Jackal90 wrote: It’s not my view at all.
Selecting specific comparisons to prove an argument (while ignoring closer comparisons) is simply pointless.
But since this is the way you wish to compare, let’s.
Mortarion and Magnus are both insanely priced for “characters” in comparison to forgeworld praetors.
This just proves how disingenuous you are and that you have no real desire for a discussion. If you think comparing a demon prince monstrous creature to a generic mid level marine character is the same thing then we're done.
You’re not comparing like for like though. Mephiston is a plastic, mass produced product. The model you’re comparing it to is primarily sold as a collectors display piece. Sure it’s expensive, but it’s not filling the same niche as Mephiston.
Both are characters used for a game. It seems exactly the same niche. (Resin models, by the way, aren't some hand-crafted, unique objects. They're mould-cast pieces as well.)
You can stick either one in a case and call it a 'display piece' as well, if collection is all you want out of them.
Agreed. They're both mass produced (albeit via different methods with varying pros/cons) and can both be used as display pieces. I do agree with General Kroll that the FW character is more likely to be sold as one though but it doesn't negate its other use as a practical game piece. I don't personally see the value in that base (that I can 95% replicate by going to my bits box and back yard) to justify the cost increase. It's a different story IMO when you have those older two character dioramas that interconnect though or the more ornate personalized bases that primarchs come with (Horus and Roboute being the top two that come to mind). As always with art (even mass produced ones!), the beauty is in the eye of the beholder though so YMMV.
Why not?
You see no issue with comparing a generic plastic marine character to one of forgeworlds character series sculpts.
My comparison is simply playing by the rules of “they are both characters”
So drop the daemon primarch part, that’s irrelevant if character series also means nothing.
Comparisons are literally pointless unless you try to make them as similar as possible.
So maybe try aiming for a realistic one instead?
Something like 30k consoles and 40k marine LT’s.
Or apothecaries since both have them.
Praetors and captains.
There’s some realistic comparisons.
Granted, both have been hiked to the price of stupidity in some cases, but people are still buying them.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Really surprised they havent considered licensing out at least the smaller bits to other bits places
Palming the blame onto recasters is nonsence, as I understand their prices are based off % of GW rrp but FW prices are so excessive that just buying for example a legit stock rhino or a demios from a recaster comes in at the same without the morality or quality issues but all GW sees is FW stuff not selling
I suspect that FW is under orders to retain a hefty GW-like margin on their products, but that's harder when it's labor-intensive resin than the plastic that GW proper sells. I'm not advocating for recasters here. But there is obviously such a thing as a product that's just too expensive to get the volume of sales needed to keep the operation afloat.
Of course, when they sell as many Warlord Titans has they have, that suggests to me that whale-hunting might still be profitable for FW. As AT develops more Titan types, we can probably expect to see them come to resin for that select group. But in no way is 30K a growth product overall, and with most SG releases exceeding their expectations...it's certainly possible that its days are numbered. And they don't actually need steady support for 30K to sell to whales. They could end the black books entirely but still whip up a 30K datasheet when they need to for the BIG THING du jour.
If you're planning on getting that one, I'd grab it now. The pads are redundant (sold separately from Heresy) and the torsos/heads not amazingly unique or necessary (there is a plastic kit) so I reckon it'll be next on the block.
Galas wrote: I believe the death of HH is just a normal consecuence of the death of FW.
FW as we knew it this past 15 years Is not gonna last very long. They are being repurposed as the specialist studio guys, doing core games with plastics and then resin add-ons. I believe GW just doesn't want that much resin production, I suppose the manpower and the costs aren't just as profitable as mass produced HIPS plastics .
It's not just the big centerpieces all sorts of obscure units are being made in plastic. I mean if a few years ago you'd told me plastic Escher were coming I'd call you a liar. If you'd also said a second kit of Esher juves with bows and champs with bigger hair were also coming, I'd never believe it.
If resin goes away I'd give a good chance that plastic Krieg are coming, and only slightly less odds on plastic Estonian Drop Troops.
Galas wrote: I believe the death of HH is just a normal consecuence of the death of FW.
FW as we knew it this past 15 years Is not gonna last very long. They are being repurposed as the specialist studio guys, doing core games with plastics and then resin add-ons. I believe GW just doesn't want that much resin production, I suppose the manpower and the costs aren't just as profitable as mass produced HIPS plastics .
It's not just the big centerpieces all sorts of obscure units are being made in plastic. I mean if a few years ago you'd told me plastic Escher were coming I'd call you a liar. If you'd also said a second kit of Esher juves with bows and champs with bigger hair were also coming, I'd never believe it.
If resin goes away I'd give a good chance that plastic Krieg are coming, and only slightly less odds on plastic Estonian Drop Troops.
Only reason I have a Horus heresy army is betrayal at dalton and burning of Prospero and I knew from the start that I wasn’t going to win too many games with that army.
I'm a little bummed that they didn't advertise any of the stuff going LCTB. I would bought some more UM terminator shoulder pads and land raider doors had I been aware.
Sadly the way FW often puts things out of production is to wait until the mould breaks and then just not renew it. So its not a case of "X casts and its done" but more a case of waiting till it breaks and then reviewing if they want to make another.
It's a very annoying thing, heck around christmas they dropped a good dozen or so very good AoS models. They got "last chance" warnings but it wasn't to a date it was until the mould broke so they went out of stock very fast.
Out of interest has anyone else recently received an email from FW saying "Still deciding? Time is running out..." mentioning anything they've left in their basket?
Had one very recently about the Chimera autocannon turret and sure enough it was OOP 2 days later. Latest one was for a Grey Knight Land Raider that again was in my basket.
It's most likely coincidence but you never know, this could be a way of saying there's a couple left on the shelf and the mould's knackered.
Overread wrote: Sadly the way FW often puts things out of production is to wait until the mould breaks and then just not renew it. So its not a case of "X casts and its done" but more a case of waiting till it breaks and then reviewing if they want to make another.
It's a very annoying thing, heck around christmas they dropped a good dozen or so very good AoS models. They got "last chance" warnings but it wasn't to a date it was until the mould broke so they went out of stock very fast.
This makes me wonder if everyone got their orders, or just order rates are sufficiently low that they have time to pull things as soon as the mould breaks and not have to worry.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: It's not just the big centerpieces all sorts of obscure units are being made in plastic. I mean if a few years ago you'd told me plastic Escher were coming I'd call you a liar. If you'd also said a second kit of Esher juves with bows and champs with bigger hair were also coming, I'd never believe it.
If resin goes away I'd give a good chance that plastic Krieg are coming, and only slightly less odds on plastic Estonian Drop Troops.
I mean if you told me the only 21st century nation to survive into the 41st millennium was Estonia I think I'd have trouble believing it too.
Overread wrote: Sadly the way FW often puts things out of production is to wait until the mould breaks and then just not renew it. So its not a case of "X casts and its done" but more a case of waiting till it breaks and then reviewing if they want to make another.
It's a very annoying thing, heck around christmas they dropped a good dozen or so very good AoS models. They got "last chance" warnings but it wasn't to a date it was until the mould broke so they went out of stock very fast.
This makes me wonder if everyone got their orders, or just order rates are sufficiently low that they have time to pull things as soon as the mould breaks and not have to worry.
It used to be that the stock available from the website was the completed product ready to ship (unless it was marked 'cast to order', like the T'au Manta), so if got what you were able to order. I guess things go LCTB when they think they can only get a handful more out of the mould, and suddenly disappear if it unexpectedly dies.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: It's not just the big centerpieces all sorts of obscure units are being made in plastic. I mean if a few years ago you'd told me plastic Escher were coming I'd call you a liar. If you'd also said a second kit of Esher juves with bows and champs with bigger hair were also coming, I'd never believe it.
If resin goes away I'd give a good chance that plastic Krieg are coming, and only slightly less odds on plastic Estonian Drop Troops.
I mean if you told me the only 21st century nation to survive into the 41st millennium was Estonia I think I'd have trouble believing it too.
Overread wrote: Sadly the way FW often puts things out of production is to wait until the mould breaks and then just not renew it. So its not a case of "X casts and its done" but more a case of waiting till it breaks and then reviewing if they want to make another.
It's a very annoying thing, heck around christmas they dropped a good dozen or so very good AoS models. They got "last chance" warnings but it wasn't to a date it was until the mould broke so they went out of stock very fast.
I guess that could be part of it, but when a bunch of related or similar products disappear at the same time, it surely isn't just about moulds wearing down?
It might be nothing, but the FW Facebook page seems to be re-branding itself - the logo is now the Eye of Horus and the description is:
It is an Age of Darkness – the Emperor's favourite son has turned against his father, and brother fights against brother in a battle that will determine the fate of the entire galaxy. The Horus Heresy game lets you recreate these bitter conflicts on the tabletop. Here, on the official Facebook page for The Horus Heresy, we will share all of the latest news and updates for the game, along with painting guides, model reveals, tactics and more. This is your ideal hub for everything about the 31st Millennium.
If you’re looking to keep up with the latest Adeptus Titanicus goings-on, we’ve got good news. The Forge World Facebook page is being transformed into the Horus Heresy Facebook page – the best spot on social media to discuss all things Age of Darkness from tiny Titans to Horus Heresy armies. If you haven’t already, give us a like to make sure you get the latest news and fun stuff delivered right to your newsfeed.
Overread wrote: Sadly the way FW often puts things out of production is to wait until the mould breaks and then just not renew it. So its not a case of "X casts and its done" but more a case of waiting till it breaks and then reviewing if they want to make another.
It's a very annoying thing, heck around christmas they dropped a good dozen or so very good AoS models. They got "last chance" warnings but it wasn't to a date it was until the mould broke so they went out of stock very fast.
I guess that could be part of it, but when a bunch of related or similar products disappear at the same time, it surely isn't just about moulds wearing down?
Why? Their mould certainly isn't tiny thing used to cast one bit, they use big spinning machines so it would actually make sense to have dozens of bits on one big container. If anything, I'd say bunch of things about the same age going away at once is a pretty good proof it was just the mould, if that was planned range cut they would start with worst selling stuff, not deleted random groups often including things that were in demand.
Overread wrote: Sadly the way FW often puts things out of production is to wait until the mould breaks and then just not renew it. So its not a case of "X casts and its done" but more a case of waiting till it breaks and then reviewing if they want to make another.
It's a very annoying thing, heck around christmas they dropped a good dozen or so very good AoS models. They got "last chance" warnings but it wasn't to a date it was until the mould broke so they went out of stock very fast.
I guess that could be part of it, but when a bunch of related or similar products disappear at the same time, it surely isn't just about moulds wearing down?
Why? Their mould certainly isn't tiny thing used to cast one bit, they use big spinning machines so it would actually make sense to have dozens of bits on one big container. If anything, I'd say bunch of things about the same age going away at once is a pretty good proof it was just the mould, if that was planned range cut they would start with worst selling stuff, not deleted random groups often including things that were in demand.
I very much doubt that all those WHFB/AoS monsters they dropped late last year were all on the same mould, or all their moulds wore down on the same day, and they all sold equally well leading them to disappear in the same period of time.
In some cases, they might cut a range when one kit within it starts to require a new mould or so, but long-term plans for a range (or lack thereof) are probably more influential. And the continued production of whole sections of their product line is quite clearly not just no priority, but not something they desire to do at all. Which is fine, but it'd be nice if they could let their customers know, because in many of these cases it doesn't seem to be a sudden discovery. (Although at this stage, if you want, say, one of the few remaining FWWHFB/AoS figures or something from other abandoned lines, it's probably just a good idea to assume they'll go, and pick them up sooner rather than later.)
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: In some cases, they might cut a range when one kit within it starts to require a new mould or so, but long-term plans for a range (or lack thereof) are probably more influential. And the continued production of whole sections of their product line is quite clearly not just no priority, but not something they desire to do at all. Which is fine, but it'd be nice if they could let their customers know, because in many of these cases it doesn't seem to be a sudden discovery. (Although at this stage, if you want, say, one of the few remaining FWWHFB/AoS figures or something from other abandoned lines, it's probably just a good idea to assume they'll go, and pick them up sooner rather than later.)
