novembermike wrote: I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.
Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.
I don't think it makes sense for Sisters to get Bolter Discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff - Sisters are normal humans with power armor. Space Marines are genetically augmented super soldiers with biomechanical enhancements tailored to improve their tactical efficiency. It makes sense all that engineering would result in a soldier who's handier with their basic armament.
2) Rules - Sisters have their own special mechanics, like Acts of Faith. It makes sense to differentiate between the armies to give each a unique flavor.
3) Points - Sisters are 9 points, Tacticals are 13 points. You can field a lot more Sisters than you can Space Marines. Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline technically nerfs Tacticals, while this rule seems to be aimed at improving the situation for Tacticals (and terminators, and bikes, etc.) It makes sense to focus on Space Marines given their current challenges on the tabletop.
4) It's Not About the Gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not Better Bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordinary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lot of enthusiasm for Sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sisters are pretty tough as-is and I'm not sure I see the deficiency that makes it necessary to tinker with their rules too much.
I think it makes sence for sisters to get bolter discipline for the following reasons: 1) Fluff- Sisters train hours a day using the weapon, which can be used by unaugmented humans with no issues. Sisters infact specialize in it's use.
2) Rules- Space Marines already have better stats, it makes sense that units with similar weapons training would have similar rules.
3) Points- Sisters are 9 points, for that they have a lower leadership, lower strength, lower toughness, and lower WS. The difference in points isn't enough to offset that difference in durability from T4 alone in the use of small arms. Giving sisters bolter disicpline technically buffs sisters to tac marine levels with small arms fire, and vehicles.
4)It's not about the gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not better bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters shooting is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordianary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces, like the ones that consider it's use a literal sacred task.
Finally, while it's great that some people have a lack of understanding of sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sister's recent beta heavily nerfed the army, and this rule makes their long range objective holding and vehicles more on par with the rest of the game, particularly imperial units.
While I matched your format, and much of your writing style, all of my points are legitimate reasons why this could be applied to sisters, sisters (silence) and custodies. Granted #3 is a bit of a stretch.
What a clever retort. Thank you for pointing out how you matched my format and writing style, I knew something awesome was happening on but couldn't put my finger on it. Your ability to repeat what others say - but with a twist! - is just incredible.
But I disagree with the idea there are legitimate reasons for applying Bolter Discipline to Sisters. You have presented no arguments to that effect and the responses I've seen from you in this thread are a mix of inaccuracies and talking over other people. Rearranging some words and inserting some pith doesn't say anything unless you also have an intelligent point to make.
Your arguments in all these incredibly clever posts seems to be founded on the idea that spending a lot of time training is somehow on par with genetic engineering, cybernetic augmentation, internal targeting systems, psycho-indoctrination, and all the other stuff that goes into making a Marine.
In response:
1) You have a very unrealistic view of the role of training. Train all they want, a Sister is never going to be at the level of a standard Marine. Training allows one to achieve their physical / mental peak, not to go beyond. In fact, there's plenty of research to show that constant training in any discipline is counterproductive, to sustain any level of tactical effectiveness Sisters would need to engage in a other activities. For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills. So your claim that Sisters spend an exceptional amount of time training on this specific weapon probably means something other than what you think it means, it certainly does not imply they should possess a mastery at the level of someone who was engineered and enhanced to fire it, who is also at his peak.
2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
3) The statline differences mean very little when you are talking about a rule that makes a free weapon more effective. Trying to buff Sisters to Tactical Marine levels is stupid, they are supposed to be different. Are you actually being serious when you say that?
4) I'm not sure what this 'sacred' gibberish has to do with improved mastery of a weapon. What is that proof of, besides the fact you want other people to accept your point uncritically? Is it supposed to be the Emperor squeezing off an extra round for all his wives every time he sends them into battle? If so, why would he favor them over his other subjects, like Guard, who can also have Bolters and whom he certainly loves just as much? Explain your point, don't just use magic space God words and expect everyone to just say OK.
This is the post of the thread. Legendary.
I like how someone can walk in here and say "if you disagree with me that is casual sexism."
"Sisters of battle can have bolter beta rules if they cost 13 points." "SEXISM!"
I like how someone can walk in here and say "if you disagree with me that is casual sexism."
Nobody said that.
What was said is discussion about the differences between men and women doesn't really have a place in a discussion that is actually about the differences between humans and post-humans in completely separate military organizations. Which is true.
Nor did the quote I'm thinking about have any qualifier about agreement or disagreement.
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what a space marine actually is. Lot of people want to treat them like "basic troopers" but a space marine is not a basic trooper. Ever marine is like 600 lb plus and loaded with bio enhancements wearing a nuclear powered battle suit that is integrated into their nervous system. In this game they are like a veteran guardsmen wearing ancient full metal plate.
Bolter drill is purely for balancing purposes... anyone thinking that marines getting bolter drill and sisters not means that GW is being sexist or unfair is unbelievably stupid.
Right now, tac marines are really worth 11 points (arguably even 10) but cost 13 points. Bolter drill is a way of approaching that parity in a way that ensures that a large majority of the units in the SM codices don't need to be repointed or restatted.
And just to be clear... marines are better than sisters with bolters straight up. Their reaction times are roughly 10 times faster due to enhanced biology, recoil is less of an issue for them due to their enhanced strength, and even the most green marine has more combat experience then your average sister due to the fact that marines are technically immortal and basically live to eat, breathe, and fight in a way that sisters cannot even hope to approach. Space marines are literally superhuman demigods of war. Sisters are roughly equal to stormtrooper quality troops, but as good as they are they cannot hope to approach the combat skill of the Space Marines simply due to their biology.
It's a decent enough change at the most "shallow" level, so to speak. I think enough people have touched on the shortcomings of the profile and the system itself. Stuff like this seems like a logical choice for trying to tinker with them. But the problems go beyond the bolter. Assault marines and such still aren't touched by this at all or improved in any way. The chainsword seems, at least for many to most chapters and legions, like as much a part of them as their bolters.
Xenomancers wrote: There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what a space marine actually is. Lot of people want to treat them like "basic troopers" but a space marine is not a basic trooper. Ever marine is like 600 lb plus and loaded with bio enhancements wearing a nuclear powered battle suit that is integrated into their nervous system. In this game they are like a veteran guardsmen wearing ancient full metal plate.
And yet, and yet... by continuously cheering and applauding the addition of yet more super-duper-duper soldiers and mega-ultra-badasses who must as a rite of passage in 40k kick down a door and Worf the mother-loving heck out of a space marine, tear off his head and spit in his helmet, the 40k playerbase has created a situation where the marine is just a basic trooper.
Biological fantasmagorical mega-enhancements aside, space marines are now, in the scale of a game with Custodes and Knights and Centurions and Dreadknights and Wraithknights and Wulfen and each layer upon layer upon layer of ever escalating super troops...
just regular middle of the road schmoes.
Kinda sad, isn't it. But it's like Syndrome said: "If everyone's super, no-one will be."
It is amazing how many pages we have gone since a useful post that actually talks about how the Beta Rule we have been presented works in game. Thank you techsoldaten for actually moving this forward.
As for all you arguing if this should apply to Sister, Custodes or anyone else, please go back to the beginning and remember the point of this Beta Rule. People have been discussing how Bolter Marines are just not worth the 13 points they cost. Their combined offense and defense just doesn't stack up to other forces basic infantry units. People have been arguing should Marines get cheaper or more effective.
It seems GW has decided on more effective and has proposed a slight increase to their offense. Test it and let them know if it is not enough, good, or too much. Then they can iterate again and hopefully eventually give us reasonable good Astartes.
Xenomancers wrote: There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what a space marine actually is. Lot of people want to treat them like "basic troopers" but a space marine is not a basic trooper. Ever marine is like 600 lb plus and loaded with bio enhancements wearing a nuclear powered battle suit that is integrated into their nervous system. In this game they are like a veteran guardsmen wearing ancient full metal plate.
Then theres a lot of misunderstanding of how powerful weapons intended to kill alien monsters and tanks are, and how effective said weapons would be against said marine.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
Assault Terminators seem to be one of the few standard-marine anti-Knight units if you can deliver them. That in itself makes them more interesting these days.
All you need is one captn slamguinius to take down a knight. He is a lot better than assault termis when it comes to take out a knight.
Costs less and can actaully do his job compared to assault termies.
Are we ignoring the CP and relic he's using to do that again? Or that flying charges aren't a thing?
Niiai wrote: I see thus thread has gone off topic.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
Niiai wrote: I see thus thread has gone off topic.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
I've played a test game with it, marginal increase of efficiency for CSMs. As you point out, it's situational, but it resulted in about 30 more wounds against light infantry. This would not have done nearly as much against MEQ or TEQ.
Where I saw the biggest 'boost' was with combi-bolters on laspreds. With 4 shots, they were good for dealing an extra wound or two, which lead to a couple morale checks.
So I would not be so quick to discount the buff to bikes and terminators. Combi-bolter Chosen just became a lot more attractive.
Assault Terminators seem to be one of the few standard-marine anti-Knight units if you can deliver them. That in itself makes them more interesting these days.
All you need is one captn slamguinius to take down a knight. He is a lot better than assault termis when it comes to take out a knight.
Costs less and can actaully do his job compared to assault termies.
Are we ignoring the CP and relic he's using to do that again? Or that flying charges aren't a thing?
And the 200 points that can't reliably make the charge is a better option?
Niiai wrote: I see thus thread has gone off topic.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
Not convinced Deathwatch benefit much. You usually drop your vets in rapid fire anyway, and units like Intercessors tend to come in mixed squads that won't benefit from the rule. Terminators and bikes added into the squads won't benefit because of the missing keywords. Standalone bikes would need to give up on obsec and falling back to shoot from the vet combat squad set up. I'm also not convinced many will rush out to try standalone Terminators when vets can do the same job better.
It'll make unpopular units like those two slightly less inefficient to take in semi-competitive matches (where 85% of the game lives) but it's not a huge boon for them.
Niiai wrote: I see thus thread has gone off topic.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
I've played a test game with it, marginal increase of efficiency for CSMs. As you point out, it's situational, but it resulted in about 30 more wounds against light infantry. This would not have done nearly as much against MEQ or TEQ.
Where I saw the biggest 'boost' was with combi-bolters on laspreds. With 4 shots, they were good for dealing an extra wound or two, which lead to a couple morale checks.
So I would not be so quick to discount the buff to bikes and terminators. Combi-bolter Chosen just became a lot more attractive
It takes a CSM 3.375 Shots to Kill a Guardsman while 9 Shots to kill a MEQ.
30 * 3.375 / 9 = 11.25 dead MEQ
So two 5-Model Tactical Squads. Not Meta-Shattering, but not trivial either.
Niiai wrote: I see thus thread has gone off topic.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
I've played a test game with it, marginal increase of efficiency for CSMs. As you point out, it's situational, but it resulted in about 30 more wounds against light infantry. This would not have done nearly as much against MEQ or TEQ.
Where I saw the biggest 'boost' was with combi-bolters on laspreds. With 4 shots, they were good for dealing an extra wound or two, which lead to a couple morale checks.
So I would not be so quick to discount the buff to bikes and terminators. Combi-bolter Chosen just became a lot more attractive
It takes a CSM 3.375 Shots to Kill a Guardsman while 9 Shots to kill a MEQ.
30 * 3.375 / 9 = 11.25 dead MEQ
So two 5-Model Tactical Squads. Not Meta-Shattering, but not trivial either.
Almost.
It was more like 18 additional wounds due to the beta rule and another 10 lost to morale (where casualties included regular shooting.)
Two other important factors:
1) I was playing Black Legion and had rerolls to hit from Abaddon.
2) My army never moved. I gunned down his Knight and an Armiger first turn, he had to come to me.
Niiai wrote: I see thus thread has gone off topic.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
Dark Angels get quite a lot out of this. They have always been the SM king of castling and firing, this makes the basic troops like intercessors useful parts of those castles.
And the 200 points that can't reliably make the charge is a better option?
If terminators get caught out they're more likely to survive if given equal attention. Tartaros SW termies are 6" and have easy access to reroll charges.
It all depends on how you want to view the real cost of smash cap.
- 114 for Smash
- 180 for the CP to power him
- Two out of three detachments to make him work
- No screen in his way
I don't see him playing a large role in the upcoming meta.
Smash captain was excellent when you played with unlimited CPs, now you have to make them count. Even if you value a CP at only 20 points, the smash captain is bordering Gallant levels of cost.
Ghorgul wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.
I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?
This was in my mind, what made 5th eddition so great (along with not using progressive scoring). It made troops so important because if you didn't have some left by the end, you weren't going to win, regardless of how much you had invested into killing your opponent).
