Imateria wrote: Enough with the fething space marines GW, in the last 2 years we've had all of 2 major none Power Armour releases (Tau and GSC), by October that number goes down to 1.
*checks over my 7th Ed In Memoriam*
Codex: Harlies - 2015
Codex: Skitarii - 2015
Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus - 2015
Codex: Genestealer Cults - 2016
Codex Imperial Agents - 2016 (it has Sisters, but still)
Cult Mechanicus was in May, the others earlier than that. He's right: New tau models and Genecults were the only major 40k releases in the last 2 years not involving marines of some type.
Melissia wrote: Tyranids are way too important to 40k lore to be removed. Necrons are too interesting.
Tyranids are too stupid to exist. Their fluff is a giant "we don't understand biology" sign, their models are ugly, and as a narrative element they're boring as hell.
My only problem with the Tyranid representation is that their fluff is just not threatening enough. There's some notion of a 'Great Devourer' descending upon the galaxy, but it is never really realized, so the threat just kind of falls to the wayside, easily ignored. We're told about the threat constantly, but there's no real representation of the threat itself. They need to have an event (similar to the Gathering Storm event) that had Tyranids overrunning nearby systems, showing the actual threat of the Great Devourer.
I don't think it'll ever happen, but that's I think Tyranids need to refocus on how much of a threat they are.
alleus wrote: I remember when the Blood Angels codex had a Stormraven entry, but there wasn't a Stormraven model for quite some time. I'd much prefer this for the upcoming Primaris releases. People can feel free to convert their own models until they are officially released, but I just don't want three of four more datasheets on top of the codex right away..
They'll never release rules for a unit without releasing a unit again. The whole Chapter House issue cemented that. That's why the Tyranid Spore was renamed. It'll be rules in a box or updates via the yearly Chapter Approved books.
As a completest weirdo, and one who owns nearly every 7th Ed Codex, and definitely all the campaign books, the Indecies might well help me out here.
Sure, I won't have the very latest points etc, but they still serve to give me plenty of info on the foes I'm likely to face, and how I might go about dismantling their army.
So the need for someone like me to buy every Codex is somewhat reduced.
Marshal Loss wrote: World Eaters and Emperor's Children are not going to be separate from the main CSM codex, at least not in the immediate. Only Death Guard and Thousand Sons are listed as separate factions on both the 40k website and in the 40k rulebook. WE and EC would need a full range to justify a codex, and that's not going to happen for now.
The four Chaos books will be Daemons, CSM, DG, TS.
With Angron release approaching that's fairly likely time for WE codex.
Agreed that it's very unlikely that they release a primarch model without a codex.
Melissia wrote: Tyranids are way too important to 40k lore to be removed. Necrons are too interesting.
Tyranids are too stupid to exist. Their fluff is a giant "we don't understand biology" sign, their models are ugly, and as a narrative element they're boring as hell.
My only problem with the Tyranid representation is that their fluff is just not threatening enough. There's some notion of a 'Great Devourer' descending upon the galaxy, but it is never really realized, so the threat just kind of falls to the wayside, easily ignored. We're told about the threat constantly, but there's no real representation of the threat itself. They need to have an event (similar to the Gathering Storm event) that had Tyranids overrunning nearby systems, showing the actual threat of the Great Devourer.
I don't think it'll ever happen, but that's I think Tyranids need to refocus on how much of a threat they are.
No threats were/are ever realized up until this point. The game was stuck at the same point in time for the last ~15+ years, so the Great Devourer was always on the cusp of arriving, just as all Necrons are on the cusp of waking up, and the Orks are on the cusp of reaching critical mass, and the "basically alive" Primarchs are on the cusp of returning, and Chaos is on the cusp of rampaging out of the Warp.
But now those last two have happened so who knows if the rest will be a thing in the next 5 years or so.
Melissia wrote: Tyranids are way too important to 40k lore to be removed. Necrons are too interesting.
Tyranids are too stupid to exist. Their fluff is a giant "we don't understand biology" sign, their models are ugly, and as a narrative element they're boring as hell.
My only problem with the Tyranid representation is that their fluff is just not threatening enough. There's some notion of a 'Great Devourer' descending upon the galaxy, but it is never really realized, so the threat just kind of falls to the wayside, easily ignored. We're told about the threat constantly, but there's no real representation of the threat itself. They need to have an event (similar to the Gathering Storm event) that had Tyranids overrunning nearby systems, showing the actual threat of the Great Devourer.
I don't think it'll ever happen, but that's I think Tyranids need to refocus on how much of a threat they are.
No threats were/are ever realized up until this point. The game was stuck at the same point in time for the last ~15+ years, so the Great Devourer was always on the cusp of arriving, just as all Necrons are on the cusp of waking up, and the Orks are on the cusp of reaching critical mass, and the "basically alive" Primarchs are on the cusp of returning, and Chaos is on the cusp of rampaging out of the Warp.
But now those last two have happened so who knows if the rest will be a thing in the next 5 years or so.
We already know the outcomes of all of those things.
Great Devourer was always on the cusp of being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Necrons are on the cusp of waking up and being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Orks are on the cusp of reaching critical mass then being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Chaos is on the cusp of rampaging out of the Warp and sent back after being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman
Melissia wrote: Tyranids are way too important to 40k lore to be removed. Necrons are too interesting.
Tyranids are too stupid to exist. Their fluff is a giant "we don't understand biology" sign, their models are ugly, and as a narrative element they're boring as hell.
My only problem with the Tyranid representation is that their fluff is just not threatening enough. There's some notion of a 'Great Devourer' descending upon the galaxy, but it is never really realized, so the threat just kind of falls to the wayside, easily ignored. We're told about the threat constantly, but there's no real representation of the threat itself. They need to have an event (similar to the Gathering Storm event) that had Tyranids overrunning nearby systems, showing the actual threat of the Great Devourer.
I don't think it'll ever happen, but that's I think Tyranids need to refocus on how much of a threat they are.
No threats were/are ever realized up until this point. The game was stuck at the same point in time for the last ~15+ years, so the Great Devourer was always on the cusp of arriving, just as all Necrons are on the cusp of waking up, and the Orks are on the cusp of reaching critical mass, and the "basically alive" Primarchs are on the cusp of returning, and Chaos is on the cusp of rampaging out of the Warp.
But now those last two have happened so who knows if the rest will be a thing in the next 5 years or so.
We already know the outcomes of all of those things.
Great Devourer was always on the cusp of being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Necrons are on the cusp of waking up and being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Orks are on the cusp of reaching critical mass then being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Chaos is on the cusp of rampaging out of the Warp and sent back after being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman
You forgot Guilliman is on the cusp of being betrayed and defeated by Cawl when he refuses to sign all of Cawl's requisition forms.
lolman1c wrote: . . .now they have the codex (which has better and more balanced rules) doesn't this give them an advantage? . . .
This statement is self-contradictory.
Cephalobeard wrote:They said FW specific things will still be in the FW books, and they will continue to release their Imperial Armour style collections.
I'll never understand why people expect GW to update Forge World rules. Yes, they are part of the same company, but so are Taco Bell and KFC. Ever walk into a KFC and as for a chalupa? You'll get some funny looks and directions to the nearest Taco Bell.
EnTyme wrote: I'll never understand why people expect GW to update Forge World rules. Yes, they are part of the same company, but so are Taco Bell and KFC. Ever walk into a KFC and as for a chalupa? You'll get some funny looks and directions to the nearest Taco Bell.
Yes, I used to walk into a KFC and order a Crunchwrap Supreme all of the time and never had a problem because it was a KFC/Taco Bell location...
Melissia wrote: Tyranids are way too important to 40k lore to be removed. Necrons are too interesting.
Tyranids are too stupid to exist. Their fluff is a giant "we don't understand biology" sign, their models are ugly, and as a narrative element they're boring as hell.
My only problem with the Tyranid representation is that their fluff is just not threatening enough. There's some notion of a 'Great Devourer' descending upon the galaxy, but it is never really realized, so the threat just kind of falls to the wayside, easily ignored. We're told about the threat constantly, but there's no real representation of the threat itself. They need to have an event (similar to the Gathering Storm event) that had Tyranids overrunning nearby systems, showing the actual threat of the Great Devourer.
I don't think it'll ever happen, but that's I think Tyranids need to refocus on how much of a threat they are.
No threats were/are ever realized up until this point. The game was stuck at the same point in time for the last ~15+ years, so the Great Devourer was always on the cusp of arriving, just as all Necrons are on the cusp of waking up, and the Orks are on the cusp of reaching critical mass, and the "basically alive" Primarchs are on the cusp of returning, and Chaos is on the cusp of rampaging out of the Warp.
But now those last two have happened so who knows if the rest will be a thing in the next 5 years or so.
what the above poster said also they split the known galaxy in half so we will see a lot of blood Angels fighting tyranids for a while and I expect after the first wave of primarchs returning we will have a new tyranids push on that side of the map.
Melissia wrote: Tyranids are way too important to 40k lore to be removed. Necrons are too interesting.
Tyranids are too stupid to exist. Their fluff is a giant "we don't understand biology" sign, their models are ugly, and as a narrative element they're boring as hell.
My only problem with the Tyranid representation is that their fluff is just not threatening enough. There's some notion of a 'Great Devourer' descending upon the galaxy, but it is never really realized, so the threat just kind of falls to the wayside, easily ignored. We're told about the threat constantly, but there's no real representation of the threat itself. They need to have an event (similar to the Gathering Storm event) that had Tyranids overrunning nearby systems, showing the actual threat of the Great Devourer.
I don't think it'll ever happen, but that's I think Tyranids need to refocus on how much of a threat they are.
No threats were/are ever realized up until this point. The game was stuck at the same point in time for the last ~15+ years, so the Great Devourer was always on the cusp of arriving, just as all Necrons are on the cusp of waking up, and the Orks are on the cusp of reaching critical mass, and the "basically alive" Primarchs are on the cusp of returning, and Chaos is on the cusp of rampaging out of the Warp.
But now those last two have happened so who knows if the rest will be a thing in the next 5 years or so.
We already know the outcomes of all of those things.
Great Devourer was always on the cusp of being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Necrons are on the cusp of waking up and being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Orks are on the cusp of reaching critical mass then being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman Chaos is on the cusp of rampaging out of the Warp and sent back after being defeated by Cawl and Guilliman
less hyperbole guilliman is the current inspirational leader to return but it's fairly obvious by now he won't be the only one and I doubt Dorn or the lion is going to play nice nice with leader guiliman.
EnTyme wrote: I'll never understand why people expect GW to update Forge World rules. Yes, they are part of the same company, but so are Taco Bell and KFC. Ever walk into a KFC and as for a chalupa? You'll get some funny looks and directions to the nearest Taco Bell.
Yes, I used to walk into a KFC and order a Crunchwrap Supreme all of the time and never had a problem because it was a KFC/Taco Bell location...
Yeah... all of my local Taco Bells sell KFC food also. I thought that was pretty standard.
Melissia wrote: Tyranids are way too important to 40k lore to be removed. Necrons are too interesting.
Tyranids are too stupid to exist. Their fluff is a giant "we don't understand biology" sign, their models are ugly, and as a narrative element they're boring as hell.
My only problem with the Tyranid representation is that their fluff is just not threatening enough. There's some notion of a 'Great Devourer' descending upon the galaxy, but it is never really realized, so the threat just kind of falls to the wayside, easily ignored. We're told about the threat constantly, but there's no real representation of the threat itself. They need to have an event (similar to the Gathering Storm event) that had Tyranids overrunning nearby systems, showing the actual threat of the Great Devourer.
I don't think it'll ever happen, but that's I think Tyranids need to refocus on how much of a threat they are.
Odd, I consistently saw it the other way, nids were the only real threat and too much of the unstoppable juggernaut - everything else in the galaxy was a joke comparatively speaking.
alleus wrote: I remember when the Blood Angels codex had a Stormraven entry, but there wasn't a Stormraven model for quite some time. I'd much prefer this for the upcoming Primaris releases. People can feel free to convert their own models until they are officially released, but I just don't want three of four more datasheets on top of the codex right away..
They'll never release rules for a unit without releasing a unit again. The whole Chapter House issue cemented that. That's why the Tyranid Spore was renamed. It'll be rules in a box or updates via the yearly Chapter Approved books.
Well, that's not entirely true - we got rules for Rough Riders in Index Imperium 2 and they're not selling the models at the moment. And there were the recent Marbo rules for SW:A, and I think 7E? They may be reconsidering that opinion, at least for old models - maybe we will see the Doom of Malanti and Parasite of Mortex (sp?) come back - this time with models?
EnTyme wrote: I'll never understand why people expect GW to update Forge World rules. Yes, they are part of the same company, but so are Taco Bell and KFC. Ever walk into a KFC and as for a chalupa? You'll get some funny looks and directions to the nearest Taco Bell.
Yes, I used to walk into a KFC and order a Crunchwrap Supreme all of the time and never had a problem because it was a KFC/Taco Bell location...
Yeah... all of my local Taco Bells sell KFC food also. I thought that was pretty standard.
The fact that you're incapable of grasping that someone living within their means and so operating with a limited hobby budget is exactly why they might express a bit of frustration at the prospect a purchase will turn out to have less value than they initially thought it would is exactly the problem with your sanctimony. The underlying implication that anyone who does have to operate with a limited hobby budget shouldn't be part of the hobby at all is one that pops up on Dakka with pretty annoying frequency and it just needs to bloody stop - if people can't muster up some shred of basic sympathy for people who're not as well off, at least spare everyone the unsolicited financial advice.
This is a great point and I totally agree. It falls flat when people are complaining that they bought all the indexes for "all of their armies" and that now they'll need to spend hundreds to play.
So either
1) They're living beyond their means, or
2) Complaining for the sake of complaining
I do wish GW had just put the indexes out for free. That would have made sense. I'm otherwise only out $25 and it's not worth the rage to get concerned about for me - for others on a tighter budget i'm sure it sucks.
The fact that you're incapable of grasping that someone living within their means and so operating with a limited hobby budget is exactly why they might express a bit of frustration at the prospect a purchase will turn out to have less value than they initially thought it would is exactly the problem with your sanctimony. The underlying implication that anyone who does have to operate with a limited hobby budget shouldn't be part of the hobby at all is one that pops up on Dakka with pretty annoying frequency and it just needs to bloody stop - if people can't muster up some shred of basic sympathy for people who're not as well off, at least spare everyone the unsolicited financial advice.
I'm capable of grasping it, but you know the price of the hobby going into it. No one got tricked in with an entire free army and then suddenly can't afford a $40 book.
Is it somewhat frustrating that SM and CSM are getting their Indices "invalidated" by a new Codex release? Yeah, I get that. If you're playing mono SM or CSM and everything you own is getting replaced in a month, needing a new book, that sucks. It does, and no one likes buying something only to be told they need to buy the next edition immediately. Been there, done that.
But given that the Index + Codex (if they are priced similarly to AoS Battletomes) is pretty much the same price as 7th edition Codices, and that the Index still gives you rules for armies that won't get Codices for a while, and that the Index let you play the game for a month before the book came out, complaining about that relatively small price seems a bit silly.
Especially since the index isn't invalid until all the armies inside get Codices, so if you have Imperium 1 and want to pick up some Deathwatch, DA, BA, LotD, or SW until they get updated, it still retains value. And Chaos will retain value until they do 1k Sons, World Eaters, all of Daemons, and Traitor Knights. (And maybe Emperor's Children?)
The fact that you're incapable of grasping that someone living within their means and so operating with a limited hobby budget is exactly why they might express a bit of frustration at the prospect a purchase will turn out to have less value than they initially thought it would is exactly the problem with your sanctimony. The underlying implication that anyone who does have to operate with a limited hobby budget shouldn't be part of the hobby at all is one that pops up on Dakka with pretty annoying frequency and it just needs to bloody stop - if people can't muster up some shred of basic sympathy for people who're not as well off, at least spare everyone the unsolicited financial advice.
I'm capable of grasping it, but you know the price of the hobby going into it. No one got tricked in with an entire free army and then suddenly can't afford a $40 book.
Is it somewhat frustrating that SM and CSM are getting their Indices "invalidated" by a new Codex release? Yeah, I get that. If you're playing mono SM or CSM and everything you own is getting replaced in a month, needing a new book, that sucks. It does, and no one likes buying something only to be told they need to buy the next edition immediately. Been there, done that.
But given that the Index + Codex (if they are priced similarly to AoS Battletomes) is pretty much the same price as 7th edition Codices, and that the Index still gives you rules for armies that won't get Codices for a while, and that the Index let you play the game for a month before the book came out, complaining about that relatively small price seems a bit silly.
Especially since the index isn't invalid until all the armies inside get Codices, so if you have Imperium 1 and want to pick up some Deathwatch, DA, BA, LotD, or SW until they get updated, it still retains value. And Chaos will retain value until they do 1k Sons, World Eaters, all of Daemons, and Traitor Knights. (And maybe Emperor's Children?)
Except the price raises weekly if not more often. Also I got a lot of money to blow but that's an expression, I do not want to give a multi million dollar company my money for taking out their out of print garbage.