Indeed. I think it's safe to say that 40K and possibly AoS models will be retired in time as stock runs down. Certain exceptions (superheavies for example) will remain where, as speculated elsewhere, those particular lines will be moved to the main GW website under the Warhammer Forge banner. For example, one of the Necron Tomb Stalker models has now gone to Sold Out. Expect others to vanish as stock runs down and existing moulds wear out.
I'd be great if FW/GW did more casualty bits. The skulls box is nice for its variety of fleshless heads. But some Xenos carcasses, bits of damaged warmachines.
Good luck trying to get your hands on the old Vostroyan casualties for a reasonable price!
Once again, I think the problem with this model is once again the paint job. No where near the quality you'd expect.
I'd be interested to know how they got the bone colour they used for the armour though. I like that.
Snrub wrote: I'd be great if FW/GW did more casualty bits. The skulls box is nice for its variety of fleshless heads. But some Xenos carcasses, bits of damaged warmachines.
Good luck trying to get your hands on the old Vostroyan casualties for a reasonable price!
[u]
Once again, I think the problem with this model is once again the paint job. No where near the quality you'd expect.
Yup, I'm sure itll look great when untouched by the worlds best(cough, cough) painting team!
Racerguy180 wrote: Yup, I'm sure itll look great when untouched by the worlds best(cough, cough) painting team!
To the best of my knowledge it's not the 'Eavy Metal team that does FW's paint jobs. I think it's just one of the FW guys who paints them.
They are admittedly, not bad paint jobs. They're just not up to scratch with the 'Eavy Metal work and they're certainly not the quality you'd expect GW to use given some of the talent they do have available.
If they actually got the 'Eavy Metal team to paint both GW/FW, there'd be no issue.
Tbh a lot of the official GW jobs aren't all that flash when you scrutinise them, this isn't far off that quality. Some of the edge highlights are bit off, but nothing drastic. The main difference is not going so high contrast because that's not the HH style.
The features on the oni mask look a bit too big and squat in relation to the rest of the model.
Qin Xa is up for preorder now. Seeing the 360 I think the pose works, better than I thought it would from the photo. I rather like him. Details look good and I like the helmet a lot. My one gripe is the swords are quite thick for their length (and the price, but FW gonna FW).
ImAGeek wrote: They’re already present on the Ebon Keshig models, so he’s consistent with the models, if not so much the fluff.
Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Considering the amount of relatively obscure Mongolian references throughout the scars novels and the black book, I would imagine it’s more a stylistic choice than a laziness thing. I don’t mind it myself, they aren’t (or shouldn’t be) 1:1 Space Mongols, they’re their own culture heavily inspired by Mongols. And it’s not like the Mongols didn’t assimilate parts of a lot of other cultures as their empire grew anyway.
That said, I understand why someone wouldn’t like it.
ImAGeek wrote: They’re already present on the Ebon Keshig models, so he’s consistent with the models, if not so much the fluff.
Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Considering the amount of relatively obscure Mongolian references throughout the scars novels and the black book, I would imagine it’s more a stylistic choice than a laziness thing. I don’t mind it myself, they aren’t (or shouldn’t be) 1:1 Space Mongols, they’re their own culture heavily inspired by Mongols. And it’s not like the Mongols didn’t assimilate parts of a lot of other cultures as their empire grew anyway.
That said, I understand why someone wouldn’t like it.
I understand that. Also, I don't really believe that the writers and the minis designers talk much, so I don't really think it has much to do with it.
But even taking into account cultural assimilation and the like, well... japanese armor makes every bit as much sense there as a french sallet would (less, historically speaking for exactly the reasons you stated). Exactly equally out of context. But of course, it's japanese, so it's asian, so let's put it on the asian chapter.
ImAGeek wrote: They’re already present on the Ebon Keshig models, so he’s consistent with the models, if not so much the fluff.
Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Considering the amount of relatively obscure Mongolian references throughout the scars novels and the black book, I would imagine it’s more a stylistic choice than a laziness thing. I don’t mind it myself, they aren’t (or shouldn’t be) 1:1 Space Mongols, they’re their own culture heavily inspired by Mongols. And it’s not like the Mongols didn’t assimilate parts of a lot of other cultures as their empire grew anyway.
That said, I understand why someone wouldn’t like it.
I understand that. Also, I don't really believe that the writers and the minis designers talk much, so I don't really think it has much to do with it.
But even taking into account cultural assimilation and the like, well... japanese armor makes every bit as much sense there as a french sallet would (less, historically speaking for exactly the reasons you stated). Exactly equally out of context. But of course, it's japanese, so it's asian, so let's put it on the asian chapter.
What's wrong with that exactly? Chogoris was settled by people drawn from all over modern day Asia so having one of the Chogorian empire the Khan conquered be stylistically Japanese would make sense. Then you'd have WS drawn from these populations.
I did look up Mongolian armour and found examples of similar kinds of leg coverings, for what it’s worth, but I can’t vouch for the historical accuracy - they seem to be from modern recreations.
JSG wrote: What's wrong with that exactly? Chogoris was settled by people drawn from all over modern day Asia so having one of the Chogorian empire the Khan conquered be stylistically Japanese would make sense. Then you'd have WS drawn from these populations.
Well, for one, japanese styled stuff doesn't really work well with a horse nomadic people for a number of reasons, and japanese styled armor needed a fair more maintenance than the ones the mongols actually tended to use. So, you know, that's one.
But it's mainly the fact that here in the west we tend to equate "asian" and "japanese" aesthetics a lot of the time. And here, whit a culture that's always been stated as "Mongols in Space"? Japan, again. Weee, what a surprise.
It simply feels lazy.
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ImAGeek wrote: I did look up Mongolian armour and found examples of similar kinds of leg coverings, for what it’s worth, but I can’t vouch for the historical accuracy - they seem to be from modern recreations.
Hm... that feels... different xD. The kind of armor I'm familiar with is this:
Source: Denver Museum of Science and Nature's "Genghis Khan and the Mongolian Empire" exhibit.
Anyways, and not to derail it any longer, it's just that I don't think that it fit and personally I think it would have looked better with some other inspirations. I do like the helmet and the mini is cool otherwise.
JSG wrote: What's wrong with that exactly? Chogoris was settled by people drawn from all over modern day Asia so having one of the Chogorian empire the Khan conquered be stylistically Japanese would make sense. Then you'd have WS drawn from these populations.
Well, for one, japanese styled stuff doesn't really work well with a horse nomadic people for a number of reasons, and japanese styled armor needed a fair more maintenance than the ones the mongols actually tended to use. So, you know, that's one.
The WS don't ride horses though, the Talasar did. There where plenty of Asian descended empires on Chogoris that weren't nomadic horsemen.
JSG wrote: What's wrong with that exactly? Chogoris was settled by people drawn from all over modern day Asia so having one of the Chogorian empire the Khan conquered be stylistically Japanese would make sense. Then you'd have WS drawn from these populations.
Well, for one, japanese styled stuff doesn't really work well with a horse nomadic people for a number of reasons, and japanese styled armor needed a fair more maintenance than the ones the mongols actually tended to use. So, you know, that's one.
The WS don't ride horses though, the Talasar did. There where plenty of Asian descended empires on Chogoris that weren't nomadic horsemen.
Right, but...
"It is from the savage horse nomads of Chogoris that the White Scars raise their neophytes, who are well-suited to the White Scars' highly mobile way of war".
One would assume their cultural tropes would come from them.
Yeah... while I like the Japanese look well enough, it is getting into that orientalist "all East Asian cultures are kind of interchangeable" aesthetic that ignores, along with differences, why certain structures arose.
We might be seeing the consequences of the Flanderization of the White Scars here. They were always intended to be inspired by various Asian cultures instead of just Mongols In Space, and that was less about the assumption that most of East Asia is culturally homogeneous enough to be interchangeable, and more that the original philosophy of designing Space Marines was to draw from multiple modern/historical sources of influence (such as Space Wolves originally being a mix of vikings and Celts despite the lack of any real similarities between the two beyond the stereotype of hairy wildmen).
Maybe I'm giving Forge World too much benefit of the doubt, and it could be that original intent is highly flawed anyway, or that it has been too long to go back, but Qin Xa being the leader of a unit named after the Mongolian imperial guard while wielding Chinese swords and wearing Japanese-styled armour with a Tibetan-inspired mask doesn't sound like a mistake to me.
Yeah, I'm of the same opinion of Tim the Biovore. Just copypasting a real world culture is the lazy way of doing a fictional faction/race.
A proper autor takes inspiration from a ton of sources, and you don't need to have they all come from a similar cultural background.
Tau, for example, have a political system based around Plato's Republic with a ton of Confucianism throw in the mix, and a japanese mech aesthetic mixed with medieval ashigaru.
Other than that I think the model is fine, and probably what the Ebon Keshig should have looked like.
..wait, those are supposed to look like daos? they look more like oversized machetes with pointier ends, to me.
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Tim the Biovore wrote: We might be seeing the consequences of the Flanderization of the White Scars here. They were always intended to be inspired by various Asian cultures instead of just Mongols In Space, and that was less about the assumption that most of East Asia is culturally homogeneous enough to be interchangeable, and more that the original philosophy of designing Space Marines was to draw from multiple modern/historical sources of influence (such as Space Wolves originally being a mix of vikings and Celts despite the lack of any real similarities between the two beyond the stereotype of hairy wildmen).
Maybe I'm giving Forge World too much benefit of the doubt, and it could be that original intent is highly flawed anyway, or that it has been too long to go back, but Qin Xa being the leader of a unit named after the Mongolian imperial guard while wielding Chinese swords and wearing Japanese-styled armour with a Tibetan-inspired mask doesn't sound like a mistake to me.
The mask looks like a komainu mempo to me, actually, which again, is japanese (it's actually a fairly common theme). The name's certanly chinese-like, but then again, as the mongols ruled China (and were absorbed culturally by them afterwards) didn't feel really off. As to the weapons... well, what I said above ^^
Actually, what would you think is kinda-sorta mongolian in that mini? I'm kind of drawing a blank, here.
How you going to make it noticeably Mongolian? A composite bow and a horse? Please no, we don't need more cyber wolves. A bit of fur trim is about as Mongolian as I'd want. I'm of the opinion that a mash up of Eastern inspired aesthetic is absolutely more desirable than "There should be more silk on that model if we're supposed to believe its inspiration is derived from the Mongols".
JWBS wrote: How you going to make it noticeably Mongolian? A composite bow and a horse? Please no, we don't need more cyber wolves. A bit of fur trim is about as Mongolian as I'd want. I'm of the opinion that a mash up of Eastern inspired aesthetic is absolutely more desirable than "There should be more silk on that model if we're supposed to believe its inspiration is derived from the Mongols".
Well, instead of sode and haidate, they could have given it lamellar armor shoulders and skirt. That would have changed significantly the look, and it would have certainly looked much more "mongol"
For example, maybe something like this:
The thing is, that character doesn't look like much of a "mash of eastern inspired aesthetics". It looks like a terminator with a japanese mask, japanese shoulder armor, japanese thighs armor and kinda stupid looking swords.
He does look cool except for the swords IMHO, but it's not much of a mashup of inspirations. I would actually have liked it a lot to see him with (for example) a pair of vietnamese guoms (cavalry sabres) and maybe a torso area reminiscent of Jin dinasty chinese heavy armor:
Albertorius wrote: Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Strikes me as them not wanting to make them one particular Asian cultural style, and instead mix'n'match elements that they like the look of to make their own thing... kinda like how 40K has always worked.
Albertorius wrote: Actually, what would you think is kinda-sorta mongolian in that mini? I'm kind of drawing a blank, here.
Other than depicting a character with the title Master of the Keshig, there's nothing explicitly Mongolian about the model itself. My point about the Flanderization is the expectation it has created, resulting in people seeing this White Scars miniature that is distinctly Japanese themed, armed with (what are supposed to be, at least) daos, and thinking there must have been a mistake in the design process. White Scars are not, and should not be, exclusively inspired by Mongolian aesthetics.