Of course such a rule might not work any more in an edition where hordes of troops are already very effective, and progressive scoring is so popular.
Of course then it simply says "screw you" for armies that have worse troops than others...
Not using your aspiring sorcerors as casters when the Change discipline exists is ridiculous.
But saying that Gaze of Fate or a CP are always available is just as ridiculous. We all know the odds are low, nevertheless gak happens very often when you play this army, and losing half a squad of Rubrics or Ahriman / Daemon Prince because of a Peril is something that happens every other game.
Anyway, this rule is a step in the right direction even though I also hope that the final version will allow Rubrics and Plague Marines to move and shoot as if stationnary. I dream of playing an army of Rubric Marines moving forward slowly while shooting. Right now it's just a dream.
Yes bad luck happens. Tough. Orks are gambling on 78% charges working off. That fails and the unit basically gets deleted without doing anything. 22% chance to fail is bit bigger than perilling and 220 or so boyz dying without killing anything isn't anything to sniff at.
My orks have felt it ever since(like year ago) to spread fire so that not only unit gets half the unit dead but nearby unit also gets wiped out. With codex it's even easier due to less boyz. And the least you say about grots...With 6 grot units being practically mandatory for CP that's easily, even with runtherd/warboss around, 6d3 extra casualties. 2 units worth it. Without even requiring significant firepower.
Niiai wrote: I see thus thread has gone off topic.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
My opinion is that Termies and Bikers will get the best use out of this along with vehicles.
Termies threat bubble increases somewhat and bikers become better kiters.
Troops in general won't benefit as much unless they remain stationary. For that the standard trooper has too short of a range and generally you need to move up the battlefield to claim objectives.
Niiai wrote: I see thus thread has gone off topic.
Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.
I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.
Intercessors seem to be in a stronger place now, especially Raven Guard, since there is no downside to just parking them somewhere anymore.
Just found out that Chosen can take combi weapons. And that combi plasma is the same points as a plasmagun, for some reason. And that you can have 6 combi plasmas in a unit of 6. And a chaos lord can also take a combi plasma and give them reroll 1's.
How about a unit of 6 chosen with combi plasmas + lord? That would be 28 bolter shots + 7 plasma shots with reroll 1's. Enter 12" and you get the 14 overloaded plasma treatment. The combination costs about 230 pts and fits in a rhino.
Xenomancers wrote: There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what a space marine actually is. Lot of people want to treat them like "basic troopers"
They cost the same because of the drawback of firing both profiles, getting -1 to hit (unlike a combi-flamer where you're getting bolter shots for "free"). So the balance becomes, do you think it's worth missing your plasma shots to get some extra bolters in (at the same target, so probably sub-optimal firing conditions)? This isn't even taking into consideration that you're now overheating on 1&2's if you're overcharging. Although you can somewhat mitigate that with prescience
PiñaColada wrote: They cost the same because of the drawback of firing both profiles, getting -1 to hit (unlike a combi-flamer where you're getting bolter shots for "free"). So the balance becomes, do you think it's worth missing your plasma shots to get some extra bolters in (at the same target, so probably sub-optimal firing conditions)? This isn't even taking into consideration that you're now overheating on 1&2's if you're overcharging. Although you can somewhat mitigate that with prescience
Still combi melta is not the same as meltagun in points.
Regardless, I don't think it makes sense not to give them the combi plasmas instead of normal plasmaguns and have a unit that's good both against hordes and elites. I think I dig it.
Still combi melta is not the same as meltagun in points.
Regardless, I don't think it makes sense not to give them the combi plasmas instead of normal plasmaguns and have a unit that's good both against hordes and elites. I think I dig it.
Hmm, didn't realise that combi-melta wasn't the same point structure. Well GW hasn't priced the melta correctly in 8th overall so perhaps that does make sense. But yeah, choosing a combi-plasma is obviously better since it gives you flexibility for 0 points. Also if you're charged then overwatch is just better since those modifiers don't apply.
Combi plasma drops in point in CA. Probably because it's the only combi-weapons that has an intrinsic malus attached to the -1 (outside missing the shot)
Sure, but it's still a no-brainer auto-take option since it does give you flexibility and better overwatch for 0 points and 0 drawbacks. Not like you have to shoot both profiles.
It's not a big deal, but all combi-weapons should probably cost the same as the special weapon + 1 point.
Tried it out with my vets. Was basically useless for normal marines on the account you want them always to mkve to cap objectives. The rhino got some use out if it though.
Spoletta wrote: Smash captain was excellent when you played with unlimited CPs, now you have to make them count. Even if you value a CP at only 20 points, the smash captain is bordering Gallant levels of cost.
The advantage of Captain Smash is that you don't have to spend those CPs on him unless you need to. Against an opponent who lacks big targets, play him conservatively, buff your shooting and then send him into melee if the opportunity presents itself.
But When I have something nasty like a Bloodthirster barrelling towards my lines or I need to take a chunk out of a Castellan, I don't mind burning the CPs to let Captain Smash go crazy. He is there to deal with those nasty problem units that are tough to take down any other way.
lolman1c wrote: Tried it out with my vets. Was basically useless for normal marines on the account you want them always to mkve to cap objectives. The rhino got some use out if it though.
Yeah, so one rarely really stays put to be able to use the beta rule? On top of this, doubling nearly zero damage is still going to be nearly zero damage. Because the beta rule acts as pure multiplier, good units got a lot better against specific targets while worse units are still kind of bad. And part of space marine problem is still the fact that they pay 13 points per wound while their actual durability is not worth the 13 points, i.e. flamer (and by extension almost everything else!) still kills more MEQs than GEQs in points which is just fething ridiculous.
Example:
10 * 2 = 20, absolute increase of 10.
2 * 2 = 4, absolute increase of 2.
Yeah, both increase 100%, but what does it matter, the space marines just became marginally better against T3/T4 poor save targets, while nearly everything else still laughs them off in both shooting and melee. Even Troop Marines Objective secured is of questionable worth because they pay 13 points per model, it does not guarantee control in any manner.
They should maybe extend the rule that bolter weapons AP is changed further -1 (so basic bolters get AP -1) when at half the range, or alternatively that rapid firing them always changes AP additional -1. I however find these sort of blanket buffs problematic exactly because of the multiplier effects described above. And bottom line is basic MEQs are still too squishy unit for their 13 points per wound.
techsoldaten wrote: 2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…
techsoldaten wrote: 2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…
TBH I think just the fact that Custodes don't get this should be a clear indicator to anyone who likes sisters that this is intended to be a Marines rule, and it buffs marines exactly where they need to be buffed: their basic functionality.
A SOB has pretty solid basic functionality. They cost about what a bolter wielding troop should cost. It's their "fancy schtick stuff" from the new beta codex that feels incredibly lacking, IMO.
Also, Retributors carry heavy bolters, right? Those guns that don't benefit from this rule anyway?
Raven guard and Deathwatch intercessors = pure JOY.
Now i can realy say that primaris marines are better than vanilla ones.
Just dug their heels into cover and dakkadakkadakka your foes from miles away, enjoying your shiny 2W 2+ save and -1 to hit/addicional ap on bolt rifles
Tough choice, but for me Deathwatch is a clear winner here, auto double tap S4 AP-2 bolters with 36" range/ S4 AP-3 with 24" range just feels tooooooooooooo great, not to mention all rerolls to hit/to wound and additional +1 to wound.
Actually, somebody need to check Gilletteman's gunline once again with this new upgrade.
Having thought through this stuff a bit, I'll change my tune and say that Bikes, for both Chaos and Loyalists, seem perfectly fine as anti-chaff harassers now. It's 71 points for three Bikes and a Storm Bolter on the Sergeant, for that you get 16 shots at 24", a 14" move (so a 38" threat range), T5 and W2. I just wish Command Squad bikers would come down a bit in price so that a 5-man squad with Storm Bolters and Shields didn't cost close to 200 points...
the_scotsman wrote: A SOB has pretty solid basic functionality. They cost about what a bolter wielding troop should cost.
It's what you compare them to really. They are T3 tactical marines with an extra body per squad, more shooting in close, and a little less shooting at range with the new rules. If tacs could take stormbolters...
But compare either to a genuinely solid unit like ss/sb deathwatch after the new buff. As other have been said the way the rule has been applied is the problem as the stronger units have benefited the most leaving the rest behind. If it had been an upgrade to tactical marines / (and potentially chaos marine troops) alone then all would have been good.
the_scotsman wrote: A SOB has pretty solid basic functionality. They cost about what a bolter wielding troop should cost.
It's what you compare them to really. They are T3 tactical marines with an extra body per squad, more shooting in close, and a little less shooting at range with the new rules. If tacs could take stormbolters...
But compare either to a genuinely solid unit like ss/sb deathwatch after the new buff. As other have been said the way the rule has been applied is the problem as the stronger units have benefited the most leaving the rest behind. If it had been an upgrade to tactical marines / (and potentially chaos marine troops) alone then all would have been good.
yeah, and yet none of those people have explained HOW the best units "benefit more than most"
How does a SB/SS deathwatch vet, a unit that deep strikes into rapid fire range and shoots at 12", benefit more than a currently underpowered unit like a marine biker or terminator, who gets to actually use the rule when they come in? Surely even if they're still a better unit in general, they benefit way less from the rule, because I have yet to play a competitive game of 40k that wasn't totally decided by turn 3, the only turn when those deathwatch vets would even have the option of using the rule at all.
So sisters of battle need to move close and get within 12". So what? Almost all their special weaponry has 12" or shorter range anyway, or (like the aforementioned retributors) is not a weapon that would benefit from this rule at all. Why do I want to try and play sisters of battle as a static gunline when they're clearly intended to be moving forward to use their signature special weapons at close range?
Heck, even basic tactical marines benefit more from this rule than deathwatch vets and other close-range power armor units, because you have the option to build them as a static unit with a heavy weapon if you want to. Sure, theyre going to compare unfavorably to Sternguard and Intercessors, but at least it brings something to the table - unlike with Deathwatch vets, for whom this setup is pointless because they already have Stalker boltguns as an option.
lolman1c wrote: Tried it out with my vets. Was basically useless for normal marines on the account you want them always to mkve to cap objectives. The rhino got some use out if it though.
'Tis why I would prefer rapid fire being replaced by assault 2...
-Rapid Fire became "Assault, minus the run & shoot bit"; so RF1 meant 1 shot regardless
-Marines could fire Rapid Fire weapons twice when they didn't move or were within half range
-The game were rebalanced around that
It might sound cheaky, but I'm playing with that idea in my head (it'll never happen, so it's just a pipedream), and it "feels" like a better game.
-Rapid Fire became "Assault, minus the run & shoot bit"; so RF1 meant 1 shot regardless
-Marines could fire Rapid Fire weapons twice when they didn't move or were within half range
-The game were rebalanced around that
It might sound cheaky, but I'm playing with that idea in my head (it'll never happen, so it's just a pipedream), and it "feels" like a better game.
I certainly think there is something here, but making RF become Assault would actually make the worse IMO. How about Heavy & Assault "bolt' weapons having the option to be RF instead?
And RF weapons get the current Beta rule on top of that?
And the 200 points that can't reliably make the charge is a better option?
If terminators get caught out they're more likely to survive if given equal attention. Tartaros SW termies are 6" and have easy access to reroll charges.
It all depends on how you want to view the real cost of smash cap.
- 114 for Smash
- 180 for the CP to power him
- Two out of three detachments to make him work
- No screen in his way
I don't see him playing a large role in the upcoming meta.
Those Terminators also don't have the TH/SS loadout that was being talked about.
the_scotsman wrote: yeah, and yet none of those people have explained HOW the best units "benefit more than most"
Good units become better. Bad units become... less bad?
the_scotsman wrote: So sisters of battle need to move close and get within 12". So what?
I think the general concern from that side is that sisters are rather underwhelming with the short to medium range firepower these days despite it being the niche their army is forced into, so anything that moves other factions ahead while they stand still is unfavourable to them.
Particularly due to the various aura and faith effects in the beta codex that push them to more of an immobile gunline approach - though I feel that is a deeper issue with the faction as a whole and personally feel the marines should keep this particular buff to themselves. Sisters should be encouraged to get close, they just aren't all that good at it.
