Xenomancers wrote: We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue?
Yeah. The issue is that you're trying to do it in a single turn with a limited number of resources, and shooting only, apparently.
You do realize that practically any infantry unit that charges a conscript unit loses out in the process right? They have insane overwatch...
If insane overwatch is killing like... 2 guys? Besides there's always the charge with a Rhino first option. Which goes under the category of LRN2PlyNub, Get gud, et al. btw.
Then why are we worried about how conscripts match up to tacticals? "Omg! This one unit is better (marginally) than the second-worst unit in the game! OP!!!"
400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts
401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.
(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)
I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.
400 points of marines kills 46 points of conscripts a turn. 400 points of conscripts kills 252 points of marines a turn. Go ahead and nit-pick about how marines can all get into rapid-fire range slightly easier than conscripts can - it doesn't change the overwhelmingly massive discrepancy..
And all the math I've seen in all these threads showing how they're also more durable is brushed off as "well that's why you take them"
Both together is just stupidly, stupidly good.
I am sorry for copy/pasting my own quote, but how is this (marginally) better? Or are you saying they're only marginally better without orders (I never know when we're making that assumption or not) in which case I agree. Tactical marines are not good but they are the closest thing to a baseline that this game has, so being equal to them is essentially fine, being a little better is all most generalist units strive for. Even without orders conscripts will still leave tac marines in the dust and be a good unit, just not an OP monster.
I am always talking without orders in my maths and whatnot, because I completely agree that with orders Conscripts are OP, and if we just agreed all the time there'd be no discussion to be had! I'm on team 'remove orders from conscripts because currently they are OP' at the same time as being on team 'without orders, conscripts are fine'.
Insectum7 wrote: If insane overwatch is killing like... 2 guys? Besides there's always the charge with a Rhino first option. Which goes under the category of LRN2PlyNub, Get gud, et al. btw.
Or for extra fun, you can deep stirke some reivers and toss their grenades. Suddenly, no overwatch, AND any surviving conscripts (of which there probably won't be any, but you might roll poorly) hit on 6s in the fight phase afterwards, literally halving their already pathetic attack capability and also reducing their already pathetic leadership to 3(!!!) once you get rid of the commissar.
Asmodios wrote: "I am primarily objecting to #3, combined with #2 just a bit. I'm not trying to play a gimmick list, so the bubblewrap doesn't bother me. Two conscript squads give me at least 4 dead cards in my maelstrom deck, and give them 4 auto score cards. The concripts are cheap enough that they can do this and bring all the anti-infantry and anti-tank they could ever need. The conscripts leave too many points left over for the IG to work with. "
The thing with #3 is melee. Any army with a decent CC unit can get it in and you are either forced to run or they will just crush you over a few turns. This happened to me against CSM army last night. You get beat down in CC and you either have to run (giving up the objective thats the whole point) and while you are doing that the conscripts can't do there real job which is screening your good stuff. Once again they are very good but i think many of those crying broken haven't seen conscripts in practice. Id be fine with conscripts losing orders honestly though because in reality there true purpose is just being meat shields and the orders are just a useful bonus and makes your opponent have to play with half a brain and not park a unit 2' from a conscript blob
The melee units get crippled before they can assault. Or they assault, kill 20 guys, and then get erased. IG guy can afford to lose 20 conscripts in exchange for a HTH unit all day. IG firebase is too big and they have too many wounds on the table. Hard stop. I don't know many other ways to explain this. And yes, I'm playing IG guys building the most abusive stuff they can think of. Gak happens.
"will just crush you over a few turns"
This is fine for the IG player. He is paying a 150 pt squad to buy time holding off 300+ pts. No matter what you do, it's a win-win-win for the IG.
Im not sure who you are playing against but the opponents i have played against have had zero problems getting to me turn one (orks with weird boy jump turn one charge. CSM with terminator deep strike turn one charge followed up by rhino bezerkers and DP turn 2 charges. Harliquins getting their entire army across the board turn 1) almost every army i have played against has had something get in turn 1 and only a single game have i managed to steal the first turn. If you lose 20 conscripts you now also run into two problems 1. the unit is getting close to combat ineffective levels where your opponent no longer has to worry about any real damage output. 2. You are now stuck in CC if you fall back your bubble wrap most likely is not working anymore (either something was killed out with the 20 wounds, you had to fall back out of bubble wrapping everything or you placed so far away people can now multi charge into your units behind next turn). Realistically conscripts buy you one turn of shooting with your good stuff and thats only if you use them to conga line which means no FRFSRF bubble and no objective holding. Yes they would be broken if everyone was foot slogging across the board with no protection but thats another issue. With the amount of turn 1 charge possibilities this edition conscripts give guard a turn of bubble wrap, sometimes this is good enough sometimes its not. Just curious have you played against it several different times with different armies? I've now used them against several different players with completely different armies and list and they are good but i haven't found them broken at all.
I've played against it three times. Maybe marine stuff getting recosted will help. I just run out of gas every game. If I chop through the conscripts, there's nothing left to handle the tanks. If I chop through the tanks, there's nothing to handle the conscripts.
Xenomancers wrote: We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue?
Yeah. The issue is that you're trying to do it in a single turn with a limited number of resources, and shooting only, apparently.
This is with the gameplan of getting past the conscripts and then to multicharge the squishy things behind them. If it takes longer than one turn to remove the conscripts then you will likely take too many losses, since all the firing will essentially be unopposed (you can't outshoot them with an assault army). If you try to remove the conscripts via melee then you either have to footslog it up to the conscripts or deliver the melee units quickly via some transport method which costs further points - and then your melee units will have to be exposed in the open for a turn anyway. If the AM army didn't have shooting units that could efficiently take advantage of this stalling then it wouldn't be a problem, but between heavy weapons teams and scions they annihilate most armies before the game has reached turn 5.
If your gameplan is not to get past the conscripts, instead opting to shoot at the squishy things from long range, then the conscripts still represent more than enough shooting to pose a credible threat to any target with T5 or lower.
Again, it's not the overwatch or the offense. It's the sheer amount of dice they suck up to deal with. It's really temporal cost. The time it takes playing around them or through them makes the IG almost impossible to handle for marines in my view.
I've often said that 40K does not have temporal costs like Starcraft, but this is one case where there IS a temporal cost.
In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.
Melissia wrote: Because, apparently, the only way those crying about conscripts can proven their point is by stacking limitation upon limitation, constantly moving the goalposts. Show us how to remove conscripts in a couple turns for equal cost, you can't do that it's impossible! So I showed that some assault marines, vanguard veterans, or death company could remove a conscript squad in a couple turns. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Show us how to remove them in one turn! Okay. I showed that less than 500 points of tacticals + HQ could outright delete a conscript squad. Now show us how you can remove the conscript squad entirely in one turn at range for less than 500 points without putting any units in danger!
The hyperbole is real, yo. This is why we can't have a civil discussion on conscripts. Stop moving the goalposts, calm down, stop hyperventilating, and realize that it's a freaking board game where you move plastic soldiers around and roll dice while making "pew pew" sounds in your head.
First you are wrong - 500 points of tacticals can not delete a conscript unit even in maricle land where 39 tactical marines make it into rapid fire range undammaged - averages 23 killed conscripts in shooting - they all make their charges and kill 12 more. 23+12 = 35. Still 15 conscripts left.
Second - that situation would never arise. 40 tactical marines marching up the field gets obliterated by just about anything.
Melissia wrote: In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.
*Could do it a fair amount of the time if conscripts were less efficient.
Melissia wrote: In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.
BA can't table IG in infinity rounds, because the IG table them first.
Insectum7 wrote: If insane overwatch is killing like... 2 guys? Besides there's always the charge with a Rhino first option. Which goes under the category of LRN2PlyNub, Get gud, et al. btw.
Or for extra fun, you can deep stirke some reivers and toss their grenades. Suddenly, no overwatch, AND any surviving conscripts (of which there probably won't be any, but you might roll poorly) hit on 6s in the fight phase afterwards, literally halving their already pathetic attack capability and also reducing their already pathetic leadership to 3(!!!) once you get rid of the commissar.
Melissia wrote: In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.
*Could do it a fair amount of the time if conscripts were less efficient.
No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.
Melissia wrote: Because, apparently, the only way those crying about conscripts can proven their point is by stacking limitation upon limitation, constantly moving the goalposts. Show us how to remove conscripts in a couple turns for equal cost, you can't do that it's impossible! So I showed that some assault marines, vanguard veterans, or death company could remove a conscript squad in a couple turns. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Show us how to remove them in one turn! Okay. I showed that less than 500 points of tacticals + HQ could outright delete a conscript squad. Now show us how you can remove the conscript squad entirely in one turn at range for less than 500 points without putting any units in danger!
The hyperbole is real, yo. This is why we can't have a civil discussion on conscripts. Stop moving the goalposts, calm down, stop hyperventilating, and realize that it's a freaking board game where you move plastic soldiers around and roll dice while making "pew pew" sounds in your head.
First you are wrong - 500 points of tacticals can not delete a conscript unit even in maricle land where 39 tactical marines make it into rapid fire range undammaged - averages 23 killed conscripts in shooting - they all make their charges and kill 12 more. 23+12 = 35. Still 15 conscripts left.
Second - that situation would never arise. 40 tactical marines marching up the field gets obliterated by just about anything.
Martel732 wrote:Someone's math is wrong, then. It does't matter, though, because that many intact tactical marines will never get there.
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts
Do you have some figures for that?
In a single turn, definitely takes about that much. And it should.
Let's see though.
Spoiler:
Captain w/MCBG and chainsword
Primaris Lieutenant
As such, all 1s on to-hit and to-wound are rerolled.
4 tactical squads w/combiflamer, flamer.
Flamers: 8d6 auto hits, average 28 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 21.778, 14.5 models removed from flamers.
Combi-boltguns: 8 shots, 4+ hit reroll 1s, 4.667 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 4.148 wounds, about 3 models removed from sarge boltgun-mode combiflamers.
Boltguns+MCABR: 34 shots, 3+ hit reroll 1s, 26.445 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 20.568 wounds, 14 models removed from squaddie boltguns and the Lt's MCABR.
Mastercrafted Boltgun: 2 shots, 2+ to hit reroll 1s, 1.945 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 1.296 wounds, 1 model removed from the captain.
Then they assault. Captain, Lt, and 4 squads all use grenades. Captain rolled separately because separate to-hit, 3.5 average attacks, hit on 2+ rerolling misses, 3.403 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 1.985 wounds, 1 and a third model removed by the cap's grenade. Other 5 grenades average 17.5 attacks, 3+ to hit reroll 1s, 13.611 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 7.940 wounds, and 5.293 models removed.
So in total, before the assault phase after the grenades-- which is a charge, so the tacticals hit first-- they have already removed 39 models, then in the assault phase, they get 28 hitting on 3+ from the tac squads, 9 hitting on 2+ from the characters, all wounding in 3+, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. 21.778 hits from tacs, 16.938 wounds, 11 models removed. The squad is already gone before the characters get to attack. Marines consolidates 3", preferably in to cover, and get ready for the opponent's turn, sans conscripts.
Yeah that's about right; 4 tac squads and a pair of HQs* manage to frekaing delete an entire 50-man conscript squad in one turn without taking any damage, and without taking in to account any chapter tactics. And that's tacticals, I should remind you. To give an understatement of the century, tacticals aren't exactly the super-best op-pls-nerf unit in the Marine army list according to most people on this forum.
*To be clear, I chose this particular grouping because this was less than 3x the cost of a conscript squad and support. This is around 491 points; a unit of conscripts needs at least a platoon commander and commissar, putting them at 201 points, and even a company commander and commissar split across two squads of conscripts is still 180 points per conscript squad.
Melissia wrote: In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.
*Could do it a fair amount of the time if conscripts were less efficient.
No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.
So your correction is wrong.
No armor is not ridiculous. It still requires over a 100 boltgun shots to remove them. That's crazy for a 150 pt unit.
I would never field those units in the above mathematical scenario, either. In addition, you MIGHT get half those marine in range.
Melissia wrote: No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.
So your correction is wrong.
I was simply referring to what I am writing ITT. Most of the people arguing with you are saying that conscripts are too good and need to be fair, not terrible.
My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.
I think what he was getting at, was that list doesn't intend to reach the back line. It's simply to grab OBJs and hide out of LoS and annoy him to teach him a lesson.
Melissia wrote: My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.
But they can't. Because real list building and real game play. If you bring that package against mech Eldar, you are going to get murdered like little bitches. Quit list tailoring.
Melissia wrote: No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.
So your correction is wrong.
I was simply referring to what I am writing ITT. Most of the people arguing with you are saying that conscripts are too good and need to be fair, not terrible.
So remove orders, and they become fair, not terrible, nor OP. I'm not the only one saying that.
Melissia wrote: No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.
So your correction is wrong.
I was simply referring to what I am writing ITT. Most of the people arguing with you are saying that conscripts are too good and need to be fair, not terrible.
So remove orders, and they become fair, not terrible, nor OP. I'm not the only one saying that.
This seems to be a middle ground for sure. They are still likely too good for 3pts, but not game breakingly so. I think.
Melissia wrote: My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.
If they get to that range unscathed, and they have to spend at least two turns to do it if you include the transport turn. This is still 500 pts dealing with 180-200 pts of conscripts. I don't think it's feasible.
Melissia wrote: My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.
But they can't. Because real list building and real game play. If you bring that package against mech Eldar, you are going to get murdered like little bitches. Quit list tailoring.
Melissia wrote: My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.
If they get to that range unscathed, and they have to spend at least two turns to do it if you include the transport turn. This is still 500 pts dealing with 180-200 pts of conscripts. I don't think it's feasible.
Moving the goalposts, as Melissa mentioned:
Melissia wrote: Because, apparently, the only way those crying about conscripts can proven their point is by stacking limitation upon limitation, constantly moving the goalposts. Show us how to remove conscripts in a couple turns for equal cost, you can't do that it's impossible! So I showed that some assault marines, vanguard veterans, or death company could remove a conscript squad in a couple turns. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Show us how to remove them in one turn! Okay. I showed that less than 500 points of tacticals + HQ could outright delete a conscript squad. Now show us how you can remove the conscript squad entirely in one turn at range for less than 500 points without putting any units in danger!
The hyperbole is real, yo. This is why we can't have a civil discussion on conscripts. Stop moving the goalposts, calm down, stop hyperventilating, and realize that it's a freaking board game where you move plastic soldiers around and roll dice while making "pew pew" sounds in your head.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So remove orders, and they become fair, not terrible, nor OP. I'm not the only one saying that.
In fact, the person who said it first was Katherine, not any of the people here who are complaining about conscripts. And she even did the mathhammer to show that to make conscripts balanced offensively, you can make such a minor adjustment as having them only successfully follow an Order on a roll of 3+.
One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.
I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
Xenomancers wrote: First you are wrong - 500 points of tacticals can not delete a conscript unit
My math already proved they can. In fact, they overkilled the conscripts by a large margin.
Please feel free to dispute my math.
500 points of marines. this is essentially 39 marines (39. something). gave 1 of the sargets a storm bolter to make it right.
80 shots (2/3) = 53.3333 hits (2/3) 53.3333 = 35.5555 wounds (2/3) = 23.7 wounds after saves
Charge
You have 4 sargents = 12 attacks
you have 35 marines = 35 attacks
Martel732 wrote: One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.
I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.
Try bringing 6 TLAC predators and nailing their tanks, outright ignoring the conscripts? That's only ~1200 points, so you'll be able to deep-strike onto all the non-conscript objectives with assault squads pretty easy once the IG tanks have been evaporated.
IG do appear to be a little OP in 8th edition, but I don't see conscripts as the source.
Saying this as a CSM player. The natural counter for conscripts is Berzerkers and they don't have a problem with large blobs. The opponents I face seem to understand this well enough, aside from a couple games at the start of 8th edition they have mostly left the table.
Am honestly more concerned with cheap squads with lots of plasma and lascannons. It just feels like they can field so many heavy weapons it negates the advantage of scenery, there's always an angle to get at my tanks with things that cause multiple wounds.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So remove orders, and they become fair, not terrible, nor OP. I'm not the only one saying that.
In fact, the person who said it first was Katherine, not any of the people here who are complaining about conscripts. And she even did the mathhammer to show that to make conscripts balanced offensively, you can make such a minor adjustment as having them only successfully follow an Order on a roll of 3+.
I haven't seen any mathhammer that supported this conclusion, where did she say that?
sossen wrote: I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
And why should conscripts be deletable in 1 phase of shooting alone? And if they could, they would become useless against melee armies, since all the melee army would have to do is spend that 1 turn deleting them with shooting and then charge over their corpses in the same turn.
Being able to obliterate conscripts for roughly equal points with shooting alone completely removes their function in the IG armylist.
Martel732 wrote: One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.
I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.
Try bringing 6 TLAC predators and nailing their tanks, outright ignoring the conscripts? That's only ~1200 points, so you'll be able to deep-strike onto all the non-conscript objectives with assault squads pretty easy once the IG tanks have been evaporated.
Well, in each of my three games there was AT LEAST 4 tanks I couldn't shoot. I keep upping my lascannon counts, but it's not helping. I'm considering going dual ravens one with DC one with assault terminators. I had such hopes for 8th and BA are back in the toilet already. Feth.
sossen wrote: I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
This is the going consensus from the defenders that you should have to bring mutiple more points than the cost of the conscript unit to destroy them - it's totally okay that in this process you are getting shelled by artillery probably trading 500 points to kill a 150 point script unit.
techsoldaten wrote: IG do appear to be a little OP in 8th edition, but I don't see conscripts as the source.
Saying this as a CSM player. The natural counter for conscripts is Berzerkers and they don't have a problem with large blobs. The opponents I face seem to understand this well enough, aside from a couple games at the start of 8th edition they have mostly left the table.
Am honestly more concerned with cheap squads with lots of plasma and lascannons. It just feels like they can field so many heavy weapons it negates the advantage of scenery, there's always an angle to get at my tanks with things that cause multiple wounds.
I mentioned a few pages ago that this is a multilayered problem.
sossen wrote: I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
And why should conscripts be deletable in 1 phase of shooting alone? And if they could, they would become useless against melee armies, since all the melee army would have to do is spend that 1 turn deleting them with shooting and then charge over their corpses in the same turn.
Being able to obliterate conscripts for roughly equal points with shooting alone completely removes their function in the IG armylist.
I agree with everything you just said. I have never implied that you should be able to kill conscripts with an equal amount of points at range in one or two turns.
Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.
I don't understand why you think he's being TFG. I like him, he's nice, and he's only deploying his guard the way I would. I don't hate the player, I hate the game lol.
Also, working out the math for that last would be a pain, but it doesn't sound like it would do very well at all. He's always got a lot of small units of heavy weapons teams, and each one would delete an autarch each time it fired. He has 20+ units and almost all of them are probably capable of deleting an autarch each time they fire. Meanwhile I'd do almost nothing to his infantry units at all, and I'd have to foot slog through all his shooting to actually reach his back line...
I don't know what the rest of his list looks like, but, but he's got about a 50% chance of not doing any damage with each lascannon HWS. On top of that, he's got a 28% chance of not dealing enough damage to one to kill it with a single squad firing. You may need to throw some warlocks in there to add a few more turns of wasting firepower, but any wounded Autarchs left over you can just move slightly further away than one of the others, and then he has to shoot at them for a while. So he'd probably need at least 3 HWS to kill a single Autarch, and that's likely his most effective means of doing so, so over the course of the game, he'd be removing 5-6 Autarchs / 3 HWS. Maybe pad out with the Warlocks, just to be safe, but it would take far longer than you think it would. Unless he moves out of that corner, I'm not sure how he'd win objectives before the end of the round.
sossen wrote: I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
This is the going consensus from the defenders that you should have to bring mutiple more points than the cost of the conscript unit to destroy them - it's totally okay that in this process you are getting shelled by artillery probably trading 500 points to kill a 150 point script unit.
sossen wrote: I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
And why should conscripts be deletable in 1 phase of shooting alone? And if they could, they would become useless against melee armies, since all the melee army would have to do is spend that 1 turn deleting them with shooting and then charge over their corpses in the same turn.
Being able to obliterate conscripts for roughly equal points with shooting alone completely removes their function in the IG armylist.
I agree with everything you just said. I have never implied that you should be able to kill conscripts with an equal amount of points at range in one or two turns.
Martel732 wrote: One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.
I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.
Try bringing 6 TLAC predators and nailing their tanks, outright ignoring the conscripts? That's only ~1200 points, so you'll be able to deep-strike onto all the non-conscript objectives with assault squads pretty easy once the IG tanks have been evaporated.
Even if you manage to kill their indirect fire tanks with LOS las cannons - this is a losing game too. The conscripts just move up and sit on objectives. 1200 points of preds have nothing for the 150 conscripts.
sossen wrote: I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
You only need two rhinos to get the tacticals I mentioned in to range, as you can fit two five-man tactical squads in each rhino. Rhinos are superb vehicles in this edition, incredibly difficult to destroy especially after popping smoke.
At toughness seven with ten wounds and a 3+ save, it takes on average five IG lascannon shots to apply damage to a single rhino that popped smoke, and it will on average do 3.5 damage per unsaved wound, meaning on average you'll need 13-15 lascannons or lascannon equivalents in order to destroy a single rhino. A manticore-- you know, that op-pls-nerf unit that these conscripts are defending?-- would cause on average 2 damage to the rhino on the turn the rhino popped smoke, which isn't even enough damage to reduce its stats!
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.
DING DING DING
The counter should be leadership - it's compeltely negated by a unit you were taking anyways to fill hq requirement.
Martel732 wrote: One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.
I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.
Try bringing 6 TLAC predators and nailing their tanks, outright ignoring the conscripts? That's only ~1200 points, so you'll be able to deep-strike onto all the non-conscript objectives with assault squads pretty easy once the IG tanks have been evaporated.
Well, in each of my three games there was AT LEAST 4 tanks I couldn't shoot. I keep upping my lascannon counts, but it's not helping. I'm considering going dual ravens one with DC one with assault terminators. I had such hopes for 8th and BA are back in the toilet already. Feth.
One of the neat things about predators is that they can move. Put 3 on each flank, and drive them down. If he can somehow hide from all of your tanks for 3 turns with his artillery when they're spread out on both flanks, then you're playing on a board I've never seen.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.
DING DING DING
Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete counter-unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability?
And how would you avoid such a massive volume of anti-infantry shooting tearing up the rest of the infantry in the game as well?
sossen wrote: I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
You only need two rhinos to get the tacticals I mentioned in to range, as you can fit two five-man tactical squads in each rhino. Rhinos are superb vehicles in this edition, incredibly difficult to destroy especially after popping smoke.
sossen wrote: I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.
And why should conscripts be deletable in 1 phase of shooting alone? And if they could, they would become useless against melee armies, since all the melee army would have to do is spend that 1 turn deleting them with shooting and then charge over their corpses in the same turn.
Being able to obliterate conscripts for roughly equal points with shooting alone completely removes their function in the IG armylist.
I agree with everything you just said. I have never implied that you should be able to kill conscripts with an equal amount of points at range in one or two turns.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.
There is a hard counter.
It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.
This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.
Terminators are also designed for "durability". Durability that they never actually get to experience in the game, though.
"Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability? "
Because that's what a hard counter does; it counters the scheme of a unit. Now, if you want a game with NO hard counters, that's fine, but 40K has plenty of hard counters right now.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.
There is a hard counter.
It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.
This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.
Snipers need LoS. IG can make their commissars immortal by abusing this fact. It's happened all three times I played against them because they assumed I had snipers somewhere. Plus, snipers work slowly. If the board isn't cleared up movement-wise by turn 3ish, BA have already lost the objective game on the way to being tabled.
I recently played a 3k game against Space Wolves. He had the standard space wolf stuff plus a Las predator and 2 knights. I think we called it after turn 3 because he had Bjorn and like 2 blood claws left.
Guess how many conscripts I used in the game and what they accomplished? I used 50 and had about 20 left. I think they killed 4 scouts and 3 blood claws. So, I think we can agree that offensively they are not very potent. What they DID do was psychologically impact my opponent. They also prevented a land raider crusader from just driving into that flank. He nearly destroyed 3 of my battle tanks, a Basilisk, and a dune crawler. He killed maybe a squad of guardsmen.