In whfb people litterally gave GW tons of money to carry their garbage out.... People literally got couple hours use out of a couple hundred dollars. That's hooker prices, like a good one too.
Free indexes would be nice, but what pisses me more is that they were not included into 420 dollar collector's edition. Still not sure if it was good idea to buy it.
Since not all of these 2017 codexs will have models, at least we are getting the ones who don't really need anything new or a major overhaul i.e. grey knights out of the way first.
Is every army getting new models too? Some of them. Certain armies will get new miniatures alongside their new codex, and others won’t. Don’t worry though, our miniatures designers are working hard and we’ll get to all of you eventually – we’re well aware you all want new models for your chosen army.
I don't want new models, GW. Every time you add new models to my army you butcher the fluff just that little bit more as you don't seem to be able to look past "giant shooty-stompy robots!" as the theme of my army.
Imateria wrote: Enough with the fething space marines GW, in the last 2 years we've had all of 2 major none Power Armour releases (Tau and GSC), by October that number goes down to 1.
*checks over my 7th Ed In Memoriam*
Codex: Harlies - 2015
Codex: Skitarii - 2015
Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus - 2015
Codex: Genestealer Cults - 2016
Codex Imperial Agents - 2016 (it has Sisters, but still)
I'd forgotten about Imperial Agents (which also had Deathwatch and Grey Knights as well), but I think most people wanted to forget about that hack job anyway.
I meant 2 years specifically as 24 months, so that discounts pretty much everything before Codex Dark Angels, and I did that because I know there was a lot of non Space Marine releases in the first half of 15. Thats still more than 2 years ago though.
I can certainly empathise with people having limited hobby budgets, mine is as well. But in this case I cannot really fathom the complaints. We knew this would happen. GW said that there would be codices, and with new marine models being previewed, it was pretty damn obvious that the marine codex would be among the first to be published and it would happen soon. Everybody knew this (at least everybody frequenting these forums) when they bought their Imperium 1 Index, so it is really silly to cry about it now.
I don't want new models, GW. Every time you add new models to my army you butcher the fluff just that little bit more as you don't seem to be able to look past "giant shooty-stompy robots!" as the theme of my army.
New models doesn't have to mean new units though. Nearly every faction has got at least a couple of resin character models or squads that could do with porting over to plastic.
Melissia wrote: And at least one faction has almost no plastic to speak of. Though I'm fairly certain we're not going to be one of the ten released this year.
Look on the bright side: SOB got an "update" with the new edition right?
A swanky new St. Celestine as well.
So what do you think is the hold-up?
Armed and armored nuns in space a bit of a politically correct hot potato or just too critical to the fluff where they cannot "Squat" them?
I look at it as a missed opportunity for a faction to show that some loophole of not being allowed to "control men under arms" will show a force with a ton of character and potentially cooler looking than anything out there.
At the very least, it has been so long, they can do a redesign of pretty much everything.
When they do get around to it I hope it is not something as silly as the chains on weapons shtick that my BTSM's got.
Same reason as before. There's no one in the company that likes them enough to bother working on them. The "new GW" isn't really much different than the old one in that regard. Whether or not a faction gets new rules or new models is, just like before, dependent on whether or not some big-name employee at GW is enough of a fan to bother pushing for it. What is updated isn't decided out of what needs updating, but out of fanboyism.
Same reason as before. There's no one in the company that likes them enough to bother working on them. The "new GW" isn't really much different than the old one in that regard.
In a meeting at GW:
"Well it's time to update Sisters. We have St Celestine, featured them alongside main armies in Imperium 2, gave them their own article during the buildup, and people are clamoring for them. The rules are pretty good so we just need models. Let's get started."
"Nah, I don't like them."
"What?"
"Nah, they're not really my 'thing', you know?"
-"Me neither."
-"Yeah I just don't like them."
"But it's your job. I'm your boss! Work on the models!"
"Nah, I don't like them enough."
Whilst I'm exactly not holding my breath for plastic sisters, I think they're now way more likely than ever before. They already have the CAD files for their armour from making Celestine and her pals, so most of the work is already done.
In the past there was an ongoing problem with a race that had an old codex vs one with new and the increased chaos that the change in editions played. It will be interesting to see the issues with some races having a codex vs no codex (index only). We are discussing a house rule where both opponents must have access to a codex for their army for either to use one.
Same reason as before. There's no one in the company that likes them enough to bother working on them. The "new GW" isn't really much different than the old one in that regard.
In a meeting at GW:
"Well it's time to update Sisters. We have St Celestine, featured them alongside main armies in Imperium 2, gave them their own article during the buildup, and people are clamoring for them. The rules are pretty good so we just need models. Let's get started."
"Nah, I don't like them."
"What?"
"Nah, they're not really my 'thing', you know?"
-"Me neither."
-"Yeah I just don't like them."
"But it's your job. I'm your boss! Work on the models!"
"Nah, I don't like them enough."
This is actually how companies are run.
That's a depressingly accurate depiction of product meetings. Except with less flowery language.
Same reason as before. There's no one in the company that likes them enough to bother working on them. The "new GW" isn't really much different than the old one in that regard.
In a meeting at GW:
"Well it's time to update Sisters. We have St Celestine, featured them alongside main armies in Imperium 2, gave them their own article during the buildup, and people are clamoring for them. The rules are pretty good so we just need models. Let's get started."
"Nah, I don't like them."
"What?"
"Nah, they're not really my 'thing', you know?"
-"Me neither."
-"Yeah I just don't like them."
"But it's your job. I'm your boss! Work on the models!"
"Nah, I don't like them enough."
This is actually how companies are run.
That's a depressingly accurate depiction of product meetings. Except with less flowery language.
It's basically what happened to the Squats, too. Nobody cared or was interested enough to work on them, so they got, well, squatted.
aka_mythos wrote: I shouldn't be surprised but I am. GW told us that this edition would start with a great deal of emphasis on the conflict between the Imperium and Chaos. So that's what we're getting and somehow people are surprised what we were told over a month ago was true.
Surprised is the wrong word; I would say that "dismayed" and "aggravated" would be better. It's nice to focus on the Imperium vs Chaos war, but they are releasing 10 books before Christmas; I don't think it would be too much to ask that 2 or 3 of those are not Power Armor books. "Focus on" doesn't necessarily mean the exclusion of everything else.
I think he was pointing out the absurdity of your position. yes to a degree if a employee with some influance likes something he might push for it, but it's also a bean counting thing. I suspect the meetings for GW go more along these lines.
CEO> alright folks, it's time to talk releases for the next year.
Beancounter> Alright, our leading army is space Marines it's clearly the most popular, in quarter 2, we're expecting things to be weakish, let's have some space marines for that.
Developer> well ok, since we wanna do some space marines anyway, we could redo a few of the old kits, the Scout Marine kit is a few years old and looking a bit long in the tooth.
Developer 2> I dunno, we could do Death Watch instead. I bet they'd be popular, we could selll a new codex for them, and some economic data from our lisencing agreement with FFG suggests there is a lot of intrest in deathwatch
Bean Counter> I think Dev 2's idea might make some more sense that way so we'll go with it.
CEO> alright the other releases, I was thinking maybe Tau, Eldar and Sisters of Battle
Beancounter> Tau and Eldar are selling pretty well. the eldar have a wide deep range and that appeals to people, and market research shows people like the Tau's battlesuits, given the sucess of the Imperial Knight perhaps a giant Tau suit? Sisters of Battle I don't think would be a good use of resources, the current sisters suggests they sell quite poorly.
Dev 1> part of that could be affordability, the price of a squad of sisters is a lot.
Bean Counter> we have several units with a similer price as sisters of battle that see considerably greater sales. no I think people are just unintreasted.
And yes I know the units with a similer price that see greater sales are 1: avaliable outside of web order. 2: are plastic and posable
It's basically what happened to the Squats, too. Nobody cared or was interested enough to work on them, so they got, well, squatted.
Contrary to popular belief here this is not how most businesses work and squats were dropped, because the concept was terrible and they couldn't do it justice carrying it forward.
After reading interviews with the big guys that have leave GW, I think you are giving the desing studio of GW too much credit and profesionalism, BrianDavion.
They have always been afterall a bunch of nerds And the ones that weren't nerds, the marketing and economical department, where Tom Kirby acolytes, so... not much better.
I assume they do it now under Roundtree but they didn't had data and marketing research before
Same reason as before. There's no one in the company that likes them enough to bother working on them. The "new GW" isn't really much different than the old one in that regard. Whether or not a faction gets new rules or new models is, just like before, dependent on whether or not some big-name employee at GW is enough of a fan to bother pushing for it. What is updated isn't decided out of what needs updating, but out of fanboyism.
I know you said you aren't joking after posting this, but come on! GW management are only fans of money, that drives their decisions more than any other factor.
Same reason as before. There's no one in the company that likes them enough to bother working on them. The "new GW" isn't really much different than the old one in that regard.
In a meeting at GW:
"Well it's time to update Sisters. We have St Celestine, featured them alongside main armies in Imperium 2, gave them their own article during the buildup, and people are clamoring for them. The rules are pretty good so we just need models. Let's get started."
"Nah, I don't like them."
"What?"
"Nah, they're not really my 'thing', you know?"
-"Me neither."
-"Yeah I just don't like them."
"But it's your job. I'm your boss! Work on the models!"
"Nah, I don't like them enough."
This is actually how companies are run.
That's a depressingly accurate depiction of product meetings. Except with less flowery language.
It's basically what happened to the Squats, too. Nobody cared or was interested enough to work on them, so they got, well, squatted.
That is an over simplification isn't it?
Wasn't it more a matter of Squats not having their own role on the game table that wasn't already filled by other factions (Space Marines and Guard specifically)?
There is a huge difference between "I don't like that, so I won't bother wasting time on it" and "this thing is redundant and doesn't really fit in our product line so it isn't worth devoting resources to fix it".
Anyway, the idea GW makes its product decisions based on the tastes of its management alone is ridiculous to me. Could the higher ups' taste influence things? Sure. But unless someone could provide minutes of a meeting or some other tangible proof that product releases are determined purely by the enthusiasm of GW management well, I am going to just take that claim as nothing more than disappointed fans trying to find an outlet to direct their frustrations over a faction they feel isn't getting enough support.
Wasn't it more a matter of Squats not having their own role on the game table that wasn't already filled by other factions (Space Marines and Guard specifically)?
There is a huge difference between "I don't like that, so I won't bother wasting time on it" and "this thing is redundant and doesn't really fit in our product line so it isn't worth devoting resources to fix it".
Anyway, the idea GW makes its product decisions based on the tastes of its management alone is ridiculous to me. Could the higher ups' taste influence things? Sure. But unless someone could provide minutes of a meeting or some other tangible proof that product releases are determined purely by the enthusiasm of GW management well, I am going to just take that claim as nothing more than disappointed fans trying to find an outlet to direct their frustrations over a faction they feel isn't getting enough support.
We don't let reality get in the way of making whatever argument we want here!
Same reason as before. There's no one in the company that likes them enough to bother working on them.
Funny. There was this video with the guy who created the SoB and the sculptor of Inquisitor Greyfax, where Steve Bundle actually says he made her thinking of SoB power armour. We can also point to Celestine and the twins as laying the CG bedrock to done Sisters in plastic.
And for niche stuff, see Harlequins and Genestealer Cults. And this is why Sisters players expect Zoats and Slann before a proper Sisters release. There is no reason why GW doesn't do Sisters at this point--ZERO.
The kicker is - They've already done the hard part of the Sisters. They now have the base 3D models that encompasses 95% of the line.
Cannoness, Celestine and her two Seraphim make up the core of any Sister model. They have universal mount points already, which makes me think that this is their original intent. They've already proven they can produce the sprue accurately in plastic. So there really isn't much - if anything - from a production standpoint stopping it. It just needs the green light.
ncshooter426 wrote: The kicker is - They've already done the hard part of the Sisters. They now have the base 3D models that encompasses 95% of the line.
Cannoness, Celestine and her two Seraphim make up the core of any Sister model. They have universal mount points already, which makes me think that this is their original intent. They've already proven they can produce the sprue accurately in plastic. So there really isn't much - if anything - from a production standpoint stopping it. It just needs the green light.
One of my hopes is that, by not releasing the codex in this year, that they are taking the time to really figure out where they want to take sisters as a faction, and then add/create kits as necessary to fulfill this.
Crimson wrote: I can certainly empathise with people having limited hobby budgets, mine is as well. But in this case I cannot really fathom the complaints. We knew this would happen. GW said that there would be codices, and with new marine models being previewed, it was pretty damn obvious that the marine codex would be among the first to be published and it would happen soon. Everybody knew this (at least everybody frequenting these forums) when they bought their Imperium 1 Index, so it is really silly to cry about it now.
I'm not annoyed at Codices being released. I was hopeful they would release books with more depth and detail.
I'm utterly dismayed that they aren't putting stuff in the Codex that was in the Index. They've already said if you want rules for things like the Imperial Space Marine, Land Raider Ultra, or Legion of the Damned, you'll need to keep your Index. Those won't be in the Space Marine Codex.
Bloody hell. If you buy a new hardback Codex for Space Marines, then discover you need to buy another book to use some of your Space Marines--and that book is otherwise made obsolete by the book you just bought--I think you'd be rightfully annoyed.
I still think expensive hardcover Codices are a barrier to entry, and a deterrent to both new players and players starting a new faction, but having expanded rulebooks that don't cover things in the truncated rulebook, while making that book obsolete, is such a bad idea.
Ok, just cut through the whole thread.....wow. I, for one, am happy that they will be doing full codices to flesh out the armies, but I'm glad that I held off on purchasing the index books as I would have been extremely aggravated at the waste of money. I am in full agreement that they should have all been free downloads while waiting for the codex releases. I can't believe that there are people that don't understand, whether you can or can't afford something, being aggravated at dropping money (forget the amount) on something that is essentially useless within a year. I know that you don't have to use the codices, however, since they are putting new units and updated rules, etc in them, it really does gimp things. Sure you can try to only use the indexes and only play against people that are willing to do that, but that will really limit your opponent base. You would have to have a closed gaming group, and your group would need to feel the same way. For those that play at a shop, this is not going to be a realistic view of things.
Da Butcha wrote: I still think expensive hardcover Codices are a barrier to entry, and a deterrent to both new players and players starting a new faction, but having expanded rulebooks that don't cover things in the truncated rulebook, while making that book obsolete, is such a bad idea.
The first part of this is so true! If one didn't know it would be easy to assume that GW was a book company and not a model company because they keep serving up big expensive books to play their game. Problem is no one want to shell out $100 for books for a game they aren't sure they want to play. And we won't even talk about new units/models being added to an army. Also, every start collecting box from now on should include the 12 page rules and a double-sided data slate on the models in the box.
The second point might be what we saw in AoS happening already. And what I mean is that if it isn't in the new book(s) then it probably isn't going to be in the game in the future. The Indexes cover all the models available and the Codexes cover all the models that will be available.
Galas wrote: After reading interviews with the big guys that have leave GW, I think you are giving the desing studio of GW too much credit and profesionalism, BrianDavion.
They have always been afterall a bunch of nerds And the ones that weren't nerds, the marketing and economical department, where Tom Kirby acolytes, so... not much better.
I assume they do it now under Roundtree but they didn't had data and marketing research before
well.. keep in mind, I was going for a VEEEERY subtle "the bean counter just looks at the numbers, draws incorrect conclusions, and doesn't do any actual market research" vibe
such as the fact that SOBs sell less then say, terminators, and "clearly it's because no one is intreasted in SOBs!"
As much as I love SoB speculation (I would seriously think about liquidating some assets to start an army if they were in plastic), I feel like we're getting dangerously close to Rule #2 warning (and I've already gotten one of those today). Anyone want to start up a thread in general to continue it?
Codexes will only contain units they intend to keep in stock for a while / foreseeable future. Including the Imperial Space Marine in the Index avoided pissing people off, but keeping on publishing rules for unavailable models just creates a potential Chapterhouse 2.0 situation, whereby 3rd parties have gaps they can fill. GW feel it's better to only sell rules for what you can find on their shelves... and it's not a crazy strategy, really. We've already seen it in AOS Skirmish recently, where inclusions were based not even on what they still make, but just what is a plastic box set in store. Expect that template to be followed for Codexes.
P.S. I'll gladly take someone's 'useless' Index Imperium 1 or Index Chaos off them when they upgrade, you know, to save them throwing it away.
It seems like such a messy way to do things. For space marines I guess it makes sense as they're likely to see several new kits a year, so having the codex update along with the range makes some sense. This doesn't make as much sense for the xenos side of things though.
If they are releasing all the codexes in a 12 month span, what comes after that? That is my fear here. I doubt they pick up a third game to fill the slots that would have been filled by semi-regular codex releases. So whats left?
I don't know I feel like the indexes were the time to take ALL the 40k rules for all factions and lay them out in a more beginner or casual friendly manner, then use them as a base to add new rules yearly or bi-annually but keep a similar index style product line.
So instead on Xenos: 2 you'd have Tau and necrons, Split off Eldar into their own book and Orks and Tyranids in one. Imperium gets a third book and Chaos gets a second. That frees up room for extra rules and doesn't multiply the product line by 3.