Maybe the real problem is that it's just not all that great a sculpt. It's very.... Modern Forge World. Clunky execution of a decent design. Should have at least given him the dragon mask he's supposed to wear.
As a long time WS fan i love the model, the Paint job seems off, to much War tones with not enough to balance it out(Especially with the base) The Armor being more brownish white makes it look Iffy with the red and the blades look meh too. painted atleast
Albertorius wrote: Kinda rubs me the wrong way, to be completely honest. It reeks of not doing the proper research and simply going "asian? ah, samurai". Lazy and wrong.
Strikes me as them not wanting to make them one particular Asian cultural style, and instead mix'n'match elements that they like the look of to make their own thing... kinda like how 40K has always worked.
My problem with it is not that it's a different asian culture style (I mean, a bit... cultures develop organically and have reasons to look like they do: mishmashing stuff that doesn't belong can look very off): it's that, as is always done in most western media, they have gone for the "asia == japan" equivalency, where "asia" contains scads of different cultures that they could have drawn inspiration from.
I mean, I love me some japanese aesthetics (hell, I've been the translator of L5R for 15 years now, and I've also recently translated Tenra Bansho Zero, ffs), but it's easy mode by now, and the default in most media when they try to convene "asian". And there's so much more there.
Anyways, I think that's more than enough. It is a decent mini.
This is the final episode of The Road to Thramas, but don’t worry – we’re going out with a bang! We’re taking a peek inside The Horus Heresy – Book 9: Crusade, looking at Lion El’Jonson and Konrad Curze (the stars of the book), and giving some free downloadable rules for all of you Dark Angels fans.
Crusade We’ve already shown you some of the awesome things that are inside the new Horus Heresy campaign book, but we’ve only scratched the surface. Take a look at the full contents…
As you can see, it’s absolutely packed with Age of Darkness goodness. Along with a host of new rules and in-depth background for the Dark Angels and Night Lords Legions, it includes missions that let you recreate the Thramas campaign. It also contains new units that can be taken by any Space Marines Legion, and additions to the forces of the Solar Auxilia and Imperialis Militia and Cults.
Lion El’Jonson
The majestic Primarch of the Dark Angels Legion makes his Horus Heresy debut in this campaign book. Even though we’ve already shown off the model, we can’t resist showing you again because it’s just so good.
As we’ve come to expect from these demi-gods of war, the Lion is an absolute beast on the battlefield, able to bend the course of events to his will in order to claim victory. He even comes with a choice of weapon so that you can decide how you want to cut through Traitors.
Both options are incredible, but we can’t help but love the Wolf Blade. Not only is it brutal for carving through larger units, but it’ll also make all of your Space Wolves-playing friends even more jealous of your forces.*
Konrad Curze
Opposing the Lion is Konrad Curze, the Night Haunter. Like his brothers, the Primarch of the Night Lords Legion is an epic warrior, able to easily slice through Loyalist troops with his unique pair of lightning claws. We’ve already seen what Curze is capable of – his rules were first published in The Horus Heresy – Book 2: Massacre, but they’re included again in Crusade for easy reference. If you’re yet to face him on the battlefield, make sure that you watch out for the insidious terror tactics that he uses on his enemies – it’s not for nothing that he’s known as the King of Terrors.
Even the noble Dark Angels will struggle to stand against such a formidable force of nature. Fortunately, they’re getting some early reinforcements.
Farith Redloss and Holguin As a thank you for joining us on the Road to Thramas over the last few months, we’re going to share some exclusive rules for the Dark Angels with you. Farith Redloss is a Master of the Dreadwing and has an unparalleled knowledge of all of the weaponry in the First Legion’s arsenal. Before battle, he can choose between three different ranged weapons to wield alongside his power axe. If you plan on getting up close and personal, choose the magaron pattern atomantic pulse pistol.
Holguin meanwhile, was one of the few Terran-born warriors to claim a place in the Council of Masters. This Master of the Deathwing has access to a number of the Legion’s venerable relics, including the Viridian Blade.
Both of these Masters of the Deathwing are excellent choices for your army and can help the Lion overcome the Night Haunter in the bitter battles of the Thramas campaign.
The Horus Heresy – Book 9: Crusade and the fantastic new Lion El’Jonson model will both be available to pre-order next month. While this may be the last in the Road to Thramas series, we’ll hopefully be bringing you similar previews of upcoming Horus Heresy campaign books. In the meantime, keep an eye on the Horus Heresy Facebook page for the latest news from the 31st Millennium.
Much obliged for the heads up! I had been scouring the internets desperately looking for any source of umbra bolters, they couldn't have reappeared at a better time <3
The umbra bolters are on preorder now, they will ship on the 28th of August. I have a feeling these will sell like hotcakes!
zedmeister wrote: That’s surprising. Umbra bolter relaunch. They went LCTB a couple of years ago
Musta been a failing mould or something. If anything, I think Rogue Trader era stuff is just getting more in demand year after year, so I'd expect to see Mk VI marines and umbra bolters to be something that FW is going to offer always, along with the retro Rhino, Land Raider and Land Speeder.
zedmeister wrote: That’s surprising. Umbra bolter relaunch. They went LCTB a couple of years ago
Musta been a failing mould or something. If anything, I think Rogue Trader era stuff is just getting more in demand year after year, so I'd expect to see Mk VI marines and umbra bolters to be something that FW is going to offer always, along with the retro Rhino, Land Raider and Land Speeder.
It wouldn't surprise me if FW move to just producing 'alternative' or 'variant' models - things that don't require their own rules.
New terminators look great, but it’s more of the same.
They will likely be over priced for shooting or combat units and average in both sadly.
Likely going to be chainglaives, so AP3 sadly.
The Volkite is nice, but a support or heavy squad does more for less.
They need to either focus on one or the other, multi role units don’t do much.
Only saving grace could be options or chain/fist on them.
The blood angels terminators are a complete mess with situational rules that do nothing for them until it’s too late and poor upgrades. .
Hoping these are better.
Is this the official Forgeworld thread now, just renamed? I just went to their website for the first time in a while and it was requiring me to do one of those stupid captcha things (like click all the images with a bicycle in them) to prove I'm a human just to look at the website. Not to buy something or send them a question but just to look at the forgeworld.co.uk main front page. Is anyone else getting that and/or is it a new thing? Or is that a result of my ad blockers/antitracking browser extensions?
warboss wrote: Is this the official Forgeworld thread now, just renamed? I just went to their website for the first time in a while and it was requiring me to do one of those stupid captcha things (like click all the images with a bicycle in them) to prove I'm a human just to look at the website. Not to buy something or send them a question but just to look at the forgeworld.co.uk main front page. Is anyone else getting that and/or is it a new thing? Or is that a result of my ad blockers/antitracking browser extensions?
Thanks. I was wondering if it was my recent browser update as I don't go there often. It's stupid to require it just to access the site to look at pretty pictures though I understand doing it for real interaction that requires a modicum of security.
So a 10" range culverin. Why oh why didn't they just leave it as a culverin?
Oh and a Mk VI Night Lord. So much for it being a rare pattern of armour, now everyone has it! You'd have thought that everyone would be in Mk V by now...
Every Legion field tested Mk6, but only the Raven Guard (and Alpha Legion) deployed on mass with it. So of course the NL's have some, and showing artwork of that pattern in that colour scheme means nothing.
BroodSpawn wrote: Every Legion field tested Mk6, but only the Raven Guard (and Alpha Legion) deployed on mass with it. So of course the NL's have some, and showing artwork of that pattern in that colour scheme means nothing.
Yeah - we're now at the point where every Legion used every version, but some had their preferences or more supplies than others. Indomitus Terminator Armor should be the most common, as Cataphractii was being phased out and Tartaros was just introduced but only the Iron Hands Gorgons are wearing it (and even that's a variant).
BroodSpawn wrote: Every Legion field tested Mk6, but only the Raven Guard (and Alpha Legion) deployed on mass with it. So of course the NL's have some, and showing artwork of that pattern in that colour scheme means nothing.
Raven Guard were the only Legion who were equiped Mk VI. Alpha Legion of course got a copy. So, I suppose they could have shared the wealth! it would be nice to see Mk V appearing a lot more. Especially considering it's called "Heresy" armour as well.
I do wonder if they're prepairing for a starter set with Mk VI armour?
BroodSpawn wrote: Every Legion field tested Mk6, but only the Raven Guard (and Alpha Legion) deployed on mass with it. So of course the NL's have some, and showing artwork of that pattern in that colour scheme means nothing.
Raven Guard were the only Legion who were equiped Mk VI. Alpha Legion of course got a copy. So, I suppose they could have shared the wealth! it would be nice to see Mk V appearing a lot more. Especially considering it's called "Heresy" armour as well.
I do wonder if they're preparing for a starter set with Mk VI armour?
The Iron Warriors and Salamanders were the first to field test MKVI, they both didn't take to it due to it's reduced plating compared to MKII/MKIII. Pretty much every legion maintains some MKVI from the armor's field testing days. Then the RG and AL got their hands on it in full production. Night Lords steal everything too so no reason they cant have a handful of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, every Terminator unit in 30k should be 2 wounds. Legion Terminators should also have access to the Veteran Tactics special rule. There's really no reason to take them over Veteran Tactical squads, which can do everything a Terminator squad can for far less points.
Is it just me or does it really seem like Night Lords and Dark Angel rules were written by two different people who did not talk to each other in the process, as Dark Angels seem to be better in every-single-whatever there is-way.
CragHack wrote: Is it just me or does it really seem like Night Lords and Dark Angel rules were written by two different people who did not talk to each other in the process, as Dark Angels seem to be better in every-single-whatever there is-way.
They quite possibly were, the Night Lords rules are from Book 2, slightly tweaked. I don’t know if the rules writing team has changed much since 2013 but it wouldn’t surprise me if it had.
Oh baby I need some dice. I've held off on having some custom made for my Iron Hands on the slim chance GW would make some for the new codex this fall, but it looks like FW has my back.
I may get some death guard as well! I don't play WE, nor do I really have a desire to play WE, but those dice look positively delicious.
I gave up on WE dice returning a long time ago. Picked up a set of Chessex Astral Blue Gemini dice instead. No legion symbol, but now I don't feel a big need to pick up the FW variety. They all look nice though.
gorgon wrote: I gave up on WE dice returning a long time ago. Picked up a set of Chessex Astral Blue Gemini dice instead. No legion symbol, but now I don't feel a big need to pick up the FW variety. They all look nice though.
Spoiler:
These fit really well, I wouldn't bother either if I were you. These Word Bearer dice on the other hand... I wonder how long these will stay around as I'm not currently planning any purchases.
gorgon wrote: I gave up on WE dice returning a long time ago. Picked up a set of Chessex Astral Blue Gemini dice instead. No legion symbol, but now I don't feel a big need to pick up the FW variety. They all look nice though.
Spoiler:
These fit really well, I wouldn't bother either if I were you. These Word Bearer dice on the other hand... I wonder how long these will stay around as I'm not currently planning any purchases.
FW have said on FB that these are all going to be range items and will be around for the foreseeable future
YES! I've been kicking myself for a while for not getting those sweet Night Lords dice. Hopefully this is a sign that some of the other stuff that's disappeared in the last few years will be returning. I need a second Land Raider Achilles. With Legion doors!
The dice are cool, yet I'm apprehensive. I feel like these are most likely limited, and will sell out instantly so scalpers can sell them at 5x the price on ebay. If I can only get like one set of dice for each of the 5 Legions I play before they sell out, I may as well order some custom Chessex dice that are the colors I actually prefer.
I'm so in for 2 sets of Iron Warrior dice and then at least one set of DA dice.
Also gonna grab Book IX. I haven't had a book focus really well on one of my favorite two legions till now (DA & IW). So at least this hits one of them.
Those dice are pretty cool. If they're still around when I finally buy the Mordor Orks I'll certainly grab some. Unlike some GW dice they also look like you can actually see what you rolled.
