Kratos, upgrades, and books are more expensive than I had hoped but still I'm happy to see this list, I'm gonna buy the starter box this weekend, then later the kratos, a rhino, both upgrades, and the books.
No. 2 week preorders are 2 weeks. These all mentioned are on sale 18.6. No before, no later. And nothing of note(don't say nothing in case they do random novel release but no battletome, no codex, no miniature at least for main games).
GW follows it's release patterns to a dot.
What comes after these will be announced 12.6 on what will come to preorder on 18.6.
The price of the new Rhino sounds almost decent considering how far they raised vehicle prices in the recent past. They really want me to buy one or two, don't they?
as HH is now a main game, expect a Starter Set to be always available
if this specific box will be or be replaced with another set ones it sold out, time will tell
RazorEdge wrote: They also said the first Warcry Starter Set would be permanent...
Don't remember that being said but I'd be glad to be proven wrong.
Also, Warcry has had three box sets all of which have been constantly available until the new one was released and all the Warbands were made available separately.
kodos wrote: as HH is now a main game, expect a Starter Set to be always available
if this specific box will be or be replaced with another set ones it sold out, time will tell
But then is this the starter set or HH's equilavent of indomitus/dominion?
I love how everyone is using Cursed City as a comparison when that was clearly an outlier case. It's almost like you want to be proven right so you have more things to complain about.
They've said permanent but no one believes them because it means ebay etc will be flooded with models at about 40-50% of what GW's preferred RRP is likely to be on releasing them separately.
I think you'll be able to get 10 MKVI tactical marines, 5 terminators etc for say £12.50-£15.
This may be a good thing for getting people into the game - but as with Indomitus etc, it seems unlikely something they want to encourage forever.
My entire 30k/40k force which was replicating war of the beast Salamanders.
It was all Mkiii & iv with my original RTB-01 squad. Everything but the Rtb's had FW upgrades and all vehicles were Deimos/LR Helios/resin FW stuff.
Luckily I have receipts for pretty much everything sp INS will pay up but my time and effort in to making them look they way they did can't be redressed...
Oh my God that's awful, so glad that insurance will cover it.
If this game uses 40k 7th ed rules, does that mean that anything AP4 or less effectively has no AP? Pretty much every army in HH is power armoured marines or better...
Patriarch wrote: If this game uses 40k 7th ed rules, does that mean that anything AP4 or less effectively has no AP? Pretty much every army in HH is power armoured marines or better...
Recon Marines / Scouts are a thing, and there are several non-Marine armies (Mechanicum, Imperial Army, Deamons, Cults & Militia).
Have any idea on how long the books will be useful? GW has a propensity to make printed materials redundant very quickly, and at that price point they are just too expensive for that.
Pleasantly surprised by most of the other prices though.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Have any idea on how long the books will be useful? GW has a propensity to make printed materials redundant very quickly, and at that price point they are just too expensive for that.
Pleasantly surprised by most of the other prices though.
With the goodies and baddies (or baddies and goodies, depending on pov) books clocking in at Hardcover 344 (and 352) page, I'd actually be surprised if they started doing legion specific army books.
However, I _hope_ for campaign books, and I imagine they'd slip in special units and whatnot into each of the campaign books
What I'm really interested in is if there will be a 30k army builder app. I really like the AOS one (not so much the 40k one)
Damn. I wouldn't mind getting the age of darkness box. Not a bad price for the contents. However this month I have various taxes and insurances to pay so I may have to wait. Does anyone have any idea of how long the box will be about?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Damn. I wouldn't mind getting the age of darkness box. Not a bad price for the contents. However this month I have various taxes and insurances to pay so I may have to wait. Does anyone have any idea of how long the box will be about?
They have indicated that it's not a splash release and will be around for a bit, but what that means in practice is not yet clear
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Damn. I wouldn't mind getting the age of darkness box. Not a bad price for the contents. However this month I have various taxes and insurances to pay so I may have to wait. Does anyone have any idea of how long the box will be about?
Patriarch wrote: If this game uses 40k 7th ed rules, does that mean that anything AP4 or less effectively has no AP? Pretty much every army in HH is power armoured marines or better...
Recon Marines / Scouts are a thing, and there are several non-Marine armies (Mechanicum, Imperial Army, Deamons, Cults & Militia).
It will depend largely on how much support those other armies get in order to make people want to play them, otherwise the meta will still be largely Space Marines. If Mechanicum and the Imperial Army/Solar Auxilia are still all Forgeworld, then you won't see many of them running around.
Scratch that original post because the article has stuff from FW listed under the FW release section. So it seems that yes the dice and transfers will be on GW.
Gert wrote:GW has said that the box will be around for good.
Slinky wrote:They have indicated that it's not a splash release and will be around for a bit, but what that means in practice is not yet clear
this is what Adam and Eddie said on the stream:
"a new box game for warhammer"
"it's not a limited release"
"expecting to have lots and lots of copies, there will be enough for everybody, it'll be on shelves for the foreseeable future"
"of course if things go mad and everyone buys it, we'll have to make more"
From those quotes, I would infer it will be like Indomitus, wherein there are X number of launch copies, and then a Made To Order when they run out ("not a limited release", "we'll have to make more" - ie everyone who wants one will be able to get one, even if it's a MTO), and will eventually go out of production ("foreseeable future"). (and then, in my estimation, be replaced by one to three starter sets)
Personally I absolutely do not expect it to be in production after a certain amount of time (several months, after initial stock and reprints for reorders and for MTO's).
judgedoug wrote: this is what Adam and Eddie said on the stream:
"a new box game for warhammer"
"it's not a limited release"
"expecting to have lots and lots of copies, there will be enough for everybody, it'll be on shelves for the foreseeable future"
"of course if things go mad and everyone buys it, we'll have to make more"
From those quotes, I would infer it will be like Indomitus, wherein there are X number of launch copies, and then a Made To Order when they run out ("not a limited release", "we'll have to make more" - ie everyone who wants one will be able to get one, even if it's a MTO), and will eventually go out of production ("foreseeable future"). (and then, in my estimation, be replaced by one to three starter sets)
Personally I absolutely do not expect it to be in production after a certain amount of time (several months, after initial stock and reprints for reorders and for MTO's).
Except Indomitus was a limited release as was Dominion. At no point did GW every say those boxes were not limited sets. Conversely, the AoD boxset is said to not be limited and will be on sale for some time.
I legitimately don't know how you can think the latter is the same as the former.
Well for one gw keeps using term "launch box" which so far been 100% indomitus style. Gw been using terms launch box and starter set consistently so far. This being until new edition would be first inconsistent usage by gw
judgedoug wrote: this is what Adam and Eddie said on the stream:
"a new box game for warhammer"
"it's not a limited release"
"expecting to have lots and lots of copies, there will be enough for everybody, it'll be on shelves for the foreseeable future"
"of course if things go mad and everyone buys it, we'll have to make more"
From those quotes, I would infer it will be like Indomitus, wherein there are X number of launch copies, and then a Made To Order when they run out ("not a limited release", "we'll have to make more" - ie everyone who wants one will be able to get one, even if it's a MTO), and will eventually go out of production ("foreseeable future"). (and then, in my estimation, be replaced by one to three starter sets)
Personally I absolutely do not expect it to be in production after a certain amount of time (several months, after initial stock and reprints for reorders and for MTO's).
Except Indomitus was a limited release as was Dominion. At no point did GW every say those boxes were not limited sets. Conversely, the AoD boxset is said to not be limited and will be on sale for some time.
I legitimately don't know how you can think the latter is the same as the former.
I would love my inferences to be incorrect, but I would rather prepare for the worst by reading between the lines than assume the best. I hope GW proves me wrong.
You can also never trust what they say, really. They've even been known to go back and redact / fully delete warcom and social media posts. They profit from this uncertainty via fomo.
It's a launch box for the new edition & it's here to stay!
That's a bit of an unfortunate statement. The term "launch box" has so far been used specifically for limited time releases. Of course the bottom line is good since as has been noted contents are good for the price, so the box sticking around is very welcome.
It just makes things more uncertain in the future as GW doesn't seem to have an interest in clear terminology. No shock there, I guess.
Limited stuff is limited. In the CCC it was the opposite of "FOMO" as they said the box will be available for a while and it was not. It was a disaster, but you can't tell me it was on purpose. Since then they added a guarantee for several boxes to avoid something like that.
Btw, 'FOMO' isn't the best term to use as it is a psychological problem. If it's used like the fear of missing a good deal, you can find it in every supermarket.
Racerguy180 wrote: My entire 30k/40k force which was replicating war of the beast Salamanders.
It was all Mkiii & iv with my original RTB-01 squad. Everything but the Rtb's had FW upgrades and all vehicles were Deimos/LR Helios/resin FW stuff.
Luckily I have receipts for pretty much everything sp INS will pay up but my time and effort in to making them look they way they did can't be redressed...
I think I'd missed that - sorry to hear about it, dude.
Thanks, this whole thing is just a massive kick in the junk.
My entire 30k/40k force which was replicating war of the beast Salamanders.
It was all Mkiii & iv with my original RTB-01 squad. Everything but the Rtb's had FW upgrades and all vehicles were Deimos/LR Helios/resin FW stuff.
Luckily I have receipts for pretty much everything sp INS will pay up but my time and effort in to making them look they way they did can't be redressed...
Oh my God that's awful, so glad that insurance will cover it.
Still am out my deductible, but it'll definitely make replacing this less painful(in the wallet).
I appreciate the feelings.
I can't decide how I feel about GW doubling up the books for loyalists/traitors versus the way FW had previously done it with a distinct list book and another for the legions themselves.
It's less books to carry but more to buy if you want access to all the legions' rules.
It's the same amount of books as before except now you only have to bring one army book to a game to be able to play anything more than a basic list with no Legion traits, characters, or units.
Gert wrote: It's the same amount of books as before except now you only have to bring one army book to a game to be able to play anything more than a basic list with no Legion traits, characters, or units.
These new books are significantly more expensive than the old ones (70 USD vs ~55) though.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: These new books are significantly more expensive than the old ones (70 USD vs ~55) though.
They're also much bigger (about double the size) and, once again, contain full army lists for each side rather than just generic units or specific units. It's a flat upgrade.
Gert wrote: It's the same amount of books as before except now you only have to bring one army book to a game to be able to play anything more than a basic list with no Legion traits, characters, or units.
These new books are significantly more expensive than the old ones (70 USD vs ~55) though.
They're also much bigger (about double the size) and, once again, contain full army lists for each side rather than just generic units or specific units. It's a flat upgrade.
Think of it this way; they are roughly equivalent to Codex: Space Marines plus nine Codex Supplement: X books in 40K terms. Each. Yeah there’s a bunch of redundancy buying both but there you go.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: These new books are significantly more expensive than the old ones (70 USD vs ~55) though.
