Maybe keep a cheap Guard Batallion (5CP for 180 points is just so good) and make a mixed AdMech Batallion:
- Cawl and Techpriest(for Knight repair)
- 3x5 Graia Troops for deny stratagem
- Priest and Dragoon Stygies
- Robots Mars
Yoda79 wrote: Suzuteo I like your list but I removed guard entirely adding a battalion of Mars with Cawl and Robots. I remove some units add some others but more or less I use the ad mech 6 s for cp cycling . Why cause I trust Cawl with 4 Robots provide an extreme threat my enemies need to deal with . So knight Dragoons priests Cawl Robots all bad ass threats none to be ignored. Now I'm testing how to fit the knight but I'm heading towards Mars battalion stygies vang or out even second batt if allowed from competition rules. Need the CP s to make it work. Something along these lines!!
This list interests me. Let me know what you settle on
Knight Warden [25 PL, 466pts]: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword
++ Total: [118 PL, 1997pts] ++
Needs a bit of tweaking but valid for practise games ! Need to work a bit a list with one battalion and see something close to this with a super heavy +3
I have not added yet details like knight weapons or relics I will make progress when I get home !
So slighty mech related and also slightly knight related, and actually fluffyish
Current new list thoughts
Stygis bat
Enginseer
Enginseer
5 man ranger squad x3
Stygis bat
Enginseer
Enginseer
5 man ranger squad x3
House Raven knight lance
Knight Gallant with 2+ to move/charge/advance WL and the 2+ armor relic and a top hat stormspear
Knight Castellan with 4 shoulder cannons and 2 missles, Cawls Wrath Relic plasma and 4++ wl trait
Knight Crusader with battle cannon, relic avenger, stormspear hat and either the ignore ap 1 WL trait or the 1cp and 1 reroll or the wounds rolls of 6s do mortal wounds
should be slightly under 2k, 16 command points to start and either 10 or 11 to use in game once all the wl traits/relics are bought
If the rules support it, I think the best knight to run along with mechanicus would actually be the castellon.
Superheavy Auxiliary (so no household bonus, but it still has RAVEN for strategem purposes ... still gets strategems but no automatic character). 1x RAVEN (mechanicus) Castellon - spend 1CP to make it a character with exalted court and give it the 2+ armor WLT (then put it behind a big piece of terrain for 50% cover) xor give it 4++ if terrain sucks, spend another 1CP for Cawl's wrath.
Every turn spend 2CP for the RAVEN strategem to give reroll 1s to everything. Now that d6 shots, 2d6 shots, 3+ to hit, 1 damage rolls, wound rolls of 1 ... EVERYTHING ... get the rerolls. That is one shooty boi. LIke damn. If he takes damage, 1CP to ignore the damage table. Fix him for 1 health a turn every turn with your STYGIES detachment.
EDIT: either that or do the same thing with 1 HAWKSHROUD valiant. You don't need the household ignore damage table bonus for something that uses a flamer. Just put him in the middle and run him behind your dragoons. As soon as they get charged, burn the xenos down.
EDIT: either that or do the same thing with 1 HAWKSHROUD valiant. You don't need the household ignore damage table bonus for something that uses a flamer. Just put him in the middle and run him behind your dragoons. As soon as they get charged, burn the xenos down.
I keep flip flopping on which dominus I want. My heart says valiant but my head says castellan.
Knight Warden [25 PL, 466pts]: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword
++ Total: [118 PL, 1997pts] ++
Needs a bit of tweaking but valid for practise games ! Need to work a bit a list with one battalion and see something close to this with a super heavy +3
I have not added yet details like knight weapons or relics I will make progress when I get home !
That list looks solid, no doubt. I am still not sold on the warden but I do think we need 2 Battalions. Those damn CP are just so important, good thing we got the monitor. I even build a list with a Custodes Battalion, that is how needed those CP are...this and I just wanted to add my beloved shieldcaptains And it hurts so much to see 3 of those damn Tech Priest Enginseers...man how great it would be if either destroyers or breachers could actually work in some way so we could fill a second batallion not just with a lot more chaff -.-
Yeah I can't decide on either a Valiant or a Castellon. I have 3 questoris chassis fully magnetized up so I am going to run them for a while. I can't possibly buy until I have the codex in hand to hard confirm the households for single knights rule. From Geoff it looks like you only get tradition bonuses if you have a knight LANCE, not just a superheavy auxilliary detachment.
In my mind, the solo castellon does the job of Cawl + dakkabots, and my admech detachment would be a STYGIES detachment. The RAVEN (but no bonus) castellon has reroll 1s of everything and shoots all kinds of firepower at hard targets. The rest of the army plays the board while the castellon shoots and gets shot at (T8 with a 4++ is pretty reasonable compared to my dakkabots T7 with 4++/5++).
The valiant does valiant things. You run it up the board on a suicide bomb mission while the rest of your army play the game. I think STYGIES does well here too. If your dragoons get charged, the valiant can overwatch for them.
Engi can repair the knight 4 wounds a turn. Depending on opponent I might pour more CP into the knight, or more CP into the captains. TPD and the icarus move around the board picking on easy fly targets. If I get first turn then all the CP goes into the dragoons and smash captain. If I go second, then points go into keeping the castellon up.
EDIT2: something to note ... enginseers can't repair questor IMPERIALIS knights. And TRAITORS_PYRE is IMPERIALIS only. So a Valiant will never be that great an ally to an admech detachment. Because CAWLS_WRATH is questor MECHANICUS only, castellons and admech will always be better friends.
Yeah I think I am gonna go with a kind of fluffy approach on this, I am of out of ideas at this moment and need to see how the knight actually performs on the battlefield.
I will try out a Gallant with Ion Bulwark and 5++ in melee, House Taranis and I think this will go with a Stygies Brigade.
I feel you mate, but I want to burn things. The relic the Imperium side get is just to good to miss out on.
But I think overall the Mechanicus side does win, regarding strats, relics etc.
Okay, I sat down and did the math (this is my first time really doing this, so I suspect I've made some errors). I wanted to compare the Helverin's autocannons to the Icarus Array Dunecrawlers, both with and without Cawl.
Wounds/Turn: Icarus Array V Helverin
GEQ : 3.89 V 3.8
MEQ : 2.06 V 1.8
Primaris : 2.95 V 3.6
TEQ : 2.13 V 2.4
Rhino : 2.28 V 4
Landraider : 1.25 V 1.8
Stormraven : 3.05 V 3
Custodes Bikers : 2.79 V 3.56
Raider : 2.26 V 5.4
Wounds/Turn: Icarus Array (With re-rolls to hit) V Helverin
GEQ : 5.83 V 3.8
MEQ : 3.08 V 1.8
Primaris : 4.43 V 3.6
TEQ : 3.19 V 2.4
Rhino : 3.43 V 4
Landraider : 1.88 V 1.8
Stormraven : 4.06 V 3
Custodes Bikers : 2.99 V 3.56
Raider : 6.09 V 5.4
In summary, if you're not running Cawl, the Helverin looks to outperform Dunecrawlers in most cases on a wound/turn basis. If you did the same look at the Neutron Laser, the Helverin comes out ahead in either case against all targets that aren't landraiders. I'm sure someone could adjust these for the relative points difference between the models or other factors though. Helverins could be a effective component of competitive AdMech Soup in the future.
In summary, if you're not running Cawl, the Helverin looks to outperform Dunecrawlers in most cases on a wound/turn basis. If you did the same look at the Neutron Laser, the Helverin comes out ahead in either case against all targets that aren't landraiders. I'm sure someone could adjust these for the relative points difference between the models or other factors though. Helverins could be a effective component of competitive AdMech Soup in the future.
Just divide your results by the point value of the units to make them comparable (you could multiply the following result with 100 to get a more "readable" number)
Battalion ( Mars prolly)
Vanguard or outrider (stygies prolly)
Super heavy (2*1 armiger's 1*knight)
That's a total of 12 cp with 6s recycling. Closest to ad mech pure but with a knight to get some cc durability . Trying to have best ad mech while the knights supplement the role of 2* Icarus I used to have while the big knight finally give us melle options.
Not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Taking a simple robots dragns Icarus list and adding the knight while I retain high cp, CP recycling and cc options. If the super heavy +3 armiger's +knight is valid seems like my competitive list!
Why cause 2* battlions is nice to practise games tons of CP but personally I consider no detachment restrictions a fun tour. Competitive wise single use of detachments is essential for sane games. Practise sure extreme lists sure but we need to keep this game about choises not default options. It's how you use your resources eventually to win a battle not spend with out reason.
Not trying reinvent the wheel here. Taking a simple robots dragns Icarus list and adding the knight while I retain high cp, CP recycling and cc options. If the super heavy +3 armiger's +knight is valid seems like my competitive list!
Beware that your superheavy detachment won't give you household traditions, when you decide to take the 3CP.
Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote: Okay, I sat down and did the math (this is my first time really doing this, so I suspect I've made some errors). I wanted to compare the Helverin's autocannons to the Icarus Array Dunecrawlers, both with and without Cawl.
Wounds/Turn: Icarus Array V Helverin GEQ : 3.89 V 3.8 MEQ : 2.06 V 1.8 Primaris : 2.95 V 3.6 TEQ : 2.13 V 2.4 Rhino : 2.28 V 4 Landraider : 1.25 V 1.8 Stormraven : 3.05 V 3 Custodes Bikers : 2.79 V 3.56 Raider : 2.26 V 5.4
Wounds/Turn: Icarus Array (With re-rolls to hit) V Helverin GEQ : 5.83 V 3.8 MEQ : 3.08 V 1.8 Primaris : 4.43 V 3.6 TEQ : 3.19 V 2.4 Rhino : 3.43 V 4 Landraider : 1.88 V 1.8 Stormraven : 4.06 V 3 Custodes Bikers : 2.99 V 3.56 Raider : 6.09 V 5.4
In summary, if you're not running Cawl, the Helverin looks to outperform Dunecrawlers in most cases on a wound/turn basis. If you did the same look at the Neutron Laser, the Helverin comes out ahead in either case against all targets that aren't landraiders. I'm sure someone could adjust these for the relative points difference between the models or other factors though. Helverins could be a effective component of competitive AdMech Soup in the future.
For my own benefit, I did a comparison between Icarus crawlers near a TPD, and Helverins near a Preceptor:
Spoiler:
This compares the two with and without stratagem use on optimal targets. I included the stubber on both the Dunecrawler and Helverin. I must be missing something because the Helverins seem very niche. Is there a juicy target for them that I didn't include? Is my math and/or methodology broken?
Nobody thinking of running two Dominus class? I am thinking double Valiant or one Valiant and one Castallen is pretty good. You can run it in a lance with another normal knight. Its not cheap, but a Valiant or Castallen is only marginally more expensive than a normal knight, yet has 4 more HP and brings a heck of a lot more firepower into the picture compared to a normal knight.
I am even thinking of scrimping on that one normal knight (get a pure melee Gallant) so that I can afford the points for two Dominus classes.
Yoda79 wrote: Suzuteo I like your list but I removed guard entirely adding a battalion of Mars with Cawl and Robots. I remove some units add some others but more or less I use the ad mech 6 s for cp cycling . Why cause I trust Cawl with 4 Robots provide an extreme threat my enemies need to deal with . So knight Dragoons priests Cawl Robots all bad ass threats none to be ignored. Now I'm testing how to fit the knight but I'm heading towards Mars battalion stygies vang or out even second batt if allowed from competition rules. Need the CP s to make it work. Something along these lines!!
Unfortunately, I don't think that works even with two Battalions. 6+/6+ is not enough CP recycling; I even wish I had the extra 5+ from Vitae. Anyhow, you won't have enough CP to run your Kastelans (1 to set up; 2 per turn), Dragoons (1 per turn), Electro-Priests (3 per turn), and Knight (2 at pre-deploy, 1 to Full Tilt, 4 per turn). Furthermore, I am not sure if Cawl is worth it if you're only running 4 Kastelans and no Crawlers or anything else.
lash92 wrote: Maybe keep a cheap Guard Batallion (5CP for 180 points is just so good) and make a mixed AdMech Batallion:
- Cawl and Techpriest(for Knight repair)
- 3x5 Graia Troops for deny stratagem
- Priest and Dragoon Stygies
- Robots Mars
I considered this too. It's actually a really neat idea, but as I mentioned before, it is hard to fit 5-6 Kastelans in. Still keeping it in the back of my mind though.
Wulfey wrote: If the rules support it, I think the best knight to run along with mechanicus would actually be the castellon.
Superheavy Auxiliary (so no household bonus, but it still has RAVEN for strategem purposes ... still gets strategems but no automatic character).
1x RAVEN (mechanicus) Castellon - spend 1CP to make it a character with exalted court and give it the 2+ armor WLT (then put it behind a big piece of terrain for 50% cover) xor give it 4++ if terrain sucks, spend another 1CP for Cawl's wrath.
Every turn spend 2CP for the RAVEN strategem to give reroll 1s to everything. Now that d6 shots, 2d6 shots, 3+ to hit, 1 damage rolls, wound rolls of 1 ... EVERYTHING ... get the rerolls. That is one shooty boi. LIke damn. If he takes damage, 1CP to ignore the damage table. Fix him for 1 health a turn every turn with your STYGIES detachment.
Wulfey wrote: Yeah I can't decide on either a Valiant or a Castellon. I have 3 questoris chassis fully magnetized up so I am going to run them for a while. I can't possibly buy until I have the codex in hand to hard confirm the households for single knights rule. From Geoff it looks like you only get tradition bonuses if you have a knight LANCE, not just a superheavy auxilliary detachment.
Castellan is the best Dominus choice for AdMech, but I have concerns about its durability and the risk that comes with investing so heavily into one model.
The Raven stratagem is super solid. Makes everything so much more reliable.
If Household Traditions require a Lance, it is not in the Knight Lance rule. At least not the online version. It might be in the Household Traditions section though.
Yoda79 wrote: What I m trying is to get an army list like
Battalion ( Mars prolly)
Vanguard or outrider (stygies prolly)
Super heavy (2*1 armiger's 1*knight)
That's a total of 12 cp with 6s recycling. Closest to ad mech pure but with a knight to get some cc durability . Trying to have best ad mech while the knights supplement the role of 2* Icarus I used to have while the big knight finally give us melle options.
Not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Taking a simple robots dragns Icarus list and adding the knight while I retain high cp, CP recycling and cc options. If the super heavy +3 armiger's +knight is valid seems like my competitive list!
Why cause 2* battlions is nice to practise games tons of CP but personally I consider no detachment restrictions a fun tour. Competitive wise single use of detachments is essential for sane games. Practise sure extreme lists sure but we need to keep this game about choises not default options. It's how you use your resources eventually to win a battle not spend with out reason.
you dont get your CP for the SHD. You need three big knights for that. Which sucks.
axisofentropy wrote: I think all Knight Detachments get Household Traditions. You only need a Knight Lance to get a free Character and the +3 CP.
So you think it works not like the leaked page from the codex shows? You have insight information that GW is going to release errata right away saying ignore that part?
tneva82 wrote: It's in page detailing all the benefits imperial knight detachments(and then excludes auxiliary) gets. So bit over kniggt lance paragraph
Do you have a source? I would very much like to know.
tneva82 wrote: It's in page detailing all the benefits imperial knight detachments(and then excludes auxiliary) gets. So bit over kniggt lance paragraph
Do you have a source? I would very much like to know.
That page lists all the benefits knight detachments gets including traditions. Note how that imperial knight detachment then specifically excludes auxiliary.
Suzuteo wrote:
Castellan is the best Dominus choice for AdMech, but I have concerns about its durability and the risk that comes with investing so heavily into one model.
The Raven stratagem is super solid. Makes everything so much more reliable.
The one problem is that rotating it shields is 3CP instead of 1, so you are required to have 2 Batallions to support this imo. But before that we were playing with units of 6 Robots, thats pretty much also the defintion of all eggs in on basket xD
Suzuteo wrote:
tneva82 wrote: It's in page detailing all the benefits imperial knight detachments(and then excludes auxiliary) gets. So bit over kniggt lance paragraph
Do you have a source? I would very much like to know.
It says: "Imperial Knight Detachments (excluding Super Heavy Aux" gain the following abilites" and than it lists the Lance, Household Traditions and Freeblade rules.
So it´s unfortunaly pretty clear imo...
It says: "Imperial Knight Detachments (excluding Super Heavy Aux" gain the following abilites" and than it lists the Lance, Household Traditions and Freeblade rules.
So it´s unfortunaly pretty clear imo...
ha? so Freeblades taken in an Super Heavy Aux dont get Qualities and Burdens? oO
But at least we get the stratagems.
Suzuteo wrote: Wow. So no Freeblade auxiliaries either? That's super unfluffy.
Anyhow, we still get stratagems, and the generic WLTs and relics are still the best.
Sigh. That Raven tradition was something though.
Yeah I was a bit sad last night when I realised my House Taranis Knight Crusader can't have his 6+ FNP unless I go and buy a box of 2 Helverins or Warglaives.
But... as far as I can tell you can still get access to the stratagems from a Super Heavy Aux Detachment... so you can...
Pregame
1 CP to make it a character and give a warlord trait
1 CP to buy a relic (Endless Fury)
Midgame
1 CP for Knight of the Cog - perhaps every turn
1 CP for Machine Spirit Resurgent - perhaps twice in a game
2 CP for Our Darkest Hour to respawn the knight after it dies
Quite CP expensive but should be ok. All you lose is the 6+ FNP so it's not a disaster.
Yeah I was a bit sad last night when I realised my House Taranis Knight Crusader can't have his 6+ FNP unless I go and buy a box of 2 Helverins or Warglaives.
But... as far as I can tell you can still get access to the stratagems from a Super Heavy Aux Detachment... so you can...
Pregame
1 CP to make it a character and give a warlord trait
1 CP to buy a relic (Endless Fury)
Midgame
1 CP for Knight of the Cog - perhaps every turn
1 CP for Machine Spirit Resurgent - perhaps twice in a game
2 CP for Our Darkest Hour to respawn the knight after it dies
Quite CP expensive but should be ok. All you lose is the 6+ FNP so it's not a disaster.
Yeah. It's weird how 2x1 Helverins will give you the tradition, but not the CP.
Don't forget Full Tilt. And if you do Raven, you get to reroll 1s in everything; while the psychological effect of Our Darkest Hour is devastating, I think rerolling 1s for everything every turn the Knight is alive is more impactful.
Finally, I know you run a Crusader, but Death Grip and Devastating Reach are also great. It's why I think the standard is going to actually be a Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear.
Honestly if playing one Knight in an Aux detachment Ill go with Taranis and a Gallant. A lot of you guys like the Warden but what the Gallant brings to the table is 5 Attacks and 2+ WS, that is hitting on 3s with the normal Gauntlet instead of 4s with 4 attacks. that is actually a huuuuuge difference.
A Raven Crusader could be fine as well. For me its either completely melee murder mode or range knight, I am not a fan of taking something thats neither here nor there. but thats just me.
Suzuteo wrote: Wow. So no Freeblade auxiliaries either? That's super unfluffy.
Anyhow, we still get stratagems, and the generic WLTs and relics are still the best.
Sigh. That Raven tradition was something though.
Yeah I was a bit sad last night when I realised my House Taranis Knight Crusader can't have his 6+ FNP unless I go and buy a box of 2 Helverins or Warglaives.
But... as far as I can tell you can still get access to the stratagems from a Super Heavy Aux Detachment... so you can...
