Actually... do they?
So many huge or one-off projects that used to be part of FW's domain are just being done by the main studio now. Think of the bigger-scale giants and greater daemons that used to be done by FW that are now just 'normal' models. As well as rare and esoteric tanks and LoW that are just everyday plastic kits.
Really, the most justifiable role for FW now is small resin bits like shoulder pads and hats that would be split between 1/18th of the player base, and there just likely isn't demand for a large 'print run.'
---
Very cool model, though.
Its getting to the point that they don't need to make the 'also for 40k' disclaimer anymore. All the vehicles are. Makes me think a sea-change is coming for 40k (and it isn't squatting old marines).
Actually... do they?
So many huge or one-off projects that used to be part of FW's domain are just being done by the main studio now. Think of the bigger-scale giants and greater daemons that used to be done by FW that are now just 'normal' models. As well as rare and esoteric tanks and LoW that are just everyday plastic kits.
Really, the most justifiable role for FW now is small resin bits like shoulder pads and hats that would be split between 1/18th of the player base, and there just likely isn't demand for a large 'print run.'
could be why the kit was done the way it was, maybe sales info suggested melee options for Levi's were the least popular choice to order?
Actually... do they?
So many huge or one-off projects that used to be part of FW's domain are just being done by the main studio now. Think of the bigger-scale giants and greater daemons that used to be done by FW that are now just 'normal' models. As well as rare and esoteric tanks and LoW that are just everyday plastic kits.
Really, the most justifiable role for FW now is small resin bits like shoulder pads and hats that would be split between 1/18th of the player base, and there just likely isn't demand for a large 'print run.'
could be why the kit was done the way it was, maybe sales info suggested melee options for Levi's were the least popular choice to order?
Yeah but that's because min-maxers favour ranged options, it's got nothing to do with the unit's lore.
Usable in 40k, plastic kit. Hoping they throw them into the rumored 9.5 SM book, and save space by merging a lot of spare datasheets like Gravis captains and assault and normal intercessors.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Usable in 40k, plastic kit. Hoping they throw them into the rumored 9.5 SM book, and save space by merging a lot of spare datasheets like Gravis captains and assault and normal intercessors.
It's going to be weird when the Firstborn eventually get the axe, since by that time Marine armies will consist of honored 30k relics, the brand new hotness from Belisarius CawlMart and nothing in between. :-P
MajorWesJanson wrote: Usable in 40k, plastic kit. Hoping they throw them into the rumored 9.5 SM book, and save space by merging a lot of spare datasheets like Gravis captains and assault and normal intercessors.
It's going to be weird when the Firstborn eventually get the axe, since by that time Marine armies will consist of honored 30k relics, the brand new hotness from Belisarius CawlMart and nothing in between. :-P
I don't think you need to spend much energy worrying about something that *might* happen in 2040 right now.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Usable in 40k, plastic kit. Hoping they throw them into the rumored 9.5 SM book, and save space by merging a lot of spare datasheets like Gravis captains and assault and normal intercessors.
It's going to be weird when the Firstborn eventually get the axe, since by that time Marine armies will consist of honored 30k relics, the brand new hotness from Belisarius CawlMart and nothing in between. :-P
I don't think you need to spend much energy worrying about something that *might* happen in 2040 right now.
...Wow, I'd actually forgotten the conspiracy theory about Space Marines being squatted out of 40k. It's so dead and buried to me that when I read that post I assumed the axe he was talking about must be a physical axe some unit or other has but doesn't have rules for or something like that.
Albertorius wrote: Eh, by now I see more feasible that they simply merge the units back and there's no more "primaris" or "regular marine" and just marines once again.
God knows they need a unit prune.
Easiest way to do that is roll Tactical Marine options into the Intercessor profile. Bam, best of both worlds.
It's going to be weird when the Firstborn eventually get the axe, since by that time Marine armies will consist of honored 30k relics, the brand new hotness from Belisarius CawlMart and nothing in between. :-P
I don't think you need to spend much energy worrying about something that *might* happen in 2040 right now.
I was being facetious, but I see I should have festooned by post with additional emoticons to make the sentiment crystal clear.
It's going to be weird when the Firstborn eventually get the axe, since by that time Marine armies will consist of honored 30k relics, the brand new hotness from Belisarius CawlMart and nothing in between. :-P
I don't think you need to spend much energy worrying about something that *might* happen in 2040 right now.
I was being facetious, but I see I should have festooned by post with additional emoticons to make the sentiment crystal clear.
I'm only mildly poking at you about it. Who knows what they'll do. I know a guy who is convinced that they're going to make a 40K classic edition ruleset with no primaris allowed.
It's going to be weird when the Firstborn eventually get the axe, since by that time Marine armies will consist of honored 30k relics, the brand new hotness from Belisarius CawlMart and nothing in between. :-P
I don't think you need to spend much energy worrying about something that *might* happen in 2040 right now.
I was being facetious, but I see I should have festooned by post with additional emoticons to make the sentiment crystal clear.
I'm only mildly poking at you about it. Who knows what they'll do. I know a guy who is convinced that they're going to make a 40K classic edition ruleset with no primaris allowed.
You should tell him about this Horus Heresy thing I keep hearing about.
Hmm putting the plastic HH kits revealed/leaked so far into the SM dex would add four new data slates(Spartan, Kratos, Sicaran, Leviathan) and potentially expand several others(Contemptor, Predator, Rhino and possibly adding new heavy and special weapons to firstborn squads). So not a huge increase given the books already sizeable page count. But I'd be very surprised if there wasn't more in the pipeline.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Hmm putting the plastic HH kits revealed/leaked so far into the SM dex would add four new data slates(Spartan, Kratos, Sicaran, Leviathan) and potentially expand several others(Contemptor, Predator, Rhino and possibly adding new heavy and special weapons to firstborn squads). So not a huge increase given the books already sizeable page count. But I'd be very surprised if there wasn't more in the pipeline.
They could easily free up some space by merging unit entries and loosening a few options. Predators, Gladiators, and Storm Speeders could easily be reduced from 8 datasheets to 3. Making Venerable an upgrade rather than a specific unit entry would make a lot of sense with adding 2 new dreadnought kits. Terminators, assault terminators, and relic terminators could be merged into one entry with a bit of work to have a choice on indomitus, cataphractii, or tartarus which adjust stats and lock or unlock weapon options.
A lot of HQs could be merged entries, and would benefit from less rigid wargear sets. How much easier would the primaris captain entry be if it was just a base heavy bolt pistol, mc sword and mc bolt rifle, then can swap the sword for chainsword or fist, and the bolt rifle for a variant, a carbine, a variety of special pistols, or a relic shield. Done.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Hmm putting the plastic HH kits revealed/leaked so far into the SM dex would add four new data slates(Spartan, Kratos, Sicaran, Leviathan) and potentially expand several others(Contemptor, Predator, Rhino and possibly adding new heavy and special weapons to firstborn squads). So not a huge increase given the books already sizeable page count. But I'd be very surprised if there wasn't more in the pipeline.
I don't think they will add rotor cannons and volkite to Firstborn Tacticals or whatever. Those units already have a very well saturated list of weapon options, after all, with options not available to their 30k equivalents (multi-melta, grav-cannon and grav-gun). Likewise, options like pintle-mounted heavy weapons on the Deimos Rhino, and the various arm and turret weapons exclusive to 30k for Contemptors and Predators should stay that way.
We got to draw the line somewhere, as much as I'd love for an excuse to buy an allied Thallax cohort for my Firstborn
GoatboyBeta wrote: Hmm putting the plastic HH kits revealed/leaked so far into the SM dex would add four new data slates(Spartan, Kratos, Sicaran, Leviathan) and potentially expand several others(Contemptor, Predator, Rhino and possibly adding new heavy and special weapons to firstborn squads). So not a huge increase given the books already sizeable page count. But I'd be very surprised if there wasn't more in the pipeline.
They could easily free up some space by merging unit entries and loosening a few options. Predators, Gladiators, and Storm Speeders could easily be reduced from 8 datasheets to 3. Making Venerable an upgrade rather than a specific unit entry would make a lot of sense with adding 2 new dreadnought kits. Terminators, assault terminators, and relic terminators could be merged into one entry with a bit of work to have a choice on indomitus, cataphractii, or tartarus which adjust stats and lock or unlock weapon options.
A lot of HQs could be merged entries, and would benefit from less rigid wargear sets. How much easier would the primaris captain entry be if it was just a base heavy bolt pistol, mc sword and mc bolt rifle, then can swap the sword for chainsword or fist, and the bolt rifle for a variant, a carbine, a variety of special pistols, or a relic shield. Done.
Rule of 3 is the main reason why they have so many of those datasheets split up.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Hmm putting the plastic HH kits revealed/leaked so far into the SM dex would add four new data slates(Spartan, Kratos, Sicaran, Leviathan) and potentially expand several others(Contemptor, Predator, Rhino and possibly adding new heavy and special weapons to firstborn squads). So not a huge increase given the books already sizeable page count. But I'd be very surprised if there wasn't more in the pipeline.
They could easily free up some space by merging unit entries and loosening a few options. Predators, Gladiators, and Storm Speeders could easily be reduced from 8 datasheets to 3. Making Venerable an upgrade rather than a specific unit entry would make a lot of sense with adding 2 new dreadnought kits. Terminators, assault terminators, and relic terminators could be merged into one entry with a bit of work to have a choice on indomitus, cataphractii, or tartarus which adjust stats and lock or unlock weapon options.
A lot of HQs could be merged entries, and would benefit from less rigid wargear sets. How much easier would the primaris captain entry be if it was just a base heavy bolt pistol, mc sword and mc bolt rifle, then can swap the sword for chainsword or fist, and the bolt rifle for a variant, a carbine, a variety of special pistols, or a relic shield. Done.
Unfortunately 9th edition datasheets aren't reasonable like that. Can't have rules that allow a combination of weapons that's not actually sold and would need to cut a hand off a holy citadel plastic model.
Destrado wrote: Didn't GE say that this box wasn't limited? My flgs told me that they tried to get one today and the reply was that it's sold out.
I held for a bit because I had just ordered KT morochi, thinking that the HH box would be available for some time...
It will be available for some time. That doesn't mean they haven't hit the limits of the initial production run. (Having excess orders that they can't fulfill in a timely fashion isn't good).
Destrado wrote: Didn't GE say that this box wasn't limited? My flgs told me that they tried to get one today and the reply was that it's sold out.
I held for a bit because I had just ordered KT morochi, thinking that the HH box would be available for some time...
It will be available for some time. That doesn't mean they haven't hit the limits of the initial production run. (Having excess orders that they can't fulfill in a timely fashion isn't good).
Sure hope so, fingers crossed it's not another cursed city.
They have called launch box which so far has been limited. So i won't consider possibility of cheaper(but less value) starter sets like 40k/aos later being zero.
Destrado wrote: Didn't GE say that this box wasn't limited? My flgs told me that they tried to get one today and the reply was that it's sold out.
I held for a bit because I had just ordered KT morochi, thinking that the HH box would be available for some time...
Any stores taking orders *before* the window starts are gambling on their stock allocation and setting people up for disappointment. It's not "sold out" anywhere because it isn't on sale. My guess is your local store have taken a bunch of peoples' money and are now worrying about fulfilling. I'd shop somewhere else tbh
Destrado wrote: Didn't GE say that this box wasn't limited? My flgs told me that they tried to get one today and the reply was that it's sold out.
I held for a bit because I had just ordered KT morochi, thinking that the HH box would be available for some time...
Any stores taking orders *before* the window starts are gambling on their stock allocation and setting people up for disappointment. It's not "sold out" anywhere because it isn't on sale. My guess is your local store have taken a bunch of peoples' money and are now worrying about fulfilling. I'd shop somewhere else tbh
At least in America, most store need to tell their sales person their stock requests before the "window" opens. Our local stores had to inform their rep of how many they need by this past Tuesday or not have any/enough. They haven't taken money, but they HAVE taken orders so they know how many boxes they need to order.
Destrado wrote: Didn't GE say that this box wasn't limited? My flgs told me that they tried to get one today and the reply was that it's sold out.
I held for a bit because I had just ordered KT morochi, thinking that the HH box would be available for some time...
Any stores taking orders *before* the window starts are gambling on their stock allocation and setting people up for disappointment. It's not "sold out" anywhere because it isn't on sale. My guess is your local store have taken a bunch of peoples' money and are now worrying about fulfilling. I'd shop somewhere else tbh
At least in America, most store need to tell their sales person their stock requests before the "window" opens. Our local stores had to inform their rep of how many they need by this past Tuesday or not have any/enough. They haven't taken money, but they HAVE taken orders so they know how many boxes they need to order.
Same for ours, FLGS had to have their numbers in to the rep by 3PM Wednesday.
Destrado wrote: Didn't GE say that this box wasn't limited? My flgs told me that they tried to get one today and the reply was that it's sold out.
I held for a bit because I had just ordered KT morochi, thinking that the HH box would be available for some time...
Any stores taking orders *before* the window starts are gambling on their stock allocation and setting people up for disappointment. It's not "sold out" anywhere because it isn't on sale. My guess is your local store have taken a bunch of peoples' money and are now worrying about fulfilling. I'd shop somewhere else tbh
Maybe not. When my local store tried to get theirs, they were only allotted 4 copies and were told by their rep that the box set was nearly sold out entirely for store allocations. Tomorrow is going to be interesting because I suspect this box set is going to sell WAY above expectations and there will be a lot of unhappy people who weren't able to snag one.
Destrado wrote: Didn't GE say that this box wasn't limited? My flgs told me that they tried to get one today and the reply was that it's sold out.
I held for a bit because I had just ordered KT morochi, thinking that the HH box would be available for some time...
Any stores taking orders *before* the window starts are gambling on their stock allocation and setting people up for disappointment. It's not "sold out" anywhere because it isn't on sale. My guess is your local store have taken a bunch of peoples' money and are now worrying about fulfilling. I'd shop somewhere else tbh
At least in America, most store need to tell their sales person their stock requests before the "window" opens. Our local stores had to inform their rep of how many they need by this past Tuesday or not have any/enough. They haven't taken money, but they HAVE taken orders so they know how many boxes they need to order.
Talked to my local store (and "ordered" my box) here in Sweden yesterday. Same issue there, they needed to get their orders in a week before GW's pre-order window starts, so I'm lucky they had ordered enough.
Got my orders in, 1 copy of the box from one store, 2 copies of the box from another plus 2 kratos, 1 deimos, 1 liber hereticus, 1 liber astartes, 1 special weapon upgrade, 1 heavy weapon upgrade. Best part is the kratos and deimos are free and the rest is at a 25%+ discount
privateer4hire wrote: So the theory that ebay will be awash in cheap basic squads is…
..still sound. I bet a big chunk of the initial preorders are being made by all manner of resellers.
