All Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes models gain this ability. Instead of following the normal rules for Rapid Fire weapons, Rapid fire bolt weapons used by models with this ability make double the number of attacks if any of the following apply:
The firing model's target is within half the weapon's maximum range.
The firing model remained stationary during its previous Movement phase.
The firing model is a Terminator, Biker ????, Centurion or Vehicle.
This is a real buff to GK, especially to terminators. Now living a strike squad at a midfield objective is not automatically shooting yourself in a leg.
GK terminators are now way better as objective holders too.
Hmmm. This does seem to buff the strongest more than the weakest in my opinion. Can't see why you'd run a bolter tac marine with 2 shots at 24 inches when you can have a deathwatch vet with a SS and storm bolter and FOUR SIA shots at 30 inches.
A little complicated. I'd have just made bolters rapid fire 2 and then made stormbolters rapid fire 4.
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DoomMouse wrote: Hmmm. This does seem to buff the strongest more than the weakest in my opinion. Can't see why you'd run a bolter tac marine with 2 shots at 24 inches when you can have a deathwatch vet with a SS and storm bolter and FOUR SIA shots at 30 inches.
On the whole, good change though.
Buffs my already buffed sternguard vet squads.... all my vets now fire double -2ap shots at 30" when stood still or 4 when in 15"
DoomMouse wrote: Hmmm. This does seem to buff the strongest more than the weakest in my opinion. Can't see why you'd run a bolter tac marine with 2 shots at 24 inches when you can have a deathwatch vet with a SS and storm bolter and FOUR SIA shots at 30 inches.
On the whole, good change though.
Feels more like a boost to termies, bikers, and vehicles than the regular marines. They are the ones who are always getting double shots while the marines have to be at half range or stationary. I at least haven't met many stationary Deathwatch marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Must say I am tempted to test out Deathwing and Ravenwing with these rules.
Interestingly my friend and I play quite a few games of horde goffs vs marine bikers. There has always been a trade off in that his scout/normal bikers want to get into a 12 inch range to pump out the shots, but it leaves him vulnerable to charges if he can't finish off squads. Not so much with this rule.
This makes bikes more attractive for kiting. Plus its a nice boost for all marines as objective campers.
I do agree Astartes bolters require buffing, not bolters in general. They are fine with sisters or on battle tanks or in the hands of Guardsmen. insert blurb about marine super integration with armour and extensive training to get...
Astartes bolters
Bolters (pistols, storm, regular) -1 to armour save.
Regular bolters become assault 2 (storm bolters assault 4) and have an alt fire mode as elite assault troops. In this mode they become rapid fire 2 (storm bolters rapid fire 4), str 3, ap 0 weapons, to represent them using the mass reactive ammo and auto targeting senses to sow confusion in a charging hordes ranks with airbursts, delayed detonation, shrapnel fragments, etc.
All Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes models gain this ability. Instead of following the normal rules for Rapid Fire weapons, Rapid fire bolt weapons used by models with this ability make double the number of attacks if any of the following apply:
The firing model's target is within half the weapon's maximum range.
The firing model remained stationary during its previous Movement phase.
The firing model is a Terminator, Biker ????, Centurion or Vehicle.
Hawky wrote: Not sure if I like it. Seems bit too strong for me.
Me too. Looks definitely too strong.
Some armies have only one answer against the most broken imperium combo, which is the castellan one, to bring hordes. Now if the imperium soup becomes way more effective against hordes without nerfing the huge dude to the ground it's another unfair and unneeded change to buff imperium armies. I understand SM are GW's posterboys but I always have hope
Also, looking at it, it doesn't give bolters four shots.
It gives bolters two shots if:
1. They're at half range (normal rapid fire rule)
2. The unit didn't move, making boters shoot twice at 13-24
3. It's a bike or terminator, which now shoots twice (four times for stormbolters) at 13-24.
Well, by rubrics and scarabs are happy for this beta rule.
Sitting back and DAKKAing is an option now.
Stormbolter veterans of all factions became much more attractive.
IF might be a bit more attractive now because of bolter drill? (a tiny bit)
Inominus crusade intercessors are alot more attractive now (still expensive as hell CPwise)
Deathwatch might be too good with this ruling though.
Not sure this entirely solves the problem with Marines. If anything it makes the already good Deathwatch Marines even better without having a massive effect on regular ones, which just encourages anyone looking to play mass Marine infantry even further down the DWQ route. 13 points for 2 shots almost all the time is OK, but I still don't think it'll encourage anyone to take masses of Tacticals. It's also seems a little anti-fluffy since Marines are supposed to be highly mobile strike forces, but now are usually better off standing still, doing their best Tau impression.
I'm also not happy they're releasing these rules through WD and hope we'll see an interim FAQ update with this Beta rule in it as well.
OK, I guess it is nice. It is however comical at this point how they constantly keep making the rapid fire bolt rifle better when it already was the best choice...
Slipspace wrote: Not sure this entirely solves the problem with Marines. If anything it makes the already good Deathwatch Marines even better without having a massive effect on regular ones, which just encourages anyone looking to play mass Marine infantry even further down the DWQ route. 13 points for 2 shots almost all the time is OK, but I still don't think it'll encourage anyone to take masses of Tacticals. It's also seems a little anti-fluffy since Marines are supposed to be highly mobile strike forces, but now are usually better off standing still, doing their best Tau impression.
I'm also not happy they're releasing these rules through WD and hope we'll see an interim FAQ update with this Beta rule in it as well.
TBF, the unit that benefits from this probably the most out of anyone at all is Scout Bikes, who deathwatch don't get.
Deathwatch arguably lose out because they had Stalker boltguns prior to this, which are arguably obsolete at this point - why would I want one when I could just take a regular joe schmoe boltgun and fire at almost identical range. Regular deathwatch vet squads are going to be operating in exactly the same way they did previously - dropping in (where you wouldn't get the standing still bonus) and shooting things at half range.
I guess deathwatch Primaris are improved, but so are everyone's primaris.
Remaining Stationary and firing basically rapid fire at full range seems fine to me. Not so sure about the changes to Terminators and Bikes though. I think they need a different change from this. Hopefully this change isn't only because it's the poster boys that aren't doing well, and is a sign of more changes to come across the board. The game isn't really doing great as far as game balance is concerned.
While this is a good step in the direction of GW admiting that Bolters as written don't cut it with current infantry points.
I'm not sure this helps the weaker bolters enough, but makes special ammo bolters creep into very competitive/OP land but basic tactical marines still languishing in the ok in friendly games only.
Ice_can wrote: While this is a good step in the direction of GW admiting that Bolters as written don't cut it with current infantry points.
I'm not sure this helps the weaker bolters enough, but makes special ammo bolters creep into very competitive/OP land but basic tactical marines still languishing in the ok in friendly games only.
Changes them up certainly. Sticking Tactical or Primaris dudes on an objective allows them to still contribute a reasonable amount of shooting against infantry.
It doesn't make tacticals great, but obviously makes them better. With the new CA missions, having obsec is good, so now you can have a tac sqd with a hvy weapon doing some work on an objective. DA rerolling 1s to hit for being stationary also helps.
Deathwatch though got a lot better. 4 shots at 24" with SIA if camping an objective. Their bikers (who can be obsec) are going to be nice.
As a Ravenwing player, this is quite a nice buff too, not just for the bikes but the Dark Talon will now be getting 24 shots at 24" instead of 12"
Will have to sit down and chew this one a little more
Nice change. Good for stormbolters, DW vets are really becoming a nice unit. Meh about the beta status as everyone with a non marine faction will just not allow the rules to be in effect, but I assume they keep the change for CA 2019.
Now why GW didn't put this in CA 2018 is a more interesting question. Still very nice.
I like how people are incapable of parsing the difference between 'if any [condition] applies' and 'for any [condition] applies' and to make it even better, pick wishful thinking option that doesn't exist without engaging common sense and asking themselves if their maximum cheese reading isn't maybe a tad too good
Welp, looks like assault cannons and heavy flamers on termies are officially dead now. Ditto for any primaris bolt weapons that aren't rifle. Special issue bolter and stalker bolter used by various veterans still have a tiny niche, but it's much smaller now. I wonder, when is DW nerf coming because they surely won't get to keep their rules now...
Irbis wrote: ...
Special issue bolter and stalker bolter used by various veterans still have a tiny niche, but it's much smaller now.
...
But Special Issue Bolters are Rapid fire? So they will be able to benefit from this buff.
Yeah, the problem is Storm Bolters are just hilariously good for their points, no matter who's taking them. You should pretty much be replacing any bolter with a storm bolter wherever you can. They're like the sole effective anti-chaff upgrade weapon that exists in the game.
Karol wrote: Nice change. Good for stormbolters, DW vets are really becoming a nice unit. Meh about the beta status as everyone with a non marine faction will just not allow the rules to be in effect, but I assume they keep the change for CA 2019.
Now why GW didn't put this in CA 2018 is a more interesting question. Still very nice.
why would they do that? Do they not use any of the beta rules that GW has put out? If people refusing to play the beta rules because of how it affects their specific army is a thing, I'd look for different opponents. Or just don't play ANY beta rule.
It doesn’t increase the max firepower, but lets you apply it further away. A boon to camping squads.
Bikes will get to project fire on the move, without having to get into rapid fire range. Special weapons will still want to be close, but between their movement and range, they will be able to project fire over a huge amount of the table while staying away from threats. Fits their role as skirmishers.
Terminators will be able to shoot effectively at range, so if they find themselves outside of power-fist charge range, they can still threaten things. The ability to move and project fire was the niche role of the stormbolter in previous editions, for TDA, it is once again.
I think the hurricane bolter arm on my ironclad might get some more use. LRCs and SRs also get a nice boost. Where else can we get them? Centurians, who also get a call out for always on. Will help their tubby slow selves actually be able to shoot stuff.
Camping sternguard with their special issue bolters will enjoy this. Stick them in cover and threaten a 30” radius on the table. Point drop in CA18 with this makes for some nice full gunlines.
--
This is a pretty big slap in the face to all non-rapid fire bolter variants. The heavy bolt rife in particular just had its usefulness cut dramatically. Hopefully they can get adjusted later.
I don’t think this is going to be game breakingly powerful. I normally endeavor to be in rapid fire range anyway for my bolter troops. This just lets us project fire better in the right circumstance.
Hawky wrote: Not sure if I like it. Seems bit too strong for me.
Me too. Looks definitely too strong.
Some armies have only one answer against the most broken imperium combo, which is the castellan one, to bring hordes. Now if the imperium soup becomes way more effective against hordes without nerfing the huge dude to the ground it's another unfair and unneeded change to buff imperium armies. I understand SM are GW's posterboys but I always have hope
Err, well, those were IG with the knights not marines. Marines still don't have orders benefits. This does make Deathwatch plus a knight seem a little nuts, but it will be fewer bodies overall.
One thing to note is that this is a beta rule. If they discover that it makes certain things really broken, they may scale it back for certain circumstances.
Nevelon wrote: Where else can we get them? Centurians, who also get a call out for always on. Will help their tubby slow selves actually be able to shoot stuff.
They'll get some extra mileage out of the mortal wound stratagem certainly.
I think this is a great change. Wish it effected Heavy Bolters as well, though.
It certainly isn't going to be meta-changing for most Astartes armies, but Deathwatch are the clear winners here. Especially DW Intercessors. Why bother with the Stalker bolter when you can use the Bolt Rifle, sit stationary in cover and get 2 shots at 36" that are AP-2? Or 2 shots at 30" AP-1 that wound on 2+? And good gravy DW Termies are gonna be fun.
To avoid DW OPness, just make it so that SIA voids this rule. DWSBs can still put out 4 shots at distance, but if they want to use special ammo, they have to get closer. Seems balanced & fair to me (a DW player).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And more generally, praise the lord, this is a great beta rule. Marines ain't too tough but their problem was always how ineffectual they were in terms of damage output. Indomitus Crusade vets, triggering their strat, will now CHEW hordes for breakfast, which is all kinds of cool.
Those ancient mathhammer arguments about marines vs guardsmen will look an awful lot different now too!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Deathwatch are the clear winners here.
Especially DW Intercessors.
Galef wrote: I think this is a great change. Wish it effected Heavy Bolters as well, though.
It certainly isn't going to be meta-changing for most Astartes armies, but Deathwatch are the clear winners here.
Especially DW Intercessors. Why bother with the Stalker bolter when you can use the Bolt Rifle, sit stationary in cover and get 2 shots at 36" that are AP-2?
Or 2 shots at 30" AP-1 that wound on 2+?
And good gravy DW Termies are gonna be fun.
So, if I'm reading this right, for a basic Tac squad, all that changes is that they can double-tap out to 24" if they don't move, while bigger units can just always doubletap out to 24" right?
While I don't think this will break anything, I don't think it will do much to help the units that need it most either. I don't expect too many meta shifts, but it will make Marines a bit killier at intermediate ranges.
Vaktathi wrote: So, if I'm reading this right, for a basic Tac squad, all that changes is that they can double-tap out to 24" if they don't move, while bigger units can just always doubletap out to 24" right?
While I don't think this will break anything, I don't think it will do much to help the units that need it most either. I don't expect too many meta shifts, but it will make Marines a bit killier at intermediate ranges.
Its not intended to be a massive balance sweep that will shake the foundations of the meta.
Its just meant to make your bog standard marines suck a little less.
Galef wrote: Deathwatch are the clear winners here. Especially DW Intercessors.
Nah, it's SB vets. Again.
I won't deny that SB/SS Vets got a clear bump here. But the extra wound, range and AP of Intercessors allows them to be parked in cover and affect the game more. Even with SS, Vets are only 1 wound and with ALL Astartes getting this bonus, SS just got a slight nerf. It doesn't matter which unit is better than the other, both are getting a more significant bump than most other Astartes because of SIA.
Sure...but how often were you out of rapid fire with SB Vets anyway? Pretty infrequently against most opponents, I'd say.
It'll be DW Terminators and bikes that benefit the most.
And DW Intercessors parked in cover. Their extra wound, range and AP makes them great backfield objective holders that are now getting 10 shots per unit of 5 at either 30" AP-1 wounding on 2+, or 36" with AP-2
Every gun they have is now a nice, clean 24" range.