Ashaar wrote: I wonder if it was intentional that the Aquila on the EC dice isn't central. It looks just wrong enough to put me off them.
I expect it's because the faces are actually circles, and the tips of the wings are pretty much at the widest point of the circle. If they wanted to center the body of the aquila, they'd have to shrink the size of it.
I'm so pissed my dice still haven't shipped. Spent like 700 euros on a fething order and it still says it's going to ship after 2 days. As an insult, today I received notification that the Whirlwind Scorpius is back in stock. Guess what, it has been in stock the whole week since I ordered it on Monday.
Aurox is nice. Gives me hope we might someday see ROB tiles return as well. On the other hand, FWs PR is at it's finest - just imagine, how many angry people there were when they took it out in the first place. And all they needed was to say "relax, it will 100% be back, we just can't tell when".
"Horus Heresy Book 9 – Crusade" overview from Garro on FB:
CRUSADE OVERVIEW PART ONE: NIGHT LORDS
Spoiler:
changes and additions, are viewed from their last printed version (red book)
a Talent for murder has been adjusted to be any "non-vehicle units" with monstrous creatures counting as 5 minis
new legion exclusive weapon that can replace any power weapon for an upgrade fee, independent characters only, the Headman's axe, X2 str AP3 melee, two-handed, rending
Terror assault rite of war
-cover of darkness turn one is now automatic, turn two is 3+
-raptor squads are also now compulsory troops choices, in addition to terror squads
Horror cult rite of war not present, three new ones in book
swift blade rite of war
-must take three HQ choices, gains additional two slots (total five)
-all HQs count as warlords, gains crusader and hatred (loyalists) instead of a trait, ALL warlords must be killed/removed to count as slaying the warlord
-all HQ choices must take a marine bike (regular)
-Hussar squadrons are compulsory troops, outrider squads non-compulsory troops.
-NL units in this rite, add +2 to their number went counting for 'talent of murder' rule.
-must take additional troops choice
-'tank' type vehicles must have the 'fast' type as well
-can't take any 'must be warlord' characters
-can't take 'heavy', 'immobile' units, nor fortification, or allied detachments, traitor only
the cross of bones rite of war
-for each non-compulsory HQ choice, +1 elites choice
-independent characters that aren't in a unit with another get +1 attack
-slay the warlord is worth an extra victory point if the enemy warlord is killed in melee by an independent character
-must take additional troops choice, can't have Curze
-all units must consolidate the full distance towards nearest enemy unit in LOS The Bloodied Gaunlet
-all compulsory choices gain Zealot, but must start the game on the board, don't confer victory points for killing
-if you've drawn or lost, but all your compulsory choices have been wiped out, you get D3 victory points
-units entering play from turn 3 on wards get outflank
-must take +2 compulsory elites choices, must be infantry, and not in terminator armour of any kind
-compulsory choices can't hold or contest objectives, nor can they take dedicated transports, and the compulsory HQ choice can't be the warlord
-all non-compulsory choices must begin the game in reserves
TERROR SQUADS
-additional models are down 3pts
-bolters now free
-whole unit can take rotor cannons, half price as well
-flamer is still one per squad
-whole squad can take melta bombs (all or nothing)
-headsman's plasma pistol up 5pts
CONTEKAR TERMINATOR ELITE
-5-15 models
-'terminator armour' so could take either
-chainblade, heavy flamer, and ToJ by default
-implacable advance, chosen warriors
-Sevatar can take a squad instead of a command squad
-elites, but if Sevatar and curzes aren't in the army, a single unit of 10 or less models can be take as a HQ choice
-squad can take Teleport transponders
-replace flamer with volkite for price
-change chainblade for power claw X2str ap2, shred, unwieldy
RAPTOR SQUAD
-additional models down 5pts
-onslaught replaced with two new seperate rules, raptor squads can use their jump packs in both movement and charge phases, plus the unit basically gets a version of deflagrate on their melee attacks, (all taken at once after the whole unit has attacked).
-power weapons, chainglaives, and lightning claws all down 5pts
-plasma pistol down 5pts as well
-huntmaster can take a headsmans axe and TOJ
NAKRID THOLE new character
-praetor grade character
-artificer armour refractor field, volkite serpenta TOJ
-Thole can not be precision striked/shot, also on a +5 when he's slain, he doesn't confer VPs -flay wipe, rending ap4, wounded models drop to I1 until end of it's controlling players turn, can swap he's attacks for a single attack against all enemy models within 2"
-also has a mastercrafted paragon blade, with extra rule that gives an extra attack for models that have been wounded by the wipe.
SEVATAR
-Contekar terminators count for his MoTA rule
-he can also upgrade to artifcer armour and replace the MC chainglaive for a new weapon for a fee, new weapon is AP2
FLAYMASTER MAWDRYM LLANSAHAI
-unchanged
KHERON OPHION OF THE KYROPTERA
- unchanged
KONRAD CURZE
-unchanged
CRUSADE OVERVIEW PART TWO: DARK ANGELS LEGION RULES
Spoiler:
this part won't include units, that will be the next bit
-couple of new swords have been added to the 'mastery of the blade' rule
-Molecular acid shells are fleshbane now rather than poison (2+)
-covenant of death replaced with two new rules
-DA units can't claim any leadership buffs from non-DA units
-DA units can take additional upgrades from the Hexagrammaton or Hekatonystika.
THE HEXAGRAMMATON
-any character or independant character can be made into a 'scion of the Hexagrammton' for a cost, these give a special rule, most of which confer to units it joins (you can 'stack' these if you don't like having friends)
-stormwing allows snap shots on BS2
-deathwing allows the model to reroll a missed to hit roll during a challenge
-dreadwing allows unit to auto-pick 4" instead of rolling for differcult terrain, and reroll dangerous terrain tests
-ironwing units treat crew shaken, as crew stunned
-firewing gains 'hatred (characters)
-ravenwing may reroll run, fall back, and thrust distances
SCIONS OF THE HEKATONYSTIKA
independant characters can take one of several options for a price, unsure if a single IC take scion options from both or not.
- +1str to weapons against enemy units with av11
- +1 attack if they're charged
-roll two dice, taking the highest for deny the witch tests
-reroll 1's to hit while in a challenge with an enemy with WS5 or higher
-reroll 1's to wound against enemy with toughness 5 in combat, or any TWR if toughness 6 or higher
- +1 attack if they're in base contact with 2 or more enemy models
- reroll all to hit and wound rolls against psykers and daemons (all versions) as well as enemy units effected by Blessings
Eskaton Imperative rite of war
-destoryer and interemptor squads are compulsory troops
-enemy units with LOS to a scion of the dreadwing IC within 12" get -1ld
-all open terrain becomes differcult, may place three markers, all terrain within 6" becomes dangerous in addition to existing rules
-all units and characters with Scion of the dreadwing rule can take rad grenades, statis grenades, or swap a heavy weapon with a plasma incinerator
-compulsory troops and Warlord must have scion of the dreadwing
-enemy scores 1VP if they've got any units left in their own deployment zone, 3VP if its a scoring unit
-all infantry units and IC must start the game in transports
-can't take fortification or allied detachment
STEEL FIST RITE OF WAR -Predator squadrons are compulsory troops choices
-ironwing ICs give transports they're in a 6+ invuln, or +1 to an existing one
-non-terminator infantry units with ironwing, can take proteus or phobos land raiders as dedicated transports
-ironwing units in transports can reroll armour saves for damage done to them while in transport
-all infantry units must start the game in transports
-only a single bike/jetbike/flyer units can be taken (one of each)
-50% of the units in the army must be 'tank' type vehicles
-no fortification or allied detachments
STORM OF WAR RITE OF WAR -legion tactical and assault squads that are 20 man strong may take a legion centurion, that joins the squad permanently, may not take a consul upgrade nor be the warlord, doesn't take up a HQ choice
-praetors and centurions gain a form of IG orders, only effects the model, plus unit it has joined.
-all complusory troops and warlord must be stormwing
-tactical squads and assault squads can't have dedicated transports, and must make up 50% of units in the army (their centurions don't count)
-no fortification or allied detachments
THE UNBROKEN VOW RITE OF WAR -veteran tactical squads and legion terminator squads are compulsory troops
-deathwing ICs get +1 attack while within 12" of an objective
-deathwing units get a 6+FNP while within 6" of an objective, or +1 to an existing FNP. only one model needs to be within distance
-all Compulsory troops and Warlord must be deathwing
-no allied detachments
-place an objective marker in the center of the board, if the DA player doesn't control it at the end of the game, the enemy gets +1vp, +3vps if they control it
THE SEEKER'S ARROW RITE OF WAR -Jetbike sky hunters, and outrider squads become troops choices
-Ravenwing ICs can buy 'hit and run'
-ravenwing Units gain outflank, and arrive from reserves on 2+
-ravenwing units can add +2" to either run/turbo-boost, charge, or consolidation moves each game turn.
-only include vehicles with 'fast', 'skimmer', or 'flyer' types
-only include a single Heavy support squad
-all jetbike and bike units that aren't compulsory troops start in reserves
-no allied detachement or fortification
SERPENT'S BANE RITE OF WAR -Seeker squads and firewing enigmatus cadres are troops
-at the start of the game pick three enemy HQs, elites, or LOW choices, all Firewing units, gain +1 to wound or penetrate against these units.
-Firewing ICs gain +1 attack in combat against the picked units
-up to three firewing troops choices can be given infiltrate, if they deploy within 17" of a picked unit, they gain rage for the first two turns of the game.
-seekers and assault squads are compulsory troops and must be firewing as well as the warlord
-if any of the picked enemy units survive the game, the DA automatically loses, regardless of VPs -no fortification or allied detachments
next up is the DA units.
CRUSADE OVERVIEW PART THREE: DARK ANGELS UNITS
Spoiler:
i'm going to ignore the two units we've already got PDFs for as they won't have changed. which are the inner circle knights and interemptors.
DEATHWING COMPANIONS
- 5-10 models
- artificer armour, bolter, bolt pistol, grenades, sergeant has refractor field
- terranic greatsword or calibanite warblade
-automatically deathwing
-squad can take meltabombs
-replace sword with powerfist
- swap bolter for plasma pistol, combi-weapon, or the shield
-shield gives +4 against shooting, 5+ against melee, can boost the shields to give cover to friendly models in the unit without one, but the sheild models can't shoot or fight.
-can only be taken as a replacement command squad
-the IC that the squad is taken for must be attached and can't leave. they can't be precision shot/striked while part of the unit, and companions autopass any look out sir tests.
-the squad can upgrade into terminator armour (either), swapping the usual bundles of wargear. and gaining access to combi-bolters, thunderhammers and lightning claws. (keeping the calbanite warblade)
-regular companions can take a rhino or proteus as a dedicated transport, terminators can take phobos only.
FIREWING ENIGMATUS CABAL
-three man jump infantry WS5 W2 A3
-firewing, scout, hatred (characters)
-power armour, shroud bombs, needle pistols
-fancy jump pack, that gives a 5+ cover save, and denies overwatch if you're using it in the charge phase.
-fancy swords that are +1str and AP3, can overcharge to give rending and gets hot.
IRONWING EXCINDIO CLASS BATTLE-AUTOMATA
-absolute beast automata, single model
tortured remains of the men of iron, put into terran automata suits of dark age tech.
-two dreadnought close combat weapons, and two unique servo-arms, 5+ invuln, and always explodes. has the rampage and hatred everything rules.
-has two combi-bolters which can be upgraded into gravguns, irad clensers, or plasma repeaters
- may replace its DCCWs and servo arms with a range of unique guns, all look horrible.
-has all the usual automata rules
-has a rule called 'vengeful rage' each time it suffers a wound, roll a D6, on a '1' it goes native, and follows a basic set of rules for the REST of the game (attacking closest unit even if friendly etc).
-once it goes native DA units can attack it as if it was an enemy unit.
-friendly Techmarines can take a 'kill switch' which will auto-deal D6 'mortal wounds' to the automata, doesn't confer VPs if it dies this way.