Why is it that every time a faction gets a rule there's a ton of people crying that their faction didn't get a clone rule? Like this beta rule that's been out like a week and there's already crying from sisters players for the same rule. Not every faction is supposed to have the same rules and actually, the more you argue for it the more you remove any tangible difference between each army in the game. If sisters end up needing a buff they should look for unique faction specific ways to buff them. Also, the beta rules for sister are still really new and their codex isn't even finalized so doom posting like they are in the same spot as SM is disingenuous at best
Asmodios wrote: Why is it that every time a faction gets a rule there's a ton of people crying that their faction didn't get a clone rule? Like this beta rule that's been out like a week and there's already crying from sisters players for the same rule. Not every faction is supposed to have the same rules and actually, the more you argue for it the more you remove any tangible difference between each army in the game. If sisters end up needing a buff they should look for unique faction specific ways to buff them. Also, the beta rules for sister are still really new and their codex isn't even finalized so doom posting like they are in the same spot as SM is disingenuous at best
The game is converging in the name of streamline ! Can’t you feel samey samey? How many different names did they give deepstrike? Has to be at least 10’by now right? What did that do?
Asmodios wrote: Why is it that every time a faction gets a rule there's a ton of people crying that their faction didn't get a clone rule? Like this beta rule that's been out like a week and there's already crying from sisters players for the same rule. Not every faction is supposed to have the same rules and actually, the more you argue for it the more you remove any tangible difference between each army in the game. If sisters end up needing a buff they should look for unique faction specific ways to buff them. Also, the beta rules for sister are still really new and their codex isn't even finalized so doom posting like they are in the same spot as SM is disingenuous at best
The game is converging in the name of streamline ! Can’t you feel samey samey? How many different names did they give deepstrike? Has to be at least 10’by now right? What did that do?
Deepstrike is not a great example as in fluff most armies have something that acts as some type of mid-battle insertion tool and I actually like that they take the time to name each of these appropriately for each faction even if they work the same way rules-wise. What I can't stand is players arguing that unit x needs to do everything unit y does and at the same efficiency. Other then custodes there really shouldn't be another faction in the game that can wield a bolter like a sm. Now im not saying a unit like sisters shouldn't get a buff (if they need it) just that there should be unique ways to make them better that are army specific. I don't want to end up playing a game where everything is essentially the same and the army you pick is equivalent to picking out different pieces for your chess collection.
techsoldaten wrote: 2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…
If that's the case than I'd say there's an argument for Black Templars getting acts of faith
Dark eldar don't have battle focus when CWE does, even though they are both Eldar they have different rules
techsoldaten wrote: 2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…
If that's the case than I'd say there's an argument for Black Templars getting acts of faith
Dark eldar don't have battle focus when CWE does, even though they are both Eldar they have different rules
Exactly. Bolter Discipline has NOTHING to due with the bolter itself, but an Astartes expertise in using bolters. If we want to add the rule to ALL bolters, then we need to give Battle Focus to Dark Eldar and Acts of Faith to BTs.
While we are all sure that Sisters are good at using Bolters, a Marine will always just that much better at using them due to their augmentations and training. Not all Sisters use Bolters, but EVERY Marine is trained extensively to do so. There just aren't enough Sisters, Guard or even Custodes that have the same level of training to make a difference in-game, even if a few might be able to match an Astartes
techsoldaten wrote: 2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…
If that's the case than I'd say there's an argument for Black Templars getting acts of faith
Dark eldar don't have battle focus when CWE does, even though they are both Eldar they have different rules
And Grey Knights should get Daemonic Ritual. Grey Knights know enough about Daemons, they should be able to summon. Plus they train all the time and their bolters are sacred.
And Ork Gargants should get Rotate Ion Shields. It's not fair that Imperials get all the advantages, their Meks are some of the most inventive engineers in the Universe.
And Guard should get their own version of the beta rule called Lasgun Discipline, since many of them train a whole from birth on how to shoot. Makes sense they would be better than the general Imperium.
And Tyranids should get Killshot on Biovores. They all come from the same spawning pit and share a psychic connection, it only makes sense they would be at the level of a Predator.
These beta rules would be a good start towards fixing the problems that infest 40k!
Of course, there's still the big one, the lack of representation for marginalized communities and casual sexism amongst the player base that cause players to take issue with beta rules for Sisters too. And racism and stuff.
Could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.
Asmodios wrote: Why is it that every time a faction gets a rule there's a ton of people crying that their faction didn't get a clone rule? Like this beta rule that's been out like a week and there's already crying from sisters players for the same rule. Not every faction is supposed to have the same rules and actually, the more you argue for it the more you remove any tangible difference between each army in the game. If sisters end up needing a buff they should look for unique faction specific ways to buff them. Also, the beta rules for sister are still really new and their codex isn't even finalized so doom posting like they are in the same spot as SM is disingenuous at best
The game is converging in the name of streamline ! Can’t you feel samey samey? How many different names did they give deepstrike? Has to be at least 10’by now right? What did that do?
Deepstrike is not a great example as in fluff most armies have something that acts as some type of mid-battle insertion tool and I actually like that they take the time to name each of these appropriately for each faction even if they work the same way rules-wise. What I can't stand is players arguing that unit x needs to do everything unit y does and at the same efficiency. Other then custodes there really shouldn't be another faction in the game that can wield a bolter like a sm. Now im not saying a unit like sisters shouldn't get a buff (if they need it) just that there should be unique ways to make them better that are army specific. I don't want to end up playing a game where everything is essentially the same and the army you pick is equivalent to picking out different pieces for your chess collection.
While I agree with you, we are in the age of convergence, “streamlining” , and micro transactions.
the_scotsman wrote: yeah, and yet none of those people have explained HOW the best units "benefit more than most"
Good units become better. Bad units become... less bad?
the_scotsman wrote: So sisters of battle need to move close and get within 12". So what?
I think the general concern from that side is that sisters are rather underwhelming with the short to medium range firepower these days despite it being the niche their army is forced into, so anything that moves other factions ahead while they stand still is unfavourable to them.
Particularly due to the various aura and faith effects in the beta codex that push them to more of an immobile gunline approach - though I feel that is a deeper issue with the faction as a whole and personally feel the marines should keep this particular buff to themselves. Sisters should be encouraged to get close, they just aren't all that good at it.
Yes, but that's not actually how you quantify "benefit most". The amount of benefit that any meta unit out of the Deathwatch gets is essentially negligible, wheras the benefit to many non-deahtwatch marine units is far more.
Regardless of whether at the end of the day, the marine unit is better than the deathwatch unit, it doesn't change that the marine unit benefitted more from the rule.
Of all the marine factions, in terms of how much they gain from the rule, you've probably got:
-Blood Angels least: Does not benefit what blood angels do. In a purely competitive sense, the "codex space marines" clones in the BA dex are strictly inferior to taking another chapter as soup, even if you did want to use them over guard/admech/sisters allies for your support role. Essentially gain nothing from the rule.
-Space Wolves second-least: The only thing that might give a toss in the space wolves' usable roster would be something like WG termies, who have access to the coveted power weapon+combi-weapon build that Chaos Termies get, but at Loyalist Termie base price. But their bikers are Hurpity-Durp-tastic so they have no bikes to benefit.
-Deathwatch third-least: Their meta bike unit, the obsec 3 bike 2 vanvet combat squad, does not have the BIKE keyword and doesn't benefit. neither do their meta TDA builds have the TERMINATOR keyword. Their SB/SS vets only benefit from the rule turn 3 onward, and are generally considered to fill the role of Intercessors better than the intercessors do.
-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.
-Space Marines second-most: Particularly the two best CT's Raven Guard and Ultras seem to benefit from this rule a lot, since they want to be clumped around reroll bubbles that don't move too fast, and in the case of raven guard they benefit HEAVILY from fighting at 24" rather than 12". They also have Scout Bikers and Sternguard which are the units that possibly like this rule change the most that are used in competitive meta builds.
-Dark Angels most: Synergizes excellently with their CT, and they also love being clumped around a not very mobile buff bubble, and they also have the Dark Talon, arguably the best vehicle to make use of the rule with.
-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.
I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.
I hope that's the case, obviously it's kind of silly that they don't benefit from this rule. However, they've never made any updates to address the fact that the lack of these keywords prevents both Heretic and Adeptus Astartes psychic powers from working on them either.
-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.
I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.
I am not a grey knight player, but to me, the additional 50% chance of going second and the unit getting shot compared to MAYBE getting to fire one of my units from the edge of no-man's land at an opponent's unit they set up exactly on no-man's land would not be worth the risk vs the very small cost of deep striking the unit.
Also:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or
the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes.
I am not a grey knight player, but to me, the additional 50% chance of going second and the unit getting shot compared to MAYBE getting to fire one of my units from the edge of no-man's land at an opponent's unit they set up exactly on no-man's land would not be worth the risk vs the very small cost of deep striking the unit.
Also:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or
the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes.
CP for a 2+ save - otherwise your opponent cedes board control.
That FAQ comes close and I can see them FAQing this that way, but I feel like it has a possibility to get through. Either way the models did not move in the previous movement phase despite having counted as moving.
I'm not prepared to defend it so I'll let people break their backs on it in YMDC.
the_scotsman wrote: Yes, but that's not actually how you quantify "benefit most".
I tend to be less absolute and more end result on these kinds of things.
If unit A gets a boost, and unit B gets twice that boost - unit B 'benefits most', however if B is still crap after the boost while A is ever more fantastic then in practical terms it's A that has come off the best.
From a competitive standpoint at least it doesn't matter if you are half way crap or all the way crap but it does matter if you are half way good or all the way good.
Those Terminators also don't have the TH/SS loadout that was being talked about.
I'm not sure why we'd talk about terminators that don't benefit from this rule.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie. You then said they could easily get into combat and that Tarts have a 6" movement like it mattered.
One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.
Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.
the_scotsman wrote: Yes, but that's not actually how you quantify "benefit most".
I tend to be less absolute and more end result on these kinds of things.
If unit A gets a boost, and unit B gets twice that boost - unit B 'benefits most', however if B is still crap after the boost while A is ever more fantastic then in practical terms it's A that has come off the best.
From a competitive standpoint at least it doesn't matter if you are half way crap or all the way crap but it does matter if you are half way good or all the way good.
So basically, marine players are never going to be happy. We have EIGHT fething marine factions in the game, and 2 "quasi-marine" factions. And within each marine factions, there are usually multiple power armor bolter toter type units.
One is always going to work slightly better than the others, and will evolve into the competitive meta. If you dismiss every buff that doesn't completely flip the meta around as crap, then why bother trying to change it around at all?
SS/SB vet teams are definitely still best-in-show bolter boys after this rules change, despite getting a ridiculously tiny bump from the rule itself.
LR Crusaders, Tactical Termies, Tacticals, Bikers, DA flyers, etc all received decent benefits from the rule, but probably won't make it to the competitive meta because of it.
Sternguard, Company Vets on bikes, and Scout bikes are the three units I'd keep an eye on as MAYBE this toes them over the line and we see someone taking company vet bikers+guilliman over deathwatch vets+watch captains as their supplemental anti horde firepower in an imperial soup list.
It's frankly amazing to me that there's this wild double standard where being tournament worthy is both an ideal and an abomination. If anything is not taken in tournament meta lists, it's garbage and the second it is it's an abomination that needs to be nerfed.
Well my qualifier was in the main book (non FW), but we may as well take a look. Are we talking Stormcannons though? Because of the top I'm looking at 20 x .83 x .333 x.333 x 2 = 3.6 wounds on the famed Castellan. With buffs that'll go up a bit, but it ain't much. Not to mention the effect of return fire. A single Devastator Squad with a Cherub'd Hellfire round does about the same.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.
Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.
A Full TH/SS Terminator Squad lands 21 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.83 x3 = 13 wounds on the Castellan in CC. Compared to other options, that's damn impressive imo. This is prior to burning 3CP to fight again, too. So from where I stand, if you can figure out a way to get them there, they can do the work better than most. They cost a lot, sure, but they still cost less than the Castellan by a fair bit, and these numbers are un-buffed. Also they have that 3++ and distributed wounds helping them a bit defensively.
A Predator Autocannon averages less than a single wound on the 3++ Castellan.
There's something to be said for Imperial Fist dakka-mode Centurions under Siegebreaker, they average 9 MWs and another 9 saves. Not remotely enough to one-round it but they'll take a sizable chunk out of one. ...actually, fill the rest of the list with Sniper scouts and they'd average another 13 Mortals per round. 22 MWs is close enough that missing a handful of the regular saves that go with those MWs would do the job if you went first.
Of course, the remaining three Knights would utterly demolish such a force on their turn.
Marmatag wrote: One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
Well my qualifier was in the main book (non FW), but we may as well take a look. Are we talking Stormcannons though? Because of the top I'm looking at 20 x .83 x .333 x.333 x 2 = 3.6 wounds on the famed Castellan. With buffs that'll go up a bit, but it ain't much. Not to mention the effect of return fire. A single Devastator Squad with a Cherub'd Hellfire round does about the same.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.
Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.
A Full TH/SS Terminator Squad lands 21 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.83 x3 = 13 wounds on the Castellan in CC. Compared to other options, that's damn impressive imo. This is prior to burning 3CP to fight again, too. So from where I stand, if you can figure out a way to get them there, they can do the work better than most. They cost a lot, sure, but they still cost less than the Castellan by a fair bit, and these numbers are un-buffed. Also they have that 3++ and distributed wounds helping them a bit defensively.
The fighting again Strategem happens at the end of the phase, so that'll be after the Knight lands some stomps. Distributed wounds also only helps if the knight is consistently rolling 1 for the DD3 for the stomps.
That's not even keeping in mind Overwatch (though likely it didn't kill many dudes), and whatever bonuses the Knight might already have in place.
Marmatag wrote: One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
Some points we had relic Combi-Weapons, but that's about it.
The Newman wrote: There's something to be said for Imperial Fist dakka-mode Centurions under Siegebreaker, they average 9 MWs and another 9 saves. Not remotely enough to one-round it but they'll take a sizable chunk out of one. ...actually, fill the rest of the list with Sniper scouts and they'd average another 13 Mortals per round. 22 MWs is close enough that missing a handful of the regular saves that go with those MWs would do the job if you went first.
Of course, the remaining three Knights would utterly demolish such a force on their turn.
Yeah, the MW route is tempting but it makes for weird lists that I feel wind pu with heavy disadvantages in other areas.
Like I can build a list that can one-shot the Castellan with raw number-of-guns, too. But lord knows how it would fare against other things.
The fighting again Strategem happens at the end of the phase, so that'll be after the Knight lands some stomps. Distributed wounds also only helps if the knight is consistently rolling 1 for the DD3 for the stomps.
Obviously, but you're still looking at well over half damage to the Castellan from a single unit. Distributed wounds helps when taking overwatch or other fire still, esp when compared to any vehicle which is looking at the Volcano Lance. For basic marines, I don't see many other units that can even come close to the potential damage output that the Terminators do. Siege Centurions I suppose can do a lot of damage, but they can't teleport and lack defensive ability.
Like I said, any other suggestions and I'm all ears.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.
Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.
Depending if you're space marines or chaos space marines my approach would be similar but slightly different. Either bomb a bike libby in and try to cast null zone, at which point it can be taken down extremely efficiently by lascannons, or stack +to casts on a sorceror and get it Death Hexed, then again, apply lascannons liberally.
Having actually faced the Carls Wrath Castellan myself in my last game for the first time, I wasn't super impressed. Sure, the thing basically downs whatever the heck it wants but it costs 600 points and sucks CPs faster than smashcap. I had my Tsons+daemons, he had the castellan plus catachan brigade. He used a CP to make it a character and give it a trait, another to give it the relic, then 6 on his turn to use the Raven strat and Oathbreaker Guidance (he went first) and to try and re-roll the damage roll that went through vs Ahriman to try and kill him, which didn't work. Grand total, he did 4hp of damage to Ahriman, 3 points of damage to my LOC which he went after with carl's wrath, and 4 damage to a rhino with the secondary cannons.
Good damage? Yeah, sure, it was fine. He could also have wiped a rhino with Cawls Wrath if he'd wanted to, or a double butcher cannon contemptor dread - going after the LOC with a 3++ was probably a bad move. But for six command points, I could have gotten better mileage out of a smash captain or some other better CP-sucker unit and paid way less than 600 points. Then, on my turn, he had to burn another 3 to get the 3++ when I started declaring anti-tank weapons at it, and it basically cost me nothing to draw that out. His turn, he burned another 3 and left himself with 3 remaining, still didn't manage to kill the LOC, and on my turn I got Death Hex on it and got it to the third bracket
The thing burned 14/15 command points in a matter of 2 turns, didn't manage to kill anywhere near 600 points of units, and with just one psychic power I was able to strip nearly all its defenses away, besides the admittedly annoying T8. And all this was while I was putting most of my attention and resources to killing all the damn guardsmen he had with the knight, I used a good chunk of my CP and psychic powers buffing up my pink horror and tzaangor blob to sort them out.
-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.
I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.
This is an important point and why this will have an impact that is hard to predict from the armchair. Most of the analysis done on this rule fails to challenge assumptions, like those who assume the use of these units won't change in the face of this new rule even though they kind of can.
If I was playing Loyalists, I'd build my list with a bike libby ready to bomb it forward and Null zone, have everything on the table T1 geared towards clearing out the screen around the knight, then bring the knight killing stuff in deep strike turn 2. Might take a couple double lascannon 5-man sternguard squads to make sure I'm drawing out the CPs for Rotate Ion turn 1, and also make sure I'm not putting down any unit turn 1 that's over 200-ish points unless it's toting stormshields.
-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.
I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.
Deep strike counts as moving for the purposes of firing weapons. It always has.
Marmatag wrote: One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
I have to agree, relics for SM in general are pretty underwhelming. A relic cyclone missile launcher would be super interesting.
-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.
I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.
This is an important point and why this will have an impact that is hard to predict from the armchair. Most of the analysis done on this rule fails to challenge assumptions, like those who assume the use of these units won't change in the face of this new rule even though they kind of can.
And this applies to Deathwatch as well.
I think for me the reason I'm not assuming that the usage of most (not all) bolter-wielding models that currently deep strike is the 24" range on the guns and the "you must stand still" requirement. This absolutely changes the use case of Intercessors, who won't need to close to 15 but can fire across no-mans land at 30", but it would be very tricky to arrange an opportunity for a GK or DW storm bolter unit to be able to fire turn 1 with only 24" range.
Marmatag wrote: One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
Marmatag wrote: One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
Best you got is the Raptor Chapter Master
And then Vulkan has a Heavy Flamer at least.
Honestly I'm still annoyed that the Fire Hawks special character doesn't have a hand flamer. That was like one of the primary benefits of picking that Chapter and he didn't even have that.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.
Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.
Depending if you're space marines or chaos space marines my approach would be similar but slightly different. Either bomb a bike libby in and try to cast null zone, at which point it can be taken down extremely efficiently by lascannons, or stack +to casts on a sorceror and get it Death Hexed, then again, apply lascannons liberally.
Having actually faced the Carls Wrath Castellan myself in my last game for the first time, I wasn't super impressed. Sure, the thing basically downs whatever the heck it wants but it costs 600 points and sucks CPs faster than smashcap. I had my Tsons+daemons, he had the castellan plus catachan brigade. He used a CP to make it a character and give it a trait, another to give it the relic, then 6 on his turn to use the Raven strat and Oathbreaker Guidance (he went first) and to try and re-roll the damage roll that went through vs Ahriman to try and kill him, which didn't work. Grand total, he did 4hp of damage to Ahriman, 3 points of damage to my LOC which he went after with carl's wrath, and 4 damage to a rhino with the secondary cannons.
Good damage? Yeah, sure, it was fine. He could also have wiped a rhino with Cawls Wrath if he'd wanted to, or a double butcher cannon contemptor dread - going after the LOC with a 3++ was probably a bad move. But for six command points, I could have gotten better mileage out of a smash captain or some other better CP-sucker unit and paid way less than 600 points. Then, on my turn, he had to burn another 3 to get the 3++ when I started declaring anti-tank weapons at it, and it basically cost me nothing to draw that out. His turn, he burned another 3 and left himself with 3 remaining, still didn't manage to kill the LOC, and on my turn I got Death Hex on it and got it to the third bracket
The thing burned 14/15 command points in a matter of 2 turns, didn't manage to kill anywhere near 600 points of units, and with just one psychic power I was able to strip nearly all its defenses away, besides the admittedly annoying T8. And all this was while I was putting most of my attention and resources to killing all the damn guardsmen he had with the knight, I used a good chunk of my CP and psychic powers buffing up my pink horror and tzaangor blob to sort them out.
Null Zone is already hard to cast as is, and you have to get it into the 6" zone. It isn't a good power for a reason.
Also your opponent going after the 3++ Lord of Change with such weapons was silly.
Formosa wrote: We will just house rule it then until they fix the issue, if ever.
That's certainly a reasonable solution, as I said in another post, it's a bit silly that they don't benefit from this rule, but at the same time, they can't benefit from any Adeptus or Heretic Astartes psychic powers either and GW hasn't made any attempts to rectify that situation.
Its a dice game at the end of the day. There are turns when the Castellan does nothing because you flub the rolls. Even with order of companions.
There are also times when it nukes two units worth 200+ points, then gets to murder another in assault. Then takes 1000~ points worth of firepower only to loses a negligible amount of wounds before repeats the trails of death on the next turn. At that point its GG.
Back on the rule - I think the big winner are Bobby G+mass scout lists. Something like what Reece ran at Nova. Bolter scouts benefit a bit (you probably want to use them offensively, but you have a choice if opponents are going to come to you). Scout bikers benefit a lot. Devestators with just 2 heavy weapons benefit on those bolters. Sternguard benefit too. Obviously you can't get all of this under RG's bubble - but you can get a lot.
Actually thinking about it Guilliman plus lots of bikers might have some legs, as thats a pretty nasty alpha strike with all those rerolls. Rule of 3 prevents things getting too silly.
Marmatag wrote: One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
Best you got is the Raptor Chapter Master
And then Vulkan has a Heavy Flamer at least.
Honestly I'm still annoyed that the Fire Hawks special character doesn't have a hand flamer. That was like one of the primary benefits of picking that Chapter and he didn't even have that.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.
Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.
Depending if you're space marines or chaos space marines my approach would be similar but slightly different. Either bomb a bike libby in and try to cast null zone, at which point it can be taken down extremely efficiently by lascannons, or stack +to casts on a sorceror and get it Death Hexed, then again, apply lascannons liberally.
Having actually faced the Carls Wrath Castellan myself in my last game for the first time, I wasn't super impressed. Sure, the thing basically downs whatever the heck it wants but it costs 600 points and sucks CPs faster than smashcap. I had my Tsons+daemons, he had the castellan plus catachan brigade. He used a CP to make it a character and give it a trait, another to give it the relic, then 6 on his turn to use the Raven strat and Oathbreaker Guidance (he went first) and to try and re-roll the damage roll that went through vs Ahriman to try and kill him, which didn't work. Grand total, he did 4hp of damage to Ahriman, 3 points of damage to my LOC which he went after with carl's wrath, and 4 damage to a rhino with the secondary cannons.
Good damage? Yeah, sure, it was fine. He could also have wiped a rhino with Cawls Wrath if he'd wanted to, or a double butcher cannon contemptor dread - going after the LOC with a 3++ was probably a bad move. But for six command points, I could have gotten better mileage out of a smash captain or some other better CP-sucker unit and paid way less than 600 points. Then, on my turn, he had to burn another 3 to get the 3++ when I started declaring anti-tank weapons at it, and it basically cost me nothing to draw that out. His turn, he burned another 3 and left himself with 3 remaining, still didn't manage to kill the LOC, and on my turn I got Death Hex on it and got it to the third bracket
The thing burned 14/15 command points in a matter of 2 turns, didn't manage to kill anywhere near 600 points of units, and with just one psychic power I was able to strip nearly all its defenses away, besides the admittedly annoying T8. And all this was while I was putting most of my attention and resources to killing all the damn guardsmen he had with the knight, I used a good chunk of my CP and psychic powers buffing up my pink horror and tzaangor blob to sort them out.
Null Zone is already hard to cast as is, and you have to get it into the 6" zone. It isn't a good power for a reason.
Also your opponent going after the 3++ Lord of Change with such weapons was silly.
Good ol' Slayer "I put 1000 points of antitank shooting into my opponent's 3++ save Castellan, oh your opponent putting his Castellan into your 3++ save LOC was dumb that's why you won this confirms my bias" Fan.
-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.
I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.
This is an important point and why this will have an impact that is hard to predict from the armchair. Most of the analysis done on this rule fails to challenge assumptions, like those who assume the use of these units won't change in the face of this new rule even though they kind of can.
And this applies to Deathwatch as well.
I think for me the reason I'm not assuming that the usage of most (not all) bolter-wielding models that currently deep strike is the 24" range on the guns and the "you must stand still" requirement. This absolutely changes the use case of Intercessors, who won't need to close to 15 but can fire across no-mans land at 30", but it would be very tricky to arrange an opportunity for a GK or DW storm bolter unit to be able to fire turn 1 with only 24" range.
That's the thing - SIA makes it 30'' at AP-1 as an option.
So if we agree that Intercessors have new value from being able to pump out good shooting at 30'', and it's deemed decent enough to employ them, then imagine a 3++ unit that fires double that while toting a couple Terminators to boost the basic save to 2+ for 4 wounds. Now you have a pretty durable objective camper that displaces that new use case for Intercessors.