Pregame
1 CP to make it a character and give a warlord trait
1 CP to buy a relic (Endless Fury)
Midgame
1 CP for Knight of the Cog - perhaps every turn
1 CP for Machine Spirit Resurgent - perhaps twice in a game
2 CP for Our Darkest Hour to respawn the knight after it dies
Quite CP expensive but should be ok. All you lose is the 6+ FNP so it's not a disaster.
Whilst it’s a silly design choice I guess it comes down to average wounds back. (4) versus 2x 177 =354 free points
Don't forget Full Tilt. And if you do Raven, you get to reroll 1s in everything; while the psychological effect of Our Darkest Hour is devastating, I think rerolling 1s for everything every turn the Knight is alive is more impactful.
Finally, I know you run a Crusader, but Death Grip and Devastating Reach are also great. It's why I think the standard is going to actually be a Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear.
Yeah... I mean I am a bit of a powergamer in that I always run soup... but at least I tend to pick a datasheet and a Chapter/Regiment/House, build and paint it like that, then play it with those rules. Not a fan of a red and black knight covered in Taranis logos that's counts-as Hawkshroud. A bit vomity.
I did magnetise the Crusader at first but the arms were super wobbly where they joined, so I glued them.
If they sold imperial knight shoulders somewhere... you know, the rotating bit that fits to the body... I would buy more of those. Hmmm...
So the question remains! And most likely not gonna take helverins.
If I can't gain cp in my mind before any other option I'm forced to use knights only with 2 more battalions. What is the point if we don't get CP to run anything bigger than a S aux knight. I can use The classik Cawl Robots onagers even as spearhead for 1 CP since it's better than helverins and Gatling even if I pay CP to get the relic one? Rerollimg everything with robots tons of hots and wom options while buffing onagers as well can't be excluded. And since I get minimum 1 CP from it I don't see helverins for me. Maybe someone is trying to get the same option without ad mech. But for us already with a Cawl star seems pointless.
As mentioned above cheap solo superaux gallant seems only viable as seen so far! If it's allowed 2 battalions must for cp or even brigade. But can't work a good list if we need to get different detachments without the super heavy +3 CP.
The whole deal was to gain those 3 CP with hlverins and a knight option but it sucks. And we are Mechanicus forum here there is a knight section for more on knights. Plz try to remain Mechanicus and knights options in here!
Suzuteo wrote: Wow. So no Freeblade auxiliaries either? That's super unfluffy.
Anyhow, we still get stratagems, and the generic WLTs and relics are still the best.
Sigh. That Raven tradition was something though.
Yeah I was a bit sad last night when I realised my House Taranis Knight Crusader can't have his 6+ FNP unless I go and buy a box of 2 Helverins or Warglaives.
But... as far as I can tell you can still get access to the stratagems from a Super Heavy Aux Detachment... so you can...
Pregame
1 CP to make it a character and give a warlord trait
1 CP to buy a relic (Endless Fury)
Midgame
1 CP for Knight of the Cog - perhaps every turn
1 CP for Machine Spirit Resurgent - perhaps twice in a game
2 CP for Our Darkest Hour to respawn the knight after it dies
Quite CP expensive but should be ok. All you lose is the 6+ FNP so it's not a disaster.
I'm considering running some combination of 3 Helverins or Warglaives to benefit from the FNP, and save the points from the Questoris for more Dragoons and Dunecrawlers/Robots. Do we think Teranis is worth it just for Our Darkest Hour? It seems awfully strong when paired with plentiful CP and CP regeneration.
I like the idea of an entire army of mid-sized T6/7 fast angry robot walkers (joined of course by rangers and a guard battalion for the CP benefits)
I also appreciate that there are multiple good choices among the household traditions for mechanicus knights, makes list-building more exciting.
Suzuteo wrote: Wow. So no Freeblade auxiliaries either? That's super unfluffy.
Anyhow, we still get stratagems, and the generic WLTs and relics are still the best.
Sigh. That Raven tradition was something though.
Yeah I was a bit sad last night when I realised my House Taranis Knight Crusader can't have his 6+ FNP unless I go and buy a box of 2 Helverins or Warglaives.
But... as far as I can tell you can still get access to the stratagems from a Super Heavy Aux Detachment... so you can...
Pregame
1 CP to make it a character and give a warlord trait
1 CP to buy a relic (Endless Fury)
Midgame
1 CP for Knight of the Cog - perhaps every turn
1 CP for Machine Spirit Resurgent - perhaps twice in a game
2 CP for Our Darkest Hour to respawn the knight after it dies
Quite CP expensive but should be ok. All you lose is the 6+ FNP so it's not a disaster.
I'm considering running some combination of 3 Helverins or Warglaives to benefit from the FNP, and save the points from the Questoris for more Dragoons and Dunecrawlers/Robots. Do we think Teranis is worth it just for Our Darkest Hour? It seems awfully strong when paired with plentiful CP and CP regeneration.
I like the idea of an entire army of mid-sized T6/7 fast angry robot walkers (joined of course by rangers and a guard battalion for the CP benefits)
I also appreciate that there are multiple good choices among the household traditions for mechanicus knights, makes list-building more exciting.
I’m also going Taranis. Kinda sad that there is not much hype from the more competitive players regarding this household. Personally the idea of zombie knights coming back to life and kicking bottom makes me smile
I want play a Knight Lance together with an Ad-Mech Detachment.
Can I use the QUESTOR MECHANICUS Stratagems from the Ad-Mech Codex for my Knight Lance? If this is possible, you can use Rotate Ion Shields two times. Or use Rotate Ion Shields from the AD-Mech Codex for 1CP on a Dominus Knight.
oOSkyOo wrote: I want play a Knight Lance together with an Ad-Mech Detachment.
Can I use the QUESTOR MECHANICUS Stratagems from the Ad-Mech Codex for my Knight Lance? If this is possible, you can use Rotate Ion Shields two times. Or use Rotate Ion Shields from the AD-Mech Codex for 1CP on a Dominus Knight.
Sounds normal to me.
Yes. All AdMech stratagems relating to Knights are also in the Knights codex. But stratagems with the same name are considered the same stratagem. This was well-established for Space Marine stuff.
oOSkyOo wrote: I want play a Knight Lance together with an Ad-Mech Detachment.
Can I use the QUESTOR MECHANICUS Stratagems from the Ad-Mech Codex for my Knight Lance? If this is possible, you can use Rotate Ion Shields two times. Or use Rotate Ion Shields from the AD-Mech Codex for 1CP on a Dominus Knight.
Sounds normal to me.
The new Rotate Ion Shield overrides the old one.
Are you sure that Stratagems in other can be override?
Yoda79 wrote: So the question remains! And most likely not gonna take helverins.
If I can't gain cp in my mind before any other option I'm forced to use knights only with 2 more battalions. What is the point if we don't get CP to run anything bigger than a S aux knight. I can use The classik Cawl Robots onagers even as spearhead for 1 CP since it's better than helverins and Gatling even if I pay CP to get the relic one? Rerollimg everything with robots tons of hots and wom options while buffing onagers as well can't be excluded. And since I get minimum 1 CP from it I don't see helverins for me. Maybe someone is trying to get the same option without ad mech. But for us already with a Cawl star seems pointless.
As mentioned above cheap solo superaux gallant seems only viable as seen so far! If it's allowed 2 battalions must for cp or even brigade. But can't work a good list if we need to get different detachments without the super heavy +3 CP.
The whole deal was to gain those 3 CP with hlverins and a knight option but it sucks. And we are Mechanicus forum here there is a knight section for more on knights. Plz try to remain Mechanicus and knights options in here!
Taking 2 Armigers gives you a Household Tradition and Freeblade. Taking 2 Questoris or Dominus gives you Household Tradition, Freeblade, and +3 CP. The value proposition is questionable, but Raven Warden and 2 Warglaives actually sounds pretty useful the more I think about it. They only cost 164 now, so if we consider them 20 points overcosted, we are paying 40 points to give us a free advance move. That might be worthwhile.
I am not a big fan of Helverins. Three reasons why:
1) They are hyper-specialized against T6 multi-wound models.
2) They sort of need the Perceptor to be comparable to an Icarus Crawler in any way.
3) The Perceptor sucks. Its weapon is a half-range RFBC and half-range TC with +2 strength. Neither of those guns are renowned for their efficiency, but at least they had that range until the Perceptor came along.
I think two Battalions and a Knight are the way to go. And like WarCon of old, the strategy would be to kill everything that threatens your Knight, then systematically shut him out of the game. (Except we don't get like 500 points of free upgrades or universal Canticles. Lol.)
I consider Questor Mechanicus to be AdMech. But I feel sorry for those guys in the Knight thread trying to make Knight Lances work. (Spoiler: They don't. Not unless GW decides to make Knight Lance +5 CP and allow them to mix Household Traditions. Maybe just make them single allegiance rather than single house.)
oOSkyOo wrote: I want play a Knight Lance together with an Ad-Mech Detachment.
Can I use the QUESTOR MECHANICUS Stratagems from the Ad-Mech Codex for my Knight Lance? If this is possible, you can use Rotate Ion Shields two times. Or use Rotate Ion Shields from the AD-Mech Codex for 1CP on a Dominus Knight.
Sounds normal to me.
The new Rotate Ion Shield overrides the old one.
Are you sure that Stratagems in other can be override?
Huh? I am saying that the new Rotate Ion Shield is the only Rotate you are now allowed to use. It is errata.
I think two Battalions and a Knight are the way to go. And like WarCon of old, the strategy would be to kill everything that threatens your Knight, then systematically shut him out of the game. (Except we don't get like 500 points of free upgrades or universal Canticles. Lol.)
I consider Questor Mechanicus to be AdMech. But I feel sorry for those guys in the Knight thread trying to make Knight Lances work. (Spoiler: They don't. Not unless GW decides to make Knight Lance +5 CP and allow them to mix Household Traditions. Maybe just make them single allegiance rather than single house.)
I´ll definitely run an AdMech Batallion + prob a small Guard Batallion, because man are those Knights CP hungry....
Still not sure which Knight I want though... I´m kind of drawn to a Raven Castellan or maybe a Crusader but I´m not quite sure how it´s offensive output is. You have settled yourself on a Warden?
So has anyone already played with the new Knights and could relayback their opinion?
Yeah. Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear, Ion Bulwark for the WLT and either Endless Fury or Paragon Gauntlet for the relic. Costs 461 points and 2 CP.
Considering if I want to bring Warglaives or Helverins. The former seems more useful for skirmishing and anti-horde. The latter for killing transports and battlesuits.
I think it really depends on what you plan on taking for the rest of your army. I would take Warglaives since my Admech has 2-3 Icarus Onagers, so I don´t think i need more S7 long range firepower.
Ugh. I have no idea how to fit 328/348 points into my list. They don't even fulfill an important role. Warglaives are nice to have skirmishers that are strictly inferior to Dragoons. Helverins have this weird anti-T6 role. I guess I could cut my artillery for them, but cheap indirect fire is nice.
Thats why you should maybe look into a Crusader instead of the Warden?
I really can see arguments for a Warden (+ man does the Gauntlet look sexy^^), but a Crusader wouldn´t be so dependend on the Raven trait.
lash92 wrote: I think it really depends on what you plan on taking for the rest of your army. I would take Warglaives since my Admech has 2-3 Icarus Onagers, so I don´t think i need more S7 long range firepower.
I'll be honest I'm mainly looking at warglaives to replace neutron onagers, so my ratio would be something like 2-3 Icarus Onager, 2-4 Raven warglaives, and then the rest depending on my mood and how the models work. With the range the thermal Lance has and the melta profile, I feel most of the time it's damage will be roughly the same, except I can also charge or use them to grab objectives.
I really don't like the dragoon models and can't really afford to run 6 of them at the moment, so warglaives are nice as a budget stopgap since you can get them for $20 and they also have guns, not to mention 2 different CQC profiles. Plus they're far easier to build and paint from the look of it I'm sure dragoons are mathematically superior but as I'm not planning on winning a GT any time soon warglaives seem like they'll be plenty good enough in the mean time.
If you want to replace those Neutron Onagers then take Warglaives for sure.
Ah it´s a shame you don´t like the Dragoon, it such a nice mode imo, but it´s a pain to build and paint. The thing with Dragoons is, that you really do not need a second profile, since your profile paired with the number of attacks you get is just pretty good for killing essential everything.
Lol. I'm pretty sure even the Chaos stratagems with the same are intended to replace the previous iteration.
Anyhow. Anyone have a list with 2 Helverins or Warglaives that they want to share? Aside from ditching all my indirect artillery, I'm not sure what options I've got. I mean, I don't have any Crawlers to replace.
Also, curious what everyone's running for Taranis. Gallant? Crusader? I feel the extra durability and 50% chance to zombify can't compare to two to three turns of rerolling 1s while shooting, stomping, crushing and throwing. Raven Warden can make an impact right away and perhaps pay off much faster than Taranis Crusader or much more consistently than Taranis Gallant.
Suzuteo wrote: Ugh. I have no idea how to fit 328/348 points into my list. They don't even fulfill an important role. Warglaives are nice to have skirmishers that are strictly inferior to Dragoons. Helverins have this weird anti-T6 role. I guess I could cut my artillery for them, but cheap indirect fire is nice.
I'm not entirely convinced that Warglaives are strictly inferior. From a durability perspective, even accounting for the points difference and the -1 to hit, a Teranis Helverin/Warglave is more durable than a Dragoon against small arms fire and things like autocannons and plasma. They are less durable against melta and lascannon like weapons though.
And as far as damage output, with the new mode the Chain-Cleaver closes the gap some versus more targets (especially v. GEQ/MEQs). The damage out per point is less in CC for sure, but I think if you factor in the shooting, the gap may vanish.
If you're just taking Armigers, I think Teranis is the way to go since they don't benefit from Raven as much as Questoris knights. The only model that wants to advance and use Full Tilt already has assault weapons, and a 6++ helps both variants. Although if you're doing all Warglaive or all Helverins, you'd probably want to take Krast or Vulker.
I could be wrong on all of this, but I'm considering a list something like this:
I dunno, I was going to start with this and see where things go from there. My area almost exclusively plays ITC, even for casual games, and this list is meant more to be fun to use and have lots of fun little combos than crush some GT. Obviously in reality you'd want stygies and something like Cadians or Catachans in a more competitive list, but even swapping forgeworlds and regiments the list would be mostly the same. Valhallans are fun because their tanks degrade slower which means they pair well with enginseers (even from a single wound you can get a tank to full BS with a single repair) and Valhallan infantry can fire into combat, which pairs well with vanguard against turn 1 alpha charges and means you can potentially free up armigers that get tied up by a couple of surviving tac marines or something, as well as free up the Leman Russes and Onagers if they get charged. Metallica lets you be aggressive with the Vanguard, but if I'm going to be honest the only real reason I'm running them is because that's how they're painted. As for house Raven, that's who supposedly works with Metallica so that's who I'm running. Their trait matches well with the Metallica trait at least. Other than that I don't know a ton about them yet so I'm not sure what'll change with them once I get the codex in my hands.
I had to do a rough points hash out for the knights, so the list will probably need to be tweaked some once I know more.
Spoiler:
Admech Batallion - Metallica
Enginseer - Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
Enginseer
x9 Vanguard
x9 Vanguard
x9 Vanguard
x9 Vangaurd
Icarus Onager
Icarus Onager
Imperial Guard Batallion - Valhallan
Company commander - Bolt Gun, Warlord, Kurov's aquilla
Company Commander - Mk 45 pistol, Power Sword (its Chenkov)
Infantry squad - Plasma, Heavy Bolter, bolt gun sarge
Infantry squad - Plasma, Heavy Bolter, bolt gun sarge
Infantry squad - Plasma, Heavy Bolter, bolt gun sarge
Infantry squad - Plasma, Heavy Bolter, bolt gun sarge
Infantry squad - Plasma, Heavy Bolter, bolt gun sarge
Mortar Heavy Weapon Squad
Mortar Heavy Weapon Squad
x2 Leman Russ Battle tanks and an Executioner tank in squadron
If you are going to add just 350 to your list, why not go with a TERRYN gallant? It won't have a household bonus (FAQ pending), but you can spend 2CP to give it either the +2" charge WLT or the 4++ shield WLT and then give it either the gauntlet or the 2+ armor relic. Spend 2CP for full tilt, and if it makes it into combat you can spend another 3CP for it to fight twice (RAW it fights any time after fighting, so it can swing like a berserker, not like HONOR THE CHAPTER at the end of the phase). That is a nasty 350 point wrecking ball that absolutely must be shot to death before anything else in your army takes damage. Sure, that is a lot of CP, but that gallant threatens a charge out to 26" on the first turn (12" move plus 3.5+2 advance + 7+2 charge distance).
What is really great about the knight codex is that the strategems to pick WLTs and Relics are all at the start of the game. You can read your opponent and decide how you want to kit up. Against some lists you might not even need any CP into the knight since you know they are coming for you.
EDIT: also, full household TERRYN gallants that outflank are rigged. Like damn. Take the +2" charge WLT and the gauntlet relic. Your out of outflank charge on turn 2 needs to hit a 7 with 3d6 drop the lowest.
EDIT2: if you want to bring back that warconvocation feeling ... consider a KRAST knight crusader with BC/Stormspear. Yeah 490 points is a lot for what he is. But wait. Check your opponents list. Does he have a lot of shooting? If not, try this: WLT: reroll 1s to hit for your WL (4++ if they got lascannons), Relic: headsmans mark, your weapons deal +1 damage versus 10W+ and +2 damage versus titanic. This even applies to stomps! STubbers that do 2 damage! BC that does D3+1! The gatler does 4 damage a shot versus TITANIC. This setup only needs 2CP to get going and all the benefits are passive. Throw the knight 2CP over the game for ion shields for first turn, then put in machine spirit resurgent on turn 4. Your enginseer can even fix this knight since it is mechanicus. What a beast! There are even some real dirty admech plays where you give him canticles for +1 str and then stomp out another knight to death in a single turn. 12 stomps rerolling 1s to hit, each stomp str9 and doing D3+2!!!!! D3+2!
"They're exaggerating a little bit, that isn't what was said. The fires writer was on the stream and did explain that he had written it as a freelancer, then moved jobs and 8th happened, so it needs some rework now that isn't scheduled before HH: Malevolence. They definitely didn't say it was dead or not happening - just that it needed to be worked on and there hasn't been time.
It's not been cancelled. FB drama can be safely ignored that said, don't expect it soon!"
Also from Stray
I DID ask on stream about Secutarii Titan Guard for my Mechanicus brothers and sisters here though. And I was answered!..
...you won't like the answer sadly :/
I asked: 'Can we get some 40K beta rules for Secutarii? We had them in 7th, but they've never been made available in 8th.' The head of FW, Tony said there's no intention of moving them across to 40k sadly. They want a certain level of separation between the two games, and so no Secutarii plans for 40K at all.
Wulfey wrote: If you are going to add just 350 to your list, why not go with a TERRYN gallant? It won't have a household bonus (FAQ pending), but you can spend 2CP to give it either the +2" charge WLT or the 4++ shield WLT and then give it either the gauntlet or the 2+ armor relic. Spend 2CP for full tilt, and if it makes it into combat you can spend another 3CP for it to fight twice (RAW it fights any time after fighting, so it can swing like a berserker, not like HONOR THE CHAPTER at the end of the phase). That is a nasty 350 point wrecking ball that absolutely must be shot to death before anything else in your army takes damage. Sure, that is a lot of CP, but that gallant threatens a charge out to 26" on the first turn (12" move plus 3.5+2 advance + 7+2 charge distance).
