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Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 04:15:34


Post by: BrianDavion


 Xenomancers wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
Food for thought:

Next to guilliman, a 6 man squad of ultramarine aggressors with tactical doctrine and the strat that gives them an extra -1 AP does 17 wounds on average to a LAND RAIDER (pretty much the worst target they could choose to shoot at)

I know they might struggle to survive to turn 2, but if those impulsors can transport gravis then some would make it. Imagine playing a CC horde list against an army that puts out 120+ shots with guilliman rerolls for a SINGLE UNIT with a 24" threat range (and more if impulsors can be used)

Lol ninjad by someone with exactly the same thoughts haha

Triple impulsor with 9 agressors can move into position with a 4++ save ion front of Gman can then you can get out and lay down some serious heat. If doctrines can be changed on demand somehow it will be the way to run it. If you can deep strike 2 units of 6 that will work even better. That will destroy just about any 2 threats you pout in front of it. The rest of your army should probably focus on anti tank. Hard to say what to use. Maybe the new elimiantors with las.

It is also interesting. On turn 2 you can get 36 inch threat range sterngaurd jumping out of rhinos with ap-3 bolters! That is only 140 points lol.



course you're looking at 900 points before the transports, and you'd need to invest in a HQ of some sort as well.

Might be an idea to go with a spear head and grab a libby. especially if UMs turn out to have some juicy spells


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 05:45:56


Post by: casvalremdeikun


 Xenomancers wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What's the capacity of the new Transport? I'm super weary of minimum Aggressors and always go 4 to start.
It can only hold 3 aggressors.
Do we know it can carry Gravis?
Actually not sure. I would assume it does. If it can't it's gonna have to be hell blasters.
Be it that the pilot is a Phobos Marine, I am inclined to think it won't carry Gravis. Intercessors and Hellblasters, sure. I would like it to carry Aggressors (I run two squads, I plan on getting two Impulsors), but I could definitely see No Gravis Allowed.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 07:15:28


Post by: BrianDavion


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What's the capacity of the new Transport? I'm super weary of minimum Aggressors and always go 4 to start.
It can only hold 3 aggressors.
Do we know it can carry Gravis?
Actually not sure. I would assume it does. If it can't it's gonna have to be hell blasters.
Be it that the pilot is a Phobos Marine, I am inclined to think it won't carry Gravis. Intercessors and Hellblasters, sure. I would like it to carry Aggressors (I run two squads, I plan on getting two Impulsors), but I could definitely see No Gravis Allowed.


given they advertised it as a transport, and given we see in one of the UM previews a hellblaster parked on the back I think it'll carry everything


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 08:22:15


Post by: Ice_can


BrianDavion wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What's the capacity of the new Transport? I'm super weary of minimum Aggressors and always go 4 to start.
It can only hold 3 aggressors.
Do we know it can carry Gravis?
Actually not sure. I would assume it does. If it can't it's gonna have to be hell blasters.
Be it that the pilot is a Phobos Marine, I am inclined to think it won't carry Gravis. Intercessors and Hellblasters, sure. I would like it to carry Aggressors (I run two squads, I plan on getting two Impulsors), but I could definitely see No Gravis Allowed.


given they advertised it as a transport, and given we see in one of the UM previews a hellblaster parked on the back I think it'll carry everything

I'll point out that rhinos can't carry terminators and landraiders can.
Terminators count as 2 models gravis count as 2 models
Rulpulsor is the new landraider, if this is the new rhino I easily see and would actually see it as doubly broken to allow this to carry gravis armour. As it's points will have to be jacked to reflect the bonus agressors get from it and it won't be worth taking for any other unit.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 12:14:16


Post by: Sterling191


Eh, its a wait and see. The MSU of 3 matching the six is a point in favor of Gravis capacity.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 12:24:30


Post by: Ice_can


Sterling191 wrote:
Eh, its a wait and see. The MSU of 3 matching the six is a point in favor of Gravis capacity.

Yet strangely the preview makes a specific mention of 5 dudes plus a charictor, specifically hellblasters and a captain for reroll 1's but makes 0 mention of gravis.

If it dies it does I just dont see it being close to rhino points if it allows double shooting agressors to be to hide in a 4++ transport turn 1 and double shoot turn disembarking on the enemies deployment zone.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 12:26:23


Post by: Sterling191


Ice_can wrote:


If it dies it does I just dont see it being close to rhino points if it allows double shooting agressors to be to hide in a 4++ transport turn 1 and double shoot turn disembarking on the enemies deployment zone.


Most folk I've seen are making the logical parallels between it and a kitted out Razorback. It was never going to be a Rhino.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 12:37:12


Post by: Xenomancers


BrianDavion wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
Food for thought:

Next to guilliman, a 6 man squad of ultramarine aggressors with tactical doctrine and the strat that gives them an extra -1 AP does 17 wounds on average to a LAND RAIDER (pretty much the worst target they could choose to shoot at)

I know they might struggle to survive to turn 2, but if those impulsors can transport gravis then some would make it. Imagine playing a CC horde list against an army that puts out 120+ shots with guilliman rerolls for a SINGLE UNIT with a 24" threat range (and more if impulsors can be used)

Lol ninjad by someone with exactly the same thoughts haha

Triple impulsor with 9 agressors can move into position with a 4++ save ion front of Gman can then you can get out and lay down some serious heat. If doctrines can be changed on demand somehow it will be the way to run it. If you can deep strike 2 units of 6 that will work even better. That will destroy just about any 2 threats you pout in front of it. The rest of your army should probably focus on anti tank. Hard to say what to use. Maybe the new elimiantors with las.

It is also interesting. On turn 2 you can get 36 inch threat range sterngaurd jumping out of rhinos with ap-3 bolters! That is only 140 points lol.



course you're looking at 900 points before the transports, and you'd need to invest in a HQ of some sort as well.

Might be an idea to go with a spear head and grab a libby. especially if UMs turn out to have some juicy spells

It's 733 before the transports. The impuslors are going to be like 105ish so you still have 950 to fill out the list. Take Tiggy a phobos libby 3 units of elims with las a primaris ancient and max out on intercessors.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 12:42:47


Post by: Ice_can


Sterling191 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:


If it dies it does I just dont see it being close to rhino points if it allows double shooting agressors to be to hide in a 4++ transport turn 1 and double shoot turn disembarking on the enemies deployment zone.


Most folk I've seen are making the logical parallels between it and a kitted out Razorback. It was never going to be a Rhino.

Have terminators ever been allowed in a razorbacks?
Maybe in 2nd but I can't remember.

I'm just worried that instead of being a points cost that makes it usable to intercessors which it can only carry 6 off? etc if it can transport gravis it's going to pay premium points for the buff it gives them while leaving non beer gut primaris better off walking.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 12:56:55


Post by: Kanluwen


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Be it that the pilot is a Phobos Marine, I am inclined to think it won't carry Gravis. Intercessors and Hellblasters, sure. I would like it to carry Aggressors (I run two squads, I plan on getting two Impulsors), but I could definitely see No Gravis Allowed.

I'm not thinking that the armor the pilot is in will have any bearing on what it can transport. Phobos Armor, after all, is stripped down but still protective gear. Fluffwise it'd be the perfect armor for vehicle crews.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 13:30:02


Post by: Galef


 Kanluwen wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Be it that the pilot is a Phobos Marine, I am inclined to think it won't carry Gravis. Intercessors and Hellblasters, sure. I would like it to carry Aggressors (I run two squads, I plan on getting two Impulsors), but I could definitely see No Gravis Allowed.

I'm not thinking that the armor the pilot is in will have any bearing on what it can transport. Phobos Armor, after all, is stripped down but still protective gear. Fluffwise it'd be the perfect armor for vehicle crews.
I feel like it's almost assured that you would be able to transport Gravis armour, but it will count as 2 models. That will mean you can transport 3 Aggressors, but never with any Characters and the Gravis Capt won't ever be able to ride in one with 5 Intercessors/Hellblasters

For this reason alone, it really should have been capacity 7, but it's still good.

-


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 14:44:23


Post by: DoomMouse


I guess we can't be sure G-mans aura hasn't changed either to be fair. He'd be a lot easier to balance if he could only give out full re-roll wounds to one unit per turn. He could probably come down in points if they nerf his reroll wound aura.

If this all works out though I'm probably picking up 3 impulsors for my aggressors!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 18:55:10


Post by: bort


Impulsors should be allowed to carry Gravis. Who would design an all new transport at the same time as your all new armor suit and not make the new suit transportable?
But then again Marine techmarines have made plenty of silly tank design decisions in the past in order to sell models or for perceived balance, so I could easily see gravis be the new terminator armor for transport annoyances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If gravis can be carried at a reasonable price, I’m def on the aggressor bandwagon. I already own 15 aggressors and I’ve been wanting to go back to a mech marine style since early 8th.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 19:54:20


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Based on the White Scars preview I'm tempted to run my Minotaurs as a White Scars successor. Get a good amount of Bikes and unleash the carnage.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 20:39:57


Post by: Ice_can


Just speculation here but I think the following is the doctrines

We know Ultramarines are tactical
We know Whitescars are Assualt

Iron hands are rumoured to be most OP chapter and devistator doctrine is apparently the best

So Iron hands are probably a Devistator doctrine

Imperial fists are apparently 3rd ish in power, so they are presumably devistator as their bolter rules combined on top of a tactical doctrine would surely have put them above Ultramarines.

Of the remaining salamander and raven guard
Salamander would be tactical and raven guard will be assualt.

Assualt doctrine seems to be the weakest and no-ones been calling out white scars or ravenguard as chapters to watch.

I could have the imperial fists and salamanders the wrong way around but this is just guessing based on the little info released so far.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 20:48:28


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Salamanders are super lacking for their Chapter Tactic so we'll see what they get in their preview.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/09 21:41:58


Post by: godardc


Where do you get your rumors from ? I didn't hear anything like this before.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 00:22:01


Post by: Crazyterran


Ice_can wrote:
Just speculation here but I think the following is the doctrines

We know Ultramarines are tactical
We know Whitescars are Assualt

Iron hands are rumoured to be most OP chapter and devistator doctrine is apparently the best

So Iron hands are probably a Devistator doctrine

Imperial fists are apparently 3rd ish in power, so they are presumably devistator as their bolter rules combined on top of a tactical doctrine would surely have put them above Ultramarines.

Of the remaining salamander and raven guard
Salamander would be tactical and raven guard will be assualt.

Assualt doctrine seems to be the weakest and no-ones been calling out white scars or ravenguard as chapters to watch.

I could have the imperial fists and salamanders the wrong way around but this is just guessing based on the little info released so far.


My guesses:

IH are Devastator, UM, IF, CF, Salamanders are Tactical, RG, BT, WS are Assault.

Salamanders are my bet if there's a second Devastator, since Multi Meltas are Heavy even if normal meltas are assault.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 01:47:13


Post by: casvalremdeikun


I wonder if Imperial Fists will be Devastator Doctrine. Siege Masters used to buff Devastators and Centurion Devastators in 7e.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 01:55:29


Post by: JNAProductions


G-Man's aura is down to RR1s to-wound.

But upgraded to Cawl-grade rerolls on hits.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 02:03:41


Post by: Kanluwen


Frankly, Salamanders and Raven Guard both could fluffwise be said to any of the three.
I really hope they don't do the Assault Doctrine with Raven Guard. That was the garbage fluff, where apparently "ambush" meant "WE FLY IN WITH JUMP PACKS AND CUT YOU!".

If we're lucky, Raven Guard are going to get a bonus to their Chapter Trait while Tactical or Assault are active.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 02:08:46


Post by: Crazyterran


All the chapters might not even get permanent things like Scions of Guilliman, to balance out the more powerful traits.

White Scars and UM are the weaker of the traits, after all.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 02:12:03


Post by: Xenomancers


Ultramarine tactic is so effing bad. Now no more gman arua of goodness to justify it. Having a really powerful doctrine buff is the only thing they got going for them. If all the chapters get one. Ultras are dust. Unless they have a really OP stratagem. It is worth noting that with reroll all hits not just failed hits - the -1 to fall back hurts a lot less.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 02:16:49


Post by: Crazyterran


The rerolls all hits is better than rerolling 2s to wound imo, as it lets you keep Devastator Doctrine on longer so you can move and fire and still reroll the other misses.

It hurts a bit, but at 70pts off that's a pretty good deal.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 03:01:44


Post by: bort


I'm definitely not sticking with RG if their tactic is melee assault. I like the idea of say Shrike and some hand picked guys swooping in, but there's already BA, I don't need another entire chapter buff about jump pack assault marines to try to deep strike in. Ambushing doesn't have to mean in hand to hand. Oh, plus, if they got some crazy way to charge in post deep strike, then everyone will just compare it vs the BT charge bonus and take the better of those 2. Or even worse, if they become the air power chapter. I just refuse to use flyers at this scale.

I got the impression IF were the second heavy since everyone is saying they're one of the prerelease favorites. But I could definitely see Salamanders with the heavy bonus if they got something around being more mobile with multi-meltas to get in range easier or always got the melta damage reroll regardless of range.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 04:31:38


Post by: GreatGranpapy


So with tactics up, ultramarine bolters are double tapping all time every time right?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 05:10:43


Post by: BrianDavion


 GreatGranpapy wrote:
So with tactics up, ultramarine bolters are double tapping all time every time right?


from turn 2 on essentially yes.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 05:14:55


Post by: cole1114


BrianDavion wrote:
 GreatGranpapy wrote:
So with tactics up, ultramarine bolters are double tapping all time every time right?


from turn 2 on essentially yes.


For aggressors and executioners too, since vehicles get tactics according to the preview for ultramarines.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 05:39:27


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Crazyterran wrote:
All the chapters might not even get permanent things like Scions of Guilliman, to balance out the more powerful traits.

White Scars and UM are the weaker of the traits, after all.

White Scars getting easy T1 charges and Ultramarines not getting tied down says otherwise.

Weakest ones are Crimson Fists and Salamanders EASILY.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 05:50:40


Post by: cole1114


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
All the chapters might not even get permanent things like Scions of Guilliman, to balance out the more powerful traits.

White Scars and UM are the weaker of the traits, after all.

White Scars getting easy T1 charges and Ultramarines not getting tied down says otherwise.

Weakest ones are Crimson Fists and Salamanders EASILY.


Crimson Fists are real good against hordes, and Salamanders are good all-rounders. Honestly, the weakest tactics are probably Imperial Fists and Raven Guard and even those are pretty decent.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 06:09:54


Post by: Neophyte2012


 GreatGranpapy wrote:
So with tactics up, ultramarine bolters are double tapping all time every time right?