Instead of having upwards 20 rulebooks you'd have what 7 or 8 possibly?
If the codexes construction matched their intended use rather than being essentially the collectors edition without a cheaper option I'd having nothing bad to say.It's not a great way to build community or foster growth.
It's too bad they aren't breaking from this tradition. I'd happily buy a floppy 'just the rules' codex for 15USD for my GSC. Yearly. I won't be buying a 35-40USD hardback that sits on a shelf after a year though, that doesn't have enough value for me.
Requizen wrote: ....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...
The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves. The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.
It sadly isn't that absurd a position. Fantasy saw it in several ways, the abandonment of Bretonnians, the long update times for wood elves (largely a result of no idea what to do with them that wasn't done with the other two elf armies), the Matt Ward orc & goblin army book that was bad because he didn't particularly like orcs.
We saw the same thing for a fair few codexes too. The (in)famous 3e chaos codex with the ridiculous Iron Warriors rules because Pete Haines was an Iron Warriors player. Cruddace nids were a major departure from any nid 'dex before him.
Requizen wrote: ....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...
The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves. The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.
They building and painting is an enjoyable part of the hobby, not a downside that one suffers through. At least, it isn't supposed to be. That's like half the selling point of miniatures.
Requizen wrote: ....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...
The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules. We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves. The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.
Technically they are. or at least they are trying.
you just dont get to have it in a nice bound book.
just a bunch of loose pamphlets. (if anything they should of gone the non collectable card route though that also gets expensive if units get revised over and over)
Also please merciful god no formations no formations no formations.
Do unique detachments specific to particular armies count as formations? We know those are coming. Presumably all they would do is offer more CP for using detachments tailored to certain armies. Or the detachments offer an easier time building fluffy lists, such as mechanicus getting a detachment that doesn't force us to take 2-3 magos to field a decent sized army.
Requizen wrote: ....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...
The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves. The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.
They building and painting is an enjoyable part of the hobby, not a downside that one suffers through. At least, it isn't supposed to be. That's like half the selling point of miniatures.
Absolutely it's enjoyable, it is (in my opinion) the best part of the hobby... but it's still expensive.
What isn't enjoyable is being charged extra to know how to play with your hobby, for a game that you've already purchased the rulebook of. The hobby can be very expensive (which is fine) but "Warhammer 40 000: The Game" should not be, at all.
Updates to rules (like Codexes) should be like patches to a video game. "Free DLC," if you will. You could purchase a hardback Codex for the fluff and art (or just as a nice handy tome of your model's in-game rules), but they should also be available on the GW site FOR FREE BECAUSE YOU'VE ALREADY BOUGHT THE GAME. AND YOU ALREADY BOUGHT, BUILT, PAINTED AND CREATED EVERYTHING REQUIRED FOR THE GAME.
I agree about formation except for this: Until I get a Codex for Necrons I will not play vs another codex unless they let me use my most recent codex, just like the good old days of 5th and 6th when the Necrons had to slog through with the same codex, except this time with Decurion and Canoptek Harvest with multi-wound bugs getting Reanimation Protocols at +4.
What I am really pointing to is the idiocy of the GW release schedule.
I know you said you aren't joking after posting this, but come on! GW management are only fans of money, that drives their decisions more than any other factor.
You're right. And that is precisely why armies which aren't Space Marines need people in the design studio who are passionate about them or else they get neglected. If there isn't anybody in the design studio who is passionate about your army, then there isn't anyone to pitch to the accountants and put forth why investing money into a risk like a huge reworking of a line which sells poorly is better than just releasing a new Space Marine kit which can be sold to probably over 50% of the customer base with basically no risk at all.
Tokhuah wrote: I agree about formation except for this: Until I get a Codex for Necrons I will not play vs another codex unless they let me use my most recent codex, just like the good old days of 5th and 6th when the Necrons had to slog through with the same codex, except this time with Decurion and Canoptek Harvest with multi-wound bugs getting Reanimation Protocols at +4.
What I am really pointing to is the idiocy of the GW release schedule.
10 codexes in 6 months is a fairy decent release schedule. There really isn't much else they could do unless they just didn't release rule supplements for a year to drop them all at once (which would be even more of an issue money wise for people with multiple armies).
Tokhuah wrote: I agree about formation except for this: Until I get a Codex for Necrons I will not play vs another codex unless they let me use my most recent codex, just like the good old days of 5th and 6th when the Necrons had to slog through with the same codex, except this time with Decurion and Canoptek Harvest with multi-wound bugs getting Reanimation Protocols at +4.
What I am really pointing to is the idiocy of the GW release schedule.
You can "use" it, but only as a display board. The rules are invalid.
Tokhuah wrote: I agree about formation except for this: Until I get a Codex for Necrons I will not play vs another codex unless they let me use my most recent codex, just like the good old days of 5th and 6th when the Necrons had to slog through with the same codex, except this time with Decurion and Canoptek Harvest with multi-wound bugs getting Reanimation Protocols at +4.
What I am really pointing to is the idiocy of the GW release schedule.
You can "use" it, but only as a display board. The rules are invalid.
the differance betwen 5th vs 7th, and 7th vs 8th, is the rules are fundamentally diferant. whereas before it was just changes to the core rules and "your USRs are a bit differant"
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am excited for the CSM codex. I just hope they don't nerf anything we currently already have... >_<
I'm expecting minimal changes on stuff in the indexes, clarification of rules, changes of points (anything drasticly over or under pointed will be fixed)
Well, that's how nerfs come in sometimes. A big increase in points for something is a nerf.
Let's say right now a chaos LR is already pricey at 300 plus points (with its guns). And then they increased it even more so that its now 400 points with guns... That's a nerf. Especially when you consider that a Storm raven costs (which chaos doesn't have) also costs 300 over points is essentially a flying land raider with a higher transport capability and heavier armaments ... So, it has all the benefits and more for being a flyer and costs the same. Then an increase in the already expensive chaos LR in terms of points would be a nerf.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, that's how nerfs come in sometimes. A big increase in points for something is a nerf.
true but I can't think of any obvious cases of "needs points increase" for chaos. if anything I suspect they could stand to have a few things drop a point or two.
My feelings are definitely a mixture of being disappointed to see that it's again going to be a giant unbalanceable mess of codexes (when I hoped the game would be getting simpler), and satisfaction that I didn't buy any of the indexes. I definitely think it's reasonable for people to be unhappy that they bought a rulebook in good faith that was nearly immediately invalidated.
Da Butcha wrote: I'm utterly dismayed that they aren't putting stuff in the Codex that was in the Index. They've already said if you want rules for things like the Imperial Space Marine, Land Raider Ultra, or Legion of the Damned, you'll need to keep your Index. Those won't be in the Space Marine Codex.
Just thought I'd point out 2 things: 1. The Imperial Space Marine was the '30th Anniversary of Space Marines Existing' model and is no longer in production. Before 8th, the only way to get its rules was to buy the limited edition model. 2. The Terminus Ultra hasn't had an official kit available from GW in years, and only just got new rules in 8th for the first time in years. It hasn't had rules since Apocalypse War Zone: Damnos, and even then they were for Apocalypse only back in 6th edition. On top of that it was only part of a very specific Apocalypse Formation and couldn't be taken individually - the last time that happened was Apocalypse: Reloaded back in 5th Edition.
Those 2 not getting rules in the codex makes some sense at the very least, especially the Imperial Space Marine.
Legion of the Damned are a bit surprising given they've been in the Space Marine codex for years, even after they got their poor excuse for an individual, digital codex. Maybe they'll appear in an Imperial Agents style codex down the pipeline, or maybe not.
10 codexes in 6 months is a fairy decent release schedule. There really isn't much else they could do unless they just didn't release rule supplements for a year to drop them all at once (which would be even more of an issue money wise for people with multiple armies).
...or abandon the codex model completely, and stick with the indexes to reduce the number of different books people need to buy to keep up with the rules.
...or release the rules online or with the models, and use the Codex the way Privateer have done, to provide expanded fluff for those who want it without actually requiring the book to play the army.
At the very least, if the indexes had been included with the rules or released online, people wouldn't be complaining as much about the codexes coming along and invalidating them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wouldn't mind them doing themed detachments for different armies. That could work.
The generic Detachments basically allow full freedom to make your army as you wan't. What form could take "themed" detachments?
Basically formations. AoS does it in their Battletomes. Like Sylvaneth Wargroves. Take x amount of specific troops, x amount of specific HQs, etc., etc and you have access to special rules for that battalion. Many times they also have restrictions on other units. Makes the Wargroves (battalions) more fluffy. I assume that is what H.B.M.C. is getting at
Just thought I'd point out 2 things:
1. The Imperial Space Marine was the '30th Anniversary of Space Marines Existing' model and is no longer in production. Before 8th, the only way to get its rules was to buy the limited edition model.
2. The Terminus Ultra hasn't had an official kit available from GW in years, and only just got new rules in 8th for the first time in years. It hasn't had rules since Apocalypse War Zone: Damnos, and even then they were for Apocalypse only back in 6th edition. On top of that it was only part of a very specific Apocalypse Formation and couldn't be taken individually - the last time that happened was Apocalypse: Reloaded back in 5th Edition.
Those 2 not getting rules in the codex makes some sense at the very least, especially the Imperial Space Marine.
Legion of the Damned are a bit surprising given they've been in the Space Marine codex for years, even after they got their poor excuse for an individual, digital codex. Maybe they'll appear in an Imperial Agents style codex down the pipeline, or maybe not.
It may make sense not to have them in the Codex, but then why put them in the Index either?The models aren't available, as you have said.
But does it make more sense to put them in a large, hardback book devoted to the faction, or a smaller paperback book which gives only the bare minimum rules and background necessary for the faction?
I'm totally fine with a Index Apocrypha book, which has rules for all sorts of out of print models (Oh, god, would that be amazing). I'm unhappy about, but not really stridently angry about simply dropping rules for OOP models. Speaking as an Ork player, who would really, really like to see rules for Kill Krushas and Battlefortresses and Grot Bombs, I'm really sorry not to see new rules for my old models, and really willing to pay for a nice book that includes rules for them.
But to have the only source for model rules be in a book which is designed to be superseded by another book which will render most, but not all of it, invalid? That's an annoying business model. Explain that one to a new player.
"I just bought the rulebook and the Space Marine Codex. What's this I read about the Legion of the Damned? Are those Space Marines?"
"They sure are! You can buy the models, but if you want to play them, their rules are in this Space Marine Index."
"Index? I already have the Space Marine Codex? Does this give me more detail, or background? Could I have bought it instead?"
"Nope. It's already obsoleted by the Codex. But if you want the rules for those guys, you have to buy it, too, despite all the other rules being replaced. By the way, it doesn't have much in the way of background, art, or story, as the focus of the Index is on rules for play."
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am excited for the CSM codex. I just hope they don't nerf anything we currently already have... >_<
I'm expecting minimal changes on stuff in the indexes, clarification of rules, changes of points (anything drasticly over or under pointed will be fixed)
I wouldn't think so. The CSM codex was probably sent to the printer months ago. There probably hasn't been much play testing between the time the indexes were set and this codex was. I doubt GW knew back then what the broken stuff was. They are only now getting an inkling. I doubt any codex in 2017 (or at least for a few months) will have point values fixed based upon what we know now.
As a quite new ork player myself I'm quite happy to get a codex full of fluff, great pictures and flavour rules, even if its in a year or so.
What I'm really affraid of is (apart for the period where not all codexes are out), if codexes are developped one at a time again where indexes where developped as a whole ( andI say if, because I can't say that's the case), is the return of utter misbalance between armies.
I mean, you can easily update an index which is nothing more than a practical(and relatively cheap) rule handbook and nothing else.
I feel codexes are a bit more than that. And I certainly don't want to patch it up by hand with a red pen (and several times) some monthes after its release. What I'm trying to say is that it may be too early. Maybe codexes should not be published at the dawn of an edition, but at its zenith, when you have enough feedback, but the edition is still thriving. But I realize it makes no sense on a commercial point.
The actual big mistake GW made is not publishing the unit rules for free online as they do with AOS. By doing this and making the Indexes a convenience purchase for use as a stopgap, it means consumers have made the active choice with the knowledge that they are a temporary measure.
Otherwise it is great to see Codexes coming thick and fast.
The actual big mistake GW made is not publishing the unit rules for free online as they do with AOS. By doing this and making the Indexes a convenience purchase for use as a stopgap, it means consumers have made the active choice with the knowledge that they are a temporary measure.
Otherwise it is great to see Codexes coming thick and fast.
Yeah, mixed feelings on it myself. My Xeno 2 book is still in its wrapping as i've been reading the leaked version so could send it back.
GW did say 8th will be the most playtested version of the game, they just didn't say that buying their indexes was part of that playtest
Things will be unbalanced again immediately, there's no doubt about that. CP spam plus army-specific synergised Stratagems will favour whoever has a Dex designed to specifically buff them properly, vs the guy limping along on default Warlord traits, bog standard Psychic powers and three basic stratagems.
Hell, it's not balanced right now. Eldar get to cast more powers than my Tyranids, who are reduced to spamming Smite once they've used their three basic powers.
JohnnyHell wrote: Things will be unbalanced again immediately, there's no doubt about that. CP spam plus army-specific synergised Stratagems will favour whoever has a Dex designed to specifically buff them properly, vs the guy limping along on default Warlord traits, bog standard Psychic powers and three basic stratagems.
Hell, it's not balanced right now. Eldar get to cast more powers than my Tyranids, who are reduced to spamming Smite once they've used their three basic powers.
I'm right with you on that as Thousand Sons. Why Death Guard ended up being the faction with two spell lists and not us is beyond me. It would certainly make the Exalted Sorcerer a more attractive option if it could take from a different spell list (though if it did, Ahriman would also get that spell list and we're right back to the problem of ES's being a gakky Ahriman for only a few points less...).
I'm not sure how they could possibly avoid the armies with codices being superior to the armies without; having options is simply always better than not having options. I guess we'll have to see if <Army> Tactics and the various stratagems are significantly stronger than what's in the Index.
JohnnyHell wrote: Things will be unbalanced again immediately, there's no doubt about that. CP spam plus army-specific synergised Stratagems will favour whoever has a Dex designed to specifically buff them properly, vs the guy limping along on default Warlord traits, bog standard Psychic powers and three basic stratagems.
Hell, it's not balanced right now. Eldar get to cast more powers than my Tyranids, who are reduced to spamming Smite once they've used their three basic powers.
The good thing is that they will be releasing the Chapter Approved books every year to try and balance out discrepancies. There will never be perfect balance but by having a more active update cycle it means big issues can be smoothed out quickly.
I personally don't have an issue with Eldar being more psychically able than Tyranids. That seems fine to me. Eldar, TS, GK are the psychic armies in my opinion. Plus I don't think Tyranids are lacking . Too many psychic powers just bogs the game down when there is already so much variety in unit types and equipment. But that is besides the point.
My advice to people with specific balance issues is to contact GW directly - they openly solicit feedback. If you don't tell them something is an issue they may never find out about it.
JohnnyHell wrote: I'd still rather they did living PDF Points updates and changes, and left us money to buy models.
For the points, that's what they said they would do, so I guess you will be happy with that part.
I am personally happy that they provided us a low priced models updates with the shakedown they did with the rules. I see those as simple base line reset while we wait for the more detailed individual army updates with more special rules for specific army sub factions, specific stratagems and more extensive psychic choices.
To me, NewGWtm are still pressing on all the right button for what concerns me... well.... those Primaris marines should simply have been models for tactical marines but ... anyways...
Not all Plague Marines are Death Guard. Any Marine can become a Berzerker or Plague Marine or Noise Marine by devoting themselves to that god. Or a CSM warlord can just hire them. So they should appear in the CSM codex.
Anyway I don't see why people have a problem. We all knew from the start the Indexes were temporary stopgaps to be replaced by actual Codexes. Are people actually upset the Codexes are coming so soon?
To be fair, GW should have made all the content of the Indexes free, and that's where the anger should be. "All of your models are still legit in the new edition! As long as you buy our new rules..."
I have bought the Indexes that cover all the various armies that I play (Imperium 1 and 2, Xenos 2). I have no problem with Codexes coming out soon for part or all of the relevant bits of those indexes for me... As long as they maintain the model from 7th, where you get a hardback codex with all the rules, plus loads of fluff and pictures and other unnecessary stuff (from the gaming point of view, rather than hobby) and you also have the option of a Gamer's Edition digital codex, with rules only.
I'm 32, I've been playing Orks since I was 14. I have the internetz. I don't need pictures of painted Orks in my codex, I can look at arguably better painted models for inspiration here on Dakka. The fluff will be the last codexes' fluff, with an added paragraph or two mentioning the impact of the great warp rift, and adeptus restartes. Great, I can get a reader's digest version of the amended fluff by reading Dakka too. All I need is the rules, and I'm quite happy to get the Gamer's Edition digital copy of the rules (the enhanced one where when you click on a special rule that refers out to a different page, it either links you there, or pops up a box with the details).
