Has anyone heard if there will be any more of the weapon upgrade kits? Something like a Breacher kit with shields, lascutters, and graviton guns or a Despoiler kit with bolt pistols, swords, and axes. Also will there be jump packs with either single nozzle like the Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard or the older twin jet turbine style? With the jump packs and a Despoiler kit it would take care of Assault squads and Destroyers would need a few more pistols and some rad-missile launchers.

Smaug wrote:
Has anyone heard if there will be any more of the weapon upgrade kits? Something like a Breacher kit with shields, lascutters, and graviton guns or a Despoiler kit with bolt pistols, swords, and axes. Also will there be jump packs with either single nozzle like the Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard or the older twin jet turbine style? With the jump packs and a Despoiler kit it would take care of Assault squads and Destroyers would need a few more pistols and some rad-missile launchers.

We know there are more heavy weapons.

Assault marines and jump packs will be a new kit (unless they don't happen, which seems unlikely to me with the 'all-in' focus they're putting on HH). Jump packs are the harness, too, which gets modelled on the chest piece, and GW's very averse to 'tactical' legs and assault marines. More running or... sigh... jumping poses would be in the works.

if we get running assault marines be greatful, it means no fething flight stands

assault marines, breachers and destroyers are obviously coming, I am hoping they are not MKVI as I would rather the breachers be MKIII and the assault marines MKII but thats me.

Mk IV assault marines with the single turbine jump pack please.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Mk IV assault marines with the single turbine jump pack please.

Sanguinary guard style?

 GaroRobe wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Mk IV assault marines with the single turbine jump pack please.

Sanguinary guard style?

They could dual kit with destroyers

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
They could dual kit with destroyers

Or make you buy a separate accessory box.

It's cute that people still think there are going to be all inclusive boxes.

They've crossed into weapons boxes making people buy 2 boxes to make 1 unit rather than just putting the whole unit in 1 box.

Sure, sure... you had to buy X boxes to make an all one weapon unit before in 40k. However, instead of just putting X unit in 1 box, they've just put it in 2 boxes.

They had the chance to do the right thing, by the customer, and didn't.

They'd just have to add a weapon sprue to the box, increasing the sprue count and thereby the price (though as has been noted, the heavy sprue is quite sparse, and it seems even the special sprue has some unused space).

JWBS wrote:
They'd just have to add a weapon sprue to the box, increasing the sprue count and thereby the price (though as has been noted, the heavy sprue is quite sparse, and it seems even the special sprue has some unused space).

I'm talking more about what WILL be coming, like Assault Marines.

From what we've seen, I put my money on Assault Marines in one box with pistols and chainswords, maybe a Plasma Pistol and Power Fist.

Followed with a Jump Pack box and anything not in the "Assault Marines" box.

Kinda depends imo. JPs aren't exactly small when it comes to sprue allocation, which is why DC squads, for exaqmple, were 5 man with packs iirc. Obviously this suits some but for others (people who want 10 packless DC with a rhino) it's quite disastrous.

JWBS wrote:
Kinda depends imo. JPs aren't exactly small when it comes to sprue allocation, which is why DC squads, for exaqmple, were 5 man with packs iirc. Obviously this suits some but for others (people who want 10 packless DC with a rhino) it's quite disastrous.

One sprue could possibly fit 5 jump packs, 5 sets of bolt pistol chain sword arms, and one set of sergeant pistols and melee options.

I'd prefer a good ol fashioned jetpack sprue...so you could add one to any model you chose

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
One sprue could possibly fit 5 jump packs, 5 sets of bolt pistol chain sword arms, and one set of sergeant pistols and melee options.

And then 4 of those sprues per box.

I presume the 20-man squads was also a thing for Assault Squads, yes?

 kodos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm far from a GW supporter but even I think this discussion is getting a bit silly.

Maybe, but I have said it already, for a premium priced model kit, I expect a premium product, and not something I need to cut them a litte to make it fit

But someone else might say for a premium priced model kit they want something that looks good, and IMO the new hand arrangement looks better than the old one.

If we're talking about "for a premium priced model kit" arguments... I still find the split shoulder pad more egregious. Or the fact you have to buy a separate weapons kit at all, for that price they couldn't just throw a special weapons sprue into the troops box.

 TalonZahn wrote:
It's cute that people still think there are going to be all inclusive boxes.

They've crossed into weapons boxes making people buy 2 boxes to make 1 unit rather than just putting the whole unit in 1 box.

Sure, sure... you had to buy X boxes to make an all one weapon unit before in 40k. However, instead of just putting X unit in 1 box, they've just put it in 2 boxes.

They had the chance to do the right thing, by the customer, and didn't.

Uh, we had to buy the weapons seperate before this too for HH. I really don't get where you're inventing a problem out of this from.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Uh, we had to buy the weapons seperate before this too for HH. I really don't get where you're inventing a problem out of this from.

Exactly, it was (and still is) a HH problem via FW.

Now it's the new standard via GW going forward.

I'm saying it's going to extend further into other units (the actual topic) like the Assault Marines probably no longer coming with jump packs.

If you think it stops with HH, well make sure to tag this.

 TalonZahn wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Uh, we had to buy the weapons seperate before this too for HH. I really don't get where you're inventing a problem out of this from.

Exactly, it was (and still is) a HH problem via FW.

Now it's the new standard via GW going forward.

I'm saying it's going to extend further into other units (the actual topic) like the Assault Marines probably no longer coming with jump packs.

If you think it stops with HH, well make sure to tag this.

At the end of the day it's a price problem and not a separating parts into different sets problem. I don't really care how many boxes or packs I have to buy, I care about the price at the bottom of the invoice.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 kodos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm far from a GW supporter but even I think this discussion is getting a bit silly.

Maybe, but I have said it already, for a premium priced model kit, I expect a premium product, and not something I need to cut them a litte to make it fit

But someone else might say for a premium priced model kit they want something that looks good, and IMO the new hand arrangement looks better than the old one.

If we're talking about "for a premium priced model kit" arguments... I still find the split shoulder pad more egregious. Or the fact you have to buy a separate weapons kit at all, for that price they couldn't just throw a special weapons sprue into the troops box.

the split shoulder pads are because they need to look good, the the line between will look worse than than not 100% round casted bolts, is only a problem if you don't take the time to assembly

which is another problem, it is a premium product for people who want tokes to game, so there will be not many who take the time and afford to make them look as good as they could be (so the whole think about paying more to get something that looks better falls apart with bad assemblied, too much primer used, quick painted models)

and yes, for that price and the reason that it only fits MkVI the weapon sprues should be in the box and not stand alone
being cheaper and/or fitting other armour would be a good reason not doing it, but in this case there is no good argument to do it

Is it a new standard, or is it just GW trying to make sprues stretch farther to cover more units? The weapons aren't compatible with the older Mk III or Mk IV kits, but could easily fit a new Mk V or II kit. The rhino looks carefully designed to reuse most of the hull and hatch sprue for a vindicator, whirlwind, or predator. The spartan sprues are designed to swap out a single sprue to build a land raider proteus instead. The sponson sprue from the kratos clearly will be reused for both the sicaran and a predator kit.

HH tactical squads dont come with special or heavy weapons normally. Support and devastator squads are all equipped with the same weapons, unlike the mixes of 40k. It makes sense for hh to split the weapons sprues out. There's no point to make a sprue of 10 guard plasma guns, flamers, and grenade launchers if a guard squad can only take 1 or 2 per squad, while units like fire dragons are only armed with their fusion guns and dont have other options.

The closest would be the upgrade sprues for necromunda or kill team, but they are to customize individual models more than just split out a set of weapon options entirely.

When it comes into effect for Primaris kits from Marines 2.0, then we'll know.

 kodos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 kodos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm far from a GW supporter but even I think this discussion is getting a bit silly.

Maybe, but I have said it already, for a premium priced model kit, I expect a premium product, and not something I need to cut them a litte to make it fit

But someone else might say for a premium priced model kit they want something that looks good, and IMO the new hand arrangement looks better than the old one.

If we're talking about "for a premium priced model kit" arguments... I still find the split shoulder pad more egregious. Or the fact you have to buy a separate weapons kit at all, for that price they couldn't just throw a special weapons sprue into the troops box.

the split shoulder pads are because they need to look good, the the line between will look worse than than not 100% round casted bolts, is only a problem if you don't take the time to assembly

which is another problem, it is a premium product for people who want tokes to game, so there will be not many who take the time and afford to make them look as good as they could be (so the whole think about paying more to get something that looks better falls apart with bad assemblied, too much primer used, quick painted models)

and yes, for that price and the reason that it only fits MkVI the weapon sprues should be in the box and not stand alone
being cheaper and/or fitting other armour would be a good reason not doing it, but in this case there is no good argument to do it

There are options (that would be more complicated to design) that would eliminate the seam while maintaining the rivet shape.

But I think it's a similar sort of argument...

The shoulder pads are annoying and I'd expect better on a premium priced kit... but with a bit of extra time during assembly it can be fixed.

The guns not fitting older kits is annoying and I'd expect better on a premium priced kit... but with a bit of extra time during assembly it can be fixed.

I've never played a game of HH to know how many special weapons you're likely to have vs bolter marines, but to me its six in one half a dozen in the other, either to fix 40 shoulder pads vs adapting 10 special weapons, neither being something I particularly want to do.

I think for the most part I've talked myself out of buying into HH for now, perhaps I'll read some reviews or watch some games once it gets out into the broader community and decide whether to pick it up in a few months when (if?) it restocks.

this is simply to save on machine time and mould cost

we have seen similar in the past, with certain sprues being re-used for several kits in 40k as well (the time when the different Space Wolves units were simply "naked" tactical marines sprues with an upgrade and melee weapon sprue added)
and it also makes no real sense in 40k that you need to buy a Devastor Box to get the 1 heavy weapon you want in your Tactical Squad but having a basic Marine Box and buy the weapons/upgrades you need

I don't think anyone has a problem with GW selling weapon sprues - it's been something that I've seen calls for for years and years.

What I don't think we were expecting was GW to charge more for them than a whole squad cost a few years back.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think anyone has a problem with GW selling weapon sprues - it's been something that I've seen calls for for years and years.

What I don't think we were expecting was GW to charge more for them than a whole squad cost a few years back.

Only due to the scale. Back in the day you could could buy 5 packs of metal plasma guns for $10.95 from GW, or $2.19 each. The special weapon box is 60 weapons for $42, or $0.70 per gun. Trade off of buying bulk and a fixed variety, but each gun is a lot cheaper.

With all this talk of possible other plastics I am tempted to delay my army building until more is known. My 40k main are White Scars but whether I build them for 30k will depend entirely on the existance of plastic jetbikes. Otherwise I'm probably going Alpha Legion.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

There are options (that would be more complicated to design) that would eliminate the seam while maintaining the rivet shape.

I don't think that's true. I'm scribbling in my notebooks here, and I don't think it's possible to cast the complete pad in a two piece mold, in any orientation. You could do it for a single shoulder pad at a time with a slide mold with 3+ mold elements, but I'm dubious whether it could work for multiple at once given the orientations of the moving parts. And you'd still be left with a mold line on the visible surface of the shoulder pad, roughly where the seam is going to be on the two-piece shoulders.

Now, in a larger scale you could do some things to get around this, such as adding the studs separately, as it might be possible to cast indentations for locating them without running into problems with undercuts.

In the end, GW could have avoided this by altering the stud pattern, with perhaps only one or two lines going down the middle, that could have been feasible to cast. Personally I would have preferred this option, or even having the Mk6's trademark rimless shoulder pads on both sides.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

There are options (that would be more complicated to design) that would eliminate the seam while maintaining the rivet shape.

I don't think that's true. I'm scribbling in my notebooks here, and I don't think it's possible to cast the complete pad in a two piece mold, in any orientation. You could do it for a single shoulder pad at a time with a slide mold with 3+ mold elements, but I'm dubious whether it could work for multiple at once given the orientations of the moving parts. And you'd still be left with a mold line on the visible surface of the shoulder pad, roughly where the seam is going to be on the two-piece shoulders.

Now, in a larger scale you could do some things to get around this, such as adding the studs separately, as it might be possible to cast indentations for locating them without running into problems with undercuts.

In the end, GW could have avoided this by altering the stud pattern, with perhaps only one or two lines going down the middle, that could have been feasible to cast. Personally I would have preferred this option, or even having the Mk6's trademark rimless shoulder pads on both sides.

I'm not that familiar with slide moulding, GW did use a slide mould for the Baneblade in a way that didn't need them to be cast one at a time, but I don't really know how that was done. I've seen some Tamiya and Bandai models that make me think "how the hell did they do that" because I can't picture the slide process.

But that's just one option. I think the shoulder pads are large enough that you could do it in 3 pieces. The shoulder pad itself could be cast as a single piece with only the central most studs cast in place and holes for the front/back studs. Then the front studs are grouped together on a frame that slots in from the back, and the same for the back studs. I'd have to sketch it up in CAD to be sure, but I think it'd work so long as the pad is thick enough to have a cut out on the back, which I think it probably is.

It would require more assembly, but it'd be a quick assembly with minimal clean up required afterwards.

Another option which I know would alter the aesthetics is just to have an intentional panel line there, so it doesn't matter that there's a seam because it's on a panel line (the seam could go back and forth around the central row of studs in such a way that it looks like those studs are holding the front and back of the shoulder pad together).

