autopsies were performed on two of the bodies while the revivification process was begun on the third. An agent of the Inquisition that had been inserted within the Adeptus Mechanicus some years ago reported the disturbing news of the discovery from the archaeological site on Inculaba. A Grey Knights team was dispatched to prevent the sacred technology of this site from falling into the wrong hands. But by the time they arrived, they found no trace of the Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator team and no sign of their vessel. The site was as bereft of life as a world stripped by the Tyranids. There were no bodies discovered and no evidence of any attackers. Astropaths detected a residual Warp trail, but were unable to discern its direction. The site was then bombed from orbit with Cyclonic Torpedoes and all record of it was expunged from the Imperial bureaucracy. The Inquisition fears that what was on this world is now gone, taken by the agents of Chaos, and that they will eventually rue the day that this cursed place was discovered anew.
—-----—
Maybe Cawl managed to retrive all the info before it all went legs up and worked on the problems and had a breaktrough afte all those millenias?
Old-school GW was all about putting fluff "hooks" into the background for things they might explore one day*. C'tan, Tau (Necromunda spyrer suits!), Hrud, this. But some of those are better left alone, because having the answers and super-duper Marines around is not as cool as the mysterious blurb makes it out. Same with *cough* Primarchs returning *cough*, IMO.
*something AoS lore really struggles with, IMO. They seem more interested in throwing random names out for places or events to sound cool, but one never heard of those and never will know more, so why would you care that the inhabotanta of the Skulltoad Islands were put to the sword by Bloodbound, - even if it were ten quadrillion people that were then turned into interior devoration for Khorno followers.
I'm still reckoning they are regular Marines upsized instead of a new unit because they're just too plain looking for a modern GW special unit. They look like they've been intentionally made plain looking so that there can be more special dudes added later. If they were Gulliman's fancy new marines I'd expect them to look fancy right out of the gate.
So far everything points to these just being a better representation of astartes than what's currently available. Any background jiggery pokery I feel will be for the purpose of justifying oldmarines rather than numarines. Who really is going to be buying 2012 tac squads when they can get straight up better miniatures with better rules?
Mentlegen324 wrote: What's your evidence for this not getting a lore explanation? Every new model release has an accompanying addition to the lore, although not so much when it's just a re-make of an already existing kit. This clearly isn't a re-make/replacement at this time as the older models are still being supported based off the devastator picture, and they are actual differences in the pattern of armour itself, not just more detail or new poses or whatever. Games workshop justifies their new models with new lore (or the other way around), they don't just shove out something new and go "we don't know how this makes sense in our setting, but give us money anyway".
Several others have said it already, but what's your source for this rumour being confirmed you mentioned a few days ago?
When the new assault marine box came out, there wasn't an in lore explanation of how they're different to the older ones. They were just released. When the Tactical marines were last updated with Grav weapons, there wasn't a long fangled lore explanation of how every Space Marine Chapter found Grav weapons under the stairs. Sure as you say new models get lore, but replacements of older kits generally don't.
1) They look like they're equipped with weaponry of tactical marines
2) They've been painted as tactical marines
3) They're not festooned with bits and pieces to denote a super duper special unit
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck
The only difference between these marines and the existing tactical marines is a couple of detail changes on the armour and a couple of mm in height. Changes that are impossible to differentiate from a couple of feet away. I'm just not seeing GW making rule changes between these and other marines simply because you can't tell them apart when playing. "These marines that look like tactical marines and these other tactical marines are different really"
Mentlegen324 wrote: What's your evidence for this not getting a lore explanation? Every new model release has an accompanying addition to the lore, although not so much when it's just a re-make of an already existing kit. This clearly isn't a re-make/replacement at this time as the older models are still being supported based off the devastator picture, and they are actual differences in the pattern of armour itself, not just more detail or new poses or whatever. Games workshop justifies their new models with new lore (or the other way around), they don't just shove out something new and go "we don't know how this makes sense in our setting, but give us money anyway".
Several others have said it already, but what's your source for this rumour being confirmed you mentioned a few days ago?
When the new assault marine box came out, there wasn't an in lore explanation of how they're different to the older ones. They were just released. When the Tactical marines were last updated with Grav weapons, there wasn't a long fangled lore explanation of how every Space Marine Chapter found Grav weapons under the stairs. Sure as you say new models get lore, but replacements of older kits generally don't.
The new Assault Marine box also wasn't taller or bulkier models, and just really added Eviscerators and Grav Pistols.
So are these new scale marines out? I bought a box of Tac marines and they seem different? But then I'm not normally a major SM player. They def came with the bigger base for sure.
I bought a box of Tac marines and they seem different? But then I'm not normally a major SM player. They def came with the bigger base for sure.
Was it this box?
Spoiler:
If so, that's the box that has been out for a decent while now. The 32mm bases are standard for Marine models; barring a few older kits(Dark Angels Company Veterans, for example) which were released pre-32mm bases and haven't been repacked yet.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck
The only difference between these marines and the existing tactical marines is a couple of detail changes on the armour and a couple of mm in height. Changes that are impossible to differentiate from a couple of feet away. I'm just not seeing GW making rule changes between these and other marines simply because you can't tell them apart when playing. "These marines that look like tactical marines and these other tactical marines are different really"
By looking at the models, I'd absolutely agree. To me it would seem highly weird, if this new breed of supposed super marines would sport perfectly normal UM tactical livery. Then again, several people, some highly reliable, are saying that these are a fundamentally new sort of marine. I really don't know what to think.
In any case, I really hope that the übermarine fluff is not true, it would instantly devalue the old marines in a very fundamental way.
Well I think they have to offer some lore justification, even if only a cursory one, otherwise Marine players are going to feel like their entire collection has just been invalidated in a single stroke. Especially those who bought those expensive FW armour conversion kits.
It sets a bad precident as well, are they going to do the same to other armies? I don't want to have all my Slugga boys to suddenly turn out to be too small to properly represent Space Orks! It would put the dampners on my 8th edition army plans even though I don't play marines.
I liked what they did with AoS. They essentially said 'All your current models are completely legitimate representations of things in this new world, but we also have loads of cool new gak to show you'. That seems much more inclusive to me, even the kits they longer sell are still included in the lore and the tabletop rules.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck
The only difference between these marines and the existing tactical marines is a couple of detail changes on the armour and a couple of mm in height. Changes that are impossible to differentiate from a couple of feet away. I'm just not seeing GW making rule changes between these and other marines simply because you can't tell them apart when playing. "These marines that look like tactical marines and these other tactical marines are different really"
By looking at the models, I'd absolutely agree. To me it would seem highly weird, if this new breed of supposed super marines would sport perfectly normal UM tactical livery. Then again, several people, some highly reliable, are saying that these are a fundamentally new sort of marine. I really don't know what to think.
In any case, I really hope that the übermarine fluff is not true, it would instantly devalue the old marines in a very fundamental way.
I've had some time to think and maybe the original pic is of a prototype that the sculptor made to give the concept to GW. They then went and produced the actual models in the next pic we have. That is why there are similarities, but still different enough to tell.
As for them being uber marines. I vaguely remember reading the Horus Heresey story where the raven guard accelerate the growth cycle of a marine and this could just be that since big G is preparing for the coming storm. Perhaps they don't need to even find human hosts anymore and create it all in a lab. That would make building up forces easier. I could also see them crank out millions of these troops while still rebuilding the legions the regular route, only to have big G and Cawl die or the technology get destroyed during the coming storm. Then the replacements are not replaceable and that's why their numbers never exceed chapter strength.
Kroem wrote: Well I think they have to offer some lore justification, even if only a cursory one, otherwise Marine players are going to feel like their entire collection has just been invalidated in a single stroke.
Especially those who bought those expensive FW armour conversion kits.
The size of the marines has been increased several times previously, and there has never been any fluff reasons given.
Kroem wrote: I liked what they did with AoS. They essentially said 'All your current models are completely legitemite representations of things in this new world, but we also have loads of cool new gak to show you'. That seems much more inclusive to me, even the kits they longer sell are still included in the lore and the tabletop rules.
And if these new Marines are just updates for the existing Marine kits, the old ones will also be legitimate representations of Marines just as much as all the discontinued WHFB/AoS kits are still legitimate representations of whatever they once were.
GW have upsized models several times in the past with no explanation given.
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Theophony wrote: I've had some time to think and maybe the original pic is of a prototype that the sculptor made to give the concept to GW. They then went and produced the actual models in the next pic we have. That is why there are similarities, but still different enough to tell.
What differences are there? They look pretty much the same to me (at least as well as I can tell from the tiny blurry pics we have).
Kroem wrote: It sets a bad precident as well, are they going to do the same to other armies? I don't want to have all my Slugga boys to suddenly turn out to be too small to properly represent Space Orks!
I'm not saying it hasn't happened before or indeed that it cannot happen, what I am saying is that I think it would be a bad idea to do it now.
The 'scaling up' must have been pre 3rd edition. I still have old orks and marines from then, I just looked and can't see any difference in scale.
The only marines I have that look smaller are the ones from the old starter paint set.
The installed user base now has to be alot higher than it was at the start of 3rd edition right? I think people are alot more willing to give feedback (i.e. complain) now that the internet exists as well.
We can only really guess as to whether or not it's a good idea for GW to change the aesthetic of Space Marines at this point in time.
Sure, it's going to piss off some customers, but other customers are going to prefer the new Marines and others still might not like it but will still buy the new ones. Without taking a comprehensive poll who knows which group is bigger.
We know from GW killing WHFB in favour of AoS they aren't afraid to piss off some of their customer base if they think they can make up for it elsewhere.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: We can only really guess as to whether or not it's a good idea for GW to change the aesthetic of Space Marines at this point in time.
Sure, it's going to piss off some customers, but other customers are going to prefer the new Marines and others still might not like it but will still buy the new ones. Without taking a comprehensive poll who knows which group is bigger.
We know from GW killing WHFB in favour of AoS they aren't afraid to piss off some of their customer base if they think they can make up for it elsewhere.
Wasn't that a decision by the previous management though? Considering the whole "This is the new GW!" thing that even GW are trying to get people to believe, suddenly invalidating everyones Marines and all the related armies would likely completely destroy any trust built up after that.
The only way i can see this working without either problems with the lore or problems with the current models is if this is just a "You've wanted True-scale Marines for years? Well now you have an official option for those!" situation, but that doesn't line up with what a few of the rumours have said about their being a new type of them.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: suddenly invalidating everyones Marines and all the related armies
Because marines got 2mm taller?
That would not invalidate anyone's army, it has happened before. However, if fluff and rules-wise there will be a new breed of marines that are just like marines, except better (not just specialised like GK and DW) then it kinda invalidates old marines.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: suddenly invalidating everyones Marines and all the related armies
Because marines got 2mm taller?
That would not invalidate anyone's army, it has happened before. However, if fluff and rules-wise there will be a new breed of marines that are just like marines, except better (not just specialised like GK and DW) then it kinda invalidates old marines.