What is really great about the knight codex is that the strategems to pick WLTs and Relics are all at the start of the game. You can read your opponent and decide how you want to kit up. Against some lists you might not even need any CP into the knight since you know they are coming for you.
EDIT: also, full household TERRYN gallants that outflank are rigged. Like damn. Take the +2" charge WLT and the gauntlet relic. Your out of outflank charge on turn 2 needs to hit a 7 with 3d6 drop the lowest.
EDIT2: if you want to bring back that warconvocation feeling ... consider a KRAST knight crusader with BC/Stormspear. Yeah 490 points is a lot for what he is. But wait. Check your opponents list. Does he have a lot of shooting? If not, try this: WLT: reroll 1s to hit for your WL (4++ if they got lascannons), Relic: headsmans mark, your weapons deal +1 damage versus 10W+ and +2 damage versus titanic. This even applies to stomps! STubbers that do 2 damage! BC that does D3+1! The gatler does 4 damage a shot versus TITANIC. This setup only needs 2CP to get going and all the benefits are passive. Throw the knight 2CP over the game for ion shields for first turn, then put in machine spirit resurgent on turn 4. Your enginseer can even fix this knight since it is mechanicus. What a beast! There are even some real dirty admech plays where you give him canticles for +1 str and then stomp out another knight to death in a single turn. 12 stomps rerolling 1s to hit, each stomp str9 and doing D3+2!!!!! D3+2!
Because it won't be a threat after turn one because its stats will have degraded to the point where it is a greater threat to itself in the fight phase than anything else? xD
3 Terryn Gallants is not scary at all due to one stratagem rule. Not to mention the fact that WLTs and relics are unique. Furthermore, there is the usual problem of doubling down on a particular set of strengths and weaknesses rather than diversifying the strategy. Dominant strategies can be effective, but not this one.
A Krast Crusader? That seems interesting. I never considered doubling down on Feet given how strong Gauntlet is now. Death Grip is incredible damage for 1 CP.
I think if we're doing anti-titanic, Shadowsword is still the way to go. It has the least number of dependencies and is low cost.
Also from Stray
I DID ask on stream about Secutarii Titan Guard for my Mechanicus brothers and sisters here though. And I was answered!..
...you won't like the answer sadly :/
I asked: 'Can we get some 40K beta rules for Secutarii? We had them in 7th, but they've never been made available in 8th.' The head of FW, Tony said there's no intention of moving them across to 40k sadly. They want a certain level of separation between the two games, and so no Secutarii plans for 40K at all.
Looks like Secutarii are going to continue to count as Rangers for me.
So what do you guys feel like is the best variant of knight to run with a Stygies VIII Battalion gunline with infiltrating Dragoons and 2 Helverins?
I like the Raven Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet and a Stormspear a lot, giving it Landstrider to advance it up turn 1 and using Full Tilt to charge but I feel like a Raven Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet and Stormspear and Ion Bulwark might be one of the best all rounders. The upgrade of the Paragon Gauntlet over the Thunderstrike Gauntlet outweighs the improvement of Endless Fury over a regular Avenger Gatling Cannon to me. Not only does the Paragon Gauntlet make it much more threatening against other Titanic units, it also makes its Death Grip more reliable since it's hitting on 3+ instead of 4+. I still feel like the Gallant is the best "duelist" out of all of them since given its 2+ WS and 5 attacks, the Paragon Gauntlet can one round another knight, let alone almost every vehicle in the game, fairly easily. But then again, having stronger shooting with the Warden is also appealing plus it can take advantage of Order of Companions to reroll all 1's during shooting way better. It's definitely going to be a hard choice for me to decide between them and I keep switching between one and the other.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what do you guys feel like is the best variant of knight to run with a Stygies VIII Battalion gunline with infiltrating Dragoons and 2 Helverins?
I like the Raven Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet and a Stormspear a lot, giving it Landstrider to advance it up turn 1 and using Full Tilt to charge but I feel like a Raven Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet and Stormspear and Ion Bulwark might be one of the best all rounders. The upgrade of the Paragon Gauntlet over the Thunderstrike Gauntlet outweighs the improvement of Endless Fury over a regular Avenger Gatling Cannon to me. Not only does the Paragon Gauntlet make it much more threatening against other Titanic units, it also makes its Death Grip more reliable since it's hitting on 3+ instead of 4+. I still feel like the Gallant is the best "duelist" out of all of them since given its 2+ WS and 5 attacks, the Paragon Gauntlet can one round another knight, let alone almost every vehicle in the game, fairly easily. But then again, having stronger shooting with the Warden is also appealing plus it can take advantage of Order of Companions to reroll all 1's during shooting way better. It's definitely going to be a hard choice for me to decide between them and I keep switching between one and the other.
My boi, I've got news for you. Gallants hit on 2s in close combat. The paragon gauntlet does not subtract from your to hit roll. So you get the deathgrip MWs on 2+.
I meant the Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet hits on 3+, sorry for the confusion. I was just making a case for using the Paragon Gauntlet + AGC over the Endless Fury + TSG combo.
I can see either relic being good depending on if you need shot volume or anti-tank.
Concerning Gallant, I think the problem with Gallant is that he has only one use: a blunt instrument designed to deal as much damage as possible before exploding.
In contrast, Warden and Crusader can do a lot of different things. Shooting, counter-charging, fighting, etc.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I like the Raven Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet and a Stormspear a lot, giving it Landstrider to advance it up turn 1 and using Full Tilt to charge.
This is a trap. For one you can't rely on getting T1 charge _unless enemy allows it_. And if that happens what you think he allows you to? Chaff. You get yourself isolated amidst enemy army.
LexOdin9 wrote: I think there's an argument to be made on using specialists rather than jack of all trade units.
I suppose it depends on your goals with the Knight. I personally don't think that things that cost 400+ points should be specialized. Rather, having versatility is important. One game plan could be to use the Knight to defend my artillery as it pounds the enemy. Another could be to use the rest of my army to remove threats to my Knight; once that is done, it can essentially operate unopposed.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I like the Raven Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet and a Stormspear a lot, giving it Landstrider to advance it up turn 1 and using Full Tilt to charge.
This is a trap. For one you can't rely on getting T1 charge _unless enemy allows it_. And if that happens what you think he allows you to? Chaff. You get yourself isolated amidst enemy army.
Yeah. Infantry sufficiently positioned forward of the gunline can stop a Knight from getting the T1 charge because we can only walk over them while FALLING BACK.
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. Infantry sufficiently positioned forward of the gunline can stop a Knight from getting the T1 charge because we can only walk over them while FALLING BACK.
And simply setting further back. 12"+6 advance"(land strider)+9"(landstrider charge)=27" so 28" average threat range. Deploying behind half line of DZ you are over 30" away. And that's assuming enemy put target you want to charge straight ahead and not diagonically(knights being small in numbers he can protect his key units to deploy later most likely) so...
And even if you succeed you are suddenly totally unsupported with enemy army around you...Say hello to rapid fire plasma's, melta's with melta bonus, counter charges etc
These are all great points. If I was going to run a Gallant, it would at least be supported by 4 infiltrating Dragoons and I'd have Kastelan Robots and Helverins to clear any screens but it's far from a guarantee that it'll work out the way I hope it would even with that. At least with a Warden with Ion Bulwark it'll be durable enough to live to charge whatever it wants turn 2 while contributing some meaningful shooting and by then the screen should be cleared.
Turns out Raven stratagem only works for shooting phase and not any phase it is used in. And Legendary Hero works each round, not each battle. Freeblades also work if you are battle-forged, not necessarily in a Lance.
So the frontrunners in my opinion have changed:
Raven Crusader with Avenger+TC+Stormspear, Ion Bulwark, and Endless Fury; you can also take RFBC if you have the points
Freeblade Warden with Avenger+Gauntlet+Stormspear, Legendary Hero (let's us reroll DAMAGE?!), Weary Machine Spirit+Haunted by Failure, Ion Bulwark, and Endless Fury or Paragon
Taranis Gallant with Reaper+Gauntlet, Landstrider, Sacred Ion
Degradation is more an issue with shooting knights that aren't valiants/acherons. Gallants degrade to hitting on 4+s, which isn't that bad. I think a solo gallant should be TERRYN but if you are going hardcore gallant spam then KRAST is the way to go. KRAST gives you full rerolls in combat which drastically mitigates degredation (even moreso than HAWKSHROUD). The rerolls make deathgrip even more useful. Further, a KRAST crusader is a savage anti tank platform with the +1/+2 damage relic.
EDIT: I think the solo KRAST crusader is being undervalued here. Straight up +damage against big targets is super strong. And if you can swing 2 armigers then the crusader and armigers reroll all their swings in combat.
My admech list would be particularly vulnerable to any kind of hardcore melee knight list. Slamcaptains are scary versus knights, but IMPERIALIS knights can swing in death and trade themselves versus slam captains. Dakkabots can kill a knight in a salvo, but the knights will be on top of you soon after. And a pure admech list ... just lol. Wow. Awful. A knight list can just run through the whole admech codex and stomp it to death. Sure, dragoons are modestly scary versus knights. But a melee knight will full kill a dragoon stack when it swings. Neutrons are scary, but knights have 4++ versus ranged now.
Wulfey wrote: Degradation is more an issue with shooting knights that aren't valiants/acherons. Gallants degrade to hitting on 4+s, which isn't that bad. I think a solo gallant should be TERRYN but if you are going hardcore gallant spam then KRAST is the way to go. KRAST gives you full rerolls in combat which drastically mitigates degredation (even moreso than HAWKSHROUD). The rerolls make deathgrip even more useful. Further, a KRAST crusader is a savage anti tank platform with the +1/+2 damage relic.
EDIT: I think the solo KRAST crusader is being undervalued here. Straight up +damage against big targets is super strong. And if you can swing 2 armigers then the crusader and armigers reroll all their swings in combat.
My admech list would be particularly vulnerable to any kind of hardcore melee knight list. Slamcaptains are scary versus knights, but IMPERIALIS knights can swing in death and trade themselves versus slam captains. Dakkabots can kill a knight in a salvo, but the knights will be on top of you soon after. And a pure admech list ... just lol. Wow. Awful. A knight list can just run through the whole admech codex and stomp it to death. Sure, dragoons are modestly scary versus knights. But a melee knight will full kill a dragoon stack when it swings. Neutrons are scary, but knights have 4++ versus ranged now.
Down a knight in a Salvo? Like one round of shooting? Maybe if you're running seven or eight and have Cawl and Wrath of Mars on six of them, but if we're going that far I'm guessing the Knight player is going to be using Rotate Ion Shields and Blessing of the Machine God. Sorry statements like that really irk me, over the top, not constructive, bombastic, unless you meant something else in which case I apologize.
And considering four measly Dragoons with Conqeror active can reliably knock off 10-12 wounds is nothing to stuff your nose at, and if they have +1 Str from Canticles it jumps to 14-16. Also Dunecrawlers are still fine, and hilariously Vanguard because of the way the wound tables work and the rad carbine special rule can plink Knights down thanks to their 3+ armor. Not to mention Stygies because -1 to hit ruins Knights shooting, no access to reliable rerolls and only one Strategem that allows one Knight to ignore the negative modifiers. Also one to two Knights will have a 4++ not all of them, shoot the one that's not the Warlord and change targets after Ion Shields has been popped.
And if you are truly going against a full Knight melee list a round of shooting followed by another round of chaff clearing by the Knights should give ample time to bring down one and severely wound another if not outright kill, unless you did bring five or six Kastelan, in which case, why?
Knights are strong but when you're only facing four models that doesn't scare me. And this is coming from someone who owns four Questors, four Armigers and a Valiant. It would be a good fight Knights vs AdMech but saying AdMech are awful by comparison is simply silly. I swear AdMech players are the worst.
I agree. Not particularly scared of Knights on their own. There are many ways to screen them away from your gunline and kill them before they get into melee range, and if it's just two sides taking turns shooting, we'll win.
This is also why I think solo Knights are ideal. You can support it with some great alpha assault units and shooting. Alternatively, it can support your gunline, protecting it from Slamguinius and the likes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a topic not related to Knights, I was beginning to kitbash some Electro-Priests (Mantic ghoul legs, Bloodletter torso, Flagellant weapons, Anvil Gladiator helmets and Gothic shoulders, Electro-Priest bushings), and I noticed something bothersome that compels me to ask this question: Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put these guys on 32mm bases?
1) The stock model easily fits on 25mm.
2) They're humans that are stripped to the waist.
Anyhow, I am probably going to base these guys on 25mm bases. Because I might have a use for them as melee Cultists too, if I ever decide to turn from the Emperor's light and play a Word Bearer's army or something.
If you play ITC then killing that small squad in non-LOS terrain can win you the game. There are giant point swings if you fail to kill a unit per turn. The Ironstorms, when taken in quantity, can threaten to kill that MSU unit your opponent has tucked on an objective. 3x ironstorms are 3d6 str5,-1,2dam guns that could plausibly kill 5x scout marines in a turn. Or kill 3x nurgling blobs. Or pop some pathfinders. 3x ironstorm pods are 48, 1x stormspear is 45. The knight list I had prepared for today but could get a game with had 3x ironstorms. They are for sure bad if you are trying to make a shooting knight. Or if you only have 1 knight because 1x ironstorm is never going to kill a unit and has marginal anti armor utility.
I would much rather just take some Mortar teams to do that job though. I mean, every Imperium list is going to be taking a barebones Guard battalion with 5+/5+ CP recycling anyway.
Wulfey wrote: If you play ITC then killing that small squad in non-LOS terrain can win you the game. There are giant point swings if you fail to kill a unit per turn. The Ironstorms, when taken in quantity, can threaten to kill that MSU unit your opponent has tucked on an objective. 3x ironstorms are 3d6 str5,-1,2dam guns that could plausibly kill 5x scout marines in a turn. Or kill 3x nurgling blobs. Or pop some pathfinders. 3x ironstorm pods are 48, 1x stormspear is 45. The knight list I had prepared for today but could get a game with had 3x ironstorms. They are for sure bad if you are trying to make a shooting knight. Or if you only have 1 knight because 1x ironstorm is never going to kill a unit and has marginal anti armor utility.
What goodies were in your bag of tricks today then?
Elite - 306 18x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 502
Lord of War - 502 Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Currently leaning toward the Crusader list. I've always considered adding a single Mortar team to get the fourth order from my Commanders. Plus Master of Ordnance on three Basilisks is actually quite cost-efficient. I lose one Fulgurite, but I get the Vanguard upgrade for my Skitarii, which lets them run around for a turn before they are mowed down by some anti-horde weapon.
Elite - 306 18x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 502
Lord of War - 502 Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Currently leaning toward the Crusader list. I've always considered adding a single Mortar team to get the fourth order from my Commanders. Plus Master of Ordnance on three Basilisks is actually quite cost-efficient. I lose one Fulgurite, but I get the Vanguard upgrade for my Skitarii, which lets them run around for a turn before they are mowed down by some anti-horde weapon.
If I’m determined to make Taranis work. What’s the knight for me?
Love both lists! But I agree the crusader seems more valid in ad mech soup. Most likely for cp usage . Priests and Dragoons need CP. Same goes for the knight. And if you aim for warden the CP are more demanding. You can still use the knight later on etc.
Still I m not sure! Cawl helps a lot vs 4+ bs and many armies giving you a -1 to hit as their defence I believe is important to use Cawl Mars robots onagers with reroll everything. Leave the guard and take a nice mech line and then use warden and rest to go deep behind enemy lines. Why would I need a guard.
Seems like I'm forced to take guard and I don't like it. And cause those basilisks didn't work well for me so far and because with Cawl and Robots I know 100% my enemy will be torn between offence and defence! Both will be superb Dragoons priests knight offensive onagers and Robots gun line . Seem v v hard to counter in my eyes. Ok I loose a bit of CP recycling but still getting 6' from ad mech and a bit of chaff still not bad with ad mech. Still not sure your lists seem nice suzuteo but still wondering!
Elite - 306 18x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 502
Lord of War - 502 Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Currently leaning toward the Crusader list. I've always considered adding a single Mortar team to get the fourth order from my Commanders. Plus Master of Ordnance on three Basilisks is actually quite cost-efficient. I lose one Fulgurite, but I get the Vanguard upgrade for my Skitarii, which lets them run around for a turn before they are mowed down by some anti-horde weapon.
If I’m determined to make Taranis work. What’s the knight for me?
Maybe a gallant or warden with the mark of the omnissiah and 3 CP for in our darkest hour and a CP reroll, that's what I'm doing at least.
lash92 wrote: Why are you leaning towards the Crusader, I thought you prefer the Warden?
Explained some of it, but the primary driver is that they released the actual copy of the Raven stratagem, which said it only affects shooting. I was thinking it affects either shooting or fighting, perhaps both. So it's a lot less powerful on a Raven now. Freeblade makes more sense for Warden. I think the Q&B combo is Legendary Hero + Weary Machine Spirit + Haunted by Failure.
Ideasweasel wrote: If I’m determined to make Taranis work. What’s the knight for me?
I think anyone can use Taranis. It's a nice durability bonus plus a chance to zombify. Your best bets are Crusader, Warden, or Gallant (in that order). I would consider which you want and then build around it; Crusader and Raven sort of look like my list, but the Gallant can go into a Cawlstar or more traditional gunline. Anyhow, I went with this composition because AdMech has one of the few remaining alpha strike capabilities right now, so I would use that to force the opponent to deploy and play defensively. Your artillery has more breathing space then; it's like a reverse scout move. Removing his anti-tank would then be key for your infiltrators though. Not 100% sure how effective it is in practice, but it is scary on paper.
Yoda79 wrote: Still I m not sure! Cawl helps a lot vs 4+ bs and many armies giving you a -1 to hit as their defence I believe is important to use Cawl Mars robots onagers with reroll everything. Leave the guard and take a nice mech line and then use warden and rest to go deep behind enemy lines. Why would I need a guard.
I think the Guard is necessary because we still need to control ground for objectives. It's nice that in this list, things can split up easier than a Cawlstar can. The Guard can be deployed on your side of the board; the Electro-Priests and Dragoons deploy for the assault; Vanguard and the Crusader can roam. Cawl and Kastelan Robots always end up making a "Cawl Wall" that anchors half the army between two objectives.
So guys I have a local tournament upcoming (1750pts) with some restrictions regarding list building, namely:
- max 2 detachments (one needs to be a batallion)
- max 1 LoW
I wanna take an Stygies Batallion backed up by a Knight, which leaves me with 8 CP to play with.
Basically what do you think which Knight works best with least / a low CP investment?
lash92 wrote: Yeah 2 detachments forgot the number...
Taransis was the Zombie one right?^^
Correct. Lots of defensive bonuses, and the fact that you are fighting in melee so often makes Rotate Ion Shields less important (though not unimportant, since enemies can fall back). Zombification is optional, but it is psychologically damaging.
But we don´t get Household Traditions in an Superheavy Aux. right? So wouldn´t a Krast Gallant be better, for the 1CP stratagem with exploding 6s in CQC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what do you guys feel like is the best variant of knight to run with a Stygies VIII Battalion gunline with infiltrating Dragoons and 2 Helverins?
Did you already had the opportunity for some testing?
