But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
But Bikes aren't troops, so who cares? The 5 CP from the 3 batallions of Guard and 2 Commanders is what makes the army work, Running 3 squads of SM bikes and an HQ only gives you 1 CP.
I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.
Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.
This makes a lot of not great assumptions. If you're deepstriking 30 naked orks then that Crusader is getting double tap on you anyway. It didn't magically become awesome - that's just bad play.
Nevertheless it isn't coming anywhere near killing 30 orks on it's own.
So, a 300ish point model just killed 84 points of boyz...(and a painboy and KFF cuts that in half)
Twin assault cannon: 12 shots, 8 hits, 6 dead orks (yeah average says 9 hits would cause 6 orks but 5.something doesn't exist in real games, is either 5 or 6 dudes and it's more likely to be 6 than 5).
Bolters (I assumed a storm bolter in the lot): 28 shots, 19 hits, 9 or 10 wounds (again, 9.5 wounds make no sense), 8 or 9 casualties.
Grand total of 14-15 dead orks.
Unless the crusader was in rapid fire range its damage output was way lower with the older rules. Note that those orks may want to assault something else, not necessarily the crusader so it might be out of rapid fire range. It actually happened several times with my SW that deep striking units were attacking units in my deploying zone but the crusader was too far away to be in rapid fire range.
Painboy and KFFs aren't that relevant as footslogging orks aren't that scary, deep striking ones are. And those ones don't have any defensive buffs. On the other hand offensive buffs on the crusader can be easily factored in since SM usually have characters that give re-rolls anyway. Against footslogging dudes now it can kill way more orks at distance.
The crusader just costs 266 points, and it's also useful to reduce the drops with its transport capacity of 16 models. It will get his points back in a couple of turns of shooting, three at most. A full mob of 30 orks costs between 210 to 225 points, according to what weapon the nob has. We're talking about matches against hordes armies, not against imperium or aeldari soups where there's only anti tank usually and enough firepower to 1-shot a knight.
I sure hope you never have to play against a Leman Russ Punisher.
Yeah lol. This was my thought too. "As opposed to the IG version, which costs what now, 162, helps generate command points in the HQ slot, and removes 17 in a single round of shooting totally ignoring the extra heavy bolters."
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But Bikes aren't troops, so who cares? The 5 CP from the 3 batallions of Guard and 2 Commanders is what makes the army work, Running 3 squads of SM bikes and an HQ only gives you 1 CP.
Bikes are part of the picture.
If we both have a Castellan and the rest of my list is more effective than the rest of yours I have an edge. How you construct the the whole list is up to you.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But Bikes aren't troops, so who cares? The 5 CP from the 3 batallions of Guard and 2 Commanders is what makes the army work, Running 3 squads of SM bikes and an HQ only gives you 1 CP.
It isn't like there's a whole lot of Strategems you want to use in the Vanilla codex anyway.
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Don't run cultists? This isn't a hard change. You're talking about a very specific kind of list. 75 points gets you 15 cultists which are way less durable (more so with more bolters flying around) and do less damage. Zone spreading is less of an issue with no deepstrike until turn 2. Cultists become good when you have 40 of them and a ton of support. An AC at 10 points is extremely efficient.
Why not a dreadnought? Why don't people just take mortars instead of adding the loyal 32 as well? Because I do want to fill troops. And why not both? A dread gets me 3.5 S4 and 2 S7 for 90. A CSM squad gets me obsec, 2+, 8 S4 and 2 S7 for 75. There are pros and cons to both.
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
Well, regular terminators are no longer slow and purposeful like Scarabs. They just need to change the dust rule to read "this unit counts as never having moved for purposes of shooting" instead of adding a layer to a high level rule. It's easily FAQ'd and I've already pinged them on it as should others if they think it's a sensible change.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But Bikes aren't troops, so who cares? The 5 CP from the 3 batallions of Guard and 2 Commanders is what makes the army work, Running 3 squads of SM bikes and an HQ only gives you 1 CP.
It isn't like there's a whole lot of Strategems you want to use in the Vanilla codex anyway.
This is only partially correct. While a particular army may not have a ton of specific Strats that are usefull to them, every single possible army benefits for Command Re-rolls.
1 guaranteed re-roll per phase can mean the difference between rolling poorly and winning. So in that regard, an army with significantly more CPs will almost always have more advantages.
This is the main reason I really, really wish GW would reverse the Eratta that made Battalions (and Brigades) more CPs. Just go back to 3CPs/9CPs respectively and give Battle Forged 5CPs. But that's for another thread (or several, apparently)
Yeah but if you use normal marines with them, they are pretty much useless I find unless you are buffing them or kitting them out with stormshields etc. and you also find that only your Primaris last. Terminators are good options from normal marines I find but I'm focusing my army to be Primaris, but your right 40k armies just need tweaks until we see some sort of balance.
I'm pretty sure focusing your army to be Primaris is exactly what GW wants you to do.
Doesn't matter, GW will be getting rid of old marines, I've been playing since 2nd its not the first time I've had to update an army. People that can't see the writing on the wall are just wasting their money.
Well, looks like the usual suspects are out and claiming the rule's bad 'cause it can't let naked tacticals slaughter IG. Maybe play a few games with the new rules rather than getting grumpy that your particular fix wasn't done.
Tournament players need to occasionally remember that 90% of the 40K gamers don't run LVO lists each and every time they play 40K. Those people tend to use more than three entries from their codices, thus terminator, bike, and tactical buffs are actually worthwhile.
Doesn't matter, GW will be getting rid of old marines, I've been playing since 2nd its not the first time I've had to update an army. People that can't see the writing on the wall are just wasting their money.
Doesn't matter, GW will be getting rid of old marines, I've been playing since 2nd its not the first time I've had to update an army. People that can't see the writing on the wall are just wasting their money.
Doesn't matter, GW will be getting rid of old marines, I've been playing since 2nd its not the first time I've had to update an army. People that can't see the writing on the wall are just wasting their money.
Yeah, no argument here.
I wish they’d do it faster.
I wish they'd do it in a way that promotes ant kind if interesting modeling or fluff or game play. If wishes were fishes I guess.
They've got a good concept for how one good space marine would look, I guess? Too bad three of the four armor designs are centurion - tier and the one good design has no options.
Luke_Prowler wrote: Well, looks like the usual suspects are out and claiming the rule's bad 'cause it can't let naked tacticals slaughter IG. Maybe play a few games with the new rules rather than getting grumpy that your particular fix wasn't done.
I mean...it won't slaughter Guard. But that doesn't make it a bad rule, just a step in the right direction. I guess some people don't want steps, but rather leaps. I, for one, am glad GW is taking the cautious approach rather than massively buffing things that could cause other issues
Luke_Prowler wrote: Well, looks like the usual suspects are out and claiming the rule's bad 'cause it can't let naked tacticals slaughter IG. Maybe play a few games with the new rules rather than getting grumpy that your particular fix wasn't done.
I mean...it won't slaughter Guard. But that doesn't make it a bad rule, just a step in the right direction. I guess some people don't want steps, but rather leaps.
I, for one, am glad GW is taking the cautious approach rather than massively buffing things that could cause other issues
-
Honestly I think this was more a leap than anything due to the horrendous scaling issue. I mean, I'll TAKE it for now, but a proc rule would've been so much easier to implement and goes further to universally fix Bolt weapons.
After all, this does nothing for Bolt Pistols, Carbines, Heavy Bolters, etc.
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
Yeah they pay a slight increase to have double the shots that also wound a lot better. Plus they get a 3++ for 2 points. Lets get real. DW are not marines - they are kind of OP. The only reason they aren't out of hand right now is because the Castellan exists and they can't really hurt it.
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
Yeah they pay a slight increase to have double the shots that also wound a lot better. Plus they get a 3++ for 2 points. Lets get real. DW are not marines - they are kind of OP. The only reason they aren't out of hand right now is because the Castellan exists and they can't really hurt it.
It isn't just a slight point increase. That's 4 points and turning a originally 15 point model into a 18 point model.
I agree the 2 point Storm Shields are stupid, but let's be real. Deathwatch being the best Marines doesn't make them OP in the slightest. There's simply an issue with other Marine armies.
Xenomancers wrote: look at how bad Sm units are compared to DW. DW aren't OP? What does that make marines? Overcosted chaff? Okay - got it.
Uh yeah. If GW is consistent at one thing, it is how they present Marines and how to fix them. Battle Demi Company proved they really don't have a clue what to do at points.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But Bikes aren't troops, so who cares? The 5 CP from the 3 batallions of Guard and 2 Commanders is what makes the army work, Running 3 squads of SM bikes and an HQ only gives you 1 CP.
Bikes are part of the picture.
If we both have a Castellan and the rest of my list is more effective than the rest of yours I have an edge. How you construct the the whole list is up to you.
the thing is, if your army is made out of culstists, DPs and some 1ksons casters, you can fit in a knight in to it. But there are armies which just won't fit, IG a castellan and their own stuff in to a list. Or they end up like BAs do, that their BA flavour comes from a bunch of HQs and 15 scouts.
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
Yeah they pay a slight increase to have double the shots that also wound a lot better. Plus they get a 3++ for 2 points. Lets get real. DW are not marines - they are kind of OP. The only reason they aren't out of hand right now is because the Castellan exists and they can't really hurt it.
I don't think they are OP, but a SB vet with a SS costs like a GK strike. And the strike trades the super ammo and ++3 for a baby smite and melee weapons, which he will never use effectivly. If anything marines to be valid should be more like DW vets, and at least as far as super casuals goes, the DW rules seem to make marines fine. They even make primaris of the non hellblaster type worth being taken.
Elbows wrote:Tournament players need to occasionally remember that 90% of the 40K gamers don't run LVO lists each and every time they play 40K. Those people tend to use more than three entries from their codices, thus terminator, bike, and tactical buffs are actually worthwhile.
I totally agree, but now they need to fix the defense side. Last week @ flgs we were discussing maybe a 3++ armour save or reducing incoming AP by 1.
I can see this making the Bolger that were already good better but it doesn't really help,out the basic 0 point bolter that wasn't killing the enemy before.
Oggthrok wrote: I’m a little late to this party, but am I correct that the change this beta rule makes could be summed up this way:
“If you stand still, you can fire twice out to the maximum range of the bolter”
And everything else works just the same as it has since the start of the edition?
You get to fire a rapid fire bolt weapon twice if any of these apply...
1. your target is within half the weapon's range (as usual),
2. you did not move in your last movement phase
3. you are a Biker, Centurion, Terminator, or Vehicle
Two thirds of the rule is detailing what a rapid fire bolt weapon is.
Oggthrok wrote: I’m a little late to this party, but am I correct that the change this beta rule makes could be summed up this way:
“If you stand still, you can fire twice out to the maximum range of the bolter”
And everything else works just the same as it has since the start of the edition?
You get to fire a rapid fire bolt weapon twice if... ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ARE TRUE
1. your target is within half the weapon's range (as usual),
2. you did not move in your last movement phase
3. you are a Biker, Centurion, Terminator, or Vehicle
Two thirds of the rule is detailing what a rapid fire bolt weapon is.
DarknessEternal wrote: Completely irrelevant. Bolter Marines aren't being used because bolters aren't good enough.
They aren't being used because Imperial Knights, Custode Jetbikes, and Blood Angel Captains are a thing.
No. The choice is between marines and guarddmen (or cultists). All those units require CP to function. IG fits that role well, because they are cheap and effective. If marines can be made to be more effective then you've cut away some of that gap.
3 bikes can carry a storm bolter and 3 twin boltguns for 65. With a 14" move and no need to be within 12" they can be places where it suits their durability and still shoot well. It's 55 points for a squad of IS with commander.
Remember when I mentioned Bolter Marines, and you said they're good, but only if they're bikes? What a strange way to reply.
Marines need better stratagems. Period. That aren't just locked to the terrible primaris units.
Along with bolter weapons being increased in potential, this is a good rule for some units. Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Bikes, land raider crusaders all excel in potential firepower in terms of anti-infantry. which is great. But marines weren't struggling against horde armies, they never were. They struggled against titan units, and super heavies. They also suffered in close combat and morale. This is a band aid at best.
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!
Isn't that what most GW rules are though? Most of them seem poorly thought out, just look at the current Stratagem abuse with warlord traits with Knight Titans.
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!
"... and that’s before you consider the benefits to more exotic armaments like Inferno combi-bolters…"
I'm quite sure that they knew exactly what they were doing with thousand sons, and they didn't give full rapid fire to rubrics for a reason.
I mean, this is already a huge buff for thousand sons, i think that we don't need yet another one without seeing how good rubrics are now.
Elbows wrote: Tournament players need to occasionally remember that 90% of the 40K gamers don't run LVO lists each and every time they play 40K. Those people tend to use more than three entries from their codices, thus terminator, bike, and tactical buffs are actually worthwhile.
100% agree.
I was talking about the crusader getting some benefit from the new bolter rule and someone mentioned how the punisher is more effective in comparison. Yes it is, but it's a unit from a different book, from the most broken and undercosted army of this entire edition. I don't play AM, so that punisher being a superstar against hordes is irrelevant to me. Now one of the units I can actually field is clearly improved and may worth its points. Period. It doesn't matter if soups from WAAC players can have more effective tools for that job.
There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
They have faith Religion and guns typically go together.
"God and guns
Keep us strong
That's what this country
Was founded on
Well we might as well give up and run
If we let them take our God and guns"
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
The only reason TS will run cultist is to get more psychers and still keep TS detachment benefits.
TS have access to horrors who are more point efficient and provide more bodies with higher leadership.
Rubric can be really resilient because of "All is dust" and other buffs they can get. Their real problem is they don`t do nearly enough damage to be treat and are slow. If they can make 2 hits instead of one with -2 AP and are put in good position they can be really annoying.
In cover + all is dust they are +1 on save, of course you always fail on 1, but -1 means nothing to them and they have invul save.
I don`t think that will put them in tournament lists, but will sure benefit most of the players who like their cool models.
I think a big part of the problem is that every weapon in 40k is shoehorned into one of 4 weapon types. It seems like it would be much more logical to have 'Rapid Fire', 'Assault' etc. be special rules for weapons, rather than weapon categories.
That way, you can have weapons that don't fit into those 4 niches simply by giving them their own rules.
In this case, bolt weapons would replace 'Rapid Fire' with 'Bolter Drill'. Instead, we have this very awkward and messy switch.
It might also help if weapons had keywords.
+1 for this. It would require a significant change to the core rules though, which probably means an edition change, no?
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
The only reason TS will run cultist is to get more psychers and still keep TS detachment benefits.
TS have access to horrors who are more point efficient and provide more bodies with higher leadership.
Rubric can be really resilient because of "All is dust" and other buffs they can get. Their real problem is they don`t do nearly enough damage to be treat and are slow. If they can make 2 hits instead of one with -2 AP and are put in good position they can be really annoying.
In cover + all is dust they are +1 on save, of course you always fail on 1, but -1 means nothing to them and they have invul save.
I don`t think that will put them in tournament lists, but will sure benefit most of the players who like their cool models.
I pretty much agree with this assessment, I'd still be very shocked to see a list with Rubricae objective holders win a tournament, but since they're a legitimate offensive threat from your deployment zone now you're not totally shooting yourself in the foot for taking them. If you really hate tzaangors/cultists/horrors then there's an actual argument for taking Rubrics now.
But the list would be weaker and less optimaized. The few bolter shots one gains, do not balance out the droping of a 1-2 DPs or losing all the chaff. Now if 1ksons were 10pts each and you could drop 60-70 of them on the table and a castellan or some DPs with sorc support, now then they would be a legitimate threat. Right now they are just there to punish people playing elite armies. And am not sure those people need more punishment.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
I can see why, but I think the more appropriate solution if they still have issues is points, this is really a bandaid to marines because GW is overcosting a 3+ soo much.
Basic bolter wielding power armour of all flavours need spacial rules to be casual play worthy, that's a sign of basic miscosting.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
I can see why, but I think the more appropriate solution if they still have issues is points, this is really a bandaid to marines because GW is overcosting a 3+ soo much.
Basic bolter wielding power armour of all flavours need spacial rules to be casual play worthy, that's a sign of basic miscosting.
I play marines, guard and sisters primarily, and all of them can be played in any casual setting without any issues. I can even play all of them to a somewhat competitive level, but at least marines aren't top of the line there, sure. But for casual play they're absolutely fine.
Yeah, rubricae at 10ppm would be crazy but they probably should drop a point or 2. If they do that, plus are ruled as terminators for the sake of these new bolter rules then we might actually see them a bit more. Seeing how cool those models are, how would that be anyting other than a win?
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
I can see why, but I think the more appropriate solution if they still have issues is points, this is really a bandaid to marines because GW is overcosting a 3+ soo much.
Basic bolter wielding power armour of all flavours need spacial rules to be casual play worthy, that's a sign of basic miscosting.
I play marines, guard and sisters primarily, and all of them can be played in any casual setting without any issues. I can even play all of them to a somewhat competitive level, but at least marines aren't top of the line there, sure. But for casual play they're absolutely fine.
I didn't see you couldn't play marines casually, the point was basic bolter power armour ie tacs suck, even in casual play.
They now suck a bit less.
They might actually contribute before they die as those ablative wounds.
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, rubricae at 10ppm would be crazy but they probably should drop a point or 2. If they do that, plus are ruled as terminators for the sake of these new bolter rules then we might actually see them a bit more. Seeing how cool those models are, how would that be anyting other than a win?
Karol wrote: But the list would be weaker and less optimaized. The few bolter shots one gains, do not balance out the droping of a 1-2 DPs or losing all the chaff. Now if 1ksons were 10pts each and you could drop 60-70 of them on the table and a castellan or some DPs with sorc support, now then they would be a legitimate threat. Right now they are just there to punish people playing elite armies. And am not sure those people need more punishment.
Lol if they made rubric 10 pts i will never play a game vs TS player.
Guard and cultist are the real offenders in the game, since they provide to much options for their coast and even can do dmg.
If they lower the range of lastcannon to 12, then suddenly marines will look amassing.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
I can see why, but I think the more appropriate solution if they still have issues is points, this is really a bandaid to marines because GW is overcosting a 3+ soo much.
Basic bolter wielding power armour of all flavours need spacial rules to be casual play worthy, that's a sign of basic miscosting.
I play marines, guard and sisters primarily, and all of them can be played in any casual setting without any issues. I can even play all of them to a somewhat competitive level, but at least marines aren't top of the line there, sure. But for casual play they're absolutely fine.
I didn't see you couldn't play marines casually, the point was basic bolter power armour ie tacs suck, even in casual play.
They now suck a bit less.
They might actually contribute before they die as those ablative wounds.
Of course they suck. Currently they are pointed so that every antihorde weapon in game kills more marines than guardsmen (unless they have Raven Guard/Alpha Legion trait, but even then flamer is more efficient against MEQs than GEQs), while the high points per wound guarantees heavier AT weaponry is far more efficient against MEQs than GEQs because of the lower amount of wounds in the total pool. Morale is mostly non-existent because of all the mitigative effects available to various factions and even the cheap troops have quite low minimum unit size of 10. Many things would work much better if everything was scaled so that minimum unit cost was around 100 for basic troops.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
Who wear power armor, carry and use heavy weapons just the same way as space marines, have actually better bolters, and treat their weapon as an instrument of divine retribution, and it's training as a sacred task?
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!
I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.
In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, rubricae at 10ppm would be crazy but they probably should drop a point or 2. If they do that, plus are ruled as terminators for the sake of these new bolter rules then we might actually see them a bit more. Seeing how cool those models are, how would that be anyting other than a win?
Rubricae eats Plague Marine's lunch.
Rubricae are great when not faced with solid strength 2/d3 weaponry. Stuff like plasma melts them (though no easier than terminators, which is more a complaint of how undercosted plasma is). They are really good defensively overall but their lack of speed and damage potential is tough. Getting within 12" with a 5" move is not fun. The fact that they can only get the soulreaper in a squad of 10 is absurd. They are not bad troops but they're costly for what amounts to backfield objective holders in most games. At least SOT are stronger with this rule, the fact that those guys only have the same 5+ invuln as rubricae is mindboggling.
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!
I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.
In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.
I'm talking about the psychic focus rule, which was 8th. Originally Rubricae were pretty seriously screwed by it because the idea that they're putting out a consistent mortal wound per unit is factored into their points cost, so when the people started emailing GW about the problem they fixed it by giving Thousand Sons (and Grey Knights, who were in a similar situation) a specific exception to the rule.
This isn't nearly as egregious of an issue, but I do think it's worth pointing out whether GW decides to modify All Is Dust to work with the new rule or not.
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, rubricae at 10ppm would be crazy but they probably should drop a point or 2. If they do that, plus are ruled as terminators for the sake of these new bolter rules then we might actually see them a bit more. Seeing how cool those models are, how would that be anyting other than a win?
Rubricae eats Plague Marine's lunch.