Personally, I hope GW has made enough of the "limited" items coming with the direct orders so as to not sell out within the first 30 minutes. I'm also wondering whether my personal QueIt wait will be below the time in which these limited items sell out or not
This is fun! It's been a good while since I've even seen a preorder go live and have a QueIt trigger on me.. many of the past releases have been quite boring in that regard..
Destrado wrote: Didn't GE say that this box wasn't limited? My flgs told me that they tried to get one today and the reply was that it's sold out.
I held for a bit because I had just ordered KT morochi, thinking that the HH box would be available for some time...
Any stores taking orders *before* the window starts are gambling on their stock allocation and setting people up for disappointment. It's not "sold out" anywhere because it isn't on sale. My guess is your local store have taken a bunch of peoples' money and are now worrying about fulfilling. I'd shop somewhere else tbh
I tried to put my order in today, I ordered KT:M with them, like a lot of other stuff before, it's pay on arrival. They are a small store, so likely they don't order expensive boxes without the client asking for it.
I should have ordered sooner but since the box was only coming out on Saturday I didn't think they wouldn't have any left to sell! Might try my luck with GW, though it's hard missing on those 20% discount, besides of course supporting a small store.
privateer4hire wrote: So the theory that ebay will be awash in cheap basic squads is…
..still sound. I bet a big chunk of the initial preorders are being made by all manner of resellers.
Personally, I hope GW has made enough of the "limited" items coming with the direct orders so as to not sell out within the first 30 minutes. I'm also wondering whether my personal QueIt wait will be below the time in which these limited items sell out or not
This is fun! It's been a good while since I've even seen a preorder go live and have a QueIt trigger on me.. many of the past releases have been quite boring in that regard..
yep, watched a person ask my local LGS manager if he could buy 50 boxes, pretty obvious what he plans to do with those, the same manager also speculated places like Wayland are likely getting 1500 boxes.
privateer4hire wrote: So the theory that ebay will be awash in cheap basic squads is…
So-so. I think there'll be a lot of people who genuinely want the lot to start 30k and a good amount who don't/can't buy a £180 box but still want Beakies, but probably enough resellers that picking them up for below estimated RRP won't be too hard.
Cataptachtii I could see going for relatively cheap, since most existing 30k players will already have more than enough and they're not new models.
Spartan and the Contemptor will be the hot commodities.
I could see the axe Praetor going for a decent, but not crazy price. The sword Praetor will probably be the one people are desperate to get rid of for pennies.
Odds are you'll be able to grab a rulebook for pretty cheap after a few days if previous boxes have been any indication. Even Indomitus you could get for about £15-20 not long after.
This is just super weak.
At this point in gaming, and the price point they are charging, all options and spots to insert magnets for this type of model should be included. It would certainly save time having to drill holes in multiple parts as I do magnetise models like this.
I would still be buying multiples to run specific army builds.
This is just super weak.
At this point in gaming, and the price point they are charging, all options and spots to insert magnets for this type of model should be included. It would certainly save time having to drill holes in multiple parts as I do magnetise models like this.
I would still be buying multiples to run specific army builds.
The Levi's melee options are still up for sale on the FW store. My guess is that they'll be kept as resin upgrades.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Just in time for Heresy? Rogue Trader and both Realms of Chaos books are coming back to WHW and the US Citadels,
Realms of Chaos are absolute must haves if you ask me.
Agreed on the Rogue Trader book. I haven't had the Realms of Chaos books so can't say for certain about them but I'm hoping to get both Realms of Chaos books at the Los Angeles Cafe next week. I saw Slaves to Darkness on the Cafe's facebook but not Lost & The Damned.
Well, not long to go. I'm starting to get excited.1x big box, 1x loyalists book, 1x kratos, 1x heavy weapons for me. I hope there's no supply issue because next week will be another big box plus traitor book, rhinos, and special weapons. I'm starting to wonder now though. Maybe try to spend a bit more tomorrow idk.
With the surprise announcement of the Levi yesterday, what are the chances we get to see another new kit next HH Thursday next week?
The original rumors stated plastic demios Vindicators, Predators and Landraiders were all supposedly coming.
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JWBS wrote: Well, not long to go. I'm starting to get excited.1x big box, 1x loyalists book, 1x kratos, 1x heavy weapons for me. I hope there's no supply issue because next week will be another big box plus traitor book, rhinos, and special weapons. I'm starting to wonder now though. Maybe try to spend a bit more tomorrow idk.
For me I'm just starting with one of the big boxes. I want to see all the rules so I can decide what to pick up next check. Defiantly going to grab a Kratos, that thing is the MBT I've been drooling for.
chaos0xomega wrote: Got my orders in, 1 copy of the box from one store, 2 copies of the box from another plus 2 kratos, 1 deimos, 1 liber hereticus, 1 liber astartes, 1 special weapon upgrade, 1 heavy weapon upgrade. Best part is the kratos and deimos are free and the rest is at a 25%+ discount
How the hell are you getting 25%? That must be a wicked generous FLGS.
I know people are (justifiably) concerned about the shoulder pad being in two pieces, but it looks to me like the exhaust stacks from the Kratos and Rhino also have a seam running right down the middle that will be really really challenging to smooth over.
Looking at the Phase 3 leaks and comparing it to the sponson sprue more things make sense. The Javelin got a Volkite Culverin option because they’re just tossing in the sponson sprue. Same with the Predator, Arquitor, Sicaran, Cerberus, and Typhon. Hmm… plastic superheavies? Yes, please!
Had a laugh at Aus procing, but even more at the rebranded Legion Scouts set - the current Space Marine Scouts without a heresy rebox.
Makes you wonder if the logical development path for this post Terra is scouring with all the current first born Marine content utilised for that phase.
privateer4hire wrote: So the theory that ebay will be awash in cheap basic squads is…
..still sound. I bet a big chunk of the initial preorders are being made by all manner of resellers.
Personally, I hope GW has made enough of the "limited" items coming with the direct orders so as to not sell out within the first 30 minutes. I'm also wondering whether my personal QueIt wait will be below the time in which these limited items sell out or not
This is fun! It's been a good while since I've even seen a preorder go live and have a QueIt trigger on me.. many of the past releases have been quite boring in that regard..
yep, watched a person ask my local LGS manager if he could buy 50 boxes, pretty obvious what he plans to do with those, the same manager also speculated places like Wayland are likely getting 1500 boxes.
The universal Rhino hull is clever. Good to see that that's being expanded upon. The Kratos sprues are also interesting, given that there's one whole sprue for each side. I guess it is a big tank. Plus that sweet ram-bar it has is part of those sprues - you get half on each one!
Looking at the release box again once I got over the original sticker shock - and converting each unit notional $$ price to my preferred early 2000's price bands (cos, you know time doesnt move for some of us), the box set is actually well priced and comes under what I would pay in my head if I was paying old price bands.
What I find most jarring though, is the next comparison I make which is to Indomitus. That was $290 direct in Australia for more individual miniatures, but probably equivalent plastic given how much plastic is in that Spartan. Both have a weighty tome so box weight is equivalent. So aside from GW inflation tax - what drives up pricing on a launch box by $185 in the course of 2 years. I accept worldwide shipping costs are higher than 2 years ago, but that kind of jump ruins the 'value' proposition, notwithstanding my earlier 2000 price band comparison.
A local FLGS is offering it at $380, but even to get to that level of spending comfort in my mind is taking some time. Ultimately, I think this price point, and the price point for individual items sitting alongside the big box release, and I imagine any future releases for Heresy or 40k more generally, has finally hit that point of pricing me out of this hobby. My discretionary spend each month is not large enough to stomach this kind of pricing strategy anymore.
To those of you getting in on this - I look forward to seeing what you and the rest of the community can do with the contents and will be happily lurking in the painting/build logs to see what people come up with.
Keel wrote: The amount of wasted space on the Heavy/Special Weapons sprue is almost funny. Couldn't add in some random bitz, GW? Melta bombs, perhaps?
I am one to usually call out GW for lack of options, but in this very rare case, it kind of makes sense. Heavy support squads in HH have their main gun, possibly frag grenades (can't remember if they do)... And that is about it.
Only the Sargent can take some extra wargear, but seeing as he is also armed with a heavy weapon, it makes little sense giving him certain things. Also, I do believe FW still make the Mk2/3 and the Mk4/6 close combat/equipment upgrade packs, so they might still be trying to flog those (unless they pull a switcheroo and do plastic like the support/heavy weapons.)
I noticed that Australian independent retailers are offering the Kratos and Deimos at 20% discount... this would imply those items are NOT direct only as direct only items usually have much lesser discounts.
Does that mean the price list we saw earlier was wrong about those items being direct only? Perhaps they'll be direct only after the initial launch? Or maybe GW have changed their pricing strategy for direct only models?
They certainly lack the "Direct Only" symbol on the GW site for us, but they're also listed as being "temporarily out of stock online" since pre-orders opened so who knows at this point
Dr. Mills wrote: I'm hoping to pick up a good deal on the main rulebook and Liber Astartes books once it drops - hopefully the Bay of E will be awash with them...
Rulebooks will be cheap, I suspect, but the Liber books are only sold separately, so not sure you'll get such a good deal there...
Well, the queue was actually fine for me, got in at 09.55am and managed to order the boxed set, 2 x liber books and the bookmark. Hopefully others don't have any issues.
Yeah, weirdly I got redirected from the queue back into the main site at like 09:55 - I wasn't planning on ordering from GW just wanted to see. Now I've refreshed and been put back in the queue...
NAVARRO wrote: So now its pretty standard that most box sets are above the psychological barrier of the £100 as such GW is going for the £200 goal.
£180 yeah right.
Not much of a barrier when you figure out the box with a 2000 pts army and a 300 page book is cheaper than just 4 tactical squads and a 22 year old Land Raider sculpt.
NAVARRO wrote: So now its pretty standard that most box sets are above the psychological barrier of the £100 as such GW is going for the £200 goal.
£180 yeah right.
Not much of a barrier when you figure out the box with a 2000 pts army and a 300 page book is cheaper than just 4 tactical squads and a 22 year old Land Raider sculpt.
Individual box sets are ridiculous overpriced so this artificially looks a good deal.
Like ash wastes. £180 box set and individual terrain goes for a fortune.
Yeah considering the superheavy vehicle that'd go for over 80 bucks on it's own, it's a surprisingly cheap set, I was expecting more like £300.
Still not really interested in going for it though, I mostly just want the contemptor. Will prolly pick up a handful of the marines for my deathwatch conversion box eventually, when they're individually sold.
I ordered my stuff for Wayland. I wanted to use Alchemist but their site is unusable right now. In my efforts though I noticed the Astartes book dropped from 50+ in stock to just 13, and they're down to 87 AoD boxes (didn't notice the initial number). Not a great sign tbh, people are going to miss this initial wave and even just a month of delay will be very disappointing for many.
Dark. imperium was a good deal and varied content at good price... Indomitus was ok but £25 too much and varied.... This is limited sprue spam, for £80 too much.
Sure its a good deal in a reality of silly priced individual kits that most of the times are way above the £30 mark these days. Heck even just weapons sprues are at £26.... great.
The similar priced sets we have to Dark imperium are things like Eldritch Omens which only shows what you get.
Hater? No, just sensible about value and price. So I vote with wallet and dont buy.
Childish remark kiddo but your a Lover and you know what they say - Love is blind.
After time in the queue, I still can't find the HH rulebook.
The two tomes seem to be codex type books and state "In order to use the contents of this book, you will require a copy of the Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Age of Darkness Rulebook."
Is the rulebook not available except in the pricey box set?
NAVARRO wrote: Dark. imperium was a good deal and varied content at good price... Indomitus was ok but £25 too much and varied.... This is limited sprue spam, for £80 too much.
Sure its a good deal in a reality of silly priced individual kits that most of the times are way above the £30 mark these days. Heck even just weapons sprues are at £26.... great.
The similar priced sets we have to Dark imperium are things like Eldritch Omens which only shows what you get.
Hater? No, just sensible about value and price. So I vote with wallet and dont buy.
Childish remark kiddo but your a Lover and you know what they say - Love is blind.
If you think that GW should sell what is effectively a small army of new products plus a rulebook for £100 then your opinion is simply not based on reality.
If that makes me a "lover", than come here, big boy! XXX
Gimgamgoo wrote: After time in the queue, I still can't find the HH rulebook.
The two tomes seem to be codex type books and state "In order to use the contents of this book, you will require a copy of the Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Age of Darkness Rulebook."
Is the rulebook not available except in the pricey box set?
Not yet, no.
You should be able to find them on Ebay cheap pretty soon if Indomitus/Dominion were any indication.
Dr. Mills wrote: I'm hoping to pick up a good deal on the main rulebook and Liber Astartes books once it drops - hopefully the Bay of E will be awash with them...
Rulebooks will be cheap, I suspect, but the Liber books are only sold separately, so not sure you'll get such a good deal there...
Ah, I stupidly forgot to put in the Liber Astartes will be from my usual discounter, the main rule book ebay.
Anyone got any feeling on what will the most picked up of the included models once the boxed set is split on the 'bay?
NAVARRO wrote: Dark. imperium was a good deal and varied content at good price... Indomitus was ok but £25 too much and varied.... This is limited sprue spam, for £80 too much.
Sure its a good deal in a reality of silly priced individual kits that most of the times are way above the £30 mark these days. Heck even just weapons sprues are at £26.... great.
The similar priced sets we have to Dark imperium are things like Eldritch Omens which only shows what you get.
Hater? No, just sensible about value and price. So I vote with wallet and dont buy.
Childish remark kiddo but your a Lover and you know what they say - Love is blind.
If you think that GW should sell what is effectively a small army of new products plus a rulebook for £100 then your opinion is simply not based on reality.
If that makes me a "lover", than come here, big boy! XXX
Gw artificially generated reality, sure. Not my reality.
Thanks but Its not you, its me so I will pass XXX
I give it a couple years or less before we get to the £200 mark. In the meanwhile enjoy it if you can I guess.
Dr. Mills wrote: Anyone got any feeling on what will the most picked up of the included models once the boxed set is split on the 'bay?
Spartan feels like it'll be the most popular, since it's the centrepiece and hasn't been in plastic before, as well as having rules for 40k.
Contemptor in second, because it's a strong 40k model and it's much, much improved on the existing plastic kit. Probably knocked down a few points from the Spartan because the Legion-specific ones are generally really good.
Axe Praetor I could see being popular for conversions, but not so much the Sword one.
Beakies could go either way. 40 is A LOT, even though you can easily use that many in a 3k game I think a lot of people will assume otherwise, or those who want to prioritise a different armour mark.