We played Dawn of war deployment, I think. So my front was 6' long. I don't think conscripts were the problem ... I think the guard infantry were immensely buffed with the rules changes. I think templates went away helped us, but also hamper us offensively. I think people are stuck in 7th edition ways of list building and playing. I think my buddy may have suffered a bit to his lack of cohesive battle plan and Target Priority.
We play with a lot more terrain, and specifically, LoS blocking stuff in comparison to 7th. The point is, the conscripts were there to sit on OBJs and block a portion of the table. He chose to wade into them when the vast majority of my army wasn't even behind them. He chose a list that was Uber elite despite our previous games showing him that he wanted more blood claws to be spit out of his flyers right in front of me because I can't shoot aircraft for anything.
I know this is 1 example. But I've played many games in 8th and not once has my opponent said, "the conscripts definitely won you that game!" You know what they do hate? All my my mortar heavy weapons squads. Deep striking Scions. My massed guard squads preventing back line deep strikes. My eversor Assassin hitting their back line followed up by rough Riders. My ratlings finishing off whatever character my Vindicare wounded.
With so many other annoying units, I am honestly blown away by how much the conscripts are hated. Lol
Martel732 wrote: Terminators are also designed for "durability". Durability that they never actually get to experience in the game, though.
"Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability? "
Because that's what a hard counter does; it counters the scheme of a unit. Now, if you want a game with NO hard counters, that's fine, but 40K has plenty of hard counters right now.
How are those storm bolters and powerfists helping their durability? Or those thunder hammers?
Also... yes, 40k has hard counters. But conscripts are engineered specifically to be durable. Their hard counter should not be something that can kill them - it should be something that can ignore them. The typical problem of 'tanks' in MMOs is that they need a taunt or some way to keep the enemy's attention. It's the same with conscripts - they're designed to be durable meat-shields for the rest of the army, and you can overcome that problem by shooting the rest of the army and ignoring them.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.
There is a hard counter.
It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.
This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.
It's been said a thousand times. You cannot snipe a commissar, in practice. It just isn't possible.
Martel732 wrote: Terminators are also designed for "durability". Durability that they never actually get to experience in the game, though.
"Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability? "
Because that's what a hard counter does; it counters the scheme of a unit. Now, if you want a game with NO hard counters, that's fine, but 40K has plenty of hard counters right now.
How are those storm bolters and powerfists helping their durability? Or those thunder hammers?
Also... yes, 40k has hard counters. But conscripts are engineered specifically to be durable. Their hard counter should not be something that can kill them - it should be something that can ignore them. The typical problem of 'tanks' in MMOs is that they need a taunt or some way to keep the enemy's attention. It's the same with conscripts - they're designed to be durable meat-shields for the rest of the army, and you can overcome that problem by shooting the rest of the army and ignoring them.
But that doesn't score me any objectives. That's just playing into the hands of the IG. He's denied me half the table with 300 pts of bodies. I can't get close without dying or getting tarpitted. The hard counter needs to kill them. That's why it's a hard counter.
And I bet equal points of conscripts have more offense than equal points of terminators. So why then, ever field a terminator?
Martel732 wrote: Terminators are also designed for "durability". Durability that they never actually get to experience in the game, though.
"Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability? "
Because that's what a hard counter does; it counters the scheme of a unit. Now, if you want a game with NO hard counters, that's fine, but 40K has plenty of hard counters right now.
How are those storm bolters and powerfists helping their durability? Or those thunder hammers?
Also... yes, 40k has hard counters. But conscripts are engineered specifically to be durable. Their hard counter should not be something that can kill them - it should be something that can ignore them. The typical problem of 'tanks' in MMOs is that they need a taunt or some way to keep the enemy's attention. It's the same with conscripts - they're designed to be durable meat-shields for the rest of the army, and you can overcome that problem by shooting the rest of the army and ignoring them.
But that doesn't score me any objectives. That's just playing into the hands of the IG. He's denied me half the table with 300 pts of bodies. I can't get close without dying or getting tarpitted. The hard counter needs to kill them. That's why it's a hard counter.
In my experience, you don't have to hard-counter a unit to score objectives that said unit is on. You just need to kill a few, and then get near the objective with tactical-marines who auto-score regardless of relative model-numbers. 'Killing a few' conscripts does not require a hard counter.
Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon
Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.
It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.
Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.
Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon
Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.
It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.
I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.
Martel732 wrote: Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.
If you're getting tabled by cannons, kill the cannons (the conscripts aren't tabling you, especially if they lose orders).
If you can't get to objectives, fly over the conscript squads. Blood Angels are literally the army that uses assault marines (Flying) units in the fluff.
Martel732 wrote: Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.
If you're getting tabled by cannons, kill the cannons (the conscripts aren't tabling you, especially if they lose orders).
If you can't get to objectives, fly over the conscript squads. Blood Angels are literally the army that uses assault marines (Flying) units in the fluff.
I'm getting tabled by everything. There is no single thing that I can point at other than conscripts that deny me half the table. Plasma scions don't help, that's for sure. Neither does the other cheap plasma, nor the cheap lascannons. Again, I faced 6 tanks, 4 tanks, and 5 tanks I couldn't even see. They can't be killed.
The conscripts are ON the objectives. Flying over them is useless. Plus, they will quadratap me the next turn because whatever I assault can walk out of combat. They must be dealt with at some point.
Martel732 wrote: Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.
Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon
Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.
It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.
I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.
70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.
Martel732 wrote: Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.
If you're getting tabled by cannons, kill the cannons (the conscripts aren't tabling you, especially if they lose orders).
If you can't get to objectives, fly over the conscript squads. Blood Angels are literally the army that uses assault marines (Flying) units in the fluff.
I'm getting tabled by everything. There is no single thing that I can point at other than conscripts that deny me half the table. Plasma scions don't help, that's for sure. Neither does the other cheap plasma, nor the cheap lascannons. Again, I faced 6 tanks, 4 tanks, and 5 tanks I couldn't even see. They can't be killed.
What terrain are you using that a tank is invisible from 3 directions? Because I've played on tables with LOS blocking terrain with LRBTs and my LRBTs are still eventually able to get LOS on basilisks, etc. with their guns, even if it takes a turn or two of maneuvering first.
EDIT: Guh, your edits after posting make it hard to follow your stuff.
If they're physically ON the objective, to the point where removing ~30-50% of the unit as casualties still doesn't let you get within 3" then they're probably only on that one, so they get 1 objective per squad of conscripts brought, and that's only on their half of the table. 100 conscripts get 2 objectives. Woo? are you losing to an army that can only deny you 2 objectives? My Baneblades can deny you three!
Martel732 wrote: Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.
Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon
Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.
It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.
I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.
70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.
Gotta be honest, and it sounds like whining, but 2 turns of delay is too slow against the IG. I need them gone NOW to play my game. I've got 1500 pts of OTHER IG stuff that I can't outshoot that I have to assault. I can't wait around 2 turns. I won't have anything left.
"What terrain are you using that a tank is invisible from 3 directions?"
They don't need 3 directions. They only need the front. Getting on the sides gets within the conscript quadratap death zone. As well as mass plasma, etc.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.
Martel732 wrote: Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.
Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon
Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.
It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.
I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.
70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.
Gotta be honest, and it sounds like whining, but 2 turns of delay is too slow against the IG. I need them gone NOW to play my game. I've got 1500 pts of OTHER IG stuff that I can't outshoot that I have to assault. I can't wait around 2 turns. I won't have anything left.
"What terrain are you using that a tank is invisible from 3 directions?"
They don't need 3 directions. They only need the front. Getting on the sides gets within the conscript quadratap death zone. As well as mass plasma, etc.
Stop saying conscript quadratap. I agree they need orders removed. You're on my team on that one. It's doubletap.
So:
Predator squadron up the flank will, on average, kill an artillery tank or two with every volley. The return fire from the conscripts won't kill a predator (1.8 wounds if in rapid-fire with all 50 in a blob... 3.6 wounds with FRFSRF).
Martel732 wrote: Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.
Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon
Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.
It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.
I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.
70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.
Gotta be honest, and it sounds like whining, but 2 turns of delay is too slow against the IG. I need them gone NOW to play my game. I've got 1500 pts of OTHER IG stuff that I can't outshoot that I have to assault. I can't wait around 2 turns. I won't have anything left.
"What terrain are you using that a tank is invisible from 3 directions?"
They don't need 3 directions. They only need the front. Getting on the sides gets within the conscript quadratap death zone. As well as mass plasma, etc.
sossen wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: 70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.
In two turns that's no problem.
So in two turns not enough? You really need to delete them in one shooting phase.
this is getting ridiculous.
You are trying to remove conscripts from the game.
I recently played a 3k game against Space Wolves. He had the standard space wolf stuff plus a Las predator and 2 knights. I think we called it after turn 3 because he had Bjorn and like 2 blood claws left.
Guess how many conscripts I used in the game and what they accomplished? I used 50 and had about 20 left. I think they killed 4 scouts and 3 blood claws. So, I think we can agree that offensively they are not very potent. What they DID do was psychologically impact my opponent. They also prevented a land raider crusader from just driving into that flank. He nearly destroyed 3 of my battle tanks, a Basilisk, and a dune crawler. He killed maybe a squad of guardsmen.
We played Dawn of war deployment, I think. So my front was 6' long. I don't think conscripts were the problem ... I think the guard infantry were immensely buffed with the rules changes. I think templates went away helped us, but also hamper us offensively. I think people are stuck in 7th edition ways of list building and playing. I think my buddy may have suffered a bit to his lack of cohesive battle plan and Target Priority.
We play with a lot more terrain, and specifically, LoS blocking stuff in comparison to 7th. The point is, the conscripts were there to sit on OBJs and block a portion of the table. He chose to wade into them when the vast majority of my army wasn't even behind them. He chose a list that was Uber elite despite our previous games showing him that he wanted more blood claws to be spit out of his flyers right in front of me because I can't shoot aircraft for anything.
I know this is 1 example. But I've played many games in 8th and not once has my opponent said, "the conscripts definitely won you that game!" You know what they do hate? All my my mortar heavy weapons squads. Deep striking Scions. My massed guard squads preventing back line deep strikes. My eversor Assassin hitting their back line followed up by rough Riders. My ratlings finishing off whatever character my Vindicare wounded.
With so many other annoying units, I am honestly blown away by how much the conscripts are hated. Lol
In a 3k game you brought 50 conscripts for 150 points. OFC they didn't have a big impact - it's only 5% of your army. Not to mention at 3k you can easily fill your entire deployment zone - you don't need conscripts in this situation. at 1500 to 2000. There is a lot more open space and you can literally deny all of it to your opponent with like 3 units of conscripts. Still though...lets say you brought 200 conscripts. You still would have won the game. Probably a lot easier.
They cost 150 pts + a commissar. I don't think they should get to cost 800 pts of BA two whole turns. That's a ridiculous return on investment. Yet, that's exactly what they do.
The IG people are in here acting like we have the old assault phase back. We don't. Assaulting your tanks does very little usually. The tank can back out and the entire IG list shoot my guys AGAIN. And AGAIN.
That's why I can't afford the two turn delay from a source as cheap as conscripts. I NEED to start chopping those tanks asap, or by turn 3 , I don't have a game.
As I said, preds can't see the artillery, so that doesn't work at all. Preds can't outflank. The terrain we are talking about is about 6 in high and 14 in wide.
Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.
Unit1126PLL wrote:So in two turns not enough? You really need to delete them in one shooting phase.
this is getting ridiculous.
You are trying to remove conscripts from the game.
I never said that anything of the sort. What I am saying is that heavy bolter devastators only kill one sixth of their own pts value of conscripts per turn. If you want to misconstrue the meaning of this stat then I will call you out on it.
For reference, the same heavy bolter devastators will kill one third of their own pts value of tactical marines or ork boyz per turn.
daedalus wrote: These threads haven't really progressed since Mel showed how to play Space Marines.
I'm done here. Everyone have fun.
I know you are bowing out, but my marine lists would crush her lists that use the units she's been suggesting. I know marine vs marine better than almost any matchup. It's a list tailoring "solution", and so is not valid.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.
There is a hard counter.
It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.
This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.
It's been said a thousand times. You cannot snipe a commissar, in practice. It just isn't possible.
It absolutely is.
You just have to accept that you might lose the snipers to return fire, if you chose to park them out in the open thinking they're invincible.
Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.
Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.
That's 33 pts. That's pathetic.
And what happens when those 11 Conscripts force a Morale test?
This is the issue here. Everyone wants to compare things in some kind of ridiculous vacuum where the Conscripts are always unstoppable.
Martel732 wrote: They cost 150 pts + a commissar. I don't think they should get to cost 800 pts of BA two whole turns. That's a ridiculous return on investment. Yet, that's exactly what they do.
The IG people are in here acting like we have the old assault phase back. We don't. Assault your tanks does very little usually. The tank can back out and the entire IG list shoot my guys AGAIN. And AGAIN.
That's why I can't afford the two turn delay from a source as cheap as conscripts. I NEED to start chopping those tanks asap, or by turn 3 , I don't have a game.
As I said, preds can't see the artillery, so that doesn't work at all. Preds can't outflank.
Multiassault the tanks...
And preds absolutely can outflank, just not the Outflank special rule. Put 3 against the board edge like this:
|P <The rest of the board> P| |P <The rest of the board> P| |P <The rest of the board> P|
And drive in a straight line. In two turns you'll be inside their DZ. On both sides.
I feel like I'm teaching space marines how to play space marines.
Unit1126PLL wrote:So in two turns not enough? You really need to delete them in one shooting phase.
this is getting ridiculous.
You are trying to remove conscripts from the game.
I never said that anything of the sort. What I am saying is that heavy bolter devastators only kill one sixth of their own pts value of conscripts per turn. If you want to misconstrue the meaning of this stat then I will call you out on it.
For reference, the same heavy bolter devastators will kill one third of their own pts value of tactical marines or ork boyz per turn.
Good thing tactical marines and ork boys aren't only paying for durability, then, and have a considerable amount of their points tied up in other things unlike conscripts.
Seriously, shooting at conscripts is literally giving the enemy what they want. It's like focusing the enemy tank in a PVP MMO.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable. Plus, we usually have some impassable along both edges at some point. So you have to move towards the center.
"Seriously, shooting at conscripts is literally giving the enemy what they want. It's like focusing the enemy tank in a PVP MMO."
I agree, but they block physical movement. With the old tank shock, I could play around it.
Martel732 wrote: Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.
I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.
Martel732 wrote: Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.
"Seriously, shooting at conscripts is literally giving the enemy what they want. It's like focusing the enemy tank in a PVP MMO."
I agree, but they block physical movement. With the old tank shock, I could play around it.
They only block movement if they're spread out a ton, which not only reduces their firepower by a lot, but also allows you to force temporary openings in their lines to charge through by shooting them with lesser guns.
Martel732 wrote: Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.
I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.
They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.
Martel732 wrote: Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.
"Seriously, shooting at conscripts is literally giving the enemy what they want. It's like focusing the enemy tank in a PVP MMO."
I agree, but they block physical movement. With the old tank shock, I could play around it.
They only block movement if they're spread out a ton, which not only reduces their firepower by a lot, but also allows you to force temporary openings in their lines to charge through by shooting them with lesser guns.
Yes,but they've got 1500-1600 points of OTHER STUFF to take care of those problems.
Martel732 wrote: Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.
I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.
They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.
So if they're not killing your tanks or your firebase, how are they tabling you every game?
sossen wrote: If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.
Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.
I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.
Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.
Is it really worth using heavy bolters?
you are wasting an extra Strength.
I figure ether going primarus bolt guns or the other way with assault cannons of some sort would be more efficient no?
Martel732 wrote: Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.
I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.
They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.
So if they're not killing your tanks or your firebase, how are they tabling you every game?
They kill them LAST. They cripple my chop and then they outgun me 2:1 or 3:1 and it's over before it starts.
sossen wrote: If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.
Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.
I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.
You're not teaching me anything. I've used predators for 20 years. I was well aware I could EVENTUALLY get LoS on artillery tanks. It's a day late and a dollar short, though. What you suggest would only work with old outflank, and even then, only on a good reserve roll.
Martel732 wrote: Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.
I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.
They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.
So if they're not killing your tanks or your firebase, how are they tabling you every game?
Okay so I know I said I was out but I can't help this:
They kill them LAST. They cripple my chop and then they outgun me 2:1 or 3:1 and it's over before it starts.
sossen wrote: If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.
Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.
I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.
You're not teaching me anything. I've used predators for 20 years. I was well aware I could EVENTUALLY get LoS on artillery tanks. It's a day late and a dollar short, though.
You know in matched play you can have your 800 points of choppy in reserve until the predators make it up the board to laser the artillery, right? Since you control when they come in, and they come in automatically on a turn of your choosing.
Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.
Is it really worth using heavy bolters?
you are wasting an extra Strength.
I figure ether going primarus bolt guns or the other way with assault cannons of some sort would be more efficient no?
Assault cannons are more efficient in this case but heavy bolters are quite cheap for what they do. Twin AC on a razorback is killing 1/5 of its own cost of conscripts per turn, though getting into range isn't trivial given that it doesn't have potms.
Martel732 wrote: Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.
I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.
I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.
They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.
So if they're not killing your tanks or your firebase, how are they tabling you every game?
Okay so I know I said I was out but I can't help this:
They kill them LAST. They cripple my chop and then they outgun me 2:1 or 3:1 and it's over before it starts.
sossen wrote: If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.
Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.
I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.
You're not teaching me anything. I've used predators for 20 years. I was well aware I could EVENTUALLY get LoS on artillery tanks. It's a day late and a dollar short, though.
You know in matched play you can have your 800 points of choppy in reserve until the predators make it up the board to laser the artillery, right? Since you control when they come in, and they come in automatically on a turn of your choosing.
You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.
There is a hard counter.
It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.
This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.
Not every army has Snipers, and some of them are of questionable value in this scenario. Deathmarks, for instance, have a 24" range and function more as anti-Deep Strike than actually being a sniper.
They will then focus weapons that would have been directed at the infantry on the tanks. T7 is surprisingly vulnerable to wyverns, unfortunately. The wyvern is one weapon system for which I think the new system misrepresents badly compared to the old system.
BA, even more than other marines, must be able to achieve threat saturation. Reserves takes away from that, and conscripts basically ensure that I can never achieve threat saturation. And that's basically the long and short of it. Maybe Ultras can scam in enough Rowboat rerolls to come out ahead. But BA are fethed right now as far as I can tell. I must waste hundreds of die rolls on 3 pt models in most game scenarios. Period.
In some ways, it's even more humiliating than 7th ed Tau. At least I died in glorious pie plate blazes shot by immortal battle suits instead of losing to fearless scrubs.
Maybe chapter tactics will change the equation for the vanilla marines. The raven guard look super slick.
You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?
Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.
conscripts dont need to kill preds to make them useless - all they need to do is assault them and they can't shoot. Holy moley. One of the main rules in warfare is concentration of force. Dividing your own forces is helping the opponent. True in real life - true in this game too. Like are you seriously suggesting he reserve a whole bunch of units - and drive 9 las preds up the feild to get an angle on his artillery and just ignoring the fact hes probably losing 2-3 preds a turn to the IG gun line?
Martel732 wrote: They will then focus weapons that would have been directed at the infantry on the tanks. T7 is surprisingly vulnerable to wyverns, unfortunately. The wyvern is one weapon system for which I think the new system misrepresents badly compared to the old system.
BA, even more than other marines, must be able to achieve threat saturation. Reserves takes away from that, and conscripts basically ensure that I can never achieve threat saturation. And that's basically the long and short of it. Maybe Ultras can scam in enough Rowboat rerolls to come out ahead. But BA are fethed right now as far as I can tell.
In some ways, it's even more humiliating than 7th ed Tau. At least I died in glorious pie plate blazes shot by immortal battle suits instead of losing to fearless scrubs.
Maybe chapter tactics will change the equation for the vanilla marines. The raven guard look super slick.
My math gets 1.3 wounds per wyvern against T7 3+... so no?
Conscripts would need to kill waveserpents and falcons, though. Wave serpents/falcons smoke the IG lascannons and then spend the rest of the game slaughtering everything else? Does that work?
"Your loss. I would! I love tanks. Especially tank hunting tanks. "
I have so many lists that would smoke any list with 1200 pts of lascannon predators in it. I can't even see how anyone thinks this is viable. That is hyper overspecializing.
I guess when Space Marines can do a shooting alpha-strike as well as Tau, can do shooting attrition as well as Guard, can melee as well as Tyranids, and can psyker as well as Daemons, "balance" will finally be achieved.
You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?
Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.
conscripts dont need to kill preds to make them useless - all they need to do is assault them and they can't shoot. Holy moley. One of the main rules in warfare is concentration of force. Dividing your own forces is helping the opponent. True in real life - true in this game too. Like are you seriously suggesting he reserve a whole bunch of units - and drive 9 las preds up the feild to get an angle on his artillery and just ignoring the fact hes probably losing 2-3 preds a turn to the IG gun line?
6* las preds.
If the conscripts charge them, while they're on either flank, they open up the center for his deep-strikers (voila!)
And 2-3 preds a turn? To what? The IG don't have THAT many lascannons. You need 11 IG lascannon shots per predator on average.
ross-128 wrote: I guess when Space Marines can do a shooting alpha-strike as well as Tau, can do shooting attrition as well as Guard, can melee as well as Tyranids, and can psyker as well as Daemons, "balance" will finally be achieved.
No. There's just a huge problem with generalists in this game. I'm really looking for 800 pts of my stuff to not be turned off by 150 pts. But they are. I already said that vanilla might be better off here than BA as well. Once again.
I can definitely say if a Guard list has 33 lascannons in it (that's 660 points just for the guns, never mind the things carrying them) or equivalent AT, they probably don't have very many points left for conscripts.
You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?
Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.
conscripts dont need to kill preds to make them useless - all they need to do is assault them and they can't shoot. Holy moley. One of the main rules in warfare is concentration of force. Dividing your own forces is helping the opponent. True in real life - true in this game too. Like are you seriously suggesting he reserve a whole bunch of units - and drive 9 las preds up the feild to get an angle on his artillery and just ignoring the fact hes probably losing 2-3 preds a turn to the IG gun line?
6* las preds.
If the conscripts charge them, while they're on either flank, they open up the center for his deep-strikers (voila!)
And 2-3 preds a turn? To what? The IG don't have THAT many lascannons. You need 11 IG lascannon shots per predator on average.
One thing you have to watch out for is smite spam by primaris psykers and astropaths. And don't forget about the scion squads. Each member of a plasma scion command squad deals 1.5 wounds to a predator when they drop.
You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?
Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.
conscripts dont need to kill preds to make them useless - all they need to do is assault them and they can't shoot. Holy moley. One of the main rules in warfare is concentration of force. Dividing your own forces is helping the opponent. True in real life - true in this game too. Like are you seriously suggesting he reserve a whole bunch of units - and drive 9 las preds up the feild to get an angle on his artillery and just ignoring the fact hes probably losing 2-3 preds a turn to the IG gun line?
6* las preds.
If the conscripts charge them, while they're on either flank, they open up the center for his deep-strikers (voila!)
And 2-3 preds a turn? To what? The IG don't have THAT many lascannons. You need 11 IG lascannon shots per predator on average.
Hummm...They have a whole host of weapons that murder multi wound modles. The worst offender is obviously the manticore. Battle cannons hurt way more than a las cannon too.
ross-128 wrote: I can definitely say if a Guard list has 33 lascannons in it (that's 660 points just for the guns, never mind the things carrying them) or equivalent AT, they probably don't have very many points left for conscripts.
That don't need that many, because no reasonable BA player is bringing six predators. That orks wound on a '5'. There are many more matchups than IG that make these wacky "counters" nonsense. Predators are quite flimsy for their cost. They're better than before, but still very glass cannony.
Half the IG defenders in this thread are defending the version of conscripts that can't take orders, which doesn't exist. I think most of the people still arguing that conscripts are OP are talking to the other half, so please keep that in mind.
As I'm reading more and more, it looks like ALL of the IG defenders in this thread don't actually field conscripts - or at least not conscripts with the OP support line up of commissars/officers/searchlights. And that also makes it hypocritical to accuse the complainers of not playing against IG. I can't speak for everyone, but why on earth would I be here complaining if I wasn't struggling against conscripts? I haven't been able to win against conscripts even once yet in 8e.
Deathypoo wrote: Half the IG defenders in this thread are defending the version of conscripts that can't take orders, which doesn't exist. I think most of the people still arguing that conscripts are OP are talking to the other half, so please keep that in mind.