Rubricae are great when not faced with solid strength 2/d3 weaponry. Stuff like plasma melts them (though no easier than terminators, which is more a complaint of how undercosted plasma is). They are really good defensively overall but their lack of speed and damage potential is tough. Getting within 12" with a 5" move is not fun. The fact that they can only get the soulreaper in a squad of 10 is absurd. They are not bad troops but they're costly for what amounts to backfield objective holders in most games. At least SOT are stronger with this rule, the fact that those guys only have the same 5+ invuln as rubricae is mindboggling.
I'm sure you are correct, but damage 2/d3 weaponry is also ruinous on Plague Marines, who similarly have a 5" move. On top of that Thousand Sons with inferno bolters are the biggest beneficiaries of this beta rule on the Chaos side, while the Death Guard legion trait of 18" bolter rapid fire (albeit with movement) is now much less special.
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!
I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.
In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.
I'm talking about the psychic focus rule, which was 8th. Originally Rubricae were pretty seriously screwed by it because the idea that they're putting out a consistent mortal wound per unit is factored into their points cost, so when the people started emailing GW about the problem they fixed it by giving Thousand Sons (and Grey Knights, who were in a similar situation) a specific exception to the rule.
This isn't nearly as egregious of an issue, but I do think it's worth pointing out whether GW decides to modify All Is Dust to work with the new rule or not.
Who is actually using the aspirings to cast spells? Every perils is 2d3 rubrics dead instantly. Noone is casting with their aspirings. They are basically sargeants with force staffs. Their only actual use is to help complete the psyker trio required for the cabalistic focus stratagem.
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!
I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.
In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.
I'm talking about the psychic focus rule, which was 8th. Originally Rubricae were pretty seriously screwed by it because the idea that they're putting out a consistent mortal wound per unit is factored into their points cost, so when the people started emailing GW about the problem they fixed it by giving Thousand Sons (and Grey Knights, who were in a similar situation) a specific exception to the rule.
This isn't nearly as egregious of an issue, but I do think it's worth pointing out whether GW decides to modify All Is Dust to work with the new rule or not.
Who is actually using the aspirings to cast spells? Every perils is 2d3 rubrics dead instantly. Noone is casting with their aspirings. They are basically sargeants with force staffs. Their only actual use is to help complete the psyker trio required for the cabalistic focus stratagem.
I`m sure most of the people are using their aspirings to cast spells.
They're a lot better off, no doubt. But no way in hell are they better than deathwatch veterans with stormbolters and stormshields. Slap in a singular terminator for access to a 2+ save and that unit is incredibly tough and has damage potential out the wazoo
5 rubrics in cover holding an objective are quite the immovable object, that is true. And now they can actually harass enemies enough to draw attention.
Especially in TS detachments they are also troops, no need to take them from your elite slots.
Point for point though, they are worse than scarab occults. A SOT is practically two rubrics glued to each other for the same points in literally all aspects. Only the SOT also gets a power weapon, free deepstrike, combi bolter on the aspiring instead of pistol, +1 armor save and the option for hellyfire missiles for 15 pts only.
The only thing rubrics have going for them is that All is dust on them actually makes sense, and that they can have cheaper MSU.
topaxygouroun i wrote: 5 rubrics in cover holding an objective are quite the immovable object, that is true. And now they can actually harass enemies enough to draw attention.
Especially in TS detachments they are also troops, no need to take them from your elite slots.
Point for point though, they are worse than scarab occults. A SOT is practically two rubrics glued to each other for the same points in literally all aspects. Only the SOT also gets a power weapon, free deepstrike, combi bolter on the aspiring instead of pistol, +1 armor save and the option for hellyfire missiles for 15 pts only.
The only thing rubrics have going for them is that All is dust on them actually makes sense, and that they can have cheaper MSU.
There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.
I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?
DarknessEternal wrote: Completely irrelevant. Bolter Marines aren't being used because bolters aren't good enough.
They aren't being used because Imperial Knights, Custode Jetbikes, and Blood Angel Captains are a thing.
No. The choice is between marines and guarddmen (or cultists). All those units require CP to function. IG fits that role well, because they are cheap and effective. If marines can be made to be more effective then you've cut away some of that gap.
3 bikes can carry a storm bolter and 3 twin boltguns for 65. With a 14" move and no need to be within 12" they can be places where it suits their durability and still shoot well. It's 55 points for a squad of IS with commander.
Remember when I mentioned Bolter Marines, and you said they're good, but only if they're bikes? What a strange way to reply.
lol, no.
I'm highlighting different aspects of the change. You can see my other posts about tacs and csm.
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Who is actually using the aspirings to cast spells? Every perils is 2d3 rubrics dead instantly. Noone is casting with their aspirings. They are basically sargeants with force staffs. Their only actual use is to help complete the psyker trio required for the cabalistic focus stratagem.
Me. I rarely peril and I have cp for when I do. Maybe 1 out of 20 games I have a catastrophe.
You're crazy not to leverage them to free up hq casting.
Ghorgul wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.
I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?
That happens everywhere tho. It's the reason brimstone horrors are better than the blues, that guardsmen are better than tacs, cultists better than CSM etc. There are a lot of stuff fundamentally wrong in the game, true. But since it is what it is, it makes sense to compare two otherwise identical units in their cost as well.
Ghorgul wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.
I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?
This was in my mind, what made 5th eddition so great (along with not using progressive scoring). It made troops so important because if you didn't have some left by the end, you weren't going to win, regardless of how much you had invested into killing your opponent).
Of course such a rule might not work any more in an edition where hordes of troops are already very effective, and progressive scoring is so popular.
Ghorgul wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.
I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?
That happens everywhere tho. It's the reason brimstone horrors are better than the blues, that guardsmen are better than tacs, cultists better than CSM etc. There are a lot of stuff fundamentally wrong in the game, true. But since it is what it is, it makes sense to compare two otherwise identical units in their cost as well.
Agreed, it is what it is. But I'm still gonna call the Emperor naked if he has no clothes.
Karol wrote: But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.
Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.
It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!
I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.
In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.
I'm talking about the psychic focus rule, which was 8th. Originally Rubricae were pretty seriously screwed by it because the idea that they're putting out a consistent mortal wound per unit is factored into their points cost, so when the people started emailing GW about the problem they fixed it by giving Thousand Sons (and Grey Knights, who were in a similar situation) a specific exception to the rule.
This isn't nearly as egregious of an issue, but I do think it's worth pointing out whether GW decides to modify All Is Dust to work with the new rule or not.
Who is actually using the aspirings to cast spells? Every perils is 2d3 rubrics dead instantly. Noone is casting with their aspirings. They are basically sargeants with force staffs. Their only actual use is to help complete the psyker trio required for the cabalistic focus stratagem.
Haha are you kidding? I cast every turn with every aspiring sorc, because if you have two brain cells to rub together the odds of perils with them is 0.9% (2*36/6 because you hold a one-die reroll from either Gaze of Fate or Tactical Reroll). That's the same odds as rapid firing 3 plasma gunners in a reroll 1s aura and losing all 3 to gets hot. When was the last time you saw someone braindead enough to give up shooting a plasma gun on overcharge if they have reroll 1s?
Not using your aspiring sorcerors as casters when the Change discipline exists is ridiculous.
Well, tying CP generation to the ability to cheaply fill the troop slots was the biggest mistakes they did with this edition, and most of the game's problems stem from it.
Crimson wrote: Well, tying CP generation to the ability to cheaply fill the troop slots was the biggest mistakes they did with this edition, and most of the game's problems stem from it.
Can't disagree with that, it also encourages min-maxing bonuses as your already taking the time to optimize detachments for CP.
Not using your aspiring sorcerors as casters when the Change discipline exists is ridiculous.
But saying that Gaze of Fate or a CP are always available is just as ridiculous. We all know the odds are low, nevertheless gak happens very often when you play this army, and losing half a squad of Rubrics or Ahriman / Daemon Prince because of a Peril is something that happens every other game.
Anyway, this rule is a step in the right direction even though I also hope that the final version will allow Rubrics and Plague Marines to move and shoot as if stationnary. I dream of playing an army of Rubric Marines moving forward slowly while shooting. Right now it's just a dream.
Asherian Command wrote: Isn't that what most GW rules are though? Most of them seem poorly thought out, just look at the current Stratagem abuse with warlord traits with Knight Titans.
Rubric marines et al are outside the scope of the beta rule. It would be silly to write up all the exceptions into this rule. It would also be silly to solidify a rule when it isn't necessarily in it's final form.
Asherian Command wrote: Marines need better stratagems. Period. That aren't just locked to the terrible primaris units.
Along with bolter weapons being increased in potential, this is a good rule for some units. Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Bikes, land raider crusaders all excel in potential firepower in terms of anti-infantry. which is great. But marines weren't struggling against horde armies, they never were. They struggled against titan units, and super heavies. They also suffered in close combat and morale. This is a band aid at best.
Exactly, when I look in my Custodes and Eldar codex, their stratagems are crazy in comparison. I understand Custodes need great strats as they have so few CP 's but then again so do SM's and eldar sure as hell don't.
Ghorgul wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.
I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?
That happens everywhere tho. It's the reason brimstone horrors are better than the blues, that guardsmen are better than tacs, cultists better than CSM etc. There are a lot of stuff fundamentally wrong in the game, true. But since it is what it is, it makes sense to compare two otherwise identical units in their cost as well.
None of those statements are true. (Except for the brimstone>blues thing, that's pretty dumb) They are only true if you decide to play a hoard army.
Cheaper MSU isn't even how the hoard armies are played, cultists are taken in large squads not min squads, etc etc etc.
You can mitigate the current guard meta by driving around in T7 transports, but people like to believe the internet when it says "rhinos and chimeras are garbage". They aren't garbage if you are facing a gunline full of mortars, lasguns, and autoguns. You'd be amazed how much you can screw with these hoard armies just by going a bit more armored.
But that's ok, decry my use of transports as misguided, choose to believe this internet rage about MSU.
While I'm on this rant, I also cannot believe how many people complain about hoards, but turn around and take plasma in every squad lol.
Ghorgul wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.
I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?
That happens everywhere tho. It's the reason brimstone horrors are better than the blues, that guardsmen are better than tacs, cultists better than CSM etc. There are a lot of stuff fundamentally wrong in the game, true. But since it is what it is, it makes sense to compare two otherwise identical units in their cost as well.
None of those statements are true. (Except for the brimstone>blues thing, that's pretty dumb) They are only true if you decide to play a hoard army.
Cheaper MSU isn't even how the hoard armies are played, cultists are taken in large squads not min squads, etc etc etc.
You can mitigate the current guard meta by driving around in T7 transports, but people like to believe the internet when it says "rhinos and chimeras are garbage". They aren't garbage if you are facing a gunline full of mortars, lasguns, and autoguns. You'd be amazed how much you can screw with these hoard armies just by going a bit more armored.
But that's ok, decry my use of transports as misguided, choose to believe this internet rage about MSU.
While I'm on this rant, I also cannot believe how many people complain about hoards, but turn around and take plasma in every squad lol.
Agree - I think people are mixing up taking something like the loyal 32 and taking IG to really fill out a list. The loyal 32 does jack all by itself other than grant CP, which is the cheap MSU shtick. IG with mortars, catachans, priests, etc are NOT cheap MSU.
If you're using cultists to fill in CP, it's 50 for 10 or 65 for 5 CSM. You are paying 45 points (over 3 units) more for lots more durability (and now more damage, too). 10 cultists die to a stiff breeze. They're all but worthless unless they're holding an objective out of LOS. CSM can hunker down even more easily and are capable of useful upgrades as well.
But NONE of that is the same as saying you want to take 40 cultists and make use of the economies of scale that 40 models can achieve.
Not using your aspiring sorcerors as casters when the Change discipline exists is ridiculous.
But saying that Gaze of Fate or a CP are always available is just as ridiculous. We all know the odds are low, nevertheless gak happens very often when you play this army, and losing half a squad of Rubrics or Ahriman / Daemon Prince because of a Peril is something that happens every other game.
Anyway, this rule is a step in the right direction even though I also hope that the final version will allow Rubrics and Plague Marines to move and shoot as if stationnary. I dream of playing an army of Rubric Marines moving forward slowly while shooting. Right now it's just a dream.
Yep, just about the odds of me having an imperial guard plasma gun and not having a reroll 1s to hit available. That's about as frequently as I don't cast my aspiring sorcs.
1 scion with plasma gun: 20pts. Odds of losing him to gets hot with reroll 1s and rapid fire: 2/36. Cost in Gets Hot'd scions when firing a plasma gun with reroll 1s: 1.11 points.
3 Rubrics+1 Sorc: 78pts. Odds of losing those to Perils with a reroll available: 2/36/6. Cost in Rubrics when casting with a reroll available: .73 points. Without a reroll: 4.40 points.
With a one-die reroll available, the rubrics' babysmite is as efficient at damaging a vehicle versus the risk of points lost as the scion's plasma gun. And everyone knows that scion plasma guns are considered horrendously inefficient, and nobody ever rapid fires them with reroll 1s because it's just too risky, amirite?
Yep, just about the odds of me having an imperial guard plasma gun and not having a reroll 1s to hit available. That's about as frequently as I don't cast my aspiring sorcs.
1 scion with plasma gun: 20pts. Odds of losing him to gets hot with reroll 1s and rapid fire: 2/36. Cost in Gets Hot'd scions when firing a plasma gun with reroll 1s: 1.11 points.
3 Rubrics+1 Sorc: 78pts. Odds of losing those to Perils with a reroll available: 2/36/6. Cost in Rubrics when casting with a reroll available: .73 points. Without a reroll: 4.40 points.
With a one-die reroll available, the rubrics' babysmite is as efficient at damaging a vehicle versus the risk of points lost as the scion's plasma gun. And everyone knows that scion plasma guns are considered horrendously inefficient, and nobody ever rapid fires them with reroll 1s because it's just too risky, amirite?
Yea, my priority is always:
- Gaze with a +1
- Must succeed spells
- Cabal spell
- Other HQ spells
- Rubrics
If I still have my CP and Gaze by the time I get to Rubrics then i'm casting with all of them. If I don't then I'm prioritizing needs and skipping a squad here and there.
But then a potential perils on the Rubrics will suck up your CP/Gaze for the shooting or the fight phase, which you don't know if you will need or not because they follow.
Would you risk it for 1 mortal wound on a target you don't really control with your 5" move?
You're risking it for 1MW, because there is only a 1/36 chance of costing a CP, and a 1/216 chance of costing a CP and still Periling. Those are fairly good odds.
topaxygouroun i wrote: But then a potential perils on the Rubrics will suck up your CP/Gaze for the shooting or the fight phase, which you don't know if you will need or not because they follow.
Would you risk it for 1 mortal wound on a target you don't really control with your 5" move?
It's not just smite. They easily provide breathing room by casting temporal, weaver, or sometimes firestorm.
Ghorgul wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.
I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?
That happens everywhere tho. It's the reason brimstone horrors are better than the blues, that guardsmen are better than tacs, cultists better than CSM etc. There are a lot of stuff fundamentally wrong in the game, true. But since it is what it is, it makes sense to compare two otherwise identical units in their cost as well.
None of those statements are true. (Except for the brimstone>blues thing, that's pretty dumb) They are only true if you decide to play a hoard army.
Cheaper MSU isn't even how the hoard armies are played, cultists are taken in large squads not min squads, etc etc etc.
You can mitigate the current guard meta by driving around in T7 transports, but people like to believe the internet when it says "rhinos and chimeras are garbage". They aren't garbage if you are facing a gunline full of mortars, lasguns, and autoguns. You'd be amazed how much you can screw with these hoard armies just by going a bit more armored.
But that's ok, decry my use of transports as misguided, choose to believe this internet rage about MSU.
While I'm on this rant, I also cannot believe how many people complain about hoards, but turn around and take plasma in every squad lol.
Agree - I think people are mixing up taking something like the loyal 32 and taking IG to really fill out a list. The loyal 32 does jack all by itself other than grant CP, which is the cheap MSU shtick. IG with mortars, catachans, priests, etc are NOT cheap MSU.
If you're using cultists to fill in CP, it's 50 for 10 or 65 for 5 CSM. You are paying 45 points (over 3 units) more for lots more durability (and now more damage, too). 10 cultists die to a stiff breeze. They're all but worthless unless they're holding an objective out of LOS. CSM can hunker down even more easily and are capable of useful upgrades as well.
But NONE of that is the same as saying you want to take 40 cultists and make use of the economies of scale that 40 models can achieve.
Well you quite freely adopt the MSU approach there? And please, lets cut out the crap now shall we? You can go read top placing lists at Blood of Kittens, MSU cultists are far more prevalent than people could believe from both of your replies.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Eh, when it comes to shooting stuff, why not? Wouldn't bother me. It's not like Sister's aren't also wearing advanced power armor with a lifetime of intense training from childhood and artisanally crafted weapons. The genetic engineering stuff is far more relevant to close combat and logistical factors than shooting.
Crimson wrote: Well, tying CP generation to the ability to cheaply fill the troop slots was the biggest mistakes they did with this edition, and most of the game's problems stem from it.
It's definitely an issue. I think the bigger issue is the "take anything you want from any source, just buy anything and run it with whatever you want" army construction, with CP being tied to Troops as the primary "soft" method of attempting to control the worst excesses of that freedom turning out to be used as a super-charger for Stratagems that I suspect were not originally intended to be used quite as freely as they are.
Ghorgul wrote: Well you quite freely adopt the MSU approach there? And please, lets cut out the crap now shall we? You can go read top placing lists at Blood of Kittens, MSU cultists are far more prevalent than people could believe from both of your replies.
Oh god. Blood of Kittens. I just went to their December top listings and there's literally one Chaos list in there and no cultists. November? Still no cultists.
Yes, people use MSU cultists to get CP. They literally do jack else once someone shoots them. Are you taking Abaddon to prop up 10 T3 6+ wounds? No, you aren't. They're LD6 - They. Die. Fast.
They point being that CSM are capable of filling that bare bones role in a much better way* - especially now that this rule is out.
You want to get cultists off an objective in cover? 24 bolter shots and morale takes care of the rest. CSM? 90 bolter shots. Facing Drukhari? The splinter rifles that take care of cultists just fine struggle on CSM and they'd need dissies to dig them out.
*Unless you want zone spreading, which as stated many times, is less of an issue with no deepstrike turn 1.
That really depends if you accidentally overkill them or if you have an objective to kill units. LD6 is not hard to move. 6 dead means they have no leadership at all, so a 50/50 to lose the rest. 7 dead is 66%.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
Who wear power armor, carry and use heavy weapons just the same way as space marines, have actually better bolters, and treat their weapon as an instrument of divine retribution, and it's training as a sacred task?
I can wear my Dad's clothes, but it doesn't make me him.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
Who wear power armor, carry and use heavy weapons just the same way as space marines, have actually better bolters, and treat their weapon as an instrument of divine retribution, and it's training as a sacred task?
I can wear my Dad's clothes, but it doesn't make me him.
Sure, but you can learn to do his job like he can.
That really depends if you accidentally overkill them or if you have an objective to kill units. LD6 is not hard to move. 6 dead means they have no leadership at all, so a 50/50 to lose the rest. 7 dead is 66%.
They're LD7 with the leader still alive.
Also I still call the morale mechanic overall meaningless. It's constantly ignored, passed, or you killed so many dudes in the first place that a single 5 point model running away is no big deal.
If morale was a more reliable mechanic, the subfactions that make use of it would be seen more. Night Lords, The Silent Shroud, Dark Brotherhood (or whatever the Covens one was), and specific Warlord Traits regarding morale would be more neat rather than bad gimmicks.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
Who wear power armor, carry and use heavy weapons just the same way as space marines, have actually better bolters, and treat their weapon as an instrument of divine retribution, and it's training as a sacred task?
I can wear my Dad's clothes, but it doesn't make me him.
Sure, but you can learn to do his job like he can.
Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Crimson wrote: Well, tying CP generation to the ability to cheaply fill the troop slots was the biggest mistakes they did with this edition, and most of the game's problems stem from it.
Can't disagree with that, it also encourages min-maxing bonuses as your already taking the time to optimize detachments for CP.
CP is a terribly lazy and uninspired system. You can see how the lazy mechanic spews garbage into every corner of the game. Will CPEENESS last forever? Will it be abandoned as “bad” like templates,points, and terrain rules? Oh my! Lets wait and see!!!
Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.
What that actually means...who knows.
Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).
Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.
What that actually means...who knows.
Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).
Probably ten thousand years of refined tradition, superhuman sight, and super human reflexes.
Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.
What that actually means...who knows.
Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).
Probably ten thousand years of refined tradition, superhuman sight, and super human reflexes.
I mean, it's not like the SoB haven't existed in the 40k setting for many thousands of years themselves, a time period longer than current recorded human history, and it's not like Sisters dont have advanced power armor themselves with powerful optics and weapons bracing capability and the like. Space Marine supervision really only matters with the helmet off (otherwise they are both just looking through helmet sensors) and has never really factored into much else (e.g. SM's were as affected by nightfighting rules as anyone else), while reflexes matter a whole lot less for longer distance stationary shooting
From a gameplay perspective I don't really see sisters needing it, as your bog standard battle sister is pretty good for her price as is while the space marine baseline pays more for better stats you don't want to be using anyway. A sister with a storm bolter is cheaper than a tactical with a boltgun, and surprisingly easy to field.