They're also much bigger (about double the size) and, once again, contain full army lists for each side rather than just generic units or specific units. It's a flat upgrade.
They are only double the size because they both contain the full army list. So that's a pretty moot point. You don't need that content twice.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: They are only double the size because they both contain the full army list. So that's a pretty moot point. You don't need that content twice.
And the end result is still that you only need one army book to play HH as opposed to two. It's still a better option than the army lists being split into two books or having to carry about a book with all 18 Legions in it.
Broskis, army list splitting is pure personal preference, stop selling either way as better or worse.
This time it's two 350 page books, it could have been one 500 page book with no duplication, or 18 150 page books, most cost efficient if you only have 1 army. The only way to please everyone would be free online, and maybe not even then.
Sorry if this has already been answered, but 183 pages of chat is a lot to wade through.
Do we know if Blackshields/personal Legions are still a thing in this new HH? Would hate to have to repaint my entire collection, seeing as the 2 books don't seem to mention the 3rd option of Marines during the HH, it might indicate that they are no longer a thing.
As of right now, there is no option to play Blackshields, Armies of Dark Compliance, or Shattered Legions likely due to the fact they were army themes rather than Legion rules.
stonehorse wrote: Sorry if this has already been answered, but 183 pages of chat is a lot to wade through.
Do we know if Blackshields/personal Legions are still a thing in this new HH? Would hate to have to repaint my entire collection, seeing as the 2 books don't seem to mention the 3rd option of Marines during the HH, it might indicate that they are no longer a thing.
Right now - we don't know. They might be getting a PDF (like the announced "Legacies of the Age of Darkness") or their own book later on, but I don't think anything has been officially stated yet.
Gert wrote: As of right now, there is no option to play Blackshields, Armies of Dark Compliance, or Shattered Legions likely due to the fact they were army themes rather than Legion rules.
Those types of armies seem like something for future campaign books
ClockworkZion wrote: The rumors were $500USD+ and they were trying to squash that rumor. The studio team wasn't likely given the exact price, just a "under X" amount.
The moment they said "Under $300" a bunch of us guessed it would be $299.
Maybe they were ignorant of the actual price, maybe they weren't, but pricing something one dollar (or sometimes even 1 cent) under something is a very old trick.
ClockworkZion wrote: The rumors were $500USD+ and they were trying to squash that rumor. The studio team wasn't likely given the exact price, just a "under X" amount.
The moment they said "Under $300" a bunch of us guessed it would be $299.
Maybe they were ignorant of the actual price, maybe they weren't, but pricing something one dollar (or sometimes even 1 cent) under something is a very old trick.
Yeah, one I rather dislike and that I would think people would have caught onto by now...
Kinda sad because if it was in the $250 range I would have snapped up 2. But now? I'll have to rethink that.
ClockworkZion wrote: The rumors were $500USD+ and they were trying to squash that rumor. The studio team wasn't likely given the exact price, just a "under X" amount.
The moment they said "Under $300" a bunch of us guessed it would be $299.
Maybe they were ignorant of the actual price, maybe they weren't, but pricing something one dollar (or sometimes even 1 cent) under something is a very old trick.
Yeah, one I rather dislike and that I would think people would have caught onto by now...
Kinda sad because if it was in the $250 range I would have snapped up 2. But now? I'll have to rethink that.
eh, 300 bucks for the contents of the box is STILL a steal
ClockworkZion wrote: The rumors were $500USD+ and they were trying to squash that rumor. The studio team wasn't likely given the exact price, just a "under X" amount.
The moment they said "Under $300" a bunch of us guessed it would be $299.
Maybe they were ignorant of the actual price, maybe they weren't, but pricing something one dollar (or sometimes even 1 cent) under something is a very old trick.
I'm just happy GW doesn't slap a ninety-nine cent it on the end.
So looking at prices, just the 40 MkVI would $160USD so honestly even at $299 I'm going to likely stock up on a couple of these boxes just to save money on a good chunk of my legion. It's up in the air if I'll keep or sell the extra Spartans but it'll be a cheaper way to get a Legion up and running than getting all the kits separately.
ClockworkZion wrote: The rumors were $500USD+ and they were trying to squash that rumor. The studio team wasn't likely given the exact price, just a "under X" amount.
The moment they said "Under $300" a bunch of us guessed it would be $299.
Maybe they were ignorant of the actual price, maybe they weren't, but pricing something one dollar (or sometimes even 1 cent) under something is a very old trick.
Exactly. It's like if a restaurant has a poster boasting it's got one of the top 5 hygiene ratings in the district, you know for sure it wasn't 4th.
Another beautiful Dakka moment. They tout the box at under $300, which is 99% of the way to guaranteeing that the box will be $299 to anyone that has ever left their house or briefly glanced at a tv, box is confirmed at $299, Dakka has now been punched in the throat.
$299 is a good price in GW land, but it’s pretty damn expensive compared to almost every other non-GW miniature wargame out there. That said, it is still a good deal compared to some of the other big boxes that GW has tried to peddle recently.
JWBS wrote: Another beautiful Dakka moment. They tout the box at under $300, which is 99% of the way to guaranteeing that the box will be $299 to anyone that has ever left their house or briefly glanced at a tv, box is confirmed at $299, Dakka has now been punched in the throat.
You do realise that individual members of Dakka do no represent Dakka as a whole?
Australian prices are more fethed then my wildest hopes. $80 for a rhino get fethed.
Kratos is dead on arrival.
They're fething mad if they think they can shift 20 heavy weapons for $75. Special weapons.... maaaaybe, since you get like 60 of them.
Not surprised the unit profile books are so expensive, which is a shame. Quite shocked they're not more then $120.
Oh and sorry to any TSons players out there who need Ahirman. You have to pay like a 5th of what the BoP boxset was for a one sprue character.
When I saw the pricing come out for UK and the EU, I have to admit I got my hopes up that the US price would be about $250 for the box, $60 for the books, $110 for the Kratos, etc., but alas, should have known better when GW said it would be "less" than $300. Well they lived up to their word by a whole dollar. Also, making the Mk III and IV marines direct only is a kick in the nads to the independent stockists and certainly means no buy from me as I have forsworn buying anything from GW direct due to several factors.
I would like to give GW the benefit of the doubt on their pricing vs other markets and say some of the price difference is owed to the cost of shipping, but not sure a 32% markup vs. the current USD/Sterling pound exchange rate can be chalked up soley to higher shipping costs.
All and all, the pricing on everything along with the older armour Mk's being direct only has pretty much knocked my enthusiasm for this release down quite a bit. Likely going to keep my money in my pocket at this point, but I'm sure GW will be okay without my money. I do feel a bit bad for my FLGS though as knowing their econmics, I am sure they would have liked to have had my $300 to $500 next week.
Australian prices are more fethed then my wildest hopes. $80 for a rhino get fethed.
Spoiler:
Kratos is dead on arrival.
They're fething mad if they think they can shift 20 heavy weapons for $75. Special weapons.... maaaaybe, since you get like 60 of them.
Not surprised the unit profile books are so expensive, which is a shame. Quite shocked they're not more then $120.
Oh and sorry to any TSons players out there who need Ahirman. You have to pay like a 5th of what the BoP boxset was for a one sprue character.
A lot of that is listed as trade/direct, so I assume there's going to be little to no discount on those items.
This is a bit of a damper for me, the main box looks like decent value, but everything else is insane and quite off putting.
So it's 227 USD??? That's way cheaper than what I thought it was going to be.
How have you been here 6 years and not know about price bands. It's 299$
I don't know what that is. 299 is unfortunate.
But it's what gw dollar prices are. Using exchange ratios won't give you price(for one have you noticed prices don't fluctuate with exchange ratio changes?). You need to look at equilavent prices in uk value and then see what it costs in us. Or alternatively look at retail price list available at gw site.
Australian prices are more fethed then my wildest hopes. $80 for a rhino get fethed.
Kratos is dead on arrival.
They're fething mad if they think they can shift 20 heavy weapons for $75. Special weapons.... maaaaybe, since you get like 60 of them.
Not surprised the unit profile books are so expensive, which is a shame. Quite shocked they're not more then $120.
Oh and sorry to any TSons players out there who need Ahirman. You have to pay like a 5th of what the BoP boxset was for a one sprue character.
Yeah I assumed it'd be cheaper than the Sisters Rhino but way more than the current Loyalist and Chaos Rhinos.
*sigh*
So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
Marshal Loss wrote: So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
Yeah, but... monkeypox is an inflation loss leader and if you don't like it you shouldn't buy the toxic koalas.
I think that makes as much sense as any other explanation.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So how many points is contained within the big box? And how many points do people normally play in HH?
Basically trying to get an idea of how much someone would end up buying to get a "standard" army.
This would be good to know. I'd wager the new book comes with the 3 points brackets like aos/40k though.
the box looks to be around 1500 points that you can stretch to 2000+ depending on upgrades and weapons (if you buy the upgrade sets)
Standard game size is 2500/3000 points but this depends on the local community and if they play 1vs1 or not (I have seen multi player games more often than 1vs1 and those with 4-6k, also to give new players an easier start so they don't need to bring a full 3k army to play)
so 1,5-2 boxes +upgrade sets would give you a "standard" sized army
Marshal Loss wrote: So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
To be fair (as fair as you can be to the idiocy that is GW pricing) the regular Rhino is weirdly cheap in Australia, it's $50USD which would translate to ~$70AUD in regular real world exchange rates (not GW's senseless exchange rate) but it actually only costs $55AUD. So I wasn't expecting the Deimos to be less than the regular Rhino in Oz.
$78 dollars as a direct only item is still way to much, but it was never going to be less than a regular Rhino either.
The direct only is a killer, because that eliminates the 20% discount that is easy to get on everything else.
Marshal Loss wrote: So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
there is no regular Rhino any more but just the Razorback box that of course includes the Rhino
And some countries were excluded on the last regular price increase for the existing items, but this does not mean that upcoming boxes are excluded from this as well
so you happen to be in the exiting spot that the Razorback is "cheaper" than the Rhino because the later got the regular price increase while the other did not
so thank GW for not increasing the price back than, otherwise the Razorback would be more expensive than the Rhino for you too (/s)
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So how many points is contained within the big box? And how many points do people normally play in HH?
Basically trying to get an idea of how much someone would end up buying to get a "standard" army.
