You can still use 'em, you just have to use the points cost outlined in the Index (which is 10 points higher than the cost in the Codex).
Edit: Also, Sergeants can't take Combi-Gravs anymore. The option is just gone. I assume that'll get fixed in an upcoming FAQ, rather than it being intentional ...but you never know.
Either way they are terrible. 3 attacks with no save penalty is garbage. If it had -1 to it even id be all onboard. I realise that fluff does not = game rules, but it should be close. they talk how they murder in CC and their blades have an anti energy field on them like a powersword.
Am I missing something? Doesn't Reivers have AP -1 on their combat blades? I recall the leaked dataslate showing them as AP -1.
wtwlf123 wrote:Looks like the new Codex also eliminated 2x Heavy Flamer and 2x Multi-Melta Land Speeders...
Have to default back to the Index points costs on those arrangements as well. :(
Awww that sucks if it's true.
There is 0 ap on it. It's just a combat blade.
Also for grenades better to take 2 and combat squad so you only use 1 activation for 2 guys and get to shoot both grenades.
As for people saying reivers are just better, they are not troops so you loose out on auto winning objectives as marine troops get that, not elites. No intercessors are not great but a grenade launcher gives them something to camp objectives with
wtwlf123 wrote: I'm looking at it. It's true. If you want to take a Land Speeder with double special weapons, you'll have to pay the "tax" of using the Index points.
Damn, then it just plain sucks. Thought I finally had found a use for my Land Speeders this edition.
Guess they're going back to the shelf.
Wait, ugh, I thought from the FAQ quote like 2 pages back, if you take a unit that is in both books, like a land speeder, you pay the most recent pricing of the unit and the weapons (ie from the codex), but can use the index loadout. Meanwhile, units that don't appear at all in the codex use the index point cost, even if their similar unit was reduced in cost. Ex: Bikers got reduced, veteran bikers don't exist, so vet bikers have to pay index price.
Yes? No?
I had planned to use a Storm with an AC, which I understand is not a codex wargear option, but Storms are -10pts in the codex. I'm not going to bother if I have to pay the 10pt tax to get the option to pay 11 more pts for the AC upgrade.
It's been interpreted both ways. The most recent place where that unit has been available with that wargear was the Index, so you'd use Index points for the entire unit.
I'd be happy to be wrong, but the local GW store manager and I read the Codex FAQ that way.
wtwlf123 wrote: I'm looking at it. It's true. If you want to take a Land Speeder with double special weapons, you'll have to pay the "tax" of using the Index points.
So you can mix and match index and codex points costs in individual units? I thought we had to choose one or the other.
wtwlf123 wrote: It's been interpreted both ways. The most recent place where that unit has been available with that wargear was the Index, so you'd use Index points for the entire unit.
I'd be happy to be wrong, but the local GW store manager and I read the Codex FAQ that way.
I have hunted the webz, but have failed. Can you point me towards that FAQ?
For those of you that don't know which main gun to use with your Redemptor Dreadnought, I just finished putting mine together with the Plasma-doohickey and there's a little "gear" piece that connects the gun to the shoulder that didn't need any glue to stay. It falls out a little easily, but that's a fine sacrifice for flexibility.
wtwlf123 wrote: I'm looking at it. It's true. If you want to take a Land Speeder with double special weapons, you'll have to pay the "tax" of using the Index points.
So you can mix and match index and codex points costs in individual units? I thought we had to choose one or the other.
Again, this has been interpreted different ways. The local GW manager and I interpreted the rule to be one or the other. But you can interpret the rule to say that you can mix and match. We need an FAQ to clarify the FAQ...
wtwlf123 wrote: It's been interpreted both ways. The most recent place where that unit has been available with that wargear was the Index, so you'd use Index points for the entire unit.
I'd be happy to be wrong, but the local GW store manager and I read the Codex FAQ that way.
I have hunted the webz, but have failed. Can you point me towards that FAQ?
"Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index)."
The FAQ specifically mentions the index datacard and the associated points values as separate entities. I believe you use the the datasheet from the index (defining its stats, rules and options) but the most recent points values (currently, those in the Codex). This both fits RAW and makes sense RAI.
From what I can see in the codex it's around the 335 mark if you run it with the twin lascannon, las-talon, onslaught gatling cannon plus the rest of its standard Loadout.
I wonder if is better to run it with twin Gatling Cannons (H6, S5 AP-1 D1)? Use it to mulch infantry and leave the heavy hitting to other units?
wtwlf123 wrote: It's been interpreted both ways. The most recent place where that unit has been available with that wargear was the Index, so you'd use Index points for the entire unit.
I'd be happy to be wrong, but the local GW store manager and I read the Codex FAQ that way.
I have hunted the webz, but have failed. Can you point me towards that FAQ?
"Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index)."
The FAQ specifically mentions the index datacard and the associated points values as separate entities. I believe you use the the datasheet from the index (defining its stats, rules and options) but the most recent points values (currently, those in the Codex). This both fits RAW and makes sense RAI.
Has anyone asked them on facebook and if other armies are having their points adjusted as well for weapons such as Power Fists?
wtwlf123 wrote: It's been interpreted both ways. The most recent place where that unit has been available with that wargear was the Index, so you'd use Index points for the entire unit.
I'd be happy to be wrong, but the local GW store manager and I read the Codex FAQ that way.
I have hunted the webz, but have failed. Can you point me towards that FAQ?
"Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index)."
The FAQ specifically mentions the index datacard and the associated points values as separate entities. I believe you use the the datasheet from the index (defining its stats, rules and options) but the most recent points values (currently, those in the Codex). This both fits RAW and makes sense RAI.
See, the interpretation we had was that "the most recent points published for that model and its weapons" is talking about the combination of model + weapon. And the last place where that model with that weapon was available was the Index. So you'd have to use Index points if either the unit OR the wargear arrangement wasn't in the new Codex.
Like I said, I'd be stoked to be wrong here, because it allows me to take the new model's point discount AND use a more expansive wargear list, but it seems like you'd need to concede something to gain access to like double the weapon options. Otherwise, the new players that they were trying to "protect" with a more box-accurate Codex would get shafted.
They've literally created a situation where a Space Marine player HAS to have both the Index and the Codex to field a decent army. If there's no penalty for using the old units, they needed to move them into the Codex. Because right now, a new player will field a subpar Land Speeder arrangement, and I'll roll up with a much better wargear configuration ...for the same points cost... because it was kitted in the Index that way. When it was in the Index, with that wargear combination, the base model was 10 more points. Seems odd that I get to take advantage of the base model discount (since it could've been justified due to a restriction on wargear options). And now I can just get both the cheaper base points cost and the more expansive wargear list for free? I hope you're right, but a lot of people aren't interpreting it that way.
Gibs55 wrote: What does everyone make of the Repulsor?
From what I can see in the codex it's around the 335 mark if you run it with the twin lascannon, las-talon, onslaught gatling cannon plus the rest of its standard Loadout.
I wonder if is better to run it with twin Gatling Cannons (H6, S5 AP-1 D1)? Use it to mulch infantry and leave the heavy hitting to other units?
Since it's a flyer, I really feel it should be in the front lines, absorbing damage and mulching infantry, thus TwinHB, Heavy OGC, OGC, 5x Fragstorm Launcher, Ironhailstubber. For a total of 305. that is so much freaking dakka.20 S5 shots and 5d6+3 S4 shots
Gibs55 wrote: What does everyone make of the Repulsor?
From what I can see in the codex it's around the 335 mark if you run it with the twin lascannon, las-talon, onslaught gatling cannon plus the rest of its standard Loadout.
I wonder if is better to run it with twin Gatling Cannons (H6, S5 AP-1 D1)? Use it to mulch infantry and leave the heavy hitting to other units?
Since it's a flyer, I really feel it should be in the front lines, absorbing damage and mulching infantry, thus TwinHB, Heavy OGC, OGC, 5x Fragstorm Launcher, Ironhailstubber. For a total of 305. that is so much freaking dakka.20 S5 shots and 5d6+3 S4 shots
I tend to agree, it will go down fairly quickly though as I don't believe it gets the -1 to hit bonus like other flyers.
BrianDavion wrote: the problem with building it for anti-infantry of course is in a pure Primaris list, it's your best tank popper.
Primaris marines REALLY need some more anti-tank
True, however that will only be for those that don't want to consider other options outside Primaris. Predators seem like a good supporting unit wit 4 Lascannons?
As an ork, I love that imperial armies get more dakka, at cheaper points and better accuracy, as my army. It's not about the expected damage, it's about sheer number of shots - and it's getting old that the "buckets of dice" torch has been passed to armies with better BS and armor.
But this is neither here nor there.
I agree with repulsor being a dakka boat; that's SO much firepower for 305 points; never mind in addition to its armor and survivalists.
And if you're building a pure primaris only list, well; not even the fluff supports an entirely primaris army list yet.
fe40k wrote: As an ork, I love that imperial armies get more dakka, at cheaper points and better accuracy, as my army. It's not about the expected damage, it's about sheer number of shots - and it's getting old that the "buckets of dice" torch has been passed to armies with better BS and armor.
But this is neither here nor there.
I agree with repulsor being a dakka boat; that's SO much firepower for 305 points; never mind in addition to its armor and survivalists.
And if you're building a pure primaris only list, well; not even the fluff supports an entirely primaris army list yet.
Except for that huge new crusade guilliman launched using all new primaris marines before they'd even been dropped into chapter or the new founding or the dead/almost dead chapters taking huge reinforcements and armies on the table only being a fraction of a chapter
fe40k wrote: As an ork, I love that imperial armies get more dakka, at cheaper points and better accuracy, as my army. It's not about the expected damage, it's about sheer number of shots - and it's getting old that the "buckets of dice" torch has been passed to armies with better BS and armor.
But this is neither here nor there.
I agree with repulsor being a dakka boat; that's SO much firepower for 305 points; never mind in addition to its armor and survivalists.
And if you're building a pure primaris only list, well; not even the fluff supports an entirely primaris army list yet.
I think everyone just needs to relax until the actual army codex's are released. If they hold true to the release schedule it won't be long until most armies have their own. Its also clear that the Index was a quick and dirty way of getting everyone into 8th and the points costs might not have been well thought out for everyone. However, we have already seen with the SM codex that they have adjusted points costs (not only for Pimaris either) so lets hope they do the same for other armies when they have their turn.
In regards to the Repulsor, I have been running lists and I keep coming to that fact that the tank is simply not durable enough to justify 350ish points fully loaded, the 300 version with Gatling Cannons and the array of Bolters seems pretty good though! I will probably sill magnetise the weapons however their are simply better options for the Lascannons. Leaving the 'bug guns' off also means you force the opponent to make tough decisions about which units to target. If you have the Repulsar with all the expensive stuff its a no-brainer where all the enemy fire power is going and that 3+ disappears instantly versus most regular anti vehicle weapons.
My next question would be what units do you load inside? Its funny as I feel Terminators would be ideal for this thing, however Primaris have nothing similar to their flexibility and tankyness. Aggressors with Flame Fists seem like a good option as they pack a punch in close range combat, can burn through hordes and make opponents think twice about charging them. On the other hand Primaris troops only clock in at 200ish points for a 10 man squad which is not too bad for 20 wounds. However, they bring nothing the Repulsor cannot already deal with outside of being solid on objectives.....
I think you hit the nail on the head with one of my issues with the repressor, it tries to do too much. it tried to be the MBT, while also trying to be the primary (only really) transport for Primaris Marines, and as a result it's perhaps not as specialzied as it should be. me I'd like to see them ditch the transport capacity, (that should knock some points off) and give Primaris Marines pure transport option. The rhino is a popular standby for marine players for a reason, it gets their troops from point a to point b safely, and thats all it tries to do
Gibs55 wrote: My next question would be what units do you load inside?
Two squads of Reivers for disruptive assaults or taking objectives.
So you are thinking Pistols and Combat weapons? Jump out throw grenades, charge in without the threat of overwatch? The only downside I can see is that Reivers are elite (same as Aggressors) which means you may still want some troops to get Command Points. If, you were running Primaris Troops would you run them without a transport and the 30" bolt rifle?
Probably. Intercessors are quite good for their points at being objective-holders. Repulsors are a bit pricey, but do have a respectable amount of firepower, so I'd dedicate specialists to their use rather than generalists.
So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
Just last night, I played a game against an opponent with pristine positioning that kept me from utilizing a unit of Assault Marines with 3 plasma pistols. A unit of Vanguard Vets with plasma would have had the same problem.
2 VIUs. Very Important Units in my opponent's backfield that have the potential to just absolutely wreck face.
These units were screened by a very large infantry unit that was spaced in such a way that, if I stayed 9'' away from the screen, I was outside of 12'' from the VIU, which is plasma pistol range.
The 18'' range on the Exterminators was something I wish I had! However, he also gave those units a -1 to hit aura with a character I could not target (FW unit I believe). So I would still be overheating on 2's. Even if I got a decent roll on the hits for those weapons, they were T8 so I would have had a hard time wounding them still. Likely would not have killed a VIU.
Melissia wrote: Probably. Intercessors are quite good for their points at being objective-holders. Repulsors are a bit pricey, but do have a respectable amount of firepower, so I'd dedicate specialists to their use rather than generalists.
Good point, I also agree that Intercessors are great at holding objectives.
ultimentra wrote: So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
Just last night, I played a game against an opponent with pristine positioning that kept me from utilizing a unit of Assault Marines with 3 plasma pistols. A unit of Vanguard Vets with plasma would have had the same problem.
2 VIUs. Very Important Units in my opponent's backfield that have the potential to just absolutely wreck face.
These units were screened by a very large infantry unit that was spaced in such a way that, if I stayed 9'' away from the screen, I was outside of 12'' from the VIU, which is plasma pistol range.
The 18'' range on the Exterminators was something I wish I had! However, he also gave those units a -1 to hit aura with a character I could not target (FW unit I believe). So I would still be overheating on 2's. Even if I got a decent roll on the hits for those weapons, they were T8 so I would have had a hard time wounding them still. Likely would not have killed a VIU.
This is why i don't think a full/heavy deep strike army really works. I do think one dangerous unit dropping in can be useful, as by turn 2 or 3 there is likely to be a unit open to being shot and charged, especially with maelstrom missions as they force both players to move forward.
Quick question since I haven't seen the book yet. Korsarro Khan, are his rules identical to the index or is there actually something lost by running him on a bike from the index?
dmthomas7 wrote: Quick question since I haven't seen the book yet. Korsarro Khan, are his rules identical to the index or is there actually something lost by running him on a bike from the index?
Hehas exactly the same stats and cost in the index and the codex.
ultimentra wrote: So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.
As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent
ultimentra wrote: So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.
As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent
LOL you sound like you're full of gak dude. You probably haven't played any of the units you're talking about.
I'll be playing the plasma inceptors through proxy this coming weekend, I'll be sure to report back with my findings. Theory crafting and saying "this is seems rather expensive for what it does" is one thing, but just calling it trash? Yeah no I don't think so.
Also, before you start with me. No, I don't play tournaments, and no, I'm not a min/maxer looking for the quickest, easiest and most efficient win. So no, you can't use an argument like that against me because I don't care about it.
ultimentra wrote: So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.
As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent
I don't have the codex in hand yet, but I'm near positive Battlescribe is mispricing those. It lists the unit of 3 with plasma for 258, but I think it should be 174. Still really expensive for me to get too excited about, but a heck of a lot better. Edit: Okay, I guess the cost is comparable to a unit of vet bikers with plasma guns and it gives an option in a force slot I never like having to fill. I'm not rushing out to buy them, but they seem like they'd have uses.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So the consensus seems to be that nearly all of the Primaris units aren't that great and the regular SM units are better. Intriguing.
Depends what you're needing. I wouldn't use regular Tactical Marines over Intercessors to be honest, and with Deep Striking and charging, it's kinda hard to choose between Reivers and Vanguard for me (as much as Relic Blades and Power Weapons call to me).
ultimentra wrote: So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.
As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent
LOL you sound like you're full of gak dude. You probably haven't played any of the units you're talking about.
I'll be playing the plasma inceptors through proxy this coming weekend, I'll be sure to report back with my findings. Theory crafting and saying "this is seems rather expensive for what it does" is one thing, but just calling it trash? Yeah no I don't think so.
Also, before you start with me. No, I don't play tournaments, and no, I'm not a min/maxer looking for the quickest, easiest and most efficient win. So no, you can't use an argument like that against me because I don't care about it.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So the consensus seems to be that nearly all of the Primaris units aren't that great and the regular SM units are better. Intriguing.
Probably boils down to the fact that people who don't like unit X are more likely to complain about them on the internet, than people who like unit X are likely to give them praise on the internet.
I think most of the Primiaris Units are fine:
- Intercessors are solid. Not supergreat, but not bad either. They're good at camping an objective in cover.
- Reivers are good. Only Vanguards are better per point at killing hordes in CC, but Vanguards don't have 2 wounds.
- Aggressors are also good, and unleash an amazing amount of dakka or fire. They compete with Assault Centurions, but are much cheaper (and faster), so they still have a role.
- Interceptors are the only Primaris-unit I don't really like. They're overpriced and don't really do anything that other marines (primaris or otherwise) can already do.
- Hellblasters are also good, albeit expensive but then they should be.
- The Redemptor seems to get quite abit of hate, but the Dakka-version of it is very solid, and offers something the other Dreadnaught's don't.
- The Repulsor is awesome. I don't understand the hate for this tank at all. Yes it costs like a Landraider and doesn't have a 2+. On the flipside it's harder to charge, can leave combat and shoot thanks to Fly (this is huge), and it has a stupid amount of guns on it, way more than a Landraider.
- The Redemptor seems to get quite abit of hate, but the Dakka-version of it is very solid, and offers something the other Dreadnaught's don't.
The last part of your sentence is untrue at least: I run a full dreadnought army, have double the amount of models I actually need for it and have been doing breakdowns of units, options and so on for my blog: The main thing I can say for the Redemptor is, if monobuilded to the dakka variant, it's solidly okay for it's points.
It has the most heavy bolter equivalent shots of any dread, but the worst skill stats of a high end dread and only one weapon with a longer range than 24 inches. Factor in a fist baked into the base cost you can't chose to not take, it has a lot of incentive to move and end up shooting at BS4+. It also hurts the most of any degrading dread from degrading stats as a result.
Point for point equivalents amongst other dreads tend to lead to either more efficiency, or more flexibility.
Again, it's not bad: But I'd strongly contend your point that it offers anything new or unique.
dmthomas7 wrote: Quick question since I haven't seen the book yet. Korsarro Khan, are his rules identical to the index or is there actually something lost by running him on a bike from the index?
He is exactly identical to the foot model in the index. So if you don't have an issue with the difference of the foot model vs the bike model, you good to go. You even get WS chapter tactics, and access to that sweet stratagem, which is excellent for the Khan on the bike.
Leth wrote: Anyone have a complete list of the points cost changes?
I'm pretty sure the rumor section has some info like that.
ultimentra wrote: So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.
As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent
I generally agree, but i think only primaris can go into the repulsor.
I'd almost think you'd be better off keeping aggressors or hellblasters inside than reivers, but i mostly just don't like reivers that much.
ultimentra wrote: So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.
As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent
LOL you sound like you're full of gak dude. You probably haven't played any of the units you're talking about.
I'll be playing the plasma inceptors through proxy this coming weekend, I'll be sure to report back with my findings. Theory crafting and saying "this is seems rather expensive for what it does" is one thing, but just calling it trash? Yeah no I don't think so.
Also, before you start with me. No, I don't play tournaments, and no, I'm not a min/maxer looking for the quickest, easiest and most efficient win. So no, you can't use an argument like that against me because I don't care about it.
I own all the current models, have it all painted and have played over 15 games with primaris. I don't mind max, and I don't play in tourneys. For the time and money invested though, if im given 2 options and one of those options is terrible, im not going to be stupid and take it "just because". Its already gimping playing pure primaris and needed to be Ultramarines to have a chance of winning, forced to take Roboute.