Vaktathi wrote: Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
In actual combat you want your squad leader leading the squad not getting focused on shooting the enemy. You especially don't want them focusing on using a special weapon as they are almost guaranteed to lose situational awareness doing so (plus they are heavy so the new guy carries it). A good part of the reason you see many nations during WWII using squad leaders armed with sub-machine guns was keep the squad leader focused on what was happening and not putting bullets down range since a SMG just doesn't have the range a rifle does. I suspect in the early days of GW the designers knew that hence we have squad leaders mostly armed with short ranged/melee options. I am not so sure they know that now and just have the squad leaders like that because they have always been that way.
Marmatag wrote: One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
Best you got is the Raptor Chapter Master
And then Vulkan has a Heavy Flamer at least.
Honestly I'm still annoyed that the Fire Hawks special character doesn't have a hand flamer. That was like one of the primary benefits of picking that Chapter and he didn't even have that.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.
Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.
Depending if you're space marines or chaos space marines my approach would be similar but slightly different. Either bomb a bike libby in and try to cast null zone, at which point it can be taken down extremely efficiently by lascannons, or stack +to casts on a sorceror and get it Death Hexed, then again, apply lascannons liberally.
Having actually faced the Carls Wrath Castellan myself in my last game for the first time, I wasn't super impressed. Sure, the thing basically downs whatever the heck it wants but it costs 600 points and sucks CPs faster than smashcap. I had my Tsons+daemons, he had the castellan plus catachan brigade. He used a CP to make it a character and give it a trait, another to give it the relic, then 6 on his turn to use the Raven strat and Oathbreaker Guidance (he went first) and to try and re-roll the damage roll that went through vs Ahriman to try and kill him, which didn't work. Grand total, he did 4hp of damage to Ahriman, 3 points of damage to my LOC which he went after with carl's wrath, and 4 damage to a rhino with the secondary cannons.
Good damage? Yeah, sure, it was fine. He could also have wiped a rhino with Cawls Wrath if he'd wanted to, or a double butcher cannon contemptor dread - going after the LOC with a 3++ was probably a bad move. But for six command points, I could have gotten better mileage out of a smash captain or some other better CP-sucker unit and paid way less than 600 points. Then, on my turn, he had to burn another 3 to get the 3++ when I started declaring anti-tank weapons at it, and it basically cost me nothing to draw that out. His turn, he burned another 3 and left himself with 3 remaining, still didn't manage to kill the LOC, and on my turn I got Death Hex on it and got it to the third bracket
The thing burned 14/15 command points in a matter of 2 turns, didn't manage to kill anywhere near 600 points of units, and with just one psychic power I was able to strip nearly all its defenses away, besides the admittedly annoying T8. And all this was while I was putting most of my attention and resources to killing all the damn guardsmen he had with the knight, I used a good chunk of my CP and psychic powers buffing up my pink horror and tzaangor blob to sort them out.
Null Zone is already hard to cast as is, and you have to get it into the 6" zone. It isn't a good power for a reason.
Also your opponent going after the 3++ Lord of Change with such weapons was silly.
Good ol' Slayer "I put 1000 points of antitank shooting into my opponent's 3++ save Castellan, oh your opponent putting his Castellan into your 3++ save LOC was dumb that's why you won this confirms my bias" Fan.
You're not going to hear me defend Knights in their current state, and I personally think they need to be rewritten. I'm just saying your opponent wasn't the brightest crayon in the box is all.
True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
the_scotsman wrote: True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
See, here's where I kind of think people get lost in the weeds. What is meta is irrelevant to 98% of the players in this hobby. We just had an example above of a guy using a meta list of Castellan and Catachan brigade wasting his shooting on a LoC. Clearly the best 'meta' choices aren't relevant if you're making poor decisions in the game. Likewise, the 'inefficient' campy vets may not have been hugely meta today, but we have like 2 real tournaments to gauge DW post CA18 on and they've been performing very well. I would say the community spends too much time letting tournament lists speak for them and not enough time actually giving things legitimate consideration.
The SS/Stalker load out lacked mobility and was limited to 2 shots per model with high AP. You now have the option for a 3++ 18 point model to pump out 4 rounds down range to kill everything that could dakka them down with cheap volume of fire before they even get into rapid fire range.
the_scotsman wrote: True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
DW vets have actually been putting up tournament results post CA.
the_scotsman wrote: True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
DW vets have actually been putting up tournament results post CA.
Yeah, of the deep striking SS/SB variety. The sit in cover with longrange guns variety did not show up. Admittedly as the poster above me pointed out, we've only had a couple tournaments to judge them off of so hey, maybe DW vets chilling in cover with storm bolters becomes the new meta thing! I don't know! That'd be an interesting change for sure, the first big shift we've seen in a while.
the_scotsman wrote: True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
DW vets have actually been putting up tournament results post CA.
Yeah, of the deep striking SS/SB variety. The sit in cover with longrange guns variety did not show up. Admittedly as the poster above me pointed out, we've only had a couple tournaments to judge them off of so hey, maybe DW vets chilling in cover with storm bolters becomes the new meta thing! I don't know! That'd be an interesting change for sure, the first big shift we've seen in a while.
They aren't a different kind of vet. All of these vets are SB/SS with termies, blackshields, bikes and vanguard vets. This just gives those same vets another trick with the exact same units.
If the rule was modified to, in some way, affect all Marine bolt weapons in a similar manner, how would that change the internal balance of Marine units?
Maybe things like bolt pistols getting an extra shot full-stop, heavy bolters being considered rapid fire 2 for Marines, auto bolt rifles getting an extra shot within half range etc. Basically an equivalent damage output increase of an extra bolt shot in some circumstances.
topaxygouroun i wrote: How about a unit of 6 chosen with combi plasmas + lord? That would be 28 bolter shots + 7 plasma shots with reroll 1's. Enter 12" and you get the 14 overloaded plasma treatment. The combination costs about 230 pts and fits in a rhino.
...where are 14 of the bolter shots from the Chosen/Lord combo coming from? A combi-plasma is a boltgun welded to a plasma gun, and the boltgun is still dealing with a maximum shot volume fo 2 per weapon, even under this rule.
Haighus wrote: If the rule was modified to, in some way, affect all Marine bolt weapons in a similar manner, how would that change the internal balance of Marine units?
Maybe things like bolt pistols getting an extra shot full-stop, heavy bolters being considered rapid fire 2 for Marines, auto bolt rifles getting an extra shot within half range etc. Basically an equivalent damage output increase of an extra bolt shot in some circumstances.
I really like the idea of altering Heavy Bolters and pistols. Giving more shots to pistols will really beef up assault marines in close combat (and why arent they firing them wildly in close combat these days?). Heavy bolters are definitely a premier marine weapon that while cheap has not lived up to its full potential. Rapid fire 2 would go far to help it out as an assault weapon.
Of course, We can all still hope they will make a primaris marine with an onslaught cannon, because that would look amazing.
techsoldaten wrote: 2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…
TBH I think just the fact that Custodes don't get this should be a clear indicator to anyone who likes sisters that this is intended to be a Marines rule, and it buffs marines exactly where they need to be buffed: their basic functionality.
A SOB has pretty solid basic functionality. They cost about what a bolter wielding troop should cost. It's their "fancy schtick stuff" from the new beta codex that feels incredibly lacking, IMO.
Also, Retributors carry heavy bolters, right? Those guns that don't benefit from this rule anyway?
No one is arguing that it's clearly a rule intended for marines. The point has always been that there is just as much justification giving it to several other armies as well.
Also, It's good to see that you want sisters to be either S/T 4 WS 3+, or 6 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: .
While we are all sure that Sisters are good at using Bolters, a Marine will always just that much better at using them due to their augmentations and training.
Not all Sisters use Bolters, but EVERY Marine is trained extensively to do so.
-
Both of your points here have already been pointed out to not be true.
the_scotsman wrote: Also, Retributors carry heavy bolters, right? Those guns that don't benefit from this rule anyway?
Only 4 of them carry heavy bolters (or other multi-melta, or heavy flamers), the others are just carrying bolters. It would turn them from almost useless meatshield to somewhat useful when in range.
fraser1191 wrote: If that's the case than I'd say there's an argument for Black Templars getting acts of faith
I'm okay with Acts of Faith becoming the Templars Chapter Tactic. Not sure you are gaining much with this, but I'm fine with it. I mean, Crusaders aren't Sisters of Battle either and they already get the rule. And you can decry different armies sharing a rule all you want, but loyalist marines are like a 6 different armies sharing ATSKNF, and now all 9+ marines factions share the bolter buff rules, so you don't really have a leg to stand on.
No one is arguing that it's clearly a rule intended for marines. The point has always been that there is just as much justification giving it to several other armies as well.
Also, It's good to see that you want sisters to be either S/T 4 WS 3+, or 6 points.
Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines. Get it? Providing the buff to everyone else would reduce the impact of the buff to Marines, potentially necessitating another buff that you'll all belly ache about not getting.
No one is arguing that it's clearly a rule intended for marines. The point has always been that there is just as much justification giving it to several other armies as well.
Also, It's good to see that you want sisters to be either S/T 4 WS 3+, or 6 points.
Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines. Get it? Providing the buff to everyone else would reduce the impact of the buff to Marines, potentially necessitating another buff that you'll all belly ache about not getting.
Wow, now I see it. Everything I posted is wr...JK!
Yeah, I know it was made for marines because it says "Astartes and Heritic Astartes" all over it. So, now that we've finished discussing the wording on the rules, let me know what impact that has on the arguments I've already made, that you have yet to address.
Because so far you haven't said anything of actual value in regards to any of my posts.
No one is arguing that it's clearly a rule intended for marines. The point has always been that there is just as much justification giving it to several other armies as well.
Also, It's good to see that you want sisters to be either S/T 4 WS 3+, or 6 points.
Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines. Get it? Providing the buff to everyone else would reduce the impact of the buff to Marines, potentially necessitating another buff that you'll all belly ache about not getting.
Wow, now I see it. Everything I posted is wr...JK!
Yeah, I know it was made for marines because it says "Astartes and Heritic Astartes" all over it. So, now that we've finished discussing the wording on the rules, let me know what impact that has on the arguments I've already made, that you have yet to address.
Because so far you haven't said anything of actual value in regards to any of my posts.
I think he did, because he said this.
Providing the buff to everyone else would reduce the impact of the buff to Marines, potentially necessitating another buff that you'll all belly ache about not getting.
A rule availible to half the armies in the game is already diluted.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Besides a generally higher Strength
..and Toughness
...and weapons skill
...Oh, don't forget ballistic skill.
And leadership, which gets a reroll.
And the widest range of special and heavy weapons...
And the ability to split squads on demand (yes, I know it's not often used for a variety of reasons)
And access to characters that can crack a knight in half...
Shall I continue?
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
The real question is: what units in the entire 40k universe are good at taking on a castellan????
There's only one combo that is actually very powerful for that job, the farseer+harlequins bikes one. Nothing from a single codex can take down a castellan efficiently.
The best way to deal with the castellan is to ignore it, kill the rest of the army and focus to score points.
A rule availible to half the armies in the game is already diluted.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Besides a generally higher Strength
..and Toughness
...and weapons skill
...Oh, don't forget ballistic skill.
And leadership, which gets a reroll.
And the widest range of special and heavy weapons...
And the ability to split squads on demand (yes, I know it's not often used for a variety of reasons)
And access to characters that can crack a knight in half...
Shall I continue?
Except the statline on marines is mostly useless waste of points that never even factors into the unit's function. And most of the weapon options are gak not worth taking and there's only around 3 or so "viable" options. Nevermind that marines aren't special, and are one of the worst armies in the game currently with some even going down as low as 32%.
Frankly, i don't quite understand what they tried to achieve with this rule, a flat additional shot would've been better imo.
As for the whole sisters argument, we haven't seen their codex yet, the beta is altough gak, and i imagine that they will probably also get such a rule, however i would've preffered a rule that would've boosted melee instead since that is were marines pay premium without much impact. Fighting shooty stuff and shooting fighty stuff should be incentivied, this rule just incentivices more castly aura builds that rely upon Failbaddon and Rowboat.
Mmmpi wrote: Something like "Marines can use their bolters as pistols". like Space Wolves used to beable to?
That would increase their 'cc' attacks by 50% when fighting against hordes.
Yep, also make tacticals and CSM tactical flexibile again, meaning they get the whole shabbang free of charge (chainsword, bolter, boltpistol, nades, etc.)
LIKE WE USED TO BE ABLE TO FOR FREE.
