godardc wrote: So, I'm doing my list right now and I have some questions for you guys who have already played some games.
What do you think about some plasma pistols for the VV ? Like, 2 or 3. Now that they don't overheat anymore, are cheap and we choose the casualities. It seems a good idea to gey some more punch.
The power axes seem better than the power mauls now, what a shame I modeled 4 with mauls
Tac squad seem really nerfed into oblivion this edition. They weren't particulary good before, but now they lost their 3+ armor (will usually get 4+ or 5+) and their AP5.
I used to play 3, I won't anymore.
As flamers are totally unplayable this edition, what weapons do you think I should give to my old flamer squad ? The others two already have plasma/combi plasma.
IIRC, a transport can transport several units, as long as it has the capacity. What do you think about two 5-men Tac squad with plasma/combi plasma in a drop pod ? 4 plasma weapons at rapid fire range, two units.
The chaplain seems to be buffed, his ability is an aura and isn't just for the first round anymore !
How do you plan to use your drop pods now ? I can't see myself using them with Tac squads and sternguard with combi are sooo expensive and I only have 1 sternguard unit
I think plasma pistols are better on them than melee weapons are. I would take a lot of them.
Tac squads are not great right now, however, flamers are amazing. D6 Auto hits is actually really strong, and wonderful in overwatch.
I think drop pods are too expensive for anything except sternguard and devastators, and then those are iffy.
Chaplains seem solid if you have 2+ assault units.
Actually, you make me think about devastators in drop pods, maybe with grav cannons, as they are heavy 4. Even with -1 to hit, they would hit several times. How does it works with a captain nearby ? Is a roll of 1 still considered a 1, or a 0 ? And a roll of 2 would be considered a 1, is that right ?
How are flamer great ? A Tac squad with 2 flamers would get about 7 auto hit, that about only 3 dead orks...
Speaking about orks, of a Tac squad with two flamers kill only about 7 orks in rapid fire range (3 for the flamers, 3 for the bolters, 1 for the heavy weapon), how are you handling hordes (termagaunts, orks, guards...) ?
You roll, re-roll any natural 1s, then -1 from all the final results.
So 20 (flamer and combi flamer) points doubles the infantry killing power of the unit? That seems okay to me.
I think we handle hordes with assault cannons, heavy flamers, hurricane bolters, storm botlers, and frag missiles.
Actually, you make me think about devastators in drop pods, maybe with grav cannons, as they are heavy 4. Even with -1 to hit, they would hit several times. How does it works with a captain nearby ? Is a roll of 1 still considered a 1, or a 0 ? And a roll of 2 would be considered a 1, is that right ?
Rerolls happen before modifiers are applied. So you reroll 'natural' 1's for the captain.
You roll, re-roll any natural 1s, then -1 from all the final results.
So 20 (flamer and combi flamer) points doubles the infantry killing power of the unit? That seems okay to me.
I think we handle hordes with assault cannons, heavy flamers, hurricane bolters, storm botlers, and frag missiles.
Ok thanks !
Indeed, looking at it this way that seems pretty powerful. But still, I'm looking for a more efficient way to clean hordes.
Whirlwinds seem to be the new must have ? TFCs don't look as good as before, sadly.
Frags missiles really got buffed I think, I agree. So, 4 ML devastator, I have that. I think (venerable) dreads, kitted out with ML, assault cannons and/or twin auto cannons may be powerful hordes killer too.
LS have several weapons pretty useful against hordes, but are so pricey now ! The same for the LR Crusader: full of anti infantry weapons, but you get to pay for this.
I guess I will buy a second stormbolter on my rhinos !
Have you tried the tactical terminators ? I'm looking forward playing some, I love the models.
Exactly how competitive could I expect a Black Templars list to be?
By that I mean, lots of Crusade squads with BTICs, Vindicators and no psykers.
Personally i think it'll be good, this is the infantry spam edition and BT's do it better than any other chapter right now.
Imho all the current named IC's for them are well worth it except Grimaldus and his servitors who i think are good but not amazing, personally i'd replace him with the chaplain venerable dreadnoguth from the FW index since you're going to be taking a sword brother in your squads anyway so the loss of the LD bubble isn't a big deal and grimaldus does way less than the bug dead religious walker.
Outside of that i'd make sure to try and overlap different aura's as much as possible, If you have Helbrecht, and Emperor's champion Ancient AND apothecary i honestly don't know who snipers will want to pickoff first, since all of them will make your crusade squads beasts
The Vindicator will struggle to do the damage it used to except against a few weird targets, though it should hurt vehicles and MC's well enough, and whilst LRC are really good they're also prohibitively expensive toys that could be spent on more tooled up and well supported mobs of men.
You roll, re-roll any natural 1s, then -1 from all the final results.
So 20 (flamer and combi flamer) points doubles the infantry killing power of the unit? That seems okay to me.
I think we handle hordes with assault cannons, heavy flamers, hurricane bolters, storm botlers, and frag missiles.
Ok thanks !
Indeed, looking at it this way that seems pretty powerful. But still, I'm looking for a more efficient way to clean hordes.
Whirlwinds seem to be the new must have ? TFCs don't look as good as before, sadly.
Frags missiles really got buffed I think, I agree. So, 4 ML devastator, I have that. I think (venerable) dreads, kitted out with ML, assault cannons and/or twin auto cannons may be powerful hordes killer too.
LS have several weapons pretty useful against hordes, but are so pricey now ! The same for the LR Crusader: full of anti infantry weapons, but you get to pay for this.
I guess I will buy a second stormbolter on my rhinos !
Have you tried the tactical terminators ? I'm looking forward playing some, I love the models.
I played against a unit of 5 tac termies and think they are pretty good. 20 storm bolter shots is great, 2 wounds makes them way harder to kill by forcing 2+ armor saves (my preferred way of killing them last edition), meaning you really have to focus grav, las, or overcharged plasma at them if you want to reliably kill them. I ended up shooting 2 las/plas razorbacks and a plasmagun from a scout squad at them, killing 2, and then charged 15 blood claws into them, killing 2 more, and the last one ran away after failing the morale check. In short, they can take quite a beating.
I think i will run some in my next game as SM / SW and use them as a deterrent against assaulting my vehicles. Deepstriking is probably the best way to deploy them, but more in my mind to get them within rapid fire range of something, or to get between a threat and something important than to count on the 9" charge.
I have a squad of centurions, unassembled. I was thinking of going heavy devastator build with lascannons and centurion missile launchers, but that's 420 points and I"m not sure if it's worth it. I think assault centurions would be a possibility, but it'd probably be best for countercharging with their slow movement, right? Is anyone using centurions for anything right now?
Jacksmiles wrote: I have a squad of centurions, unassembled. I was thinking of going heavy devastator build with lascannons and centurion missile launchers, but that's 420 points and I"m not sure if it's worth it. I think assault centurions would be a possibility, but it'd probably be best for countercharging with their slow movement, right? Is anyone using centurions for anything right now?
I think putting an apothecary and chapter ancient near dev cents helps get your money's worth out of them. They output a lot of fire power if you go first, and you may be able to hide them behind things if you don't. With the ancient you get some shots of they die, and the apothecary brings some guys back which i think helps a lot.
I'd just make sure that you either have other scary things to shoot at, or that them soaking up fire ends up being worth it for your list.
GAdvance wrote: Do we have a confirmation of multiply then add in the new rules, I haven't seen it myself.
Also just to add to the chaplain dread pain train, Helbrecht has the same aura, crusader squads backed by a dead chaplain and a golden armoured chapter master... I haven't a name for that yet lol
Its the second paragraph under "Modifying Characteristics" found in the sidebar on page 175.
Have you tried venerable dreadnoughts ? I think shooty ones, with two shooting weapons, and maybe near a captain/lieutnant could be very efficient, as they are cheap (about 130 points), easy to hide, not too easy to kill, have a good range and have high rate of fire weapons.
Honestly I am looking at FW mortis dreadnaughts because what they bring for their points cost is pretty solid. 175 gets you 4 lascannon shots, 141 gets you 8 autocannon shots.....
godardc wrote: Have you tried venerable dreadnoughts ? I think shooty ones, with two shooting weapons, and maybe near a captain/lieutnant could be very efficient, as they are cheap (about 130 points), easy to hide, not too easy to kill, have a good range and have high rate of fire weapons.
Venerable Dreadnoughts with two Twin Autocannons can volley off 8 shots at S7 w/ an AP modifier that do 2 damage each, and they hit on a 2+. They can shoot as well moving as regular Dreads do standing still, and they're more survivable. I plan to test them out pretty extensively.
godardc wrote: Have you tried venerable dreadnoughts ? I think shooty ones, with two shooting weapons, and maybe near a captain/lieutnant could be very efficient, as they are cheap (about 130 points), easy to hide, not too easy to kill, have a good range and have high rate of fire weapons.
Venerable Dreadnoughts with two Twin Autocannons can volley off 8 shots at S7 w/ an AP modifier that do 2 damage each, and they hit on a 2+. They can shoot as well moving as regular Dreads do standing still, and they're more survivable. I plan to test them out pretty extensively.
Look forward to hearing how they compare for the points to contemptors, mortis contemptors, and relic contemptors
I'm going to give a solid try to the Relic Leviathan Dreadnought with Storm cannon batteries. Sure, 330ish points, but 20 shots, at S7 AP-2 2 Damage seems good. And the 14 wounds with a 4+ invul makes them incredibly hard to put down without large amounts of mortal wounds coming their way.
Hektik wrote: I'm going to give a solid try to the Relic Leviathan Dreadnought with Storm cannon batteries. Sure, 330ish points, but 20 shots, at S7 AP-2 2 Damage seems good. And the 14 wounds with a 4+ invul makes them incredibly hard to put down without large amounts of mortal wounds coming their way.
My issue is that it would be bullied in melee too easily.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Asking for a friend: How are Las/Missle Centurion squads, with a nearby Apothocary for returning wounds/dead models?
Seems pricey as hell, but my friend insists that they cost twice a Las Pred, but have similar output damage-wise.
IIRC, they are 2 lascannons and D3 missile shots EACH, with a minimum of three. So each guy will have similar damage output to a quad-las predator (D3 missiles vs 2 lascannons is pretty close, favoring lascannons). That said, they are slightly cheaper, but much more fragile. The apothecary adds to their staying power, but also increases their cost. If you are hurting for Heavy slots, it's a crap ton of fire power for 1 slot, but I think you can find more points effective fire support elsewhere. I mean, for their cost you could get something like 4 double las razorbacks, or a fully decked out stormraven AND a razorback.
Carnage43 wrote: I mean, for their cost you could get something like 4 double las razorbacks
at least 3 troop slots are accounted for but you end up needed to pay a bit more for another unit unless you are going full ham on troops or another dev squad.
Oh the centurions also get ignore cover save and no move penalties.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Asking for a friend: How are Las/Missle Centurion squads, with a nearby Apothocary for returning wounds/dead models?
Seems pricey as hell, but my friend insists that they cost twice a Las Pred, but have similar output damage-wise.
IIRC, they are 2 lascannons and D3 missile shots EACH, with a minimum of three. So each guy will have similar damage output to a quad-las predator (D3 missiles vs 2 lascannons is pretty close, favoring lascannons). That said, they are slightly cheaper, but much more fragile. The apothecary adds to their staying power, but also increases their cost. If you are hurting for Heavy slots, it's a crap ton of fire power for 1 slot, but I think you can find more points effective fire support elsewhere. I mean, for their cost you could get something like 4 double las razorbacks, or a fully decked out stormraven AND a razorback.
I know he had a bunch of AC Razorbacks in his list, but wants to try low number of drops for 1st Turn at high-odds. I think he also needs two Heavy slots filled as he also wants to take two Relic something or other Dreads.
For the cents I would only get the Lascannons and take the hurricane bolters in the chest. For what they do hurricane bolters are a steal points wise and you should aim to bring as many as you can, even if its just to take the cheaper option haha.
Centurions seem pretty awesome. Unlike predators it's pretty easy to get cover for them. They can even get into a building if you want. I think that's probably a good idea, given how soft they are.
If you've got las elsewhere then heavy/hurricane bolter centurions spit out a lot of shots. They are far cheaper than las guys, but do a different job of course.
As for assault guys, if you're taking a land raider or storm raven, these guys are a good option to ride in it. Otherwise I think stay away.
Tacticals can take 2 special weapons now? Or do you mean to say special + combi-weapon? I haven't picked up the rules yet and I don't recall hearing anything about Tacticals being able to take two specials now.
10 man tactical opposite of first missile launcher
10 man tactical or 10 man scout w/ snipers
Dedicated transport
Razorback All three heavy bolter (82 ea) or Assault cannon (100 ea)
or Rhino w/ storm bolter 72
Fliers
Storm talon gunship 110 or 160 w/typhoon
Storm talon gunship 110
Heavy Support
Centurion devastator squad las cannon missile launcher 460
Stalker or hunter (if you have loaded dice) 90
The list might be expensive but it holds. theres no one thing that wins you the game and no one thing they can kill to lose you it. [edit I suck at learning new point system"
Personally i like the idea of adding in some land speeders and taking the rhinos or adding in an assault squad. a devastator squad could do alright depending. Or just adding a contemptor in for some more melee defence.
So im a little conflicted with storm talons it seems the best way to kit them is to leave them as they are. they feel fine unless you really are going against armies with a lord of war or something worth two krak missiles instead of heavy bolters.
the captain is for your tanks or your devastators. his purpose is to be a mobile buff bubble but you could easily drop him for a cheap tank or a sniper squad depending on what you feel is useful.
i think this army gives enough in reserves and enough versatility to take out solid forces. I think its a decent skeleton to work an army around.what do you guys think?
terminator squad with assault cannon is 243 points
i was incorrect its actually only 151 points. its a 5 man squad you really dont need 10 with them its a bit excessive.
151pts is only 5 man with AC, you must pay for SB x4, PF x4 and power sword for sergeant, they are not included in model cost and are not optional, the only option is to upgrade PF to Chainfist
terminator squad with assault cannon is 243 points
i was incorrect its actually only 151 points. its a 5 man squad you really dont need 10 with them its a bit excessive.
151pts is only 5 man with AC, you must pay for SB x4, PF x4 and power sword for sergeant, they are not included in model cost and are not optional, the only option is to upgrade PF to Chainfist
oh for real. damn thats actually kinda confusing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: i was probably way over points on my first few games then
Automatically Appended Next Post: thenlist still holds though just cant do as many uogrades on the marines or just have to take the razors as rhinos
I dropped them next to 30 gaunts a fex and a tervigon. They cleared about 15 gaunts, got charged by the Fex (which fluffed its Rolls) ran away and shot some more gaunts.
Didn't get anywhere near their points back but they drew a few units from his army back towards his deployment zone breaking up his army for my other units to deal with.
Not sure if they are worth 225pts, or if a unit of assault Marines or termies would do the same job for more survivability.