And to be fair, even as a Sisters player I feel like space marines should be better with the bolter - they train with it as their standard core weapon and apply superhuman faculties to git good with it, and while the De'az may be a superior model (according to a 3rd edition book loaded with self agrandizement as per the norm) the sisters are still ultimately only human, and it's not unfair to suggest their fanatical enthusiasm for three types of weapons might leave them less proficient with one of them as opposed to literal superhumans devoting the lions share of their focus to the one.
topaxygouroun i wrote: But then a potential perils on the Rubrics will suck up your CP/Gaze for the shooting or the fight phase, which you don't know if you will need or not because they follow.
Would you risk it for 1 mortal wound on a target you don't really control with your 5" move?
It's not just smite. They easily provide breathing room by casting temporal, weaver, or sometimes firestorm.
you are giving temporal and weaver on your casters who don't get +1 to cast? You are braver than me. I never cast the big spells without +1 AND cabalistic focus.
Also I still call the morale mechanic overall meaningless. It's constantly ignored, passed, or you killed so many dudes in the first place that a single 5 point model running away is no big deal.
If morale was a more reliable mechanic, the subfactions that make use of it would be seen more. Night Lords, The Silent Shroud, Dark Brotherhood (or whatever the Covens one was), and specific Warlord Traits regarding morale would be more neat rather than bad gimmicks.
Only 6 with leader.
I think the perception of morale is poor because:
1) People take MSU marines, which means they never fail
2) There are tons of IS squads, which are LD 7 and a bit more durable
3) Cultists usually come immune in blocks of 40 (and orks in nearly immune blocks of 30)
4) An objective necessitates that you remove said unit *now* so there is no room for error on a morale roll
So #4 is the one that really only matters for this discussion, because the effort to remove Cultists as opposed to CSM is so wide that thinking 10 cultists are any sort of reliable objective holder is folly. If you were spending 150 points for objective holders why *wouldn't* you pay an extra 45 for units that did that reliably and were still threatening?
LD modifiers get skipped, because you need to be close for a lot of them and requires a level of commitment to the gimmick that most people are not comfortable with - especially in the knight meta. It's quite something to treason a warboss with the PK relic though.
Arachnofiend wrote: I cannot stress enough how busted Rubric Marines would be at 10ppm
Agreed. However, I also disagree that this was some sort of significant buff to Rubrics. If they were treated like Terminators, sure, I might actually be tempted to put them on the table. I've wanted to put them on the table for a long time, sadly, they never make the cut.
It was a buff to SoT, primarily, a unit that I still will not field, it was an extremely minor improvement to Rubrics. I would actually call it an insignificant buff, because I want my Rubrics to be supporting my characters, who will be moving forward to get range for psychic powers, assault, etc. I simply have no interest in fielding Rubrics to have them park on the back line and sit there all game.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.
Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.
Who wear power armor, carry and use heavy weapons just the same way as space marines, have actually better bolters, and treat their weapon as an instrument of divine retribution, and it's training as a sacred task?
Black Templars? I'm pretty sure it's Black Templars, right?
Captain Joystick wrote: From a gameplay perspective I don't really see sisters needing it, as your bog standard battle sister is pretty good for her price as is while the space marine baseline pays more for better stats you don't want to be using anyway. A sister with a storm bolter is cheaper than a tactical with a boltgun, and surprisingly easy to field.
And to be fair, even as a Sisters player I feel like space marines should be better with the bolter - they train with it as their standard core weapon and apply superhuman faculties to git good with it, and while the De'az may be a superior model (according to a 3rd edition book loaded with self agrandizement as per the norm) the sisters are still ultimately only human, and it's not unfair to suggest their fanatical enthusiasm for three types of weapons might leave them less proficient with one of them as opposed to literal superhumans devoting the lions share of their focus to the one.
Agreed - Sisters are at the apex of human training with a better gun but Marines are as well trained plus superhuman enhancements.
BOTH armies would benefit more from their vehicles working with Chapter tactics / Convictions like very other fething army.
Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.
What that actually means...who knows.
Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).
Probably ten thousand years of refined tradition, superhuman sight, and super human reflexes.
I mean, it's not like the SoB haven't existed in the 40k setting for many thousands of years themselves, a time period longer than current recorded human history, and it's not like Sisters dont have advanced power armor themselves with powerful optics and weapons bracing capability and the like. Space Marine supervision really only matters with the helmet off (otherwise they are both just looking through helmet sensors) and has never really factored into much else (e.g. SM's were as affected by nightfighting rules as anyone else), while reflexes matter a whole lot less for longer distance stationary shooting
My take anyway.
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
topaxygouroun i wrote: But then a potential perils on the Rubrics will suck up your CP/Gaze for the shooting or the fight phase, which you don't know if you will need or not because they follow.
Would you risk it for 1 mortal wound on a target you don't really control with your 5" move?
It's not just smite. They easily provide breathing room by casting temporal, weaver, or sometimes firestorm.
you are giving temporal and weaver on your casters who don't get +1 to cast? You are braver than me. I never cast the big spells without +1 AND cabalistic focus.
Temporal and weaver are usually not on the list of must cast unless something is in severe trouble. If it's part of a strategy a +1 caster will have them and rubrics will be backup to free up a bigger smite or give redundancy.
There are so many units that cast without a bonus its a given that most spells will be cast without it.
Asherian Command wrote: Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.
Arachnofiend wrote: I cannot stress enough how busted Rubric Marines would be at 10ppm
Agreed. However, I also disagree that this was some sort of significant buff to Rubrics. If they were treated like Terminators, sure, I might actually be tempted to put them on the table. I've wanted to put them on the table for a long time, sadly, they never make the cut.
It was a buff to SoT, primarily, a unit that I still will not field, it was an extremely minor improvement to Rubrics. I would actually call it an insignificant buff, because I want my Rubrics to be supporting my characters, who will be moving forward to get range for psychic powers, assault, etc. I simply have no interest in fielding Rubrics to have them park on the back line and sit there all game.
I will agree that it makes rubric slightly less appealing in comparison to scarabs, but slightly more appealing overall. I would love for them to bounce around with no penalties at all - that would get me to run 10 mans with no complaint.
Given the 6" on spell range the only reason I'm actually moving rubrics is to get to some objective or to be more effective with bolters. Since the latter is solved it's a net positive to me.
Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.
What that actually means...who knows.
Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).
Probably ten thousand years of refined tradition, superhuman sight, and super human reflexes.
I mean, it's not like the SoB haven't existed in the 40k setting for many thousands of years themselves, a time period longer than current recorded human history, and it's not like Sisters dont have advanced power armor themselves with powerful optics and weapons bracing capability and the like. Space Marine supervision really only matters with the helmet off (otherwise they are both just looking through helmet sensors) and has never really factored into much else (e.g. SM's were as affected by nightfighting rules as anyone else), while reflexes matter a whole lot less for longer distance stationary shooting
My take anyway.
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.
As I said before however they are not superhuman - just incredably well trained, devout warriors in superb armour and armed with equally powerful and effective weapons - they are blessed by Him and unlike the Asrates do not have a long record of failing in their Faith and duty - they are, like the Asrartes a figure of veneration and awe for the majoirty of the Imperium.
Daedalus81 wrote: I will agree that it makes rubric slightly less appealing in comparison to scarabs, but slightly more appealing overall. I would love for them to bounce around with no penalties at all - that would get me to run 10 mans with no complaint.
Given the 6" on spell range the only reason I'm actually moving rubrics is to get to some objective or to be more effective with bolters. Since the latter is solved it's a net positive to me.
I tend to run Ahriman on a Disc and a pair of DPs pretty regularly, so movement is important to me, especially being able to provide some level of bubble wrap as they're moving up. To be fair, even if Rubrics were treated as Terminators I might not use them, since the cultists I use rarely fire, they usually just advance to provide a charge buffer for my characters.
Asherian Command wrote: Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.
*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?
I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.
They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.
The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?
Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.
Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.
Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.
It would go like this:
PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes
I like this new rule and I really think of they dropped tactical marines to the price of scouts they would be a very competitive option for marines. This is basically a trade off better armor vs the ability to deepstrike (especially when you consider that . additionally it would cement Tacticals as the mission geared troop choice, especially when combined with armored support of rhinos/razorbacks, and leaving Intercessors to fulfill the role of tough objective holders and generalists.
Asherian Command wrote: Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.
*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?
I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.
They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.
The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?
Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.
Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.
Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.
It would go like this:
PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes
Sisters of Battle attend the same school and get the same training as Storm Troopers and Commissars, they just get picked up before graduation to head to the convent. Now arguably they may have vastly different combat experience but I would definitely put them in the Special Forces type category.
Asherian Command wrote: Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.
But they don't need to, by virtue of being male their eye sight helps them to focus their sight more then females. Testosterons does the changes to eye sight durning embrionic stage. Now on the other hand females see the colour spectrum better, but get distracted by other people more then men. So they should be much better spotters.
Asherian Command wrote: Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.
*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?
I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.
They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.
The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?
Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.
Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.
Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.
It would go like this:
PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes
Even in the real world there are plenty of different Elite formations - how any different special forces units do the Uk and US have alone? As a galaxy spanning organisation the Imperium does not have that many.....
er They are ELITE compared to the standard Imperial troops - which are Guard or PDF, they fight in small numbers with specialist weapons and training that is beyond that of the regular army.
Scions have the same background and training as Sisters but inferior weapons, armour and apparently divine protection. A shown in the fluff - the Scion is more akin to a standard special forces operative, the Sisters of Battle - like the Astartes are not only figures of awe and reverence but Elite troops that are able to carry out tasks that the regular military can not.
Back OT - the rule is interesting and coupled with CT on vehicles would be a needed improvement on Marines.
Bharring wrote: Finer point of lore: Marines were not involved in the conquering of Terra, that was the Sons of Thunder.
Agree with the point, though.
*Thunder Warriors, and actually there is some lore that points to marines having to help in the conqurering of earth, salamanders themselves faced the Iron Men in the depths of Terra.
Overall the bolter rule is good for astartes in general they needed it but I think we are still lacking the fundamental stratagems that would help define the space marines.
Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.
What that actually means...who knows.
Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).
The weapons of its class would be regular human sized Bolters basically.
generalchaos34 wrote: I like this new rule and I really think of they dropped tactical marines to the price of scouts they would be a very competitive option for marines. This is basically a trade off better armor vs the ability to deepstrike (especially when you consider that . additionally it would cement Tacticals as the mission geared troop choice, especially when combined with armored support of rhinos/razorbacks, and leaving Intercessors to fulfill the role of tough objective holders and generalists.
Asherian Command wrote: Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.
*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?
I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.
They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.
The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?
Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.
Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.
Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.
It would go like this:
PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes
Sisters of Battle attend the same school and get the same training as Storm Troopers and Commissars, they just get picked up before graduation to head to the convent. Now arguably they may have vastly different combat experience but I would definitely put them in the Special Forces type category.
They all start at the Schola Progenium, however, Scions are sent off to the Schola Tempestus and Commissars go to the Schola Prefectus while sister go to a convent.
Daedalus81 wrote: I will agree that it makes rubric slightly less appealing in comparison to scarabs, but slightly more appealing overall. I would love for them to bounce around with no penalties at all - that would get me to run 10 mans with no complaint.
Given the 6" on spell range the only reason I'm actually moving rubrics is to get to some objective or to be more effective with bolters. Since the latter is solved it's a net positive to me.
I tend to run Ahriman on a Disc and a pair of DPs pretty regularly, so movement is important to me, especially being able to provide some level of bubble wrap as they're moving up. To be fair, even if Rubrics were treated as Terminators I might not use them, since the cultists I use rarely fire, they usually just advance to provide a charge buffer for my characters.
Yea - understandable. I fill that role with a defiler, spawn, and sometimes rhinos.
Asherian Command wrote: Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.
But they don't need to, by virtue of being male their eye sight helps them to focus their sight more then females. Testosterons does the changes to eye sight durning embrionic stage. Now on the other hand females see the colour spectrum better, but get distracted by other people more then men. So they should be much better spotters.
You're right, it's totally unrealistic for us to have female models in the game with ballistic skill better than 4+! All those guardsmen who had their eyeballs super-enhanced by testosterone durning their embrios should get BS3+ and the females should ignore cover because they see color better.
Because THAT's the level of variation between individuals that the ruleset of 40k provides for, a game where 1 point in a stat is what separates the strength a normal man from a hulking alien fungus gorilla.
generalchaos34 wrote: I like this new rule and I really think of they dropped tactical marines to the price of scouts they would be a very competitive option for marines. This is basically a trade off better armor vs the ability to deepstrike (especially when you consider that . additionally it would cement Tacticals as the mission geared troop choice, especially when combined with armored support of rhinos/razorbacks, and leaving Intercessors to fulfill the role of tough objective holders and generalists.
Asherian Command wrote: Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.
*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?
I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.
They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.
The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?
Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.
Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.
Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.
It would go like this:
PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes
Sisters of Battle attend the same school and get the same training as Storm Troopers and Commissars, they just get picked up before graduation to head to the convent. Now arguably they may have vastly different combat experience but I would definitely put them in the Special Forces type category.
They all start at the Schola Progenium, however, Scions are sent off to the Schola Tempestus and Commissars go to the Schola Prefectus while sister go to a convent.
Only in the same way as Marines go to a monastery, all these Elite forces go through highly intensive training and indoctrination.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also I'd argue that Scions get better weapons than Sisters due to the Hot Shot not exactly being terrible.
So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?
The various "Elite" formations of the Imperium are all intended to fulfill different roles but as they are so well trained can also be committed in other roles with a high degree of sucess.
All (except probably Custodes) are intended to have gaps in their capabilities and armaments
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also I'd argue that Scions get better weapons than Sisters due to the Hot Shot not exactly being terrible.
So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?
The various "Elite" formations of the Imperium are all intended to fulfill different roles but as they are so well trained can also be committed in other roles with a high degree of sucess.
All (except probably Custodes) are intended to have gaps in their capabilities and armaments
I think rules-wise you can definitely argue that's how it appears.
Asherian Command wrote: *ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?
Because we're talking about a tabletop game where a centuries-old transhuman warrior has the same on-table shooting skill as a Guardsman who's survived a few battles. There's not a whole lot of design space for soft factors here, and the combination of extensive training and power armor puts Sisters closer to Marines than anything else.
Otherwise, I can easily turn this around: How can a warrior with a lifetime of combat experience, the best training the Imperium has to offer to baseline humans, and a powered exoskeleton that augments her senses and provides superhuman levels of aim assistance and recoil compensation, possibly be better with a weapon that has been the staple of all her kind since their founding thousands of years ago compared to a Guard lieutenant on his first assignment?
I honestly think Rubric Marines were good as they had a good amount of special rules and really just needed a small discount. They got that with Chapter Approved and NOW this rule to supplement it.
Spoletta wrote: Being less aggressive and trying to offer some arguments when disagreeing with someone is good etiquette.
You offered no evidence for your opinion. So I shared mine. Again, not buying it. They're better, but better doesn't get them on the field, better just gets them laughed off the field less frequently.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I honestly think Rubric Marines were good as they had a good amount of special rules and really just needed a small discount. They got that with Chapter Approved and NOW this rule to supplement it.
I don't have the Tsons book, but do Rubrics get A) ignore the -1 for moving and shooting, or B) do they specifically counts as Stationary for shooting purposes.
Because if it isn't option B, it should be Errata'd to that ASAP so they can get more out of this rule
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I honestly think Rubric Marines were good as they had a good amount of special rules and really just needed a small discount. They got that with Chapter Approved and NOW this rule to supplement it.
I don't have the Tsons book, but do Rubrics get A) ignore the -1 for moving and shooting, or B) do they specifically counts as Stationary for shooting purposes.
Because if it isn't option B, it should be Errata'd to that ASAP so they can get more out of this rule
I don't think Sisters should have this rule, this is a marine special rule, Custodes don't get it either. Also, both Tacticals and basic Sisters are mainly ranged units, in which role most of the stats marines pay for do not matter. Thus giving the marines this slight edge in shooting-wise too, helps to justify their higher point cost.
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome.
The super human stuff has little to do with shooting ability in most cases. The Black Carapace's application in this regard is questionable, it may have an effect, however IIRC it's generally not portrayed in any way in most GW fiction, and is usually portrayed by reducing size, stealth, or movement penalties in stuff like RPGs as opposed to having any shooting enhancement. Little in the way of other genetic enhancements have anything to do with shooting capability except eyesight (which, when used through helmet cams and weapons optics, is probably relatively equalized).
IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant.
Not every Space Marine has hundreds of years of experience. The top commanders might, but not every grunt Space Marine especially if they're actually fighting all that time, and they commonly take heavy casualties.
The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.
They are as Elite as Elite gets outside of that, and, more importantly, are there more Sisters than Space Marines? I may have missed something in the last couple of years with all the fluff upheaval at the end of 7E and the beginning of 8E, but they never really give us numbers for Sisters of Battle, and only gave background on a tiny number of Orders, and I've seen numbers as low as 40,000 for their number (10k per original order).
Ultimately I'm not too bothered either way by what happens with the Bolter rule, some justification can be found either way (same as with the Custodes, if they dont get it, it wont bother me). I was more struck by just how incredulous people were about the idea of it also applying to Sisters, where we really have to get quite nitpicky about it to find a reason why not.
Asherian Command wrote: If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?
I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.
Yeah, this sounds cool.
Sisters of silence *cough*
They're not really 'normal humans' they're blanks.
They're not really 'normal humans' they're blanks.
True, but they do wield bolters as well. Will be interesting to see if they are added in with their own version of bolter rules
Though I was hedging my bet that we get a "Talons of the Emperor' Codex which is just Custodes + Sisters of Silence + Special Inquisitors + Lucifer Blacks
Crimson wrote: I don't think Sisters should have this rule, this is a marine special rule, Custodes don't get it either. Also, both Tacticals and basic Sisters are mainly ranged units, in which role most of the stats marines pay for do not matter. Thus giving the marines this slight edge in shooting-wise too, helps to justify their higher point cost.
This is an honest question: where would this put SoB in the meta, seeing that they are essentially another power armor army and as such share many similarities with Space Marines?
Crimson wrote: I don't think Sisters should have this rule, this is a marine special rule, Custodes don't get it either. Also, both Tacticals and basic Sisters are mainly ranged units, in which role most of the stats marines pay for do not matter. Thus giving the marines this slight edge in shooting-wise too, helps to justify their higher point cost.
This is an honest question: where would this put SoB in the meta, seeing that they are essentially another power armor army and as such share many similarities with Space Marines?
Sisters are far more common than marines. I forget if which novel in the Sisters omnibus goes into, but pretty much any world with an ecclesiarchy prescience will have sisters of battle present, possibly in great numbers.
They are shown as having the numbers and skill to overwhelm the local PDF with only some difficulty. If there are only a million or so marines, there are likely 10s or 100s of millions of sisters. Compared to the IG that's small but it's still a lot of nuns with guns.
This is an honest question: where would this put SoB in the meta, seeing that they are essentially another power armor army and as such share many similarities with Space Marines?
Thats a good question for another thread!
Seeing that this thread is about the rule being discussed and its impact on the game, I think this thread will do just fine
HoundsofDemos wrote: Sisters are far more common than marines. I forget if which novel in the Sisters omnibus goes into, but pretty much any world with an ecclesiarchy prescience will have sisters of battle present, possibly in great numbers.
They are shown as having the numbers and skill to overwhelm the local PDF with only some difficulty. If there are only a million or so marines, there are likely 10s or 100s of millions of sisters. Compared to the IG that's small but it's still a lot of nuns with guns.
I would say billions. Not millions.
There are trillions of guardsmen. Billions of sisters of battle makes sense considering how they are cast aside so easily.
To answer your Question Luciferian in terms of meta sisters have faith, no real good stratagems or characters currently apart from Celest, but they are somewhat playable. Hence my suggestion of giving them different types of bolter shells that are unique to them. (or also for grey knights *cough*)
I think it's silly to consider this rule in the context of Sisters considering they have an unfinished codex with missing units we don't know anything about.
To answer your Question Luciferian in terms of meta sisters have faith, no real good stratagems or characters currently apart from Celest, but they are somewhat playable. Hence my suggestion of giving them different types of bolter shells that are unique to them. (or also for grey knights *cough*)
So in your opinion they should also get a bolter buff, just perhaps not this one?
It's really not helping anyone to try to justify this rule on fluff and argue whether other armies with bolt weapons should get it too; it's a Marine rule designed specifically for making Marines better, if it was generally applied to every army that uses bolt weapons then that would completely defeat the purpose.
I forget where i read it, but the training that sisters go through
With their bolters is comparable to training marines so, ie. The best there is.
However, this extreme training combined with the marines alterations that increase their strength and reaction times and speed to absurd levels to the points theyd frequently pretty be living in near bullet time states, it stands to reason they can pull the trigger again on the longer distance.
40k doesnt reflec all that very well; you need to look at the old games like Inquisitor where a marine can rip a human limb from limb without trying and normal humans cant keep pace wuth em.