This would be good to know. I'd wager the new book comes with the 3 points brackets like aos/40k though.
the box looks to be around 1500 points that you can stretch to 2000+ depending on upgrades and weapons (if you buy the upgrade sets)
Standard game size is 2500/3000 points but this depends on the local community and if they play 1vs1 or not (I have seen multi player games more often than 1vs1 and those with 4-6k, also to give new players an easier start so they don't need to bring a full 3k army to play)
so 1,5-2 boxes +upgrade sets would give you a "standard" sized army
Okay, thanks, so even in plastic and with the boxed set as a starting point it's still a pretty expensive game to get into.
Marshal Loss wrote: So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
To be fair (as fair as you can be to the idiocy that is GW pricing) the regular Rhino is weirdly cheap in Australia, it's $50USD which would translate to ~$70AUD in regular real world exchange rates (not GW's senseless exchange rate) but it actually only costs $55AUD. So I wasn't expecting the Deimos to be less than the regular Rhino in Oz.
$78 dollars as a direct only item is still way to much, but it was never going to be less than a regular Rhino either.
The direct only is a killer, because that eliminates the 20% discount that is easy to get on everything else.
Out of curiosity I checked a few higher cost kits in Australia and it's even more crazy than I imagined. Not just expensive, but wildly inconsistent and unpredictable.
Okay, thanks, so even in plastic and with the boxed set as a starting point it's still a pretty expensive game to get into.
yeah, don't expect to get very far with the usual buy 1 starter box and split with a friend
more like both buy 1 box and split the 3rd
PS: but if you start fresh into 40k it is not much cheaper either and the 3rd party market offers more for 30k is there is much more not-Marine stuff out there that fits older armour schemes
as written above, Australia was not part of the last regular price increase, but now ones are sold with the new price
so old boxes have a different "conversion" from GBP to AUD than the new boxes (and some very old kits that did not saw a price hick more than once are really "cheap" compared, happend with € also in the past, but GW tries to avoid it)
for example, Sisters Battle Sanctum is £75/100€, Gorkanaut £80/105€
Marshal Loss wrote: So let me get this straight - the Deimos Rhino is cheaper than a regular Rhino in the UK and US, but in Australia we pay $23 more for a Deimos than a regular Rhino (a bit over 40% more)? And it's direct only so we can't get a FLGS discount? feth off GW. That's me out. Utterly absurd
To be fair (as fair as you can be to the idiocy that is GW pricing) the regular Rhino is weirdly cheap in Australia, it's $50USD which would translate to ~$70AUD in regular real world exchange rates (not GW's senseless exchange rate) but it actually only costs $55AUD. So I wasn't expecting the Deimos to be less than the regular Rhino in Oz.
$78 dollars as a direct only item is still way to much, but it was never going to be less than a regular Rhino either.
The direct only is a killer, because that eliminates the 20% discount that is easy to get on everything else.
That's a reasonable explanation as to why it wouldn't be cheaper than regular Rhinos here, but as you say, direct only is a killer. If core parts of the range like those weapon packs and Rhinos are going to be direct only going forward, that's a bridge too far for me unfortunately
The pricing was always going to be through the roof, but that's more a case of that just being GW's thing for around the past 12 years (there was a really nice decade around 2000-2010 where there were both good quality plastic minis and the pricing was reasonable, 10-20 minis for £10-£12 used to be standard with even deeper discounts in battleforces, rules were great too).
Nowadays, it's either you're putting in the serious coin for something like HH (where the ruleset at least seems to be a lot better than the very bloated 40k), or you can go for one of the more affordable alternatives like Firefight from Mantic which has free rules and army lists a month after release and a starter set equally as packed as HH for under half the price.
Either way, the gaming market is quite mature and there's options for everyone no matter their budget. If it's not working out then look at the wider wargaming world and see what else is out there.
I only play Necromunda and Blood Bowl from GW, to buy big armies I'd have to take house deposit-tier cash oout of savings (£500+) and that's not justifiable as an adult with other priorities/ expenses no matter how much I like it in theory. The big £250+ starter boxes that are being released recently are so far off my radar as a buyer it's better if I don't even look at them.
I've seen multiple people mention that the upcoming weapon packs are only intended for Mk6s, has there been any official statement on this either way? They haven't showed off sprue pictures yet so I suppose there's some room for ambiguity there.
The guns carried bolter-style at the hip I could otherwise see fitting 4s and 3s relatively easily, except those kits came with the left hand separate from the boltguns unlike the new 6s. Neither pattern has a simple straight seam at the wrist either (unlike the mk7) so a hand-swap to the moulded-on parts might be a bit annoying.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I've seen multiple people mention that the upcoming weapon packs are only intended for Mk6s, has there been any official statement on this either way? They haven't showed off sprue pictures yet so I suppose there's some room for ambiguity there.
The guns carried bolter-style at the hip I could otherwise see fitting 4s and 3s relatively easily, except those kits came with the left hand separate from the boltguns unlike the new 6s. Neither pattern has a simple straight seam at the wrist either (unlike the mk7) so a hand-swap to the moulded-on parts might be a bit annoying.
Yes, in the reveal stream they confirmed the weapons packs were designed for MkVI.
However, they said the special weapons should fit other plastic armour mks, with little to no work.
The heavy weapons will fit, but require more conversion work - this is probably mainly due to the differences in shoulder pads between mks.
OK, that's good to know. I expect the shoulder-fired heavies will come with separate Mk6 arms that might look a bit too conspicuous on Mk3s especially, but we'll see.
Okay, thanks, so even in plastic and with the boxed set as a starting point it's still a pretty expensive game to get into.
yeah, don't expect to get very far with the usual buy 1 starter box and split with a friend
more like both buy 1 box and split the 3rd
PS: but if you start fresh into 40k it is not much cheaper either and the 3rd party market offers more for 30k is there is much more not-Marine stuff out there that fits older armour schemes
Yeah, I wasn't thinking of splitting the box, but was hoping that 1 box to myself would give most of what was needed for a game, with any additional purchases just adding flavour and variety.
But it sounds like there'd be quite a bit more to buy to get it up to a typical game level, so probably not much change out of $1000AUD.
From book leaks iirc the game doesn't split into defined points levels the way 40k does (combat patrol/strike force/etc), which theoretically means you can play whatever points value you want (to be fair, technically also true for 40k even though they really want you to play at specific fixed points values), but one points table I saw from the book whuch was detailing things like FOC limits and LoW caps, etc. didn't start until 2000pts, which implies that to be the minimum points level for gameplay.
Okay, thanks, so even in plastic and with the boxed set as a starting point it's still a pretty expensive game to get into.
yeah, don't expect to get very far with the usual buy 1 starter box and split with a friend
more like both buy 1 box and split the 3rd
PS: but if you start fresh into 40k it is not much cheaper either and the 3rd party market offers more for 30k is there is much more not-Marine stuff out there that fits older armour schemes
Yeah, I wasn't thinking of splitting the box, but was hoping that 1 box to myself would give most of what was needed for a game, with any additional purchases just adding flavour and variety.
But it sounds like there'd be quite a bit more to buy to get it up to a typical game level, so probably not much change out of $1000AUD.
I don't see how this isn't quite a bit cheaper than a 40k starter setup.
JWBS wrote: I don't see how this isn't quite a bit cheaper than a 40k starter setup.
I don't think Skink is saying it isn't. Just that you need more to bring it to a typically playable level, i.e 3k point being heresy norm, vs 1.5-2k being 40k norm.
I wonder if there will be a SC / CP system for this. The rumours for the smaller starter sets don't seem to have panned out so far but I suppose there's still time, iirc much of that particular slate of rumours has turned out to be correct.
JWBS wrote: I wonder if there will be a SC / CP system for this. The rumours for the smaller starter sets don't seem to have panned out so far but I suppose there's still time, iirc much of that particular slate of rumours has turned out to be correct.
Start Collecting: Alpha Legion is just 20 copies of this model
CARTA GALACTICA: THE IMPERIUM OF MANKIND Map 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 29.00
SALAMANDERS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
RAVEN GUARD LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
IRON HANDS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
ULTRAMARINES LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
IMPERIAL FISTS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
SPACE WOLVES LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
DARK ANGELS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
BLOOD ANGELS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
THOUSAND SONS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
IRON WARRIORS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
NIGHT LORDS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
WORD BEARERS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
ALPHA LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
DEATH GUARD LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
SONS OF HORUS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
WORLD EATERS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
WHITE SCARS LEGION TRANSFER SHEET Transfer Sheet 04-Jun-22 18-Jun-22 35.00
JWBS wrote: I wonder if there will be a SC / CP system for this. The rumours for the smaller starter sets don't seem to have panned out so far but I suppose there's still time, iirc much of that particular slate of rumours has turned out to be correct.
Start Collecting: Alpha Legion is just 20 copies of this model
JWBS wrote: I don't see how this isn't quite a bit cheaper than a 40k starter setup.
I don't think Skink is saying it isn't. Just that you need more to bring it to a typically playable level, i.e 3k point being heresy norm, vs 1.5-2k being 40k norm.
Is there a reason 3k is the norm? Are the points for a marine comparable to the points for one in 40k for example? Knowing how GW designs stuff and their general pointing structure from 7th, 3k feels like a "community likes to field al of the toys so play bigger than expected" army than one by rules intent.
Not entirely sure 3k is the norm. I thought a lot of people played 2500.
But in any case, I think the uplift on say 2k points (or 1850, 1500, whatever) is that people want to play with Primarchs. And running around with 400-500 etc point models in such games is a bit warped. (Yes, looking at you Daemon Primarchs in a regular 40k game.)
JWBS wrote: I don't see how this isn't quite a bit cheaper than a 40k starter setup.
I don't think Skink is saying it isn't. Just that you need more to bring it to a typically playable level, i.e 3k point being heresy norm, vs 1.5-2k being 40k norm.
Is there a reason 3k is the norm? Are the points for a marine comparable to the points for one in 40k for example? Knowing how GW designs stuff and their general pointing structure from 7th, 3k feels like a "community likes to field al of the toys so play bigger than expected" army than one by rules intent.
I don't play wargames but looking at the HH box, which is apparently 2k points, I can only imagine that moving 6k points around a table (triple what's in the box), under the HH rules (less streamlined than 40k??) is going to be a not insignificant undertaking in terms of time. 3kvs3k must take several hours.
About 2 hours if both players understand the game.
And yes the reason you see a lot of 2.5-3k games is that 2.5k+ is where LoW and Primarchs come into play. The game is perfectly serviceable at smaller point levels, just maybe not 500.
JWBS wrote: I wonder if there will be a SC / CP system for this. The rumours for the smaller starter sets don't seem to have panned out so far but I suppose there's still time, iirc much of that particular slate of rumours has turned out to be correct.