You average is 12 shots. For 240 I can take 4 with the HB getting 24 shots. STR 5 to STR 7 really doesent come into play that much to make a difference. If you are trying to kill vehicles, better at taking hellblasters and overcharging with rerolls in cover. Im guaranteed 24 shots every time, while I could get 6-18 shots with plasma. Im sure this weekend you will proxy them and rush back on here to go "SEE THEY ARE AMAZINGS!" but really they are not. Its a bad configuration when there are far better options.
ultimentra wrote: So guys, a quick note for you on the subject of double plasma pistol gunslinger Vanguard Veterans VS plasma exterminator Inceptors.
I wouldn't even waste time for plasma interceptors. Total trash. 28 points per gun and 30 per guy. 258 points for a bunch of short range plasma. Mini HB are just better and cheaper as it's garenteed shots. Take Hellblasters if you want plasma.
As for repulsor, I'd go mass anti infantry. Put 9 reivers in it with cassius or generic chaplain. Run it up kill as much as you can then 2nd turn jump out, get 2 inches away grenade then charge getting rerollsnto hit. A lot of points sunk into that but has the potentiomal to do some damage target dependent
I don't have the codex in hand yet, but I'm near positive Battlescribe is mispricing those. It lists the unit of 3 with plasma for 258, but I think it should be 174. Still really expensive for me to get too excited about, but a heck of a lot better. Edit: Okay, I guess the cost is comparable to a unit of vet bikers with plasma guns and it gives an option in a force slot I never like having to fill. I'm not rushing out to buy them, but they seem like they'd have uses.
For 3 of them, its 258 points. that's from the codex I have.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So the consensus seems to be that nearly all of the Primaris units aren't that great and the regular SM units are better. Intriguing.
Probably boils down to the fact that people who don't like unit X are more likely to complain about them on the internet, than people who like unit X are likely to give them praise on the internet.
I think most of the Primiaris Units are fine:
- Intercessors are solid. Not supergreat, but not bad either. They're good at camping an objective in cover.
- Reivers are good. Only Vanguards are better per point at killing hordes in CC, but Vanguards don't have 2 wounds.
- Aggressors are also good, and unleash an amazing amount of dakka or fire. They compete with Assault Centurions, but are much cheaper (and faster), so they still have a role.
- Interceptors are the only Primaris-unit I don't really like. They're overpriced and don't really do anything that other marines (primaris or otherwise) can already do.
- Hellblasters are also good, albeit expensive but then they should be.
- The Redemptor seems to get quite abit of hate, but the Dakka-version of it is very solid, and offers something the other Dreadnaught's don't.
- The Repulsor is awesome. I don't understand the hate for this tank at all. Yes it costs like a Landraider and doesn't have a 2+. On the flipside it's harder to charge, can leave combat and shoot thanks to Fly (this is huge), and it has a stupid amount of guns on it, way more than a Landraider.
Following is all based on a pure primaris play experience with Robby
Intercessors - I agree. Given that the GL is 4 points, always a must take. Good to slowly advance and hold ovjectives while having the chance of dealing minor anti tank
Reivers - From the games ive had with them I disagree. If they had -1 to their weapon, id call them good. As is, very lackluster as a CC unit. The fail of not being able to deepstrike and grenade the unit is also disappointing. I will try them with the Prim Chaplain in a Repulsor to make a final call, but its a shooting game, so weak CC isn't much use.
Aggressors - Agree, they are amazing .Always have done a great job in my games and that's without being near Roboute for full rerolls. Being able to advance with no penalty is fantastic. and their points is so low for as much shots as they get
Hellblasters - A very good anti tank. Since its all about shooting, a solid blob of 10 with heavy blasters is a nightmare for tanks. Best used with Rob for full rerolls, but when doing so a nasty 36 inch death bubble to anything they point at. Expensive at 350 but still worth it
Redemptor - Ive only used it with mass dakka. Its been, meh. I don't think its plasma has much use as hellblasters in cover can deal more consistent damage. And aggressors fill that mass dakka role. I like how it looks, but it just hasn't done much besides be a bullet catcher and dead on turn 2
Repulsor. - At first yea, its pretty expensive. It can shoot a ton though and fly lets it not be locked down like normal LR can be. that said, I honestly only think its use is CC reivers with Chaplain. that's what im going to try.
Other things like most characters are good. ancients are also great to stick near the blob of Hellblasters. Half the time even if your reroll overcharge craps out, you get to get another shot off.
- Intercessors are solid. Not supergreat, but not bad either. They're good at camping an objective in cover.
- Reivers are good. Only Vanguards are better per point at killing hordes in CC, but Vanguards don't have 2 wounds.
- Aggressors are also good, and unleash an amazing amount of dakka or fire. They compete with Assault Centurions, but are much cheaper (and faster), so they still have a role.
- Interceptors are the only Primaris-unit I don't really like. They're overpriced and don't really do anything that other marines (primaris or otherwise) can already do.
- Hellblasters are also good, albeit expensive but then they should be.
- The Redemptor seems to get quite abit of hate, but the Dakka-version of it is very solid, and offers something the other Dreadnaught's don't.
- The Repulsor is awesome. I don't understand the hate for this tank at all. Yes it costs like a Landraider and doesn't have a 2+. On the flipside it's harder to charge, can leave combat and shoot thanks to Fly (this is huge), and it has a stupid amount of guns on it, way more than a Landraider.
Following is all based on a pure primaris play experience with Robby
Intercessors - I agree. Given that the GL is 4 points, always a must take. Good to slowly advance and hold ovjectives while having the chance of dealing minor anti tank
Reivers - From the games ive had with them I disagree. If they had -1 to their weapon, id call them good. As is, very lackluster as a CC unit. The fail of not being able to deepstrike and grenade the unit is also disappointing. I will try them with the Prim Chaplain in a Repulsor to make a final call, but its a shooting game, so weak CC isn't much use.
Aggressors - Agree, they are amazing .Always have done a great job in my games and that's without being near Roboute for full rerolls. Being able to advance with no penalty is fantastic. and their points is so low for as much shots as they get
Hellblasters - A very good anti tank. Since its all about shooting, a solid blob of 10 with heavy blasters is a nightmare for tanks. Best used with Rob for full rerolls, but when doing so a nasty 36 inch death bubble to anything they point at. Expensive at 350 but still worth it
Redemptor - Ive only used it with mass dakka. Its been, meh. I don't think its plasma has much use as hellblasters in cover can deal more consistent damage. And aggressors fill that mass dakka role. I like how it looks, but it just hasn't done much besides be a bullet catcher and dead on turn 2
Repulsor. - At first yea, its pretty expensive. It can shoot a ton though and fly lets it not be locked down like normal LR can be. that said, I honestly only think its use is CC reivers with Chaplain. that's what im going to try.
Other things like most characters are good. ancients are also great to stick near the blob of Hellblasters. Half the time even if your reroll overcharge craps out, you get to get another shot off.
I think reivers should be quite effective when used as you would use intercessors, with the carbine and without deep strike. They are two pts cheaper with the same statline and a comparable gun, and represent the cheapest infantry wounds in SM. I don't have any experience with the grenade launcher but it doesn't seem game-changing.
jcd386 wrote: Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.
Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.
This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.
Bring a Captain along?
He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.
jcd386 wrote: Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.
Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.
This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.
Bring a Captain along?
He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.
Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.
And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.
For me the issue with the reivers is their delivery. Unless you use the raven guard strat, they either have to deepstrike, walk, or go in the repulsor.
The RG strat seems the most powerful way to run them, as if you go first you should be able to grenade and charge something, though what that thing is will be determined by the enemy deployment, meaning a good player won't give you a lot of great targets (scouts, a rhino, kroot, guardsmen, etc).
If they deepstrike they don't get to use their grenades, might not make the assault, and are even more limited by the enemy deployment. Black Templar CTs help this some, and being able to come in on turn 2 or 3 is strategically flexible.
Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.
Riding in the repulsor seems like am okay way to go, but since you won't have more than one or two of them, id think hellblasters or aggressors are more worth protecting.
Additionally, once they are delivered, they really don't do that much. In the fight phase 5 of them kill 3 marines or do 2 wounds to a rhino, then almost certainly die the next turn to fall back and shooting. In shooting they might kill one marine with their pistols.
I just don't see that many reasons to take them, or find them that scary across the table.
jcd386 wrote: Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.
Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.
This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.
Bring a Captain along?
He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.
Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.
And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.
Pretty sure it's right. 12 shots average, you roll two 1s, reroll them, and have a 1/6 chance to roll another 1 on each dice.
jcd386 wrote: Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.
If they are armed with the ccw i agree, but with the carbine they are comparable to intercessors and represent cheaper wounds. They are actually fairly difficult to kill efficiently, at least in comparison to other SM units.
jcd386 wrote: Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.
Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.
This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.
Bring a Captain along?
He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.
Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.
And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.
The 1/3 is correct, with rerolls.
12 shots out of the unit on average (6D3 = 12 avg).
2 rolls of 1 on average.
rerolling the 2 ones nets you an over heat every third turn with a captain.
So, our 258 point squad is now what, 360+ for 12 plasma shots with an 18" range? Feels kinda bad. Wouldn't a 10 man Hellblaster squad with the heavy blasters be a better choice? More strength, more reach, able to camp objectives, more wounds, able to get consistent cover saves.
Hell, 3 Las/plasma + HK + stormbolter razorbacks seem like a better choice as well.
I think you could manage 2 5 man devastator squads with 4 plasma cannons each for 360 points as well. 8 Plasma cannons is 16 shots per turn avg, but on a more frail platform obviously.
jcd386 wrote: Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.
Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.
This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.
Bring a Captain along?
He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.
Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.
And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.
The 1/3 is correct, with rerolls.
12 shots out of the unit on average (6D3 = 12 avg).
2 rolls of 1 on average.
rerolling the 2 ones nets you an over heat every third turn with a captain.
So, our 258 point squad is now what, 360+ for 12 plasma shots with an 18" range? Feels kinda bad. Wouldn't a 10 man Hellblaster squad with the heavy blasters be a better choice? More strength, more reach, able to camp objectives, more wounds, able to get consistent cover saves.
Hell, 3 Las/plasma + HK + stormbolter razorbacks seem like a better choice as well.
I think you could manage 2 5 man devastator squads with 4 plasma cannons each for 360 points as well. 8 Plasma cannons is 16 shots per turn avg, but on a more frail platform obviously.
I am not arguing for them - just that they had options. Honestly, I won't run the Plasma versions anyhow. Especially with those stupid helmets. I think the Bolter versions are probably the best of the two Inceptor options. Like you said, Marines do Plasma well enough with Heckblasters and whatnot. No sense in wasting it on these guys.
jcd386 wrote: For me the issue with the reivers is their delivery. Unless you use the raven guard strat, they either have to deepstrike, walk, or go in the repulsor.
The RG strat seems the most powerful way to run them, as if you go first you should be able to grenade and charge something, though what that thing is will be determined by the enemy deployment, meaning a good player won't give you a lot of great targets (scouts, a rhino, kroot, guardsmen, etc).
If they deepstrike they don't get to use their grenades, might not make the assault, and are even more limited by the enemy deployment. Black Templar CTs help this some, and being able to come in on turn 2 or 3 is strategically flexible.
Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.
Riding in the repulsor seems like am okay way to go, but since you won't have more than one or two of them, id think hellblasters or aggressors are more worth protecting.
Additionally, once they are delivered, they really don't do that much. In the fight phase 5 of them kill 3 marines or do 2 wounds to a rhino, then almost certainly die the next turn to fall back and shooting. In shooting they might kill one marine with their pistols.
I just don't see that many reasons to take them, or find them that scary across the table.
jcd386 wrote: Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.
Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.
This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.
Bring a Captain along?
He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.
Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.
And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.
Pretty sure it's right. 12 shots average, you roll two 1s, reroll them, and have a 1/6 chance to roll another 1 on each dice.
Why do you think hellblasters/agressors are better in the repulsor?
I suppose its based on chapter?
For UM, best to take heavy hellblasters and use them as a firebase with bobbys rerolls. turn 3-4 you might move up as hed move by then to go after objectives so you wont overcharge that turn, but besides that they don't need to move much. Don't see much reason to take rapid fire.
Same with agressors. Start 12 up, advance for total of average 8 more. Your now 20 in, hopefully in cover and have threat of 18 so should be able to hit most things. I don't consider using the flamers, as that's a worse option.
Overall, don't think there really is a unit that's "must ride repulsor!" but the best (and its a bad over all point sink option) is the reivers+chap.
jcd386 wrote: Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.
If they are armed with the ccw i agree, but with the carbine they are comparable to intercessors and represent cheaper wounds. They are actually fairly difficult to kill efficiently, at least in comparison to other SM units.
I've just never been that scared of 10 Bolter shots.
And i would generally rather have a more dangerous fragile unit (tac squads) than i would an infective hard to kill one. Plus they really arent that hard to kill with heavy bolters, assault cannons, etc, and actually easier to kill with autocannons, oc plasma, grav, etc than a similarly pointed tac squad is.
jcd386 wrote: For me the issue with the reivers is their delivery. Unless you use the raven guard strat, they either have to deepstrike, walk, or go in the repulsor.
The RG strat seems the most powerful way to run them, as if you go first you should be able to grenade and charge something, though what that thing is will be determined by the enemy deployment, meaning a good player won't give you a lot of great targets (scouts, a rhino, kroot, guardsmen, etc).
If they deepstrike they don't get to use their grenades, might not make the assault, and are even more limited by the enemy deployment. Black Templar CTs help this some, and being able to come in on turn 2 or 3 is strategically flexible.
Walking seems like the worst way to run them since their sitting is fairly terrible, and although they do have 2 wounds, t4 3+ is still pretty easy to wound with most anti infantry weapons.
Riding in the repulsor seems like am okay way to go, but since you won't have more than one or two of them, id think hellblasters or aggressors are more worth protecting.
Additionally, once they are delivered, they really don't do that much. In the fight phase 5 of them kill 3 marines or do 2 wounds to a rhino, then almost certainly die the next turn to fall back and shooting. In shooting they might kill one marine with their pistols.
I just don't see that many reasons to take them, or find them that scary across the table.
jcd386 wrote: Another downside of the plasma inceptors is the danger of losing a guy to over charge with so many shots per model.
Without rerolls you are likely to lose roll two 1s per 12 shots, and even with rerolls of 1 you will roll a 1 to hit 1/3 of the time.
This means you shouldn't overcharge them that often, which makes their shooting worse than the bolters per their points.
Bring a Captain along?
He mentioned how it's not great even with rerolls on 1s, and also Captains often don't have the mobility to keep up unless you dedicate them to that sort of role.
Is that math right? 1/3 seems high with re-rolls.
And the Captain will mitigate enough to make it worth it generally. Just use a Jump Pack Captain.
Pretty sure it's right. 12 shots average, you roll two 1s, reroll them, and have a 1/6 chance to roll another 1 on each dice.
Why do you think hellblasters/agressors are better in the repulsor?
I suppose its based on chapter?
For UM, best to take heavy hellblasters and use them as a firebase with bobbys rerolls. turn 3-4 you might move up as hed move by then to go after objectives so you wont overcharge that turn, but besides that they don't need to move much. Don't see much reason to take rapid fire.
Same with agressors. Start 12 up, advance for total of average 8 more. Your now 20 in, hopefully in cover and have threat of 18 so should be able to hit most things. I don't consider using the flamers, as that's a worse option.
Overall, don't think there really is a unit that's "must ride repulsor!" but the best (and its a bad over all point sink option) is the reivers+chap.
Mostly because those units are more expensive and more likely to be targeted by effective enemy shooting in the first couple turns.
Has anyone done the math on which Hellblaster variant is the best? I think it is probably between the Assault and Rapid Fire variant. The Heavy variant suffers from, well, being heavy, but also being single shot.
I was up at Warhammer world this weekend with my Imperial Fists, for the Fate of Konnor campaign. They had a 3-game 1500 point (combined) doubles event on Saturday and 3-game singles 1700 on Sunday. I went with a friend who used ravenguard for the doubles and iron hands for the singles.
In total we won 8 of the 9 games we played. I contrived to lose the ambush mission against Ynnari, but actually shouldn’t have. We were playing the ambush mission and he won by getting a star weaver full of harlequins off the board, but it had to advance to do so and shouldn’t have been able to, as it has been locked in cc. Neither of us remembered that rule at the time – which is fine. That kind of thing happens in new editions. He stole initiative as well
Anyway we learned some lessons from the games, as follows:
Intercessors are great. They are the good troops choice that marines have been waiting for forever. My friend had 2 squads of 5 and a squad of 10 in his 750 point RG army and they were rock solid – very hard to shift and killed stuff quite a lot. My imperial fist ones were quite nasty due to ignoring cover. The auxiliary grenade launchers helped quite a bit. In future I’ll definitely give sergeants power swords, as intercessors are actually fairly decent in cc, and this might well tip the balance. Actually I think the cost of power weapons now justifies giving them to pretty much all sergeants. If anything, the fact that intercessor sergeants can have power swords makes reivers even more pointless than I already think they are.
I think the intercessors benefited from being in quite mechanised armies. They’d be quite vulnerable to heavy weapons, but people needed to fire those at vehicles. Small-arms fire doesn’t do an awful lot to intercessors – particularly raven guard ones in cover.
The Ravenguard stratagem also won us at least one game. We were able to have the RG captain deploy on the relic, screened by a unit of 10 intercessors. Even though our opponents had first turn, and a lot of nasty dakka, the captain was unmolested. He was able to “advance” away with the relic while my imperial fists came and counter-attacked the people who’d been picking on the RG intercessors.
By contrast, normal tactical squads just seemed rubbish. I had a 5-man tactical squad with a storm bolter and plasma gun in the singles, and they were only 20 points cheaper than 5 intercessors would have been. I only own 5 intercessors though, and the tacticals can ride in my storm eagle.
Contemptor dreadnoughts are also really good. They are an awful lot better than normal dreads because of being faster, stronger (S14 means they tend to wound vehicles on a 2+) and more accurate. The invulnerable helps too. You can be seriously aggressive with these things. Their shooting isn’t great but they don’t spend many points on their guns. Instead they just give you a really efficient way of hitting things with a dreadnought close combat weapon – which then results in those things dying in a very messy way.
On the other hand I wasn’t that impressed by my Deredeo. The weak AP meant that it tended to fail to kill most things. It was very good against elder and necron skimmers but poor against anything with a 3+ save. A quad-lascannon Mortis Contemptor would be cheaper. The one really good thing it did was to attract a lot of hate for some reason, most of which it shrugged off without too much bother. People really kept gunning for it – charging in with helldrakes, deep-striking terminators and so on. It tended to just soak things up and then wander off, while other people pounced on whoever had been trying to kill it.
I used Lysander on both days. He is another model that does a single job, really well, without spending many points on other stuff. He seemed to keep on running into Typhus and assorted other nurgle lords, and he was always standing at the end. A duel against a Solitaire resulted in nothing much happening at all. Any time he got next to something without a really good invulnerable, it died. I often held onto 2CPs to use the stratagem to attack again if a character dies – but he never died. He did get down to 1 wound in a game vs 4 blight drones and 3 lords of contagion. Exploding blight drones are annoying.
Cataphractii were kind of cool too. I had them ride around in a storm eagle in the singles games, but they might not have really needed it, as they can just deep strike instead. They aren’t too expensive and they are seriously tough. I tended to have them engage as many units of plague marines as they could (did I mention 4 of the 6 games involved plague marines?) and then slowly grind them into a paste.
The Storm Eagle was quite fun. I’m not sure if it was actually required as a transport, because most of the guys inside could deep strike anyway, but it dropping off Lysander and the Cataphractii won me one of the games – in which it also shot Belokar dead. Flyers are actually quite good at assassinating characters, as they are often able to get close to them and also usually can’t be hit back by those characters – should they survive.
I used 3 inceptors with assault bolters in the singles and found them a very good unit to have. They can always get a shot without dying, because you may as well always deep strike. Like the intercessors, they benefit from being a lower-priority target for heavy weapons if there are lots of big scary tanks and dreadnoughts around. It helped that Lysander tended to be around them, so they often got rerolls of 1s.