Third option is just have them in resin But GW likes to pretend resin is some exotic material priced as if it were a precious metal even though their casting quality is some of the worse around.

Just tried an original RTB01 beaky head on a Primaris body and it didn't fit at all.

This is rampant profiteering from GW and we can't let them get away with it.

 ekwatts wrote:
Just tried an original RTB01 beaky head on a Primaris body and it didn't fit at all.

This is rampant profiteering from GW and we can't let them get away with it.

It's so cute when you people try to do a logic argument and always end up with a fallacy.

Just felt left out of all the righteous fury and anger.

Just issue that 8feet primaris aren't supposed to be compatible with 7 feet marines.

That example is akin to dwarf head not fitting elf body...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's so cute when you people try to do a logic argument and always end up with a fallacy.

When it's as dumb as that person's post and clearly only posted to instigate conflict, you're better off just ignoring them. You can't reason with someone whose only agenda is to create drama.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
When it's as dumb as that person's post and clearly only posted to instigate conflict, you're better off just ignoring them. You can't reason with someone whose only agenda is to create drama.

Did you read any of lord_blackfang's posts in this thread?

I'm always impressed by how principled people are on dakka. Near wall to wall whining about price all based on nothing but strong moral convictions.

In regards to slide core tooling for the molds to make riveted shoulderpads, I'm sure it can be done. The problem, I believe, is that GW may only have one machine that can handle those molds. Not much of a problem for lower demand kits like the baneblade, but it would become a massive production bottleneck for higher demand kits like space marines

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
In regards to slide core tooling for the molds to make riveted shoulderpads, I'm sure it can be done. The problem, I believe, is that GW may only have one machine that can handle those molds. Not much of a problem for lower demand kits like

Or, more simply, it costs more.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's so cute when you people try to do a logic argument and always end up with a fallacy.

When it's as dumb as that person's post and clearly only posted to instigate conflict, you're better off just ignoring them. You can't reason with someone whose only agenda is to create drama.

DRAMA YOU SAY?!

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I don't understand this compulsive need to defend every single decision they make, when some of them appear to be anti-consumer.

Do people like you have a credit system where they pay you 30 cents every time you make a bad argument in defence of GW online?

Anti-consumerism! Shills! In one post.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
The fact they they deliberately designed these weapons to only fit MK6, or require extensive cutting is INDEFENSIBLE. If you think this is not the intent you're lying to yourself. Every marine kit since 2013 has followed the same weapon - arm layout and it suddenly changes here? Alongside kits that follow this tried and true method. Yeah that makes a ton of sense.

INDEFENSIBLE! INDEFENSIBLE!!!!!!

Post-satire, post irony, post everything. This thread really took a turn, and it has nothing to do with those of us calling out the histrionics.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

There are options (that would be more complicated to design) that would eliminate the seam while maintaining the rivet shape.

I don't think that's true. I'm scribbling in my notebooks here, and I don't think it's possible to cast the complete pad in a two piece mold, in any orientation. You could do it for a single shoulder pad at a time with a slide mold with 3+ mold elements, but I'm dubious whether it could work for multiple at once given the orientations of the moving parts. And you'd still be left with a mold line on the visible surface of the shoulder pad, roughly where the seam is going to be on the two-piece shoulders.

Now, in a larger scale you could do some things to get around this, such as adding the studs separately, as it might be possible to cast indentations for locating them without running into problems with undercuts.

In the end, GW could have avoided this by altering the stud pattern, with perhaps only one or two lines going down the middle, that could have been feasible to cast. Personally I would have preferred this option, or even having the Mk6's trademark rimless shoulder pads on both sides.

I'm just glad I don't live in a universe where they give us shoulder pads covered in divots (or plug holes) that we have to plug armour studs into by hand.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'm just glad I don't live in a universe where they give us shoulder pads covered in divots (or plug holes) that we have to plug armour studs into by hand.

The scale models hobby knows crazier builds than that, albeit usually not in scales as small as our "28mm heroic". I can think of a lot of incredibly laborious assemblies in 1:35, all done in the name of uncompromising realism and scale accurary. We should count ourselves blessed that Forgeworld never embraced photoetched brass as a material

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'm just glad I don't live in a universe where they give us shoulder pads covered in divots (or plug holes) that we have to plug armour studs into by hand.

The scale models hobby knows crazier builds than that, albeit usually not in scales as small as our "28mm heroic". I can think of a lot of incredibly laborious assemblies in 1:35, all done in the name of uncompromising realism and scale accurary. We should count ourselves blessed that Forgeworld never embraced photoetched brass as a material

I like watching some tank modellers on Youtube and yeah....oof.

Oh but I would quite enjoy the white knights trying to defend having to try and hold a single 1mm rivet in your fingers and shave the mold line going down the middle of it as if it was the only possible way of doing things.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'm just glad I don't live in a universe where they give us shoulder pads covered in divots (or plug holes) that we have to plug armour studs into by hand.

The scale models hobby knows crazier builds than that, albeit usually not in scales as small as our "28mm heroic". I can think of a lot of incredibly laborious assemblies in 1:35, all done in the name of uncompromising realism and scale accurary. We should count ourselves blessed that Forgeworld never embraced photoetched brass as a material

There was brass stuff from FW and even GW.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'm just glad I don't live in a universe where they give us shoulder pads covered in divots (or plug holes) that we have to plug armour studs into by hand.

The scale models hobby knows crazier builds than that, albeit usually not in scales as small as our "28mm heroic". I can think of a lot of incredibly laborious assemblies in 1:35, all done in the name of uncompromising realism and scale accurary. We should count ourselves blessed that Forgeworld never embraced photoetched brass as a material

There was brass stuff from FW and even GW.

Yeah, but those were icons and deck plates, not full photoetch brass kits:


I'm also thankful they never made linkage kits because I would be dumb enough to buy individual metal tracks, assemble them and glue them to my tanks to have "realistic" sag in the track.

 Kanluwen wrote:

There was brass stuff from FW and even GW.

Sure, but those were flat sheets with iconography, or things like engine bay or floor grilles (on the Warhound titan and the Dark Eldar Tantalus, IIRC). Those are still easy mode. I'm referring to the Dark Souls of etched brass, proper 3D construction using nothing but thin metal origami'd into shape.

They were also leaves and other fiddly as hell bits...I'd rather build a tank than those leaves again!

On the whole upgrade sprue thing, I think Id rather have to buy a core box and an upgrade sprue than some of their more recent “dual” kits where you end up with 80% of a squad sat on the sprue because you built the other half of the kit. It always seems so wasteful.

 Jadenim wrote:
On the whole upgrade sprue thing, I think Id rather have to buy a core box and an upgrade sprue than some of their more recent “dual” kits where you end up with 80% of a squad sat on the sprue because you built the other half of the kit. It always seems so wasteful.

It amuses me that there's companies out there who have started using that as an opportunity. For example, if you build a squad of Necron Immortals, you have all of those lovely Deathmarks arms left over, so Wargame Exclusive will gladly sell you a set of resin bodies compatible with them so you can "use them up".

I've seen recasters just straight up throw in a second set of bodies, so you can build both units from one box.

There's also magnetizing and stuff to avoid wastage.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I've seen recasters just straight up throw in a second set of bodies, so you can build both units from one box.

It's amazing what you can do for your bottom-line when you're not doing pesky things like paying sculptors!

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
On the whole upgrade sprue thing, I think Id rather have to buy a core box and an upgrade sprue than some of their more recent “dual” kits where you end up with 80% of a squad sat on the sprue because you built the other half of the kit. It always seems so wasteful.

It amuses me that there's companies out there who have started using that as an opportunity. For example, if you build a squad of Necron Immortals, you have all of those lovely Deathmarks arms left over, so Wargame Exclusive will gladly sell you a set of resin bodies compatible with them so you can "use them up".

Eeeh… “compatible” is a tiny bit of a stretch. Literally; the shoulders are too narrow for the Eliminator guns to line up properly without some serious editing.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

Eeeh… “compatible” is a tiny bit of a stretch. Literally; the shoulders are too narrow for the Eliminator guns to line up properly without some serious editing.

They are marketed as being compatible, at any rate. I do notice there's a bolded warning on the website about actually matching the arms and bodies being a huge pain, but the marketing intent being there is indisputable.

I caved.

One copy of Age of Darkness ordered via Element Games (other online stores are available).

Used up all my Crystals, so got it for £136.50 shipped in the end which isn’t too awful at all.

Now…to decide upon a Legion. Whichever I go with, only Veteran, not Line units will get fancy Dan lids and pads.

When I’ve sold the other books with deals pending (second hand BL, I’m not an author, well technically I am because you’re reading this. Would you pay for this post? I rest on your face) I’ll likely be back for a couple of Rhinos and a Kratos.

Roadmap!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/warhammer-the-horus-heresy-road-map-the-age-is-dark-but-the-futures-bright/

I don't know why, but I heard that in Mel Brooks' voice...

So August for Mechanicum? Nice.

Please make the Karacnos good and in squadrons. Also, please let the Ordo Reductor keep the Minotaurs...

I wonder if we can expect any miniatures releases for the other Libers. I don't see GW making plastic Mechanicum or Solar Auxilia, at least straight out of the gate, but a Custodes grav vehicle that could be used in 40k as well sounds like it'd be feasible.

Said this in the plastic predictions threads, but I would at least think we'll see a plastic Siege Automata or something--since they can show up in multiple factions.

Thallax were rumoured to be a plastic release

Good to know that Exemplary Battles is continuing.

Oooh. Be interesting if Liber Imperium has rules for Talons, Knights Errent and Imperial Army/Solar Aux all bundled into one.

Plus, the Warhammer Design Studio is cooking up even more new material for the new edition, which we’ll be able to tell you about in due course. That includes loads of new miniatures – starting with iconic Legiones Astartes units in plastic, and exciting new Legion-specific characters and upgrades coming in resin.

Are there any characters without models in the current books, or is this the first hint of a new round of splatbooks?

They responded to a Tweet that Demons pdf seems to be the case at this point.

Another response that Blackshields are also expected to be a pdf.

For those that care to know.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Plus, the Warhammer Design Studio is cooking up even more new material for the new edition, which we’ll be able to tell you about in due course. That includes loads of new miniatures – starting with iconic Legiones Astartes units in plastic, and exciting new Legion-specific characters and upgrades coming in resin.

Are there any characters without models in the current books, or is this the first hint of a new round of splatbooks?

Just Corswain I think.

Corswain and Exodus.

So that seems clear enough on the book side of things, but...

is that downward arrow new plastic kits every month 'til November (maybe longer), or really just a cluster for late july, august and early september and then resin shoulder pads and heads dropping in along the way?

Yea the design on the arrow tells us nothing.

Kratos rules for 40K.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/the-almighty-kratos-heavy-assault-tank-bulldozes-into-warhammer-40000-with-these-free-rules/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-horus-heresy&utm_content=hhassault&fbclid=IwAR3jdKLUyTFDQZ5poUbZyEqDMSaAgsVg8Y4fnaL6hohKrl1acVml-0OZcdQ

Maybe shove that in its own thread?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kratos rules for 40K.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/the-almighty-kratos-heavy-assault-tank-bulldozes-into-warhammer-40000-with-these-free-rules/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-horus-heresy&utm_content=hhassault&fbclid=IwAR3jdKLUyTFDQZ5poUbZyEqDMSaAgsVg8Y4fnaL6hohKrl1acVml-0OZcdQ

Oh, did we forget chaos marines exist again?

Re: Slide coring - from what I understand GW has all but abandoned the tech, it turned out to be too expensive, complex, and time consuming and they weren't getting good results with it. They have retained the slide core molds for the baneblade kit and a couple others (? or was it just the baneblade?) but from what I understand have no intention to produce more kits using the tech, at least not until the complexity and cost aspects come down.

Re: roadmap - still no clear indication of whether Blackshields or Shattered Legions will continue to have life. Shattered Legions *could* be in Liber Imperium, arguably, but Blackshields in Liber Imperium wouldn't make sense. Unless Shattered Legions/Blackshields are considered "Imperialis MIlitia & Warp Cults" (which i'm not sure I understand what that means), then they might not be supported anymore?

Re: Non-marine plastics - heavy doubt. GW will get a lot more utility and sales from producing marine plastics than anything else for the time being. A plastic custodes vehicle/unit that has rules for 40k might see release in the future, but I wouldn't expect to see plastic Mechanicum units anytime soon, not as long as GW continues to delineate a hard difference between the Heresy era "Mechanicum" and the 40k era "Adeptus Mechanicus" (the two terms are not interchangeable and refer to different periods in the existence of what is essentially the same entity but with different hierearchies, structures, and rules/regulations to follow) and to not provide 30k rules for 40k AdMech minis nor 40k rules for 30k Mechanicum minis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: Kratos - Woulda been nice if CSM could use them... only real takeaway is that I hope that the Kratos Battlecannon having an AP and an HE round is a sign of whats to come for Guard, but I doubt it (based on rapid fire battlecannons in the knights books).

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kratos rules for 40K.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/the-almighty-kratos-heavy-assault-tank-bulldozes-into-warhammer-40000-with-these-free-rules/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-horus-heresy&utm_content=hhassault&fbclid=IwAR3jdKLUyTFDQZ5poUbZyEqDMSaAgsVg8Y4fnaL6hohKrl1acVml-0OZcdQ

Oh, did we forget chaos marines exist again?