Going to try them a few more times because I love the models.
What do everyone think about the Ironclad now it can't ride in pod anymore ? Maybe in a stormraven, or kept in reserve for counter assaulting deep striking units ?
godardc wrote: What do everyone think about the Ironclad now it can't ride in pod anymore ? Maybe in a stormraven, or kept in reserve for counter assaulting deep striking units ?
I feel like a couple of Double twin Autocannon dreads (or venerables) with a Captain and Lieutenant will be better than a Storm Raven and Ironclad.
GAdvance wrote: For 17 points more than a normal pod you can buy a FW one and drop in the dread as you used to.
TBH though it's still so damn expensive i wouldn't personally bother
You say that, but for a 300-400 point leviathan with grav flux bombards? Hell yea I will spend those points. Plus it is so damn big that they LITERALLY cant get a model within 3 inches of the objective marker haha.
GAdvance wrote: For 17 points more than a normal pod you can buy a FW one and drop in the dread as you used to.
TBH though it's still so damn expensive i wouldn't personally bother
You say that, but for a 300-400 point leviathan with grav flux bombards? Hell yea I will spend those points. Plus it is so damn big that they LITERALLY cant get a model within 3 inches of the objective marker haha.
godardc wrote: What do everyone think about the Ironclad now it can't ride in pod anymore ? Maybe in a stormraven, or kept in reserve for counter assaulting deep striking units ?
Used them as counter chargers
completely deleted a rhino and a daemon prince with two of them on my first game.
godardc wrote: What do everyone think about the Ironclad now it can't ride in pod anymore ? Maybe in a stormraven, or kept in reserve for counter assaulting deep striking units ?
The storm raven itself is a very good option, sticking an iron clad in it remains quite solid
I will play a stormraven and an ironclad today, so I guess I will see if they work fine together.
How many pts does an ironclad launcher cost ? I can't find it !
My plan for this edition is sending centurions plodding up the board with a good CC character and surprising the opponent with assault marines landing on their side of the board with this new version of deepstrike. In terms of tactical marines I'll be using small squads to keep points down and I'll be staying away from rhinos, razorbacks and drop pods because of their rise in points.
The best Ironclad loadout is probably the Dreadnought chainfist/hurricane bolter, but it feels a bit expensive to me at nearly 200 points. The fact that you have to pay for a meltagun instead of a storm bolter as your secondary weapon hurts, as do the increased chassis costs, and the Ironclad is no more resilient than a normal Dreadnought against lascannons.
I think regular Dreadnoughts are a better buy this edition, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong - I have three FW Ironclads!
So, I fought against a skitarii army.
I've come to the conclusion that Ironclads are only useful against small elites units, monsters and expensive vehicles, but it was already obvious.
However, I'm a bit disappointed by his lack of durability.
So I don't know, if I knew for sure that I would fight against a mechanized army or a tyranid army full of big monsters, it seems useful.
But otherwise it would be a waste, and a big waste at 200 points.
Very specialised, maybe too specialised for a Tac list
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kingsley wrote: The best Ironclad loadout is probably the Dreadnought chainfist/hurricane bolter, but it feels a bit expensive to me at nearly 200 points. The fact that you have to pay for a meltagun instead of a storm bolter as your secondary weapon hurts, as do the increased chassis costs, and the Ironclad is no more resilient than a normal Dreadnought against lascannons.
I think regular Dreadnoughts are a better buy this edition, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong - I have three FW Ironclads!
Kingsley wrote: The best Ironclad loadout is probably the Dreadnought chainfist/hurricane bolter, but it feels a bit expensive to me at nearly 200 points. The fact that you have to pay for a meltagun instead of a storm bolter as your secondary weapon hurts, as do the increased chassis costs, and the Ironclad is no more resilient than a normal Dreadnought against lascannons.
I think regular Dreadnoughts are a better buy this edition, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong - I have three FW Ironclads!
What about the Venerable Chaplin and Leviathan from FW they look fairly beastly?
I'm finding space marines to be a bit meh this edition so far, bur I'm going to run them in a 1k tournament tomorrow to get a bit more experience. I'm stuck between the below two lists, what does everyone think? Its on 4x4 boards with various missions
Tac squad and hellblasters will sit on backfield objectives whilst the vanguard and chaplain will ride up in the rhino. Contemptor either flanking or supporting the veterans. Captain will try and stop the hellblasters from blowing themselves up.
So I decided to revamp my list a little. Took out my Pods, added a Rhino, some Scouts, and a Vindicare. Unfortunately this means my Razorbacks are actually going to be carrying Marines, which almost seems like a foreign concept now.
Looking through IA, what do you all think are some of our better options for anti-tank?
Las Devastators: 165 points, bs3+, 5 wounds at T4, 3+
Las Mortis Dread: 175 points, bs3+, 8 wounds at T7, 3+
Quad Las Pred: 202 points, bs 3+, 11 wounds at T7, 3+
Twin Las Contemptor Mortis: 206 points, bs2+, 10 wounds at T7, 3+/5++
Grav Bombard Leviathan: 309 points, bs2+, 14 wounds at T8, 2+/4++
A Grav Flux Bombard Leviathan might be one of our better units. Since the deployment range is smaller, 18" range isnt too bad, plus getting an extra d3 shots for each bombard for every 5 models in a unit.
So even a bare minimum tac squad would be hit by 4d3 Grav Bombard shots. About 8 shots, hitting on 3s for moving, wounding on 2s, with -5 AP? Against a 30 unit of Boyz, it gets 14d3 between the two, which is about 28 shots on average.
It averages about the same shots as a quad las pred/mortis dread/etc, when you point it at tanks and such, and does 5 wounds straight up rather then 3.5 average. Of course, it could swing down to as low as two and as high as six, so it wont be quite as reliable.
The downsides are that it is a relic and 309 points for the load out. Its 15.45% of a 2000 point list. And while things tend to start closer, it is still probably going to have to move to get into range of things,
Part of me wants to do Las Mortis Contemptors, but the other part of me remembers i just bought these predators... (though, i guess with some careful cutting i can use the 4 BAC contemptors i have....)
Crazyterran wrote: The pred autocannon loses strength, AP, and the higher damage and is only one point less than the twin lascannon.
Ehhh...
The lower S can be an issue at some breakpoints. At S9, the LCs are wounding T4 things on a 2+ and T7-8 on a 3+, where the AC is only doubling out T3, and wounds T7 (a lot of vehicles) on a 4+. But against T5-6 they are the same. And there are a number of things in that range.
I’d not call the LC’s “higher damage”. Statistically, they technically are. d6 wounds is going to average 3.5. But the pred autocannon does a steady 3D. There is something to be said for consistency. If you are willing to blow command point re-rolls on the damage, the randomness of the d6 is a little less of an issue.
And don’t forget that the autocannon gets 2d3 shots to the 2xLC’s 2.
If you are shooting at heavy armor, the LCs are better. But against things like bike squads or squadrons of light vehicles, The AC I think is the better choice. Someone with more mathhammer skills then I can chart it up if they want, I’m just running with my gut feeling right now.
The issue with the ac is its AP. Things are going to make their saves. It's not a lot of use against something like an enemy land raider.
AP is a weird one though. You get diminishing returns from a high AP because either the target's armour isn't that good, or it has an invulnerable save. So for instance anything better than -2 is wasted on a knight.
I'm trying to work out if my deredeo is worth it. It has the anvillus array and I think the pavise sounds very useful. Going from strength 7 to 8 looks like quite a big step, as it will make it do more damage to most vehicles than a standard Mortis dread. Needs a few games to decide. It's kind of like a void shield generator with guns.
I've got a couple of superheavies too. My falchion seems to have come out nice and shiny in the wash. 817 points is rather a lot, true, but it has a predator strapped to each side, a machine spirit, and a gun whose rules effectively read "remove target model from play"
My Typhon is kind of a lesser version of the falchion. I save 247 points but lose an awful lot of power in the process. 6 less lascannons and a way less powerful (though still extremely powerful) main gun.
Neither the falchion or typhon seem all that tough, for their cost. But again that needs testing. The falchion in particular is very happy to sit deep behind layers of bubble wrap. It should be safe from deep strikers, infiltrators and similar.
So how viable are tank SM armies now? I was noodling around in battlescribe and a trio of las-preds, 3-4 assault cannon razorbacks, and maybe a whirlwind or two seems like it could work.
I think mech SM is viable, but im not sure about only tanks, due to how much CC shuts them down.
I think some kind of screening is needed, otherwise most tanks become useless once locked in combat. Flamers on things like land raiders are scary to charge, but that's about it as far as i can tell.
Just noticed that all the marine superheavies are relics. You're not allowed more relics than non-relics of any given role in a detachment.
This means that in order to field a marine relic vehicle you need to have a detachment of three superheavies - at least two of which must be knights, IG or terminus ultras.
Mech Space marines are totally viable, the razorback in particular is pretty much the most cost efficient unit in the index so far, and probably one of the most cost efficient of of the units available. Whirlwinds are similarly very good imho for a virtually nothing costs. though i'd agree on bubble-wrapping, mostly because of deepstrikers and fast combat locking you in combat
Well the thunderhawks and stormbird aren't relics... but yeah still a really dumb situation that you need a flipping thunderhawk to let you use a mastodon or fellblade.
I Rate the Librarius discipline, it's a bit of an odd one though, might of heroes means you either have to buff something mediocre or have a dedicated melee guy AND a librarian to buff him, Veil of time is just OK, since you're only ever getting half a psychic power really. Null Zone is huge, it'll destroy demons, harlequins etc and if you have high AP weapons you can make a mockery of terminator armour etc. It'll be hard making them all work well though, they seem quite specialised
Leth wrote: It just says may not have MORE of, so you can have 1 relic and 1 non and it meets the requirement.
Yea, but the only option there is (currently) the Super-heavy Detachment and that has a 3 minimum.
Indeed. So I can't have one relic superheavy on its own, because that would be more than 0 non-relic superheavies. So the only way to field any of the marine ones is to run a super-heavy detachment with a couple of knights or something. I could then have two relic superheavies.
I just phoned forgeworld and the guy I spoke to was already up to speed on the issue. I'm obviously not the first person to ask about this! He said they were looking at a FAQ, because the relic rule was ending up more restrictive than they'd planned.
That's a total of 1194 poionts, which is a little over half of the 2000 standard points people are starting to do now. Then the Minotaur half, which is a Vanguard detachment.
Basic gist is right there. Everyone gets in as close as possible t1, with the Scouts being spread out to act as meat shields. Then the Bikers, Terminators, and HQ's should be safe to charge in. Thoughts on that? It almost feels worth just going for Minotaurs in general, but Tyberos +1S bubble is frickin excellent on Bikers.
Remember the apothecary can only heal or revive members of his own chapter so that apothecary won't be aiding any of the carcharodons.
Same goes for Librarian Powers, you also get another power with him too.
Personally i'd choose between the sharks or the Minotaurs, if you're going sharks keep the librarian for Veil of Time to guaruntee more charges, if you're going Minotaurs you'll be less effective when you hit the charge but more likely in general to manage them.
Either way you may as well add in a cheap inquisitor psyker for terrify which i think will be a real boon to imperium assault armies, great for letting you bypass the overwatch from units with lots of flamers in particular, plus having 3 HQ's, 3 troops and 3 of anything else means you're getting anoher command point, so if you're already doing the last 2 paying 55 points minimum for a HQ is not a big issue
I don't know if they're good or not, but is it correct that Land Speeder Storms are only available to vanilla marines? Looking at the Index DA, BA, SW and the rest can't take them.
I was considering one to ferry about a squad of sniper Scouts for my BA.
craggy wrote: I don't know if they're good or not, but is it correct that Land Speeder Storms are only available to vanilla marines? Looking at the Index DA, BA, SW and the rest can't take them.
I was considering one to ferry about a squad of sniper Scouts for my BA.
That's how it's always been. Otherwise Vanilla Marines miss out on tools that make them SLIGHTLY different.
craggy wrote: I don't know if they're good or not, but is it correct that Land Speeder Storms are only available to vanilla marines? Looking at the Index DA, BA, SW and the rest can't take them.
I was considering one to ferry about a squad of sniper Scouts for my BA.
That's how it's always been. Otherwise Vanilla Marines miss out on tools that make them SLIGHTLY different.
Aww. :( I've been out of the loop for a while. Still, I suppose I could always go Keyword Imperium and include one. Not like the Scouts are supposed to be anywhere near close enough to anyone else to get buffs.
There isn't a lot of point ferrying snipers around anyway is there? They'd be happier in a bunker, and everyone is allowed in one of those.
Shotgun or combat knife scouts do benefit from the storm. A heavy flamer and 10 S5 shots up close is respectable firepower - though perhaps not all that spectacular for the price.
keep in mind we can't (unless I'm missing something) fire out of rhinos anymore. So a land speeder storm, if you're willing to take an accuracy hit, could actually be an intreasting pick for sniper scouts.
Can anyone gimme advise on what secondary HQ to pick up to support my melee focused carcharodons, i already have a Chaplain Dread and am not sure what to supplement it with.
I kind of want a Librarian but he looks so vulnerable without Terminator armour at which point he gets crazy expensive, and he doesn't give rerolls and is a bit mediocre himself at actually fighting.
I already have a Chaplain dread so having a standard chaplain feels odd but a captain doesn't do the job of assisting melee units quite as well.
Lastly i'm thinking of an inquisitor, just because they're cheap and the psychic powers+deny the witch seems useful but it's not particularly useful
craggy wrote: I don't know if they're good or not, but is it correct that Land Speeder Storms are only available to vanilla marines? Looking at the Index DA, BA, SW and the rest can't take them.
I was considering one to ferry about a squad of sniper Scouts for my BA.
You can still do it - sort of.
Take general sniper Scouts and a general Speeder - neither can have BlOOD ANGELS Keyword but otherwise work as normal, note that your BlOOD ANGEL Scouts (if you have them) can;t get in the speeder though.
GAdvance wrote: Can anyone gimme advise on what secondary HQ to pick up to support my melee focused carcharodons, i already have a Chaplain Dread and am not sure what to supplement it with.
I kind of want a Librarian but he looks so vulnerable without Terminator armour at which point he gets crazy expensive, and he doesn't give rerolls and is a bit mediocre himself at actually fighting.
I already have a Chaplain dread so having a standard chaplain feels odd but a captain doesn't do the job of assisting melee units quite as well.
Lastly i'm thinking of an inquisitor, just because they're cheap and the psychic powers+deny the witch seems useful but it's not particularly useful
The Inquisition power that makes people unable to overwatch is actually pretty good.
So is the Librarian's null zone.
In general both of them are pretty durable to shooting and assault as long as you keep other guys around them.
Where are people standing when it comes to Dreads nowadays? I am building a list at the moment and have roughly 70p to spare for weapons loadout. Two twin auto cannons for an improved version of the old rifleman-dread or multi melta and a close combat weapon to have a dual role of midfield anti tank and punching tough things in the face?