Dr. Mills wrote: I'm hoping to pick up a good deal on the main rulebook and Liber Astartes books once it drops - hopefully the Bay of E will be awash with them...
Rulebooks will be cheap, I suspect, but the Liber books are only sold separately, so not sure you'll get such a good deal there...
Ah, I stupidly forgot to put in the Liber Astartes will be from my usual discounter, the main rule book ebay.
Anyone got any feeling on what will the most picked up of the included models once the boxed set is split on the 'bay?
I'd guess that marines will be fairly cheap and the rulebook will be very cheap, everything else will cost more than what you pay by geting the AoD box (including the characters).
Gimgamgoo wrote: After time in the queue, I still can't find the HH rulebook.
The two tomes seem to be codex type books and state "In order to use the contents of this book, you will require a copy of the Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Age of Darkness Rulebook."
Is the rulebook not available except in the pricey box set?
I'm sure they'll be readily available once people that buy multiples (or to split) start getting rid of theirs.
Dr. Mills wrote: I'm hoping to pick up a good deal on the main rulebook and Liber Astartes books once it drops - hopefully the Bay of E will be awash with them...
Rulebooks will be cheap, I suspect, but the Liber books are only sold separately, so not sure you'll get such a good deal there...
Ah, I stupidly forgot to put in the Liber Astartes will be from my usual discounter, the main rule book ebay.
Anyone got any feeling on what will the most picked up of the included models once the boxed set is split on the 'bay?
I'd guess that marines will be fairly cheap and the rulebook will be very cheap, everything else will cost more than what you pay by geting the AoD box (including the characters).
Not convinced on the praetor, I think because there'll be a lower demand the price should drop.
So here is my in-depth review, including sprue pics, scale comparisons with various older marks of power armour, Terminators & 40k models, and contents of the book:
stahly wrote: So here is my in-depth review, including sprue pics, scale comparisons with various older marks of power armour, Terminators & 40k models, and contents of the book:
Nice. The last time I tried to use my OG land raider back in 7e a player younger than the model was claiming that it was a random cheap toy and not an official 40k model. Fortunately, I keep a copy of an old codex in my army list to prove otherwise.
Now I suppose they'll just think it's a 3d printed chibi version!
Its the new Leviathan since it has details above the head which the resin one didn't have (which also confirms a different front plate since its different from the one in this weeks article)
Anybody who knows if they are different than the old drills?
grahamdbailey wrote: New plastic Land Raider Proteus, with or without assault ramp.
I never understood all these years how a land raider with an assault ramp could be equipped with a dozer blade. GW makes finally sense with these different loadouts after 30 years.
SamusDrake wrote: £180 could very well be a "bargain" but its a lot of money for those who want to give the game a try and see if its right for them.
But so is £100 right? That's why only the most expensive starter boxes for 40K and AoS are £100 and there are cheaper options for those that just want to give it a go. Which I would expect we will see down the line. Much like Indomitus and Dominion, this box is very much targeted at those already in the GW eco-system and want to branch out into something new. Except I think they've learned the lesson there that making those launch boxes limited edition wasn't a great move. Especially with Dominion ending up discounted everywhere for no real reason other than they wanted to launch the Extremis starter box. When they could have just made Dominion the actual starter and it not selling through in a few months wouldn't have mattered. We all said that at the time, and now it seems to be what they are doing.
grahamdbailey wrote: New plastic Land Raider Proteus, with or without assault ramp.
I never understood all these years how a land raider with an assault ramp could be equipped with a dozer blade. GW makes finally sense with these different loadouts after 30 years.
I've always felt the problem is calling the upgrade a "dozer blade" in the first place. Calling it something like "rough terrain modification" would be far better, and allow for more possibilities with different vehicles.
Not sure if this has been covered but have GW/FW addressed what arms we're supposed to put on the fancy resin Contemptors now if we wanted to add one to our new army?
grahamdbailey wrote: New plastic Land Raider Proteus, with or without assault ramp.
Looks like these are different vehicles; both Land Raider Proteus, but the one with no assault ramp is the Explorator model with less transport capacity but with the dozer blade and extra sensor array.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hmm... I have one of the original Land Raiders.
Should I repaint it for my World Eaters?
I need to see if I can find mine, too. Unfortunately it lost the lascannon long ago… but you get an extra set with the Spartan so….
grahamdbailey wrote: New plastic Land Raider Proteus, with or without assault ramp.
Looks like these are different vehicles; both Land Raider Proteus, but the one with no assault ramp is the Explorator model with less transport capacity but with the dozer blade and extra sensor array.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? The one without Assault Ramp is an exact copy of the current Proteus(which also lacks the ramp in the rules).
grahamdbailey wrote: New plastic Land Raider Proteus, with or without assault ramp.
Brilliant! Seems I can leave my resin one in the bag. Had a feeling it might be heading to ebay soon
You may want to try to sell it quick. Unless the market for FW vehicles increases with new plastic kits
I need to finish building my Spartan. It will be nice to mix it in with the new plastic ones though.
What other vehicles will be shown off/leaked next? Predator, Vindicator, and Whirlwind all seem likely looking at the rhino sprue setup. Cerberus and Typhon would be sprue swaps of the spartan. Past that, maybe the Javelin and Xiphon?
grahamdbailey wrote: New plastic Land Raider Proteus, with or without assault ramp.
Looks like these are different vehicles; both Land Raider Proteus, but the one with no assault ramp is the Explorator model with less transport capacity but with the dozer blade and extra sensor array.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? The one without Assault Ramp is an exact copy of the current Proteus(which also lacks the ramp in the rules).
Alls I know is what I see in review videos. Basic Proteus has assault ramp, 12 cap. Explorator has no assault ramp, 8 cap, dozer, augur array.
Also, the Spartan retains the option to swap its quad lascannon for LDAs so that’s nice. Free, too. Anyone who’s seen the sprues in detail know if that’s a build option for the plastic kit so far?
Finally, close combat weapons are definitely still a thing for Leviathan dreads; they default to having two claws, which can be individually swapped for drills or guns.
SamusDrake wrote: £180 could very well be a "bargain" but its a lot of money for those who want to give the game a try and see if its right for them.
But so is £100 right? That's why only the most expensive starter boxes for 40K and AoS are £100 and there are cheaper options for those that just want to give it a go. Which I would expect we will see down the line. Much like Indomitus and Dominion, this box is very much targeted at those already in the GW eco-system and want to branch out into something new. Except I think they've learned the lesson there that making those launch boxes limited edition wasn't a great move. Especially with Dominion ending up discounted everywhere for no real reason other than they wanted to launch the Extremis starter box. When they could have just made Dominion the actual starter and it not selling through in a few months wouldn't have mattered. We all said that at the time, and now it seems to be what they are doing.
I can see the point you are trying to make but the fact is that £100 remains far less to gamble with than £180. Not the best of examples, because we are talking about 80% difference in price. That said, I must be fair to you here; the AoS and 40K launch boxes were £125, if memory serves correctly, closing that gulf in price.
Horus Heresy strikes me as a game that'll be marketed at a more advanced audiance. "want a more in depth game then 40k? with a rich setting that almost enchourages a historical approuch? want a game that focuses on bigger armies? then play horus heresy"
BrianDavion wrote: Horus Heresy strikes me as a game that'll be marketed at a more advanced audiance. "want a more in depth game then 40k? with a rich setting that almost enchourages a historical approuch? want a game that focuses on bigger armies? then play horus heresy"
I think part of what made HH that type of game was the fact much of the products were resin and direct only via FW. It meant only a certain type of gamer would ever take the plunge. As GW transitions the range to plastic, I'm sure they'll want to broaden the audience.
BrianDavion wrote: Horus Heresy strikes me as a game that'll be marketed at a more advanced audiance. "want a more in depth game then 40k? with a rich setting that almost enchourages a historical approuch? want a game that focuses on bigger armies? then play horus heresy"
I don't really recognise this stereotype that older, 'more advanced' () gamers/hobbyists are supposed to want a game that takes hours to play, is very complicated, requires huge numbers of models and is to be treated as a 'historical' wargame with the attendant anal-retentive button-counting. My experience is the exact opposite of this. Most of the hobbyists I know of my generation (i.e. old enough to remember Rogue Trader or at least 2nd edition) want fast, fun, streamlined, smaller-scale games. It's the younger ones who seem to enjoy the sort of game you're suggesting HH is designed to be.
BrianDavion wrote: Horus Heresy strikes me as a game that'll be marketed at a more advanced audiance. "want a more in depth game then 40k? with a rich setting that almost enchourages a historical approuch? want a game that focuses on bigger armies? then play horus heresy"
I don't really recognise this stereotype that older, 'more advanced' () gamers/hobbyists are supposed to want a game that takes hours to play, is very complicated, requires huge numbers of models and is to be treated as a 'historical' wargame with the attendant anal-retentive button-counting. My experience is the exact opposite of this. Most of the hobbyists I know of my generation (i.e. old enough to remember Rogue Trader or at least 2nd edition) want fast, fun, streamlined, smaller-scale games. It's the younger ones who seem to enjoy the sort of game you're suggesting HH is designed to be.
I'd say I agree with your appraisal. As a kid I loved the big games that took a whole day to play... as an adult I want games with simple rules that I don't have to invest half my life into learning and a game that I can play a few in a day.
But that's just me. I know there's also old farts who love sitting around for hours on end playing just one game.
At this point I think most of GW's audience is an older audience. In the 90's and 00's it seemed like GW was getting in a lot of new blood with the hobby stores full of high school kids coming in after school. These days I go to the same stores and no one looks under 30.
BrianDavion wrote: Horus Heresy strikes me as a game that'll be marketed at a more advanced audiance. "want a more in depth game then 40k? with a rich setting that almost enchourages a historical approuch? want a game that focuses on bigger armies? then play horus heresy"
I don't really recognise this stereotype that older, 'more advanced' () gamers/hobbyists are supposed to want a game that takes hours to play, is very complicated, requires huge numbers of models and is to be treated as a 'historical' wargame with the attendant anal-retentive button-counting. My experience is the exact opposite of this. Most of the hobbyists I know of my generation (i.e. old enough to remember Rogue Trader or at least 2nd edition) want fast, fun, streamlined, smaller-scale games. It's the younger ones who seem to enjoy the sort of game you're suggesting HH is designed to be.
you're the one who read "older" in my comment, I said more advanced.
I know plenty of older gamers who enjoy more crunch, and yeah others who don't wanna move beyond beer and pretzels.
neither of these is wrong, but they're differant markets.
BrianDavion wrote: you're the one who read "older" in my comment, I said more advanced.
I'd say most other contexts become insulting to whoever you're calling "not advanced"
eh I implied more advanced ruleset etc. and I'm not saying one is more advanced and all people who just stick with 40k are "dumb" etc. but simply that I think GW'll market the Horus Heresy as a "more complex game" for those looking for such a thing.
BrianDavion wrote: you're the one who read "older" in my comment, I said more advanced.
I'd say most other contexts become insulting to whoever you're calling "not advanced"
eh I implied more advanced ruleset etc. and I'm not saying one is more advanced and all people who just stick with 40k are "dumb" etc. but simply that I think GW'll market the Horus Heresy as a "more complex game" for those looking for such a thing.
These are supposed to be beer and pretzels games that you throw some dices with friends... All I see in 40k is a bloated web of rules that to be honest I dont have the time or will to hunt for.
Im part of the crowd that is older and has less time to go through several rulebooks and special WD or dex etc etc...
When you say more complex you mean more micro management detailed? Or even more books after books of rulesets?
So far its only 2 army books and a rulebook on debut right? Pretty much like 40k.
stahly wrote: I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really
What are you even talking about? Its a minimal gap fill on those pics.
It's a two millimetre gap, that's quite noticeable. With some of the weapons, you'll even up with gaps on both wrists. Not impossible, but quite a hassle.
"Each of the 5 weapons fits exactly to one of the five different arm pairs from the new MkVI kit, so you have to be careful when assembling and read the instructions carefully."
stahly wrote: I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really
What are you even talking about? Its a minimal gap fill on those pics.
It's a two millimetre gap, that's quite noticeable. With some of the weapons, you'll even up with gaps on both wrists. Not impossible, but quite a hassle.
Dont want to be difficult but its a minimal gap filling... Also if you shave a bit of the arm part that connects to the shoulder the arm will be closer to the torso itself reducing the gap of the wrist to weapon....
Just dont understand how you can conclude from a small and simple gap filling that they are not compatible...
Great stuff Stahly, thank you. Any chance of seeing if the leftover plastic Contemptor weapons easily fit on a resin body with the shoulders already on?
I think when it comes to the cross compatibility it is a shame that the weapons are not able to be straight swapped. That said it is a case of YMMV with how much effort is needed to make it work. For some it will be some standard hobby work but to others it will not be worth the effort.
stahly wrote: I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really
What are you even talking about? Its a minimal gap fill on those pics.
It's a two millimetre gap, that's quite noticeable. With some of the weapons, you'll even up with gaps on both wrists. Not impossible, but quite a hassle.
Dont want to be difficult but its a minimal gap filling... Also if you shave a bit of the arm part that connects to the shoulder the arm will be closer to the torso itself reducing the gap of the wrist to weapon....
Just dont understand how you can conclude from a small and simple gap filling that they are not compatible...
Well, they're plastic, with enough work anything is compatible You seem to be reading into this something that wasn't said. Stahly didn't say they weren't compatible, he said the answer to the question "do they fit" is "not really". It's pretty obvious that means it's possible to make them fit it'll just take some effort, combined with the picture showing the result it shouldn't be difficult to understand the amount of work involved in making it fit.
Thanks for the comparison. I guess now the scale creep arguments will move onto people insisting "there's practically no gap what so ever there! Infact I think the hole (which doesn't exist) is an improvement!!!"
Wonder if they'll update MK3 and 4 once 2 and 5 are in the wild.
stahly wrote: I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really
What are you even talking about? Its a minimal gap fill on those pics.
It's a two millimetre gap, that's quite noticeable. With some of the weapons, you'll even up with gaps on both wrists. Not impossible, but quite a hassle.
Dont want to be difficult but its a minimal gap filling... Also if you shave a bit of the arm part that connects to the shoulder the arm will be closer to the torso itself reducing the gap of the wrist to weapon....
Just dont understand how you can conclude from a small and simple gap filling that they are not compatible...
They aren't compatible. Like most of us here I'm from the good old days, I've done my time cutting up lead models with razor saws. That experience doesn't mean that these bits are compatible, this can be seen from the pic (I assume he tried a few different combos). You've also overlooked the hand cutting (a more complex job) or chosen to neglect mentioning it.
stahly wrote: I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really
Thanks for those. I'm interested to see how easy it is to magnetise the heavy weapons. Special weapons look doable, but not sure if that set of heavy weapon arms is generic
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: eh I implied more advanced ruleset etc. and I'm not saying one is more advanced and all people who just stick with 40k are "dumb" etc. but simply that I think GW'll market the Horus Heresy as a "more complex game" for those looking for such a thing.