I think i'm pretty much all-in on replacing onagers of all flavours with helverins. Lose the str and ap but they have the sweet spot of -2ap, anything with an invulnerable save makes anything above -3 worthless. and those helverin auto cannons are 4d3 and 3 damage each! Plus if I really need to kill something thats flying there's a knight strategm to give them +1 to hit flyers. Thats without even considering that they move 14 and fire without penalty, or with the right tradition, advance at no penalty. And they're pretty much guaranteed to be in range of anything I want to shoot at. 1 more wound and equivalent saves for 174 pts each. On an impossibly good day 1 of them could pull off 36 damage, which beats out a neutron laser and icarus onager and at greater range.
lash92 wrote: But we don´t get Household Traditions in an Superheavy Aux. right? So wouldn´t a Krast Gallant be better, for the 1CP stratagem with exploding 6s in CQC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what do you guys feel like is the best variant of knight to run with a Stygies VIII Battalion gunline with infiltrating Dragoons and 2 Helverins?
Did you already had the opportunity for some testing?
Not yet, my new IK stuff doesn't get in till Wednesday unfortunately. I did post the list I'm planning on running in the army lists forum. On paper it's pretty balanced at least!
Elite - 306 18x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 502
Lord of War - 502 Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Currently leaning toward the Crusader list. I've always considered adding a single Mortar team to get the fourth order from my Commanders. Plus Master of Ordnance on three Basilisks is actually quite cost-efficient. I lose one Fulgurite, but I get the Vanguard upgrade for my Skitarii, which lets them run around for a turn before they are mowed down by some anti-horde weapon.
If I’m determined to make Taranis work. What’s the knight for me?
Maybe a gallant or warden with the mark of the omnissiah and 3 CP for in our darkest hour and a CP reroll, that's what I'm doing at least.
Cool thanks for the input
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also cheers Suzuteo. I’m leaning towards either Crusader or Gallant myself. Might just flip a coin haha
Octovol wrote: I think i'm pretty much all-in on replacing onagers of all flavours with helverins. Lose the str and ap but they have the sweet spot of -2ap, anything with an invulnerable save makes anything above -3 worthless. and those helverin auto cannons are 4d3 and 3 damage each! Plus if I really need to kill something thats flying there's a knight strategm to give them +1 to hit flyers. Thats without even considering that they move 14 and fire without penalty, or with the right tradition, advance at no penalty. And they're pretty much guaranteed to be in range of anything I want to shoot at. 1 more wound and equivalent saves for 174 pts each. On an impossibly good day 1 of them could pull off 36 damage, which beats out a neutron laser and icarus onager and at greater range.
Actualy, the Skyreaper Protocols stratagem gives a re-roll failed hit rolls not +1 hit.
MORTAN helverins are pretty boss. You can give them IGNORE_MODIFIERS for 1CP and then give that one REROLL_V_FLY for another 1CP. That is a pretty consistently dead T6 flier.
Personally I think GW hit the mark with the Armigers. Either variant is perfectly viable but their viability heavily depends on the rest of your list. Just wish they would clarify if they get CP or not... Silly to include examples that seemingly contradict an ability unless that was how it was intended in the first place.
Well yes most likely in a tournament environment you might consider the two lists you mentioned suzuteo and I value mobility and options greatly in lists. But. We talking about the part mainly of
A) you use 3 basilisks that are stationary arty worse than Cawl star as I see it
B) if we can't use soup then with solo ad mech Robots onagers is a must. Icarus onagers.
C) If we ending up in 1750 lists or can't use 2* battalion etc then those Wrath of Mars Robots control half the table with shooting.
D) I only insist or try to test it it's because you asked the same question I did enemy chaff. Playing the knight lists in my mind since I don't have extensive table testing yet with it I asked the same question . You got a great option with infiltration priests Dragoons mobility with vanguard move move on soldiers and knight etc. I don't argue and I love the strat but using Cawl with 4 Robots and two icarus just becomes a leathal combination.
Sooner or later enemy lists will focus on some of your plan! You won't be able to use all stratagems priests need 3 to dual hit!!! What I say is of you go vs a hordish army with 2-3 planes like a typical Ork list then we getting stressed . No need to dual priests Dragoons already killing etc and somewhat the basilisk besides los hitting are not part of the missing antihorde now anti air.
Taking a strong and buff gallant cheap to supplement Dragoons priests and add him to an ad mech list missing exactly that a tough melee unit then depending on tour requirements taking guard won't be same effective as taking those superb antihorde reroll everything Cawl star. Even if you need a spearhead. So I'd consider still a list pure mech with a gallant more often than we might like!
lash92 wrote: Sure but this seems like overspecialization to me ^^
Helverins are specialized T6 killers in general.
@Yoda79
A) Yes, but it's only 354 points to get 3x Basilisk and the Master of Ordnance. Plus the MT doctrine, and you have roll two discard one shots, exploding 6s, reroll 1s to hit. Very efficient for the cost. Cawlstar needs 790 points and a lot more support to defend it, especially SM Scouts.
B) I think that list would be a Mixed AdMech Battalion, BA Battalion, and Guard Battalion. The lists I posted are more an experiment for Knights.
C) Yeah. If we go to 1750 points, AdMech gets a lot stronger. Infantry and cheap characters become more important, and we have great infantry and great anti-infantry and anti-characters.
D) Right. I would actually need to make Electro-Priests to test this thing. My list of stuff to paint grows monthly. These business trips to Japan are not helping.
Yoda79 wrote: Well yes most likely in a tournament environment you might consider the two lists you mentioned suzuteo and I value mobility and options greatly in lists. But. We talking about the part mainly of
A) you use 3 basilisks that are stationary arty worse than Cawl star as I see it
B) if we can't use soup then with solo ad mech Robots onagers is a must. Icarus onagers.
C) If we ending up in 1750 lists or can't use 2* battalion etc then those Wrath of Mars Robots control half the table with shooting.
D) I only insist or try to test it it's because you asked the same question I did enemy chaff. Playing the knight lists in my mind since I don't have extensive table testing yet with it I asked the same question . You got a great option with infiltration priests Dragoons mobility with vanguard move move on soldiers and knight etc. I don't argue and I love the strat but using Cawl with 4 Robots and two icarus just becomes a leathal combination.
Sooner or later enemy lists will focus on some of your plan! You won't be able to use all stratagems priests need 3 to dual hit!!! What I say is of you go vs a hordish army with 2-3 planes like a typical Ork list then we getting stressed . No need to dual priests Dragoons already killing etc and somewhat the basilisk besides los hitting are not part of the missing antihorde now anti air.
Taking a strong and buff gallant cheap to supplement Dragoons priests and add him to an ad mech list missing exactly that a tough melee unit then depending on tour requirements taking guard won't be same effective as taking those superb antihorde reroll everything Cawl star. Even if you need a spearhead. So I'd consider still a list pure mech with a gallant more often than we might like!
C) Yeah. If we go to 1750 points, AdMech gets a lot stronger. Infantry and cheap characters become more important, and we have great infantry and great anti-infantry and anti-characters.
Just out of curiosity: Would your list change drastically if we go 1750 or would you still play the same concept, i.e. Stygies Infiltration bomb.
I'm trying to build a cac mechanicus list: we have one of the best melee units in the game, the dragoons and with the aid of a Gallant i think a pure melee list is viable:
A Gallant with two armiger cannot be ignored by the enemy and they buy you time to arrive with the dragoons without spending CP.
Kataphron breachers, supported by a dominus with Prime Hermeticon are not bad: for 120 points you have 9 wounds, R5 and 9 attacks with fo 6.
- I'm building a dark mechanicus theme army, someone can suggest me a decent proxy for corpuscarii electropriest?
lash92 wrote: Just out of curiosity: Would your list change drastically if we go 1750 or would you still play the same concept, i.e. Stygies Infiltration bomb.
The infiltration bomb itself is unproven. But if I were to run a Knight, the way to do it is to run one and to kill everything that threatens it, which is what a bomb is good for.
At 1750 points, I would probably go back to Cawlstar. Knights are great at higher point counts, but not as efficient at lower point counts.
brugner8 wrote: I'm trying to build a cac mechanicus list: we have one of the best melee units in the game, the dragoons and with the aid of a Gallant i think a pure melee list is viable:
A Gallant with two armiger cannot be ignored by the enemy and they buy you time to arrive with the dragoons without spending CP.
Kataphron breachers, supported by a dominus with Prime Hermeticon are not bad: for 120 points you have 9 wounds, R5 and 9 attacks with fo 6.
- I'm building a dark mechanicus theme army, someone can suggest me a decent proxy for corpuscarii electropriest?
You could probably use the normal models and nurgle or tzeench them up for those gods, not too sure what to do with slaanesh or khorne though.
Weaknesses of the above? Better ditching infiltrators and swapping helverins for Icarus crawlers or would the above be quite cool?
Seems valid but if we remove entirely a third detachment we are not taking advantage of the infltration. If we are to decide in 1750 two detachments then Cawl is a big if. We take Cawl if we got 4+ robots and 2+* onagers else it's not really worth it. And yes if we go Mars infiltrators are an option still not the best competitive option. Why
A) infiltrators are an option for pure Mars if we take stygies no point !! Infiltrators are super against chaff and use wrath of Mars. That said no point taking Robots and infiltrators so no.
B) we don't want to remove the new faq benefits. So infiltration is number one the list building has prios. And for me a pure ad mech or ad mech and knights list has this prio.
2 battalions ≥ 1 battalion +1 super heavy ≥1 battalion.
And for strat
Infiltration ≥ melee (Dragoons - priests ) ≥gun line
For knights
Durability ≥ guns ≥ melee
So taking these under consideration or at least trying to explain my thinking I'd try to make for 1750 only 2 detachments something like
Add household char relics and more gear per choise switch vanguard for gauntlet etc! Every limitation we are adding changes the build drastically! Even with this list not having 2 battalions is an issue but since we getting a knight super heavy we are becoming elitist list. You will auto win list low in antiarmor that's why I'd risk with not having 2 battalions = less CP. Still a v mobile list you can mix max as you like maybe go for two wardens or full errants and Icarus carapce bla bla it's up to you. But I believe with 11 CP and good mobility will Ork better than any Robot line. Elite armies in smaller points get an advantage since many lists might not be prepared with enough antiarmor for your extreme mech lists. You d also not care for poison lists etc etc. That's what I'd take atm.
For three detachments again I can't ignore Suzuteo. He is right about the guard detachment and as I explained if we decide between one ad mech detachment then stygies we take first.
So I d recap!
Most likely if you take suzuteo list battalion battalion aux then guard basilisks Dragoons and priests then I'd recommend crusader ! List can be found from suzuteo originally posted.
I'd consider if you got a limitation to take more ad mech and no guard or you got no basilisks etc try the list I posted with 2 ad mech battalions and warden.
So turns out im havin a quite large game on saturday. Im facing a 2500 pt death guard + nurgle daemons (including a great unclean one) army.
My list will contain cawl, 3 dakkabots, 1 neutronager and some screeners accompanied by guiliman and 2 armigers+1 gallant. - the gallant (save relic + 1cp for 4++; house krast, for the +2hits on 6 stratagem), accompanied by the armiggers will be the center of my army and charge his marines asap. - dakkabots will clean the 40 zombiesoak block. - robs will charge, accompanied by 10 vanguards and get objectives near the center of the field.
now my main fear is his board control. how should i counter his nurglings all over the place? i have to get rid of them asap, since they will score almost all the objectives.
what would you suggest? shall i editmy list? get celestine instead of roboute? or leave those 2 at home and get a assassination vanguard (culexus!) ? or take a knight crusader with avenger and rfb?
Since we are talking more often about 1750 points now, I need your help guys. We got a new tournament system in Germany which restricts list building (unfortunaly) quite a bit and I´m really struggeling to find a list concept which can work under these conditions.
Here the restrictions:
- max 2 detachments, one needs to be a Batallion
- max 2 times the same unit, exception Standard and Transport, where you can take 5 times the same unit
- max 1 LoW - Some restrictions (regarding Units with the Keyword Vehicle, Monster, Battlesuit) which results in no more than 2 robots per unit and no more than 3 Dragoons per unit.
The missions are pretty ITC like.
So yeah that are pretty hefty restrictions for AdMech imo and I´m really struggeling to find a suitable list idea. I thought about:
- Mini Cawlstar (2x2 Robots + 2x Crawler) which leaves about 800 pts for other stuff
- Stygies Alpha strike bomb (3 Dragoons, 20 priest, maybe even 2x robots with fist + Tech Priest with Prime Hermeticon for full reroll to hit
- Graia mass infantry + Crawlers / Dragoon for +LD - Stygies Gunline + Dragoon + Knight
brugner8 wrote: I'm trying to build a cac mechanicus list: we have one of the best melee units in the game, the dragoons and with the aid of a Gallant i think a pure melee list is viable:
A Gallant with two armiger cannot be ignored by the enemy and they buy you time to arrive with the dragoons without spending CP.
Kataphron breachers, supported by a dominus with Prime Hermeticon are not bad: for 120 points you have 9 wounds, R5 and 9 attacks with fo 6.
- I'm building a dark mechanicus theme army, someone can suggest me a decent proxy for corpuscarii electropriest?
Dragoons and Gallant do the same thing though. Except the Dragoons are arguably more durable with -2 to hit and also have infiltration. I would much rather take Electro-Priests, which are infiltrating mortal wounds on a literal stick, or MAYBE Infiltrators, who have built-in Deep Strike. I would invest in better shooting instead, like Kastelans or Crawlers.
im having a hard time choosing between 2 dragoons and 2 warglaives. did any1 use the new warglaive? ist it any viable/ comparable to 2 dragoons entering combat?
Ah I think I had an idea myself:
Maybe I should run an Stygies Batallion + Blood Angels Batallion.
So what Blangels units did you find useful for souping? 2x Captain with Hammer and 3x5 Scouts for sure, but everything else?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do you have other Dragoons in your army? They really shine when taken in bigger units (4 or 6) because of the +2 to hit stratagem.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do you have other Dragoons in your army? They really shine when taken in bigger units (4 or 6) because of the +2 to hit stratagem.
Well no, and i guess i have to rune warglaives to get households + free character in my knight lance.
lash92 wrote: Some quick points regarding your list:
1) Drop the Dominus and add an Enginseer, you don´t need Dominus rerolls when you got Cawl.
- the dominus should accompany the breachers
2) Cut the Breachers, they are crap ^^
i need some cheap bodies to catch objectives and do some dmg to those flying dg helicopters
Then Kataphrons are the worst possible choice for you. What Breachers can do is to sit ahead of shooting castle and tank a bit, while contributing to shooting (especially if they are in range of Cawl rerolls). They're not cheap, they are not more mobile than Skitarii (and has only D3 advance), and while they can put a punch they need to stick to Cawl/TPD for reroll. BS4+ is a headache. They come in small numbers, so any Objective Secured troop will take objective from them by sheer numbders of models.
If you want a mobile objective-contesting infantry with a punch then Vanguards with plasmas. 5 man squad with even 2 plasmas is 68 pts while Kataphrons are 120.
Even Skitarii or Guardsmen are more durable than Breachers in terms of wounds. Lol...
I would go with Rangers if you intend to park them somewhere. Vanguard if you want to move around and shoot. Guardsmen are best overall though. Double the bodies and Move Move Move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lash92 wrote: Ah I think I had an idea myself:
Maybe I should run an Stygies Batallion + Blood Angels Batallion.
So what Blangels units did you find useful for souping? 2x Captain with Hammer and 3x5 Scouts for sure, but everything else?
In order of diminishing point efficiency:
Slamguinius + Laertes + 15x Death Company (12x Bolter/Chainsword, 3x Thunder Hammer)
Slamguinius + Mephiston
Slamguinius + Captain (Vitae or Hammer of Baal)
Use 2x Captain if you need them to be anti-vehicle. Otherwise, Laertes is great for consistency, especially if you bring 15x Death Company. Mephiston is nice because he would give you a Psychic phase and can operate entirely independently of the Captain.
For the top two, you can add a Techmarine with Beamer on foot (my preference) or in a bike holding Vitae. (For Laertes, you can do a Supreme Command detachment instead of a Battalion.)
In order of diminishing point efficiency:
Slamguinius + Laertes + 15x Death Company (12x Bolter/Chainsword, 3x Thunder Hammer)
Slamguinius + Mephiston
Slamguinius + Captain (Vitae or Hammer of Baal)
Use 2x Captain if you need them to be anti-vehicle. Otherwise, Laertes is great for consistency, especially if you bring 15x Death Company. Mephiston is nice because he would give you a Psychic phase and can operate entirely independently of the Captain.
For the top two, you can add a Techmarine with Beamer on foot (my preference) or in a bike holding Vitae. (For Laertes, you can do a Supreme Command detachment instead of a Battalion.)
Thanks for the input! I would definitely go for a Batallion, because I need those CP. So for clarification: Slamguinius is a Captain with Hammer, Stormshield and this Wings relic?
Also do your make your warlord AdMech or Blangels?
Slamguinius takes Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, and Angel Wing. He gets Death Visions stratagem for Death Company and Black Rage.
Ideally, you take a Company Commander as your Warlord for the 5+/5+ CP recycling. AdMech for Monitor Malevolent is acceptable as well. Otherwise, take Slamguinius as your Warlord for Artisan of War (+1 damage) or Gift of Foresight (5+ FNP, rerolling 1s).
Since I´m restricted to two detachments no Guard for me this time.
So some more questions:
1) Does the Monitor Malevolent trait stack with things like Veritas Vitae?
2) From which kit did you built / convert Slamguinius?
3) Anyway to make Scouts look more AdMechy?
lash92 wrote: Since I´m restricted to two detachments no Guard for me this time.
So some more questions:
1) Does the Monitor Malevolent trait stack with things like Veritas Vitae?
2) From which kit did you built / convert Slamguinius?
3) Anyway to make Scouts look more AdMechy?
1) Yes.
2) I bought a bunch of used Stormcast Eternal Prosecutors, cut the heads and shoulders off, added Space Marine heads and shoulders. Also remounted the wings on a Grey Knights plain ol' backpack. And viola, truescale Blood Angels for less than $10 each.
No photos because I am on a business trip. I will see if I can post some when I get home.
3) I made some Iron Hands Scouts death oathed to my AdMech army (which is not a Forge World, but a mendicant order):
Vanguard heads, Scout torsos and arms, Skitarii legs. I would not recommend the Skitarii legs. It's a pain to sculpt the missing portions where the robes go. Instead, get some Anvil Industry Exo-Lord bionic legs (http://anvilindustry.co.uk/The-Armoury/Exo-Lord-Bionics/Bionic-Legs-Conversion-Kit) or maybe wait for their Regiments bionic legs, which are coming out this week. I personally favor smaller Scouts on 25mm bases and full-grown Space Marines on 32mm bases and truescale.
So guys I need some C&C for a tournament list, which has some restrictions:
- max 2 detachments, one needs to be a Batallion
- max 2 times the same unit, exception Standard and Transport, where you can take 5 times the same unit
- max 1 LoW - Some restrictions (regarding Units with the Keyword Vehicle, Monster, Battlesuit) which results in no more than 2 robots per unit and no more than 3 Dragoons per unit.
lash92 wrote: Thanks for the pic and the tips, nice conversion!
So guys I need some C&C for a tournament list, which has some restrictions:
- max 2 detachments, one needs to be a Batallion
- max 2 times the same unit, exception Standard and Transport, where you can take 5 times the same unit
- max 1 LoW - Some restrictions (regarding Units with the Keyword Vehicle, Monster, Battlesuit) which results in no more than 2 robots per unit and no more than 3 Dragoons per unit.
