This couldn't be clearer. The 9" deepstrike is measured on the hypotenuse. The charge distance is only horizontal for a fly model (usually 4"). And you can UWOF on the first turn because I always put my captain on the board. So for 1CP I get a 4" charge turn 1 if you put something near terrain. It is LOLLLLLL
Unless they're on the 4th floor (more than 12 inches away) and then they are unchargeable.
Wulfey wrote: GW clarified that the 'no deep strike first turn' doesn't count towards units that start on the board. I always put my captains on the board. The 9" base to base requirement for deepstrike is always measured as a hypotenuse base to base (aka, real world distance). But FLY models have always ignored intervening terrain when calculating charge distances. GW then further says:
Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.
This couldn't be clearer. The 9" deepstrike is measured on the hypotenuse. The charge distance is only horizontal for a fly model (usually 4"). And you can UWOF on the first turn because I always put my captain on the board. So for 1CP I get a 4" charge turn 1 if you put something near terrain. It is LOLLLLLL
Ah. Damn FAQs produce so many more questions.
So, to be clear:
1) Deep strike is measured base-to-base.
2) Charge DECLARATION has to be 12", also base-to-base.
3) Charge DISTANCE uses the horizontal distance.
So elevation gives you a charge distance advantage. Ugh.
EDIT: Yeah. Just watched someone do it. Really ridiculous. I have to be very careful to deploy ontop of buildings now.
GW clarified that the 'no deep strike first turn' doesn't count towards units that start on the board. I always put my captains on the board. The 9" base to base requirement for deepstrike is always measured as a hypotenuse base to base (aka, real world distance). But FLY models have always ignored intervening terrain when calculating charge distances. GW then further says:
Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.
This couldn't be clearer. The 9" deepstrike is measured on the hypotenuse. The charge distance is only horizontal for a fly model (usually 4"). And you can UWOF on the first turn because I always put my captain on the board. So for 1CP I get a 4" charge turn 1 if you put something near terrain. It is LOLLLLLL
ph34r wrote: Looks pretty cool. I don't have space marines so it's not a path I will be treading myself.
I've been thinking about fielding a Knight again now that turn 1 deep strike can't melt it as automatically.
Just the one? What would you go for?
I'd have to imagine the shooting variant. A melee variant just won't live long enough to be of use in an AdMech list unless other melee distractions are being ran with it.
ph34r wrote: Looks pretty cool. I don't have space marines so it's not a path I will be treading myself.
I've been thinking about fielding a Knight again now that turn 1 deep strike can't melt it as automatically.
Just the one? What would you go for?
I'd have to imagine the shooting variant. A melee variant just won't live long enough to be of use in an AdMech list unless other melee distractions are being ran with it.
I concur. Unless they give you extra attacks for picking a CC weapon they're just never going to be worth it. Or, long shot, if a CC weapon gives them the ability to King Kong flyers. I mean it'll never happen but I'd be so happy to start smacking all these alaitoc hemlocks that apparently exist in the 40k universe now..
So, to be clear:
1) Deep strike is measured base-to-base.
2) Charge DECLARATION has to be 12", also base-to-base.
3) Charge DISTANCE uses the horizontal distance.
So elevation gives you a charge distance advantage. Ugh.
EDIT: Yeah. Just watched someone do it. Really ridiculous. I have to be very careful to deploy ontop of buildings now.
just to add... I think you know this, but... just in case... your 3) only applies to units that have fly. Other units need to measure horizontal + vertical which pythagoras tell us is likely to be pretty much impossible.
Josh Death(1st in the whole ITC) is taking Stygies to the London GT. 38 fulgurites 6 dragoons, 2 enginseers, 3x MSU sniper rangers
+ BA supreme(2 packtains(SS, TH), bike techmarine) + IG (3x elysian sniper squads)
I don't even :s Seems bad.
On other news:
Nick played admech on stream with 6 dragoons, 6 balistarii + 3 shield captains + 3 cullexus vs eldar. Admech died and did almost no damage. Allies cleaned up and won ._.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Nick played admech on stream with 6 dragoons, 6 balistarii + 3 shield captains + 3 cullexus vs eldar. Admech died and did almost no damage. Allies cleaned up and won ._.
That's a terrible list ?
And maybe Eldar is the problem ? Not saying AdMech is brilliant but ofc when you make it face Eldar it's always going to live fast die young.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Nick played admech on stream with 6 dragoons, 6 balistarii + 3 shield captains + 3 cullexus vs eldar. Admech died and did almost no damage. Allies cleaned up and won ._.
Well, if it's a team battle, then it's not too bad. Nick seems to be fielding all the good cavalry there.
Hah! The 6 ballistarii stack as the meta buster. 3+ to hit with +2 from the strategem and rerolling 1s from canticles is hilarious. Take that ELDAR! Too bad they die like flies to 3 damage weapons. I have a new job that pays so I am up to my 5th dragoon kit. Guess I should get a 6th soon. It is super lame that kits like the Onager are kokbloked at 3 kits max in competitive, but dragoons ... just keep adding them ... more is better ...
Wulfey wrote: Hah! The 6 ballistarii stack as the meta buster. 3+ to hit with +2 from the strategem and rerolling 1s from canticles is hilarious. Take that ELDAR! Too bad they die like flies to 3 damage weapons. I have a new job that pays so I am up to my 5th dragoon kit. Guess I should get a 6th soon. It is super lame that kits like the Onager are kokbloked at 3 kits max in competitive, but dragoons ... just keep adding them ... more is better ...
Dragoons are amazing (once bought, assembled & painted) but I'd argue they're not great against eldar. Theoretically they'll do work but in reality, at least in my experience they're too easy for eldar to outmaneuver. Basically all eldar units either have fly (so they're faster, can't be tied down in combat if it survives & can fly on top of buildings) or are infantry so they hide in buildings. Because of how ruins work those dragoons are quite easily rendered useless then. Obviously this is subject to the amount of terrain on the board though.
Aaaaand I'm an idiot so I for whatever reason forgot that you where talking about balistarii
Depends on the Eldar composition. Dragoons are great tank hunters. And forcing them to remain in cover is fine. That's why we bring (or brought, for some) Cawlstar.
Yeah I checked out the DW leaks and found them wanting. We don't need costly, tough, medium shooting troops. If there were deathwatch scouts or deathwatch scouts bikers ... oh boy yes. The best things in the DW book are deathwatch intercessors ... but we just don't need more mid strength -2 shooting at 36" range (hello dakkabots). After my last tournament where celestine really let me down a few times, I am thinking of running the following this Saturdey. Dropping her to take mephiston and dropping her 100 point girl escort for some extra guard bodies for more CP. This list bases at 18 CP and can get access to 5+/5+ from the guard WL and then another 5+ recycling that stacks with the Veritas Vitae captain relic. I am going to run some node sims to see if stacking CP recycling that high is worth the -2 CP and relic slot at the start of the game. Because refunded CP can themselves be refunded later in the game, double dipping on refunds could be decisive.
<NOT SURE> battalion - 2x commanders, 3x guardsmen, 1x mortar team <MARS> battalion - Cawl, engi, 5x dakkabots, 3x rangers, 2x icarus (neutron let me down, might as well have anti flier) BLANGELS battalion - 2x slamcaptain, Mephiston, 3x5 bolter scouts with stormbolter/chainsword seargants (this is the best equip, marking it down here)
Slam captains utterly obviate neutrons. If I have 18 base CP ... why bring a neutron to do spare smashes job? And I am considering TALLARN just so I can threaten to keep the guard off the board until turn 3 to contest objectives against certain gunline opponnents. And TALLARN can advance and still first rank fire second rank fire at full BS, which is kinda hillarious versus cultists.
EDIT: other lesson from last tourney: skitarii troops are bad. Like real bad. They will placed out of LOS or bubble wrapping characters to prevent first turn flyer snipes and hiding on the back of the board all game. Rangers are good for being cheap and good for hiding. They killed maybe 3 or 4 ELDAR rangers and 2 scouts all tournament, that is it.
EDIT2: I EDIT3: DO really miss my basilisks. They are great against things without -1 to be hit that are trying to hide. And that is good. But they won't help me against hard opponents the same way smash captains save me against the hardest of things. If I wasn't running admech I would bring them because they do a similar role to the onagers. But due to cawls aura I think the icarus's profoundly accurate firepower (since I have the CP to give one of them +2 to hit per turn) will do me more.
@Wulfey
Why not Hammer of Baal instead of Veritas Vitae? I mean, since he gets Overwatched and killed relatively soon, I would not want a support relic on him.
And per the ongoing discussion in the other thread, I'm not convinced that two Captains is optimal. Captain + Lemartes is point efficient and super consistent, and Captain + Mephiston seem to be the all-in, high damage option.
Heavy Support - 660 6x Kastelan Robots - 15x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Total: 1997 points 18 CP (-2)
I've also got a Stygies version with 10x Death Company. That one is much less CP hungry, but it seems to be at odds with itself. Too much assault actually undermines the artillery component of the army.
Anyhow, still have to actually build my BA characters and deal with more work travel. But maybe I will be able to get some games in this summer.
I bought a set of three (ab)used Stormcast Eternals on eBay for $15. Bought some bits for $20. Going to strip and kitbash Slamguinius, Lemartes, and The Sanguinor for roughly $12 each.
I like the stormcast being the basis for the smash captains. I used primaris marines + a vanguard veteran kit for the weapons and the jetpacks. Having played 2 captains, my argument is that more CP => more damage. Having 2 really hit hard. You would be surprised how often you can deny overwatch just by putting a slam captain behind some wall. I get lemartes as being good provided you give him good targets. He has to be aimed at things that aren't big vehicles because he is only S6. I like the second captain because he is a second devastating missile to wreck some giant monster or giant vehicle that my robots can't kill.
EDIT: on the list above, yes, I am so close to running that. I think it is strong and works basically right. I am putting the Icarus above the Basilisk and one more robot right now. But I think it is a very close call. And yes, I like the basic GUARD + ADMECH + BLANGELS list a lot right now.
EDIT2: here is what we are contrasting:
Slam2 + Mephiston + 2x Icarus + mortar team
Lemartes(orSlam2) + 3x basilisks + 1x robot
Okay now the basilisks and another robot are looking good. Slam2 is easier to play than mephiston and then I have 1 less model to paint. This also speeds up my shooting phase a lot.
EDIT3: you convinced me. Basilisks are back on the table. Smash caps really love killing fliers. Don't need icarus.
Wulfey wrote: Yeah I checked out the DW leaks and found them wanting. We don't need costly, tough, medium shooting troops. If there were deathwatch scouts or deathwatch scouts bikers ... oh boy yes. The best things in the DW book are deathwatch intercessors ... but we just don't need more mid strength -2 shooting at 36" range (hello dakkabots). After my last tournament where celestine really let me down a few times, I am thinking of running the following this Saturdey. Dropping her to take mephiston and dropping her 100 point girl escort for some extra guard bodies for more CP. This list bases at 18 CP and can get access to 5+/5+ from the guard WL and then another 5+ recycling that stacks with the Veritas Vitae captain relic. I am going to run some node sims to see if stacking CP recycling that high is worth the -2 CP and relic slot at the start of the game. Because refunded CP can themselves be refunded later in the game, double dipping on refunds could be decisive.
<NOT SURE> battalion - 2x commanders, 3x guardsmen, 1x mortar team
<MARS> battalion - Cawl, engi, 5x dakkabots, 3x rangers, 2x icarus (neutron let me down, might as well have anti flier)
BLANGELS battalion - 2x slamcaptain, Mephiston, 3x5 bolter scouts with stormbolter/chainsword seargants (this is the best equip, marking it down here)
Slam captains utterly obviate neutrons. If I have 18 base CP ... why bring a neutron to do spare smashes job? And I am considering TALLARN just so I can threaten to keep the guard off the board until turn 3 to contest objectives against certain gunline opponnents. And TALLARN can advance and still first rank fire second rank fire at full BS, which is kinda hillarious versus cultists.
EDIT: other lesson from last tourney: skitarii troops are bad. Like real bad. They will placed out of LOS or bubble wrapping characters to prevent first turn flyer snipes and hiding on the back of the board all game. Rangers are good for being cheap and good for hiding. They killed maybe 3 or 4 ELDAR rangers and 2 scouts all tournament, that is it.
EDIT2: I EDIT3: DO really miss my basilisks. They are great against things without -1 to be hit that are trying to hide. And that is good. But they won't help me against hard opponents the same way smash captains save me against the hardest of things. If I wasn't running admech I would bring them because they do a similar role to the onagers. But due to cawls aura I think the icarus's profoundly accurate firepower (since I have the CP to give one of them +2 to hit per turn) will do me more.
What made you flip flop from mars to stygies and back to mars? Did you find the dragoons struggle against flyers and ruin abuse?
I would need to build and full paint a fresh dragoon and my shadowsword isn't even close to ready. I converted it up to have some custom sponsons and reused the stormlord cannon to count as 4 heavy bolters in a flipped upside down turret. I think it looks like a CIWS. The flipped stormlord frame gives it a good 20 degrees depression and 40 degrees elevation. I have it mounted a magnet so it can spin. But the point is with work and gym and gf time, I don't have the 8 hours of work the shadowsword needs to be ready for this saturday tournament. But my slam captains and basilisks and robots are all good to go. Just need a few touch ups on my rangers. The Kastle Konflict crew insists not on just 3 colors, but basic tabletop standard or you get whacked (with nasty per unit strategems too).
Spoiler:
EDIT: on the veritas vitae, I am going to run some simulations tonight on node. I will have an answer by tomorrow. I usually just run hammer of baal cause it is dope.
I highly recommend Stormcast Prosecutors for Blood Angels characters. The baroque armor is ideal for BA; just remove some of the lightning bolts and stick backpacks, pouches, and Space Marine shoulders and heads on them. And with a little green stuff, you can make the meteor emblems on the giant wings into blood drops.
Wulfey wrote: Hah! The 6 ballistarii stack as the meta buster. 3+ to hit with +2 from the strategem and rerolling 1s from canticles is hilarious. Take that ELDAR! Too bad they die like flies to 3 damage weapons. I have a new job that pays so I am up to my 5th dragoon kit. Guess I should get a 6th soon. It is super lame that kits like the Onager are kokbloked at 3 kits max in competitive, but dragoons ... just keep adding them ... more is better ...
It's nonsense that Onagers can't be fielded in squadrons now that we're seeing the beta testing of 'rule of 3' for tournaments.
It would be one thing if the Emanatus Forcefields were still as strong as they were last edition, but they're really not that impressive now.
What would people think of Emanatus Forcefields granting a 6+ Invulnerable Save to friendly <Forge World>Infantry models within 6" and going back to +1 to the Invulnerable Save for Onager Dunecrawlers within 6"; capping out at a 3+?
lash92 wrote: Our troops alreay have a 6++, so really no point.
Sure there would be... Making "Bionics" a not sucky rule! We get a 6+ invulnerable save while frigging Poxwalkers get the ability to shrug off individual Wounds after failing their 7+ saves?
Admittedly this line of thinking might be better served in Proposed Rules.
Also, interestingly enough we do have a troop type without Bionics...the standard Servitor! Why he doesn't have Bionics, who knows.
Also, interestingly enough we do have a troop type without Bionics...the standard Servitor! Why he doesn't have Bionics, who knows.
Another thing the standard servitor appears not to have is any sort of purpose. They really should be able to contribute in some way, such as assisting tech priests with repairs (which it alludes to in the description, but then they completely lack a rule to do even that), bodyguarding characters (some rule to intercept hits) or providing fire support (being immune to mindlock if stationary, or having a more flexible loadout so you don't need to take the useless servo arms, though they are iconic...)
Has anyone ever found a purpose for them, or even fielded them?
Not really in 8th. In the last edition, Techpriests using "Blessings of the Omnissiah" added +1 for each Servitor with a Servo-Arm in their unit to the D6 roll for repairing.
Repairs were on a 5+ then versus the "it just happens" that it is now.
ph34r wrote: Neat shadowsword. What list to support it?
When it is done I was thinking of running a STYGIES brigade with a dragoon bomb, some rangers, and some icarus onagers. I think there is a lot of synergy there because the icarus shoots what the shadowsword can't, the dragoons fight, and the enginseers can fix the shadowsword. What I don't get is what Joshua Death (number 1 global ITC ranking) is running at the London GT. Death is running something like:
CADIA battalion - 2x com (5+/5+), 3x guards
BLANGELS command - 2x smash captain (I knew I was onto something), techpriest on bike with conversion beamer (holds the 5+ refund relic)
STYGIES vanguard? battalion? - enginseer, 1x6 dragoons, 2x19 fulgurite staff priests
This guy is the top ranked player in the world going to a hard as nails tournament ... and he brings 2x priest bomb.
ph34r wrote: Neat shadowsword. What list to support it?
When it is done I was thinking of running a STYGIES brigade with a dragoon bomb, some rangers, and some icarus onagers. I think there is a lot of synergy there because the icarus shoots what the shadowsword can't, the dragoons fight, and the enginseers can fix the shadowsword. What I don't get is what Joshua Death (number 1 global ITC ranking) is running at the London GT. Death is running something like:
CADIA battalion - 2x com (5+/5+), 3x guards
BLANGELS command - 2x smash captain (I knew I was onto something), techpriest on bike with conversion beamer (holds the 5+ refund relic)
STYGIES vanguard? battalion? - enginseer, 1x6 dragoons, 2x19 fulgurite staff priests
This guy is the top ranked player in the world going to a hard as nails tournament ... and he brings 2x priest bomb.
Techpriest on bike?! Sign me up for that! Could make a mars biker gang called Cawls Angels
ph34r wrote: Neat shadowsword. What list to support it?
When it is done I was thinking of running a STYGIES brigade with a dragoon bomb, some rangers, and some icarus onagers. I think there is a lot of synergy there because the icarus shoots what the shadowsword can't, the dragoons fight, and the enginseers can fix the shadowsword. What I don't get is what Joshua Death (number 1 global ITC ranking) is running at the London GT. Death is running something like:
CADIA battalion - 2x com (5+/5+), 3x guards
BLANGELS command - 2x smash captain (I knew I was onto something), techpriest on bike with conversion beamer (holds the 5+ refund relic)
STYGIES vanguard? battalion? - enginseer, 1x6 dragoons, 2x19 fulgurite staff priests
This guy is the top ranked player in the world going to a hard as nails tournament ... and he brings 2x priest bomb.
Yeah. Icarus and Kastelans essentially kill the same things, with the former being better against flying and the latter against characters.
Ohhh... I can see that Command detachment working. I just would not put the Vitae relic on a Slamguinius; Hammer of Baal seems preferable. The Techmarine is interesting. If it's barebones, it's a relatively cheap character. A Lieutenant can also work.
I think he is counting on the fact that he can alpha harder than the opponent with the Electro-Priests. I mean, EPs aren't bad. They are just inconsistent as hell.
Not entirely sure I've understood - is that saying the vitae nets you an extra 8CP over the course of a battle?
Edit: surely you should just take the vitae if you know you're going to use more than 6 stratagems (after deployment)
Edit 2: you'd also have to factor in how long your smash captain is going to hang around. I'm yet to run one, but if they die fairly early on it might be hard to earn the vitae's CP back in time
So folks, we got a new tournament series in Germany. Some quick facts:
- ITC like missions
- 1750 points
- max 2 Detachments, from which one has to be a battalion
- like GW they have a anti-spam rule, but with a limit of 2 units of each type. (exception standards, from which you can have max. 5 of each type)
- max 1 LoW
How would you run your army under such restrictions?
If was thinking about a Stygies Batallion with 2 Onagers, 2 Kastellans + 1x3 Destroyer, Dragoon Bomb + a Guard artillery batallion.
I feel like there should probably be seperate tactics threads for pure AdMech and allied armies. Its just way too much non-AM stuff in here, imo. And yeah, I know, pure AM is underpowered and wont win tournaments, sure. But if I wanted to use a tiny AM detachment in a BA army, Id be looking at the BA thread, no?
Tyr13 wrote: I feel like there should probably be seperate tactics threads for pure AdMech and allied armies. Its just way too much non-AM stuff in here, imo. And yeah, I know, pure AM is underpowered and wont win tournaments, sure. But if I wanted to use a tiny AM detachment in a BA army, Id be looking at the BA thread, no?
Probably should have a Soup thread at this point, since I know most Tactica threads don't like divergent lists as much.
Well if you can get first turn the infiltrating electropriests will kill something (even chaff bubblewrap) to get their shields up ... not sure how it works if you don't get first turn though...
Also, a metric buttload of snipers will force the enemy to keep his HQs in reserves/transports.
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Thinking about building a GRAIA force out of my forgebane. Ive heard lots say they arent worth it over MARS but I like Vanguard a lot.
Anyone with GRAIA experience?
I use Graia with my superheavy tanks. It's fantastic psychic defense - the stratagem is just bonkers. Some little gak gets like +3 or +5 or whatever to cast? Tell him to bugger off on a 4+! But the dogma is strictly mediocre, and while the relic is good, I'm using mine to support Guard tanks and so don't have a TPD.
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Thinking about building a GRAIA force out of my forgebane. Ive heard lots say they arent worth it over MARS but I like Vanguard a lot.
Anyone with GRAIA experience?
I use Graia with my superheavy tanks. It's fantastic psychic defense - the stratagem is just bonkers. Some little gak gets like +3 or +5 or whatever to cast? Tell him to bugger off on a 4+! But the dogma is strictly mediocre, and while the relic is good, I'm using mine to support Guard tanks and so don't have a TPD.
Tyr13 wrote: I feel like there should probably be seperate tactics threads for pure AdMech and allied armies. Its just way too much non-AM stuff in here, imo. And yeah, I know, pure AM is underpowered and wont win tournaments, sure. But if I wanted to use a tiny AM detachment in a BA army, Id be looking at the BA thread, no?
Probably should have a Soup thread at this point, since I know most Tactica threads don't like divergent lists as much.
Wulfey, get on that bro!
I could see a broader IMPERIUM-SOUP-ITC tactica thread. There has to be other guys like me out there. I would be willing to migrate.
Back on that Josh Death list tho, the VERITAS VITAE is what is allowing him to consistently threaten to have this Electropriests fight twice. Even if he loses a full brick of electropriests, the second one will fight twice and go super sayan. Must ... not ... buy ... $240 MSRP of electropriests ... urrrr he better not win .... EDIT: the VITAE could be key to putting my admech over the top on saturday, so I still think it is an admech tactica point.
Tyr13 wrote: I feel like there should probably be seperate tactics threads for pure AdMech and allied armies. Its just way too much non-AM stuff in here, imo. And yeah, I know, pure AM is underpowered and wont win tournaments, sure. But if I wanted to use a tiny AM detachment in a BA army, Id be looking at the BA thread, no?
Probably should have a Soup thread at this point, since I know most Tactica threads don't like divergent lists as much.
Wulfey, get on that bro!
I could see a broader IMPERIUM-SOUP-ITC tactica thread. There has to be other guys like me out there. I would be willing to migrate.
Back on that Josh Death list tho, the VERITAS VITAE is what is allowing him to consistently threaten to have this Electropriests fight twice. Even if he loses a full brick of electropriests, the second one will fight twice and go super sayan. Must ... not ... buy ... $240 MSRP of electropriests ... urrrr he better not win .... EDIT: the VITAE could be key to putting my admech over the top on saturday, so I still think it is an admech tactica point.
Aw I would miss the input the soupers have to offer. I find it interesting even if it isn’t everyone’s cup of tea
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Thinking about building a GRAIA force out of my forgebane. Ive heard lots say they arent worth it over MARS but I like Vanguard a lot.
Anyone with GRAIA experience?
I use graia exclusively, which obviously isn't the best, but I try to stay away from hyper compeitive games more and more and it makes our basic troops surprisingly durable. Anything specific you're wondering about?
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Thinking about building a GRAIA force out of my forgebane. Ive heard lots say they arent worth it over MARS but I like Vanguard a lot.
