bort wrote: I've tried a Storm a bit since I bought it right before 8th rules hit. I like being able to deep strike it in to their deployment zone or on an objective late if I don't need the scouts as my own protection. However, the fact it costs nearly the same as a twin AC razorback for like half the firepower and survivability make me constantly wonder if the occasional use is worth the cost.
Deep striking seems to have a hella price for this edition.
bort wrote: I've tried a Storm a bit since I bought it right before 8th rules hit. I like being able to deep strike it in to their deployment zone or on an objective late if I don't need the scouts as my own protection. However, the fact it costs nearly the same as a twin AC razorback for like half the firepower and survivability make me constantly wonder if the occasional use is worth the cost.
Deep striking seems to have a hella price for this edition.
didnt it used to have a blind grenade?
thats gone now right?
Yes, the Cerberus Launcher used to have a blinding effect but now it doesn't. Big reason behind me dropping my storms. I am going to give the gunners back their Heavy Bolters instead of the Heavy Flamer too.
bort wrote: I've tried a Storm a bit since I bought it right before 8th rules hit. I like being able to deep strike it in to their deployment zone or on an objective late if I don't need the scouts as my own protection. However, the fact it costs nearly the same as a twin AC razorback for like half the firepower and survivability make me constantly wonder if the occasional use is worth the cost.
Deep striking seems to have a hella price for this edition.
didnt it used to have a blind grenade?
thats gone now right?
Yeah. It's a Frag ML now basically. Not really worth it.
bort wrote: I've tried a Storm a bit since I bought it right before 8th rules hit. I like being able to deep strike it in to their deployment zone or on an objective late if I don't need the scouts as my own protection. However, the fact it costs nearly the same as a twin AC razorback for like half the firepower and survivability make me constantly wonder if the occasional use is worth the cost.
Since when can storms deep strike?
Fair point on the firepower and survivability, clearly. In fairness though you do kind of have to factor in the firepower of the scouts inside. A tactical squad can't fire out of its razorback.
I loved the LSS until they removed the option for swapping its weapon out. As a fairly cheap objective capper it's great, although since the 'dex dropped I'm leaning more towards a couple of attack bikes for that role.
Bleh, well...There went my main reason it might be worth the cost. Can still fly charge-withdraw-shoot, I suppose, but sounds like thats about all it offers over the razor and the shooting just isnt that exciting since the scouts cant fire after.
Frozocrone wrote: What would people recommend for White Scars Hellblasters?
I'm torn between the Rapid Fire and Assault guns. Assault makes use of tactics better but Rapid Fire can go up to S8 and wound vehicles on 3s.
Leaning more towards Assault Plasma as I'm thinking of getting some bikes (thats if they don't release primaris bikes) with Meltaguns.
I dunno. RF also makes it so you wound T4 multi wound models on a 2+ and at 30" range with a 15" range RF the situation may not come up that often that you are out of range. unless playing on hammer and anvil or a truly massive table.
i guess it wouldnt be tooo bad if running up against a lot of not marines in your meta.
First & foremost: Relic Leviathan weapons, are the Storm Cannons a servicable alternative to the others? Everyone's raving about the Bombard and Lance but frankly I prefer other things for dedicated tankhunting and I was already planning a Bombard Leviathan for my future Iron Hands successor project, so I'm hoping the Cannons aren't total garbage.
Next up, Chaplain Dreads - would the Inferno Cannon ever be a worthwhile buy on a footslogging dread? I suspect the Multimelta would be a better choice but I do love burning me some witches.
Also, Ironclads - Hurricanes look decent this edition, would a Hurricane/Chainfist/Melta/dual-HK loadout be decent?
First & foremost: Relic Leviathan weapons, are the Storm Cannons a servicable alternative to the others? Everyone's raving about the Bombard and Lance but frankly I prefer other things for dedicated tankhunting and I was already planning a Bombard Leviathan for my future Iron Hands successor project, so I'm hoping the Cannons aren't total garbage.
Next up, Chaplain Dreads - would the Inferno Cannon ever be a worthwhile buy on a footslogging dread? I suspect the Multimelta would be a better choice but I do love burning me some witches.
Also, Ironclads - Hurricanes look decent this edition, would a Hurricane/Chainfist/Melta/dual-HK loadout be decent?
1st: Yes all three of the weapons are off the chart in term of cost efficiency. Feel free to use whatever.
2nd: if it's the f6 -2 2d ,then it's a really decent gun better than -1 to hit multi melta.
3rd: Ironclad hurricane is a really decent option due to the fact that the hurricane is extremly cost efficient.
First & foremost: Relic Leviathan weapons, are the Storm Cannons a servicable alternative to the others? Everyone's raving about the Bombard and Lance but frankly I prefer other things for dedicated tankhunting and I was already planning a Bombard Leviathan for my future Iron Hands successor project, so I'm hoping the Cannons aren't total garbage.
Next up, Chaplain Dreads - would the Inferno Cannon ever be a worthwhile buy on a footslogging dread? I suspect the Multimelta would be a better choice but I do love burning me some witches.
Also, Ironclads - Hurricanes look decent this edition, would a Hurricane/Chainfist/Melta/dual-HK loadout be decent?
1st: Yes all three of the weapons are off the chart in term of cost efficiency. Feel free to use whatever.
2nd: if it's the f6 -2 2d ,then it's a really decent gun better than -1 to hit multi melta.
3rd: Ironclad hurricane is a really decent option due to the fact that the hurricane is extremly cost efficient.
Cheers.
On point 2 - the gun has a nice statline, but the range is only 8"(so 14" including Movement). While I definitely intend the Chaplain Dread to be advancing up the field, I just worry I'd get a lot more use out of the 24"(30" inc. M) range multimelta.
On point 2 - the gun has a nice statline, but the range is only 8"(so 14" including Movement). While I definitely intend the Chaplain Dread to be advancing up the field, I just worry I'd get a lot more use out of the 24"(30" inc. M) range multimelta.
Dunno, in my book the flamestorm is top nocht and do better agaisnt most if not all targets, it's a nice tool to have where you could have anti tank somewhere else. The only reason i'd go melta, it's if you go lizard Chapter Tactic to reroll Hit/Wound.
I ran a chaplain dread last night with a twin lascannon. It was fantastic.
I'm a very bad person, so I was running it as my warlord with the armour indominatus. In the end it only got to fire the lascannons in overwatch, because I was against grey knights - who kept throwing themselves at it. On turn 1 it managed to zap 6 wounds off a charging dreadknight, but then did no more damage with shooting.
Chaplain dreads aren't really about their gun. They are about hitting things and being tough (at least if wearing relic armour ).
The chaplain dread was backed up by a Primaris Librarian, who stood behind it casting null zone and giving it might of heroes. It ended up killing two dreadknights and Draigo, while taking only 4 wounds.
That was pretty lucky, but also showed some of the effects of high probability dice rolls. The problem the dreadknights had was hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 3+, whereas I was hitting and wounding on a 2+. When the first DK came in it actually landed 3 wounding hits with its hammer, so I procced the armour and survived (rolled 3,4,4 for saves, so glad I did use the armour!). I only got one hit through in return, so I left the dreadknight on 3 wounds and had to kill it in my own turn.
I think the lascannons are the best option really, even though in this game I didn't get to fire them much. The flamer thing just isn't going to be in range often enough to matter, and the chaplain isn't fast. Lascannons can make a real difference against the kinds of things he's designed to fight. Multimeltas have worse strength and only one shot.
For me, the purpose of dreadnoughts is hitting things with dreadnought close combat weapons. Contemptors are therefore my favourite dreadnoughts, by a mile. They move faster, hit on a 2+ and at a higher base strength than normal dreadnoughts or ironclads. They cost far less than redemptors. Their guns don't do all that much, but in a way that's fine, because they spend so much of their time locked in cc.
The 9" move makes a really major difference too, as it allows them to come charging out at people who come to threaten your front line.
So when people ask questions like what weapon should you put on an ironclad, I'll always respond that I think they should just take contemptors. For what it's worth, sure, a hurricane bolter looks a decent option for an ironclad. I'd stick a chainsaw on the left side because -1 to hit with the hammer is crippling.
Oh I love me some Contemptors, but I'm planning out five different SM forces at the moment(small Deathwatch, Black Templars, Raptors, Iron Hands successor, small Exorcists) and I'm trying to spread dreadnoughts across them in a thematic way - the Leviathan(Lev. weaps on a Redemptor chassis), Ironclad, and Chaplain are all for the Black Templars.
I think I'll build both MM and Inferno arms and magnetise until I figure out which I prefer, thanks for the advice gents.
I have given the leviathan some thought. Personally I think double stormcannon is how I'd run one. Those 20 shots would do a lot of good, I'm sure.
The weird thing about the leviathan is how it loses attacks if you stick guns on it. This means it's by no means the best cc dreadnought. In fact, you don't get much more power than a contemptor provides for roughly half the price. Two contemtors are certainly better in assault than a leviathan.
But as a gun platform it's really quite interesting. Storm cannons will tear up just about any target and the dread is pretty resilient against return fire.
The reason I prefer the storm cannons is mainly their range. A weakness with any other armament will be getting tied up in melee too often. Its overwatch is pretty good of course, and it's not easy to kill, but if you give it two 18" range guns it's going to be charged at some point.
The other factor is that 18" range guns may not find any targets on turn 1. 24" range guns really should.
Mandragola wrote: I have given the leviathan some thought. Personally I think double stormcannon is how I'd run one. Those 20 shots would do a lot of good, I'm sure.
The weird thing about the leviathan is how it loses attacks if you stick guns on it. This means it's by no means the best cc dreadnought. In fact, you don't get much more power than a contemptor provides for roughly half the price. Two contemtors are certainly better in assault than a leviathan.
But as a gun platform it's really quite interesting. Storm cannons will tear up just about any target and the dread is pretty resilient against return fire.
The reason I prefer the storm cannons is mainly their range. A weakness with any other armament will be getting tied up in melee too often. Its overwatch is pretty good of course, and it's not easy to kill, but if you give it two 18" range guns it's going to be charged at some point.
The other factor is that 18" range guns may not find any targets on turn 1. 24" range guns really should.
If you're worried a lot about being tarpitted, you should trying using it as Ultramarines then in this instance. As I run it with 1 gun and the Drills, I like throwing it in melee.
Mandragola wrote: I have given the leviathan some thought. Personally I think double stormcannon is how I'd run one. Those 20 shots would do a lot of good, I'm sure.
The weird thing about the leviathan is how it loses attacks if you stick guns on it. This means it's by no means the best cc dreadnought. In fact, you don't get much more power than a contemptor provides for roughly half the price. Two contemtors are certainly better in assault than a leviathan.
But as a gun platform it's really quite interesting. Storm cannons will tear up just about any target and the dread is pretty resilient against return fire.
The reason I prefer the storm cannons is mainly their range. A weakness with any other armament will be getting tied up in melee too often. Its overwatch is pretty good of course, and it's not easy to kill, but if you give it two 18" range guns it's going to be charged at some point.
The other factor is that 18" range guns may not find any targets on turn 1. 24" range guns really should.
If you're worried a lot about being tarpitted, you should trying using it as Ultramarines then in this instance. As I run it with 1 gun and the Drills, I like throwing it in melee.
Mandragola wrote: I have given the leviathan some thought. Personally I think double stormcannon is how I'd run one. Those 20 shots would do a lot of good, I'm sure.
The weird thing about the leviathan is how it loses attacks if you stick guns on it. This means it's by no means the best cc dreadnought. In fact, you don't get much more power than a contemptor provides for roughly half the price. Two contemtors are certainly better in assault than a leviathan.
But as a gun platform it's really quite interesting. Storm cannons will tear up just about any target and the dread is pretty resilient against return fire.
The reason I prefer the storm cannons is mainly their range. A weakness with any other armament will be getting tied up in melee too often. Its overwatch is pretty good of course, and it's not easy to kill, but if you give it two 18" range guns it's going to be charged at some point.
The other factor is that 18" range guns may not find any targets on turn 1. 24" range guns really should.
If you're worried a lot about being tarpitted, you should trying using it as Ultramarines then in this instance. As I run it with 1 gun and the Drills, I like throwing it in melee.
Hey guys. I have been having a little trouble getting feedback on this list I am considering. Hoping maybe the tactics thread can give me some feedback.
I am considering starting a Storm Wardens army. Decided Black Templars was the way to best represent them. I want to get some Tempest Blades in there since Storm Wardens love them some giant space swords. And they otherwise specialize in a mechanized assault. So here is what I have for a 2k list.
HQs
Chaplain Grimaldus
High Marshal Helbrecht
Emperors Champion (Top Tempest Blade)
1 unit will replace the Lascannon with a Heavy Bolter (because points)
Elites
Company Champion (Tempest Blade) w/MC Power Sword and the Shield Eternal
Contemptor Dread w/ Multi Melta
Vanguard Vet Squad x2 w/ Jump Packs
-Vet Sgt w/ Relic Blade & Plasma Pistol
-Vet w/ Power Sword & Storm Shield x3
-Vet w/ Power Sword and Plasma Pistol
Heavy Support
Land Raider Crusader x2 w/Multi Melta
So I figure 2 crusaders join helbecht and a champ in a LR while 2 crusaders join the other champ and Gimaldus. The contemptor marches up the field blasting away and each unit of vanguard vets jump in to grab those sweet sweet melee bonuses from the charaters and support the champs where ever they would hit hardest.
What is your plan to put in those land raiders? The crusader squads? It seems fine to me, good enough to at least try but it seems like those lr's could do more, even putting some cc vets without jump packs would make sense in that situation since those are the up close and personal lr's.
I was going to load up 2 crusader squads, 1 named character and 1 of the champions (yes I know emperors champ is a named character) into each. Use the LRCs to drop off the crusaders as need be where they would be most effective.
Maybe sticking with the characters but seems unlikely, grab objectives, taking up firing positions etc etc...
And then deep strike in the jump pack vets to support the character/champs and grab the buffs from the auras.
The LRC would drop lots of anti infantry dakka while I rely on the heavy/special weapons/plasma scattered about/dread for anti vehicle support.
In that regard I end up with 4 plasma pistols/3 lascannons/4 plasma guns/ 2 LRC mounted Multi Meltas/and a Contemptor Multi Melta.
I figure that gives it all a real nice distribution so that it can't just be focused off the table or anything while keeping everyone more or less capable of dealing with everything.
If your going to put the crusaders in them then I would pull the laz cannon. If you want close up anti tank since your dropping them off up front anyways I would do multi melta myself and go for that sweet 2d6 take the highest damage roll. Otherwise if your keeping the laz cannons it seems like a waste on black templars, they are a force that loves close range, not distance. Maybe take the laz cannons in a dev squad and make the crusader squads larger?
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Power Sword
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Melta
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Power Sword
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Melta
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Multi Melta
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Plasma
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Multi Melta
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Plasma
With this set up I would end up with 4 initiates 2 Meltas 1 Multi Melta 1 Power Sword and 2 Sword Brothers with a Power Sword 1 with Combi Melta and 1 with Combi Plasma inside of reach LRC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also side question. I noticed that Tac squads don't actually come with heavy weapon components. Do people just insert devestators into Tac/crusader squads?
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Power Sword
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Melta
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Power Sword
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Melta
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Multi Melta
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Plasma
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Multi Melta
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Plasma
With this set up I would end up with 4 initiates 2 Meltas 1 Multi Melta 1 Power Sword and 2 Sword Brothers with a Power Sword 1 with Combi Melta and 1 with Combi Plasma inside of reach LRC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also side question. I noticed that Tac squads don't actually come with heavy weapon components. Do people just insert devestators into Tac/crusader squads?
I've been running plasma, plas can, and combi plas in asscan razorbacks to good effect. Though I'm leaning towards changing the plas can out for a heavy bolter, it's a very cost efficient gun. I think its better than standard PC d3 shots, but overcharging is extremely strong with rerolls so not sure yet. Power swords are a good investment on sgts for their cost.
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Power Sword
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Melta
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Power Sword
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Melta
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Multi Melta
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Plasma
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Multi Melta
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Plasma
With this set up I would end up with 4 initiates 2 Meltas 1 Multi Melta 1 Power Sword and 2 Sword Brothers with a Power Sword 1 with Combi Melta and 1 with Combi Plasma inside of reach LRC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also side question. I noticed that Tac squads don't actually come with heavy weapon components. Do people just insert devestators into Tac/crusader squads?
It's been a long time since I had to buy the actual tac squad box, but that's how I remember doing it back in the day. 2 squads of tacticals and a box of devs, pick your options and work from there. Now days it's easy to buy just the bits you want online, so buying a box of 10 Marines and then buying 10 missile launcher bits (for example) is pretty easy to do.
As for the crusaders, if you are putting them all in the land raiders then you look good to me, fluffy and effective. If you planned on 2 of the 4 squads staying out those should stay with Las cannons and hang back.
Not really tactics related, but those of you that are looking for a way to get Auxiliary Grenade Launcher and for your Intercessor Squads should take a look at the Grenade Harness from the Tartatos Terminators kit. Assemble the grenade harness then cut the launchers off the center piece. Attach them under the bare of the Bolt Rifle and VOILA! Auxiliary Grenade Launchers.
Disclaimer: This is not my idea, I saw it on B&C from user Hersir.
This will save me some cash since I won't need to buy two AGL bits off eBay anymore to make sure every squad of Intercessors has an AGL. At one point each, why wouldn't you take them? It basically gives the Intercessors an knock-off missile launcher/special weapon. The Frag round is great for dealing with hordes, and the Krak round does well enough against big stuff. Though once the Intercessors are in Rapid Fire range, the regular bolt rifle shots might be a better option against many targets.
Disclaimer #2: I have spent the last three weeks in an austere environment for Army training, so I am trying to catch up on this thread.
The Cataphractii Grenade Harness will work just as well.
I'm personally gonna make my Intercessors just Mk3 Marines with Shields, and the Launcher guy will use the Combi-Bolter from the Headhunters that FW sells.
Stormtalon, although the hawk does well in a FLY-heavy meta.
On another note, my preference for a fast attack-based list is really hurting in this edition. It feels like with the game so killy, going for points (maelstrom) through speed and positioning is redundant, particularly with the SM objective cards removing half the Scure Objective X.
So out goes my bikes, attack bikes and speeders; keeping the vanguard and stormtalons as their damage output is pretty decent. Little sad about that. Currently painting up devastators for a more static, high-damage-style list.