Agusto wrote:Where are people standing when it comes to Dreads nowadays? I am building a list at the moment and have roughly 70p to spare for weapons loadout. Two twin auto cannons for an improved version of the old rifleman-dread or multi melta and a close combat weapon to have a dual role of midfield anti tank and punching tough things in the face?
Cpt. Icanus wrote:i don't think the multimelta suits the Dread, it's one shot at BS 4+ most of the time.
Some dreads start at BS 2+, so the -1 for moving and shooting a heavy only puts them at a 3+. Also, single shot guns can be helped out more with a command point. Also if you are going to be near someone with a buff bubble.
It seems like CC is on the rise, so I’m going to avoid the pure gun dreads personally. The fist is nice to have if you need to crump some heads. If you are going to be pushing forward aggressively, the AsC seems to be in a good spot. For sitting back as backfield support, any of the long range options seem decent, depending what your list needs.
But I would only take that fist off if you already have ample screening units a/o another respectable countercharge unit.
Yes, I am running it as a Ven. Dread. So a 3+ after moving and I am more and more leaning towards (keeping) the CC weapon just to have it like a defensive midfielder. A MM and a CC weapon (with a heavy flamer) gives it a large bubble of "you don't want to be here" that is nice
Hey guys, I haven't played 40k since the 90s and I'm kind of tempted to get back into it with an Imperial Fist army.
Is it possible to do an IF army that exemplifies the sheer tenacity and stubbornness of the Legion?
I'd love to build an army makes the opponent work hard for every single model that gets removed. And army that strikes like the fist of an angry emperor when it finally hits.
I'm a fan of a tacs, termi's, dreads, tanks and I love the new centurions. Not so much a fan of bikes, flyers, jump packers and hovercraft.
Unfortunately, from what I gather our local meta is fairly competitive. Ie. people don't consider a game successful until an opponent whines about how unfun it was. Stuff like knights in 1k games and such is not uncommon.
Do space marines currently have synergies that let me build something that survives in my current meta while giving me something I enjoy thematically?
I'm perfectly happy accepting a lower win rate in exchange for more draws and fewer losses. I always enjoyed a tightly fought draw.
If you want to hold the damn line then I'd say squads of Tactical Marines with Apothecaries, Ancients and maybe Chaplains backing them up could be stupidly resilient, especially if you can get cover for your tacticals.
I'd have a rough focus on tacs, devs and centurion devs
So I largely play Grey Knights for my power armor fix, but I wanted to add a Spearhead Detachment to my army and use Centurion Devastators as my sole source of ranged anti-tank.
How many would you guys recommend taking for a competitive TAC list? Browsing 1d4chan, they said just 1 unit, but that seems like way too low volume of fire (you'd take ~3 turns to kill a single Knight or a Raptor, by my math with just the Devastators).
The rest of the army I'm imagining is typical Grey Knight stuff to handle melee. Dreadknights, Paladins, Terminators e.t.c. 2,000 point lists.
- Why on earth does the Predator have the same defensive statline as the Whirlwind?
- Why does the Vindicator, Stalker and Hunter have T8 while the Predator has T7?
- Why can you (almost) buy 2 Twin-Las Razorbacks for the same price as one Twinlas+Lassponsons Predator, for similar firepower but 20 T7 wounds vs 11 T7 wounds?
Surely the Predator should have T8? Especially given that the cheapest version of it costs 171 pts, but it can go beyond 200 pts. For 11 T7 wounds....
Compare to the Vindicator which is 160 pts and T8.
T8 would also differentiate the Predator from the transports, and not make two Razorbacks a no-brainer over a single Predator Annihlator.
It's possible it's a typo, but if not I can only imagine they found the t8 pred to be too strong in the game itself. There is significantly more firepower on a pred than a to a WW or Stalker, and perhaps they wanted more room between the stat lines of the pred and land raiders.
Either way i don't see it as a problem, as predators are quite good as it is.
- Why on earth does the Predator have the same defensive statline as the Whirlwind?
- Why does the Stalker and Hunter have T8 while the Predator has T7?
- Why can you (almost) buy 2 Twin-Las Razorbacks for the same price as one Twinlas+Lassponsons Predator, for similar firepower but 20 T7 wounds vs 11 T7 wounds?
Surely the Predator should have T8? Especially given that the cheapest version of it costs 171 pts, but it can go beyond 200 pts. For 11 T7 wounds....
Doesn't seem to be a typo. FAQ got released today and didn't address this yet
GAdvance wrote: It's imho a poor decision if it's intentional, no reason a predator should be weaker than a vindicator
Good point, totally missed the Vindicator in my comparison (added now).
I'm fairly convinced that T7 is a typo and that the Pred is supposed to be T8.
As for it not being in the latest errata; given the amount of errors that they needed to fix so soon, it's obvious that GW makes mistakes, and I wouldn't be surprised if they forgot/missed the Predators T7.
Questionable toughness aside, I did some math on the Twin-Lascannon and Predator Autocannon against some common targets, seeing as the two weapons cost more or less the same.
Averages, so the Predator Autocannon fires 4 shots.
Damage after Damage-multipliers in brackets.
While standing still and shooting at:
Vs. T3 5+
Predator Autocannon: 1,85 (5,54)
Twin Lascannon: 1,11 (3,88)
AC wins.
Vs. T3 4+
Predator Autocannon: 1,48 (4,43)
Twin Lascannon: 1,11 (3,88)
AC wins.
Vs T3 3+
Predator Autocannon: 1,11 (3,33)
Twin Lascannon: 0,93 (3,24)
AC wins barely.
Predator Autocannon is better against T3, T5 and T6.
Twin Lascannon is better against T4, T7 and T8.
The Twin Lascannon deals slightly more damage overall, but it's worth noting that the gap narrows if the tank moves.
Personally I will model my new Predator with the Autocannon anyway, mainly because I've always liked how it looks, but also because while it has a random number of attacks, I like it's solid D:3 compared to the Lascannons D: D6.
- Why on earth does the Predator have the same defensive statline as the Whirlwind?
- Why does the Vindicator, Stalker and Hunter have T8 while the Predator has T7?
- Why can you (almost) buy 2 Twin-Las Razorbacks for the same price as one Twinlas+Lassponsons Predator, for similar firepower but 20 T7 wounds vs 11 T7 wounds?
Surely the Predator should have T8? Especially given that the cheapest version of it costs 171 pts, but it can go beyond 200 pts. For 11 T7 wounds....
Compare to the Vindicator which is 160 pts and T8.
T8 would also differentiate the Predator from the transports, and not make two Razorbacks a no-brainer over a single Predator Annihlator.
Similar situation,
Why does a Land Speeder Storm have 7 wounds, and yet a Land Speeder only has 6. I thought the Storm was supposed to be the weaker and less armoured version?
Why does a Land Speeder Storm have 7 wounds, and yet a Land Speeder only has 6. I thought the Storm was supposed to be the weaker and less armoured version?
The LSS is bigger, so get an extra wound. It also is less armored, with a 4+ save, not a 3+
Knocked out a 2k game with all the primarus stuff in the dark imperium box an apothecary, las devs and a 10man terminator with asscannons and stuff.
got dominated by a imperial knight and a storm raven. but was interesting
was overloaded with characters which kinda screwed me over but the ancient, and hellblasters were cash money. 4+ to get a free shot at overcharge with no risk was awesome followed by another 4+ to bring the guy back. (they shoot whatever shots when they are out of rapid fire but the second the enemy gets into rapid fire its fine to go ham and overcharge all the things (if necessary) followed by anyone that died getting two more shot on a 4+)
I played the Relic vs. Orks with 1000 pts of my 2000 pts Crimson Fists list. My Scouts got to the Relic first, then my Devastators went to work blasting away at stuff. My missile Devs blasted away at his Boyz with frag missiles while the Lascannon Devs one-shotted his Warboss (weird positioning issues led to him being the closest model my Devs could see, so BOOM! 6 on the damage roll). I tricked him into charging Pedro+Honour Guard's Rhino, which fell back after offloading Pedro and his Goon Squad (my opponent's name for them). The squad of Boyz crumpled after being charged. What didn't die in CC fell to Morale. Since, by that time, the Scouts had worked their way around and out of sight with the Relic, he had no choice but to concede.
I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.
benlac wrote: I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.
Honestly finding sniper scouts to be all that good. the snipers dont really pull weight but that might be me being a bad at rolling dice in a dice rolling game
they do however hold objectives in ruins like a boss. so im kinda torn.
Cheap with bolters or expensive with camo cloaks :/
benlac wrote: I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.
Honestly finding sniper scouts to be all that good. the snipers dont really pull weight but that might be me being a bad at rolling dice in a dice rolling game
they do however hold objectives in ruins like a boss. so im kinda torn.
Cheap with bolters or expensive with camo cloaks :/
I did that math-hammering because I was replacing my snipers, lol. Against weaker characters I imagine they'd be good, but I think you need a unit of 10 to truly put significant wounds on tougher characters, and then at 180 for 10 scout snipers it's starting to get a bit pricey...
Edit: I suppose you could try doing snipers without cloaks?
...Or bolter/heavy bolter with cloaks?
Can I just say that I love the new Hellblasters? I was playing against a Necron player the other day, and he moved up his C'tan just close enough so that my Hellblasters and Captain could move up into LOS. One round of super charged plasma fire later and the C'tan was at 1 wound, and was then finished off by a squad of bored sniper scouts who finally got to do something that game.
Desubot wrote: At that price i rather have another hellblaster squad for 10 points more
Definitely. Overall it seems like scouts aren't as great in this edition. Kind of a shame as I like scouts.
they have their uses.
its a cloak scouts are terminators in cover. thats pretty significant. i think taking a few min squads to hold objectives might be worth while. especially since they can be forward deployed
i think i need to rethink their rolls and just not take snipers (which is going to suck for modeling those arms off (or i get lazy and just take the sniper barrel off and call them bolters)
heavy bolters might be nice for throwing down some extra damage at range. iv tried missiles and im just not very lucky with them
Personally I will model my new Predator with the Autocannon anyway, mainly because I've always liked how it looks, but also because while it has a random number of attacks, I like it's solid D:3 compared to the Lascannons D: D6.
Magnets my friend! the Predator main gun is one of the easiest things to magnetize I've run across. Just clip off the peg thingies from the guns, put a 1/16th by 1/8th magnet in one of the holes those pegs would go into on the turret, drill a hole where one of the pegs on the gun piece is, and put another magnet in it. I've found that one side is enough to hold it in just fine.
benlac wrote: I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.
Honestly finding sniper scouts to be all that good. the snipers dont really pull weight but that might be me being a bad at rolling dice in a dice rolling game
they do however hold objectives in ruins like a boss. so im kinda torn.
Cheap with bolters or expensive with camo cloaks :/
Where Shotguns are good at is being Assault 2, S5 at 6". (Now I am biased because they mix good with Melta-Guns on Wolf Scouts). While that might not mean as much to many, vs T4 (3+ to Wound) and T9 (5+ to wound) it can make a difference.
I think scouts main use this edition is as bubblewrap in shooty mech lists against assaulting enemies.
If you know you can get first turn, deploy them in a razorback to minimize the number of drops you have. If you are going second anyway, set them up protecting you against first turn charges.
I think scouts main use this edition is as bubblewrap in shooty mech lists against assaulting enemies.
If you know you can get first turn, deploy them in a razorback to minimize the number of drops you have. If you are going second anyway, set them up protecting you against first turn charges.
Yeah forwarding deploying makes it harder for people to deep strike directly in front as well if you position it properly
they have a lot of not offensive utility which is great
benlac wrote: I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.
Honestly finding sniper scouts to be all that good. the snipers dont really pull weight but that might be me being a bad at rolling dice in a dice rolling game
they do however hold objectives in ruins like a boss. so im kinda torn.
Cheap with bolters or expensive with camo cloaks :/
Where Shotguns are good at is being Assault 2, S5 at 6". (Now I am biased because they mix good with Melta-Guns on Wolf Scouts). While that might not mean as much to many, vs T4 (3+ to Wound) and T9 (5+ to wound) it can make a difference.
They are definitely still viable, I just found people were pretty amped on them and my quick mathhammering didn't support that in a spectacular way. I think you'd have to play shotgun scouts well for them to be better than bolter scouts i.e. getting in that "within 6'' sweet spot. As a screening unit bolters seem just as good as shotguns a lot of the time as units are deep striking at 9'' (both are taking two str 4 shots). But then the bolters are far more likely to be in range in other situations, so much more versatile. Maybe it comes down to a matter of playstyle/preference though, I'm more of a defensive player with SM's.
Well Shotgun scouts can run and shoot, which is definitely a bonus when closing in.
My pure Minotaur list has 2 CCW Scouts and 2 Shotgun Scouts. All with Combi-Melta Sergeants of course. Been doing okay with it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well Shotgun scouts can run and shoot, which is definitely a bonus when closing in.
My pure Minotaur list has 2 CCW Scouts and 2 Shotgun Scouts. All with Combi-Melta Sergeants of course. Been doing okay with it.
how do you usually play them? deployed far ahead to hunt threats or moving up with your main force?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well Shotgun scouts can run and shoot, which is definitely a bonus when closing in.
My pure Minotaur list has 2 CCW Scouts and 2 Shotgun Scouts. All with Combi-Melta Sergeants of course. Been doing okay with it.
how do you usually play them? deployed far ahead to hunt threats or moving up with your main force?
I'm really using them as Meat Shields, which is why I have the success. Two squads will be going with the main force, and spread out a bit to the annoyance of my opponent (because I want Asterion protected obviously).
For gunline support is there any reason to take anything other than a big standard captain? Gravis and terminator armor offer different benefits but I'm not sure the point increase of ether is worth it just to get those sweet reroll aura.
So, the Terminus Ultra is 400 points for 8 Lascannons on a Land Raider frame now. Not to shabby, just have to get those extra predator sponsons from somewhere.
Crazyterran wrote: So, the Terminus Ultra is 400 points for 8 Lascannons on a Land Raider frame now. Not to shabby, just have to get those extra predator sponsons from somewhere.
If you're going that route, why not take a Shadowsword? More damage output against big targets, better defenses, not that much more expensive, much more resilient to melee...
buddha wrote: For gunline support is there any reason to take anything other than a big standard captain? Gravis and terminator armor offer different benefits but I'm not sure the point increase of ether is worth it just to get those sweet reroll aura.
Only if you're concerned about your captain being sniped out from under you. I don't think the Gravis captain is worth taking for gunline support (too melee centric) but terminator armor would bring some benifits. that could be useful if you where concerned about snipers
buddha wrote: For gunline support is there any reason to take anything other than a big standard captain? Gravis and terminator armor offer different benefits but I'm not sure the point increase of ether is worth it just to get those sweet reroll aura.
