dicerage wrote:
Bringing Celestine and some seraphim brings my Stygies force a huge extra punch. Are those days over with the anti soup rules, or can I still bring both detachments to matched play games?

Everything in a detachment with Celestine needs to be AdMin or Sisters.

Dragoons are better now anyway though. Infiltrate is still a turn one alpha strike, and you need mostly worry about turn two strikes.

Nothing is stopping you guys from taking an Aux. Supp. detachment.

Except for paying 1 CP. But c'mon, this one is a no-brainer. Pay 1 CP and 250 points for a regenerating Imperium Demon Prince that can respawn upon death almost anywhere on the map.

This is true. But if you're going to do that, you might as well bring 4-6x Dragoons instead. It will be our turn to have the scary alpha strike.

Yeah boy, charge immunity!

First try without Scouts:



I'll probably do a second try with an AdMech Battalion. But it's tough.

Suzuteo wrote:
First try without Scouts:

Spoiler:

MT Battalion Detachment - 542

HQ - 60
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila

Troop - 123
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword

Elite - 35
1x Master of Ordnance - Laspistol, Artillery Strike

Heavy Support - 324
3x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1050

HQ - 240
1x Belisarius Cawl

Heavy Support - 810
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-spectrum Data-Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-spectrum Data-Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 15x Heavy Phosphor Blasters

Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 408

Fast Attack - 408
6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 2000 points
8 Command Points

I'll probably do a second try with an AdMech Battalion. But it's tough.

That list looks like a lot of fun.

I prefer to run mono-FW, though.

I want to write up a 3-battalion stygies list with an aux celestine. I feel like it would be really tough to fight. I'll post it here later tonight.

Admech gunlines are now flatly better than they were. And vanguard now have some kind of use since they can advance and fire. But what still sucks is the 128 point TPD that does nothing and the 47 point Enginseer who manages to do less. Guardsmen and skitarii are comparable, but those HQs are just terrible compared to 30 point commanders. Guardsmen orders are really effective, whereas skitarii barely benefit from their HQs.

On the celestine topic, I am most likely just going to finish painting my 5 sisters of silence and run them as bolter girls. 51 points for 8 bolter barrels that can shoot twice in a turn isn't bad. I would pay that and get a CP.

EDIT: yes, STYGIES dragoon bombs are now relatively better. Most codex have lost their first turn melee bombs. But if you have that STYGIES stack and you get first turn, yeah, that is a first turn charging. Every time.

@Wulfey
You think Scouts are still worth it if we have to bring a Captain?

Way I see it, because they come down on turn two, it's plenty of time for the enemy to just clear them. Having a mobile screen with Guardsmen and Dragoons might be more efficient because you can fill in the gaps before the end of the opponent's turn two movement.

Yeah scouts are much less attractive now. They were best buddies with celestine since she brought so much power for her points. But captain smash and mephiston are relatively weaker than they were. The thing is tho, I never put celestine out their on turn 1. I always let the artillery do its thing and keep her back until the enemy puts their good stuff out there. No reason to trade a celestine life for nothing. Similarly, captain smash isn't coming down on the first turn anymore. And we have more CP to support captain smash. I was originally opposed to him because he needs 4CP to do his job, whereas celestine just needs you to save 1CP until round 5. Space marine HQs are mostly dogshitte, like admech HQs, so the only real options are slamguinius and mephy. I have my kitbashed slamguinius and mephiston sitting on my desk right now. If you are thinking scouts, then you better be bringing those two.

Otherwise, guardsmen are better. Guardsmen can advance twice a turn with move move move, which is a decisive advantage on a troops unit. Guardsmen tend to die faster than a scout squad, but generally shoot better due to volume of fire.

I could actually see putting some MARS skitarii on the table just for the CP right now. ~170 points to get another 4CP over a spearhead is kind of worth it. Be damned if i know what the enginseer will be doing with his time. I just hate putting HQ models on the table that don't do anything. Cawl, Celestine, Commanders, all these HQs do something. Enginseers stand there with their dick in their hands next to blown up baslisks.

EDIT: something else to consider, the FAQ on pistols makes 10 strong MARS infiltrators bombs a very attractive way to get rid of some pesky assault units in your lines. Pistols can now shoot at enemies in combat with other units, so long as the enemies are the closest model. So that means that whatever is tying up my robots can be shot by infiltrators.

EDIT2: alright, this is basically my old list I ran 3 months ago, but it won't be as crippled against deep strikers as it was.

CADIA - 2x commanders, 3x guard squads, 3x basilik
AUX - Celestine
MARS - Cawl, Enginseer, 2x5 rangers, 1x5 vanguard, 1x5 dakkabot, 2x neutrons

This doesn't have the mortars anymore, and has skitari in their place. Skitarri are not really as useful as mortar teams, but they are giving me more CP.

I see. Yeah, I think Guardsmen are clearly the best screen now. Mobility, high body count, etc. I would back mine with Dragoons. I don't think Celestine is as good without the Soup Battalion because she filled an HQ spot that otherwise would have to be a Psyker or redundant Company Commander. Also, keeping the Goondozer as the last unit always had a chilling effect on aggressive deploys, and I can only imagine it being more scary now.

Damn. I have all my Guardsmen and Skitarii looking the same. Maybe I should just take my Secutarii and have them counts-as Vanguard or Rangers...

Right now I am thinking:

240 Archmagos
47 Enginseer
35 5 rangers
35 5 rangers
35 5 rangers
440 4 robots
140 neutron
140 neutron

46 primaris psyker
30 commander, warlord, aquila, shotgun
49 elysian commander, power fist
51 elysian SWS 3 plasma
51 elysian SWS 3 plasma
51 elysian SWS 3 plasma
10 guardsmen, bolter, mortar
10 guardsmen, bolter, mortar
10 guardsmen, bolter, mortar
324 3 basilisks
33 3 mortars
33 3 mortars

80 Callidus Assassin

I've got all models completed except the mortars, and half the skitarii rangers still need arms.

Mortar design almost finished:

Okay.


Revised list:


And LSU abuse:

That's a very cool mortar ph34r!

 ph34r wrote:

Mortar design almost finished:

Spoiler:

WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE LEGS? BABY PHEAR CRAWLERS?! =O

PiñaColada wrote:That's a very cool mortar ph34r!

Thanks PiñaColada! You are a very refreshing drink.

Suzuteo wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Mortar design almost finished:

Spoiler:

WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE LEGS? BABY PHEAR CRAWLERS?! =O

I've designed them now in 3d and 3d printed them from scratch myself. Once I get the last little details improved I'll print myself my 9 of them, and if others want some Baby Ph34r Crawlers I can 3d print any number of them.

 ph34r wrote:

I've designed them now in 3d and 3d printed them from scratch myself. Once I get the last little details improved I'll print myself my 9 of them, and if others want some Baby Ph34r Crawlers I can 3d print any number of them.

Yes, please! I will probably want 9 myself. I have some 3D printed Mortars, but nothing nearly as cool.

Plus, I need to make new dudes with the extra FAQ-ed Lasgun modelled.

5 CP for a Battalion? hell yeah, finally my Custodes AdMech list has some CP to play with. Thinking about 2 different concepts. Gunline with Mars or a Stygies list which focusses on being quick and not get shot. Both are not final and the Mars list is incomplete but I think I got something that will work here. CC welcome. And of course there is a culexus in both lists. I never leave the house without a culexus.

Custodes - Mars (135 spare points)



thinking about having a mixed Forgeworld detachment. Kicking out one of the shield captains for a unit of 4 Stygies Dragoons sounds delicious^^
And

Custodes - Stygies

Quick question about the dragoons: What should they attack? geq, meq or teq?

 _Ness wrote:
Quick question about the dragoons: What should they attack? geq, meq or teq?

Dragoons can kill anything. They have monstrous Strength, low AP, high volume of attacks. My preferred target are actually vehicles, since Dakkabots murder MEQs.

Wulfey wrote:
Admech gunlines are now flatly better than they were. And vanguard now have some kind of use since they can advance and fire. But what still sucks is the 128 point TPD that does nothing and the 47 point Enginseer who manages to do less. Guardsmen and skitarii are comparable, but those HQs are just terrible compared to 30 point commanders. Guardsmen orders are really effective, whereas skitarii barely benefit from their HQs.

On the celestine topic, I am most likely just going to finish painting my 5 sisters of silence and run them as bolter girls. 51 points for 8 bolter barrels that can shoot twice in a turn isn't bad. I would pay that and get a CP.

EDIT: yes, STYGIES dragoon bombs are now relatively better. Most codex have lost their first turn melee bombs. But if you have that STYGIES stack and you get first turn, yeah, that is a first turn charging. Every time.

im hoping for that skitarii HQ option

some kind of lieutenant, with a 6 inch reroll wounds of 1, or a leadership buff, or smth

can be kitted out w all the skitarii gak in any combo, and a 5 up invu

~65 pts speaking out of my ass

Suzuteo wrote:
Okay.


Revised list:

Spoiler:

MT Battalion Detachment - 507

HQ - 60
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila

Troop - 123
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword

Heavy Support - 324
3x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1217

HQ - 287
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 120
5x Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine

Heavy Support - 810
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-spectrum Data-Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-spectrum Data-Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 15x Heavy Phosphor Blasters

Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 272

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 1996 points
12 Command Points

And LSU abuse:

Spoiler:

MT Battalion Detachment - 522

HQ - 60
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila

Troop - 138
10x Infantry - 8x Lasgun, 1x Mortar, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 8x Lasgun, 1x Mortar, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 8x Lasgun, 1x Mortar, Boltgun, Chainsword

Heavy Support - 324
3x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1067

HQ - 287
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 120
5x Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine

Heavy Support - 660
6x Kastelan Robots - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blasters

Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 408

Fast Attack - 408
6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 1997 points
12 Command Points

Excuse my ignorance. What does LSU stand for?

Oh. Just made it up.

MSU = Multiple Small Units
LSU = Large Sized Unit

I guess One Large Unit is better, but OLU seemed too different.

I think people call big expensive units "Death Stars"

Suzuteo wrote:
Oh. Just made it up.

MSU = Multiple Small Units
LSU = Large Sized Unit

I guess One Large Unit is better, but OLU seemed too different.

Ah ok. Also Japanese flag indicating you got tired of California or you’ve just made your work pattern official?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh mine is showing as USA which is weird

ph34r wrote:I think people call big expensive units "Death Stars"

Well, the Cawlstar is a Deathstar. But the Goondozer has no character. But yeah, 6x Dragoons and 6x Robots in that list. Lots and lots of CP.

Ideasweasel wrote:Also Japanese flag indicating you got tired of California or you’ve just made your work pattern official?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh mine is showing as USA which is weird

Yeah, I am in Japan on business for a few weeks. Haha.

So I wound up devising a list which screams "Don't build this, it will be misery". I would need additional Rangers and many with TA, which are all just a nightmare to build and paint. And I would need another Dragoon and two Ironstriders built and painted, which are among my least favorite models. YAY! The rest I have, generally. Just... ick. And I am not sure the list would be even worthwhile really.



It is a heavy gunline with what amounts to really no screen. I know most armies aren't going to get to use anymore and if the Rangers and/or Dragoons need to pull roadblock duty, they can. If that is moot, I will Infiltrate the Goondozer for sure. The Ironstriders augment my anti-tank and can be repaired by the Enginseer, giving him something to actually do! Six TA Rangers means the enemy has to put their characters behind LoS blocking terrain or risk losing them. They can also put hurt on other targets, surprisingly. And with Cawl they may not miss as often (but for sure won't be wounding, lol). Wrathbots with *gasp* a reliable amount of CP to use. But I also have a CP recycler anyhow, because why not? Overall, I think it hilariously looks like list from closer to the Index period or early Codex days. Go fig.

Ya know i'm not overly sure the Graia dogma is affected. The FAQ affects abilities that allow a unit to ignore damage/wounds. Unwilling to yield protects the unit from death, not the damage that caused the death. Otherwise a D6 dmg roll would mean you'd have to roll 6D6 to ignore death on a 1W model.

Suzuteo wrote:

ph34r wrote:I think people call big expensive units "Death Stars"

Well, the Cawlstar is a Deathstar. But the Goondozer has no character. But yeah, 6x Dragoons and 6x Robots in that list. Lots and lots of CP.

Ideasweasel wrote:Also Japanese flag indicating you got tired of California or you’ve just made your work pattern official?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh mine is showing as USA which is weird

Yeah, I am in Japan on business for a few weeks. Haha.

Ah nice one!

Well enjoy

High robot count deathstars got much better with the FAQ. They are safer than they ever used to be. I am also eyeing dropping the neutrons for more robots and basilisks. Dragoons are also very good anti deepstrike screens now. They will always be up the board and are the toughest point for point unit in the midboard.

To the above, I prefer STYGIES-CUSTODES over MARS-CUSTODES. The MARS synergies all happen above 1000 points. STYGIES works on 500.

EDIT: yes, I will be buying 2 more dragoons. The time has come to have 6 on my shelf. I think a mega dragoon bomb could do more damage than the neutrons. Basilisks provide much more relevant firepower than the neutrons. But dragoons now have one of the few remaining first turn dickpunches in the game.

Wulfey wrote:
High robot count deathstars got much better with the FAQ. They are safer than they ever used to be. I am also eyeing dropping the neutrons for more robots and basilisks. Dragoons are also very good anti deepstrike screens now. They will always be up the board and are the toughest point for point unit in the midboard.

To the above, I prefer STYGIES-CUSTODES over MARS-CUSTODES. The MARS synergies all happen above 1000 points. STYGIES works on 500.

EDIT: yes, I will be buying 2 more dragoons. The time has come to have 6 on my shelf. I think a mega dragoon bomb could do more damage than the neutrons. Basilisks provide much more relevant firepower than the neutrons. But dragoons now have one of the few remaining first turn dickpunches in the game.

So your taking the dakabots in a stygies detachment? Wont you miss WoM?

Whats the latest FAQ Wulfey 'tm' list

Going to be playing with a ferocious Tau player tomorrow, 2000 pts. I know he uses Farsight and plays kinda WAAC so I expect to get bummed. Also, shop is not using beta rules, except if both players agree, and OF COURSE he doesn't want, he plays Farsight.

What should I be wary of ? I've played him once with his Index pre-Tau Commander nerf and got raped severely (didn't know he was going to play such a list to be honest). My 3 Dragoons feel useless against Tau due to insane Overwatch. Was going to play my 10 Fulgurites and 3 Dragoons in Infiltration but I wonder. Have 2 Battalion, Stygies and Dark Angels with 10 Hellblasters, Ancient and some stuff. Can post the list if you want.

 Aaranis wrote:
Going to be playing with a ferocious Tau player tomorrow, 2000 pts. I know he uses Farsight and plays kinda WAAC so I expect to get bummed. Also, shop is not using beta rules, except if both players agree, and OF COURSE he doesn't want, he plays Farsight.

What should I be wary of ? I've played him once with his Index pre-Tau Commander nerf and got raped severely (didn't know he was going to play such a list to be honest). My 3 Dragoons feel useless against Tau due to insane Overwatch. Was going to play my 10 Fulgurites and 3 Dragoons in Infiltration but I wonder. Have 2 Battalion, Stygies and Dark Angels with 10 Hellblasters, Ancient and some stuff. Can post the list if you want.

Not playing Beta rules? I would not play that kind of person. WAAC is one thing, willfully ignoring the advice of GW to help curb known game issues is just TFG.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Not playing Beta rules? I would not play that kind of person. WAAC is one thing, willfully ignoring the advice of GW to help curb known game issues is just TFG.

This is what I dislike about beta rules. If they're not mandatory you have to enforce them at your LGS or the people who dislike the rules won't ever use them.

I have another game with beta rules after this guy, a nice Death Guard player, who agreed on using them. Someone have to test them somehow. Going to be speaking to my LGS manager about the beta rules if I can change his mind.

Wait pistols can fire into combat now as long as it's the closest unit? That makes infiltrators a really handy way to potentially free up units that were charged by a weakened squad to shut down your shooting. That's a really cool change if true and gives your dominus a reason to actually use his macro stubber I guess.

Man there are a ton of changes to absorb. Other than the fact that I can't bring as many onagers, I feel like my admech got a good boost and I play Metallica. Id imagine the more competitive admech forgeworlds are feeling a lot better now.

Still wish we had a Skitarii HQ and a way to scout rangers, but it's a start at least.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Wait pistols can fire into combat now as long as it's the closest unit? That makes infiltrators a really handy way to potentially free up units that were charged by a weakened squad to shut down your shooting. That's a really cool change if true and gives your dominus a reason to actually use his macro stubber I guess.