I thought about it, but, SOT still suffer from the fact that they use power swords and then only move 4” a turn. I’d rather throw my CP into Tzaangors etc than VotLW on the SOT. They are great Marine and chaff killers, but I think they really struggle against a lot of other stuff right now. I don’t think having 24” rapid fire would have had too much of an impact on any of the games in which I’ve ran 5 or even 10 SOT :(
Every gun they have is now a nice, clean 24" range.
I thought about it, but, SOT still suffer from the fact that they use power swords and then only move 4” a turn. I’d rather throw my CP into Tzaangors etc than VotLW on the SOT. They are great Marine and chaff killers, but I think they really struggle against a lot of other stuff right now. I don’t think having 24” rapid fire would have had too much of an impact on any of the games in which I’ve ran 5 or even 10 SOT :(
"Suffer" from the fact they use power swords? What edition are you playing, friend, terminators fight for the PRIVILEGE of 4 point power weapons in 8th.
You can't on one hand say DW terminators are going to be OP and crap on SOTs - the reason DW terminators are good is the fact that they can take power weapons and their storm bolters are beefed up.
I never said DW termies are going to be OP. They will benefit more, sure, due to their SIA, but that’s it. I still maintain it’s going to better on backfield units and bikers and rather wasted on termies.
My issue with SOT and power swords, is that, when was the last time you opted to put a power sword onto anything, especially over thunder hammers, power fists or even lightening claws? SOT can do some work in combat, but, for me, it’s not really the place you want them to be, especially if you can’t quickly kill what you’re charging. At which point, you could simply opt to run 10 Rubric Marines instead and only lose out on the missiles.
10, or even 20 Rubric Marines webwaying in or DMCing can certainly put out a lot of damage – it just costs you 382 points.
I would have thought something like Death to the False Emperor or Dakka Dakka but for wounds would have been better. Like Adeptus or Heretic Astartes models would get to roll extra wound rolls for each roll of 6. Just me wish-listing I suppose.
Kdash wrote: I never said DW termies are going to be OP. They will benefit more, sure, due to their SIA, but that’s it. I still maintain it’s going to better on backfield units and bikers and rather wasted on termies.
My issue with SOT and power swords, is that, when was the last time you opted to put a power sword onto anything, especially over thunder hammers, power fists or even lightening claws? SOT can do some work in combat, but, for me, it’s not really the place you want them to be, especially if you can’t quickly kill what you’re charging. At which point, you could simply opt to run 10 Rubric Marines instead and only lose out on the missiles.
10, or even 20 Rubric Marines webwaying in or DMCing can certainly put out a lot of damage – it just costs you 382 points.
Every time I've taken a Terminator, I have wanted to put a power sword on it over a power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw. Every time. Because like you just said, combat is not where you want them to be - you want them to be shooting things with the AP-2 boltguns, soulreaper cannons, smites and hellfire missiles.
5x SOTs cost exactly the same as 10x rubrics, put out 1 more bolter shot at 12" and now 11 more at 24", get +1 to their armor and invulnerable saves, AP-3 in combat, and deep strike, basically all for free. Plus, you can buy them missiles for 15pts just as an added bonus.
Other than scout bikes and DW bikers, I can't think of a unit that benefits more from this rule change than SOTs.
Kdash wrote: I never said DW termies are going to be OP. They will benefit more, sure, due to their SIA, but that’s it. I still maintain it’s going to better on backfield units and bikers and rather wasted on termies.
My issue with SOT and power swords, is that, when was the last time you opted to put a power sword onto anything, especially over thunder hammers, power fists or even lightening claws? SOT can do some work in combat, but, for me, it’s not really the place you want them to be, especially if you can’t quickly kill what you’re charging. At which point, you could simply opt to run 10 Rubric Marines instead and only lose out on the missiles.
10, or even 20 Rubric Marines webwaying in or DMCing can certainly put out a lot of damage – it just costs you 382 points.
Every time I've taken a Terminator, I have wanted to put a power sword on it over a power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw. Every time. Because like you just said, combat is not where you want them to be - you want them to be shooting things with the AP-2 boltguns, soulreaper cannons, smites and hellfire missiles.
5x SOTs cost exactly the same as 10x rubrics, put out 1 more bolter shot at 12" and now 11 more at 24", get +1 to their armor and invulnerable saves, AP-3 in combat, and deep strike, basically all for free. Plus, you can buy them missiles for 15pts just as an added bonus.
Other than scout bikes and DW bikers, I can't think of a unit that benefits more from this rule change than SOTs.
They got the same invul mate. (and technically SOT cost 3 more points, but that's a nitpick)
And SOT main issue is that they are more vulnerable to multi-damage attacks compared to rubrics, and against most D1 shot are just as good (because all is dust making 1 damage shots do the number of wounds unless AP-1 or AP-2, higher or lower its the same. unless you are in cover and then its AP-2 and AP-3 who are identical)
Rubrics more vulnerable to moral damage and CC though.
Basically, its pretty much a wash. each got an edge in some conditions, but unless you got some target magnets for enemy heavy guns, the SOT will just die a lot faster.
It used to be clear rubrics are superior if you are not DSing (and even then, mostly superior)-but SOT can now walk and shoot to full distance makes them more attractive.
I'd still prefer rubrics unless I've got tanks and such around though-because as said, if you got heavy guns targeting your SOT, they are inferior to rubrics in durability.
Well, makes my double bolter Rhinos a bit cooler. Death Guard still get better rapid fire plasma, and cultists, and the heavy and assault weapon bonus so no big loss. Of course, I just sold off all my Space Marine bikers a few months ago, and actually dismantled my Stormraven gunship. Might have to go and convert up double bolter Chosen if I have any Marine models left.
Oh, right, they get the downside of being slow with their Cataphractii armor but they don't get the 4++ invuln save that loyalists get with the exact same armor because reasons. I forgot that they also fethed that up in 8th along with their force swords becoming power swords.
Every gun they have is now a nice, clean 24" range.
I thought about it, but, SOT still suffer from the fact that they use power swords and then only move 4” a turn. I’d rather throw my CP into Tzaangors etc than VotLW on the SOT. They are great Marine and chaff killers, but I think they really struggle against a lot of other stuff right now. I don’t think having 24” rapid fire would have had too much of an impact on any of the games in which I’ve ran 5 or even 10 SOT :(
Shoot behind the screen - charge the screen.
SoT can now also place more optimally and be effective for longer.
30 Tzaangors with VotLW can do 6.7 wounds to T7 3+. 6 Scarabs (roughly the same points; SB only) can do 5.3 from 24". Those Tzaangors have to make it into melee and not all models will be in base.
This won't have a massive effect on my storm bolter vets since they are usually on the move, but it does give some more options which are always good. I think it may give me a little more incentive to use a few normal bolters as stationary objective holders.
One potential use I see is the DW captain in terminator armor. A captain with a storm bolter and Banebolts is quite powerful. Previously, I would give this to a a jet pack captain, but now that he gets the guaranteed range with the terminator armor, he should be a solid option.
Well in all honesty it also makes taking a 5 man Marine Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Storm/Combi bolter Sgt a much more attractive choice.
Once they get parked on an objective they are fully effective out to 24 inches, and can provide a decent chunk of damage against infantry from that range. Not having a big incentive to close to within 12 inches to get the most out of the large number of bolters marines have to take will be a big impact on how they end up playing.
Not sure if it will make marines an actually interesting troop choice compared to say, scouts who can do the same thing and infiltrate to mid field so don't need to worry about spending turns moving into good position. Or cultists who are still cheap despite being nerfed, or the loyal 32 who are ubiquitous in imperial lists. but at least Marine troops will be slightly closer in the gap.
akaean wrote: Well in all honesty it also makes taking a 5 man Marine Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Storm/Combi bolter Sgt a much more attractive choice.
Once they get parked on an objective they are fully effective out to 24 inches, and can provide a decent chunk of damage against infantry from that range. Not having a big incentive to close to within 12 inches to get the most out of the large number of bolters marines have to take will be a big impact on how they end up playing.
Not sure if it will make marines an actually interesting troop choice compared to say, scouts who can do the same thing and infiltrate to mid field so don't need to worry about spending turns moving into good position. Or cultists who are still cheap despite being nerfed, or the loyal 32 who are ubiquitous in imperial lists. but at least Marine troops will be slightly closer in the gap.
Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF. IS now have to come within 12" to be as effective. It's probably the cleanest solution for marines that doesn't break much and it's never been thought of here that I have seen.
There are downsides though - Black Legion and other RF become assault traits just hate it, for one.
I also think this is a good opportunity to make Heavy Bolters RF for Astartes. Maybe RF2 would be best with this Beta? Gives 4 shots (with no -1 to hit penalty) if they remain stationary, or shoot something at 18". No points adjustment needed
Vehicles and Attack Bikes with HBs could be interesting with this change Would make HBs a worthwhile weapon again. I'm going to send this suggestion as feedback to GW.
the_scotsman wrote: Oh, right, they get the downside of being slow with their Cataphractii armor but they don't get the 4++ invuln save that loyalists get with the exact same armor because reasons. I forgot that they also fethed that up in 8th along with their force swords becoming power swords.
Except they use Tartaros, not Cataprachtii.
Regarding Custodes, no, they should not be included. They are not marines, they are not even soldiers as much as they are warriors. Peerless duellists and general murdermachines, sure, but not in lockstep with each other like the marines are.
I think GW fundamentally misunderstands why Marines aren't good. This change is going to have a pretty minimal impact. Helps GK a little, buffs DW storm bolters a good bit but DW don't need buffs for anti hordes, they suck at anti vehicle. Small boost to primaris. Won't matter for TACs, they'll still suck. Biggest boost is probably for hurricane bolters on storm ravens.
Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.
Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.
If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?
I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.
As a Custodes player, I actually don't think they should get it. From a crunch standpoint, I want it bad, don't get me wrong, but from a fluff standpoint Marines and their Bolters are two peas in a pod. Custodes don't really have such a close identification with any of their weapons as a Marine does to his Bolter. This should stay a Marine special rule.
Now Custodes do need a few buffs (the FNP to mortal wounds needs to work outside the psychic phase, Allarus are too expensive still, Wardens need a stronger FNP, Telemon and Caladius need a small points decrease, e.t.c.), but not this.
If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?
I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.
No. Those guys think that attaching a bolter at the end of a long stick is a good idea. They obviously have no idea of how to use them.
Deathwatch Watch Master: *rapid fires enemy at 24"*
Nearby Custode: "Hey, how'd you do that?"
Watch Master: "Hmm, oh, that? Oh just, you know. I limber up, do my stretches in the morning. Get my warm-up cardio. Then I put on my armor that doesn't look like Donald Trump threw up on a Blizzard video game character and somehow I'm able to use this weapon better."
cmspano wrote: I think GW fundamentally misunderstands why Marines aren't good. This change is going to have a pretty minimal impact. Helps GK a little, buffs DW storm bolters a good bit but DW don't need buffs for anti hordes, they suck at anti vehicle. Small boost to primaris. Won't matter for TACs, they'll still suck. Biggest boost is probably for hurricane bolters on storm ravens.
Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.
Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.
Just how fast do you think IS move? Either they're walking and shooting or they're running and not shooting. Don't forget to add the cost of the Commander to those abilities.
40 + 15 is an IS squad and a commander order
That's basically 4 marines vs 9 IS (sarge has no lasgun).
Marines kill 2.4 (9.6 points).
IS either move and FRFSRF for 0.5 to 1 marine (if not in cover), which is 6.5 to 13 points.
Marines in cover absolutely smoke them out. If you want to MMM instead, that's fine, but you're not getting shots off and not getting there unscathed. And don't forget morale. And if you flub your commander's advance roll you can outpace order range without VOX, which costs yet more points.
cmspano wrote: I think GW fundamentally misunderstands why Marines aren't good. This change is going to have a pretty minimal impact. Helps GK a little, buffs DW storm bolters a good bit but DW don't need buffs for anti hordes, they suck at anti vehicle. Small boost to primaris. Won't matter for TACs, they'll still suck. Biggest boost is probably for hurricane bolters on storm ravens.
Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.
Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.
Just how fast do you think IS move? Either they're walking and shooting or they're running and not shooting. Don't forget to add the cost of the Commander to those abilities.
40 + 15 is an IS squad and a commander order
That's basically 4 marines vs 9 IS (sarge has no lasgun).
Marines kill 2.4 (9.6 points).
IS either move and FRFSRF for 0.5 to 1 marine (if not in cover), which is 6.5 to 13 points.
Marines in cover absolutely smoke them out. If you want to MMM instead, that's fine, but you're not getting shots off and not getting there unscathed. And don't forget morale. And if you flub your commander's advance roll you can outpace order range without VOX, which costs yet more points.
Nope, every Guardsman ever is always getting Move Move Move and FRFSRF simultaneously while being in range of a company commander, straken, a priest, and...given the statement above...guilliman?
HOWEVER, they pretty darn well SHOULD. the IS are overpowered compared to every other basic infantry in the game, and are widely accepted to need at least 1 point increase (that means a whopping 25% for something this cheap.)
Heck, the IS are strictly better than several 5 point units even without counting their superior support options.
cmspano wrote: Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.
I suspect you are not factoring some additional costs into those '4pt' guardsmen.
Lol. Go actually fight Catachans with Cadian backups and see how well your marines in cover do. Turn 1 you'll have 100+ dudes MMM in your zone. Turn 2 the 60 of them that survive plus their priests, platoon commanders, company commanders, harker, etc will put 200+ shots into you and charge you. 180 melee attacks later there won't be a lot of marines left. The whole time 15+ mortars willl also hit you as well as vultures, basilisks etc.
That giant mass of melee and buff characters is only going to cost about 700 points. There's still 1300+ points of artillery blasting you. They could easily bring 100 catachans, Harker, a couple priests, a few platoon commanders, a CC, and also 9 basilisks.
CC is 30 points, PC is 15 points. Harker is like 70 I think. Priests are around 50 I want to say. 400 points of guardsmen, 300 points for all the characters you need. 1300 points gets you a huge pile of artillery in guard.