Can't spoil the upcoming CSM codex....
But chances are...it's not in there!

Has it been officially stated anywhere that units without models except for Exemplary Battles units are coming back? It clearly states in this article the PDF is for old discontinued models, same as worded before.

Bradeh wrote:
Has it been officially stated anywhere that units without models except for Exemplary Battles units are coming back? It clearly states in this article the PDF is for old discontinued models, same as worded before.

It isn't the same wording; the article which first mentioned the Legacies pdf I think leaves it more open - that the pdf includes more than just the discontinued models

For the really esoteric things – including discontinued models – rules will be made available for free in the forthcoming Legacies of the Age of Darkness PDF. In any case, we want you to be able to join in all the fun with the new edition as soon as possible – no matter what you collect.

I really hope the Panoply of War options are in there too!

 PetitionersCity wrote:

Bradeh wrote:
Has it been officially stated anywhere that units without models except for Exemplary Battles units are coming back? It clearly states in this article the PDF is for old discontinued models, same as worded before.

It isn't the same wording; the article which first mentioned the Legacies pdf I think leaves it more open - that the pdf includes more than just the discontinued models

For the really esoteric things – including discontinued models – rules will be made available for free in the forthcoming Legacies of the Age of Darkness PDF. In any case, we want you to be able to join in all the fun with the new edition as soon as possible – no matter what you collect.

I really hope the Panoply of War options are in there too!

Yeah I saw that, but things like Iron Havocs don't really scream esoteric to me. I hope I'm wrong.

 PetitionersCity wrote:
I really hope the Panoply of War options are in there too!

Same. I have a Praetor launcher that was being added to my Ordo Reductor...

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm just glad I don't live in a universe where they give us shoulder pads covered in divots (or plug holes) that we have to plug armour studs into by hand.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Oh but I would quite enjoy the white knights trying to defend having to try and hold a single 1mm rivet in your fingers and shave the mold line going down the middle of it as if it was the only possible way of doing things.

What I'm suggesting would have the studs on separate frames and you glue the whole frame in, it would take seconds to do, you wouldn't be gluing on individual studs. You also wouldn't be cleaning mould lines off individual rivets, the mould lines would be on the frame that holds the rivets and thus not be visible on the finished model, so you wouldn't have to clean them up at all or at most just whip a knife over them to ensure a good fit.

I can guarantee it'll be faster than trying to make those seam lines we have now disappear. The downside would be that it would inevitably take up more sprue space because it'd be 3 bits instead of 2 bits, but I'm assuming we're all on the "for a premium product..." line of thinking at this point.

I think GW have done similar things before when detail on a surface is not a aligned to the mould release direction of a larger piece, but maybe I'm thinking of another company. I'm sure I've shoved detail bits through holes and then glued them on the back before, lol.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

What I'm suggesting would have the studs on separate frames and you glue the whole frame in, it would take seconds to do, you wouldn't be gluing on individual studs. You also wouldn't be cleaning mould lines off individual rivets, the mould lines would be on the frame that holds the rivets and thus not be visible on the finished model, so you wouldn't have to clean them up at all or at most just whip a knife over them to ensure a good fit.

I can guarantee it'll be faster than trying to make those seam lines we have now disappear. The downside would be that it would inevitably take up more sprue space because it'd be 3 bits instead of 2 bits, but I'm assuming we're all on the "for a premium product..." line of thinking at this point.

I think GW have done similar things before when detail on a surface is not a aligned to the mould release direction of a larger piece, but maybe I'm thinking of another company. I'm sure I've shoved detail bits through holes and then glued them on the back before, lol.

Might have been the spikes on Nurgle shoulder pads even. It's a cool idea.

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kratos rules for 40K.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/the-almighty-kratos-heavy-assault-tank-bulldozes-into-warhammer-40000-with-these-free-rules/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-horus-heresy&utm_content=hhassault&fbclid=IwAR3jdKLUyTFDQZ5poUbZyEqDMSaAgsVg8Y4fnaL6hohKrl1acVml-0OZcdQ

Oh, did we forget chaos marines exist again?

Yep. I'm shocked it's not got 2 data sheets right out the gate. I planned to get one for my white scars and one for my thousand sons. I've started with one so I guess that's for my white scars and my thousand sons just don't get one I suppose!

Fingers crossed there's a chaos one later...

The Black Adder wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kratos rules for 40K.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/the-almighty-kratos-heavy-assault-tank-bulldozes-into-warhammer-40000-with-these-free-rules/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-horus-heresy&utm_content=hhassault&fbclid=IwAR3jdKLUyTFDQZ5poUbZyEqDMSaAgsVg8Y4fnaL6hohKrl1acVml-0OZcdQ

Oh, did we forget chaos marines exist again?

Yep. I'm shocked it's not got 2 data sheets right out the gate. I planned to get one for my white scars and one for my thousand sons. I've started with one so I guess that's for my white scars and my thousand sons just don't get one I suppose!

Fingers crossed there's a chaos one later...

At this point there have been enough codices that gw should just print a new compendium and update everything.

I'm very much liking that GW seems to be making very chunky books for army rules. The Crusade Imperialis book was really good in 1.0 with 3 armies in one and it's good to see that become the benchmark instead of spreading everything into 7 or 8 individual books.

So, do we think the Kratos in 40k will be rolled into codex books and so get proper updates over time, or will it be a splash rules release and left to languish with half-hearted updates along with FW models?

I'm hoping the former as it is a plastic release.

Splog wrote:
So, do we think the Kratos in 40k will be rolled into codex books and so get proper updates over time, or will it be a splash rules release and left to languish with half-hearted updates along with FW models?

I'm hoping the former as it is a plastic release.

I'm expecting it in Marines 2.0 alongside the Spartan, Leviathan, Sicaran, and updated contemptor. They may also add the various pintle mount options to firstborn vehicles to match the deimos kits as well.

Splog wrote:
So, do we think the Kratos in 40k will be rolled into codex books and so get proper updates over time, or will it be a splash rules release and left to languish with half-hearted updates along with FW models?

I'm hoping the former as it is a plastic release.

Given the contemptor and relic terminator armor we can expect it to make it's way into the codex.


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Racerguy180 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kratos rules for 40K.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/the-almighty-kratos-heavy-assault-tank-bulldozes-into-warhammer-40000-with-these-free-rules/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-horus-heresy&utm_content=hhassault&fbclid=IwAR3jdKLUyTFDQZ5poUbZyEqDMSaAgsVg8Y4fnaL6hohKrl1acVml-0OZcdQ

Oh, did we forget chaos marines exist again?

Can't spoil the upcoming CSM codex....
But chances are...it's not in there!

even if not it'd be easy eneugh to "errata" that to allow chaos options. but yeah GW's refusal to give chaos rules for horus heresy era stuff strikes again

Any idea what the model silhouettes on the roadmap might be? Obviously the top one is the Deimos Rhino. Could the marine represent an upcoming mkV or re-imagined mkII plastic set?

I'd guess they're just the mkvi, given that the others are stuff we already have.

That kratos 40k datasheet sure is. . . horrible, lol. I mean, I knew it would be terrible, because GW absolutely hates SM tanks for some reason. At least it's not a lord of war, I guess? I'm still searching for some missing shots on the battle cannon armor pen mode.

Just compare this (or the Repulsor Executioner) to the Riptide or Stormsurge or Fire Prism and despair. I mean holy cow the difference in what you get for the points is astounding.

Oh well, it does look ridiculously cool, so I'll be getting it anyway.

Edit--okay looks like I misread the datasheet just a bit. You can swap the heavy bolters for lascannons for no additional cost, so that's 4 lascannons plus the main gun. Still a bit overpriced but not quite as bad as I first thought. Now it just makes the Repulsor Executioner look even worse than it already is (and it's horrific).

Quasistellar wrote:


Oh well, it does look ridiculously cool, so I'll be getting it anyway.

Edit--okay looks like I misread the datasheet just a bit. You can swap the heavy bolters for lascannons for no additional cost, so that's 4 lascannons plus the main gun. Still a bit overpriced but not quite as bad as I first thought. Now it just makes the Repulsor Executioner look even worse than it already is (and it's horrific).

I'll be building an all-Volkite version because a) I like Volkite weapons and b) The Emperor's Children need more Volkite support.

If I happen to get a second one, my Primaris Space Wolves will be the beneficiary of a all Laser Cannon tank hunter variant.

Voss wrote:

Smaug wrote:
Has anyone heard if there will be any more of the weapon upgrade kits? Something like a Breacher kit with shields, lascutters, and graviton guns or a Despoiler kit with bolt pistols, swords, and axes. Also will there be jump packs with either single nozzle like the Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard or the older twin jet turbine style? With the jump packs and a Despoiler kit it would take care of Assault squads and Destroyers would need a few more pistols and some rad-missile launchers.

We know there are more heavy weapons.

Assault marines and jump packs will be a new kit (unless they don't happen, which seems unlikely to me with the 'all-in' focus they're putting on HH). Jump packs are the harness, too, which gets modelled on the chest piece, and GW's very averse to 'tactical' legs and assault marines. More running or... sigh... jumping poses would be in the works.

It doesn’t look like FW sculpted harnesses on the MKIV assault marines or the MKV assault marines or make running legs for them. Although it looks the MKIV despoilers do have chest harnesses while the assault squad with packs don’t.


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 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'm just glad I don't live in a universe where they give us shoulder pads covered in divots (or plug holes) that we have to plug armour studs into by hand.

The scale models hobby knows crazier builds than that, albeit usually not in scales as small as our "28mm heroic". I can think of a lot of incredibly laborious assemblies in 1:35, all done in the name of uncompromising realism and scale accurary. We should count ourselves blessed that Forgeworld never embraced photoetched brass as a material

Forge World released a Epic Multipart Space Marine

Smaug wrote:
It doesn’t look like FW sculpted harnesses on the MKIV assault marines or the MKV assault marines or make running legs for them. Although it looks the MKIV despoilers do have chest harnesses while the assault squad with packs don’t.

The MKIV do (it's the uppermost solid plate), but it does look like the MKV don't. I've always wondered what kind of backpack they have under the jump pack...

 Gert wrote:
I'm very much liking that GW seems to be making very chunky books for army rules. The Crusade Imperialis book was really good in 1.0 with 3 armies in one and it's good to see that become the benchmark instead of spreading everything into 7 or 8 individual books.

I wish they could just do this. Print a 150$ book with every data sheet in the game, 1 each for 40K, AoS, HH. Just fill it full of data sheets, nothing else. People will buy it.

 Togusa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I'm very much liking that GW seems to be making very chunky books for army rules. The Crusade Imperialis book was really good in 1.0 with 3 armies in one and it's good to see that become the benchmark instead of spreading everything into 7 or 8 individual books.

I wish they could just do this. Print a 150$ book with every data sheet in the game, 1 each for 40K, AoS, HH. Just fill it full of data sheets, nothing else. People will buy it.

And on release day it would need errata the size of a regular codex

The 40k Kratos is a very durable fella. With 18W T8 eith 2+ save, Armor of Contempt, -1 to hit Strat due to Smokescreen, it seems like at least a big and solid distraction carnifex. 4 Lascans are quite a waste without <Core> which puts the Predator in a rough spot already, but using it for the sole spam of volkites, heavy bolters or other weird loadouts seems like a valid thing to do. Salamanders will love it during T2-3 Tactical Doctrine, having a Melter Maingun with 2 Flamers on it. I only wonder that the Battlecannon does not ignore Invulns in Armour Pen Mode.

Also, from pictures, the models seems to be tiny with 19cm length.

Also, as mentioned by others, it is weird that there is no CSM rule. Would buy one to make it spikey for sure. Especially weird considering they only advertise it in Sons of Horus colors. You know, THAT chaoter that screw up the imperium anyway

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I'm very much liking that GW seems to be making very chunky books for army rules. The Crusade Imperialis book was really good in 1.0 with 3 armies in one and it's good to see that become the benchmark instead of spreading everything into 7 or 8 individual books.

I wish they could just do this. Print a 150$ book with every data sheet in the game, 1 each for 40K, AoS, HH. Just fill it full of data sheets, nothing else. People will buy it.

And on release day it would need errata the size of a regular codex

Hear me out. What if, what if they let the player base spend six months beta testing it, so that it could all be fixed before it went to print.

 Togusa wrote:
Hear me out. What if, what if they let the player base spend six months beta testing it, so that it could all be fixed before it went to print.

So this is some magical universe where GW actually cares about rules quality huh

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Hear me out. What if, what if they let the player base spend six months beta testing it, so that it could all be fixed before it went to print.

So this is some magical universe where GW actually cares about rules quality huh

Sometimes we just have to let ourselves dream.

 Togusa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I'm very much liking that GW seems to be making very chunky books for army rules. The Crusade Imperialis book was really good in 1.0 with 3 armies in one and it's good to see that become the benchmark instead of spreading everything into 7 or 8 individual books.

I wish they could just do this. Print a 150$ book with every data sheet in the game, 1 each for 40K, AoS, HH. Just fill it full of data sheets, nothing else. People will buy it.

that'd be a little unwieldy for gaming sessions.

Voss wrote:
So that seems clear enough on the book side of things, but...

is that downward arrow new plastic kits every month 'til November (maybe longer), or really just a cluster for late july, august and early september and then resin shoulder pads and heads dropping in along the way?

Probably more of "when shipping permits but stuff keeps getting tied up so we're not committing to hard dates".

