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Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/09 17:42:11


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
They don't own... stalkers!
Units like this are just weird. I prefer venerable dreads over stalkers now.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/09 20:15:29


Post by: Martel732


BA don't get those! FML!!!! I'm only 90% compatible with this thread, sadly. The random T8 and extra wounds can be an annoyance for foes.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/09 20:39:17


Post by: bort


Venerables and Stalkers aren’t the same slot though. A venerable mortis would be the clear winner in most cases, if it existed.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/09 20:52:40


Post by: Martel732


Do slots even matter, really? It's just about points for me.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/09 21:57:36


Post by: bort


Martel732 wrote:
Do slots even matter, really? It's just about points for me.


Admittedly probably not unless doing a brigade. I’ve been debating on swapping mine back down. Basically it’s trapping me into taking 2 attack bikes and 1 heavy slot I’m not wild about, but going down to 2 battalions meaning converting all those points straight into an HQ (not that Id mind another smash) and cost 3cps. 2 for the brigade and 1 for having to use the 2cp assassin instead of 1cp slot. Even granting that vanilla marines don’t have the best strats, giving up 3 cps for smash cap vs same points in units doesn’t seem like the best return.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/09 21:58:45


Post by: Martel732


Stalkers are pretty nice for filling a brigade. So are the new suppressors. Especially for BA. For any vanilla that might want to punch, suppressors are boss.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/09 22:08:11


Post by: bort


Yeah, if I had like 100 more points (dang assassin being too good to skip :p) it’d work out perfectly. I would change the bikes to suppressors. If you saw my post above I was definitely eyeing the Stalker, there’s plenty of fly targets around. Until I build one I’m gonna try the Thunderfire though, I have no source of indirect fire otherwise and those brigade cps mean I can always use the strat.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 00:01:51


Post by: Martel732


Indirect fire is powerful. Thunderfire is another of that 10% divergence for ba. Whirlwind isnt terrible if you pretend ig doesnt exist.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 11:43:40


Post by: Ice_can


Martel732 wrote:
Indirect fire is powerful. Thunderfire is another of that 10% divergence for ba. Whirlwind isnt terrible if you pretend ig doesnt exist.

Spacemarine codex doesn't look soo bad if your pretending IG doesn't exist.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 12:29:11


Post by: Martel732


No, it's still bad. Just some options look much better because IG basically has monopoly on effective ignore LoS. As good as hive guard are, they are not catahcan manticores.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 15:30:17


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
Do slots even matter, really? It's just about points for me.

Not for elites. Battalions give you 6 elites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Stalkers are pretty nice for filling a brigade. So are the new suppressors. Especially for BA. For any vanilla that might want to punch, suppressors are boss.
Suppressors are really nice. Better than I expected. Their height is actually an advantage. Can't hide from these guys. They are also great for holding back line. I really wish they were HS though. Stalkers are good but I would much rather fill HS with suppressors. Eliminators are okay too I guess - they just don't fit into my builds.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 15:43:55


Post by: Martel732


Actually, I really like them fast attack. Look at marine fast attack choices. Yucko. I can even get plasma ASM.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 16:33:22


Post by: Alex_85


I have nothing from Shadowspear, but in a future maybe I go for Suppressors.

I really like AC because they give you a good rate of fire ( I ussually use my Dreads with AC).

Then, are Suppressors worth it?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 17:03:19


Post by: bort


Figure 4 Supressors is about the cost of a quad autocannon venerable. So not quite as good shooting, but more mobile and gives another much needed FA option. And the overwatch prevention would be useful in a more assault list.

I keep waffling on the Eliminators. At first I was thinking they’d be quite useful since you get sniping and ignore cover in 1 unit, but then realized at their cost they kinda waste the sniper power as you roll too few dice to fish for mortals and too few to likely do much thru walls. They’re great to prevent an opponent hiding a char with 1w left out of sight, but don’t seem like near as good general case damage for the points as I first hoped.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 17:43:54


Post by: Martel732


BA don't get ven dreads, so suppressors are super boss for me.

Eliminators need LoS to use the -2 D3 damage ammo. They benefit a LOT from scyers gaze.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 18:02:44


Post by: bort


Yeah, that’s my point, the regular Los sniper shot is decent, but worse than scout snipers cause you only get half the mortal wounds. Then the ignore los shot does less damage. Getting them both in 1 unit is nice, but neither half is all that great.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/10 18:04:54


Post by: Martel732


But they're better vs higher armor targets typically because of -2 AP. They're also quite hard to kill.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/11 04:04:47


Post by: argonak


bort wrote:
Yeah, that’s my point, the regular Los sniper shot is decent, but worse than scout snipers cause you only get half the mortal wounds. Then the ignore los shot does less damage. Getting them both in 1 unit is nice, but neither half is all that great.


Yeah, and you're looking at 72 points for a minimum strength unit right? Doesn't really seem to add up honestly. I haven't gotten any yet, waiting to see what the kit looks like. the models so far are worth buying on looks alone though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 09:04:15


Post by: Trickster12


Getting my ass kicked by Tau. (sorry for the long post...)

I've played mostly against a Tau army and after several crushing or clear defeats its starting to see like we (my army) have no answers for them.

We've been playing missions from the rulebook and Chapter Aproved. I'm using Raven Guard chapter tactics. My forces roughly:

- Captain (or 2). The other captain has been a terminator captain deepstricking with 2 terminator units.
- Liutenant (or 2)
- sometimes a techmarine to repair dreadnoughts

- 3 scout squads with bolters
- 2-3 intercessor squads

- 2 x devastator squad (lascannon/missile launcher + heavy bolter)
- 0-2 hellblaster squads with the heavy version

- Reiver squad deep striking
- Terminators and sometimes assault terminators
- Venerable Dread with twin lascannon and missile launcher
- Dreadnought with assault cannon and CCW
- Aggressors with bolt weapon

- Stormhawk Interceptor with assault cannons, skyhammer missiles and icarus storm cannon


Tau forces roughly

- Small detachment from different sept than the rest of the army. They are markerlight users:
- Cadre Fireblade and 3 marksmen guys with (Sa'sea? sept) re-rolls to ther markerlighst


- Cadre Fireblade (going with bunch of fire warriors)
- Coldstar Commander (flying where ever he wants)

- 2 x Riptides (accompanied by 10-15 shield drones, so I can't even touch the battle suits with my big guns because all of the drones have to be killed first)
- Broadside sometimes

- Ghostkeel
- 2 units of those smaller stealth suits

- 6 guys with Crisis suits deep striking (accompanied with some drones)

- about 3 units of fire warriors
- some drone units

Situation at the end of the 1st battle round: "This does not look good."
Situation at the end of the 2nd battle round: "The battle has been decided."
After 3rd round: "Lets see who is the last marine to get killed today"

Main problems:
- Tau firepower. Riptides at the forefront are just deleting my units like flies
- The survivability of the Tau. Battlesuits with their invulnerable saves and shield drones make them really hard to kill.
- Speed and board control. Stealth suits start all over the field and those other battlesuits move with pretty good speed.
- "Tau are bad in close combat", they said. Even IF I manage to get to CC with them, the overall overwatch is just brutal. WHEN my turn ends the battlesuits just fly away from CC and shoot my guys to bits. And my guys even aren't that special in combat anyways!

So, I know my army isn't a tournament force and it doesn't have to be, but atleast I would like to put up a fight against them. All tips are welcomed
Is there any hope for us? What is/are the magic units I'm missing?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 11:31:02


Post by: Martel732


Don't try to assault them.

Kill markerlights first.

Kill drones second.

Only then kill the big stuff, otherwise, its immortal.

If drones are out of LoS, you must have ignore LoS weapons.

Tau are like a video game boss in the way they must be approached.

Don't use marine flyers or hellblasters. Ever.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 17:14:22


Post by: Alex_85


Martel732 wrote:

Tau are like a video game boss in the way they must be approached.



This is exactly what I think about them.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 18:56:58


Post by: Ice_can


Alex_85 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Tau are like a video game boss in the way they must be approached.



This is exactly what I think about them.

They are perfectly beatable, however just not with marines for the most part. Though that could be said about most codex's when your using pure marines as your base.
Nids, guard & eldar do fine vrs tau heck even soup does well vrs Tau. GSC are nasty to them,marines just haven't got the right tools.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 19:20:22


Post by: Xenomancers


Ehhh. Tau are straight busted. Broadsides just put out too much firepower and benfit from -1ap upgrade way too much. It would be okay if you could kill them but when you have to chew through 30+ drones first...just forget it. The drone intercept needs to be like a 4+ not a 2+ and Sniper abilities need to completely ignore them. The drone should also have to be in LOS to protect the unit you are shooting.

Marines can not win a fair fight against tau.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 20:25:38


Post by: Ice_can


 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh. Tau are straight busted. Broadsides just put out too much firepower and benfit from -1ap upgrade way too much. It would be okay if you could kill them but when you have to chew through 30+ drones first...just forget it. The drone intercept needs to be like a 4+ not a 2+ and Sniper abilities need to completely ignore them. The drone should also have to be in LOS to protect the unit you are shooting.

Marines can not win a fair fight against tau.

Again savour protocols arn't exactlly OP, just marines as they should lore wise loose a shooting war with Tau.
They also loose a shoot out with guard and heck they even loose a shooting war with Drukari.
That's not a problem with saviour protocols it's marine shooting being poor and having 0 melee ability outside of smash captains.
Funny enough guard, eldar of both colours, GSC and soup do plenty well enough against Tau which indicates that they aren't the problem, marines just not bringing worthwhile rules is.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 20:34:56


Post by: Xenomancers


Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh. Tau are straight busted. Broadsides just put out too much firepower and benfit from -1ap upgrade way too much. It would be okay if you could kill them but when you have to chew through 30+ drones first...just forget it. The drone intercept needs to be like a 4+ not a 2+ and Sniper abilities need to completely ignore them. The drone should also have to be in LOS to protect the unit you are shooting.

Marines can not win a fair fight against tau.

Again savour protocols arn't exactlly OP, just marines as they should lore wise loose a shooting war with Tau.
They also loose a shoot out with guard and heck they even loose a shooting war with Drukari.
That's not a problem with saviour protocols it's marine shooting being poor and having 0 melee ability outside of smash captains.
Funny enough guard, eldar of both colours, GSC and soup do plenty well enough against Tau which indicates that they aren't the problem, marines just not bringing worthwhile rules is.

Ehhh - they are OP agains the weapons you need to kill their 2+ save units in cover. Intercepting shots against weapons which tend to have only few shots is OP. Also their intercept ability working out of LOS is particularly busted because that means you can't use effective weapons on the drones. It becomes very quickly a game you can't even possibly win without a good portion of your army having ignore LOS. Plus its not like Shield drones are easy to kill ether. 3+ in cover and 4++ and a 5+++ at all times. I've fired 2 WW and a thunderfire cannon into them before only to watch them make a bunch of 4+ 5+++ which basically means the rest of my army is doing practically nothing.

The only way you can assault a tau fort realistically is to have an ignore overwatch ability which is particularly rare. So that isn't a viable way to beat them ether (where it really should be their weakness)


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 20:57:03


Post by: Ice_can


 Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh. Tau are straight busted. Broadsides just put out too much firepower and benfit from -1ap upgrade way too much. It would be okay if you could kill them but when you have to chew through 30+ drones first...just forget it. The drone intercept needs to be like a 4+ not a 2+ and Sniper abilities need to completely ignore them. The drone should also have to be in LOS to protect the unit you are shooting.

Marines can not win a fair fight against tau.

Again savour protocols arn't exactlly OP, just marines as they should lore wise loose a shooting war with Tau.
They also loose a shoot out with guard and heck they even loose a shooting war with Drukari.
That's not a problem with saviour protocols it's marine shooting being poor and having 0 melee ability outside of smash captains.
Funny enough guard, eldar of both colours, GSC and soup do plenty well enough against Tau which indicates that they aren't the problem, marines just not bringing worthwhile rules is.

Ehhh - they are OP agains the weapons you need to kill their 2+ save units in cover. Intercepting shots against weapons which tend to have only few shots is OP. Also their intercept ability working out of LOS is particularly busted because that means you can't use effective weapons on the drones. It becomes very quickly a game you can't even possibly win without a good portion of your army having ignore LOS. Plus its not like Shield drones are easy to kill ether. 3+ in cover and 4++ and a 5+++ at all times. I've fired 2 WW and a thunderfire cannon into them before only to watch them make a bunch of 4+ 5+++ which basically means the rest of my army is doing practically nothing.

The only way you can assault a tau fort realistically is to have an ignore overwatch ability which is particularly rare. So that isn't a viable way to beat them ether (where it really should be their weakness)

Except your not listening again.
Do marines have the tools to beat Tau NO.
Does that make Tau OP like you claim NO.
Does it highlight that marines suck yes.

You know what kills drones good MW, Weight of dice & ILOS.
You know what kills battle suits well, dissy cannons, MW spam, Battlecannons, raw weight of dice.
T5 doesn't matter against massed S3

Marines just don't have any of the above that doesn't automatically make other armies OP.
Jesus by that logic everything outide of 1W power armour is OP.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/13 22:11:55


Post by: Xenomancers


ILOS is exceptionally rare unless you are playing Imperial guard. Mortal wounds are mostly ignored by having screening units. Weight of dice is countered by 2+ saves. It seems like you are ignoring the real issue here. Being unable to target the units you need with the weapons you need to is pretty unbalanced in a game that is essentially 90% tactically about target priority.

Oddly enough - space marines have some unique ability to apply mortal wounds to units through screens with line breaker bombardment...unfortunately the ability is too short ranged and dependent on going first it doesn't work.

Regardless - there are plenty of armies that don't have real ILOS options...that makes drones OP and in essence makes tau OP.

Eldar do well against tau because tau can't deal witrh -2 to hit...(almost no one can)
Guard do well against tau for obvious reasons (ILOS for days) Plus they outrange most of their super shooty units with their own super shooty units.
Nids are actually terrible against gaurd. They don't even need drones to beat nids. They are practically immune to their assault units and 2+ saves in cover nids can not deal with. At least not after turn 1 Kuyoun wipes out everything in your army that shoots competently.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 03:00:35


Post by: ultimentra


One of the biggest problems with Tau right now in my opinion is Darkstrider and Shadowsun. The Tau can just spam the gak out of Riptides and infantry, and you can't ever kill the Riptides because they always have a 3+ invuln save (which Knights can't get anymore how come Riptides get it?) and you can't engage them in close combat either.

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

And he's how many points? With how many wounds?

Insanity.

Tau need a huge nerf. HUGE.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 03:44:15


Post by: cody.d.


Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!


I mean, you do play Imperium, there is a good bit of access to snipers. Darkstrider is almost the perfect target.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 07:03:27


Post by: Rogerio134134


There must surely be a space marine codex coming very soon? So many units not included in the book now and even more on the way.

All the stuff from shadow spear plus we also have the new repulsor tank destroyer and a new iron hands Primaris guy too. Even if it's just a second edition like chaos got?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 10:03:48


Post by: Ice_can


 ultimentra wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Tau right now in my opinion is Darkstrider and Shadowsun. The Tau can just spam the gak out of Riptides and infantry, and you can't ever kill the Riptides because they always have a 3+ invuln save (which Knights can't get anymore how come Riptides get it?) and you can't engage them in close combat either.

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

And he's how many points? With how many wounds?

Insanity.

Tau need a huge nerf. HUGE.

Your complaining because you can't kill 5 (Toughness 3)wounds with a 5+ Sv because he has a sudo fly aura.
Jesus I know marines are bad but that's just showing that your list is terrible.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 12:31:46


Post by: Lemondish


Rogerio134134 wrote:
There must surely be a space marine codex coming very soon? So many units not included in the book now and even more on the way.

All the stuff from shadow spear plus we also have the new repulsor tank destroyer and a new iron hands Primaris guy too. Even if it's just a second edition like chaos got?


Undoubtedly on the way.

Some rumours point to vehicles getting a chapter tactic as well.