Anyone with GRAIA experience?
I use graia exclusively, which obviously isn't the best, but I try to stay away from hyper competitive games more and more and it makes our basic troops surprisingly durable. Anything specific you're wondering about?
Im kind of in the same boat (avoiding Mars and Stiges), Ive got half of a Forgebane and a start collecting box so I've got enough for a battalion.
How best to equip a Dominus? Relics? Warlord Traits?
Are Engiseers preferable to a second Dominus?
Plasma on vanguard Arbequis on rangers?
Next additions to consider to the army?
General Tactics?
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Thinking about building a GRAIA force out of my forgebane. Ive heard lots say they arent worth it over MARS but I like Vanguard a lot.
Anyone with GRAIA experience?
I use graia exclusively, which obviously isn't the best, but I try to stay away from hyper competitive games more and more and it makes our basic troops surprisingly durable. Anything specific you're wondering about?
Im kind of in the same boat (avoiding Mars and Stiges), Ive got half of a Forgebane and a start collecting box so I've got enough for a battalion.
How best to equip a Dominus? Relics? Warlord Traits?
Are Engiseers preferable to a second Dominus?
Plasma on vanguard Arbequis on rangers?
Next additions to consider to the army?
General Tactics?
Alright, so some of these questions are more geared towards admech in general and obviously all of these answers depend on how strong you need your army to be. But I'll try and answer them from my own experience.
1, I always equip the Tech priest dominus (TPD) with his stock equipment, so the macrostubber and volkite blaster. They seem to be the most versatile to me and also the cheapest. He's my warlord with monitor malevolus and autocadeceus of arkhan land.
2, I do one TPD and the rest enginseers, I guess you can splurge for another TPD if you want to but if feel like the benefit to cost ratio isn't there. The enginseers are horrible at anything other than filling detchment slots and repairs but they're pretty cheap.
3,Yeah, pretty much. I also like the arc rifle cause it's cheap so if you have some leftover points, a few of those are never a bad idea to sprinkle in I feel.
4, I'd do another start collecting. Honestly I'd do two more if you like skitarii infantry. I hate painting them but they feel pretty solid with the graia buff and more board presence helps with our unique stratagem. They are awful to build and paint though. Three onagers are great for pure admech so the box is a good deal, even if you'll end up with leftover TPD's. (everyone on here probably has 2-3 unbuilt laying around)
Other than that dragoons are great, but costly in real money and very tedious to build and paint. Two kastelan robots are basically a must have in pure admech, most people here would argue for 5-6 but unless you're playing against really tough lists even two will be a powerful tool.
The amigers are, as of right now pre-codex, pretty bad. Hopefully the inbound codex will give them some special rules and a 50-60ish point drop. Their damage is just too random and they are not as durable as one might think, the models are great though.
Alright, so some of these questions are more geared towards admech in general and obviously all of these answers depend on how strong you need your army to be. But I'll try and answer them from my own experience.
1, I always equip the Tech priest dominus (TPD) with his stock equipment, so the macrostubber and volkite blaster. They seem to be the most versatile to me and also the cheapest. He's my warlord with monitor malevolus and autocadeceus of arkhan land.
2, I do one TPD and the rest enginseers, I guess you can splurge for another TPD if you want to but if feel like the benefit to cost ratio isn't there. The enginseers are horrible at anything other than filling detchment slots and repairs but they're pretty cheap.
3,Yeah, pretty much. I also like the arc rifle cause it's cheap so if you have some leftover points, a few of those are never a bad idea to sprinkle in I feel.
4, I'd do another start collecting. Honestly I'd do two more if you like skitarii infantry. I hate painting them but they feel pretty solid with the graia buff and more board presence helps with our unique stratagem. They are awful to build and paint though. Three onagers are great for pure admech so the box is a good deal, even if you'll end up with leftover TPD's. (everyone on here probably has 2-3 unbuilt laying around)
Other than that dragoons are great, but costly in real money and very tedious to build and paint. Two kastelan robots are basically a must have in pure admech, most people here would argue for 5-6 but unless you're playing against really tough lists even two will be a powerful tool.
The amigers are, as of right now pre-codex, pretty bad. Hopefully the inbound codex will give them some special rules and a 50-60ish point drop. Their damage is just too random and they are not as durable as one might think, the models are great though.
Extremely helpful stuff to know! A shame the Dragoon and Engiseers are extreme expensive $$$ wise though im not opposed to converting the latter. I haven't tried out the armiger as of yet but It seems a bit expensive for what it does.
Electropriests?
For the Dominus have you tried the Graia WL trait? It seems appealing when combined with a big chunk of vanguard or am I hoping for too much?
I actually loved painting my first vanguard so lets hope it doesn't get old too fast
Extremely helpful stuff to know! A shame the Dragoon and Engiseers are extreme expensive $$$ wise though im not opposed to converting the latter. I haven't tried out the armiger as of yet but It seems a bit expensive for what it does.
Electropriests?
For the Dominus have you tried the Graia WL trait? It seems appealing when combined with a big chunk of vanguard or am I hoping for too much?
I actually loved painting my first vanguard so lets hope it doesn't get old too fast
Dragoons are a pain but even just two of them are a pretty good counter-charge threat. I've never personally used electropriests because I hate those models and they're pretty expensive in real money. I feel like, as graia, speed is going to be the biggest drawback. They just don't have any way of getting up the board, also the big FAQ gave graia a slight nerf for the electropriests (no more stacking feel no pain). They do have some potential though. I think a unit of infiltrators can help with harassing soft targets and stealing backfield objectives for a fairly reasonable cost.
I've tried the trait but in neither of the games I used it, it made any difference. Whereas generating command points is always practical. It has some utility (especially if you remember that vanguard give -1 toughness in close combat) I hope your love for the skitarii troops continue, I love the models but have a 10-pack unbuilt as of right now that I'm just never in the mood to finish.
My only concern about the Death list is that it can really go splat depending on who goes first.
Also, I don't understand why there are so many sniper rifles. I mean, yes, I see how he resolved the assault vs. artillery problem with them, but I question the point efficiency. Mortar spam might be more efficient.
Concerning the Soup talk, I honestly doubt there would be much to say about pure AdMech. Fact is, Mars and Stygies are the only good Forge Worlds, with Graia and Lucius being a distant and very situational second place.
Hey folks, those of you stacking multiple CP relics/ warlord traits.
Do you envisage GW nerfing the way that they can all stack/insisting CP gains be specific and bound to single army/detachments or it it all part of the fun?
I’m not sure if it has been discussed previously us but was curious myself
average spent CP during game [excluding pre game]:
27.7443
average refunds:
{ VERITAE: 5.828425,
KUROVS: 2.663625,
GRAND_STRATEGIST: 9.25225 }
Each of the refunds feed onto each other, so adding VERITAE on top of the other two is effectively paying 2CP to get back 7 more spent CP over the course of the game.
Suzuteo wrote: So... barebones Techmarine is 57 points and 2 CP for a Veritas Vitae.
I wonder why Death decided to make a shooting biker Techmarine that costs 94 points. Seems like a good way to get your relic bearer killed.
He's fast and has a weapon that gets stronger at range right? Keeps him out of trouble and let's him contribute without having to get close enough to get stabbed/shot. Plus having a shoot character that can move fast probably comes in handy for late game objective grabs and those weird kind of clutch plays that sometimes pop up late game. Better than putting your relic on a smash captain and having it off table turn 1 (where it doesn't generate cp) then drop in and die turn 2-3.
Suzuteo wrote: So... barebones Techmarine is 57 points and 2 CP for a Veritas Vitae.
I wonder why Death decided to make a shooting biker Techmarine that costs 94 points. Seems like a good way to get your relic bearer killed.
He's fast and has a weapon that gets stronger at range right? Keeps him out of trouble and let's him contribute without having to get close enough to get stabbed/shot. Plus having a shoot character that can move fast probably comes in handy for late game objective grabs and those weird kind of clutch plays that sometimes pop up late game. Better than putting your relic on a smash captain and having it off table turn 1 (where it doesn't generate cp) then drop in and die turn 2-3.
Yeah. I guess he's taking him as a shooty option. I dunno though. 29 points for 4 Rapid Fire shots (Twin Bolters and Storm Bolter), some extra move, and +1T sounds like a bad deal. I mean, If you get into Rapid Fire range (12", you actually lose the Conversion Beamer bonus (>21".
I would build mine as a Techmarine with Conversion Beamer, Chainsword, Bolter. So 65 points.
Extremely helpful stuff to know! A shame the Dragoon and Engiseers are extreme expensive $$$ wise though im not opposed to converting the latter. I haven't tried out the armiger as of yet but It seems a bit expensive for what it does.
Electropriests?
For the Dominus have you tried the Graia WL trait? It seems appealing when combined with a big chunk of vanguard or am I hoping for too much?
I actually loved painting my first vanguard so lets hope it doesn't get old too fast
Dragoons are a pain but even just two of them are a pretty good counter-charge threat. I've never personally used electropriests because I hate those models and they're pretty expensive in real money. I feel like, as graia, speed is going to be the biggest drawback. They just don't have any way of getting up the board, also the big FAQ gave graia a slight nerf for the electropriests (no more stacking feel no pain). They do have some potential though. I think a unit of infiltrators can help with harassing soft targets and stealing backfield objectives for a fairly reasonable cost.
I've tried the trait but in neither of the games I used it, it made any difference. Whereas generating command points is always practical. It has some utility (especially if you remember that vanguard give -1 toughness in close combat) I hope your love for the skitarii troops continue, I love the models but have a 10-pack unbuilt as of right now that I'm just never in the mood to finish.
The FAQ doesn't affect refusal to yield as it's not a wound ignoring mechanic. It's a death ignoring mechanic. They stack just fine.
Suzuteo wrote: So... barebones Techmarine is 57 points and 2 CP for a Veritas Vitae.
I wonder why Death decided to make a shooting biker Techmarine that costs 94 points. Seems like a good way to get your relic bearer killed.
He's fast and has a weapon that gets stronger at range right? Keeps him out of trouble and let's him contribute without having to get close enough to get stabbed/shot. Plus having a shoot character that can move fast probably comes in handy for late game objective grabs and those weird kind of clutch plays that sometimes pop up late game. Better than putting your relic on a smash captain and having it off table turn 1 (where it doesn't generate cp) then drop in and die turn 2-3.
Yeah. I guess he's taking him as a shooty option. I dunno though. 29 points for 4 Rapid Fire shots (Twin Bolters and Storm Bolter), some extra move, and +1T sounds like a bad deal. I mean, If you get into Rapid Fire range (12", you actually lose the Conversion Beamer bonus (>21".
I would build mine as a Techmarine with Conversion Beamer, Chainsword, Bolter. So 65 points.
You can always shoot them at different targets so the conversion beamer keeps its bonus
Sledgio wrote:Idk the standard SM codex that well, but is the bike so he can advance every turn for the 4++ jink save?
Thats a DA Ravenwing thing. Other chapters don't get jink afaik
The FAQ doesn't affect refusal to yield as it's not a wound ignoring mechanic. It's a death ignoring mechanic. They stack just fine.
Huh, I guess that's true. As I said, I've never used them so never thought about it too much. I also think that's RAW rather than RAI but what do I know?
Do you guys often run against Plague Drones when playing against a Nurgle/DG player ? I found the little buggers are a pain to erase, and one of the players in my LGS started playing 10 of them recently. I already think it's exhausting facing DG but if they start pumping out ten 4W T5 5++/5+++ flying abominations for a grand 340 pts I think I'm done. He intends on buffing them with a spell that gives +1D on 6+ to Wound or something like that so in short they'll each be dealing a lot of damage (without AP thank god) in absurd numbers, and with that Frustratingly Resilient stuff I don't see how I can kill them. I'm not even sure 4 Dakkabots with WoM would wipe them to be honest.
Aaranis wrote: Do you guys often run against Plague Drones when playing against a Nurgle/DG player ? I found the little buggers are a pain to erase, and one of the players in my LGS started playing 10 of them recently. I already think it's exhausting facing DG but if they start pumping out ten 4W T5 5++/5+++ flying abominations for a grand 340 pts I think I'm done. He intends on buffing them with a spell that gives +1D on 6+ to Wound or something like that so in short they'll each be dealing a lot of damage (without AP thank god) in absurd numbers, and with that Frustratingly Resilient stuff I don't see how I can kill them. I'm not even sure 4 Dakkabots with WoM would wipe them to be honest.
Well, good news is the most he can run is three now. Which is good, because it will take about 5 Wrathbots to drop one a turn, generally (and with really loose math).
Aaranis wrote: Do you guys often run against Plague Drones when playing against a Nurgle/DG player ? I found the little buggers are a pain to erase, and one of the players in my LGS started playing 10 of them recently. I already think it's exhausting facing DG but if they start pumping out ten 4W T5 5++/5+++ flying abominations for a grand 340 pts I think I'm done. He intends on buffing them with a spell that gives +1D on 6+ to Wound or something like that so in short they'll each be dealing a lot of damage (without AP thank god) in absurd numbers, and with that Frustratingly Resilient stuff I don't see how I can kill them. I'm not even sure 4 Dakkabots with WoM would wipe them to be honest.
Well, good news is the most he can run is three now. Which is good, because it will take about 5 Wrathbots to drop one a turn, generally (and with really loose math).
Yeah I misunderstood, it's a unit of 9 he's going to run. I don't have 5 Kastelans anyway, and as a matter of curiosity I did the maths for a match-up of 3 Dragoons vs 6 Plague Drones (both 204 pts) and I concluded (at least from that single match-up) that Plague Drones are pure madness. Like, "what the hell were you thinking GW" madness. I'd need to run more match-ups to have a more stable opinion but doing their maths is a pain so not right now.
3 Dragoons vs 6 Plague Drones:
- 3 Dragoons: 5,33W inflicted, with rerolls of 1 to Hit 6,22W, with Conqueror Imperative + rerolls of 1 to Hit 11,41W to the 6 Plague Drones, killing almost two of them;
- 6 Plague Drones (with Nurgle Locus): 10,21W inflicted, and with rerolls of 1 to Hit 11,42W.
And that's without counting the psychic power that buffs their Damage on a 7+ while giving +1 to Hit. They're almost twice as efficient as Dragoons in that match-up.
Aaranis wrote: Do you guys often run against Plague Drones when playing against a Nurgle/DG player ? I found the little buggers are a pain to erase, and one of the players in my LGS started playing 10 of them recently. I already think it's exhausting facing DG but if they start pumping out ten 4W T5 5++/5+++ flying abominations for a grand 340 pts I think I'm done. He intends on buffing them with a spell that gives +1D on 6+ to Wound or something like that so in short they'll each be dealing a lot of damage (without AP thank god) in absurd numbers, and with that Frustratingly Resilient stuff I don't see how I can kill them. I'm not even sure 4 Dakkabots with WoM would wipe them to be honest.
Well, good news is the most he can run is three now. Which is good, because it will take about 5 Wrathbots to drop one a turn, generally (and with really loose math).
Yeah I misunderstood, it's a unit of 9 he's going to run. I don't have 5 Kastelans anyway, and as a matter of curiosity I did the maths for a match-up of 3 Dragoons vs 6 Plague Drones (both 204 pts) and I concluded (at least from that single match-up) that Plague Drones are pure madness. Like, "what the hell were you thinking GW" madness. I'd need to run more match-ups to have a more stable opinion but doing their maths is a pain so not right now.
3 Dragoons vs 6 Plague Drones:
- 3 Dragoons: 5,33W inflicted, with rerolls of 1 to Hit 6,22W, with Conqueror Imperative + rerolls of 1 to Hit 11,41W to the 6 Plague Drones, killing almost two of them;
- 6 Plague Drones (with Nurgle Locus): 10,21W inflicted, and with rerolls of 1 to Hit 11,42W.
And that's without counting the psychic power that buffs their Damage on a 7+ while giving +1 to Hit. They're almost twice as efficient as Dragoons in that match-up.
Oh, Plague Drones. I was thinking Foetid Bloat Drones. Jeez, GW needs to get better with names. Though at least it isn't Khorne stuff, which is just Blood- attached to some other word. lol
I have zero interaction with Plague Drones, so I defer to your knowledge there.
I feel you for the Chaos names The worst is all the little characters from DG: "Oh here's MacNabb Stinkalot, he gives x to my army while Topper Dungmeddler gives y to this" and the models are hard to distinguish as well.
The FAQ doesn't affect refusal to yield as it's not a wound ignoring mechanic. It's a death ignoring mechanic. They stack just fine.
Huh, I guess that's true. As I said, I've never used them so never thought about it too much. I also think that's RAW rather than RAI but what do I know?
I actually think it’s intended to bypass the feel no pain restriction in the same way that infiltration is intended to bypass the deep striking restrictions. The mechanics work in a completely different way as well, for example:
Lascannon hits Electro priest for 6 damage. That priest then has to make six 5+ invuls to survive. he then needs to roll another 6 to be saved by the feel no pain mechanic, for ALL the failed saves.
Same Priest with RTY, same 6 damage and six 5+ saves. As soon as one of those saves is failed and he also fails his 5+ feel no pain, all other damage is discard, the model would be deemed dead. If you then make your RTY roll of 6+ it stays alive with 1W remaining. Also, i dont know of any other rule that protects a model from dying to failed morale.
posted this in the army lists but didnt get any answers, so what do you think of this list?
Spoiler:
Praise the Omnissiah. I have small 1000 Friendly tournament coming up and would like some C+C about a proposed list, in the process of building and painting it so would be easier to know if its complete garbage now
Forge world : Stygies VIII
Battalion Detachment
HQ Tech-priest Dominus - 129
eradication ray, phosphor serpenta
warlord- monitor malevolus
relic- raiment of the technomartyr
Tech-priest Enginseer - 47
Troops
5 Skitarii Rangers - 85
2 transuranic arquebus
5 Skitarii Rangers - 85
2 transuranic arquebus
10 Skitarii Vanguards - 108
2 Plasma caliver
10 Skitarii Vanguards - 108
2 Plasma caliver
Fast attack
2 Sydonian Drgoons 136
Heavy Support
Onager Dunecrawler - 145
Neutron Laser and cognis heavy stubber, cognis heavy stubber, Broad Spectrum Data Tether
Onager Dunecrawler - 145
Neutron Laser and cognis heavy stubber, cognis heavy stubber, Broad Spectrum Data Tether
Total 998 - 8CP
The plan is to castle around the tech priest dominus with the 2 onagers and screen with the 10 man vanguards and hopefully infiltrate the unit of 2 dragoons in for first turn charges. I can change points around to get 10 vanguard with 3 plasma calivers and enhanced data tether and 10 vanguard with 3 arc rifles and enhanced data tether if that might work out better
The FAQ doesn't affect refusal to yield as it's not a wound ignoring mechanic. It's a death ignoring mechanic. They stack just fine.
Huh, I guess that's true. As I said, I've never used them so never thought about it too much. I also think that's RAW rather than RAI but what do I know?
I actually think it’s intended to bypass the feel no pain restriction in the same way that infiltration is intended to bypass the deep striking restrictions. The mechanics work in a completely different way as well, for example:
Lascannon hits Electro priest for 6 damage. That priest then has to make six 5+ invuls to survive. he then needs to roll another 6 to be saved by the feel no pain mechanic, for ALL the failed saves.
Same Priest with RTY, same 6 damage and six 5+ saves. As soon as one of those saves is failed and he also fails his 5+ feel no pain, all other damage is discard, the model would be deemed dead. If you then make your RTY roll of 6+ it stays alive with 1W remaining. Also, i dont know of any other rule that protects a model from dying to failed morale.
Edited to use electro priest example.
Wait a sec... if you are shot with a Lascannon, you roll your 5++ save once. If you fail, then you take damage and then you roll for Fanatical Devotion six times, because that triggers on "losing a wound" which is the Inflict Damage step under Resolve Attacks (p181).
Refuse to Yield (per new FAQ) only triggers on the loss of the last wound that would cause that model to be removed. You then can roll and on a 6 that damage is ignored. If it is a 1W model and takes six damage, you would roll that each time you failed your 5++ save (because you can only utilize one wound-negating effect per the new FAQ).
Hey guys. To move things in a slightly different direction(at least until the next big ITC tourney anyone up for discussing competitive mono faction for 500/750/1000 point games. Anyone got any thoughts for best builds etc?
Stygies Batallion 500
TPE
TPE
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
3x Dragoons
1x Las Balistari
Just shy of 500 points, anyone think that would fare quite well as an escalation league army?
The FAQ doesn't affect refusal to yield as it's not a wound ignoring mechanic. It's a death ignoring mechanic. They stack just fine.
Huh, I guess that's true. As I said, I've never used them so never thought about it too much. I also think that's RAW rather than RAI but what do I know?
I actually think it’s intended to bypass the feel no pain restriction in the same way that infiltration is intended to bypass the deep striking restrictions. The mechanics work in a completely different way as well, for example:
Lascannon hits Electro priest for 6 damage. That priest then has to make six 5+ invuls to survive. he then needs to roll another 6 to be saved by the feel no pain mechanic, for ALL the failed saves.
Same Priest with RTY, same 6 damage and six 5+ saves. As soon as one of those saves is failed and he also fails his 5+ feel no pain, all other damage is discard, the model would be deemed dead. If you then make your RTY roll of 6+ it stays alive with 1W remaining. Also, i dont know of any other rule that protects a model from dying to failed morale.
Edited to use electro priest example.
Wait a sec... if you are shot with a Lascannon, you roll your 5++ save once. If you fail, then you take damage and then you roll for Fanatical Devotion six times, because that triggers on "losing a wound" which is the Inflict Damage step under Resolve Attacks (p181).
Refuse to Yield (per new FAQ) only triggers on the loss of the last wound that would cause that model to be removed. You then can roll and on a 6 that damage is ignored. If it is a 1W model and takes six damage, you would roll that each time you failed your 5++ save (because you can only utilize one wound-negating effect per the new FAQ).
An FAQ will likely change it, but I'd have thought that the RtY is something that comes after the resolve damage phase from a single weapon. Guy gets hit, fails to save, takes 6 wounds, FD's two of those and then takes 4 wounds which is enough to remove him as a casualty. The other three wounds don't cause him to be removed (though if it were a Sicarian it'd be the second wound going through that you'd RtY against). Wounds don't transfer over unless they're mortal, the excess disappear when the guy dies. Guy now tests to see if he isn't dead - on a 6 he isn't. The wound that killed him is negated and the others have gone because we've moved onto the next stage - rule book specifically states "If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect." RtY only kicks in after a model has been destroyed.
As for basic servitors, they just need to be able to take an extra ranged weapon or have the servo arm reduced by half. Let them specialise and they get good. Three heavy bolters/one servo for current cost isn't that bad a deal, and four is a steal. 50pts for an IG heavy weapon team with a 4W 4+ save (or that and an extra 3 shots) vs 42 for the same guns and 6W at 5+ save?
aldo1234 wrote: posted this in the army lists but didnt get any answers, so what do you think of this list?
Spoiler:
Praise the Omnissiah. I have small 1000 Friendly tournament coming up and would like some C+C about a proposed list, in the process of building and painting it so would be easier to know if its complete garbage now
Forge world : Stygies VIII
Battalion Detachment
HQ Tech-priest Dominus - 129
eradication ray, phosphor serpenta
warlord- monitor malevolus
relic- raiment of the technomartyr
Tech-priest Enginseer - 47
Troops
5 Skitarii Rangers - 85
2 transuranic arquebus
5 Skitarii Rangers - 85
2 transuranic arquebus
10 Skitarii Vanguards - 108
2 Plasma caliver
10 Skitarii Vanguards - 108
2 Plasma caliver
Fast attack
2 Sydonian Drgoons 136
Heavy Support
Onager Dunecrawler - 145
Neutron Laser and cognis heavy stubber, cognis heavy stubber, Broad Spectrum Data Tether
Onager Dunecrawler - 145
Neutron Laser and cognis heavy stubber, cognis heavy stubber, Broad Spectrum Data Tether
Total 998 - 8CP
The plan is to castle around the tech priest dominus with the 2 onagers and screen with the 10 man vanguards and hopefully infiltrate the unit of 2 dragoons in for first turn charges. I can change points around to get 10 vanguard with 3 plasma calivers and enhanced data tether and 10 vanguard with 3 arc rifles and enhanced data tether if that might work out better
At 1000 points, Vanguard are actually pretty good, especially against multiwound enemies. Rangers are not bad against other infantry as well. Take 4x MSUs of Vanguard with single Calivers instead of the 10x setup you have. (Though I guess you can buff them with the Doctrina if you keep them this way... your call.) Drop at least one set of the Arquebuses, since they probably won't make back their points. You can also drop the Phosphor Serpenta on the TPD. You may also want to consider turning one or even two of the Neutrons to Icarus Crawlers.