I wouldnt want sisters to have this sort o f rule as it is yet more bolter porn thar belong in marine stuff. Sisters have to putnup with enough bolter crap in the beta (feel the saltiness over lack of flamer and melta love?).
Sisters dont want this rul e anyways. They arent a gunline army. They jump in metal boxes to get in range. If theyre trying to footslog, theyre moving every turn to get anywhere and dont benefit from it anyways and theyre dying to s3 weapons faster than marines.
So in your opinion they should also get a bolter buff, just perhaps not this one?
No they need their own unique to them.
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Arachnofiend wrote: It's really not helping anyone to try to justify this rule on fluff and argue whether other armies with bolt weapons should get it too; it's a Marine rule designed specifically for making Marines better, if it was generally applied to every army that uses bolt weapons then that would completely defeat the purpose.
Arachnofiend wrote: It's really not helping anyone to try to justify this rule on fluff and argue whether other armies with bolt weapons should get it too; it's a Marine rule designed specifically for making Marines better, if it was generally applied to every army that uses bolt weapons then that would completely defeat the purpose.
Nailed it, basically.
Much of the SM armies are complete trash tier, being outperformed by index Sisters. The worst armies in the game right now are Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and non-Ultramarine codex marines.
Trash tier armies deserve buffs. If we're going to make fluff an argument for rules, then marines should have a rerollable 2++ and 10 attacks apiece. We're not prepared to do that, so let's just depart from the fluff when discussing balance.
Asherian Command wrote: If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?
I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.
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Crimson wrote: Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.
Sisters of silence *cough*
And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.
Asherian Command wrote: If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?
I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.
Sisters of silence *cough*
And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.
Asherian Command wrote: If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?
I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.
Sisters of silence *cough*
And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.
As an overcharge effect? Yeah makes sense.
Not like plasma, but something to really make that power back pack a bit more worth it. Or extend the range. The old codex has a way to extend hot-shot range.
Asherian Command wrote: If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?
I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.
Sisters of silence *cough*
Yeah because we need more only rules only targetting specific factions.......
For the record i dislike DttFE aswell as any other such rule.
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome.
The super human stuff has little to do with shooting ability in most cases. The Black Carapace's application in this regard is questionable, it may have an effect, however IIRC it's generally not portrayed in any way in most GW fiction, and is usually portrayed by reducing size, stealth, or movement penalties in stuff like RPGs as opposed to having any shooting enhancement. Little in the way of other genetic enhancements have anything to do with shooting capability except eyesight (which, when used through helmet cams and weapons optics, is probably relatively equalized).
The black carapace links the Marine better to their armour systems. This means the armour functions directly as an extension of their nervous system, and includes the armour's autosenses.
The Marine boltgun is also linked to the autosenses, so the black carapace should allow an instinctive control over where the boltgun is actually aiming above and beyond simply having a targeting reticule on the HUD- the difference between using a gun on a video game, and knowing where your own finger is pointing.
Further to this, it is common that Marines are pointed out as being able to parse large amounts of data quickly in a way all but the most exceptional unaugmented humans cannot. Their HUD can display a huge amount of tactical information. There is no reason that this enhanced intellectual ability, combined with the superior autosenses shouldn't provide a tangible benefit to medium range shooting. They should simply be able to identify, acquire, lock on to, shoot, and reacquire a new target quicker than a unaugmented human, even with extensive training.
That isn't to say that Sisters couldn't use this buff in a reasonably fluffy way, but the line is arbitrary and needs to be drawn somewhere, and I think it is entirely supported in the fluff that Marines are superior at rapid shooting than all but a tiny minority of unaugmented humans.
Crimson wrote:
They're not really 'normal humans' they're blanks.
They may be blanks, but that doesn't account for their awesome statline. That is just pure badassery Although they may be routinely augmented to be fair, we just don't know.
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome.
The super human stuff has little to do with shooting ability in most cases. The Black Carapace's application in this regard is questionable, it may have an effect, however IIRC it's generally not portrayed in any way in most GW fiction, and is usually portrayed by reducing size, stealth, or movement penalties in stuff like RPGs as opposed to having any shooting enhancement. Little in the way of other genetic enhancements have anything to do with shooting capability except eyesight (which, when used through helmet cams and weapons optics, is probably relatively equalized).
The black carapace links the Marine better to their armour systems. This means the armour functions directly as an extension of their nervous system, and includes the armour's autosenses.
The Marine boltgun is also linked to the autosenses, so the black carapace should allow an instinctive control over where the boltgun is actually aiming above and beyond simply having a targeting reticule on the HUD- the difference between using a gun on a video game, and knowing where your own finger is pointing.
Further to this, it is common that Marines are pointed out as being able to parse large amounts of data quickly in a way all but the most exceptional unaugmented humans cannot. Their HUD can display a huge amount of tactical information. There is no reason that this enhanced intellectual ability, combined with the superior autosenses shouldn't provide a tangible benefit to medium range shooting. They should simply be able to identify, acquire, lock on to, shoot, and reacquire a new target quicker than a unaugmented human, even with extensive training.
That isn't to say that Sisters couldn't use this buff in a reasonably fluffy way, but the line is arbitrary and needs to be drawn somewhere, and I think it is entirely supported in the fluff that Marines are superior at rapid shooting than all but a tiny minority of unaugmented humans.
Crimson wrote:
They're not really 'normal humans' they're blanks.
They may be blanks, but that doesn't account for their awesome statline. That is just pure badassery Although they may be routinely augmented to be fair, we just don't know.
Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke. This is how marines are represented in this game though so whatever. Bolters are weak - they should be buffed to have some sort of special rule - this would be an acceptable buff to the bolter (which is basically a lasgun vs a lot of targets).
Buffs to specifically marines should be made. This bolter fix is not even close to making marines playable. Though - it does make HB centurians and scout bikes a lot more interesting.
You're right, it's totally unrealistic for us to have female models in the game with ballistic skill better than 4+! All those guardsmen who had their eyeballs super-enhanced by testosterone durning their embrios should get BS3+ and the females should ignore cover because they see color better.
Because THAT's the level of variation between individuals that the ruleset of 40k provides for, a game where 1 point in a stat is what separates the strength a normal man from a hulking alien fungus gorilla.
What part of all human fetuses going through such changes you do not understand. Women have a better spectrum visibility. There is ton of research done on it. And not just if it is true, but also why. Most link it to the fact that females were gathering fruits and had to be able to judge how ripe they are. At the same time males that hunted, and this goes pre homo sapines, were the ones that hunted and were tasked with defense. And "our" first defense was throwing stuff and its co ordination. To a degree all humans have "super enhanced" eye sight. Though the changes that make let you focus your eye sight better, judge movment or stay super focused, happen because of testosteron. It also has bad sides too it too. Men lose sight faster. The changes that let their brain focus on one thing, and "cut off" the rest of the world, which is great for hunting or sniping, if they effect the brain too strong you end up with someone with autism.
This is why space marines would not need any extra upgrades to have a better eye sight, comparing to an unupgraded sister of battle. Considering that they do have those upgrades, both in the form of sound and flash dampers build in to their body, they would always be better at shoting, bar "magic" somehow eqaulising the difference.
Arachnofiend wrote: It's really not helping anyone to try to justify this rule on fluff and argue whether other armies with bolt weapons should get it too; it's a Marine rule designed specifically for making Marines better, if it was generally applied to every army that uses bolt weapons then that would completely defeat the purpose.
Nailed it, basically.
Much of the SM armies are complete trash tier, being outperformed by index Sisters. The worst armies in the game right now are Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and non-Ultramarine codex marines.
Trash tier armies deserve buffs. If we're going to make fluff an argument for rules, then marines should have a rerollable 2++ and 10 attacks apiece. We're not prepared to do that, so let's just depart from the fluff when discussing balance.
It's the problem that is common with special snowflake rules being introduced to compliment fluff and also affect balance - everyone has their 2 cents as to why their faction should have special rules over others. "well if marines have it, why can't I?"
"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."
Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.
Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.
There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.
Bharring wrote: "Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."
Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.
Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.
There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.
Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.
Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.
Well I for one am very pleased to see SM get a buff for their iconic weapon. Fluff-wise it makes sense too given their training and enhanced abilities.
Bharring wrote: "Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."
Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.
Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.
There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.
I never really understood what GW's objection was to giving some of the truly heroic models 1+ stats.
It wouldn't make a difference 90% of the time but why should an avatar or demon primarch or Primarch give a toss if someones got some quick reactions or glittering armour.
Asherian Command wrote: If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?
I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.
Sisters of silence *cough*
And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.
As an overcharge effect? Yeah makes sense.
Not like plasma, but something to really make that power back pack a bit more worth it. Or extend the range. The old codex has a way to extend hot-shot range.
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome.
The super human stuff has little to do with shooting ability in most cases. The Black Carapace's application in this regard is questionable, it may have an effect, however IIRC it's generally not portrayed in any way in most GW fiction, and is usually portrayed by reducing size, stealth, or movement penalties in stuff like RPGs as opposed to having any shooting enhancement. Little in the way of other genetic enhancements have anything to do with shooting capability except eyesight (which, when used through helmet cams and weapons optics, is probably relatively equalized).
The black carapace links the Marine better to their armour systems. This means the armour functions directly as an extension of their nervous system, and includes the armour's autosenses.
The Marine boltgun is also linked to the autosenses, so the black carapace should allow an instinctive control over where the boltgun is actually aiming above and beyond simply having a targeting reticule on the HUD- the difference between using a gun on a video game, and knowing where your own finger is pointing.
Further to this, it is common that Marines are pointed out as being able to parse large amounts of data quickly in a way all but the most exceptional unaugmented humans cannot. Their HUD can display a huge amount of tactical information. There is no reason that this enhanced intellectual ability, combined with the superior autosenses shouldn't provide a tangible benefit to medium range shooting. They should simply be able to identify, acquire, lock on to, shoot, and reacquire a new target quicker than a unaugmented human, even with extensive training.
At least as far as I'm aware, the Black Carapace doesnt affect shooting so much, but rather to allow giant 9ft tall walking tanks to move and operate more naturally, as opposed to...like a giant 9ft tall walking tank. Autosensing HUDs are neat, but Sisters have such advanced power armor doodads too, and if we're talking HUD's and autosenses, then we're removing most of the shooter element from the equation anyway.
With regards to SM mental ability, unfortunately this is one of those things where GW is so variable and vague that it's hard to gauge this. Some authors talk about this, most don't, and its never really been portrayed in rules (even in the FFGrpg material, SM's arent any smarter or intelligent than anyone else) and there is no geneseed/genetic component to it (IIRC), but rather it's from training/hypnoindoctrination/chemical treatments/psychological conditioning/etc, and the Schola Progenium fluff (where Sisters and Stormtroopers start out) describes extensive use of such techniques itself.
That isn't to say that Sisters couldn't use this buff in a reasonably fluffy way, but the line is arbitrary and needs to be drawn somewhere
And thats fine, I can totally live with it being just a Marine rule, that doesn't bother me at all, I just didn't think the idea of it also applying to Sisters was as outrageous as it was made out to be as most SM enhancement is more geared to close combat and survival stuff.
Bharring wrote: "Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."
Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.
Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.
There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.
I am totally fine with exarchs having 2+ to hit - I think that was a great representation of their superior skill. It is also true that the D6 system is very limited in what it can do. You can get around it with special rules though. Perhaps a vet guardsmen can shoot as well a marine in most circumstances but how about when hitting a -1 to hit target like a flyer or an eldar bike weaving in and out using "lightning fast reflexes" perhaps a marine should not suffer penalty here but a vet guardsmen should. Perhaps that should also be a rule for any "heroic level" unit as well. Again - I am not really complaining about vets and marines having the same to hit roll in game terms - it is an unfortunate consequence of the d6 system. However, it is disappointing that there is no other attempt to distinguish units that should have a larger gap in their skill than what is represented in game terms.
Asherian Command wrote: If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?
I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.
Sisters of silence *cough*
And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.
As an overcharge effect? Yeah makes sense.
Not like plasma, but something to really make that power back pack a bit more worth it. Or extend the range. The old codex has a way to extend hot-shot range.
I'd rather Hot Shots go to Assault 2.
I'd rather volley guns go to assault 4 (or 3), grenade launchers go to assault 2, and hot-shot lasguns stay the same.
I like to think of Scions as more of hyper-specialized agent commandos jumping from Hum-vees and leaping from helicopters, pure black-ops sci-fi stuff, rather than they become crazy heavy saturation drop troops like Harakoni Warhawks. I think of Scions as thrusting daggers and soldiers like the Warhawks as grenades, if that makes any sense.
And I definitely don't want Scions to retconned into a replacement for things like Elysians and Warhawks.
Bharring wrote: "Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."
Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.
Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.
There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.
Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.
Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.
Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.
Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.
What that actually means...who knows.
Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).
Most Space Marines have been training daily with their bolt weapons longer than a Sister of Battle has been alive. And have probably spent more days in combat with the bolt weapons than Sisters have spent being Sisters of Battle.
Nevermind the advanced bionics and integrated targeting systems (SoB don't have the Black Carapace).
And this is not signifying that the bolt weapon is superior, it is signifying that the USER is superior.
Bharring wrote: "Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."
Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.
Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.
There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.
Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.
Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.
Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.
Im beginning to think units like the Castellan are really removing the fun from this game.
Mr Morden wrote: So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?
Kinda, yeah. It really puzzles me that marines are dumb enough to ignore multiple laser weapons fielded by Imperium that are plainly better that bolters judging by stats, on top of being cheaper and more reliable in fluff. Especially seeing SM carries what, like 50-60 bolts tops, while their backpacks would give them virtually unlimited laser ammo...
Captain Joystick wrote: And to be fair, even as a Sisters player I feel like space marines should be better with the bolter - they train with it as their standard core weapon and apply superhuman faculties to git good with it, and while the De'az may be a superior model (according to a 3rd edition book loaded with self agrandizement as per the norm) the sisters are still ultimately only human, and it's not unfair to suggest their fanatical enthusiasm for three types of weapons might leave them less proficient with one of them as opposed to literal superhumans devoting the lions share of their focus to the one.
Uh, what?
If anything, it's the Sisters who devote 100% to the bolter, flamer and melta are only handed to veterans. And it's still just 3 weapons, compared to two dozen options SM can take. I'd expect both to have similar amount of training in bolt guns, seeing SM also has to learn wacky stuff like aiming grav guns, missile launchers, or plasma cannons, vastly different weapons needing completely different skills, on top of doing thunder hammer/chain sword/power axe fighting, again, hard to learn completely different skillsets. Compared to this, Sisters have it trivial with bolter and melta aiming being largely identical, transferable, and using the same set of muscle memory triggers.
Note I am not saying Sisters should get this rule if that upset balance too much (though for them it would be trivial, tiny change, basically just shooting tiny bit better if standing still seeing they don't have TDA or bikes) but the amount of rage grasping at straws I seen in last few days (that one model in PA with largely identical training dares to have same rules as another PA model just because it's a girl) is hilarious
Mr Morden wrote: So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?
Kinda, yeah. It really puzzles me that marines are dumb enough to ignore multiple laser weapons fielded by Imperium that are plainly better that bolters judging by stats, on top of being cheaper and more reliable in fluff. Especially seeing SM carries what, like 50-60 bolts tops, while their backpacks would give them virtually unlimited laser ammo...
You have an AdMech avatar and you're wondering why an Imperium faction doesn't value efficiency and common sense over tradition?
Come to think of it, if we want to judge how good a unit is by its fluff dedication and fanaticism, I could have sworn I heard that in a book a pissed-off Inquisitor ordered a bunch of Scions into a shootout with Adeptus Custodes. And, of course, dogmatically following orders, they shot at the Custodes.
It's a balance change peeps, because evidently SM were/are poor competitively. Sisters are nowhere near as poor competitively (in fact they're pretty damn good) so they don't need the rule.
The same is true of Custodes or any other bolter-wielding model you think deserve the rule.
Vaktathi wrote: At least as far as I'm aware, the Black Carapace doesnt affect shooting so much, but rather to allow giant 9ft tall walking tanks to move and operate more naturally, as opposed to...like a giant 9ft tall walking tank. Autosensing HUDs are neat, but Sisters have such advanced power armor doodads too, and if we're talking HUD's and autosenses, then we're removing most of the shooter element from the equation anyway.
With regards to SM mental ability, unfortunately this is one of those things where GW is so variable and vague that it's hard to gauge this. Some authors talk about this, most don't, and its never really been portrayed in rules (even in the FFGrpg material, SM's arent any smarter or intelligent than anyone else) and there is no geneseed/genetic component to it (IIRC), but rather it's from training/hypnoindoctrination/chemical treatments/psychological conditioning/etc, and the Schola Progenium fluff (where Sisters and Stormtroopers start out) describes extensive use of such techniques itself.
That isn't to say that Sisters couldn't use this buff in a reasonably fluffy way, but the line is arbitrary and needs to be drawn somewhere
And thats fine, I can totally live with it being just a Marine rule, that doesn't bother me at all, I just didn't think the idea of it also applying to Sisters was as outrageous as it was made out to be as most SM enhancement is more geared to close combat and survival stuff.
The chief difference, for me, is that the SoB are simply reading their HUD, whereas the Marine has the ability to feel it through the black carapace, which is basically the entire point of it- to fully integrate the armour's systems with the Marine's nervous system. Don't forget that all Marine and SoB boltguns have inbuilt autosense targeters*, so if Marines have a better interface with the autosenses, they are going to be able to use the targeters more efficiently.
The black carapace affecting shooting not so much, sure, but then this buff isn't huge We are just talking about a significant enough difference to get more aimed shots off at longer range, not a huge increase overall.
The intelligence stuff is inconsistent, but the ability to process lots of data in particular is the most consistent part. That isn't intelligence per se- they can't necessarily use that in a useful way but it certainly helps with rapid reactions when acquiring fleeting targets at long range. It is all an abstraction after all.
I agree though, the idea of it applying to Sisters is not outrageous, but I also think it is not particularly outrageous that Marines shoot their bolters a little better.
*I'm not sure which part of a standard boltgun model this is supposed to be though, presumably one of the protusions next to the barrel. Obviously any attached scopes are also linked in.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It's a balance change peeps, because evidently SM were/are poor competitively. Sisters are nowhere near as poor competitively (in fact they're pretty damn good) so they don't need the rule.
The same is true of Custodes or any other bolter-wielding model you think deserve the rule.
That is the crux of the matter and I for one cheer for any attempt to bring balance to the game (and coincidentally, the force). This shows that the dev team is taking the game seriously when it comes to getting armies out on the field and competing against each other in a level manner. I hope everyone gets something like that in order to make them more competitive. Its not a huge change, but it is enough to make a difference. I just wish it had more of an impact to Tactical Squads, who need the love right now.
Mr Morden wrote: So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?
Kinda, yeah. It really puzzles me that marines are dumb enough to ignore multiple laser weapons fielded by Imperium that are plainly better that bolters judging by stats, on top of being cheaper and more reliable in fluff. Especially seeing SM carries what, like 50-60 bolts tops, while their backpacks would give them virtually unlimited laser ammo...
I would say the very old reasoning for this is that Marines are meant to be shock troops, so they used weaponry which had particularly violent and gory effects on their foes, but were still reasonably effective, like Volkite weapons and bolters. It was to get the enemy to surrender as much as kill them.
By the 41st millennium, this is simply tradition, and trying to cow various human worlds into joining the nascent Imperium is a distant memory, but they are stuck with the weapons.
Perhaps bolters need a rule to make moral effects more relevant then?
Mr Morden wrote: So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?
Kinda, yeah. It really puzzles me that marines are dumb enough to ignore multiple laser weapons fielded by Imperium that are plainly better that bolters judging by stats, on top of being cheaper and more reliable in fluff. Especially seeing SM carries what, like 50-60 bolts tops, while their backpacks would give them virtually unlimited laser ammo...
I would say the very old reasoning for this is that Marines are meant to be shock troops, so they used weaponry which had particularly violent and gory effects on their foes, but were still reasonably effective, like Volkite weapons and bolters. It was to get the enemy to surrender as much as kill them.
By the 41st millennium, this is simply tradition, and trying to cow various human worlds into joining the nascent Imperium is a distant memory, but they are stuck with the weapons.
Perhaps bolters need a rule to make moral effects more relevant then?
Plus, against something like an Ork a lasgun might blow off a limb, but the Ork will keep coming, whereas an exploding bolt will shred the entire Ork to pieces. Bolters are S4 compared to the Lasgun's S3 for a reason. If they're having to fight armoured targets they break out the Kraken rounds.
Marmatag wrote: I'd suggest they convert this to a d8 or d10 system, but that doesn't solve the core problems in 8th edition:
Some infantry are just way too cheap for what they do.
Some infantry are just way too expensive for what they do.
In general, bigger things are just way too lethal. Example: Castellan, Shadowsword.
The whole game should be scaled up from the bottom and down from the top.
It feels right that the big things are hugely lethal though- they should just up the points until they are appropriate for that lethality.
That's a totally fair statement. The problem with hugely lethal super heavies and lords of war is that it becomes a coin flip game. If you drop a shadowsword on the table, and I drop a shadowsword on the table, the game is going to be decided by who goes first.