But will it simply be a Primaris codex or another full marine release? It's already a bloated book - I wish they would simply consolidate data sheets wherever possible.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 18:19:23


Post by: Xenomancers


cody.d. wrote:
Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!


I mean, you do play Imperium, there is a good bit of access to snipers. Darkstrider is almost the perfect target.

Do you know what drones do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Tau right now in my opinion is Darkstrider and Shadowsun. The Tau can just spam the gak out of Riptides and infantry, and you can't ever kill the Riptides because they always have a 3+ invuln save (which Knights can't get anymore how come Riptides get it?) and you can't engage them in close combat either.

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

And he's how many points? With how many wounds?

Insanity.

Tau need a huge nerf. HUGE.

Your complaining because you can't kill 5 (Toughness 3)wounds with a 5+ Sv because he has a sudo fly aura.
Jesus I know marines are bad but that's just showing that your list is terrible.
They have a 4+ save and put out 3 str 5 shots at 15" next to a fireblade. The point is after you assault a tau army - you should be winning - because you took a lot of fire to get there. Currently tau are basically immune to assault. They dont even need darkstrider - however - dark strider would make it even harder to beat tau with melle units.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 19:47:20


Post by: ultimentra


My apologies for not playing my toy soldiers the correct way. I dont use a static gunline. I have cyborgs wearing red robes for that, and they do it better. Thank you for backing me up Xenomancer.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 20:18:13


Post by: Martel732


I don't even try to assault Tau with BA. They are a video game boss that is only vulnerable if you attack in a specific sequence at range.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 22:40:18


Post by: Ice_can


 Xenomancers wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!


I mean, you do play Imperium, there is a good bit of access to snipers. Darkstrider is almost the perfect target.

Do you know what drones do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Tau right now in my opinion is Darkstrider and Shadowsun. The Tau can just spam the gak out of Riptides and infantry, and you can't ever kill the Riptides because they always have a 3+ invuln save (which Knights can't get anymore how come Riptides get it?) and you can't engage them in close combat either.

Darkstrider is the most undercosted, overloaded model in the game. He has so many ridiculous abilities that break this game. If you somehow manage to engage Tau in melee despite the hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and all kinds of other bs, you can hit them, maybe even kill them, tie units up, but guess what! IM STILL SHOOTING YOU AFTER I DISENGAGE!!!! BECAUSE DARKSTRIDER IS STANDING THERE!!!

And he's how many points? With how many wounds?

Insanity.

Tau need a huge nerf. HUGE.

Your complaining because you can't kill 5 (Toughness 3)wounds with a 5+ Sv because he has a sudo fly aura.
Jesus I know marines are bad but that's just showing that your list is terrible.
They have a 4+ save and put out 3 str 5 shots at 15" next to a fireblade. The point is after you assault a tau army - you should be winning - because you took a lot of fire to get there. Currently tau are basically immune to assault. They dont even need darkstrider - however - dark strider would make it even harder to beat tau with melle units.

Really if your going to complain about a named charictor FFS look at a codex.

Darkstrider is a 5+ save, he doesn't do 3 shots untill 9 inches.
Though if your playing against people getting the rules that wrong no wonder your think everything is broken.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/14 22:43:49


Post by: Xenomancers


You realize he is behind firewarriors right? Possibly lots of them...I miss understood you - I thought we were talking about fire warriors. That is the unit that dark strider actually buffs.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/15 00:22:11


Post by: cody.d.


Do you know what drones do?


Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/15 03:20:21


Post by: Lemondish


cody.d. wrote:
Do you know what drones do?


Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.


That's absolutely the right thing to do.

But on proper boards with enough LoS blocking terrain, it becomes a bit of a cat and mouse game for Marines.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/15 03:32:57


Post by: Martel732


Lemondish wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Do you know what drones do?


Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.


That's absolutely the right thing to do.

But on proper boards with enough LoS blocking terrain, it becomes a bit of a cat and mouse game for Marines.


Relying on terrain is foolish. Especially at tournaments.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/15 13:15:21


Post by: Lemondish


Martel732 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Do you know what drones do?


Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.


That's absolutely the right thing to do.

But on proper boards with enough LoS blocking terrain, it becomes a bit of a cat and mouse game for Marines.


Relying on terrain is foolish. Especially at tournaments.


I think you misread what I said.

I said that terrain makes it difficult to counter shield drones for Astartes. That's why ignore LoS weapons are so reliable against them.

And lots of terrain is by far the best way to play this game. You, sir, can feel free to attend tournaments with piss poor boards all you want - doesn't mean it's a standard. Can you be clearer about what obscure crutches you're relying on in the future?

Being ill prepared to handle terrain because sometimes you won't have to is probably the weakest complaint I've heard from you yet.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/15 17:05:41


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Do you know what drones do?


Yes, which is why they're often the first thing I shoot at. Amazing right? Kill the drones with anti infantry fire before firing heavy weapons at battlesuits or other high value targets.

And yes they may have an excess but bodyguard units do have a diminishing return as they often don't do that much damage.


That's absolutely the right thing to do.

But on proper boards with enough LoS blocking terrain, it becomes a bit of a cat and mouse game for Marines.


Relying on terrain is foolish. Especially at tournaments.

No ones talking about relying on terrain. It's just if you are on a standard board (with bad but not non existent cover) You can easily hide a few drones. A few drones is all you need to completely ruin a marine shooting phase.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/17 02:30:53


Post by: argonak


Hey, is anyone using whirlwinds? How are they performing? .

The strategem with the landspeeder seems a bit meh.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/17 02:32:14


Post by: Martel732


Ignore LoS is powerful. IG just do it much better.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/17 02:39:21


Post by: cody.d.


A detachment of guard with a bunch of mortar heavy weapon teams would often make its points back in a table with a healthy amount of LOS blocking terrain. If nothing else it would allow you to take some of the anti-infantry strain off the marines so they can get to proper beakie jobs.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/17 05:13:31


Post by: bort


I seem to recall that someone above liked the FW Whirlwind variant for something, but the base one is still bad.

If you want to stick with Marines and ignore LoS, it's pretty much the Thunderfire for the strat or Eliminators for the snipe effect. Both offer something the Whirlwind doesn't for the same cost.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/17 16:15:40


Post by: Alex_85


I used them a couple of times. Never had luck in the amount of shots.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/17 22:18:44


Post by: ultimentra


Could go for Rapier mortars too. If a vehicle gets close and in LOS those things can do some real damage.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/26 18:03:24


Post by: davou


quick question ; If I take a libby on a bike, do I get access to book powers or am I limited to stuff that was avaiable from the index?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/05/27 00:24:15


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 davou wrote:
quick question ; If I take a libby on a bike, do I get access to book powers or am I limited to stuff that was avaiable from the index?


Short answer: yes.

Longer, and more honest answer: It depends. It's a contested issue, so ask your group. There's an inconclusive thread about it in YMDC.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/13 22:15:19


Post by: godardc


So after 6 months I am finally coming home and it's time to take off the dust from my marines. One CA approved later, I have a lot of info to get in.
Basically, my new list looks like this;


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [122 PL, 1,912pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

Gametype: Matched

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Champion of Humanity, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Shield Eternal, Thunder hammer, Warlord

Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts]
. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

Sergeant Chronus [11 PL, 216pts]
. Predator: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Two Lascannons

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 100pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 100pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Company Veterans [8 PL, 80pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 101pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 101pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Bike Squad [8 PL, 138pts]
. 5x Scout Biker: 5x Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Boltgun, Twin boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Predator [9 PL, 186pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Two Lascannons

Predator [9 PL, 186pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Predator autocannon, Two Lascannons

Thunderfire Cannon [6 PL, 92pts]
. Techmarine Gunner
. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 315pts]: Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers

++ Total: [122 PL, 1,912pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


I decided to take a stormraven again because of the new bolter rules, and I am going to try the three pedators thanks to the cover stratagem (and this way I hope they won't have enough AT weapon to take down both T1)
I don't know for the vv, I just wanted something to go with my CM !

The main points I wanted to handle were: anti infantry firepower (getting better thanks to the bolter rules) and AT firepower (the predators).
However, I have no psy and very few boots on the ground (Marine psy is so bad and the librarian didn't get any discount !).

I do have 88 pts left, so feel free to comment and give advices !


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/13 23:02:12


Post by: bort


Well, 1 quick thought is you’re only 2 troops and 2 fa from a 12cp brigade instead of a 5cp battalion. That’s like 180 points, so you could do it just by swapping the tacticals to scouts and using the last points for some attack bikes or tarantulas.
Edit: just realized there was more than 3 scout bikes, so could break those into 2 squads.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/13 23:36:17


Post by: godardc


Do I really need those CP ? No ML, no HB, and it's gonna be SM stratagems, not the greatest ones...


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/14 00:00:31


Post by: bort


Admittedly true, but you can get +7 for cheaper than the loyal 32...
Bare min you can move 1 hq and 3 of a type over to get +1 for free.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/14 00:29:39


Post by: godardc


What do you think of terminators now ? I have never been a fan (offensive output so low !!!), but with the beacon they could tp, kill a lonely unit, and come back home, they could secure the relic, and give me a bit more mobility, for 'only" 165 points ?

bort wrote:
Admittedly true, but you can get +7 for cheaper than the loyal 32...
Bare min you can move 1 hq and 3 of a type over to get +1 for free.


Yeah indeed, I could put the CM and the elite choices in their own vanguard detchament. Always good to grab one more CP for free

Or I could use an assassin, they have become super nice !


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/14 02:05:17


Post by: Vilehydra


If you can, get in Tigurius, the ability to make a friendly model have an additional -1 to hit for free at the start of the opponents shooting phase is going to be a big help. The access to MoH to buff either the captain for damage (5 Str 10 thunder hammer hits, yes please, 6 if you use him as the imperiums sword WLT) or make the stormraven or one of the predators T8, which is one of the biggest toughness thresholds in the game.

Give the LT a thunderhammer, he has 3 attacks at WS2, then purchase the armor indomitus for him. I use it on my JP librarian all the time and it makes him extremely durable.

Was putting some thought into terminators and was initially couldn't really think of a good way to use them because as you said damage output is pretty low. But then I started thinking of how to use the strategic mobility aspect to really use the terminators and came up with a couple ideas that might make them capable in a TAC list:

1) Standard Deepstrike, get stuck in, teleport back to the objective after the squad is spent. Going to work best with a list that applies a lot of second turn pressure

2) Charge blockers, many lists take advantage of charging and surrounding small, tough to kill units, and pillowfisting them to protect against your shooting. Terminators aren't necessarily easy to displace and could be decent first turn blockers that just nope out when they get tied up

3) Far flank defense, got objectives in the corners or want to shove out the flank bubble? Place a terminator on each flank/ corner with the homers being covered by their brother squad. It allows you to project board control onto either flank while also giving you the option to overload one of yours if the need arises.

Basically, terminators are going to have low damage output even with a cyclone missile launcher. but have some strategic mobility that allows them to apply that firepower and durability where it might be more useful. The problem is that the mobility is really vulnerable, an enemy just needs to get within 9 inches to disable it. So they'll always remain a risky pick, I think they just need a stratagem that gives them a bit of extra oomf, or make teleport homers equip-able by all infantry and bike units so that terminators can act as a constant re positioning force



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/14 09:35:33


Post by: godardc


Yeah so today I learnt / remembered that the stormraven doesn't have the new rapid fire rule and doesn't get the cover T1 because he is a flyer. So, hum, he is a big fragile target that can't even use correctly it's hurricane bolters, for 300 points. I guess I'll have to let him collect dust a little bit longer...

Otherwise, have you used dreadnought lately ? I wanna play my ironclad, especially seeing as I will probably play defensively with my marines so its low movement wouldn't be such an issue. One ven and one ironclad instead of he vv and one tac would give me a bit more long range AT firepower and tank saturation but I'm not sure about the ironclad


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/14 18:12:46


Post by: Insectum7


Vilehydra wrote:
If you can, get in Tigurius, the ability to make a friendly model have an additional -1 to hit for free at the start of the opponents shooting phase is going to be a big help. The access to MoH to buff either the captain for damage (5 Str 10 thunder hammer hits, yes please, 6 if you use him as the imperiums sword WLT) or make the stormraven or one of the predators T8, which is one of the biggest toughness thresholds in the game.

Give the LT a thunderhammer, he has 3 attacks at WS2, then purchase the armor indomitus for him. I use it on my JP librarian all the time and it makes him extremely durable.

Was putting some thought into terminators and was initially couldn't really think of a good way to use them because as you said damage output is pretty low. But then I started thinking of how to use the strategic mobility aspect to really use the terminators and came up with a couple ideas that might make them capable in a TAC list:

1) Standard Deepstrike, get stuck in, teleport back to the objective after the squad is spent. Going to work best with a list that applies a lot of second turn pressure

2) Charge blockers, many lists take advantage of charging and surrounding small, tough to kill units, and pillowfisting them to protect against your shooting. Terminators aren't necessarily easy to displace and could be decent first turn blockers that just nope out when they get tied up

3) Far flank defense, got objectives in the corners or want to shove out the flank bubble? Place a terminator on each flank/ corner with the homers being covered by their brother squad. It allows you to project board control onto either flank while also giving you the option to overload one of yours if the need arises.

Basically, terminators are going to have low damage output even with a cyclone missile launcher. but have some strategic mobility that allows them to apply that firepower and durability where it might be more useful. The problem is that the mobility is really vulnerable, an enemy just needs to get within 9 inches to disable it. So they'll always remain a risky pick, I think they just need a stratagem that gives them a bit of extra oomf, or make teleport homers equip-able by all infantry and bike units so that terminators can act as a constant re positioning force

I like the thinking behind everything in this post.

In particular, I like the 3rd Terminator idea a lot, with the "crossed" Teleport Homers. I've tried to come up with good ways to use that ability and never really came up with something satisfying, but the 'doubling up' potential is very cool.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/15 22:36:00


Post by: Master Chief VF


I think that hunters are some of the strongest models in the codex SM at the moment.

If you build a space marines list you should bring at least 2 of these things with you.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/16 01:06:41


Post by: Nevelon


 Master Chief VF wrote:
I think that hunters are some of the strongest models in the codex SM at the moment.

If you build a space marines list you should bring at least 2 of these things with you.


80 points for a lascannon (with some perks) The extra range over a normal LC is often overkill, the free re-roll is nice, but odds are you have a captain near. Plus vs. flyers is pretty sweet, if situational.

It’s on a T8 chassis, which is also very nice.

For 110 you get a TLLC Razor. Double the firepower (ish) for only 30 more points. T7, so not quite as nice, a little cargo which can help lower drops, no slot required.

Don’t get me wrong, I think the hunter is a very overlooked tank. But I don’t know if I’d go so far at to call it one of the strongest models, or mandatory to take multiples. If you need to fill HS slots for a brigade, you could do a lot worse though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/17 20:21:50


Post by: Azuza001


So me and some of the guys at the flgs have been talking lately about armies you don't see often on the tables. We have a pretty semi serious group of players, we like to run fluffy lists but at the same time we like to make those lists as competitive as we can.

Anyways as we were talking and i have always loved the black templars but no one here plays them. I know that they are seen as just not that good in some reapects due to no psychers and only able to deny if using cp plus their legion trait is seen as sub par by a lot of people but i want to give them a try. Then i saw that furry armageddon video and i had to make an army lol.

This is what i am thinking...