Not exactly, the initial wave of rumors about this mostly turned out to be wrong/inconclusive thus far (not only are there no smaller starter sets, but the big box is *not* named anything to do with "Heta-Gladius" as the rumors suggested). That slate of rumors more recently was getting reposted alongside a new wave of rumors which included more details about individual releases - the new wave is what has turned out to be mostly true, but I don't know that they have anything to do with the old wave (not clear that they come from the same source, etc.).
Is there a reason 3k is the norm? Are the points for a marine comparable to the points for one in 40k for example? Knowing how GW designs stuff and their general pointing structure from 7th, 3k feels like a "community likes to field al of the toys so play bigger than expected" army than one by rules intent.
Yes, its because forces in the 30k setting are organized differently and in order to reflect that on the tabletop you need more points to accommodate everything. Although 30k marines are individually cheaper points wise than 40k marines, the basic 30k troops unit is a brick of 10-20 marines rather than a brick of 5-10, and when you're fielding those 10-20 man bricks you are mostly only getting bolters, things like plasma guns and heavy bolters require their own dedicated units (or really expensive veteran tactical squads that can get special/heavy weapons). You can easily drop 1000 pts just filling out your basic compulsory requirements before you even start adding special/heavy weapons or get to field terminators, dreadnoughts, vehicles, or anything else. Then there are certain units, things like Spartans (which are a heavy support choice in 30k) or Leviathan Dreads which come in at 400-500 points each, which is a pretty big chunk of your points budget at 2k points, let alone a Primarch which is another 400-500+ points easy (some of which cannot legally be fielded in armies of 2k points). Then there are all the lords of war like Legion Fellblades which can't be legally fielded below 2500+ points, etc. And then there are a number of Rites of War which you would be hard pressed to meet the requirements of at anything below 2500pts, etc. 3k basically became the norm because thats what the listbuilding restrictions and unit designs basically required in order for players to even be able to use half of the units and rules printed for the game, otherwise all the cool gak that makes HH what it is gets thrown out the window and you're basically playing marines-only 40k instead.
Tyel wrote: Not entirely sure 3k is the norm. I thought a lot of people played 2500.
But in any case, I think the uplift on say 2k points (or 1850, 1500, whatever) is that people want to play with Primarchs. And running around with 400-500 etc point models in such games is a bit warped. (Yes, looking at you Daemon Primarchs in a regular 40k game.)
3k is the norm, 2.5k was the old standard when most of the factions didn't have rules for their own primarchs or special units, rites of war, etc. but as more people got toys more people wanted to use them.
The minimum for a CAD in 30k is an HQ and 2 Troops, and it's nowhere near 1k points to fill that out.
There are also very few ROW that don't operate well under 2.5k and with the changes made with 2.0 that will likely be even more the case.
JWBS wrote: I don't play wargames but looking at the HH box, which is apparently 2k points, I can only imagine that moving 6k points around a table (triple what's in the box), under the HH rules (less streamlined than 40k??) is going to be a not insignificant undertaking in terms of time. 3kvs3k must take several hours.
40k also takes several hours....
it is hard to say that 40k is more streamlined, less dense, simple core rules but also detailed on a per model level
30k has more core rules and is more detailed, but also less bloat overall, and plays faster
but 30k is also more a gentleman's game, and people like it if a game takes 4-5 hours (kind of similar to some historical games like Black Powder, were you play your 3vs3 for the whole day and people see this as an advantage)
kodos wrote: but 30k is also more a gentleman's game, and people like it if a game takes 4-5 hours (kind of similar to some historical games like Black Powder, were you play your 3vs3 for the whole day and people see this as an advantage)
but no one here is carrying his stuff to an HH meetup and than complains that the game is taking too long
they rather complain if it is over in 2 hours because it was not worth driving around for such a small game
kodos wrote: but 30k is also more a gentleman's game, and people like it if a game takes 4-5 hours (kind of similar to some historical games like Black Powder, were you play your 3vs3 for the whole day and people see this as an advantage)
I can guarantee it is not.
I will admit I like quicker games, so maybe I'm not going to like HH. If I have a whole afternoon to play games, I'd rather play 2 short games than 1 game that takes the entire afternoon.
Did no one in the community paint the up the boxed set in Salamander colours or did they just forget to include the picture?
I wondered about that, too.
It occurred to me that the Spartan might be from that army and for one reason or another is the only thing they have a picture of. In which case I'm not too sad not to see an army picture even though that's literally why I look at the legion articles in the first place. That tank is painted very, very, and I mean very. So, so very. I think I'd have to put on shades before looking at an entire army like that.
kodos wrote: but 30k is also more a gentleman's game, and people like it if a game takes 4-5 hours (kind of similar to some historical games like Black Powder, were you play your 3vs3 for the whole day and people see this as an advantage)
I can guarantee it is not.
I'm backing up Gert on this one. I love the game and its lore. Some of the players I've met have been awesome. But a lot of the HH crowd is just as childish and immature as the rest of the hobby, and in a few niche cases they're worse.
As for the time, when I last played HH (2019) most of my 2.5K games usually took around 2.5 hours including list building on the fly and set up/take down. It's really not that bad at all. With USRs being a thing, the game becomes a lot easier to learn than the mess that is currently 40K 9E with it's rules spread across 500 pages of paper in 30 different books and 14+ online only publications. Looks like 2E HH is going to be the BRB and one of the two books for marines (probably a different set of books for the other non-marine factions) and that's it.
Making a significant portion of the releases direct-only seems like a kick in the teeth to both customers and independent retaillers alike.
It's like they haven't got a coherent pricing strategy for the Heresy, the launch box price has been mostly praised, but the price for everything else seems way too high, one way or another.
Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
How? Currently, you can buy 10 resin versions of a single Special Weapon from FW for £15.50. It's £26 for 6x10 of each Special Weapon for the new boxes.
Good view of the dreadnought upgrades there idk if that has been seen before. It doesn't look all that great tbh, details seems very soft. FW dreads still a lot better in this regard.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Making a significant portion of the releases direct-only seems like a kick in the teeth to both customers and independent retaillers alike.
It's like they haven't got a coherent pricing strategy for the Heresy, the launch box price has been mostly praised, but the price for everything else seems way too high, one way or another.
Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
Why let facts get in the way of hating GW? I've seen the price complaint about the Special and Heavy weapons repeated a few times in places and every time people either ingore the number of parts in the kit or refuse to believe the current FW prices are true. It's very weird.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Making a significant portion of the releases direct-only seems like a kick in the teeth to both customers and independent retaillers alike.
It's like they haven't got a coherent pricing strategy for the Heresy, the launch box price has been mostly praised, but the price for everything else seems way too high, one way or another.
Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
How? Currently, you can buy 10 resin versions of a single Special Weapon from FW for £15.50. It's £26 for 6x10 of each Special Weapon for the new boxes.
Sorry, I was looking at the missile launchers/heavy bolters set.
Even then it's still a better price as the Heavy Weapon kits are £16.50 per 5 and many have the annoying cables or ammo feeds you need to heat up and bend into shape. £26 for 4 times the weapons.
Weirdly, the Graviton Guns are cheaper than every other Special Weapon kit.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Making a significant portion of the releases direct-only seems like a kick in the teeth to both customers and independent retaillers alike.
It's like they haven't got a coherent pricing strategy for the Heresy, the launch box price has been mostly praised, but the price for everything else seems way too high, one way or another.
Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
We will have to wait and see. So far my LGS has taken in nearly 7,000 USD in preorders for this. And this comes from a store that normally sells around 1,800 USD a month in models. The price doesn't seem to be affecting sales so far...at least in our neck of the woods.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Making a significant portion of the releases direct-only seems like a kick in the teeth to both customers and independent retaillers alike.
It's like they haven't got a coherent pricing strategy for the Heresy, the launch box price has been mostly praised, but the price for everything else seems way too high, one way or another.
Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
How? Currently, you can buy 10 resin versions of a single Special Weapon from FW for £15.50. It's £26 for 6x10 of each Special Weapon for the new boxes.
Sorry, I was looking at the missile launchers/heavy bolters set.
Check again.
Forgeworld - 5 Heavy Bolters for £16.50. That of course is £3.30 each.
Plastic kit - 10 Heavy Bolters and 10 Missile Launchers for £26.00. Or £1.30 each.
Quadruple the weapons, for less than 150% of the existing price for the kit, and a little under 1/3rd of the per item price.. So not even remotely in the ballpark of the same price.
Good view of the dreadnought upgrades there idk if that has been seen before. It doesn't look all that great tbh, details seems very soft. FW dreads still a lot better in this regard.
I'm afraid I don't know which details you're referring to, it looks pretty good to me, nothing's immediately coming across as badly rendered.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Look at the boxes of special weapons: do they really have to charge as much as they would have done for hand-cast resin equivalents? I can't help but feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot here.
How? Currently, you can buy 10 resin versions of a single Special Weapon from FW for £15.50. It's £26 for 6x10 of each Special Weapon for the new boxes.
Sorry, I was looking at the missile launchers/heavy bolters set.
Check again.
Forgeworld - 5 Heavy Bolters for £16.50. That of course is £3.30 each.
Plastic kit - 10 Heavy Bolters and 10 Missile Launchers for £26.00. Or £1.30 each.
Quadruple the weapons, for less than 150% of the existing price for the kit, and a little under 1/3rd of the per item price.. So not even remotely in the ballpark of the same price.
Yeah, it's my bad for wording my post so poorly.
The point which I was trying to make (and failing), was that ten plastic weapons for £26 seems like ballpark resin prices to me.
That's just my perception of course, I'm sure there are plenty of people just like you who are happy to pay £26 for ten HIPs heavy weapons.
Did I miss the part where it was explained why some of the new releases are direct-only?
You're still not getting it though, it's not £26 for 10 HBs or 10 ML. It's £26 for 10 of each. And even if you were only wanting 10 HBs it's still cheaper than the resin ones from FW.
Gert wrote: You're still not getting it though, it's not £26 for 10 HBs or 10 ML. It's £26 for 10 of each. And even if you were only wanting 10 HBs it's still cheaper than the resin ones from FW.
Yes mate, I must be having a bad day
Twenty plastic weapons for £26 is still, for me, not a good price.
Twenty plastic weapons for £26 is still, for me, not a good price.
Compared to what though? I just want to know your line of thinking because you've said it makes you think of resin prices and you've been shown it's vastly cheaper.
Did no one in the community paint the up the boxed set in Salamander colours or did they just forget to include the picture?
The reason is hilarious. Sallies were assigned to some french youtuber and the moron painted them all kawasaki green with his channel logo on every figure. It's photoshopped off of the Spartan but they couldn't be arsed for a whole army shot.
Twenty plastic weapons for £26 is still, for me, not a good price.
Compared to what though? I just want to know your line of thinking because you've said it makes you think of resin prices and you've been shown it's vastly cheaper.