Edit. Hell they could bring a few knights along with that if they wanted to.
DoomMouse wrote: Hmmm. This does seem to buff the strongest more than the weakest in my opinion. Can't see why you'd run a bolter tac marine with 2 shots at 24 inches when you can have a deathwatch vet with a SS and storm bolter and FOUR SIA shots at 30 inches.
On the whole, good change though.
Simply put - DW are flat out too good for their points. If there was a meta in which vehicals didn't exist. DW would literally be unbeatable.
cmspano wrote: I think GW fundamentally misunderstands why Marines aren't good. This change is going to have a pretty minimal impact. Helps GK a little, buffs DW storm bolters a good bit but DW don't need buffs for anti hordes, they suck at anti vehicle. Small boost to primaris. Won't matter for TACs, they'll still suck. Biggest boost is probably for hurricane bolters on storm ravens.
Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.
Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.
Just how fast do you think IS move? Either they're walking and shooting or they're running and not shooting. Don't forget to add the cost of the Commander to those abilities.
40 + 15 is an IS squad and a commander order
That's basically 4 marines vs 9 IS (sarge has no lasgun).
Marines kill 2.4 (9.6 points).
IS either move and FRFSRF for 0.5 to 1 marine (if not in cover), which is 6.5 to 13 points.
Marines in cover absolutely smoke them out. If you want to MMM instead, that's fine, but you're not getting shots off and not getting there unscathed. And don't forget morale. And if you flub your commander's advance roll you can outpace order range without VOX, which costs yet more points.
Nope, every Guardsman ever is always getting Move Move Move and FRFSRF simultaneously while being in range of a company commander, straken, a priest, and...given the statement above...guilliman?
Get over yourself dude - some people expect their opponents know how to play their armies.
Leaves the assault bolters in a strange spot, not a popular choice I know but it makes bolter reivers even less appealing which is a shame because they needed help even before this change.
cmspano wrote: Lol. Go actually fight Catachans with Cadian backups and see how well your marines in cover do. Turn 1 you'll have 100+ dudes MMM in your zone. Turn 2 the 60 of them that survive plus their priests, platoon commanders, company commanders, harker, etc will put 200+ shots into you and charge you. 180 melee attacks later there won't be a lot of marines left. The whole time 15+ mortars willl also hit you as well as vultures, basilisks etc.
That giant mass of melee and buff characters is only going to cost about 700 points. There's still 1300+ points of artillery blasting you. They could easily bring 100 catachans, Harker, a couple priests, a few platoon commanders, a CC, and also 9 basilisks.
CC is 30 points, PC is 15 points. Harker is like 70 I think. Priests are around 50 I want to say. 400 points of guardsmen, 300 points for all the characters you need. 1300 points gets you a huge pile of artillery in guard.
Given that you said reroll 1s to hit I am assuming you're bringing Yarrick.
So, in a Brigade I can get:
Yarrick
Straken
3x CCs
10x IS
3x PCs 1x Priest
Harker
3x Scout Sents
9x Basilisks
3x Mortar squads
that's just about 2k - you've got 15 points to put somewhere.
Definitely a tough nut to crack - you'd need 1100 points of SS/SB deathwatch vets with a watch master to take out the IS' in one turn.
You'd struggle to pull it off with marines. The biggest benefit of the deathwatch is the durability of the storm shields - you could basically kill the infantry and then spend the rest of the game just slugging it out with characters and the basilisks+mortars down less than a squad a turn.
Xenomancers wrote: If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.
You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.
Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.
If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?
I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.
No. Those guys think that attaching a bolter at the end of a long stick is a good idea. They obviously have no idea of how to use them.
Deathwatch Watch Master: *rapid fires enemy at 24"*
Nearby Custode: "Hey, how'd you do that?"
Watch Master: "Hmm, oh, that? Oh just, you know. I limber up, do my stretches in the morning. Get my warm-up cardio. Then I put on my armor that doesn't look like Donald Trump threw up on a Blizzard video game character and somehow I'm able to use this weapon better."
No, the real reason is that the watchmaster most likely actually has combat experience unlike the custard flask that sat around for 10'000 years.
Karol wrote: Nice change. Good for stormbolters, DW vets are really becoming a nice unit. Meh about the beta status as everyone with a non marine faction will just not allow the rules to be in effect, but I assume they keep the change for CA 2019.
Now why GW didn't put this in CA 2018 is a more interesting question. Still very nice.
Pick whichever reason makes you feel better:
1) Because they thought of it about a month & a half ago/well past the deadline to get it into CA.
2) Because they need something to sell you in this issue of WD beyond pretty pictures.
Xenomancers wrote: If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.
You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.
Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison. Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.
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I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.
To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.
A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.
cmspano wrote: Lol. Go actually fight Catachans with Cadian backups and see how well your marines in cover do. Turn 1 you'll have 100+ dudes MMM in your zone. Turn 2 the 60 of them that survive plus their priests, platoon commanders, company commanders, harker, etc will put 200+ shots into you and charge you. 180 melee attacks later there won't be a lot of marines left. The whole time 15+ mortars willl also hit you as well as vultures, basilisks etc.
That giant mass of melee and buff characters is only going to cost about 700 points. There's still 1300+ points of artillery blasting you. They could easily bring 100 catachans, Harker, a couple priests, a few platoon commanders, a CC, and also 9 basilisks.
CC is 30 points, PC is 15 points. Harker is like 70 I think. Priests are around 50 I want to say. 400 points of guardsmen, 300 points for all the characters you need. 1300 points gets you a huge pile of artillery in guard.
Edit. Hell they could bring a few knights along with that if they wanted to.
And this ignores everything that marines have kicking around.
If you want to MMM as fast as you can bet that I'll walk on you and charge.
And let's take a really simply example - 30 DWSS/SB Vets, kraken bolts, and a Watch Master will kill 69 IS (or 83 with vengeance if you moved in range). So...go ahead and do that, because I guarantee you will face Deathwatch and you're not going to like it.
Karol wrote: Nice change. Good for stormbolters, DW vets are really becoming a nice unit. Meh about the beta status as everyone with a non marine faction will just not allow the rules to be in effect, but I assume they keep the change for CA 2019.
Now why GW didn't put this in CA 2018 is a more interesting question. Still very nice.
Pick whichever reason makes you feel better:
1) Because they thought of it about a month & a half ago/well past the deadline to get it into CA.
2) Because they need something to sell you in this issue of WD beyond pretty pictures.
Or they really do want to put these changes in the FAQs instead of CA and it wasn't ready for prime time. So they decided to put it out to stop some complaints.
There's also an article on WarCom, because of the leak. It's not like you have to own a copy of WD to use this rule.
Xenomancers wrote: If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.
You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.
Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.
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I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.
To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.
A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.
I really don't see how they could POSSIBLY be more clear about this.
The amount of people managing to feth up reading this made me lose another sliver of hope for humanity from the nothing that remains.
So, let's talk about a few oddballs here for a second:
Land Raider Crusaders now put 28 bolter shots (2x hurricane+1 Storm) at 24" and also 12 assault cannon shots that ignore moving and shooting. That's fun. I don't know if it's amazing, but it's certainly interesting, especially if the 24" RF range is making you feel old school and you want to pack a land raider full of termies.
company veterans on bikes are 40ppm for Storm Bolter/Storm Shield loadout. W3, T5, M14, 3+/3++, puts out 8 shots at 24". Pricy, compared to a deathwatch biker at 25, but -1 to hit and 3++ are big durability upgrades and they put out 1.6x the firepower for 1.6x the cost almost exactly (as compared to SIA vs GEQ).
Ironclad dreads now put out a dozen bolt shots at 24 rather than 6. Meh. I was thinking their little chainsword fist had a storm bolter on it too, but apparently it can only take a meltagun/heavy flamer on that arm. The same is true with all dreadnoughts, apparently - double combat arm dreads don't seem to be able to take double storm bolters, oddly enough.
cmspano wrote: Lol. Go actually fight Catachans with Cadian backups and see how well your marines in cover do. Turn 1 you'll have 100+ dudes MMM in your zone. Turn 2 the 60 of them that survive plus their priests, platoon commanders, company commanders, harker, etc will put 200+ shots into you and charge you. 180 melee attacks later there won't be a lot of marines left. The whole time 15+ mortars willl also hit you as well as vultures, basilisks etc.
That giant mass of melee and buff characters is only going to cost about 700 points. There's still 1300+ points of artillery blasting you. They could easily bring 100 catachans, Harker, a couple priests, a few platoon commanders, a CC, and also 9 basilisks.
CC is 30 points, PC is 15 points. Harker is like 70 I think. Priests are around 50 I want to say. 400 points of guardsmen, 300 points for all the characters you need. 1300 points gets you a huge pile of artillery in guard.
Edit. Hell they could bring a few knights along with that if they wanted to.
And this ignores everything that marines have kicking around.
If you want to MMM as fast as you can bet that I'll walk on you and charge.
And let's take a really simply example - 30 DWSS/SB Vets, kraken bolts, and a Watch Master will kill 69 IS (or 83 with vengeance if you moved in range). So...go ahead and do that, because I guarantee you will face Deathwatch and you're not going to like it.
Karol wrote: Nice change. Good for stormbolters, DW vets are really becoming a nice unit. Meh about the beta status as everyone with a non marine faction will just not allow the rules to be in effect, but I assume they keep the change for CA 2019.
Now why GW didn't put this in CA 2018 is a more interesting question. Still very nice.
Pick whichever reason makes you feel better:
1) Because they thought of it about a month & a half ago/well past the deadline to get it into CA.
2) Because they need something to sell you in this issue of WD beyond pretty pictures.
Daedalus81 wrote: Or they really do want to put these changes in the FAQs instead of CA and it wasn't ready for prime time. So they decided to put it out to stop some complaints.
Sure, that works as well. As does speculative reasons 4+. It's just fun to give Karol crap as he's always going on about GWs motives.
Daedalus81 wrote: There's also an article on WarCom, because of the leak. It's not like you have to own a copy of WD to use this rule.
Yeah, I know that. It's also up on the GW community.
Did they intend it to be there today? Does it matter?
I mean the Death Guard rule still applies right? As far as I can tell Inexonerable Advance acts on the first criteria of the new Bolter Discipline rule.
Sure, it means they're not quite as great as before compared to other marines but they can still move and get rapid fire at 18".
master of asgard wrote: I mean the Death Guard rule still applies right? As far as I can tell Inexonerable Advance acts on the first criteria of the new Bolter Discipline rule.
Sure, it means they're not quite as great as before compared to other marines but they can still move and get rapid fire at 18".
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
It's not clear, however I would say that it simply adds an extra option to the list, they get to fire twice at 18" in addition to the other rules. So if you move, you get to fire twice at 18" because Inexorable Advance applies, but you also get to fire twice at 24" if you didn't move or are a TERMINATOR, for example.
the_scotsman wrote: It's not "Bolters are assault 6 S5 AP-3 Dd3, marines have 1+ armor, cost 10 points, T5 W3" of course Dakka has not come up with this buff.
Ouch.
Crimson wrote: No. Those guys think that attaching a bolter at the end of a long stick is a good idea. They obviously have no idea of how to use them.
Eh, bolter-on-a-stick isn't enough of a reason for this not to work, or the DW Guardian Spear wouldn't be called out as working under it...
BaconCatBug wrote: I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.
An extra clarification beyond the "You do this instead of using the normal Rapid Fire rules" that it already says? Seriously?
I guess an example might not hurt, but we haven't seen the full WD article yet.
* * *
Given that half the Beta rule text seems to be explaining what a bolt weapon is, d'you reckon the rules team might regret not rolling out keywords (such as Bolt) to individual weapon profiles?
DoomMouse wrote: Hmmm. This does seem to buff the strongest more than the weakest in my opinion. Can't see why you'd run a bolter tac marine with 2 shots at 24 inches when you can have a deathwatch vet with a SS and storm bolter and FOUR SIA shots at 30 inches.
On the whole, good change though.
TAC marines want to be camping an objective laying down a bit of supporting fire with their one heavy weapon and some bolters. Now that their bolters lay down better supporting fire up to 24" they are better at doing that and the one heavy weapon feels more like it fits in with everything else.
It is a little nudge rather than a massive rules change but it is in the right direction.
TAC marines are still not the heavy hitters in the list, never have been, never will be. Its just that they can contribute a little more now.
If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...
torblind wrote: In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.
As anyone who has served in the military can tell you, when you are firing while stationary, you do not gain the ability to fire more accurately at long range. Instead, when you hold down the trigger the gun starts firing more bullets.
In fact, the only thing that makes your gun fire more bullets than standing stationary is when a guy runs at you waving a sword - then your gun starts firing FOUR times as fast!
torblind wrote: In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.
As anyone who has served in the military can tell you, when you are firing while stationary, you do not gain the ability to fire more accurately at long range. Instead, when you hold down the trigger the gun starts firing more bullets.
In fact, the only thing that makes your gun fire more bullets than standing stationary is when a guy runs at you waving a sword - then your gun starts firing FOUR times as fast!
Argh.
More anti-cc rules, just what the game needs.
Standing still would (in real life) make those shots more accurate though. And since number of shots I'd always proportional to damage, it's not a horrible mechanic.
I have served, but we never practiced "shooting while walking", probably contributing to me surviving the thing and being here today.
If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?
I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.
Only if it applies to Sisters (of both kinds) as well - No I doubt it will happen.
Or people will complain and they'll take it off hurricane bolters. Or they will, people will complain, and they'll leave it there because 24 boltgun shots out of a 90-pt model is still about 3x more expensive per shot than Guardsmen.
torblind wrote: In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.
Not sure if 4th/5th count as "the olden days" but yeah, back then you always got 2 shots at 12" and only got the 1 shot at 24" if you stood still. Which was dumb
"My bullet goes farther if I aim better" was nonsense, but "I get more hits because I aim better" makes a lot more sense.
torblind wrote: In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.
Not sure if 4th/5th count as "the olden days" but yeah, back then you always got 2 shots at 12" and only got the 1 shot at 24" if you stood still. Which was dumb
"My bullet goes farther if I aim better" was nonsense, but "I get more hits because I aim better" makes a lot more sense.
