casvalremdeikun wrote: 10 Man Sternguard Squad. All Special Issue Boltguns. Comes in at 190 pts. Park them within 15" of something you want dead. Use Bolter Drill (1CP) and Masterful Marksmanship (1CP) on the Sternguard Squad. Drink your opponent's tears.
How about storm bolters? Need to be within 12" but doubles the volume of fire in exchange for losing the -2 AP. ~80 bolter shots should wipe out almost everything that walks, crawls or slithers on its belly and it should even get you roughly halfway through a Leman Russ is you really need to.
So objective secured existing again seems pretty huge. An enemy HAS to wipe out everything you have on an objective- so no crowding out your tacticals with conscripts, for example.
And some of these strategems are pretty brutal. Also, the first relic you take is always FREE. You can spend CP's to purchase one additional relic.
casvalremdeikun wrote: 10 Man Sternguard Squad. All Special Issue Boltguns. Comes in at 190 pts. Park them within 15" of something you want dead. Use Bolter Drill (1CP) and Masterful Marksmanship (1CP) on the Sternguard Squad. Drink your opponent's tears.
How about storm bolters? Need to be within 12" but doubles the volume of fire in exchange for losing the -2 AP. ~80 bolter shots should wipe out almost everything that walks, crawls or slithers on its belly and it should even get you roughly halfway through a Leman Russ is you really need to.
The Masterful Marksmanship Strategem requires Special Issue Boltguns, so Storm Bolters are not an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: So objective secured existing again seems pretty huge. An enemy HAS to wipe out everything you have on an objective- so no crowding out your tacticals with conscripts, for example.
And some of these strategems are pretty brutal. Also, the first relic you take is always FREE. You can spend CP's to purchase one additional relic.
Relic is free? SWEET. I need to find a place for a Power Fist dude in my army.
If you combine the Salamanders Mantle with the Iron Resolve WT, the Shield Eternal and a bike, you have a dude that's T6, 2+3++6+++, has like 7 wounds and automatically halves damage taken from multi-damage weapons.
BlaxicanX wrote: If you combine the Salamanders Mantle with the Iron Resolve WT, the Shield Eternal and a bike, you have a dude that's T6, 2+3++6+++, has like 7 wounds and automatically halves damage taken from multi-damage weapons.
.
So...crisis averted? It still grinds my gears that I can't give Pedro Kantor the Fist of Vengeance. Still, I will need to find room in my list for a Power Fist.
Edit: Clarification.
You can take one relic for free, or two relics for one CP, or three relics for three CP.
All relics are free as in they cost no points (unless you replace them with a piece of wargear that you have to pay for first, i.e. you need to pay for a Stormshield if you want the Shield Eternal).
I foresee that the Shield Eternal will be common in this edition as well, especially i combination with a Bike for +1W and +1T, and the Warlord Trait that gives +1W and a 6+ FNP.
Hey guys, sorry to interject but how good are reivers?, I don't have the rules for them but the models look cool and wanted to know how to or whether to use them in my actual army and not just have them for show.
Thanks
john27 wrote: Hey guys, sorry to interject but how good are reivers?, I don't have the rules for them but the models look cool and wanted to know how to or whether to use them in my actual army and not just have them for show.
Thanks
Well they have Infiltrate and can take basically an Assault 2 Bolter I think it is or a CCW. I like them but they definitely require some playtesting.
john27 wrote: So get them in close, aiming to make low morale units run, and take out unprotected heavy support squads?
Also work them with another melee unit, to deal with tough opponents easily. Getting rid of overwatch and reducing to hit rolls means you can take a lot less damage rushing in a more expensive melee unit alongside them
They seem okay to me. The grenades are good but you have to get within 4" to use them, which seems situational outside of the RG stratagem.
Their mobility is still an issue as well, since they have to either deepstrike in and hope to make a charge (black templar ones might be better than most here), footslog, or ride in the hover tank. None of these seem like wonderful options to me.
john27 wrote: Hey guys, sorry to interject but how good are reivers?, I don't have the rules for them but the models look cool and wanted to know how to or whether to use them in my actual army and not just have them for show.
Thanks
They are very good with ccw/pistol, I'd even say they're slightly underpriced.
Compared to a Vanguard (without Jump Pack), they get +1 A, AP1 and +1W for 2 points, as well as a very nifty stungrenade.
They can also choose between Deepstrike or Outflank + free vertical movement for +2 ppm.
Their drawback (and possibly their redeeming quality which prevents them from being considering op) is that while they are very good at killing hordes with their many S4 AP1 attacks, they have no other weapon options except for their boltgun or pistol+ccw. No special weapons and no special close combat weapons.
Hmm so more and more the "Codex blessed" and everyone else.
by free it means without command points spent, I suspect we'll have to buy them with points anyway
Nope. The only points cost the Relics have is whatever piece of wargear (if any) they're replacing. So like the Burning Blade has to replace a Power Sword, so you have to pay the points for the Power Sword, but the upgrade to the relic is free. But something like the Armor Indomitus or the ultramarines 3++/deny the witch Iron Halo upgrade is free.
The first relic costs 0 Command points. But there's a stratagem that is 1CP for an extra relic or 3CP for 2 extra relics (but the relics have to go on different characters, since no character can have more than one relic).
jcd386 wrote: They seem okay to me. The grenades are good but you have to get within 4" to use them, which seems situational outside of the RG stratagem.
What should be done with this? I thinking of running him alongside Pedro Kantor and his Goon Squad. As a Character, I can give a Power Fist that will become the Fist of Vengeance. It doesn't look like there is a way to get him an Invulnerable save, but he has a good number of wounds and the Honour Guard and Apothecary should be able to help. The reroll wounds ability will make him good to have near my Special Issue Boltgun Sternguard Squad for their Bolter Drill/Masterful Marksmanship Alpha Strike.
Yeah he is basically a WGBL from space wolves. If you have to pick you want this guy near your high rate of fire low Str weapons and a captain near your lower rate of fire high str weapons.
I've been taking at least two captains in a lot of my SM lists and I'll probably start taking one of the lts now as well.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah he is basically a WGBL from space wolves. If you have to pick you want this guy near your high rate of fire low Str weapons and a captain near your lower rate of fire high str weapons.
I've been taking at least two captains in a lot of my SM lists and I'll probably start taking one of the lts now as well.
He will be situated between a 10 man Special Issue Boltgun Sternguard Squad and Pedro with a squad of close combat guys. Probably Honour Guard and a Company Ancient.
I didn't really see the parallel between the Lieutenant and the WGPL. He has fewer choices, but someone said in the Reddit thread that the LT only runs 46 pts vs. 60 pts for the WGBL.
jcd386 wrote: I meant the ability to reroll 1s to wound as the similarity.
Yeah...the Primaris Lieutenant has had it just as long. It was never something special for WGBL.
Edit: In other news, my Rhino Primaris is going to use Targeting Data Skull and make for even more hits with Bolter Drill. Since the additional hits occur on a 6+, not a flat 6, rolls of 5 or 6 will add additional rolls. I can't wait.
Yeah but having to take a lt that can't get into a transport is annoying as he counts as his own 'drop' in deployment, can't keep up with a lot of units. Plus I was not looking forward to having 1 Primaris marine in my list just to get rerolls to wound.
All in all I'm just happy that small SM have their own version too as I see it as an important reroll bubble to have in a strong list and the flexibility of a jump pack or going in a normal transport is a big feature. Also him being a cheap HQ choice is pretty great too.
I watched a review video of the codex and it showed that the Lieutenants are 60 pts a piece. In my case, adding in a Power Fist and a Master-crafter Bolt Rifle brings his price up to 83 pts. Not bad at all. I am glad they didn't make them cheaper than a WGBL. Though it does suck that they can't take a Storm Shield.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, now that Inceptors are 15 pts less per model, are they actually viable now? 180 pts doesn't look all that bad, assuming that the Assault Bolters didn't go down in price. I dunno, I want to know what those plasma exterminators cost before I decide.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The Masterful Marksmanship Strategem requires Special Issue Boltguns, so Storm Bolters are not an option.
Ah, that makes sense. I thought there was a stratagem to let a bolter unit fire twice, that would have been spectacular on storm bolter-armed sternguard! Alas, one can only dream...
Masterful Marksmanship aside, 40 bolter shots ignoring cover (IF chapter tactic) and adding another hit for every 6+ rolled (Bolter Drill stratagem) is going to hurt something fierce. Stick them in a drop pod for about 280 points total. Get a captain and/or lieutenant nearby for even more delight.
So how are people feeling about the new options for Primaris units in the codex?
Aggressors, with either weapon these guys murder hordes. That's pretty much it.
Plasma Inceptors. I'm not so sure about these guys. They're very expensive, and with the number or shots they have, the will surely fry themselves if they overcharge (even the captain is not a good guarantee that they won't.) Sure, you don't have to overcharge, but still...
Reivers, grapple or grav? Melee or shooty? (I think melee is better, the gun is mediocre at best.) And which weapon best goes with which deployment method?
Intercessors get new guns too. Stalker might be decent for backfield objective campers. Auto bolt is just trash, I don't understand why anyone would ever take it over either of the other options (It might be OK for Reivers, as they cannot get better gun*)
And how about the Repulsor? For a transport, it is really expensive, so it has to carry a high value unit. Aggressors would be an obvious choice. Any other candidates?
*Auto bolt rifle and bolt carbine have the same profile, so they're basically the same weapon. This is weird as they look nothing alike.
I'm worried that those plasma inceptors will be killed by themselves more often than by the opponent. A way to reroll the inevitable 1's is almost mandatory for them, but I don't see any convenient way of providing that to inceptors.
sossen wrote: I'm worried that those plasma inceptors will be killed by themselves more often than by the opponent. A way to reroll the inevitable 1's is almost mandatory for them, but I don't see any convenient way of providing that to inceptors.
They just won't overcharge if they aren't near a character.
sossen wrote: I'm worried that those plasma inceptors will be killed by themselves more often than by the opponent. A way to reroll the inevitable 1's is almost mandatory for them, but I don't see any convenient way of providing that to inceptors.
They just won't overcharge if they aren't near a character.
Sure. But in that case it might be better to just take the assault bolter guys, as the plasma is apparently way more expensive (I'd like to know how much more expensive to assess this properly.)
sossen wrote: I'm worried that those plasma inceptors will be killed by themselves more often than by the opponent. A way to reroll the inevitable 1's is almost mandatory for them, but I don't see any convenient way of providing that to inceptors.
Captain with a jump pack.
Personally though i don't think it's going to be worth it given d3 shots guns generally are overpriced and i would expect these too aswell
How are you guys thinking of running your Aggressors? I have to admit I was hoping for some heavy weapons however it looks like they are the anti-horde infantry solution.
I think I like them with Flame Fists inside the new Primaris Transport. Running them as either Salamanders for the flame shenanigans or Ultra Marines so they can fall back and unleash flaming hell as the -1 to hit means nothing.
Didn't catch the points cost in the review so not sure how viable they are points wise?
Aggressors are 43 points each, for either load-out, which seems pretty reasonable to me.
They do put out a lot of bolter fire, but i don't see them getting to double shoot that often since they either need to move into range, or get out of a transport. Of course you can also let the enemy get into range, but I can't imagine them not being a prime target if they are out in the open and a lot of common weapons 1 shot them. That being said they are probably the best thing to put into their transport, with hellblasters being the other contender.
The main other way i would see using them is with the raven-guard stratagem, getting them close enough to put some hurt on the enemy before dying, ideally with as much other alpha strike units as possible.
If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:
Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?
Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.
Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.
Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...
Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.
bort wrote: If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:
Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?
Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.
Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.
Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...
Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.
One reason for me is that they lost Drop Pod delivery. [Edit:Grav Centurions specifically] They can be dropped from a Storm Raven, but at quite an investment. I'm no a fan of footslogging anything, especially in my mostly Biker SM army. When the new Dex hits I'll try to fit them back in somehow.
bort wrote: If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:
Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?
Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.
Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.
Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...
Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.
One reason for me is that they lost Drop Pod delivery. [Edit:Grav Centurions specifically] They can be dropped from a Storm Raven, but at quite an investment. I'm no a fan of footslogging anything, especially in my mostly Biker SM army. When the new Dex hits I'll try to fit them back in somehow.
I've used a squad of regular Devastators with grav cannons in a pod to good effect. They have more firepower than the centurions and they're a lot cheaper. They are less survivable of course, but it's really the alpha strike you're after here (with a signum and a cherub used on the same Deastator to get 8 shots at +1 to hit, along with 12 at regular BS -1 for moving).
BlaxicanX wrote: If you combine the Salamanders Mantle with the Iron Resolve WT, the Shield Eternal and a bike, you have a dude that's T6, 2+3++6+++, has like 7 wounds and automatically halves damage taken from multi-damage weapons.
Could someone confirm how many relics can be put on a single character please? I thought it was still capped at 1?
On another note - Lascannon+autocannon ven dread or 4 lascannon dev squad? Not sure on the current costs of a 4 lascannon FW dread, so, feel free to compare that too if you know the points!
bort wrote: If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:
Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?
Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.
Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.
Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...
Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.
One reason for me is that they lost Drop Pod delivery. [Edit:Grav Centurions specifically] They can be dropped from a Storm Raven, but at quite an investment. I'm no a fan of footslogging anything, especially in my mostly Biker SM army. When the new Dex hits I'll try to fit them back in somehow.
I've used a squad of regular Devastators with grav cannons in a pod to good effect. They have more firepower than the centurions and they're a lot cheaper. They are less survivable of course, but it's really the alpha strike you're after here (with a signum and a cherub used on the same Deastator to get 8 shots at +1 to hit, along with 12 at regular BS -1 for moving).
I have been running tac squads with a grav cannon and combi plasma to pretty good effect in my ultramarine lists. Even with the 4+ to hit when they move or disembark, i find the 4 shots to be worth it, and having a re-roll character also helps a ton.
BlaxicanX wrote: If you combine the Salamanders Mantle with the Iron Resolve WT, the Shield Eternal and a bike, you have a dude that's T6, 2+3++6+++, has like 7 wounds and automatically halves damage taken from multi-damage weapons.
Could someone confirm how many relics can be put on a single character please? I thought it was still capped at 1?
On another note - Lascannon+autocannon ven dread or 4 lascannon dev squad? Not sure on the current costs of a 4 lascannon FW dread, so, feel free to compare that too if you know the points!
It's 1 relic/character. Says so in the rules for the stratagem that lets you take extra relics.
A mortis dread costs 5 points more than a normal dread, before weapons. It's the cheapest quad lascannon vehicle I think, but quite a lot softer than a predator. Doesn't degrade though.
It could well be that the repulsor becomes the best lascannon mount. It's very tough, mobile and has potms. It transports people, so it does two jobs. Not sure until we see its cost.
I find the primaris release kind of frustrating in a way. It’s pretty limited. There’s no flyer and various other things seem to be missing, like bikes, jump packs and so on. Weapon options are bizarrely limited, so Hellblasters only get plasma guns of various kinds, sergeants can only have very limited options – or very often none at all. Where are the hellblasters with gatling cannons - which would look amazing?
Not letting characters have options is really rubbish. So a primaris captain can only have a normal power sword, so he’s stuck doing only 1 damage per hit with his 4-point weapon. I guess you’d only ever field one with the burning blade. It’s particularly odd that the gravis guy has to pay for a master-crafted sword he’ll rarely use (as he has his fist) while the primaris guy only gets leftovers. Loads of the relics aren't available to primaris guys, simply because they aren't able to take the base weapon that they replace.
All of this makes me feel like this is only half a release. I think GW will give us a bunch more primaris kits before too long. I certainly hope they do.
There’s also this slightly weird thing with chapter tactics, in that they quite often seem to benefit the “wrong” kinds of unit, thereby encouraging you to take units that don’t fit the stereotype for that chapter at all. For example you might expect raven guard to field a lot of sneaky reivers, but why would they? They can infiltrate anything they want, and the reivers are least likely to benefit from enemies getting -1 to hit at over 12” range, because they won’t be far away.
On the other hand, if those raven guard can infiltrate some aggressors, they’ll have a lot of fun. And just spamming a ton of intercessors seems a very solid option if the bad guys can’t shoot them. So a good raven guard army might be a ton of intercessors, with stuff like hellblasters and aggressors infiltrating using CPs.
Similarly, salamanders plasma gunners clearly benefit most from their CT. Aggressors look pretty cool for white scars, advancing and shooting things up, and they’ll enjoy being free to run away from one unit and charge another.
There are some CTs that work pretty much the same for everyone. The IF CT encourages shooting things with bolt rifles a lot, which is appropriate, and the IH one just works for everything. BTs being good at charging actually encourages you to charge stuff, which again makes sense.
Final moan. Why does GW think flamers are so good? An aggressor gets an average of about 6.33 hits at 18”. With flamers he gets averages 7 hits at 8”. I guess you can make the point that it’s very difficult to charge aggressors with flamers (especially if they are somehow stationary), but then they are already nasty in combat. Bolter ones are far more likely to get to stand still and fire twice. Flamer aggressors are pretty decent for ultramarines but otherwise don’t seem too great.