Really don't understand why we lost the ability to take bikes as troops under certain conditions when Chaos still get their cult elites as troops. Oh well.
Yeah that's weird. On one hand, it's fine as you can just take outrider detachments. But then chaos could just take vanguards, couldn't they?
I guess you could argue that bikes still shouldn't get objective secured, because that's not really what they are for. I can see cult troops doing that - with the possible exception of zerkers.
Flood wrote: I suppose we have Primaris instead. Just not a fan of sitting on one spot all game.
Primaris stuff isn't all that static. Only the heavy intercessors and hellblasters have any reason to stand still, and they are both terrible. Inceptors are outright fast.
But it's true that the older fast attack choices have suffered in this edition. I wouldn't field something like an assault squad now, and vehicles like land speeders seem seriously overpriced. Bike squads and attack bikes seem ok though - with the latter making a good way to fill out a brigade and do maelstrom missions.
Flood wrote: I suppose we have Primaris instead. Just not a fan of sitting on one spot all game.
Primaris stuff isn't all that static. Only the heavy intercessors and hellblasters have any reason to stand still, and they are both terrible. Inceptors are outright fast.
But it's true that the older fast attack choices have suffered in this edition. I wouldn't field something like an assault squad now, and vehicles like land speeders seem seriously overpriced. Bike squads and attack bikes seem ok though - with the latter making a good way to fill out a brigade and do maelstrom missions.
I don't think the Heavy Intercessors are terrible but they're definitely not great. The exchange is free at least...
Flood wrote: I suppose we have Primaris instead. Just not a fan of sitting on one spot all game.
Primaris stuff isn't all that static. Only the heavy intercessors and hellblasters have any reason to stand still, and they are both terrible. Inceptors are outright fast.
But it's true that the older fast attack choices have suffered in this edition. I wouldn't field something like an assault squad now, and vehicles like land speeders seem seriously overpriced. Bike squads and attack bikes seem ok though - with the latter making a good way to fill out a brigade and do maelstrom missions.
I don't think the Heavy Intercessors are terrible but they're definitely not great. The exchange is free at least...
I'm not sure what you mean here because Stalker bolters cost 2 points each instead of being a free exchange.
godardc wrote: How do you handle infantry (like boyz or gaunts) ?
Now our bolter and thunderfire have been nerfed, what do you use ?
Twin-Assault Cannons on Razorbacks/Stormtalons.
Or Whirlwinds, Speeders with Assault Cannon/HB, Aggressors, mass bolters (Intercessors for that -1AP).
Grav-cannon devs can double up as anti-infantry pretty nicely, if you can get them in range for 16 shots (or 12 with heavy bolters if you run them cheap).
Scout bikes can also bring up to 22 s4 shots with 3 bikers at short range (12", 3*TL-Boltgun, 3*Shotgun, Stormbolter).
Horde's really not been something I've had trouble with compared to more elite armies.
Flood wrote: I suppose we have Primaris instead. Just not a fan of sitting on one spot all game.
Primaris stuff isn't all that static. Only the heavy intercessors and hellblasters have any reason to stand still, and they are both terrible. Inceptors are outright fast.
But it's true that the older fast attack choices have suffered in this edition. I wouldn't field something like an assault squad now, and vehicles like land speeders seem seriously overpriced. Bike squads and attack bikes seem ok though - with the latter making a good way to fill out a brigade and do maelstrom missions.
I don't think the Heavy Intercessors are terrible but they're definitely not great. The exchange is free at least...
I'm not sure what you mean here because Stalker bolters cost 2 points each instead of being a free exchange.
Thought they were free. Never mind then. They're not great haha
Automatically Appended Next Post:
godardc wrote: How do you handle infantry (like boyz or gaunts) ?
Now our bolter and thunderfire have been nerfed, what do you use ?
WW ? Frag ML ?
I thought about a twin-linked heavy flamer / heavy flamer dread (being Ultra is very useful there).
Tarantula Turrets. 27 points gives you a 6 shot BS4+ Heavy Bolter. It doesn't interfere with being pure marines, and best of all it is in the Fast Attack slot, which isn't heavily contested what with Fliers getting their own category (I used to usually throw my stormtalons in every game).
I like the Codex Thunderfire Cannon quite a bit more than how it looked in the Index. The AP-1 has made it a lot more effective at wounding stuff, and its stratagem has been quite useful. Cutting the movement/advance/charge distances in half has been pretty good at keeping a large footslogging mob at bay for an extra turn or two, allowing you to focus the rest of your gunfire on a different single target. They're not as good as they were pre-8th edition, but they're infinitely better than they were in their Index entry.
godardc wrote: How do you handle infantry (like boyz or gaunts) ?
Now our bolter and thunderfire have been nerfed, what do you use ?
Twin-Assault Cannons on Razorbacks/Stormtalons.
Or Whirlwinds, Speeders with Assault Cannon/HB, Aggressors, mass bolters (Intercessors for that -1AP).
Grav-cannon devs can double up as anti-infantry pretty nicely, if you can get them in range for 16 shots (or 12 with heavy bolters if you run them cheap).
Scout bikes can also bring up to 22 s4 shots with 3 bikers at short range (12", 3*TL-Boltgun, 3*Shotgun, Stormbolter).
Horde's really not been something I've had trouble with compared to more elite armies.
Agreed. Between the hurricane bolters and assault cannons on my storm raven, my Aggressors and bike's twin-bolters I can bury several dozen infantry a turn.
Ass cannon Razors are really solid as well, and always spend the 2 points on every vehicle possible for that extra storm bolter.
godardc wrote: How do you handle infantry (like boyz or gaunts) ? Now our bolter and thunderfire have been nerfed, what do you use ?
Twin-Assault Cannons on Razorbacks/Stormtalons. Or Whirlwinds, Speeders with Assault Cannon/HB, Aggressors, mass bolters (Intercessors for that -1AP). Grav-cannon devs can double up as anti-infantry pretty nicely, if you can get them in range for 16 shots (or 12 with heavy bolters if you run them cheap). Scout bikes can also bring up to 22 s4 shots with 3 bikers at short range (12", 3*TL-Boltgun, 3*Shotgun, Stormbolter).
Horde's really not been something I've had trouble with compared to more elite armies.
I used to play speeder with HB/ML, but nowadays they are so expensive. Do you think they are worth it against infantry ?
wtwlf123 wrote: I like the Codex Thunderfire Cannon quite a bit more than how it looked in the Index. The AP-1 has made it a lot more effective at wounding stuff, and its stratagem has been quite useful. Cutting the movement/advance/charge distances in half has been pretty good at keeping a large footslogging mob at bay for an extra turn or two, allowing you to focus the rest of your gunfire on a different single target. They're not as good as they were pre-8th edition, but they're infinitely better than they were in their Index entry.
I haven't tried it yet, but I wish I had, it seems better in deed. I have been very disappointed by the index Thunderfire.
What weaponry do you put on your stormraven with the hurricane bolters and the asscannons ? Multi melta, heavy bolter, ML ?
Have you used drop pods succesfully since 8th Ed ?
Outside of a quad Grav Cannon or quad Multi-Melta Devastator Squad, I haven't had much success with Drop Pods in 8th so far. And even those roles are super niche.
Ok I see.
I have only used one since 8th dropped, and it didn't end well.
I'm going to play a dread with twin lined heavy flamer and a heavy flamer next week. I think it will be good with the Ultramarine CT.
Any experience with such a dread ?
godardc wrote: Ok I see.
I have only used one since 8th dropped, and it didn't end well.
I'm going to play a dread with twin lined heavy flamer and a heavy flamer next week. I think it will be good with the Ultramarine CT.
Any experience with such a dread ?
It's a decent blender but do you have a good plan to get it out there to make its points?
I want to expand my army to include some sort of Fast Attack option that isn't Assault Marines (since I have 5 of those at the moment.) What are you guys finding useful and having fun with? I've been eyeing a Land Speeder or Scout Bike squad. I'd like to pick up something with the intent of using it as a quick objective grabber. I know transports and deep striking are another option as well, but if it had to be something from the Fast Attack category, what would you go with and why?
Bubbles wrote: I want to expand my army to include some sort of Fast Attack option that isn't Assault Marines (since I have 5 of those at the moment.) What are you guys finding useful and having fun with? I've been eyeing a Land Speeder or Scout Bike squad. I'd like to pick up something with the intent of using it as a quick objective grabber. I know transports and deep striking are another option as well, but if it had to be something from the Fast Attack category, what would you go with and why?
While I’ve only used them in one list, Scout bikers seem to be pretty decent and fun.
They are fast.
They have a ton of guns, most of which can be assault. So they can move, assault move (always 6” turbo boost), then shoot with the AGL and their shotguns.
CC? They have pistols and combat knives for extra stabbing. Don’t want to be in CC? Cluster mines for 1CP, d3 MWs on a 2+.
They interact nicely with some other stratagems and CTs. UM can fall back, cluster mine, and still shoot. WS have a lot of perks.
And they don’t cost that much.
I’ve not been as impressed with my land speeders. The TLM/HB that has been my go-to for a while now seems very overpriced for what it does. And with the -1 to hit for shooting heavy weapons on the move, it no longer fills the niche of mobile firepower it used to. I’ve had a little more success with my old lead MM/HF, but am still not sure it’s worth it.
Bubbles wrote: I want to expand my army to include some sort of Fast Attack option that isn't Assault Marines (since I have 5 of those at the moment.) What are you guys finding useful and having fun with? I've been eyeing a Land Speeder or Scout Bike squad. I'd like to pick up something with the intent of using it as a quick objective grabber. I know transports and deep striking are another option as well, but if it had to be something from the Fast Attack category, what would you go with and why?
While I’ve only used them in one list, Scout bikers seem to be pretty decent and fun.
They are fast.
They have a ton of guns, most of which can be assault. So they can move, assault move (always 6” turbo boost), then shoot with the AGL and their shotguns.
CC? They have pistols and combat knives for extra stabbing. Don’t want to be in CC? Cluster mines for 1CP, d3 MWs on a 2+.
They interact nicely with some other stratagems and CTs. UM can fall back, cluster mine, and still shoot. WS have a lot of perks.
And they don’t cost that much.
I’ve not been as impressed with my land speeders. The TLM/HB that has been my go-to for a while now seems very overpriced for what it does. And with the -1 to hit for shooting heavy weapons on the move, it no longer fills the niche of mobile firepower it used to. I’ve had a little more success with my old lead MM/HF, but am still not sure it’s worth it.
Bikes and AMs seem OK.
Interesting, I have always wanted to put scouts bikers in my army, but never done it. Maybe now is the time ?
godardc wrote: Ok I see.
I have only used one since 8th dropped, and it didn't end well.
I'm going to play a dread with twin lined heavy flamer and a heavy flamer next week. I think it will be good with the Ultramarine CT.
Any experience with such a dread ?
It's a decent blender but do you have a good plan to get it out there to make its points?
I thought of a stormraven for transportation, I guess it is its the only way, now.
While I’ve only used them in one list, Scout bikers seem to be pretty decent and fun.
They are fast.
They have a ton of guns, most of which can be assault. So they can move, assault move (always 6” turbo boost), then shoot with the AGL and their shotguns.
CC? They have pistols and combat knives for extra stabbing. Don’t want to be in CC? Cluster mines for 1CP, d3 MWs on a 2+.
They interact nicely with some other stratagems and CTs. UM can fall back, cluster mine, and still shoot. WS have a lot of perks.
And they don’t cost that much.
I’ve not been as impressed with my land speeders. The TLM/HB that has been my go-to for a while now seems very overpriced for what it does. And with the -1 to hit for shooting heavy weapons on the move, it no longer fills the niche of mobile firepower it used to. I’ve had a little more success with my old lead MM/HF, but am still not sure it’s worth it.
Bikes and AMs seem OK.
I can't help but feel like I'm leaning towards Scout Bikers over the Land Speeder. The Land Speeder sounds fun to use but I feel like the Scout Bikers might actually accomplish something. For nearly the same points cost I can either get 1 model with merely a single Heavy Bolter, or three bikes that, when in Rapid Fire range, are shooting 4 Bolter Shots and (correct me if I'm wrong) 2 shots from a Shotgun as well, for a total of 18 shots going out. Of course the advantage of a Land Speeder is that if I want to I can slap a Multi-Melta on it and have it try and go pop something deadly at the start of the game, or redeploy to wherever it may be needed by flying over terrain and enemies. But even still, the Bikes are pretty fast and if positioned correctly should be able to get where I need them in just a turn or two, provided they don't die, but that brings me to my next point. These two units almost share the same stat line in terms of their survivability, the only difference being that the Land Speeder has a higher save at 3+, where as the Bikers get 4+. In addition to this, each time a Biker dies I'll be losing some of my firepower.
I really like both the models though, I'm just worried that the Land Speeder may leave a bit to be desired on the tabletop.
So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
If you want a fast attack obj grabber, go for Attack Bikes.
47pts with the HB, 4 wounds, 3+ save, turbo-boost for 20" movement.
Cheap, fast and can take a wound or two before dying.
Scout bikers are also pretty decent for that role. Speeders are not, they're definitely better in a support role for other units.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
Keep in mind that sternguard can use a sweet stratagem (+1 to wound IIRC)
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
Keep in mind that sternguard can use a sweet stratagem (+1 to wound IIRC)
Which has led to me question if I want to keep them as having 10 Combi weapon and 10 SIB. If I took the Combi away, I could afford a ton more stuff.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
In one list I had Lias Infiltrate x2 10 man squads with Grav Cannons and it did pretty awesomely.
Intercessors don't bring the same offensive power, but their durability makes them the best objective camper we have available.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
In one list I had Lias Infiltrate x2 10 man squads with Grav Cannons and it did pretty awesomely.
Intercessors don't bring the same offensive power, but their durability makes them the best objective camper we have available.
I have two Squads of Intercessors already. My Sternguard are 5 Combi Plasma, 5 Combi Melta, and 10 SIB. Since the Combi Squads are riding in Razorbacks, it might take a bit before they can really deliver. I really like the Sternguard Strategem, so I think they will stay for now.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys, what does a competitive Black Templars list look like in 8th?
You want Deep Striking melee and rush forward. I basically do that with Minotaurs and Asterion, so I imagine you may have success doing the same thing.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
Keep in mind that sternguard can use a sweet stratagem (+1 to wound IIRC)
Which has led to me question if I want to keep them as having 10 Combi weapon and 10 SIB. If I took the Combi away, I could afford a ton more stuff.
I stopped using combi for mine. They still wound rhino and dread on 4+ with this stratagem, it is pretty good, especially with their volume of fire.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
In one list I had Lias Infiltrate x2 10 man squads with Grav Cannons and it did pretty awesomely.
Intercessors don't bring the same offensive power, but their durability makes them the best objective camper we have available.
I have two Squads of Intercessors already. My Sternguard are 5 Combi Plasma, 5 Combi Melta, and 10 SIB. Since the Combi Squads are riding in Razorbacks, it might take a bit before they can really deliver. I really like the Sternguard Strategem, so I think they will stay for now.
I tend to think that sternguard have had their day.
Sternguard with combi-weapons feel - to me at least - like they are outclassed by hellblasters - of either the assault or rapid fire varieties. I get that you can fire the bolters as well, and the stratagem is good, but having two wounds each makes a vast difference - as does having two shots at 24".
And intercessors are obviously better than the standard guys too. Again, a second wound is vastly better than a point of AP. Here though at least you do bring some stuff to the table that the hellblasters don't - you can fit 10 of them in a rhino (or whatever), jump out and pop the stratagem. It gives you a fairly good strike against whatever you're shooting... but to be honest it's hard to get all that excited about.
So personally I don't see a really compelling reason to bring Sternguard. If you've got some, cool. I have only 5, and no particular plans to use them.
Sternguard are one of the last ways for infantry to carry Heavy Flamers. I tend to use them for that purpose and have them ride in a transport. Outside of that, they're just not as versatile now that they can't use special issue ammo and combi-weapons simultaneously. The extra -1 AP on the gun does make a difference though, and they can be fine in a larger squad with bare special issue bolters.
wtwlf123 wrote: Sternguard are one of the last ways for infantry to carry Heavy Flamers. I tend to use them for that purpose and have them ride in a transport. Outside of that, they're just not as versatile now that they can't use special issue ammo and combi-weapons simultaneously. The extra -1 AP on the gun does make a difference though, and they can be fine in a larger squad with bare special issue bolters.
How aren't they versatile though? They got basically two of the ammos in one gun for a price not much more than regular Marines (and it is 3 ammos if you go Imperial Fists basically), and can get you a fix of special weapons or heavy weapons.
Usually when people are saying Sternguard are versatile, they're talking about the Helfire Rounds. This is better than that.
There were some important modes on the old special ammo that are gone now. But bigger than that is the fact that you lose combi-weapons that can also fire special issue ammo. The new combined ammo is better than the old gets hot rounds, but I can't carry the ammo inside my combi weapons, so I lost a good chunk of what I used my old Sternguard for.
wtwlf123 wrote: There were some important modes on the old special ammo that are gone now. But bigger than that is the fact that you lose combi-weapons that can also fire special issue ammo. The new combined ammo is better than the old gets hot rounds, but I can't carry the ammo inside my combi weapons, so I lost a good chunk of what I used my old Sternguard for.
If you were giving them Combi-Weapons, it was for a suicide. It isn't like they were gonna use any special ammo after that drop.
If they ever managed to do that, your opponent is bad for letting that free KP or objective grabber stay that long.
They managed to do just fine in that role pre-8th. Sorry you couldn't make them work for you, but I had lots of success. They were kitted with Combi-Weapons to be able to handle multiple different types of targets, and they could discharge combi-Meltas to destroy one target, and switch to using special issue ammo after that. Can't do that anymore, so they've lost the versatility I got from them in previous editions. They were far more than just a suicide squad. Rhinos losing fire points lost a lot of their value though. Being able to cruise around and use 2x heavy flamer out of a rhino, or disembark and unload combi-meltas, or unleash special issue ammo against a whole range of various targets was useful. All that versatility is gone now, and the unit functions completely different than it used to.
wtwlf123 wrote: they could discharge combi-Meltas to destroy one target, and switch to using special issue ammo after that.
See that's the part I'm questioning. If they're doing a suicide drop they're dying afterwards. Your opponent just let them sit there afterwards? They're 30 point models that die like Tactical Marines so I'm questioning your opponent's decision making skills.