With the spare points, take a third Dragoon for sure.
The FAQ doesn't affect refusal to yield as it's not a wound ignoring mechanic. It's a death ignoring mechanic. They stack just fine.
Huh, I guess that's true. As I said, I've never used them so never thought about it too much. I also think that's RAW rather than RAI but what do I know?
I actually think it’s intended to bypass the feel no pain restriction in the same way that infiltration is intended to bypass the deep striking restrictions. The mechanics work in a completely different way as well, for example:
Lascannon hits Electro priest for 6 damage. That priest then has to make six 5+ invuls to survive. he then needs to roll another 6 to be saved by the feel no pain mechanic, for ALL the failed saves.
Same Priest with RTY, same 6 damage and six 5+ saves. As soon as one of those saves is failed and he also fails his 5+ feel no pain, all other damage is discard, the model would be deemed dead. If you then make your RTY roll of 6+ it stays alive with 1W remaining. Also, i dont know of any other rule that protects a model from dying to failed morale.
Edited to use electro priest example.
Wait a sec... if you are shot with a Lascannon, you roll your 5++ save once. If you fail, then you take damage and then you roll for Fanatical Devotion six times, because that triggers on "losing a wound" which is the Inflict Damage step under Resolve Attacks (p181).
Refuse to Yield (per new FAQ) only triggers on the loss of the last wound that would cause that model to be removed. You then can roll and on a 6 that damage is ignored. If it is a 1W model and takes six damage, you would roll that each time you failed your 5++ save (because you can only utilize one wound-negating effect per the new FAQ).
An FAQ will likely change it, but I'd have thought that the RtY is something that comes after the resolve damage phase from a single weapon. Guy gets hit, fails to save, takes 6 wounds, FD's two of those and then takes 4 wounds which is enough to remove him as a casualty. The other three wounds don't cause him to be removed (though if it were a Sicarian it'd be the second wound going through that you'd RtY against). Wounds don't transfer over unless they're mortal, the excess disappear when the guy dies. Guy now tests to see if he isn't dead - on a 6 he isn't. The wound that killed him is negated and the others have gone because we've moved onto the next stage - rule book specifically states "If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect." RtY only kicks in after a model has been destroyed.
As for basic servitors, they just need to be able to take an extra ranged weapon or have the servo arm reduced by half. Let them specialise and they get good. Three heavy bolters/one servo for current cost isn't that bad a deal, and four is a steal. 50pts for an IG heavy weapon team with a 4W 4+ save (or that and an extra 3 shots) vs 42 for the same guns and 6W at 5+ save?
My bad, you and emenohpee are right. You only get one 5++ invul for the 6 dmg, then six fanatical devotion saves. The rest still stands though imo. It’s only when the model is considered dead (or flees) that you make your RtY roll. So any excess non-mortal dmg is lost and RtY isnt affected by the FAQ.
Personally i hope it doesnt get FAQd, it makes the dogma actually worth having.
They have not even been working on fires. They 'want' to start work again this year, but it is a least a year away.
Wtf.
I mean, is anyone truly surprised? I jokingly said that they wouldn't even release it during 8th edition after they missed that rumoured march deadline. Guess the joke is back on me
I’m thinking they need a new head of operations. A no nonsense organised individual. Sticking my partners cv in. If she can organise me and the kids she can have this puppy released by September.
Sort of makes you wonder why forgeworld are in charge of writing rules at all. I'm sure it really isn't this simple but imagine if all forgwrold did was sculpts and GW themselves wrote the rules for them. Just add in all new releases in chapter approved or, more likely, a standalone codex. Forgeworld seems like a well intentioned company that simply doesn't have the expertise nor manpower to truly be run correctly. That sentence sounds harsh but they make a lot of strange descions, to a much higher degree than GW.
Yeah whatever, we won't get transports because GW decided walking to a battlefield was our shtick, and everything they'll include in the book will be either trash, overpriced or incredibly expensive money-wise because FW. I just wish FW didn't exist at this point, all they do is release pay-to-win models and make messy rules.
I would think given the amount of stock they have just changed to last chance...they might be less inclined to bother with Horus heresy at all. Let alone porting it to 8th
Tastyfish wrote: Honestly, probably for the best - they clearly don't quite get 8th edition (hardly surprising as they're still playing 7th).
So at least we'll get Fires on the back of them bringing the Heresy into 8/9th ed...
I hadn't heard they would bring Heresy into 8th. Links?
Less the game all in one go (though I vaguely remember them saying that HH wasn't going to transition to 8th immediately but keep with 7th for the time being when 8th was first announced), I reckon the people are forgeworld are the kind of people who think it's a little inelegant for the series to be split over two game systems - which is quite understandable, so I reckon they'll stick to 7th ed right the way to the Emperor's palace. But they've got IA books bringing over the rest of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence (building off main studio rules), and probably another space marine index as the "as yet undisclosed third book before Fires".
Thought the original brief for Fires was Tau invading a vault/relic world that ended up being a fight between the newest weapons of the Tau'va against forgotten secrets of the Imperium - I'd always assumed at first it was going to be 60% Mentors with old marine stuff, 30% Admech and the couple of Riptides making up the rest. It would have been a crowed book. Proper AdMech vs T'au would be welcome though, if they can get the marine stuff out of the way in an index whilst getting more experience and feedback on how their units work in 8th. Plus you could have a lot of fun with the idea that there is a reason that not of these ancient designs have made it through to the 41st millennium completely unscathed, there's a reason they aren't in common use - ranging from hard to produce replacement parts, missing expertise and fatal flaws in the general design that becomes apparent with more in depth field testing.
I ran my GRAND STRATEGIST, KUROVS, VITAE build. Game one I started with 9CP after pre game spending and spent 14CP total over the game. Game two I spent 21CP. Game three I spent 17CP. This is lower than my simulator suggested, but overall a very strong addition and worth doing. Overall I was very pleased with my list. With better play I would have won my loss.
First opponent: John's 4x knights. My real first opponent was my nemesis who did that 3" movement every time his poxwalkers died. I had my screenshots ready and was going to shut him down. My list was much tighter this week and my guard were ready to relic of lost cadia all over his ass. But he a family emergency and I played the knights. I eventually shot them off the board. It was almost interesting when he almost got all my baslisks but didn't. My smash captains rolled great, but he knights were making 3 of 5 six up saves at a time, so there is only so much the smash captains can do. In addition my refunds were running super cold and I couldn't only in death does duty end when I needed to.
Second opponent: michaels imperial soup of BLANGELS, CADIA, RAVENGUARD. I made a critical deployment mistake and rolled three 1s to go first with the +1 and failed to seize. He was able to tie up my robots on turn one with FORLORN FURY because I didn't deploy correctly. He was vastly ahead all game, but I clawed up to a 16-17 loss. I was pleased with my play and army if only I had properly screend the robots. I should have just put them basilisks in front of them and let the robots shoot over them.
Third opponent: mikaels competitve tau. 4x ion cars, riptide, 3x coldstar fusion suits, some shield drones, some stealth suits, and some firesight marksmen. I managed to get first turn and suicided the no overwatch captain smash and burned 8 CP to kill two of his cars on a suicide run. His drones made obscenely good saves versus bolter fire. There was a huge line of sight blocker that prevent either of our real gunlines from shooting so we just traded kills. I racked up bonus points by suiciding troop squads on to the bonus objective every turn and held more every turn but he killed more every turn. Eventually I had his cars dead and put his suits forwards and they all charged some troops, but my seargant in my gaurd squad survived his morale even with me rerolling to try and kill him. This meant his whole army was right in front of my robots but he had pinned in a guard seargant on the objective. I suicided cawl to wound some suits and kill some drones. On the last turn I have all 3 of his suits in front of my untied up and ready to go 5 dakkabots. He insists taht the character rule prevents you from targeting more than one character. This is dead wrong. Like laughably and abusively wrong. But the FAQ won't load. I was up enough that just killing one suit was enough but this was very much a cheat in the face of the rules. After the game we were able to find the PDF and I ground him and the judge down about how the rule plainly says that each MODEL not unit ignores characters less than 10 for determining if a character with less than 10 in the closest. This isn't hard. But tournaments players gonna cheat when they can. My robots should have been able to simply blow all 3 suit commanders away. but he has to cheat and I only get to kill one. I still win 27-16 but these guys
UNIT by UNIT:
cawl was great as always smash captains are just mandatory. Get them in your list right now. Just do it. Put some admechy crap on there if you need to. guardsmen are great. They can get +1 to saves, they move really fast with movemovemove, they have oddly relevant shooting from the mortar dakkabots did dakkabot things, when they weren't losing me the game, they were winning me the game icarus did better than I thought. It has a wide threat range and is pretty consistent at plinking stuff, especially tau stuff. The truoble is that it isn't anti tank, it is anti elite 1 wound things basilisks did basilisk things. They consisnently put a few wounds on somethign that thinks it is safe. they draw crazy threat for their cost and threaten everything in the game ... but never really blow it away scouts are good all around troops that do things that other troops don't. It sucks when your opponent has fast melee stuff that eat them (lemartes), but they got me up on points many times thanks to being out there out of LOS
I wouldn't change much about this list. More dakkabots wouldn't have helped me win due to LOS. Maybe mephiston or lemartes would be more relevant than another smash captain? But that threat of another flat 3 damage beast being out there and maybe me having the CP to deliver that deathblow ... my thinking is that nothing in my army does flat 3 ... only smash captains can do that. So the second one just gives me more options to put that kind of real hurt on something big. Maybe hellhounds would do better than basilisks ... but I am not convinced because they don't threaten high T stuff all game. Basilisks provide that constant "your tank isn't safe" threat that more auto hitting stuff won't bring. Also, i think putting 260 points into melee is all I need. A third hero wouldn't have helped. I needed the shooting I had.
I ran my GRAND STRATEGIST, KUROVS, VITAE build.
Game one I started with 9CP after pre game spending and spent 14CP total over the game.
Game two I spent 21CP.
Game three I spent 17CP.
This is lower than my simulator suggested, but overall a very strong addition and worth doing. Overall I was very pleased with my list. With better play I would have won my loss.
First opponent: John's 4x knights. My real first opponent was my nemesis who did that 3" movement every time his poxwalkers died. I had my screenshots ready and was going to shut him down. My list was much tighter this week and my guard were ready to relic of lost cadia all over his ass. But he a family emergency and I played the knights. I eventually shot them off the board. It was almost interesting when he almost got all my baslisks but didn't. My smash captains rolled great, but he knights were making 3 of 5 six up saves at a time, so there is only so much the smash captains can do. In addition my refunds were running super cold and I couldn't only in death does duty end when I needed to.
Second opponent: michaels imperial soup of BLANGELS, CADIA, RAVENGUARD. I made a critical deployment mistake and rolled three 1s to go first with the +1 and failed to seize. He was able to tie up my robots on turn one with FORLORN FURY because I didn't deploy correctly. He was vastly ahead all game, but I clawed up to a 16-17 loss. I was pleased with my play and army if only I had properly screend the robots. I should have just put them basilisks in front of them and let the robots shoot over them.
Third opponent: mikaels competitve tau. 4x ion cars, riptide, 3x coldstar fusion suits, some shield drones, some stealth suits, and some firesight marksmen. I managed to get first turn and suicided the no overwatch captain smash and burned 8 CP to kill two of his cars on a suicide run. His drones made obscenely good saves versus bolter fire. There was a huge line of sight blocker that prevent either of our real gunlines from shooting so we just traded kills. I racked up bonus points by suiciding troop squads on to the bonus objective every turn and held more every turn but he killed more every turn. Eventually I had his cars dead and put his suits forwards and they all charged some troops, but my seargant in my gaurd squad survived his morale even with me rerolling to try and kill him. This meant his whole army was right in front of my robots but he had pinned in a guard seargant on the objective. I suicided cawl to wound some suits and kill some drones. On the last turn I have all 3 of his suits in front of my untied up and ready to go 5 dakkabots. He insists taht the character rule prevents you from targeting more than one character. This is dead wrong. Like laughably and abusively wrong. But the FAQ won't load. I was up enough that just killing one suit was enough but this was very much a cheat in the face of the rules. After the game we were able to find the PDF and I ground him and the judge down about how the rule plainly says that each MODEL not unit ignores characters less than 10 for determining if a character with less than 10 in the closest. This isn't hard. But tournaments players gonna cheat when they can. My robots should have been able to simply blow all 3 suit commanders away. but he has to cheat and I only get to kill one. I still win 27-16 but these guys
UNIT by UNIT:
cawl was great as always
smash captains are just mandatory. Get them in your list right now. Just do it. Put some admechy crap on there if you need to.
guardsmen are great. They can get +1 to saves, they move really fast with movemovemove, they have oddly relevant shooting from the mortar
dakkabots did dakkabot things, when they weren't losing me the game, they were winning me the game
icarus did better than I thought. It has a wide threat range and is pretty consistent at plinking stuff, especially tau stuff. The truoble is that it isn't anti tank, it is anti elite 1 wound things
basilisks did basilisk things. They consisnently put a few wounds on somethign that thinks it is safe. they draw crazy threat for their cost and threaten everything in the game ... but never really blow it away
scouts are good all around troops that do things that other troops don't. It sucks when your opponent has fast melee stuff that eat them (lemartes), but they got me up on points many times thanks to being out there out of LOS
I wouldn't change much about this list. More dakkabots wouldn't have helped me win due to LOS. Maybe mephiston or lemartes would be more relevant than another smash captain? But that threat of another flat 3 damage beast being out there and maybe me having the CP to deliver that deathblow ... my thinking is that nothing in my army does flat 3 ... only smash captains can do that. So the second one just gives me more options to put that kind of real hurt on something big. Maybe hellhounds would do better than basilisks ... but I am not convinced because they don't threaten high T stuff all game. Basilisks provide that constant "your tank isn't safe" threat that more auto hitting stuff won't bring. Also, i think putting 260 points into melee is all I need. A third hero wouldn't have helped. I needed the shooting I had.
I ran my GRAND STRATEGIST, KUROVS, VITAE build.
Game one I started with 9CP after pre game spending and spent 14CP total over the game.
Game two I spent 21CP.
Game three I spent 17CP.
This is lower than my simulator suggested, but overall a very strong addition and worth doing. Overall I was very pleased with my list. With better play I would have won my loss.
First opponent: John's 4x knights. My real first opponent was my nemesis who did that 3" movement every time his poxwalkers died. I had my screenshots ready and was going to shut him down. My list was much tighter this week and my guard were ready to relic of lost cadia all over his ass. But he a family emergency and I played the knights. I eventually shot them off the board. It was almost interesting when he almost got all my baslisks but didn't. My smash captains rolled great, but he knights were making 3 of 5 six up saves at a time, so there is only so much the smash captains can do. In addition my refunds were running super cold and I couldn't only in death does duty end when I needed to.
Second opponent: michaels imperial soup of BLANGELS, CADIA, RAVENGUARD. I made a critical deployment mistake and rolled three 1s to go first with the +1 and failed to seize. He was able to tie up my robots on turn one with FORLORN FURY because I didn't deploy correctly. He was vastly ahead all game, but I clawed up to a 16-17 loss. I was pleased with my play and army if only I had properly screend the robots. I should have just put them basilisks in front of them and let the robots shoot over them.
Third opponent: mikaels competitve tau. 4x ion cars, riptide, 3x coldstar fusion suits, some shield drones, some stealth suits, and some firesight marksmen. I managed to get first turn and suicided the no overwatch captain smash and burned 8 CP to kill two of his cars on a suicide run. His drones made obscenely good saves versus bolter fire. There was a huge line of sight blocker that prevent either of our real gunlines from shooting so we just traded kills. I racked up bonus points by suiciding troop squads on to the bonus objective every turn and held more every turn but he killed more every turn. Eventually I had his cars dead and put his suits forwards and they all charged some troops, but my seargant in my gaurd squad survived his morale even with me rerolling to try and kill him. This meant his whole army was right in front of my robots but he had pinned in a guard seargant on the objective. I suicided cawl to wound some suits and kill some drones. On the last turn I have all 3 of his suits in front of my untied up and ready to go 5 dakkabots. He insists taht the character rule prevents you from targeting more than one character. This is dead wrong. Like laughably and abusively wrong. But the FAQ won't load. I was up enough that just killing one suit was enough but this was very much a cheat in the face of the rules. After the game we were able to find the PDF and I ground him and the judge down about how the rule plainly says that each MODEL not unit ignores characters less than 10 for determining if a character with less than 10 in the closest. This isn't hard. But tournaments players gonna cheat when they can. My robots should have been able to simply blow all 3 suit commanders away. but he has to cheat and I only get to kill one. I still win 27-16 but these guys
UNIT by UNIT:
cawl was great as always
smash captains are just mandatory. Get them in your list right now. Just do it. Put some admechy crap on there if you need to.
guardsmen are great. They can get +1 to saves, they move really fast with movemovemove, they have oddly relevant shooting from the mortar
dakkabots did dakkabot things, when they weren't losing me the game, they were winning me the game
icarus did better than I thought. It has a wide threat range and is pretty consistent at plinking stuff, especially tau stuff. The truoble is that it isn't anti tank, it is anti elite 1 wound things
basilisks did basilisk things. They consisnently put a few wounds on somethign that thinks it is safe. they draw crazy threat for their cost and threaten everything in the game ... but never really blow it away
scouts are good all around troops that do things that other troops don't. It sucks when your opponent has fast melee stuff that eat them (lemartes), but they got me up on points many times thanks to being out there out of LOS
I wouldn't change much about this list. More dakkabots wouldn't have helped me win due to LOS. Maybe mephiston or lemartes would be more relevant than another smash captain? But that threat of another flat 3 damage beast being out there and maybe me having the CP to deliver that deathblow ... my thinking is that nothing in my army does flat 3 ... only smash captains can do that. So the second one just gives me more options to put that kind of real hurt on something big. Maybe hellhounds would do better than basilisks ... but I am not convinced because they don't threaten high T stuff all game. Basilisks provide that constant "your tank isn't safe" threat that more auto hitting stuff won't bring. Also, i think putting 260 points into melee is all I need. A third hero wouldn't have helped. I needed the shooting I had.
Maybe less Dakkabots? Five seems a bit excessive. Maybe replace a couple with a squad of Dragoons? Might help get the Dakkabots out of combat in case they get stuck in combat again.
I ran my GRAND STRATEGIST, KUROVS, VITAE build.
Game one I started with 9CP after pre game spending and spent 14CP total over the game.
Game two I spent 21CP.
Game three I spent 17CP.
This is lower than my simulator suggested, but overall a very strong addition and worth doing.
Oh, so you opted for a spearhead? I am not super sure about that. I think we need more bodies to block with since we're putting so much into the assault now.
Wulfey wrote: Second opponent: michaels imperial soup of BLANGELS, CADIA, RAVENGUARD. I made a critical deployment mistake and rolled three 1s to go first with the +1 and failed to seize. He was able to tie up my robots on turn one with FORLORN FURY because I didn't deploy correctly. He was vastly ahead all game, but I clawed up to a 16-17 loss. I was pleased with my play and army if only I had properly screend the robots. I should have just put them basilisks in front of them and let the robots shoot over them.
Case in point. More bodies. I almost always put my Basilisks behind my Robots though. Actually blocks your LOS.
Wulfey wrote: cawl was great as always
smash captains are just mandatory. Get them in your list right now. Just do it. Put some admechy crap on there if you need to.
guardsmen are great. They can get +1 to saves, they move really fast with movemovemove, they have oddly relevant shooting from the mortar
dakkabots did dakkabot things, when they weren't losing me the game, they were winning me the game
icarus did better than I thought. It has a wide threat range and is pretty consistent at plinking stuff, especially tau stuff. The truoble is that it isn't anti tank, it is anti elite 1 wound things
basilisks did basilisk things. They consisnently put a few wounds on somethign that thinks it is safe. they draw crazy threat for their cost and threaten everything in the game ... but never really blow it away
scouts are good all around troops that do things that other troops don't. It sucks when your opponent has fast melee stuff that eat them (lemartes), but they got me up on points many times thanks to being out there out of LOS
I wouldn't change much about this list. More dakkabots wouldn't have helped me win due to LOS. Maybe mephiston or lemartes would be more relevant than another smash captain? But that threat of another flat 3 damage beast being out there and maybe me having the CP to deliver that deathblow ... my thinking is that nothing in my army does flat 3 ... only smash captains can do that. So the second one just gives me more options to put that kind of real hurt on something big. Maybe hellhounds would do better than basilisks ... but I am not convinced because they don't threaten high T stuff all game. Basilisks provide that constant "your tank isn't safe" threat that more auto hitting stuff won't bring. Also, i think putting 260 points into melee is all I need. A third hero wouldn't have helped. I needed the shooting I had.
I still think it is weird that the second Captain has a Veritas Vitae. I cannot imagine your opponent ignoring them. Might be the first units to die. In addition, you have to spread your stratagems around.
I still think Lemartes is the most cost efficient choice. He grants massive consistency. Deep Strike Slam and Lemartes in, have the Slam charge first, then the Lemartes to the same or a different target.
Mephiston is less reliable (especially if you're up against anything with good Deny), but also strong. He just needs to dump all of the buffs on himself.
In any case, great report.
Wulfey wrote: I think bolter scouts with a stormbolter/chainsword on seargant is the best possible equip. It gets you the most dice, most of the time.
I'm still sticking to Pistol/Knives and Pistol/Chainsword. Scouts must must must be able to function as an assault screen that you deploy aggressively forward. There are so many matchups and situations where they might end up hurting you more than helping you if they don't get that. Orks, Tyranids, Cultists, any enemy assault that can fly...
Oh, and don't forget. They get Red Thirst. You can wound Primarchs on a 4+ with those Knives. Haha.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Five is excessive? Nah. Depending on the meta, six is necessary sometimes, like if you absolutely must kill Magnus on T1.
If you're still struggling to kill Magnus T1 you're probably behind the times meta wise.
Not everyone wants to build the latest greatest list. Some folks build and paint a list and live with it as things change. *shrug* My point was 6 Robots can end a tough target in a single volley and sometimes we need that.
My robot's heads peek over the tracks of the basilisks. Next game I am going to put the basilisks in front as a wall. Maybe run them as TALLARN so that they can move and shoot. The problem with my screen is that I deployed spread out to stop the deep strike when I should have been much more worried about the FORLORN FURY granting a 36" threat on turn 1. We had the pointed dawn of war deployment so the FORLORN FURY threat was much larger than I thought it was.
Wulfey wrote: My robot's heads peek over the tracks of the basilisks. Next game I am going to put the basilisks in front as a wall. Maybe run them as TALLARN so that they can move and shoot. The problem with my screen is that I deployed spread out to stop the deep strike when I should have been much more worried about the FORLORN FURY granting a 36" threat on turn 1. We had the pointed dawn of war deployment so the FORLORN FURY threat was much larger than I thought it was.
The problem is often the Earthshaker barrel and gun shield.
Yeah. Forlorn Fury is great. You can even do it yourself since Slamguinius is also Death Company with the Visions stratagem.
That doesn't look like the Cyraxus scheme on the Thanatar, but I could be wrong. Maybe they decided to spend a few months arguing about what the planet's paint scheme would be changed to.