I dunno, I reckon that 30k is the simpler ruleset overall. From the outside, 40k seems to me to be massively complex. Each unit has its own special rules and specific requirements. Add to that Command Points, Strategems and all sorts of wombo combo gotchas seems to me to be a much more complex system and that's not considering the sheer amount of units.
stahly wrote: I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really
What are you even talking about? Its a minimal gap fill on those pics.
It's a two millimetre gap, that's quite noticeable. With some of the weapons, you'll even up with gaps on both wrists. Not impossible, but quite a hassle.
Dont want to be difficult but its a minimal gap filling... Also if you shave a bit of the arm part that connects to the shoulder the arm will be closer to the torso itself reducing the gap of the wrist to weapon....
Just dont understand how you can conclude from a small and simple gap filling that they are not compatible...
Well, they're plastic, with enough work anything is compatible You seem to be reading into this something that wasn't said. Stahly didn't say they weren't compatible, he said the answer to the question "do they fit" is "not really". It's pretty obvious that means it's possible to make them fit it'll just take some effort, combined with the picture showing the result it shouldn't be difficult to understand the amount of work involved in making it fit.
Like you say its plastic all can be done.
Point being if you go to the effort of cutting the hands off in a a funny angle to keep the forearm plates intact then surely you need to tidy it up the wrist gaps later... thats not something complex or particularly difficult or even time consuming.
In the case of plastic you dont even need GS you slice a tiny cylinder from a sprue frame, put it on the gap and flood with plastic glue, that will melt the patch slice and fill the gap.
Filling it is a couple minutes job much like normal gluing 2 parts.
I would say cutting the hands off takes more time.
So yes if you are ok cutting the hands to make it fit and then stopping at the gap filling to say they dont fit then well... dont cut the hands off and stop the review right there because they have an extra hand...XD
Its like I start the race go leaps and bounds but then stop 2mm before the finishing line to say its not doable.
IMO the weapons sizes dont look out of place and if a small gap filling is all it takes to make it happen I would be pretty happy to add it to my army.
The one good thing about the new heavy and special weapons having hands sculpted on them is the much better and more lifelike positioning of the fingers. The resin FW heavy weapons that were modeled to go on Mk3 and 4 bolter-gripping hands never looked quite right.
stahly wrote: I have tried out whether the new Special & Heavy Weapon Upgrade sets fit the old MkIII and MkIV models. The answer: not really
What are you even talking about? Its a minimal gap fill on those pics.
It's a two millimetre gap, that's quite noticeable. With some of the weapons, you'll even up with gaps on both wrists. Not impossible, but quite a hassle.
Dont want to be difficult but its a minimal gap filling... Also if you shave a bit of the arm part that connects to the shoulder the arm will be closer to the torso itself reducing the gap of the wrist to weapon....
Just dont understand how you can conclude from a small and simple gap filling that they are not compatible...
Well, they're plastic, with enough work anything is compatible You seem to be reading into this something that wasn't said. Stahly didn't say they weren't compatible, he said the answer to the question "do they fit" is "not really". It's pretty obvious that means it's possible to make them fit it'll just take some effort, combined with the picture showing the result it shouldn't be difficult to understand the amount of work involved in making it fit.
Like you say its plastic all can be done.
Point being if you go to the effort of cutting the hands off in a a funny angle to keep the forearm plates intact then surely you need to tidy it up the wrist gaps later... thats not something complex or particularly difficult or even time consuming.
In the case of plastic you dont even need GS you slice a tiny cylinder from a sprue frame, put it on the gap and flood with plastic glue, that will melt the patch slice and fill the gap.
Filling it is a couple minutes job much like normal gluing 2 parts.
I would say cutting the hands off takes more time.
So yes if you are ok cutting the hands to make it fit and then stopping at the gap filling to say they dont fit then well... dont cut the hands off and stop the review right there because they have an extra hand...XD
Its like I start the race go leaps and bounds but then stop 2mm before the finishing line to say its not doable.
IMO the weapons sizes dont look out of place and if a small gap filling is all it takes to make it happen I would be pretty happy to add it to my army.
Yeah with some skill you can definitely pull it off, but you also have to consider that you'll end up with quite long wrists. On the MkIV models for example, up to half of the hand is hidden underneath the arm bracers. If you fill the gap and extend the wrist, the whole hand will be visible, which might look a bit off.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: "Each of the 5 weapons fits exactly to one of the five different arm pairs from the new MkVI kit, so you have to be careful when assembling and read the instructions carefully." Ouchie
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: "Each of the 5 weapons fits exactly to one of the five different arm pairs from the new MkVI kit, so you have to be careful when assembling and read the instructions carefully." Ouchie
stahly wrote: Yeah with some skill you can definitely pull it off, but you also have to consider that you'll end up with quite long wrists. On the MkIV models for example, up to half of the hand is hidden underneath the arm bracers. If you fill the gap and extend the wrist, the whole hand will be visible, which might look a bit off.
I think I'd try and shave off the back of the hand to create a tighter fit before filling any gaps.
But it's too time consuming for me to bother doing that on more than a couple of models, certainly wouldn't do it on 10's of models.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Can anyone remind me the difference between the LR Proteus and Explorator, beyond the Assault Ramp?
Proteus never had the assault ramp until now. It was either Phobos (the current plastic kit) with assault ramp or Proteus without. The proteus had 10 transport or you could add an Explorator web and reduce transport to 8. Bare bones Proteus was cheap at 180 points allowing you to spam an AV14 wall. Expensive model wise, probably doable now with the plastic (assuming it stays cheap in game)
Edit: forgot to add, it didn't come with the twin linked heavy bolter on the front, just the sponson lascannons
grahamdbailey wrote: New plastic Land Raider Proteus, with or without assault ramp.
Looks like these are different vehicles; both Land Raider Proteus, but the one with no assault ramp is the Explorator model with less transport capacity but with the dozer blade and extra sensor array.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? The one without Assault Ramp is an exact copy of the current Proteus(which also lacks the ramp in the rules).
Alls I know is what I see in review videos. Basic Proteus has assault ramp, 12 cap. Explorator has no assault ramp, 8 cap, dozer, augur array.
Spoiler:
Also, the Spartan retains the option to swap its quad lascannon for LDAs so that’s nice. Free, too. Anyone who’s seen the sprues in detail know if that’s a build option for the plastic kit so far?
Finally, close combat weapons are definitely still a thing for Leviathan dreads; they default to having two claws, which can be individually swapped for drills or guns.
Also looks like the hull weapon is optional. So you’re giving up one gun and four transport capacity in addition to the ramp to get the dozer blade and the Explorator augury web. For an extra thirty points too. And no squadron option.
That sensor array better be amazing.
You can also see here (1:09:30) if you want to pause/zoom etc.:
Momotaro wrote: Did you try cutting the right hand off the flamer instead?
That's not a terrible idea.
which won't help as from the pictures, the distance between the left and right hand on the flamer is too short to fit the distance on the other armours
so you need to cut the left arm on the shoulder were it is glued to the body, to get the whole thing more right to fit the hands
it does not matter which hands you cut off, you need to repose the arms
From Stahlys article I find it quite unfortunate that they're sticking to the bloated 7th Edition rules. I had hoped for a reasonable in between 7th and 8th, but I guess they didn't want to alienate the existing playerbase and assume plastic will be good enough to draw in new players despite subpar rules. I do like the reaction mechanic though, seems to add some tactics to that system which is surely needed from my experience with 7th.
All those plastic Land Raiders are great to see... Must resist to add these to my existing Chaos Land Raider that sits on the pile since 4 years or so
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I guess they didn't want to alienate the existing playerbase and assume plastic will be good enough to draw in new players despite subpar rules.
Translated: I have an opinion that disagrees with the people who have been supporting this game for the past 5 years despite it being on death's door.
Wait, are there really actually people just finding out today that Age of Darkness 2nd ed is not jumping to a wildly different rules system?
Actually that’s kind of a lie; the reactions are the flagship feature for sure but the changes to the WS system and all the other refinements add up to some quite significant gameplay changes.
They just haven’t got around to switching to postage stamp sized tables with no cover yet.
It's at least in part the "7th with some new bells and whistles" approach that makes me and the people I've spoken to actually want this, including a lot of 40k players from the club I play at
I’m interested to see how many, if indeed any, Custodes toys get ported over to plastic. Because whilst their range models are lovely, they feel a bit boring in 40K when their vehicles are just shiny Marine vehicles.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I had hoped for a reasonable in between 7th and 8th, but I guess they didn't want to alienate the existing playerbase and assume plastic will be good enough to draw in new players despite subpar rules
you are talking about 40k now?
as 30k has the superior rules since its beginning? a cleaned up 7th edition core, with no codex creep makes the superior game, and by not going the rout of 8th edition but making the necessary changes to the 3rd Edition core people are asking since, well, 3rd Edition (aka make high WS count and not just pay points for something that is not worth it)
hence why a lot of 40k players look into it now, good rules are enough to get new players in, even if it is expensive to start
and I don't think it will take very long until the first 40k "mods" for the Age of Darkness rules come up
tneva82 wrote: Compared to 40k lot less bloat and faster to play.
Does that summarise the new HH edition well?
From where I sit, if HH is built to be a game of large armies, I want the rules to be streamlined. Not necessarily simplified, but minimise gotcha moments, multiple rule interactions, rules the interrupt the flow of play, and rules that require too much thinking between actions.
If that describes HH then it makes me more interested. But each to their own I guess.
I have no idea where HH sits on the scale of streamlinedness, I haven't even played a game of 40k in the past few edition changes let alone HH.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m interested to see how many, if indeed any, Custodes toys get ported over to plastic. Because whilst their range models are lovely, they feel a bit boring in 40K when their vehicles are just shiny Marine vehicles.
Oh my, yes, this; compared to their 30k armoury, 40K Custodes are just not really firing on all cylinders. Three units and shiny land raiders are just not really enough.
tneva82 wrote: Compared to 40k lot less bloat and faster to play.
Does that summarise the new HH edition well?
From where I sit, if HH is built to be a game of large armies, I want the rules to be streamlined. Not necessarily simplified, but minimise gotcha moments, multiple rule interactions, rules the interrupt the flow of play, and rules that require too much thinking between actions.
If that describes HH then it makes me more interested. But each to their own I guess.
I have no idea where HH sits on the scale of streamlinedness, I haven't even played a game of 40k in the past few edition changes let alone HH.
Heresy is based on the 3rd to 7th ruleset with a lot of the more overpowered features removed (I’m counting formations here amongst most). You’d typically have a more predictable game in that you generally know what to expect with most opponents. Yes, there were things more overpowered than most (phosphex, iron warriors ironfire) but they were either ironed out or frowned upon if abused. Gotcha moments weren’t really a thing. I don’t know how reactions will change that, but the rules seem pretty similar in most respects
kodos wrote: and I don't think it will take very long until the first 40k "mods" for the Age of Darkness rules come up
Already happened for the Eldar and Necrons. Hell, the Mournival actually produced a physical book for Asurani rules
I not mean adding rules for those to HH but more like adopting the new rules for 40k (specially the groups that still play legacy 5th or 7th might just switch directly to HH2 rules)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m interested to see how many, if indeed any, Custodes toys get ported over to plastic. Because whilst their range models are lovely, they feel a bit boring in 40K when their vehicles are just shiny Marine vehicles.
Oh my, yes, this; compared to their 30k armoury, 40K Custodes are just not really firing on all cylinders. Three units and shiny land raiders are just not really enough.
30K AdMech vehicles and bots are the current gold standard for warhams minis imo. I would welcome plastic HH AdMech.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: From Stahlys article I find it quite unfortunate that they're sticking to the bloated 7th Edition rules. I had hoped for a reasonable in between 7th and 8th, but I guess they didn't want to alienate the existing playerbase and assume plastic will be good enough to draw in new players despite subpar rules. I do like the reaction mechanic though, seems to add some tactics to that system which is surely needed from my experience with 7th.
30K AdMech vehicles and bots are the current gold standard for warhams minis imo. I would welcome plastic HH AdMech.
Plastic Thallax would seem to me to be the most obvious Mechanicum unit to rework first, they were the first back in the day and could be taken by Legion forces from the very start.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: From Stahlys article I find it quite unfortunate that they're sticking to the bloated 7th Edition rules. I had hoped for a reasonable in between 7th and 8th, but I guess they didn't want to alienate the existing playerbase and assume plastic will be good enough to draw in new players despite subpar rules. I do like the reaction mechanic though, seems to add some tactics to that system which is surely needed from my experience with 7th.
8th and 9th editions are somehow not bloated?
9th got the bloat in its Codex rules while with 7th it's in the Core rules. So yes, 9th is very much less bloated than 7th if we look at the core rules. If the HH team got around to make sense out of some of the bloat that's good of course (like people mentioning a reworked WS system that I'd have to look into). And I give the HH team credit for having used the morale rules of 7th properly in HH so far while they never served a purpose in 40K because 90% of the armies ignored them. Keeping the tank rules, unit types, Ap system , IGOUGO, wound allocation from 7th just doesn't sound very appealing to me. But I'll look into batreps and some more reviews before drawing a final conclusion.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: From Stahlys article I find it quite unfortunate that they're sticking to the bloated 7th Edition rules. I had hoped for a reasonable in between 7th and 8th, but I guess they didn't want to alienate the existing playerbase and assume plastic will be good enough to draw in new players despite subpar rules. I do like the reaction mechanic though, seems to add some tactics to that system which is surely needed from my experience with 7th.
8th and 9th editions are somehow not bloated?
9th got the bloat in its Codex rules while with 7th it's in the Core rules. So yes, 9th is very much less bloated than 7th if we look at the core rules. If the HH team got around to make sense out of some of the bloat that's good of course (like people mentioning a reworked WS system that I'd have to look into). And I give the HH team credit for having used the morale rules of 7th properly in HH so far while they never served a purpose in 40K because 90% of the armies ignored them. Keeping the tank rules, unit types, Ap system , IGOUGO, wound allocation from 7th just doesn't sound very appealing to me. But I'll look into batreps and some more reviews before drawing a final conclusion.
7th uses the USR system however you don´t need to know all of them to play a game as your force will only contain a fraction of them. And yes, the melee to-hit-chart and the to-wound-chart had been reworked.
30K AdMech vehicles and bots are the current gold standard for warhams minis imo. I would welcome plastic HH AdMech.
Plastic Thallax would seem to me to be the most obvious Mechanicum unit to rework first, they were the first back in the day and could be taken by Legion forces from the very start.