Also where did my marks go!?!
Lemondish wrote: Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines.
Yes. There is an obvious difference between the 9+ marines factions, who all need it, despite being super-different from each others, and the Sisters of Battle and Custodes who don't need it. Of course! Remember how Death Guard is exactly the same as Deathwatch is exactly the same as Black Templar is exactly the same as Grey Knight, and how all those armies are exactly at the same power level, unlike Sisters that are very very different!
Lemondish wrote: Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines.
Yes. There is an obvious difference between the 9+ marines factions, who all need it, despite being super-different from each others, and the Sisters of Battle and Custodes who don't need it. Of course! Remember how Death Guard is exactly the same as Deathwatch is exactly the same as Black Templar is exactly the same as Grey Knight, and how all those armies are exactly at the same power level, unlike Sisters that are very very different!
The massive lumbering bloated resource suck of 9+ factions who are mostly the same unit with cosmetic differences or the relative few that are not should be a single unit. Pretty much every unit that is proclaimed as "unique" is not and should and could represent units across the vaious loyalist Astartes - eg the Wulfen have countnerparts in the Black Dragons and other Chapters
Conversely I don't mond "Marines" getting a boost - they do need it but pretending the rest is not true is disengeous in the same way as pretending that Astartes are better shots than Custodes.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.
Space Marines are Mary Sues.
Pick one of the above.
I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.
Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.
And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.
I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.
Space Marines are Mary Sues.
Pick one of the above.
I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.
Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.
And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.
I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?
Re write your rant with the word Marine instead of Sisters - be more accurate....
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.
Space Marines are Mary Sues.
Pick one of the above.
I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.
Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.
And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.
In your interpretation of the fluff.
The entire fluff argument boils down to whether a sacred devotion to training with the bolter above all else by fanatics is enough to make them as effective with it as soldiers with the ability to directly neurally link with their bolters, with faster processing and reflexes, and the need for only 4 hours sleep per day, but a wider repetoire of combat training. Aside from the black carapace, equipment is broadly equivalent. There are some other minor fluff aspects, but these are the main ones.
You feel the advantages of the Marine do not outweigh the fanatical training of the Sister of Battle, others feel the inherent advantages of the black carapace would allow them to use their bolters in a more instinctive, superior way than a "simple" HUD.
There are valid arguments either way, that are simply going in circles now. The only way this would be resolved is by GW choosing a side. It could be argued that this rule is a soft endorsement of Marines having somewhat better shooting than Sisters with bolters, but it is primarily aimed as a balance mechanism, so that is probably reading too much into it.
That is all there is to the whole argument overall.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.
Space Marines are Mary Sues.
Pick one of the above.
I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.
Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.
And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.
I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?
Re write your rant with the word Marine instead of Sisters - be more accurate....
Except I'm not calling Sisters Mary Sues now, am I?
When the Marines last time had this sort of rule was in the second edition, the same time SoB got their first codex and were truly defined as a faction. IIRC, the Sisters didn't get this rapid fire rule then either.
Crimson wrote: IIRC, the Sisters didn't get this rapid fire rule then either.
They didn't.
At the end of the day though the ting that should really matter when it comes to rules changes is the result. If a unit needs a buff it should get one, if it doesn't need the buff but is getting one due to sweeping changes it should cost more, and if a unit needs a buff but isn't getting one then it should probably cost less.
'Balancing to fluff' is what led to the daemons of chaos book.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.
Space Marines are Mary Sues.
Pick one of the above.
I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.
Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.
And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.
I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?
Of course. Considering you've done that, congratulations on the wasted time?
Nope, players treating them as Mary Sues is why.
Keep in mind by the way, that I've also said Custodies should have access to this rule as well before you keep going. So, when I mention that there are non-marines that could justifably be given this rule, it's because as the fluff currently stands, it's because it does. I've already suggested one marine rule that wouldn't work with sisters. If the marines got a toughness boost, I'd not say a word. Same with more attacks.
But hey, one ability that does cross over to three more armies is a "me me me". That was sarcasm btw.
Mmmpi wrote: So, when I mention that there are non-marines that could justifably be given this rule, it's because as the fluff currently stands, it's because it does.
So why then when the Sisters were first time properly introduced they weren't given this rule even though Marines had it at the time? The fluff has not changed.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.
Space Marines are Mary Sues.
Pick one of the above.
I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.
Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.
And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.
In your interpretation of the fluff.
The entire fluff argument boils down to whether a sacred devotion to training with the bolter above all else by fanatics is enough to make them as effective with it as soldiers with the ability to directly neurally link with their bolters, with faster processing and reflexes, and the need for only 4 hours sleep per day, but a wider repetoire of combat training. Aside from the black carapace, equipment is broadly equivalent. There are some other minor fluff aspects, but these are the main ones.
You feel the advantages of the Marine do not outweigh the fanatical training of the Sister of Battle, others feel the inherent advantages of the black carapace would allow them to use their bolters in a more instinctive, superior way than a "simple" HUD.
There are valid arguments either way, that are simply going in circles now. The only way this would be resolved is by GW choosing a side. It could be argued that this rule is a soft endorsement of Marines having somewhat better shooting than Sisters with bolters, but it is primarily aimed as a balance mechanism, so that is probably reading too much into it.
That is all there is to the whole argument overall.
No, the fluff as written.
The entire fluff argument boils down to whether devoted training is equivalent to devoted training. Space marines interface with their armor neurologically, not their bolters. Faster reflexes don't aid long range shots, practice and targeting discipline does. Which is practice. And a wider repetoire of combat training means less focus on an individual weapon.
I feel the advantages of a marine don't outweigh a sister at this specific skill. It could also be argued that they just didn't think about it considering they forgot to include The Fallen in with the rule, GW doesn't have a habit of always thinking things through.
May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?
You feel the advantages of the Marine do not outweigh the fanatical training of the Sister of Battle, others feel the inherent advantages of the black carapace would allow them to use their bolters in a more instinctive, superior way than a "simple" HUD.
But that is just not true. If fanatism was equal to training and superior tech, all the times in human history when fanatiscs were rolled over by trained armies just wouldn't happen. In fact if we go over the history of wars better training, better recruits and better weapons make it possible for armies to beat fanatical armies many times their size.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.
Space Marines are Mary Sues.
Pick one of the above.
I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.
Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.
And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.
I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?
Re write your rant with the word Marine instead of Sisters - be more accurate....
Except I'm not calling Sisters Mary Sues now, am I?
You didn't. The person I was responding to was acting like marines are. Hence the tag.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?
Last "Sisters" codex. Witchhunters 3rd ed.
Says their basic bolters were of higher quality, their armor of the same proteciveness, though with less protections against extreme hostile environments, and far less strength boosting, but with the same helmet tech.
But that is just not true. If fanatism was equal to training and superior tech, all the times in human history when fanatiscs were rolled over by trained armies just wouldn't happen. In fact if we go over the history of wars better training, better recruits and better weapons make it possible for armies to beat fanatical armies many times their size.
I didn't say fanaticism. I said devotion.
The fluff has been clear that the sister's issues with faith over tactics doesn't carry over to weapon skills.
I'm not claiming that a squad of sisters will out-tactics a squad of marines. I'm saying they shoot bolters just as well.
Says their basic bolters were of higher quality, their armor of the same proteciveness, though with less protections against extreme hostile environments, and far less strength boosting, but with the same helmet tech.
thank you very much. But this is just gear. A SM tactical would still have anywhere between 50 to 200years more training then a SoB. Plus it sounds a lot like SoB gear is kind of a like some of german stuff durning WWII, works perfect, but only in perfect conditions. Which more or less means that SoB can, sometimes, equal a marines shoting on a firing range.
I'm saying they shoot bolters just as well.
That would not be possible even against same type of trained un augmented men. Unless w40k does not follow the sexual dymorphism we have in the real world. Which may well be the case.
Says their basic bolters were of higher quality, their armor of the same proteciveness, though with less protections against extreme hostile environments, and far less strength boosting, but with the same helmet tech.
thank you very much. But this is just gear. A SM tactical would still have anywhere between 50 to 200years more training then a SoB. Plus it sounds a lot like SoB gear is kind of a like some of german stuff durning WWII, works perfect, but only in perfect conditions. Which more or less means that SoB can, sometimes, equal a marines shoting on a firing range.
I'm saying they shoot bolters just as well.
That would not be possible even against same type of trained un augmented men. Unless w40k does not follow the sexual dymorphism we have in the real world. Which may well be the case.
Nope Sister's gear, like all imperial prduced gear is super rugged and reliable.
As for training, a marine might have 50 years of experience, they typically grow up in a non-tech culture, so their formative years as marines require extensive retraining in fighting techniques (to take full advantage of higher tech weapons), while sisters are almost exclusively recruited from the Scholera, and start their training as pre-teens/early teens. The smaller amount of equipment sisters use, and the fact that they specilize, unlike most marine chapters, and factored with the shear breadth of training a marine undergoes, means that at a few skills, the sister is just as good. The difference is that a marine can operate on that level at dozens of skills and with a multitude of weapons. A sister meanwhile is that good with a bolter/stormbolter, a flamer, a melta, or one of the heavy versions of them. A marine can pick up a lascannon and use it with a high level of proficiency. A sister can't drop her bolter for a multi-melta the same way.
As for your 2nd quote: that's bullpecaque. Women can shoot just as well as men with the proper training, even in combat situations. A woman with training and a gun is just as dangerous as a man is. I dare you to say this to a woman in a line unit.
There was no fluff. The 2nd edition rapid fire rule described its function without any embellishment and existed solely to make the marines more powerful.
A Marine Rhino shoots more than a Sisters Rhino. For me that puts it more on the realm of better 'equipment' than training. Better sights or augmented superhuman eyes. For whatever reason, the marine vehicle can more effectively put more shots down range.
There was no fluff. The 2nd edition rapid fire rule described its function without any embellishment and existed solely to make the marines more powerful.
Says their basic bolters were of higher quality, their armor of the same proteciveness, though with less protections against extreme hostile environments, and far less strength boosting, but with the same helmet tech.
thank you very much. But this is just gear. A SM tactical would still have anywhere between 50 to 200years more training then a SoB. Plus it sounds a lot like SoB gear is kind of a like some of german stuff durning WWII, works perfect, but only in perfect conditions. Which more or less means that SoB can, sometimes, equal a marines shoting on a firing range.
I'm saying they shoot bolters just as well.
That would not be possible even against same type of trained un augmented men. Unless w40k does not follow the sexual dymorphism we have in the real world. Which may well be the case.
Nope Sister's gear, like all imperial prduced gear is super rugged and reliable.
As for training, a marine might have 50 years of experience, they typically grow up in a non-tech culture, so their formative years as marines require extensive retraining in fighting techniques (to take full advantage of higher tech weapons), while sisters are almost exclusively recruited from the Scholera, and start their training as pre-teens/early teens. The smaller amount of equipment sisters use, and the fact that they specilize, unlike most marine chapters, and factored with the shear breadth of training a marine undergoes, means that at a few skills, the sister is just as good. The difference is that a marine can operate on that level at dozens of skills and with a multitude of weapons. A sister meanwhile is that good with a bolter/stormbolter, a flamer, a melta, or one of the heavy versions of them. A marine can pick up a lascannon and use it with a high level of proficiency. A sister can't drop her bolter for a multi-melta the same way.
As for your 2nd quote: that's bullpecaque. Women can shoot just as well as men with the proper training, even in combat situations. A woman with training and a gun is just as dangerous as a man is. I dare you to say this to a woman in a line unit.
I wish that was true, but sadly woman for whatever reason are not as good shots as men generally speaking, but our training is nothing like the training they would receive in 40k, so I am fine with the abstraction being there.
It's the same abstraction that means marines don't get the full suit of sensors and equipment they have in the more, otherwise every marine would be bs2+, ignore night fight rules, have 3 wounds each etc.
Every game needs these abstractions to a certain extent.
Mmmpi wrote:[
No, the fluff as written.
The entire fluff argument boils down to whether devoted training is equivalent to devoted training. Space marines interface with their armor neurologically, not their bolters. Faster reflexes don't aid long range shots, practice and targeting discipline does. Which is practice. And a wider repetoire of combat training means less focus on an individual weapon.
I feel the advantages of a marine don't outweigh a sister at this specific skill. It could also be argued that they just didn't think about it considering they forgot to include The Fallen in with the rule, GW doesn't have a habit of always thinking things through.
