If you guys/gals haven't noticed there is an undefeated SM list running 2x dakka repulsors and 3x autocannon predators at LVO. Supported by Gman in a mixed chapter detachment for that sweet black templars 4+ deny I think that's pretty awesome.
All that str 5 shooting from the repulsors and an armor skew that has somehow avoided getting instagibbed by all the knights I really wish he was on stream. Anyone know this mad genius who can get some insight onto how this list plays? My guess is screen with the inceptors, scouts and repulsors, smash anything that gets too close with GMAN and pray your opponent only brought enough heavy fire-power to deal with one knight not 5 armored targets?
Another gent did really well with another UM list leveraging biker vets with storm shields, victrix guard and GMAN in a death ball (just a guess) backed up by some IG in the vigilus artillery detachment.
Not a great showing for any marines not running a knight or GMAN but I think we already knew that. Very few primaris models anywhere near the top tables (hellblasters are garbage I promise). But honestly surprised to see a marine armor skew list do so well with all the knights running around.
Aaron Towler here. Im the one with the crazy list from LVO. Feel free to ask any questions you want about list construction, games, tactics ect. Here to help!
@ Slayer -Fan I load my preds out with Pred autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons and hunter killer missiles (if I have points). The reason for this is simple: The Kill Shot Strategem (probably one of our best). Gives all 3 preds within +1 Damage and +1 to wound against vehicles and Monsters. Effectively turning your preds into the best armored killers in the game point for point. Predator autocannons become damage 4 and Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters into damage 2. If you run this style you desperately need it to deal with the knight lists. Statistically Kill shot combined with the other shooting in the list you muscle through a Castellans 3++ invul in 1 turn.
The second reason for taking this load-out is you can have these tanks serve the duel role of more anti horde if no vehicles are present. It effectively turns your tanks into anti infantry killers as on average you will do about 25-30 wounds between the 3. You also have to keep them as cheap as chips so you can fill out the rest of the army with enough meat to get you through the game.
Great to hear about the dakka preds doing work. A friend of mine used them right from the start of 8th with kill shot and the warlord trait that adds -1 to AP on a 6 to wound.
I've been planning an all-infantry crimson fist army. Not sure if I should replace my hellblasters with predators. The issue would be that they'd be the only vehicles in my army, so would probably attract a lot of hate. But to be honest my hellblasters would attract it instead if I didn't have the preds. What do people think?
Aaron Towler here. Im the one with the crazy list from LVO. Feel free to ask any questions you want about list construction, games, tactics ect. Here to help!
@ Slayer -Fan I load my preds out with Pred autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons and hunter killer missiles (if I have points). The reason for this is simple: The Kill Shot Strategem (probably one of our best). Gives all 3 preds within +1 Damage and +1 to wound against vehicles and Monsters. Effectively turning your preds into the best armored killers in the game point for point. Predator autocannons become damage 4 and Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters into damage 2. If you run this style you desperately need it to deal with the knight lists. Statistically Kill shot combined with the other shooting in the list you muscle through a Castellans 3++ invul in 1 turn.
The second reason for taking this load-out is you can have these tanks serve the duel role of more anti horde if no vehicles are present. It effectively turns your tanks into anti infantry killers as on average you will do about 25-30 wounds between the 3. You also have to keep them as cheap as chips so you can fill out the rest of the army with enough meat to get you through the game.
Relying on Killshot effectively means you NEED to go first though.
Aaron Towler here. Im the one with the crazy list from LVO. Feel free to ask any questions you want about list construction, games, tactics ect. Here to help!
@ Slayer -Fan I load my preds out with Pred autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons and hunter killer missiles (if I have points). The reason for this is simple: The Kill Shot Strategem (probably one of our best). Gives all 3 preds within +1 Damage and +1 to wound against vehicles and Monsters. Effectively turning your preds into the best armored killers in the game point for point. Predator autocannons become damage 4 and Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters into damage 2. If you run this style you desperately need it to deal with the knight lists. Statistically Kill shot combined with the other shooting in the list you muscle through a Castellans 3++ invul in 1 turn.
The second reason for taking this load-out is you can have these tanks serve the duel role of more anti horde if no vehicles are present. It effectively turns your tanks into anti infantry killers as on average you will do about 25-30 wounds between the 3. You also have to keep them as cheap as chips so you can fill out the rest of the army with enough meat to get you through the game.
Hey there, grats on making it as far as you did. When I saw you had lost the tiebreaker round I was truly dissapointed as I was really hoping to see your army on stream.
On to the list construction question though, what made you run the specific mix of Intercessors and Scouts that you chose?
Aaron Towler here. Im the one with the crazy list from LVO. Feel free to ask any questions you want about list construction, games, tactics ect. Here to help!
@ Slayer -Fan I load my preds out with Pred autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons and hunter killer missiles (if I have points). The reason for this is simple: The Kill Shot Strategem (probably one of our best). Gives all 3 preds within +1 Damage and +1 to wound against vehicles and Monsters. Effectively turning your preds into the best armored killers in the game point for point. Predator autocannons become damage 4 and Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters into damage 2. If you run this style you desperately need it to deal with the knight lists. Statistically Kill shot combined with the other shooting in the list you muscle through a Castellans 3++ invul in 1 turn.
The second reason for taking this load-out is you can have these tanks serve the duel role of more anti horde if no vehicles are present. It effectively turns your tanks into anti infantry killers as on average you will do about 25-30 wounds between the 3. You also have to keep them as cheap as chips so you can fill out the rest of the army with enough meat to get you through the game.
Congratulations on your remarkable performance on LVO 2019.
More so because you managed to finish in top placings with mono-SM list, even with plethora of IG & Castellan lists and Mixed Aeldari lists in the tournament scene.
Lately I have been feeling that mono-SM lists were struggling against wide variety of lists and showing subpar performance, despite points reduction across the codex.
Seeing your placings and list, however, motivated me to review my lists and tactics.
Although Space Marines are far from dominating or taking up considerable part of top placings, I believe your performance can greatly inspire mediocre players like me.
Many questions spring to my mind, but I would like to ask two of them if you do not mind.
First question is, what lists did you face during the event, and which lists proved to be your toughest match?
As a player exclusively using mono-IH(Iron Hands) list, I find Aeldari lists with plenty of flying units to be problematic regardless of missions.
Alaitoc Wraithfighter detachments, skyweaver spam lists, triple disintegrator ravagers galore, to name but a few.
If you have faced aeldari lists including such elements supported by psychic powers and stratagems(especially Lightning Fast Reaction), how did you respond?
Last question is about terrain.
What influence did the size, number, and positions of terrain pieces have on your games?
I seldom see Ultramarine players around me performing well due to how densely terrains are placed in local gaming club.
There are at least 2 ruin/building pieces per 2'x2' sections, and 2~3 large terrain pieces blocking Line of Sight at the centre of the board.
This does limit the performance of Ultramarine lists with Guiliman as an anchor, as clustering around 6" aura yields limited line of sight.
How was your experience at the LVO tables?
Relying on Killshot effectively means you NEED to go first though.
Going first is definitely a plus! Here is the rub though. The Preds are a red herring in the list. Your opponent is forced to shoot at them becuase of kill shot which leaves your true threats (the respulsors) free to destroy the rest of his army. Dont get me wrong against knights yeah losing kill shot hurts a bit but you have many tools in your belt to help you with losing a the strat. The smash capt. and Gman can do it in close combat if necessary and your snipers and HB squads will continue to take mortal wounds off it as the game continues. Against knights you have to deploy very aggressively just in case you lose the role and lost a pred. Proper positioning hleps as well. If you can hid your stuff do it! Dont get me wrong its a tough battle but defiantly still winnable.
First question is, what lists did you face during the event, and which lists proved to be your toughest match?
As a player exclusively using mono-IH(Iron Hands) list, I find Aeldari lists with plenty of flying units to be problematic regardless of missions.
Alaitoc Wraithfighter detachments, skyweaver spam lists, triple disintegrator ravagers galore, to name but a few.
If you have faced aeldari lists including such elements supported by psychic powers and stratagems(especially Lightning Fast Reaction), how did you respond?
Thank you buddy for the kind words. I wanted to set a challenge for myself to do straight marines and see how difficult it would be.
Yes Aeldari is by far our toughest matchup. I have play tested against it so many times with this llst and I know exactly what the result of the game is: We typically lose. I tried to put some tricks in the list to help us out though. The smash captain is there to help with some of these threats although I most likely will drop the BA detachment from the list in favor of taking a Whirlwind Scorpius. We need units to be productive every turn and the captain mostly just dies the turn after he comes in. Scouts are BT so we can stop the reapers double shoot on a 4+.
In the matchup against eldar I played very defensively hugging cover where I could and hiding as to avoid losing full vehicles a turn and then when i took damage I fell back with the vehicle and let the tech marine repair. The guy I played ran a typically eldar detachment but also ran a homouclus coven with 2 units of 8 grotesc. I went first baited him with a long(ish) charge. He didnt make it and I was able to at least take out one unit before he went into the building with the other unit. It was an extremely tight game.
Last question is about terrain.
What influence did the size, number, and positions of terrain pieces have on your games?
I seldom see Ultramarine players around me performing well due to how densely terrains are placed in local gaming club.
There are at least 2 ruin/building pieces per 2'x2' sections, and 2~3 large terrain pieces blocking Line of Sight at the centre of the board.
This does limit the performance of Ultramarine lists with Guiliman as an anchor, as clustering around 6" aura yields limited line of sight.
How was your experience at the LVO tables?
Of course! Ok the hardest learning curve with this style is positioning and knowing when to move your models. When I first started playing this list it took me awhile to learn when to stay put and when moving was more advantageous. I played on what I would call most of tables I played on between medium and heavy terrain at LVO. I think I only played on 1 table that had no LOS in a corner and I forced the necron player into that quarter when we deployed. What I typically do is deploy behind the center LOS blocking terrain (in cover and obscured just in case I lose the role to go first I dont have waste CP on the cover strat). I typically pick a side with the biggest threat. Shift vehicles to that side and start going to town. Now that doesnt mean I go all out on that one side. I poke my facing out just enough so I can shoot what I want but I dont expose myself needlessly. it forces your opponent to be less effective with his army and now he as to shift over to shoot you. You will only be 16% less effective on the move with the preds because gman is awesome and the repulsors will still be 100% effective becuase they have machine spirit.
Yeah I’ve had good results running repulsors, though not with predators. Maybe I should change that, as taking heat off repulsors would let them do great work.
I’m keen to try out fielding a bunch of veteran intercessors. I’ve been planning a double battalion but that’s not totally needed, as there aren’t really that many great stratagems to use. The trouble is that the UKGT is only 1750 points, so it’s a lot harder to fit everything in.
Here’s an attempt at a list. It’s 39 points over, which should be relatively easy to fix. My repulsors are built with lots of lasers on but that could be changed, or I could just drop a couple of intercessors.
The bigger problem is a lack of CPs. The list I’ve currently been working towards has two battalions, the second of which is led by Kantor and a librarian, with 15 hellblasters, 2x5 intercessors, 5 scouts, an ancient and no vehicles. That said, I’m allowed to decide whether to dump CPs into making my intercessors veterans. I could do that vs horde opponents but not against armour. So it might be just about ok.
Primaris Captain 92
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist
Primaris Lieutenant 74
Power Sword
10 Intercessors 179
Power Fist
2 Auxiliary Grenade launchers
10 Intercessors 179
Power Fist
2 Auxiliary Grenade launchers
10 Intercessors 179
Power Fist
2 Auxiliary Grenade launchers
Predator 150
Autocannon
2 heavy bolters
Predator 150
Autocannon
2 heavy bolters
Predator 150
Autocannon
2 heavy bolters
Repulsor 313
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Ironhail heavy stubber
Two Krakstorm grenade launchers
2 Storm Bolters
Two fragstorm grenade launchers
Icarus missile pod
Repulsor 313
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Ironhail heavy stubber
Two Krakstorm grenade launchers
2 Storm Bolters
Two fragstorm grenade launchers
Icarus missile pod
What I’ll probably do is paint intercessors for now, then see what the contents of shadowstrike looks like. It’ll be out in time to use I think, and might change things a bit.
Aaron Towler here. Im the one with the crazy list from LVO. Feel free to ask any questions you want about list construction, games, tactics ect. Here to help!
@ Slayer -Fan I load my preds out with Pred autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons and hunter killer missiles (if I have points). The reason for this is simple: The Kill Shot Strategem (probably one of our best). Gives all 3 preds within +1 Damage and +1 to wound against vehicles and Monsters. Effectively turning your preds into the best armored killers in the game point for point. Predator autocannons become damage 4 and Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters into damage 2. If you run this style you desperately need it to deal with the knight lists. Statistically Kill shot combined with the other shooting in the list you muscle through a Castellans 3++ invul in 1 turn.
The second reason for taking this load-out is you can have these tanks serve the duel role of more anti horde if no vehicles are present. It effectively turns your tanks into anti infantry killers as on average you will do about 25-30 wounds between the 3. You also have to keep them as cheap as chips so you can fill out the rest of the army with enough meat to get you through the game.
Hey there, grats on making it as far as you did. When I saw you had lost the tiebreaker round I was truly dissapointed as I was really hoping to see your army on stream.
On to the list construction question though, what made you run the specific mix of Intercessors and Scouts that you chose?
I know right! The last game highlighted to me some additional weaknesses in the list that I will be doing my best to midigate. Keep in mind everything in the army as a duel purpose nothing is just good at doing 1 thing.
9 Intercessors: Make them veterans, up to 36 shots when in rapid fire range. 29 attacks in CC. great for clearing out light troops who try and touch your vehicles. Liberator strat makes them even better as you should be getting an additional 4-8 attacks on average. Then you can always fight twice if you need There are honestly so many applications for these guys they are almost a mandatory in any lists I take as you can put them in the repulsors to save on your drop count too! You need to make the squad as large as possible (8 or bigger) to get the most bang for your buck if you have to spend CP to get the bonus')
8 Black Templar scouts: Sweet 4+ deny any psychic power. Absolutely game breaking if you get it to stop like warptime or another of your opponents important powers. How LVO worked with the Big LOS in the middle is you just deploy them in the building and let them score and stop powers all game. I went with a bigger squad size just in case they were targeted with non LOS powers they could take a few hits before getting killed.
5 Ultramarine scouts with snpers and HB. My mortal wound boys. I needed a scout unit to stay back on my back objectives and giving the squad long range weapons that can also target characters seemed to be the wise choice. This unit preformed ok over the course of the weekend. Not as good as Id hoped but never that bad. With as much LOS blocking terrain as there was the snipers were not as effective.
I've got a few questions.
How efficient is null zone? It seems like a great power but the range is limited, I've got a librarian in terminator armour, is he a good choice for null zone?
What would you reccomend for the relic Deredeo atomantic shielding buff? I'm planning to use venerable dreads with heavy plasma and twin auto cannon at the moment. Does the shielding just have to touch any model in a unit for the whole unit to receive the 5++?
I've got a few questions.
How efficient is null zone? It seems like a great power but the range is limited, I've got a librarian in terminator armour, is he a good choice for null zone?
What would you reccomend for the relic Deredeo atomantic shielding buff? I'm planning to use venerable dreads with heavy plasma and twin auto cannon at the moment. Does the shielding just have to touch any model in a unit for the whole unit to receive the 5++?
Null zone is dicey. casting on an 8 is never a guarantee. Tiggy gives you your best odds to successfully cast. Typically you want to put it on a biker libby or a jump libby so you can move 12-20 " and start effecting units that are far away. Again though its a risk because if you dont get it off your libby is probably dead. The entire model/unit has to be entirely within the 6in Deredeo bubble to get the benefit of the save. Its ok but it does have its drawbacks as you have to basically on top of the Deredeo to get the invul.
I've got a few questions.
How efficient is null zone? It seems like a great power but the range is limited, I've got a librarian in terminator armour, is he a good choice for null zone?
What would you reccomend for the relic Deredeo atomantic shielding buff? I'm planning to use venerable dreads with heavy plasma and twin auto cannon at the moment. Does the shielding just have to touch any model in a unit for the whole unit to receive the 5++?
Null zone is dicey. casting on an 8 is never a guarantee. Tiggy gives you your best odds to successfully cast. Typically you want to put it on a biker libby or a jump libby so you can move 12-20 " and start effecting units that are far away. Again though its a risk because if you dont get it off your libby is probably dead. The entire model/unit has to be entirely within the 6in Deredeo bubble to get the benefit of the save. Its ok but it does have its drawbacks as you have to basically on top of the Deredeo to get the invul.
Even if you get it off your Libby would still be dead when he is that close to the enemy and being way too squishy, unless you have your other strong units like Gman or Vanguard or Smash Captain nearby. Or at least have units that bubble shield the Libby.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, can you use the chapter specific stratagem on mixed detachment? IIRC you will lose everything except the buff from respective Chapter characters if you mix up Ultramarines and Black Templar.
By the way, can you use the chapter specific stratagem on mixed detachment? IIRC you will lose everything except the buff from respective Chapter characters if you mix up Ultramarines and Black Templar.
Yes you can still use your chapter specific stratagem as your units are whatever chapter they belong to. You lose your chapter tactic as a result of a mixed detachment. I dont use the ultramarine chapter tactic as most of my army is vehicles and cant shoot anyway when they fall back so having a mixed detachment doesn't effect me as much.
If your going nullzone, give him a jetpack. Then give him the armor indomitus. Start him on the board with character cover. If you use the reroll you have a 70 percent chance of getting null zone off. That's not a guarantee, but a 70% to allow your heavy fire to absolutely shred units they would otherwise have trouble with can be invaluable.
Terminator Armor is too slow to make use of null zone, so is deepstriking in most cases as well. It requires either a JP or Bike to use effectively
Aaron Towler here. Im the one with the crazy list from LVO. Feel free to ask any questions you want about list construction, games, tactics ect. Here to help!
@ Slayer -Fan I load my preds out with Pred autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons and hunter killer missiles (if I have points). The reason for this is simple: The Kill Shot Strategem (probably one of our best). Gives all 3 preds within +1 Damage and +1 to wound against vehicles and Monsters. Effectively turning your preds into the best armored killers in the game point for point. Predator autocannons become damage 4 and Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters into damage 2. If you run this style you desperately need it to deal with the knight lists. Statistically Kill shot combined with the other shooting in the list you muscle through a Castellans 3++ invul in 1 turn.
The second reason for taking this load-out is you can have these tanks serve the duel role of more anti horde if no vehicles are present. It effectively turns your tanks into anti infantry killers as on average you will do about 25-30 wounds between the 3. You also have to keep them as cheap as chips so you can fill out the rest of the army with enough meat to get you through the game.
Great list and hats of for doing so well yours list was the only list I saw in the top 8 that was Intresting you have inspired me to try a dark Angels take on the list and again hats of for doing so well with a cool list
Thanks for the advice, jump pack does seem the way forward generally. I assume a vanguard veteran jump pack will fit relatively easily onto the standard librarian with the staff?
I did think about using the terminator librarian with a group of cataphracti I haven't built yet to jump in behind a group of enemies in midfield to trap them to alleviate some of the limited movement of the cataphracti and perform a pincer type manoeuvre.
Relying on Killshot effectively means you NEED to go first though.
Going first is definitely a plus! Here is the rub though. The Preds are a red herring in the list. Your opponent is forced to shoot at them becuase of kill shot which leaves your true threats (the respulsors) free to destroy the rest of his army. Dont get me wrong against knights yeah losing kill shot hurts a bit but you have many tools in your belt to help you with losing a the strat. The smash capt. and Gman can do it in close combat if necessary and your snipers and HB squads will continue to take mortal wounds off it as the game continues. Against knights you have to deploy very aggressively just in case you lose the role and lost a pred. Proper positioning hleps as well. If you can hid your stuff do it! Dont get me wrong its a tough battle but defiantly still winnable.
First question is, what lists did you face during the event, and which lists proved to be your toughest match?
As a player exclusively using mono-IH(Iron Hands) list, I find Aeldari lists with plenty of flying units to be problematic regardless of missions.
Alaitoc Wraithfighter detachments, skyweaver spam lists, triple disintegrator ravagers galore, to name but a few.
If you have faced aeldari lists including such elements supported by psychic powers and stratagems(especially Lightning Fast Reaction), how did you respond?
Thank you buddy for the kind words. I wanted to set a challenge for myself to do straight marines and see how difficult it would be.
Yes Aeldari is by far our toughest matchup. I have play tested against it so many times with this llst and I know exactly what the result of the game is: We typically lose. I tried to put some tricks in the list to help us out though. The smash captain is there to help with some of these threats although I most likely will drop the BA detachment from the list in favor of taking a Whirlwind Scorpius. We need units to be productive every turn and the captain mostly just dies the turn after he comes in. Scouts are BT so we can stop the reapers double shoot on a 4+.
In the matchup against eldar I played very defensively hugging cover where I could and hiding as to avoid losing full vehicles a turn and then when i took damage I fell back with the vehicle and let the tech marine repair. The guy I played ran a typically eldar detachment but also ran a homouclus coven with 2 units of 8 grotesc. I went first baited him with a long(ish) charge. He didnt make it and I was able to at least take out one unit before he went into the building with the other unit. It was an extremely tight game.
Last question is about terrain.
What influence did the size, number, and positions of terrain pieces have on your games?
I seldom see Ultramarine players around me performing well due to how densely terrains are placed in local gaming club.
There are at least 2 ruin/building pieces per 2'x2' sections, and 2~3 large terrain pieces blocking Line of Sight at the centre of the board.
This does limit the performance of Ultramarine lists with Guiliman as an anchor, as clustering around 6" aura yields limited line of sight.
How was your experience at the LVO tables?