Anyone catch the spikey bits rumours for Imp knight point reductions? Some talk of trying to make Armigers not suck. Not sure that helps Admech much but a boon is a boon
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone catch the spikey bits rumours for Imp knight point reductions? Some talk of trying to make Armigers not suck. Not sure that helps Admech much but a boon is a boon
For giggles compare an imperial knight crusader to a shadowsword. The crusader has like half the mathhammer firepower and threatens heavy things dramatically less for the same points.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone catch the spikey bits rumours for Imp knight point reductions? Some talk of trying to make Armigers not suck. Not sure that helps Admech much but a boon is a boon
For giggles compare an imperial knight crusader to a shadowsword. The crusader has like half the mathhammer firepower and threatens heavy things dramatically less for the same points.
That was my first purchase in coming back to 40k after an 20 year absence. I guess the plus side is I can bring it to non competitive games...and everyone in my FLG just smiles and says cool model watch it get destroyed round 1.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone catch the spikey bits rumours for Imp knight point reductions? Some talk of trying to make Armigers not suck. Not sure that helps Admech much but a boon is a boon
For giggles compare an imperial knight crusader to a shadowsword. The crusader has like half the mathhammer firepower and threatens heavy things dramatically less for the same points.
But the Shadowsword, ironically, does not have a sword. Or feet.
Anyhow, if they get the points for a minimum Crusader down to around 450, I would seriously consider one.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone catch the spikey bits rumours for Imp knight point reductions? Some talk of trying to make Armigers not suck. Not sure that helps Admech much but a boon is a boon
For giggles compare an imperial knight crusader to a shadowsword. The crusader has like half the mathhammer firepower and threatens heavy things dramatically less for the same points.
But the Shadowsword, ironically, does not have a sword. Or feet.
Anyhow, if they get the points for a minimum Crusader down to around 450, I would seriously consider one.
The Crusader doesn't have a sword either. Still, I consider it a bit spurious because it's like comparing a hurricane bolter to a lascannon and then saying the lascannon kills tanks better.
The Crusader gets 12+3d6+2d3 shots, for a total of 17-36, with an average of 26.5 shots.
The Shadowsword gets 9-15, with an average of 12. So I would hope it's better at killing larger targets, because it's considerably worse (less than half as good) at killing hordes.
The Crusader doesn't have a sword either. Still, I consider it a bit spurious because it's like comparing a hurricane bolter to a lascannon and then saying the lascannon kills tanks better.
The Crusader gets 12+3d6+2d3 shots, for a total of 17-36, with an average of 26.5 shots.
The Shadowsword gets 9-15, with an average of 12. So I would hope it's better at killing larger targets, because it's considerably worse (less than half as good) at killing hordes.
It gets three S8 feet attacks to the Shadowsword's S9 tread attack.
But the happy compromise would be to lower base cost to 300, free Reapers, 5 point Gauntlet, and nerf Feet to 2 attacks (or give -1 to hit). Crusader would no longer be the clear best choice; Warden and Errant would become super popular, and Gallant would at least be viable
Id love to have seen how he played this, virtually no long range fire. I guess we’re assuming no vehicles at the moment so might as well go full infantry counter.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone catch the spikey bits rumours for Imp knight point reductions? Some talk of trying to make Armigers not suck. Not sure that helps Admech much but a boon is a boon
For giggles compare an imperial knight crusader to a shadowsword. The crusader has like half the mathhammer firepower and threatens heavy things dramatically less for the same points.
But the Shadowsword, ironically, does not have a sword. Or feet.
Anyhow, if they get the points for a minimum Crusader down to around 450, I would seriously consider one.
The Crusader doesn't have a sword either. Still, I consider it a bit spurious because it's like comparing a hurricane bolter to a lascannon and then saying the lascannon kills tanks better.
The Crusader gets 12+3d6+2d3 shots, for a total of 17-36, with an average of 26.5 shots.
The Shadowsword gets 9-15, with an average of 12. So I would hope it's better at killing larger targets, because it's considerably worse (less than half as good) at killing hordes.
The shadowsword has 30 heavy bolter shots a turn that can shoot into combat. Knights need a lot of help.
Id love to have seen how he played this, virtually no long range fire. I guess we’re assuming no vehicles at the moment so might as well go full infantry counter.
I am not seeing why he brings the astra militarum section that he does. Why bring the valkyrie? That thing could be 3x5 scouts and 4CP. Fulgurites and Smash captains love CP. I can't see how that valkyrie thing could possibly do the damage that his melee guys could do with some more CP. His snipers generate 6 arquebus and 6 bolter equivalent 3+ shots per turn.
He uses the Valkyrie to charge turn 1 into a super shooty unit if needed. Sniper bases can deepstrike and take up a lot of board space for really cheep. List is not amazing, I’ve played him plenty of times and you just have to stand your ground as he is more of a bully player and can play “loose” some would say so have to watch him. He has never beaten me yet so I can’t complain.
So GW is changing their GT format to 1750 points? What are your opinions on AdMech at a lower point level? Would our lists change drastically?
It's a mixed bag. On the plus side, our units are much stronger the lower the points go because we don't have super expensive HQs and efficient large units. On the downside, we very much depend on the Soup to shore up our weaknesses. Lower points hurts that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IVIOOSE wrote: He uses the Valkyrie to charge turn 1 into a super shooty unit if needed. Sniper bases can deepstrike and take up a lot of board space for really cheep. List is not amazing, I’ve played him plenty of times and you just have to stand your ground as he is more of a bully player and can play “loose” some would say so have to watch him. He has never beaten me yet so I can’t complain.
Ah. Yeah. Seems really hit or miss if you don't blow the enemy out on turn one. Would not be my preference for a tourney list...
So GW is changing their GT format to 1750 points? What are your opinions on AdMech at a lower point level? Would our lists change drastically?
It's a mixed bag. On the plus side, our units are much stronger the lower the points go because we don't have super expensive HQs and efficient large units. On the downside, we very much depend on the Soup to shore up our weaknesses. Lower points hurts that.
So how would you adjust your list for a 1750 points?
Ideasweasel wrote:Well i hope you win but in a way you already deserve a medal. 14 dragoon boxes purchased, assembled, and painted.
A Blood Angels Captain with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, as well the Angel Wing relic jumppack. AKA Slamguinius or Captain Slam.
I personally dislike calling him Captain Smash because Captain Smash will always ever be an Iron Hands Captain on a Bike with a Thunder Hammer and the Shield Eternal.
A Blood Angels Captain with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, as well the Angel Wing relic jumppack. AKA Slamguinius or Captain Slam.
I personally dislike calling him Captain Smash because Captain Smash will always ever be an Iron Hands Captain on a Bike with a Thunder Hammer and the Shield Eternal.
what makes him so strong? are there specific BLANGELS stratagems to use with him?
A Blood Angels Captain with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, as well the Angel Wing relic jumppack. AKA Slamguinius or Captain Slam.
I personally dislike calling him Captain Smash because Captain Smash will always ever be an Iron Hands Captain on a Bike with a Thunder Hammer and the Shield Eternal.
what makes him so strong? are there specific BLANGELS stratagems to use with him?
The Mechanicus aligned houses don't seem to have any particular synergy with Knight of the Cog, though that might change if some of the strats and relics replicate other factions traits (which was true for us and Tau at the very least).
But that combined with the fact Mortan and Griffiths have very similar powers, makes me think we're going to see some big things from the strats (*fingers crossed).
Really? Don't we need the Questor Mechanicus keyword to interact? Otherwise, we have to use the Imperium keyword. I mean, forget Knight of the Cog or repairs for a moment. Machine Spirit Resurgent is clearly the most important stratagem we have for Knights.
Raven: When they make Advance moves, treat Heavy weapons as Assault weapons.
Taranis: 6+ FNP against Mortal Wounds.
Krast: RR hits when charging, charged, or via Heroic Intervention against TITAN keyword
Vulker: Rerolls 1’s when targeting the closest enemy unit during the shooting phase.
So... Vulker for Crusaders, it seems. That or Raven; we still get-1 to hit without any rerolls though. Maybe Taranis, but I think plenty of non-mortal wounds is just as threatening to us.
Suzuteo wrote: Really? Don't we need the Questor Mechanicus keyword to do some of those things? Otherwise, we have to use the Imperium keyword.
Raven: When they make Advance moves, treat Heavy weapons as Assault weapons.
Taranis: 6+ FNP against Mortal Wounds.
Krast: RR hits when charging, charged, or via Heroic Intervention against TITAN keyword
Vulker: Rerolls 1’s when targeting the closest enemy unit during the shooting phase.
So... Vulker for Crusaders, it seems. That or Raven; we still get-1 to hit without any rerolls though. Maybe Taranis, but I think plenty of non-mortal wounds is just as threatening to us.
New article:When they make Advance moves, treat Heavy weapons as Assault weapons.
Old article: Raven advance & shoot with no penaly, heavy weap become assault type.
The new one is probably right because the old one seems to indicate house raven could advance and fire heavy weapons with no penalties.But who knows?
EDIT: From bolter and chainsword "Martin and Robin Cruddace live on Warhammer TV just confirmed the Imperial Knights is the next Codex and due very, very soon!
Well Vulker and Raven seem to be the good ones for admech. But the alternate armiger model helliger/helverin sounds to me like they would have flamers. Advancing with flamers on a already speedy model might actually be really useful. It might come down to the unique stratagems for me or possibly freeblades if they implement those in a fun way.
If the knight codex can get us some solid CC units or good cheap anti horde models that would really help us out. Advancing armigers or helligers with solid melee or heavy duty flamers would make great distraction carnifexes.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone heard the rumours of 60p armiger and 45 point knight reductions. Not massive but is it enough to get anyone to use any?
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
60pt reduction on the Armigers would at least let me consider it. Not sure if it's good at that price but at least then I don't feel like I'm actively handicapping myself. I've tried running them in casual games and at the price they come in now it's really rough even if you're trying to intentionally tone your list down.
The speed they have is very surprising, if they get a decent way to fight hordes in combat or shooting and perhaps a more useful carapace weapons I could see them having some legs. They really need something like a heavy phosphor gun like the onager and Kastellans can carry instead of a heavy stubber or melta gun. It feels like they're missing a special rule or something honestly, they really don't seem to work how they're intended to other than being stupid fast.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone heard the rumours of 60p armiger and 45 point knight reductions. Not massive but is it enough to get anyone to use any?
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
60pt reduction on the Armigers would at least let me consider it. Not sure if it's good at that price but at least then I don't feel like I'm actively handicapping myself. I've tried running them in casual games and at the price they come in now it's really rough even if you're trying to intentionally tone your list down.
The speed they have is very surprising, if they get a decent way to fight hordes in combat or shooting and perhaps a more useful carapace weapons I could see them having some legs. They really need something like a heavy phosphor gun like the onager and Kastellans can carry instead of a heavy stubber or melta gun. It feels like they're missing a special rule or something honestly, they really don't seem to work how they're intended to other than being stupid fast.
I have visions of a walker army with some of them and lots of dragoons and ballistari. Would look ace but probably wouldn’t do very well
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone heard the rumours of 60p armiger and 45 point knight reductions. Not massive but is it enough to get anyone to use any?
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
60pt reduction on the Armigers would at least let me consider it. Not sure if it's good at that price but at least then I don't feel like I'm actively handicapping myself. I've tried running them in casual games and at the price they come in now it's really rough even if you're trying to intentionally tone your list down.
The speed they have is very surprising, if they get a decent way to fight hordes in combat or shooting and perhaps a more useful carapace weapons I could see them having some legs. They really need something like a heavy phosphor gun like the onager and Kastellans can carry instead of a heavy stubber or melta gun. It feels like they're missing a special rule or something honestly, they really don't seem to work how they're intended to other than being stupid fast.
I have visions of a walker army with some of them and lots of dragoons and ballistari. Would look ace but probably wouldn’t do very well
Depends entirely on how much the new weapons cost. But 65 points off makes Armigers viable as a mobile tank. 45 points off the Knight is also nice; it's a free Stormspear. I actually hoped for just making Reapers free and 25 points off the base Knight, since Feet are too strong, but I'll take it.
Would not be surprised if Death got 10th place. That list does not seem consistent enough for a major tourney.
As for Armiger weapons, I would be happy with a super-heavy pistol flamer. Haha.
I used to run a walker-heavy army in the Index days. Depending on the changes, I think we can run it again, actually. But the biggest problem is that even with the point reductions, we have very few leftover points to play around with. And it's readily apparent that I would not have much use for Lance Armigers, since my Knight, Dragoons, and Ballistarii all handle vehicles plenty well on their own. I actually would need anti-infantry more than anything. So maybe Flamer Armigers or the ever-flexible Icarus Crawlers.
Here's a base list:
Spoiler:
MT Battalion Detachment - 193
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Relic: Kurov's Aquila
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword
I have visions of a walker army with some of them and lots of dragoons and ballistari. Would look ace but probably wouldn’t do very well
Depends entirely on how much the new weapons cost. But 65 points off makes Armigers viable as a mobile tank. 45 points off the Knight is also nice; it's a free Stormspear. I actually hoped for just making Reapers free and 25 points off the base Knight, since Feet are too strong, but I'll take it.
Would not be surprised if Death got 10th place. That list does not seem consistent enough for a major tourney.
As for Armiger weapons, I would be happy with a super-heavy pistol flamer. Haha.
I used to run a walker-heavy army in the Index days. Depending on the changes, I think we can run it again, actually. But the biggest problem is that even with the point reductions, we have very few leftover points to play around with. And it's readily apparent that I would not have much use for Lance Armigers, since my Knight, Dragoons, and Ballistarii all handle vehicles plenty well on their own. I actually would need anti-infantry more than anything. So maybe Flamer Armigers or the ever-flexible Icarus Crawlers.
https://spikeybits.com/2018/05/knights-playable-again-point-change-rumors.html I assume those point rumours are from this link, which lowers armigers by 60 points not 65. More importantly it only lowers the big knight by 25 points, not 45. Although they (I assume spikey bits themselves and not the source) later state that it would make the knights base cost 285 points when it would actually be 295
On top of that the gatling cannon would be lowered by 20 points, so it would be a 45 points drop for a lot of people but that doesn't seem like it's enough. I doubt they lower the cost of the stormspear rocket pod, that one is priced fairly already. so the only other points they could shave off then would be the 30/35 for the close combat weapons. Sure they could use a price drop but I'd rather them actually be useful.
Arc Rifles are hammers in search of nails. Radium Carbines are better against most multi-wound targets, and Galvanic Rifles have better range and do a good job plinking infantry.
Your best bet is to let them count as Plasma Calivers. (Harsh, but true. They look pretty cool.)
PiñaColada wrote: https://spikeybits.com/2018/05/knights-playable-again-point-change-rumors.html
I assume those point rumours are from this link, which lowers armigers by 60 points not 65. More importantly it only lowers the big knight by 25 points, not 45. Although they (I assume spikey bits themselves and not the source) later state that it would make the knights base cost 285 points when it would actually be 295
On top of that the gatling cannon would be lowered by 20 points, so it would be a 45 points drop for a lot of people but that doesn't seem like it's enough. I doubt they lower the cost of the stormspear rocket pod, that one is priced fairly already. so the only other points they could shave off then would be the 30/35 for the close combat weapons. Sure they could use a price drop but I'd rather them actually be useful.
Yeah, not sure what to make of the math. If we shave 60 points off a Crusader, they become more appealing, but I really want to see how their relics and stratagems work. if only Questor Mechanicus get Machine Spirit Resurgent, then Imperial Knights as a standalone aren't happening. That being said, I really want a Freeblade with double Avengers. Double Avenger and Feet would definitely make these Knights great again.
But then again, I hope Knights don't become too good. Otherwise Shadowswords will be more common. (You might as well kiss your tanks and big characters goodbye.)
I am relatively new to AdMech, but I am going to run a squad of Vanguard with Arc weapons instead of plasma (already have a plasma squad as that is the obvious weapon for them) and see how it goes. I don't want to gimp my sit-back-and-shoot rangers with a weapon that is shorter range than their basic one and really wants to be within 12" for maximum effect. Vanguard on the other hand pile in towards their enemies and will probably briefly end up at rapid fire range where they will be more effective that the rad carbines.
Also, from a purely buying/modelling perspective, you only get one of most special weapons in a box of 10 dudes, but can take 3 special weapons in the squad, so there is efficiency to having squads with 3 different loadouts (I have been assembling my boxes as half Vanguard half Rangers to use both the "one-handed" main weapon poses too...)
I will also have an arc pistol on the Alpha to round it off...
Suzuteo wrote: All my radium weapons have been kitbashed into lasguns and laspistols. xD
Why? Are you running them as counts-as guard, or don't you like the aesthetic?
Mark.
1) I'm cheap and having infantry that can count as Vanguard, Rangers, or Guardsmen is nice. (Only one at a time, of course.)
2) This is an AdMech army, so if I am forced to use Guard to be competitive, they might as well look the part.
Dragoons are going nowhere, they're still among the best Imperium CC units out there. Also they're AdMech, so can infiltrate with Stygies VIII, which is another reason they're awesome. I had a little tournament at 1000 pts using Beta rules this week-end, and each time I had first turn, was playing 3 Dragoons, they were really really good.
Infiltrate, -2" to hit outside of 12" and telsa on a 4+ for one CP with S8 AP-1 weapons.
If Armigers can compete in that role, the bigger knights have a problem. No way 4 dragoons doesn't out-CC a Armiger at 160pts, but it's a "glass" cannon with no ranged weapon to really speak of.
Point for point, I think 6x Dragoons are actually the hardest hitting Imperium CC unit. They just instantly demolish anything they touch. I think that unit with the Doctrina put out 32-33 S8 AP-1 2D hits for 408 points?
Meanwhile, they have -2 to hit outside of 12" and can first turn alpha strike. I can imagine Guard bringing 6x just to support them.
Suzuteo wrote: Point for point, I think 6x Dragoons are actually the hardest hitting Imperium CC unit. They just instantly demolish anything they touch. I think that unit with the Doctrina put out 32-33 S8 AP-1 2D hits for 408 points?
Meanwhile, they have -2 to hit outside of 12" and can first turn alpha strike. I can imagine Guard bringing 6x just to support them.
Is 6 the sweet spot or are folks taking 4-5 and finding equal success?
I was just in a tournament 1650 and i had a unit of 5 and a unit of 4. the 4 man unit was charged by 2 shield captains and a blood angels smash captain. i interrupted and killed the blood angels captain and he swung in death and killed 2, both shield captains killed another 1 and i still had 1 left. so they can take a nasty hit and keep on ticking. their worst enemy is the blood angel captain as they do the most reliable damage to them but the shield captains just bounce off. i think i like units of 5 but going to try 2 units of 6 dragoons and a unit of 4 twin autocannon ironstriders at the next tournament
IVIOOSE wrote: I was just in a tournament 1650 and i had a unit of 5 and a unit of 4. the 4 man unit was charged by 2 shield captains and a blood angels smash captain. i interrupted and killed the blood angels captain and he swung in death and killed 2, both shield captains killed another 1 and i still had 1 left. so they can take a nasty hit and keep on ticking. their worst enemy is the blood angel captain as they do the most reliable damage to them but the shield captains just bounce off. i think i like units of 5 but going to try 2 units of 6 dragoons and a unit of 4 twin autocannon ironstriders at the next tournament
Nice. I don’t have many so have some saving up to do! I want to try fielding at least a group of 5. I see some people taking 3 but then think conq strat is kinda wasted on a smaller number right.
Suzuteo wrote: Point for point, I think 6x Dragoons are actually the hardest hitting Imperium CC unit. They just instantly demolish anything they touch. I think that unit with the Doctrina put out 32-33 S8 AP-1 2D hits for 408 points?
Meanwhile, they have -2 to hit outside of 12" and can first turn alpha strike. I can imagine Guard bringing 6x just to support them.
Is 6 the sweet spot or are folks taking 4-5 and finding equal success?
Six is the maximum efficiency due to the rules of stratagem use. But I actually think 4 is the most practical size. You can do one in front, three behind or two in front, two behind when piling in.
Suzuteo wrote: Point for point, I think 6x Dragoons are actually the hardest hitting Imperium CC unit. They just instantly demolish anything they touch. I think that unit with the Doctrina put out 32-33 S8 AP-1 2D hits for 408 points?
Meanwhile, they have -2 to hit outside of 12" and can first turn alpha strike. I can imagine Guard bringing 6x just to support them.
Is 6 the sweet spot or are folks taking 4-5 and finding equal success?
Six is the maximum efficiency due to the rules of stratagem use. But I actually think 4 is the most practical size. You can do one in front, three behind or two in front, two behind when piling in.
Actually ruins are the biggest threat to dragoon efficiency lol. Even with just 4, maneuvering round a ruin is a pain in the ass.
Oh, I totally agree. Piling in around rocks and ruins is what makes units of 6 less-than-efficient. With 4, if you can fit one, you can get them all into CC.
What do you think about optimal squad size for sicarian infiltrators? I love the models and have assembled five with the flesch blasters and taser goads
Are they most efficient run as MSU or will filling out the squad give them more oomph on the charge?
If youre running mars run as large a squad as possible, they make for a great back up option for Wrath of Mars if your Kastelans get tied up or blown up. I run a squad of 8. With any other FW trait it doesnt matter.
Facisminthe41m wrote: What do you think about optimal squad size for sicarian infiltrators? I love the models and have assembled five with the flesch blasters and taser goads
Are they most efficient run as MSU or will filling out the squad give them more oomph on the charge?
I would make them as large as possible, since they can benefit from the Doctrina as well. Don't expect them to last more than one attack though.
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
He did indeed lost 4-16 to me. Then 20-0 all other opponents.
Got to say as an ad mech player as well as Nids I really like his list. Lot of clever tricks in there.
In the end I had a wicked beta strike which hit a touch harder than his alpha (he ambushed both units of priests and the dragoons and went first.) and it came down to very fine margins. Top player, top guy. Got my best sports vote as well.
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
He did indeed lost 4-16 to me. Then 20-0 all other opponents.
Got to say as an ad mech player as well as Nids I really like his list. Lot of clever tricks in there.
In the end I had a wicked beta strike which hit a touch harder than his alpha (he ambushed both units of priests and the dragoons and went first.) and it came down to very fine margins. Top player, top guy. Got my best sports vote as well.
Good to hear from you and glad you enjoyed the tournament. What hive fleet were your nids?
Ideasweasel wrote:
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
He did indeed lost 4-16 to me. Then 20-0 all other opponents.
Got to say as an ad mech player as well as Nids I really like his list. Lot of clever tricks in there.
In the end I had a wicked beta strike which hit a touch harder than his alpha (he ambushed both units of priests and the dragoons and went first.) and it came down to very fine margins. Top player, top guy. Got my best sports vote as well.
This is exactly what I was saying though. His list seems to come down entirely to how well his first turn goes. If you don't remove enough models and the other guy hits harder, you just lose.
The mortar teams are more able to hide out of LOS and contribute plinking fire than the sniper teams. Mephiston is a lot more damage than a techmarine on bike, and the second slam captain can run VERITAS VITAE. The arquebuses are dum. THeir points are better spent on scouts to hold far objectives. Scouts can be used to prevent your infiltration from getting spaced out by nurglings. Assuming normal relic buys and black rage, you start at 9CP. You get 2 5+ refund rolls for every 1CP you spend. I really don't like the elysian flyer for first turn charges to block overwatch. I get the idea, but I feel like a savvy player won't give you that charge. Better off having more CP and something like mephiston that will cause some hurt.
Wulfey wrote: My variation on Josh Death's list would be something like this. I think he could write his list to better play long game objectives if he goes second.