As I'm reading more and more, it looks like ALL of the IG defenders in this thread don't actually field conscripts - or at least not conscripts with the OP support line up of commissars/officers/searchlights. And that also makes it hypocritical to accuse the complainers of not playing against IG. I can't speak for everyone, but why on earth would I be here complaining if I wasn't struggling against conscripts? I haven't been able to win against conscripts even once yet in 8e.
Because they need to teach you your army. Clearly.
Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.
I have so many lists that would smoke any list with 1200 pts of lascannon predators in it. I can't even see how anyone thinks this is viable. That is hyper overspecializing.
This. That list would be curb stomped immediately it's hilarious.
The other side of the coin is that people haven't seen the poundings I've put on Orks and Tyranids with my tricky BA tech. Hordes aren't winning against me. CONSCRIPTS are. I've had DC plow through 80 hormagaunts over the course of one game before. I don't get an "over the course of" against IG. So what's different? Did I magically forget how to play BA in those games? Oblique attacks work great against most Ork/Nid lists. IG? Doesn't give a feth.
Well, consider this: you have an army where just about every model is both WS3+ and BS3+. They tend to have a roughly equal number of ranged and shooting attacks, of roughly equal strength. They have chapter masters that let them re-roll hits in shooting AND melee. You've got Rhinos that can absorb wounds about as well as Conscripts, while also performing the function of letting you get inside melee range quickly.
And you're here like "I want to shoot Guard off the board point for point, screw the other half of my stat line. Don't teach me how to play my army."
Maybe you should pay more attention to the fact that you've got two phases where your army is good at doing damage, so you should look for ways to leverage both? Otherwise you're literally wasting points, and then wondering why the result is so inefficient.
Now, I will say this: the army-wide krak grenades are a fairly large handicap to Space Marines right now. Because krak grenades ain't free, they're 1 point a model for armies that don't start with them. And with the current "one grenade rule", they're completely useless.
I've mentioned wanting krak grenades to return as a wargear option for Guard, but to be honest with the current grenade rules I'd never take them even if they did return. Or at most I would only hand it to a single model, whose sole job in the squad is to throw that grenade when he's not shooting his lasgun. If Space Marines could get rid of all their krak grenades to shave a point off every model, I'm sure they'd jump at the chance. Then again, I expected Space Marine players to be excited about "you can assault after firing Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons now", but all we got is "I want to shoot things off the table".
But really the only balanced way to handle "Space Marines pay for a lot of things that they rarely use" is to get rid of those things that they're not using, so they don't have to pay for it. But then you basically end up with a copy of a different faction's models. Or the ability to basically build any other faction's models, if you make all the stuff optional. If you do have all that stuff in your kit, it's on you to put it to work. Otherwise you're wasting points, and that's all there is to it.
I never said that. Not once. I'm looking for TAC solutions to 3pt dudes that are immune to psychology. BA seemingly have none.
Doesn't have to be shooting. But assaulting is not getting it done because of the damage coming in and damage after the IG jumps out of CC and shoots me more. I'm already doing both. But I can't throw enough dice, even using both phases. Punching through a 5+ save when wounding on a 3+ is slow going.
Marines can not leverage the WS 3+ and BS 3+ against guard with conscripts in the mix. They can't. The conscripts physically and mathematically prevent this if used properly. That's what I'm saying.
sossen wrote: If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.
Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.
I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.
Martel732 wrote: The other side of the coin is that people haven't seen the poundings I've put on Orks and Tyranids with my tricky BA tech. Hordes aren't winning against me. CONSCRIPTS are. I've had DC plow through 80 hormagaunts over the course of one game before. I don't get an "over the course of" against IG. So what's different? Did I magically forget how to play BA in those games? Oblique attacks work great against most Ork/Nid lists. IG? Doesn't give a feth.
Just a guess: You're getting shot.
Problem is you're not committed to the idea of shooting back very well. You have something you feel works against a bunch of armies, just not this combo of stuff. Instead of adapting to it by changing your overall strategy, you're saying it's OP because you cant do the same thing against this army, that you do against other armies.
I'm saying that I can't come up with an overall strategy for BA that gets around what the IG is doing. I had very different lists against the Orks and Tyranids each time. One of my lists even had missile launcher devs. *gasp*
The solutions for hordes in put in lists don't work vs Conscripts. The anti-tank I put in doesn't work vs tanks that are out of LoS. These things work vs Orks and Tyranids. That's my position.
The guy up above said to shoot less. You say to shoot more. My position gets stronger.
The guy up above said to shoot less. You say to shoot more. My position gets stronger.
Don't know who said shoot less, although it doesnt do anything for your position.
Post your list, and post the IG list. Basic strategy for marines vs. IG i use is general advance, and only deal with infantry at close range, first order of business is to trim down the enemy tanks/artillery.
I'll try to at least audio record my next match and take a picture of the table. But each quarter usually has one large LoS blocker and then a couple smaller things in the middle, and a few small things for infantry to get cover in.
I'm not using a set list yet. I try to make lists that have a lot of vehicles or no vehicles. For obvious reasons.
"Well, consider this: you have an army where just about every model is both WS3+ and BS3+. They tend to have a roughly equal number of ranged and shooting attacks, of roughly equal strength. They have chapter masters that let them re-roll hits in shooting AND melee. You've got Rhinos that can absorb wounds about as well as Conscripts, while also performing the function of letting you get inside melee range quickly.
And you're here like "I want to shoot Guard off the board point for point, screw the other half of my stat line. Don't teach me how to play my army."
Maybe you should pay more attention to the fact that you've got two phases where your army is good at doing damage, so you should look for ways to leverage both? Otherwise you're literally wasting points, and then wondering why the result is so inefficient. "
This implied the approach of shooting less. But most BA models have two base attacks at best, so with chainsword, you get 3 per dude, which clears a little less than one kill per dude with no rerolls.
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
Look, I know all this. But I'm starting this process with half my list dead or crippled. And I don't DARE get within quadratap range. Kinda hurts the assault scheme, eh?
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
You aren't shooting when you are dead.
Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.
From my read, what the poster is saying is that you sjould be looking to both shoot and assault. Which is correct for space marines vs. Guard. Do everything and keep killing.
They can't issue FRFSRF in melee, or after falling back. Remember that bit about Rhinos soaking wounds? They can do that and shut down FRFSRF at the same time.
So now you've both doubled your own damage, cut your opponent's damage in half, and diverted some of that damage onto a cheap damage sponge.
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
You aren't shooting when you are dead.
Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.
And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.
Insectum7 wrote: From my read, what the poster is saying is that you sjould be looking to both shoot and assault. Which is correct for space marines vs. Guard. Do everything and keep killing.
This is obvious. I'm running out of steam doing this, though. I can't get enough killy/pt to chop through the sheer wounds.
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
You aren't shooting when you are dead.
Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.
And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.
Forget the conscripts. The other 1.5K pts of Guard are killing your dudes. The conscripts just physically block me from assaulting what I need to assault. They raise the temporal cost of assault to where it is not viable.
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
You aren't shooting when you are dead.
Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.
And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them. And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.
GBITF requires the entire unit of conscripts be within the range of the order? Didn't know that. (sarcasm)
They don't shoot when they're dead either. Keep killing.
Marines run out first. That's the fundamental axiom here. After every one of my fight phases, the IG guy hits me with 3 wyverns on his turn.
I gotta see lists at this point, man. Wyverns average less than 2 dead marines a turn. 1.7 to be exact. That doesn't exactly look insurmountable.
It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.
Colonel Cross wrote: I've definitely seen complaints earlier about the # of shots conscripts could fire with FRFSRF. They always included max # of shots possible.
In the conscripts thread, we've taken to calling them Shrodinger's Conscripts.
They can rapid fire with all 50 guys, with FRFSRF, while commissar buffed, while protecting their officers from snipers with terrain, and bubble wrapping their officers from deep strike or jump troop assassination out in the open so that there's no conga line to prevent any conscripts from shooting, all against an opponent who cannot charge them first with anything, or possibly maneuver a squad to prevent a withdraw move. Oh...and during all this the Conscript squad is screening all friendly tanks at the same time without stretching out far enough to prevent shooting woes at the same time they're bubble wrapping them and preventing deepstriking. All on a table that doesn't provide enemy any real cover, but still has enough blocking terrain to hide friendly manticores.
Colonel Cross wrote: I've definitely seen complaints earlier about the # of shots conscripts could fire with FRFSRF. They always included max # of shots possible.
In the conscripts thread, we've taken to calling them Shrodinger's Conscripts.
They can rapid fire with all 50 guys, with FRFSRF, while commissar buffed, while protecting their officers from snipers with terrain, and bubble wrapping their officers from deep strike or jump troop assassination out in the open so that there's no conga line to prevent any conscripts from shooting, all against an opponent who cannot charge them first with anything, or possibly maneuver a squad to prevent a withdraw move. Oh...and during all this the Conscript squad is screening all friendly tanks at the same time without stretching out far enough to prevent shooting woes at the same time they're bubble wrapping them and preventing deepstriking. All on a table that doesn't provide enemy any real cover, but still has enough blocking terrain to hide friendly manticores.
I'm primarily protesting the durability. Which is separate from their offense, really.
It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad. It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.
That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.
I wouldn't use the big man either. I think he's silly.
It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.
That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.
I just said 75 in an infantry list. The IG can cut that to pieces in 3 turns. Especially if you stumble into a quadratap or two.
My guys have to leave cover to go assault the IG. The alternative is staying in cover and slowly dying and not scoring.
It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.
That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.
80 marines with no wargear is over 1000 points.
Can you share your list? It doesn't sound very viable.
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
You aren't shooting when you are dead.
Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.
And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.
GBITF requires the entire unit of conscripts be within the range of the order? Didn't know that. (sarcasm)
Yes, yes we know. The magical "tail" of the Conscript Squad giving them untouchable range...
but that does not change that an officer has to be sat within 6 inches of the Conscripts to give them the Order and that if they receive Get Back Into the Fight then they cannot be given First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.
It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.
That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.
80 marines with no wargear is over 1000 points.
Can you share your list? It doesn't sound very viable.
20 of my dudes are scouts. Which I think loses me first turn, though. I might need to rework that.
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
You aren't shooting when you are dead.
Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.
And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them. And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.
GBITF requires the entire unit of conscripts be within the range of the order? Didn't know that. (sarcasm)
Yes, yes we know. The magical "tail" of the Conscript Squad giving them untouchable range... but that does not change that an officer has to be sat within 6 inches of the Conscripts to give them the Order and that if they receive Get Back Into the Fight then they cannot be given First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.
But I'm sure you knew that.../sarcasm
Considering I didn't dispute it, why would you assume otherwise? I don't reply to every strawman presented in this thread.
And it's not a "magical tail," it's the "used in practice so you can hind characters inside buildings" tail, which you see pretty much every damn game.
Forget the orders. Just having 50 wounds with 24" ranged attacks immune to psychology is super abusive in and of itself from what I have experienced.
What's the difference between the game where my DC killed like 80 hormagaunts and games where I've failed to kill even 30 conscripts? The Tyranids weren't shooting the piss out of me with the rest of their list.
Insectum7 wrote: From my read, what the poster is saying is that you sjould be looking to both shoot and assault. Which is correct for space marines vs. Guard. Do everything and keep killing.
This is obvious. I'm running out of steam doing this, though. I can't get enough killy/pt to chop through the sheer wounds.
Then use cover better. Hang back some of your units more. Field some disposable chaff for charges/baiting overwatch...
I'm going to be honest here Martel, you're just seeming to want to have an easy win against Guard.
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
You aren't shooting when you are dead.
Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.
And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.
Forget the conscripts. The other 1.5K pts of Guard are killing your dudes. The conscripts just physically block me from assaulting what I need to assault. They raise the temporal cost of assault to where it is not viable.
And if the Conscripts are so physically deep that your snipers can't get range or LOS to get range on the Commissars/Officers, then most of the Guard army can't get range to shoot either.
"I'm going to be honest here Martel, you're just seeming to want to have an easy win against Guard. "
I'm going to be honest here, I'm just asking to not be tabled by having 800 pts neutralized by 150 pts. There will never be anything easy about beating IG in 8th ed, since their tanks are super resilient to assault now and their dudes can waltz out of CC at will.
But I'm sure I was just asking for easy wins against Tau and Eldar in 7th. Yeah, that was it. The 40 lascannon soaking riptides and 295 GMCs were necessary to have a fair game vs BA.
ross-128 wrote: No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.
Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?
Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.
Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.
You aren't shooting when you are dead.
Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.
And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.
GBITF requires the entire unit of conscripts be within the range of the order? Didn't know that. (sarcasm)
Yes, yes we know. The magical "tail" of the Conscript Squad giving them untouchable range...
but that does not change that an officer has to be sat within 6 inches of the Conscripts to give them the Order and that if they receive Get Back Into the Fight then they cannot be given First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.
But I'm sure you knew that.../sarcasm
Considering I didn't dispute it, why would you assume otherwise? I don't reply to every strawman presented in this thread.
Obviously I would assume such because you're continually arguing the point and your only reply is to try to denigrate others' arguments as strawman.
And it's not a "magical tail," it's the "used in practice so you can hind characters inside buildings" tail, which you see pretty much every damn game.
And if the tail is being used, then you're losing some firepower from the Conscripts by doing so.
It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.
That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.
80 marines with no wargear is over 1000 points.
Can you share your list? It doesn't sound very viable.
Congratulations. That leaves 940 points left for wargear, Characters, etc.
I wasn't saying anything in particular about composition. I was just pointing out that all of your assault units have guns, and a pretty good ballistic skill to use them with. Also, all of your shooting units have melee attacks, a pretty good weapon skill to use them with, and nothing to stop them from charging.
So, regardless of whether a particular unit leans one way or the other, you still shouldn't be leaving the other half of their kit off the table.
Of course, some shooting support to suppress and distract their tanks won't hurt. But here's a twist: if you want more firepower per point, go with a Predator. If you want more wounds, go with a Razorback.
A 102 point Predator only gets 1 extra wound over a 65 point Razorback. Their saves and toughness are identical. A Lascannon Predator pays about 18 points per wound, a lascannon Razorback pays 11.5. An assault cannon Razorback pays 10 points per wound. IG's multiwound shooting will typically do 2 (autocannons, D3 damage weapons) or 3.5 (d6 damage weapons) damage on an unsaved wound, until you get to superheavies.
However, the Predator effectively has 4 weapon hardpoints to the Razorback's 2. It effectively can put lascannons on the board for 50.5 points per lascannon to the Razorback's 57.5.
And that's purely looking at using the Razorback as a tank. If you squeeze some units into the transport space you won't have to bring as many Rhinos.
And if the tail is being used, then you're losing some firepower from the Conscripts by doing so.
The guardsmen fit in about a block 6~7" to a side. The officers can stand 6" behind the back. That means you need to get 12-13" past the front of the conscript unit just to reach the officer on the charge even before they add a tail. Each conscript in the tail extends that range by a further 3" It's not like the tail is base-to-base guardsmen across the table, I've never seen one get longer than 4 guys, and that was just sloppy placement that could easily have been 3.
6% of the unit, aka 9 points, "wasted" to ensure the officers that are absolutely vital to its function are allowed to survive. It doesn't take a genius guard player to figure it out.
I'm aware of the temporary advantages the razorback has. I don't own any TLAC razors, but I really have a hard time believing that these will magically fix everything, since players who DO have them are having the same problems.
Fielding more lascannons actually bit me in the ass last time, because I couldn't even see 5 of the targets!
Martel732 wrote: I have a hard time believing 80 marines beat a 2K IG list with any consistency.
I think I play with a different strategic emphasis than you do. I like to double down on lots of marine bodies, it means my heavy weapons fire for longer and it means I have more basic guns to continually pepper little guys with.
But truth be told right now I'm playing Chaos. Which is kinda fun since they get two Heavy Weapons in a basic Squad instead of one.
Martel732 wrote: I have a hard time believing 80 marines beat a 2K IG list with any consistency.
I think I play with a different strategic emphasis than you do. I like to double down on lots of marine bodies, it means my heavy weapons fire for longer and it means I have more basic guns to continually pepper little guys with.
But truth be told right now I'm playing Chaos. Which is kinda fun since they get two Heavy Weapons in a basic Squad instead of one.
You need a lot more than peppering to trim down conscript squads. You need 100's of peppering. You'll be below 50 bodies in turn 3 almost guaranteed. I just don't see how your emphasis changes anything. Especially if you guys never make it to assault, you've left a bunch of damage on the table.
Martel732 wrote: I have a hard time believing 80 marines beat a 2K IG list with any consistency.
I think I play with a different strategic emphasis than you do. I like to double down on lots of marine bodies, it means my heavy weapons fire for longer and it means I have more basic guns to continually pepper little guys with.
But truth be told right now I'm playing Chaos. Which is kinda fun since they get two Heavy Weapons in a basic Squad instead of one.
You need a lot more than peppering to trim down conscript squads. You need 100's of peppering. You'll be below 50 bodies in turn 3 almost guaranteed. I just don't see how your emphasis changes anything. Especially if you guys never make it to assault, you've left a bunch of damage on the table.
What were you saying about Wyvern's that average less than 2 marine kills a turn? "It adds up."
You will run out of marines far before they run out of IG bodies. That's the problem. A wyvern killing 2 marines is not only two boltguns gone, but all the potential assault damage as well. Generalists just don't take the losses as well. The wyvern killing 2 marines is still a win for IG. Peppering 4 or 5 conscripts means nothing to the IG.
Martel732 wrote: You will run out of marines far before they run out of IG bodies. That's the problem. A wyvern killing 2 marines is not only two boltguns gone, but all the potential assault damage as well. Generalists just don't take the losses as well. The wyvern killing 2 marines is still a win for IG. Peppering 4 or 5 conscripts means nothing to the IG.
But the Lascannons are killing vehicles, and if only 50 marines out of the original 80 marines make it to the conscripts, things look pretty good for me. I'm not sure if you know this, but basic marines are much better at killing conscripts than conscripts are good at killing marines.
Martel732 wrote: You will run out of marines far before they run out of IG bodies. That's the problem. A wyvern killing 2 marines is not only two boltguns gone, but all the potential assault damage as well. Generalists just don't take the losses as well. The wyvern killing 2 marines is still a win for IG. Peppering 4 or 5 conscripts means nothing to the IG.
But the Lascannons are killing vehicles, and if only 50 marines out of the original 80 marines make it to the conscripts, things look pretty good for me. I'm not sure if you know this, but basic marines are much better at killing conscripts than conscripts are good at killing marines.
You still lose with 50 marines. You'll kill a bunch of conscripts, they back out of combat, and then 1500 pts of IG light you up. Rinse and repeat. You will run out of marines before you even get to their tanks. Your lascannons can't see their tanks. Therefore, they can't silence them. Maybe some sparse boards allow you to do this.
You probably don't have 50 marines because your devastators probably aren't moving.
Martel732 wrote: I have a hard time believing 80 marines beat a 2K IG list with any consistency.
I think I play with a different strategic emphasis than you do. I like to double down on lots of marine bodies, it means my heavy weapons fire for longer and it means I have more basic guns to continually pepper little guys with.
But truth be told right now I'm playing Chaos. Which is kinda fun since they get two Heavy Weapons in a basic Squad instead of one.
You need a lot more than peppering to trim down conscript squads. You need 100's of peppering. You'll be below 50 bodies in turn 3 almost guaranteed. I just don't see how your emphasis changes anything. Especially if you guys never make it to assault, you've left a bunch of damage on the table.
What were you saying about Wyvern's that average less than 2 marine kills a turn? "It adds up."
Wyverns are far from the best answer to MEQ in the AM arsenal. Heavy bolter HWT squads kill half their cost in tactical marines each turn, and that's assuming no upgrades. Even the mortar HWT isn't far off, they kill about 42% of their cost in tactical marines. Unless you stay in cover, but then you probably aren't going to be able to assault and you still won't win a shootout.
Okay. Which 1500 pts of IG should I use? They get a lot of cheap plasma. How much plasma?
I just mention wyverns because the guys I play always have 3 for the nid and Ork players. So they aren't even optimizing vs marines and still massacring BA.
Oh, I see. You're assuming that 20 Lascannons for a few turns have been completely ineffective against IG tanks for some reason, and at the same time no damage has been done to the Conscripts with advancing bolter fire in the meantime. Got it.
Martel732 wrote: Okay. Which 1500 pts of IG should I use? They get a lot of cheap plasma. How much plasma?
I just mention wyverns because the guys I play always have 3 for the nid and Ork players. So they aren't even optimizing vs marines and still massacring BA.
Tournament guard lists will have 6+ manticores or wyverns, or a mix of both. This isn't anything new, and you can easily reference this content.
When you're rolling 12D6 to determine your shots, it gets a bit nuts.
I hope you like having marines in squads of 10. In reality the guard player doesn't need to kill all 10. 7 should be enough. And they shall absolutely know fear, and flee if brought in squads of 10.
Oh and Death Company absolutely get the morale shaft. Leadership 7 for a DC squad. That is the same as a base Guard squad. #balanced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: Oh, I see. You're assuming that 20 Lascannons for a few turns have been completely ineffective against IG tanks for some reason, and at the same time no damage has been done to the Conscripts with advancing bolter fire in the meantime. Got it.
I'm not interested in this conversation anymore.
Because manticores and wyverns. We're trying to explain the competitive meta to you, you're just not accepting it. To be fair, people do bring devastator squads to tournaments - just not a lot of people do - and they use missile launchers, they're more flexible than lascannons.
And if the tail is being used, then you're losing some firepower from the Conscripts by doing so.
The guardsmen fit in about a block 6~7" to a side. The officers can stand 6" behind the back. That means you need to get 12-13" past the front of the conscript unit just to reach the officer on the charge even before they add a tail. Each conscript in the tail extends that range by a further 3" It's not like the tail is base-to-base guardsmen across the table, I've never seen one get longer than 4 guys, and that was just sloppy placement that could easily have been 3.
6% of the unit, aka 9 points, "wasted" to ensure the officers that are absolutely vital to its function are allowed to survive. It doesn't take a genius guard player to figure it out.
It also doesn't take a genius Guard player to figure out that your math has been garbage, seeing as how it has been continuously talking about 50 Conscripts firing.
Each marine equivalent has at least 3 bolter equivalent attacks between shooting and assault. These 3 attacks kill 0.88 conscripts. Determination of the effects of special/heavy weapons is a bit difficult. Notably, sternguard get 2 shots and 2 attacks, but these are rare in 8th from what I've seen.
Now the next issue is all 50 marines going after one blob, or are they spread across the battlefield somewhat?
At any rate, let's say your 50 marines get to the conscript line and all get to double tap range. The total damage output is 44 from bolteresque attacks. Now this is neglecting special/heavy and overwatch.
Marines are losing damage from meltaguns, gaining with plasma, and gaining with flamers.
Meltaguns are -0.3 conscripts
Plasmaguns are +0.5 conscripts
Flamers are +0.9 conscripts
Notice here that you are paying quite a bit for weapons that are only netting you 3 pts tops extra damage! That's the power of 3pt wounds with 5+ armor.
So let's say 15 of your dudes are up a net 1.1 in damage. That's an even spread of flamer, plasma, melta. So that's 44+15 = 59 conscripts dead total. So, you've killed one blob or knocked two down to 40%. With 50 marines and maxxed wargear.
Somewhere in here, you lose two dudes to overwatch in the assault and the surviving conscripts kill 1.5 more marines in CC.
59 conscripts is 177 pts, and you only paid 45.5 pts do it. However, the rest of the IG list is almost certainly going to cause far in excess of 131.5 pts of damage to your remaining 46-47 marines. AND the conscripts still have two 40% blobs or one full blob. So, you have to do the same thing next turn. Again, the conscripts are buying TIME more than anything else. And they are getting this time for a pittance.
Assuming you wipe them in shooting, you have still been prevented from moving forward fully and you take yet ANOTHER barrage from the rest of the IG list. Even if these barrages only wipe say 10 marines each, you are now down to 27 marines tops to take out all the remaining tanks and cap objectives. I must tell you 1000+ IG only killing 10 marines is VERY optimistic.
The threat of beta strike from plasma scions alone makes this almost certain suicide.
Insectum7 wrote: Oh, I see. You're assuming that 20 Lascannons for a few turns have been completely ineffective against IG tanks for some reason, and at the same time no damage has been done to the Conscripts with advancing bolter fire in the meantime. Got it.