Of course! Ok the hardest learning curve with this style is positioning and knowing when to move your models. When I first started playing this list it took me awhile to learn when to stay put and when moving was more advantageous. I played on what I would call most of tables I played on between medium and heavy terrain at LVO. I think I only played on 1 table that had no LOS in a corner and I forced the necron player into that quarter when we deployed. What I typically do is deploy behind the center LOS blocking terrain (in cover and obscured just in case I lose the role to go first I dont have waste CP on the cover strat). I typically pick a side with the biggest threat. Shift vehicles to that side and start going to town. Now that doesnt mean I go all out on that one side. I poke my facing out just enough so I can shoot what I want but I dont expose myself needlessly. it forces your opponent to be less effective with his army and now he as to shift over to shoot you. You will only be 16% less effective on the move with the preds because gman is awesome and the repulsors will still be 100% effective becuase they have machine spirit.
The thing about that is you only have to eliminate ONE Predator, and they aren't exactly tough for the price. If your opponents were trying to kill ALL of them, that's on the opponent.
But they need to kill one Predator before they bite off something nastier - like a Repulsor.
A single Predator isn't the hardest thing to kill, but isn't the easiest, either. It's a fair number of wounds to chew through. So you've got a Predator-equivelant's worth of durability of whatever else you chose that's more killy per durability than a Predator, that now survives until round 2. That's kinda a big deal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Enron,
How concerned was your list with Doom?
What do you think about this being a case for the Deredeo 5++ shield? Normally I didn’t think it’s be worth the points cause the Deredeo is one of the best shooters, so they’d likely want it dead shield aura or no. But here, the killshot Predator is the bigger threat, the shield might actually work?
Bharring wrote: But they need to kill one Predator before they bite off something nastier - like a Repulsor.
A single Predator isn't the hardest thing to kill, but isn't the easiest, either. It's a fair number of wounds to chew through. So you've got a Predator-equivelant's worth of durability of whatever else you chose that's more killy per durability than a Predator, that now survives until round 2. That's kinda a big deal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Enron,
How concerned was your list with Doom?
"Nah, it's pretty easy."
Lascannons:
(2/3) hit (2/3) wound and (2/3) bypass saves (note that he comments about getting cover most of the time). Assuming the LC didn't need to move at all.
(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)(3.5) is ~1W/lascannon.
That's 11 Lascannons to put down 1 Pred in cover.
Crimson hunter.
BL: 2x(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)(3.5) or 2.6 wounds
PL: 2x(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)(3) or 2.22 wounds
CH does 4.8 wounds.
2.3 of the enemies 3 CH target the Pred.
Only 0.7 CH left to target the "real" threat.
And CH is known to be one of the better tank hunters.
More than 2 fewer Crimson Hunters, or 11 fewer Lascannons, firing at your scariest threats sounds pretty good to me. I wouldn't call either of those "easy".
Bharring wrote: "Nah, it's pretty easy."
Lascannons:
(2/3) hit (2/3) wound and (2/3) bypass saves (note that he comments about getting cover most of the time). Assuming the LC didn't need to move at all.
(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)(3.5) is ~1W/lascannon.
That's 11 Lascannons to put down 1 Pred in cover.
Crimson hunter.
BL: 2x(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)(3.5) or 2.6 wounds
PL: 2x(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)(3) or 2.22 wounds
CH does 4.8 wounds.
2.3 of the enemies 3 CH target the Pred.
Only 0.7 CH left to target the "real" threat.
And CH is known to be one of the better tank hunters.
More than 2 fewer Crimson Hunters, or 11 fewer Lascannons, firing at your scariest threats sounds pretty good to me. I wouldn't call either of those "easy".
And once again Slayer is proven to not know a single thing about how this game works
Bharring wrote: "Nah, it's pretty easy."
Lascannons:
(2/3) hit (2/3) wound and (2/3) bypass saves (note that he comments about getting cover most of the time). Assuming the LC didn't need to move at all.
(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)(3.5) is ~1W/lascannon.
That's 11 Lascannons to put down 1 Pred in cover.
Crimson hunter.
BL: 2x(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)(3.5) or 2.6 wounds
PL: 2x(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)(3) or 2.22 wounds
CH does 4.8 wounds.
2.3 of the enemies 3 CH target the Pred.
Only 0.7 CH left to target the "real" threat.
And CH is known to be one of the better tank hunters.
More than 2 fewer Crimson Hunters, or 11 fewer Lascannons, firing at your scariest threats sounds pretty good to me. I wouldn't call either of those "easy".
And once again Slayer is proven to not know a single thing about how this game works
Yeah let me know when you successfully put a Predator in cover. Ya know, like with any other vehicle.
"Yeah let me know when you successfully put a Predator in cover. Ya know, like with any other vehicle."
It seems that people in tournies don't seem to dismiss cover so much:
"What I typically do is deploy behind the center LOS blocking terrain (in cover and obscured just in case I lose the role to go first I dont have waste CP on the cover strat)" - Enron, who you're quoting.
If I can get cover for Falcons and Serpents, I can certainly get cover for Preds. It's not easy or automatic. But then, losing said cover doesn't suddenly make it super easy to kill a Pred.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "The point is Predators really aren't that durable for the cost. It isn't unreasonable to kill one, and then focus on the Repulsors. I don't buy it."
So, you're saying your first 11 Lascannons kill the Predator. Then your next 16 Lascannons kill the Repulsor. Easy-peasy!
Now, that's just the first 27 Lascannons in your list. What will the rest of your list shoot at? (That was sarcastic.)
I think the army's results speak for themselves, to some degree. Assuming the win/loss ratio is accurate and we give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of how he used his units... How can you possibly know better than the guy who played the list?
Great list and hats of for doing so well yours list was the only list I saw in the top 8 that was Intresting you have inspired me to try a dark Angels take on the list and again hats of for doing so well with a cool list
you are so welcome buddy! I hope you do well with it! Dark Angels can add a nasty spin on the list with the darkshroud speeder giving all your vehicles a nice -1 to hit modifier. Very cool!
How concerned was your list with Doom?
Ill be honest. Eldar psychic powers are rough on us...all of them. All of them are great at erasing our units. Our best bet is to be able to deny on a 4+ with the templar scouts (or templar equivelent unit) or use a raven guard libby with a jump pack to get within deny range on turn 1. Either way its rough going. I generally think powers that need to be stopped based on leathality to our army are:
1. Word of the Phoenix
2. Quickening
3. Jinx/Doom
Every situations different but thats what I have found the most problematic powers are.
Wonderful! Got anything else?
The point is Predators really aren't that durable for the cost. It isn't unreasonable to kill one, and then focus on the Repulsors. I don't buy it.
Totally not a big deal buddy. This is just one style of marine lists that I think can be successful. The awesome thing about this game is we can all have cool and unique ideas and still be successful. I think this list preforms reasonably well but it does have some weaknesses. The space marine leader for most of the year was Patrick McElvey (sorry I butchered that), Patrick runs a space marine gulliman infantry heavy deathball list that also was very successful. Patrick uses his guilliman aggressively and pushes the army forward as one 3+ armor wall. Patricks list also has some weaknesses. Both of us are using the different tools to achieve the same results!
Totally not a big deal buddy. This is just one style of marine lists that I think can be successful. The awesome thing about this game is we can all have cool and unique ideas and still be successful. I think this list preforms reasonably well but it does have some weaknesses. The space marine leader for most of the year was Patrick McElvey (sorry I butchered that), Patrick runs a space marine gulliman infantry heavy deathball list that also was very successful. Patrick uses his guilliman aggressively and pushes the army forward as one 3+ armor wall. Patricks list also has some weaknesses. Both of us are using the different tools to achieve the same results!
First of all congratulations to your performance mate! Really refreshing to see an off beat list performing so well.
Do you think this kind of infantry deat ball could work? Which units are best for putting into it?
I was toying with the idea of running a Blood Angels which had the same idea: Move a ball of Intercessor and Aggressors up the board, supported by the 5+ FnP banner, whilst your HQs deal with your opponents heavy stuff.
Could something like this work against the firepower of a Knight list? How does it fair against Eldar and Ynnari? (I actually have no Eldar / Ynnari players in my club... )
Any other units you would include? Besides say 20 Intercessors and 9 Aggressors?
I have a hard time picturing how my Marines would tackle even my Eldar, but can't square the hate Doom gets with how much I see it it actually do. My last game vs Marines, Quicken failed (bad dice despite CP reroll), and Doom was Statagem'd, and it was obvious to me that Quicken failing was the bigger blow.
@Lash,
Hopefully better SM player's than me answer. But remember both Reapers and Spears use D2 weapons with good AP. But a 5+FnP does nasty things to D2 weapons on W2 models.
Blood angels can bring some beat stick HQ's but they pale in comparison to the buffing and CC of Gman, but it's not a bad idea and definataly worth trying.
Ice_can wrote: Blood angels can bring some beat stick HQ's but they pale in comparison to the buffing and CC of Gman, but it's not a bad idea and definataly worth trying.
The difference though is Slamguinus can earn several times his points back on the charge when you've dumped several CP into it. I'm not actually sure on the math of Roboute charging a Knight but now I'm curious if it has been done or if someone else wants to. If not I can.
Ice_can wrote: Blood angels can bring some beat stick HQ's but they pale in comparison to the buffing and CC of Gman, but it's not a bad idea and definataly worth trying.
The difference though is Slamguinus can earn several times his points back on the charge when you've dumped several CP into it. I'm not actually sure on the math of Roboute charging a Knight but now I'm curious if it has been done or if someone else wants to. If not I can.
I didn't mean that Gman beats a slamguinius, more just he can do work in buff bot, CP farmer and CC. Not bad for 1 model, but his 400points is a hard sell against slamguinius.
Losing Gmans rerolling wound is a real kicker for sure. But gaining the FnP banner solves many problems such a list would have otherwise imo.
Plus the chapter tactic allows your HQ's to be your anti armor source.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also what would one leave behind in such a list for holding back objectives?
I think the new Primaris sniper guys (Eliminators?) might make a good back-field objective camper.
There's no doubting G-man's effectiveness, but there are other similar options that cost far less. A chapter master like Pedro Kantor, plus a lietenant, costs only just more than half G-man's cost. And they fill out the HQ requirements of a battalion rather than requiring you to take a lord of war.
Guilliman is also a beatstick though. And it's impossible to argue against the fact that armies with him in are doing well at tournaments, while those without him really are not.
Im a quite „new“ DeathWatch owner and I want to play and try them out with many different allies.
Now I thought about doing a Gman to Holy Emperor conversion and adding a detachment of SM to my DW.
The question now what are good units to pair with Gman? I thought of razorbacks, centurions, devestator squads, sniper scouts? Aggressors if I want to play Gman aggressively?
The idea would be to have a SM shooting castle and go with the DW to the middle of the board with the new Bolter Discipline rule for a nice 24“ coverage.
Im a quite „new“ DeathWatch owner and I want to play and try them out with many different allies.
Now I thought about doing a Gman to Holy Emperor conversion and adding a detachment of SM to my DW.
The question now what are good units to pair with Gman? I thought of razorbacks, centurions, devestator squads, sniper scouts? Aggressors if I want to play Gman aggressively?
The idea would be to have a SM shooting castle and go with the DW to the middle of the board with the new Bolter Discipline rule for a nice 24“ coverage.
I think it´s not a great idea to combine Gman with DW, since he really needs many units around him to justify the 400 points. If you want some marine allies go for BA and take a Batallion of 3 Scouts and some CQC HQ´s.
Im a quite „new“ DeathWatch owner and I want to play and try them out with many different allies.
Now I thought about doing a Gman to Holy Emperor conversion and adding a detachment of SM to my DW.
The question now what are good units to pair with Gman? I thought of razorbacks, centurions, devestator squads, sniper scouts? Aggressors if I want to play Gman aggressively?
The idea would be to have a SM shooting castle and go with the DW to the middle of the board with the new Bolter Discipline rule for a nice 24“ coverage.
I think it´s not a great idea to combine Gman with DW, since he really needs many units around him to justify the 400 points. If you want some marine allies go for BA and take a Batallion of 3 Scouts and some CQC HQ´s.
Thing is I:
I already allied BA to my DW and it did good
Now I want to try the „different flavors“ of SM with my DW (vanilla Marines, Space Wolves, Dark angels, Sister when they come out etc.)
Sure, makes sense. It's just that bobby aint a great pick. SW assault element might be interesting, or a vanilla backline? I've been toying with IFs for mortal wounds and DW for killy vet squads. If it works at all I'll report back.
Yeah Bobby G is too expensive for a (heavily) mixed list. You want to maximize the units near him.
I just found out that I could play a GMan, Predator, Repulsor list on 1750 points. A shame that most of my local tourneys run Ars Bellica missions that restrict your choices to 2 per datasheet (except troops).
I feel you mate, AB restrictions are really hard. If you are in western Germany there are ITC tournaments coming now.
Also you can take up to 5 times the same transport with the AB rule set afaik.
Crimson_ wrote: Yeah Bobby G is too expensive for a (heavily) mixed list. You want to maximize the units near him.
I just found out that I could play a GMan, Predator, Repulsor list on 1750 points. A shame that most of my local tourneys run Ars Bellica missions that restrict your choices to 2 per datasheet (except troops).
It might be worth giving that Techmarine a Beamer. It isn't terribly expensive with the price drop the core Techmarine received and allows more contribution throughout the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Otherwise, why not remove the Techmarine for a suicide Nullzone Jump Librarian?
I would maybe suggest switching out the las talon with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon. It gives you more shots at longer range. Additionally you can dump those savings into another icarus iron hail which gives you longer range and a better ap for yhe repulsor and a HB for a unit of the scouts for some sweet mortal wounds!
Otherwise, why not remove the Techmarine for a suicide Nullzone Jump Librarian?
I would advise against this. You need production out of your units every turn. Playing smart will enure your vehicles will last much longer then they should and wiith a techmarine in your list you will keep your vehicles continuing to do meaningful damage to you opponent throught the game.
Bobby G prefers ROF over quality of shots. Rerolling failed 2+s work out to a 16% improvement. Rerolling failed 6+s work out to an 83% improvement. So, assuming that two weapons are roughly equal in value without rerolls, the one that hits/wounds on worse will increase in value more with rerolls.
Nullzone feels like a trap. I've never seen a game where it would have been a reasonable strategy. It's really dicey to pull it off, and very costly if you try to pull it off and fail.
I would maybe suggest switching out the las talon with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon. It gives you more shots at longer range. Additionally you can dump those savings into another icarus iron hail which gives you longer range and a better ap for yhe repulsor and a HB for a unit of the scouts for some sweet mortal wounds!
Otherwise, why not remove the Techmarine for a suicide Nullzone Jump Librarian?
I would advise against this. You need production out of your units every turn. Playing smart will enure your vehicles will last much longer then they should and wiith a techmarine in your list you will keep your vehicles continuing to do meaningful damage to you opponent throught the game.
Have not thought about the heavy onslaught gatling cannon on the Repulsor. I might try this - thanks!
I would maybe suggest switching out the las talon with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon. It gives you more shots at longer range. Additionally you can dump those savings into another icarus iron hail which gives you longer range and a better ap for yhe repulsor and a HB for a unit of the scouts for some sweet mortal wounds!
Otherwise, why not remove the Techmarine for a suicide Nullzone Jump Librarian?
I would advise against this. You need production out of your units every turn. Playing smart will enure your vehicles will last much longer then they should and wiith a techmarine in your list you will keep your vehicles continuing to do meaningful damage to you opponent throught the game.
Techmarines only heal 2 wounds a turn. This works out to 10 wounds over a game, which sounds impressive.
However, this is assuming the opponent doesn't just kill the unit each turn.
Have not thought about the heavy onslaught gatling cannon on the Repulsor. I might try this - thanks
Or another option is give all the predators SB which now benifit from bolter drill as well as Kill Shot
Techmarines only heal 2 wounds a turn. This works out to 10 wounds over a game, which sounds impressive.
However, this is assuming the opponent doesn't just kill the unit each turn.
Actually I think they heal D3 wounds a turn but to your point the average should be 2. As you said even if they heal 10-12 wounds over the course of the game its the equivalent of a free predators worth of points over the course of the game! Your right though if your opponent can kill a unit per turn where you cant heal them you could always just sit him on an objective and your opponent cant target him (unless he has some sniper type weapons of course). Slap on a convsion beamer and you can continue to shoot away!
Sniper weapons aren't really dangerous outside MAYBE Rangers using Arqs. You should be fine. I also recommended the Conversion Beamer as well due to the low buy-in for Techs now.
What's your opinion on a primaris infantry deathball? (Preferably as Blood angels for that 5+ FnP banner)
Could something like this work or is it to weak and fragile against things like Ynnari or Knights?
Was thinking about running maybe 20 Intercessors and 9 Aggressors and letting my HQs deal with the heavier stuff from my opponent.
What's your opinion on a primaris infantry deathball? (Preferably as Blood angels for that 5+ FnP banner)
Could something like this work or is it to weak and fragile against things like Ynnari or Knights?
Was thinking about running maybe 20 Intercessors and 9 Aggressors and letting my HQs deal with the heavier stuff from my opponent.
I think that if anyone can do it blood angels have the best chance. My recommendation is that you get a deredeo dred or a custodes preator to give all your infantry a 5+ invul. as well as a 5++ FnP from your banner dude. The key with a death ball type list is you have to have extremely fast durable units that can close in on your opponent in 1 turn. For example the reason why veteran bikers are the preferred unit in that type of list is because they can potentially get a 20" movement with a 3+ invul. before a turn 2 assault. Doing it with primaris may be substantially harder due to the fact they have to pay more to get a weaker invul save and are much slower to close with the opponent. Although its somewhat mitigated with a FnP and the fact you can hopefully hide in some cover on the way to your opponent.
Either way though test it out and let us know how it does!
Vilehydra wrote: Did the venerable dreadnought get a price drop in CA or did I just imagine it?
Yeah it did. 3 with all range weapons are a good weapons platform assuming you go Ultramarines to avoid the issue of being charged and not being able to do a thing about it.
You definitely need more fuel for the Slamguinus' you have. Remove enough Intercessors from one squad to include a bare Techmarine and make it a Battalion. If there are points left over, Conversion Beamers for the Techmarines with Roboute should be fun at least.
What do you guys think of the new assassin rules? Evesors look stupid crazy good for 85 pts, and the idea that you pick your assassin during deployment so you can switch it out as needed for 1cp seems really good.
Azuza001 wrote: What do you guys think of the new assassin rules? Evesors look stupid crazy good for 85 pts, and the idea that you pick your assassin during deployment so you can switch it out as needed for 1cp seems really good.
Assassins are good but you really want to look at at what they can add to SMs that they cannot do already.
Eversor is actually my lowest choice for SMs since his main use is chaff clearing which we have in spades. Plus he doesn't get any special deployment and we are not a rush YOLO army in general.
Culexus adds much needed psychic protection and since most DM armies are some format of gunline won't mind the lack of special deployment. He would be my choice with GSC popular and eldar always good in most local metas.
Vindicare is very good but you can weigh your own scout snipers plus the shiny new primaris eliminators coming out in comparison.
Callidus is a medium choice in my mind as she is useful for the CP disruption but as above will almost certainly be alone since we are not an in your face army.
Looking at the evesor though for chaff clearing for 85 pts it seems crazy though. 8 attacks, plus an additional attack for every model it kills, plus attack again for 2cp and when it dies it does mortal wounds... even as a threat deterrent (you don't really want to charge me when i have him sitting there do you) it seems really good. Add in the if culexus is better because your facing a psycic army or vindicare if the army runs multiple low lvl chrs (free cp potentially for every chr sniped? Yes please) and i think they all could see use going forward. Hell, even the cp disruption of the callidus could be useful if you see your opponent only has 8 cp.
Azuza001 wrote: What do you guys think of the new assassin rules? Evesors look stupid crazy good for 85 pts, and the idea that you pick your assassin during deployment so you can switch it out as needed for 1cp seems really good.
Assassins are good but you really want to look at at what they can add to SMs that they cannot do already.
Eversor is actually my lowest choice for SMs since his main use is chaff clearing which we have in spades. Plus he doesn't get any special deployment and we are not a rush YOLO army in general.
Culexus adds much needed psychic protection and since most DM armies are some format of gunline won't mind the lack of special deployment. He would be my choice with GSC popular and eldar always good in most local metas.
Vindicare is very good but you can weigh your own scout snipers plus the shiny new primaris eliminators coming out in comparison.
Callidus is a medium choice in my mind as she is useful for the CP disruption but as above will almost certainly be alone since we are not an in your face army.
While we aren't a rushing YOLO army like you said, the nice thing about the Eversor is that, since we run Scouts anyway, that's potentially another 5 wounds an opponent would have to deal with before going after the Eversor. If not a chaff clearer, they'll be able to charge things and force a unit to fall back.
GW did a good job ensuring every Imperial player will buy a full set and everyone else will scream OP soup. The Eversor does seem hard to resist, though I do think the Vindicare has some potential if your list is already running sniper Scouts. The ability to average 5-6 wounds/turn on any char in LoS is pretty threatening. Heck, at only 85pts his d3 mortals to vehicles still comes out cheaper than a Deb squad AT without a cherub. And of course the other 2 have their great situational uses.
bort wrote: GW did a good job ensuring every Imperial player will buy a full set and everyone else will scream OP soup. The Eversor does seem hard to resist, though I do think the Vindicare has some potential if your list is already running sniper Scouts. The ability to average 5-6 wounds/turn on any char in LoS is pretty threatening. Heck, at only 85pts his d3 mortals to vehicles still comes out cheaper than a Deb squad AT without a cherub. And of course the other 2 have their great situational uses.
Well not cheaper exactly. Devastators with a Cherub and Heavy Bolter is 80 points.
That said, Vindicares don't need any babysitting and have literally double the range. I don't want to say they've removed Devastators completely, but it's hard to make a big case in their favor too.
Can pre-game strategems be affected by AoV? You can only do the Assassin requisition once per game, so a Vect or generations of planning may be an easy way to counter it, and cost you 85 points.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You definitely need more fuel for the Slamguinus' you have. Remove enough Intercessors from one squad to include a bare Techmarine and make it a Battalion. If there are points left over, Conversion Beamers for the Techmarines with Roboute should be fun at least.
I like this comment because it doesn't really care that the list won Heat 4 - it just tries to make wild claims of what is necessary for success, fully ignoring that it was already successful.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You definitely need more fuel for the Slamguinus' you have. Remove enough Intercessors from one squad to include a bare Techmarine and make it a Battalion. If there are points left over, Conversion Beamers for the Techmarines with Roboute should be fun at least.