What do you think? Is it a good concept under those restrictions? How would you improve etc.
Weird rules.
I would drop the Destroyers to put another 2 Kastelans in. I would also switch to MSUs of Vanguard with maximum one Caliver. Also drop the extra Heavy Stubbers on the Crawlers.
So this:
Spoiler:
Mordian Battalion Detachment - 199
HQ - 76 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Primaris Pysker - Force Stave, Laspistol, Relic: Kurov's Aquila
The biggest weakness of this list is that there are very few ways to efficiently convert CPs to wounds. It also has relatively poor anti-tank. Maybe consider Electro-Priests or a 3x Lascannon Ballistarii?
Yeah weird rules indeed, but this is the new tournament format in my region so I have to adept...
I can´t add another 2 Destroyers, because max 3 HS in a Batallion. Thats why I had the destroyers (but they are anti tank with 3D6 Plasma hitting on 3´s rerolling 1´s)
Death Company [27 PL, 348pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Maybe cut the Dominus for an Enginseer and use the points for a Techmarine with Beamer and Vitae (65 points)? With only two Crawlers, rerolling 1s isn't very efficient. You will have 22 points left over. If you cut even the Crawlers, 16 Electro-Priests? (Or cut one unit of Dragoons for 13 Electro-Priests) Haha. That would be a terrifying assault army. Infiltrate your Dragoons and Priests turn one to clear screen. Drop your Slamguinius, Lemartes, and Death Company turn two to follow up assault. Meanwhile, your deployed infantry, maybe with two Icarus Crawlers (or Basilisks, which can get reroll 1s for 30 points with Master of Ordnance) being constantly repaired, are just hogging board space.
It might be too much. But it would be cool.
EDIT: Oh, and make sure all the Death Company use Bolters and Chainswords, not Bolt Pistols. You want the versatility. Thunder Hammer obviously requires you to give up both weapons.
Yes. The traits don't technically refund you. They give you +1 CP for rolling a dice value under certain conditions.
Another consideration: If you take Electro-Priests, you can cut the Thunder Hammers from the Death Company and use them as dedicated anti-screen. (Electro-Priests can pretty much run over anything with Mortal Wounds.)
Good point with the Hammers. So I guess it would be better to cut the Onagers instead of the second Dragoon squad, right? It just feels so weird do play AdMech without an focus on shooting xD
Might not need the dominis without a pure gun line . Changing to an engineer maybe give some plasma to vang you end up full mobile army. No need to keep anything stationary. Or switch one group of vanguard's to rangers for camping back field and screen. Onagers if need. Seems valid though! I d make the Dragoons one group for the buff or make one group of 4-5 and use the points it's heavily dependant on playstyle!!
I would make a bigger dragoon unit but that's not possible because of the tournament restrictions...
Also when you drop in Lamartes + Death Company + Captain: who gets the 3d6 charge stratagem? I know it's a little dependent on the target which is in front of you, but I'm looking for a rule of thumb for my first AdMech Blood Angel games.
Also when you drop in Lamartes + Death Company + Captain: who gets the 3d6 charge stratagem? I know it's a little dependent on the target which is in front of you, but I'm looking for a rule of thumb for my first AdMech Blood Angel games.
Also regarding Electro Priest:
Do you think I could even afford them (from a CP standpoint). I have 13CP and I´m spending 4 right away which can´t be refunded (relics + black rage). So 9 CP at the start and I still need to infiltrate the Priests and Dragoons...
lash92 wrote: Laertes is also the father of Odysseus .. xD
Back to my stratagem question:
Spoiler:
Also when you drop in Lamartes + Death Company + Captain: who gets the 3d6 charge stratagem? I know it's a little dependent on the target which is in front of you, but I'm looking for a rule of thumb for my first AdMech Blood Angel games.
Also regarding Electro Priest:
Do you think I could even afford them (from a CP standpoint). I have 13CP and I´m spending 4 right away which can´t be refunded (relics + black rage). So 9 CP at the start and I still need to infiltrate the Priests and Dragoons...
Highly situational. Blood Angels are a high skill cap army because of the massive tactical flexibility. Also keep in mind that Lemartes, Slamguinius, and the DC likely will not deploy together, and may even operate separately.
Here's one scenario:
1. Place Slamguinius into reserves, deploy Lemartes and the DC 2. Forlorn Fury and move the DC. Either Advance Lemartes or use Upon Wings of Fire to deep strike him closer to the action.
3. Decide if you want to charge Lemartes or the DC first. Ideally, you don't need to charge Lemartes at all. Just let him be an aura caddy.
4. Next turn, deep strike Slamguinius. Use Upon Wings of Fire to move Lemartes closer to him, if necessary. Charge with Descent of Angels if necessary.
Depends. If you finish deploying first, you should deploy the DC and try to go for the T1 alpha. Forlorn Fury is a great skill to use for this because it essentially lets you bypass screens and murder their backline before they even have a chance to stop you.
That being said, here's a 2000 point BA+Guard+Stygies mass assault list:
So what are we gonna do with the drill. Fulgurites seem to be the only thing, since we can't really tansport anything else meaningful. And don't say OMG 10 man skitarii with 3 plasma. Just no.
lash92 wrote: The Peltasts look most interesting of all three imho.
why tho....
Which do you find more interesting then? I'm not feeling the transport, but maybe I'm just overlooking something.
Well the infantry just seems outright meh. No <forgeworld>, no silly rules, no amazing stats... What's the point? Just take rangers.
With the transport there're at least SOME posibilities. It's just a bit worse than a wave serpent defensive stats wise (but it is cheaper so its less points spent on transports). It has some OK guns for cheap.
Well, the Drill is definitely the best transport for AdMech. Lol. But seriously, it makes Red Tide viable, I guess. And it gives us a good reason to take Dominus over Cawl. (Graia and Ryza are suddenly a bit better.)
The Heavy Flamers are worthless. They cost 15x2 points extra but cannot even hit anything after the deep strike because they have 8" instead of 12" range. The Twin Volkite Chargers are really something though. 6x2 points for 15" 8x S5 AP0 D2 shots. They do take a Heavy penalty on the first turn, but bring a Dominus, and you're solid.
The melee weapon is also interesting. Good for ramming into tanks, if you can catch them with the 8" move.
Sad that it cannot burst up in the midst of a bunch of enemies. Guess I will have to settle for bursting two units of 6x Skitarii with 2x Plasma Calivers each. Or 12x Electro-Priests; though infiltration may be more efficient.
Secutarii seem meh. No shield aura any more. And no real synergy with titans, as their name may suggest.
So, when comparing Rangers to the Peltasts, it’s 70 points and troops vs 90 points and elites.
The 1 shot at 30” range is, to me, hands down better than the Rangers weapon.
Peltasts get a 5++, but Rangers get a dogma.
Peltasts can also run up the table and shoot without LoS, but, that and the rapid fire option, are probably just not worth using. Sure, in rapid fire range they put out more str 3 shots than a basic guardman squad with FRFSRF (by 3 shots), but, still cost 20 points more than that combo and aren’t troops.
A couple of squads of Hoplites jumping out of Termites might be interesting. 2 10 man squads in Termites would only set you back 348 points, and would give you some additional options.
And the skitarii will just die the turn after. It needs to be meaningful enough. Like 10 plasma guys. Not 4 plasma and 8 guys that will kill 2 models.
Not really. I supposed the matter of determining who goes first and seizes is a coin flip, but you can always not forward deploy them. (Moving then charging is almost guaranteed to succeed.)
Radium Carbines are actually really efficient weapons. Plasma Calivers just raise the per-transport damage cap. And yeah, the infantry don't usually last. But that's almost always the case with these sorts of units. They just need to bring down key threats.
Secutarii seem meh. No shield aura any more. And no real synergy with titans, as their name may suggest.
Yeah i didn't get the point of them having a "Titan Guard" special rule, that has no impact on Titans/Knights (i get that they are Titan Guards in terms of purpose, but, the rule coulda just been named something different) at all. But, i guess, it allows them to work in normal admech forces.
Secutarii seem meh. No shield aura any more. And no real synergy with titans, as their name may suggest.
Yeah i didn't get the point of them having a "Titan Guard" special rule, that has no impact on Titans/Knights (i get that they are Titan Guards in terms of purpose, but, the rule coulda just been named something different) at all. But, i guess, it allows them to work in normal admech forces.
Yup. Even something as simple as a movement bonus while within 6" of a titan would be great. (These guys aren't keeping up with any Knights.)
And the skitarii will just die the turn after. It needs to be meaningful enough. Like 10 plasma guys. Not 4 plasma and 8 guys that will kill 2 models.
Not really. I supposed the matter of determining who goes first and seizes is a coin flip, but you can always not forward deploy them. (Moving then charging is almost guaranteed to succeed.)
Radium Carbines are actually really efficient weapons. Plasma Calivers just raise the per-transport damage cap. And yeah, the infantry don't usually last. But that's almost always the case with these sorts of units. They just need to bring down key threats.
Why not just deepstrike them at that point. You're not protecting them anyway. They'll just jump out and die
And the skitarii will just die the turn after. It needs to be meaningful enough. Like 10 plasma guys. Not 4 plasma and 8 guys that will kill 2 models.
Not really. I supposed the matter of determining who goes first and seizes is a coin flip, but you can always not forward deploy them. (Moving then charging is almost guaranteed to succeed.)
Radium Carbines are actually really efficient weapons. Plasma Calivers just raise the per-transport damage cap. And yeah, the infantry don't usually last. But that's almost always the case with these sorts of units. They just need to bring down key threats.
Why not just deepstrike them at that point. You're not protecting them anyway. They'll just jump out and die
As I said before, you can take Graia or Ryza to do it. Doesn't have to be Lucius or Stygies anymore.
What if you want to run Red Tide? Drop 60 Graia Vanguard in 6 Drills ontop of the enemy and just grind them to death? Literally. Bring a Graia Warlord with Raiment and dare people to charge you.
Suzuteo wrote: What if you want to run Red Tide? Drop 60 Graia Vanguard in 6 Drills ontop of the enemy and just grind them to death? Literally. Bring a Graia Warlord with Raiment and dare people to charge you.
This tactic is so compeling I really want to try it. However it has one big flaw: GBP75 for one drill model
Suzuteo wrote: What if you want to run Red Tide? Drop 60 Graia Vanguard in 6 Drills ontop of the enemy and just grind them to death? Literally. Bring a Graia Warlord with Raiment and dare people to charge you.
This tactic is so compeling I really want to try it. However it has one big flaw: GBP75 for one drill model
Be interesting to pop up a sqaud of peltasts out of LOS and fire their ignis blaze rounds with relative safety. They still benefit from both conqueror and protector stratagems thankfully.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aquisition at all costs becomes more useful for them as well
Suzuteo wrote: What if you want to run Red Tide? Drop 60 Graia Vanguard in 6 Drills ontop of the enemy and just grind them to death? Literally. Bring a Graia Warlord with Raiment and dare people to charge you.
This tactic is so compeling I really want to try it. However it has one big flaw: GBP75 for one drill model
Technicaly I could, most probably I would. It's just those Mantic drills are... ugly. AF.
I guess I will concept my own and hunt down some good conversion parts.
Suzuteo wrote: What if you want to run Red Tide? Drop 60 Graia Vanguard in 6 Drills ontop of the enemy and just grind them to death? Literally. Bring a Graia Warlord with Raiment and dare people to charge you.
Or you could save your points and money on the Drills and bring 100 extra Vanguard, so you got a real tide ;-)
Suzuteo wrote: What if you want to run Red Tide? Drop 60 Graia Vanguard in 6 Drills ontop of the enemy and just grind them to death? Literally. Bring a Graia Warlord with Raiment and dare people to charge you.
This tactic is so compeling I really want to try it. However it has one big flaw: GBP75 for one drill model
Technicaly I could, most probably I would. It's just those Mantic drills are... ugly. AF.
I guess I will concept my own and hunt down some good conversion parts.
Haha they really are fugly that’s true. Some good conversion possibilities no doubt if your scour the net
The hoplites are BS3+ WS3+ 2Attacks 4+ armor 5++ and mag inverter rules with a S6 shooting or melee attack that does d3 damage to vehicles with -1 AP.
10 of them would average 2d3 wounds on any 3+ save vehicle. Not amazing sounding but consider that's only 90 pts.
Two units if those guys coming up in 2 termite drills shooting then assaulting will kill any 18 wound knight with average shooting plus one of the four units making it into assault and doing average in 1 round. For about 450pts.
Even though they might be a little meh I like that I can run my Peltasts, I have 20 of the them and now that the invun is not tied to the number of models I can run them as two 10 man units or a 15 man unit
Sit them on objectives and fire off that -2 ap shot or the no LOS one if I have them behind a wall, they look great so I'm glad I can run them again and their not that expensive either I guess.
Does anyone thinks the drill is going to improve our ruststalkers?
Probably not but 11 in a transport with the dominus and a relic for rerolls could give some nasty mortal wounds.
No?
Suzuteo wrote: What if you want to run Red Tide? Drop 60 Graia Vanguard in 6 Drills ontop of the enemy and just grind them to death? Literally. Bring a Graia Warlord with Raiment and dare people to charge you.
Or you could save your points and money on the Drills and bring 100 extra Vanguard, so you got a real tide ;-)
You can reenact Gettysburg every game!
So a full setup is 955 points:
Spoiler:
Graia Battalion Detachment - 955
HQ - 172 1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Warlord: Emotionless Clarity, Relic: Raiment of the Technomartyr
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Does anyone thinks the drill is going to improve our ruststalkers?
Probably not but 11 in a transport with the dominus and a relic for rerolls could give some nasty mortal wounds.
No?
The problem with Ruststalkers is their stat line. So no.
lash92 wrote: Add an Stygies Batallion with Dragoons and Priest and you are good to go imo xD
Infiltrated units still do count towards the 50% non deepstrike right?
They do not. Stratagem says "instead of placing them on the battlefield."
The Termite Drill seems pretty good but with the deep striking beta rules, it can only come in turn 2 on your opponent's side and then your units in the drill have to wait till turn 3 to get out. Lots of wasted time when you could've infiltrated turn 1. Granted it depends on whether you or your opponent decide to play with beta rules but either way I'm hoping GW does some serious revision with their deep strike beta rule because it's gonna screw over a lot of units, especially deep striking transports and melee units, who have a tough enough time trying to make the 9" charge already.
lash92 wrote: Add an Stygies Batallion with Dragoons and Priest and you are good to go imo xD
Infiltrated units still do count towards the 50% non deepstrike right?
They do not. Stratagem says "instead of placing them on the battlefield."
Anyhow, I want to try a Knight list first.
Those ramshackle drills will not be useful for conversion. They're a solid hunk of resin.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: The Termite Drill seems pretty good but with the deep striking beta rules, it can only come in turn 2 on your opponent's side and then your units in the drill have to wait till turn 3 to get out. Lots of wasted time when you could've infiltrated turn 1. Granted it depends on whether you or your opponent decide to play with beta rules but either way I'm hoping GW does some serious revision with their deep strike beta rule because it's gonna screw over a lot of units, especially deep striking transports and melee units, who have a tough enough time trying to make the 9" charge already.
Why do they need to wait until turn 3? Rule says that when the drill pops up, everyone inside can immediately come out
Mr. Funktastic wrote: The Termite Drill seems pretty good but with the deep striking beta rules, it can only come in turn 2 on your opponent's side and then your units in the drill have to wait till turn 3 to get out. Lots of wasted time when you could've infiltrated turn 1. Granted it depends on whether you or your opponent decide to play with beta rules but either way I'm hoping GW does some serious revision with their deep strike beta rule because it's gonna screw over a lot of units, especially deep striking transports and melee units, who have a tough enough time trying to make the 9" charge already.
It's fine, sorta, they just need exceptions beyond GSC. The obvious one: drop pods, or GK, give BA a stratagem for JP troops, something for tau, a dash here for swooping hawks. Etc. Etc...
Mr. Funktastic wrote: The Termite Drill seems pretty good but with the deep striking beta rules, it can only come in turn 2 on your opponent's side and then your units in the drill have to wait till turn 3 to get out. Lots of wasted time when you could've infiltrated turn 1. Granted it depends on whether you or your opponent decide to play with beta rules but either way I'm hoping GW does some serious revision with their deep strike beta rule because it's gonna screw over a lot of units, especially deep striking transports and melee units, who have a tough enough time trying to make the 9" charge already.
Why do they need to wait until turn 3? Rule says that when the drill pops up, everyone inside can immediately come out
I missed the part that says they can immediately disembark, I guess it works pretty much like the Trygon then, in which case they don't get the free 3" + movement from disembarking so really this is more of a deep strike alternative than a traditional transport. I guess if you didn't want to roll Graia (or whichever FW has the deep strike strat) then this looks like a solid option to get your guys where they need to be.
And the skitarii will just die the turn after. It needs to be meaningful enough. Like 10 plasma guys. Not 4 plasma and 8 guys that will kill 2 models.
Rvd man, you literally think everything is bad. Haha you make me laugh buddy. An uninventive mind or an overly pessimistic mind leads to fruitless and ultimately unproductive discussions, please, just stop.
I like a balanced discussion, the Drill gives some interesting potential and changes things up for AdMech for the better, that is undeniable. I will be interested to test it out for myself before passing judgement, I for one am excited to try it out.
I think peltasts remain the best things to take. If you are going to run secutarii, I think the right way is in a 20 stack of peltasts with an omnispex. The synergy combo that might work could be:
20 stack of peltasts Omnispex +1 to hit strategem Reroll 6s canticle
That gives you some pretty efficient anti troop shooting. And the peltasts are good targets for the HOLD AT ANY COSTS strategem for +1 save. That they don't have a FORGEWORLD is a serious cokblok and feels bad man.
But the drill. The drill should be run as a suicide onager for STYGIES. Put some dudes inside, give it flamers, infiltrate it, and launch it into the enemy. The deep strike rules have rendered the subtereean assault terrible. But an infiltrated drill is surprisingly nasty in combat ande is a good candidate for the blow up strategem. As a bonus, it can shield your infiltrated infantry from a turn of fire. For 134 points you get 4 bolter barrels and a D3 meltagun. This is worse than an onager, but the drill can fight big targets.
EDIT: the anti-synergy cokbloks are so maddening. Drill -- no canticles but yes FORGEWORLD Secutarii - yes canticles but no FORGEWORLD
EDIT2: I like staff priests in drills. If you don't get first turn, now your opponent has T8 targets. And the drill disembark actually buys the staff priests another 3" movement.
EDIT3: forgeworld transport rules are terse, and full of holes. The drill says 12 MODELS without any kind of unit restriction. This means you can run 2x5 STYGIES rangers squads and a TPD in there. This lets you put the plasma in range on turn 1 and protect them from a round of fire. Consider the following detachments.
STYGIES TPD + Enginseer 3x5 rangers with 2x plasma each, 1x with omni, 1x with tether
STYGIES 2x enginseer 3x5 rangers with 2x plasma each, 1x with tether 3x drills with flamers
[1138 points]
You can put both of those detachments into the 3 drills and infiltrate all 3 of them for only 3CP after your opponent deploys. I am not sure how to equip the drills. 2x stormbolters is a nice, cheap source of bolter fire. 2x heavy flamers is very pointy, but damn that is a lot of flamers that are nicely in position to hit. This rapidly bumps up against the 50% powerlevel and 50% of drops need to be on the table rule.