Spoiler:



++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Space Marines) [130 PL, 2,000pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 105pts]: Jump Pack, 2x Lightning Claw

High Marshal Helbrecht [9 PL, 150pts]

The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts]

+ Troops +

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 73pts]
. 4x Initiate
. Sword Brother: Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 73pts]
. 4x Initiate
. Sword Brother: Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 87pts]
. 3x Initiate
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sword Brother: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 87pts]
. 3x Initiate
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sword Brother: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 87pts]
. 3x Initiate
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Sword Brother: Boltgun, Chainsword

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 87pts]
. 3x Initiate
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Sword Brother: Boltgun, Chainsword

+ Elites +

Company Veterans [3 PL, 36pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Storm shield

Company Veterans [3 PL, 36pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Storm shield

Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 123pts]: Jump Pack, Melta bombs
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Power maul, Storm shield

+ Fast Attack +

Attack Bike Squad [3 PL, 37pts]
. Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun

Attack Bike Squad [3 PL, 37pts]
. Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun

Attack Bike Squad [3 PL, 37pts]
. Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Land Raider Crusader [16 PL, 286pts]: 2x Hurricane bolter, Multi-melta, Twin assault cannon

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

+ Dedicated Transport +

Drop Pod [5 PL, 65pts]: Storm bolter

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

++ Total: [130 PL, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe



So the list idea is pretty aggressive and simple. Lots of transportation for units to get up into 24" range by turn 2. I had to put the drop pod of 10 marine squads with flamers because...... "Avenge me brother... AVENGED ME!". But between the crusader, the 3 rhinos, the drop pod, the jump pack marines, and the vindicators, the army should have mobility covered.

Any thoughts or advice from veteran black templar players?



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/17 21:56:02


Post by: godardc


Why so many stormshield on the veterans ? I think that's the firt time I see someone trying to play vindicators ! I


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/17 22:53:00


Post by: Azuza001


Storm shields are 2pts, i figured why not put them on there. If even 1 3++ save is made where it would have failed normally thats a marine that i didnt pay for's wound right there. And if they do fail, its whatever. But as a screen for my chrs they make a pretty hard tar pit for anything that punches hard (mr demon prince.... come here, i want you to swing at me and not my tank!)

Yeah i like vindicators a lot. Just traded a venerable dread for 2 giving me 3 (guy has had them for 7 months and never used them so was willing to make me a deal for a dread he needed for his list, i call it a win!).

My theory craft of the list is threat saturation. My opponents should have trouble taking out that many vehicles turn 1, but you never know. If i go 2nd i use the strat to give myself cover so a 1+ land raider and 2+ rhinos / vindicators t1 is nice. If they kill the crusader then all i need is for the 3 vindicators to survive then i can start dropping pie plates like its 7th edition (3d3 mortals on a 4+? Hell yes). If they kill one the other 2 are still pretty effective for what they are and the rhinos move up to have turn 2 multi meltas and plasma guns in range getting full rerolls thanks to the high marshel. Threat saturation at its finest.

Vanguard vets and attack bikes take up the bully roll, find an easy target and make them suffer. I had luck with vanguard vets with jump packs and melta bombs before in a ravenguard list. They flew up next to a armiger helverin, dropped a melta bomb on it, charged in and surrounded it, then next turn fell back and dropped another bomb killing it. Thats going to be their roll.


So yeah, that's what i was thinking when making the list.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 00:27:49


Post by: Xenomancers


 Master Chief VF wrote:
I think that hunters are some of the strongest models in the codex SM at the moment.

If you build a space marines list you should bring at least 2 of these things with you.

Realstically why you would every take it over the stalker boggles the mind. Even hitting on 4's vs ground targets it will do more damage vs anything but a t8 target (and that isn't significant) However anything with the fly keyword is likely getting hit 6 times compared to one with the hunter - it's not even close.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 03:36:27


Post by: Vilehydra


Yeah, the stalker is just way more versatile (not that I'd really take either of them tbh) and most of the targets you want skyfire against aren't that tough to begin with.

As per dreadnoughts. If your playing defensively, just take ranged venerable dreads. If your that afraid of elite chargers give it a dreadnought CC weapon. Ironclads are only ever going to be worth it if your going to be applying heavy 2nd turn pressure.

As per Vindicators. Keep in mind that as soon as you lose one, your down to a really sub-par weapon profile. Also keep in mind that you can advance and still use the strategem IIRC. I've been thinking about using them to counter drone/character spam. Sure they're hitting characters on 5+ but with 5-6 characters in an aura bubble you might be able to snipe one or two of them. If your feeling REALLY CP Inefficient drop down an orbital for funsies afterwards


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 03:46:58


Post by: bort


Vindicators do make a very efficient unit for dealing with 1 important niche set of opponent units: The T5 melee beatsticks like Bullgryn. S10 and enough damage to probably 1 shot each target model means it can earn it's points back in a single shot vs a unit the rest of the army will struggle to wound.
Too bad their range is so terrible they probably won't survive to get the shot off vs their prime target and they're not good enough vs other units.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 12:41:21


Post by: grouchoben


Triple vindis has a few tricks up its sleeves. The Strat is pretty good, allowing you to drop mortal wounds in a bubble fairly accurately. In addition, you don't have to fulfill any normal requirements for shooting, so you can a) advance them on T1, b) not worry in the slightest if they get caught up in cc.

they form a pretty decent roadblock, and there's a chance your opponent might overly-prioritise them with their shooting.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 13:31:25


Post by: Azuza001


 grouchoben wrote:
Triple vindis has a few tricks up its sleeves. The Strat is pretty good, allowing you to drop mortal wounds in a bubble fairly accurately. In addition, you don't have to fulfill any normal requirements for shooting, so you can a) advance them on T1, b) not worry in the slightest if they get caught up in cc.

they form a pretty decent roadblock, and there's a chance your opponent might overly-prioritise them with their shooting.


This is exactly what i was thinking. Target saturation between the crusader, the trip vindicators, and the 2 rhinos with melta / plasma teams in it.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 14:48:21


Post by: grouchoben


Well I like the crusader with them, he's a perfect match. Not so sure about the rhino teams tbh. I think you'd be better off standing back with FW dreads, behind the crazed Vindis and some big intercessor vet squads but hey, everyone's got their own jam right? Good luck and let us know how it works out.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 15:21:10


Post by: CREEEEEEEEED


It just seems hard to justify a vindicator over a barebones predator for the small amount more points. Especially at triple, killshot is just as good as the vindicator strat and on a better platform.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 15:57:13


Post by: Azuza001


I run trip preds in my space wolves and yeah they are amazing there as well. Especially next to njal giving them -1 to hit and cover. But i think the big difference will be t7 of the pred vs t8 of the vindicators. I did consider running both but couldnt find a way to do that and have any meaningful level of all comers fighting ability.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 20:59:01


Post by: grouchoben


Their board position is vastly different though, and vindis can form bunch points, tie in CC and still 'shoot', and are T8. I agree that Preds when they are left alone are much better, but they make target priority so straight forward for your opponent. Board control, denial, LoS blocking and CC shooting are significant advantages. Not enough to make them competitive, but enough to make them tactically interesting, and cheeky to play.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 21:16:12


Post by: godardc


Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 21:19:02


Post by: Insectum7


 godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?


They sure feel that way, esp. with the point premium on them. Still, if you're playing on boards with enough terrain to give them LOS cover I think they'd be alright.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 21:27:19


Post by: Azuza001


The only way i see them valuable is in a space wolves force, preds at -1 to hit and a 2+ save due to cover are surprisingly resilient, you can get 2 or sometimes 3 turns with kill shot with proper target priority before you lose one.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/18 21:30:31


Post by: godardc


Azuza001 wrote:
The only way i see them valuable is in a space wolves force, preds at -1 to hit and a 2+ save due to cover are surprisingly resilient, you can get 2 or sometimes 3 turns with kill shot with proper target priority before you lose one.


Yeah that seems much more interesting, I'm quite jealous, and sad that GW hate us mini marines so much now. I'll do a test on the 5th July with three predators vs DG so I'll soon see.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 16:24:17


Post by: Valkyrie


Have a game planned tomorrow against a regular Tau opponent. His list has crippled most of my armies and he wants to practice for the London GT so it's going to be pretty mean, but need help planning my SM list as it's the only one that's beaten him.

His list

2x Commanders w. 4x FB
Shadowsun
Darkstrider
Ethereal
Cadre Fireblade

6x5 Firewarriors

2x5 Pathfinders
2x Riptides w. HBC + SMS
3x Firesight Marksmen

3x Broadsides w. HYMP + SMS

15x Shield Drones

His main tactic is to castle up and use a huge number of buffs on the Broadsides. The list has tabled my other lists including Raven Castellan Knights, Armoured Guard and Custodians, but my Marine list is the only one that's beaten it, partially due to a large degree of LoS-block and unlucky rolls on his part.

My list
Lias Issodon
Lieutenant
Librarian

2x10 Tacticals w. Lascannon, Plasma + Combi-Plas
10x Intercessors

10x Hellblasters
5x Devs w. ML
5x Devs w. HB
Leviathan Dreadnought w. Stormcannons

The RG tactic certainly helped but I highly doubt I could pull off another win with this list. What else could I add to it? I have the following units at my disposal in addition to the ones above.

10x Tacticals
10x Reivers
Various other Characters including Ancients, Chaplains, etc.
5x Termies w. CML
2x Dreadnoughts w. TL + CCW
5x Devs w. MM

Mechanised Guard including a Valdor

All 4 different Assassins

Wide variety of Custodes.

All Imperial Knights






Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 17:22:12


Post by: Azuza001


Target priority and playing the mission is very important in that fight. My mentor for 8th edition was the stores top tau player and i learned how to fight tau with necrons vs him.

What i learned was -

1. Target the fire warriors first. They have to die, and most tau players wont save a fire warrior with a drone, but they are the backbone of a tau force. Between the sheer number of overwatch shots they add and the range of their guns they have to go.

2. Once the firewarriors are no longer an issue ( remember that you dont have to kill a squad to make it no longer a threat) target drones next with any anti infantry weapons you have. Always target the drones before firing any anti tank weapons, every removed drone is one more las cannon that can get through.

3. Use close combat as a threat, not an actual thing. If your opponent thinks your going to be able to lock something important in cc he may move it away from an important objective.

Good luck!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 17:51:26


Post by: Xenomancers


 godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

No - predators are one of the worst choices we have. Even without strats the Vinidcator is better and is at least scary in certain situations. Plus they are a lot cheaper. Tripple vindy really helps the rest of your list. Because not killing one of those vindis is basically not an option for your opponent. Preds? Who cares...+1 to wound? I'm already rerolling all my wounds....Plus they are a lot easier to kill.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 18:12:03


Post by: Azuza001


Thanks for the input, i find +1 to wound and +1 dmg from 3 preds with autocannon / heavy bolters to be quite nasty myself.

For 1cp thats 6d3 str 7 (wounding t8+ on 4's, t7-on 3's) ap-1 d4 shots and 18 str 5 (wounding t6+ on 4's) ap-1 d2 shots. In the game of invunerables thats pretty nasty for a lot of vehicles to face. You should reliably kill 2 armigers with 3 preds with that setup.

But i also agree that vindicators put a lot more pressure on the enemy. They have to kill 1, its that simple. And even if they do then you have 2 really powerful cannons that should be able to deal with enemy vehicles easily enough as long as you roll average.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 19:08:52


Post by: Bharring


If you take 3 Preds, it's to force the opponent to kill one T1. Which means it's because you need him diverted from your other super-killy threats.

But if you can force them to put most of their dakka into taking out a single backfield tank, they'll have less dakka going into whatever else you took.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 19:47:57


Post by: Martel732


It doesn't divert enough dakka. And its a costly diversion at that.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 19:54:49


Post by: godardc


Vindicators, scary ? It's probably the only unit I haven't seen played since 8th dropped, with land speeders. The very moment 8th was launched, vindicators were doomed. Even the stratagem is garbage: disgustingly resilient stops MW, hordes of gaunts, guards and orks just laugh at 6 (on average) MW, and only at 24"... Only SM fear that. Oh, how the mighty have fallen ! And only if you can, after having spent your CP, hit on 4+...
I should give them a try then I guess !


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 21:17:57


Post by: Azuza001


So i was looking at something and realized the strat not only works even if the tank is in cc but also hurts friendlys as well as opponents. So i came up with the following for maximun lols....

Spoiler:



++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [38 PL, 1CP, 696pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [3CP]

Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait

Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom

Household Choice: Questor Imperialis
. House Hawkshroud

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber

Knight Gallant [20 PL, 352pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Landstrider

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [53 PL, 5CP, 809pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars

Detachment CP [5CP]

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 77pts]: Chainsword, Champion of Humanity, Master-crafted boltgun, Teeth of Terra, Warlord

The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts]

+ Troops +

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 87pts]
. 3x Initiate
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sword Brother: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

Vindicator [7 PL, 125pts]

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [31 PL, 4CP, 495pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [1CP]

+ HQ +

Techmarine [4 PL, 45pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Servo-arm

+ Heavy Support +

Predator [9 PL, 150pts]: Predator autocannon, Two Heavy Bolters

Predator [9 PL, 150pts]: Predator autocannon, Two Heavy Bolters

Predator [9 PL, 150pts]: Predator autocannon, Two Heavy Bolters

++ Total: [122 PL, 10CP, 2,000pts]



So the idea is maximum threat saturation, using the infantry to zone the enemy away from your fun toys.

If your able to the galant should be able to draw some fire quickly thanks to its ability to be an immediate threat. If it takes a bunch of wounds but doesnt die use the strat from vindicators to do 3d3 mortal wounds to it killing it yourself then pop strat to explode on a 4+ for even more lols.

Does it make sense? No. But it does lead to some stupid trolly fun.....


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 21:26:18


Post by: godardc


If you really try this, I wanna have the after action report !

The Crimson Fists chapter tactics, does it work on shooting attacks too ?
I really like all their rules and special stratagems, and what about the relic ? Does it benefit from the new rapid fire rules ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 21:36:32


Post by: Martel732


Yes c fists are pretty hot.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 21:52:43


Post by: godardc


So, how does plasma and rerolls of 1's and bolter drill work with their CT ?

I have a plasma gun.
Le'ts say I roll a one and a 2.
I have +1 for shooting due to my CT.
So I can't have a 1 and I don't die ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 21:55:00


Post by: Martel732


Yup. The modifier taketh away, but also giveth. Rerolls are always before mods.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 22:36:04


Post by: godardc


Wow that's strong !
Imagine small 2 or 3 men squad of veterans with plasma, they could totally be safe for overheating while shooting even small squad of elite ennemy infantry
Do you have any experience playing with or again Crimson Fists ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/19 23:02:42


Post by: Martel732


I've seem them in action. They do well enough vs hordes before they die anyway.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/20 00:22:30


Post by: Xenomancers


 godardc wrote:
Vindicators, scary ? It's probably the only unit I haven't seen played since 8th dropped, with land speeders. The very moment 8th was launched, vindicators were doomed. Even the stratagem is garbage: disgustingly resilient stops MW, hordes of gaunts, guards and orks just laugh at 6 (on average) MW, and only at 24"... Only SM fear that. Oh, how the mighty have fallen ! And only if you can, after having spent your CP, hit on 4+...
I should give them a try then I guess !

The stratagem is amazing. 3d3 mortal wounds in splash damage and you don't need to be eligible to shoot (so you can pop smoke) or have LOS to use it. It has a lot of value that isn't automatically apparent.

Plus on it's own vs a 5 man unit the vindi becomes d6 shots. Plus str 10 really hurts a lot of units. Being only 125 and being t8. The vindi is already superior to the pred. The stratagem is better too. Im really not trying to hype up ether option and they are both pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 godardc wrote:
So, how does plasma and rerolls of 1's and bolter drill work with their CT ?

I have a plasma gun.
Le'ts say I roll a one and a 2.
I have +1 for shooting due to my CT.
So I can't have a 1 and I don't die ?

3 man bike squads. Very hot with CF.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/20 00:42:46


Post by: godardc


Martel732 wrote:
I've seem them in action. They do well enough vs hordes before they die anyway.