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2nd edition, I think it was stationary only but my memory may fail me
Crimson wrote: If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...
Err, none of those models can take the Crimson Fist relic bolter. Did you mean the Primaris versions?
However, you're right the Beta rule doesn't apply if you replace a Master-crafted auto bolt rifle or Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, only if you replace a normal Bolt Rifle.
Crimson wrote: If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...
Err, none of those models can take the Crimson Fist relic...
master of asgard wrote: I mean the Death Guard rule still applies right? As far as I can tell Inexonerable Advance acts on the first criteria of the new Bolter Discipline rule.
Sure, it means they're not quite as great as before compared to other marines but they can still move and get rapid fire at 18".
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
It's not clear, however I would say that it simply adds an extra option to the list, they get to fire twice at 18" in addition to the other rules. So if you move, you get to fire twice at 18" because Inexorable Advance applies, but you also get to fire twice at 24" if you didn't move or are a TERMINATOR, for example.
Yes, that's how I'm reading it too. It certainly adds a (very slight) bit more tactical diversity to some units.
Crimson wrote: If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...
Err, none of those models can take the Crimson Fist relic...
I am obviously talking about Primaris characters.
Ah, right. I like apples. Obviously I meant I like oranges.
You're right the Beta rule doesn't apply if you replace a Master-crafted auto bolt rifle or Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, only if you replace a normal Bolt Rifle.
I like how the Intercessor in the image accompanying the Community article doesn't actually have a weapon which would allow him to use the new beta rule...
Xenomancers wrote: If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.
You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.
Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.
-
I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.
To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.
A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.
I really don't see how they could POSSIBLY be more clear about this.
The amount of people managing to feth up reading this made me lose another sliver of hope for humanity from the nothing that remains.
It's simply a matter of getting too excited and not reading it properly. Your reaction seems a bit ... over the top. For both of you.
The Rapid Fire rules were, IIRC, always, always, always preceded by some bumpf about advancing and 'shooting from the hip' vs. being stationary and being able to take better aim.
For clarity, I'm not arguing that's realistic. I wouldn't know. I will say however that if you play a game featuring Daemons, sentient fungus, Elves and fish-people, realism probably isn't actually uppermost in your mind.
Excommunicatus wrote: The Rapid Fire rules were, IIRC, always, always, always preceded by some bumpf about advancing and 'shooting from the hip' vs. being stationary and being able to take better aim.
For clarity, I'm not arguing that's realistic. I wouldn't know. I will say however that if you play a game featuring Daemons, sentient fungus, Elves and fish-people, realism probably isn't actually uppermost in your mind.
an unrealistic setting still requires plausible game mechanics.
flying pigs still wouldn't do even if they too are unrealistic.
Excommunicatus wrote: The Rapid Fire rules were, IIRC, always, always, always preceded by some bumpf about advancing and 'shooting from the hip' vs. being stationary and being able to take better aim.
For clarity, I'm not arguing that's realistic. I wouldn't know. I will say however that if you play a game featuring Daemons, sentient fungus, Elves and fish-people, realism probably isn't actually uppermost in your mind.
So where are my Guardsmen punching planets to death?
All Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes models gain this ability. Instead of following the normal rules for Rapid Fire weapons, Rapid fire bolt weapons used by models with this ability make double the number of attacks if any of the following apply:
The firing model's target is within half the weapon's maximum range.
The firing model remained stationary during its previous Movement phase.
The firing model is a Terminator, Biker ????, Centurion or Vehicle.
This will go a long way making marines better but my Custodes are going to be even badder mofos.
Excommunicatus wrote: While it's a welcome change, it doesn't really do anything to encourage you to actually take Chaos Space Marines as Troops.
Cultists are still vastly more efficient.
You can get 15 CSM for 40 Cultists.
It depends on what you're trying to do and this might reveal why cultists went to 5 points. Cultists require a lot more support and CSM benefit more from buffs.
That many CSM, while not likely in cover, have big durability advantages. One S4 hit kills a marine 16% of the time and a cultist 55% of the time (11% and 42% vs S3). That's not the whole picture, but you're getting a return on your investment in most cases.
At 24" 5 CSM produce 8.9 S4 hits with full rerolls. 13 Cultists get 9.8 S3. The strength advantage goes a long way - especially when VotLW takes them to wounding on 2/3/4 instead of 3/4/5.
Vastly is not the right word. The problem is having to stand still.
Buff is a buff and bolters could use it, but its not my favorite addition mechanically. I'm always a little fearful of "stand still to shoot better" kind of rules, not because they don't make sense but because they trend towards more static gameplay when models are punished for moving.
Crimson wrote: If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...
Err, none of those models can take the Crimson Fist relic bolter. Did you mean the Primaris versions?
However, you're right the Beta rule doesn't apply if you replace a Master-crafted auto bolt rifle or Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, only if you replace a normal Bolt Rifle.
Good feedback - can't be intentional.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sumilidon wrote: GW must be trying to protect its poster children from hoard armies.
If these rules go live though, Deathwatch will be awesome. Storm shields with storm bolter vets immediately come to mind.
Welcome to the most popular DW build in use since the codex.
And which never dropped outside of rapid fire anyway.
Excommunicatus wrote: While it's a welcome change, it doesn't really do anything to encourage you to actually take Chaos Space Marines as Troops.
Cultists are still vastly more efficient.
You can get 15 CSM for 40 Cultists.
It depends on what you're trying to do and this might reveal why cultists went to 5 points. Cultists require a lot more support and CSM benefit more from buffs.
That many CSM, while not likely in cover, have big durability advantages. One S4 hit kills a marine 16% of the time and a cultist 55% of the time (11% and 42% vs S3). That's not the whole picture, but you're getting a return on your investment in most cases.
At 24" 5 CSM produce 8.9 S4 hits with full rerolls. 13 Cultists get 9.8 S3. The strength advantage goes a long way - especially when VotLW takes them to wounding on 2/3/4 instead of 3/4/5.
Vastly is not the right word. The problem is having to stand still.
LunarSol wrote: Buff is a buff and bolters could use it, but its not my favorite addition mechanically. I'm always a little fearful of "stand still to shoot better" kind of rules, not because they don't make sense but because they trend towards more static gameplay when models are punished for moving.
I mean, with basic marines having a lot of heavy weapons, if you're taking marines on foot you're most probably wanting to be stationary (firing heavy weapons) and if you're taking marines mounted, you're probably going to want to be within 12" to use grav/plasma/melta/etc, so you'll be moving and getting within half range.
The way I see it, this buffs the previously not useful heavy weapon toting mixed marine units, like Sternguard and tacticals with heavy weapons. Especially sternguard! Take a squad with two lascannons and park them in cover while the rest fire those 30" range AP-2 boltguns in rapid fire. Damn.
i think this is a step in the right direction and a great sign going forward for game balance. I love the idea of balancing SM by making them use tools better (that's exactly what they do in the fluff) this gives another balance mechanic outside just points or straight up stats adjustments.
Daedalus81 wrote: DW aggressors ignore advance and fire assault weapons or move and fire heavy weapons.
I must have misunderstood the rules then, oh well. Would have been cool for intercessors.
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Asmodios wrote: i think this is a step in the right direction and a great sign going forward for game balance. I love the idea of balancing SM by making them use tools better (that's exactly what they do in the fluff) this gives another balance mechanic outside just points or straight up stats adjustments.
I think they may increase damage output first. Then they may alter survive-ability if this alone does not do the trick (which whilst it is good, it won't). Land raider crusaders sitting back and shooting up hordes for fun from range is a strangely entertaining thought though.
Daedalus81 wrote: DW aggressors ignore advance and fire assault weapons or move and fire heavy weapons.
I must have misunderstood the rules then, oh well. Would have been cool for intercessors.
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Asmodios wrote: i think this is a step in the right direction and a great sign going forward for game balance. I love the idea of balancing SM by making them use tools better (that's exactly what they do in the fluff) this gives another balance mechanic outside just points or straight up stats adjustments.
I think they may increase damage output first. Then they may alter survive-ability if this alone does not do the trick (which whilst it is good, it won't). Land raider crusaders sitting back and shooting up hordes for fun from range is a strangely entertaining thought though.
Yeah, I wasn't saying that this outright fixes SM... but I think its a step in the right direction and an interesting way to go about it. I would like to see more changes like this vs simple points adjustments. I will also take small incremental changes over wild swings in power. Keep slowly buffing bad units till they feel just right
Asmodios wrote: i think this is a step in the right direction and a great sign going forward for game balance. I love the idea of balancing SM by making them use tools better (that's exactly what they do in the fluff) this gives another balance mechanic outside just points or straight up stats adjustments.
I think they may increase damage output first. Then they may alter survive-ability if this alone does not do the trick (which whilst it is good, it won't). Land raider crusaders sitting back and shooting up hordes for fun from range is a strangely entertaining thought though.
You mean, actually doing what they do in fluff? Yeah, that's pretty strange thought about SM in most of 40K editions
Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.
Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.
1) It's a buff for arguably the worst unit in the game at the moment (basic Space Marines)
2) It's a superb buff for Terminators and Bikers...perhaps not the right buff, but anything to make them vaguely worth taking is a plus, so I'll allow it.
3) It unfortunately buffs the units which were already better than basic Space Marines just as much.
4) It makes Assault Marines even worse, something I wasn't sure was possible.
5) It's a much larger buff to normal Space Marines who have more access to things like hurricane bolters, etc.
6) It's nice to see the buff impact vehicles, particularly since no Marine vehicles (outside dreads) gain Chapter Traits, so it's a nice little something.
7) Some armies gain even more from it, such as Thousand Sons....that many additional -2 bolter shells is a HUGE buff compared to normal bolters.
The main issue for me...is that while this helps with obnoxious armies like Orks, it equally makes any Toughness 3 army that much worse. Bolt guns are already efficient at killing Eldar. I feel the power swing between my all-Craftworld force and my buddy's Dark Angels may be pretty huge.
Generally I think it's a sloppy fix, but a needed buff to marines which are in a bad spot. However, in a game more "moar moar moar dice", this may be quite strong vs. armies with normal infantry models on the table.
Asmodios wrote: i think this is a step in the right direction and a great sign going forward for game balance. I love the idea of balancing SM by making them use tools better (that's exactly what they do in the fluff) this gives another balance mechanic outside just points or straight up stats adjustments.
I agree. Sternguard vets are now only 15pts more per squad of 5... in return they get 30" -2ap weapon that now fires two shots if they sit back and hold an objective.
4) It makes Assault Marines even worse, something I wasn't sure was possible.
Yes, but progress is progress. Maybe they can get a +2A with chainswords when charging. Rhinos got a bit more useful so maybe people will be less shy about using them to get assault marines stuck in.
The overall good thing about all of this is that GW recognizes an issue exists and is willing to fix it outside of points.
The main issue for me...is that while this helps with obnoxious armies like Orks, it equally makes any Toughness 3 army that much worse. Bolt guns are already efficient at killing Eldar. I feel the power swing between my all-Craftworld force and my buddy's Dark Angels may be pretty huge.
Marines haven't been absolutely trouncing Eldar with bolters though and they certainly needed it to compete with IS.
this may be quite strong vs. armies with normal infantry models on the table.
Given that hordes backed by knights are largely dominant I can't see this as a bad thing.
torblind wrote: In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.
As anyone who has served in the military can tell you, when you are firing while stationary, you do not gain the ability to fire more accurately at long range. Instead, when you hold down the trigger the gun starts firing more bullets.
In fact, the only thing that makes your gun fire more bullets than standing stationary is when a guy runs at you waving a sword - then your gun starts firing FOUR times as fast!
I can tell you quite the opposite. Not only does moving make for less accurate fire, it implies that you're moving to your next piece of cover or concealment. If you're doing things properly then you're doing so while your counterparts fire from their own supported and concealed positions; a favor which you immediately return as soon as you take a stable firing position so that they can then move ahead as well. There isn't a marksman in the world who would be equally accurate on the move as they would in some kind of supported firing position.
Not that this rule really represents accuracy, but there is no question that you are able to place more shots more accurately when stationary rather than moving through the open. Maybe you meant that being stationary does not increase your rate of fire?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I'd like a heavy bolter version, mostly because I love nothing better than kitting all my long fangs out will heavy bolters, they just look so cool.
You wouldn't need a separate rule for HBs. Just add a caveat to Bolter Discipline that allows ASTARTES to treat HBs as RF2 (b/c RF3 might be a bit much with all the rule combine) That's 4 shots if Stationary or 4 shots at 18" with no -1 to hit. Heck even if you had to move and weren't within half range, 2 shots that hit on 3+ is about the same as 3 shots at 4+, but you got to move
Asmodios wrote: i think this is a step in the right direction and a great sign going forward for game balance. I love the idea of balancing SM by making them use tools better (that's exactly what they do in the fluff) this gives another balance mechanic outside just points or straight up stats adjustments.
I think they may increase damage output first. Then they may alter survive-ability if this alone does not do the trick (which whilst it is good, it won't). Land raider crusaders sitting back and shooting up hordes for fun from range is a strangely entertaining thought though.
You mean, actually doing what they do in fluff? Yeah, that's pretty strange thought about SM in most of 40K editions
Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.
Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.
What are sternguard for 200?
Sternguard for 200...
I got it close so
Sternguard SGT with a stormbolter + special issue boltgun
6 Vets with special issue boltgun
2 Vets with combi plasma
1 vet with a plasma cannon
Excommunicatus wrote: The Rapid Fire rules were, IIRC, always, always, always preceded by some bumpf about advancing and 'shooting from the hip' vs. being stationary and being able to take better aim.
For clarity, I'm not arguing that's realistic. I wouldn't know. I will say however that if you play a game featuring Daemons, sentient fungus, Elves and fish-people, realism probably isn't actually uppermost in your mind.
Wish people would stop that excuse. You do know you can have all those AND it make actually sense? IT just requires professionals writing stuff.
So where are my Guardsmen punching planets to death?