Yes, and also, hoverboats out, clockwork crawlers in, plus some Ordinatus. Ordinatus Centurio, Macrocarid and Triaros would be top of my list. Thanatar also very cool (though a pain to build).
Sgt. Cortez wrote: From Stahlys article I find it quite unfortunate that they're sticking to the bloated 7th Edition rules. I had hoped for a reasonable in between 7th and 8th, but I guess they didn't want to alienate the existing playerbase and assume plastic will be good enough to draw in new players despite subpar rules. I do like the reaction mechanic though, seems to add some tactics to that system which is surely needed from my experience with 7th.
8th and 9th editions are somehow not bloated?
9th got the bloat in its Codex rules while with 7th it's in the Core rules. So yes, 9th is very much less bloated than 7th if we look at the core rules. If the HH team got around to make sense out of some of the bloat that's good of course (like people mentioning a reworked WS system that I'd have to look into). And I give the HH team credit for having used the morale rules of 7th properly in HH so far while they never served a purpose in 40K because 90% of the armies ignored them. Keeping the tank rules, unit types, Ap system , IGOUGO, wound allocation from 7th just doesn't sound very appealing to me. But I'll look into batreps and some more reviews before drawing a final conclusion.
I'm assuming you haven't played heresy 1.00 or 2.00 then?
Once you've got the USRs down you barely need to look at the rulebook, and the benefit of USRs is you don't need to check every datasheet for the exact wording of a rule on a unit. It's very quick and simple. Like you said morale is way better and actually mattes compared to 7th/8/9th, and units running away feels much more "right" than models just evaporating after the unit gets scared. Armour values for vehicles is far more more elegant way of doing things than 9th and for Dreadnaughts and monsters they've given anti tank weapons instant death (which does d3 wounds Vs them) or additional rules (melta rerolls failed wounds at half range against robots and dreads for example) the AP system in 2.00 is quite elegant. The higher AP values are as normal (ie ap6-ap3) but most templates andd things like plasma are Ap4 with a rending value, making It very difficult to hose down models with 3+ or 2+ saves without serious effort.
I would definitely encourage you watch some games and try it if you like the heresy setting. Although based on 7th which did become a ness by the end, heresy is a really good game, far better than 9th in my opinion if you want an immersive game, and 2.0 improves on it on the whole. The only issue is wound allocation being "player picks" so allows some things like the guy with a 2+ tanking all the bolter shots, but I would expect that to be FAQd quite fast
Don’t worry if you don’t especially love the rules, when blood bowl 2016 dropped, they essentially left the game compatible with the living rule book. Four years later, they changed it just enough including adding a new stat that you could either adopt the new edition and potentially get games OR hope that at least someone local would continue using older rules.
Gonna need a whole bunch of the new land raiders. Got a 2nd Ed lamenters army that will need one as well as my heresy armies. Probably my space wolves 40k army as well, such a nostalgic model.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I had hoped for a reasonable in between 7th and 8th, but I guess they didn't want to alienate the existing playerbase and assume plastic will be good enough to draw in new players despite subpar rules
you are talking about 40k now?
as 30k has the superior rules since its beginning? a cleaned up 7th edition core, with no codex creep makes the superior game, and by not going the rout of 8th edition but making the necessary changes to the 3rd Edition core people are asking since, well, 3rd Edition (aka make high WS count and not just pay points for something that is not worth it)
hence why a lot of 40k players look into it now, good rules are enough to get new players in, even if it is expensive to start
and I don't think it will take very long until the first 40k "mods" for the Age of Darkness rules come up
I haven't enjoyed 40k since 4th edition and even I'm optimistic about HH2. A solid build of the 3rd edition core, with fairly symmetrical gameplay sounds perfect. The issue with 7th was list building, not mechnics.
Momotaro wrote: Did you try cutting the right hand off the flamer instead?
That's not a terrible idea.
which won't help as from the pictures, the distance between the left and right hand on the flamer is too short to fit the distance on the other armours
so you need to cut the left arm on the shoulder were it is glued to the body, to get the whole thing more right to fit the hands
it does not matter which hands you cut off, you need to repose the arms
Sgt. Cortez wrote: 9th got the bloat in its Codex rules while with 7th it's in the Core rules. So yes, 9th is very much less bloated than 7th if we look at the core rules.
so you have never played 7th 40k or Horus Heresy but assume that because there is more text in the core rules, the system must be more bloated
if we talk about bloat, we mean unnecessary amount of text, that is there to add the illusion of complexity and does nothing for the game
that 7th has all the rules needed for the game in the core and not spread out over different books, does not make it bloated but actually more streamlined than 9th
The fact they they deliberately designed these weapons to only fit MK6, or require extensive cutting is INDEFENSIBLE. If you think this is not the intent you're lying to yourself. Every marine kit since 2013 has followed the same weapon - arm layout and it suddenly changes here? Alongside kits that follow this tried and true method. Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
This is a gak tier marketing tactic. Yup you can cut it, but having to cut and greenstuff a gap that shouldn't even be there in the first place is so fething stupid. They obviously just want you to buy mk6 and not use that nice juicy bits box of special weapons you have stocked up. And people with limited hobby capabilities will not even bother. This also means any future infantry will have the same design.
tneva82 wrote: Compared to 40k lot less bloat and faster to play.
Does that summarise the new HH edition well?
From where I sit, if HH is built to be a game of large armies, I want the rules to be streamlined. Not necessarily simplified, but minimise gotcha moments, multiple rule interactions, rules the interrupt the flow of play, and rules that require too much thinking between actions.
If that describes HH then it makes me more interested. But each to their own I guess.
I have no idea where HH sits on the scale of streamlinedness, I haven't even played a game of 40k in the past few edition changes let alone HH.
Too much thinking between actions?
With the new reaction system you might want to better think twice what to do as the opponent might be able to REACT in some way. Want to shoot an Iron Warriors unit who has pretty good ranged firepower? After you do that they may fire back TWICE. Ouch!
Midnightdeathblade wrote: The fact they they deliberately designed these weapons to only fit MK6, or require extensive cutting is INDEFENSIBLE. If you think this is not the intent you're lying to yourself. Every marine kit since 2013 has followed the same weapon - arm layout and it suddenly changes here? Alongside kits that follow this tried and true method. Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
This is a gak tier marketing tactic. Yup you can cut it, but having to cut and greenstuff a gap that shouldn't even be there in the first place is so fething stupid. They obviously just want you to buy mk6 and not use that nice juicy bits box of special weapons you have stocked up. And people with limited hobby capabilities will not even bother. This also means any future infantry will have the same design.
You can paste mkiii arms onto mkiv / primaris bodies? Just eyeing the various kits, I'd bet money you can't.
It would take some work, ie they aren't compatible, which is his issue (though the claim seems to be that everything up to this point has been compatible, I think is a false claim).
Midnightdeathblade wrote: The fact they they deliberately designed these weapons to only fit MK6, or require extensive cutting is INDEFENSIBLE. If you think this is not the intent you're lying to yourself. Every marine kit since 2013 has followed the same weapon - arm layout and it suddenly changes here? Alongside kits that follow this tried and true method. Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
This is a gak tier marketing tactic. Yup you can cut it, but having to cut and greenstuff a gap that shouldn't even be there in the first place is so fething stupid. They obviously just want you to buy mk6 and not use that nice juicy bits box of special weapons you have stocked up. And people with limited hobby capabilities will not even bother. This also means any future infantry will have the same design.
You can paste mkiii arms onto mkiv / primaris bodies? Just eyeing the various kits, I'd bet money you can't.
Why are you defending GW here? They very easily could have designed the new MK6 arms to match the positioning of the previous standard for the MK3 and MK4 (and basically all original marine sculpts). But they chose not to. In that regard, it's hard to see how this wasn't a decision based in pushing people to the new kits.
I can understand being optimistic about GW and some of the things they do because you like their product and support them. I, on the whole, don't support a lot of how GW does things, but I can still give them credit when they do things well. But I don't understand this compulsive need to defend every single decision they make, when some of them appear to be anti-consumer.
Do people like you have a credit system where they pay you 30 cents every time you make a bad argument in defence of GW online?
Rumor I don't believe but want to spread anyway because it's a fun topic for discussion:
from a stranger on discord, who again I do not believe at all
"so gw news, almost all the hh stuff will be available for 40k rules wise over the next few years"
They went on to specify this doesn't include named characters/primarchs, but does include stuff that otherwise hasn't been ported to 40k yet. Including the new special/heavy weapons boxes. And possibly legion specific units, tho they may get a "relic terminator treatment" whatever that means.
Aside from this pretty obviously not being true, I wish it was and I bet other people do too. MAN would I like being able to pop volkite into my CSM squads
cole1114 wrote: Rumor I don't believe but want to spread anyway because it's a fun topic for discussion:
from a stranger on discord, who again I do not believe at all
"so gw news, almost all the hh stuff will be available for 40k rules wise over the next few years"
They went on to specify this doesn't include named characters/primarchs, but does include stuff that otherwise hasn't been ported to 40k yet. Including the new special/heavy weapons boxes. And possibly legion specific units, tho they may get a "relic terminator treatment" whatever that means.
Aside from this pretty obviously not being true, I wish it was and I bet other people do too. MAN would I like being able to pop volkite into my CSM squads
What do you mean? This _is_ true.
Every vehicle so far has had a 'will (or does) have 40k rules' somewhere in the article about it. for example:
You’ll also be able to get rules to use it in your games of Warhammer 40,000, for while Leviathans are rare in the 41st Millennium, some are still knocking around and making a proper nuisance of themselves…
Relic terminators already exist in the loyalist codex, and most of the special/heavy weapons do as well. I don't know if volkite guns and rotor cannons will wander into tactical squads, but obviously meltas, flamers, etc and heavy bolters and missile launchers already exist.
So yes, 'almost all the hh stuff will be available for 40k' is absolutely true.
JWBS wrote: Guys! Guys! He's being paid by GW! His perspective is different to mine, ipso facto he's a shill! Look! Over there - there he is!
Yes, there you are.
But do you have a response to the actual topic that was being discussed?
jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I can understand being optimistic about GW and some of the things they do because you like their product and support them. I, on the whole, don't support a lot of how GW does things, but I can still give them credit when they do things well. But I don't understand this compulsive need to defend every single decision they make, when some of them appear to be anti-consumer.
Do people like you have a credit system where they pay you 30 cents every time you make a bad argument in defence of GW online?
lolwtf are you even talking about?
I'm gonna briefly skim my posts from this month and see where I've not liked what they've done. Okay, I'm back -
Yes, incredibly disappointing, but I have views on stuff ranging from positive through indifferent all the way to negative. But yeah now I think about it, I suppose you're right. I'm very upset that the new arms don't fit the old models. Any other view would be bizarre, disgusting, bordering on derranged. They're not paying me guys, I swear! I'm actually very angry about this important complication, and I'll continue to be angry about everything else they do going forward, I promise!
JWBS wrote: It would take some work, ie they aren't compatible, which is his issue (though the claim seems to be that everything up to this point has been compatible, I think is a false claim).
It is a false claim as some of the Primaris kits already have split hands, even split fingers between the hands e.g. Reivers. Sure we’ve had similar approaches but the “fits this kit only” thing is in no way new.
JWBS wrote: It would take some work, ie they aren't compatible, which is his issue (though the claim seems to be that everything up to this point has been compatible, I think is a false claim).
It is a false claim as some of the Primaris kits already have split hands, even split fingers between the hands e.g. Reivers. Sure we’ve had similar approaches but the “fits this kit only” thing is in no way new.
Indeed. Personally I don't care at all, these days I tend to build models as supplied, taking into account the cross compaitbility and conversion potential, and concentrate my hobby efforts mainly on painting. My life is comfortable, and even so, the fact that I can't stick my mk2 arms on my mk6 bodies doesn't even come close to scraping my top 100 list of things to be worried about. Some might disagree with this perspective, but again, I don't care, they can accept my outlook or they can seethe that I don't agree with them. Really really don't care.
[The £0.20 has been transferred to your paypal account. See you at next month's meeting, and please remember to delete this part of the message when you post your response on Dakkadakka. Regards, James Workshop]
Welp, I got my first day preorder in for the core box and some extras. First time I've ever jumped in like this.
I'm gonna paint them Flesh Tearers (one of the original first founding chapters of course), buy a couple of Land Raider Proteus boxes and play only by 2nd edition rules.
This post is only a joke insofar as I end up finding it impossible to find people to play Rogue Trader rules with.
JohnnyHell wrote: It is a false claim as some of the Primaris kits already have split hands, even split fingers between the hands e.g. Reivers. Sure we’ve had similar approaches but the “fits this kit only” thing is in no way new.
This is completely missing the point and obfuscating the issue for the sake of god knows what. With the way 40k has been designed after 7th edition, it doesn't matter that primaris can't interchange arms/weapons, because each units available load out is limited to what comes on its respective sprues.
MK3, MK4 and MK6 are all interchangeable in the army list when it comes to support squads and heavy support squads. They all use the same equipment and fulfill comparable roles in the list. FW's previous approach reflected this. It would thus be logical for them to continue this way unless the new non-inclusive design approach satisfied some much bigger issue that supplanted interchangeability.
I challenge you to come up with a reasonable reason to abandon an existing inclusive design logic that would make these new weapon sprues backwards compatible. Do they look massively improved? Maybe a little, but not to the degree that makes it worth giving up modularity.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I challenge you to come up with a reasonable reason to abandon an existing inclusive design logic that would make these new weapon sprues backwards compatible. Do they look massively improved? Maybe a little, but not to the degree that makes it worth giving up modularity.
I challenge you to come up with a reasonable reason to abandon an existing inclusive design logic that would make these new weapon sprues backwards compatible. Do they look massively improved? Maybe a little, but not to the degree that makes it worth giving up modularity.
You've hit on the reason right there in your post, though. The reason is that GW's current design focus is on models that look good straight from the sprue, rather than modularity. I would suspect that for most models being sculpted right now, potential modularity is only considered if and where it doesn't take time away from just getting the model finished and tooled for production.
Whether or not that's a 'reasonable' reason is going to come down to personal preference.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: The fact they they deliberately designed these weapons to only fit MK6, or require extensive cutting is INDEFENSIBLE. If you think this is not the intent you're lying to yourself. Every marine kit since 2013 has followed the same weapon - arm layout and it suddenly changes here? Alongside kits that follow this tried and true method. Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
This is a gak tier marketing tactic. Yup you can cut it, but having to cut and greenstuff a gap that shouldn't even be there in the first place is so fething stupid. They obviously just want you to buy mk6 and not use that nice juicy bits box of special weapons you have stocked up. And people with limited hobby capabilities will not even bother. This also means any future infantry will have the same design.