I actually don’t think I always used the inceptors quite right. They are dedicated anti-infantry unit and I sometimes fired them at things like blight drones. My instinct is that their S5 makes them better at this than intercessors, but it really doesn’t. I should tend to have inceptors fire at infantry and intercessors shoot tanks – or just bring more lascannons.
I do think plasma inceptors would be good, based on the performance of the bolter-armed ones. It’s a really big deal to be able to deploy to hit the thing that you need to die, and to have been tucked up nice and safe in the carrying case before that. I think hellblasters on the ground would tend to be focussed down and quite often die before they fired, but inceptors wouldn’t have that issue. And it would work particularly well for me if I could keep them near to Lysander.
My friend used 3 predators with autocannons and lascannons, and a cataphractii captain with the storm of fire warlord trait. This caused absolute carnage. The autocannons quite often got the extra -1ap from storm of fire, as they were getting +1 to wound, and the lascannons would tend to wound on a 2+.
He also played against Roboute Guilliman twice (the Imperial side was oversubscribed on day two, so he was made to be a traitor!). He won the games but felt that RG was seriously under-costed. He certainly does seem to do serious amounts of damage to things, and the buffs he hands out are incredible. It’s a particular bonus to plasma gunners, who can even shoot at flyers without too much concern about blowing themselves up.
In terms of tactics one thing I found is that assault is not dead, so long as it’s mass-assault. If you send just a unit or two forward then the enemy can just take whatever losses they suffer, fall back with whoever’s in combat and then blow your guys away. And whoever’s up front will get smited a bunch of times as well. But if you can tie up several units then the enemy firepower really drops away, as everyone has to fall back. That results in an enemy turn in which loads of their army does nothing much at all, and that means you win.
I’m not sure what to do in future. So far I’ve just got the primaris guys from the starter set, who I’ve been using as troops to go with my 30k Imperial Fists. That has worked well, but if I buy any more guys I think I’ll need to think a bit about whether to stay as Imperial Fists. Ignoring cover is good, and so is Lysander, but it’s not the strongest. On the plus side I’ve got yellow to look good and that’s pretty satisfying. I quite like the idea of painting them as the greyshields from the dark imperium book, so I’d have guys of all the original 9 legions using ultramarines CTs, potentially led by RG. Not sure.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Has anyone done the math on which Hellblaster variant is the best? I think it is probably between the Assault and Rapid Fire variant. The Heavy variant suffers from, well, being heavy, but also being single shot.
I did some math vs marines, terminators, rhinos, and land raiders.
Unsurprisingly:
At over 24" range, heavy is the best.
At 24" range, assault is best.
Inside 15" rapid fire is the best.
So it really depends on how close you think you can get.
I don't have the points for the weapons in front of me, but assuming the three are similar, i would lean towards the assault version if footslogging and rapid fire if riding in the repulsor.
The heavy guns only kill 2.7 out of cover marines, do 4.4 wounds to a rhino, 3.7 to a land raider, and kill 1.85 terminators, and have to overcharge to get those numbers vs all but the Marines. None of these are very good numbers imo.
The assault kill 4.4 marines, do 6.6 to rhino, 3.7 to lr, and kill 2.9 terminators, overcharging vs all but marines.
Long range Rapid fire kills 2.7 marines, 4.4 rhino wounds, 2.7 lr wounds, and kills 1.85 terminators, over charging vs all targets.
Close range rapid fire doubles the above numbers to 5.5, 8.8, 5.5, and 3.7.
Doh, I priced Inceptors with 1 gun and they have 2, dont they? Yeah, that makes them less appealing. Much as I like double the shots I was assuming, I dont like putting that many points in to only 3 guys, especially who can die to a supercharge.
I'm not sure I'd use hellblasters. The cost reduction in the codex has made them worth considering though.
I think it's a simple choice between heavy and rapid fire. Rapid fire just wins this one. Not enough stuff is T8 to justify the extra cost, having only one shot and being heavy - which is especially terrible on a plasma weapon. Heavy plasma devastators fire d3 shots for roughly the same price.
It's harder to decide whether to go for the assault ones. They might actually be best. The fall in strength is very significant though. When overcharged, assault guys will do less damage against t4, t7 and t8. 4 and 7 are very common toughness values so this matters.
I'm not really sure what niche hellblasters fill though. Lascannons seem a better answer to tough things. I think I'd sooner go for plasma inceptors, even at their very high price, so that I could put them where they were needed.
The exception would be raven guard. I think they would do well to bring some rapid fire guys. Assault would also be good, so as to stay at over 12" away more easily. In reality though, the necessity of going forwards to claim objectives means you'll rarely be able to kite stuff anyway, so you may as well go forwards.
With my Raven Guard I was looking at possibly putting together a couple of Mortis Dreadnoughts.
Dual Twin Lascannons are 175 and seem a bit pricey for 1 model. I am kind of thinking of doing the conversion for Dual Mulit-Melta (129) or Dual Heavy Plasma Cannon (135).
jcd386 wrote: I did some math vs marines, terminators, rhinos, and land raiders.
Unsurprisingly:
At over 24" range, heavy is the best.
At 24" range, assault is best.
Inside 15" rapid fire is the best.
So it really depends on how close you think you can get.
This basically means that heavy straight up has the worst damage potential, only really having range to call on. Doesn't surprise me at all really.
I'd suggest plasma cannon Devastators for that role, much better rate of fire.
That was my thought as well. The added strength really doesn't do a whole lot for them (though they are wounding most things on a 3+ or 2+). In most cases, due to the number of shots, the Assault 2 variant has a better damage output than the Heavy 1. I think they will be almost equal even when the Assault 2 advances, which takes away one of the bonuses of the Heavy variant (range).
Against MEQs A2 will be 2(4/6)(4/6)(5/6)=.74 wounds
H1 will be (4/6)(5/6)(5/6)=.46
A2 Advance is 2(3/6)(4/6)(5/6)=.55
Against GEQs A2 will be 2(4/6)(5/6)(6/6)=1.11
H1 will be (4/6)(5/6)(6/6)=.55
A2 Advance is 2(3/6)(5/6)(6/6)=.84
So it really doesn't make sense to take the heavy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: The heavy plasma variant is honestly the weakest choice.
i think it really could of done with more base damage to make it more appealing.
I will be sticking with the rapid fire. personally.
The Assault might even still be better than the Rapid Fire, but the Rapid Fire has the range to keep it on par.
Youn wrote: With my Raven Guard I was looking at possibly putting together a couple of Mortis Dreadnoughts.
Dual Twin Lascannons are 175 and seem a bit pricey for 1 model. I am kind of thinking of doing the conversion for Dual Mulit-Melta (129) or Dual Heavy Plasma Cannon (135).
Has anyone any experience with the Mortis?
Yeah I have a lot of experience here: Quad las is actually one of the cheapest most efficient four lascannon platforms space marines have, only really outdone in efficiency by a Contemptor Mortis with the same loadout.
I would not reccomend dual multi Melta on any Dread platform: Low rate of fire, lowish effective range especially if wanting to get in Melta range. You'd be moving and shooting 2 shots at BS4+ a lot of the time.
As for plasma... Marines have a lot of plasma Platforms, and this isn't really the most efficient way to do it. Basically, compare dreadnought weapon lists to Devastator weapons: If a weapon is on both lists, it's as a rule good if twinned on the dread, inefficient if not.
The other options I'd like to highlight are twin heavy bolter: Two of these on a Mortis gives you the cheapest dread in the game, and a pretty good anti-infantry platform. More efficient point for point and better range than the Redemptor, in fact.
Twin autocannon is very good too, though if you have the Index run it as a venerable dread instead.
jcd386 wrote: I did some math vs marines, terminators, rhinos, and land raiders.
Unsurprisingly:
At over 24" range, heavy is the best.
At 24" range, assault is best.
Inside 15" rapid fire is the best.
So it really depends on how close you think you can get.
This basically means that heavy straight up has the worst damage potential, only really having range to call on. Doesn't surprise me at all really.
I'd suggest plasma cannon Devastators for that role, much better rate of fire.
4 plasma cannons are better than 5 heavy hellblasters vs marines, rhinos, and terminators, but not land raiders. They kill 2.9 terminators, 3.7 marines, do 7.4 wounds to rhinos, and 3.5 to land raiders. These numbers are without cover.
changemod wrote: The other options I'd like to highlight are twin heavy bolter: Two of these on a Mortis gives you the cheapest dread in the game, and a pretty good anti-infantry platform. More efficient point for point and better range than the Redemptor, in fact.
Can you share your thoughts a bit more on this?
Three HB Mortis come out to roughly the same costs as 2 Dakka Redemptors (330 vs. 320).
Both are 36 HB-equivalent shots total, but you get the free rocket and storm bolter shots with the Redemptors.
2x7W vs 13W puts survivability slightly in favor of the Mortis.
Elite vs heavy slot being more beneficial depends on your list, so I'll call that a wash.
Is the extra range worth significantly more to you than the rocket/SB shots?
changemod wrote: The other options I'd like to highlight are twin heavy bolter: Two of these on a Mortis gives you the cheapest dread in the game, and a pretty good anti-infantry platform. More efficient point for point and better range than the Redemptor, in fact.
Can you share your thoughts a bit more on this?
Three HB Mortis come out to roughly the same costs as 2 Dakka Redemptors (330 vs. 320).
Both are 36 HB-equivalent shots total, but you get the free rocket and storm bolter shots with the Redemptors.
2x7W vs 13W puts survivability slightly in favor of the Mortis.
Elite vs heavy slot being more beneficial depends on your list, so I'll call that a wash.
Is the extra range worth significantly more to you than the rocket/SB shots?
1 Dakka Redemptor costs 212. Though I prefer the 2 Stormbolters for the range which costs 204
It's pretty awesome. Great counter to large flyers like the stormraven with it's strength 8 autocannons and helical targeting array. Can be a bullet hose as well with the twin heavy bolters and aiolos. Very survivable with it's invul and 14 wounds.
changemod wrote: The other options I'd like to highlight are twin heavy bolter: Two of these on a Mortis gives you the cheapest dread in the game, and a pretty good anti-infantry platform. More efficient point for point and better range than the Redemptor, in fact.
Can you share your thoughts a bit more on this?
Three HB Mortis come out to roughly the same costs as 2 Dakka Redemptors (330 vs. 320).
Both are 36 HB-equivalent shots total, but you get the free rocket and storm bolter shots with the Redemptors.
2x7W vs 13W puts survivability slightly in favor of the Mortis.
Elite vs heavy slot being more beneficial depends on your list, so I'll call that a wash.
Is the extra range worth significantly more to you than the rocket/SB shots?
Your math is wrong, two dakka Redemptors is 404 points, 3 heavy bolter Mortis is 327.
And yeah, the increased ability to stay still and shoot at BS3+ is pretty big.
It's pretty awesome. Great counter to large flyers like the stormraven with it's strength 8 autocannons and helical targeting array. Can be a bullet hose as well with the twin heavy bolters and aiolos. Very survivable with it's invul and 14 wounds.
Yeah, it's benefits are kinda self explanatory: The arms alone are equivalent to a quad autocannon dread, but with +1 strength boosting flexibility nicely. Underneath it has a functional third weapon arm with twin heavy bolter, and whilst the missile launcher isn't as good as a normal Cyclone it's still pretty good. Significant firepower on a durable platform for a good price, even better in the spitfire edition and the anti-air rule is just frosting on the cake.
I was thinking of putting a captain by a pair of Mortis Dreads with Dual Heavy Plasma. I figure they should That should allow them to fire at Strength 8. Worst case scenario they would take 6 mortal wounds in one turn, if I rolled all 1s twice in a row. And in that case, you deserve to lose the dread.
This means I would be doing 2d3 Strength 8, AP -3 Damage 2. This should be decent amount of dakka.
Youn wrote: With my Raven Guard I was looking at possibly putting together a couple of Mortis Dreadnoughts.
Dual Twin Lascannons are 175 and seem a bit pricey for 1 model. I am kind of thinking of doing the conversion for Dual Mulit-Melta (129) or Dual Heavy Plasma Cannon (135).
Has anyone any experience with the Mortis?
yes, my friend was using a ravenguard lascannon Morris dread in our doubles games this weekend.
It was pretty good. The long range works really nicely with the RGCT. We worked out that nobody fired a shot at it in the 3 games we played. It did good damage throughout.
I don't recommend the other weapon options. Multi meltas are just worse, more expensive lascannons. And the dread would only have two instead of four. Plasma cannons are the same, but they also kill you.
I've used one in 6 games this weekend. Honestly I don't know if it will get another run out soon. It is spoiled by its weak ap. So many vehicles have a 3+ save and it just doesn't end up doing enough.
The other weapons seem pretty bad as well unfortunately. Not enough shots, doing not enough damage, costing too much.
The one good thing about it is that opponents seem to assume that it must be powerful, because it's a forgeworld model. Mine seems to attract a lot of hate, which it mostly shrugs off. It gets charged all the time, often by quite scary things, and they can never kill it, thanks to its 4++ and 14 wounds.
Given a choice, I'd recommend a contemptor mortis with lascannons. It's a bit more expensive than the standard mortis but hitting on a 2+ is great. Looks cooler than a standard dread as well.
Youn wrote: I was thinking of putting a captain by a pair of Mortis Dreads with Dual Heavy Plasma. I figure they should That should allow them to fire at Strength 8. Worst case scenario they would take 6 mortal wounds in one turn, if I rolled all 1s twice in a row. And in that case, you deserve to lose the dread.
This means I would be doing 2d3 Strength 8, AP -3 Damage 2. This should be decent amount of dakka.
You average 4 shots. So does a quad lascannon dread, and it doesn't blow itself up. The lascannon one costs more, but is vastly better. You've got even bigger problems if moving.
One thing the plasma dread can do is pop the wisdom of the ancients stratagem. If you've got cps to burn, it's not awful.
Yes, I have to agree with the repulsor being good. It's basically a Land Raider but better-- the only drawback of the Repulsor defensively vs shooting is a slightly worse save, but given most anti-tank weapons reduce that 2+ save to a 5+ anyway, having it be 6+ instead is hardly much of a loss.
changemod wrote: The other options I'd like to highlight are twin heavy bolter: Two of these on a Mortis gives you the cheapest dread in the game, and a pretty good anti-infantry platform. More efficient point for point and better range than the Redemptor, in fact.
Can you share your thoughts a bit more on this?
Three HB Mortis come out to roughly the same costs as 2 Dakka Redemptors (330 vs. 320).
Both are 36 HB-equivalent shots total, but you get the free rocket and storm bolter shots with the Redemptors.
2x7W vs 13W puts survivability slightly in favor of the Mortis.
Elite vs heavy slot being more beneficial depends on your list, so I'll call that a wash.
Is the extra range worth significantly more to you than the rocket/SB shots?
1 Dakka Redemptor costs 212. Though I prefer the 2 Stormbolters for the range which costs 204
Is Battlescribe data off? Mine with double Gatling and 2 SB is 160.
The trouble with the dakka redemptor, or indeed any dakka dread, is that SM infantry provides dakka. 15 intercessors for your troops gives you a bunch of dakka, for instance.
A dakka redemptor is comparable to inceptors. It's only a bit more expensive and has the same S5 shooting, plus its ccw, storm bolters and missile thing. The downside is not being able to deep strike, and getting -1 to hit on most guns if it moves.
On the whole redemptors do seem to do a job. Personally I think I prefer contemptors, for the fact that they hit on a 2+. But the 37 extra points does give you an awful lot of shooting. Even if some of it misses, lots of it will hit.
The contemptor is likely to win if they fight in melee I think. Better hitting and the invulnerable cancel out the 3 extra wounds.
So overall I think the contemptor is more focussed at doing the one job of bashing things in with its fist, while the redemptor is more of an all-rounder. Actually for my imperial fists the redemptor is probably better, as ignoring cover with all that anti-infantry shooting would do a lot.
I can't see any purpose in putting a plasma cannon on a redemptor, except to blow it up on purpose. Salamanders are perhaps an exception here. Salamanders CT is really good for any dread, really.
Here, actually: My blog post series on Dreadnought units. Bear in mind it's heavily written from the perspective of pure dread armies, so some bias to use there rather than general use.
Seems relevant enough to Space Marine tactics anyhow, and I alluded to it once already.
changemod wrote: Here, actually: My blog post series on Dreadnought units. Bear in mind it's heavily written from the perspective of pure dread armies, so some bias to use there rather than general use.
Seems relevant enough to Space Marine tactics anyhow, and I alluded to it once already.
changemod wrote: Here, actually: My blog post series on Dreadnought units. Bear in mind it's heavily written from the perspective of pure dread armies, so some bias to use there rather than general use.
Seems relevant enough to Space Marine tactics anyhow, and I alluded to it once already.
Godd article, thank you.
No Redemptor though?
That's a good post on dreadnoughts.
I think I'd simplify it somewhat, to say "just take contemptors". This is because I think that contemptors fill all of your dreadnought needs.
You're correct to identify the mortis contemptor as probably the best thing to stick lascannons onto. Note that it can now have its typhoon/cyclone missile launcher again. I'm not sure if it's worth the extra 50 points, or if doing so makes it too much of a target. Also, I think that Xiphons are an even better lascannon platform, for a very similar price.
I don’t particularly rate deredeos, and I’ve used mine a fair bit now. To be fair, I built mine for heresy with heavy flamers and they are now quite obviously the wrong choice. But the main complaint is that the anvillus autocannons just don’t have enough AP to be enough of a threat. This makes it hard to justify the deredeo against the contemptor mortis. The deredeo is tougher, but the mortis is significantly more dangerous to vehicles. My deredeo does fire its flamers a lot, because people charge it a lot in order to stop it from firing. I tend to think this is a waste of their time, due to the deredeo's toughness in cc and relative harmlessness, though I do enjoy lighting them on fire as they charge.
Note that you can give relics to the chaplain dreadnought. It's a space marine character, and that's all it needs to be - there's no limitation that you have to be alive. That said, there aren't many relics it can actually have, as it doesn't have the right weapons. There are a few though, like the armour indominatus, the salamanders mantle and the black templar hat.
If playing an all-dreadnought army I think salamanders become the clear preferred option. This goes especially for the ones that hit on 2s, and even more especially for redemptors. The plasma gun becomes a slightly less absurd choice on a salamanders redemptor - and indeed you could stick plasma guns on various other dreads if you felt like it, if using the salamanders CT. But any dread really benefits from that single reroll to hit and wound.
Mandragola wrote: I think I'd simplify it somewhat, to say "just take contemptors". This is because I think that contemptors fill all of your dreadnought needs.
Ha, nearly, yes. If going for a complete optimisation route the only non-Contemptor dreads you'd need to take are HQ's, Leviathans for being a terrifying fire magnet brick with an overpowered gun and maybe some of the cheaper boxes just for low point value.
I prefer more variation, but yeah.
I don’t particularly rate deredeos, and I’ve used mine a fair bit now. To be fair, I built mine for heresy with heavy flamers and they are now quite obviously the wrong choice. But the main complaint is that the anvillus autocannons just don’t have enough AP to be enough of a threat. This makes it hard to justify the deredeo against the contemptor mortis. The deredeo is tougher, but the mortis is significantly more dangerous to vehicles. My deredeo does fire its flamers a lot, because people charge it a lot in order to stop it from firing. I tend to think this is a waste of their time, due to the deredeo's toughness in cc and relative harmlessness, though I do enjoy lighting them on fire as they charge.
I'm beginning to doubt the efficiency of the missile launcher, though it looks silly without it. Besides that, consider it a more durable autocannon Contemptor with bonus heavy bolters, Skyfire, and a point of strength that makes killing T4 and threatening T7/8 vehicles a bit easier. From that perspective, it's basically a bargain.
If playing an all-dreadnought army I think salamanders become the clear preferred option. This goes especially for the ones that hit on 2s, and even more especially for redemptors. The plasma gun becomes a slightly less absurd choice on a salamanders redemptor - and indeed you could stick plasma guns on various other dreads if you felt like it, if using the salamanders CT. But any dread really benefits from that single reroll to hit and wound.