Need to see the book when I get it. But based on the current information, when combined with Chapter Tactic, Scions of Guilliman, Combat Doctrine, and Stratagem Tactical Expertise. Ultramarine has the highest firepower output ability now among all Space Marine armies I believe.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 06:12:33


Post by: GreatGranpapy


Oh damn, my predator will love being able to move without penalty


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 06:25:57


Post by: cole1114


 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Oh damn, my predator will love being able to move without penalty


As will executioners and aggressors being able to fire twice even if they move (their full distance, for executioners' main guns).


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 07:01:05


Post by: godardc


Neophyte2012 wrote:
 GreatGranpapy wrote:
So with tactics up, ultramarine bolters are double tapping all time every time right?


Need to see the book when I get it. But based on the current information, when combined with Chapter Tactic, Scions of Guilliman, Combat Doctrine, and Stratagem Tactical Expertise. Ultramarine has the highest firepower output ability now among all Space Marine armies I believe.


That's an always rapid firing bolter with -1 ap, -2 on a six, able to get out of assault and fire again without penalty, did I forget something ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 09:45:00


Post by: Ice_can


Ok so winter's codex review is up, a little light on details.
But looks good so far.

Some of the mk1 codex wiffs as still present, but some nice new options and strategums have been added included a 1CP skip to next doctrine strategum.
Good news for tac doctrine chapters and lesser extent to assault.
Grav cannon finally droped to 20 points.
Tacs at 12 I can see this is going to take a while to shakeout.

Repulsors +30 points. Ouch*

*For a supposwdly primaris basis codex that was to make OG marines unplayable I'm not seeing it.
Looks like GW is just going to stay in the keeping both lines going.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 16:16:23


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Someone with the book has said that Impulsor CANNOT carry Gravis or Jump Pack.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 16:37:42


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Ice_can wrote:
Ok so winter's codex review is up, a little light on details.
But looks good so far.

Some of the mk1 codex wiffs as still present, but some nice new options and strategums have been added included a 1CP skip to next doctrine strategum.
Good news for tac doctrine chapters and lesser extent to assault.
Grav cannon finally droped to 20 points.
Tacs at 12 I can see this is going to take a while to shakeout.

Repulsors +30 points. Ouch*

*For a supposwdly primaris basis codex that was to make OG marines unplayable I'm not seeing it.
Looks like GW is just going to stay in the keeping both lines going.

That Strat is one I predicted and one that's gonna be used for multiple detachments for sure. White Scars or Black Templars (heck, maybe even Iron Hands or Raven Guard) having their detachment get the better melee component whilst TFCs do their thing against the screening horses could be fun.

I know that, at minimum, my Lias Sternguard bomb got a bit cheaper and the added Strat to give an additional Warlord trait to a character is amazing for the Ancient, depending on how the Traits are now of course. I'd probably do Storm of Fire on him there.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 17:45:35


Post by: CapRichard


Storm of fire bonuses and doctrines don't stack up.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 17:59:38


Post by: Crazyterran


Tactical Marines are 12pts now.

Minor thing, but you can get ancients in Terminator Armour now.

Chaplain litanies look pretty good - adding one to wound or hit rolls when shooting are two of the possible powers, which isc crazy.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 18:01:29


Post by: bort


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Someone with the book has said that Impulsor CANNOT carry Gravis or Jump Pack.


Oh well. Not unexpected at all with those abilities to move and shoot as if stationary. But it still hurts me in the fluff. Who keeps designing APCs that their troops can't fit in?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 18:09:52


Post by: Martel732


GW. Fat troops go in the fat carriers


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 18:36:40


Post by: CapRichard


bort wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Someone with the book has said that Impulsor CANNOT carry Gravis or Jump Pack.


Oh well. Not unexpected at all with those abilities to move and shoot as if stationary. But it still hurts me in the fluff. Who keeps designing APCs that their troops can't fit in?


The head popping out of it is a Marine from the Vanguard guys. Supposedly it's their transport. We'll see in the fluff or if they have alternative heads.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 18:46:42


Post by: Xirax


Hmm, what are you guys talking about fixed doctrines on different chapters? Don't they all get them. T1 all start with -1 ap on heavy weapons.. and from T2 you can swap to tactical doctrine to give rapid fire and assault weps -1 ap.. what I didn't pick up yet is that can you go to assault doctrine on T1 if you like it to.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 18:53:30


Post by: Ice_can


Xirax wrote:
Hmm, what are you guys talking about fixed doctrines on different chapters? Don't they all get them. T1 all start with -1 ap on heavy weapons.. and from T2 you can swap to tactical doctrine to give rapid fire and assault weps -1 ap.. what I didn't pick up yet is that can you go to assault doctrine on T1 if you like it to.


Look at the previews for ultramarine and whitescars they get additional bonuses when a certain doctrine is active.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 19:09:13


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Ice_can wrote:
Xirax wrote:
Hmm, what are you guys talking about fixed doctrines on different chapters? Don't they all get them. T1 all start with -1 ap on heavy weapons.. and from T2 you can swap to tactical doctrine to give rapid fire and assault weps -1 ap.. what I didn't pick up yet is that can you go to assault doctrine on T1 if you like it to.


Look at the previews for ultramarine and whitescars they get additional bonuses when a certain doctrine is active.

There's also a Strat to change it ASAP so your Black Templars, White Scars, and Shrike lists can get to melee and be better.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 19:16:37


Post by: Ice_can


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Xirax wrote:
Hmm, what are you guys talking about fixed doctrines on different chapters? Don't they all get them. T1 all start with -1 ap on heavy weapons.. and from T2 you can swap to tactical doctrine to give rapid fire and assault weps -1 ap.. what I didn't pick up yet is that can you go to assault doctrine on T1 if you like it to.


Look at the previews for ultramarine and whitescars they get additional bonuses when a certain doctrine is active.

There's also a Strat to change it ASAP so your Black Templars, White Scars, and Shrike lists can get to melee and be better.

Does anyone have a screenshot of it, as that's not what I've picked up from the descriptions, some say choose, some say advance, some also said you could choose one you haven't used yet.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 20:02:48


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Ice_can wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Xirax wrote:
Hmm, what are you guys talking about fixed doctrines on different chapters? Don't they all get them. T1 all start with -1 ap on heavy weapons.. and from T2 you can swap to tactical doctrine to give rapid fire and assault weps -1 ap.. what I didn't pick up yet is that can you go to assault doctrine on T1 if you like it to.


Look at the previews for ultramarine and whitescars they get additional bonuses when a certain doctrine is active.

There's also a Strat to change it ASAP so your Black Templars, White Scars, and Shrike lists can get to melee and be better.

Does anyone have a screenshot of it, as that's not what I've picked up from the descriptions, some say choose, some say advance, some also said you could choose one you haven't used yet.

The video review I saw said there was a 1CP strat to change it but I wasn't paying so much attention as I should've been.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 20:10:45


Post by: CapRichard


It should be
1 strategem to change it back one step.

Then UM have
1 stratagem to have a unit work as if they have a different doctrine for a turn or phase don't remember
1 stratagem to go from assault back to devastato doctrine.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 20:21:45


Post by: Ice_can


CapRichard wrote:
It should be
1 strategem to change it back one step.

Then UM have
1 stratagem to have a unit work as if they have a different doctrine for a turn or phase don't remember
1 stratagem to go from assault back to devastato doctrine.

Oh boy that is not good as that means devistator doctrine chapters have a massive advantage.
But untill I can read the actual wording I'm holding back on judgement.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 22:38:03


Post by: bort


Oof, thunder hammers are now 40pts. So much for big units of those using that new +1 attack.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 22:39:52


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


No, Thunder Hammers are 40 points for Characters, not for units.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/10 22:44:11


Post by: bort


Ah, nice. Did they go up similarly for units too or just increase for chars?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 04:36:56


Post by: Azuza001


16 pts i think per model if not a chr. I could be wrong though

Thoughts on the amazing changes to drop pods? I heard they work t1 now.... between that and them getting past the 12" no go bubble new primaris give (the drop pod has to come in 12" out but the guys inside then get out which is not covered by the power) maybe they have a purpose for a player looking for serious t1 aggressive behavior?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 04:48:07


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


You still gotta consider what to put inside. With the new Grav Strat you can abuse a squad of Devs with four Grav Cannons.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 04:58:50


Post by: McGibs


The "dreadnought takes half damage for the rest of phase" start is going to make Leviathans the most hated things ever. I already have enough trouble killing those things at tournaments, and now they get +1ap on turn one, and this 1cp strat to make them harder to kill than a knight.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 05:31:43


Post by: bort


One thing to consider with all the changes and the useful strats is that they are cutting 5+ CP off most marine armies. No more loyal 32 5cp, no more AM refund trait/relic (unless you give up the doctrines), and no more Guilliman. Getting a double battalion or brigade in marines was always rough, even moreso if encouraged to take primaris instead of scouts. Starting with only like 9cp looks a lot worse when there's useful things to spend it on.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 05:42:39


Post by: Crazyterran


Well, for the Leviathan and FW units, hopefully FW updates their datasheets to reflect them having Angels of Death rather quickly, otherwise they won't be able to be used until FW does.

EDIT: As a UM player, one of our best relics seems to be that Seal of Oath - being able to pick a target to reroll hits and wounds against will be pretty baller to destroying something scary like a token Castellan or big model.

Heck, just putting it on a LT or something and him sitting with the big guns to shoot that one thing that has to die is as good as parking an old Guilliman on top of those guns, for 60pts minimum!

And Master of Strategy seems to be our best WL Trait, letting one unit within 6" of the warlord act as though the tactical doctrine is active lets you have a little more freedom to move even on turn one.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 06:18:11


Post by: BrianDavion


bort wrote:
One thing to consider with all the changes and the useful strats is that they are cutting 5+ CP off most marine armies. No more loyal 32 5cp, no more AM refund trait/relic (unless you give up the doctrines), and no more Guilliman. Getting a double battalion or brigade in marines was always rough, even moreso if encouraged to take primaris instead of scouts. Starting with only like 9cp looks a lot worse when there's useful things to spend it on.


agreed. marines are not going to want to soup. If the new SM codex is the future of the game, then soups going to swiftly become less popular, I suspect it'll be present for some armies still but a lot of the complete armies that where always intended to be stand alone?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 08:03:46


Post by: Eldarain


The anti soup measures are definitely a welcome sign. Now we just need the oft predicted rarely realised "all the books will be like this now" to happen.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 13:11:05


Post by: McGibs


Well, for the Leviathan and FW units, hopefully FW updates their datasheets to reflect them having Angels of Death rather quickly, otherwise they won't be able to be used until FW does.


I think this is actually futureproofed by the Angels of Death rules itself, which gives it to everything with the Astartes keyword, except Servitors. It doesn't matter if the datasheet actually has it or not, it's granted by the codex.
Still not looking forward to half-damage leviathans.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 15:52:49


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 McGibs wrote:
Well, for the Leviathan and FW units, hopefully FW updates their datasheets to reflect them having Angels of Death rather quickly, otherwise they won't be able to be used until FW does.


I think this is actually futureproofed by the Angels of Death rules itself, which gives it to everything with the Astartes keyword, except Servitors. It doesn't matter if the datasheet actually has it or not, it's granted by the codex.
Still not looking forward to half-damage leviathans.

That's actually really good to know as it means I don't have to worry about updates to FW unit entries outside point costs.

Also we should really get a new thread going.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 15:54:55


Post by: Martel732


Hopefully gw gaks the leviathan in matched play


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 15:56:31


Post by: Ice_can


Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully gw gaks the leviathan in matched play

Really you want GW to just squat all forgeworld stuff?
You need to find something else to even out your negativity and hate dude.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 16:02:09


Post by: Dudeface


Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully gw gaks the leviathan in matched play


Me too, then the stupid cries of "omg fw pay to win" can go away.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 16:29:06


Post by: Darkseid


People still post trash like that? Though that stopped years ago, when GW got more inclusive about FW. Talking about relics of a bygone age.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2687/03/11 16:03:00


Post by: grouchoben


The Leviathan is a great unit but it's that by design. It's a key SM profile, and has actually been buffed a few times now (points drop and can take 3 HK missiles). I doubt it's going anywhere, Martel, so you'll have to learn to live with it I think.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 19:57:16


Post by: godardc




There are some obvious combos, but what are your personal combos ? What do you think you will do ?
I wish there was a withdraw and shoot seeing as there is a withdraw and charge though :(


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 20:24:11


Post by: bort


Not my personal style, but +1 to advance and charge rolls is really nice. +3" range has some very interesting potentials, but I'd have to stare at the whole unit list for a while as you'd want to build the entire army around it.

Overall, I'm less enthused than I hoped, I was originally assuming it'd be a tough choice between an awesome custom tactic pairing or set chapter doctrine bonuses and perks, but this list makes me think I'd rather do with a known chapter, probably sticking with my IH plan. Especially if they happen to also get some Dev doctrine that those in the know consider strong, that's just icing. That or go UM cause I like all their mobility options in tactical.

I'd have liked some custom options that upped survivability. It's great they've upped the killing power of marines, but they look very glass hammer.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 20:34:56


Post by: godardc


Yeah you summed up my thoughts exactly !
It's almost always better to keep a famous chapter trait.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 20:51:52


Post by: Martel732


 grouchoben wrote:
The Leviathan is a great unit but it's that by design. It's a key SM profile, and has actually been buffed a few times now (points drop and can take 3 HK missiles). I doubt it's going anywhere, Martel, so you'll have to learn to live with it I think.


I don't understand why codex dreads are gak but FW is allowed to print these units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully gw gaks the leviathan in matched play

Really you want GW to just squat all forgeworld stuff?
You need to find something else to even out your negativity and hate dude.


I want FW and Indices gone, yes. FW doesn't even have an operating crew anymore from what I've read.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 21:13:03


Post by: Ice_can


Martel732 wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
The Leviathan is a great unit but it's that by design. It's a key SM profile, and has actually been buffed a few times now (points drop and can take 3 HK missiles). I doubt it's going anywhere, Martel, so you'll have to learn to live with it I think.


I don't understand why codex dreads are gak but FW is allowed to print these units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully gw gaks the leviathan in matched play

Really you want GW to just squat all forgeworld stuff?
You need to find something else to even out your negativity and hate dude.