My personal preference is a far less lethal version of the game.
Marmatag wrote: I'd suggest they convert this to a d8 or d10 system, but that doesn't solve the core problems in 8th edition:
Some infantry are just way too cheap for what they do. Some infantry are just way too expensive for what they do.
In general, bigger things are just way too lethal. Example: Castellan, Shadowsword.
The whole game should be scaled up from the bottom and down from the top.
It feels right that the big things are hugely lethal though- they should just up the points until they are appropriate for that lethality.
That's a totally fair statement. The problem with hugely lethal super heavies and lords of war is that it becomes a coin flip game. If you drop a shadowsword on the table, and I drop a shadowsword on the table, the game is going to be decided by who goes first.
My personal preference is a far less lethal version of the game.
I think this is why it was good when such units were confined to larger games, where there were often several big units and larger boards with big terrain, so the lethality was mitigated.
Although lots of large LOS blocking terrain helps with many things.
Hey, since were all complaining about about being underpowered and under represented with bolter discipline, how about letting my Plague Marines fire their bolters as pistols in CC?
Nightlord1987 wrote: Hey, since were all complaining about about being underpowered and under represented with bolter discipline, how about letting my Plague Marines fire their bolters as pistols in CC?
What if Inexorable Advance was just reworded to fit the new rule better? Something like "a unit with this ability increases the range it may fire twice with rapid fire weapons by six inches". So if you don't fit the new criteria a Plague Marine is still double tapping at 18", but if you do your bolters have an even longer range than normal at 30". I think that would fit the spirit of the legion trait better than changing bolters into pistols.
If anything, it's the Sisters who devote 100% to the bolter, flamer and melta are only handed to veterans. And it's still just 3 weapons, compared to two dozen options SM can take. I'd expect both to have similar amount of training in bolt guns, seeing SM also has to learn wacky stuff like aiming grav guns, missile launchers, or plasma cannons, vastly different weapons needing completely different skills, on top of doing thunder hammer/chain sword/power axe fighting, again, hard to learn completely different skillsets. Compared to this, Sisters have it trivial with bolter and melta aiming being largely identical, transferable, and using the same set of muscle memory triggers.
To be fair, many musicians devote themselves entirely to just playing the guitar all their lives. And yet they can be out shown by an exceptionally talented musician on guitar even if that isn't the exceptionally talented musician's primary instrument.
Bharring wrote: "Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."
Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.
Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.
There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.
Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.
Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.
Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.
Im beginning to think units like the Castellan are really removing the fun from this game.
OFC they are - with all it's buffs from WL trait and relic it's easily a 1000 point unit. You get it for 600 points.
Bharring wrote: "Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."
Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.
Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.
There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.
Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.
Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.
Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.
Im beginning to think units like the Castellan are really removing the fun from this game.
OFC they are - with all it's buffs from WL trait and relic it's easily a 1000 point unit. You get it for 600 points.
This coming from a guy that back in the day cried about conscripts being unbreakable all over Dakka? aaaannnyyywwwaaayyyy...
Yeah you totally schooled me there...not even sure why that is relevant other than the fact I was right that they were OP and guard are still REALLY OP. You could literally give all tacs storm bolters for 0 cost and infantry would outperform them.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah you totally schooled me there...not even sure why that is relevant other than the fact I was right that they were OP and guard are still REALLY OP. You could literally give all tacs storm bolters for 0 cost and infantry would outperform them.
OP? You were right? Nah fam you’re wrong on almost every level. Conscripts were amazing but not OP. When something kicks your butt in almost every game (which I’m assuming is your source of whining) that doesn’t make it OP, it makes it a good unit. When a unit single handidly wins all games is when it’s OP. Guard are in an amazing spot. As are orks, 1k sons, marines of nurgle, all of the eldar factions, tau.. all are in good standing. That’s a BIG chunk of armies there, better than some previous editions had. So stop being all upset and enjoy this game for once.
Really curious what Pain4Pleasure considers to actually be OP... Conscripts at their prime were probably the most dominant unit in 8th. Even the Castellan hasn't been as meta-warping as a bunch of untrained mooks with flashlights.
So, at least three pages were added since I last posted.
Several other people added the source request, and made many of the same fluff arguments as to why Space Marines wouldn't be the only ones to qualify for this, or a similar rule.
If we're going to keep talking about this though, could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.
CapRichard wrote: I read this rule as: double potshots for all objective camper/long range support units. Yey.
Yeah first thing I thought when I read the rule was: how would this have affected my last game? It wouldn't have
Pretty much, it won't make or break most games, it's kinda meaningful on Bikes/Terminators/etc, but the basic Tac marine doesn't get too much out of it, and they're the ones that needed something the most.
It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.
There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.
The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.
Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.
Xenomancers wrote: It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.
Yeah, GW went for a "rule of cool" addition that wasn't well thought out. It helps...just not in the way it needs to
Nightlord1987 wrote: Hey, since were all complaining about about being underpowered and under represented with bolter discipline, how about letting my Plague Marines fire their bolters as pistols in CC?
I quite like that idea
+1
Plague marines losing that +1 attack in CC still stings
Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.
Im beginning to think units like the Castellan are really removing the fun from this game.
OFC they are - with all it's buffs from WL trait and relic it's easily a 1000 point unit. You get it for 600 points.
The Castellan is one of the coolest looking models imo. Giant stompy medieval looking robot bristling with guns. So cool.
Played a game tonight using the beta bolter rule against a Guard / IK list.
My army is a Black Legion gunline. The relevant units are Abaddon, 3 Laspreds with combi-bolters and 3 10 man CSM squads with 2 lascannons each. It had a total of 24 bolters and 4 combi-bolters (counting the Talon of Horus, even though it doesn't have 'bolt' in the name.)
The beta rule came into play with units between 12 and 24 inches away. Immediate thoughts:
- The beta rule is useful, sometimes. These are still bolters and they are really only good against Infantry.
- Combi-bolters on vehicles are worth it. It was fun figuring out who to go after with them and they made a difference in several situations.
- Against Infantry / Tempestus, each CSM squad averaged 6 more hits and 2 more wounds a turn for units at full strength. Total, it worked out to 18 more wounds over 4 rounds of shooting (I rolled separately for the beta dice to keep track.) The extra wounds forced morale checks twice, the actual number of models that left the table worked out to be just under 30.
- Against a Leman Russ, the bolters got some hits but no wounds. Bolters, even when rapid firing, are terrible against T8.
- Against wounded Infantry squads, the Combi-Bolters got some work done. I did wipe out a unit with one and force a failed morale check with another. I was using them at the end of turns, once it was clear who needed the most love.
While the game went well, I feel like this was a best case scenario. My army doesn't really move, it sits back and shoots stuff up with lascannons. Once the Knight went down, my opponent was forced to push up toward my lines. It was a good situation for me and it's not going to happen every game.
Overall, my impression is the beta rule does not make much of a difference. The extra wounds and failed morale checks were nice but they were nothing game-changing. My beatsticks - Abaddon, the Daemon Prince and the Helbrutes - could have done the same work had they gotten into combat.
The one area where I think the beta rule is generally useful is against weakened units. Being able to use a combi-bolter to tack on another wound at the end of a turn is nice, I could see how Night Lords could put this to good use to maximize attrition.
The one thing I would change about the beta rule is to make bolters AP -1 when rapid firing. I know this sounds like wishlisting, but there were a couple situations where I was like, okay, I have 16 shots from this unit and they can't really hurt anything they can target. This rule addresses volume of fire at distance and I'm not sure that's the right problem to solve. The worst thing about bolters is that they don't do enough damage to anything but light infantry.
The last thing I wanted to say is this got me thinking about my list. Specifically, about replacing the CSM with Chosen with combi-bolters. The reason I've been using CSMs, besides stacking up lascannons, has to do with detachments and command points. I think I could deal with losing a few command points in exchange for double the number of bolter shots, but most of the armies I face are better equipped to deal with them. Hence the point about AP -1.
I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.
novembermike wrote: I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.
Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Sisters are far more common than marines. I forget if which novel in the Sisters omnibus goes into, but pretty much any world with an ecclesiarchy prescience will have sisters of battle present, possibly in great numbers.
They are shown as having the numbers and skill to overwhelm the local PDF with only some difficulty. If there are only a million or so marines, there are likely 10s or 100s of millions of sisters. Compared to the IG that's small but it's still a lot of nuns with guns.
I would say billions. Not millions.
There are trillions of guardsmen. Billions of sisters of battle makes sense considering how they are cast aside so easily.
To answer your Question Luciferian in terms of meta sisters have faith, no real good stratagems or characters currently apart from Celest, but they are somewhat playable. Hence my suggestion of giving them different types of bolter shells that are unique to them. (or also for grey knights *cough*)
Sanctified Ammunition [1CP] - Pick a friendly [Adeptus Sororitas] unit within 6" of a [Grey Knights] squad. Dead 1d3 mortal wounds to that unit. For the remainder of the turn, all of the ranged and melee attacks of the [Grey Knights] count as 1 AP lower than it would normally be.
Sanctified Armor [1CP] - Pick a friendly [Adeptus Sororitas] unit within 6" of a [Grey Knights] squad. Dead 1d3 mortal wounds to that unit. For the remainder of the turn, the [Grey Knights] unit has a 5+ Invulnerable Save. If the unit already has an Invulnerable Save, it's value is increased by 1 (Maximum of 3+).
Maaaaaaybe a little tongue in cheek there. (and of course poorly worded/phrased)
novembermike wrote: I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.
Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.
I don't think it makes sense for Sisters to get Bolter Discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff - Sisters are normal humans with power armor. Space Marines are genetically augmented super soldiers with biomechanical enhancements tailored to improve their tactical efficiency. It makes sense all that engineering would result in a soldier who's handier with their basic armament.
2) Rules - Sisters have their own special mechanics, like Acts of Faith. It makes sense to differentiate between the armies to give each a unique flavor.
3) Points - Sisters are 9 points, Tacticals are 13 points. You can field a lot more Sisters than you can Space Marines. Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline technically nerfs Tacticals, while this rule seems to be aimed at improving the situation for Tacticals (and terminators, and bikes, etc.) It makes sense to focus on Space Marines given their current challenges on the tabletop.
4) It's Not About the Gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not Better Bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordinary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lot of enthusiasm for Sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sisters are pretty tough as-is and I'm not sure I see the deficiency that makes it necessary to tinker with their rules too much.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah you totally schooled me there...not even sure why that is relevant other than the fact I was right that they were OP and guard are still REALLY OP. You could literally give all tacs storm bolters for 0 cost and infantry would outperform them.
OP? You were right? Nah fam you’re wrong on almost every level. Conscripts were amazing but not OP. When something kicks your butt in almost every game (which I’m assuming is your source of whining) that doesn’t make it OP, it makes it a good unit. When a unit single handidly wins all games is when it’s OP. Guard are in an amazing spot. As are orks, 1k sons, marines of nurgle, all of the eldar factions, tau.. all are in good standing. That’s a BIG chunk of armies there, better than some previous editions had. So stop being all upset and enjoy this game for once.
Sure man, try enjoying playing GK. also I dont understand the argument used here, if someone was losing all games because of conscripts, then weren't they kind of a winning all those games for the other guy ? Wouldn't those conscripts fall under your definition of OP? Because if the only type of unit or army you consider OP is something that gives a 100% win ratio, then no such unit exists. Even if by some freak accident an army would win against all other, there would still be mirrors.
Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.
All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.
techsoldaten wrote: Played a game tonight using the beta bolter rule against a Guard / IK list.
My army is a Black Legion gunline. The relevant units are Abaddon, 3 Laspreds with combi-bolters and 3 10 man CSM squads with 2 lascannons each. It had a total of 24 bolters and 4 combi-bolters (counting the Talon of Horus, even though it doesn't have 'bolt' in the name.)
The beta rule came into play with units between 12 and 24 inches away. Immediate thoughts:
- The beta rule is useful, sometimes. These are still bolters and they are really only good against Infantry.
- Combi-bolters on vehicles are worth it. It was fun figuring out who to go after with them and they made a difference in several situations.
- Against Infantry / Tempestus, each CSM squad averaged 6 more hits and 2 more wounds a turn for units at full strength. Total, it worked out to 18 more wounds over 4 rounds of shooting (I rolled separately for the beta dice to keep track.) The extra wounds forced morale checks twice, the actual number of models that left the table worked out to be just under 30.
- Against a Leman Russ, the bolters got some hits but no wounds. Bolters, even when rapid firing, are terrible against T8.
- Against wounded Infantry squads, the Combi-Bolters got some work done. I did wipe out a unit with one and force a failed morale check with another. I was using them at the end of turns, once it was clear who needed the most love.
While the game went well, I feel like this was a best case scenario. My army doesn't really move, it sits back and shoots stuff up with lascannons. Once the Knight went down, my opponent was forced to push up toward my lines. It was a good situation for me and it's not going to happen every game.
Overall, my impression is the beta rule does not make much of a difference. The extra wounds and failed morale checks were nice but they were nothing game-changing. My beatsticks - Abaddon, the Daemon Prince and the Helbrutes - could have done the same work had they gotten into combat.
The one area where I think the beta rule is generally useful is against weakened units. Being able to use a combi-bolter to tack on another wound at the end of a turn is nice, I could see how Night Lords could put this to good use to maximize attrition.
The one thing I would change about the beta rule is to make bolters AP -1 when rapid firing. I know this sounds like wishlisting, but there were a couple situations where I was like, okay, I have 16 shots from this unit and they can't really hurt anything they can target. This rule addresses volume of fire at distance and I'm not sure that's the right problem to solve. The worst thing about bolters is that they don't do enough damage to anything but light infantry.
The last thing I wanted to say is this got me thinking about my list. Specifically, about replacing the CSM with Chosen with combi-bolters. The reason I've been using CSMs, besides stacking up lascannons, has to do with detachments and command points. I think I could deal with losing a few command points in exchange for double the number of bolter shots, but most of the armies I face are better equipped to deal with them. Hence the point about AP -1.
Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.
One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.
But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.
I would be soooo down for AP-1 bolters (and AP-3 infernal). Usually people bring up the fact that bolters aren't really armor piercing but AP-1 only blows through cultist&ork armour (so thsirts and trenchcoats)
I mean, they won't get that buff since primaris exist and are already AP-1 and that's where the SM line is going but one can dream
Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.
One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.
But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.
You only upgrade one of the combi bolters. It's a really really bad stratagem. Only really worth considering for a twin heavy bolter on a LR really.
Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.
One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.
But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.
You only upgrade one of the combi bolters. It's a really really bad stratagem. Only really worth considering for a twin heavy bolter on a LR really.
Oops, 2 CP then. Forgot about it only affecting 1 weapon. As for it being “bad”, I agree in a small way, but, it all depends on what you’re doing with the rest of your CP and how many you have. Starting with 14CP isn’t unreasonable for a Thousand Sons army (pure, let alone Chaos Soup) so spending 2 only drops you to 12, and with those 12 you likely have more than enough for the main strats you want to pull off over the first 3 turns.
novembermike wrote: I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.
Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.
I don't think it makes sense for Sisters to get Bolter Discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff - Sisters are normal humans with power armor. Space Marines are genetically augmented super soldiers with biomechanical enhancements tailored to improve their tactical efficiency. It makes sense all that engineering would result in a soldier who's handier with their basic armament.
2) Rules - Sisters have their own special mechanics, like Acts of Faith. It makes sense to differentiate between the armies to give each a unique flavor.
3) Points - Sisters are 9 points, Tacticals are 13 points. You can field a lot more Sisters than you can Space Marines. Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline technically nerfs Tacticals, while this rule seems to be aimed at improving the situation for Tacticals (and terminators, and bikes, etc.) It makes sense to focus on Space Marines given their current challenges on the tabletop.
4) It's Not About the Gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not Better Bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordinary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lot of enthusiasm for Sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sisters are pretty tough as-is and I'm not sure I see the deficiency that makes it necessary to tinker with their rules too much.
I think it makes sence for sisters to get bolter discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff- Sisters train hours a day using the weapon, which can be used by unaugmented humans with no issues. Sisters infact specialize in it's use.
2) Rules- Space Marines already have better stats, it makes sense that units with similar weapons training would have similar rules.
3) Points- Sisters are 9 points, for that they have a lower leadership, lower strength, lower toughness, and lower WS. The difference in points isn't enough to offset that difference in durability from T4 alone in the use of small arms. Giving sisters bolter disicpline technically buffs sisters to tac marine levels with small arms fire, and vehicles.
4)It's not about the gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not better bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters shooting is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordianary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces, like the ones that consider it's use a literal sacred task.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lack of understanding of sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sister's recent beta heavily nerfed the army, and this rule makes their long range objective holding and vehicles more on par with the rest of the game, particularly imperial units.
While I matched your format, and much of your writing style, all of my points are legitimate reasons why this could be applied to sisters, sisters (silence) and custodies. Granted #3 is a bit of a stretch.
Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.
One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.
But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.
You only upgrade one of the combi bolters. It's a really really bad stratagem. Only really worth considering for a twin heavy bolter on a LR really.
Oops, 2 CP then. Forgot about it only affecting 1 weapon. As for it being “bad”, I agree in a small way, but, it all depends on what you’re doing with the rest of your CP and how many you have. Starting with 14CP isn’t unreasonable for a Thousand Sons army (pure, let alone Chaos Soup) so spending 2 only drops you to 12, and with those 12 you likely have more than enough for the main strats you want to pull off over the first 3 turns.
With the price drops on havoc launcher also, it's nice to have the full combo on your rhino. 2 combi bolters + a havoc launcher clocks on 80 pts now, and it gives you 8 bolter shots and d6str 5 shots. Because of that I don't think it's worth spending the 2CP on making only some of the rhino shots ap-2, especially when it's not really what the army is lacking to be honest. TSONS are very CP hungry, you want to be using command re-roll, cabalistic focus, Votlw and deamonforge every single turn.
The way I see the rhino now is the Tsons equivalent to the bikers squad. Fast, durable unit that can do a decent dakka output for 80 pts.
Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.
One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.
But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.
You only upgrade one of the combi bolters. It's a really really bad stratagem. Only really worth considering for a twin heavy bolter on a LR really.
Oops, 2 CP then. Forgot about it only affecting 1 weapon. As for it being “bad”, I agree in a small way, but, it all depends on what you’re doing with the rest of your CP and how many you have. Starting with 14CP isn’t unreasonable for a Thousand Sons army (pure, let alone Chaos Soup) so spending 2 only drops you to 12, and with those 12 you likely have more than enough for the main strats you want to pull off over the first 3 turns.
With the price drops on havoc launcher also, it's nice to have the full combo on your rhino. 2 combi bolters + a havoc launcher clocks on 80 pts now, and it gives you 8 bolter shots and d6str 5 shots. Because of that I don't think it's worth spending the 2CP on making only some of the rhino shots ap-2, especially when it's not really what the army is lacking to be honest. TSONS are very CP hungry, you want to be using command re-roll, cabalistic focus, Votlw and deamonforge every single turn.
The way I see the rhino now is the Tsons equivalent to the bikers squad. Fast, durable unit that can do a decent dakka output for 80 pts.
My current TSons list goes through Focus & maybe a CP in the psychic phase, maybe a CP in the charge phase, VotLW in the charge and Tzaangor fight twice, for a total of 6 a turn in the worst case scenario. Plus 1 additional for a webway unit.
Turn 2, I generally only need VotLW and maybe Cabalistic Focus and a charge re-roll – so by the end of turn 2 I’ve probably spend up to 10 of the 14CP – but, even then I’m not always using Cabalistic Focus, as I tend not to need +3 to cast on WC7 powers.
Daemonforge I don’t need, as I’m not running a defiler.
This to me, opens up the possibility of trying this out without too many consequences.
NurglesR0T wrote: Problem is if you made the Castellan 1000 points, no one would use it.
I think the Knights in general are very cool models and I have a few on my shelf - but they never should have made their way into standard 40k.
At very competitive levels sure, it would be out of the most broken and overpowered lists.
But there are people who use a 920 points stompa, and a 1000 points castellan would still outperform the ork super heavy by a large margin.
If someone loves the model the castellan would be played no matter what, because at that prices it wouldn't be trash. The super dude actually worths 900-1000 points so it would be an okish option in casual and semi competitive games. Which is IMHO the appropriate dimension for such units.
NurglesR0T wrote: Problem is if you made the Castellan 1000 points, no one would use it.
I think the Knights in general are very cool models and I have a few on my shelf - but they never should have made their way into standard 40k.
At very competitive levels sure, it would be out of the most broken and overpowered lists.
But there are people who use a 920 points stompa, and a 1000 points castellan would still outperform the ork super heavy by a large margin.
If someone loves the model the castellan would be played no matter what, because at that prices it wouldn't be trash. The super dude actually worths 900-1000 points so it would be an okish option in casual and semi competitive games. Which is IMHO the appropriate dimension for such units.
Ah, those times when a carnifex was one of the biggest things you could field on the table...
I think the Castellan (and all other IK) should be capped at a 5+ invuln instead.
