lord_blackfang wrote: It still costs a card. If it works one time and disappears on the backswing, it's no better than a ploy, outside upgrade-dependant objective or inspire conditions.
ANY warband that loves to piece trade or has disposable fighters is going to hugely benefit from upgrades that can be equipped to get their Glory train started, or allows you to tool up a fighter for a single Glory with the upgrades that get better the more you have on a fighter.
Doesn't matter for Grymnwatch, Gitz, Godsworn Hunt, Skaven that they go away when the fighter is hit... since all they are trying to do is send their fighters at you like damage 3+ bullets to one shot your fighters.
Do we know when Harrowdeep is coming out - is it likely to be before the end of October? I've got my warhammer+ voucher burning a hole in my imaginary pocket
Billicus wrote: Do we know when Harrowdeep is coming out - is it likely to be before the end of October? I've got my warhammer+ voucher burning a hole in my imaginary pocket
No idea, hoping they announce the preorder tomorrow. I want to use my voucher on it too.
The Rivals format seems interesting. Wondering what more of these preconstructed decks will look like.
I wonder if we'll still have the Vanguard format, or if Rivals is replacing it.
I do wish Rivals wasn't so restrictive though. I'd have loved if it was something like Faction Cards + Essentials Pack, which will still keep folks on the same level. Some factions just have awful faction cards, and the Silent Menace wouldn't be a great deck to run on it's own.
Turns out I've been unknowingly playing Rivals for 2 years now ever since the default decks have become so coherent they don't need tweaking. Truly a revolutionary format. Nice way to frame any potential reduction in the number of cards you get tho.
jaredb wrote: The Rivals format seems interesting. Wondering what more of these preconstructed decks will look like.
I wonder if we'll still have the Vanguard format, or if Rivals is replacing it.
I do wish Rivals wasn't so restrictive though. I'd have loved if it was something like Faction Cards + Essentials Pack, which will still keep folks on the same level. Some factions just have awful faction cards, and the Silent Menace wouldn't be a great deck to run on it's own.
I get the impression that the only valid Rivals decks will be those released with the new season, or Silent Menace and other decks they release like that. Just taking the faction cards from any of the previously released warbands won't be a valid Rivals deck, as those weren't balanced with this game mode in mind. So if you want to play older warbands you need to pair them with one of the universal pre-constructed decks. Which isn't great.
What would be ideal is if they just gave us a list of cards for a Rivals deck for each pre-existing faction, that are broadly balanced to the new ones, but I doubt that will happen.
lord_blackfang wrote: Turns out I've been unknowingly playing Rivals for 2 years now ever since the default decks have become so coherent they don't need tweaking. Truly a revolutionary format. Nice way to frame any potential reduction in the number of cards you get tho.
You sort of dominated with Bone Jokers and Soulless elves the last time we played, although I feel I've upped my Lumineth I don't feel comfortable going against the newer warbands. The promised carrot is the universal expansion that should theoretically bring the older decks to pair with the newer ones. I do want to see how everything will play out, but yeah, certain decks drive themselves just fine with little to no follow-up tuning.
Kind of annoying that the acrylic tokens for pre-order are GW online store only. Going to feel pretty crummy telling my local store to not order me an extra copy now.
May also be in expectation that they'll sell fewer of the warbands to people just chasing the cards
with the new game mode just needing this starter plus your warband of choice instead of having to buy warbands just for the odd card or two to be competitive
Underworlds is a very interesting look into just how fast and by how much GW is willing to jack the prices up if they think they can get away with it. Warbands went from 15£ to 25£ in what, three years?
I've been particularly disappointed with the price increases on their Underworlds stuff. It's the difference between buying 4 or 5 sets to perhaps just purchasing the odd one or... none. It's less about being able to afford them against perceived value for money. £15 for some unique sculpts which I liked and fit into a gaming ecosystem felt like a really good deal by GW standards.
At £25 I'd sooner buy a box of infantry for an army based game or put it towards another hobby or activity entirely.
Anyway, if there's a sale on at Element for this box later down the line I'll more than likely pick it up as the set this time around looks pretty good.
Hiking the starter is particularly awful for me as I adore the kruleboys but have no interest in primaris stormcast and very little in what will be, I believe, my 6th set of cardboard components.
lord_blackfang wrote: Hiking the starter is particularly awful for me as I adore the kruleboys but have no interest in primaris stormcast and very little in what will be, I believe, my 6th set of cardboard components.
And I really have disliked the price jumps on this game. I never really felt the need to chase every single warband, but I didn't fault those who did. I'm missing the individually available warband models more than anything else right now. They were great for conversions.
Unboxing article went up as soon as I finished typing this, of course.
Vorian wrote: Were they not £17.50 originally? Looking at when I got them in July 2018 they were £14 after 20% discount.
Nah
These are sprues without cards, I believe, intended for AoS.
Seems correct. Pretty certain they were originally £17.50 with cards on the original release, since I would have ordered them before any price increase.
Vorian wrote: Were they not £17.50 originally? Looking at when I got them in July 2018 they were £14 after 20% discount.
Nah
These are sprues without cards, I believe, intended for AoS.
Seems correct. Pretty certain they were originally £17.50 with cards on the original release, since I would have ordered them before any price increase.
I don't regret buying Direchasm( its grown on me ) but I love the theme of this new set and wish I'd been patient. The art, boards, dice...even the stormcasts are gorgeous. The Kruelboyz aren't my bag but they're not objectionable either. I've got a feeling that we might see new warbands for Tzeentch and Nighthaunts...
I like Xandire's design but it would have been nice to have an option for her hood to be pulled back. Its a great touch and makes her stand out as an explorer but I also like her hair style on the box cover...cake or eat it situation. Also, it would have been nice to have their warscrolls in the new Stormcast battletome...little impracticalities!
I've had to say no to myself to purchases of latet. I know that if I do put in an order for Harrowdeep on saturday, everything else is going to be announced all at once and it will be even worse! A new Warhammer Quest! New titan for titanicus! Harlequin codex! I'll be bloody penniless!
It doesn't look like "Cage Head" Kruleboy can be painted partially assembled, my shaky hands are not looking forward to working on him.
Because they're designed as push-fits, you can have them fully built to prime and use a knife blade or a flathead screwdriver to gently separate it out to paint the head first.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I still think the fact the Profiteers warband has a Khemist in it, but costs less than a standalone Khemist is hilarious
If you can find a substitute base or an extender or equivalent the Crimson Court gives you 4 Vampires for £25. As opposed to buying a single Vampire Lord for £18.50.
Most of the Underworlds Warbands give you pretty solid character equivalents, even the direct only ones for AoS use.
If you can find a substitute base or an extender or equivalent the Crimson Court gives you 4 Vampires for £25. As opposed to buying a single Vampire Lord for £18.50.
Most of the Underworlds Warbands give you pretty solid character equivalents, even the direct only ones for AoS use.
This! Its a fantastic set of models and they also make for a solid adventuring group for the solo-coop campaigns for AoS.
To answer the price questions, the warbands were £17.50 when they came out. With GW’s fictitious exchange rates of 2 CAD = 1 GBP it means that in Canada in Jan 2020 a warband cost $35 plus tax. Prices went up twice in 2020 so by the end of the year (Morgok’s crushers) they were $50 plus tax.
I wanna say Nightvault was $70 when it was released - definitely it was a good deal for Canada even if I’m wrong and it was $80. Beastgrave was $80 when released and got jacked up to $100 last year mid-pandemic and Direchasm was released at $100. Harrowdeep now looks like it’s going to be at the $120 price point - pretty ridiculous really.
Talk about printing in China all you want. The real reason GW raises prices year after year, decade after decade, is because they can. Because fools like us will continue to buy.
I think the original pricing in the UK was £40 for Shadespire and Nighthaunt with the warbands being £17.50.
Then I think the price rose to £50 for Beastgrave and Direchasm with the Beastgrave warbands being £22.50 and the Direchasm warbands being £25. At some point they may have increased the Nighthaunt warbands to match the Beastgrave.
So, £60 now for Harrowdeep (maybe the WarCom article saying it was the biggest ever starter was a typo and they meant biggest priced ever starter) and I wouldn't be too surprised to see the warbands get price creeped to £27.50/£30 now too.
One of the reasons I liked Underworlds compared to Necromunda/Kill Team was it used to feel like a very nicely priced casual/introduction game. I got the N17 set then got turned off Necromunda when the book treadmill became apparent. Same with all the Elite/Arena book/expansion spam in KT.
The first two UW seasons were really nice, I got 2 x starter + 2 more warbands for £92 total after the 20% FLGS discount and that gave me six warbands, all the dice and cards I needed and four boards. That feels like peak new GW and it has been a downhill slide since then.
Chopstick wrote: Don't worry, the warband in this new season will have a price hike to reflect the insane value of the new starter.
Also, that's a 4 man stormcast warband, they're tough, they hit hard and now also come with extra body, pay up boissss.
...Storm Of Celestus in the two player starter is also a 4 person Stormcast warband, and they have done anything but set the world on fire.
4 health fighters in the game are honestly not hard to kill, and from what I can see on the fighter cards, their defensive stats aren't much to write home about.