Now I have an Index that gets me away right away, and further embellished rules and flavour coming later via a digital download that will cost significantly less than a hardback codex. Hurrah for 8th!!
If they don't offer the Gamer's Edition digital version, I will be thoroughly annoyed.
JohnnyHell wrote: Things will be unbalanced again immediately, there's no doubt about that. CP spam plus army-specific synergised Stratagems will favour whoever has a Dex designed to specifically buff them properly, vs the guy limping along on default Warlord traits, bog standard Psychic powers and three basic stratagems.
You mean like Orks were favored with their army-specific warlord traits, psychic diciplines and relics in their last codex?
If there is anything to learn from GW's history on this kind of thing, it's that the first two or three codices will probably be way to weak compared anything made afterwards.
10 codexes in 6 months is a fairy decent release schedule. There really isn't much else they could do unless they just didn't release rule supplements for a year to drop them all at once (which would be even more of an issue money wise for people with multiple armies).
...or abandon the codex model completely, and stick with the indexes to reduce the number of different books people need to buy to keep up with the rules.
...or release the rules online or with the models, and use the Codex the way Privateer have done, to provide expanded fluff for those who want it without actually requiring the book to play the army.
At the very least, if the indexes had been included with the rules or released online, people wouldn't be complaining as much about the codexes coming along and invalidating them.
Abandoning the codex model leaves us with really dull armies, and isn't a real option long term. There just isn't enough space in the indices to add rules to properly flesh out every army. Yes free army rules would be nice, but lets be honest here these will be scanned and uploaded within a week or two of release.
Eldarain wrote: Big moment coming up. Army specific "chapter tactics" psychic lores and strategems are all balance landmines given GW's history.
Certainly, but you won't be casting multiples of powers, stratagems are tied to a resource, and enough books will be coming out in a short time under the same design philosophy instead of years later when writers change their minds.
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Marleymoo wrote: So, will Plague Marines feature in Codex CSM or just in Codex Death Guard?
I guess just the Plague Marines will appear, leaving the fluffy units (poxwalkers and drones) to the Death Guard Codex.
I suppose that would apply to all God specific squads.
You'll be able to take any current CSM unit i'm sure.
The Death Guard book will just have their specific lore, stratagems, and unit selection. I would expect the *very* Death Guard stuff like Bloat Drones and Poxwalkers may not be in CSM.
I am getting confused by all this. Is there codexes & indexes? Or do codexes replace indexes? Or are indexes aka codexes? Are there codexes for each army? Or is it faction ciodexes? So lost.
krazynadechukr wrote: I am getting confused by all this. Is there codexes & indexes? Or do codexes replace indexes? Or are indexes aka codexes? Are there codexes for each army? Or is it faction ciodexes? So lost.
Requizen wrote: ....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...
The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves. The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.
They building and painting is an enjoyable part of the hobby, not a downside that one suffers through. At least, it isn't supposed to be. That's like half the selling point of miniatures.
Honestly, that depends on who you are. As a gamer, I love the depth, the fluff and the fluidity of the game, but I am not a hobbyist or artist, so I paint because I have to to participate in a game that I really enjoy.
Back OT; I wish they would have let the indexes ride for 6 months or so and then started the codex release cycle. Then, since the codices are already done, they could release 1 every 2 weeks rather than monthly and not have armies that will be left behind and languish for a while waiting for their new options. I just hope these are at $30.00 rather than $50.00; at 50, I may be back out of the game as quickly as I was back in
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Nuclear Mekanik wrote: I have bought the Indexes that cover all the various armies that I play (Imperium 1 and 2, Xenos 2). I have no problem with Codexes coming out soon for part or all of the relevant bits of those indexes for me... As long as they maintain the model from 7th, where you get a hardback codex with all the rules, plus loads of fluff and pictures and other unnecessary stuff (from the gaming point of view, rather than hobby) and you also have the option of a Gamer's Edition digital codex, with rules only.
I'm 32, I've been playing Orks since I was 14. I have the internetz. I don't need pictures of painted Orks in my codex, I can look at arguably better painted models for inspiration here on Dakka. The fluff will be the last codexes' fluff, with an added paragraph or two mentioning the impact of the great warp rift, and adeptus restartes. Great, I can get a reader's digest version of the amended fluff by reading Dakka too. All I need is the rules, and I'm quite happy to get the Gamer's Edition digital copy of the rules (the enhanced one where when you click on a special rule that refers out to a different page, it either links you there, or pops up a box with the details).
Now I have an Index that gets me away right away, and further embellished rules and flavour coming later via a digital download that will cost significantly less than a hardback codex. Hurrah for 8th!!
If they don't offer the Gamer's Edition digital version, I will be thoroughly annoyed.
I so wholeheartedly agree with this. I know the fluff of the Tyranids inside and out and I don't think they will ever add enough story to justify the price and I don't paint my nids like any of the fluff Hive Fleets, so there is nothing in those books that interest me. They need to keep the codices reasonably priced and the Gamer's Edition is a great option for this.
This is why I kept saying they need to ditch books entirely and move to putting the rules on cheap cardstock. That way it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to have all the rules.
I bought the 5 indexes on release because I own a small amount of models of almost each faction on top of my 2 main armies so they were pretty convenient for me. If the contents of the codexes is meaningful enough (relics and "chapter tactics" equivalents), and if they are softback, and if they are priced appropriately (20€ max) i can see myself picking up a couple for my main armies.
But that is a lot of "and"s ar "if"s. Otherwise I play with close friends, with the rulebook, the indexes and in-box stats I can manage for a loooong looong while.
I am however a bit dissappointed that all indexes will be at least partly invalidated within a year. But it's nothing unexpected.
hypnoticeris wrote: I bought the 5 indexes on release because I own a small amount of models of almost each faction on top of my 2 main armies so they were pretty convenient for me. If the contents of the codexes is meaningful enough (relics and "chapter tactics" equivalents), and if they are softback, and if they are priced appropriately (20€ max) i can see myself picking up a couple for my main armies.
But that is a lot of "and"s ar "if"s. Otherwise I play with close friends, with the rulebook, the indexes and in-box stats I can manage for a loooong looong while.
I am however a bit dissappointed that all indexes will be at least partly invalidated within a year. But it's nothing unexpected.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Also, be aware that the Codexes aren't really optional in that we've been told they will update and invalidate some unit entries found in the Indexes. You can always ignore the Codex and keep playing with the Index, but that would be the same as ignoring 8th and keep playing with 7th. If you want the most up to date rules, you (with your multi faction armies) will need to spend hundreds of euros on new books.
Ratius wrote: My 7 armies are eyeballing me warily right now
Your armies being like your children.
Which ones get the money before it runs out for the others... You may have to sell some off for medical experiments!
I am sure your wallet is eyeballing you even more warily, worrying about the stuffing being taken out of it.
If there is anything to learn from GW's history on this kind of thing, it's that the first two or three codices will probably be way to weak compared anything made afterwards.
generally agree. HOWEVER....
the first two books in 2nd edition that were released were Space Wolves and Eldar. Both had notoriety as being better than most books that followed in that edition.
hypnoticeris wrote: I bought the 5 indexes on release because I own a small amount of models of almost each faction on top of my 2 main armies so they were pretty convenient for me. If the contents of the codexes is meaningful enough (relics and "chapter tactics" equivalents), and if they are softback, and if they are priced appropriately (20€ max) i can see myself picking up a couple for my main armies.
But that is a lot of "and"s ar "if"s. Otherwise I play with close friends, with the rulebook, the indexes and in-box stats I can manage for a loooong looong while.
I am however a bit dissappointed that all indexes will be at least partly invalidated within a year. But it's nothing unexpected.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Also, be aware that the Codexes aren't really optional in that we've been told they will update and invalidate some unit entries found in the Indexes. You can always ignore the Codex and keep playing with the Index, but that would be the same as ignoring 8th and keep playing with 7th. If you want the most up to date rules, you (with your multi faction armies) will need to spend hundreds of euros on new books.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Glad I didn't buy the Chaos index (been able to play easily with enough leaked info).
If the hardbacks return tot he $50+ model I'll continue to play with the index. I don't find the armies "dull", but I don't need 1,000 special snow flake rules to enjoy playing a wargame. It blows my mind when people say anything is dull when you have 25 damn armies and 2-3x as many unit entries than existed 10-15 years ago. Spoiled much?
The codex direction I'd have wished to see them go will not happen so I won't even bother mentioning it here.
krazynadechukr wrote: I am getting confused by all this. Is there codexes & indexes? Or do codexes replace indexes? Or are indexes aka codexes? Are there codexes for each army? Or is it faction ciodexes? So lost.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
Might be a bit confusing if you don't follow AoS, but of the ones he linked, the only ones higher than $40 were old, pre GHB ones.
All the ones that have come out post GHB (i.e. the new standard) are $40 hardcover, $25 softcover. That's 33EUR hardcover, 20EUR softcover.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
Might be a bit confusing if you don't follow AoS, but of the ones he linked, the only ones higher than $40 were old, pre GHB ones.
All the ones that have come out post GHB (i.e. the new standard) are $40 hardcover, $25 softcover. That's 33EUR hardcover, 20EUR softcover.
Thanks. That's a little more useful than "wanna bet". So... post GHB, they come out first in hardcover at $40 and then eventually as softcover at $25? Is that correct? I know at least some of the post GHB Battletomes were hardback.
That would still make me think that the Codexes will be hardbacks costing $40 or more with maybe a $25 softback reprint at some point down the road. I think my $40-50 comment stands.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
Might be a bit confusing if you don't follow AoS, but of the ones he linked, the only ones higher than $40 were old, pre GHB ones.
All the ones that have come out post GHB (i.e. the new standard) are $40 hardcover, $25 softcover. That's 33EUR hardcover, 20EUR softcover.
Thanks. That's a little more useful than "wanna bet". So... post GHB, they come out first in hardcover at $40 and then eventually as softcover at $25? Is that correct? I know at least some of the post GHB Battletomes were hardback.
That would still make me think that the Codexes will be hardbacks costing $40 or more with maybe a $25 softback reprint at some point down the road. I think my $40-50 comment stands.
Yeah that pricing seems about right. I wouldn't expect any hardback books less than $40 unless it's a minor release (like MT was in 7th).
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
Might be a bit confusing if you don't follow AoS, but of the ones he linked, the only ones higher than $40 were old, pre GHB ones.
All the ones that have come out post GHB (i.e. the new standard) are $40 hardcover, $25 softcover. That's 33EUR hardcover, 20EUR softcover.
Thanks. That's a little more useful than "wanna bet". So... post GHB, they come out first in hardcover at $40 and then eventually as softcover at $25? Is that correct? I know at least some of the post GHB Battletomes were hardback.
That would still make me think that the Codexes will be hardbacks costing $40 or more with maybe a $25 softback reprint at some point down the road. I think my $40-50 comment stands.
How can your comment stand if the person you were responding to CAN reasonably expect 20 Euro codexes (even if he has to wait a month or two for the soft-cover to be released), and your comment explicitly states that "20 EUR is probably not a realistic expectation"?
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
Might be a bit confusing if you don't follow AoS, but of the ones he linked, the only ones higher than $40 were old, pre GHB ones.
All the ones that have come out post GHB (i.e. the new standard) are $40 hardcover, $25 softcover. That's 33EUR hardcover, 20EUR softcover.
Thanks. That's a little more useful than "wanna bet". So... post GHB, they come out first in hardcover at $40 and then eventually as softcover at $25? Is that correct? I know at least some of the post GHB Battletomes were hardback.
That would still make me think that the Codexes will be hardbacks costing $40 or more with maybe a $25 softback reprint at some point down the road. I think my $40-50 comment stands.
How can your comment stand if the person you were responding to CAN reasonably expect 20 Euro codexes (even if he has to wait a month or two for the soft-cover to be released), and your comment explicitly states that "20 EUR is probably not a realistic expectation"?
Um... Well... GW has told us that the Codexes will be hardback to match the hardback rules. Hardback Codexes and Battletomes very rarely sell for less than $40. The most reasonable expectation is that the new Codexes will cost $40+. Might we also expect that at some point in the future, the Codexes will be reprinted as softbacks for $25? Sure, maybe. But that's not likely to be a month or two. It's more likely to be down the road, probably at least 6-12 months or more, whenever the hardback Codexes have sold out.
So, 20EUR/25USD might be a realistic expectation if you're willing to just wait for however long it take to go from hardback initial release to softback reprint and simply not have up to date rules for your army in the meantime. If you want to have current rules, you should realistically expect to pay 40USD or so when the Codex is initially sold.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just saying that if you're budgeting for a new Codex release and you only put away 25USD, you're probably not going to be able to afford your Codex when it comes out. You'll have to instead wait until it's maybe eventually released as a softback. Most of those AOS Battletomes were released more than a month or two ago and are still priced at $40-50+.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
They have the will to do it, but you're right in that they'll be pushing just hardbacks until the initial run sells out and then they'll supplement with softback. So unless your army sells out you might be out of luck on that pricing.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
There are some more on the second page which are in the sub $40 range, however the majority are still $40 or over. I am doubtful that many of the Codices will be sub $40, especially for the main armies (e.g. Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Nids, Tau, IG etc.).
Also should note that of the 2 softcovers there, the more expensive 1 is the first of the new style (Sylvaneth) and the other (Disciples of Tzeentch) was released earlier this year before the Stormcast, Kharadon & Blades of Khorne books.
EDIT: That said, I feel Codex: Space Marines will be more expensive given it's going to be large - it was already a behemoth of a tome by codex standard before the Primaris and had a higher price tag then.
What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.
Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.
Might be a bit confusing if you don't follow AoS, but of the ones he linked, the only ones higher than $40 were old, pre GHB ones.
All the ones that have come out post GHB (i.e. the new standard) are $40 hardcover, $25 softcover. That's 33EUR hardcover, 20EUR softcover.
Thanks. That's a little more useful than "wanna bet". So... post GHB, they come out first in hardcover at $40 and then eventually as softcover at $25? Is that correct? I know at least some of the post GHB Battletomes were hardback.
That would still make me think that the Codexes will be hardbacks costing $40 or more with maybe a $25 softback reprint at some point down the road. I think my $40-50 comment stands.
How can your comment stand if the person you were responding to CAN reasonably expect 20 Euro codexes (even if he has to wait a month or two for the soft-cover to be released), and your comment explicitly states that "20 EUR is probably not a realistic expectation"?
Um... Well... GW has told us that the Codexes will be hardback to match the hardback rules. Hardback Codexes and Battletomes very rarely sell for less than $40. The most reasonable expectation is that the new Codexes will cost $40+. Might we also expect that at some point in the future, the Codexes will be reprinted as softbacks for $25? Sure, maybe. But that's not likely to be a month or two. It's more likely to be down the road, probably at least 6-12 months or more, whenever the hardback Codexes have sold out.
So, 20EUR/25USD might be a realistic expectation if you're willing to just wait for however long it take to go from hardback initial release to softback reprint and simply not have up to date rules for your army in the meantime. If you want to have current rules, you should realistically expect to pay 40USD or so when the Codex is initially sold.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just saying that if you're budgeting for a new Codex release and you only put away 25USD, you're probably not going to be able to afford your Codex when it comes out. You'll have to instead wait until it's maybe eventually released as a softback. Most of those AOS Battletomes were released more than a month or two ago and are still priced at $40-50+.
It's almost like they've been talking about a campaign that they're getting set to launch at the end of this month(July 27th) that takes place in a specific system and has a narrative of Death Guard and Chaos Marines assaulting an area where two factions(Grey Knights and Ultramarines) were known to be holed up.
aracersss wrote: not sure if this is confirmation ... but they may have leaked new DG vehicles or prob just customized
Spoiler:
Just looks like a Rhino with a hatch gunner on the DG side.
For the Marines the Repulsor looks like a big kit. The overall footprint seems to be close to the LR, and with the turret and hover stand its definitely taller.
aracersss wrote: not sure if this is confirmation ... but they may have leaked new DG vehicles or prob just customized
Spoiler:
Just looks like a Rhino with a hatch gunner on the DG side.
For the Marines the Repulsor looks like a big kit. The overall footprint seems to be close to the LR, and with the turret and hover stand its definitely taller.
Look above the Rhino in the "overall battlefield shot". It's parked in/on a piece of scenery.
Huh, I'd assumed it was half a wrecked Chimera next to the Rhino. But that bit about the Plagueburst Crawler definitely points to something new somewhere on the table taking shots at the SM tactical squad.
Maybe a artillery piece? chaos has always been short on Artillery and it almost looks like it might have a Mortar. I think a "whirlwind equivilant" would work nicely with DG.
Yeah that thing to the left of the DG rhino looks like it might actually be something new, cause I can see the mortar launcher on top which matches the art.
DarkStarSabre wrote: I wish we'd stop circling that bloody Rhino as though it were new.
It's not. It;s a Rhino with a FW Death Guard upgrade torso on the gunner hatch.
But it is.
GW wouldn't use a Forge-world kit in their starter book.
DarkStarSabre wrote: I wish we'd stop circling that bloody Rhino as though it were new.
It's not. It;s a Rhino with a FW Death Guard upgrade torso on the gunner hatch.
But it is.
GW wouldn't use a Forge-world kit in their starter book.