I may give them a try one day haha


On another note, in order to catch my opponents (mainly DG, necrons and tyranids) by surprise, I just made this list:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [151 PL, 1,904pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Shield Eternal, Thunder hammer, Warlord

Chaplain Grimaldus [6 PL, 90pts]

The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts]

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [10 PL, 76pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun
. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

+ Elites +

Apothecary [3 PL, 55pts]

Chapter Ancient [4 PL, 76pts]: Power sword

Chapter Champion [4 PL, 69pts]: Boltgun, Relic blade

Company Veterans [8 PL, 80pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter
. . Boltgun/Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter
. . Boltgun/Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter
. . Boltgun/Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter
. . Boltgun/Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Storm bolter
. . Boltgun/Chainsword

Terminator Assault Squad [24 PL, 228pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. 2x Terminator w/THSS: 2x Storm shield, 2x Thunder hammer
. 3x Terminator w/x2LC: 3x Lightning Claw (Pair)

Terminator Squad [24 PL, 219pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
. 4x Terminator w/PF: 4x Power fist, 4x Storm bolter

Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 231pts]: Jump Pack, Melta bombs
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, Power maul
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, Power maul
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, Power maul
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, Power maul
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword, Thunder hammer

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 69pts]
. 2x Scout Biker: 2x Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 69pts]
. 2x Scout Biker: 2x Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [11 PL, 176pts]: Armorium Cherub
. 2x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

Thunderfire Cannon [6 PL, 92pts]
. Techmarine Gunner
. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

+ Dedicated Transport +

Drop Pod [5 PL, 65pts]: Storm bolter

++ Total: [151 PL, 1,904pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Obviously I didn't separate the two detachment but there would be 2 detachment (one batallion and one vanguard). The idea was to avoid vehicles and to play an assault heavy army.
So all the characters and the veterans into the pod.
Everyone that can in deepstrike (or maybe no, I would see depending on the game: flexibility !), And either T2 or T3 I can make a big deepstrike with most of my units grouped together, or no, as I have many units they don't HAVE to stay together.
I choose Black Templars to increase my chances to get charges.
Good combo with the cheap veterans, the characters and why not heroic intervention.
I guess the Ancient would work better with the terminators.
I have enough points and CP to get a culexus to protect me from smites spam and others psy chenanigans on addition of the BT stratagem.
The big vv squad should be two 5 men squad, ignore the fact they are only one single big unit.
I could put the BT helm on the Ancient and give him a 9 range for his ability.
Obviously it's not a highly competitive army, but could it work ?

It's pretty fun that I have every single model to play this army btw


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/20 18:59:37


Post by: ultimentra


No it will not work. Vanguard veterans suck major grox bung. I play BT and Ive tried them all sorts of ways. If you want an assault element take the sword brethren detachment from vigilus, helbrecht, and 5 company vets with power fists and storm shields.

Chaplain Grimaldus isnt that great these days, his ability doesnt work with -1 to hit.

Why bother wih a chapter champion when you have an emperors champion?

I could go on.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/21 00:27:41


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Don't take Power Fists on the Sword Brethren, take Thunder Hammers. You're already splurging points on them, might as well make them as strong as possible.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/21 03:06:21


Post by: Neophyte2012


 ultimentra wrote:
No it will not work. Vanguard veterans suck major grox bung. I play BT and Ive tried them all sorts of ways. If you want an assault element take the sword brethren detachment from vigilus, helbrecht, and 5 company vets with power fists and storm shields.

Chaplain Grimaldus isnt that great these days, his ability doesnt work with -1 to hit.

Why bother wih a chapter champion when you have an emperors champion?

I could go on.


If you want to take VV, take them in Ultramarine Victrix Guard detachment, they are really good when getting +1 to hit, and fight in the enemy's charge phase. The only concern is they get shot off the board, or those death explosion of the Knight they just smashed dead putting 6MW on them.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/21 15:00:12


Post by: Valkyrie


So bit of an update on my previous post regarding a Tau match.

I ran the same list as before, expect adding some Termies to make up the points. I know they're not the best choice, but I was hoping the Storm Bolter fire would help cut down a few Drones.

I was absolutely tabled.

We used ITC setups with 1st-floor-blocking LoS, but even with a very conservative setup I had no chance. His tactic each turn was simply:

1. Use Montka, advance everything into LoS*
2. Pop Markerlights
3. Pop Command and Control Node on the Broadsides.
4. Delete unit.

*Twice, using Shadowsun.

Lost the Hellblasters on turn 1, the Ancient's banner let them kill 3 Fire Warriors, nothing else. Next turn he reduced the Leviathan to 7 wounds, killed the Intercessors and a Tac Squad, turn 3 killed the Librarian, HB Devs and the other Tacs at which point I conceded. All in all I killed around 5 Shield Drones and 20 Fire Warriors.

No idea what the hell I could take to even stand a chance against this list, individually it's not too scary, but when you have advance/fire Broadsides rerolling all wounds, combined with 20+ Shield Drones it gets a bit on the ridiculous side.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/21 15:02:55


Post by: godardc


How did the terminators behave ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/21 15:31:36


Post by: Valkyrie


 godardc wrote:
How did the terminators behave ?


Used his Drones to restrict my DS, they dropped in, killed a few Fire Warriors thanks to LoS trickery on his part, all killed next turn by the Riptide. 3 were able to fire with the Ancient and killed 2 Drones.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/21 15:46:59


Post by: Neophyte2012


 Valkyrie wrote:
So bit of an update on my previous post regarding a Tau match.

I ran the same list as before, expect adding some Termies to make up the points. I know they're not the best choice, but I was hoping the Storm Bolter fire would help cut down a few Drones.

I was absolutely tabled.

We used ITC setups with 1st-floor-blocking LoS, but even with a very conservative setup I had no chance. His tactic each turn was simply:

1. Use Montka, advance everything into LoS*
2. Pop Markerlights
3. Pop Command and Control Node on the Broadsides.
4. Delete unit.

*Twice, using Shadowsun.

Lost the Hellblasters on turn 1, the Ancient's banner let them kill 3 Fire Warriors, nothing else. Next turn he reduced the Leviathan to 7 wounds, killed the Intercessors and a Tac Squad, turn 3 killed the Librarian, HB Devs and the other Tacs at which point I conceded. All in all I killed around 5 Shield Drones and 20 Fire Warriors.

No idea what the hell I could take to even stand a chance against this list, individually it's not too scary, but when you have advance/fire Broadsides rerolling all wounds, combined with 20+ Shield Drones it gets a bit on the ridiculous side.


Play your army as Ravenguard? -1 to hit sounds like would ruinrights day. Most of their weapons carried by Broadsides will naturally hit on 4+ right? so make them hit on 5+ is the way to make them look less scary.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/21 17:09:46


Post by: Martel732


Mortars and wyverns to remove drones.

Dont use hellblasters. You know know why.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/22 13:49:15


Post by: Blood Hawk


 Valkyrie wrote:
So bit of an update on my previous post regarding a Tau match.

I ran the same list as before, expect adding some Termies to make up the points. I know they're not the best choice, but I was hoping the Storm Bolter fire would help cut down a few Drones.

I was absolutely tabled.

We used ITC setups with 1st-floor-blocking LoS, but even with a very conservative setup I had no chance. His tactic each turn was simply:

1. Use Montka, advance everything into LoS*
2. Pop Markerlights
3. Pop Command and Control Node on the Broadsides.
4. Delete unit.

*Twice, using Shadowsun.

Lost the Hellblasters on turn 1, the Ancient's banner let them kill 3 Fire Warriors, nothing else. Next turn he reduced the Leviathan to 7 wounds, killed the Intercessors and a Tac Squad, turn 3 killed the Librarian, HB Devs and the other Tacs at which point I conceded. All in all I killed around 5 Shield Drones and 20 Fire Warriors.

No idea what the hell I could take to even stand a chance against this list, individually it's not too scary, but when you have advance/fire Broadsides rerolling all wounds, combined with 20+ Shield Drones it gets a bit on the ridiculous side.

Shadowsun doesn't let you use Montka twice. Her ability "Genius of Kauyon" lets her declare Kauyon even if Kauyon or Mont'ka has already been declared. The only way your opponent can declare Mont'ka twice is if he takes Commander Farsight and makes those units Farsight Enclaves.

Broadsides are really vulnerable to being tied up in melee. They are battlesuits without fly. If you tie them up in melee they can't fall back and shoot. Getting into melee with broadsides can be a pain but it can be done.

Also from the units you are listing that were killed it seems you brought lots of shorter range firepower. Broadsides are slow and only have 36" range. It is possible to just bring longer range guns and just sit out of range.

The broadside blob is good but does have weaknesses.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/23 01:10:08


Post by: godardc


Have you tried the sicaran punisher ? Quite cheap, predator priced, and have an honest firepower: up to 27 heavy bolter shots, some rerolling 1 to wound.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/23 05:54:56


Post by: grouchoben


Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/23 23:12:03


Post by: Valkyrie


Neophyte2012 wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
So bit of an update on my previous post regarding a Tau match.

I ran the same list as before, expect adding some Termies to make up the points. I know they're not the best choice, but I was hoping the Storm Bolter fire would help cut down a few Drones.

I was absolutely tabled.

We used ITC setups with 1st-floor-blocking LoS, but even with a very conservative setup I had no chance. His tactic each turn was simply:

1. Use Montka, advance everything into LoS*
2. Pop Markerlights
3. Pop Command and Control Node on the Broadsides.
4. Delete unit.

*Twice, using Shadowsun.

Lost the Hellblasters on turn 1, the Ancient's banner let them kill 3 Fire Warriors, nothing else. Next turn he reduced the Leviathan to 7 wounds, killed the Intercessors and a Tac Squad, turn 3 killed the Librarian, HB Devs and the other Tacs at which point I conceded. All in all I killed around 5 Shield Drones and 20 Fire Warriors.

No idea what the hell I could take to even stand a chance against this list, individually it's not too scary, but when you have advance/fire Broadsides rerolling all wounds, combined with 20+ Shield Drones it gets a bit on the ridiculous side.


Play your army as Ravenguard? -1 to hit sounds like would ruinrights day. Most of their weapons carried by Broadsides will naturally hit on 4+ right? so make them hit on 5+ is the way to make them look less scary.



That's exactly what I was running, the -1 really didn't do much once he had 5+ Markerlights on my guys.


Blood Hawk wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
So bit of an update on my previous post regarding a Tau match.

I ran the same list as before, expect adding some Termies to make up the points. I know they're not the best choice, but I was hoping the Storm Bolter fire would help cut down a few Drones.

I was absolutely tabled.

We used ITC setups with 1st-floor-blocking LoS, but even with a very conservative setup I had no chance. His tactic each turn was simply:

1. Use Montka, advance everything into LoS*
2. Pop Markerlights
3. Pop Command and Control Node on the Broadsides.
4. Delete unit.

*Twice, using Shadowsun.

Lost the Hellblasters on turn 1, the Ancient's banner let them kill 3 Fire Warriors, nothing else. Next turn he reduced the Leviathan to 7 wounds, killed the Intercessors and a Tac Squad, turn 3 killed the Librarian, HB Devs and the other Tacs at which point I conceded. All in all I killed around 5 Shield Drones and 20 Fire Warriors.

No idea what the hell I could take to even stand a chance against this list, individually it's not too scary, but when you have advance/fire Broadsides rerolling all wounds, combined with 20+ Shield Drones it gets a bit on the ridiculous side.

Shadowsun doesn't let you use Montka twice. Her ability "Genius of Kauyon" lets her declare Kauyon even if Kauyon or Mont'ka has already been declared. The only way your opponent can declare Mont'ka twice is if he takes Commander Farsight and makes those units Farsight Enclaves.

Broadsides are really vulnerable to being tied up in melee. They are battlesuits without fly. If you tie them up in melee they can't fall back and shoot. Getting into melee with broadsides can be a pain but it can be done.

Also from the units you are listing that were killed it seems you brought lots of shorter range firepower. Broadsides are slow and only have 36" range. It is possible to just bring longer range guns and just sit out of range.

The broadside blob is good but does have weaknesses.


My mistake on the Commander, he did use Shadowsun but his choice of Mont'ka or Kau'yon was legal.

Getting close was very difficult, mainly as he was bubblewrapping his Broadsides with Drones and Fire Warriors.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/24 00:19:09


Post by: Martel732


Kill all the markerlights first. Rule #1.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/24 01:17:25


Post by: Blood Hawk


 Valkyrie wrote:
Blood Hawk wrote:Shadowsun doesn't let you use Montka twice. Her ability "Genius of Kauyon" lets her declare Kauyon even if Kauyon or Mont'ka has already been declared. The only way your opponent can declare Mont'ka twice is if he takes Commander Farsight and makes those units Farsight Enclaves.

Broadsides are really vulnerable to being tied up in melee. They are battlesuits without fly. If you tie them up in melee they can't fall back and shoot. Getting into melee with broadsides can be a pain but it can be done.

Also from the units you are listing that were killed it seems you brought lots of shorter range firepower. Broadsides are slow and only have 36" range. It is possible to just bring longer range guns and just sit out of range.

The broadside blob is good but does have weaknesses.


My mistake on the Commander, he did use Shadowsun but his choice of Mont'ka or Kau'yon was legal.

Getting close was very difficult, mainly as he was bubblewrapping his Broadsides with Drones and Fire Warriors.




I am confused. Did he declare mont'ka twice? All Tau players can use Master of War once per game to declare Kauyon or Mont'ka. Shadowsun can use Kauyon once per game as well. So if he is playing Tau sept he can't Mont'ka twice.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/24 14:40:48


Post by: Valkyrie


 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Blood Hawk wrote:Shadowsun doesn't let you use Montka twice. Her ability "Genius of Kauyon" lets her declare Kauyon even if Kauyon or Mont'ka has already been declared. The only way your opponent can declare Mont'ka twice is if he takes Commander Farsight and makes those units Farsight Enclaves.

Broadsides are really vulnerable to being tied up in melee. They are battlesuits without fly. If you tie them up in melee they can't fall back and shoot. Getting into melee with broadsides can be a pain but it can be done.

Also from the units you are listing that were killed it seems you brought lots of shorter range firepower. Broadsides are slow and only have 36" range. It is possible to just bring longer range guns and just sit out of range.

The broadside blob is good but does have weaknesses.


My mistake on the Commander, he did use Shadowsun but his choice of Mont'ka or Kau'yon was legal.

Getting close was very difficult, mainly as he was bubblewrapping his Broadsides with Drones and Fire Warriors.




I am confused. Did he declare mont'ka twice? All Tau players can use Master of War once per game to declare Kauyon or Mont'ka. Shadowsun can use Kauyon once per game as well. So if he is playing Tau sept he can't Mont'ka twice.


Apologies for the confusion, he did the following actions in this order:

1. Use Mont'ka to advance with everything (clustered around Shadowsun) to get in LoS.
2. Used Kauyon with Shadowsun next turn for the reroll bonus.

Because of the Mont'ka move he had pretty much locked down most of the centre of the board. Whichever way I approached him I'd have to deal with at least 2 turns of Broadside/Riptide fire. While I easily took out his Pathfinders he still had Markerlights with 3x Sac'ea Firesights, 1x Fireblade and Darkstrider. Couldn't shoot them thanks to Character Targeting, and Networked Markerlight/Orbital Marketlight Uplink ensured a lot of my units were lit up for him


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/30 05:03:09


Post by: Traceoftoxin


3 captains, 1 LT (Upgrade 1 captain to CM)

4x5 scouts
2x5 intercessors

4x Repulsor/Executioners

Or

Guilliman
2 captains

3x5 scouts

4x Repulsor/Executioners


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/30 13:40:19


Post by: Azuza001


Are you suggesting 4 repulsers to fight tau? Thats a horrible idea.

First a lot of places do the rule of 3, so it may not even be an option. Even if it is tau have some of the best anti tank units with massive range and little cost (hello mr broadside). A standard tau list should be able to kill 2 of those repulsers before they are even in range if the tau player knows what they are doing.

Yeah, dont try that... unless you actually already own those models then why not, its just a game. But dont spend money on those kinds of things thinking your going to be able to beat tau with them.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/30 20:20:41


Post by: Lemondish


Azuza001 wrote:
Are you suggesting 4 repulsers to fight tau? Thats a horrible idea.