The mortar teams are more able to hide out of LOS and contribute plinking fire than the sniper teams. Mephiston is a lot more damage than a techmarine on bike, and the second slam captain can run VERITAS VITAE. The arquebuses are dum. THeir points are better spent on scouts to hold far objectives. Scouts can be used to prevent your infiltration from getting spaced out by nurglings. Assuming normal relic buys and black rage, you start at 9CP. You get 2 5+ refund rolls for every 1CP you spend. I really don't like the elysian flyer for first turn charges to block overwatch. I get the idea, but I feel like a savvy player won't give you that charge. Better off having more CP and something like mephiston that will cause some hurt.
Some feedback:
1) One important part of Death's list is that he had a Valkyrie in the event he needed to drop his infantry to satisfy the half-deploy requirement and move them around.
2) Not convinced we need Scouts with this list. There is no high-value artillery that needs to be defended. Death didn't have any either.
3) I don't think you have enough CP for this; doubt Death did either, to be fair. You have 14 to begin with. Minus 5 for Death Visions and two BA Relics. So 9 before the recycling kicks in. Minus 3 to get the Electro-Priests and Dragoons into position, minus 4 for the BA characters. Zealous Congregation, CDI, Honour the Chapter, and Red Rampage cost 8 CP. This means you need to recycle 6 out of 7 CP to pull off the alpha.
So maybe cut a Captain for that Techmarine and use Mephiston as your second character?
I agree that the Elysian mortar teams would be much more useful than Sniper Squads. Out of curiosity, do Elysians get the FAQ lasgun too?
The reason for the scouts is so that you don't get spaced out by your opponents scouts. Infiltration can get hard blocked by nurglings. Mephiston could easily turn himself into a 3 squads of guardsmen and a commander for +4 CP. I am not sold on the necessity of ELYSIANS tbh. It could be something like this and then you would have a truly stupendous amount of CP. REmember that the list where josh lost is the list that could space out his infiltration using spores. This starts the game at 13CP after initial spends and gets 5+_5+ stacking refunds while your spare captain is alive (which is basically guaranteed for your alpha strike). Also this list has heaps of obsec troops that have several ways to get across the board quickly if need be. You can even relic dagger infiltrate some guardsmen if you have to. Or infiltrate some rangers if the mission calls for it.
Wulfey wrote: The reason for the scouts is so that you don't get spaced out by your opponents scouts. Infiltration can get hard blocked by nurglings. Mephiston could easily turn himself into a 3 squads of guardsmen and a commander for +4 CP. I am not sold on the necessity of ELYSIANS tbh. It could be something like this and then you would have a truly stupendous amount of CP. REmember that the list where josh lost is the list that could space out his infiltration using spores. This starts the game at 13CP after initial spends and gets 5+_5+ stacking refunds while your spare captain is alive (which is basically guaranteed for your alpha strike). Also this list has heaps of obsec troops that have several ways to get across the board quickly if need be. You can even relic dagger infiltrate some guardsmen if you have to. Or infiltrate some rangers if the mission calls for it.
Are we sure about the 2x19 Electro-Priests too? I mean, why two units and why 19 instead of 20? Is it an London Open objective for units of 20+? Because with 306 points, I can see 3x Lascannon Ironstriders being useful. That or 3x Basilisks or 2x Icarus Crawlers.
For those talking about removing sniper squad and arquebuses. You’re not getting how he used them.
2x19 electropriests is presumably because he plays a lot more itc than etc so will transfer the army across.
The techpriest on bike was a very points efficient and safe way to carry the vitae.
There’s a lot more to his list than who hit hardest turn one. He still had priests and dragoon’s going at the end of the game.
One of the new armiger configurations is dual auto-cannons LOL. Thats a friggin joke, though i guess not everyone has access to balistarii-levels of cheap fast auto-cannons. On the plus side i could probably get a cheap forgebane set and use my magnetised ironstrider auto-cannons without having to buy whatever standalone kit they release is. It does look like the kit will be in pairs, which is odd, given minimum unit size is one.
Sneggy wrote: For those talking about removing sniper squad and arquebuses. You’re not getting how he used them.
2x19 electropriests is presumably because he plays a lot more itc than etc so will transfer the army across.
The techpriest on bike was a very points efficient and safe way to carry the vitae.
There’s a lot more to his list than who hit hardest turn one. He still had priests and dragoon’s going at the end of the game.
I can understand the Elysian Sniper Squads. He probably dropped them on objectives to crowd the opponent off them. They also can contribute toward wounding pretty much anything. I don't get the Arquebuses though. They have to foot slog, and they're quite pricey.
In any case, Elysian Mortars seem to make more sense. The list does not have very good anti-horde shooting.
I don't see why 2x19 is more transferrable compared to 2x20.
I agree about the Techmarine. I don't think you should be putting Vitae on Captains. Those guys are bullet magnets, and losing your Relic early is devastating given how much you need every turn. No need to put it on a Bike though. Again, price concerns; 29 points for durability and 2 Heavy Bolters is a bit hard to swallow.
I disagree about the first turn bit though. The only reason why this army works is because it hits harder on turn one. Hell, it's why the faction works at all; none of AdMech's models aside from Dragoons and maybe Kastelans have a second strike to write home about. In fact, the survival of Electro-Priests and Dragoons depends on removing a lot of the significant threats to them immediately; offense is the best defense.
A small rules question for the more knowledgeable tech priests of this thread:
My friend wants to take 3 Armiger Knights as a detatchment add-on to his mechanicus battalion ready for a charity tournament day. So, my questions are this:
1. Since the Knights and mechanicus are in separate detatchments, they don't lose any bonuses as each detatchment is "pure", correct?
2. Separate detatchments cannot use stratagems from others, only their own, and so the Knights cannot use mechanicus stratagems and vice versa, correct?
3. My friend will have to take codex mechanicus, codex Knights and the 40k core rulebook as his books for this set up, correct?
Dr. Mills wrote: A small rules question for the more knowledgeable tech priests of this thread:
My friend wants to take 3 Armiger Knights as a detatchment add-on to his mechanicus battalion ready for a charity tournament day. So, my questions are this:
1. Since the Knights and mechanicus are in separate detatchments, they don't lose any bonuses as each detatchment is "pure", correct?
2. Separate detatchments cannot use stratagems from others, only their own, and so the Knights cannot use mechanicus stratagems and vice versa, correct?
3. My friend will have to take codex mechanicus, codex Knights and the 40k core rulebook as his books for this set up, correct?
1. Correct.
2. Any ARMY can use any of its DETACHMENT'S stratagems. However, each stratagem specifies what keywords it affects. In the case of AdMech, you can use the stratagems for the Questor Mechanicus on Armigers.
3. Just the Codex Mechanicus and data pamphlet for Armigers from the Forgebane set, actually. I don't think everyone needs to bring a rule book. In fact, the last I heard, GW stated that you only needed their core rules PDF. (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/40k/warhammer_40000_en.pdf)
Oh, and highly recommended you print the BRBFAQ and all codex/index FAQs.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone thinking a Crusader might worm it’s way back into your army if the rumoured points reductions are true?
Anything from 40-60 points depending on sources
A point cost reduction is very much needed and will help Knights a lot. I don´t know if a Crusader will get super competitive but I think I´ll include one, since we are pretty good at supporting a single Knight imo.
I really want to include a Valiant or Castellan but rumors they, that they are over 600 points and just have a few wounds more than a regular knight.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone thinking a Crusader might worm it’s way back into your army if the rumoured points reductions are true?
Anything from 40-60 points depending on sources
A point cost reduction is very much needed and will help Knights a lot. I don´t know if a Crusader will get super competitive but I think I´ll include one, since we are pretty good at supporting a single Knight imo.
I really want to include a Valiant or Castellan but rumors they, that they are over 600 points and just have a few wounds more than a regular knight.
Yeah I’m putting one back in my list would love a new knight but finances are tight. Will have to persuade the missus it’s an investment
Raven apparently cancels out the hit penalty for advancing too. This makes it pretty strong for an Errant or Crusader. The big problem with Knights was always for foot slogging then into CC. It's the only way they would make their points back, but hard to do without advancing at least once.
So turn one advance and shoot. Turn two shoot and charge.
*************** 3 Heavy ***************
2 Kastelan Robots, 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters, 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
2 Kastelan Robots, 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters, 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
2 Kastelan Robots, 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters, 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Adeptus Custodes: Supreme Command Detachment
*************** 3 HQ ***************
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter – Open the Vaults (Auric Aquilis)
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter
Ideasweasel wrote: Interesting. Talk me through the robots. Would you not have preferred one big blob of 6 for WOM?
no. I think a 6 Pack is too easy to get charged either round 1 or 2. There are so many shining spears and blood angel captains that it will happen in a five game tournament. This will be an Auto loss pretty much. A six Pack is always very vulnerable to dark reaper and Tau. They dont have to think on how to split their shooting. They just put everything into them. Small packages deliver enough punch while being flexible. Also, you are just boned if you play Aeldari and they got a Drikhari detachment and deny your Stratagems.
They hold objectives really good and the thread range is bigger. They 4++ makes them so much more durable than the 5++. I am more than satisfied with this decision :-)
Even if you decide to use split robots you must go at least 2*3 robot groups. Icarus onager 2* seems an extremely good choise !!
You can't have a competitive list no anti air no anti phych no transports no options to assault beyond Dragoons.
And now that we cleared that out if you consider Robots in split groups then Dragoons need to be in teams maxed 3-4. Or get them priests / infiltrators to support. Having zero options just 3*2 Robots is not a competitive list. Stratagems like wrath of Mars in a group of 4-6 robots is a weapon vs high invu targets like big bad robots primarchs etc. Your list rmoves all options. No plan to use stratsgems for mortals no plan for a good assault army . No plan for a good gun line. What is this list doing? Don't get me wrong it's just how I see it. Usually when we make a list we try to have a plan not sum up points and consider one option working.
Get an assault force. Groups of Dragoons 2*3 or 1*4 infiltrate. Get a group or priests 15+ with them . Make 2*3 5 man vang with plasma and advance them. Or take infiltrators to use wom and support assault with dual canticels. All valid and make a plan . Not far from points and your list but still a plan. Get two onager to increase survivibikitay in your list use of healing from you hq. So make your gun line closer to 2*3 robots 2*1 onagers Icarus. That's a solid defence back line !
Just suggesting to try and give you a hint on how to work your lists IF we talking tour play !!!
Suggestions dont start with the word "must". The list worked pretty well so its not as bad as you see it. It is not a list to kill the enemy round one. This is a list that plays the Mission. It functions even after loosing several units.
Priests are crap. They dont work if you dont get turn one since everyone and their mother kills them with indirect damage but admech. Infiltrators are pure Garbage as it is. Small groups of dragoons Lack damage and are a waste of CP. If we talk to "play" as you stated, you would not suggest a 4 Pack of dragoons. That is exactly the number you dont want to use.
I played versus Magnus and morti teamed up, won 20:0. I played vs fireraptor and two relic Leviathan. Won 16:4. I played a cerastus, 5 custodes bikers and 3 onager. Won 20:0. Played nids with a crap Ton of psychic. 10:10.
As you See you can have a list without anti Air shooting if you know how to use your captains.
Critique is fine but dude: stay classy.
-Iago40k, who do you spend your CP on? WRATH OF MARS? Or the captains? 9CP makes for 3CP on the robots. 3CP to have a captain fight again. 2CP to infiltrate and increase the swing damage on the dragoons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Octovol wrote: One of the new armiger configurations is dual auto-cannons LOL. Thats a friggin joke, though i guess not everyone has access to balistarii-levels of cheap fast auto-cannons. On the plus side i could probably get a cheap forgebane set and use my magnetised ironstrider auto-cannons without having to buy whatever standalone kit they release is. It does look like the kit will be in pairs, which is odd, given minimum unit size is one.
Going out on a limb here, I think those are 3 shot autocannons on each arm. There is no way that thing has 1/3 the firepower of a taurox prime.
Wulfey wrote: -Iago40k, who do you spend your CP on? WRATH OF MARS? Or the captains? 9CP makes for 3CP on the robots. 3CP to have a captain fight again. 2CP to infiltrate and increase the swing damage on the dragoons.
Well usually you can go for 12 cp thanks to the WL trait. It really depends on the opponent what i use but most of the time its infiltrating dragoons and +2 to Hit stratagem. One pair of dakkastelans sit down and use WoM if needed. From time to time i drop in the captain with the aquila.
We dont play ITC so I reccomend testing this before you take it to a GT :-)
*************** 3 Heavy ***************
2 Kastelan Robots, 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters, 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
2 Kastelan Robots, 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters, 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
2 Kastelan Robots, 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters, 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Adeptus Custodes: Supreme Command Detachment
*************** 3 HQ ***************
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter – Open the Vaults (Auric Aquilis)
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter
Do you override the Kastelans or switch them on and off?
The old lists used to run 1x4 Kastelans and 2x1 Crawlers. Kastelan without Wrath of Mars or Protocols is comparable to an Icarus Crawler against ground infantry, actually.
Why take Custodes over Blood Angels? You can get Bolter Scouts to play the map or Melee Scouts to form an assault screen.
Do you override the Kastelans or switch them on and off?
The old lists used to run 1x4 Kastelans and 2x1 Crawlers. Kastelan without Wrath of Mars or Protocols is comparable to an Icarus Crawler against ground infantry, actually.
Why take Custodes over Blood Angels? You can get Bolter Scouts to play the map or Melee Scouts to form an assault screen.
I think one big pack of Dakkastelans at this point is out of the question. You are very likely to face Aeldari/Drukhari in a tournament and they can deny you the protocol switch Stratagem and Wrath of Mars. Yes, its 6 CP but worth a ton. So we need to go with at least 2 packs of Kastelans. 2 times 3 are great but I didnt have the points to put in an additional Dunecrawler. Not getting first means loosing one unit of them which is a heavy hit if you only have 2 of them. And as you stated against ground targets they are comparable in damage but more durable while in Aegis and potentially threatening all game since I can sit them down.
Usually I tend to sit down one unit down with Stratagem while the Datasmith takes care of the other 2 units and switches them on and off, just as it is needed. Its just so damn flexible this way.
Why custodes and not Blood Angels? Good Question. Durability, Hurricane Bolters, deny the witch and Stooping Dive. They are a counter charge unit that can strike first which makes them awesome. I feel like Scouts arent an auto take anymore, since a lot of lists lost the ability to first turn charge and those that dont have fly unitsfor the job. I switched them out after the Big FAQ and I havent missed them since.
Anyone know if the new knight chassis is going to be cross compatible with both variants(magnetising) or if your going to have to purchase two separate ones?
I realise I’m probably fishing in empty waters here but you never know
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone know if the new knight chassis is going to be cross compatible with both variants(magnetising) or if your going to have to purchase two separate ones?
I realise I’m probably fishing in empty waters here but you never know
Warhammer Community is saying they are 2 separate kits. Not just two different pictures on the same box of sprues. I am waiting until I see the fortification rules. The shooty one really needs some way to get max shots for it to beat a shadowsword. Also, boy, shadowswords suddendly got more useful didn't they.
Can forgeworld knights apply to super heavy detachments. Ie. If I threw an Imperial Knight styrix in with say two armigers does that count as a 3 knight detachment for my 3 command points. Or do they have to be the plastic variety?
I’ve never bought forgeworld so no idea how they conform to formations other than an inkling that they come with seperate rules
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone know if the new knight chassis is going to be cross compatible with both variants(magnetising) or if your going to have to purchase two separate ones?
I realise I’m probably fishing in empty waters here but you never know
Warhammer Community is saying they are 2 separate kits. Not just two different pictures on the same box of sprues. I am waiting until I see the fortification rules. The shooty one really needs some way to get max shots for it to beat a shadowsword. Also, boy, shadowswords suddendly got more useful didn't they.
Expensive if you have to buy two to magnetise to make a super knight
Do you override the Kastelans or switch them on and off?
The old lists used to run 1x4 Kastelans and 2x1 Crawlers. Kastelan without Wrath of Mars or Protocols is comparable to an Icarus Crawler against ground infantry, actually.
Why take Custodes over Blood Angels? You can get Bolter Scouts to play the map or Melee Scouts to form an assault screen.
I think one big pack of Dakkastelans at this point is out of the question. You are very likely to face Aeldari/Drukhari in a tournament and they can deny you the protocol switch Stratagem and Wrath of Mars. Yes, its 6 CP but worth a ton. So we need to go with at least 2 packs of Kastelans. 2 times 3 are great but I didnt have the points to put in an additional Dunecrawler. Not getting first means loosing one unit of them which is a heavy hit if you only have 2 of them. And as you stated against ground targets they are comparable in damage but more durable while in Aegis and potentially threatening all game since I can sit them down.
Usually I tend to sit down one unit down with Stratagem while the Datasmith takes care of the other 2 units and switches them on and off, just as it is needed. Its just so damn flexible this way.
Why custodes and not Blood Angels? Good Question. Durability, Hurricane Bolters, deny the witch and Stooping Dive. They are a counter charge unit that can strike first which makes them awesome. I feel like Scouts arent an auto take anymore, since a lot of lists lost the ability to first turn charge and those that dont have fly unitsfor the job. I switched them out after the Big FAQ and I havent missed them since.
I see. So it's a survivalist strategy. Durability + redundancy. Probably the right way to go if you're doing Stygies Robots. Do you feel like you struggle against things like Magnus without the easy access to mortal wounds?
I agree with you about the Scouts, though if you're doing artillery, having that extra space is still helpful. Even still, Slamguinius+Mephiston+Techmarine with Vitae is also a nice option.
Can forgeworld knights apply to super heavy detachments. Ie. If I threw an Imperial Knight styrix in with say two armigers does that count as a 3 knight detachment for my 3 command points. Or do they have to be the plastic variety?
I’ve never bought forgeworld so no idea how they conform to formations other than an inkling that they come with seperate rules
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone know if the new knight chassis is going to be cross compatible with both variants(magnetising) or if your going to have to purchase two separate ones?
I realise I’m probably fishing in empty waters here but you never know
Warhammer Community is saying they are 2 separate kits. Not just two different pictures on the same box of sprues. I am waiting until I see the fortification rules. The shooty one really needs some way to get max shots for it to beat a shadowsword. Also, boy, shadowswords suddendly got more useful didn't they.
Expensive if you have to buy two to magnetise to make a super knight
Do you mean Questoris Knight Styrix? First, I'm not sure they have Imperium FW Knight rules, only Renegades. Correct me if I am wrong on this. Second, the chierovile gun is now pretty bad. It's like an anti-elite RFBC, but Terminators are relatively uncommon these days, and most other viable elites fly and thus can be taken down with Icarus Crawlers.
I see. So it's a survivalist strategy. Durability + redundancy. Probably the right way to go if you're doing Stygies Robots. Do you feel like you struggle against things like Magnus without the easy access to mortal wounds?
I agree with you about the Scouts, though if you're doing artillery, having that extra space is still helpful. Even still, Slamguinius+Mephiston+Techmarine with Vitae is also a nice option.
I played versus Morti and Magnus last tournament and no, its not really a struggle. a unit of 2 Dakkastelans wit WoM and sitting down are a good enough base for the Dragoons and/or shield captains to finish him off. Killed him first turn in my game at the GT. Would it be possible without the 4 to 5 Mortal wounds? I sure think so, yes, even if I dont have turn 1.
The number of Dakkastelan units makes it not so easy for your opponent to criple you effectively. Its not really a hard task to charge into a unit of 6 Dakkastelans and mute or even kill them before they did anything significant. With several smaller units their impact is less extreme and my list has got enough counter charge support to mop him up.
mhhh what are your plans with the Techmarine? I mean Captain Smashface and Mephiston sure, but the TM?
Iago40k wrote: I played versus Morti and Magnus last tournament and no, its not really a struggle. a unit of 2 Dakkastelans wit WoM and sitting down are a good enough base for the Dragoons and/or shield captains to finish him off. Killed him first turn in my game at the GT. Would it be possible without the 4 to 5 Mortal wounds? I sure think so, yes, even if I dont have turn 1.
The number of Dakkastelan units makes it not so easy for your opponent to criple you effectively. Its not really a hard task to charge into a unit of 6 Dakkastelans and mute or even kill them before they did anything significant. With several smaller units their impact is less extreme and my list has got enough counter charge support to mop him up.
mhhh what are your plans with the Techmarine? I mean Captain Smashface and Mephiston sure, but the TM?
Interesting. I realize now that we have become so used to CP scarcity that we've been building our lists with the assumption that we won't be able to WoM every turn for multiple turns. That is not true anymore. I will consider this...
Techmarine carrying Vitae is 5+/5+/5+ CP recycling. Give him the Beam to let him shoot from afar.
I see. So it's a survivalist strategy. Durability + redundancy. Probably the right way to go if you're doing Stygies Robots. Do you feel like you struggle against things like Magnus without the easy access to mortal wounds?
I agree with you about the Scouts, though if you're doing artillery, having that extra space is still helpful. Even still, Slamguinius+Mephiston+Techmarine with Vitae is also a nice option.
I played versus Morti and Magnus last tournament and no, its not really a struggle. a unit of 2 Dakkastelans wit WoM and sitting down are a good enough base for the Dragoons and/or shield captains to finish him off. Killed him first turn in my game at the GT. Would it be possible without the 4 to 5 Mortal wounds? I sure think so, yes, even if I dont have turn 1.
The number of Dakkastelan units makes it not so easy for your opponent to criple you effectively. Its not really a hard task to charge into a unit of 6 Dakkastelans and mute or even kill them before they did anything significant. With several smaller units their impact is less extreme and my list has got enough counter charge support to mop him up.
mhhh what are your plans with the Techmarine? I mean Captain Smashface and Mephiston sure, but the TM?
And how do you deploy your Dakkastelans? All within Cawl bubble? Or do you spread them more to evade charge/piling in on everyone (by a large unit for instance)?
Iago40k wrote: Suggestions dont start with the word "must". The list worked pretty well so its not as bad as you see it. It is not a list to kill the enemy round one. This is a list that plays the Mission. It functions even after loosing several units.
Priests are crap. They dont work if you dont get turn one since everyone and their mother kills them with indirect damage but admech. Infiltrators are pure Garbage as it is. Small groups of dragoons Lack damage and are a waste of CP. If we talk to "play" as you stated, you would not suggest a 4 Pack of dragoons. That is exactly the number you dont want to use.
I played versus Magnus and morti teamed up, won 20:0. I played vs fireraptor and two relic Leviathan. Won 16:4. I played a cerastus, 5 custodes bikers and 3 onager. Won 20:0. Played nids with a crap Ton of psychic. 10:10.
As you See you can have a list without anti Air shooting if you know how to use your captains.
Critique is fine but dude: stay classy.
I said my opinion. Your unable to have a conversation. Your list is not good nor optimal. Priests are crap? When they draw all firepower and you waste cheap points? While if you go first they rock? No your list works fine the non ad mech part rest are your assumptions only. We participate and many have played tour including the latest 10th place with priest you call crap!
Mneuver 4+ Dragoons optimal ? Ok if you don't like my suggestions ignore them but talking like you know it all just add you to my ignore list !
I said my opinion. Your unable to have a conversation. Your list is not good nor optimal. Priests are crap? When they draw all firepower and you waste cheap points? While if you go first they rock? No your list works fine the non ad mech part rest are your assumptions only. We participate and many have played tour including the latest 10th place with priest you call crap!
Mneuver 4+ Dragoons optimal ? Ok if you don't like my suggestions ignore them but talking like you know it all just add you to my ignore list !
Ah so you can talk like that but if others do that is not okay? Dude srsly. Maybe cut down on those allegations for some time and act like a grown man.
You said your opinion, thats fine. And I tell you that I think your suggestions doesnt help at all since you are not helping to improve the list but to rewrite it. those are very different thinks.
So someone gets 10th place means priest rock, I get 16th in a GT without them and its all assumptions? but i give you that, they are not crap but suboptimal.
You are telling me my list is not competitive while talking about groups of 3 dragoons, adding infiltrators to the list and using Plasma Vanguard. I cant even...-.-
Why would I ignore your "suggestions"? because I dont like them? I didnt ask you to comment on my list, which you did, so why cant I do what you did? That btw is called "having a conversation".