@Wulfey
Heavy Flamers are bad. They cost 17 points and cannot shoot the turn they deep strike because they have 8" instead of 12".
Your best bet is Storm Bolters if you are Graia; Warlord trait lets them shoot into fighting units, which means if you wipe the enemy during a shooting phase, you can charge again. Otherwise, Volkite.
After more consideration, I don't like Fulgurites in these transports. Too risky when you can just dump Plasma Vanguard on people.
bogalubov wrote: Those ramshackle drills will not be useful for conversion. They're a solid hunk of resin.
Good. Solid resin tends to be very consistent. Take a drill, turn it down to the lowest torque, and hollow it out for weight (drill a drill... haha). Slap it on a base. Paint it. Viola.
Ideasweasel wrote: I want to run electro priests in squads of 20. Surely the other 8 can sit on each other’s laps?
Nope. Embark rules state the entire unit has to embark.
I think infiltrating the drill might be the way to go if you want to put Electropriests in them and would be the only time I'd ever consider Heavy Flamers. Infiltrate >12" away to get the -1 from Stygies, disembark the priests and move for a total of 9" of movement and get an easy 3" charge, then move the drill up to flamer/rapid fire + charge range.
If you want to go all in on ranged fire for its cargo then deep striking could work as well.
These new units are a real mixed bag. I really don't see why they're prevented from just straight up getting canticles and <Forgeworld> keywords, they're clearly admech units and designs, and I'm not seeing anything at first glace that makes them crazy OP, especially since the Secutarii are elite choices. The one thing that's kind of nuts is perhaps shroudpsalm on the drills, since you'd have potentially a horde of T8 vehicles with a 2+ save, but without invulns I don't really see why this is the dealbreaker when we can bring onagers or kastellan robots that can get 2+ saves as well.
The drill especially looks fun, it's always cool to see a transport that can chip in with assault, and at T8 with 10 wounds its very tough, its basically a leman russ battle tank that can deepstrike and assault things with 12 models riding along while giving up most of its shooting ability. The only real downside is the bloody thing costs something like $70 from FW, which is a shame because I want like 6 of them I almost wonder if you even need to burrow the thing at all, these are cheap enough to spam to a degree and they have enough guns and CQC ability that they can realistically fight on their own as well. In particular I think it'd be fun to see an admech battalion running these with plasma vanguard and the priests teamed up with something like an Imperial guard Leman russ company. You'd have a stupid amount of T8 +3 wounds to chew through that just grind up the board or can potentially pop up in the opponent's backfield. Bring some guardsmen to babysit the leman russes and you'd have for a very interesting army. No idea how well it would work, but it'd be quite a curveball. I feel if you're deepstriking them you keep them cheap with stormbolters, which also lets them help clean up screens a bit for whatever is inside to do it's job. If you grind them up the table, either keep them cheap with stormbolters, or double down with heavy flamers and do whatever it takes to get in your opponent's grill turn one. From just a quick bit of napkin math, it's fairly easy to get 8-10 hulls as a mix of drills and russes along with infantry to guard the russes and ride in the drills depending on how you want to do it with a twin battalion list.
A more serious use for them is pure admech though, using them as bunkers for Stygies infiltrators is good, but it also gives other forgeworlds ways to get their infantry up into the opponent's lines too. For example I run Metalica and this at least gives me a way to get my infantry up the table that doesnt just involve walking, which is very handy for things like linebreaker, table quarters, or taking midfield objectives. It really solves two issues at once, in the fact that not only did we get a transport, but a way to get a deepstrike style of ability that isn't tied to a specific forgeworld. And on top of that, it's a cheap, spammable brick that's not bound by the rule of 3, and can do a bit of shooting and a bit of close combat.
Now if I can just find a way to get some without breaking the bank, I'll be in business.
My gaming group is all in on the flamers over the stormbolters. You will never deep strike these things. The drills are strictly for adding wounds to infiltrating STYGIES bombs. The drills with flamers are 154 points for D3 melta shots and 2 heavy flamers. They have 8" base movement. If you infiltrate them with a package of troops inside, they are guaranteed to be in heavy flamer range on turn 1 whether you go first or second, and the overwatch is kinda nice if you go second. The drills with flamers also threaten fliers in a way that staff priests can never do, so they bring something to the table that makes staff priests even better. The drills are 10 T8 wounds with a -1 STYGIES to be hit bonus for 150 points, that is well worth losing some priests. Too bad they are 75 pounds. They even give staff priests another 3" of movement to make that first turn charge even easier. The guys running the hardcore staff priests builds will be running these guys as STYGIES and putting them right in their opponents faces every game.
30coins wrote: could 2pries/3vang/2drill battalion be added to knights as efficient CP farm?
I wouldn't call it efficient, but I guess it gives you a way to make those small mandatory squads for the battalion useful by being able to get them across the map to objectives while your knights kill things. Keep in mind those 2 drills are more than doubling the cost of that support battalion, that's enough points to potentially remove an entire knight from your army.
Wulfey wrote: My gaming group is all in on the flamers over the stormbolters. You will never deep strike these things. The drills are strictly for adding wounds to infiltrating STYGIES bombs. The drills with flamers are 154 points for D3 melta shots and 2 heavy flamers. They have 8" base movement. If you infiltrate them with a package of troops inside, they are guaranteed to be in heavy flamer range on turn 1 whether you go first or second, and the overwatch is kinda nice if you go second. The drills with flamers also threaten fliers in a way that staff priests can never do, so they bring something to the table that makes staff priests even better. The drills are 10 T8 wounds with a -1 STYGIES to be hit bonus for 150 points, that is well worth losing some priests. Too bad they are 75 pounds. They even give staff priests another 3" of movement to make that first turn charge even easier. The guys running the hardcore staff priests builds will be running these guys as STYGIES and putting them right in their opponents faces every game.
2 questions.
1. One drill per army at 2k is the sensible amount?
2. Is a squad of just 12 electropriests that good?? Assuming the drill did it’s job and let’s you get into combat does that balance the losing 8 priests??
Wulfey wrote: My gaming group is all in on the flamers over the stormbolters. You will never deep strike these things. The drills are strictly for adding wounds to infiltrating STYGIES bombs. The drills with flamers are 154 points for D3 melta shots and 2 heavy flamers. They have 8" base movement. If you infiltrate them with a package of troops inside, they are guaranteed to be in heavy flamer range on turn 1 whether you go first or second, and the overwatch is kinda nice if you go second. The drills with flamers also threaten fliers in a way that staff priests can never do, so they bring something to the table that makes staff priests even better. The drills are 10 T8 wounds with a -1 STYGIES to be hit bonus for 150 points, that is well worth losing some priests. Too bad they are 75 pounds. They even give staff priests another 3" of movement to make that first turn charge even easier. The guys running the hardcore staff priests builds will be running these guys as STYGIES and putting them right in their opponents faces every game.
2 questions.
1. One drill per army at 2k is the sensible amount? 2. Is a squad of just 12 electropriests that good?? Assuming the drill did it’s job and let’s you get into combat does that balance the losing 8 priests??
The choice is between:
(1) 20 priests (2) 12 priests + Drill
These are both very similar in points. If you always went first, the 20 priests should do more damage and be more reliable than the 12+D. But if you are the kind of guy who blows 3 going first rolls in a row somehow even with the +1 and also cant seize the initiative, then the drill starts to make more sense. If you end up second with 20 priests, you face a hard choice of where to put the priests. Put them 9" away and now they are 100% in range of all enemy firepower and will be charged. Put them 15" away and they might not make their charge on your turn. Priests have a good 5++/5fnp, but they are T3. So everything your opponent has that shoots is viable against them.
If you take the 12+D, now you don't even have to think. Just put the drill 9" away every damned time. Or put it somewhere a little sneakier if it fits behind terrain. Your opponent now has to shoot a T8 lump of metal. Yeah, if he has mass meltas, this is a little worse than 8 priests. But against bolters? Yeah, give me the drill. The drill even gets the -1 to be hit like the priests. And if your opponent charges the drill? Fine. Let him. twin flamers get another turn of shooting. I would put the drills end to end in a line to make wrapping around them harder. And the disembark gets another 3" on your charge. Also, the drill itself has 6 attacks at str14,-4, flat3 and has some mortal wound shenanigans against tough targets. And it has a D3 melta gun! What a joke. That stupid thing shoots as hard as an armiger but manages to fight better. If the drill dies, then it died tougher than 8 priests against anything less than str8. If it lives, then it eats the overwatch for your priests and does a little flaming on the way in.
And the skitarii will just die the turn after. It needs to be meaningful enough. Like 10 plasma guys. Not 4 plasma and 8 guys that will kill 2 models.
Rvd man, you literally think everything is bad. Haha you make me laugh buddy. An uninventive mind or an overly pessimistic mind leads to fruitless and ultimately unproductive discussions, please, just stop.
I like a balanced discussion, the Drill gives some interesting potential and changes things up for AdMech for the better, that is undeniable. I will be interested to test it out for myself before passing judgement, I for one am excited to try it out.
How about you start thinking instead of going "durr everything is awesome". Bet you're one of those gullible sheep who thought armigers were not complete trash garbage on release.
Every unit is trash unless proven otherwise. This game isn't some magical land where you have to test every unit to see if it is good. Fire up mathammer, compare to other similar units, weigh in pros and cons, find similar units making top tables and compare. If they're straight up worse - they are useless trash.
Here, I think the elites are meh. They don't break the game. And if they don't - I don't care. AdMech need something stupid powerful to drag them out of the hole of mediocrity(at best).
The drill... maybe? Definitelly some potential.
And if you don't understand what trasnports are used for:
Open topped - shove in glass cannon short range units(corpuscarii, tankbustas, etc)
Other - melee guys that are slow and fragile(berzerkers, fulgurites)
I honestly don't see how anything other than fulgurites can be taken (for now)
Ps: I haven't evaluated the melee weapon change yet
My buddy who spends unlimited cash on unpainted models wants to run something like this at the monthly ITC tournaments:
STYGIES - enginseer, 3x12 staff priests, 3x1 termites with flamers BLANGELS - slamcaptain, meph, 3x scouts, some jumppack guys or another slamcaptin with VITAE VALHALLA - 2x commanders, 3x guards, 3x mortar teams
This is full up competitive in ITC. This out and out ends games on turn 1 if it gets first turn. Forlorn fury, 3 termites, and 3 packs of staffpriests is a devastating alpha strike. As a bonus, it isn't even hard to tweak this to get the GRAND_STRAT + VERITAS_VITAE cheese going to keep those infiltrations cheap. If it gets second, your opponent gets to unload into the termites. Between infiltration and forlorn fury, you have options to resist the damage from going second.
A question for a our melee experts: If you had to decide between Blood Angels detachment or a big priest bomb (2 x 20) what would you take? I guess BA?
Would a better tactic be to use the drill as intended deep striking it in, or running it as a Stygis drill, infiltrating it full of whatever for 1 cp and taking a chance on going first?
And the skitarii will just die the turn after. It needs to be meaningful enough. Like 10 plasma guys. Not 4 plasma and 8 guys that will kill 2 models.
Rvd man, you literally think everything is bad. Haha you make me laugh buddy. An uninventive mind or an overly pessimistic mind leads to fruitless and ultimately unproductive discussions, please, just stop.
I like a balanced discussion, the Drill gives some interesting potential and changes things up for AdMech for the better, that is undeniable. I will be interested to test it out for myself before passing judgement, I for one am excited to try it out.
How about you start thinking instead of going "durr everything is awesome". Bet you're one of those gullible sheep who thought armigers were not complete trash garbage on release.
Every unit is trash unless proven otherwise. This game isn't some magical land where you have to test every unit to see if it is good. Fire up mathammer, compare to other similar units, weigh in pros and cons, find similar units making top tables and compare. If they're straight up worse - they are useless trash.
Here, I think the elites are meh. They don't break the game. And if they don't - I don't care. AdMech need something stupid powerful to drag them out of the hole of mediocrity(at best).
The drill... maybe? Definitelly some potential.
And if you don't understand what trasnports are used for:
Open topped - shove in glass cannon short range units(corpuscarii, tankbustas, etc)
Other - melee guys that are slow and fragile(berzerkers, fulgurites)
I honestly don't see how anything other than fulgurites can be taken (for now)
Ps: I haven't evaluated the melee weapon change yet
You're a Mathhammer warrior, friend. Not someone who actually plays the game much. Vacuums are nowhere to get a solid grasp of how a unit performs, sorry to say.
I don't listen to your opinions anyway because of your sole reliance on Mathhamer to discount anyone else's argument is, to put it simply, silly. I just felt the need to point it out, glad I did so as well.
Mathhammer says Kastelan Robots with Cawl should be topping tournaments, but on the field they are good but have a niche role, easily outmaneuvered, static, predictable.
And the skitarii will just die the turn after. It needs to be meaningful enough. Like 10 plasma guys. Not 4 plasma and 8 guys that will kill 2 models.
Rvd man, you literally think everything is bad. Haha you make me laugh buddy. An uninventive mind or an overly pessimistic mind leads to fruitless and ultimately unproductive discussions, please, just stop.
I like a balanced discussion, the Drill gives some interesting potential and changes things up for AdMech for the better, that is undeniable. I will be interested to test it out for myself before passing judgement, I for one am excited to try it out.
How about you start thinking instead of going "durr everything is awesome". Bet you're one of those gullible sheep who thought armigers were not complete trash garbage on release.
Every unit is trash unless proven otherwise. This game isn't some magical land where you have to test every unit to see if it is good. Fire up mathammer, compare to other similar units, weigh in pros and cons, find similar units making top tables and compare. If they're straight up worse - they are useless trash.
Here, I think the elites are meh. They don't break the game. And if they don't - I don't care. AdMech need something stupid powerful to drag them out of the hole of mediocrity(at best).
The drill... maybe? Definitelly some potential.
And if you don't understand what trasnports are used for:
Open topped - shove in glass cannon short range units(corpuscarii, tankbustas, etc)
Other - melee guys that are slow and fragile(berzerkers, fulgurites)
I honestly don't see how anything other than fulgurites can be taken (for now)
Ps: I haven't evaluated the melee weapon change yet
You're a Mathhammer warrior, friend. Not someone who actually plays the game much. Vacuums are nowhere to get a solid grasp of how a unit performs, sorry to say.
I don't listen to your opinions anyway because of your sole reliance on Mathhamer to discount anyone else's argument is, to put it simply, silly. I just felt the need to point it out, glad I did so as well.
Mathhammer says Kastelan Robots with Cawl should be topping tournaments, but on the field they are good but have a niche role, easily outmaneuvered, static, predictable.
And yet it's the list that tops the most. Not much else makes it to the top for AdMech.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote: My buddy who spends unlimited cash on unpainted models wants to run something like this at the monthly ITC tournaments:
STYGIES - enginseer, 3x12 staff priests, 3x1 termites with flamers
BLANGELS - slamcaptain, meph, 3x scouts, some jumppack guys or another slamcaptin with VITAE
VALHALLA - 2x commanders, 3x guards, 3x mortar teams
This is full up competitive in ITC. This out and out ends games on turn 1 if it gets first turn. Forlorn fury, 3 termites, and 3 packs of staffpriests is a devastating alpha strike. As a bonus, it isn't even hard to tweak this to get the GRAND_STRAT + VERITAS_VITAE cheese going to keep those infiltrations cheap. If it gets second, your opponent gets to unload into the termites. Between infiltration and forlorn fury, you have options to resist the damage from going second.
Heavy Flamers are awful for the price. Say no to those.
And yet it's the list that tops the most. Not much else makes it to the top for AdMech.
You can't say that without a source, it's absolute garbage and I will call you out on it. I'll give a CONCRETE counter example, at the London GT there were two AdMech lists in the top 10% one made use of Stygies Fulgurites and the other made use of Stygies Dragoon/Ironstrider spam. The article was written by Nick Nanivanti a well connected tournament player.
This particular AdMech forum is behind the times and stuck in a perpetual state of "everything sucks but Cawl and Kastelan."
Also to put that number into perspective that is top 45 out of 450 participants.
Wulfey wrote: My gaming group is all in on the flamers over the stormbolters. You will never deep strike these things. The drills are strictly for adding wounds to infiltrating STYGIES bombs. The drills with flamers are 154 points for D3 melta shots and 2 heavy flamers. They have 8" base movement. If you infiltrate them with a package of troops inside, they are guaranteed to be in heavy flamer range on turn 1 whether you go first or second, and the overwatch is kinda nice if you go second. The drills with flamers also threaten fliers in a way that staff priests can never do, so they bring something to the table that makes staff priests even better. The drills are 10 T8 wounds with a -1 STYGIES to be hit bonus for 150 points, that is well worth losing some priests. Too bad they are 75 pounds. They even give staff priests another 3" of movement to make that first turn charge even easier. The guys running the hardcore staff priests builds will be running these guys as STYGIES and putting them right in their opponents faces every game.
1) Are you sure you are allowed to do that? The Stygies VIII stratagem does not say that you can infiltrate with units embarked inside. It may seem implicit, but every deployment rule that allows for it explicitly states it.
Example:
Furthermore, all of the deep strike rules on transports also states it explicitly, including the Drill. It does not seem to be a generally applicable rule. We should definitely request an FAQ on this.
2) You would have to disembark before the transport moves. So your Fulgurites won't be fighting the turn they infiltrate, thus contradicting the point of infiltration.
3) The Drill does not have amazing shooting, so the opportunity cost of protecting your Fulgurites for one turn is immense.
4) Even if you infiltrate them, Heavy Flamers are still overpriced for what they bring to the table. You are investing 1 CP and 30 additional points in each.
And yet it's the list that tops the most. Not much else makes it to the top for AdMech.
You can't say that without a source, it's absolute garbage and I will call you out on it. I'll give a CONCRETE counter example, at the London GT there were two AdMech lists in the top 10% one made use of Stygies Fulgurites and the other made use of Stygies Dragoon/Ironstrider spam. The article was written by Nick Nanivanti a well connected tournament player.
This particular AdMech forum is behind the times and stuck in a perpetual state of "everything sucks but Cawl and Kastelan."
Also to put that number into perspective that is top 45 out of 450 participants.
It happening once doesn't help prove your point at all. Otherwise Rubric Marines were awesome in 6th and 7th. They really werent.
Now I WILL say there was potential for more lists to do okay, but I'm not so sure with the current power creep.
You're a Mathhammer warrior, friend. Not someone who actually plays the game much. Vacuums are nowhere to get a solid grasp of how a unit performs, sorry to say.
I don't listen to your opinions anyway because of your sole reliance on Mathhamer to discount anyone else's argument is, to put it simply, silly. I just felt the need to point it out, glad I did so as well.
Mathhammer says Kastelan Robots with Cawl should be topping tournaments, but on the field they are good but have a niche role, easily outmaneuvered, static, predictable.
I love how you see 1 part of my post and start typing. If you think mathammer is useless - you do not have the correct mindset for the game. Mathammer for me is a secondary tool. Tournament results are the most important thing. When a new unit comes out - I compare them to similar units.