Man there are a ton of changes to absorb. Other than the fact that I can't bring as many onagers, I feel like my admech got a good boost and I play Metallica. Id imagine the more competitive admech forgeworlds are feeling a lot better now.

Still wish we had a Skitarii HQ and a way to scout rangers, but it's a start at least.

Pistols have literally always been able to fire in combat.

Yes it just clarified for other reasons. I once killed an Eversor with the Macrostubber in CC, then he exploded, hilarious

Pistols can only shoot into combat if the unit firing is engaged into combat. And I don't think that has changed with this faq.\

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are
enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but
it must target the closest enemy unit. In
such circumstances, the model can shoot
its Pistol even if other friendly units are
within 1" of the same enemy unit.

In such circumstances related to being within 1" of an enemy unit.
You can't shoot at enemies within 1" of a friendly unless you are yourself engaged in combat.

The Faq explains that if you are in combat with Enemy unit A but Enemy unit B is the closest target to your model you can (and must) shoot at B, even if B is in combat with another unit.

Oh ok, I was about to say that would be huge if you could fire into combat while being outside of it. The way he said it made it sound like that was an option, my bad.

Dont worry, robots will always be MARS. The dragoons will either be MARS as just a screen, or brought in a STYGIES aux detachment and/or battalion. The stygies AUX detachment has gotten a lot better with 5CP battalions. Basically everything admech is better now. Gunlines are better, dragoon deathpunches are better. Skitarii troops are more valuable with the extra CP. My current thinking is keep using my dakkabot-MARS-basilisks gunline. That is just because I have those models. But I keep hearing about how great artemia pattern hellhounds are, and having something fast, tanky, and suicidal would be nice as a distraction unit to protect my dakkabots. I still think 5x dakkabot + cawl is the core base for admech. I have a sentimental attachment to Cawl, Celestine, and 5x dakkabots. But very high dragoon count lists are going to be good and a STYGIES battalion that supports guard is also going to be good.

Wulfey wrote:
Dont worry, robots will always be MARS. The dragoons will either be MARS as just a screen, or brought in a STYGIES aux detachment and/or battalion. The stygies AUX detachment has gotten a lot better with 5CP battalions. Basically everything admech is better now. Gunlines are better, dragoon deathpunches are better. Skitarii troops are more valuable with the extra CP. My current thinking is keep using my dakkabot-MARS-basilisks gunline. That is just because I have those models. But I keep hearing about how great artemia pattern hellhounds are, and having something fast, tanky, and suicidal would be nice as a distraction unit to protect my dakkabots. I still think 5x dakkabot + cawl is the core base for admech. I have a sentimental attachment to Cawl, Celestine, and 5x dakkabots. But very high dragoon count lists are going to be good and a STYGIES battalion that supports guard is also going to be good.

you are correct. Dakkastelans and dragoons were a stand out either way but the faq buffed them immensely. I have no idea how you survive without a culexus. Do tell! :-) and I got with Custodes what you have with celestine. Want them in my list and always take them. I am so glad i never have to take kurlovs aquila ever again :-D

 Ordana wrote:
Pistols can only shoot into combat if the unit firing is engaged into combat. And I don't think that has changed with this faq.\

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are
enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but
it must target the closest enemy unit. In
such circumstances, the model can shoot
its Pistol even if other friendly units are
within 1" of the same enemy unit.

In such circumstances related to being within 1" of an enemy unit.
You can't shoot at enemies within 1" of a friendly unless you are yourself engaged in combat.

The Faq explains that if you are in combat with Enemy unit A but Enemy unit B is the closest target to your model you can (and must) shoot at B, even if B is in combat with another unit.

Not quite. Its saying you always shoot at the closest unit, which will be the one youre fighting. What this disallows is having unit 1 and unit 2 fighting unit A and unit B, respectively, and unit 1 shooting at unit B or unit 2 shooting unit A. If that makes sense. Theres no huge change here, its just a clarification that youre going to shoot what your unit is in combat with, not *any* enemy unit thats currently in combat and range.

Iago40k wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Dont worry, robots will always be MARS. The dragoons will either be MARS as just a screen, or brought in a STYGIES aux detachment and/or battalion. The stygies AUX detachment has gotten a lot better with 5CP battalions. Basically everything admech is better now. Gunlines are better, dragoon deathpunches are better. Skitarii troops are more valuable with the extra CP. My current thinking is keep using my dakkabot-MARS-basilisks gunline. That is just because I have those models. But I keep hearing about how great artemia pattern hellhounds are, and having something fast, tanky, and suicidal would be nice as a distraction unit to protect my dakkabots. I still think 5x dakkabot + cawl is the core base for admech. I have a sentimental attachment to Cawl, Celestine, and 5x dakkabots. But very high dragoon count lists are going to be good and a STYGIES battalion that supports guard is also going to be good.

you are correct. Dakkastelans and dragoons were a stand out either way but the faq buffed them immensely. I have no idea how you survive without a culexus. Do tell! :-) and I got with Custodes what you have with celestine. Want them in my list and always take them. I am so glad i never have to take kurlovs aquila ever again :-D

Curious as to the reason for ditching kurlovs. You going with Admech 6+ one or just meaning that with the +5 battalion your now swimming in CP? What’s your warlord trait poison now then?

Hi

With the new faq, what do you think about a list of this type?

Mars bataillon:
- Cawl
- TPE
- 3 Destroyers plasma
- 2x5 vanguard
- 4 Kastelan
- 10 infiltrators

Stygies bataillon:
- TPD
- TPE
- 3x5 rangers
- 4 Dragoons
- icarus onager
- neutron onager

Thanks !

 Ideasweasel wrote:


Curious as to the reason for ditching kurlovs. You going with Admech 6+ one or just meaning that with the +5 battalion your now swimming in CP? What’s your warlord trait poison now then?

Was never a Fan of adding astra militarum to admech and only played the CC with space Marine scouts and a culexus in a soup Battalion. Since Battalion are 5 cp now 2 of them are enough cp for me. Sure you can use Monitor if youd like to. Since i add custodes i tend to till that warlord is dead and i can use shoulder the mantle.

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Iago40k wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Dont worry, robots will always be MARS. The dragoons will either be MARS as just a screen, or brought in a STYGIES aux detachment and/or battalion. The stygies AUX detachment has gotten a lot better with 5CP battalions. Basically everything admech is better now. Gunlines are better, dragoon deathpunches are better. Skitarii troops are more valuable with the extra CP. My current thinking is keep using my dakkabot-MARS-basilisks gunline. That is just because I have those models. But I keep hearing about how great artemia pattern hellhounds are, and having something fast, tanky, and suicidal would be nice as a distraction unit to protect my dakkabots. I still think 5x dakkabot + cawl is the core base for admech. I have a sentimental attachment to Cawl, Celestine, and 5x dakkabots. But very high dragoon count lists are going to be good and a STYGIES battalion that supports guard is also going to be good.

you are correct. Dakkastelans and dragoons were a stand out either way but the faq buffed them immensely. I have no idea how you survive without a culexus. Do tell! :-) and I got with Custodes what you have with celestine. Want them in my list and always take them. I am so glad i never have to take kurlovs aquila ever again :-D

Curious as to the reason for ditching kurlovs. You going with Admech 6+ one or just meaning that with the +5 battalion your now swimming in CP? What’s your warlord trait poison now then?

If you run two Battalions, you can do Monitor Malevolus. But I recommend 5+/5+ because you can easily blow 5 CP in the first turn (Infiltrate, CDI, Binharic Override, Wrath of Mars).

Iago40k wrote:
you are correct. Dakkastelans and dragoons were a stand out either way but the faq buffed them immensely. I have no idea how you survive without a culexus. Do tell! :-) and I got with Custodes what you have with celestine. Want them in my list and always take them. I am so glad i never have to take kurlovs aquila ever again :-D

Yeah. My most recent list has 6x Mars Robots and 6x Stygies Dragoons.


I solve my Psyker problem by shooting them from outside 18". Haha.

Octovol wrote:
Ya know i'm not overly sure the Graia dogma is affected. The FAQ affects abilities that allow a unit to ignore damage/wounds. Unwilling to yield protects the unit from death, not the damage that caused the death. Otherwise a D6 dmg roll would mean you'd have to roll 6D6 to ignore death on a 1W model.

EDIT:

‘Roll a D6 each time a model with this dogma is slain or flees – on a 6 that model refuses to yield; either that model is not slain (and has 1 wound remaining), or that model does not flee.’

Actually, now that I read this again, I see your point.

The changes are the bolded section above, which changes ignoring one wound to preventing death itself with 1 wound left.

So some questions for you guys:

1) Do you think the increase in CP made the Destroyer + Robot combination more viable? (Sure the destroyers are still kinda squishy, but everything shooting at them isn´t targeting the bots)

2) Whats your general consensus regarding Dunecrawlers? I really want to include them, but honestly I don´t know if it is worthwile... The Neutronlaser is quite random and lacking good targets in my meta, while the Icarus is allright, but when firing it I mostly wish that is would be just another robot xD
They got huge bases though, so they can be used to screen in front of my robots.

3) I´m debating to increase my robot count from 4 to 6: Anyone experiment with splitting such a group to 2 x 3 units, do prevent to be tied up?

I've always love the Elimination Volley stratagem with my plasma Destroyers, it's a great boost and benefits both the Destroyers and the Robots. 2 more CPs are welcome.

I'm wondering some times if playing the Eradication Beamer in very aggressive lists where you move up the board might be worthwhile. I'm speaking of a mostly short-ranged but intense gun line comprised of Beamers, Electro-Priests, Vanguards, Dragoons...

I've played 5 Robots in one squad once with Mars, and I think it's easier to protect them this way, and one less deployment to go first easier. It's a meaner Overwatch (especially with the Technomartyr's Raiment close by) and they take the same space as two units so the screen is the same. Don't forget they can fire through their own unit if I'm not mistaken, so you can pack them up nicely.

I love dunecrawlers. Roll 1 for shots? Obvious command point opportunity Have any negative to hit modifiers? 1 cp stratagem to get +2 to hit, and you are presumably retooling everything from your Archmagos/Cawl.

Dunecrawlers are solidly resilient too with the 5++ re-roll 1s and more wounds than robots.

 ph34r wrote:
I love dunecrawlers. Roll 1 for shots? Obvious command point opportunity Have any negative to hit modifiers? 1 cp stratagem to get +2 to hit, and you are presumably retooling everything from your Archmagos/Cawl.

Dunecrawlers are solidly resilient too with the 5++ re-roll 1s and more wounds than robots.

You could potentially use Beamcrawlers as a massive screen they're so cheap for their toughness )

Octovol wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I love dunecrawlers. Roll 1 for shots? Obvious command point opportunity Have any negative to hit modifiers? 1 cp stratagem to get +2 to hit, and you are presumably retooling everything from your Archmagos/Cawl.

Dunecrawlers are solidly resilient too with the 5++ re-roll 1s and more wounds than robots.

You could potentially use Beamcrawlers as a massive screen they're so cheap for their toughness )

They only problem with that now is the limit of three datasheets. Dunecrawlers should be 1-3 per unit just like leman russes.

 Aaranis wrote:
Going to be playing with a ferocious Tau player tomorrow, 2000 pts. I know he uses Farsight and plays kinda WAAC so I expect to get bummed. Also, shop is not using beta rules, except if both players agree, and OF COURSE he doesn't want, he plays Farsight.

What should I be wary of ? I've played him once with his Index pre-Tau Commander nerf and got raped severely (didn't know he was going to play such a list to be honest). My 3 Dragoons feel useless against Tau due to insane Overwatch. Was going to play my 10 Fulgurites and 3 Dragoons in Infiltration but I wonder. Have 2 Battalion, Stygies and Dark Angels with 10 Hellblasters, Ancient and some stuff. Can post the list if you want.

Well this went actually really well, he played a Farsight bomb with a good chunk of Crisis (maybe 9) with a dozen drones, two Devilfish with Strike Teams, one quad-fusion Commander, a Stealth team, and a Riptide, I think that's all, some more Fire Warriors and cadre blades.

He dropped first turn with the Farsight bomb and killed one of my two Robots and 1 DA Bike, maybe some Rangers too, don't remember. He made a mistake as he forgot to say his Drones were shooting something else and so made them shoot the Robots but they did nothing. Overall he didn't do much damage this side of the board, but killed most of my infantry with other units.

My turn, I pop Binharic Override, draw my Destroyers from their cover, pop Elimination Volley and prepare to shoot at the Farsight bomb. I first kill all the drones and some Crisis with my 10 Intercessors, my DA Master on jet pack, 3 bolter Inceptors and some bikes, and then I unleash the Robots and the Destroyers, who rolled like 14 shots on overcharge, it was insane. I then charge the remaining Crisis and Farsight with 5 Intercessors, my TH/Combi-melta Master, and the 3 Inceptors, who deep-striked previously on a height, and charged from there (thanks the FAQ btw). I proceed to kill the Crisis, consolidate with my Master, and pay 3 CP so that he may fight again, and this killed Farsight.

After that my opponent had lost the spirit, we played one more turn but it was mostly clean-up from me, he couldn't control the board with so few models. Revenge !

On the other end I got to play at 1750 pts against a DG player and he used like 100+ Poxwalkers and Plaguebringers, with a Nurgle Prince and Great Unclean One. We played the Relic and I conceded turn 4 because he finally caught it and there was no way I could get it back, not enough firepower. I made some mistakes like not screening sufficiently my artillery, and even then it was just impossible to kill that GUO so he rampaged.

I think I'll stop playing against Nurgle for a while, it's just frustrating to do so little damage against them. I only win against them when playing Cawlstar.

 Aaranis wrote:
I've always love the Elimination Volley stratagem with my plasma Destroyers, it's a great boost and benefits both the Destroyers and the Robots. 2 more CPs are welcome.

I'm wondering some times if playing the Eradication Beamer in very aggressive lists where you move up the board might be worthwhile. I'm speaking of a mostly short-ranged but intense gun line comprised of Beamers, Electro-Priests, Vanguards, Dragoons...

I've played 5 Robots in one squad once with Mars, and I think it's easier to protect them this way, and one less deployment to go first easier. It's a meaner Overwatch (especially with the Technomartyr's Raiment close by) and they take the same space as two units so the screen is the same. Don't forget they can fire through their own unit if I'm not mistaken, so you can pack them up nicely.

The whole issue with elimination volley was keeping those destroyers alive if you went second. Since deep strike alphas are now much weaker and making a MARS battalion is more attractive, I think an argument can be made to bring back some destroyers. The plasma ones are some of the strongest point for point shooting in the game, but they are flatly suicidal when they shoot and they die like flies from mere bolter fire. They are effectively an all in strategy. If you can resolve the ELIMINATION VOLLEY + WRATH OF MARS + BINHARIC OVERRIDE, yeah, you are going to win. But tournament players will do their damndest to deploy to deny you that stack of abilities. If you bring that to an RT, you will likely get 1 game of 3 where you get first turn and your opponent deploys in LOS. I was theorycrafting with my admech buddy and something we were considering was running a skyshield landing pad to support a 6xdakkabot stack. If you crowd the floor of the landing pad, then they are unassaultable until there is space to place a base of a model on there. So if you were to cram Cawl, the Dakkabots, and 3x basilisks up there, then you would be immune to assault until something died. You could possibly hide the destroyers under the platform to deny LOS and then move them up on the platform in some kind of swap on your turn. The big payoff here is that the platform itself greatly improves the LOS of your robots. Making them 3" taller helps a lot. And will help the destroyers.

Hah, I like the sky shield idea. Shame detachments are so dang tight, for me at least.

 ph34r wrote:
Hah, I like the sky shield idea. Shame detachments are so dang tight, for me at least.

Yeah this is a new thing post FAQ. Every list should have 2 battalions. So you only get 1 spare detachment for oddball units.

Wulfey wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I've always love the Elimination Volley stratagem with my plasma Destroyers, it's a great boost and benefits both the Destroyers and the Robots. 2 more CPs are welcome.

I'm wondering some times if playing the Eradication Beamer in very aggressive lists where you move up the board might be worthwhile. I'm speaking of a mostly short-ranged but intense gun line comprised of Beamers, Electro-Priests, Vanguards, Dragoons...

I've played 5 Robots in one squad once with Mars, and I think it's easier to protect them this way, and one less deployment to go first easier. It's a meaner Overwatch (especially with the Technomartyr's Raiment close by) and they take the same space as two units so the screen is the same. Don't forget they can fire through their own unit if I'm not mistaken, so you can pack them up nicely.