First a lot of places do the rule of 3, so it may not even be an option. Even if it is tau have some of the best anti tank units with massive range and little cost (hello mr broadside). A standard tau list should be able to kill 2 of those repulsers before they are even in range if the tau player knows what they are doing.

Yeah, dont try that... unless you actually already own those models then why not, its just a game. But dont spend money on those kinds of things thinking your going to be able to beat tau with them.


Repulsors get around the rule of 3 because they're Dedicated Transports.

And the sheer volume of firepower they kick out would work well.

It may just be my local meta, but most of the Tau players I've played seem to have a bit of trouble laying down enough fire fast enough against multiple armoured threats.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/30 21:29:10


Post by: stratigo


Azuza001 wrote:
Are you suggesting 4 repulsers to fight tau? Thats a horrible idea.

First a lot of places do the rule of 3, so it may not even be an option. Even if it is tau have some of the best anti tank units with massive range and little cost (hello mr broadside). A standard tau list should be able to kill 2 of those repulsers before they are even in range if the tau player knows what they are doing.

Yeah, dont try that... unless you actually already own those models then why not, its just a game. But dont spend money on those kinds of things thinking your going to be able to beat tau with them.


The Gman rupulsor list is gonna be based entirely on who gets first turn.

So, like, the worst sort of 40k


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/30 22:20:32


Post by: Lemondish


stratigo wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
Are you suggesting 4 repulsers to fight tau? Thats a horrible idea.

First a lot of places do the rule of 3, so it may not even be an option. Even if it is tau have some of the best anti tank units with massive range and little cost (hello mr broadside). A standard tau list should be able to kill 2 of those repulsers before they are even in range if the tau player knows what they are doing.

Yeah, dont try that... unless you actually already own those models then why not, its just a game. But dont spend money on those kinds of things thinking your going to be able to beat tau with them.


The Gman rupulsor list is gonna be based entirely on who gets first turn.

So, like, the worst sort of 40k


Going second didn't slow down the Throne of War GT winner.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/06/30 22:44:58


Post by: Azuza001


Ah, i thought they were heavy support like land raiders, thats my mistake. But yeah, set up the table, roll for deployment, put your stuff on the table, roll for first turn and if you dont get it gg? Thats horrible 40k playing.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 00:21:31


Post by: Coolyo294


Hey all, looking for feedback on my list and what i should add/get rid of. I mostly play against my friend's admech, tyranids, or genestealer cults.

The only real caveat is that it's my 30k army so I want to avoid anything that isn't cross compatible with Age of Darkness, except for reasonable stuff like scouts or scout bikes.

1,999 points, 9 CP
Chapter Tactic: Salamanders


Battalion Detachment

HQ
Captain – 74 - Chapter Master, Storm of Fire warlord trait
Lieutenant – 60

• Troops
Tactical Squad – 130
Tactical Squad – 130
Tactical Squad – 130

• Elites:
Venerable Dreadnought – Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannons – 120
Relic Contemptor Dreadnought – 2x Twin Autocannons – 170

• Heavy Support
Predator – Autocannon, Lascannons, Storm Bolter – 180
Predator – Autocannon, Lascannons, Storm Bolter – 180
Devastator Squad – Missile Launchers, Armorium Cherub – 150

Spearhead Detachment

HQ
Lieutenant – 60

• Heavy Support
Rapier – Quad Mortar – 85
Rapier – Quad Mortar – 85
Rapier – Quad Mortar – 85
Devastator Squad – Missile Launchers, Armorium Cherub – 150


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 00:25:26


Post by: stratigo


 Xenomancers wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

No - predators are one of the worst choices we have. Even without strats the Vinidcator is better and is at least scary in certain situations. Plus they are a lot cheaper. Tripple vindy really helps the rest of your list. Because not killing one of those vindis is basically not an option for your opponent. Preds? Who cares...+1 to wound? I'm already rerolling all my wounds....Plus they are a lot easier to kill.


Predators are significantly better than vindis.

But, again, you need three, plus other tanks. Predators work when your army is all armor and few infantry.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 05:25:25


Post by: Rogerio134134


So I've been using my crimson fists as Deathwatch but fancy actually using them as space marines for once. Here's a quick run down of my list.

Battalion - crimson fists

Pedro Kantor

Primaris lt with auto bolter

5 infiltrators
5 intercessors
5 intercessors
5 intercessors

3 plasma inceptors

5 hellblasters
5 hellblasters

Repulsor with Gatling cannons and lascannon
Repulsor with Gatling cannons and lascannon

Spearhead detachment

Smash captain with thunder hammer

Redemptor with Gatling cannons
Primaris ancient with banner of emperor ascendant
3 aggressors

----

Very similar list to what I currently use with my Deathwatch and the plan I normally use is putn everything together in a big blob and match it forward and then deepstrike a hard hitting unit in behind the enemy.

So in this force I'll be placing the aggressors and hellblasters inside the repulsors to keep them safe at the start of the game and slowly move everything forward within Kantor and the banners aura too get all re roll hits and return fire on death.

Tempted to make them a liberator strike force detachment as well to gain the decent stratagems from that too.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 05:50:36


Post by: Xenomancers


 grouchoben wrote:
Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.

Uhhh - yeah. Don't even bother playing against tau with space marines. It is a joke of a game.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 09:02:45


Post by: stratigo


 Xenomancers wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.

Uhhh - yeah. Don't even bother playing against tau with space marines. It is a joke of a game.


A gman gunline can kill the big suits if you get first turn before they amp into 3 plus invuls. But its first turn warhammer.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 13:32:33


Post by: Martel732


They can still soak off on the drones, though. Also, they can dial up 1+ armor on them turn 1 if they are concerned.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 16:01:09


Post by: Lemondish


Rogerio134134 wrote:
So I've been using my crimson fists as Deathwatch but fancy actually using them as space marines for once. Here's a quick run down of my list.

Battalion - crimson fists

Pedro Kantor

Primaris lt with auto bolter

5 infiltrators
5 intercessors
5 intercessors
5 intercessors

3 plasma inceptors

5 hellblasters
5 hellblasters

Repulsor with Gatling cannons and lascannon
Repulsor with Gatling cannons and lascannon

Spearhead detachment

Smash captain with thunder hammer

Redemptor with Gatling cannons
Primaris ancient with banner of emperor ascendant
3 aggressors

----

Very similar list to what I currently use with my Deathwatch and the plan I normally use is putn everything together in a big blob and match it forward and then deepstrike a hard hitting unit in behind the enemy.

So in this force I'll be placing the aggressors and hellblasters inside the repulsors to keep them safe at the start of the game and slowly move everything forward within Kantor and the banners aura too get all re roll hits and return fire on death.

Tempted to make them a liberator strike force detachment as well to gain the decent stratagems from that too.


Few points and questions - it's totally pedantic, but that's a Vanguard Detachment not a Spearhead

Definitely worth it to make those Hellblasters a full 10 man instead of 2 MSU squads if you go with the Liberator detachment. Can always combat squad if you need to. The bigger squad makes those nice specialist detachment strats better.

A smash captain with a thunder hammer isn't the best choice for Crimson Fists because you can use the Fist of Vengeance relic to hit as hard as a Thunder Hammer, but without the penalty to hit, and it's cheaper. Another fun variant I've seen is more of a blender style Warlord of a Captain on a bike with a Thunder Hammer, Chainsword swapped to teeth of terra, and the the one warlord trait that gives you more attacks if you're surrounded. Throws out a ton of attacks and is super fun.

I'm not entirely sure those Infiltrators will do much without support. They're expensive, but committing to them in numbers gives you some really powerful tricks and tools against a variety of different armies - they also like having support from their HQs. I'm just not sure a single unit of them will achieve much. Give it a shot though and let us know!







Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 16:10:53


Post by: Xenomancers


stratigo wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.

Uhhh - yeah. Don't even bother playing against tau with space marines. It is a joke of a game.


A gman gunline can kill the big suits if you get first turn before they amp into 3 plus invuls. But its first turn warhammer.

Yeah thats what you are gonna try to do. But each riptide/ broadside will have at least 12 drones supporting them. Unless you brought 3 whirlwinds or thunderfire cannons you literally can not win. Tank bolters with the 2+ save and put lascannons on the drones. Meanwhile. Tau are killing about 1/3 of your army a turn.

You might have a chance if they have no where to hide a drone. But hiding a drone really isn't that hard.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 17:16:05


Post by: Lemondish


 Xenomancers wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.

Uhhh - yeah. Don't even bother playing against tau with space marines. It is a joke of a game.


A gman gunline can kill the big suits if you get first turn before they amp into 3 plus invuls. But its first turn warhammer.

Yeah thats what you are gonna try to do. But each riptide/ broadside will have at least 12 drones supporting them. Unless you brought 3 whirlwinds or thunderfire cannons you literally can not win. Tank bolters with the 2+ save and put lascannons on the drones. Meanwhile. Tau are killing about 1/3 of your army a turn.

You might have a chance if they have no where to hide a drone. But hiding a drone really isn't that hard.


"Literally can not win"


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 19:17:10


Post by: Xenomancers


Lemondish wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
Tau sept is on another level, and you'll be extremely hard-pressed to match them in the hands of an okay player with just SM. That's the truth of the matter. ... I honestly think their point pricing is a bit skewed.

Uhhh - yeah. Don't even bother playing against tau with space marines. It is a joke of a game.


A gman gunline can kill the big suits if you get first turn before they amp into 3 plus invuls. But its first turn warhammer.

Yeah thats what you are gonna try to do. But each riptide/ broadside will have at least 12 drones supporting them. Unless you brought 3 whirlwinds or thunderfire cannons you literally can not win. Tank bolters with the 2+ save and put lascannons on the drones. Meanwhile. Tau are killing about 1/3 of your army a turn.

You might have a chance if they have no where to hide a drone. But hiding a drone really isn't that hard.


"Literally can not win"

Let me break it down here.
Tau have 1+ saves in cover on both riptides and broadsides. You are shooting mostly ap-0/1 and single shot anti tank that has decent ap-2 or 3.
So ether way hes taking 2+ saves. 2+ saves to put the wounds on the drones and 2+ saves for having a 1+ save in cover. Sure eventually hell run out of drones. You run out of lascannons before they do though.
When he shoots at you - hes ignoring cover with predominantly ap-2. So you get 5+ saves and hes got more shots.
Like is it that hard to figure you can't win in this scenario?
2+ saves vs 5+ saves...who wins?



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 19:46:31


Post by: Lemondish


I've won against Tau. Lots of people have. You see, the key to winning at this game is to actually play it. Only then you'll see there's more to it than a simplified one to one comparison.
I know you've previously said you don't play, so I understand there are factors involved that are a lot harder to come to grips with. You simply haven't yet modeled them into your assessment.

So you're factually incorrect. Try again, bub


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 19:55:58


Post by: Bharring



2+ saves vs 5+ saves...who wins?

When it's Marines with the 2+ and Xenos/IG/etc with the 5+, Xenos/IG/etc?
When it's Marines with the 5+ and Xenos/IG/etc with the 2+, Xenos/IG/etc?

Not sure how that works so well.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 20:31:33


Post by: Xenomancers


Points dude. Points. Marine stuff is expensive. Infantry are 4 points.

This is interaction here is specific to the fact that drones make single shot weapons useless. Most xenos units are not single shot variety and if they are - they are mobile and able to get around the drone problem. marines lists literally can not. Because they don't have to tools to deal with the problem.

You can jsut dump plasma into them. But low and behold! The power of on demand -1 to hit. The commander is just going to make the squad kill itself with neuroweb system jammer.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 21:13:27


Post by: Mandragola


Nowadays people are playing with things called "missions". Tau aren't particularly good at them, because they tend to involve capturing objectives outside of the Tau deployment zone - where no Tau wants to be.

Tau are always a nasty opponent but with some LoS blocking terrain and the CA18 missions they are entirely beatable.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 21:24:15


Post by: Martel732


That being said, dead units don't score objectives. I don't like the reliance on LoS blockers. It seems like shooting is inherently too good if we have to randomly turn it off for free every match.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 21:41:30


Post by: Xenomancers


Mandragola wrote:
Nowadays people are playing with things called "missions". Tau aren't particularly good at them, because they tend to involve capturing objectives outside of the Tau deployment zone - where no Tau wants to be.

Tau are always a nasty opponent but with some LoS blocking terrain and the CA18 missions they are entirely beatable.


Yes they are beatable. Harlequins do particularly well against them because they can turn off overwatch. So do eldar because the wave serpent is really durable against tau shooting and can tie units up after turn 1 and they can take hostages with shinning spears and their own on demand -1 tot hit against them. Guard do really well against them because of their huge amount of LOS ignoring weapons and not to mention they actually outrange tau in most situations. They aren't beatable with marines though. Which is all I was saying.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 21:59:50


Post by: Rogerio134134


Lemondish wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
So I've been using my crimson fists as Deathwatch but fancy actually using them as space marines for once. Here's a quick run down of my list.

Battalion - crimson fists

Pedro Kantor

Primaris lt with auto bolter

5 infiltrators
5 intercessors
5 intercessors
5 intercessors

3 plasma inceptors

5 hellblasters
5 hellblasters

Repulsor with Gatling cannons and lascannon
Repulsor with Gatling cannons and lascannon

Spearhead detachment

Smash captain with thunder hammer

Redemptor with Gatling cannons
Primaris ancient with banner of emperor ascendant
3 aggressors

----

Very similar list to what I currently use with my Deathwatch and the plan I normally use is putn everything together in a big blob and match it forward and then deepstrike a hard hitting unit in behind the enemy.

So in this force I'll be placing the aggressors and hellblasters inside the repulsors to keep them safe at the start of the game and slowly move everything forward within Kantor and the banners aura too get all re roll hits and return fire on death.

Tempted to make them a liberator strike force detachment as well to gain the decent stratagems from that too.


Few points and questions - it's totally pedantic, but that's a Vanguard Detachment not a Spearhead

Definitely worth it to make those Hellblasters a full 10 man instead of 2 MSU squads if you go with the Liberator detachment. Can always combat squad if you need to. The bigger squad makes those nice specialist detachment strats better.

A smash captain with a thunder hammer isn't the best choice for Crimson Fists because you can use the Fist of Vengeance relic to hit as hard as a Thunder Hammer, but without the penalty to hit, and it's cheaper. Another fun variant I've seen is more of a blender style Warlord of a Captain on a bike with a Thunder Hammer, Chainsword swapped to teeth of terra, and the the one warlord trait that gives you more attacks if you're surrounded. Throws out a ton of attacks and is super fun.

I'm not entirely sure those Infiltrators will do much without support. They're expensive, but committing to them in numbers gives you some really powerful tricks and tools against a variety of different armies - they also like having support from their HQs. I'm just not sure a single unit of them will achieve much. Give it a shot though and let us know!







Cheers bud I always use a smash captain normally to come in with the inceptors and he does well but ill bare in mind the power fist captain.

Infiltrators I agree on, may just use more intercessors.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/01 23:10:59


Post by: Mandragola


I run a Primaris captain with the fist of vengance. He's cheap enough at 92 points to mostly sit around buffing my repulsors, and then batter anything that comes into melee range. Ideally he'd have a Lieutenant and Librarian to buff him (might of heroes and null zone) but even without he's a true beatstick. 5 attacks hitting on 2s is way better than 4 hitting on 3s.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 01:24:31


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
That being said, dead units don't score objectives. I don't like the reliance on LoS blockers. It seems like shooting is inherently too good if we have to randomly turn it off for free every match.
LOS blocking favors tau in most cases too. Most units fly so can just hop over obstructions. SMS are a great weapon that doesn't need LOS. Plus drones out of LOS are unmanageable without tons of ignore LOS. Really I think drones need a rule where they have to be within LOS of the shooting unit to be used to block shots. Then marines have a chance. Because they have plenty of anti infantry weapons. They just can't shoot them at the correct targets against tau in most cases.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 09:05:08


Post by: grouchoben


Mandragola's right, SM often have the edge in playing the mission. I've beaten pretty good Tau lists, but with 2 marines left on the board. They will decimate you. The question is, can you rack up enough points to thumb your nose at them over the piles of your soldiers?