 Togusa wrote:
I wish they could just do this. Print a 150$ book with every data sheet in the game, 1 each for 40K, AoS, HH. Just fill it full of data sheets, nothing else. People will buy it.

Nah that's unreasonable. It would be completely unusable for games.
"Yeah just let me flip to page 1536 for the Silent Sisters rules."

They released the index books at the beginning of 8th edition which were good value

zanzibarthefirst wrote:
They released the index books at the beginning of 8th edition which were good value

Yes but the 8th Ed Indexes were a stopgap measure. The new HH books are the full package just like a Codex except much better.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Re: roadmap - still no clear indication of whether Blackshields or Shattered Legions will continue to have life. Shattered Legions *could* be in Liber Imperium, arguably, but Blackshields in Liber Imperium wouldn't make sense. Unless Shattered Legions/Blackshields are considered "Imperialis MIlitia & Warp Cults" (which i'm not sure I understand what that means), then they might not be supported anymore?

Blackshields are probably being saved for supplements. I hope those players get a PDF but their total silence on the subject makes me think they won't. At least you can get away with using Legion rules for now, even if it's not ideal and might be why they don't seem to be in a rush.

I don't think we'll get Shattered Legions in their last 'pick two flavours of slushie' form. It was very easily to make dumb, broken combinations that made a mess of the balance and didn't really achieve much in the way of fluffy armies that an Allied Detachment couldn't. My hot take is they'll release specific, fluffy combos like the in-universe Shattered Legions and maybe the Shadow Crusade as standalone things you can take rather than letting you make up whatever wombo combo you like.

Imperialis Militia & Warp Cults is just the long, full version of what people usually just refer to as the 'Militia' army.

I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

Current view is not limited as that's what GW said...but then again gw has said so for limited stuff before and they call this launch box which so far has 100% meant limited so...

Nobody can say for absolute certainly thanks to GW's history and use of words. You are most likely safe to wait but if you really really really want it might want to play it safe and get it while you can.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

Mate. You can’t just decide they’re lying.

There’s no evidence at all this is a limited run set. At all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

Mate. You can’t just decide they’re lying.

There’s no evidence at all this is a limited run set. At all.

Well, I didn't say there were for certain - I said they may be. It's not impossible. Also why I said the people at claiming it's not limited may be misinformed.

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
The 40k Kratos is a very durable fella. With 18W T8 eith 2+ save, Armor of Contempt, -1 to hit Strat due to Smokescreen, it seems like at least a big and solid distraction carnifex. 4 Lascans are quite a waste without <Core> which puts the Predator in a rough spot already, but using it for the sole spam of volkites, heavy bolters or other weird loadouts seems like a valid thing to do. Salamanders will love it during T2-3 Tactical Doctrine, having a Melter Maingun with 2 Flamers on it. I only wonder that the Battlecannon does not ignore Invulns in Armour Pen Mode.

Lack of CORE is a problem but not an unexpected one. Given the number of guns and its durability, it would almost be worth buying a Techmarine to babysit it. That will boost its BS to 2+ and you can patch up any wounds that do make it through the AoC.

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Also, as mentioned by others, it is weird that there is no CSM rule. Would buy one to make it spikey for sure. Especially weird considering they only advertise it in Sons of Horus colors. You know, THAT chaoter that screw up the imperium anyway

Sons of Horus don't exist any more in the 40K timeline, they are the Black Legion now. The SoH livery is for HH. I am pretty sure Chaos players will get the Kratos too. Who knows, maybe the reason there is no PDF is that it is already in the new forthcoming CSM Codex.

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

They have said multiple times it's something that will be supporting in an ongoing manner.

tneva82 wrote:Current view is not limited as that's what GW said...but then again gw has said so for limited stuff before and they call this launch box which so far has 100% meant limited so...

Nobody can say for absolute certainly thanks to GW's history and use of words. You are most likely safe to wait but if you really really really want it might want to play it safe and get it while you can.

blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

Thought so, many thanks... bit of a shame really.

To be honest, i am debating if i should get it, i always wanted to do an end of the horus heresy AL force during and slightly after the scouring. Nothing big and ramshakle, various MK of armor, loads of infantry, etc. Shame that the headhunterkillteams are still that ridiculously overpriced upgrade set.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

They have said multiple times it's something that will be supporting in an ongoing manner.

Well, then i have enough time, to get myself the legion books, and then consider buying in or not.
many thanks !

Heck I know I'm getting at least two personally just because the savings in infantry alone will help a fair bit in getting a legion started.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

Mate. You can’t just decide they’re lying.

There’s no evidence at all this is a limited run set. At all.

Well they use term that has been 100% times been limited.

If you take their word at 100% value then you have to accept they are saying both limited and not limited at the same time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

They have said multiple times it's something that will be supporting in an ongoing manner.

They have said wrong stuff before.

Could also mean they will support HH and there will be non limited boxes later. You know like every other time so far they have been talking about launch sets...

In short all we know for sure is that HH is going to stay around. If somebody claims he knows for sure whether this is limited box or not and isn't part of GW inside stuff(ie the people who actually decides this stuff) I can instantly point to person who is quaranteed to be lying.

If you want to be sure you get one and want it it's safer to get one while you can. If you don't mind taking bit of risk you can leave it later.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

Mate. You can’t just decide they’re lying.

There’s no evidence at all this is a limited run set. At all.

Well they use term that has been 100% times been limited.

If you take their word at 100% value then you have to accept they are saying both limited and not limited at the same time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

They have said multiple times it's something that will be supporting in an ongoing manner.

They have said wrong stuff before.

Could also mean they will support HH and there will be non limited boxes later. You know like every other time so far they have been talking about launch sets...

In short all we know for sure is that HH is going to stay around. If somebody claims he knows for sure whether this is limited box or not and isn't part of GW inside stuff(ie the people who actually decides this stuff) I can instantly point to person who is quaranteed to be lying.

If you want to be sure you get one and want it it's safer to get one while you can. If you don't mind taking bit of risk you can leave it later.

Stop upholding Cursed City as the standard of what happens to releases. FFS stop pushing a FOMO mindset on a product that's going to see ongoing support.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Stop upholding Cursed City as the standard of what happens to releases. FFS stop pushing a FOMO mindset on a product that's going to see ongoing support.

And Cursed City did eventually get an unlimited release and continued support is now coming anyway. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened with it but clearly the intent was to have it like that, so they weren't actively deceiving people.

I'm assuming its a limited launch box set(Indomitus, Dominon, Kill Team: Octarius), but it is possible it could be a long-runner like the other Heresy-era game Adeptus Titanicus where the launch set, the Grand Master Edition, keeps coming back for more print runs due to high demand.

Personally I wouldn't mind a smaller set for The Horus Heresy because I've always fancied a small Thousand Sons patrol with their pre-40K colour scheme. Its very nice.

deano2099 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Stop upholding Cursed City as the standard of what happens to releases. FFS stop pushing a FOMO mindset on a product that's going to see ongoing support.

And Cursed City did eventually get an unlimited release and continued support is now coming anyway. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened with it but clearly the intent was to have it like that, so they weren't actively deceiving people.

Exactly. The FOMO nonsense really needs to stop. Some people keep pushing that it "could" vanish at "any time" like they sell it on a commission.


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SamusDrake wrote:
I'm assuming its a limited launch box set(Indomitus, Dominon, Kill Team: Octarius), but it is possible it could be a long-runner like the other Heresy-era game Adeptus Titanicus where the launch set, the Grand Master Edition, keeps coming back for more print runs due to high demand.

Personally I wouldn't mind a smaller set for The Horus Heresy because I've always fancied a small Thousand Sons patrol with their pre-40K colour scheme. Its very nice.

They've said several times that it's not a limited release and that it is the box for the edition.

Nipped back to GW and ordered the Carta Galactica for Heresy and Necromunda.

I love me a good fake map, and my new place has a lot of wall space in need of suitable decoration.

zanzibarthefirst wrote:
They released the index books at the beginning of 8th edition which were good value

They were still split among 4 books of which two were just for the Imperium.

 Eldarsif wrote:

zanzibarthefirst wrote:
They released the index books at the beginning of 8th edition which were good value

They were still split among 4 books of which two were just for the Imperium.

And the first got superseded in about 3 weeks.

 Togusa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I'm very much liking that GW seems to be making very chunky books for army rules. The Crusade Imperialis book was really good in 1.0 with 3 armies in one and it's good to see that become the benchmark instead of spreading everything into 7 or 8 individual books.

I wish they could just do this. Print a 150$ book with every data sheet in the game, 1 each for 40K, AoS, HH. Just fill it full of data sheets, nothing else. People will buy it.

I'm the exact opposite. I hate huge expensive tombs that only have 5 paragraphs of rules I actually need to check on during any given game. If I'm just reading it for the fun of reading it, cool, but for actual games I'm happy with a few pamphlet sized rulebooks, summarised on a couple of quick reference cards.

My HH transfers arrived today, so they seem to be sending those out in advance of the pre-orders.

*Edit* to be clear, I had only ordered the transfers, my pre-order is with a separate supplier rather than GW directly.

Nice to see we've all moved on from suggesting GW have deliberately made kits from 2022 incompatible with kits from 2015 to suggesting that GW are straight up lying about the new Heresy box being a limited release or not.

 Slinky wrote:
My HH transfers arrived today, so they seem to be sending those out in advance of the pre-orders.

*Edit* to be clear, I had only ordered the transfers, my pre-order is with a separate supplier rather than GW directly.

My IW dice have been shipped aswell

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Slinky wrote:
My HH transfers arrived today, so they seem to be sending those out in advance of the pre-orders.

*Edit* to be clear, I had only ordered the transfers, my pre-order is with a separate supplier rather than GW directly.

My IW dice have been shipped aswell

As have my HH reaction tokens & cards freebies

This month's White Dwarf has the Zone Mortalis rules for HH2.0. You reckon the starter box minis will be a decent force for playing ZM with? 10 terminators, Contemptor, equip 10-20 beakies with special weapons, and so on?

 ekwatts wrote:
Nice to see we've all moved on from suggesting GW have deliberately made kits from 2022 incompatible with kits from 2015 to suggesting that GW are straight up lying about the new Heresy box being a limited release or not.

I'm not touching the special weapons thing with a 10 foot pole, but GW do have form for the "limited release or not" suspicion.

Cursed City was specifically said not to be a limited release by the GW social media team but a permanent item (like the previous Quests), then when it came up for pre-order they ran out of stock in a couple of hours (and stock for FLGS was very small), and responses were then 'Sorry, it's a limited release, that's all there is'. It then subsequently disappeared from the website entirely, and it basically got memory holed that it ever existed.

A *year later* it came back for a two week MTO run, and it's supposed to come back properly later this year.

So yes, warhammer community (not social media) have said that the AoD box is not limited, but they've also been wrong before many times on other articles (such as kit contents) that were subsequently quietly corrected. So not so much deliberate lying, but I can absolutely empathise with people not trusting GW 100% that it was going to continue to be easily available (if with a bit of a delay) after initial stock ran out. It's still available for pre-order for the 18th on GW proper and other places so looks fine so far, but dark sphere have their 'wave 2' pre-order of the AoD box currently listed as "Released: 6th August". Glad I got my pre-order in early!

Just to point out: it wasn't WarCom that said it wasn't limited, that came straight from the staffers on stream.

And the live stream was hosted on warcom... but fair enough.

 arkhanist wrote:
And the live stream was hosted on warcom... but fair enough.

It was actually hosted on the Warhammer Twitch channel with a direct feed on WarCom.

Christ, I'm looking forward to B&C coming back. My *point* was that it's more trustworthy than whatever the facebook team put out, given the latter seem to be as about as informed as the usual store manager. so that heresy remaining was more reliable than the cursed city statements -though a mistake was still possible. That the live stream is technically on a twitch backend I don't think alters that conclusion.

 tauist wrote:

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Slinky wrote:
My HH transfers arrived today, so they seem to be sending those out in advance of the pre-orders.

*Edit* to be clear, I had only ordered the transfers, my pre-order is with a separate supplier rather than GW directly.

My IW dice have been shipped aswell

As have my HH reaction tokens & cards freebies

This month's White Dwarf has the Zone Mortalis rules for HH2.0. You reckon the starter box minis will be a decent force for playing ZM with? 10 terminators, Contemptor, equip 10-20 beakies with special weapons, and so on?

There are no special weapons in the box, so if your criteria for "decent" requires them, the answer is no - but if you're okay with bolters and bayonets, then yes.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

Mate. You can’t just decide they’re lying.

There’s no evidence at all this is a limited run set. At all.

Well they use term that has been 100% times been limited.

If you take their word at 100% value then you have to accept they are saying both limited and not limited at the same time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I didn't catch it, but the "age of darkness box" isn't limited right?

GW has stated it is not limited - of course - GW may just be lying or the people saying this may be misinformed. All I will say is that it is better to buy this stuff sooner rather than later, because once it's out of production, buying it from another seller will not be cheap.

They have said multiple times it's something that will be supporting in an ongoing manner.

They have said wrong stuff before.

Could also mean they will support HH and there will be non limited boxes later. You know like every other time so far they have been talking about launch sets...

In short all we know for sure is that HH is going to stay around. If somebody claims he knows for sure whether this is limited box or not and isn't part of GW inside stuff(ie the people who actually decides this stuff) I can instantly point to person who is quaranteed to be lying.

