rvd1ofakind wrote: Well the "characters" part doesn't really matter? It's only a downside for tyrants
Automatically Appended Next Post: Feel free to add a third edit about poxwalker BS where admech can't handle 250 bodies
Poxwalkers: I actually think we can handle huge body count lists. My basic guard/admech list has access to a good 120-150 shots a turn and a poxwalker list will give me 2 solid rounds of shooting from my dakkabots. I am fine with that.
Dark reapers tho ... uh ... you need specific melee support to handle those. When I faced them previously just took the 6+ to hit and shot my robots at them to make sure they died. Robots at str6,-2, ignore cover are actually great if they can get LOS. But the entire rest of the dex suffers badly.
And flyrants ... like yikes I just don't know. I think the answer is shield captains on bikes. Dragoons have a great mathhammer swing against a flyrant, if your opponent gives you the chance. I just don't see a competent player feeding you a flyrant when they have the option of blocking your charge so easily.
For next month, I will be finishing up detailing all the missile pods on my onagers and will be going all in on icarus. Neutrons are amazing if you think you will face guard parking lots. But I think those days are done. The real enemies have FLY.
EDIT: if this wasn't clear from previously, I am coming at this from a competitive ITC standpoint where I expect to see copies of the adepticon lists next month. Tournaments cost 20 bucks to get in, but I always impulse buy like 100-200 bucks of plastic and paints leading up to it to trick out my list to keep up with what is good/meta. And then there is the good 10-20 hours of modeling time to get ready. Then 10 hours of intense tournament fighting. I am a busy guy and I regard that as a serious investment and take it seriously. If something sucks, I am not bringing it to something that costs me so much. I play at least 50% admech, so my goals are always a 2-1 record. I know the limitations of the dex.
Welcome to the Icarus club. Does your new list have 3 Icarus crawlers or 2. I would love to try some tournaments in the uk. It does seem like you have a thriving scene stateside. I will have to have a look at what the uk has to offer.
Most likely I am going 2 dunecrawlers, 5 dakkabots, 3 shieldcaptains, celestine, and cawl. Then the rest of the points in scout screens and a company commander. Contrast 3 possible units:
160 point Biker shield captain -- a character who is a beast in melee when he charges, brings his own aura, 7W, T6, 3 or 4++, 5 str 8, -3, d3 damage swings on a charge. Has a hurricane bolter to help with screens. Because he can FLY, he can get to all the sneaky models that abuse terrain.
130 point Icarus onager - a tough for the points shooting platform that threatens most targets in the game (but not T8). 10 shots, but a poor choice for wrath of mars.
110 point dakkabot - point for point best shooter in the game with wrath of mars and cawl. 18 shot with just the right amount of AP and volume. Inefficient versus T8, but can still make it work with wrath.
The bikers help out against all possible lists that aren't 8 guard tank parking lots or 3 knight lists. And the bikers have a great responsiveness with their 14" move and broadly threatening profile. The onagers are ... onagers. They shoot. They scoot. 5 robots makes it so my opponent must shoot the robot herd. Which I don't actually mind on the first turn. But boy is that 130 point onager tougher than the 110 point robot. THis is all going to be reevaluated on tuesday when the big update drops. EDIT: the models who really got eaten are my basilisks. I think the shieldcaptains will do more than the basilisks. As much as I want to like the basilisks, if i am going scouts ... what do the basilsks bring that the bikers don't? Range and non-LOS is good. But they get dumped on by -1 modifiers. And the basilisks are vulernable to getting tied up in a way the bikercaptains aren't.
Not sure why Flyrants are an issue. Three Wrathbots drop on in a turn if I recall. I'm more worried about Reapers, but I figure they'll get a nerf soon.
Wulfey wrote: Most likely I am going 2 dunecrawlers, 5 dakkabots, 3 shieldcaptains, celestine, and cawl. Then the rest of the points in scout screens and a company commander. Contrast 3 possible units:
160 point Biker shield captain -- a character who is a beast in melee when he charges, brings his own aura, 7W, T6, 3 or 4++, 5 str 8, -3, d3 damage swings on a charge. Has a hurricane bolter to help with screens. Because he can FLY, he can get to all the sneaky models that abuse terrain.
130 point Icarus onager - a tough for the points shooting platform that threatens most targets in the game (but not T8). 10 shots, but a poor choice for wrath of mars.
110 point dakkabot - point for point best shooter in the game with wrath of mars and cawl. 18 shot with just the right amount of AP and volume. Inefficient versus T8, but can still make it work with wrath.
The bikers help out against all possible lists that aren't 8 guard tank parking lots or 3 knight lists. And the bikers have a great responsiveness with their 14" move and broadly threatening profile. The onagers are ... onagers. They shoot. They scoot. 5 robots makes it so my opponent must shoot the robot herd. Which I don't actually mind on the first turn. But boy is that 130 point onager tougher than the 110 point robot. THis is all going to be reevaluated on tuesday when the big update drops. EDIT: the models who really got eaten are my basilisks. I think the shieldcaptains will do more than the basilisks. As much as I want to like the basilisks, if i am going scouts ... what do the basilsks bring that the bikers don't? Range and non-LOS is good. But they get dumped on by -1 modifiers. And the basilisks are vulernable to getting tied up in a way the bikercaptains aren't.
That list your making sounds quite fun to play. Nice mix of nuke from the back and punches up front
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well the "characters" part doesn't really matter? It's only a downside for tyrants
Automatically Appended Next Post: Feel free to add a third edit about poxwalker BS where admech can't handle 250 bodies
Poxwalkers: I actually think we can handle huge body count lists. My basic guard/admech list has access to a good 120-150 shots a turn and a poxwalker list will give me 2 solid rounds of shooting from my dakkabots. I am fine with that.
Dark reapers tho ... uh ... you need specific melee support to handle those. When I faced them previously just took the 6+ to hit and shot my robots at them to make sure they died. Robots at str6,-2, ignore cover are actually great if they can get LOS. But the entire rest of the dex suffers badly.
And flyrants ... like yikes I just don't know. I think the answer is shield captains on bikes. Dragoons have a great mathhammer swing against a flyrant, if your opponent gives you the chance. I just don't see a competent player feeding you a flyrant when they have the option of blocking your charge so easily.
For next month, I will be finishing up detailing all the missile pods on my onagers and will be going all in on icarus. Neutrons are amazing if you think you will face guard parking lots. But I think those days are done. The real enemies have FLY.
EDIT: if this wasn't clear from previously, I am coming at this from a competitive ITC standpoint where I expect to see copies of the adepticon lists next month. Tournaments cost 20 bucks to get in, but I always impulse buy like 100-200 bucks of plastic and paints leading up to it to trick out my list to keep up with what is good/meta. And then there is the good 10-20 hours of modeling time to get ready. Then 10 hours of intense tournament fighting. I am a busy guy and I regard that as a serious investment and take it seriously. If something sucks, I am not bringing it to something that costs me so much. I play at least 50% admech, so my goals are always a 2-1 record. I know the limitations of the dex.
The problem is that more and more threats are only answerable with Dakkabots or something we bring for them. I find every list I make a challenge to squeeze 5-6 Dakkabots and 4-6 Dragoons in, along with 3x5 Scouts, 2-3 Basilisks, and 2-3 Icarus Crawlers.
Neutron is dead for ITC. Has been for months; everything that is a vehicle that does not fly is answerable with Dragoons. Long live Icarus.
Neutron is absolutely not dead. Minimum 3 damage is good, Strength 10 is good, and forcing invuln with the -4 is also good. The weapons on the Icarus array have gak for wounding power. You are at best wounding most worthwhile vehicles or monters on a 4+. Get this Neutron is dead bs outta and sit down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No psykers
HQs with anti-synergy (leading to a choice between low CP or a subpar list)
Half of the canticles are almost useless(which makes mars' trait terrible)
Low mobility
No fliers
No transports
No scouts
No deepstrike that isn't tied to a subpar forgeworld.
Really bad warlord traits and artifacts when compared to other armies
Fragile without shroudpsalm (turn 1 and roll later) and stygies (ignored by dark reapers and melee armies)
ultimentra wrote: Neutron is absolutely not dead. Minimum 3 damage is good, Strength 10 is good, and forcing invuln with the -4 is also good. The weapons on the Icarus array have gak for wounding power. You are at best wounding most worthwhile vehicles or monters on a 4+. Get this Neutron is dead bs outta and sit down.
Fine. To be fair, Neutron is only dead as the default choice. If you need dedicated anti-tank in your army, they are a good option. But Icarus is so clearly superior against virtually all of the top threats in the meta at the moment. I mean, minimum 3 damage is good. Strength 10 is overkill. AP-4 is also overkill; you don't need that much to force invulnerable saves. But the Icarus wounding power is great. Here's a list of everything Icarus is better than Neutron against: Eldar, Tau, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Smash Brothers, Flyrants, most infantry in general.
And every other army pretty much can be managed by Kastelans, Basilisks, and Dragoons, which should be the bulk of your force anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No psykers
HQs with anti-synergy (leading to a choice between low CP or a subpar list)
Half of the canticles are almost useless(which makes mars' trait terrible)
Low mobility
No fliers
No transports
No scouts
No deepstrike that isn't tied to a subpar forgeworld.
Really bad warlord traits and artifacts when compared to other armies
Fragile without shroudpsalm (turn 1 and roll later) and stygies (ignored by dark reapers and melee armies)
That's a long list
What’s your go to build just now? Assuming you were playing in a competitive environment. I wonder if they might FAQ in a scout rule or bring us something spicy. Probably not, but you never know eh
I like your list, not spammy, not cheesy, and I tend to have a love for an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with my Stygies, fits the fluff think. With the upcoming Deathwatch codex I'd love to see if I can include some to get a really anti-Xeno force, crunch and fluff-wise.
Did you guys paint your stygies differently to mars, if you went into a tournament - What would the requirement be to make them identifiable. Would different coloured bases be enough?
Oh wow, that’s awesome. I really like Lucius but like Cawl in my list. For experimenting and trying out stuff painting models differently seems extreme.
I have an upcoming Narrative Campaign Match against a Necron player, but seeing as I've never played against Necrons before I'm unsure how to outfit my Onagers!
I currently have 2 set up with Neutron Lasers and another one with the Icarus systems. I'm considering changing one of the Neutrons for a Heavy Phosphor to deal with Warrior blobs that might cause me some issues.
What are your thoughts for good Necrons counters with their new Codex?
I havent had a look at the new codex yet, but I dont think QS have changed... if so, youd be best served with leaving the neutron laser at home. If they can roll under your damage value, they can ignore it, iirc. So high damage is only rarely useful against necron vehicles, those without QS excepted (like the Monolith). The Icarus array seems like a better idea, since all necron vehicles outside of the stalker have fly, and most have low toughness as well.
To deal with warrior blobs, I think the Onager is the wrong choice in general. Better go with Dakkastelans, or anything else that shoots a lot. Melee can be an option too, but... probably not for Mechanicus.
Ideasweasel wrote: Did you guys paint your stygies differently to mars, if you went into a tournament - What would the requirement be to make them identifiable. Would different coloured bases be enough?
I did not. But it's only my Dragoons usually. One Enginseer at worst, and I tell them which one. (I have both a 30k Enginseer and a 40k one.)
I have an upcoming Narrative Campaign Match against a Necron player, but seeing as I've never played against Necrons before I'm unsure how to outfit my Onagers!
I currently have 2 set up with Neutron Lasers and another one with the Icarus systems. I'm considering changing one of the Neutrons for a Heavy Phosphor to deal with Warrior blobs that might cause me some issues.
What are your thoughts for good Necrons counters with their new Codex?
Hi, welcome !
Do you own Kastelan Robots ? If you do, they'll be fine against the Warrior blobs, the Onager is best suited with the Laser or Icarus Array, the Phosphor is redundant when you have Robots because they do the same job better (more shots and double shot mode). I believe you'll want both, as their vehicles are fairly resilient, and a good chunk of them has the Fly keyword. Didn't have a look at the new codex yet, so can't really advise you on that.
So it looks like flyrants will be adjusted based on adepticon. 8 of top 16 had 5 flyrants or more. Which shows something is obviously busted. But this could mean shield captain bikers may also get his with the nerf. Really they need to just make the flyrant wings more then 20 points. At 20 points ... why would you take a tyrant that moves slow and can't deepstrike?
To be fair I think we're going to see a "Tau commander" style Nerf for many armies. It's not just Have tyrants after all, we see tons of daemon princes, IG commanders/tank commanders, Shield Captains, etc. Etc. A lot of busted stuff can come from the HQ sections so I wouldn't be surprised if GW just decides to lay down a blanket rule for "commander" style units where they are limited to one per detachment. If this does happen, it's going to be rough on admech if the dominus is included. All the starter sets come with dominuses and I haven't seen any bundles that come with the new techpriest, which means I'll need to buy a few at base cost.
I kind of need to figure out what I'm going to do with all these spare dominus anyways. I've got probably 5 by now and the two I've already built are magnetized. I guess I'll just use them to convert up techpriests and as a source of bitz.
I think they are moving closer and closer toward just making all HQs and characters unique to their detachment.
Also, super salty that the Deldar (does anyone still call them that or am I late to the Drukhari/Drucchi bandwagon?) got such cool detachment rules when we don't even get our defining 7E army-wide scout rules.
Suzuteo wrote: I think they are moving closer and closer toward just making all HQs and characters unique to their detachment.
Also, super salty that the Deldar (does anyone still call them that or am I late to the Drukhari/Drucchi bandwagon?) got such cool detachment rules when we don't even get our defining 7E army-wide scout rules.
This is more showing how uninspired certain codices are. AdMech and Vanilla Marines are the most guilty of this travesty.
Suzuteo wrote: I think they are moving closer and closer toward just making all HQs and characters unique to their detachment.
Also, super salty that the Deldar (does anyone still call them that or am I late to the Drukhari/Drucchi bandwagon?) got such cool detachment rules when we don't even get our defining 7E army-wide scout rules.
I'm more annoyed that galvanic rifles lost their snipe ability for synergy with arquebuses and our overall lack of relentless nowadays. Used to be we could fire anything on the move no problem with skitarii, now we have to stay still to fire the arquebus, one of the only weapons in the game that requires you to do so.
Also, I really want a skitarii HQ. We used to be able to take proper Alphas but now you can't make a proper skitarii army without at least one techpriest running around which is annoying since the lore flatout states they exist.
If after the FAQ, soup isn't reigned in somehow I'll bite the bullet and get scouts as they are a MUST.
What's the default detachment?
Librarian/Tiggy
?
Scout
Scout
Scout
rvd1ofakind wrote: If after the FAQ, soup isn't reigned in somehow I'll bite the bullet and get scouts as they are a MUST.
What's the default detachment?
Librarian/Tiggy
?
Scout
Scout
Scout
Are librarians really worth it? I don't play space marines but they've always struck me as sort of underwhelming. Around codex release people seemed to be singing Greyfax's praises, why did that stop?
Oh and I just hope that in addition of tweaking detachment rules that they get rid of the supreme command detachment in matched play, it's almost the one constant offender in the super strong spam lists.
Well a lot of top imperium lists have 1 librarian. They're pretty useful. Plus what else will you take from spacemarine HQs. You don't wanna lose the traits.
rvd1ofakind wrote: If after the FAQ, soup isn't reigned in somehow I'll bite the bullet and get scouts as they are a MUST.
What's the default detachment?
Librarian/Tiggy
?
Scout
Scout
Scout
I do a Soup Battalion with Company Commanders. I don't expect the Scouts to do anything but act as a speed bump and die, so I don't want to waste points making them combat-worthy.
So in my case (no astra militarum), 3x scout, commander(aquila and strategist), primaris psyker?
+ inquisitor, 3 assassins (or just add 2 assassins to the previous detachment)
+ big admech detachment (or even 2)
ps: what's the official company commander miniature
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well a lot of top imperium lists have 1 librarian. They're pretty useful. Plus what else will you take from spacemarine HQs. You don't wanna lose the traits.
Sure, but most of his powers only affect other adeptus astartes. I guess null zone is really good but I personally feel like they have limited utility in an army mostly consisting of other stuff.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So in my case (no astra militarum), 3x scout, commander(aquila and strategist), primaris psyker?
+ inquisitor, 3 assassins (or just add 2 assassins to the previous detachment)
+ big admech detachment (or even 2)
ps: what's the official company commander miniature
And then build the guy with the beret/flat cap hat thing. Equip him with a sword arm and a las pistol. Bish bosh bing!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: Even if I had zero Infantry, I would still bring one Company Commander for my Warlord. Pay 30 points to fulfill a tax and get 5+/5+. Hard to pass up.
Suzuteo do you live in America? The timings of your posts seem to be on an almost European timeline. Was halfheartedly trying to figure out if your up unbelievably early or ridiculously late haha
Do sisters work well with admech? If they do should I wait until they come out in plastic or continue working towards imperial knights who are too cool to ignore just because of rules.
kastelen wrote: Do sisters work well with admech? If they do should I wait until they come out in plastic or continue working towards imperial knights who are too cool to ignore just because of rules.
Your budget will answer that question for you. But knights are always cool. Who knows what the sisters launch will entail but as rvd says it’s a fair ways off
I’m probably being a bit thick here. What is the stygies replacing the entire list or just the mars section? That many ironstrider/dragoons would be awesome. Do you have that many?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh wait that stygies comes to just shy of 1260 points. Think I’ve answered my own question
I personally like that stygies list better since most of your anti-tank is tied up in dakkastelans in that mars detachment. Depending on terrain (or lucky charges) a significant portion of your army risks being tied up. The legs on that stygies list gives you more flexibility. It's lascannon balistarii you had in mind right? (However buying and then building & painting 12 dragoons/balistarii has got to suck)
I personally dont rate celestine these days. She can get in the face of the enemy fast, but I find that her damage rarely sticks. I have fielded her twice and seen her fielded twice recently and every time she has failed to really destroy anything of note. For the point I would rather have a Blood Angel Captain Smash.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So in my case (no astra militarum), 3x scout, commander(aquila and strategist), primaris psyker?
+ inquisitor, 3 assassins (or just add 2 assassins to the previous detachment)
+ big admech detachment (or even 2)
ps: what's the official company commander miniature
Yeah, I do two Commanders, but if they're doing an HQ nerf, I will do a Primaris Psyker instead.
I made my own Company Commander with a Skitarius Prime. All my Infantry/Vanguard use Anvil Gothic Void Torsos + Short Greatcoat Legs, so they stand out.
Suzuteo do you live in America? The timings of your posts seem to be on an almost European timeline. Was halfheartedly trying to figure out if your up unbelievably early or ridiculously late haha
I live in the US, in the SF Bay Area. It's near where Wulfey is, actually. Very competitive scene.
I just work weird hours because I have to deal with remote workers in Japan and China.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So in my case (no astra militarum), 3x scout, commander(aquila and strategist), primaris psyker?