People who say mathammer is useless don't understand how to use it. "Oh it's best damage and durability per point! I'll win every game! *in game sees that the thing can't move and has 6'' range* WTF MATHAMMER SUCKS!". You have to take everything into account. "So this guy is very bellow average offensivelly, but he has great durability. What else? Deepstrike as a single model(hard to deny), psychic denial, single model. Maybe not bad? Oh, topping tournaments as well? Great then" (Cullexus)
If I'm getting this correctly, hoplites can get a 3+ invun save in combat with the Acquisition at any costs? Would this or stygies fulgurites that have killed a unit that was already near an objective for a 2++ 5+++ be better, especially since the fulgurite blob now has 60 attacks.
Wulfey wrote: My gaming group is all in on the flamers over the stormbolters. You will never deep strike these things. The drills are strictly for adding wounds to infiltrating STYGIES bombs. The drills with flamers are 154 points for D3 melta shots and 2 heavy flamers. They have 8" base movement. If you infiltrate them with a package of troops inside, they are guaranteed to be in heavy flamer range on turn 1 whether you go first or second, and the overwatch is kinda nice if you go second. The drills with flamers also threaten fliers in a way that staff priests can never do, so they bring something to the table that makes staff priests even better. The drills are 10 T8 wounds with a -1 STYGIES to be hit bonus for 150 points, that is well worth losing some priests. Too bad they are 75 pounds. They even give staff priests another 3" of movement to make that first turn charge even easier. The guys running the hardcore staff priests builds will be running these guys as STYGIES and putting them right in their opponents faces every game.
2 questions.
1. One drill per army at 2k is the sensible amount?
2. Is a squad of just 12 electropriests that good?? Assuming the drill did it’s job and let’s you get into combat does that balance the losing 8 priests??
The choice is between:
(1) 20 priests
(2) 12 priests + Drill
These are both very similar in points. If you always went first, the 20 priests should do more damage and be more reliable than the 12+D. But if you are the kind of guy who blows 3 going first rolls in a row somehow even with the +1 and also cant seize the initiative, then the drill starts to make more sense. If you end up second with 20 priests, you face a hard choice of where to put the priests. Put them 9" away and now they are 100% in range of all enemy firepower and will be charged. Put them 15" away and they might not make their charge on your turn. Priests have a good 5++/5fnp, but they are T3. So everything your opponent has that shoots is viable against them.
If you take the 12+D, now you don't even have to think. Just put the drill 9" away every damned time. Or put it somewhere a little sneakier if it fits behind terrain. Your opponent now has to shoot a T8 lump of metal. Yeah, if he has mass meltas, this is a little worse than 8 priests. But against bolters? Yeah, give me the drill. The drill even gets the -1 to be hit like the priests. And if your opponent charges the drill? Fine. Let him. twin flamers get another turn of shooting. I would put the drills end to end in a line to make wrapping around them harder. And the disembark gets another 3" on your charge. Also, the drill itself has 6 attacks at str14,-4, flat3 and has some mortal wound shenanigans against tough targets. And it has a D3 melta gun! What a joke. That stupid thing shoots as hard as an armiger but manages to fight better. If the drill dies, then it died tougher than 8 priests against anything less than str8. If it lives, then it eats the overwatch for your priests and does a little flaming on the way in.
Yeah I suppose the durability exchange makes sense. Plus the chance to have a transport is very tempting
kastelen wrote: If I'm getting this correctly, hoplites can get a 3+ invun save in combat with the Acquisition at any costs? Would this or stygies fulgurites that have killed a unit that was already near an objective for a 2++ 5+++ be better, especially since the fulgurite blob now has 60 attacks.
It takes 135 bolter shots to delete 20 Hoplites with Shroudpsalm + Aquisition at Any Cost.
20 Hoplites costs 180 points.
Hoplites could get rerolls from an Enginseer with Omniscient Mask and/or +2 to hit from Conquerer Doctrina Imperative.
It takes 180 bolter shots to delete 20 Fulgurites with Stygies dogma + Siphoned Vigour + Aquisition at Any Cost.
20 Fulgurites costs 320 points.
Fulgurites can fight twice with Zealous Congregation.
Hoplites are more efficient, points-wise and can dish out some mortal wounds (especially if you can get the 2+Sv), meanwhile Fulgurites are more durable if you can set them up, they hand mortal wounds out like candy, and have far more potential damage if you invest the CP.
Wulfey wrote: My gaming group is all in on the flamers over the stormbolters. You will never deep strike these things. The drills are strictly for adding wounds to infiltrating STYGIES bombs. The drills with flamers are 154 points for D3 melta shots and 2 heavy flamers. They have 8" base movement. If you infiltrate them with a package of troops inside, they are guaranteed to be in heavy flamer range on turn 1 whether you go first or second, and the overwatch is kinda nice if you go second. The drills with flamers also threaten fliers in a way that staff priests can never do, so they bring something to the table that makes staff priests even better. The drills are 10 T8 wounds with a -1 STYGIES to be hit bonus for 150 points, that is well worth losing some priests. Too bad they are 75 pounds. They even give staff priests another 3" of movement to make that first turn charge even easier. The guys running the hardcore staff priests builds will be running these guys as STYGIES and putting them right in their opponents faces every game.
1) Are you sure you are allowed to do that? The Stygies VIII stratagem does not say that you can infiltrate with units embarked inside. It may seem implicit, but every deployment rule that allows for it explicitly states it.
Example:
Furthermore, all of the deep strike rules on transports also states it explicitly, including the Drill. It does not seem to be a generally applicable rule. We should definitely request an FAQ on this.
2) You would have to disembark before the transport moves. So your Fulgurites won't be fighting the turn they infiltrate, thus contradicting the point of infiltration.
3) The Drill does not have amazing shooting, so the opportunity cost of protecting your Fulgurites for one turn is immense.
4) Even if you infiltrate them, Heavy Flamers are still overpriced for what they bring to the table. You are investing 1 CP and 30 additional points in each.
Going back to this, Stygies infiltration isn't exactly a deep strike, the unit arrives at the start of the battle round but before the first turn begins like Raven Guard's Strike from the Shadows. As far as I know those only apply to infantry while Stygies infiltration applies to any Ad Mech unit so we have no precedent for the same rule applying to transports but RAW infiltrating the drill should be kosher. Some kind of FAQ to clear it up may be in order either way.
I will admit that it is a gray area. However, just looking at Screaming Jets suggests that RAI is that when you use this sort of stratagem on a transport, the embarked units do not remain inside unless it says so.
U02dah4 wrote: Stygies strategem works on any stygies unit its legal
You can use the infiltration stratagem on the Drill. My point is that I don't think the embarked unit also gets to be infiltrated. Other stratagems and rules say when you can keep them embarked.
Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
Suzuteo wrote: Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
I think it's more from lack of overlap between the two companies
Suzuteo wrote: Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
Infiltration is delayed deployment, not deep strike. If your grey area stands then it would also stand when deploying a transport with units inside.
Can you fine tech priests critique this idea I came up with. Its 1750 points for an official warhammer tournament setting. Do you guys think this would be fun and reasonably effective?
Alpha melee strike and some ranged daka in the back. Any thoughts?
Can you fine tech priests critique this idea I came up with. Its 1750 points for an official warhammer tournament setting. Do you guys think this would be fun and reasonably effective?
Alpha melee strike and some ranged daka in the back. Any thoughts?
I think it'll be fun and reasonably effective. Big hordes might be a problem. As will ruins in general and your dearth of obsec but it could certainly work. Stygies might not be the best forgeworld here though, I'll throw a shout out to my own, Graia, for still fairly durable troops but a sort of deny the witch, something that could come in handy.
Also, 1743 points? Chuck another ranger on there!
EDIT: I'm tired, ignore the graia thing haha. Obviously you don't want that here with the priests and dragoons!
Suzuteo wrote: Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
However, the Tallarn Ambush stratagem for Astra Militarum, does not have any unit type restrictions, other than it can't be used on more than 1 unit of vehicles. I believe it was previously decided/ruled, that if you Ambushed a Chimera, any unit that was embarked inside it would also remain in the transport for the purpose of "outflanking".
The excemption could just be a clarification. Speculateing on GW's intention is subjective so you go with the RAW untill they FAQ and so it is permitted.
Suzuteo wrote: Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
However, the Tallarn Ambush stratagem for Astra Militarum, does not have any unit type restrictions, other than it can't be used on more than 1 unit of vehicles. I believe it was previously decided/ruled, that if you Ambushed a Chimera, any unit that was embarked inside it would also remain in the transport for the purpose of "outflanking".
I totally forgot that Ambush didn't only affect Russes. Anyhow, I looked up the FAQ, and it doesn't say anything other than amending the Ambush rule to have max one vehicle.
Anyhow, doing some research, the Guard community has two minds about this.
1) Chimera and 2 Heavy Weapons = 3 units
2) Chimera and 2 Heavy Weapons = 1 unit
#1 seems to be the accepted answer. Why? First, because the transport rule specifies that they can be embarked INSTEAD of being deployed separately. If the unit was not eligible to be deployed in this manner, then they cannot be deployed separately. Second, because it would be a loophole around keywords. In theory, if only the transport is being affected by the stratagem, you would only need Tallarn transports. You can put infantry of any regiment inside. Hell, you can even put a ton of Auxilia or Inquisitors inside.
So it seems that for our case, we would have to use 2 CP to infiltrate both the Vanguard and the Drill, and both must be Stygies.
Can you fine tech priests critique this idea I came up with. Its 1750 points for an official warhammer tournament setting. Do you guys think this would be fun and reasonably effective?
Alpha melee strike and some ranged daka in the back. Any thoughts?
1)You won't get +3 CP with armiger's in super heavy as far as I understood in codex. Sad but true .
2) better take 4 less priests and +1 dragoon. With a knight detach you LL need the CP and Dragoons are less CP hungry.
Transports with units embarked within them also all count as one unit during deployment, that's why transports are nice for reducing number of deployments. I agree, I think it's 1 CP to infiltrate the drill and the contents together.
U02dah4 wrote: A chimera is one drop reguardless of the number of internal units - that comes up a lot tourneywise due to the importance of first turn roll off.
So no 1 cp stygies one drill reguardless of contents
I think this is irrelevant. The deployed embarked rule is a replacement effect. It doesn't change the fact that there are two units, even if they are being deployed together.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Transports with units embarked within them also all count as one unit during deployment, that's why transports are nice for reducing number of deployments. I agree, I think it's 1 CP to infiltrate the drill and the contents together.
Okay, try to follow my logic:
1) All units need to be deployed (or "set up," as the phrasing provides)
2) Clandestine Infiltration sets up a unit in reserve, to be set up again at the start of the first round
3) The replacement effect occurs when in advance of when both units need to be set up (the phrasing is "instead of being set up separately")
So how can I embark the unit that IS NOT set up in reserve into the transport that IS set up in reserve? Would not the unit that is not in reserve have to be set up on the battlefield?
Can you fine tech priests critique this idea I came up with. Its 1750 points for an official warhammer tournament setting. Do you guys think this would be fun and reasonably effective?
Alpha melee strike and some ranged daka in the back. Any thoughts?
1)You won't get +3 CP with armiger's in super heavy as far as I understood in codex. Sad but true .
2) better take 4 less priests and +1 dragoon. With a knight detach you LL need the CP and Dragoons are less CP hungry.
3) I like the list same we can't take the CP!
Cheers.
Yes the Armiger CP issue is a bit frustrating. Perhaps there is a slim bit of hope they might revise in the upcoming FAQ. I want to take the little knights but the CP is the stumbling block
Include "HAMMERS" in the comment box at checkout with a bionic item in your cart to get free hammers. I think you also need to buy €15 worth of stuff too.
I immediately bought 35 bionic skulls and a ton of gothic bionic arms and shoulders. Going to make some cyborg zombie Electro-Priests. (If anyone is curious: Mixed Flagellant and Anvil bionic gothic arms and shoulders + Mantic ghoul legs + Bloodletter torsos + Anvil bionic skull heads)
I think these drills could make an insane difference in admech placing at tournaments. I'm gonna talk about these from the context of ITC tournament play, so keep that in mind.
One of the best things we have going for us in ITC is stygies electro priests. The default was to take 19 electro priests (as 20 gave up 2 secondary points). So the drill having 12 really only looses you 7 priests. In the ITC, taking 4 robots or 4 dragoons causes you to give up full gangbusters points. The priests fill the mortal wounds role that cawl with robots does, and the melee role the dragoons do. The only downside of the priests was infiltrating them and going second against mobile firepower or dedicated horde assault. The drill mitigates this so much.
linds14sr20det wrote: I think these drills could make an insane difference in admech placing at tournaments. I'm gonna talk about these from the context of ITC tournament play, so keep that in mind.
One of the best things we have going for us in ITC is stygies electro priests. The default was to take 19 electro priests (as 20 gave up 2 secondary points). So the drill having 12 really only looses you 7 priests. In the ITC, taking 4 robots or 4 dragoons causes you to give up full gangbusters points. The priests fill the mortal wounds role that cawl with robots does, and the melee role the dragoons do. The only downside of the priests was infiltrating them and going second against mobile firepower or dedicated horde assault. The drill mitigates this so much.
linds14sr20det wrote: I think these drills could make an insane difference in admech placing at tournaments. I'm gonna talk about these from the context of ITC tournament play, so keep that in mind.
One of the best things we have going for us in ITC is stygies electro priests. The default was to take 19 electro priests (as 20 gave up 2 secondary points). So the drill having 12 really only looses you 7 priests. In the ITC, taking 4 robots or 4 dragoons causes you to give up full gangbusters points. The priests fill the mortal wounds role that cawl with robots does, and the melee role the dragoons do. The only downside of the priests was infiltrating them and going second against mobile firepower or dedicated horde assault. The drill mitigates this so much.
Mars Battalion
Cawl
TPE (Warlord with Monitor Malevolus)
3x5 Rangers, each with an arquebus
1x4 Dakkabots
This list has a lot of scary stuff, a lot of mortal wounds it can hand out and a surprising amount of mobility and resilience. And it's pure admech!
It’s nice that it’s Admech. Have you bought the drills yet?
Nope haven't bought the drills yet. I'm gonna proxy them in a few games to test them out (I'll be trying them tonight) and I will report back.
However I did notice something, no where does it say that these are beta rules as far as I can tell. I was also gonna wait for these to become official before picking them up, but it looks like these are already official...
I sincerely hope not. It would be nice to have a good mid to close combat option not going over the top in points cost. For a change (I'm looking at you Kataphrons, Infiltrators, TPD, Fistelans...).
MrMoustaffa wrote: Anyone have dimensions for the drill? I'm tempted to scratch build mine somehow but its difficult to tell just how big it is, it looks massive
@linds14sr20detMade :: Yes, I also think the termites change the nature of admech in tournament ITC games. The Warhammer Community post even specifically mentioned staff priests as good models to put into the termites. Seeing as the community guys seem to be in on it, I think this is an intended admech improvement. The drills have hard counters from melta heavy armies, but they otherwise provide a giant boost to the STYGEIS staff priests builds. I think the termites+staffPriest combo is a strict improvement over a pure staffPriest list assuming you are a going second.
I get the heavy flamer debate being a real debate. You can get more bodies in places of those flamers if you take the storm bolters.
By my reckoning, the drill isn't actually much bigger in its core than a munitorum container. But the drilly bits all around it make it bigger, like a drop pod on its side. I put them at a 6" subway sandwich size.
EDIT: here is a rule conundrum for you ... you can put Hoplites in a Termite, but only the Termite has a FORGEWORLD STYGIES. So if you infiltrate the Termite ... but there are no-world Hoplites inside ... what happenes? Valid infiltration? Are the hoplites even infiltrating?
@Wulfey
I brought up this conundrum earlier. I think it depends on if we have to use the stratagem on only the transport or both the transport and its contents. If it's the former, then Inquisitors and non-Stygies units should be able to go into the Drills, which are Stygies. If so, Ryza Electro-Priests and Vanguard are probably the way to go.
I think it requires a FAQ. This isn't obvious. The TALLARN answer in the guard faq makes it seem like you get up to 3 units where the 3 includes units in the transport. But ... STYGIES isn't phrased like the TALLARN one. Urg
I ran a test game this weekend proxying the drill with a Triaros and running some Hoplites (I didnt realize they were min 10 instead of min 5, so I ran a 5 man squad to test them out)
I found the drill to be quite nice. Ran it with the volkite guns, and I was able to do some surprising damage to multi wound units with them. The drill did the bulk of its work in melee, working in tandem with its occupants to surround and crack transports and deny disembark, then plowing into an artillery backline to cause a bit more havoc before it was finally taken out.
Machine Spirit Resurgent was a clutch ability for this beastly thing, and the only real struggle it had was its Wounds stat - my opponent was able to nearly oneshot it at one point with an Onager (it survived with 1 hp and I popped a techpriest out of it and double repaired it on my turn back up to 5) but I found that only 10W made it an extremely glass cannon unit even with Stygies to protect it.
Hoplites were highly meh. Once again S6 and AP-1 makes Arc very bad at actually harming vehicle targets. Filling them with fulgurites seems the obvious good choice.
I definitely think the way to go are Electro-Priests. The Drill and Priests complement one another. Vanguard with Plasma Calivers works too, but you should bring a Dominus too. I don't think the Hoplites are that great.
Hi folks, can someone help me with a rule clarification. Under the beta rules the battle brothers stops people mixing and matching cross factions in the same detachment.
How do the likes of Greyfax, Eisenhorn etc now get used? If someone was daft enough to use one would he be best going for an auxiliary detachment? like you can no longer go company commander x2 +Greyfax for a valid supreme command detachment under the proposed rules correct?
How are you folks dealing with a heavy psychic army?
Regarding inquisitors:
1) Take one in an aux detachment
2) take 3 in a supreme command
3) take 1-2 in an inquisition vanguard
Regarding psychic defense in general:
A) Graia got a deny on a 4+ stratagem for 1CP, but that's about it for AdMech
B) Do you run allies? Guard can field some pretty cheap psykers, while Blood Angels can field Mephiston for example who gives you 2 denys (with +1 whilst in 12") and is pretty good in CQC (especially with stratagems)
lash92 wrote: Regarding inquisitors:
1) Take one in an aux detachment
2) take 3 in a supreme command
3) take 1-2 in an inquisition vanguard
Regarding psychic defense in general:
A) Graia got a deny on a 4+ stratagem for 1CP, but that's about it for AdMech
B) Do you run allies? Guard can field some pretty cheap psykers, while Blood Angels can field Mephiston for example who gives you 2 denys (with +1 whilst in 12") and is pretty good in CQC (especially with stratagems)
Hi cheers for the feedback
I’ve got a mix of various Admech units. Collection is growing but it’s still a bit light. For the time being I quite like mixing in a knight (questoris class) on occasion. That’s really the only ally as such that accompanies the Admech. Im not quite ready to go and buy a load of guard troops for the CP battery and was more floating alternative ideas to getting the 5/5 CP back from the company commander(Kurovs Aquila etc). I quite like the idea being involved in the psychic phase rather than being a complete passenger. Some of the inquisitor characters are quite cool and getting 1-3 models beats having to get 32!
That and I got shredded by some sneaky nurgle magic recently
So am I correct in that I can’t mix company commanders with inquisitors? The answer is probably obvious but my excuse is it’s been a long day haha.
U02dah4 wrote: You can in different detatchments just not in the same
This.
But since you are also looking for 5+/5+ CP farm you could maybe get a Guard supreme command with 3 Psykers?