Yeah, if I play a game without my Bjorn proxy somewhere down the line I have a feeling they'll mysteriously become Salamanders sucessors. I'm a bit too enamoured with the idea of a captain dread though, and besides feel a bit dirty running all kinds of free bonuses my opponent doesn't get.
Hmm. Thinking... scouts supported by a lieutenant. Rerolling 1s to-wound allows for multiple chances to get the sniper rifle's additional mortal wound. Might be a good option considering how cheap they are, and they can support the scouts in close combat as well if equipped right. If you're already taking two or more units of sniper scouts, might as well use an Lt as both support for the scouts and a filler HQ to get another detachment and thus more CPs.
Stupid, stupid question: Is there a viable all-Dread stompy list? It would probably not be downright competitive, but could it work? I love the idea of Deredeo, Redemptors, Contemptors, etc all just wading through the small arms and blowing stuff up like a cheesy 90s cartoon.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Stupid, stupid question: Is there a viable all-Dread stompy list? It would probably not be downright competitive, but could it work? I love the idea of Deredeo, Redemptors, Contemptors, etc all just wading through the small arms and blowing stuff up like a cheesy 90s cartoon.
Thoughts? Ideas?
It certainly can. but it will have trouble with horde armies im sure. you just dont have the bodies to hold down objectives so you need to plan on killing everything instead.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Stupid, stupid question: Is there a viable all-Dread stompy list? It would probably not be downright competitive, but could it work? I love the idea of Deredeo, Redemptors, Contemptors, etc all just wading through the small arms and blowing stuff up like a cheesy 90s cartoon.
Thoughts? Ideas?
It certainly can. but it will have trouble with horde armies im sure. you just dont have the bodies to hold down objectives so you need to plan on killing everything instead.
That silly Redemptor looks like it could do some crowd control. Same with a Leviathan with a Stormcannon or GFB.
Yea, holding objectives though would be a challenge though.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Stupid, stupid question: Is there a viable all-Dread stompy list? It would probably not be downright competitive, but could it work? I love the idea of Deredeo, Redemptors, Contemptors, etc all just wading through the small arms and blowing stuff up like a cheesy 90s cartoon.
Thoughts? Ideas?
I'm using two Relic Contemptors because their speed doesn't degrade as they're shot at.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Stupid, stupid question: Is there a viable all-Dread stompy list? It would probably not be downright competitive, but could it work? I love the idea of Deredeo, Redemptors, Contemptors, etc all just wading through the small arms and blowing stuff up like a cheesy 90s cartoon.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Step one, make sure you have the forge world book, you need the variety.
Step 2: Detachments. You can run either the elite or the heavy support based one, depending on which type of dread you need more of. Once you reach about 2000 points though, you can expect to have about 10 dreads and be running out of slots. If you don't want to run two chaplain dreads, you're going to want to play blood angels for a librarian dread or space wolves for Bjorn. I personally went wolves because I love the idea of a captain dread HQ, but either way this will mean you lose out for now on stratagems and chapter tactics. If you are running vanilla marines, Salamanders are your best choice, though Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Ultramarines and White Scars are all good choices that'll effect your playstyle.
3: Composition: As someone already said, you'll need some good anti horde to shore up that weakness. Thankfully, heavy bolters and assault cannons are your cheapest ranged weapon option. Take lots of them. Autocannons are more of an all-rounder choice, but can help too, especially against heavier infantry.
In a 2000 point 10 dread list I tend to take about 4 purely shooty dreads and 2 purely melee dreads, with my chaplain, Bjorn and two others going mixed.
jcd386 wrote: You can also mix and match the chapters to some extent, and take techmarines as HQs if that's okay with your "pure" dread list.
Shooty RG dreads in the back, assaulty white scar, salamanders, or iron hands dreads up front, etc seems pretty good.
Just be careful with distinguishing them if you go for that. It's probably okay to say, bring a librarian and some furiosos or death company in your chapter's scheme because the models are clearly distinct, but otherwise I'd absolutely paint them with very clear distinctions if you're inclined that way.
jcd386 wrote: You can also mix and match the chapters to some extent, and take techmarines as HQs if that's okay with your "pure" dread list.
Shooty RG dreads in the back, assaulty white scar, salamanders, or iron hands dreads up front, etc seems pretty good.
Just be careful with distinguishing them if you go for that. It's probably okay to say, bring a librarian and some furiosos or death company in your chapter's scheme because the models are clearly distinct, but otherwise I'd absolutely paint them with very clear distinctions if you're inclined that way.
What is the most useful CT on a mostly Biker army? (I wanna commit and use the relevant Chapter decals on my own color scheme)
I would think RG, who can zoom around the battlefield collecting Objectives, once within 12 inches, you're in rapid range of special weapons plus its twin bolters anyway. And that ignores Warlord trait is awesome.
Then there's UM, with the Bikers good firepower, hopping out and shooting again is pretty good.
Lastly, Salamanders seem fun to get some re-rolls in the new re-roll hammer 40k.
Also, I know WS seem obvious, but my bikes are mostly plasma, and combi-weapon sergeants. Not an assault army.
If you're using minimum-sized plasma bike squads then salamanders would probably be best. Salamanders tend to be the best choice for armies with lots of small units, as you get a lot of free rerolls.
Ravenguard are great, but I'm pretty sure their stratagem only works for infantry. That limits what you can do with bikers. And plasma guys want to get within 12", so the CT isn't all that great either.
The ultramarines' ability to fall back and shoot is good - if you survive the fight. 3-model units may not do that very often. Plasma guns also hate firing at -1 to hit. That said, their stratagem to give you rerolls of 1s to hit is also pretty useful - though you may as well start out with salamanders CT in the first place and keep your CPs.
It's a shame that GW thinks that bikers are an assault unit, because otherwise they might have given white scar bikers a CT that was actually useful. Advancing and charging is very good for characters and command squads, but not for the fast attack bike squads.
For my Crimson Fists Lieutenant, should I give him a Storm Bolter or a Master-crafted Boltgun? Are the added shots better than doing two wounds? BTW, he will be running with Pedro Kantor, so he will be rerolling misses and getting Rerolls of 1s to Wounds regardless.
it really depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting a lot of two-wound models, the extra AP and damage on the MCBG makes it a winner. Otherwise, storm bolters.
Melissia wrote: it really depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting a lot of two-wound models, the extra AP and damage on the MCBG makes it a winner. Otherwise, storm bolters.
I have plenty of ways to deal with single wound models, so I think I am going to keep the MCBG. It goes well with Pedro's Dorn's Arrow.
Melissia wrote: it really depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting a lot of two-wound models, the extra AP and damage on the MCBG makes it a winner. Otherwise, storm bolters.
I have plenty of ways to deal with single wound models, so I think I am going to keep the MCBG. It goes well with Pedro's Dorn's Arrow.
The storm bolter is strictly better than a MCBG. There's no target against which it's better to do 2 damage, but have half as many shots. Even if you're fighting Primaris marines or something the storm bolter does equal damage, but with no problem firing at them if one is already wounded (when the second MCBG wound would be wasted). Storm bolters are twice as good against anything with 1 wound, and no worse against things with multiple wounds.
It doesn't matter much though. It's only one gun on a guy who will be in combat a lot of the time.
Desubot wrote: I wonder how useful TFC will be with the overall points reduction and the new stratagem that halves speed.
Yeah, TFC got a 13 point decrease per unit, just over 10 percent. Personally I like them because the techmarine gunner is great for repairing and it doesnt limit the ability of the TFC to fire. Ironclads got a much needed drop in points. 99 points for a barebones ironclad is rock solid!!
It's hard to see the TFC as a must take at the moment. The thing is just so vulnerable to being shot - though I suppose you can mitigate that by hiding it. It doesn't seem to do nearly enough damage either, in a game in which manticores and basilisks exist.
The stratagem is decent, and turns it into a unit to consider. It's nice that the gunner can fix stuff.
Is there a faq I missed on that? I assumed you could use the index or the codex, but would you be able to use units from the index that don't appear in the codex and still use codex units/rules?
Man, Centurion devastators got ridiculously overpriced. 7th edition I had 3 Cents, grav, missiles, omniscope, plus a tech marine/librarian with Hunters Eye, in a drop pod for 405 pts.
Now its 400 pts for just those same Centurions. Shelved.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Man, Centurion devastators got ridiculously overpriced. 7th edition I had 3 Cents, grav, missiles, omniscope, plus a tech marine/librarian with Hunters Eye, in a drop pod for 405 pts.
Now its 400 pts for just those same Centurions. Shelved.
It is pretty amazing how bad Centurions are and that they made them *more* expensive in the codex for some bizarre reason.
Ironclads got a much needed drop in points. 99 points for a barebones ironclad is rock solid!!
Yeah Ironclads are a bit of a sleeper hit. Way better imo than most other dreadnoughts due to that incredibly low point cost. However they aren't 99pts, you replace the DCCW (0 points) with hurricane bolter not the 48pt Seismic Hammer. Base cost is over 140pts.
Stupid question time - on characters like lieutenants for example who come with a piece of wargear that can be changed out, such as the master crafted bolter, can you just change it for one of the free wargear choices that he can select from and save the 2pts?
Bryan01 wrote: Stupid question time - on characters like lieutenants for example who come with a piece of wargear that can be changed out, such as the master crafted bolter, can you just change it for one of the free wargear choices that he can select from and save the 2pts?
Underneath all the gun stats there will be a line that says what a model can take. some say may take, some say replace. some times units have no options.
a normal marine lieuteant can replace his MC bolter for an item from the pistol melee or combi list
Bryan01 wrote: Stupid question time - on characters like lieutenants for example who come with a piece of wargear that can be changed out, such as the master crafted bolter, can you just change it for one of the free wargear choices that he can select from and save the 2pts?
You pay for all wargear on a model now rather than paying to change weapons, so yes there are units that go down in price when you select different wargear
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Verdict on running a Chaplain with Jump Pack and Power Fist (and Crozius, of course). I'm going to run my UM list with VV and want a chappy to help.
If you were wanting a powerfist on the squad at all and you wanted a chaplain then it's better on the chaplain than it is on any of the squad members, and i'd reccomend a chaplain anyway, i's a great cheap HQ
I dream of 405 point centurions. My las/missile ones are 465, and their omniscope does the same thing as my IF CT. A devastator centurion costs the same as a xiphon, and more than a dreadnought, before weapons.
The only way I can see to use centurions is to put them in a bunker. Or, for the same price, you could have 3 predators.
Ironclads are all right but contemptors are soooo much better. T8 is good but so is a 5++, S7(14), move of 9" and hitting on a 2+.
Youn wrote: So, on Raven Guard. Is it better to pay for the Jump Packs and place your from the shadows units 15"+ away at the start.
Or save the cost of the Jump packs and place them 9" away from the enemy?
Seems like staying out of rapid fire range and then using the superior movement of the JP go move into range is a better option. That way if you get stuck going second, you didn't waste your CP.
Okay so im kinda confused on successor chapter rules. Can I make a successor that has BT chapter tactics but still can take psykers, or does it have to keep the no psykers rule from BT
Basically if you're picking a successor they get everything the parent has, so if BLACK TEMPLARS can't have psykers, then neither can their descendants, the BASEDGIGI'S FINEST.
Bryan01 wrote: Stupid question time - on characters like lieutenants for example who come with a piece of wargear that can be changed out, such as the master crafted bolter, can you just change it for one of the free wargear choices that he can select from and save the 2pts?
Underneath all the gun stats there will be a line that says what a model can take.
some say may take, some say replace. some times units have no options.
a normal marine lieuteant can replace his MC bolter for an item from the pistol melee or combi list
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Verdict on running a Chaplain with Jump Pack and Power Fist (and Crozius, of course). I'm going to run my UM list with VV and want a chappy to help.
If you were wanting a powerfist on the squad at all and you wanted a chaplain then it's better on the chaplain than it is on any of the squad members, and i'd reccomend a chaplain anyway, i's a great cheap HQ
I just can't see the downside on this unit - Chaplain with JP, Crozius and PF is only 110 pts, str 10 in combat, re-rolling hits.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Verdict on running a Chaplain with Jump Pack and Power Fist (and Crozius, of course). I'm going to run my UM list with VV and want a chappy to help.
If you were wanting a powerfist on the squad at all and you wanted a chaplain then it's better on the chaplain than it is on any of the squad members, and i'd reccomend a chaplain anyway, i's a great cheap HQ
I just can't see the downside on this unit - Chaplain with JP, Crozius and PF is only 110 pts, str 10 in combat, re-rolling hits.
STR 8, it's also less now that a fist is only 12 not 20 points
Man, anyone else feel dirty for using the Auspex Scan strategem at this point in the release schedule?
Things will even out once everyone gets their wacky stratagem gotchas, but it's going to be hard to get the drop and charge on Space Marines due to this. I had someone try to drop in on my hell blasters only to get a face full of plasma. Every bit worth the 2 CP spent.
That does seem crazy for only 9 wounds! I guess they get the chapter tactic.......
Did Blizzard make them overpriced on purpose of I am missing there potential?
What game do you think this is?
Lol was playing Hearthstone while working on a list haha. Is the general concensus that Centurations are simply too expensive?
Well i dont think the assault ones are all that bad
213 points base for 9 t5 wounds 2+ save and 7 str 10 ap 4 damage 3 swings is pretty sick. + mass flamers or melta, and hurrican bolters or mortal wounds on charges.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Verdict on running a Chaplain with Jump Pack and Power Fist (and Crozius, of course). I'm going to run my UM list with VV and want a chappy to help.
If you were wanting a powerfist on the squad at all and you wanted a chaplain then it's better on the chaplain than it is on any of the squad members, and i'd reccomend a chaplain anyway, i's a great cheap HQ
I just can't see the downside on this unit - Chaplain with JP, Crozius and PF is only 110 pts, str 10 in combat, re-rolling hits.
STR 8, it's also less now that a fist is only 12 not 20 points
Doesn't the Crozius bonus of +1 Str ways apply, even when using other weapons? I thought it was a static effect.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Verdict on running a Chaplain with Jump Pack and Power Fist (and Crozius, of course). I'm going to run my UM list with VV and want a chappy to help.
If you were wanting a powerfist on the squad at all and you wanted a chaplain then it's better on the chaplain than it is on any of the squad members, and i'd reccomend a chaplain anyway, i's a great cheap HQ
I just can't see the downside on this unit - Chaplain with JP, Crozius and PF is only 110 pts, str 10 in combat, re-rolling hits.
STR 8, it's also less now that a fist is only 12 not 20 points
Doesn't the Crozius bonus of +1 Str ways apply, even when using other weapons? I thought it was a static effect.
No the crozius is a weapon like any other and you choose it or your powerfist
How well does horde marines work now? I've got a heap of black templars and I kinda want to just mass them up and march up the field. 6 squads of 5 initiates/5 neophytes with 2xfists and meltaguns, with Helbrecht, 3 chaplains and a banner in the middle. Can throw the Templar relic hat on the Ancient and the shield/armor on a chaplain. Maybe throw the emperors champion in there as big monster protection and make him the warlord for the larger glorious intervention bubble.
Emperors Champion was good when he cost 108pts. At 75pts now he's a steal, to the point I think GW decided that the chapter trait wasn't as powerful as the others so gave BT a bunch of free points to compensate
Badablack wrote: How well does horde marines work now? I've got a heap of black templars and I kinda want to just mass them up and march up the field. 6 squads of 5 initiates/5 neophytes with 2xfists and meltaguns, with Helbrecht, 3 chaplains and a banner in the middle. Can throw the Templar relic hat on the Ancient and the shield/armor on a chaplain. Maybe throw the emperors champion in there as big monster protection and make him the warlord for the larger glorious intervention bubble.
I think reivers are actually a great choice for black templars.
Vertrucio wrote: Man, anyone else feel dirty for using the Auspex Scan strategem at this point in the release schedule?
Things will even out once everyone gets their wacky stratagem gotchas, but it's going to be hard to get the drop and charge on Space Marines due to this. I had someone try to drop in on my hell blasters only to get a face full of plasma. Every bit worth the 2 CP spent.
This Stratagem is really GOOD! I played a IG list with 5 deep striking Plasma Gun units and he tried deep striking two within 12 of my Stormraven so he could rapid fire his plasma, I wiped out the first unit completely, and he had to pull back on the second as to not lose them as well and put himself out of rapid fire range. The Threat of this stratagem is amazing.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Stupid, stupid question: Is there a viable all-Dread stompy list? It would probably not be downright competitive, but could it work? I love the idea of Deredeo, Redemptors, Contemptors, etc all just wading through the small arms and blowing stuff up like a cheesy 90s cartoon.
Thoughts? Ideas?
I'm using two Relic Contemptors because their speed doesn't degrade as they're shot at.
BTW, it is completely absurd how resilient the relic contemptor is compared to redemptor. I've been building a contemptor and redempror side by side, and the contemptor is is tiny, yet, it is about as resilient as the redemptor and the relic variant is much more resilient.
BTW, it is completely absurd how resilient the relic contemptor is compared to redemptor. I've been building a contemptor and redempror side by side, and the contemptor is is tiny, yet, it is about as resilient as the redemptor and the relic variant is much more resilient.
Compare a rotary phone to a new smartphone. Bigger isn't always better.
Have any of you guys had much experience with the Apothecary yet?
I played 3 games with one yesterday and have to say I found the bringing a guy back on a 4+ pretty weak with how often you fail it and how often marine squads are simply wiped out. So much so i think I will be leaving him out of my future lists.
I didn't have any multi-wound models in my list for him to heal except for my HQs, which is probably the reason i found it so lackluster. Do you guys think they are only worth taking with bikes/cents/termies/etc mulri wound models, or maybe just not at all?
BTW, it is completely absurd how resilient the relic contemptor is compared to redemptor. I've been building a contemptor and redempror side by side, and the contemptor is is tiny, yet, it is about as resilient as the redemptor and the relic variant is much more resilient.
Thank you for answering the question for me.
Speed is more important to me because I WANT them to make melee. With Asterion in the equation it isn't hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wtwlf123 wrote: They're both bad, but the Primaris one is slightly more useful. I'd pass on Apothecaries in 8th.
The issue is they don't heal a lot for the price.
If they healed up to 3 wounds, and revived models got half their wounds rounded up, they'd be...better?
I think the Apotechary is damn good, at least when compared to the Ancient; the Ancient lets a dead guy attack on 4+, the Apotechary brings the dead guy back to life on 4+!
Crimson wrote: I think the Apotechary is damn good, at least when compared to the Ancient; the Ancient lets a dead guy attack on 4+, the Apotechary brings the dead guy back to life on 4+!
I played against a 3 knight list, a Chaos Khorne horde sort of list, and IG with a bunch of forge wold stuff with some units I didn't quite understand until it was too late (short story, don't let cyclops demolition vehicles blow up near you). I tabled the first two, and lost the third to the guy that ended up coming in first.
Some things I noticed in my games:
No surprise here, but Guilliman is amazing. Most of the people I played against were a bit upset at how good he is.
Grav cannons really pull their weight, even if you have to move sometimes and hit on 4s. The G-man rerolls obviously help here as well.
I need to remember to use the stratagems more. Having 10 CP and getting them back on a 5+ means I tended to have 4+ left at the end of each game. Looking back, there were a few places Orbital Bombard and Auspex Scan would have come in useful.
The apothecary was very lackluster without more than tac squads to heal.
The techmarine was slightly useful, but not very. D3 wounds is pretty random, and my vehicles tended to die before i couldn't fix them, since most decent players will try to focus things down.
The Librarian was somewhat useful with Smites and Psychic Scourge, and I like the utility of being able to shut down psykers and have nullzone available if i run into an invul save heavy situation, though I happened to not face any this time.
The thunder hammer captain is a solid melee unit. Can't really complain about his general performance much at all.
The preds, razors, and dreads are very effective at what they do, and keeping G-Man close by makes them pretty insane.
The scouts were great for keeping deepstrikers off my tanks and backline in 2 of my games.
I think next time I would drop the Apoth and Techmarine for another squad of tacs. I lose 1 CP for not having a 3rd detachment, but i think it would still be a net gain for the list.
Any thoughts on what other units are working / not working for you, what i could change for the better in my list, or what styles of SM lists you guys have been trying out?