I like this comment because it doesn't really care that the list won Heat 4 - it just tries to make wild claims of what is necessary for success, fully ignoring that it was already successful.
If someone posts a list, it is important to deconstruct it rather than just blindly saying "okay cool".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Otherwise what's the point of a forum besides echo chamber for yourself?
Vilehydra wrote: Can pre-game strategems be affected by AoV? You can only do the Assassin requisition once per game, so a Vect or generations of planning may be an easy way to counter it, and cost you 85 points.
I had a game tonight using a 1750 point version of Enron's list. I was actually building something a bit similar, intended to be an all-infantry Crimson Fist army. I thought I'd try using my two repulsors and three ancient battered predators (that I've owned since 3rd or 4th edition!) to see how they worked.
I have to say it worked pretty well!
Mission was cut off the head - first time either of us had tried it. Spearhead deployment, so at least there wasn't far to walk! Downside was I had only two characters...
I had a battalion with a primaris captain (fist of vengeance), lieutentant with relic of gathalmor, and 29 intercessors (20 of them veterans), 3 predators and two repulsors (twin las and HOG).
Opponent had a Ynnari battalion of Yvraine, Eldrad, 20 guardians and 2x5 avengers, plus 10 reapers and 9 scatter bikes (in one unit, can't remember which detachment) plus an alaitoc battalion of spiritseer, warlock, 3x5 rangers, 10 wraithblades and a wave serpent.
I started out playing uncharacteristically cagily. I didn't want to run into the middle and get minced by the wraithblades, so instead I had a 10-man squad stand still and use the rapid fire straagem. They shot dead 17 guardsment including their weapons platform. It was pretty awesome to have bolter marines actually kill something! I also killed a few rangers here and there. Repulsors advanced with 5 guys in each. I cursed myself for not deploying the characters in a repulsor. Predators dropped a couple of the wraithblades.
The remaining eldar came forward. Reapers killed a predator - nearly in the psychic phase and then finished it off and killed a couple of intercessors in shooting. We both got first strike.
Turn 2 I shot at the wraithblades a lot to no great effect, but managed to shoot dead 7 of the reapers (who couldn't hide from my repulsors). I charged the wraithblades with a repulsor, losing 4 wounds but forcing my opponent to use up his last 2 CPs to let them fall back and charge. I took out the unit of 9 scatter bikes through a combination of dakka from a repulsor (those guns that couldn't reach the reapers), from the 5 intercessors who'd been inside it, and their punching them in melee. 3 guys survived but they fled in the morale phase.
He then ran forward and the wraithblades charged in, killing my lieutenant. My captain heroically intervened and killed 4 of them, leaving only 2. He got onto the objective as well with his consolidate, so at the start of my turn 3 I actually got a VP! Or we thought I did... actually in retrospect I think he had 2 characters there so I shouldn't have scored.
We called it there. I'd actually taken the teeth out of his army now the wraithblades, bikes and reapers were gone. He was about to lose probably all three of his characters with intel, so he would struggle to get any points. Meanwhile I'd only lost a predator, my lieutenant and 8 or 9 intercessors.
Things would have been tougher if I hadn't gone first. My opponent was trying a shining-spear-less Ynnari list for the first time (the 9 scatter bikes were actually proxied spears) and it really didn't work. But the combination of the predators and repulsors was really great. It's a lot of targets for anyone to try and take down. If you leave repulsors alone (say if you're worried about killshot predators) then they will eventually kill everything on the board.
I liked the veteran intercessors. I was pretty happy with the squad that I combat squadded between the repulsors. I think a 17 point intercessor is now a pretty respectable model, with the beta bolter rules and option to get a third attack. Things like dire agengers, rangers and guardians were not happy to face these guys.
Game order I went first/second
Game 1: Went first
Game 2: Went second
Game 3: Went first
Game 4: Went first
Game 5 Went second
Game 6: Went first
All games I had a lower drop count then my opponent. As other have noted: You want the choice to go first or second. Keep your drops to under 12 to ensure you have the advantage in the roll off.
Games 1, 2 and 6 were games I needed to go first against my opponent
Games 3, 4 and 5 I could have gone first or second and the result of the game probably would have been the same
There are some things in the list I would change as I dont believe I was running it as efficiently as I could.
->My initial thoughts on taking the larger BT unit of scouts was so that I would have extra bodies to deny so my opponents couldn't easily smite me off. Hindsight is 5 would have probably worked just as well.
->I took sniper rifles on one of the scout units. This is more of a utility unit that should be effective as long as no one shoots at them. Usually they died within the first couple of turns. I probably would drop all the snipers and just keep the HB in the unit and make them BT.
->I probably would drop the BA detachment from the list as the captain tends to eat up all the CP in the list by himself. Any Eldar player worth his salt will just screen him out with rangers or other chaff units and then just keep a few units behind cover and jump them our when the unit outside dies. In the future I will replace him with a whirlwind scorpius and a Lt. with jump pack and teeth of terra. This should give you the advantage against eldar as the scorpius just murders bike and reapers and they cannot hide from you and you still retain some offensive capability.
->Veteran Interessors ARE A MUST TAKE. In my early playtest games one issue that was glaringly apparent was getting preds wrapped in CC. Once you get wrapped you are screwed if you dont have a unit that can do a ton of attacks to clear them off your tanks. The Interessors do this in spades as you are rocking 29 attacks (Full reroll with Gman). Popping the liberator strat to get extra attacks on 6's and you should get about 35-38 attacks with this unit. On top of that you can also attack again if you needed to! The CC is great but then you also can shoot up to 36 times with a st. 4 -1ap gun at something else before you charge in. All for a reasonable 156pts.
->Techmarine is my hidden gem in the list. This guy is so under-valued in any marine list that runs armor. As discussed before over the course of the game he on average heals 12 wounds to your tanks which is equivalent of an extra 150 or so points. He keeps your vehicles firing and moving as you pummel your opponents army. Your tanks stay stronger longer! I typically go with a bolter and chainsword as I find I am running most of the time to keep up with my vehicles. I went with the primarchs wrath bother as up to 4 st. 5 2D shots is never bad
->Chronus is my last choice. Honestly he is the cheapest HQ we can get which is why I took him. This list relies on tanks to get the job done. He gives his pred a 2+ to hit and heals 1 wound per turn. He also importantly saves you a drop as he starts in the vehicle. If and when his vehicle blows up he is a character that can now stand on an objective and still get you points!
Interesting point on drops. My list is designed for the new GW format where drop count is no-longer a factor. Actually I still don't have all that many. If you're running a couple of repulsors then Primaris characters can go inside anyway.
I'm a big fan of my Primaris captain with the fist of vengeance. He's not slamguinius but he is much cheaper in points and CPs. He stops things like gallants from bullying me too, because I have a very serious counter-punch.
->Chronus is my last choice. Honestly he is the cheapest HQ we can get which is why I took him. This list relies on tanks to get the job done. He gives his pred a 2+ to hit and heals 1 wound per turn. He also importantly saves you a drop as he starts in the vehicle. If and when his vehicle blows up he is a character that can now stand on an objective and still get you points!
Did you bring him just because it is cheap? I find him really useful in any game I play with him!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You have a player in your area scared of that? Wish I were that lucky.
If you’re talking about the Primaris Captain then yes, people at my club are learning to fear him. It’s because he’s a monster. He’ll typically kill more than his (87!) points in a single round of combat. He kills knights, Custodians, Shining spears, daemon princes and more knights. His best effort was probably dropping two winged hive tyrants in a single round of combat (with help from a librarian casting null zone and 3CPs). Winged hive tyrants are gone from the competitive scene now, but this guy is still plugging away.
Luckily I mostly play at tournaments where people haven’t usually come up against him. Mostly he just stands around handing out rerolls in what’s basically a gunline army. Sooner or later something will come along to try and beat up my guys in combat, and then this guy steps up. Good times.
Of course it’s not like he’s the main feature of my list. He costs 87 points! I bring other stuff as well.
It’s not an army that wins tournaments but it consistently does ok and is fun to play. I don’t invest much time in the tournament scene as I used to (I was best general at the UKGT a couple of times) but I still like to go along. So far I’ve had a very consistent 3:2 win/loss ratio with the army. Ynnari are still a problem, though I do sometimes beat them. Pretty much my whole army list got cheaper and/or better since the last event I went to though, which is nice. It’ll be interesting to see how I get on at this year’s finals.
Something I’ve just realised is that I should stick as many storm bolters on my vehicles as humanly possible, and especially on predators that might be using killshot. The beta bolter rules mean you’re getting 4 extra shots basically all the time for 2 points.
I'm shocked Custodes aren't making mincemeat of him. You kill 1.5 on average with the Captain, and the last two (at minimum) swing back with 3 wounds. That's assuming the Captain charged rather than the 3 Custodes (once again at minimum), in which case that's 5 wounds. That's also not counting the Spear wounding bonus Strategem.
Well yeah he dies all the time, of course he does. That’s fine - he’s cheap and he fights again if he dies. And to be honest Custodians on foot aren’t usually the problem – they are unlikely to get to me in the first place. He does have to fight jetbike Custodians quite a lot, but usually only after I’ve shot quite a lot of them dead, and never alone. I wouldn't just charge him on his own at a squad of 5 custodian guard. He'd wander off with the rest of my guys and keep telling them to reroll those 1s.
So for example in my game on Monday he heroically intervened and killed four wraithblades in a single round. That’s pretty normal. So instead of having 6 wraithblades locked in combat with my troops near the central objective I had two – and he’d have killed them in my turn if we hadn’t stopped it there.
The advantage he has is that the enemy comes to him. He doesn’t have to work to get across the board because he’s stood by my shooty units giving them rerolls to hit, and that’s where the enemy wants to go. The challenge is to keep him safe from being shot or charged by something nasty so that he can either counter-charge or, ideally, hit the enemy before they hit him. I find it works really well to use repulsors to charge first, soak overwatch and lock most enemies. Then I have the captain charge the side of a unit where not much can hit him back.
I’m not saying this guy is some kind of iwin button. He’s just a good use of 87 points. I am happy with the little bonus from the Crimson fist CTs though. He can now fire his plasma pistol overcharged, because almost everyone outnumbers him at least 2:1!
I am also shocked. In that your Space Marine Primaris Captain kills Daemon Prince as if it was grots. In my experience, the Daemon Prince always smashed my Smash Captains as if they were nothing more than insects. By math my Captain on bike / jumppack with TH/SS can only do 6 damages on that TSon DP even with the 3CP fight again. The DP fights back usually deal 5-6 wounds, results in 2 failed saves and 4 dmg taken. Next round the DP goes first and the Captain is dead while the DP lived with 2 wounds.
Crimson_ wrote: One side question: how does your Captain with PF/PP cost 87 points? My CA18 says 92 (78+9+5).
Huh, yes he does. And that's what's written on my army list, so at least I haven't been cheating! Seems I can't read though...
Sorry if it's coming across like I think this guy is the best unit in 40k or something. He's just a good HQ who buffs my shooting and then threatens things in cc, without costing much. He obviously isn't Guilliman, but he costs less than a quarter of Guilliman's points and fills an HQ slot.
He doesn't solo the world on his own, but that's ok because I bring quite a large army along with him. He tends to get to pick what he charges (and doesnt usually pick an undamaged daemon prince of Tzeench if he can possibly avoid it!) because the enemy is coming towards him anyway.
Crimson_ wrote: One side question: how does your Captain with PF/PP cost 87 points? My CA18 says 92 (78+9+5).
Huh, yes he does. And that's what's written on my army list, so at least I haven't been cheating! Seems I can't read though...
Sorry if it's coming across like I think this guy is the best unit in 40k or something. He's just a good HQ who buffs my shooting and then threatens things in cc, without costing much. He obviously isn't Guilliman, but he costs less than a quarter of Guilliman's points and fills an HQ slot.
He doesn't solo the world on his own, but that's ok because I bring quite a large army along with him. He tends to get to pick what he charges (and doesnt usually pick an undamaged daemon prince of Tzeench if he can possibly avoid it!) because the enemy is coming towards him anyway.
I'd say the same, eventhough i run him as Ultramarine with the Sanctic Halo. He packs quite a good punch and with a 3+ invul very resilient. Some opponents underestimate this (and the accompaning Lieutenant) when charging the backline units.
I probably would drop the BA detachment from the list as the captain tends to eat up all the CP in the list by himself. Any Eldar player worth his salt will just screen him out with rangers or other chaff units and then just keep a few units behind cover and jump them our when the unit outside dies. In the future I will replace him with a whirlwind scorpius and a Lt. with jump pack and teeth of terra. This should give you the advantage against eldar as the scorpius just murders bike and reapers and they cannot hide from you and you still retain some offensive capability.
First and foremost congratulations on your placing! You make us marine players proud.
My question is about the Whirlwind Scorpius. Isn't that a relic which makes you take an additional elite slot? What is good to run with that then?
I probably would drop the BA detachment from the list as the captain tends to eat up all the CP in the list by himself. Any Eldar player worth his salt will just screen him out with rangers or other chaff units and then just keep a few units behind cover and jump them our when the unit outside dies. In the future I will replace him with a whirlwind scorpius and a Lt. with jump pack and teeth of terra. This should give you the advantage against eldar as the scorpius just murders bike and reapers and they cannot hide from you and you still retain some offensive capability.
First and foremost congratulations on your placing! You make us marine players proud.
My question is about the Whirlwind Scorpius. Isn't that a relic which makes you take an additional elite slot? What is good to run with that then?
Ancients are the only thing worth running if you have any models to benefit. Otherwise, Aggressors are never a bad pick.
First and foremost congratulations on your placing! You make us marine players proud.
My question is about the Whirlwind Scorpius. Isn't that a relic which makes you take an additional elite slot? What is good to run with that then?
So I have been thinking about this. The question is what do I want to get out of the last selection in the list? My initial thought was to go with a simple 6pt cenobyte servitor unit. Stick them on an objective and just sit on a backfield objective the entire game. They are a BT unit so in a pinch you could always use it as another source of 4+ deny and they allow the BT scout units to auto pass moral checks if they are within 12". If I go this route I have about 40pts left to spend in the list. If you cut back on Interessors you may have more points to play around with but I would recommend keeping the squad size to 8-10 so that you are getting the most bang for your buck if/when you decide to upgrade them. I mentioned you could go with a Lt. instead of chronus but I have found chronus is a steal for what he potentially does, I decided to go with an HB on one of my scout units for some mortal wound options and a unit of 3 company veterans with SS and chainswords. My reasoning is that I have a little bit of extra CC and I can chuck some wounds off on Guilliman if needed. Conversely they cheap as a unit and I wouldn't feel bad keeping them sitting on a backfield objective the entire game.
Ancients are the only thing worth running if you have any models to benefit. Otherwise, Aggressors are never a bad pick.
Agreed on the ancients. Its too bad the army isnt more infantry based to benifit more from this dude. I would love to get a unit of agressors but Im so limited on points when its all said and done.
Did you bring him just because it is cheap? I find him really useful in any game I play with him!
Not at all! Him being cheap as chips is the icing on the cake. The 2+ BS is amazing. He repairs his own vehicle (awsome!). As long as you dont roll a 1 when his vehicle dies you now have a character that can still do things. He saves you a drop when deploying and makes a kill shot predator straight up deadly!
For what it’s worth, I think the Scorpius isn’t worth taking a tax unit just to unlock. It does do a job, and pretty well, but it’s pretty fragile for its price. If there’s a lot of LoS-blocking terrain then it’s going to live longer and will be more valuable, but otherwise it’s unspectacular. The tax unit effectively just adds to the Scorpius’ cost, as they are pretty unlikely to accomplish anything. That changes a lot if there’s another elite unit that you actually want, obviously.
I hadn’t given much consideration to the idea of a techmarine for my army. I probably should. Now his servo arms are free he’s come down in cost a lot. Actually his flamer and plasma pistol are cheaper too.
This will also help reduce the cost of a TFC, down by almost 30 points. At 92 points (if my maths is right this time!) for the gun and gunner it’s actually a pretty compelling choice now, I think. It does a similar job to the Scorpius but is much easier to hide and brings a useful little character along with it.
It would also let me take either my relic Deredeo or Leviathan. Hmm...
Mandragola wrote: For what it’s worth, I think the Scorpius isn’t worth taking a tax unit just to unlock. It does do a job, and pretty well, but it’s pretty fragile for its price. If there’s a lot of LoS-blocking terrain then it’s going to live longer and will be more valuable, but otherwise it’s unspectacular. The tax unit effectively just adds to the Scorpius’ cost, as they are pretty unlikely to accomplish anything. That changes a lot if there’s another elite unit that you actually want, obviously.
I hadn’t given much consideration to the idea of a techmarine for my army. I probably should. Now his servo arms are free he’s come down in cost a lot. Actually his flamer and plasma pistol are cheaper too.
This will also help reduce the cost of a TFC, down by almost 30 points. At 92 points (if my maths is right this time!) for the gun and gunner it’s actually a pretty compelling choice now, I think. It does a similar job to the Scorpius but is much easier to hide and brings a useful little character along with it.
It would also let me take either my relic Deredeo or Leviathan. Hmm...
Deredeo is an Elite so you still have to manage a elite unit (which I guess you can take the 20 point servitors for backfield objectives?)
Oh yeah I keep forgetting. That thing seems like a heavy support dread if anything is. Shame as it would work quite well with the FTC. He could repair it a bit.
Honestly the three predators are probably the best option. I’m just fishing around for alternatives to see if anything is out there. It probably isn’t.
Mandragola wrote: Oh yeah I keep forgetting. That thing seems like a heavy support dread if anything is. Shame as it would work quite well with the FTC. He could repair it a bit.
Honestly the three predators are probably the best option. I’m just fishing around for alternatives to see if anything is out there. It probably isn’t.
All of the FW Dreads are just randomly placed in slots. I am half-surprised the Leviathan isn't in Fast Attack.
Mandragola wrote: Oh yeah I keep forgetting. That thing seems like a heavy support dread if anything is. Shame as it would work quite well with the FTC. He could repair it a bit.
Honestly the three predators are probably the best option. I’m just fishing around for alternatives to see if anything is out there. It probably isn’t.
All of the FW Dreads are just randomly placed in slots. I am half-surprised the Leviathan isn't in Fast Attack.
Or even put into a LoW spot lol
But yeah I feel like three predators will get you more. You just need some larger distractions so they won't get focused down.
Probably true. And I’ve got my two repulsors to be the distraction unit.
To be honest I’m not a huge fan of the predators, but I can’t think of what else to take. I think one option would be to drop the predators and one repulsor for a knight crusader and some helverins. Not sure what’s better, though the knights would be more durable.
I've always liked predators. With Chronus, the three predators, and Gman, and then the stratagem they can do a ton of damage. Having the autocannons do 4 damage does surprise most opponents.
I've tested the Knight + Helverins before with moderate success. Probably just my meta but most people in my area prepare to take down knights, with more Knights or other means.
Though I am tempted to run 3 predators, 2 repulsors and a knight just to see lol
Had another game last night against my Eldar-playing friend*. This time we played narrow the search, with table quarters deployment. I deployed and went first again.
My list was the captain, lieutenant, 8 intercessors with a fist in a repulsor and 2x10 intercessors on foot. Then I had a knight crusader (Thermal cannon and ironstorm), an armiger warglaive and a helverin from my House Taranis army.
The Eldar army was all Alaitoc. Battalion of 15 guardians, 2x5 rangers, a farseer and warlock. Spearhead of 2 fire prisms, a warlock and 9 reapers. Air wing of Crimson hunter exarch and 2 hemlocks. And 2 wave serpents.
I made a bit of a mistake with the crusader, sending it forward to kick in a wave serpent that had deployed forward. It actually didn’t kill the serpent and then had all sorts of horrible psychic powers done to it, followed by a load of shooting, so it died straight away. There was no need for this and I was kicking myself a bit. Meanwhile my intercessors flooded the centre of the board and got into cover. I killed a fire prism and all but one of the rangers.
As the game progressed I managed to get rid of most of the scary things in the enemy army. The armiger made it into combat but couldn’t kill much and the helverin wasn’t accomplishing a great deal against the Alaitoc planes either. I did manage to kill a hemlock and the wave serpents, and got an intercessor into combat with the dark reapers on turn 3 (although four of his friends were killed by overwatch on the way in!).
The real stars were the intercessors. Once they were on the objectives in cover they weren’t going anywhere, and that won me the mission. The scary enemy stuff was busy trying to kill my knights and repulsor, leaving our troops to fight each other, which was horribly one-sided. I won the game without my opponent ever really threatening the central objective.
Things definitely didn’t go all my way. A hemlock took my captain out (after he killed a wave serpent) by smiting and then hitting him with its guns. There doesn’t seem to be any real defense against this, other than to try and fully surround characters at all times.
I was pretty unimpressed by the Helverin. In theory eldar flyers are exactly the kind of target it’s designed to kill. In reality it needed at least a 5+ to hit them and they were getting 4+ saves (or 3+ on turn 1 as my opponent paid to be in cover). It just wasn’t enough of a threat.
In future I think I’ll just run two armigers, which seem to complement the intercessors really well. The intercessors are great against hordes while the armigers are speedy and good against tougher things. Or at least they can get in the way of tougher things for a bit.
The armiger actually did decent damage to the eldar tanks because it could easily get within 12” of them, so it hit them fairly easily and got past their armour. But unlike the helverin it also did damage in the assault phase. Or at least it would have done if the farseer hadn’t passed all his invulnerable saves!
Here’s a revised army list, based on what I’ve got out of these games. It’s exactly 1750, which is the value of this event.