Really, the only thing unique about this Stormcast warband is that we FINALLY have one that has a truly diverse loadout. A ranged fighter, a couple melee brawlers, and a fast objective grabber. Compared to the all the other Stormcast warbands, we have one that can now play a flexible style like Dread Pageant, or Myari's Purifiers.
I really worry they might have priced people out in my region. Direchasm’s seemingly accelerated release rate early this year - at a time when nobody was playing in-person anyway - burned a lot of people out. They might see this new price and just not come back. More than the mainstream games, Underworlds seemed to need that competitive community to keep it alive and I think the price rises during a pandemic may have driven enough away that our small community won’t be able to reform when we’re able to play in-person again.
As much as I enjoy this game, at 95$ USD I feel this is a pretty big rip-off. That's half the price of the Octarius box for less than half the models, no terrain, a booklet instead of an actual book, and more cards? And while I bought Octarius, I didn't feel it was a particularly great deal. Does this also mean that Warbands are going up to 50 bucks each this season too?
I just don't see inflation or the extra content of this set being worth 45 bucks more than Nightvault, or even 30 more than the new starter.
It's a tough choice as this is probably my favorite GW game, but I have a hard time supporting them if this is their new pricing model.
OK.. now that I have seen the fronts and backs of the new cards.. going forwards I dont believe I will mix the two types.. so everything prior to now, is old style, and this box and going forward is it's own card pool
jaredb wrote: I don't play without card sleeves, so cardbacks mean very little to me. Love the full spread art on the new cards though.
Neither do I, but some sleeves aren't perfectly opaque... My objective deck sleeves are fine for preventing me from telling which card is which from wear patterns and color differences, but I will be able to tell which cards have the new backs for sure.
Really tried to hold off being negative until we got to see the card backs... but I think the fact they changed the backs pushes me out of pre-ordering this box. Could have dealt with the price increase....
But essentially turning it into two different games systems with the new backs just feels slimey.
Guess I am just going to treat the game as a boardgame to pull out when people come over to visit, and only use the stuff I currently have.
Can somebody explain to me how we can have six warbands plus a rivals deck with only 308 cards this season? Even if they don't include any universals with the standalone Warbands thats still already 308 with just the universals from Harrowdeep without any from the second core set. Unless they double up on every universal in the core sets and its only 42 unique ones per set.
Didn't really play the last seasons, if they are reprinting cards from past seasons would they still be part of those 308?
I would think that the new core set in Q2 begins its own numbering system. That would mean means only 4 warbands in season 5 (148 in core + 60 + 60 +32 = 300; just need something unusual to give us the 8 missing cards like 40 in the rivals deck). Speculating is hard when the change is this great.
callidusx3 wrote: I would think that the new core set in Q2 begins its own numbering system. That would mean means only 4 warbands in season 5 (148 in core + 60 + 60 +32 = 300; just need something unusual to give us the 8 missing cards like 40 in the rivals deck). Speculating is hard when the change is this great.
But the roadmaps does say all of that is part of season 5 and would they just start a new card numbering during a season?
NH Gunsmith wrote: Really tried to hold off being negative until we got to see the card backs... but I think the fact they changed the backs pushes me out of pre-ordering this box. Could have dealt with the price increase....
But essentially turning it into two different games systems with the new backs just feels slimey.
Guess I am just going to treat the game as a boardgame to pull out when people come over to visit, and only use the stuff I currently have.
Agreed, I'm not going all in on the negativity, but like you I'm going to hit pause. With my four boxed sets + extra warbands I can consider that a complete board game for playing with friends. What I think I will do is wait to see the whole of season 5 and then weigh it up as a single "expansion" for what I currently have.
Well, it looks like I’m going to be cancelling my Underworlds subscription at my LGS. I have no interest in either of the Warbands in Harrowdeep (nor the new pricing model), and even less interest in a pirate themed Warband.
Hopefully we will be getting Chaos Dwarves, Dawnbringer Crusades (or Order of Azyr or something CoS) this season to peak my interest in it.
I think in the meanwhile I will do what a few of you have already mentioned and treat this like a complete board game. I already have 12 Warbands, so plenty of options.
Nope, Rivals decks are built out of the warband specific cards coming with the warbands going forwards.
Might be that they're going to bring forward the warband specific cards from some of the no longer sold warbands that still have ETB variants for sale. Thundrik's Profiteers, Chosen Axes, Magore's Fiends, etc.
callidusx3 wrote: I would think that the new core set in Q2 begins its own numbering system. That would mean means only 4 warbands in season 5 (148 in core + 60 + 60 +32 = 300; just need something unusual to give us the 8 missing cards like 40 in the rivals deck). Speculating is hard when the change is this great.
But the roadmaps does say all of that is part of season 5 and would they just start a new card numbering during a season?
Well, we are trying to tease hints from WarCom, which is notoriously riddled with errors and misrepresentations. The article does say, "This change gives the design team more opportunities to advance the narrative," which I read to mean that instead of 2 years per setting (e.g. Beastgrave & Direchasm in Ghur), we will get 1 year.
As for the new numbering, we have the numbers in front of us, 308 in Harrowdeep. The article states each warband release and the new core are coming with universals and grand alliance cards. That next core will, at a minimum, introduce 64 faction cards + X non-faction cards. How does one squeeze that into 308? And the article states 2 more warbands are coming after this second core set. If those are part of Harrowdeep's numbering, I'm not seeing how.
callidusx3 wrote: I would think that the new core set in Q2 begins its own numbering system. That would mean means only 4 warbands in season 5 (148 in core + 60 + 60 +32 = 300; just need something unusual to give us the 8 missing cards like 40 in the rivals deck). Speculating is hard when the change is this great.
But the roadmaps does say all of that is part of season 5 and would they just start a new card numbering during a season?
Well, we are trying to tease hints from WarCom, which is notoriously riddled with errors and misrepresentations. The article does say, "This change gives the design team more opportunities to advance the narrative," which I read to mean that instead of 2 years per setting (e.g. Beastgrave & Direchasm in Ghur), we will get 1 year.
As for the new numbering, we have the numbers in front of us, 308 in Harrowdeep. The article states each warband release and the new core are coming with universals and grand alliance cards. That next core will, at a minimum, introduce 64 faction cards + X non-faction cards. How does one squeeze that into 308? And the article states 2 more warbands are coming after this second core set. If those are part of Harrowdeep's numbering, I'm not seeing how.
I think the most likely option is that the second core set isn't actually part of season 5 like they say and is instead start of season 6. This way it would make sense for the 308 to just be Harrowdeep, two warbands and the Rivals deck (would come out to 32 universal cards plus 32 faction cards per individual warband if Rivals deck also has 32 cards) without starting a new number circle during the season.
Only question this way would be if the rotation will still be last two seasons, that would only be one year this way.
Kanluwen wrote: Nope, Rivals decks are built out of the warband specific cards coming with the warbands going forwards.
Might be that they're going to bring forward the warband specific cards from some of the no longer sold warbands that still have ETB variants for sale. Thundrik's Profiteers, Chosen Axes, Magore's Fiends, etc.
Not just warband specific cards, but pre-construction decks. For example, all season 1 and 2 warbands can only use the Silent Menace deck atm, until more rivals pre-construction decks come out.
All rivals cards are good for championship though. I can see rivals being good for new players, but not making an impact on championship or competitive play.
My guess is the 2nd core box will be like the condemors vs moonlight box. Less full expansions, but just a couple of warbands and some cards. But, we'll have to see.
So I know basically nothing about this game, but I was considering getting the new box, as I really like the new Stormcast models and I though it might be a nice low-prep game to play with friends.
However, this changing cards thing confuses me. I think I have the cards for the very first Stormcast team (and the models too) and I was also contemplating to getting the Fish Elves or the Vampires or even both. But do these have different style of cards and they're not compatible with the new box? I don't get it...
Crimson wrote: So I know basically nothing about this game, but I was considering getting the new box, as I really like the new Stormcast models and I though it might be a nice low-prep game to play with friends.
However, this changing cards thing confuses me. I think I have the cards for the very first Stormcast team (and the models too) and I was also contemplating to getting the Fish Elves or the Vampires or even both. But do these have different style of cards and they're not compatible with the new box? I don't get it...
If you mean the changing card backs, the issue should not be too burdensome to deal with. Opaque sleeves for your 32 cards will do. However, if you are treating this as a boardgame and using the Rivals format (i.e. each warband plays only with its 32 faction specific cards), then the card back change is a non-issue.
PS - The warbands from the first two seasons (Shadespire & Nightvault) did not come with complete, 32 card faction decks. Your first Stormcast warband would need a handful of cards to fill out its deck, making it not viable for true Rivals format (but I'm sure its fine for casual play).
H.B.M.C. wrote: So they jacked the price of the starter box, and are now doing 2 starter boxes per year?
Incredible.
bUt Gw HaS cHaNgEd!!1
On the other hand, underworlds players tend to want to collect all the warbands, and it is cheaper to buy boxes of two warbands than individually.
It's certainly a shift, but let's wait and see what the mid season core box is before drawing too many conclusions. I'm curious to see how this new season will play out.
One of the worst things about Warhammer underworlds is that each new season adds new core rules. So In order to be upto date on the rules people have to buy a core set.