Only if you're concerned about your captain being sniped out from under you. I don't think the Gravis captain is worth taking for gunline support (too melee centric) but terminator armor would bring some benifits. that could be useful if you where concerned about snipers
I’d give him some basic gear (power weapon, maybe a plasma pistol for looks), but I think the normal power armor guy is quite viable for that role. No reason to spend the points for the better amor. And having that aura for your firebase is a very nice thing to have.
Has anyone found a way to effectively use hellblasters yet? They get shot off of the table in seconds.
It's 8th edition, so virtually all of my games are against Astra Millitarum / straight up Imperial Guard, and 6-10 Manticores blow multiple units off the table per turn that are completely hidden.
The rest of my games are T'au with the new Forgeworld Riptide, which jumps in, and does enough shooting to annihilate any high priority unit, and comes with a 4+ invuln on 14 wounds, so these guys aren't super worth it there, either.
I'm struggling with how to use these. What role do they fill in your army? And, how do you ensure they can reliably perform it?
Crazyterran wrote: So, the Terminus Ultra is 400 points for 8 Lascannons on a Land Raider frame now. Not to shabby, just have to get those extra predator sponsons from somewhere.
If you're going that route, why not take a Shadowsword? More damage output against big targets, better defenses, not that much more expensive, much more resilient to melee...
Edit: hang on brain fart.
True but its also not a space marine. you lose out on a really cool modeling project. sucks though with the overloading rule.
Marmatag wrote: Has anyone found a way to effectively use hellblasters yet? They get shot off of the table in seconds.
It's 8th edition, so virtually all of my games are against Astra Millitarum / straight up Imperial Guard, and 6-10 Manticores blow multiple units off the table per turn that are completely hidden.
The rest of my games are T'au with the new Forgeworld Riptide, which jumps in, and does enough shooting to annihilate any high priority unit, and comes with a 4+ invuln on 14 wounds, so these guys aren't super worth it there, either.
I'm struggling with how to use these. What role do they fill in your army? And, how do you ensure they can reliably perform it?
I think all of the Primaris stuff has this issue. 2W is passable against small arms fire, but they have no meatshields for soaking wounds like vehicle or tactical squad would to protect their expensive/important models. It's a linear decrease in power for every guy lost as well, where as a predator is still ~50% effective with 10 wounds gone.
Frankly, skip the Primaris stuff until they get new rules IMO, especially if your meta is manticore and riptide spam.
Played my 1st game as marines this edition. Can't comment too much on units obviously then, but on very first impression, Lias Issodon is great. Himself and 3 full tactical squads with grav and double plasma deep striking was fun.
Maybe the only downside is, with an awesome buff aura such as re-roll hits and increased movement, it encourages blobbing squads.
I also had 47 deep striking models in a 2k list, which gets tricky finding landing zones to fit them all whilst staying more then 9 away from the enemy.
I tried 3 squads of legion of the damned, they kept a knight busy and held an objective. Not sure what to make of them this edition?
They don't get buffs from characters, cost the same, aren't slow and purposeful. Cover isn't the same anymore, so ignoring it might not be as big of a deal.
On the other hand, they can now deep strike turn one and are fairly tough in cover themselves. They get a heavy and special at 5 men.
I think you could do something like 2 double twin auto cannon dreads and two assault cannon + fist/flamer dreads in almost any list and be fine.
Any more would start being a lot in my opinion, and I'd be tempted to go as SW to get Bjorn and couple of ven dreads with shields. I'd still probably throw in some marines and some lascannons in there somewhere as well.
For SM i bet you could throw in robute g with 4+ dreads and walk forward and fight stuff. I just played a game against robby g and 2 dreads and he is so good it's almost not okay, lol.
Anything more than 4 dreads is starting to be a lot, i think, but if you have the models I'd say give it a go and see what you think you can make work.
Bryan01 wrote: Played my 1st game as marines this edition. Can't comment too much on units obviously then, but on very first impression, Lias Issodon is great. Himself and 3 full tactical squads with grav and double plasma deep striking was fun.
Maybe the only downside is, with an awesome buff aura such as re-roll hits and increased movement, it encourages blobbing squads.
I also had 47 deep striking models in a 2k list, which gets tricky finding landing zones to fit them all whilst staying more then 9 away from the enemy.
Keep in mind it is "units within" for Lias. So you can conga line out a bit without crowding him. I am planning on running him with 2-3 Sternguard squads or maybe two and a Dev Squad w/ MM. Plus was going to add some Vanguard Vets for counter-assault to back up said Sternguard.
Having him near the VV means you can chance that T1 charge with the +1" buff he gives, too. So I think that might have some merit.
Aye, I could fit a few units around Lias , still felt a bit blobby though. I think he goes well with allot of units, I just went tacticals to get a feel for them this edition.
How many AT weapons are people taking at 2k? I thought 4 lascannons, 3 multi Meltas, 1 meltagun, 8 plasma guns and 3 grav cannons would suffice..
Bryan01 wrote: Aye, I could fit a few units around Lias , still felt a bit blobby though. I think he goes well with allot of units, I just went tacticals to get a feel for them this edition.
How many AT weapons are people taking at 2k? I thought 4 lascannons, 3 multi Meltas, 1 meltagun, 8 plasma guns and 3 grav cannons would suffice..
I have four Lascannons, 4 Missile Launchers, five Combi-Plasma, five Combi-Melta, a Vindicator (can do AT in a pinch), and a Power Fist (last resort). The Combi-Weapons are in Assault Cannon Razorbacks, so they won't be pulling duty on the first turn, but they should be able to get to where they need to be by turn two to help clean up what the ML and LC have left.
buddha wrote: For gunline support is there any reason to take anything other than a big standard captain? Gravis and terminator armor offer different benefits but I'm not sure the point increase of ether is worth it just to get those sweet reroll aura.
Only if you're concerned about your captain being sniped out from under you. I don't think the Gravis captain is worth taking for gunline support (too melee centric) but terminator armor would bring some benifits. that could be useful if you where concerned about snipers
I’d give him some basic gear (power weapon, maybe a plasma pistol for looks), but I think the normal power armor guy is quite viable for that role. No reason to spend the points for the better amor. And having that aura for your firebase is a very nice thing to have.
if I was gonna take a captain for a gunline, I'd give him a combi-plas or stormbolter. allow him to supplement the gunline he's working with.
I’d give him some basic gear (power weapon, maybe a plasma pistol for looks), but I think the normal power armor guy is quite viable for that role. No reason to spend the points for the better amor. And having that aura for your firebase is a very nice thing to have.
if I was gonna take a captain for a gunline, I'd give him a combi-plas or stormbolter. allow him to supplement the gunline he's working with.
I was going to reply with a “Keep him cheep, save the points for real guns”, but then I thought about the changes to combi weapons in 8th. Giving him a combi plas costs 2 more points then just adding a normal plasma gun somewhere else, and he hits on a 2+ He’ll always be in his re-roll bubble, so go crazy on the overcharge. And it’s not one shot anymore.
And stormbolters are a good deal for what you get. Even if you don’t want to sink a lot of points into the captain, it’s probably worth finding the 2 for the SB.
And 4 for a power sword. It’s a small investment to turn his attacks into something a little more viable.
Huh, just looked at the basic captain on foot entry. I forgot they could take a master crafted bolter. Only 3 points, and it’s RF1, S4, -1AP and 2D . Not a bad choice for a bare-bones gunline captain.
buddha wrote: For gunline support is there any reason to take anything other than a big standard captain? Gravis and terminator armor offer different benefits but I'm not sure the point increase of ether is worth it just to get those sweet reroll aura.
Only if you're concerned about your captain being sniped out from under you. I don't think the Gravis captain is worth taking for gunline support (too melee centric) but terminator armor would bring some benifits. that could be useful if you where concerned about snipers
I’d give him some basic gear (power weapon, maybe a plasma pistol for looks), but I think the normal power armor guy is quite viable for that role. No reason to spend the points for the better amor. And having that aura for your firebase is a very nice thing to have.
if I was gonna take a captain for a gunline, I'd give him a combi-plas or stormbolter. allow him to supplement the gunline he's working with.
I've had good success with a storm bolter + power axe Captain. Cheap, helps the plasma guns overcharge more safely, and decently effective in shooting and melee.
Well with the new information on the Reivers revealed, they seem like they could be a great toolbox unit at 17 points a piece and the potential to deny overwatch.
Looking forward to seeing the full rules. Here's hoping they have something like concealed positions so they don't have to rely on a new primaris transport to get them up the board.
Only cost i've seen for them is 18 per man, either way if they have an infiltrate/deep strike rule equivalent then i think they'll be a major boon to work with other assault units, otherwise i don't see myself wanting to pay for a probably expensive transport along with them for a unit that won't do huge damage itself but looks more like it has to work with other units
Likewise. They seem like that should be how they are used, but time will tell. It would be dumb if the only way they could make it up the field is in a transport. And since the only Primaris Transport is probably going to be 300+ pts, it would be a stupid concept. So if they can't do a Scout deploy, I am out.
Honestly, I am very close to out on Primaris Marines anyway.
I'm holding off ruling them out quite yet, 18 points is pretty cheap just for the durability these guys have, and we HAVE had references to them infiltrating or deepstriking so far
GAdvance wrote: I'm holding off ruling them out quite yet, 18 points is pretty cheap just for the durability these guys have, and we HAVE had references to them infiltrating or deepstriking so far
If they can, they will be replacing my Vindicare Assassin.
GAdvance wrote: I'm holding off ruling them out quite yet, 18 points is pretty cheap just for the durability these guys have, and we HAVE had references to them infiltrating or deepstriking so far
If they can, they will be replacing my Vindicare Assassin.
GAdvance wrote: I'm holding off ruling them out quite yet, 18 points is pretty cheap just for the durability these guys have, and we HAVE had references to them infiltrating or deepstriking so far
If they can, they will be replacing my Vindicare Assassin.
I wouldn't go THAT far...
Doesn't matter. The official stats for the Reivers show them to be utter crap. Not worth their points. Again, another Primaris unit that will require a $100/300+ pt transport to get to where it needs to be. Very disappointing.
Starter box rules, we know from other material that its a 5-10 man unit, here it's 3 only, we also know they aren't going to be ultras only which they are here,
has there been an FAQ yet on taking 2 chainswords?
my thoughts here are why would ever equip a model with a bolt pistol (unless for thematic/cool reasons) when each space marine inherently has one?
if you have the bits, 2 chainswords gives you +2 attacks and they still come with their bolt pistol.
benlac wrote: has there been an FAQ yet on taking 2 chainswords?
my thoughts here are why would ever equip a model with a bolt pistol (unless for thematic/cool reasons) when each space marine inherently has one?
if you have the bits, 2 chainswords gives you +2 attacks and they still come with their bolt pistol.
Its only useful if you have two attacks base to put into each chainsword.
benlac wrote: has there been an FAQ yet on taking 2 chainswords? my thoughts here are why would ever equip a model with a bolt pistol (unless for thematic/cool reasons) when each space marine inherently has one? if you have the bits, 2 chainswords gives you +2 attacks and they still come with their bolt pistol.
Its only useful if you have two attacks base to put into each chainsword.
How so? It doesn't say you get an extra attack when you use the weapon, just when you fight. If a model has a power fist and a chainsword, and let's say 2 attacks, it could use both base attacks on the power fist, then get a chainsword attack.
Unless you meant something else, like it needs more attacks to be worth it or something.
benlac wrote: has there been an FAQ yet on taking 2 chainswords?
my thoughts here are why would ever equip a model with a bolt pistol (unless for thematic/cool reasons) when each space marine inherently has one?
if you have the bits, 2 chainswords gives you +2 attacks and they still come with their bolt pistol.
Its only useful if you have two attacks base to put into each chainsword.
How so? It doesn't say you get an extra attack when you use the weapon, just when you fight. If a model has a power fist and a chainsword, and let's say 2 attacks, it could use both base attacks on the power fist, then get a chainsword attack.
Unless you meant something else, like it needs more attacks to be worth it or something.
Oh could of sworn it had the same wording as most weapons that give you extra attacks (like big stompy feet that says for each attack you allocate into this weapon you get 3 more attacks or something like that.
though it kinda does with the "with this weapon" part at the end.
GAdvance wrote: You don't auto get a bolt pistol, the units that can swap out their pistol for a chainsword LOSE the bolt pistol.
A Battle Sister Superior starts with Boltgun and Bolt Pistol.
FAQ says: "The Sister Superior may take a weapon from the Melee Weapons list.’ to get a Chainsword
She can then Swap her Boltgun for another Chainsword (or other melee weapon)
and she retains her Bolt Pistol
So she can wield a pair of chainswords and still keep her Bolt Pistol - sweet.conversion oportunity and 4 attacks in melee combat, only strength 3 though.
benlac wrote: has there been an FAQ yet on taking 2 chainswords?
my thoughts here are why would ever equip a model with a bolt pistol (unless for thematic/cool reasons) when each space marine inherently has one?
if you have the bits, 2 chainswords gives you +2 attacks and they still come with their bolt pistol.
Its only useful if you have two attacks base to put into each chainsword.
How so? It doesn't say you get an extra attack when you use the weapon, just when you fight. If a model has a power fist and a chainsword, and let's say 2 attacks, it could use both base attacks on the power fist, then get a chainsword attack.
Unless you meant something else, like it needs more attacks to be worth it or something.
Yeah, I guess it's only select models it can work for, so not that useful 99% of the time.
"each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon". 'this weapon' has me thinking you get 2 additional attacks for 2 chainswords because you have this ability twice. So if you have 2 attacks base you could have 4 when equipped with two chainswords.
Cease and desist from writing off Reivers until we see their actual rules. We don't know what guns they can have or anything. In fact, this applies to intercessors, inceptors and hellblasters as well.
We don't know if they can deep strike or infiltrate. Read the promo text for First Strike, as well as the datasheet in it. It says i comes wiht a mat that tells you where to put your models. It tells you how to deploy, so for all we know it might show the Reivers infiltrated somewhere.
Oh and the repulsor will cost more than a rhino because it's tougher than one, and is armed with loads of guns. So yes, it would be a very expensive transport for reivers or hellblasters, but you would get a bunch of powerful guns mounted on a tough platform for that price.
Anyway I played a game on Monday night using 75 power level (I’d have preferred points, but whatever) against grey knights.
I put a squad of 3 las/missile centurions in a bunker. They performed really well, mainly because the GKs couldn’t hurt the bunker much at range, and they shot everything dead before it got near them. They’d have been quite vulnerable in the open but were cozy and safe indoors. I might upgrade the bunker to a bastion in future because T9 and 20 wounds would be really serious protection.
The bunker had a quad gun on the roof, because power levels made it free, but I don’t recall it actually doing anything. -1 to hit non-flyers is a problem if none of your opponent’s models fly. Can’t really complain that my free gun didn’t do much, though!