This is why I don't think we'll get a new marine faction. Just a new mk of armour and some background about guilliman shaking up the production process. Have them all grown in vats or something.
I think I'd be fine with them if they were Ultramarine only. Like how Wulfen, Sanguinary Guard, and Deathwing Knights are all chapter unique units. Giving Ultramarines something not-generic would be great.
Unless they somehow want to push the heresy of other chapters allowing girlyman geneseeded marines into their chapter. Or if they go the approach of 'every chapter BUT space wolves/dark angels/blood angels can use them!' like they always do.
I'm cautiously optimistic. They have a lot of ways to screw this up.
Don Savik wrote: I think I'd be fine with them if they were Ultramarine only. Like how Wulfen, Sanguinary Guard, and Deathwing Knights are all chapter unique units. Giving Ultramarines something not-generic would be great.
Unless they somehow want to push the heresy of other chapters allowing girlyman geneseeded marines into their chapter. Or if they go the approach of 'every chapter BUT space wolves/dark angels/blood angels can use them!' like they always do.
I'm cautiously optimistic. They have a lot of ways to screw this up.
I get the impression you are assuming Codex: SPACE MARINES is ultramarines. THere are a lot more chapters that are different than just BA/DA/SW. Those just happen to have separate books. There is no chance the Ravenguard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, White Scars or Iron Hands would welcome some new random geneseed.
Don Savik wrote: I think I'd be fine with them if they were Ultramarine only. Like how Wulfen, Sanguinary Guard, and Deathwing Knights are all chapter unique units. Giving Ultramarines something not-generic would be great.
Unless they somehow want to push the heresy of other chapters allowing girlyman geneseeded marines into their chapter. Or if they go the approach of 'every chapter BUT space wolves/dark angels/blood angels can use them!' like they always do.
I'm cautiously optimistic. They have a lot of ways to screw this up.
I get the impression you are assuming Codex: SPACE MARINES is ultramarines. THere are a lot more chapters that are different than just BA/DA/SW. Those just happen to have separate books. There is no chance the Ravenguard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, White Scars or Iron Hands would welcome some new random geneseed.
Oh no, I know how it is. I should've said they should be for chapter tactics: ultramarines only. It would spit on the lore to have Roboute and his heretical buddy Cawl impose new super-marines on all the chapters. But if they flush out ultramarines more they should at least give more love to the other chapters you mentioned.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: We can only really guess as to whether or not it's a good idea for GW to change the aesthetic of Space Marines at this point in time.
Sure, it's going to piss off some customers, but other customers are going to prefer the new Marines and others still might not like it but will still buy the new ones. Without taking a comprehensive poll who knows which group is bigger.
We know from GW killing WHFB in favour of AoS they aren't afraid to piss off some of their customer base if they think they can make up for it elsewhere.
Considering what happened to most metal terminators when the new ones became bigger, this is a valid point should the marines suddenly become larger in such a more noticeable fashion.
Oh no, I know how it is. I should've said they should be for chapter tactics: ultramarines only.
This would be terrible. It would be the wardian fan-spank coming literally true.
So how is it ok for Space Wolves to get Wulfen and TWC but Ultramarines can't get anything unique? I thought people didn't want ultramarines to be so vanilla. Wouldn't it be weirder having Salamanders that look like blonde haired romans?
Is it just because they're taller? I mean, I think either way we go with this its going to rub people the wrong way. Either we give ultramarines some cool things or we screw over lore by having Guilliman and Cawl enforce new-marines of their own geneseed on other chapters. Lose, lose if you ask me.
So how is it ok for Space Wolves to get Wulfen and TWC but Ultramarines can't get anything unique? I thought people didn't want ultramarines to be so vanilla.
Being vanilla is the whole point of Ultras.
Wouldn't it be weirder having Salamanders that look like blonde haired romans?
Yes. But them getting some new fancy armour wouldn't.
Is it just because they're taller? I mean, I think either way we go with this its going to rub people the wrong way. Either we give ultramarines some cool things or we screw over lore by having Guilliman and Cawl enforce new-marines of their own geneseed on other chapters. Lose, lose if you ask me.
Indeed. And that's why übermarines from Guilliman's blood is a terrible idea, and I really, really, hope that it's not what this is about.
It already doesnt make sense because the Emps already made them the best compared to his sons compared to the custode... so its already dumb if they arent just re doing the SM line, and giving standard marines 'upgrade' armor or weapon options not inline with what they already have.
because literally every other chapter and chaptermaster will be garbage, in theory compared to the new bigger better stronger versions.
something like that should theoretically start a revolt.
What about vat grown blanks, their DNA based on guillimans who then have chapter specific geneseed implanted. Wouldn't really be that bad as primarchs are all based on the emperors DNA anyway. Since ultramarines are the most standard marines so to speak it may not be that big a deal. Cawl would just have to remove the book keeping gene.
The result would be higher quality base material which can be churned out quickly to fight the 13th black crusade plus other threats.
If they introduce in the lore Guillimarines and then half the Chapters start a revolt to topple Guilliman because they felt totally substituted and worthless like objects (And, to Terra, they are. Space Marines are just a weapon) it can be even a good lore advancement.
The old marines fighting against the opresion of being just put aside as obsolete weapons after centuries of fighting for the future of Humankind.
Guilliman:The Chapster Masters need to be substituted by the new generation of loyal Guillimarines. Execute order 66. Cato Sicarius:Yes, master... *unsheathe his bolter and gun down Marneus Calgar from the back*
I stand corrected. My local Gw manager (who told me about a new thunder hawk, overlords, and death watch before public knowledge) said the new marines are RGs new breed. Old marines are still valid and these will have new stats. They're between custodes and current marines in the line up of things....
AllSeeingSkink wrote: We can only really guess as to whether or not it's a good idea for GW to change the aesthetic of Space Marines at this point in time.
Sure, it's going to piss off some customers, but other customers are going to prefer the new Marines and others still might not like it but will still buy the new ones. Without taking a comprehensive poll who knows which group is bigger.
We know from GW killing WHFB in favour of AoS they aren't afraid to piss off some of their customer base if they think they can make up for it elsewhere.
Wasn't that a decision by the previous management though? Considering the whole "This is the new GW!" thing that even GW are trying to get people to believe, suddenly invalidating everyones Marines and all the related armies would likely completely destroy any trust built up after that.
The decision was probably made under the old management, but wasn't it carried out under the current management?
Also killing Bretonnians and Tomb Kings and a lot of the old WHFB units.
The only way i can see this working without either problems with the lore or problems with the current models is if this is just a "You've wanted True-scale Marines for years? Well now you have an official option for those!" situation,
Well there's always going to be "problems", my point wasn't that there wouldn't be problems, it was that we can only guess as to the extent of those problems vs the possible benefits.
There's a lot of Marine players who might be unhappy with those problems, but there's going to be a lot who always felt the old models looked derpy and will be happy to see embiggened Marines.
but that doesn't line up with what a few of the rumours have said about their being a new type of them.
The rumours on new Marines IMO are to be taken with a grain of salt. A relatively reliable rumourmonger in Hastings has been shown to be wrong when he said the new Marine leaked picture didn't match the description he'd been given.
Except that is exactly the reason to disregard that. They were "described" to Hastings. If the descriptor or Hastings misspoke or misunderstood then we have a precise rumour being undermined by its own progenitor because he got the wrong mental image when something was explained to him.
There was also another rumour from JamesY where his source said it wasn't exactly like the things he was working on, but did implicitly confirm that these nuMarines were a thing, so there's a chance that there were some mods done to the original leaked model also.
Both Hastings and Sad Panda have, to a greater or lesser degree, suggested that the organic bit in those new MkX suits is also new though.
There's a whole heap of possibilities. Maybe there's a new type of Marine on top of the ones we've seen. Maybe the decisions in house have been changed since the rumourmongers heard them. Maybe there were multiple rumours released prior to deciding on which path to actually take. Maybe the rumours refer to a new Marine concept that was killed. Maybe GW purposely released some false rumours to try and crack down on leaks.
My point was simply that we don't have to assume these Marines are going to perfectly match with the rumours.
Regardless of what the rumours say I'm still erring on the side of these Marines being a replacement for the current Marines or a new mark in which the existing Marines live simply because that's what they look like to me. They simply look too plain and too much like regular Tacticals for me to believe they are new super-marines. Unless GW are introducing a whole new Marine sub-faction and these are just the basic troops in that sub-faction, but that seems a bit implausible at this stage.
My only beef with this new lore/marines is that it should have been ravenguard(corvax), since they have history of fething around with marine making. I know ultra lore tends to be...uninspired..but sheesh.
Ah, but think about this - 40K armour is ornate for officers and veterans because it is revered and ancient and has been maintained, repaired and decorated for millennia.
MkX is brand new, and manufactured under the auspices of Guilliman who believes in the secular imperium and won't consider armour venerable relics.
Hence MkX will be all about function and not decoration.
I mean didn't Guilliman himself awake from his long sleep, look at the armour wrought to sustain him and declare "what the feth is all this swirly gak everywhere?!"
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Bulldogging wrote: My only beef with this new lore/marines is that it should have been ravenguard(corvax), since they have history of fething around with marine making. I know ultra lore tends to be...uninspired..but sheesh.
Or, RG have a history of spectacularly fething up when fething around with Marine making?
Azreal13 wrote: Ah, but think about this - 40K armour is ornate for officers and veterans because it is revered and ancient and has been maintained, repaired and decorated for millennia.
MkX is brand new, and manufactured under the auspices of Guilliman who believes in the secular imperium and won't consider armour venerable relics.
Hence MkX will be all about function and not decoration.
I mean didn't Guilliman himself awake from his long sleep, look at the armour wrought to sustain him and declare "what the feth is all this swirly gak everywhere?!"
Yeah.... maybe if we were looking for a realistic explanation, but I'm talking about GW here, not reality, in GW's world anything special has to be absolutely caked in ornate looking details regardless of anything else
Bulldogging wrote: My only beef with this new lore/marines is that it should have been ravenguard(corvax), since they have history of fething around with marine making. I know ultra lore tends to be...uninspired..but sheesh.
Or, RG have a history of spectacularly fething up when fething around with Marine making?
Hah, yeah, thanks to alpha legion. Doesn't change that somewhere in the Raven spire there is/could be the information needed that didn't require a handwave for the ultras and could let the ravenguard enjoy some positive attention. I don't play ravenguad, and my largest army is admech led by Cawl, the deliverer of ultramarine "more awesome stuff" (love that model) so I'm not hating.
RG would prefer to standardize Space Marines, because they are too fragmented in their current state.
The original rumour/leak stated that these RG Marines will come from MARS. I thought they would be local to Ultra, but this makes sense if you want to supply the Imperium with weapons and equipment/Mk X etc, you would pick a location like Mars.