Real shame as Warhammer underworlds is a great arena combat game, that GW seem to be milking as much out of it as they can... that said the rival format sounds like something the game should have had from day one. Pitching it as a game designed solely for competive play had I imagine turned a good number of people away. Now with a more casual style of play, this may help get people into it.
stonehorse wrote: One of the worst things about Warhammer underworlds is that each new season adds new core rules. So In order to be upto date on the rules people have to buy a core set.
I do agree that WU should have had a consistent set of core rules, but it was a work in progress in a space (collectible boardgame) that GW had no experience with. However, I do very much like the idea that each Realm that GW visits can introduce rules specific to that Realm (e.g. Gloom for Ulgu, Primacy for Ghur).
stonehorse wrote: Real shame as Warhammer underworlds is a great arena combat game, that GW seem to be milking as much out of it as they can... that said the rival format sounds like something the game should have had from day one. Pitching it as a game designed solely for competive play had I imagine turned a good number of people away. Now with a more casual style of play, this may help get people into it.
I agree that it is a great arena combat game, quite possibly the best of a crowded field. Rivals is great as an introductory format or a "complete boardgame experience" format. I believe it will supersede Vanguard as the intro format.
Direchasm rulebook are free to download from GW site, but the site is currently under some rennovation so the link and some other stuff doesn't seem to work.
porkuslime wrote: So, Rivals is "premade, stand alone decks" that represent what a warband is like, racially and playstyle wise?
Do we know what era these cards/warbands will cover, like, new card style for old warbands?
If it is NOTHING but a reprint, then long time WU players might ONLY care if the card styles match the new cards..
My understanding is that it's a glorified way of playing only with cards that come with a warband's box.
So previously when you bought a warband you had their warband specific cards and the new universals, but almost immediately you'd be mixing in universals from the core box, other warbands, etc. Rivals just restricts you to 'what came in the box' - basically it removes the deck building element.
It works like this: each player gets a pre-built deck, either by selecting the warband-specific cards for a particular warband or by picking one of the pre-built decks such as Silent Menace, which you can even combine with older warbands from the first few seasons of Warhammer Underworlds.* You won’t have to build a deck – and because both sides now have a deck of equal power, the game will be decided by skill rather than the size of your card collection.
porkuslime wrote: So, it is like premade decklists? no new content like new cards..
Think I need to get the Arena set asap..
The new box has the premade decks and also new universal cards. There about 150 cards in the new box rather than the 100 or so in the old ones. Going forward there will be two ways of playing the game. The rivals mode will eliminate the need to buy every set and is beginner friendly in theory, but a lot of the tournaments will still use the old format.
porkuslime wrote: So, Rivals is "premade, stand alone decks" that represent what a warband is like, racially and playstyle wise?
Do we know what era these cards/warbands will cover, like, new card style for old warbands?
If it is NOTHING but a reprint, then long time WU players might ONLY care if the card styles match the new cards..
It's playing with either just the faction cards which come with the warband, or using a preconstructed deck. The faction cards are not new, literally just using the 32 faction cards you get in the box for each warband. Nothing is being reprinted.
There will be no decks specifically for season 1/2 warbands, they have to use the universal Pre-made decks (only Silent Menace so far), as they don't have enough faction-only cards to make a deck with.
I can see rivals being good for new players, but it's going to be hit-or-miss competitively. Some factions (like Wyrmspat for example), have just awful faction cards, or (like Grymwatch) have amazing faction cards. It's going to be a pretty unbalanced competitive setting. There are quite a few warbands which need the universal cards to make up for their poor faction cards, and the Silent Menace deck doesn't work for pretty much all of the season 1/2 warbands (or as it's own deck at all, too many hard and situational objectives).
But, I am excited for more universal cards for Championship play.
I can see rivals being good for new players, but it's going to be hit-or-miss competitively. Some factions (like Wyrmspat for example), have just awful faction cards, or (like Grymwatch) have amazing faction cards. It's going to be a pretty unbalanced competitive setting. There are quite a few warbands which need the universal cards to make up for their poor faction cards, and the Silent Menace deck doesn't work for pretty much all of the season 1/2 warbands (or as it's own deck at all, too many hard and situational objectives).
The good news is that with Rivals now being a thing, everything released from this point onwards should have a somewhat balanced pre-constructed deck. Also from what I've seen the Direchasm decks are fairly well balanced too, so it's possible they had this in mind when they were creating those boxes.
Beastgrave is the weird one, as you point out - it has legal Rivals decks in every faction box but they vary a lot in power level.
I'd have actually rather seen them do the balance work and create decklists for each of the season 1-3 factions that were their "Rivals" decks, that included most of the faction cards but with a few swapped out for universal cards where needed. Preferably in way that they could all be built at once like the decks someone put together here: https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/17376-best-decks-for-all-warbands/
I do wonder as well what the universal rivals decks they will come out with in the future will be like, as presumably, they will want folks to try and use them. Maybe they will be themed towards playstyles or some other factor. Silent Menace is a very aggro oriented deck.
Also, I wonder when we'll see the next FAR list and faq/errata. There are certainly some direchasm cards which should be restricted, and we could use an errata to nerf the wraithstalkers, and an faq to clarify some cards and mechanics.
Pre orders include the previous seasons warbands without cards including Skaeth’s Wild Hunt, The Dread Pageant, Myari's Purifiers and Grashrak's Despoliers as separate kits for the first time. £20 each direct only.
Rivals is just newspeak for warbands not coming with universal cards anymore. A way of marketing a price hike via halving the product as a Good Thing(TM)
Why y'all be buying cardless warbands direct for the same price you could get warbands with cards from an online retailer tho?
lord_blackfang wrote: Rivals is just newspeak for warbands not coming with universal cards anymore. A way of marketing a price hike via halving the product as a Good Thing(TM)
Why y'all be buying cardless warbands direct for the same price you could get warbands with cards from an online retailer tho?
Every warband other than the Direchasm ones are now discontinued so once the online retailers sell out of the older stock the only way to still get the minis is direct order, for now Beastgrave boxes at £18 discounted is a better buy but they'll sellout sooner rather than later plus at least now the 4 core set warbands are available separately.
Thinking about it, with seemingly just 4 warbands per "season" or half season or whatever it is, and the new focus on Grand Alliance cards, it stands to reason we'll get one warband from each Grand Alliance in the 4, which narrows down what the two remaining ones for this season will be.
Also makes me wonder more about the how the cards are being distributed. If the Warbands have *just* faction cards then that means the Harrowdeep box needs Grand Alliance cards for all four alliances. Which would be odd, as that would mean the box had cards that you literally couldn't use without buying other warbands. That's distinctly not GW.
Which makes me think the two other warbands will at least have the Grand Alliance cards for their respective alliance in addition to the rivals deck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DaveC wrote: Pre orders include the previous seasons warbands without cards including Skaeth’s Wild Hunt, The Dread Pageant, Myari's Purifiers and Grashrak's Despoliers as separate kits for the first time. £20 each direct only.
Thanks for posting that, I'm painting all the Beastgrave stuff at the moment and was getting quite frustrated that the 360 images had been purged from GW's site!
DaveC wrote: Pre orders include the previous seasons warbands without cards including Skaeth’s Wild Hunt, The Dread Pageant, Myari's Purifiers and Grashrak's Despoliers as separate kits for the first time. £20 each direct only.
Thats nice, I've lost my wild hunt and been trying to replace just the models.
DaveC wrote: Pre orders include the previous seasons warbands without cards including Skaeth’s Wild Hunt, The Dread Pageant, Myari's Purifiers and Grashrak's Despoliers as separate kits for the first time. £20 each direct only.
Noticed that, which is nice. Was there a sheet leaking the prices or you going off a guesstimate conversion as other warbands sit around the £15 mark...
deano2099 wrote: Thinking about it, with seemingly just 4 warbands per "season" or half season or whatever it is, and the new focus on Grand Alliance cards, it stands to reason we'll get one warband from each Grand Alliance in the 4, which narrows down what the two remaining ones for this season will be.
Also makes me wonder more about the how the cards are being distributed. If the Warbands have *just* faction cards then that means the Harrowdeep box needs Grand Alliance cards for all four alliances. Which would be odd, as that would mean the box had cards that you literally couldn't use without buying other warbands. That's distinctly not GW.
Which makes me think the two other warbands will at least have the Grand Alliance cards for their respective alliance in addition to the rivals deck.
The leaked unboxing video out of Italy from 2 days ago confirmed that there are 9 cards for each Grand Alliance in the starter (36 overall). I believe a WarCom article also noted 36 GA cards.
The roadmap article confirmed that the warband expansions this season will contain universal cards (and perhaps Grand Alliance cards). Though I had hoped GW would move away from it, I am expecting the same 60 card packs to continue with each warband expansion.
DaveC wrote: Pre orders include the previous seasons warbands without cards including Skaeth’s Wild Hunt, The Dread Pageant, Myari's Purifiers and Grashrak's Despoliers as separate kits for the first time. £20 each direct only.
Noticed that, which is nice. Was there a sheet leaking the prices or you going off a guesstimate conversion as other warbands sit around the £15 mark...
$65NZ is the equivalent of £20 on the UK site so they’ve upped the price by £5 compared to older sets.
I honestly think that the larger issue is the 6-months season format. If they keep the 2 blocks per rotation format, that means your cards will be phased out in a year.
Well, I put my order in for harrowdeep and I'm getting the acrylic tokens. Pretty excited for the box to come and mechanics this season. Glad I saved my warhammer+ voucher for this.