Another useful unit was my relic deredeo with an anvillus autocannon array and atomantic pavise. It’s very accurate and has a lot of shots at S8. The downside is only -1AP, which was a problem as my opponent’s army all had 2+ saves, but it hits things over and over again, so some wounds do get through. Doing a flat two wounds per hit meant it was a real threat to termies. It would chew anything with a 4+ save or worse to pieces. Draigo and a dreadknight teleported in to try and kill it but it shot 4 wounds off the dreadknight and 2 off draigo – and they both failed their charges. It did eventually die but the 4++ in combat made it live through a round of combat with Draigo and limp away.
Contemptors are really cool now. A move of 9” makes a massive difference, significantly increasing their threat range, and hitting on a 2+ in melee hurts a lot. Mine went on a rampage through an enemy terminator squad, who it killed without taking any damage, and seized the objective they were guarding. Then it sat around happily firing its kheres assault cannon at other termies until Draigo gated himself next to it and purged its soul for 7 mortal wounds (LD10 vs 8 – he rolled a 6 and I rolled a 1!). Oh well.
I wasn’t impressed by my troops – which were two 5-man tactical squads and some scout snipers. Lacking AP made them hopeless against terminators and dreadknights. I blew 2 CPs to have a power fist sergeant swing against a charging dreadknight before it, but he didn’t hurt it.
In other news, Draigo is a meanie. But he, and a wounded terminator, were the only living GKs by the end of turn 4. In fairness, everything of mine was dead by this point too, apart from my bunker containing my centurions, captain and CB techmarine. I won on VPs.
The techmarine was actually kind of good. He is a reasonably cheap HQ with a gun that actually does things, so he’s a good option if you’re running a fortification (if you are not, auras are probably more useful). I’m not sure if I could actually have had him get out and repair the bunker, if it had been damaged. Probably not, as it wouldn’t have the right keywords.
The price does seem low. It looks like it's based on taking a normal contemptor and sticking lascannons on it instead of looking at what a contemptor with 4 lascannons is actually worth.
Hardly the worst thing FW have ever written, but clearly not good.
Tbh though i htink the problem is the predator nto the relic contemptor, the predator for some reason lost a point of toughness compared to the vindicator which has always been the same armour wise
GAdvance wrote: Well it can take 1 less wound before degrading.
Tbh though i htink the problem is the predator nto the relic contemptor, the predator for some reason lost a point of toughness compared to the vindicator which has always been the same armour wise
Yeah that bumbs me out a bit. also makes the FW reinforced armor bits pointless.
Razor back with twin linked heavy flame (Assault weapon). Concede first turn to enemy. You advance until you are in their face, shoot your flaming gun of furry.
Turn 2, enemy shoots at your razorback - maybe even charges it. Razorback tanks like a boss. On your turn you disembark 6 sternguard veterans with combi flamer bolters.
Incase of your razorback being in combat it falls back. You shoot the enemy unit with 6 bolters - rapid fire 1. So 12 bolter shots average of 3+ = 10 hits. Then flamers average of 3.5 hits per flamer x6 = 21 auto hits
Total of 31 hits. Then you charge in and hit them again with chainswords and whatnot.
Sounds like a plan?
Now imagine an army with two of those squads and assault terminators coming in on turn 2.
the_Jakman wrote: Consider comparing a quad las Predator to a quad las Mortis Contemptor. (assuming full wounds)
The Mortis Contemptor has WS2+ (vs 6+), BS2+ (vs 3+), S7 (vs 6), 4A (vs 3) and a 5++. For 206pts.
The Predator has a 12"move (vs 9", +1W and the option to take a stormbolter and HK missile. For 202pts.
Those extra 4 points get you a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over the Predator, Unless I've missed something?
Predators are extremely overpriced (their hull costs >30 points more than a Rhino despite being worse), so comparing them to units with similar roles ends up looking pretty bad. That's not really Forge World's fault, though - you can do a similar comparison with Razorbacks or Devastators. I feel like Predators were priced or tested at toughness 8 and got busted down to 7 late in development - all the units with similar armor from the previous editions (VIndicator, Exorcist, Ironclad) are T8 now, as are the Hunter/Stalker which actually had worse armor than the Predator.
Razor back with twin linked heavy flame (Assault weapon). Concede first turn to enemy. You advance until you are in their face, shoot your flaming gun of furry.
Turn 2, enemy shoots at your razorback - maybe even charges it. Razorback tanks like a boss. On your turn you disembark 6 sternguard veterans with combi flamer bolters.
Incase of your razorback being in combat it falls back. You shoot the enemy unit with 6 bolters - rapid fire 1. So 12 bolter shots average of 3+ = 10 hits. Then flamers average of 3.5 hits per flamer x6 = 21 auto hits
Total of 31 hits. Then you charge in and hit them again with chainswords and whatnot.
Sounds like a plan?
Now imagine an army with two of those squads and assault terminators coming in on turn 2.
Twin Heavy Flamers have been errata'd to be Heavy 2d6, so this strategy doesn't work anymore.
On the point of the predator armour value, whilst I agree that it could do with being stronger I can see GW's thinking behind it.
This is a new edition, forget what stats and rules things used to have. A vindicator model has more armour on it than a rhino thus has more toughness. The same is true for the stalker/hunter model and the exorcist.
The predator model has exactly the same model hull as a rhino and razorback thus has the same durability stats.
Everything in the new rules is designed around the models they make, pure and simple.
I'm hoping for a predator price drop when the marine codex arrives, I don't think it will have a stat change.
On the Predator armour thing, it's more that the Vindicator had its toughness increased in line with its fluff and model, rather than the predator being nerfed. The Predator has always been described as a medium tank and it would be odd if it was as tough as a LR (either kind!).
It's also clearly not overpriced. The shooting that thing produces for its cost is seriously efficient.
That ultramarine chapter tactic is pretty interesting. It's very powerful. Wonder what my imperial fists will get, and who it applies to - whether it's just infantry as before or if vehicles get it. Redeemers that didn't care about being charged would be pretty serious.
Mandragola wrote: Wonder what my imperial fists will get, and who it applies to - whether it's just infantry as before or if vehicles get it.
Im dying to know my self.
since the UM one is so wide spread..
rerolls of 1s for all bolter type weapon is 99% for sure
the second part (if we even get one) is probably Dev/heavy supports get to do a thing. the previous edition it was reroll pen right? then we probably will get reroll wounds.
I'd love to see the re-rolls of 1 again. If not I'd also like to see something like -1AP on all bolt weapons (feels like we're sorely missing that at the moment for bringing down hordes).
With the Ultras rules being completely army-wide, I'm not sure we'll see something Devastator specific. Heavy Support buffs could be cool though.
I'd also love to see Lysander get a few more unique rules and become a bit more appealing to use, he's one of the reasons I started the army.
JJ wrote: I'd love to see the re-rolls of 1 again. If not I'd also like to see something like -1AP on all bolt weapons (feels like we're sorely missing that at the moment for bringing down hordes).
With the Ultras rules being completely army-wide, I'm not sure we'll see something Devastator specific. Heavy Support buffs could be cool though.
I'd also love to see Lysander get a few more unique rules and become a bit more appealing to use, he's one of the reasons I started the army.
JJ wrote: I'd love to see the re-rolls of 1 again. If not I'd also like to see something like -1AP on all bolt weapons (feels like we're sorely missing that at the moment for bringing down hordes).
With the Ultras rules being completely army-wide, I'm not sure we'll see something Devastator specific. Heavy Support buffs could be cool though.
I'd also love to see Lysander get a few more unique rules and become a bit more appealing to use, he's one of the reasons I started the army.
Besides hot ST10 no penalty thunder hammer?
I sat and compared him with my friend's Arjac model, who just seemed like a copy of him with better buffs for the guys around him and for less points.
JJ wrote: I'd love to see the re-rolls of 1 again. If not I'd also like to see something like -1AP on all bolt weapons (feels like we're sorely missing that at the moment for bringing down hordes).
With the Ultras rules being completely army-wide, I'm not sure we'll see something Devastator specific. Heavy Support buffs could be cool though.
I'd also love to see Lysander get a few more unique rules and become a bit more appealing to use, he's one of the reasons I started the army.
Besides hot ST10 no penalty thunder hammer?
I sat and compared him with my friend's Arjac model, who just seemed like a copy of him with better buffs for the guys around him and for less points.
But I may have missed something!
one less wound
less consistent weapon damage outside of characters or monsters.
Re-roll bolter 1s to hit would be sad, seeing as you'd want a captain around anyway to give that for any special weapons in those squads. To wound would be better, i suppose, but hopefully they get something actually strong like +1 AP, assault 2, or count bolters as pistols.
jcd386 wrote: Re-roll bolter 1s to hit would be sad, seeing as you'd want a captain around anyway to give that for any special weapons in those squads. To wound would be better, i suppose, but hopefully they get something actually strong like +1 AP, assault 2, or count bolters as pistols.
Realistically its not happening. thats way over doing it.
Even the smurf ones arent actually that good.
realistically +1 ld is a throw away since most marines will basically never take moral or are already far dead to be effective. jumping out of assault is also going to be very minor as most assault themed armies would of mulched a shooty marine squad anyway.
Letting Bolters be used like pistols would be interesting actually, i don't think it'd be quite good enough on it's own but it's a cool start that makes me think of Imperial Fists firing and holding the line whilst being ripped at by hormagaunts and instead of switching to knives and fists just calmly firing and reloading
GAdvance wrote: Letting Bolters be used like pistols would be interesting actually, i don't think it'd be quite good enough on it's own but it's a cool start that makes me think of Imperial Fists firing and holding the line whilst being ripped at by hormagaunts and instead of switching to knives and fists just calmly firing and reloading
Sounds really cool.
honestly im hoping they do justice and make all the chapter tactics super cool but not overly derp.
Seems pretty strong! Really hoping the other chapters get something as impactful as that.
This seems very good.
I hope the Imperial Fists rules are this good. Re-roll 1's on all bolters is probably going to be at least one of the two rules, and I'll be fine with that. I think it's better than people think.
so far the UM are exceptionally minor or wont ever come into play.
The Leadership bonus is minor, but falling back and shooting is a huge advantage.
From the NR thread, the only time you ever really assault is
A) with a dedicated Assault unit that will for the most part end a unit they charge. B) to shock lock with transports though if that is the case you just commit 1.5 units to 2+ which isnt that good of a situation. C) locking down vehicles (they dont get CT so we are good here) D) swarm locking to bog down a unit for a few turns with some flavor of horde.
asides from D (which a ton of people complain about anyway) B) is the only situation where there is a benefit and i cant see people using it as a viable tactic. (maybe its more a tau tactic im not sure)
What? Why are you assuming that you're the one that assaulted? You can fall back the turn after you get charged by the opponent, and then immediately fire all your weapons.
Am I the only one that is positively giddy with anticipation for what my Chapter's Tactics will be? Will Crimson Fists get their own Chapter Tactics (adapted from their altered battle tactics used by Pedro Kantor), or will they have reverted to using standard Imperial Fists Tactics since they have been bolstered by Primaris Marines? Heck, I am excited to see what others get. Will Black Templars be able to maximize their Ripping and Tearing? They can't take Psykers, maybe they will still get to deny the witch like bosses? Will Raven Guard get to Infiltrate their Tactical Marines? Will White Scars get some variation of Hit and Run (though Ultramarines kinda stole their thunder there). Maximum Burnination for Salamanders? Vehicles with healing ability for Iron Hands?
I am excited for the new codex. I still think Chapter Tactics should be -1 CP in order to have them in effect, though.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I the only one that is positively giddy with anticipation for what my Chapter's Tactics will be? Will Crimson Fists get their own Chapter Tactics (adapted from their altered battle tactics used by Pedro Kantor), or will they have reverted to using standard Imperial Fists Tactics since they have been bolstered by Primaris Marines? Heck, I am excited to see what others get. Will Black Templars be able to maximize their Ripping and Tearing? They can't take Psykers, maybe they will still get to deny the witch like bosses? Will Raven Guard get to Infiltrate their Tactical Marines? Will White Scars get some variation of Hit and Run (though Ultramarines kinda stole their thunder there). Maximum Burnination for Salamanders? Vehicles with healing ability for Iron Hands?
I am excited for the new codex. I still think Chapter Tactics should be -1 CP in order to have them in effect, though.
I am excited also to see if FW does any of the "use such and such tactics" for the FW Chapters that have characters but didn't get fully fleshed out CTs.
I'd be surprised if the FW chapters don't get chapter tactics similar to how they did before, even if a lot of them will get ultras tactics from being successors.
My biggest fear is that it will just take ages, or be in an expensive book, my biggest hope is that they come with unique relics and strategems though, either way can't wait to get my Carcharadons properly tearing into the enemy
Hey y'all, if I may interject.
What units are most effective for melee? Trying to wrap my head around melee space marines but I'm not above using support units like conscript/priest or death cult assassins. What seems to be working for y'all?
CrimsonApostle wrote: Hey y'all, if I may interject.
What units are most effective for melee? Trying to wrap my head around melee space marines but I'm not above using support units like conscript/priest or death cult assassins. What seems to be working for y'all?
Vanguard Veterans, Terminators of all stripes, Reivers are set to be decent, honour guard, bikers, company veterans on bikes and dreadnoughts of all types.
Truth be told though marines aren't really a melee army and their best units for melee are all the independent characters, mix a librarians powers with a dread for instance and it's a force multiplier.
The best Marines assault units are also generally in the non-codex armies, death company, black knights, crusader squads and bloodclaws are all effective.
Really depends what sort of unit you want honestly, crusaders are he cheapest and become good when mixed with HQ's whereas VV or terminators can be he best but cost a bomb
The vanilla Marines don't make for a compelling close combat army. You can field 1-2 effective units in an otherwise traditional marine list and do okay, but I wouldn't focus an army on the strategy. TH/SS Terminators coming out of a LRC supported by a Terminator Chaplain and/or a Null Zone Terminator Librarian work well. Darnath Lysander is still a close combat beast, and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.
But if you want a whole army of power armor and close combat, you should probably be playing Blood Angels or Khorne Berserkers.
and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.
What do you reckon are good ways to kit out vanguard vets? I'm picking up two squads of them and have been torn as to how to equip them. Leaning towards having a squad of all lightning claws, though I'm not sure about the other ones. Thunderhammers are always great fun, but they get expensive quickly and that -1 to hit could hurt a bit. Storm shields seem like a must, but plasma pistols also seem pretty fantastic, especially if I can keep a captain nearby.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I the only one that is positively giddy with anticipation for what my Chapter's Tactics will be?
I'm slightly curious, but given GWs trackrecord of giving my Salamanders one of the worst chapter tactics out of all the chapters in every codex, I'm not exactly wetting my pants with glee.
With that said, any chapter tactic is better than none at all (which is the case currently), even if it becomes something lame like "A <Salamander> gain one additional hit when shooting with flamers and heavy flamers."
and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.