That said I would highly recommend investing into some Guardsmen, they are just so cheap for what they do. And they can be painted pretty quick, since they haven´t got nearly the same level of detail like our skitarii.
lash92 wrote: Regarding inquisitors:
1) Take one in an aux detachment
2) take 3 in a supreme command
3) take 1-2 in an inquisition vanguard
Regarding psychic defense in general:
A) Graia got a deny on a 4+ stratagem for 1CP, but that's about it for AdMech
B) Do you run allies? Guard can field some pretty cheap psykers, while Blood Angels can field Mephiston for example who gives you 2 denys (with +1 whilst in 12") and is pretty good in CQC (especially with stratagems)
Hi cheers for the feedback
I’ve got a mix of various Admech units. Collection is growing but it’s still a bit light. For the time being I quite like mixing in a knight (questoris class) on occasion. That’s really the only ally as such that accompanies the Admech. Im not quite ready to go and buy a load of guard troops for the CP battery and was more floating alternative ideas to getting the 5/5 CP back from the company commander(Kurovs Aquila etc). I quite like the idea being involved in the psychic phase rather than being a complete passenger. Some of the inquisitor characters are quite cool and getting 1-3 models beats having to get 32!
That and I got shredded by some sneaky nurgle magic recently
So am I correct in that I can’t mix company commanders with inquisitors? The answer is probably obvious but my excuse is it’s been a long day haha.
I have a lot of fun running proper armies of mixed IG and admech, where the IG is more than just a CP battery and the admech are basically a full fledged batallion as well. Lots of CP and they tend to cover each other's weaknesses. Guard provides bodies and blunt firepower while admech help shut down fliers and hard guard counters like Altaoic. Granted I do this because I already own both armies and mainly just for fun, I'm sure there's ways to do a 50/50 guard Admech force in more competitive metas but I lack the models necessary to make my admech truly competitive like dragoons and Kastellans. I'm going to see if my onagers and Armigers can cover the roles since they're far cheaper models, but I'm not expecting to take 1st at Adepticon if that tells you anything.
Guard tanks especially are fun to run with Admech. Most admech players have to take enginseers anyways and they can repair IG tanks just as well as anything else, so there's no point in not doing so. Leman Russe's backing up the drills for a wall of T8 for example would be interesting or you could just do something basic like let the priest hang out next to a few basilisks in the back field. I honestly feel my enginseers do more work for my guard even when taken as admech than they do for my actual admech units since they get access to strats and relics that make them more effective. Combine that with the fact I run Valhallans they make my Russe's almost guaranteed to fight at full BS until the enemy can drop them permanently. That said they'd be just as effective backing up more powerful regiments like Cadian or Catachans.
lash92 wrote: Regarding psychic defense in general:
A) Graia got a deny on a 4+ stratagem for 1CP, but that's about it for AdMech
B) Do you run allies? Guard can field some pretty cheap psykers, while Blood Angels can field Mephiston for example who gives you 2 denys (with +1 whilst in 12") and is pretty good in CQC (especially with stratagems)
I defend against psykers by shooting them. Lol.
A) Don't forget Benevolence of the Omnissiah to stop mortal wounds.
B) Primaris Pysker is okay. If you do Blood Angels, Mephiston is definitely nice, as is making Lemartes or Slamguinius your warlord and picking Soulwarden. (Against a psychic focused army, having both is actually a big deal.)
WIthout soup psychic defense is too expensive for an admech army. 5CP battalions and soup nerfs just killed inquisitor greyfax and the culexus. Playing with a zero or -1 CP detachment is playing from behind. I have run the GRAIA thing before. I have seen people do the BLACK TEMPLARS deny thing. I have run the SISTERS deny thing. I have never seen the 4+ succeed, even with a reroll. I don't run lists that depend on 4+s to get by.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I really don't think cullexus is dead. I love my 3 assassin detachment
It's not that it's not viable. There are just some problems:
1) If you go up against a Psyker-less army, you have dead points. It's important then that your anti-Psyker component be value added rather than specialized.
2) Opportunity cost for an Assassin detachment is high. I would kill for four detachments (with detachments themselves getting rule of 3'ed).
I tried a couple of times the new gallant with two Armiger helping him, along with two battalions of Mars and some dakkabot and fistbot.
The knight is a beast, he simply murder everithing. It's a bit too CP heavy, as I wanted to have a Mechanicus warlord and I had to spend 2 CP to make the knight warlord and to give him the paragon gauntlet.
The knight was followed by three fistbots and the cybernetica warlord with Prime Hermeticon and Pseudogenetor, they were crucial in the late game as they survived 'till the third turn almost unscathed as my opponent had to struggle to bring down the knights.
Anyway I'm not amazed by the fistbot, I think that they are overcosted for what they can do, they miss something.
The datasmith is just wrong as elite choiche, should be a QG, it's way better than an engy.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I really don't think cullexus is dead. I love my 3 assassin detachment
It's not that it's not viable. There are just some problems:
1) If you go up against a Psyker-less army, you have dead points. It's important then that your anti-Psyker component be value added rather than specialized.
2) Opportunity cost for an Assassin detachment is high. I would kill for four detachments (with detachments themselves getting rule of 3'ed).
I don't think something with 6s to hit is ever dead points tbh. I've asked InControl(3rd in ITC) about it vs no psyker armies. It is still very effective. Plus for me it's just 1 Culexus. So no big deal.
I mean, both London GT winners ran a Culexus. It can't be that bad.
dadamowsky wrote: Apart from a single Culexus, what else would you take for a tournament army? Eversor and Vindicare?
I think it's not very useful to spend 250 points on 3 single models that don't synergizes with your main force. For that amount of point you can bring a Drill with 10 vanguard with 3 plasma that is way more useful as can grab objectives or use stratagems. There are many better ways to investing your points.
Um... assassins often make top 8 in major tournaments(and won both London GT tournaments(most recent big event)
Vindicare sucks so bad it's not even funny. 90 pts for 1 D3 damage shot, that gets heavy weapon penalty? Huh?
Callidus isn't as good past faq, but she still is ok-good
Eversor and culexus are both great.
They make the game from "ok standart imperium stuff" into "wow these guys are annoying". 1 tiny model deepstrike is amazing. It's very easy to leave a spot for it by accident. (Especially when callidus can deepstrike at 3+D6). It warps your opponent's movement(which is where games are won or lost)
dadamowsky wrote: Apart from a single Culexus, what else would you take for a tournament army? Eversor and Vindicare?
I think it's not very useful to spend 250 points on 3 single models that don't synergizes with your main force. For that amount of point you can bring a Drill with 10 vanguard with 3 plasma that is way more useful as can grab objectives or use stratagems. There are many better ways to investing your points.
I won't be able to deny psychic shenanigns with Vanguards in a Drill. And I know that I will face a Magnus 1ksons, and psychic heavy Eldar. So while a Drill is indeed tempting, I'm afraid a Graia stratagem will not help me enough to negate. It's only 1 stratagem per phase.
Generaly I want to field an Admech with 5 Dragoons (or 3 Icarus Onagers - haven't decided yet; my opponents will be FLY heavy as well), Crusader/Warden, Helverin and 2x Warglaives. 1750. For a spare points I can either boost my Admech with DS, or give myself some sort of psychic protection. And knowing how vulnerable knights are to psychic shenanigans, I'd rather givemyself some sort of protection in that compartment.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I really don't think cullexus is dead. I love my 3 assassin detachment
It's not that it's not viable. There are just some problems:
1) If you go up against a Psyker-less army, you have dead points. It's important then that your anti-Psyker component be value added rather than specialized.
2) Opportunity cost for an Assassin detachment is high. I would kill for four detachments (with detachments themselves getting rule of 3'ed).
I don't think something with 6s to hit is ever dead points tbh. I've asked InControl(3rd in ITC) about it vs no psyker armies. It is still very effective. Plus for me it's just 1 Culexus. So no big deal.
I mean, both London GT winners ran a Culexus. It can't be that bad.
Well, I have two points of concern, not just the one. I think it makes sense if you're using an army where two detachments take up the bulk of your points. AdMech is an army where it pays to diversify though.
I actually would almost always run a BA Supreme Command or Battalion over Assassins. Similar use cases, but more efficient. You can also get a Techmarine with Beamer and Vitae for CP recycling goodness.
Also, whether or not someone likes them or they're placing in different armies' lists doesn't really mean they're competitive for our army.
dadamowsky wrote: Apart from a single Culexus, what else would you take for a tournament army? Eversor and Vindicare?
If you had to pick, 2x Eversor and 1x Culexus or 3x Eversor are your best bets. They were a lot stronger when the character rules used to be broken. You could also take as many as you wanted back then. Haha.
dadamowsky wrote: I won't be able to deny psychic shenanigns with Vanguards in a Drill. And I know that I will face a Magnus 1ksons, and psychic heavy Eldar. So while a Drill is indeed tempting, I'm afraid a Graia stratagem will not help me enough to negate. It's only 1 stratagem per phase.
Please don't tell me you're trying to counter Magnus, 1K Sons, and Eldar with Deny the Witch. Just bring Icarus Crawlers and 5-6x Kastelan Robots and kill him on turn one. (Incidentally, those counter Eldar too.)
dadamowsky wrote: Apart from a single Culexus, what else would you take for a tournament army? Eversor and Vindicare?
If you had to pick, 2x Eversor and 1x Culexus or 3x Eversor are your best bets. They were a lot stronger when the character rules used to be broken. You could also take as many as you wanted back then. Haha.
dadamowsky wrote: I won't be able to deny psychic shenanigns with Vanguards in a Drill. And I know that I will face a Magnus 1ksons, and psychic heavy Eldar. So while a Drill is indeed tempting, I'm afraid a Graia stratagem will not help me enough to negate. It's only 1 stratagem per phase.
Please don't tell me you're trying to counter Magnus, 1K Sons, and Eldar with Deny the Witch. Just bring Icarus Crawlers and 5-6x Kastelan Robots and kill him on turn one. (Incidentally, those counter Eldar too.)
I want to counter messing with invul saves, or -3 on Hemlock. I don't even hope to deny every D3 wounds I will be swallowing. As for Kastelans - out of the option. I'm playing on a very terrain and LoS breaks heavy tables, and more often than not Kastelans has nothing to shoot at without repositioning. Or nothing at all. BS5+ on a unit 110 pts per model is not working at all in my favor. Even more if being CC engaged in turn 2 by Shining Spears from behind a LoS break to avoid Overwatch.
EDIT: An example of the table from yesterday match against Eldar, and a few terrains went missing this round anyway (two big rocks and a building were out). Deployment - bottom right and upper left quarter. ITC cut to the heart mission. The wall you see in the bottom just as the building in the upper quarter were completely blocking LoS from anything standing behind (walls are counted as solid in my gaming enviroment - can't shoot through windows). Kastelans had literaly nothing to shoot at. Onagers barely could shoot at all. Basicaly a typical shooting Admech is a great no-no on these tables.
https://imgur.com/YUSYzzY
Uh... what Imperium model does better than Icarus Crawler against -3 Hemlock again?
Shooting minus to hit is baked into the cake. Might as well not play AdMech or any shooting army if that deters you. That being said, minus to hit has a greater psychological effect than a statistical one. It's a bit better than being in cover or dealing with a FNP, but that's all.
You aren't going to get engaged by Shining Spears on turn 2 if you're castling correctly. I mean, who would position closely to terrain that can be used to prevent LOS like you're proposing?
Really, I am not sure you understand the matchup if these are your worries.
Please take a look at the table I posted. I were literaly unable to castle up without having a wall LoS blocking. If I wanted a LoS, I'd have to be deployed near the center circle and be in SSpears charge turn 1. There's no way I can think of to make Kastelans working in such enviroment.
Wait, what? How did you guys set up your terrain?!
That board looks poorly balanced. That big building on the right is in a terrible position, the wall and rock in the center are strange pieces to build around, and the bottom-right deployment zone is rather large. And looking at the ruler on the corner for scale, unfair for a variety of armies.
EDIT: On a side note, if you got the top-left deployment, you should be okay. The center-left area actually lets you shoot into the enemy deployment and all areas he is forced to move through to maneuver because that big building in the center-right and ruins in bottom-left are too close to the edge.
Im relatively new to the game, I don't know much about terrain building. But knowing what am I up against, I have to adjust or embrace loosing constantly.
Im relatively new to the game, I don't know much about terrain building. But knowing what am I up against, I have to adjust or embrace loosing constantly.
For ITC set ups, divide the table into a 3x3 grid with 9 imaginary cells. Place one small terrain piece in each of the 8 outer cells, taking care to mirror their sizes and orientations. Then place two large terrain pieces in the center cell in a way that blocks LOS to the opponent's deployment, but never along the short axis of the table. In your example, the big buildings would be along the top-left and bottom-right edges of the center cell. Ruins would just be in the centers of the eight outer cells, with the corners pointed toward the center.
Here's an example:
I would swap the bottom-center buiding here with the trees in the center, but as you can see, one terrain piece in each of the outer cells. The big building and trees are opposite one another in the center, but on the long axis. The ruins have their corners facing the center.
dadamowsky wrote: Apart from a single Culexus, what else would you take for a tournament army? Eversor and Vindicare?
With the new rules I did a detachment of 2 Eversors, 2 Culexus, and then a single Callidus and Vindicare. It was kinda fun. Callidus is very underrated for sure in terms of utility, though you can't really expect the Vindicare to do TOO much. I love that old model anyway so to bust it out anyway...
Im relatively new to the game, I don't know much about terrain building. But knowing what am I up against, I have to adjust or embrace loosing constantly.
For ITC set ups, divide the table into a 3x3 grid with 9 imaginary cells. Place one small terrain piece in each of the 8 outer cells, taking care to mirror their sizes and orientations. Then place two large terrain pieces in the center cell in a way that blocks LOS to the opponent's deployment, but never along the short axis of the table. In your example, the big buildings would be along the top-left and bottom-right edges of the center cell. Ruins would just be in the centers of the eight outer cells, with the corners pointed toward the center.
Here's an example:
I would swap the bottom-center buiding here with the trees in the center, but as you can see, one terrain piece in each of the outer cells. The big building and trees are opposite one another in the center, but on the long axis. The ruins have their corners facing the center.
BTW, are there some sort of official ITC guidelines in terms of terrain design? I haven't found any on their site so far.
Won a game versus sneaky death guard this evening. I know everyone Is firmly on the stygies train but my goodness Cawls rerolls make a difference.
Go Team Mars!
If I was going to splash on a supreme command detachment would I be best bringing blood angels or guard for CP regen? Or would this entirely depend on my current list?
I want to keep Admech bodies for my battalion but am open to adding in 3 characters(models) to my list for CP fluffing
I do think the trees in the middle aren't right, but that's a bit harsh.
Ideasweasel wrote: Won a game versus sneaky death guard this evening. I know everyone Is firmly on the stygies train but my goodness Cawls rerolls make a difference.
Go Team Mars!
If I was going to splash on a supreme command detachment would I be best bringing blood angels or guard for CP regen? Or would this entirely depend on my current list?
I want to keep Admech bodies for my battalion but am open to adding in 3 characters(models) to my list for CP fluffing
If it has to be Supreme Command detachment, take Blood Angels. Probably Slamguinius, Mephiston, and a Techmarine with Beamer and Vitae. That or Slamguinius, Lemartes, a Techmarine with Beamer and Vitae, and a unit of 15x Death Company (12 Bolters+Chainswords, 3 Thunder Hammer).
lash92 wrote: Just beware, those Blood Angels are addicted to your CP xD
Has anyone some experience with running Ironstrider Ballistarii? (preferably as Stygies) If so do you prefer Auto- or Lascanons for them?
Yeah. Hence why I would take a Company Commander and Techmarine with Vitae.
Use the Lascannons. Autocannons are strong against a very narrow band of targets.
I'd argue for Autocannons actually. You pay for AP on the Lascannons that might not come into play, it has less shots of you have smaller targets, and the consistent damage is good for 2-3 wound models.
If you want more damage, I'm sure that the Dune Crawler can satisfy that need. Pretty sure those were about equal, but the Autocannon just makes more sense for the Ballistarii.
Suzuteo wrote: Wait, what? How did you guys set up your terrain?!
That board looks poorly balanced. That big building on the right is in a terrible position, the wall and rock in the center are strange pieces to build around, and the bottom-right deployment zone is rather large. And looking at the ruler on the corner for scale, unfair for a variety of armies.
EDIT: On a side note, if you got the top-left deployment, you should be okay. The center-left area actually lets you shoot into the enemy deployment and all areas he is forced to move through to maneuver because that big building in the center-right and ruins in bottom-left are too close to the edge.
Lots of terrain blocking LOS is pretty much essential in 8th least game devolve into 2 gunlines seeing who shoots other most.
If you have so little terrain you can pretty much quarantee LOS to enemy DZ without issues you have too little terrain.
And is boring as hell. So let\s see. Huge swathes of free LOS so if you aren't gunline you are screwed. And top of that symmetric which is boring as hell.
I make table almost symmetric because I don't like giving advantages to one player based on a single die roll before the game begins. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to pick the side with most terrain. (since I play with pre-placed objectives)
I do think the trees in the middle aren't right, but that's a bit harsh.
Ideasweasel wrote: Won a game versus sneaky death guard this evening. I know everyone Is firmly on the stygies train but my goodness Cawls rerolls make a difference.
Go Team Mars!
If I was going to splash on a supreme command detachment would I be best bringing blood angels or guard for CP regen? Or would this entirely depend on my current list?
I want to keep Admech bodies for my battalion but am open to adding in 3 characters(models) to my list for CP fluffing
If it has to be Supreme Command detachment, take Blood Angels. Probably Slamguinius, Mephiston, and a Techmarine with Beamer and Vitae. That or Slamguinius, Lemartes, a Techmarine with Beamer and Vitae, and a unit of 15x Death Company (12 Bolters+Chainswords, 3 Thunder Hammer).
For now it’s looking like a supreme command yeah. Less models and lets me dabble without to big a commitment. I’m hesitant to get scores of models painted up for trial
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lash92 wrote: Just beware, those Blood Angels are addicted to your CP xD
Yes not sure how well that will stack with Admech but might be fun for me to play about with
So +3 Super heavy detach. Let us talka bout lists and how they perform in table.
So far i d like some feedback for two variations.
One list with crusader knight and one with lancer .Obviously im talking about orientation .
I m thinking a melee oriented list with lancer dragoons stygies and assasins as my 3 detachments. or with our assasin win two detachments. And id like to see what you all think about the rest of unit.
I got a list something like
lancer + 2 helverins super heavy
battalion dominus 2xneutron 4-5xdragoons transport some plasma or priests?
Yoda79 wrote: So +3 Super heavy detach. Let us talka bout lists and how they perform in table.
So far i d like some feedback for two variations.
One list with crusader knight and one with lancer .Obviously im talking about orientation .
I m thinking a melee oriented list with lancer dragoons stygies and assasins as my 3 detachments. or with our assasin win two detachments. And id like to see what you all think about the rest of unit.
I got a list something like
lancer + 2 helverins super heavy
battalion dominus 2xneutron 4-5xdragoons transport some plasma or priests?
and a crusader list still on the making .
thanks for any input or details on playtesting
Lancer looks fun
What do you think of the below list now it generates 3CP (for GW tournaments of 1750)
Yeah the Drill is quite tempting too. A small problem with your Lancer idea. Over on Bolter someone pointed out an issue with stratagems exalted court and heirlooms of the household. The wording is “Questoris Class” or “Dominus Class” nothing about Ceratus. Which means I guess it ain’t official unless gw do an FAQ 2.0
And that is probably months away right? I might email them in case it was missed and unintentional