Looked though all the card and warband reviews this morning and I'm stoked for season 5.
Yikes, and as far as the rules for the warbands they are looking so hot either for new players either. I really think GW shot themselves in the foot getting so greedy with the unnecessary changes with the release format and card changes. The whole point of Underworlds is that it was more accessible compared to playing 40k/AoS, but I guess GW can't help themselves.
All of the changes they announced and the reviews have caused our entire gaming group to dump WH: UW like a rock.
The new €80 pricetag was also badly received and everybody just went in on a non-GW game for our "Covid is over campaign" (Wild West Exodus btw).
All our cards are out of rotation now because nobody played during the lockdowns anyway. To return to a game with almost none of your old stuff being valid anymore, alongside a new price increase AND your stuff becoming invalid even faster really was a bonehead move by GW. I don't even want to organise a league for a game that treats its playerbase this way.
Underworlds was the one Nu!GW game I genuinely enjoyed. Whilst it doesn't surprise me, I am disappointed to hear they're blowing their foot off with this season.
The price increase is definitely not a good move but the bad reviews everyone is talking about is the same one from can you roll a crit who has a particular beef with one of the rules.
From the comments section, it seems not many people agree with him.
He also barely mentions rivals mode. A rivals mode done well could fix a lot of the bloat and obselesence problems he talks about.
When someone starts a review by saying I'm trying to be positive, you know they really aren't and it colours everything in the review.
Lets face it if the set was £40-50 the complaints wouldn't be there. The price rise is about the only real strong negative.
The shift in cards is more likely welcome since the bloat in the system is a pain and honestly that's always been a huge issue ever since the first game where they put unique generic cards into race specific packs.
GW wanted it to be a "collect them all" game but have steady moved both in concept and price, away from that market.
I wonder if the issue is they started it as a "casual people will collect them" and its turned out more a "existing customers predominantly buy them and most just buy the models for their army(ies)" angle
Overread wrote: Lets face it if the set was £40-50 the complaints wouldn't be there. The price rise is about the only real strong negative.
The shift in cards is more likely welcome since the bloat in the system is a pain and honestly that's always been a huge issue ever since the first game where they put unique generic cards into race specific packs.
GW wanted it to be a "collect them all" game but have steady moved both in concept and price, away from that market.
I wonder if the issue is they started it as a "casual people will collect them" and its turned out more a "existing customers predominantly buy them and most just buy the models for their army(ies)" angle
So the price, product and concept have shifted.
I would still complain at the price you listed, as the set still breaks a promise made my GW, where warbands and their faction cards won't be invalidated. The changing of card backs is GW essentially trying to write off the first four seasons of the game, and get a redo. The rules themselves are a huge step backwards for competitive players with how the discarding of your initial hand works, and objectives now starting as gloom tokens destroy objective play making it even more aggro focused than before.
The system wasn't really bloated since previous season rotate out of the Champions format, very similar to the Standard format for Magic. While there was a complaint that people had to buy every warband to "be competitive", an easy fix for Harrowdeep going forwards would have been to remove universal cards from the warband boxes and release a series of universal card packs like The Essential Card Pack and Silent Menace for each season, since by next October the Direchasm universals would be rotated out. I would have been far happier with that than having GW go out of their way to try and split the game into two eras with the new card backs.
The game never started as a "casual people will collect them" type game as you said, as it has been marketed as "The Ultimate Competitive Miniatures Game" from GW since day one. Even though a lot of AoS and Warcry players have picked up the boxes of minis to use as characters, there is/was a massively healthy Underworlds competitive player base (outside of the U.S.). The game has been embraced by people looking for a fairly solid competitive arena combat miniatures game, the type of game that has caught of since Deadzone, Aristeia, Godtear, ect, and Magic players due to the tactical positioning along with dice based combat and deck building mechanics.
I'm absolutely stumped as to why anyone thinks Rivals will fix balance.
We've had Rivals since literal day 1. Every single warband that ever existed was packaged with a Rivals deck. It was even wrapped seperatly from the other cards. Thinking Rivals will fix balance means thinking all the stat cards are balanced and all the default decks are balanced and somehow all the imbalance randomly ended up in the generic cards.
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm absolutely stumped as to why anyone thinks Rivals will fix balance.
We've had Rivals since literal day 1. Every single warband that ever existed was packaged with a Rivals deck. It was even wrapped seperatly from the other cards. Thinking Rivals will fix balance means thinking all the stat cards are balanced and all the default decks are balanced and somehow all the imbalance randomly ended up in the generic cards.
It doesn't fix balance at all. Balance came from being able to remove the poor cards in your faction deck for universal cards. All it does is restrict season 1 and 2 warbands from ever seeing play since they didn't come with full 32 card faction decks.
GW now has the ball when it comes to trying to make faction decks worth playing, and while the Direchasm warbands have honestly been fairly good... the first two faction decks we see for the Harrowdeep warbands... are bad. Really bad. Almost as bad as the faction deck for Storm Of Celestus from the Two Player Starter.
We played a four player "Rivals" game yesterday... and the only ones who had fun were the Kainan and Wraithcreeper players.
The Storm Of Celestus and Blade Coven (myself) player... might as well have not participated due to how back the faction cards for both of those warbands are without using universals.
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm absolutely stumped as to why anyone thinks Rivals will fix balance.
We've had Rivals since literal day 1. Every single warband that ever existed was packaged with a Rivals deck. It was even wrapped seperatly from the other cards. Thinking Rivals will fix balance means thinking all the stat cards are balanced and all the default decks are balanced and somehow all the imbalance randomly ended up in the generic cards.
Did anyone say rivals fixes balance? Point me to that quote. In my post I said that a good rivals mode has the potential to help with obselesence and bloat. I understand that season 1 and 2 warbands can't be played right now but it would be easy for gw to put out a card pack that brings those old warbands up to date.
That said some users are saying that rivals is not well implemented here, which is fair enough.
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm absolutely stumped as to why anyone thinks Rivals will fix balance.
We've had Rivals since literal day 1. Every single warband that ever existed was packaged with a Rivals deck. It was even wrapped seperatly from the other cards. Thinking Rivals will fix balance means thinking all the stat cards are balanced and all the default decks are balanced and somehow all the imbalance randomly ended up in the generic cards.
Courtesy of GW:
"It works like this: each player gets a pre-built deck, either by selecting the warband-specific cards for a particular warband or by picking one of the pre-built decks such as Silent Menace, which you can even combine with older warbands from the first few seasons of Warhammer Underworlds.* You won’t have to build a deck – and because both sides now have a deck of equal power, the game will be decided by skill rather than the size of your card collection."
According to GW, rivals fixes the balance issues as all faction decks are of equal power....... hahahahahahahahahahaha. Wyrmspat would like a word with the marketing department of GW. And the new warbands are a poor representation of "decks having equal power", when they get absolutely dunked on by Direchasm warbands.
NH Gunsmith wrote:
The game never started as a "casual people will collect them" type game as you said, as it has been marketed as "The Ultimate Competitive Miniatures Game" from GW since day one. Even though a lot of AoS and Warcry players have picked up the boxes of minis to use as characters, there is/was a massively healthy Underworlds competitive player base (outside of the U.S.). The game has been embraced by people looking for a fairly solid competitive arena combat miniatures game, the type of game that has caught of since Deadzone, Aristeia, Godtear, ect, and Magic players due to the tactical positioning along with dice based combat and deck building mechanics.
The "competitive mini game" was part of it, but it was also aimed at the board game market - just look at the reviews of Shadespire and Nightvault on YouTube - lots of board game review channels covering it that don't normally cover GW stuff. It's also the reason for coloured plastic and push fit models. No hobby experience required if you're not interested in that side of things.
lord_blackfang wrote:I'm absolutely stumped as to why anyone thinks Rivals will fix balance.
We've had Rivals since literal day 1. Every single warband that ever existed was packaged with a Rivals deck. It was even wrapped seperatly from the other cards. Thinking Rivals will fix balance means thinking all the stat cards are balanced and all the default decks are balanced and somehow all the imbalance randomly ended up in the generic cards.
Outside of the starter boxes there were no pre-built decks for the season 1 and 2 warbands. Plus Rivals was never a supported format before, so balance never mattered. Yeah you could grab the Beastgrave and Direchasm decks and play a few games quickly out of the box, but that wasn't the intended way to play outside of learning games - no-one was promising balance. The decks just needed to be playable. Now it's an actual format, in theory more effort should be put in to balancing the decks. Especially if they're hoping to see this format played at events and tournaments. But Harrowdeep isn't promising in respect to that.
I do wonder if they're going to allow themselves to issue updates to Rivals decks. I don't see how it can possibly be an ongoing format if not. You release one over-powered faction deck and that's the only faction anyone ever plays with. But you can't exactly ban or restrict cards when there's no deckbuilding - the only easy options are banning an whole warband, or saying you can use the warband but only with the generic decks. The only other option, and the best one, is to release updated Rivals deck lists that have some universal cards swapped in.
I do wonder if this would have worked better like the old Starwars LCG or Marvel Champions - where you get half of each deck as a faction deck, and then you pair it with another set half deck made up of universal/GA cards, on different themes (aggro, control, etc). You could still package each warband with a playable deck, but you could split that deck in half and swap the universal half around with other warbands.