+ inquisitor, 3 assassins (or just add 2 assassins to the previous detachment)
+ big admech detachment (or even 2)
ps: what's the official company commander miniature
Yeah, I do two Commanders, but if they're doing an HQ nerf, I will do a Primaris Psyker instead.
I made my own Company Commander with a Skitarius Prime. All my Infantry/Vanguard use Anvil Gothic Void Torsos + Short Greatcoat Legs, so they stand out.
Suzuteo do you live in America? The timings of your posts seem to be on an almost European timeline. Was halfheartedly trying to figure out if your up unbelievably early or ridiculously late haha
I live in the US, in the SF Bay Area. It's near where Wulfey is, actually. Very competitive scene.
I just work weird hours because I have to deal with remote workers in Japan and China.
Ah that explains it then. I’ve been once on holiday when I used to live in Houston. On our way out of the states we visited friends in Cali and did a bit of traveling. Seemed a nice place. The tv show mythbusters is filmed in your neck of the woods too iirc.
Ideasweasel wrote: How many dragoons are currently in your collection rvd?
Only 3 Dragoons, 3 Balistarii (which I can use as 6 of either because no one cares)
Nice, love the models. A big stack of them can be hammer blow to the wallet though. I wonder how tricky they would
be to magnetise but like you say. Nobody minds if you proxy them as either
Nice, love the models. A big stack of them can be hammer blow to the wallet though. I wonder how tricky they would
be to magnetise but like you say. Nobody minds if you proxy them as either
I'm too pedantic to allow myself the luxury of proxying. And either I'm real dumb or it's stupid hard to magnetise that model to be able to swap between lascannons, autocannons and taser goad. It's so fiddly and overly complex in build that I just ended up doing them mono-build. I'm sure some mad man has succeeded though
ultimentra wrote: I personally dont rate celestine these days. She can get in the face of the enemy fast, but I find that her damage rarely sticks. I have fielded her twice and seen her fielded twice recently and every time she has failed to really destroy anything of note. For the point I would rather have a Blood Angel Captain Smash.
They seem similar, but slamguinius and celestine are radically different models. Celestine costs at most 1Cp per game to reroll her resurrect. Slamguinius is 4 base CP to do his job. Slamguinius is T4, 5W, 3++, so he can die to 30 something basic bolter shots if he isn't in cover. Slamguinius moves 12" a turn, or requires 2CP for his 3d6 charge. Celestine moves 24" a turn. Slamguinius does studendous damage to high toughness single targets or 3wound multi model units. Celestine consistently kills small shooting units in the backfield. Slamguinius brings a lot more to the table when helping a guard brigade that has unlimited CP and poor strategems for turning CP into damage. Celestine is more help for a MARS list that has great ways of turning CP into damage but has a much smaller pool than a guard brigade. Celestine is how I win ITC games. She gets me linebreaker. She gets me 1 unit kill a turn if I pick easy targets. She tanks way more fire than she should. And she has a 24" melee bubble to bail my robots out of trouble. Slamguinius ... I don't have the CP for him. I like the idea. But where do I get the CP?
Celestine seems to have some good uses in your list, have you tried a custodes jetbike shield-captain? I'd imagine he could fill a somewhat similar role a bit cheaper but losing 10" of movement is probably the biggest drawback..Well that, and the fact that they might be hit with a nerf bat soon
Ideasweasel wrote: Ah that explains it then. I’ve been once on holiday when I used to live in Houston. On our way out of the states we visited friends in Cali and did a bit of traveling. Seemed a nice place. The tv show mythbusters is filmed in your neck of the woods too iirc.
It's nice, but don't move here. Lol. The cost of living is insane.
PiñaColada wrote: I'm too pedantic to allow myself the luxury of proxying. And either I'm real dumb or it's stupid hard to magnetise that model to be able to swap between lascannons, autocannons and taser goad. It's so fiddly and overly complex in build that I just ended up doing them mono-build. I'm sure some mad man has succeeded though
I am sure that the Dark Eldar make captured Guardsmen magnetize Dragoons in the depths of their deepest, darkest dungeons. Just building them is a nightmare. I cannot imagine attaching tiny magnets to their various spindly parts.
Ideasweasel wrote: Ah that explains it then. I’ve been once on holiday when I used to live in Houston. On our way out of the states we visited friends in Cali and did a bit of traveling. Seemed a nice place. The tv show mythbusters is filmed in your neck of the woods too iirc.
It's nice, but don't move here. Lol. The cost of living is insane.
PiñaColada wrote: I'm too pedantic to allow myself the luxury of proxying. And either I'm real dumb or it's stupid hard to magnetise that model to be able to swap between lascannons, autocannons and taser goad. It's so fiddly and overly complex in build that I just ended up doing them mono-build. I'm sure some mad man has succeeded though
I am sure that the Dark Eldar make captured Guardsmen magnetize Dragoons in the depths of their deepest, darkest dungeons. Just building them is a nightmare. I cannot imagine attaching tiny magnets to their various spindly parts.
Oh absolutely! I love the models and how they play but those things are a pain all the way to the gaming table. I ended up nixing that idea. I basically sat there with a lot of hate in my eyes for an hour trying to write down on paper where all the magnets should be attached and how. It looked like the scribblings of a crazy person.I highly recommend magnetising the taser goad arm though, it's super simple and helps transporting them (and dynamic poses) alot.
Also, regarding crazy rent, I have a friend who lives in Lower Haight in SF. The dollar to square foot ratio is so bad I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time. It's a nice city though
PiñaColada wrote: Also, regarding crazy rent, I have a friend who lives in Lower Haight in SF. The dollar to square foot ratio is so bad I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time. It's a nice city though
It used to be a nice city. The homeless problem has gotten out of control. There are mentally disturbed people walking around, insane levels of property crime, needles on the floor, and the Tenderloin smells like a flooded-out weed shop.
On a more positive note, I finished my Scouts!
I included them in the Painting Challenge for March, which coincidentally was Space Marines.
dicerage wrote: How do you guys counter a ""standard"" 2k guard army?
By which I mean like 60 inf, 6 commanders, 20 scions w plasma, 4 arty, 3 tanks, mortars, and 4-5 light vehicles
I just melt away under that firepower, much of which is hard to target
I don't think we actually struggle that much against other shooting armies any more. Especially not Guard ever since the Scion nerfs. Oh, and the Conscript nerfs. Sometimes, Guard would just win by parking so Conscripts on an objective that you don't have enough time to kill them all.
There are three components to countering ranged that competitive AdMech armies utilize:
1) Scouts and your screen force them to foot slog or ride in transports to get close to your gun line.
2a) Dragoons are great for stopping transports and opening them up like tin cans. At the very least, they force them to disembark to shoot.
2b) Custodes just mow down infantry with their Bolters, and their lances are pretty versatile, though they don't hit nearly as hard as Dragoon lances.
3) Dakkabots and your own artillery just flat-out win trades because you have a better reroll, stronger guns, and repairs. Just make sure any lascannon/missile teams are taken out first; they are low-hanging fruit for Phosphor Blasters.
But can you fit that much stuff into 2000 points of Guard? I mean, the infantry in your rough list alone is close to 1000 points.
Just some classic admech of kastelans, neutron lasers and dragoons seem to work real well for me against guard. Use your kastelans to obliterate screens and heavy weapon teams since they're basically god-tier at that. Dragoons to counter charge their forward units and then move on to the backline, neutrons to melt their tank commanders/pask. One group of infiltrators is good so you're forcing a certain type of backfield deployment (or if he doesn't correct, just drop in and charge basilisks) and by turn 2 or 3 they should be able to drop in, shoot some stragglers and tie up tanks.
My experience with guard based screens has shied me away from putting guardsmen on the table to support admech. If you get dawn of war, and you go second, then your opponent can deepstrike within 18" of your dakkabots if you don't have scouts. Your deployment zone is 12" deep. Guardsmen push the deepstrike back to 9" from the line. The dakkabots have about a 3" deep base. That means 18" deeptrike. That is within threat for tau deepstrike, obliterators, and possibly a cheesy pile in from a 3d6 deepstrike threat (bloodletters / goatmen). Rangers and vanguard similarly put you in an auto lose situation if you go second a thin deployment zone.
Scout marines can deploy in a way to push those threats to 27". And everyone runs anti-screen shooting now, so basic gaurdsmen just don't do the job they used to do. And of course this makes the pricier and less flexible admech infantry even worse. The assumption in competitive is now that your screen will melt. So distance becomes the only thing protecting your dakkabots.
The idea with incorporating celestine and the shield captains is to provide somethign that can heroically intervene and charge the stuff that eats the scouts before the threat hits the dakkabots. EDIT: dragoons could also do this job. However, I kept having bad experiences with terrain, and moving enormous bases in/through formation, and piling in, and flamer overwatches, and smites, and primarchs just obliterating my dragoons, and having no native rerolls to charge, and shooting that ignores modifiers. Shield captains and celestine also suffer from the durability problems, but they FLY.
Wulfey wrote: My experience with guard based screens has shied me away from putting guardsmen on the table to support admech. If you get dawn of war, and you go second, then your opponent can deepstrike within 18" of your dakkabots if you don't have scouts. Your deployment zone is 12" deep. Guardsmen push the deepstrike back to 9" from the line. The dakkabots have about a 3" deep base. That means 18" deeptrike. That is within threat for tau deepstrike, obliterators, and possibly a cheesy pile in from a 3d6 deepstrike threat (bloodletters / goatmen). Rangers and vanguard similarly put you in an auto lose situation if you go second a thin deployment zone.
Scout marines can deploy in a way to push those threats to 27". And everyone runs anti-screen shooting now, so basic gaurdsmen just don't do the job they used to do. And of course this makes the pricier and less flexible admech infantry even worse. The assumption in competitive is now that your screen will melt. So distance becomes the only thing protecting your dakkabots.
The idea with incorporating celestine and the shield captains is to provide somethign that can heroically intervene and charge the stuff that eats the scouts because the threat hits the dakkabots.
Yeah I feel this. Hangup of scouts is the expensive marine HQ. Do you use Scouts in mixed Imperial detachments? Maybe a Primaris Psyker HQ?
axisofentropy wrote: Yeah I feel this. Hangup of scouts is the expensive marine HQ. Do you use Scouts in mixed Imperial detachments? Maybe a Primaris Psyker HQ?
Yeah. Company Commander and Primaris Psyker. The Scouts should not be expected to kill anything, just buy as much time as possible. Knives and Bolt Pistols, charge vehicles and such.
Wulfey wrote: My experience with guard based screens has shied me away from putting guardsmen on the table to support admech. If you get dawn of war, and you go second, then your opponent can deepstrike within 18" of your dakkabots if you don't have scouts. Your deployment zone is 12" deep. Guardsmen push the deepstrike back to 9" from the line. The dakkabots have about a 3" deep base. That means 18" deeptrike. That is within threat for tau deepstrike, obliterators, and possibly a cheesy pile in from a 3d6 deepstrike threat (bloodletters / goatmen). Rangers and vanguard similarly put you in an auto lose situation if you go second a thin deployment zone.
Scout marines can deploy in a way to push those threats to 27". And everyone runs anti-screen shooting now, so basic gaurdsmen just don't do the job they used to do. And of course this makes the pricier and less flexible admech infantry even worse. The assumption in competitive is now that your screen will melt. So distance becomes the only thing protecting your dakkabots.
The idea with incorporating celestine and the shield captains is to provide somethign that can heroically intervene and charge the stuff that eats the scouts because the threat hits the dakkabots.
Yeah I feel this. Hangup of scouts is the expensive marine HQ. Do you use Scouts in mixed Imperial detachments? Maybe a Primaris Psyker HQ?
Well some of those HQ dudes for Marines ain't too bad for the investment. Only specific builds will ever contribute anything though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well some of those HQ dudes for Marines ain't too bad for the investment. Only specific builds will ever contribute anything though.
I think the problem is that they're force multipliers for adeptus astartes, so if you only have 15 scouts it's not worth the investment. But for the people running scouts, do you ever throw a heavy bolter on one of the units for access to the hellfire shells stratagem?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well some of those HQ dudes for Marines ain't too bad for the investment. Only specific builds will ever contribute anything though.
I think the problem is that they're force multipliers for adeptus astartes, so if you only have 15 scouts it's not worth the investment. But for the people running scouts, do you ever throw a heavy bolter on one of the units for access to the hellfire shells stratagem?
Scout marines made a lot of appearances in the top imperium LVO lists. Pretty much every one had them. I saw zero heavy bolters. Storm bolters yes, because 2 points for another bolter shot is a good deal. The problem is that all space marine HQs are taxes in a majority admech list (except for slamguinius, who can carry his weight if given the CPs needed to deal damage). And if you don't take 2 space marine HQs, then you aren't getting the strategems.
Scout marines made a lot of appearances in the top imperium LVO lists. Pretty much every one had them. I saw zero heavy bolters. Storm bolters yes, because 2 points for another bolter shot is a good deal. The problem is that all space marine HQs are taxes in a majority admech list (except for slamguinius, who can carry his weight if given the CPs needed to deal damage). And if you don't take 2 space marine HQs, then you aren't getting the strategems.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. The storm bolter upgrade seems really worth it though.
I don't even think Scouts should have Bolters. We aren't using them to hold objectives or anything. We're deploying them at the edge of the enemy deployment then charging them into anything that tries to leave it. Knives are the ideal weapon for this. Shotguns are a close second.
Folks, GW pushed their FAQ back to bring in more info. Go submit your emails to 40kfaq@gwplc.com and hope we can persuade them to bring the points down on our awful units.
I already sent mine in focusing on that specific concept, since that seems like an easy errata piece to include. Ruststalkers and Kataphrons desperately need to come down in price to be remotely useful.
I am not wanting to be forced into soup to make this army work.
And on an aside, I finally picked up the clippers and started actually working on some models for this army again... foolishly. We'll see how long that drive lasts. It is just a few characters and one last Robot. We shall see.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Folks, GW pushed their FAQ back to bring in more info. Go submit your emails to 40kfaq@gwplc.com and hope we can persuade them to bring the points down on our awful units.
I already sent mine in focusing on that specific concept, since that seems like an easy errata piece to include. Ruststalkers and Kataphrons desperately need to come down in price to be remotely useful.
I am not wanting to be forced into soup to make this army work.
And on an aside, I finally picked up the clippers and started actually working on some models for this army again... foolishly. We'll see how long that drive lasts. It is just a few characters and one last Robot. We shall see.
Yeah, I did that as well. Just remember to be clear and polite folks, really doubt raged induced texts (whether legitimate rage or not) is going to help anybody. Speaking of building models, I just finished assembling my armiger knights, say what you will about their stats but the kit itself is absolutely fantastic. A breeze to buil and magnetise and really cool looking.
Wow. This makes me really dislike the model seeing a proper size comparison. Glad I didn't get any and likely won't. These aren't Knights, they are just armored Dragoons with arms and I think that would have made them a way cooler release.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: They are a Lord of War? Well, they will be overpriced then. GW has no idea how to handle point costs on the "big" stuff (see: Knights).
That's what I'm afraid of. The box is weird though, someone over at bolter and chainsword calculated the necrons to be worth around 500points (I don't know necrons and this is obviously pre-codex so not exactly ironclad numbers) but Admech is 195 minimum sans knights (125 for a base TPD and 70 for 10 rangers, stock) but considering they're showing them with an transuranic arquebus, an arc rifle and a guy with a phosphor blast pistol they're actually 227 points. (+25,+4,+3 respectively). So unless the knights are like 135points each how is this box balanced pointwise?
They don't do balanced box sets, so that isn't something I would factor in. Unless they really are cheap and just terrible - which their weapon load out makes me think they will be.
They even use the points values pre-Chapter Approved in the booklet, so I suppose that was done before Chapter Approved was designed. And the transuranic Arquebus costs only 14 in the booklet (which I like).
Anyway, I sent a mail to GWS to check for the reason and what to do with it :p
GW has dug themselves into a terrible hole in the points thing. The problem is that they tend to point out these units based on their datasheet stats. If you look at a cultist, it is junk for 4-5 points. But if you take 40 of them, give them veterans of the long war, if you spend 2CP to regen 30 of them, then they worth wayyyyy more than 4-5 points. 8 point poxwalkers get up to custodes levels of damage with all their auras and trees.
Sicarians ... 16ppm ... it really does swing 3 times as hard and is about 3 times as tough as one 5 point cultist. So if you just look at the data sheet, it kinda makes sense. But if you look at adepticon, just lol. Cultists stomp over everything in the game. And 7 point goatguys can 8" deepstrike charge, hit on 2s, and fight twice for 2cp. One sicarian is twice as strong and 50% tougher than a goat guy, but again, once you actually factor in the rest of the codex it isn't even close.
GW would have to make sicarians 10 points to be comparable to just the 7 point goat guys in a tournament list (ie, list written to win). But that would be baffling if you just look at the datasheets.
Wulfey wrote: GW has dug themselves into a terrible hole in the points thing. The problem is that they tend to point out these units based on their datasheet stats. If you look at a cultist, it is junk for 4-5 points. But if you take 40 of them, give them veterans of the long war, if you spend 2CP to regen 30 of them, then they worth wayyyyy more than 4-5 points. 8 point poxwalkers get up to custodes levels of damage with all their auras and trees.
Sicarians ... 16ppm ... it really does swing 3 times as hard and is about 3 times as tough as one 5 point cultist. So if you just look at the data sheet, it kinda makes sense. But if you look at adepticon, just lol. Cultists stomp over everything in the game. And 7 point goatguys can 8" deepstrike charge, hit on 2s, and fight twice for 2cp. One sicarian is twice as strong and 50% tougher than a goat guy, but again, once you actually factor in the rest of the codex it isn't even close.
GW would have to make sicarians 10 points to be comparable to just the 7 point goat guys in a tournament list (ie, list written to win). But that would be baffling if you just look at the datasheets.
Bingo. Internal balance is nice, but if you don't factor in context, you wind up with this scenario.
ph34r wrote: I'd assume it's a flexibility thing, how often do scouts actually end up in combat?
Might be worth it though. Melee scouts are cool.
Depends on who you're fighting. If it's Orks, for example, you pretty much always make it into CC.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Folks, GW pushed their FAQ back to bring in more info. Go submit your emails to 40kfaq@gwplc.com and hope we can persuade them to bring the points down on our awful units.
I already sent mine in focusing on that specific concept, since that seems like an easy errata piece to include. Ruststalkers and Kataphrons desperately need to come down in price to be remotely useful.
I am not wanting to be forced into soup to make this army work.
And on an aside, I finally picked up the clippers and started actually working on some models for this army again... foolishly. We'll see how long that drive lasts. It is just a few characters and one last Robot. We shall see.
I already very politely begged them to drop the points on Servitors and Kataphrons as well as give both Sicarians another attack.
Yeah the forgebane box brings up some interesting points, I wonder if thats what we're in for. As a guy who wants to make a primarily skitarii based army seeing some of the points was odd. I really wish we had some sort of skitarii HQ option. It's really annoying to see the codex mention over and over that some become competent enough to run their own formations yet we're not given any option for an HQ.