Battalion - 5CPs
HQ Primaris Captain 92
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist
HQ Primaris Lieutenant 74
Master-crafted Auto Bolt Rifle
Troops 8 Intercessors 145
Power Fist
Auxiliary Grenade launcher
Troops 10 Intercessors 174
Power Sword
2 Auxiliary Grenade launchers
Troops 10 Intercessors 174
Power Sword
2 Auxiliary Grenade launchers
Dedicated Transport Repulsor 299
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Ironhail heavy stubber
Two Krakstorm grenade launchers
Three Storm Bolters
Two fragstorm grenade launchers
Super-heavy detachment - 3CPs
Lord of War Knight Crusader 468
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Thermal Cannon
Ironstorm Missile Pod
Lord of War Armiger Warglaive 162
Heavy Stubber
Lord of War Armiger Warglaive 162
Heavy Stubber
*If it’s ever possible to be friends with an Eldar player
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You basically described a problem that almost everyone has with the Eldar Fliers.
Not much to do outside spamming Stalkers with a Chapter Master nearby.
That or ignore them and kill everything else. Eldar flyers are annoying but they won't have time to get rid of 30 intercessors on objectives, and they don't score themselves.
My poijnt is that I don't think it's worth taking units to kill eldar flyers if those units still can't actually do the job. A stalker averages 2 damage to an Eldar flyer, or 3 near a chapter master. It's not enough, especially in a unit that's not that good against other stuff. Meanwhile an armiger warglaive within 12" does about 3 damage as well.
Marines are one of the armies with an obvious choice of TH + jumppack and just beat it to death as no stacking minus to hit stacking shenanigans etc in CC.
But yeah nothing really does well at shooting stacked minus to hit flyers heck even a deredeo is only meh at it and I suspect sicaran autocannons to be faq'd at somepoint.
Ice_can wrote: Marines are one of the armies with an obvious choice of TH + jumppack and just beat it to death as no stacking minus to hit stacking shenanigans etc in CC.
But yeah nothing really does well at shooting stacked minus to hit flyers heck even a deredeo is only meh at it and I suspect sicaran autocannons to be faq'd at somepoint.
You can only take so many of those is the issue. They also start costing a pretty penny too once you've taken like 4 of them.
Yeah smash captains cost a fair bit - almost as much as a hemlock. And the hemlocks can just go somewhere else.
The thing I've found is that i'm likely to end up within 12" of flyers with my close-range shooting units. Things like repulsors, knights and so on. So they can fire at them with a less bad modifier than dedicated AA stuff further away can do.
So I think my feeling is to not really worry too much about eldar flyers. They are irritating, but they are also expensive and they can be killed with normal stuff, if you even need to.
Due to the larger base of the captain on bike his aura goes a little further. He is also survivable with T5 and an additional wound. I gave him the Shield Eternal and let him sit back behind my tank line and then would speed out and take out key units or tie units up to free our objective cappers.
Granted we did terrible that tournament, but the missions were the most awkward ones I have played.
What do you guys think about a salamander outrider detachment with a captain on a bike with storm bolter and thunder hammer (which I'll have to kitbash?)
With him three attack bikes, two with heavy bolters, one with a multi melta and two squads of 3 bikes with two flamers and a combi flamer each including an attack bike with multi melta.
For 512 points I get a bike smash captain, 32 T5 wounds with 3+, 14-16" movement, fifty four, I think, bolter shots, two heavy bolters, six flamers and three multi meltas.
I'm thinking they should be good objective grabbers, with the captain and the flamers being decent charge deterrents. Re-rolling ones with the captain and the salamander tactics giving the multi meltas a guilliman re-roll.
I think that’s probably more bikes than you would want. Rather than an outrider detachment I’d get a battalion with a fast attack choice or two. Basically taking 4 units to get 1cp doesn’t seem worth it when you could have 5 units for 5 cps.
I’ve had some ok results from scout bikers. They all come with shotguns for free and the Sergeant can have a storm bolter. Great dakka. They are a little faster too.
kingheff wrote: What do you guys think about a salamander outrider detachment with a captain on a bike with storm bolter and thunder hammer (which I'll have to kitbash?)
With him three attack bikes, two with heavy bolters, one with a multi melta and two squads of 3 bikes with two flamers and a combi flamer each including an attack bike with multi melta.
For 512 points I get a bike smash captain, 32 T5 wounds with 3+, 14-16" movement, fifty four, I think, bolter shots, two heavy bolters, six flamers and three multi meltas.
I'm thinking they should be good objective grabbers, with the captain and the flamers being decent charge deterrents. Re-rolling ones with the captain and the salamander tactics giving the multi meltas a guilliman re-roll.
You'd get more bang for your buck doing a different Chapter.
Thanks for the feedback, I must admit I may have got a bit carried away!
Originally I was looking at a techmarine and three attack bikes for a super cheap detachment. Then I wanted to fluff it up for my salamander army...
Attack bikes do look a very solid choice to me though. For 111 pts you get three bikes with12 wounds, six bolters and three heavy bolters. For 115 pts you get five scout bikes with more firepower close up but less wounds and worse saves. Scout bike squads are a great unit and I don't think attack bikes are far behind.
I'd always take a multi melta on one though, both for the fluff and to take advantage of the salamander re-roll.
I
I'm now using intercessors to provide my anti-horde power, and so far it's working. So I've ditched my bikes.
111 points would buy about 6.5 intercessors. You get the same wounds, though spread around more models and easier to get into cover. I'm not sure how 6.5 bolt rifles compares to 6 bolters and 3 heavy bolters - probably not quite as good but not dreadful. And 18 attacks in close combat, if upgraded to veterans, which can be the decisive factor.
You could argue that the bikes are better. The thing is that the intercessors are troops, so they bring CPs (many of which they use up to be fair) and they have objective secured. This makes a really big difference because shifting ~30 veteran intercessors off an objective isn't all that easy to do, especially if they are in cover.
I'm still working out the impact of the changes from Vigilus, chapter approved, the new crimson fist rules and the beta bolters. For now all I can say is that intercessors are an awful lot better than they used to be. A 170 point squad that can fire 40 shots at 30" range is a problem for a lot of people. At only 8.5 points per wound there's no really efficient way to get rid of them.
They are no good at fighting vehicles of course. Against IKs and the like my approach is to field a bunch of my own repulsors and knights. Generally these guys will batter each other to a standstill, but as long as that means the big guns aren't pointed at my intercessors, then the objectives will tend to be mine.
Or at least that's the plan! Doesn't always go that way...
Intercessors are very decent for sure but I tend to use them as backline units.
I'm looking to add more speed to my marines, especially as a long time eldar player, marines do seem to be a bit static.
I can agree on that. The one thing I dislike about the beta bolter rules is that they make you stand still.
The approach I'm taking is for the intercessors to hold the centre while other faster stuff (knights in my case) go forward.
The chapter approved missions place almost all the objectives in the middle of the board, outside of deployment zones. A force of tough obsec guys with respectable fighting abilities helps a lot.
I'm still on my quest to make the best primary marine list I can without Guilliman or a Knight. Here's my newest thought for 2000pts:
Spoiler:
Loyal 32 - Aquila
Assassin
RG Brigade - Indomidus Crusaders
Smash Captain - Shield Eternal
Primaris Lt - Field Commander - Greyshield, Reliquary of Gathalmor, power sword
Techmarine - Power axe, servo arm
Primaris Ancient - Warlord - Storm of Fire
Deredeo Dreanought - Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Las, missile
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Las, missile
Attack Bike - Heavy bolter
Attack Bike - Heavy bolter
3 Scout Bikes - Storm bolter
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters, missile
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters, missile
5 Veteran Intercessors - Power sword
9 Veteran Intercessors - Power sword
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Bolters
Gives me a lot of bodies, a minor speedy bike contingent, and 13cp for mortal wound strats and double firing the intercessors. I could also take the Emperor Ascendant banner for 2cp or dropping the minimal psychic protection, but with only a few HBs and sniper scouts in the banner radius, not sure if that's worth it. I haven't tried the Greyshield power yet, but figured giving 2 vet intercessor units the ability to reroll a hit/wound or withdraw and shoot for 1 turn seemed worth 1cp.
I'm still working out the impact of the changes from Vigilus, chapter approved, the new crimson fist rules and the beta bolters. For now all I can say is that intercessors are an awful lot better than they used to be. A 170 point squad that can fire 40 shots at 30" range is a problem for a lot of people. At only 8.5 points per wound there's no really efficient way to get rid of them.
I've been toying with a GT list for the June throne of skulls with 30 veteran intercessors, robby and multiple dev cents with heavy grav. I've found these guys to hit like a ton of bricks but the cents die pretty easily afterwards, unless they can get a toe in a forest or something. I'm running Ultramarines CT, but want to give the Greyshield a go to get the ignore cover or maybe the RGCT for turn 1.
bort wrote:I'm still on my quest to make the best primary marine list I can without Guilliman or a Knight. Here's my newest thought for 2000pts:
Spoiler:
Loyal 32 - Aquila
Assassin
RG Brigade - Indomidus Crusaders
Smash Captain - Shield Eternal
Primaris Lt - Field Commander - Greyshield, Reliquary of Gathalmor, power sword
Techmarine - Power axe, servo arm
Primaris Ancient - Warlord - Storm of Fire
Deredeo Dreanought - Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Las, missile
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Las, missile
Attack Bike - Heavy bolter
Attack Bike - Heavy bolter
3 Scout Bikes - Storm bolter
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters, missile
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters, missile
5 Veteran Intercessors - Power sword
9 Veteran Intercessors - Power sword
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Bolters
Gives me a lot of bodies, a minor speedy bike contingent, and 13cp for mortal wound strats and double firing the intercessors. I could also take the Emperor Ascendant banner for 2cp or dropping the minimal psychic protection, but with only a few HBs and sniper scouts in the banner radius, not sure if that's worth it. I haven't tried the Greyshield power yet, but figured giving 2 vet intercessor units the ability to reroll a hit/wound or withdraw and shoot for 1 turn seemed worth 1cp.
I wouldn't say I was the most competitive of 40k players, but how will you deal with knights? I have a Gallant/Castellan combo that I think would squish that list pretty hard... Maybe it plays better than it looks? It does have a lot of units, so I imagine it scores well whilst stuff dies all over the place.
Honestly I’m unsure at this point, I haven’t made an open play in quite a while and my friends don’t have a Knight. But, the list is based off Reese’s older UM list core (yes, I know it’s better mortal fishing with Guilliman) and he said he had no issue with knights. Assuming I get to shoot first, the list can definitely 2 turn kill a knight. Figure 5 wounds from devs including strat, 3 wounds from scouts, and 8ish from the dreads. Add in some assorted other shots and that’s killing a regular knight in 1 turn or over half a castellan. If the dreads are dead first, I’m probably ignoring knights unless there’s no better mortal targets.
Edit: Ugh, I should stop posting at work, keep making bonehead mistakes. I wrote the above phrasing thinking a regular knight was 18W not 24, so it's not assorted shots, it's all my shots or throwing in the captain . But, I added up the firepower of the list, if the knight is within range of all my guys, the list can actually on average deal 20some wounds to a T8 target (I'm assuming 3+/4++ not rotated 3++, cause if rotated I'm going to fire at something else). So, realistically it's 2 turns to kill a knight, but it's possible. That's also not counting the assassin, who probably wouldn't ever be targeting a knight, but for theory purposes could be a Vindicare and add another 2 mortals.
The new Warlord Traits in Shadowspear are as follows (note: they can only be given to Phobos Characters):
Shoot and Fade (After making a shooting attack, your Warlord can move as if it was the movement phase. Must advance as well)
Master of the Vanguard (Add 1 to all move, advance, and charge rolls to all Chapter units within 6" of your Warlord)
Stealth Adept (-1 from all to-hit rolls against your Warlord.)
Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades or relics)
Princeps of Deceit (as described in the War Com article)
Target Priority (as described in the War Com article)
casvalremdeikun wrote: The new Warlord Traits in Shadowspear are as follows (note: they can only be given to Phobos Characters):
Shoot and Fade (After making a shooting attack, your Warlord can move as if it was the movement phase. Must advance as well)
Master of the Vanguard (Add 1 to all move, advance, and charge rolls to all Chapter units within 6" of your Warlord)
Stealth Adept (-1 from all to-hit rolls against your Warlord.)
Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades or relics)
Princeps of Deceit (as described in the War Com article)
Target Priority (as described in the War Com article)
Could you share with us the source, please?
- Shoot and Fade can have some applications... move your warlord Libby in front of your units, psych away, shoot something and then run back behind your units.
- Master of the Vanguard goes well with melee units or just stuff you want in your enemy's face ASAP
- Stealth Adept comboes nicely with Heroe's Cloak relic from Dark Angels (another -1 to hit)
- Marksman's Honours seems to be the worst of the bunch, as the Phobos characters have terrible ranged weapon choices
Master of the Vanguard might actually make BTTH/SS Termies or Vanguard Vets be able to charge from Deep Strike reliably. Shame we're not allowed the Librarian, and I'm assuming they've all got <PRIMARIS> so no Drop Pods?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Master of the Vanguard might actually make BTTH/SS Termies or Vanguard Vets be able to charge from Deep Strike reliably. Shame we're not allowed the Librarian, and I'm assuming they've all got <PRIMARIS> so no Drop Pods?
Correct. But this is definitely making me think about putting that Lieutenant in Phobos Armor in my Blood Angels. He is a great addition to a CC army.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Master of the Vanguard might actually make BTTH/SS Termies or Vanguard Vets be able to charge from Deep Strike reliably. Shame we're not allowed the Librarian, and I'm assuming they've all got <PRIMARIS> so no Drop Pods?
That was my immediate thought as well! Great minds think alike.
Especially with how the Librarian can get into a good position as well and doesn't really need the buffing powers except maybe just for himself (I see good applications for the extra movement one as a way to charge into something as a tarpit).
HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.
Interesting. That does seem to work. I’m not sure you’d be able to use BT-specific units in that case, as you’d need to use a home brew chapter and they wouldn’t have the <BT> keyword which they need. Not sure though, and otherwise it seems legit.
That said, wouldn’t the drop lieutenant be the more obvious choice in this case? I get that you can infiltrate the librarian but he’s then got to live through turn one. Or your opponent could just move away.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.
Giving up Helbrecht (and the other special characters) for this one Librarian does not seem anwyhere near worth it though.
Running the Jump Lieutenant is how I would do it, but it'd require him to be your Warlord, and there aren't any worthwhile melee units to use him on anyway. TH/SS Terminators and Vanguard Veterans just do not cut it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.
Giving up Helbrecht (and the other special characters) for this one Librarian does not seem anwyhere near worth it though.
Running the Jump Lieutenant is how I would do it, but it'd require him to be your Warlord, and there aren't any worthwhile melee units to use him on anyway. TH/SS Terminators and Vanguard Veterans just do not cut it.
Actually, I'd argue giving up Helbrect is fine. He just gives a Strength bonus right? You could run Tyberos, the Carcharodons dude, and get the same benefit. Run them as having the reroll charges (makes sense, right?) And you're gold.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.
Giving up Helbrecht (and the other special characters) for this one Librarian does not seem anwyhere near worth it though.
Running the Jump Lieutenant is how I would do it, but it'd require him to be your Warlord, and there aren't any worthwhile melee units to use him on anyway. TH/SS Terminators and Vanguard Veterans just do not cut it.
Actually, I'd argue giving up Helbrect is fine. He just gives a Strength bonus right? You could run Tyberos, the Carcharodons dude, and get the same benefit. Run them as having the reroll charges (makes sense, right?) And you're gold.
Yeah Helbrecht is cool, but non-essential.
I'd still give the trait to a drop lieutenant and play actual BTs though I think. The librarian doesn't actually add huge amounts. Your opponent can see where he is and either kill him before your stuff appears or wander off, since you've told him where your attack is coming.
Really thinking that the infiltrators are going to be excellent objective holders. 12 inch deep strike bubble along with a medic built into the squad and smoke grenades to get -1 to hit once per game. As well as their boltguns being auto wound on a 6 to hit. Ideally have a squad of 6 or 7 sit on an objective with the librarian close by. They can sit and fire reliably from their position and heal any casualties while the Libby could use shrouding on them or smoke!
I think they are the most useful unit from shadow spear for sure, the suppressors seem quite poor and the eliminators are OK. Infiltrators will definitely find a way in for me though.
As I said in some other thread on the new guys, I actually don't think the Suppressors are that bad (except in appearance. Bleh). Auto cannons are pretty good and they are a nonvehicle way to take them. And they aren't quite as overpriced as plasma inceptors or hellblasters.
Personally, I prefer the look of an army with a few vehicles, but the way the game works a few is just a prime AT weapon target, so Suppressors give me a route to get some more heavy guns in a pure infantry list. Mortal wound strats aside, I'd rather have a 33pt Suppressor than a Devastator, so I'm definitely considering a few of them for my list ideas.
bort wrote: As I said in some other thread on the new guys, I actually don't think the Suppressors are that bad (except in appearance. Bleh). Auto cannons are pretty good and they are a nonvehicle way to take them. And they aren't quite as overpriced as plasma inceptors or hellblasters.
Personally, I prefer the look of an army with a few vehicles, but the way the game works a few is just a prime AT weapon target, so Suppressors give me a route to get some more heavy guns in a pure infantry list. Mortal wound strats aside, I'd rather have a 33pt Suppressor than a Devastator, so I'm definitely considering a few of them for my list ideas.
They're actually 35, as you have to buy them grav chutes. Still the same as a hellblaster.
I actually think all three of the squads in shadowspear will find their uses. Suppressors are essentially alternate hellblasters, with an option to do less damage from a much safer location. Eliminators look like they'll be great objective holders and the cheapers primaris unit currently available - which could come in very handy if you want something like a relic leviathan. Infiltrators do look great, but I wonder if it's not better to just take eliminators, since they aren't much more expensive and they're tougher, thanks to their cloaks. The librarian and lieutenant both definitely have their uses too. It's really just the captain I can't ever see myself fielding. I'm thinking of painting mine up just as an infiltrator sergeant, so I've got 2x5 squads and can add a medic to one if I fancy it. Come to think of it I could probably convert a reiver to another medic without too much hassle.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: HOWEVER, keep in mind that the Librarian rule applies to the Black Templars specifically, not Chapters using their Chapter Tactic. At least I read that on a thread here somewhere and just never did a followup if that's true.
Giving up Helbrecht (and the other special characters) for this one Librarian does not seem anwyhere near worth it though.
Running the Jump Lieutenant is how I would do it, but it'd require him to be your Warlord, and there aren't any worthwhile melee units to use him on anyway. TH/SS Terminators and Vanguard Veterans just do not cut it.
Actually, I'd argue giving up Helbrect is fine. He just gives a Strength bonus right? You could run Tyberos, the Carcharodons dude, and get the same benefit. Run them as having the reroll charges (makes sense, right?) And you're gold.
He's also a Chapter Master where you don't have to pay 3 CP. Him and the relic are the only real reasons for even considering running Black Templars in the first place rules-wise, since the melee units in the book are atrociously bad no matter what buff characters you throw at them.
I have been testing BT with Gulliman for the +1 to charge, and I have to say they still fail charges a LOT and I have been playing my BTs as UMs sometimes now . Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus WT, for fun anyway.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Really thinking that the infiltrators are going to be excellent objective holders. 12 inch deep strike bubble along with a medic built into the squad and smoke grenades to get -1 to hit once per game. As well as their boltguns being auto wound on a 6 to hit.
Someone explain to me the hype for infiltrators. These guys are a) overcosted, what they have over intercessors is not worth 5 points, b) the boltgun is really nothing special. It's still a s4 ap0 d1 24" gun. 1 in 6 shots autowounds, yay. These guys are not damage dealers, they probably aren't even good against infantry like intercessors with their ap-1 and 30". c) The 12" bubble is good, but if it's that core to your enemy's strategy is, these guys will be splatted turn 1 if they go first, or you will have to pop smoke. d) a mini apothecary doesn't seem worth it for the rumoured 10 extra points unless you're taking all ten.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Really thinking that the infiltrators are going to be excellent objective holders. 12 inch deep strike bubble along with a medic built into the squad and smoke grenades to get -1 to hit once per game. As well as their boltguns being auto wound on a 6 to hit.
Someone explain to me the hype for infiltrators. These guys are a) overcosted, what they have over intercessors is not worth 5 points, b) the boltgun is really nothing special. It's still a s4 ap0 d1 24" gun. 1 in 6 shots autowounds, yay. These guys are not damage dealers, they probably aren't even good against infantry like intercessors with their ap-1 and 30". c) The 12" bubble is good, but if it's that core to your enemy's strategy is, these guys will be splatted turn 1 if they go first, or you will have to pop smoke. d) a mini apothecary doesn't seem worth it for the rumoured 10 extra points unless you're taking all ten.
Their entire value IMO is in their ability to 100% shutdown deepstriking charges within 12. It's absolutely brutal against some builds and can win the game for you. They are also able to forward deploy and screen out the enemy and capture objectives. This great and all except one major problem you touch on. They are very expensive for doing next to nothing besides that. 22 points for a model with a pathetic boltgun is just sad. They do pathetic damage and are too expensive to be taken in mass to screen. The apothecary is very expensive to the point where why would I ever even consider taking one except in a 10 man squad and even then why would I ever even consider taking a 10 man squad that is very expensive, has very little offensive output and is very vulnerable to morale? They are not a great unit at all IMO and would only be worth it if you only fought DS heavy ork lists and genestealer cult.
Aleister_Dakka wrote: I have been testing BT with Gulliman for the +1 to charge, and I have to say they still fail charges a LOT and I have been playing my BTs as UMs sometimes now . Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus WT, for fun anyway.
Keep in mind that, if you're only using Roboute for that, you have less to charge with because of how many points he takes up. Two of the same squad charging the same target is basically a 65% chance one makes the charge for sure from 9".
Aleister_Dakka wrote: I have been testing BT with Gulliman for the +1 to charge, and I have to say they still fail charges a LOT and I have been playing my BTs as UMs sometimes now . Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus WT, for fun anyway.
Keep in mind that, if you're only using Roboute for that, you have less to charge with because of how many points he takes up. Two of the same squad charging the same target is basically a 65% chance one makes the charge for sure from 9".
I was trying to just get it to work in casual games. I went with Gulliman + Celestine, 2 squads of assault Terminators, and a Redemptor Dread for my chargers, so 5 units charging in ideally. The results really weren't great over the games I played. I'm sure if you went Black Tide you'd get more charges off, but that strategy doesn't look so great to me this edition, even casually.