The whole issue with elimination volley was keeping those destroyers alive if you went second. Since deep strike alphas are now much weaker and making a MARS battalion is more attractive, I think an argument can be made to bring back some destroyers. The plasma ones are some of the strongest point for point shooting in the game, but they are flatly suicidal when they shoot and they die like flies from mere bolter fire. They are effectively an all in strategy. If you can resolve the ELIMINATION VOLLEY + WRATH OF MARS + BINHARIC OVERRIDE, yeah, you are going to win. But tournament players will do their damndest to deploy to deny you that stack of abilities. If you bring that to an RT, you will likely get 1 game of 3 where you get first turn and your opponent deploys in LOS. I was theorycrafting with my admech buddy and something we were considering was running a skyshield landing pad to support a 6xdakkabot stack. If you crowd the floor of the landing pad, then they are unassaultable until there is space to place a base of a model on there. So if you were to cram Cawl, the Dakkabots, and 3x basilisks up there, then you would be immune to assault until something died. You could possibly hide the destroyers under the platform to deny LOS and then move them up on the platform in some kind of swap on your turn. The big payoff here is that the platform itself greatly improves the LOS of your robots. Making them 3" taller helps a lot. And will help the destroyers.

Would lean towards a 3 or 6 destroyer squad?

For destroyers I see a few ways to run them.
(1) 1x3 -- hide them out of LOS and hope
(2) 1x6 -- this has best odds of surviving, but makes them an even better alpha target, higher risk, higher reward
(3) 1x3 or 1x6 + 100 point bunker -- this is very safe and guarantees you get the volley off, also you can give your destroyers another 3" of height when they come out. You can also do some shenanigans with making charges harder on your robots with creative bunker placement. [you must exit the bunker to use the strategem]

Wulfey wrote:
For destroyers I see a few ways to run them.
(1) 1x3 -- hide them out of LOS and hope
(2) 1x6 -- this has best odds of surviving, but makes them an even better alpha target, higher risk, higher reward
(3) 1x3 or 1x6 + 100 point bunker -- this is very safe and guarantees you get the volley off, also you can give your destroyers another 3" of height when they come out. You can also do some shenanigans with making charges harder on your robots with creative bunker placement. [you must exit the bunker to use the strategem]

Thanks. I guess take the phosphor as secondary weapon option?

Not sure I rate a S5 bolter over 3D6 overwatch shots/60% charge failure for 2pts more a model.

Things to note with 6 destroyers - that's too much to bring back as an Agrinpinna detachment, whereas two units of three can be more than that.

You still want to run them as Mars, so they synergies with Cawl + bots.

If only we could have a stratagem or something to make a regular Dominus an Archmagos, so that we don't have to take Mars if we want rerolls.

 Aaranis wrote:
If only we could have a stratagem or something to make a regular Dominus an Archmagos, so that we don't have to take Mars if we want rerolls.

That would be amazing.

Fire of Cyraxus will fix it I'm sure!

Tastyfish wrote:
Not sure I rate a S5 bolter over 3D6 overwatch shots/60% charge failure for 2pts more a model.

Things to note with 6 destroyers - that's too much to bring back as an Agrinpinna detachment, whereas two units of three can be more than that.

Not true. You can recycle a unit of 6 for 3CP. Its the maximum unit size you can recycle, but its possible. And you probably want to choose this option over two units of three to save CP - To recycle all 6 models in a 2x3 configuration, you have to pay 4 CP. a 1x6 squad pays 3. Bargain.

(plus, you get to use the elimination volley stratagem on all of them, rather than just half.)

 ph34r wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
If only we could have a stratagem or something to make a regular Dominus an Archmagos, so that we don't have to take Mars if we want rerolls.

That would be amazing.

Fire of Cyraxus will fix it I'm sure!

I don't have hope anymore, hope is for fleshlings

 Tyr13 wrote:

Tastyfish wrote:
Not sure I rate a S5 bolter over 3D6 overwatch shots/60% charge failure for 2pts more a model.

Things to note with 6 destroyers - that's too much to bring back as an Agrinpinna detachment, whereas two units of three can be more than that.

Not true. You can recycle a unit of 6 for 3CP. Its the maximum unit size you can recycle, but its possible. And you probably want to choose this option over two units of three to save CP - To recycle all 6 models in a 2x3 configuration, you have to pay 4 CP. a 1x6 squad pays 3. Bargain.

(plus, you get to use the elimination volley stratagem on all of them, rather than just half.)

True, I'd misread it as <20 rather than equal or less.

I actually really hope they do 1-2-model units of Crawlers. I mean, from the rules, they seem meant to be paired.

Suzuteo wrote:
I actually really hope they do 1-2-model units of Crawlers. I mean, from the rules, they seem meant to be paired.

The best we can hope for is CA 18. Hopefully Fires is out before then and we don't have to rely on neutroncrawlers for taking out big stuff. Or maybe the knights codex with buff them enough to make them points efficient and able to be integrated better. but who am I kidding, they'll suck and Fires will never happen

 Aaranis wrote:
If only we could have a stratagem or something to make a regular Dominus an Archmagos, so that we don't have to take Mars if we want rerolls.

This is the biggest hole in the codex. Sure, a whole lot of unit entries are just bad. But that we don't have a chapter master strategem makes all the forgeworlds into jokes as soon as you start writing a shooting list. The second you include a shooting unit, the first thing you think is "damn, this unit would work better with Cawls full reroll aura". The opportunity cost of going from rerolling 1s to hit in the shooting phase to full rerolls (even over blank rolls from modifiers) is just too much. It removes all the horizontal choice from the codex. MARS is just better for shooting, period.

Nick Nanavati's opinion:

"Admech don't have enough unit choices. Half the codex is really good, half is totally useless. Chicken walkers are great, Onagers aren't bad, couple of robots aren't bad, rangers are really good value, cawl's not too bad, electro priests when they work are fantastic, when they don't - they just die. Everything else kind of sucks. Underdeveloped army. They'll be about the same as before."

stangfan94 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
I actually really hope they do 1-2-model units of Crawlers. I mean, from the rules, they seem meant to be paired.

The best we can hope for is CA 18. Hopefully Fires is out before then and we don't have to rely on neutroncrawlers for taking out big stuff. Or maybe the knights codex with buff them enough to make them points efficient and able to be integrated better. but who am I kidding, they'll suck and Fires will never happen

Ideally, the Knights codex will give us some way to make ONE Knight work for our army. We are really good at supporting a single Knight. Rotate Ion Shields every turn. Machine Spirit Resurgent every turn past one. Tech Adepts to double heal. You get the idea.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nick Nanavati's opinion:

"Admech don't have enough unit choices. Half the codex is really good, half is totally useless. Chicken walkers are great, Onagers aren't bad, couple of robots aren't bad, rangers are really good value, cawl's not too bad, electro priests when they work are fantastic, when they don't - they just die. Everything else kind of sucks. Underdeveloped army. They'll be about the same as before."

Yeah. I can't make this imperium admech army work. Celestine / Scouts / Basilisks did a lot of work to cover the weaknesses of admech. But I can't have all 3 of those things now. I can only pick 2. I don't want to need scouts anymore, but nurgling / alpha legion infiltrates can auto table you if they get first turn and you don't have scouts. But taking the scouts means I Have to take junky space marine HQs .. which are so bad I might as well go smash captain and mephiston. Just running Celestine and Basilisks gives me the best odds of truly taking all comers, but then I leave myself open to the nurgling deploy and forward operatives alpha strike. If I put in STYGIES dragoons into some kind of mixed detachment I still can't answer the nurglings taking up all the good space. And trying to run admech that isn't Cawl/Dakkabots results in a gunline that doesn't have enough gun in it to win. Hmmm.

Suzuteo wrote:

stangfan94 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
I actually really hope they do 1-2-model units of Crawlers. I mean, from the rules, they seem meant to be paired.

The best we can hope for is CA 18. Hopefully Fires is out before then and we don't have to rely on neutroncrawlers for taking out big stuff. Or maybe the knights codex with buff them enough to make them points efficient and able to be integrated better. but who am I kidding, they'll suck and Fires will never happen

Ideally, the Knights codex will give us some way to make ONE Knight work for our army. We are really good at supporting a single Knight. Rotate Ion Shields every turn. Machine Spirit Resurgent every turn past one. Tech Adepts to double heal. You get the idea.

On this note I have been considering the Questoris Knight Styrix. No two gun option, but it is cheap. 4+ invulnerable that we can rotate shields to 3++ I'm pretty sure. I'll be trying to get my hands on one after I finish up the mortars for my list.

Wulfey wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nick Nanavati's opinion:

"Admech don't have enough unit choices. Half the codex is really good, half is totally useless. Chicken walkers are great, Onagers aren't bad, couple of robots aren't bad, rangers are really good value, cawl's not too bad, electro priests when they work are fantastic, when they don't - they just die. Everything else kind of sucks. Underdeveloped army. They'll be about the same as before."

Yeah. I can't make this imperium admech army work. Celestine / Scouts / Basilisks did a lot of work to cover the weaknesses of admech. But I can't have all 3 of those things now. I can only pick 2. I don't want to need scouts anymore, but nurgling / alpha legion infiltrates can auto table you if they get first turn and you don't have scouts. But taking the scouts means I Have to take junky space marine HQs .. which are so bad I might as well go smash captain and mephiston. Just running Celestine and Basilisks gives me the best odds of truly taking all comers, but then I leave myself open to the nurgling deploy and forward operatives alpha strike. If I put in STYGIES dragoons into some kind of mixed detachment I still can't answer the nurglings taking up all the good space. And trying to run admech that isn't Cawl/Dakkabots results in a gunline that doesn't have enough gun in it to win. Hmmm.

I can see the appeal of Celestine as an HQ choice, but I have never found her necessary. In any case, the answer to your question is simple. In fact, you and I discussed this about a year ago: Dominion Squads.

Vanguard: Once both sides are deployed but before the first player takes their turn, this unit can move as if it were their Movement phase. If both players have units that can do this, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first. If all of the models embarked on a transport vehicle have this ability, then the transport vehicle can make the move instead.

So the order is deployment, seize after one player finishes deploying, Vanguard move after both players finish deploying (you can Advance too, it seems), then infiltrate at the start of the first battle round.

So, something like:



Alpha Zerker spam is scary, but it's not impossible to fight off if you have enough bodies between you and the enemy. I actually think they are a lot less scary than Blood Angels anyway.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm going to try my Stygies lists with 10 Fulgurites and 3 Dragoons in Infiltration in the upcoming days, just so people don't believe they're safe from turn 1 charges, yet... Maybe even add one of my Domini with the relic axe that gives +2S -2 AP 3D.

And in next FAQ they will suddenly no longer be able to do their thing first turn...

Lets hope not


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:
So the basic gunline list of Cawl - dakkabots - guard artillery is even better. The stuff that really pooped on that list got weaker. Celestine is now more expensive to get, but a guard battalion gives lots of CP and going up to a battalion of MARS gives a whole lot of CP.

This list has 13CP. Like holy hell that is a lot. Do I even need the CP battery? Maybe I even run sisters HQs.

CADIA - 2x commanders, 3x9 mortar guards, 2x baslisks, 2x mortar teams
SISTERS - Celestine + 1x5 girls with 3x storm bolters
MARS - Cawl, Enginseer, 5x dakkabots, 2x neutrons, 3x5 rangers or vanguards

No scouts. But I can double move the guardsmen up the board even further than the scouts on turn 1.

GOD I hate soup.

But if that's what it takes...

(I still won't play tournaments like that, I'm the fun game kind )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah boy, charge immunity!

Not to rain on tour parade, but the chargers can get within 1"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stangfan94 wrote:

Octovol wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I love dunecrawlers. Roll 1 for shots? Obvious command point opportunity Have any negative to hit modifiers? 1 cp stratagem to get +2 to hit, and you are presumably retooling everything from your Archmagos/Cawl.

Dunecrawlers are solidly resilient too with the 5++ re-roll 1s and more wounds than robots.

You could potentially use Beamcrawlers as a massive screen they're so cheap for their toughness )

They only problem with that now is the limit of three datasheets. Dunecrawlers should be 1-3 per unit just like leman russes.

Or better yet, Russes shouldn't be vehicle squadrons, they're already powerhouses (and waay stronger than crawlers, what with their cheesy fire twice shtick)

 ph34r wrote:
On this note I have been considering the Questoris Knight Styrix. No two gun option, but it is cheap. 4+ invulnerable that we can rotate shields to 3++ I'm pretty sure. I'll be trying to get my hands on one after I finish up the mortars for my list.

I run a Styrix in my 2k Ad Mech list and I find that it works really well, currently you can't use the strategems on it has the wrong keywords for it but for 500pts kitted out with the siege claw (as it come with the rad cleanser built into it) it does some serious work. I also love when the vokite chieoroville procs and I get the extra hits and wipe a vehicle or Monster out in one shot.

Hi, I would like to play electro priest in a 5 man squad yo protect my gunline of robots and I wonder if Corpuscarii are better or not than fulgurite for this specific role?

@DaKhriSMade

Errrr no they can't, The distance between the letter base and enginseer base is more than 1''

HeavenLord wrote:
Hi, I would like to play electro priest in a 5 man squad yo protect my gunline of robots and I wonder if Corpuscarii are better or not than fulgurite for this specific role?

Neither. Rangers to screen. If you really want Priests, Fulgurites work but generally are overpriced. Stygies is best, generally. Gives you access to infiltrate them and the -1 to-hit helps them a lot, but it is still an underwhelming unit.

Sorry I mean protect the robots in counter charge not to screen them

HeavenLord wrote:
Sorry I mean protect the robots in counter charge not to screen them

They still do a mediocre job at that.

For robots if they get charged you are in serious serious trouble. Why not just prevent the charge in the first place?

Man how much longer we gotta wait for knights

Our faction trait is waiting excessively long amounts of time. The Knight codex is nothing compared to Waiting For Cyraxus - The Play.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@DaKhriSMade

Errrr no they can't, The distance between the letter base and enginseer base is more than 1''

Bases dont have to be plane on the ground afaik as long as the model stands on it and is not laying flat on the ground you can try to balance it on its rim and on the "ruin". In this case certainly.

Fulgurites are not overpriced, they just lack a delivery mechanism. They're immense elite/biker/hq killers, tougher targets just require better wound rolls, but the damage is still there. At 16pts per model 10 of them wreck just about anything they come into contact with....it's the contact part that makes them less feasible.

Octovol wrote:
Fulgurites are not overpriced, they just lack a delivery mechanism. They're immense elite/biker/hq killers, tougher targets just require better wound rolls, but the damage is still there. At 16pts per model 10 of them wreck just about anything they come into contact with....it's the contact part that makes them less feasible.

They hit alright, but are pretty squishy despite their invuln, until they actually get a kill.

Without a transport, yes, they are a bit overpriced as we need to horde them to get them across the table to actually do anything. If we had any means of transport, they would be suitably priced.

Has anyone had luck using Styges Infiltration Stratagem to get them up in the enemys face on turn 1? Sounds like it might work in theory (I am new to AdMech and stll building my army but look forward to playing them soon)

Mark.

What about stygies infiltration strat with small unit something that will be wiped out if they shoot it but might not be worth shooting

Iago40k wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@DaKhriSMade

Errrr no they can't, The distance between the letter base and enginseer base is more than 1''

Bases dont have to be plane on the ground afaik as long as the model stands on it and is not laying flat on the ground you can try to balance it on its rim and on the "ruin". In this case certainly.

I believe you are wrong as of the Big FAQ.

Per the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is entirely on the upper level of a terrain feature such as a ruin, Sector Mechanicus structure, etc., but it cannot physically end its charge move within 1" of any models from that unit (either because there is not enough room to place the charging unit, or because the charging unit is unable to end its move on the upper levels of that terrain feature because of the expanded terrain rules for it – as with ruins, for example), does that charge fail?

A: Yes.

Bold added for emphasis. This part is exactly where WMS applies. So this means there must be enough room on the same level as the charge target for the charging unit for that charge to succeed.

Suzuteo wrote:

Iago40k wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@DaKhriSMade

Errrr no they can't, The distance between the letter base and enginseer base is more than 1''

Bases dont have to be plane on the ground afaik as long as the model stands on it and is not laying flat on the ground you can try to balance it on its rim and on the "ruin". In this case certainly.

I believe you are wrong as of the Big FAQ.

Per the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is entirely on the upper level of a terrain feature such as a ruin, Sector Mechanicus structure, etc., but it cannot physically end its charge move within 1" of any models from that unit (either because there is not enough room to place the charging unit, or because the charging unit is unable to end its move on the upper levels of that terrain feature because of the expanded terrain rules for it – as with ruins, for example), does that charge fail?