What do you reckon are good ways to kit out vanguard vets? I'm picking up two squads of them and have been torn as to how to equip them. Leaning towards having a squad of all lightning claws, though I'm not sure about the other ones. Thunderhammers are always great fun, but they get expensive quickly and that -1 to hit could hurt a bit. Storm shields seem like a must, but plasma pistols also seem pretty fantastic, especially if I can keep a captain nearby.
I think the prevailing opinion is plasma pistols and chainswords are the most effective loadout
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I the only one that is positively giddy with anticipation for what my Chapter's Tactics will be?
I'm slightly curious, but given GWs trackrecord of giving my Salamanders one of the worst chapter tactics out of all the chapters in every codex, I'm not exactly wetting my pants with glee.
With that said, any chapter tactic is better than none at all (which is the case currently), even if it becomes something lame like "A <Salamander> gain one additional hit when shooting with flamers and heavy flamers."
I imagine it will be more like can reroll wounds of 1 for all flamer and melta weapons, have an invul save against those weapons, or can reroll the d6 hits or d6 damage rolls.
and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.
What do you reckon are good ways to kit out vanguard vets? I'm picking up two squads of them and have been torn as to how to equip them. Leaning towards having a squad of all lightning claws, though I'm not sure about the other ones. Thunderhammers are always great fun, but they get expensive quickly and that -1 to hit could hurt a bit. Storm shields seem like a must, but plasma pistols also seem pretty fantastic, especially if I can keep a captain nearby.
The best vanguards are probly dual plasma pistol
But for melee it depends on their target. If you are hitting vehicles or monsters or multi wound heavy infantry thunder hammers remain the best. For hordes I am tempted to consider lightning claws with a couple of storm shields added in
I think Lightning claw cataphractii might be a decent option. They are quite solid and tanky. I could run a squad with Lysander for my fists, either teleporting in or in a storm eagle.
The "accept no substitute" imperial melee unit may be Custodes. I'm aware that they aren't marines. Somehow though, they manage to cost the same as assault terminators, or less. Hitting on 2s instead of 4s (with TH or PF) means they do comparable damage against even hard targets, while blending soft things (anything t4 or less) almost instantly. And they even have guns.
Mandragola wrote: I think Lightning claw cataphractii might be a decent option. They are quite solid and tanky. I could run a squad with Lysander for my fists, either teleporting in or in a storm eagle.
The "accept no substitute" imperial melee unit may be Custodes. I'm aware that they aren't marines. Somehow though, they manage to cost the same as assault terminators, or less. Hitting on 2s instead of 4s (with TH or PF) means they do comparable damage against even hard targets, while blending soft things (anything t4 or less) almost instantly. And they even have guns.
Custodes are fun, but, eh. They don't teleport any more. They walk or take a 350 point land raider. That land raider is EXPENSIVE. And they don't get the chapter character synergies.
I wouldn't take a land raider for thundernators if I took thundernators. Just too many points, and that's a cheaper land raider
and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.
What do you reckon are good ways to kit out vanguard vets? I'm picking up two squads of them and have been torn as to how to equip them. Leaning towards having a squad of all lightning claws, though I'm not sure about the other ones. Thunderhammers are always great fun, but they get expensive quickly and that -1 to hit could hurt a bit. Storm shields seem like a must, but plasma pistols also seem pretty fantastic, especially if I can keep a captain nearby.
I like Chainsword + Plasma Pistol if they're accompanied by a Jump Pack Captain to mitigate potential self-destructive rolls. And/or kitting them with affordable power weapons and having a Jump Pack Chaplain near the squad to re-roll failed close combat to-hit rolls.
If you're going to use double plasma pistols why not instead just use veteran bikers (or normal bikers) with cheaper and better plasma guns that are just as mobile and hardier
Nah if you're using VV then imho plasma pistols are for a little extra flavour and you should either go for some storm shields and fancy weapons with a chaplain or double chainswords for cheap mass killing
GAdvance wrote: If you're going to use double plasma pistols why not instead just use veteran bikers (or normal bikers) with cheaper and better plasma guns that are just as mobile and hardier
Nah if you're using VV then imho plasma pistols are for a little extra flavour and you should either go for some storm shields and fancy weapons with a chaplain or double chainswords for cheap mass killing
Unless you have Shrike or a librarian in range, i disagree with that many melee points in VV.
You're that worries about failing charges i guess?
also i run an almost all melee marine army with my Carcharadons so i guess it's kind of a unique situation where if one unit fails a charge 2 others have made it
Death Company with just standard bolt pistol/chainswords and Lemartes are great against Horde. Take a 15 man unit and charge 2 different squads that way they stay tied up. Only 20 points each for 4 attacks on the charge in cc. 6+ ignore wounds, not Death Guard tough but a little tougher than your average space marine.
If you want to do the double chainsword option on Vanguard Veterans for infantry churn and burn, and you play BT, Helbrecht is a good option. Wound T4 infantry on a 3+ with those chainsword attacks. I tried out Vanguard Vets on foot with BP/CS with Helbrecht a couple times and it didn't work out that great, but I'd be willing to try it again.
If point costs don't change, I'm definitely putting together some plasma pistol gunslingers.
I swear, if those new Inceptors are wielding short range plasma cannons, I will die a happy man.
Also, confirmation that there will be 7 Chapter Tactics(same as the 7E C:SM) in the new Codex and 8 Chapter-Specific Warlord Traits (Crimson Fists being the eighth in addition to the other seven). Each Warlord trait chapter gets a unique Relic. No real word on if there will be more relics beyond that.
GAdvance wrote: If you're going to use double plasma pistols why not instead just use veteran bikers (or normal bikers) with cheaper and better plasma guns that are just as mobile and hardier
Nah if you're using VV then imho plasma pistols are for a little extra flavour and you should either go for some storm shields and fancy weapons with a chaplain or double chainswords for cheap mass killing
Because bikers are not, themselves, cheaper. You are trying to minimize cost for effect. Also your bikers might be shot to death before they do anything
Traceoftoxin wrote: One of the best melee options is Company Veteran spam. Minimum squads are 2 bodies, 1 of which is a 3A sgt. Easy to get elite slots.
Wouldn't honor guard fill this role better? 1 extra wound, 2+ save, relic blades, though I guess a lot of weapons invalidate the usefulness of 2 wounds
Traceoftoxin wrote: One of the best melee options is Company Veteran spam. Minimum squads are 2 bodies, 1 of which is a 3A sgt. Easy to get elite slots.
Wouldn't honor guard fill this role better? 1 extra wound, 2+ save, relic blades, though I guess a lot of weapons invalidate the usefulness of 2 wounds
Honor Guard are way better defensively, only 12.5 pts a wound with a 2+ is great. But only 2A each hurts. Definitely a strong choice, and better against armored targets, but, weight of attacks is a very real thing.
If you are playing with 2xchainswords = +2 attacks, you can have 9 attacks for 32 pts per pair. It's not orks, but, it's some of the most chop per point we can get.
Alternatively, you can take chainsword+stormbolter, and get 8 shots and 7 attacks per pair for only a smidgen more. 40 shots and 35 attacks on the charge is pretty solid for less than 200 pts.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I swear, if those new Inceptors are wielding short range plasma cannons, I will die a happy man.
Also, confirmation that there will be 7 Chapter Tactics(same as the 7E C:SM) in the new Codex and 8 Chapter-Specific Warlord Traits (Crimson Fists being the eighth in addition to the other seven). Each Warlord trait chapter gets a unique Relic. No real word on if there will be more relics beyond that.
As a fellow Fist player, hail brother!
I'm hoping for some kind of special overwatch (hit on a 5+ with overwatch... or maybe shoot Bolters at normal BS when shooting overwatch?) for the fists, plus something to reflect their tenancity.
Make them an absolute PITA to charge when you blob them up.
We already get re-rolls to hit and damage with a Lt and Captain/ Kantor.
It better be something tasty to make up for the lack of special characters the Ultramarines and other favored Chapters get (including the return of all the Primarchs).
Has most cost efficient heavy weapons been discussed? So far I am really liking lascannons for vehicle hunting and missile launchers for their adaptability. Has anyone had any success with Grav-cannons? I found I haven't liked regular grav guns.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I swear, if those new Inceptors are wielding short range plasma cannons, I will die a happy man.
Also, confirmation that there will be 7 Chapter Tactics(same as the 7E C:SM) in the new Codex and 8 Chapter-Specific Warlord Traits (Crimson Fists being the eighth in addition to the other seven). Each Warlord trait chapter gets a unique Relic. No real word on if there will be more relics beyond that.
As a fellow Fist player, hail brother!
I'm hoping for some kind of special overwatch (hit on a 5+ with overwatch... or maybe shoot Bolters at normal BS when shooting overwatch?) for the fists, plus something to reflect their tenancity.
Make them an absolute PITA to charge when you blob them up.
We already get re-rolls to hit and damage with a Lt and Captain/ Kantor.
It better be something tasty to make up for the lack of special characters the Ultramarines and other favored Chapters get (including the return of all the Primarchs).
I would be very disappointing if Fists got bolter re-rolls because so many things give them re-rolls now that it would just be stupid to give them fairly pointless re-rolls. What I would LOVE to see if their bolters get +1 strength across the board. Now that would be very scary to face and maybe too scary. Perhaps another shot on each bolter? A bonus to rending feels more like a marksmen thing, but more firepower would make sense. I could then see there being devastator related traits like re-rolling to wound against vehicles/monsters as well something related to dueling enemy characters as that is something that is featured prominently in their lore, but perhaps that part would be better used on the Black Templars.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I would be very disappointing if Fists got bolter re-rolls because so many things give them re-rolls now that it would just be stupid to give them fairly pointless re-rolls.
Exactly - already getting re-rolls from Captains etc. Its a waste.
I like the better overwatch with Bolters (Bolters hit on a normal BS on overwatch instead of a 6?) because it fits the fluff of the Imperal and Crimson Fists being a 'defensive' chapter.
We can blob up and be a real PITA to charge through a hail of bolter rounds.
What I would LOVE to see if their bolters get +1 strength across the board.
Gong from Str 4 to 5 isnt that huge a deal, and would rarely come into play. Strength 4, 6 and 8 (and 9) is where the real money is.
Gong from Str 4 to 5 isnt that huge a deal, and would rarely come into play. Strength 4, 6 and 8 (and 9) is where the real money is.
Seems like a reasonably big deal to me. Wounding T4 (very common) on 3+ instead of 4s, wounding T8 on 5s instead of 6s (also very common).
This^.
Going from S4 to S5 is pretty damn huge.
You wouldn't even need anti-tank, since massed IF bolterfire @S5 would punch trough heavy armour (T8) simply by weight of attacks.
Gong from Str 4 to 5 isnt that huge a deal, and would rarely come into play. Strength 4, 6 and 8 (and 9) is where the real money is.
Seems like a reasonably big deal to me. Wounding T4 (very common) on 3+ instead of 4s, wounding T8 on 5s instead of 6s (also very common).
This^.
Going from S4 to S5 is pretty damn huge.
You wouldn't even need anti-tank, since massed IF bolterfire @S5 would punch trough heavy armour (T8) simply by weight of attacks.
Nope.
Imagine taking 12 wounds off a Leman Russ. T8 and 3+ save. 1/9 hits is a wound (1/6 for intercessors). Hitting on a 3+ you'd need 162 bolter shots to achieve that, or 108 from intercessors. Imagine trying to take down a storm raven or a land raider.
You might do the occasional wound, but it's not enough on its own - for the same reason people don't just use assault cannons now. Guns that do multiple wounds, and wound easily with significant AP, are required.
Honestly if they do something for salamanders with flamers and meltas again...holy crap that is scary.
Also has anyone been running lieutenants? I think their aura is one of the best since re-roll hits is pretty easy to come by but re-roll wounds....that is where the money is at.
Gong from Str 4 to 5 isnt that huge a deal, and would rarely come into play. Strength 4, 6 and 8 (and 9) is where the real money is.
Seems like a reasonably big deal to me. Wounding T4 (very common) on 3+ instead of 4s, wounding T8 on 5s instead of 6s (also very common).
This^.
Going from S4 to S5 is pretty damn huge.
You wouldn't even need anti-tank, since massed IF bolterfire @S5 would punch trough heavy armour (T8) simply by weight of attacks.
Nope.
Imagine taking 12 wounds off a Leman Russ. T8 and 3+ save. 1/9 hits is a wound (1/6 for intercessors). Hitting on a 3+ you'd need 162 bolter shots to achieve that, or 108 from intercessors. Imagine trying to take down a storm raven or a land raider.
You might do the occasional wound, but it's not enough on its own - for the same reason people don't just use assault cannons now. Guns that do multiple wounds, and wound easily with significant AP, are required.
That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is; You just doubled the effectiveness of bolters against a Lemun Russ/T8, and by about 33% against T4. Not to the point you are trying to go out and hunt down Leman Russes with pure bolters, but it's a sizable jump in damage output.
Leth wrote: Honestly if they do something for salamanders with flamers and meltas again...holy crap that is scary.
Also has anyone been running lieutenants? I think their aura is one of the best since re-roll hits is pretty easy to come by but re-roll wounds....that is where the money is at.
Iv run a dumpster list (grabbed whatever i had that was painted or built) with the full dark imperium box, 3 vindicators and 2 preds in a double spear head formation.
it worked out ok.
didnt help that i was too clumped up when a vindicator was first turn exploded followed by 13 mortal wounds from an explosion across like 7 units.
Sonminiser wrote: Has most cost efficient heavy weapons been discussed? So far I am really liking lascannons for vehicle hunting and missile launchers for their adaptability. Has anyone had any success with Grav-cannons? I found I haven't liked regular grav guns.
Drop Pods and Bikes for Grav Guns, in my 8th edition experience so far. You want to get them into position quick to mitigate their range drawback. But there are some squads that can get busted apart by Podding in Grav-Cannon devastators...
Sonminiser wrote: Has most cost efficient heavy weapons been discussed? So far I am really liking lascannons for vehicle hunting and missile launchers for their adaptability. Has anyone had any success with Grav-cannons? I found I haven't liked regular grav guns.
Had more luck with Meltas than Lascannons probably because of the AP-4 and same D6 Damage, long distance shooting the Lascannons and Autocannons are good if standing still.
My favourite platform so far is the Venerable Dreadnought with BS2+ with 2 Twin Autocannons 8 shots at S7 AP-1 and D2, almost ditching my Las Predator for 2 Dreadnoughts with Lascannon and Autocannon each. BS2+ it's huge.
Used Gravs but they are hard to play in rapid fire range the way i'm set up and not worth it imo.
Sonminiser wrote: Has most cost efficient heavy weapons been discussed? So far I am really liking lascannons for vehicle hunting and missile launchers for their adaptability. Has anyone had any success with Grav-cannons? I found I haven't liked regular grav guns.