Again, it wasn't a suicide drop. I chose my targets carefully, to minimize backlash by positioning my other targets accordingly. If they were going to get annihilated in the opponent's next action, I wouldn't position them there. It's not rocket surgery.
There's more ways to play this game than I think you believe exist. Not everything has to go according to how you'd use them, and not all success people have comes from playing against opponents playing poorly.
You chose carefully with a drop Pod and then 5-10 30 point models not dying? I'm having a hard time buying that because if that were really the case it'd be blowing tournaments away.
New Sternguard are just as good, if not better, thanks to the much lower buy-in.
No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...
New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.
wtwlf123 wrote: No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...
New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.
That has been my biggest turn off as well. I wish they had an upgrade for Combi weapons that gave them SI Ammo. I would gladly pay 2-3 pts extra on a Combi weapon for that.
Yup. And pre-8th, they could. They had combi-weapons that had 4 other shooting options. It was awesome. Now we have to choose between the two, and despite the base special ammo shots being better, they lost a lot of their versatility.
Have you played a leviathan dread since 8th dropped ?
A friend of mine is fielding one soon, and would like to have advices, and I am myself a bit curious
wtwlf123 wrote: No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...
New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.
Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.
wtwlf123 wrote: No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...
New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.
Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.
Agreed. Though now, in 8e, I have been putting them in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods are just too expensive, even after their point drop.
wtwlf123 wrote: No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...
New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.
Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.
Agreed. Though now, in 8e, I have been putting them in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods are just too expensive, even after their point drop.
Like I said, I've used x2 10 Man squads with Grav Cannons and moving them up with Lias. It was super effective and I recommend trying it at least once.
wtwlf123 wrote: No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...
New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.
Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.
Agreed. Though now, in 8e, I have been putting them in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods are just too expensive, even after their point drop.
Like I said, I've used x2 10 Man squads with Grav Cannons and moving them up with Lias. It was super effective and I recommend trying it at least once.
I don't have the right army for it. I have Pedro Kantor to give out Rerolls and make charging my Sternguard a terrible idea, though.
wtwlf123 wrote: No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...
New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.
Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.
Agreed. Though now, in 8e, I have been putting them in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods are just too expensive, even after their point drop.
Like I said, I've used x2 10 Man squads with Grav Cannons and moving them up with Lias. It was super effective and I recommend trying it at least once.
I don't have the right army for it. I have Pedro Kantor to give out Rerolls and make charging my Sternguard a terrible idea, though.
Fair enough. Definitely proxy it once though. My Lias is gonna be a nice looking Heavy Bolter model once I get all my bitz and kits in. Gonna be nice to play my OWN army again I can tell you that!
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
I've been sticking 9 Sternguard with special-issue boltguns in a drop pod along with a captain, warlord traited with Storm of Fire. This trait synergises really well with the Masterful Marksmanship stratagem because it triggers on wound rolls of 6 or more, not natural sixes. Anything T7 or less is therefore wounded on a 4+ or better with a -2 or -3 AP. That covers a lot of vehicles which usually think themselves safe from a squad of souped-up tactical marines
The drop pod is a little pricey but I like how it lets me deploy the Sternguard exactly where I want them, and it keeps them completely safe from any alpha strike shenanigans at only 30 points over a Rhino. Note that this is not a suicide drop squad. They're supposed to go in and bolster the main force.
Hmmm, Masterful Marksmanship combined with Storm of Fire and the Rhino Primaris's Servo Skull +1 to Hit could lead to a ton of shots coming out of my unit of 10 Sternguard. I suppose I could give my Fist of Vengeance Captain Storm of Fire over giving Pedro Kantor Tenacious Opponent. I think I might do that. If I throw down Bolter Drill as well, they will vaporize just about anything in their path due to the shear number of wounds they would be putting out.
Audustum wrote: Has anyone played the Relic Falchion? Thoughts on taking it in a TAC as the anti-tank source then dedicating the remaining points to other jobs?
I haven't used mine yet, but I've given it a lot of thought.
Ultimately I'm not convinced it's all that good for its price. The firepower is actually not that much better than you would get from the ~4 predator-equivalent vehicles you could have for the same amount of points. The falchion is very tough but probably not tougher than they would be, and it's a hell of a lot of eggs to put in one basket.
Having said that, there are advantages too. As a single model you can put buffs and psychic powers onto a falchion more easily than you could with 4 other units. And of course there's the fact that things that get shot by it end up so very, very dead.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?
As stock footsloggers? No way.
But Sternguard aren't intended to just footslog, and theu certainly aren't intended to be stock.
Consider that Sternguard can ride in a ton of different transports - Rhino, Razorback, or Drop Pod.
Sternguard can bring Heavy Flamers, they can spam Combi-weapons, and they can swap Special Issue Boltguns for effectively free if you want volume of fire over AP.
Intercessors can... Ride in one 300 point tank? Swap out their base gun for two other generally worse options? Uh... Take an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What are everyone's thoughts on bikers and assault marines? I'm thinking that in a competetive meta (guard spam, assassin spam, etc,) I'm not going to be able to outshoot my opponent, but being able to outmanuever them and get into good positions could be really potent. I want to try a list build on bikers, Drop Pods, assault marines, biker Company Vets, and Vanguard Vets, but can't decide if it's viable or if they're just too pricey for the return.
stratigo wrote: assault marines might be the worst entry in the codex.
Bikers are still good. Not sure if they are competitive good, I haven't been tempted to take mine in a competitive game, but they work casually.
I was leaning towards them as a way to hopefully get around screening units. (It wouldn't stop full bubble wrap, but would at least counter screening lines of infantry.) Any suggestion for a substitute for that purpose?
stratigo wrote: assault marines might be the worst entry in the codex.
Bikers are still good. Not sure if they are competitive good, I haven't been tempted to take mine in a competitive game, but they work casually.
I was leaning towards them as a way to hopefully get around screening units. (It wouldn't stop full bubble wrap, but would at least counter screening lines of infantry.) Any suggestion for a substitute for that purpose?
Vanguard vets. They're just all around better. Even with base chainswords, they work out better. Albeit if you are intending to use them to get around the squishy screens, maybe more substantial weapons are worth it to hit tanks and such.
I will only ever take Assault Marines for fluff reasons currently. VV do it all better for a marginal increase in points. Bikers I actually prefer Scout Bikers this edition. More anti infantry shooting and a little faster for not much less durability. I have never been huge on biker units of any variety though.
The way I get around screens is by baiting them forward. I feel Space Marines are better at shooting than at assault in general. So I build a strong shooting base and force my opponent to come to me. Usually turn 2-3 there will be space and that's when I bring in my VV or Inceptors to hit their back field.
Captain Garius wrote: I will only ever take Assault Marines for fluff reasons currently. VV do it all better for a marginal increase in points. Bikers I actually prefer Scout Bikers this edition. More anti infantry shooting and a little faster for not much less durability. I have never been huge on biker units of any variety though.
The way I get around screens is by baiting them forward. I feel Space Marines are better at shooting than at assault in general. So I build a strong shooting base and force my opponent to come to me. Usually turn 2-3 there will be space and that's when I bring in my VV or Inceptors to hit their back field.
On that subject - It seems like Double-Chainswords is a lot better than Chainsword/Pistol for a close combat unit, and VV are allowed to take it. Any reason not to do that?
Captain Garius wrote: I will only ever take Assault Marines for fluff reasons currently. VV do it all better for a marginal increase in points. Bikers I actually prefer Scout Bikers this edition. More anti infantry shooting and a little faster for not much less durability. I have never been huge on biker units of any variety though.
The way I get around screens is by baiting them forward. I feel Space Marines are better at shooting than at assault in general. So I build a strong shooting base and force my opponent to come to me. Usually turn 2-3 there will be space and that's when I bring in my VV or Inceptors to hit their back field.
On that subject - It seems like Double-Chainswords is a lot better than Chainsword/Pistol for a close combat unit, and VV are allowed to take it. Any reason not to do that?
Because Plasma Pistols and Grav Pistols exist. Otherwise it's pretty even I would think outside special rules (like Tyberos giving +1S for example).
Captain Garius wrote: I will only ever take Assault Marines for fluff reasons currently. VV do it all better for a marginal increase in points. Bikers I actually prefer Scout Bikers this edition. More anti infantry shooting and a little faster for not much less durability. I have never been huge on biker units of any variety though.
The way I get around screens is by baiting them forward. I feel Space Marines are better at shooting than at assault in general. So I build a strong shooting base and force my opponent to come to me. Usually turn 2-3 there will be space and that's when I bring in my VV or Inceptors to hit their back field.
On that subject - It seems like Double-Chainswords is a lot better than Chainsword/Pistol for a close combat unit, and VV are allowed to take it. Any reason not to do that?
The only reason I don't is because I don't want to rip off the arms and put new ones on. Dual chainsword is better as far as I am concerned.
Because Plasma Pistols and Grav Pistols exist. Otherwise it's pretty even I would think outside special rules (like Tyberos giving +1S for example).
I like them with one of these and a chainsword as well, but once again I am trying to avoid either buying more or ripping them apart. The only real consideration is that the melee weapons work on both your and your opponents turn, where the pistol only works in yours.
I think you can make a case for a bolt pistol over the second chainsword.
1) You have to make your charge for to use the sword, which granted, may be easier if the squad hasn't killed anybody from shooting.
2) You have to survive your opponent's fight phase (or he can just leave, so the pistol is better against all units with fly or IG, unless they just want to be there) to get the extra attack (the one in your turn being the equivalent of a bolt pistol shot).
3) You can split-fire the pistol at another unit.
4) Ranged weapons may allow you to finish off a weakened screening unit or at least make a hole.
That said, I think at least one guy should be double melee, as the dedicated grenade thrower.
On a different note, I've seen a lot of people talk about Intercessors as objective holders, and I'm wondering how much of that comes from competitive players. I haven't had a "serious" game of 40k last beyond turn 4, most being decided by turn 2 and with turn 3 being mop up for the winner, so I'm failing to see why they'd ever be taken over the bubblewrap/cheapness of Scouts or the minorly improved killing power of Tacs. Am I missing something, has anybody placed well with Ints?
Perth wrote: I think you can make a case for a bolt pistol over the second chainsword.
1) You have to make your charge for to use the sword, which granted, may be easier if the squad hasn't killed anybody from shooting.
2) You have to survive your opponent's fight phase (or he can just leave, so the pistol is better against all units with fly or IG, unless they just want to be there) to get the extra attack (the one in your turn being the equivalent of a bolt pistol shot).
3) You can split-fire the pistol at another unit.
4) Ranged weapons may allow you to finish off a weakened screening unit or at least make a hole.
That said, I think at least one guy should be double melee, as the dedicated grenade thrower.
That 'Grenade Thrower' thing works doubly well if you take Melta Bombs. Those are definite benefits of the pistols, but you do have to consider that a -1 to-hit with Ranged weapons is far more common than in close combat, so you're more likely to be taking penalties when you use those pistols.
On a different note, I've seen a lot of people talk about Intercessors as objective holders, and I'm wondering how much of that comes from competitive players. I haven't had a "serious" game of 40k last beyond turn 4, most being decided by turn 2 and with turn 3 being mop up for the winner, so I'm failing to see why they'd ever be taken over the bubblewrap/cheapness of Scouts or the minorly improved killing power of Tacs. Am I missing something, has anybody placed well with Ints?
Maelstrom games come to mind. In Maelstrom, you need to have objective-scoring power throughout the entire game, not just turn one. (It's my opinion that Maelstrom games are far more balanced overall than Eternal War, because while there could be a couple bad draws, there's ways to mitigate that with Command Points or by finishing other cards, and it generally evens out throughout the game.) That being said, games do tend to end in wipes about 90% of the time, in my experience.
In Maelstrom, yes. I haven't had an eternal war mission go the distance yet. I generally use mine as a screen for my devastators. People don't like shooting them first and they are passable in Melee. Or you can take the auto bolt rifles and use them as a decently quick foot slogging objective grabber.
Perth wrote: I think you can make a case for a bolt pistol over the second chainsword.
1) You have to make your charge for to use the sword, which granted, may be easier if the squad hasn't killed anybody from shooting.
2) You have to survive your opponent's fight phase (or he can just leave, so the pistol is better against all units with fly or IG, unless they just want to be there) to get the extra attack (the one in your turn being the equivalent of a bolt pistol shot).
3) You can split-fire the pistol at another unit.
4) Ranged weapons may allow you to finish off a weakened screening unit or at least make a hole.
That said, I think at least one guy should be double melee, as the dedicated grenade thrower.
On a different note, I've seen a lot of people talk about Intercessors as objective holders, and I'm wondering how much of that comes from competitive players. I haven't had a "serious" game of 40k last beyond turn 4, most being decided by turn 2 and with turn 3 being mop up for the winner, so I'm failing to see why they'd ever be taken over the bubblewrap/cheapness of Scouts or the minorly improved killing power of Tacs. Am I missing something, has anybody placed well with Ints?
I'm competitive and am content with Intercessors doing objective holding. They're basically doing what Tactical Marines were trying to do in terms of camping home objectives. They really just made the Tactical Marine entry even more worthless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of killing power...Tactical Marines don't have any, so no sure why you brought that up.
On a different note, I've seen a lot of people talk about Intercessors as objective holders, and I'm wondering how much of that comes from competitive players. I haven't had a "serious" game of 40k last beyond turn 4, most being decided by turn 2 and with turn 3 being mop up for the winner, so I'm failing to see why they'd ever be taken over the bubblewrap/cheapness of Scouts or the minorly improved killing power of Tacs. Am I missing something, has anybody placed well with Ints?
I'm competitive and am content with Intercessors doing objective holding. They're basically doing what Tactical Marines were trying to do in terms of camping home objectives. They really just made the Tactical Marine entry even more worthless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of killing power...Tactical Marines don't have any, so no sure why you brought that up.
I tend to agree that obsec is over-valued in general. It's very rare in eternal war missions for two units to finish the game on an objective. Typically, if one of those units is troops, then the other unit will be some monster cc unit and will have already killed them.
On the other hand, there are a lot of uses for a tough troops choice beyond scoring at the end of the game. In 8th the main one of these is as a screen to protect my more valuable units. Intercessors in cover make very effective bubblewrap due to their low point/wound. They are particularly useful against smite spam, as they take quite a lot of wounds to kill. They can also often survive a charge, then fall back and allow the rest of your army to punish whoever attacked them. You can potentially use auspex scan on them if there are no aggressors or hellblasters around, and it might see off a few plasma scions.
Their shooting and cc abilities are both respectable, if not spectacular. They can be expected to wear down other people's troops, given time, and since they tend not to be a priority target for anyone they often get time.
Intercessors are well-named. Their job is to get in the way.
Questions:
Am I better off taking bikes with pure Plasma (3-man squads) or with some buffer bodies? (5-man squads.) Two Plasma Bikers are costed the same as three regular bikers. It's a significant damage buff, but I rather expect some of them to die right off the bat, making the extra firepower less useful.
Also: Thoughts on the Rhino Primaris in a plasma-heavy Iron Hands army? That +1 To-Hit gets rid of any risk when Getting Hot, the Orbital Bombardment - Combined with the Iron Hands strategem to move and fire with no penalty - Can get in some great Anti Tank, and it's a Razorback as far as transport capacity is concerned.
It's also 70pts more than a Razorback, though.
Waaaghpower wrote: Questions:
Am I better off taking bikes with pure Plasma (3-man squads) or with some buffer bodies? (5-man squads.) Two Plasma Bikers are costed the same as three regular bikers. It's a significant damage buff, but I rather expect some of them to die right off the bat, making the extra firepower less useful.
Also: Thoughts on the Rhino Primaris in a plasma-heavy Iron Hands army? That +1 To-Hit gets rid of any risk when Getting Hot, the Orbital Bombardment - Combined with the Iron Hands strategem to move and fire with no penalty - Can get in some great Anti Tank, and it's a Razorback as far as transport capacity is concerned.
It's also 70pts more than a Razorback, though.
I only like bikers with assault weapons because of their juicy tu no boost range. I typically go melta because if I wanted flames I'd just be taking scout bikers instead. As far as ablative bodies go it depends on what else is in your list. When I run bikers I also take centurions because similar weapons shoot at both, same could be said for Hellblasters. Since I have those I skip the extra bodies because the bikers are less of a threat, and having no ablative wounds is more likely to make my opponent make the mistake of shooting them instead of the better options. If you don't have any other multi wound infantry that looks scarier though then a few more bodies won't hurt.
I run a Rhino Primaris and a full unit of Hellblasters in almost all of my lists. Every time the combo is MVP. Even numbers wise I crunched them and Hellblasters with +1 to hit are both one of the most point efficient means of anti-tank/MC we have, as well as one of the most outright damaging. Plasma Inceptors and a full unit of Plasma Sternguard are similar in this regard, both in damage and points.
If you're going Bikes then Melta and/or Flamers because Assault Weapons. White Scars can make use of Plasma (and Grav) too.
Speaking of Flamers, how are people finding them? I get some mileage out of my BA Heavy Flamers but how do the regular flamers hold up?
Captain Garius wrote: I only like bikers with assault weapons because of their juicy tu no boost range. I typically go melta because if I wanted flames I'd just be taking scout bikers instead. As far as ablative bodies go it depends on what else is in your list. When I run bikers I also take centurions because similar weapons shoot at both, same could be said for Hellblasters. Since I have those I skip the extra bodies because the bikers are less of a threat, and having no ablative wounds is more likely to make my opponent make the mistake of shooting them instead of the better options. If you don't have any other multi wound infantry that looks scarier though then a few more bodies won't hurt.
I run a Rhino Primaris and a full unit of Hellblasters in almost all of my lists. Every time the combo is MVP. Even numbers wise I crunched them and Hellblasters with +1 to hit are both one of the most point efficient means of anti-tank/MC we have, as well as one of the most outright damaging. Plasma Inceptors and a full unit of Plasma Sternguard are similar in this regard, both in damage and points.
Frozocrone wrote: If you're going Bikes then Melta and/or Flamers because Assault Weapons. White Scars can make use of Plasma (and Grav) too.
Speaking of Flamers, how are people finding them? I get some mileage out of my BA Heavy Flamers but how do the regular flamers hold up?
That seems like a bad idea, because I'm not just taking bikes for the special weapon access. I'm taking them because, on top of those special weapons, I'm also getting pretty good Boltgun volume of fire.
If I take Melta and advance, a 44pt model is getting one half of a melta hit.