A: Yes.

Bold added for emphasis. This part is exactly where WMS applies. So this means there must be enough room on the same level as the charge target for the charging unit for that charge to succeed.

Huh. So putting Stygies Rangers onto the upper floors without room for enemies is kinda mean, right? You just need an inch around the edges and max coherency between and no one can charge you? Rude stuff.

It's not super hard to kill one ranger though, is it? Feels like this tactic sounds good on paper but in reality you will get 1 ranger plinked dead and then you're toast.

Also what people aren't twigging is that if you're stuck up a building, you can't fall back out of combat.

 Silentz wrote:
It's not super hard to kill one ranger though, is it? Feels like this tactic sounds good on paper but in reality you will get 1 ranger plinked dead and then you're toast.

Also what people aren't twigging is that if you're stuck up a building, you can't fall back out of combat.

Take casualties from the middle first. And most ruins aren't that big, especially second floor ruins, so you don't truly even need all 5ish dudes to cover the area. I have a hunch this ruling may not last.

Alright, trying to keep the admech dream alive. I think I found my new soup. Guard is dead. Long live slamguinius. 12 base CP, I spend 1 before game starts and give WLT and relic to slam. Then I have 11 CP to spend on either slam or the dakkabots to lay the pain train. This is 1332 points of admech, which is more than I previously ran.

BA Battalion - Slamguinius, Meph, 3x5 scouts

MARS Battalion - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x6 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons

SISTERS Aux - Cel/Geminae

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, trying to keep the admech dream alive. I think I found my new soup. Guard is dead. Long live slamguinius. 12 base CP, I spend 1 before game starts and give WLT and relic to slam. Then I have 11 CP to spend on either slam or the dakkabots to lay the pain train. This is 1332 points of admech, which is more than I previously ran.

BA Battalion - Slamguinius, Meph, 3x5 scouts

MARS Battalion - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x6 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons

SISTERS Aux - Cel/Geminae

Can you find 5 more points for admech to make it 1337?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, trying to keep the admech dream alive. I think I found my new soup. Guard is dead. Long live slamguinius. 12 base CP, I spend 1 before game starts and give WLT and relic to slam. Then I have 11 CP to spend on either slam or the dakkabots to lay the pain train. This is 1332 points of admech, which is more than I previously ran.

BA Battalion - Slamguinius, Meph, 3x5 scouts

MARS Battalion - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x6 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons

SISTERS Aux - Cel/Geminae

Can you find 5 more points for admech to make it 1337?

Haha my exact thoughts too!

Looks a fun list though.

I wish. I am actually at 1996 points and can't spare 5 more points to upgrade a ranger unit to a vanguard.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


Take casualties from the middle first. .

Doesn't matter - your chargers can pop right up in the middle of them. Whatever you are charging in will presumably kill something (otherwise why are you bothering?) and then more can consolidate up.

The worst they can probably do is take from the opposite side to where you are, so your charge is longer.

 Silentz wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


Take casualties from the middle first. .

Doesn't matter - your chargers can pop right up in the middle of them. Whatever you are charging in will presumably kill something (otherwise why are you bothering?) and then more can consolidate up.

The worst they can probably do is take from the opposite side to where you are, so your charge is longer.

Going to be hard for them to pop in and still be outside of 1" from every dude you have. We use mostly GW terrain at my LGS too, and those top floors are especially tight.

Also, with Stygies and Canticles, they'd have to put a fair amount of shooting to clear a spot, which is good.

I like how my Celestine aux has been spreading about amongst my fellow admech players. (maybe we had the same idea at about the same time?)

 LexOdin9 wrote:
I like how my Celestine aux has been spreading about amongst my fellow admech players. (maybe we had the same idea at about the same time?)

If I had 45-51 points I would put some bolter girls with her. But I think it is worth spending 1CP to make sure that I have more raw firepower in the main detachments. And yes, celestine is really needed with admech. When I left her at home, I went 1-2. When I brought her, I was 2-1 and sometimes even 3-0. She brings way way too much to the table to not be brought.

Wulfey wrote:

 LexOdin9 wrote:
I like how my Celestine aux has been spreading about amongst my fellow admech players. (maybe we had the same idea at about the same time?)

If I had 45-51 points I would put some bolter girls with her. But I think it is worth spending 1CP to make sure that I have more raw firepower in the main detachments. And yes, celestine is really needed with admech. When I left her at home, I went 1-2. When I brought her, I was 2-1 and sometimes even 3-0. She brings way way too much to the table to not be brought.

I agree, I also think rangers are more valuable than bolter girls since the ranger rifles have (1) longer range, (2) are cheaper, (3) can get the same 3+ save from cover, (4) can potentially be more accurate, (5) can potentially get AP -1 on a roll of 6, which is in total enough for me to never want to bring Sisters troops.

I'm guessing this FAQ killed Smashf*cker? =(

Sigh. The only reason for us to run fluffy Iron Hands...


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Wulfey wrote:
Alright, trying to keep the admech dream alive. I think I found my new soup. Guard is dead. Long live slamguinius. 12 base CP, I spend 1 before game starts and give WLT and relic to slam. Then I have 11 CP to spend on either slam or the dakkabots to lay the pain train. This is 1332 points of admech, which is more than I previously ran.

BA Battalion - Slamguinius, Meph, 3x5 scouts

MARS Battalion - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x6 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons

SISTERS Aux - Cel/Geminae

I don't think you're allowed to have Geminae in an Auxiliary detachment. One unit only, which is Celestine.

While Slamguinius, Mephiston, 3x5 Scouts + Celestine Aux is interesting, I do question if it is worth giving up 2 Commanders, 30 Infantry + 6x Dragoons Aux. I actually think we're giving up what we are good at to shore up a weakness we may no longer have. You can just castle up if you're really that afraid of a turn one berserker charge.

Here's the pro/cons in my mind for doing Slamguinius:
+Scout deployment
+Uses Psychic phase
+Slightly higher wounds volume
-No turn one alpha strike
-No CP recycling
-Higher starting CP cost
-Low strength wounds
-Lower body count
-Narrower castle
-A lot of "eggs in one basket"
-Not very fluffy (if you care about that sort of thing)

Geminae is part of her unit!!! It should be OK, right?

 LexOdin9 wrote:
Geminae is part of her unit!!! It should be OK, right?

Oh what. They share a rules sheet. Never mind then. Weird.

If you don't think the new ruins rules are very easily abuseable - you're a bad player.
Even if they kill 1 ranger, they can still only hit you with 1 model in melee and you can hit him with the entire unit almost

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


Going to be hard for them to pop in and still be outside of 1" from every dude you have. We use mostly GW terrain at my LGS too, and those top floors are especially tight.

Also, with Stygies and Canticles, they'd have to put a fair amount of shooting to clear a spot, which is good.

Hold on MNOP - we're not talking about walking up the ruin so you have to stay outside 1"... we're talking about charging into the ruin so they have to be within 1".

rvd1ofakind wrote:
If you don't think the new ruins rules are very easily abuseable - you're a bad player.
Even if they kill 1 ranger, they can still only hit you with 1 model in melee and you can hit him with the entire unit almost

Ok so... what unit are your rangers being charged with in this scenario? What exciting, kickass melee unit that wants to eat your rangers alive is fighting here where they do no damage and you do loads? I would say the "Bad player" is the person charging Rangers - a unit that is AWFUL in melee - with something thats even more awful.

However let's say... they attack with something good like genestealers, for the sake of argument. One genestealer is going to kill 1-3 of your rangers, and his mates can then pile in up the ruin. Your squad is now down to 2-4 rangers and they are not going to do much in return.

Look on the other side of this... I'll be the player with Transuranic Arquebus snipers up in a ruin. You can attack me with trash tier melee units and lock me up - as long as you've got 1 model in combat and the rest of the unit beneath me, I'm stuck in combat and the expensive guns are useless.

There are tactics both ends of this and although it is gameable under certain circumstances, if you're attacking with a melee unit that is good, I wouldnt be too worried about it.

You do need to shoot space to melee first though - that's the only thing.



BTW your questions on Signals from the Frontline had me laughing. Reece all "I dont even know what that question means!" lol

Reece quite often is terrible at reading questions...

And if genestealers spend 2-3 turns killing me instead of 1 AND they have to shoot 1-2 guys of a ruin - where do I sign up?
Also a warlord can sit on the top floor and deny slay the warlord because it'll be quite hard to have him as the closest target especially with high AP guns as those tend to be artillery
Either way, me and my FLGS found this rule really really stupid and will play as before - wobbly model

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Reece quite often is terrible at reading questions...

And if genestealers spend 2-3 turns killing me instead of 1 AND they have to shoot 1-2 guys of a ruin - where do I sign up?
Also a warlord can sit on the top floor and deny slay the warlord because it'll be quite hard to have him as the closest target especially with high AP guns as those tend to be artillery
Either way, me and my FLGS found this rule really really stupid and will play as before - wobbly model

Has nothing to do with wobbly model. That one is still in the game btw. You just play the way that you can attack although you cant position your models. Just like it should be played.

Personally I think that fly units are so so so good right now. coming to think about dropping in a unit of custodes bikers that are 9 inches away (diagonally) from a unit up in a building and now I can charge for what, 2 to 3 inches since fly units ignore diagonal movement? yes please

wobbly model is for a model that you can place but would fall over because of uneven ground.
Not for models hanging in air with 0.01mm of their base touching a floor.

If I'm looking at getting some kataphron destroyers, what's the best loadout for them? I know they're not amazing but they look cool and I figured it'd be fun to have a unit to paint.

From what I could tell grav/phosphor lines up well, but the plasma seems really random and risky, with the flamers being more expensive and situational.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
If I'm looking at getting some kataphron destroyers, what's the best loadout for them? I know they're not amazing but they look cool and I figured it'd be fun to have a unit to paint.

From what I could tell grav/phosphor lines up well, but the plasma seems really random and risky, with the flamers being more expensive and situational.

I've never regretted my plasma Destroyers. I've melted a 800 pts Farsight bomb with these dudes and 1 Robot on Elimination Volley with overcharged plasma. I rolled more than 12 shots though so yes it's quite random, but when it works your opponent will curse them.

Grav is nice against elite multi-wound models, I've found them perfect against Rubric because they negate their +1 to save against single damage weapons. Flamers are too costly, I keep it cheap with the phosphor even if it doesn't kill much. My Kataphrons always died to shooting anyway.

6 Dragoons infiltrated gotta be the best bad ass play of the game post faq. Set them 12" from enemies for a superb -2 and a jere cost of 400ish points. Superb lethal best of!!!

The reason why I insist on the scouts is that the turn 1 infiltration/assault tricks still exist, they are just more complicated to execute than they were. Veil, Deceiver, Infiltrate, Vangaurd, Alpha Legion, all these things can still show up on your deployment line turn 1. If you don't have scouts, these things will eat you. I used to just take the scouts and use Celestine/Commander instead of Slam/Meph, but I can't do that anymore. So if I need scouts to get to 3-0, and I need to put 2 space marine HQs in there, what do I put in those slots? I can't think of any space marine HQs that can possibly compete with Slam/Meph. Yes they want a lot of CP, but they are very good at turning that CP into damage. I basically have a choice of 3 things from this list of components:

(1) Cawl and dakkabots
(2) Slam/Meph/Scouts
(3) Celestine
(4) Guard mortar/artillery battalion

If I don't run (1), what am I doing here. I am admech. I insist on scouts based on my discussion above, so why not get the 2 best HQs I can, so I take (2). So now we get to (3) Cel versus (4) guard. Here is the thing about guard, every point of shooting there competes with my admech shooting. I brought guard because I needed something to hit something hiding out of LOS. But Slam/Meph/Cel can do that job too.

Now there is something I might run on a larf in a test game before it gets nerfed. Consider the following yet-to-be-nerfed admech soup detachment. Do I really need that second canticle?

Cawl MARS, Enginseer GRAIA [6+/6+ WLT, +1CP relic, gives access to 4+ deny strategem]
3x5 MARS rangers
1x6 MARS dakkabots
1x4 STYGIES dragoons [now I can infiltrate them without eating a detachment]

This leaves my other 2 detachments to be Celestine and Slam/Meph/Scouts. This would be the heaviest hitting imperium melee list in the game at this point. Talk about a terrifying turn 1 melee death strike! Slam covers 27" on average using the strategem, the dragoons are 9" away, and Celestine can fly 24". The funny thing about stacking all those things is that Slam is pretty much the perfect helper for dragoons because he is immune to overwatch and can let dragoons get into combat against things that would waste them in overwatch.

Manticores on eBay in preparation for Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:
The reason why I insist on the scouts is that the turn 1 infiltration/assault tricks still exist, they are just more complicated to execute than they were. Veil, Deceiver, Infiltrate, Vangaurd, Alpha Legion, all these things can still show up on your deployment line turn 1. If you don't have scouts, these things will eat you. I used to just take the scouts and use Celestine/Commander instead of Slam/Meph, but I can't do that anymore. So if I need scouts to get to 3-0, and I need to put 2 space marine HQs in there, what do I put in those slots? I can't think of any space marine HQs that can possibly compete with Slam/Meph. Yes they want a lot of CP, but they are very good at turning that CP into damage. I basically have a choice of 3 things from this list of components:

(1) Cawl and dakkabots
(2) Slam/Meph/Scouts
(3) Celestine
(4) Guard mortar/artillery battalion

If I don't run (1), what am I doing here. I am admech. I insist on scouts based on my discussion above, so why not get the 2 best HQs I can, so I take (2). So now we get to (3) Cel versus (4) guard. Here is the thing about guard, every point of shooting there competes with my admech shooting. I brought guard because I needed something to hit something hiding out of LOS. But Slam/Meph/Cel can do that job too.

Now there is something I might run on a larf in a test game before it gets nerfed. Consider the following yet-to-be-nerfed admech soup detachment. Do I really need that second canticle?

Cawl MARS, Enginseer GRAIA [6+/6+ WLT, +1CP relic, gives access to 4+ deny strategem]
3x5 MARS rangers
1x6 MARS dakkabots
1x4 STYGIES dragoons [now I can infiltrate them without eating a detachment]

This leaves my other 2 detachments to be Celestine and Slam/Meph/Scouts. This would be the heaviest hitting imperium melee list in the game at this point. Talk about a terrifying turn 1 melee death strike! Slam covers 27" on average using the strategem, the dragoons are 9" away, and Celestine can fly 24". The funny thing about stacking all those things is that Slam is pretty much the perfect helper for dragoons because he is immune to overwatch and can let dragoons get into combat against things that would waste them in overwatch.

In my meta we have officially gone over to beer and pretzels, Me and a buddy drew up a campaign. While deep strike shenanigans turn one are somewhat harder to pull off in normal games, we have a few ways that allow players to deep strike entire armies in one turn.

Wulfey wrote:

Spoiler:

The reason why I insist on the scouts is that the turn 1 infiltration/assault tricks still exist, they are just more complicated to execute than they were. Veil, Deceiver, Infiltrate, Vangaurd, Alpha Legion, all these things can still show up on your deployment line turn 1. If you don't have scouts, these things will eat you. I used to just take the scouts and use Celestine/Commander instead of Slam/Meph, but I can't do that anymore. So if I need scouts to get to 3-0, and I need to put 2 space marine HQs in there, what do I put in those slots? I can't think of any space marine HQs that can possibly compete with Slam/Meph. Yes they want a lot of CP, but they are very good at turning that CP into damage. I basically have a choice of 3 things from this list of components:

(1) Cawl and dakkabots
(2) Slam/Meph/Scouts
(3) Celestine
(4) Guard mortar/artillery battalion

If I don't run (1), what am I doing here. I am admech. I insist on scouts based on my discussion above, so why not get the 2 best HQs I can, so I take (2). So now we get to (3) Cel versus (4) guard. Here is the thing about guard, every point of shooting there competes with my admech shooting. I brought guard because I needed something to hit something hiding out of LOS. But Slam/Meph/Cel can do that job too.

Now there is something I might run on a larf in a test game before it gets nerfed. Consider the following yet-to-be-nerfed admech soup detachment. Do I really need that second canticle?