I could switch it back and ask you why you think that £26 for 20 plastic weapons is fair?
I guess it's my perception of value regarding the material used (plastic being much cheaper in the long term) and the fact that they are literally only an optional part of a model, rather than a model themselves. I freely admit that perception of value isn't always based on logic.
I mean, a Necromunda gang is only slightly more expensive at £28?
Ultimately I was more concerned with why some of the new releases are direct only, I wish I'd left out the resin/HIPs comparison now
Thats a quick way to burn a relationship with GW I imagine, doubt he's going to continue to get influencer perks or preview materials going forward after that.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I could switch it back and ask you why you think that £26 for 20 plastic weapons is fair?
Because it's vastly cheaper than it was and it's 9/10 times going to be a one-time purchase per army. I'll be getting one of the SW packs because that's all I'll need.
Ultimately I was more concerned with why some of the new releases are direct only, I wish I'd left out the resin/HIPs comparison now
Which releases weren't going to partner stores? There's a lot of dross in this thread so I'd appreciate being enlightened.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I could switch it back and ask you why you think that £26 for 20 plastic weapons is fair?
Because it's vastly cheaper than it was and it's 9/10 times going to be a one-time purchase per army. I'll be getting one of the SW packs because that's all I'll need.
Ultimately I was more concerned with why some of the new releases are direct only, I wish I'd left out the resin/HIPs comparison now
Which releases weren't going to partner stores? There's a lot of dross in this thread so I'd appreciate being enlightened.
Agreed about the dross.
Page 183, it looks like the Kratos, Rhino, both weapon boxes, Ahriman. They are all described as "trade/direct", which seems to mean direct only.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I could switch it back and ask you why you think that £26 for 20 plastic weapons is fair?
Because it's vastly cheaper than it was and it's 9/10 times going to be a one-time purchase per army. I'll be getting one of the SW packs because that's all I'll need.
Ultimately I was more concerned with why some of the new releases are direct only, I wish I'd left out the resin/HIPs comparison now
Which releases weren't going to partner stores? There's a lot of dross in this thread so I'd appreciate being enlightened.
Agreed about the dross.
Page 183, it looks like the Kratos, Rhino, both weapon boxes, Ahriman. They are all described as "trade/direct", which seems to mean direct only.
I hope not though, for obvious reasons.
That's the Australian order sheet. In the UK/EU it seems only the Mk3/Mk4 repacks, transfers and dice are direct only *knocks on wood*
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I could switch it back and ask you why you think that £26 for 20 plastic weapons is fair?
Because it's vastly cheaper than it was and it's 9/10 times going to be a one-time purchase per army. I'll be getting one of the SW packs because that's all I'll need.
Ultimately I was more concerned with why some of the new releases are direct only, I wish I'd left out the resin/HIPs comparison now
Which releases weren't going to partner stores? There's a lot of dross in this thread so I'd appreciate being enlightened.
Agreed about the dross.
Page 183, it looks like the Kratos, Rhino, both weapon boxes, Ahriman. They are all described as "trade/direct", which seems to mean direct only.
I hope not though, for obvious reasons.
That's the Australian order sheet. In the UK/EU it seems only the Mk3/Mk4 repacks, transfers and dice are direct only *knocks on wood*
Twenty plastic weapons for £26 is still, for me, not a good price.
Compared to what though? I just want to know your line of thinking because you've said it makes you think of resin prices and you've been shown it's vastly cheaper.
I could switch it back and ask you why you think that £26 for 20 plastic weapons is fair?
I guess it's my perception of value regarding the material used (plastic being much cheaper in the long term) and the fact that they are literally only an optional part of a model, rather than a model themselves. I freely admit that perception of value isn't always based on logic.
Ok, let's compare plastic to plastic. Funnily enough, two devastator boxes cost about the same as new 20 SM box plus weapon upgrade. One gives you 10 bodies with 5x4 heavy weapons, the other 20 bodies with 2/3x10 heavies - but you control which ones you get and seeing most legions have one preferred weapon anyway, this is much better deal. You might argue the deal is still not good enough, but it's vastly better than what you get on 40K side. 30K SM costs much less per mini, new Rhino is cheaper than 40K one (and before someone says BUT RAZORBACK, compare SoB Rhino to see how good deal HH box is), really, I have no idea why GW went so hard into discounts now, were sales failing after last round of price raises? Especially for such dying game, if more than 5% of 'HH' models from this wave will be bought by Heresy players instead of 40KSM and SoB armies (especially heavy flamer/melta pack will be hit with Sisters) I will be shocked...
I really like this bit: "Legion Veterans, Terminators of all flavours, and certain Legion-specific Elites now sport two Wounds to represent their robustness in the face of withering fire." It's classic "how to admit beyond idiotic, game balance shattering, stupid decision to give squats in 40K two wounds because tiny minority of players hating primaris were screeching they dared to have better statline somehow got to rules writer without actually admitting so but making it so plain it's beyond obvious"
Really, they should just give both kinds of squats back 1W, with only primaris and veterans having 2W, roll back stupid damage inflation, presto, 40K is fixed and you will start seeing vehicles and 'weaker' armies back on table again...
I really like this bit: "Legion Veterans, Terminators of all flavours, and certain Legion-specific Elites now sport two Wounds to represent their robustness in the face of withering fire." It's classic "how to admit beyond idiotic, game balance shattering, stupid decision to give squats in 40K two wounds because tiny minority of players hating primaris were screeching they dared to have better statline somehow got to rules writer without actually admitting so but making it so plain it's beyond obvious"
Really, they should just give both kinds of squats back 1W, with only primaris and veterans having 2W, roll back stupid damage inflation, presto, 40K is fixed and you will start seeing vehicles and 'weaker' armies back on table again...
40k and Horus Heresy don't share the same ruleset. Unless there is some Horus Heresy official Squats army list with 2-wound models.
Irbis wrote: It's classic "how to admit beyond idiotic, game balance shattering, stupid decision to give squats in 40K two wounds because tiny minority of players hating primaris were screeching they dared to have better statline somehow got to rules writer without actually admitting so but making it so plain it's beyond obvious"
This is the Horus Heresy thread. It has nothing to do with what's happening in 40k, so what are you going on about?
I was a little bit surprised that the Sicaran and Contemptor kits aren't part of the preorder for this week. Any ideas as to how long it will take for them to get released?
I think there's just something irksome about high prices for a bunch of weapons. Sure, Forgeworld may have previously demanded a kidney - but still.
With other things you can imagine you are paying for design, marketing, just the whole uniqueness of the model being good. Whereas say 10 identical autocannons? Its hard not to feel I'm paying for anything but the plastic, which cost pennies.
I think its a fair point that you can just buy a couple of boxes and then equip a large number of Marines if that's what you want to do (assuming you use all the weapons in the box) - so the overall cost isn't that bad. But still.
Togusa wrote: I was a little bit surprised that the Sicaran and Contemptor kits aren't part of the preorder for this week. Any ideas as to how long it will take for them to get released?
I’m expecting them around this time next month. Hypothesis is that for major releases (new game, edition, strongly updated range). GW tie it into waves based on known Average Transaction Value. Benefit to them is by sticking to ATV, they get double Now Shiny Must Buy Now sales, where if they just dumped everything, all at once, then folk wouldn’t be able to but everything they’ve convinced themselves they want, and won’t necessarily be back for the rest, due to the weekly released schedule.
Togusa wrote: I was a little bit surprised that the Sicaran and Contemptor kits aren't part of the preorder for this week. Any ideas as to how long it will take for them to get released?
I’m expecting them around this time next month. Hypothesis is that for major releases (new game, edition, strongly updated range). GW tie it into waves based on known Average Transaction Value. Benefit to them is by sticking to ATV, they get double Now Shiny Must Buy Now sales, where if they just dumped everything, all at once, then folk wouldn’t be able to but everything they’ve convinced themselves they want, and won’t necessarily be back for the rest, due to the weekly released schedule.
Oh gosh, another useless 40k like rule...
So if a Salamander player fights against my army, and especially if he plays infantry heavy like usual, he will benefit from... nothing. He would simply play with no special rules. Except yeah maybe on his rhinos The same happened to the IW. Why couldn't they just keep the good old rules that were working ? Why do they have to put situational rules like that ?
What was wrong with a better ld and better flamers ?
Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
Oh gosh, another useless 40k like rule...
So if a Salamander player fights against my army, and especially if he plays infantry heavy like usual, he will benefit from... nothing. He would simply play with no special rules. Except yeah maybe on his rhinos The same happened to the IW. Why couldn't they just keep the good old rules that were working ? Why do they have to put situational rules like that ?
What was wrong with a better ld and better flamers ?
I get where you're coming from. They do still have the the better flamers and they can technically still get the immunity to fear from a warlord trait, but they lost the rock solid leadership. So now you have a force that allegedly is so resolute to the point that they're suicidal, yet their tactical marines have leadership 7 and will still run like any other army...
Also, how have GW still not realized that flamers are garbage in a game where 95% of your opponents are power armoured? You want us to take them, give them breaching or something.
Midnightdeathblade wrote:Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
Oh gosh, another useless 40k like rule...
So if a Salamander player fights against my army, and especially if he plays infantry heavy like usual, he will benefit from... nothing. He would simply play with no special rules. Except yeah maybe on his rhinos The same happened to the IW. Why couldn't they just keep the good old rules that were working ? Why do they have to put situational rules like that ?
What was wrong with a better ld and better flamers ?
I get where you're coming from. They do still have the the better flamers and they can technically still get the immunity to fear from a warlord trait, but they lost the rock solid leadership. So now you have a force that allegedly is so resolute to the point that they're suicidal, yet their tactical marines have leadership 7 and will still run like any other army...
Also, how have GW still not realized that flamers are garbage in a game where 95% of your opponents are power armoured? You want us to take them, give them breaching or something.
Yeah, the flamer thing is irritating. I don't think it would be too difficult to pump up their chosen weapons. But the leadership thing is a kick in the junk...resolute warriors my ass
kodos wrote: He is salty that some Marines in 30k get 2 Wounds before CSM get them in 40k
Yeah, nah, I don't think that's it. He talked an awful lot about Squats. And not at all about Chaos Marines.
Pretty sure he was just repeatedly mis-spelling "squads".
I think the use of squats was a derogatory reference to firstborn marines, not taking into account that Votann are a thing now to make it more confusing.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak when you compare it to things like -1 to be wounded in the first round of combat or a flat +1 initiative when you assault. Those have universal application except for units you don't want in combat. What if you're salamanders and you fight an army focused almost entirely on melee? Your rule is pretty much worthless.