I want FW and Indices gone, yes. FW doesn't even have an operating crew anymore from what I've read.

No they have sculptors, casters, rules writer's etc.
The Main 40k rulea writer's just complained to management enough to gain control of the 40k rules for FW models.

You confusing GW internal politics for something it's not.
It's because the main rules team don't want to admit that they dont understand their own rules.
The only reason we have codex 2.0 for marines is the terrible sales of marine units causing managment to get involved.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 22:06:05


Post by: Martel732


Maybe, but i dont want to have to order resin do get a decent dread.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 22:12:36


Post by: Ice_can


Martel732 wrote:
Maybe, but i dont want to have to order resin do get a decent dread.

Seriously have you seen the Blood angles specific leviathan model that thing make a regular leviathan look hobo.
And a regular leviathan makes the redemptor look like the middle age beer gut version of a dread.

Also FW being the only viable dreadnaughts isn't a new thing you realise the plastic Contemptor came into being after the resin one.
Ge main doesn't understand why dreadnaughts arn't played and have zero interest in fixing them. Removing FW just leaves marines without viable dreadnaughts full stop.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/11 23:26:31


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Martel732 wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
The Leviathan is a great unit but it's that by design. It's a key SM profile, and has actually been buffed a few times now (points drop and can take 3 HK missiles). I doubt it's going anywhere, Martel, so you'll have to learn to live with it I think.


I don't understand why codex dreads are gak but FW is allowed to print these units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully gw gaks the leviathan in matched play

Really you want GW to just squat all forgeworld stuff?
You need to find something else to even out your negativity and hate dude.


I want FW and Indices gone, yes. FW doesn't even have an operating crew anymore from what I've read.

That sounds like a personal problem, so get over it. Even if their entries were deleted, even their regular Dreads still look better so I'd order those.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 00:01:05


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


So the new codex is here, but what will it actually mean for marine troops choices? Marine infantry has been in a poor place for a long time due to generally poor offense and defense, and the fact that its easily wiped off the board by plasma, and even weapons that are typically considered to be anti horde (heavy bolters, punisher russes). But now the new chapter traits will give them a lot more defense, there's been some points changes, and increases to offensive power from the new Combat Doctrine system. Lots of people seem to be thinking that Old Marines are out and that the reign of Primaris will now be beginning, so I thought it'd be interesting to run the numbers on Intercessors vs the humble Tactical marine and see how they shake out both at killing each other, and at killing other common targets.

Let's keep in mind these changes from the new codex:
- Tactical marines are now 12 points
- All rapidfire and assault weapons can get ap-1 starting turn 2 (turn 1 its all heavy weapons) from Combat Doctrines
- Auto Bolt Rifles went up to Assault 3 (they still cost 1 pt, putting Intercessors to 18)
- Ultramarines count as having not moved when in Tactical Doctrine, thus always getting Bolter Discipline and no heavy weapon penalties to hit.

Here's some numbers comparing two plasma heavy tactical squads with an equivalent amount of intercessors. Note that there's basically no reason to take a ten man squad when you can take 2 5 man squads and get an extra weapon, and extra melee special weapon. So pay more attention to the second Column for tacs. Also note that this is showing damage, not kills. So for multiwound models, you need to divide the first column by the number of wounds the model has.



Conclusions:

1) Wow those tacs actually do a lot of damage now! Plasma hasn't changed of course, but the plasma guns are getting an extra -1 ap from Tactical Doctrine, which means they completely ignore 3+ saves. And now the Bolters actually can kill. Intercessors cost another 50% more than tacs, but once you factor in the cost of special/heavy weapons, these two unit types even out quite well.

2) The Auto Bolt Rifle intercessors can overtake the tacs at killing Guardsmen and Boyz due to their new 3rd shot. The Auto Bolt Rifle massively outperforms the Bolt Rifle now too, even being slightly better than the Bolt Rifle vs heavier targets. But you lose range, which could easily mean a full turn of shooting lost.

3) The Bolt Rifle Intercessors will do their full damage out to 30" (even when moving if Ultramarines). The Tacs need to get into rapidfire range to bring the plasma to bear. But will still do decently at 24".

4) The intercessors are basically only good against infantry, whereas the tacs can threaten literally anything.

5) If the tacs took plasma cannons instead of guns, then they'd have more range, and those would benefit from the Devastator Doctrine's -1 ap turn 1. It would trade firepower turn 2 and beyond for more firepower turn 1. Good for Objective Camper squads too.

6) The intercessors have about double wounds for the same squad price, but are also vulnerable to d2 weapons. And as models are lost, they lose firepower in a linear way. But the tacs have most of their firepower packed into the plasma users, so they can lose several models before it changes much. Overall, these units are actually going to have similar levels of durability and efficiency on the battlefield because of this (unless your opponent brings either no d2, or a huge amount of it).

7) The intercessors have an extra 50% attacks in melee in the first round, or 100% more second round. So they are far better in melee than the tacticals. But they still aren't great there unless you get to Assault Doctrine on turn 3, in which case they'll do okay, but still not likely to measure up against dedicated melee units. With melee focused Chapter Traits they'd be pretty nasty.

8) If tacs took Grav instead of Plasma you'd have similar results vs infantry but with less risk and slightly higher cost, but they wouldn't be as much of a threat to heavy armor.

9) The Tacticals will absolutely obliterate the Intercessors at close ranges, and perhaps even at 24".

Anyone have any other conclusions to draw from this? Did I make any math mistakes?

Overall, I'm thinking this means that the day of the humble Tactical Marine is far from over. You'll need a way to get them into range to deliver their plasma, but Rhinos just got a points drop, and Drop Pods can drop turn 1 again, so that might actually work out. Intercessors will have a solid role being able to threaten infantry at long range and be durable vs small arms too. We may see a meta where both these units actually have their uses!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 00:32:24


Post by: bort


I agree, the Tactical marine is looking a lot better. If Rhinos had the Assault Vehicle rule to match Primaris in an Impulsor I would seriously consider them. But lacking that...


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 00:33:44


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


The issue there is they don't carry a lot of Plasma, and you made mention of meatshields BUT if you're doing two separate 5 man squads like you suggest that's only 3 dudes. It isn't a good unit for camping an objective either. Intercessors really do come out on top for their price, especially if it's true Sternguard are only 14 with their special Bolter.

If I'm going brigade, I'd be doing ×3 Intercessors and ×3 Scouts. Don't see any value in the Tactical Squad still.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 00:58:14


Post by: Xenomancers


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue there is they don't carry a lot of Plasma, and you made mention of meatshields BUT if you're doing two separate 5 man squads like you suggest that's only 3 dudes. It isn't a good unit for camping an objective either. Intercessors really do come out on top for their price, especially if it's true Sternguard are only 14 with their special Bolter.

If I'm going brigade, I'd be doing ×3 Intercessors and ×3 Scouts. Don't see any value in the Tactical Squad still.

Just go for bare bones tacticals - don't even put them in a rhino and give the sergeant a power sword/axe and storm bolter. Pretty good as ultramarines.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 01:18:28


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue there is they don't carry a lot of Plasma, and you made mention of meatshields BUT if you're doing two separate 5 man squads like you suggest that's only 3 dudes. It isn't a good unit for camping an objective either. Intercessors really do come out on top for their price, especially if it's true Sternguard are only 14 with their special Bolter.

If I'm going brigade, I'd be doing ×3 Intercessors and ×3 Scouts. Don't see any value in the Tactical Squad still.


Why scouts? Tacs are only a single point more for a better save and better heavy weapon options.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 01:37:26


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Scouts get to screen against enemy Deep Strikers much more effectively due to Infiltrate.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 02:21:06


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Scouts get to screen against enemy Deep Strikers much more effectively due to Infiltrate.

Bingo. Any that survive can make use of the Tactical Doctrine with their Shotguns too.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 02:24:49


Post by: Martel732


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Scouts get to screen against enemy Deep Strikers much more effectively due to Infiltrate.


I'd rather use infiltrators.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 02:33:11


Post by: Vilehydra


Honestly I think there is a real strength to combining pick&choose CTs with a founding chapter backing them up with 2 successors. It enables you to micro-customize your list with 3 different flavorings of marines and still get doctrines.

Not really a soup, because its all marines. More of a Salad maybe?

Also, can one of you stats people do a run up of if whirlwind of rage or duelist are better? My intuition is leaning towards whirlwind being better for higher value weapons like THs, while duelist is better for high volume weapons.




Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 05:38:25


Post by: tneva82


bort wrote:
I'd have liked some custom options that upped survivability. It's great they've upped the killing power of marines, but they look very glass hammer.


You just summed whole 8th ed there. 8th ed has been all about making pretty much everything good at killing stuff, bad at surviving. When some of the toughest units in the game are grots and imperial guard troopers you know game isn't about stuff surviving!

New marine codex is just turning the dial to 11 even more :( Which is not what I would prefer. Even if game would be balanced it leads even more to 1st turn deciding and the models you spend time painting gets packed super fast. Paint awesome looking knight? Good job. If it's your only knight watch it die on opponents first turn...

Ah well. Easy to see the reason(£) for this design style.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 11:03:09


Post by: Trade_Prince


Speaking in terms of Ultramarines, is there a consensus on Hellblasters vs Suppressors? With the UM rules, Suppressors count as stationary from T2 onwards. This means an easy deep strike and making full use of their Fly keyword and still hitting on 3s. However, Suppressors only come in units of 3. This can be advantage if you want to fill up those FA slots, but generally all it does is putting you at risk of going second.

Hellblasters hit harder at 15" and below and can have 5-10 models. However, they only hit harder if you overcharge, putting them at risk, and the -4 is usually wasted, seeing as -2 is the sweetspot these days. S8 is solid though.

Both have similar ppm (33 for HB and 35 for Sup).

Thoughts?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 11:12:05


Post by: BrianDavion


well hellblasters are gonna be a lot easier to get then supressors, and hellblasters lack the flight stand two big points in hellblasters favor IMHO


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 11:26:52


Post by: godardc


Depending of the new points cost, I may play terminators again:
With the reroll of 1's chapter tactics, tactical doctrine on, and the +1 to hit stratagem they would get quite a firepower, and even in assault they would be 50% better than before, not including the stratagem again.
I think lightning claws terminators are they real winners here with +1a and +1ap, they were lacking in AP.

I think I may go for bolter fusillade and hungry for battles, as chapter tactics: this way I get more from the shooting part of my army (tacticals, sternguards, stormraven with sponsons...) while helping my assault part (vanguards and characters).


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 11:31:39


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Martel732 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Scouts get to screen against enemy Deep Strikers much more effectively due to Infiltrate.


I'd rather use infiltrators.


Good for you. The question was "why Scouts over Tacticals" though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 12:54:11


Post by: DoomMouse


Assault doctrine seems meh to me purely because it is only active from turn 3 at the earliest. Could be good for a late game punch or two, but it's annoying you can't base your core strategy around it due to how late it triggers. Seems a bit arbitrary that assault heavy SM armies would be locked into bonuses to their heavy guns turn 1.

Any strategy relying on devastator doctrine is going to be at a hefty advantage as it can start turn 1 and remain just as strong all game.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 13:17:21


Post by: Martel732


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Scouts get to screen against enemy Deep Strikers much more effectively due to Infiltrate.


I'd rather use infiltrators.


Good for you. The question was "why Scouts over Tacticals" though.


The armor I suppose.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 13:23:31


Post by: schadenfreude


If marine players start giving up the loyal 32 I'm expecting we might start to see brigades. Scout bikes and tarantulas are cheap for fast attack along with whirlwinds and eliminators for HS.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 13:39:33


Post by: Sterling191


Single HB Speeders for 55 points are I believe the cheapest non FW option in the FA role.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 13:42:02


Post by: Azuza001


I have been running brigades with my marines for awhile now, this change of losing doctrines if your not 100% adeptus astartues is a good thing imo. Helps give a reason not to soup.

Attack bikes with a heavy bolter are 37 pts a model. Myself i take 3 man biker squads though, 69 pts puts out a lot of firepower


I would like to see if you lose the doctrines if you get an assassin though....


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 13:47:51


Post by: Ice_can


Azuza001 wrote:
I have been running brigades with my marines for awhile now, this change of losing doctrines if your not 100% adeptus astartues is a good thing imo. Helps give a reason not to soup.

Attack bikes with a heavy bolter are 37 pts a model. Myself i take 3 man biker squads though, 69 pts puts out a lot of firepower


I would like to see if you lose the doctrines if you get an assassin though....

It's been discussed but RAW yes even if you use the strategum.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 14:02:59


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Martel732 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Scouts get to screen against enemy Deep Strikers much more effectively due to Infiltrate.


I'd rather use infiltrators.

Infiltrators can cover a lot of ground by themselves due to the math on a 12" barrier being significant compared to a 9" area. However you would have to keep in mind there are multiple areas on the table to cover. I can use Tarantula Sentry Heavy Bolters for some of that but not all.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 14:38:45


Post by: schadenfreude


As a guard player I'm happy to see HB attack bikes because the alternative is a real PITA. 71 point Bikes and scout bikes with a storm bolter put out an obnoxious amount of shots. IMO scout bikes are better against guard. I usually kill bikes with plasma so the 4+ save isn't a big deal, but the extra 2" move, shotgun, and combat knife make them a solid CC threat.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 15:17:47


Post by: Hulksmash


 schadenfreude wrote:
As a guard player I'm happy to see HB attack bikes because the alternative is a real PITA. 71 point Bikes and scout bikes with a storm bolter put out an obnoxious amount of shots. IMO scout bikes are better against guard. I usually kill bikes with plasma so the 4+ save isn't a big deal, but the extra 2" move, shotgun, and combat knife make them a solid CC threat.


Just a heads up but you can give a chainsword to normal bikers in exchange for their pistol now


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 16:44:15


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


And that Chainsword will actually do something compared to last edition.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 19:52:51


Post by: iGuy91


I am so lost in regards to where to go with my marines now.
I don't have Gman, I have 10 intercessors, 5 hellblasters.

I have a bucket of old marines. Lots of sternguard. A pair of old drednaughts. Lots of drop pods. Lots of predators and razorbacks.

Sounds all very old at this point. Any point in trying to run them with the new dex?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 19:59:30


Post by: Ice_can


 iGuy91 wrote:
I am so lost in regards to where to go with my marines now.
I don't have Gman, I have 10 intercessors, 5 hellblasters.

I have a bucket of old marines. Lots of sternguard. A pair of old drednaughts. Lots of drop pods. Lots of predators and razorbacks.