Make rotate ion shields 1CP for everybody and change it to reflect back a mortal wound for each unmodified invuln save of a 6 they make.
Make ion bulwark a 5+ invuln in CC as well (that already exists as a relic but I don't see the problem of having it be a warlord trait as well)
Only make the house stratagems available for the Knight Lance formation. Meaning you at least need 2 armigers as well as a big 'un for that "Order of companions" strat.
Raise the castellan 100ish points, raise the gallant 50. Lower the cost of the rapid fire battle cannon by 25.
If all of this happens I feel like we'll start seeing heavy vehicles without invulns in the game again. I don't think the point increase for the castellan should be crazy if we fix the biggest issue IMO, the 3++.
The problem with that is there's enough heavy fire power to drop a knight with a 3+ quickly in most armies.
Other heavy vehicles won't, and don't stand a chance. And there are other reasons they aren't taken, but knights are. A knight can leave combat and shoot. A Leman Russ, or Land Raider can't.
This game really needs less shooting or better defenses. I didn't spend months painting my stuff just to have them put back in the case in the first turn.
Where's this idea that Sisters and Marines have the same level of training coming from? One of the advantages of being a genetically modified murder-gorilla is that you can train in ways that would kill even the hardiest of unmodified human. The averare Scout probably has way more experience in combat than your average Sister of Battle. The advantages of having your Bolter effectively be part of your nervous system as opposed to just a tool due to the Black Carapace has already been mentioned.
Mmmpi wrote: The problem with that is there's enough heavy fire power to drop a knight with a 3+ quickly in most armies.
Other heavy vehicles won't, and don't stand a chance. And there are other reasons they aren't taken, but knights are. A knight can leave combat and shoot. A Leman Russ, or Land Raider can't.
Yes, because knights are so good right now that you have to bring enough firepower to drop them. You will face IK in a tournament, 9/10 times. Not preparing for it is ridiculous. Make IK worse and they'll be less prevalent, meaning people can stop skewing super hard towards AT.
As for IK being able to leave combat and still function, I don't see the issue. Land raiders dropped a lot in points (probably not enough) but are you really complaining about leman russes? They're cheap and are in an army with an endless supply of chaff to protect them. With the price drop to tank commanders those guys are offensively good and if the Castellan went up in points dropping the overall need for all that AT those guys can really start putting the hurt on a lot of lists.
This isn't really pertaining to the bolter rule though, so I'll stop. I mean you can argue that better bolters makes the flexibility a bit tempting with tacticals and having them as backfield holders with a lascannon in each squad.
PiñaColada wrote: I think the Castellan (and all other IK) should be capped at a 5+ invuln instead.
Make rotate ion shields 1CP for everybody and change it to reflect back a mortal wound for each unmodified invuln save of a 6 they make.
Make ion bulwark a 5+ invuln in CC as well (that already exists as a relic but I don't see the problem of having it be a warlord trait as well)
Only make the house stratagems available for the Knight Lance formation. Meaning you at least need 2 armigers as well as a big 'un for that "Order of companions" strat.
Raise the castellan 100ish points, raise the gallant 50. Lower the cost of the rapid fire battle cannon by 25.
If all of this happens I feel like we'll start seeing heavy vehicles without invulns in the game again. I don't think the point increase for the castellan should be crazy if we fix the biggest issue IMO, the 3++.
I wouldn't even change the cost of the castellan, the model is fine.
650 points for 4 plasma cannons a couple of missiles and some predator autocannon are not overpowered. You can get much more than that with those points.
The problem is in the invul save and in the Cawl's wrath, if it weren't for that trait and that relic, the castellan would be perfectly fine.
Mmmpi wrote: The problem with that is there's enough heavy fire power to drop a knight with a 3+ quickly in most armies.
Other heavy vehicles won't, and don't stand a chance. And there are other reasons they aren't taken, but knights are. A knight can leave combat and shoot. A Leman Russ, or Land Raider can't.
Most armies=two overpowered soups actually. Maybe 3 with AM.
Not even stand alone drukhari can 1-shot a knight unless they're heavy tailoring against the imperium list, which makes them extremely bad against several other common armies.
I wouldn't even change the cost of the castellan, the model is fine.
650 points for 4 plasma cannons a couple of missiles and some predator autocannon are not overpowered. You can get much more than that with those points.
The problem is in the invul save and in the Cawl's wrath, if it weren't for that trait and that relic, the castellan would be perfectly fine.
It's not 650 points though. It's 593 or 604 depending on loadout.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Where's this idea that Sisters and Marines have the same level of training coming from? One of the advantages of being a genetically modified murder-gorilla is that you can train in ways that would kill even the hardiest of unmodified human. The averare Scout probably has way more experience in combat than your average Sister of Battle. The advantages of having your Bolter effectively be part of your nervous system as opposed to just a tool due to the Black Carapace has already been mentioned.
We also know from third edition that codex marine chapters spend around 13 hours a day drilling shooting in various scenarios and only spend 4 hours of the 24 hour cycle sleeping. Everything else is drilling with a small section of time dedicated to prayers. Unlike Astartes SOB couldn't function with just 4 hours a sleep a day.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Where's this idea that Sisters and Marines have the same level of training coming from? One of the advantages of being a genetically modified murder-gorilla is that you can train in ways that would kill even the hardiest of unmodified human. The averare Scout probably has way more experience in combat than your average Sister of Battle. The advantages of having your Bolter effectively be part of your nervous system as opposed to just a tool due to the Black Carapace has already been mentioned.
You mean these scouts that explicitly are not deployed to most battles chapter faces, unlike sisters, and when they are, it's mostly stealthy skulking about, not full on combat, again unlike sisters? These ones? Who by the way cease to be the scouts after about 10 year tops, so you actually have it backwards, typical line sister will be way more experienced than a scout, who by the way gets the benefit of the new bolter rule without having black carapace so this point is null and void too.
As for training, it's called 'diminishing returns'. It takes roughly 5-10 years to master any skill, well within possibility range of even 30 year old sister. After that, it becomes increasingly hard to make even tiny, incremental advances especially seeing the sisters do fight with the bolter 100% of the time, and the SM is kicked to assault squad once he learns shooting well enough to learn completely different skill set while becoming rusty with big guns again. In fact you could argue it would take a veteran tactical marine to equal a good sister in bolter shooting as the extra years will be largely 'wasted' acquiring proficiency in weapons sisters will never use...
Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.
All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.
"Sigh" Listen Mate - its a thread about Bolters and we were talking about the varous users and if the rule should apply to them - if you had bothered to read.
Be far more productive for you to moan about the constant intrusion into every thread of "Marines suck"
And on your point - are you talking about ALL Bolters or just (as usual) Marine ones - does that include Heavy Bolters including Guard ones?
Xenomancers wrote: It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.
There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.
The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.
Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.
I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.
You've got:
SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.
Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.
Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.
Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.
Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?
What's this all about then eh? Genetically modified massive superhumans who have their guns neurologically wired into their nervous system and spend more hours in a day training with them than everything else in their day combined, vs a militant religious order of humans who like their guns a lot and are pretty good with them?
There's no fluff argument for giving SoB the same rule that I can see...
Mmmpi wrote: So, at least three pages were added since I last posted.
Several other people added the source request, and made many of the same fluff arguments as to why Space Marines wouldn't be the only ones to qualify for this, or a similar rule.
If we're going to keep talking about this though, could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.
I haven’t seen any casual sexism here. The worst I’ve noticed is people trying to apply biological differences between men and women to this argument, and that isn’t sexist. It is just useless as we don’t have a game system built for that kind of granularity.
I think the whole Black Carapace argument is much more viable in this scenario. Feeling you weapon in your mind sounds better than someone that just uses a weapon.
Mmmpi wrote: The problem with that is there's enough heavy fire power to drop a knight with a 3+ quickly in most armies.
Other heavy vehicles won't, and don't stand a chance. And there are other reasons they aren't taken, but knights are. A knight can leave combat and shoot. A Leman Russ, or Land Raider can't.
Most armies=two overpowered soups actually. Maybe 3 with AM.
Not even stand alone drukhari can 1-shot a knight unless they're heavy tailoring against the imperium list, which makes them extremely bad against several other common armies.
Yeah it's always been pretty funny to me that people pretend that any one eldar faction has an answer to knights. the ONLY thing that downs them in one turn is a specific soup combo that combines a psychic power from one codex with an ability (haywire) from one of two different codexes.
Meanwhile, if I want to handle a 3++ save knight with my thousand sons, I take the psychic power that lets me do that, cast it with a +1 or +2 to cast guy, and then just shoot the dang knight with any lascannons I have.
Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.
All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.
"Sigh" Listen Mate - its a thread about Bolters and we were talking about the varous users and if the rule should apply to them - if you had bothered to read.
Be far more productive for you to moan about the constant intrusion into every thread of "Marines suck"
And on your point - are you talking about ALL Bolters or just (as usual) Marine ones - does that include Heavy Bolters including Guard ones?
If we are including Astra Militarum, would should only count Scions. So, Storm Bolters on Taurox Primes, anybody?
Mmmpi wrote: So, at least three pages were added since I last posted.
Several other people added the source request, and made many of the same fluff arguments as to why Space Marines wouldn't be the only ones to qualify for this, or a similar rule.
If we're going to keep talking about this though, could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.
I haven’t seen any casual sexism here. The worst I’ve noticed is people trying to apply biological differences between men and women to this argument, and that isn’t sexist. It is just useless as we don’t have a game system built for that kind of granularity.
I think the whole Black Carapace argument is much more viable in this scenario. Feeling you weapon in your mind sounds better than someone that just uses a weapon.
If you go into a setting that is designed to be fantastical wish-fulfillment, full of things that are completely beyond the pale of reality, and you use some minute biological distinction between males and females to justify the need to limit women in the setting despite ignoring the numerous other hilariously glaring instances of non-realism as features of the narrative setting (such as, why are 95% of the humans depicted in the setting european?) that is a great example of casual sexism.
This is a setting where your regular humans not wearing face masks are allowed to fight the super duper plague faction and all your soldiers don't keel over and vomit their guts out on turn 2 causing you to auto-lose. Because if that realism was applied, it wouldn't work as a game. Your super-soldiers are allowed to drop onto the battlefield at terminal velocity and not get turned to mush in their armor because that's AWESOME, who the feth cares?
Women are allowed to be elite soldiers with higher ballistic skill without someone going "but muh testosterone!"
Diminishing returns or not, someone who practices 13 hours a day and only needs to sleep 4 hours every day is going to get so much more training in than someone who's only human. Plus, you're still assuming that the training is the same kind of training. Why would a transhuman monster who's faster, stronger, and able to process information much faster than a human be training in the same manner as someone who's human?
Sure, Scouts may not be part of every engagement their Chapter faces, but fighting or going to places where there is fighting is all Space Marines do. Marines usually don't do garrison duty except as part of garrisons they know are going to come under attack. Plus, I'm pretty sure they're Scouts for longer than 10 years.
Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.
All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.
"Sigh" Listen Mate - its a thread about Bolters and we were talking about the varous users and if the rule should apply to them - if you had bothered to read.
Be far more productive for you to moan about the constant intrusion into every thread of "Marines suck"
And on your point - are you talking about ALL Bolters or just (as usual) Marine ones - does that include Heavy Bolters including Guard ones?
You are talking about who trains the longest hours and sleeps the less, if bolter training has diminishing returns or not and if superhuman strength or faith should give one better shooting. So go sigh somewhere else, ty. If at any point you are confused, read the title of the thread.
Mmmpi wrote: So, at least three pages were added since I last posted.
Several other people added the source request, and made many of the same fluff arguments as to why Space Marines wouldn't be the only ones to qualify for this, or a similar rule.
If we're going to keep talking about this though, could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.
I haven’t seen any casual sexism here. The worst I’ve noticed is people trying to apply biological differences between men and women to this argument, and that isn’t sexist. It is just useless as we don’t have a game system built for that kind of granularity.
I think the whole Black Carapace argument is much more viable in this scenario. Feeling you weapon in your mind sounds better than someone that just uses a weapon.
If you go into a setting that is designed to be fantastical wish-fulfillment, full of things that are completely beyond the pale of reality, and you use some minute biological distinction between males and females to justify the need to limit women in the setting despite ignoring the numerous other hilariously glaring instances of non-realism as features of the narrative setting (such as, why are 95% of the humans depicted in the setting european?) that is a great example of casual sexism.
This is a setting where your regular humans not wearing face masks are allowed to fight the super duper plague faction and all your soldiers don't keel over and vomit their guts out on turn 2 causing you to auto-lose. Because if that realism was applied, it wouldn't work as a game. Your super-soldiers are allowed to drop onto the battlefield at terminal velocity and not get turned to mush in their armor because that's AWESOME, who the feth cares?
Women are allowed to be elite soldiers with higher ballistic skill without someone going "but muh testosterone!"
It's a fantasy setting. Get over it.
Sure, beyond the pale of reality, however normal humans still have physical limitations. That is grounded in reality for this setting. That’s why super soldiers like Astartes are made (the better reasoning for this rule, IMO).
These minute biological differences are not sexist. They just aren’t a good argument for a game where that kind of granularity can’t be achieved.
It isn’t the first game to take realism into account to make a game more fun, however. I would have been vary annoyed if the parachute I was using in Battlefield 1 didn’t work every time, where it should have jammed sometimes.
In a scenario where one is fighting the plague marines and like, I’d imagine they would be equipped with proper gear. WYSIWYG isn’t an actual rule.
Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.
All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.
"Sigh" Listen Mate - its a thread about Bolters and we were talking about the varous users and if the rule should apply to them - if you had bothered to read.
Be far more productive for you to moan about the constant intrusion into every thread of "Marines suck"
And on your point - are you talking about ALL Bolters or just (as usual) Marine ones - does that include Heavy Bolters including Guard ones?
You are talking about who trains the longest hours and sleeps the less, if bolter training has diminishing returns or not and if superhuman strength or faith should give one better shooting. So go sigh somewhere else, ty. If at any point you are confused, read the title of the thread.
I Read the title - did you? Read it again....
New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
- its a statement inviting discusion of the rule, how and why its implemented or are you deciding who and how someone responds to it =- if so cite your authority.
Double "Sigh" mate - I was one of several who said i didn't think that Sisters (or either kind) should get the rule - extra points on your reading skill or lack of it. Talking about whether or not the new rule was approrpiate or not or should be exanded is not exactly off topic. IS IT
So talks about the Castellan (who doesn't even carry the damned weapons) or talks about not giving a rule to plastic inanimate models who depict fictional non existing people constitues sexism or not seems on topic to you, right?
Xenomancers wrote: It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.
There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.
The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.
Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.
I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.
You've got:
SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.
Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.
Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.
Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.
Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?
Thinking that DW vets won't get Bolter Drill is pretty short sighted. It's obviously a rule for all of these types and will probably get adjusted quickly. You don't lose thousands of years of experience as soon as you are transferred to a unit in power armour. In fact, not allowing it currently is being a little bit TFG as you are employing a technicality in the keywords to disallow it when the rule doesn't seem to want exceptions (all terminators get it, except this fellow here).
I think he means that since they teleport within 12" they were already in RF range and as such don't really benefit from this new rule. It does give them better flexibility for later turns though.
Even on the drop, it adds durability. You drop 9" away from their front line, and shoot 23" away at their squishy core.
It wont' be an option every game, but it's fairly common that I either have or face an army where the squishy bits are more than 12" away from where I can DS.
Xenomancers wrote: It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.
There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.
The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.
Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.
I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.
You've got:
SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.
Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.
Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.
Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.
Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?
Thinking that DW vets won't get Bolter Drill is pretty short sighted. It's obviously a rule for all of these types and will probably get adjusted quickly. You don't lose thousands of years of experience as soon as you are transferred to a unit in power armour. In fact, not allowing it currently is being a little bit TFG as you are employing a technicality in the keywords to disallow it when the rule doesn't seem to want exceptions (all terminators get it, except this fellow here).
I mean, if you consider me TFG for not taking advantage of a rule I don't get because I don't have the keyword that it applies to, then I guess I'm a TFG. I'm not taking Bolter Drill on my Meganobz either, because they don't have the TERMINATOR keyword.
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Bharring wrote: Even on the drop, it adds durability. You drop 9" away from their front line, and shoot 23" away at their squishy core.
It wont' be an option every game, but it's fairly common that I either have or face an army where the squishy bits are more than 12" away from where I can DS.
Yeah, except that deep striking counts as moving. so you can't use it on the drop, unless you are a Terminator etc.
Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.
One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.
But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.
@techsoldaten - where is the rest of your army?
@KDash - sadly the stratagem affects only 1 weapons so it would be 2 CP to do that.
"Yeah, except that deep striking counts as moving. so you can't use it on the drop, unless you are a Terminator etc."
Because I fail at context.
Yes, in a non-Termie squad, it doesn't help you that turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I keep looking for the downsides of this rule.
I'm starting to think just about the only army it screws over is Swordwind Eldar. With the variety of units in that style army, and their general susceptability to Boltguns mixed with their short range, this lets the Marine player pick their targets much more freely. Which means Swordwind will lose. Who else gets hit hard by this?
(Note: CWE can certainly take this hit and still be top dog.)
grouchoben wrote: What's this all about then eh? Genetically modified massive superhumans who have their guns neurologically wired into their nervous system and spend more hours in a day training with them than everything else in their day combined, vs a militant religious order of humans who like their guns a lot and are pretty good with them?
There's no fluff argument for giving SoB the same rule that I can see...
Except for all the reasons given in the last 18 pages...
PiñaColada wrote: I think he means that since they teleport within 12" they were already in RF range and as such don't really benefit from this new rule. It does give them better flexibility for later turns though.
bingo. The best use case for this for Deathwatch is the turn after they deep strike, if they survive, the models that are left could possibly use it.
That's far less likely in my eyes to the use case for, for example, a competitively-built ultramarine list, where turn 1 I will PROBABLY benefit with a bunch of scout bikers being able to shoot their full amount while remaining in range of a guilliman aura, or a unit of Sternguard with a couple lascannons or Intercessors that can now act like Deathwatch with Stalker Boltguns.
My point is I don't understand the "Deathwatch benefit the MOST from this change" that's being thrown around. Non-DW marines have:
-Biker units that can have storm bolters on every member
-Scouts who alternate-deploy and will probably be able to shoot rapid fire at some chaff turn 1 if they stay still
-playstyles that revolve much more heavily around being in auras tied to slow moving footsloggers like Guilliman/Azrael
-Sternguard whose 30" guns are Rapid Fire 1 instead of Stalker Boltguns which are Heavy 2.
Mmmpi wrote: So, at least three pages were added since I last posted.
Several other people added the source request, and made many of the same fluff arguments as to why Space Marines wouldn't be the only ones to qualify for this, or a similar rule.
If we're going to keep talking about this though, could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.
I haven’t seen any casual sexism here. The worst I’ve noticed is people trying to apply biological differences between men and women to this argument, and that isn’t sexist. It is just useless as we don’t have a game system built for that kind of granularity.
I think the whole Black Carapace argument is much more viable in this scenario. Feeling you weapon in your mind sounds better than someone that just uses a weapon.
A biological difference that had no reason to be brought up.
If you go into a setting that is designed to be fantastical wish-fulfillment, full of things that are completely beyond the pale of reality, and you use some minute biological distinction between males and females to justify the need to limit women in the setting despite ignoring the numerous other hilariously glaring instances of non-realism as features of the narrative setting (such as, why are 95% of the humans depicted in the setting european?) that is a great example of casual sexism.
This is a setting where your regular humans not wearing face masks are allowed to fight the super duper plague faction and all your soldiers don't keel over and vomit their guts out on turn 2 causing you to auto-lose. Because if that realism was applied, it wouldn't work as a game. Your super-soldiers are allowed to drop onto the battlefield at terminal velocity and not get turned to mush in their armor because that's AWESOME, who the feth cares?
Women are allowed to be elite soldiers with higher ballistic skill without someone going "but muh testosterone!"
It's a fantasy setting. Get over it.
Also this.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Diminishing returns or not, someone who practices 13 hours a day and only needs to sleep 4 hours every day is going to get so much more training in than someone who's only human. Plus, you're still assuming that the training is the same kind of training. Why would a transhuman monster who's faster, stronger, and able to process information much faster than a human be training in the same manner as someone who's human?
Sure, Scouts may not be part of every engagement their Chapter faces, but fighting or going to places where there is fighting is all Space Marines do. Marines usually don't do garrison duty except as part of garrisons they know are going to come under attack. Plus, I'm pretty sure they're Scouts for longer than 10 years.
Why wouldn't they be training the same? Because ballistics don't change just because the wielder does.
The way i see this rule and the I think the cause for I’ll feeling from sisters players etc is that it is been discussed as a buff to bolters, or he bolter bets rule. It isn’t. It’s a buff to marines. It’s a marine beta rule that involves bolters but doesn’t change the gun but the person wielding it. I like it. I liked when marines first got rapid fire and was disappointed when it went mainstream.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Diminishing returns or not, someone who practices 13 hours a day and only needs to sleep 4 hours every day is going to get so much more training in than someone who's only human. Plus, you're still assuming that the training is the same kind of training. Why would a transhuman monster who's faster, stronger, and able to process information much faster than a human be training in the same manner as someone who's human?