They interface with their armour neurologically, and the armour is interfaced with the bolter- this has been in the fluff since at least 3rd edition. ALL Marine and Sisters bolters have built in autosenses linked directly to the armour. The difference is that Marines are also linked in directly to the bolter- they should be able to feel the bolter like a body part, rather than use it as a tool. I have no doubt that such autosense-linked bolters have proprioceptive sensors as part of the sensor suite, so that the armour is able to mitigate recoil effectively. This would give a Marine a tangible benefit as they could tell where their bolter is positioned far more instinctively. Whether you think that benefit is sufficiently great or not is absolutely your interpretation.
In terms of abstraction, we are looking at the difference between getting one aimed shot/burst off at a target dashing to cover at long range, or two shots/bursts off. None of this is sniper-type marksmanship, but the sort of mid-ranged snapshooting common in military applications. Reflexes absolutely do aid with that- targets are not usually exposed for long before reaching cover. It is part of the reason so much development work has gone into rifles like the HK G11 and Russian AN-94, which have the intention of firing more shots in the same aiming time to increase hit chances at medium-long range for those rifles. I think it is entirely plausible that a Marine is able to spot the target breaking cover, aim, fire, reacquire the target after recoil and fire again, in the time where even a very well-trained unaugmented human could only fire once before the target reached cover again (if they survived).
Good bionics would likely close the gap somewhat in this regard, like they can for anything in 40k.
Karol wrote:May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?
You feel the advantages of the Marine do not outweigh the fanatical training of the Sister of Battle, others feel the inherent advantages of the black carapace would allow them to use their bolters in a more instinctive, superior way than a "simple" HUD.
But that is just not true. If fanatism was equal to training and superior tech, all the times in human history when fanatiscs were rolled over by trained armies just wouldn't happen. In fact if we go over the history of wars better training, better recruits and better weapons make it possible for armies to beat fanatical armies many times their size.
I specifically said fanatical training for a reason, not fanatical lunacy on the battlefield- they see rigorous training as a fanatical duty, which is actually a good thing. Well trained, equipped, and otherwise sensible fanatical troops are incredibly dangerous adversaries, because they possess the important quality of high motivation. It depends on how they view their fanaticism, and the resources available to them.
Not seen that one before, only checked the 2nd ed Ultramarines and codex imperialis.
Insectum7 wrote: A Marine Rhino shoots more than a Sisters Rhino. For me that puts it more on the realm of better 'equipment' than training. Better sights or augmented superhuman eyes. For whatever reason, the marine vehicle can more effectively put more shots down range.
Which is odd given that the sisters rhino is a move advanced model which, among other things, moved the stormbolter from its pintle mount to a powered turret.
Or rather it would be odd if any of this was to do with fluff, as opposed to being a sweeping rule to make marines more powerful. Both now and in 2nd edition.
^the Rapid Fired rule is in the main rulebook for 2nd ed. Rules/fluff was all over thd place, I think the most information about auto-senses is under the photon flash grenade section in the wargear book.
Is the Sisters Rhino actually more advanced? The Storm Bolter can be turret od pintle mounted (all mine are turret), and my thinking is that there's just minor variations depending on the Forge World or even order request.
I also think that primarily it's a design decision and less about fluff, although the two are somewhat related. There's a soft erosion in subsequent editions for marines that is more apparent now that we're back to a save mod system. But more importantly, I think GW has enough room here for "bolter discipline" design-wise, fluff or not.
I mean, IG can fire twice as fast with a guy yelling at them, and marines are more accurate with a captain near them. It doesn't matter too much what the justification is, or how realistic. It matters a bit, sure, but not to the extent implied by the discussion.
Off topic but yet, it's in one of the old forgeworld books that I don't have to hand right now. Admech designed it around the crusade/heresy for better visibility, powered front turret, more spacious interior, etc. Marines rejected it IIRC due to the higher profile. Would have to dig the book out.
Karol wrote: May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?
You're aware that proto-sisters of battle (back when they were mostly harem/bodyguard unit) kicked the arse of multiple space marine chapters trying to get into Imperial Palace (including the eternal jobbers, Fists, who were already inside) sending them packing to the point even Custodes decided to try parley instead of fighting, yes?
Since then, Sisters gained thousands of years of institutional experience, are selected from top Schola material, instead of being random women from some backwater planet, are trained to the regimen even Stormtroopers find excessive, got much better gear than they had back then, and gained veterans of their own to pass experience and train new generation using best practices.
Gee, that sure sounds they are inferior to their ancient predecessors and have no business comparing themselves to the faction they utterly stomped before, eh?
See also one of their first art pieces ever, guess who was sent to purge a rogue chapter and apparently did that with minimal casualties?
Off topic but yet, it's in one of the old forgeworld books that I don't have to hand right now. Admech designed it around the crusade/heresy for better visibility, powered front turret, more spacious interior, etc. Marines rejected it IIRC due to the higher profile. Would have to dig the book out.
I've just looked through every FW book with a reference to SoB I can think of, and only found this passage of relevance in IA2 Second edition:
Imperial Armour 2 Second Edition, pg233 wrote:On the whole, the differences between the MkIIc used so extensively by the Space Marines and the MkIIIa used by Sisters of Battle are largely cosmetic. It is generally held that the larger number of vision blocks make the vehicle a superior transport when used in dense terrain, allowing passengers to locate enemies within 360 degrees and to engage them without delay upon disembarkation. The Sisters of Battle are fiercely proud of the MkIIIa and its distinctive profile, despite criticisms that it makes the vehicle an easier target for enemy anti-tank gunners.
Nothing mentioned about technological differences, more that the specific structural layouts and vision blocks provides advantages in situational awareness at the cost of increased profile.
But isn’t everyone from the Schola Progenium top material, since they, ya know, the drill abbots kill everybody else?
The Militarum Tempestus codex (even if a burning pile of crap (which I personally enjoy), it is probably the authorative work on what happens in a Schola Progenium) says that female Progena with fine military skills and strong faith go into the Sororitas ranks.
However, it says immediately after that the most talented warriors go to the Militarum Tempestus and Officio Prefectus.
Therefore, by martial talent alone, the Storm Bolters on Taurox Primes should benefit from Bolter Discipline before Sisters do.
Karol wrote: May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?
You're aware that proto-sisters of battle (back when they were mostly harem/bodyguard unit) kicked the arse of multiple space marine chapters trying to get into Imperial Palace (including the eternal jobbers, Fists, who were already inside) sending them packing to the point even Custodes decided to try parley instead of fighting, yes?
Since then, Sisters gained thousands of years of institutional experience, are selected from top Schola material, instead of being random women from some backwater planet, are trained to the regimen even Stormtroopers find excessive, got much better gear than they had back then, and gained veterans of their own to pass experience and train new generation using best practices.
Gee, that sure sounds they are inferior to their ancient predecessors and have no business comparing themselves to the faction they utterly stomped before, eh?
See also one of their first art pieces ever, guess who was sent to purge a rogue chapter and apparently did that with minimal casualties?
Spoiler:
Codex: Sisters of battle Second edition, pg 13 wrote:Although much of the Ecclesiarchal palace had fallen into ruin, the central complex which housed Vandire's throne room still remained an almost impregnable fortress. For months the combined forces of the Tech-Guard and Space marines tried to breach its walls, only to be constantly thwarted by the Brides of the Emperor, who numbered some 10,000 fighters by this time.
pg 14 wrote:The 4,000 fighters who had survived the onslaught of the Space Marines and Tech-Guard slowly filed into the massive room.
I mean, sure, they held out against significant forces, but they were in a massively fortified, self-contained region of the Imperial Palace, which is an enormous complex spanning a former mountain range, not a single building, so there is no relevance to the Imperial Fists being in a separate part of it. They held out for months, which is impressive, but I'm not sure if it constitutes "arse kicking" when they loose over half their numbers in what was described as an "onslaught". Of course, without knowledge of the numbers of Tech-Guard and Space Marines, or their losses, we don't really have sufficient information to declare it as anything more than a successful defense for months.
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
Mmmpi wrote: Good luck with you game. I hope it works well for you!
Thanks, we shall see. It'll be an 800 point game and I have 12 bolters and 4 storm bolters (3 of which are on vehicles and a Terminator).
So I played 2 games today - one against Tyranids and one against Necrons. Against the Tyranids the new rule was really good. Against the Necrons it made less difference as the shooting was mostly beyond bolter range or across LOS blocking terrain. Both games ended in a draw, although I had more points left on the table against the Tyranids. In all it felt like a nice buff that improved the balance.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
And Custodes?
Custodes don’t bother, being warrior-scholars. In the same fashion that they don’t bother to get Special Issue Ammo.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
And Custodes?
Custodes don’t bother, being warrior-scholars. In the same fashion that they don’t bother to get Special Issue Ammo.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
And Custodes?
Custodes don’t bother, being warrior-scholars. In the same fashion that they don’t bother to get Special Issue Ammo.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
And Custodes?
More importantly - and why do the new trainees who are not in power armour (and therefore don't get the black carapace link) get the rule (Scouts)?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
And Custodes?
More importantly - and why do the new trainees who are not in power armour (and therefore don't get the black carapace link) get the rule (Scouts)?
Because of this being implanted in to an aspirant at the age of 16-18
Spoiler:
Occulobe:
This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in dayligh
I think that the idea behind the bolter rule is not so much that marines are better than anyone else with bolters but that it is a weapon that is essential to their identity, that they know by heart.
Custodes, altho I personally believe should have the bolter discipline rule, do not specifically care about bolters : all their weapons are close combat weapons that also have the capacity to shoot but it is really secondary to their esthetics/identity imo.
Played a game last night using the beta bolter rules against a Drukhari list.
My Black Legion list was tailored to maximize the number of combi-bolters along with the overall speed of the army. It consisted of:
- Chaos Lord on Bike, Combi-Bolter, Black Mace
- Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor, Prescience / Warptime
- 3 x 20 man Cultist squads
- 2x Chaos Terminators, combi-bolters and power axes
- 3x Chosen, 8 men, 5 combi-bolters and a plasma gun
- 3x Rhinos, 2 combi-bolters each
- Helbrute, scourge and twin lascannons
- 3x Bikers, 3 man, no upgrades
- Heldrake, Hades Autocannon
For a total of 37 combi-bolters and 6 Bolters. Not a lot of heavy weapons, but there's a lot of shots each turn.
I don't have the Drukhari list, the important parts were a Void Raven, 3 Ravagers with disintegrator cannons, 3 Venoms, Jetbikes, Mandrakes, and some Kabbalites. It's a competitive list, I've fought it before and always get screwed up by the disintegrator cannons and the mandrakes.
General Impressions:
1) My overall impression: the volume of fire with the beta rule is impressive. Four shots from a single model at 24 inches was striking, there was a turn where I fired over 100 bolter rounds.
2) There's a world of difference between combi-bolters and straight bolters. Instead of chipping off a wound here or there, units were falling to the volume of fire.
3) Bikes are a lot better with the beta rule. I can see cheap bike squads that move up, shoot and charge being a thing now.
4) Terminators with combi-bolters might be viable. They got their work done with axes, but I didn't feel like I had to have combi-plasma on all of them.
5) Rhinos with double combi-bolters are interesting. They were being ignored, but the 8 shots proved useful more than once.
I deployed the Cultist, Chosen in Rhinos, Helbrute, Heldrake, Bikes and Chaos Lord spread across my table edge. I got first turn and everything in my army had something within 24 inches by turn 2. My guys unloaded with Bolter shots that turn, which let me take out 2 Venoms and most of the Jetbikes. I also had the Terminators and the Sorcerer drop in that turn to make things hard for my opponent.
While I didn't win this kill-point game, I could see how a list like this could be optimized, maybe as another Chapter. Throughout the game, I was thinking it would have more interesting as World Eaters, where the combi-bolters may have provided some cover for advancing Berzerkers. The number of shots from a combi-weapon gets your opponent's attention.
At one point, my opponent and I discussed the similarities between combi-weapons and Sonic Blasters. I was a Noise Marine player at the start of 8th edition, the beta rule brings the combi-bolter a lot closer to being the same gun with one more shot and without the ignores cover rule. I'm not sure it would look this way without massed combi-bolters, you really need a lot of shots to see any benefit. But, when you are spraying a ton of shots, good things do happen. I could almost see Chosen in an Emperor's Children list just to benefit from the strikes first rule.
Overall, my impressions were that the units that most benefit from the beta rule are Bikers and Rhinos.
For Bikers, these were minimum sized units that were moving up the board, spraying a ton of shots then charging. It would be a good way to clear Chaff / Light Infantry / Orks early in the game. The fact they are small, separate units could mess with an opponent's target priority. But it's the fact they are laying out 12 shots each - for a total of 36 - that made them appealing. They were able to take a Venom down to 1 wound before the charge and that proved to be important.