Aleister_Dakka wrote: I have been testing BT with Gulliman for the +1 to charge, and I have to say they still fail charges a LOT and I have been playing my BTs as UMs sometimes now . Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus WT, for fun anyway.
Keep in mind that, if you're only using Roboute for that, you have less to charge with because of how many points he takes up. Two of the same squad charging the same target is basically a 65% chance one makes the charge for sure from 9".
I was trying to just get it to work in casual games. I went with Gulliman + Celestine, 2 squads of assault Terminators, and a Redemptor Dread for my chargers, so 5 units charging in ideally. The results really weren't great over the games I played. I'm sure if you went Black Tide you'd get more charges off, but that strategy doesn't look so great to me this edition, even casually.
It depends what you're tiding with. Vanguard are still not awful, Sternguard can charge into something to hopefully finish it off, there's a bunch of Terminators, Scouts of course, etc.
Yes... The strategy can 'work' in the sense that you can either A. get into close combat reliably by running lots of charging units or B. can actually destroy things in close combat, but not both in my experience. If you're charging with 10 squads of Crusaders, some will make it in, but even if they're full strength 20-man blobs they don't kill much and it is highly unlikely that they will be full strength, even 10 man squads in transports. If you're charging with Terminators, the ones that make it in will hopefully kill stuff, but my experience is nothing at all makes it in a lot of times. My best strategy has been using RG, Celestine, Terminators, and Dreads - because if they get into melee they can actually kill things; I use lots of Hurricane bolters and stuff to clear chaff so I can actually charge worthy targets. Ultimately, my chaff clearing does a lot better than my charging does every game; though of course RG is great at bashing in close combat when he gets there, the idea of 'making more charges' doesn't really play out. Sure, you statistically have better chances, but I haven't seen it make enough of a difference that running more guns isn't far better.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Really thinking that the infiltrators are going to be excellent objective holders. 12 inch deep strike bubble along with a medic built into the squad and smoke grenades to get -1 to hit once per game. As well as their boltguns being auto wound on a 6 to hit.
Someone explain to me the hype for infiltrators. These guys are a) overcosted, what they have over intercessors is not worth 5 points, b) the boltgun is really nothing special. It's still a s4 ap0 d1 24" gun. 1 in 6 shots autowounds, yay. These guys are not damage dealers, they probably aren't even good against infantry like intercessors with their ap-1 and 30". c) The 12" bubble is good, but if it's that core to your enemy's strategy is, these guys will be splatted turn 1 if they go first, or you will have to pop smoke. d) a mini apothecary doesn't seem worth it for the rumoured 10 extra points unless you're taking all ten.
Their entire value IMO is in their ability to 100% shutdown deepstriking charges within 12. It's absolutely brutal against some builds and can win the game for you. They are also able to forward deploy and screen out the enemy and capture objectives. This great and all except one major problem you touch on. They are very expensive for doing next to nothing besides that. 22 points for a model with a pathetic boltgun is just sad. They do pathetic damage and are too expensive to be taken in mass to screen. The apothecary is very expensive to the point where why would I ever even consider taking one except in a 10 man squad and even then why would I ever even consider taking a 10 man squad that is very expensive, has very little offensive output and is very vulnerable to morale? They are not a great unit at all IMO and would only be worth it if you only fought DS heavy ork lists and genestealer cult.
My thinking is: you need troops. These guys are pretty useful troops that can set up on objectives, prevent the enemy appearing anywhere near you (or draw fire, being pretty difficult to remove from cover without serious weapons).
Nobody is claiming that they'll somehow take out the enemy army. They are just primaris dudes with slightly different bolt rifles. FWIW, their guns are better than rifles against quite a lot of targets - generally those with better toughness than saves, and obviously most daemons.
I will admit that I'd never take a squad bigger than 5. The medic guy is a waste of time. May as well buy an actual apothecary. He's a cool concept but shouldn't cost any more points. Anyway 5 guys gets you your bubble, which is why these guys exist. 2x5 might be the way to go, but no more than that I think.
Hey guys, what's the general consensus on the new vanguard?
I know the Cpt is pretty useless and the Lt has his merits for being able to deepstrike.
I know I plan on taking eliminators and a squad of suppressors also seems viable. Infiltrators seem alright but priced closer to intercessors original point value and need to go down.
I've preordered it but I likely won't field anything in it. Maybe the eliminators since they're cheap, but the rest seem meh, or overcosted. Just gonna paint them up and save them for the occasional narrative game.
fraser1191 wrote: Hey guys, what's the general consensus on the new vanguard?
I know the Cpt is pretty useless and the Lt has his merits for being able to deepstrike.
I know I plan on taking eliminators and a squad of suppressors also seems viable. Infiltrators seem alright but priced closer to intercessors original point value and need to go down.
The captain isn't useless at all. Stick him in your backlines next to a unit of Hellblasters, give him the warlord trait that gives a unit +1 to hit. 10 Hellblasters, hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s and immune to exploding + 12" deepstrike protection. Only Phobos characters can take the warlord trait, but it's so good.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.
Not a fan, Heavy guns (autocannons no less which aren't great vs the other heavy weapons in the arsenal) on a mobile platform that will be hiting on 4s. With 6 shots. Depends on the points, but not a fan as it stands.
I missed that +1 to hit warlord thing. I assume that’s 1 unit or is it an aura? An aura and I’d take Lt McKnifey over my current Lt with Storm of Fire for sure.
Bleh, figured. A max unit of hellblasters or a Leviathan or something would be really nice, but yeah, compared to buffing like 5-6 units at once with base ap 0 or -1...I think the main reason I’d consider it instead is I often forget to apply storm, but wouldn’t forget the +1.
fraser1191 wrote: Hey guys, what's the general consensus on the new vanguard?
I know the Cpt is pretty useless and the Lt has his merits for being able to deepstrike.
I know I plan on taking eliminators and a squad of suppressors also seems viable. Infiltrators seem alright but priced closer to intercessors original point value and need to go down.
The captain isn't useless at all. Stick him in your backlines next to a unit of Hellblasters, give him the warlord trait that gives a unit +1 to hit. 10 Hellblasters, hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s and immune to exploding + 12" deepstrike protection. Only Phobos characters can take the warlord trait, but it's so good.
Oh, I have not seen the warlord traits in the box yet. So they are locked in for Phobos characters? I wonder if they'll keep that in the eventual codex too
CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.
Not a fan, Heavy guns (autocannons no less which aren't great vs the other heavy weapons in the arsenal) on a mobile platform that will be hiting on 4s. With 6 shots. Depends on the points, but not a fan as it stands.
I prefer to look at the Supressors as a rapid redeploy unit. Set them up where they can do damage, then move them where they can be more useful.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.
Not a fan, Heavy guns (autocannons no less which aren't great vs the other heavy weapons in the arsenal) on a mobile platform that will be hiting on 4s. With 6 shots. Depends on the points, but not a fan as it stands.
35 ppm for the Suppressors versus 59 for Plinceptors. Park em in the back and hose down the board.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.
Not a fan, Heavy guns (autocannons no less which aren't great vs the other heavy weapons in the arsenal) on a mobile platform that will be hiting on 4s. With 6 shots. Depends on the points, but not a fan as it stands.
35 ppm for the Suppressors versus 59 for Plinceptors. Park em in the back and hose down the board.
If we're just parking them in the back, might as well bring devastators.
Hopefully these guys will get different wargear when they get a full kit. As they are now, completely counter intuitive.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That +1 to hit only affects one squad at a time as far as I know. That makes it a dud compared to Storm of Fire.
eh i'm not so sure. Hellblasters are already -4. What good is another AP? Hitting on 2s and being unable to blow yourself up is pretty epic for a big squad of guys.
I recently started a Raptors Primaris only force. They seemed fitting to me because of the tacticool style of the Primaris line. I discovered I have a metric fethton of anti infantry firepower but no anti vehicle firepower to speak of. Of course I am using Raven Guard Chapter Tactics.
So. What are my options? I already have a Repulsor but that doesn't cut it. That thing is too good at Horde killing to not let it do that.
I also will only include Units that fit the visual theme of the army.
- Hellblasters seem not too good at it because of d2 maximum and range issues.
- Redemptor. Meh. Not enough.
- Inceptors are fugly. I will never ever buy any of those.
- Predators are not fitting the visual theme
- Deredeo Dreads do fit the visual theme but I'm not sure if the autocannons/ 2 shots of lascannon will cut it
- Leviathan Dreads do not fit the visual theme
- Xiphon ... I'm not sure if I like the looks of it
- Stormtalon is fugly but I guess I could fix the visuals of that one. Question is - is it any good?
- Sicaran Venator does seem a little expensive points wise
- Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer - has anyone fielded one of those? I kinda like the looks of it
- Astraeus .... I'm one of those guys who actually likes how it looks. 700+ points means that this thing is about half my army every game. I don't know if that thing gets me anywhere.
I recently started a Raptors Primaris only force. They seemed fitting to me because of the tacticool style of the Primaris line. I discovered I have a metric fethton of anti infantry firepower but no anti vehicle firepower to speak of. Of course I am using Raven Guard Chapter Tactics.
So. What are my options? I already have a Repulsor but that doesn't cut it. That thing is too good at Horde killing to not let it do that.
I also will only include Units that fit the visual theme of the army.
- Hellblasters seem not too good at it because of d2 maximum and range issues.
- Redemptor. Meh. Not enough.
- Inceptors are fugly. I will never ever buy any of those.
- Predators are not fitting the visual theme
- Deredeo Dreads do fit the visual theme but I'm not sure if the autocannons/ 2 shots of lascannon will cut it
- Leviathan Dreads do not fit the visual theme
- Xiphon ... I'm not sure if I like the looks of it
- Stormtalon is fugly but I guess I could fix the visuals of that one. Question is - is it any good?
- Sicaran Venator does seem a little expensive points wise
- Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer - has anyone fielded one of those? I kinda like the looks of it
- Astraeus .... I'm one of those guys who actually likes how it looks. 700+ points means that this thing is about half my army every game. I don't know if that thing gets me anywhere.
Any ideas? I need input
What kind of vehicles / monsters are you going to beat?
If they are Leman Russ Battle Tanks, Chaos "normal" Daemon Engines, Nidz Carnifexes level MCs, or even a single Baneblade level tank, the list of units you have would do decent work.
If you are aiming at fighting an army of decked out IK, Magnus + Morty list. I suggest you give up. Nothing in SM army can kill enough of those thing before getting tabled.
My local meta likes to throw in the occasional super Heavy / Tank Company / Vehicle heavy list
I'm afraid my single repulsor with its las-ripper won't do much then. I have a lot of aggressors which can punch vehicles and the sheer volume of small arms fire I can throw down range does also chip away at vehicles but still my primaris are pretty limited when I have to face multiple Russes or something alike.
So what should I get? Here is a list of things I consider:
- Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer (damn that's a mouthful) maybe even two of those
- Multiple Lascannon Tarantulas (3-4)
- Astraeus
- Sicaran Venator (although one might get shot off the board pretty quickly)
Morkphoiz wrote: My local meta likes to throw in the occasional super Heavy / Tank Company / Vehicle heavy list
I'm afraid my single repulsor with its las-ripper won't do much then. I have a lot of aggressors which can punch vehicles and the sheer volume of small arms fire I can throw down range does also chip away at vehicles but still my primaris are pretty limited when I have to face multiple Russes or something alike.
So what should I get? Here is a list of things I consider:
- Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer (damn that's a mouthful) maybe even two of those
- Multiple Lascannon Tarantulas (3-4)
- Astraeus
- Sicaran Venator (although one might get shot off the board pretty quickly)
- 2 Deredeo Dreads
The other thing to conaider is the unit tax you have to pay to take relic units which can get punishing if your taking multiple relic units.
The laser destroyer has potential but it's weapons just feel underwhelming.
The Sicaran still compairs well to a predator, but are showing the lack of GW love when compaired to Leman Russ commanders, especially post CA.
Deredeo's I'm a big fan of, 2+BS with a +1 against fly, when stationary can really mess with eldar.
But fundamentally marines are limited to lascannons and paying 25 points for one shot has way to many points of failure, 8th edition favours quantity over quality.
I thought about the sicaran venator as well, but a lot of times a Venerable Contemptor with two twin lascannons comes out ahead. And he has a 5+ invulnerable save and 6+ fnp. I that fits your asthetics.
Of those the lascannon is generally the best with great Str, range, AP and damage, cost wise the Twin Lascannon is 20% cheaper than two single ones so looking for units that pack those is likely a good option. This generally leaves you with the predator (not so good) or dreadnoughts. A venerable with twin Las/Missile is pretty effective for its cost or if you have access to forgeworld a Contemptor Mortis with 2x Twin Lascannon is one of the more cost effective Anti-tank options in the game. Whether that fits your theme is up to you of course...
One last option is a smash captain or two, multiple thunder hammers to the face deals with lots of problems but vanilla marines don't do it as well as BA.
Ironically, one of our AA tanks is also pretty good at hunting Tanks.
The Hunter essentially has a Lascannon with re-roll to hit and +1 to hit against fliers (no penalty against non-fliers), mounted on a T8(!) chassi - all for the low sum of 80 points.
How to take on heavy vehicles with Primaris? My answer is: you can't. You need allies to do it for you. Use your marines for what they're good at, which right now is killing hordes, an sub in other stuff to take out enemy heavies.
The obvious choice for the job is a House Raven Castellan. It wins shoot-outs with other vehicles. Their armour is irrelevant and it pours out damage, safe from return fire with its 3++.
Before Castellans existed I did fine against vehicle armies using a couple of repulsors and stuffing at least 10 hellblasters in them. They can still mess up most vehicles but a Castellan can out-range them, doesn't care about their -4ap and takes out the repulsors for fun. You can't beat them, so join them. Take your own castellan, or something a bit cheaper like a crusader.
It feels like a shame to sub in another army, but I don't think there are any single-codex armies currently doing all that well competitively. Tau and orks can just about hold their own but otherwise it's different flavours of Eldar, Chaos and Imperial soup that win events.
Mandragola wrote: How to take on heavy vehicles with Primaris? My answer is: you can't. You need allies to do it for you. Use your marines for what they're good at, which right now is killing hordes, an sub in other stuff to take out enemy heavies.
The obvious choice for the job is a House Raven Castellan. It wins shoot-outs with other vehicles. Their armour is irrelevant and it pours out damage, safe from return fire with its 3++.
Before Castellans existed I did fine against vehicle armies using a couple of repulsors and stuffing at least 10 hellblasters in them. They can still mess up most vehicles but a Castellan can out-range them, doesn't care about their -4ap and takes out the repulsors for fun. You can't beat them, so join them. Take your own castellan, or something a bit cheaper like a crusader.
It feels like a shame to sub in another army, but I don't think there are any single-codex armies currently doing all that well competitively. Tau and orks can just about hold their own but otherwise it's different flavours of Eldar, Chaos and Imperial soup that win events.
Except at that point why take marines, guard do the chaff killing with more obsec and more CP's to feed that Castellen.
The reason I’m taking marines now is that they have a bit of staying power, very much unlike guardsmen. It requires some actual effort to remove intercessors from cover, and they are able to kill things.
Guard can certainly kill chaff, but are vulnerable to small arms fire in return. An army based around intercessors in cover (hopefully) and tough vehicles doesn’t really have anything that dies quickly to dakka.
Of course, a lot depends on the missions you’re being asked to achieve. A lot of formats now are using fixed objective placement, often quite centrally, which seriously counts against gunlines. The event I’m going to this weekend uses the CA18 missions, which give scoring every turn instead of at the end. So the plan is to take the objectives as early as I can and hold onto them for as long as possible. It’s just a shame that infiltrators aren’t out yet, as I’d definitely bring a squad if I could.
LOL Infantry are not susceptible to small arms. That's a myth being purported by their defenders. No other troop is more durable to small arms. Outside maybe Intercessors.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL Infantry are not susceptible to small arms. That's a myth being purported by their defenders. No other troop is more durable to small arms. Outside maybe Intercessors.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that imperial guard infantry aren't vulnerable to being shot? I'll admit it takes quite a bit of shooting to get rid of them as they are so cheap, but I don't see how you can argue that they don't die when shot.
fraser1191 wrote: I prefer to look at the Supressors as a rapid redeploy unit. Set them up where they can do damage, then move them where they can be more useful.
It would be really nice if there were some stratagems to make use of that mobility. At the moment the only one I can think of is Blood Angel specific (on wings of fire)
Really plasma inceptors are a lot better. If I want to deepstrike with a shooting unit - it needs to annihilate something when it comes down. Plus now I can take a big unit and use the +1 to hit warlord trait on them and remove probably close to their point value on the drop without killing any of my own models. It is really just sad that I can't also cast the new powers on plasma inceptors - they would become a lynchpin in my new army design if they were. Unfortunately they are just an overpriced suicide unit ATM - Sadly - this is really one of the best units space marines actually have to offer.
fraser1191 wrote: I prefer to look at the Supressors as a rapid redeploy unit. Set them up where they can do damage, then move them where they can be more useful.
It would be really nice if there were some stratagems to make use of that mobility. At the moment the only one I can think of is Blood Angel specific (on wings of fire)
It would be nice isf space marines had any stratagems at all. They mostly have none. No defensive buffs outside of mortal wounds on vehicals. No offensive buffs that can't be duplicated by an aura. A bunch more trash that requires specific units of 3. Nothing to increase mobility. Nothing to allow units to come in from reserve.
First post on Dakka Dakka. I'm looking for advices against, well, you know who, 3++ Castellans.
I play Salamanders and the core of my army revolves around Primaris marines and the loyal 32.I got a gak ton of Dakka but I clearly lack anti-Knight stuff. Here are tthe first 1660pts (which leaves me with 340pts to find an answer to Knights). I have 2 Battalions and 1 Spearhead detachment, so "plenty" of CPs.
- Smash Captain
- Librarian
- Lieutenant
- 2x10 Intercessors (Vigilus Veterans for the sweet rapid fire 2 stratagem) w/ a Power Fist on the Sergeant (that's optional but as a Salamander and the Vigilus Veteran thingy, he has 4 Attacks rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound. It surprises a lot of people. Randomely boost him with Might of Heroes and suddenly it's like having another Smash Captain. It DOES surprise opponents).
- the usual loyal 32.
- Heavy Weapons team: 3x3 Mortars
That's a lot of bodies on the ground and as you can see, there's plenty to deal with horde armies.
Now my issue is obviously Knights. The only weapons I have that can deal with Knights are:
- 5 Devastators
- 10 Hellblasters
- 2x Redemptor Dreadnoughts
- 1 Smash Captain.
Now the Salamander tactics helps a lot, but that's not quite enough I have 340pts left (I can re-arrange things to make it ~400), and here are the options I have considered:
- 2x Tank Commanders
- More Devastator Squads: 3x5 w/ LC + HB or LC+ML - 1x Xiphon Intercessor and another Dev Squad
- 2x Predators
- 1x Leviathan Dreadnought
- Some Assassins, I'm not sure if there's one that stands out against Knights though.
- More Hellblasters ?
- A Sicarian Venator ? (The one with the Neutron Cannon)
- Does the Adeptus Mechanicus offer anything relevant against Knights ?
First post on Dakka Dakka. I'm looking for advices against, well, you know who, 3++ Castellans.
I play Salamanders and the core of my army revolves around Primaris marines and the loyal 32.I got a gak ton of Dakka but I clearly lack anti-Knight stuff. Here are tthe first 1660pts (which leaves me with 340pts to find an answer to Knights). I have 2 Battalions and 1 Spearhead detachment, so "plenty" of CPs.
- Smash Captain
- Librarian
- Lieutenant
- 2x10 Intercessors (Vigilus Veterans for the sweet rapid fire 2 stratagem) w/ a Power Fist on the Sergeant (that's optional but as a Salamander and the Vigilus Veteran thingy, he has 4 Attacks rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound. It surprises a lot of people. Randomely boost him with Might of Heroes and suddenly it's like having another Smash Captain. It DOES surprise opponents).
- the usual loyal 32.
- Heavy Weapons team: 3x3 Mortars
That's a lot of bodies on the ground and as you can see, there's plenty to deal with horde armies.
Now my issue is obviously Knights. The only weapons I have that can deal with Knights are:
- 5 Devastators
- 10 Hellblasters
- 2x Redemptor Dreadnoughts
- 1 Smash Captain.
Now the Salamander tactics helps a lot, but that's not quite enough I have 340pts left (I can re-arrange things to make it ~400), and here are the options I have considered:
- 2x Tank Commanders
- More Devastator Squads: 3x5 w/ LC + HB or LC+ML - 1x Xiphon Intercessor and another Dev Squad
- 2x Predators
- 1x Leviathan Dreadnought
- Some Assassins, I'm not sure if there's one that stands out against Knights though.
- More Hellblasters ?
- A Sicarian Venator ? (The one with the Neutron Cannon)
- Does the Adeptus Mechanicus offer anything relevant against Knights ?
Accept that your redeptors are dead from the off, kill all the dang guardsmen that make that list function and then beat up the Castellen in CC as it has no invulnerable save in CC a 3+ Armour save and T8 are what smash captains are built for destroying.
Martel732 wrote: They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.
I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.
In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.
So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.
Martel732 wrote: They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.
I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.
In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.
So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.
That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.
Mandragola wrote: How to take on heavy vehicles with Primaris? My answer is: you can't. You need allies to do it for you. Use your marines for what they're good at, which right now is killing hordes, an sub in other stuff to take out enemy heavies.
The obvious choice for the job is a House Raven Castellan. It wins shoot-outs with other vehicles. Their armour is irrelevant and it pours out damage, safe from return fire with its 3++.
Before Castellans existed I did fine against vehicle armies using a couple of repulsors and stuffing at least 10 hellblasters in them. They can still mess up most vehicles but a Castellan can out-range them, doesn't care about their -4ap and takes out the repulsors for fun. You can't beat them, so join them. Take your own castellan, or something a bit cheaper like a crusader.