And how do you deploy your Dakkastelans? All within Cawl bubble? Or do you spread them more to evade charge/piling in on everyone (by a large unit for instance)?
The later. I usually go for having 2 of the units save in the Cawl bubble while one unit has to move into the bubble if I go first. But this really depends on the opponent and how he deployed up to the point where I have to place the bots.
Do you mean Questoris Knight Styrix? First, I'm not sure they have Imperium FW Knight rules, only Renegades. Correct me if I am wrong on this. Second, the chierovile gun is now pretty bad. It's like an anti-elite RFBC, but Terminators are relatively uncommon these days, and most other viable elites fly and thus can be taken down with Icarus Crawlers.
All the FW knights have rules for 8th in the astra militarum imperial armour book. Including the styrix.
I said my opinion. Your unable to have a conversation. Your list is not good nor optimal. Priests are crap? When they draw all firepower and you waste cheap points? While if you go first they rock? No your list works fine the non ad mech part rest are your assumptions only. We participate and many have played tour including the latest 10th place with priest you call crap!
Mneuver 4+ Dragoons optimal ? Ok if you don't like my suggestions ignore them but talking like you know it all just add you to my ignore list !
Ah so you can talk like that but if others do that is not okay? Dude srsly. Maybe cut down on those allegations for some time and act like a grown man.
You said your opinion, thats fine. And I tell you that I think your suggestions doesnt help at all since you are not helping to improve the list but to rewrite it. those are very different thinks.
So someone gets 10th place means priest rock, I get 16th in a GT without them and its all assumptions? but i give you that, they are not crap but suboptimal.
You are telling me my list is not competitive while talking about groups of 3 dragoons, adding infiltrators to the list and using Plasma Vanguard. I cant even...-.-
Why would I ignore your "suggestions"? because I dont like them? I didnt ask you to comment on my list, which you did, so why cant I do what you did? That btw is called "having a conversation".
And how do you deploy your Dakkastelans? All within Cawl bubble? Or do you spread them more to evade charge/piling in on everyone (by a large unit for instance)?
The later. I usually go for having 2 of the units save in the Cawl bubble while one unit has to move into the bubble if I go first. But this really depends on the opponent and how he deployed up to the point where I have to place the bots.
I don care I said my opinion only one picking fights and talking about crap bla bla bla is you. You posted I said many things you need to consider you taking words from a post to make your case. Sorry not interested to pew pew with you nor to figth. Said my opinion that's why forums exists don't like to I'd be more than happy to get you vs my list in a tour. Rest I don't answer nor try to pick fights like you. I used a word must and you off me. Well I care not wanna fight good for you not with me. Go read my first post and if you make any conclusions from all things I wrote good. Else no hard feelings play what you like. I m not here to convince you and you won't tell me what I wanna consider valid. If you don't like what I say ignore I will ignore you either way! Dragoons groups or 3+ is bad while 3*2 robot it's tactical. Go see I'm I coming from the corner boy!
I'm starting Admech up as my second army. I'm planning on doing a predominantly Stygies force for the infiltration + -1 to it + I liked their lore the most. Also planning to dabble with Mars for artillery/gun line. So currently the plan was Stygies Vanguard + Dragoons and Mars Rangers + Dunecrawlers. Dakkastelans and Infiltrators are on the table, but that was going to be my initial build.
Got a few specific questions. First of all, vanguard look really good to me, I'm coming from orks and from a mathhammer perspective they're like shoota boyz with an extra shot and crits. There's a lot of FNP in my meta to make the 2 damage even more enticing.
What's the state of plasma weapons? They excite me but they look costly and paint a bigger target on the vanguard.
Similarly, I have the same question for Rangers but with the transuranic arquebus.
The other question is, how do you end up playing the vanguard and rangers? I'm so used to playing a horde army so playing MSU is very alien to me. This is more of an actual tactics question.
What are peoples thoughts on infiltrators? I like the idea of deepstriking + wrath of mars with them. I'm mainly interested in them fluff + flavour wise, but was hoping they'd be viable enough to run in an escalation league I wish to attend.
Yoda79 wrote: [
I don care I said my opinion only one picking fights and talking about crap bla bla bla is you. You posted I said many things you need to consider you taking words from a post to make your case. Sorry not interested to pew pew with you nor to figth. Said my opinion that's why forums exists don't like to I'd be more than happy to get you vs my list in a tour. Rest I don't answer nor try to pick fights like you. I used a word must and you off me. Well I care not wanna fight good for you not with me. Go read my first post and if you make any conclusions from all things I wrote good. Else no hard feelings play what you like. I m not here to convince you and you won't tell me what I wanna consider valid. If you don't like what I say ignore I will ignore you either way! Dragoons groups or 3+ is bad while 3*2 robot it's tactical. Go see I'm I coming from the corner boy!
Well all this is just great. You said you dont care? That is very believable since you said it a lot and still answer.
You dont want to fight? stop telling people what they "must" and "have to do" while telling them their list is "not competitive" while placing good in the biggest tournament of the country. Or telling them they cant have a conversation because you dont like what they say.You see, thats how one pick fights. Or telling them that you are coming from the corner You havent convinced me and I havent convinced you, at least we are par on that one. Everything you wrote in your first comment are things you already said half a year ago. And since there are things "you WANT to consider valid" I dont think any consideration will take place on this matter.
I wont ignore you, why would I? As you stated this is a Forum so Ill be more than happy to read what you have to say, maybe I learn something and maybe not.
And yes only 3 or 4 Dragoons are not gonna deliver the damage that is needed. Since the FAQ and the Drukhari codex we are talking whole nother situations than before since there is ALWAYS the possibility to go against Aeldari and get your Stratagem denied. While that sucks but would be alright if you have several ranged platforms like the Dakkastelans ((2x3 or 3x2 is worth to think about though) and still got your Datasmith to switch for next round), it is horrible if you are a melee platform like the Dragoons and get +2 to hit denied. With 3 or 4 dudes the outputs lacks.
Suzuteo wrote: Hey guys. Let's calm down before we get another thread locked. >_>
There is no reason to lock this thread based on that conversation. Is it heated? yes. And thats perfectly fine as long as no one gets carried away too far.
Quackzo wrote: I'm starting Admech up as my second army. I'm planning on doing a predominantly Stygies force for the infiltration + -1 to it + I liked their lore the most. Also planning to dabble with Mars for artillery/gun line. So currently the plan was Stygies Vanguard + Dragoons and Mars Rangers + Dunecrawlers. Dakkastelans and Infiltrators are on the table, but that was going to be my initial build.
Got a few specific questions. First of all, vanguard look really good to me, I'm coming from orks and from a mathhammer perspective they're like shoota boyz with an extra shot and crits. There's a lot of FNP in my meta to make the 2 damage even more enticing.
What's the state of plasma weapons? They excite me but they look costly and paint a bigger target on the vanguard.
Similarly, I have the same question for Rangers but with the transuranic arquebus.
The other question is, how do you end up playing the vanguard and rangers? I'm so used to playing a horde army so playing MSU is very alien to me. This is more of an actual tactics question.
What are peoples thoughts on infiltrators? I like the idea of deepstriking + wrath of mars with them. I'm mainly interested in them fluff + flavour wise, but was hoping they'd be viable enough to run in an escalation league I wish to attend.
Vanguard are best at lower point counts. At higher point counts, their efficiency is negated by the inability to get them across the board in significant numbers. (No transports, and Lucius/Stygies devours CP.) Typically speaking, for "Red Tide" builds, you want to run them Graia with the Warlord trait to let them shoot in CC. Plasma Calivers are the best special weapon by far, and you want to run just one of them in MSUs, if any at all, since vanilla Vanguard are plenty efficient on their own.
Rangers are the best tax option. They are actually decent against GEQs.
A good option that has generated some talk for Stygies infantry is Electro-Priests, actually. (Usually the Fulgurites.) They are one of the few turn one alpha options left, and although they can be unreliable, they can hit really hard--twice. They also complement Dragoons. Sticking in Vanguard and further adding some Blood Angels or Guard for the CP recycling relics could be effective.
Okay so knight warlords can get a +1 to invulnerable save WLT. Combined with ROTATE_ION_SHIELDS ... that is pretty good. 700 points in one model sucks ... but 700 points of T8 with a 3++ that just hides and shoots ... yeah ... that starts making sense. Maybe.
Wulfey wrote: Okay so knight warlords can get a +1 to invulnerable save WLT. Combined with ROTATE_ION_SHIELDS ... that is pretty good. 700 points in one model sucks ... but 700 points of T8 with a 3++ that just hides and shoots ... yeah ... that starts making sense. Maybe.
Wulfey your a tournament regular.
Do you think that GW will either adjust power level for the castellan or tournaments will revise restrictions on the limit to prohibited models. Ie before you couldn’t bring some super heavies due to point cost/power level. Will these castellans be tournament legal do you think.
I’m actually toying with getting a Porphyrion, just because they look so damned bad ass. I doubt I would ever bring one to a competitive setting though, let alone be allowed
Wulfey wrote: Okay so knight warlords can get a +1 to invulnerable save WLT. Combined with ROTATE_ION_SHIELDS ... that is pretty good. 700 points in one model sucks ... but 700 points of T8 with a 3++ that just hides and shoots ... yeah ... that starts making sense. Maybe.
I think it might depend on keywords, if the new knight codex doesn't have questor mechanicus then it wont be able to use the Rotate Ion Shields strat. Although I could see the new imperial knights book have that strat in their own codex. I personally like the 4+ max to wound against it. Reduces the effectiveness of other lascannons, neutron lasers, knights and anything else that's a big game hunter
Wulfey wrote: Okay so knight warlords can get a +1 to invulnerable save WLT. Combined with ROTATE_ION_SHIELDS ... that is pretty good. 700 points in one model sucks ... but 700 points of T8 with a 3++ that just hides and shoots ... yeah ... that starts making sense. Maybe.
I think it might depend on keywords, if the new knight codex doesn't have questor mechanicus then it wont be able to use the Rotate Ion Shields strat. Although I could see the new imperial knights book have that strat in their own codex. I personally like the 4+ max to wound against it. Reduces the effectiveness of other lascannons, neutron lasers, knights and anything else that's a big game hunter
well there are Questor Mechanicus Traits so it should be possible :-) a nice gun platform with a necromechanic in the back sounds not too bad. CP will be an issue though. Plus a 3++ sounds very delicious :-)
Wulfey wrote: Okay so knight warlords can get a +1 to invulnerable save WLT. Combined with ROTATE_ION_SHIELDS ... that is pretty good. 700 points in one model sucks ... but 700 points of T8 with a 3++ that just hides and shoots ... yeah ... that starts making sense. Maybe.
Wulfey your a tournament regular.
Do you think that GW will either adjust power level for the castellan or tournaments will revise restrictions on the limit to prohibited models. Ie before you couldn’t bring some super heavies due to point cost/power level. Will these castellans be tournament legal do you think.
I’m actually toying with getting a Porphyrion, just because they look so damned bad ass. I doubt I would ever bring one to a competitive setting though, let alone be allowed
No way I see any nerfs coming to big knights. There hasn't been a knight titan in the top 25% at a major tournament in months. Knights didn't have rerolls to hit in shooting and didn't have strategems (hence not in top 25%). As it stands, the shooty dominus knight is starting to get more viable as these updates come out. The short range valiant is awful. That harpoon is just junk. 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, and then 4++ or 5++ against nearly every tournament model. Those odds are not good and 12" range is a real limitation. In a 5 turn game the harpoon kills <2 harlequin cars if it shoots every turn. The harpoon needs a whole lot more going for it than it has now to turn viable (maybe it has melee utility?). Thus far, we don't know enough to say whether or not the shooty 700 point dominus can outshoot a 540 4x sponson shadowsword. Right now, my shadowsword looks like it is going to get painted and that dominis knight won't be bought. We know the dominus is tougher than a shadowsword if you can feed it 3++ saves ... but boy that is a huge investment for something that can't reroll its shooting to hit rolls and needs to be in 12" range to use all its weapons (the 4 meltaguns).
The big IF out there is the knight fortification that grants maximum shots on shot rolls. IF it gives max shots to ALL weapons on the knight ... okay ... yeah ... the shooty dominus is a flat upgrade over a shadowsword. And IF armigers go down to 160 points I could see them being takeable over onagers. These are big IFs that are keeping me from buying a $170 shelf ornament.
I can see me replacing my onagers for the shooty new big knight. If we say the new knight is 650pts (4 onagers) I can see it being worth it. Granted the onagers will have a combined total of 44 wounds and 4d3 neutron shots, but the volcano lance is effectively 2 neutron lasers on steroids.
With the correct warlord trait and strats, you'll be looking at a 3++ knight or a 4++ being wounded on a best value of a 4+. That is sooooo much better than the onagers t 7 and 5++ rerolling 1's... And lets not forget it can retreat out of combat and still shoot and charge and its stomps (if anything like its smaller cousins) are still effect in cc.
The volcano lance at str 14 vs 10 (wounds t7 on 2's) with the same min damage as a neutron laser but a max damage of 9 per unsaved wound. That will be quite effective. Yes you aren't getting the flexibility of targeting 4 different units, but usually when I run my 3 onagers they always seem to bully a target to its dead anyway... unless I get lucky on the rolls.
Added with the plasma destroyer which can then target some other medium/heavy unit, I do believe it will get its pts back. We can even say the cognis stubbers will be its siegebreaker cannons which are straight away an improvement.
The only downside I see is the meltaguns, I honestly would prefer an option for heavy stubbers or autocannons to match the range of the other guns.
The Freeblade concept is super cool. I hope we are allowed to take the Questor Mechanicus keyword. That or Machine Spirit Resurgent is generalized to apply to all Knights.
I don't get it why I would play Mechanicus as a staying/ missions force or try to mix Mechanicus in soup with same purpose units.
Sure I can understand personal prefferance and a gamestyle suited on agiven player but lecturing other players in an ad mech forum about how well is a list personally performing when you play it 1/3 soup is sad.
I use the words must and should heading and talking over the changes and benefits visible to my eyes and games.
Wtf would I care about 3*2 robots staying power. Ok it's an option abuse robots split them to hold obj and have a good threat ok we know what Robots do! We did from the codex release that had a major change on robots reflecting mortals on 5+ for that specific reason. I used 2guns and flamers . Loved it so what?
If you wanna read my thinking you need to make an effort. Unfortunately since my English are trash and it's not my notice language you gotta follow how I wrote to understand me. Like it or not that's how it is.
1)Mechanicus after the big changes got a serious advantage vs many other armies. The CP buff and stygies infiltration. It's an extreme benefit that for the first time from the ad mech birth you can make a more agreesive plan.
You got best Cawl Icarus gun line with reroll vs all hits moving and shooting 48 range with staying power good invu almost same cost but mobile. So 2*1 onagers vs 1*2 robots and for current match ups and fliers is a blind choise!! What ever the plan you believe you got I'd take almost same units but mobile any day in a war.
2) I don't care to write a staying strategy in an army being hammered so badly and forced as pure gun line for some time now when I got assault options.
3) a plan got strings lots of them when you build a plan! Lists got point limits and that's what 3-4 Dragoons stand for.
We trying to make a list beyond a specific point. So we the noon retards that don't know how to play say 3-4 Dragoons can definitely deliver. Why cause you LL have a threat your enemy needs to deal with big enough with stratagem to make a serious hit but also small enough to move on dence tables or cheap enough if you prefferance to sacrifice. I always use my units for many purposes and I don't want to invest so many points when in some games I use Dragoons as screen. Cause yes vs an pure assault mad enemy I LL screen them.
4) plan consists of various options. It's not easy to assault with one unit even if it is 6 Dragoons . For me it's stupid. But if I got 15 priests 4 Dragoons and 3*5 plasma vang supporting them able to advance and shoot then it's 100% sure one of my threats will deliver. You can stop one stratagem. Will it be Dragoons dual hit priests or my 4 man Robots threat with Cawl? You LL let my onagers free shooting and my plasma alive?. That's an assault plan mid range shooting and gun line for back up. And im still Mechanicus pure with assault capabilities and as some claim here good results.
How focused you wanna be like 2*19 priest or 5 robots it's up to you. But I prefer my enemy hasnto decide to stop wrath of Mars dragoon buff plasma troops dual hitting priests than me splitting my robots in dual squads on my own.
5) infiltrators with wrath of Mars in a big unit 10+ are a weapon .
You claim to be tour experienced and you believe infiltrators suck. Well let me tell you this.
For 220 points when you make a list on tour restrictions you will consider them defferently. A) Mars heavy lists you only option for deep strike! B) when you decide you going with no robtos but still looking an easy cheap way away from hard to deliver a wrath of Mars boom!!! C) they can be buffed from dual canticles and deliver both pistol and melee extreme amount of dice making them one of the biggest deep strike antihorde unit in the game (Tesla) D) again a unit that can still be used to screen if need dual purspose with extreme mobility no cp cost. Making them more effective on lists when dual battalions are not allowed or stygies are taken as aux or you can't soup or you go A brigade !
6) A plan to use datasmiths spread robot groups stock troops enginsieers and generally tax over take over an army already sadly build it's gimping your own steenghts. You might believe the staying power plans are the way to go but your the one left two months ago and prolly with. Different army.
Mechanicus has a chance to shine with the new changes while we retain our former gun line still have screen if we decide to castle up and with the same list play vs almost any enemy and with a good chance. Not to mention if I go first that might happen more often if we decide to switch some units for an elite list like adding knights then my stupid noon list will make you cry turn one.
I got the best buff with extra cp and infiltrations and I LL throw it away to play a poxrobot list! Well guess what pure Mechanicus fun and competitive I see and believe this forum is atm. So no I don't care nor about your tone nor bragging.
And if you again start to pick words from my post to use to back up your bragging yes you LL be ignored. Plans state plans and execution we got it what your list does and no I don't said it opimal to take 3 Dragoons no! We don't talk unit type and size go read guide if you wondering we talking lists plans max points threats and how you can fit them and utilize them. In an assault plan I can spare those points and I consider them effective for specific reason . You can understand or you can't.
And to make you wonder more if I take 2* battalions meaning I head to pure Mechanicus with out even guard then sniper need to be discussed. That's me and I don't see any bad results in competitive play. And I mean play not hide!!!
P.s there is more but I can't write blogs. A clear example of how you use 3 Dragoons with priest vs 6 Dragoons would be easily understand if you just play it. I don't want to tie my fast unit all game. So my big range guns clear chaff and my priest go to take the invu buff and stay there since they can't move while my Dragoons screen run advance bla bla as fast unit and not only as tar pit/ tank killers. Simply put I believe.
Same for troops. I don't believe here our players don't understand we invest points in plasma vanguard (costly) vs a stock ranger 5 man with out a reason. Vanguard plasma are for advancing meaning adding pressure fast where you need. Not to sit as screen or chaff obviously. Can be but we use them usually when we get 2* battalions and we got cheap chaff. When we got a cheap 3 man dragoon unit to screen per say. Again I won't type a blog again to explain every single option. Your the general I say my plans as I see them to add to the experience pool. You know the road carve your own path!
If the rumors are true about Armigers being reduced we are looking at 175pts for a full melta variant with his little Chainsword. That's not a bad deal considering how fast they move and how they can be an in your face threat.
I've been looking to replace my Neutron Onagers, even running three I have found people can ignore them and are not punished enough for doing so. With the Armigers and their fast moving, close combat abilities I could see them having a place as anti tank/tie stuff up to support Dragoon/Priest bombs.
Also if you take three you don't have to waste points on our awful HQs and still get +3CP.
Goldenemperor wrote: If the rumors are true about Armigers being reduced we are looking at 175pts for a full melta variant with his little Chainsword. That's not a bad deal considering how fast they move and how they can be an in your face threat.
I've been looking to replace my Neutron Onagers, even running three I have found people can ignore them and are not punished enough for doing so. With the Armigers and their fast moving, close combat abilities I could see them having a place as anti tank/tie stuff up to support Dragoon/Priest bombs.
Also if you take three you don't have to waste points on our awful HQs and still get +3CP.
I also saw a rumor that the armigers may be getting a better melee option, like the other knights, to help vs numbers. Someone said 8 attacks with their "swipe" attack.....but remain cautiously optimistic until we actually have the book in our hands! If they get more melee attacks, then I think they will be a nice in-your-face factor to help our gunline.
They talked about those new Helverin Mini Knights in the long war podcast. 173 pts for a Armiger Chassis with 2 weapons, each 2D3 S7 Ap-1 Damage 3 shots on 60". (If I remember correctly).Of course they are very much in competition with our own Onagers but thinking about those rumored point cuts we are looking at a Super Heavy Detachment with 2 of those plus a Crusader for roughly 813 points (if taking the thermal). thats not bad at all. Making them House Raven and maybe taking the new fortification as well could be very tough to deal with (Though a fortification in combination with knights that can advance and shoot doesnt sound right ). And still about 1097 pts for the rest of the list. Though this is hardly AdMech anymore Question is if those small knights can keep up with the Onagers and all AdMech benefits.
Other thread says gallants getting +1A and +1WS. And TERRYN can HONOR THE CHAPTER to swing twice (up to 30 stomps). Gallants are point for point pretty tough. If they get a melee weapon price discount then they could get back on the table.
Helverins seem kind cool. Their shooting profile is super weird. They have a good profile for shooting at harlequin and DE vehicles and custodes. Anything in that T5-6 but have a good invul range is a decent target. They have a great profile for point blank blasting a valuable character with a good invul save. I like them for shooting flyrants.
Wulfey wrote: Other thread says gallants getting +1A and +1WS. And TERRYN can HONOR THE CHAPTER to swing twice (up to 30 stomps). Gallants are point for point pretty tough. If they get a melee weapon price discount then they could get back on the table.
That would really be nice, especially since the Gallant is already pretty cheap (for a Knight ofc) and I expect that he will get cheaper with the Codex. So he will make a nice distraction to buy your shooty Knights some time I guess.
Armigers seem less durable and powerful than Crawlers (in per point tems), but they can pay a tax to get 3 CP.
If Terryn can Honour the Chapter, then a double melee Armiger variant can be really good. I wonder if every Knight has to be from the same Household or if we can just drop the Household tradition to mix and match stratagems and relics.
Honestly though, you may want to do 4/4/6 or maybe 3/3/3/6--if you had more artillery, 2/2/2/2/6. The bases are large, and they do not fly, so it is tough to maneuever them. Plus, you only get to Doctrina one of them.
I have 18 and with 3 unit max I find I have liked 5 I would consider dropping to 4 if I don’t need after the event but they can afford to loose a few and still be a threat. They take up board space and allow me to have board control which is what ITC is all about this edition.
Yes but when you loose 2-3 a lone dragoon does not do much hence why I take 5. In testing it has done best. As I also infiltrate the tech priest with the re-roll to hit relic and give multiple units of them re-rolling and the 5th one can drag behind to put me in range of the character. Since ITC usually had buildings to hide in it’s a great place for him surrounded by scouts to protect him turn 1
15 dragoons. Very nice. Mortar battalion and Herohammer blangels battalion, truly a man after my heart. I love the list. Gotta see this knight codex before I go deep on the dragoons.
Yea matt Robertson played a similar list we made up at the London gt and I was pushing for the American ETC team to run a similar list which I would have played this year but getting married
The helverins are ~170 points, 4d3 str7, -1, 3damage guns + the melta. 14" move. They can't deal with heavy tanks very well, but damn do they do hurt to T6.
And armiger warglaives have a 'sweep' swing mode where they attack twice per base attack but at str6, -2, 1 damage. You trade in 4 str8, -3, 3 damage swings for 8 6,-2,1 swings. That gives some utility versus true hordes.
Yea great vs dark eldar stuff I was considering 3 of them instead of the blood angels and keep the 15 dragoon’s since most lists can’t deal with that much armor. Would be really fun to play
Wulfey wrote: The helverins are ~170 points, 4d3 str7, -1, 3damage guns + the melta. 14" move. They can't deal with heavy tanks very well, but damn do they do hurt to T6.