If every faction deck was a bit more evenly balanced originally.
The older warbands could have like a list with the four cards you need to add to make their set ready for Rivals.
Either 4 that work for all - which would be tough - or just the 80 or however many extra cards from the box just had 4 that work really well for each warband.
What do we know about this Silent Menace deck they mention?
Do you just use that deck on its own? I can see that being possible
Danny76 wrote: If every faction deck was a bit more evenly balanced originally.
The older warbands could have like a list with the four cards you need to add to make their set ready for Rivals.
Either 4 that work for all - which would be tough - or just the 80 or however many extra cards from the box just had 4 that work really well for each warband.
What do we know about this Silent Menace deck they mention?
Do you just use that deck on its own? I can see that being possible
I'd be very surprised if relic is adopted for any sort of competition play, it's basically there to let folks who just started play at an even level.
I will say, I much preferred the vanguard format, as it limited the card pool, but kept deckbuilding. But, I'm only really going to play championship unless I'm introducing someone to the game.
I wouldn't mind trying out the silent menace deck with my Profiteers though in rivals, that could maybe work (if we ever do that). Everyone in my club who plays underworlds ordered harrowdeep, so we are just going to keep going with what we are doing lol.
My favourite format I've seen, which I'd love to try at an event is relic, but you can only use universals from the season your warband was released in. That'd be cool.
I find it interesting that the card pack and warband have stayed at £12 and £25.
I wonder if that is because I wasn't alone in avoiding the £65 starter. Hopefully it is and they will do a stock clearance at £50 at some point. (They did do this with Direchasm but from £50 to £40 I seem to remember).
I notice Direchasm isn't on the website, probably as they don't want the £50 starter sitting right next to the £65 starter.
Is this the only underworlds thread? Seems like no posts in two months would suggest they've killed a lot of interest in this game with that price rise.
P.S If not clear, I'm still not happy with the price of the new starter.
Direchasm isn't the current Core Box, so they probably wouldn't be adverting it anymore for folks to buy.
I ordered both the card pack and warband today, excited to use the new cards in my decks.
my group has really enjoyed the Harrowdeep changes.
The New errata's and FAR list has me really excited about deckbuilding now too, adding keywords to older warbands brings a lot more life into the legacy bands, I'm pretty keen to play my Farstriders again, now that they are all hunters.
Yeah, there hasn't been much buzz around my gaming group for the game since the new expansion but in saying that, I did finally get my first few games in using the Direchasm starter.
The price bump really killed it for quite a few interested parties.
It's possible the price bump really was down to cost of materials in terms of cardboard at the moment then. Or increase freight costs getting that stuff from China.
(And yeah, GW should absolutely of just absorbed that increase as their margins on plastic are *so* big, but that was never going to happen)
I mean, I own every Underworlds release and am still keeping up with my collection for the moment, but who knows for how long that'll last.
Beyond just generic price increases, they've all come with no real increase in the product contents. They've also increased the number of add-on products per season (we now have the possibility of boards, upgrade packs, and rivals decks) and are now adding another expensive Core Box and two more warbands per season.
Which is all doubly funny because GW originally described this game at it's Adepticon debut as being "affordable to collect". While this is the textbook definition of "milking it".
And for LCG-esq games like this, the most passionate fans who will keep playing and recruiting new players are also likely trying to collect the full range/seasons, making it harder and harder to stay up to date.
Also to add insult to injury GW changed the card backs from Harrowdeep onwards which means I now need to re-sleeve 4 seasons worth of cards with opaque sleeves and cant look at the card back art anymore
Jack Flask wrote: I mean, I own every Underworlds release and am still keeping up with my collection for the moment, but who knows for how long that'll last.
Beyond just generic price increases, they've all come with no real increase in the product contents. They've also increased the number of add-on products per season (we now have the possibility of boards, upgrade packs, and rivals decks) and are now adding another expensive Core Box and two more warbands per season.
Which is all doubly funny because GW originally described this game at it's Adepticon debut as being "affordable to collect". While this is the textbook definition of "milking it".
And for LCG-esq games like this, the most passionate fans who will keep playing and recruiting new players are also likely trying to collect the full range/seasons, making it harder and harder to stay up to date.
Also to add insult to injury GW changed the card backs from Harrowdeep onwards which means I now need to re-sleeve 4 seasons worth of cards with opaque sleeves and cant look at the card back art anymore
...yeah, Harrowdeep did do a good job of curbing my enthusiasm towards the game. Kind of glad that the people who jumped in with me didn't go anywhere neat as nuts as I did.
GaroRobe wrote: Why haven't they revealed or at least teased the next warband? Usually when a new warband drops, they at least show off one model for the next one.
Did we even get a timeline like in season three?
LVO is next week.
We also don't know anything about the quarterly release of KT, blood bowl, or necromunda (Q1)
I expect this, something eldar and the next AoS thing in this preview... although in the end they only showed marines.
Also to note, Q2 will have three warbands rather than just one...
According to the roadmap (which only shows out to Q2 sadly), there will be one warband box (something Lightning, probably SCE) and a new core set with two unknown warbands.
callidusx3 wrote: The rumor, which has been confirmed by one former playtester, is that the next warband expansion is a Necromancer + Zombies.
Further, the next box will be the starter for season 6, the second in Ulgu. Two season a year now, each year in a new Realm.
That would make absolutely no sense...
If you're talking about the next core box in Q2 then Season 5 would consist of just Harrowdeep, Blackpowder's Buccaneers, a Rivals deck, and the one unteased Q2 warband.
That'd come nowhere near a typical season, much less GW's claim of "two additional warbands per post-Harrowdeep" season.
It's actually all starting to make sense now. Whether the new starter is a new season or not is only really relevant for tournament card rotation.
What seems likely is that is the Q2 core forms part of the current season and is the "two extra warbands" - coupled with the fact that the core boxes jumped in price while the warbands didn't, it seems like the extra core box is a way to sell two warbands and two new boards at a higher price. I'd imagine we won't get a board expansion this time around.
I'm 50/50 on the card pack at the moment. I don't really deck build, I keep a deck assembled for each warband, the earlier ones based of some I found online (with some tweaks), and now just using the Rivals decks. If the Rivals decks are decent enough (by which I mostly mean: fun and showing off the warband core mechanics) then there will be no need for tweaks so I don't really need any new cards... but then I have bought everything else released so far (except scenery and sleeves) so I'm not sure about pulling the cord on giving up having *everything*. Especially if I ever wanted to cash out.
deano2099 wrote: It's actually all starting to make sense now. Whether the new starter is a new season or not is only really relevant for tournament card rotation.
What seems likely is that is the Q2 core forms part of the current season and is the "two extra warbands" - coupled with the fact that the core boxes jumped in price while the warbands didn't, it seems like the extra core box is a way to sell two warbands and two new boards at a higher price. I'd imagine we won't get a board expansion this time around.
I had originally wondered that myself, but GW explicitly said otherwise when they revealed the roadmap. Here's the exact unedited (other than bolding the relevant bits) quote from the community post:
Warhammer Community wrote:Longtime Warhammer Underworlds players may notice that this is a little different from previous seasons. Going forward, there will be two core sets released each year – each including an all-new pair of warbands, fresh board designs, universal cards, and more.
And that’s not all! This is all in addition to two further warband releases per season, each with a ready-made Rivals deck, as well as more universal and grand alliance cards to open up even more deck-building opportunities in Championship format. This change gives the design team more opportunities to advance the narrative, introduce different mechanics, and tighten up the core rules to continually improve the game.
Shadespire and Nightvault have 8 total warbands (core box + 6 "loose" warbands)
Beastgrave and Direchasm also had 8 warbands in their season, but technically 10 total warbands were released during their run (because of Dreadfane and the 2021 starter set)
So Harrowdeep onwards sounds like it will be a season of 2x2 core box warbands and 8 loose warbands, for a total of 12.
So potentially the second core box is meant to fill the slot of Dreadfane/2021Starter (but at presumably ~$100 ) however we also don't have any assurance that GW won't release more non-season side warbands as well
deano2099 wrote: It's actually all starting to make sense now. Whether the new starter is a new season or not is only really relevant for tournament card rotation.
What seems likely is that is the Q2 core forms part of the current season and is the "two extra warbands" - coupled with the fact that the core boxes jumped in price while the warbands didn't, it seems like the extra core box is a way to sell two warbands and two new boards at a higher price. I'd imagine we won't get a board expansion this time around.
I had originally wondered that myself, but GW explicitly said otherwise when they revealed the roadmap. Here's the exact unedited (other than bolding the relevant bits) quote from the community post:
Warhammer Community wrote:Longtime Warhammer Underworlds players may notice that this is a little different from previous seasons. Going forward, there will be two core sets released each year – each including an all-new pair of warbands, fresh board designs, universal cards, and more.
And that’s not all! This is all in addition to two further warband releases per season, each with a ready-made Rivals deck, as well as more universal and grand alliance cards to open up even more deck-building opportunities in Championship format. This change gives the design team more opportunities to advance the narrative, introduce different mechanics, and tighten up the core rules to continually improve the game.