Forgebane is an odd duck in general. For example, the necron cryptek guys have shields. In the book it mentioned they can potentially reflect shots back into the units that fired them in the lore much like the kastellan robots have. Yet if you read the rules there's nothing like that to be found. So yeah I have no idea what GW was doing there. At least the armiger's are slick. Yeah they suck for the points but hopefully they'll come down when the knight codex drops. Wonder what the bonus for making your knights mechanicus will be? It specifically mentions that your knights can be imperium aligned or mechancus aligned, independent of their house, which is another keyword. So apparently knights will run off not one, but two separate keywords for abilities and presumably strategems.
Random question for you guys who have been playing for a while, what do you do with all your dominuses? I've got 5 at this point and after building two I really don't know what to do with the other 3. Should I just use them as bits to make enginseers? People are having a hard enough time selling them at $10 a model so it hardly seems worth it to throw them on eBay.
Forgebane is an odd duck in general. For example, the necron cryptek guys have shields. In the book it mentioned they can potentially reflect shots back into the units that fired them in the lore much like the kastellan robots have. Yet if you read the rules there's nothing like that to be found. So yeah I have no idea what GW was doing there.
Well, Lychguard used to have an ability ala the Kastellans back in 5th, maybe 6th as well... not sure. It was dropped at some point, though they did give them a stratagem to do it in the latest codex.
RAW, you can use the Scryerskull to shoot with one unit every phase. Definitely not RAI though.
It isn't even RAW, it is a twisting of the language at best. I thought the community had come to that obvious conclusion a while ago. WAAC players, I tell ya!
RAW, you can use the Scryerskull to shoot with one unit every phase. Definitely not RAI though.
It isn't even RAW, it is a twisting of the language at best. I thought the community had come to that obvious conclusion a while ago. WAAC players, I tell ya!
Disagree, it is very much RAW to be able to shoot with one unit every phase.
Now, I would say this is not RAI at all.
It would be incredibly scummy to try to use this stratagem in that way, and it ruins the spirit of the game.
RAW, you can use the Scryerskull to shoot with one unit every phase. Definitely not RAI though.
It isn't even RAW, it is a twisting of the language at best. I thought the community had come to that obvious conclusion a while ago. WAAC players, I tell ya!
Disagree, it is very much RAW to be able to shoot with one unit every phase.
Now, I would say this is not RAI at all.
It would be incredibly scummy to try to use this stratagem in that way, and it ruins the spirit of the game.
I think this one was missed in the proofreads.
It indicates that you can shoot without said penalties, not that you can make a shooting attack. But oh well, no one would dare pull this nonsense so it is a moot issue anyhow.
It indicates that you can shoot without said penalties
and can be activated at any time not just during your shooting phase, Per the logic of the sentence structure it IS RAW that you can use it to fire out of sequence.
Random question for you guys who have been playing for a while, what do you do with all your dominuses? I've got 5 at this point and after building two I really don't know what to do with the other 3. Should I just use them as bits to make enginseers? People are having a hard enough time selling them at $10 a model so it hardly seems worth it to throw them on eBay.
Go to Ebay, buy up all the ones you can, run them as Allarus terminators for a counts as Myrmidon army
It indicates that you can shoot without said penalties
and can be activated at any time not just during your shooting phase, Per the logic of the sentence structure it IS RAW that you can use it to fire out of sequence.
/quote]
It does not say make a shooting attack, so no. If you can make an out-of-sequence attack, you can use this to remove the listed limitations though.
I think the lack of real discussion at this point really tells the truth about where we're at right now.
By real discussion I mean the admech codex has been mostly figured out, there's very little flexibility in what we can run overall. Something doesn't feel right.
Played a game against Tau recently. They are more mobile and do shooting better than we do, and the sept I fought against punished so incredibly hard against melee that things went very poorly that game.
Dragoons couldn't get into CC (overwatch would annihilate them), couldn't hit the Ghostkeels due to a -3 to hit, drones took all anti-tank rounds from my neutronagers that were directed towards riptide/broadsides, drones were just barely out of range of the rest of my shooting.
Was able to take out the drones on turn 2 but by then enough damage had been done.
Well admech is a fairly small codex honestly, there's not really a ton of options like something in the lines of Imperial Guard or space Marines. Heck there are several slots where we have what, 2 options? That doesn't give a lot of room for flexibility or different tactics
LexOdin9 wrote: I think the lack of real discussion at this point really tells the truth about where we're at right now.
By real discussion I mean the admech codex has been mostly figured out, there's very little flexibility in what we can run overall. Something doesn't feel right.
Played a game against Tau recently. They are more mobile and do shooting better than we do, and the sept I fought against punished so incredibly hard against melee that things went very poorly that game.
Dragoons couldn't get into CC (overwatch would annihilate them), couldn't hit the Ghostkeels due to a -3 to hit, drones took all anti-tank rounds from my neutronagers that were directed towards riptide/broadsides, drones were just barely out of range of the rest of my shooting.
Was able to take out the drones on turn 2 but by then enough damage had been done.
Glad to see I'm not the only one traumatised by the Tau, but sad to see we're always traumatised by Tau. I hate these Drones and I'm glad they at least got a price hike. Nothing more frustrating than wasting Neutron Laser shots because there's no other targets.
I wonder if the FAQ will change anything related to us, and especially to Soups. I'm just waiting for the Drukhari codex at this point, it is at least designed with some love, compared to ours :(
I also feel a little burned out tbh. I'm just looking really hard for a working army concept, but I struggle to come up with something besides Cawl + Bots. Do we hinder ourselves by limiting us to the Cawlstar or is there really nothing else which is remotely usable as a concept?!
Depends on your meta, if it's not net lists you have to think a little before picking anything in your lists because of all the handicaps we have. If there's no SM armies in your LGS you'll never need to go power swords on the Infiltrators for example. I recommend trying an Imperial Bastion with 20 Fulgurites, just exit when something gets too close, charge and behold the mayhem. I don't believe anything can survive this. Then your opponent is stuck with 20 3++ 5+++ murdermachines for the rest of the game. I only tried 10 Fulgurites but I'd love to try double that, they were a nightmare for 6 rounds after killing a Daemon Prince.
Dragoons are always fun too, with the Infiltration from Stygies they can be really nasty. Infiltrating 20 Fulgurites should be doable too, just hope really hard the opponent doesn't seize initiative on a 6, otherwise if you don't get first turn you just deploy them somewhere safer or dare rolling a 6.
I'm going to run my Admech with a little Dark Angels detachment in my next games, made of a Captain with jet pack, combi-melta and Thunder Hammer, 3 bolter Inceptors, and 2x3 Ravenwing bikes. Still have to write the list though, but it'll help me with mobility while still packing a punch.
LexOdin9 wrote: I think the lack of real discussion at this point really tells the truth about where we're at right now.
By real discussion I mean the admech codex has been mostly figured out, there's very little flexibility in what we can run overall. Something doesn't feel right.
Played a game against Tau recently. They are more mobile and do shooting better than we do, and the sept I fought against punished so incredibly hard against melee that things went very poorly that game.
Dragoons couldn't get into CC (overwatch would annihilate them), couldn't hit the Ghostkeels due to a -3 to hit, drones took all anti-tank rounds from my neutronagers that were directed towards riptide/broadsides, drones were just barely out of range of the rest of my shooting.
Was able to take out the drones on turn 2 but by then enough damage had been done.
Yeah, I'd also be real distraught I my opponent was cheating and gave the Ghostkeels an additional -1 to hit. No but seriously, how would they get to -3? The suit itself is -1 and the drones are -1 and those two things stack but the drones don't give more than -1 if there's more than one of them.
So I tried out running shield captains, scouts, and greyfax as support for my MARS gunline. I was practicing against my buddy who ran 3x stormsurges, 1x fusion coldstar, and 1x yvara. The problem I ran in to was that shield captains are not that fast at 14" and can't do celestine's 24" threat bubble. Greyfax enabled me to get 1 good charge off by shutting down the overwatch of something, but that wasn't nearly enough. Also, my 5 dakkabot volley hitting on 5s rerolling because i had to move was not enough to kill a stormsurge. And icarus ... I just don't get it. I ran 2 of them. They couldn't wound the stormsurges. My mortars got more wounds. I would run icarus more if that big missle of their ever actually did some wounds. By turn 3 my army was tabled.
The big conclusion is that I should be focusing on either shooting, xor melee. And that greyfax / shield captains can't do celestine's job of doing an impossible charge from 24" away. I am going to go with something like this at my RT in two weeks.
CADIA spearhead 1x Commander, 1x basilisk, 4x mortar teams
My impression with Icarus is that they are there to cover the weaknesses of things like neutron lasers and leman russe's. Whenever I run admech it's as an ally to IG and so the admech bs3 Icarus is what I need more than anything, especially against hard counters like eldar, alpha legion, and Raven guard fliers. I wouldn't ever run purely Icarus, I always felt they were there to cover a weakness, not be a mainstay weapon. I'm still figuring out the ratio I like but it's at least 25% of my "heavy hitter" units if that makes sense.
So many competitive units these days have the fly keyword so they'll usually pull their weight, and even in a scenario with no fliers they normally hit on 4's which isn't too terrible. Mixed with dakkastellans, neutron lasers, leman russe's, and other units I'd where I feel they shine. It also sounds like you were a bit unlucky if you were finding your mortars more consistent than autocannons and Icarus missles.
LexOdin9 wrote: I think the lack of real discussion at this point really tells the truth about where we're at right now.
By real discussion I mean the admech codex has been mostly figured out, there's very little flexibility in what we can run overall. Something doesn't feel right.
Played a game against Tau recently. They are more mobile and do shooting better than we do, and the sept I fought against punished so incredibly hard against melee that things went very poorly that game.
Dragoons couldn't get into CC (overwatch would annihilate them), couldn't hit the Ghostkeels due to a -3 to hit, drones took all anti-tank rounds from my neutronagers that were directed towards riptide/broadsides, drones were just barely out of range of the rest of my shooting.
Was able to take out the drones on turn 2 but by then enough damage had been done.
I think a lot of us are waiting for the FAQ to drop.
Tau don't do shooting better than we do, but they definitely got way better force multipliers now that they have a codex. I mean, our codex honestly does not feel that different than our index, given how crappy our relics are. And I feel like a broken record, but Icarus Icarus Icarus. I don't bother with Neutron any more. Basilisks, Dragoons, and Dakkabots can all fill the anti-tank role. (Though if I can be frank, after much thought, I am not even sure if I can justify having Crawlers at all when I can squeeze another 2 Dragoons and a Kastelan in.
lash92 wrote: If the stupid rocket only could be S8 ...
Yes. This drives me crazy. It takes a 4 to wound all the decent targets for that kind of high quality firepower ... but we have no way to improve wound rolls.
I think the reality here is that GW never planned to make this a full army range. We were always meant to just be "allies". And that is where we are at, really. If you run pure Codex AdMech, enjoy getting wrecked by most of the more "modern" Codices.
I'm currently planning a jump to Xenos. Probably 'Crons - that way I get at least some killer robot action on the table. But even then, I am not sure. But AdMech has been packed in foam and put in my closet. On the off chance I want a "fun" game, maybe.
If the FAQ at all addresses our issues, I will be pleasantly surprised.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I think the reality here is that GW never planned to make this a full army range. We were always meant to just be "allies". And that is where we are at, really. If you run pure Codex AdMech, enjoy getting wrecked by most of the more "modern" Codices.
I'm currently planning a jump to Xenos. Probably 'Crons - that way I get at least some killer robot action on the table. But even then, I am not sure. But AdMech has been packed in foam and put in my closet. On the off chance I want a "fun" game, maybe.
If the FAQ at all addresses our issues, I will be pleasantly surprised.
Well, if that was their goal in the design, then they succeeded. My armies always have Imperial Guardsmen, Basilisks, and Scout Marines.
HERETIC! (Actually, not sure if you'll find much better in Necrons.)
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I think the reality here is that GW never planned to make this a full army range. We were always meant to just be "allies". And that is where we are at, really. If you run pure Codex AdMech, enjoy getting wrecked by most of the more "modern" Codices.
Disagree. We were never planned to be a single army. We were likely concepted around the idea of Skitarii and Cult being separate, but they went back on that. That, in my opinion, is why the book feels so...blah. So haphazard. It's like they knew they needed to do all of that stuff ASAP but they didn't want to put the effort into it since they knew they'd go back later and revise them significantly.
I'm currently planning a jump to Xenos. Probably 'Crons - that way I get at least some killer robot action on the table. But even then, I am not sure. But AdMech has been packed in foam and put in my closet. On the off chance I want a "fun" game, maybe.
If the FAQ at all addresses our issues, I will be pleasantly surprised.
I'm sorry that you feel this way and even if you or I don't agree over whether or not Skitarii and Cult should be separate factions, it's always a shame to see someone put away an army they were enthusiastic over.
At least Necrons look to be pretty dang nice right now.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yeah Reece kind of put the FAQ down as "probably very little point changes"
We don't need point changes. We need mobility. A lot more of it.
We also need people like Reece to not be involved with any way, shape, or form of how the game is 'meant to be played'.
We really could see a big, significant fix with regards to mobility if Skitarii keyworded models got given back their ability to make a move immediately after Deployment.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yeah Reece kind of put the FAQ down as "probably very little point changes"
We don't need point changes. We need mobility. A lot more of it.
We also need people like Reece to not be involved with any way, shape, or form of how the game is 'meant to be played'.
We really could see a big, significant fix with regards to mobility if Skitarii keyworded models got given back their ability to make a move immediately after Deployment.
Yeah heaven forbid his armies do badly. Hey though, at least he doesn't design missions to his preferred play style, right?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yeah Reece kind of put the FAQ down as "probably very little point changes"
We don't need point changes. We need mobility. A lot more of it.
It still blows my mind that the faction that makes vehicles for the entire imperium has probably the least vehicles out of any codex in the Imperium, and can't even take the vehicles they churn out by the millions for other armies.
Even weirder still, they insist that a lot of the Skitarii walk everywhere. Why on Earth is the most industrialized faction WALKING TO BATTLE? At the very least they should've been given an option like Inquisition got where they can hitch a ride in other vehicles. Granted admech stealing soace marine drop pods was really fething stupid, you can't tell me they wouldn't use something like a rhino, land raider, or chimera.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yeah Reece kind of put the FAQ down as "probably very little point changes"
We don't need point changes. We need mobility. A lot more of it.
It still blows my mind that the faction that makes vehicles for the entire imperium has probably the least vehicles out of any codex in the Imperium, and can't even take the vehicles they churn out by the millions for other armies.
Even weirder still, they insist that a lot of the Skitarii walk everywhere. Why on Earth is the most industrialized faction WALKING TO BATTLE? At the very least they should've been given an option like Inquisition got where they can hitch a ride in other vehicles. Granted admech stealing soace marine drop pods was really fething stupid, you can't tell me they wouldn't use something like a rhino, land raider, or chimera.
It's less "they insist on it" with regards to the Skitarii; it's just the way it is...but yeah.
I would have liked it to be a Martian "trait" for them(No access to transports but they get to move an extra 3" or something like that for the Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard) or for them to steal a page from Infinity's old rules and give the Onagers a 'carry-all' rule where up to 5 Rangers and Vanguard can grab on and ride into battle with them.
Things I've learned this game:
- If you can keep the enemy from shooting at your electropriests via LOS-blocking terrain until you're ready to charge in, their effectiveness is off the charts. Especially if they have a Graia save on top of their 3++ 5+++.
- Celestine isn't dependable as a source of damage, but she is EXCELLENT at locking up shooting units (so long as they can't just disengage and shoot COUGH COUGH TAU).
- Onagers never make their points back, no matter what loadout I give them (except for the cognis hvy stubber, which always makes its points back turn 1)
- Always try to keep 2-4 cp available for emergencies. If I had kept 2 at the ready, I could have avoided losing 6 electro-priests to morale and this would have basically won me the game.
- Splitting the dakkabots seems really good when you're not running Mars. The dakkabots vastly outperform the neutronagers in point efficiency against their respective intended targets.
- Monitor Malevolus is so incredibly finnicky, like extreme bipolar disorder it'll get me 3CP one turn and then nothing for 4 more turns.
- Sometimes it will take 4 turns for your arquebus rangers to finally get a character kill, even against measly guardsmen.
lash92 wrote: So if you really wanted to take a knight, what would your choice be? I'm thinking about a Crusader or Cerastus Archon...
I would consider the Knight Styrix. It has a 4++ in shooting that goes up to a 3++ with the stratagem. Very tanky. It shoots ok and can still threaten in close combat where it can get a 4++ with the stratagem.
lash92 wrote: So if you really wanted to take a knight, what would your choice be? I'm thinking about a Crusader or Cerastus Archon...
I like the cheapest Crusader option. You want the 36" double shootiness, but you don't want to commit any more points into it than you need to or else you're going to get blown out by a good alpha strike.
lash92 wrote: So if you really wanted to take a knight, what would your choice be? I'm thinking about a Crusader or Cerastus Archon...
I'd probably hold off for a while with both the Imperial Knight codex and the new Castellan coming out soon. I have a suspicion that neither will make them competitve but seeing as we most likely get that codex within a month the prudent course of action would be to wait
Actually, I think Knights will always be competitive in a narrow band. This is because their army's strategy is mostly dominant and non-interactive.
Anyhow, assuming the new codex is good, I wonder if we would eventually want to try to integrate a Knight into our armies. In the spirit of innovation, I tried to remake my old Index list:
Spoiler:
Imperium Battalion Detachment - 242
HQ - 77 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Suzuteo wrote: Actually, I think Knights will always be competitive in a narrow band. This is because their army's strategy is mostly dominant and non-interactive.
Anyhow, assuming the new codex is good, I wonder if we would eventually want to try to integrate a Knight into our armies. In the spirit of innovation, I tried to remake my old Index list:
Spoiler:
Imperium Battalion Detachment - 242
HQ - 77 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Total: 1998 points 7 Command Points
So one Enginseer for the repair. A strong mechanized melee component and a decent 48" scoot-and-shoot component.
EDIT: Actually, might have gone overboard with the Crawlers. Haha.
Something like that could work, but it seems a bit light on anti-horde in my opinion. Switching out 2 onagers for 2 kastelans (and maybe another dragoon or some chaff) would benefit that list I think.
Things I've learned this game:
- If you can keep the enemy from shooting at your electropriests via LOS-blocking terrain until you're ready to charge in, their effectiveness is off the charts. Especially if they have a Graia save on top of their 3++ 5+++.
- Celestine isn't dependable as a source of damage, but she is EXCELLENT at locking up shooting units (so long as they can't just disengage and shoot COUGH COUGH TAU).