I think my next plan is to try out a Lias Issodon Raptors list with 3x Devastaor squads with 4 Grav cannons each, or an imperial fist gunline with some sternguard.
What mission types were you playing in the tournament? In something like maelstrom do you think the relative lack of troops would be detrimental against another army with ObSec units?
Umm they were slightly different than the book missions but not much. No maelstrom stuff either, unfortunately.
In my games so far i have found that my troops die very quickly once they get out of their transports, so i am not convinced taking more than three 5 man tacs and two 5 man scout squads is really feasable in an ultramarine list with Gman taking up so many points. I have tried 4 tac squads and no scouts with some success, but the scouts really are great for stopping deepstriking nonsense, so i think I'll keep using them.
That being said, i think i have enough fire power to clear and then claim most objectives in a maelstrom situation. It seems like things die very quickly this edition, and Gman's reroll nonesense makes my shooting pretty devastating. I haven't played vs hordes lists much yet so maybe they will be slightly harder to shift in that situation.
How are you guys arming your tactical squads? Im thinking
10 man multi melta combi melta and melta gun with a power fist on the sarge
Another squad same as above minus the fist
Both in drop pods
3rd squad im thinking plasma gun + cannon
My experience so far suggests that all troop slots should now be filled with intercessors. It's really surprising just how much better they are than tacticals. They do the job that troops are required to do - get on an objective and stay there - very well. They kill a few things and can even fight a bit in cc.
Ravenguard intercessors are probably best. Imperial fist guys are good at killing other people's troops and ultramarines are best against rushing opponents.
Someone pointed out that iron hands intercessors are significantly tougher against 2-wound-dealing weapons. You have an 11/36 chance of stopping one of the wounds. If you do, it takes a second hit to kill the guy.
Salamanders, white scars and black templars give bonuses that help other units. They don't particularly benefit intercessors. White scars with assault bolters are quick I guess.
Guilliman makes it a bit hard not to play ultramarines. He's really that powerful.
My experience has been the opposite regarding core troops. One min squad of Intercessors and/or sniper scouts to camp an objective in cover is fine, but any more than that has been too costly. Regular Tactical Squads have been far more useful; a 5-man squad with a special and matching combi-weapon, riding in a Twin Assault Cannon Razorback. The special weapons are key, because it actually gives my Troops a job on the battlefield other than just "please don't die". The Razors really increase their survivability, mobility, and add quite a bit of dakka.
Outside of camping Ravenguard Intercessors or robust Iron Hands Intercessors, I prefer min squads of Tactical Marines as my core troops choices so far.
Do you transport units with your stormravens ?
I did some games with mine, using it as a transport, and it was quite useful.
But I am not certain it is always the best.
Not related but: I have been out of touch with 40k for almost 3 weeks, and now I keep reading about obsec units.
I didn't know it was a thing in 8th ed ?
I like tacticals with combi plasma, and either plasma gun or grav cannon. I prefer the grav cannon (the 4 shots males up for hitting on 4s imo), but both work pretty well.
I can see why people would like the durability of the intercessors, but their near complete lack of damage output is pretty disappointing. I've found that keeping tacticals in rhinos makes them quite durable, and when they do get out and fight they can actually kill things.
I don't think it's ever worth it to take a full 10 man tac squad, as taking two five mama let's you get another combi, and fills two of the three min troop slots needed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would be hesitant to put too many points into a storm raven + guys inside, since it makes it even more of a must kill target. Plus i can't think of too much id really want to put inside of it.
The new codexes reward troops that are in pure codex detachments (all space marine, chaos marines, or grey knights, etc) with a new version of obsec.
Hey folks, what does the hive mind codex astartes think of this:
Take 9 Sternguard Veterans with special issue boltguns.
Take one Captain with the Storm of Fire warlord trait (add Primarch's Wrath to taste).
Stick in a drop pod, shake well and deploy within 15" of something you want dead.
Apply Masterful Marksmanship for 1CP.
My back-of-a-napkin math gives this setup about 10 wounds against something T7 with a 3+ save (my back-of-a-napkin math was wrong, it's more like 4-5 wounds), which covers quite a few vehicles and big nasties. The real kicker here is the synergy between Storm of Fire (-1 additional AP on a wound roll of 6+) and Masterful Marksmanship (+1 to wound rolls on special issue boltguns, which already have -2 AP to begin with). This unit wounds most things on a 4+ or better and one third of those wounds are at -3 AP. It does this for under 350 points and it is no glass cannon, especially if deployed in cover (remember you have 15" rapid fire range) and as part of the main battle line rather than in a forlorn hope type suicide deployment.
Take 9 Sternguard Veterans with special issue boltguns.
Take one Captain with the Storm of Fire warlord trait (add Primarch's Wrath to taste).
Stick in a drop pod, shake well and deploy within 15" of something you want dead.
Apply Masterful Marksmanship for 1CP.
My back-of-a-napkin math gives this setup about 10 wounds against something T7 with a 3+ save, which covers quite a few vehicles and big nasties. The real kicker here is the synergy between Storm of Fire (-1 additional AP on a wound roll of 6+) and Masterful Marksmanship (+1 to wound rolls on special issue boltguns, which already have -2 AP to begin with). This unit wounds most things on a 4+ or better and one third of those wounds are at -3 AP. It does this for under 350 points and it is no glass cannon, especially if deployed in cover (remember you have 15" rapid fire range) and as part of the main battle line rather than in a forlorn hope type suicide deployment.
Nasty. I am tempted to test this with a Lias Issodon list too.
A rhino arguably works just as well as a drop pod.
Intercessors tend to beat sternguard, in my limited experience. I've seen a firefight between a bunch of ultramarine sternguard and some ravenguard intercessors who'd infiltrated into cover. Both were getting only 4+ saves but the ravenguard had two wounds each and the ultramarines only hit on a 4+.
Arguably, that just shows the benefit of the RG chapter tactic and the benefit of cover, but it's hard to pass up on a 2nd wound when the prices are so similar.
Mandragola wrote: A rhino arguably works just as well as a drop pod.
Intercessors tend to beat sternguard, in my limited experience. I've seen a firefight between a bunch of ultramarine sternguard and some ravenguard intercessors who'd infiltrated into cover. Both were getting only 4+ saves but the ravenguard had two wounds each and the ultramarines only hit on a 4+.
Arguably, that just shows the benefit of the RG chapter tactic and the benefit of cover, but it's hard to pass up on a 2nd wound when the prices are so similar.
I don't think this is a great comparison both units do such different things. The only thing intercessors reliably do is sit there and not die. Damage wise they are very poor.
Math says it takes 30, or 600 points of, intercessors rapid firing to kill 10 marines.
It takes 3 squads of 5 tac marines with a combi plasma and heavy grav cannons (324 points) to kill 5 primaris marines if they are both moving and not overcharging. If the grav cannon doesn't move and the plasma overcharges, they would kill 8.
The tacticals can also go in rhinos, keeping them safe from the enemy until the rhino dies.
Speaking of rhinos, tac squads or other marine squads are versatile, being able to put wounds on tanks and heavy infantry as well as normal infantry if needed. It takes 45 intercessors (900 points) rapid firing to kill a rhino.
It takes 5 moving not overcharging tac squads (540 points) or 3 not moving over charging (324 points) to kill a rhino.
The abundance of 2+ damage in lists makes the durability of primaris marines much less of an issue, and their lack of mobility means that it is likely the right weapons will be able to get into range. The durability of rhinos and the effectiveness of tac marine fire power makes them the superior troop choice in my opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I could see bringing some intercessors in a foot marine list, or a heavy primaris list, but i think scouts might still do the job better.
is it me or does the limitation for chapter tactics only require that a detachment only needs to contain the same chapter and can contain other imperial stuff other than other space marine chapters?
so say patrol detachment hq is an inquisitor, troops are all tacticals for imperial fists. so the tacticals still get ignore cover.
you would however lose out on objective secured though.
is it me or does the limitation for chapter tactics only require that a detachment only needs to contain the same chapter and can contain other imperial stuff other than other space marine chapters?
so say patrol detachment hq is an inquisitor, troops are all tacticals for imperial fists. so the tacticals still get ignore cover.
you would however lose out on objective secured though.
"...so long as every unit in that detachment is drawn from the same Chapter." So, I'm afraid not. This is also the issue with using Lias Issodon or Raven Guard Chapter Tactics instead of a drop pod, in that it forces the entire detachment into that Chapter Tactic. In my case, as an Imperial Fists player, I'd like to preserve the ignores cover as well as the option of adding exploding sixes if I'm feeling spendy with my command points Lias especially is one mean option though!
Switching out the pod for a rhino saves about 20 points but makes you lose out on deep strike, as well as render the unit vulnerable from turn one. A drop pod can't be blown up before it gets to move.
I've considered adding a Lieutenant to the mix, but his paltry re-rolls are not worth the loss of a Sternguard. One might spend a few points to give the captain a jump pack and squeeze a tenth Sternguard into the pod though.
The issue with sternguard in drop pods is the pod costs a lot, and sternguard don't really do that much damage to anything but light infantry. Mathematically, special issue bolt guns are just as good at killing marines as stormbolters are. Which is to say they are okay, but not good for much else.
10 rapid firing sternguard with no bonuses kill 4.44 marines. With the strategem for +1 to wound, they kill 5.9.with rerolls of 1 to hit or wound, they do 6.9, with 1s to hit and wound, they kill 8.06. Adding both reroll auras and the sternguard strat, and the IF bolter strat gets them up to 9.4. If they drop next to Robute and use the +1 wound strategem, they kill 10.53, which i think is the most buffs they can get, and it seems unlikely you could rely on that.
My point is none of these are very effective for putting about 300 points into. Killing 5-10 marines isn't terrible, but you have to consider that most valuable targets are more durable than marines. 6 marines becomes 3 terminators or primaris marines, or 2 paladins, and so on, so i just don't see it as being that cost effective.
My preferred option would be to instead take grav cannon devastators in the drop pod. They have more range, do the same damage as non buffed sternguard vs marines, and much more vs things with 3+ saves and more than 1 wound. You can also take 2 in one pod, halving the pod "tax." The range makes them less likely to die the next turn, and makes it easier to land them near characters for reroll auras. They arent as great for close combat, but sternguard are pretty terrible at that anyway.
I'm thinking of bringing a detachment of GKs to deep strike in support of my IF gunline. 10 strikes are 210, plus maybe a hammer on the sergeant. Use psybolt ammunition strat on the drop and put 40 hvy bolter shots into something. They work out cheaper than sternguard in a pod.
A battalion of GKs and one of marines doesn't leave much space for other stuff of course.
jcd386 wrote: My preferred option would be to instead take grav cannon devastators in the drop pod. They have more range, do the same damage as non buffed sternguard vs marines, and much more vs things with 3+ saves and more than 1 wound. You can also take 2 in one pod, halving the pod "tax." The range makes them less likely to die the next turn, and makes it easier to land them near characters for reroll auras. They arent as great for close combat, but sternguard are pretty terrible at that anyway.
That is a scary prospect indeed! It adds up to about 550 points with a jump pack captain attached (Geronimo!) but it does put out an awful lot of hurt exactly where you want it. Interesting...
Tommorow i'm going to play a 2000pts battle against a peculiar Craftworld Eldar player.
He really likes their heavy stuff: Fire Prisms, Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Wraithlords, Wraith Guard, Wraith Knights and even Forge World units like the Lynx and the Cobra.
So I sat down, looked at my Space Marine collection and tried to cram as many anti-tank weaponry as I could in my army list.
This is what I came up with:
Interdiction Force Vulkan's Hammer (Salamanders)
HQ
Terminator Captain Eligius
Power sword, Storm bolter
Dreadnought
Twin Lascannon, Dreadnought CCW, Heavy flamer
Dreadnought
Twin Lascannon, Missile launcher
5 Tactical Terminators
Cyclone Missile launcher
5 Tactical Terminators
Assault cannon
Troops
10 Tactical Marines
Melta gun, Multi-melta, Combi-melta, Power fist
Drop pod, Storm bolter
Heavy Support
8 Devastator Marines
4 Missile launchers
Razorback
Twin Lascannon
Predator Annihilator
Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons
The plan is to deep strike the Captain, Chaplain dread, Tactical Squad and the Terminator Squad with Assault cannon en masse in his flank. The rest of the army will deploy out of sight as well as they can and move in advantageous firing positions in my first turn. From there I'll concentrate my fire in one vehicle at the time and hope it's enough.
What do you think of my plan? How would you handle an Eldar player that likes to spam Grav tanks?
I think you're basic approach is correct. Counter tanks with lascannon spam. There isn't a lot more to it!
If you've got them, a predator squadron is excellent. Give your warlord the Storm of Fire trait and stand nearby, then trigger their killshot stratagem. It's brutal, especially with autocannon turrets on the predators.
jcd386 wrote: My preferred option would be to instead take grav cannon devastators in the drop pod. They have more range, do the same damage as non buffed sternguard vs marines, and much more vs things with 3+ saves and more than 1 wound. You can also take 2 in one pod, halving the pod "tax." The range makes them less likely to die the next turn, and makes it easier to land them near characters for reroll auras. They arent as great for close combat, but sternguard are pretty terrible at that anyway.
That is a scary prospect indeed! It adds up to about 550 points with a jump pack captain attached (Geronimo!) but it does put out an awful lot of hurt exactly where you want it. Interesting...
Or better yet, have them drop in with Lias Issodon!
Sorry if this has been answered already, but does The Shield Eternal relic have any effect on wounds suffered that are D1? If you suffer 10 damage from bolters, do you only take 5 wounds or is each individual damage from the bolter halved and then rounded up, so still taking 10 damage? Thanks!
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Have Contemptors lost the double Kheres Autocannon option? I don't see it in the Index.
They didn't have that option through the GW ones as far as I know. The FW one still have your back though.
Its not a hard conversion to do but the plastic contemptor kit only comes with one kheres assault cannon and a cc or melta gun option.
I was talking rules-wise.
Woops i was thinking of something else for some reason.
Though i was meaning that they removed that double kheres option from the codex because other than conversions or forge world you cant take two
also speaking of it.
i wonder whats better the Multi melta or the assault cannon.
9" movement and 2+ to hit is nothing to scoff at. and you are still running around with a 2+ to hit dreadnought CC weapon at STR 14
Probably depends the target. If you have enough Lascannons in your list you'd probably go with the Assault Cannon. If not, probably the Multi-Melta (which definitely does okay on a 3+ to hit, assuming you moved of course).
I'm tempted to run a unit of 10 with Camo Cloaks (or without, they'll be in ruins) with Sniper Rifles next to a Lieutenant for the potential mortal wounds (possibly with Jump Pack so I can land him wherever they ended up being deployed).
Would be with a White Scars Battalion (Outrider is good for Scars but I much prefer the extra two command points, just in case I desperately need a reroll). Have some Bikes (3 Plasma, 3 Grav and 3 Melta) and a Rhino full of 2x5 Flamer Tacticals to distract them from the Scouts picking off support characters.
Or I could just go extremely fluffy and have Land Speeders and a Stormtalon over the Scouts and Tacticals. Would certainly save on trying to find WS Rhino Doors (hopefully they'll get remade).
Speaking of, best place for White Scar transfers? Neither GW or FW seem to be doing them.
I'm tempted to run a unit of 10 with Camo Cloaks (or without, they'll be in ruins) with Sniper Rifles next to a Lieutenant for the potential mortal wounds (possibly with Jump Pack so I can land him wherever they ended up being deployed).
Would be with a White Scars Battalion (Outrider is good for Scars but I much prefer the extra two command points, just in case I desperately need a reroll). Have some Bikes (3 Plasma, 3 Grav and 3 Melta) and a Rhino full of 2x5 Flamer Tacticals to distract them from the Scouts picking off support characters.
Or I could just go extremely fluffy and have Land Speeders and a Stormtalon over the Scouts and Tacticals. Would certainly save on trying to find WS Rhino Doors (hopefully they'll get remade).
Speaking of, best place for White Scar transfers? Neither GW or FW seem to be doing them.
Good for objective camping and Obsec. The Missile launcher is a must have. Park 10 on a middle field objective and your opponent needs to wipe the lot to claim it.
I havent had much luck with the snipers as I play Eldar (and their Psyker characters have an annoying ignore Mortal wounds on a 3+ rule or something like that). They'd be great for taking down Nobz and Commisars and the like (and good against Marines and CSM to take down Aura granting characters)
I tend to agree that sniper scouts are a relatively poor option. they aren't useless, and you'll put a few wounds on characters, but you'll rarely kill them.
The trouble is that characters are really quite tough in 8th. If you come up against power-armoured opponents, or indeed stuff like tau commanders, then you'll rarely accomplish much.
They do have uses though. Lesser characters, like eldar warlocks and AM commissars are pretty vulnerable to being sniped, and it makes a big difference if they die. So I wouldn't say snipers are useless, just that their utility will vary according to your opponent - which means it's out of your control.
An easier way to remove a character is to have a flyer land behind them and put a few lascannon shots through them. Remember: if in doubt, shoot it with a lascannon.
No huge changes. Sergeants can have their combi-gravs back, and tactical sergeants can have melta bombs. Auxiliary grenade launchers now cost a point. Grenade harnesses are -1ap. A few other minor fixes.
It's just an errata, not a FAQ. If anything's unclear, tough - for now!
Is anyone really sure about how chapter mix-ups are handled rulewise?
An Example - ill take 2 Detachements of pure Imperial Fist Marines, 1 Detachement consisting IG Conscripts, Ultramarine Captain and IG Weapon Teams..
So.. my Captain is Ultramarine and i want him to be the Warlord - so i gain the Ultramarine Warlord Trait. Cause of my Imperial Fists Detachements i get their Chapter Tactic which is just affecting the 2 Detachements .. not the Ultra Captain.
I recommend buffing scouts with a Lieutenant, especially against MEQ. You need to maximize every chance you can to get sixes on to-wound rolls. And to maximize the Lieutenant's cost, you'll want three or more scout squads buffed.
A single squad of scouts will usually give a poor performance. Thankfully they're troops, so you can take three and a couple HQs to get CP.
Wumbaz wrote: Is anyone really sure about how chapter mix-ups are handled rulewise?
An Example - ill take 2 Detachements of pure Imperial Fist Marines, 1 Detachement consisting IG Conscripts, Ultramarine Captain and IG Weapon Teams..
So.. my Captain is Ultramarine and i want him to be the Warlord - so i gain the Ultramarine Warlord Trait. Cause of my Imperial Fists Detachements i get their Chapter Tactic which is just affecting the 2 Detachements .. not the Ultra Captain.
Is that a legal composition?
Yes. This is legal. You can also give the Ultramarine a Ultramarine relic, and the IFs a IF relic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can also take named chapter masters and then upgrade a captain to be another one as long as he is a different chapter than they are.
What kind of mileage have y'all been getting on plasma canons on Dev sqauds?
I think they look pretty cool and wanted to try them out but it looks like they basically do the same role as Hellblasters and I already own some of those from the starter set.
Is it just me or are Devestator Centurions horribly overcosted?
Assasult Centurions come in at 50 PPM and the Devestator variants come in at 80 PPM (base cost; no weapons).
They are identical in every other way, barring weapon load out options and the slot they fill (Assault are Elite and Devs are Heavy).
Surely thats a typo for the Devestator Centurions? At 80 PPM and featuring 2 x marines with dual LC, 1 x marine with dual HB, and 3 missile launchers and you're clocking in at around 300 points. For the same price (and the same slot) you get yourself a Land Raider with the same dakka, T8 and double the wounds.
Any reason Centurions increase in price by 30 PPM simply by being in a different slot?
It's basically a tax on not needing to move to do damage and a tax on being OP as balls last edition.
The first half of that is actually fine, you need a Stormraven or Land Raider for assault centurions but the second half is really bad.
Either way they pay too much to do what they do, if you're going to take centurions they're so expensive you basically have to invest in apothecary and ancient to make sure you can use them all game and now you've just added another 100+ points to the cost of the unit, really silly
GAdvance wrote: It's basically a tax on not needing to move to do damage and a tax on being OP as balls last edition.