Shadespire and Nightvault have 8 total warbands (core box + 6 "loose" warbands)
Beastgrave and Direchasm also had 8 warbands in their season, but technically 10 total warbands were released during their run (because of Dreadfane and the 2021 starter set)
So Harrowdeep onwards sounds like it will be a season of 2x2 core box warbands and 8 loose warbands, for a total of 12.
So potentially the second core box is meant to fill the slot of Dreadfane/2021Starter (but at presumably ~$100 ) however we also don't have any assurance that GW won't release more non-season side warbands as well
There’s been 3 warbands this season so far (incl Blackpowder’s). Plus 3 for the teased lightning + core box in Q2. I do wonder how they would release the remaining 6 in time before the next season.
More likely, imho, it‘s now 2 seasons per year. Each with a core box plus 2 extra warbands (ie back to 8 warbands per year). And if you read the text carefully, that might be exactly what they said.
Huh, yeah thinking about it, while that's not how anyone read it at the time, that makes perfect sense.
So still 8 warbands per year but faster rotation of core cards in tournaments. And two of your warbands in an expensive box with extra boards. Hopefully there's at least some interesting mechanics in the new core box and it's not just literally the same tokens all over again plus boards and the two warbands...
If this is the case I'd also guess it's one warband from each Grand Alliance per season? Does that scan with what we have so far? It'd be weird if some of the GA cards in Harrowdeep didn't work with any warband that season!
callidusx3 wrote: The rumor, which has been confirmed by one former playtester, is that the next warband expansion is a Necromancer + Zombies.
Further, the next box will be the starter for season 6, the second in Ulgu. Two season a year now, each year in a new Realm.
That would make absolutely no sense...
If you're talking about the next core box in Q2 then Season 5 would consist of just Harrowdeep, Blackpowder's Buccaneers, a Rivals deck, and the one unteased Q2 warband.
That'd come nowhere near a typical season, much less GW's claim of "two additional warbands per post-Harrowdeep" season.
Perhaps, we will know for sure in the next 2-3 months. But I think that the statement "two additional warbands per post-Harrowdeep" refers to Blackpowder and the unteased Q2 warband.
Though my opinion lines up with the "confirmed" rumor, this does not mean that I think GW will change how it rotates the available card pool in Championship. I still think that (up to) 2 years worth of releases will be viable at a time.
There’s been 3 warbands this season so far (incl Blackpowder’s). Plus 3 for the teased lightning + core box in Q2. I do wonder how they would release the remaining 6 in time before the next season.
More likely, imho, it‘s now 2 seasons per year. Each with a core box plus 2 extra warbands (ie back to 8 warbands per year). And if you read the text carefully, that might be exactly what they said.
The way I had seen it was that Harrowdeep was announced at the end of 2021 and each season has (to my memory) ran about a year long. So I was thinking they'd have 3 warbands in Q3 and 3 in Q4. Packed certainly, however 8 warbands per year is already a pretty constant pace so moving to 12 would certainly feel that way.
After re-reading the Community post probably 3 times, per your prompting, I now understand what you and Callidusx3 mean. Personally, if that is what GW means then I would not have worded/explained it the way they did. Both by referencing previous seasons which followed a consistent pattern of 8 warbands per season and by putting Core Box two into the Harrowdeep roadmap, it makes the additions sound like they apply to the previous concept of a season rather than a new shorter version.
However this is not the first time they've cryptically worded something which should be clear, and it now makes sense why the roadmap doesn't go past Core Box 2.
Perhaps, we will know for sure in the next 2-3 months. But I think that the statement "two additional warbands per post-Harrowdeep" refers to Blackpowder and the unteased Q2 warband.
Though my opinion lines up with the "confirmed" rumor, this does not mean that I think GW will change how it rotates the available card pool in Championship. I still think that (up to) 2 years worth of releases will be viable at a time.
Yes, I understand what you were saying now. Apologies for my earlier pointed incredulity.
I've come around to your reading of it since I'd rather they didn't drastically increase the number of things needed to keep a collection for this game...
deano2099 wrote:Huh, yeah thinking about it, while that's not how anyone read it at the time, that makes perfect sense.
So still 8 warbands per year but faster rotation of core cards in tournaments. And two of your warbands in an expensive box with extra boards. Hopefully there's at least some interesting mechanics in the new core box and it's not just literally the same tokens all over again plus boards and the two warbands...
If this is the case I'd also guess it's one warband from each Grand Alliance per season? Does that scan with what we have so far? It'd be weird if some of the GA cards in Harrowdeep didn't work with any warband that season!
Yeah, I think if it keeps to 8 warbands per year (even with 2 slightly more expensive warbands due to the second box contents) then I'll be a lot less irritated.
The other negative beyond just cards rotating faster will be if GW decides to keep their current policy of only selling two seasons at a time.
Ok so how does this work? He’s a zombie so presumably he’s resurrected by death magic. Does he need electricity to use an arm that’s not his? Can necromancy not make a giant composite zombie
Huh. I like this, but steampunk undead are kinda coming out of nowhere?! Won't look that out of place with the new zombies, the Cursed City undertaker dude etc., tho
(I mean, since at least sky dwarves I find it easier to rationalize AoS as a steampunk setting where most factions just decide to *not* use technology because their magic/brute force provides better results, anyway, so why not. Also, looking at Skaven since WHFB, sooo ...)
Well Frankenstein being a 19th century text and steampunk being generally a homage to 19th century 'futurisms', it's not really a difference, isn't it ^^
GaroRobe wrote: Ok so how does this work? He’s a zombie so presumably he’s resurrected by death magic. Does he need electricity to use an arm that’s not his? Can necromancy not make a giant composite zombie
I think necromancy in Warhammer is broad enough to do that, had the designers opted for that. But since they obviously want Frankenstein undead to be a thing in AoS, zappiness has to play into it somehow, for obvious reasons. Might be just a different (sub-)discipline of necromancy, or maybe it comes with the benefit of giving the zombie the equivalent of a power fist.
So the rumoured zombie team will be a bit different than the usual zombies. Maybe their 'necromancer' leader is more of a crazy scientist type rather than a sorcerer?
Ok so the first guy is named Coyl (coil). Let’s see if we can brainstorm old school electricity words that GW will cleverly name the rest of the group.
This looks pretty cool and I would definitely pick up a Frankenstein style warband. That is presuming they don't have to have the Harrowdeep mechanics to be used, because I skipped that (uninspiring and relatively expensive) set. Intrigued to see the starter set after this guy.
GaroRobe wrote: Ok so the first guy is named Coyl (coil). Let’s see if we can brainstorm old school electricity words that GW will cleverly name the rest of the group.
That's unexpected.
Although I hope the leader isn't just some dude who went the Frankenstein route instead of studying Necromancy for some reason, like an evil Dwarf Engineer or something.
Coyl is an arcwalker, animated by the Force Dynamic, an arcano-electric force that flows through all things.
Gee, I wonder if the Force Dynamic is a motive force?
I was especially glad to see that the new zombie is generating power by the modal interactions of magneto-reluctance and capacitive duractance. I was a bit concerned that they would still be generating power using the relative motion of conductors and fluxes as the previous generation of machines did.
Togusa wrote: So will these end up in Soulblight? Or are they their own thing?
Underworlds warbands get AoS rules as well but if you mean arcwalkers who knows but UW is a way to do stuff they wouldn’t normally do in AoS so it’s probably unlikely
This set has been rumoured for months. It is definitely a Dr Frankenstein style necromancer and his zombies.
The second starter will features Malerion's Aelves. There is also a skaven warband and a witch hunter warband on the way.
OK mini but dumb concept - having just one giant arm he's going to just tip over easily and have a lot of back pain. Less threatening than a normal zombie IMO.
Schmapdi wrote: OK mini but dumb concept - having just one giant arm he's going to just tip over easily and have a lot of back pain. Less threatening than a normal zombie IMO.
Something tells me that zombies, even electro-zombies, aren't all that bothered about back pain...
Schmapdi wrote: OK mini but dumb concept - having just one giant arm he's going to just tip over easily and have a lot of back pain. Less threatening than a normal zombie IMO.
Something tells me that zombies, even electro-zombies, aren't all that bothered about back pain...
Just saw a cover for GW Warhammer Fantasy RPG:Stefan and Steel. On the cover it looked like KO vs Vampire Counts, but as with most GW art it should be based off of models. The Vampire faction looked like a zombie riding on a giant bat (not the fellbat) and winged zombies/vampire. I wonder if those are new models yet to be released, either as part of this warband or as an expansion to the Flesh Eater courts. The winged zombies could be more “mad scientist” works.
Theophony wrote: Just saw a cover for GW Warhammer Fantasy RPG:Stefan and Steel. On the cover it looked like KO vs Vampire Counts, but as with most GW art it should be based off of models. The Vampire faction looked like a zombie riding on a giant bat (not the fellbat) and winged zombies/vampire. I wonder if those are new models yet to be released, either as part of this warband or as an expansion to the Flesh Eater courts. The winged zombies could be more “mad scientist” works.
It's just Flesh Eater Courts; ghoul king on a terrorgheist and crypt flayers. Only "new" thing are the six limbed flying who still have arms, but we know from Underworlds that there are vampires like that.
I also don’t know if artwork made for the role play systems counts in the only make art for models thing anyway.
Not that I think we’d see much new on them, but they churn out art in those, and unless just meaning the covers, there’s plenty of individual art pieces in the books that we aren’t seeing miniatures for.