Had more luck with Meltas than Lascannons probably because of the AP-4 and same D6 Damage, long distance shooting the Lascannons and Autocannons are good if standing still.
My favourite platform so far is the Venerable Dreadnought with BS2+ with 2 Twin Autocannons 8 shots at S7 AP-1 and D2, almost ditching my Las Predator for 2 Dreadnoughts with Lascannon and Autocannon each. BS2+ it's huge.
Used Gravs but they are hard to play in rapid fire range the way i'm set up and not worth it imo.
Definitely want to give rifledreads a shot again. so far lascannons are still the work horse.
but managed to drop a 2 grav 2 mmdev squad in a pod and nearlly wiped out a full bike squad and a nice chuck of a storm raven.
Sonminiser wrote: Has most cost efficient heavy weapons been discussed? So far I am really liking lascannons for vehicle hunting and missile launchers for their adaptability. Has anyone had any success with Grav-cannons? I found I haven't liked regular grav guns.
Had more luck with Meltas than Lascannons probably because of the AP-4 and same D6 Damage, long distance shooting the Lascannons and Autocannons are good if standing still.
My favourite platform so far is the Venerable Dreadnought with BS2+ with 2 Twin Autocannons 8 shots at S7 AP-1 and D2, almost ditching my Las Predator for 2 Dreadnoughts with Lascannon and Autocannon each. BS2+ it's huge.
Used Gravs but they are hard to play in rapid fire range the way i'm set up and not worth it imo.
Definitely want to give rifledreads a shot again. so far lascannons are still the work horse.
but managed to drop a 2 grav 2 mmdev squad in a pod and nearlly wiped out a full bike squad and a nice chuck of a storm raven.
Due to bad dice rolls lately I rather rely on the Dreadnought , still using Predator as I don't have an alternative atm.
Love the Meltas near Helbrecht who has one himself and the MM on LRC, rerolling failed hits Melta drop also did decent but was on a suicide mission and Deathwind Launcher always rolling 1 Hit roll...
Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
Well, the RGCT will really help my dreads out, and the warlord trait (no overwatch) combined with the relic (reroll charges) means my warlord is now a deepstriking monster.
Desubot wrote: Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
You can just pay 3cp to turn a captain into a chapter master now, i's a new marines stratagem
Desubot wrote: Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
They do make a difference, never had a Chapter Master model?
Think Helbrecht is not such a huge deal, all BT Characters buff Combat and I don't see anyone taking him on a pure shooty squad at 170pts not benefiting from S+1, so sure my units around him are quite good but then I've got Chainswords...
Desubot wrote: Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
You can just pay 3cp to turn a captain into a chapter master now, i's a new marines stratagem
Yeah a heard about that. still cheesed though. you are putting your self at a major disadvantage vs people that are "privileged" to have a named chapter master.
its a minor quip though. im sure everyone will get cool things once the codex drops.
Desubot wrote: Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
They do make a difference, never had a Chapter Master model?
Think Helbrecht is not such a huge deal, all BT Characters buff Combat and I don't see anyone taking him on a pure shooty squad at 170pts not benefiting from S+1, so sure my units around him are quite good but then I've got Chainswords...
Its all rerolls to hits not just shooting so he greatly benefits CC based units sitting around with a few melta/combi melta guns.
I have like 14 different chapter master/ captain models rolling around . imperial fists just dont have access to it outside of this new unreleased stratigem.
Desubot wrote: Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
You can just pay 3cp to turn a captain into a chapter master now, i's a new marines stratagem
Yeah a heard about that. still cheesed though. you are putting your self at a major disadvantage vs people that are "privileged" to have a named chapter master.
its a minor quip though. im sure everyone will get cool things once the codex drops.
Desubot wrote: Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
They do make a difference, never had a Chapter Master model?
Think Helbrecht is not such a huge deal, all BT Characters buff Combat and I don't see anyone taking him on a pure shooty squad at 170pts not benefiting from S+1, so sure my units around him are quite good but then I've got Chainswords...
Its all rerolls to hits not just shooting so he greatly benefits CC based units sitting around with a few melta/combi melta guns.
I have like 14 different chapter master/ captain models rolling around . imperial fists just dont have access to it outside of this new unreleased stratigem.
Looking at the Index you're right, everyone has a Master, any fluff reason why you shouldn't? I'm sure you'll get cool stuff in the new Codex, For Dorn!
Looking at the Index you're right, everyone has a Master, any fluff reason why you shouldn't? I'm sure you'll get cool stuff in the new Codex, For Dorn!
Edit: wow i really did read that wrong :X
the only people that get a Chapter masters (diffrence of rerolling 1s and rerolling all to hits) is Smurfs, Black templar, Crimson fists, White scars, and raven guard. Imperial fists gets lysander the captain, and sally gets vulken a captain. Iron hands get shafted.
Desubot wrote: Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
You can just pay 3cp to turn a captain into a chapter master now, i's a new marines stratagem
Yeah a heard about that. still cheesed though. you are putting your self at a major disadvantage vs people that are "privileged" to have a named chapter master.
its a minor quip though. im sure everyone will get cool things once the codex drops.
Whilst i do have that privilege i also have to pay over 200 points for my chapter master, though i'll admit he's damn well worth it
Desubot wrote: Im honestly still cheesed that black templars and a bunch of other marines get chapter masters while imp fists gets shafted. (im a bad roller i could REALLY use those rerolls :X)
I'm REALLY hoping that Vorn Hagen is lurking in the codex and will be a nice little surprise for Fists players. From browsing the forums recently it seems like one of the more popular chapters, but we're currently stuck with just the one badass!
Man the RG chapter tactics are cool. I foresee a devastator / dakka Dread firebase with infiltrating and deep striking forward elements army in my future.
They also make footslogging Primaris and Cent units much more durable / usable I think.
jcd386 wrote: Man the RG chapter tactics are cool. I foresee a devastator / dakka Dread firebase with infiltrating and deep striking forward elements army in my future.
They also make footslogging Primaris and Cent units much more durable / usable I think.
Man can you imagine like a 6man centurion squad with all the heavy bolters and hurricane bolters you can eat popping up 9" away just deleting something. or even discount assault marines with all the fixins and no jump packs poping up 9" for a charge.
jcd386 wrote: Man the RG chapter tactics are cool. I foresee a devastator / dakka Dread firebase with infiltrating and deep striking forward elements army in my future.
They also make footslogging Primaris and Cent units much more durable / usable I think.
Man can you imagine like a 6man centurion squad with all the heavy bolters and hurricane bolters you can eat popping up 9" away just deleting something. or even discount assault marines with all the fixins and no jump packs poping up 9" for a charge.
It seems very good for sure, especially if it's before the game starts, meaning they can move and assault on the first turn, but is limited by CP which I think is a great call from a game design point of view.
Also the more units you are taking to take advantage of the CT, presumably without trandports, the less likely you are to get first turn, which is interesting.
Looking at the Index you're right, everyone has a Master, any fluff reason why you shouldn't? I'm sure you'll get cool stuff in the new Codex, For Dorn!
Edit: wow i really did read that wrong :X
the only people that get a Chapter masters (diffrence of rerolling 1s and rerolling all to hits) is Smurfs, Black templar, Crimson fists, White scars, and raven guard. Imperial fists gets lysander the captain, and sally gets vulken a captain. Iron hands get shafted.
Um White Scars? Did Khan get a promotion with Shrike?
Yesterday I played my first game using a squad of intercessors. I was quite impressed by them. For a 100 point troop unit, they were able to do a lot.
The thing is that, while they are vulnerable to stuff that does multiple damage, people will tend to have to fire that at bigger targets. Getting rid of intercessors with small-arms fire is really quite difficult, especially if they’re in cover.
Meanwhile, they have pretty decent firepower in reply. The -1 ap feels very good when fighting other people’s troops. And they are actually better in cc than I expected, because they now hit everything on a 3+.
I’m not saying that they’re out of this world amazing, but they are a solid troop choice – clearly the best one available to codex marines, in my opinion.
The other unit that’s performing consistently very well is my contemptor. It makes a huge difference that it moves 9” and hits on a 2+. And its base strength of 7 means it tends to wound most enemy dreadnoughts on a 2+ as well. That’s a huge improvement over a standard dread that hits and wounds on a 3+, and only moves 6”. That said, the kheres assault cannon hasn’t really done anything so far – which his just all the more reason to get stuck into cc!
I also ran a primaris captain and librarian. The captain did kind of what you'd expect - chopping things up and handing out a useful buff when I remembered it. The librarian didn't achieve a lot. He was shut down quite often by Eldar psykers and the powers he had didn't really seem all that great. He got to cut up some guardians with his sword, but I felt like a lieutenant might have achieved more.
Looking at the Index you're right, everyone has a Master, any fluff reason why you shouldn't? I'm sure you'll get cool stuff in the new Codex, For Dorn!
Edit: wow i really did read that wrong :X
the only people that get a Chapter masters (diffrence of rerolling 1s and rerolling all to hits) is Smurfs, Black templar, Crimson fists, White scars, and raven guard. Imperial fists gets lysander the captain, and sally gets vulken a captain. Iron hands get shafted.
Um White Scars? Did Khan get a promotion with Shrike?
The Chapter Masters in Index 1 are :
Marneus Calgar, Ultras
Pedro Kantor, Crimson Fists
Helbrecht, Black Templars
Kayvaan Shrike, Raven Guard
Gabriel Seth, Flesh Tearers
Dante, Blood Angels
Azeal, Dark Angels
Logan Grimnar, Wolves
Draigo, Grey Knights
No Chapter Master for the 1st Founding Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Iron Hands or White Scars.
People often confuse Ko'sarro Khan, Captain Lysander, and Vulkan He'stan for being the Chapter Masters of their respective Chapters, but they are just Captains, or in Vulkan's case, just a very important individual within the Salamanders.
Looking at the Index you're right, everyone has a Master, any fluff reason why you shouldn't? I'm sure you'll get cool stuff in the new Codex, For Dorn!
Edit: wow i really did read that wrong :X
the only people that get a Chapter masters (diffrence of rerolling 1s and rerolling all to hits) is Smurfs, Black templar, Crimson fists, White scars, and raven guard. Imperial fists gets lysander the captain, and sally gets vulken a captain. Iron hands get shafted.
Here mate, found Tactics leaked on my gaming group on FB, can't confirm:
Ultras: +1Ld, can fall back and still shoot at -1 to hit
RG: -1 to hit them at 12" or more away
WS: Can fall back and charge
IF: All shooting is ignore cover. Rerolling to wound against keyword Buildings
IH: ignore wounds on a roll of a 6
BT: rerolling failed charges
SAL: every unit can reroll one failed hit AND wound dice every time it shoots or fights
Here mate, found Tactics leaked on my gaming group on FB, can't confirm:
Ultras: +1Ld, can fall back and still shoot at -1 to hit
RG: -1 to hit them at 12" or more away
WS: Can fall back and charge
IF: All shooting is ignore cover. Rerolling to wound against keyword Buildings
IH: ignore wounds on a roll of a 6
BT: rerolling failed charges
SAL: every unit can reroll one failed hit AND wound dice every time it shoots or fights
Was on them all morning
IF...... eh its practical. not very flashy. and while fluffy building destruction is kinda pointless as no one plays them :/
wtwlf123 wrote: I think adding Ignores Cover to all IF shooting is pretty boss.
Do we know for sure if it applies to all <CHAPTER> models or only to Infantry, Bikers and Drednoughts?
its been asked on their Facebook page to confirm that the already powerful CT only effect Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, Thats seems to be the case from the Ultramarines Focus but be good to be certain.
wtwlf123 wrote: Damn. I really want the Imperial Fists chapter tactics to apply to my Thunderfire Cannons.
Well it should apply to the gunner. It would be very unlike GW to give us any clarity on whether it applies to the gun he's firing. I guess we'll know that we need a FAQ soon
I'm reasonably pleased with the IF CT. I think it makes things like bolt rifles and heavy bolters into pretty effective options. Dreadnoughts with assault cannons, anvillus arrays and the like will also benefit quite a bit. It works more or less regardless of who you play against, or what you use - as long as you're shooting people and not fighting in CC.
I'm the only person I know who uses buildings. They are a good place to put centurions, and characters too if you want to reduce the number of drops you're using.
It will apply to the Gunner. But that doesn't extend to the Cannon. The same way that the Thunderfire Cannon fires at a 3+ despite the Gunner having a 2+ BS.
Ignore cover is going to be pretty great. No more getting bogged down by terrain for me. I have never seen anyone use a building yet, either in battle reports or in person. That portion is quite worthless. I would have preferred something that allowed us to take down big stuff better. I guess I will have to wait for Strategems. I reconfigured my list to get me an extra command point. My newly added Intercessors and Hellblasters are going to be great additions to my Sternguard with blowing up stuff all the way across the board.
Mediocre as always offensively, deepstriking with flamers is no longer a thing either.
You could use them as a quick reaction force to jump in and hold up units charging a gunline, but you could spend 2 points more and get either a jump pack Vanguard Veteran or a Reiver, both of whom would do a much better job
They can deepstrike with 2 meltas or 2 plasma [EDIT: No they can't], but as stated, VV get +1A, +1LD, and better weapon options for 2 more points a head.
Ok but are they not-bad enough that using them isn't detrimental? I've got a box of them and would rather see them get some use than not. Would probably do the triple plasma pistol load-out.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok but are they not-bad enough that using them isn't detrimental? I've got a box of them and would rather see them get some use than not. Would probably do the triple plasma pistol load-out.
Every tool has its use, some tools are just better at their job than others. Assault marines are probably better at delivering some special weapons where you need them, when you need them. In this capacity, they're not bad at all. Just seems contrary to what you would think they're for. [Edit: They can't take Melta/Plasma, so they're really not useful for much]
They can deepstrike with 2 meltas or 2 plasma, but as stated, VV get +1A, +1LD, and better weapon options for 2 more points a head.
They can only take more than flamers and plasma pistols if you're a blood angel
Nah, the FAQ gave all SM [Edit: Nope, you're right, just BA] AM access to meltas and plasma.
Page 89 – Wargear
Add the following before the final paragraph:
‘Models in Assault Squads that have the option for a
flamer may take a meltagun or plasma gun instead
(replacing their bolt pistol and chainsword).’
They can deepstrike with 2 meltas or 2 plasma, but as stated, VV get +1A, +1LD, and better weapon options for 2 more points a head.
They can only take more than flamers and plasma pistols if you're a blood angel
Nah, the FAQ gave all SMAM access to meltas and plasma.
Page 89 – Wargear
Add the following before the final paragraph:
‘Models in Assault Squads that have the option for a
flamer may take a meltagun or plasma gun instead
(replacing their bolt pistol and chainsword).’
Page 89 is the blood angels wargear section, it is NOT for all SM chapters
They can deepstrike with 2 meltas or 2 plasma, but as stated, VV get +1A, +1LD, and better weapon options for 2 more points a head.