The IWND is only for multi wound models, which will be nice for dreads.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak when you compare it to things like -1 to be wounded in the first round of combat or a flat +1 initiative when you assault. Those have universal application except for units you don't want in combat. What if you're salamanders and you fight an army focused almost entirely on melee? Your rule is pretty much worthless.
The IWND is only for multi wound models, which will be nice for dreads.
Should make a terminator heavy army pretty fun as well, since they're 2W now.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak when you compare it to things like -1 to be wounded in the first round of combat or a flat +1 initiative when you assault. Those have universal application except for units you don't want in combat. What if you're salamanders and you fight an army focused almost entirely on melee? Your rule is pretty much worthless.
The IWND is only for multi wound models, which will be nice for dreads.
Should make a terminator heavy army pretty fun as well, since they're 2W now.
IWND is pretty bad on squads of troops. Once a model is reduced to zero wounds you remove it from the table, so no IWND roll. And wounds are allocated incrementally to wounded models.
Asked my FLGS to get me the big box, the books, the special weapons, and the heavy weapons. Don’t care about that tank.
I play at HH at Adepticon, and I can’t wait for the new rules. Reactions will take a bit to get used to, but my Imperial Fists and Sons of Horus will be grateful for the new recruits!
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak when you compare it to things like -1 to be wounded in the first round of combat or a flat +1 initiative when you assault. Those have universal application except for units you don't want in combat. What if you're salamanders and you fight an army focused almost entirely on melee? Your rule is pretty much worthless.
The IWND is only for multi wound models, which will be nice for dreads.
Should make a terminator heavy army pretty fun as well, since they're 2W now.
IWND is pretty bad on squads of troops. Once a model is reduced to zero wounds you remove it from the table, so no IWND roll. And wounds are allocated incrementally to wounded models.
Wounded models in range and LoS, so you can do some weird juggling with LoS (and sometimes range) to spread damage around your squad and really make use of it.
Rules that encourage extremely weird gamey behavior are good, right?
Yknow.
For a along time i was saying that what Horus Heresy needed was new rules and plastic miniatures as a shot in the arm
I find it funny that alot of HH players i knew pooppeed that and got mad.
Tunrs out i was right, new plastic was exactly what the game needed and better rules.
Tyel wrote: I think there's just something irksome about high prices for a bunch of weapons. Sure, Forgeworld may have previously demanded a kidney - but still.
With other things you can imagine you are paying for design, marketing, just the whole uniqueness of the model being good. Whereas say 10 identical autocannons? Its hard not to feel I'm paying for anything but the plastic, which cost pennies.
I think its a fair point that you can just buy a couple of boxes and then equip a large number of Marines if that's what you want to do (assuming you use all the weapons in the box) - so the overall cost isn't that bad. But still.
I agree with that. There's very little effort on GW's part to make those weapons, so it can feel like a bit of a rip off to be paying how ever many dollars or pounds per piece.
I'd say my main gripe is just with the cost of the game as a whole. I don't really judge the prices of models based on how much a single model (or in this case a single weapon) costs, I'm looking at how much it costs to play a typical game.
Having Australian pricing and a lot of things as direct sales makes it worse. If you buy a big boxed set, a single book (loyalist or traitor), 2 rhinos, a Kratos, and the weapons upgrade sets.... that's ~$1250AUD full retail, and because much of it is direct only even buying from discounters you're still looking at ~$1100AUD.
If that's the sort of expected investment to get into the game, I'd kind of hope the heavy weapons could be somewhat subsidised by everything else. Ya know, kind of like buying a car and they throw in the floor mats for free, only a fool would think they're actually getting floor mats for free, they're subsidised by the cost of the car itself.
Did no one in the community paint the up the boxed set in Salamander colours or did they just forget to include the picture?
The reason is hilarious. Sallies were assigned to some french youtuber and the moron painted them all kawasaki green with his channel logo on every figure. It's photoshopped off of the Spartan but they couldn't be arsed for a whole army shot.
Also I think third party resin bases.
That's funny, who is the youtuber? Are there more pics somewhere?
The downside of getting the community to paint these models is definitely the mixed bag of quality, but I kind of like seeing models that aren't simply painted in the typical GW studio style.
I'm surprised GW let the community painters use products that are in direct competition to those that GW sell at all. I guess putting your channel logo on the models was a step too far, lol.
Sure, but if they'd used in-house painters, they wouldn't have gotten as much cheap ad coverage, since most people who got one of those commissions made videos about them.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Sure, but if they'd used in-house painters, they wouldn't have gotten as much cheap ad coverage, since most people who got one of those commissions made videos about them.
That's the important part of it, indeed. Having armies at GW is nice and all, but not really important in the grand scheme. Having loads of buzz about them is the whole idea.
he proably figured they'd be forced to display it and "by using my symbol I'll get free advertising everything they do this!"
course GW shoulda just assigned in house painters for this, it woulda avoided a number of problems
I dunno. I mean it's a symbol not a name and means nothing to me. I can't search it, so I'll never find the site based on some heraldry on models. If I did recognize, then I must already be a fan.
I'd say rather than free advertising he's just signing his work, cause as advertising goes a meaningless logo doesn't do much.
he proably figured they'd be forced to display it and "by using my symbol I'll get free advertising everything they do this!"
course GW shoulda just assigned in house painters for this, it woulda avoided a number of problems
I dunno. I mean it's a symbol not a name and means nothing to me. I can't search it, so I'll never find the site based on some heraldry on models. If I did recognize, then I must already be a fan.
I'd say rather than free advertising he's just signing his work, cause as advertising goes a meaningless logo doesn't do much.
It is a name, it's just illegibly tiny. I think it says French Wargame Studio. The play might have worked if people could see the Spartan sized one.
So it's 227 USD??? That's way cheaper than what I thought it was going to be.
How have you been here 6 years and not know about price bands. It's 299$
I don't know what that is. 299 is unfortunate.
But it's what gw dollar prices are. Using exchange ratios won't give you price(for one have you noticed prices don't fluctuate with exchange ratio changes?). You need to look at equilavent prices in uk value and then see what it costs in us. Or alternatively look at retail price list available at gw site.
Yup gotta love 'Regional Pricing" lol.
Fun fact in Canada it was cheaper to buy Forgeworld ( with free shipping at $250 cad) then retail GW in Canada. Same with our aussie friends. It's one of the reasons GW eventually did away with FW pricing and went regional pricing on FW. It was good times getting a 3000 point Elysian army for cheaper then a plastic Catachan or Cadian army and those where the days when they sold 20 man squads of guard. Also a few times the Canadian Dollar was higher then the Us dollar it was a massive deal to just direct order from the US to Canada, they did away with that also.... wonder why?....
With the aussie prices I can't imagine the Cad prices will be much better so "Uncle Ho" will still do just fine in the end.
Really nice chap, and the Salamanders looked great in person
I found some pics of them in one of his live streams, the models look pretty good, the photo of the Spartan doesn't really do justice to the quality, they're one of the better painted boxed sets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agamemnon2 wrote: Sure, but if they'd used in-house painters, they wouldn't have gotten as much cheap ad coverage, since most people who got one of those commissions made videos about them.
Also it would have cost them a huge amount to get them painted in house for no additional publicity. I don't know how long it takes GW to paint their models, but I can't imagine it's less than an hour per model, probably more like two, multiply that by the number of models in the boxed set and then multiply it by 18, that's a lot of man hours.
The finished Model is nice, but why is she using Black Templar Contrast on an Abaddon Black basecoat?
Doesn't make any sense, does it?
I've had a feeling that someone in charge at GW has told the painters to use at least one Contrast paint in each tutorial, it would explain some of the odd choices.
The finished Model is nice, but why is she using Black Templar Contrast on an Abaddon Black basecoat?
Doesn't make any sense, does it?
I've had a feeling that someone in charge at GW has told the painters to use at least one Contrast paint in each tutorial, it would explain some of the odd choices.
GW: "Why do in one step what can be done in 3, using 3 different products".
For anyone painting black or dark models, I've found Vallejo's black spray a really good match for Vallejo Model Color Black (70.950), I've been using it for my Night's Watch models and I can touch up spots I missed with the black spray without having to recoat the entire model in black.
Oh gosh, another useless 40k like rule...
So if a Salamander player fights against my army, and especially if he plays infantry heavy like usual, he will benefit from... nothing. He would simply play with no special rules. Except yeah maybe on his rhinos The same happened to the IW. Why couldn't they just keep the good old rules that were working ? Why do they have to put situational rules like that ?
What was wrong with a better ld and better flamers ?
I mean the IW rules before weren't great either IMO - i mean one of the rules was that your opponent gets to choose the game length?!
The finished Model is nice, but why is she using Black Templar Contrast on an Abaddon Black basecoat?
Doesn't make any sense, does it?
I've had a feeling that someone in charge at GW has told the painters to use at least one Contrast paint in each tutorial, it would explain some of the odd choices.
GW: "Why do in one step what can be done in 3, using 3 different products".
For anyone painting black or dark models, I've found Vallejo's black spray a really good match for Vallejo Model Color Black (70.950), I've been using it for my Night's Watch models and I can touch up spots I missed with the black spray without having to recoat the entire model in black.
Thanks for the tip, I've got plenty of Raven Guard & Black Legion in the painting queue
Also it would have cost them a huge amount to get them painted in house for no additional publicity. I don't know how long it takes GW to paint their models, but I can't imagine it's less than an hour per model, probably more like two, multiply that by the number of models in the boxed set and then multiply it by 18, that's a lot of man hours.
It's a lot longer than an hour per model, even basic troops. This is evidenced by the videos produced by studio painters where they document the process used for specific paint jobs. Also I'd add that one major reason for farming the job out to community people was so that they'd have the armies painted at all. They wouldn't have, if they'd been studio painted. Whilst almost every army eventually gets a studio version (if you include FW, eg there's no GW Aplha Legion army per say, but there is some sort of FWAL army, etc), this is over the span of several years as codices are released. What they don't do is paint every model release in every possible chapter scheme upon release, even when it's a small squad (eg when Primaris Eliminators were released, we didn't see the product painted in 20+ schemes, we got UM and a coupe of alternates, and then they're gradually painted up in specific chapter colours for each codex as the books are produced, at leat this is how it seems to me anyway). Had they not done it this community way with the HH box, we just wouldn't have seen all 18 legions.
(Edit - I should add there's a difference between the box art and the army paint jobs in terms of complexity and time taken, but the simpler version doesn't reduce time by orders of magnitude).
Billicus wrote: Yeah that did stick out as a weird thing to do. Otherwise it's pretty by-the-numbers.
If you watched the video, you would have caught that it was used as a recess shade.