The MkVI models are clearly larger than the MkIII and MkIV to bring them in line with current CSM. This means their arms are bigger. In addition they don't have the wrist protectors the MkIII and MkIV have that help guide the hand in place when gluing the model together, which means they had to make adjustments to how the hands and arms meet. Further more the company has moved away from the "gun floating in a roughly U shaped left hand" design since the MkIV came out allowing for hands that look like they're more naturally holding the weapons. Pairing this all up together means that the was going to be a design shift to make the bolters work with MkVI that was different than Mks III and IV. That carried over to the special and heavy weapons which were likely designed later to match specific sets of arms to ensure they basically just drop right into place.
Basically: things changed like they always do and as such the MkIII and IV aren't as out of the box compatible with the MkVI weapon options. Now, hopefully GW sees the response from the community as a reason to give us MkIII and IV special and heavy weapons kits or has them coming in a later wave of releases like the missing shoulder pads and head options for the other legions.
I get people aren't happy (I mean it's Dakka, I've never seen people around here have a 100% postive response rate to anything) but can we tone the hyperbole with claims that it's "indefensible" when clearly this came out of trying to standardize the model scales that started with the updated CSM and Primaris lines and has carried over into Sisters and Eldar? Yes, it's bleeding into HH too, but I see this update to make models feel like they're in scale representations over everyone being 1" tall regardless of actual height a positive thing even if it causes wrinkles along the way.
I challenge you to come up with a reasonable reason to abandon an existing inclusive design logic that would make these new weapon sprues backwards compatible. Do they look massively improved? Maybe a little, but not to the degree that makes it worth giving up modularity.
You've hit on the reason right there in your post, though. The reason is that GW's current design focus is on models that look good straight from the sprue, rather than modularity. I would suspect that for most models being sculpted right now, potential modularity is only considered if and where it doesn't take time away from just getting the model finished and tooled for production.
Whether or not that's a 'reasonable' reason is going to come down to personal preference.
Pretty much this. GW has shown in recent years that they're trying to lower the bar to getting a nice looking model out of the box that looks in scale relative to other models in the setting and natural in how it's positioned which has cut down on the ease in which people can convert things. As someone who likes a good kitbash myself I can respect the pain that it brings, but the "no reason to do this" crowd really is just assuming that GW isn't trying to make it easier to people who don't want to kitbash to have nice looking models that aren't all gaking their pants.
Whereas some of us don't think that the two things are mutually exclusive. Moreover, we don't think it should be reflected in the increasingly-restrictive rules.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Whereas some of us don't think that the two things are mutually exclusive. Moreover, we don't think it should be reflected in the increasingly-restrictive rules.
Yeah, and it comes off as being mad that a physical product that has to fit into a pre-defined box and come in under a specific weight with the intent of supporting a specific product can't also support a bunch of different products that were made years earlier under different standards and design language.
At this point it's probably easier to get some 3rd party .stl weapons than it is to yell at GW for not filling your specific modelling requirements. Like if they aren't going to sell you the thing you want to make your specific ideas possible then give your money to someone who does.
Or is this supposed to be the bit where I scream about 3d printing being evil?
EDIT: As for the rules for 40k, that's hardly relevant to a HH thread, but I'll bite: GW was blasted FOR YEARS for "greedy practices" of not giving enough weapons in a kit for every model to have whatever the current meta loadout was. Despite the points about box size and weight limits I've mentioned. Now that they're addressing that the new complaint is that we can't min-max our squads? Is that really the hill we need to die on now?
And yeah, I didn't like how they did it for Sword Brethren because it made the datasheet too clunky. Chosen/Chaos Terminators definitely have the better solution that streamlines gameplay, allows players to be creative, but also doesn't put people into needing to go through the hassle of needing 5 sets of lighting claws on their Vanguard Veterans because that's the current meta pick for the quarter.
ClockworkZion wrote: Yeah, and it comes off as being mad that a physical product that has to fit into a pre-defined box and come in under a specific weight with the intent of supporting a specific product can't also support a bunch of different products that were made years earlier under different standards and design language.
Yeah, 'cause that's what I was getting at...
ClockworkZion wrote: Or is this supposed to be the bit where I scream about 3d printing being evil?
You can scream about whatever you want.
ClockworkZion wrote: GW was blasted FOR YEARS for "greedy practices" of not giving enough weapons in a kit for every model to have whatever the current meta loadout was. Despite the points about box size and weight limits I've mentioned. Now that they're addressing that the new complaint is that we can't min-max our squads? Is that really the hill we need to die on now?
That was happening before it had anything to do with what we call the 'meta' today. As for dying on hills, there's a whole thread about kit restrictions and how it relates to the rules. It's pretty universally against such practices. People don't like the absurd unit entries that we get for Sword Brethren, Skitarii, Primaris Captains, Plague Terminators, Wyches, and so on. It's so unnecessary. And "They can't because of kit weight!" might be the weakest new excuse I've seen in a while. The Havoc Sprue absolutely needed a bunch of meele/special weapons and a tactical rock for the Champion, but not a second Chaincannon.
This is a problem of their own creation. Making excuses about box size and weight limits is asinine. This was an issue before 'current meta' became the 'current meta', and it will be afterwards.
Does anyone else see the Rule of Cool of these 30K guys, Dread's, or vehicles popping up out of the Warp, appearing as a goal for a battle, or finding them in a campaign game as a reinforcements goal, or a prize for use in current armies?
Until I saw the box this weekend, I was only interested in about two boxes of beakies as some add-ons to a reinvention of the 2d edition boxed forces I'm interested in putting together.
Now, I'm inclined to getting a batch of these guys, adding in some 40K appurtenances and making a couple of Fallen Squads.
There is some good looking stuff here, regardless of having to sell GW your soul to get it.
I know Volkite weapons mightn't be the best for anti-Marine work compared to other weapons, but I still want to build squads of 'em or put 'em on sponsons for no other reason than they look awesome.
Chain cannon is a good example of how little of the original context we have, and how negative nancies effectively have to just make stuff up in their heads to fit a pre-existing "GW are poppy heads" prejudice.
It's been stated pretty clearly before now how the models and kits are designed mostly independently of the rules. So what you have is a designer(/s) putting together a sprue of components with at least a vague brief. For Havocs? They're an established unit that has a few solid expectations; it should at least match the existing devastation sprue, it should include a wide variety of existing known quantities, like heavy bolters,, lascannons, etc.
So that's what they do. Then they notice that, having covered most of the bases, if they shift some components around here and there, they can fit one more heavy weapon in, and decide to go for a massive chain cannon.
The codex writers get their hands on the nee models and immediately set about incorporating this unique new weapon into the squad. The rules end up being pretty nifty because, well, you only get one of them, right?
WRONG
WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IS SOME PENNY PINCHER AT HEAD OFFICE IS LIKE "HEH HEH HEH HEH HEHHHH, I WANT YOU TO PUT A COOL OVERPOWERED WEAPON ON THE SPRUE SO THE PLEBS HAVE TO BUY FOUR BOXES!!!!"
AND THE GHOST OF BRYAN ANSELL CRIES A GHOSTLY TEAR INTO AN OCEAN OF HAUNTED SCREAMS ETC
It could be either, it could even be a mixture of both. But surely it isn't worth getting worked up over?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: The fact they they deliberately designed these weapons to only fit MK6, or require extensive cutting is INDEFENSIBLE. If you think this is not the intent you're lying to yourself. Every marine kit since 2013 has followed the same weapon - arm layout and it suddenly changes here? Alongside kits that follow this tried and true method. Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
This is a gak tier marketing tactic. Yup you can cut it, but having to cut and greenstuff a gap that shouldn't even be there in the first place is so fething stupid. They obviously just want you to buy mk6 and not use that nice juicy bits box of special weapons you have stocked up. And people with limited hobby capabilities will not even bother. This also means any future infantry will have the same design.
You can paste mkiii arms onto mkiv / primaris bodies? Just eyeing the various kits, I'd bet money you can't.
I knew in the back of my head that someone would read my statement of "every marine kit since 2013" and bring up fething primaris marines. I just didn't think it would happen immediately lmao. Lets clear this up, FIRST-BORN MARINE KITS.
JohnnyHell wrote: It is a false claim as some of the Primaris kits already have split hands, even split fingers between the hands e.g. Reivers. Sure we’ve had similar approaches but the “fits this kit only” thing is in no way new.
This is completely missing the point and obfuscating the issue for the sake of god knows what. With the way 40k has been designed after 7th edition, it doesn't matter that primaris can't interchange arms/weapons, because each units available load out is limited to what comes on its respective sprues.
MK3, MK4 and MK6 are all interchangeable in the army list when it comes to support squads and heavy support squads. They all use the same equipment and fulfill comparable roles in the list. FW's previous approach reflected this. It would thus be logical for them to continue this way unless the new non-inclusive design approach satisfied some much bigger issue that supplanted interchangeability.
I challenge you to come up with a reasonable reason to abandon an existing inclusive design logic that would make these new weapon sprues backwards compatible. Do they look massively improved? Maybe a little, but not to the degree that makes it worth giving up modularity.
But that goes against the GW Hobby. Build as per instructions. Mixing kits? Heresy!
People wanted dynamic poses, gw provided. Maybe not in shape people wanted. You need to be careful with what you wish from gw
How annyoing, I wish GW would just stick to the 3rd edition method of putting handles on weapons, and hands on arms (if that makes sense). Makes swapping among kits easier and allows us to put weapons on someone's back or on a base or whatever. I don't see the advantage of molding on hands to guns.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: How annyoing, I wish GW would just stick to the 3rd edition method of putting handles on weapons, and hands on arms (if that makes sense). Makes swapping among kits easier and allows us to put weapons on someone's back or on a base or whatever. I don't see the advantage of molding on hands to guns.
The fingers look better.
That's about it. Whether that's enough of a positive to counter the negatives, well, that's up to personal preferences.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean, Rule of Cool is all over these things.
I know Volkite weapons mightn't be the best for anti-Marine work compared to other weapons, but I still want to build squads of 'em or put 'em on sponsons for no other reason than they look awesome.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean, Rule of Cool is all over these things.
I know Volkite weapons mightn't be the best for anti-Marine work compared to other weapons, but I still want to build squads of 'em or put 'em on sponsons for no other reason than they look awesome.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean, Rule of Cool is all over these things.
I know Volkite weapons mightn't be the best for anti-Marine work compared to other weapons, but I still want to build squads of 'em or put 'em on sponsons for no other reason than they look awesome.
Volkite are (were?) some of the better weapons when dealing with Marines. The high strength, sheer number of shots and the deflagrate rule really help. Culverins will devastate marines and even terminators will struggle through 40 Culverin shots from a 10 man heavy support squad.
ClockworkZion wrote: Yeah, and it comes off as being mad that a physical product that has to fit into a pre-defined box and come in under a specific weight with the intent of supporting a specific product can't also support a bunch of different products that were made years earlier under different standards and design language.
Yeah, 'cause that's what I was getting at...
ClockworkZion wrote: Or is this supposed to be the bit where I scream about 3d printing being evil?
You can scream about whatever you want.
ClockworkZion wrote: GW was blasted FOR YEARS for "greedy practices" of not giving enough weapons in a kit for every model to have whatever the current meta loadout was. Despite the points about box size and weight limits I've mentioned. Now that they're addressing that the new complaint is that we can't min-max our squads? Is that really the hill we need to die on now?
That was happening before it had anything to do with what we call the 'meta' today. As for dying on hills, there's a whole thread about kit restrictions and how it relates to the rules. It's pretty universally against such practices. People don't like the absurd unit entries that we get for Sword Brethren, Skitarii, Primaris Captains, Plague Terminators, Wyches, and so on. It's so unnecessary. And "They can't because of kit weight!" might be the weakest new excuse I've seen in a while. The Havoc Sprue absolutely needed a bunch of meele/special weapons and a tactical rock for the Champion, but not a second Chaincannon.
This is a problem of their own creation. Making excuses about box size and weight limits is asinine. This was an issue before 'current meta' became the 'current meta', and it will be afterwards.
I mean you don't have to like for it to be a thing. The considerations and limitations in designing models, feed into how they design rules. Just because the community insists the game should play like x doesn't mean it's what they intended. If anything it seems GW is taking a heavier handed approach to bring the game they intend and the game we play in line with each other.
Either way, cluttering up the HH thread with complaints about 40k doesn't really do anyone favors so let's stow this for a more topical location in the future.
blood reaper wrote: My only hope is that we get a Deimos Pattern Predator - the Forge World price is total extortion.
I'd say there's a good chance. Looking at the Deimos Rhino sprue's hints that the it's ready for expansions such as a scorpius or predator sprues and parts
Edit: and there's the universal sponson sprue. So we know predators will be getting Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Volkite Culverins and Heavy Flamers for sponsons at least. I wouldn't be surprise if the turret weapons end up being the current crop (Plasma Executioner, Magma Melta, Flamestorm, Predator Cannon, Heavy Conversion Beamer) and take away the Twin Lascannon and add in some sort of new Volkite weapon
blood reaper wrote: My only hope is that we get a Deimos Pattern Predator - the Forge World price is total extortion.
I honestly can’t imagine we won’t get them and the other chassis variants.
I mean, the whole reason the Rhino chassis is ubiquitous in the background is it was cheaper tooling for GW in the dim and distant. Speaking of dim and distant? I’m fairly sure the original Rhino kit was a single sprue, doubled up? Might’ve been three sprues to the kit though, as the exhaust pipes were for left and right side. But the track assembly was two of the same sprue.
From there, as we eventually saw, a single sprue then made it a Predator.
This is also why the Rhino, Land Raider and Predator could be taken by more than just Marines. Maximum bang for GW’s tooling investment when plastic was a serious financial unknown.
The same thinking brought us Adeptus Titanicus, both versions. And it applies to Heresy. Start with the chassis as a proper kit, designed and tooled for easy upgrade sprues. That initial investment then does the heavy lifting, as any variant really just needs to pay for its unique sprue(s) rather than being a whole new kit unto itself.
I mean, the whole reason the Rhino chassis is ubiquitous in the background is it was cheaper tooling for GW in the dim and distant. Speaking of dim and distant? I’m fairly sure the original Rhino kit was a single sprue, doubled up? Might’ve been three sprues to the kit though, as the exhaust pipes were for left and right side. But the track assembly was two of the same sprue.
From there, as we eventually saw, a single sprue then made it a Predator.
This is also why the Rhino, Land Raider and Predator could be taken by more than just Marines. Maximum bang for GW’s tooling investment when plastic was a serious financial unknown.
The same thinking brought us Adeptus Titanicus, both versions. And it applies to Heresy. Start with the chassis as a proper kit, designed and tooled for easy upgrade sprues. That initial investment then does the heavy lifting, as any variant really just needs to pay for its unique sprue(s) rather than being a whole new kit unto itself.