If you want to be sure you get one and want it it's safer to get one while you can. If you don't mind taking bit of risk you can leave it later.

Stop upholding Cursed City as the standard of what happens to releases. FFS stop pushing a FOMO mindset on a product that's going to see ongoing support.

Here here. We know now that Cursed City was a victim of the world events of 2020.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 arkhanist wrote:

 ekwatts wrote:
Nice to see we've all moved on from suggesting GW have deliberately made kits from 2022 incompatible with kits from 2015 to suggesting that GW are straight up lying about the new Heresy box being a limited release or not.

I'm not touching the special weapons thing with a 10 foot pole, but GW do have form for the "limited release or not" suspicion.

Cursed City was specifically said not to be a limited release by the GW social media team but a permanent item (like the previous Quests), then when it came up for pre-order they ran out of stock in a couple of hours (and stock for FLGS was very small), and responses were then 'Sorry, it's a limited release, that's all there is'. It then subsequently disappeared from the website entirely, and it basically got memory holed that it ever existed.

A *year later* it came back for a two week MTO run, and it's supposed to come back properly later this year.

So yes, warhammer community (not social media) have said that the AoD box is not limited, but they've also been wrong before many times on other articles (such as kit contents) that were subsequently quietly corrected. So not so much deliberate lying, but I can absolutely empathise with people not trusting GW 100% that it was going to continue to be easily available (if with a bit of a delay) after initial stock ran out. It's still available for pre-order for the 18th on GW proper and other places so looks fine so far, but dark sphere have their 'wave 2' pre-order of the AoD box currently listed as "Released: 6th August". Glad I got my pre-order in early!

The real mystery is what was happening in the Spring of 2021 that might have impacted Cursed City? The world may never know, but I'm sick of wondering about what it Covid have been.

 arkhanist wrote:

 ekwatts wrote:
Nice to see we've all moved on from suggesting GW have deliberately made kits from 2022 incompatible with kits from 2015 to suggesting that GW are straight up lying about the new Heresy box being a limited release or not.

I'm not touching the special weapons thing with a 10 foot pole, but GW do have form for the "limited release or not" suspicion.

Cursed City was specifically said not to be a limited release by the GW social media team but a permanent item (like the previous Quests), then when it came up for pre-order they ran out of stock in a couple of hours (and stock for FLGS was very small), and responses were then 'Sorry, it's a limited release, that's all there is'. It then subsequently disappeared from the website entirely, and it basically got memory holed that it ever existed.

A *year later* it came back for a two week MTO run, and it's supposed to come back properly later this year.

So yes, warhammer community (not social media) have said that the AoD box is not limited, but they've also been wrong before many times on other articles (such as kit contents) that were subsequently quietly corrected. So not so much deliberate lying, but I can absolutely empathise with people not trusting GW 100% that it was going to continue to be easily available (if with a bit of a delay) after initial stock ran out. It's still available for pre-order for the 18th on GW proper and other places so looks fine so far, but dark sphere have their 'wave 2' pre-order of the AoD box currently listed as "Released: 6th August". Glad I got my pre-order in early!

Once bitten twice shy.

Or "trust, but check".

chaos0xomega wrote:

 tauist wrote:

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Slinky wrote:
My HH transfers arrived today, so they seem to be sending those out in advance of the pre-orders.

*Edit* to be clear, I had only ordered the transfers, my pre-order is with a separate supplier rather than GW directly.

My IW dice have been shipped aswell

As have my HH reaction tokens & cards freebies

This month's White Dwarf has the Zone Mortalis rules for HH2.0. You reckon the starter box minis will be a decent force for playing ZM with? 10 terminators, Contemptor, equip 10-20 beakies with special weapons, and so on?

There are no special weapons in the box, so if your criteria for "decent" requires them, the answer is no - but if you're okay with bolters and bayonets, then yes.

Umm, no, sorry, I mean I bought the box + special weapons kit with the 60 weapons so that I can use em on the 40 beakies.. Special weapon squads would work well in Zone Mortalis, right? I do know that Blood Angels tacticals with chain bayonets are also rad, but they need some complementary fire support..

 Togusa wrote:


The real mystery is what was happening in the Spring of 2021 that might have impacted Cursed City? The world may never know, but I'm sick of wondering about what it Covid have been.

Yes, that mystery thing that had been going on for 15 months by that point, a disease that apparently causes amnesia.

They *could* have said "Sorry, we thought we'd made enough to last for ages, so it wasn't intended as a limited release, but it turns out demand was far higher than expected, and we'll work on restocking as soon as we can." or "Given current circumstances, it will be a long while before we can can make any more, and we're sorry that some missed out. We'll make it extremely clear next time when it's a big release whether we'll be able to restock or do a MTO if it runs out."

But this mystery disease made GW marketing forget how to communicate in English, and actually made them pretend like it didn't even release at all, let alone explain why they called it a normal range release when they knew damn well that it was in fact limited.

Personally, I think they have been clear enough that HH AoD IS here to stay, but you can't pretend Cursed City didn't happen and didn't damage people's trust in GW 'big box' availability. And while we're at it - Indomitus. Stores were told how many they would get, accepted pre-orders on that basis, then that stock allocation was hugely cut, leaving stores holding the bag on pre-orders they couldn't fulfill - as well as the main GW site locking people out and selling out extremely quickly. In that case, they did MTO more in order to fix it, which was the right call.

Trust is much easier to destroy than build, and GW goes out of their way to be opaque about the realities of manufacturing and what their plans are to deal with them.

 ekwatts wrote:
Nice to see we've all moved on from suggesting GW have deliberately made kits from 2022 incompatible with kits from 2015 to suggesting that GW are straight up lying about the new Heresy box being a limited release or not.

Deliberately lying? Or make mistake and mix words. Not like they haven't done before...


And whether or not it's limited one phrase from them is wrong so under your logic and incorrect being deliberately lie they are deliberately lying. They can't not have lied one way or other. Limited they lied, not limited they lied.

 arkhanist wrote:
Trust is much easier to destroy than build

Seemingly the other way around when it comes to GW's fanbase though.

Anyway,

I was looking over the original rumors from earlier in the year/last fall. There is mention of plastic Vindicators. How likely is that do you all think?

 Togusa wrote:
Anyway,

I was looking over the original rumors from earlier in the year/last fall. There is mention of plastic Vindicators. How likely is that do you all think?

Considering we're getting a plastic Deimos rhino I fully expect all rhino chassis vehicles to come out in plastic eventually. It'll just be an extra sprue.

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Anyway,

I was looking over the original rumors from earlier in the year/last fall. There is mention of plastic Vindicators. How likely is that do you all think?

Considering we're getting a plastic Deimos rhino I fully expect all rhino chassis vehicles to come out in plastic eventually. It'll just be an extra sprue.

Probably two. It looks like they've done a universal sponson sprue, much like the hatch and pintle sprue is shared between the Rhino and Kratos.

So Rhino base+ sponson sprue +big guns. But I'd honestly expect predator/whirlwind and destroyer/vinidcator to have separate sprues as well (at minimum)

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Anyway,

I was looking over the original rumors from earlier in the year/last fall. There is mention of plastic Vindicators. How likely is that do you all think?

Considering we're getting a plastic Deimos rhino I fully expect all rhino chassis vehicles to come out in plastic eventually. It'll just be an extra sprue.

Hopefully that includes the Predator as well. Another model I would just love to see come to plastic is the Legion Medusa. There is just so much I hope shows up in Plastic, I'd kill for Rapiers, Fire Raptors, Dreadclaws, Land Raider Achilles, Xyphon, Scimitar Bikes, Javelins, the Dorito, Saber Tanks, A dual Fellblade/Glaive, Cerberus/Falchion kit, MASTODONS! The Arquitor. So much stuff I really would like to see.

You know what, just convert the entire game to plastic and I'll buy it.

I'm looking forward to the predator. The sprues for all the new vehicles seem very well laid out to have multiple versions of each base chassis.

Hmm, also in favor of the other variants, I just realized (at least in US$) the heresy Deimos Rhino is the least expensive version of the Rhino on the GW site. Despite the pretty amazing weapon sprue

That suggests (to me, at least) an economy of scale mass production (by comparison the Sisters Rhino is the most expensive), and are probably using it for more kits.

Voss wrote:
Hmm, also in favor of the other variants, I just realized (at least in US$) the heresy Deimos Rhino is the least expensive version of the Rhino on the GW site. Despite the pretty amazing weapon sprue

That suggests (to me, at least) an economy of scale mass production (by comparison the Sisters Rhino is the most expensive), and are probably using it for more kits.

There are a few Squat marine hold outs in my area that have gone nuts trying to get the new plastic deimos, so it doesn't surprise me. Of the 8 total stores in my region I could shop from, NONE of them have them or can get them until August at the earliest.

 Togusa wrote:

Voss wrote:
Hmm, also in favor of the other variants, I just realized (at least in US$) the heresy Deimos Rhino is the least expensive version of the Rhino on the GW site. Despite the pretty amazing weapon sprue

That suggests (to me, at least) an economy of scale mass production (by comparison the Sisters Rhino is the most expensive), and are probably using it for more kits.

There are a few Squat marine hold outs in my area that have gone nuts trying to get the new plastic deimos, so it doesn't surprise me. Of the 8 total stores in my region I could shop from, NONE of them have them or can get them until August at the earliest.

It sold out on the GW site as well. After the MK 3s and 4s, but before the Kratos and special weapons, iirc.

I think GW finally grasped what their customers wanted with this.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I'm looking forward to the predator. The sprues for all the new vehicles seem very well laid out to have multiple versions of each base chassis.

Yeah the new basic (universal?) Rhino chassis sprue is missing the top deck, forward glacis, and exterior door/sponson mounts. Those are all on a separate sprue that can be swapped out.
The Rhino carrier version seems to be a half-sprue but has relatively few bits. I fully expect the Predator and Vindicator variants to have full-size sprues for their turret/sponsons and main gun/armour plates respectively. Especially if the Vindicator comes with the lascannon array option.
Similar to that the Spartan and Proteus will have different middle sections of the sides, with different numbers of wheels.

I hope they go together as well as they look like they should.

Full set of deimos vehicles will be very nice, and seems a racing certainty with the new rhino sprue layout. The resin ones are still up though, so presumably it will be a while. Plastic laser destroyer vindi would be icing on the cake for me, though I'm sure we'll see a predator sooner.

I'd love some javelins, but definitely prefer to wait for a plastic version!

 arkhanist wrote:
Full set of deimos vehicles will be very nice, and seems a racing certainty with the new rhino sprue layout. The resin ones are still up though, so presumably it will be a while. Plastic laser destroyer vindi would be icing on the cake for me, though I'm sure we'll see a predator sooner.

I'd love some javelins, but definitely prefer to wait for a plastic version!

This was the only thing stopping from adding one or 2 to my Salamanders FW upgrade order.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 arkhanist wrote:
Trust is much easier to destroy than build

Seemingly the other way around when it comes to GW's fanbase though.

I don't know, the fanbase never lets GW live anything down. Just look how long they beat the dead horse named "Squats".

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 arkhanist wrote:
Trust is much easier to destroy than build

Seemingly the other way around when it comes to GW's fanbase though.

I don't know, the fanbase never lets GW live anything down. Just look how long they beat the dead horse named "Squats".

It became a very convinient word to refer to the process of removing a faction from the game.

 Togusa wrote:
Anyway,

I was looking over the original rumors from earlier in the year/last fall. There is mention of plastic Vindicators. How likely is that do you all think?

The side panels on the Deimos sprue have a section for either the circular door (on a seperate spure), but an armoured panel for a Vindicator or a predator sponson connection could be added into that gap easily:


Plus by putting the side panel insert and top panel on the same sprue it makes swapping things around for turrets or other details easier as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 arkhanist wrote:
Trust is much easier to destroy than build

Seemingly the other way around when it comes to GW's fanbase though.

I don't know, the fanbase never lets GW live anything down. Just look how long they beat the dead horse named "Squats".

It became a very convinient word to refer to the process of removing a faction from the game.

I wasn't even talking about the use of "Squatted". I meant just asking about Squats at every opportunity.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I wasn't even talking about the use of "Squatted". I meant just asking about Squats at every opportunity.

Apparently that paid off. Same for Sisters.

And now, look. After just a couple years of people worrying about the fate and removal of old-style marines in the face of primaris, I'm just going to gesture to all this...
And the more and more that'll be coming.

Voss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I wasn't even talking about the use of "Squatted". I meant just asking about Squats at every opportunity.

Apparently that paid off. Same for Sisters.

And now, look. After just a couple years of people worrying about the fate and removal of old-style marines in the face of primaris, I'm just going to gesture to all this...
And the more and more that'll be coming.

Firstborn aren't being removed, they're just being moved.

From 40k to 30k.

Feel free to gesture away.

You can't move Mk 7 Firstborn into 30k! How many times does it need to be said?

How much Mk.VII was around during the Horus Heresy? Was Mk.VIII a post-Heresy thing?

From memory, MkVII was created towards the end of the Heresy, with MkVIII coming shortly after the Heresy finished.

MkVII would be limited to Siege of Terra and the forces there

So limited to Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars

Additionally, the unit organization of Firstborn marines isn't at all compatible with the Heresy, to say nothing of canonically postwar units like the LR Crusader, Predator Annihilator, Razorback, Centurions, etc.