I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.
They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.
jcd386 wrote: I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.
They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.
bort wrote: If I could break from the new codex previews for a moment and ask about grav:
Am I missing something with grav cannons? Why does no one use them anymore?
Obviously range compared to say a lascannon or missile launcher is much worse, but this edition a lot of stuff closes even faster. Plus, since you can move and shoot, they have a worst case range of 30" or 33" getting out of a transport.
Unless I've messed up my math, even with the heavy nerf these still do more wounds than a lascannon on absolutely anything with a 3+ or better save, which on flipping through the indexes is a huge chunk of the possible models you'd ever want to fire a heavy weapon at to begin with, not to mention the 50% percent of players who use marines. The only real exceptions were a handful of Ork and DE vehicles with 4+s. And, if you get stuck having to fire at infantry, the 4 shots pretty much guarantees it better than a lascannon shot.
Given all that, I was rather surprised to see that they have pretty much disappeared from the SM lists in the list forum since 8th ed came out. Now, if someone can convince me why they suck now, I would appreciate it, I only own a few while I own a pile of lascannons and MLs left over from 3rd edition, so you'd save me having to buy more weapons. But, they really seem like they should still be the gun of choice...
Also, to note, I'm specifically talking grav cannons. Dropping grav guns in favor of plasma makes sense to me now that they're no longer 2/3 shots.
One reason for me is that they lost Drop Pod delivery. [Edit:Grav Centurions specifically] They can be dropped from a Storm Raven, but at quite an investment. I'm no a fan of footslogging anything, especially in my mostly Biker SM army. When the new Dex hits I'll try to fit them back in somehow.
I've used a squad of regular Devastators with grav cannons in a pod to good effect. They have more firepower than the centurions and they're a lot cheaper. They are less survivable of course, but it's really the alpha strike you're after here (with a signum and a cherub used on the same Deastator to get 8 shots at +1 to hit, along with 12 at regular BS -1 for moving).
I'm planning on experimenting with this for my DA Greenwing as well, Grav Devs in a Pod to avoid the range issue hoping to put the hurt on something nasty. No idea how it will work.
jcd386 wrote: I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.
They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.
I totally forgot to look into wl traits
what did everyone else get?
Crimson Fists WL trait is basically Rampage except it triggers if he is within 6" of 10 enemy models. So Pedro Kantor does 5+d3 attacks if 10 or more models are near him. Kind of lame, actually. I would have preferred Iron Resolve (+1W and Ignore Wounds on 6).
jcd386 wrote: I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.
They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.
Yeah IF are decent. Ignoring cover while using a weapon with any kind of AP starts to make infantry fall over very often. It works pretty well with just about any unit, though it’s a bit wasted on hellblasters. I’ve got this theory that fortifications might actually be quite good, and if I’m right then rerolling to wound them is no bad thing either.
There’s no way they are as tough as raven guard though. -1 to hit results in a 25-50% reduction in the damage you take at range. It makes people really not want to overcharge plasma, which is otherwise one of the best ways to remove primaris guys. And combined with deep strike, letting you deploy units where they aren’t in too much danger of return fire, it’s even better. The longer range of Primaris weapons also means the raven guard will be that much more likely to be able to deploy in cover and/or on objectives and still be in range to have an impact.
Thinking about new primaris releases, I wonder if they’ll bundle a few of them with the releases of the other marine codexes that are still to come. That’s probably how I’d do it. Or of course they could stick them in the chapter approved.
BlaxicanX wrote: If you combine the Salamanders Mantle with the Iron Resolve WT, the Shield Eternal and a bike, you have a dude that's T6, 2+3++6+++, has like 7 wounds and automatically halves damage taken from multi-damage weapons.
Could someone confirm how many relics can be put on a single character please? I thought it was still capped at 1?
On another note - Lascannon+autocannon ven dread or 4 lascannon dev squad? Not sure on the current costs of a 4 lascannon FW dread, so, feel free to compare that too if you know the points!
It's 1 relic/character. Says so in the rules for the stratagem that lets you take extra relics.
A mortis dread costs 5 points more than a normal dread, before weapons. It's the cheapest quad lascannon vehicle I think, but quite a lot softer than a predator. Doesn't degrade though.
It could well be that the repulsor becomes the best lascannon mount. It's very tough, mobile and has potms. It transports people, so it does two jobs. Not sure until we see its cost.
I find the primaris release kind of frustrating in a way. It’s pretty limited. There’s no flyer and various other things seem to be missing, like bikes, jump packs and so on. Weapon options are bizarrely limited, so Hellblasters only get plasma guns of various kinds, sergeants can only have very limited options – or very often none at all. Where are the hellblasters with gatling cannons - which would look amazing?
Not letting characters have options is really rubbish. So a primaris captain can only have a normal power sword, so he’s stuck doing only 1 damage per hit with his 4-point weapon. I guess you’d only ever field one with the burning blade. It’s particularly odd that the gravis guy has to pay for a master-crafted sword he’ll rarely use (as he has his fist) while the primaris guy only gets leftovers. Loads of the relics aren't available to primaris guys, simply because they aren't able to take the base weapon that they replace.
All of this makes me feel like this is only half a release. I think GW will give us a bunch more primaris kits before too long. I certainly hope they do.
There’s also this slightly weird thing with chapter tactics, in that they quite often seem to benefit the “wrong” kinds of unit, thereby encouraging you to take units that don’t fit the stereotype for that chapter at all. For example you might expect raven guard to field a lot of sneaky reivers, but why would they? They can infiltrate anything they want, and the reivers are least likely to benefit from enemies getting -1 to hit at over 12” range, because they won’t be far away.
On the other hand, if those raven guard can infiltrate some aggressors, they’ll have a lot of fun. And just spamming a ton of intercessors seems a very solid option if the bad guys can’t shoot them. So a good raven guard army might be a ton of intercessors, with stuff like hellblasters and aggressors infiltrating using CPs.
Similarly, salamanders plasma gunners clearly benefit most from their CT. Aggressors look pretty cool for white scars, advancing and shooting things up, and they’ll enjoy being free to run away from one unit and charge another.
There are some CTs that work pretty much the same for everyone. The IF CT encourages shooting things with bolt rifles a lot, which is appropriate, and the IH one just works for everything. BTs being good at charging actually encourages you to charge stuff, which again makes sense.
Final moan. Why does GW think flamers are so good? An aggressor gets an average of about 6.33 hits at 18”. With flamers he gets averages 7 hits at 8”. I guess you can make the point that it’s very difficult to charge aggressors with flamers (especially if they are somehow stationary), but then they are already nasty in combat. Bolter ones are far more likely to get to stand still and fire twice. Flamer aggressors are pretty decent for ultramarines but otherwise don’t seem too great.
Thanks for clarifying that for me!
Starting to think a Deredeo might be worth it with the autocannon rather than the lascannon devs, as it'll only be 30+points more than how i was going to run the dev squad. Feels like the Deredeo's lascannon battery is expensively underwhelming with only 2 shots. Alternatively, the contemptor mortis can run 2 twin las for 30 points less than the deredeo, but then doesn't provide a 5++ bubble or hits supersonic flyers on 2's... Choices! Maybe i should be taking both and only 1 redemptor.... EDIT - wait, the relic contemptor can take the same 2 twin las, for less points than the mortis, whilst also getting more wounds and buffs?????
I'm with you on the Raven Guard tactics and units though. I will be side lining my beakie tact squads for intercessors, but i'll be taking Reivers. Reviers with the stratagem are going to allow a lot of hurt turn 1. Though i also agree, on the aggressors. I'll be showing the Salamanders how a proper chapter flames units to death first turn!
My original ideas for 8th before the codex and leaks came out, was jump packs, stormtalons and scouts/speeders... Since then, the only thing out of those i will probably take is a unit of Inceptors and Shrike, simply for re-rolls and the warlord trait whilst being able to deep-strike and re-roll his charge. I had reserved my dreadnought ideas for Iron Hands!
jcd386 wrote: I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.
They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.
Yeah IF are decent. Ignoring cover while using a weapon with any kind of AP starts to make infantry fall over very often. It works pretty well with just about any unit, though it’s a bit wasted on hellblasters. I’ve got this theory that fortifications might actually be quite good, and if I’m right then rerolling to wound them is no bad thing either.
There’s no way they are as tough as raven guard though. -1 to hit results in a 25-50% reduction in the damage you take at range. It makes people really not want to overcharge plasma, which is otherwise one of the best ways to remove primaris guys. And combined with deep strike, letting you deploy units where they aren’t in too much danger of return fire, it’s even better. The longer range of Primaris weapons also means the raven guard will be that much more likely to be able to deploy in cover and/or on objectives and still be in range to have an impact.
Thinking about new primaris releases, I wonder if they’ll bundle a few of them with the releases of the other marine codexes that are still to come. That’s probably how I’d do it. Or of course they could stick them in the chapter approved.
They are tougher vs heavy bolters, assault cannons, auto cannons, and anything that is -1 armor since they still get a 2+ save. In my experience these are the weapons that kill them most effectively at range.
Those are pretty nice stratagems for the most part, but isn't the largest limiting factor going to be how hard it is for SM armies to fill a force org? Unless they added some marine specific ones in the codex and/or boosted troop options, it's hard for a nonUM marine list to go above 5-7 CPs. Presuming you want to keep ~3 rerolls for seize, game end, or that game changing roll, you don't have much left for the new ones, like RG deployments or crazy WS bike assaults.
I'm always tempted to buy like 300pts worth of AM to fill out an extra Imperium battalion or brigade, which I'm not keen on from a fluff and wallet perspective. Doesn't seem right to replace the supposed backbone of the marine army with IG conscripts. But when it gets me CPs to boost my marines and the objective camping bodies I want...Hmm.
Regarding the IF warlord trait: It's just too specific. It only impacts certain types of weapons, and only when they're in cover, and only if they're within 6" of the warlord. Compared to all the other options you can take in that WT spot, it's just too narrow.
Ignoring cover as part of their chapter tactics is okay, but situational given the limits to cover in 8th edition. All the rest of their rules (relic, stratagem, warlord trait, etc...) are just bad. Imperial Fists got the short end of the stick with the 8th codex in comparison to the other chapters.
jcd386 wrote: I found it pretty easy to get to 8 CP in my SM lists. 7 at the minimum.
At what points list. without using the under strength rule?
I guess you could do it with basically no special or heavy weapons.
I've found i can easily get 7 command points with a battalion and vanguard detachment at 2k points which includes a lot of big units.
I've also managed to get 10 cp using 2 battlions and a vanguard, though the troops in the 2nd battlion were 3 units of min scouts, with a lieutenant and techmarine in the hq slots. In the end i dropped this, as i felt it just wasn't worth it in terms of "on the table pressure".
jcd386 wrote: I found it pretty easy to get to 8 CP in my SM lists. 7 at the minimum.
At what points list. without using the under strength rule?
I guess you could do it with basically no special or heavy weapons.
I've got a total of 7 in a 2k list and i have a land raider, remember you're getting 3 just from being battleforged
jcd386 wrote:Aggressors are 43 points each, for either load-out, which seems pretty reasonable to me.
They do put out a lot of bolter fire, but i don't see them getting to double shoot that often since they either need to move into range, or get out of a transport. Of course you can also let the enemy get into range, but I can't imagine them not being a prime target if they are out in the open and a lot of common weapons 1 shot them. That being said they are probably the best thing to put into their transport, with hellblasters being the other contender.
The main other way i would see using them is with the raven-guard stratagem, getting them close enough to put some hurt on the enemy before dying, ideally with as much other alpha strike units as possible.
I actually feel bad that my chapter is 'probably' a raven guard descendant, it's going to make flamer fist versions of those guys sort of silly
MinscS2 wrote: I'm also curious how you get so many CP's.
I'm having "issues" getting more than 6 CP, since it requires a minimum of 3 HQ's, and I find that I really don't want that many HQ's.
Heck, the only reason I take 2 HQ's is so that I can get a battalion detatchment.
I guess you can save some points by taking cheap HQ's such as Chaplains and Techmarines.
Depends what you want to run. Lieutenants, librarians, techmarines and even primaris captains aren't that expensive points wise and can provide blobs of units buffs. What are you basing the core of your lists around?
MinscS2 wrote: I'm also curious how you get so many CP's.
I'm having "issues" getting more than 6 CP, since it requires a minimum of 3 HQ's, and I find that I really don't want that many HQ's.
Heck, the only reason I take 2 HQ's is so that I can get a battalion detatchment.
I guess you can save some points by taking cheap HQ's such as Chaplains and Techmarines.
Characters can be cheap if running them fairly stock.
min troop is min.
and i can get 6 no issues.
i think the primary issue im running into is that i dont like running my troops on foot and often buy rhinos and razorbacks which add up on top of the units they carry.
Not sure if any of you are miniwargaming vault members, but Quirk recently ran an Ultramarines brigade detachment WITH Bobbie G at 2k points.
6 min tac squads with 3 lascannons and 3 missiles, 3 base jump pack assault squads, 3 vindicators, a las dreadnought, an apothecary and some servitors. A primaris librarian, a captain and a chaplain.
All in all, 15 CP and using the ultramarines warlord trait to get them back on a 5+.
Not 100% sure on how viable the chaos list was, but, it certainly destroyed a lot of units with the knight and helldrake, before Guilliman essentially 1 shotted the knight.
I personally have been bringing 2 rhinos and 2 razorbacks and can usually fit all my marines in there. Razor backs are great, and rhinos are like monstrous creatures that lock stuff up in combat, so i don't see either as a tax.
I've also found that a captain with a thunder hammer is pretty scary and can hold most stuff up if not kill it outright. So i don't hate having to take a couple. Same with a librarian, as smite, deny, and the force axe isn't too bad.
jcd386 wrote: I personally have been bringing 2 rhinos and 2 razorbacks and can usually fit all my marines in there. Razor backs are great, and rhinos are like monstrous creatures that lock stuff up in combat, so i don't see either as a tax.
I've also found that a captain with a thunder hammer is pretty scary and can hold most stuff up if not kill it outright. So i don't hate having to take a couple. Same with a librarian, as smite, deny, and the force axe isn't too bad.
I dont mean they are bad
i mean they dont fulfill a detachment slot making it harder to gain more CP not that they are not worth it. besides that 6 cp i find is more than enough for most games.
Sure, at 2000 you can take a pure marine brigade. But the troop, HQ, and IMO, fast attack slots are a fair bit of tax. Prior to seeing the new codex I'd prefer the battalion list flexibility to CPs. Now, the CPs are more useful, but you arent packing all those new primaris units or transports into a brigade at 2000 or less.
Id have really liked to see some marine specific detachments for 5-6 CPs, maybe that required tacticals or intercessors. Ie, fewer tax units, but spendier ones like youd expect in a marine army.
bort wrote: Sure, at 2000 you can take a pure marine brigade. But the troop, HQ, and IMO, fast attack slots are a fair bit of tax. Prior to seeing the new codex I'd prefer the battalion list flexibility to CPs. Now, the CPs are more useful, but you arent packing all those new primaris units or transports into a brigade at 2000 or less.
Id have really liked to see some marine specific detachments for 5-6 CPs, maybe that required tacticals or intercessors. Ie, fewer tax units, but spendier ones like youd expect in a marine army.
In all honesty you shouldn't be basing your entire army around CP or using certain stratagems or at least very rarely doing that. CP and stratagems are there to help you win the game, not be game winning. You should be able to get at least 5 CP total with a few detachments, otherwise having 4 isn't the end of the world. Don't get too hung up on having a top of CP or you're going to end up taking tax units you don't need.
The difference between battalion and brigade is pretty big, it's a shame that SM are basically locked out of any reasonable brigade builds. Some of the SM stratagems are very impactful and you always want to have the option of interrupting your opponent's charge attacks.
Personally I find fast attack the hardest slot to fill, if going for a brigade. I guess opinions vary on that. Inceptors are very expensive and I really don't rate them. It seems to me that reivers should have been FA. Land speeders, maybe? Something like a reiver driving an elysian tauros might make a cool attack bike. Hmm. Scout bikes actually seem quite good, epecially with their new stratagem.
If playing raven guard then actually 6 squads of intercessors wouldn't be a useless option. The HQs are worthwhile. Assorted dreadnoughts and aggressors for elites. Hellblasters infiltrating would be pretty nasty for your heavy support. But the inceptors just don't seem to bring anything - especially not for the price you pay. A redemptor is cheaper, has much more dakka, twice as many wounds (at T7) and a dreadnought ccw - and the redemptor isn't even that good. The plasma guys would make some kind of sense to armies other than raven guard.
It's annoying that people are going to be able to spray their dudes black, spot on some metal, and have an optimal army =P
sossen wrote: The difference between battalion and brigade is pretty big, it's a shame that SM are basically locked out of any reasonable brigade builds. Some of the SM stratagems are very impactful and you always want to have the option of interrupting your opponent's charge attacks.