I have a hard time believing that it achieves anything. They paint Abaddon Black over the Chaos Black spray coat. That should make the black as dark as it's going to get already. What's filling the recesses in with Black Templar going to achieve? I don't think it's actually darker than Abaddon Black and for all Contrast paints are rich in pigment, that should really not be a concern on this particular basecoat. It's just weird (outside of advertising and selling another paint).
Billicus wrote: Yeah that did stick out as a weird thing to do. Otherwise it's pretty by-the-numbers.
If you watched the video, you would have caught that it was used as a recess shade.
Before you snark somebody you should understand that shading black with black is utterly pointless.
To clarify, shading pure black on to a pure black painted model makes no sense. Would be absolutely fine for other blacks tho (AK Uniform Black, AK Rubber Black, Citadel Corvus Black etc)
Billicus wrote: Yeah that did stick out as a weird thing to do. Otherwise it's pretty by-the-numbers.
If you watched the video, you would have caught that it was used as a recess shade.
Before you snark somebody you should understand that shading black with black is utterly pointless.
and maybe you should use GW Balck Primer once so you would see that the Balck from the Primer is different than the regular Black you want on your Minis
so Black Primer still needs Black shading otherwise it will stick out
Hey, when is ever brand of colour exactly how it says on the tin? Most GW Greys are nowhere near neutral greys, they have blue/green mixed in to almost every one of them..
Billicus wrote: Yeah that did stick out as a weird thing to do. Otherwise it's pretty by-the-numbers.
If you watched the video, you would have caught that it was used as a recess shade.
Before you snark somebody you should understand that shading black with black is utterly pointless.
and maybe you should use GW Balck Primer once so you would see that the Balck from the Primer is different than the regular Black you want on your Minis
so Black Primer still needs Black shading otherwise it will stick out
To be clear, they primed black.... then painted black.... then did a recess shade with black.
None of those are grey-blacks, they're just blacks with different levels of glossiness.
I'm aware of why they did it, but my goodness that's a slow way to paint something that amounts to black with slightly varying levels of sheen in the crevices.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
Isn´t their standard flamer S5? Dealing D6 flamer hits on Overwatch is also pretty neat. Daemon Ruinstorm will have a rough time charging firebreathing Salamanders.
They are also resilient to volkite which turns volkite chargers into wounding Salamander infantry on 4s. That´s weak too? Salamander dreadnoughts will be very tough as they will shrug off melta and plasma shots. And a Leviathan will be pretty dope.
I'm hopeful raptors and the Alpha Legion-corrupted mutants will be released at some point. If I recall somebody modelled up some these guys but can't find the images after a cursory search. I'm afraid if they release the raptors it will spark a "Primaris" marines in the HH debate.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
All of those questions depend on the list I am playing and the narrative I am trying to follow. HH isn't a competitive game, it's a Narrative game. I think the rule is quite fine for that. If I bring nothing but infantry in my list, all those Volkite, flamers, plasma and melta shots will be heading straight for my infantry. I think there is a lot of overreaction to this.
Billicus wrote: Yeah that did stick out as a weird thing to do. Otherwise it's pretty by-the-numbers.
If you watched the video, you would have caught that it was used as a recess shade.
Before you snark somebody you should understand that shading black with black is utterly pointless.
and maybe you should use GW Balck Primer once so you would see that the Balck from the Primer is different than the regular Black you want on your Minis
so Black Primer still needs Black shading otherwise it will stick out
She used Abbadon Black from the pot after basecoat with Spray.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
All of those questions depend on the list I am playing and the narrative I am trying to follow. HH isn't a competitive game, it's a Narrative game. I think the rule is quite fine for that. If I bring nothing but infantry in my list, all those Volkite, flamers, plasma and melta shots will be heading straight for my infantry. I think there is a lot of overreaction to this.
A lot of legion rules can be situational, honestly. But there is more to a legion than just the legion ability. The special units and characters, along with warlord traits and advance reactions. They all work together. Besides, a legion shouldn't be completely defined by a single rule in order to box them into one playstyle. We are, after all, talking about legions, with tens of thousands of space marines.
Anyway, I'm a member of the Cult of Choom, so the Salamanders toughness against the Choom would hurt me. I suppose some people do play armies that have zero flamers, plasma, melta, and volkite. But that's just how it is. Sometimes you will face an army where your strengths don't matter.
themonk wrote: I'm hopeful raptors and the Alpha Legion-corrupted mutants will be released at some point. If I recall somebody modelled up some these guys but can't find the images after a cursory search. I'm afraid if they release the raptors it will spark a "Primaris" marines in the HH debate.
Unfortunately, leaks of the Liber books seem to suggest that any Legion unique unit without existing specific sculpts are out.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
Except... the way GW has worded it means that it works the opposite to how it is intended.
If you reduce something by -1, you increase it by one - the same as subtracting a negative number from something.
You can reduce something by 1, or modify something by -1, but don't try to reduce it by -1.
As written, Salamanders are more vulnerable to weapons they should be resilient against...
I’m not familiar with the MkVI sprue layout, but my brain is wondering if perhaps we might see upgrade sets, rather than separate kits for things like Destroyers?
Maybe we’ll instead get 10 Man, jump pack equipped Assault Squads with that option instead?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
Melta cannons, plasma cannons, plasma guns and volkite all wound salamanders on 3+ or 4+ instead of 2+ or 3+. Plasma also is only autowound ap2 Vs salamanders on a 5+... That's really bloody good.
Flamers are also common on solar and mechanicum, and flamer support squads are very cheap this edition.
If you want something to rage about have a look at the RG rules. They're almost completely useless.
Isn´t their standard flamer S5? Dealing D6 flamer hits on Overwatch is also pretty neat. Daemon Ruinstorm will have a rough time charging firebreathing Salamanders.
Remember that you only get 1 overwatch / reaction per assault phase. That significantly weakens the salamanders' flamers.
Isn´t their standard flamer S5? Dealing D6 flamer hits on Overwatch is also pretty neat. Daemon Ruinstorm will have a rough time charging firebreathing Salamanders.
Remember that you only get 1 overwatch / reaction per assault phase. That significantly weakens the salamanders' flamers.
Doesn´t matter much when the squad includes 10 flamers. 10 D6 hits at S5 are great.
tneva82 wrote: You expect somebody to actually play it like that?
How many 40k players ran and fired assault weapons? Despite rules clearly preventing it.
Strictly speaking, and assuming the opponent is numerate... yes, they should.
Do I expect that people will agree that the - in that sentence is there in error? Absolutely.
Do I find it hilarious that that sentence has apparently made it to print with such a basic mathematical misunderstanding in it? To quote Stone Cold Steve Austin, "Give me a hell yeah!"
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
All of those questions depend on the list I am playing and the narrative I am trying to follow. HH isn't a competitive game, it's a Narrative game. I think the rule is quite fine for that. If I bring nothing but infantry in my list, all those Volkite, flamers, plasma and melta shots will be heading straight for my infantry. I think there is a lot of overreaction to this.
A lot of legion rules can be situational, honestly. But there is more to a legion than just the legion ability. The special units and characters, along with warlord traits and advance reactions. They all work together. Besides, a legion shouldn't be completely defined by a single rule in order to box them into one playstyle. We are, after all, talking about legions, with tens of thousands of space marines.
Anyway, I'm a member of the Cult of Choom, so the Salamanders toughness against the Choom would hurt me. I suppose some people do play armies that have zero flamers, plasma, melta, and volkite. But that's just how it is. Sometimes you will face an army where your strengths don't matter.
Uhm, your conclusion is a bit off. If the Salamander´s traits funnel their opponent into not fielding certain weapons then it is a boon for the Salamanders not the other way around. Try hurting dreadnoughts which are in your face without melta weapons and you will have a bad day.
The same applies to most other legions. If you expect a specific build from your opponent and he fields an unusual force you will be at a disadvantage.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
Melta cannons, plasma cannons, plasma guns and volkite all wound salamanders on 3+ or 4+ instead of 2+ or 3+. Plasma also is only autowound ap2 Vs salamanders on a 5+... That's really bloody good.
Flamers are also common on solar and mechanicum, and flamer support squads are very cheap this edition.
If you want something to rage about have a look at the RG rules. They're almost completely useless.
Pretty much this.
Lets all simply collect Imperial Fists. Then we can clap each on our shoulders and brag all day how awesome we are.
Strg Alt wrote: Doesn´t matter much when the squad includes 10 flamers. 10 D6 hits at S5 are great.
You're missing the point. If I only have one reaction in an entire assault phase but I'm being assaulted by multiple units, that "buff" to salamander flamers becomes inherantly weaker because it has to be balanced against other reactions I might otherwise need/want to make. If another reaction is the priority, suddenly that alleged "bonus" the salamander flamer has becomes 100% worthless. Just like their legion trait, it's not reliable or consistently applicable (You can't build an army around it).
If they'd done something smart like giving salamanders' flamers breaching 6+, then it would have been a flat buff.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Yeah as a Salamander fan, they are so underwhelming. Their Legion rules are so weak in comparison to others. Almost as if they are a constant afterthought
How exactly is -1 to wound from four different weapon types and a 6+ it will not die "weak" I swear sometimes I think players just cry about everything because it's not OP as heck.
It's weak because it's never going to be used. How many flamers wounds will you get in a game ? Or how many melta will be shots at your infantry ?
They used to be resilient, and negate entire rules (fear, Sonic shriekers, etc).
Now, if, and only if, your opponent shoots at you with some very specific weapons, you are going to get special rules.
While others legions always play with theirs. It's weak because it's not used, except maybe for 10% of the shots you are going to endure.
Now, if it was the same rule, but against S4 weapons or bolts weapons, that would be a lot of fire, that would have been good actually.
I agree they kept the super flamers though, I read too quickly and didn't notice it was now specific weapons. That's at least a good thing they kept
All of those questions depend on the list I am playing and the narrative I am trying to follow. HH isn't a competitive game, it's a Narrative game. I think the rule is quite fine for that. If I bring nothing but infantry in my list, all those Volkite, flamers, plasma and melta shots will be heading straight for my infantry. I think there is a lot of overreaction to this.
A lot of legion rules can be situational, honestly. But there is more to a legion than just the legion ability. The special units and characters, along with warlord traits and advance reactions. They all work together. Besides, a legion shouldn't be completely defined by a single rule in order to box them into one playstyle. We are, after all, talking about legions, with tens of thousands of space marines.
Anyway, I'm a member of the Cult of Choom, so the Salamanders toughness against the Choom would hurt me. I suppose some people do play armies that have zero flamers, plasma, melta, and volkite. But that's just how it is. Sometimes you will face an army where your strengths don't matter.
Uhm, your conclusion is a bit off. If the Salamander´s traits funnel their opponent into not fielding certain weapons then it is a boon for the Salamanders not the other way around. Try hurting dreadnoughts which are in your face without melta weapons and you will have a bad day.