Cawl MARS, Enginseer GRAIA [6+/6+ WLT, +1CP relic, gives access to 4+ deny strategem]
3x5 MARS rangers
1x6 MARS dakkabots
1x4 STYGIES dragoons [now I can infiltrate them without eating a detachment]

This leaves my other 2 detachments to be Celestine and Slam/Meph/Scouts. This would be the heaviest hitting imperium melee list in the game at this point. Talk about a terrifying turn 1 melee death strike! Slam covers 27" on average using the strategem, the dragoons are 9" away, and Celestine can fly 24". The funny thing about stacking all those things is that Slam is pretty much the perfect helper for dragoons because he is immune to overwatch and can let dragoons get into combat against things that would waste them in overwatch.

Just so I'm sure I understand, no one in this detachment is benefitting from doctrines - instead you're taking the different forge worlds for their relics and stratagems (and Mars for the cawl bubble). Is that correct?

Only other thing is the +1 CP relic is only available to a Dominus

Wulfey wrote:
The reason why I insist on the scouts is that the turn 1 infiltration/assault tricks still exist, they are just more complicated to execute than they were. Veil, Deceiver, Infiltrate, Vangaurd, Alpha Legion, all these things can still show up on your deployment line turn 1. If you don't have scouts, these things will eat you. I used to just take the scouts and use Celestine/Commander instead of Slam/Meph, but I can't do that anymore. So if I need scouts to get to 3-0, and I need to put 2 space marine HQs in there, what do I put in those slots? I can't think of any space marine HQs that can possibly compete with Slam/Meph. Yes they want a lot of CP, but they are very good at turning that CP into damage. I basically have a choice of 3 things from this list of components:

(1) Cawl and dakkabots
(2) Slam/Meph/Scouts
(3) Celestine
(4) Guard mortar/artillery battalion

If I don't run (1), what am I doing here. I am admech. I insist on scouts based on my discussion above, so why not get the 2 best HQs I can, so I take (2). So now we get to (3) Cel versus (4) guard. Here is the thing about guard, every point of shooting there competes with my admech shooting. I brought guard because I needed something to hit something hiding out of LOS. But Slam/Meph/Cel can do that job too.

Now there is something I might run on a larf in a test game before it gets nerfed. Consider the following yet-to-be-nerfed admech soup detachment. Do I really need that second canticle?

Cawl MARS, Enginseer GRAIA [6+/6+ WLT, +1CP relic, gives access to 4+ deny strategem]
3x5 MARS rangers
1x6 MARS dakkabots
1x4 STYGIES dragoons [now I can infiltrate them without eating a detachment]

This leaves my other 2 detachments to be Celestine and Slam/Meph/Scouts. This would be the heaviest hitting imperium melee list in the game at this point. Talk about a terrifying turn 1 melee death strike! Slam covers 27" on average using the strategem, the dragoons are 9" away, and Celestine can fly 24". The funny thing about stacking all those things is that Slam is pretty much the perfect helper for dragoons because he is immune to overwatch and can let dragoons get into combat against things that would waste them in overwatch.

Don't you run into CP issues with how hungry both the BA and AdMech can be?

So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.

Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Wulfey wrote:
So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.

Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Can you free up enough points to run Celestine in a patrol? That'd give you an extra CP

 Brother Payne wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.

Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Can you free up enough points to run Celestine in a patrol? That'd give you an extra CP

You're always going to lose something either way. The point to running the Aux is to maximize your point efficiency, at the cost of 1 CP. Is 1 CP worth an army that does a bit less damage total per point spent?

Also, what will you cut? It's really hard to figure that out.

 LexOdin9 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.

Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Can you free up enough points to run Celestine in a patrol? That'd give you an extra CP

You're always going to lose something either way. The point to running the Aux is to maximize your point efficiency, at the cost of 1 CP. Is 1 CP worth an army that does a bit less damage total per point spent?

Also, what will you cut? It's really hard to figure that out.

Well if the list is running Vanguard or Rangers, Sisters can be pretty cheap blocking wounds too.

Wulfey wrote:
So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.

Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.

I don’t know much about blood angels. But with your graia idea, can you not just stick a relic on on slam for the cost of a command point and chance your luck on the enginseers 6+6+ to get them back?

That way you still get all your shiny blood angels toys and a good chance of being able to do your melee bomb shenanigans as well as nuke bots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh just been reading up on slam. All his good stuff happens if he’s the WL. Gotcha

I wouldn't run the BA captain as warlord. Yes the warlord traits (either +1D or 5+ ignore wound with re-roll 1) are good but your also guaranteeing you give up Slay the Warlord.

He is effective enough without it.

I'm looking to dust of my AdMech (skitarrii only in 7th edition).

Probably going to run 3 Onagers, multiple squads of Vanguard and Rangers, my 2 Dragoons, Dominus, maybe Cawl, and then try out some Kataphrons. What are the main builds we work around to stay semi competitive?

Mars or Stygies?

And Ruststalkers and Infiltrators look to be trash... shame because they were my favorite units. Are they ever worth running?

Wingeds here are some answers to your questions:

1) Main builds revolve around Kastelan robots. Take a squad of at least 4.
2) Why not both? Mars for Cawl+Robots, Stygies for everything else seems to be generally accepted as the best combination. I personally usually run mono-mars because it makes book keeping easier, but getting Stygies for the potential alpha strike with Clandestine Infiltration with one of the nastiest combat units in the game is definitely a thing. Especially now that most alpha strike abilities are gone, it could take an enemy by surprise.
3) Ruststalkers are indeed crap. Friendly games only. Infiltrators when used correctly can be a great asset. Here's why: You will run into the odd situation where you won't be able to use Wrath of Mars on your dakkabots. Say your opponent is hiding models, using mobility to his advantage to stay out of range/LOS of the robots, etc. The Infiltrators make for a great secondary user of Wrath of Mars. Also, when taken in a large enough squad (I like 8 personally), they become a threat than can really open up a flank or reinforce one. Taser goads in such quantities, when paired with +1 to hit in close combat stratagems, become a real threat. Your opponent will only make the mistake of ignoring them once.

They can fold to dedicated firepower, but ultimately I think Infiltrators are worth considering. Especially when people are still making use of large, cheap, weak infantry units that the space uzi (the burst pistols that Infiltrators use) can make short work of, and they can be surprisingly resilient with shroudpsalm, cover, 6+ invulnerables, etc.

 ultimentra wrote:
Wingeds here are some answers to your questions:

1) Main builds revolve around Kastelan robots. Take a squad of at least 4.
2) Why not both? Mars for Cawl+Robots, Stygies for everything else seems to be generally accepted as the best combination. I personally usually run mono-mars because it makes book keeping easier, but getting Stygies for the potential alpha strike with Clandestine Infiltration with one of the nastiest combat units in the game is definitely a thing. Especially now that most alpha strike abilities are gone, it could take an enemy by surprise.
3) Ruststalkers are indeed crap. Friendly games only. Infiltrators when used correctly can be a great asset. Here's why: You will run into the odd situation where you won't be able to use Wrath of Mars on your dakkabots. Say your opponent is hiding models, using mobility to his advantage to stay out of range/LOS of the robots, etc. The Infiltrators make for a great secondary user of Wrath of Mars. Also, when taken in a large enough squad (I like 8 personally), they become a threat than can really open up a flank or reinforce one. Taser goads in such quantities, when paired with +1 to hit in close combat stratagems, become a real threat. Your opponent will only make the mistake of ignoring them once.

They can fold to dedicated firepower, but ultimately I think Infiltrators are worth considering. Especially when people are still making use of large, cheap, weak infantry units that the space uzi (the burst pistols that Infiltrators use) can make short work of, and they can be surprisingly resilient with shroudpsalm, cover, 6+ invulnerables, etc.

Thanks bud! What role do Dragoons fill? I used to use them to pop transports, I don't think they fit that role now. They seem to be popular, I just don't know what targets they should go after in 8th.

So I went to the store today to buy another dragoon, but the idea with dragoons is to run them in a 1x4 to 1x6 STYGIES stack and infiltrate them on the first turn. Then you send them into the enemy as soon as you can and give them the +2 to hit strategem, this causes them to have exploding 4+s. They are point for point the hardest hitters in the IMPERIUM.

Wulfey wrote:
So I went to the store today to buy another dragoon, but the idea with dragoons is to run them in a 1x4 to 1x6 STYGIES stack and infiltrate them on the first turn. Then you send them into the enemy as soon as you can and give them the +2 to hit strategem, this causes them to have exploding 4+s. They are point for point the hardest hitters in the IMPERIUM.

lol Leman russes say "what's up?"

Dragoons are currently 68 points and with the strategem should generate 5.5 Str8,-1,2dam ~hits~ (6.5 if you can get the reroll 1s canticle). If I have to pick Dragoons or Russes, I would pick the dragoons every time. Russes are pretty meh if there are -1 to be hit models around. And infiltrating dragoons should be 9" away from the first rank of guardsmen on turn 1.

Maybe Suzeto can answer this, but I am not sure how infiltrating dragoons should be played. I am thinking that even if you get stuck with second turn, you should just put them 9" away from enemy models anyways. Dragoons only move 10" and if you keep them back to try and get that 12" -1 from STYGIES, then you are just going to end up needing another turn to close the distance anyways. Might as well put them all the way up and hope for the best.

Wulfey wrote:
Dragoons are currently 68 points and with the strategem should generate 5.5 Str8,-1,2dam ~hits~ (6.5 if you can get the reroll 1s canticle). If I have to pick Dragoons or Russes, I would pick the dragoons every time. Russes are pretty meh if there are -1 to be hit models around. And infiltrating dragoons should be 9" away from the first rank of guardsmen on turn 1.

Maybe Suzeto can answer this, but I am not sure how infiltrating dragoons should be played. I am thinking that even if you get stuck with second turn, you should just put them 9" away from enemy models anyways. Dragoons only move 10" and if you keep them back to try and get that 12" -1 from STYGIES, then you are just going to end up needing another turn to close the distance anyways. Might as well put them all the way up and hope for the best.

Good your giving dragoons a chance. The models themselves are so awesome and the rules quite nice too.

How many does your latest purchase take you up to then?

3 Dragoons (my loadout) with Conqueror Imperatives + reroll 1s to Hit (just to be sure...) makes:

- 13,37 wounds to GEQ (1W);
- 10,60 wounds to Skitarii/Scions (1W);
- 8,03 wounds to MEQ (1W);
- 16,06 wounds to Primaris EQ (2W);
- 10,60 wounds to TEQ (2W);
- 7,13 wounds to a Plague Marine (1W, 5+++);
- 12,83 wounds to a Rhino EQ;
- 9,63 wounds to a Leman Russ

They're among our most point-efficient units, and make a cheap threat that can't be ignored. I play them Stygies with Infiltrate when possible (or keep them close when facing deep-strike lists), when I grab first turn I place them the closest possible to their targets, and if I grab second I try to keep them at a little distance most of the time, but it depends on what my opponent plays. Everyone at my store learned that they should fear them, and so I need to play them a little safer sometimes.

 Aaranis wrote:
3 Dragoons (my loadout) with Conqueror Imperatives + reroll 1s to Hit (just to be sure...) makes:

- 13,37 wounds to GEQ (1W);
- 10,60 wounds to Skitarii/Scions (1W);
- 8,03 wounds to MEQ (1W);
- 16,06 wounds to Primaris EQ (2W);
- 10,60 wounds to TEQ (2W);
- 7,13 wounds to a Plague Marine (1W, 5+++);
- 12,83 wounds to a Rhino EQ;
- 9,63 wounds to a Leman Russ

They're among our most point-efficient units, and make a cheap threat that can't be ignored. I play them Stygies with Infiltrate when possible (or keep them close when facing deep-strike lists), when I grab first turn I place them the closest possible to their targets, and if I grab second I try to keep them at a little distance most of the time, but it depends on what my opponent plays. Everyone at my store learned that they should fear them, and so I need to play them a little safer sometimes.

What else do you take with your chicken walkers? Any reason you stick to 3 and not more?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
What else do you take with your chicken walkers? Any reason you stick to 3 and not more?

Keep in mind I don't play competitive, but more like challenging friendly games most of the time. In my latest 2000 pts list I bring a battalion of Stygies VIII + a battalion of Dark Angels, like this:

Stygies VIII:

- Dominus w/ volkite & macrostubber, Warlord, Necromechanic;
- Dominus w/ eradication ray & macrostubber;
- 2x5 Vanguards;
- 5 Rangers with 2 arquebuses and omnispex;
- 7 Rangers with 2 arc rifles;
- 3 Dragoons, taser lances;
- 10 Fulgurites;
- Datasmith;
- 2 Kastelan Robots, full phosphor;
- 1 Onager Dunecrawler w/ neutron laser & 2 cognis stubbers

Dark Angels:

- Master with jetpack w/ combi-melta & TH;
- Librarian w/ plasma pistol;
- 2x5 Intercessors;
- 5 TAC Marines;
- 2x3 Ravenwing Bikes, w/ each 1 plasma rifle and 3 chainswords;
- 3 Inceptors w/ bolters

The reason I don't use more Dragoons is my budget That's the reason I can't do 2000 pts lists as good as I wanted. I'd play 2x3 Dragoons easily if I could, they're just so good.

In my current list I'd switch one of the Vanguard squads and the TAC Marines to another Intercessor squad, these guys are great. I'd like to try this list more though, don't get many games lately.

Wulfey wrote:
Dragoons are currently 68 points and with the strategem should generate 5.5 Str8,-1,2dam ~hits~ (6.5 if you can get the reroll 1s canticle). If I have to pick Dragoons or Russes, I would pick the dragoons every time. Russes are pretty meh if there are -1 to be hit models around. And infiltrating dragoons should be 9" away from the first rank of guardsmen on turn 1.

Maybe Suzeto can answer this, but I am not sure how infiltrating dragoons should be played. I am thinking that even if you get stuck with second turn, you should just put them 9" away from enemy models anyways. Dragoons only move 10" and if you keep them back to try and get that 12" -1 from STYGIES, then you are just going to end up needing another turn to close the distance anyways. Might as well put them all the way up and hope for the best.

Problem with dragoons is they're melee units with low AP. infiltrate might help but 8th is a gunline edition. that's why mechanicus is so low tier if dragoons are the best thing you have to offer. Big guns or go home

I still think we're overthinking things. Taking Slamguinius with a Celestine Auxiliary really does feel like weakening a majority of matchups to prepare for a minority of matchups. I feel now is the time for us to adopt a dominant strategy rather than settle for the reactive one we've always had. I get that it's hard to abandon our old modes of thinking, but consider that assault just got kicked in the balls, leaving us as one of the only armies with a T1 alpha strike and easy access to great ways to convert CP into wounds. The same operative logic that drove other armies should now apply to us: hit as hard as possible on turn one, and ride the momentum of that advantage into midgame.

I think the four ingredients that are necessary are:
1) Cawlstar
2) Goondozer
3) 5/5+ Commander
4) Earthshakers/Mortars

And it is reflected in my list:

Wulfey wrote:
Maybe Suzeto can answer this, but I am not sure how infiltrating dragoons should be played. I am thinking that even if you get stuck with second turn, you should just put them 9" away from enemy models anyways. Dragoons only move 10" and if you keep them back to try and get that 12" -1 from STYGIES, then you are just going to end up needing another turn to close the distance anyways. Might as well put them all the way up and hope for the best.

You already know who goes first. If you go first, 9" always. If you go second, it depends. 12" away from heavy weapons. 9-10.9" from everything else; in fact, we have a small buffer.

More important is the formation. If you want them as a screen, you make a big horizontal chain, two inches apart. As a wall, base to base 2" + <enemyBaseSize> away from your line (so 3" for 25mm models, 4" for 50mm models, 4 and 3/8" for 60mm models, etc). UNLESS THEY FLY. Then you're cramming every unit as closely together as possible. (In case anyone doesn't know, making walls like this is called "castling" or the Cawl Wall.) If you're deep striking, you need to fit them in a 3x2 block. To be honest, this can be tough with 6x Dragoons in unfavorable terrain. 4x Dragoons can do a 2x2 block, which is much easier to rotate.

But yeah, the goal is to hit really hard or at least make the opponent worry about you hitting really hard. It's pretty much the same strategy as Guard + Blood Angels.

@Suzuteo

I locked up half of a Guard player's russ line for 2-3 turns once with a Celestine aux. Amazing unit to use for that reason alone.

Personally, I'm 100% willing to soup, but I'm really not interested in taking guard or marines. I'd rather fill those gaps with units from a different codex. Guard and Marines just aren't fun for me, I ran IG for 3-4 years in 6th and 7th and those editions ruined my perceptions and enjoyment of the IG army. As for marines, I've never liked them.