Sure, Scouts may not be part of every engagement their Chapter faces, but fighting or going to places where there is fighting is all Space Marines do. Marines usually don't do garrison duty except as part of garrisons they know are going to come under attack. Plus, I'm pretty sure they're Scouts for longer than 10 years.
Why wouldn't they be training the same? Because ballistics don't change just because the wielder does.
Because Marines can go through training that would kill an unaugmented human. Space Marines could train under conditions that wouldn't be conductive to Sisters of Battle surviving.
We're making a whole lot of assumptions about training when we have wildly varying details of what those things are, few specifics to compare, and similar backgrounds of extreme hardships with spartan living and mind boggling levels of mental conditioning/indoctrination/etc, in our background universe of wildly dysfunctional dystopia. Either way we're talking about elite troops in power armor with built in targeting equipment wielding bolters after having been trained in unimaginably brutal regimes.
What training may kill a Sister but not a Space Marine is not likely to be terribly relevant to bolter shooting (much like most gene-seed stuff isn't relevant to shooting). In modern shooting, lots of civilians can match or exceed a match score of an active duty veteran soldier with multiple combat tours under their belt. I've seen people beat special forces members in 3 gun competitions handily. The issue is that that a few seconds of time spread on a course of fire is ultimately a secondary concern for the soldier in the grand scheme of things because pulling that trigger is 1/10,000th of their actual job.
In the end, GW wanted a Marine "rule of cool" thing. I think trying to dig in and justify it beyond that is difficult (same way asking why Marines can't FRFSRF), particularly when instead of Sisters we can also turn to Custodes and ask the same fluff questions.
Nevelon wrote: It doesn’t increase the max firepower, but lets you apply it further away. A boon to camping squads.
Bikes will get to project fire on the move, without having to get into rapid fire range. Special weapons will still want to be close, but between their movement and range, they will be able to project fire over a huge amount of the table while staying away from threats. Fits their role as skirmishers.
Terminators will be able to shoot effectively at range, so if they find themselves outside of power-fist charge range, they can still threaten things. The ability to move and project fire was the niche role of the stormbolter in previous editions, for TDA, it is once again.
I think the hurricane bolter arm on my ironclad might get some more use. LRCs and SRs also get a nice boost. Where else can we get them? Centurians, who also get a call out for always on. Will help their tubby slow selves actually be able to shoot stuff.
Camping sternguard with their special issue bolters will enjoy this. Stick them in cover and threaten a 30” radius on the table. Point drop in CA18 with this makes for some nice full gunlines.
--
This is a pretty big slap in the face to all non-rapid fire bolter variants. The heavy bolt rife in particular just had its usefulness cut dramatically. Hopefully they can get adjusted later.
I don’t think this is going to be game breakingly powerful. I normally endeavor to be in rapid fire range anyway for my bolter troops. This just lets us project fire better in the right circumstance.
This nails all the points on the head.
My question is this ... is it worth even giving TDA assault cannons any more? Is the 6 STR 6 shots worth the 22 pts?
Is it better to bring CMLs or just other heavy weapons platforms and have your termies be anti-infantry death machines?
A bare bones PF termie is running 32 points. For something with a 2+/5++, 2W, 4 STR 4, BS3+ shots, it's not so bad for anti-infantry.
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, with respect to the heavy bolt rifle and the heavy plasma fandangler that the hellblasters get...was anyone taking those anyway?
To me, losing half your shots was a dealbreaker, full stop. And then to have that AND be Heavy? Screw that, those are never-take weapons.
The Stalker would at least be forgivable if it had Sniper rules in place. It doesn't though.
I can't think of a way that's meaningful for the Heavy Plasma option without making it that much better than the other options though.
Xenomancers wrote: It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.
There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.
The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.
Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.
I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.
You've got:
SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.
Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.
Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.
Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.
Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?
Humm - maybe you are thinking about the intercessors all wrong. If they don't move they can shoot 36" twice at AP -2. That is a pretty nice buff to a unit that doesn't really like leaving cover - . Or they can just shot twice at 30" with 2+ to wound and ap-1. It's a big deal. For vets - they deep strike in an probably never have to move again to get rapid fire. Plus DW bikes probably just became one of the best units in the entire game. Sure none of these units can kill vehicals but that isn't what DW is for. That is what Castellans are for.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, with respect to the heavy bolt rifle and the heavy plasma fandangler that the hellblasters get...was anyone taking those anyway?
To me, losing half your shots was a dealbreaker, full stop. And then to have that AND be Heavy? Screw that, those are never-take weapons.
Agreed - there is little reason to ever take it. Personally I think it should be D2 standard and D3 overcharged. That would make it an actual choice. More damage turn 1? or more damage turn 2? One benefit is it is not heavy in a DW kill team.
Mentioned this in some of the other threads, but figured I would add it here as well. Perhaps it would be better if the rule just added 1 to the number of shots of bolt weapon profiles if one of the three conditions are met. That would allow it to buff the non Rapid Fire bolt weapons as well while also still encouraging forward movement over camping.
Xenomancers wrote: It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.
There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.
The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.
Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.
I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.
You've got:
SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.
Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.
Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.
Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.
Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?
Humm - maybe you are thinking about the intercessors all wrong. If they don't move they can shoot 36" twice at AP -2. That is a pretty nice buff to a unit that doesn't really like leaving cover - . Or they can just shot twice at 30" with 2+ to wound and ap-1. It's a big deal. For vets - they deep strike in an probably never have to move again to get rapid fire. Plus DW bikes probably just became one of the best units in the entire game. Sure none of these units can kill vehicals but that isn't what DW is for. That is what Castellans are for.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, with respect to the heavy bolt rifle and the heavy plasma fandangler that the hellblasters get...was anyone taking those anyway?
To me, losing half your shots was a dealbreaker, full stop. And then to have that AND be Heavy? Screw that, those are never-take weapons.
Agreed - there is little reason to ever take it. Personally I think it should be D2 standard and D3 overcharged. That would make it an actual choice. More damage turn 1? or more damage turn 2? One benefit is it is not heavy in a DW kill team.
A DW biker with his 2+ ammo kills .008 more guardsmen for the points than a company vet biker with SS/SB. The company vet biker has 3++, and his choice of many much better chapter tactics than mission tactics.
I'll definitely grant you that Deathwatch intercessors on their own benefit from the rule. But I'm not convinced they're actually good, compared to the alternative, which is Stalker Bolt Rifle/Storm Shield vets. I can stick terminator tankers in that squad, I can hide missile launchers, I get 3++, and they cost less than intercessors.
Sure, the vets do not HAVE to move again after they drop in the first turn. But what does that...actually get you? If I drop in with my vets and survive, it means my alpha strike probably did really well. Why would I not want to move them forward to continue to mop up?
Like I said: I see some marginal benefits to this rule if you're looking at the deathwatch units that actually see play. The deathwatch units that aren't seeing play (and I am guessing won't suddenly start seeing play, because there are still MAJOR benefits to running them in other configurations) see the biggest buffs here. Terminators. Intercessors not being used to tank for hellblasters. Land Raider Crusaders. Bikers in dedicated bike squads and not obsec combat squads with vanvets.
but it doesn't seem to "make the rich richer" very much. Your actual competitive deathwatch units only occasionally will be using this rule, and usually it'll either be marginal (like if I lost most of my vets in my opponents turn and I get to rapid fire with 2-3 that remain) or it'll be a thing that makes me win more in a situation I'd already be winning (all my vets survive).
Did anyone think about DA? I see them as big winners with this change. They have a trait which already made them standing still, now they are better at what they already did well. DA intercessors can MSU quite well and place on objectives. They are durable in cover, shoot at full range and reroll 1's. They are a good troop choice.
novembermike wrote: I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.
Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.
I don't think it makes sense for Sisters to get Bolter Discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff - Sisters are normal humans with power armor. Space Marines are genetically augmented super soldiers with biomechanical enhancements tailored to improve their tactical efficiency. It makes sense all that engineering would result in a soldier who's handier with their basic armament.
2) Rules - Sisters have their own special mechanics, like Acts of Faith. It makes sense to differentiate between the armies to give each a unique flavor.
3) Points - Sisters are 9 points, Tacticals are 13 points. You can field a lot more Sisters than you can Space Marines. Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline technically nerfs Tacticals, while this rule seems to be aimed at improving the situation for Tacticals (and terminators, and bikes, etc.) It makes sense to focus on Space Marines given their current challenges on the tabletop.
4) It's Not About the Gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not Better Bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordinary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lot of enthusiasm for Sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sisters are pretty tough as-is and I'm not sure I see the deficiency that makes it necessary to tinker with their rules too much.
I think it makes sence for sisters to get bolter discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff- Sisters train hours a day using the weapon, which can be used by unaugmented humans with no issues. Sisters infact specialize in it's use.
2) Rules- Space Marines already have better stats, it makes sense that units with similar weapons training would have similar rules.
3) Points- Sisters are 9 points, for that they have a lower leadership, lower strength, lower toughness, and lower WS. The difference in points isn't enough to offset that difference in durability from T4 alone in the use of small arms. Giving sisters bolter disicpline technically buffs sisters to tac marine levels with small arms fire, and vehicles.
4)It's not about the gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not better bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters shooting is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordianary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces, like the ones that consider it's use a literal sacred task.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lack of understanding of sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sister's recent beta heavily nerfed the army, and this rule makes their long range objective holding and vehicles more on par with the rest of the game, particularly imperial units.
While I matched your format, and much of your writing style, all of my points are legitimate reasons why this could be applied to sisters, sisters (silence) and custodies. Granted #3 is a bit of a stretch.
What a clever retort. Thank you for pointing out how you matched my format and writing style, I knew something awesome was happening on but couldn't put my finger on it. Your ability to repeat what others say - but with a twist! - is just incredible.
But I disagree with the idea there are legitimate reasons for applying Bolter Discipline to Sisters. You have presented no arguments to that effect and the responses I've seen from you in this thread are a mix of inaccuracies and talking over other people. Rearranging some words and inserting some pith doesn't say anything unless you also have an intelligent point to make.
Your arguments in all these incredibly clever posts seems to be founded on the idea that spending a lot of time training is somehow on par with genetic engineering, cybernetic augmentation, internal targeting systems, psycho-indoctrination, and all the other stuff that goes into making a Marine.
In response:
1) You have a very unrealistic view of the role of training. Train all they want, a Sister is never going to be at the level of a standard Marine. Training allows one to achieve their physical / mental peak, not to go beyond. In fact, there's plenty of research to show that constant training in any discipline is counterproductive, to sustain any level of tactical effectiveness Sisters would need to engage in a other activities. For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills. So your claim that Sisters spend an exceptional amount of time training on this specific weapon probably means something other than what you think it means, it certainly does not imply they should possess a mastery at the level of someone who was engineered and enhanced to fire it, who is also at his peak.
2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
3) The statline differences mean very little when you are talking about a rule that makes a free weapon more effective. Trying to buff Sisters to Tactical Marine levels is stupid, they are supposed to be different. Are you actually being serious when you say that?
4) I'm not sure what this 'sacred' gibberish has to do with improved mastery of a weapon. What is that proof of, besides the fact you want other people to accept your point uncritically? Is it supposed to be the Emperor squeezing off an extra round for all his wives every time he sends them into battle? If so, why would he favor them over his other subjects, like Guard, who can also have Bolters and whom he certainly loves just as much? Explain your point, don't just use magic space God words and expect everyone to just say OK.
Xenomancers wrote: It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.
There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.
The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.
Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.
I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.
You've got:
SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.
Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.
Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.
Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.
Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?
Humm - maybe you are thinking about the intercessors all wrong. If they don't move they can shoot 36" twice at AP -2. That is a pretty nice buff to a unit that doesn't really like leaving cover - . Or they can just shot twice at 30" with 2+ to wound and ap-1. It's a big deal. For vets - they deep strike in an probably never have to move again to get rapid fire. Plus DW bikes probably just became one of the best units in the entire game. Sure none of these units can kill vehicals but that isn't what DW is for. That is what Castellans are for.
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the_scotsman wrote: I mean, with respect to the heavy bolt rifle and the heavy plasma fandangler that the hellblasters get...was anyone taking those anyway?
To me, losing half your shots was a dealbreaker, full stop. And then to have that AND be Heavy? Screw that, those are never-take weapons.
Agreed - there is little reason to ever take it. Personally I think it should be D2 standard and D3 overcharged. That would make it an actual choice. More damage turn 1? or more damage turn 2? One benefit is it is not heavy in a DW kill team.
A DW biker with his 2+ ammo kills .008 more guardsmen for the points than a company vet biker with SS/SB. The company vet biker has 3++, and his choice of many much better chapter tactics than mission tactics.
I'll definitely grant you that Deathwatch intercessors on their own benefit from the rule. But I'm not convinced they're actually good, compared to the alternative, which is Stalker Bolt Rifle/Storm Shield vets. I can stick terminator tankers in that squad, I can hide missile launchers, I get 3++, and they cost less than intercessors.
Sure, the vets do not HAVE to move again after they drop in the first turn. But what does that...actually get you? If I drop in with my vets and survive, it means my alpha strike probably did really well. Why would I not want to move them forward to continue to mop up?
Like I said: I see some marginal benefits to this rule if you're looking at the deathwatch units that actually see play. The deathwatch units that aren't seeing play (and I am guessing won't suddenly start seeing play, because there are still MAJOR benefits to running them in other configurations) see the biggest buffs here. Terminators. Intercessors not being used to tank for hellblasters. Land Raider Crusaders. Bikers in dedicated bike squads and not obsec combat squads with vanvets.
but it doesn't seem to "make the rich richer" very much. Your actual competitive deathwatch units only occasionally will be using this rule, and usually it'll either be marginal (like if I lost most of my vets in my opponents turn and I get to rapid fire with 2-3 that remain) or it'll be a thing that makes me win more in a situation I'd already be winning (all my vets survive).
It's not just that they only kill .08 Infantry more. Did you look at other targets?
They also have a Chainsword for 3 total attacks for what it's worth. Not a lot, but still. They can also fall back and charge again. Once again that's niche though.
To give historical context: Main Rulebook, 40K 2nd Edition. 1993.
As for the Marines vs. Sisters debate, Marine Rhinos with Storm Bolters shoot better than Sisters Rhinos with Storm Bolters now. That probably has nothing to do with training. I'd argue that Marines have better equipment than Sisters though, and a piece of game relevant data to back up that claim is the fact that in 2nd edition, all Marine Heavy Weapons came with a targeter for +1 to hit. Sisters Heavy Weapons did not. So, imo, there's ample room to just wave it away. It is what it is.
Why wouldn't they be training the same? Because ballistics don't change just because the wielder does.
But it does. Marines are able to use their bolters one handed or shot as good from the hip as any other position. Only thing better is super rare assasin gear that gives some of them both a 360 field of vision, and the change to brain chemistry that they do not get overhelmed by the shoting. And this is just one thing. A marine can shot while being under fire, and they survive incoming fire better then any human male or not in power armor. If there were man in power armor, then SM would be shoting better then them too. A human in power armor just can't do some stuff marines can, and this is before we get in to different version of power armors and bolters.
For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills
you mixing up veterans with spec ops. Veterans are veterans, because they trained and because they were in combat. They act like machines and don't get shell shocked as easier. They react to danger faster, because they expiriance stuff etc.
A biological difference that had no reason to be brought up.
Why? Just check modern military studies on units with mixed squads and companies, their loses and efficiency at completing assigned tasks. In case of marines and SoB the differences would be even bigger, because we aren't comparing human to human. But a human to super human. If you take a normal human male or female in power armor, and he gets hit by the same type of projectile they may still suffer internal injuries or at least shock, at the same time marines, and even more in the case of primaris would not be effected as much or even at all. This means they can utilise tactics unmodifed troops can not use. Plus non marine power armor, which may have the same save in game, does not have systems in the w40k world. The marine armor is just superior, specially the primaris armor.
That probably has nothing to do with trainin
It is less training, but more the fact that a marine driver is jacked in to the systems of his vehicle. That is a bit like someone having a WWII tank fighting someone a tank from the 70s. Am not saying that driving and shoting for 100-200years doesn't have influence on a drivers ability use the vehicles arment though.
Why wouldn't they be training the same? Because ballistics don't change just because the wielder does.
But it does. Marines are able to use their bolters one handed or shot as good from the hip as any other position. Only thing better is super rare assasin gear that gives some of them both a 360 field of vision, and the change to brain chemistry that they do not get overhelmed by the shoting. And this is just one thing. A marine can shot while being under fire, and they survive incoming fire better then any human male or not in power armor. If there were man in power armor, then SM would be shoting better then them too. A human in power armor just can't do some stuff marines can, and this is before we get in to different version of power armors and bolters.
For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills
you mixing up veterans with spec ops. Veterans are veterans, because they trained and because they were in combat. They act like machines and don't get shell shocked as easier. They react to danger faster, because they expiriance stuff etc.
A biological difference that had no reason to be brought up.
Why? Just check modern military studies on units with mixed squads and companies, their loses and efficiency at completing assigned tasks. In case of marines and SoB the differences would be even bigger, because we aren't comparing human to human. But a human to super human. If you take a normal human male or female in power armor, and he gets hit by the same type of projectile they may still suffer internal injuries or at least shock, at the same time marines, and even more in the case of primaris would not be effected as much or even at all. This means they can utilise tactics unmodifed troops can not use. Plus non marine power armor, which may have the same save in game, does not have systems in the w40k world. The marine armor is just superior, specially the primaris armor.
Just don't. As you say, we're comparing humans to super humans, so gender shouldn't even be a factor. Best to leave it alone.
Until we get female space marines, and who knows maybe we will, It will be a factor. Now an interesting thing to compare would be something like cardinal guard or inquisitorial acylotes vs SoB. But I doubt there is much data on the augmentation levels of the later. It is known that SoB are on the same level of marksman ship as cadian veterans, but it was pre cadia fluff, so who knows maybe it got retconed.
It is less training, but more the fact that a marine driver is jacked in to the systems of his vehicle. That is a bit like someone having a WWII tank fighting someone a tank from the 70s. Am not saying that driving and shoting for 100-200years doesn't have influence on a drivers ability use the vehicles arment though.
If you REALLY want to nerd about it, I'll tell you that both factions have auto-senses, and auto-senses bypass the eye and optical nerve and go straight to the brain. And vehicles of both factions have auto-senses.
It's not just that they only kill .08 Infantry more. Did you look at other targets?
They also have a Chainsword for 3 total attacks for what it's worth. Not a lot, but still. They can also fall back and charge again. Once again that's niche though.
They maintain the same ratio against any target where the deathwatch biker's damage is only better by 1 shift, and the deathwatch biker does 1.18x the damage against any target his weapons get 2 shifts against (say, wounding on a 2 where the regular bolter would wound on a 5, or gaining benefit from both points of AP on the AP-2 ammo).
They also have chainswords, and can fall back and charge. Interesting that you'd want to willingly give up shooting on a unit that puts out that much dakka though.
I think you'll find the increase in offense is marginal when compared to the fact that other space marine chapter options have access to:
-Reroll to hit bubbles that move faster than 6"
-Reroll to wound bubbles
-Chapter tactics that enable them to fall back and shoot
-Guilliman
Also, pretty much all those benefits evaporate when you're looking at W2 UNIT WITH STORM SHIELD vs W2 UNIT WITH NO STORM SHIELD.
I'm not buying Deathwatch bikers in dedicated units being all that when any other thread where any time Terminators Intercessors Bikers Scout Bikers Hellblasters Aggressors Centurions.....you know the drill, gets brought up, you turn up in five seconds flat with "but all those units are trash because muh disintegrators". A disintegrator kills 22 points of deathwatch bikers, and 10 points of company vet bikers.
Karol wrote: Until we get female space marines, and who knows maybe we will, It will be a factor.
That doesn't make sense. The point is, the difference between any space marine and any human is suitably large that any differences in gender pale in comparison to the difference between a human and post-human.
Not to mention the game itself doesn't have the granularity of detail to care. A weedy 5'4" cadian male has strength 3, a 6'6" roided cadian male has strength 3. We're painting in real broad strokes here.
Now I know one should never trust a wiki, but this is what it says about power armor used by SoB :
However, the Sisters of Battle and Inquisitors who use Power Armour do not possess the Black Carapace gene-seed organ implant, and so cannot be directly linked to the suit's advanced movement enhancement and fire control systems in the way Space Marines are, which decreases the armour's effectiveness.
And this is just the armor. A SoB hit by a bolter or hvy bolter round is not going to stand unmoving and shot, a marine will. Am talking here about field use of people here, not how good or bad someone can shot at the firing range. Am also going through an avarge. But I bet that if you compared the best shot marine ever had to the best shot non marine humans ever had you would end up with an assasin or someone gene breed to do it and not an unaugmented human as his counter part.