- Onagers never make their points back, no matter what loadout I give them (except for the cognis hvy stubber, which always makes its points back turn 1)
- Always try to keep 2-4 cp available for emergencies. If I had kept 2 at the ready, I could have avoided losing 6 electro-priests to morale and this would have basically won me the game.
- Splitting the dakkabots seems really good when you're not running Mars. The dakkabots vastly outperform the neutronagers in point efficiency against their respective intended targets.
- Monitor Malevolus is so incredibly finnicky, like extreme bipolar disorder it'll get me 3CP one turn and then nothing for 4 more turns.
- Sometimes it will take 4 turns for your arquebus rangers to finally get a character kill, even against measly guardsmen.
Fulgurite Electro-Priests are pure bonkers, the day we have a transport to at least fit 10 inside we'll probably climb a few places in the tier-ranking of codices. I've done the maths on their average damage output and they're of of the best if I remember well. Just having them kill something important is the trick. Even against screens they're not really stuck, on the charge it's 1d6 for each model in the squad and 6s give a mortal wound, and then they swing their staffs of doom and the screen just evaporates.
The Eradicator Onager is not very good, it's too versatile. It may be good against elite infantry/monsters at long/mid range but your Kastelan Robots are here just for that. And to use the discount Neutron Laser at 12" you have to be at 12", which is generally the distance you DON'T want to be in. Neutronagers are still my favourites, I'll never forget the time it killed an Exocrine in one shot. Or the 12 wounds that Baneblade suffered. Sometimes they fail to hurt something but it's not the fault of the model, it's your dice after all. Half the time I used Wrath of Mars on my Robots they rolled a grand total of five 6s to Wound max, so, so much for luck, eh.
The Eradicator Onager is unfortunately not good. I would stick with the neutron for anti-tanks and icarus if you fight a lot of xenos with skimmers and flyers.
I'm really starting to lean towards just using the icarus onager instead of the neutronager mainly because my regional meta (Houston region) sees a lot of players that run lists the neutronager does not perform well against.
I'd say the neutronager would only be useful in somewhere between 1/3 to 1/4 of the games I play, both competitively and casually. I've been running up against a lot of armies that run hordes and the high wound models will tend to have 3++ or 4++.
On rare occasions, I'll fight a list with 2-3 transports which will make me wish I had a neutronager in my list. But I run dragoons and this solves my problem, for the most part.
Suzuteo wrote: Actually, I think Knights will always be competitive in a narrow band. This is because their army's strategy is mostly dominant and non-interactive.
Anyhow, assuming the new codex is good, I wonder if we would eventually want to try to integrate a Knight into our armies. In the spirit of innovation, I tried to remake my old Index list:
Spoiler:
Imperium Battalion Detachment - 242
HQ - 77 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Fulg. damage is actually not great against hordes(aka screen, which is what you'll fight with slow melee units). 2 attacks for 16pts DEDICATED melee unit is gak
LexOdin9 wrote: I'm really starting to lean towards just using the icarus onager instead of the neutronager mainly because my regional meta (Houston region) sees a lot of players that run lists the neutronager does not perform well against.
I'd say the neutronager would only be useful in somewhere between 1/3 to 1/4 of the games I play, both competitively and casually. I've been running up against a lot of armies that run hordes and the high wound models will tend to have 3++ or 4++.
On rare occasions, I'll fight a list with 2-3 transports which will make me wish I had a neutronager in my list. But I run dragoons and this solves my problem, for the most part.
Yeah, that's always a meta-related decision. Like I don't apply 70% of the advices here just because my meta sees precisely ONE guard player, one person that uses Infantry Squads I mean. Screens in my meta are just deep-strike deniers that die as soon as I need to deep-strike.
I think Neutron is the choice if you actually expect to play against some really tank/Knight-heavy armies. But in TAC tourneys, you want Icarus for their ability to decimate Assault Marines and Tau Battlesuits and Drones. They are comparable against high-toughness flyers, superior if they have an invulnerable save.
But like I said, getting harder to justify Crawlers when you can replace them with more Dragoons and Robots.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulg. damage is actually not great against hordes(aka screen, which is what you'll fight with slow melee units). 2 attacks for 16pts DEDICATED melee unit is gak
Are they best used in support of taking out vehicles ie with dragoons to nuke tanks? I’m thinking of getting some but can’t quite work out how to fit them points wise. Would probably want to take a full squad of 20.
My main issue is they seem fragile on their way into combat
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulg. damage is actually not great against hordes(aka screen, which is what you'll fight with slow melee units). 2 attacks for 16pts DEDICATED melee unit is gak
Are they best used in support of taking out vehicles ie with dragoons to nuke tanks? I’m thinking of getting some but can’t quite work out how to fit them points wise. Would probably want to take a full squad of 20.
My main issue is they seem fragile on their way into combat
If you can't get them to shoot immediately, they're not going to be around for long. At least Dragoons are pretty tough to remove for their cost.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulg. damage is actually not great against hordes(aka screen, which is what you'll fight with slow melee units). 2 attacks for 16pts DEDICATED melee unit is gak
I brought mine to one day of playing. That time they made their charge against some orcs, killed 5, and then were annihilated. That made me super sour on them. They did good work against high point high invul save harlequins though.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulg. damage is actually not great against hordes(aka screen, which is what you'll fight with slow melee units). 2 attacks for 16pts DEDICATED melee unit is gak
I brought mine to one day of playing. That time they made their charge against some orcs, killed 5, and then were annihilated. That made me super sour on them. They did good work against high point high invul save harlequins though.
Yeah, well, that's tough luck. My two Robots killed 3 Brimstones with 36 shots once, doesn't mean Robots are awful. 5 Fulgurites slay 4,44 wounds of MEQ on average, without counting the Voltagheist field charge. You kill 22,2 wounds of GEQ (+- 25 if it's a unit of let's say 20 you're charging) with 20 Fulgurites, then you have them amped up and ready to wreck havoc for a few turns. Of course they shouldn't be killing the screens, but they can kill anything. It get's trickier when you start using stupid 5+ FnP from DG but who doesn't have difficulties against DG ?
I am not saying that fulgurites can't do damage. But that they have a super specific target that they have trouble hitting. They are not point efficient against chaff units without invuls. And they are not point efficient against high T models due to only being str 6. Rather, they come into their own against T3-5 models that have invulnerable saves that would otherwise protect them. The big reason why never see any competitive play is that no one can find a way to put them into place to actually hit those T3-5 models with invul saves. Any other target results in a points efficiency mismatch where you have heaps of points of fulgurites killing not enough points in chaff or not enough points in space marines (that can shoot them as they close in) or not actually killing a T7/11W rhino.
Yuuuuup. Exactly. How do you expect to hit anything elite with a 6'' move melee unit? Because against a good player you'll hit the screen first - which is not what you want to hit. The turn after, even if you somehow power up, you will die to anti-horde shooting as easy as a tactical marine except you pay 16 pts...
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yuuuuup. Exactly. How do you expect to hit anything elite with a 6'' move melee unit? Because against a good player you'll hit the screen first - which is not what you want to hit. The turn after, even if you somehow power up, you will die to anti-horde shooting as easy as a tactical marine except you pay 16 pts...
Yeah, well hopefully they are a good distraction carnifex as your opponent wastes a lot of shots removing those hideous models off the board haha. No but seriously, what you've stated is the exact reason I've never gotten them. They would need a flying transport to become really effective and that probably won't happen anytime soon. (Or if we get that sweet forgeworld drill-transport, just something that has the ability to swoop past screens)
You guys missed the part where they name drop an Admech transport flyer in Forgebane:
"Within the space of an hour, Ologostion had summoned the Quadrus pattern drop-lander Bellerophobos to the site - not for the purposes of personnel removal, as was its primary duty, but so that the donwdraft of its pivoting engine . . ."
So does anyone got a good idea for mixing custodes with AdMech? I am honest here the more I test Custodes, the less AdMech units are in my list. I used the Custodes part of InControl (Battalion with a unit of 5 bikes) and some necesseraay stuff (Patrol with Culexus, Callidus, Scout Squad, Kurlovs Aquila idiot) paired with some Dragoons in a game and that seems good enough (tabled me some chaos).
What is it that AdMech bring to the table that Custodes need or vice versa? a lot of people say they complement each other very well but to this point I have my issues with finding those synergies despite of "together we smash face if we get first turn and the opponent has no way of blocking us".
I've been saying they need a transport or Stygies' infiltration stratagem to work, it doesn't change the fact they're one of the best units we have. And shoot the screen, that's like the only thing we do well in this army.
Iago40k wrote: So does anyone got a good idea for mixing custodes with AdMech? I am honest here the more I test Custodes, the less AdMech units are in my list. I used the Custodes part of InControl (Battalion with a unit of 5 bikes) and some necesseraay stuff (Patrol with Culexus, Callidus, Scout Squad, Kurlovs Aquila idiot) paired with some Dragoons in a game and that seems good enough (tabled me some chaos).
What is it that AdMech bring to the table that Custodes need or vice versa? a lot of people say they complement each other very well but to this point I have my issues with finding those synergies despite of "together we smash face if we get first turn and the opponent has no way of blocking us".
Custodes Bikes have anti-horde shooting and great counter-charging. They are strong, but I can't say I'm a fan. AdMech already has some of the best anti-infantry options in the meta, and one of the hardest hitting counter-chargers to boot. The advantage of the Custodes over Dragoons is their flying, which lets them reach other flying enemies, but we also have Icarus Crawlers to shoot at flyers.
Iago40k wrote: So does anyone got a good idea for mixing custodes with AdMech? I am honest here the more I test Custodes, the less AdMech units are in my list. I used the Custodes part of InControl (Battalion with a unit of 5 bikes) and some necesseraay stuff (Patrol with Culexus, Callidus, Scout Squad, Kurlovs Aquila idiot) paired with some Dragoons in a game and that seems good enough (tabled me some chaos).
What is it that AdMech bring to the table that Custodes need or vice versa? a lot of people say they complement each other very well but to this point I have my issues with finding those synergies despite of "together we smash face if we get first turn and the opponent has no way of blocking us".
Custodes Bikes have anti-horde shooting and great counter-charging. They are strong, but I can't say I'm a fan. AdMech already has some of the best anti-infantry options in the meta, and one of the hardest hitting counter-chargers to boot. The advantage of the Custodes over Dragoons is their flying, which lets them reach other flying enemies, but we also have Icarus Crawlers to shoot at flyers.
True but I am on a path which leads to "no gunline" stuff atm. I dont see the point of having Dunecrawlers sitting in the back while I can take a shield captaion with the salvo launcher and get him shooting flyers and charging stuff.
your point is pretty valid though, Mechanicus and Custodes are pretty good at doing the same thing...though I am way in favor of some flying bikes than rooted Kastellans...plus I mean we know that AdMech doesnt win any tournaments so we gotta think about what to add to them.
rvd1ofakind wrote: All you need is to paint the rim of the base differently. Red and black/grey. Simple enough
Well I started making Stygies paint scheme by replacing my red with black, and giving them red armour panels instead of metallic ones.
It works out OK, so it's distinguishable and if ever I play mono FW, then it is easy enough for my opponent to remember it anyway
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrMoustaffa wrote: To be fair I think we're going to see a "Tau commander" style Nerf for many armies. It's not just Have tyrants after all, we see tons of daemon princes, IG commanders/tank commanders, Shield Captains, etc. Etc. A lot of busted stuff can come from the HQ sections so I wouldn't be surprised if GW just decides to lay down a blanket rule for "commander" style units where they are limited to one per detachment. If this does happen, it's going to be rough on admech if the dominus is included. All the starter sets come with dominuses and I haven't seen any bundles that come with the new techpriest, which means I'll need to buy a few at base cost.
I kind of need to figure out what I'm going to do with all these spare dominus anyways. I've got probably 5 by now and the two I've already built are magnetized. I guess I'll just use them to convert up techpriests and as a source of bitz.
That and the Enginseer is a stupid unit, can't repaire knights better than TPD and I play mono mech (including Questor as they're in my codex) so no need for some dude to fix ASTRA MILITARUM ffs...
They need to give us a better HQ if they want to limit TPD's, but as it's almost all we have I don't think they will.
Pff I'm done trying to win against Death Guard. It's always extremely close games and that's fun, but boy do they ever die ? It's ridiculous, I had an Icarus Onager shoot at a Blight Drone for 5 turns before it finally died. Typhus just never died, even after I burnt 2 CP so that my Captain with TH could swing a second time after dying, and don't get me started on their Terminators.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So in my case (no astra militarum), 3x scout, commander(aquila and strategist), primaris psyker?
+ inquisitor, 3 assassins (or just add 2 assassins to the previous detachment)
+ big admech detachment (or even 2)
ps: what's the official company commander miniature
Yeah, I do two Commanders, but if they're doing an HQ nerf, I will do a Primaris Psyker instead.
I made my own Company Commander with a Skitarius Prime. All my Infantry/Vanguard use Anvil Gothic Void Torsos + Short Greatcoat Legs, so they stand out.
Suzuteo do you live in America? The timings of your posts seem to be on an almost European timeline. Was halfheartedly trying to figure out if your up unbelievably early or ridiculously late haha
I live in the US, in the SF Bay Area. It's near where Wulfey is, actually. Very competitive scene.
I just work weird hours because I have to deal with remote workers in Japan and China.
Ah that explains it then. I’ve been once on holiday when I used to live in Houston. On our way out of the states we visited friends in Cali and did a bit of traveling. Seemed a nice place. The tv show mythbusters is filmed in your neck of the woods too iirc.
Ideasweasel wrote: How many dragoons are currently in your collection rvd?
Only 3 Dragoons, 3 Balistarii (which I can use as 6 of either because no one cares)
Nice, love the models. A big stack of them can be hammer blow to the wallet though. I wonder how tricky they would
be to magnetise but like you say. Nobody minds if you proxy them as either
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone get any replies from the team regarding the emails for FAQ ideas?
Pretty sure they never reply to stuff like that being "we'll pass it on".
I asked them to give the Atropos the Questor mechanicus keyword at least, as it is a MECHANICUM CERASTUS KNIGHT ATROPOS ffs
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulg. damage is actually not great against hordes(aka screen, which is what you'll fight with slow melee units). 2 attacks for 16pts DEDICATED melee unit is gak
Don't forget that if you have 6's to wound (ok, does not happen a lot), this is D3 mortal wounds and therefore D3 dead models (if they are screen models with 1W).
Iago40k wrote: So does anyone got a good idea for mixing custodes with AdMech? I am honest here the more I test Custodes, the less AdMech units are in my list. I used the Custodes part of InControl (Battalion with a unit of 5 bikes) and some necesseraay stuff (Patrol with Culexus, Callidus, Scout Squad, Kurlovs Aquila idiot) paired with some Dragoons in a game and that seems good enough (tabled me some chaos).
What is it that AdMech bring to the table that Custodes need or vice versa? a lot of people say they complement each other very well but to this point I have my issues with finding those synergies despite of "together we smash face if we get first turn and the opponent has no way of blocking us".
I tried a test game with 3x shield captains. You can check my post in the previous pages. In summary, they seem good in theory but suffer because they dilute the purpose of you army. In a competitive setting, you need to have an army that is good at something to defeat an opponent. 3x shield captains + some shooting admech results in a diluted army that wants to fight a TAC army in the middle of the board. But if your opponent has an all shooting army, then your fighters aren't going to do anything and your shooters will be outshot. The other problem is that the shield captains really want a lot of CP fed into them to get powered up, but so does admech. I am eating my words here, but just go dragoons over shield captains. Dragoons need less CP to work and take less points to bring a wider screen. They threaten fewer things than the shield captains, but they are also less of an investment for a comparable mid board melee punch. I think the shield captains make more sense with guard, where you have more CPs and less good places to spend them. After trying the shield captains I am going back to celestine. Celestine is much more flexible and is a better threat against that critical character that thinks they are safe.
Iago40k wrote: So does anyone got a good idea for mixing custodes with AdMech? I am honest here the more I test Custodes, the less AdMech units are in my list. I used the Custodes part of InControl (Battalion with a unit of 5 bikes) and some necesseraay stuff (Patrol with Culexus, Callidus, Scout Squad, Kurlovs Aquila idiot) paired with some Dragoons in a game and that seems good enough (tabled me some chaos).
What is it that AdMech bring to the table that Custodes need or vice versa? a lot of people say they complement each other very well but to this point I have my issues with finding those synergies despite of "together we smash face if we get first turn and the opponent has no way of blocking us".
I tried a test game with 3x shield captains. You can check my post in the previous pages. In summary, they seem good in theory but suffer because they dilute the purpose of you army. In a competitive setting, you need to have an army that is good at something to defeat an opponent. 3x shield captains + some shooting admech results in a diluted army that wants to fight a TAC army in the middle of the board. But if your opponent has an all shooting army, then your fighters aren't going to do anything and your shooters will be outshot. The other problem is that the shield captains really want a lot of CP fed into them to get powered up, but so does admech. I am eating my words here, but just go dragoons over shield captains. Dragoons need less CP to work and take less points to bring a wider screen. They threaten fewer things than the shield captains, but they are also less of an investment for a comparable mid board melee punch. I think the shield captains make more sense with guard, where you have more CPs and less good places to spend them. After trying the shield captains I am going back to celestine. Celestine is much more flexible and is a better threat against that critical character that thinks they are safe.
So what’s the latest wulfey tournament build?
Cawl
5xDakabots
2x Icarus
Celestine
Company Comander
3x scouts
And then 500ish points of dragoons and other goodness?
Has anyone played much with a larger emphasis on Ad Mech infantry? In mid-teir games (non tournament lists), they tend to compete with Robots for MVP.
- 5 man Ranger squads with Arc Rifle to allow me to buffer the charges while survivors have range to all contribute regardless of location
- 5 man Ranger squads with Arquebus on the flanks help make life difficult for deep strikers, while again being able to contribute to the battle with their long range
- 10 man Vanguard squads are great counter punch, and a cheap way to lay down lots of fire power and only 85pts lost (inc. Tether) if each one gets wiped.
Of course I use Stygies to help with their durability.
Iago40k wrote: So does anyone got a good idea for mixing custodes with AdMech? I am honest here the more I test Custodes, the less AdMech units are in my list. I used the Custodes part of InControl (Battalion with a unit of 5 bikes) and some necesseraay stuff (Patrol with Culexus, Callidus, Scout Squad, Kurlovs Aquila idiot) paired with some Dragoons in a game and that seems good enough (tabled me some chaos). What is it that AdMech bring to the table that Custodes need or vice versa? a lot of people say they complement each other very well but to this point I have my issues with finding those synergies despite of "together we smash face if we get first turn and the opponent has no way of blocking us".