The same applies to most other legions. If you expect a specific build from your opponent and he fields an unusual force you will be at a disadvantage.
Were you intending to quote someone else? Because you're telling me my conclusion is off, but then repeating what I said?
This theory crafting is really showing that many don’t understand the game. Best case scenario of these flamer is you kill a unit. Which doesn’t mean as much as in 40K.
TwilightSparkles wrote: This theory crafting is really showing that many don’t understand the game. Best case scenario of these flamer is you kill a unit. Which doesn’t mean as much as in 40K.
What is different from killing a unit in 40K than in 30K?
Strg Alt wrote: Doesn´t matter much when the squad includes 10 flamers. 10 D6 hits at S5 are great.
You're missing the point. If I only have one reaction in an entire assault phase but I'm being assaulted by multiple units, that "buff" to salamander flamers becomes inherantly weaker because it has to be balanced against other reactions I might otherwise need/want to make. If another reaction is the priority, suddenly that alleged "bonus" the salamander flamer has becomes 100% worthless. Just like their legion trait, it's not reliable or consistently applicable (You can't build an army around it).
If they'd done something smart like giving salamanders' flamers breaching 6+, then it would have been a flat buff.
So this lone Salamander unit is assaulted by MULTIPLE units? Great overkill and a corner case. That´s in favour for the Salamander player as he can unload with his remaining units in those three units who just wiped out his specialist squad. It´s like in soccer: If you assign multiple defenders in order to try to stop a star player from the opposing team then his mates will have more freedom in the game.
Strg Alt wrote: So this lone Salamander unit is assaulted by MULTIPLE units? Great overkill and a corner case. That´s in favour for the Salamander player as he can unload with his remaining units in those three units who just wiped out his specialist squad. It´s like in soccer: If you assign multiple defenders in order to try to stop a star player from the opposing team then his mates will have more freedom in the game.
You get a single reaction in your opponent's given phase unless you gain another through a warlord trait or some other way. So that means if multiple units are assaulting multiple of your own in your opponent's assault phase, you can only react once total. So if your fire drakes are being assaulted in the same turn as your flamer support squad, you have to choose which to use your reaction on. Ergo, the flamer rule is not that great.
For what it's worth, spoke with my FLGS this morning and it turns out that she was having a hard time getting copies of the box through her rep. Apparently the game is selling like hot cakes already. She was told by her rep that he'd almost run out of allotment, and hadn't even made it half way through his list of game stores yet. She managed to get four copies of the books and the boxes.
In the US everything is being ratio'd. As I understand it a case is 2 Age of Darkness boxes. Each case gets you 1 copy of the Loyalist and Traitor rulebooks. Every 2 cases (if I understood correctly, store manager wasn't entirely clear at this point and made some semi self-contradictory statements from my understanding) gets you 1 Kratos, 1 Deimos, 1 special weapon set, 1 heavy weapon set, etc.
lord_blackfang wrote: Sooo you have a wall of Str5 flamers but you choose not to take the warlord trait that lets you use it twice a turn?
Well it's the Traitor Only option which probably keeps anyone who wants to run Vulkan from using it.
Yup. And the warlord trait that gives you access to immunity to fear / buffs against pinning is a shooting reaction. So I stand by what I said.
With that being said, the option to run a traitor force is fun in its own way, as it suddenly opens up salamanders' moritats and destroyers. And I just noticed that both flavours of destroyers can take dual hand flamers. Hilarious.
Yeah, Herrick Games started taking preorders online yesterday, saying they needed to get their numbers to GW asap in order to get enough copies for launch day.
This might seem a bit daft but I don't know much about HH game wise so bear with me.
From the sound of there is a generic marine list and the different legions just modify that? All the leaks I've seen are Legion specific but I haven't seen any list of basic jump pack troops, land speeders, or outriders but I know those models exist. I would hate to start planning out an army just to find out they can't have land speeders, or something similar.
Ahtman wrote: This might seem a bit daft but I don't know much about HH game wise so bear with me.
From the sound of there is a generic marine list and the different legions just modify that? All the leaks I've seen are Legion specific but I haven't seen any list of basic jump pack troops, land speeders, or outriders but I know those models exist. I would hate to start planning out an army just to find out they can't have land speeders, or something similar.
Everyone has the same core units and full access to the same basic units with Legion Traits pushing you to certain units over others based on where your synergies like (for example Night Lords like bulky models because they make it easier to outnumber the opponent to trigger Talent for Murder). The legion specific units are more obviously locked to each legion and are outside of the shared core units.
chaos0xomega wrote: In the US everything is being ratio'd. As I understand it a case is 2 Age of Darkness boxes. Each case gets you 1 copy of the Loyalist and Traitor rulebooks. Every 2 cases (if I understood correctly, store manager wasn't entirely clear at this point and made some semi self-contradictory statements from my understanding) gets you 1 Kratos, 1 Deimos, 1 special weapon set, 1 heavy weapon set, etc.
That does differ from what my LGS reported. They managed to get 5 copies of each of the upgrades, bought no deimos, no Kratos and some extra books from the sound of it.
I'm sure we'll be fine here, my FLGS has a deal with the devil* for sure. When everyone was pulling their hair out over Cursed City we had a stack of them up to the ceiling.
*the best part of this anaglogy is that the devil is GW
Man, the Jubilee Weekend in the U.K. has thrown me off. I have to keep reminding myself it’s only Thursday morning, and so I’ve plenty of time to put gubbins up for sale to potentially fund a copy of this game!
Think I’m going to head to Ashford, as I wouldn’t say no to the full smorgasbord of pre-order trinkets.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Yeah, Herrick Games started taking preorders online yesterday, saying they needed to get their numbers to GW asap in order to get enough copies for launch day.
The FLGS I prordered with put theirs up the day it was announced because they needed to get their numbers in by the 31st(two days ago).
Looks good. Personally I would have preshaded the metallic with a black wash and then drybrushed the metal back on rather than doing the recess shade with Akhelian Green.
Also one thing I want to try is Juan Hidalgo's method of using a thinned down warp lightning to add a blue-green gradient, like in this video...
He does a lot of cool stuff in that vid, I'm just talking about the step at 9:15 where he adds the green.
chaos0xomega wrote: In the US everything is being ratio'd. As I understand it a case is 2 Age of Darkness boxes. Each case gets you 1 copy of the Loyalist and Traitor rulebooks. Every 2 cases (if I understood correctly, store manager wasn't entirely clear at this point and made some semi self-contradictory statements from my understanding) gets you 1 Kratos, 1 Deimos, 1 special weapon set, 1 heavy weapon set, etc.
That does differ from what my LGS reported. They managed to get 5 copies of each of the upgrades, bought no deimos, no Kratos and some extra books from the sound of it.
I don't see how it differs. The books, upgrades, deimos/kratos aren't automatic, you still need to add them to your order, but you're capped at a max quantity of those other items based on the number of cases of Age of Darkness you order in accordance with the ratio I indicated (roughly) - although another local store owner did mention to me yesterday that their rep did allow them to add a single extra special weapon set to their order above their ratio limit, so it might not be a hard and fast rule and instead a general sales guideline that they are being told to generally follow.
RazorEdge wrote: She used Abbadon Black from the pot after basecoat with Spray.
that's a GW thing.
in a recent Masterclass video, Louise said:
"our first stage is going to be to prime the miniature in chaos black, but then we're going to add a thin layer of abaddon black over the miniature as well.
we're doing this just because the primer has a slightly different finish to our range of potted paints, so applying that thin layer of abaddon black is just going to mean all our paints later have the same consistency."
RazorEdge wrote: She used Abbadon Black from the pot after basecoat with Spray.
that's a GW thing.
in a recent Masterclass video, Louise said:
"our first stage is going to be to prime the miniature in chaos black, but then we're going to add a thin layer of abaddon black over the miniature as well.
we're doing this just because the primer has a slightly different finish to our range of potted paints, so applying that thin layer of abaddon black is just going to mean all our paints later have the same consistency."
It's always been a GW thing because the two paints have different finishes so if you have to touch up with Abbadon later it looks consistent.
I'll admit to being slightly confused how their 'oops, we're further away' rule works with, well, possibly quite a few things. Flamer templates being the most obvious. You are resolving a shooting attack (or reaction), so does the rule effectively/virtually put some or all of the models 'outside' template?
Voss wrote: I'll admit to being slightly confused how their 'oops, we're further away' rule works with, well, possibly quite a few things. Flamer templates being the most obvious. You are resolving a shooting attack (or reaction), so does the rule effectively/virtually put some or all of the models 'outside' template?
Flamer templates don't use measuring so RAW wouldn't be affected.
tneva82 wrote: Maybe to you. Others like me do spot difference
But do you really think it's worth the effort? Like, I'm sure if I looked closely I'd spot the difference... but we're talking about a black recess shade on a model that is already painted black, the visual difference is that it's going to look slightly more matte in the recesses.
Just seems like a silly / inefficient way of painting a model. Spray black, paint black, recess shade black... that's a lot of effort for something that looks only marginally better than just spraying it black and calling it a day.
We have seen weapon upgrade sprues for Titanicus earlier, so I wouldn't put it past them to do a sprue with the siege claw and siege drill separately. In the meantime, I see FW is still offering the resin arms for £15.50 each for those who want them, or if you want to double up on a particular weapon.
Maybe it's the paint scheme, but I haven't been wowed by either new plastic dreadnought. I almost always prefer GW to FW models, but these don't click with me like the current models do
Ohhhhh baby. Come to papa. I need it. This and the Kratos and the Sicaran will all be mine.
I built one resin leviathan and have another yet unassembled -- the kit itself is fine, but the resin weapons leave something to be desired with their casting quality.
Now, if only they could make some plastic Mechanicum cyborg/robots and tanks. . . I need those soooooooooooooooooo badly lol.
Yeah that turned my reaction from hype to absolute bafflement.
Deredeos are the ranged specialist dread, I'd 100% parsed Leviathans as gigantic super-reinforced death fridges designed to tank heavy fire as they walk up and tear down siege defences with their bare hands, the melee alternative to the Deredeo as an artillery dread. Whilst dual-ranged weapons on a Leviathan was always possible, I'd essentially parsed that as Kind Of Doing It Wrong.
I mean, do we know there isn't any in the box? They didn't show off the contemptor with all it's weapon options.
per the article "This posable kit is loaded for ranged combat, with a choice of three types of arm weapon – the grav-flux bombard, the cyclonic melta lance, and the storm cannon, as well a choice of two integrated hull weapons – paired heavy flamers or twin-linked volkite calivers. You even have the option to outfit it with a carapace-mounted phosphex discharger, for that extra-toxic anti-infantry sting in the tail." so apparently not