Not to mention the game itself doesn't have the granularity of detail to care. A weedy 5'4" cadian male has strength 3, a 6'6" roided cadian male has strength 3. We're painting in real broad strokes here.
yes I do know that a catachan can move faster then a jet plain and fight harder then a space marine, making Rambo seem plausible and realistic. But from what I understand the thread exists, because people want the bolter drill rule for bolter armed units that are not marines. From the rule description I draw the argument that marines have enough traits specific to them, that such a rule being marine exclusive makes sense. I used the male vs female example in the real world only to enhance the gap between marines and SoB, not to make it smaller. yet somehow this is viewed as a non valid argument, because of this being a non realistic setting.
Was gonna comment on the original topic of the thread, but then I saw how the thread devolved. Jesus Christ on the Pogo Stick, this is why I rarely post on dakka any more.
Anyway. Glad my tactical termies are gonna be better. They should apply the rule to sisters and guard, too.
Karol wrote: Now I know one should never trust a wiki, but this is what it says about power armor used by SoB :
However, the Sisters of Battle and Inquisitors who use Power Armour do not possess the Black Carapace gene-seed organ implant, and so cannot be directly linked to the suit's advanced movement enhancement and fire control systems in the way Space Marines are, which decreases the armour's effectiveness.
And this is just the armor. A SoB hit by a bolter or hvy bolter round is not going to stand unmoving and shot, a marine will. Am talking here about field use of people here, not how good or bad someone can shot at the firing range. Am also going through an avarge. But I bet that if you compared the best shot marine ever had to the best shot non marine humans ever had you would end up with an assasin or someone gene breed to do it and not an unaugmented human as his counter part.
That an avarge marine can have more possible traits, and has better weapons and armor then SoB, which makes them better shots, bar the "magic" counter argument. The only thing that can be comperable to a space marine as far as shoting goes, is an assasin or some gene breed sniper, and sob are neither of those. There for SoB being excludes from having the drill rule has valid arguments in its favour.
Has anyone had a chance to try out terminators with these new rules yet? I'm sure they won't become great or anything but in combination with the CA point drops they might not feel like a hindrance to your list anymore
PiñaColada wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out terminators with these new rules yet? I'm sure they won't become great or anything but in combination with the CA point drops they might not feel like a hindrance to your list anymore
Not yet, but I'll see if I can try it out with my BA tacti-terms this weekend.
Karol wrote: That an avarge marine can have more possible traits, and has better weapons and armor then SoB, which makes them better shots, bar the "magic" counter argument. The only thing that can be comperable to a space marine as far as shoting goes, is an assasin or some gene breed sniper, and sob are neither of those. There for SoB being excludes from having the drill rule has valid arguments in its favour.
a) the extensive pages of fluff arguments over a rule which is clearly intended solely to improve SM and their heretical counterparts, presumably for balance/sales purposes, not because of any kind of fluff.
OR
b) for all the talk of how much training x unit does, the knowledge that back in the real world it's been shown beyond reasonable doubt that beyond about 100 yards your shooting ability on a range has absolutely no impact on your actual shooting ability under combat conditions (i.e. everyone pretty much sucks beyond that point).
Sure, in one sentence: "Marine fluff is propaganda designed to inspire awe in imperial citizens and fear in their enemies."
I'd also add that I think tabletop doesn't represent your "standard" marine tactics to begin with-- tabletop depicts marines as your basic bog-standard footsoldier, but lore does not, even your average tactical would not typically be deployed as a basic army grunt in the lore. That's what Guard are for.
a) the extensive pages of fluff arguments over a rule which is clearly intended solely to improve SM and their heretical counterparts, presumably for balance/sales purposes, not because of any kind of fluff.
OR
b) for all the talk of how much training x unit does, the knowledge that back in the real world it's been shown beyond reasonable doubt that beyond about 100 yards your shooting ability on a range has absolutely no impact on your actual shooting ability under combat conditions (i.e. everyone pretty much sucks beyond that point).
You forgot
c) the whizzing sound the fact that the rule not applying to CUSTODES made when it went straight over everybody's head making an argument about whether Sisters and Guard should get the rule and are sisters trained enough to use boltguns as good as the menfolk.
There is a faction WHOSE ENTIRE FLUFF, and basically whose only fluff at this point because they make flat Stanley look deep, is that they're space marines but not because they're more betterer.
And they didn't get the bolter rule.
It's a rule made for game balance, not fluff. If you needed any proof of that, there you go. They even specifically say that the guy who has a Guardian spear who is NOT a custode gets the rule that custodes dont get.
Marmatag wrote: I still can't fathom why people would bring fluff into an argument about rules.
Can you justify the way marines perform on the table given their fluff? I'd love to see the mental gymnastics that go into that argument.
The fluff for how strong Marines really are is all over the place though Especially Black Library.
Honestly, if you could play Marines (both loyal and heretic) to their fluff strengths in a fully narrative way, you would win most games over a hyper realistic campaign system (barring terrible luck/carefully laid traps/maybe Eldar or Necrons), because every game would be the Marines going "I want to attack here" where there is an important location with lower defences, hit it with a massive orbital strike and drop pod in 3000 points to crush 500 points of shell-shocked Cultists and a comms station. Then the lot of them would be out of there before the nearest HQ has even worked out what has happened.
That is how Marines operate in the fluff. By-and-large, they bring their nearly unparalleled strategic mobility to bear to gain huge local superiority on a strategic target. Only those races with equivalent strategic mobility (Eldar of all stripes and Necrons) have a chance of responding to these attacks rapidly enough to counter them. Everyone else has to be really cunning/have enormous armies to block it.
This conveniently ignores the whole wonky widely-variable individual Marine power levels in the fluff. It also makes for a generally gak game when the forces are so heavily unbalanced.
Therefore, our 40k games all represent the tiny handful of crucial battles where the forces are equal at that specific location. That means at least one of the forces involved has fethed up already and/or is really desperate. Yeah, Marines currently suck in those battles, but they hardly ever fight them. We really don't see the primary strengths of Marines on the tabletop- strategic mobility and immense orbital artillery. It would be fluffy for half the points of a Marine force to be massive orbital bombardment though
Melissia wrote: Was gonna comment on the original topic of the thread, but then I saw how the thread devolved. Jesus Christ on the Pogo Stick, this is why I rarely post on dakka any more.
Anyway. Glad my tactical termies are gonna be better. They should apply the rule to sisters and guard, too.
This does practically nothing for tactical marines.
PiñaColada wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out terminators with these new rules yet? I'm sure they won't become great or anything but in combination with the CA point drops they might not feel like a hindrance to your list anymore
have you found great success deep striking terms into possition and firing 20 storm bolter shots? It will be about that effective.
Marmatag wrote: I still can't fathom why people would bring fluff into an argument about rules.
This was my thought throughout the thread.
Well you are looking at it the wrong way. Power should reflect points - not fluff. Fluff however should reflect what rules are in place...Kind of like Rubric get rules that make them tougher because they are hard to kill. Marines should get rules that make them shoot better because they are genetically modified super humans. Meaning they should outperform normal humans even if they are well trained. It's really not hard to grasp.
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Melissia wrote: I have, actually. Nobody expects terminators. I mean, seriously they don't. Everyone either overestimates or underestimates termies.
Whats to overestimate? They deal less damage than tactical marines per point (that is kind of a milestone for how trashy a unit can be) and they have somewhat decent close combat ability which is mired by the fact they are one of the slowest units in the game. I feel bad slaughtering terms with relative ease. Now - custodians - those are decent. However - they are also really expensive by comparison.
PiñaColada wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out terminators with these new rules yet? I'm sure they won't become great or anything but in combination with the CA point drops they might not feel like a hindrance to your list anymore
have you found great success deep striking terms into possition and firing 20 storm bolter shots? It will be about that effective.
No I haven't, but with the new rules you can rapid fire into something other than what you're charging. And better flexibility for shooting targets T3 and onward. As I said, I doubt they'll be great but man I hope someone finds a way to make them work
But to answer your question: Assault Terminators are quite easy to use to bully more timid players, because they hit hard and can be relatively hard to put down.
But to answer your question: Assault Terminators are quite easy to use to bully more timid players, because they hit hard and can be relatively hard to put down.
Assault Terminators seem to be one of the few standard-marine anti-Knight units if you can deliver them. That in itself makes them more interesting these days.
Assault Terminators seem to be one of the few standard-marine anti-Knight units if you can deliver them. That in itself makes them more interesting these days.
All you need is one captn slamguinius to take down a knight. He is a lot better than assault termis when it comes to take out a knight.
Assault Terminators seem to be one of the few standard-marine anti-Knight units if you can deliver them. That in itself makes them more interesting these days.
All you need is one captn slamguinius to take down a knight. He is a lot better than assault termis when it comes to take out a knight.
Costs less and can actaully do his job compared to assault termies.
PiñaColada wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out terminators with these new rules yet? I'm sure they won't become great or anything but in combination with the CA point drops they might not feel like a hindrance to your list anymore
Not yet but I am tempted by the idea of Space Wolf termies with Storm Shield and storm bolter. For 135 points (post CA18) you get 10 wounds behind a 2+/3++ save that can deep strike onto an objective and kick out 20 shots a turn up to 24". Sure their offense isn't massive but your opponent will struggle to find anything that will shift them for 135 points.
I am tempted to call this the curry sauce squad. Because once it's on the table you can't get rid of it.
novembermike wrote: I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.
Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.
I don't think it makes sense for Sisters to get Bolter Discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff - Sisters are normal humans with power armor. Space Marines are genetically augmented super soldiers with biomechanical enhancements tailored to improve their tactical efficiency. It makes sense all that engineering would result in a soldier who's handier with their basic armament.
2) Rules - Sisters have their own special mechanics, like Acts of Faith. It makes sense to differentiate between the armies to give each a unique flavor.
3) Points - Sisters are 9 points, Tacticals are 13 points. You can field a lot more Sisters than you can Space Marines. Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline technically nerfs Tacticals, while this rule seems to be aimed at improving the situation for Tacticals (and terminators, and bikes, etc.) It makes sense to focus on Space Marines given their current challenges on the tabletop.
4) It's Not About the Gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not Better Bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordinary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lot of enthusiasm for Sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sisters are pretty tough as-is and I'm not sure I see the deficiency that makes it necessary to tinker with their rules too much.
I think it makes sence for sisters to get bolter discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff- Sisters train hours a day using the weapon, which can be used by unaugmented humans with no issues. Sisters infact specialize in it's use.
2) Rules- Space Marines already have better stats, it makes sense that units with similar weapons training would have similar rules.
3) Points- Sisters are 9 points, for that they have a lower leadership, lower strength, lower toughness, and lower WS. The difference in points isn't enough to offset that difference in durability from T4 alone in the use of small arms. Giving sisters bolter disicpline technically buffs sisters to tac marine levels with small arms fire, and vehicles.
4)It's not about the gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not better bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters shooting is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordianary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces, like the ones that consider it's use a literal sacred task.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lack of understanding of sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sister's recent beta heavily nerfed the army, and this rule makes their long range objective holding and vehicles more on par with the rest of the game, particularly imperial units.
While I matched your format, and much of your writing style, all of my points are legitimate reasons why this could be applied to sisters, sisters (silence) and custodies. Granted #3 is a bit of a stretch.
What a clever retort. Thank you for pointing out how you matched my format and writing style, I knew something awesome was happening on but couldn't put my finger on it. Your ability to repeat what others say - but with a twist! - is just incredible.
But I disagree with the idea there are legitimate reasons for applying Bolter Discipline to Sisters. You have presented no arguments to that effect and the responses I've seen from you in this thread are a mix of inaccuracies and talking over other people. Rearranging some words and inserting some pith doesn't say anything unless you also have an intelligent point to make.
Your arguments in all these incredibly clever posts seems to be founded on the idea that spending a lot of time training is somehow on par with genetic engineering, cybernetic augmentation, internal targeting systems, psycho-indoctrination, and all the other stuff that goes into making a Marine.
In response:
1) You have a very unrealistic view of the role of training. Train all they want, a Sister is never going to be at the level of a standard Marine. Training allows one to achieve their physical / mental peak, not to go beyond. In fact, there's plenty of research to show that constant training in any discipline is counterproductive, to sustain any level of tactical effectiveness Sisters would need to engage in a other activities. For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills. So your claim that Sisters spend an exceptional amount of time training on this specific weapon probably means something other than what you think it means, it certainly does not imply they should possess a mastery at the level of someone who was engineered and enhanced to fire it, who is also at his peak.
2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
3) The statline differences mean very little when you are talking about a rule that makes a free weapon more effective. Trying to buff Sisters to Tactical Marine levels is stupid, they are supposed to be different. Are you actually being serious when you say that?
4) I'm not sure what this 'sacred' gibberish has to do with improved mastery of a weapon. What is that proof of, besides the fact you want other people to accept your point uncritically? Is it supposed to be the Emperor squeezing off an extra round for all his wives every time he sends them into battle? If so, why would he favor them over his other subjects, like Guard, who can also have Bolters and whom he certainly loves just as much? Explain your point, don't just use magic space God words and expect everyone to just say OK.
Glad you thought it was clever. I thought it was overused, and trite. Perfect for a post of the caliber it was responding to.
Of course you disagree. You love your Space Mary Sues.
But of course, I did present arguments that validate my point. Several other people have as well.
No, my argument is founded on the idea that when it comes to bolter training a sister is on par with a space marine. When it comes to every other weapon, with perhaps the flamer and meltagun being exceptions, the marine is far better. Same with tactics. A marine is far more knowledgeable about squad based tactics, to the degree that it's possible to be better. There is a functional upper limit to skills after all. Unlike a sister a marine has a breadth of training at the same level that a sister has with one skill. As far as training is concerned, that's the benefit of being a supertough genetic cyberman who doesn't sleep.
Response to responses:
I actually do have a realistic view. I'm saying in a few relevant skills, ones that have nothing to do with being superstrong, or super tough, or having a genius level intellect, there's no reason an unaugmented human can't match them. Shooting is one of those skills. Super reflexes would only help with snap shots, and the rule does nothing for overwatch, or firing on the advance. Now, a marine would learn those shooting skills quicker, but they're also again, sacrificing 'depth' for a wider range of skills. In this case, depth being learning said skills quickly, in favor of learning several at a time.
Says the person who didn't have their codex ripped in half a month ago. I get it that super competative players are unhappy with marines. I'm also under no illusion that Sister, or Sister will get the rule. I'm saying that fluff justifies them getting it. Custodies however, should have it, or something like it. Literally every argument you made applies to them.
At what point did I say Sisters should be the same as marines? I said you can justify giving them a rule that lets them shoot bolters better. For their points, they're still over costed, just not a badly as marines are. It's like you read my posts until I say 'sister' and then just post a rely to that.
It means they have a motivation to put an emphasis on high level training with the weapon. They see having skill with the weapon as being highly important, and devote time to it's use. AKA, Less "Ok, it's three o'clock, time to hit the range, then the showers", and more "It's time for the daily bolter fire drills, Sister Lucile, your marksmanship was poor yesterday, did you spend any extra time training in penance?" "Yes Sister superior, eight hours".
Why wouldn't they be training the same? Because ballistics don't change just because the wielder does.
But it does. Marines are able to use their bolters one handed or shot as good from the hip as any other position. Only thing better is super rare assasin gear that gives some of them both a 360 field of vision, and the change to brain chemistry that they do not get overhelmed by the shoting. And this is just one thing. A marine can shot while being under fire, and they survive incoming fire better then any human male or not in power armor. If there were man in power armor, then SM would be shoting better then them too. A human in power armor just can't do some stuff marines can, and this is before we get in to different version of power armors and bolters.
For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills
you mixing up veterans with spec ops. Veterans are veterans, because they trained and because they were in combat. They act like machines and don't get shell shocked as easier. They react to danger faster, because they expiriance stuff etc.
A biological difference that had no reason to be brought up.
Why? Just check modern military studies on units with mixed squads and companies, their loses and efficiency at completing assigned tasks. In case of marines and SoB the differences would be even bigger, because we aren't comparing human to human. But a human to super human. If you take a normal human male or female in power armor, and he gets hit by the same type of projectile they may still suffer internal injuries or at least shock, at the same time marines, and even more in the case of primaris would not be effected as much or even at all. This means they can utilise tactics unmodifed troops can not use. Plus non marine power armor, which may have the same save in game, does not have systems in the w40k world. The marine armor is just superior, specially the primaris armor.
That probably has nothing to do with trainin
It is less training, but more the fact that a marine driver is jacked in to the systems of his vehicle. That is a bit like someone having a WWII tank fighting someone a tank from the 70s. Am not saying that driving and shoting for 100-200years doesn't have influence on a drivers ability use the vehicles arment though.
Then give them rules that let them use bolters one handed. Spacewolves used to actually. Let marines fire their bolters like pistols in CC. A sister can fire her bolter while under fire. Same with a guardsmen with their lasgun. It's one of the things they teach in basic training. Why did you put an emphasis on human male, rather than human? I'm pretty sure a bolt round is pretty good at killing both human and genetic superman alike, if not for the suit of powerarmor...which sisters also get. Which is also less relevant to shooting skills anyway.
Special ops tend to be veterans Karol. And both guard and sisters have veterans. Considering Scholora Training, ST, Commisars, and Sisters come out of training on par with scouts skill wise. (Not Space wolf scouts).
None of your third paragraph has anything to do with shooting.
Again, not sure how this is relevant to the use of a bolter, in regards to vehicle operation. If you're talking about use of the pintle weapons, it would depend. If the marine has armor/vehicle connectors and the sister doesn't then the marine would be better while using the remote operated pintles. If they both have it, the would be the same. When it comes to climbing out to fire it, they would be the same.
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Karol wrote: Now I know one should never trust a wiki, but this is what it says about power armor used by SoB :
However, the Sisters of Battle and Inquisitors who use Power Armour do not possess the Black Carapace gene-seed organ implant, and so cannot be directly linked to the suit's advanced movement enhancement and fire control systems in the way Space Marines are, which decreases the armour's effectiveness.
And this is just the armor. A SoB hit by a bolter or hvy bolter round is not going to stand unmoving and shot, a marine will. Am talking here about field use of people here, not how good or bad someone can shot at the firing range. Am also going through an avarge. But I bet that if you compared the best shot marine ever had to the best shot non marine humans ever had you would end up with an assasin or someone gene breed to do it and not an unaugmented human as his counter part.
Not to mention the game itself doesn't have the granularity of detail to care. A weedy 5'4" cadian male has strength 3, a 6'6" roided cadian male has strength 3. We're painting in real broad strokes here.
yes I do know that a catachan can move faster then a jet plain and fight harder then a space marine, making Rambo seem plausible and realistic. But from what I understand the thread exists, because people want the bolter drill rule for bolter armed units that are not marines. From the rule description I draw the argument that marines have enough traits specific to them, that such a rule being marine exclusive makes sense. I used the male vs female example in the real world only to enhance the gap between marines and SoB, not to make it smaller. yet somehow this is viewed as a non valid argument, because of this being a non realistic setting.
Religious Zeal is one hell of a drug. So is adrenaline. If the armor stops the round, and sisters armor give just as much protection as marine armor. Then yeah. She can take the fire a marine can. Once it gets through said armor, it's another story. As for skill, sisters run field drills. So do IG. Why are you randomly assuming a premier combat unit doesn't? I also want to point out, sisters, stormtroopers, and other Scholora kids start their training as pre-teens.
Yes. That would be nice. Not expecting it...because GW. But there is relevant background material for including it with a few other armies, and not just the eight that got it. You used the male - female example because you're so awash with casual sexism that you don't even know you're doing it.
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Karol wrote: That an avarge marine can have more possible traits, and has better weapons and armor then SoB, which makes them better shots, bar the "magic" counter argument. The only thing that can be comperable to a space marine as far as shoting goes, is an assasin or some gene breed sniper, and sob are neither of those. There for SoB being excludes from having the drill rule has valid arguments in its favour.
A marines armor is better in that it's better in extremely hostile environments, such as acid seas, and liquid methane covered exo-planets. It's also more responsive because it's tied directly into the marine's nervous system, rather than having to sense the wearer's motion before moving. For the latter however, most humans don't have the reaction speed to make full use of the black carapace style connection. A sister is good with her armor because she trains with it until it's like a 2nd skin, vs a marine's armor becomes his skin. Both augment speed and agility. It's cannon that a sister can jump 20ish meters in her armor from a stand still. Marines do the same. They offer the same protection against incoming fire as marine armor does as well. That's also cannon.
Assault Terminators seem to be one of the few standard-marine anti-Knight units if you can deliver them. That in itself makes them more interesting these days.
All you need is one captn slamguinius to take down a knight. He is a lot better than assault termis when it comes to take out a knight.
But a lot less tough. Also the BA smashCaptains are not what I think of as standard marines. What I mean by "Standard Marines" is more or less either units in the Space Marine codex, or units available to marine chapters of all (non GK) flavors. He's a very particular build.
I don't use named characters regardless as a general rule, unless I literally ahve no other choice (see: Sisters of Battle and Celestine, since Sisters effectively only have like one non-named character for HQ slots), regardless. But my BA captain is a hammerbro! In terminator armor.
Religion and guns typically go together.
aaaannnyyywwwaaayyyy...