They're using conversion in there. Remember the battle reports in the old rulebooks when one of the armies was using older models and not the new shinies?
That Rhino isn't new. That's a FW upgrade torso on a standard Rhino kit. There's only so much ignorance that can be tolerated. Want to see the torso in question? I'm pretty sure myself or any other DG player can fish out an example from our own army or just show you it on the FW site. And GW have used FW bits in their armies before - Blood Angels and Space Wolves have FW doors on their tanks in the studio armies. Why? Because FW is a sister company. Why not?
Kanluwen wrote: It's almost like they've been talking about a campaign that they're getting set to launch at the end of this month(July 27th) that takes place in a specific system and has a narrative of Death Guard and Chaos Marines assaulting an area where two factions(Grey Knights and Ultramarines) were known to be holed up.
And that campaign had to take place in that system and feature those armies. Couldn't have taken place in literally any other part of the galaxy, couldn't have featured any of the other dozen factions in 40k...
You're making it sound like the campaign locked them into updating things this way, instead of the campaign simply being a marketing tool to support all the new kits and armies that were going to be updated first anyway, which is what it is.
Anyway, Reece from FLG said GW plans on releasing 10 40k codices this year alone? With the year more than halfway over already? They'd have to be releasing 2 every month. They must be small releases then, I don't see them keeping that kind of pace and still releasing new kits to go with it.
I have mixed feeling about the whole index/codex issue, on the one hand I really do see all the issues with the system they have made. But on the other hand I've always wanted to see all of chaos together in a book and all of the marines and so on, so these indexes sound great. But I also love the small codicies, freeing gw up to look at niche armies like gsc and hopefully sisters of battle getting their own books is fantastic, and I'd love to see each of the traitor legions get their own book and models! And it also seems stupid for a space wolf player to have to have all of the other marines in his book. So frankly this combination of the indicies and codicies seems pretty perfect to me, although I will freely admit that things being different between them and getting invalidated is an issue but I'm sure it all seems worst right now as we haven't settled into it yet. Given a year, once almost all armies have a codex I imagine it will be an elegant system (provided the indexes and codicies remain consistent). I'm sure a lot of these issues are just settling issues with all the hänge at the moment
Kanluwen wrote: It's almost like they've been talking about a campaign that they're getting set to launch at the end of this month(July 27th) that takes place in a specific system and has a narrative of Death Guard and Chaos Marines assaulting an area where two factions(Grey Knights and Ultramarines) were known to be holed up.
Kanluwen wrote: It's almost like they've been talking about a campaign that they're getting set to launch at the end of this month(July 27th) that takes place in a specific system and has a narrative of Death Guard and Chaos Marines assaulting an area where two factions(Grey Knights and Ultramarines) were known to be holed up.
Yeah it's kind of a dumb decision.
Alright? why? Space Marines are the most popular best selling army, YOU might not like them, but those are the facts, putting out something for them at the dawn of a enw edition is proably a good thing, it excites the most people (partiuclarly as these are gonna be avaliable for specialty chapters too) and will.. possiably spark an arms race with the other armies once they get new toys. the attention to Chaos is exactly what they need to do. given they're supposed to be such a prominant threat. but people aren't feeling it (For me, Tyranids have been feeling like a bigger threat then Chaos until recently)
a big IoM vs Chaos Campaign isn't a dumb idea.
Now, do I think they should do other campaigns that aren't Marine centric in the future? absolutely! Hell I'd LOOOVE to see sisters finally get an update and us have a campaign where the sisters of battle lead a crusade against Orks or something.
I don't play Orks or sisters, but I'd love to see it.
Kanluwen wrote: It's almost like they've been talking about a campaign that they're getting set to launch at the end of this month(July 27th) that takes place in a specific system and has a narrative of Death Guard and Chaos Marines assaulting an area where two factions(Grey Knights and Ultramarines) were known to be holed up.
Yeah it's kind of a dumb decision.
Alright? why?
Because Games Workshop has ultimate and absolute control over their lore. They don't NEED to limit the battles in their upcoming campaigns to ONLY marines vs marines. They CHOSE to. So everyone else gets left out. Again.
This isn't Imperium of Man vs Chaos. This is Space Marines vs Space Marines.
Kanluwen wrote: It's almost like they've been talking about a campaign that they're getting set to launch at the end of this month(July 27th) that takes place in a specific system and has a narrative of Death Guard and Chaos Marines assaulting an area where two factions(Grey Knights and Ultramarines) were known to be holed up.
Yeah it's kind of a dumb decision.
Alright? why?
Because Games Workshop has ultimate and absolute control over their lore. They don't NEED to limit the battles in their upcoming campaigns to ONLY marines vs marines. They CHOSE to. So everyone else gets left out. Again.
This isn't Imperium of Man vs Chaos. This is Space Marines vs Space Marines.
Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
BrianDavion wrote: Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
Whoever said I blamed the local store? Oh wait you did because your only response to my argument was to be dishonest.
BrianDavion wrote: Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
Whoever said I blamed the local store? Oh wait you did because your only response to my argument was to be dishonest.
I know you weren't blaming your local store, my point is this campaign is open to anyone. so no one's being "left out"
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aracersss wrote: let's not turn this thread into a debate and draw attention to the mods ...
Melissia wrote: Because Games Workshop has ultimate and absolute control over their lore. They don't NEED to limit the battles in their upcoming campaigns to ONLY marines vs marines. They CHOSE to. So everyone else gets left out. Again.
This isn't Imperium of Man vs Chaos. This is Space Marines vs Space Marines.
Alright so if it was demons vs space marines is wouldn't be an issue? I'm a bit confused, as demons have gotten as much or more attention than CSM have the past few years. Honestly, outside tyranids and orcs CSM were the third most joke of a faction for years now. So forgive me if I find whining about CSM getting a spotlight in campaign and release schedule a bit annoying. Yes, we get it you lump every single marine army together, even if it makes no sense.
Anyways, I'm curious how the ratio of codex+new models vs just codex will break down. Astartes and deathguard obviously both are getting new models, I'm interested if anyone else is getting them, or if it'll be just rules till Christmas.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am excited for the CSM codex. I just hope they don't nerf anything we currently already have... >_<
I'm expecting minimal changes on stuff in the indexes, clarification of rules, changes of points (anything drasticly over or under pointed will be fixed)
I wouldn't think so. The CSM codex was probably sent to the printer months ago. There probably hasn't been much play testing between the time the indexes were set and this codex was. I doubt GW knew back then what the broken stuff was. They are only now getting an inkling. I doubt any codex in 2017 (or at least for a few months) will have point values fixed based upon what we know now.
But... they sent the Chaos Index to the printers a few months before it was released, and likely before the guys from FLG had a chance to playtest it. Theoretically, it could include rules changes owing to playtesting.
I am excited about the CSM Codex for the simple reason that it means I don't need to carry around 5 different books to play a game anymore. Imperial Armor 13, Traitor's Hate, and Traitor Legions are all now things of the past.
Here's hoping they never go there again. Had more books than I had models in some games.
Kanluwen wrote: It's almost like they've been talking about a campaign that they're getting set to launch at the end of this month(July 27th) that takes place in a specific system and has a narrative of Death Guard and Chaos Marines assaulting an area where two factions(Grey Knights and Ultramarines) were known to be holed up.
And that campaign had to take place in that system and feature those armies. Couldn't have taken place in literally any other part of the galaxy, couldn't have featured any of the other dozen factions in 40k...
You're making it sound like the campaign locked them into updating things this way, instead of the campaign simply being a marketing tool to support all the new kits and armies that were going to be updated first anyway, which is what it is.
Just saying that it is what it is. They chose to do things this way, likely because as they did with Age of Sigmar's campaign last year(Realm of Life) they've built up story stuff to go in with the model releases.
Anyway, Reece from FLG said GW plans on releasing 10 40k codices this year alone? With the year more than halfway over already? They'd have to be releasing 2 every month. They must be small releases then, I don't see them keeping that kind of pace and still releasing new kits to go with it.
GW did an announcement and an FAQ to go with it. They intend on having 10 40k codices out by Christmas. Death Guard, Grey Knights, Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines are the first ones to get released.
To answer the kit part:
Is every army getting new models too?
Some of them. Certain armies will get new miniatures alongside their new codex, and others won’t. Don’t worry though, our miniatures designers are working hard and we’ll get to all of you eventually – we’re well aware you all want new models for your chosen army.
Kanluwen wrote: It's almost like they've been talking about a campaign that they're getting set to launch at the end of this month(July 27th) that takes place in a specific system and has a narrative of Death Guard and Chaos Marines assaulting an area where two factions(Grey Knights and Ultramarines) were known to be holed up.
Yeah it's kind of a dumb decision.
Alright? why?
Because Games Workshop has ultimate and absolute control over their lore. They don't NEED to limit the battles in their upcoming campaigns to ONLY marines vs marines. They CHOSE to. So everyone else gets left out. Again.
This isn't Imperium of Man vs Chaos. This is Space Marines vs Space Marines.
Except they've kinda/sorta talked about the way this is going to work and yeah it is Imperium of Man vs Chaos. They made a point of talking about that it's not just Guilliman and his Primaris and the Ultramarines holding the system. The Guard, Inquisition, everyone has some sort of presence there. Because this is seemingly following Guillman breaking Mortarion's siege of the system and Mortarion getting ready for a rematch.
Xenos wins will, apparently, count against whoever is doing better at that point in time.
Yeah, I can't imagine many people being happy about their index needing to be replaced already. It's barely been a month. And you know the codices will cost at least twice as much, too.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, I can't imagine many people being happy about their index needing to be replaced already. It's barely been a month. And you know the codices will cost at least twice as much, too.
Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Deathwatch Players are sitting shiny, like everyone else.
Vanilla Marine players should have seen it coming. The Space Marine codex is always the first codex, they said they would churn out codexes right away, and Marine and Chaos Marine Codexes were rumore for July Release, before 8E even dropped.
It will be like AOS where some factions get books with full releases and some get books with no/minor repacks (Beastclaw Raiders, Flesheaters, Bonesplittaz). I would strongly wager Grey Knights would not get any model releases. In fact I doubt any of the impending Loyalist Space Marine variants will get releases. They just aren't necessary.
In AOS those books I mentioned are actually well liked because they felt creative and fresh despite featuring old models. I hope we see the same approach with the 40k equivalents.
Umbros wrote: It will be like AOS where some factions get books with full releases and some get books with no/minor repacks (Beastclaw Raiders, Flesheaters, Bonesplittaz). I would strongly wager Grey Knights would not get any model releases. In fact I doubt any of the impending Loyalist Space Marine variants will get releases. They just aren't necessary.
In AOS those books I mentioned are actually well liked because they felt creative and fresh despite featuring old models. I hope we see the same approach with the 40k equivalents.
Grey Knights could use some new stuff though, that said I doubt they'll get much, they might however get "Grey Knight" variation rules for Primaris Marines
BrianDavion wrote: Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
Whoever said I blamed the local store? Oh wait you did because your only response to my argument was to be dishonest.
I know you weren't blaming your local store, my point is this campaign is open to anyone. so no one's being "left out"
Non space marines players are pretty much left out of a marine vs marine campaign.
Melissia wrote: This isn't Imperium of Man vs Chaos. This is Space Marines vs Space Marines.
Exactly. Why people seem to perpetually confuse the two is beyond me. Do they forget about the existence of AM (Astra Militarum), the other AM (Adeptus Mechanicus), the third AM (Adeptus Ministorum), the fourth… wait no, there isn't any more AM I guess, the Inquisition, the Assassins, the Tempestus, the Lost and Damned, the daemons, the mutants, …
SilverAlien wrote: Yes, we get it you lump every single marine army together, even if it makes no sense.
A space marine is a space marine is a space marine.
Umbros wrote: It will be like AOS where some factions get books with full releases and some get books with no/minor repacks (Beastclaw Raiders, Flesheaters, Bonesplittaz). I would strongly wager Grey Knights would not get any model releases. In fact I doubt any of the impending Loyalist Space Marine variants will get releases. They just aren't necessary.
In AOS those books I mentioned are actually well liked because they felt creative and fresh despite featuring old models. I hope we see the same approach with the 40k equivalents.
Grey Knights could use some new stuff though, that said I doubt they'll get much, they might however get "Grey Knight" variation rules for Primaris Marines
And this is why we get crap like Baby Carriers and Santa Sleighs because GW keep shoveling them into to the Snowflake Chapters, giving them powerful rules and ignoring other factions - I wonder why they sell well..
My Space Wolves did not need this nonsense and nor did my Grey Knights.
Umbros wrote: It will be like AOS where some factions get books with full releases and some get books with no/minor repacks (Beastclaw Raiders, Flesheaters, Bonesplittaz). I would strongly wager Grey Knights would not get any model releases. In fact I doubt any of the impending Loyalist Space Marine variants will get releases. They just aren't necessary.
In AOS those books I mentioned are actually well liked because they felt creative and fresh despite featuring old models. I hope we see the same approach with the 40k equivalents.
Grey Knights could use some new stuff though, that said I doubt they'll get much, they might however get "Grey Knight" variation rules for Primaris Marines
And this is why we get crap like Baby Carriers and Santa Sleighs because GW keep shoveling them into to the Snowflake Chapters, giving them powerful rules and ignoring other factions - I wonder why they sell well..
My Space Wolves did not need this nonsense and nor did my Grey Knights.
rules for Primaris Marines with GK abilities is special snowflake crap? we're talking something like an inceptor squad with psykic powers
BrianDavion wrote: Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
Whoever said I blamed the local store? Oh wait you did because your only response to my argument was to be dishonest.
I know you weren't blaming your local store, my point is this campaign is open to anyone. so no one's being "left out"
Non space marines players are pretty much left out of a marine vs marine campaign.
true and it was dissappointing when GW said only space marines and chaos marines could particpate in the Kronor campaign. ohh wait they never said that
BrianDavion wrote: Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
Whoever said I blamed the local store? Oh wait you did because your only response to my argument was to be dishonest.
I know you weren't blaming your local store, my point is this campaign is open to anyone. so no one's being "left out"
Non space marines players are pretty much left out of a marine vs marine campaign.
true and it was dissappointing when GW said only space marines and chaos marines could particpate in the Kronor campaign. ohh wait they never said that
But they have made it clear Xeno's players will have almost no impact on the outcome of the campaign, being unable to contribute to either side really. It's a pathetic sop and whether my Eldar or Nids play or not will make no difference at all to things.
BrianDavion wrote: Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
Whoever said I blamed the local store? Oh wait you did because your only response to my argument was to be dishonest.
I know you weren't blaming your local store, my point is this campaign is open to anyone. so no one's being "left out"
Non space marines players are pretty much left out of a marine vs marine campaign.
true and it was dissappointing when GW said only space marines and chaos marines could particpate in the Kronor campaign. ohh wait they never said that
But they have made it clear Xeno's players will have almost no impact on the outcome of the campaign, being unable to contribute to either side really. It's a pathetic sop and whether my Eldar or Nids play or not will make no difference at all to things.
Actually, they said that xenos can contribute by either lowering Imperial or Chaos score with their victories. So basically, Xenos gets to screw over the other factions for not inviting them to the party.
BrianDavion wrote: Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
Whoever said I blamed the local store? Oh wait you did because your only response to my argument was to be dishonest.
I know you weren't blaming your local store, my point is this campaign is open to anyone. so no one's being "left out"
Non space marines players are pretty much left out of a marine vs marine campaign.
true and it was dissappointing when GW said only space marines and chaos marines could particpate in the Kronor campaign. ohh wait they never said that
But they have made it clear Xeno's players will have almost no impact on the outcome of the campaign, being unable to contribute to either side really. It's a pathetic sop and whether my Eldar or Nids play or not will make no difference at all to things.
Yeap I'm still not convinced Xenos aren't getting unofficially kicked out of the game like sisters where they just drop support then slowly phase the range out over time. Even if we do get updates it feels like we are a lot less relevant to anything this edition and a clear after thought. I'm still not sure if I want to keep playing 40k at all since I'm a big xenos fan and it looks clear there isn't much room for us now days with the whole primarch craze going on. It's basically 30k mk2 at this point.
We get to take away victories, but it is still not us narrative in the event doing it. It's just a meta game with no consequences to us. Why should we care. Why should I narratively give a gak about the IoM when every day I hear how Tau should be removed from the game by rabid annoying IoM fans? I don't even know if I want to build my Deathwatch army up anymore since the fan base is absolutely toxic and cringe to the point I don't want to associate with marine players anymore.
I know me and my local xenos are going to be taking away all our wins from IoM. To think I would ever enjoy chaos more than the IoM seems almost unthinkable to me, but I think they'll be better neighbours at this point.
Gamgee wrote: Yeap I'm still not convinced Xenos aren't getting unofficially kicked out of the game like sisters where they just drop support then slowly phase the range out over time.
1. A campaign that just happens to use the first four Codex releases. 2. Primaris Marines.
I mean GW has shown 0 levels of sentimentality when it comes to destroying their legacy so they can slap a ™ after something, but to phase out all the Xenos races of 40K? Come on...