RG will actually try to standardize Marine recuitment and training, all Marines will meet the same standard now. Chapters like DA, BA, BT already have upgrade kits to look different, and I think that's what GW is slowly pushing towards, if you want a standard Marine look, go with the new marines, if you like old school with some flavour for your chapter of choice, grab the upgrade kit. Lore wise, these chapters will continue to recruit and create Marines the way they think is right, which leads to really different looking Marine forces, eventually.
I think they will make the original Marines larger, and I wouldn't be surprised if this scale creep went up for all forces eventually, leaving IG and others small because it makes sense for them to be smaller.
CRACKPOT TIME
LOOK at the previous Ultramarines artwork and colours what do we always see? 2nd Company, GOLD and BLUE.
NOW if you look at the colour wheel, what colour is opposite to yellow/gold? Blue and PURPLE, and who have Ultramarines been fighting a lot in the last few years? TYRANIDS! To be specific PURPLE Tyranids. Why is this important?
Because for the first time, we see the 3RD COMPANY in the painting booklet.. which is RED and BLUE, and what is the opposite colour to RED in the colour wheel? GREEN!
And what faction has green as a primary colour.... PLAGUE MARINES - yes.. you have just stepped through the looking glass.
Has anyone considered that GW might be setting up for a Horus Heresy Round 2?
I have no rumors or inside knowledge to base it on, but just a feeling going off of what we've seen recently or know is coming.
1) Return of the Primarchs
I don't think there's much to say on this other than we know more primarchs are coming from the Atia, Sadpanda, and (iirc) Hastings rumors. I think even the most cynical people here can agree that after Mortarion we are going to get at least 1 more primarch, but personally I'm guessing GW will bring back as many primarchs as possible.
Also fluffwise their reappearance doesn't seem to be just a short term pillaging of the setting history. Where in the past a daemon primarch might show up for a single plot point only to then feth off back to the warp, its looking pretty likely that this is going to be a long, drawn out conflict. With Magnus pulling the Planet of Sorcerors into the material realm and Mortarion seemingly gunning for Guilliman directly it doesn't seem like this will be a one and done affair.
2) GW's stated focus on Imperium vs Chaos for the near future
Considering that Space Marines are the poster boys for both the Chaos and Imperial factions it only makes sense that we'll be seeing a lot of marine vs marine battles with Xenos taking the backseat in upcoming books. This means that there will be a lot more opportunities to explore the change in relations and rivalries between the first founders and fallen legions over the course of the last 10k years in much the same way that the HH focuses on how the legions reevaluate their place in the Imperium and their relationships with one another.
We can see this in the difference in treatment between Primarch Descendant Chapters/Legions vs the Unknown Origin Chapters/Renegades. Unknown descendant Chapters get no special rules at all while Renegades are only represented by the "much loved" Crimson Slaughter book which to my understanding was more or reprinted in Traitor Legions as the Word Bearers tactics...
Meanwhile between the core SM codex, SW codex, BA codex, DA codex, and Angels of Death all 9 descendant chapters have at least some amount of rules and wargear if not also special units to represent them uniquely. The chaos legions has similarly gained Traitor Legions, Thousand Sons, and soon Death Guard to add unique rules, wargear, and special units back into the mix.
How this relates to Guillimarines. A core element of the Horus Heresy fluff is how each legion's primarch shaped their own legion to be specialized on a certain type of warfare which is represented in the game as a some unique units, special rules, and wargear wrapped around an identical core astartes list. However until recently 4th - 7th Editions of 40k homogenized most marines into just being different colored armor on the same armies. But with Thousand Sons and Death Guard it seems that GW really want to bring back unique astartes units (if for no reason other than to sell new minis to people who have already completed their SM and CSM armies).
So if the supposed rumors of the Nu Marines being Ultramarines only are true then they could be their unique units. I mean they are essentially exactly what the Ultras would make, a +1 version of the most flexible existing units like Tacticals and Assault Marines. So maybe if we get Corax, Dorn, Jaghatai, etc back then they will also bring with them new special units for their own descendants.
Has it been mentioned yet that the 40th anniversary White Dwarf model is not only wearing the new style armour but also has one of the new bolt pistol designs as a present on his base.
There was also another rumour from JamesY where his source said it wasn't exactly like the things he was working on, but did implicitly confirm that these nuMarines were a thing, so there's a chance that there were some mods done to the original leaked model
Sorry I must not have communicated what I meant properly. The person I spoke to said that the model in that picture definitely was the nu armour, but they hadn't seen that specific model themselves, so someone from a different part of the studio had built it from the sprue. No different from a first look at a space marine and being able to identify that it was built from a sternguard box, for example. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
krazynadechukr wrote: I stand corrected. My local Gw manager (who told me about a new thunder hawk, overlords, and death watch before public knowledge) said the new marines are RGs new breed. Old marines are still valid and these will have new stats. They're between custodes and current marines in the line up of things....
So exactly what the original rumour from one of the most reliable guys (which was then commented on without correction by THE most reliable rumourmongers) said?
Jack Flask wrote: Has anyone considered that GW might be setting up for a Horus Heresy Round 2?
Seems more like a Great crusade remix to me. If these are Marines V2 I'd hope that GW write the background so they can be made from existing geenseed and not just Robute's genetic material. Not everyone that plays vanilla SM plays Ultras or there successor's.
The heroes of the old Imperium being replaced by new ones Imagine how some of them may feel. Not too different than some of the traitor legions 10k years ago...
Jack Flask wrote: Has anyone considered that GW might be setting up for a Horus Heresy Round 2?
Seems more like a Great crusade remix to me. If these are Marines V2 I'd hope that GW write the background so they can be made from existing geenseed and not just Robute's genetic material. Not everyone that plays vanilla SM plays Ultras or there successor's.
To be fair, aren't about 50% of Space Marine chapters supposed to be Ultramarine successors? So could take the new units without any significant fluff contortions?
Jadenim wrote: To be fair, aren't about 50% of Space Marine chapters supposed to be Ultramarine successors? So could take the new units without any significant fluff contortions?
True but there are still the White scars, Imperial fists, Salamanders, Raven guard, Iron hands and there respective successor chapters. The fluff doesn't really reflect the real world spread of army's otherwise 90% of 40k players would be running IG and Orks
krazynadechukr wrote: I stand corrected. My local Gw manager (who told me about a new thunder hawk, overlords, and death watch before public knowledge) said the new marines are RGs new breed. Old marines are still valid and these will have new stats. They're between custodes and current marines in the line up of things....
So exactly what the original rumour from one of the most reliable guys (which was then commented on without correction by THE most reliable rumourmongers) said?
Who knew?
keep in mind the store manager could well have simply been reapting what he'd read on sites like this one. I've been warned by a few GW employees that "my sources are rarely any better then what you hear over the 'net
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Jack Flask wrote: Has anyone considered that GW might be setting up for a Horus Heresy Round 2?
I have no rumors or inside knowledge to base it on, but just a feeling going off of what we've seen recently or know is coming.
1) Return of the Primarchs
I don't think there's much to say on this other than we know more primarchs are coming from the Atia, Sadpanda, and (iirc) Hastings rumors. I think even the most cynical people here can agree that after Mortarion we are going to get at least 1 more primarch, but personally I'm guessing GW will bring back as many primarchs as possible.
Also fluffwise their reappearance doesn't seem to be just a short term pillaging of the setting history. Where in the past a daemon primarch might show up for a single plot point only to then feth off back to the warp, its looking pretty likely that this is going to be a long, drawn out conflict. With Magnus pulling the Planet of Sorcerors into the material realm and Mortarion seemingly gunning for Guilliman directly it doesn't seem like this will be a one and done affair.
2) GW's stated focus on Imperium vs Chaos for the near future
Considering that Space Marines are the poster boys for both the Chaos and Imperial factions it only makes sense that we'll be seeing a lot of marine vs marine battles with Xenos taking the backseat in upcoming books. This means that there will be a lot more opportunities to explore the change in relations and rivalries between the first founders and fallen legions over the course of the last 10k years in much the same way that the HH focuses on how the legions reevaluate their place in the Imperium and their relationships with one another.
We can see this in the difference in treatment between Primarch Descendant Chapters/Legions vs the Unknown Origin Chapters/Renegades. Unknown descendant Chapters get no special rules at all while Renegades are only represented by the "much loved" Crimson Slaughter book which to my understanding was more or reprinted in Traitor Legions as the Word Bearers tactics...
Meanwhile between the core SM codex, SW codex, BA codex, DA codex, and Angels of Death all 9 descendant chapters have at least some amount of rules and wargear if not also special units to represent them uniquely. The chaos legions has similarly gained Traitor Legions, Thousand Sons, and soon Death Guard to add unique rules, wargear, and special units back into the mix.
How this relates to Guillimarines. A core element of the Horus Heresy fluff is how each legion's primarch shaped their own legion to be specialized on a certain type of warfare which is represented in the game as a some unique units, special rules, and wargear wrapped around an identical core astartes list. However until recently 4th - 7th Editions of 40k homogenized most marines into just being different colored armor on the same armies. But with Thousand Sons and Death Guard it seems that GW really want to bring back unique astartes units (if for no reason other than to sell new minis to people who have already completed their SM and CSM armies).
So if the supposed rumors of the Nu Marines being Ultramarines only are true then they could be their unique units. I mean they are essentially exactly what the Ultras would make, a +1 version of the most flexible existing units like Tacticals and Assault Marines. So maybe if we get Corax, Dorn, Jaghatai, etc back then they will also bring with them new special units for their own descendants.
HH round 2 is a good way to put it, I think we need to step back and look, GW is making a fairly solid change here, and we need to look at what those changes are. Firstly, GW is apparently listening to the player base but they're also a company, so they're also gonna be looking at what we're buying, so, outside of what unit is broken and what new power lists emerged at what tourny, what's the MOST talked about thing among the 40k fanbase? the answer? the horus Heresy. players like the solid storyline, with the alrger then lfie figures etc (and yes not everyone does but as a general rule it seems to be popular) so I expect we'll see that emerge, so a evolving storyline focusing on characters more then anything else. we've seen it with gathering storm, where the real focus wasn't on the battles but the great characters and how they interacted with said battles. I expect that feel to continue.
which means, in my opinion we can proably start to see some variation among the chapters (something that GW's been trying hard for even before this new leaf) as well as likely a slew of new heros for the various factions. Since it started with Wraith of Magnus, we've gotten a slew of new special characters,most likely we'll see trimvirates contining, while chaos will instead get a single demon primarch mini
Not sure if this has already been pointed out. But I just remembered that Cato Sicarius, captain of the Ultras 2nd company(red trim) went to Terra alongside Robute. If the starter box is Numarines vs Death guard, could the background be Sicarius leading his "new" 2nd company back to Ultramar?
GoatboyBeta wrote: Not sure if this has already been pointed out. But I just remembered that Cato Sicarius, captain of the Ultras 2nd company(red trim) went to Terra alongside Robute. If the starter box is Numarines vs Death guard, could the background be Sicarius leading his "new" 2nd company back to Ultramar?