It feels like a shame to sub in another army, but I don't think there are any single-codex armies currently doing all that well competitively. Tau and orks can just about hold their own but otherwise it's different flavours of Eldar, Chaos and Imperial soup that win events.
I want to build a coherent looking Army. No soup. Definatly no overpowered pos Like the castellan. I will not ever touch one of these broken abominations. They're not even good Models. They are literally the same size of Questoris class Knights with quadruple the guns. Just pathetic.
I bought a Xiphon and 3 Lascannon Tarantulas. Much more fitting for my Guys.
Martel732 wrote: They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.
I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.
In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.
So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.
That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.
That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.
So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.
Martel732 wrote: They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.
I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.
In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.
So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.
That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.
That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.
So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.
Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.
It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.
Martel732 wrote: They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.
I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.
In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.
So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.
That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.
That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.
So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.
Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.
It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.
Grenadier doesn’t improve their saves. I think you probably mean take cover.
Ultimately when you roll dice things can all go horribly wrong. That’s actually less likely when rolling tons of dice at guardsmen, but it still happens.
I find the -1 ap that intercessors bring is very valuable. It’s kind of obvious but models do tend to die a lot more consistently to them.
Are they just too fragile (at the end of the day, the average dev squad only have 5 W and a 3+).
In terms of sheer damage output (against large targets), is there a more efficient unit in the codex ?
For 105 you got a LC and a HB that can pump 2d3 mortal wounds, and you got the reroll thingy from the Sarge.
Any reason we don't see 4 or 5 dev squad in every 2k comp ?
aoutp wrote: Guys, how good are Devastator right now ?
Are they just too fragile (at the end of the day, the average dev squad only have 5 W and a 3+).
In terms of sheer damage output (against large targets), is there a more efficient unit in the codex ?
For 105 you got a LC and a HB that can pump 2d3 mortal wounds, and you got the reroll thingy from the Sarge.
Any reason we don't see 4 or 5 dev squad in every 2k comp ?
You cannot take 4-5 squads of Dev because of rule of three.
Of the 3 Devastator Squads you take, Castellan Knight and Crusader Kinght will swipe them easily as If they are worthless insects, If you go up against Knight army.
A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.
I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.
Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.
Mandragola wrote: A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.
I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.
Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.
That stratagem might be the only thing Space Marine have which can reliably put a couple wounds on IK, Magnus and the like.
Mandragola wrote: A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.
I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.
Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.
That stratagem might be the only thing Space Marine have which can reliably put a couple wounds on IK, Magnus and the like.
Is it worth taking 3 dev squads with a single HB in each instead of 3 scouts squads, just to get access to the signum (+1 to hit rolls) and armorium cherub (2d3 instead of d3) ?
Mandragola wrote: A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.
I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.
Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.
That stratagem might be the only thing Space Marine have which can reliably put a couple wounds on IK, Magnus and the like.
It's not all that reliable really though, is it?
Firstly, you need your devastators to be alive. This is tricky when they are so incredibly vulnerable to shooting and close combat, especially against armies like knights. And of course you still need to hit and it costs a CP every time. And then it causes just 2 wounds on average to a target with tons of wounds. It's nowhere near enough to kill them.
Mandragola wrote: A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.
I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.
Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.
That stratagem might be the only thing Space Marine have which can reliably put a couple wounds on IK, Magnus and the like.
Is it worth taking 3 dev squads with a single HB in each instead of 3 scouts squads, just to get access to the signum (+1 to hit rolls) and armorium cherub (2d3 instead of d3) ?
Yes, nothing but good things to say about this.
If your meta has lots of flying units, consider a ML for the missile strat too.
Add an Ancient so that the unit can also trigger hellfire shells whenever they die. An apothecary could be valuable for returning the HB back to you.
HBDevs with a hellfire I feel like sit in the same realm as say sniper scouts. Their damage per point over the course of an entire game is quite good. However, what they lack is that potential big hit to really put the hurt on something turn 1 before the enemy can fire back. So either you need a bunch of similar stuff to all fire together or you don’t bother.
Martel732 wrote: They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.
I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.
In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.
So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.
That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.
That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.
So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.
Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.
It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.
Grenadier doesn’t improve their saves. I think you probably mean take cover.
Ultimately when you roll dice things can all go horribly wrong. That’s actually less likely when rolling tons of dice at guardsmen, but it still happens.
I find the -1 ap that intercessors bring is very valuable. It’s kind of obvious but models do tend to die a lot more consistently to them.
It's actually not overkill.
5 Vets with Bikes and Storm Bolters is 40 shots. With Roboute nearby, 35 hit and 31 wound. The moment you have cover and pop Take Cover, you on average kill exactly 10.
That means there's actually a good chance you could fail to kill one.
Martel732 wrote: They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.
I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.
In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.
So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.
That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.
That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.
So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.
Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.
It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.
Grenadier doesn’t improve their saves. I think you probably mean take cover.
Ultimately when you roll dice things can all go horribly wrong. That’s actually less likely when rolling tons of dice at guardsmen, but it still happens.
I find the -1 ap that intercessors bring is very valuable. It’s kind of obvious but models do tend to die a lot more consistently to them.
It's actually not overkill.
5 Vets with Bikes and Storm Bolters is 40 shots. With Roboute nearby, 35 hit and 31 wound. The moment you have cover and pop Take Cover, you on average kill exactly 10.
That means there's actually a good chance you could fail to kill one.
I think the chances of killing no models with 3+ saves with 31 wounds are pretty tiny. The chances of not wiping out the unit would be pretty high though - requiring only a slightly below average result - if that's what you meant. Of course, the chances of 1 or 2 models sticking around through the morale phase after their unit lost 8-9 models are also quite small!
aoutp wrote: Guys, how good are Devastator right now ?
Are they just too fragile (at the end of the day, the average dev squad only have 5 W and a 3+).
In terms of sheer damage output (against large targets), is there a more efficient unit in the codex ?
For 105 you got a LC and a HB that can pump 2d3 mortal wounds, and you got the reroll thingy from the Sarge.
Any reason we don't see 4 or 5 dev squad in every 2k comp ?
You cannot take 4-5 squads of Dev because of rule of three.
Of the 3 Devastator Squads you take, Castellan Knight and Crusader Kinght will swipe them easily as If they are worthless insects, If you go up against Knight army.
um considering that most knight profiles are multi damage. How are other marine units going to last longer vs a knight?
Devistators are great. I like taking a mixed squad, with 2 laz, 1 missle, one heavy bolter, and a couple extra guys to soak damage. Their big weakness is their lack of mobility, because heavy weapons. Calling them fragile.. is silly. The whole codex is fragile, we don't get free invuns on everything like everyone else.
Martel732 wrote: They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.
I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.
In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.
So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.
That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.
That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.
So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.
Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.
It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.
Grenadier doesn’t improve their saves. I think you probably mean take cover.
Ultimately when you roll dice things can all go horribly wrong. That’s actually less likely when rolling tons of dice at guardsmen, but it still happens.
I find the -1 ap that intercessors bring is very valuable. It’s kind of obvious but models do tend to die a lot more consistently to them.
It's actually not overkill.
5 Vets with Bikes and Storm Bolters is 40 shots. With Roboute nearby, 35 hit and 31 wound. The moment you have cover and pop Take Cover, you on average kill exactly 10.
That means there's actually a good chance you could fail to kill one.
I think the chances of killing no models with 3+ saves with 31 wounds are pretty tiny. The chances of not wiping out the unit would be pretty high though - requiring only a slightly below average result - if that's what you meant. Of course, the chances of 1 or 2 models sticking around through the morale phase after their unit lost 8-9 models are also quite small!
I run the math on website programme. It shows that the chances of 5 biker Storm Vet killing at least 10 guardsmen are 63.5%. That means the failing rate would be 36.5%.
Well that probability would say it is OK to shoot the guardsmen with Storm Vets. But with a failing rate of over 1/3, you should seriously take the failure into consideration when planning for that move.
After repeatedly consistent bad luck in the game while experienced many incredible luck on my opponent side, I would only call an event with less than 25% failing rate as "reliable" If I am on the active side.
When guessing If enemy's move would be successful, I would put the threshold at a successful probability of over 40%.
aoutp wrote: Guys, how good are Devastator right now ?
Are they just too fragile (at the end of the day, the average dev squad only have 5 W and a 3+).
In terms of sheer damage output (against large targets), is there a more efficient unit in the codex ?
For 105 you got a LC and a HB that can pump 2d3 mortal wounds, and you got the reroll thingy from the Sarge.
Any reason we don't see 4 or 5 dev squad in every 2k comp ?
You cannot take 4-5 squads of Dev because of rule of three.
Of the 3 Devastator Squads you take, Castellan Knight and Crusader Kinght will swipe them easily as If they are worthless insects, If you go up against Knight army.
um considering that most knight profiles are multi damage. How are other marine units going to last longer vs a knight?
Devistators are great. I like taking a mixed squad, with 2 laz, 1 missle, one heavy bolter, and a couple extra guys to soak damage. Their big weakness is their lack of mobility, because heavy weapons. Calling them fragile.. is silly. The whole codex is fragile, we don't get free invuns on everything like everyone else.
Yes basically If you go up against IK, prepare to loss more than 15 marines per turn to only the Castellan and Crusader.
If you use Biker Veterans with StormShield, they still likely (more than 40% chances) to kill 9 to 10 of those.
But against other armies with less competitive builds, Marines may be a little tougher.
The idea is for a super castle, and Lias Issodon starts on the board, with the Storm of Fire trait. Then the troops try hide and grab objectives. The eliminators and vindicare might deploy with the caste, might not depending on the board. Interceptor is there for shenanigans, killing anything with fly and not being too bad at ground attack. Techmarine is there to heal the mortis dread and becasue he's the cheapest HQ for the spearhead detachment. Will be trying this out on sunday against another raven guard list which I'm fairly sure will contain a leviathan and at least one sicaran, but it's really designed to take out a tau list I've now lost twice to.
The idea is for a super castle, and Lias Issodon starts on the board, with the Storm of Fire trait. Then the troops try hide and grab objectives. The eliminators and vindicare might deploy with the caste, might not depending on the board. Interceptor is there for shenanigans, killing anything with fly and not being too bad at ground attack. Techmarine is there to heal the mortis dread and becasue he's the cheapest HQ for the spearhead detachment. Will be trying this out on sunday against another raven guard list which I'm fairly sure will contain a leviathan and at least one sicaran, but it's really designed to take out a tau list I've now lost twice to.
If you going super castle I would try two 5 man squads of the infiltrators (the ones that deny deepstrike within 12 inches).Yes they are super expensive, but positioned correctly they could make your castle functionally immune to deepstrike charges which is critical for castles in some match-ups. If you go up against an army that has no deepstriking they can be used for screening or board control. Lower damage output is absolutely worth the board control.
Also for assassins, you should always be spending the CP to choose whichever one you want before the game. My two cents anyways.
Vilehydra wrote: If you going super castle I would try two 5 man squads of the infiltrators (the ones that deny deepstrike within 12 inches).Yes they are super expensive, but positioned correctly they could make your castle functionally immune to deepstrike charges which is critical for castles in some match-ups. If you go up against an army that has no deepstriking they can be used for screening or board control. Lower damage output is absolutely worth the board control.
Also for assassins, you should always be spending the CP to choose whichever one you want before the game. My two cents anyways.
Given I play in quite a terrain rich environment and a more shooty meta, deep strike charges aren't too much of a worry, plus without shenanigans 9" charges aren't too reliable. Just on Thursday I had a GM in dread knight and a squad of paladins drop in with the reroll charges warlord train, and failed all 4 9" charge attempts. Also I'd rather have the 20 extra wounds and better gun stats for fewer points in my screen. As for the assassins, much as I'd love to, I can't just drop £80 on four models, although I'm sure if I were taking it to a tournament it'd be a good idea.
Vilehydra wrote: If you going super castle I would try two 5 man squads of the infiltrators (the ones that deny deepstrike within 12 inches).Yes they are super expensive, but positioned correctly they could make your castle functionally immune to deepstrike charges which is critical for castles in some match-ups. If you go up against an army that has no deepstriking they can be used for screening or board control. Lower damage output is absolutely worth the board control.
Also for assassins, you should always be spending the CP to choose whichever one you want before the game. My two cents anyways.
Given I play in quite a terrain rich environment and a more shooty meta, deep strike charges aren't too much of a worry, plus without shenanigans 9" charges aren't too reliable. Just on Thursday I had a GM in dread knight and a squad of paladins drop in with the reroll charges warlord train, and failed all 4 9" charge attempts. Also I'd rather have the 20 extra wounds and better gun stats for fewer points in my screen. As for the assassins, much as I'd love to, I can't just drop £80 on four models, although I'm sure if I were taking it to a tournament it'd be a good idea.
Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.
tneva82 wrote: Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.
Plus with all those shenanigans, is that extra 3" really going to change anything for the extra 5 points and minimised damage output vs intercessors?
tneva82 wrote: Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.
Plus with all those shenanigans, is that extra 3" really going to change anything for the extra 5 points and minimised damage output vs intercessors?
A lot actually. The chances of orks deepstriking and making a charge is above 50% (Can't remember the exact chance, but it is more likely than not) with a 9" charge. That goes to a 0% chance because you can only declare charges against units within 12" even if you have 3d6 charge range. Being able to guarantee that these units can't make deepstrike charges is pretty useful, It will allow your intercessors and other castle units to fire more times vs. a deepstrike army. If your local meta doesn't use heavily use deepstrike, then your probably better in not including the infiltrators. Although toss in a phobos librarian with Obfuscation to make them untargetable if your worried about standard turn 2 deepstrikes.
tneva82 wrote: Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.
Plus with all those shenanigans, is that extra 3" really going to change anything for the extra 5 points and minimised damage output vs intercessors?
A lot actually. The chances of orks deepstriking and making a charge is above 50% (Can't remember the exact chance, but it is more likely than not) with a 9" charge. That goes to a 0% chance because you can only declare charges against units within 12" even if you have 3d6 charge range. Being able to guarantee that these units can't make deepstrike charges is pretty useful, It will allow your intercessors and other castle units to fire more times vs. a deepstrike army. If your local meta doesn't use heavily use deepstrike, then your probably better in not including the infiltrators. Although toss in a phobos librarian with Obfuscation to make them untargetable if your worried about standard turn 2 deepstrikes.
Orks can still Da Jump you because they're not being placed as reserves. You'd be safe from Letterbombs though.
tneva82 wrote: Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.
Plus with all those shenanigans, is that extra 3" really going to change anything for the extra 5 points and minimised damage output vs intercessors?
A lot actually. The chances of orks deepstriking and making a charge is above 50% (Can't remember the exact chance, but it is more likely than not) with a 9" charge. That goes to a 0% chance because you can only declare charges against units within 12" even if you have 3d6 charge range. Being able to guarantee that these units can't make deepstrike charges is pretty useful, It will allow your intercessors and other castle units to fire more times vs. a deepstrike army. If your local meta doesn't use heavily use deepstrike, then your probably better in not including the infiltrators. Although toss in a phobos librarian with Obfuscation to make them untargetable if your worried about standard turn 2 deepstrikes.
Orks can still Da Jump you because they're not being placed as reserves. You'd be safe from Letterbombs though.
I'd have to take a re-read on the rules interaction but you may be right there. Still protects your from tellyporta + Ramming Speed on vehicle deepstrikes. And again being able to change a 54% chance of a deepstrike charge w/ re-roll strategem to a 0% is really useful in a lot of match-ups. Fighting against and army that doesn't use deepstrikers? That's okay, use the infiltrators for board control and just plop them on objectives or in a place where they could tie down shooty units. I tend to value versatility in my lists (I think its one thing marines can actually bring to the table that other armies can't) and taking a single tool that can be used in a variety of circumstances lends towards that versatility. Still don't know whether infiltrators will be worth the cost though..
Also would the infiltrators ability prevent GSC 'lying in wait strategem' of deepstriking within 3" of a unit. I'd assume so, and I'd like to avoid getting hit by 20 handflamers.
Interesting thoughts, although I still find the cost prohibitive, now it's confirmed as 22 points. I think if it works as a deepstrike that strategem would be stopped, as the rule says "Enemy units that are set up on the battlefield as reserves cannot be set up within 12" of this unit." So worth taking if you know you're going against GSC.
As for the list I posted, I lost the game against another RG list with three sicaran variants and a leviathan, mortis contemptor and redemptor dread, with a smattering of intercessors and agressors. If I'd gone first I'd have probably won, and I think the list performed well, it sort of made a comeback from turn two to turn 4. The Centurions with the ancient was a deadly combo. Vindicator seems an auto take, he performed great, and the devestators did a lot, especially with the ancient. I'm sure the list will stomp the tau list that's now beaten me twice.
Infiltrators protect from assault via Da Jump. Here's my reasoning.
Firstly the Omni-scramblers stop enemy units being setup as reinforcements within 12". Its important to note the wording. Not arriving from Tactical Reserve, but being setup as reinforcements.
Reinforcements are defined as "units (which) have the ability to be setup on the battlefield mid-turn." by the rulebook.
Da Jump clearly removes a unit from the board and then sets it up again mid-turn.
Da Jump wrote:
If manifested, select a friendly ORK INFANTRY unit within 12" of the psyker. Remove that unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from any enemy units.
Hence, while they are not arriving from Tactical Reserves, they are still counted as Reinforcements. Further evidence is the Auspex Scan strategem
Auspex Scan wrote:
Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within 12" of one of your ADEPTUS ASTARTES Infantry units.
GW confirmed that this applies to units which started on the table and were removed and setup again.
Space Marine FAQ wrote:
Q: Can the Auspex Scan Stratagem be used to shoot an enemy unit that is removed from the battlefield and then set up again, for example, when using a teleport homer?
A: Yes.
Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.
I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.
bort wrote: Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.
I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.
Again it depends on the level of your opponents to an extent aswell, as sometimes it's not geting his points back in shooting directly, but in forcing choices upon your opponents. It alao depends on some of the wording of certain abilities as to how much they can be abused.
bort wrote: Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.
I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.
Again it depends on the level of your opponents to an extent aswell, as sometimes it's not geting his points back in shooting directly, but in forcing choices upon your opponents. It alao depends on some of the wording of certain abilities as to how much they can be abused.
What are you picturing here? One of the main issues I've always had with the banner is trying to think of something good to abuse with it. Hellfire is great, but relies on your opponent bothering to shoot a Dev unit that is (presumably) half bolter bodies. Overcharged plasma or lascannon Devs are also great, but no one vanilla runs Hellblaster castles and las Devs are too expensive. Things like Centurions only get 1 of their multiple guns to shoot...You can also get the odd free close combat swing in with a dying character, which is nice, but not what you're aiming for when taking it.
But if you look at say Nanavati's UM 2.0 list, the thing is pure storm bolters and heavy bolter type stuff and he still has a banner. Unless there's a trick I'm missing, that's not triggering anything good, that's just quantity of shots on death. Which gets me back to debating if I should keep the banner and focus on improving my deployment to keep more in the bubble or my list simply doesn't have enough to make him worthwhile.
bort wrote: Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.
I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.
Again it depends on the level of your opponents to an extent aswell, as sometimes it's not geting his points back in shooting directly, but in forcing choices upon your opponents. It alao depends on some of the wording of certain abilities as to how much they can be abused.
What are you picturing here? One of the main issues I've always had with the banner is trying to think of something good to abuse with it. Hellfire is great, but relies on your opponent bothering to shoot a Dev unit that is (presumably) half bolter bodies. Overcharged plasma or lascannon Devs are also great, but no one vanilla runs Hellblaster castles and las Devs are too expensive. Things like Centurions only get 1 of their multiple guns to shoot...You can also get the odd free close combat swing in with a dying character, which is nice, but not what you're aiming for when taking it.
But if you look at say Nanavati's UM 2.0 list, the thing is pure storm bolters and heavy bolter type stuff and he still has a banner. Unless there's a trick I'm missing, that's not triggering anything good, that's just quantity of shots on death. Which gets me back to debating if I should keep the banner and focus on improving my deployment to keep more in the bubble or my list simply doesn't have enough to make him worthwhile.
That "one weapon" Centurions get to shoot can be a Hurricane Bolter, so I dunno if that's a good argument on your end, especially with the Beta Bolter rules becoming a lot more popular.
Sure, that's definitely the best weapon pick. But, still it's taking an entire additional Centurion for 70pts or the banner for 70. You aren't making that worthwhile for a 4/6 chance of firing the only the hurricane on death from say 1 squad of 3. You either need a lot more bodies or something a lot cooler than I'm missing.
Edit: even granting that stuff is practically guaranteed to die this edition and maybe you think 2 hurricane bolter shots is worth 70pts (I suppose that’s like buying 2 Agressors who only live to shoot once, so maybe...) but the fact the timing of the shots is at the control of your opponent has to drop their value.
bort wrote: Sure, that's definitely the best weapon pick. But, still it's taking an entire additional Centurion for 70pts or the banner for 70. You aren't making that worthwhile for a 4/6 chance of firing the only the hurricane on death from say 1 squad of 3. You either need a lot more bodies or something a lot cooler than I'm missing.
Edit: even granting that stuff is practically guaranteed to die this edition and maybe you think 2 hurricane bolter shots is worth 70pts (I suppose that’s like buying 2 Agressors who only live to shoot once, so maybe...) but the fact the timing of the shots is at the control of your opponent has to drop their value.
Everything in the codex is priced like it gets these abilities. The relic banner is one of the few good choices in the codex and I would encourage anyone running 20+ Infantry models near each other to make use of the Ancient.
I'm in a semi-competative spring league. Doing well so far winning my first two games. Any suggestions on improvements? i'm having a hard time considering taking out anything.
The league has mostly chaos soup, eldar soup, orks. The orks lists look more mechanized than more meta lists.
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
Ultramarines
+ HQ [13 PL, 229pts] +
Captain on Bike [6 PL, 114pts]: Combi-melta [15pts], Power fist [9pts], The Sanctic Halo, Twin boltgun [2pts]
bort wrote: Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.
I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.
I have a little under 500 points inside of my ancient bubble (2 dev squads, and 5 hellblasters) sometimes more when my intercessors are nearby. I feel like it gives me huge returns. Even just firing the normal bolters from the extra guys in the dev squad feels good. Do not forget, the relic banner also makes you fearless which can save you some models as well.