And armiger warglaives have a 'sweep' swing mode where they attack twice per base attack but at str6, -2, 1 damage. You trade in 4 str8, -3, 3 damage swings for 8 6,-2,1 swings. That gives some utility versus true hordes.
Well at the very least they'll finally be a threat to infantry. 8 attacks with S6 Ap2 should do some work.
I find it hard to believe the helverins are 4d3 super autocannons shots. Are you sure it's not 2d3 per Armigers?
From an economic perspective, if the Armigers with the meltas get the melee rules rumored, the points cost rumored, and some decent strategems, they'll be a nice building block for a "cheap" admech army combined with start collecting boxes. I could see a player starting out with Icarus Onager, Armigers, and Skitarii as a cheap start since those models are cheap to get a hold of in a variety of box sets. You have mobility, AT, and combat in the Armigers as well as extra CP. The Onager cover anti air and light vehicle duty, and the cheap Skitarii models give you a variety of troops to mess around with. Won't be amazing but it'll hold over new players until they can afford Kastellans and dragoons and should do decent in a casual area.
Holy sh** does the Raven stratagem look tasty: "At the start of the shooting phase, pick a house Raven model, that model can reroll ALL dice rolls in that phase. Hit rolls, wound rolls, number of shots etc."
Imagine this with a Crusader with the Gatling relic + RFBC.
So first ideas how to combine Ad-Mech and Knights?
So those with forgeworld knights. Can someone assist me with the legality of playing them in 40k.
How do stratagems and relics etc work now the codex has been previewed. If I were to buy 3 acastus knights could I make them house Taranis and use stratagems on them legally? Or are forgeworld choosing to leave this a mystery?
I notice apps like BattleScribe etc let you add them do 40k. And yet on forgeworld website the porphryion only shows up under 30k.
Chapter approved however had point increases for forgeworld knights and applies to 40k not other game systems.
For someone new to the knights like I am it’s very confusing. Maybe I’m being a bit slow too haha.
(Also posted this in knights tactica, apologies for spam but nobody seems to read that thread so posted here too)
Holy sh** does the Raven stratagem look tasty: "At the start of the shooting phase, pick a house Raven model, that model can reroll ALL dice rolls in that phase. Hit rolls, wound rolls, number of shots etc."
Imagine this with a Crusader with the Gatling relic + RFBC.
So first ideas how to combine Ad-Mech and Knights?
Raven Strat looks great. I think three Gallants as house krast could work out great since gallants got plus one on their to Hit and extra Attacks. And we have roughly another 938 Points to spend on admech.
Getting no cp off of those armiger knights really hurts...
So those with forgeworld knights. Can someone assist me with the legality of playing them in 40k.
How do stratagems and relics etc work now the codex has been previewed. If I were to buy 3 acastus knights could I make them house Taranis and use stratagems on them legally? Or are forgeworld choosing to leave this a mystery?
I notice apps like BattleScribe etc let you add them do 40k. And yet on forgeworld website the porphryion only shows up under 30k.
Chapter approved however had point increases for forgeworld knights and applies to 40k not other game systems.
For someone new to the knights like I am it’s very confusing. Maybe I’m being a bit slow too haha.
(Also posted this in knights tactica, apologies for spam but nobody seems to read that thread so posted here too)
I posted a response not too long ago (my posts seem mostly invisble to people though it seems) that all of the forgeworld knights are in the imperial armour: astra militarum book. They have the imperium, questor imperialis and <household> faction keywords, so anything that applies to those you can use.
Terryn is mandatory if you are taking a Gallant, which is now 354 points; I would say it is viable, though probably not the best for us.
Raven and Taranis are probably the best for a Crusader. I lean toward the former, especially due to that Full Tilt stratagem, which lets you charge after an advance. 440 points for a Crusader is a pretty good deal; 485 with the Stormspear.
Looking forward to the Freeblade stuff too though. Lots of question marks there.
Suzuteo wrote: Terryn is mandatory if you are taking a Gallant, which is now 354 points; I would say it is viable, though probably not the best for us.
Raven and Taranis are probably the best for a Crusader. I lean toward the former, especially due to that Full Tilt stratagem, which lets you charge after an advance. 440 points for a Crusader is a pretty good deal; 485 with the Stormspear.
Looking forward to the Freeblade stuff too though. Lots of question marks there.
The CP thing is what bothers me. It's either one freeblade or a whole 3 knights I think cause "wasting" that many Points into something without getting CP off of it just seems wrong. Raven really seems to be the house for Crusaders. At this point a combination of Crusaders and gallants (either as Ditraction Carnifex or with Paragorn Gauntlet) could be great. You think Terryn is mandatory for the Gallant? why? I mean its awesome but I am not sure its mandatory or other Houes would make the Gallant worse since there is a Stratagem for advance and charge right?
Question is how the Admech detachment would look like.
Iago40k wrote: The CP thing is what bothers me. It's either one freeblade or a whole 3 knights I think cause "wasting" that many Points into something without getting CP off of it just seems wrong. Raven really seems to be the house for Crusaders. At this point a combination of Crusaders and gallants (either as Ditraction Carnifex or with Paragorn Gauntlet) could be great. You think Terryn is mandatory for the Gallant? why? I mean its awesome but I am not sure its mandatory or other Houes would make the Gallant worse since there is a Stratagem for advance and charge right?
Question is how the Admech detachment would look like.
I actually am not too worried about CP any more. We're pretty efficient as long as we don't take both Knights and BA or something like that.
Terryn is mandatory for Gallant because everyone gets the advance and charge, but nothing is comparable to being able to attack twice. Even Raven's stratagem is only valuable on a Knight that shoots and fights.
I actually am not too worried about CP any more. We're pretty efficient as long as we don't take both Knights and BA or something like that.
Terryn is mandatory for Gallant because everyone gets the advance and charge, but nothing is comparable to being able to attack twice. Even Raven's stratagem is only valuable on a Knight that shoots and fights.
Right. So one gallant of terryn with paragorn and maybe the 4++ warlord trait (+1 attack would be awesome but getting the Knight a 3++ against shooting will make him very tough to kill of we dont get t1). Mhh but if taken in a super heavy aux He wouldnt get the house rule right? Sticks with the keyword though. And 1646 pts for AdMech.
@Iago:
Armigers not counting towards CP is real sad imho, especially thing they were advertised as a cheap way to get some. But I actually expect this to get FAQed.
Also you are right, aux detachment = no household tradition + no character so neither WL-trait nor relic.
At the moment we are talking about offensive output, but what about defense? House Taranis with their inbuilt 6+++ looks pretty sweet, combine it with the Machine Spirit Resurgent stratagem you got a Knight which will stay in fight for long time.
lash92 wrote: @Iago:
Armigers not counting towards CP is real sad imho, especially thing they were advertised as a cheap way to get some. But I actually expect this to get FAQed.
Also you are right, aux detachment = no household tradition + no character so neither WL-trait nor relic.
At the moment we are talking about offensive output, but what about defense? House Taranis with their inbuilt 6+++ looks pretty sweet, combine it with the Machine Spirit Resurgent stratagem you got a Knight which will stay in fight for long time.
mhhh you should be able to buy the character rukle and the trait via stratagem right?
Not being able to give a House teryn Knight a 5+ FnP against mortal wounds sucks as well...on the other hand I am happy that this book opens up a lot of otions for us
Yeah I guess you could do this, but a aux detachment doesn´t unlock stratagems or am I wrong?
Yes you will be very vulnerable to psychic power + Machine Spirit Resurgent is Mechanicus only! So when playing Imperialis you are most likely forced into Hawkshroud imo.
Yeah I agree with you, as far as I can tell that done a real good job with this book.
So which Knights are standing out for you atm?
For me it´s a Crusader pimped with the Gatling relic and maybe also so new Helverin, but their are in competition with my beloved Icarus Onagers....
Gallant because of the +1 to attacks and weapon skill. Getting an Aux Detachment Taranis giving him iron bulwark and the super gauntlet (maybe theres a better relic since but 5 attacks hitting on 2 and most likely wounding on 2s is just awesome). The 5++ invul in melee could be great as well (with rotate ion shields boosted to a 4++), especialy against aggro BA captains and not having turn 1. With the +1 to invuls strat and FnP against mortal wounds and a possible shroudpsalm he is incredible hard to take down in shooting as well, you can spend 2 CP to get him back up again and 1 CP so he acts as if he did not loose any wounds and you can also repair him. Id love him to use the "atack again" strat but I really think this could work extremely well since he is kind of a disctraction carnifex but if not dealt with he can really screw up the opponent. You dont want to have this thing in your backfield stomping 15 times while being able to explode with a strat and killing whole lot of your army.
So if its not for the "fight again" strat I am thinking Mechanicus knights are the way to go just for the synergy with our army i.E. using canticles.
I am not sold at all on the Dominus chassis knights. The Valiant is an all in build that assumes your opponent didn't bring an efficient amount of ranged anti tank. The Castellon requires a huge investment to make work.
Valiant assumes you took traitor's pyre and gave him the 4++ WLT. The only way I see this guy getting his points back is if his explodes result succeeds. You need him to blow up and for him to get multiple overwatch phases with traitor's pyre. He must be HAWKSHROUD for the overwatch strategem or GTFO.
Castellon assumes you took cawl's wrath and the 4++ WLT and make him RAVEN for access to the 2CP reroll all 1s for this model strategem (huge for all the stupid random shot count rolls). If you feed this guy CPs ... yeah ... I guess this could work. He stands, he shoots, he hopes something comes in 12" range so that his meltas do something. I don't know where you will find the CPs to feed this guy. If you start with 13CP ... you need to give him 2 to make him a character and give him a relic. Then you probably go guard/BA for more CP recycling. If you go guard/STYGIES this gives you more free CP to play with ... but significantly less damage threats. If cawl's wrath and the volcano cannon roll like poop ... urg. The reason why I like the dakkabot list is that it is hard to roll like crap when you are rolling 90 dice.
I am liking GALLANTS. They are tough for their points (350 for 24 wounds versus 590 for 28 wounds on the dominus). I also see a lot of potential in various armiger spam lists because the armiger spam doesn't need CP to work. Warglaives are now much more flexible. They are about 80% the firepower of a neutron onager but they can fight and move 14" a turn for 24 more points. Helverins have enormous range 60" and threaten 4d3 damage 3 shots ... that is 24 if the stars align ... for 174 points. And these things can be brought in squadrons (unlike poor onagers).
EDIT: overall ... I am not seeing knights as very good allies. Knights were not actually improved much by the codex as base models. 35 points on the questoris class is good ... but that is 100 points at best in a big list. The improvements were the strategems and the relics and the WLTs. Those all need CP. Lots of them. That means for knights to work ... other things need to ally to them and feed them CP. Thankfully knights have ways to turn CPs into WLTs and relics. With those WLTs and relics you can make some pretty boffo knights. But their base stats are just not good enough. The base valiant and base castellon are just bad. They are crappy shadowswords. With their relics and a 4++ .... yeah ... yeah I see it. They are still lascannon bait, but the 4++ makes things a little better. THeir guns are pretty ass when they aren't relics. The plasma decimator is just a joke. It is a 2d6 plasma rifle. LIke what? That is two kataprhon destroyers strapped together. Talk about crap. But turning it into Cawl's wrath more than doubles its expected damage output. Cawl's wrath is legit. 2d6 str9, -4, flat3, yeah, that works if you have the reroll 1s strategem going. A fully tricked shadowsword is 540 pionts. A tricked castellon is 590. After you feed the castellon 4CP, I think it actually does comparable damage to the shadowsword, but it is meaninfully tougher with that 4++.
Pretty sure the knight crusader is dead. They cost 460 points or so ... really 490 with their stormspear pod. I only see one working if you have the WLT or relic that gives you plus 1 damage against 10W plus models. Outside of that ... why take them?
For 2 CP you can give a knight a warlord trait (without making him your warlord so you keep your CP battery) and an extra relic and make him durable as hell:
If you take Taranis you get 6+ FNP (except against mortal wounds, but that's what 'Benevolence of the Omnissiah' is for).
'Ion Bulwark' warlord trait gives 4++ against ranged (increased to 3++ with 'Rotate Ion Shields').
'Armor of the Sainted Ion' relic gives him a 2+ armor save.
'Mark of the Omnissiah' relic lets him regain d3 wounds on a 6+, or 1 wound otherwise, every turn.
the_Grak wrote: For 2 CP you can give a knight a warlord trait (without making him your warlord so you keep your CP battery) and an extra relic and make him durable as hell:
If you take Taranis you get 6+ FNP (except against mortal wounds, but that's what 'Benevolence of the Omnissiah' is for).
'Ion Bulwark' warlord trait gives 4++ against ranged (increased to 3++ with 'Rotate Ion Shields').
'Armor of the Sainted Ion' relic gives him a 2+ armor save.
'Mark of the Omnissiah' relic lets him regain d3 wounds on a 6+, or 1 wound otherwise, every turn.
so... What I said :-D
Atm i See the buffed up Gallant as the most valuable Option. Wulfeys resumee is very much spot on, though 4d3 is not 24 shots on that helverin ;-)
I guess i will test it with some stygies and a couple of custodes^^
Armigers = no CP New knight variants 2 boxes and which one/ buy both magnetise
Forgeworld still has question marks over them
Preceptor forgot to be made
Yeah you don't get CP with the Armigers but they don't seem to need near as much to operate well.
I'm considering trying them with both my Skitarii and IG as house Raven. Both of my armies are kind of slow (even though I run Metallica) so the guaranteed speed and cqc ability they provide really adds a lot for what I run.
Is the outflankers strategem house specific or can it be any house? If so I could see myself just saying screw it and taking 3 in a superheavy auxiliary detachment to outflank all 3 with one strategem. That or I can just have them terrorize a flank as a little wolf pack since they seem to get lots of abilities that allow them to gang up on things.
Are they able to be Warlord's and take relics? I know a couple of the relics and WLT can buff them substantially so that'd be a big help. I just wish they didn't have random shot weapons. God I hate having to roll all these random D3 shot weapons.
Can't you just ally in one single Castellan? For less than 600 points, considering the amount of fire power they have, they seem well worth it as an ally to say a guard army which will have no lack of CPs to feed it.
lash92 wrote: @Iago:
Armigers not counting towards CP is real sad imho, especially thing they were advertised as a cheap way to get some. But I actually expect this to get FAQed.
Also you are right, aux detachment = no household tradition + no character so neither WL-trait nor relic.
At the moment we are talking about offensive output, but what about defense? House Taranis with their inbuilt 6+++ looks pretty sweet, combine it with the Machine Spirit Resurgent stratagem you got a Knight which will stay in fight for long time.
lash92 wrote: Yeah I guess you could do this, but a aux detachment doesn´t unlock stratagems or am I wrong?
Yes you will be very vulnerable to psychic power + Machine Spirit Resurgent is Mechanicus only! So when playing Imperialis you are most likely forced into Hawkshroud imo
Armigers don't count toward the Knight Lance, but they can still be a part of a regular Super-heavy Detachment. I am not sure if you get the CP though. The phrasing of some of the spoilers is concerning.
Auxiliary detachments don't get Household Traditions, but they do unlock stratagems. Is there something that says they don't?
Wulfey wrote: I am not sold at all on the Dominus chassis knights. The Valiant is an all in build that assumes your opponent didn't bring an efficient amount of ranged anti tank. The Castellon requires a huge investment to make work.
Valiant assumes you took traitor's pyre and gave him the 4++ WLT. The only way I see this guy getting his points back is if his explodes result succeeds. You need him to blow up and for him to get multiple overwatch phases with traitor's pyre. He must be HAWKSHROUD for the overwatch strategem or GTFO.
Castellon assumes you took cawl's wrath and the 4++ WLT and make him RAVEN for access to the 2CP reroll all 1s for this model strategem (huge for all the stupid random shot count rolls). If you feed this guy CPs ... yeah ... I guess this could work. He stands, he shoots, he hopes something comes in 12" range so that his meltas do something. I don't know where you will find the CPs to feed this guy. If you start with 13CP ... you need to give him 2 to make him a character and give him a relic. Then you probably go guard/BA for more CP recycling. If you go guard/STYGIES this gives you more free CP to play with ... but significantly less damage threats. If cawl's wrath and the volcano cannon roll like poop ... urg. The reason why I like the dakkabot list is that it is hard to roll like crap when you are rolling 90 dice.
I am liking GALLANTS. They are tough for their points (350 for 24 wounds versus 590 for 28 wounds on the dominus). I also see a lot of potential in various armiger spam lists because the armiger spam doesn't need CP to work. Warglaives are now much more flexible. They are about 80% the firepower of a neutron onager but they can fight and move 14" a turn for 24 more points. Helverins have enormous range 60" and threaten 4d3 damage 3 shots ... that is 24 if the stars align ... for 174 points. And these things can be brought in squadrons (unlike poor onagers).
EDIT: overall ... I am not seeing knights as very good allies. Knights were not actually improved much by the codex as base models. 35 points on the questoris class is good ... but that is 100 points at best in a big list. The improvements were the strategems and the relics and the WLTs. Those all need CP. Lots of them. That means for knights to work ... other things need to ally to them and feed them CP. Thankfully knights have ways to turn CPs into WLTs and relics. With those WLTs and relics you can make some pretty boffo knights. But their base stats are just not good enough. The base valiant and base castellon are just bad. They are crappy shadowswords. With their relics and a 4++ .... yeah ... yeah I see it. They are still lascannon bait, but the 4++ makes things a little better. THeir guns are pretty ass when they aren't relics. The plasma decimator is just a joke. It is a 2d6 plasma rifle. LIke what? That is two kataprhon destroyers strapped together. Talk about crap. But turning it into Cawl's wrath more than doubles its expected damage output. Cawl's wrath is legit. 2d6 str9, -4, flat3, yeah, that works if you have the reroll 1s strategem going. A fully tricked shadowsword is 540 pionts. A tricked castellon is 590. After you feed the castellon 4CP, I think it actually does comparable damage to the shadowsword, but it is meaninfully tougher with that 4++.
Pretty sure the knight crusader is dead. They cost 460 points or so ... really 490 with their stormspear pod. I only see one working if you have the WLT or relic that gives you plus 1 damage against 10W plus models. Outside of that ... why take them?
Both the Questoris and Dominus chasses are dependent on the opponent not specializing anti-tank. Fortunately, the meta is moving against tanks and more towards infantry as a whole. Furthermore, you shouldn't view these Knights in a vacuum. The playbook for AdMech+Knights has always been to use artillery and assault support to remove threats to the Knight as it gets into melee range, whereupon it makes its points back.
I agree that the Dominus chasses models seem like bad Stormswords. The only real competitive advantage for them is to give your dudes a 5++ on turn one. Furthermore, as AdMech players, we pretty much have to take the Castellan (because Cawl's Wrath), which are expensive as hell.
I think Questoris models have value because of three things:
1) Knights have gained a ton of tools to get into CC.
2) Knights have gained a ton of pre-game versatility.
3) Rotate Ion Shields is actually affordable for Questoris.
That being said, I misunderstood how Household Traditions were going to work before. Seems like we have to do the Freeblade thing; I think we will still be able to declare allegiance to the Mechanicum, which is super important, as Questoris Imperialis without a Knight Lance are strictly inferior.
Anyhow, it seems like you can make any Knight into a character with Exalted Court. This is important because you definitely want Warlord traits and relics. I think we should always balance taking a defensive and offensive WLT/relic combo, as Mechanicum Knights can use Machine Spirit Resurgent to get rid of their damage table. Mechanicum also gets the ability to shrug off Mortal Wounds, which is important. We don't get Sally Forth, which is an outflank, but that isn't terribly valuable, in my opinion.
Right now, I am thinking:
Knight Gallant (354)
WLT: Landstrider
Relic: Armour of the Sainted Ion
Freeblade: Quality: Legendary Hero or Peerless Warrior / Burdens: Driven to Slaughter, Weary Machine Spirit
Knight Warden + Stormspear (444)
WLT: Landstrider (or Ion Bulwark)
Relic: Armour of the Sainted Ion (or Endless Fury)
Freeblade: Quality: Peerless Warrior or Last of their Line/ Burdens: Obsessed with Vengeance, Weary Machine Spirit
Landstrider is absolutely essential for making Gallant work, as he has no guns. It's also pretty important for Warden, as you are foregoing the Thermal Cannon. Death Grip + Invocation of Machine Might is going to be what makes Wardens and Gallants really deadly to characters and vehicles. Devastating Reach also solves the whole Ruins problem. I actually think the best relic for melee is Armour of the Sainted Ion. While Sanctuary is fine and dandy, there are few extremely high AP melee weapons we need to worry about. A 2+/4++ save line is perfectly serviceable, and with Shroudpsalm, you are effectively immune to volume fire. And as always, we can abuse Machine Spirit Resurgent (which cancels out Weary Machine Spirit), so we just need to prevent blowouts.
I actually think this codex gives a really strong argument for Wardens again. Gallant actually often feels like a hammer in search of a nail; while Chainsweep and Thunder Stomp helps, Gallant is still a relatively poor performer against hordes. Thunderstrike Gauntlet got some great improvements that make it worth using over Feet in many circumstances--it's also a much cheaper alternative to Thermal Cannon.
Knight Crusader (440)
WLT: Ion Bulwark
Relic: Endless Fury (with Thermal Cannon)
Freeblade: Quality: Last of their Line / Burdens: Obsessed with Vengeance, Weary Machine Spirit
Crusader pretty much got some discounts and a huge durability improvement. He definitely does not need to get into CC as soon as Warden and Gallant, but when he does, Thunder Stomp is nice.
EDIT: I totally just remembered. We don't need to go Freeblade. We can do Taranis or Raven without the Household Tradition. Hard to say which is better, but I am leaning toward Taranis. It's basically a 50% chance to make him live another phase.
Erm, have you all seen that tabletop tactics battle report? The knight valiant looks like it may not shine as much in combat, but just its overwatch alone is good enough to kill a charging daemon prince. If nobody wants to charge it, its free to stomp around at 12 inches doing whatever the heck it wants. And its stomping feet is still 12 potential hits. Its not a slouch at fighting really.
And yeah, dedicated anti tank can kill knights. But you need a lot of it. 28W, T8, with a 4++ invul goes a really long way. Someone do the math, but I am pretty sure that equals to a heck of a lot of lascannon shots to take something like that down. And its not like you won't be shooting back.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Erm, have you all seen that tabletop tactics battle report? The knight valiant looks like it may not shine as much in combat, but just its overwatch alone is good enough to kill a charging daemon prince. If nobody wants to charge it, its free to stomp around at 12 inches doing whatever the heck it wants. And its stomping feet is still 12 potential hits. Its not a slouch at fighting really.
And yeah, dedicated anti tank can kill knights. But you need a lot of it. 28W, T8, with a 4++ invul goes a really long way. Someone do the math, but I am pretty sure that equals to a heck of a lot of lascannon shots to take something like that down. And its not like you won't be shooting back.
Depends on what is shooting the lascannons. But the calculation is relatively easy, just divide backward. (You should really memorize how to do this, since it's pretty key for high level shooting play.)
BS3 S9 AP-3 DD6 vs 28W T8 4++
28 wounds to kill; 3.5 damage per unsaved wound; 1/2 of the wounds are unsaved; 2/3s of the hits wound; 2/3s of the shots hit
28 / 3.5 / (1/2) / (2/3) / (2/3) = 36
From the attacker's standpoint: multiply forward, 63 lascannon shots; 2/3s hit; 2/3s wound; 1/2 wounds are unsaved; 2 damage per unsaved wound
36 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 3.5 = 28
And now, a Questoris:
BS3 S9 AP-3 DD6 vs 24W T8 3++
24 wounds to kill; 3.5 damage per unsaved wound; 1/3s of the wounds are unsaved; 2/3s of the hits wound; 2/3s of the shots hit
24 / 3.5 / (1/3) / (2/3) / (2/3) = 46.29
Hey look. A Crusader is actually more survivable than a Dominus due to that 3++ save.