Well, that's what balance and compelling choices are all about. You have to give to get.
sossen wrote: The difference between battalion and brigade is pretty big, it's a shame that SM are basically locked out of any reasonable brigade builds. Some of the SM stratagems are very impactful and you always want to have the option of interrupting your opponent's charge attacks.
Well, that's what balance and compelling choices are all about. You have to give to get.
SM has to give a lot more than most to get that juicy brigade. I doubt that it's worth it, 6 naked scout/tac/intercessor squads and three (probably bad) FA choices is a heavy price to pay.
So, for those nasty buggers of you who like CHEESE:
The latest FAQ clarified that effects that increases a models savingthrow by 1 also affects invulnerable saves and not just armour saves.
Primaris Psykers have a psychic power that increases a units savingthrow by 1.
Add one to your army and have him buff your TH/SS-terminators. Congratulations, your unit now has a 1+/2++ save.
I doubt GW thought about this to be honest...
I personally wont use this since I like my armies "pure" (No IG in my Salamanders and no Salamanders in my IG, etc.), and because I want to keep my friends, but if you play in a WAAC:y meta...you're welcome I guess?
How are people using their lieutenants? I was originally super exited to get this new kind of character, but in practice I have hard time justifying taking them. Vanilla captain is four points more than a primaris lieutenant, and has mostly the same profile except with better BS and LD, has better buff, comes with 4+ invulnerable save and generally has better weapon options... That is a lot of stuff for four points! (I really hope they adjust the costs in the codex, this is just absurd.) Sure, you might want to stack both buffs, but that starts to become a rather hefty points investment.
You can have tarantula sentry guns for not many points. They are FA for some weird reason. You get a little twin heavy bolter that sits there and shoots things. It's kind of characterful, if not good, and 3 of them come in around 80 points.
Failing that, attack bikes are decent objective grabbers. Land speeders with flamers are an interesting option. Actually if you ran a unit of 3 they'd be very fast, and not a lot of fun for people to charge.
There's nothing that you'd go out and take on purpose though, unless you play white scars I guess.
MinscS2 wrote: So, for those nasty buggers of you who like CHEESE:
The latest FAQ clarified that effects that increases a models savingthrow by 1 also affects invulnerable saves and not just armour saves.
Primaris Psykers have a psychic power that increases a units savingthrow by 1.
Add one to your army and have him buff your TH/SS-terminators. Congratulations, your unit now has a 1+/2++ save.
I doubt GW thought about this to be honest...
I personally wont use this since I like my armies "pure" (No IG in my Salamanders and no Salamanders in my IG, etc.), but if you play in a WAAC:y meta...you're welcome I guess?
MinscS2 wrote: So, for those nasty buggers of you who like CHEESE:
The latest FAQ clarified that effects that increases a models savingthrow by 1 also affects invulnerable saves and not just armour saves.
Primaris Psykers have a psychic power that increases a units savingthrow by 1.
Add one to your army and have him buff your TH/SS-terminators. Congratulations, your unit now has a 1+/2++ save.
I doubt GW thought about this to be honest...
I personally wont use this since I like my armies "pure" (No IG in my Salamanders and no Salamanders in my IG, etc.), and because I want to keep my friends, but if you play in a WAAC:y meta...you're welcome I guess?
This only works for Astra Militarum Terminators tho.
MinscS2 wrote: So, for those nasty buggers of you who like CHEESE:
The latest FAQ clarified that effects that increases a models savingthrow by 1 also affects invulnerable saves and not just armour saves.
Primaris Psykers have a psychic power that increases a units savingthrow by 1.
Add one to your army and have him buff your TH/SS-terminators. Congratulations, your unit now has a 1+/2++ save.
I doubt GW thought about this to be honest...
I personally wont use this since I like my armies "pure" (No IG in my Salamanders and no Salamanders in my IG, etc.), and because I want to keep my friends, but if you play in a WAAC:y meta...you're welcome I guess?
This only works for Astra Militarum Terminators tho.
Oh did i missunderstand? i though he meant the new primaris lib model :( sad times
Mandragola wrote: You can have tarantula sentry guns for not many points. They are FA for some weird reason. You get a little twin heavy bolter that sits there and shoots things. It's kind of characterful, if not good, and 3 of them come in around 80 points.
Failing that, attack bikes are decent objective grabbers. Land speeders with flamers are an interesting option. Actually if you ran a unit of 3 they'd be very fast, and not a lot of fun for people to charge.
There's nothing that you'd go out and take on purpose though, unless you play white scars I guess.
Eww, really? My dang Imperium II book has been on back order, so I havent priced out the nonSM options.
You tell me I need to take 1 regular assault or biker squad instead of a veteran one as a tax to get more CPs, thats a choice Id consider. Telling me I need 200-250 pts of naked ASMs or speeders hurts too much. But oh, you can bypass the hard choice with 80pts of tarantulas?
ph34r wrote: What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?
Personally i think you don't actually want a pure gunline with raven guard since even unless all your enemy has is heavy weapons they'll just move whilst firing and close until we breaks your chapter tactics. Necrons for instance with a load of warriors can probably wether the storm and then just blast you point blank way better than you can and there are other things like eldar can find ways to mitigate or even ignore it with a few units.
I think a mix is best of a strong gunline of infantry (probably intercessors and devastators) and maybe dreads if that's your thing in the back with units like terminators and assault squads/VV in reserve to jump down and slow advances and finish off units so you can take objectives
Also Aggressors get a special mention imho since with the stratagem you can start the game 9" away and then either take double shots with guns and frags or move forward and burn a unit to death
ph34r wrote: What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?
Personally i think you don't actually want a pure gunline with raven guard since even unless all your enemy has is heavy weapons they'll just move whilst firing and close until we breaks your chapter tactics. Necrons for instance with a load of warriors can probably wether the storm and then just blast you point blank way better than you can and there are other things like eldar can find ways to mitigate or even ignore it with a few units.
I think a mix is best of a strong gunline of infantry (probably intercessors and devastators) and maybe dreads if that's your thing in the back with units like terminators and assault squads/VV in reserve to jump down and slow advances and finish off units so you can take objectives
Also Aggressors get a special mention imho since with the stratagem you can start the game 9" away and then either take double shots with guns and frags or move forward and burn a unit to death
Ditto i think you want a good mix of things.
im honestly thinking centurion assault squads poping up 9" away then moving and assaulting could be one of the most broken things in the game for T1 assault.
but you still want a good gun line to take out any flyers or other heavy support that you can spot.
What are you guys going to use as screens in your SM armies? Scouts? Tacs? An IG detachment?
Careful deployment can help mitigate the units that are within 9" of a dropping enemy unit, but I've found that a lot of my lists don't have a ton of expendable units in them so far.
jcd386 wrote: What are you guys going to use as screens in your SM armies? Scouts? Tacs? An IG detachment?
Careful deployment can help mitigate the units that are within 9" of a dropping enemy unit, but I've found that a lot of my lists don't have a ton of expendable units in them so far.
For the current list I'm using, it's three squads of CCW Scouts, all with Combi-Melta just in case. I know Combi-Plasma is the hot thing, but my friends only have the Combi-Melta so...
wtwlf123 wrote: On the page that explains how to use detachments and what command points are.
I feel like a jackass for missing that. If I knew that I might gotten better than 4th at my locals.
Congrats either way!
Thanks. The Minotaurs list I posted here and in the Army List section actually did alright. I guess my other issue is just how Chapter Tactics are supposed to work for us FW Chapter users.
ph34r wrote: What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?
Personally i think you don't actually want a pure gunline with raven guard since even unless all your enemy has is heavy weapons they'll just move whilst firing and close until we breaks your chapter tactics. Necrons for instance with a load of warriors can probably wether the storm and then just blast you point blank way better than you can and there are other things like eldar can find ways to mitigate or even ignore it with a few units.
I think a mix is best of a strong gunline of infantry (probably intercessors and devastators) and maybe dreads if that's your thing in the back with units like terminators and assault squads/VV in reserve to jump down and slow advances and finish off units so you can take objectives
Also Aggressors get a special mention imho since with the stratagem you can start the game 9" away and then either take double shots with guns and frags or move forward and burn a unit to death
Ditto i think you want a good mix of things.
im honestly thinking centurion assault squads poping up 9" away then moving and assaulting could be one of the most broken things in the game for T1 assault.
but you still want a good gun line to take out any flyers or other heavy support that you can spot.
Yeah despite what people htink it's not a straight boost to surviveability, it's a situational bonus that is basec on making your enemy play actively aggressive, i'm all for active aggression in the game but you force someone who isn't used to it to rush at you and they'll make serious and exploitable mistakes.
Assault Centurions are almost certainly the most capable candidate but they cost more than anything else and people are already learning to bubblewrap so it'll be situational at best
Yeah despite what people htink it's not a straight boost to surviveability, it's a situational bonus that is basec on making your enemy play actively aggressive, i'm all for active aggression in the game but you force someone who isn't used to it to rush at you and they'll make serious and exploitable mistakes.
Assault Centurions are almost certainly the most capable candidate but they cost more than anything else and people are already learning to bubblewrap so it'll be situational at best
Its primarily why i like the idea of assault centurions
a unit of 3 has 6d6 flamers and 18 bolter shots out their chests. i dont recall how much aggressors can put out but i dont think their fists are nearlly as strong as siege drills.
it should for the most part wreck most bubble wrap level units.
double that for a full unit but man thats expensive unit for 13 Str10 ap -4 D3 close combat attacks
sossen wrote: The difference between battalion and brigade is pretty big, it's a shame that SM are basically locked out of any reasonable brigade builds. Some of the SM stratagems are very impactful and you always want to have the option of interrupting your opponent's charge attacks.
Well, that's what balance and compelling choices are all about. You have to give to get.
SM has to give a lot more than most to get that juicy brigade. I doubt that it's worth it, 6 naked scout/tac/intercessor squads and three (probably bad) FA choices is a heavy price to pay.
In exchange, SM gets really impactful stratagems, just as you described. I see no issues here. Yet.
So, I am manipulating my list so I can get more Command Points. I have one Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments planned. I am one Elites short on one Vanguard Detachment, however, I have a 10-man Sternguard Squad. Should I divide the Sternguard up, despite it reducing the effectiveness of Strategems, or just live with 7 Command Points?
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am manipulating my list so I can get more Command Points. I have one Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments planned. I am one Elites short on one Vanguard Detachment, however, I have a 10-man Sternguard Squad. Should I divide the Sternguard up, despite it reducing the effectiveness of Strategems, or just live with 7 Command Points?
Depends, what else do you have and do you value spending CP on those other things. If the sternguard are your best unit then probably not since you can't same the same stratagem twice a round, that said though sternguard are pretty easy to kill, so i wouldn't bet on them being you're be all end all.
Also i think you have to allocate CP to what you're likely to need in your mind ahead of battle, for me it's like 2 on rerolls, 2 on morale and my other 3 wherever i need them at the time.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am manipulating my list so I can get more Command Points. I have one Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments planned. I am one Elites short on one Vanguard Detachment, however, I have a 10-man Sternguard Squad. Should I divide the Sternguard up, despite it reducing the effectiveness of Strategems, or just live with 7 Command Points?
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am manipulating my list so I can get more Command Points. I have one Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments planned. I am one Elites short on one Vanguard Detachment, however, I have a 10-man Sternguard Squad. Should I divide the Sternguard up, despite it reducing the effectiveness of Strategems, or just live with 7 Command Points?
Depends, what else do you have and do you value spending CP on those other things. If the sternguard are your best unit then probably not since you can't same the same stratagem twice a round, that said though sternguard are pretty easy to kill, so i wouldn't bet on them being you're be all end all.
Also i think you have to allocate CP to what you're likely to need in your mind ahead of battle, for me it's like 2 on rerolls, 2 on morale and my other 3 wherever i need them at the time.
Pedro Kantor
Rhino Primaris
Lieutenant (with Fist of Vengeance)
Apothecary
Honour Guard
Intercessors Squad x2
Bolter Scouts
Sternguard with Combi Melta x5
Sternguard with Combi Plasma x5
Sternguard with Special Issue Boltguns x10
Lascannon Devastators
Hellblasters
Asscan Razorback X2
Rhino
I have the points left for a Chapter Champion or a Lieutenant with a Power Sword. The Chapter Champion seems to be a better choice since the first Lieutenant and Pedro will make synergize well. A second Lieutenant would go back with Hellblasters or Lascannon Devastators.
Ultimately, I think Slayer-Fan123 is right, 7 CP is probably enough. Plus, a huge squad of Sternguard works better with Command Points and they have a high enough Leadership not to lose too much to Morale.
Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?
Waaaghpower wrote: Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?
Waaaghpower wrote: Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?
You would lose out on chapter tactics
otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.
and chapter tactics can be a game changer. does anyone know if that affects relics too? for some reason i thought i read that it did
Waaaghpower wrote: Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?
You would lose out on chapter tactics
otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.
Ooh, gotcha. Out of curiosity, can you still bring in allied detachments without losing Chapter Tactics? Does the whole ARMY have to be [Chapter], or just the Detachment?
MasterSlowPoke wrote: What do people think is the best loadout for a backfield Captain to babysit some long range stuff? Maybe Primaris with a MC Stalker Rifle?
This is what i'm planning to use initially. Cheap and reasonably effective backline buff unit.
Though i might also add in the power sword, simply as an additional combat aid should the need arise.
Waaaghpower wrote: Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?
You would lose out on chapter tactics
otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.
Ooh, gotcha. Out of curiosity, can you still bring in allied detachments without losing Chapter Tactics? Does the whole ARMY have to be [Chapter], or just the Detachment?
They said detachment on Facebook. So you could take a cheap battalion full of mixed Imperium for 9 command points, and then what you want in a smaller detachment. Probably not worthspending 300-500 points just to get more command points though.
jcd386 wrote: I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.
They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.
I totally forgot to look into wl traits
what did everyone else get?
Crimson Fists WL trait is basically Rampage except it triggers if he is within 6" of 10 enemy models. So Pedro Kantor does 5+d3 attacks if 10 or more models are near him. Kind of lame, actually. I would have preferred Iron Resolve (+1W and Ignore Wounds on 6).
True, but it makes him a flat out murder machine in CC.
+1 A to himself and all allies within 6". +1d3A when he has 10+ enemies within 6".
Park a banner, apothecary and Lt near him (with the fist of vengance) for the win.
Its almost worth buying a second relic for the 'banner of the emperor'. Maybe a third relic so the Apothecary can get himself a 2+ save.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote: What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?
Primaris Agressors.
Park as many of them as you want 9" away before turn 1 using your strategem. 4 units of 5 should suffice. It'll cost you 4 CP. It'll cost 800 points.
Alpha strike him with each unit spitting out 60 bolter shots and 20d6 frag grenade shots.
Thats 240 bolter shots and 80d6 frag grenade rounds... it should remove pretty much every troop he has from the board.
I advise picking a Lt or two and Captain (or Shrike) with jump packs, and deep striking them on turn 1 near the units for re-rolls to hit and wound. Thats another 3-400 points.
Remaining points should be spend on as many lascannons on troops and dreads as you can afford and parking them miles away in a gunline.
Have a few cheap deepstriking units (Reivers are OK) to drop on objectives while your opponenet deals with the Alpha strike.
ph34r wrote: What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?
Primaris Agressors.
Park as many of them as you want 9" away before turn 1 using your strategem. 4 units of 5 should suffice. It'll cost you 4 CP. It'll cost 800 points.
Alpha strike him with each unit spitting out 60 bolter shots and 20d6 frag grenade shots.
Thats 240 bolter shots and 80d6 frag grenade rounds... it should remove pretty much every troop he has from the board.
I advise picking a Lt or two and Captain (or Shrike) with jump packs, and deep striking them on turn 1 near the units for re-rolls to hit and wound. Thats another 3-400 points.
Remaining points should be spend on as many lascannons on troops and dreads as you can afford and parking them miles away in a gunline.
Have a few cheap deepstriking units (Reivers are OK) to drop on objectives while your opponenet deals with the Alpha strike.
Okay, "during deployment" is not a phase per se, but I'm pretty sure that the RG stratagem is going to be FAQ'd for one use only in Matched play. Setting up several units within rapid fire range sounds not only gamey but rather disgusting as well.
ph34r wrote: What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?
Primaris Agressors.
Park as many of them as you want 9" away before turn 1 using your strategem. 4 units of 5 should suffice. It'll cost you 4 CP. It'll cost 800 points.
Alpha strike him with each unit spitting out 60 bolter shots and 20d6 frag grenade shots.
Thats 240 bolter shots and 80d6 frag grenade rounds... it should remove pretty much every troop he has from the board.
I advise picking a Lt or two and Captain (or Shrike) with jump packs, and deep striking them on turn 1 near the units for re-rolls to hit and wound. Thats another 3-400 points.
Remaining points should be spend on as many lascannons on troops and dreads as you can afford and parking them miles away in a gunline.
Have a few cheap deepstriking units (Reivers are OK) to drop on objectives while your opponenet deals with the Alpha strike.
Okay, "during deployment" is not a phase per se, but I'm pretty sure that the RG stratagem is going to be FAQ'd for one use only in Matched play. Setting up several units within rapid fire range sounds not only gamey but rather disgusting as well.