Like I said. Compare the costing of 2 x twin las and 1 x twin bolter with a Land raider (same points cost, same weapons, same slot). You get T5, 9 wounds, 2+ save vs the Raiders 16 wounds, 2+ and T8. Both can move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty, and the Raider moves faster.
The raider degrades as it loses wounds, but the Centurions degrade with every 3 lost as well (one dies).
The Centurions can benefit from CT and cover, but otherwise the Raider is clearly the better choice.
It makes no sense as well with Assault Centurions (same stats) costed 30 PPM cheaper. I cant help but feel it's a typo. If they were costed the same then 3 x Cent Devs (2 x twin LC and 1 x twin HB, 3 x Missile launchers) come out at just under 300 points instead of 360 odd. Still a lot of points, but probably ball park with the Raider.
The first half of that is actually fine, you need a Stormraven or Land Raider for assault centurions but the second half is really bad.
Assault Centurions are actually costed about right. I use (3 x Hurricane Bolter, 2 x melta, 4 x flamer) on my Salies army and they work OK. (Stormraven drop with Vulcan Hestan for the re-rolls, an apothecary to keep them up, and an ancient for a shot when they die).
Either way they pay too much to do what they do, if you're going to take centurions they're so expensive you basically have to invest in apothecary and ancient to make sure you can use them all game and now you've just added another 100+ points to the cost of the unit, really silly
Exactly.
I just cant fathom why the Devastators cost 30 PPM more than the Assault guys without weapons. They have identical stats.
Wumbaz wrote: Is anyone really sure about how chapter mix-ups are handled rulewise?
An Example - ill take 2 Detachements of pure Imperial Fist Marines, 1 Detachement consisting IG Conscripts, Ultramarine Captain and IG Weapon Teams..
So.. my Captain is Ultramarine and i want him to be the Warlord - so i gain the Ultramarine Warlord Trait. Cause of my Imperial Fists Detachements i get their Chapter Tactic which is just affecting the 2 Detachements .. not the Ultra Captain.
Is that a legal composition?
Yes. This is legal. You can also give the Ultramarine a Ultramarine relic, and the IFs a IF relic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can also take named chapter masters and then upgrade a captain to be another one as long as he is a different chapter than they are.
Not quite. Your warlord unlocks relics. You get a space marine relic if your warlord is a space marine. You don't get one relic per detachment.
You can have two chapter masters but you can only use the stratagem once. You can have say Shrike and then upgrade an imperial fist guy to CM.
In the example above, the imperial fiats obviously wouldn't benefit from the ultramarine captain's aura. And he wouldn't get his chapter tactic due to not being in a detachment of only ultramarines - though he'd have access to the sanctic halo if you wanted. So it's a legal set up but not an especially useful one.
Personally I'd keep all my marines in marine detachments and maybe have something like an inquisitor, tempestor prime or (most logically with conscripts) commissar lord lead an allied detachment.
Has anyone else had good luck with a trio of Quad-Las Predators souped up with Killshot and a Chapter Master/Lieutenant combo? It's expensive and very glass-cannony, but the times when I managed to actually shoot it off, I've consistently gotten a MASSIVE return on my investment.
I'll put it this way: Without this setup, a Predator will do 5 wounds to a T6/7/8 vehicle with a 3+ save.
With this setup, that number skyrockets to a whopping 12. More than double the damage. (Heck, even the Storm Bolter will wound T7 vehicles on 4s and do 2 damage, and the ability buffs Hunter-Killer missiles as well for extra potency.)
With three of these souped-up Predators all working together, putting out 12 shots that wound on 2s and get +1 Damage, I've had great success... As long as my opponent doesn't get wise and blow up a Predator before I have the opportunity to fire.
stratigo wrote: Pre game strategems aren't limited as far as I know.
Not normally, but the chapter master one can only be used once. It says so on the stratagem itself. It also says you can only have one chapter master from any given chapter.
Waaaghpower wrote: Has anyone else had good luck with a trio of Quad-Las Predators souped up with Killshot and a Chapter Master/Lieutenant combo? It's expensive and very glass-cannony, but the times when I managed to actually shoot it off, I've consistently gotten a MASSIVE return on my investment.
I'll put it this way: Without this setup, a Predator will do 5 wounds to a T6/7/8 vehicle with a 3+ save.
With this setup, that number skyrockets to a whopping 12. More than double the damage. (Heck, even the Storm Bolter will wound T7 vehicles on 4s and do 2 damage, and the ability buffs Hunter-Killer missiles as well for extra potency.)
With three of these souped-up Predators all working together, putting out 12 shots that wound on 2s and get +1 Damage, I've had great success... As long as my opponent doesn't get wise and blow up a Predator before I have the opportunity to fire.
I haven't, but a friend has run them with autocannon turrets. He's had similar results. Massive damage is dealt, but they suffer if picked on.
Point for point, it looks like predators using killshot are among the best AT damage dealers available to marines. Storm of fire raises that even higher. But yes, they are somewhat vulnerable to getting one of the predators taken out. This formation forces you to castle up a bit, which is a bit limiting.
I guess one solution would be to take more predators. They seem decent even without the stratagem. That becomes a lot of tanks though.
stratigo wrote: Pre game strategems aren't limited as far as I know.
Not normally, but the chapter master one can only be used once. It says so on the stratagem itself. It also says you can only have one chapter master from any given chapter.
Waaaghpower wrote: Has anyone else had good luck with a trio of Quad-Las Predators souped up with Killshot and a Chapter Master/Lieutenant combo? It's expensive and very glass-cannony, but the times when I managed to actually shoot it off, I've consistently gotten a MASSIVE return on my investment.
I'll put it this way: Without this setup, a Predator will do 5 wounds to a T6/7/8 vehicle with a 3+ save.
With this setup, that number skyrockets to a whopping 12. More than double the damage. (Heck, even the Storm Bolter will wound T7 vehicles on 4s and do 2 damage, and the ability buffs Hunter-Killer missiles as well for extra potency.)
With three of these souped-up Predators all working together, putting out 12 shots that wound on 2s and get +1 Damage, I've had great success... As long as my opponent doesn't get wise and blow up a Predator before I have the opportunity to fire.
I haven't, but a friend has run them with autocannon turrets. He's had similar results. Massive damage is dealt, but they suffer if picked on.
Point for point, it looks like predators using killshot are among the best AT damage dealers available to marines. Storm of fire raises that even higher. But yes, they are somewhat vulnerable to getting one of the predators taken out. This formation forces you to castle up a bit, which is a bit limiting.
I guess one solution would be to take more predators. They seem decent even without the stratagem. That becomes a lot of tanks though.
Hmmm, it seems you are right. Odd limitation that is.
Wumbaz wrote: Is anyone really sure about how chapter mix-ups are handled rulewise?
An Example - ill take 2 Detachements of pure Imperial Fist Marines, 1 Detachement consisting IG Conscripts, Ultramarine Captain and IG Weapon Teams..
So.. my Captain is Ultramarine and i want him to be the Warlord - so i gain the Ultramarine Warlord Trait. Cause of my Imperial Fists Detachements i get their Chapter Tactic which is just affecting the 2 Detachements .. not the Ultra Captain.
Is that a legal composition?
Yes. This is legal. You can also give the Ultramarine a Ultramarine relic, and the IFs a IF relic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can also take named chapter masters and then upgrade a captain to be another one as long as he is a different chapter than they are.
Not quite. Your warlord unlocks relics. You get a space marine relic if your warlord is a space marine. You don't get one relic per detachment.
You can have two chapter masters but you can only use the stratagem once. You can have say Shrike and then upgrade an imperial fist guy to CM.
In the example above, the imperial fiats obviously wouldn't benefit from the ultramarine captain's aura. And he wouldn't get his chapter tactic due to not being in a detachment of only ultramarines - though he'd have access to the sanctic halo if you wanted. So it's a legal set up but not an especially useful one.
Personally I'd keep all my marines in marine detachments and maybe have something like an inquisitor, tempestor prime or (most logically with conscripts) commissar lord lead an allied detachment.
I'm right, but maybe i wasnt clear enough. The second or third relic would be from the strategem, not one per detachment. They're isn't anything saying you can't give relics to another SM chapter model.
You can have all / any of the named chapter masters + one more upgraded one. Obviously their auras only effect their chapters, though.
What are the thoughts on hunter-killer missiles when you've got a so-so chance of going first?
6pts for 1 shot doesn't compare too bad vs 25pts for a regular missile launcher which isn't likely to live to shoot 5+ times, in my mind. Knowingly going second I wouldn't bother, I'd assume my vehicles would be shot up, but I'm surprised they don't show more in low deployment count lists or lists assuming a roll-off for first turn.
I don't think any opponent will want to blow up rhinos on turn 1 unless the cargo is high value, if you have any other vehicles those are likely a higher priority. So the hunter-killer missile is very likely going to get to fire if mounted on a rhino.
sossen wrote: I don't think any opponent will want to blow up rhinos on turn 1 unless the cargo is high value, if you have any other vehicles those are likely a higher priority. So the hunter-killer missile is very likely going to get to fire if mounted on a rhino.
Rhinos for sure, if I had 6pts I'd stick them on there. I'm more asking about say Razorbacks or Preds where they're already decent targets and the HK might not live to fire if going second. But I barely see them in low drop lists either.
sossen wrote: I don't think any opponent will want to blow up rhinos on turn 1 unless the cargo is high value, if you have any other vehicles those are likely a higher priority. So the hunter-killer missile is very likely going to get to fire if mounted on a rhino.
Rhinos for sure, if I had 6pts I'd stick them on there. I'm more asking about say Razorbacks or Preds where they're already decent targets and the HK might not live to fire if going second. But I barely see them in low drop lists either.
Its a Heavy weapon(right?)
i figure the best places to put them are on land raider since they benefit from potms and on tanks that are not moving.
sossen wrote: I don't think any opponent will want to blow up rhinos on turn 1 unless the cargo is high value, if you have any other vehicles those are likely a higher priority. So the hunter-killer missile is very likely going to get to fire if mounted on a rhino.
Rhinos for sure, if I had 6pts I'd stick them on there. I'm more asking about say Razorbacks or Preds where they're already decent targets and the HK might not live to fire if going second. But I barely see them in low drop lists either.
They are probably pretty good if you have a lot of vehicles, as most of them are likely to shoot. The most I guess you would probably be able to put in a list is 8 or so, so i guess you might not miss the 40 points for a pretty reasonable alphastrike.
You can't really compare them directly to a 25 point missile and say the missile costs too much unless it shoots 5 times, as the devastator unit does a lot of things that a hunter killer cant, like shoot more than once, hold an objective, soak up enemy fire, etc. Obviously both things have their place.
What're everyone's thoughts on the FW Relic Dreadnoughts?
Relic Contemptors with two Twin Lascannons looks very solid; for about 10% more than a 4 Lascannon Devastator squad, you trade a one time extra shot and a small amount of survivability (5 single wounds vs 12 combined) for a 5+ Invuln, 6+ FNP, better immunity to small arms fire, and better accuracy on the move and standing still.
Relic Doredeos seem like nice, all around autocannon boats that happen to get an extra advantage vs flyers; that said, they can be a bit short range, and immobile at times - however, you can trade the Missile Launcher for a Pavaise - 5+ Invulnerable saves for surrounding units? Yes, please. As an Ork player, I'm loving the idea of a dakka boat+KFF dreadnought. Plus, couple that Pavaise with the Relic Strategem, you have a very nice centerpiece for your army. However, I'm concerned about an autocannon's actual damage output - 2damage doesn't scale nicely into vehicle wounds, especially when the save is only -1. Relic Leviathans offer a lot more damage output (20 Autocannon shots vs 8) at -2AP instead of -1AP, but the range is 12" less, and doesn't get the +1 vs flyers (both relevant considering how mobile flyers are); at a minimal price increase - but they also get a survivability increase too... that said, Relic Doredeos are Elites instead of Heavy Support, which offers alternative options for list building.
Relic Leviathans are essentially a Land Raider+Terminator rolled into a dreadnought; as someone who loves all three units, the thought sounds fun, and they have all sorts of great weapon combinations. Admittedly, they're very expensive in any loadout - they'll be a primary target, and you'll have to get real lucky with your invulnerable saves to make it out alive against the enemy army.
Of course, as Relic units, you can only take a limited number (3 per detachment at most); and requires you to take other same-role units, which is its own issue.
However, one thing I'm REALLY thinking about is - as dreadnoughts, they get access to Chapter Tactics.
Raven Guard (plus potentially Smoke Launchers) can add a lot of survivability if you run a shooting Relic dreadnought, and Salamanders increases the damage output (moreso for Lascannon Relic Contemptors than ones with more dakka); one of the major concerns I was seeing was if dual-ranged weapon dreadnoughts got tied up in melee - normally, I'd overlook the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, but here it looks like it could shine especially; being able to fall back and unleash hell could turn the tides.
The Imperial Guard one gives a little more punch versus models in cover, but compared to the others, probably isn't as useful. The Iron Hands tactic grants FNP, effectively turning Relic Dreadnoughts into mini Leviathans. That said, it's still a 6+. The rest are decent if you run Relic Dreadnoughts in melee configurations, but I'm not sold on that concept without a reliable way to deliver them to the front lines.
I would like to ask for advice on dealing with tau lists using deep striking crisis suits, spammed drones and Y'vahra riptide, the forge world variant of riptide suit.
As usual, I was running a following 2K Iron Hands list with multiple dreadnoughts and non-transport tanks.
Common Faction Keywords : Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Iron Hands
1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)
+ Heavy Support +
XV107 R'varna Battlesuit [19 PL, 439pts]: Advanced targeting system, Multi-tracker
The game was Big Guns Never Tire mission from Eternal Wars.
While this meant I had an edge in controlling objectives, it also meant my opponent had greater source of kill points, as I had 4 heavy support choices.
My opponent had fewer drops than me, and he took the first turn as I failed to seize the initiative.
Long story short, I conceded at the end of 2nd battle round as I was nearly tabled.
His commanders and crisis suits decimated a dreadnought, two vindicators on the turn they were set up on the battlefield.
Y'vahra alone wiped out the venerable dreadnought and the redemptor dreadnought easily.
R'varna did not perform well, but it rarely mattered as my army was already crippled.
I heard about the drone saviour protocol before, and tried to whittle down as many drones as possible.
After the devastating tau alpha strike however, my firepower wasn't enough to remove many drones.
When I conceded at the end of battle round two, I only had a drop pod, a librarian and a thunderfire cannon.
Both riptides had 2 wounds chipped off.
My opponent had lost less than ten drones total.
There might be some actions I could have taken to mitigate the alpha strike.
Bubble wrapping vindicators with dreadnoughts and other units, for example.
If my vindicators survived, I might have had the chance to unleash linebreaker bombardment.
However I am not sure how many bodies I need to reliably protect my tanks, against at least 8 18" fusion blasters.
Using Auspex Scan to intercept deep striking crisis suits might be an alternative.
But then again it might be ineffective, as the crisis units contain drones to soak up the wounds from lascannons and demolisher cannons.
Not to mention my units suffering -1 to Hit rolls when using Auspex Scan.
If I were to face similar tau list again soon, what list and tactics would be effective?
Currently, my space marine collection includes tactical and devastator squads with meltaguns, grav cannons, drop pods, and heavy support tanks of all kinds.
But I do not own special characters, rhinos, razorbacks and most of the primaris collection.
And unfortunately, I do not have enough money to add much more into my collection for a while.
Therefore, I do not think using typical space marine build involving Guilliman is feasible.
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: I would like to ask for advice on dealing with tau lists using deep striking crisis suits, spammed drones and Y'vahra riptide, the forge world variant of riptide suit.
As usual, I was running a following 2K Iron Hands list with multiple dreadnoughts and non-transport tanks.
Common Faction Keywords : Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Iron Hands
1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)
+ Heavy Support +
XV107 R'varna Battlesuit [19 PL, 439pts]: Advanced targeting system, Multi-tracker
The game was Big Guns Never Tire mission from Eternal Wars.
While this meant I had an edge in controlling objectives, it also meant my opponent had greater source of kill points, as I had 4 heavy support choices.
My opponent had fewer drops than me, and he took the first turn as I failed to seize the initiative.
Long story short, I conceded at the end of 2nd battle round as I was nearly tabled.
His commanders and crisis suits decimated a dreadnought, two vindicators on the turn they were set up on the battlefield.
Y'vahra alone wiped out the venerable dreadnought and the redemptor dreadnought easily.
R'varna did not perform well, but it rarely mattered as my army was already crippled.
I heard about the drone saviour protocol before, and tried to whittle down as many drones as possible.
After the devastating tau alpha strike however, my firepower wasn't enough to remove many drones.
When I conceded at the end of battle round two, I only had a drop pod, a librarian and a thunderfire cannon.
Both riptides had 2 wounds chipped off.
My opponent had lost less than ten drones total.
There might be some actions I could have taken to mitigate the alpha strike.
Bubble wrapping vindicators with dreadnoughts and other units, for example.
If my vindicators survived, I might have had the chance to unleash linebreaker bombardment.
However I am not sure how many bodies I need to reliably protect my tanks, against at least 8 18" fusion blasters.
Using Auspex Scan to intercept deep striking crisis suits might be an alternative.
But then again it might be ineffective, as the crisis units contain drones to soak up the wounds from lascannons and demolisher cannons.
Not to mention my units suffering -1 to Hit rolls when using Auspex Scan.
If I were to face similar tau list again soon, what list and tactics would be effective?
Currently, my space marine collection includes tactical and devastator squads with meltaguns, grav cannons, drop pods, and heavy support tanks of all kinds.
But I do not own special characters, rhinos, razorbacks and most of the primaris collection.
And unfortunately, I do not have enough money to add much more into my collection for a while.
Therefore, I do not think using typical space marine build involving Guilliman is feasible.
There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.
Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.
Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.
If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option
the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns
madtankbloke wrote: There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.
Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.
Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.
If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option
the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns
Thank you for providing your insights.
Using scout squads for screening is something I never thought of, even though I was well aware of their deployment rules.
Your remarks on low number of models in my army, and the generalist nature of dreadnoughts, shortcomings of short-ranged vindicators are all spot on.
As I was intent on putting an army of Iron Hands tanks(esp. vindicators) and dreadnoughts on the table rather than fielding a competitive army, having my army tabled must have been inevitable.
Unfortunately, I don't think I can include much needed units you have proposed in a short period.
I do not have enough cash to spend on miniatures for a while, and I do not like how some of the models look.(For example I am not fond of the stubby scout squad)
However I truly appreciate your advice, and I will try to play better next time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I revised my list after reading madtankbloke's comments.
The list is intended as TAC, but I also tried my best to reflect madtankbloke's comments as best as I can.
Chapter Tactics : Iron Hands
1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)
Unfortunately, despite how useful scouts would be were they in my list I currently do not have them.
Nor will I be able to get my hands on them any soon.
So while the list contains more bodies than it did before, its ability to deny deep strike would be much worse than the list with scouts.
Furthermore, I still included dreadnoughts for additional lascannons and anti-infantry firepower. The latter are provided by gatling shots from the redemptor.
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons would be more efficient, but as with scouts I am unlikely to get the models any soon.
The odd land speeder is in the list to grab objectives in maelstrom missions, as players around me play this format most frequently.
madtankbloke wrote: There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.
Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.
Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.
If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option
the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns
Thank you for providing your insights.
Using scout squads for screening is something I never thought of, even though I was well aware of their deployment rules.
Your remarks on low number of models in my army, and the generalist nature of dreadnoughts, shortcomings of short-ranged vindicators are all spot on.
As I was intent on putting an army of Iron Hands tanks(esp. vindicators) and dreadnoughts on the table rather than fielding a competitive army, having my army tabled must have been inevitable.
Unfortunately, I don't think I can include much needed units you have proposed in a short period.
I do not have enough cash to spend on miniatures for a while, and I do not like how some of the models look.(For example I am not fond of the stubby scout squad)
However I truly appreciate your advice, and I will try to play better next time.