I have no issue with GW moving all Firstborn units into Legends, but shoving them at the Heresy, as if they'd be welcome or usable there, is completely untenable to both Firstborn and (I believe) Heresy players.

the unit organisation does not matter, the first HH plastic model boxes were made to match the 40k unit organisation

and adding new vehicles that are actually long lost tech or STK that was found during the heresy and lost later, as well as combat modifications done by the marines is no problem either
if GW wants to do it, they do it

I'm down for them moving FB to a "Scouring" adaptation of 30K.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
You can't move Mk 7 Firstborn into 30k! How many times does it need to be said?

Why not? There were mkvii's in HH. Not in huge quantities but on the HH game scales easily passable.

Plus we are talking about GW. You know? The guy who owns the game universum. They can write anything they so wish. Tiny amount of mkviii's were already out? Totally in their right and again with tiny skirmish scale of HH games it wouldn't even be every mkviii armour in use. Predator annihilator? GW can just write it it was forgotten after HH and wolves reinvented it later.

They own the game. They can write sisters of silence as the main forces of HH instead of marines if they so wish...

What's the point of discussing anything in the first place even, in that case?

And what about everybody's custom chapters and paintjobs? You know, the things they've spent tens or hundreds of hours painstakingly realizing? Are they all just Imperial Fists in really cunning camouflage now? Or should everyone be forced to repaint? Maybe for you that's no big deal, I don't know. I was under the impression that Heresy players cared about their backstory a fair bit, which is why they keep arguing whether or not Mk6 spacewombles are appropriate for all legions.

No. I'd rather my Mk7 units be removed from the game entirely. Retcon them out of existence wholesale while they're at it. Just leave a big wad of [REDACTED] in the Marines' history between the end of the Heresy and the Ultima Founding.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And what about everybody's custom chapters and paintjobs? You know, the things they've spent tens or hundreds of hours painstakingly realizing?

They get the opportunity to buy and paint 2 new armies
One Primaris Army for 40k and another one (MkVI) for HH

This will be the best time every or every dedicated hobbyist, and GW will het enough people to advertise it as the best thing ever to convince everyone (and if not, you can still play something else, GW does not care as you don't buy a new army anyway)

As far as Marines are concerned, there are basically three main eras, each with fairly different forces being fielded: Great Crusade/Heresy, Scouring to Ultima Founding, and post-Ultima Founding ("the present").

A problem GW has is that the Marine codex lets you take stuff from all three of these eras (only a smattering of "Relic" units from the Heresy, granted). Personally I think it a shame if the ability to play lists set in that intermediate period is taken away. GW could do it, as tneva82 points out, but I don't think they could do it *well*. It would just overall suck for all concerned. That being said, I don't expect the game rules or armylists to be compatible with more than the nebulous "now".

So, for that "now", maybe the answer is consolidating Firstborn into a specific Legends unit entry, like slightly expanded versions of Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans, representing those holdovers from older Marine batches who aren't compatible with the new augmentations and wargear for various reasons. By 11th edition (around 2026 or so?), enough turnover among hobbyists will have happened that this too could be dropped.

I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn. the fact is the HH just gives Firstborn in 40K a MASSIVE shot in the arm as now suddenly GW is producing tons of kits that can be used for them. even if we accept that the MK VI tac squad kit isn't exactly "ideal" for 40k. we have the kratos, and a new rhino.

And it should be noted that vehcles where the oldest firstborn kits. if we suddeenly get Dmios pattern rhino chassis kits that gives a BIIIIG shot in the arm to first born longivity

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Far as I know, the only person here who definitely wants First Born's shuffled off this mortal coil is Crimson.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Who knows why madmen do what they do?

Any guesses to what we may see today? Plastic Proteus Land Raider? Despoiler Upgrade Kit?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Bet you'd find a few on this forum if you looked hard enough.

I think probably the Proteus, since influencers already inferred its existence looking at the sprues in their Spartans, and we got those grainy leaked pics.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for some unknown infantry since we've already seen a pretty big cornucopia of plastic vehicles. Despoiler or Assault Squads would both be more than welcome, I'm sure.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?
Far as I know, the only person here who definitely wants First Born's shuffled off this mortal coil is Crimson.

Me too, simply because it is the best for the player in the long run

als long as Old Marines exists as playbale force within 40k, you need to buy Primaris and Marines to get everything.
remove Marines, and playing a proxy Primaris army with you exisiting collection is not a problem because no one can confuse them with something else
also you get less internal balance problem as they don't need hundreds of datasheets to cover every single Marine option that is still out there

in addition, using the plastic HH as proxy Primaris is much easier than using them as proxy Marines

it might hurt first but in the long run it would be better (it would have been better if GW went straight into "Marine models are replace by Truescale Marine models instead of this mix that caused more problems than it ever can solve)

It's also important to remember that the average 40k player only collects their marines for an edition or two before leaving the hobby ("growing up and discovering girls", as the tired joke goes), so catering to longbeards is economically fairly meaningless.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
It's also important to remember that the average 40k player only collects their marines for an edition or two before leaving the hobby ("growing up and discovering girls", as the tired joke goes), so catering to longbeards is economically fairly meaningless.

That's true, after a fashion. Because many come back later in their lives. We actually got told both during orientations, plus "...and half of the time, they bring their children too".

but if you return later on, you have to buy a new marine army anyway because of all the changes that happened
so having old Marines around makes no sense other to force current players to by Primaris if they want to use them

 kodos wrote:
but if you return later on, you have to buy a new marine army anyway because of all the changes that happened
so having old Marines around makes no sense other to force current players to by Primaris if they want to use them

Well, don't know about that. Everything that marines got twenty years ago, they still have it, except very specific things like... dunno, bike chaplains or the like?

I don't think you'd need to buy a full new army if you didn't want to.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Far as I know, the only person here who definitely wants First Born's shuffled off this mortal coil is Crimson.

No, me too. All primaris all the way.

 Albertorius wrote:

 kodos wrote:
but if you return later on, you have to buy a new marine army anyway because of all the changes that happened
so having old Marines around makes no sense other to force current players to by Primaris if they want to use them

Well, don't know about that. Everything that marines got twenty years ago, they still have it, except very specific things like... dunno, bike chaplains or the like?
I don't think you'd need to buy a full new army if you didn't want to.

to get my 3rd Edition Space Wolves legal in 9th I can as well just buy into Primaris would make no difference

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And what about everybody's custom chapters and paintjobs? You know, the things they've spent tens or hundreds of hours painstakingly realizing? Are they all just Imperial Fists in really cunning camouflage now? Or should everyone be forced to repaint? Maybe for you that's no big deal, I don't know. I was under the impression that Heresy players cared about their backstory a fair bit, which is why they keep arguing whether or not Mk6 spacewombles are appropriate for all legions.

No. I'd rather my Mk7 units be removed from the game entirely. Retcon them out of existence wholesale while they're at it. Just leave a big wad of [REDACTED] in the Marines' history between the end of the Heresy and the Ultima Founding.

What to do with squatted Firstborn in 40K? Play an earlier edition. Problem solved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
It's also important to remember that the average 40k player only collects their marines for an edition or two before leaving the hobby ("growing up and discovering girls", as the tired joke goes), so catering to longbeards is economically fairly meaningless.

Unless the longbeard fully matures into a whale. Take a look into the video game sphere. Players spent 10K bucks on a single account. GW want to have access to these big spenders too.

Why are some people so desperate to get rid of original Space Marines? Why is this even a topic for discussion in the 30k thread?

 blood reaper wrote:
Why are some people so desperate to get rid of original Space Marines? Why is this even a topic for discussion in the 30k thread?

Why discuss it here, someone suggested have 30k as a sphere people could use there old marines in means it wouldn’t hurt as bad if they got rid of old Marines in 40k, you could still use them. Hence why it’s being discussed. Is it going to happen, probably not.

As for why I want rid of old marines, that’s a topic for a different thread, but I wouldn’t say I am “desperate”, I just think it makes sense and would be a good move.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Far as I know, the only person here who definitely wants First Born's shuffled off this mortal coil is Crimson.

It's not that I particularly want that, but the current amount of marine datasheets and them being divided into two slightly different and mildly incompatible categories is a mess. I feel at some point it would be clearer if in 40K the primaris/non-primaris divide was removed;* it would just be assumed that all marines are primaris now, and datasheets would be consolidated. This would probably be mostly around primaris units, but people could use whichever models they want for them.

Though this made more sense when all the non-primaris kits were old and terribly proportioned, and it seemed likely GW would eventually phase them out. Now that they're committed to making new and decent looking non-primaris marines for HH, it makes certain sense to keep the rules for using them in 40K.

And if the non-primaris are to stay ion 40K, I really wish the minimise the incompatibility, allowing them to share transports etc. The current situation is super annoying.

(* It was a bad call in the first place to make the primaris to be some sort of different type of marine, instead of just being new marks of armour and other gear.)

 arkhanist wrote:

 ekwatts wrote:
Nice to see we've all moved on from suggesting GW have deliberately made kits from 2022 incompatible with kits from 2015 to suggesting that GW are straight up lying about the new Heresy box being a limited release or not.

I'm not touching the special weapons thing with a 10 foot pole, but GW do have form for the "limited release or not" suspicion.

Cursed City was specifically said not to be a limited release by the GW social media team but a permanent item (like the previous Quests), then when it came up for pre-order they ran out of stock in a couple of hours (and stock for FLGS was very small), and responses were then 'Sorry, it's a limited release, that's all there is'. It then subsequently disappeared from the website entirely, and it basically got memory holed that it ever existed.

A *year later* it came back for a two week MTO run, and it's supposed to come back properly later this year.

So yes, warhammer community (not social media) have said that the AoD box is not limited, but they've also been wrong before many times on other articles (such as kit contents) that were subsequently quietly corrected. So not so much deliberate lying, but I can absolutely empathise with people not trusting GW 100% that it was going to continue to be easily available (if with a bit of a delay) after initial stock ran out. It's still available for pre-order for the 18th on GW proper and other places so looks fine so far, but dark sphere have their 'wave 2' pre-order of the AoD box currently listed as "Released: 6th August". Glad I got my pre-order in early!

I think the situation with this is a bit different because the HH is the starter box for a whole system. They clearly intended to keep Cursed City in stock and something happened (yeah probably pandemic related with the cards printed in China) - hence a year later we have it again. Had they intended it to be a limited run, we'd have a different Warhammer Quest game at this point. Especially given the pretty negative reaction the actual *game* got compared to Blackstone Fortress. So the intent was for it to be kept in stock, they couldn't do that for whatever reason, so we ended up with no new Warhammer Quest for a year. Not a big deal.

The intent is for this to be a starter set for a new system. This means there are not other starter sets planned to come out in a few months. This is it. So while it's not impossible that they've underproduced and this goes out of stock, if it does they've killed the launch of their new system line as soon as it was born. All the marketing they've planned will be wasted as there's nothing to sell new players. Yes, that's what happened with Cursed City, but no-one gave a crap because it just meant they needed to swap out a few planned White Dwarf articles because no-one really cares about Warhammer Quest. They're not going to make that sort of mistake with something this big.

And every time they have used term launch set it's been limited...They could have used term starter set if it's starter set and not launch set.

One way or other GW is flat out saying incorrect thing.

Well. Get one while you can if you really want or wait accepting there's possibility you might not get one later. Whichever suits you.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Specifically regarding OG marines? No idea personally. But I do know that there is a kind of person for whom Being Right is vastly more important than whatever it is that they are right about. Even, yes, if it’s to their own detriment. It seems bizarre to me but there you go; people gonna people. After all, isn’t that what the whole Heresy is about? People being people no matter how much you nerve-staple them.

There's noo way GW is going to legend firstborn. They are a classic brand within the franchise. It's like if Coka Cola stopped selling their red glass bottles with the red labels. Get over yourself.

Retro/Nostalghia is a huge seller in the whole gaming industry. GW isn't stupid to ignore a cash cow like that.

We got the MKVI "truescaled" in honour of their 35th birthday. I'm sure we will be seeing MKVII get a similar treatment when they turn 35

 tauist wrote:
There's noo way GW is going to legend firstborn. They are a classic brand within the franchise. It's like if Coka Cola stopped selling their red glass bottles with the red labels. Get over yourself.

Retro/Nostalghia is a huge seller in the whole gaming industry. GW isn't stupid to ignore a cash cow like that.

We got the MKVI "truescaled" in honour of their 35th birthday. I'm sure we will be seeing MKVII get a similar treatment when they turn 35

I agree with crimson that it would be simpler and I think a good idea but I don’t think it will ever happen and I am not out campaigning for it.

Can we talk about heresy instead now?

Has anyone done a write up of the zone mortalis rules from white dwarf? I've not been able to find one or get to a shop. Thinking it will be a good way to get playing quickly when the new edition drops and everyone is busy getting their armies ready

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How much Mk.VII was around during the Horus Heresy? Was Mk.VIII a post-Heresy thing?

WD Article from #369 says:

Very limitled "test run" use on both sides during the Siege of Terra. Larger "pre series" production during the Scouring. Mass production after the "restructuring of the Legions".

FW wrote:Choose your side and get ready to unleash the might of the Mechanicum in Warhammer: The Horus Heresy. Learn more about their new army book here: https://bit.ly/3aIfTZS

That trait looks bonkers, double reactions and massive buffs during enemy turn for the small price of one HQ being a non-combatant during your turn?