CORSWAIN
WS7 W4 A4
-bolter, bolt pistol, grenades
-fancy armour gives 2+/4++ increases to 3++ in combat.
-the blade is +2str AP1 2handed, mastercrafted, and confers instant death while in a challenge.
-master of the legion, and deathwing, precision strikes
MARDUK SEDRAS
-plasma burner, 3 phosphex bombs, cataphractii armour that autopasses dangerous terrain
-master of the legion, dreadwing, may take an inner cicle cenobium as a command squad if he's the warlord
- UBER OP sword that was previewed in road to thramas
-at the start of the game, pick a single faction from the Allies table, that is present in the enemy army. all DA units within 6" of Sedras (including himself) gains preferred enemy against this faction.
LION EL'JOHNSON
stats etc already covered by road to thramas, so going to focus on special rules
-sires of the dark angels, allows DA units to roll extra dice for all morale tests, and use lowest combo
-the Lion and any DA squad he joins can auto-roll 8" for charges ignoring difficult and dangerous terrain or roll normally
-may take a squad of deathwing companions as part of his LOW choice
CRUSADE OVERVIEW PART FOUR: REGULAR UNITS
Spoiler:
the two big ones here are the new Legion Hussar squadron, and Sky Seeker squadrons.
HUSSAR SQUADRON
-5-10 biker squad
-chainsword, grenades, and bolt pistol
-standard bike with twin-linked bolter
-can replace TL bolter with a TL snub-rotor cannon (12" range salvo4/5)
-sergeant can swap pistol for plasma pistol or hand flamer, can swap chainsword for power weapon/fist, or lightning claw. he can also take melta bobs
-NON-COMPULSORY TROOPS CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LEGION JETBIKE SKY SEEKER SQUADRON
-3-10 Jetbike squad
-only 3+ armour and scout
-chainsword, bolt pistol, and grenades
-Orcale array on jetbikes, counts as augury scanner, and can basically 'markerlight' an enemy unit instead of shooting themselves, friendly units get +1 to hit an enemy unit that's been marked. doesn't stack
-the jetbike starts with a TL bolter but can be upgraded into a HEAVY rotor canon or a grenade launcher.
-sergeant can take same upgrades as hussar sergeant. note neither can take artificer armour.
-NON-COMPULSORY TROOPS CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE other new vehicles are just the existing PDFs put into print, with the Deradeo getting a reprint with it's additional weapons load outs that have came out since it's last print.
that's going to wrap up my Initial overview of Crusade. I'm not going to cover the new lore just yet, as it's going to time a while to read through it all and take it all in. I'll be keeping an eye on comments for questions and will try to answer them, but I won't be giving out points costs or full statlines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really want to have a look at that Battle-automata...
This book had me excited! I was ready to FINALLY buy a 30K book from Forgeworld, and build up small forces of Night Lords and Dark Angels to play 30K with...
godswildcard wrote: This book had me excited! I was ready to FINALLY buy a 30K book from Forgeworld, and build up small forces of Night Lords and Dark Angels to play 30K with...
...book is sold out in the US store. Hooray.
Going to guess that everyone preordered on the 4th as soon as it went up on the site. Hit the "email me" button to let them know you're interested! Hopefully they'll have multiple waves of the book so that everyone can get a copy. Good luck.
godswildcard wrote: This book had me excited! I was ready to FINALLY buy a 30K book from Forgeworld, and build up small forces of Night Lords and Dark Angels to play 30K with...
...book is sold out in the US store. Hooray.
Going to guess that everyone preordered on the 4th as soon as it went up on the site. Hit the "email me" button to let them know you're interested! Hopefully they'll have multiple waves of the book so that everyone can get a copy. Good luck.
Or they could ship some extras over from the remaining UK stock…
Prometheum5 wrote: And looks slightly taller? And doesn't have the same GW logo on the spine. That would drive me nuts in a lineup.
They like changing the format through a series. The Adeptus Titanicus books, of the 5 books, I think only 2 have the same combination of logos on the spine.
It's smaller and not even filled up with text, there's a photo floating around of pages that are 90% photo edited ships flying though clouds with tiny paragraphs at the top. I'm hesitating to buy because it seems like such a rip off compared to the other books. Maybe wait for the softback.
Irkjoe wrote: It's smaller and not even filled up with text, there's a photo floating around of pages that are 90% photo edited ships flying though clouds with tiny paragraphs at the top. I'm hesitating to buy because it seems like such a rip off compared to the other books. Maybe wait for the softback.
Not that it’s really a defence but there’s pages like that in others in the series too.
It was never realistic to expect a tiny team to knock out 300+ page coffee table books regularly for a decade or more.
Honestly, that's one reason I like the format of the AT books. Sure, more fluff would be nice. But those books are sustainable. They can develop two per year and avoid lulls of 12 months or more.
gorgon wrote: It was never realistic to expect a tiny team to knock out 300+ page coffee table books regularly for a decade or more.
Honestly, that's one reason I like the format of the AT books. Sure, more fluff would be nice. But those books are sustainable. They can develop two per year and avoid lulls of 12 months or more.
Right but they're still charging top dollar and as hbmc pointed out it's more than other books, they clearly still have expectations regardless of their own diminished output. "Hey boss, ya, only felt like doin 28 hours this week, no no, I still wanna be paid for 40 tho, I'm a special boy"
I agree with you on the AT books, but those are also proportionally affordable at around 40$ a pop. Those books also suffer in art department a bit tho, they feel a bit budget.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Irkjoe wrote: It's smaller and not even filled up with text, there's a photo floating around of pages that are 90% photo edited ships flying though clouds with tiny paragraphs at the top. I'm hesitating to buy because it seems like such a rip off compared to the other books. Maybe wait for the softback.
They've been deleting items left and right for months, but they can produce another Titan? Yeah, you'll sell a lot more of these things than Land Raider Achilles fw.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They've been deleting items left and right for months, but they can produce another Titan? Yeah, you'll sell a lot more of these things than Land Raider Achilles fw.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They've been deleting items left and right for months, but they can produce another Titan? Yeah, you'll sell a lot more of these things than Land Raider Achilles fw.
They remove things when the mould dies, and bring them back when it's replaced - the Aurox recently returned, for example. Also, I'm guessing the titan moulds are easier to do as it's a CAD sculpt so they can 3D print it, and given the age of the Achilles kits I'm guessing they have do be re-done from scratch.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They've been deleting items left and right for months, but they can produce another Titan? Yeah, you'll sell a lot more of these things than Land Raider Achilles fw.
Seeing gw sells most of lifetime sales of kit in matter of months it could very well be true if fw for some reason doesn't work differently.
Hopefully that Volcano cannon will get a separate release, rather than just being bundled with the Warbringer body. The Quake cannon was basically a separate kit (its own box and instructions) that just came bundled with the body, so the weapons are obviously designed to be sold separately, even comes with pre-cast holes for magnets on the ammo hoppers.
Will also be interested to see the back and what has replaced the ammo hoppers for this variant.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They've been deleting items left and right for months, but they can produce another Titan? Yeah, you'll sell a lot more of these things than Land Raider Achilles fw.
New Warbringer is now up, the Volcano cannon is not available separately, though sure it will be, even a lot of the product shots shows it separately. Do like the look of the power cells but still hoping for a big plasma weapon at some point, reckon that could look really good.
The new head does look absolutely identical apart from the face plate, even looks like the same Princeps, which is a shame, would have been nice to see a few more differences.
Imagine releasing a new HH book and then a bunch of Hobbit and Necromunda stuff, and then not either of the two units previewed sinc elike april, 3 weeks after release. Like Titans are sick dont get me wrong, but Deathwing and Contekar are literally made to be released alongside Crusade. So weird. Such a strange company.
JWBS wrote: They haven't released Sons of Behomat yet either and they were previewed ages ago. Something strange is going on. Something is up
Yes, it's a global pandemic and it is still in progress.
Games Workshop Head Office is still running a skeleton staf; managers are working from home, the factory floor has been completely compartmentalised in to individual booths and the entire site is a one-way system internally and externally. From what I understand, working at Lenton Lane is a complete ballache right now and we're about to enter the second large wave of Covid. I think we've had our golden summer with GW releases, and now it's back to being 'maybe maybe but not this week'.
JWBS wrote: They haven't released Sons of Behomat yet either and they were previewed ages ago. Something strange is going on. Something is up
Yes, it's a global pandemic and it is still in progress.
Games Workshop Head Office is still running a skeleton staf; managers are working from home, the factory floor has been completely compartmentalised in to individual booths and the entire site is a one-way system internally and externally. From what I understand, working at Lenton Lane is a complete ballache right now and we're about to enter the second large wave of Covid. I think we've had our golden summer with GW releases, and now it's back to being 'maybe maybe but not this week'.
GW will remain lagging as will many other firms, until Covid restrictions are fully lifted. Ergo when you can work side by side with other people without fear or having to soak yourself in disinfectant etc...
GW has honestly done really well too; they've not had stalled sales; they've had high product demand and whilst they can't quite keep up, they are pushing out new content at a regular pace. Heck they already paid back all their government loan money from the furlough payments and most firms have 10 years to pay that off.
GW isn't perfect, but right now they are doing really well in general. Even if we get a second lockdown and such I'm sure GW will ride it out well.
Yeah....Covid an all is a thing. Yet the Contekar and Deathwing are ready to go. They're actually just stalling for some reason. I dont understand why you wouldnt make releasing everything you have ready for Book 9 a priority within the first couple weeks post launch. Also, the new Warbringer Volcano cannon is a weapon swap, that you cant buy separately like LITERALLY EVERY OTHER TITAN WEAPON THEY SELL. So in order to get this new weapon people have been waiting on you gotta spend another $1,260 USD on another titan...
These are just stupid business tactics, they have nothing to do with Covid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also just noticed they got rid of the Warlord Lucius Pattern head. Why.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm ranting now, cant help it, but why are we on a limited time clock with everything FW releases? There are so many things I wanted to get for my Legions that have been removed its crazy. Transfer sheets that have disappeared for no reason. Upgrade kits that lasted only a year and a half on the site before being binned (Newer LR doors). Tanks like the Achilles Alpha (I planned on getting 3) just vanish. Don't even get me started on MKII.
I get FW isn't mainstream like GW, but these constant removals of things I want to purchase one day and just can't in my current financial state (especially considering they raised everything sitewide 20-40% two years ago for some reason) are doing nothing but driving me towards Dakka's dreaded R-word. I have access to all the MKII I need now, no thanks to FW.
I can't fully support a company that doesn't seem to care for it's community.
Crazyterran wrote: They didn’t release the Escher upgrades with the HoB either, so something is lagging down the line.
And while that may be covid-related, it's not like Necromunda's Forge World range support was remotely logical before all that. Some weapon packs were released shortly after the original Gang War books, others months later. Previewed models could take anywhere between weeks and many months to release. Whether there was a bottleneck in sculpting, casting or something else, it certainly wasn't smoothly organized in the past to begin with.
tneva82 wrote: The weapon not being available separately at first but bundled with other is 100% standard gw thing.
They’ve never actually made the deck gun for the Warbringer available separately.
That was understandable previously, as it was the only option. I think it's almost certain that the weapons will be switched to separate items in the not too distant future (probably with a bit of a price hike on the overall cost of weapon+body).
Nope, they have "Chain blades" opposed to Chaingalives which are the same thing but dont give +1 strength.. I don't understand this choice at all. +1 strength does not make this unit OP. Little nerfs like this are just annoying to the player base. And only the unit leader can take the Power Claw. Which is also pretty dumb.
I like the models, but the rules for contekar are kinda low tier minus the free force org slot.
If they could be taken as a command squad by anyone except Sevatar I might have been willing to take some, as is it's an absolute no on them. Which is just a shame as I love the models (and plan on trying to get my hands on some for conversion material).
Luckily night raptors now seem pretty ridiculous and pair nicely with the terror assault RoW.
Truly, whoever sculpted the DA range is a legend. Knocking units out of the park time and again. So far the only DA unit I haven't been super enthusiastic about are Knights Cenobium. Just a tad too busy for my tastes.