Wow. Somehow I'd missed that the banner makes you fearless. That's a huge deal for me. 10-man Primaris squads are quite risky otherwise. I'm thinking of running hellblasters in 10-man squads to take advantage of the Crimson Fist liberators detachment but was worried about them running away. This could actually work.
Xenomancers wrote: Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.
Having tried out the veteran intercessors at the GT finals I'm somewhat less sold on them. I didn't fight much cc so the attack was pretty irrelevant. I did use rapid fire a couple of times in a game against a plaguebearer horde but it didn't result in that many extra dead PBs. I worked out that I'd spent about 5 CPs (on the detachment, 2 vet squads and rapid fire twice) to kill roughly 9 extra plaguebearers.
If anything it cost me a squad because I charged some PBs to try and kill them off, which was dumb! Did win the game though
bort wrote: The relic banner makes you fearless, but the basic banner is +1 Ld. That might make a difference too with more Ld check powers in the game.
I think the relic does that too. It gives +1 to your rolls to fire when killed, frightens enemies and makes you fearless, but it doesn't remove the original +1 LD effect.
If it's a replacement for the original banner then it wouldn't wouldn't work, because there'd be no roll to add +1 to unless another ancient was there. I think...
Oh, good to know it’s played that way. The wording was really vague on it. Other items are a replacement, but yeah the relic banner refers to needing the base banner effect...
Xenomancers wrote: Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.
Having tried out the veteran intercessors at the GT finals I'm somewhat less sold on them. I didn't fight much cc so the attack was pretty irrelevant. I did use rapid fire a couple of times in a game against a plaguebearer horde but it didn't result in that many extra dead PBs. I worked out that I'd spent about 5 CPs (on the detachment, 2 vet squads and rapid fire twice) to kill roughly 9 extra plaguebearers.
If anything it cost me a squad because I charged some PBs to try and kill them off, which was dumb! Did win the game though
You are basically paying out the wazzo for the ability to use stratagems BUT the attacks do come in handy more often than not. ESP if you have the unit buffed with reroll hits and 1's or all to wound. Very helpful vs orks - very helpful vs harliquens - really any army that wants to assault you is going to take some pain for 31 str 4 attacks espn if you hit them with 40 ap-1 boltguns before you charge them. The way I see it - you don't have any useful stratagems anyways. You will mostly be using them for CP rerolls or fighting again with heros. Essentially - you are paying the CP for the firepower of another intercessor squad for the rest of the game probably. Plus not that we have access to eliminators - it's even worth taking 1 squad of boltgun snipers. I play ultramarines though so I almost always have Guilliman. Interessors are a LOT better with him.
A list I've been fooling around with is Gman - 40 intercessors chronos in a LLC with 5 HB cents with Huribolters + tiggy Then I have like 70 points to play with. Can drop a few intercessors and a cent to get some plasma interceptors or spam eliminators....It's a tough call.
bort wrote: The relic banner makes you fearless, but the basic banner is +1 Ld. That might make a difference too with more Ld check powers in the game.
I think the relic does that too. It gives +1 to your rolls to fire when killed, frightens enemies and makes you fearless, but it doesn't remove the original +1 LD effect.
If it's a replacement for the original banner then it wouldn't wouldn't work, because there'd be no roll to add +1 to unless another ancient was there. I think...
Yes it's kind of insane my Ultramarine Vets under the banner are leadership 11.
Xenomancers wrote: typo its a LRC. Mostly because it's the cheapest HQ - It also helps that the LR is always hitting on 2's. Even at 1 wound.
Not sure how much Chronos helps offset the already high cost for the Land Raider, especially when all someone has to do is touch it and suddenly your 200+ point unit can't do anything.
Unless Chronos has the same fallback and shoot ability and confers it on the tank and I missed it.
Eihnlazer wrote: he doesn't, but its true not many things are gonna do a lot of damage to a LR in close combat, and its very hard to wrap it up since its large.
Say it is assaulted by 20 termagants, the gants failed to scratch the tank, the tank striked back killed 1, and fall back, can only move 10" But cannot do anything else. Now the tank, due to Its huge size and the broad coverage of the horde gants, maybe only 2" away from the gants, If the SM do not have other means to destroy this brood (which would usually be the case since their horde killing power would be needed to exterminate the other more dangerous thing like Genestealers hordes), they will charge again so the tank is tied up for another turn. Repeat and rinse.
So, once a Space Marine tank is charged. I count ot as being silenced for the rest of the WHOLE GAME.
Xenomancers wrote: typo its a LRC. Mostly because it's the cheapest HQ - It also helps that the LR is always hitting on 2's. Even at 1 wound.
Not sure how much Chronos helps offset the already high cost for the Land Raider, especially when all someone has to do is touch it and suddenly your 200+ point unit can't do anything.
Unless Chronos has the same fallback and shoot ability and confers it on the tank and I missed it.
Unfortunately he doesn't give the tank the ability to fallback and shoot - he does make it always BS 2+. So all 16 wounds must be dealt with and he gives it a few wound every turn too. Like I said - I mainly take him in that list because he is the cheapest HQ and Cents basically require the land raider to be played. Tiggy helps the LR live through turn 1 with -1 to hit and +1 T. The cents get an addition 3" of movement when they disembark. So they go up to 31" threat range with ignore cover hurricane bolters. The damage that unit puts out buffed by Gman is pretty astounding.
Also - it's pretty silly that Space Marine chapter tactics do not apply to their vehicles. I really expect that sooner than later.
Eihnlazer wrote: he doesn't, but its true not many things are gonna do a lot of damage to a LR in close combat, and its very hard to wrap it up since its large.
Say it is assaulted by 20 termagants, the gants failed to scratch the tank, the tank striked back killed 1, and fall back, can only move 10" But cannot do anything else. Now the tank, due to Its huge size and the broad coverage of the horde gants, maybe only 2" away from the gants, If the SM do not have other means to destroy this brood (which would usually be the case since their horde killing power would be needed to exterminate the other more dangerous thing like Genestealers hordes), they will charge again so the tank is tied up for another turn. Repeat and rinse.
So, once a Space Marine tank is charged. I count ot as being silenced for the rest of the WHOLE GAME.
In theory yes BUT 20 gaunts is easy as heck to silence. It is well within reason that a single intercessor unit buffed by gman can kill it solo to the man. The first game I played it an ork palyed used da jump and tagged it from behind - the orks got waxed by gman+ intercessors (+ auspex scan) and since I couldn't shoot with the LR anyways I moved it up to block the path of another 30 man ork unit. Yeah they can charge the LR now BUT they have to take gman buffed overwatch which averages like 8 dead orks and those boys can get through the massive LR nor can they really hurt it.
Keep in mind I am just trying to do the best with what I got in order to bring HB cents. I suppose I could just bring another units of cents for the cost of the LR but then I'd be too 1 dimensional I think. Plus I don't have that many cents lol.
That said, the issue of a 300 point unit not being able to shoot potentially is super risky don't you think? That's the main reason Land Raiders aren't being ran. Durability is eh, shooting total is okay-ish, might make it to deliver the goods.
However all you need is a single model to have made the charge and now it's out of action for a turn. The Centurions would have the added benefit of getting the Ultramarine bonus. If you have two squads though you have to run an Apothecary, no excuses.
Xenomancers wrote: Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.
Having tried out the veteran intercessors at the GT finals I'm somewhat less sold on them. I didn't fight much cc so the attack was pretty irrelevant. I did use rapid fire a couple of times in a game against a plaguebearer horde but it didn't result in that many extra dead PBs. I worked out that I'd spent about 5 CPs (on the detachment, 2 vet squads and rapid fire twice) to kill roughly 9 extra plaguebearers.
If anything it cost me a squad because I charged some PBs to try and kill them off, which was dumb! Did win the game though
You are basically paying out the wazzo for the ability to use stratagems BUT the attacks do come in handy more often than not. ESP if you have the unit buffed with reroll hits and 1's or all to wound. Very helpful vs orks - very helpful vs harliquens - really any army that wants to assault you is going to take some pain for 31 str 4 attacks espn if you hit them with 40 ap-1 boltguns before you charge them. The way I see it - you don't have any useful stratagems anyways. You will mostly be using them for CP rerolls or fighting again with heros. Essentially - you are paying the CP for the firepower of another intercessor squad for the rest of the game probably. Plus not that we have access to eliminators - it's even worth taking 1 squad of boltgun snipers. I play ultramarines though so I almost always have Guilliman. Interessors are a LOT better with him.
A list I've been fooling around with is Gman - 40 intercessors chronos in a LLC with 5 HB cents with Huribolters + tiggy Then I have like 70 points to play with. Can drop a few intercessors and a cent to get some plasma interceptors or spam eliminators....It's a tough call.
That army has no anti tank, so unfortunately gets eaten alive by knights and IG... and to be honest a lot of armies. It tables hordes pretty quickly though! Overall a more balanced approach is likely to work better. Stick Chronos in a Predator with a couple more of them and proc killshot. With the amount of troops you have you ought to be able to screen the predators. Or just do something completely different.
I don’t agree that the attack for veteran intercessors is useful “more often than not”. I didn’t find my intercessors in combat with things where that attack made any difference all that often. Quite a lot of the time they’re functioning as a screen, and some of the rest of the time they’re fighting things like IG where they don’t need the attack.
However, I do think it’s good to be able to become a veteran intercessor Detachment if playing against hordes. You’d kill quite a lot of orks, for example. So if you’re going to an event where you can decide to do it or not before each game, it’s a decent option to have. But I don’t think it’s something I’d put on my army list.
As a crimson fist player I now think I’d be more likely to go for a liberators detachment. That only costs one CP to set up because you don’t have to pay anything for each squad. Firing at people with a 10-man hellblaster squad (or whoever’s alive after the enemy shoots) could make a real impact.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That said, the issue of a 300 point unit not being able to shoot potentially is super risky don't you think? That's the main reason Land Raiders aren't being ran. Durability is eh, shooting total is okay-ish, might make it to deliver the goods.
However all you need is a single model to have made the charge and now it's out of action for a turn. The Centurions would have the added benefit of getting the Ultramarine bonus. If you have two squads though you have to run an Apothecary, no excuses.
Sometimes I do the apoth. Mathwise though I think another Cent makes more sense.
Xenomancers wrote: Ancient banner and 3x10 man intercessor vet squads are core in all my lists. Never leave home without it.
Having tried out the veteran intercessors at the GT finals I'm somewhat less sold on them. I didn't fight much cc so the attack was pretty irrelevant. I did use rapid fire a couple of times in a game against a plaguebearer horde but it didn't result in that many extra dead PBs. I worked out that I'd spent about 5 CPs (on the detachment, 2 vet squads and rapid fire twice) to kill roughly 9 extra plaguebearers.
If anything it cost me a squad because I charged some PBs to try and kill them off, which was dumb! Did win the game though
You are basically paying out the wazzo for the ability to use stratagems BUT the attacks do come in handy more often than not. ESP if you have the unit buffed with reroll hits and 1's or all to wound. Very helpful vs orks - very helpful vs harliquens - really any army that wants to assault you is going to take some pain for 31 str 4 attacks espn if you hit them with 40 ap-1 boltguns before you charge them. The way I see it - you don't have any useful stratagems anyways. You will mostly be using them for CP rerolls or fighting again with heros. Essentially - you are paying the CP for the firepower of another intercessor squad for the rest of the game probably. Plus not that we have access to eliminators - it's even worth taking 1 squad of boltgun snipers. I play ultramarines though so I almost always have Guilliman. Interessors are a LOT better with him.
A list I've been fooling around with is Gman - 40 intercessors chronos in a LLC with 5 HB cents with Huribolters + tiggy Then I have like 70 points to play with. Can drop a few intercessors and a cent to get some plasma interceptors or spam eliminators....It's a tough call.
That army has no anti tank, so unfortunately gets eaten alive by knights and IG... and to be honest a lot of armies. It tables hordes pretty quickly though! Overall a more balanced approach is likely to work better. Stick Chronos in a Predator with a couple more of them and proc killshot. With the amount of troops you have you ought to be able to screen the predators. Or just do something completely different.
I don’t agree that the attack for veteran intercessors is useful “more often than not”. I didn’t find my intercessors in combat with things where that attack made any difference all that often. Quite a lot of the time they’re functioning as a screen, and some of the rest of the time they’re fighting things like IG where they don’t need the attack.
However, I do think it’s good to be able to become a veteran intercessor Detachment if playing against hordes. You’d kill quite a lot of orks, for example. So if you’re going to an event where you can decide to do it or not before each game, it’s a decent option to have. But I don’t think it’s something I’d put on my army list.
As a crimson fist player I now think I’d be more likely to go for a liberators detachment. That only costs one CP to set up because you don’t have to pay anything for each squad. Firing at people with a 10-man hellblaster squad (or whoever’s alive after the enemy shoots) could make a real impact.
Yeah - That is true. Lighter tanks can be dealt with just fine though.
This weekend I did a similar list and played against a powerful GSC army.
I ran 39 vet intercessors
10 man infiltrator squad (Combat squaded)
5 man infiltrator squad
Tiggy
a Phobos libby
Primaris ancient
Relic Levi with 2x storm cannons
Gman
In all honesty - this is the most powerful army I've played with marines. It was for ETC practice though so it is intended this list faces an anti horde army. Infiltrators are a little expensive but overall their ability to stop your army from being charged by silly things is worth their weight in gold.
Interesting point. In an ETC format you can build an excellent anti-horde army with marines. It's not necessarily a good TAC list, but definitely one that does its job well.
FWIW in that format I'd leave out 85 points for an assassin - probably a Vindicare or Callidus - to remove support characters. Or just get some eliminators.
I have a chance to make some last minute alteration to my list to counter a Ynnari player. What are some space marine units that counter their go to's?
Went 2nd place in a tourney last Saturday with the following:
Primarus Librarian w/ Phobos w/ Tomb of Malacor
Primarus Lieutenant w/ Power Sword
10xVet Intercessors
5xInfiltrators
5xInfiltrators
1xPrimarus ancient w/ Big Banner
3xSuppressors
3xSuppressors
5xHellblasters
5xHellblasters
3xEliminators
Guiliman
Culexus
Vindicare
Eversor
85 point side board
The 2 games I won were due to me putting up nullzone on the librarian and corridoring it next to a knight. Blew up the knight each time turn 1. That tactic was total magic. Suppressors and eliminators were very lackluster and I would totally replace every squad with a pred or repulsor next time. Infiltrators were awesome in that they had 2 roles depending on the matchup. Either to forward deploy onto objectives or protect the castle from deepstrike. Their mere presence caused the spacewolf player to not infiltrate his wolfen and caused a daemon player to put less stuff in deep strike than usual.
That does seem strong. It actually makes me consider running a conclave. With two disciplines to choose from you can potentially throw quite a lot of mortal wounds around, so gets necer not be busy.
For extra mortal wounds, it wouldn't be a bad idea to remove 1 Assassin for a Devatsator squad w/ a Cherub and Heavy Bolter. Assassins would give more though.
Azuza001 wrote: That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...
I get the impression that this is a classic GW oversight and an unintended consequence of the wording of the relic and the relic to be FAQ'd to prevent this in future.
Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?
That's about the same as us requesting they gain AP-1 or something with their blades.
No wolves on Fenris wrote:Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?
Yeah reivers are straight up useless right now. Now they're more expensive than intercessors even without Grav-chutes, which just seems like an oversight to me.
Ice_can wrote:
Azuza001 wrote: That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...
I get the impression that this is a classic GW oversight and an unintended consequence of the wording of the relic and the relic to be FAQ'd to prevent this in future.
I doubt it. Unless i'm getting this wrong, it doesn't seem that strong to me. You can use the new spell to sprint the librarian up the field and lay down his Null zone right on top of your opponent's deployment zone. Problem, you have to cast a warp charge 6 spell followed by a wc 8 spell. If you fail the nullzone cast, you've thrown your librarian away for free. Then, you could have just put your Knight or whatever behind some guardsmen to prevent all of it.
I doubt it. Unless i'm getting this wrong, it doesn't seem that strong to me. You can use the new spell to sprint the librarian up the field and lay down his Null zone right on top of your opponent's deployment zone. Problem, you have to cast a warp charge 6 spell followed by a wc 8 spell. If you fail the nullzone cast, you've thrown your librarian away for free. Then, you could have just put your Knight or whatever behind some guardsmen to prevent all of it.
You can cast nullzone first and see if it goes off.
That part is better than just using a jump pack to put the librarian up in range. But you’ve presumably also dropped in all the hellblasters into rapid fire range before finding out if the null zone goes off or not.
bort wrote: That part is better than just using a jump pack to put the librarian up in range. But you’ve presumably also dropped in all the hellblasters into rapid fire range before finding out if the null zone goes off or not.
They would have to be in LoS, but just the 10 with 6 supressors with guiliman rerolls finished off the knight out of rapid fire range each time.
Why hellblasters? I would do this trick with a squad of devs with las cannons and a cherub. If null zone doesnt go off use the coridor to get back / protect yourself. If it does let the las cannons rain down upon the target.
Is it the end all / be all of tricks? No. But the fact that we can do it makes it a useful thing to know and pull out if the situation calls for it.
Azuza001 wrote: Why hellblasters? I would do this trick with a squad of devs with las cannons and a cherub. If null zone doesnt go off use the coridor to get back / protect yourself. If it does let the las cannons rain down upon the target.
Is it the end all / be all of tricks? No. But the fact that we can do it makes it a useful thing to know and pull out if the situation calls for it.
Hellblasters are more versatile then lascannon devs. Flat 2 damage and 2 shots can be leveraged against many more targets than a couple of lascannons. Also Hellblasters are -4 (for some god forsaken reason), which is important vs 3+ armor, or the 2+ armor relic that knights have.
No wolves on Fenris wrote:Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?
Yeah reivers are straight up useless right now. Now they're more expensive than intercessors even without Grav-chutes, which just seems like an oversight to me.
Ice_can wrote:
Azuza001 wrote: That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...
I get the impression that this is a classic GW oversight and an unintended consequence of the wording of the relic and the relic to be FAQ'd to prevent this in future.
I doubt it. Unless i'm getting this wrong, it doesn't seem that strong to me. You can use the new spell to sprint the librarian up the field and lay down his Null zone right on top of your opponent's deployment zone. Problem, you have to cast a warp charge 6 spell followed by a wc 8 spell. If you fail the nullzone cast, you've thrown your librarian away for free. Then, you could have just put your Knight or whatever behind some guardsmen to prevent all of it.
The temperal corridor is only legal on phobos units, the librarian in phobos doesn't have access to the normal psychic powers.
It's only the specific wording of the tomb that gives them access to both sets of powers.
Again to me that says the design intention is you can be using obfuscation and codex psychic powers together, just a shame as usual GW didn't actually check the codex they are futsing with for rules they forgot. Like is it really that difficult to read the codex of the faction that your creating units for?
Azuza001 wrote: Why hellblasters? I would do this trick with a squad of devs with las cannons and a cherub. If null zone doesnt go off use the coridor to get back / protect yourself. If it does let the las cannons rain down upon the target.
Is it the end all / be all of tricks? No. But the fact that we can do it makes it a useful thing to know and pull out if the situation calls for it.
Hellblasters are more versatile then lascannon devs. Flat 2 damage and 2 shots can be leveraged against many more targets than a couple of lascannons. Also Hellblasters are -4 (for some god forsaken reason), which is important vs 3+ armor, or the 2+ armor relic that knights have.
Honestly, I think urzaplanewalker success maybe a lucky one. The luck is in 2 folds, one, He get both of his needed power off, given the WC are not low, getting both off is not easy. 2nd, I bet He might have go first in that game, because had He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.
I think the trick is good enough to justify putting him in a list. After all you don't have to buy him the relic. You can just spend the CP if you come up against knights or plaguebearers.
It may well get FAQd, but I'm not sure it will. I'm dimly aware of a similar ability with Chaos (not sure which faction) that I think you can still do.
Neophyte2012 wrote: He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.
Neophyte2012 wrote: He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.
Can't wipe what you can't see.
For the mobility of the IK, which moves 16 to 18 inches a turn and still able to shoot / charge normally, I don't think you can hide.
Neophyte2012 wrote: He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.
Can't wipe what you can't see.
For the mobility of the IK, which moves 16 to 18 inches a turn and still able to shoot / charge normally, I don't think you can hide.
It's not hiding or movement that's relevant it's using the deployment shenanigans and abusing the charictor targeting rules (they need fixed but that's on GW) makes you very tricky to kill.
This takes a high risk high reward play into more low risk high reward play.
No wolves on Fenris wrote:Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?
Yeah reivers are straight up useless right now. Now they're more expensive than intercessors even without Grav-chutes, which just seems like an oversight to me.
Ice_can wrote:
Azuza001 wrote: That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...
I get the impression that this is a classic GW oversight and an unintended consequence of the wording of the relic and the relic to be FAQ'd to prevent this in future.
I doubt it. Unless i'm getting this wrong, it doesn't seem that strong to me. You can use the new spell to sprint the librarian up the field and lay down his Null zone right on top of your opponent's deployment zone. Problem, you have to cast a warp charge 6 spell followed by a wc 8 spell. If you fail the nullzone cast, you've thrown your librarian away for free. Then, you could have just put your Knight or whatever behind some guardsmen to prevent all of it.
The temperal corridor is only legal on phobos units, the librarian in phobos doesn't have access to the normal psychic powers.
It's only the specific wording of the tomb that gives them access to both sets of powers.
Again to me that says the design intention is you can be using obfuscation and codex psychic powers together, just a shame as usual GW didn't actually check the codex they are futsing with for rules they forgot. Like is it really that difficult to read the codex of the faction that your creating units for?
It's the Tome of Malcador. Tome. Like a book. Not a Tombstone, like a grave.
And yes, it is a SM relic. It grants an additional Librarius power. Which means a Phobos Librarian can get access to a Librarius power, such as Null Zone, that they wouldn't otherwise have.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It's the Tome of Malcador. Tome. Like a book. Not a Tombstone, like a grave.