I'm not interested in this conversation anymore.
Because manticores and wyverns. We're trying to explain the competitive meta to you, you're just not accepting it. To be fair, people do bring devastator squads to tournaments - just not a lot of people do - and they use missile launchers, they're more flexible than lascannons.
Tournament tables I've seen don't offer the type of cover to completely hide 6 tanks. That's why I don't buy it. I believe the bit about Missile Launchers, and have experimented with putting more in my army, but traditionally I'm a Lascannon guy, and since I tend towards more bodies (aka more Bolters) I probably tend to favor Lascannons more than average as I have more Bolters around.
Insectum7 wrote: Oh, I see. You're assuming that 20 Lascannons for a few turns have been completely ineffective against IG tanks for some reason, and at the same time no damage has been done to the Conscripts with advancing bolter fire in the meantime. Got it.
I'm not interested in this conversation anymore.
Because manticores and wyverns. We're trying to explain the competitive meta to you, you're just not accepting it. To be fair, people do bring devastator squads to tournaments - just not a lot of people do - and they use missile launchers, they're more flexible than lascannons.
Tournament tables I've seen don't offer the type of cover to completely hide 6 tanks. That's why I don't buy it. I believe the bit about Missile Launchers, and have experimented with putting more in my army, but traditionally I'm a Lascannon guy, and since I tend towards more bodies (aka more Bolters) I probably tend to favor Lascannons more than average as I have more Bolters around.
Many ITC boards have pieces where you can hide 3, though. If the deployment is right, 6 is possible, but you can count on 3. Shooting a wyvern is highly inefficient anyway due to their cost.
Martel732 wrote: Each marine equivalent has at least 3 bolter equivalent attacks between shooting and assault. These 3 attacks kill 0.88 conscripts. Determination of the effects of special/heavy weapons is a bit difficult. Notably, sternguard get 2 shots and 2 attacks, but these are rare in 8th from what I've seen.
Now the next issue is all 50 marines going after one blob, or are they spread across the battlefield somewhat?
At any rate, let's say your 50 marines get to the conscript line and all get to double tap range. The total damage output is 44 from bolteresque attacks. Now this is neglecting special/heavy and overwatch.
Marines are losing damage from meltaguns, gaining with plasma, and gaining with flamers.
Meltaguns are -0.3 conscripts
Plasmaguns are +0.5 conscripts
Flamers are +0.9 conscripts
Notice here that you are paying quite a bit for weapons that are only netting you 3 pts tops extra damage! That's the power of 3pt wounds with 5+ armor.
So let's say 15 of your dudes are up a net 1.1 in damage. That's an even spread of flamer, plasma, melta. So that's 44+15 = 59 conscripts dead total. So, you've killed one blob or knocked two down to 40%. With 50 marines and maxxed wargear.
Somewhere in here, you lose two dudes to overwatch in the assault and the surviving conscripts kill 1.5 more marines in CC.
59 conscripts is 177 pts, and you only paid 45.5 pts do it. However, the rest of the IG list is almost certainly going to cause far in excess of 131.5 pts of damage to your remaining 46-47 marines. AND the conscripts still have two 40% blobs or one full blob. So, you have to do the same thing next turn. Again, the conscripts are buying TIME more than anything else. And they are getting this time for a pittance.
Assuming you wipe them in shooting, you have still been prevented from moving forward fully and you take yet ANOTHER barrage from the rest of the IG list. Even if these barrages only wipe say 10 marines each, you are now down to 27 marines tops to take out all the remaining tanks and cap objectives. I must tell you 1000+ IG only killing 10 marines is VERY optimistic.
The threat of beta strike from plasma scions alone makes this almost certain suicide.
Like I said, not interested anymore. Don't waste your typing.
It's also not certain you can get 50/80 marines up the conscripts, as you will march through optimal quadratap range. That is very bad. I can jump over it, and they still come out ahead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the theme is pro-IG stomping off. Got it.
Martel732 wrote: Each marine equivalent has at least 3 bolter equivalent attacks between shooting and assault. These 3 attacks kill 0.88 conscripts. Determination of the effects of special/heavy weapons is a bit difficult. Notably, sternguard get 2 shots and 2 attacks, but these are rare in 8th from what I've seen.
Now the next issue is all 50 marines going after one blob, or are they spread across the battlefield somewhat?
At any rate, let's say your 50 marines get to the conscript line and all get to double tap range. The total damage output is 44 from bolteresque attacks. Now this is neglecting special/heavy and overwatch.
Marines are losing damage from meltaguns, gaining with plasma, and gaining with flamers.
Meltaguns are -0.3 conscripts
Plasmaguns are +0.5 conscripts
Flamers are +0.9 conscripts
Notice here that you are paying quite a bit for weapons that are only netting you 3 pts tops extra damage! That's the power of 3pt wounds with 5+ armor.
So let's say 15 of your dudes are up a net 1.1 in damage. That's an even spread of flamer, plasma, melta. So that's 44+15 = 59 conscripts dead total. So, you've killed one blob or knocked two down to 40%. With 50 marines and maxxed wargear.
Somewhere in here, you lose two dudes to overwatch in the assault and the surviving conscripts kill 1.5 more marines in CC.
59 conscripts is 177 pts, and you only paid 45.5 pts do it. However, the rest of the IG list is almost certainly going to cause far in excess of 131.5 pts of damage to your remaining 46-47 marines. AND the conscripts still have two 40% blobs or one full blob. So, you have to do the same thing next turn. Again, the conscripts are buying TIME more than anything else. And they are getting this time for a pittance.
Assuming you wipe them in shooting, you have still been prevented from moving forward fully and you take yet ANOTHER barrage from the rest of the IG list. Even if these barrages only wipe say 10 marines each, you are now down to 27 marines tops to take out all the remaining tanks and cap objectives. I must tell you 1000+ IG only killing 10 marines is VERY optimistic.
The threat of beta strike from plasma scions alone makes this almost certain suicide.
Like I said, not interested anymore. Don't waste your typing.
I have been looking some more and found that there is a unit capable of killing 1/3 of its value in conscripts per turn at a considerable range without LOS, namely AM mortar HWT squads. So I guess that's part of the solution for an army that wants to kill them. But if you want to protect those from getting assaulted by other armies you'd need a screen, and getting a screen from the imperium means getting conscripts. At that point you are almost playing AM yourself.
Another unit that is more efficient than anything else I found in the SM list is the new aggressor squad. They are actually killing slightly below 1/4 of their cost at a decent enough range, and are only slightly less durable than terminators. Although terminators are quite squishy themselves. If you can get the double fire to work the aggressors can actually reach very respectable kill numbers, but that requires you to get within 18'' the turn before. I doubt that they will last that long.
And if the tail is being used, then you're losing some firepower from the Conscripts by doing so.
The guardsmen fit in about a block 6~7" to a side. The officers can stand 6" behind the back. That means you need to get 12-13" past the front of the conscript unit just to reach the officer on the charge even before they add a tail. Each conscript in the tail extends that range by a further 3" It's not like the tail is base-to-base guardsmen across the table, I've never seen one get longer than 4 guys, and that was just sloppy placement that could easily have been 3.
6% of the unit, aka 9 points, "wasted" to ensure the officers that are absolutely vital to its function are allowed to survive. It doesn't take a genius guard player to figure it out.
It also doesn't take a genius Guard player to figure out that your math has been garbage, seeing as how it has been continuously talking about 50 Conscripts firing.
I said 6% of the unit not firing is the most I've ever seen, not the standard. It's only there at all on a situational basis. But sure, go back and chop off 6% of the firepower for any of my posts on conscript math. It doesn't matter because I don't see conscripts barely edging other things out, they are overwhelmingly dominant in points efficiency.
Also, playing an army with 12" range for my default guns, I'm not too sympathetic to the idea that getting with 24" is such a struggle. If the back of the conscript block only counts as having a 17-18" range, that's still more than my standard unit even after you count the added movement at my disposal due to being fast with battle focus.
He did. But by that time I realized that his scenario appeared to be assuming that the only damage done in the game, so far, was to my army. And that nothing had been done to the IG player. The scenario appeared to have been constructed entirely in bad faith, so it's not even worth looking at.
Hey, I figured I'd come back and talk about the simulation I was going to run at some point with one of my friends. He think conscripts are very strong too, and offered to use stand-ins for a 100-150 conscript list while I try to beat on it with the nastiest things I can. We have to simulate because I don't think either of us own enough guardsmen to do it. He's out of town this weekend though, and that's really the only chance we have to play, so it'll probably be next weekend. Maybe I'll get a lucky weeknight game, but it'd probably be at lower points than would be ideal.
*Looks at 1500+ points of Tau sitting on desk*
*Looks at the 3000 points of Grey Knights magnetized in open case on the table*
*Stares down at the Primaris slowly getting painted today for Disciples of Caliban owned since Megaforces were a thing*
Oh, that's right! Uhh...
*Scratches his head while he tries to remember where his 40 Mordians and Scions are*
Well, good luck with your problems. I'd continue trying to help, but I think I'm a little too biased, and definitely not patient enough.
daedalus wrote: Hey, I figured I'd come back and talk about the simulation I was going to run at some point with one of my friends. He think conscripts are very strong too, and offered to use stand-ins for a 100-150 conscript list while I try to beat on it with the nastiest things I can. We have to simulate because I don't think either of us own enough guardsmen to do it. He's out of town this weekend though, and that's really the only chance we have to play, so it'll probably be next weekend. Maybe I'll get a lucky weeknight game, but it'd probably be at lower points than would be ideal.
Haven't worked that out yet. We just agreed to give it a shot. Right now I'm leaning toward a tac-heavy rhino rush list with maybe using Melissia's first suggest as a base, simply because that's mostly what I have, but counts-as was never really an issue between us. I'm going to try to refrain from any sort of allies as much as I can avoid, though I might also include some Assassins.
Whatever I wind up with, I'll try to maintain reasonable amounts of detail and pictures. I don't think either of us are probably willing to do a videotaped thing, cause I know that would get on my nerves.
daedalus wrote: Haven't worked that out yet. We just agreed to give it a shot. Right now I'm leaning toward a tac-heavy rhino rush list with maybe using Melissia's first suggest as a base, simply because that's mostly what I have, but counts-as was never really an issue between us. I'm going to try to refrain from any sort of allies as much as I can avoid, though I might also include some Assassins.
Whatever I wind up with, I'll try to maintain reasonable amounts of detail and pictures. I don't think either of us are probably willing to do a videotaped thing, cause I know that would get on my nerves.
Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.
Lykanthar wrote: Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.
He doesn't have to fall back very far each time, and probably doesn't want to. The conscript formation can be quite loose without having to leave room for enemy models to squeeze between them and the backline. Just reducing these spaces slightly each time he wants to fall back and falling back the minimum distance each time is enough. But your plan could certainly work if the AM player isn't aware of the capabilities of jump pack infantry.
Lykanthar wrote: Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.
Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...
Insectum7 wrote: Oh, I see. You're assuming that 20 Lascannons for a few turns have been completely ineffective against IG tanks for some reason, and at the same time no damage has been done to the Conscripts with advancing bolter fire in the meantime. Got it.
I'm not interested in this conversation anymore.
Because manticores and wyverns. We're trying to explain the competitive meta to you, you're just not accepting it. To be fair, people do bring devastator squads to tournaments - just not a lot of people do - and they use missile launchers, they're more flexible than lascannons.
Tons of people brought Devastators
While Missile was probably the most common, a ton of Lascannon and Heavy Bolters are seen
Probably about 45/35/20 distribution
Lykanthar wrote: Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.
Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...
Pile-in/consolidate wrap-around can usually force a full fallback move if you do it properly, and even if it doesn't the guard player likely has to anyway because if they leave any room the assault marines can just fly over them. If the conscripts are within 3" of the backline then any casualties allows the assault marines to pile-in to new units, and if they are further than 3" in front then the assault marines fly over.
Lykanthar wrote: Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.
Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...
Pile-in/consolidate wrap-around can usually force a full fallback move if you do it properly, and even if it doesn't the guard player like has to anyway because if they leave any room the assault marines can just fly over them.
Pile-in and consolidate are both optional moves. If the IG player is going for maximum bubblewrap effect, he can just remove his second line as casualties and fall back into the vacated locations, without ever moving his rear models forward or allowing you to wrap around the sides. A force of 100 conscripts can cover a LOT of real estate.
He did. But by that time I realized that his scenario appeared to be assuming that the only damage done in the game, so far, was to my army. And that nothing had been done to the IG player. The scenario appeared to have been constructed entirely in bad faith, so it's not even worth looking at.
You just don't understand that your not allowed to have fun playing 8th until marines auto-win every game.
To the BA players....I do have sympathy. Your dex has sucked as long as ours and your 8th rules look worse than 7th. Why do Death Company even take morale tests at all?
You will never convince me we are scatterbike/cheesetide OP, but we are OP. I've watched too many videos online of AM shooting good armies completely off the table. I'll be happy when GW nerfs us just to stop having to listen to all the whining.
Lykanthar wrote: Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.
Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...
Pile-in/consolidate wrap-around can usually force a full fallback move if you do it properly, and even if it doesn't the guard player like has to anyway because if they leave any room the assault marines can just fly over them. If the conscripts are within 3" of the backline then any casualties allows the assault marines to pile-in to new units, and if they are further than 3" in front then the assault marines fly over.
Depends on how many conscripts the AM player has, this might work against lower numbers.
Lykanthar wrote: Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.
Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...
Pile-in/consolidate wrap-around can usually force a full fallback move if you do it properly, and even if it doesn't the guard player like has to anyway because if they leave any room the assault marines can just fly over them.
Pile-in and consolidate are both optional moves. If the IG player is going for maximum bubblewrap effect, he can just remove his second line as casualties and fall back into the vacated locations, without ever moving his rear models forward or allowing you to wrap around the sides. A force of 100 conscripts can cover a LOT of real estate.
It might be a bit dependent upon deployment map... I'm thinking Dawn of War where the backline is the back 6" and conscripts are in the front 6" (in which case they have no room to fall back without exposing the backline). For hammer and anvil it might get more tricky.
Here are Marines vs Conscripts on really any deployment map, Protecting Artillery
After the charge/marine Pile-in
MMMMMMMMMM
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA
After casualties are removed (x's), and marine consolidates:
MMMMMMMMMM
C C C C C C C C
C X X X X X X X C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA
After Fallback move:
MMMMMMMMMM
CCCC C CCCCC
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA
Note how the back line didn't move at all, and the Marines still cannot reach the heavies. They need to do this 3 more times before they can reach the artillery. Or just kill enough conscripts.
Side note: before someone says "but in all your other posts the conscripts were in a tight block so they could get range to shoot stuff better, quit saying they can do everything/moving the goalposts/whatever," I'm just going to quickly point out that you deploy conscripts differently for different army match ups. They're versatile - yet another plus for them!
Deathypoo wrote: Here are Marines vs Conscripts on really any deployment map, Protecting Artillery
After the charge/marine Pile-in
MMMMMMMMMM
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA
After casualties are removed (x's), and marine consolidates:
MMMMMMMMMM
C C C C C C C C
C X X X X X X X C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA
After Fallback move:
MMMMMMMMMM
CCCC C CCCCC
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA
Note how the back line didn't move at all, and the Marines still cannot reach the heavies. They need to do this 3 more times before they can reach the artillery. Or just kill enough conscripts.
Side note: before someone says "but in all your other posts the conscripts were in a tight block so they could get range to shoot stuff better, quit saying they can do everything/moving the goalposts/whatever," I'm just going to quickly point out that you deploy conscripts differently for different army match ups. They're versatile - yet another plus for them!
The problem here is you are allowing the conscripts to wrap around the sides, but not the marines. If you have room to wrap around then the marines do this to engage the artillery:
If you don't have room to wrap around the sides then this situation would not have enough room to allow the conscripts to leave combat at all:
MMMMMMMMMM
CCCCCCCCCCC
CC CCCCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAAAA
EDIT:
Scrap that, since the marines have fly they can just ignore the front line during their pile in, so as soon as a single consript is removed the assault marine can then just pile in to take its place, forcing the full fall back:
That's why, in my second block, you can see the conscripts are more closely bunched at the front. It's to represent 1" spacing between conscripts going to 0. As long as the front line is base-to-base like that, you can just remove the front line. And if you're not killing enough to remove a row, then the conscripts will happily stay locked in combat while the artillery kills other things.
As far as wrapping around the sides, I assume more conscripts are engaged with more marines all the way down the line. The conscripts just have to keep each rank wide enough to prevent the marines from lapping around - and they have plenty of bodies to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After seeing your edit - I don't think that would work. You have to end your move closer to the nearest enemy model, and the IG player is already in base-to-base with you, meaning you cannot actually consolidate.
For giggles, 80 csm, with 20 missile launchers distributed between them do 46 casualties to conscripts with frag missiles, non-rapid firing bolters and on the move, with Abaddon granting re-rolls to hit.
Better to target multiple squads if you can see them, to force comissars to execute more people. Or use the missile launchers to shoot at visible vehicles instead. 60 bolter shots rerolling to hit kill 23.6 conscripts, so a 50 man squad is pretty toasted after 2nd firing round, even if the missiles are firing elsewhere.
Again, thats on the move with missile launchers and not rapid firing with bolters. Closer in each csm contributes more with double boltering and frag grenades, not to mention assaults.
Insectum7 wrote: For giggles, 80 csm, with 20 missile launchers distributed between them do 46 casualties to conscripts with frag missiles, non-rapid firing bolters and on the move, with Abaddon granting re-rolls to hit.
Better to target multiple squads if you can see them, to force comissars to execute more people. Or use the missile launchers to shoot at visible vehicles instead. 60 bolter shots rerolling to hit kill 23.6 conscripts, so a 50 man squad is pretty toasted after 2nd firing round, even if the missiles are firing elsewhere.
Aaaaand that's the thing about conscripts. If you're pouring that many points into killing them over two turns, they've STILL done their job as far as the IG is concerned. I would love to have a single wave serpent (roughly the same cost as a conscript squad) soak essentially the entire enemy army's worth of fire-power for 2 turns in a row. My games with guard are generally surrendered on turn 3 or tabled turn 4-5, so by the end of 2, things are already tilting heavily.
Edit: I re-read and realized I wasn't paying enough attention. You basically killed a wave serpent with one round of shooting (if your math is accurate. Minus points for not showing it). Not so great, but still not awful.
Deathypoo wrote: That's why, in my second block, you can see the conscripts are more closely bunched at the front. It's to represent 1" spacing between conscripts going to 0. As long as the front line is base-to-base like that, you can just remove the front line. And if you're not killing enough to remove a row, then the conscripts will happily stay locked in combat while the artillery kills other things.
As far as wrapping around the sides, I assume more conscripts are engaged with more marines all the way down the line. The conscripts just have to keep each rank wide enough to prevent the marines from lapping around - and they have plenty of bodies to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After seeing your edit - I don't think that would work. You have to end your move closer to the nearest enemy model, and the IG player is already in base-to-base with you, meaning you cannot actually consolidate.
The assault marines charged, so they get to pile in, fight and consolidate before the guard can do anything. You can charge and pile in 1 " away from the front line, then consolidate to the other side of the closest model (and base a different model in the 3rd row).
Insectum7 wrote: For giggles, 80 csm, with 20 missile launchers distributed between them do 46 casualties to conscripts with frag missiles, non-rapid firing bolters and on the move, with Abaddon granting re-rolls to hit.
Better to target multiple squads if you can see them, to force comissars to execute more people. Or use the missile launchers to shoot at visible vehicles instead. 60 bolter shots rerolling to hit kill 23.6 conscripts, so a 50 man squad is pretty toasted after 2nd firing round, even if the missiles are firing elsewhere.
Aaaaand that's the thing about conscripts. If you're pouring that many points into killing them over two turns, they've STILL done their job as far as the IG is concerned. I would love to have a single wave serpent (roughly the same cost as a conscript squad) soak essentially the entire enemy army's worth of fire-power for 2 turns in a row. My games with guard are generally surrendered on turn 3 or tabled turn 4-5, so by the end of 2, things are already tilting heavily.
Potato potato.
I think youd be silly to fire the missile launchers at the conscripts, as their damage output isnt great, and a second turn of boltering them will largely finish them off.
Deathypoo wrote: That's why, in my second block, you can see the conscripts are more closely bunched at the front. It's to represent 1" spacing between conscripts going to 0. As long as the front line is base-to-base like that, you can just remove the front line. And if you're not killing enough to remove a row, then the conscripts will happily stay locked in combat while the artillery kills other things.
As far as wrapping around the sides, I assume more conscripts are engaged with more marines all the way down the line. The conscripts just have to keep each rank wide enough to prevent the marines from lapping around - and they have plenty of bodies to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After seeing your edit - I don't think that would work. You have to end your move closer to the nearest enemy model, and the IG player is already in base-to-base with you, meaning you cannot actually consolidate.
The assault marines charged, so they get to pile in, fight and consolidate before the guard can do anything. You can charge and pile in just out of base contact, then consolidate to the other side of the closest model.
hmmm you are right. The same concept I laid out would still work, except for the very last rank, because you can do the same thing but taking from the rear rank. You just have to move more models when you fall back.
Deathypoo wrote: That's why, in my second block, you can see the conscripts are more closely bunched at the front. It's to represent 1" spacing between conscripts going to 0. As long as the front line is base-to-base like that, you can just remove the front line. And if you're not killing enough to remove a row, then the conscripts will happily stay locked in combat while the artillery kills other things.
As far as wrapping around the sides, I assume more conscripts are engaged with more marines all the way down the line. The conscripts just have to keep each rank wide enough to prevent the marines from lapping around - and they have plenty of bodies to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After seeing your edit - I don't think that would work. You have to end your move closer to the nearest enemy model, and the IG player is already in base-to-base with you, meaning you cannot actually consolidate.
The assault marines charged, so they get to pile in, fight and consolidate before the guard can do anything. You can charge and pile in just out of base contact, then consolidate to the other side of the closest model.
hmmm you are right. The same concept I laid out would still work, except for the very last rank, because you can do the same thing but taking from the rear rank. You just have to move more models when you fall back.
Hmm... so then it would come down to how much room there is and how many casualties are suffered. Still, even if you can prevent the marines from getting to the artillery on turn 2, they would still only need to kill maybe half the conscripts to get through. You would also have to worry about casualties during the shooting phase to pistols and/or the rest of the marine army because if any "wrong" model is removed then the assault marines get through and its all over. Complicated...
Edit: I re-read and realized I wasn't paying enough attention. You basically killed a wave serpent with one round of shooting (if your math is accurate. Minus points for not showing it). Not so great, but still not awful.
If you mean killing a wave serpents worth of points, well if you think conscripts are undercosted then youre killing more than that.
But the other way to look at it is that youre killing the conscripts with your "tax" for taking a bunch of heavy weapons. I just happen to not suscribe to the idea that basic marines are a tax.
Another thing to remember is that by the end of the 2nd move phase, the line has moved up 12". Line marines can fire at more valuable stuff if they like, while a smaller and smaller portion can be used to attack conscripts as the damage output increases at shorter range.
Insectum7 wrote: For giggles, 80 csm, with 20 missile launchers distributed between them do 46 casualties to conscripts with frag missiles, non-rapid firing bolters and on the move, with Abaddon granting re-rolls to hit.
Better to target multiple squads if you can see them, to force comissars to execute more people. Or use the missile launchers to shoot at visible vehicles instead. 60 bolter shots rerolling to hit kill 23.6 conscripts, so a 50 man squad is pretty toasted after 2nd firing round, even if the missiles are firing elsewhere.
Aaaaand that's the thing about conscripts. If you're pouring that many points into killing them over two turns, they've STILL done their job as far as the IG is concerned. I would love to have a single wave serpent (roughly the same cost as a conscript squad) soak essentially the entire enemy army's worth of fire-power for 2 turns in a row. My games with guard are generally surrendered on turn 3 or tabled turn 4-5, so by the end of 2, things are already tilting heavily.
Potato potato.
I think youd be silly to fire the missile launchers at the conscripts, as their damage output isnt great, and a second turn of boltering them will largely finish them off.
The math, because I hate not seeing it broken down and checked:
60 Bolter marines, non-rapid. 60 shots, 40 hit + 13 from re-rolls for total of 53 hits, which is 36 wounds, which is 24 dead conscripts, after armor save. 25 after morale. So, two turns to kill a single conscript squad.
So yeah, your bolter math is dead on and we agree, yay! It feels like that almost never happens.