They can only take more than flamers and plasma pistols if you're a blood angel
Nah, the FAQ gave all SMAM access to meltas and plasma.
Page 89 – Wargear
Add the following before the final paragraph:
‘Models in Assault Squads that have the option for a
flamer may take a meltagun or plasma gun instead
(replacing their bolt pistol and chainsword).’
Page 89 is the blood angels wargear section, it is NOT for all SM chapters
Well feth me, I'm dumb. Thanks.
[Edit] That being clarified, no, I don't think there's any real use for assault marines.
They can take 3 Plasma pistols though. Taking 5 man squads can be good for dropping onto an objective. They also can absorb a charge for your more elite or expensive combat units like Terminators and Characters.
It's true that a 5++ for a model with a 3+ save is worth very little. It's only relevant against attacks with at least -3AP, and even then it only saves you 1/3 of the time.
The value of invulnerable saves is not at all constant. The nearer it is to your base save, the more often it will make a difference. Invulnerables on multi-wound models like tanks and dreadnoughts are worth a lot more than they are on infantry, because people will tend to fire guns like meltas and lascannons at them, and these guns tend to have a good AP.
So for example buying a 4++ for a Tau stormsurge is great, because it only has a 3+ save normally and will have big guns shot at it a lot. But a terminator's 5++ isn't that useful because its 2+ armour save will tend to give it at least a 5+ save even if it gets hit by pretty heavy weapons.
A 5++ on an assault sergeant is of very little value. You don't really want him tanking for his squad, so it's likely that you won't assign wounds to him until everyone else is dead. Most of the time you'll fail the 5++ and he'll die anyway. I'd only include it if I found myself with nothing else to spend the points on.
Is it just me or is the Raven Guard's stealth very good? Nid's can pull the same trick with a malanthrope, and he is mostly 90 points to do that one thing in a bubble.
I think Imperial fists will be very good IF they flesh out the cover rules or make it slightly easier to get (like giving it back for having intervening models). However right now, outside of a few bubble aura buffs, cover is just not that common for a unit to have.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok but are they not-bad enough that using them isn't detrimental? I've got a box of them and would rather see them get some use than not. Would probably do the triple plasma pistol load-out.
Honestly I see them as potential meat shields with Scouts.
I'm looking at being super aggressive with Black Templars or Minotaurs w/ Asterion. A minimum 5 man squad will Deep Strike in and have a 48% chance to make a charge with that reroll. That can enable catching larger threats so that everyone else is safe.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok but are they not-bad enough that using them isn't detrimental? I've got a box of them and would rather see them get some use than not. Would probably do the triple plasma pistol load-out.
Just use them as Vanguard Vets with whatever weapon options you have available, at 2 pts per model that extra attack makes them actually worth taking with just bolt pistol and chainsword. Great unit for anti horde and can tie up shooting units.
Alright so this is my second iteration of a Minotaurs list. Let's see what it is! It is made up of 2 separate Vanguard Detachments, and clocks in at 1998 points with a paltry 2 Command Points.
Fast Attack:
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Heavy Bolter
So the basic plan is to camp the Sentry Guns in cover with the Techmarine being near the largest grouping of them, if there is one. Contemptors will deploy as close as they can, and the Scouts will screen them. Then Asterion and his cronies will plop down, and with enough rerolls I can expect 2 or 3 squads to get a guaranteed charge from the drop.
I'm nervous, however, I don't have enough stuff for bigger units. I definitely loaded up on the Heavy Bolters as you could tell, but will the Assault Terminators and Vanguard be enough for bigger bads? If you're also wondering about the Tartaros Terminators being equipped with Claws, it is for three reasons:
1. The extra inch of movement gets them closer to hordes, plus;
2. They aren't as survivable as the TH variant, so I might as well go for shredding potential.
3. I was already in the process of building them that way.
Of course the codex is dropping this week (or next week?) so I don't know how Chapter Tactics will affect us.
Leth wrote: I think Imperial fists will be very good IF they flesh out the cover rules or make it slightly easier to get (like giving it back for having intervening models). However right now, outside of a few bubble aura buffs, cover is just not that common for a unit to have.
Until there are hardcoded rules in regard to the amount of cover that needs to be on the battlefield, there is nothing that will make their tactics anything but situational. And their bonus against buildings is less than worthless. No one takes buildings. Like at all. I have watched dozens of battle reports and watched/played in dozens of games, and never once has someone taken a building.
Leth wrote: I think Imperial fists will be very good IF they flesh out the cover rules or make it slightly easier to get (like giving it back for having intervening models). However right now, outside of a few bubble aura buffs, cover is just not that common for a unit to have.
Until there are hardcoded rules in regard to the amount of cover that needs to be on the battlefield, there is nothing that will make their tactics anything but situational. And their bonus against buildings is less than worthless. No one takes buildings. Like at all. I have watched dozens of battle reports and watched/played in dozens of games, and never once has someone taken a building.
Yeah, and if an enemy army was going to use cover and were facing IFs, they just wouldn't worry about it anymore and stand wherever they wanted. That is still better than nothing, but it's not amazing. Add to that that it doesn't effect tanks (the typical SM source of anti infantry--who are the main units that get cover) and it gets even worse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It does counter the space wolf cover power though, so that's something lol.
Leth wrote: I think Imperial fists will be very good IF they flesh out the cover rules or make it slightly easier to get (like giving it back for having intervening models). However right now, outside of a few bubble aura buffs, cover is just not that common for a unit to have.
Until there are hardcoded rules in regard to the amount of cover that needs to be on the battlefield, there is nothing that will make their tactics anything but situational. And their bonus against buildings is less than worthless. No one takes buildings. Like at all. I have watched dozens of battle reports and watched/played in dozens of games, and never once has someone taken a building.
Im seriously questioning my decision to paint my Priamris Crimson Fists.
It was a tossup between them and the Raven Guard, and I went the former because Im better at painting blue.
I have a horrible feeling that Im going to have to learn how to paint black. I really rate those RG tactics, and have a total soft spot for Beakies (looking at you Forge World).
Those Mor Dethyn RG sniper minis (counts as: Scouts) camped 30" away sniping characters, while in cover and getting -1 to be hit... Rifle dreads plinking at long range luring units forward to get within 12" (and then exposing rear units to DS vangaurd assault troops)...
The Crimson Fist Relic and Warlord trait better be worth it seeing as we dont get any unique Strategems.
Leth wrote: I think Imperial fists will be very good IF they flesh out the cover rules or make it slightly easier to get (like giving it back for having intervening models). However right now, outside of a few bubble aura buffs, cover is just not that common for a unit to have.
Until there are hardcoded rules in regard to the amount of cover that needs to be on the battlefield, there is nothing that will make their tactics anything but situational. And their bonus against buildings is less than worthless. No one takes buildings. Like at all. I have watched dozens of battle reports and watched/played in dozens of games, and never once has someone taken a building.
Im seriously questioning my decision to paint my Priamris Crimson Fists.
It was a tossup between them and the Raven Guard, and I went the former because Im better at painting blue.
I have a horrible feeling that Im going to have to learn how to paint black. I really rate those RG tactics, and have a total soft spot for Beakies (looking at you Forge World).
Those Mor Dethyn RG sniper minis (counts as: Scouts) camped 30" away sniping characters, while in cover and getting -1 to be hit... Rifle dreads plinking at long range luring units forward to get within 12" (and then exposing rear units to DS vangaurd assault troops)...
The Crimson Fist Relic and Warlord trait better be worth it seeing as we dont get any unique Strategems.
The grass is always greener somewhere, do you play the game to have fun or band wagon to win at all cost? If you don't like the RG tactics why bother going down that road. Not to mention, no one has the Codex yet and allot can change once everything is revealed.
Gibs55 wrote: The grass is always greener somewhere, do you play the game to have fun or band wagon to win at all cost?
Bit of both. A competitive game, in good spirits, hopefully with a win (but that's secondary to a good game).
If you don't like the RG tactics why bother going down that road. Not to mention, no one has the Codex yet and allot can change once everything is revealed.
I do like RG tactics. A lot. It encourages gameplay due to a combination of long range shooting gettin -1 to be hit in return (luring your enemies closer) and then DSing some assault guys in to their rear echelon after they get sucked up the board.
You can keep opponents guessing: You might come to the table with a pretty nasty long range gun-line (that is -1 to hit), or you can (using the Chapter strategem) deep strike a lot of units nice and close for an alpha strike, or you could do a bit of both (long range gun line to draw him into 12" range to avoid the -1) followed by being flanked by a deep striking unit and a surprise assault.
All the IF CT does is make cover irrelevant. Doesnt really encourage any particular tactics or gameplay.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: We still need to see the Imperial Fists Strategems too, though.
Probably going to be something stupid like reroll to hit against buikdings. I don't have high hopes. GW thought the Buildings bonus was worth putting on paper, so...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: We still need to see the Imperial Fists Strategems too, though.
Crimson fists cant use them.
We get our own Warlord trait (Pedro Kantor awaits with baited breath) and our own unique Relic (The Oath of Rynn?).
Unlike the other chapters, we dont get any unique strategems.
We don't know that at all. We know that CF get a unique Relic and Warlord Trait instead of the Imperial Fists relic and trait. There has been nothing that says they don't get the IF Strategems.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: We still need to see the Imperial Fists Strategems too, though.
Crimson fists cant use them.
We get our own Warlord trait (Pedro Kantor awaits with baited breath) and our own unique Relic (The Oath of Rynn?).
Unlike the other chapters, we dont get any unique strategems.
We don't know that at all. We know that CF get a unique Relic and Warlord Trait instead of the Imperial Fists relic and trait. There has been nothing that says they don't get the IF Strategems.
Why would they?
That means our brother chapter (also 2nd founding, also IF successor) the Black Templars get access to their own, and that of the IF's.
Each chapter gets a unique strategem (all the 1st founding chapters plus Black Templars).
All those chapters also get unique warlord traits and relics (including the CF).
Maybe Crimson Fists can use IF Strategems. But I doubt it.
It looks like we just get the Relic, Warlord trait, and possibly IF Chapter tactics, and generic strategems.
A 1st founding chapter gets the Relic, Strategem, Chapter tactics, Warlord trait AND (almost certainly) a Primarch and a shiny new specialised codex down the line.
Re-rolling charge ranges is okay, as far as CT's go, but is there even a point? I mean, getting into combat is nice but what do marines have that can pack a punch in melee?
Like, if you're going up against another dedicated assault army like Khorne or Orks, are Crusader squads really going to cut it?
BlaxicanX wrote: Re-rolling charge ranges is okay, as far as CT's go, but is there even a point? I mean, getting into combat is nice but what do marines have that can pack a punch in melee?
Like, if you're going up against another dedicated assault army like Khorne or Orks, are Crusader squads really going to cut it?
Crusaders squads on their own won't, crusader squads backed by excellent BT's character buffs will
BlaxicanX wrote: Re-rolling charge ranges is okay, as far as CT's go, but is there even a point? I mean, getting into combat is nice but what do marines have that can pack a punch in melee?
Like, if you're going up against another dedicated assault army like Khorne or Orks, are Crusader squads really going to cut it?
Strategems might make the reroll even better. What if BT have a Strategem that allows them to pile in twice like a Khorne Berserker? Lots of things could make it worth it.
10 Man Sternguard Squad. All Special Issue Boltguns. Comes in at 190 pts. Park them within 15" of something you want dead. Use Bolter Drill (1CP) and Masterful Marksmanship (1CP) on the Sternguard Squad. Drink your opponent's tears.
casvalremdeikun wrote: 10 Man Sternguard Squad. All Special Issue Boltguns. Comes in at 190 pts. Park them within 15" of something you want dead. Use Bolter Drill (1CP) and Masterful Marksmanship (1CP) on the Sternguard Squad. Drink your opponent's tears.
Yes. And with a Chapter Master within 6" of 'em too. Reroll failed rolls to hit. +1 on rolls to wound. Fire twice. Profit.
casvalremdeikun wrote: 10 Man Sternguard Squad. All Special Issue Boltguns. Comes in at 190 pts. Park them within 15" of something you want dead. Use Bolter Drill (1CP) and Masterful Marksmanship (1CP) on the Sternguard Squad. Drink your opponent's tears.
Yes. And with a Chapter Master within 6" of 'em too. Reroll failed rolls to hit. +1 on rolls to wound. Fire twice. Profit.
Lias Issodon approves greatly. Well, of those strategems... unless they are IF exclusive.
casvalremdeikun wrote: 10 Man Sternguard Squad. All Special Issue Boltguns. Comes in at 190 pts. Park them within 15" of something you want dead. Use Bolter Drill (1CP) and Masterful Marksmanship (1CP) on the Sternguard Squad. Drink your opponent's tears.
Yes. And with a Chapter Master within 6" of 'em too. Reroll failed rolls to hit. +1 on rolls to wound. Fire twice. Profit.
Lias Issodon approves greatly. Well, of those strategems... unless they are IF exclusive.
Bolter Drill is exclusive, Masterful Marksmanship is not. Lias can Infiltrate them though, which is nuts. I think Pedro Kantor running with my Sternguard just became mandatory.
pretre wrote: Can't you just make Lias as a IF successor?
Depends on what Forgeworld decides to do with Tactics. There is about a 0% chance that they won't end up with either Raven Guard tactics or their own Tactics. Both scenarios prevent taking Bolter Drill.
pretre wrote: Can't you just make Lias as a IF successor?
Depends on what Forgeworld decides to do with Tactics. There is about a 0% chance that they won't end up with either Raven Guard tactics or their own Tactics. Both scenarios prevent taking Bolter Drill.
RG would help if the list wanted to focus on using the Special Ammo. But Combi-Plasma seems better... so it doesn't help in that regard as you will be too close. Huh. I guess it helps for stuff not infiltrating in with Lias.
I know i talk about the venerable chaplain dreadnought practically every other post right now BUTTTTT as far as i have seen from reading other people codex reviews there's nothing stopping it from taking he a relic Armour of Antilochus giving it a 2+ and situational 3++
You could also give it the Salamanders mantle if you fancy going green and get the same toughness as a land raider
Or if you really hate having friends then use a little bit of command point goodness and grab both... and a warlord trait
pretre wrote: Until FW delivers chapter tactics, Raptors can be IH successors.
Raptors are not an IH successor chapter. They are a Raven Guard successor. That is an established fact, and trying to do otherwise is ridiculous. GW has responded to comments and states you use their parent chapters, which all previous editions show Raptors as RG.
if you picture your favourite Successors fighting differently, you’re welcome to use whichever Chapter Tactic suits. You could just as well play on the rumoured links between the Black Dragons and the Salamanders, or play up the shadowy nature of the Exorcists and give them the stealthy tactics of the Raven Guard. It’s up to you!
The same for the 
, +1W and the option to take a stormbolter and 