BrianDavion wrote: Really? you're being left out? man what dick at the local store won't let you take part in the campaign? ohh wait that's not whats happening at all.
Whoever said I blamed the local store? Oh wait you did because your only response to my argument was to be dishonest.
I know you weren't blaming your local store, my point is this campaign is open to anyone. so no one's being "left out"
Non space marines players are pretty much left out of a marine vs marine campaign.
true and it was dissappointing when GW said only space marines and chaos marines could particpate in the Kronor campaign. ohh wait they never said that
But they have made it clear Xeno's players will have almost no impact on the outcome of the campaign, being unable to contribute to either side really. It's a pathetic sop and whether my Eldar or Nids play or not will make no difference at all to things.
Yeap I'm still not convinced Xenos aren't getting unofficially kicked out of the game like sisters where they just drop support then slowly phase the range out over time. Even if we do get updates it feels like we are a lot less relevant to anything this edition and a clear after thought. I'm still not sure if I want to keep playing 40k at all since I'm a big xenos fan and it looks clear there isn't much room for us now days with the whole primarch craze going on. It's basically 30k mk2 at this point.
We get to take away victories, but it is still not us narrative in the event doing it. It's just a meta game with no consequences to us. Why should we care. Why should I narratively give a gak about the IoM when every day I hear how Tau should be removed from the game by rabid annoying IoM fans? I don't even know if I want to build my Deathwatch army up anymore since the fan base is absolutely toxic and cringe to the point I don't want to associate with marine players anymore.
I know me and my local xenos are going to be taking away all our wins from IoM. To think I would ever enjoy chaos more than the IoM seems almost unthinkable to me, but I think they'll be better neighbours at this point.
If you think the Xenos armies are getting removed you are a fool. Xenos players can contribute to either side of the campaign. Yes, it isn't centred around them. This is just the start of the new edition. Some of the whining is incredible.
Despite the fact that I've often been right more than wrong? Granted I will personally say this one is a little out there even for me. Games Workshop is a company first and it wants to make as much money as it can. it doesn't give a rats ass about you or anything else. If they can find a way to make more money and if ti requires destroy everything that is here they will do it no questions asked. Old marines are effectively dead and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. They aren't going to make new kits for an old army when they can milk everyone all over again for a new marine range. If even the old marines aren't safe nothing is.
It's not totally outside the possibility with how well 30k sells they got the idea to turn 40k more into that direction since it sells. Games Workshop is a company and is no ones friend no matter how much PR they hire to act like it.
Wow so gamesworkshop start a campaign that pits chaos vs space marines (shocker) right after the release of a new edition with the upcoming releases of codexes for the armies involved and the sky is already falling for people and games workshop are cutting out all of the xenos races, Jeeze guys!
As an eldar player I'm happy that gamesworkshop are quickfiring some releases for my favourite table top game even if I don't play those armies and not only promoting it but are doing it through community involvement in the form of a campaign, I for one will wait my turn for a release and over that period there might be four codexes released with a campaign that pits iyanden against Tyranids or something, people need to chill.
Part of me wants to say the Indexes should have been free. The other part of me says I spent an extra $25 to play the new edition, and I enjoy playing it.
I will reserve my rage for when I see the price point of the Codex itself. If it's $60, I will write a strongly worded / slightly sarcastic post on this forum, then get over it.
Other than that... GW is a public company and decisions around when to release stuff is usually based on the need to spread out revenue over the course of a year. It's capitalism and marketing, not some scheme to endorse one army over another.
Mantle wrote: Wow so gamesworkshop start a campaign that pits chaos vs space marines (shocker) right after the release of a new edition with the upcoming releases of codexes for the armies involved and the sky is already falling for people and games workshop are cutting out all of the xenos races, Jeeze guys!
As an eldar player I'm happy that gamesworkshop are quickfiring some releases for my favourite table top game even if I don't play those armies and not only promoting it but are doing it through community involvement in the form of a campaign, I for one will wait my turn for a release and over that period there might be four codexes released with a campaign that pits iyanden against Tyranids or something, people need to chill.
Ugh, Gamgee's idiotic fantasies are hurting the point I was making. This campaign is juts the most recent thing, but over the last 2 years the only major Xenos releases have been Genestealer Cults and the 7th ed Tau codex, almost everything else in that time has been in power armour. I'm not complaining that the codexes are coming thick and fast, it's exactly what was expected because GW said so months ago when 8th was announced, it's the fact that the first 4 are all in Power Armour, and I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few of the remaining 6 codexes for this year could well be in Power Armour as well. By the time the first Xenos codex comes out for this edition it'll almost certainly be over a year since the last big Xenos release (GSC was October last year) and more than 2 since the one before it (Tau). Anybody that thinks the global campaign is actually inclusive for Xenos players has no idea what they are talking about. A friend of mine will be starting a campaign soon and in a narrative sense I'll actually get to play for something with that one, far more satisfying than the rubbish GW is forcing on us.
Whilst I in no way believe the rubbish that GW will squat Xenos factions, the last couple of years have taken a pretty hefty hammer to any kind of variety in the release schedule. The one silver lining is talk that next year could be much more focused on Xenos factions, the downside is that I think it was Gamgee who mentioned that, so the chances of it happening are slim to none.
Mantle wrote: Wow so gamesworkshop start a campaign that pits chaos vs space marines (shocker) right after the release of a new edition with the upcoming releases of codexes for the armies involved and the sky is already falling for people and games workshop are cutting out all of the xenos races, Jeeze guys!
As an eldar player I'm happy that gamesworkshop are quickfiring some releases for my favourite table top game even if I don't play those armies and not only promoting it but are doing it through community involvement in the form of a campaign, I for one will wait my turn for a release and over that period there might be four codexes released with a campaign that pits iyanden against Tyranids or something, people need to chill.
Ugh, Gamgee's idiotic fantasies are hurting the point I was making. This campaign is juts the most recent thing, but over the last 2 years the only major Xenos releases have been Genestealer Cults and the 7th ed Tau codex, almost everything else in that time has been in power armour. I'm not complaining that the codexes are coming thick and fast, it's exactly what was expected because GW said so months ago when 8th was announced, it's the fact that the first 4 are all in Power Armour, and I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few of the remaining 6 codexes for this year could well be in Power Armour as well. By the time the first Xenos codex comes out for this edition it'll almost certainly be over a year since the last big Xenos release (GSC was October last year) and more than 2 since the one before it (Tau). Anybody that thinks the global campaign is actually inclusive for Xenos players has no idea what they are talking about. A friend of mine will be starting a campaign soon and in a narrative sense I'll actually get to play for something with that one, far more satisfying than the rubbish GW is forcing on us.
Whilst I in no way believe the rubbish that GW will squat Xenos factions, the last couple of years have taken a pretty hefty hammer to any kind of variety in the release schedule. The one silver lining is talk that next year could be much more focused on Xenos factions, the downside is that I think it was Gamgee who mentioned that, so the chances of it happening are slim to none.
Okay, a question: what constitutes a major release? Because if say fall of cadia and the new rules and HQ for ecclesiarchy and admech as well as the Fracture of Biel-Tan and the ynarri don't qualify, then the issue is more we haven't had many major releases period. I mean, are we going to count angels of death if we don't count the others? What's the logic, because there were new units that weren't named HQ's?
Ynnari certainly qualifies, but Fall of Cadia's "new rules and hq for ecclesiarchy" wasn't really anything new at all. The only unit that got a dramatic rules change and a new model was Celestine, which is hardly a "major release". Everything else was almost exactly the same it had been for over a decade (and, in some cases, for two decades)
I never said squatted. I said SoB'ed which is a very different thing than straight up squatting.
To be SOB'ed is to have your line intact, but very slowly over the course of years support slowly dries up and they never make more models or if they do it could be extreme amounts of time. Your models may have rules, but your support will be token at best and they technically can be played.
Companies try and sell people on things they don't want all the time. A slow gradual death is more easy for people to cope with since it's harder for them to measure. It also gives them the faint sense of possibility that maybe they are just around the corner, but never really are.
Lady Atia herself has said the Tau are getting something that is not directly part of the Tau Empire on her blog, but I'm very hesitant to see what it is now.
Idiotic fantasies? I was worried about stuff happening to Xenos way before this was even announced. I was so hyped for the rumoured global campaign and then they kick us in the nuts.
Lady Atia herself has only said stuff about Tau (to my recollection) it's other less reliable rumor people who have talked about xenos at all.
GW themselves has said nothing except that 8th will focus more on IoM and Chaos for the first year, but I don't expect that will change when there are a million primarchs and an emperor reborn model they need to sell. Then a horus reborn model ect. What next the chaos gods themselves? At this point there doesn't even feel like a point for deathwatch lol.
Mantle wrote: Wow so gamesworkshop start a campaign that pits chaos vs space marines (shocker) right after the release of a new edition with the upcoming releases of codexes for the armies involved and the sky is already falling for people and games workshop are cutting out all of the xenos races, Jeeze guys! As an eldar player I'm happy that gamesworkshop are quickfiring some releases for my favourite table top game even if I don't play those armies and not only promoting it but are doing it through community involvement in the form of a campaign, I for one will wait my turn for a release and over that period there might be four codexes released with a campaign that pits iyanden against Tyranids or something, people need to chill.
Ugh, Gamgee's idiotic fantasies are hurting the point I was making. This campaign is juts the most recent thing, but over the last 2 years the only major Xenos releases have been Genestealer Cults and the 7th ed Tau codex, almost everything else in that time has been in power armour. I'm not complaining that the codexes are coming thick and fast, it's exactly what was expected because GW said so months ago when 8th was announced, it's the fact that the first 4 are all in Power Armour, and I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few of the remaining 6 codexes for this year could well be in Power Armour as well. By the time the first Xenos codex comes out for this edition it'll almost certainly be over a year since the last big Xenos release (GSC was October last year) and more than 2 since the one before it (Tau). Anybody that thinks the global campaign is actually inclusive for Xenos players has no idea what they are talking about. A friend of mine will be starting a campaign soon and in a narrative sense I'll actually get to play for something with that one, far more satisfying than the rubbish GW is forcing on us.
Whilst I in no way believe the rubbish that GW will squat Xenos factions, the last couple of years have taken a pretty hefty hammer to any kind of variety in the release schedule. The one silver lining is talk that next year could be much more focused on Xenos factions, the downside is that I think it was Gamgee who mentioned that, so the chances of it happening are slim to none.
So, you might not consider it a major relase, but as an Eldar player who loves all 3 of the factions, the Ynnari release was enormous and frickin' amazing for me. That being said, I do wish the other xenos got more love. My 'nid-playing buddy has been desperate for add-ons.
I find it funny that the release of a single model is considered a "major release". Ironically, it's actually true, for Sisters who never get anything new.
Melissia wrote: I find it funny that the release of a single model is considered a "major release". Ironically, it's actually true, for Sisters who never get anything new.
I was so hyped to see a rebooted sisters too and then nothing. What a troll.
Melissia wrote: I find it funny that the release of a single model is considered a "major release". Ironically, it's actually true, for Sisters who never get anything new.
I was so hyped to see a rebooted sisters too and then nothing. What a troll.
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Mantle wrote: Wow so gamesworkshop start a campaign that pits chaos vs space marines (shocker) right after the release of a new edition with the upcoming releases of codexes for the armies involved and the sky is already falling for people and games workshop are cutting out all of the xenos races, Jeeze guys!
As an eldar player I'm happy that gamesworkshop are quickfiring some releases for my favourite table top game even if I don't play those armies and not only promoting it but are doing it through community involvement in the form of a campaign, I for one will wait my turn for a release and over that period there might be four codexes released with a campaign that pits iyanden against Tyranids or something, people need to chill.
Ugh, Gamgee's idiotic fantasies are hurting the point I was making. This campaign is juts the most recent thing, but over the last 2 years the only major Xenos releases have been Genestealer Cults and the 7th ed Tau codex, almost everything else in that time has been in power armour. I'm not complaining that the codexes are coming thick and fast, it's exactly what was expected because GW said so months ago when 8th was announced, it's the fact that the first 4 are all in Power Armour, and I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few of the remaining 6 codexes for this year could well be in Power Armour as well. By the time the first Xenos codex comes out for this edition it'll almost certainly be over a year since the last big Xenos release (GSC was October last year) and more than 2 since the one before it (Tau). Anybody that thinks the global campaign is actually inclusive for Xenos players has no idea what they are talking about. A friend of mine will be starting a campaign soon and in a narrative sense I'll actually get to play for something with that one, far more satisfying than the rubbish GW is forcing on us.
Whilst I in no way believe the rubbish that GW will squat Xenos factions, the last couple of years have taken a pretty hefty hammer to any kind of variety in the release schedule. The one silver lining is talk that next year could be much more focused on Xenos factions, the downside is that I think it was Gamgee who mentioned that, so the chances of it happening are slim to none.
Okay, a question: what constitutes a major release? Because if say fall of cadia and the new rules and HQ for ecclesiarchy and admech as well as the Fracture of Biel-Tan and the ynarri don't qualify, then the issue is more we haven't had many major releases period. I mean, are we going to count angels of death if we don't count the others? What's the logic, because there were new units that weren't named HQ's?
I don't as each book had a grand total of 3 models to come with it, but if you do thats still 5 out of 9 models in Power Armour or some varient there of.
I would also agree with there being a shortage of releases. Sad Panda mentioned over a year ago that 8th edition was being worked on which was why we hadn't had any codex updates after Tau and was why, other than Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult, that we only got campaign books.
However, Ynnari was basically a whole new army list, or at the very least, a whole new way to play two already existing armies. The Triad didn't make anywhere near the same impact; they were, at best, strong characters that Imperial armies could take.
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Seeing as how several parts of the sculptor's converted army have ended up in the finished designs he did, would it really matter if it isn't legit or not model-wise?
The text explicitly calls it out as a "Plagueburst Crawler". That's not in anything I've come across yet.
Mantle wrote: Wow so gamesworkshop start a campaign that pits chaos vs space marines (shocker) right after the release of a new edition with the upcoming releases of codexes for the armies involved and the sky is already falling for people and games workshop are cutting out all of the xenos races, Jeeze guys!
As an eldar player I'm happy that gamesworkshop are quickfiring some releases for my favourite table top game even if I don't play those armies and not only promoting it but are doing it through community involvement in the form of a campaign, I for one will wait my turn for a release and over that period there might be four codexes released with a campaign that pits iyanden against Tyranids or something, people need to chill.
Ugh, Gamgee's idiotic fantasies are hurting the point I was making. This campaign is juts the most recent thing, but over the last 2 years the only major Xenos releases have been Genestealer Cults and the 7th ed Tau codex, almost everything else in that time has been in power armour. I'm not complaining that the codexes are coming thick and fast, it's exactly what was expected because GW said so months ago when 8th was announced, it's the fact that the first 4 are all in Power Armour, and I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few of the remaining 6 codexes for this year could well be in Power Armour as well. By the time the first Xenos codex comes out for this edition it'll almost certainly be over a year since the last big Xenos release (GSC was October last year) and more than 2 since the one before it (Tau). Anybody that thinks the global campaign is actually inclusive for Xenos players has no idea what they are talking about. A friend of mine will be starting a campaign soon and in a narrative sense I'll actually get to play for something with that one, far more satisfying than the rubbish GW is forcing on us.
Whilst I in no way believe the rubbish that GW will squat Xenos factions, the last couple of years have taken a pretty hefty hammer to any kind of variety in the release schedule. The one silver lining is talk that next year could be much more focused on Xenos factions, the downside is that I think it was Gamgee who mentioned that, so the chances of it happening are slim to none.
So, you might not consider it a major relase, but as an Eldar player who loves all 3 of the factions, the Ynnari release was enormous and frickin' amazing for me. That being said, I do wish the other xenos got more love. My 'nid-playing buddy has been desperate for add-ons.
I both loved and hated the Ynnari release, it's was good to get at least something and the Yncarn was a great addition to my Dark Eldar, but Strength from Death was absolutely bonkers. At the same time, it doesn't feel like a proper army, I want to see new troop units specifically for the Reborn Warhost rather than the ad-hoc pick and mix from 3 other factions.
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Nice now I can unsee the wrecked half Chimera Looks like an actual tank and not a demon engine like the Blight drone. Interesting vaguely slug shape. Kinda appropriate for a Nurgle force.
The chassis has an interesting shape. Doesn't look like the other vehicles. I doubt its a conversion, because that would require 3rd party materials, and GW would not think of doing that.
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Seeing as how several parts of the sculptor's converted army have ended up in the finished designs he did, would it really matter if it isn't legit or not model-wise?
The text explicitly calls it out as a "Plagueburst Crawler". That's not in anything I've come across yet.
I don't doubt that this is a new thing for the DG, but no it wouldn't make much a difference. Only thing is the details would be slightly different in the finished CAD sculpted version. It does slightly differ from the artwork anyways.
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Vindicator replacement? Looks a bit larger than the Rhino.
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Vindicator replacement? Looks a bit larger than the Rhino.
I dunno, given the obvious Mortar on it, I'm gonna guess it's a indirect firesupport unit. basicly a "chaos whirlwind analogue"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: I never said squatted. I said SoB'ed which is a very different thing than straight up squatting.