I've written a lot of soup lists that use Adeptus Ministorum (Celestine aux, Crusaders, those flail-arm dudes), Assassinorum (I've tried every one of them except for the sniper dude), and Imperial Knights (I hope the codex makes them beefy! )

The problem is scouts. From the warhammer stream they even said that the big idea with the FAQ was to make it so that all armies didn't feel like they needed to be able to deploy out of their deployment zone .... but nurglings + 40 cultists bricks still exist.

Once I tried playing with scouts I am going to have a hard time going back. And boy if there is anything infiltrating dragoons like, it is scouts to make some space on the board that nurglings can't block. And once I take scouts ... then what space marine HQs do I take.

I do think that Guard/Mech is still quite viable and makes for a good gunline. Cawl/Bots/Neutrons/Mortars/Basilisks has only gotten better in 90% of matchups. But it suffers from specific chaos matchups in a big way due to nurglings being able to claim area right on your deployment line. I see 4 flavors of chaos army at my next ~16 man tournament. If I want to write a 3-0 list, I have to plan like I will face them. With the scouts I can space the 40 man infiltrating cultist mega bomb that double shoots and has +1 to wound to outside of rapid fire range. I can also push back the list I know that my buddy will be running that has 5 chaos lords infiltrating up the board on steeds of slaneesh that allow for advancing and charging with 12" movement. I can expect to see him at the top table if I get there.

EDIT: if you are fast enough to finish your games and use the warhammer dice app for the robot rolling, the basic Cawl/Bots/Neutrons/Mortars/Basilisks list is guaranteed a 2-1 list. It outshoots everything that isn't 9 basilisks and with the new anti-deepstrike rules faces fewer auto lose matchups. MARS battalion, CADIA battalion, and STYGIES dragoon auxiliary is going minimum 2-1 every damn time. The list practically plays itself. EDIT2: or STYGIES battalion, MARS spearhead, CADIA battalion

EDIT3:
STYGIES aux - 1x5 dragoons [extra dragoon over mortar, AUX trades infantry durability and 2CP to avoid 47 point engi tax]
MARS battalion - Cawl, Engi, 1x6 van, 2x6 ranger, 1x5 dakkabot, 2x1 neutron [more mans here instead of mortar]
CADIA battalion - 2x com, 3x9 mortarguard, 1x2 basilisk

 LexOdin9 wrote:
@Suzuteo

I locked up half of a Guard player's russ line for 2-3 turns once with a Celestine aux. Amazing unit to use for that reason alone.

Personally, I'm 100% willing to soup, but I'm really not interested in taking guard or marines. I'd rather fill those gaps with units from a different codex. Guard and Marines just aren't fun for me, I ran IG for 3-4 years in 6th and 7th and those editions ruined my perceptions and enjoyment of the IG army. As for marines, I've never liked them.

I've written a lot of soup lists that use Adeptus Ministorum (Celestine aux, Crusaders, those flail-arm dudes), Assassinorum (I've tried every one of them except for the sniper dude), and Imperial Knights (I hope the codex makes them beefy! )

Celestine + Dominion Squads is actually a bit more consistent than Scouts, since you can move them up to 1" away from the enemy scout line.

Wulfey wrote:
The problem is scouts. From the warhammer stream they even said that the big idea with the FAQ was to make it so that all armies didn't feel like they needed to be able to deploy out of their deployment zone .... but nurglings + 40 cultists bricks still exist.

Once I tried playing with scouts I am going to have a hard time going back. And boy if there is anything infiltrating dragoons like, it is scouts to make some space on the board that nurglings can't block. And once I take scouts ... then what space marine HQs do I take.

I do think that Guard/Mech is still quite viable and makes for a good gunline. Cawl/Bots/Neutrons/Mortars/Basilisks has only gotten better in 90% of matchups. But it suffers from specific chaos matchups in a big way due to nurglings being able to claim area right on your deployment line. I see 4 flavors of chaos army at my next ~16 man tournament. If I want to write a 3-0 list, I have to plan like I will face them. With the scouts I can space the 40 man infiltrating cultist mega bomb that double shoots and has +1 to wound to outside of rapid fire range. I can also push back the list I know that my buddy will be running that has 5 chaos lords infiltrating up the board on steeds of slaneesh that allow for advancing and charging with 12" movement. I can expect to see him at the top table if I get there.

EDIT: if you are fast enough to finish your games and use the warhammer dice app for the robot rolling, the basic Cawl/Bots/Neutrons/Mortars/Basilisks list is guaranteed a 2-1 list. It outshoots everything that isn't 9 basilisks and with the new anti-deepstrike rules faces fewer auto lose matchups. MARS battalion, CADIA battalion, and STYGIES dragoon auxiliary is going minimum 2-1 every damn time. The list practically plays itself. EDIT2: or STYGIES battalion, MARS spearhead, CADIA battalion

EDIT3:
STYGIES aux - 1x5 dragoons [extra dragoon over mortar, AUX trades infantry durability and 2CP to avoid 47 point engi tax]
MARS battalion - Cawl, Engi, 1x6 van, 2x6 ranger, 1x5 dakkabot, 2x1 neutron [more mans here instead of mortar]
CADIA battalion - 2x com, 3x9 mortarguard, 1x2 basilisk

I actually cannot see Chaos easily overcoming a well-deployed AdMech/Guard castle. Unless Berserkers somehow gain Fly, they will have to get past the infantry screen. Dragoons open up transports like tin cans (and don't forget to make them go BOOM), and Robots still chew up MEQs like nothing else.

Cultists don't infiltrate, they outflank. Tide of Traitors allows them to deploy on the first turn 6" from a table edge and 9" from any models. In any case, you can use MSU Skitarii to screen them out of your deployment zone by deploying them on your flanks.

Chaos Lords on Steeds? I haven't seen that yet. I thought they lost a lot of their allure this edition.

The problem is the FORWARD OPERATIVES strategem for alpha legion. It is a clone of the SYGIES strategem, but can be applied to a 40 cultist brick that can get veterans of the long war for +1 to wound. Also, they can infiltrate all kinds of melee threats in place of cultists and can freely use veil of time to send jumppack chaos lords over screens. If this combo didn't exist, I wouldn't be insisting on scouts. I know my buddy is bringing a list to maximize this play, so I have to have an answer for it.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
What else do you take with your chicken walkers? Any reason you stick to 3 and not more?

Keep in mind I don't play competitive, but more like challenging friendly games most of the time. In my latest 2000 pts list I bring a battalion of Stygies VIII + a battalion of Dark Angels, like this:

Stygies VIII:

- Dominus w/ volkite & macrostubber, Warlord, Necromechanic;
- Dominus w/ eradication ray & macrostubber;
- 2x5 Vanguards;
- 5 Rangers with 2 arquebuses and omnispex;
- 7 Rangers with 2 arc rifles;
- 3 Dragoons, taser lances;
- 10 Fulgurites;
- Datasmith;
- 2 Kastelan Robots, full phosphor;
- 1 Onager Dunecrawler w/ neutron laser & 2 cognis stubbers

Dark Angels:

- Master with jetpack w/ combi-melta & TH;
- Librarian w/ plasma pistol;
- 2x5 Intercessors;
- 5 TAC Marines;
- 2x3 Ravenwing Bikes, w/ each 1 plasma rifle and 3 chainswords;
- 3 Inceptors w/ bolters

The reason I don't use more Dragoons is my budget That's the reason I can't do 2000 pts lists as good as I wanted. I'd play 2x3 Dragoons easily if I could, they're just so good.

In my current list I'd switch one of the Vanguard squads and the TAC Marines to another Intercessor squad, these guys are great. I'd like to try this list more though, don't get many games lately.

Oh I hear you on the budget. I’m in the same boat trying to save for more

Wulfey wrote:
The problem is the FORWARD OPERATIVES strategem for alpha legion. It is a clone of the SYGIES strategem, but can be applied to a 40 cultist brick that can get veterans of the long war for +1 to wound. Also, they can infiltrate all kinds of melee threats in place of cultists and can freely use veil of time to send jumppack chaos lords over screens. If this combo didn't exist, I wouldn't be insisting on scouts. I know my buddy is bringing a list to maximize this play, so I have to have an answer for it.

Ah, I see. But I don't see why we can't just block the blob of 40 Cultists. I mean, these guys aren't Blood Angels. They are slow, foot-slogging ifantry. And the combo is to Infiltrate, Warp Time, Fury of Khorne + Veterans of the Long War, then wreck tanks with clubs, right? (I guess they can also use Flamers...?)

If they bring 3x jump pack Chaos Lords, castle up.

Suzuteo wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The problem is the FORWARD OPERATIVES strategem for alpha legion. It is a clone of the SYGIES strategem, but can be applied to a 40 cultist brick that can get veterans of the long war for +1 to wound. Also, they can infiltrate all kinds of melee threats in place of cultists and can freely use veil of time to send jumppack chaos lords over screens. If this combo didn't exist, I wouldn't be insisting on scouts. I know my buddy is bringing a list to maximize this play, so I have to have an answer for it.

Ah, I see. But I don't see why we can't just block the blob of 40 Cultists. I mean, these guys aren't Blood Angels. They are slow, foot-slogging ifantry. And the combo is to Infiltrate, Warp Time, Fury of Khorne + Veterans of the Long War, then wreck tanks with clubs, right? (I guess they can also use Flamers...?)

If they bring 3x jump pack Chaos Lords, castle up.

So what your saying for a solution is “More daka” I like it

 Ideasweasel wrote:
So what your saying for a solution is “More daka” I like it

Haha. Haven’t seen that movie in years.

The only good bug is a dead bug!

EDIT: something else to consider, the FAQ on pistols makes 10 strong MARS infiltrators bombs a very attractive way to get rid of some pesky assault units in your lines. Pistols can now shoot at enemies in combat with other units, so long as the enemies are the closest model. So that means that whatever is tying up my robots can be shot by infiltrators.

Wulfey posted this back a few pages ago. I can't find anything in the FAQ to support this.

Can someone quote the errata that supposedly allows you to do this?

Wulfey wrote:
The problem is the FORWARD OPERATIVES strategem for alpha legion. It is a clone of the SYGIES strategem, but can be applied to a 40 cultist brick that can get veterans of the long war for +1 to wound. Also, they can infiltrate all kinds of melee threats in place of cultists and can freely use veil of time to send jumppack chaos lords over screens. If this combo didn't exist, I wouldn't be insisting on scouts. I know my buddy is bringing a list to maximize this play, so I have to have an answer for it.

How are cultists getting "veterans of the long war"? I thought a unit needed to be Marines in order to get that.

 LexOdin9 wrote:

EDIT: something else to consider, the FAQ on pistols makes 10 strong MARS infiltrators bombs a very attractive way to get rid of some pesky assault units in your lines. Pistols can now shoot at enemies in combat with other units, so long as the enemies are the closest model. So that means that whatever is tying up my robots can be shot by infiltrators.

Wulfey posted this back a few pages ago. I can't find anything in the FAQ to support this.

Can someone quote the errata that supposedly allows you to do this?

Check the new pistols answer. I dont think the infiltrators themselves have to be in combat, but the closest enemy unit can be.

https://imgur.com/Yv4f9hV

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

Suzuteo wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The problem is the FORWARD OPERATIVES strategem for alpha legion. It is a clone of the SYGIES strategem, but can be applied to a 40 cultist brick that can get veterans of the long war for +1 to wound. Also, they can infiltrate all kinds of melee threats in place of cultists and can freely use veil of time to send jumppack chaos lords over screens. If this combo didn't exist, I wouldn't be insisting on scouts. I know my buddy is bringing a list to maximize this play, so I have to have an answer for it.

Ah, I see. But I don't see why we can't just block the blob of 40 Cultists. I mean, these guys aren't Blood Angels. They are slow, foot-slogging ifantry. And the combo is to Infiltrate, Warp Time, Fury of Khorne + Veterans of the Long War, then wreck tanks with clubs, right? (I guess they can also use Flamers...?)

If they bring 3x jump pack Chaos Lords, castle up.

The issue isn't killing Cultists. We have cost efficient means to do that.

The issue is that they're in your face, which means they actually need to be taken care of. Forgetting other Strategems that might increase their damage output, it's all about the potential tarpitting they can do.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The problem is the FORWARD OPERATIVES strategem for alpha legion. It is a clone of the SYGIES strategem, but can be applied to a 40 cultist brick that can get veterans of the long war for +1 to wound. Also, they can infiltrate all kinds of melee threats in place of cultists and can freely use veil of time to send jumppack chaos lords over screens. If this combo didn't exist, I wouldn't be insisting on scouts. I know my buddy is bringing a list to maximize this play, so I have to have an answer for it.

How are cultists getting "veterans of the long war"? I thought a unit needed to be Marines in order to get that.

I believe Cultists have the <Legion> rule which is the requirement.

Here is my attempt to a pure Ad mech list for semi competitive games, what do you think about it?

Mars detachment:

- Cawl
- 4 Dakkabots
- Onager icarus
- Onager neutron

Stygies VIII detachment:

- TPE
- TPE
- 3x5 rangers (3 electro rifles)
- 4 Dragoons (infiltrated)

Super heavy detachment:

- IK crusader: Thermal canon, avenger, stormspear

2000 pts - 9PC

 ultimentra wrote:
Wingeds here are some answers to your questions:

They can fold to dedicated firepower, but ultimately I think Infiltrators are worth considering. Especially when people are still making use of large, cheap, weak infantry units that the space uzi (the burst pistols that Infiltrators use) can make short work of, and they can be surprisingly resilient with shroudpsalm, cover, 6+ invulnerables, etc.

eeehm?! shroudpsalm and cover stack?

Wulfey wrote:

 LexOdin9 wrote:

EDIT: something else to consider, the FAQ on pistols makes 10 strong MARS infiltrators bombs a very attractive way to get rid of some pesky assault units in your lines. Pistols can now shoot at enemies in combat with other units, so long as the enemies are the closest model. So that means that whatever is tying up my robots can be shot by infiltrators.

Wulfey posted this back a few pages ago. I can't find anything in the FAQ to support this.

Can someone quote the errata that supposedly allows you to do this?

Check the new pistols answer. I dont think the infiltrators themselves have to be in combat, but the closest enemy unit can be.

https://imgur.com/Yv4f9hV

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

The question originally had to do with a unit with pistols that are in close combat. I think that you are gonna have a tough time selling this one to your opponent or a TO in a tournament. I'd be careful with building lists with this intention in mind.

 LexOdin9 wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

 LexOdin9 wrote:

EDIT: something else to consider, the FAQ on pistols makes 10 strong MARS infiltrators bombs a very attractive way to get rid of some pesky assault units in your lines. Pistols can now shoot at enemies in combat with other units, so long as the enemies are the closest model. So that means that whatever is tying up my robots can be shot by infiltrators.

Wulfey posted this back a few pages ago. I can't find anything in the FAQ to support this.

Can someone quote the errata that supposedly allows you to do this?

Check the new pistols answer. I dont think the infiltrators themselves have to be in combat, but the closest enemy unit can be.

https://imgur.com/Yv4f9hV

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

The question originally had to do with a unit with pistols that are in close combat. I think that you are gonna have a tough time selling this one to your opponent or a TO in a tournament. I'd be careful with building lists with this intention in mind.

I think there's a decent case for it given the phrase in brackets at the end of the response. I agree though, it would be much clearer if the question related to pistol units generally rather those in combat

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue isn't killing Cultists. We have cost efficient means to do that.

The issue is that they're in your face, which means they actually need to be taken care of. Forgetting other Strategems that might increase their damage output, it's all about the potential tarpitting they can do.

Fall back and wipe them off the board, as usual? The big worry was stuff like Battlesuits and Assault Marines jumping past the screen and meleeing our Robots. That's mostly gone now. Chaos Lords seem to be the only thing left, and even they cannot overcome 20+ infantry; we'd be tar-pitting them.

I honestly don't see as much value for Scouts. They fulfill a function that has been superceded by new rules; they gave everyone respite from turn one deep strike. Now, since units come in turn two, your opponent has plenty of time to wipe your Scouts. So Big FAQ essentially gave everyone Scouts against everything but Infiltrate, and Blood Angels and Tau Battlesuits don't have an Infiltrate; their Stealth suits actually have a Scout deployment haha.

Alright, nvm the whole pistols shooting into combat thing. It is conditioned on the shooting unit having 1+ model within 1" of an enemy.

On a side note, I think people really underestimate the importance of having more bodies or larger bases, especially in screens. Having a blob of max-coherency Scouts in the middle of nowhere is fine. But your 25mm screen units should be base-to-base lines to prevent getting pinned in consolidation and not being able to fall back. Remember, for round bases, it only takes three models to pin a non-flying model in place. (A neat trick for Dragoons is actually to box in one or two models to gain invulnerability for a round.)