You can use you tactical marines as screening units as well, you just need to trim some of the toys off them to get costs down (those combi weapons for example). The melta-guns are take it or leave it IMO. They will be great if they survive the opening volley, but I wouldn't place odds on that.
Also, welcome to Alpha strike, the edition!
Another thing that drives me nuts with your list is the number of HQ choices. My 1500 point army only uses 1 detachment (vanguard) and 1 HQ. You've got 5 guys here. Captain runs 110ish, Libby is probably 90-100, Techy is ~100? and the lieutenants are about 130ish together? That's 420+ points on guys that can get vaporised by 1 fusion blaster. I'd encourage folding some of your detachments together (cause who needs command points if you have nothing to use them on?), pitch all but 2 of the HQ (Cap and techmarine?), and use those ~200 points to build your screen.
Also wanna note; I think Vindicators are mediocre. Decent staying power for their points, but weak sauce damage output.
All your vehicles should run storm botlers and hunter/killer missiles if able. 8 points for 4 bolt shots and a krak missile is.....really nice. Those storm bolters are great for thinning out drones, and those missiles can bury suits afterwards. Again, it's alpha strike edition so you want to cram as much firepower into the first 2 turns as possible and HK missiles are a great buy for that purpose.
Carnage43 wrote: Another thing that drives me nuts with your list is the number of HQ choices. My 1500 point army only uses 1 detachment (vanguard) and 1 HQ. You've got 5 guys here. Captain runs 110ish, Libby is probably 90-100, Techy is ~100? and the lieutenants are about 130ish together? That's 420+ points on guys that can get vaporised by 1 fusion blaster. I'd encourage folding some of your detachments together (cause who needs command points if you have nothing to use them on?), pitch all but 2 of the HQ (Cap and techmarine?), and use those ~200 points to build your screen.
You have a point about cutting out unnecessary characters in the list.
However I found lieutenants' tactical precision aura to be very useful, especially when my high strength weapons usually wound targets on 3+.
I will include them in the list for a while.
madtankbloke wrote: There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.
Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.
Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.
If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option
the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns
Thank you for providing your insights.
Using scout squads for screening is something I never thought of, even though I was well aware of their deployment rules.
Your remarks on low number of models in my army, and the generalist nature of dreadnoughts, shortcomings of short-ranged vindicators are all spot on.
As I was intent on putting an army of Iron Hands tanks(esp. vindicators) and dreadnoughts on the table rather than fielding a competitive army, having my army tabled must have been inevitable.
Unfortunately, I don't think I can include much needed units you have proposed in a short period.
I do not have enough cash to spend on miniatures for a while, and I do not like how some of the models look.(For example I am not fond of the stubby scout squad)
However I truly appreciate your advice, and I will try to play better next time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I revised my list after reading madtankbloke's comments.
The list is intended as TAC, but I also tried my best to reflect madtankbloke's comments as best as I can.
Chapter Tactics : Iron Hands
1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)
Unfortunately, despite how useful scouts would be were they in my list I currently do not have them.
Nor will I be able to get my hands on them any soon.
So while the list contains more bodies than it did before, its ability to deny deep strike would be much worse than the list with scouts.
Furthermore, I still included dreadnoughts for additional lascannons and anti-infantry firepower. The latter are provided by gatling shots from the redemptor.
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons would be more efficient, but as with scouts I am unlikely to get the models any soon.
The odd land speeder is in the list to grab objectives in maelstrom missions, as players around me play this format most frequently.
Just an option mind you, but I remember back in the day buying a single box of cadian imperial guard and then using bits from the box to make them into space marine scouts with a lot of success for cheap. I used to run 2 full scout squads from that set and they worked well and none of my opponents ever had an issue with them. Granted I had to do a lot of converting but still I thought they looked better than the scout options for the time. (This was back in 4th so YMMV). Also this assumes you have bits lying around to do this with.
Gl though, I hope you let us know how it goes next time. Pinko Tau must pay lol.
Tried adding a BT chapter master with storm of fire and the BT helm last night. Makes a good mini-guilleman. Having PF/SS (Would take TH but model is PF) and being on a bike means he can move quickly to cover any area within his fire support bubble, and can deal with most threats.
Played a ven dread, wasn't impressed. Think you need 2+, and they need to be gundreads or melee dreads. Gundreads seem mostly overshadowed by preds, though there are advantages to dreads (No diminishing stats, chapter tactics, etc). Pairs of white scars contemptors could be pretty scary, if you have enough target saturation to keep them safe.
10x Van Vets with JP and 1x relic blade have been pretty solid. Been keeping them out of LOS and using them as a counter assault unit. They're not particularly expensive, and throw out a pretty solid amount of attacks, especially when supported by a JP captain.
LRC puts out a lot of shooting, is durable as hell, but becomes an expensive mobile wall once it gets charged. Not sold on it, but has potential.
Had 2x5 company vets in the aforementioned LRC, with the captain and a chaplain. The ability to eat wounds for the chars helps with snipers, they have 4 attacks (Either from 2 chainswords or the bolt pistol shot, depending on kit) for 16 ppm, which is pretty efficient for SM. Considered giving a bunch storm bolters, 3A each and 4 shots at 12" for 18ppm seems pretty fair.
Thoughts right now on a possible 2k list;
Captain on bike, PF, SS (Storm of Fire, Chapter Master, Black Templar helm relic)
Captain with JP, TH, SS Emperor's Champion
Battalion means I have 12 CP to start, 3 for the chapter master, and I can spend 1 CP to throw the Shield Eternal or Armor Indom on the JP captain. Points are tight for upgrades, I stripped everything off the melee crusader squad to fit all the elites and HKM on all my fire support vehicles. I could cut the 6x HKM and get 36 pts, which would let me upgrade the company vet sgts to thunderhammers, maybe throw a flamer in the crusader squad or some storm bolters in the vets?
madtankbloke wrote: There are a number of issues that I think you need to address, most important of which is properly screening your units so that opponents will find it a lot harder to Alpha strike you with deep-strikes as seems to be the case. Scouts are the best tool a pure SM army has, as they can be deployed anywhere that isn't within the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" away from an enemy unit. As deep striking in general cannot be within 9" of an enemy unit, if you deploy them 18" away from your front line, you can create up to a 28" or so buffer where enemies cannot drop in unannounced. potentially, 2 units of 5 scouts deployed at max coherency, 9 inches apart, can create a 35" long, 28" deep dead-zone in front of your army where your opponent cannot deep-strike in without first clearing them out, and set you back a mere 110 points into the bargain. An entire Tactica on screening could be written i'm sure, but the important thing is to keep the enemy out of effective range of your key units.
Tau Drones are both a blessing and a curse for a Tau player. Gun drones in particular are some of the most points efficient shooting they have, but become seperate units when deployed. this means that whilst they can soak your most effective anti-battlesuit shooting, they can also be targetted individually, and have to remain relatively close to the units they are protecting to be any use. So, if you are wanting to take out the crisis team, consider first knocking the drones down with massed fire, then slapping the crisis suits with lascannons to hopefully one shot them. The predator autocannon is particularly effective at taking down crisis suits with its fixed 3 damage.
Your army is also very, very small for 2000 points, and heavily weighted towards vehicles. you are lacking numbers of boots on the ground. this means your infantry are very vulnerable to getting wiped out in short order, particularly as you don't have rhino's or razorbacks to protect them first turn. You may also find that whirlwinds are very useful, they can shoot without LOS, average 7 shots a turn (with castellan missiles). As to the dreadnoughts, they are seemingly the only dedicated anti tank units you have (Vindicators are too short ranged to be really effective) and with mixed armament are more generalist than you might like, if you can i would make at least one a Mortis dread with 2 twin lascannons, and then don't move unless you have to as dreadnaughts now suffer from modifiers to hit. The Rifleman dread was in the index, but not the codex but is also a very effective fire support unit as well.
If you can, i would change the weapons loadouts of some of your marine units as well, melta/grav are no longer the best options, in my experience you will do well with Plasma/ML/Lascannons and Flamers. melta are now very situational, a couple of them can no longer reliably blow up a tank, and grav are now also more situational, still good, but no longer the best option
the big tau suits are not that tough to deal with, they have nasty weapons for certain, but concentrated AT fire will drop them, the Y'Varha in particular wants to get up close, and while it is awesome at erasing units, when it comes in it puts it in range of pretty much every gun you have. just take out any drones near it before you shoot it with your big guns
Thank you for providing your insights.
Using scout squads for screening is something I never thought of, even though I was well aware of their deployment rules.
Your remarks on low number of models in my army, and the generalist nature of dreadnoughts, shortcomings of short-ranged vindicators are all spot on.
As I was intent on putting an army of Iron Hands tanks(esp. vindicators) and dreadnoughts on the table rather than fielding a competitive army, having my army tabled must have been inevitable.
Unfortunately, I don't think I can include much needed units you have proposed in a short period.
I do not have enough cash to spend on miniatures for a while, and I do not like how some of the models look.(For example I am not fond of the stubby scout squad)
However I truly appreciate your advice, and I will try to play better next time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I revised my list after reading madtankbloke's comments.
The list is intended as TAC, but I also tried my best to reflect madtankbloke's comments as best as I can.
Chapter Tactics : Iron Hands
1) Battalion Detachment
- HQ Captain with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield : Replaced by Shield Eternal) (Warlord)
Librarian with Jump Pack(Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Force Axe, Bolt Pistol)
Unfortunately, despite how useful scouts would be were they in my list I currently do not have them.
Nor will I be able to get my hands on them any soon.
So while the list contains more bodies than it did before, its ability to deny deep strike would be much worse than the list with scouts.
Furthermore, I still included dreadnoughts for additional lascannons and anti-infantry firepower. The latter are provided by gatling shots from the redemptor.
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons would be more efficient, but as with scouts I am unlikely to get the models any soon.
The odd land speeder is in the list to grab objectives in maelstrom missions, as players around me play this format most frequently.
Although scouts are great, anything else can work okay as well. I think this is actually one of the few things Primaris are okay at as well, since they are quite cheap for how durable they are, even if they don't cover as much room and can't deploy as fancy. You can also deploy against the board edge or even in the corner if you are really in danger of a turn one problem.
The main thing is to spread out the infantry so that your tanks don't get punked on the first turn. Once you survive that with most of your good stuff still alive, you can fall back and kill the deep strikers.
Minor question: Why aren't you putting a Thunder Hammer on your Chapter Master? You have one on the Captain - If nothing else, why not swap them out for each other, so the Captain is better armed?
Waaaghpower wrote: Minor question: Why aren't you putting a Thunder Hammer on your Chapter Master? You have one on the Captain - If nothing else, why not swap them out for each other, so the Captain is better armed?
The only thing i can think of is the captain might be more likely to suicide charge something big and will want the hammer more than the chapter master who needs to be alive to give rerolls...but i would try to find the points for both to have TH since he is on a bike and might be fighting stuff.
Waaaghpower wrote: Minor question: Why aren't you putting a Thunder Hammer on your Chapter Master? You have one on the Captain - If nothing else, why not swap them out for each other, so the Captain is better armed?
Model has pfatm, and with CM sitting back to babysit, finding the 4 pts for TH is not a major concern.
How are people gearing their non-primaris LTs? Specifically ones with JPs? Bare bones, or tricked out?
IMHO their primary job is as a buff-bot, so I’m loath to toss them into a meat grinder. But while not the meanest of beatsticks, they do have an OK stat line. My low end thought was their MC bolter and a power sword. Worth upgrading to a combi a/o fist/TH? Pistol?
While magnets are always an answer, I like to build mins with their primary wargear first.
I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?
Nevelon wrote: How are people gearing their non-primaris LTs? Specifically ones with JPs? Bare bones, or tricked out?
IMHO their primary job is as a buff-bot, so I’m loath to toss them into a meat grinder. But while not the meanest of beatsticks, they do have an OK stat line. My low end thought was their MC bolter and a power sword. Worth upgrading to a combi a/o fist/TH? Pistol?
While magnets are always an answer, I like to build mins with their primary wargear first.
Opinions?
I've been liking power axe or sword depending on how many points I have left (I always equip my HQs last when building a list), and maybe a storm bolter. Ive also toyed with just leaving him with a chainsword and upgrading it to the teeth of terra relic if I think he'll actually see action (especially in lists with 8+ CPs). Also yes to magnets.
Crimson wrote: I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?
Considering you magnetize between the 4 lascanon shots and HGC + THB. You want extra ironhail/ icarus rocket launcher/2fragstorm instead of smokes/2strom bolters/ gatling canon. 2 krakstorm are already in there.
Crimson wrote: I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?
Considering you magnetize between the 4 lascanon shots and HGC + THB. You want extra ironhail/ icarus rocket launcher/2fragstorm instead of smokes/2strom bolters/ gatling canon. 2 krakstorm are already in there.
Why not the extra mini gatling? That seems pretty powerful.
Crimson wrote: I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?
Considering you magnetize between the 4 lascanon shots and HGC + THB. You want extra ironhail/ icarus rocket launcher/2fragstorm instead of smokes/2strom bolters/ gatling canon. 2 krakstorm are already in there.
Why not the extra mini gatling? That seems pretty powerful.
Crimson wrote: I'm staring at my unbuilt Repulsor. I'm gonna magnetise the big guns, but I don't think I can be arsed to do that with all the tertiary weapon systems. What assortment of small guns should I glue on this thing?
Considering you magnetize between the 4 lascanon shots and HGC + THB. You want extra ironhail/ icarus rocket launcher/2fragstorm instead of smokes/2strom bolters/ gatling canon. 2 krakstorm are already in there.
Why not the extra mini gatling? That seems pretty powerful.
Ofc, it's at the end of the line.
I think I prefer the fragstorm launchers to the storm bolters. There honestly isn't much in it though, so go with the storm bolters if points are needed.
Definitely krakstorm launchers rather than auto launchers. You're pretty unlikely to want to pop smoke, so the extra shots are worth having.
I think I will take fragstorms over stormbolters because that's one separate weapon type less to worry about, as I will have some fragstorms anyway. It is kinda silly how many different sorts of weapons you can cram onto this thing, I'm sure it will be tedious to roll all of them separately.
Crimson wrote: I think I will take fragstorms over stormbolters because that's one separate weapon type less to worry about, as I will have some fragstorms anyway. It is kinda silly how many different sorts of weapons you can cram onto this thing, I'm sure it will be tedious to roll all of them separately.
It honestly bothers me
i kinda wish it was a single all or nothing "frag storm" system rather than 5 frag storm options
Crimson wrote: I think I will take fragstorms over stormbolters because that's one separate weapon type less to worry about, as I will have some fragstorms anyway. It is kinda silly how many different sorts of weapons you can cram onto this thing, I'm sure it will be tedious to roll all of them separately.
It honestly bothers me
i kinda wish it was a single all or nothing "frag storm" system rather than 5 frag storm options
it feels like a cluster feth.
Agreed. It's like they designed the thing to slow the game down. You get a ton of S4 shooting essentially, but it's all got different ranges, some is -1ap, some gets +1 to hit planes and so on. So many different dice rolls to make, and so much chance to just forget some guns.
On top of which, we have to have a conversation about which of two basically identical guns to take (the storm bolter or fragstorm). Few decisions in 40k will make less difference than which of these S4 ap0 guns with about the same number of shots at about the same range.
I think on balance I'd go with the fragstorm, because it will take less time to play the thing if it just has several fragstorms and no storm bolters. And it's probably a good thing that all of its firing comes online at 18", which is a safer place to be than 12". I'm not really arguing that they are better, just that you'll hate them less than stormbolters, and probably remember to fire them more often.
How are people running their attack bikes nowadays? With speed and 4 wounds i like them quite a bit with melta but perhaps the heavy bolter is better. Thoughts?
buddha wrote: How are people running their attack bikes nowadays? With speed and 4 wounds i like them quite a bit with melta but perhaps the heavy bolter is better. Thoughts?
I think they might have a place in a salamanders list, as the rerolls are very good for the multi melta. The heavy bolters might be good for the heavy bolter strategem, but that's probably about it.
They will definitely die the first time someone looks at them, so it's definitely important to have lots of other threats on the board and not to expect a ton from them imo.
buddha wrote: How are people running their attack bikes nowadays? With speed and 4 wounds i like them quite a bit with melta but perhaps the heavy bolter is better. Thoughts?
I think they might have a place in a salamanders list, as the rerolls are very good for the multi melta. The heavy bolters might be good for the heavy bolter strategem, but that's probably about it.
They will definitely die the first time someone looks at them, so it's definitely important to have lots of other threats on the board and not to expect a ton from them imo.
I think they have different uses. With heavy bolters they are cheap objective-grabbers and brigade-fillers. With meltas they are a cheap-ish melta shot, which I'd probably only recommend for salamanders due to the rerolls. Otherwise they are unlikely to achieve much of anything.
Helbrecht has a rule that gives him +D3 attacks on the charge.
If you use the stratagem to activate him again in the fight phase, does he retain those +D3 attacks or no? I don't have the Dex so I don't know what the gem is called...
I've had a quick sift through this thread and didn't find much, how do people think that a redemptor would work best for a Salamanders army? I love the look of the Gatling cannon but I think (I'm answering my own question) that the rerolls would be wasted on a high volume, low damage gun. Whereas the overheating of the plasma can be mitigated somewhat by the rerolls?
Of course from a competitive standpoint the feedback is to not take a redemptor, but rule of cool wins out here IMO (he says whilst posting about the best load out)
Quick question about taking something like a Relic Spartan Assault Tank:
As of right now it is basically impossible to include one in any detachment right? The only non-relic Lord of War unit is G-man and the super-heavy detachment needs minimum 3 units...?
Im sure its been run by here at least once but how do you guys feel about the Heavy plasma incinerators?
im doing a 2k full primarus army and i have yet to glue on the back packs for the hell blasters.
with only 1 repulsive i want to do a 5 man with the heavy.
a 5 man if overcharging should be able to do 4ish wounds to a t8 vehicle a turn. its not very good but i cant think of any other options other than moar repulsors.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Quick question about taking something like a Relic Spartan Assault Tank:
As of right now it is basically impossible to include one in any detachment right? The only non-relic Lord of War unit is G-man and the super-heavy detachment needs minimum 3 units...?
Page 4 – Additional Rules, Relic
Change the first paragraph to read:
‘If your army is Battle-forged, no Detachment can contain more Relic units than it does non-Relic units of the same Battlefield Role. You can, however, include a single Relic Lord of War unit in your army even if it contains no non-Relic Lord of War units (you cannot include second and subsequent Relic Lord of War units unless they are taken in a Detachment that contains at least as many non-Relic Lord of War units).’
sossen wrote: I think rapid fire seems better due to cost. T8 vehicles are too rare.
Not in my crew :(
landraiders are pretty common place.
i guess a 5man with the rapid fire in rapid fire should do 6 wounds. but transports is at a premium :/
I tend to agree that the rapid fire, or even the assault, versions are better than the heavy one.
Ultimately, more shots are nearly always better than fewer, higher strength shots. With more shots you can hit a wider variety of targets. Rapid fire plasma guns will do more damage against virtually any target than heavy ones. The only situation in which they'll do less damage is against T8 or 9 targets, outside of 15".
Mandragola wrote: Page 4 – Additional Rules, Relic
Change the first paragraph to read:
‘If your army is Battle-forged, no Detachment can contain more Relic units than it does non-Relic units of the same Battlefield Role. You can, however, include a single Relic Lord of War unit in your army even if it contains no non-Relic Lord of War units (you cannot include second and subsequent Relic Lord of War units unless they are taken in a Detachment that contains at least as many non-Relic Lord of War units).’
bobsmith7777 wrote: Quick question about taking something like a Relic Spartan Assault Tank:
As of right now it is basically impossible to include one in any detachment right? The only non-relic Lord of War unit is G-man and the super-heavy detachment needs minimum 3 units...?
bobsmith7777 wrote: Quick question about taking something like a Relic Spartan Assault Tank:
As of right now it is basically impossible to include one in any detachment right? The only non-relic Lord of War unit is G-man and the super-heavy detachment needs minimum 3 units...?
Auxillary detachment lets you field anything.