To be SOB'ed is to have your line intact, but very slowly over the course of years support slowly dries up and they never make more models or if they do it could be extreme amounts of time. Your models may have rules, but your support will be token at best and they technically can be played.
Companies try and sell people on things they don't want all the time. A slow gradual death is more easy for people to cope with since it's harder for them to measure. It also gives them the faint sense of possibility that maybe they are just around the corner, but never really are.
Lady Atia herself has said the Tau are getting something that is not directly part of the Tau Empire on her blog, but I'm very hesitant to see what it is now.
Idiotic fantasies? I was worried about stuff happening to Xenos way before this was even announced. I was so hyped for the rumoured global campaign and then they kick us in the nuts.
Lady Atia herself has only said stuff about Tau (to my recollection) it's other less reliable rumor people who have talked about xenos at all.
GW themselves has said nothing except that 8th will focus more on IoM and Chaos for the first year, but I don't expect that will change when there are a million primarchs and an emperor reborn model they need to sell. Then a horus reborn model ect. What next the chaos gods themselves? At this point there doesn't even feel like a point for deathwatch lol.
except we know it's not going to be JUST chaos and marine codices this year. the announcement specificly says eldar craftworld and necron dynesty rules. I may be reading more into this but I see that as high likelyhood that the eldar and necrons are going to be in the first batch of 10 books.
As for the Global Campaign being Chaos vs IOM with Xenos races acting as spoilers, that's hardly anything new (remember the old eye of terror campaign?) the 40k narritive basicly boils down to the IoM fighting chaos with the xenos races acting as spoilers.
thing is, if the Tau are getting stuff I can't imagine the other Xenos races aren't. the Tau would be the easiest to squat given the bloody tau empire is a few hundred worlds in a small corner of the galaxy, whom lack high speed Warp Drives, and thus are stuck in said small corner of the galaxy. I've ranted on that one before though, horriable design, and if I was ever put in charge of 40k, that'd be one of the first things I'd fix, via a new member race or outright retcon. the Tau, from a narritive POV, NEED to be a intergalatic race. otherwise, you shrink the setting, if you ever wanna include every race
AduroT wrote: Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?
I agree i think GW did a good job on the indexes. I am happy that codices on the way all ready. Hopefully we see Tyranids Necrons or Eldar in before Christmas.
AduroT wrote: How long is this Marines vs Chaos campaign? Is it short enough there might be a campaign/event every other month that lines up with product releases?
10 Codexes by Christmas means 2 per month, so 2 months total for all 4 announced codexes. Nothing else until September.
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Vindicator replacement? Looks a bit larger than the Rhino.
I dunno, given the obvious Mortar on it, I'm gonna guess it's a indirect firesupport unit. basicly a "chaos whirlwind analogue"
I would imagine it'll have more of a direct fire support role, as it has sponsons as well (not much use when you're behind a mountain ) I wonder what its' dual kit option will be.
techsoldaten wrote: Part of me wants to say the Indexes should have been free. The other part of me says I spent an extra $25 to play the new edition, and I enjoy playing it.
I will reserve my rage for when I see the price point of the Codex itself. If it's $60, I will write a strongly worded / slightly sarcastic post on this forum, then get over it.
Other than that... GW is a public company and decisions around when to release stuff is usually based on the need to spread out revenue over the course of a year. It's capitalism and marketing, not some scheme to endorse one army over another.
This is everything I was thinking as well. I'm just going to watch how it all shakes up, complain if need be and then get over it and play some games.
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Seeing as how several parts of the sculptor's converted army have ended up in the finished designs he did, would it really matter if it isn't legit or not model-wise?
The text explicitly calls it out as a "Plagueburst Crawler". That's not in anything I've come across yet.
That army is not the same army as that of the sculptor/designer, this is the army of one of the studio painters. They have a very similar scheme.
But yeah, I'd say this is the real deal. Hope GW show us full pictures now that it's out in the open
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
Vindicator replacement? Looks a bit larger than the Rhino.
I dunno, given the obvious Mortar on it, I'm gonna guess it's a indirect firesupport unit. basicly a "chaos whirlwind analogue"
I would imagine it'll have more of a direct fire support role, as it has sponsons as well (not much use when you're behind a mountain ) I wonder what its' dual kit option will be.
Could be plaguespitter sponsors as defensive weapons. That would actually be pretty awesome for an artillery tank to be able to ward off CC attacks with flamer sponsons.
It appears they are not doubling up on imperium factions for the release schedule, and seem to be releasing adversarial pairings. given how few non-legion chaos forces there are this probably means that xenos won't be relegated to the back of the line. Adversarial pairing also give us some fun fodder for baseless speculation. Other factions this year, Chaos Daemons is a no brainer, and they will be accompanied by an imperial faction, probably guard, but maybe another flavor of power armor like Dark Angels.
The next two likely factions I'd bet on will probably be Ad Mech and Tau, say in October. They have a confirmed campaign coming up, and it seems like a good idea to get their codexes out before or during the campaign. There are already hints in this edition that Cawl is moving on acquiring Xenos tech, and the tau are sending forces back into the damocles gulf, which seems like foreshadowing done in skywriting.
If they Keep an adversarial pairing into December, and being flat out of chaos factions that aren't a legion, the last set of codexes for the year will probably be another flavor of power armor and another xenos. Blood angels (new and improved berserking space vampires) and Tyranids seems a likely pair, or death watch and Aeldari.
BrianDavion wrote: adversarial parinings makes sense, but at the same time it'll be hard to predict, as one would think Grey Knights would be vs deamons.
CSM isn't a bad pairing for them, but yeah daemons would have made more sense. Maybe there was a narrative reason for that, like they really want to show the everyman of the imperium (the guard) trying to fight off demonic hordes.
BrianDavion wrote: adversarial parinings makes sense, but at the same time it'll be hard to predict, as one would think Grey Knights would be vs deamons.
CSM isn't a bad pairing for them, but yeah daemons would have made more sense. Maybe there was a narrative reason for that, like they really want to show the everyman of the imperium (the guard) trying to fight off demonic hordes.
that or they needed to get GK out fast for some reason.
BrianDavion wrote: adversarial parinings makes sense, but at the same time it'll be hard to predict, as one would think Grey Knights would be vs deamons.
CSM isn't a bad pairing for them, but yeah daemons would have made more sense. Maybe there was a narrative reason for that, like they really want to show the everyman of the imperium (the guard) trying to fight off demonic hordes.
that or they needed to get GK out fast for some reason.
BrianDavion wrote: adversarial parinings makes sense, but at the same time it'll be hard to predict, as one would think Grey Knights would be vs deamons.
CSM isn't a bad pairing for them, but yeah daemons would have made more sense. Maybe there was a narrative reason for that, like they really want to show the everyman of the imperium (the guard) trying to fight off demonic hordes.
that or they needed to get GK out fast for some reason.
Isn't their Smite spam real atm? I've heard GK have some odd balance going on atm so maybe they wanted to get that out of the way quickly
Looks like a modified Minotaur hull, or something very similar, but with a mortar and sponsons instead of the double cannon
Only superficially. The Minotaur is a much larger superheavy tank, with a very different hull shape. IMO it looks more like someone found one of those awful old Epic designs lost in the warehouse and scaled it up to 28mm.
Looks like a modified Minotaur hull, or something very similar, but with a mortar and sponsons instead of the double cannon
Only superficially. The Minotaur is a much larger superheavy tank, with a very different hull shape. IMO it looks more like someone found one of those awful old Epic designs lost in the warehouse and scaled it up to 28mm.
Going by that dark green illustration of it, it looks like it has more detail on it than what we can see from the blurry photo. I think it'll look better with a proper look at it
BrianDavion wrote: adversarial parinings makes sense, but at the same time it'll be hard to predict, as one would think Grey Knights would be vs deamons.
CSM isn't a bad pairing for them, but yeah daemons would have made more sense. Maybe there was a narrative reason for that, like they really want to show the everyman of the imperium (the guard) trying to fight off demonic hordes.
that or they needed to get GK out fast for some reason.
Isn't their Smite spam real atm? I've heard GK have some odd balance going on atm so maybe they wanted to get that out of the way quickly
could be, we know some armies in the indexes feel a little, hollow like they're missing something, missing units and the like (Death Guard are a VERY clear example of this) presumably GW's planning to drop some releases, it could be GKs are slated for some inital stuff
I'd be shocked if they had models slated to come between DG and primaris releases, equally shocked if they plan to release a codex with rules for models that aren't out and won't be for a decent period.
Has it been confirmed whether previously individual codex chapter will be folded into the vanilla marine book or stay separate? (Like Blood and dark Angels)
warboss wrote: Has it been confirmed whether previously individual codex chapter will be folded into the vanilla marine book or stay separate? (Like Blood and dark Angels)
"Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those"
SilverAlien wrote: I'd be shocked if they had models slated to come between DG and primaris releases, equally shocked if they plan to release a codex with rules for models that aren't out and won't be for a decent period.
I would be to as it'd be something that'd come absolutely out of no where, with no rumors etc. but I seem to recall GW managing to pull stuff off like that before.
I suspect GKs though are mostly getting an "empty codex release" like their 7th ed release. and will, tops, get rules for using Primaris Marines. (granted I suspect that may be the case for all the SM varients this edition)
Maybe if they're lucky they'll get a new plastic HQ clampack.
Grey Knights won't get a model release - Voldus(?) would have been a good thing to go along with it, but alas too late. They are knocking that one out because it is easy to do. Which sounds like a complaint, but it is a good thing! You don't need to keep adding more and more units to factions, there are limits. Just get their rules sorted and get them out there. It is nice low hanging fruit. Devote the real time to factions that need it.
warboss wrote: Has it been confirmed whether previously individual codex chapter will be folded into the vanilla marine book or stay separate? (Like Blood and dark Angels)
By releasing codex books at this rate GW will have plenty of time to bring out plastic models and army books for lore-wise established factions like Emperor's Children and World Eaters but also introducing new ones like a completely new xeno race or a new imperial regiment. Look at 7th edition, a lot of factions got only a few models like an HQ kit with their army books. Then GW used the space to release AdMech, GSC and Harlequins.
Warhams-77 wrote: By releasing codex books at this rate GW will have plenty of time to bring out plastic models and army books for lore-wise established factions like Emperor's Children and World Eaters but also introducing new ones like a completely new xeno race or a new imperial regiment. Look at 7th edition, a lot of factions got only a few models like an HQ kit with their army books. Then GW used the space to release AdMech, GSC and Harlequins.
My concern here is that now there are a lot of older armies in dire need of many kits because of this, chaos marines likely won't get anything despite the standard chaos marine frames being ancient, dodgy finecast oblits/mutilators, no real box set for cultists etc.
Eldar are in a worse spot even with aspect warriors, grey knights have a limited range but at least it's modern.
The problem with the CSM kit is other units have depended on it as a base. Recent releases have reduced this. But until GW produce a stand alone Emperors children/Noise Marines kit I doubt they are going to replace it.
GoatboyBeta wrote: The problem with the CSM kit is other units have depended on it as a base. Recent releases have reduced this. But until GW produce a stand alone Emperors children/Noise Marines kit I doubt they are going to replace it.
you can update chaos marine kits just fine so long as you don't go too over board. bu CSMs have a few options these days, as the MK IV and MK III kits aren't a bad thing, I've got some MK IIIs that I'm thinking will eaither be black Legion or Iron warriors. (I'm torn between the two so am gonna wait for the chaos dex to hit and make up my mind)
GoatboyBeta wrote: The problem with the CSM kit is other units have depended on it as a base. Recent releases have reduced this. But until GW produce a stand alone Emperors children/Noise Marines kit I doubt they are going to replace it.
you can update chaos marine kits just fine so long as you don't go too over board. bu CSMs have a few options these days, as the MK IV and MK III kits aren't a bad thing, I've got some MK IIIs that I'm thinking will eaither be black Legion or Iron warriors. (I'm torn between the two so am gonna wait for the chaos dex to hit and make up my mind)
Honestly, if they release a Noise Marine upgrade sprue and pack it in the Mk III or Mk IV box, I think a lot of people would be happy. Those are great base kits that convert easily. Hell, they could still use one or two of the sprues and replace the remaining ones and make a good Chaos Space Marine kit out of it.
Kanluwen wrote: They look like upsized grenade launchers, in my opinion.
Yeah, but you though the leaked primaris marines were made of procreate, so...
#TeamRealRemembers
Actually, I thought they were converted.
But hey. If you want to keep bringing up things like that, more power to you. Just means you'll get ignored.
Well, it was a joke, but I will keep in mind in the future that you get really bent out of shape when people remind you that you were wrong about something.
I thought this post nicely summed up the major issues with Marines and likely what will happen as CSM have increasingly important Legion Sub-factions.
]
ross-128 wrote: Well from the looks of things, Space Marine players (and to some extent, GW themselves) seem to have some expectations for Space Marines that are... difficult to meet.
1: Named chapters are generally expected to be defined by advantages over generic Marines, disadvantages to offset these differences are... discouraged.
2: Space Marine players want generic Space Marines to be on the strong end of the power curve. Which would in some ways be understandable, everyone wants to be above average (the mathematics of that aside) except for how it conflicts with #1.
3: Space Marines fight other Space Marines more often than other factions, due to their large share of the player base. While you might expect this to push them toward a 50/50 win rate, this falls apart when you consider #1 and #2: generic Space Marines lose to named Space Marines.
4: Space Marine players are most attached to old, long-standing model lines that form the core identity of the faction. Tactical marines, devastators, terminators, Rhinos, Predators. This would be fine, except...
5: GW wants to constantly crank out new Marine models, and wants people to buy all the latest shiny stuff. So Space Marine power creep tends to be more concentrated in their newest models that the players are reluctant to field. Other factions power creep too, but their power creep is better distributed between old and new models, because new model releases for other factions are relatively rare.
#1-3 together means that generic Space Marine win rates will be suppressed no matter how good Space Marines as a whole become, because they will mostly be fighting either other generic Space Marines, or named Space Marines that are better than them.
#4-5 means that a tournament player willing to go for the newest models, and put victory before faction identity can reliably win tournaments by chasing the latest releases. Meanwhile, the more typical Marine player who is trying to field the archetypical Marine force is left behind as GW introduces new models instead of reworking old models. This results in the Space Marines being a strong faction... unless you play them the way most people expect Space Marines to play.
In a way, they're victims of their own posterboy status.
Mr Morden wrote: I thought this post nicely summed up the major issues with Marines and likely what will happen as CSM have increasingly important Legion Sub-factions.
Spoiler:
ross-128 wrote: Well from the looks of things, Space Marine players (and to some extent, GW themselves) seem to have some expectations for Space Marines that are... difficult to meet.
1: Named chapters are generally expected to be defined by advantages over generic Marines, disadvantages to offset these differences are... discouraged.
2: Space Marine players want generic Space Marines to be on the strong end of the power curve. Which would in some ways be understandable, everyone wants to be above average (the mathematics of that aside) except for how it conflicts with #1.
3: Space Marines fight other Space Marines more often than other factions, due to their large share of the player base. While you might expect this to push them toward a 50/50 win rate, this falls apart when you consider #1 and #2: generic Space Marines lose to named Space Marines.
4: Space Marine players are most attached to old, long-standing model lines that form the core identity of the faction. Tactical marines, devastators, terminators, Rhinos, Predators. This would be fine, except...
5: GW wants to constantly crank out new Marine models, and wants people to buy all the latest shiny stuff. So Space Marine power creep tends to be more concentrated in their newest models that the players are reluctant to field. Other factions power creep too, but their power creep is better distributed between old and new models, because new model releases for other factions are relatively rare.
#1-3 together means that generic Space Marine win rates will be suppressed no matter how good Space Marines as a whole become, because they will mostly be fighting either other generic Space Marines, or named Space Marines that are better than them.
#4-5 means that a tournament player willing to go for the newest models, and put victory before faction identity can reliably win tournaments by chasing the latest releases. Meanwhile, the more typical Marine player who is trying to field the archetypical Marine force is left behind as GW introduces new models instead of reworking old models. This results in the Space Marines being a strong faction... unless you play them the way most people expect Space Marines to play.
In a way, they're victims of their own posterboy status.
We will see how it plays out with CSMs buy I don't think they will have the same issues with their subfaction to the extent SMs are suggested to in the post you shared. At least for the Big 4 they are different enough to not be as impacted by the regular CSM army.
One big difference is that the legions are getting unique options from regular CSMs but also losing options from regular CSMs. This differs from named SM chapters where they all have the same units PLUS some unique ones. So you are losing out by playing generic chapters in some ways. This isn't quite the same for generic CSMs as they can pick and choose specialized cult units in addition to the more generic options.
Of course we'll have to see how it plays out with codex releases, and GW doesn't have the best track record for CSMs over the last decade, but as a long time Death Guard player, I'm happy to be getting new stuff, even if it means we lose some old options from regular CSMs. I just hope it isn't so much as to make the army a niche, one dimensional specialized force.