I tried a test game with 3x shield captains. You can check my post in the previous pages. In summary, they seem good in theory but suffer because they dilute the purpose of you army. In a competitive setting, you need to have an army that is good at something to defeat an opponent. 3x shield captains + some shooting admech results in a diluted army that wants to fight a TAC army in the middle of the board. But if your opponent has an all shooting army, then your fighters aren't going to do anything and your shooters will be outshot. The other problem is that the shield captains really want a lot of CP fed into them to get powered up, but so does admech. I am eating my words here, but just go dragoons over shield captains. Dragoons need less CP to work and take less points to bring a wider screen. They threaten fewer things than the shield captains, but they are also less of an investment for a comparable mid board melee punch. I think the shield captains make more sense with guard, where you have more CPs and less good places to spend them. After trying the shield captains I am going back to celestine. Celestine is much more flexible and is a better threat against that critical character that thinks they are safe.
So what’s the latest wulfey tournament build?
Cawl 5xDakabots 2x Icarus
Celestine Company Comander 3x scouts
And then 500ish points of dragoons and other goodness?
Yes. Run the army as a shooting army and keep celestine to win objectives and cripple characters. Putting 500-600 points of fighting unit points into melee doesn't make sense if I am already 1000 points deep in shooting.
EDIT: this is what my current plan to paint up for next weekend is:
MARS Cawl + 1x5 dakkabot + 1x icarus + 2x neutron
SOUP Celestine + Commander + 3x5 scouts
CADIA Commander + 2x basilisk + 4x mortar team
It is very similar to the list I took to the last tournament, but with scouts in place of guardsmen (who didn't save me from deepstrikers), and one of the basilisks turned into more mortars and another robot. If the mortars aren't nerfed, they are all stars. 33 points for 10 something bolter shots is great. I have found that they do a good job of covering up the rear of the deployment zone and cheaply denying a rear deepstrike. They give up kill points like crazy ... but so do guardsmen. This list also nicely has just the right amount of commanders(2) to mortars(4) to maximize the reroll order. I am hoping my opponents fear the icarus and target it for destruction first. Spacing is kinda tough on Cawl, but he just needs to be base 6" base to the onagers, which just need those giant pie plates in range. I am basically dead against an unnerfed flyrant list, an unnerfed nick nanavati 220 models list, a true super heavy 3 baneblade / 3 stormsurge lists that gets the first turn, or a tier 1 craftworld/ynnari list from LVO. But I would take this list over anything else out there.
Yeah. Focus on shooting really well. The limitations are: 1) Has to fit inside the Cawl bubble. 2) Have to have enough infantry to screen the enemy away from your shooting units.
The rest go into stuff to buy you time to shoot and that can grab objectives. Dragoons, Celestine, etc. I personally prefer a 4x Dragoon unit still.
Oh, another thing you can do is bring along indirect fire, such as Mortars and Basilisks. The former is good anti-horde, much better than Custodes. The latter is an all-rounder, good for vehicles and characters too. If you Soup them, consider bringing a Master of Ordnance.
My area has a unique problem where one guy has a Scorpion that will 1-shot a squad of robots pretty much regardless of how many are in the unit.
Elysian BS 3+ got the 7->13 point plasma nerf.
Special weapon squads are BS 4+, so they are the exact same as they have been the entire time. They're really good. 51 points, 3 plasma guns, deep striking and fixing all your problems.
ph34r wrote: My area has a unique problem where one guy has a Scorpion that will 1-shot a squad of robots pretty much regardless of how many are in the unit.
Elysian BS 3+ got the 7->13 point plasma nerf.
Special weapon squads are BS 4+, so they are the exact same as they have been the entire time. They're really good. 51 points, 3 plasma guns, deep striking and fixing all your problems.
A Scorpion? As in the Eldar Super-heavy tank? That's so random...
Finally got around to completing a larger amount of Elysian infantry so I can field them in full force.
I like your list, especially the Elysians are a nice replacement for Scions after they got hit with the nerf bat from GW.
Against which armies did you play?
Iago40k wrote: So does anyone got a good idea for mixing custodes with AdMech? I am honest here the more I test Custodes, the less AdMech units are in my list. I used the Custodes part of InControl (Battalion with a unit of 5 bikes) and some necesseraay stuff (Patrol with Culexus, Callidus, Scout Squad, Kurlovs Aquila idiot) paired with some Dragoons in a game and that seems good enough (tabled me some chaos).
What is it that AdMech bring to the table that Custodes need or vice versa? a lot of people say they complement each other very well but to this point I have my issues with finding those synergies despite of "together we smash face if we get first turn and the opponent has no way of blocking us".
I tried a test game with 3x shield captains. You can check my post in the previous pages. In summary, they seem good in theory but suffer because they dilute the purpose of you army. In a competitive setting, you need to have an army that is good at something to defeat an opponent. 3x shield captains + some shooting admech results in a diluted army that wants to fight a TAC army in the middle of the board. But if your opponent has an all shooting army, then your fighters aren't going to do anything and your shooters will be outshot. The other problem is that the shield captains really want a lot of CP fed into them to get powered up, but so does admech. I am eating my words here, but just go dragoons over shield captains. Dragoons need less CP to work and take less points to bring a wider screen. They threaten fewer things than the shield captains, but they are also less of an investment for a comparable mid board melee punch. I think the shield captains make more sense with guard, where you have more CPs and less good places to spend them. After trying the shield captains I am going back to celestine. Celestine is much more flexible and is a better threat against that critical character that thinks they are safe.
So what’s the latest wulfey tournament build?
Cawl
5xDakabots
2x Icarus
Celestine
Company Comander
3x scouts
And then 500ish points of dragoons and other goodness?
Yes. Run the army as a shooting army and keep celestine to win objectives and cripple characters. Putting 500-600 points of fighting unit points into melee doesn't make sense if I am already 1000 points deep in shooting.
EDIT: this is what my current plan to paint up for next weekend is:
MARS
Cawl + 1x5 dakkabot + 1x icarus + 2x neutron
SOUP
Celestine + Commander + 3x5 scouts
CADIA
Commander + 2x basilisk + 4x mortar team
It is very similar to the list I took to the last tournament, but with scouts in place of guardsmen (who didn't save me from deepstrikers), and one of the basilisks turned into more mortars and another robot. If the mortars aren't nerfed, they are all stars. 33 points for 10 something bolter shots is great. I have found that they do a good job of covering up the rear of the deployment zone and cheaply denying a rear deepstrike. They give up kill points like crazy ... but so do guardsmen. This list also nicely has just the right amount of commanders(2) to mortars(4) to maximize the reroll order. I am hoping my opponents fear the icarus and target it for destruction first. Spacing is kinda tough on Cawl, but he just needs to be base 6" base to the onagers, which just need those giant pie plates in range. I am basically dead against an unnerfed flyrant list, an unnerfed nick nanavati 220 models list, a true super heavy 3 baneblade / 3 stormsurge lists that gets the first turn, or a tier 1 craftworld/ynnari list from LVO. But I would take this list over anything else out there.
So you are dead to basically every good list out there? oO Plus I dont see any chance versus Imperial Soup with a blood Angels main. I dont know why you love basilisks and mortars that much. I used mortars for my last tournament instead of one dragoon and in every match I would have liked the Dragoon better. Their output is basically null (since everything you are shooting at is usually in cover). They are good for denying board though, no doubt. Basilisks are cool but too expensive for what they do and easy to shot down with close combat. I won several games against flyrant spam, ynnari and poxspam but there is always the feeling that AdMech is less helpful than other things. I tried an outrider custodes with 3x3 bikes and 1 captain plus -1 hit banner combined with 3 eradication onagers (Stygies) running upfield against the new tau with 3 Riptides. Damn those Onagers are tough, he got one down on one wound after 1 round of shooting^^
Anyway, enough with storytime. I just have the feeling that "bringing more dakka" is just not the way to play AdMech atm (maybe its just my local meta), so I am going for all stygies detachment (not totally sure what to put in though^^), custodes biker goodness and a patrol with company commander, 1 unit of scouts and that culexus assassin that is in every list i take.
PiñaColada wrote: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-SE/Terrax-Pattern-Termite-Assault-Drill-2018?_requestid=1165716
Look, we're not even getting rules for this. Even though they're releasing 40k rules. Like what the hell?
PiñaColada wrote: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-SE/Terrax-Pattern-Termite-Assault-Drill-2018?_requestid=1165716
Look, we're not even getting rules for this. Even though they're releasing 40k rules. Like what the hell?
Wait so space marines can use but not Admech?
'
This is beyond unfathomable. My only thought p[rocess behind our exclusion is they haven't figured out a way to balance a transport with the rest of our army list yet....or that our melee options would be too good if they had a transport.
The preview images even show it being used by Mechanicum :|
Ordana wrote: Has someone informed FW that there is an AdMech army in 40k?
Maybe they don't know.
I understand you're half-joking but I actually did. I suggested this (as part of a longer mail) "Seems to me that it should be able to transport skiitari rangers, vanguards, electropriests, servitors, enginseers and the cybernetica datasmith for 1 slot each and the sicarians & tech priest dominus take 2 slots each."
I'll post whatever (if any) reply they give in regards to admech rules for it
Seriously - it's Mechanicus for Horus Heresy, but Astartes for 40k???!? This is not an accident, this kind of snub takes real effort!!! And yet MORE gak for Space Marines!!!!!
Ordana wrote: Has someone informed FW that there is an AdMech army in 40k? Maybe they don't know.
I understand you're half-joking but I actually did. I suggested this (as part of a longer mail) "Seems to me that it should be able to transport skiitari rangers, vanguards, electropriests, servitors, enginseers and the cybernetica datasmith for 1 slot each and the sicarians & tech priest dominus take 2 slots each." I'll post whatever (if any) reply they give in regards to admech rules for it
Who did you contact? I'm sure if enough of us are creating a stink about it, there would be some impetus to look into it rather than just one person asking as part of a larger email Edit: Sent email to forgeworld@gwplc.com also asking for clarification
I wrote to forgeworld@gwplc.com, and they did actually very promptly get back to me. But it was a non-answer basically where they don't answer individual rules questions (which this wasn't really I'd argue) but if the question is frequent enough it gets sent to their rules department. So, by all means, write to them.
PiñaColada wrote: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-SE/Terrax-Pattern-Termite-Assault-Drill-2018?_requestid=1165716
Look, we're not even getting rules for this. Even though they're releasing 40k rules. Like what the hell?
Wait so space marines can use but not Admech?
'
This is beyond unfathomable. My only thought p[rocess behind our exclusion is they haven't figured out a way to balance a transport with the rest of our army list yet....or that our melee options would be too good if they had a transport.
The preview images even show it being used by Mechanicum :|
Mechanicum != Mechanicus.
Anyways with that out of the way, we've known for a long time that Fires of Cyraxus whenever it actually manifests is supposed to have rules for Heresy era stuff for Mechanicus.
Mechanicum != Mechanicus.
Anyways with that out of the way, we've known for a long time that Fires of Cyraxus whenever it actually manifests is supposed to have rules for Heresy era stuff for Mechanicus.
Sure, but you had to assume that was because making up 40k rules for those models is time consuming. It's already done in this case, so why not just include admech? The mythical fires of cyraxus shouldn't be some alibi for why they don't include us in my opinion. Who knows if that thing is even getting released in 8th? I'm just bitter I guess
And Horus Heresy Astartes != 40k Astartes. Yet there there 40k Astartes are - somehow with access to their buddies vehicles, while the Ad Mech have what, lost theirs behind a sofa over the 10,000 years?
And Horus Heresy Astartes != 40k Astartes. Yet there there 40k Astartes are - somehow with access to their buddies vehicles, while the Ad Mech have what, lost theirs behind a sofa over the 10,000 years?
The Adeptus Mechanicus is about as similar to the Mechanicum as the Imperial Guard is to the Imperial Army.
And Horus Heresy Astartes != 40k Astartes. Yet there there 40k Astartes are - somehow with access to their buddies vehicles, while the Ad Mech have what, lost theirs behind a sofa over the 10,000 years?
The Adeptus Mechanicus is about as similar to the Mechanicum as the Imperial Guard is to the Imperial Army.
But that is kinda my point. Sure, the organisation of Imperial Army changed and splintered, but you don't now see the Inquisition with exclusive rights to use Valkyries, or Astartes as the only force that you'd see a Baneblade. However, this is exactly what we're seeing here.
And Horus Heresy Astartes != 40k Astartes. Yet there there 40k Astartes are - somehow with access to their buddies vehicles, while the Ad Mech have what, lost theirs behind a sofa over the 10,000 years?
This made me chuckle. Somewhere deep within the bowels of an industrial plant. An Archmagos of considerable stature is rummaging between the cushions of a rather fetching red leather 3 piece corner suite. He discovers 2 warn batteries, a pen lid, 18p of assorted change and a 400 ton Baneblade
I think he means fall. Since we're currently in financial Q3.
I meant which year.. I'm not salty about that never arriving FoC, at all. (I get where you're coming from though, I just never assume people are talking about fiscal years unless specifically stated)
Also, I find it funny that Forgeworld has an automated reply for the Custodes rules they put out recently:
Many thanks for contacting Forgeworld Customer Service, we aim reply to your email within 24 hours, however, during busy times it may take a little longer. If your enquiry is urgent please call us on 0115 900 4995 during the hours below:-
Monday to Friday - 10.00am to 6.00pm (GMT)
If you are emailing regarding the new experimental rules for Custodes, thanks for taking the time to send us some feedback. We are collating all of this information and passing it along to the Forgeworld studio who will not be able to reply directly, but keep an eye out for updates on the community site!
Also if you go by uk govt quarters it’s q1. Standardquarters its 2 and various governments it’s whatever. When talking releases q1 is Jan feb and March q2 is April may June ect ect
gendoikari87 wrote: Also if you go by uk govt quarters it’s q1. Standardquarters its 2 and various governments it’s whatever. When talking releases q1 is Jan feb and March q2 is April may June ect ect
I think we're getting off track, you meant in the July-September range, correct? Do you have any source for that or some such? I'd love for it to come out sooner but I'll take Q3
Thanks man. Surely we're getting admech rules for the "Terrax Pattern Termite Assault Drill" in Fires of Cyraxus (whenever it comes out, Q3 or not) I like the model but I'd never buy it if I can't use it
Questions to FW Customer services are looking to receive this stock response:
"Thanks for the email and for your feedback regarding the New Termite Assault drill.
We hope all of our customers will be able to enjoy this model for many different reasons, as it stands, our studio writers have issued the digital version of the rules on our web store and are taking in all feedback for future improvements and for potential FAQ updates. These include the available factions for the Horus Heresy universe and available factions for the Warhammer 40,000 universe.
I am afraid at this time we have no further information on additional rules being produced though we are aware our design team are in the process of designing a new campaign book said to feature the Adeptus Mechanicus, Red Scorpions and T'au. We may see new and updated rules in this publications.
I will forward a copy of your feedback and any questions on to our rules team to review."
Guys,
Q1 Jan Feb Mar
Q2 April May June
Q3 July August Sept
Q4 October Nov Dec
that's the consumer quarters businesses use when talking about release dates.
Everything else is based on tax calendars from around the world so without specifying a region if you want to be technically correct on FISCAL year, today is Q1, Q2, Q3, AND Q4.....
It would be fitting that the admech codex was released in September and that Fires of Cyraxus is (coincidentally) going to be released in or near September as well, being the month occupying my birthday.
A question originating from Cohort 0001 0100 0110.
I currently have a list that is 1200pts of Mars (later going to split them between Mars and Stygies VIII, with WYSIWYG):
Spoiler:
1 Belisarius Cawl
1 Tech-Priest Dominus
5 Rangers with 2 Arquebi and an Omnispex
5 Vanguard with 2 Plasma Calivers
3 Plasma Destroyers
1 Datasmith
1 Dragoon
2 Dakka Kastelans
1 Icarus Dunecrawler
(total 1191)
Now I'm playing with a couple of buddies and this is part of a Tale of Painters ever increasing points.
I can still tweak my list so I could for example:
1. Remove 1 Arquebus, Omnispex, Onager Stubber and 1 Plasma Caliver to add 5 Vanguard with 1 Arc Rifle (Alpha with Arc maul and radium carbine (1189 points)
2. Remove the Datasmith and the Omnispex to get that Vanguard squad (1189 points, Onager keeps his Stubber)
I could then add 5 Infiltrators to go to 1300 (which is the next goal).
Alternatively I could also put in 5 Fulgurites instead (and then 30 points left for some things I dropped)
This remaining 30 points combined with the next increase (+200) would then get me an Armiger with Stubber though.
But this Armiger is not really worth it right?
As a rule of thumb, Skitarii with Crawlers dominate low point counts because of low CP. But as the point count goes up, Cawl becomes viable, infantry become more expendable screeners, and Robots + Dragoons become more important.
Also, in case anyone wants some ideas for HQs, I finally got around to making an AdMech flavored Primaris Psyker for the April painting challenge:
I combined a Warhammer Fantasy Hurricanum Acolyte with a Skitarii Ranger Alpha. I used the Acolyte body and pieces of the staff with the Alpha head, Radium Pistol, and pieces of the Arc Maul. I also took a spare servo skull and cut out the aquila from the Kastelan Robots chest panel for the embellishments.
Suzuteo wrote: As a rule of thumb, Skitarii with Crawlers dominate low point counts because of low CP. But as the point count goes up, Cawl becomes viable, infantry become more expendable screeners, and Robots + Dragoons become more important.
Also, in case anyone wants some ideas for HQs, I finally got around to making an AdMech flavored Primaris Psyker for the April painting challenge:
I combined a Warhammer Fantasy Hurricanum Acolyte with a Skitarii Ranger Alpha. I used the Acolyte body and pieces of the staff with the Alpha head, Radium Pistol, and pieces of the Arc Maul. I also took a spare servo skull and cut out the aquila from the Kastelan Robots chest panel for the embellishments.
Looking good so far. Proportional and looks a good fit. Well done
18 bolter like barrels + icarus->neutron upgrade - 4x cognis, 2x storm bolter on scouts, 2x storm bolter on basilisks 10.5 average mortar shots from a mortar team
Thinking of dropping a mortar team to buy more bolters equivalents on my models.
so played a game against new crons on saturday. had a outrider detachment of custodes with 3x3 bikes, a -1 banner dude and 1 shield captain, a patrol detachment with company commander and aquila (warlord), scouts and a culexus. ADMech (Stygies) was a TPD, TPE, 4x vanguards and 3 Onagers (Icarus, Icarus, Neutron). Yeah he through the towel after round 2 (he had 2x10 immortals with tesla/gauss, 6 wraiths, 10 Lychguard, obiron and other overlords and the oh so nice destroyer drop with 6 of those dudes). Those bikers are so insanely good that I will stick to them and try to find a way to make them work with AdMech. Yet still no idea how since the soup Patrol detachment is very important as well and I am basically left with up to 738 points (578 if I take another shield captain). Gotta wait for that bloody FAQ but I think I found what I was looking for...well, if I find something from AdMech that would be great to accompany those bikes
18 bolter like barrels + icarus->neutron upgrade - 4x cognis, 2x storm bolter on scouts, 2x storm bolter on basilisks
10.5 average mortar shots from a mortar team
Thinking of dropping a mortar team to buy more bolters equivalents on my models.