You're exactly right, the first Rhino had the same left and right sides AND the same top and bottom. So half a rhino on each sprue.
lord_blackfang wrote: So the assumption is the Predator and Kratos (and Sicarian?) share the sponson sprue?
Yeah, it looks like a universal sprue (It's labeled as Sprue "S" and just has sponson on the sprue and no specific kit is referenced). The mounting points look similar to the resin ones that appeared on all Predators, Sicarans, Javelins (plastic Javelins maybe?) and certain superheavies and they were universal fittings. The new plastic sicaran has the same sponson weapon options:
blood reaper wrote: It would be very funny imo if like, for whatever reason, GW simply didn't do the Predator but did literally every other variant instead.
I’m fairly sure we’ve seen a pic of a Volkite turret Predator which is new. I’d be very incredibly surprised if that’s not part of a plastic kit.
ekwatts wrote: Chain cannon is a good example of how little of the original context we have, and how negative nancies effectively have to just make stuff up in their heads to fit a pre-existing "GW are poppy heads" prejudice.
It's been stated pretty clearly before now how the models and kits are designed mostly independently of the rules. So what you have is a designer(/s) putting together a sprue of components with at least a vague brief. For Havocs? They're an established unit that has a few solid expectations; it should at least match the existing devastation sprue, it should include a wide variety of existing known quantities, like heavy bolters,, lascannons, etc.
So that's what they do. Then they notice that, having covered most of the bases, if they shift some components around here and there, they can fit one more heavy weapon in, and decide to go for a massive chain cannon.
The codex writers get their hands on the nee models and immediately set about incorporating this unique new weapon into the squad. The rules end up being pretty nifty because, well, you only get one of them, right?
WRONG
WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IS SOME PENNY PINCHER AT HEAD OFFICE IS LIKE "HEH HEH HEH HEH HEHHHH, I WANT YOU TO PUT A COOL OVERPOWERED WEAPON ON THE SPRUE SO THE PLEBS HAVE TO BUY FOUR BOXES!!!!"
AND THE GHOST OF BRYAN ANSELL CRIES A GHOSTLY TEAR INTO AN OCEAN OF HAUNTED SCREAMS ETC
It could be either, it could even be a mixture of both. But surely it isn't worth getting worked up over?
That´s why I have left the Havocs box on the shelf and left the store in disgust.
How annyoing, I wish GW would just stick to the 3rd edition method of putting handles on weapons, and hands on arms (if that makes sense). Makes swapping among kits easier and allows us to put weapons on someone's back or on a base or whatever. I don't see the advantage of molding on hands to guns.
So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?
blood reaper wrote: It would be very funny imo if like, for whatever reason, GW simply didn't do the Predator but did literally every other variant instead.
I’m fairly sure we’ve seen a pic of a Volkite turret Predator which is new. I’d be very incredibly surprised if that’s not part of a plastic kit.
Just had a scan and these are some new Predator turret weapons in the new book:
Strg Alt wrote: So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?
The MkIV kit comes with Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, and Flamers. The MkIII kit drops the Missiles and keeps everything else.
The best part of all of this is how precious people are being about doing the absolute bare minimum work to make the new weapons fit the older models. You should try doing HH when your options are insanely expensive FW kits or scrounging together what parts you can from 40k units.
There's also this magical thing called "trading with friends".
Of course, that might be a concept many people who spend all their time complaining on this website are unfamiliar with.
There is no "hot" weapon for HH and each Legion has tactical preferences or even special rules that benefit some weapons over others ( i.e. Death Guard Chem Flamers or Salamanders buffs) which means that while you can take all the weapons, there aren't ones that will guarantee you wins or kills at all times.
Unless everyone is playing the exact same list in your area then swapping weapon spares won't be a problem.
And before people jump down my throat calling me a shill, yes the weapon packs could have been designed a little better but this is not the end of the world, get over yourselves.
Billicus wrote: What did people do for 10 plasma guns before? Did forgeworld do them? I know they did some weapon upgrades.
Pre-Calth the options were FW or using 40k parts. Post-Calth it was swapping spares or using FW/40k parts.
I bought loads of Kromlech lascannons for my death guard which were okay. Running 10 lascannons is a good way to lose friends, by the way
Meh, I've been running two units of 5 Lascannon Iron Havocs for about 2 years now and they get one good turn before losing good targets or getting nuked in retaliation.
1. Whilst not ideal, FW still carry resin weapon packs for MkII-MkV. Packs of 10 for £15.50. Resin Heavy Weapons are also available, but run considerably more expensive as they’re 5 packs.
2. No plastic equivalent right now does not mean no plastic equivalent ever. You want to promote sales of your latest basic infantry kit? This is how you do it. Give them the Shiny Accompanying Toys - with exactly two thirds of fifty percent of absolutely bugger all preventing you boosting sales of the older, but newly repackaged kits by releasing their Special and Heavy Weapons at a later date.
Billicus wrote: What did people do for 10 plasma guns before? Did forgeworld do them? I know they did some weapon upgrades.
Pre-Calth the options were FW or using 40k parts. Post-Calth it was swapping spares or using FW/40k parts.
I bought loads of Kromlech lascannons for my death guard which were okay. Running 10 lascannons is a good way to lose friends, by the way
Meh, I've been running two units of 5 Lascannon Iron Havocs for about 2 years now and they get one good turn before losing good targets or getting nuked in retaliation.
yeah so this is kind of my point, I'm not sure what has been lost for mk3/4 fans just because these mk6 weapon upgrades aren't compatible. Seemingly not much/anything.
They're only not compatible if you care about utter perfection at all points, which IMO is absurd.
We've seen one guy do one model with one type of conversion and it's time to get the pitchforks and torches again. I'm not surprised of course but it's such a joke to see people get this raging about it.
tneva82 wrote: Yea i'm sure that guy was either totally incompetent or had worst luck possible getting the 1 combo that didn't fit.
Or the kit is working as intended and no mixing.
*sigh*
I didn't say they were incompetent or that they had bad luck, I said they've shown one way of doing it. Do you just give up trying at the first chance or do you keep going?
But from what I've seen unless everything is perfect and doesn't work on the first try, we should be burning down GW, which again is a laughably pathetic stance to take.
Nice to see the usual suspects rallying to GW's defence the moment a tiny bit of criticism is levelled their way. They should double, no triple your salary of £0.00 for such devoted service!
Results from the quiz are in. Be interesting to see how many of the results are from people picking a legion vs it just being what result they got from the quiz. A lot of people starting DA so them being at the top isn't a surprise but on the other hand I've seen loads of SOH newcomers and they're pretty low down.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: The fact they they deliberately designed these weapons to only fit MK6, or require extensive cutting is INDEFENSIBLE. If you think this is not the intent you're lying to yourself. Every marine kit since 2013 has followed the same weapon - arm layout and it suddenly changes here? Alongside kits that follow this tried and true method. Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
This is a gak tier marketing tactic. Yup you can cut it, but having to cut and greenstuff a gap that shouldn't even be there in the first place is so fething stupid. They obviously just want you to buy mk6 and not use that nice juicy bits box of special weapons you have stocked up. And people with limited hobby capabilities will not even bother. This also means any future infantry will have the same design.
You can paste mkiii arms onto mkiv / primaris bodies? Just eyeing the various kits, I'd bet money you can't.
I knew in the back of my head that someone would read my statement of "every marine kit since 2013" and bring up fething primaris marines. I just didn't think it would happen immediately lmao. Lets clear this up, FIRST-BORN MARINE KITS.
You weren't very clear and I wasn't trying to take your point out of context. Regardless, the problem with your desire for backwards compatibility going all the way back to the first of the firstborn is that it restricts design space, and not by a little bit, it's a lot, as has been explained by a few people in the last couple of pages. I can just about see why you'd prefer one design philosophy over another, personally I prefer the one they've chosen since imo the upside is huge. Doesn't mean I'm some sort of fawning lickspittle mouthpiece for GW (wasn't you who made this magnificently hyperbolic accusation).
Strg Alt wrote: So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?
The MkIV kit comes with Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, and Flamers. The MkIII kit drops the Missiles and keeps everything else.
The best part of all of this is how precious people are being about doing the absolute bare minimum work to make the new weapons fit the older models. You should try doing HH when your options are insanely expensive FW kits or scrounging together what parts you can from 40k units.
It's mind boggling how people I thought were veteran gamers, modellers, painters, etc, are getting so upset about a few millimetres of a gap at a wrist, isn't it? It's not just me, surely?
And I'm assuming that some of these people have bought and made Forgeworld kits before.
You know, it's one thing to be having to fill in several millimetres worth of gaps in eye-wateringly expensive resin kits in which all the pieces are actually intended to work together, and perhaps another thing entirely to be engaging in ALL CAPS ACCUSATIONS OF PROFITEERING when trying to fit two kits made nearly a decade apart from another that don't even amount to quite the same amount of cutting or greenstuffing work as the afore-mentioned Forgeworld models.
IS IT ME? Am I the only person looking at that picture going "That... looks like it can be absolutely fine...?"
Strg Alt wrote: So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?
The MkIV kit comes with Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, and Flamers. The MkIII kit drops the Missiles and keeps everything else.
The best part of all of this is how precious people are being about doing the absolute bare minimum work to make the new weapons fit the older models. You should try doing HH when your options are insanely expensive FW kits or scrounging together what parts you can from 40k units.
It's mind boggling how people I thought were veteran gamers, modellers, painters, etc, are getting so upset about a few millimetres of a gap at a wrist, isn't it? It's not just me, surely?
And I'm assuming that some of these people have bought and made Forgeworld kits before.
You know, it's one thing to be having to fill in several millimetres worth of gaps in eye-wateringly expensive resin kits in which all the pieces are actually intended to work together, and perhaps another thing entirely to be engaging in ALL CAPS ACCUSATIONS OF PROFITEERING when trying to fit two kits made nearly a decade apart from another that don't even amount to quite the same amount of cutting or greenstuffing work as the afore-mentioned Forgeworld models.
IS IT ME? Am I the only person looking at that picture going "That... looks like it can be absolutely fine...?"
It's not just you. Dakka gonna Dakka. You even have one guy sexualizing things (I won't repeat Lord Blackfang because he should be ashamed of himself). It's insanity.
Results from the quiz are in. Be interesting to see how many of the results are from people picking a legion vs it just being what result they got from the quiz. A lot of people starting DA so them being at the top isn't a surprise but on the other hand I've seen loads of SOH newcomers and they're pretty low down.
Keep in mind, that doesn't say 'a lot of people starting DA' or ('almost no-one playing Word Bearers'). Just that a lot of results ended up as DA on the quiz. Given how much I played with it to see how it was producing results, those numbers likely mean nothing at all when it comes to representation on tables, and a lot to do with how the nesting questions fork (why 'plasma or volkite?' is a decision point for which legion is frankly baffling) and reinforce (or don't reinforce) stereotypes. Its actually more interesting to work out why GW thinks specific legions are more likely to use lots of tanks, or how you can wrap back around to loyalist or traitor after picking the 'wrong' answer to the first question (and why that might over-populate Dark Angel results in the first place).
Results from the quiz are in. Be interesting to see how many of the results are from people picking a legion vs it just being what result they got from the quiz. A lot of people starting DA so them being at the top isn't a surprise but on the other hand I've seen loads of SOH newcomers and they're pretty low down.
Keep in mind, that doesn't say 'a lot of people starting DA' or ('almost no-one playing Word Bearers'). Just that a lot of results ended up as DA on the quiz. Given how much I played with it to see how it was producing results, those numbers likely mean nothing at all when it comes to representation on tables, and a lot to do with how the nesting questions fork (why 'plasma or volkite?' is a decision point for which legion is frankly baffling) and reinforce (or don't reinforce) stereotypes. Its actually more interesting to work out why GW thinks specific legions are more likely to use lots of tanks, or how you can wrap back around to loyalist or traitor after picking the 'wrong' answer to the first question (and why that might over-populate Dark Angel results in the first place).
I think it would be a lot of fun to see how that quiz maps out. Probably a lot of work to reverse engineer it though.
Strg Alt wrote: So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?
The MkIV kit comes with Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, and Flamers. The MkIII kit drops the Missiles and keeps everything else.
The best part of all of this is how precious people are being about doing the absolute bare minimum work to make the new weapons fit the older models. You should try doing HH when your options are insanely expensive FW kits or scrounging together what parts you can from 40k units.
Thanks for the info. I won´t touch expensive FW stuff. There is a plethora of 40K marine arms in my bitz box however I doubt they will look good on the older Mark armours.
JWBS wrote: Nice to see IH and WS so low in the rankings, I'm gonna do both of those. SoH too.
Yeah I tried specifically to get IH the first time I took the quiz, and didn't get it, oddly enough. I had to backtrack on several questions and there was one specific question I had to answer to get IH--can't remember what it was, but it wasn't something I associated as "iconic" to Iron Hands.
Okay I just did it again -- had to select deploy infantry (instead of armor) and mass ranks of troops (instead of analyze routes and optimize defenses). If you select armored support, you can't get Iron Hands, which doesn't strictly make sense.
There's some questions that I don't believe affect the outcome: whether you prefer sicaran tank or contemptor dreadnought, for example.
Strg Alt wrote: Thanks for the info. I won´t touch expensive FW stuff. There is a plethora of 40K marine arms in my bitz box however I doubt they will look good on the older Mark armours.
I can guarantee nobody in real life cares what pattern of Power Armour arms your models have. It's also a hallmark of the Heresy for Marines to use what they had to hand and having mixed armour was commonplace. Hell, I'm currently painting a unit of Iron Hands that has MkIII, MkIV, MkV, CSM patter MkVI, other CSM armour from both the old and new kits, MkVI and some parts from the IH Primaris upgrade packs.
Arbitrator wrote: Nice to see the usual suspects rallying to GW's defence the moment a tiny bit of criticism is levelled their way. They should double, no triple your salary of £0.00 for such devoted service!
Results from the quiz are in. Be interesting to see how many of the results are from people picking a legion vs it just being what result they got from the quiz. A lot of people starting DA so them being at the top isn't a surprise but on the other hand I've seen loads of SOH newcomers and they're pretty low down.
I did the quiz multiple times to see what kind of result I would get with each decision. So do all my takes on the quiz made it into the analysis or just the first one?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boringstuff wrote: That quiz was hopeless, I tried to get Iron Warriors and got Salamanders...
JWBS wrote: Nice to see IH and WS so low in the rankings, I'm gonna do both of those. SoH too.
Yeah I tried specifically to get IH the first time I took the quiz, and didn't get it, oddly enough. I had to backtrack on several questions and there was one specific question I had to answer to get IH--can't remember what it was, but it wasn't something I associated as "iconic" to Iron Hands.