Enjoy it while it lasts though.
Stratagems you use before game are specifically called out as unlimited in the BRB (page 215). And honestly I doubt they'll nerf this as it fits wiht the RG's character. It's just better than most other stratagems. I think it should probably cost 2CPs, or maybe 1 CP for troops and 2 for anything else.
Note though that they will count as moving, so cannot double-fire. Check the FAQs for this if you want confirmation. Deep strike, and anything similar, always makes the squad count as having moved.
Casvalremdeikun, why not take a heavy support detachment instead of another elite? You have two heavy support choices already and there are loads of good ones that you could add on. But for now you seem to have only 3 HQs and you need 4. The apothecary and chapter champion are both elites. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something though.
How are you finding the rhino primaris? I'm going to be at warhammer world this weekend and am thinking of buying one. Giving a unit +1 to hit is an immense bonus - potentially good enough to make my IF bolter drill stratagem worth using.
Casvalremdeikun, why not take a heavy support detachment instead of another elite? You have two heavy support choices already and there are loads of good ones that you could add on. But for now you seem to have only 3 HQs and you need 4. The apothecary and chapter champion are both elites. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something though.
How are you finding the rhino primaris? I'm going to be at warhammer world this weekend and am thinking of buying one. Giving a unit +1 to hit is an immense bonus - potentially good enough to make my IF bolter drill stratagem worth using.
That's actually the dilemma. If I take another Lieutenant, I will have four HQ, but only 5 Elite. If I split the Sternguard, that will give me 6, which is enough for two Vanguard Detachments. But I don't really want to split the Sternguard because Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship both only affect one unit. I think I am just going to stick with the two detachments for now.
I haven't actually used the Rhino Primaris yet. Most of my games have been at 1000 pts, and it is too expensive to field at that value. It still looks like it will work great though. It is a Rhino, so it can Regen on a 6, but also heal itself with a Servo Skull if needed. But the +1 to Hit is great. It basically negates my need for dedicated anti-air. It will function as a delivery system for Pedro, the Lieutenant, the Apothecary, Honour Guard, and whatever the six model ends up being. The Chapter Champion's 2+ Armor and non-redundant ability makes him an ideal candidate. A Company Champion might be workable as well. His ability to get an Invulnerable, even if it is a 5+, helps him out a bit, though at the cost of an attack.
Stratagems you use before game are specifically called out as unlimited in the BRB (page 215). And honestly I doubt they'll nerf this as it fits wiht the RG's character. It's just better than most other stratagems. I think it should probably cost 2CPs, or maybe 1 CP for troops and 2 for anything else.
Note though that they will count as moving, so cannot double-fire. Check the FAQs for this if you want confirmation. Deep strike, and anything similar, always makes the squad count as having moved.
Ignore the boltstorm gauntlets and frag launchers and just grab the flamer gauntlets then, sart 9" away and then move into flamer range on turn 1.
Honestly as someone who will have to use RG tactics until/unless FW releases chapter tactics i think using this multiple times is broken as hell, particularly with flamestorm aggressors who could honestly wipe an infantry unit each
I'm pretty sure that the aggressors count as not having moved during their turn, since they will specifically deploy before turn 1 starts according to the stratagem.
Stratagems you use before game are specifically called out as unlimited in the BRB (page 215). And honestly I doubt they'll nerf this as it fits wiht the RG's character. It's just better than most other stratagems. I think it should probably cost 2CPs, or maybe 1 CP for troops and 2 for anything else.
Note though that they will count as moving, so cannot double-fire. Check the FAQs for this if you want confirmation. Deep strike, and anything similar, always makes the squad count as having moved.
Ignore the boltstorm gauntlets and frag launchers and just grab the flamer gauntlets then, sart 9" away and then move into flamer range on turn 1.
Honestly as someone who will have to use RG tactics until/unless FW releases chapter tactics i think using this multiple times is broken as hell, particularly with flamestorm aggressors who could honestly wipe an infantry unit each
They aren't deep striking, I thought. Because they're actually deploying, even if they have the same limitation for positioning as deep strike, it isn't a deep strike, right?
Yeah despite what people htink it's not a straight boost to surviveability, it's a situational bonus that is basec on making your enemy play actively aggressive, i'm all for active aggression in the game but you force someone who isn't used to it to rush at you and they'll make serious and exploitable mistakes.
Assault Centurions are almost certainly the most capable candidate but they cost more than anything else and people are already learning to bubblewrap so it'll be situational at best
Its primarily why i like the idea of assault centurions
a unit of 3 has 6d6 flamers and 18 bolter shots out their chests. i dont recall how much aggressors can put out but i dont think their fists are nearlly as strong as siege drills.
it should for the most part wreck most bubble wrap level units.
double that for a full unit but man thats expensive unit for 13 Str10 ap -4 D3 close combat attacks
Agressors wont be better in CC im sure. Each unit will have 7 power fist attacks.
They are mid range shooting. if you don't move, you do 36 bolter shots plus and additional 6d6 (avg) 21 bolter shots. All for 129 points a squad. Not gonna bring a land raider down anytime soon but good anti hordes/infantry. Roboute with them and that's a lot of damage potential.
Stratagems you use before game are specifically called out as unlimited in the BRB (page 215). And honestly I doubt they'll nerf this as it fits wiht the RG's character. It's just better than most other stratagems. I think it should probably cost 2CPs, or maybe 1 CP for troops and 2 for anything else.
Note though that they will count as moving, so cannot double-fire. Check the FAQs for this if you want confirmation. Deep strike, and anything similar, always makes the squad count as having moved.
Ignore the boltstorm gauntlets and frag launchers and just grab the flamer gauntlets then, sart 9" away and then move into flamer range on turn 1.
Honestly as someone who will have to use RG tactics until/unless FW releases chapter tactics i think using this multiple times is broken as hell, particularly with flamestorm aggressors who could honestly wipe an infantry unit each
They aren't deep striking, I thought. Because they're actually deploying, even if they have the same limitation for positioning as deep strike, it isn't a deep strike, right?
That is correct. This is why the Strategem is so good. Units like Reivers can deploy close enough to chuck their Shock Grenades after moving, then charge without fear of overwatch. And that is just one possible use. Twin Flamer Assault Squads will be able to get in range so they can blast away with their flamers, something they couldn't otherwise do.
ph34r wrote: What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?
Primaris Agressors.
Park as many of them as you want 9" away before turn 1 using your strategem. 4 units of 5 should suffice. It'll cost you 4 CP. It'll cost 800 points.
Alpha strike him with each unit spitting out 60 bolter shots and 20d6 frag grenade shots.
Thats 240 bolter shots and 80d6 frag grenade rounds... it should remove pretty much every troop he has from the board.
I advise picking a Lt or two and Captain (or Shrike) with jump packs, and deep striking them on turn 1 near the units for re-rolls to hit and wound. Thats another 3-400 points.
Remaining points should be spend on as many lascannons on troops and dreads as you can afford and parking them miles away in a gunline.
Have a few cheap deepstriking units (Reivers are OK) to drop on objectives while your opponenet deals with the Alpha strike.
Okay, "during deployment" is not a phase per se, but I'm pretty sure that the RG stratagem is going to be FAQ'd for one use only in Matched play. Setting up several units within rapid fire range sounds not only gamey but rather disgusting as well.
Enjoy it while it lasts though.
Stratagems you use before game are specifically called out as unlimited in the BRB (page 215). And honestly I doubt they'll nerf this as it fits wiht the RG's character. It's just better than most other stratagems. I think it should probably cost 2CPs, or maybe 1 CP for troops and 2 for anything else.
Note though that they will count as moving, so cannot double-fire. Check the FAQs for this if you want confirmation. Deep strike, and anything similar, always makes the squad count as having moved.
Casvalremdeikun, why not take a heavy support detachment instead of another elite? You have two heavy support choices already and there are loads of good ones that you could add on. But for now you seem to have only 3 HQs and you need 4. The apothecary and chapter champion are both elites. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something though.
How are you finding the rhino primaris? I'm going to be at warhammer world this weekend and am thinking of buying one. Giving a unit +1 to hit is an immense bonus - potentially good enough to make my IF bolter drill stratagem worth using.
It only works on troops.
And they don't arrive as reinforcements. They are set up as if they are being deployed before the battle. On your first turn they count as not moving and can move and charge as normal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pedro forgive me, but if I could paint Black armour my whole CF army would be raven guard by now.
Casvalremdeikun, why not take a heavy support detachment instead of another elite? You have two heavy support choices already and there are loads of good ones that you could add on. But for now you seem to have only 3 HQs and you need 4. The apothecary and chapter champion are both elites. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something though.
How are you finding the rhino primaris? I'm going to be at warhammer world this weekend and am thinking of buying one. Giving a unit +1 to hit is an immense bonus - potentially good enough to make my IF bolter drill stratagem worth using.
That's actually the dilemma. If I take another Lieutenant, I will have four HQ, but only 5 Elite. If I split the Sternguard, that will give me 6, which is enough for two Vanguard Detachments. But I don't really want to split the Sternguard because Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship both only affect one unit. I think I am just going to stick with the two detachments for now.
I haven't actually used the Rhino Primaris yet. Most of my games have been at 1000 pts, and it is too expensive to field at that value. It still looks like it will work great though. It is a Rhino, so it can Regen on a 6, but also heal itself with a Servo Skull if needed. But the +1 to Hit is great. It basically negates my need for dedicated anti-air. It will function as a delivery system for Pedro, the Lieutenant, the Apothecary, Honour Guard, and whatever the six model ends up being. The Chapter Champion's 2+ Armor and non-redundant ability makes him an ideal candidate. A Company Champion might be workable as well. His ability to get an Invulnerable, even if it is a 5+, helps him out a bit, though at the cost of an attack.
I think you're probably investing too much in elite characters ,to be honest, and then putting them all in one basket. It's a risky plan, and probably not a great one, if I'm honest.
I'd cut a character or two and instead buy something with a gun on it - such as a Predator. Maybe drop a razorback too and use the primaris rhino as a transport for 5 sternguard.
I figure that with Pedro being a beatstick that makes other beatstick better, I would be best off surrounding him with more beatsticks. Because they aren't one unit, they can charge different things and I can situate the buff characters in-between. I do agree that I will need a bit more long range stuff, so I might take my Hellblasters out and put a tank of some sort in there. I used to have a Vindicator in my list, but I just don't see it materializing enough damage to be worth it.
The Rhino Primaris already transports the Good Squad, so taking out a Razorback won't work.
ph34r wrote: What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?
Primaris Agressors.
Park as many of them as you want 9" away before turn 1 using your strategem. 4 units of 5 should suffice. It'll cost you 4 CP. It'll cost 800 points.
Alpha strike him with each unit spitting out 60 bolter shots and 20d6 frag grenade shots.
Thats 240 bolter shots and 80d6 frag grenade rounds... it should remove pretty much every troop he has from the board.
I advise picking a Lt or two and Captain (or Shrike) with jump packs, and deep striking them on turn 1 near the units for re-rolls to hit and wound. Thats another 3-400 points.
Remaining points should be spend on as many lascannons on troops and dreads as you can afford and parking them miles away in a gunline.
Have a few cheap deepstriking units (Reivers are OK) to drop on objectives while your opponenet deals with the Alpha strike.
Okay, "during deployment" is not a phase per se, but I'm pretty sure that the RG stratagem is going to be FAQ'd for one use only in Matched play. Setting up several units within rapid fire range sounds not only gamey but rather disgusting as well.
Enjoy it while it lasts though.
Stratagems you use before game are specifically called out as unlimited in the BRB (page 215). And honestly I doubt they'll nerf this as it fits wiht the RG's character. It's just better than most other stratagems. I think it should probably cost 2CPs, or maybe 1 CP for troops and 2 for anything else.
Note though that they will count as moving, so cannot double-fire. Check the FAQs for this if you want confirmation. Deep strike, and anything similar, always makes the squad count as having moved.
Casvalremdeikun, why not take a heavy support detachment instead of another elite? You have two heavy support choices already and there are loads of good ones that you could add on. But for now you seem to have only 3 HQs and you need 4. The apothecary and chapter champion are both elites. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something though.
How are you finding the rhino primaris? I'm going to be at warhammer world this weekend and am thinking of buying one. Giving a unit +1 to hit is an immense bonus - potentially good enough to make my IF bolter drill stratagem worth using.
It only works on troops.
And they don't arrive as reinforcements. They are set up as if they are being deployed before the battle. On your first turn they count as not moving and can move and charge as normal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pedro forgive me, but if I could paint Black armour my whole CF army would be raven guard by now.
Hmm actually we're both part right and part wrong.
It isn't just troops. It's only raven guard infantry. But they don't deep strike, they set up at the start of the first battle round, before either player has a turn. I'm not sure if this is before or after the roll to seize the initiative.
So it's basically perfect for aggressors. You deploy 9" away (or 17.5" away if bolter-armed), then you are ready to burn and charge things or stand still and double shoot. That's absolutely amazing.
It does bring me back to a complaint though. Chapter-specific tactics and stratagems benefit the wrong units! This stratagem is basically no help to sneaky units like reivers and scouts. Instead it buffs chunky stuff like aggressors, assault centurions and terminators. It's somewhat useful for assault squads, but you can deploy really close so there's no real need for jump packs. Inceptors don't need it and it feels a bit wasted on most troops.
On the other hand, inceptors are pretty good for my imperial fists. All those cover-ignoring shots will be pretty painful for other people's infantry. I understand that their price is coming down to something a bit more reasonable in the new codex, and they'll be really useful for going to snatch objectives and kill hidden troops. Raven guard ones are still probably best, thanks to their survivability, but IF ones aren't awful.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Has anyone seen actual evidence that Inceptors are coming down in price?
yes. During one of the review videos that page is shown very clear and the price is 30 points rather than 45. The reviewer said that the assault Bolter are the same price.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Has anyone seen actual evidence that Inceptors are coming down in price?
yes. During one of the review videos that page is shown very clear and the price is 30 points rather than 45. The reviewer said that the assault Bolter are the same price.
Now that is downright great news. I will definitely be running them at 180pt a squad! That is fantastic news.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Has anyone seen actual evidence that Inceptors are coming down in price?
yes. During one of the review videos that page is shown very clear and the price is 30 points rather than 45. The reviewer said that the assault Bolter are the same price.
Cool. I've only seen a video in which a guy says they are "15 points cheaper", but it only shows the outside of the book. I haven't seen any images of the points page.
It's a pain because I'm playing in a tournament this weekend at warhammer world. Do I paint my inceptors or not? So much to do already, and yellow isn't easy!
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Has anyone seen actual evidence that Inceptors are coming down in price?
yes. During one of the review videos that page is shown very clear and the price is 30 points rather than 45. The reviewer said that the assault Bolter are the same price.
Now that is downright great news. I will definitely be running them at 180pt a squad! That is fantastic news.
Its better, but still not all that great.. Easier to include them as a squad of 3 in lists now but I cant see doing more then that.
Waaaghpower wrote: Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?
You would lose out on chapter tactics
otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.
Ooh, gotcha. Out of curiosity, can you still bring in allied detachments without losing Chapter Tactics? Does the whole ARMY have to be [Chapter], or just the Detachment?
They said detachment on Facebook. So you could take a cheap battalion full of mixed Imperium for 9 command points, and then what you want in a smaller detachment. Probably not worthspending 300-500 points just to get more command points though.
Not JUST for the command points, but SoB can be pretty danged potent at low point values, and I play them regularly. A Brigade of SoB filling up half my list (with other units in there for flavor, maybe) and a Battalion or other smaller detachment of Marines filling up the other half could work out really well.
Waaaghpower wrote: Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?
You would lose out on chapter tactics
otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.
Ooh, gotcha. Out of curiosity, can you still bring in allied detachments without losing Chapter Tactics? Does the whole ARMY have to be [Chapter], or just the Detachment?
They said detachment on Facebook. So you could take a cheap battalion full of mixed Imperium for 9 command points, and then what you want in a smaller detachment. Probably not worthspending 300-500 points just to get more command points though.
Not JUST for the command points, but SoB can be pretty danged potent at low point values, and I play them regularly. A Brigade of SoB filling up half my list (with other units in there for flavor, maybe) and a Battalion or other smaller detachment of Marines filling up the other half could work out really well.
If anything, the party after the battle would be pretty epic.
Okay, I did a little math. The cheapest Sisters of Battle Brigade I'd be willing to run costs 1200 points. That's MSU Battle Sisters, two squads of Dominions and a squad of Seraphim, three squads of Retributors (only one of which gets heavy weapons,) two Imagifiers and a Dialogus, two Cannonnesses, and Saint Celestine with one Geminae.
That leaves 800 points for some battle-forged Marines, with enough points that I can definitely bring a Chapter Master among other things. Any suggestions on what to cram in there, as an Iron Hands player? (Or how I can shave down the 'Mixed Imperium' list I based around Sisters of Battle, to include more Marines?)