Suzuteo wrote:
On a side note, I think people really underestimate the importance of having more bodies or larger bases, especially in screens. Having a blob of max-coherency Scouts in the middle of nowhere is fine. But your 25mm screen units should be base-to-base lines to prevent getting pinned in consolidation and not being able to fall back. Remember, for round bases, it only takes three models to pin a non-flying model in place. (A neat trick for Dragoons is actually to box in one or two models to gain invulnerability for a round.)

Would you care to elaborate please ? I don't understand what you're saying with the boxing to gain invulnerability.

So, I was speculating. If we ever get a transport the likes of a Rhino, I believe Ryza is going to be really interesting. Let's say we can fit 10 models inside the transport, you could fit 10 Fulgurites that will reroll their 1s to Wound (and so increase the chance for mortal wounds), or 9 of them and a Dominus with the Prime Hermeticon trait and a CC relic could be great. Or why not use 3 of those transports close to each other and deliver 29 Fulgurites that reroll failed hits and 1s to Wound ?

Also, Kataphron Destroyers with plasma get even better, because their stratagem is pretty strong. You can protect them from getting shot at for a turn by hiding them in a bunker first. Keep a minimum of 2 Robots close by, pop Elimination Volley + Plasma Specialists on overcharge, and you have minimum 3d6 S8 AP-3 D3 shots, shot at 3+, rerolling 1s to Hit (because you keep a Dominus nearby ofc) and having +1 to Wound. You now wound everything under T8 on 2s with 3D each shot. Here, an anti-Custodes weapon. Or anti-everything really.

 Aaranis wrote:
Would you care to elaborate please ? I don't understand what you're saying with the boxing to gain invulnerability.

If you trap one model, the unit cannot fall back, so your Dragoons cannot be shot at.

When you finally get some free time to play 40k Suzuteo I would love to see a batrep or summary of your game.

Same goes for all of you. I enjoy reading them and occasionally pick up a thing or two

Suzuteo wrote:
On a side note, I think people really underestimate the importance of having more bodies or larger bases, especially in screens. Having a blob of max-coherency Scouts in the middle of nowhere is fine. But your 25mm screen units should be base-to-base lines to prevent getting pinned in consolidation and not being able to fall back. Remember, for round bases, it only takes three models to pin a non-flying model in place. (A neat trick for Dragoons is actually to box in one or two models to gain invulnerability for a round.)

you need a double line of b2b models to avoid being surrounded. A single file is just as easily surrounded by 3 models since round bases leave a small indentation.

 Ordana wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
On a side note, I think people really underestimate the importance of having more bodies or larger bases, especially in screens. Having a blob of max-coherency Scouts in the middle of nowhere is fine. But your 25mm screen units should be base-to-base lines to prevent getting pinned in consolidation and not being able to fall back. Remember, for round bases, it only takes three models to pin a non-flying model in place. (A neat trick for Dragoons is actually to box in one or two models to gain invulnerability for a round.)

you need a double line of b2b models to avoid being surrounded. A single file is just as easily surrounded by 3 models since round bases leave a small indentation.

Yeah. Multiple lines are necessary. Don't just spread your guys out everywhere with max 2" coherency. Keep everything base to base (especially MSUs with small frontage) or less than 25mm apart (25mm being measured diagonally between two different lines, not horizontally within the same line). Gunlines have to be literal lines (in a "bowed" shape) or they will be pushed through via multiple pile-in and consolidation moves (combat sliding). Another thing you can do is make interlocking circles of models less than 25mm apart. Having a counter charger, such as Dragoons, can also be helpful. It was actually a mainstay during Index days to run nothing but Dragoons, as Skitarii were overpriced like crazy before.

Fact is, assault armies are one of our biggest threats. Learn their tricks and don't fall for them.

One more thing (man, this is like my fifth edit or something): You should not take casualties from the edges of your line; this will make it easier for them to slide past you. Take it from the center so it is harder to surround; they can pile into the next line, but that's fine. You need to be able to "retract" the line backward and inward.

HeavenLord wrote:
Here is my attempt to a pure Ad mech list for semi competitive games, what do you think about it?

Mars detachment:

- Cawl
- 4 Dakkabots
- Onager icarus
- Onager neutron

Stygies VIII detachment:

- TPE
- TPE
- 3x5 rangers (3 electro rifles)
- 4 Dragoons (infiltrated)

Super heavy detachment:

- IK crusader: Thermal canon, avenger, stormspear

2000 pts - 9PC

For pickup games in your local FLGS I’m sure this will do fine. Looks quite a fun list to play. I run a knight in most of my lists however and it does tend to be more often than not the cause of my undoing. As long as your not playing a super evil list you will probably have a fun game regardless. And if your bread is buttered to a more competitive taste then I would glance back at some of the more tournament refined lists that have been posted of late. GL

 Ideasweasel wrote:

HeavenLord wrote:
Here is my attempt to a pure Ad mech list for semi competitive games, what do you think about it?

Mars detachment:

- Cawl
- 4 Dakkabots
- Onager icarus
- Onager neutron

Stygies VIII detachment:

- TPE
- TPE
- 3x5 rangers (3 electro rifles)
- 4 Dragoons (infiltrated)

Super heavy detachment:

- IK crusader: Thermal canon, avenger, stormspear

2000 pts - 9PC

For pickup games in your local FLGS I’m sure this will do fine. Looks quite a fun list to play. I run a knight in most of my lists however and it does tend to be more often than not the cause of my undoing. As long as your not playing a super evil list you will probably have a fun game regardless. And if your bread is buttered to a more competitive taste then I would glance back at some of the more tournament refined lists that have been posted of late. GL

Same thoughts. Looks fun when not in a hyper-competitive environment and is still pretty darn trim. Crusader was the best choice and that is the optimal set-up, imo. Hopefully Knights get a buff soon to help you out.

I also hope that they introduce improvements to the standard Knights. AdMech is really good at supporting a singleton Knight (Master of Machines + Tech-Adept, Knight of the Cog, Machine Spirit Resurgent, Rotate Ion Shields), but 500+ points is a wound magnet.

I see a problem: we don't get enough out of our knights per point spent

Solution A: Make knights more resilient to both shooting and melee. More durability can justify the point cost.

Solution B: Make knights cheaper. A cheaper cost can justify the durability and damage they inflict per turn.

Solution C: Increase their damage output. Glass cannon approach. This is finicky but might be the easiest way to still make Knights fair. Increasing their durability might be a bit too heavy of an approach.

The knight melee weapons need to be made near-free, or the stomp attacks need to be made as an 'in-addition' attack similar to Cawl's tentacles. That the sword costs 15 points less than the meltagunCannon, but you will never use the sword, forces you to always take crusaders.

Wulfey wrote:
The knight melee weapons need to be made near-free, or the stomp attacks need to be made as an 'in-addition' attack similar to Cawl's tentacles. That the sword costs 15 points less than the meltagunCannon, but you will never use the sword, forces you to always take crusaders.

Bingo. Zero reason to take any other variant beyond cost. Making the chainsword free even might not sway me, since shooting is king.

 LexOdin9 wrote:
I see a problem: we don't get enough out of our knights per point spent

Solution A: Make knights more resilient to both shooting and melee. More durability can justify the point cost.

Solution B: Make knights cheaper. A cheaper cost can justify the durability and damage they inflict per turn.

Solution C: Increase their damage output. Glass cannon approach. This is finicky but might be the easiest way to still make Knights fair. Increasing their durability might be a bit too heavy of an approach.

I agree that those are the solutions but I really hope it isn't solution C it ends up being (assuming they even get better) Things die easy enough in 8th and I don't really like the idea of the knight either being amazing on turn one or dead, depending on who goes first. Give it a 2+ save, some extra wounds, make the chassi cheaper.

As for close combat, I sort of hope that the CC weapons get a major discount along with the fact that the big knights get 6 attacks and the feet double their attacks, rather than triple. And an invuln in close combat, obviously

the big knights only get 4 attacks don't they?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The knight melee weapons need to be made near-free, or the stomp attacks need to be made as an 'in-addition' attack similar to Cawl's tentacles. That the sword costs 15 points less than the meltagunCannon, but you will never use the sword, forces you to always take crusaders.

Bingo. Zero reason to take any other variant beyond cost. Making the chainsword free even might not sway me, since shooting is king.

Or something like: "you make 2 additional attacks with this weapon" added to the melee weapon options.

Right now from what I've seen on the tables at my LGS Knights are good to send in the middle of the opposing army in the hopes it deals some damage before exploding magnificently.

Just adding a free ability to the Knights will change their points cost, and having a melee weapon as a trigger could shift the tendency away from Crusaders. Though do think a shift from weapons to core would help here too - especially as we're not really paying for a generic knight. Two ranged weapons could easily come at a premium.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The knight melee weapons need to be made near-free, or the stomp attacks need to be made as an 'in-addition' attack similar to Cawl's tentacles. That the sword costs 15 points less than the meltagunCannon, but you will never use the sword, forces you to always take crusaders.

Bingo. Zero reason to take any other variant beyond cost. Making the chainsword free even might not sway me, since shooting is king.

As a person who works in game design, the easiest solution here is to nerf Stomp.

But yeah, I think Knights need another defensive stratagem or a bodyguard unit. (Cough. Secutarii. Cough.)

Suzuteo wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The knight melee weapons need to be made near-free, or the stomp attacks need to be made as an 'in-addition' attack similar to Cawl's tentacles. That the sword costs 15 points less than the meltagunCannon, but you will never use the sword, forces you to always take crusaders.

Bingo. Zero reason to take any other variant beyond cost. Making the chainsword free even might not sway me, since shooting is king.

As a person who works in game design, the easiest solution here is to nerf Stomp.

But yeah, I think Knights need another defensive stratagem or a bodyguard unit. (Cough. Secutarii. Cough.)

Forgeworld units will never be the balancing tool used to make a GW unit stronger.

But it would be pretty cool if the Secutarii could tank hits for an IK on a 2+.

They had this ability in 7E to Smoke Launcher an allied Super-Heavy instead of shooting. That was useful. (Cawlstar with 20 Secutarii + Knight Crusader in WarCon was pretty hot.)

It also depends on where they slot in the new Castellan, if they lower the cost of the other knights and the Castellan basically replaces the decked-out crusader at 600 points it could actually be useful if you get first turn and a bit scary for the opponent to fire at even if they get turn one because of machine spirit resurgence and rotate ion shields and the fact that they're probably more durable than the other big knights.

If the Castellan is 600 points and they lower the kitted crusader to like 475 and scale the other accordingly I can actually see some people taking knights again, assuming they get some other fixes, but if they remain unchanged in points and the armigers stay at 240 and the castellan is 800-ish then fun games and looking cool in the cabinet it is.

I just hope that it's obvious by the launch of the Castellan if it's one of those kits that will be expanded in a few months so it feels like a bit of a rip to buy this one. I'll be buying one for the looks of it but the peswsimist in me thinks it'll rarely see the table.

Similary to what someone said before, increase Attacks to 5 and nerf the stomp to only *2 hit rolls would be the easiest way to balance the close combat capabilities of the knights. 5 attacks with sword or gauntlet or 10 stomps. With 5 attacks and only 10 with stomp take a c/c weapon and actually use it it's an interesting option.

Nowaways I'm playing an styrix warlord just because it have invulnerable save during combat phase. I'ts also the warlord with 6+++ and relic sword. Rotating ion shields all turns it's not half bad as a dristraccion carnifex with T8 and 3++(4++ in c/c)/6+++. But his damage output sucks so bad.

Zorninsson wrote:
Similary to what someone said before, increase Attacks to 5 and nerf the stomp to only *2 hit rolls would be the easiest way to balance the close combat capabilities of the knights. 5 attacks with sword or gauntlet or 10 stomps. With 5 attacks and only 10 with stomp take a c/c weapon and actually use it it's an interesting option.

Nowaways I'm playing an styrix warlord just because it have invulnerable save during combat phase. I'ts also the warlord with 6+++ and relic sword. Rotating ion shields all turns it's not half bad as a dristraccion carnifex with T8 and 3++(4++ in c/c)/6+++. But his damage output sucks so bad.

What else are you bringing with it? Admech or backed up by more knights? (Currently)

They should let us bring double Avenger Knights. I don't know why Renegades get all the cool toys. =(

Suzuteo wrote:
They should let us bring double Avenger Knights. I don't know why Renegades get all the cool toys. =(

It looks cool I guess, but personally I don't mind chaos getting a different flavour of knights. There doesn't have to be a 100% parity in my opinion. More than that, the avenger gatling cannon is quite similar in stats to heavy phosphor blasters, so that's really the weapon I'm least interested in stats-wise. (It's a lot cooler looking than the PVC pipe rapid fire battlecannon though)

I just love the look of the wardens fist. Shame the rules are pants

Suzuteo wrote:

Bingo. Zero reason to take any other variant beyond cost. Making the chainsword free even might not sway me, since shooting is king.

As a person who works in game design, the easiest solution here is to nerf Stomp.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755519.page

Thread for knights tactica

Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

I like your list, but am concerned that it may have trouble with gunlines that can keep you from getting into close combat with important targets. Overwatch Tau can punish this list pretty hard.

Celestine can circumvent multiple layers of wrapping by flying 24", but the BLANGELS cannot. In addition, do you think that you can really extract the point value out of the cannonesses? What targets are they intended to go after?

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

What exactly is your issue with making Cawlstar work? It is point-and-click and our answer to a vast array of problems.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

What exactly is your issue with making Cawlstar work? It is point-and-click and our answer to a vast array of problems.

It requires a huge investment and is effectively all in on a single strategy. If my opponent brings too much T7 that shoots, I can't kill it all. If my opponent brings some super sneaky wrap around fast melee stuff I can't screen out, then I lose. If there is too much terrain and I can't get LOS, I am boned. Don't get me wrong, I have been running it for a year. But when you get countered you are countered hard. 5 robots performed catastrophically versus Tau stormsurges, even shooting first, due to the storm surges being able to spam the mortal wound missiles that bypass my defenses (I forgot about the 5+ ignore mortal wound strategem). I do like how the list is point and click and has a very short movement phase. And running it with the warhammer dice app lets me finish games 30 minutes early. Post FAQ it is super hard to get that balance between firepower, counter melee, non-LOS, and screening right. If I just gave up on scouts xor gave up on celestine I think then the cawlstar would have enough CP to work, but ... hrm ... so indecisive ...

EDIT: wait .. .I think I found how to save the cawlstar. The problem was not having enough CP. This frees up 2 more CP using the plasma-cannonesses. Hmm this list looks very easy to play.

BLANGELS - 2x slam captain, 3x5 scouts
MARS - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x5 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons
SISTERS - Celestine, 2x plasmacannonnesses

It might be that you are just doing too much with your list? I dunno, haven't played in a while and don't dabble in Soup.

So, is agripinaa any worth trying? I have my skitarii painted in ryza colours, but I kinda like the overwatch bonus agripinaa has. And my guard army would like them as an addittion to their ranks.

Wulfey wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

What exactly is your issue with making Cawlstar work? It is point-and-click and our answer to a vast array of problems.

It requires a huge investment and is effectively all in on a single strategy. If my opponent brings too much T7 that shoots, I can't kill it all. If my opponent brings some super sneaky wrap around fast melee stuff I can't screen out, then I lose. If there is too much terrain and I can't get LOS, I am boned. Don't get me wrong, I have been running it for a year. But when you get countered you are countered hard. 5 robots performed catastrophically versus Tau stormsurges, even shooting first, due to the storm surges being able to spam the mortal wound missiles that bypass my defenses (I forgot about the 5+ ignore mortal wound strategem). I do like how the list is point and click and has a very short movement phase. And running it with the warhammer dice app lets me finish games 30 minutes early. Post FAQ it is super hard to get that balance between firepower, counter melee, non-LOS, and screening right. If I just gave up on scouts xor gave up on celestine I think then the cawlstar would have enough CP to work, but ... hrm ... so indecisive ...

EDIT: wait .. .I think I found how to save the cawlstar. The problem was not having enough CP. This frees up 2 more CP using the plasma-cannonesses. Hmm this list looks very easy to play.

BLANGELS - 2x slam captain, 3x5 scouts
MARS - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x5 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons
SISTERS - Celestine, 2x plasmacannonnesses

Who’s your warlord in the above scenario? You using one of the slams or going enginseer
For CP gain?