Of course, all this assumes that your Tau opponent hasn't brought some movement in their list. They have good movement and DS if they want it, but the allure of more über dakka is hard to resist, and the balance is tricky to achieve as far as I can see.

Really, I think against a well played Tau sept list, Gman lists are the only ones that might be viable. Hardly 'insight of the year', I know.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 13:51:09


Post by: Bharring


When facing a gunline I can't dislodge, I can usually out-mission them. I'll end the match with far less on the board, but they'll have trouble holding ground outside their gunline.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 14:55:14


Post by: Lemondish


Martel732 wrote:
That being said, dead units don't score objectives. I don't like the reliance on LoS blockers. It seems like shooting is inherently too good if we have to randomly turn it off for free every match.


If there was ever a single thing that could be described as being the "wrong" way to play 40k, planet bowling ball would definitely be it.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 15:23:32


Post by: Martel732


Seems like an argument for shooting being way too good.



Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 16:52:36


Post by: Lemondish


Martel732 wrote:
Seems like an argument for shooting being way too good.





Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 17:03:33


Post by: Martel732


Just saying. Why is low terrain so bad, then? You don't like it? What real function does a huge amount of terrain serve, then?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 17:43:33


Post by: Bharring


Variability.

We can run simple simulations to calculate the result of simple standoff firefights. Those will mirror exactly what you should expect on Planet Bowling Ball.

But, no two tables should be identical for terrain. A cunning maneuver one game that let you LOS his firebase while still hitting his skirmishers/chaff will simply not be an option next game, because the terrain is different/in different spots.

The more terrain, the more it varies. A gunline on a very terrain-dense board will have a ton of overlapping blindspots. Those blindspots give you options.

Last time I faced an IG gunline, they got Hammer & Anvil - basically an additional free turn of shooting before I could do anything. The terrain was dense enough such that until bottom of 2,only a couple units could fire at only my most durable units, which had cover. On Planet Bowling Ball, they could just have shot whatever whenever from wherever.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 17:44:54


Post by: Martel732


That's a fancy way of saying shooting is too good. Therefore, we need random free things in the game that turn it off.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 18:25:17


Post by: Bharring


No, not at all.

The same argument holds whether it's Shooting or CC that's too good. The biggest difference is that CC tends to prefer LOS-blocking terrain, whereas Shooting prefers impassible but not LOS-blocking terrain.

Even if/when CC is too good, terrain provides variability. Without it, it's not much more complicated to simulate the results.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 18:26:46


Post by: Lemondish


Martel732 wrote:
That's a fancy way of saying shooting is too good. Therefore, we need random free things in the game that turn it off.


I think you've hit your head a little too hard.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 18:30:49


Post by: Martel732


Bharring wrote:
No, not at all.

The same argument holds whether it's Shooting or CC that's too good. The biggest difference is that CC tends to prefer LOS-blocking terrain, whereas Shooting prefers impassible but not LOS-blocking terrain.

Even if/when CC is too good, terrain provides variability. Without it, it's not much more complicated to simulate the results.


If you say so.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 19:52:25


Post by: Insectum7


Martel732 wrote:
Seems like an argument for shooting being way too good.

Unbelievable.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 20:23:06


Post by: Xenomancers


changemod wrote:
Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?

Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?

Well it did get nerfed. Meanwhile tank commanders got buffed. Fancy that.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 20:31:53


Post by: Insectum7


 Xenomancers wrote:
changemod wrote:
Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?

Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?

Well it did get nerfed. Meanwhile tank commanders got buffed. Fancy that.

That post is from 2017.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 21:28:58


Post by: Xenomancers


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
changemod wrote:
Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?

Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?

Well it did get nerfed. Meanwhile tank commanders got buffed. Fancy that.

That post is from 2017.

Not sure how I ended up there. Though it is still funny.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 22:12:17


Post by: godardc


stratigo wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

No - predators are one of the worst choices we have. Even without strats the Vinidcator is better and is at least scary in certain situations. Plus they are a lot cheaper. Tripple vindy really helps the rest of your list. Because not killing one of those vindis is basically not an option for your opponent. Preds? Who cares...+1 to wound? I'm already rerolling all my wounds....Plus they are a lot easier to kill.


Predators are significantly better than vindis.

But, again, you need three, plus other tanks. Predators work when your army is all armor and few infantry.


But too much armor and you are vulnerable to T1 and T2 assaults. Especially my friend playing kraken kids...
It's difficult to balance things out !


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/02 23:36:21


Post by: BrianDavion


Martel732 wrote:
That's a fancy way of saying shooting is too good. Therefore, we need random free things in the game that turn it off.


I bet you think limits on charge distance is just GW nerfing melee because it's too good otherwise too eh?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 00:37:49


Post by: Martel732


Hardly. I just dont understand the endless harping on terrain. Terrain is free and random. You can never count on it.

Insisting on los blockers sure seems like a concession that shooting is too strong.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 01:59:32


Post by: Insectum7


Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I just dont understand the endless harping on terrain. Terrain is free and random. You can never count on it.

Insisting on los blockers sure seems like a concession that shooting is too strong.


The game is meant to be played with terrain. The points values are balanced with terrain in mind. Every battle report GW has ever done with 40k has included terrain. It's a wargame, and you would expect units to see their value increase/decrease with terrain. In fact, it's one of the reasons why 40k can't be (and shouldn't be) "perfectly balanced." It also makes perfect sense that an army focussed on shooting would have an advantage over an army focussed on punching you, in an open field at some distance, because duh.

In addition, YOU are responsible in no small part for the types of tables you game on.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 11:36:24


Post by: Mandragola


Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I just dont understand the endless harping on terrain. Terrain is free and random. You can never count on it.

Insisting on los blockers sure seems like a concession that shooting is too strong.

Seriously? If there’s not enough terrain then shooty armies will benefit, because they can shoot anything they want. Too much and melee armies will benefit because they won’t be shot. You therefore want a decent amount of terrain so as to have fair and interesting games. This is obvious.

It’s totally reasonable to have a fair set up of terrain that makes for interesting games featuring movement, rather than simply deciding games between two gunlines by whoever wins the roll for first turn. I don’t play this game just to flip a coin to see who wins.

You’re wrong to say that terrain is a random factor. Tournaments will usually publish their terrain set ups in advance so you can prepare for it. You know what terrain you have in your own collection or what your local club has. So you can design your army to work with the conditions you’ll be facing, say by taking more stuff that ignores LoS if there’s a lot of stuff that blocks it.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 13:28:36


Post by: Bharring


Terrain isn't a single random factor; it's a collection of tons of partially-independent factors. Which means that, while any individual one facet might be unpredictable, there's a great deal of consistency on the whole.

That's why relying on multiple random factors is better than relying no a single random factor.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 13:30:07


Post by: Martel732


And there's the LoS blocking/IG effect. I guess it's not common enough to factor in.

I haven't seen that many events that publish ahead of time, but I've never looked at the big ones.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 13:51:13


Post by: Xenomancers


 godardc wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

No - predators are one of the worst choices we have. Even without strats the Vinidcator is better and is at least scary in certain situations. Plus they are a lot cheaper. Tripple vindy really helps the rest of your list. Because not killing one of those vindis is basically not an option for your opponent. Preds? Who cares...+1 to wound? I'm already rerolling all my wounds....Plus they are a lot easier to kill.


Predators are significantly better than vindis.

But, again, you need three, plus other tanks. Predators work when your army is all armor and few infantry.


But too much armor and you are vulnerable to T1 and T2 assaults. Especially my friend playing kraken kids...
It's difficult to balance things out !

This is one advantage vindis have over preds. You have to actually kill one of them to turn them off. You can fall back and still use their stratagem.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 15:11:34


Post by: Nightlord1987


LOS (and ITC guidelines) have made Ignore LOS weapons like Bassies, Wyverns, more useful.

It took my PBC like 4 turns of lobbing flem to finally kill a unit of Scouts hidden behind a solid wall.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 15:42:58


Post by: Mandragola


Yeah indirect fire weapons do exist, but they're less effective than direct fire guns. So if a player spends their points on wyverns to ignore terrain they'll have less firepower than if they'd taken tank commanders on planet bowling ball. The terrain is still doing its job.

There's certainly variation in how much cover there'll be, but it affects everyone. A shooty player who brings only direct fire guns will lose missions with lots of LoS-blocking terrain. A good player will therefore take stuff to manage that issue, slightly reducing their firepower in the process. LoS blockers are therefore the antidote to leafblower lists, because they make it impossible to win a tournament playing that way.

I'm generally quite happy if people are trying to shift my intercessors out of cover with mortars and stuff. It takes a long time to get rid of them. I'm less happy about basilisks!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 15:56:07


Post by: Martel732


Basilisks are crazy good.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 16:18:35


Post by: Lemondish


Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I just dont understand the endless harping on terrain. Terrain is free and random. You can never count on it.

Insisting on los blockers sure seems like a concession that shooting is too strong.


Dice are random, too. What I'm trying to teach you here is that the mark of a good player is how they're able to maximize the strengths of the army they're piloting while mitigating its weaknesses in the face of uncertainties and factors not under their control. This is called player skill, and it's how folks are still winning games as Blood Angels even when you aren't. This happens during the game - not before. Terrain can be random, but how you use it to mitigate your weaknesses or maximize your strengths is key.

This is the reason why we play games rather than simulating lists. This is hard to understand for somebody who doesn't play the game, but I can assure you that there's more to it than just list building, picking ITC secondaries, and then rolling a die to see who wins.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 16:32:24


Post by: Martel732


My win rate is actually right in line with 40kstats. That rate just sucks. I know that skill matters, but constantly running out of marines hurts a lot.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 16:52:02


Post by: Azuza001


So i want to get your folks opionons on a unit i do not see used often, the lowly contemptor dreadnought. I was looking at it and comparing it to armiger warglaves and i think it is a valid option to run now days.

Comparison between the 2.

Speed = Warglaive is 14", but 9" contemptors is still pretty good. winner : Warglaive

Range = Warglaive has a 30" melta gun, Contemptor is a 24" multimelta. However contemptor hits on 2's vs warglaives 3's so when moving normal speed they are hitting on the same value and we are talking about 6" being the difference. Unfortunately i still have to give this one to the warglaive, it can advance and shoot where the contemptor cant so the Warglaive has a better threat range. Winner : warglaive.

Survivability = Warglaives have more wounds than a contemptor (12 vs 10) and both have a 3+/5++ save. However i would be remissed to not mention chapter tactics here. The contemptor can get -1 to hit outside 12" where the warglaive can get count double the remaining wounds. Both have access to a 6+++ option as well. In the end this one i think has to go to the warglaive, but only just so. Its really close, but it comes down to which you think is a better defensive buff, -1 to hit or count wounds as double. Winner : Warglaive

Cost = this is an easy one to cover, warglaives are 20 pts more expensive than contemptors. That savings can add up to 3 contemptors getting a free leiutenant out of the deal as the same cost as the 3 warglaives. Winner : Contemptor

Cp value = as i mentioned under cost 3 contemptors can get a free leiutenant for the price of 3 warglaives. Thats 1cp there. Also contemptors are elite choices, not LOW. This means if your trying to run a brigade they already have a spot to fill in. Warglaives are typically taken when your already doing a bigger knight to be sure to get the household trait and the cp. In the end i am giving this one to the contemptor, we are talking about in a space marine army right here and contemptors fit in better than warglaives if your looking for pure cp.

Close combat = This is a bit tricky to do. Both have arguably the same weapon for cc, str x2 ap-3 d3. Both get the same number of attacks (4). Contemptors are stonger than warglaives, wounding t7 on 2's vs 3's for the warglaive, but the warglaive does have a sweep attack that can do more hits vs a swarm force that may look to bog you down in cc. Chapter tactics have a few tricks to let the contemptor run free (ultramarines and white scars both work to make sure your contemptor isnt in a combat with something that isnt its entended target) but household traits have lots of bonuses that deal with cc as well. In the end i am giving this one to the contemptor, but only barely, because its higher strength and the synergy you can pull with it that the warglaive cant.

Synergy = now that i am talking about this i think its important to remember we are talking about a space marine army. This means many space marine powers can help make these guys even better. Might of heros is a particularly good one, +1 attack, str, and toughness means your wounding everything in cc on 2's thats not t9, which means pretty much everything. Warglaives cant get that kind of boost. If we are talking pure soup the issue becomes more muddied. But we are talking marines right now so in a marine force contemptors just fit better than warglaives. Winner : Contemptor (for a space marine army)


In the end its a tie i suppose, or at the very least the contemptor makes a valid alternative to the warglaive. There are tricks the warglaive can do a contemptor cant (outflanking for example, or advance and charge) so i think what it really comes down to is what the job your looking for them to do is. Any comments / thoughts welcomed.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 17:12:15


Post by: godardc


No, it has always been part of the rules and the rules take them into account. Maybe it's not in the 8th Ed rulesbook as before but you had guidelines and everything about terrain and how much was needed at minimum.
You are not supposed to play on planet bowling ball and that's taken into account when they wrote the weapons and shooting rules: so if you don't play with terrain you are actually giving a free and random advantage to shooting.
Is it a concession because assault is too strong in your meta?
Don't think so, seems to be a misunderstanding of the rules.
Remember 40k ISN'T chess and never wanted to be, it's a narrative game, they told it enough like that, so you are supposed to tell something, a story, on a battlefield of the 41st millenium. I don't understand how you could play without terrain keeping that in mind ?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 17:25:32


Post by: Martel732


The narrative could be : "This battle takes place in a flat area similar to the eastern front in WWII".

That's an incredibly valid narrative.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 21:22:50


Post by: Lemondish


Martel732 wrote:
The narrative could be : "This battle takes place in a flat area similar to the eastern front in WWII".

That's an incredibly valid narrative.


Absolutely true, I cannot agree more.

But then you're totally okay with doing whatever it is you want in a narrative game and the competitive value of your units goes out the window.

And the narrative doesn't stop with establishing the setting. Don't play every game on planet bowling ball and hide that fact when you're addressing the value of units of armies. It's skewed analysis and functionally worthless.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/03 23:54:29


Post by: Mandragola


Azuza001 wrote:
So i want to get your folks opionons on a unit i do not see used often, the lowly contemptor dreadnought. I was looking at it and comparing it to armiger warglaves and i think it is a valid option to run now days.

Comparison between the 2.

Speed = Warglaive is 14", but 9" contemptors is still pretty good. winner : Warglaive

Range = Warglaive has a 30" melta gun, Contemptor is a 24" multimelta. However contemptor hits on 2's vs warglaives 3's so when moving normal speed they are hitting on the same value and we are talking about 6" being the difference. Unfortunately i still have to give this one to the warglaive, it can advance and shoot where the contemptor cant so the Warglaive has a better threat range. Winner : warglaive.

Survivability = Warglaives have more wounds than a contemptor (12 vs 10) and both have a 3+/5++ save. However i would be remissed to not mention chapter tactics here. The contemptor can get -1 to hit outside 12" where the warglaive can get count double the remaining wounds. Both have access to a 6+++ option as well. In the end this one i think has to go to the warglaive, but only just so. Its really close, but it comes down to which you think is a better defensive buff, -1 to hit or count wounds as double. Winner : Warglaive

Cost = this is an easy one to cover, warglaives are 20 pts more expensive than contemptors. That savings can add up to 3 contemptors getting a free leiutenant out of the deal as the same cost as the 3 warglaives. Winner : Contemptor

Cp value = as i mentioned under cost 3 contemptors can get a free leiutenant for the price of 3 warglaives. Thats 1cp there. Also contemptors are elite choices, not LOW. This means if your trying to run a brigade they already have a spot to fill in. Warglaives are typically taken when your already doing a bigger knight to be sure to get the household trait and the cp. In the end i am giving this one to the contemptor, we are talking about in a space marine army right here and contemptors fit in better than warglaives if your looking for pure cp.