I think you got it right with the Mortars. Much more efficient against GEQs. Your Kastelan Robots and Icarus Crawlers can handle the same stuff Bolters would.
18 bolter like barrels + icarus->neutron upgrade - 4x cognis, 2x storm bolter on scouts, 2x storm bolter on basilisks
10.5 average mortar shots from a mortar team
Thinking of dropping a mortar team to buy more bolters equivalents on my models.
I think you got it right with the Mortars. Much more efficient against GEQs. Your Kastelan Robots and Icarus Crawlers can handle the same stuff Bolters would.
I'd probably stick with the mortars as well, but if you know that there's not going to be alot of terrain there then it might not be worth it
18 bolter like barrels + icarus->neutron upgrade - 4x cognis, 2x storm bolter on scouts, 2x storm bolter on basilisks
10.5 average mortar shots from a mortar team
Thinking of dropping a mortar team to buy more bolters equivalents on my models.
I think you got it right with the Mortars. Much more efficient against GEQs. Your Kastelan Robots and Icarus Crawlers can handle the same stuff Bolters would.
indirect fire is great and all but personally I am not a fan of mortars because of their random shots. I rather have a reliable number but anything between 3 and 18 on a 4+ bf unit.
18 bolter like barrels + icarus->neutron upgrade - 4x cognis, 2x storm bolter on scouts, 2x storm bolter on basilisks
10.5 average mortar shots from a mortar team
Thinking of dropping a mortar team to buy more bolters equivalents on my models.
... that image made my heart break... It barely qualifies as Admech at this point, its just.... soup. :(
18 bolter like barrels + icarus->neutron upgrade - 4x cognis, 2x storm bolter on scouts, 2x storm bolter on basilisks
10.5 average mortar shots from a mortar team
Thinking of dropping a mortar team to buy more bolters equivalents on my models.
I think you got it right with the Mortars. Much more efficient against GEQs. Your Kastelan Robots and Icarus Crawlers can handle the same stuff Bolters would.
indirect fire is great and all but personally I am not a fan of mortars because of their random shots. I rather have a reliable number but anything between 3 and 18 on a 4+ bf unit.
The averages will even out. Mortars are good fora reason.
So, I've been pouring over AdMech resources kind of hoping I missed something, but is there any way to let Onager Dunecrawlers re-roll to Wound rolls? I don't use this army much, but I do take them with my Adeptus Custodes so my knowledge of the whole Codex isn't perfect.
I recently went to a tournament where my to Wound rolls were just terrible. All 1's and 2's. While I recognize that is bad luck, I'd like to take something to help mitigate that bad luck if it strikes again.
Basically, I'm hoping there's something the Codex or an Errata I missed.
18 bolter like barrels + icarus->neutron upgrade - 4x cognis, 2x storm bolter on scouts, 2x storm bolter on basilisks 10.5 average mortar shots from a mortar team
Thinking of dropping a mortar team to buy more bolters equivalents on my models.
... that image made my heart break... It barely qualifies as Admech at this point, its just.... soup. :(
It is 1200/2000 points of admech. And I have been a soup player for years. Every IMPERIUM list that wins more than it loses at an ITC tournament is SOUP. And they get soupier the higher you go up the ladder. You know most the codex is junk and nonviable in a tournament setting.
EDIT: to the above, yes, that we cannot reroll to wound is a big reason why admech is not viable solo. On top of having no 'scout' deployment and having half the codex being fluff only (sicarians, kataphrons, ballistari, fist kastelons, TPD).
em_en_oh_pee wrote: On an aside, ITC is awful. Why do people play that stuff?
I am a huge fan. Book missions are comically unbalanced and without the detachment restrictions that ITC brings all kinds of even soupier horrors would be viable. Bad stuff that shouldn't exist. And I love the ITC Missions. I like the fixed objective marker locations. I like picking my secondary missions based on my opponent. I like the bestcoastpairings app that does the brackets and matching. I like how ITC gets me hard games against players that play to win and finish a game. I never feel bad smacking down an ITC player, they came to do the same to me. I like how I don't have to have friends that do this stuff to get a game. That last one is the biggest right there. I would play beerhammer ... if any of my beer buddies actually had the patience to paint models. Also, I even like the competitive mindset that goes along with tournament prep. It clarifies your thinking about the game. I am not thinking, "boy, how can I go easy on my buddy and also push some dopey narrative about my totally by the book cliche army?" No. I am thinking, what can I do to deal with the obviously superior armies out there with the pieces I have from my shelf. I have tried playing in the small store communities, and the guys there were snooty and mean. ITC guys know the game is rough and play it rough, just like chess club back in high school.
EDIT: what this comes down to is the basic challenge of 40k, how do 2 players have a fair game? Option 1 is both players are chums and list tailor into two armies that are roughly on par. Option 1 doesn't work if you don't know the other guy. Option 2 is both players play as hard as they can within the rules. Option 2 works with randoms. I need randoms ... so .... option 2 it is.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: On an aside, ITC is awful. Why do people play that stuff?
I am a huge fan. Book missions are comically unbalanced and without the detachment restrictions that ITC brings all kinds of even soupier horrors would be viable. Bad stuff that shouldn't exist. And I love the ITC Missions. I like the fixed objective marker locations. I like picking my secondary missions based on my opponent. I like the bestcoastpairings app that does the brackets and matching. I like how ITC gets me hard games against players that play to win and finish a game. I never feel bad smacking down an ITC player, they came to do the same to me. I like how I don't have to have friends that do this stuff to get a game. That last one is the biggest right there. I would play beerhammer ... if any of my beer buddies actually had the patience to paint models. Also, I even like the competitive mindset that goes along with tournament prep. It clarifies your thinking about the game. I am not thinking, "boy, how can I go easy on my buddy and also push some dopey narrative about my totally by the book cliche army?" No. I am thinking, what can I do to deal with the obviously superior armies out there with the pieces I have from my shelf. I have tried playing in the small store communities, and the guys there were snooty and mean. ITC guys know the game is rough and play it rough, just like chess club back in high school.
EDIT: what this comes down to is the basic challenge of 40k, how do 2 players have a fair game? Option 1 is both players are chums and list tailor into two armies that are roughly on par. Option 1 doesn't work if you don't know the other guy. Option 2 is both players play as hard as they can within the rules. Option 2 works with randoms. I need randoms ... so .... option 2 it is.
I guess I am spoiled with good TOs that never needed the ITC stuff to make fair, balanced and competitive games happen.
I like ITC because it sets expectations in a definitive manner. Both people know the rules, what they're playing, and more importantly, why. There's no pretense, no need for familiarity. Of course, if you do have friends or regulars to play against, the fluffy stuff can be more fun, but if it's a stranger, ITC is the way to go. I can plop into any random game store playing ITC games and be value-added right away.
So i dont know why, but somehow I seem to be attracted to the feeble and unloved (by GW) factions of 40k so after aquiring quite some number of GKs and Orks i could not resist the good ebay offers following the release of forgebane and snatched me up 2 techpriests and 20 rangers/vanguards.
Since i kinda like the style of admech and felt like they hit a nice middle ground between the Elite (GK) and Horde (Orks) that i already have they seemed to be a good fit.
I will take it fairly slow with my 3rd army so in the near future i will at most add 1-2 onagers to my new collection but the question im faced with now would be how to assemble my troops
i was thinking of running just 4x5 rangers - 3 of those barebones and maybe one squad with 2 arquebi (cant do more with the sprues) and maybe throw like an omnispex on them too
i would then fill up they points with some stuff from my GKs or my IK (Knight Errant) depending what level we play (mostly around 1500)
does this sound like a good idea for such a limited force or should i go for some vanguards (maybe with plasma ?)
in general i play in a semi-competitive lvl meaning my friends try to make their lists as optimised as possible BUT we dont really buy our models based on power so that optimization is limited to whatever selection of models people have.
Would really appreciate any advice people can give me
At lower points, Vanguard. At higher points, Rangers--maybe Vanguard if you have spare points. I recommend you build all of them as one type of unit so you can just counts-as them. My Skitarii are all Ranger heads on Anvil Industry bodies with Radium Carbines, and I have them count as Guardsmen, Vanguard, or Rangers depending on my need. (Just never mix them up.)
GKs are a decent complement to AdMech. Of course, this comes with the caveat that they are generally weak overall, but you seem to recognize that.
A single Knight is a better choice, since you can spam Rotate Ion Shields and even give it cover for a turn. A Warden or Crusader would definitely be better though. Any chance you have it magnetized?
Maybe hold off on buying a new knight kit for 2 weeks. That new super duper ultra dakka knight ... I want to believe. But boy that thing just screams "deep strike melta equivalents 18" away please". If you are new to admech, the start collecting box is a must. I say buy 3. You need 30 skitarii bodies if you want to play admech-admech, and the 3 onagers go in every single admech list. The TPDs ... build 1 and use the bits to convert up some enginseers out of the spare skitarii trooper kits. EDIT: a well magnetized Onager is the gift that keeps on giving. I love those things. Swapping between neutron, icarus, posing them, all good stuff. It requires drills, green stuff, and whatnot but totally worth it. Consider putting all the 'neutral' heads from the skitarii kits on the plasma. The neutral heads are the hoodless ones. They can pass as rangers or vanguard. The Arquebus can always be a ranger.
What Wulfey said, three start collecting boxes are great as a starting point. Remember to magnetise the onagers and use neutral heads on the special weapons you might have in either squad, my pasma guys all get the fancy heads since we don't have a skiitari prime anyways. As for the knights, holding off is a good idea but I'd also temper my expectations. They might turn out great with interesting synergies but they might very well not. I'm getting a Castellan for the sake of the model and more friendly games to run alongside my armigers but I'm also buying that model with the knowlegde that it might be 200 points overcosted in the end. Playing in tournaments is fun and all in my opinion but at least for me 40k has become a good excuse just to block out 5 hours every now and then to hang out with your buddies, at those times rule of cool plays a big part in my lists.
I am a ferocious kitbasher and really try to get mileage out of my bits.
I kept my Skitarii torsos and legs to make Secutarii; they are collecting dust now, and I really need to get around to repainting them.
I then bought a crapton of Anvil Industry Gothic Void Torsos (I prefer the plain back) and Short Greatcoat Legs. Also bought a ton of Radium Carbines. The result is $2 Skitarii Vanguard that can count as Rangers or Guardsmen. Every fifth one gets a Skitarii backpack and serves as an Alpha when I want them to. I also have Sergeants, Company Commanders, and recently, a Primaris Psyker made.
Iago40k wrote: so played a game against new crons on saturday. had a outrider detachment of custodes with 3x3 bikes, a -1 banner dude and 1 shield captain, a patrol detachment with company commander and aquila (warlord), scouts and a culexus. ADMech (Stygies) was a TPD, TPE, 4x vanguards and 3 Onagers (Icarus, Icarus, Neutron). Yeah he through the towel after round 2 (he had 2x10 immortals with tesla/gauss, 6 wraiths, 10 Lychguard, obiron and other overlords and the oh so nice destroyer drop with 6 of those dudes). Those bikers are so insanely good that I will stick to them and try to find a way to make them work with AdMech. Yet still no idea how since the soup Patrol detachment is very important as well and I am basically left with up to 738 points (578 if I take another shield captain). Gotta wait for that bloody FAQ but I think I found what I was looking for...well, if I find something from AdMech that would be great to accompany those bikes
What with a squad of Dragoons. Sure they don't fly, but are reasonable mobile and can handle tougher targets.
Question from a noob, looking at getting a force of Imperial Knights to run with my Krieg, do the Knights benefit from the Forgeworld traits found in the Adeptus Mechanicus forces? Also I'm wanting to run a decent amount of Rangers, is it better to MSU teams of 5 or squads of 10 if I want to run lots of Arquebus?
Iago40k wrote: so played a game against new crons on saturday. had a outrider detachment of custodes with 3x3 bikes, a -1 banner dude and 1 shield captain, a patrol detachment with company commander and aquila (warlord), scouts and a culexus. ADMech (Stygies) was a TPD, TPE, 4x vanguards and 3 Onagers (Icarus, Icarus, Neutron). Yeah he through the towel after round 2 (he had 2x10 immortals with tesla/gauss, 6 wraiths, 10 Lychguard, obiron and other overlords and the oh so nice destroyer drop with 6 of those dudes). Those bikers are so insanely good that I will stick to them and try to find a way to make them work with AdMech. Yet still no idea how since the soup Patrol detachment is very important as well and I am basically left with up to 738 points (578 if I take another shield captain). Gotta wait for that bloody FAQ but I think I found what I was looking for...well, if I find something from AdMech that would be great to accompany those bikes
What with a squad of Dragoons. Sure they don't fly, but are reasonable mobile and can handle tougher targets.
Yeah I love Dragoons and I would love to use them but they are very similar to vertus praetors sans the shooting. The problem is that they are walkers and with more and more terrain and runis on the battlefiled it gets tougher and tougher to use them efficiently. Plus I would like to have some anti-tank shooting and dunecrawlers are great for that, Balistarii are just too flimsy. I think I will give the Dragoons another try though just because theyve done so much for me^^
Maybe something like this
Spoiler:
Adeptus Custodes: Outrider Detachment - 1092 P
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Interceptor lance, Hurricane bolter, AURIC AQUILAS - - - > 160 P
Suzuteo wrote: I am a ferocious kitbasher and really try to get mileage out of my bits.
I kept my Skitarii torsos and legs to make Secutarii; they are collecting dust now, and I really need to get around to repainting them.
I then bought a crapton of Anvil Industry Gothic Void Torsos (I prefer the plain back) and Short Greatcoat Legs. Also bought a ton of Radium Carbines. The result is $2 Skitarii Vanguard that can count as Rangers or Guardsmen. Every fifth one gets a Skitarii backpack and serves as an Alpha when I want them to. I also have Sergeants, Company Commanders, and recently, a Primaris Psyker made.
I also strongly recommend the gothic void torsos. They look great with both the short and the long greatcoats. Here's my sergeants that I just finished:
*************** 1 FA ***************
4 Sydonian Dragoons, 4 x Taser lance - - - > 272 P
*************** 2 Heavy ***************
Onager Dunecrawlers, Icarus array - - - > 130 P
Onager Dunecrawlers, Icarus array - - - > 130 P
Arent you pretty light on serious high S weapons (except the Dragoons)?
ph34r wrote:
I also strongly recommend the gothic void torsos. They look great with both the short and the long greatcoats. Here's my sergeants that I just finished:
Suzuteo wrote: I am a ferocious kitbasher and really try to get mileage out of my bits.
I kept my Skitarii torsos and legs to make Secutarii; they are collecting dust now, and I really need to get around to repainting them.
I then bought a crapton of Anvil Industry Gothic Void Torsos (I prefer the plain back) and Short Greatcoat Legs. Also bought a ton of Radium Carbines. The result is $2 Skitarii Vanguard that can count as Rangers or Guardsmen. Every fifth one gets a Skitarii backpack and serves as an Alpha when I want them to. I also have Sergeants, Company Commanders, and recently, a Primaris Psyker made.
I also strongly recommend the gothic void torsos. They look great with both the short and the long greatcoats. Here's my sergeants that I just finished:
Spoiler:
Those models look ace! What did you use to make them. What are they representing?
*************** 1 FA ***************
4 Sydonian Dragoons, 4 x Taser lance - - - > 272 P
*************** 2 Heavy ***************
Onager Dunecrawlers, Icarus array - - - > 130 P
Onager Dunecrawlers, Icarus array - - - > 130 P
Arent you pretty light on serious high S weapons (except the Dragoons)?
yes, verys light on it, but that is not that big of a deal since the bikers and dragoons can drop/infiltrate and their are, atm of course, very few targets for which you need high strength since almost everything sans banehammer chassis have an invul save. Even with my usual tournament list I took no shooting over S6 because with dakkastelans and wrath of mars you kill anything anyways. Now, if it will work without kastellans we will see but I will give it a go. If there is a need fo rmore anti-tank I can switch to neutrons.
18 bolter like barrels + icarus->neutron upgrade - 4x cognis, 2x storm bolter on scouts, 2x storm bolter on basilisks
10.5 average mortar shots from a mortar team
Thinking of dropping a mortar team to buy more bolters equivalents on my models.
... that image made my heart break... It barely qualifies as Admech at this point, its just.... soup. :(
Having to take soup to even stand a chance of winning is what has me not go to tournaments at all :/
Every damn (winnable) Imperium list either has Celestine or some Custodes, so where's the variety (not to mention guard CP batteries...)
That or a Kastelan Spam... but I guess every army has this phenomena nowadays.
It is 1200/2000 points of admech. And I have been a soup player for years. Every IMPERIUM list that wins more than it loses at an ITC tournament is SOUP. And they get soupier the higher you go up the ladder. You know most the codex is junk and nonviable in a tournament setting.
EDIT: to the above, yes, that we cannot reroll to wound is a big reason why admech is not viable solo. On top of having no 'scout' deployment and having half the codex being fluff only (sicarians, kataphrons, ballistari, fist kastelons, TPD).
Suzuteo wrote: At lower points, Vanguard. At higher points, Rangers--maybe Vanguard if you have spare points. I recommend you build all of them as one type of unit so you can just counts-as them. My Skitarii are all Ranger heads on Anvil Industry bodies with Radium Carbines, and I have them count as Guardsmen, Vanguard, or Rangers depending on my need. (Just never mix them up.)
GKs are a decent complement to AdMech. Of course, this comes with the caveat that they are generally weak overall, but you seem to recognize that.
A single Knight is a better choice, since you can spam Rotate Ion Shields and even give it cover for a turn. A Warden or Crusader would definitely be better though. Any chance you have it magnetized?
So would something like this make sense to start out with ?
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 305pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
I also strongly recommend the gothic void torsos. They look great with both the short and the long greatcoats. Here's my sergeants that I just finished:
Spoiler:
Nice! I never thought of attaching the sword to the back like that. My sergeants have no backpacks. I was distinguishing them from my Alphas, who do have backpacks. Though now, I am thinking the weapons can do that, and maybe I can make my fourth Sergeant like yours.
Here are mine though (built and primed, awaiting painting, like too much of my stuff):
Yeah, they fire those bolters one-handed like Space Marines. Biotics should be able to handle that easy. Haha.
gmaleron wrote: Question from a noob, looking at getting a force of Imperial Knights to run with my Krieg, do the Knights benefit from the Forgeworld traits found in the Adeptus Mechanicus forces? Also I'm wanting to run a decent amount of Rangers, is it better to MSU teams of 5 or squads of 10 if I want to run lots of Arquebus?
No. They do get the Canticles with the use of a stratagem though. And they can be repaired.
If you want a lot of Arquebuses, you want MSUs. Sniper rifles aren't that great in this edition in general though, especially without rerolls. Maybe try Dragoons or Kastelan Robots?
Emulgator wrote: So would something like this make sense to start out with ?