No Scoria? Unless he's in the appendix under Persona Schismata?

 tauist wrote:
There's noo way GW is going to legend firstborn. They are a classic brand within the franchise. It's like if Coka Cola stopped selling their red glass bottles with the red labels. Get over yourself.

Retro/Nostalghia is a huge seller in the whole gaming industry. GW isn't stupid to ignore a cash cow like that.

We got the MKVI "truescaled" in honour of their 35th birthday. I'm sure we will be seeing MKVII get a similar treatment when they turn 35

Coke doesn't typically come in glass bottles in the US.

Good stuff. Disappointed to see the Ordo Reductor doesn't appear in the book nor the Minotaur. The Arlatax making appearance is a surprise considering it has no model at present

Wellp, thats a nail in the coffin of any rumors about 40k Mechanicus being ported over to 30k Mechanicum.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Who knows why madmen do what they do?

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Personally, I hope the firstborn get squatted because I just like Primaris better and think that having firstborn and primaris marines in the same codex is creating balance issues for both. So somethings gotta give, and its not primaris marines.

 tauist wrote:
There's noo way GW is going to legend firstborn. They are a classic brand within the franchise. It's like if Coka Cola stopped selling their red glass bottles with the red labels. Get over yourself.
Retro/Nostalghia is a huge seller in the whole gaming industry. GW isn't stupid to ignore a cash cow like that.
We got the MKVI "truescaled" in honour of their 35th birthday. I'm sure we will be seeing MKVII get a similar treatment when they turn 35

Yep, and that classic brand within the franchise now has a place in Horus Heresy, aka "Space Marines: the Tabletop Game" whereas Primaris marines have space to become the new brand for the modern face of the franchise in 40k, similar to how the classic brand known as Warhammer Fantasy Battle got killed off and replaced with Age of Sigmar, except this time GW was smart enough to implement the "old folks home" (i.e. HH) before axing the classic brand, unlike the WHFB approach of axing the setting and introducing the new brand and then developing the old folks home later (i.e. The Old World).

I don't know much about HH Mechanicum but just by comparing to current Forgeworld kits there are no Secutarii, no Termite Assault Drill and both Dark Mechanicum characters are missing.
(Characters might be hidden in the Persona Schismata)

 Matrindur wrote:
I don't know much about HH Mechanicum but just by comparing to current Forgeworld kits there are no Secutarii, no Termite Assault Drill and both Dark Mechanicum characters are missing.

Yeah - unless they're hidden in the Appendix.

Persona Schismata might be where the characters are.

 Matrindur wrote:
I don't know much about HH Mechanicum but just by comparing to current Forgeworld kits there are no Secutarii, no Termite Assault Drill and both Dark Mechanicum characters are missing.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the Termite quietly got the axe because tournament folks like goonhammer push it so hard as the default transport for chaos armies in 40k.

Voss wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
I don't know much about HH Mechanicum but just by comparing to current Forgeworld kits there are no Secutarii, no Termite Assault Drill and both Dark Mechanicum characters are missing.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the Termite quietly got the axe because tournament folks like goonhammer push it so hard as the default transport for chaos armies in 40k.

But Marines can still use it, thats what confuses me the most about that

I'm not crazy, am I? The Macrocarid Explorator isn't there, right?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm not crazy, am I? The Macrocarid Explorator isn't there, right?

Legacy unit PDF probably. No mini no rules again.

Yeah, where is the explorator? Mine’s sitting on my shelf right now, looking sad….

Did they discontinue the model?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
No mini no rules again.

But... but it has a mini! I've got one!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
No mini no rules again.

But... but it has a mini! I've got one!

Can you find it on the Forge World site? I thought it got discontinued a while back.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
No mini no rules again.

But... but it has a mini! I've got one!

Sorry buddy, no refunds.

Billicus wrote:
Can we talk about heresy instead now?

Has anyone done a write up of the zone mortalis rules from white dwarf? I've not been able to find one or get to a shop. Thinking it will be a good way to get playing quickly when the new edition drops and everyone is busy getting their armies ready

WD 477 with the zone mortalis rules isn't out yet - it goes to retail on the 17th, though subscribers may have it this weekend.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
No mini no rules again.

But... but it has a mini! I've got one!

Can you find it on the Forge World site? I thought it got discontinued a while back.

it was discontinued a while ago. Moulding problems were rumoured why it was pulled. Similar to the Ordinatus Saggitar which isn't listed either

I think it's a fairly safe bet the Liber Mechanicum won't have any models associated with it. It was always an extreme long shot, and since the article makes no mention of anything of the sort, I've already placed a small wager on it.

Talk about underwhelming Heresy Thursday since we already know Liber Mechanicum is coming.
Was really hoping to see Exodus or even Corswain finally, so close to release.
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

 Gordy2000 wrote:
Yeah, where is the explorator? Mine’s sitting on my shelf right now, looking sad….

Did they discontinue the model?

It went LCTB in the great culling....

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Gordy2000 wrote:
Yeah, where is the explorator? Mine’s sitting on my shelf right now, looking sad….

Did they discontinue the model?

It went LCTB in the great culling....

Too bad it isn't one of the models being ported to plastic and 40k like all the marine vehicles.

Totally not feeling vindicated that reactions are bad, at all...

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Too bad it isn't one of the models being ported to plastic and 40k like all the marine vehicles.

There are rumours of a plastic Mechanicum vehicle, alongside Thallax, Castellax and the Thanatar.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wellp, thats a nail in the coffin of any rumors about 40k Mechanicus being ported over to 30k Mechanicum.

Wasn't there an official statement that they want to port 40k Mechanicus Stuff for 30k Mechanicum?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Balerion wrote:
Talk about underwhelming Heresy Thursday since we already know Liber Mechanicum is coming.
Was really hoping to see Exodus or even Corswain finally, so close to release.
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

Was hoping for another plastic kit announcement... Predator or Assault Squad...

RazorEdge wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wellp, thats a nail in the coffin of any rumors about 40k Mechanicus being ported over to 30k Mechanicum.

Wasn't there an official statement that they want to port 40k Mechanicus Stuff for 30k Mechanicum?

I have one word for you...Cyraxis

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I think it's a fairly safe bet the Liber Mechanicum won't have any models associated with it. It was always an extreme long shot, and since the article makes no mention of anything of the sort, I've already placed a small wager on it.

The arlatax doesnt have a model yet, but is listed in the FA section. So model must be coming

Well, plastic models not being mentioned doesn’t mean plastic models aren’t coming.

I suspect they may be a bit down the track, as not unjustifiably it’s Marines O’clock for Heresy.

Bobug wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I think it's a fairly safe bet the Liber Mechanicum won't have any models associated with it. It was always an extreme long shot, and since the article makes no mention of anything of the sort, I've already placed a small wager on it.

The arlatax doesnt have a model yet, but is listed in the FA section. So model must be coming

Isn't the Arlatax kinda/sorta the basis for the Domitar robots?

RazorEdge wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wellp, thats a nail in the coffin of any rumors about 40k Mechanicus being ported over to 30k Mechanicum.

Wasn't there an official statement that they want to port 40k Mechanicus Stuff for 30k Mechanicum?

Not that I know of, I only ever saw people wishlist for that. As far as what we know now goes, its not happening anytime soon otherwise it would have been in this book.

The community team has been stating that some stuff such as Skitarii and Secutarii are under the "Appendices" for Mechanicum.

So I found a nice comparison pic of the MK VI MKIII and MK IV armors


over all I think mixed MK VI and MK III armies will be pretty much unnoticable on a scale front

I don't know what optical illusion is making the Mk3 look taller but he's not.

It's also that one specific MkVI model that is taller than the rest due to the pose. It's not in the combat squat most other Marines are so it looks taller, like the Deathwatch and Rubrics.

BrianDavion wrote:
So I found a nice comparison pic of the MK VI MKIII and MK IV armors


over all I think mixed MK VI and MK III armies will be pretty much unnoticable on a scale front

I wonder what the whole thought process was behind all of this from the company leadership?

Initially I had thought that BaC and BoP were just board games set in the HH. At the time, it really seemed as though there was going to be a big push for them to break into the board game market. Later, I started to suspect that maybe they wanted to bring Horus Heresy into plastic, now obviously we are right. But it begs the question, why didn't they rescale the Mk III and IV marines from the get go? And, the follow-up question is, will they do it in the future?

There is so much uncertainty in there that I don't think I'll mess with the Mk III or IV for quite a while until there is reasonable certainty that they aren't going to be rescaled.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And what about everybody's custom chapters and paintjobs? You know, the things they've spent tens or hundreds of hours painstakingly realizing? Are they all just Imperial Fists in really cunning camouflage now?

Why not? I'm all for people running their Marine armies as whatever rules fit what they wanted to build. No reason to punish someone for having picked the wrong color scheme.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, plastic models not being mentioned doesn’t mean plastic models aren’t coming.

I suspect they may be a bit down the track, as not unjustifiably it’s Marines O’clock for Heresy.

If you've ever seen TTSD, this reminds me of that one tech priest.

"There may still be a bike in the shed. But so far, we do not know until it is confirmed."

the answer is "a new design philophesy" it's pretty clear that around the time 8th edition 40K came out GW changed their design philophsy for space marines. going from the "classic" design approuch, to one with slightly better proportions and intergrated legs and torsos.

Read Goonhammer's review of the core rules, and wow, it sounds very good indeed. Basically what 8th edition 40k should have been; builds on the core 40k ruleset, with psychology being a big deal like in 3rd edition, but the reactions allow for some more counterplay rather than a full activation system which scales terribly. If someone makes a playable eldar list for this ruleset it I'm all in. Will probably give it a go with my guard once a list for them comes out too. Absolutely love that they're sticking with 6x4 for table size too.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I don't know what optical illusion is making the Mk3 look taller but he's not.

Its a combination of the dropped shoulder on the mk6 and the backpack on the mk3. The top of the left shoulder is at neck height, while the right is at 'ear' height, so the models to each side are at different 'shoulder heights.'
The mk3's backpack goes above the top of his head, while the mk4 is even so its kind of a 'cobra hood' effect that makes the model look 'bigger.'

The respective gorgets may play into it as well.

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So I found a nice comparison pic of the MK VI MKIII and MK IV armors

over all I think mixed MK VI and MK III armies will be pretty much unnoticable on a scale front

I wonder what the whole thought process was behind all of this from the company leadership?
Initially I had thought that BaC and BoP were just board games set in the HH. At the time, it really seemed as though there was going to be a big push for them to break into the board game market. Later, I started to suspect that maybe they wanted to bring Horus Heresy into plastic, now obviously we are right. But it begs the question, why didn't they rescale the Mk III and IV marines from the get go? And, the follow-up question is, will they do it in the future?
There is so much uncertainty in there that I don't think I'll mess with the Mk III or IV for quite a while until there is reasonable certainty that they aren't going to be rescaled.

The idea that BaC and BoP were attempts at breaking into the board game market was a bad take, those were not "board gamers board games" and everything about them from the contents and the minis, to the not particularly great rules, to the marketing around it was built around the idea of pushing plastic to miniatures gamers with an eye towards lowering barriers to entry into 30k.

They didn't rescale the mk3 and mk4 marines because that wasn't their design paradigm and style at the time that they released. Calth was released in 2015. Prospero was released in 2016. Bigmarines didn't really come about until after 8th edition, starting with the Death Guard and Primaris minis in Dark Imperium starter for 8th edition in 2017 - even still plague marines have always been represented as being larger than typical space marines in the fluff, and Primaris are likewise meant to be a bit larger. Prior to that the Deathwatch marines and Thousand Sons Rubric marine kits released and they were ever so slightly taller and more upright than the preceeding marine miniatures, alongside the 6th edition Dark Vengeance starter chosen (which is excusable by the fact that Chosen were juiced up on chaos magic that made them bigger), but it was barely noticeable and not truly bigmarine style the way the new Mk6 minis are.

It wasn't until sometime later that they indirectly released the first truly bigmarine style firstborn miniatures by way of the space marine heroes gachapon minis and a couple one-off limited minis. The first truly resized firstborn marines (2019 chaos marines notwithstanding) in the regular miniatures range are Castellan Crowe who released last year (alongside Fafnir Rann and Dominion Zephon, but I think those ended up being limited edition?) and the new HH MkVI stuff coming out next week. Hell, even the still very new Age of Sigmars Stormcast Eternals are being rescaled as of the new edition that released last year - the new Stormcast Eternals minis, referred to as wearing "Thunderstrike Armor" to justify the noticeable size and aesthetic differences from the Stormcast minis released just a couple years prior, are similarly taller and less chunky than the preceding minis in the Stormcast range. This is a very new trend for GW that only kicked into effect within the past couple years - so basically, they didn't do it because it wasn't a thing at the time.

As for Mk3 and Mk4 minis being resized - they will do it eventually I think, but I'd guess you will have to wait at least another 3-5 years minimum for that to happen. The Mk3 and Mk4 molds are still relatively new, those kits are all of 6-7 years old at this point. Typically GW only redoes kits once the molds useful life wears out (unless the older sculpt is absolutely horrid to the point that they struggle to sell them - see also: plastic Contemptor), which on average takes between 10-20 years unless its a very hot seller (tactical marines, assault marines, devastator marines, etc. have been redone on like 5-10 year intervals because of this). The Mk3 and Mk4 kits never sold quite as well as the regular mk7/8 marines kits because outside of BaC/BoP their availability was fairly limited (and even BaC/BoP were themselves somewhat limited in their availability), so those molds probably still have some good life left in them. Being fairly recent, there is little incentive for GW to invest into redoing them when they could instead produce Mk2/5 kits, alongside a growing range of vehicles and specialists (assault marines, breacher marines, destroyers, bikers, etc.) in various patterns and marks of armor in the meantime which will sell far better. The sales figures on the 3s and 4s are probably still good and will justify continued production on the existing molds for some time before the cost-curve bends in favor of a resculpted kit.