If I don't advance, I'm getting two thirds of that hit, plus three Boltgun hits. It's a massive drop-off in damage.
Plasma can't advance, but it does have significantly more range than the other possibilities, which handily compensates - I don't NEED to advance to get into range.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You might need to advance to get an objective though or charge next turn. It's a super specific benefit though it exists I guess?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though Chaos wants Melta all the time if they're going Renegades.
Sure, I... Guess? But why am I charging with Bikers? They suck in Close Combat.
I'll eat the objective situation if it comes up. That seems like a fairly edge case.
Speaking of Command Tanks: Has anyone tried a Salamanders Land Raider Exelcior with the +1 Toughness relic and the +1W/6+ FNP Warlord Trait? It seems like just about the hardest thing to kill that Space Marines can take, outside of a few Super Heavy choices.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You might need to advance to get an objective though or charge next turn. It's a super specific benefit though it exists I guess?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though Chaos wants Melta all the time if they're going Renegades.
Sure, I... Guess? But why am I charging with Bikers? They suck in Close Combat.
I'll eat the objective situation if it comes up. That seems like a fairly edge case.
Speaking of Command Tanks: Has anyone tried a Salamanders Land Raider Exelcior with the +1 Toughness relic and the +1W/6+ FNP Warlord Trait? It seems like just about the hardest thing to kill that Space Marines can take, outside of a few Super Heavy choices.
They don't always suck in combat. Having used either Helbrecht, Tyberos, and Asterion they can REALLY close the gap quick, and with Tyberos your Carcharodons Bikers have S5 in melee, which helps immensely against T4 and T5 (and T9, but who cares about that?), along with being able to choose your Tactics for Minotaurs and Carcharodons (I've gone Salamanders for my Minotaurs armies and Black Templars for my Carcharodons armies, for example, as the heroes can cover other needs I might have). Too bad nothing stacks like it used to but I guess that's the price you pay for fairness.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You might need to advance to get an objective though or charge next turn. It's a super specific benefit though it exists I guess?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though Chaos wants Melta all the time if they're going Renegades.
Sure, I... Guess? But why am I charging with Bikers? They suck in Close Combat.
I'll eat the objective situation if it comes up. That seems like a fairly edge case.
Speaking of Command Tanks: Has anyone tried a Salamanders Land Raider Exelcior with the +1 Toughness relic and the +1W/6+ FNP Warlord Trait? It seems like just about the hardest thing to kill that Space Marines can take, outside of a few Super Heavy choices.
They don't always suck in combat. Having used either Helbrecht, Tyberos, and Asterion they can REALLY close the gap quick, and with Tyberos your Carcharodons Bikers have S5 in melee, which helps immensely against T4 and T5 (and T9, but who cares about that?), along with being able to choose your Tactics for Minotaurs and Carcharodons (I've gone Salamanders for my Minotaurs armies and Black Templars for my Carcharodons armies, for example, as the heroes can cover other needs I might have). Too bad nothing stacks like it used to but I guess that's the price you pay for fairness.
At that point, though, why not use Vanguard Vets? With double-chainswords, you get 4ppm for a measy 18pts. With special-weapon Bikes, you're spending well over twice that and getting half the attacks.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You might need to advance to get an objective though or charge next turn. It's a super specific benefit though it exists I guess?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though Chaos wants Melta all the time if they're going Renegades.
Sure, I... Guess? But why am I charging with Bikers? They suck in Close Combat.
I'll eat the objective situation if it comes up. That seems like a fairly edge case.
Speaking of Command Tanks: Has anyone tried a Salamanders Land Raider Exelcior with the +1 Toughness relic and the +1W/6+ FNP Warlord Trait? It seems like just about the hardest thing to kill that Space Marines can take, outside of a few Super Heavy choices.
They don't always suck in combat. Having used either Helbrecht, Tyberos, and Asterion they can REALLY close the gap quick, and with Tyberos your Carcharodons Bikers have S5 in melee, which helps immensely against T4 and T5 (and T9, but who cares about that?), along with being able to choose your Tactics for Minotaurs and Carcharodons (I've gone Salamanders for my Minotaurs armies and Black Templars for my Carcharodons armies, for example, as the heroes can cover other needs I might have). Too bad nothing stacks like it used to but I guess that's the price you pay for fairness.
At that point, though, why not use Vanguard Vets? With double-chainswords, you get 4ppm for a measy 18pts. With special-weapon Bikes, you're spending well over twice that and getting half the attacks.
You don't specifically because of those special weapons. They have the ability to pack so many in a small squad that you do a decent amount of damage and be able to charge and potentially finish off the shot squad.
1/ Melta guns, are they still worth it ? I have rarely been able to use my melta/ combimelta properly. The multimeltas are ok, though. So I was wondering if the melta on tactical and veterans (footlsogging, in rhino, storm, pod, whatever). were still ok, according to you ?
The overloaded plasma rifles (very easy to reroll 1's) wound a rhino on 3+ and do 2 damage, up to 24ps. A melta only shoots 12 or even 6 for getting special rule,and it takes at least 2 to kill a rhino, now. Against marine infantry, both wound on 2+. The melta has a slight advantage against characters (1d6 damage), but I have never seen a plasma rifle on its own. Plasma is very powerful and multipurpose, I do a lot more damages with it, usually.
Would you say that a squad of 4 company veterans with melta guns in a razorback is worst, better, or as good as the same squad with plasma rifles?
2/ Have you ever played a devastator squad full heavy bolters? The stratagem" hellfire shell" can be used for each model firing a heavy bolter (so 5 times here). This would give an average of 6 mortal wounds (with the cherub used). This is a good way to destroy a vehicle / character/ elite squad, while maintaining a good anti-infantry power. In general, have you used this stratagem?
3/ And eventually what heavy weapons are your tactical squad equipped with? I use missile launchers, I'm quite happy but I have not tested the heavy bolters nor the grav cannons yet.
1) How much anti-tank are you bringing, and how's it working out for you?
2) What's been your experience with the Raven Guard and Salamanders Chapter Tactics?
I'm currently running 3 Mortis Contemptor Dreadnaughts (2x Twin Lascannons each), and they had a hard time against Eldar Waveserpent spam; of course, my dice weren't with me.
As a result, I'm pretty sure I'll be adding a Twin-LC Razorback and a 4 Lascannon Heavy Devastator squad - the Salamander Chapter Tactic looks excellent for improving general damage output across the board; but the Raven Guard allowing me to deploy my 3 Dreadnaughts far into the backline (artillery has always been troublesome for my list) as well as increasing their protection - it seems like a really great deal.
2/ Have you ever played a devastator squad full heavy bolters? The stratagem" hellfire shell" can be used for each model firing a heavy bolter (so 5 times here). This would give an average of 6 mortal wounds (with the cherub used).
This is a good way to destroy a vehicle / character/ elite squad, while maintaining a good anti-infantry power.
In general, have you used this stratagem?
I'm pretty sure you can only use each stratagem once per phase, sadly.
I faced Salamanders today, and their chapter tactics is pretty brutal.
He had a lot of 5 men squad with las cannons, and a dread, and it worked perfectly.
My opponent has, IIRC, 8 lacannons in his army list, and it is enough for a standard game (not vehicle heavy)
godardc wrote: I faced Salamanders today, and their chapter tactics is pretty brutal.
He had a lot of 5 men squad with las cannons, and a dread, and it worked perfectly.
My opponent has, IIRC, 8 lacannons in his army list, and it is enough for a standard game (not vehicle heavy)
If it makes you feel better, just imagine how trash his list will be the first time he plays a multi-wound denial list made up of nothing but cheaper 1W models.
Plasma inceptors are hideously expensive but there's one scenario I keep thinking about.
10 helblasters placed with the from the shadows stratagem, preferably high up into cover.
6 plasma inceptors dropping down, preferably high up into cover.
1 regular captain with a jump pack and 1 regular Lt. with a jump pack so they can drop in with the plasma troops to provide buffs.
6 bolter inceptors if needed to clear out some scouts or other deep strike deterrents the turn before the plasma inceptors drop down.
It's expensive but that's a lot of plasma with flexible deployment. If battlefield conditions aren't right I don't have to shadow strike the hellblasters and deep strike the jump troops but it is possible. And the jump troops in particular can be pretty flexible in redeployment.
I'm not very experienced in 40k, would something like that be feasible or just a very expensive blunder?
snottlebocket wrote: Plasma inceptors are hideously expensive but there's one scenario I keep thinking about.
10 helblasters placed with the from the shadows stratagem, preferably high up into cover.
6 plasma inceptors dropping down, preferably high up into cover.
1 regular captain with a jump pack and 1 regular Lt. with a jump pack so they can drop in with the plasma troops to provide buffs.
6 bolter inceptors if needed to clear out some scouts or other deep strike deterrents the turn before the plasma inceptors drop down.
It's expensive but that's a lot of plasma with flexible deployment. If battlefield conditions aren't right I don't have to shadow strike the hellblasters and deep strike the jump troops but it is possible. And the jump troops in particular can be pretty flexible in redeployment.
I'm not very experienced in 40k, would something like that be feasible or just a very expensive blunder?
argonak wrote: What are people's thoughts on Centurion Devestator Squads?
Either with a heavy dakka load out, or with a lascannon load out for anti-tank?
How do they look hanging out with Primaris, do they fit in? Or would lascannon preds just be a better source of anti-tank?
Seems like a good matchup with ancient and apothecary.
They are too expensive. They are effective at what they do, but the platform is just too many points. You can run three Venerable Dreadnoughts with Missile Launchers and Twin Lascannons for 30 pts more, and have nearly three times the wounds, better WS/BS, and the ability to ignore wounds on a 6.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd say Grav Cannon and Hurricane Bolters are the way to go. They're so expensive for no disernable reason though.
For 100 pts less, you can have a 10-man Dev Squad with 4 Grav Cannons though. Sure, fewer shots due to no Hurricane Bolters, but more Grav Cannon shots, ablative wounds, and a ton cheaper. Unfortunately, I just don't see the point behind the Dev Cent anymore.
I'm torn between my ever continuing quest to convert a power armour captain I like or just get the new primaris one!
Are the primaris captains competitive. I can see running a gravis one with aggressors and putting the tacticus armour one with hellblasters. This would then mean putting my power armour chaplain with my melee company vets lieutenant ancient apothecary and company champ.
The orbital bombardment stratagem look very random, too much random in fact in my opinion.
Have you had any experience using it ?
No wolves on Fenris wrote: I'm torn between my ever continuing quest to convert a power armour captain I like or just get the new primaris one!
Are the primaris captains competitive. I can see running a gravis one with aggressors and putting the tacticus armour one with hellblasters. This would then mean putting my power armour chaplain with my melee company vets lieutenant ancient apothecary and company champ.
Does this sound like an ok idea?
For me, it seems ok.
Why are you putting the gravis captain with the aggressors and the tacticus one with the hellblaster, any reason ?
argonak wrote: What are people's thoughts on Centurion Devestator Squads?
Either with a heavy dakka load out, or with a lascannon load out for anti-tank?
How do they look hanging out with Primaris, do they fit in? Or would lascannon preds just be a better source of anti-tank?
Seems like a good matchup with ancient and apothecary.
They are too expensive. They are effective at what they do, but the platform is just too many points. You can run three Venerable Dreadnoughts with Missile Launchers and Twin Lascannons for 30 pts more, and have nearly three times the wounds, better WS/BS, and the ability to ignore wounds on a 6.
To be fair, the devastator centurions would have an extra shot each on average with their missiles - though they'd be less accurate so the point is kind of moot.
Devastator centurions suffer from being designed for a previous edition, in which twin lascannons were rather less good and guns didn't do multiple wounds. In this edition they have far too many guns, at far too high a cost, to be a viable infantry model. They are insane glass cannons and the obvious #1 target in any list. They pay so much for their guns, and the base platform is so expensive as well, that they each cost more than some tanks - falling somewhere between the cost of a twin-las razorback and a predator.
The one thing you can do with them is to stick them in a fortification. Even that isn't great, as it means they can't be affected by anything from outside - such as the aura from your captain.
Frozocrone wrote: If you're going Bikes then Melta and/or Flamers because Assault Weapons. White Scars can make use of Plasma (and Grav) too.
Speaking of Flamers, how are people finding them? I get some mileage out of my BA Heavy Flamers but how do the regular flamers hold up?
That seems like a bad idea, because I'm not just taking bikes for the special weapon access. I'm taking them because, on top of those special weapons, I'm also getting pretty good Boltgun volume of fire.
If I take Melta and advance, a 44pt model is getting one half of a melta hit.
If I don't advance, I'm getting two thirds of that hit, plus three Boltgun hits. It's a massive drop-off in damage.
Plasma can't advance, but it does have significantly more range than the other possibilities, which handily compensates - I don't NEED to advance to get into range.
That is a valid point, but you won't always turbo boost. It just lets you have the option, plus this is one of the best ways to bring flames and melta gins to bear on valuable targets. Also if you want bolters take scout bikes instead. Anything that isn't flames or melta works just as well on pretty much any other platform.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
godardc wrote: I have some questions about the armament !
1/ Melta guns, are they still worth it ?
I have rarely been able to use my melta/ combimelta properly.
The multimeltas are ok, though.
So I was wondering if the melta on tactical and veterans (footlsogging, in rhino, storm, pod, whatever). were still ok, according to you ?
The overloaded plasma rifles (very easy to reroll 1's) wound a rhino on 3+ and do 2 damage, up to 24ps.
A melta only shoots 12 or even 6 for getting special rule,and it takes at least 2 to kill a rhino, now.
Against marine infantry, both wound on 2+. The melta has a slight advantage against characters (1d6 damage), but I have never seen a plasma rifle on its own.
Plasma is very powerful and multipurpose, I do a lot more damages with it, usually.
Would you say that a squad of 4 company veterans with melta guns in a razorback is worst, better, or as good as the same squad with plasma rifles?
2/ Have you ever played a devastator squad full heavy bolters? The stratagem" hellfire shell" can be used for each model firing a heavy bolter (so 5 times here). This would give an average of 6 mortal wounds (with the cherub used).
This is a good way to destroy a vehicle / character/ elite squad, while maintaining a good anti-infantry power.
In general, have you used this stratagem?
3/ And eventually what heavy weapons are your tactical squad equipped with? I use missile launchers, I'm quite happy but I have not tested the heavy bolters nor the grav cannons yet.
1. I find melta to be situationally useful. I take it in lists where I don't want a Gunline component as an alternative to Lascannons. The biggest issue is gettin it to bear where it is needed, this is why I like it on bikers. Against almost everything it is a cheaper Lascannon with a quarter the range. Plan accordingly and it can be useful. Plasma is great, but it has limitations. Against high wound models you will want more, and they require buffs, either through refills or +1 to hit. They are a very good TAC type weapon, but comparing 4 plasma to 4 melta isn't a fair comparison, it depends some on what else is in your list, but even more on what you are using it for. That said I don't typically use transports for melta. The new disembark rules make it hard to guarantee it will get there.
2. I play Match rules, so no. Typically I avoid Heavy Bolters on devastators, or really in general. Only time I change my mind is if I am running Imperial/Crimson fists. I do tend to put them in my scout squads if I have points left over though.
3. I only ever use Grav Cannons as a heavy weapon in my Tacs. Otherwise I prefer plasma/flamer/melta because they should be mobile. Otherwise take devastators.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
argonak wrote: What are people's thoughts on Centurion Devestator Squads?
Either with a heavy dakka load out, or with a lascannon load out for anti-tank?
How do they look hanging out with Primaris, do they fit in? Or would lascannon preds just be a better source of anti-tank?
Seems like a good matchup with ancient and apothecary.
The problem with them is their price. I will never run the Lascannon/Missile combo. 6 of them are almost 1k points. Basically the only reason to take them is if you want to consolidate buffs. Juicy Interceptor Stratagem, Bolter Drill, +1 to hit... Something like that. Then they can be point efficient but it is still a struggle. I would never take them without an ancient and an apothecary though. Grav is better than the Heavy Bolters unless you are going for Bolter Drill.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
godardc wrote: The orbital bombardment stratagem look very random, too much random in fact in my opinion.
Have you had any experience using it ?
No wolves on Fenris wrote: I'm torn between my ever continuing quest to convert a power armour captain I like or just get the new primaris one!
Are the primaris captains competitive. I can see running a gravis one with aggressors and putting the tacticus armour one with hellblasters. This would then mean putting my power armour chaplain with my melee company vets lieutenant ancient apothecary and company champ.
Does this sound like an ok idea?
For me, it seems ok.
Why are you putting the gravis captain with the aggressors and the tacticus one with the hellblaster, any reason ?
Orbital Bombardment is an attack of opportunity. People like to stick close for buffs, so it can be easy to hit 3-5 units with it. I have used it in two games, and it did work in both. Worth the command points? It is if you aren't running a list that needs a lot of them. If you are building in units to use with them though you'll probably never have it be useful though... Unless Ultras lol.
The Primaris captains are interesting. I would never take the regular one. You take captains like that to be cheap buffers, and a power armor captain does that better. I do like the Gravis one though (Captain Dad-bod). He buffs, and is a good melee deterrent. Ok short ranged gun and a lot of melee threat.
Frozocrone wrote: If you're going Bikes then Melta and/or Flamers because Assault Weapons. White Scars can make use of Plasma (and Grav) too.
Speaking of Flamers, how are people finding them? I get some mileage out of my BA Heavy Flamers but how do the regular flamers hold up?
That seems like a bad idea, because I'm not just taking bikes for the special weapon access. I'm taking them because, on top of those special weapons, I'm also getting pretty good Boltgun volume of fire.
If I take Melta and advance, a 44pt model is getting one half of a melta hit.
If I don't advance, I'm getting two thirds of that hit, plus three Boltgun hits. It's a massive drop-off in damage.
Plasma can't advance, but it does have significantly more range than the other possibilities, which handily compensates - I don't NEED to advance to get into range.
That is a valid point, but you won't always turbo boost. It just lets you have the option, plus this is one of the best ways to bring flames and melta gins to bear on valuable targets. Also if you want bolters take scout bikes instead. Anything that isn't flames or melta works just as well on pretty much any other platform.