Waaaghpower wrote: Okay, I did a little math. The cheapest Sisters of Battle Brigade I'd be willing to run costs 1200 points. That's MSU Battle Sisters, two squads of Dominions and a squad of Seraphim, three squads of Retributors (only one of which gets heavy weapons,) two Imagifiers and a Dialogus, two Cannonnesses, and Saint Celestine with one Geminae.
That leaves 800 points for some battle-forged Marines, with enough points that I can definitely bring a Chapter Master among other things. Any suggestions on what to cram in there, as an Iron Hands player? (Or how I can shave down the 'Mixed Imperium' list I based around Sisters of Battle, to include more Marines?)
You'll want a solid melee threat to go with it. But yes, it is easy to get a good chunk of SOB in a list and do well.
What are people's thoughts on the Redemptor Dreadnought? Which weapon options seem to be the best? I like the amount of shots the Heavy Onslaught Cannon puts out, but the Macro Plasma Incinerator seems like a good ranged weapon as well. I am leaning toward Storm Bolters and an underslung Onslaught Cannon with the Macro Plasma Incinerator. This guy might replace my Hellblasters.
I am just thinking the Dread will be about as good as a Predator, but have a little more ability to deal with different things at once. The Icarus pod will help with flyers (I have no AA right now), the Onslaught Cannon and Storm Bolters will help with infantry, and the Macro Incinerator will deal with big stuff.
jcd386 wrote: I personally have been bringing 2 rhinos and 2 razorbacks and can usually fit all my marines in there. Razor backs are great, and rhinos are like monstrous creatures that lock stuff up in combat, so i don't see either as a tax.
I've also found that a captain with a thunder hammer is pretty scary and can hold most stuff up if not kill it outright. So i don't hate having to take a couple. Same with a librarian, as smite, deny, and the force axe isn't too bad.
I dont mean they are bad
i mean they dont fulfill a detachment slot making it harder to gain more CP not that they are not worth it. besides that 6 cp i find is more than enough for most games.
It is trivially easy to get another command point from one of the specialist detachments. Marines get piles of heap good elites, a lot of really good heavy supports, and cheap hqs
casvalremdeikun wrote: What are people's thoughts on the Redemptor Dreadnought? Which weapon options seem to be the best? I like the amount of shots the Heavy Onslaught Cannon puts out, but the Macro Plasma Incinerator seems like a good ranged weapon as well. I am leaning toward Storm Bolters and an underslung Onslaught Cannon with the Macro Plasma Incinerator. This guy might replace my Hellblasters.
I am just thinking the Dread will be about as good as a Predator, but have a little more ability to deal with different things at once. The Icarus pod will help with flyers (I have no AA right now), the Onslaught Cannon and Storm Bolters will help with infantry, and the Macro Incinerator will deal with big stuff.
It's a bit meh because it is not very durable and has degrading profile starting from bs 3+. The plasma cannon's power is highly random, whereas the gatling is kinda nice but doesn't really add anything that other units cannot already do. (Also, it is ugly.)
casvalremdeikun wrote: What are people's thoughts on the Redemptor Dreadnought? Which weapon options seem to be the best? I like the amount of shots the Heavy Onslaught Cannon puts out, but the Macro Plasma Incinerator seems like a good ranged weapon as well. I am leaning toward Storm Bolters and an underslung Onslaught Cannon with the Macro Plasma Incinerator. This guy might replace my Hellblasters.
I am just thinking the Dread will be about as good as a Predator, but have a little more ability to deal with different things at once. The Icarus pod will help with flyers (I have no AA right now), the Onslaught Cannon and Storm Bolters will help with infantry, and the Macro Incinerator will deal with big stuff.
It's a bit meh because it is not very durable and has degrading profile starting from bs 3+. The plasma cannon's power is highly random, whereas the gatling is kinda nice but doesn't really add anything that other units cannot already do. (Also, it is ugly.)
I am not going to debate its appearance (I like it, but those front doors will almost always be open), but I think the fact the Gatling doesn't really add anything new is what makes me not want to use it (I will be magnetizing regardless). The random nature of the plasma cannon is pretty annoying though. Just make it three or four shots! I will see what works out better. It is a little stupid that it only has Str 5. Why is it lower strength than an Assault Cannon.
Regardless, vs. a Quad Las Predator, it has a lot more shooting and is a little cheaper at the cost of some range. I still have my Lascannon Devastators to shore up my anti-armor needs.
It certainly looks better that way. Seeing it like that made me go from 'hell no' to 'maybe'.
Regardless, vs. a Quad Las Predator, it has a lot more shooting and is a little cheaper at the cost of some range. I still have my Lascannon Devastators to shore up my anti-armor needs.
How it has more shooting? Four lascannons is a lot of firepower.
In any case, apparently the designer has let it slip that there might be more variants incoming. I hope they get better guns! (And better legs.)
If you are useing a small SM force (a librarian with jet pack, 5 assault squad with jet packs, and ironclad all in a storm raven) in the same detachment as 2 assassins can you use any of the new stuff in the codex or do I save my cash?
It certainly looks better that way. Seeing it like that made me go from 'hell no' to 'maybe'.
Regardless, vs. a Quad Las Predator, it has a lot more shooting and is a little cheaper at the cost of some range. I still have my Lascannon Devastators to shore up my anti-armor needs.
How it has more shooting? Four lascannons is a lot of firepower.
In any case, apparently the designer has let it slip that there might be more variants incoming. I hope they get better guns! (And better legs.)
It averages the same number of shots as a quad Lascannon predator, but it has more Weapons than that. It can't fire those shots at different models, but it has five other weapons and a big punchy fist.
I am hoping the other variants are exclusive to other chapters. I am expecting a two fist variant for Blood Angels and a double weapon variant for Dark Angels. I doubt the designer would let slip that the codex is going to be incomplete right off the bat.
I have so much Dakka in the rest of my army, I think I need some firepower.
It averages the same number of shots as a quad Lascannon predator, but it has more Weapons than that. It can't fire those shots at different models, but it has five other weapons and a big punchy fist.
The plasma actually averages only 3.5 shots, and those are not lascannon shots. Even if you overcharge, they do only two damage. The lascannons are far superior for taking down vehicles. Then again, the plasma cannon is not terrible. If you're willing to burn command points for it, it can cause pretty decent damage.
It averages the same number of shots as a quad Lascannon predator, but it has more Weapons than that. It can't fire those shots at different models, but it has five other weapons and a big punchy fist.
The plasma actually averages only 3.5 shots, and those are not lascannon shots. Even if you overcharge, they do only two damage. The lascannons are far superior for taking down vehicles. Then again, the plasma cannon is not terrible. If you're willing to burn command points for it, it can cause pretty decent damage.
Potentially superior
i should know
10 lascannons did a wopping 2 wounds to a raven
obviously this is an outliner but there is something to be said about consistent damage.
It averages the same number of shots as a quad Lascannon predator, but it has more Weapons than that. It can't fire those shots at different models, but it has five other weapons and a big punchy fist.
The plasma actually averages only 3.5 shots, and those are not lascannon shots. Even if you overcharge, they do only two damage. The lascannons are far superior for taking down vehicles. Then again, the plasma cannon is not terrible. If you're willing to burn command points for it, it can cause pretty decent damage.
I have Devastators for Lascannons. It seems like, anymore, most things top out at T7, so the Macro Plasma is still wounding on 3s or better vs. most things. For everything else, Lascannons and Combi-Meltas.
obviously this is an outliner but there is something to be said about consistent damage.
Sure. But D6 shot weapon doesn't provide that...
Yeah, I really wish they would stop doing that. Still, I enjoy variety, so rather than have 18 Heavy Bolter shots, I want a big blaster. Imperial/Crimson Fists are better off with actual Heavy Bolters.
Someone on Reddit pointed out that the Spartean pistol can snipe Characters even while the bearer is in combat. That is a fun little side effect. An two shot, two damage pistol that can hit characters is pretty cool. Not the best option, but fun, nonetheless.
Trying to build a tank heavy list around the Killshot Stratagem. Have a good feel for the tanks I want to include and now just needs some veteran Space Marine player input to get the right balance of infantry to finish it off. It does not need to win tournaments however it would nice if it had a chance of winning a few games haha.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Has anyone seen actual evidence that Inceptors are coming down in price?
yes. During one of the review videos that page is shown very clear and the price is 30 points rather than 45. The reviewer said that the assault Bolter are the same price.
Now that is downright great news. I will definitely be running them at 180pt a squad! That is fantastic news.
Its better, but still not all that great.. Easier to include them as a squad of 3 in lists now but I cant see doing more then that.
Might be worth it deepstriking 6 of them with a Lt and Captain in a Jump Pack and going for a [Bolter drill] alpha strike. 36 shots, re-rolling misses, rerolling W, S5, -1.
When you really want something deleted from the board.
I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.
I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.
Weazel wrote: I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.
I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.
If you have to set them up before the roll to seize thats a different story.
Agressors are glass cannons (notwithstanding T5, 3+ and 2 W). You dont get the 1st turn, and your forward Agressor units parked 9" away from the enemy gunline are getting deleted from the board for the cost of 1 CP each!
Weazel wrote: I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.
I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.
If you have to set them up before the roll to seize thats a different story.
Agressors are glass cannons (notwithstanding T5, 3+ and 2 W). You dont get the 1st turn, and your forward Agressor units parked 9" away from the enemy gunline are getting deleted from the board for the cost of 1 CP each!
Idk, seize is only 1/6 chance so pretty unlikely. And for my army it would be nigh impossible to delete 30ish T5 W2 3+ models in a turn.
And it doesn't have to be Aggressors though. 5 units of assault terminators 9" away ready to beat you to a pulp is not something that's fun to face either.
Weazel wrote: I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.
I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.
It's not any worse than a shooting focused army getting first turn normally is. A lot of games are determined by that first turn.
Weazel wrote: I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.
I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.
It's not any worse than a shooting focused army getting first turn normally is. A lot of games are determined by that first turn.
Use the ITC roll offs.
Well not a lot of first turn armies get to within rapid fire range while at the same time count as not having moved... I get that it's not 100% reliable and obviously you can counter it, but when it can be pulled off successfully is feels rather disgusting.
Bottom line: shenanigans like this is what put me and probably a lot of other people off of 7th edition 40k.
Weazel wrote: I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.
I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.
If you have to set them up before the roll to seize thats a different story.
Agressors are glass cannons (notwithstanding T5, 3+ and 2 W). You dont get the 1st turn, and your forward Agressor units parked 9" away from the enemy gunline are getting deleted from the board for the cost of 1 CP each!
Idk, seize is only 1/6 chance so pretty unlikely. And for my army it would be nigh impossible to delete 30ish T5 W2 3+ models in a turn.
And it doesn't have to be Aggressors though. 5 units of assault terminators 9" away ready to beat you to a pulp is not something that's fun to face either.
Seize is 1/6 with a 1/6 CP re-roll (and you would be re-rolling).
If you're struggling to delete 30 models in a turn parked 9" away from you, you're possibly doing it wrong.
Theyre in [move + charge] distance of your melee troops and rapid fire distance of your Dakka.
Hose them with everything you have, then charge them. Even if you dont wipe them in turn 1, they dont have the Fly keyword and arent Ultramarines so they cant fall back and shoot on their turn.
Survivors wont be doing all that much, and youve just wiped out half his army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a CF player, I'd hit them with a 6 man Dev Cent squad (36 heavy bolter shots and 72 bolter shots from the Hurricane bolters) with a Lt for re-rolls to wound and Pedro Kantor for re-rolls to hit in support, using Bolter drill strategem for extra hits on a 6, and ignoring cover.
That should shift a few.
After that, Id look to hose the survivors with assailt canon razorbacks and Stormraven or Stormtalon.
The game would be all but won after turn 1's shooting plase.
Sensible people will know if they are going 1st or 2nd when they deploy their aggressors (barring seize). They will set them up at range >12" and in cover. They'll be pretty hard to get rid of.
It's not as if they are even expensive. A squad of 3 is 129 points.
There's so much utility in this ability. It's amazing for area denial. Simply starting on objectives is a massive bonus.
The RG Stratagem and Aggressors won't be a problem in my gaminggroup since we use the ITC-system of rolling off:
If you deploy your army first, you get +1 to the roll to see who goes first, you don't automatically go first.
I like 8th alot, but that whole "go first"-rule is the most stupid rule they've added in a long time.
MinscS2 wrote: The RG Stratagem and Aggressors won't be a problem in my gaminggroup since we use the ITC-system of rolling off:
If you deploy your army first, you get +1 to the roll to see who goes first, you don't automatically go first.
I like 8th alot, but that whole "go first"-rule is the most stupid rule they've added in a long time.
Agree with you on the first turn thing. It's a bad rule, and combines badly with how it now seems that first turn is more important than ever.
However, I think it's worth saying that the RG stratagem is extremely useful whether going first or second. There's actually no need to set up aggressors 9" away - they have 18" range. It's a pretty big deal just to be able to deploy after everything else has set up, but you can also stick troops on objectives and bubblewrap where you need to. Plus of course the RGCT makes it harder to kill your guys at range.
There's also a 2CP stratagem that lets you shoot with an infantry unit if an enemy deep strikes within 12", like the old interceptor rule. So dropping in plasma scions to clear out the aggressors isn't as straightforward as you might imagine.
Mandragola wrote: Sensible people will know if they are going 1st or 2nd when they deploy their aggressors (barring seize). They will set them up at range >12" and in cover. They'll be pretty hard to get rid of.
The seize represents a 31% of getting turn 1 with a CP reroll. So the aggressors will only get to do their thing at most 69% of the time.
To me the issue is the games vs RG strat spam spam will be fairly 1 sided from the first turn. If they go first, they probably win. If i steal, i probably do. Even with the ITC roll off, it doesn't strike me as being that much fun to play as or against.
jcd386 wrote: To me the issue is the games vs RG strat spam spam will be fairly 1 sided from the first turn. If they go first, they probably win. If i steal, i probably do. Even with the ITC roll off, it doesn't strike me as being that much fun to play as or against.
So mission accomplished. This forces you to re-evaluate how you play the game. Welcome to wargaming.
Since the Codex isn't out yet and we seemingly don't have all the info, why is there so much complaining? Lets let the dust settle on release first, at least.
My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.
The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.
Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.
There are weird ones too, like how the white scars stratagem doesn't even work on any of the new models.
Mandragola wrote: My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.
The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.
Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.
I have a small detachment of Imperial Fists and was keeping options open for maybe expanding them sometime in the future but was positively flabbergasted by their stratagem. Absolute and utter caca. Extra hit rolls on 6's could have worked brilliantly as their chapter tactic instead of the rather useless ignores cover they got. Maybe verging on too powerful as a passive CT but as a stratagem it's borderline useless.
jcd386 wrote: To me the issue is the games vs RG strat spam spam will be fairly 1 sided from the first turn. If they go first, they probably win. If i steal, i probably do. Even with the ITC roll off, it doesn't strike me as being that much fun to play as or against.
So mission accomplished. This forces you to re-evaluate how you play the game. Welcome to wargaming.
Since the Codex isn't out yet and we seemingly don't have all the info, why is there so much complaining? Lets let the dust settle on release first, at least.
Do you see a good way for every faction to counter RGCT spam over multiple builds? If not, it's a balance issue and should be fixed.
It's also possible it won't be nearly as scary as we think, so I'm all for giving it some time, and I'm all for new metas, having to buy more models, and changing strategies, but that doesn't mean something can't also be broken, or unfun for the majority of the community, and thus bad for the game.
I calculated 0.2 extra hits per bolter shot assuming reroll to hit, with a heavy bolter dev squad that's roughly 2.5 extra heavy bolter hits. Which roughly represents another heavy bolter firing three shots with reroll to hit, so about the same as using an armorium cherub.
Mandragola wrote: My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.
The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.
Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.
I have a small detachment of Imperial Fists and was keeping options open for maybe expanding them sometime in the future but was positively flabbergasted by their stratagem. Absolute and utter caca. Extra hit rolls on 6's could have worked brilliantly as their chapter tactic instead of the rather useless ignores cover they got. Maybe verging on too powerful as a passive CT but as a stratagem it's borderline useless.
I actually think the IF CT is pretty good. You should be playing with a lot of terrain. Most infantry I've used / fought against is in cover. It's actually not that hard to get vehicles in cover of you want to, especially by using rhinos to cover other tanks that are on terrain, and the bonus is pretty meaningful . Ignoring that means you do a significant amount of damage over the norm.
IF also get one of the best warlord traits, making their infantry very durable to most anti infantry fire if they are in cover.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So mostly i just think RG are too good, mostly because of their strat being used more than once. All the others are fairly useable, even if some are less flexible in the armies they can effectively build than others are.
I agree that the IF CT is fine. Ignoring cover is a decent bonus, particularly with bolt rifles or stalker bolt rifles getting AP -1 or 2. I quite like the idea of cover-ignoring inceptors with assault bolters too. People really like to put infantry in cover guarding objectives, and the IF CT gives you a really good way to kill them.