Sounds all very old at this point. Any point in trying to run them with the new dex?

Yes
predators now get chapter tactics
Tacs got cheaper
Razorbacks get chapter tactics apparently
Drop pods have some special rules which can be used for advantages.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 20:13:07


Post by: Crimson


For the sake of clarity could we start a new thread now that the new codex is imminent? In the future it will be super confusing when first 150 pages of the thread refer to rules that are no longer current.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 20:28:22


Post by: demontalons


Are we just not going to talk about the Teeth Of Terra Captain who can now get 9 Str 7 attacks at ap-2 2d?

ANd depending on traits can get exploding 6's or auto wounds on 6's to hit?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 20:32:45


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


The teeth of Terra got a buff? That was the last weapon that needed a buff. What did it get?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 20:35:37


Post by: Crimson


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The teeth of Terra got a buff? That was the last weapon that needed a buff. What did it get?

It's now just flat +3 attacks instead of D3. And I'm even more salty that the Primaris can't take it.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 20:52:13


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Crimson wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The teeth of Terra got a buff? That was the last weapon that needed a buff. What did it get?

It's now just flat +3 attacks instead of D3. And I'm even more salty that the Primaris can't take it.

YOU GET A USELESS COMBAT BLADE!
YOU GET A USELESS COMBAT BLADE!
EVERYONE GETS A USELESS COMBAT BLADE!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/12 21:02:25


Post by: nomadimp


Anyone know how all the various white dwarf and vigilus stuff works with the new codex? It seems like some of it got replicated in the new book, but not all of it. For example, the crimson fist relics from WD, or the IF siege detatchments.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 0012/08/12 23:12:18


Post by: demontalons


Most likely when the faq comes out theyll address it. UNless it comes out in the wave of stuff theyre releasing to bring the non codex chapters up to date


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 04:28:27


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
For the sake of clarity could we start a new thread now that the new codex is imminent? In the future it will be super confusing when first 150 pages of the thread refer to rules that are no longer current.


my hope is to hold off until friday when people actually have the codex, until then it's mostly speculation.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 04:41:48


Post by: NexAddo


When do all the supplements come out? Is it the same time as the SM Codex?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 05:00:38


Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis


So is Burning Blade now D2 or not? I've heard conflicting reports...


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 05:50:48


Post by: BrianDavion


 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So is Burning Blade now D2 or not? I've heard conflicting reports...


it is yes, I've seen the sheet in online reviews. a nice little bump


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 11:23:07


Post by: DoomMouse


-chapter master strat is cheaper
-Chapter master strat allows re-rolls of everything irrespective of modifiers
-Heavy weapons get AP-1 round 1

How about running a cheap CM with 3 stalkers? 1 CP and 300pts would allow 13.5 hits per turn on ground targets at S7 AP-2 D2 shots. That equals around 6 damage per turn on a 5++ knight, which isn't shabby for the points invested.

They also bring a ton of wounds defensively, with 33 T7 3+ save wounds to chew through. I'd also throw a power fist on the CM to provide a brutal counter-charge if something decided to try and lock up the stalkers. Storm bolters on the stalkers also seem sensible as they re roll to hit.

And of course it is far stronger against flyers of any sort, downing a -2 flyer per turn with average dice, even if you don't use the fancy new skyfire strat.

Very tempted to add this little formation into a pure SM list. Whichever chapter tactic you choose is only icing on the cake, any individual one is non-essential. Iron hands and UM would both be decent though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 14:24:05


Post by: iGuy91


DO we know if the leviathan dreadnought is gonna have the Angels of Death keyword now? I've heard some people say it does, some that it doesn't


Also, what do you think the best chapter to run razorbacks and predators will be?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 14:34:20


Post by: McGibs


I mispoke earlier, I thought they were smart enough to future proof the rule by just blanket giving ALL adeptus astartes units AoD as a general army rule, but I was misreading the Combat Doctrine rule (which is part of AoD)
Looks like forgeworld will have to put out a FAQ to give all their units AoD, so who knows how long that will take. If GW is on their toes, they'll come out with day 1 PDFs like every other codex.

Another note with the Chapter Master strat, it targets the Captain keyword now, and not just the Captain datasheet. Primaris Chapter Masters, yay!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 0003/08/13 14:35:09


Post by: Martel732


Or FW doesn't get AoD. That would be a way to let people down softly.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 14:39:04


Post by: McGibs


Even IF Leviathans don't get AoD, they're still dreadnoughts and can still be targeted by the half-damage strat for 1cp.
I'm legit worried about these things, as most marine players in my meta already seem to have at least one on deck.
Aside from bringing down the insanity of their double storm-cannons, I'm not sure how they can be balanced without invalidating them vs other dreads. They're a cool model and I love the idea of them.. but gzus they are absolutely on another level of lethality and durability to anything else in the game when they're buffed properly.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 14:43:07


Post by: Orodhen


I'm just imagining Bray'Arth Ashmantle with the half damage strat.

With the points drop and wound buff, are Assault Centurions useful now?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 14:45:42


Post by: McGibs


I'm just imagining Bray'Arth Ashmantle with the half damage strat.


Urgh. Just try to stay out of his way and kill the rest of the army. What else can you do?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 14:48:55


Post by: Galef


 iGuy91 wrote:
DO we know if the leviathan dreadnought is gonna have the Angels of Death keyword now? I've heard some people say it does, some that it doesn't
I would assume (read: hope) that when GW releases the PDF/FAQ giving Angels of Death rule to BA/DA/SW, they word it in a way that gives it to all ADEPTUS ASTARTES units. That would blanket even FW units without needing a FW FAQ

-


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 14:54:23


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Martel732 wrote:
Or FW doesn't get AoD. That would be a way to let people down softly.

Do you ever shut up? Please just go away.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:01:03


Post by: Martel732


 McGibs wrote:
Even IF Leviathans don't get AoD, they're still dreadnoughts and can still be targeted by the half-damage strat for 1cp.
I'm legit worried about these things, as most marine players in my meta already seem to have at least one on deck.
Aside from bringing down the insanity of their double storm-cannons, I'm not sure how they can be balanced without invalidating them vs other dreads. They're a cool model and I love the idea of them.. but gzus they are absolutely on another level of lethality and durability to anything else in the game when they're buffed properly.


The only fix is to make the leviathans not targetable by that strat or increase their cost. A lot.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:01:58


Post by: Crazyterran


I'm sure FW will have a FAQ on Saturday. Though I'm surprised no one has asked on Facebook.

EDIT: I'm sure most people who run a Leviathan run more than one, so make one pop the strat and nuke the others.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:09:03


Post by: Thedecay


The Storm Cannon Leviathan is already over 300pts, how much more should it cost? lol


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:11:49


Post by: Martel732


If it can halve its damage, a LOT. 400 at least.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:16:47


Post by: McGibs


Yeah, I don't think a flat point increase is the answer. Pointing things because of disproportionate stratagems is a rough road. Can't really point the strat higher, because 1cp is fine for most other dreads.

Honestly I just think the profile on the stormcannons is too nuts. 10 shots apeice at BS2 is ridiculous. Those guns are about as perfect a statline as you can get. Strong enough to reliably wound most tanks, enough AP to negate armour but not overpenetrate invulns, reliable 2 damage, and a bazillion shots with great BS. That's on top of a knight-durability chassis (even more with this strat). The Chaos Leviathan isnt nearly as broken because it has less shots and AP (and it doesnt have a 4++ out of combat).
If they dropped ONE thing about the cannons, I'd sweat a lot less. One less AP. One less damage. A couple less shots. One less strength. Just pick one stat and drop it.

I'd be okay with it being almost unkillible only if it couldn't also obliterate whatever you pointed it at. Not dealing with leviathans is not a valid stratagy because they are so stupidly killy.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:18:08


Post by: Martel732


In a perfect world, I agree. It's easier to push out a points change, though, than a weapon profile change. In their brains at least, I'm sure.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:27:30


Post by: demontalons


Most likely theyll do the same thing as they did for chaos with the helbrute strat that allows them to shoot twice. They clarified that it was only for the unit called Helbrute and now those with the keyword Helbrute. So they may just faq it by saying the following are affected by the strat etc etc.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:42:54


Post by: Galef


Martel732 wrote:
If it can halve its damage, a LOT. 400 at least.
I don't often agree with Martel, but having just recently seen the rules for the Leviathan, I kinda agree it's currently a bargain for what you get.
I mean, it's basically a Questor class Knight that trades 10 wound for 2+ armour, 2+ to hit and a 4++ (without needing a trait or strat). Then you can give it 2 str7 Gatling cannons for 20 total shots, plus 3 HKMs and 2 Heavy flamers.
It's only weakness seems to be getting tied up in combat, but with 2 heavy flamers and 20 shots, that might be harder to do than against a Knight.

Spending a CP to make it half damage on top of all that seems like an auto-take.

-


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 15:46:10


Post by: Martel732


 Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If it can halve its damage, a LOT. 400 at least.
I don't often agree with Martel, but having just recently seen the rules for the Leviathan, I kinda agree it's currently a bargain for what you get.
I mean, it's basically a Questor class Knight that trades 10 wound for 2+ armour, 2+ to hit and a 4++ (without needing a trait or strat). Then you can give it 2 str7 Gatling cannons for 20 total shots, plus 3 HKMs and 2 Heavy flamers.
It's only weakness seems to be getting tied up in combat, but with 2 heavy flamers and 20 shots, that might be harder to do than against a Knight.

Spending a CP to make it half damage on top of all that seems like an auto-take.

-


You say this a lot. What specifically do we disagree on at this point?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 16:02:28


Post by: Galef


Martel732 wrote:
You say this a lot. What specifically do we disagree on at this point?
Now that I think about it, we probably agree on far more things on a general basis, but often not the specifics. I.e. we seem to agree when an issue exists, but disagree on the solution.

So while agree the leviathan is very powerful, I disagree that not giving it AoD or the ability to use the strat is the answer. It absolutely should get both. But also be more points, preferably the Stormcannons should cost more than 5 autocannons each (because they are basically 5 autocannon with only 24" but Ap-2). The jump form Ap-1 to Ap-2 is a big deal.

-


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 16:09:00


Post by: bananathug


The halve the damage strat is really good but the Levi is one of the few good table top units marines have access too. I'm scared that if you guys think it is too good now just wait until the IH supplement comes out...

There are lots of problems with it though. It is it is relic, so fitting two of them into a list is tough, it gets tied up in combat really easy, the 24" range is super restrictive, moving and shooting turns its 2+ into a 3+ BS and str 7 isn't great in the meta.

It still dies in a meta designed to kill knights, doesn't kill eldar flyers, knights, custodes grav, tank commanders or other in meta threats particularly good (just better than a lot of other marine units). I run mine as DW and it is really good with them (deepstriking to keep them from getting blown off the table turn 1 and w/in 24" range and 2 cp +1 to wound makes str 7 good).

All that being said the new half damage strat is going to make them really hard to kill and will most likely be the auto take that you guys are scared of. But my DW/DA/BA/SW don't have access to that strat so upping the points isn't an answer I could get behind.

edit:
Galef, the drop between 48" range and 24" range is HUGE. I'd trade ap -2 for 48" right now. Basically you are trading 1 point of BS for -1 ap (have to move to get w/in 24" the vast majority of my games). With 48" you get to outrange tau, not get kited by a lot of other ranged units and actually get to stick with a castle vs. venturing out closer to melee/deepstrike threats. Butcher cannons on the chaos dreads are better for cheaper (s8, 36" and negs to leadership is a bargain, throw in purge re-roll all hits and they are a better unit for the price).


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 16:17:50


Post by: McGibs


It for sure has some weaknesses (range and combat), but they're not glaringly so.
24" +8" move can still cover most of the board from midfield, and as stated, its got a real mean overwatch, especially with rerolls, so getting into combat with it takes some finesse.

In their current form, I find them just barely tolerable. They're killable, but I really have to dedicate the vast majority of my anti tank to do so, otherwise they'll delete at least one unit per turn.
Now they suddenly have double survivability, and there's just no way I see myself bringing them down fast enough before they gut me. If they don't get a nerf, I can see them absolutely being an autotake (they were already one of the onyl few viable marine units) with no real hard counter, which is a bad bad thing.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 16:24:20


Post by: Tibs Ironblood


An Iron Hand leviathan will not only be that extra bit durable, but also never degrade and overwatch on a 5+. With a chapter master nearby even on overwatch he will put out lethal firepower. I do hope the leviathan does not get access to that half damage strat and that is as a marine player. It would be an absolute terror in the night.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 16:52:32


Post by: Xenomancers


 Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If it can halve its damage, a LOT. 400 at least.
I don't often agree with Martel, but having just recently seen the rules for the Leviathan, I kinda agree it's currently a bargain for what you get.
I mean, it's basically a Questor class Knight that trades 10 wound for 2+ armour, 2+ to hit and a 4++ (without needing a trait or strat). Then you can give it 2 str7 Gatling cannons for 20 total shots, plus 3 HKMs and 2 Heavy flamers.
It's only weakness seems to be getting tied up in combat, but with 2 heavy flamers and 20 shots, that might be harder to do than against a Knight.

Spending a CP to make it half damage on top of all that seems like an auto-take.

-
It's been auto take for a long time. Because basically every unit in the marine codex is overcosted and this thing is clearly undercosted. Ultimately though without the Gman buff it's going down in power level overall. I was already making it -1 to hit with t9. Essentially forcing opponents to ignore it and it was destroying about it's point value every turn almost automatically. Still though it's short ranged and units that ignore overwatch and 1 shot knights have no problem with this thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 McGibs wrote:
It for sure has some weaknesses (range and combat), but they're not glaringly so.
24" +8" move can still cover most of the board from midfield, and as stated, its got a real mean overwatch, especially with rerolls, so getting into combat with it takes some finesse.

In their current form, I find them just barely tolerable. They're killable, but I really have to dedicate the vast majority of my anti tank to do so, otherwise they'll delete at least one unit per turn.
Now they suddenly have double survivability, and there's just no way I see myself bringing them down fast enough before they gut me. If they don't get a nerf, I can see them absolutely being an autotake (they were already one of the onyl few viable marine units) with no real hard counter, which is a bad bad thing.

Think of it like a tau riptide. It's very similar. It should take your whole army to focus down a 300 point unit.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 17:26:09


Post by: bananathug


What are you shooting that it is killing 300 points in one turn?