Has there been any word on whether models for the Enigmatus Cabal or Exicndio battle-automata are on their way?
Snrub wrote: Truly, whoever sculpted the DA range is a legend. Knocking units out of the park time and again. So far the only DA unit I haven't been super enthusiastic about are Knights Cenobium. Just a tad too busy for my tastes.
Has there been any word on whether models for the Enigmatus Cabal or Exicndio battle-automata are on their way?
It was Fil Dunn (former eavy metal painter and now fw designer) who sculpted all of the new squads for the DA. He did the Lions scenic base with the chopped up Nightlords as well. The 2 Praetors, the Contemptor and the Leviathan were done by Alexandre Dumilliard
Nicely sculpted models but that color scheme... no thanks. It reminds me of my old high school friend's first car that was a fixerupper to put it mildly. He had multiple stripped/bondo'ed and junk yard replaced panels of different colors that he couldn't afford to paint consistently even if he did finish the work (which he never did). I'm not sure that's the look the 1st Legion is going for though.
Isn't that a weird detail: You can see the Marine's hand inside the power fist.
Also one of the frames of the 360 is a different model, which is amusing.
CragHack wrote: 75 euros for 5 models. Jesus fething christ :O AND, they are 10 euros more expensive than I would buy them in £...
Forge World's international prices are completely slowed. Why Australia pays AUD$30 more for that kit when it's being made and shipped from the same factory, directly to me, makes zero sense.
It's an odd price - £18 more than the Interemptor Squad and £3 less than the Inner Circle Knight Terminators. The Blood Angels special units are either £50 (Angel's Tears) or £55 (Dawnbreakers) and they're jump infantry.
HBMC, there was a powerfist with this the hand visible inside in the now oop marine character upgrade set from FW. IIRC, the Huron model from FW has it as well in his claw fist
H.B.M.C. wrote: Isn't that a weird detail: You can see the Marine's hand inside the power fist.
There is precidence for that - a while ago, Forgeworld sold the Marine Characters Upgrade pack - one of which was a powerfist with the hand clearly visible.
The Elite shock troops of the Night Lords will be up for pre-order for fans of the Horus Heresy next Friday. These Contekar Terminators are butchers and murderers of a high order and will make light work of any who stand in their way.
Looking at their loadout I’m expecting them to follow the trend of typically poor legion terminators.
They either need to be pure combat, fire support or suppression.
Mixing the roles just makes them worse.
Guessing it’s going to be an AP3 chainglaive and volkites/heavy flamers.
So CC weapons that can’t deal with elite troops and ranged weapons that focus on just about scratching troops.
The reason salamander and iron warriors terminators are so highly rated is because they focus on 1 roles and do it insanely well.
They also have gear/rules to back it up.
BA sadly also got the same treatment with their “elite” terminators that really don’t do anything well.
Jackal90 wrote: Looking at their loadout I’m expecting them to follow the trend of typically poor legion terminators.
They either need to be pure combat, fire support or suppression.
Mixing the roles just makes them worse.
Guessing it’s going to be an AP3 chainglaive and volkites/heavy flamers.
So CC weapons that can’t deal with elite troops and ranged weapons that focus on just about scratching troops.
The reason salamander and iron warriors terminators are so highly rated is because they focus on 1 roles and do it insanely well.
They also have gear/rules to back it up.
BA sadly also got the same treatment with their “elite” terminators that really don’t do anything well.
Explains why I haven’t seen the rules then.
I won’t buy FW books that I don’t get any use from.
Just had a hunt through some reviews of them and yea, they really aren’t good.
Should have either been a new AP2 type CC weapon or a decent ranged option for them.
Hell, even giving them the option to make a teleport move mid game or something fluffy would have gone a long way.
During the Horus Heresy, the Contekar were the Night Lords’ premier shock troops, adept at sowing panic and dismay among their enemies. With their new models coming out soon, we’re taking a look at the lore of these merciless killers.
Terminator terror Haughty and aloof, the Contekar were made up of recruits from Nostramo’s ruling elite.* Long before the Night Lords turned Traitor, they carried this arrogance as a badge of honour and would only fight alongside those they deemed worthy. And they deemed very few to be worthy.
With friends like these The Contekar were often dispatched to wrest command from lesser Night Lords leaders whom their commanders considered unfit to prosecute the Legion’s objectives. Anyone who’s ever had their boss ask “can I have a quick word?” knows that icy chill that goes up the backbone. Now imagine it was five midnight-clad Terminators asking…
Weapons of war Each member of a Contekar unit typically carries a heavy flamer into battle so they can easily burn enemy armies, infrastructure, and agriculture to little more than ash. They also use a Nostraman chainblade, to cut down any that escape their fiery wrath, or occasionally an Escaton power claw. This brutal weapon combines the energy field and mass acceleration of a power fist with the shredding talons of a lightning claw, making it perfect for anyone who can’t choose between their two favourite weapons.
If you’re not already cowering and wailing in abject fear, you may be wondering how to add the Contekar Terminators to your Night Lords Legion. If that’s the case, we’ve got you covered with the rules you need to lead these menacing beasts into battle.
The new Contekar Terminator Elite models will be available to pre-order on Friday. In the meantime, grab a Night Lords Legion Praetor so that they have someone to accompany into battle.
For whatever reason, FW is really bad at designing proper "Legion" terminator units. Just to start off with, I think any non-basic terminator should have 2W right off the bat, and then go from there.
What's the point, honestly? Ld9 doesn't change a thing, because they will get stomped by pretty much any other snowflake terminator unit.
And they will also chew through any power armor unit, where they won't need their LD as well.
I wonder, how many people are actually behind the Heresy rules atm? 1?
Oh, and if anyone has the info of what % of GWs revenue comes from Forge World - do share
I thought the BA terminators has it bad with the hand they got dealt, these poor guys were hung out to dry.
Poor profile and unsure what they want to do as a role.
Chapter terminators ideally need 2 wounds base.
They then need to be dedicated to either shooting or combat.
From there, the rules need to backup that role.
CC based unit.
Massively heavy on points but low on stats.
AP3 blades with AP2 on the sgt.
their rules basically make them get stronger as they become outnumbered.
Problem is, by the point it becomes useful, they are already dead or so far gone they can’t do anything.
Part of a fast moving army so needs a transport to get about reliably.
For their elite terminators they are a joke.
Better off taking dawnbreakers for less points, faster and far harder hitting.
I wonder, how many people are actually behind the Heresy rules atm? 1?
Apparently it was Anuj and one other person, and Anuj is moving on to a different company(Creative Assembly? Think they're the guys behind the Total War games). So at the moment the 30K design team is a single person.
Imagine making an entirely different weapon profile only to create an already existing weapon unique to the legion but just -1 strength. This is the kind of petty nerfs that are just absolutely annoying beyond belief. This unit is trash tier. Literally give them Chain-GLAIVES, and give them Volkite CULVERINS. Fulimentarus and Siege tyrants already exist. Hell, even space wolf Varagyr can take 10 reaper autocannons or heavy flamers. Whoever wrote these rules, and then updated them with points nerfs are absolutely mental.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally, all Terminators should have two wounds. Legion Terminators should get veteran tactics.
As a side note to the already depressing stats of these terminators.
What will be in this kit?
Loadout wise:
5x volkites
5x heavy flamers
5x chainglaives
1x power claw.
That’s everything covered I think, but I wouldn’t mind betting that most of it is missed from the actual kit.
BA dawnbreakers are a good example here.
They literally have a spear in the kit plus wrist mounted launcher.
One look at the rules and you realise they are missing a lot with no actual parts available for the rest.
I’m predicting: no claw in the kit.
4 chainglaives.
A mix of around 7-8 flamers/volkites.
That way it’s not enough to arm the whole unit with one or the other.
Anuj Malhotra wrote:I've had a fantastic time writing the narratives of, designing the rules for and concepting many of the models for the Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness game over the last few years with Forge World, but it's time for me to leave the crusade, and to begin my next great project.
I'm incredibly proud of the work I've done on the Horus Heresy and what I've achieved at Forge World. I'm also very confident in the game's future - some of the best is yet to come. Given the way we work years ahead of releases, you'll keep seeing my invisible hand on things for a long while yet, and I'll keep consulting and play-testing for the team for as long as they'll have me.
I want to thank the overwhelmingly talented people I've had the opportunity to work alongside again, as well as all of the super passionate fans of the game who I've enjoyed meeting and who've given the team so much useful feedback. I did it for you guys in the community, you've been excellent.
Lastly, a special shout out to my partner in heresy, Neil Wylie, for being an exceptional person to work with and continuing to be the driving force behind everything that's cool in the Age of Darkness. It has been just the two of us writing and designing these last few years, and I have every faith in him for the future.
As for me, from tomorrow I'll be designing computer games with Creative Assembly. Incredibly excited.
Well. That's that. Seems they [FW] haven't got a clue what to do with Heresy at the moment, at least that's what I get from the outside.
They really should do some sort of roadmap like they did for Necromunda if for nothing else then at least showing us a vague idea that something is happening....
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Well, they could start releasing Legion specific Leviathans
They've only done 4, so that's 14 more releases right there!
Exactly! Once they've finished that they can do Chaos tainted Traitor Primarchs.
On a more serious note, the Imperial Guard equivalent troops are pretty light on choices, no?
Militia, I would say, will be one of the few last things they will do IF they do it at all. They still have to release the Word Bearer praetors they’ve shown. Salamanders, Fists, Ultramarines and maybe some more are also missing Praetors.
zedmeister wrote: Well. That's that. Seems they [FW] haven't got a clue what to do with Heresy at the moment, at least that's what I get from the outside.
They really should do some sort of roadmap like they did for Necromunda if for nothing else then at least showing us a vague idea that something is happening....
I've just recently emailed them with some of my issues and concerns about things like this - the lack of FW communication, no roadmap, nothing about future plans, and so on. I used whatever the customer service email is on their site, and got a response back a few days later that said that they appreciated any feedback, and that my message would be passed on to the relevant teams, though they(the customer service rep) couldn't guarantee a response or any changes. Which I understand - development in wargames often takes several years and whatnot - but really I'd love for them to just tell us more, give the players more articles on lore, more army showcases, and so on. As for their plans for the Heresy, even a vague statement like "We have some upcoming plastic releases in late 2021, and legion-specific praetors for Legion X and Legion Y are almost ready to be shown as well" would satisfy me. Just... something.
Mr. Grey wrote: I've just recently emailed them with some of my issues and concerns about things like this - the lack of FW communication, no roadmap, nothing about future plans, and so on.
One of the two guys in charge of the heresy at GW just left the company to work for the company that makes the Total War computer games. That, in conjunction with the pace of releases over the last two years and the focus on primaris, doesn't leave me hopeful.
Yeah I just posted that like, a page back. Really, if you have any worries about Heresy, email them. Flood them with messages about why you're worried. Be polite. Customer feedback is super important.
I did hear a bit ago on the Eye of Horus podcast that there are some rumors that 30k will be moving more toward a Necromunda-style release schedule, so a smaller book and a plastic kit every quarter or so.Not sure how much faith to put into that, but again it ties into the whole "lack of communication from FW" thing, which is where emailing them and letting them know you want more news about Horus Heresy comes in.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: One of the two guys in charge of the heresy at GW just left the company to work for the company that makes the Total War computer games.
Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.
the problem is they need to just update it to the newest rules set.....all it would take is to update the Armory books like they published 3 or so years ago to 9th Edition.
People can still have the huge black fluff books but at least people could play the same set of rules most the other GW players are using....making them fully compatible would be even better.
Also would say having fully compatible rules for all the 30k resin stuff would probably increase sales as well...as I cant imagine the sales are great on the stuff that is still only stuck with 30k rules from 2 editions ago now.
HH would be doing better if they actually put in any semblance of effort. High price of entry, no reasonable starter box, over reliance on resin, etc. They discontinued mk II armor with no plastic kit to replace it. The rules are more crunchy and complex than i'd like. What this game has going for it is the fantastic setting and some of the models (gal vorbak and such). But they've let it sit and stagnate for too long.