Suzuteo wrote: Oops. Still, Questoris with Rotate Ion Shields is much more durable and points/CP efficient.
true. Now we have to find the best one of them. I am still on a ultra sturdy Taranis Gallant with a Stygies and Custodes Detachment. Although Stygies and Mars would get along very well.
wow, each siegebreaker cannon is effectively a predator tank autocannon. You can theoratically take three siegebreaker cannons on a Dominus cassus. So, it will literally have 3 predator tank autocannons on its shoulders. @@
Both the Questoris and Dominus chasses are dependent on the opponent not specializing anti-tank. Fortunately, the meta is moving against tanks and more towards infantry as a whole. Furthermore, you shouldn't view these Knights in a vacuum. The playbook for AdMech+Knights has always been to use artillery and assault support to remove threats to the Knight as it gets into melee range, whereupon it makes its points back.
(...)
I actually think this codex gives a really strong argument for Wardens again. Gallant actually often feels like a hammer in search of a nail; while Chainsweep and Thunder Stomp helps, Gallant is still a relatively poor performer against hordes. Thunderstrike Gauntlet got some great improvements that make it worth using over Feet in many circumstances--it's also a much cheaper alternative to Thermal Cannon.
(...)
So how exactly would you try to combine AdMech with the new knights?
While I agree with most of your assement, I´m not quite sure about the Warden... Do you think it is really worth paying extra points for losing an attack and +1WS and "just" get the gatling in return? Remember your Gauntet will only be hitting on 4+, thats just 2 hits on average...
Also two random questions:
1) Thermal Canon vs RFBC on a Crusader?
I feel like a lot of assessment of these knights are also ignoring the new sacristan forge, which is only 80pts and is a permanent increasing in firepower for any knight stood next to it. 4d6 shots becomes 24, thats immense. even 1d6 becoming 6 is huge.
Octovol wrote: I feel like a lot of assessment of these knights are also ignoring the new sacristan forge, which is only 80pts and is a permanent increasing in firepower for any knight stood next to it. 4d6 shots becomes 24, thats immense. even 1d6 becoming 6 is huge.
Nah, the problem is that it only activates the bonus in the next turn after you don´t shoot in the previous turn...
Octovol wrote: I feel like a lot of assessment of these knights are also ignoring the new sacristan forge, which is only 80pts and is a permanent increasing in firepower for any knight stood next to it. 4d6 shots becomes 24, thats immense. even 1d6 becoming 6 is huge.
Nah, the problem is that it only activates the bonus in the next turn after you don´t shoot in the previous turn...
But if you ran a set up with two Gallants + Valiant would that be a good strategy? Plonk that thing down on the way in and charge your two melee knights whilst moving up your big one. Nobody is doing any shooting first turn anyway and just hope you survive to unleash some chaos?
Octovol wrote: I feel like a lot of assessment of these knights are also ignoring the new sacristan forge, which is only 80pts and is a permanent increasing in firepower for any knight stood next to it. 4d6 shots becomes 24, thats immense. even 1d6 becoming 6 is huge.
The problem is you're giving up your first volley to get a "perfect" volley next turn.
40k is an insanely deadly game, especially on turn 1. Paying for something as huge as a knight and willingly letting it not shoot for one of the most critical turns in the game is insane. Especially when 2 rounds of average shooting is probably still better than one round of max shots. Don't forget that every gun that doesn't fire means more enemies hitting back. You're also painting a massive "shoot me" sign on the knight. Anyone who can run two brain cells together will figure out what you're doing and either cripple or destroy the knight before it can fire.
Ironically, I could see a point to the repair bay, but not for knights. Some tables have awful terrain, buying that piece gives you somewhere to Garrison infantry and protect them from assault by things like dragoons or monsters. It also gives you a raised platform for things like arqubus rangers. It's a very niche use but I've heard of stranger uses, and at 80pts it's a lot cheaper than something like a bastion. Still not a very good option for most lists.
IF, big IF here, IF a single knight super heavy auxiliary detachment gives strategems and a HOUSEHOLD for HOUSEHOLD bonus purposes, then I think taking a solo Valiant or a solo Castellon could actually be good. The solo HAWKSHROUD valiant needs 2CP before the game starts to get it powered up with 4++ and traitor's pyre, but after that it is a suicide bomb running at your opponent. A solo KRAST Castellon with 4++ and cawl's wrath that gets fed the reroll 1 statregems could do the job of the dakkabots.
Pending further clarification on Armigers and the SHD command points, I'm wondering if they would be a good replacement for Dunecrawlers (Helverin) or Dragoons (Warglaive). Has anyone crunched the numbers on the damage output of the Armiger Autocannons compared to Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays? (or the Chain Cleaver versus the Taser Lance?)
To outweigh the loss of canticles and Cawl re-rolls (or shroud protocols), Helverins would have to do enough more damage to justify those losses and their increased cost.
Similarly for Warglaives, does a T7 3+/5++ out-perform a T6 4+/6++ with -1 to hit on a point per wound basis? The new slashing attack on their cleaver should improve damage output against units they'd otherwise struggle with.
Maybe I'll have to sit down with a calculator later and work all of this out.
Sorry I haven't read the codex yet but can't we get a super heavy detachment with 2 helverins and 1 knight ? Sorry if if this is obvious to all!! My intent was to get that specific detachment setup and remove 2 Icarus and 400 from my assault team to get the knight( melee)
Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote: Pending further clarification on Armigers and the SHD command points, I'm wondering if they would be a good replacement for Dunecrawlers (Helverin) or Dragoons (Warglaive). Has anyone crunched the numbers on the damage output of the Armiger Autocannons compared to Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays? (or the Chain Cleaver versus the Taser Lance?)
To outweigh the loss of canticles and Cawl re-rolls (or shroud protocols), Helverins would have to do enough more damage to justify those losses and their increased cost.
Similarly for Warglaives, does a T7 3+/5++ out-perform a T6 4+/6++ with -1 to hit on a point per wound basis? The new slashing attack on their cleaver should improve damage output against units they'd otherwise struggle with.
Maybe I'll have to sit down with a calculator later and work all of this out.
I did not calculated things, but I tried Warglaives as my primary AT force (with house Krast rules, no stratagem) yesterday vs Death Guard. Onagers went with 2xIcarus instead.
My conclusion so far is: with lowered cost they're at least an option to Neutrager. Neutragers are safer to operate as they are a solid 48" shooting from safety and Cawl rerolling platforms, but when it comes to utility... I'm not that a great fan of them.
I made a lucky mistake and charged head-on into Land Raider carrying termies and LoC, while Plague Marines, psyker and Hauler were strolling around. Overall, two melta Warglaives droped LR to second bracket in firing, while one charging (second failed, and was killed next turn) Armiger forced LR to unpack and run with 2 wounds left. Heroic Armiger died outnumbered unfortunately. Would I be able to do so with Neutragers in a single turn? Possibly I could score the damage, but I'm yet to see two Neutragers rolling 3 hits each and making such a mess. But a distraction that held this tough flank for a turn longer before it reached my main line is totaly out of their capability (hence why this mistake were lucky; if this group reached me a turn sooner, I'd be totaly wrecked - especially that Great Unclean One was joining the party deep striked).
In the end the hold Death Guard was accidentaly lured into won me the game by objectives scored with my infiltration force, and he gave round 4. Even if he destroyed my modest castle I was far too far in points for him to catch me.
Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote: Pending further clarification on Armigers and the SHD command points, I'm wondering if they would be a good replacement for Dunecrawlers (Helverin) or Dragoons (Warglaive). Has anyone crunched the numbers on the damage output of the Armiger Autocannons compared to Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays? (or the Chain Cleaver versus the Taser Lance?)
To outweigh the loss of canticles and Cawl re-rolls (or shroud protocols), Helverins would have to do enough more damage to justify those losses and their increased cost.
Similarly for Warglaives, does a T7 3+/5++ out-perform a T6 4+/6++ with -1 to hit on a point per wound basis? The new slashing attack on their cleaver should improve damage output against units they'd otherwise struggle with.
Maybe I'll have to sit down with a calculator later and work all of this out.
I did not calculated things, but I tried Warglaives as my primary AT force (with house Krast rules, no stratagem) yesterday vs Death Guard. Onagers went with 2xIcarus instead.
My conclusion so far is: with lowered cost they're at least an option to Neutrager. Neutragers are safer to operate as they are a solid 48" shooting from safety and Cawl rerolling platforms, but when it comes to utility... I'm not that a great fan of them.
I made a lucky mistake and charged head-on into Land Raider carrying termies and LoC, while Plague Marines, psyker and Hauler were strolling around. Overall, two melta Warglaives droped LR to second bracket in firing, while one charging (second failed, and was killed next turn) Armiger forced LR to unpack and run with 2 wounds left. Heroic Armiger died outnumbered unfortunately. Would I be able to do so with Neutragers in a single turn? Possibly I could score the damage, but I'm yet to see two Neutragers rolling 3 hits each and making such a mess. But a distraction that held this tough flank for a turn longer before it reached my main line is totaly out of their capability (hence why this mistake were lucky; if this group reached me a turn sooner, I'd be totaly wrecked - especially that Great Unclean One was joining the party deep striked).
In the end the hold Death Guard was accidentaly lured into won me the game by objectives scored with my infiltration force, and he gave round 4. Even if he destroyed my modest castle I was far too far in points for him to catch me.
Yoda79 wrote: Sorry I haven't read the codex yet but can't we get a super heavy detachment with 2 helverins and 1 knight ? Sorry if if this is obvious to all!! My intent was to get that specific detachment setup and remove 2 Icarus and 400 from my assault team to get the knight( melee)
Pending the rules on super heavy auxiliary detachments granting strategems ... I would say just run the gallant solo and give him 2CP for a WLT and a relic. 354 points gives T8, 4++, KRAST for rerolls and questor mechanicus rules, and then the relic gauntlet so you hit on 2+ rerolling with no penalty.
EDIT: there is also an argument to be made for running the HEADSMENS MARK that gives +1 to all damage versus 10W plus models. That gets really hilarious when you are pumping out 15 2+ rerolling to hit D3+1 damage stomps on a T7 monster that thought he would be safe.
So how exactly would you try to combine AdMech with the new knights?
While I agree with most of your assement, I´m not quite sure about the Warden... Do you think it is really worth paying extra points for losing an attack and +1WS and "just" get the gatling in return? Remember your Gauntet will only be hitting on 4+, thats just 2 hits on average...
Also two random questions:
1) Thermal Canon vs RFBC on a Crusader?
2) Warglaives vs Helverins?
I'm actually thinking about how to best incorporate a Knight. They're essentially a really big, really fast tank that also fights. My first instinct is to go with a lone Raven Crusader with Ion Bulwark and Endless Fury. Make him a strong shooting and assault unit. Raven Warden with a Stormspear is a close second.
By the way, I think there was some misinformation. According to a preview of the digital codex, we only lose Command Benefits (that is, CP) for not having three Questoris or better in a Super-heavy Detachment. So unless there is a section in Household Traditions saying otherwise, I think we get both the traditions and stratagems in a Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment.
The Gauntlet is valuable because that new stratagem is easily abused against low strength vehicles, monstrous creatures, and characters. I don't think giving up one WS and attack is the way to look at it. Instead, you're gaining a shooting phase with 12 attacks from one of the best anti-infantry weapons in the game. I mean, the Reaper actually adds very little in comparison to the Gauntlet.
Thermal Cannon for sure. It complements the Avenger very much, since it's also 36" and kills most of the things that Avenger cannot. Plus, you pretty much have to get into CC to break even on points, and most of the RFBC's cost is for the range.
I really hope they don't make the Lance mandatory for stratagems. That just seems like they're going after solo Knights, which makes no sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: UPDATE: After giving it much thought, I think the question boils down to this: Thunderstrike Gauntlet + Stormspear Missile Pod or Thermal Cannon?
Because the two builds I keep arriving at look very similar:
Knight Crusader (440)
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
House Raven
WLT: Ion Bulwark / Blessed by the Sacristans
Relic: Endless Fury / Armour of the Sainted Ion
Knight Warden (444)
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
House Raven
WLT: Ion Bulwark / Blessed by the Sacristans
Relic: Endless Fury or Judgement or Paragon Gauntlet / Armour of the Sainted Ion
The mix of shooting, fighting, and durability make these Knights extremely versatile in all situations.
However, I feel myself drawn more and more toward the Warden. The codex gives us so many tools that favor it.
1) Gauntlet complements Feet and gives me access to Death Grip and Devastating Reach. Death Grip is incredibly competitive. I think we're severely underestimating its importance in many matchups. For example, it virtually guarantees that we will kill Slamguinius if he tries to charge us. (Assuming he survives the Gauntlet attacks, if Invocation of Machine Might is on, he has to roll a 6 and you a 1 for him to escape.)
2) Stormspear mostly replaces the functionality of Thermal Cannon while being much more efficient; of course, you can run a Crusader with both, but we're striving for point efficiency here.
3) Compared to a Gallant, it trades a mostly redundant Reaper, 1 WS, and 1A for an Avenger Gatling Cannon that can be upgraded in two ways.
4) Extra customizable with relics if you need more mortal wounds, volume fire, anti-tank, or Death Grippiness.
Has anyone considered two Knight Valiant side by side charging up the battlefield? With the strategerm that allows another knight to also help overwatch. Thats two knight valiants worth of overwatch into anything that dares to charge them. I seriously think the list of anything that can survive an overwatch from the combined firepower of two Knight Valiants is very very small.
Just the two confragation cannons alone would contribute 6d6 autohits. And when you are rolling so many overwatches, some of them are gonna turn up 6s. I mean, 8 melta gun overwatch is no joke.
And even if anything survives the overwatch, they then face the 12 hit stomps, and the heroic intervention from the other knight valiant (which means another 12 potential hit stomps). And finally, if they survive all that, the valiants can simply move away the next turn and continue shooting.
And then you face the same devastating overwatch all over again if you want to try and charge them a second time.
Leaving aside the spear hitting on the overwatch (cos if it hits, good luck to whoever charging in). double confrag cannon, and 8 melta guns would mean at least one melta gun hit and 6d6 confrag cannon hits. If you have double shield break cannons (and double overwatch), then thats another 2 hits from something that does 3 damage even if you have to roll sixes on your overwatch.
So, leaving aside the lucky spear hit, you still have at 1 melta gun hit, 2 shieldbreaker cannon hits and 6d6 confrag cannon hits if you use the strategem so that both Valiants get to overwatch the same unfortunate charging enemy.
That works out to (3.5 + 3 +3 + 42) = 51.5 maximum potential wounds from those hits. Of course, need to wound, and then opponent may get a save (may!). Its still a shockingly high number of potential wounds just from overwatch alone.
Even other knights may give pause on facing that fiery mealstorm of overwatch.
The trouble is that the second knight can't do a second overwatch using a strategem in one phase. And the second knight doesn't have the relic for rerolling to wound. And the hawkshroud strategem specifically says IMPERIUM, not knights, so you can just mix in hawkshroud in a soup list just as well. The benefit of the traitor's pyre / overwatch strategem is that the valiant covers everything around him in 18", so you can't cheese your way out of overwatch.
What Wulfey said. Plus there is the inherent inefficiency and inflexibility of Valiants to deal with. I would not ever want to run two. In fact, I would never run a Dominus class and opt only for one Questoris in the mid-400 point range.
I watched the Frontline Gaming Codex review yesterday and the question regarding the support detachment was brought up at the end by a viewer. They also were not quite sure, but I think the consent was, that you get stratagems + traditions in an support detachment.
I can see the strength of the deathgrip and tbh is just so cinematic, grabbing a Demon Prince or something like that and just crushing him xD
But do you really want it on a Warden? It kind of forces you to take the relic Gauntlet imo, otherwise you have to hit on a 4+ to activate the effect of the stratagem...
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW what would you take for the rest of your ~ 1500 points?
Suzuteo wrote: What Wulfey said. Plus there is the inherent inefficiency and inflexibility of Valiants to deal with. I would not ever want to run two. In fact, I would never run a Dominus class and opt only for one Questoris in the mid-400 point range.
I don't get it. What's so inefficient and inflexible about having two Valiants? @_@
There is probably only one truly dangerous melee threat which would warrant that strategem being used. Unless you are facing another IK army, otherwise, how many truly dangerous threats are you going to face in any one charge phase which one single Valiant's overwatch can't already handle? And while it seems expensive, a Valiant is not really that much more substantially expensive than saw a Warden or a Crusader in terms of points.
Great. Raven all the way then. Advance, shoot, charge with Full Tilt. Grip stuff. Reroll all the 1s.
Well, you pick what warlord trait and relic you want at the start of the match. So if you see lots of things you can Grip, you go with Paragon. If you see lots of horde units, go for Endless Fury.
Well, you pick what warlord trait and relic you want at the start of the match. So if you see lots of things you can Grip, you go with Paragon. If you see lots of horde units, go for Endless Fury.
That´s a good point!
What would you take (roughly) for the rest of your points then?
Elite - 323 19x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 461
Lord of War - 461 Knight Warden - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 1999 points 13 CP
AdMech deep strikes in and erases threats to the Knight, which charges in the wreak havoc. Meanwhile, the Guard detachment provides a crapton of artillery.
EDIT: Forgot to include the Heavy Flamer on Wardens. Haha.
Iago40k wrote: I am not even sold on the gatling cannon as it is...its 12 shots with no rerolls. What do we want to kill with it?
Well, if you are Raven or Vulker, you do get rerolls. But Avenger kills anything that walks on two legs.
Elite - 340 20x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 444
Lord of War - 444 Knight Warden - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 1999 points 13 CP
AdMech deep strikes in and erases threats to the Knight, which charges in the wreak havoc. Meanwhile, the Guard detachment provides a crapton of artillery.
Oh, and if you cut a Fulgurite, maybe upgrade the Rangers to Vanguard or take a Meltagun?
.
Seems like a legit list.
Since I haven´t played with E-Priests yet, can someone enlighten me? I mean I can see their offensive potential, but aren´t they a big coin flip, where you depend on going 1st?
Took out a Priest to make room for the Heavy Flamer that I forgot about.
They're not too much of a coin flip because you can move before you charge, but they are rather hit or miss depending on the circumstances. You have to be careful about who is going first. If you are going first, you infiltrate them really close. If not, try to hide them somewhere or keep them close to the artillery as counter-chargers; they eat Slamguinius alive.
Fulgurites basically vomit mortal wounds, so have them charge characters and things with invulnerable saves. Basilisks and Dragoons should be going for vehicles. Your Mortars should pound their infantry. The Idea is to clear threats to your Knight.
Elite - 323 19x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 461
Lord of War - 461 Knight Warden - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 1999 points 13 CP
AdMech deep strikes in and erases threats to the Knight, which charges in the wreak havoc. Meanwhile, the Guard detachment provides a crapton of artillery.
EDIT: Forgot to include the Heavy Flamer on Wardens. Haha.
Iago40k wrote: I am not even sold on the gatling cannon as it is...its 12 shots with no rerolls. What do we want to kill with it?
Well, if you are Raven or Vulker, you do get rerolls. But Avenger kills anything that walks on two legs.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Has anyone considered two Knight Valiant side by side charging up the battlefield? With the strategerm that allows another knight to also help overwatch. Thats two knight valiants worth of overwatch into anything that dares to charge them. I seriously think the list of anything that can survive an overwatch from the combined firepower of two Knight Valiants is very very small.
Expensive as hell in an edition of shooty 40k. Plus many armies that are looking to charge can flat out negate overwatch. BA captain with angel's wing. No overwatch. Then comes in some friends. Alternatively throw in sacrificial troops to eat up strategem(assuming it wasn't as many overwatch as you want as support).
Anyway on mechanicus question. From forgebane contents(looking probably at building rangers) what suggestions would be for expanding it to ~600-800 alliance detachment? Not looking for huge force right away but since I have ~250 pts already maybe small force for my Imperium Soup wouldn't be bad idea to give me more things to field(I like to change lists a lot anyway).
Was thinking adding 2 engineers(to give me super cheap bat to work alongside knights), 2 kastellans and 10 electro priests(they appear to have fun ability in h2h and shooting isn't bad. Was thinking Lucius to deep strike them in). Should give me about 800 pts.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Has anyone considered two Knight Valiant side by side charging up the battlefield? With the strategerm that allows another knight to also help overwatch. Thats two knight valiants worth of overwatch into anything that dares to charge them. I seriously think the list of anything that can survive an overwatch from the combined firepower of two Knight Valiants is very very small.
Expensive as hell in an edition of shooty 40k. Plus many armies that are looking to charge can flat out negate overwatch. BA captain with angel's wing. No overwatch. Then comes in some friends. Alternatively throw in sacrificial troops to eat up strategem(assuming it wasn't as many overwatch as you want as support).
Anyway on mechanicus question. From forgebane contents(looking probably at building rangers) what suggestions would be for expanding it to ~600-800 alliance detachment? Not looking for huge force right away but since I have ~250 pts already maybe small force for my Imperium Soup wouldn't be bad idea to give me more things to field(I like to change lists a lot anyway).
Was thinking adding 2 engineers(to give me super cheap bat to work alongside knights), 2 kastellans and 10 electro priests(they appear to have fun ability in h2h and shooting isn't bad. Was thinking Lucius to deep strike them in). Should give me about 800 pts.
One thing to be mindful of is failing your charge. I love Lucius and deepstrike is good fun but your boys look rather silly when they arrive, trip up and then stand there with their thumbs up their asses whilst getting shot to Blighty and back
Ideasweasel wrote: One thing to be mindful of is failing your charge. I love Lucius and deepstrike is good fun but your boys look rather silly when they arrive, trip up and then stand there with their thumbs up their asses whilst getting shot to Blighty and back
True that. Being also an ork player with the da jump I know that all too well. With reroll it's 50-50 so with CP reroll only it's bit less. Orks have it bit better as they have reroll charges AND ability to use CP(and generally pile of CP's to burn since we aren't blessed with strategems yet so 13-14 I usually start with is a bloody lot of rerolls!) so if I roll 2 low dice I can roll 'em both and if I roll 5 I can roll the other for 50-50 shot, I roll 4 as highest I can try for 33% chance(which still beats 9 on 2d6) or of course if there's 6 I can get 66% chance. With AM yes lack of that is a bummer. That's why the IG part would be used to clear dangers and maybe even not rush them on T2 but even keep them for turn 3 when hopefully enemy is softened up a bit. Sort of cheap counter charge/objective grabbing.
Just looking some new units that gives something IG doesn't give. Gunline type of allies aren't what I'm looking for first as that IG does well as well. Copying that seems dull and expensive money wise. Maybe later so I can use more of AM than IG army but for now something that gives them clear role my IG army does not have would be nice.
Just looking some new units that gives something IG doesn't give. Gunline type of allies aren't what I'm looking for first as that IG does well as well. Copying that seems dull and expensive money wise. Maybe later so I can use more of AM than IG army but for now something that gives them clear role my IG army does not have would be nice.
Then I would consider making your AdMech detachment Stygies and add a unit of dragoons (4 or 6). You can infiltrate them, for a first turn charge and they are just brutal (against pretty much everything) since they we got a +2 to hit in melee stratagem, which gives them exploding hits on 4+.
Suzuteo I like your list but I removed guard entirely adding a battalion of Mars with Cawl and Robots. I remove some units add some others but more or less I use the ad mech 6 s for cp cycling . Why cause I trust Cawl with 4 Robots provide an extreme threat my enemies need to deal with . So knight Dragoons priests Cawl Robots all bad ass threats none to be ignored. Now I'm testing how to fit the knight but I'm heading towards Mars battalion stygies vang or out even second batt if allowed from competition rules. Need the CP s to make it work. Something along these lines!!
6 dragoons, 2 enginseers, 3x 
, you actually lose the Conversion Beamer bonus (>21"
and has something to integrate them more in to admech.