So in ITC I can actually choose that at the start of the game. I am not sure which one is the way to go. I need to run some simulations in node. I need to ask the blood angels guys if it worth it to give him a WLT. Artisan of war is pretty cool, takes his hammer up to 4 damage. If I see a baneblade he is my WL for sure. If I don't have the primest of smash targets, go enginseer and the raiment of the technomarty and 6+/6+. I could even have Celestine be WL for 6+++ and give a relic sword to one of the girls if I see an enemy that I know is coming into my lines. This is kind of why I almost want to run 2 smash captains just so I have the option to possibly go double BLANGELS relics and have two smashers who take all my CP. Meph I am not super sold on, but he takes less CP to get working than a smash captain.

Wulfey wrote:
... go enginseer and the raiment of the technomarty ...

depiction of the raiment of the technomarty, 41.440 Colorized

Wulfey wrote:
If I just gave up on scouts xor gave up on celestine I think then the cawlstar would have enough CP to work, but ... hrm ... so indecisive ...

EDIT: wait .. .I think I found how to save the cawlstar. The problem was not having enough CP. This frees up 2 more CP using the plasma-cannonesses. Hmm this list looks very easy to play.

BLANGELS - 2x slam captain, 3x5 scouts
MARS - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x5 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons
SISTERS - Celestine, 2x plasmacannonnesses

I agree that this is the problem. That is why I am still anchored to the 5+/5+ Commander with two Battalions. You need to forego Scouts and Celestine for the Cawlstar.

My worries for your list are that you don't have enough screening bodies in general now. Remember that not needing to worry about T1 charge means we need to worry about T2 charge. Durability and/or body count matter more for screens now.

I do disagree with your statement on hard counters though. I think Kastelans can handle even T7s, given enough CP. You have also got Dragoons, which open up T7s like tin cans, and Neutron Crawlers, which are inconsistent at times, but can do spectacular kills. Furthermore, there are extremes in every meta. Indeed, every top 8 army is an exercise in extremes as a dominant strategy (every edition is led by a few non-interactive, all-in strategies). 200 zombies with their horde abuse, Dark Reaper spam for their shooting alpha abuse, Slamguinius for the T1 charge abuse, Flyrant spam because of course something that is good at everything can also fly, etc. But a lot of those strategies are gone, and the FAQ has done a reasonable job making balanced armies the norm. Plus, for the first time ever, we can adopt a dominant strategy. How cool is that?

 Spreelock wrote:
So, is agripinaa any worth trying? I have my skitarii painted in ryza colours, but I kinda like the overwatch bonus agripinaa has. And my guard army would like them as an addittion to their ranks.

Most of the forge world dogma rules are just not good, sadly.

 LexOdin9 wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
... go enginseer and the raiment of the technomarty ...

depiction of the raiment of the technomarty, 41.440 Colorized

Spoiler:

Debate: What is the best AdMech relic? Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land or Raiment of the Technomartyrs?

 ph34r wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
So, is agripinaa any worth trying? I have my skitarii painted in ryza colours, but I kinda like the overwatch bonus agripinaa has. And my guard army would like them as an addittion to their ranks.

Most of the forge world dogma rules are just not good, sadly.

I theoretically LOVE Graia for a strong back field and a solid warlord trait. Charge my Rangers? Have fun being shot by the ones not dead after being charged!

Ultimately I want to do Deep Strike Lucius Vanguard, Graia Rangers, and Stygies Crawlers for a whole list. I haven't put together a list for this army in VERY long though.

Well, at first glance, the codex simply does not offer any no-brainer choices for anything (dogmas/relics). And canticles are simply bonus, not something you can build your list on (compared to drukhari combat drugs). After serious brain storming, agripinaa would perform better than ryza (imo).

 Spreelock wrote:
Well, at first glance, the codex simply does not offer any no-brainer choices for anything (dogmas/relics). And canticles are simply bonus, not something you can build your list on (compared to drukhari combat drugs). After serious brain storming, agripinaa would perform better than ryza (imo).

I think that's mostly a fact, actually. Overwatch bonus is good even for our melee units as some of them have a surprising amount of shots, and sometimes opponents will like to charge you first just to deny any bonus you might get.

Metallica is objectively the single worst thing ever in the game though; yes I'm talking about all of 8th edition. The trait is super specific, the Relic might be the single worst in the game due to availability, the Warlord Trait is meh and mostly comparable to Graia (though they do have pros and cons to each), and the Strategem is pretty tame.

Suzuteo wrote:

 LexOdin9 wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
... go enginseer and the raiment of the technomarty ...

depiction of the raiment of the technomarty, 41.440 Colorized

Spoiler:

Debate: What is the best AdMech relic? Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land or Raiment of the Technomartyrs?

Have you had much mileage with the phosphoenix? I tend to use it for increased shooting but has proved fruitless so far.

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Have you had much mileage with the phosphoenix? I tend to use it for increased shooting but has proved fruitless so far.

The phosphoenix isn't a pistol so I think it's quite limiting. A TPD when in a bind can be pretty good to hold up some chaff or semi-strong assault units from charging your backlines. The 5-shot pistol is quite useful then, and it doesn't "cost" you a relic

PiñaColada wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Have you had much mileage with the phosphoenix? I tend to use it for increased shooting but has proved fruitless so far.

The phosphoenix isn't a pistol so I think it's quite limiting. A TPD when in a bind can be pretty good to hold up some chaff or semi-strong assault units from charging your backlines. The 5-shot pistol is quite useful then, and it doesn't "cost" you a relic

Yeah I’m thinking of ditching it. Have had zero games where it has been of any use. Might go for Lands pimp cane instead

Suzuteo wrote:


Debate: What is the best AdMech relic? Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land or Raiment of the Technomartyrs?

Well I am only new to Admech, but the Raiment looks so terrible on paper I don't think I would ever take it. Is it 6+++ and fire again on a 6 when doing overwatch? Neither of these are going to happen very often unless you have incredible luck ( saving on average 1 out of 6 wounds on a 5 wound model, and the overwatch one still only gives you 1/6 chance of hitting with your bonus shot).

Am I missing something?

Mark.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Metallica is objectively the single worst thing ever in the game though; yes I'm talking about all of 8th edition. The trait is super specific, the Relic might be the single worst in the game due to availability, the Warlord Trait is meh and mostly comparable to Graia (though they do have pros and cons to each), and the Strategem is pretty tame.

*looks at whole Metalica army*



Glad no one objects to count-as.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
Well, at first glance, the codex simply does not offer any no-brainer choices for anything (dogmas/relics). And canticles are simply bonus, not something you can build your list on (compared to drukhari combat drugs). After serious brain storming, agripinaa would perform better than ryza (imo).

I think that's mostly a fact, actually. Overwatch bonus is good even for our melee units as some of them have a surprising amount of shots, and sometimes opponents will like to charge you first just to deny any bonus you might get.

Metallica is objectively the single worst thing ever in the game though; yes I'm talking about all of 8th edition. The trait is super specific, the Relic might be the single worst in the game due to availability, the Warlord Trait is meh and mostly comparable to Graia (though they do have pros and cons to each), and the Strategem is pretty tame.

To rub salt in the wound, it's the hardest scheme to paint and the decals have been out of print for years. I had to get my decals custom made.

It's kind of hilarious how specific their trait is too. It really only affects vanguard, and phosphor pistols on dominuses. I mean having the option to advance and shoot with rangers is cute but it doesn't work for pistols on infiltrators for example. It should've been like the necron trait where we at least got to ignore the penalty for moving with heavy weapons or something.

Oh well, I'll stick with them and if I have to play a tournament I'll run them as stygies I guess

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

To rub salt in the wound, it's the hardest scheme to paint and the decals have been out of print for years. I had to get my decals custom made.

The decals went OOP last year, I believe. Still gone, but not that long ago. That being said, I can't find them on eBay or anything. I would love to get more of the crenelated lines for my robes.

GW needs to stop this mess with decals. The Knight one was the worst culprit, imo. It was far too limited in its release and getting them became absurdly expensive.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
Well, at first glance, the codex simply does not offer any no-brainer choices for anything (dogmas/relics). And canticles are simply bonus, not something you can build your list on (compared to drukhari combat drugs). After serious brain storming, agripinaa would perform better than ryza (imo).

I think that's mostly a fact, actually. Overwatch bonus is good even for our melee units as some of them have a surprising amount of shots, and sometimes opponents will like to charge you first just to deny any bonus you might get.

Metallica is objectively the single worst thing ever in the game though; yes I'm talking about all of 8th edition. The trait is super specific, the Relic might be the single worst in the game due to availability, the Warlord Trait is meh and mostly comparable to Graia (though they do have pros and cons to each), and the Strategem is pretty tame.

To rub salt in the wound, it's the hardest scheme to paint and the decals have been out of print for years. I had to get my decals custom made.

It's kind of hilarious how specific their trait is too. It really only affects vanguard, and phosphor pistols on dominuses. I mean having the option to advance and shoot with rangers is cute but it doesn't work for pistols on infiltrators for example. It should've been like the necron trait where we at least got to ignore the penalty for moving with heavy weapons or something.

Oh well, I'll stick with them and if I have to play a tournament I'll run them as stygies I guess

The only models we have with heavy weapons that dont already ignore movement penalties are TPD and Ballistarii lol

the Lucius Dogma is actually really good against primaris, makes all their fancy bolters into bog standard SM bolters with extra range.

So guys what are your experience regarding a large enough screen: Are 30 Guardsman + 15 Skitarii enough for you?

In my experience, I have run 30-50 man guard screens. They still all die. People bring bolters now because they expect chaff. And when it comes to admech screens, if it aint STYGIES, don't bring it. You need STYGIES rangers screens or gtfo. Also, the truly fast melee units have ways to simply hop over screens. What matters more than screen quantity is screen space. I won my last game because a mortar team advanced and 1 of them got behind terrain and I pulled his friends as casualties and then spent CP to pass morale. That 1 survivor who got up farther than he should pushed the obliterator deepstrike out of range of my basilisks and won me the game.

Also, no matter how thick your screen is, it won't hold back 90 dice from a genestealer/bloodletter/ork bomb. But a suicide scout squad can space out their deepstrike and speed bump them so they are nicely in LOS for your robots.

So that leaves three screen units.

Skitarii - low space, no scout, and not durable for points unless STYGIES, but sometimes you need to take them as a tax. I will likely run MARS rangers just as backfield spacers and campers to keep deepstrikes at bay.

Scouts - irritating to bring because of the no-soup nerf, but these will save you from alpha legion infiltrates and all other manner of first turn tricks that bypass the DS nerf

Guard - ultra flimsy and generally crappy shooters and irritating to play because their shooting isn't all the same type (las pistol / las rifle / mortar). BUT they have one of the best screen tricks in the game - the MOVE MOVE MOVE order allows them to move 12 + 2d6 a turn, which is absolutely massive when it comes to screening by distance.

We could just spam Dragoons, right? Three units of three with a throwaway HQ? That would give us spacing and durability? And that Outrider wouldn't be too pricey and has the bonus of being able to do other stuff.

EDIT:
If you put them length-wise at coherency, you have quite an area of coverage. Back this up with another line of them and leave no room for full units or big stuff to jump comfortably over you and that might be the screen we need... which is funny, because that was what we started with in our Index days!

That's a lot of cash for something that's not too pricey. 9 x $50 USD = $450 for just the dragoons. That's almost the cost of another 2000 point army.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
That's a lot of cash for something that's not too pricey. 9 x $50 USD = $450 for just the dragoons. That's almost the cost of another 2000 point army.

Expensive hobby is expensive. But the idea seems good to me, even if I will wince and grind my teeth when I swipe my card buying these things...

And to compound this, they are misery to build and paint. Truly, this strategy is pure masochism.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
That's a lot of cash for something that's not too pricey. 9 x $50 USD = $450 for just the dragoons. That's almost the cost of another 2000 point army.

This is why I don't run hardcore dragoon lists. I know that a 9 dragoon list is legit. But I don't want to thrown down 300 bucks for 5 more dragoons.

EDIT: for 1274 points, you can make a beastly powerful STYGIES detachment. But I only own 4 dragoons! And when I went to buy another one the store didn't have any. This list paired with a smash battalion and some guard arti would be legit terrifying.

TPD + Enginseer
3x8 rangers
2x4 dragoons.
3x1 icarus onagers

Wulfey wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
That's a lot of cash for something that's not too pricey. 9 x $50 USD = $450 for just the dragoons. That's almost the cost of another 2000 point army.

This is why I don't run hardcore dragoon lists. I know that a 9 dragoon list is legit. But I don't want to thrown down 300 bucks for 5 more dragoons.

EDIT: for 1274 points, you can make a beastly powerful STYGIES detachment. But I only own 4 dragoons! And when I went to buy another one the store didn't have any. This list paired with a smash battalion and some guard arti would be legit terrifying.

TPD + Enginseer
3x8 rangers
2x4 dragoons.
3x1 icarus onagers

And for purists...



Still has a Dozer, but is able to spread out to screen too, along with to pairs to help cover other spots, and 15 dudes to plug smaller holes. Cawlstar is here too. This weirdly looks a lot like my old Index lists.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


And for purists...

Spoiler:

Mars Spearhead +1 CP

HQ:
Cawl
[240]

Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron, 2x CHS
[140]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron, 2x CHS
[140]

[1180]

Stygies Battalion +5CP

HQ:
Enginseer
Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
[47]

Enginseer
Monitor Malevolus
[47]

Troops:
(5) Vanguard
[40]

(5) Rangers
[35]

(5) Rangers
[35]

Fast Attack:
(5) Sydonian Dragoons
[340]

(2) Sydonian Dragoons
[136]

(2) Sydonian Dragoons
[136]

[816]

[1996]

Still has a Dozer, but is able to spread out to screen too, along with to pairs to help cover other spots, and 15 dudes to plug smaller holes. Cawlstar is here too. This weirdly looks a lot like my old Index lists.

Ah yes, 9 dragoons. A list for when you not only hate money, but also yourself

PiñaColada wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


And for purists...

Spoiler:

Mars Spearhead +1 CP

HQ:
Cawl
[240]

Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron, 2x CHS
[140]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron, 2x CHS
[140]

[1180]

Stygies Battalion +5CP

HQ:
Enginseer
Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
[47]

Enginseer
Monitor Malevolus
[47]

Troops:
(5) Vanguard
[40]

(5) Rangers
[35]

(5) Rangers
[35]

Fast Attack:
(5) Sydonian Dragoons
[340]

(2) Sydonian Dragoons
[136]

(2) Sydonian Dragoons
[136]

[816]

[1996]

Still has a Dozer, but is able to spread out to screen too, along with to pairs to help cover other spots, and 15 dudes to plug smaller holes. Cawlstar is here too. This weirdly looks a lot like my old Index lists.

Ah yes, 9 dragoons. A list for when you not only hate money, but also yourself

Having recently but 2 of 8 dragoons I purchased, if you are referring to the masochism of assembly then I agree. I would rather assemble a large metal model with multiple parts than the dragoon.

PiñaColada wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


And for purists...

Spoiler:

Mars Spearhead +1 CP

HQ:
Cawl
[240]

Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron, 2x CHS
[140]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron, 2x CHS
[140]

[1180]

Stygies Battalion +5CP

HQ:
Enginseer
Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
[47]

Enginseer
Monitor Malevolus
[47]

Troops:
(5) Vanguard
[40]

(5) Rangers
[35]

(5) Rangers
[35]

Fast Attack:
(5) Sydonian Dragoons
[340]

(2) Sydonian Dragoons
[136]

(2) Sydonian Dragoons
[136]

[816]

[1996]

Still has a Dozer, but is able to spread out to screen too, along with to pairs to help cover other spots, and 15 dudes to plug smaller holes. Cawlstar is here too. This weirdly looks a lot like my old Index lists.

Ah yes, 9 dragoons. A list for when you not only hate money, but also yourself

Hey I hate both those things. I already lost 5 but I guess I can always just buy more for my next project!

The dragoon's money for points / assembly put me off getting more than 1. I started the first and it's not my favorite build.

The sheer amount of work it takes to clean, build, convert, and paint those ing things is why I’m never going to be able to play this army competitively. Not to mention the cost.

I thought the same at first, but after building my second Dragoon I thought "wow this went much easier". I feel like it's difficult the first time but afterwards it's fine. I had luck because a friend of mine gave me his assembled Dragoon (with a nice little kitbash from WHFB Knights parts) because he stopped AdMech. I'm now currently painting both at the same time and so far it's not been a pain whatsoever.

EDIT: I'd play 2x3 easy because of how good they are. Keep one unit among my lines as a deterrent to enemy DS, and send the other tarpit some stuff like they're so good at. It's 408 pts for 36W of T5 4+/6++ -2 to Hit murderbirds.