It doesn't kill a tank commander in one turn (20 shots, 15ish hits (moved re-rolling 1s), 5 wounds, 10 damage. Knights laugh at it. Eldar flyers laugh. I mean, I guess if you are going against marines you can light up some plasma inceptors (although they probably kill you first if they are DA) or terrible hellblasters but what in-meta stuff is this thing a threat to without gman re-roll bubble (hell, doesn't even kill an alaitoc wave serpent)?

I guess with Gman re-rolls it could do work but then that's more like a 500 point unit and this thing isn't removing 500 points of anything no matter what re-rolls (and now those re-rolls are gone).

I can't think of a 300 point meta unit this thing kills while there's a lot in the meta that will smoke it for around those points (Krast crusader, BA smash captain, a couple grav tanks, a couple tank commanders, aberrants, rock saws, morty, relic shock attack + anything, lord discos, chain lord, trip-tides, crusader, I'm sure some chaos knights can do it, haywire, grots, trip fire prisims...)


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 17:39:09


Post by: Xenomancers


bananathug wrote:
What are you shooting that it is killing 300 points in one turn?

It doesn't kill a tank commander in one turn (20 shots, 15ish hits (moved re-rolling 1s), 5 wounds, 10 damage. Knights laugh at it. Eldar flyers laugh. I mean, I guess if you are going against marines you can light up some plasma inceptors (although they probably kill you first if they are DA) or terrible hellblasters but what in-meta stuff is this thing a threat to without gman re-roll bubble (hell, doesn't even kill an alaitoc wave serpent)?

I guess with Gman re-rolls it could do work but then that's more like a 500 point unit and this thing isn't removing 500 points of anything no matter what re-rolls (and now those re-rolls are gone).

I can't think of a 300 point meta unit this thing kills while there's a lot in the meta that will smoke it for around those points (Krast crusader, BA smash captain, a couple grav tanks, a couple tank commanders, aberrants, rock saws, morty, relic shock attack + anything, lord discos, chain lord, trip-tides, crusader, I'm sure some chaos knights can do it, haywire, grots, trip fire prisims...)

Gman buff my friend. Splitting the guns is also effective. T8 isn't ideal but it's going to do it's worst numbers obviously. Stormsurge though? Ideal. Custodes bikers? Rekt. Averages on rerolls it's not uncommon to hit and wound with everything on 3's. I know. It happens almost every game I run it. ESP if you are hitting on 2's.

Gman buffs your whole army. True it is an expensive buff. It was also the best way to run the levi.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 17:42:45


Post by: bort


What? The Leviathan was a good unit in a poor dex, no question, but it was not some majorly underpriced monster. It is about 60% of a Knight in both cost and what it does. If an opponent can drop a Knight it can take down a Leviathan. And the 24” range sucks on a unit that gets -1 to shots on the move. Heck, the Deredeo is a better shooter per point, better range, and still has an invulnerable. The Leviathan only stands out as the only durable unit pure marines had.

Yes, it gets better with the new rules as souping in a full Knight is more costly and the dread strat, but I still doubt it’s going to need some sort of major nerf. It’s like avoiding Rotate Ion, opponents can always shoot at other things in your list that are just as dangerous and not sporting an inv and strat reduction.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 17:45:48


Post by: Xenomancers


bort wrote:
What? The Leviathan was a good unit in a poor dex, no question, but it was not some majorly underpriced monster. It is about 60% of a Knight in both cost and what it does. If an opponent can drop a Knight it can take down a Leviathan. And the 24” range sucks on a unit that gets -1 to shots on the move. Heck, the Deredeo is a better shooter per point, better range, and still has an invulnerable. The Leviathan only stands out as the only durable unit pure marines had.

Yes, it gets better with the new rules as souping in a full Knight is more costly and the dread strat, but I still doubt it’s going to need some sort of major nerf. It’s like avoiding Rotate Ion, opponents can always shoot at other things in your list that are just as dangerous and not sporting an inv and strat reduction.
LOL no its not. 20 ap-2 autocannons hitting on 2's for 300 points is by far the best space marine shooting platform available - it's one of the best in the game I am sure. It's pretty undercosted. Compare it to supressors. You are getting more firepower per point and about 3x the durability. Suppressors aren't that poorly priced ether. I'm not saying it should be nerfed. It is basically getting a point reduction because it's range is so low. If it had 36" or 48" range it should probably be about 40 points more expensive.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 17:51:45


Post by: bort


No, they are seriously almost the same. The Leviathan is a bit better vs T7, the Deredeo vs T8. That’s not counting the HKs though. But my point still isn’t that the Leviathan isn’t a good unit, but that it’s no better than a couple other entries that Marines aren’t calling OP.
Edit: A twin las/twin auto cannon Venerable also does about the same per point vs heavy targets, but lacks the survivability.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:01:53


Post by: Ice_can


bort wrote:
No, they are seriously almost the same. The Leviathan is a bit better vs T7, the Deredeo vs T8. That’s not counting the HKs though. But my point still isn’t that the Leviathan isn’t a good unit, but that it’s no better than a couple other entries that Marines aren’t calling OP.
Edit: A twin las/twin auto cannon Venerable also does about the same per point vs heavy targets, but lacks the survivability.

Xeno at this point is trying to make everything so terribad that they return Gman to reroll all wounds.
He's wanting the codex to go back to it's old crappy mono build days.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:03:26


Post by: Martel732


The reroll all wounds buff was awful. It made costing units almost impossible. Let it die.

Just making gravis 3W is going to change my lists a lot, and BA don't even get all the goodies.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:16:29


Post by: Galef


Martel732 wrote:
...... and BA don't even get all the goodies.
Yet. But rest assured they certainly will eventually.
In fact, having a more standardized set of unit datasheet/profile for all Marines and then having unique Chapter Tactics/Strats/Relic/etc is the right way to move forward IMO. Let BA/DA/SW keep most (or all) of their unique units, but for everything shared, keep it in the make Marine Codex.

-


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:17:38


Post by: Xenomancers


bort wrote:
No, they are seriously almost the same. The Leviathan is a bit better vs T7, the Deredeo vs T8. That’s not counting the HKs though. But my point still isn’t that the Leviathan isn’t a good unit, but that it’s no better than a couple other entries that Marines aren’t calling OP.
Edit: A twin las/twin auto cannon Venerable also does about the same per point vs heavy targets, but lacks the survivability.

The versatility and durability alike are what make it so good.
It has t8 4++ with 14 wounds. Basically the best defensive profile you are getting short of a land raider achilles.
It's actually best at killing heavy infantry but with 20 shots it outperforms even dedicated anti vehicle. IDK...I get a lot of crap for bringing it mos thet time. Because it just deletes units...then again - so do riptides and broadsides and obliterators and yada yada yada.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:21:50


Post by: Martel732


 Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
...... and BA don't even get all the goodies.
Yet. But rest assured they certainly will eventually.
In fact, having a more standardized set of unit datasheet/profile for all Marines and then having unique Chapter Tactics/Strats/Relic/etc is the right way to move forward IMO. Let BA/DA/SW keep most (or all) of their unique units, but for everything shared, keep it in the make Marine Codex.

-


I'll try to resist temptation to proxy as a vanilla chapter. We'll have to see the exact nature of what happens next week.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:21:58


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
The reroll all wounds buff was awful. It made costing units almost impossible. Let it die.

Just making gravis 3W is going to change my lists a lot, and BA don't even get all the goodies.

It's dead. The is plenty of flat 3 wound stuff out there too. LOL. I spam it actually. My nids spam flat 3. So does my tau. Overall it's a good buff to agressors and cents too.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:34:33


Post by: Martel732


Flat 3 is way less common than flat 2. It just is.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:48:46


Post by: Sterling191


Point of hilarity:

The "build your own CT" that allows you to take a First Founding Chapter CT includes no requirement that you run that chapter as a successor to the CT that you select.

Want to run Iron Hands CT with the Smurf super-doctrine? Until they FAQ it you can, at the low price of not using named characters.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 18:52:21


Post by: bort


Seriously? Seems like that will be a pretty common pick until the rest of the chapters get released.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 19:03:55


Post by: Xenomancers


Sterling191 wrote:
Point of hilarity:

The "build your own CT" that allows you to take a First Founding Chapter CT includes no requirement that you run that chapter as a successor to the CT that you select.

Want to run Iron Hands CT with the Smurf super-doctrine? Until they FAQ it you can, at the low price of not using named characters.


Pretty sure the super doctrines are only available to the actual first founding chapter. There is no advantage to being a second founding.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 19:06:03


Post by: Crimson


 Xenomancers wrote:

Pretty sure the super doctrines are only available to the actual first founding chapter.

Nope.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 19:07:53


Post by: Sterling191


 Xenomancers wrote:

Pretty sure the super doctrines are only available to the actual first founding chapter. There is no advantage to being a second founding.


Incorrect. Successor Chapters get to count <CHAPTER> as <ULTRAMARINES> or <WHITE SCARS> etc., for the purposes of strategems, powers and super doctrines so long as the army is comprised purely that chapter plus or minus the associated first founding chapter. They cant take any named characters, and cannot freely take relics of the founding chapter (but there is a strat to get around the latter restriction).


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 19:21:14


Post by: bort


If successors didn’t get super doctrines at all they would be at a huge disadvantage.

...I guess I can see why they could be allowed anyone’s super doctrines though. Without some sort of flex pick as a successor you’re giving up named chars and the page of chapter specific relics for nothing. That’s pretty dumb for just a painting decision. The flaw is that the tactics and super doctrines are not all equally balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of successor builds, what do you think of doing something like the +3” range, the +1” advance and charge, the UM doctrine, and a bunch of Aggressors? Turn 1 they have a 26”+d6” threat range at -1 while moving up and from turn 2 on they’ll get to shoot twice and decent odds of charging after if desired. No need to get vehicles for movement with that. Flamer Aggressors would be even crazier, but still prob too slow.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 20:51:56


Post by: tksolway


bort wrote:
That’s not counting the HKs though.


Does anyone? :-)


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 22:23:40


Post by: Xenomancers


bort wrote:
If successors didn’t get super doctrines at all they would be at a huge disadvantage.

...I guess I can see why they could be allowed anyone’s super doctrines though. Without some sort of flex pick as a successor you’re giving up named chars and the page of chapter specific relics for nothing. That’s pretty dumb for just a painting decision. The flaw is that the tactics and super doctrines are not all equally balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of successor builds, what do you think of doing something like the +3” range, the +1” advance and charge, the UM doctrine, and a bunch of Aggressors? Turn 1 they have a 26”+d6” threat range at -1 while moving up and from turn 2 on they’ll get to shoot twice and decent odds of charging after if desired. No need to get vehicles for movement with that. Flamer Aggressors would be even crazier, but still prob too slow.
Heck if I can be an ironhands successor with ultrmarines superdocs we might actually be getting somehere. It's obviously not allowed but whatever.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/13 21:13:07


Post by: Rogerio134134


With the big points drop on Phobos captains I will be taking one in my new list. His bolt gun is actually not too bad and has some other nice tricks that a normal captain doesn't


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 01:18:15


Post by: BrianDavion


the first founding traits are avaliable only to the first founding chapters and those whom are sucessor chapters close eneugh to their parent chapter. so yeah no "iron hands with ultramarines special"


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 0047/08/14 01:24:01


Post by: Sterling191


BrianDavion wrote:
the first founding traits are avaliable only to the first founding chapters and those whom are sucessor chapters close eneugh to their parent chapter. so yeah no "iron hands with ultramarines special"


Incorrect. There is no such stipulation currently attached to Inheritors of the Primarch


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 01:39:32


Post by: casvalremdeikun


So in regard to Eliminators, it seems like you can pick whichever weapon for the Sergeant. It seems like that might help reduce the cost of the Las Fusil Squads. Take a Bolt Sniper Rifle(3 pts) or Instigator Bolt Carbine (5 pts) to drive the costs down while still maintaining unit effectiveness. It seems like an even better option for the Las Fusils since you can used Guided Aim so those shots hit even better and wound better.

I dunno, one other thing I was thinking is that Guided Aim on a full Bolt Sniper Rifle squad would be pretty decent since that +1 to Wound would make things wound on 4s against T6-T9, which isn't half bad. Those +1 to Wound makes the Mortal Wound Effect go off on 5s too. This, in addition to being the cheapest option helps.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 01:41:03


Post by: JNAProductions


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So in regard to Eliminators, it seems like you can pick whichever weapon for the Sergeant. It seems like that might help reduce the cost of the Las Fusil Squads. Take a Bolt Sniper Rifle(3 pts) or Instigator Bolt Carbine (5 pts) to drive the costs down while still maintaining unit effectiveness. It seems like an even better option for the Las Fusils since you can used Guided Aim so those shots hit even better and wound better.

I dunno, one other thing I was thinking is that Guided Aim on a full Bolt Sniper Rifle squad would be pretty decent since that +1 to Wound would make things wound on 4s against T6-T9, which isn't half bad. Those +1 to Wound makes the Mortal Wound Effect go off on 5s too. This, in addition to being the cheapest option helps.
I ran the math, and +1 to-Hit/+1 to-Wound is virtually ALWAYS better than getting the full shots, with the snipers, at least.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 02:43:03


Post by: BrianDavion


Sterling191 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the first founding traits are avaliable only to the first founding chapters and those whom are sucessor chapters close eneugh to their parent chapter. so yeah no "iron hands with ultramarines special"


Incorrect. There is no such stipulation currently attached to Inheritors of the Primarch


I garentee you're not able to select iron hands and then benifit from the rules for being an ultramarines sucessor.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 02:43:52


Post by: Azuza001


So the triple predator / triple vindicator strats are gone from the new codex (awww, but I get it) but vindicators got a boost up to d6 shots always now. Thats 125 pts still for d6 str 10 ap-3 d6 dmg attacks, i think i am ok with this change. Anyone else think vindicators could have a home in their lists with this change?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 03:34:16


Post by: BrianDavion


I belive they're cheap eneugh to def be worth considering. they're not gonna be perfect but definatly something not worth ignoring


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 03:49:41


Post by: casvalremdeikun


The change in their shots definitely helps single or double Vindicators while also not making triples necessary to get anything done.