I also strongly recommend the gothic void torsos. They look great with both the short and the long greatcoats. Here's my sergeants that I just finished:
Spoiler:
Those models look ace! What did you use to make them. What are they representing?
They are:
Skitarii Ranger heads
Gothic Void (detailed back) torsos from anvil industrial
Greatcoat legs long from anvil industry
Bolter mkIII burning of prospero
Chainsword mkIII burning of prospero
They are Imperial Guard Infantry Squad Sergeants with chainsword, replace laspistol with bolter for 1 point
Note, picture is a bit deceptive, the phase carbines do not come with the very large night vision scope seen on the example model they use. That is a separate bit.
I also strongly recommend the gothic void torsos. They look great with both the short and the long greatcoats. Here's my sergeants that I just finished:
Spoiler:
Those models look ace! What did you use to make them. What are they representing?
They are:
Skitarii Ranger heads
Gothic Void (detailed back) torsos from anvil industrial
Greatcoat legs long from anvil industry
Bolter mkIII burning of prospero
Chainsword mkIII burning of prospero
They are Imperial Guard Infantry Squad Sergeants with chainsword, replace laspistol with bolter for 1 point
Note, picture is a bit deceptive, the phase carbines do not come with the very large night vision scope seen on the example model they use. That is a separate bit.
Are the shoulder guards separate?
While we're talking about guns, has anyone figured out what to do with the spare weapons in the Skitarii kits? You know, the ones without any hands holding them?
Some cool conversions on that knight! I like the stripe on the shoulder pad as well. What colour did you use for the white? I hate painting white on large surfaces and you seem to have nailed it..
Some cool conversions on that knight! I like the stripe on the shoulder pad as well. What colour did you use for the white? I hate painting white on large surfaces and you seem to have nailed it..
The real trick to white on vehicles (and anything at all really) is an airbrush.
gendoikari87 wrote: No the real secret to white is off white with true white highlights and proper shading
Automatically Appended Next Post: Weathering done right is also an option
That is color/style choice, not technique. Big difference. For technique, application via airbrush is the superior method for achieving white, no matter your style.
Style-wise, "off-white" is not really the key in my book. Base color choice for either a warm pallet or cool pallet factor more. Building up from brown vs grey makes a huge impact.
The real trick to white on vehicles (and anything at all really) is an airbrush.
I suspected as much, since I don't own an airbrush I've just sort of avoided white on anything other than small details, I had however planned to buy and paint the Castellan with at least some white armour plates so I'll just have to try. I can always strip it if it doesn't work out I guess.
The real trick to white on vehicles (and anything at all really) is an airbrush.
I suspected as much, since I don't own an airbrush I've just sort of avoided white on anything other than small details, I had however planned to buy and paint the Castellan with at least some white armour plates so I'll just have to try. I can always strip it if it doesn't work out I guess.
I would say grab an affordable airbrush, honestly. Even a cheap junk Neo is preferable than the hassle of hand painting white.
I would say grab an affordable airbrush, honestly. Even a cheap junk Neo is preferable than the hassle of hand painting white.
But wouldn't you get the same weakness as a spray when it comes to using it in cold weather? Since I'm living pretty far north and have no good place to use it indoors it feels like it'd give me limited flexibility. I suppose I could look around though
I would say grab an affordable airbrush, honestly. Even a cheap junk Neo is preferable than the hassle of hand painting white.
But wouldn't you get the same weakness as a spray when it comes to using it in cold weather? Since I'm living pretty far north and have no good place to use it indoors it feels like it'd give me limited flexibility. I suppose I could look around though
You will want to do it inside. They are small enough set-ups that you can put them on a card table or something if you don't have a studio space.
This does have the bonus of letting you prime all year round too though.
The real trick to white on vehicles (and anything at all really) is an airbrush.
I suspected as much, since I don't own an airbrush I've just sort of avoided white on anything other than small details, I had however planned to buy and paint the Castellan with at least some white armour plates so I'll just have to try. I can always strip it if it doesn't work out I guess.
Psa: folks get an airbrush, they’re under 100 bucks if you look hard enough for the whole kit. They make everything 10x easier and look 10x better and your already spending a good 300-400 on an army minimum.
No excuses just doit
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I live in Ohio and airbrush indoors. It’s not a problem with acrylic paints
I might have to look into some setup that allows me to spray inside.. I've gotten pretty good at getting a nice finish with a big enough brush even on larger surfaces (though probably wouldn't work with white) but I'd be nice to not have that hassle I guess. Any specific airbrushes that any of you would recommend, that are sort of mid-tier? (ie not total cheapo 50/50 risk they fall apart every time you use them but also not something pro's use)
Also, gendo, I live a fair bit north of Ohio latitude-wise haha
PiñaColada wrote: I might have to look into some setup that allows me to spray inside.. I've gotten pretty good at getting a nice finish with a big enough brush even on larger surfaces (though probably wouldn't work with white) but I'd be nice to not have that hassle I guess. Any specific airbrushes that any of you would recommend, that are sort of mid-tier? (ie not total cheapo 50/50 risk they fall apart every time you use them but also not something pro's use)
Also, gendo, I live a fair bit north of Ohio latitude-wise haha
I have no idea what you have access to in your part of the world, but TCP Global may accommodate. My first rig was an Iwata HP-CS and a Ninja Compressor. Small, affordable and durable. The compressor was used on the Predator I posted, so while it isn't precise as I prefer nowadays, it does well enough. It is also pretty quiet, which is nice.
For an indoor set-up, just make a spray booth. Get a decently durable cardboard box, cut a vent in the top and stick maybe a computer fan or something like it and put some cheap ducting around it and have it go out a nearby window. Barring that set-up, you can just set up a box to spray in and just wear a respirator mask - you should in theory always wear one... but my plastic-coated rainbow-colored lungs will attest it is easy to forget.
Also, watch videos on airbrushing before you start. Learning how to assemble/disassemble, clean and maintain a rig is vital to its performance. But once you get one and get those sweet, sweet transitions, you will never look back.
I have no idea what you have access to in your part of the world, but TCP Global may accommodate. My first rig was an Iwata HP-CS and a Ninja Compressor. Small, affordable and durable. The compressor was used on the Predator I posted, so while it isn't precise as I prefer nowadays, it does well enough. It is also pretty quiet, which is nice.
For an indoor set-up, just make a spray booth. Get a decently durable cardboard box, cut a vent in the top and stick maybe a computer fan or something like it and put some cheap ducting around it and have it go out a nearby window. Barring that set-up, you can just set up a box to spray in and just wear a respirator mask - you should in theory always wear one... but my plastic-coated rainbow-colored lungs will attest it is easy to forget.
Also, watch videos on airbrushing before you start. Learning how to assemble/disassemble, clean and maintain a rig is vital to its performance. But once you get one and get those sweet, sweet transitions, you will never look back.
Cool, thanks! I'll have to look into this I feel like but I've always been jealous of those sweet transitions you speak of. Regarding availability I doubt it'd be an issue since I'd probably order it from the UK
I have no idea what you have access to in your part of the world, but TCP Global may accommodate. My first rig was an Iwata HP-CS and a Ninja Compressor. Small, affordable and durable. The compressor was used on the Predator I posted, so while it isn't precise as I prefer nowadays, it does well enough. It is also pretty quiet, which is nice.
For an indoor set-up, just make a spray booth. Get a decently durable cardboard box, cut a vent in the top and stick maybe a computer fan or something like it and put some cheap ducting around it and have it go out a nearby window. Barring that set-up, you can just set up a box to spray in and just wear a respirator mask - you should in theory always wear one... but my plastic-coated rainbow-colored lungs will attest it is easy to forget.
Also, watch videos on airbrushing before you start. Learning how to assemble/disassemble, clean and maintain a rig is vital to its performance. But once you get one and get those sweet, sweet transitions, you will never look back.
Cool, thanks! I'll have to look into this I feel like but I've always been jealous of those sweet transitions you speak of. Regarding availability I doubt it'd be an issue since I'd probably order it from the UK
Good luck. Let me know if it works out for you. If you have questions, you can always pick my brain.
While we're talking about guns, has anyone figured out what to do with the spare weapons in the Skitarii kits? You know, the ones without any hands holding them?
Yup, separate shoulder pads. There are a few options.
gendoikari87 wrote: So whose running what houses when the new knights book comes out?
I am painting some up as House Raven, because I have a Metalica force. Fits the fluff and looks badass with the red, black and triple-color chevrons.
Rules wise, I will do what I already do - pick the best one and count-as. Though I don't have a whole lot of use for them overall - so unless they get a major price drop, they won't happen anytime soon. Got to focus on my 30k Knights.
I have one House Taranis Crusader but I imagine I would use the house rules that I enjoyed the most. My future knights will be painted in the common Phobos green-grey.
Opponent 1: Custodes + Greyfax. He had me go first and played to deny me secondaries. First turn only my non-LOS models shot. Which is all the more reason to keep bringing baslisks. Eventually my firepower and some pile in mistakes resulted him going into a tabling at end of round 4. He concedes end of round 4 and this results in me winning 19-11, which is actually bad. I should have forced him into last 2 rounds and cleaned him off the board to get another 6-8 points. He had run this list 31 times. He had 1x3 bikers, 3x troops, 2x biker captains, some allarus. I was surprised at how lousy custodes are in a tournament. He underestimated my scout screen and didn't actually hit my lines until turn 3, then overkilled the robots and I pulled 4 of them out of combat through attrition.
Opponent 2: nice guy, had 75 genestealers and 3x tervigons. He got first turn, but I had spread my scouts and mortars everywhere to prevent any useful deepstrike. He ends up deepstrike at his deployment edge. He eats my screen. But my dakkabots and artillery grind down his list until only the flyrant remains. We spend 2 rounds until I lock him in base wiht Cawl and let him kill the robots out of combat. I then fall back and he concedes granting me a 27-13 win.
Opponent 3: also a cool guy. He had 6x3 obliterators, a 20 man plaguebearer bomb. 2x3 nurglings. like 30 cultists, and then some weird nurgle characters. I had advantage to go first and he failed to sezie on me. Since I got first, I was able to advance my mortars and push my scouts up so that he would be a solid 42" from my robots with his obliterator drop bomb. He killed 10 scouts and 8 of my mortar teams in his response but didn't drop any vehicles or robots. I then shot his slow as hell oblits to pieces and used my incidental bolter fire to erase his plague bomb. Celestine then flew over and kill the last 2 oblits and his WL. This was a 31-13 win.
I end up getting second because the other 3-0 guy went 35/34/36 whereas I went 19/27/31. Unit takeaways
SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT SCOUTTTTTS SCOUTS MAKE THEM NOW STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND GET SCOUTS
All 3 games I only won because of the scouts. First guy I delayed his charge until turn 3, which was a death sentence. Second guy would have tabled me in a single turn if he could deploy on my deployment edge, but instead I took him apart piecemeal and erased 40 genestealers a turn solely because the scouts pushed him back another 20". Third guy it was only a game because i have scouts. I specifically ran scouts because obliterator bombs exist. That i went first and had scouts meant I was almost certainly going to win over time. Had I gone second, I would have only had even a passable chance because the scouts could shield my robots. I know some people here are not down with Soup, but uh .... if you want to win ... it can be done.
It's not so much soup in and of itself as it is something like a battalion that is just an IG company commander and scouts. Aside from the fluff implications, it's "wrong" from an army standpoint, and therefore GW probably is going to do something to address it. I'd be leery of building scouts solely for your style of list at this point because I sincerely think that as it gets more play time and exposure it will inch higher and higher up GW's Nerf list.
For example if Admech was running a basic space Marines patrol detachment with some scouts that's one thing. That's an army that "makes sense". The moment it's a detachment of scouts led by a random IG commander who for some reason is commanding an admech detachment with Cawl and/or Celestine within spitting distance, that's a problem as far as GW is likely concerned, and I would expect to see it addressed.
It is absolutely effective, I just expect GW to release some sort of "<Imperium> and <chaos> do not count as a common keyword for the purposes of a detachment" type of rule soon. Combine that with a highly likely nerf to the IGCP battery commander and I'd be very leery of building that little super detachment until after the FAQ drops. GW doesn't seem to like gimmicks, and while its absolutely clever, having scouts be the preffered troops for admech is absolutely a gimmick they'll want to address in the FAQ at some point.
The guy with the best list brought 200 zombie bodies and used the CANT_SHOOT_THIS_UNIT strategem combined with the IF_MODELS_DIE_NEAR_THIS_UNIT_THIS_UNIT_GETS_MORE_ZOMBIES to get 200 bodes on the board. So uh, yeah, get scouts, git gud. The 200 zombie guy only lost the tourney because he didn't get to the bottom of turn 3 in time and the TO gave both players a loss. The other admech guy went 0-3 and got smoked by armies that could play the board. So this whole idea that we need to play 'admech as admech' is ridiculous. The admech codex is riddled with holes and can't be run against real armies.
I know I am probably the only one who thinks this, but I liked INDEX 40k. I thought it was cool. I liked the lower power level and the much looser army builds.
@Wulfey
I agree. 3x5 Scouts are mandatory for competitive play. I built mine for melee.
How many infantry do you bring for the deployment zone screen?
Wulfey wrote: I know I am probably the only one who thinks this, but I liked INDEX 40k. I thought it was cool. I liked the lower power level and the much looser army builds.
You're not. I also think the codexes have made the meta worse. Deldar may be the latest example of imbalance.
Opponent 1: Custodes + Greyfax. He had me go first and played to deny me secondaries. First turn only my non-LOS models shot. Which is all the more reason to keep bringing baslisks. Eventually my firepower and some pile in mistakes resulted him going into a tabling at end of round 4. He concedes end of round 4 and this results in me winning 19-11, which is actually bad. I should have forced him into last 2 rounds and cleaned him off the board to get another 6-8 points. He had run this list 31 times. He had 1x3 bikers, 3x troops, 2x biker captains, some allarus. I was surprised at how lousy custodes are in a tournament. He underestimated my scout screen and didn't actually hit my lines until turn 3, then overkilled the robots and I pulled 4 of them out of combat through attrition.
Opponent 2: nice guy, had 75 genestealers and 3x tervigons. He got first turn, but I had spread my scouts and mortars everywhere to prevent any useful deepstrike. He ends up deepstrike at his deployment edge. He eats my screen. But my dakkabots and artillery grind down his list until only the flyrant remains. We spend 2 rounds until I lock him in base wiht Cawl and let him kill the robots out of combat. I then fall back and he concedes granting me a 27-13 win.
Opponent 3: also a cool guy. He had 6x3 obliterators, a 20 man plaguebearer bomb. 2x3 nurglings. like 30 cultists, and then some weird nurgle characters. I had advantage to go first and he failed to sezie on me. Since I got first, I was able to advance my mortars and push my scouts up so that he would be a solid 42" from my robots with his obliterator drop bomb. He killed 10 scouts and 8 of my mortar teams in his response but didn't drop any vehicles or robots. I then shot his slow as hell oblits to pieces and used my incidental bolter fire to erase his plague bomb. Celestine then flew over and kill the last 2 oblits and his WL. This was a 31-13 win.
I end up getting second because the other 3-0 guy went 35/34/36 whereas I went 19/27/31. Unit takeaways
SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT SCOUTTTTTS SCOUTS MAKE THEM NOW STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND GET SCOUTS
All 3 games I only won because of the scouts. First guy I delayed his charge until turn 3, which was a death sentence. Second guy would have tabled me in a single turn if he could deploy on my deployment edge, but instead I took him apart piecemeal and erased 40 genestealers a turn solely because the scouts pushed him back another 20". Third guy it was only a game because i have scouts. I specifically ran scouts because obliterator bombs exist. That i went first and had scouts meant I was almost certainly going to win over time. Had I gone second, I would have only had even a passable chance because the scouts could shield my robots. I know some people here are not down with Soup, but uh .... if you want to win ... it can be done.
Congrats on getting second place mate. Well done. Hope you had a good time
Opponent 1: Custodes + Greyfax. He had me go first and played to deny me secondaries. First turn only my non-LOS models shot. Which is all the more reason to keep bringing baslisks. Eventually my firepower and some pile in mistakes resulted him going into a tabling at end of round 4. He concedes end of round 4 and this results in me winning 19-11, which is actually bad. I should have forced him into last 2 rounds and cleaned him off the board to get another 6-8 points. He had run this list 31 times. He had 1x3 bikers, 3x troops, 2x biker captains, some allarus. I was surprised at how lousy custodes are in a tournament. He underestimated my scout screen and didn't actually hit my lines until turn 3, then overkilled the robots and I pulled 4 of them out of combat through attrition.
Opponent 2: nice guy, had 75 genestealers and 3x tervigons. He got first turn, but I had spread my scouts and mortars everywhere to prevent any useful deepstrike. He ends up deepstrike at his deployment edge. He eats my screen. But my dakkabots and artillery grind down his list until only the flyrant remains. We spend 2 rounds until I lock him in base wiht Cawl and let him kill the robots out of combat. I then fall back and he concedes granting me a 27-13 win.
Opponent 3: also a cool guy. He had 6x3 obliterators, a 20 man plaguebearer bomb. 2x3 nurglings. like 30 cultists, and then some weird nurgle characters. I had advantage to go first and he failed to sezie on me. Since I got first, I was able to advance my mortars and push my scouts up so that he would be a solid 42" from my robots with his obliterator drop bomb. He killed 10 scouts and 8 of my mortar teams in his response but didn't drop any vehicles or robots. I then shot his slow as hell oblits to pieces and used my incidental bolter fire to erase his plague bomb. Celestine then flew over and kill the last 2 oblits and his WL. This was a 31-13 win.
I end up getting second because the other 3-0 guy went 35/34/36 whereas I went 19/27/31. Unit takeaways
SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT SCOUTTTTTS SCOUTS MAKE THEM NOW STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND GET SCOUTS
All 3 games I only won because of the scouts. First guy I delayed his charge until turn 3, which was a death sentence. Second guy would have tabled me in a single turn if he could deploy on my deployment edge, but instead I took him apart piecemeal and erased 40 genestealers a turn solely because the scouts pushed him back another 20". Third guy it was only a game because i have scouts. I specifically ran scouts because obliterator bombs exist. That i went first and had scouts meant I was almost certainly going to win over time. Had I gone second, I would have only had even a passable chance because the scouts could shield my robots. I know some people here are not down with Soup, but uh .... if you want to win ... it can be done.
how did you accompany celestine with these scouts? i cant find any scouts in my adeptus ministorum army list
The thing is tho, that soup battalion turns my admech gun line from chancy to fully viable. I didn't really need the cadia spearhead, I could have have admech models in place the mortars. Rangers teams and more onagers could have done comprable work to the basilisks and mortar teams (at reduced efficiency and less flexibly). But the Celestine-Commander-Scouts combo fills the critical holes that an IMPERIUM gunline has.
Celestine I save for turn 3 and use her to clear out support characters, solo their captains, and then claim linebreaker and key objectives.