And yes, it is a SM relic. It grants an additional Librarius power. Which means a Phobos Librarian can get access to a Librarius power, such as Null Zone, that they wouldn't otherwise have.
Primarus Librarian w/ Phobos w/ Tomb of Malacor
Primarus Lieutenant w/ Power Sword
10xVet Intercessors
5xInfiltrators
5xInfiltrators
1xPrimarus ancient w/ Big Banner
3xSuppressors
3xSuppressors
5xHellblasters
5xHellblasters
3xEliminators
Guiliman
Culexus
Vindicare
Eversor
85 point side board
The 2 games I won were due to me putting up nullzone on the librarian and corridoring it next to a knight. Blew up the knight each time turn 1. That tactic was total magic. Suppressors and eliminators were very lackluster and I would totally replace every squad with a pred or repulsor next time. Infiltrators were awesome in that they had 2 roles depending on the matchup. Either to forward deploy onto objectives or protect the castle from deepstrike. Their mere presence caused the spacewolf player to not infiltrate his wolfen and caused a daemon player to put less stuff in deep strike than usual.
Temporal corridor forces you to Advance and you cannot charge after you do so. How exately did you blew up the knight with the librarian? What am I missing?
Neophyte2012 wrote: He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.
Can't wipe what you can't see.
For the mobility of the IK, which moves 16 to 18 inches a turn and still able to shoot / charge normally, I don't think you can hide.
It's not hiding or movement that's relevant it's using the deployment shenanigans and abusing the charictor targeting rules (they need fixed but that's on GW) makes you very tricky to kill.
This takes a high risk high reward play into more low risk high reward play.
It is not the Character that is in risk, it is your Big gun carrying guys. They have no "Character" keyword protection!!! So the Castellan, Crusader and Gallant work together can easily destroy the majority of Space Marine big guns in a single turn.
Thankfully, the tourney had what I concider to be a bare minimum amount of terrain, so hiding 16 space marines wasn't difficult. I actually went 2nd in both games (by choice in one and not in the other) and typically the knight had very little or anything to shoot at. The infiltrators were in the corners in ruins and I could easily fit 30 bodies behind a couple of buildings.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why hellblasters? I would do this trick with a squad of devs with las cannons and a cherub. If null zone doesnt go off use the coridor to get back / protect yourself. If it does let the las cannons rain down upon the target.
I need units that can move with my castle (guiliman is not worth 400 points if you don't get him into melee at some point). Space marines are also not points efficient if they only shoot and not charge into targets and do a little extra damage and shut down shooting. Hellblasters still have 11 attacks at strength 4 in a 5 man unit and do quite a lot of work in melee. They also have double the durability against small arms fire.
I feel like there are no old marines worth taking that are not predators or scouts atm (and scouts are being overtaken by infiltrators in my eyes), due to low wounds and attacks.
So I have had some decent success playing my marines as a gunline around a chapter master and lieutenant bubble. The problem I run in to is board control. I end up hemmed in my deployment zone for a good chunk of the game, as spreading out would sacrifice a lot of my shooting efficiency. We mostly play with progressive scoring, so by the time I've cleared out all the major threats, I'm down quite a few victory points. What do you guys do to claim far flung objectives mid game, while still being able to have decent damage output?
3 units of suppressors should help out gunline marines a lot. 24 str 7 -2AP 2dmg shots with rerolls should do a decent amount of damage. They have good range, and good speed for later on.
With the new phobos warlord trait giving you +1 to hit againgst a target and the new libriarian giving another unit +1 to hit with a power you should be able to dish out a decent amount of damage.
Eihnlazer wrote: 3 units of suppressors should help out gunline marines a lot. 24 str 7 -2AP 2dmg shots with rerolls should do a decent amount of damage. They have good range, and good speed for later on.
With the new phobos warlord trait giving you +1 to hit againgst a target and the new libriarian giving another unit +1 to hit with a power you should be able to dish out a decent amount of damage.
Space Marine phobos libby don't have the psychic power giving +1 to hit....... There is one giving reroll failed hit though, which is cancelled by moving penalty of heavy weapon.
Just had a thought about the Imperial fists siegebreaker cohort...take a vanguard detachment of redemptor dreads with twin Gatling and twin storm bolters or a unit of centurions with all the dakka and use the strat to cause mortal wounds on vehicles..nasty
Eihnlazer wrote: 3 units of suppressors should help out gunline marines a lot. 24 str 7 -2AP 2dmg shots with rerolls should do a decent amount of damage. They have good range, and good speed for later on.
With the new phobos warlord trait giving you +1 to hit againgst a target and the new libriarian giving another unit +1 to hit with a power you should be able to dish out a decent amount of damage.
Space Marine phobos libby don't have the psychic power giving +1 to hit....... There is one giving reroll failed hit though, which is cancelled by moving penalty of heavy weapon.
Can Shadowspear characters use relics from the main codex? Armor Indomitus with CamoCloaks could make characters pretty difficult to remove, especially if your infiltrating those characters.
Yes pretty much any marine character can take them. FW had to put in an FAQ to stop you taking the armour on a chaplain dreadnought!
The phobos character +1 to hit ability is a warlord trait, not a psychic power. Unlike the sneaky librarian's psychic powers, which often only work on phobos units, there are no restrictions on what unit you can buff. You're allowed to give a unit of 10 hellblasters +1 to hit to overcharge safely, or some dakka centurions +1 to trigger tons of extra shots with bolter drill.
Hey all, just wanted to post a 2000 point list I've been trying out lately and see if I could get some constructive criticism. I prefer the look of primaris marines and use them exclusively for infantry, with the exception of scouts, whose scale doesn't bother me as much next to primaris. I'm trying to build a list that has some power (doesn't need to be ultra competitive, just serviceable in an average casual meta), but while still looking like an aesthetically pleasing combined arms marine force. I don't face knights at all, so that's not part of the equation. We play book missions with progressive scoring or maelstrom mostly and maps with lots of cover and LOS blocking terrain.
Raven Guard Battalion
HQ
Primaris Captain with powerfist and plasma pistol (chapter master for rerolls)
Redemptor dread with gatling cannons and storm bolters
Relic Sicaran venator tank destroyer with hunter killer missile
Reivers x5 with grav chutes and carbines
Fast Attack
Bikers x3 with storm bolter sgt
Plasma Inceptors x3
Heavy Support
Mortis contemptor with double twin lascannons
Relic leviathan dread with two storm cannon arrays
Flyer
Xiphon Interceptor
comes out to 2000 points exactly.
I form a fire base around the characters, and keep the inceptors and reivers in reserve. There is a bit of resiliency since everything except the sicaran has a minus one to hit at range. If the opposing army is a melee hoard, the fire base remains stationary in early turns and thins them out as they advance towards it with the scout squads screening in front of it. If its a shooty opponent, the fire base moves towards an objective (most of the shooting platforms either ignore movement modifiers or have native 2+ to hit, lowering the loss of firepower for moving). In the case of a shooty opponent the scouts don't need to screen and forward deploy on an out of the way objective. The xiphon can operate independently to attack heavy targets. The bike squad deploys behind the fire base to pop out later to either bolster the firing line or turbo boost on to an objective. The plasma inceptors deepstrike turn two or three to finish off a hard target the lascannons have softened up. The reivers wait till turn three when theres less fire power on the board to deepstrike on to an objective.
New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.
Insectum7 wrote: New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.
Well, I guess you can still use it twice, you just have to pay twice?
Insectum7 wrote: New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.
Well, I guess you can still use it twice, you just have to pay twice?
Yeah, but that's also limited to non-matched play as you can't use a stratagem twice in the same phase.
Insectum7 wrote: New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.
Well, I guess you can still use it twice, you just have to pay twice?
Yeah, but that's also limited to non-matched play as you can't use a stratagem twice in the same phase.
Ah, okay. I was wondering about their wording. First it says to go ahead and use it again if you want, then it said subject to regular restrictions, but regular restrictions don't allow reuse. I forgot nonmatched does allow repeated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Part of me is glad, cause I hated those cherub models and that double shot was the primary reason I kept feeling obligated to keep Devs in my list. But then, on the other hand, I also own a ton of heavy weapon models from prior editions and this is yet another nail in their coffin.
Insectum7 wrote: New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.
Well, I guess you can still use it twice, you just have to pay twice?
Yeah, but that's also limited to non-matched play as you can't use a stratagem twice in the same phase.
Ah, okay. I was wondering about their wording. First it says to go ahead and use it again if you want, then it said subject to regular restrictions, but regular restrictions don't allow reuse. I forgot nonmatched does allow repeated.
Yeah I had to think about the answer for a bit before it made sense to me.
bort wrote: Part of me is glad, cause I hated those cherub models and that double shot was the primary reason I kept feeling obligated to keep Devs in my list. But then, on the other hand, I also own a ton of heavy weapon models from prior editions and this is yet another nail in their coffin.
I think the Cherub is still a great buy (I also hate the model, and I double-hate that it counts as a model for purposes of Transport and Combat Squads). As for Heavy Weapons in general, I still pack my army full of 'em, generally. And now a Knight will have 75% the durability, and Disintegrators 75% the potential wounding, so some of the longer range engagements get a bit easier with that.
I'm also rather surprised they changed it. An extra d3 mortals for 5 points sounds great, but it's also in a subpar army and only usable once per game. If this was their first FAQ on it, I could see it, but given they'd already ruled it the reverse, the change seems weird. Oh well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now that Devs are nerfed a bit and the Castellan went up 100pts, think it's worth returning to using Dread variants for heavy weapons? I'm assuming the cheaper Knight (Crusader?) will still be running around everywhere, but Venerables do fit under the 10W threshold...
bort wrote: I'm also rather surprised they changed it. An extra d3 mortals for 5 points sounds great, but it's also in a subpar army and only usable once per game. If this was their first FAQ on it, I could see it, but given they'd already ruled it the reverse, the change seems weird. Oh well.
It was nice to have but it sure felt sloppy. When people are taking Devastators without any plan other than a single heavy weapon firing twice once a game with a stratagem, I think there's a false positive in terms of balancing. Maybe better to clean it up and then see where things settle before adjusting further.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bort wrote: Now that Devs are nerfed a bit and the Castellan went up 100pts, think it's worth returning to using Dread variants for heavy weapons? I'm assuming the cheaper Knight (Crusader?) will still be running around everywhere, but Venerables do fit under the 10W threshold...
Well they aren't Characters, so being below 10W shouldn't make a difference.
That said I do think there's more room for Dreadnoughts since their price drop, and they are the SM vehicles which retain chapter tactics. I filled out my collection recently so I can run three of them. A Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher Dread is only 96 points.
bort wrote: Now that Devs are nerfed a bit and the Castellan went up 100pts, think it's worth returning to using Dread variants for heavy weapons? I'm assuming the cheaper Knight (Crusader?) will still be running around everywhere, but Venerables do fit under the 10W threshold...
Well they aren't Characters, so being below 10W shouldn't make a difference.
That said I do think there's more room for Dreadnoughts since their price drop, and they are the SM vehicles which retain chapter tactics. I filled out my collection recently so I can run three of them. A Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher Dread is only 96 points.
Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong power, but I thought that Krast thing gave +1 damage vs 10+W targets and another +1 vs Titanic? So at least it's not getting a free bonus firing at nonFW dreads.
bort wrote: Now that Devs are nerfed a bit and the Castellan went up 100pts, think it's worth returning to using Dread variants for heavy weapons? I'm assuming the cheaper Knight (Crusader?) will still be running around everywhere, but Venerables do fit under the 10W threshold...
Well they aren't Characters, so being below 10W shouldn't make a difference.
That said I do think there's more room for Dreadnoughts since their price drop, and they are the SM vehicles which retain chapter tactics. I filled out my collection recently so I can run three of them. A Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher Dread is only 96 points.
Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong power, but I thought that Krast thing gave +1 damage vs 10+W targets and another +1 vs Titanic? So at least it's not getting a free bonus firing at nonFW dreads.
Your refering to headsmans mark and really it's not even a thing vrs dreadnaughts, heck even mildly above avarage rolls should see a thermal cannon wipe a dreadnaught per turn.
Non FW dreadnaughts are still rather meh
^Possibly meh, but the popular FW ones seem too much like easily killed keystone units, while standard Dreds can act as less obvious support units. They wind up lasting longer because they're less obvious targets, and you can tuck them away a bit easier.
Well Gman and Calgar both generate bonus CP when they are your warlord so...I don't even consider other warlord traits. The new +1 to hit warlord trait seems next best to me. Also I wouldn't call it dysfunctional. It really should generate 2-3 CP per game. So when combined with the bonus CP. I find Ultramarines generate about 50% more CP compared to other marine brothers.
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Insectum7 wrote: ^Possibly meh, but the popular FW ones seem too much like easily killed keystone units, while standard Dreds can act as less obvious support units. They wind up lasting longer because they're less obvious targets, and you can tuck them away a bit easier.
Really Dreads of all kinds are nice.
Vendreads with ML and las are at a great price point. When you add 20 points to them to get another LC they start to get too glassy.
I’m always sad with the ML though. Why couldn’t it be a twinML? It feels kinda like wasting a weapon slot on a chassis you already paid for, but you’re right, you add anything more expensive (not that there is many options) and it feels like a point sink.
Gman feels a lot of points, still feels like your stuck leaning into the unltimate castle to make a Gman build.
Calgar has some play but when most of your firepower hits on 2+ all he brings is being a beat stick with no mobility.
Yeah the 1CP per battle round and no pregame makes the regenerate CP trait rather trash. Not to mention marine strategums just meh.
I'm trying to see if anyone else has had luck with something else.
bort wrote: I’m always sad with the ML though. Why couldn’t it be a twinML? It feels kinda like wasting a weapon slot on a chassis you already paid for, but you’re right, you add anything more expensive (not that there is many options) and it feels like a point sink.
I think technically the autocannon is better. However - I'm taking these to kill big stuff - the autocannons don't really add to much to my threat potential because I take so many bolters.
Also in regards to gman. He really only benefits in stuff that typically wounds of 5+ or worse to be worth it. If you are talking about LC and ML. CM LT combo will work better because it will get you a lot more guns which will do higher damage.
Yeah, the autocannon is slightly better per point vs most targets. But cause I figure my dreads are the first thing shot by any AT anyways they’re also the first things I cut down to a regular ML if I need to shave points.
Looking over the heavy options to possibly replace Devs with, I again wonder about tanks. (I know, most is just me wishing I could use all the Rhino chassis I own, but...maybe?)
They're all overpriced for their weapons and I know not taken by the top, but the Rhino box is a pretty good LOS blocker and have a decent track record as speed bump and chump charger.
But to my new thought, okay, if a Rhino is decent, wouldn't a Hunter be even better? For only 8 more points, now your mobile LOS blocker is T8 and carries a reroll to hit lascannon. Moving 10" instead of 12" is pretty much the sole downside. Not like you were ever gonna load that Rhino with Tacticals or anything either.
Just sticking with the Devs is easiest, but I feel like (in a list with other armor to take AT fire too) a Hunter or maybe Stalker could be a good brigade filler? Vs air you shoot with it. Vs other things you let it be the sacrifice.
bort wrote: Looking over the heavy options to possibly replace Devs with, I again wonder about tanks. (I know, most is just me wishing I could use all the Rhino chassis I own, but...maybe?)
They're all overpriced for their weapons and I know not taken by the top, but the Rhino box is a pretty good LOS blocker and have a decent track record as speed bump and chump charger.
But to my new thought, okay, if a Rhino is decent, wouldn't a Hunter be even better? For only 8 more points, now your mobile LOS blocker is T8 and carries a reroll to hit lascannon. Moving 10" instead of 12" is pretty much the sole downside. Not like you were ever gonna load that Rhino with Tacticals or anything either.
Just sticking with the Devs is easiest, but I feel like (in a list with other armor to take AT fire too) a Hunter or maybe Stalker could be a good brigade filler? Vs air you shoot with it. Vs other things you let it be the sacrifice.
The Hunter and Stalker do look tempting at their new points costs, but I always fall back to the Razorback as it's nearly the same chassis but the capacity for better armament. I've been really into the Twin Las + HK missile for 116 recently.
Stalkers in particular start to look pretty good if you have to fight Eldar with any consistency. Or Tau, I guess. Both armies often wind up with a bunch of flyers that are high priority targets.
Yeah, that's the loadout I started from until I remembered that Marine AA tanks weirdly get T8 when the Predator sadly doesn't. I think you need some sort of passable gun on the chassis. Having great durability per point doesn't mean anything if your opponent doesn't make the mistake of attacking it. But too expensive ruins the idea and you might as well go with a Dread and get your chapter tactics too.
Way better? It’s same shots for same price as a 4 HBDev unit. Not a whole lot more wounds for giving up the cherub, 1 bs2 shot and the stratagem potential (and banner if you run it). If there was a venerable mortis I’d take that for sure, but the regular mortis always seemed so bleh.
I think I’m finally settling on a Thunderfire for the same cost and slot for my list. Granted it’s like half the firepower, which is super sad, but I have no source of indirect fire otherwise and it gets the tremor shells. I might have gone the Stalker for reasons mentioned in the prior post if I had one, but realizing I’d have to put a lot of effort or money into building one I figured just wasn’t worth it.
Less vulnerable to small arms/plasma
More vulnerable to anti-tank
Can pop wisdom of the ancients so you don't require a captain babysitting them.
Can't hellfire/Flakk/Cherub
Also does the mortis still get bonuses against flying targets? or was that only last edition.
Honestly, it would depend on army composition. A couple dreads in a horde of PA will get smashed by any AV. Some Devs sitting in cover while everything else is mechanized will get singled out by any marine killer weapons.
No bonus vs flyers. I’ll grant it’s a lot closer with the dread point drop last ca and the cherub faq. But like you said seems more like an army comp thing than the dread being obviously superior.
I would call it a marked improvement in defense. 8T7 wounds vs 5 t4 wounds - it is not debatable - the dread is tougher. Even against lascannons it is almost equal. Plus a dread at 1 wound still deals 4 HB. Not saying it is an amazing choice. If you need to take a HS though for relic levi for example. I think it is a better choice than a 4 HBdev unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone have any success spamming Sterngaurd with the new bolter rule? Ether as Imperial fists or ultras with gman?
Super glass cannon but that ap-2 and double taps at 30" seems nice. I've tried a 10 man and it does pretty well.
As for tanks i still love running my trip preds with autocannon/heavy bolters. If you get t1 they are nasty with the killshot strat. If you dont put them in cover for 2cp and watch your opponent get frustrated because 2+ saves are really good. (Granted works better in space wolves with the -1 to hit strat)
As for Sternguard i have had a lot of success with them in drop pods of all things. I drop them on the front lines, mid field, with the doors open to create a long wall that protects them from being charged then drop a captian in with them with jump pack, gives them rerolls and next turn he can jump over the pod wall to assault anything that is in range. Has worked rather well from the "no one brings drop pods! Lmao" then when i pull the wall i always get a "huh..... well thats annoying".
Xenomancers wrote: I would call it a marked improvement in defense. 8T7 wounds vs 5 t4 wounds - it is not debatable - the dread is tougher. Even against lascannons it is almost equal. Plus a dread at 1 wound still deals 4 HB. Not saying it is an amazing choice. If you need to take a HS though for relic levi for example. I think it is a better choice than a 4 HBdev unit.
You don't run the full 10 men? What's the point? 10 men with 4 plasma cannons is value. Or just 4 missile launchers.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If you're running a full 10 the Dreadnought is significantly cheaper.
Even running squads sizes of 7 make the dev squad more durable for lascannons and the like then the dreadnought. You take 3 lascannon wounds and take no real loss to firepower with the dev squad, a dreadnought taking 3 lascannon wounds is very likely dead. Now it may be slightly harder to wound the dread, but not enough to offset the efficient use of d6 damage against the dreadnought.
Both units are a scary thing for your rival. The Dev can be placed much more easily in cover and you have the Cherub and the Strats. Of course now we lost the Strat repeat with the Cherub but hey, you just shoot it normal.
I am using more times my 7 man Dev squad. I always see how my rival focus a lot on them, leaving others free, and many times I just loose two or three, leaving my 3 heavy weapons free for a full shooting phase plus my other Havy weapons units.
I love my Dreadnoughts, but many times a just loose them with two LC or Dark Lances. Nothing to do there.
Xenomancers wrote: I would call it a marked improvement in defense. 8T7 wounds vs 5 t4 wounds - it is not debatable - the dread is tougher. Even against lascannons it is almost equal. Plus a dread at 1 wound still deals 4 HB. Not saying it is an amazing choice. If you need to take a HS though for relic levi for example. I think it is a better choice than a 4 HBdev unit.
You don't run the full 10 men? What's the point? 10 men with 4 plasma cannons is value. Or just 4 missile launchers.
Agreed that a 10 man is the way to do it. With plasma cannons is probably the best like you said. We are looking at around a 200 point squad at that point though. Could get almost 2 HB mortis for that. We were really just talking about a budget HS slot that still does something of value.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alex_85 wrote: Both units are a scary thing for your rival. The Dev can be placed much more easily in cover and you have the Cherub and the Strats. Of course now we lost the Strat repeat with the Cherub but hey, you just shoot it normal.
I am using more times my 7 man Dev squad. I always see how my rival focus a lot on them, leaving others free, and many times I just loose two or three, leaving my 3 heavy weapons free for a full shooting phase plus my other Havy weapons units.
I love my Dreadnoughts, but many times a just loose them with two LC or Dark Lances. Nothing to do there.
There are honestly so many applications for these guys they are almost a mandatory in any lists I take as you can put them in the repulsors to save on your drop count too! You need to make the squad as large as possible (8 or bigger) to get the most bang for your buck if you have to spend 
. But, I added up the firepower of the list, if the knight is within range of all my guys, the list can actually on average deal 20some wounds to a T8 target (I'm assuming 3+/4++ not rotated 3++, cause if rotated I'm going to fire at something else). So, realistically it's 2 turns to kill a knight, but it's possible. That's also not counting the assassin, who probably wouldn't ever be targeting a knight, but for theory purposes could be a Vindicare and add another 2 mortals.
. Maybe with Gulliman + that Vigilus 