Close combat = This is a bit tricky to do. Both have arguably the same weapon for cc, str x2 ap-3 d3. Both get the same number of attacks (4). Contemptors are stonger than warglaives, wounding t7 on 2's vs 3's for the warglaive, but the warglaive does have a sweep attack that can do more hits vs a swarm force that may look to bog you down in cc. Chapter tactics have a few tricks to let the contemptor run free (ultramarines and white scars both work to make sure your contemptor isnt in a combat with something that isnt its entended target) but household traits have lots of bonuses that deal with cc as well. In the end i am giving this one to the contemptor, but only barely, because its higher strength and the synergy you can pull with it that the warglaive cant.

Synergy = now that i am talking about this i think its important to remember we are talking about a space marine army. This means many space marine powers can help make these guys even better. Might of heros is a particularly good one, +1 attack, str, and toughness means your wounding everything in cc on 2's thats not t9, which means pretty much everything. Warglaives cant get that kind of boost. If we are talking pure soup the issue becomes more muddied. But we are talking marines right now so in a marine force contemptors just fit better than warglaives. Winner : Contemptor (for a space marine army)


In the end its a tie i suppose, or at the very least the contemptor makes a valid alternative to the warglaive. There are tricks the warglaive can do a contemptor cant (outflanking for example, or advance and charge) so i think what it really comes down to is what the job your looking for them to do is. Any comments / thoughts welcomed.

I've used both, so here are a couple of thoughts:

Don't call Contemptors "humble". They are pretty badass. It's arguable that they're our best dreadnought. They deliver their hits fairly rapidly and they don't tend to miss. Armigers only hit on a 3+ in combat, usually without rerolls.

Don't take a melta on a contemptor. The assault cannon gets 6 shots, so you've got some reasonable dakka for clearing screens.

A contemptor benefits a lot from a librarian. If Null Zone and Might of Heroes are cast then things will get messed up - even including enemy knights.

Ultimately I think a contemptor can be a decent use of 140 points. The Armiger's speed does probably give it the edge, but the Contemptor - once you include the buffs it can get - is more reliably dangerous.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/04 02:03:28


Post by: Azuza001


I condidered the assault cannon and it also seems pretty good as a str 7 assault cannon but that comparison would be vs the dakka armiger and it would not end well for the contemptor i believe. 4d3 str 7 ap-1 2dmg is better than 6 str 7 ap-1 1dmg even before adding range in.

What got me onto this is that i picked up a relic contemptor from forgeworld recently, with double gattlings and the cyclone misisle launcher. I was thinking running 3 contemptors, 2 melta fist and 1 relic, in my black templar army (not the best chapter choice for them but rerolling charges could be useful to make sure those charges go off when they get in range).

But thank you for your input, i am glad i am not the only one who sees this unit and says "that could be nasty if buffed correctly "


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/04 09:30:27


Post by: Mandragola


Sorry but no, a contemptor with an assault cannon is not an analogue with an Armiger Helverin. A Helverin doesn't have a dreadnought close combat weapon with four attacks at WS2+. A Helverin is for shooting up vehicles while a kheres assault cannon is really just an anti-personnel weapon - quite a good one but really not the point of the dreadnought. There's no comparison whatsoever.

I guess something like a contemtpor mortis might be comparable with the Helverin. I've had ok results from contemptors with quad lascannons, and those got cheaper in the latest CA. I prefer stormcannon leviathans and deredeos though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/04 12:58:51


Post by: Azuza001


Sorry was late last night, didnt really post what I meant. I was saying the same thing, a contemptor with multimelta is a decent analog for a warglaive but a contemptor with an assault cannon isnt anywhere near the same as a helviern. Quad las mortis sounds cool, same with deredeos dreds. The the deredeos seem more like a support dread as well, being able to give a 5++ bubble to others. That could really help some units out (hellblasters, venerable dreads just to think of a few off the top of my head). Not really the same tool you know?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/04 13:25:42


Post by: Mandragola


Ok cool, no worries. I just think the comparison is irrelevant.

It's not really important whether a contemptor is like an armiger - or any other unit. What matters is whether or not it's a useful unit for your army. A Kheres assault cannon isn't necessarily a bad choice because it's a different class of weapon to the armiger's melta lance.

The thing that armigers and contemptors are both really for is smashing things in melee. The nice thing about a contemptor is that it's a pretty efficient way of delivering those 3 damage hits to things. It's fairly cheap and quick, with a good strength and great WS. The armiger is faster and a little tougher, but it has a worse strength and WS, so it does less damage when it gets there.

Overall my experience is that both are kind of ok, but neither is a really great unit. People who want to do those D3 hits in melee tend to field smash captains, with good reason.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/04 18:41:11


Post by: Crazyterran


People take Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons on things like Contemptors and Leviathans?!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/04 21:14:18


Post by: Azuza001


Well the basic contemptor has to take one so.... yeah?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/05 14:46:35


Post by: Mandragola


A Contemptor is a decent platform for delivering those DCCW attacks, as I said. It works well because it doesn’t cost much, it’s reasonably quick and it tends to actually hit and wound things it reaches. That’s not to say that it’s a phenomenally powerful unit, but it’s one that’s able to do a job.

I haven’t seen anyone use a DCCW on a leviathan any time lately. I’ve got stormcannons on mine, which work ok. I prefer repulsors nowadays - the fly keyword is priceless.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/08 23:32:12


Post by: Azuza001


So i picked up a repulsar exterminator with the plasma cannon to use in my black templar list recently, cant wait to try it out. But my local meta has seen a shift lately. This shift is to a lot of heavy armor and air. Harliquins, dark eldar, knights (oh the knights), stormfangs, stormravens, stormhawks.... it seems everyone either has 3 russ commanders or aircraft or a knight.

This got me thinking about the hunter and stalker units, specifically the hunter. Its 80 pts for a 60" single las cannon shot that rerolls failed hits and adds 1 to hit rolls vs aircraft. As a cheap option to add a laz cannon in vs a 5 man tactical squad with a single las this thing seems like a steal. What do you guys think of it?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 01:51:43


Post by: Lemondish


Azuza001 wrote:
So i picked up a repulsar exterminator with the plasma cannon to use in my black templar list recently, cant wait to try it out. But my local meta has seen a shift lately. This shift is to a lot of heavy armor and air. Harliquins, dark eldar, knights (oh the knights), stormfangs, stormravens, stormhawks.... it seems everyone either has 3 russ commanders or aircraft or a knight.

This got me thinking about the hunter and stalker units, specifically the hunter. Its 80 pts for a 60" single las cannon shot that rerolls failed hits and adds 1 to hit rolls vs aircraft. As a cheap option to add a laz cannon in vs a 5 man tactical squad with a single las this thing seems like a steal. What do you guys think of it?


I'm a fan of the Hunter myself. I'm convinced the Hunter is actually one of the hidden gems of Codex Space Marines - mono build of course, there's definitely some more competitive options in the Imperial motor pool.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 02:02:01


Post by: Azuza001


Yeah i agree. 80 pts for 11w t8 3+ save and 60" las cannon with built in rerolls.... i wonder why you dont see this unit more often.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 02:47:36


Post by: Insectum7


^I'm so close to agreeing with the above, but I always wind up looking at the Razorback instead as it packs the Twin Las, or the Stalker for the multitude of shots.

But yes, 80 is a low low price for that T8 11w 60"Lascannon.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 04:00:55


Post by: Lemondish


 Insectum7 wrote:
^I'm so close to agreeing with the above, but I always wind up looking at the Razorback instead as it packs the Twin Las, or the Stalker for the multitude of shots.

But yes, 80 is a low low price for that T8 11w 60"Lascannon.


Two of those and a Thunderfire cannon feels like a decent start to a Spearhead.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 08:39:40


Post by: Mandragola


The hunter is tough for its points, but its firepower is not good for the price. It's roughly half what a quad las contemptor would cost. That has twice the firepower but is arguably less tough than even a single hunter.

I actually really like repulsors. The fly keyword is priceless and they have ridiculous amounts of dakka. I find them properly versatile option that can fight against infantry hordes as well as enemy vehicles. Can't wait to get my executioners on the table.

They aren't fun to build though! I've built two so far and put together the chassis of the third last night. I'm doing the tracks seperately though and I've been putting off building them. Trimming the flash off those for my first two normal repulsors was a traumatic experience.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 10:32:42


Post by: Neophyte2012


Mandragola wrote:
The hunter is tough for its points, but its firepower is not good for the price. It's roughly half what a quad las contemptor would cost. That has twice the firepower but is arguably less tough than even a single hunter.

I actually really like repulsors. The fly keyword is priceless and they have ridiculous amounts of dakka. I find them properly versatile option that can fight against infantry hordes as well as enemy vehicles. Can't wait to get my executioners on the table.

They aren't fun to build though! I've built two so far and put together the chassis of the third last night. I'm doing the tracks seperately though and I've been putting off building them. Trimming the flash off those for my first two normal repulsors was a traumatic experience.


Don't take that against Eldar, Eldar can delete one each turn from 48" away.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 13:46:58


Post by: Dynas


Not sure why people are against predators, kill shot strat seems to work wonders. Any ideas on how this list did so well? What combos, tricks is this list running?

3rd Place
Ben Neal - Flying Monkey Con

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [31 PL, 413pts, 8CP] ++

+ HQ [13 PL, 226pts] +
Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 115pts]
Librarian in Phobos Armour [6 PL, 111pts]: Camo cloak [3pts], Force sword [8pts] Ultramarines

+ Troops [18 PL, 187pts] +
Scout Squad [6 PL, 57pts]
. Scout Sergeant [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter [2pts] . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts] Black Templars

Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]
. Scout Sergeant [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle [2pts] . 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle [52pts]: 4x Sniper rifle [8pts] Ultramarines

Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]
. Scout Sergeant [13pts]: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle [2pts] . 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle [52pts]: 4x Sniper rifle [8pts] Ultramarines

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [72 PL, 1,183pts, ] ++
**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Victrix Guard [-1CP]

+ HQ [6 PL, 100pts] +
Librarian [6 PL, 100pts]: Force axe [10pts], Storm bolter [2pts]

+ Elites [40 PL, 599pts] +
Primaris Ancient [5 PL, 69pts]
Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 233pts]: Jump Pack [2 PL, 30pts], Melta bombs [5pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: 2x Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: 2x Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Veteran Sergeant [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]

Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 233pts]: Jump Pack [2 PL, 30pts], Melta bombs [5pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: 2x Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: 2x Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Space Marine Veteran [16pts]: Chainsword, Storm shield [2pts]
. Veteran Sergeant [30pts]: Chainsword, Thunder hammer [16pts]

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 64pts]
. Victrix Honour Guard [32pts]: Power sword [4pts], Storm shield [2pts]
. Victrix Honour Guard [32pts]: Power sword [4pts], Storm shield [2pts]

+ Fast Attack [4 PL, 71pts] +
Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 71pts]
. 2x Scout Biker [46pts]: 2x Twin boltgun [4pts]
. Scout Biker Sergeant [25pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

+ Heavy Support [22 PL, 413pts] +
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 321pts]: 2x Heavy flamer [28pts], 3x Hunter-killer missile [18pts], Storm cannon array [50pts], Storm cannon array [50pts]
Thunderfire Cannon [6 PL, 92pts]
Techmarine Gunner [37pts]
. . Servo-harness [11pts]: Flamer [6pts], Plasma cutter [5pts]

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 400pts, 3CP] ++
**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ Lord of War [18 PL, 400pts, 3CP] +
Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 400pts, 3CP]: Warlord

++ Total: [121 PL, 1,996pts, 11CP] ++


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 14:05:16


Post by: Martel732


Because predators are super flimsy and miscosted.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 14:24:44


Post by: Mandragola


That's a very odd list so I'm surprised it did so well. The vanguard vets are probably able to do good work against flyer lists though and the Leviathan will be relatively hard to get rid of, with Tigurius making it hard to hit. I could see the army getting swamped by hordes though.

One thing the list does have is tons of psychic defence. Those BT scouts are an interesting addition.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 15:36:36


Post by: Azuza001


That list puts out a ton of attacks from units with high invunerable saves, i can see that working just fine.

As for predators they are amazing, i take 3 all the time and they always do wonders. Problem is they are better in a space wolves detachment where Njal can cast stormcaller giving them a 2+ save then spend 3cp and make them -1 to hit making them much harder to kill. Basic marines cant get that level of protection.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 19:09:02


Post by: Insectum7


You can mount 3 Hunter Killers on a Leviathan?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 19:57:15


Post by: Lemondish


Mandragola wrote:
That's a very odd list so I'm surprised it did so well. The vanguard vets are probably able to do good work against flyer lists though and the Leviathan will be relatively hard to get rid of, with Tigurius making it hard to hit. I could see the army getting swamped by hordes though.

One thing the list does have is tons of psychic defence. Those BT scouts are an interesting addition.


I doubt hordes would be an issue. It doesn't show the relics on the list but we do know it's a Victrix Guard detachment. In that case he's almost guaranteed to be running the relic banner that adds +1 attack. In addition, you can spend CP to fight in your opponent's charge phase or add +1 to hit in the fight phase. Turns those Vanguard Vets into a freaking lawnmower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
You can mount 3 Hunter Killers on a Leviathan?


Yep.

Super weird, honestly.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/09 21:17:40


Post by: Ice_can


Lemondish wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
That's a very odd list so I'm surprised it did so well. The vanguard vets are probably able to do good work against flyer lists though and the Leviathan will be relatively hard to get rid of, with Tigurius making it hard to hit. I could see the army getting swamped by hordes though.

One thing the list does have is tons of psychic defence. Those BT scouts are an interesting addition.


I doubt hordes would be an issue. It doesn't show the relics on the list but we do know it's a Victrix Guard detachment. In that case he's almost guaranteed to be running the relic banner that adds +1 attack. In addition, you can spend CP to fight in your opponent's charge phase or add +1 to hit in the fight phase. Turns those Vanguard Vets into a freaking lawnmower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
You can mount 3 Hunter Killers on a Leviathan?


Yep.

Super weird, honestly.

It's not super weird, it's just them finally allowing you to have wysiwyg rules.

As for the list it's nice to see something different to the standard parking lot for marines but I hate that it's yet more atleast subfaction only soup or go home for competitive lists.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 06:22:08


Post by: Vilehydra


It makes sense because literally every unit is pulling some form of double-duty, which marines really need to take advantage of to compete.

For example,

The librarian trio is tailoring psychic powers to the match-up (if its ITC at least), allowing for the conclave strat to ensure null-zone gets off, and providing sufficient deny. They also aren't slouches in combat with force weapons. Give the phobos the armour indomitus and your looking at a 0+ save in cover, making him pretty difficult to remove.

The UM scouts can pull board control, character suppression, and objective holding. The BT scouts allowing for a 50%/75% chance to just outright deny a psychic power is also critical.

Vanguard vets are lawnmowers, heavy-hitters with the thunderhammers, and can also tie units down. I'd be curious how many games he won with this list by surrounding a non-fly tank and just pillowfisting it until it was the opponents CC phase. Having access to Psychic fortress is also critical for reducing the damage done by smite spam.

The Leviathan is just good, especially when MoH'ed and protected by Tiggy.

The thunderfire puts out some decent Ignore LOS fire, but the real benefit is its ability to control units like genestealers or lord discordants with the strategem.

And Rowboat just ties it together. he can beatstick enemy beatsticks while providing all of the juicy UM buffs nearby.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 06:30:46


Post by: BrianDavion


Mandragola wrote:
The hunter is tough for its points, but its firepower is not good for the price. It's roughly half what a quad las contemptor would cost. That has twice the firepower but is arguably less tough than even a single hunter.

I actually really like repulsors. The fly keyword is priceless and they have ridiculous amounts of dakka. I find them properly versatile option that can fight against infantry hordes as well as enemy vehicles. Can't wait to get my executioners on the table.

They aren't fun to build though! I've built two so far and put together the chassis of the third last night. I'm doing the tracks seperately though and I've been putting off building them. Trimming the flash off those for my first two normal repulsors was a traumatic experience.