The reason I'm looking at bikes is because they can fill several roles simultaneously. The Plasma is universally good against 90% of targets, and anything that it can't hurt is either so tanky that other special weapons wouldn't do the trick anyways (Stuff that needs to be killed with Lascannons or other S9+ weapons) or hordey units that the Boltguns will provide adequate utility against. They're also relatively cheap access to special weapons, point-for-point, they're pretty tanky and require either a pretty high amount of firepower (60+ bolter or lasgun hits, if you don't have cover) or else fairly strong, dedicated firepower. They are fast enough to get where they need to be, and are very damage-efficient. (Three models can put out as much firepower as nearly a full squad of Tactical Marines, at least if we pretend that tactical marines take two Special Weapons instead of a Heavy weapon.)
If I *just* wanted to spam special weapons with no consideration for anything else, I'd just... I dunno, jam Company Veterans or combi-weapon Sternguard into a Drop Pod.
Orbital Bombardment is an attack of opportunity. People like to stick close for buffs, so it can be easy to hit 3-5 units with it. I have used it in two games, and it did work in both. Worth the command points? It is if you aren't running a list that needs a lot of them. If you are building in units to use with them though you'll probably never have it be useful though... Unless Ultras lol.
The Primaris captains are interesting. I would never take the regular one. You take captains like that to be cheap buffers, and a power armor captain does that better. I do like the Gravis one though (Captain Dad-bod). He buffs, and is a good melee deterrent. Ok short ranged gun and a lot of melee threat.
Orbital Bombardment is WAY too expensive for the output. Let's say you've got six or seven units within the potential blast radius (Which is about the most you're going to get.) Well, first, you're liable not to get all of those units because the actual blast radius is randomized. So we'll say five actual units get hit, unless you spend ANOTHER command point. If we assume a couple of those units are characters at the center of a buff battery, you're going to get like... Five Mortal Wounds in total, spread across several units, and that's the ideal circumstance, where things are really, really tightly grouped.
Those three Command Points are MUCH better spent elsewhere.
Contemptors, venerables and ironclads are all cool enough that I want to make a vanilla detachment for BA. Ironclad chainfist/hurricane bolter combo seems more versatile and competitive than a Furioso.
If you really want to send the dread, I'd suggest something anti horde that doesn't cost a fortune. Vanguard vets with 2 CW and maybe a power weapon or two just in case.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I would drop either Vanguard or LC Terminators of some kind. I've actually has okay luck with the LC loadout this edition.
If using LC termies I think your best option is to use Cataphractii or Tartaros - rather than assault terminators. They are cheaper, and better.
Thing is, I found it better to give them a storm bolter rather than their second LC. Then I found it better to give them power fists than their first LC. So I'm turning my cataphractii into normal fist/bolter guys. They are pretty good against everything, tough, and don't cost that much.
I used the one with the 6" move. Think that's Cata off the top of my head. I figured the extra couple of points was worth getting them into melee a little faster when they eventually have to walk.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I used the one with the 6" move. Think that's Cata off the top of my head. I figured the extra couple of points was worth getting them into melee a little faster when they eventually have to walk.
Tartaros actually. Cataphractii are the slow ones with the 4++.
In any case they cost the same or less than standard assault termies, are better, and have far nicer models. So if you want lightning claws you should never use the standard assault terminators.
That Cataphractii 4++ is really nice and often you are deep striking in anyway for double tap storm bolters and the 9" charge is consistent for anyone deep striking regardless of their normal move.
only reason you would ever take the normal terminators are for 3++ storm shields or the ability to reposition back into your own deployment. its good though you do abandon ANY character you deep strike with
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I used the one with the 6" move. Think that's Cata off the top of my head. I figured the extra couple of points was worth getting them into melee a little faster when they eventually have to walk.
Tartaros actually. Cataphractii are the slow ones with the 4++.
In any case they cost the same or less than standard assault termies, are better, and have far nicer models. So if you want lightning claws you should never use the standard assault terminators.
I already knew that. I've got two squads of pure TH/SS and the Tartaros with all Claws. It's worked pretty decently. I typically use Asterion with them to get the reroll on charges, which frees me a different Chapter Tactic besides Black Templars (which I do with a detachment of Carcharodons). I've used Salamanders and Ultramarines and White Scars, and I'm planning on Raven Guard or Iron Hands next (both of which help on the durability end, though Raven Guard works out better because I can infiltrate stuff instead of Deep Striking and get a guaranteed 1st turn charge against dumb things like Conscripts, ergo opening up hole for the Assault Terminators to go through and the scouts. Off topic though).
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greatgut wrote: Would have the terminators riding in the Stormraven to better guarantee that charge, or dropping in close by?
Possibly, but if I wanted to just use it as a gunboat that would interfere. Plus I do what I can to get rerolls on charges, so I'd rather drop off something less durable like Vanguard.
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combatcotton wrote: 5 Points more for +1 move? For a unit you plan on spilling at the enemy's door step anyway?
Unless you make use of their unique weapon options this is not worth it from my point of view.
Edit: I think we are talking past each other. My statement is regarding tartarus vs. regular SB+PF termis
Audustum wrote: Has anyone played the Relic Falchion? Thoughts on taking it in a TAC as the anti-tank source then dedicating the remaining points to other jobs?
I haven't used mine yet, but I've given it a lot of thought.
Ultimately I'm not convinced it's all that good for its price. The firepower is actually not that much better than you would get from the ~4 predator-equivalent vehicles you could have for the same amount of points. The falchion is very tough but probably not tougher than they would be, and it's a hell of a lot of eggs to put in one basket.
Having said that, there are advantages too. As a single model you can put buffs and psychic powers onto a falchion more easily than you could with 4 other units. And of course there's the fact that things that get shot by it end up so very, very dead.
Having faced off against one, that T 9 is a pretty big deal. Its damage output varies with the main gun obviously, but since its backed up with 8 more lascannons it usually killed one or two big things a round in spectacular fashion. The only tricky bit with it is target choice, since you declare what you're shooting at and with what weapons before you roll for the Volcano Cannon. The very first game I saw it in, first turn it rolled double ones, plinking a few points off a Knight while firing its Lascannons at other things. The second turn he rolled boxcars, and plowed through the Knight like it wasn't there, but I think some of the Lascannons were wasted because he declared they would also fire at the Knight.
As we are speaking about terminators, and cataphractii, what are your feelings about them ?
I like my assault termi, but the standard ones are lacklustre, they are lacking in firepower and lacking in durability.
I have great hope for cataphractii (haven't field them yet).
The 4++ and LC instead of the -1 to hit powerfists seem very sweet.
Audustum wrote: Has anyone played the Relic Falchion? Thoughts on taking it in a TAC as the anti-tank source then dedicating the remaining points to other jobs?
I haven't used mine yet, but I've given it a lot of thought.
Ultimately I'm not convinced it's all that good for its price. The firepower is actually not that much better than you would get from the ~4 predator-equivalent vehicles you could have for the same amount of points. The falchion is very tough but probably not tougher than they would be, and it's a hell of a lot of eggs to put in one basket.
Having said that, there are advantages too. As a single model you can put buffs and psychic powers onto a falchion more easily than you could with 4 other units. And of course there's the fact that things that get shot by it end up so very, very dead.
Having faced off against one, that T 9 is a pretty big deal. Its damage output varies with the main gun obviously, but since its backed up with 8 more lascannons it usually killed one or two big things a round in spectacular fashion. The only tricky bit with it is target choice, since you declare what you're shooting at and with what weapons before you roll for the Volcano Cannon. The very first game I saw it in, first turn it rolled double ones, plinking a few points off a Knight while firing its Lascannons at other things. The second turn he rolled boxcars, and plowed through the Knight like it wasn't there, but I think some of the Lascannons were wasted because he declared they would also fire at the Knight.
Yep, that 2d6 roll is going to be massive every turn. I guess it's a good thing to save CPs for.
Good point on the T9. That does make it significantly tougher against nearly any weapon that's likely to be fired at it.
Centurion Devastators; I've run a 3 man squad with grav cannons and missiles. Holy crap is it a lot of fire power. Drop them under a captain or Guilliman aura and laugh as power armored stuff evaporates. I ran an apothecary with them last time to erase wounds. That said....paying like 130 points a guy for T5 W3 2+ save is awful. Dakka dreads are something like twice as survivable for the points and have comparable firepower. Got my fingers crossed that the "Chapter Approved" book later this year drops their points cost by like 20 per model.
What to deliver in a Storm Raven with an Ironclad; This is an issue I've been considering myself. I love my seismic hammer ironclad (my land raider smasher!), and a Storm Raven is an absolute beat down for it's points at the moment. So, what to transport? I've tried 180 points worth of base vanguard vets. 30 attacks isn't bad, with 10 bolt pistols as well. 5 TH/SS terminators is 11 thunder hammer attacks and decent staying power. The issue with both options is....there's better units with shooting for less. I mean, my aggressor squad for 129 points can dump around the same amount of damage out as the vanguard can, but do it at an 18" range, while moving and running, so they don't even need the transport. God help you if they can stand their ground and double tap. 11 TH attacks is either over kill against a vehicle or dread or something, or not nearly enough to cut through larger units of cannon fodder. At the moment, I'm leaning towards not putting anything in the Storm Raven, better to just spend the points elsewhere and not put all my eggs in one basket.
Bikes; Love em. They are a mainstay choice in my armies these days. I run 2 3 man squads, one is double plasma and one is double melta. I also run 3 attack bikes split up as FO slots warrant. They are fast, flexible and have decent survivability for their points. I also like to run a bike captain with a shield eternal and powerfist (would be thunder hammer, but the model has a powerfist). The whole group of 10 bikes generally sticks together to abuse the captain's aura, and will throw down something like 40 bolter shots, 4 plasma, 3 multi-metla and 2 melta gun shots in ideal situations.
Assault termies, of any variant, are really poor. While they got a little cheaper, their movement severely hampers their ability to chase down anything they want to bash. You DS in or get dropped, fail that one charge, and you're sitting like ducks the rest of the game. SftS would help a lot, as long as you get that first turn.
I'd take vanguards with jump packs TH/SS, everytime, over termies.
greatgut wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the best unit to drop out of a stormraven with an ironclad as an in your face assault?
If you are looking for what is purely optimal? I would say Centurions. Everything else gets cheaper delivery options. You could do VV without Jump Packs also, but my preference if I am just sticking something in it because I want a Storm Raven? A good Ranged squad. Sternguard or some Devastators with mid range weapons like Multi-meltas and Grav-cannons. This way you can drop them off a turn earlier than the Ironclad (or even at the same time for some counter-charge defence), and then carry on after. Assault Centurions with Hurricane Bolters and Meltaguns are my favored unit inside either a Land Raider or a Storm Raven though. They are mean and people quickly learn to respect them. I always run them with Pedro, but they can be almost as good with a Chaplain, and I would also use a Lieutenant and an Apothecary with them.
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godardc wrote: As we are speaking about terminators, and cataphractii, what are your feelings about them ?
I like my assault termi, but the standard ones are lacklustre, they are lacking in firepower and lacking in durability.
I have great hope for cataphractii (haven't field them yet).
The 4++ and LC instead of the -1 to hit powerfists seem very sweet.
I use Cataphractii with a Lightning Claw and a Storm Bolter. They are great anti light infantry. They can be great with dual LC also, but against most things I would want to send them against the Storm Bolter is just too valuable.Assault Terminators only ever with TH/SS since the Cataphractii do LC better. Regular Termies are odd. Ultimately the only reason to use them is if you want to deep strike to clear a back objective, and then recall back to defend your own. They can be okay in this way, and I actually prefer the missiles for this because you keep the Storm Bolter.
I need a Captain for my Primaris force, and is it just me or is the Gravis version really overpriced? Now that the normal Primaris Captain can get fist and plasma pistol, he has comparable CC power and slightly different sort, but still comparable pistol-ranged shooting. The only real advantage the Gravis has is T5, but certainly that's not worth 30 points? Either version can be further improved by armour Indomitus, which to me seems like clearly the best relics the Primaris Marines have access to.
Crimson wrote: I need a Captain for my Primaris force, and is it just me or is the Gravis version really overpriced? Now that the normal Primaris Captain can get fist and plasma pistol, he has comparable CC power and slightly different sort, but still comparable pistol-ranged shooting. The only real advantage the Gravis has is T5, but certainly that's not worth 30 points? Either version can be further improved by armour Indomitus, which to me seems like clearly the best relics the Primaris Marines have access to.
Agreed. The problem with the gravis captain is really his master-crafted power sword. It's mathematically worse than his power fist in almost any situation, so it's basically wasted, but he blows 10 points on it. If he was 20 points more than the guy with plasma pistol and fist then you might consider it - especially if he had a decent gun on his other arm. But the sword does absolutely nothing for him.
It's obviously also pretty frustrating that the standard primaris captain doesn't have access to a master-crafted sword.
All of this ends up meaning that the fist and plasma guy is by far the best option. T5 is good, but it's not worth 30 points.
Agreed. The problem with the gravis captain is really his master-crafted power sword. It's mathematically worse than his power fist in almost any situation, so it's basically wasted, but he blows 10 points on it. If he was 20 points more than the guy with plasma pistol and fist then you might consider it - especially if he had a decent gun on his other arm. But the sword does absolutely nothing for him.
It's obviously also pretty frustrating that the standard primaris captain doesn't have access to a master-crafted sword.
Yeah, this is massively annoying. Stupid greedy Gravis Captain hogging all the good swords he doesn't even need!
I will use the sword on 2 wound models. It is useful there. If you are worried about the to wound roll just bring a Libby and use Might of the Ancients. I use the Gravis guy only if I want more of a melee beatstick and because I like the extra attack and wound over a normal captain and the extra toughness can be good too. Mostly I just use a normal captain if I am not springing for a named Chapter Master though. Primaris Characters for me are less useful in general over their normal counterparts.
More useful in a gunline I find; the captain is a bigger beatstick/threat deterrent for whatever eventually makes it to you. Played a game yesterday where my Gravis captain obliterated a Hive Tyrant that made it to me Hellblasters.
I'm planning on using my CP for the Relics of the chapter stratagem and giving my Apothecary in my melee based "command squad" the teeth of terra. Wondered if people thought that was a good idea for extra kills
Captain Garius wrote: I will use the sword on 2 wound models. It is useful there. If you are worried about the to wound roll just bring a Libby and use Might of the Ancients. I use the Gravis guy only if I want more of a melee beatstick and because I like the extra attack and wound over a normal captain and the extra toughness can be good too. Mostly I just use a normal captain if I am not springing for a named Chapter Master though. Primaris Characters for me are less useful in general over their normal counterparts.
I'm not comparing him to a normal captain, I'm comparing him to the limited edition Primaris Captain, you know the one with fist and plasma pistol.
No I got that, I was just saying that in general I don't like the Primaris Captains at all. So when I run one it is the Gravis because of what it brings over the standard Captain. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Power Fists to me are meh. I like stock 2 damage weapons generally, so I actually use the MC Power Sword on the Gravis guy more often. Easier time to hit in my experience is better than an equal chance of doing more or less damage with an easier time to wound.
I don't see any reason to run a Primaris Captain over a normal Captain ever, unless you want to be pure primaris. The ability to take a thunder hammer, or just be cheap with a chainsword (which can be the teeth of terra if it looks like you'll need it in the matchup) is just plain better.
Bremon wrote: You mean the one I wish wasn't so limited. So much nicer than the standard Primaris captain model.
Yes, that. I'm kitbashing a counts-as.
Using the regular Primaris Captain as a base, all you really have to do is cut off the pointing arm and attach the Hellblaster Sergeant Plasma Pistol in its place and attach a Power Fist where the Bolt Rifle attaches on the right arm. Minimal green stuff required. I actually made a much better pose for the regular Primaris Captain using the slung Bolt Rifle and Bolt Pistol arm from the Intercessor kit. It makes that particular kit look significantly better, IMO.
At any rate, I am really looking forward to getting my Anniversary Captain regardless.
I'm a returning player from 4th and I can't for the life of me make a 1500pt Space Marine list that I like. How the heck do you make an SM list without Guilliman that doesn't stink?
What are some of the core formations that you take in most of your lists? Do you even bother with troops? Are Scouts as superior to Tacticals as they seem?
Are there any units that you always take? Either because they're solid or just fun?
How many Lascannons should be taken in 1500 and 2000 point games?
And how in the name of the God Emperor of Mankind do I deal with freaking IG?
I just don't really understand where Space Marines get their teeth at the moment.
I'm a returning player from 4th and I can't for the life of me make a 1500pt Space Marine list that I like. How the heck do you make an SM list without Guilliman that doesn't stink?
What are some of the core formations that you take in most of your lists? Do you even bother with troops? Are Scouts as superior to Tacticals as they seem?
Are there any units that you always take? Either because they're solid or just fun?
How many Lascannons should be taken in 1500 and 2000 point games?
And how in the name of the God Emperor of Mankind do I deal with freaking IG?
I just don't really understand where Space Marines get their teeth at the moment.
I have been doing well with the following "core" elements and units.
1 or more captain and lieutenant in every list - the rerolls are just wonderful. I also frequently use 3CP to make the captain a chapter master for almost as good as Roubute (plus getting to use not UM chapter tactics) goodness.
2-3 units of bolter Scouts - these get you CP, and probably more importantly, stop you from being assaulted out of deepstrike / block first turn charges from getting your shooty stuff.
2 Twin Autocannon Dreads - I really like having some source of 2 damage in my lists, as it reliably wrecks anything that relies on having 2 wounds to give it durability, especially things like bikes, Primaris Marines, and other medium-heavy infantry. It can also be fairly effective against things like terminators in a pinch.
3 units of devastators, and an ancient with the relic flag- I usually only use this if i am playing imperial fists (with their warlord trait) or ravenguard (for their chapter tactic), as I find they don't have the durability needed to stick around otherwise, but it is a powerful shooting core. Mine have missile launchers because i like the flexibility for killing infantry, but las works too. the ancient is wonderful for making your devs a painful target to kill, as you will frequently kill things with the death shots. I definitely upgrade the captain to a chapter master in these lists.
2-3 Las preds - in lists i don't run the devastators, and want to use a lot of vehicles (honestly i typically run these with Roubute, since otherwise i really like RG/IF devs better, but it's not required). I do think it's important to not have these be your only tanks, as they will take fire and die.
2-3 Assault cannon razorbacks - they are wonderful, plain and simple.
1-2 tactical squads in a rhino - I don't love this unit, but it is nice to have a unit hiding in the razorbacks or rhinos to help keep something between your shooty units and the enemy. Having a melee unit shut down your razorbacks or predators is unacceptable, and I find tacticals to be enough to stop or slow down most things with some plasma + a likely doomed assault. Also don't forget to overcharge the plasma if you have a captain aura nearby (and you should), as it is almost always worth risking 1/36 change to lose a guy (who will likely die the next turn anyway) to wound on 3s against T7 and 2s against T4.