The stratagem is seriously weak though. I was actually thinking of including a primaris rhino to give a unit +1 to hit, to make it happen a bit more often, before I realised I could just buy a whole other squad of intercessors for the price and increase my shooting by 100%. It's hard to imagine that I'll ever use the stratagem.
The warlord trait is fine. I'm annoyed because I use Lysander and it does literally nothing for him, but he's forced to take it.
The Spartean is an oddity. It's arguably quite good, in that it turns your bolt pistol from nothing into something, but it's not clear who I should give it to.
It is annoying that mini-marines get access to all the relics and primaris guys can only have a few of them. I think the teeth of terra is probably the best option for most people. The CF power fist is great, too. The burning blade is hurt by only doing one damage, but a primaris captain is still better with it than with his ordinary power sword.
The best option might be to put a Librarian in the armour indominatus. He doesn't come with an invulnerable so that option of getting a 3++ for a turn could be great, and he's glad of the 2+. Other characters gain less, as they have invulnerables already... or are cheap guys you aren't too bothered to lose.
Amusingly, the chaplain dreadnought is allowed the armour indominatus. I expect FW will FAQ that before too long!
I have heard termi squad get equipement price cut, wich is good news.
Btw what do you think of reiver squads as mainline footsloggers; for 50 more than minimarines, you get 10 more hp, 10 more attack and assaut 2 on your bolter. If you drop IH or RG tactics you got yourself some solid body.
Also the price reduction on bike is huge. I think you can make a potent army + salamenders tactis buff melta attack bike and 3 man melta/plasma squad so hard.
The IF stratagem is as good as rerolling 1s to hit or wound if you do the math vs marines. So, not great, but potentially good when piled on to other auras and abilities.
jcd386 wrote: The stratagem is as good as rerolling 1s to hit or wound if you do the math for sternguard vs marines. So, not great, but potentially good when piled on to other auras and abilities.
So when combined with Rerolls to 1 and to wound, doesn't it become quite good?
I mean, it is a bit of a force multiplier when combined with other rerolls. The issue is that it only effects 1 unit.
Some math:
20 sterguard shots kill .74 more marines with rerolls to 1 to hit or wound, or with exploding 6s.
Rerolling all misses with a chapter master, or using the sternguard strat (but not the exploding 6s) kills twice as many more marines, or 1.48.
If you combine rerolls to hit or wound (but not both) of 1 and exploding 6s, you kill 1.60 more marines.
If you have exploding 6s and either the sternguard strat or a chapter master rerolling all misses (but not both) you kill 2.46 more. If you have all three you kill 4.77 more. If you add a Lt for reroll to would of 1, you kill 6.31 more. If you took out the exploding 6s, you'd be back down to 4.77, meaning that with the other auras there, the IF strat can add as much as 1.53 dead marines to the squad's firepower, which is something that other chapters don't have the ability to do.
Mandragola wrote: My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.
The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.
Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.
I have a small detachment of Imperial Fists and was keeping options open for maybe expanding them sometime in the future but was positively flabbergasted by their stratagem. Absolute and utter caca. Extra hit rolls on 6's could have worked brilliantly as their chapter tactic instead of the rather useless ignores cover they got. Maybe verging on too powerful as a passive CT but as a stratagem it's borderline useless.
My six man squad of devastator centurions with heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters would like to talk to you. 36 heavy bolter and 72 bolter shots. Even without a captain or chapter master nearby thats 1CP for 18 extra bolter shots (on average). A chapter master like Pedro nearby increases that to 24 extra shots.
24 extra shots or reroll a single dice? I'm taking the former.
All those numbers are also assuming the target isn't in cover, as IF ignore it. That ability itself already adds 1.11 dead marines to the squads shooting, bringing it from 3.333 for non IFs to 4.444 IFs as a baseline for no auras.
Mandragola wrote: My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.
The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.
Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.
I have a small detachment of Imperial Fists and was keeping options open for maybe expanding them sometime in the future but was positively flabbergasted by their stratagem. Absolute and utter caca. Extra hit rolls on 6's could have worked brilliantly as their chapter tactic instead of the rather useless ignores cover they got. Maybe verging on too powerful as a passive CT but as a stratagem it's borderline useless.
I actually think the IF CT is pretty good. You should be playing with a lot of terrain. Most infantry I've used / fought against is in cover. It's actually not that hard to get vehicles in cover of you want to, especially by using rhinos to cover other tanks that are on terrain, and the bonus is pretty meaningful . Ignoring that means you do a significant amount of damage over the norm.
IF also get one of the best warlord traits, making their infantry very durable to most anti infantry fire if they are in cover.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So mostly i just think RG are too good, mostly because of their strat being used more than once. All the others are fairly useable, even if some are less flexible in the armies they can effectively build than others are.
This.
Drop craters and terrain all over the board, scattered liberally through both deployment zones. Craters and ruins everywhere. Don't skimp, just keep dropping them. Don't forget when determining objectives to drop objectives in the middle of cover also.
Deploy a few deep striking units onto that objective, in cover. Pick one of those cover riddled deployment zones and deploy there, in cover. Move from ruin to ruin to crater to crater all game.
Enjoy a + 1 armour save all game, while denying your opponent anything. You are freaking space Marines; you start at a 3+, with an awful lot of 2+ as well.
The Imperial and Crimson fist chapter tactic is as good as you make it. I suggest going out and buying and basing a sh*t load of ruins and large craters.
So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.
But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.
I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.
Rerolls to 1 to hit or wound, or exploding 6s, increase sternguard bolters damage by 16.6% vs marines out of cover.
Rerolls to hit or +1 to wound increase it by 33.33%
Adding rerolls to hit, rerolls 1 to wound, and both strats, increases the damage to 141.9%. Without the strat that number goes to 107.4%, meaning the strat can add as much as 34.5% damage to a single squad's damage under the right circumstances.
Mandragola wrote: So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.
But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.
I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.
I figure bolter drill could be fun with those interceptors with assault bolters
or even a unit of terminators deep striking for Rapid fire 2 storm bolters up the wazoo.
Bolter Drill may not do much on a unit of 10 tacticals, but 6 Aggressors with Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets? It'll do more than some of the other chapter specific stratagems, that's for sure.
Mandragola wrote: So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.
But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.
I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.
I figure bolter drill could be fun with those interceptors with assault bolters
or even a unit of terminators deep striking for Rapid fire 2 storm bolters up the wazoo.
Since those will be deployed forward, they are less likely to benefit from a Chapter Master (Pedro is on foot), and paying the 3CP to upgrade a JP or Terminator Captain into a Chapter Master is a bit much. Still, it is a possibility. My plan for Sternguard tearing stuff up seems to be a good option though. Nothing is safe!
In other news, I just remembered that Dreadnoughts are Elites not Heavy Support, so I can get myself up to 8 CP now. So that is pretty cool. All of the Bolter Drill! Or Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship multiple times for maximum devastation.
Mandragola wrote: So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.
But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.
I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.
You can split fire in 8E remember.
I think the trick is with the Raven guard strategem is that it could backfire on you.
But I otherwise agree it should be only usable once.
Mandragola wrote: So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.
But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.
I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.
You can split fire in 8E remember.
I think the trick is with the Raven guard strategem is that it could backfire on you.
But I otherwise agree it should be only usable once.
It is definitely heavily weighed towards alpha strike, and the more you want to use it, the less CP you have for responding to the match as it carries on. You can put all your eggs in one basket here, but that isn't always the best option.
I'm willing to wait until I see it played (or play it myself) before I comment on its power, to be honest. Same with the IF Stratagem.
I dont feel like the RG one is necessarily too strong compared to the others if you have to protect yourself against that 30% (or roll off) chance of going 2nd, not to mention the more infantry you stealth deploy thats more deployments in total. As suggested above, Id pictured using it more to get short range guns in cover at 12-24", not just plant everything at 9".
But I do easily see it being used as an all in alpha strike and becoming heads I win, tails I lose, which doesnt make for fun games or a good tournament.
What role do you guys see Vanguard Veterans playing? Do you even bother deep striking with them?
Given that they have the same charge distance as terminators, I feel like both varieties of Terminators do the deep strike -> assault thing better than Vanguard vets, with normal Terminators shooting up less armored things and hopefully charging something tough, while assault terminators will liquidate anything they get into contact with. They also have much more durable armor in order to survive shooting should they fail their charges. Only thing vanguards have over them in this instance is being much cheaper and being able to assault flyers if necessary.
If I'm not deep striking with vanguards and am instead moving them up the board hopping from cover to cover, how do you end up kitting your guys, a mix of thunder hammers/lightning claws/storm shields/vanilla guys to catch bullets to take on all comers? Is it better to go all lightning claws/thunder hammers?
With the new wound allocation rules I can see the benefits of a bunch of vanilla line troopers + storm shield holders to take the hits while your expensive thunder hammers and lightning claws break through.
Vanguard have a major problem right now in that Reivers do what they do for barely anymore points and twice as many wounds unless you're opting to spend a considerable amount of fancy weapons.
So if you're going to take them you should imho play to what they are good at and load for fancy weapons galore
GAdvance wrote: Vanguard have a major problem right now in that Reivers do what they do for barely anymore points and twice as many wounds unless you're opting to spend a considerable amount of fancy weapons.
So if you're going to take them you should imho play to what they are good at and load for fancy weapons galore
VV are more mobile than Reivers, with higher movement and the ability to ignore terrain while moving. Grapnel Reivers can achieve some of the VC movement, but not quite. Still, Reivers are probably better.
I think 1 plasma pistol and 1 chainsword each is the way to go. 10 shots and 30 close combat attacks is pretty good, and anything else gets really expensive for a unit that might not make the charge.
The exception to this in my mind is Ravenguard/Black Templars, as shrike / black templars CT can let them reroll the charge, or RG can use their stratagem to get in position to charge. Only then would i consider more than a few (like 2?) Power weapons.
Just my 2 cents, but that's how i see the unit working effectively.
I'm using them as a mildly more expensive screen for Terminators but mostly to go after large blobs of targets that wouldn't work out for Scouts. I use the minimum size + Relic Blade and have moderate success.
I will use both Reivers and Vanguards (with Jumppacks) once I get my Reivers, since I consider them to do different things. They're both decent cc-units, but they handle cc differently.
Reivers are tankier than Vanguards due to having twice the number of wounds, and are better at killing hordes due to having AP1 on all their attacks.
Vanguard are faster than Reivers, and can bring specialist close combat weapons to tackle most opponents. You wouldn't really want to slam a unit of reivers into something with T8, but you'd be more than happy to slam a unit of Vanguards carrying afew Thunder Hammers into something with T8.
Now if only Honour Guards had a squadsize 2-10 instead of 2-2, I'd be able to field decent close combat army.
At least Assault Centurions seems to get a massive pointdecrease with the codex. Thank the Emperor for that, there was simply no way that I'd field 5 of them at 97 ppm.
MinscS2 wrote: I will use both Reivers and Vanguards (with Jumppacks) once I get my Reivers, since I consider them to do different things. They're both decent cc-units, but they handle cc differently.
Reivers are tankier than Vanguards due to having twice the number of wounds, and are better at killing hordes due to having AP1 on all their attacks.
Vanguard are faster than Reivers, and can bring specialist close combat weapons to tackle most opponents. You wouldn't really want to slam a unit of reivers into something with T8, but you'd be more than happy to slam a unit of Vanguards carrying afew Thunder Hammers into something with T8.
Now if only Honour Guards had a squadsize 2-10 instead of 2-2, I'd be able to field decent close combat army.
At least Assault Centurions seems to get a massive pointdecrease with the codex. Thank the Emperor for that, there was simply no way that I'd field 5 of them at 97 ppm.
MinscS2 wrote: I will use both Reivers and Vanguards (with Jumppacks) once I get my Reivers, since I consider them to do different things. They're both decent cc-units, but they handle cc differently.
Reivers are tankier than Vanguards due to having twice the number of wounds, and are better at killing hordes due to having AP1 on all their attacks.
Vanguard are faster than Reivers, and can bring specialist close combat weapons to tackle most opponents. You wouldn't really want to slam a unit of reivers into something with T8, but you'd be more than happy to slam a unit of Vanguards carrying afew Thunder Hammers into something with T8.
Now if only Honour Guards had a squadsize 2-10 instead of 2-2, I'd be able to field decent close combat army.
At least Assault Centurions seems to get a massive pointdecrease with the codex. Thank the Emperor for that, there was simply no way that I'd field 5 of them at 97 ppm.
They definitely do different things, in that vanguard have good shooting, and can kill way more stuff, whereas the reivers pretty much have to be Ravenguard to be effective, and arent that likely to kill much more than small marine squads.
Weazel wrote: I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.
I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.
If you have to set them up before the roll to seize thats a different story.
Agressors are glass cannons (notwithstanding T5, 3+ and 2 W). You dont get the 1st turn, and your forward Agressor units parked 9" away from the enemy gunline are getting deleted from the board for the cost of 1 CP each!
Idk, seize is only 1/6 chance so pretty unlikely. And for my army it would be nigh impossible to delete 30ish T5 W2 3+ models in a turn.
And it doesn't have to be Aggressors though. 5 units of assault terminators 9" away ready to beat you to a pulp is not something that's fun to face either.
I will always factor the "seize" in when I do my deployment. It happens against me in all my 3 8th Edition 40K games.
sossen wrote: Copy pasting this from the math I did in another thread:
Assuming 3+ to hit a bolt shot scores 0.67 hits, bolter drill makes each bolt shot score 0.11 extra hits.
With reroll 1's to hit this increases to 0.78 hits per shot with 0.15 extra hits from bolter drill.
With full reroll this increases to 0.89 hits per shot with 0.20 extra hits from bolter drill.
So in a unit with all Bolters and Pedro Kantor within 6", this results in a 20 percent increase in hits scored.
When firing a unit of 6 Devestator Cents (12 x Heavy Bolters and 6 x Hurricane bolters) that adds up to generating an extra 7.2 heavy bolter hits, and 14.4 bolter hits.
For the same price as a single dice re-roll thats not a bad trade-off.
sossen wrote: Copy pasting this from the math I did in another thread:
Assuming 3+ to hit a bolt shot scores 0.67 hits, bolter drill makes each bolt shot score 0.11 extra hits.
With reroll 1's to hit this increases to 0.78 hits per shot with 0.15 extra hits from bolter drill.
With full reroll this increases to 0.89 hits per shot with 0.20 extra hits from bolter drill.
So in a unit with all Bolters and Pedro Kantor within 6", this results in a 20 percent increase in hits scored.
When firing a unit of 6 Devestator Cents (12 x Heavy Bolters and 6 x Hurricane bolters) that adds up to generating an extra 7.2 heavy bolter hits, and 14.4 bolter hits.
For the same price as a single dice re-roll thats not a bad trade-off.
It isn't amazing, but it is definitely not bad, is usable, and is a buff that no other SM can get, making the IF have the best bolters around.
What do you think about the importance of going first with marines and do all the new stratagems affect that?
I watched a codex review where they said they thought it's more viable to go brigade for high CPs and go second with all the new options. I personally don't really see it. The free shots at an incoming deepstrike is great. But the rest don't really boost survivability. Or even boost combat power to the extent I'd be totally okay letting myself get alpha striked to have them.
...Though, admittedly, despite wanting to go first, if I stick to my 0 Stormraven list plan, I'm looking at 9-11 drops easy, so moderate chance I'll be going second anyways. Going full brigade for +6 CPs in that case has some appeal....Hmm, I think this gets back to my earlier comment, that RG stratagem might seem OP, but if you take an army full of infantry to stealth up, you're drastically cutting your odds of going first and being able to capitalize on it to an OP extent.
Melissia wrote: Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?
Now I want to use terminators even more
Hellblasters went down to 165 pts per squad from 190 pts. Inceptors are down to 180 pts from 225 pts. Pretty damn good as well.
A base Terminators Squad costs 192 pts down from 224 pts. That is a hefty drop. The squad I would run(Assault Cannon and otherwise normal) dropped from 243 pts to 211 pts. That is hard not to want to try.
Melissia wrote: Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?
Now I want to use terminators even more
yeah, really looking forward to that, almost tempted to build a "first company" force to accompany my Primaris Marines
Melissia wrote: Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?
Now I want to use terminators even more
yeah, really looking forward to that, almost tempted to build a "first company" force to accompany my Primaris Marines
Well, I recently obtained a force of 20 scouts, 5 tactical terminators, 10 assault terminators, and a terminator captain. All I have to do is buy a termie librarian and chaplain, and my force is complete... but now I think I'll be able to give all my scouts cloaks, too.
Gibs55 wrote: Has anyone taken their Fellblade for a run now that Forge World FAQ the Relic rules?
I was trying to build a list around one, however at 750 points it is a rather massive investment!
Keen to hear how others are making use of them?
I've been using a Fellblade lately. When adequately screened it's been just about unkillable. Having plenty of reserve drops in a list helps it get deployed into a good postion with sight lines on the enemy force. It really dominates in games that start with Hammer and Anvil or similar deployments as it lets you fully utilise your weapons long range advantage to neutralise enemy armour before it can engage. I'm running mine at 717 points(Fellblade Accelerator Cannon,Demolisher,2xQuad Lascannon) in a 1500 point list. If I run into a horde list it will cost me the game unlike Imperial Guard superheavies that can go crazy with heavy flamer sponsons. Against everything else its death on legs with T9,26W and a 2+ save. Taking it to a tournament on Saturday so I'' have a better idea whether its an unstoppable murder machine or "all my eggs in one basket" after then.