The datasheet is called 'Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken'
Jokes aside, in the same way as when discussing movies, the fact that the setting is fantastic does not mean consistency (different thing from realism) should not be important. In case of a quite abstract ruleset, perhaps not the focus, but important anyway.
As Luciferan and other pointed out anyway, I am pretty sure the old rule implied that the range "gained" while stationary was the effective range the weapon could operate at. Same thing for the rate of fire.
I'll post what I said in the power armor problem thread : I am thinking that marines in general are in a much better place.
This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.
This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.
Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)
Ravenwing got far better as well, grey knights just need that rule on base on all of their units no matter what.
If I would add anything it would be if the model is within 1/4 range you may fire an additional time in addition to the other rapid fire range. So a Combibolter at 6" would be 5 shots, instead of just 4. (increasing it by 1 not 2!)
This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.
Xenomancers wrote: If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.
You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.
Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.
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I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.
To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.
A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.
Wow - it's almost like they could have written it like you did and everyone would immediately understand. I see now what they ment - but it has about 3x more writing than necessary.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I'd like a heavy bolter version, mostly because I love nothing better than kitting all my long fangs out will heavy bolters, they just look so cool.
You wouldn't need a separate rule for HBs. Just add a caveat to Bolter Discipline that allows ASTARTES to treat HBs as RF2 (b/c RF3 might be a bit much with all the rule combine)
That's 4 shots if Stationary or 4 shots at 18" with no -1 to hit.
Heck even if you had to move and weren't within half range, 2 shots that hit on 3+ is about the same as 3 shots at 4+, but you got to move
Done
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How about we simplify things and just turn heavy bolters into RF2 weapons without the need for a special rule?
I mean, would it break any other HB user? is anyone even TAKING HBs these days anyway unless on a unit they otherwise want and are forced to?
All the benefits of your idea, without adding yet another caveat that changes things at random.
(I've said this change would be good before 8th even dropped, but with the new context its even more relevant)
Excommunicatus wrote: Also, for the vast majority of us shooting from the hip vs. being stationary and aiming better is plausible.
Hipfire, is anyways a no go with any weapon that has recoil really. (E.g Assult rifles or you know bolters). Exception would be lasguns since they would not really have recoil.
To my knowledge there is not one csm model atm that uses the fething ironsights.
WHy don't they add it so that any units with close combat weapons and a pistol gain +1 attack on charge or +1 attack. Got two close combat weapons +2 attacks, got the same type of close combat + 3 attacks.
Asherian Command wrote: I'll post what I said in the power armor problem thread : I am thinking that marines in general are in a much better place.
This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.
This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.
Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)
Ravenwing got far better as well, grey knights just need that rule on base on all of their units no matter what.
If I would add anything it would be if the model is within 1/4 range you may fire an additional time in addition to the other rapid fire range. So a Combibolter at 6" would be 5 shots, instead of just 4. (increasing it by 1 not 2!)
This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.
You are wrong. The last thing marines need is losing the ability to move to maximize damage. They are already forced to deploy in a MFing ball to do decent damage. This is basically a rule that will come into play so little it will be just like aggressors double shot mode basically never coming into play. Double shots if you stand still only really works with long range weapons and on durable units. Marines have nether with PA or a bolter. If it affects SIA DW can increase the range of their weapons and sterngaurd get get 30 inch range which is much more likely to be in range than 24" (considering most deployments start 24" apart). GW just so afraid to make marines actually decent.
Excommunicatus wrote: Also, for the vast majority of us shooting from the hip vs. being stationary and aiming better is plausible.
Hipfire, is anyways a no go with any weapon that has recoil really. (E.g Assult rifles or you know bolters). Exception would be lasguns since they would not really have recoil.
To my knowledge there is not one csm model atm that uses the fething ironsights.
No wonder my cultists did outperform them.
I don't think this reasoning really applies to half-ton super-soldiers wearing armour with automatic stabilisers, and using a HUD with a weapon-linked targeting reticule showing exactly where the gun is pointing. If I remember correctly, the ironsights are actually meant to be a back-up to the autosenses, not the primary aiming method.
They can pretty much point the weapon wherever, know exactly where it is aiming, and know they can land shots around that point with a predictable margin of error. Marine shooting is better compared to a modern armoured vehicle than a modern soldier.
The new rules represent that increased ability rather nicely I reckon.
You are wrong. The last thing marines need is losing the ability to move to maximize damage
Where am I saying that? If anything i specifically mention intercessors being definably worse.
Regular tacts aren't going to see improvement at all even with this rule.
Sternguard, terminators, and land raider crusader are now far better. Tact marines no, intercessors? Yes, Intercessors are now far better with this rule.
This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.
This rule change has a knock-on effect. 5 tacs with a heavy would fire the heavy and have a small handful of bolter shots. Now there is incentive, because all those spare bodies can be fully effective without moving too much.
This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.
34 points is pretty ok for a fistanator. Bolter Drill nets you a nice bit of extra dakka on 10 of them. I'm sure the are other combinations to be uncovered. Heretics certainly benefit more here.
Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)
Bikes were already capable of getting within 12", so what this actually offers them is flexibility of positioning, which incidentally is incredibly useful for harassment. What a day when bikes are viable.
This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.
They will need a fix, but easy enough to counts as until that day comes.
Xenomancers wrote: If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.
You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.
Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.
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I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.
To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.
A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.
I really don't see how they could POSSIBLY be more clear about this.
The amount of people managing to feth up reading this made me lose another sliver of hope for humanity from the nothing that remains.
It's simply a matter of getting too excited and not reading it properly. Your reaction seems a bit ... over the top. For both of you.
At the same time, people who want to play wargames should be expected to be able to read 11 line of text and getting an accurate reading of the rules contained there! It's not rocket science. And i'm sure people feel like this is because of case like that that we get a constant dumbing down of the rules, so they're, I feel, correct to be angry like this.
This is a much more reasonable way to handle improving space marine that anything that was suggested in the "The Power Armor Problem" thread. There might be some problems with it, as with any rules change, but I'm grateful GW decided to take this with small buffs.
This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.
This rule change has a knock-on effect. 5 tacs with a heavy would fire the heavy and have a small handful of bolter shots. Now there is incentive, because all those spare bodies can be fully effective without moving too much.
This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.
34 points is pretty ok for a fistanator. Bolter Drill nets you a nice bit of extra dakka on 10 of them. I'm sure the are other combinations to be uncovered. Heretics certainly benefit more here.
Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)
Bikes were already capable of getting within 12", so what this actually offers them is flexibility of positioning, which incidentally is incredibly useful for harassment. What a day when bikes are viable.
This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.
They will need a fix, but easy enough to counts as until that day comes.
Agreed to all point.
This is a much more reasonable way to handle improving space marine that anything that was suggested in the "Problem with Power Armor" thread. There might be some problems with it, as with any rules change, but I'm grateful GW decided to take this with small buffs.
Still doesn't address the chapter tactics, knights, etc. (Which is what that thread is about) Which has been the biggest problem for marines for a while this is a great rule but it would help marines till we get rules that supplement the units desperately needing it. This does nothing for the Non-bolters units at all, it makes base units great, but scouts are now an even more valuable troop unit, which is probably the opposite of what GW wants. (Which is easily remedied remove Adeptus Astartes Keyword from scouts and instead have Neophyte or a catchall which prevents scouts from having bolter drills, these are new recruits not veterans).
If they do similar stuff for 'veteran' and give them a special rule it will hopefully make marines far more valuable.
So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.
SemperMortis wrote: So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.
Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.
SemperMortis wrote: So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.
Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.
Plus marines aren't very efficient, to begin with.
This is a much more reasonable way to handle improving space marine that anything that was suggested in the "Problem with Power Armor" thread. There might be some problems with it, as with any rules change, but I'm grateful GW decided to take this with small buffs.
Still doesn't address the chapter tactics, knights, etc. (Which is what that thread is about) Which has been the biggest problem for marines for a while this is a great rule but it would help marines till we get rules that supplement the units desperately needing it. This does nothing for the Non-bolters units at all, it makes base units great, but scouts are now an even more valuable troop unit, which is probably the opposite of what GW wants. (Which is easily remedied remove Adeptus Astartes Keyword from scouts and instead have Neophyte or a catchall which prevents scouts from having bolter drills, these are new recruits not veterans).
If they do similar stuff for 'veteran' and give them a special rule it will hopefully make marines far more valuable.
I'm sorry, I was under the impression that hordes were the biggest problem. I mean, that's certainly all I keep hearing about in the 40+ pages about how terrible space marines are. This seems to help with that, especially when combined with the crimson fist chapter tactic, but I guess all that doesn't count (like any advantage SM get).
Also, it's hilarious how people get upset about scouts when that problem is 100% on the laps of the players. I remember the threads getting angry about Scouts because how dare scouts only be as good as a guardsmen, then GW made the change and SURPRISE, they end up invalidating tacticals! It was almost like scouts had a reason to be WS/BS 3!
Seems like a nice little buff - reasonably well thought out for a beta rule. In practice anything that isn't a SIA stormbolter is probably going to notice a defensive buff rather than offensive, as you are better able to hug cover (just like 2nd ed marines).
One point though - "The firing model remained stationary during its previous Movement phase" - how do you all think this interacts with movement in the psychic phase? Warptime is a move as though it were the movement phase, so is probably not a loophole, but gate of infinity seems legit. GK strike squad maxed out and using psybolts/astral aim might be good enough to get GK back on the table as a patrol allied detachment.
SemperMortis wrote: So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.
Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.
Plus marines aren't very efficient, to begin with.
Well they should be, but GW have too many Eldar fan boys. IG maybe top tier but that was either a mistake or coincidence.
This change may have made assault centurions a viable alternative to boltstorm aggressors. With hurricane bolters and double flamers they match aggressors that move while out of flamer range, and have nearly the same effectiveness as standing aggressors if they get in flame range. This isn't model per model, this is point for point. 3 assault cents have nearly the same shooting capacity as 6 aggressors but are better against nearly everything in CC because their drills don't get a negative hit modifier. If you can get them close, these dudes can wreck a bubblewrap and throw down some considerable hate on what is being wrapped.
SemperMortis wrote: So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.
Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.
Plus marines aren't very efficient, to begin with.
Well they should be, but GW have too many Eldar fan boys. IG maybe top tier but that was either a mistake or coincidence.
The fact that there are tiers at all is the mistake. You should be able to take on any army with any other army and the deciding factor should be player skill.
torblind wrote: In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.
As anyone who has served in the military can tell you, when you are firing while stationary, you do not gain the ability to fire more accurately at long range. Instead, when you hold down the trigger the gun starts firing more bullets.
In fact, the only thing that makes your gun fire more bullets than standing stationary is when a guy runs at you waving a sword - then your gun starts firing FOUR times as fast!
I can tell you quite the opposite. Not only does moving make for less accurate fire, it implies that you're moving to your next piece of cover or concealment. If you're doing things properly then you're doing so while your counterparts fire from their own supported and concealed positions; a favor which you immediately return as soon as you take a stable firing position so that they can then move ahead as well. There isn't a marksman in the world who would be equally accurate on the move as they would in some kind of supported firing position.
Not that this rule really represents accuracy, but there is no question that you are able to place more shots more accurately when stationary rather than moving through the open. Maybe you meant that being stationary does not increase your rate of fire?
I'm fairly sure Scotsman was being sarcastic here.
SemperMortis wrote: So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.
Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.
Plus marines aren't very efficient, to begin with.
Well they should be, but GW have too many Eldar fan boys. IG maybe top tier but that was either a mistake or coincidence.
The fact that there are tiers at all is the mistake. You should be able to take on any army with any other army and the deciding factor should be player skill.
Never said there should be tiers but Eldar have 'always' been right at the top, more so than any other faction.
Once again GW doesn't think about scaling (Biker Vets with Storm Bolters) or other weapons (Heavy Bolters, Carbines, Stalker variants...), and moreover just sticks them to being a camping army like they already were designed as.
As others have said, it's not going to change things that much, but it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully the first of several small, incremental buffs to marines. Maybe we'll get one that helps them survive a bit more efficiently next. The biggest thing is seeing that GW is aware that there's a problem, and is willing to do across the board rules fixes.
I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game.
The reasons why I think is the whole
"ignore what rapid fire does"
Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon.
I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.
That's part and parcel of GW rules unfortunately and one of my biggest qualms with the way 40K in general is handled (don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game, but my version is heavily house ruled). I do have a sneaking feeling though we'll see some more marine "fixes" if only to justify a new Marine codex in the next 12-18 months.
ThatMG wrote: I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game. The reasons why I think is the whole "ignore what rapid fire does" Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon. I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.
It's truly inelegant. Think about armies like the DG, with 2 rules layered one over the other. I mean it could be for the greater good but it's a sign of how clueless and aimless the design team is, and especially how much clueless and aimless was in the moment the ruleset for 8th was written. This is reflected too in patch-rules like the one for Russes, a clear indication of how much they botched the transition from area effects to D6 for large cannons. Albeit I think that part of the complication could be due to the fact that we are living in a transition period concerning marines.
ThatMG wrote: I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game.
The reasons why I think is the whole
"ignore what rapid fire does"
Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon.
I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.
It's truly inelegant. I mean it could be for the greater good but it's a sign of how clueless and aimless the design team is, and especially how much clueless and aimless was in the moment the ruleset for 8th was written.
Think about armies like the DG, with 2 rules layered one over the other.
Albeit I think that part of the complication is the fact that we are living in a transition period concerning marines.
It's better than having to wait for a new edition.
ThatMG wrote: I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game.
The reasons why I think is the whole
"ignore what rapid fire does"
Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon.
I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.
It's truly inelegant. I mean it could be for the greater good but it's a sign of how clueless and aimless the design team is, and especially how much clueless and aimless was in the moment the ruleset for 8th was written.
Think about armies like the DG, with 2 rules layered one over the other.
Albeit I think that part of the complication is the fact that we are living in a transition period concerning marines.
It's better than having to wait for a new edition.
A new edition might not be a bad idea actually. Easily consolidate all the changes into only a couple documents, and re-write problematic rules (looking at you, Ynarri).
ThatMG wrote: I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game.
The reasons why I think is the whole
"ignore what rapid fire does"
Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon.
I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.