1-2 Rhinos - these are quite good for being an annoying monstrous creature that can charge shooting units and tie them up in combat after dumping a load of marines to their doom.
I have used other units (assault marines, bikes, attack bikes, speeders) in order to do things like fill a Brigade, and haven't been overly impressed with them. I don't have any scout bikers, but i think they are probably the best fast attack option for cheap dakka and whatnot.
Some non space marine units i find good to add in are (I get if you don't want to use these / hate the very idea of it / want to fight me for even considering it, but I like them):
Celestine - she is a monster, is very cheap, and usually kills one unit on the first turn, soaks up 1/3 of the enemy firepower, dies, comes back, and does it again the next turn.
Eversor assassin - sort of like a mini Celestine, this guy will gank a infantry unit and then probably die, but it is usually worth the distraction. The other assassins are pretty good as well, but i like this one best.
Inquisitors - these may not be great units, but i like that they are cheap psykers and that they can hide in transports, which helps them get into smite range. The power that makes stuff not overwatch can be slightly useful as well.
Some general SM thoughts:
- You are a shooting army, and that's about it. Most of your movement and fire priority choices involve making it so your shooty units can keep shooting as long as possible. This means using chaff like scouts and tacticals to get in the way of things, and distraction units like celestine to soak up some shooting. The only real SM exceptions to this are Roubute, who is a CC monster, and thunder hammer captains, who are quite good as well and can be used effectively as a counter punch unit, but you want to make sure you have another captain or chapter master around for rerolls as this guy is likely to die at some point.
- If you have marines outside of a transport, they will probably die. For this reason, take your time in getting them out of transports, and don't be afraid to charge them into things as long as you don't think they will get completely wiped out. Tying things up in combat is so good against a lot of armies as it lets you keep shooting.
- Auras are king. Rerolls, the warlord trait that makes 6s to wound +1AP, and the Ancient banners are the boost that marines need to not be terrible. I feel like you should always have at least reroll 1s to hit and 1s to wound on pretty much every unit you expect to do anything useful. This usually means 1-2 captains and 1-2 lieutenants for me.
I usually handle IG by trying to kill the things that can actually hurt me (not the infantry, usually) and then grinding through the infantry as i can. Against not super optimized tournament lists this works most of the time, or at least makes it a close game. The only thing that gives me a really hard time is when there is enough terrain to hide 3-5 pieces of artillery...but I'm not really sure what anyone can do against that.
1499pts
1 regular space marine captain with jump pack, thunder hammer, storm shield
1 regular Lt. with jump pack, hammer, combi plasma
2x5 bolter scouts
1x5 intercessors with grenade launcher and power sword
1x6 plasma inceptors
1x6 bolter inceptors
1x10 hellblasters
The general plan is to use the strike from the shadow stratagem to deploy the hellblasters somewhere in cover with a good view of the field at the start of the battle.
Use the scouts to create some deep strike free space around them.
If an opportunity presents itself, deep strike the jump pack HQ in with them along with the plasma inceptors so hose something with a ton of overcharged plasma.
If necessary the bolter inceptors can be used to blast away bubble wrap or get in front of the plasma inceptors.
Our tables tend to be pretty full of structures that provide both cover and height so I like the mobility of inceptors. The plasma kind are just so expensive though.
I wouldn't spend that much on inceptors in a 1500 pt game and wouldn't play the plasma ones at all. The bolter ones are even questionable at 30 pts/wound. Inceptors mostly get 1-2 turns to shoot and then are dead. The Hellblasters in one squad does nothing two squads of 5 don't except paint a giant target on the squad that says "here is the juiciest squad I have."
So many things can ruin an inceptors day. Smite. Autocannon. An exocrine. Hell, genestealers move almost as fast as they do.
Captain Garius wrote: No I got that, I was just saying that in general I don't like the Primaris Captains at all. So when I run one it is the Gravis because of what it brings over the standard Captain. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Power Fists to me are meh. I like stock 2 damage weapons generally, so I actually use the MC Power Sword on the Gravis guy more often. Easier time to hit in my experience is better than an equal chance of doing more or less damage with an easier time to wound.
I don't think math agrees with you. Against most targets the fist is just better.
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jcd386 wrote: I don't see any reason to run a Primaris Captain over a normal Captain ever, unless you want to be pure primaris. The ability to take a thunder hammer, or just be cheap with a chainsword (which can be the teeth of terra if it looks like you'll need it in the matchup) is just plain better.
Well yeah, Primaris character weapon selection is just pathetic and the inability to take the good relic weapons is infuriating. Still, with an extra attack the fist is almost (but only almost) as good as the hammer and you have an extra wound. I guess it depends on how much you value that wound.
Thanks, this is actually really helpful. I'm curious, why do you put so much value in the Ancients?
Because people ARE going to shoot my devastators, and some of them ARE going to die.
For 63 points and the relic banner, those devastators get to shoot once more on a 3+, meaning you typically get 8 more missile shots for 63 points. It just seems worth it to me, and also makes the Devs slightly more annoying for the enemy to shoot at. And if they don't shoot at them because you have an ancient, that's fine too.
It's also the best 3rd elite slot i've found to go along with the dakka dreads in detachments.
Thanks, this is actually really helpful. I'm curious, why do you put so much value in the Ancients?
Because people ARE going to shoot my devastators, and some of them ARE going to die.
For 63 points and the relic banner, those devastators get to shoot once more on a 3+, meaning you typically get 8 more missile shots for 63 points. It just seems worth it to me, and also makes the Devs slightly more annoying for the enemy to shoot at. And if they don't shoot at them because you have an ancient, that's fine too.
It's also the best 3rd elite slot i've found to go along with the dakka dreads in detachments.
It seems reaaaaally difficult to get 10 or 15 devs into a 6' bubble.
Thanks, this is actually really helpful. I'm curious, why do you put so much value in the Ancients?
Because people ARE going to shoot my devastators, and some of them ARE going to die.
For 63 points and the relic banner, those devastators get to shoot once more on a 3+, meaning you typically get 8 more missile shots for 63 points. It just seems worth it to me, and also makes the Devs slightly more annoying for the enemy to shoot at. And if they don't shoot at them because you have an ancient, that's fine too.
It's also the best 3rd elite slot i've found to go along with the dakka dreads in detachments.
It seems reaaaaally difficult to get 10 or 15 devs into a 6' bubble.
Why? Only the ones carrying heavy weapons matter and now that templates are gone you can just pack them up. Make 2 concentric circles around that ancient for all it matters.
You just need a half millimeter worth of line of sight anyway.
I'm a returning player from 4th and I can't for the life of me make a 1500pt Space Marine list that I like. How the heck do you make an SM list without Guilliman that doesn't stink?
What are some of the core formations that you take in most of your lists? Do you even bother with troops? Are Scouts as superior to Tacticals as they seem?
Are there any units that you always take? Either because they're solid or just fun?
How many Lascannons should be taken in 1500 and 2000 point games?
And how in the name of the God Emperor of Mankind do I deal with freaking IG?
I just don't really understand where Space Marines get their teeth at the moment.
I'm basically going to echo jcd, but I have a few different notes. Let's just assume you're planning on filling a single Battalion, that leaves room for other detachments of allied Imperial stuff like a Conscript bubble + characters if you so desire. My most effective list so far has actually been SMs with 50 Conscripts, a Commander, Commissar, Astropath and a Vindicare and/or Eversor. Anyway, on to the marines.
HQ: As mentioned, if you're not running Rowboat, a Captain (preferably upgraded to a Chapter Master or a named Chapter Master) is basically mandatory. I prefer to take a default with the Primarch's Wrath and Chapter Master upgrade. This way I can take the Storm of Fire warlord trait for maximum dakka. A Lieutenant is also basically mandatory, again cheap and shooty with a Storm Bolter or Combi-Plasma. Melee weapons are optional, but I've honestly not found much need for them.
Troops: We need three for the Battalion, but it is worth considering not even taking a Battalion from SM if you can get CPs from another source such as Rowboat or allied detachments, I've found with our character re-rolls we don't need as many. Assuming you want the command points, three units of Scouts are generally the go-to, to use for Deep Strike protection for the rest of your army by Scouting forward and expanding the no fly zone bubble. Some people take Combi weapons and H. Bolters, others just stay plain. Personal choice here. Tacs are still meh and Ints I've found to just do nothing all game, for the most points out of all of the options. I'd rate Scouts as 1st, Tacs as a distant 2nd followed closely by Ints, as at least Tacs have two specials to do some minor damage while they're being ignored.
Big guns: Now that we've got our basics out of the way, we have a nice big chart to fill with heavy hitters. Twin Assault Cannon Razorbacks are rightly feared as an EXTREMELY efficient source of dakka, with the twin Lascannon loadout also earning a place in my book. Lascannon devastators also show up on occasion, but personally I only take one squad at the most. I'd like to make sure I have a good place to deploy them in cover with good LoS and sometimes you just don't get a good spot for them, this also makes it harder to fit them into the 6" bubble from your Captain and Lieutenant. Next is the other mainstay powerhouse of tournament lists, the mighty Stormraven! The "nerf" that Stormraven based armies received doesn't really apply to just taking one or two and they are still hugely efficient units for laying down the hurt. Lastly, I like to add in a couple Contemptor Dreadnoughts with KACs and Fists, decent shooting and fills the counter charge void in lists without RG. I've also toyed around with Twin Lascannon + Twin Autocannon Venerable dreads for fire support, direct competition with Lascannon Razorbacks. They have CT, hit on 2's and have a TL Autocannon to boot, but I'm not sure it's worth the points yet. Probably meta dependent or if you've used up your transport slots already.
There was a talk about the worth of Apotecharies in other thread, and it was concluded that it is somewhat questionable. Still, a lot of people seem to like Ancients. To me it seems that Apotecharies are clearly superior of the two though. The Ancient might let your guys shoot once when they die, the Apotechary can bring them back to life and they can shoot possibly multiple times and they can heal multiwound models.
Hi guys, rather than start a whole thread for a single bit of info I thought I would just ask here, as you guys are most likely to have the answer!
I'm considering using an Imperial Knight head as part of a conversion project (possibly one of the forgeworld ones, not sure yet), but I need to know the size of the head as I'm worried it might be a bit big.
I just need the height and width really, preferably in mm.
I'd have asked in the Knights tactica, but there doesn't seem to be one! Figured this was the next most likely place :p
So that times 25.4 should give you your dimensions.
Edit: That is for the unmasked head by the way.
On the subject of Ancients and Apothecaries, Ancients work when the model dies and can effect a whole unit. The Apothecary needs some of the unit to survive until the next turn and can only save one model. In an edition where things die so fast, I'd take the ancient. Granted, I'm not a huge fan of either, as I get most of my killing power from vehicles.
Agreed. The problem with the gravis captain is really his master-crafted power sword. It's mathematically worse than his power fist in almost any situation, so it's basically wasted, but he blows 10 points on it. If he was 20 points more than the guy with plasma pistol and fist then you might consider it - especially if he had a decent gun on his other arm. But the sword does absolutely nothing for him.
It's obviously also pretty frustrating that the standard primaris captain doesn't have access to a master-crafted sword.
Yeah, this is massively annoying. Stupid greedy Gravis Captain hogging all the good swords he doesn't even need!
The model is very cool, I enjoyed painting it, BUT:
I always take my good old Captain on Bike I built during early days of 7th, with Storm Shield, Thurnder Hammer and the mandatory twin bolter, he is still 1pts lower than the Gravis Captain but have much better movement distance, 3++ instead of 4++, same number of wounds same toughness, only 1 less attack. What a good deal Shame that model is real good.
Crimson wrote: There was a talk about the worth of Apotecharies in other thread, and it was concluded that it is somewhat questionable. Still, a lot of people seem to like Ancients. To me it seems that Apotecharies are clearly superior of the two though. The Ancient might let your guys shoot once when they die, the Apotechary can bring them back to life and they can shoot possibly multiple times and they can heal multiwound models.
I's say this only applies if you are using centurions, as IMO nothing else is actually worth spending 55 points to attempt to bring back to life. The combo of cents, apothecary, and ancient seems okay, though.
Perth wrote: A quick measure of mine came up with:
3/4" tall
1/2" wide
1/2" deep
So that times 25.4 should give you your dimensions.
Edit: That is for the unmasked head by the way.
On the subject of Ancients and Apothecaries, Ancients work when the model dies and can effect a whole unit. The Apothecary needs some of the unit to survive until the next turn and can only save one model. In an edition where things die so fast, I'd take the ancient. Granted, I'm not a huge fan of either, as I get most of my killing power from vehicles.
Wattup party peeps! Just wanted to get critique on my current list. I really tried to listen to some of the most recent posts in this list about units that do well. The concept here is a really strong fire core with cap/lt bubble and then a large deepstrike group with Shrike, VV & lt. I was thinking of sticking the Sternguard in the raven or sneaking them in via CP where they will be needed the most in turn 1/2.
Sternguard Veteran Squad
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant
Vanguard Veteran Squad: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer
Vanguard Veteran Squad: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer
Radikus wrote: Wattup party peeps! Just wanted to get critique on my current list. I really tried to listen to some of the most recent posts in this list about units that do well. The concept here is a really strong fire core with cap/lt bubble and then a large deepstrike group with Shrike, VV & lt. I was thinking of sticking the Sternguard in the raven or sneaking them in via CP where they will be needed the most in turn 1/2.
Swap out the VV Bolt Pistols for more Chainswords. Otherwise that looks pretty good.
I've used an apothecary in small games to good effect; having a Primaris force that turtles for the most part, making use of re-rolls from a Capt and Lt and having an apothecary to revive expensive Hellblasters and heal the Capt. has worked out well. Just last game an exocrine out of synapse was forced towards game end to shoot exclusively at my Gravis Capt with Santic Halo while other units moved to objectives free and easy, while the Apothecary behind the Capt continuously healed him. Gravis Captain has been an MVP for me in a few games, that damn power sword is such a waste though.
Radikus wrote: Wattup party peeps! Just wanted to get critique on my current list. I really tried to listen to some of the most recent posts in this list about units that do well. The concept here is a really strong fire core with cap/lt bubble and then a large deepstrike group with Shrike, VV & lt. I was thinking of sticking the Sternguard in the raven or sneaking them in via CP where they will be needed the most in turn 1/2.
I'd look strongly at finding the points to upgrade the regular Dreadnoughts to Venerables, hitting on 2's is quite nice, especially if you're running Shrike up front as then you can't upgrade your Captain to a Master and you're stuck with only rerolling 1s.
If you're taking Tacs, they've gotta take some weapons, they're hands down the worst troop to leave barebones. The CC Lieutenant could probably use a better weapon as well.
I think you're spreading yourself a little thin, you might be better served by dropping a Dread or 5 Vanguard and sprinkling in a few upgrades. I'd also be a little concerned that all of your Lascannons are in one fairly fragile squad, going from H. Bolters to Multi-Meltas on the Stormraven might be worth it depending on your meta and how much you think you might need them.
Also, on the subject of Vanguard equipment, I actually lean the other way, I prefer dual pistols over dual chainswords with the exception of one guy to throw grenades. Lets you clear a little bubble wrap before a charge or split damage across units that aren't quite close enough to charge.
I agree on the Venerable upgrade. The added accuracy and the ability to ignore wounds just makes them so much better than a standard Dread and the upgrade isn't that expensive. I gotta say, it is quite refreshing that the Angry Washing Machine is so much better than it used to be.
tpogs wrote: Has anyone run many Plasma Devs? How do you rate them?
Not much reason to take them over Hellblasters, IMO. Variable shots and lack of mobility hurts a lot. They do run a little cheaper, so they have that going for them.
Bremon wrote: They can also have some ablative wounds, while every casualty a Hellblaster squad takes directly affects its output.
That's definitely true, but those points spent on ablative wounds could just go toward more Hellblasters. And Hellblasters have their ablative wounds built in. Sure, multi-damage weapons ruin that, but they are still there. Plasma Cannons have good range and one of the guys can be overcharged without risk of blowing up due to the signum. I really wish that the Hellblaster Sergeant could get a Signum, but that would decrease their output, so it is definitely a trade-off.
An exocrine smashed my Hellblasters last game. As soon as my regular opponent gets some autocannons for his death guard it will be a similar story there. The 2W also don't help when a Hellblaster overheats, which happens every game that they survive long enough, even with the captain reroll.
tpogs wrote: Has anyone run many Plasma Devs? How do you rate them?
I feel like the HPC is much overshadowed by tbe Grav Cannon, actually. The random shots hurts the HPC a lot, while the Grav Cannon winds up being better against nearly every type of target. The only issue is range, but the guaranteed 4 shots does plenty to make up for it. You just have to commit to using Devs more aggressively.
In range, the Grav Cannon outpaces the Lascannon against (AV 3+) vehicles, is better against elites than the HPC, and outshoots Heavy Bolters against hordes.
tpogs wrote: Has anyone run many Plasma Devs? How do you rate them?
I feel like the HPC is much overshadowed by tbe Grav Cannon, actually. The random shots hurts the HPC a lot, while the Grav Cannon winds up being better against nearly every type of target. The only issue is range, but the guaranteed 4 shots does plenty to make up for it. You just have to commit to using Devs more aggressively.
In range, the Grav Cannon outpaces the Lascannon against (AV 3+) vehicles, is better against elites than the HPC, and outshoots Heavy Bolters against hordes.
I actually really want to run some but all my Dev kits are older and before the grav shenanigans.
The main thing to remember for using the Plasma Cannon is making sure you use the important part of its stats:
1. You got more range than some other choices
2. Hitting 2/3 wound models if you can overcharge safely.
I want to like Plasma Cannons, but at 21 points I just can't get behind them, only 4 points to get a Lascannon!
Also 2 damage isn't where I like my damage to be, as we generally have better options as SMs for dealing 1 (Assault Cannons and to a lesser extent H. Bolters) or d6 (Lascannons).
For a Primaris Captain, what bolt rifle type should I give him? Giving him an Auto Bolt Rifle and having him run with some Aggressors or Reivers would be good, but so would giving him the Stalker and having him sitting back. I gave him the Power Sword arm, so having him sit back seems a little bit like a waste, but the Auto Bolt Rifle just doesn't do much for me.