Less than 1000 points (dunno exact number because I don't know how to count Abbadon) taking 2 turns to kill one 150 point squad of conscripts is... I was about to say good but then I realized how warped my perception of conscripts has become. That would be considered a terrible waste against any other unit out there.
I'm serious, I really was calling it good, no sarcasm, then I realized what I was saying and replaced it.
Well, thats why i think youre better off starting to shoot at other stuff when youre in range. Spreading kills around means that other, potentially deadlier units have to start taking morale, and you get more incidental casualties. A guard player also may not spend orders on conscripts if his veterans or whatever need help either. (I confess I dont know how orders work) But then your basic csms can double-tap, frag and assault conscripts on their way in as an afterthought to all the Missile Launchers and potential combi weapons going off in other directions.
It all depends on what else is going on, natually, but it could be an interesting game.
60 marines is 780 points. Interestingly, 20 more marines all with missile launchers is 760 points.
Abaddon is 253.
For extra giggles you could fill the rest out with 40 cultists, as Abaddon makes them immune to morale. (They kill an extra 10 conscripts at 24" with Abaddons rerolls)
Now that my ban for "spamming" has ended (well done, very clever. You get me banned then call on me to reply, making me look bad when I do not) I feel it is time to introduce a simple piece of math from the days of yor:
"The Damage, Cripple, or Destroy Chart"
But first, let us look at the problem. Thus far we have the 'conscripts are bad' crowd saying this:
"Conscripts are overpowered because I cannot destroy the entire unit within 1 to 2 turns of shooting with a selection that costs exactly as much as the Conscripts and their supporting elements". The relevant parts are underlined.
Quite simply put this is utter tripe. I will get into that later, but firstly let us look at the premise for this decision. The idea that a selection that costs equal too or less than the conscripts themselves should easily be able to remove them from the board within 1 to 2 turns originates in the area of 6th and 7th 40K. Back then Guard units where incredible weak and it was not common to see entire armies break and flee. Chiefly amongst these offenders where the conscripts whom formed cheap cannon fodder, but suffered from such a terrible BS and low LD that they frequently vanished from the table. Yes, they where buffable with Orders and Priests, but these where available in extremely limited numbers and where often assigned to those units that might actually do something instead of being wasted on Conscripts. And so conscripts where easily beaten and destroyed.
The buff blobs that where the nearest things to Conscripts in those days where also easily negated, thanks to their high cost and pathetic durability as well as the sheer broken power levels of other armies whom could insta-remove the entire unit at the drop of a hat.
Another major factor was the horrifying rape train that was the majority of the popular factions during these two editions. These armies had access to units, gear and formations that utterly broke the entire game and allowed entire blocks of cheap infantry to be removed as easily as one clips figure from sprue, chiefly amongst these being the Vindicator Linebreaker and other such massed Ignores Cover shenanigans. Over the years the players of these factions became so used to deleting huge blocks of Guard troops, and indeed entire Guard armies, in a couple of turns that this became the accepted norm.
Ergo when 8th hit and some Guard units where buffed/reduced in price to the levels that they should have been the new found durability gave the players of these self same power fations a major shock as they found that they could no longer just remove Guard model with a shrug of their shoulders. A good example of this is Martel saying "Two turns is too long" when someone offered him a list that would remove the Conscripts in 2 to 3 turns with minimal return losses on his behalf. Likewise the general sentiment from the pampered children in this thread is that they should be able to remove the conscripts within a single turn of shooting whislt using selections that cost equal too or less than the Conscripts do.
This is not going to happen and in a balanced game is never going to happen and now I am going to show why.
Who here knows what Battlefleet Gothic is? Or should that be was?
BFG was (and still is) an amazing game of naval warfare in the 40K universe. It was an amazing game, broken only by Eldar (surprise surprise) and Necrons (whom where introduced to deal with Eldar). Now, there was something that all BFG players knew, and it was "The Expenditure of Resources to Remove Enemy Ships". Simply put it was a hard rule on the amount of stuff you typically had to commit to cripple or destroy and enemy ship of an equal class.
Damage, Cripple, or Destroy The first step was to assess your target and what you wanted to do to them. Did you simply want to slug them a bit, or did you want to do more?
In a one on one battle two ships of the same class (Cruisers in this example) would slug each other ineffectually for turn after turn until one got lucky and managed to do something to its opponent. But that rarely happened swiftly and one could see eight or more turns pass with neither ship sustaining more than a point or two of minor hull damage. If you wanted to deal some real damage to an enemy ship then you typically had to expend a higher amount of resources than 1-1
If your aim was to deal some heavy damage and potentially cripple your opponent then you had to commit two ships of the same class as your target to pound it, and on average you would deal some heavier damage.Crippling within a turn was still highly unlikely, but you would usually be able to cripple it after two to three turns of bombardment.
Now, if you wanted to cripple the target ship within a single turn you would have to put some real meat into the fire. Typically you would need three Cruisers of two Cruiser and a Battleship to cripple one Cruiser within a single turn of shooting, with all three focusing their fire on the one target. And even then it was not assured, and a 4th Cruiser or a squadron of escorts was best kept on standby to finish the job.
Outright destroying the target Cruiser within a single turn would require the commitment of at least five capital ships to bombard it continuously until it fell silent.
so, how does this stack with 40K and Conscripts?
Well, quite simply it shows that they are in fact balanced. The major problem currently faced is that many players are still used to the age of super factions and dominating the weaker armies, and now that things have changed they are struggling to adapt. Conscripts are never and should never melt away within a single turn if you only commit their points cost or a fraction of their points cost to dealing with them. To completely delete the entire unit within a single turn you need to commit more resources than the unit costs - as much as five times the resources - to remove it. Forget trampling them with your Super Characters and band of merry NPC escorts, that will never happen in this edition. These days you need to actually commit resources if you want the unit to be removed, or commit yourself to the long and arduous slog of slowly grinding through it. It is your choice.
And in all honesty you will not even need five times the number of resources. About three times should do it.
A simple TL;DR guide chart
Spoiler:
Resource ratio/expected result
1-1/Both units slap at each other a bit, delivering some minor damage but nothing really happens to either
2-1/The units with the advantage deliver heavy hits on the disadvantaged unit. The disadvantaged unit does minimal return damage
3-1/The disadvantaged unit takes heavy damage and is possibly crippled. The advantaged units take minimal return damage
4-1/The disadvantaged unit is crippled and most likely on its last legs. The advantaged units take almost nothing in return
5-1/The advantaged units are unscathed. The disadvantaged unit is obliterated.
6-1+/You are a true sadist, you know that?
I hope that this helped.
PS, why are the conscripts still at full strength? How are the protecting if they are clumped for a volley? How are they volleying if they are spread for denial and bubblewrap? How badly have you fethed up if they are on your doorstep and still at full strength? Ask yourself these things.
You have no ability to look at an issue from your opponent's point of view and it shows in every post you make. This was clear when you tried to claim that ba were better than ig last edition.
Martel732 wrote: You have no ability to look at an issue from your opponent's point of view and it shows in every post you make. This was clear when you tried to claim that ba were better than ig last edition.
Have you actually tried reading and comprehending or is blatant righteousness your go-to response Martel?
Very little you post is mathematically accurate or feasible from a practical standpoint. 100 wounds that are immune to morale for 400 points is busted. There's several reasons for this that have been outlined in this thread. You just ignore them all.
Martel732 wrote: Very little you post is mathematically accurate or feasible from a practical standpoint. 100 wounds that are immune to morale for 400 points is busted. There's several reasons for this that have been outlined in this thread. You just ignore them all.
Because every single reason came down to "I cannot remove this entire unit in a turn with equal or less points so it is broken". Try applying more points to them for a turn and see what happens.
That is one thing I have tried to point out: a unit whose primary purpose is to soak wounds shouldn't be removed in a single turn by roughly equal points to begin with. If it was, it would be rather terrible at its job.
After all, think of it on the army-wide scale: if a 2000 point army could reasonably expect to kill 2000 points in a single round regardless of what the other 2000 points was comprised of, how long would a typical 40k game last? About one turn. You roll to see who goes first, the person who goes first deletes the entire enemy army, game over. I suppose technically under such a scheme all factions would have an equal chance of winning (assuming you use a simple coin flip or roll-off to give them an equal chance of going first), but it wouldn't be much of a game.
So obviously, as a rule of thumb no unit should be expecting to make its points back in a single turn. Especially not when it is attacking something that is specifically intended to be more difficult to remove than usual.
So two turns is not too long, not even close. Especially when "first-turn grants too much of an advantage" is already a common complaint.
As an aside, I've pointed out in other threads and after a PM or two, I feel obligated to point out-- Martel's exact complaints can be made about Rhinos.
On average, a bare minimum of four times a Rhino's cost in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units are necessary for the Imperial Guard to take down a Rhino in one turn.
Let's look at ways to tone down Rhinos shall we? Clearly, they're OP for such a cheap transport to be able to take that much firepower to take down in one turn! And that's with Heavy Weapons Teams being the cheapest source of lascannons in the game! For a tank squadron to take it down in one turn, it'd take take six to eight times as many points!
Hell, the Rhino can even nullify overwatch for the troops inside, thus making it even more powerful. Clearly it needs a price increase and it should obviously have no armor save.
The hyperbole in the arguments against Conscripts is ridiculous. incessant need to utterly destroy and table your opponent in one or two turns is perhaps the worst thing 6th and 7th edition introduced to the game-- not Formations or any of the other things. But the attitude that things aren't worth taking unless they make their points back in a single turn, no matter the situation they're faced with. Hell, I remember in 4th and 5th edition people were content with something making its points back over the course of six turns...
Yeah, I know, I bowed out of the conversation a page or three back. But this is just base-level hypocrisy and lack of tactical sense motivating the majority of the complaints about conscripts and it needs to be pointed out how ridiculous it is that we've gotten over sixty pages of discussion on the topic of conscripts alone in at most two weeks. People whined less about flyer spam than this, and flyer spam, unlike conscripts, actually won tournaments!
I just can't believe the level of spastic complaints going on here.
Martel's complaints can definitely not be made about rhinos. That just shows you're here to post your thoughts, and have been largely ignoring the entire debate.
A 150 point unit should not take over 800 points to remove. In no universe does that make sense. That kind of scale doesn't work for any other unit in this game.
Very little you post is mathematically accurate or feasible from a practical standpoint. 100 wounds that are immune to morale for 400 points is busted. There's several reasons for this that have been outlined in this thread. You just ignore them all.
Marmatag wrote: A 150 point unit should not take over 800 points to remove. In no universe does that make sense. That kind of scale doesn't work for any other unit in this game.
By this logic, a 70 point unit shouldn't take 400 poitns to remove.
But even though you try to talk about how "no other unit" does this apply to, you don't use this logic for any other unit. Because if you did, your entire argument would fall apart. You just say "Well nothing else is like it" ignoring all the other things like it.
Hell, to take down a single 65 point tactical marine squad in cover in a single turn takes 330 points of conscripts and support characters and the 100 conscripts involved to be given the chance to all move in to place to FRFSRF the squad. Clearly this means tactical marines are overpowered and shouldn't be as durable as they are.
Fun fact is? Both these examples-- Rhinos and Tacticals-- have the same ratio of points the unit costs vs points it takes to eliminate the unit in one turn as the ratio you mentioned for conscripts. But you don't care, because you have a hate-boner on for conscripts and you won't be dissuaded from calling them OP even if by YOUR OWN LOGIC your own units must be OP.
This is why I bowed out of the other thread, and why I bowed out earlier in this thread. Even as you claim I'm not here to listen to what you have to say, you're not willing to pay attention to anyone else's argument. You aren't even listening to your own argument... I'm out, again.
I agree with Melissia, rhinos are clearly more OP than conscripts.
Dark eldar raiders are T5 with a 4+ save and cost 115 points
Orks trukks are T6 with a 4+ save and cost 82 points.
Rhinos are T7 with 3+ save and cost 72 points.
Conscripts are quite hard to remove thanks to their numbers but you won't lose the game thanks to their survivability or their shooting. Just focus on the game guys, score the points you need to win. Tons of cheap plasma deep striking shots that obliterate some of your most valuable units in turn 1 are way more broken than conscripts for example and even easier to buy/assemble/paint/transport.
I agree that rhinos are strong, what does that have to do with conscripts being unbalanced?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Fun fact is? Both these examples-- Rhinos and Tacticals-- have the same ratio of points the unit costs vs points it takes to eliminate the unit in one turn as the ratio you mentioned for conscripts. But you don't care, because you have a hate-boner on for conscripts and you won't be dissuaded from calling them OP even if by YOUR OWN LOGIC your own units must be OP.
Well this simply isn't true, tactical marines can be taken down 36'' away by Kastelan Robots costing only slightly more than twice as much. We are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.
Well this simply isn't true, tactical marines can be taken down 36'' away by Kastelan Robots costing only slightly more than twice as much. We are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.
Right, but Tactical Marines fulfill more roles than conscripts. Conscripts are basically only a CC screen. They don't do much damage, they require babysitting, you can just shoot past them. You pay for warm bodies, and bodies is the only thing that you get.
You can keep making the argument "they're op because they take more effort to kill", I just won't buy it until I see these armies sweeping tournaments. As I pointed out prior, if you're taking lots of models (marines) to begin with, you can slaughter the conscripts with what most people consider a "tax".
Blackie wrote: I agree with Melissia, rhinos are clearly more OP than conscripts.
Dark eldar raiders are T5 with a 4+ save and cost 115 points
Orks trukks are T6 with a 4+ save and cost 82 points.
Rhinos are T7 with 3+ save and cost 72 points.
Conscripts are quite hard to remove thanks to their numbers but you won't lose the game thanks to their survivability or their shooting. Just focus on the game guys, score the points you need to win. Tons of cheap plasma deep striking shots that obliterate some of your most valuable units in turn 1 are way more broken than conscripts for example and even easier to buy/assemble/paint/transport.
Well this simply isn't true, tactical marines can be taken down 36'' away by Kastelan Robots costing only slightly more than twice as much. We are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.
Right, but Tactical Marines fulfill more roles than conscripts. Conscripts are basically only a CC screen. They don't do much damage, they require babysitting, you can just shoot past them. You pay for warm bodies, and bodies is the only thing that you get.
You can keep making the argument "they're op because they take more effort to kill", I just won't buy it until I see these armies sweeping tournaments. As I pointed out prior, if you're taking lots of models (marines) to begin with, you can slaughter the conscripts with what most people consider a "tax".
I don't know if this is referring to the hypothetical conscripts without orders, but assuming that you aren't: I don't think tactical marines can do any single role better than conscripts can, except for capping objectives with enemy models nearby. Conscripts can be used as a more efficient firebase than tac marines if you want to use them that way - they are not simply restricted to acting as bubblewrap. The math has been done multiple times across these threads: Bolter marines are doing less damage than conscripts of an equal cost (including support) when the marines are in rapid-fire range and the conscripts aren't. Even with special/heavy weapons and considering the difficulty of getting that many conscripts in range their numbers will still be similar against any target.
If you are using them as bubblewrap then you probably won't be getting efficient damage out of them, but then you are getting the value from the way they shield the real gunline. In a matchup where the opponent simply ignores the conscripts and shoots past them you will be able to use their firepower to as good effect as an SM army could use tac marines.
Martel732 wrote: Very little you post is mathematically accurate or feasible from a practical standpoint. 100 wounds that are immune to morale for 400 points is busted. There's several reasons for this that have been outlined in this thread. You just ignore them all.
Because every single reason came down to "I cannot remove this entire unit in a turn with equal or less points so it is broken". Try applying more points to them for a turn and see what happens.
It turns into an autowin for the IG. What you suggest plays right into their hands. I understand you don't get it and can't see it, but that's not really my problem.
Marmatag wrote: A 150 point unit should not take over 800 points to remove. In no universe does that make sense. That kind of scale doesn't work for any other unit in this game.
By this logic, a 70 point unit shouldn't take 400 poitns to remove.
But even though you try to talk about how "no other unit" does this apply to, you don't use this logic for any other unit. Because if you did, your entire argument would fall apart. You just say "Well nothing else is like it" ignoring all the other things like it.
Hell, to take down a single 65 point tactical marine squad in cover in a single turn takes 330 points of conscripts and support characters and the 100 conscripts involved to be given the chance to all move in to place to FRFSRF the squad. Clearly this means tactical marines are overpowered and shouldn't be as durable as they are.
Fun fact is? Both these examples-- Rhinos and Tacticals-- have the same ratio of points the unit costs vs points it takes to eliminate the unit in one turn as the ratio you mentioned for conscripts. But you don't care, because you have a hate-boner on for conscripts and you won't be dissuaded from calling them OP even if by YOUR OWN LOGIC your own units must be OP.
This is why I bowed out of the other thread, and why I bowed out earlier in this thread. Even as you claim I'm not here to listen to what you have to say, you're not willing to pay attention to anyone else's argument. You aren't even listening to your own argument... I'm out, again.
I don't know how often you play marines, but in practice, this is a false equivalence. Go play some games against good IG players to find out why.
Tactical marines can be armed with heavy and special wapons, and therefore are better anti-vehicle than conscripts. And since they dont need Comissars or orders, they cost less.
Insectum7 wrote: Tactical marines can be armed with heavy and special wapons, and therefore are better anti-vehicle than conscripts. And since they dont need Comissars or orders, they cost less.
That's true, but they're still far less effective at taking up space and soaking bullets. In fact, every gun you give tac marines makes them less good at soaking bullets. This has always been a critical flaw.
Insectum7 wrote: Tactical marines can be armed with heavy and special wapons, and therefore are better anti-vehicle than conscripts. And since they dont need Comissars or orders, they cost less.
The cost of the support is included, as always, in every comparison. Just like the cost of additional weapons has to be included.
Insectum7 wrote: Tactical marines can be armed with heavy and special wapons, and therefore are better anti-vehicle than conscripts. And since they dont need Comissars or orders, they cost less.
The cost of the support is included, as always, in every comparison. Just like the cost of additional weapons has to be included.
Five marines with a Lascannon is 90 points. They average 1.28 wounds on a T7, 3+ sv. target, not including bolters.
90 points of conscripts (without Comissar) averages .56 wounds on the same target.
That's half the damage, at half the potential range.
Full squad of Conscripts, with Comissar, is 180 points. The marines can get a second squad with Lascannon for that. If you want to say they're firing at 12" away and using orders, I'm bringing Combi-meltas and adding the math for bolters and Krak.
Insectum7 wrote: Tactical marines can be armed with heavy and special wapons, and therefore are better anti-vehicle than conscripts. And since they dont need Comissars or orders, they cost less.
The cost of the support is included, as always, in every comparison. Just like the cost of additional weapons has to be included.
Five marines with a Lascannon is 90 points. They average 1.28 wounds on a T7, 3+ sv. target, not including bolters.
90 points of conscripts (without Comissar) averages .56 wounds on the same target.
That's half the damage, at half the potential range.
Full squad of Conscripts, with Comissar, is 180 points. The marines can get a second squad with Lascannon for that. If you want to say they're firing at 12" away and using orders, I'm bringing Combi-meltas and adding the math for bolters and Krak.
If you want to improve your numbers you should change from tactical marines to devastator marines. They get a free +1 to hit for one marine per turn. Against a T7 target you are better off using a plasma cannon, it's cheaper and more TAC.
Still, you aren't using orders in this example. I agree that conscripts without orders are way more restricted. I would also make sure to keep the example at the correct scale, 50 conscripts + commissar + commander would be the base combo imo, even though it can be more efficient. Rapid fire range is hardly representative and I doubt that the marines would want to do that with those heavy weapons.
Insectum7 wrote: Tactical marines can be armed with heavy and special wapons, and therefore are better anti-vehicle than conscripts. And since they dont need Comissars or orders, they cost less.
The cost of the support is included, as always, in every comparison. Just like the cost of additional weapons has to be included.
Five marines with a Lascannon is 90 points. They average 1.28 wounds on a T7, 3+ sv. target, not including bolters.
90 points of conscripts (without Comissar) averages .56 wounds on the same target.
That's half the damage, at half the potential range.
Full squad of Conscripts, with Comissar, is 180 points. The marines can get a second squad with Lascannon for that. If you want to say they're firing at 12" away and using orders, I'm bringing Combi-meltas and adding the math for bolters and Krak.
If you want to improve your numbers you should change from tactical marines to devastator marines. They get a free +1 to hit for one marine per turn. Against a T7 target you are better off using a plasma cannon, it's cheaper and more TAC.
Still, you aren't using orders in this example. I agree that conscripts without orders are way more restricted. I would also make sure to keep the example at the correct scale, 50 conscripts + commissar + commander would be the base combo imo, even though it can be more efficient. Rapid fire range is hardly representative and I doubt that the marines would want to do that with those heavy weapons.
The challengs was with Tacticals, so I used Tacticals.
In order to get comparable numbers with conscripts, they need the support and a more contrived situation (like all of them being within 12"). Without it their numbers don't work well in the vehicle case. btw, if you run a similar scenario against Terminator equivalents, and you give the Tacs a grav cannon, the tacss outstrip the conscripts further.
The point is that Tacs armed appropriately, and used appropriately, fare better than the conscripts put in a similar situation.
Insectum7 wrote: Tactical marines can be armed with heavy and special wapons, and therefore are better anti-vehicle than conscripts. And since they dont need Comissars or orders, they cost less.
The cost of the support is included, as always, in every comparison. Just like the cost of additional weapons has to be included.
Five marines with a Lascannon is 90 points. They average 1.28 wounds on a T7, 3+ sv. target, not including bolters.
90 points of conscripts (without Comissar) averages .56 wounds on the same target.
That's half the damage, at half the potential range.
Full squad of Conscripts, with Comissar, is 180 points. The marines can get a second squad with Lascannon for that. If you want to say they're firing at 12" away and using orders, I'm bringing Combi-meltas and adding the math for bolters and Krak.
If you want to improve your numbers you should change from tactical marines to devastator marines. They get a free +1 to hit for one marine per turn. Against a T7 target you are better off using a plasma cannon, it's cheaper and more TAC.
Still, you aren't using orders in this example. I agree that conscripts without orders are way more restricted. I would also make sure to keep the example at the correct scale, 50 conscripts + commissar + commander would be the base combo imo, even though it can be more efficient. Rapid fire range is hardly representative and I doubt that the marines would want to do that with those heavy weapons.
The challengs was with Tacticals, so I used Tacticals.
In order to get comparable numbers with conscripts, they need the support and a more contrived situation (like all of them being within 12"). Without it their numbers don't work well in the vehicle case. btw, if you run a similar scenario against Terminator equivalents, and you give the Tacs a grav cannon, the tacss outstrip the conscripts further.
The point is that Tacs armed appropriately, and used appropriately, fare better than the conscripts put in a similar situation.
I agree in both cases, the conscripts are not as good against vehicles or 2+ saves and can't be modified to make them better against those targets than certain builds of tac marines can be. The conscripts are doing a bit more than half of what the grav cannon tacticals are doing vs 3+ tanks and 2/3 of what they are doing vs terminators, at a shorter range as well given the difficulty of getting that many conscripts in 24'' range. Tac marines which are specialized to deal with good saves or tanks will outdo conscripts against such targets. So I will amend my earlier statement: Conscripts are better at everything tactical marines can do, except for holding objectives when there are more enemy models close by, or kill targets with high T/good saves when the tac marines are specialized to kill such targets.
In the case where you use tactical marines with heavy weapons you have also further reduced their relative survivability, their mobility goes down given the heavy weapons and their ability to kill low T/bad save targets like ork boyz or GEQ is still far worse than that of the conscripts. The conscripts are specialized to kill regular infantry, just like the tac squad in this case is specialized to kill tanks (to the point where it would be better as a dev squad). The conscripts will be better at killing such targets no matter what a tactical squad brings, and aren't meant to shoot at other targets in an AM list since they have other specialized units for that role.
I agree in both cases, the conscripts are not as good against vehicles or 2+ saves and can't be modified to make them better against those targets than certain builds of tac marines can be. The conscripts are doing a bit more than half of what the grav cannon tacticals are doing vs 3+ tanks and 2/3 of what they are doing vs terminators, at a shorter range as well given the difficulty of getting that many conscripts in 24'' range. Tac marines which are specialized to deal with good saves or tanks will outdo conscripts against such targets. So I will amend my earlier statement: Conscripts are better at everything tactical marines can do, except for holding objectives when there are more enemy models close by, or kill targets with high T/good saves when the tac marines are specialized to kill such targets.