Hmm. Good observation. This would imply that the übermarines are somehow upgraded from existing marines, which I think would be preferable to them being a completely separate creation. This would allow existing characters to be relevant, they'd just receive 2.0 upgrade (still rather lame, but better than the old guys just being completely sidelined.)
GoatboyBeta wrote: Not sure if this has already been pointed out. But I just remembered that Cato Sicarius, captain of the Ultras 2nd company(red trim) went to Terra alongside Robute. If the starter box is Numarines vs Death guard, could the background be Sicarius leading his "new" 2nd company back to Ultramar?
The Second Company of a Codex Chapter has Gold Trim, Cato Sicarius therefore has Gold Trim.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Not sure if this has already been pointed out. But I just remembered that Cato Sicarius, captain of the Ultras 2nd company(red trim) went to Terra alongside Robute. If the starter box is Numarines vs Death guard, could the background be Sicarius leading his "new" 2nd company back to Ultramar?
Hmm. Good observation. This would imply that the übermarines are somehow upgraded from existing marines, which I think would be preferable to them being a completely separate creation. This would allow existing characters to be relevant, they'd just receive 2.0 upgrade (still rather lame, but better than the old guys just being completely sidelined.)
To be honest most of the lore reasons people are coming up with sound more horrible than GW just upsizing the existing Marines with no explanation
I also don't really see where a new variety of Marine would sit stats wise. Even though GW have expanded the stat line above 10, we've seen the statlines for Marines and Terminators and I don't reckon there's going to be space between Marines, Terminators and Custodes to fit another intermediate Marine.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To be honest most of the lore reasons people are coming up with sound more horrible than GW just upsizing the existing Marines with no explanation
Well, yeah. I literally cannot imagine a fluff justification for this that wouldn't be hella awkward.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To be honest most of the lore reasons people are coming up with sound more horrible than GW just upsizing the existing Marines with no explanation
I also don't really see where a new variety of Marine would sit stats wise. Even though GW have expanded the stat line above 10, we've seen the statlines for Marines and Terminators and I don't reckon there's going to be space between Marines, Terminators and Custodes to fit another intermediate Marine.
You are really underestimating GW's desire for pushing more marines. They did Marines inside Marines some years ago! Marines 1.5 between Marines 1.0 and Marines 2.0 (Custodes) is a total posibility.
krazynadechukr wrote: I stand corrected. My local Gw manager (who told me about a new thunder hawk, overlords, and death watch before public knowledge) said the new marines are RGs new breed. Old marines are still valid and these will have new stats. They're between custodes and current marines in the line up of things....
So exactly what the original rumour from one of the most reliable guys (which was then commented on without correction by THE most reliable rumourmongers) said?
Who knew?
Not me!
For those of us who are unaware of the "original rumor" and who this "most reliable" source is, enlighten us.
I'm actually glad I was unaware of it. I thought these fluff theories were just people's theories to justify Gw going to true scale. Glad I got another source, from GW, that mirrors this "original " rumor!
Always good to have multiple sources say the same thing.
krazynadechukr wrote: I stand corrected. My local Gw manager (who told me about a new thunder hawk, overlords, and death watch before public knowledge) said the new marines are RGs new breed. Old marines are still valid and these will have new stats. They're between custodes and current marines in the line up of things....
So exactly what the original rumour from one of the most reliable guys (which was then commented on without correction by THE most reliable rumourmongers) said?
Who knew?
Not me!
For those of us who are unaware of the "original rumor" and who this "most reliable" source is, enlighten us.
I'm actually glad I was unaware of it. I thought these fluff theories were just people's theories to justify Gw going to true scale. Glad I got another source, from GW, that mirrors this "original " rumor!
Always good to have multiple sources say the same thing.
Can't wait to get back into 40k!
Probably referring to Hastings.
GW store managers generally don't know crap about anything. At BEST they're just echoing what they themselves have heard on the internet, at worst they make crap up that has no basis in truth or reality (I'm still waiting on my Dreadnought sized Necron that a store manager told me about around 20 years ago ).
krazynadechukr wrote: I stand corrected. My local Gw manager (who told me about a new thunder hawk, overlords, and death watch before public knowledge) said the new marines are RGs new breed. Old marines are still valid and these will have new stats. They're between custodes and current marines in the line up of things....
So exactly what the original rumour from one of the most reliable guys (which was then commented on without correction by THE most reliable rumourmongers) said?
Who knew?
Not me!
For those of us who are unaware of the "original rumor" and who this "most reliable" source is, enlighten us.
I'm actually glad I was unaware of it. I thought these fluff theories were just people's theories to justify Gw going to true scale. Glad I got another source, from GW, that mirrors this "original " rumor!
Always good to have multiple sources say the same thing.
Can't wait to get back into 40k!
Can we please add "no commenting in a thread unless you've at least read the OP" to "the rules" please?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To be honest most of the lore reasons people are coming up with sound more horrible than GW just upsizing the existing Marines with no explanation
I also don't really see where a new variety of Marine would sit stats wise. Even though GW have expanded the stat line above 10, we've seen the statlines for Marines and Terminators and I don't reckon there's going to be space between Marines, Terminators and Custodes to fit another intermediate Marine.
As I said previously it's easy to see the gaps left for Gullimarines over Minimarines.
+1ld is easy to spot then +1w for defense as changing T might make them too good but would not rule out +1T over the extra wound. Give them +2 to hit leave +3 to wound. There equipment is also pretty easy the new armour gives a bonus to movement and a +2save maybe with a cannot be worse than +5 save rule, the new bolters have a longer range and assault 2 with a rend of -1.
Leave it to stand in till you can smell the cheese then slap an UM symbol on it and we're good to go.
krazynadechukr wrote: I stand corrected. My local Gw manager (who told me about a new thunder hawk, overlords, and death watch before public knowledge) said the new marines are RGs new breed. Old marines are still valid and these will have new stats. They're between custodes and current marines in the line up of things....
So exactly what the original rumour from one of the most reliable guys (which was then commented on without correction by THE most reliable rumourmongers) said?
Who knew?
Not me!
For those of us who are unaware of the "original rumor" and who this "most reliable" source is, enlighten us.
I'm actually glad I was unaware of it. I thought these fluff theories were just people's theories to justify Gw going to true scale. Glad I got another source, from GW, that mirrors this "original " rumor!
Always good to have multiple sources say the same thing.
Can't wait to get back into 40k!
Can we please add "no commenting in a thread unless you've at least read the OP" to "the rules" please?
Seriously, it's all there, every bit of it.
I read the op. Is that it? Is that the infallible unquestionable source and rumor?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and Sad Panda.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Probably worth mentioning Hastings made his comments on Lady Atia's blog too, so it's kind of a triple lock as I'm sure Atia would have said something if Hastings was too far off the mark.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But that's already in the OP, so you knew that.
Huh. So, what if it's literally as simple as implanting the organs in a newborn and letting them grow together? Like, none of this ritualistic selection crap, just Marine-from-birth and that much bigger for it…
Oh, by the Emperor, so it is true...
Why on Earth did GW think that the Space Marines, the wonderful soldiers made by a (almost) living god, the best soldiers in the galaxy, were not enough and 40k needed super super soldiers ?
That is stupid, even in the fluff...
Fabius had 10k years to do it, it was HIS thing and never truly managed to do it,.
And now we have, them, better than the Emperor's work.
I'm hoping they'll be like Adeptus Custodes in how they work, but for every chapter a small cadre? They showed Space Wolves, so maybe they'll be sending these guys out to bolster as many chapters as possible.
godardc wrote: Oh, by the Emperor, so it is true...
Why on Earth did GW think that the Space Marines, the wonderful soldiers made by a (almost) living god, the best soldiers in the galaxy, were not enough and 40k needed super super soldiers ?
That is stupid, even in the fluff...
Fabius had 10k years to do it, it was HIS thing and never truly managed to do it,.
And now we have, them, better than the Emperor's work.
Well, Thunder Warriors were the first attempt, and Marines were the next step (or maybe an offshoot of the Primarch or Custodes development,) so there's fairly clear evidence that it was an ongoing process rather than a finished idea.
It is distinctly possible that the Emperor has had this idea in his head for 10k years, but the Heresy and Webway project all took priority, then he became a professional vegetable.
With RG's return, he had someone he trusted to carry on, and explained the process to him during their meeting.
godardc wrote: Oh, by the Emperor, so it is true...
Why on Earth did GW think that the Space Marines, the wonderful soldiers made by a (almost) living god, the best soldiers in the galaxy, were not enough and 40k needed super super soldiers ?
That is stupid, even in the fluff...
Fabius had 10k years to do it, it was HIS thing and never truly managed to do it,.
And now we have, them, better than the Emperor's work.
My feelings as well. Turning things up to 11 just to be x-treme!
Space marines were already over the top, What do nu-marines bring to the table that’s not already covered thematically by marine veterans? I felt the same way about Cent suits when they came out. The whole thing is unnecessary, with the exception of giving us a new thing to buy.
Which is, of course, why they do this to us every edition. They’ve already got models out for all the core marine things, so they need to invent new stuff from scratch.
Fabius, the Raven Guard...
Noone never succeeded. In 10 thousand years. Even before the Heresy, when they tried to do Space Marines faster (is this still part of the fluff, it is quite old now) they had flaws
But yes, curious to know how they will explain this.
Standing on the shoulders of giants is how progress is made. Cawl didn't invent this from the ground up. He just improved a bit based on the work The Emperor had done.
So, who's gonna be using derpy mini marines with their sub par rules rather than numarines? No proxies? No 8th ed version of my old army? Just alwaysbeentoosmall marines?
godardc wrote: Fabius, the Raven Guard...
Noone never succeeded. In 10 thousand years. Even before the Heresy, when they tried to do Space Marines faster (is this still part of the fluff, it is quite old now) they had flaws
But yes, curious to know how they will explain this.
Fabius is looking to cure himself, and the Alpha Legion fiddled around with the RG.
Bit of a hint that the new geneseed might help cure Chapters of their hindrances, like the curse of the Wulfen or the Black rage? Or just a line to say "it's OK you all get new toys simmer down"?
JohnnyHell wrote: Bit of a hint that the new geneseed might help cure Chapters of their hindrances, like the curse of the Wulfen or the Black rage? Or just a line to say "it's OK you all get new toys simmer down"?
So would this mean all chapters lose all their special traits. That all SM have the exact same rules, you just paint and model them differently?
I'd love to a fly on the wall when these NuMarines(indomitus Marines?) roll up at a chapter's fortress monastery unannounced wearing there colours. Especially if its the Wolves or Dark angelss Of course the inclusion of the Space wolves in the trailer does raise questions about the canis helix.
Maybe they're dusting off the recipe for Thunder Warriors? It could be the kind of thing they do out of desperation that ends up being a terrible mistake in the end.
godardc wrote: Oh, by the Emperor, so it is true...
Why on Earth did GW think that the Space Marines, the wonderful soldiers made by a (almost) living god, the best soldiers in the galaxy, were not enough and 40k needed super super soldiers ?
That is stupid, even in the fluff...