Also, now, if I shoot a squad of six or more things, my Vindicator will hit on 2s due to Crimson Fists. A decent way to vaporize a group of dudes. I am interested to see how the Imperial Fists(or if they have one, Crimson Fists) Combat Doctrine works. Vindicators are a core unit for IF, so maybe they will get a boost. Honestly, I would love to see something affecting shot numbers or damage numbers.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 04:33:44


Post by: BrianDavion


I'd guess the IF doctrine will apply while the devestator doctrine is up. if they really wanted to make IF disgusting it'd be "all heavy weapons while in devestator doctrine deal +1 DMG"


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 04:40:27


Post by: casvalremdeikun


BrianDavion wrote:
I'd guess the IF doctrine will apply while the devestator doctrine is up. if they really wanted to make IF disgusting it'd be "all heavy weapons while in devestator doctrine deal +1 DMG"
That would be nuts combined with things like Heavy Bolters, Grab Cannons, and whatnot. Even things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers would become more reliable. And Eliminators would be NUTS, especially when combined with Guided Aim.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 04:45:12


Post by: Crazyterran


Maybe 6s to Hit with bolt weapons while Devastator Doctrine is up deal an additional mortal wound for IFs?

I'd like to think the Devastator Doctrine ones will be a little more tame than Tactical or Assault ones, to be honest.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 04:48:17


Post by: casvalremdeikun


 Crazyterran wrote:
Maybe 6s to Hit with bolt weapons while Devastator Doctrine is up deal an additional mortal wound for IFs?

I'd like to think the Devastator Doctrine ones will be a little more tame than Tactical or Assault ones, to be honest.
Considering that the Assault Doctrine for White Scars is not remotely as good as the Tactical Doctrine for Ultramarines, I say GW probably hasn't factored in the sequencing for the Doctrines whatsoever.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 05:00:52


Post by: BrianDavion


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Maybe 6s to Hit with bolt weapons while Devastator Doctrine is up deal an additional mortal wound for IFs?

I'd like to think the Devastator Doctrine ones will be a little more tame than Tactical or Assault ones, to be honest.
Considering that the Assault Doctrine for White Scars is not remotely as good as the Tactical Doctrine for Ultramarines, I say GW probably hasn't factored in the sequencing for the Doctrines whatsoever.


I think white scars is envisioned as a hit and run melee chapter, and the various WS rules factor into that nicely. I think white scars will be extremely powerful if used right.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 05:13:58


Post by: bort


There's no way in heck they'd give all heavies +1dmg. Everyone would call that one OP with good reason.

I assume someone will get the ability to move their heavies without -1 to hit, though that doesn't seem like one for IF.

Wound on a 6 granting a mortal maybe? Though even that seems pretty good. Hard to know when the UM one seems awesome and an extra wound on a 6 seems in line and then compare to the White Scars and then I feel like I need to guess weaker.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 05:19:58


Post by: casvalremdeikun


BrianDavion wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Maybe 6s to Hit with bolt weapons while Devastator Doctrine is up deal an additional mortal wound for IFs?

I'd like to think the Devastator Doctrine ones will be a little more tame than Tactical or Assault ones, to be honest.
Considering that the Assault Doctrine for White Scars is not remotely as good as the Tactical Doctrine for Ultramarines, I say GW probably hasn't factored in the sequencing for the Doctrines whatsoever.


I think white scars is envisioned as a hit and run melee chapter, and the various WS rules factor into that nicely. I think white scars will be extremely powerful if used right.
Considering it can't trigger until Turn 3 at the absolute earliest, it is trash compared to the Ultramarine one, which boosts any weapon or unit that gets a bonus or penalty based on movement.

A bonus to damage for a specific weapon type would be on par with the UM Doctrine, if a little tamer. I don't think people factor in just how much versatility the UM doctrine provides.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 05:23:36


Post by: Lemondish


bort wrote:
If successors didn’t get super doctrines at all they would be at a huge disadvantage.

...I guess I can see why they could be allowed anyone’s super doctrines though. Without some sort of flex pick as a successor you’re giving up named chars and the page of chapter specific relics for nothing. That’s pretty dumb for just a painting decision. The flaw is that the tactics and super doctrines are not all equally balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of successor builds, what do you think of doing something like the +3” range, the +1” advance and charge, the UM doctrine, and a bunch of Aggressors? Turn 1 they have a 26”+d6” threat range at -1 while moving up and from turn 2 on they’ll get to shoot twice and decent odds of charging after if desired. No need to get vehicles for movement with that. Flamer Aggressors would be even crazier, but still prob too slow.


By Ultramarine doctrine you mean Scions? Doesn't work - can't advance and benefit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the first founding traits are avaliable only to the first founding chapters and those whom are sucessor chapters close eneugh to their parent chapter. so yeah no "iron hands with ultramarines special"


Incorrect. There is no such stipulation currently attached to Inheritors of the Primarch


However, the supplements do state that if you use Inheritors of the Primarch on your successor, you're automatically considered a successor of that Parent chapter.

So sure, you can be an "Ultramarine" Iron Hands chapter, but for rules purposes that's really only head cannon.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 05:55:59


Post by: bort


Sorry, I don't recall the names. If you meant the count as standing still yes, I was thinking advance turn 1, you're still in Dev Doctrine anyways, then turn 2 onwards move and not advance.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 13:54:53


Post by: Xenomancers


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Maybe 6s to Hit with bolt weapons while Devastator Doctrine is up deal an additional mortal wound for IFs?

I'd like to think the Devastator Doctrine ones will be a little more tame than Tactical or Assault ones, to be honest.
Considering that the Assault Doctrine for White Scars is not remotely as good as the Tactical Doctrine for Ultramarines, I say GW probably hasn't factored in the sequencing for the Doctrines whatsoever.


I think white scars is envisioned as a hit and run melee chapter, and the various WS rules factor into that nicely. I think white scars will be extremely powerful if used right.
Considering it can't trigger until Turn 3 at the absolute earliest, it is trash compared to the Ultramarine one, which boosts any weapon or unit that gets a bonus or penalty based on movement.

A bonus to damage for a specific weapon type would be on par with the UM Doctrine, if a little tamer. I don't think people factor in just how much versatility the UM doctrine provides.

I'm pretty down on a lot of changes but this one is actually encouraging for ultramarines. Heavies get bonus all game (ether AP or move pentalities) and rapid fire and assault get bonus after turn 2. It will certainly be more fun to be able to move with units without sacrificing firepower.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 14:44:43


Post by: tneva82


 Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
...... and BA don't even get all the goodies.
Yet. But rest assured they certainly will eventually.
In fact, having a more standardized set of unit datasheet/profile for all Marines and then having unique Chapter Tactics/Strats/Relic/etc is the right way to move forward IMO. Let BA/DA/SW keep most (or all) of their unique units, but for everything shared, keep it in the make Marine Codex.

-


We already know units ba get. That plus new angels of death. Doctrine thing is what they don'' get at least for now


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 14:46:16


Post by: Xenomancers


You really think BA are gonna give up guard battalions to get some ap on their shooting attacks? Nope.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 14:48:52


Post by: buddha


So anyone liking suppressors now? Points drop means a basic squad is only 84 points. Devastator doctrine means a decent fire support unit T1.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 14:53:41


Post by: Xenomancers


Rogerio134134 wrote:
With the big points drop on Phobos captains I will be taking one in my new list. His bolt gun is actually not too bad and has some other nice tricks that a normal captain doesn't
He is totally garbage actually. A captain with 0 melee ability and 1 shot? I use him as counts as telion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 buddha wrote:
So anyone liking suppressors now? Points drop means a basic squad is only 84 points. Devastator doctrine means a decent fire support unit T1.
That is a big points drop - are you certain?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 15:08:05


Post by: buddha


Think I did the math wrong as I forgot the mandatory grav chutes. Still comes to 90pts though and the question stands.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 15:11:13


Post by: Xenomancers


 buddha wrote:
Think I did the math wrong as I forgot the mandatory grav chutes. Still comes to 90pts though and the question stands.
That is still about a 20 point drop per unit. Yeah - that will make them a lot more popular. They were already really good. For ultramarines they are a must include IMO.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 15:15:28


Post by: Martel732


 Xenomancers wrote:
You really think BA are gonna give up guard battalions to get some ap on their shooting attacks? Nope.


I might. I hate the guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 buddha wrote:
So anyone liking suppressors now? Points drop means a basic squad is only 84 points. Devastator doctrine means a decent fire support unit T1.


I liked them before.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 18:32:52


Post by: godardc


I was looking for something: someone told (here or in the rumors thread) with a screenshot of the rules as proof, that the models couldn't move after a disembarkment including the impulsor ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 18:37:26


Post by: Martel732


They can move, but not assault. Handy for autobolter dudes or something similar. Hellblasters.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 18:39:06


Post by: Sterling191


 godardc wrote:
I was looking for something: someone told (here or in the rumors thread) with a screenshot of the rules as proof, that the models couldn't move after a disembarkment including the impulsor ?


In one of the other threads someone was attempting to twist the FAQ ruling that units with heavy weapons in open-topped units that moved still took the penalty to hit for having moved to mean that one couldnt move after disembarking from the Impulsor. The disembarkation rules from the BRB explicitly state that a disembarking unit can move and act normally after getting out of a transport.

In short, barring a specific future FAQ saying they can't, you can move after hopping out of an Impulsor.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 18:40:31


Post by: Martel732


Absurd interpretations are to be ignored.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:13:31


Post by: godardc


In France they are talking about putting a librarian in an impulsor, moving it, disembarking, moving and then casting null zone, in order to take down knights as far as about 29 " IIRC
That's why I was looking for this interpretation but thanks for clarifying it !


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:15:25


Post by: Martel732


Gotta roll that 8+. CSM are still way better at it.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:16:09


Post by: Sterling191


 godardc wrote:
In France they are talking about putting a librarian in an impulsor, moving it, disembarking, moving and then casting null zone, in order to take down knights as far as about 29 " IIRC
That's why I was looking for this interpretation but thanks for clarifying it !


Suicide null zoning is hardly new. The last gimmick was using a phobos libby and warptiming in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Gotta roll that 8+. CSM are still way better at it.


Its a 7 now.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:18:02


Post by: Martel732


OOOHHH. I see. Still inferior because of range, but better for sure.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:20:32


Post by: godardc


Sterling191 wrote:
 godardc wrote:
In France they are talking about putting a librarian in an impulsor, moving it, disembarking, moving and then casting null zone, in order to take down knights as far as about 29 " IIRC
That's why I was looking for this interpretation but thanks for clarifying it !


Suicide null zoning is hardly new. The last gimmick was using a phobos libby and warptiming in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Gotta roll that 8+. CSM are still way better at it.


Its a 7 now.


Isn't warp time a Chaos thing ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:21:15


Post by: Martel732


They have a warp time equivalent. I still feel like a Krast crusader will even enough bubble wrap to stop this. Maybe its good vs the chaos IKs.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:21:45


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
They have a warp time equivalent.

Except they can't charge after and has to be used on phobo unit.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:22:24


Post by: Martel732


 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They have a warp time equivalent.

Except they can't charge after and has to be used on phobo unit.


Rough equivalent.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:23:32


Post by: Sterling191


 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They have a warp time equivalent.

Except they can't charge after and has to be used on phobo unit.


Which is entirely irrelevant when you're using it as a Null Zone vector.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:25:43


Post by: Xenomancers


Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They have a warp time equivalent.

Except they can't charge after and has to be used on phobo unit.


Which is entirely irrelevant when you're using it as a Null Zone vector.

How is it irrelevant you cant charge on your suicide run? The phobo requirement requires you to take a relic to use the combo to. It is totally relevant. The cost is too high.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:31:03


Post by: Sterling191


 Xenomancers wrote:

How is it irrelevant you cant charge on your suicide run? The phobo requirement requires you to take a relic to use the combo to. It is totally relevant. The cost is too high.


Because the point isnt to charge the target and get stomped to pieces in melee. Its to get close enough, and position correctly, so that you negate the invuln without compromising your incoming fire.

Also nice move of the goalpoasts there.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:31:49


Post by: Martel732


I was getting confused there myself. Charging doesn't matter for a null zone run.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:35:23


Post by: Sterling191


Martel732 wrote:
I was getting confused there myself. Charging doesn't matter for a null zone run.


Its a tactic that doesnt involve huddling around Rowboat. Its understandable that Xeno doesnt comprehend it.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:39:46


Post by: Martel732


Query; is it worth suiciding a libby now that IKs can't get past 4++? I guess for a crazy Chaos IK it is.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 11204/01/13 03:30:12


Post by: Sterling191


Martel732 wrote:
Query; is it worth suiciding a libby now that IKs can't get past 4++? I guess for a crazy Chaos IK it is.


Depends on the circumstance, and its not just Knights that make excellent null targets. Do it right and you can absolutely massacre a Deathwatch, Demon or Custodes player.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:45:24


Post by: Martel732


Esp the big demons. It's depressing how little taking away the 5++ hurts PB.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:52:26


Post by: godardc


Now it's easy to cast I may try it. 8 was so difficult to pass


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:53:22


Post by: buddha


Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Query; is it worth suiciding a libby now that IKs can't get past 4++? I guess for a crazy Chaos IK it is.


Depends on the circumstance, and its not just Knights that make excellent null targets. Do it right and you can absolutely massacre a Deathwatch, Demon or Custodes player.


I'm wondering if a impulsor with a Libby and a 5 man veteran intercessor squad might be a good combo. Roll up, cast bull zone, then fire away.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:53:23


Post by: Martel732


7+ is still a gamble, but a MUCH better one. I fail quickening a lot with Mephy, though. I think 7+ is fair for a such a power. The 6" range is a ballbuster though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:53:31


Post by: Kanluwen


 buddha wrote:
So anyone liking suppressors now? Points drop means a basic squad is only 84 points. Devastator doctrine means a decent fire support unit T1.

Have liked them since the outset. Between Suppressors and Reivers, we can shut down Overwatch hard if we want to.

I fielded Shrike and Vanguard alongside of both and man, it can get nasty on big blobs of infantry.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 19:54:15


Post by: Martel732


 buddha wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Query; is it worth suiciding a libby now that IKs can't get past 4++? I guess for a crazy Chaos IK it is.


Depends on the circumstance, and its not just Knights that make excellent null targets. Do it right and you can absolutely massacre a Deathwatch, Demon or Custodes player.


I'm wondering if a impulsor with a Libby and a 5 man veteran intercessor squad might be a good combo. Roll up, cast bull zone, then fire away.


Probably not terrible. Might even use hellblasters, since that goes well with killing invulns.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/14 20:40:31


Post by: Apple Peel


Sterling191 wrote:
 godardc wrote:
I was looking for something: someone told (here or in the rumors thread) with a screenshot of the rules as proof, that the models couldn't move after a disembarkment including the impulsor ?