H.B.M.C. wrote: 40 points seems like a lot for a W1 Terminator.
I mean, if you recall, it took until 7th for the basic Power Fist + Storm Bolter Terminator to be brought down for even 35 points. GW probably thinks that even with just the dinky swords that the shooting and all the other rules makes them 40 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thargrim wrote: HH would be doing better if they actually put in any semblance of effort. High price of entry, no reasonable starter box, over reliance on resin, etc. They discontinued mk II armor with no plastic kit to replace it. The rules are more crunchy and complex than i'd like. What this game has going for it is the fantastic setting and some of the models (gal vorbak and such). But they've let it sit and stagnate for too long.
We technically had two reasonable starter sets with Mk3 and Mk4 stuff but they won't do those anymore for reasons.
CragHack wrote: Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.
All the other companies doing plastics seem to disagree. I mean, I'm sure Oathmark is not as popular as HH, for example, and they have... what, like eight plastic kits already?
And we're talking about companies that can't do their molds in-house, so for GW it should be cheaper, not more expensive.
CragHack wrote: Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.
All the other companies doing plastics seem to disagree. I mean, I'm sure Oathmark is not as popular as HH, for example, and they have... what, like eight plastic kits already?
And we're talking about companies that can't do their molds in-house, so for GW it should be cheaper, not more expensive.
The Oathmark kits are made by Renedra, and are generic enough they can be used with other game systems. But yes, more & more companies are making stuff in plastic - I like the stuff Wargames Atlantic is doing (and they have an interesting page about it - Wargames Atlantic Outsource).
GW's financial report mentioned that their new new factory & warehouse still aren't completely up and running, so I wonder if this is delaying things even more.
Please don’t forget that there are HH plastic kits; Mk. III & IV marines, the two terminator kits, the (actually pretty terrible for GW but still better than some companies) Contemptor, the first Custodes kit, the SoS, & the terminator/PA captains set. That’s eight moulds right there, all made specifically for the Heresy and still available separately. The space Wolf and 1ksons characters from the prospero box were exclusive.
chaos45 wrote: the problem is they need to just update it to the newest rules set.....all it would take is to update the Armory books like they published 3 or so years ago to 9th Edition.
People can still have the huge black fluff books but at least people could play the same set of rules most the other GW players are using....making them fully compatible would be even better.
Also would say having fully compatible rules for all the 30k resin stuff would probably increase sales as well...as I cant imagine the sales are great on the stuff that is still only stuck with 30k rules from 2 editions ago now.
The 9E rules are the reason I’m still playing 30k.
An edition change for 30k is very different from 40k.
Books tend to be far more expensive and slow to release.
A lot of people would just drop 30k after having £200+ in books made invalid.
Most of my group plays 30k because of how it plays.
The group grew by quite a bit thanks to 9E rules and people not liking them.
We don’t need a 40k MK2, it’s a different game and needs to stay that way.
If HH is to survive, they need rules to be compatible with 9th.
Housing based on an old rule set that you have to buy several very expensive books for is insane.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If HH is to survive, they need rules to be compatible with 9th.
Housing based on an old rule set that you have to buy several very expensive books for is insane.
So it’s less insane to screw every 30k player on all those expensive books they already own?
Dysartes wrote: And, of course, The Khan still needs to be sculpted/released - he is the last Primarch to be done, and the only one we're waiting for, isn't he?
Yes (assuming they're not doing Omegon). Then the various empowered Traitor versions.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If HH is to survive, they need rules to be compatible with 9th.
Housing based on an old rule set that you have to buy several very expensive books for is insane.
So it’s less insane to screw every 30k player on all those expensive books they already own?
Yes, start up needs to be brought to a minimum.
40k is bad at start up too, but not as bad as 30k.
Besides, it's not like they are taking your books away, you still have them.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If HH is to survive, they need rules to be compatible with 9th.
Housing based on an old rule set that you have to buy several very expensive books for is insane.
So it’s less insane to screw every 30k player on all those expensive books they already own?
Yes, start up needs to be brought to a minimum.
40k is bad at start up too, but not as bad as 30k.
Besides, it's not like they are taking your books away, you still have them.
Except those books are then entirely useless for the purpose people paid for.
By that same logic, we can remove a few armies from 40k entirely but it’s fine, you still have the models.
Jackal90 wrote: Except those books are then entirely useless for the purpose people paid for.
By that same logic, we can remove a few armies from 40k entirely but it’s fine, you still have the models.
No, it would be more like if you have, let's say, 40k 7th edition and the codex for your armies and GW releases a new edition, let's say the 8th ( ). Or 2nd to 3rd, etc.
You still have everything to play the edition you have, but it won't be supported anymore.
Except those books are then entirely useless for the purpose people paid for.
By that same logic, we can remove a few armies from 40k entirely but it’s fine, you still have the models.
I still play 6th Edition WFB, despite GW not supporting it.
Believe it or not, but books and models won't suddenly disappear from your shelf just because GW have decided to move on.
I own the first four black books in hardback, bought them on release and have peered through their gilded pages many times - mostly just because they're nice objects. I don't play 30K though, but would be tempted in if they finally updated and streamlined the process. Mostly I would like plastic troops still, preferably from MK.III through to VI.
CragHack wrote: Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.
I mean, everything GW makes in plastic is marked up like 2000% from it's actual value anyway so...
I know several HH players who would completely stop playing if the game were changed to the 9th Ed ruleset. We'd probably keep playing the current edition and just stop buying HH altogether. The fact that it isn't 8th/9th, with armor facings and USRs rather than wombo-combo stratagems, is part of the appeal.
Except those books are then entirely useless for the purpose people paid for.
By that same logic, we can remove a few armies from 40k entirely but it’s fine, you still have the models.
I still play 6th Edition WFB, despite GW not supporting it.
Believe it or not, but books and models won't suddenly disappear from your shelf just because GW have decided to move on..
People like to say this a lot, but it really, really depends on your local community. The majority of people are only interested in following the Party Line and once a ruleset is no longer officially supported, drop it like a bad habit. It's all well and good you wanting to use them, but if none else is willing to accommodate that's a fat load of good, plus the odds of getting new blood in are slim to zero.
CragHack wrote: Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.
I mean, everything GW makes in plastic is marked up like 2000% from it's actual value anyway so...
In the same way that a movie or videogame DVD is marked up thousands of times what it costs to produce a DVD. 'Actual value' isn't a thing when you're talking about a product with significant up-front investment and comparatively far lower production costs.
chaos45 wrote: the problem is they need to just update it to the newest rules set.....all it would take is to update the Armory books like they published 3 or so years ago to 9th Edition.
People can still have the huge black fluff books but at least people could play the same set of rules most the other GW players are using....making them fully compatible would be even better.
Also would say having fully compatible rules for all the 30k resin stuff would probably increase sales as well...as I cant imagine the sales are great on the stuff that is still only stuck with 30k rules from 2 editions ago now.
No thanks. The last thing I'm interested in for 30k is a 3-year churn cycle of new editions and book releases that are going to be outdated in less than two years' time. I like the current ruleset, and while it does have it's issues, you better believe that I'm glad that the army books and rulebook I bought four years ago are still current and usable. I absolutely can't say the same for my big 8th ed BRB, and I'm annoyed that GW keeps doing constant codex and points updates via new books. There's a good reason, pandemic aside, that I haven't purchased a single thing for 9e yet.
What Horus Heresy really needs is a dedicated design team of more than 2 people that's willing to push the game hard, communicate with players, and drum up interest in the game. I want 30k to see the same kinds of content that Necromunda has right now - frequent articles on the Warhammer Community site, a good cycle of miniature releases, and so on. Additionally, an affordable starter set of some kind. And like I've mentioned before, I've emailed FW with all of these concerns and issues and suggest that others do the same.
Except those books are then entirely useless for the purpose people paid for.
By that same logic, we can remove a few armies from 40k entirely but it’s fine, you still have the models.
I still play 6th Edition WFB, despite GW not supporting it.
Believe it or not, but books and models won't suddenly disappear from your shelf just because GW have decided to move on..
People like to say this a lot, but it really, really depends on your local community. The majority of people are only interested in following the Party Line and once a ruleset is no longer officially supported, drop it like a bad habit. It's all well and good you wanting to use them, but if none else is willing to accommodate that's a fat load of good, plus the odds of getting new blood in are slim to zero.
Fair.
I am fortuante enough to live in Nottingham, the centre of the lead-belt and about ten minutes walk from Warhammer World.
Right. This is why HH is doomed to stay as a neglected fringe product. The dozen or so diehards that still play the game wouldn't tolerate the update to modern rules, and the lack of the same stops the game from gaining more widespread popularity.
Crimson wrote: Right. This is why HH is doomed to stay as a neglected fringe product. The dozen or so diehards that still play the game wouldn't tolerate the update to modern rules, and the lack of the same stops the game from gaining more widespread popularity.
Many people play heresy specifically because they prefer the 7th ed system. I enjoy heresy for the models and fluff but I also prefer the way game plays, 9th feels too disconnected and very obvious youre playing a game. The mechanics might be easier for new players (although with the slew of FAQs, updates, advanced rules, supplements etc I dont think 9th is any easier) but once you learn heresy it plays much faster and is more engaging.
The real thing heresy is struggling with is advertising and ease of access. No starter set and incredibly expensive models and books make it scary for someone starting from scratch.
So...Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero were both box sets in the right direction...but instead of making them 7th Edition/HH rules they became their own simple game.
I have a friend who went nuts with Calth and is big into the Word Bearers, but has no experience with 7th, 8th or 9th...he likes the models and wants to not buy the wrong rules.
If FW could just repackage BaC or BoP with the 7th Ed Starter Rules (or a new quick-guide to HH) I think it would go a long way towards sustaining the HH brand as a miniatures game.
And yes, I have tried to explain the differences to him, but he wants "official" rules outside of the Calth boardgame...
CragHack wrote: Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.
I mean, everything GW makes in plastic is marked up like 2000% from it's actual value anyway so...
In the same way that a movie or videogame DVD is marked up thousands of times what it costs to produce a DVD. 'Actual value' isn't a thing when you're talking about a product with significant up-front investment and comparatively far lower production costs.
Except that's in no-way comparable, since a DVD is just a device for the real product stored inside.
Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH
Sacredroach wrote: So...Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero were both box sets in the right direction...but instead of making them 7th Edition/HH rules they became their own simple game.
I have a friend who went nuts with Calth and is big into the Word Bearers, but has no experience with 7th, 8th or 9th...he likes the models and wants to not buy the wrong rules.
If FW could just repackage BaC or BoP with the 7th Ed Starter Rules (or a new quick-guide to HH) I think it would go a long way towards sustaining the HH brand as a miniatures game.
And yes, I have tried to explain the differences to him, but he wants "official" rules outside of the Calth boardgame...
Crimson wrote: Right. This is why HH is doomed to stay as a neglected fringe product. The dozen or so diehards that still play the game wouldn't tolerate the update to modern rules, and the lack of the same stops the game from gaining more widespread popularity.
Nice exaggeration on that.
But no.
Most don’t want dumbed down rules.
30k has its issues but it works as a game.
Look at the absolute gak state of 40k.
Why would anyone want that?
And by “wouldn’t tolerate modern rules” you mean, doesn’t want to play a complete disaster of an edition?
The game is slow, but has pretty much no designers working on it and being almost completely made by FW kind of pushes that.
Naturally it won’t have a huge fan base.
My biggest issues is the relentless 40k kiddies that cry because every 30k unit isn’t in 40k.
CragHack wrote: Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.
I mean, everything GW makes in plastic is marked up like 2000% from it's actual value anyway so...
In the same way that a movie or videogame DVD is marked up thousands of times what it costs to produce a DVD. 'Actual value' isn't a thing when you're talking about a product with significant up-front investment and comparatively far lower production costs.
Except that's in no-way comparable, since a DVD is just a device for the real product stored inside.
DVDs are a medium for movies as is plastic/resin/etc for models...
You are basically arguing for people to only buy green stuff and make all their models themselves as the design holds no value.