Fabius had 10k years to do it, it was HIS thing and never truly managed to do it,.
And now we have, them, better than the Emperor's work.
It's utterly absurd. Games Workshop have been making great buisness and community-related decisions since the new change in management, but something like this suggests they really don't understand (or just don't care) about their own setting anymore. Bringing Roboute back was bad enough but this is even worse. The whole point of W40K and the Imperium is that things are bad and aren't really going to get any better, the Imperium fighting a losing battle but still deseperately holding on and acts of heroism by ordinary people (even Space Marines) turning the tide against all odds and the Imperium pressing on despite looses was the entire point of them. There was no hope, and there should not have been any because that is not what the W40K setting is about. Those Space Marine chapters and the Imperium as a whole are fighting a losing battle but won't give up, that was a core theme of the setting. To Suddenly have Super Superhuman soldiers appear out of nowhere to solve everything, fix all the problems and give hope in a hopeless setting just come across as not understanding what it's supposed to be about, or not caring enough to keep that theme.
It's taking away both the biggest downside to the Imperium and their biggest positive aspect; the refusal to accept defeat and how they'd just keep going. It's like they want to change the Imperium from the Dark, depressing place it is supposed to be to "These are the good guys now, we can't have them losing". The Imperium having hope to this degree not a good thing in the slightest.
JohnnyHell wrote: Bit of a hint that the new geneseed might help cure Chapters of their hindrances, like the curse of the Wulfen or the Black rage? Or just a line to say "it's OK you all get new toys simmer down"?
Rebirth and Reinforcements probably means that the new marines are being bred with the geneseed stored in the banks on Mars given as tithe from the SM. Even completely destroyed chapters can be rebuild this way if enough gene material is present and I guess big G is giving helping some way.
Mentlegen324 wrote: The whole point of W40K and the Imperium is that things are bad and aren't really going to get any better, the Imperium fighting a losing battle but still deseperately holding on and acts of heroism by ordinary people (even Space Marines) turning the tide against all odds and the Imperium pressing on despite looses was the entire point of them. There was no hope, and there should not have been any because that is not what the W40K setting is about. Those Space Marine chapters and the Imperium as a whole are fighting a losing battle but won't give up, that was a core theme of the setting.
godardc wrote: Oh, by the Emperor, so it is true...
Why on Earth did GW think that the Space Marines, the wonderful soldiers made by a (almost) living god, the best soldiers in the galaxy, were not enough and 40k needed super super soldiers ?
That is stupid, even in the fluff...
Fabius had 10k years to do it, it was HIS thing and never truly managed to do it,.
And now we have, them, better than the Emperor's work.
My feelings as well. Turning things up to 11 just to be x-treme!
Space marines were already over the top, What do nu-marines bring to the table that’s not already covered thematically by marine veterans? I felt the same way about Cent suits when they came out. The whole thing is unnecessary, with the exception of giving us a new thing to buy.
Which is, of course, why they do this to us every edition. They’ve already got models out for all the core marine things, so they need to invent new stuff from scratch.
Yeah but in this case the new thing to buy is not a new unit but a new army for the most popular faction in the game.
Yeah I really hope this bites them in the ass as bad as the AoS launch as it's the most blatant money grab I have seen even from GW let alone other games company's.
I have credit from rule book refunds which is now going on 30k stuff rather than the new 40k stuff.
Ssgt Carl wrote: Perhaps all this talk of "hope" is just part of the futility. After all, hope is the first stepon the road to disappointment.
GW probably realizes their most successful storyline was the great crusade and horus heresy. Look at FW, they're able to make like 300 different versions of basically the same two models (tactical marines and contemptor dreadnoughts) and people buy them like crazy.
godardc wrote: Oh, by the Emperor, so it is true...
Why on Earth did GW think that the Space Marines, the wonderful soldiers made by a (almost) living god, the best soldiers in the galaxy, were not enough and 40k needed super super soldiers ?
That is stupid, even in the fluff...
Fabius had 10k years to do it, it was HIS thing and never truly managed to do it,.
And now we have, them, better than the Emperor's work.
Well, Thunder Warriors were the first attempt, and Marines were the next step (or maybe an offshoot of the Primarch or Custodes development,) so there's fairly clear evidence that it was an ongoing process rather than a finished idea.
It is distinctly possible that the Emperor has had this idea in his head for 10k years, but the Heresy and Webway project all took priority, then he became a professional vegetable.
With RG's return, he had someone he trusted to carry on, and explained the process to him during their meeting.
I agree, it seems pretty in-line with the fluff to me. I'd really like it if the nu-marines were actually veteran space marines who got an upgrade rather than fresh recruits. This would also provide a convenient way to maintain the flaws/quirks of certain chapters' gene seed (SW, BA, etc).
godardc wrote: Oh, by the Emperor, so it is true...
Why on Earth did GW think that the Space Marines, the wonderful soldiers made by a (almost) living god, the best soldiers in the galaxy, were not enough and 40k needed super super soldiers ?
That is stupid, even in the fluff...
Fabius had 10k years to do it, it was HIS thing and never truly managed to do it,.
And now we have, them, better than the Emperor's work.
My feelings as well. Turning things up to 11 just to be x-treme!
Space marines were already over the top, What do nu-marines bring to the table that’s not already covered thematically by marine veterans? I felt the same way about Cent suits when they came out. The whole thing is unnecessary, with the exception of giving us a new thing to buy.
Which is, of course, why they do this to us every edition. They’ve already got models out for all the core marine things, so they need to invent new stuff from scratch.
Yeah but in this case the new thing to buy is not a new unit but a new army for the most popular faction in the game.
Yeah I really hope this bites them in the ass as bad as the AoS launch as it's the most blatant money grab I have seen even from GW let alone other games company's.
I have credit from rule book refunds which is now going on 30k stuff rather than the new 40k stuff.
What i find the most disappointing about this is that they're trying to pass it off as a positive thing. All this talk of "We're the new games workshop!" and then to do this, both from a lore and a business standpoint, comes across as a bit of a slap in the face. Not quite to the same degree as Age of Sigmar throwing out all the WHF lore, but it's along the same sort of lines.
This is just a first impression obviously, maybe it'll all go wrong and turn out badly, but i don't really see that happening when they're being released to make more money from people buying a new faction that's also a better version of what they already have.
GoatboyBeta wrote: I'd love to a fly on the wall when these NuMarines(indomitus Marines?) roll up at a chapter's fortress monastery unannounced wearing there colours. Especially if its the Wolves or Dark angelss Of course the inclusion of the Space wolves in the trailer does raise questions about the canis helix.
My thoughts exactly, RG will unilaterally declare his NuMarines the solution to other chapters problems who will refuse it because they have loyalty to their own primarchs. This is just going to build tensions so you can justify marines killing marines again is my guess. I mean we have the old chapters ALL cut off by the warp, check, now one dictator and hypocrite of a primarch with massive hubris returns and declares he can cure them all.... Yea, like this will go over well.
People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes. And I don't say this to White Knight GW, because I think too this is a obvious mone grab movement and a kick in the balls to the tone of the setting. But what whe wish, and what it is, are very different things in the world.
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
godardc wrote: Oh, by the Emperor, so it is true...
Why on Earth did GW think that the Space Marines, the wonderful soldiers made by a (almost) living god, the best soldiers in the galaxy, were not enough and 40k needed super super soldiers ?
That is stupid, even in the fluff...
Fabius had 10k years to do it, it was HIS thing and never truly managed to do it,.
And now we have, them, better than the Emperor's work.
It's utterly absurd. Games Workshop have been making great buisness and community-related decisions since the new change in management, but something like this suggests they really don't understand (or just don't care) about their own setting anymore. Bringing Roboute back was bad enough but this is even worse. The whole point of W40K and the Imperium is that things are bad and aren't really going to get any better, the Imperium fighting a losing battle but still deseperately holding on and acts of heroism by ordinary people (even Space Marines) turning the tide against all odds and the Imperium pressing on despite looses was the entire point of them. There was no hope, and there should not have been any because that is not what the W40K setting is about. Those Space Marine chapters and the Imperium as a whole are fighting a losing battle but won't give up, that was a core theme of the setting. To Suddenly have Super Superhuman soldiers appear out of nowhere to solve everything, fix all the problems and give hope in a hopeless setting just come across as not understanding what it's supposed to be about, or not caring enough to keep that theme.
It's taking away both the biggest downside to the Imperium and their biggest positive aspect; the refusal to accept defeat and how they'd just keep going. It's like they want to change the Imperium from the Dark, depressing place it is supposed to be to "These are the good guys now, we can't have them losing". The Imperium having hope to this degree not a good thing in the slightest.
Well you're painting quite a noble picture of the Imperium of Mankind. The themes for 40k is also that the Emperor created a golden age for humanity and after the Heresy humanity began doing the exact opposite of what the Emperor wanted, including deifying him and becoming an intolerant, extremist culture, while also having dozens of factions infighting and allowing planets to be ruled by warlords, dictators and worse, so long as they swear allegiance to the Emperor and pay their tithes.
So yeah there is the theme of humanity being beset on all sides by overwhelming odds and standing up in a hopeless predicament, but I think it's a stretch to call that the main theme of 40k, because there are lots of themes in 40k and you deciding which theme resonates with you as a fan doesn't make it the biggest or most important.
Also, there's almost certainly no chance Guilliman will "fix everything" but it does add a new and interesting dynamic, while still keeping the fact that even with Nu marines they are fighting a losing battle.
The 40k setting has changed many, many times over its history. I feel like the people around long enough that remember either accept the changes as part of the ongoing changes to a setting that started as something very different from what it is now, or they cling to the idea that 40k as it was when they got into it is somehow the truest, sacrosanct version, despite what came before.
Maybe it's because I've been around 40k for over 20 years, but reading the same stories over and over with each new rule book release gets a little stale. Moving the story forward a little is exciting and offers something new for once.
Besides the fluff and game have always sort of been separate things. You can always just play without the new stuff and keep reading the same story that's existed for 40k for the last few editions, since apparently it can't ever change.
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
*Rolls eyes*
I don't see this as bad. Doing a rehash of the last 30 years isn't good either.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Maybe they're dusting off the recipe for Thunder Warriors? It could be the kind of thing they do out of desperation that ends up being a terrible mistake in the end.
My first thought when I was watching the video - Thunder Warriors 2.0!
"Yeah, we know the previous version was a bit... flawed, but we ran some internal testing and improved the original code. Seriously, MOST of the crucial issues in the bug tracker have been addressed..."
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
*Rolls eyes*
I don't see this as bad. Doing a rehash of the last 30 years isn't good either.
No, we must reread the same story over and over for all time. Each new edition must be the same as the last, with only the edition number changing. This is how you make compelling products that people want to keep buying.
Possible a replacement going forward though.....hmmm.
I guess it depends how many of the super marines they can make compared to the number of regular marines over a given period of time.
Could be they could make enough to completely replace the current marine creation process?