Melissia wrote: Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?
Now I want to use terminators even more
Hellblasters went down to 165 pts per squad from 190 pts. Inceptors are down to 180 pts from 225 pts. Pretty damn good as well.
A base Terminators Squad costs 192 pts down from 224 pts. That is a hefty drop. The squad I would run(Assault Cannon and otherwise normal) dropped from 243 pts to 211 pts. That is hard not to want to try.
Pretty good to deep-strike onto objectives and just sit them there.
With the new rules for CF - they will be in cover (the board will be littered with it, and objectives will be placed in it) and only 1 needs to survive to claim the objective.
Gibs55 wrote: Has anyone taken their Fellblade for a run now that Forge World FAQ the Relic rules?
I was trying to build a list around one, however at 750 points it is a rather massive investment!
Keen to hear how others are making use of them?
I've been using a Fellblade lately. When adequately screened it's been just about unkillable. Having plenty of reserve drops in a list helps it get deployed into a good postion with sight lines on the enemy force. It really dominates in games that start with Hammer and Anvil or similar deployments as it lets you fully utilise your weapons long range advantage to neutralise enemy armour before it can engage. I'm running mine at 717 points(Fellblade Accelerator Cannon,Demolisher,2xQuad Lascannon) in a 1500 point list. If I run into a horde list it will cost me the game unlike Imperial Guard superheavies that can go crazy with heavy flamer sponsons. Against everything else its death on legs with T9,26W and a 2+ save. Taking it to a tournament on Saturday so I'' have a better idea whether its an unstoppable murder machine or "all my eggs in one basket" after then.
Thanks!
Out of curiosity what are you running in the rest of your list to support it?
Looking at it, using new reduced-points-price C:SM unit cards, I will save...
28 points on thunder hammers, 8 points on lightning claws, 17 on the captain, 2 on the librarian, leaving me with 70 points... 60 to give all my scouts camo, and ten points to spare on upgrades, but not much to really spend it on except for maybe a combiflamer that I'd have a hard time modeling on my captain or librarian.
I suppose I could give the bolter-scout sarge a hand flamer? Or paint the combat knife as a power sword.
Alternatively could skip the cloaks on the bolter squad and give him a power sword and inferno pistol in the vain hope he might amount to something in close combat.
Are people finding scout squads to be useful? I love the idea of them, despite playing GK (oops). Are shotguns meaningful?
I'm considering adding 3x 5x scouts. They're 70 points when I give the sgt. A plasma gun. That feels really good with their deployment rules.
What has been your experience with them?
I was disappointed when I realized Telion gave them +1 to hit, not +1 to wound. Was hoping to use him with sniper rifle mortal wounds. Has anyone brought Telion? I think his fluff is awesome.
Bigfashizzel wrote: Are people finding scout squads to be useful? I love the idea of them, despite playing GK (oops). Are shotguns meaningful?
I'm considering adding 3x 5x scouts. They're 70 points when I give the sgt. A plasma gun. That feels really good with their deployment rules.
What has been your experience with them?
I was disappointed when I realized Telion gave them +1 to hit, not +1 to wound. Was hoping to use him with sniper rifle mortal wounds. Has anyone brought Telion? I think his fluff is awesome.
You do mean a Plasma Pistol, not Plasma Gun, right?
bort wrote: ...Though, admittedly, despite wanting to go first, if I stick to my 0 Stormraven list plan, I'm looking at 9-11 drops
Sounds pretty easy to table with the new FAQ.
A few deepstriking uints and some good shooting and you could be left with nothing but fliers (and lose instantly).
Reverse that. I dont have Stormravens, so my original worry was my 9-11 drop list running in to lots of lists packed in to only 4-5 Stormraven drops and forcing me to go 2nd. Now thats less likely. Well, or they pack in to 4 Landraiders instead. :p.
Hospy wrote: What role do you guys see Vanguard Veterans playing? Do you even bother deep striking with them?
Given that they have the same charge distance as terminators, I feel like both varieties of Terminators do the deep strike -> assault thing better than Vanguard vets, with normal Terminators shooting up less armored things and hopefully charging something tough, while assault terminators will liquidate anything they get into contact with. They also have much more durable armor in order to survive shooting should they fail their charges. Only thing vanguards have over them in this instance is being much cheaper and being able to assault flyers if necessary.
If I'm not deep striking with vanguards and am instead moving them up the board hopping from cover to cover, how do you end up kitting your guys, a mix of thunder hammers/lightning claws/storm shields/vanilla guys to catch bullets to take on all comers? Is it better to go all lightning claws/thunder hammers?
With the new wound allocation rules I can see the benefits of a bunch of vanilla line troopers + storm shield holders to take the hits while your expensive thunder hammers and lightning claws break through.
The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support
Hospy wrote: What role do you guys see Vanguard Veterans playing? Do you even bother deep striking with them?
Given that they have the same charge distance as terminators, I feel like both varieties of Terminators do the deep strike -> assault thing better than Vanguard vets, with normal Terminators shooting up less armored things and hopefully charging something tough, while assault terminators will liquidate anything they get into contact with. They also have much more durable armor in order to survive shooting should they fail their charges. Only thing vanguards have over them in this instance is being much cheaper and being able to assault flyers if necessary.
If I'm not deep striking with vanguards and am instead moving them up the board hopping from cover to cover, how do you end up kitting your guys, a mix of thunder hammers/lightning claws/storm shields/vanilla guys to catch bullets to take on all comers? Is it better to go all lightning claws/thunder hammers?
With the new wound allocation rules I can see the benefits of a bunch of vanilla line troopers + storm shield holders to take the hits while your expensive thunder hammers and lightning claws break through.
The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support
I'd never thought of dual wielding plasma pistol VV before... it looks like the sergeant can only take 1, but the rest can take 2, so that's 9 plasma pistol shots deep-striking. Worth jumping in a captain with them for overcharge potential at that points investment I'd say.
I like them with plasma pistols/power swords as well for some more flexibility depending on the rest of your list.
It seems like double plasma pistol Vanguard Veterans would be better than Drop Pod Sternguard with Combi Plasma. Same number of plasma shots, but a lot cheaper. The added bonus of being able to shoot in CC is good as well.
stratigo wrote: The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support
I like this concept a lot, and have been considering that as a unit to take in my Raptors chapter (Raven Guard). Have you tried the vanguard plasma drop?
Anyone else playing Raptors, what are you having Lias Issodon sneak in with? I'm thinking devastators.
Did anyone else notice the +15 PPM base to Centurion Devastators? I was actually fielding two units of these guys, but now I have to rotate out an Assassin to afford the price bump. Anyone think they're worth it at the new PPM?
Audustum wrote: Did anyone else notice the +15 PPM base to Centurion Devastators? I was actually fielding two units of these guys, but now I have to rotate out an Assassin to afford the price bump. Anyone think they're worth it at the new PPM?
Oh man, those were pricey to begin with, albeit pretty badass. What kind of list are you running? If you have a more defensive list I think just regular Devastators is probably better. You can have 2 regular Dev Squads for the price of 1 Cent Dev squad, probably with some points to spare.
But their ability to move & shoot is excellent if your list is frequently moving up the table, imo.
Though, I might not know what I'm talking about, lol.
stratigo wrote: The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support
I like this concept a lot, and have been considering that as a unit to take in my Raptors chapter (Raven Guard). Have you tried the vanguard plasma drop?
Anyone else playing Raptors, what are you having Lias Issodon sneak in with? I'm thinking devastators.
I have both used it and had it used against me. It's done well every time I use it, though I did eventually drop the unit from my lists as it was the only thing I had dropping in. But they've wreaked havoc against me as well against a blood angel player who had a more drop in focused army.
They're a very good unit to use. And much cheaper than sternguard with a drop pod. Like, MUCH cheaper. Sternguard are still great though, I actually like them with their special issues more than plasma, as I've started using hellblasters (who I dropped the VV vets for. I run G man, or calgar, so keeping my units in a small area for reroll benefits is big for me)
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Audustum wrote: Did anyone else notice the +15 PPM base to Centurion Devastators? I was actually fielding two units of these guys, but now I have to rotate out an Assassin to afford the price bump. Anyone think they're worth it at the new PPM?
Desubot wrote:Would it be worth using up the vanguards to drop in plasma that way vs a sternguard with plasma/combi
considering the killshot strat
otherwise there is the new intercepter with the hand plasma cannons.
casvalremdeikun wrote:It seems like double plasma pistol Vanguard Veterans would be better than Drop Pod Sternguard with Combi Plasma. Same number of plasma shots, but a lot cheaper. The added bonus of being able to shoot in CC is good as well.
I'm waiting until we see the full cost of a squad of plasma pistol Vanguard Vets vs the Plasma Inceptors. Weighing the point cost difference with difference in firepower, difference in durability, etc. Something tells me that the Vanguard Vets will be the cheaper, more reliable option, whereas the Inceptors will be riskier but with higher rewards in terms of returns in the firepower you get on the drop. I tried out plasma pistol Vanguard Vets twice thus far and both times they performed exceptionally well. But something tells me that this is a tactic that only works once. After that, your opponent will work to counter that strategy.
Here's the loadout I used-
1 Captain with Jump Pack, Grav Pistol, Power Sword 106 pts
5 man VV, 8 Plasma Pistols, Gave Sergeant a Plasma Pistol and Power Sword (total of 9 Plasma Pistol shots) 157pts
So that's 9 Plasma shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling ones. I personally would probably switch out the Grav Pistol for a Plasma Pistol (only overcharging in emergencies) or a Storm bolter. So lets say 10 plasma pistol shots.
-9 (+1) Plasma shots at a max of 12'' range, hitting on 3's, re-rolling ones
-deep striking
-3+ armor save, T4 1 wound each for total of 5 on the squad
-12'' move
-shooting into combat/in combat
-decent combat ability with the sarge's power sword, 2 attacks on the vets and 3 for sarge
All for 253 points.
Not bad honestly.
Then we have the Inceptors. 6 D3 shots, so average of 12, potential for 18 shots. Lets assume the same Captain loadout as before, and assume average shots on the D3s.
-12 (+1 for the Captain) Plasma shots 18'' range
-hitting on 3's, re-rolling ones,
-deep striking,
-3+ armor save, T5 with 2 wounds on each regular Inceptor, 3 for the sarge, for a total of 7 wounds for the squad,
-10'' move on the Inceptors (still 12 on the Captain)
-no shooting into/in combats, instead you get the assault profile, so -1 to hit in exchange for advancing and shooting. You probably won't be overcharging when you do this.
-In my opinion, they have sub par combat ability. 2 attacks for each inceptor, 3 for sarge, no power weapon options. If you get the charge you can cause mortal wounds, but it will be a rare occurrence.
Likely to be around 220 points for the unit if not more. Add the Captain and you get a grand total of ~330 points, Land Raider territory.
Is the point cost increase worth the ability to advance and shoot? +1 toughness? +2 wounds for the squad? Losing the ability to shoot into/in combats really hurts. Thoughts?
stratigo wrote: The best source of drop in plasma. If you want to play a deep strike army, you want duel plasma pistol vanguards as a support
I like this concept a lot, and have been considering that as a unit to take in my Raptors chapter (Raven Guard). Have you tried the vanguard plasma drop?
Anyone else playing Raptors, what are you having Lias Issodon sneak in with? I'm thinking devastators.
His condition is non-Terminator right?
Assault Centurions are perfect here. They are getting a hefty point cut in the codex upcoming, so you can get there and blast away several Bolter shots and Melta shots.
Assault Centurions are perfect here. They are getting a hefty point cut in the codex upcoming, so you can get there and blast away several Bolter shots and Melta shots.
Unfortunately, his condition is non-Terminator, non-Centurion, non-primaris. You could make those units infiltrate with the Raven Guard 1cp stratagem, but not Lias Issodon.
I have considered:
10 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 194p (any devastator variant could swap in one multi-melta to use for a ammo cherub double-shot within 12", +17 for upgrading HB to MM)
10 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 177p
8 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, 3 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 151p (slightly budget version, still has bullet catchers)
5 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 112p (maximum budget version)
10 assault marines, 3 plasma pistols, no jump packs - 151p (costs less than 10 assault marines with no weapons and yes jump packs)
10 sternguard, special issue bolters - 190p (will be 180p in new codex)
Tactical marines seem like there is no reason you would want to send them along with Issodon, but maybe the Defenders of Humanity Objective Secured thing will change things in a big way. Really though, at a loss for what to take. Maybe:
10 sternguard, special issue bolters - 190p (will be 180p in new codex)
8 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 168p
8 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 168p
516p for 36 marines, just about 14.3 points each so not too expensive, for all of them together. I'm in the process of modeling my army so the "deciding" stage is important for me to know what to glue together!
Assault Centurions are perfect here. They are getting a hefty point cut in the codex upcoming, so you can get there and blast away several Bolter shots and Melta shots.
Unfortunately, his condition is non-Terminator, non-Centurion, non-primaris. You could make those units infiltrate with the Raven Guard 1cp stratagem, but not Lias Issodon.
I have considered:
10 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 194p (any devastator variant could swap in one multi-melta to use for a ammo cherub double-shot within 12", +17 for upgrading HB to MM)
10 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 177p
8 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, 3 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 151p (slightly budget version, still has bullet catchers)
5 devastators, 4 heavy bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 112p (maximum budget version)
10 assault marines, 3 plasma pistols, no jump packs - 151p (costs less than 10 assault marines with no weapons and yes jump packs)
10 sternguard, special issue bolters - 190p (will be 180p in new codex)
Tactical marines seem like there is no reason you would want to send them along with Issodon, but maybe the Defenders of Humanity Objective Secured thing will change things in a big way. Really though, at a loss for what to take. Maybe:
10 sternguard, special issue bolters - 190p (will be 180p in new codex)
8 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 168p
8 devastators, 3 heavy bolters, multi melta, 5 bolters, storm bolter, ammo cherub - 168p
516p for 36 marines, just about 14.3 points each so not too expensive, for all of them together. I'm in the process of modeling my army so the "deciding" stage is important for me to know what to glue together!
I'd say Sterngaurd and Multi-Melta Devastators are your best bet.
I don't know if this was ever discussed, but they dropped the points of the Vindicator by 25 pts. It is still overpriced for what it does (sadly, I REALLY want to run one), but a little less so now.
Tried out a 600pt game tonight, using the new rules and Iron Hands chapter tactics. Three squads of regular Marines with Plasma and Combi-Plasma, a Rhino, two Company Veterans with axes and Storm Bolters, a Captain with an axe and a Storm Shield, and a Librarian. Gave the Librarian the Armor Indomnitus, and once I saw my opponent's list I spent three of my six Command Points to give my Captain the Axe of Medusa and make him into a Chapter Master. (The Chapter Master thing I was gonna do anyways, but I was waiting to see their list before deciding on what relics I took, because if he had lots of multi-damage weapons and not a lot of durability I would have gone for the Shield Eternal instead.)
My opponent basically brought a bunch of starter set Death Guard - That one Psyker guy, the Lord of Contagion, a Feotid Blight Drone, twenty Poxwalkers, and eight Plague Marines with a couple plasma guns and a power fist in there for good measure.
And lemme just say: Loving the flexibility that Command Points and strategems offer mid-game. Being able to tailor my Psychic Powers, Warlord Traits, and even partly my wargear and unit options just before the game starts is great. If I'd thought I was going to have to split up my army heavily in order to get objectives, I could have saved Command Points and not taken a Warlord. I was able to choose the relics that were most useful in the specific context of that game. I was able to precisely choose which Psychic Powers I thought would be most beneficial.
(Also: Loving that buildabear Chapter Masters are back in some fashion, even if that fashion costs Command Points. And getting a Chapter Master with 6 wounds, a 3+ invuln, and two sets of 6+ FNP is really great.)
I won, mostly because my Bolters were enough to deal with his poxwalkers, and thanks to all the rerolls on my Plasma I was able to knock out his heavier stuff pretty reliably. The Axe of Medusa is a pretty good CC weapon and generally better than Relic Blades for its reliability, and allowed me to effectively win most combats in a couple turns when comboed with his very high durability.
Weazel wrote: Hold on, you buy upgrades with command points?
You can upgrade your Captain to a Chapter Master, and you can upgrade a couple of weapons or various other things (one or two) to Relics. (One relic for free if your Warlord is a Space Marine, and then one for a Command Point or two for three Command Points.) Since those relics are much better than the base gear and can drastically change a characters role - For example, swapping the dinky Power Axe in for a better Relic Blade - it's pretty great.
Weazel wrote: Hold on, you buy upgrades with command points?