That being said, its silly to "wait until there is reasonable certainty". By the time you have that reasonable certainty (which I'm guessing is after you see them release mk2, mk 5, deimos predators, vindicators, breacher marines, assault marines, outriders, scimitar jetbikes, javelin land speeders, saturnine terminators, etc. etc. etc. in plastic), mk 3 and 4 resculpts will probably be the only thing left for them to release and next on the slate. Based on the Stormcast Eternals situation with the thunderstrike armor - keepig in mind that they released entirely new units in that style but have not resculpted a single one of the existing minis to match it in the year since release, and also keeping in mind that the original stormcast kits are about the same vintage as the Mk3/4 kits - and also keeping in mind that they just reboxed mk3 and 4 marines into 20-man kits, you aren't going to see resculpts of Mk3 and Mk4 for at least another year at an absolute minimum. In reality it will probably be a good few years longer than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: Scale Comparisons to Mk3 and 4, I've been working from the comparison photos here: https://taleofpainters.com/2022/05/scale-comparison-mkvi-horus-heresy-space-marine-legionaries/?force_isolation=true

The Mk3 marine looks like it stands up well to the Mk6 marine, drawing reference lines across these guys in photoshop, the mk3 marine looks to be only about 1mm shorter than the Mk6 - the backpacks are at the same hieght, the top of the heads are very close, the top of the mk3s eyes are at the same height as the bottom of the mk6 marines eyes, the neckline is about 1-1.5mm lower. Crotch height on the mk3 is about a mm below crotch height on the mk6, but that might be overstated by the fact that there is a plate in the way on the mk3 which is making the crotch look lower, its entirely possible crotch height is almost identical in reality. All in all, these both look like marines that can coexist side by side given natural height variation (it only gets a bit weird when you realize that all the dudes in the one armor type are taller than all the dudes in the other armor type - but maybe its the difference between terran born and homeworld marines). The only major difference in height is from the shoulder pads, which are off about 2-3mm between them, but thats explainable by differences in armor construction and plate thickness, etc.

The Mk4 marine on the other hand... the top of the mk4s eye is about 1-2mm lower than the bottom of the mk3s eyes, putting it about 3mm shorter than the mk6. The backpack is about 5mm shorter than the m3/6, and the neckline is similarly situated between 3-5mm lower (hard to tell from photo because its blocked by the bolter). I think the difference between the 4 and 6 might be too much to look the other way on without some clever modeling to make them seem a bit taller (put them on a thicker/more dramatic base, etc.).

Fafnir Rann is GW store exclusive but still avalaible.

Ielthan wrote:
Read Goonhammer's review of the core rules, and wow, it sounds very good indeed. Basically what 8th edition 40k should have been; builds on the core 40k ruleset, with psychology being a big deal like in 3rd edition, but the reactions allow for some more counterplay rather than a full activation system which scales terribly. If someone makes a playable eldar list for this ruleset it I'm all in. Will probably give it a go with my guard once a list for them comes out too. Absolutely love that they're sticking with 6x4 for table size too.

More like what 7th edition should have been but, yeah. Core rules seems fine.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Re: Scale Comparisons to Mk3 and 4, I've been working from the comparison photos here: https://taleofpainters.com/2022/05/scale-comparison-mkvi-horus-heresy-space-marine-legionaries/?force_isolation=true

The Mk3 marine looks like it stands up well to the Mk6 marine, drawing reference lines across these guys in photoshop, the mk3 marine looks to be only about 1mm shorter than the Mk6 - the backpacks are at the same hieght, the top of the heads are very close, the top of the mk3s eyes are at the same height as the bottom of the mk6 marines eyes, the neckline is about 1-1.5mm lower. Crotch height on the mk3 is about a mm below crotch height on the mk6, but that might be overstated by the fact that there is a plate in the way on the mk3 which is making the crotch look lower, its entirely possible crotch height is almost identical in reality. All in all, these both look like marines that can coexist side by side given natural height variation (it only gets a bit weird when you realize that all the dudes in the one armor type are taller than all the dudes in the other armor type - but maybe its the difference between terran born and homeworld marines). The only major difference in height is from the shoulder pads, which are off about 2-3mm between them, but thats explainable by differences in armor construction and plate thickness, etc.

The Mk4 marine on the other hand... the top of the mk4s eye is about 1-2mm lower than the bottom of the mk3s eyes, putting it about 3mm shorter than the mk6. The backpack is about 5mm shorter than the m3/6, and the neckline is similarly situated between 3-5mm lower (hard to tell from photo because its blocked by the bolter). I think the difference between the 4 and 6 might be too much to look the other way on without some clever modeling to make them seem a bit taller (put them on a thicker/more dramatic base, etc.).

You said everything I was going to and substantially more comprehensively about the history of the firstborn rescale so

I've been rescaling mark iii and iv models this last couple of weeks against the 2019 chaos marine size, using the collar height to benchmark on the basis that the mark vi look to be very close to that. The bulk of the difference is in the legs, the torso length is similar enough. As you say crotch height on the mark 3 is hidden by the torso plate but it's definitely lower. I think the mark iii feels more like 2mm shorter overall (depending upon pose) - the mark iii pack and helmet are quite chunky, which makes them look taller than they are at the neck, which matters when you use smaller forgeworld helmets - but it's fixable with some green stuff at the waist and neck, and optionally some under the feet (or creative basing) to get to equivalent height. Mark IV are basically old-scale marines, plus the squat, so are visibly shorter even than mark iii, so will need chonky bases indeed to compensate. 3d printed replacement legs also works...

Do we know whether the new contemptor is compatible with the fw arms control or if the new arms fit the FW contemptor?

zanzibarthefirst wrote:
Do we know whether the new contemptor is compatible with the fw arms control or if the new arms fit the FW contemptor?

Something's gotta to be compatible with something because right now FW will sell you fancy Contemtpors but don't sell arms for them.

 Prometheum5 wrote:

zanzibarthefirst wrote:
Do we know whether the new contemptor is compatible with the fw arms control or if the new arms fit the FW contemptor?

Something's gotta to be compatible with something because right now FW will sell you fancy Contemtpors but don't sell arms for them.

Pretty much the same joins.

 arkhanist wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Re: Scale Comparisons to Mk3 and 4, I've been working from the comparison photos here: https://taleofpainters.com/2022/05/scale-comparison-mkvi-horus-heresy-space-marine-legionaries/?force_isolation=true

The Mk3 marine looks like it stands up well to the Mk6 marine, drawing reference lines across these guys in photoshop, the mk3 marine looks to be only about 1mm shorter than the Mk6 - the backpacks are at the same hieght, the top of the heads are very close, the top of the mk3s eyes are at the same height as the bottom of the mk6 marines eyes, the neckline is about 1-1.5mm lower. Crotch height on the mk3 is about a mm below crotch height on the mk6, but that might be overstated by the fact that there is a plate in the way on the mk3 which is making the crotch look lower, its entirely possible crotch height is almost identical in reality. All in all, these both look like marines that can coexist side by side given natural height variation (it only gets a bit weird when you realize that all the dudes in the one armor type are taller than all the dudes in the other armor type - but maybe its the difference between terran born and homeworld marines). The only major difference in height is from the shoulder pads, which are off about 2-3mm between them, but thats explainable by differences in armor construction and plate thickness, etc.

The Mk4 marine on the other hand... the top of the mk4s eye is about 1-2mm lower than the bottom of the mk3s eyes, putting it about 3mm shorter than the mk6. The backpack is about 5mm shorter than the m3/6, and the neckline is similarly situated between 3-5mm lower (hard to tell from photo because its blocked by the bolter). I think the difference between the 4 and 6 might be too much to look the other way on without some clever modeling to make them seem a bit taller (put them on a thicker/more dramatic base, etc.).

You said everything I was going to and substantially more comprehensively about the history of the firstborn rescale so

I've been rescaling mark iii and iv models this last couple of weeks against the 2019 chaos marine size, using the collar height to benchmark on the basis that the mark vi look to be very close to that. The bulk of the difference is in the legs, the torso length is similar enough. As you say crotch height on the mark 3 is hidden by the torso plate but it's definitely lower. I think the mark iii feels more like 2mm shorter overall (depending upon pose) - the mark iii pack and helmet are quite chunky, which makes them look taller than they are at the neck, which matters when you use smaller forgeworld helmets - but it's fixable with some green stuff at the waist and neck, and optionally some under the feet (or creative basing) to get to equivalent height. Mark IV are basically old-scale marines, plus the squat, so are visibly shorter even than mark iii, so will need chonky bases indeed to compensate. 3d printed replacement legs also works...

Yeah, for Mk3 I was thinking of elongating them at the torso, just insert a 1-2 mm spacer at the joint between their chest/upper torso and their waist/lower torso. It'll give them the height necessary to blend in and make them appear a bit less chunky/a bit leaner next to the mk6. Having done the same with other marine sculpts in the past I don't think it should present much of an issue aesthetically speaking and doesn't require cutting/resculpting. Whatever height I can't get from the spacer at the torso I can get from putting a spacer under their feet so they sit a bit higher on the base. Can also try a spacer at the neck instead so that the pack doesn't sit too high up etc. I think they'll blend in just fine with the spacers.

Mk4 will be more challenging and I'm not sure I can get there without cutting and resculpting. Spacers at the foot, torso, and neck are going to be mandatory, but even that is probably going to still come up short height wise. If it does, I'm going to need to to do what you suggested and look into 3d printed replacement legs that correct the height issue a bit... let me know if you got any leads on some good stls for it

Actually for me I usually just add a dab of green stuff between the torso section and lower half. That adjusts there height pretty well.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And what about everybody's custom chapters and paintjobs? You know, the things they've spent tens or hundreds of hours painstakingly realizing? Are they all just Imperial Fists in really cunning camouflage now?

Why not? I'm all for people running their Marine armies as whatever rules fit what they wanted to build. No reason to punish someone for having picked the wrong color scheme.

Not when (in the hypothetical scenario I outlined above) you're already punishing them by forcibly turning their army into a 30k force whether they wanted to or not, meaning they'll be stuck fighting against other Marines 90% of the time

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm not crazy, am I? The Macrocarid Explorator isn't there, right?

Legacy unit PDF probably. No mini no rules again.

I’m with HBMC, I have a Macrocarid and very lovely it is too. Possible omission of that, Ordinatus Saggitar, Peltasts and Hoplites is odd, albeit some cannot physically be purchased at present. If they’re in the pdf I guess it’s ok…but why is there an Arlatax entry when I don’t think that ever had a sculpt released?

Yes, people used to proxy Domitars as they look ace

With the new edition dropping in a week would that be a good time for starting a new thread?

New threads don't seem to be affected by the blank page bug, which is getting a little annoying now.

 xttz wrote:
With the new edition dropping in a week would that be a good time for starting a new thread?

New threads don't seem to be affected by the blank page bug, which is getting a little annoying now.

Probably a good idea - I'll PM a mod

feugan wrote:
I’m with HBMC, I have a Macrocarid and very lovely it is too. Possible omission of that, Ordinatus Saggitar, Peltasts and Hoplites is odd, albeit some cannot physically be purchased at present. If they’re in the pdf I guess it’s ok…but why is there an Arlatax entry when I don’t think that ever had a sculpt released?

Yes, people used to proxy Domitars as they look ace

Skitarii aren't actually in the Mechanicum list, rather Secutarii Titan Guard are instead. Peltasts and Hoplites will be in the Titanicus section of the rules.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The idea that BaC and BoP were attempts at breaking into the board game market was a bad take, those were not "board gamers board games" and everything about them from the contents and the minis, to the not particularly great rules, to the marketing around it was built around the idea of pushing plastic to miniatures gamers with an eye towards lowering barriers to entry into 30k.

To be fair that confusion came about because Calth did have great rules.

deano2099 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

The idea that BaC and BoP were attempts at breaking into the board game market was a bad take, those were not "board gamers board games" and everything about them from the contents and the minis, to the not particularly great rules, to the marketing around it was built around the idea of pushing plastic to miniatures gamers with an eye towards lowering barriers to entry into 30k.

To be fair that confusion came about because Calth did have great rules.

Ahhh good times when they still had that last one game dev who had some professional pride (and worked off the clock if he had to so GW wouldn't publish a turd with his name on it)

 lord_blackfang wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

The idea that BaC and BoP were attempts at breaking into the board game market was a bad take, those were not "board gamers board games" and everything about them from the contents and the minis, to the not particularly great rules, to the marketing around it was built around the idea of pushing plastic to miniatures gamers with an eye towards lowering barriers to entry into 30k.

To be fair that confusion came about because Calth did have great rules.

Ahhh good times when they still had that last one game dev who had some professional pride (and worked off the clock if he had to so GW wouldn't publish a turd with his name on it)

You cand to that only for so long until any drive you had has been grinded to dust, though.