Or maybe they can only make a certain amount, in a similar way that only a relatively small amount of custodes can be created, so they will only ever be a supplement to regular marines?
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
*Rolls eyes*
I don't see this as bad. Doing a rehash of the last 30 years isn't good either.
No, we must reread the same story over and over for all time. Each new edition must be the same as the last, with only the edition number changing. This is how you make compelling products that people want to keep buying.
No but also pissing 30 years of backstory.away in a moment of wardian fanwank is not that great, look at AoS and it's current vapid knock off of Mtg and Planescape.
So...we're getting Space Marines...but Space Marine-ier?
Not a resculpting or slight reimagining of them in truescale, but a second parallel line of BigMarines as an actual fluff thing?
That's...that's really what we're doing now?
So...nevermind that the Space Marines were already supposed to be the "best of the best" by definition, nevermind that the original technology that developed them was done at the hand of the Emperor himself with technologies beyond those which remain available in the 41st millenium, and nevermind that exact same concept has already been done with Ultramarines, Grey Knights, Custodes, etc.... we're really just gonna have big RobuteMarines? Am I correct in my interpretation there?
Because, if that's the case, it sounds downright stupid. The game setting is what makes 40k what it is, the IP is by far the most valuable asset the game has, without the background this game would have ceased to exist long ago, it's crippling gameplay issues and pricing would have driven it from the market, and this sounds a really stupid way to move that background forward.
Hope I'm wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting about these.
Galas wrote: I'm the only one that likes the Tomb-style Dreadnought more than the new Contemptor model?
The Contemptor to me just look... I don't know. I love my boxy box of Fury :(
Same with Terminators vs Centurions.
Agreed on both counts. The only thing I criticise about the conventional dreadnought is its legs are too short. As for, centurions, they're horrific looking.
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
It's just gone from impending doom to rage against the dying of the light.
Ruboute and this Nu-marines are only postponing the inevitable. The age of Fire is coming to his inevitable end, they are just only reigniting the flame for a bit longer.
But to be honest, I don't give the GW narrative team the same quality writing that I can give to the guys after Dark Souls universe Not because they are bad per se, some are, others are genuinely good, but theyr Narrative comes always after the Marketing and Commercial teams, so...
So...nevermind that the Space Marines were already supposed to be the "best of the best" by definition, nevermind that the original technology that developed them was done at the hand of the Emperor himself with technologies beyond those which remain available in the 41st millenium, and nevermind that exact same concept has already been done with Ultramarines, Grey Knights, Custodes, etc.... we're really just gonna have big RobuteMarines? Am I correct in my interpretation there?
Don't forget that the original Legion marines were a lot closer to what they originally were intended to be than the watered down, weak and gene-seed corrupted remnants that are around in 40K.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Maybe they're dusting off the recipe for Thunder Warriors? It could be the kind of thing they do out of desperation that ends up being a terrible mistake in the end.
My first thought when I was watching the video - Thunder Warriors 2.0!
"Yeah, we know the previous version was a bit... flawed, but we ran some internal testing and improved the original code. Seriously, MOST of the crucial issues in the bug tracker have been addressed..."
I would love this and I wouldn't be surprised if GW did something close. They do like to put a sting in the tail of the background of even there seemingly most white hat wearing factions. As much as I hate to bring up the Stormcast in this thread It doesn't take much digging to find references to purges, fanatical devotion and other fun things with those guys.
MajorWesJanson wrote: It's just gone from impending doom to rage against the dying of the light.
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
It goes against your idea of the core theme of the Imperium, and your idea that the setting has no real hope.
I think new bigger super space marines is a borked theme and I'm not confident it will play in GW's favor. I mean from a modeller's perspective I'm sure they will be fantasic but from a gamer's perspective they annoy me a lot.
I would of been on board for Thunder Warriors being beought back to fill the numbers in the Space Marine ranks. They are bigger stronger crazier super soldiers but they are not the same as Space Marines. They would have gone a long way to keep the game grimdark.
Galas wrote: I'm the only one that likes the Tomb-style Dreadnought more than the new Contemptor model?
The Contemptor to me just look... I don't know. I love my boxy box of Fury :(
Same with Terminators vs Centurions.
Agreed on both counts. The only thing I criticise about the conventional dreadnought is its legs are too short. As for, centurions, they're horrific looking.
I like also boxy dreadnoughts, and am not much of a fan of the Contemptors. I do like the Venerable dreads though.
Centurions I think look cool enough, but I'm hoping that Terminators will see more use in this edition.
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
It goes against your idea of the core theme of the Imperium, and your idea that the setting has no real hope.
Hrm, it goes against the core premise of the universe as it has been introduced since the 1980's.
Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook wrote:
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
gigasnail wrote: Everyone is deluding themselves if they think these won't sell.
They will sell for sure. I think they will cause Chaos to sell less and the other Space Marine range may as well he recalled because I don't see those selling very much once true scale comes out, even if they are using nu marines for old marines causing nu marine models to make true scale nu marines.
Still when the smoke clears I think nu marines will be considered the flaw to 8th.
gigasnail wrote: Everyone is deluding themselves if they think these won't sell.
They will sell for sure. I think they will cause Chaos to sell less and the other Space Marine range may as well he recalled because I don't see those selling very much once true scale comes out, even if they are using nu marines for old marines causing nu marine models to make true scale nu marines.
Still when the smoke clears I think nu marines will be considered the flaw to 8th.
Why would they need to? The video says the new guys will be shipped out to the other chapters. Whatever you play with, in universe your playing with numarines.
gigasnail wrote: Everyone is deluding themselves if they think these won't sell.
They will sell for sure. I think they will cause Chaos to sell less and the other Space Marine range may as well he recalled because I don't see those selling very much once true scale comes out, even if they are using nu marines for old marines causing nu marine models to make true scale nu marines.
Still when the smoke clears I think nu marines will be considered the flaw to 8th.
This is my feeling. With respect to the rules we've seen thus far, it appears to be a great advance over 7E. But this hamfisted NuMarines fluff really just sounds like a steaming pile for the background setting.
gigasnail wrote: Everyone is deluding themselves if they think these won't sell.
They will sell for sure. I think they will cause Chaos to sell less and the other Space Marine range may as well he recalled because I don't see those selling very much once true scale comes out, even if they are using nu marines for old marines causing nu marine models to make true scale nu marines.
Still when the smoke clears I think nu marines will be considered the flaw to 8th.
This is my feeling. With respect to the rules we've seen thus far, it appears to be a great advance over 7E. But this hamfisted NuMarines fluff really just sounds like a steaming pile for the background setting.
I don't get how making a better version of a gun craps on the setting? I mean...nobody cried they were destroying the grimdark when the first suped up land raider variant came out did they? Or the leman russes with fancier guns? people hated grav but that was more a tabletop thing than anything to do with the fluff of them.
They took a weapon they had and made a better version of it. That's military 101 and I don't get why it's a problem.
Just a re-scale without a note in the fluff would've basically soft-invalidated all existing Space Marines (and Chaos Marines) as being inexplicably a head short.
This way, everyone's existing collection is still perfectly fine. Add Nu-Marines at your own pleasure (or don't).
gigasnail wrote: Everyone is deluding themselves if they think these won't sell.
They will sell for sure. I think they will cause Chaos to sell less and the other Space Marine range may as well he recalled because I don't see those selling very much once true scale comes out, even if they are using nu marines for old marines causing nu marine models to make true scale nu marines.
Still when the smoke clears I think nu marines will be considered the flaw to 8th.
This is my feeling. With respect to the rules we've seen thus far, it appears to be a great advance over 7E. But this hamfisted NuMarines fluff really just sounds like a steaming pile for the background setting.
I don't get how making a better version of a gun craps on the setting? I mean...nobody cried they were destroying the grimdark when the first suped up land raider variant came out did they? Or the leman russes with fancier guns? people hated grav but that was more a tabletop thing than anything to do with the fluff of them.
Most of these were retcons, stuff that had ostensibly been there the whole time but just weren't portrayed for whatever reason, not an *advancement*. A huge part of the theme is that technological advancement is essentially dead and holds no promise of salvation against the coming darkness, it's a pretty core tenet of the intro in every edition of the 40k rulebook. And yes, some of these things did cause some fluff kerfluffles, particularly things like Centurions.
And, more to the point, it really just feels both unnecessary and a clumsily hamfisted way of introducing a new kit line. Just make the new big marine kits and sell them as "cooler models". that sells just fine. Dark Eldar didn't need a fluff revamp for their entire line getting reworked from the ground up.
The Space Marines were a joke, the irony at the heart of the 40K universe. "Best of the best"? They were all variably flawed. Some mutated, some rebelled, some are pious, some are treacherous... even the devout are a pale shadow of what they were intended to be, becoming warrior monks repeating patterns learnt by rote and eschewing all progress.
Anyone who can't see that the Marines are this, their noblest and most heroic moments notwithstanding, is not really grasping the full scope of the core of 40K lore.
JohnnyHell wrote: The Space Marines were a joke, the irony at the heart of the 40K universe. "Best of the best"? They were all variably flawed. Some mutated, some rebelled, some are pious, some are treacherous... even the devout are a pale shadow of what they were intended to be, becoming warrior monks repeating patterns learnt by rote and eschewing all progress.
Anyone who can't see that the Marines are this, their noblest and most heroic moments notwithstanding, is not really grasping the full scope of the core of 40K lore.
Wasn't Rick Prestley the one that said in a interview that 40k as a setting was totally ironic in itshelf? That the Imperium and the Space Marines specially where a parody of themselves, but that people has forgotten that to take them seriously? And not only the fans, the own GW has did that. You can see it, pushing the "The Space Marines are the good guys" when they where the Iron Fist of a opresive goverment that followed the twisted teachings of a rotten corpse.
Can we stop slapping out the term truescale as if it's meant to mean anything here? As has been covered plenty of times, marines are correctly scaled to more factions than they aren't, with plastic cadians being the biggest cause of abberation.
Do marines have wonky proportions with bigger heads and stubbier limbs than is realistic? Yes, but so do pretty much all humans and humanoids citadel put out.
These guys aren't even much taller, we've seen comparisons put together showing they're very slightly taller once you straighten out the legs from the squatting pose tactical marines stand in at rest.
JohnnyHell wrote: The Space Marines were a joke, the irony at the heart of the 40K universe. "Best of the best"? They were all variably flawed. Some mutated, some rebelled, some are pious, some are treacherous... even the devout are a pale shadow of what they were intended to be, becoming warrior monks repeating patterns learnt by rote and eschewing all progress.
Anyone who can't see that the Marines are this, their noblest and most heroic moments notwithstanding, is not really grasping the full scope of the core of 40K lore.
Wasn't Rick Prestley the one that said in a interview that 40k as a setting was totally ironic in itshelf? That the Imperium and the Space Marines specially where a parody of themselves, but that people has forgotten that to take them seriously? And not only the fans, the own GW has did that. You can see it, pushing the "The Space Marines are the good guys" when they where the Iron Fist of a opresive goverment that followed the twisted teachings of a rotten corpse.