In the case where you use tactical marines with heavy weapons you have also further reduced their relative survivability, their mobility goes down given the heavy weapons and their ability to kill low T/bad save targets like ork boyz or GEQ is still far worse than that of the conscripts. The conscripts are specialized to kill regular infantry, just like the tac squad in this case is specialized to kill tanks (to the point where it would be better as a dev squad). The conscripts will be better at killing such targets no matter what a tactical squad brings, and aren't meant to shoot at other targets in an AM list since they have other specialized units for that role.
Agreed, the conscripts are good at killing basic infantry. And that's where overall army composition and strategy comes in. Marines can take their TLAC Razors for extra anti-infantry firepower, to cover for the Tactical squads lack in that department. They could probably screen Tac squads from massed conscripts by positioning their squad behind and to the side of the Razorback, stuff like that, which sounds satisfyingly like some sort of tactic. The Guard make up for conscripts lack of AT by taking their own vehicles etc. and everybody throws down.
Don't get me wrong, I think conscripts are a powerful tool in the box, I just don't see them as game breaking even with orders and Commissars. Maybe if you took not 50, but hundreds of them. That would be a bear. If anything, I'd be fine with limiting the number of squads one could take, but that's a little beyond my interest in the conversation. I'd like to know what happens to that guy who's bringing like 400 or something to a tournament.
I agree in both cases, the conscripts are not as good against vehicles or 2+ saves and can't be modified to make them better against those targets than certain builds of tac marines can be. The conscripts are doing a bit more than half of what the grav cannon tacticals are doing vs 3+ tanks and 2/3 of what they are doing vs terminators, at a shorter range as well given the difficulty of getting that many conscripts in 24'' range. Tac marines which are specialized to deal with good saves or tanks will outdo conscripts against such targets. So I will amend my earlier statement: Conscripts are better at everything tactical marines can do, except for holding objectives when there are more enemy models close by, or kill targets with high T/good saves when the tac marines are specialized to kill such targets.
In the case where you use tactical marines with heavy weapons you have also further reduced their relative survivability, their mobility goes down given the heavy weapons and their ability to kill low T/bad save targets like ork boyz or GEQ is still far worse than that of the conscripts. The conscripts are specialized to kill regular infantry, just like the tac squad in this case is specialized to kill tanks (to the point where it would be better as a dev squad). The conscripts will be better at killing such targets no matter what a tactical squad brings, and aren't meant to shoot at other targets in an AM list since they have other specialized units for that role.
Agreed, the conscripts are good at killing basic infantry. And that's where overall army composition and strategy comes in. Marines can take their TLAC Razors for extra anti-infantry firepower, to cover for the Tactical squads lack in that department. They could probably screen Tac squads from massed conscripts by positioning their squad behind and to the side of the Razorback, stuff like that, which sounds satisfyingly like some sort of tactic. The Guard make up for conscripts lack of AT by taking their own vehicles etc. and everybody throws down.
Don't get me wrong, I think conscripts are a powerful tool in the box, I just don't see them as game breaking even with orders and Commissars. Maybe if you took not 50, but hundreds of them. That would be a bear. If anything, I'd be fine with limiting the number of squads one could take, but that's a little beyond my interest in the conversation. I'd like to know what happens to that guy who's bringing like 400 or something to a tournament.
You proved in this post you're ignoring part of the problem in the same way Eldar apologists did in the past with Wave Serpents and Scatterbikes.
"Maybe if you took not 50, but hundreds of them"
Remember how some of the apologists for Scatterbikes and Serpents said, "Well nobody is going to bring that many anyway, so it isn't an issue"? How about the Gladius apologists who were like, "Nobody is gonna bring that many Razorbacks, so you can relax", when a 5 year old could convert any Rhino into a Razorback? How about when they just brought the Rhinos anyway, because a firing port for a Grav Cannon can be pretty darn useful?
You're deciding it isn't a problem because, "Who would actually do it?" Lots of people will.
How are we 18 pages into this thread and people are still saying "oh, IF they bring 100 or IF they all have orders..."
Yeah, no, that's the whole point. That's the whole problem. That's why this is an 18 page long thread and why there are multiple long threads on the topic.
50 man units benefit disproportionately from buffs. Conscripts are a really effective meat shield at 3ppm, but they're totally fine on their own. At 4ppm (counting buff models as part of their cost), they gain 4+ BS, double the shots (or the ability to fall back and still shoot), and immunity to morale. That's why they're OP.
I agree in both cases, the conscripts are not as good against vehicles or 2+ saves and can't be modified to make them better against those targets than certain builds of tac marines can be. The conscripts are doing a bit more than half of what the grav cannon tacticals are doing vs 3+ tanks and 2/3 of what they are doing vs terminators, at a shorter range as well given the difficulty of getting that many conscripts in 24'' range. Tac marines which are specialized to deal with good saves or tanks will outdo conscripts against such targets. So I will amend my earlier statement: Conscripts are better at everything tactical marines can do, except for holding objectives when there are more enemy models close by, or kill targets with high T/good saves when the tac marines are specialized to kill such targets.
In the case where you use tactical marines with heavy weapons you have also further reduced their relative survivability, their mobility goes down given the heavy weapons and their ability to kill low T/bad save targets like ork boyz or GEQ is still far worse than that of the conscripts. The conscripts are specialized to kill regular infantry, just like the tac squad in this case is specialized to kill tanks (to the point where it would be better as a dev squad). The conscripts will be better at killing such targets no matter what a tactical squad brings, and aren't meant to shoot at other targets in an AM list since they have other specialized units for that role.
Agreed, the conscripts are good at killing basic infantry. And that's where overall army composition and strategy comes in. Marines can take their TLAC Razors for extra anti-infantry firepower, to cover for the Tactical squads lack in that department. They could probably screen Tac squads from massed conscripts by positioning their squad behind and to the side of the Razorback, stuff like that, which sounds satisfyingly like some sort of tactic. The Guard make up for conscripts lack of AT by taking their own vehicles etc. and everybody throws down.
Don't get me wrong, I think conscripts are a powerful tool in the box, I just don't see them as game breaking even with orders and Commissars. Maybe if you took not 50, but hundreds of them. That would be a bear. If anything, I'd be fine with limiting the number of squads one could take, but that's a little beyond my interest in the conversation. I'd like to know what happens to that guy who's bringing like 400 or something to a tournament.
You proved in this post you're ignoring part of the problem in the same way Eldar apologists did in the past with Wave Serpents and Scatterbikes.
"Maybe if you took not 50, but hundreds of them"
Remember how some of the apologists for Scatterbikes and Serpents said, "Well nobody is going to bring that many anyway, so it isn't an issue"? How about the Gladius apologists who were like, "Nobody is gonna bring that many Razorbacks, so you can relax", when a 5 year old could convert any Rhino into a Razorback? How about when they just brought the Rhinos anyway, because a firing port for a Grav Cannon can be pretty darn useful?
You're deciding it isn't a problem because, "Who would actually do it?" Lots of people will.
Thats disingenuous, im not ignoring anything. Im saying many squads of them would be a pain, and im waiting to see how that turns out in tournament settings. Im not convinced that spending
1000 points on conscripts will actually work out that well.
In 6th and 7th the big five could expect to remove a unit of Conscripts within a single turn or two using the same points level or less. Or any other weaker armies unit for that matter.
This was bad.
In 8th you can no longer remove the unit that quickly with that little commitment.
If you commit only the Conscripts points to removing them then both the Conscripts and your unit will do very little to each other until someone commits something more.
What you need to do is commit more points than the conscripts to remove them.
Or just ignore them and go around them.
Spoiler:
In all honesty this thread has really reminded me why I started using two ships in BFG starter games that I ran.
When there was only one Cruiser under each players control the game just dragged on with the two ships cutting back and forth, dancing across the board and doing no real damage to each other for turn after turn. It usually took about eight turns worth of shooting before something noticeable happened, and by that point the beginner was well and truly bored (and I was yawning as well). Bringing two ships aside livened up the game, allowed the teaching of basic fleet manoeuvres and meant that the game went a lot quicker.
Deathypoo wrote: How are we 18 pages into this thread and people are still saying "oh, IF they bring 100 or IF they all have orders..."
Yeah, no, that's the whole point. That's the whole problem. That's why this is an 18 page long thread and why there are multiple long threads on the topic.
50 man units benefit disproportionately from buffs. Conscripts are a really effective meat shield at 3ppm, but they're totally fine on their own. At 4ppm (counting buff models as part of their cost), they gain 4+ BS, double the shots (or the ability to fall back and still shoot), and immunity to morale. That's why they're OP.
And yet we still have the same people with the impossible list that can't fight snipers or whatever.
The whole problem is that people keep creating untenable scenarios where the Conscripts are always going to be at an advantage. It doesn't work that way.
Kanluwen wrote: And yet we still have the same people with the impossible list that can't fight snipers or whatever.
The whole problem is that people keep creating untenable scenarios where the Conscripts are always going to be at an advantage. It doesn't work that way.
What advantages?
The issue with conscripts is that they are hard to kill and with orders have great damage output. The combination is the issue.
Tbh though, this is true for IG generally.
People seem loathe to say it but I expect IG will be the new Eldar for the next six months. They have so many good units.
Which is great in a way, because Guard have been garbage for years. I feel a bit bad - because I would love to collect a new Guard army (its been a 15 or so year ambition) but the current range is crap. I guess I could go full DKoK but I am not really sold.
Currently though, RG is acting as the Riptide. He is so ludicrously broken that I expect marines will win most tournaments.
Running the numbers, 100 conscript shots averages slightly less than 1 wound on a Land Raider. If the meta suddenly shifted to hundreds of conscripts, i think my first move would be to try out some Land Raider walls to block LOS and engage them on favorable terms.
Tonnes the big issue with conscripts is the commissar can make them functionally immune to morale checks for the cost of removing a single model a turn.
If the commissar's ability triggered a re-roll instead of negating the consequences, this would be much more manageable because even with a re-roll, the conscripts unit is likely going to face heavy casualties in the morale phase.
Higher leadership/lower body units like regular Guard, Veterans and Tempestus would still benefit from the re-roll as they likely lost a lot less initially.
Deathypoo wrote: How are we 18 pages into this thread and people are still saying "oh, IF they bring 100 or IF they all have orders..."
Yeah, no, that's the whole point. That's the whole problem. That's why this is an 18 page long thread and why there are multiple long threads on the topic.
50 man units benefit disproportionately from buffs. Conscripts are a really effective meat shield at 3ppm, but they're totally fine on their own. At 4ppm (counting buff models as part of their cost), they gain 4+ BS, double the shots (or the ability to fall back and still shoot), and immunity to morale. That's why they're OP.
And yet we still have the same people with the impossible list that can't fight snipers or whatever.
The whole problem is that people keep creating untenable scenarios where the Conscripts are always going to be at an advantage. It doesn't work that way.
Yes, "Untenable scenarios" like the Guard player putting his officers behind a tank or two. What kind of guard players have tanks on the field right? Totally unrealistic.
I can't speak to every example here, but all the examples I've given are from real games and people still brush it off as "that would never happen" without explaining why not. Like... this did happen to me. No matter how hard you argue that it's unlikely, I have the actual experience (as well as the math, which I've posted all over the place, and even a freaking diagram of the board I posted somewhere) showing that it HAPPENED so obviously it's likely enough. I've seen a half dozen people complaining about conscripts and describing their battles and the IG players are always like "well no WONDER you lost playing on that kind of board," but I mean those are clearly the kinds of boards we're playing on, we didn't all agree in pm's to throw a fit about conscripts and lie about what boards we're playing on.
Strategies for ignoring the conscripts lose because of their ridiculous firepower, and strategies for killing them lose because of their ridiculous durability, and every time we go around this circle the IG defenders accuse us of "moving the goalposts." It drives me bonkers.
In 6th and 7th the big five could expect to remove a unit of Conscripts within a single turn or two using the same points level or less. Or any other weaker armies unit for that matter.
This was bad.
In 8th you can no longer remove the unit that quickly with that little commitment.
If you commit only the Conscripts points to removing them then both the Conscripts and your unit will do very little to each other until someone commits something more.
What you need to do is commit more points than the conscripts to remove them.
Or just ignore them and go around them.
Spoiler:
In all honesty this thread has really reminded me why I started using two ships in BFG starter games that I ran.
When there was only one Cruiser under each players control the game just dragged on with the two ships cutting back and forth, dancing across the board and doing no real damage to each other for turn after turn. It usually took about eight turns worth of shooting before something noticeable happened, and by that point the beginner was well and truly bored (and I was yawning as well). Bringing two ships aside livened up the game, allowed the teaching of basic fleet manoeuvres and meant that the game went a lot quicker.
That's what IG players want. You are not posting in good faith at all. Please stop it. The position that conscripts put the opponent in is this: a) commit the points you are talking about and lose the match or b) try to play around the conscripts and lose the match.
Deathypoo wrote: How are we 18 pages into this thread and people are still saying "oh, IF they bring 100 or IF they all have orders..."
Yeah, no, that's the whole point. That's the whole problem. That's why this is an 18 page long thread and why there are multiple long threads on the topic.
50 man units benefit disproportionately from buffs. Conscripts are a really effective meat shield at 3ppm, but they're totally fine on their own. At 4ppm (counting buff models as part of their cost), they gain 4+ BS, double the shots (or the ability to fall back and still shoot), and immunity to morale. That's why they're OP.
And yet we still have the same people with the impossible list that can't fight snipers or whatever.
The whole problem is that people keep creating untenable scenarios where the Conscripts are always going to be at an advantage. It doesn't work that way.
Yes, "Untenable scenarios" like the Guard player putting his officers behind a tank or two. What kind of guard players have tanks on the field right? Totally unrealistic.
I can't speak to every example here, but all the examples I've given are from real games and people still brush it off as "that would never happen" without explaining why not. Like... this did happen to me. No matter how hard you argue that it's unlikely, I have the actual experience (as well as the math, which I've posted all over the place, and even a freaking diagram of the board I posted somewhere) showing that it HAPPENED so obviously it's likely enough. I've seen a half dozen people complaining about conscripts and describing their battles and the IG players are always like "well no WONDER you lost playing on that kind of board," but I mean those are clearly the kinds of boards we're playing on, we didn't all agree in pm's to throw a fit about conscripts and lie about what boards we're playing on.
Strategies for ignoring the conscripts lose because of their ridiculous firepower, and strategies for killing them lose because of their ridiculous durability, and every time we go around this circle the IG defenders accuse us of "moving the goalposts." It drives me bonkers.
In 6th and 7th the big five could expect to remove a unit of Conscripts within a single turn or two using the same points level or less. Or any other weaker armies unit for that matter.
This was bad.
In 8th you can no longer remove the unit that quickly with that little commitment.
If you commit only the Conscripts points to removing them then both the Conscripts and your unit will do very little to each other until someone commits something more.
What you need to do is commit more points than the conscripts to remove them.
Or just ignore them and go around them.
Spoiler:
In all honesty this thread has really reminded me why I started using two ships in BFG starter games that I ran.
When there was only one Cruiser under each players control the game just dragged on with the two ships cutting back and forth, dancing across the board and doing no real damage to each other for turn after turn. It usually took about eight turns worth of shooting before something noticeable happened, and by that point the beginner was well and truly bored (and I was yawning as well). Bringing two ships aside livened up the game, allowed the teaching of basic fleet manoeuvres and meant that the game went a lot quicker.
That's what IG players want. You are not posting in good faith at all. Please stop it. The position that conscripts put the opponent in is this: a) commit the points you are talking about and lose the match or b) try to play around the conscripts and lose the match.
Or C) Commit the points levels, delete the Conscripts (or leave them so dead that even with the Commissar there and orders they are no longer a threat) or D) Just ignore the Conscripts, kill the tings that can actually hurt your units and then deal with the conscripts later, or E) use sniper/Barrage weapons to remove the buff units, or F) use terrain and Rhino's/tanks to block LoS and force an engagement on your terms.
Or of course there is always plan Y) nerf the Conscripts into the ground, along with Rhino's and a few other "op" units. But I guess the Marine players are screaming for plan Z) Nerf the pitiful upstarts back into the dirt where they belong HOW DARE THEY HURT MAH MAWEENZ!111!
Deathypoo wrote: How are we 18 pages into this thread and people are still saying "oh, IF they bring 100 or IF they all have orders..."
Yeah, no, that's the whole point. That's the whole problem. That's why this is an 18 page long thread and why there are multiple long threads on the topic.
50 man units benefit disproportionately from buffs. Conscripts are a really effective meat shield at 3ppm, but they're totally fine on their own. At 4ppm (counting buff models as part of their cost), they gain 4+ BS, double the shots (or the ability to fall back and still shoot), and immunity to morale. That's why they're OP.
And yet we still have the same people with the impossible list that can't fight snipers or whatever.
The whole problem is that people keep creating untenable scenarios where the Conscripts are always going to be at an advantage. It doesn't work that way.
Yes, "Untenable scenarios" like the Guard player putting his officers behind a tank or two. What kind of guard players have tanks on the field right? Totally unrealistic.
A Leman Russ is 3 inches wide, not counting sponson width.
A Chimera is roughly the same width.
Both are also roughly 5 inches long; a bit longer if you have dozer blades on them.
If a Guard player has his officer behind a tank, then that's cut 3 inches off of their Order radius from the get-go.
And no, you can't tell me that Vox-Casters solve it--because Vox-Casters require the unit receiving the Order to have one, and Conscripts can't have one.
I can't speak to every example here, but all the examples I've given are from real games and people still brush it off as "that would never happen" without explaining why not. Like... this did happen to me. No matter how hard you argue that it's unlikely, I have the actual experience (as well as the math, which I've posted all over the place, and even a freaking diagram of the board I posted somewhere) showing that it HAPPENED so obviously it's likely enough. I've seen a half dozen people complaining about conscripts and describing their battles and the IG players are always like "well no WONDER you lost playing on that kind of board," but I mean those are clearly the kinds of boards we're playing on, we didn't all agree in pm's to throw a fit about conscripts and lie about what boards we're playing on.
Or you're not learning the point that is being made. It's like the complaints about Tau in 6th/7th where there was virtually no terrain on the board or the terrain was concentrated in one small area, allowing for a gunline to effectively concentrate on a killzone.
Strategies for ignoring the conscripts lose because of their ridiculous firepower, and strategies for killing them lose because of their ridiculous durability, and every time we go around this circle the IG defenders accuse us of "moving the goalposts." It drives me bonkers.
Putting it bluntly, you've repeatedly moved the goalposts or given scenarios that you should know are going to get laughed at from anyone with a lick of common sense when it comes to this discussion.
Deathypoo wrote: How are we 18 pages into this thread and people are still saying "oh, IF they bring 100 or IF they all have orders..."
Yeah, no, that's the whole point. That's the whole problem. That's why this is an 18 page long thread and why there are multiple long threads on the topic.
50 man units benefit disproportionately from buffs. Conscripts are a really effective meat shield at 3ppm, but they're totally fine on their own. At 4ppm (counting buff models as part of their cost), they gain 4+ BS, double the shots (or the ability to fall back and still shoot), and immunity to morale. That's why they're OP.
And yet we still have the same people with the impossible list that can't fight snipers or whatever.
The whole problem is that people keep creating untenable scenarios where the Conscripts are always going to be at an advantage. It doesn't work that way.
Yes, "Untenable scenarios" like the Guard player putting his officers behind a tank or two. What kind of guard players have tanks on the field right? Totally unrealistic.
A Leman Russ is 3 inches wide, not counting sponson width.
A Chimera is roughly the same width.
Both are also roughly 5 inches long; a bit longer if you have dozer blades on them.
If a Guard player has his officer behind a tank, then that's cut 3 inches off of their Order radius from the get-go.
And no, you can't tell me that Vox-Casters solve it--because Vox-Casters require the unit receiving the Order to have one, and Conscripts can't have one.
I can't speak to every example here, but all the examples I've given are from real games and people still brush it off as "that would never happen" without explaining why not. Like... this did happen to me. No matter how hard you argue that it's unlikely, I have the actual experience (as well as the math, which I've posted all over the place, and even a freaking diagram of the board I posted somewhere) showing that it HAPPENED so obviously it's likely enough. I've seen a half dozen people complaining about conscripts and describing their battles and the IG players are always like "well no WONDER you lost playing on that kind of board," but I mean those are clearly the kinds of boards we're playing on, we didn't all agree in pm's to throw a fit about conscripts and lie about what boards we're playing on.
Or you're not learning the point that is being made. It's like the complaints about Tau in 6th/7th where there was virtually no terrain on the board or the terrain was concentrated in one small area, allowing for a gunline to effectively concentrate on a killzone.
Strategies for ignoring the conscripts lose because of their ridiculous firepower, and strategies for killing them lose because of their ridiculous durability, and every time we go around this circle the IG defenders accuse us of "moving the goalposts." It drives me bonkers.
Putting it bluntly, you've repeatedly moved the goalposts or given scenarios that you should know are going to get laughed at from anyone with a lick of common sense when it comes to this discussion.
1) In a 50 man unit, taking a couple of models for use as "tails" to the officer is not a big deal. No, losing 2 conscripts (only when actually necessary, which it often isn't) doesn't have an appreciable impact on the unit's ability to deal or soak damage. This isn't a mystical magical technique for use in theory only, it's what I play against in real life all the time. No one said anything about Vox-casters.
2) What's funny is that while *my* experiences and problems are on more open table, there are other people complaining about all of guard's indirect fire options and how they can't see them due to too many los-blocking features, and those people are getting told how *their* tables are bad. Seems like IG adapts pretty well to either local meta. Also, "change your local club's terrain policies" is just a bad answer to begin with.
Side Note: The only time I've ever played on a table that looked anything like what's in the GW books is when I was lucky enough to play in the basement of a millionaire - and he had more square footage devoted to 40k than I have square footage in my entire apartment. I have a big apartment.
3) Respectfully disagree with your definitions of moving goalposts or common sense scenarios. From my perspective, you are making baseless claims about my scenarios (which again, are often real-life experiences backed with math to show they're not anomalies) being laughable. I honestly don't know how to make them more realistic. You won't even give concrete examples about what you mean. Tell me what perfect terrain looks like, and how it helps me.
Curious what people would think of giving Conscripts a new/separate 'variant' of Lasgun - could be 'Crude Lasgun' or 'Mass Produced Lasgun'.
24" S3 AP0 DM1 Heavy 2
Inspired in part as I was watching Enemy At The Gates - giving them a weapon with the 'Heavy' attribute forgoes the need to reduce their BS. Instead, equipped with 'Heavy'-attributed weapons they can shoot decently (BS5+) if they stand still; however, if they try moving and firing they're reduced to BS6+. Of course, you can use 'Take Aim!' to try and help mitigate that - but BS6+ with re-rolls on 1's on a Heavy 2 weapon isn't going to be huge. At least, not FRFSRF huge with Rapid Firing lasguns.
Heavy 2 does give them a 24" bubble where they pepper things with a pretty good weight of Lasgun-strength fire; however, by being Heavy it means any movement at all would drastically reduce their firepower - and Orders won't be able to mitigate that problem well... and using 'Take Aim!' means they aren't getting any other Orders.
Furthermore, taking away the actual Rapid Fire lasguns helps reduce the effectiveness of Orders somewhat without having to give them abilities to reduce/remove Orders directly (by making them only work on a 3+ or 4+ as has been mentioned, or outright negating the ability) - particularly in nullifying their ability to utilize FRFSRF - but allows the IG player to still use other Orders on his Conscripts if deemed necessary.
Just food for thought. I know in a big thread like this my posts always get lost anyway (they have in the past conscript discussions, certainly!) but like I said - came into mind watching the conscript wave attack in Enemy at the Gates.