It's truly inelegant. I mean it could be for the greater good but it's a sign of how clueless and aimless the design team is, and especially how much clueless and aimless was in the moment the ruleset for 8th was written.
Think about armies like the DG, with 2 rules layered one over the other.
Albeit I think that part of the complication is the fact that we are living in a transition period concerning marines.
It's better than having to wait for a new edition.
A new edition might not be a bad idea actually. Easily consolidate all the changes into only a couple documents, and re-write problematic rules (looking at you, Ynarri).
I think they have to see more. It's pretty clear that they are slooowly awakening to everything that is fundamentally missing or it has been gravely mishandled.
I understand your intention but it's not with this design team. I mean it could happen, but it would then be like 7th was for 6th.
Can't wait to see how much this affects the meta. The sheer scope of this buff is the most impressive part. Who knows what long forgotten units and combos may now come back and see some play.
We aren't even 2 years into 8th. We don't need a 9th edition, we need GW to continue to do what they are doing and tinker with the current rules. The main issue is that they need to consolidate where you get the rules from. Putting such a change in a monthly magazine right after CA came out shows the problem with GW maintaining large portions of the rules in scattered physical formats.
w1zard wrote: I really wish they would leave rules changes out of white dwarf. White dwarf should be a hobbying magazine and not a rules/points update like CA.
Now I feel like I have to buy this issue of WD to play marines.
Yeah, they need to post things like this one their website. GW is totally trying force us to buy copies of their magazine.
We need better stratagems for marines in general along with more specific unit types, devastators, tacticals, sternguard, etc. Right now its only primaris units and those don't seem to make them any better at all.
I agree with whom ever said "The design team seems to be wandering aimlessly." IT seems to run true with some of their changes in CA.
If anything they should make an online fully free compendium of all their changes for 8th. Just not points costs. This way we can have substantial changes other than an FAQ. It would take more work but the fans have already paid for most things.
Chapter approved needs to be totally ditched at a source for rules changes and cost changes, keep it for adding new content but that's it, any and all rules changes and cost changes get moved to each armies relevent FAQ/Errata, paying for fixes to a poorly thought out and maintained system is just pure stupudity, if people insist on paying for patches then they are part of the problem.
Formosa wrote: Chapter approved needs to be totally ditched at a source for rules changes and cost changes, keep it for adding new content but that's it, any and all rules changes and cost changes get moved to each armies relevent FAQ/Errata, paying for fixes to a poorly thought out and maintained system is just pure stupudity, if people insist on paying for patches then they are part of the problem.
w1zard wrote: I really wish they would leave rules changes out of white dwarf. White dwarf should be a hobbying magazine and not a rules/points update like CA.
Now I feel like I have to buy this issue of WD to play marines.
Why? It's posted on Warhammer community for free.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Formosa wrote: Chapter approved needs to be totally ditched at a source for rules changes and cost changes, keep it for adding new content but that's it, any and all rules changes and cost changes get moved to each armies relevent FAQ/Errata, paying for fixes to a poorly thought out and maintained system is just pure stupudity, if people insist on paying for patches then they are part of the problem.
No thanks.
Chapter Approved should go the complete opposite direction.
Every year, the active edition should include any and all changes to core rules by reprinting the Battle primer. Instead of points changes, it should include ALL points costs.
Then keep all the same extra stuff like the missions, the narrative and open play components, etc.
Its too bad Rubrics don't have the old Slow and Purposeful anymore. Then they could move and still double tap at 24" with this. They should be able to do that.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Its too bad Rubrics don't have the old Slow and Purposeful anymore. Then they could move and still double tap at 24" with this. They should be able to do that.
100% agree. The only reason they don't is because the wording of All is Dust predated this idea. It would make them incredible.
I genuinely though Rapid Fire 1 would become Rapid Fire 2 within half range and was pretty ecstatic that marines were back in business. MFW I realised I misunderstood the rule and this changed practically nothing: a minor buff but nothing to write home about and definitely not something that will Make Astartes Great Again... :(
w1zard wrote: I really wish they would leave rules changes out of white dwarf. White dwarf should be a hobbying magazine and not a rules/points update like CA.
Now I feel like I have to buy this issue of WD to play marines.
Why? It's posted on Warhammer community for free.
All of the relevant rules updates that appear in every issue of WD are going to be posted online for free? I was under the assumption that this was just a "sneak peak" picture of the rule to generate hype.
Over the years, I've always thought that bolters need a boost as Marine armies are usually rather mediocre.
This change is a bit too much if you ask me.
But now I'll give my GK another go.
w1zard wrote: I really wish they would leave rules changes out of white dwarf. White dwarf should be a hobbying magazine and not a rules/points update like CA.
Now I feel like I have to buy this issue of WD to play marines.
Why? It's posted on Warhammer community for free.
All of the relevant rules updates that appear in every issue of WD are going to be posted online for free? I was under the assumption that this was just a "sneak peak" picture of the rule to generate hype.
Way to move the goalposts. This rule is on WHC. Others won’t be. No-one can predict the future and say all WD rules will be reprinted online. We know that meatier stuff like Crimson Fists isn’t online. But a Beta rule they want feedback from everyone on? Makes sense to post it online.
I may be eight pages late to this party, but as someone who already runs terminators in their current state, I for one welcome this boon. Hopefully, we get to keep some benefit from this rule when it leaves beta.
A new edition might not be a bad idea actually. Easily consolidate all the changes into only a couple documents, and re-write problematic rules (looking at you, Ynarri).
Oh don't worry, 2020/2021 will get here soon enough.
Evidence:
Rulebook editions
Rogue Trader (1987)
Second edition (1993)
Third edition (1998)
Fourth edition (2004)
Fifth edition (2008)
Sixth edition (2012)
Seventh edition (2014)
Eighth edition (2017)
Ginjitzu wrote: I may be eight pages late to this party, but as someone who already runs terminators in their current state, I for one welcome this boon. Hopefully, we get to keep some benefit from this rule when it leaves beta.
Termies are still overpriced.
The new rule makes Tacticals and Primaris better, and I will stay with both not with Termies.
I love this change, and I think it will do exciting things to the meta. Loyal 32, for example, are going to get flensed. Hordes of all kinds are now far more vulnerable, which is exactly what needed to happen.
Squads of ten IF intercessors can now drop between 1 and 5 mortal wounds on a knight at 30" range.
Ten-man Intercessor vet squads can now pump out 40 shots down range
I'm talking about ten man intercessor squads ffs. I mean, that in itself is a sea change.
10 Intercessors vs 5 hellblasters (170pts vs 165pts) is pretty close now against a lot of targets, at long range. Do you want 20 S4 -1 D1, or 5 S8 -4 D2? That's not a non-trivial decision, especially factoring in things like harlequins, wave serpents, drones, boyz, etc.
The only problem is with special ammo. I think it needs to be exempted from this rule. Make it so DW can still access the rule, but if they want to swtich to SIA, old RF rules still apply.
grouchoben wrote: I love this change, and I think it will do exciting things to the meta. Loyal 32, for example, are going to get flensed. Hordes of all kinds are now far more vulnerable, which is exactly what needed to happen.
Squads of ten IF intercessors can now drop between 1 and 5 mortal wounds on a knight at 30" range.
Ten-man Intercessor vet squads can now pump out 40 shots down range
I'm talking about ten man intercessor squads ffs. I mean, that in itself is a sea change.
10 Intercessors vs 5 hellblasters (170pts vs 165pts) is pretty close now against a lot of targets, at long range. Do you want 20 S4 -1 D1, or 5 S8 -4 D2? That's not a non-trivial decision, especially factoring in things like harlequins, wave serpents, drones, boyz, etc.
The only problem is with special ammo. I think it needs to be exempted from this rule. Make it so DW can still access the rule, but if they want to swtich to SIA, old RF rules still apply.
I am split, considering Chaos does not get any primaris, luckily and sadly. (one would imagine that they would pillage and loot imperial weapons but he, let's just leave it on the battlefield, like landspeeders,etc).....
Regardless it was necessary change.
The only problem is with special ammo. I think it needs to be exempted from this rule. Make it so DW can still access the rule, but if they want to swtich to SIA, old RF rules still apply.
Seems redundant, as the new bolter rules already include the Rapid Fire rule.
I love this change, and I think it will do exciting things to the meta. Loyal 32, for example, are going to get flensed. Hordes of all kinds are now far more vulnerable, which is exactly what needed to have.
Indeed, Orks, Nids and also Druhkari will have a harder vs. Marines. Infantry will die like flies and the Drukhari vehicles are even more in danger.
I figured that a Serpent (with shield) getting targeted by 10 bolter Marines with 40 shots will inflict just 2 wounds on average. Still a laugh.
I love this change, and I think it will do exciting things to the meta. Loyal 32, for example, are going to get flensed. Hordes of all kinds are now far more vulnerable, which is exactly what needed to have.
Indeed, Orks, Nids and also Druhkari will have a harder vs. Marines. Infantry will die like flies and the Drukhari vehicles are even more in danger.
I figured that a Serpent (with shield) getting targeted by 10 bolter Marines with 40 shots will inflict just 2 wounds on average. Still a laugh.
10 bolter marines still only get 20 shots. They just get it at longer range if they don't move.
It's honestly not a huge change.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Crimson Fists Indomitus Crusaders, though. That's a bit better.
ThatMG wrote: I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game.
The reasons why I think is the whole
"ignore what rapid fire does"
Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon.
I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.
It's truly inelegant. Think about armies like the DG, with 2 rules layered one over the other.
I mean it could be for the greater good but it's a sign of how clueless and aimless the design team is, and especially how much clueless and aimless was in the moment the ruleset for 8th was written. This is reflected too in patch-rules like the one for Russes, a clear indication of how much they botched the transition from area effects to D6 for large cannons.
Albeit I think that part of the complication could be due to the fact that we are living in a transition period concerning marines.
I think a big part of the problem is that every weapon in 40k is shoehorned into one of 4 weapon types. It seems like it would be much more logical to have 'Rapid Fire', 'Assault' etc. be special rules for weapons, rather than weapon categories.
That way, you can have weapons that don't fit into those 4 niches simply by giving them their own rules.
In this case, bolt weapons would replace 'Rapid Fire' with 'Bolter Drill'. Instead, we have this very awkward and messy switch.
Alot of people seem to be misinterpreting the rule.
To be clear, Rapid fire weapons usually get to fire twice when within half their range.
The new rule means that marines with rapid fire weapons get to fire them twice in the following situations: They are within half range / they did not move / they are a terminator, bike, centurion or vehicle.
These do not stack with each other or the normal rapid fire rules, unless using a stratagem or other special rule a bolter will only ever fire 2 shots, a storm bolter 4 shots and a hurrican bolter 12 shots.
This rule just give the marines more opportunity to rapid fire, generally giving them all extra shot between 12"-24" inches that they usually only get within 12".
It is a buff to marines anti-horde firepower at medium range, makes no change to their firepower at close range and in my opinion is a small but welcome buff that won't really alter the game or meta much.
Not sure, with this crimson fists and deathwatch may be punishing enough to hordes that they could shift the meta slightly more to the elite direction.
WisdomLS wrote: Alot of people seem to be misinterpreting the rule.
To be clear, Rapid fire weapons usually get to fire twice when within half their range.
The new rule means that marines with rapid fire weapons get to fire them twice in the following situations: They are within half range / they did not move / they are a terminator, bike, centurion or vehicle.
These do not stack with each other or the normal rapid fire rules, unless using a stratagem or other special rule a bolter will only ever fire 2 shots, a storm bolter 4 shots and a hurrican bolter 12 shots.
This rule just give the marines more opportunity to rapid fire, generally giving them all extra shot between 12"-24" inches that they usually only get within 12".
It is a buff to marines anti-horde firepower at medium range, makes no change to their firepower at close range and in my opinion is a small but welcome buff that won't really alter the game or meta much.
Many thanks for the clarification.
So Marines at 12''-24'' range are buffed as are Termies, Bikers and others.
torblind wrote: unrealistic setting still requires plausible game mechanics..
Like psychic powers and beings made of magic and cobwebs?
I would say 1/10 of slavic magic lore works like that. Rest is sacrifice, often human and name magic. Seems very realistic to me.
Considering there exist daemons that literally enforce daemonic contracts in 40k i wouldn't be surprised if they stole more real life lore and slapped it into 40k
Formosa wrote: Chapter approved needs to be totally ditched at a source for rules changes and cost changes, keep it for adding new content but that's it, any and all rules changes and cost changes get moved to each armies relevent FAQ/Errata, paying for fixes to a poorly thought out and maintained system is just pure stupudity, if people insist on paying for patches then they are part of the problem.
I agree. I also think that the design team knows very well what they are doing. They are cutting up the rules and spreading the updates, and keeping some stuff bad, just so people buy more stuff. Making people buy stuff, because you make great and fun stuff, is nice. Making stuff bad, just so people get traped and have to buy more, is EA tier of doing stuff.
My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.
However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.
Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.
Blackie wrote: My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.
However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.
Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.
Blackie wrote: My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.
However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.
Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.
How would a single Crusader kill 30 orks?
28 bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots go a good ways for that. Fragstorm launchers and a multi-melta help out.
Blackie wrote: My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.
However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.
Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.
How would a single Crusader kill 30 orks?
28 bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots go a good ways for that. Fragstorm launchers and a multi-melta help out.
Let's say 45 shots, for convenience. 30 hit. That's without rolling to wound or the Orks saving any.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This rule is a welcome boost but you're not going to have marines hosing squads off the table.
ThatMG wrote: I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game.
The reasons why I think is the whole
"ignore what rapid fire does"
Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon.
I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.
Not really, they can't just change whole dynamics of the game for an army, all they are doing is adding a new rule here, that being 'our rapid fire ability is better than other armies' its the only way they'll bring balance is by tweaking the game like this. The only unfair thing about this is that they aren't doing it for other armies, which they should. But cut the bull, if your army got a new rule you would be in favour of these changes. I mean if they did these small changes for every army, bringing all armies up to par at a small incremental level we will see balance or as close as we can get to balance as one army is always going to do great against one and gak against another, we'll never have true balance but I'll settle for this.