Crimson wrote: Right. This is why HH is doomed to stay as a neglected fringe product. The dozen or so diehards that still play the game wouldn't tolerate the update to modern rules, and the lack of the same stops the game from gaining more widespread popularity.
Pretty much this, nobody locally wants to start HH to go back to 7th. Another plastic starter box would do wonders.
Yeah, rules are a mess, armies are resin.
Just make it so you can have your Legion rules and army easily.
200+ dollars in books to start an already expensive game is stupid.
It also hurts the health of the game. If it's hard for people to get into, it will die.
9th ed rules, Armor Mks Combat patrol, easy legion rules to get will make it much more palatable.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yeah, rules are a mess, armies are resin.
Just make it so you can have your Legion rules and army easily.
200+ dollars in books to start an already expensive game is stupid.
It also hurts the health of the game. If it's hard for people to get into, it will die.
9th ed rules, Armor Mks Combat patrol, easy legion rules to get will make it much more palatable.
How is this any different from 8e/9e where you need $100 worth of rulebook and codex, and who knows how many extra supplements to stay current on the points values and newest hotness in stratagems and tactics? Oh and then you get to replace those books in three years when the next edition comes out. I bought the 2019 Chapter Approved in November of said year and got to play a single game of 8e with those points values before the pandemic hit and then 9th ed came out... and immediately made my $40 purchase a useless pile of paper.
"Armies are resin" ...um, sure, except where the bulk of your infantry can be plastic thanks to the plastic tactical squads. Not to mention the number of current plastic kits that are perfectly fine for 30k as well - the Land Raider, Rhino, Predator, Land Speeder, Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators, the Contemptor.
I think for every person screaming about wanting Horus Heresy to go to 9e rules, there are more that like the stable ruleset and prefer it for the game setting over the current rules mess(and yes, I'm one of those). If the FW writers can't manage to even put out an Index that isn't riddled with problems and inconsistencies for all the current FW minis to be used in 9e, what makes you think they can manage to do rules for 18 space marine legions, Solar Auxilia, and Mechanicum?
Thing is, since HH is only one person and the rules are only supported by themselves, how is that better than having a team with a unified way of thinking working together? Kinda like how it was before 8th.
I get not wanting 40k levels of FOTM, but the game is effectively dead locally. Which for me is irritating since I was just beginning to build my 30k Salamanders & looking to add some Mechanicum Knights. Sad part is it was played often @ FLGS prior to Alan's passing.
Not looking for it to go to 9th, but overall improvements and some streamlining wouldn't hurt.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yeah, rules are a mess, armies are resin.
Just make it so you can have your Legion rules and army easily.
200+ dollars in books to start an already expensive game is stupid.
It also hurts the health of the game. If it's hard for people to get into, it will die.
9th ed rules, Armor Mks Combat patrol, easy legion rules to get will make it much more palatable.
How is this any different from 8e/9e where you need $100 worth of rulebook and codex, and who knows how many extra supplements to stay current on the points values and newest hotness in stratagems and tactics? Oh and then you get to replace those books in three years when the next edition comes out. I bought the 2019 Chapter Approved in November of said year and got to play a single game of 8e with those points values before the pandemic hit and then 9th ed came out... and immediately made my $40 purchase a useless pile of paper.
If i buy a combat patrol, or recent kits, all the rules are in the set.
So you dont need to.
Not to mention Rulebooks being in starter sets, codexes being less then or about 50$.
If, for 40k, I wanted to play Thousand Sons, i would just need to buy the codex(Obviously models and such, but you get my point) 50$
if for 30k i would need to buy, Rules, 62$, Inferno 124$, the Army of Darkness book. 50$ 200+ for books.
Now imagine this. 30k uses 40k rules. Ok, 62$ gone. They stop tying the rules to massive leather bound books, if I want to plat TS, maybe a thousand son rules to buy(Like 20$, get all the legion rules for you legion, 20$ for every legion. and then a book or ebook of all the rules.
Then imagine, Combat Patrol, Mk3 Combat PAtrol mk4. Boom easy entry.
Making the Barrier to entry is much easier.
Once people have their foot in the door easily, they will then buy the expensive resin.
There is no reason they cannot tweak 9th to their benifit( We dont use these strategems, we use these ones, armies are built using X detachment instead.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH
Yes, absolutely. But every time when it suggested that the rules would be updated to be compatible with 40K again, many of the remaining HH players will have a fit. (As we can see in this thread.)
hotsauceman1 wrote: Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH
Yes, absolutely. But every time when it suggested that the rules would be updated to be compatible with 40K again, many of the remaining HH players will have a fit. (As we can see in this thread.)
I don’t know how much correlation and causation line up on that one. Yes, heresy was at its peak at that time, and yes the rules were the same as the 40k edition at the time. But I’m not sure I agree that’s why HH was at its peak, or why it isn’t now. Support hasn’t been great for the game for a while, FW resins are more expensive than ever, they didn’t keep up the plastic momentum, books take years to come out etc... I think these are more the reason than the specific rules set used. The whole heresy scene was pretty big then, it wasn’t just heresy armies being used in 40k.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH
Yes, absolutely. But every time when it suggested that the rules would be updated to be compatible with 40K again, many of the remaining HH players will have a fit. (As we can see in this thread.)
One suspects that’s less to do with the actual rules sets in questions, and more the hefty price of gathering the FW rules, scattered as they are across multiple (quite expensive) volumes.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily. That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH
Yes, absolutely. But every time when it suggested that the rules would be updated to be compatible with 40K again, many of the remaining HH players will have a fit. (As we can see in this thread.)
For many, they now see HH as a separate game rather than an expansion or mod for 40k so don't see the need to change.
The kit comes with three heavy flamers, two volkite cavitors and five Nostraman chainblades. There is an option to make one member into a squad leader, known as a Dissident, and he can also be armed with a escaton power claw instead of his Nostraman chainblade. There are six heads included – five helmeted and one bare – giving you some flexibility with how you assemble your squad.
Just seen that.
Wasn’t far off with my guess.
So the only actual option is a claw for the leader.
Not enough of either ranged weapon for the entire unit.
Just bugs me as it’s not something they’d have to make extra sculpts for either.
Just throw in a few duplicate arms and everyone has weapon options.
Mr. Grey wrote: If the FW writers can't manage to even put out an Index that isn't riddled with problems and inconsistencies for all the current FW minis to be used in 9e, what makes you think they can manage to do rules for 18 space marine legions, Solar Auxilia, and Mechanicum?
Minor point, dude - if you mean the most recent FW Index, that was written by the GW40k rules team, not the FW staff.
I think hotsauceman has made maybe one good point so far - that a Start Collecting/Combat Patrol box (or two) using the various HH plastics would be a solid idea.
I am someone who actually plays 30k and is not interested in current 40k. You might wonder why someone like me wouldnt like to go 9th edition if you are not a 30k player yourself. After all you are limiting yourself and the amount of players youre able to play with. Let me explain from my point of view.
At this point of time 40k is changing drastically too fast. Back in time you got a new edition every 4 or so years. Codex every 4-5 years and some like DE could wait even longer (not that i was happy about it). Nowadays armies like SM got 3 codexes over the last 4 years (2017, 2019, 2020). Thats like wow... GW even changed the stats of weapons and SM statistics. I just dont see the same to be updated constantly to HH. Its just too much, too fast.
To the cost of the rules - to play HH you basically need Rulebook, Legion Book and Army List. Perhaps a big black book if you choose a legion with newest rules.. But you have to pay once and you know these are the rules youre going to stick with for years. If you so choose to play for example Orbital Assault oriented army (full of drop pods) you are quite sure this army is going to be viable for years to come. I remember the time of change from 4th to 5th edition when suddenly my IG from lots of infantry with several tanks had to become full mechanised to catch up.
But it doesnt mean i wouldnt like HH to have an updated Rulebook. I would like the rules revision, updating costs, etc. Even something like alternate activation stuff maybe. However i dont want it to become simply 9th edition. I just dont see HH to be updated constantly to catch up to the newest incarnation of SM codex. HH at this point of time should have its own, stable rules. Slow and steady.
Currently what HH need the most is a good starter set. Something like Betrayal at Calth.
Glumy wrote: I am someone who actually plays 30k and is not interested in current 40k. You might wonder why someone like me wouldnt like to go 9th edition if you are not a 30k player yourself. After all you are limiting yourself and the amount of players youre able to play with. Let me explain from my point of view.
At this point of time 40k is changing drastically too fast. Back in time you got a new edition every 4 or so years. Codex every 4-5 years and some like DE could wait even longer (not that i was happy about it). Nowadays armies like SM got 3 codexes over the last 4 years (2017, 2019, 2020). Thats like wow... GW even changed the stats of weapons and SM statistics. I just dont see the same to be updated constantly to HH. Its just too much, too fast.
You understand that the books weren't just for the sake of "changing things", yeah? That they were adding pretty hefty chunks of new units into things--and paving the way for the new supplement system?
To the cost of the rules - to play HH you basically need Rulebook, Legion Book and Army List. Perhaps a big black book if you choose a legion with newest rules.. But you have to pay once and you know these are the rules youre going to stick with for years. If you so choose to play for example Orbital Assault oriented army (full of drop pods) you are quite sure this army is going to be viable for years to come. I remember the time of change from 4th to 5th edition when suddenly my IG from lots of infantry with several tanks had to become full mechanised to catch up.
These two things are not related. The IG example is you choosing to be a metachaser while the first is 'essential play' items.
And it completely ignores that if you want to play any army that is in resin, you're going to have a rough go of it.
But it doesnt mean i wouldnt like HH to have an updated Rulebook. I would like the rules revision, updating costs, etc. Even something like alternate activation stuff maybe. However i dont want it to become simply 9th edition. I just dont see HH to be updated constantly to catch up to the newest incarnation of SM codex. HH at this point of time should have its own, stable rules. Slow and steady.
Currently what HH need the most is a good starter set. Something like Betrayal at Calth.
#bringbackcalth
What Horus Heresy needs to be an actual game is not "a good starter set". You could set people up with a Combat Patrol in plastic if they wanted to play Marines.
It needs to have something that actually differentiates it, meaningfully, from 40k. The Primarchs alone are not enough.
It needs to have a meaningful range of models available in plastic. That Solar Auxilia were not plastic was a huge missed opportunity.
List could go on and on.
Additionally? There's very much an unwelcoming and unhelpful segment of that community. Your own post is a fairly good example, behaving as though 30k is super special and cherrypicking things to showcase why 40k bad but 30k good.
You understand that the books weren't just for the sake of "changing things", yeah? That they were adding pretty hefty chunks of new units into things--and paving the way for the new supplement system?
I am very happy it works for you. I am not a fan of too many changes too fast especially when you dont even have time to apprieciate the "new" codex in 1 year time.
And it completely ignores that if you want to play any army that is in resin, you're going to have a rough go of it.
I am quite open for a change from resin to plastic. However if you think change of ruleset will help in this... Well im not so optimistic.
What Horus Heresy needs to be an actual game is not "a good starter set". You could set people up with a Combat Patrol in plastic if they wanted to play Marines.
It needs to have something that actually differentiates it, meaningfully, from 40k. The Primarchs alone are not enough.
It needs to have a meaningful range of models available in plastic. That Solar Auxilia were not plastic was a huge missed opportunity.
List could go on and on.
I presume you dont play 30k. I dont even know if youre talking to people who actually play the game. I am one. I tell you we need a good starter set. Please dont force on us something we dont actually want.
Edit: I didnt make myself clear. I am sceptical this stuff will get to be in plastic. I am open to this but i just do not believe it. For it to happen we first need a good starter set so GW will see this stuff sells.
Additionally? There's very much an unwelcoming and unhelpful segment of that community. Your own post is a fairly good example, behaving as though 30k is super special and cherrypicking things to showcase why 40k bad but 30k good.
I dont know why are you saying my post was 'unwelcoming'. This is an illusion. I am not forcing anything on 40k so please dont force anything on 30k the actual players wouldnt apprieciate.
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