I guess over the next few months we'll have a pretty good idea of how GW plans to shape individual armies in 8th, and how specialized they will be.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Honestly, if they release a Noise Marine upgrade sprue and pack it in the Mk III or Mk IV box, I think a lot of people would be happy. Those are great base kits that convert easily. Hell, they could still use one or two of the sprues and replace the remaining ones and make a good Chaos Space Marine kit out of it.
I would imagine it's more likely that EC and WE get their own kits like TS and DG.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Honestly, if they release a Noise Marine upgrade sprue and pack it in the Mk III or Mk IV box, I think a lot of people would be happy. Those are great base kits that convert easily. Hell, they could still use one or two of the sprues and replace the remaining ones and make a good Chaos Space Marine kit out of it.
I would imagine it's more likely that EC and WE get their own kits like TS and DG.
More than likely. But if thry made it more like the Space Wolf Pack kit and had add-on sprues, it would definitely work.
warboss wrote: Has it been confirmed whether previously individual codex chapter will be folded into the vanilla marine book or stay separate? (Like Blood and dark Angels)
"Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those"
warboss wrote: Has it been confirmed whether previously individual codex chapter will be folded into the vanilla marine book or stay separate? (Like Blood and dark Angels)
Sadly it is the opposite.
I agree... and I say that as a primary Blood Angel and secondary Dark Angel player (and former Space Wolf player). I was hoping that marines would be all rolled into one double sized book to decrease the leap year in real time you see between supposedly roughly equivalent armies that leads to large imbalances.
This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.
They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.
Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.
Genuine questions, why did you buy all 5 books? Have you used every index in games already? Did you not expect codexes to come out? Are you upset that they are coming out too fast?
That's what I was wondering. I picked up just two of the codexes, figuring to use them for a while until the bugs get ironed out of the actual ones for my armies.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.
This is how I feel. I really want to believe that GW has changed. I'm just worried that we'll be looking at a fragmented $1000+ full rule set for 8th, just like 7th.
Let's make a couple of very reasonable assumptions and err on the low side.
GW has a ton of factions on their site right now. I think it's reasonable to assume something like this for initial Codex factions. Let's call a Codex $40, even though we all know they're probably going to be $50 in many, if not all, cases.
1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Deathwatch
5. Grey Knights
6. Space Wolves
7. Imperial Guard
8. Imperial Agents (Misc Imperials... i.e., Ministorum, Custodes, Sister of Silence, Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, Assassins)
9. AdMech
10. Imperial Knights
11. Chaos Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons
13. Death Guard
14. Orks
15. Craftworld Eldar
16. Dark Eldar
17. Other Eldar (Harlequins/Ynnari)
18. Necrons
19. T'au Empire
20. Tyranids
21. Genestealer Cults
22. Sisters of Battle
At a quick ballpark figure, erring on the side of no new factions and a cheaper than expected codex, that's $1065. I'm also expecting campaign books and new factions/rules expansions to jack the price up even higher. I'm not even including the Forgeworld books, which contain rules for SOME of the 40k stuff. We've already been told the the FW indexes are incomplete and don't cover all existing 40k usable models. The Secutarii Titan Guard are an example. I know this because I bought them and now don't have rules to use them.
I really don't understand this complaint. Yes, if you want to buy every single piece of lore and memorabilia, it's going to cost something. But... you know that going into it. And if you need those books because you own every army, you've already probably spent 8x-10x that on models alone, so... is the cost of books really the thing to complain about here?
What other table top miniatures game has such an expensive set of rules? The others in the top 5 aren't even remotely close. Star Wars X-Wing is... $0 for the rule set? Star Wars Armada is $30, assuming you want to play the Corelllian Conflict campaign. For regular play, it's $0. I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0? Seeing a trend here? Obviously, not every game has free rules, but over $1000 for a full set is pretty expensive.
My main complaint is that the rule set is super expensive and yet most of the rule books only have a handful of pages of actual rules. The rest is fluff or narrative missions. I don't want to pay $50 for a Codex that has only a handful of useful pages.
Damn GW for making me play 40K and spend my money on their product without any free will on my part!
Not to mention that, if you want the complete rules for X-wing, you need to buy one example of every single release - because unit rules and upgrades only come as cards in the model releases.
I've not run the numbers, mostly because I'm scared to find out just how much I've spent on x-wing in the last 5 years, but you're easily talking over £500 to get *everything*:
11 waves of standard releases, at around £50 a wave (4 ships) - 550
5 "aces" boxes (imperial 1/2, scum, rebel . resesiatce) at around 30 each - 150
5 "epic" ships that themselves can;t be used in srandard play but come with upgrades that can, or contain "fixes" that render uncompetitive ships viable again - average 60 each, 300
that adds up to 1k, actually. (I don;t have a complete collection, I should add).
Say what you like about 40k and GW's pricing model, but i've never had to buy a GW kit I didn't really want just because it was the only way to get access to a particular upgrade option.
Comparing GW's codexes to X-wings cardsets is apples to oranges. They are indeed both fruit, but taste, feel and are used very differently.
A more accurate comparison would be warmachine - you don't neeeeeed the books, but they do allow you more options. This is also how AoS rolls, and I like it a lot.
I understand the desire for a consolidation of the codex rules, but that was what the indexes did/do.
The codexes are not going to be sold/marketed as collectors items to anyone other than the players of those factions, so stating that the combined cost of all the codexes is somehow a barrier to entry is like saying you won't make yourself a Pb and J sandwhich because you don't have 32 flavors of jelly.
My orks like that crawler! Making the outer cover of the tank not flat was a very good decision
I don't get the crack by the front 3barreled gun though
Makes it look like a cyclops with the barrel of the mortar being an eye (cannot unsee)
Its an interesting looking thing for sure. The paint scheme and angle don't seem to be doing it any favours though. Looks like there is a fair bit of detail that's lost in all the bone white.
Considering how busy and blinged out the bloat drone is i'm surprised at the plaguecrawler. It looks like they showed a bit of restraint with it. Doesn't look like a daemon engine as I don't really see much if any fleshy parts. I kind of wish it had some ichor dripping out of cracks, a viewport or something for the pilot...maybe a little more character to it. But as it is I like it, i'll probably buy 1 or 2. Hopefully they will have a place in 750-1000 point armies cause that's my preferred pts level right now.
I'm hoping for lots of little feet rather than tracks similar to those from the community page (although I don't think they're for this, but from an AoS nurgle creature)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm hoping for lots of little feet rather than tracks similar to those from the community page (although I don't think they're for this, but from an AoS nurgle creature)
Or possibly compatible with both. I think it's odd they haven't pushed more kits like that since AoS dropped.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm hoping for lots of little feet rather than tracks similar to those from the community page (although I don't think they're for this, but from an AoS nurgle creature)
Well, we know Maggoths are coming to 40k so why couldn't it be something for both?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm hoping for lots of little feet rather than tracks similar to those from the community page (although I don't think they're for this, but from an AoS nurgle creature)
Well, we know Maggoths are coming to 40k so why couldn't it be something for both?
Usually any new daemon kits work across both 40k and AoS, but if it is a maggoth then it might be more 40k oriented since AoS already has 3 cool maggoth builds. I admit a 40k maggoth with a chaos marine riding a slug might be a bit cartoony or dumb so i'm hoping its more like just a beast of nurgle or daemon engine.
However we can't quite see the tracks on this plagueburst crawler in that image, could it be moving on tons of tiny legs...maybe...that might be really cool.
Do we think that this Plagueburst Crawler is confirmation that Death Guard will continue to not have direct keyword access to a lot of CSM units (Havoc's etc) that caused all the complaints upon the release of the Chaos index? This basically looks like a Death Guard Vindicator* (Do not have my index to hand so cannot remember if Death Guard have access to Vindis).
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm hoping for lots of little feet rather than tracks similar to those from the community page (although I don't think they're for this, but from an AoS nurgle creature)
Or possibly compatible with both. I think it's odd they haven't pushed more kits like that since AoS dropped.
To be fair, most of the cross-compatible kits like Daemons and the like were already done. The Bloodthirster triple-kit and Skarbrand got done with End Times. We've seen, since Age of Sigmar's launch: Lord of Change and Kairos kit The Brimstone Horrors and the like. Tzaangors.
I wouldn't be surprised when we see the Rotbringers for Nurgle to see a Great Unclean One and named variant, Beasts of Nurgle, and Maggoth kit.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm hoping for lots of little feet rather than tracks similar to those from the community page (although I don't think they're for this, but from an AoS nurgle creature)
Well, we know Maggoths are coming to 40k so why couldn't it be something for both?
Usually any new daemon kits work across both 40k and AoS, but if it is a maggoth then it might be more 40k oriented since AoS already has 3 cool maggoth builds. I admit a 40k maggoth with a chaos marine riding a slug might be a bit cartoony or dumb so i'm hoping its more like just a beast of nurgle or daemon engine.
Who says it has to be ridden by anything? From what I've been hearing regarding the "Dark Imperium" novel where the Maggoth bit comes from, it's used as a siege beast.
If one looks at the sprue breakdown for the Maggoth Lords, it's actually really easy to create a new box of just the beast:
Spoiler:
Sprue 01 has the body and limbs. Sprue 02 has the rider specific bits on there, along with some unique head/torso options that match with the riders and the associated head.
They'd just need a new sprue with heads that cover where the rider fits and bam, done. It makes me think that we're going to see some new fluff about Maggoths crop up about them being some kind of daemonic beast so that we can get unridden ones in AoS as well.
Could be a cool way for some new "breeds" of Maggoth as well.
However we can't quite see the tracks on this plagueburst crawler in that image, could it be moving on tons of tiny legs...maybe...that might be really cool.
We can see enough towards the rear to note that there appear to be tracks, not tiny legs.
Makes me wonder why the "crawler" name but maybe it's meant to be like how the thing that transported the space shuttle to the launch gurneys was called a "Crawler-transporter".
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ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Do we think that this Plagueburst Crawler is confirmation that Death Guard will continue to not have direct keyword access to a lot of CSM units (Havoc's etc) that caused all the complaints upon the release of the Chaos index? This basically looks like a Death Guard Vindicator* (Do not have my index to hand so cannot remember if Death Guard have access to Vindis).
That's a fair assumption to make. We know they're getting their own Codex and so are Thousand Sons. Likely there will be some stuff from CSM that will make an appearance, but they're also likely to get their own units that fulfill similar roles.
I would not be surprised to see a Death Guard squad that fulfills a role similar to Havocs but with the new Death Guard specific weapons.
I mean, how fun would a unit of Death Guard with the slime cannons from the Bloat Drone be to have?
I'm glad to see that the SM codex and Chaos Codex will likely retain the chapters/legion rules. However I am disappointed that:
1.) Grey Knights get their own codex again, rather than being rolled up with the Inquisition and SoBs. I know people would bemoan me bemoaning this but Knights never really had enough going for them to be a standalone force; they're daemon-hunting specialists and should remain so, relying on support from the other aspects of the Imperial Agents to fill in their gaps.
2.) Death Guard getting their own codex. While I do praise that the Sons of Mortarion are finally getting the proper recognition they deserved (something that was only briefly touched upon in the Traitor Legions supplement and was only really seen back in the 3.5 ed dex), getting their own codex only bumps up the MEQ dexes to even more absurd heights. And this is coming from a Death Guard player. I would have been more than satisfied just having my Plague Terminators back and a DG Havoc Squad rather than my own standalone book.
BrotherGecko wrote: So the Deathguard are getting "Space Wolf'd" it seems. They are just going to beat the Nurgle theme to death with them.
To be fair, why wouldn't Nurgle's private legion be armed with weapons that spread disease and decay? Wouldn't that make his job easier?
I can totally imagine them using biological weapons and having the rules to show it.
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MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I'm glad to see that the SM codex and Chaos Codex will likely retain the chapters/legion rules. However I am disappointed that:
1.) Grey Knights get their own codex again, rather than being rolled up with the Inquisition and SoBs. I know people would bemoan me bemoaning this but Knights never really had enough going for them to be a standalone force; they're daemon-hunting specialists and should remain so, relying on support from the other aspects of the Imperial Agents to fill in their gaps.
Yeah, the Daemonhunters codex was their best iteration, imo. There's even a section that gives fluffy justication as to why the Ordo Malleaus would fight things like C'tan and Eldar.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I'm glad to see that the SM codex and Chaos Codex will likely retain the chapters/legion rules. However I am disappointed that:
1.) Grey Knights get their own codex again, rather than being rolled up with the Inquisition and SoBs. I know people would bemoan me bemoaning this but Knights never really had enough going for them to be a standalone force; they're daemon-hunting specialists and should remain so, relying on support from the other aspects of the Imperial Agents to fill in their gaps.
2.) Death Guard getting their own codex. While I do praise that the Sons of Mortarion are finally getting the proper recognition they deserved (something that was only briefly touched upon in the Traitor Legions supplement and was only really seen back in the 3.5 ed dex), getting their own codex only bumps up the MEQ dexes to even more absurd heights. And this is coming from a Death Guard player. I would have been more than satisfied just having my Plague Terminators back and a DG Havoc Squad rather than my own standalone book.
I think that #2 is one of those things that people are going to have to come to terms with. Age of Sigmar has shown that the different Chaos Gods can work quite well as standalone books and forces, and I really hope that they keep that up.
I honestly can't wait to see how they bring the god specific forces they've done for AoS(Rotbringers, Bloodbound, and Disciples) into 40k.
BrotherGecko wrote: So the Deathguard are getting "Space Wolf'd" it seems. They are just going to beat the Nurgle theme to death with them.
Yep prepare for slugmarines riding slugs with slug guns sludge swords and a slug lord on his slugsled pulled by ...Slugs.
Idk, a chariot being pulled by demonic centipedes would be pretty freaky. As long as they use a thesaurus this time instead of just spamming plague, it should be fine.
BrotherGecko wrote: So the Deathguard are getting "Space Wolf'd" it seems. They are just going to beat the Nurgle theme to death with them.
To be fair, why wouldn't Nurgle's private legion be armed with weapons that spread disease and decay? Wouldn't that make his job easier?
I can totally imagine them using biological weapons and having the rules to show it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I'm glad to see that the SM codex and Chaos Codex will likely retain the chapters/legion rules. However I am disappointed that:
1.) Grey Knights get their own codex again, rather than being rolled up with the Inquisition and SoBs. I know people would bemoan me bemoaning this but Knights never really had enough going for them to be a standalone force; they're daemon-hunting specialists and should remain so, relying on support from the other aspects of the Imperial Agents to fill in their gaps.
Yeah, the Daemonhunters codex was their best iteration, imo. There's even a section that gives fluffy justication as to why the Ordo Malleaus would fight things like C'tan and Eldar.
That doesn't sound like snot launchers, fart guns, puke bombs..etc etc.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Idk, a chariot being pulled by demonic centipedes would be pretty freaky.
As long as they use a thesaurus this time instead of just spamming plague, it should be fine.
Starting to already see quite a few repeats: Plagueburst crawler, blight launcher/grenade, plague reaper/knife/sword/bell/probe, plaguespitter, pox walkers, noxious blightwalker, lord of contagion, foetid bloat drone, malignant plaguecaster, and plague marines.
There is a limit to what even a thesaurus can be accomplish. If we have mostly run out of new units it isn't too bad, but if we have too many more well....
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Whatever, Blight Launcher is a pretty rad name for a weapon.
That one does make sense, it (presumably) shoots modified blight grenades. Just like all of the melee weapons being plague (x) isn't that bad. it's like complaining about multiple types of power weapon.
Of course I honestly still don't mind space wolves, and it makes far more sense with DG as well.
Lot of whiners here. If they didnt do the index there would be 20 pages whining about that. No one made you buy the indexes, and they arent going to be invalid instantly either. Theres like half a dozen or so factions in each index, meaning some wont be invalid for up to 2 years at 2 codex per month.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: If one language fails to provide enough synonyms, start taking words from another.
Then you look super intelligent and erudite!
Like, call something kegare* or something
Translators Note : Kegare means defilement or uncleanliness
mixing other languages in though begs the question, why? it also makes translation a bitch I suspect
Yeah, probably. Like, if you translate something from English to German and it has German words in it, what do you do? Do you translate the German words to English, or just leave it?
But then that might mess with whatever theme that naming convention was following.
I really don't mind mixing languages as long as there's a clear thematic element, and as long as not too many languages are used, but I can see how it become a mess.
I think I am going to hold off on any codex purchases. Since I don't plan on playing tournaments in awhile I am sure my gaming friends will be ok with me using indexes. I bought 4 of the 5 because I have so many armies. I had atleast two armies in every index so they were a good buy. They will atleast help me get used to playing 40k in 8th edition.
I was hoping codexes were gone for good, very wishful thinking on my part. GW is going back to hardcore publishing again, big shocker there. And hardcovers at probably 50 bucks or so a pop. no thanks. I bought enough hardback books in college that I overpaid for not looking to go thru that again.
Heh. I'm probably gonna take a look at C:SM and see if it can do my 1st and 10th idea well enough for me to use it until C:BA is out... but otherwise I'll just wait for C:BA and C:SoB.
I never expected codices were gone for good. The entire concept of the Index was advertised by GW from the start as a way to hold people over until their codex was released to begin with-- so those people on the internet that you got the idea of codices being over from did you a serious disservice.