In one of the other threads someone was attempting to twist the FAQ ruling that units with heavy weapons in open-topped units that moved still took the penalty to hit for having moved to mean that one couldnt move after disembarking from the Impulsor. The disembarkation rules from the BRB explicitly state that a disembarking unit can move and act normally after getting out of a transport.

In short, barring a specific future FAQ saying they can't, you can move after hopping out of an Impulsor.

Don’t be surprised if it gets the Valkyrie treatment.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 03:52:50


Post by: Azuza001


Even if you cant (which would be silly) the deployment from the new vehicle is quite interesting. There are a lot of combos that it can give that makes for some nasty t1 tricks.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 04:01:31


Post by: Vilehydra


I've been using a JP librarian with armor indomitus. I seriously recommend people try it if they're looking for ways to get nullzone in on the list. I give mine a combi-melta (salamanders, so others may want to use something else). With good positioning and deployment he's in position on turn 2, MoH and cover can make him very difficult to remove.

He's just a versatile model, especially in ITC match-ups. Acts as a minor beatstick, a buff-debuff unit, and a semi-sniper by being able to move over screens. I've never had a game where it didn't make back its value.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 07:15:14


Post by: Rogerio134134


Anyone know if the new Comms array thing for infiltrators which lets them use the Phobos captain and Lt bonuses is free ??


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 07:18:36


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Rogerio134134 wrote:
Anyone know if the new Comms array thing for infiltrators which lets them use the Phobos captain and Lt bonuses is free ??
10 pts.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 07:37:16


Post by: BrianDavion


which is proably worth it for a squad or two.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 07:46:54


Post by: casvalremdeikun


BrianDavion wrote:
which is proably worth it for a squad or two.
I don't know why they didn't just make it another special Marine like the Helix Adept. But it looks more like it is a squad upgrade rather than an upgrade to a Marine.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 07:50:17


Post by: Rogerio134134


I think that's a good deal it allows you to split your forces. Thinking of having a squad of 10 then combat squadding them and having both 5 man squad deploy out of my deployment zone near an objective in cover and just sit there harassing the enemy and holding an objective forcing them to divert attention to the mini castle.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 10:56:18


Post by: Crimson


Rogerio134134 wrote:
I think that's a good deal it allows you to split your forces. Thinking of having a squad of 10 then combat squadding them and having both 5 man squad deploy out of my deployment zone near an objective in cover and just sit there harassing the enemy and holding an objective forcing them to divert attention to the mini castle.


If you combat squad them, then only the half with the comms array benefits. Also, it specifically only works with Phobos Captain and Liutenant, and those are crappy.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 12:56:16


Post by: Rogerio134134


You may be right...I just want to use my infiltrators! :(


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 13:03:32


Post by: Crimson


Rogerio134134 wrote:
You may be right...I just want to use my infiltrators! :(

Yeah, me too. I really don't think they need the aura though. They have dinky bolters, they don't do much damage anyway. Their main job is to stop deep strikers and contest objectives.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 13:22:57


Post by: Rogerio134134


True dude yeah, I'm definitely having a squad of 5 in my list because I've painted 10 of them and I love the models.

They definitely seem like a tactical unit like you say rather than a battle line unit like intercessors.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 18:27:17


Post by: Xirax


Btw, now browsing these combo ideas and people thinking of using the chaplain's +2 charge from the drop pod.. doesn't the chaplain's aura abilities come into effect at the start of the round so you can't use the drop podding chaplain's aura on the turn of arrival? Or have I missed something?

I'm so eager to find use for my three painted drop pods. So far sternguard feel the best or grav devs, but atleast sternguard would benefit coming on T2 with tactical doctrine active.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 18:29:02


Post by: Sterling191


Xirax wrote:
Btw, now browsing these combo ideas and people thinking of using the chaplain's +2 charge from the drop pod.. doesn't the chaplain's aura abilities come into effect at the start of the round so you can't use the drop podding chaplain's aura on the turn of arrival? Or have I missed something?


You can use it, but he cant be in the pod. Jump/Bike Chappys are gonna be the way to go if youre wanting to slingshot stuff out of pods.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 20:35:58


Post by: Kdash


Sterling191 wrote:
Xirax wrote:
Btw, now browsing these combo ideas and people thinking of using the chaplain's +2 charge from the drop pod.. doesn't the chaplain's aura abilities come into effect at the start of the round so you can't use the drop podding chaplain's aura on the turn of arrival? Or have I missed something?


You can use it, but he cant be in the pod. Jump/Bike Chappys are gonna be the way to go if youre wanting to slingshot stuff out of pods.


Yeah this. You might see more JP Chaplains on the field now as they can cast it turn 2 and still affect deep striking units.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 21:27:23


Post by: Azuza001


Jp chaplin jumping up the field t1 to get within range for the big t1 drop pod drops. He should be able to get to where the pods drop t1 with and advance. Bike Chaplin is a different thing, if its using the index data sheet i don't see how it would get the new rules, just the new point costs that would apply (weapon costs and stuff).


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 21:52:35


Post by: Mandragola


I’m looking at how best to make use of my chapter tactics for Crimson Fists. The best units are arguably going to be the small ones - especially vehicles as they are units of 1.

The most improved unit might actually be assault centurions. They’ve had an enormous price drop while gaining a wound, an attack and angels of death. Their storm raven transport now gets CTs and even more dakka from the hurricane bolters. Even three of them can do 13 S10 attacks hitting on 3s and doing 3 damage. Plus of course they’ve got pretty absurd amounts of dakka with the hurricane bolters and flamers. That unit costs 156 points.

Stalker bolters might also be good. The strat to shoot as sniper rifles could be very interesting if I also use the crimso fist strat to get +1 to wound characters. They could actually fish pretty effectively for mortal wounds on things like Pask and Knights, while also scoring normal wounds on a 5+ with -3ap. If they see actual infantry characters, or even things like jetbike custodes guys, they could be in serious trouble.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 22:00:01


Post by: Azuza001


Vehicles count as 5 models for the crimson fist chapter tactic.

As for the best units, minimum sizes and 3 man teams will be best. Agressors, centurians, suppressors, all those neat special primaris units work great.

Also veteran squads as they start as a squad size of 2.

3 man bike teams or the single attack bike gets an honerable mention as well.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 1970/12/22 00:00:00


Post by: Mandragola


Oh yes, I forgot about vehicles counting as five. That makes Crimson Fists a little worse as a mech force. Those three man teams will be good though.

In reality there probably isn’t that much difference between three and five man Crimson fist squads, as it only matters if there are eight or nine models in the target unit. That could apply for things like infantry squads with a heavy weapon, but not too much else.

I can actually see myself taking ten man intercessor squads. I like intercessors lots and have used them even with the (not all that) old version of the tactics. They now only need 15 models in their target unit to get the bonus, rather than 20, so they’re significantly improved. And it’s good value to use the rapid fire strat on them.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 23:15:13


Post by: BrianDavion


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
which is proably worth it for a squad or two.
I don't know why they didn't just make it another special Marine like the Helix Adept. But it looks more like it is a squad upgrade rather than an upgrade to a Marine.


so does that mean you can have it with a helix adept?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 23:17:40


Post by: Xenomancers


BrianDavion wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
which is proably worth it for a squad or two.
I don't know why they didn't just make it another special Marine like the Helix Adept. But it looks more like it is a squad upgrade rather than an upgrade to a Marine.


so does that mean you can have it with a helix adept?

Yes but at that point you might as well just take a repuslor executioner - you are about 70% of the way.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 23:18:16


Post by: Crimson


BrianDavion wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
which is proably worth it for a squad or two.
I don't know why they didn't just make it another special Marine like the Helix Adept. But it looks more like it is a squad upgrade rather than an upgrade to a Marine.

so does that mean you can have it with a helix adept?

No. It is either the medic or the comms guy. You can't have both.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 23:23:06


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
I was getting confused there myself. Charging doesn't matter for a null zone run.
Why are you confused? It is a suicide run. Libbies have a force staff. You could easily put out a little extrea damage and you are going to be utilizing the null zone for a shooting attack 99% of the time. It would be great to charge a vheical that hits on 6's and cant fall back and shoot put some damage out. It's nitpicky but it is relevant. Worth noting that with warp time you can do what I was suggesting - get in range to cast death hex and then charge after.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/15 23:29:46


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


 Crimson wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
You may be right...I just want to use my infiltrators! :(

Yeah, me too. I really don't think they need the aura though. They have dinky bolters, they don't do much damage anyway. Their main job is to stop deep strikers and contest objectives.


There's some pretty nice relic bolters now. Do we know if the Phobos Lt or Captain has the right weapon type to use any of them?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/12/12 00:22:26


Post by: Crimson


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
You may be right...I just want to use my infiltrators! :(

Yeah, me too. I really don't think they need the aura though. They have dinky bolters, they don't do much damage anyway. Their main job is to stop deep strikers and contest objectives.

There's some pretty nice relic bolters now. Do we know if the Phobos Lt or Captain has the right weapon type to use any of them?

No they don't, at least not for the main codex ones. I'm not sure about supplements. Meanwhile there are two relic bolters normal Primaris Captain and Lieutenant can take and of course they can have melee weapons. Unfortunately the Phobos guys are stuck with crap gear. Granted, the bolter the Captain has is not terrible, in melee he would die of embarrassment though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 00:13:29


Post by: casvalremdeikun


BrianDavion wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
which is proably worth it for a squad or two.
I don't know why they didn't just make it another special Marine like the Helix Adept. But it looks more like it is a squad upgrade rather than an upgrade to a Marine.


so does that mean you can have it with a helix adept?
No. The datasheet prevents it. I still don't understand, that since the Comms Array is a squad upgrade, what happens to it when you combat squad the unit.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 00:23:11


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


 Crimson wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
You may be right...I just want to use my infiltrators! :(

Yeah, me too. I really don't think they need the aura though. They have dinky bolters, they don't do much damage anyway. Their main job is to stop deep strikers and contest objectives.

There's some pretty nice relic bolters now. Do we know if the Phobos Lt or Captain has the right weapon type to use any of them?

No they don't, at least not for the main codex ones. I'm not sure about supplements. Meanwhile there are two relic bolters normal Primaris Captain and Lieutenant can take and of course they can have melee weapons. Unfortunately the Phobos guys are stuck with crap gear. Granted, the bolter the Captain has is not terrible, in melee he would die of embarrassment though.


And its confirmed that the wargear of the phobos HQs hasn't changed in the codex either? That's a real shame if so. I had assumed that their lack of weapons was for internal balance in Shadowspear and they'd get proper weapons on a full release.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 00:44:03


Post by: Crimson


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
No. The datasheet prevents it. I still don't understand, that since the Comms Array is a squad upgrade, what happens to it when you combat squad the unit.

It's an item you give to one guy. If you combat squad then it affects the half you put that guy in. Why the comms guy and the medic can't get along I don't know. Seems silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

And its confirmed that the wargear of the phobos HQs hasn't changed in the codex either? That's a real shame if so. I had assumed that their lack of weapons was for internal balance in Shadowspear and they'd get proper weapons on a full release.

No new gear, except the lieutenant can exchange all his gear for Reiver knife, pistol and mask. And that includes giving up the grav chute. Yes, he is a melee character without a proper melee weapon that cannot deepstrike along with the Reivers. He is completely and utterly pointless.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 00:57:26


Post by: casvalremdeikun


 Crimson wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
No. The datasheet prevents it. I still don't understand, that since the Comms Array is a squad upgrade, what happens to it when you combat squad the unit.

It's an item you give to one guy. If you combat squad then it affects the half you put that guy in. Why the comms guy and the medic can't get along I don't know. Seems silly.
I don't understand why one is a separate model type, but the other isn't. It seems like they could have just had it be you can give one model a Comms Array or a Reductor.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 03:04:58


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Crimson wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
No. The datasheet prevents it. I still don't understand, that since the Comms Array is a squad upgrade, what happens to it when you combat squad the unit.

It's an item you give to one guy. If you combat squad then it affects the half you put that guy in. Why the comms guy and the medic can't get along I don't know. Seems silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

And its confirmed that the wargear of the phobos HQs hasn't changed in the codex either? That's a real shame if so. I had assumed that their lack of weapons was for internal balance in Shadowspear and they'd get proper weapons on a full release.

No new gear, except the lieutenant can exchange all his gear for Reiver knife, pistol and mask. And that includes giving up the grav chute. Yes, he is a melee character without a proper melee weapon that cannot deepstrike along with the Reivers. He is completely and utterly pointless.

Wait for Ishy or someone else to come in and defend the Reiver Lt hahahaha

I.m definitely gonna use my Minotaurs as a White Scars successor. The tables seem okay for Traits and Powers and the Strats seen solid. Not sure what Trait to give Asterion yet, but his reroll charges goes well with the trait.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 03:16:11


Post by: BrianDavion


the Phobos Leuienant can if he's Ultramarine take the soldier's Blade IIRC. if thats the case he actually becomes good.

the reiver varient though is absolutely slowed I agree.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2020/01/22 04:36:52


Post by: Mandragola


The soldier’s blade replaces a combat knife - which is what reivers carry. I think the reiver version might be the guy who has one, and maybe the Phobos captain, rather than the Phobos lieutenant - not sure. In any case it’s Smurf-only.

Actually if you’re going to have a lieutenant to stand around giving a reroll 1s aura then a reiver isn’t a terrible choice. As a Phobos character, he gives you access to the Phobos warlord traits (possibly via a strat most of the time) including the game-changingly-good one that lets you reposition units. The cost is similar to the generic guy and his mask and grenades do have an effect. You can still give him stuff like the relic of gathalmor(sp?) if you want. I can potentially see myself sticking a reiver to a 40mm base to represent one of these guys, if using stuff like infiltrators or the new guys.

You could take the guy with the grav chute and gun but you’d have to pay 2 points and you lose the reiver toys. His shooting is better but nothing to write home about.

It remains spectacularly stupid that the two Phobos lieutenants have their backpacks the wrong way round relative to the troops they’re supposed to be like, but whatever. GW. have apparently decided to chain themselves to exact model representation, in an attempt to kill creativity and give us all armies made up of exactly the same guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way I don’t think the Phobos librarian can do the warp time null zone thing any more. The book relic has been changed and now gives one extra spell from an existing discipline instead - not automatically the librarius discipline.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 05:59:48


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Ultramarines supplement has a Strat I think that lets you reposition units, so you don't need a Warlord trait for that.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 07:10:22


Post by: BrianDavion


sounds like the UM suppplement has a rediculasly flexable tactical toolkit then


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 11:24:47


Post by: Crimson


Mandragola wrote:
The soldier’s blade replaces a combat knife - which is what reivers carry. I think the reiver version might be the guy who has one, and maybe the Phobos captain, rather than the Phobos lieutenant - not sure. In any case it’s Smurf-only.