Plus this is a fluffy rule, bolters are supposed to be the best tech the Mechanicum can give them, they should reflect that, I mean the Emperor did invent them.
I think my only problem is that I wish this issue had been fixed with defense over offense. You know you're in a problematic game state where "well, what if 100 guardsmen charge 20" across the table at you and you need to kill them in ONE TURN" is a legitimate concern that HAS AN ANSWER
I just wish they'd dial back the murderiness of 8th ed overall. The game is basically a 2-turn affair at this point.
the_scotsman wrote: I think my only problem is that I wish this issue had been fixed with defense over offense. You know you're in a problematic game state where "well, what if 100 guardsmen charge 20" across the table at you and you need to kill them in ONE TURN" is a legitimate concern that HAS AN ANSWER
I just wish they'd dial back the murderiness of 8th ed overall. The game is basically a 2-turn affair at this point.
I completely agree we need defense far more than output, an extra wound or something along those lines.
the_scotsman wrote: I think my only problem is that I wish this issue had been fixed with defense over offense. You know you're in a problematic game state where "well, what if 100 guardsmen charge 20" across the table at you and you need to kill them in ONE TURN" is a legitimate concern that HAS AN ANSWER
I just wish they'd dial back the murderiness of 8th ed overall. The game is basically a 2-turn affair at this point.
I completely agree we need defense far more than output, an extra wound or something along those lines.
Lol. People would still whinge about an extra wound, because "muh everything is D2 in the whooole gaaaame" - you already hear this from people who like the primaris boys.
All I know is that when I play my Thousand Sons, they feel about what Space Marines should be - they die to heavy guns, because lets be honest a marine is a medium infantryman in this game now, but when small arms come their way they feel like walking tanks.
I completely agree we need defense far more than output, an extra wound or something along those lines.
And this is why Primaris marines exists. I think that after this and all other buffs they have gotten, the standard bolt rifle Intercessors are in a pretty good place. Now they just need to look into underperforming Primaris options like all other bolt rifle variants and the poor Reivers.
It still bugs me though, how insanely much better DW marines are than the vanilla ones. They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
WisdomLS wrote: Alot of people seem to be misinterpreting the rule.
To be clear, Rapid fire weapons usually get to fire twice when within half their range.
The new rule means that marines with rapid fire weapons get to fire them twice in the following situations: They are within half range / they did not move / they are a terminator, bike, centurion or vehicle.
These do not stack with each other or the normal rapid fire rules, unless using a stratagem or other special rule a bolter will only ever fire 2 shots, a storm bolter 4 shots and a hurrican bolter 12 shots.
This rule just give the marines more opportunity to rapid fire, generally giving them all extra shot between 12"-24" inches that they usually only get within 12".
It is a buff to marines anti-horde firepower at medium range, makes no change to their firepower at close range and in my opinion is a small but welcome buff that won't really alter the game or meta much.
So, just to be clear this new rule doesn't compliment and buff Rapid Fire 'bolt' weapons...it basically just extends the range that a SM/CSM can use the Rapid Fire function (when one of the three conditions is met) when firing 'bolt' weapons?
So, just to be clear this new rule doesn't compliment Rapid Fire 'bolt' weapons...it basically just extends the range that a SM/CSM can use Rapid Fire (when one of the three conditions is met) 'bolt' weapons?
Correct. Bolters dont magically become Storm Bolters and Storm Bolters dont magically become Hurricane Bolters-ish when the carrying model stands still.
I completely agree we need defense far more than output, an extra wound or something along those lines.
And this is why Primaris marines exists. I think that after this and all other buffs they have gotten, the standard bolt rifle Intercessors are in a pretty good place. Now they just need to look into underperforming Primaris options like all other bolt rifle variants and the poor Reivers.
It still bugs me though, how insanely much better DW marines are than the vanilla ones. They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
Yeah but if you use normal marines with them, they are pretty much useless I find unless you are buffing them or kitting them out with stormshields etc. and you also find that only your Primaris last. Terminators are good options from normal marines I find but I'm focusing my army to be Primaris, but your right 40k armies just need tweaks until we see some sort of balance.
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.
Yeah but if you use normal marines with them, they are pretty much useless I find unless you are buffing them or kitting them out with stormshields etc. and you also find that only your Primaris last. Terminators are good options from normal marines I find but I'm focusing my army to be Primaris, but your right 40k armies just need tweaks until we see some sort of balance.
I'm pretty sure focusing your army to be Primaris is exactly what GW wants you to do.
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.
Oh wow, that's hilarious. Even if you Combat Squad them to isolate the Terminators they still don't benefit.
Way to move the goalposts. This rule is on WHC. Others won’t be. No-one can predict the future and say all WD rules will be reprinted online. We know that meatier stuff like Crimson Fists isn’t online. But a Beta rule they want feedback from everyone on? Makes sense to post it online.
Literally all the Beta rules have bee on the FAQs. This would have been no different. Just because they decide to punch something out early as a marketing exercise doesn't mean anything at all. In fact you're taking the exception to the rule and pretending it will be the rule - and that'd absurd.
wuestenfux wrote: I figured that a Serpent (with shield) getting targeted by 10 bolter Marines with 40 shots will inflict just 2 wounds on average. Still a laugh.
10 intercessor vets using the strat to go rapid fire 2, with cap & lt support, do 6 damage, or 4.54 against -1. Not earth shatteringly good, but still more respectable than a twin lascannon.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I'd like a heavy bolter version, mostly because I love nothing better than kitting all my long fangs out will heavy bolters, they just look so cool.
You wouldn't need a separate rule for HBs. Just add a caveat to Bolter Discipline that allows ASTARTES to treat HBs as RF2 (b/c RF3 might be a bit much with all the rule combine) That's 4 shots if Stationary or 4 shots at 18" with no -1 to hit. Heck even if you had to move and weren't within half range, 2 shots that hit on 3+ is about the same as 3 shots at 4+, but you got to move
Done
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How about we simplify things and just turn heavy bolters into RF2 weapons without the need for a special rule? I mean, would it break any other HB user? is anyone even TAKING HBs these days anyway unless on a unit they otherwise want and are forced to? All the benefits of your idea, without adding yet another caveat that changes things at random.
(I've said this change would be good before 8th even dropped, but with the new context its even more relevant)
Yeah, I suggested this months ago too, but some posters felt that it would indeed mess up Guard units that can have HBs. I disagreed, but that was another thread.
I just figured since Bolter Discipline is a Beta Rule that calls out Bolter weapons JUST for Astartes, it'd be a good opportunity to add just 1 sentence to that rule allowing Astates to treat HBs as RF2 and Twin HBs as RF4. That way HB are better in general AND get to benefit from Bolter Discipline. This would also add even more anti-horde for them.
wuestenfux wrote: I figured that a Serpent (with shield) getting targeted by 10 bolter Marines with 40 shots will inflict just 2 wounds on average. Still a laugh.
10 intercessor vets using the strat to go rapid fire 2, with cap & lt support, do 6 damage, or 4.54 against -1. Not earth shatteringly good, but still more respectable than a twin lascannon.
You used 3CP at minimum to accomplish that. Hardly more respectable than Lascannons.
wuestenfux wrote: I figured that a Serpent (with shield) getting targeted by 10 bolter Marines with 40 shots will inflict just 2 wounds on average. Still a laugh.
10 intercessor vets using the strat to go rapid fire 2, with cap & lt support, do 6 damage, or 4.54 against -1. Not earth shatteringly good, but still more respectable than a twin lascannon.
You used 3CP at minimum to accomplish that. Hardly more respectable than Lascannons.
I certainly agree. As an Eldar player I am not all that concerned about 10 Intercessors + Charactrers and CPs hurting my Serpents. But a few Twin Lascannons make me sweet a little. Sepent shield and Alaitoc are great, but when those hits get through, they matter. And if you are bleeding CPs to take out a Serpent instead of mowing down other, more ideal targets, that works in my favor.
Marines have great anti-tank options. But those options need to be cheaper and more accessible i.e. Meltas and MMs should be cheaper that Plasma guns and Lascannons
Sure 3CP is a stiff price to pay for that. But to be fair, even if this was the case presented, that's not what a group of intercessors with those buffs wants to shoot at.
Overall I think I like these changes but it will make SM of all flavours even more of a static gunline, that's just not very interesting. Edit: Other than bikes I guess, they now get some ability to kite people from a safer distance.
It's a decent enough buff but I'm wondering if it should've been that bolters get +1 to hit when they're in rapid fire range instead, then they'd move upfield a bit more.
Nurglitch wrote: Heavy Bolters are already some of the most cost-efficient weapons for what they do.
....no?
Really for the life of me I can't come up with a unit that chooses to use heavy bolters in a weapon slot where there are other options besides maybe Leman Russes, who take them because the alternative is Heavy Flamer or Plasma Cannon...who are not exactly paragons of efficiency in 8th.
PiñaColada wrote: It's a decent enough buff but I'm wondering if it should've been that bolters get +1 to hit when they're in rapid fire range instead, then they'd move upfield a bit more.
That's....not bad. In fact, if you applied +1 to hit across all 3 Bolter Discipline conditions, it gives the same feel as the current iteration, but still encourages you to get in RF range as it's an even bigger bonus in said range. It would also counter-act army wide -1 to hit penalties in a way
Blackie wrote: My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.
However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.
Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.
How would a single Crusader kill 30 orks?
I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.
Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.
Nurglitch wrote: Heavy Bolters are already some of the most cost-efficient weapons for what they do.
....no?
Really for the life of me I can't come up with a unit that chooses to use heavy bolters in a weapon slot where there are other options besides maybe Leman Russes, who take them because the alternative is Heavy Flamer or Plasma Cannon...who are not exactly paragons of efficiency in 8th.
Cool. I'm just talking about how the numbers break down for the average number of wounds per points caused on targets like other Space Marines. The re-jigging of the points popped them down the list compared to Rhinos and Knights.
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.
Oh wow, that's hilarious. Even if you Combat Squad them to isolate the Terminators they still don't benefit.
Well, that would be hilarious if that were the rule, but it isn't. There is no mention of having the terminator or bike keyword, it simply states if you are a terminator or biker, so DW vets in terminator armour or on bikes get the rule. I guess the bold is supposed to be a keyword (is there an actual rule that states this?) but it's certainly disputable at the moment.
Also, I think that DW should get the rule. You want a gatekeeper to stop horde armies dominating, especially with the new CA missions? Well, DW will be that gatekeeper. As it stands, it won't vastly affect most DW builds as they are typically vets with SBs that want to move. Granted, get them in cover on an objective and it will be tough to shift, but nothing wrong with that IMHO, not when paying 20pts per marine.
edit: nevermind, the veteran rules mentions them having the keyword under Mixed Unit
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.
Oh wow, that's hilarious. Even if you Combat Squad them to isolate the Terminators they still don't benefit.
Deathwatch kill teams actually benefit the most. If you add one Terminator to the team, or one biker to the team, the whole squad gets the TERMINATOR or BIKER keyword... So they can essentially double tap at all ranges with Bolters if you stick one Termie and/or biker in there.
Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators, it has
the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch
Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword;
Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators, it has
the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch
Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword;
Crimson wrote: They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.
You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?
And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.
Oh wow, that's hilarious. Even if you Combat Squad them to isolate the Terminators they still don't benefit.
Deathwatch kill teams actually benefit the most. If you add one Terminator to the team, or one biker to the team, the whole squad gets the TERMINATOR or BIKER keyword... So they can essentially double tap at all ranges with Bolters if you stick one Termie and/or biker in there.
Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators, it has
the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch
Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword;
they don't, only the individual models get the keyword...see Mixed Units.
I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.
Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.
This makes a lot of not great assumptions. If you're deepstriking 30 naked orks then that Crusader is getting double tap on you anyway. It didn't magically become awesome - that's just bad play.
Nevertheless it isn't coming anywhere near killing 30 orks on it's own.
I suspect someone has covered this already, but why aren't Rubrics on the same list with Terminators, given that they can move and fire with heavy weapons without penalty.
PiñaColada wrote: It's a decent enough buff but I'm wondering if it should've been that bolters get +1 to hit when they're in rapid fire range instead, then they'd move upfield a bit more.
That's....not bad. In fact, if you applied +1 to hit across all 3 Bolter Discipline conditions, it gives the same feel as the current iteration, but still encourages you to get in RF range as it's an even bigger bonus in said range.
It would also counter-act army wide -1 to hit penalties in a way
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I was wondering whether a better improvement might have been something like 'Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes add 1 to the Rapid Fire characteristic of all 'Bolt' weapons. So if a weapon was Rapid Fire 1, they would treat it as Rapid Fire 2. Rapid Fire 2 would become Rapid Fire 3 etc.
(I know that's not quite the right terminology, but hopefully you get what I mean.)
No it makes sense. It should also matter on distance, like if your right next to the gun 6" away you should be able to make an additional attack with that bolter So a Rapid Fire 2 becomes a 4 Attacks + 1 Attack.
I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.
Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.
This makes a lot of not great assumptions. If you're deepstriking 30 naked orks then that Crusader is getting double tap on you anyway. It didn't magically become awesome - that's just bad play.
Nevertheless it isn't coming anywhere near killing 30 orks on it's own.
So, a 300ish point model just killed 84 points of boyz...(and a painboy and KFF cuts that in half)
Twin assault cannon: 12 shots, 8 hits, 6 dead orks (yeah average says 9 hits would cause 6 orks but 5.something doesn't exist in real games, is either 5 or 6 dudes and it's more likely to be 6 than 5).
Bolters (I assumed a storm bolter in the lot): 28 shots, 19 hits, 9 or 10 wounds (again, 9.5 wounds make no sense), 8 or 9 casualties.
Grand total of 14-15 dead orks.
Unless the crusader was in rapid fire range its damage output was way lower with the older rules. Note that those orks may want to assault something else, not necessarily the crusader so it might be out of rapid fire range. It actually happened several times with my SW that deep striking units were attacking units in my deploying zone but the crusader was too far away to be in rapid fire range.