1) If the 50 man unit is devoting models to a "tail" then the chances are that those models are not firing at you, or will not be able to fire effectively as they will be outside of the volley square. 2) Okay, so you admit it. You are fighting massed volley's on an open battlefield. Here is a hint: use terrain. indirect barrages fire? Deepstrike or outflank. Conscripts bubblewrapping those barrage vehicles? Nothing to stop you from charging across the board then. Conscript block appears? Shoot/charge it and laugh as it crumbles to naught. Conscripts have a Commissar buffing them? Shoot him. He is hiding behind the Conscripts? Use a sniper weapon or bring your own barrages. Conscripts firing massed volleys with FRFSRF? Laugh, they are firing at BS5+. They might kill two MEQ's at best. FRFSRF volleys still rustling your jimmies? Target the officer. Officer hidden behind conscripts? Sniper or Barrage. Officer hiding behind tanks? Deepstrike or Outflank.... Want me to go on? 3) Actually it is the anti-Conscripts faction that has constantly been moving the goalposts to the point that we now have the Schrodinger's Conscripts. According to you lot Conscripts are: -Always taken in at least two 50 man blobs, and usually 3 -Always within range of a Commissar so they dont run away -Always receiving orders no matter what and always within range to receive them -Always within 12" of your infantry and formed up for a perfect volley (I would love to see this BTW - as well as the look on my opponents face when 50 infantry form up into a square at point blank range) -Always bubblewrapping the Commissar -Always bubblewrapping the Company Commander -Who is always hidden behind cover and/or tanks -Always bubblewrapping the artillery and tanks -Always spread out so that moving past them is impossible -Always camping the objectives, so taking them is impossible -Always lined up along the rear edge, so outflanking is impossible -Always dispersed amongst the vulnerable body of the army, so Deepstriking is impossible -Always have room to fall back from out of combat -Always FRFSRF no matter what -Always formed at full 50 man strength when they fire, no matter how many casualties they have suffered -Never take casualties despite being T laughable and wearing cardboard for armour -Will destroy anything that faces them, even though statistically they struggle to put A wound on a Rhino, even with FRFSRF
You know, this does sound a lot like a red herring, and this case like that of rustled jimmies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, do searchlights buff our BS now? I must have missed that, but all my tanks will see a whole new lease of life now.
Also, do searchlights buff our BS now? I must have missed that, but all my tanks will see a whole new lease of life now.
Unfortunately for your tanks, I believe the searchlights only work on infantry units. But yes, they raise BS.
Also, conscripts can spread out and bubble wrap against CC armies and they can move in tight blocks to exchange shots vs. shooty armies and we can complain about their superb effectiveness at both things. Just because we're complaining about both things doesn't mean that we think they can do all the things all the time.
GhostRecon wrote: Curious what people would think of giving Conscripts a new/separate 'variant' of Lasgun - could be 'Crude Lasgun' or 'Mass Produced Lasgun'.
Also, do searchlights buff our BS now? I must have missed that, but all my tanks will see a whole new lease of life now.
Unfortunately for your tanks, I believe the searchlights only work on infantry units. But yes, they raise BS.
So again, your ideal situation requires more support units and ignores any potential support units on the part of whatever is firing at the Conscripts.
Also, conscripts can spread out and bubble wrap against CC armies and they can move in tight blocks to exchange shots vs. shooty armies and we can complain about their superb effectiveness at both things. Just because we're complaining about both things doesn't mean that we think they can do all the things all the time.
Considering the sheer amount of misinformation given in this and other threads regarding the Orders system, MoO has a point.
1) In a 50 man unit, taking a couple of models for use as "tails" to the officer is not a big deal. No, losing 2 conscripts (only when actually necessary, which it often isn't) doesn't have an appreciable impact on the unit's ability to deal or soak damage. This isn't a mystical magical technique for use in theory only, it's what I play against in real life all the time. No one said anything about Vox-casters.
You're talking about someone hiding Officers behind a tank.
I'm telling you that there is a range issue doing so. The only way to alleviate it is weird wraparounds with the "tail" you keep talking about or Vox-Casters.
2) What's funny is that while *my* experiences and problems are on more open table, there are other people complaining about all of guard's indirect fire options and how they can't see them due to too many los-blocking features, and those people are getting told how *their* tables are bad. Seems like IG adapts pretty well to either local meta. Also, "change your local club's terrain policies" is just a bad answer to begin with.
If your local club's terrain policies are that bad to begin with, find another club.
Side Note: The only time I've ever played on a table that looked anything like what's in the GW books is when I was lucky enough to play in the basement of a millionaire - and he had more square footage devoted to 40k than I have square footage in my entire apartment. I have a big apartment.
You don't need a board that looks like something out of GW's books using their kits.
But whatever. Maybe I'm weird in that I enjoy building scenery, and thus have a good amount...
3) Respectfully disagree with your definitions of moving goalposts or common sense scenarios. From my perspective, you are making baseless claims about my scenarios (which again, are often real-life experiences backed with math to show they're not anomalies) being laughable. I honestly don't know how to make them more realistic. You won't even give concrete examples about what you mean. Tell me what perfect terrain looks like, and how it helps me.
"Perfect terrain" is going to be dependent upon you and your opponent.
But sure. Keep pretending that my claims are baseless or that you have the monopoly on all the information.
GhostRecon wrote: Curious what people would think of giving Conscripts a new/separate 'variant' of Lasgun - could be 'Crude Lasgun' or 'Mass Produced Lasgun'.
24" S3 AP0 DM1 Heavy 2
Inspired in part as I was watching Enemy At The Gates - giving them a weapon with the 'Heavy' attribute forgoes the need to reduce their BS. Instead, equipped with 'Heavy'-attributed weapons they can shoot decently (BS5+) if they stand still; however, if they try moving and firing they're reduced to BS6+. Of course, you can use 'Take Aim!' to try and help mitigate that - but BS6+ with re-rolls on 1's on a Heavy 2 weapon isn't going to be huge. At least, not FRFSRF huge with Rapid Firing lasguns.
Heavy 2 does give them a 24" bubble where they pepper things with a pretty good weight of Lasgun-strength fire; however, by being Heavy it means any movement at all would drastically reduce their firepower - and Orders won't be able to mitigate that problem well... and using 'Take Aim!' means they aren't getting any other Orders.
Furthermore, taking away the actual Rapid Fire lasguns helps reduce the effectiveness of Orders somewhat without having to give them abilities to reduce/remove Orders directly (by making them only work on a 3+ or 4+ as has been mentioned, or outright negating the ability) - particularly in nullifying their ability to utilize FRFSRF - but allows the IG player to still use other Orders on his Conscripts if deemed necessary.
Just food for thought. I know in a big thread like this my posts always get lost anyway (they have in the past conscript discussions, certainly!) but like I said - came into mind watching the conscript wave attack in Enemy at the Gates.
This is an interesting proposition. Normally you wouldn't want to move Conscripts anyway for the most part, but failing to deploy them well, and therefore needing to move them, gives a penalty. I kinda like this.
So again, your ideal situation requires more support units and ignores any potential support units on the part of whatever is firing at the Conscripts.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I am absolutely willing to consider any and all buffs for whoever is firing at the conscripts. However, I will point out that one of the reasons conscripts are so good is that buffs multiplied by 50 are insanely points efficient. For example, a 20 point searchlight equates to less than 0.4 points per buffed conscript, which is 13% more ppm, and 4+ BS ups their effective firepower by 50%.
You're talking about someone hiding Officers behind a tank.
I'm telling you that there is a range issue doing so. The only way to alleviate it is weird wraparounds with the "tail" you keep talking about or Vox-Casters.
Yeah, and I'm telling you that adding the tail isn't some crazy self-defeating action. 2 conscripts adds 6" of range. It's not hard.
No one ever came up with a winning answer to my challenge in the other thread - build me a 400~450 point Craftworld Eldar army capable of beating the 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights combo (401 points). I don't care if it's tailored and will suck vs. any other opponent. Come up with whatever terrain advantage for Eldar that you want but don't assume the IG player deploys like an idiot. 4'x4' table (small points= small board). Please, take a stab at it. Find me something that wins the game for Eldar - like I've said before I'd rather find a viable army than win an argument on the internet, so show me what to take.
I won't ask you to do the math, because it's long and boring and because if you do the math you'll see the Eldar lose with any units they take, every time. But do stick around to tell me where you think I went wrong when I do the math for you after.
No one ever came up with a winning answer to my challenge in the other thread - build me a 400~450 point Craftworld Eldar army capable of beating the 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights combo (401 points). I don't care if it's tailored and will suck vs. any other opponent. Come up with whatever terrain advantage for Eldar that you want but don't assume the IG player deploys like an idiot. 4'x4' table (small points= small board). Please, take a stab at it. Find me something that wins the game for Eldar - like I've said before I'd rather find a viable army than win an argument on the internet, so show me what to take.
I won't ask you to do the math, because it's long and boring and because if you do the math you'll see the Eldar lose with any units they take, every time. But do stick around to tell me where you think I went wrong when I do the math for you after.
I think comparing them straight point for point isnt the way to go, as I feel the game is intended for higher point values and tends not to balance well for certain units at lower point values. But Ill give it a think for fun.
Wait, is a searchlight not the old thing-on-a-vehicle, its a unit?
Step 1: get a wave serpent with a missile launcher. Searchlights have a 48" range, have no character protections, and require LoS to work. The Wave Serpent can pick off searchlights early on, negating 1/3 of that list's firepower immediately. Once the searchlights are down its blast mode, twin shuriken catapult, and shield discharge should be able to reasonably contribute to anti-infantry.
It also gets you 13 T7/3+ wounds that they'll have to chew through sooner or later if they want to win.
Step 2: make sure your warlord is a psyker with Conceal. A Warlock will do. The -1 to hit bubble will counter the searchlights early on, and when they go down those conscripts will be hitting on 6+.
Step 3: Bring two minimum size units of swooping hawks with sunrifles. Stick them in deep strike reserve (two units on the table, two in reserve, checks out) to protect them from alpha strikes. Doing this also forces him to deploy in a counter-deepstrike formation, which in turn will allow you to drop into whichever piece of board can bring the fewest models to bear. Position yourself right and he might only be able to bring one of the two squads in range at all, and that only partially.
Warlock's job is to cast conceal every turn and be a walking -1 to hit bubble. The wave serpent can protect him from shooting until the hawks drop. Wave serpent's job is to take out the searchlights, be a wound sponge, then help mop up. Swooping hawks give the conscripts another -1 to hit, so they'll only hit on 6s while the searchlights are up, and be completely harmless when the searchlights are down.
If the opportunity presents itself the swooping hawks can leap over the conscripts, carpet-bombing them in the process, and take out the commissar/officer from behind to speed things up, then if they survive hop back over to the safety of the warlock. Since they and the wave serpent have Fly, they can also do an assault-withdraw-shoot cycle to throw some extra dice around (and if they withdraw instead, you negate FRFSRF. Win-win).
Peak single-round dice output should be 40 from the sunburst rifles, 10 power sword attacks (20 if the conscripts don't withdraw, but they probably will), 2d6+4 from the wave serpent's guns, and a couple mortal wounds from shield discharge and grenade bombing.
While it won't wipe out the conscripts quickly, it should eventually win by attrition. The missile launcher with its d6 damage (and two shots) shouldn't have much trouble taking out the 3-wound searchlights, the Wave Serpent is the only alpha strike target and it'll be fine, and the whole game the conscripts will be either hitting on 6 or unable to hit. The ability to dictate where the engagement happens should also allow the hawks to basically shut out one of the two squads for a couple turns via positioning, so they can achieve defeat-in-detail. And throwing a bit over 50 dice per round means they should be putting out enough damage to wrap things up by turn 5, especially since the conscripts won't get saves against most of it.
Should comfortably fit within a 500 point game (because who the heck plays exactly 400). If you do need to squeeze it into exactly 400, you'll have to drop a couple sunrifles for lasblasters. Allocate wounds to those unfortunate models first, to protect the sunrifles. You won't care about being in rapid-fire range because they won't be able to hit you.
I still think that setting them to 20 models, no more, no less, is the way to go.
It allows for some orders but not the raw power that they currently have.
It allows Commissars to still do their thing but it's hard to keep 100 models in range of 2 guys.
It leaves the point cost where it should be but puts a 'Detachment Tax" that clogs the pipes a bit like a ratio with normal troopers.
It adds more drops, making the IG player less likely to have a first strike.
It reduces the power of Overwatch by reducing the number of shots launched.
It's the smallest change with the biggest result, requires no "Special case" rules and still leaves them useful without being dominant.
sossen wrote: IWe are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.
Oh ok, so ork boyz then? Because 180 points of conscripts + commissar is wiped out by 360 points of boyz.
60 boys.
240 attacks.
Hitting on 3s - 161 hits.
Wounding on 3s - 108 wounds.
5+ flak armour - 72 unsaved wounds.
Wiped out in 1 turn. Would you look at that.
sossen wrote: IWe are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.
Oh ok, so ork boyz then? Because 180 points of conscripts + commissar is wiped out by 360 points of boyz.
60 boys.
240 attacks.
Hitting on 3s - 161 hits.
Wounding on 3s - 108 wounds.
5+ flak armour - 72 unsaved wounds.
Wiped out in 1 turn. Would you look at that.
I don't know if you have read the rest of the thread, but I figured that it would be obvious from the context that I am talking about ranged weapons.
sossen wrote: IWe are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.
Oh ok, so ork boyz then? Because 180 points of conscripts + commissar is wiped out by 360 points of boyz.
60 boys.
240 attacks.
Hitting on 3s - 161 hits.
Wounding on 3s - 108 wounds.
5+ flak armour - 72 unsaved wounds.
Wiped out in 1 turn. Would you look at that.
I don't know if you have read the rest of the thread, but I figured that it would be obvious from the context that I am talking about ranged weapons.
But I thought you wanted the 'Optimal answers' to conscripts. And that would be assault units. Face it, buddy - conscripts are very durable against shooting. Luckily, they have counters like everything else. Just saying 'I don't want to use that solution' does not fly.
sossen wrote: IWe are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.
Oh ok, so ork boyz then? Because 180 points of conscripts + commissar is wiped out by 360 points of boyz.
60 boys.
240 attacks.
Hitting on 3s - 161 hits.
Wounding on 3s - 108 wounds.
5+ flak armour - 72 unsaved wounds.
Wiped out in 1 turn. Would you look at that.
I don't know if you have read the rest of the thread, but I figured that it would be obvious from the context that I am talking about ranged weapons.
But I thought you wanted the 'Optimal answers' to conscripts. And that would be assault units. Face it, buddy - conscripts are very durable against shooting. Luckily, they have counters like everything else. Just saying 'I don't want to use that solution' does not fly.
It has nothing to do with not wanting to use melee answers. The comparison is being made with ranged units for a reason. Of course melee units are more efficient once they actually get into melee, that's a given and has been mentioned before in this thread. Don't just reply to the thread if you haven't read all of it.
Also, conscripts can spread out and bubble wrap against CC armies and they can move in tight blocks to exchange shots vs. shooty armies and we can complain about their superb effectiveness at both things. Just because we're complaining about both things doesn't mean that we think they can do all the things all the time.
Well if they form up for volley blocks then just go around them and shoot out the support, if they spread out to cover the entire line DS behind them or just shoot until a hole opens up in the line, if they bubblewrap ignore whatever they are bubblewrapping and shoot everything else or use barrage, and if they are lined for anti-outflank or scattered for anti-DS then just go through the rest of the army.
Its called adapting and it is something we had to do a lot back when we where weak.
Wakshaani wrote: I still think that setting them to 20 models, no more, no less, is the way to go.
It allows for some orders but not the raw power that they currently have.
It allows Commissars to still do their thing but it's hard to keep 100 models in range of 2 guys.
It leaves the point cost where it should be but puts a 'Detachment Tax" that clogs the pipes a bit like a ratio with normal troopers.
It adds more drops, making the IG player less likely to have a first strike.
It reduces the power of Overwatch by reducing the number of shots launched.
It's the smallest change with the biggest result, requires no "Special case" rules and still leaves them useful without being dominant.
Conscripts = 20 models, done.
Most of the players in the top 10 of BAO used squads of 20-30 Conscripts (the winner had 4x 30 Conscripts). So, unfortunately your suggested fix doesn't necessarily change things - still feels like the majority (or vocal minority, hard to tell) just don't want to see any Conscripts in a list. There's already increasing talk of Scions again too - after that, probably finally to the AMFW options, Manticores, etc. Maybe AM will be 'balanced' if they never appear in the top 10 of a tourney again... apparently.
I still feel nerfing Orders won't 'fix' the problem in the 'Conscripts are OP' crowd either - even if you completely remove the prospect of Orders you're still looking at a squad of up to 50 models that are effectively immune to battleshock. Indeed, it seems as if 1/3rd of the argument focused on their firepower thanks to FRFSRF, but 2/3rds continue to focus on how much shooting is required to completely eliminate a Conscript squad. So how does nerfing their ability to get Orders fix the problem? Even using GBITF just touches on the symptom of the real problem, I feel - their durability.
Moderate their synergy with a Commissar and even if there isn't a change to how they take Orders at all the increased attrition in the unit will make using those Orders much less efficient and attractive.
GhostRecon wrote: feels like the majority (or vocal minority, hard to tell) just don't want to see any Conscripts in a list. There's already increasing talk of Scions again too - after that, probably finally to the AMFW options, Manticores, etc. Maybe AM will be 'balanced' if they never appear in the top 10 of a tourney again... apparently.
Pretty much this. Guard become competitive and balanced for the first time in years and suddenly we have this huge outcry.
Just make orders fail on conscripts 50% of the time and have the commissar have to roll a 3+ save each time he needs to put down a conscript due to moral. If he fails it the conscripts attack the commissar doing d3 mortal wounds and behave normally for their leadership.
Conscripts are undisciplined and untrained prone to panic possibly overwhelming nearby authority figures in their panic.
Maybe a fix to Summary execution to the following "Friendly AM units within 6" never lose more than one model to a single failed morale test, so long as casualties taken does not exceed the LD of the squad. If they take more casualties than their LD lose D6 models"
This would make it so that only conscripts ever lose more than a single model. However if conscripts lose 9+ models they take D6 losses.
If D6 seems too steep it could also go D3.
Or if we don't care about more complexity make it 1 loss up to LD, then D3 until 2x LD, after that D6.
sossen wrote:You'd need a pretty big ego to think that the reason why people don't like the power level of conscripts is because they are part of AM.
Well, seeing as this is the first time in however long that we have been competitive and people are already screaming about it what am I supposed to think? Especially when something as simple and mono-use as conscripts are being targeted as "over powered".
BaconCatBug wrote:6+ Armour Save, No Orders, Commissars can't affect them, 20 model limit and 5ppm
See this right here? Yeah, have fun Guard players when everything you have is statistically worse per point cost than every other factions models. After all, we cannot have balance when Guard players can compete on an equal footing can we? That said it would not be anything new for us, after all we spent two entire editions at the bottom.
It has nothing to do with not wanting to use melee answers. The comparison is being made with ranged units for a reason. Of course melee units are more efficient once they actually get into melee, that's a given and has been mentioned before in this thread. Don't just reply to the thread if you haven't read all of it.
What was the reason again? Something about wanting to legitimize whining rather than look for rreasonable counters maybe? I forget now, please refresh my memory.
Just to show the conundrum conscripts put players in, I just got absolutely stomped by Nidzilla this weekend. I had beefed up my anti-horde, but didn't play an IG opponent. The plasma bugs crippled me in two short turns. At least for marines, there is no way at all to prepare for Nidzilla and conscripts. Whereas conscripts make Nidzilla look FOOLISH.
It has nothing to do with not wanting to use melee answers. The comparison is being made with ranged units for a reason. Of course melee units are more efficient once they actually get into melee, that's a given and has been mentioned before in this thread. Don't just reply to the thread if you haven't read all of it.
What was the reason again? Something about wanting to legitimize whining rather than look for rreasonable counters maybe? I forget now, please refresh my memory.
The Orks will never get there. Come on now. You can get 20 boyz there because of battlewagons, but 60 boyz on foot? None of them make it.
master of ordinance wrote: >Takes anti-horde against Nidzilla and loses
>Somehow this legitimises anti-conscript whining
Can someone please show me the link here because I see none?
It is a statement about TAC lists. He is building extra anti-horde into his list incase of conscript spam, because without it he cannot handle conscript spam, then he ends up against a list with no chaff, and is on the back foot.
Your comment seems to suggest that people should be list tailoring to each opponent because then there is no issue with conscripts.
This discussion is redundant, the math is here for anyone who wants it and the latest tournament results back it up. Feel free to find the conscript counter that doesnt lose to everything else and bring that list to a tournament.
master of ordinance wrote: >Takes anti-horde against Nidzilla and loses
>Somehow this legitimises anti-conscript whining
Can someone please show me the link here because I see none?
It is a statement about TAC lists. He is building extra anti-horde into his list incase of conscript spam, because without it he cannot handle conscript spam, then he ends up against a list with no chaff, and is on the back foot.
Your comment seems to suggest that people should be list tailoring to each opponent because then there is no issue with conscripts.
Why not? It is literally what Guard players had to do for several editions.
master of ordinance wrote: have fun Guard players when everything you have is statistically worse per point cost than every other factions models
Sigh, your supposed to be worse than everyone. Your Guard. Let alone conscripts.
Very limited training. Possably as little as a week. Maybe 6 months at the most. Theyre there to hopefully clog land raider tracks with there bodies.
So no orders. The comish can try and make them follow orders with the sacrifice of 1 for every 10 models. IF he rolls over the basic conscript Ld. If not they die and order and the order fails.
Teachers cant control 30 kids, never mind a adult trying to control 50 adults.
You want orders get trained regular guard.
Im tempted to make them only hit shots on a 6 as well. but little steps.
master of ordinance wrote: >Takes anti-horde against Nidzilla and loses
>Somehow this legitimises anti-conscript whining
Can someone please show me the link here because I see none?
It is a statement about TAC lists. He is building extra anti-horde into his list incase of conscript spam, because without it he cannot handle conscript spam, then he ends up against a list with no chaff, and is on the back foot.
Your comment seems to suggest that people should be list tailoring to each opponent because then there is no issue with conscripts.
Why not? It is literally what Guard players had to do for several editions.
? No idea what you are even talking about, guard players guard players had to list tailor? Or they had to lose in bad match-ups? In either case that was bad for guard then, it doesn't make it ok or others now. Your mindset seems to be "we sucked last edition so now it is our turn to be broken!" This mindset results in a bad game.
1) The list that won BAO had 120 conscripts in it, among other things. I still agree that they're OP with orders (i.e. in their current state), but I also think that once you remove orders from them, the problem goes away as their damage output normalizes back to 'sucky' from 'surprisingly good.'
2) It's worth noting that I have believed that the idea of a 'TAC' list has been dead since 5th edition, due to the presence of skew lists such as IG Armoured Company existing concurrently with vehicle-less Green Tide.
They are still very good without orders, as shown by the third place list running conscripts+commissar in an SM army. Many similar lists in the tourney. Maybe too good even without orders, maybe not.
sossen wrote: They are still very good without orders, as shown by the third place list running conscripts+commissar in an SM army. Many similar lists in the tourney. Maybe too good even without orders, maybe not.
That is because they are not primarily used for their shooting, but instead as a wall to buy time to shoot things all game long.
A list with 120 conscripts can protect it's firebase for 5 turns pretty reliably.
master of ordinance wrote: have fun Guard players when everything you have is statistically worse per point cost than every other factions models
Sigh, your supposed to be worse than everyone. Your Guard. Let alone conscripts.
No, we are meant to be a professional army. Stop reading bolter porn and start reading the Guard fluff. There is very little about us being "worse than everyone else". Yes, we are not bio engineered killers or super humans but we are not just a mass of peasants either. Depending on the regiment, some Guard units are incredibly well trained to the point that they make some modern armies of today look poor.
Very limited training. Possably as little as a week. Maybe 6 months at the most. Theyre there to hopefully clog land raider tracks with there bodies.
Phantine airborne have a year and a half worth of training. Tanith First had a year of intense training. Urdeshi and Mordians both have about two years. Death Korps have a theoretical lifetimes worth of training. Only a couple of units have less than a years worth of training and drill before they are committed.
Conscripts represent first deployment units and scratch companies, which if anyone remembers Vervunhive, have the potential to be anything from unwilling cowards to selfless heroes.
So no orders.
Okay. But Tactical Marines and Scouts dont get to benefit from Chapter Tactics.
The comish can try and make them follow orders with the sacrifice of 1 for every 10 models.
So in other words if you want to put orders on your Conscripts you first have to sacrifice 10% of the unit? Hahaha no.
IF he rolls over the basic conscript Ld. If not they die and order and the order fails.
And even after sacrificing 10% of the unit you still have a 50% chance to fail. Which means you lose the entire unit.
on a side note this is the most slowed suggestion yet... Then again it comes from a roflstomp Marine player so I am not surprised.