Yeah, the lieutenant with chutes cannot have it, as he has even more useless paired knives.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 12:59:58


Post by: Azuza001


Ultramarines are funny now. They can redeploy like eldar with a strat, overwatch like tau with the greater good strat, fall back then shoot then charge like white scars with a strat, yeah.... they are definitely a toolbox army now lol.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 1220/01/17 08:01:41


Post by: tksolway


Mandragola wrote:

The most improved unit might actually be assault centurions. They’ve had an enormous price drop while gaining a wound, an attack and angels of death. Their storm raven transport now gets CTs and even more dakka from the hurricane bolters. Even three of them can do 13 S10 attacks hitting on 3s and doing 3 damage. Plus of course they’ve got pretty absurd amounts of dakka with the hurricane bolters and flamers. That unit costs 156 points.


Points wise, sure they look usable now. They still move 4" though. If you miss out on that first charge roll, you'll never get them into combat.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 15:06:50


Post by: footfoe


Rogerio134134 wrote:
You may be right...I just want to use my infiltrators! :(


seems hard to justify still.
are they still 22 points each in the new codex? Cost 5 more points than intercessors, and have a weaker gun. They're so ineffective that your opponent won't need to deep strike.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 15:11:47


Post by: Crimson


Still 22 points. It's a bit crazy. The Incursors are only 19 points, and seem to be better every way except lacking the anti DS bubble. I really like the look of these units so I wish they were good.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 16:10:22


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


tksolway wrote:
Mandragola wrote:

The most improved unit might actually be assault centurions. They’ve had an enormous price drop while gaining a wound, an attack and angels of death. Their storm raven transport now gets CTs and even more dakka from the hurricane bolters. Even three of them can do 13 S10 attacks hitting on 3s and doing 3 damage. Plus of course they’ve got pretty absurd amounts of dakka with the hurricane bolters and flamers. That unit costs 156 points.


Points wise, sure they look usable now. They still move 4" though. If you miss out on that first charge roll, you'll never get them into combat.

You'll want Black Templars and White Scars.

White Scars apparently have a Stratagem where you can disembark after your transport moves. That's pretty good.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 16:15:00


Post by: Mandragola


Incursors seem pretty good to me. It’s them I’m thinking of combining with the reiver lieutenant and the repositioning warlord trait. They ought to be able to tie up loads of stuff, and are perfectly good fighters for their price.

These things that give you an extra hit on a 6+, like the Fists trait and incursors blades, in effect make you 25% more killy. For every four hits you would have got (on a 3+) you instead get 5. It’s not as good as another attack but it’s a step in the right direction.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 16:19:17


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Also we got the update today for the Index and FW. Just makes you add the rules. So rejoice everyone and screw Martel.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 17:00:31


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also we got the update today for the Index and FW. Just makes you add the rules. So rejoice everyone and screw Martel.
No update to the Index.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 17:05:59


Post by: Xirax


Still no clue if tactical doctrines are available for BA/DA/SW etc.. but some FAQ dropped to WH community.. no point values though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 17:10:55


Post by: Sterling191


Xirax wrote:
Still no clue if tactical doctrines are available for BA/DA/SW etc.. but some FAQ dropped to WH community.. no point values though.


Doctrines are explicitly not available to anyone outside of Codex: Space Marines.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 17:51:34


Post by: Martel732


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also we got the update today for the Index and FW. Just makes you add the rules. So rejoice everyone and screw Martel.


I'm not above running counts as. You seem to have an unhealthy problem with bringing me up.

Even if I don't, this is nothing compared to 6th ed.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 18:26:30


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also we got the update today for the Index and FW. Just makes you add the rules. So rejoice everyone and screw Martel.
No update to the Index.

Wait really? I thought I read it in there.

So while Index wargear is fine, which units are left for being Index only?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 20:59:02


Post by: Stavkat


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also we got the update today for the Index and FW. Just makes you add the rules. So rejoice everyone and screw Martel.
No update to the Index.

Wait really? I thought I read it in there.

So while Index wargear is fine, which units are left for being Index only?


Index update is there unless you guys are talking about some other index

“IMPERIAL ARMOUR –
INDEX: FORCES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES...


Angels of Death
Add the following ability to all datasheets (excluding Grey Knights datasheets):
‘This unit has the following abilities: And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.’“




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
Xirax wrote:
Still no clue if tactical doctrines are available for BA/DA/SW etc.. but some FAQ dropped to WH community.. no point values though.


Doctrines are explicitly not available to anyone outside of Codex: Space Marines.


You appear to be mistaken on this, sort of. Index SM stuff gets doctrines at least.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 21:04:43


Post by: Crimson


Stavkat wrote:

Index update is there unless you guys are talking about some other index

“IMPERIAL ARMOUR –
INDEX: FORCES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES...


We are. That is the FW index, we're ralking about the Index Imperium 1.

You appear to be mistaken on this, sort of. Index SM stuff gets doctrines at least.

It only works in pure vanilla marine army though. If you put those FW index units in an army that has even one BA unit the doctrines do not work.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 21:08:25


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also we got the update today for the Index and FW. Just makes you add the rules. So rejoice everyone and screw Martel.
No update to the Index.

Wait really? I thought I read it in there.

So while Index wargear is fine, which units are left for being Index only?
Rhino Primaris. Land Raider Excelsior. Bike versions of everything other than the Captain.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 21:17:01


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also we got the update today for the Index and FW. Just makes you add the rules. So rejoice everyone and screw Martel.
No update to the Index.

Wait really? I thought I read it in there.

So while Index wargear is fine, which units are left for being Index only?
Rhino Primaris. Land Raider Excelsior. Bike versions of everything other than the Captain.

We might actually be okay then. Not having Biker stuff gain the bonus is silly but I think even White Scars will live.

Also you forgot the Imperial Space Marine.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 21:22:54


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also we got the update today for the Index and FW. Just makes you add the rules. So rejoice everyone and screw Martel.
No update to the Index.

Wait really? I thought I read it in there.

So while Index wargear is fine, which units are left for being Index only?
Rhino Primaris. Land Raider Excelsior. Bike versions of everything other than the Captain.

We might actually be okay then. Not having Biker stuff gain the bonus is silly but I think even White Scars will live.

Also you forgot the Imperial Space Marine.
The issue isn't that they don't gain the bonus. The issue is that everything else loses it if you field one of those units. I actually still use my Rhino Primaris from time to time, and losing Combat Doctrines because GW is lazy is really stupid.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 21:34:22


Post by: Stavkat


 Crimson wrote:
Stavkat wrote:

Index update is there unless you guys are talking about some other index

“IMPERIAL ARMOUR –
INDEX: FORCES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES...


We are. That is the FW index, we're ralking about the Index Imperium 1.


Whoops, crud. Don’t mind me I am too out of the loop to be helpful. The Imperium Index is how one could include techmarines on bikes, yeah?

You appear to be mistaken on this, sort of. Index SM stuff gets doctrines at least.

It only works in pure vanilla marine army though. If you put those FW index units in an army that has even one BA unit the doctrines do not work.


Yes, good point, worth reiterating.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 23:41:13


Post by: godardc


About the space marines, not the primaris, who are the winners ? They all got something actually. Would you play predators now without the killshot stratagem ? Would you say the stormraven is still too fragile ?
What about the dreadnoughts, they had CT before and didn't see a lot of play though


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/16 23:56:42


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Dreads get additional rules with the new Chapter Tactics so I dunno.

Predators were just lucky to get Killshot off ONCE when Rule of 3 was implemented. It isn't something that's a bonus or anything when you think about it


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 00:16:55


Post by: Crimson


It has been widely reported that the Aggressors got an extra wound and attack, but there is also a buff to their double shoot rule. It has been reworded so that it now always applies to overwatch, even if they moved on their own turn.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 01:16:55


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
It has been widely reported that the Aggressors got an extra wound and attack, but there is also a buff to their double shoot rule. It has been reworded so that it now always applies to overwatch, even if they moved on their own turn.


.............. brb buying 3 packs of agressors!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 01:29:53


Post by: casvalremdeikun


 Crimson wrote:
It has been widely reported that the Aggressors got an extra wound and attack, but there is also a buff to their double shoot rule. It has been reworded so that it now always applies to overwatch, even if they moved on their own turn.

Considering that they only ever could move on their own turn, and would always be stationary on their opponent's turn, nothing actually changed here. That said, I love my two squads of Aggressors. They get work done. And it only got better with Combat Doctrines and the added hits from Crimson Fists Chapter Tactics.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 01:36:29


Post by: BrianDavion


Ultramarines agressors are going to be great as you can actually move up and be, ya know, agressive, with them


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 01:38:53


Post by: Crimson


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It has been widely reported that the Aggressors got an extra wound and attack, but there is also a buff to their double shoot rule. It has been reworded so that it now always applies to overwatch, even if they moved on their own turn.

Considering that they only ever could move on their own turn, and would always be stationary on their opponent's turn, nothing actually changed here. That said, I love my two squads of Aggressors. They get work done. And it only got better with Combat Doctrines and the added hits from Crimson Fists Chapter Tactics.

The old wording said they had to remain stationary on 'their turn,' so remaining stationary during opponents turn didn't benefit them. It now says 'this turn,' so it does.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 02:09:09


Post by: casvalremdeikun


 Crimson wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It has been widely reported that the Aggressors got an extra wound and attack, but there is also a buff to their double shoot rule. It has been reworded so that it now always applies to overwatch, even if they moved on their own turn.

Considering that they only ever could move on their own turn, and would always be stationary on their opponent's turn, nothing actually changed here. That said, I love my two squads of Aggressors. They get work done. And it only got better with Combat Doctrines and the added hits from Crimson Fists Chapter Tactics.

The old wording said they had to remain stationary on 'their turn,' so remaining stationary during opponents turn didn't benefit them. It now says 'this turn,' so it does.
Ah. Well I was playing that wrong before. Now I have a bunch of stuff that is really stupid to charge (Aggressors, I will have 2x Instigator/Las Fusil Eliminator Squads, and basically all of my Intercessors). Hurray!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 09:52:06


Post by: cody.d.


So, checking through the new book I was trying to figure out possible uses for the new transport. Considering that it can't take gravis armor it seems that anything that could be put in it would work just as well or better outside of it. Phobos can infiltrate, intercessors can stand still and reach across most of the board with their bolters, even plasma can simply shoot at range and you can't assault after disembarking.

The one use I can imagine that this thing can fufill that can't be done otherwise is libby delivery. Nullzone is still a powerful power, shutting off invuls can mean the death for a host of difficult to kill units. But with the aura of 6 it's a little difficult to use.

But the new transport can move 14, the libby can disembark 3 inchs away then move 6. Pop nullzone which is now on a 7 rather than a 9 and that's another 6 inchs. So you can make vunerable a unit 29 inchs away from your deployment, plus the width of the libbies base.

What do you think? Is there a better use for this transport? Do you like the idea of laughing at those irritating deathwatch and knight units while deleting them with your +1 ap heavy weapons due to the doctrines? Probably will only work on one unit a game before both transport and libby but that trade could be worth it.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 09:57:25


Post by: godardc


Can marines go into the transport or only primaris ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 10:01:26


Post by: casvalremdeikun


 godardc wrote:
Can marines go into the transport or only primaris ?
Just Primaris. No Gravis armor either.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 10:14:54


Post by: cody.d.


Hence why I struggle to imagine a proper purpose for this vehicle. Phobos can infiltrate to get near. Intercessors can simply take boltrifles and pop heads from range. Character spam can't assault out of it. Even some of the shorter range weapons they've given us on the numarines simply have better long range options or require larger unit sizes to really shine. (like the auto bolt rifles and the auto hit at half range strat (which I feel is a bit meh considering a most -1 modifiers don't work at less than 12 inchs))

From a design and purpose point of view it's a weird duck until GW gives us some melta gun equivalents on primaris marines. Kinda wish it was like the mechanicus tank, with a cheap dedicated tank build option.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 10:51:43


Post by: Crimson


It is good for Hellblasters and veteran Intercessors with their support characters.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 11:01:02


Post by: godardc


Shall we open a new thread for the codex ? Or keep this one ?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Can marines go into the transport or only primaris ?
Just Primaris. No Gravis armor either.


Thanks ! It's segregation time then


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 11:18:38


Post by: Mandragola


I tend to agree the impulsor is lacking a ver obvious purpose. There are definitely some uses for it though.

Hellblasters clearly benefit a lot. The problem they’ve always had is being shot off the board, or tied up in combat. These things protect them and let you get them where they’re needed. The greatly extended range you get means they might be able to occupy something like a midfield ruin, where otherwise they often have to sacrifice cover to get to good firing positions - or vice versa.

All the new vanguard stuff changes the context for hellblasters quite a bit. Now, your opponent might be tied up with all kinds of sneaky guys and warsuits, leaving the hellblasters under less of a threat.

Also, missions. The ability to chuck five index intercessors a really long way is great. You could even have some of these guys get into the impulsor after the hellblasters got out, ready to be catapulted somewhere o. Turn 2 - or even just to get out normally and charge something.

White scars have a 1cp strat that lets you do this with any transport that doesn’t have the flyer battlefield role (so not storm ravens). So they could spit five assault centurions out the front of a land raider crusader, for example. Still no charging, but removing those guys from terrain could be a challenge.

For the impulsor, the capacity remains a bit of an issue. Carrying the same number of people in a repulsor is about 50% more expensive, but you get a ton of guns. The impulsor are cheaper though and tougher, point for point. They allow you to treat them as somewhat disposable - charging knights to soak overwatch and so on - which you would t want to do with a repulsor.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 14:29:51


Post by: bmsattler


It seems to me that the Invictor Warsuit is really really good. Lots of shots (18'ish per model), decent melee, just about guaranteed first-turn charge if you want it, and fairly cheap to boot. A group of three of these would be an impressive tip to the space marine spear.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 15:22:13


Post by: Crimson



For the sake of clarity I started a new thread for the new codex. Please, let's take further discussion there.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/08/17 15:52:24


Post by: BrookM


Locked per request OP.