Painboy and KFFs aren't that relevant as footslogging orks aren't that scary, deep striking ones are. And those ones don't have any defensive buffs. On the other hand offensive buffs on the crusader can be easily factored in since SM usually have characters that give re-rolls anyway. Against footslogging dudes now it can kill way more orks at distance.
The crusader just costs 266 points, and it's also useful to reduce the drops with its transport capacity of 16 models. It will get his points back in a couple of turns of shooting, three at most. A full mob of 30 orks costs between 210 to 225 points, according to what weapon the nob has. We're talking about matches against hordes armies, not against imperium or aeldari soups where there's only anti tank usually and enough firepower to 1-shot a knight.
I like the idea of exploding wounds on 6s, given how bolters are supposed to work. It also has the bonus of the occasional lone SM bumping his kill-count up to 4 wounds at short range. Plus it works for DTTFE and Dakka Dakka for exploding hits.
Crusaders definitely benefit, since they can stay safely behind infantry and skill get full shooting.
Tacticals, though, I'm not convinced benefit. This doesn't make them more efficient heavy weapons bearers, and they can't leverage this nearly as well as Intercessors.
I sort of felt that Intercessors were optimal for aggressive infantry while Tacticals could sit back and use their heavy weapon and stick to cover as defensive infantry, but with the ability to rapid-fire their bolters at all ranges and the 6" extra range, I feel like Intercessors are just going to push Tacticals out of every role, and do it by just trying to buff bolters to be silly.
I really just think that Tacticals need a point or two adjustment, because a 5 or 10 point adjustment [cumulative across the squad] would improve their efficiency as weapon-bearers, and more importantly, Space Marine supporting units need to be buffed or receive cost reductions. A Predator can't compete with a Armiger or Leman Russ Commander [which is now priced in the Predator's cost class], a Vindicator is just worthlessly non-threatening, and the Space Marine special infantry is expensive and easily destroyed, since thy have expensive weapons but no survivability bonuses.
I don't really like this buff, because I feel like trying to make Space Marines fit their cost is just not as ideal an end or an approach as making their cost fit their stats.
You used 3CP at minimum to accomplish that. Hardly more respectable than Lascannons.
Expected damage from a twin lascannon is poor vs a wave serpent: 2.65 (with Lt and Cap) before the shield kicks in.
So sure, you have to spend a cp for the formation, another to elect and another everytime you want to use the strat. And sure, a WS isn't an ideal target (but it beats out expected damage from 4 lascannons, so hey as I said, respectable).
But in a standard 13/14cp marine army, that's not a bad investment to consider. It's not even the best strat/bolter combo to shoot at a WS (Siegebreaker Sternguards) but it's something that you would have laughed at before. That's what we're discussing, isn't it? What changes because of this beta rule?
I don't really like this buff, because I feel like trying to make Space Marines fit their cost is just not as ideal an end or an approach as making their cost fit their stats.
At this point, i am inclined to agree, this is well said.
13 points for 1 model that has no invulnerable save, 1 attack, 1 wound, and essentially 1 shot isn't good enough.
Personally I think there is plenty of design space but it requires a rework of the benefits provided by captains and lieutenants. If space marine INFANTRY, CAVALRY, BIKERs, and DREADNOUGHTs had innate reroll 1s to hit/wound/save, you could provide other buffs via HQs (for example, +1WS, or something) and suddenly they are absolutely worth their points. You could even give several options for buff auras per captain, similar to warlord traits, so that marines actually are generalists. (In this scenario it makes sense to take buff X, but in this game it's buff Y).
None of this will happen, of course, it's just fun to daydream.
I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.
Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.
This makes a lot of not great assumptions. If you're deepstriking 30 naked orks then that Crusader is getting double tap on you anyway. It didn't magically become awesome - that's just bad play.
Nevertheless it isn't coming anywhere near killing 30 orks on it's own.
So, a 300ish point model just killed 84 points of boyz...(and a painboy and KFF cuts that in half)
Twin assault cannon: 12 shots, 8 hits, 6 dead orks (yeah average says 9 hits would cause 6 orks but 5.something doesn't exist in real games, is either 5 or 6 dudes and it's more likely to be 6 than 5).
Bolters (I assumed a storm bolter in the lot): 28 shots, 19 hits, 9 or 10 wounds (again, 9.5 wounds make no sense), 8 or 9 casualties.
Grand total of 14-15 dead orks.
Unless the crusader was in rapid fire range its damage output was way lower with the older rules. Note that those orks may want to assault something else, not necessarily the crusader so it might be out of rapid fire range. It actually happened several times with my SW that deep striking units were attacking units in my deploying zone but the crusader was too far away to be in rapid fire range.
Painboy and KFFs aren't that relevant as footslogging orks aren't that scary, deep striking ones are. And those ones don't have any defensive buffs. On the other hand offensive buffs on the crusader can be easily factored in since SM usually have characters that give re-rolls anyway. Against footslogging dudes now it can kill way more orks at distance.
The crusader just costs 266 points, and it's also useful to reduce the drops with its transport capacity of 16 models. It will get his points back in a couple of turns of shooting, three at most. A full mob of 30 orks costs between 210 to 225 points, according to what weapon the nob has. We're talking about matches against hordes armies, not against imperium or aeldari soups where there's only anti tank usually and enough firepower to 1-shot a knight.
I sure hope you never have to play against a Leman Russ Punisher.
torblind wrote: unrealistic setting still requires plausible game mechanics..
Like psychic powers and beings made of magic and cobwebs?
I would say 1/10 of slavic magic lore works like that. Rest is sacrifice, often human and name magic. Seems very realistic to me.
The fluff for my 'soup' is, partly, an homage to stories, tales and sagas from Slavic folklore, with a specific focus on Marzanna, so I do know some amount about the subject and I would not say they are either realistic or plausible.
They are literally 'volshebnaya skazka', or fairy tales.
So why are your Guardsmen carrying lasrifles, they could just shoot heat from their noises, that's not plausible or realistic, but there are demons in the universe so its fine. Why are they in armor when their skin can deflect anything, except water?
Great new rule. It's not what I would have done, but since it extends to vehicles it goes along with what I've been trying out with my marines recently anyways. (Goofy things like running 10 Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters).
I'm really looking forward to playing more games with the beta-bolters.
. . .
The amount of misreading the rule earlier in the thread is bizarre.
Insectum7 wrote: Great new rule. It's not what I would have done, but since it extends to vehicles it goes along with what I've been trying out with my marines recently anyways. (Goofy things like running 10 Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters).
I'm really looking forward to playing more games with the beta-bolters.
. . .
The amount of misreading the rule earlier in the thread is bizarre.
Some people need to only read a rule twice to fully understand it. Some people need to read a rule 15 times to understand it. Other people need the rule spoon-fed to them.
PiñaColada wrote: It's a decent enough buff but I'm wondering if it should've been that bolters get +1 to hit when they're in rapid fire range instead, then they'd move upfield a bit more.
That's....not bad. In fact, if you applied +1 to hit across all 3 Bolter Discipline conditions, it gives the same feel as the current iteration, but still encourages you to get in RF range as it's an even bigger bonus in said range. It would also counter-act army wide -1 to hit penalties in a way
-
I was wondering whether a better improvement might have been something like 'Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes add 1 to the Rapid Fire characteristic of all 'Bolt' weapons. So if a weapon was Rapid Fire 1, they would treat it as Rapid Fire 2. Rapid Fire 2 would become Rapid Fire 3 etc.
(I know that's not quite the right terminology, but hopefully you get what I mean.)
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I kinda wish this was what the rule was. Bolt guns become RF2, Stormbolters/Twinbolters/Combi-bolters become RF3, Hurricane Bolters become RF7, etc.
It still encourages models to get within RF range, but clearly gives you more shots in the long run. And it proportionately benefits regular bolters more, since they do get to double their shots all the time (100% more), while Stormbolters only get a 50% increase. IMO, this buffs the models that need it most (regular Marines) while still giving a marginal bonus to everything else.
The only downside (if you want to call it that) is that Intercessors would get a massive bonus with this version, especially DW Interseccors.
Insectum7 wrote: Great new rule. It's not what I would have done, but since it extends to vehicles it goes along with what I've been trying out with my marines recently anyways. (Goofy things like running 10 Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters).
I'm really looking forward to playing more games with the beta-bolters.
. . .
The amount of misreading the rule earlier in the thread is bizarre.
poeple will complain and twist to fit thie narrative, there are a few on th eforum that would complain a cut of classif marines to 6 points per model would not be enough since guardsman are better due to being a point cheaper at that point.
that said i too think its an odd fix but a good one
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Crusaders definitely benefit, since they can stay safely behind infantry and skill get full shooting.
Tacticals, though, I'm not convinced benefit. This doesn't make them more efficient heavy weapons bearers, and they can't leverage this nearly as well as Intercessors.
I sort of felt that Intercessors were optimal for aggressive infantry while Tacticals could sit back and use their heavy weapon and stick to cover as defensive infantry, but with the ability to rapid-fire their bolters at all ranges and the 6" extra range, I feel like Intercessors are just going to push Tacticals out of every role, and do it by just trying to buff bolters to be silly.
I really just think that Tacticals need a point or two adjustment, because a 5 or 10 point adjustment [cumulative across the squad] would improve their efficiency as weapon-bearers, and more importantly, Space Marine supporting units need to be buffed or receive cost reductions. A Predator can't compete with a Armiger or Leman Russ Commander [which is now priced in the Predator's cost class], a Vindicator is just worthlessly non-threatening, and the Space Marine special infantry is expensive and easily destroyed, since thy have expensive weapons but no survivability bonuses.
I don't really like this buff, because I feel like trying to make Space Marines fit their cost is just not as ideal an end or an approach as making their cost fit their stats.
It's not how marines are effective. It's where they can be effective.
It also depends on whether or not tacticals can be better than scouts.
+ Have access to special
+ They get 1 special & heavy per 10
+ 2+ armor in cover - scouts pay an extra point overall for this
A 5 man can cover a good portion of no man's land in cover when they're 6" back from the line. If you just need deployment zone spreads (less of a need since DS change) then pick scouts. Otherwise I can't see the hurt in 5 man PG squads taking up cover.
It's a bit of a no brainer for CSM since it's 75 points for 5 with an autocannon.
Deathwatch kill teams actually benefit the most. If you add one Terminator to the team, or one biker to the team, the whole squad gets the TERMINATOR or BIKER keyword... So they can essentially double tap at all ranges with Bolters if you stick one Termie and/or biker in there.
Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators, it has the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword;
That's not what the Codex says. It says:
For the purposes of determining what models a vehicle can transport, Terminators have the TERMINATOR keyword, Bikers do not have the INFANTRY keyword, and instead have the BIKER keyword and Vanguard Veterans have the JUMP PACK keyword.
Emphasis added. You've quoted the Index when an update was made to the unit when the Codex released.
The unit does not gain the keywords except for transport eligibility and model count purposes. Ergo, a Deathwatch Kill Team with a Terminator or Biker does not gain the full always on benefit of Bolter Discipline, nor does the added Biker or Terminator gain that benefit as they do not have the necessary key word.
All models in this unit will only gain the Rapid Fire bonus for being at half range or for standing still. Still a benefit - backfield camper with storm bolters instead of stalkers - much more flexible and effective.
Honestly, the biggest hit to the Bolter this edition continues to be its twin barreled brother. Never worth sticking with the original when a storm is that cheap.
Bobthehero wrote: So why are your Guardsmen carrying lasrifles, they could just shoot heat from their noises, that's not plausible or realistic, but there are demons in the universe so its fine. Why are they in armor when their skin can deflect anything, except water?
Is this aimed at me? If so, you'd be better off asking GW. They wrote the Imperial Guard the way that they are, I didn't. IMO, it's for narrative purposes. But again, you'd be better off asking the people who actually make the decisions, rather than some pleb on a message board.
My point is - and always has been - that GW aims for a thin veneer of plausibility, not realism.
Remember to just send well worded emails to the GW rules team, rather than tasteless complaining, asking about the interaction of this rule and mixed units in a Kill Team. They'll eventually respond if the whole Haarkan issue is any indicator.
DarknessEternal wrote: Completely irrelevant. Bolter Marines aren't being used because bolters aren't good enough.
They aren't being used because Imperial Knights, Custode Jetbikes, and Blood Angel Captains are a thing.
Am not saying no. But lets say GW removed the smash captins from the game. doesn't matter if by making the gear not work, the stratagem work only on units and not single models etc How would the BA players suppose to play then? They would be like BT or SW. Almost a non entity.
The fluff for my 'soup' is, partly, an homage to stories, tales and sagas from Slavic folklore, with a specific focus on Marzanna, so I do know some amount about the subject and I would not say they are either realistic or plausible.
Cob webs and yeast as an anti septic are a well known "magic" cure to wounds. What is even stranger, when someone finaly did check if a mix of cobwebs of most common spiders in middle europe and bread work well for wounds, they found out that it actually does have a mild anti bacterial effect. One of the univeristies in germany even went as far as puting parts of spider DNA in to one strain of coli bacteria, and now are producing anti septic spider silk for bad healing wounds from burns etc.
DarknessEternal wrote: Completely irrelevant. Bolter Marines aren't being used because bolters aren't good enough.
They aren't being used because Imperial Knights, Custode Jetbikes, and Blood Angel Captains are a thing.
No. The choice is between marines and guarddmen (or cultists). All those units require CP to function. IG fits that role well, because they are cheap and effective. If marines can be made to be more effective then you've cut away some of that gap.
3 bikes can carry a storm bolter and 3 twin boltguns for 65. With a 14" move and no need to be within 12" they can be places where it suits their durability and still shoot well. It's 55 points for a squad of IS with commander.
16 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 4.7 // GEQ dead
When sitting at 19" the IS can't move to get to RF range.
18 * .5 * .333 * .333 = 1 wound; nothing dead
Bikes are then free to move 14" to be within 5", unload (even 24" beyond the chaff), and charge.
I would say for only 10 points more that is a suitable domination of IS and you can still amp up the bikes with specials (at the risk of losing more points when they die). This rule impact affects way more than just how a bolter kills, but how well the enemy can retaliate. I'll restate my comment above - it's not about how; it's about where.
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