Commander gets me 5+/5+, which is just mandatory.
Scouts mean I don't die to any of the deep strike bomb lists. At the tournament, I would say 50% of the lists had a deep strike bomb.
ph34r wrote: How important do you think It was that your units were Scouts rather than say 10 Guardsmen spaced out as anti-deep-strike?
10 Guard start in your deployment zone. If the opponent goes first he deepstrikes within 21" (12" deployment zone + 9" distance"). Scouts deploy outside of your deployment zone. Now your opponent is deepstriking 39" away (12"deployment zone, Scout 18" infront of that and then 9" more distance)
I'm more arguing that for those who are looking to this thread for advice, to maybe wait on buying the soup batallion until after the FAQ and you know it still works as intended.
You'd have to be insane to not realize how good that detachment is for admech. I'm merely arguing that it's obviously against what GW intended an admech army to look like and I wouldn't be surprised to see some detachment/ally tweaks to address it.
All I'm saying is unless you already have the models, maybe wait until the spring FAQ drops before you spend your money if you're looking at the super soup as an option. If the FAQ doesn't affect it by all means go out and buy it, I'd just hate a newer player to buy that stuff only for the strategy to be FAQ'd in a week or two.
Opponent 1: Custodes + Greyfax. He had me go first and played to deny me secondaries. First turn only my non-LOS models shot. Which is all the more reason to keep bringing baslisks. Eventually my firepower and some pile in mistakes resulted him going into a tabling at end of round 4. He concedes end of round 4 and this results in me winning 19-11, which is actually bad. I should have forced him into last 2 rounds and cleaned him off the board to get another 6-8 points. He had run this list 31 times. He had 1x3 bikers, 3x troops, 2x biker captains, some allarus. I was surprised at how lousy custodes are in a tournament. He underestimated my scout screen and didn't actually hit my lines until turn 3, then overkilled the robots and I pulled 4 of them out of combat through attrition.
Opponent 2: nice guy, had 75 genestealers and 3x tervigons. He got first turn, but I had spread my scouts and mortars everywhere to prevent any useful deepstrike. He ends up deepstrike at his deployment edge. He eats my screen. But my dakkabots and artillery grind down his list until only the flyrant remains. We spend 2 rounds until I lock him in base wiht Cawl and let him kill the robots out of combat. I then fall back and he concedes granting me a 27-13 win.
Opponent 3: also a cool guy. He had 6x3 obliterators, a 20 man plaguebearer bomb. 2x3 nurglings. like 30 cultists, and then some weird nurgle characters. I had advantage to go first and he failed to sezie on me. Since I got first, I was able to advance my mortars and push my scouts up so that he would be a solid 42" from my robots with his obliterator drop bomb. He killed 10 scouts and 8 of my mortar teams in his response but didn't drop any vehicles or robots. I then shot his slow as hell oblits to pieces and used my incidental bolter fire to erase his plague bomb. Celestine then flew over and kill the last 2 oblits and his WL. This was a 31-13 win.
I end up getting second because the other 3-0 guy went 35/34/36 whereas I went 19/27/31. Unit takeaways
SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT SCOUTTTTTS SCOUTS MAKE THEM NOW STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND GET SCOUTS
All 3 games I only won because of the scouts. First guy I delayed his charge until turn 3, which was a death sentence. Second guy would have tabled me in a single turn if he could deploy on my deployment edge, but instead I took him apart piecemeal and erased 40 genestealers a turn solely because the scouts pushed him back another 20". Third guy it was only a game because i have scouts. I specifically ran scouts because obliterator bombs exist. That i went first and had scouts meant I was almost certainly going to win over time. Had I gone second, I would have only had even a passable chance because the scouts could shield my robots. I know some people here are not down with Soup, but uh .... if you want to win ... it can be done.
All they need to do to fight SOUP (and I want to fight it) is give rangers scout rule back...
Yeah. I would love for Skitarii to get a Scout rule. Hell, even a Vanguard move would be tolerable.
That being said, I think you need to bring both SM Scouts and a good number of infantry or heavy weapons teams. You need to fill the No Man's Land and your own deployment zone.
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. I would love for Skitarii to get a Scout rule. Hell, even a Vanguard move would be tolerable.
That being said, I think you need to bring both SM Scouts and a good number of infantry or heavy weapons teams. You need to fill the No Man's Land and your own deployment zone.
And they absolutely should. However I do think it's sound advice to hold off on soup purchases until this FAQ comes out. Obviously if you want to buy space marine scouts, go right ahead, but if you're buying them for the sole purpose of running in your admech army it might be prudent to wait up to a month (or whenever the FAQ comes out) and see if that is still going to be legal/viable. Same could be said for a fourth onager dunecrawler if the 0-3 restriction has any merit to it.
I'm not trying to stop or bemoan anyone from buying these things but it might be worth keeping in mind, especially if you're on a tight budget.
I know I am probably the only one who thinks this, but I liked INDEX 40k. I thought it was cool. I liked the lower power level and the much looser army builds.
Oh man, THIS SO MUCH. I really, really miss those early, heady days of 8th Ed when things looked so promising and I was playing consistently and having fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So reading these rules I surmise that the whole mix and match approach no longer works for detachments. Hmm that changes things. I guess those enjoying scouts now have to take them as an auxiliary? Buff to command points for 5 per battalion means your still +1 better off after you do so.
Be interesting to see what you tournament dwellers think of these rules.
But nothing useful for us. No point errata, no rules fixes. Nada.
Data sheet 3 per 2k list. Wait does that mean You could have 6 Daka bots in a squad and an additional 2 in a seperate squad but you could not have 4 squads of 2?
But nothing useful for us. No point errata, no rules fixes. Nada.
Data sheet 3 per 2k list. Wait does that mean You could have 6 Daka bots in a squad and an additional 2 in a seperate squad but you could not have 4 squads of 2?
Seems to be the case. It is the spam-killer rule, basically.
But nothing useful for us. No point errata, no rules fixes. Nada.
Data sheet 3 per 2k list. Wait does that mean You could have 6 Daka bots in a squad and an additional 2 in a seperate squad but you could not have 4 squads of 2?
Seems to be the case. It is the spam-killer rule, basically.
Oh. Wow that is interesting. Will watch with interest how this plays out.
If playing imperial knights that would mean you couldn’t use 4 Armigers alongside 2 bigger knights(ie two super heavy detachments). Not that you would want to since they are gak
But nothing useful for us. No point errata, no rules fixes. Nada.
Data sheet 3 per 2k list. Wait does that mean You could have 6 Daka bots in a squad and an additional 2 in a seperate squad but you could not have 4 squads of 2?
Seems to be the case. It is the spam-killer rule, basically.
Oh. Wow that is interesting. Will watch with interest how this plays out.
If playing imperial knights that would mean you couldn’t use 4 Armigers alongside 2 bigger knights(ie two super heavy detachments). Not that you would want to since they are gak
You can put multiple Armigers into a single LoW slot, right? So that is a way to get them... if you really want to commit to theme, I guess.
And yeah, really curious to see what Wulfey will do now that Soup took a bit of a hit.
Good thing I got my scout tourney in when I could! Battalions giving 5 CP opens up some more options with high CP characters. I have some unpainted sisters of silence that may be turned into Sisters of battle HQs pretty soon. And I have some unpainted blood angels HQ conversions. Time to start rewriting a list that can win a tournament again.
Also, the 'no deepstrike out of deployment on first turn' means that SCOUTS are not as mandatory as they were. First turn alpha deep strikes were skewing the game into requiring stupid scouts. They may still be better than rangers even with the deep strike delay, but they won't be as damnably necessary. I am very happy that GW shut down that first turn alpha deep strike BS. It was ruining the game.
Screens are less important than before now, I can use my pure AdMech force knowing I'm not handicapping myself too much and can actually deploy my infantry in good positions instead of all over the place to prevent 1st turn rapetrain.
Wulfey wrote: Good thing I got my scout tourney in when I could! Battalions giving 5 CP opens up some more options with high CP characters. I have some unpainted sisters of silence that may be turned into Sisters of battle HQs pretty soon. And I have some unpainted blood angels HQ conversions. Time to start rewriting a list that can win a tournament again.
Also, the 'no deepstrike out of deployment on first turn' means that SCOUTS are not as mandatory as they were. First turn alpha deep strikes were skewing the game into requiring stupid scouts. They may still be better than rangers even with the deep strike delay, but they won't be as damnably necessary. I am very happy that GW shut down that first turn alpha deep strike BS. It was ruining the game.
Still bringing in a sizeable force of your Admech Wulfey?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do you guys think abut my below list. I mostly have all units except for 2 dragoons and the electro priests.
What would you guys do to improve upon it? Assuming I wanted to play mono faction
STYGIES + MARS went up in viability massively by turning off turn 1 DSrapetrains. Dragoons are now really good mid board screeners thanks to their durability and movement speed. And yes, I will be running a higher percentage of admech because admech itself is more viable. I don't need to rely on non-admech stuff to stay in the game. I wanted to run a 3-0 list, and that meant no more than 1100 points of admech. A 3-0 list with 1500 points of admech will definitely be a thing.
LexOdin9 wrote: Anyone notice how any scrap of viability that Graia had was taken out back behind the shed and 'put to sleep'?
The graia thing seems good to me. It means if someone fires a weapon that does 6 damage at a ranger you just roll one die, on the roll of a 6 it survives. If someone wounds with three bolters you roll three die, needing all to be 6's for it to survive. It's how I've played it since codex release and since they're not very popular it seems it might be that they clarified it because of my questions. I'm happy to have it on paper even if I'm annoyed that a kataphron on full health overheating with their plasma is "brought back" on one wound rather than three.
LexOdin9 wrote: Anyone notice how any scrap of viability that Graia had was taken out back behind the shed and 'put to sleep'?
The graia thing seems good to me. It means if someone fires a weapon that does 6 damage at a ranger you just roll one die, on the roll of a 6 it survives. If someone wounds with three bolters you roll three die, needing all to be 6's for it to survive. It's how I've played it since codex release and since they're not very popular it seems it might be that they clarified it because of my questions. I'm happy to have it on paper even if I'm annoyed that a kataphron on full health overheating with their plasma is "brought back" on one wound rather than three.
You must not have been reading the changes closely.
(1) Graia save no longer works on anything in our army that has a FNP (so electropriests no longer benefit from being in a Graia army)
(2) Suppose your Onager has 6 wounds left and a lascannon deals 6 damage to it. If you pass your Graia save, you now have 1 wound left. In the old version, you'd still have 6 wounds left.
In the old version, Graia was marginally worth taking for these reasons. This trait was not causing the codex to over-perform. And yet here we are, it's nerfed.
Were you guys seeing Graia at the top tables? I wasn't.
And yet at the same time we still have way overpriced ruststalkers. Someone's perspective is incredibly warped.
You must not have been reading the changes closely.
(1) Graia save no longer works on anything in our army that has a FNP (so electropriests no longer benefit from being in a Graia army)
(2) Suppose your Onager has 6 wounds left and a lascannon deals 6 damage to it. If you pass your Graia save, you now have 1 wound left. In the old version, you'd still have 6 wounds left.
In the old version, Graia was marginally worth taking for these reasons. This trait was not causing the codex to over-perform. And yet here we are, it's nerfed.
Were you guys seeing Graia at the top tables? I wasn't.
And yet at the same time we still have way overpriced ruststalkers. Someone's perspective is incredibly warped.
1, Yeah but that's a general nerf that from a "flow of game" perspective I understand. Sure it sucks that electropriests are worse but that's not a change to the refusal to yield ability.
2, I seriously doubt that was what the old rule meant.Granted the rule was written with clunky language but it says that the wound that slew it is ignored not every point of damage. Maybe I misunderstood the old rule but I didn't imagine it working the way you evidently assumed.
Did you see graia at top tables? No, and you still won't. I'll still argue this wasn't a nerf to the dogma itself though and merely a clarification.
I'm going to try my Stygies lists with 10 Fulgurites and 3 Dragoons in Infiltration in the upcoming days, just so people don't believe they're safe from turn 1 charges, yet... Maybe even add one of my Domini with the relic axe that gives +2S -2 AP 3D.
So the basic gunline list of Cawl - dakkabots - guard artillery is even better. The stuff that really pooped on that list got weaker. Celestine is now more expensive to get, but a guard battalion gives lots of CP and going up to a battalion of MARS gives a whole lot of CP.
This list has 13CP. Like holy hell that is a lot. Do I even need the CP battery? Maybe I even run sisters HQs.
CADIA - 2x commanders, 3x9 mortar guards, 2x baslisks, 2x mortar teams SISTERS - Celestine + 1x5 girls with 3x storm bolters MARS - Cawl, Enginseer, 5x dakkabots, 2x neutrons, 3x5 rangers or vanguards
No scouts. But I can double move the guardsmen up the board even further than the scouts on turn 1.
LexOdin9 wrote: How do we know that Stygies is immune to the turn 1 deep strike changes?
I'm not doubting, I just want to know what the argument is. Lay it out for me, if you will.
At the end of the paragraph for Tactical Reserves:
Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies.
Our Infiltrate stratagem is the same as Raven Guard. And also it circumvent the rule because the unit is not arriving at his first turn, but right before it.
LexOdin9 wrote: How do we know that Stygies is immune to the turn 1 deep strike changes?
I'm not doubting, I just want to know what the argument is. Lay it out for me, if you will.
At the end of the paragraph for Tactical Reserves:
Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies.
Our Infiltrate stratagem is the same as Raven Guard. And also it circumvent the rule because the unit is not arriving at his first turn, but right before it.
Might that be FAQ’d or is that working as intended I wonder?
LexOdin9 wrote: How do we know that Stygies is immune to the turn 1 deep strike changes?
I'm not doubting, I just want to know what the argument is. Lay it out for me, if you will.
At the end of the paragraph for Tactical Reserves:
Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies.
Our Infiltrate stratagem is the same as Raven Guard. And also it circumvent the rule because the unit is not arriving at his first turn, but right before it.
Might that be FAQ’d or is that working as intended I wonder?
Why would they FAQ the only exception ? It's meant to be this way, or Infiltrate becomes plain unusable because you'll be in a weird inter-dimensional plane where you're not exactly in reserve but not exactly on the table turn 1.
Wulfey wrote: So the basic gunline list of Cawl - dakkabots - guard artillery is even better. The stuff that really pooped on that list got weaker. Celestine is now more expensive to get, but a guard battalion gives lots of CP and going up to a battalion of MARS gives a whole lot of CP.
This list has 13CP. Like holy hell that is a lot. Do I even need the CP battery? Maybe I even run sisters HQs.
CADIA - 2x commanders, 3x9 mortar guards, 2x baslisks, 2x mortar teams
SISTERS - Celestine + 1x5 girls with 3x storm bolters
MARS - Cawl, Enginseer, 5x dakkabots, 2x neutrons, 3x5 rangers or vanguards
No scouts. But I can double move the guardsmen up the board even further than the scouts on turn 1.
Are you finding Neutrons reliable? I seem to always roll a D3 and get 1. It’s uncanny
LexOdin9 wrote: How do we know that Stygies is immune to the turn 1 deep strike changes?
I'm not doubting, I just want to know what the argument is. Lay it out for me, if you will.
At the end of the paragraph for Tactical Reserves:
Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies.
Our Infiltrate stratagem is the same as Raven Guard. And also it circumvent the rule because the unit is not arriving at his first turn, but right before it.
Might that be FAQ’d or is that working as intended I wonder?
Why would they FAQ the only exception ? It's meant to be this way, or Infiltrate becomes plain unusable because you'll be in a weird inter-dimensional plane where you're not exactly in reserve but not exactly on the table turn 1.
I dunno. Just speculating. Oh well in that case Stygies definitely has the edge over Lucius. I tend to swap back and forth with those forgeworlds
Alright no problems Never tried Lucius, I tend to think relying on a 9" charge for a CC unit is bad. For a shooty unit (let's say Corpuscarii) then it's good because you can have them strike where you need them to be.
Shoot them a bit, charge after there's room for one model. Or use WMS if there's a little gap somewhere. It just gives us more protection when for example using a Ranger squad atop a ruin, by spacing them so that they occupy the whole floor. It's not charge-proof 100% but if your charger don't have shooting weapons you're good.
EDIT: My 2000 pts AdMech & Dark Angels twin batallions list now gives me 13 CP. I can finally use Necromechanic without feeling bad.
Aaranis wrote: Alright no problems Never tried Lucius, I tend to think relying on a 9" charge for a CC unit is bad. For a shooty unit (let's say Corpuscarii) then it's good because you can have them strike where you need them to be.
Aaranis wrote: Shoot them a bit, charge after there's room for one model. Or use WMS if there's a little gap somewhere. It just gives us more protection when for example using a Ranger squad atop a ruin, by spacing them so that they occupy the whole floor. It's not charge-proof 100% but if your charger don't have shooting weapons you're good.
EDIT: My 2000 pts AdMech & Dark Angels twin batallions list now gives me 13 CP. I can finally use Necromechanic without feeling bad.
Nope. You can't use wobbly model at all now. So 3 models can cover an entire floor of a ruin easily so that a base can't fit
5CP battalions makes LUCIUS deepstrike bombs pretty interesting. A battalion now has the CP to deep strike itself. 18" range guns that don't care about screens has me thinking about herds of blandguard with omnispexes starting off the table.
Aaranis wrote: Shoot them a bit, charge after there's room for one model. Or use WMS if there's a little gap somewhere. It just gives us more protection when for example using a Ranger squad atop a ruin, by spacing them so that they occupy the whole floor. It's not charge-proof 100% but if your charger don't have shooting weapons you're good.
EDIT: My 2000 pts AdMech & Dark Angels twin batallions list now gives me 13 CP. I can finally use Necromechanic without feeling bad.
Nope. You can't use wobbly model at all now. So 3 models can cover an entire floor of a ruin easily so that a base can't fit
Depends heavily on the structure of the building, they're always a gap you could fit a small base in. And for 3 models to cover a whole floor, they'd need to be really big models or be on a tiny floor.
Wulfey wrote: 5CP battalions makes LUCIUS deepstrike bombs pretty interesting. A battalion now has the CP to deep strike itself. 18" range guns that don't care about screens has me thinking about herds of blandguard with omnispexes starting off the table.
hmm LUCIUS alpha is no more, but STYGIES VIII ist still legit
NONE of our primary strengths were nerfed. ALL of our primary weaknesses got mitigated.
No more Soup Battalions (need to figure out if bringing Rowboat is worth it, as well as the Scouts), but so many other indirect buffs for AdMech proper.
Also, not sure if this is old, but HWTs apparently get ONE Lasgun and Frag nades. Haha.
They also clarified the CP rerolls for Grand Strategist. You roll one dice per CP spent, not per stratagem used. Kurov's Aquila counts per opponent's strategem used though.
Bringing Celestine and some seraphim brings my Stygies force a huge extra punch. Are those days over with the anti soup rules, or can I still bring both detachments to matched play games?