Okay I just did it again -- had to select deploy infantry (instead of armor) and mass ranks of troops (instead of analyze routes and optimize defenses). If you select armored support, you can't get Iron Hands, which doesn't strictly make sense.
There's some questions that I don't believe affect the outcome: whether you prefer sicaran tank or contemptor dreadnought, for example.
Yeah, that´s why I didn´t get IH in the first place. Maybe GW pictures for IH blobs of cyborg marines walking slowly down the field muttering "Resistance is futile" all the time.
Strg Alt wrote: So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?
The MkIV kit comes with Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, and Flamers. The MkIII kit drops the Missiles and keeps everything else.
The best part of all of this is how precious people are being about doing the absolute bare minimum work to make the new weapons fit the older models. You should try doing HH when your options are insanely expensive FW kits or scrounging together what parts you can from 40k units.
It's mind boggling how people I thought were veteran gamers, modellers, painters, etc, are getting so upset about a few millimetres of a gap at a wrist, isn't it? It's not just me, surely?
And I'm assuming that some of these people have bought and made Forgeworld kits before.
You know, it's one thing to be having to fill in several millimetres worth of gaps in eye-wateringly expensive resin kits in which all the pieces are actually intended to work together, and perhaps another thing entirely to be engaging in ALL CAPS ACCUSATIONS OF PROFITEERING when trying to fit two kits made nearly a decade apart from another that don't even amount to quite the same amount of cutting or greenstuffing work as the afore-mentioned Forgeworld models.
IS IT ME? Am I the only person looking at that picture going "That... looks like it can be absolutely fine...?"
It´s mind boggling how people defend GW for releasing sloppy products and demanding simultaneously "premium" prices. Should the gap problem be a real scenario then I won´ t stop blaming GW for bad quality control. I am not looking forward to modify inconsistencies with Greenstuff as I expect much better from a market leader.
It´s mind boggling how people defend GW for releasing sloppy products and demanding simultaneously "premium" prices. Should the gap problem be a real scenario then I won´ t stop blaming GW for bad quality control. I am not looking forward to modify inconsistencies with Greenstuff as I expect much better from a market leader.
I assume no one here designs miniatures professionally, but most seem to have a basic handle on why this particular limitation has come about. You clearly don't have this basic understanding, even when it has been explained pretty succinctly, hence this statement, along with others by other people ("Why not full backwards compatibility AND ALSO new dynamic poses and appropriate scaling!??!?").
the issue with the guns having gaps etc on MK III and MK IV isn't a quality control problem, it's just that GW has clearly decided to move in a slightly differant direction with mini design. and the weapons packs look like they'd fit with some cutting and greenstuffing. it'd be nice if they where 100% compatable but I for one wasn't expecting them to be a 100% match.
I mean if a 100% match is desirable forge world hasn't removed their special weapons kits.
I assume no one here designs miniatures professionally, but most seem to have a basic handle on why this particular limitation has come about. You clearly don't have this basic understanding, even when it has been explained pretty succinctly, hence this statement, along with others by other people ("Why not full backwards compatibility AND ALSO new dynamic poses and appropriate scaling!??!?").
Dynamic posing on gaming pieces is always inferior to a good static pose that maximises the stability and durability of the object.
Exactly. The weapons kits were not specifically designed to fit to earlier kits, kits that we're all aware were produced under a different design philosophy to the current MKVI models found in the newly relaunched Heresy set.
HOWEVER.
They can and will work with a little effort. As this is a hobby that kind of invites just that kind of effort, the thing that has kind of shocked me is the sheer level of bile that has issued forth over just such a suggestion.
I am not propping GW up here for producing a weapons kit that is inconsistently compatible with kits that predate it by a decade. I'm flabbergasted by the expectation, the privilege, on show from those who are, in some cases, mad that they may need to do a little cutting with their existing kits and/or bemoaning an issue that is theoretically not going to be too widespread to begin with.
Separately, my more minor concern is this:
I definitely believe that the very people who might have this concern in the first place, who might be overwhelmingly the concerned party in question, the ones that absolutely want to mix and match and kitbash, therefore, the ones that seem to be the most overly concerned by the minor incompatibility, would also be the ones most capable of correcting it on their own terms.
Calm down. Seriously. We love little plastic figures.
The plastic MKIII and MKIV kits were originally released in 2015 / 2016 as part of standalone boardgames. They were later sold separately as an alternative to resin FW marines, but with optional resin weapon upgrade components. I'm still not clear on if all of these components are still on sale or not, but it seems they were at one point.
GW have just started selling a brand new plastic MKVI kit at a slightly larger scale, along with their own plastic upgrade components.
Now there's a bunch of folks getting upset and throwing around insults because the new upgrade components advertised as "designed to be assembled with the MKVI Tactical Squad set" aren't compatible with smaller scale models from ~7 years ago, despite never being advertised as compatible. And despite those older models already having their own weapon components available.
Strg Alt wrote: So this means all the beakies pull specialist/heavy duty and the old Marks are destined to only carry bolters?
The MkIV kit comes with Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, and Flamers. The MkIII kit drops the Missiles and keeps everything else.
I'm not really up for an entirely new game right now, but I went for 2 sets of Mk IV kits. That gives me 4 of each of the heavy and special weapons, plus plasma pistols, bolter pistols, chainswords and power swords. Oh, and power fists and lightning claws.
I figure that if I do decide to go for HH games, it's 1 unit of 20 tacticals plus choices from minimum-sized support squads or heavy support squads, assault squads to veteran squads. And I barely have to hit the bits box.
If I build them for 40k, that's a bunch of pretty standard tactical squad choices, and they fit with the 40k heavy weapons arms.
I would like to try the new beakies at some point, but I can wait.
I assume no one here designs miniatures professionally, but most seem to have a basic handle on why this particular limitation has come about. You clearly don't have this basic understanding, even when it has been explained pretty succinctly, hence this statement, along with others by other people ("Why not full backwards compatibility AND ALSO new dynamic poses and appropriate scaling!??!?").
Dynamic posing on gaming pieces is always inferior to a good static pose that maximises the stability and durability of the object.
This new kit is a mix of both. That new 5 man tactical sprue - three of the (much maligned) legs planted in a wide stance, as was the case for all non-assault marines for a long long time (fewer complaints about that it seems, it's almost like a lot of people here tailor their complaints to suit their arguments) and a couple of guys advancing. The aesthetic improvements are subtle but significant, imo. The scale improvements though straight up can't be backwards compatible with the older scale, that would require magical shrinking and expanding bits that scale up or down with whatever you want them to fit, or another range of SKUs that fit the size of the previous design standard and not the new one. This in turn would doubtless enrage many here on Dakka.
I assume no one here designs miniatures professionally, but most seem to have a basic handle on why this particular limitation has come about. You clearly don't have this basic understanding, even when it has been explained pretty succinctly, hence this statement, along with others by other people ("Why not full backwards compatibility AND ALSO new dynamic poses and appropriate scaling!??!?").
Dynamic posing on gaming pieces is always inferior to a good static pose that maximises the stability and durability of the object.
This new kit is a mix of both. That new 5 man tactical sprue - three of the (much maligned) legs planted in a wide stance, as was the case for all non-assault marines for a long long time (fewer complaints about that it seems, it's almost like a lot of people here tailor their complaints to suit their arguments) and a couple of guys advancing. The aesthetic improvements are subtle but significant, imo. The scale improvements though straight up can't be backwards compatible with the older scale, that would require magical shrinking and expanding bits that scale up or down with whatever you want them to fit, or another range of SKUs that fit the size of the previous design standard and not the new one. This in turn would doubtless enrage many here on Dakka.
Or just keeping the hand on the arm instead of the gun, you know, in the real world where we don't invent magical excuses for why a product must be the way it is.
Cos it looks like crap is why, is this hard to understand or something? And how does this even solve the gap problem when that's a function of the size of arms and torso? Only solves the hand problem, and has a major downside. Magic bits would be better.
It's super cool and normal of you to paint this as me defending corporation™ rather than genuinely preferring the new design philosophy and furthermore strongly implying that I'm mentally ill.
JWBS wrote: This is like trying to have a discussion with a shoe.
Don't flatter the poor man, he's clearly closer to a sandal, at best. Maybe a clog, on a good day. He dreams of the day he could ascend to the rarified air of being comparable to a shoe.
So what you do, is you take the time you spent reading and replying to this thread, and use that time to convert the new guns on to the old Marines.
I'm far from a GW supporter but even I think this discussion is getting a bit silly.
If we're going to fight over something, I'd rather GW return to the days when neither hand was attached to the gun, it was so much easier to paint Marines when you could just leave the gun off until after they were painted. Though I do prefer the look of the new ones, not having the oversized U shape makes the hand look more natural.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm far from a GW supporter but even I think this discussion is getting a bit silly.
Maybe, but I have said it already, for a premium priced model kit, I expect a premium product, and not something I need to cut them a litte to make it fit
It would be not a problem if the weapons would come cheap, but with the premium they should be backwards compatible to the rest of the HH models and GW would have been able to do it
there is no excuse that the Chinese messed it up or that they did not see it until the stuff was already delivered, with in house production and QM this intended, and for me this is not something I can ignore with that price point the weapons are sold
being better of with 3rd party resin bits, as they cost the same as the plastic ones but will fit without cutting
I'm with JWBS. I'm not a huge fan of the new plastic weapons because I much prefer the resin ones with the flexible weapons feeds, etc. but I already have a small stash of those for use on my mk3/4 marines anyway. In the meantime I'm happy to use these new plastic weapons on my beakies. I also expect these weapons will be compatible with probably forthcoming mk2/5 kits, as well as the like mk3/4 resculpt a few years down the line.
Look at the weapon problem the other way around:
You can't use any leftover weapons you may have already collected on the new MkVI marines. Sure, with some work you can make the new weapons fit on old marines, but you can't make the old weapons fit on the new marines at all. Unless you sculpt the missing hand.
Just like when GW decided to start adding the right hand to the gun, this changes how the models are built and impacts any collection of bits we may already have. This is, apparently, how it will be going forward. Doesn't mean I have to like the change.
ekwatts wrote: Exactly. The weapons kits were not specifically designed to fit to earlier kits, kits that we're all aware were produced under a different design philosophy to the current MKVI models found in the newly relaunched Heresy set.
HOWEVER.
They can and will work with a little effort. As this is a hobby that kind of invites just that kind of effort, the thing that has kind of shocked me is the sheer level of bile that has issued forth over just such a suggestion.
I am not propping GW up here for producing a weapons kit that is inconsistently compatible with kits that predate it by a decade. I'm flabbergasted by the expectation, the privilege, on show from those who are, in some cases, mad that they may need to do a little cutting with their existing kits and/or bemoaning an issue that is theoretically not going to be too widespread to begin with.
Separately, my more minor concern is this:
I definitely believe that the very people who might have this concern in the first place, who might be overwhelmingly the concerned party in question, the ones that absolutely want to mix and match and kitbash, therefore, the ones that seem to be the most overly concerned by the minor incompatibility, would also be the ones most capable of correcting it on their own terms.
Calm down. Seriously. We love little plastic figures.
And I am flabbergasted by the sheer amount of white knights who come out of their woodwork. So it will be done like I said earlier:
Beakies for special/heavy weapons and the other Marks for all weapons which can be bolted on without a fuss. When Age of Darkness arrives I intend to paint it up in a jiffy and not waste my time with unnecessary greenstuff work. If I want to do conversions on specific models I shall do so but not on rank & file troops.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Look at the weapon problem the other way around:
You can't use any leftover weapons you may have already collected on the new MkVI marines. Sure, with some work you can make the new weapons fit on old marines, but you can't make the old weapons fit on the new marines at all. Unless you sculpt the missing hand.
Just like when GW decided to start adding the right hand to the gun, this changes how the models are built and impacts any collection of bits we may already have. This is, apparently, how it will be going forward. Doesn't mean I have to like the change.
ekwatts wrote: Exactly. The weapons kits were not specifically designed to fit to earlier kits, kits that we're all aware were produced under a different design philosophy to the current MKVI models found in the newly relaunched Heresy set.
HOWEVER.
They can and will work with a little effort. As this is a hobby that kind of invites just that kind of effort, the thing that has kind of shocked me is the sheer level of bile that has issued forth over just such a suggestion.
I am not propping GW up here for producing a weapons kit that is inconsistently compatible with kits that predate it by a decade. I'm flabbergasted by the expectation, the privilege, on show from those who are, in some cases, mad that they may need to do a little cutting with their existing kits and/or bemoaning an issue that is theoretically not going to be too widespread to begin with.
Separately, my more minor concern is this:
I definitely believe that the very people who might have this concern in the first place, who might be overwhelmingly the concerned party in question, the ones that absolutely want to mix and match and kitbash, therefore, the ones that seem to be the most overly concerned by the minor incompatibility, would also be the ones most capable of correcting it on their own terms.
Calm down. Seriously. We love little plastic figures.
And I am flabbergasted by the sheer amount of white knights who come out of their woodwork. So it will be done like I said earlier:
Beakies for special/heavy weapons and the other Marks for all weapons which can be bolted on without a fuss. When Age of Darkness arrives I intend to paint it up in a jiffy and not waste my time with unnecessary greenstuff work. If I want to do conversions on specific models I shall do so but not on rank & file troops.
I mean if thats the case yeah just use beakies.
I admit it's a shame as I honestly prefer to look of MK 3 armor
Strg Alt wrote: Thanks for the info. I won´t touch expensive FW stuff. There is a plethora of 40K marine arms in my bitz box however I doubt they will look good on the older Mark armours.
I can guarantee nobody in real life cares what pattern of Power Armour arms your models have. It's also a hallmark of the Heresy for Marines to use what they had to hand and having mixed armour was commonplace. Hell, I'm currently painting a unit of Iron Hands that has MkIII, MkIV, MkV, CSM patter MkVI, other CSM armour from both the old and new kits, MkVI and some parts from the IH Primaris upgrade packs.
To an extent - I've only seen people who are bringing Primaris Power Armor get called out. I've seen a number of people also tell each other if you're using marines that have the Aquilla, to just play Emperor's Children.
As far as the alternate paint schemes, they have been pretty kind by saying "Just don't bring your Howling Griffins into the HH and call them Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. If you're Legion is black, make sure they have some black as a main color. If they are blue, make sure blue shows up somewhere. Also, be consistent and make them uniform throughout your force."
Otherwise, I think everyone has been pretty accepting. There have been a few cases of people just being jerks but in my opinion, I think they were fishing for someone to get upset. I've only seen a Rainbow Warrior Legion player who was upset that he couldn't create his own legion with the new rules and the general response to them was "Go play 40K."
every sculpt that doesn't allow a straight wrist cut.