Very meh I was expecting more but it's just a Delaque wannabe with some zombies with some electronics stuck in them, it could have gone further add a big guy and maybe some non-humans or lots of different bodies stitched together. I'll still buy it but they showed the best mini in the Miniature Monday reveal. Harrowdeep hasn't lived up to Direchasm yet.
Yup, a big missed opportunity. I had my hopes high given how good the BloodBowl Flesh Golem looks like. The more I look at these the more I feel that they would look better with tombstones on their backs and tree roots sprouting from them. I didn't see that coming.
I dont think theyre bad. Im not seeing anything that makes me want to buy them, and that armored zombie is especially a turn off since it lacks the aesthetic the rest of the shambling horde has. That model kinda kills any interest i might have forced myself to have.
I know this is an underwolrds warband, made for that game, but usually the warbands are so nifty that players of other games jealously look upon them, wishing to use them in their games. This is the first time ive been actively nonplussed by their sculpts.
But im ok if i never see these transplanted in warcry. This one seems a bit lazy, like the sculptor phoned it in.
The armored zombie is weird. He's got the armor of the skeletons, which is a cool callback. Maybe he was meant to be a villain in cursed city and got repurposed.
I shall thus also copy myself from Adepticon and say; I feel like the Exiled Dead is another warband like the Pirate Ogre one that missed the mark by only having the one mini that's actually on brand for the team.
Stitched together Frankenstein-style flesh constructs sounds really cool, but there's only one of them, and the rest are just regular zombies, but with tesla coils, except for one of them who doesn't even have that, and then theres a budget bin version of the Cursed City skeletons thrown in too.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Stitched together Frankenstein-style flesh constructs sounds really cool, but there's only one of them, and the rest are just regular zombies, but with tesla coils, except for one of them who doesn't even have that, and then theres a budget bin version of the Cursed City skeletons thrown in too.
Isn't the crouching guy without electro-bits meant to be... checks notes... Marcov, the mortal assistant to Deintalos?
And as only four of the zombies are referred to as "arcwalkers", I think the City Guard zombie is actually meant to be Marcov's "personal zombie" Regulus, which would explain why he doesn't share the aesthetic of the other four.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Stitched together Frankenstein-style flesh constructs sounds really cool, but there's only one of them, and the rest are just regular zombies, but with tesla coils, except for one of them who doesn't even have that, and then theres a budget bin version of the Cursed City skeletons thrown in too.
Isn't the crouching guy without electro-bits meant to be... checks notes... Marcov, the mortal assistant to Deintalos?
And as only four of the zombies are referred to as "arcwalkers", I think the City Guard zombie is actually meant to be Marcov's "personal zombie" Regulus, which would explain why he doesn't share the aesthetic of the other four.
Yeah, yeah i get it, however, GW also described him as, to quote;
Deintalos the Exiled, a necromancer whose grisly experiments went too far for even those in Shyish. Can you imagine experimenting so much with necromancy that even Nagash asks you to knock it off?
Which kind of was hyping his warband up as something more than just a bunch of regular zombies and one chronic masturbator. I mean he grafted a big arm to a dude once, and that's pretty where his grisly experiments end.
First warband I've been disappointed with in ages, had high hopes when they were first teased but that guy turns out to be the only decent mini in the bunch.
Hopefully the next one is better, that's going to be another starter set isn't it?
They're not bad, per se, but they are a terribly wasted opportunity (and as we well know: GW never wastes an opportunity to waste an opportunity! ).
When they previewed Mr. Big Arm, I think a lot of us got it into our heads that the other zombies would be weird amalgamations of various creatures stitched together - a real freak show - but as Wha-Mu said, most of them are just zombies with Tesla coils (or Zombies that fell into an AdMech player's bits box, as I put it). I mean one of them's just a guy in armour. Wow...
Quoting myself from the other thread (which I thought was this thread.)
Yeah big miss there for the exiled dead.
The potential was there for a fantastic Frankenstein-esque warband. But the sculpts are all just not quite there. Aside from a funky gem and a mini-sort of tesla coil, there's nothing that screams mad scientist about the mad scientist. Not to mention there's only one stitched together minion. Like.... where's the flavour?
Still, nice enough models over all. The leader will make for a nice necromancer with a few alterations. And more zombie fodder is always good.
As others have said, wasted opportunity with this warband.
Maybe the issue is that the dead are brought back from electricity and not through typical necromancy? That seems like something Nagash would take a lot of offense at.
Still, huge missed opportunity not to have crazy stitched together monstrosities. Imagine if it was just a weak necromancer, a giant flesh golem, and some weak zombies that you could sacrifice to heal your big guy during the game
I dunno, paint the Necromancer cloak white like a lab coat with blood spatter, and then really push the glowing blue electric OSL on the zombies and you'll get something quite different. Except the guy in armour who looks totally out of place.
The necromancer is really nice. It is nice to finally have another 7 fighter warband, just wish it didn't always have to be death.
I was hoping for some more diversity in the band, but whatever. Had a hard time figuring out who the apprentice was, doesn't really stick out like that for me.
I look forward to seeing the cards, and the mechanics.
Theres not much happening on the Stormcast front in AOS, and the starter set already has Stormcasts...
Skaven? Theres a chaos battletome incoming, and Harrowdeep has a high-seas adventure feel to it which we know that rats get on board ships...maybe they've landed somewhere?
Theres also an order battletome to look forward to, so maybe its Cities of Sigmar or Sylvaneth?
There was a rumour that correctly called the teams that we’ve got this season so far. I think it mentioned Malerion elves vs Cities of Sigmar in the starter, and Skaven Eshin to come too.
Should be noted, the random thematic art for underworlds rarely relates to the warbands themselves. This is just splash art for harrowdeep, not a teaser for the warbands. Like when they kept showing insect skulls during beastgrave and direchasm.
Pretty excited to get some more info tomorrow and hopefully a reveal by the end of the week. I've found this season extremely lacking, both with the warbands thus far and the mechanics in the new starter (Gloom essentially screws up several of the Direchasm's warbands key mechanic - it was like it was designed without knowledge of the game state).
However, the rumor monger than correctly predicted the Pirate Ogres and Zombies way before either was revealed has said the new Starter is going to have Malerions elves and the other two warbands are going to be Cities of Sigmar and a faction that has two Warbands (my guess is Khorne as we have no Chaos bands this season thus far).
Which means that we are likely to get Malerion's elves vs. Cities (or Khorne) and I'm very pumped on both those things, as well as getting gloom out of circulation hopefully.
Here's hoping we get a reveal this week, the new starter is supposed to be Q2 and we are already in that period so it shouldn't be too far off.
I'm going with Octopus...which GW will jump the shark with by giving it extra arms, so it will be a Decapus. To me the top circular part looks like the vents they use for propulsion and it looks like one of the arms/tentacles is wrapping around itself. The "Scales" just look like an attempt at the lumpy skin.
What Faction it could be for...no idea, maybe a water-rat (wet-skaven) army.
It'll be the very first Underworlds battle between a Giant Octopus and Mega Shark. Delegates from all corners of the realms will be watching from the side lines, holding baloons, eating snacks and booing and cheering.
Then a Giant Crab, with that little Crab riding shotgun on his back, will challenge the winner to an epic clash of the titans.
The Giant Crab, reigning supreme, then challenges Sigmar to unarmed combat...
...stay tuned for real **** is about to go down in the Underworlds.
jaredb wrote: I don't care what the warbands are, I'm excited!
Me too!
jaredb wrote: Should be noted, the random thematic art for underworlds rarely relates to the warbands themselves. This is just splash art for harrowdeep, not a teaser for the warbands. Like when they kept showing insect skulls during beastgrave and direchasm.
That piece of art is not for Harrowdeep, but for whatever this next season is called. Just as Nightvault was under Shadespire, we shall be entrring FellAbyss!
That piece of art is not for Harrowdeep, but for whatever this next season is called. Just as Nightvault was under Shadespire, we shall be entrring FellAbyss!
jaredb wrote: I don't think it's a malerion aelf. Looks like one of the khainaite shadowstalkers from warcry.
Either way, It looks like we might get a warband which makes use of the assassin keyword, which would be cool.
Part of me wonders if Malarions elves are going to end up like Exodites in 40K. Always in the lore; always spoken about but only 1 or two token models over 30 years are released.
jaredb wrote: I don't think it's a malerion aelf. Looks like one of the khainaite shadowstalkers from warcry.
Either way, It looks like we might get a warband which makes use of the assassin keyword, which would be cool.
Part of me wonders if Malarions elves are going to end up like Exodites in 40K. Always in the lore; always spoken about but only 1 or two token models over 30 years are released.
I doubt it. I expect them to be like Lumineth as a big new faction rather than more limited new faction launches that are added to AoS more frequently. The former simply don't happen so often, so it's going to be a while for GW to get around to it. Has the Realm of Shadows had any focus yet in the same way as we have Ghur now? Or Aqshy and Ghryan in the beginning? Seems reasonable to expect that once Ulgu is in the spotlight, Malerion is going to make his debut as well.
Wiz Warrior wrote: What a waste of an article. GW are on high troll mode with that "reveal" they promised today.
Serves me right for checking. Shame on me, not GW.