Rhinos are surprising good for the points. After they discharged their occupants, my opponent ignored them and that didn't work out well for him. His Mandrakes wiped out a squad of Cultists and one Rhino was able to kill the last 2 models in his squad. While 8 shots is not amazing, it was enough to score some clutch wounds.
While the beta bolter rule was useful on Terminators, they weren't doing anything they couldn't do better with combi-plasma. If anything, the big impact is in terms of list building, it makes an expensive unit a little cheaper while not sacrificing too much offense.
However - the Terminators only got to shoot for one turn before they were charged, after that, they were just consolidating into other combats. Given this, I'm not sure the combi-plasma would have been worth it in the first place.
Honorable mention for the Chosen unit that got into cover and withstood an enormous amount of shooting without taking a wound.
Thanks for the breakdown, techsoldaten. It’s nice to have some on-topic information. I am planning to try bikers myself alongside my World Eaters, either in the WE detachment or in a renegade detachment for advance/charge shenanigans.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
And Custodes?
More importantly - and why do the new trainees who are not in power armour (and therefore don't get the black carapace link) get the rule (Scouts)?
Because of this being implanted in to an aspirant at the age of 16-18
Spoiler:
Occulobe:
This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in dayligh
Sisters (and space marine) helmets have night vision optics.
Played a game last night using the beta bolter rules against a Drukhari list.
My Black Legion list was tailored to maximize the number of combi-bolters along with the overall speed of the army. It consisted of:
- Chaos Lord on Bike, Combi-Bolter, Black Mace
- Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor, Prescience / Warptime
- 3 x 20 man Cultist squads
- 2x Chaos Terminators, combi-bolters and power axes
- 3x Chosen, 8 men, 5 combi-bolters and a plasma gun
- 3x Rhinos, 2 combi-bolters each
- Helbrute, scourge and twin lascannons
- 3x Bikers, 3 man, no upgrades
- Heldrake, Hades Autocannon
For a total of 37 combi-bolters and 6 Bolters. Not a lot of heavy weapons, but there's a lot of shots each turn.
I don't have the Drukhari list, the important parts were a Void Raven, 3 Ravagers with disintegrator cannons, 3 Venoms, Jetbikes, Mandrakes, and some Kabbalites. It's a competitive list, I've fought it before and always get screwed up by the disintegrator cannons and the mandrakes.
General Impressions:
1) My overall impression: the volume of fire with the beta rule is impressive. Four shots from a single model at 24 inches was striking, there was a turn where I fired over 100 bolter rounds.
2) There's a world of difference between combi-bolters and straight bolters. Instead of chipping off a wound here or there, units were falling to the volume of fire.
3) Bikes are a lot better with the beta rule. I can see cheap bike squads that move up, shoot and charge being a thing now.
4) Terminators with combi-bolters might be viable. They got their work done with axes, but I didn't feel like I had to have combi-plasma on all of them.
5) Rhinos with double combi-bolters are interesting. They were being ignored, but the 8 shots proved useful more than once.
I deployed the Cultist, Chosen in Rhinos, Helbrute, Heldrake, Bikes and Chaos Lord spread across my table edge. I got first turn and everything in my army had something within 24 inches by turn 2. My guys unloaded with Bolter shots that turn, which let me take out 2 Venoms and most of the Jetbikes. I also had the Terminators and the Sorcerer drop in that turn to make things hard for my opponent.
While I didn't win this kill-point game, I could see how a list like this could be optimized, maybe as another Chapter. Throughout the game, I was thinking it would have more interesting as World Eaters, where the combi-bolters may have provided some cover for advancing Berzerkers. The number of shots from a combi-weapon gets your opponent's attention.
At one point, my opponent and I discussed the similarities between combi-weapons and Sonic Blasters. I was a Noise Marine player at the start of 8th edition, the beta rule brings the combi-bolter a lot closer to being the same gun with one more shot and without the ignores cover rule. I'm not sure it would look this way without massed combi-bolters, you really need a lot of shots to see any benefit. But, when you are spraying a ton of shots, good things do happen. I could almost see Chosen in an Emperor's Children list just to benefit from the strikes first rule.
Overall, my impressions were that the units that most benefit from the beta rule are Bikers and Rhinos.
For Bikers, these were minimum sized units that were moving up the board, spraying a ton of shots then charging. It would be a good way to clear Chaff / Light Infantry / Orks early in the game. The fact they are small, separate units could mess with an opponent's target priority. But it's the fact they are laying out 12 shots each - for a total of 36 - that made them appealing. They were able to take a Venom down to 1 wound before the charge and that proved to be important.
Rhinos are surprising good for the points. After they discharged their occupants, my opponent ignored them and that didn't work out well for him. His Mandrakes wiped out a squad of Cultists and one Rhino was able to kill the last 2 models in his squad. While 8 shots is not amazing, it was enough to score some clutch wounds.
While the beta bolter rule was useful on Terminators, they weren't doing anything they couldn't do better with combi-plasma. If anything, the big impact is in terms of list building, it makes an expensive unit a little cheaper while not sacrificing too much offense.
However - the Terminators only got to shoot for one turn before they were charged, after that, they were just consolidating into other combats. Given this, I'm not sure the combi-plasma would have been worth it in the first place.
Honorable mention for the Chosen unit that got into cover and withstood an enormous amount of shooting without taking a wound.
Thanks for the write up and test. Can't wait to hear the results of a WE test run, if you do one.
Sisters (and space marine) helmets have night vision optics.
But sisters don't have:
modified eyes.
modified brain structure and chemistry to react faster.
And in case of non scouts, the neural link between the armor, weapon system and marine.
Even the helmet targeting system, works better for marines with black carapace then for unaugmented sister. We are comparing manual systems to fully integrated ones with support. That is why I said that SoB training is not enough, they would have to litteraly use magic while shoting like orcs to be equal to marines. Not impossible, but it does not make them anywhere near as good shots.
BaconCatBug wrote: The beta bolter rule has NOTHING to do with the bolter itself, it's representing the inherent superhuman nature of Astartes.
the thing with black carapace is that with it the bolter kind of a becomes the part of a marines body. The only way for it to be more part of his body, is if the marine in question was some Iron Hand and had the bolter build in to his arm.
No its a pure balancing mechanism otherwise Custodes would have it (or better).
There are people who are good at melee just because. I go to a sports school, and we have a guy who trains wrestling. He is great at ju jistu, boxing, kick boxing etc. Even if he does not train them. On top of natural skills he has a killer body, 1,82cm high 90kg weight and he is 2 years older then me. When we first saw him we thought he was an instructur and not a 3ed year. Custodes are like that, they are great with all weapons, they have perfect bodies, but they train in very specific ways of combat. Marines are no where near as good as custodes, but because of how they are trained, how they go through being devs, assaults, scouts etc they are perfect warriors with all types of warfare. Now in rules those perfect tactical warriors suck, but it is good that GW is trying to give marines rules to make them better.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.
And Custodes?
More importantly - and why do the new trainees who are not in power armour (and therefore don't get the black carapace link) get the rule (Scouts)?
Because of this being implanted in to an aspirant at the age of 16-18
Spoiler:
Occulobe:
This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in dayligh
*listens to the sound of the goalposts moving again*
Also, which of your characters is posting in this thread, Karol?
The reasoning given for SM getting this was black carapace integration giving them a link to the bolter - not the occulobe's improved vision. And given that the effective range of a boltgun in 40k is apparently ~50 yards, I doubt the improved eyesight is doing much...
Cybtroll wrote: I would prefer a +1 to rapid fire, in order to dissuade a static gunline and to push marine as a mobile force apt to close firefight.
But I play DA and my marine already move very little... while my bike can easily get an Ignore Cover to boot, so I will not complain.
I usually play a Black Legion gunline with ~30 CSMs.
Originally, I thought the beta Bolter rule should be modified to an AP -1. Unless your opponent is moving at you with light infantry, it offers very little real benefit. Agreed that Marines should be a mobile force geared towards a close firefight.
But then I played another game, this time with Bikes and Terminators. Combi-Bolters have a big volume of fire, 4 shots per model all the time meant I was rolling a lot of dice. I flooded an opponent with Bikes, Terminators and Chosen with Combi-Bolters and put out a lot of damage. So it is possible to move with this force and get the rapid fire shooting, the only thing I have to say is it only really matters when it's massed and you are hitting an opponent early in the game.
So I'm asking myself what's the benefit of AP -1 compared to 2 shots - a 16% weaker saving throw compared with more chances to wound. The math favors Bolters against MEQ and below, it doesn't work as well against TEQ and above. That's probably how it should be, but the downside is there's situations where you have a CSM squad standing there with no good targets to shoot at. Everything else that can carry a Bolter gets rapid fire all the time.
I think it makes more sense to have Bolters be stronger against Infantry and the same against armor. The net effect is probably going to be that people use Tacticals / CSMs less in favor of Bikes / Terminators, but it's early to say that. Also, game size matters, I've been testing the beta Bolter rule at 2,000 points and I'd probably play it differently at 1,000 or on a smaller board. My 1,000 point list is Cultist-heavy and there may be reasons to want to use CSMs there.
My next game is with my Grey Knights, who have a Land Raider Crusader and a Storm Raven. Really looking forward to seeing how Hurricane Bolters perform. One of the things that irritates me about Interceptors is the impulse to always teleport within double tap range (I lose a lot of troops that way.) Thinking this may affect how I play them, maybe by teleporting into cover somewhere within 24 inches first turn before deep strikers arrive to give me a massed fist.
One thing that's definitely true, this rule favors highly mobile units. Being able to immediately get in someone's face and throw down a lot of dice is a different experience than how I've been playing.
WhiteDog wrote: I think that the idea behind the bolter rule is not so much that marines are better than anyone else with bolters but that it is a weapon that is essential to their identity, that they know by heart.
WhiteDog wrote: I think that the idea behind the bolter rule is not so much that marines are better than anyone else with bolters but that it is a weapon that is essential to their identity, that they know by heart.
It's even more the case for Sisters.
Tbh it'd probably be reasonable to give this rule to sisters for 1-2 more points.
For Bikers, these were minimum sized units that were moving up the board, spraying a ton of shots then charging. It would be a good way to clear Chaff / Light Infantry / Orks early in the game. The fact they are small, separate units could mess with an opponent's target priority. But it's the fact they are laying out 12 shots each - for a total of 36 - that made them appealing. They were able to take a Venom down to 1 wound before the charge and that proved to be important.
Your sarge can get an extra combi bolter. Each unit of bikes can shoot 16.
Sisters (and space marine) helmets have night vision optics.
But sisters don't have:
modified eyes.
modified brain structure and chemistry to react faster.
And in case of non scouts, the neural link between the armor, weapon system and marine.
Even the helmet targeting system, works better for marines with black carapace then for unaugmented sister. We are comparing manual systems to fully integrated ones with support. That is why I said that SoB training is not enough, they would have to litteraly use magic while shoting like orcs to be equal to marines. Not impossible, but it does not make them anywhere near as good shots.
All of which have already been addressed.
Besides, improved eyes don't help when you're relying on the exact same helmet sensors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BroodSpawn wrote: Are you guys still jumping through hoops to try and get a rule onto factions other than the one it's designed for?
I'll be honest here. This rule doesn't really seem designed, so much as slapped on. It doesn't even apply to all Astartes in the game.
Looking at deathwatch RPG, it doesn't look like sisters have the same helmet sensors or even similar ones, probably an oversight though, did they add them in dark heresy ?
Mmmpi, would you give it a rest mate. Half this thread has been derailed.
I like the change because it threatens eldar, guardsmen, gaunts, orcs, firewarriors – all the troublemakers.
It buffs centurions, termis and rhinos in particular, all great choices.
It syncs really well with Imperial Fist Siegebreaker dreads and centurions, and Indomitus primaris vets.
All in all, I think it's a really solid call from GW. It doesn't solve the knight problem for SMs, but considering they're clearly balancing the game around soup, it isn't supposed to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I don't see it as slapped on. It's specified to effect different units types according to their battlefield roles and their current power. It addresses termi obsolescence and the fact that SM vehicles receive zero help from faction traits, for example.
Rhinos are surprising good for the points. After they discharged their occupants, my opponent ignored them and that didn't work out well for him. His Mandrakes wiped out a squad of Cultists and one Rhino was able to kill the last 2 models in his squad. While 8 shots is not amazing, it was enough to score some clutch wounds.
The doublestorm bolter Rhino now makes a better gunboat than the ostensibly much more heavily armed Chimera with the news rules
WhiteDog wrote: I think that the idea behind the bolter rule is not so much that marines are better than anyone else with bolters but that it is a weapon that is essential to their identity, that they know by heart.