Yep. It was designed that way. And this new Crusade is no different. They believe themselves to be righteous, so set out to commit atrocity after atrocity.
changemod wrote: Can we stop slapping out the term truescale as if it's meant to mean anything here? As has been covered plenty of times, marines are correctly scaled to more factions than they aren't, with plastic cadians being the biggest cause of abberation.
Do marines have wonky proportions with bigger heads and stubbier limbs than is realistic? Yes, but so do pretty much all humans and humanoids citadel put out.
These guys aren't even much taller, we've seen comparisons put together showing they're very slightly taller once you straighten out the legs from the squatting pose tactical marines stand in at rest.
Agreed. It's getting fething annoying.
Apparently everyone thinks SM should all be Robert Wadlow...
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
*Rolls eyes*
I don't see this as bad. Doing a rehash of the last 30 years isn't good either.
No, we must reread the same story over and over for all time. Each new edition must be the same as the last, with only the edition number changing. This is how you make compelling products that people want to keep buying.
No but also pissing 30 years of backstory.away in a moment of wardian fanwank is not that great, look at AoS and it's current vapid knock off of Mtg and Planescape.
Which part of the 30 years of backstory? That story has changed numerous times, as I already stated. So which is the correct version? When you got into the game, or some later or prior point? Just curious what is the "official" version according to you that is getting pissed on.
In art proportions are usually measured in heads, and GW uses comparative measurement(ish) across the range. The average mini is about 32mm and the heads 5mm so thats about 6 heads high, meaning 1 head = 1 ft. Space marines are about 7 ft tall so should be a head taller than a guardsman.
If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
*Rolls eyes*
I don't see this as bad. Doing a rehash of the last 30 years isn't good either.
No, we must reread the same story over and over for all time. Each new edition must be the same as the last, with only the edition number changing. This is how you make compelling products that people want to keep buying.
No but also pissing 30 years of backstory.away in a moment of wardian fanwank is not that great, look at AoS and it's current vapid knock off of Mtg and Planescape.
Which part of the 30 years of backstory? That story has changed numerous times, as I already stated. So which is the correct version? When you got into the game, or some later or prior point? Just curious what is the "official" version according to you that is getting pissed on.
Additionally, nothing has been retconned, neither GW nor anyone else posting is claiming RG has always been awake and this is how it's always been, the backstory is just fine, it all happened just as it was presented, now things are moving forward.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
Indeed, it's been a conga line of "oh, these things were always here!" or "guess what just got dug up- Space Marines inside of Space Marines!" for the last few years. Even GW had to realize that excuse was getting old.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
For serious, your aware that its not new power armor right? Nobody would care if it was new power armor. They are literally new bigger stronger faster tougher space marines. They also exist at the same time as the current space marines, its not a retcon bigger space marine, its an entirely new better space marine.
And given the Imperium is getting battered like a red headed step child at this moment in time, it's clear that your run of the mill Astartes ain't gonna cut it against Chaos and the many Xenos races out to stomp humanity.
When I saw the first leaked image, I knew this was the direction GW was going in. GW has never been in the business of outright invalidating things...heck, look at the 2nd priest with a plasma gun who has retained rules since he was first released! *However*, that doesn't mean GW will go away from supporting a previous product...
Stormcasts became marines in fantasy because marines sell tremendously well, but since their release Stormcasts have had something over their marines counterparts: they're bigger than anything else in the game! Space Marines- in their art presentation- are identical to Stormcasts in size and scale, but that isn't reflected well by the models. GW has decided to match them up in favor of the art representation, and so they're making them bigger. But GW won't risk alienating their customers by simply up'ing the size of the standard marines, so instead they'll just stop supporting existing marine with new releases (which I expect to peter out by next year).
As for the other armies, Chaos marines can easily be resized because Chaos, and the other armies will stay as they are so that Marines can be the biggest and baddest mothers in the game.
From a business perspective, it makes pretty good sense for GW to go this route. People will buy these new guys, and complaints will be responded with the usual chorus of "you don't have to buy them!" Really, one of GW's greatest commodities is the loyalty of many of their customers.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
This has nothing to do with the Armour or equipment. This isn't a retcon where it's you're supposed to just pretend it was like it the whole time. If this was something like "Hey, we found a new STC template and managed to slightly improve Space Marine armour, here's a new Marine kit!" that would have been fine, albiet it might have invalidated peoples current armies, although not really if you consider things like Necrons and Dark Eldar got an entire revamp. It's that this is having what seems to have massive amounts of entirely new ultra-space marines with equipment superior to the rest appear out of almost nowhere to (at least what's suggested) solve all the problems the Imperium faces and save them that's the problem, with it being forced into the setting in a way that removes one of the core themes of there seeming to be no real hope.
angelofvengeance wrote: And given the Imperium is getting battered like a red headed step child at this moment in time, it's clear that your run of the mill Astartes ain't gonna cut it against Chaos and the many Xenos races out to stomp humanity.
Which made space marines heroic as they battled unending horrors in a shrinking mankind with no hope for salvation. Now they are just extras.
May as well rebox as nu stormtroopers in the increasing irrelvant astra militarium.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
Azreal13 wrote: Except it isn't being forced into the setting, the setting is being altered and they're part of that.
"Forced into the setting" as in, were not something that was hinted at in the past, just suddenly appeared out of almost nowhere and have been done in a way that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
This has nothing to do with the Armour or equipment. This isn't a retcon where it's you're supposed to just pretend it was like it the whole time. If this was something like "Hey, we found a new STC template and managed to slightly improve Space Marine armour, here's a new Marine kit!" that would have been fine, albiet it might have invalidated peoples current armies, although not really if you consider things like Necrons and Dark Eldar got an entire revamp. It's that this is having what seems to have massive amounts of entirely new ultra-space marines with equipment superior to the rest appear out of almost nowhere to (at least what's suggested) solve all the problems the Imperium faces and save them that's the problem, with it being forced into the setting in a way that removes one of the core themes of there seeming to be no real hope.
I'd argue that retconning is directly 'forcing into the setting', far more than introducing new things in an ongoing story. And that they're not vastly different. But each to their own.
Also <SPOILERS> I think we all know they won't solve anything, just prolong the endless war.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
People have complained about fluff issues with these other things before. There's plenty of threads and teeth gnashing on these topics, they were just played out years ago and, ultimately, retcons of things that mostly were just weapon swaps on vehicles are a bit easier to deal with than "new Marines...but Better!". Stuff like the Stormraven and Centurions certain created lots of fluff butthurt however.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
At the risk of sounding patronising, unless you're just being incredibly obtuse...
A retcon (short for RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY) is where these things have always been there, just off camera, or not mentioned for whatever reason and then they finally are. Those are the things like the aforementioned Land Raider Redeemer and Centurions.
These Numarines have not been part of SM armies before, its established that they do not even exist until RG brings them into the galaxy. This is NOT a retcon. This is an advancement of the storyline.
angelofvengeance wrote: And given the Imperium is getting battered like a red headed step child at this moment in time, it's clear that your run of the mill Astartes ain't gonna cut it against Chaos and the many Xenos races out to stomp humanity.
Which made space marines heroic as they battled unending horrors in a shrinking mankind with no hope for salvation. Now they are just extras.
May as well rebox as nu stormtroopers in the increasing irrelvant astra militarium.
Space Marines where never heroic. Only a small group of them like the Salamanders and the Space Wolves in some cases where truly heroic. They were just out there, killing stuff that try to kill humans, so their lords can kill humans without distractions.
The Interex and many other human Empires were killed by Space Marines in the Great Crusade because they didn't want to be part of the Imperium. This was never about human survival. It was about doing a genocide to all the universe and make it think as the Emperor wanted. They have failed at that. They are gonna retry it again with the new marines of Guilliman.
If you see this as eliminating the Grimdark of the universe, then the problem is that you have lost the true vision of how the universe was built.
If tomorrow the Tyranids bring to the galaxy a new generation of Tyranid beast and warriors, no one will say anything about that invalidating the current Tyranid tendrils of the Hive-Fleet.
Yep. It was designed that way. And this new Crusade is no different. They believe themselves to be righteous, so set out to commit atrocity after atrocity.
Yeah at there very best and noblest the Imperium are not so much the "good guys" as the "not as bad guys". Servitors anybody? There all over the Imperium doing all sorts of tasks and they are totally horrific.
Warhams-77 wrote: Now I hope they will bring out some new, accompanying tanks
And flyers ...
Thundereagles?
If this will turn out to be just an infantry kit (or three) ... :( *Sad Panda*
A new Land raider kit would be welcome. Its a cool design but the kit is a real pain in the bum. Still I'm really interested to see how much cross over these guys have with the armoury of the existing Astartes and if it will go both ways.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
At the risk of sounding patronising, unless you're just being incredibly obtuse...
A retcon (short for RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY) is where these things have always been there, just off camera, or not mentioned for whatever reason and then they finally are. Those are the things like the aforementioned Land Raider Redeemer and Centurions.
These Numarines have not been part of SM armies before, its established that they do not even exist until RG brings them into the galaxy. This is NOT a retcon. This is an advancement of the storyline.
Got it?
As an intelligent human, I was aware of all of that, but thanks for the Wikipedia impression. I also wrote that they're an advancement. Tell me - how do they materially differ from the last new Marine power toy? They for Marines, they're stronger. Try grasping my point before assailing it, ta.
Kanluwen wrote: Wonder if this is why the Scythes of the Emperor have been getting so much fluff love from Black Library of late.
I dunno but I did just interview Laurie Friday night about the Scythes as a package (audio, novel, 7 shorts) and I don't get the impression it's anything more than attention on a great opportunity for a chapter's fluff. But who knows...
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
For serious, your aware that its not new power armor right? Nobody would care if it was new power armor. They are literally new bigger stronger faster tougher space marines. They also exist at the same time as the current space marines, its not a retcon bigger space marine, its an entirely new better space marine.
except we dunno if thats true or not, for all we know these guys are just spacemarines in new power armor, and the break through is just "we've managed to recreate the more efficant marine creation process of the Heresy, now that Gulliman's told us how!"
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
Yeah
Or maybe just maybe those other things we're mostly irrelevant compared to the introduction of a whole new faction inteded to replace GW's most iconic and best selling line [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius].
Ultimately this has nothing to do with fluff but I would guess marine sales have started to stall and GW saw the whole tru scale bollocks and stormcast sales and did some simple math.
GW predict any people lost will be outweighed by new players and people replacing whole armies of marines so I guess even New GW thinks people's main hobby is buying stuff.
I said this in the thread in 40k general discussion. It would not be cost effective to either GW or the fanbase to just make the marines bigger. I like the idea of a unit for marines that is more powerful and bigger than normal marines, but I wish it was more than just hey these are bigger marines
It does feel a bit cheap that all the old Space Marines we know and love are now essentially outmoded and have had their position taken.
Grey Knights did similar, and when Custodes essentially dwarfed them it was the same.