They didn’t promise a reveal today. They said ‘join us tomorrow as we delve deeper into the darkness.’ It was pretty obviously going to be just the second part of a long drawn out tease.
Not sure how representative of anything the creature in the middle of the picture is, but given the text in the article...
“If the ancient legends are true, then deep beneath the ocean bed can be found the resting place of Harrowdeep’s creators – shadow daemons from the liar’s moon of the Orb Duplicita, sworn enemies of the physical world.”
... might this be one of the shadow daemons that was basically the only info we had on elves and/or inhabitants of Ulgu back in the beginning of AoS?
They've been in the lore for ages, or at least Shadow beasts/creatures have. I'm surprised they've not appeared in the Daughter's of Khaine so far as they were the first creatures Morathi interacted with when she escaped Slaanesh's belly and found herself wandering the Shadow Realm.
Wiz Warrior wrote: What a waste of an article. GW are on high troll mode with that "reveal" they promised today.
Serves me right for checking. Shame on me, not GW.
They didn’t promise a reveal today. They said ‘join us tomorrow as we delve deeper into the darkness.’ It was pretty obviously going to be just the second part of a long drawn out tease.
Gosh, it really IS obvious. Youre so right. Im so wrong.
Im not sure how i could be so stupid. Thanks. You really saved the day.
Wiz Warrior wrote: What a waste of an article. GW are on high troll mode with that "reveal" they promised today.
Serves me right for checking. Shame on me, not GW.
They didn’t promise a reveal today. They said ‘join us tomorrow as we delve deeper into the darkness.’ It was pretty obviously going to be just the second part of a long drawn out tease.
Gosh, it really IS obvious. Youre so right. Im so wrong.
Im not sure how i could be so stupid. Thanks. You really saved the day.
Welcome!
I’m not defending the preview, btw. It’s very annoying.
The mercurial passageways of this new maze convulse and shift as if moved by an unseen hand. Shadowy entities stalk these halls, gnawing on the fear of those that walk beside you.
What is their intent, and what part do you play in their plans?
How do you fit into these writhing schemes? More will be revealed tomorrow.
“Only those who do not succumb to despair can hope to endure. Such intrepid souls must keep the fires of their resolve blazing, banishing all notion of surrendering to the malicious sentience of Nethermaze.”
Are the walls of these corridors hewn, or are they the fused remains of those who failed to reach the heart of this crucible of shadows?
Whispers swell in your ears. Push further to reach the Waking Gate and escape this living nightmare.
One last step. The Warhammer Community site will reveal all tomorrow.
Meh.
This would have been far, far, far more interesting as a two day tease or something with an animation involved.
Am the only one wondering what the point of this is?
I’m not knocking the game. But this is the first time we’ve had pomp and circumstance for Underworlds part way through a season. It feels….a bit unjustified if it’s just gonna be a warband reveal, even if they’re proper esoteric.
I think it’s going to be the new starter set reveal, as we know that’s what’s coming next. Does feel a bit dramatic to have a week long tease about it.
I’m not knocking the game. But this is the first time we’ve had pomp and circumstance for Underworlds part way through a season. It feels….a bit unjustified if it’s just gonna be a warband reveal, even if they’re proper esoteric.
I've been assuming its a leadup to another Red Harvest type box.
Maybe its Eshin "shadow daemon" Skaven (hey, they are supposedly children of chaos, why not make them daemons?) v Umbraneth aelves? Kinda been dropping hints in both directions, and with it being Good Friday/Easter Weekend they can probably hype it as a "resurrection" or "rebirth" type thing, fitting with the holiday.
Sabotage! wrote: I think it’s going to be the new starter set reveal, as we know that’s what’s coming next. Does feel a bit dramatic to have a week long tease about it.
I’m quite likely wrong, but I thought there were more seasonal warbands to come?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Eshin full inspire on killing the enemy leader is cool.
Will be interesting to see what these keywords Map and Domain do.
Nice to have two warbands that looks wise are A’s/B’s. For me anyway.
Absolutely love the rats, gotta be one of the best warbands they've made, which is unfortunate for the elves because they're still very nice but just can't measure up
What has always stopped or stalled me on the boxes is loving one warband and the other just being ok.
But for this. Eshin super high tier look.
Then elves also like the look enough to be happy with having them.
Nice to finally see the actual models. The rats are nice, but I'm not really into Skaven. The elves do nothing for me. I'm kind of glad, actually. No temptation to buy the expensive starter box because I like some of the models.
Not quite so much for Miss Cobra Commander faceplate.
Miss Cobra Commander...clearly the Baroness is borrowing the faceplate...
I like both of these teams, but the Skaven are the clear winners. The sheer flavor of the Eshin poses are a win. The Aelves are good, but the Skaven have a much better pressence.
Abs: the most invulnerable part of the body.
Also apparently hand crossbows are just the best at toning the abs. You're just not going to get a six-pack only by knifing people.
Overall meh, especially the elves. The skaven assassins seem pretty plain/interchangeable with past assassins, and the other two look barely a step above the old monkey skaven.
And these are more Morathi-elves, not shadow elves. Ok, then.
A few rumor engine pics people had tentatively labelled 'cursed city' are solved by the skaven.
Really digging this starter set, love the Skaven and the Elves are pretty cool also - though I’m a bit bummed we got more Morathi elves and not Malerion’s elves- I’m really interested to see what they looked like. Either way humongous improvement over the last starter.
Would have preferred the Witch Hunter band against the Skaven, but we will see them soon enough by the sounds of it.
What I’m really not stoked about is adding yet more keywords and rules bloat to a game that really doesn’t need it. I guess since we really only play Rivals + we don’t need to worry about it too much, but I imagine if you were a competitive player it would be a bit frustrating. Especially as there is so much design space in the game that doesn’t need more keywords/special rules to do cool things with.
Did we really need an underworld group that's from warcry (ok, silver tower, but warcry is the big one.)
Warcry is full of unique looking models. And if you mix and match the units from this set with the other one, I couldn't tell you which was from what set (even the bases don't help)
I’ve no interest in the actual game, but Underworld continues to produce some of the best looking minis. I must, at some point, buy a few just to paint.
I like the elves, but they feel like something GW has done already. I'm used to seeing Underworlds provide a fresh spin and this feels like just an extension of the Warcry set. If anything almost just alternative models for it instead of a dedicated unique warband for Underworld.
I like them but they don't feel as fresh as what I'm used to seeing from Underworld.
Skaven are interesting! If just because they've had so few new releases (though did well during End Times for totally new stuff); but also to see the art direction. For a time Skaven were getting pretty bald. A symptom I think of people painting the arms almost fully in skin tones with fur patches because plastics don't have full fur texturing like the old metal models did. So seeing these ones with almost the opposite, almost fully furred arms is interesting. One day GW will land on the ideal -furry arms and skin claws.
Not normally much of a Skaven person, but those are really nice!
The Elves are also pretty good, particularly crossbow guy. Definately an improvement over that massively disappointing (IMO) zombie crew.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I want about 6 copies of the Skaven and none of the rest. I'm gunna be out of luck for a while methinks...
Given that the seasons are much shorter now, that won't be too long. I expect we'll see the Harrowdeep teams( stormcasts & Kruleboyz ) sold individually very shortly.
Skaven are great, as I had hoped.. elves are pleasant too..
Although honestly, the guy with the crossbow could double as a human, and I do NOT understand the moons on chains attached to the Elven Queenie's breastplate..
Skaven are nice, but the only ones I like are Plague monks so I don't care.
Elves are indeed 'just' Shadowstalkers, but a good addition to the existing ones. Not quite an AoS army with now 13 models, but good enough for Warcry.
And for those who still play WHFB it's a box full of assassins.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Oh, neat. They updated the 20+ year old Gutter Runner sculpts into plastic, finally. Only downside is it's groups of 5 in a £60+ box.
The Shadowstalkers do nothing - I mean, alternative sculpts are nice for a unit with monopose sculpts, but not in blocks of 4 like that.
But hey, updated plastic Gutter Runners though. Neat.
I mean, they'll be released separately (eventually). And even later, they'll debut in grey plastic for a slightly cheaper price, sans cards
NinthMusketeer wrote: I want about 6 copies of the Skaven and none of the rest. I'm gunna be out of luck for a while methinks...
Given that the seasons are much shorter now, that won't be too long. I expect we'll see the Harrowdeep teams( stormcasts & Kruleboyz ) sold individually very shortly.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the boxes stay around longer now as everything’s shorter.
(I.e. same amount of time as before till single sales.) but time will tell.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: I like the elves, but they feel like something GW has done already. I'm used to seeing Underworlds provide a fresh spin and this feels like just an extension of the Warcry set. If anything almost just alternative models for it instead of a dedicated unique warband for Underworld.
I like them but they don't feel as fresh as what I'm used to seeing from Underworld.
Skaven are interesting! If just because they've had so few new releases (though did well during End Times for totally new stuff); but also to see the art direction. For a time Skaven were getting pretty bald. A symptom I think of people painting the arms almost fully in skin tones with fur patches because plastics don't have full fur texturing like the old metal models did. So seeing these ones with almost the opposite, almost fully furred arms is interesting. One day GW will land on the ideal -furry arms and skin claws.
Can’t be bothered to count them up but surely it’s about 50/50 for warbands coming out and just being poses of stuff already about..?