It really doesn't. For a start, there's no slot for a superheavy in an auxiliary detachment. And since you only get a single unit, that unit can never be a forgeworld relic. You can only have a relic if you've already got a non-relic of the same battlefield role in the detachment, which is impossible in a detachment of only one unit. You therefore cannot take something like a relic leviathan dreadnought in an auxiliary detachment, and you can't take any superheavy - though of course you can just take the superheavy auxiliary detachment in that case. Is that what you meant?
Malifice's question was answered already above. Forgeworld published an errata.
Weazel wrote: Helbrecht has a rule that gives him +D3 attacks on the charge.
If you use the stratagem to activate him again in the fight phase, does he retain those +D3 attacks or no? I don't have the Dex so I don't know what the gem is called...
I would say no, as he's already locked in combat. That stratagem happens at the end of the fight phase as well, so again, I would say no.
Weazel wrote: Helbrecht has a rule that gives him +D3 attacks on the charge.
If you use the stratagem to activate him again in the fight phase, does he retain those +D3 attacks or no? I don't have the Dex so I don't know what the gem is called...
I think the answer is yes based on the wording: "High Marshal Helbrecht can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon if he charged in his turn."
He still counts as having charged that turn so if he fights again with the stratagem he should be able to use this weapon ability again. It's similar to the World Eater Khorne Berzerker rule where they get +1 attack if they charged that turn thanks to the WECT, this extra attack is applied both times Berzerkers fight in the corresponding melee phase.
Weazel wrote: Helbrecht has a rule that gives him +D3 attacks on the charge.
If you use the stratagem to activate him again in the fight phase, does he retain those +D3 attacks or no? I don't have the Dex so I don't know what the gem is called...
I think the answer is yes based on the wording: "High Marshal Helbrecht can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon if he charged in his turn."
He still counts as having charged that turn so if he fights again with the stratagem he should be able to use this weapon ability again. It's similar to the World Eater Khorne Berzerker rule where they get +1 attack if they charged that turn thanks to the WECT, this extra attack is applied both times Berzerkers fight in the corresponding melee phase.
Agreed. He clearly does get the extra d3 attacks. Did he charge this turn? Yes he did.
What do you guys think about a terminator chapter master with a shield eternal, and the third Space Marine World Trait, boosted by a librarian (2nd power).? It seems very resilient. I'm hesitating with this or a terminator chapter master with the shield eternal and a lc or thunder hammer and the 6th or 2nd WT, boosted by the librarian, too. He is more aggressive and dangerous, but less resilient
The lightning claws would hurt many things on 3+ with the 6th wt or the psy power, rerolling to hit and to wound (thanks to the lc and the chapter master stratagem), with between 5 and 6A.
The thunder hammer would be S10, rerolling to hit (hitting on 2+ thanks to the 6th wt), and do 5A with the power on.
The "defensive version" would have T5, 7HP, halving the damages sustained, and healing on 6+.
It seems powerful, but costly if I account for the librarian cost.
I'm leaning toward the second version (lc and shield eternal, it combines a good resilience and a good offensive output and the 6th wt, without taking the librarian in consideration.
godardc wrote: What do you guys think about a terminator chapter master with a shield eternal, and the third Space Marine World Trait, boosted by a librarian (2nd power).?
It seems very resilient.
I'm hesitating with this or a terminator chapter master with the shield eternal and a lc or thunder hammer and the 6th or 2nd WT, boosted by the librarian, too.
He is more aggressive and dangerous, but less resilient
The lightning claws would hurt many things on 3+ with the 6th wt or the psy power, rerolling to hit and to wound (thanks to the lc and the chapter master stratagem), with between 5 and 6A.
The thunder hammer would be S10, rerolling to hit (hitting on 2+ thanks to the 6th wt), and do 5A with the power on.
The "defensive version" would have T5, 7HP, halving the damages sustained, and healing on 6+.
It seems powerful, but costly if I account for the librarian cost.
I'm leaning toward the second version (lc and shield eternal, it combines a good resilience and a good offensive output and the 6th wt, without taking the librarian in consideration.
As cool as that is, when are you ever going to throw your HQ so far forward that this will ever become that necessary.
asides from counter charging REALLY hard against some very big and beefy unit or model i cant see it being practical.
and since that is the case, id say thunder hammer. tons of attacks, hits like a truck and should kill anything it looks at.
I don't see a ton of point in putting that many points into a captain. In most SM lists, you mainly want them to give you rerolls of 1 to hit. I like giving them a thunder hammer since it becomes very efficient with 4 attacks, rerolling 1s, and hitting on 3s. I've had my hammer captain kill a greater daemon, finish off a wraithknight, and beat up smaller marine units, and that works pretty well.
jcd386 wrote: I don't see a ton of point in putting that many points into a captain. In most SM lists, you mainly want them to give you rerolls of 1 to hit. I like giving them a thunder hammer since it becomes very efficient with 4 attacks, rerolling 1s, and hitting on 3s. I've had my hammer captain kill a greater daemon, finish off a wraithknight, and beat up smaller marine units, and that works pretty well.
Ok I understand.
And what stratagem do you find the most useful ?
My current list has 7CP, it is not a lot. I have to be careful when spending them. What about you ?
The reroll a dice one is obviously a good one, and the interrupting combat can be game changing. So don't forget about those.
For characters, fighting a second time, or fighting when they die can be quite strong, especially with a thunderhammer captain.
Auspex scan can be good, but it's more of a deterrant than anything else imo, as a smart enemy just won't drop close to things that can really use it well.
Kill shot is good, but you need 3 preds. Nothing wrong with it, but you have to plan for it in your list. This goes for most of the other unit or weapon specific strategems as well imo.
I think chapter master is actually quite good if you have a lot of shooting to do. It is expensive, though.
Relics of the chapter seems good for adding the Santic halo if you are facing a lot of psykers.
Orbital bombardment seems good if you have a lot of CP and you can catch a lot of units. Not something to plan for, but you can keep an eye out for good times to use it.
So, question - is there ever a reason to take a multimelta over a twin-lascannon on a Dread?
From the mathhammer I've read the multimelta competes *reasonably* well against a lascannon shot-for-shot even accounting for range issues, but being Heavy 2 makes the twin-las a strictly superior choice doesn't it?
TBH I hope I'm missing something since I'd much rather arm my Chaplain Dread with a multimelta as it seems more thematically appropriate, but even I have a limit how big of a gameplay hit I'm willing to take for the sake of lore.
quick question, on a whirlwind, would you take the castellan or vengeance launcher?
Cheers
Been trying vengeance. Considering swapping to the hyperios. Seems like a decent weapon, not as powerful as the asscan razorback, but much more flexible. Pretty decent for picking on artillery units, hiding vehicles, etc.
What do people think of Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords? 18 points a pop gets you three attacks and four shots at 12". They outshoot Sternguard against anything with 4+ or worse armour and do the same damage to MEQ (but are 2 PPM more expensive than Sternguard) and get as many attacks as Vanguard Veterans. They seem like one of the better anti-horde choices in the book, particularly when in range of various auras.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What do people think of Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords? 18 points a pop gets you three attacks and four shots at 12". They outshoot Sternguard against anything with 4+ or worse armour and do the same damage to MEQ (but are 2 PPM more expensive than Sternguard) and get as many attacks as Vanguard Veterans. They seem like one of the better anti-horde choices in the book, particularly when in range of various auras.
They're not 2ppm than sternguard. Both are 18 with their wargear.
Special issue boltgun and storm bolters do equal damage to 3+ saves, SIB does better vs 2+, and SB do better against 4+ or worse.
Vets with SB and chainsword are one of our most cost efficient horde clearing unit, though they're not very durable for their cost. Aggressors and asscan razorbacks are both better in shooting, though the vets get the 3 attacks each (4 on the sgt) in combat.
Sternguard with bolters are decent at putting some wounds on higher T if you use the strategem. 20 shots averages about 4.5 wounds vs T7 3+.
I brought them up a few pages back. I think they are viable. You could easily run 5 squads of 2 in a rhino, gives you extra attacks from all the sgts you get, and flexibility in movement. Though you would give up a lot more KP. Vets are a really solid unit in general with their extreme flexibility. The ability to eat wounds for chars is also fantastic.
Desubot wrote: Dunno. you lose out on special issue bolters for just storm bolters.
if i had to do command squads it would be for the storm shield and CC or special weapons though that increases their price by a lot.
(i just realized by command squad you mean company vet squad eh?)
Company Veteran Squads, yes. My mind's stuck in the 4th ed BT Codex terminology.
I'm honestly not sold on the idea of running units for specific stratagems, you lose out on flexibility that way. I'd rather have a solid unit that performs regardless of whether they get CPs to spend or not, and Company Vets seem to fill that role. This leaves CPs for critical rerolls, messing with enemy charges etc.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What do people think of Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords? 18 points a pop gets you three attacks and four shots at 12". They outshoot Sternguard against anything with 4+ or worse armour and do the same damage to MEQ (but are 2 PPM more expensive than Sternguard) and get as many attacks as Vanguard Veterans. They seem like one of the better anti-horde choices in the book, particularly when in range of various auras.
The issue for me is Vanguard will already have the natural mobility and the threat range for Sternguard is greater.
You're trying to accomplish both with one unit and it doesn't work out too well because of that limited mobility.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What do people think of Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords? 18 points a pop gets you three attacks and four shots at 12". They outshoot Sternguard against anything with 4+ or worse armour and do the same damage to MEQ (but are 2 PPM more expensive than Sternguard) and get as many attacks as Vanguard Veterans. They seem like one of the better anti-horde choices in the book, particularly when in range of various auras.
The issue for me is Vanguard will already have the natural mobility and the threat range for Sternguard is greater.
You're trying to accomplish both with one unit and it doesn't work out too well because of that limited mobility.
Unless you give them JP, VV and CV are almost identical. If you give the VVJP, you can give the CVSB, and that quadrouples their shooting output compared to the VV while retaining the same melee damage. You can put them in a razorback, which is easily top 3 units in the codex atm, and use them for horde control. Considering hordes are one of our bigger weaknesses and the strongest builds atm, I think it's a viable build. Either way, you give up marginal mobility for the ability to embark in razorbacks, which you should be taking anyways.
We should be taking Razorbacks yeah, but Razorbacks are garbage as transports. All but 1 weapon option is taking that -1 to hit the moment it moves, and you want the thing firing at full power at all times. If you really want to transport, use a Rhino.
Razors have been working just fine as transports. If I'm going to be paying points for a Rhino anyways, and am moving 6 or fewer models, I'd rather pay to upgrade it to a Razor, even if it's isn't as efficient when moving and shooting.
Got a quick question for you guys regarding my list. I'd post it on the decklist forum, but it's more about the last details with weapon options.
My 1500 list is as follows:
Spoiler:
Captain: Teeth of Terra, Storm Shield
Chaplain
5-man Company Vet Squad: Storm Shield (2), Power Swords (4), Power Axe, Plasma Pistol
Razorback, Twin AC, Storm Bolter
5-man Company Vet Squad: Storm Shield (2), Power Swords (4), Power Axe, Plasma Pistol
Razorback, Twin AC, Storm Bolter
Contemptor Dread, Dread CC and Kheres AC 5-man Scout Squad, Camo Cloaks, Sniper Rifle (4)
5-man Scout Squad, Camo Cloaks, Sniper Rifle (4)
5-man Dev Squad, 2 ML/2 LC Razorback, Twin LC, Storm Bolter
5-man Dev Squad, 2 ML/2 LC Razorback, Twin LC, Storm Bolter
I'm wondering if the Razorback Storm Bolters are the best choice. I have the option of removing them and either
- Giving each Scout Squad another Sniper Rifle
or
-Giving my Chaplain a Plasma Pistol and each Vet Squad an additional Power Axe.
Anyone Have any suggestion as to which is better? I was planning on using Templars, but Fists is also an option (I'm running a 30K Fists force with Templar Brethren leading the way).
Mortarion's Herald wrote: Got a quick question for you guys regarding my list. I'd post it on the decklist forum, but it's more about the last details with weapon options.
My 1500 list is as follows:
Spoiler:
Captain: Teeth of Terra, Storm Shield Chaplain 5-man Company Vet Squad: Storm Shield (2), Power Swords (4), Power Axe, Plasma Pistol Razorback, Twin AC, Storm Bolter 5-man Company Vet Squad: Storm Shield (2), Power Swords (4), Power Axe, Plasma Pistol Razorback, Twin AC, Storm Bolter Contemptor Dread, Dread CC and Kheres AC 5-man Scout Squad, Camo Cloaks, Sniper Rifle (4) 5-man Scout Squad, Camo Cloaks, Sniper Rifle (4) 5-man Dev Squad, 2 ML/2 LC Razorback, Twin LC, Storm Bolter 5-man Dev Squad, 2 ML/2 LC Razorback, Twin LC, Storm Bolter
I'm wondering if the Razorback Storm Bolters are the best choice. I have the option of removing them and either - Giving each Scout Squad another Sniper Rifle or -Giving my Chaplain a Plasma Pistol and each Vet Squad an additional Power Axe.
Anyone Have any suggestion as to which is better? I was planning on using Templars, but Fists is also an option (I'm running a 30K Fists force with Templar Brethren leading the way).
Storm bolters are still bolters they are cheap and you can chuck them on vehicles
but ask your self if you have enough basic infantry dakka and need more cool things in other places.
you are going templars so you probably want to go choppy. id get them power weapons on the vets.
Desubot wrote: Storm bolters are still bolters they are cheap and you can chuck them on vehicles
but ask your self if you have enough basic infantry dakka and need more cool things in other places.
you are going templars so you probably want to go choppy. id get them power weapons on the vets.
That's what I've been thinking, honestly, I just wanted someone to help confirm it's probably better to buff out the main force of my army over the additional shots given by the Storm Bolters.
Looking at it, I might even drop the Twin LC instead, going full Twin AC on the Razorbacks. Those 30 points let me keep the Storm Bolters as well as add the Plasma Pistol, the Power Axes, the Sniper Rifles, and points left over for Cherubs for the Devs. I'd just have to rely on the Devs hitting the armor hard enough.
Id drop the ss on the captain (4++ seems fine to me),
I think IF CT and warlord trait is gonna be the way to go here. Maybe also think about upgrading the captain to a chapter master for more better dakka.
Im honestly not sure the vets will do much. I get wanting to have a cc element, but can't see them effecting too much.
I'd try to fit an ancient in there for the devastators if you can.
jcd386 wrote: Id drop the ss on the captain (4++ seems fine to me),
I think IF CT and warlord trait is gonna be the way to go here. Maybe also think about upgrading the captain to a chapter master for more better dakka.
Im honestly not sure the vets will do much. I get wanting to have a cc element, but can't see them effecting too much.
I'd try to fit an ancient in there for the devastators if you can.
I totally get it. I originally built Templar Brethren with 30K in mind, but when it decided to be 7.5 instead of moving to 8e, I decided to make what I had work so that I could actually play games instead of watching others. I figured I'd build the list and get some use out of them as vets, have a fluffy 30K Legion and hopefully not get rolled. I will eventually be replacing them with jump pack Vets, though probably with similar loadouts. Thankfully most of the people I'm going to playing with are just starting out as well.
How would you guys load out your Vets? I did originally have a the melee Ancient instead of the Chaplain. I don't have my Codex with me at the moment but I remember them being the same point cost, though you did say for the Devs Can't help but chuckle at all the help you guys are giving me (which I really appreciate!). My list thread got zero replies.
My own army is an IF 30k force. My observation is that not all units are good for both 30k and 40k. Rather than have units that are bad in both, I have some guys who I only use in one system or the other.
So for example I've got 20 Cataphractii, but they've got all kinds of stuff they wouldn't be allowed in 40k. I've made a few with combo-bolter and fist so I can at least field a squad, and I've got a converted praetor with TH/SS who I use as Lysander. In 30k he's just a sergeant.
But for 40k troops I just use intercessors. My 30k veterans (I run pride of the legion) are great, but they have the wrong weapons to be tactical marines. Rather than change them and make them bad for 30k, I've just got intercessors.
That's what I'd recommend you do. Leave your Templar brethren alone. Don't buy scouts, which are awful in 30k and not great in 40k. Get some intercessors for 40k.
There are plenty of units that cross over well. Contemptors are fantastic in both, as are normal dreadnoughts. Various forgeworld tanks and planes work well too. Predators are good, and FWare now doing a tempting deal to buy 3 for £150 (still way more than the FW ones of course!). Xiphon interceptors are probably better in 40k than 30k. Cataphractii with storm bolters and fists are good in both settings.
I'd ditch the razorbacks, or possibly not stick the turret mount on the back so you could switch them to rhinos for 30k.
Hi, was wondering where people were placing the primaris characters? I've got units my normal marine characters go in (including a super command squad of 5 vets champion ancient apothecary captain and lieutenant in a land raider) but I'm wanting to get a primaris contingent and liked the look of all the models so wondered where they worked best?
They don't have bikes or jump packs. So If you were planning to camp a HQ in one single spot with long range units, you might as well use the Primaris because the extra wound helps. I assume they have an extra wound. I'm out of town and can't check.
"Scouts" don't exist in 30k. Recon squads in scout armour with sniper rifles and camo cloaks are spectacularly overpriced in 30k. If you think 2 points is too much for a camo cloak in 40k, try 5ppm in 30k and 5ppm for their rifles, on top of a base cost way above that of a 40k scout.
They also can't have heavy weapons, meaning that if you build a guy with a missile launcher you won't be able to use him in 30k.
Also, 30k recon squads are support squads, so you can't use them to fill compulsory troops slots (unless you're taking the recon company rite of war). You'll need some other troops for 30k anyway.
And this is my key point. To make a squad be legal in both systems you often have to compromise their effectiveness in both systems. That tends not to be the case with vehicles, but for infantry it very often is. So it's better to have vehicles that work in both, but accept that you'll have to have different infantry in 30k and 40k.
Mandragola wrote: And this is my key point. To make a squad be legal in both systems you often have to compromise their effectiveness in both systems. That tends not to be the case with vehicles, but for infantry it very often is. So it's better to have vehicles that work in both, but accept that you'll have to have different infantry in 30k and 40k.
I'm not building a 30K army; I've ditched the plan entirely as no one to my knowledge plays 30K around here, and building a 30K IF Legion using 40K rules. That being said, the group in my area are all starting out as well, so it's not too competitive, and the models are too cool (and expensive ) not to use, even if they aren't the most effective use of points. I'm also in the middle of magnetizing the Rhinos to turn them into Razorbacks and Predators, so I can get the best of all three.
Mandragola wrote: And this is my key point. To make a squad be legal in both systems you often have to compromise their effectiveness in both systems. That tends not to be the case with vehicles, but for infantry it very often is. So it's better to have vehicles that work in both, but accept that you'll have to have different infantry in 30k and 40k.
I'm not building a 30K army; I've ditched the plan entirely as no one to my knowledge plays 30K around here, and building a 30K IF Legion using 40K rules. That being said, the group in my area are all starting out as well, so it's not too competitive, and the models are too cool (and expensive ) not to use, even if they aren't the most effective use of points. I'm also in the middle of magnetizing the Rhinos to turn them into Razorbacks and Predators, so I can get the best of all three.
Fair enough. My advice is to use your Templar Brethren as characters and Sergeants in that case, depending on how many of them you've got.
Been playing against 1-2 LSS a lot lately and they do pretty well. Good speed, solid shooting, not quite threatening enough to be the first target of heavy weapons if there's tanks around, scouts are a fine, cheap payload for grabbing objectives. It's no razorback but I still like them.
argonak wrote: What do people think of Landspeeder Storm? I've always loved the model.
I used it all the time last edition because it was stupid cheap, but those extra points add up now. Entirely up to you but it isn't necessary for Scouts to function.
My issue with the LSS is it sort of defeats the purpose of bringing scouts in a list, which i see as deploying outside of the deployment zone to protect from deep strike and first turn charges.
I've tried a Storm a bit since I bought it right before 8th rules hit. I like being able to deep strike it in to their deployment zone or on an objective late if I don't need the scouts as my own protection. However, the fact it costs nearly the same as a twin AC razorback for like half the firepower and survivability make me constantly wonder if the occasional use is worth the cost.