You can upgrade your Captain to a Chapter Master, and you can upgrade a couple of weapons or various other things (one or two) to Relics. (One relic for free if your Warlord is a Space Marine, and then one for a Command Point or two for three Command Points.) Since those relics are much better than the base gear and can drastically change a characters role - For example, swapping the dinky Power Axe in for a better Relic Blade - it's pretty great.
Weazel wrote: Hold on, you buy upgrades with command points?
You can upgrade your Captain to a Chapter Master, and you can upgrade a couple of weapons or various other things (one or two) to Relics. (One relic for free if your Warlord is a Space Marine, and then one for a Command Point or two for three Command Points.) Since those relics are much better than the base gear and can drastically change a characters role - For example, swapping the dinky Power Axe in for a better Relic Blade - it's pretty great.
Cool, didn't spot this anywhere before.
I'm not entirely sure it's intended, given GW's recent track record of completely missing major implications or just major thing in general about the rules that they write. It's possible that they'll FAQ things so that you have to pick relics and Chapter Master upgrades when writing your list or something, but at the moment, I'm loving the versatility and options. It really makes it feel like 'Command Points' are living up to their name by giving players dynamic control of their army rather than making the game a 'Who writes the better list/who gets first turn' competition.
I don't know if this was ever discussed, but they dropped the points of the Vindicator by 25 pts. It is still overpriced for what it does (sadly, I REALLY want to run one), but a little less so now.
Nice, let's do a rundown, comparing the Index with the Codex.
New units/weapons aren't mentioned.
HQ:
Captain in Terminator Armour: -17 pts
Librarian in Terminator Armour: -2 pts
Techmarine: -13 pts
Removed:
Chaplain on Bike.
Librarian on Bike.
Techmarine on Bike.
Land Raider Excelsior.
Rhino Primaris.
Removed:
Apothecary on Bike.
Company Ancient on Bike.
Company Champion on Bike.
Company Veterans on Bikes.
Damned Legionnaires.
Imperial Cpace Marine.
Tyrannic War Veterans.
Fast Attack: Attack Bikes: -10 pts
Bikes: -6 pts
Inceptors: -15 pts
Land Speeders: -10 pts
Scout Bikes: -2 pts
I think that's all, please correct me if I wrote something wrong.
Thoughts on changes.
RIP everything that doesn't have a model, basically.
RIP various bikers, RIP Rifle-Dread, RIP Las/Plas and Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks, RIP AA Calgar, and worst of all.... RIP Conversion Beamer.
Devastator Centurions going up by 15 ppm is also a pity, and quite strange. They where already overpriced. Now they're probably hitting the shelf for my part, I just can't see myself running them with Hurricane Bolters and Grav Cannons for 112 ppm...
On the Flipside, yay for pointreductions!
That powerfist change can be quite massive, a 5 man tactical terminator squad is now 32 pts cheaper, and a 10 man is 72 pts cheaper. Eventough I use alot of Thunder Hammers, I'm glad the PF and the TH doesn't cost the same amount on non-characters anymore, that just felt stupid: Do you want Damage D3 or Damage 3 for the same price? Hmmm....
Landspeeders might be viable, at least with 2 Heavy Flamers.
As an avid fan of Assault Centurions, that change makes me really happy. They went from stupidly overpriced to "alright".
As a fan of the Ironclad, that change makes me go "ehh?". I guess it was alittle overpriced perhaps, but not by 40 pts. I'm gonna feel dirty fielding it now.
Big winner in the tank-department are the Vindicator and the Hunter.
The Vindicator dropped a whopping 25 pts in price, so now you'll have a T8 tank with a Demo Cannon for the low price of 135 pts, quite the steal.
The Hunter meanwhile, didn't drop in price, but it's weapon became free, so it went down to 90 pts...for a T8 tank? Wut!? 90 Points for a old-school twinlinked Lascannon also seems like a steal.
The changes to the TFC seem strange (the changes, not the result), but if my math is correct, the whole kit, Gunner and all, will have dropped by 13 pts. A needed change, but if the rules are still the same, I'd still rate the TFC as meh, especially with the Whirlwind becoming cheaper as well.
Hopefully they will adjust all other users of these weapons in next faq.
Yeah, it'd be nice for us scrubs who play things like Blood Angels to get the points reductions while still using our Index. Don't want to have to buy the Marines Codex just to get a few points reductions until we get ours.
Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.
The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.
bort wrote: Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.
The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.
Yeah it sucks for people that do conversions.
as to price drops..... hard to tell. the ironclads i though were fine for the most part.
unless i missed a price increase on some sort of weapon im not sure why they got a cut.
bort wrote: Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.
The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.
It hurts nobody because those are still viable options in the Index and can still be used. It sucks only for people who do not want to carry a second book, and the only thing I can say to these people is "cry some more'.
Nobody is hurt. Nobody loses anything. Not right now.
It hurts nobody because those are still viable options in the Index and can still be used. It sucks only for people who do not want to carry a second book, and the only thing I can say to these people is "cry some more'.
Nobody is hurt. Nobody loses anything. Not right now.
Wait, youre saying its legal to mix and match with Index units? I guess I'm still thinking old style where 1 entry replaces the other. For cut units this is easy enough, add back a vet biker squad for example. Autocannon dreads seems weirder. Youve got 2 different entries with different legal arms.
bort wrote: Wait, youre saying its legal to mix and match with Index units? I guess I'm still thinking old style where 1 entry replaces the other. For cut units this is easy enough, add back a vet biker squad for example. Autocannon dreads seems weirder. Youve got 2 different entries with different legal arms.
Yes, GW has been quite explicit about this:
"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
Melissia wrote: Right. GW is doing a far more permissive set of rules for what you can take this time.
And I love them for it.
Meh. They're 'Permitting' you to use rules from two books that used to just come in a single convenient package. If you don't have Battlescribe, trying to collate the rules and point-value differences between the two books when writing a list would be a huge pain in the butt.
Like... Other than a few tiny outliers that had rules from special releases (The Command Tanks, Imperial Space Marine, etc,) most of the stuff that is now cut from the index are models and units that have had rules for a really long time. It's never been a problem, for example, to have a Command Squad on bikes in the main codex, or to make Rifleman dreads a legal option, or to have both versions of Marneus Calgar listed next to each other, for players to decide which they want.
Games Workshop cut these options from the codex and is now 'Permitting' you to use an older book to fill in the gaps.
(Also, it's worth noting that a couple of these options had their non-bike version reduced in points, meaning that the biker versions are now overcosted pretty significantly. If I'm to believe that GW genuinely thinks a Techmarine should be 13pts cheaper and a Company Chamption should be 16pts cheaper, then that means their biker versions are now 13 and 16pts overcosted, respectively. Heck - Calgar in Artificer Armor now costs MORE than his Terminator equivalent by 35pts, despite being worse in almost every regard. (He's 1" faster and fits in some transports more easily. That's it.)
Melissia wrote: I view it as no different from needing forgeworld in order to use forgeworld units.
Except that these aren't Forgeworld units. They are Games Workshop units, that have had rules in the main Games Workshop codex for as long as I've been playing the game. (The beginning of 5th, for context.) These aren't massively different units with their own specialist kits and developers, these are different wargear sets and mounting options being axed from the main Codex for no reason at all, that they've been able to include without problem for decades.
It's made worse by my aforementioned issue with the points, effectively dooming many of these options to noncompetetive armies only, because they're all pointlessly overcosted now.
bort wrote: Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.
The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.
It hurts nobody because those are still viable options in the Index and can still be used. It sucks only for people who do not want to carry a second book, and the only thing I can say to these people is "cry some more'.
Nobody is hurt. Nobody loses anything. Not right now.
It's obvious they are setting up to phase those units out and you're crazy if you don't think that's the plan. And the biggest problem is that those units aren't just conversions, They are old models, and the implication is really ominous.
bort wrote: Wait, youre saying its legal to mix and match with Index units? I guess I'm still thinking old style where 1 entry replaces the other. For cut units this is easy enough, add back a vet biker squad for example. Autocannon dreads seems weirder. Youve got 2 different entries with different legal arms.
Yes, GW has been quite explicit about this:
"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
Slightly confused so do you use the revised Codex points cost for Power Fists if a legacy unit has one or the Index cost assuming they don't all update the points costs of Power Fists acorss ALL indexes as they should.
Well, thats good. Will be confusing in a few years when theres more books and releases out, but good. Hopefully they, or someone, makes a reference list with all the legal units and which book(s) to look in for wargear options. As well as a cost precedence guide once theres more than 2 books.
And so, woo, so I can still run my 20 year old svelte Calgar in artificer model if Im okay with overpaying.
bort wrote: Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.
The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.
It hurts nobody because those are still viable options in the Index and can still be used. It sucks only for people who do not want to carry a second book, and the only thing I can say to these people is "cry some more'.
Nobody is hurt. Nobody loses anything. Not right now.
It's obvious they are setting up to phase those units out and you're crazy if you don't think that's the plan. And the biggest problem is that those units aren't just conversions, They are old models, and the implication is really ominous.
Then don't let it happen. Whining here is not going to do anything, but any attempt to do so you should make a big deal on Facebook or something. I'd be willing to do that if I used it.
If the unit/configuration has new rules, you need to use them. If the unit/configuration is only in the Index, you can still use the unit, but you have to use the points outlined in the Index. They'll still get Chapter Tactics though, and they're still 100% legitimate.
So yes, you can still take dudes on bikes, rifleman dreads and las/plas razorbacks. You can mix them with the new codex units and everything is kosher.
It's annoying that you have to use multiple books, but there's nothing wrong with it.
wtwlf123 wrote: If the unit/configuration has new rules, you need to use them. If the unit/configuration is only in the Index, you can still use the unit, but you have to use the points outlined in the Index. They'll still get Chapter Tactics though, and they're still 100% legitimate.
So yes, you can still take dudes on bikes, rifleman dreads and las/plas razorbacks. You can mix them with the new codex units and everything is kosher.
It's annoying that you have to use multiple books, but there's nothing wrong with it.
Thankyou for answering every question I had. You are awsome.
I feel like they should have had an extra section in the back for Out Of Production Units or something. Either way, at least they aren't being phased out for the time being and I doubt they'd attempt that for a long time yet as they'd risk losing some of their market.
Is the Thunder Hamm also -5 for characters?
Vindicators also got a bit of a buff in one of the Stratagems. Predators are still a bit too pricey compared to Lasorbacks for me, but appreciate them being an ok option now.
Also I have a question unrelated to the new codex:
What is the best deep strike blocker / screen unit to bubble wrap around a few Devastator Squads w/ characters? I am thinking bolter scout squads of 5 and also possibly a squad of scout bikes due to their Stratagem ability to fall back and use Cluster Mines (causing D3 mortal wounds) to cluster f the enemy. Would that be very effective though? Or should I guard them with something beefier like a dreadnought along with scouts? Should I be wrapping them in more flamers -landspeeder double heavy flamer style perhaps?
I think 10 scouts and a couple rhinos are good enough at blocking deep strike if you also take advantage of a board edge. Just deploy them far enough away from other units so things can't get consolidated on if the enemy does get a charge off. Then murder everything that dropped during the next turn.
jcd386 wrote: I think 10 scouts and a couple rhinos are good enough at blocking deep strike if you also take advantage of a board edge. Just deploy them far enough away from other units so things can't get consolidated on if the enemy does get a charge off. Then murder everything that dropped during the next turn.
using a Rhino is an interesting idea. though a Razorback with twin heavy bolters is 84p, only 10p more than a Rhino (with 2 SB's), so I find it hard to justify using Rhinos. On that note, I wonder if a Stalker might be a decent blocker too, I think it's only 90p(?) now and could be a solid defensive unit if they don't deal with it.
I can't seem to find a cost for the auxillary grenade launcher on the intercessors. I remember reading somewhere it cost 4pts, but can't see it anywhere.....is it free?
Yes, it is fired exactly as a grenade but with 30" range so you forego other shooting for that model.
The question is - I don't have the book so can't double check - if you have two grenade launchers can you fire twice? The obvious answer is yes, but only one grenade can be thrown per squad.
mongoosecat200 wrote: I can't seem to find a cost for the auxillary grenade launcher on the intercessors. I remember reading somewhere it cost 4pts, but can't see it anywhere.....is it free?
I have seen it in the french video showcasing codex space marines. Lance-grenades auxiliaire costing 4 points, same name in the intercessor entry.
I bought a box of Reivers and I caved and bought the Redemptor too.
I can't decide how to equip the Reivers though, choosing between grapnel and grav is difficult. I think the melee variant is better, but I will probably still build one five mans squad of each type. I think the shooty ones are fine with grav. I plan to use them to drop on an objective and camp it. The melee guys seem to benefit from grapnel more, as it presumably also applies to charge moves (it does, right?) However, being able to deep strive wherever you want is a serious advantage. Would it be totally crazy to give the melee guys both?
Crimson wrote: I bought a box of Reivers and I caved and bought the Redemptor too.
I can't decide how to equip the Reivers though, choosing between grapnel and grav is difficult. I think the melee variant is better, but I will probably still build one five mans squad of each type. I think the shooty ones are fine with grav. I plan to use them to drop on an objective and camp it. The melee guys seem to benefit from grapnel more, as it presumably also applies to charge moves (it does, right?) However, being able to deep strive wherever you want is a serious advantage. Would it be totally crazy to give the melee guys both?
I see 0 reason to do grapple. you spend 2 points a guy so they can move up and down terrain basically ingoreing it. Melee is better with grav as you can deepstrike then charge.
BUT
Either way they are terrible. 3 attacks with no save penalty is garbage. If it had -1 to it even id be all onboard. I realise that fluff does not = game rules, but it should be close. they talk how they murder in CC and their blades have an anti energy field on them like a powersword.
also terrible they cant toss the grenade or take a launcher to stun an opponent before charging after deepstrike. That would also make them useful.
Cool models, but I don't see myself taking the 10 I build and painted more then the single game ive used them.
Yes, it is fired exactly as a grenade but with 30" range so you forego other shooting for that model.
The question is - I don't have the book so can't double check - if you have two grenade launchers can you fire twice? The obvious answer is yes, but only one grenade can be thrown per squad.
I think the more obvious answer is no, it cannot, because it doesn't change the weapon type - just the range. The only use for grabbing two is to combat squad them.
I just noticed something... Intercessors are supposed to be able to take and auxiliary grenade launcher per 5 models, but there is no points cost associated with it in the points cost list (as it is not an astartes grenade launcher...
For 5 points you get marines with better bolter, 2 hp, extra attack. They are just not the close combat unit they make you think it is. It's a shootout unit with assault capability.
The biggest thing is, as far as troops choices go, intercessors are the most efficient source of wounds in any MEQ book that I can find. More efficient than scouts even by one point per wound (ten scout wounds are 110 points minimum; ten intercessor wounds are 100 points) while having a better armor save, but a slight weakness to multi-damage weapons (compared to scouts being weaker to AP weapons)
So have them sit on objectives and take shots at whoever they can. If they're absorbing fire, they're doing their job. If they're not absorbing fire but are on objectives, they're still doing their job. It's a win-win.
At least they're not terrible with damage output. What ARE the stats for their grenade launchers? I'd like to know so that I can prepare my non-Primaris Marines (because I like the rules but not the models) with a similar weapon or not.
Does FW provide grenade launchers for regular Astartes?
The grenade launcher extends the range of the regular grenades to 30''. It's basically an underslung grenade launcher for a bolt weapon. Their firepower is definitely lacking. I would only bring them with bolt rifles to camp objectives.
Note that the only reason to take Intercessors with auto bolt rifles is if you need them to be Troops - Reivers with bolt carbines have the same offensive stats, better grenades and sidearm, and special rules that can penalize enemy morale.
Reivers are also 3 points cheaper per model without a movement upgrade and 1 point cheaper per model with one - so they seem to outclass the auto bolt rifle troops rather heavily!
Kingsley wrote: Note that the only reason to take Intercessors with auto bolt rifles is if you need them to be Troops - Reivers with bolt carbines have the same offensive stats, better grenades and sidearm, and special rules that can penalize enemy morale.
Reivers are also 3 points cheaper per model without a movement upgrade and 1 point cheaper per model with one - so they seem to outclass the auto bolt rifle troops rather heavily!
Yeah... This is just perplexing. I think that autobolt rifles were supposed to have better stats than they ended up with and at some point someone fethed up. If they had AP -1 things would make much more sense.
Either way they are terrible. 3 attacks with no save penalty is garbage. If it had -1 to it even id be all onboard. I realise that fluff does not = game rules, but it should be close. they talk how they murder in CC and their blades have an anti energy field on them like a powersword.
Am I missing something? Doesn't Reivers have AP -1 on their combat blades? I recall the leaked dataslate showing them as AP -1.
wtwlf123 wrote:Looks like the new Codex also eliminated 2x Heavy Flamer and 2x Multi-Melta Land Speeders...
Have to default back to the Index points costs on those arrangements as well. :(
wtwlf123 wrote: I'm looking at it. It's true. If you want to take a Land Speeder with double special weapons, you'll have to pay the "tax" of using the Index points.
Damn, then it just plain sucks. Thought I finally had found a use for my Land Speeders this edition.