I didn't think my repulsor was that bad to build, I mean my personal hell was the chaos marine Defiler.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 09:31:04


Post by: Rogerio134134


Tomorrow I'm thinking of fielding dual repulsor crimson fist force with 2 repulsors and Kantor, anyone have much luck with Pedro?? He seems expensive but reroll all hits is great and he gives all crimson fists that plus 1 attack which is handy


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 09:43:57


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Rogerio134134 wrote:
Tomorrow I'm thinking of fielding dual repulsor crimson fist force with 2 repulsors and Kantor, anyone have much luck with Pedro?? He seems expensive but reroll all hits is great and he gives all crimson fists that plus 1 attack which is handy
Pedro has done some serious work in almost every game I have run. He does need some protection, but Pedro's Goon Squad of Honour Guard, a Captain with the Fist of Vengeance, and an Ancient is nuts.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 10:45:29


Post by: Mandragola


A chapter master is a big help for repulsors. They fire an awful lot of dakka so full rerolls help a lot. They make the biggest difference with overwatch, where it almost doubles their firepower, making them no fun at all to charge.

I’ve not run Pedro for my fists. I just sometimes upgrade my Primaris Captain to a chapter master. Pedro is kind of awesome though.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 13:35:21


Post by: Rogerio134134


Yeah I'm going to give him a shot tomorrow, twin repulsors with hellblasters/aggressors, Pedro walking behind the tanks and redemptor and see how we get on.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 18:57:06


Post by: Dynas


Vilehydra wrote:
It makes sense because literally every unit is pulling some form of double-duty, which marines really need to take advantage of to compete.

For example,

The librarian trio is tailoring psychic powers to the match-up (if its ITC at least), allowing for the conclave strat to ensure null-zone gets off, and providing sufficient deny. They also aren't slouches in combat with force weapons. Give the phobos the armour indomitus and your looking at a 0+ save in cover, making him pretty difficult to remove.

The UM scouts can pull board control, character suppression, and objective holding. The BT scouts allowing for a 50%/75% chance to just outright deny a psychic power is also critical.

Vanguard vets are lawnmowers, heavy-hitters with the thunderhammers, and can also tie units down. I'd be curious how many games he won with this list by surrounding a non-fly tank and just pillowfisting it until it was the opponents CC phase. Having access to Psychic fortress is also critical for reducing the damage done by smite spam.

The Leviathan is just good, especially when MoH'ed and protected by Tiggy.

The thunderfire puts out some decent Ignore LOS fire, but the real benefit is its ability to control units like genestealers or lord discordants with the strategem.

And Rowboat just ties it together. he can beatstick enemy beatsticks while providing all of the juicy UM buffs nearby.


Awesome. Just what i was looking for.
Can you clarify what you mean by: Double duty? LIke whats the double duty for the Vanguards? I assume you mean good in 2 phases, but some units don't seem obvious to me.
What is this "surround non fly tank and pillowfisting until opponents CC phase?" Can you elaborate?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 19:02:08


Post by: Insectum7


"Double duty" as in manage two or more roles/functions, most likely. Being able to respond to several types of threats is important.

Vanguards there are mentioned as being able to deal high damage (which is obvious), but also tie stuff down (which is also a really good use). Not killing something immediately, but taking it out of the opposing players control, while at the same time shielding your Vanguard from effective counterplay is a pro move, imo.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 19:20:55


Post by: Azuza001


When it comes to space marines you really need to have a double duty plan for every unit you put into the list.

Example : Black Templar Scouts. With their special deployment they can deploy right on the front line. If you go first you can move them forward but not charge, putting them 3" away from an opponents line and move blocking important things t1 from being useable, like a knight gallent. If your opponent goes first you can deny any psycic powers t1 with them thanks to the black templar strat. Finally if they are ignored they can grab mid field objectives easy. All these uses for 55 pts is pretty good. Sure they will probably die after t1 but they did their job well.

Thats why bt scouts are finding their way into many soup lists.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 21:44:26


Post by: bananathug


How are you guys dealing with the triple disco lord lists (or soon to be a thing chaos knights) while still being TAC?

They do so much work with DttFE, anything they touch dies. They have marks that let them advance and charge, go first and other terrible things. Morty is the same thing (but better) so either I try to shoot him down and then deal with the disco lords (if I go first) or get my butt kicked if I don't (still getting my butt kicked if I go first but at least there's a chance).

While I'm at it, anyone have any suggestions for dealing with 40-60 plague bearers?

Hitting on 4's-5's is so ugly that by the time I've dealt with morty and the disco bros (this has happened once and the dice gods were heavily involved) the plague bearers pretty much have all of the board and I've got very little left to fight them with.

Anyone stumbled across anything that works against this besides hiding in the second floor of ruins? I'm hesitant to use bolter cents as they are such a liability vs anything with good med/long range shooting (tau, chaos FW dreads, DE, eldar flyers, i.e. the other meta lists). I've tried DW but two big storm bolter units only kill 10 of them and then they get swallowed by the horde.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/10 22:09:01


Post by: Rogerio134134


bananathug wrote:
How are you guys dealing with the triple disco lord lists (or soon to be a thing chaos knights) while still being TAC?

They do so much work with DttFE, anything they touch dies. They have marks that let them advance and charge, go first and other terrible things. Morty is the same thing (but better) so either I try to shoot him down and then deal with the disco lords (if I go first) or get my butt kicked if I don't (still getting my butt kicked if I go first but at least there's a chance).

While I'm at it, anyone have any suggestions for dealing with 40-60 plague bearers?

Hitting on 4's-5's is so ugly that by the time I've dealt with morty and the disco bros (this has happened once and the dice gods were heavily involved) the plague bearers pretty much have all of the board and I've got very little left to fight them with.

Anyone stumbled across anything that works against this besides hiding in the second floor of ruins? I'm hesitant to use bolter cents as they are such a liability vs anything with good med/long range shooting (tau, chaos FW dreads, DE, eldar flyers, i.e. the other meta lists). I've tried DW but two big storm bolter units only kill 10 of them and then they get swallowed by the horde.


That sounds filthy, go Crimson fists with MSU and multiple repulsor/redemptor for massive rate of fire?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/11 06:05:26


Post by: Vilehydra


bananathug wrote:
How are you guys dealing with the triple disco lord lists (or soon to be a thing chaos knights) while still being TAC?

They do so much work with DttFE, anything they touch dies. They have marks that let them advance and charge, go first and other terrible things. Morty is the same thing (but better) so either I try to shoot him down and then deal with the disco lords (if I go first) or get my butt kicked if I don't (still getting my butt kicked if I go first but at least there's a chance).

While I'm at it, anyone have any suggestions for dealing with 40-60 plague bearers?

Hitting on 4's-5's is so ugly that by the time I've dealt with morty and the disco bros (this has happened once and the dice gods were heavily involved) the plague bearers pretty much have all of the board and I've got very little left to fight them with.

Anyone stumbled across anything that works against this besides hiding in the second floor of ruins? I'm hesitant to use bolter cents as they are such a liability vs anything with good med/long range shooting (tau, chaos FW dreads, DE, eldar flyers, i.e. the other meta lists). I've tried DW but two big storm bolter units only kill 10 of them and then they get swallowed by the horde.


Disco lords require board control. The real killing power in that list are the discos and morty, you need to hold back the discos while you kill morty. BT scouts are excellent in this regard as they also have the deny strat for either miasma of pestilence OR warp time, depending on your board situation. Focus down morty, then focus down the discos without giving up too much ground. The one that gives +2 to advance and charge as a field commander trait is your primary target after morty is down. They're tough, but plasma and lascannons both fit perfect into the niche of killng Disco lords. -3 AP puts it right into their invuln save, and you only need 6 wounds (3 for lascannons) to go through. Also, keep your units spread in such a way that they cant be consolidated into.

As per plaguebearers, massed bolter fire followed by mass charges. I know it sounds silly but think of it like this. The -1 lasts for the phase, so you need to shoot plaguebearer squad below 20. You then need to absolutely pile on casualties. The best way to mitigate plaguebearer toughness is to force morale checks on them. If you're running snipers or any assassins, murder the sloppity bilepiper. Essentially every kill past 7 counts as double so forcing two plaguebearer squads to make d6+X morale checks is an excellent way to force models off the board. Of course the demon Icon makes this less reliable, but its still the best way of putting down plaguebearer models.

On a side note, I've been running a sternguard/vulkan team in a rhino to mulch these sort of lines, and while they don't generally outright kill the PBs, the remove enough models to charge them without a -1 and force a morale save.

Also, lists that have discos and plaguebearers may put the plaguebearers in a daisy chain at the front. IIRC the disco bases are larger then 2" at their smallest point (not quite sure, would need to doublecheck). If this is the case, then you can use his plaguebearers against their movement paths with scouts in CC with plaguebearers.

Also @ Dynas. No matter what weapon your equipped with, every unit has a 'base attack' that is their strength and no AP. You can use this to your advantage by locking down units in assault so that you can avoid the enemy shooting phase. For example, you enemy has two leman russes, you can only charge one. You charge the leman with the vanguard, get in, and surround the leman russ so it can no longer fallback. Now you have two options, use the thunderhammers equipped on some of the vanguard to try and kill the leman russ, OR to have all of them use their str 4 ap- standard attacks instead. If you kill it, you remove the leman russ for the rest of the game, and your vanguard are now sitting in the open ready to get shot by the other leman russ. If you tie it down, you negate it for a round of shooting while also having the added benefit of protecting your vanguard vets from the other leman russ. In their combat phase, you attempt to kill the thing (spending the 3 CP if necessary to fight again) so that you can now charge and kill his other leman russ. These sort of moves can win you games.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/13 04:58:15


Post by: rooster92


Hey guys, just wanted to post the space marines list I've been using lately and have been having moderate success with. I don't post much, but I check in on this board regularly, and take peoples suggestions on here into consideration. I would love to hear opinions and get some constructive criticism. This list attempts to feel like a balanced marines force, with lots of power armored bodies, and a variety of support units, incorporating tanks, planes and dreadnoughts, while still hitting hard and having some staying power.

Space Marines Battalion 2000 points

HQ
Primaris Chapter Master with plasma pistol and power fist
Primaris LT with power sword and pistol

Troops
x10 primaris intercessors, sgt with power sword (use primaris vets strategem upgrade to be able to use double tap bolt rifles)
x5 primaris intercessors
x5 primaris intercessors
x5 bolter scouts
x5 bolter scouts
x5 sniper scouts

Elites
Redemptor Dread with double gatling
Relic contemptor dread with quad lascannons
Relic Venator Sicaran Tank Destroyer w/ heavy bolter
x5 Primaris Reivers with grav chutes and carbines

Fast Attack
x4 bikers, sgt with storm bolter

Flyer
Xiphon Interceptor with 4 lascannons and rotary missile launcher

Dedicated Transport
Razorback with twin assault cannons

Auxiliary Support Detachment
Custodes Telemon Dreadnought with two archanus storm cannons and spiculus bolt launcher

I usually form two separate fire bases to hold two objectives to start. One has the Chapter master and LT buffing the contemptor and redemptor, and some supporting primaris infantry. The other fire base has the Telemon and razorback and some infantry. The sicaran and Xiphon can move and shoot without penalty, so they start hidden and then move into buff range if possible or to the flank that needs the most help. The scouts serve multiple roles depending on match up. Vs shooty armies they infiltrate and hold remote or back field objectives, and vs assault armies they form a screen. The reivers deepstrike and either grab a poorly defended out of the way objective or reinforce the line and the bikes either help clear screens or advance onto objectives. The telemon has been useful in being a multi role long range support unit; tough to kill and capable of killing multiple infantry types or heavily damaging armor as necessary. I feel like if I wanted a palate change, a repulsor executioner could fill a similar role for similar points. The xiphon can move quickly and damage tanks, or get in deep to threaten LOS ignoring units. I have plenty of other marine units available in my collection, and would appreciate suggestions on tweaks. Thanks!


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/15 19:12:11


Post by: Crazyterran


Why Relic Contemptor Dread with quad las instead of a Contemptor Mortis?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/15 22:46:49


Post by: BrianDavion


you've got 4 units in elites, am I missing something?


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/16 01:47:10


Post by: rooster92


@BrianDavion

You get 6 elite slots in a battalion right?

@Crazyterran

I could save some points by going contemptor mortis (like 10-15 or so I think?) but I didn't really have anything else to sink those 15 points into that I could think of. The relic one gets a couple extra wounds and a 6+ FNP which is nice for durability. I usually go raven guard too, so if I pop him in cover he can be fairly resilient. I have 2 relic unit elite slots by taking the other two non relic elites (sicaran takes a relic unit slot too), so I figured why not.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/16 02:03:04


Post by: BrianDavion


rooster92 wrote:
@BrianDavion

You get 6 elite slots in a battalion right?

.


.. so you do. guess a part of me was still stuck in the old FOC.

Although if you can find the points for another HQ at this point you might be better off creating a vanguard detachment for your elties to gain back another CP.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/18 05:45:57


Post by: Rogerio134134


Thinking of going with this list now I've ordered the executioner...ok maybe not a tournament winning list but I quite like the immense firepower.

-----


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [123 PL, 1,999pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Crimson Fists

+ HQ +

Pedro Kantor [9 PL, 150pts]

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 102pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 5x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 106pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 5x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 102pts]: Bolt rifle
. 5x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Repulsor Executioner [15 PL, 299pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy Laser Destroyer, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, 2x Storm bolter, Twin Heavy Bolter, Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber

+ Dedicated Transport +

Repulsor [16 PL, 285pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Auto Launchers, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 2x Krakstorm Grenade Launcher, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Repulsor [16 PL, 285pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Auto Launchers, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 2x Krakstorm Grenade Launcher, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [123 PL, 1,999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

3 big tanks and a dread with some decent infantry too, the plan is for the 3 tanks to advance together with Pedro hugging the back of the executioner with the leiutenant to grant all the re rolls.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/18 14:08:15


Post by: Azuza001


Yeah thats a pretty interesting list. I faced something similar last week, dark angels player had the executioner, regular repulsar, and a land raider crusader vs my eldar. It... didnt go well for him. A doomed / jinxed repulsar dies very quickly to shuriken fire, and it doesn't even have to be a lot, so be careful against stuff like that.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/18 14:16:14


Post by: Rogerio134134


Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah thats a pretty interesting list. I faced something similar last week, dark angels player had the executioner, regular repulsar, and a land raider crusader vs my eldar. It... didnt go well for him. A doomed / jinxed repulsar dies very quickly to shuriken fire, and it doesn't even have to be a lot, so be careful against stuff like that.


Yeah to be honest the scene at my local club is not top tier play unless you specifically ask your opponent for a game like that so I think they will do ok. Normally I run a list with a single repulsor and 2 dreads and I do quite well at a local level.

I love the tanks though and think they look fantastic, if there was a way of giving them an invulnerable save somehow it would make them quite powerful.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/18 14:23:44


Post by: Azuza001


Beyond forgeworld or a castellen level knight i don't think there is. I hear ya, they should have an invunerable of some sort, even 6++ would help.


Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too) @ 2019/07/19 20:56:16


Post by: Xenomancers


Why would you not trade autolaunchers for frag launchers? 2d6 str 4 shots at 18" range is totally worth 8 points. IMO its also worth it to upgrade the storm bolters to frag launchers. Then you are dumping 4d6 str 4 on something. For 12 points you will be doing 14 shots str 4 instead of 4 shots. For 12 points. Totally worth. Sometimes youll roll hot to and get 20+ shots. When your rerolling all hits and 1's to wound. That is a whole infantry unit destroyed.

Also...I think a standard LT is probably better. You save a fair amount of points plus you can give him reasonable gear if you want...like a jump pack TH SS. Im assuming your LT is taking your relic as well. So A chainsword and SS and jump pack is probably your best build. Then give him teeth of tera. Or you can take the crimson fist power fist which is quite good. In order to make these changes youd probably need to take a TLHB on a repulsar