The captain's main use is providing rerolls. Don't let his equipment distract you from letting him provide those to whichever unit is going to make the most of it.
Yep. It just doesn't matter at all what gun he has. Personally I'd go with the auto bolt rifle.
I'm going to try out some assault centurions with Pedro with my fists I think. I think I've got a list that probably justifies using an apothecary. He makes sense if there are characters to heal and expensive models to bring back from the dead.
It does need testing though as stuff dies so fast. I could swap him out for a Culexus, which might well be a better plan. I could add him to the vanguard with the reivers, librarian and assault centurions. The centurions ignore cover anyway so they don't need CTs, and I can live without it for my libby and reivers.
This is the 2k list I'm looking at. I've got it down to 6 drops by shoving loads of my guys into transports.
Battalion
Primaris Captain
Power Fist (fist of vengeance)
Plasma Pistol
Primaris Librarian
Force Sword
5 Intercessors
Power Sword
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Power Sword
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Power Sword
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Aggressors
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Primaris Apothecary
Repulsor
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Three Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Storm Raven Gunship
Twin Plasma Cannon
Twin Multi-melta
Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Two Hurricane Bolters
casvalremdeikun wrote: For a Primaris Captain, what bolt rifle type should I give him? Giving him an Auto Bolt Rifle and having him run with some Aggressors or Reivers would be good, but so would giving him the Stalker and having him sitting back. I gave him the Power Sword arm, so having him sit back seems a little bit like a waste, but the Auto Bolt Rifle just doesn't do much for me.
The power sword is not particularly impressive, although for four points you should always still take it (I'm giving them to all my Intercessor sergeants too.) It is more of 'in case I end up in CC' weapon rather than one to specifically seek melee with. The gun depends on the unit(s) your captain is gonna provide rerolls to: are they gonna move? Usually the answer is yes, so auto bolt rifle. Though if you're playing Salamanders, then stalker is solid, with the rerolls it's reliable even if you move.
casvalremdeikun wrote: For a Primaris Captain, what bolt rifle type should I give him? Giving him an Auto Bolt Rifle and having him run with some Aggressors or Reivers would be good, but so would giving him the Stalker and having him sitting back. I gave him the Power Sword arm, so having him sit back seems a little bit like a waste, but the Auto Bolt Rifle just doesn't do much for me.
The power sword is not particularly impressive, although for four points you should always still take it (I'm giving them to all my Intercessor sergeants too.) It is more of 'in case I end up in CC' weapon rather than one to specifically seek melee with. The gun depends on the unit(s) your captain is gonna provide rerolls to: are they gonna move? Usually the answer is yes, so auto bolt rifle. Though if you're playing Salamanders, then stalker is solid, with the rerolls it's reliable even if you move.
Probably rolling with Reivers or Aggressors, so Auto Bolt Rifle it is.
What about lascan/twin plasma guns razorbacks ?
I have two razorbacks (not fielded yet) and one is modelled like this.
I am going to order a lascan twin plasma guns turret from FW for the second one.
godardc wrote: What about lascan/twin plasma guns razorbacks ?
I have two razorbacks (not fielded yet) and one is modelled like this.
I am going to order a lascan twin plasma guns turret from FW for the second one.
Yeah i have about 6 modelled from 5th edition...sadly GW seems to be done with them, as they are out of the codex, and per the index the whole tank dies of you overcharge and roll a 1, which means you probably don't want to overcharge much. If they FAQed it to cause a mortal wound instead, they'd be much better.
All that being said, 4 plasma shots and a Las cannon shot isn't terrible. Mostly they just outshined by the twin assault cannon option, and not wanting to overcharge much is unfortunate.
godardc wrote: What about lascan/twin plasma guns razorbacks ?
I have two razorbacks (not fielded yet) and one is modelled like this.
I am going to order a lascan twin plasma guns turret from FW for the second one.
Yeah i have about 6 modelled from 5th edition...sadly GW seems to be done with them, as they are out of the codex, and per the index the whole tank dies of you overcharge and roll a 1, which means you probably don't want to overcharge much. If they FAQed it to cause a mortal wound instead, they'd be much better.
All that being said, 4 plasma shots and a Las cannon shot isn't terrible. Mostly they just outshined by the twin assault cannon option, and not wanting to overcharge much is unfortunate.
It doesn't matter that they aren't in the codex. You can keep using the index entry.
Plasma guns don't suffer a penalty for moving, which improves their utility a lot. But don't count on being within 12" of your target. If you are, you stand a good chance of getting charged next turn and having your shooting shut down.
Never really was too big on the LasPlas Razorbacks, and I don't think they are that good in 8th. Overcharging is a huge risk and rapid fire range will get you charged. I'd much rather just go twin Lascannons or Assault Cannons.
Twin las and twin assault cannons seem like the only reasonable Razors to me. This is made more annoying by having crusader sprues out of stock and the FW turrets, imo, are ugly. I could maybe see a case for twin heavy flamers. Las/plas is something I'd never take and belongs in the bin next to twin heavy bolters.
godardc wrote: What about lascan/twin plasma guns razorbacks ?
I have two razorbacks (not fielded yet) and one is modelled like this.
I am going to order a lascan twin plasma guns turret from FW for the second one.
Yeah i have about 6 modelled from 5th edition...sadly GW seems to be done with them, as they are out of the codex, and per the index the whole tank dies of you overcharge and roll a 1, which means you probably don't want to overcharge much. If they FAQed it to cause a mortal wound instead, they'd be much better.
All that being said, 4 plasma shots and a Las cannon shot isn't terrible. Mostly they just outshined by the twin assault cannon option, and not wanting to overcharge much is unfortunate.
It doesn't matter that they aren't in the codex. You can keep using the index entry.
Plasma guns don't suffer a penalty for moving, which improves their utility a lot. But don't count on being within 12" of your target. If you are, you stand a good chance of getting charged next turn and having your shooting shut down.
It matters in that i wouldn't expect GW to buff them to fix the overcharge issue. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
would a firebase of missile devs be good with a storm of fire trait warlord?
Yes and no.
Do missile devs benefit from Storm of Fire? Definitely.
Is buffing a single squad of missile devs the best way to use your Warlord? Probably not. I usually try to fit the majority of my list's killing power inside the Captain's bubble if I'm taking Storm of Fire. If all you have is a lone Dev Squad, he might be better suited to a more active role as a beatstick/countercharge unit with a different trait.
Radikus wrote: Wattup party peeps! Just wanted to get critique on my current list.
Trade one VV in each squad for 3 Storm Shields. They'll live a LOT longer.
The Dev squad definitely needs some meat-shields. You don't want to lose a Lascannon on your first failed save.
I've tried Autocannon dreads in 3 or 4 games, and they just don't have the AP to get anything done. If you're going to use a Storm Raven anyway, stick an Ironclad in it (My preference is two arms, chainfist, dual heavy flamers, and an ironclad assault launcher).
If you have points left over, you can run two under-gunned (2-3 weapon) Dev squads. You'll have more slack for meat-shields, plus two Signums and Armorium Cherubs.
An interesting Tactic that I completely stumbled into tonight:
If you're taking a Land Raider Excelsior, Company Veterans can tank shots for it. I was using Salamanders, so my Land Raider Excelsior had the +1 Toughness relic. Throw a couple of Company Veterans on Bikes behind it, and you've got four extra wounds you can tank before the Land Raider starts taking points off its actual statline. (And since Company Vets on bikes don't have a huge footprint, they can hide behind it pretty easily, or pop out to drop 16 Boltgun shots at close range.)
godardc wrote: What about lascan/twin plasma guns razorbacks ?
I have two razorbacks (not fielded yet) and one is modelled like this.
I am going to order a lascan twin plasma guns turret from FW for the second one.
Yeah i have about 6 modelled from 5th edition...sadly GW seems to be done with them, as they are out of the codex, and per the index the whole tank dies of you overcharge and roll a 1, which means you probably don't want to overcharge much. If they FAQed it to cause a mortal wound instead, they'd be much better.
All that being said, 4 plasma shots and a Las cannon shot isn't terrible. Mostly they just outshined by the twin assault cannon option, and not wanting to overcharge much is unfortunate.
It doesn't matter that they aren't in the codex. You can keep using the index entry.
Plasma guns don't suffer a penalty for moving, which improves their utility a lot. But don't count on being within 12" of your target. If you are, you stand a good chance of getting charged next turn and having your shooting shut down.
It matters in that i wouldn't expect GW to buff them to fix the overcharge issue. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Oh, then yes I see what you mean. Same goes for the Primaris Rhino, and a few other things. It's odd how some of the really big plasma weapons just cause a mortal wound if they overheat, but a plasma gun overheating can make a tank explode.
would a firebase of missile devs be good with a storm of fire trait warlord?
A friend of mine has an iron hands 30k army that he used for 40k at an event recently. He had his 3 auto/las predators sit by a cataphractii captain with storm of fire, and use the kill shot stratagem whenever they can. The combination of +1 to wound, doing an extra wound, and getting an extra AP on a 5+ to wound, meant that they were very killy indeed.
Compared to that, missile devs would be ok, but nothing special. I don't really think there's much that recommends them to have storm of fire than anything else. If not combining it with predators I'd probably send the warlord with something that shot a lot, like aggressors.
I'm looking to optimize an Ultramarines list that I typically run, and the major thing I'm looking in to is dropping my 3, 5-man Tac Squads for Scouts. It's the logical, cheaper route to deal with the problem that my Tacticals handle.
I run primarily a gun-line, centered around Guilliman, though I'm likely going to be replacing him because I like actually having people to play against more than I like using him; and the Tactical squads in my list are there to eat charges, and extend the 9" No-Deep-Strike bubble for my Army.
So, obviously, Scouts will do that role even better than Tacticals.
How are people generally loading out their Scouts when in a role such as that, for area denial and general annoyance? I'm leaning towards Camo Cloaks as their only upgrade, just taking Bolt Guns.
Camo cloaks are never worth it if you ask me, they're too expensive. Especially for what you're using them for.
I think in general they should be ran naked with Bolters, start the game in position to deny deep strike, then run off onto objectives or clip the outskirts of Rowboat's bubble and add some minor anti-infantry fire if objectives won't matter.
Thadin wrote: I'm looking to optimize an Ultramarines list that I typically run, and the major thing I'm looking in to is dropping my 3, 5-man Tac Squads for Scouts. It's the logical, cheaper route to deal with the problem that my Tacticals handle.
I run primarily a gun-line, centered around Guilliman, though I'm likely going to be replacing him because I like actually having people to play against more than I like using him; and the Tactical squads in my list are there to eat charges, and extend the 9" No-Deep-Strike bubble for my Army.
So, obviously, Scouts will do that role even better than Tacticals.
How are people generally loading out their Scouts when in a role such as that, for area denial and general annoyance? I'm leaning towards Camo Cloaks as their only upgrade, just taking Bolt Guns.
That's because Tactical Marines are garbage, and anyone telling you otherwise has no clue about what's going on in the game.
However if you just want straight Bolters you're not taking advantage of Scouts. Assault Centurions give you more Bolters or Sternguard will. Use Scouts for the Shotguns and Rifles or even CCW (assuming you want to go a melee route).
Don't bother with Camo Cloaks though because they're stupidly expensive. They cost more than a Marine at that point!
That's because Tactical Marines are garbage, and anyone telling you otherwise has no clue about what's going on in the game.
However if you just want straight Bolters you're not taking advantage of Scouts. Assault Centurions give you more Bolters or Sternguard will. Use Scouts for the Shotguns and Rifles or even CCW (assuming you want to go a melee route).
Don't bother with Camo Cloaks though because they're stupidly expensive. They cost more than a Marine at that point!
Oh, I'm well aware that Tacticals are less than ideal, to put it modestly. It's just that, currently, my Space Marine army isn't terribly vast or varied.
Looking at the numbers closely, I have to agree on the camo cloaks now. 13 pts for 2+ armor in cover, vs 14 pts for 2+ armor in cover. Though, Scouts do make up for it by being able to deploy in to cover, and further up the board, but I digress. 15 Scout Snipers will be a boon to my army, replacing the 15 Tactical Marines I take. Infiltrate deploying to be flexible and possibly deny deep strikes from a much better position, vs footslogging. And with the loadout on the Tacticals I take, the 3 squads of Scouts will be 75 Points cheaper than 3 squads of Tacticals, and fulfil their intended role much better. With the added benefit of harassing enemy characters.
General opinion of the various Hellblaster options? I'm quite in love with the 10 man squad I like to run, but I tend to only use the Rapid Fire version. Is the increased cost of the Heavy Plasma Incinerator worth it? Is the mobility and slight increased cost of the Assault variant good enough for them being weaker against vehicles typically?
I feel a squad of 10 with the Heavy Variant in the back line, supported by a Captain or something, protected from melee and deep strikes by the scouts and other scary elements of the army would be fairly strong. Heavy Incinerators overcharging are shorter range Lascannons, with better AP, and typically worse damage, but you get a load of them in a squad.
You don't need variety like that, because even fluff wise a "variety" army looks bad. Tactical Marines are garbage crunch-wise and looks wise. I use my Tacticals as Sternguard because of that reason.
Radikus wrote: Wattup party peeps! Just wanted to get critique on my current list.
Trade one VV in each squad for 3 Storm Shields. They'll live a LOT longer.
The Dev squad definitely needs some meat-shields. You don't want to lose a Lascannon on your first failed save.
I've tried Autocannon dreads in 3 or 4 games, and they just don't have the AP to get anything done. If you're going to use a Storm Raven anyway, stick an Ironclad in it (My preference is two arms, chainfist, dual heavy flamers, and an ironclad assault launcher).
If you have points left over, you can run two under-gunned (2-3 weapon) Dev squads. You'll have more slack for meat-shields, plus two Signums and Armorium Cherubs.
Autocannons are a specific niche now. You either go after 2 wound models, 3 wound models you don't want to waste an overcharge Plasma shot on, or light vehicles. It isn't a bad niche, but it's still specific.
Waaaghpower wrote: An interesting Tactic that I completely stumbled into tonight:
If you're taking a Land Raider Excelsior, Company Veterans can tank shots for it. I was using Salamanders, so my Land Raider Excelsior had the +1 Toughness relic. Throw a couple of Company Veterans on Bikes behind it, and you've got four extra wounds you can tank before the Land Raider starts taking points off its actual statline. (And since Company Vets on bikes don't have a huge footprint, they can hide behind it pretty easily, or pop out to drop 16 Boltgun shots at close range.)
Company Veterans on Bikes can only take wounds from Biker Characters. In addition, each wound you distribute gives a mortal wound to the Company Vets, so a single lascannon or melta shot can wipe out a couple of them out.
If autocannons did 3 damage or had better AP I might take them, as it is it's just easier to make them fail two saves from an assault cannon, range doesn't seem to be an issue and our AssCan platforms are so strong right now.
Perth wrote: If autocannons did 3 damage or had better AP I might take them, as it is it's just easier to make them fail two saves from an assault cannon, range doesn't seem to be an issue and our AssCan platforms are so strong right now.
I'm expecting an Razorback nerf with Chapter Approved to be honest.
Waaaghpower wrote: An interesting Tactic that I completely stumbled into tonight:
If you're taking a Land Raider Excelsior, Company Veterans can tank shots for it. I was using Salamanders, so my Land Raider Excelsior had the +1 Toughness relic. Throw a couple of Company Veterans on Bikes behind it, and you've got four extra wounds you can tank before the Land Raider starts taking points off its actual statline. (And since Company Vets on bikes don't have a huge footprint, they can hide behind it pretty easily, or pop out to drop 16 Boltgun shots at close range.)
Company Veterans on Bikes can only take wounds from Biker Characters. In addition, each wound you distribute gives a mortal wound to the Company Vets, so a single lascannon or melta shot can wipe out a couple of them out.
I missed that, but still:
Consider two 2-man Company Veteran squads. Throw on Storm Bolters.
You're spending 18pts a pop on extra wounds for a Land Raider, plus you get a decent amount of firepower from each. It's useful for the extra hint of durability on the first turn to keep from getting popped right away.
As to the Apothecaries and Ancients I generally run both. Cheap characters for a Vanguard that get me another CP and they combine very well with multi-wound models. I usually run at least one squad of either Hellblasters or Centurions, but if I don't I skip both of those characters.
The Plasma Cannon Devs are pretty lackluster generally. I do like putting a single Plasma Cannon in my Dev suads because the Signum makes them safely able to Supercharge, but past that I leave them.
Missile Devs I think are good in small point games, but anything at 2k or larger, even at 1500 I would rather do 2 squads, 1 with Lascannons and the other with Heavy Bolters. Now I have run lists with 3 Dev squads, and in that I did Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, and Missile Launchers respectively... it usually performs well but I learned to split the weapons up in each to keep the opponent from being able to neuter the ones that will be most damaging to them.
I've run 3 squads of 4 missiles and it works fairly well. RG tactics makes them fairly survivable, and the ancient, 3CP Chapter Master, and lieutenant with storm of fire help them pack a punch.
I am considering starting a Space Marine army simply because I think dreadnoughts and predators look cool.
My question is what are some good loadouts for each? Obviously overall list composition will influence what you should take, but I am just looking for general ideas. What are some dreadnought builds you enjoy running be they ironclad, venerable, or otherwise? Same with predators. Are there any loadouts that are just bad or overpriced that I should shy away from?
Lastly(and more specifically for dreadnoughts), which kits would I need to get the loadouts you suggest if all the necessary weaponry is not all in one box? Thank you!
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: I am considering starting a Space Marine army simply because I think dreadnoughts and predators look cool.
My question is what are some good loadouts for each? Obviously overall list composition will influence what you should take, but I am just looking for general ideas. What are some dreadnought builds you enjoy running be they ironclad, venerable, or otherwise? Same with predators. Are there any loadouts that are just bad or overpriced that I should shy away from?
Lastly(and more specifically for dreadnoughts), which kits would I need to get the loadouts you suggest if all the necessary weaponry is not all in one box? Thank you!
Predators should be Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons. Decent amount of shots and totally hits bigger targets with a decent amount of power.
Only Dreads I like are Relic Contemptors as they don't lose movement as they lose wounds, which is super important if you're marching up the field. I've done the stock Twin Heavy Bolter with a Chainfist and had decent luck. Deredeos and Leviathans are awesome in their own way.
Next Dread loadout is the Dread with two Twin Autocannons. That's 8 shots that have good range and a specific purpose.
Lastly Ironclads are pretty good dropped out of a pod.