Teachers cant control 30 kids, never mind a adult trying to control 50 adults.
There is a difference between Commissars and Teachers. Why dont you try and read up on Russia in WW2? Commissars quite literally had Conscript units marching through mine fields in order to clear them.
You want orders get trained regular guard.
You mean the guys who are still too expensive to ever really work? And can only be taken in 10 man blobs? I have a better idea: Orders affect all units with a vox caster or within 6" of the Command Section, meaning that you can order more than two units a turn.
Im tempted to make them only hit shots on a 6 as well. but little steps.
Yeah, baby steps first. After all we want to have something in reserve in case nerfing them into extinction is not quite enough.
1) The list that won BAO had 120 conscripts in it, among other things. I still agree that they're OP with orders (i.e. in their current state), but I also think that once you remove orders from them, the problem goes away as their damage output normalizes back to 'sucky' from 'surprisingly good.'
You want the problem fixed?
Make infantry squads a viable alternative. Seriously, there's a reason why people are talking about Conscripts instead of an equivalent number of Guardsmen.
2) It's worth noting that I have believed that the idea of a 'TAC' list has been dead since 5th edition, due to the presence of skew lists such as IG Armoured Company existing concurrently with vehicle-less Green Tide.
The TAC list is a mythical thing, as most of the people who try to put it out there as an option do so for their opponent's army not their own.
sossen wrote: They are still very good without orders, as shown by the third place list running conscripts+commissar in an SM army. Many similar lists in the tourney. Maybe too good even without orders, maybe not.
That is because they are not primarily used for their shooting, but instead as a wall to buy time to shoot things all game long.
A list with 120 conscripts can protect it's firebase for 5 turns pretty reliably.
The same can be said of most armies that take 120 of something cheap in a Troops slot.
Kanluwen7339779524733af19f998e5e56a6263a9964853db5aa2.jpg wrote:You want the problem fixed?
Make infantry squads a viable alternative. Seriously, there's a reason why people are talking about Conscripts instead of an equivalent number of Guardsmen.
So the solution to conscripts being OP is to buff guardsmen?
Kanluwen7339779524733af19f998e5e56a6263a9964853db5aa2.jpg wrote:The same can be said of most armies that take 120 of something cheap in a Troops slot.
Brimstone horrors are also OP. No other units are in the same league or context as conscripts.
Huh. BAO winner had a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts in it. This weekend, I played against a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts (and my CSMs got quickly trashed.) Feels like word is getting around.
Have done a complete 180 on conscripts after playing against them in an optimized list. Trying not to overreact, but it feels like the challenges are a little more clear at this point. I would sum them up 2 ways:
1) Huge blobs do benefit disproportionately from buffs (like Deathypoo said.) It's hard when a large unit suddenly doubles it's rate of fire. It's very hard when 4 of them do it at the same time.
2) Named characters benefit disproportionately from huge blobs. Gulliman hits like a titan and the fact you can't take wounds off him unless he's the closest model is a problem.
On their own, either of these challenges could be dealt with, it's the presence of both together in cheap squads that is the issue.
Earlier in this thread it was suggested a Rhino could be considered OP based on a metric related to how many points of other models would be required to kill it. I really think this discussion would benefit by focusing on the ways units synergize with other models on the table and the rules mechanics they affect. OP should have a specific meaning and it should be able to be applied to a variety of situations and have a predictable outcome.
Someone suggested to me in another thread that CSMs could do the equivalent by taking a Daemon Prince surrounded by cultists. I would argue it's a very different situation because a) it's not just about wounds, it's about the added offense and b) the presence of orders can change the battlefield utility for conscripts very quickly. There's no similar mechanic for cultists to go from meatshields to legitimate threat, and a DP does not hit has hard as a primarch. You're never going to get the same results.
Kanluwen7339779524733af19f998e5e56a6263a9964853db5aa2.jpg wrote:You want the problem fixed?
Make infantry squads a viable alternative. Seriously, there's a reason why people are talking about Conscripts instead of an equivalent number of Guardsmen.
So the solution to conscripts being OP is to buff guardsmen?
Yes. That's what I said.
I'm saying that if you want Conscripts to stop being such an attractive option, make Guardsmen an option on par.
Kanluwen7339779524733af19f998e5e56a6263a9964853db5aa2.jpg wrote:The same can be said of most armies that take 120 of something cheap in a Troops slot.
Brimstone horrors are also OP. No other units are in the same league or context as conscripts.
*No other units synergize as well as Conscripts and the support within a Guard army
Fixed that for you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
techsoldaten wrote: Huh. BAO winner had a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts in it. This weekend, I played against a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts (and my CSMs got quickly trashed.) Feels like word is getting around.
Word was getting around since day one, basically, about "Insert Guilliman and whatever units" all over the place. It's a side effect of the Imperium keyword thing.
Have done a complete 180 on conscripts after playing against them in an optimized list. Trying not to overreact, but it feels like the challenges are a little more clear at this point. I would sum them up 2 ways:
1) Huge blobs do benefit disproportionately from buffs (like Deathypoo said.) It's hard when a large unit suddenly doubles it's rate of fire. It's very hard when 4 of them do it at the same time.
So kill the officers and they aren't "suddenly doubling" their rate of fire.
Or--and I'm just spitballing here--don't stand out in the bloody open in front of 120 Conscripts?
2) Named characters benefit disproportionately from huge blobs. Gulliman hits like a titan and the fact you can't take wounds off him unless he's the closest model is a problem.
This is less of an easy solution--and I'm actually really glad for it. Without the protections of the LOS bit for shooting, it'd just be shoot the heroes and ignore the other stuff.
It requires you to actually have to maneuver to get angles on the characters.
*inb4 "but the tail!"*
On their own, either of these challenges could be dealt with, it's the presence of both together in cheap squads that is the issue.
Earlier in this thread it was suggested a Rhino could be considered OP based on a metric related to how many points of other models would be required to kill it. I really think this discussion would benefit by focusing on the ways units synergize with other models on the table and the rules mechanics they affect. OP should have a specific meaning and it should be able to be applied to a variety of situations and have a predictable outcome.
Someone suggested to me in another thread that CSMs could do the equivalent by taking a Daemon Prince surrounded by cultists. I would argue it's a very different situation because a) it's not just about wounds, it's about the added offense and b) the presence of orders can change the battlefield utility for conscripts very quickly. There's no similar mechanic for cultists to go from meatshields to legitimate threat, and a DP does not hit has hard as a primarch. You're never going to get the same results.
If we're going to talk about that, it's important to remember that your Cultists can take upgrades like Heavy Stubbers and Flamethrowers.
Conscripts can't. They have their Lasguns and Grenades and can't get anything more.
sossen wrote: They are still very good without orders, as shown by the third place list running conscripts+commissar in an SM army. Many similar lists in the tourney. Maybe too good even without orders, maybe not.
That is because they are not primarily used for their shooting, but instead as a wall to buy time to shoot things all game long.
A list with 120 conscripts can protect it's firebase for 5 turns pretty reliably.
The same can be said of most armies that take 120 of something cheap in a Troops slot.
And what other army is that?
I'm struggling to find another army that uses a firebase and has access to 120 cheap anything.
Nids? pay more for chaff and have worse shooting, not their optimal build, chaff is less durable.
Orks? Shooting is terrible, gretchin are significantly worse than conscripts for the same cost, not optimal build, boyz cost more for similar durability against small arms fire.
Daemons? Brims are broken, bad example that should also be nerfed, and then they only protect a fire base in a CSM list because daemons don't shoot.
CSM? Cultists are more expensive, and less durable.
Tau? Their troops are significantly more expensive, Kroot are twice as expensive, and less durable, in smaller squads.
Cultists are the closest analog- they cost 2 points more and have a 6+ save, they shoot slightly better, but cannot double their shots, getting them re-rolls is very expensive, and making them immune to morale requires abbadon or Huron blackhart, both way more expensive than a commissar. taking 120 of them would cost 600 points the cost of 200 conscripts and 240 more points than the conscripts.
The only comparable durability unit is Brims, which as I said also need a nerf because they are broken.
Gretchin which cost the same points, hit better in shooting and close combat but have less range and fewer shots, and Lower strength in CC, are way less durable *(-1 S/T and 6+ save), have a character needed for morale immunity, with a smaller bubble 93"), and a worse effect (D3 casualties). They are also slower.
techsoldaten wrote: Huh. BAO winner had a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts in it. This weekend, I played against a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts (and my CSMs got quickly trashed.) Feels like word is getting around.
Word was getting around since day one, basically, about "Insert Guilliman and whatever units" all over the place. It's a side effect of the Imperium keyword thing.
Yes, and the point is we are now starting to see people actually use this in tournaments and casual games.
Have done a complete 180 on conscripts after playing against them in an optimized list. Trying not to overreact, but it feels like the challenges are a little more clear at this point. I would sum them up 2 ways:
1) Huge blobs do benefit disproportionately from buffs (like Deathypoo said.) It's hard when a large unit suddenly doubles it's rate of fire. It's very hard when 4 of them do it at the same time.
So kill the officers and they aren't "suddenly doubling" their rate of fire.
Or--and I'm just spitballing here--don't stand out in the bloody open in front of 120 Conscripts?
CSMs don't have options here. We have no snipers, so our opponent gets to choose what models get removed. At full strength, 120 conscripts can cover a lot of real estate. There's not really a place where you are not in front of them.
2) Named characters benefit disproportionately from huge blobs. Gulliman hits like a titan and the fact you can't take wounds off him unless he's the closest model is a problem.
This is less of an easy solution--and I'm actually really glad for it. Without the protections of the LOS bit for shooting, it'd just be shoot the heroes and ignore the other stuff.
It requires you to actually have to maneuver to get angles on the characters.
*inb4 "but the tail!"*
Hard to get an angle around blobs that cover that much of the table. They just bubble wrap Gulliman until it's time to charge.
On their own, either of these challenges could be dealt with, it's the presence of both together in cheap squads that is the issue.
Earlier in this thread it was suggested a Rhino could be considered OP based on a metric related to how many points of other models would be required to kill it. I really think this discussion would benefit by focusing on the ways units synergize with other models on the table and the rules mechanics they affect. OP should have a specific meaning and it should be able to be applied to a variety of situations and have a predictable outcome.
Someone suggested to me in another thread that CSMs could do the equivalent by taking a Daemon Prince surrounded by cultists. I would argue it's a very different situation because a) it's not just about wounds, it's about the added offense and b) the presence of orders can change the battlefield utility for conscripts very quickly. There's no similar mechanic for cultists to go from meatshields to legitimate threat, and a DP does not hit has hard as a primarch. You're never going to get the same results.
If we're going to talk about that, it's important to remember that your Cultists can take upgrades like Heavy Stubbers and Flamethrowers.
Conscripts can't. They have their Lasguns and Grenades and can't get anything more.
It is important to remember those upgrades are available to purchase. And that, for the price of a commisar, conscripts get orders that can double their rate of fire. The first is no where near equal to the second.
Sure, it's possible to compare cultists and conscripts apples to apples based on points and weapons upgrades, but they don't play games in a vaccum. The synergy between conscripts and other units - what they do for each others - that makes them problematic.
techsoldaten wrote: Huh. BAO winner had a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts in it. This weekend, I played against a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts (and my CSMs got quickly trashed.) Feels like word is getting around.
Word was getting around since day one, basically, about "Insert Guilliman and whatever units" all over the place. It's a side effect of the Imperium keyword thing.
Yes, and the point is we are now starting to see people actually use this in tournaments and casual games.
And?
If they're using Guilliman as part of a Conscript heavy army, they're not using something that could synergize better.
Have done a complete 180 on conscripts after playing against them in an optimized list. Trying not to overreact, but it feels like the challenges are a little more clear at this point. I would sum them up 2 ways:
1) Huge blobs do benefit disproportionately from buffs (like Deathypoo said.) It's hard when a large unit suddenly doubles it's rate of fire. It's very hard when 4 of them do it at the same time.
So kill the officers and they aren't "suddenly doubling" their rate of fire.
Or--and I'm just spitballing here--don't stand out in the bloody open in front of 120 Conscripts?
CSMs don't have options here. We have no snipers, so our opponent gets to choose what models get removed. At full strength, 120 conscripts can cover a lot of real estate. There's not really a place where you are not in front of them.
You have options.
It's called maneuvering to where you're closer to the officers than the Conscripts. Remember that the protection only applies if the character isn't closer.
2) Named characters benefit disproportionately from huge blobs. Gulliman hits like a titan and the fact you can't take wounds off him unless he's the closest model is a problem.
This is less of an easy solution--and I'm actually really glad for it. Without the protections of the LOS bit for shooting, it'd just be shoot the heroes and ignore the other stuff.
It requires you to actually have to maneuver to get angles on the characters.
*inb4 "but the tail!"*
Hard to get an angle around blobs that cover that much of the table. They just bubble wrap Gulliman until it's time to charge.
On their own, either of these challenges could be dealt with, it's the presence of both together in cheap squads that is the issue.
Earlier in this thread it was suggested a Rhino could be considered OP based on a metric related to how many points of other models would be required to kill it. I really think this discussion would benefit by focusing on the ways units synergize with other models on the table and the rules mechanics they affect. OP should have a specific meaning and it should be able to be applied to a variety of situations and have a predictable outcome.
Someone suggested to me in another thread that CSMs could do the equivalent by taking a Daemon Prince surrounded by cultists. I would argue it's a very different situation because a) it's not just about wounds, it's about the added offense and b) the presence of orders can change the battlefield utility for conscripts very quickly. There's no similar mechanic for cultists to go from meatshields to legitimate threat, and a DP does not hit has hard as a primarch. You're never going to get the same results.
If we're going to talk about that, it's important to remember that your Cultists can take upgrades like Heavy Stubbers and Flamethrowers.
Conscripts can't. They have their Lasguns and Grenades and can't get anything more.
It is important to remember those upgrades are available to purchase. And that, for the price of a commisar, conscripts get orders that can double their rate of fire. The first is no where near equal to the second.
Oh noes, they go from Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2 at over 12 inches!
Sure, it's possible to compare cultists and conscripts apples to apples based on points and weapons upgrades, but they don't play games in a vaccum. The synergy between conscripts and other units - what they do for each others - that makes them problematic.
Realistically, the problem is that Guard are finally working the way everyone aside from actual Guard players kept saying they wanted them to for ages--a wall of flesh in front of tanks and heroes.
And now that it's happened, well...serious case of buyer's remorse, eh kiddos?
It's called maneuvering to where you're closer to the officers than the Conscripts. Remember that the protection only applies if the character isn't closer.
This suggests to me that you have not played or seen conscripts used correctly.
It's called maneuvering to where you're closer to the officers than the Conscripts. Remember that the protection only applies if the character isn't closer.
This suggests to me that you have not played or seen conscripts used correctly.
Your reply suggests to me that you don't want to engage in a good faith conversation.
Once again:
There are ways to deal with this nonsense, even if it covers a large frontage. It just requires something beyond standing out in the open exchanging shots with the massive horde.
Like I said earlier the easiest solution I see is a 50% order fail on conscripts. (Conscripts are undisciplined)
When a commissar is used to prevent moral losses roll a 3+ save if he fails the conscripts rebel doing d3 mortal wounds to the commissar and eating the losses as per normal.
This allows you to still use them for bubble wrap but makes a 1/3 chance to kill the commissar and a 50% chance to ignore orders.
Finally Gurlyman needs some slight tweeks (his auras should only effect infantry with Astaries KW.
Timeshadow wrote: Like I said earlier the easiest solution I see is a 50% order fail on conscripts. (Conscripts are undisciplined)
When a commissar is used to prevent moral losses roll a 3+ save if he fails the conscripts rebel doing d3 mortal wounds to the commissar and eating the losses as per normal.
This allows you to still use them for bubble wrap but makes a 1/3 chance to kill the commissar and a 50% chance to ignore orders.
No.
Players outside of the Guard all wanted Guard to be a horde of bodies. They all kept talking about how they wanted Commissars to be a key tool for Guard players.
You reap what you sow.
Finally Gurlyman needs some slight tweeks (his auras should only effect infantry with Astaries KW.
Which Aura?
He has two of them. One only affects keyword "Ultramarines" units, the other affects keyword "Imperium" units.
Creatively used deep striking actually can do a lot to screw with conscript deployment.
If you have a lot of stuff that isn't on the board, the conscripts have two options:
1: spread across the board to limit your deep striking options
2: clump up and prepare to shoot anything that drops near them
The thing about this though, is they have to make this decision before you decide where to drop. This means that the deep striker can always react with a counter to whichever deployment method they use.
If they spread out across the board, drop an overwhelming force on one board edge so that they only have to engage one conscript squad. You should be able to punch through before the other squad can reinforce them, and proceed to gut whatever they were protecting. Even if they use Move Move Move to consolidate, you're getting at least one free turn and you're committing enough overkill to make that one turn count. You'll take losses, but unless RNG really screws you there should be enough to sweep the backfield once you have effected a breach.
If they clump up for ranked fire, then you have free reign to drop on their support instead. This is the less likely scenario, but it's also why you realistically don't have to worry about taking 400 shots from two squads unless you bring it on yourself. Either they're too spread out to concentrate their fire like that, or they don't cover enough board to force you to engage. If there is nothing else to engage for some reason (all-conscript army), you can still hit them on a flank so that you only have to engage one or two squads at a time. Because of their large board footprint, short range relative to their footprint, and low mobility, conscripts are extremely vulnerable to defeat-in-detail.
Conscripts need to be 1 per 2 infantry squads. If they couldn't recie orders they'd be useless or need to go down to 2pts/model to justify taking them. Ive used conscripts since 3rd ed and in the time between 5th and 8th theyve barely changed (always put a priest/commissar in there with them) Making them a tax free selection alllowing you to spam them is what has made them suddenly good. Well that and also the general issue with anti-horde being too weak but thats a game issue and not exclusive to conscripts. Making infantry squads a requirement to field conscripts is the sensible option.
Timeshadow wrote: Like I said earlier the easiest solution I see is a 50% order fail on conscripts. (Conscripts are undisciplined)
When a commissar is used to prevent moral losses roll a 3+ save if he fails the conscripts rebel doing d3 mortal wounds to the commissar and eating the losses as per normal.
This allows you to still use them for bubble wrap but makes a 1/3 chance to kill the commissar and a 50% chance to ignore orders.
No.
Players outside of the Guard all wanted Guard to be a horde of bodies. They all kept talking about how they wanted Commissars to be a key tool for Guard players.
You reap what you sow.
Finally Gurlyman needs some slight tweeks (his auras should only effect infantry with Astaries KW.
Which Aura?
He has two of them. One only affects keyword "Ultramarines" units, the other affects keyword "Imperium" units.
Yes, that's what we all wanted, and there are a few things that were going on that stopped it from ever happening.
1. AP5 Ignores Cover was easy to acquire, and therefore cover wasn't even helping all too often.
2. Orders were actually hard to get off in certain circumstances.
3. The infantry actually weren't all that cheap compared to other options.
What happened was a bunch of things happened. Even regular AP5 does not do anything. Regular infantry got more durable, but it adds up with the super cheap buy in. Plus you got dedicated Anti-Infantry not actually doing a whole lot.
Bobug's suggestion of 1 conscript squad per 2 regular guard is a good idea that would mitigate them to a degree but I still think a chance to not get orders off and maby a chance to hurt or kill the commissar are good ideas.
I'm not saying do all this I'm saying these are suggestions that may solve the problem without gutting conscript usefulness.
As for Gurlyman All his auras should be limited to infantry only (he shouldn't be able to buff vehicles or artillery) and maby a slight price hike to 400pts.
Bobug wrote: Conscripts need to be 1 per 2 infantry squads. If they couldn't recie orders they'd be useless or need to go down to 2pts/model to justify taking them. Ive used conscripts since 3rd ed and in the time between 5th and 8th theyve barely changed (always put a priest/commissar in there with them) Making them a tax free selection alllowing you to spam them is what has made them suddenly good. Well that and also the general issue with anti-horde being too weak but thats a game issue and not exclusive to conscripts. Making infantry squads a requirement to field conscripts is the sensible option.
Lol what?
You think without orders conscripts could be 2 points per model? Is this the level of delusion were dealing with here?
They aren't necessary or distinct enough from normal squads to be taking up space, and guard infantry squads strain the low end of the points system enough themselves.
The math of the unit is just ridiculous, and the cascade of 100+ dice to 100+/3 dice to 100+/9(or12) dice just highlights the terribleness of the resolution system.
They aren't necessary or distinct enough from normal squads to be taking up space, and guard infantry squads strain the low end of the points system enough themselves.
The math of the unit is just ridiculous, and the cascade of 100+ dice to 100+/3 dice to 100+/9(or12) dice just highlights the terribleness of the resolution system.
I'd be fine with that and then allowing large units of regular guardsman.
Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.
I dont get it though whats the point of blobbing up.
besides stacking benefits across the entire table rather than needing to spider out.
As time continues and I accumulate more games under my belt I find myself falling into the conscripts need a nerf bat camp. The real problem is that most of the purposed changes either 1) do not fix the problem, or 2) fundamentally change the guard codex. I run a conscript/ scion army and have faced most of the uber competitive army builds. On the competitive side, conscripts nullify the alpha strike and act as aura whores. In friendly/fluffy games they are unstoppable walls of flashlight death. I understand the divide between the two camps of wanting to nuke conscripts and wanting them to stay the same. From the IG players perspective they need bodies on the field to protect their big guns and it seems unjustified to nerf their unit that went unchanged from 7th to 8th ed. It also doesn't help the fact that the regular infantry squads are lack luster in the new edition and they lost access to veterans. From non IG players perspective most armies don't have a effective way to kill 150 men or take out the buffing characters. The other problem is most of them didn't fight against conscripts in 7th edition. I was running IG conscripts with scions in 7th and conscripts did exactly what they are doing now. While they were not Riptide Wing or Yennari strong, I could win against the majority of space marine lists.
I don't know how to fix conscripts. The comments on this thread (and others) are lacking real perspective. 1) They are not looking at the conversation from the other persons perspective and 2) It fails to address the real problems in 40k 8th edition.
The real problems in 40k 8th ed. 1) Character rules and buffs: This applies to conscripts/ commissars, Rowboat Girlyman and anything, Magnus with 6 demon princes surrounded by brimstones/blue horrors.
2) First turn alpha strikes: It has been shown that if you have first turn your chances of winning increase dramatically. The all fliers or super heavy lists are the biggest culprits of this.
3) Win conditions: The majority of games do not force tactics into securing objectives over killing the enemy. This means that most games involve spamming powerful units over playing the mission.
4) List building: It became very easy to take whatever you want in 7th and 8th edition because of formations/detachments. This makes it easy to spam certain powerful units and makes balance between units/codex near impossible.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.
But then the same people would STILL be complaining about the same things for the same reason, and we'd also lose a fluffy unit that's existed for most of the lifespan of the game.
It's quickly becoming apparent that there's not going to be a reasonable outcome here. I suspect that even if that game I have is going goes as well as I think it will for SM and I show that the outcomes were of average probability, it's not going to be good enough for some people. Because the later part was already done half the thread ago with hypothetical units.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.
I dont get it though whats the point of blobbing up.
besides stacking benefits across the entire table rather than needing to spider out.
Orders are more efficient with larger squads, better hidden special/heavy weapons.
Then put them into the Militarum Auxilia--something I brought up ages ago in the fething Guard wishlist threads where people kept trying to shut me down for wanting the Guard to become closer to T'au in being an aura/support heavy army.
They aren't necessary or distinct enough from normal squads to be taking up space, and guard infantry squads strain the low end of the points system enough themselves.
The math of the unit is just ridiculous, and the cascade of 100+ dice to 100+/3 dice to 100+/9(or12) dice just highlights the terribleness of the resolution system.
I'd be fine with that and then allowing large units of regular guardsman.
I wouldn't, and since it's my army--my vote counts for more than yours.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.
But then the same people would STILL be complaining about the same things for the same reason, and we'd also lose a fluffy unit that's existed for most of the lifespan of the game.
It's quickly becoming apparent that there's not going to be a reasonable outcome here. I suspect that even if that game I have is going goes as well as I think it will for SM and I show that the outcomes were of average probability, it's not going to be good enough for some people. Because the later part was already done half the thread ago with hypothetical units.
Less reason to complain about a unit that is 40% less durable per point, less if you actually buy upgrades for it.