TheLumberJack wrote: I like the idea of a unit for marines that is more powerful and bigger than normal marines, but I wish it was more than just hey these are bigger marines
I mean, Centurions, Terminators, Grey Knights, Custodes, etc don't already fit that niche...?
Melissia wrote: Oh it is more. It's also "they're made by Roboute so they're perfect and he's better than the Emperor why don't you like him yet?", too.
Wow that sounds horrible. I'm glad we aren't stuck with whichever game you're referencing here! The thread is about Warhammer 40k though, so best to stick what is going on with that.
TheLumberJack wrote: I like the idea of a unit for marines that is more powerful and bigger than normal marines, but I wish it was more than just hey these are bigger marines
I mean, Centurions, Terminators, Grey Knights, Custodes, etc don't already fit that niche...?
I fully expect these guys to take the place of the existing marines in the next year or so. Rules for the current Marines will remain to represent veterans or hold-outs, but releases will turn towards making these guys the standard for marine size in the future. That way, they'll line up much more so with their Stormcast counterparts in AoS.
Melissia wrote: Oh it is more. It's also "they're made by Roboute so they're perfect and he's better than the Emperor why don't you like him yet?", too.
Assuming he has had much of a role in their creation. Could just be the fruits of whatever Cawl was working on and Rob's just given him the green light...
That is to say we don't yet know if they are made from his gene seed or not.
As for improving on the Emperor's work, well he wasn't exactly infallible! He made the Thunder Warriors, and binned them, he made the Marines from the Primarch's, then made the Grey Knights once their flaws became apparent, it being possible to make a new type of Marine isn't a mind boggling jump. Maybe it'll even be a plan of his he didn't have time to pull the trigger on before he got stuck on the Throne...
The worst thing I see with all of this is the power-creep in-universe scaling even more.
A day will come where 40k will turn into a Shonen like Naruto or DragonBall, where everyone keep gettin more and more powerfull until the point it becomes absurd.
Oh God please no. Why GW? Every time wheit seems like you've reached the bottom and the only way is up, every time when you seem to be getting your together and start to redeem yourself you somehow manage to fing a new low with even more moronic decisions and complete disregard for any common sense, logic or reason. We had space marines, best of mankind, genetically engineered to endure and prevail even the worst the galaxy has to offer. We had deathwatch, who are basically space marines special forces. We had grey knights who literally began with 12 of the best people in the whole imperium personally selected by Malcador. We had custodians who are pretty much hand-crafted - elite among elite.
You think that's enough elite dudes for essentially one faction? NAH, HERE ARE SOME MEGA-SUPER-DUPER-ELITE SPACE MARENIS FOR YA CUZ WE R LAZY AND WE CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO MAKE SOMETHING ORIGINAL AND INTERESTING. At this point I'm just waiting for those 40$ dise shakers to pop up any minute now.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
For serious, your aware that its not new power armor right? Nobody would care if it was new power armor. They are literally new bigger stronger faster tougher space marines. They also exist at the same time as the current space marines, its not a retcon bigger space marine, its an entirely new better space marine.
except we dunno if thats true or not, for all we know these guys are just spacemarines in new power armor, and the break through is just "we've managed to recreate the more efficant marine creation process of the Heresy, now that Gulliman's told us how!"
No, the trailer outright tells us this isn't just more Space Marines in new power armour. It says "geneforged beyond the capabilities of their bretheren, armed and equiped with weapons befiting their stature as the truest heirs of the Primarch's legacies". They're Super Spacemarines. They're better in every way, and based off the trailer, there will be a lot of them.
I'm here wainting for the Civil War leaded by Space Wolves that don't want to be replaced as useless weapons by this new breed of space marines. Please GW
Reading this thread almost makes me think I'm the only one excited by this. If space marines get considerably taller and more powerful in game, then they'll finally start to reflect the way that the fluff portrays them. About time!
Also, current space marine minis are awful. They look like they were designed by aliens who had only read vague descriptions of what human bodies look like.
I hope, over the next few years, all space marine ranges get replaced with new, bigger and better miniatures.
Mark the date, today is when you realized that Roboute Guilliman putting on a leather jacket and jumping over a shark pool wasn't actually cool.
When you have a brand, one of the most important rules is that you don't water down the brand. Lets take James Bond. It is well estabilished that double-oh agents are Her Majesty's finest operatives, and James Bond is the most legendary of them all. Now imagine that MGM expands the franchise with triple-oh agents who are even more skilled and special, and best of them is 0001 Mary Sue who is stronger, smarter, suavier and just generally superior to James Bond every way. And the studio explains "oh, you can still enjoy James Bond movies, they are not going anywhere, we are just expanding the brand with something even better".
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
For serious, your aware that its not new power armor right? Nobody would care if it was new power armor. They are literally new bigger stronger faster tougher space marines. They also exist at the same time as the current space marines, its not a retcon bigger space marine, its an entirely new better space marine.
except we dunno if thats true or not, for all we know these guys are just spacemarines in new power armor, and the break through is just "we've managed to recreate the more efficant marine creation process of the Heresy, now that Gulliman's told us how!"
No, the trailer outright tells us this isn't just more Space Marines in new power armour. It says "geneforged beyond the capabilities of their bretheren, armed and equiped with weapons befiting their stature as the truest heirs of the Primarch's legacies". They're Super Spacemarines. They're better in every way, and based off the trailer, there will be a lot of them.
We knew that since Hastings post. It's only today that some people now believe that, as it was roundly derided before despite his track record.
It's still not materially different. New, stronger, tougher Marine toys has been a thing regularly. This is the latest iteration of that.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Reading this thread almost makes me think I'm the only one excited by this. If space marines get considerably taller and more powerful in game, then they'll finally start to reflect the way that the fluff portrays them. About time!
Also, current space marine minis are awful. They look like they were designed by aliens who had only read vague descriptions of what human bodies look like.
I hope, over the next few years, all space marine ranges get replaced with new, bigger and better miniatures.
That's not what's happening. We actually have official proof that's not what's happening.
Why do people still think that's what's happening?
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Reading this thread almost makes me think I'm the only one excited by this. If space marines get considerably taller and more powerful in game, then they'll finally start to reflect the way that the fluff portrays them. About time!
Also, current space marine minis are awful. They look like they were designed by aliens who had only read vague descriptions of what human bodies look like.
I hope, over the next few years, all space marine ranges get replaced with new, bigger and better miniatures.
This isn't making it so the Marine kits and rules reflect their in-universe depiction better. This is usurping the current Marines in both Lore and models by making new Super Spacemarines who are just better overall.
Backfire wrote: Mark the date, today is when you realized that Roboute Guilliman putting on a leather jacket and jumping over a shark pool wasn't actually cool.
When you have a brand, one of the most important rules is that you don't water down the brand. Lets take James Bond. It is well estabilished that double-oh agents are Her Majesty's finest operatives, and James Bond is the most legendary of them all. Now imagine that MGM expands the franchise with triple-oh agents who are even more skilled and special, and best of them is 0001 Mary Sue who is stronger, smarter, suavier and just generally superior to James Bond every way. And the studio explains "oh, you can still enjoy James Bond movies, they are not going anywhere, we are just expanding the brand with something even better".
How well would that go over?
Ita not the same thing at all. One is a character being replaced by another character. This is some Space Marines being replaced by other Space Marines. It doesn't water down a brand, it's right on brand. It's more a Doctor Who analogy - the lead regenerates into a familiar-but-different form to refresh the brand for a new audience.
Instead, we're getting SuperMarines who are better than your Marines, your Marines are last year's news, nobody cares about your Marines because we have SuperMarines now who are more Marine than your Marines ever were.
It's the ultimate logical extension of Warhammer 30k lore.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Reading this thread almost makes me think I'm the only one excited by this. If space marines get considerably taller and more powerful in game, then they'll finally start to reflect the way that the fluff portrays them. About time!
Also, current space marine minis are awful. They look like they were designed by aliens who had only read vague descriptions of what human bodies look like.
I hope, over the next few years, all space marine ranges get replaced with new, bigger and better miniatures.
That's not what's happening. We actually have official proof that's not what's happening.
Why do people still think that's what's happening?
Backfire wrote: Mark the date, today is when you realized that Roboute Guilliman putting on a leather jacket and jumping over a shark pool wasn't actually cool.
When you have a brand, one of the most important rules is that you don't water down the brand. Lets take James Bond. It is well estabilished that double-oh agents are Her Majesty's finest operatives, and James Bond is the most legendary of them all. Now imagine that MGM expands the franchise with triple-oh agents who are even more skilled and special, and best of them is 0001 Mary Sue who is stronger, smarter, suavier and just generally superior to James Bond every way. And the studio explains "oh, you can still enjoy James Bond movies, they are not going anywhere, we are just expanding the brand with something even better".
How well would that go over?
Ita not the same thing at all. One is a character being replaced by another character. This is some Space Marines being replaced by other Space Marines. It doesn't water down a brand, it's right on brand. It's more a Doctor Who analogy - the lead regenerates into a familiar-but-different form to refresh the brand for a new audience.
Except the Doctor regenerating doesn't undermine the previous incarnations, make them look inferior and take away from the point of the character and setting in the first place. Previous Space Marines were supposed to be the very best but even they weren't quite good enough to save the Imperium, with a defining trait of the setting being that it's pretty much hopeless and there isn't some magical way that everything will turn out perfectly alright without great loss and sacrifice, or heroism. The introduction of Super Marines who are supposedly better in every way, in large numbers, out of nowhere takes away from that whole idea.
Every 'good' thing the Imperium had had an ancompying downside befitting the setting as a whole. Space Marines? Superhuman warriors who can take on pretty much anything, but they're flawed and there aren't too many of them, with even the larger Chapters facing difficulties but continuing as best they can. Custodes? Even better than Marines 1v1, but there are so very, very few of them and they're too busy guarding Terra. Deathwatch and Grey Knights? The best of the very best, but with such limited numbers and being contronned by specialist organizations, they aren't available that often. This meant the acts of bravery and heroism had to be by the 'ordinary' characters or Space Marines, but with the introduction of these new Marines those downsides are gone.
Backfire wrote: Mark the date, today is when you realized that Roboute Guilliman putting on a leather jacket and jumping over a shark pool wasn't actually cool.
When you have a brand, one of the most important rules is that you don't water down the brand. Lets take James Bond. It is well estabilished that double-oh agents are Her Majesty's finest operatives, and James Bond is the most legendary of them all. Now imagine that MGM expands the franchise with triple-oh agents who are even more skilled and special, and best of them is 0001 Mary Sue who is stronger, smarter, suavier and just generally superior to James Bond every way. And the studio explains "oh, you can still enjoy James Bond movies, they are not going anywhere, we are just expanding the brand with something even better".
How well would that go over?
Its not the same thing at all. One is a character being replaced by another character.
You need to read more carefully - my analogy was not about James Bond being retired, he would still exist in the movies, just being inferior to Agent Sue.
please). It is still morning hours in the US if I'm not mistaken
perfection.