For those parts, FW has the bitz that aren't in the boxes as far as I know. At the very least I know for a fact they have the Washing Machine's Autocannons on their website.
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: I am considering starting a Space Marine army simply because I think dreadnoughts and predators look cool.
My question is what are some good loadouts for each? Obviously overall list composition will influence what you should take, but I am just looking for general ideas. What are some dreadnought builds you enjoy running be they ironclad, venerable, or otherwise? Same with predators. Are there any loadouts that are just bad or overpriced that I should shy away from?
Lastly(and more specifically for dreadnoughts), which kits would I need to get the loadouts you suggest if all the necessary weaponry is not all in one box? Thank you!
Auto/las or Full LC for the pred. They are not hard to magnetize.
(Talking about GW dreads only, the FW ones add a whole other can of worms that I have little experience with)
Dreads have done OK for me. I think they all have their place.
The basic dread kit comes with an AsC, TLLC, Fist, ML The Ven dread comes with AsC, PC, TLLC, Fist
Ironclad comes with all his options.
Plastic contemptor comes with the KAsC and a MM.
Contemptors might degrade with damage, but they start so good you don’t really feel it till the end. Probably the best of the codex ones. The AsC is mean.
I think the rest all serve fairly well. Might not be top efficient, but they are fun and can get the job done.
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
Perth wrote: You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
I prefer the Lascannons as well, but feel the need to point out that the Autocannons are one of our few sources of Damage 3 from ranged weapons. If you're trying to kill 3w models, your average wounds matter less than the number of shots that get through saves - A lascannon will kill a 3w model 2/3rds of the time, an autocannon will kill a 3w model 100% of the time.
Plus, against Daemons, anyone with a good Invuln, or anyone with a bad save, volume of fire beats out AP.
Unrelated, but: Has anyone had good luck with the Salamanders Warlord Trait? While comboing it with the Relic for S5/T5 on a character (Or S5/T6 on a bike,) seems novel, it doesn't seem nearly as good to me as most of the generic traits, especially if you're bringing a Thammer or PFist.
Perth wrote: You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
Perth wrote: You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
I prefer the Lascannons as well, but feel the need to point out that the Autocannons are one of our few sources of Damage 3 from ranged weapons. If you're trying to kill 3w models, your average wounds matter less than the number of shots that get through saves - A lascannon will kill a 3w model 2/3rds of the time, an autocannon will kill a 3w model 100% of the time.
Plus, against Daemons, anyone with a good Invuln, or anyone with a bad save, volume of fire beats out AP.
Unrelated, but: Has anyone had good luck with the Salamanders Warlord Trait? While comboing it with the Relic for S5/T5 on a character (Or S5/T6 on a bike,) seems novel, it doesn't seem nearly as good to me as most of the generic traits, especially if you're bringing a Thammer or PFist.
Honestly I don't think the toughness boost matters too much. It isn't bad but I don't feel need it a lot, whereas I get much more mileage out of the other relics.
I've found one good use for the T9 relic:
Throw it on the Land Raider Excelsior.
Since the LRE can't hide behind infantry, it's more vulnerable in many ways to being sniped out or blown up early. Boosting it to T9 means that about 99% of non- FW Ranged Weapons that might be used for anti tank are wounding on 4s and 5s, instead of 3s and 4s.
Perth wrote: You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
Perth wrote: You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
That doesn't look correct.
4 × 2/3 × 2/3 × 1/2 = .889 dead marines.
2 × 2/3 × 5/6 × 5/6 = .926 dead marines.
... Why are you firing Lascannons into Tactical Marines?
Perth wrote: You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
I prefer the Lascannons as well, but feel the need to point out that the Autocannons are one of our few sources of Damage 3 from ranged weapons. If you're trying to kill 3w models, your average wounds matter less than the number of shots that get through saves - A lascannon will kill a 3w model 2/3rds of the time, an autocannon will kill a 3w model 100% of the time.
Plus, against Daemons, anyone with a good Invuln, or anyone with a bad save, volume of fire beats out AP.
My list runs 3 Preds with the Auto/las sponson loadout and they put in SO.MUCH.work.
The Kill Shot stratagem lets their Autocannons wound pretty much any vehicle on 3s and bumps their dmg to a flat 4 which is nuts.
If your opponent fails two 4 up armour saves all of a sudden their Storm Raven lost 8 wounds and you still have Lascannons to fire
They're way more versatile, I definitely think they are better than the all Las loadout
Perth wrote: You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
I prefer the Lascannons as well, but feel the need to point out that the Autocannons are one of our few sources of Damage 3 from ranged weapons. If you're trying to kill 3w models, your average wounds matter less than the number of shots that get through saves - A lascannon will kill a 3w model 2/3rds of the time, an autocannon will kill a 3w model 100% of the time.
Plus, against Daemons, anyone with a good Invuln, or anyone with a bad save, volume of fire beats out AP.
My list runs 3 Preds with the Auto/las sponson loadout and they put in SO.MUCH.work.
The Kill Shot stratagem lets their Autocannons wound pretty much any vehicle on 3s and bumps their dmg to a flat 4 which is nuts.
If your opponent fails two 4 up armour saves all of a sudden their Storm Raven lost 8 wounds and you still have Lascannons to fire
They're way more versatile, I definitely think they are better than the all Las loadout
Consider this, though: If you have rerolls on 1s, Lascannons get a much larger benefit than Autocannons.
(Also: A Stormraven isn't likely to fail both 4+ saves. With Killshot and no rerolls against a hovering Stormraven, four Autocannon shots do 3.9 wounds, 2 Lascannon shots do 4.1 wounds. Add in rerolls on 1s, Autocannons go to 4.1, Lascannons go to 4.7.)
Autocannons will never be better against heavy tanks. What they excel at is killing T5/6 units that either have low armor or an invuln similar to their armor save, and against 3W models.
I totally get that, and I definitely think MathHammer has a place to figure out optimal units and load outs on paper etc etc but what I'm saying is the versatility of the platform (autocannon turret + 2 lascannon sponsons) is better than the 4 lascannons.
Look how close those numbers are and those are averages.
While lascannons can swing higher, they can also whiff which hurts while the autocannon is a consistent source of damage.
I can shoot my autocannon at your infantry and split the 2 lascannons without feeling like I've "wasted" firepower. Or I can pump everything into a vehicle.
While the averages on paper look okay, there will be games where your opponent fails three 4+ armour saves or makes a double 6+ on your las.
It's less about the averages on paper for me and more about options on the table
Perth wrote: You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.
That doesn't look correct.
4 × 2/3 × 2/3 × 1/2 = .889 dead marines.
2 × 2/3 × 5/6 × 5/6 = .926 dead marines.
... Why are you firing Lascannons into Tactical Marines?
You don't usually, that just happened to be the profile where Lascannons came closest to the Autocannon. Although on the topic of "wasting" the Lascannons, it just shows that anything tougher than a Scout bar daemons or Storm Shields the Lascannon is better.
Basically I don't think there's any target that "wastes" a Lascannon that doesn't also waste an Autocannon. Even on the odd units like Magnus that the AC pulls ahead, it's not by enough to justify the swap imo.
As for the guaranteed damage of the Autocannon, that bothers me a lot less with command rerolls than it used to. Especially because we don't really need to use them to hit or wound as often with our character buffs.
For what it's worth after all this, mine are modeled with Autocannons, and they'll stat that way because I just think it looks better.
Thedecay wrote: I totally get that, and I definitely think MathHammer has a place to figure out optimal units and load outs on paper etc etc but what I'm saying is the versatility of the platform (autocannon turret + 2 lascannon sponsons) is better than the 4 lascannons.
Look how close those numbers are and those are averages.
While lascannons can swing higher, they can also whiff which hurts while the autocannon is a consistent source of damage.
I can shoot my autocannon at your infantry and split the 2 lascannons without feeling like I've "wasted" firepower. Or I can pump everything into a vehicle.
While the averages on paper look okay, there will be games where your opponent fails three 4+ armour saves or makes a double 6+ on your las.
It's less about the averages on paper for me and more about options on the table
That's true, ish, but it's equally likely for you to get double 1s when you roll your d3s to determine number of shots. Also, passing four 4+ saves is more common than passing two 6+ saves.
I'm not denying that the Autocannon has good versatility, but considering the random number of shots I don't buy the 'reliability' argument.
Generally I take Preds purely for tank hunting and use Plasma, Rifleman Dreads, or Melee to kill heavy infantry, which is why I don't take the Autocannons often.
Shifting gears to Dreadnoughts for a bit my two favorites are the Contemptor with a KAC for a hybrid build, and a Venerable Dread with TL Lascannon and either ML or TLAC for pure shooting.
Out of the two my favorite is the Contemptor, I usually run two as counter charge or aggressive units and they've rarely let me down. Usually my opponents can handle one, but the second always seems to get through to smash things at S16.
The Venerable does well also, but it's just not as flashy and has to compete with Razorbacks and Stormravens for the fire support role, so it obviously has very steep competition.
I have been running 2 regular twin autocannon dreads in most of my lists, and as long as i have access to a re-roll to hit aura from roboute or a 3CP chapter master, they do really well and i don't miss the 2+ from not being a ven dread, and is a bit cheaper..
jcd386 wrote: I have been running 2 regular twin autocannon dreads in most of my lists, and as long as i have access to a re-roll to hit aura from roboute or a 3CP chapter master, they do really well and i don't miss the 2+ from not being a ven dread, and is a bit cheaper..
I looked through the Space Marines codex, and I am a bit confused. First, is a twin autocannon the same thing as an assault cannon or twin assault cannon? I cannot find an entry for any autocannon. Second, if it is an assault cannon how do you equip two of them? It says you replace your assault cannon with something else from the dreadnought heavy weapons list rather than just adding to it. I am new to this and confused, so if anyone can shed some light on this situation for me I would greatly appreciate it.
jcd386 wrote: I have been running 2 regular twin autocannon dreads in most of my lists, and as long as i have access to a re-roll to hit aura from roboute or a 3CP chapter master, they do really well and i don't miss the 2+ from not being a ven dread, and is a bit cheaper..
I looked through the Space Marines codex, and I am a bit confused. First, is a twin autocannon the same thing as an assault cannon or twin assault cannon? I cannot find an entry for any autocannon. Second, if it is an assault cannon how do you equip two of them? It says you replace your assault cannon with something else from the dreadnought heavy weapons list rather than just adding to it. I am new to this and confused, so if anyone can shed some light on this situation for me I would greatly appreciate it.
Sadly, GW is not offering great support for old models/kits/builds. It's honestly kind of crummy, especially since many things that would have gotten price cuts in the Codex got left out in the cold in the Index, making those choices effectively obselete. (Marneus Calgar in Artificer Armor, for example, is 35pts *more expensive* than Terminator Armor, despite being drastically less durable and only getting 1" of movement in exchange.)
Twin Autocannons are only accessible through Index: Imperium 1, but can be put on either or both arms.
jcd386 wrote: I have been running 2 regular twin autocannon dreads in most of my lists, and as long as i have access to a re-roll to hit aura from roboute or a 3CP chapter master, they do really well and i don't miss the 2+ from not being a ven dread, and is a bit cheaper..
I looked through the Space Marines codex, and I am a bit confused. First, is a twin autocannon the same thing as an assault cannon or twin assault cannon? I cannot find an entry for any autocannon. Second, if it is an assault cannon how do you equip two of them? It says you replace your assault cannon with something else from the dreadnought heavy weapons list rather than just adding to it. I am new to this and confused, so if anyone can shed some light on this situation for me I would greatly appreciate it.
Sadly, GW is not offering great support for old models/kits/builds. It's honestly kind of crummy, especially since many things that would have gotten price cuts in the Codex got left out in the cold in the Index, making those choices effectively obselete. (Marneus Calgar in Artificer Armor, for example, is 35pts *more expensive* than Terminator Armor, despite being drastically less durable and only getting 1" of movement in exchange.)
Twin Autocannons are only accessible through Index: Imperium 1, but can be put on either or both arms.
This is the sad truth, new players aren't even given the full rules.
Only old vet know, now.
For the Cata Captain I think he needs a Thunder Hammer for sure, although a Relic Blade is almost as good if you like the sword look more. You lose out vs vehicles, but he's going to be lucky to catch infantry, let alone anything that has wheels.
For the ranged weapon I think it's worth going for a combi-plas or Melta. It increases his threat range and he's going to get at least one shot off when he Deep Strikes. Just be careful on when you overcharge if you go Plas.
just like every single normal captain in any mark armor.
Yeah, because the cata armor gives a 4++ and the iron halo gives a 4++ so instead of it being redundant they say that they work together to give the captain a 3++.
just like every single normal captain in any mark armor.
Yeah, because the cata armor gives a 4++ and the iron halo gives a 4++ so instead of it being redundant they say that they work together to give the captain a 3++.
Links sorry this is the first im hearing of this.
also as to what to take on a cap, personally bias towards fists or thunder hammers because they are cool, but you cant go wrong with a relic blade.
Hi, looking to start up a mostly primaris based army. Would you guys be so kind to tell me what are the most effective primaris army lists? Is it hellblasters all the way? Would you run them with the heavy plasmas? Cheers!
Sluggaloo wrote: Hi, looking to start up a mostly primaris based army. Would you guys be so kind to tell me what are the most effective primaris army lists? Is it hellblasters all the way? Would you run them with the heavy plasmas? Cheers!
Spam Hellblasters and Aggressors if you are using "just" Primaris.
For Hellblasters, I've never use other plasma version than the basic rapid fire one. It is the best "all rounder" weapon.
For "heavy plasma" version for the Hellblasters, as I don't go "all" Primaris Marine army, I never take them because Lascannon Devastator done their job much better.
Sluggaloo wrote: Hi, looking to start up a mostly primaris based army. Would you guys be so kind to tell me what are the most effective primaris army lists? Is it hellblasters all the way? Would you run them with the heavy plasmas? Cheers!
Do you include units that have 'Primaris' in the name? Because a Rhino Primaris with Hellblasters nearby can be ridiculously potent, especially if you happen to have a Captain and Lieutenant on standby. Hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, and even if you roll more 1s after re-rolls you can't Get Hot.
Ultimately, Primaris have a problem with lacking any great Melee units (They've got a couple *decent* harassment choices, but nothing truly dedicated) and with lacking a lot of flexibility. You've also got no way to put down massed firepower, at least nothing compared to what regular Vanilla Marines can put down. If you come up against true hordes, you're going to really struggle to put them down no matter what you take.
Thank you both for your input! When do you choose a Rhino Primaris vs a Repulsor? And what is your go-to loadout for the captain? Do ancients see any use? Cheers
Sluggaloo wrote: Thank you both for your input! When do you choose a Rhino Primaris vs a Repulsor? And what is your go-to loadout for the captain? Do ancients see any use? Cheers
A Rhino Primaris (Also known as the 'Command Rhino') is basically a gunboat. It can technically hold 6 non-primaris Marines inside it, but you don't take it for that, you take it for the Twin Plasmagun, the Orbital Bombardment, and the trio of buffs it offers. (You can either get a +1 To Hit on a nearby unit, including itself, you can recover 1 wound on a friendly vehicle, or you can give +1 Ld to all nearby units. The +1 To Hit is easily the best buff on offer, by an incredible margin. Don't even consider using the others unless, like, the +1 Wound would heal you enough to move up a damage tier and give your tank a +1 to hit anyways.) You take the Rhino to buff units and offer shooting potency, you take the Repulsor as a transport.
There isn't really a 'Go-to' loadout for the Captain, though, because the Captain had two options for gear - He can take an alright (though not stunning) gun and an optional Power Sword, or he can take a decent close combat weapon with slightly crappier shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I generally find that Ancients aren't really worth it unless you cram just a huge ton of units near them. Consider that, for the price of a Primaris Ancient, you could just buy two more Hellblasters. That means two more shots a turn than you would be getting.
Consider the following examples:
You have 15 Hellblasters within 6" of an Ancient. (This is really generous, since cramming them in like that will be really difficult.)
Turn 1, you get 15 shots. Then, your opponent being savvy, they shoot at your Hellblasters and kill 5 of them. You get another 2.5 shots.
Turn 2, you get 10 more shots. Your opponent kills 5 more, you get another 2.5 shots.
Turn 3, you get 5 shots, plus one final 2.5 as your opponent polishes off the Hellblasters.
That's a total of 37.5 shots, which I'll round to 38.
Now consider this: You have 17 Hellblasters.
Turn one, you get 17 shots. Your opponent kills 5.
Now you get 12 shots. Your opponent kills 5.
You get 7 shots. Your opponent kills 5.
You get 2 shots. Your opponent polishes you off.
That's a total of... 38 shots.
(I'm actually surprised that it worked out that perfectly, I picked a random number as the cutoff and figured I could tweak it as needed to get really close.)
You can take the Relic banner, but then you're using up your very limited Relics in order to increase the effectiveness of the buff. (Incidentally, making the roll a 3+ instead of a 4+ changes your Cost/Damage ratio to 10 models - 10 models with an Ancient will give you the same damage as 12 models without.)
So, the question is - How tight do you want to cram your gunline?
I see, thanks again for the help. As an ork player I'm quite overwhelmed at all these choices SM have. I have two dark Imperium sets worth of Primaris marines which is why I'm trying to stock just to the Primaris marines. I'll see how I do
jcd386 wrote: I have been running 2 regular twin autocannon dreads in most of my lists, and as long as i have access to a re-roll to hit aura from roboute or a 3CP chapter master, they do really well and i don't miss the 2+ from not being a ven dread, and is a bit cheaper..
I looked through the Space Marines codex, and I am a bit confused. First, is a twin autocannon the same thing as an assault cannon or twin assault cannon? I cannot find an entry for any autocannon. Second, if it is an assault cannon how do you equip two of them? It says you replace your assault cannon with something else from the dreadnought heavy weapons list rather than just adding to it. I am new to this and confused, so if anyone can shed some light on this situation for me I would greatly appreciate it.
See if you can pick up the Index. There are options that are allowable to field that didn't transfer to the Codex. Twin-Autocannon Dreadnoughts being one of those options.
Twin AC dread is the best ranged dread I feel, so it's a shame it's not in the book but not surprising when the Ven kit is more focused on customizing aesthetics than weapon loadout and the old dread box has nearly nothing for options.
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: So, index options not covered in the codex are still legal? I was unsure if the codex release basically voided the index.
It's not voided. You use the latest version of the rules and points cost, but index options are still allowed. So it's about as confusing as it could be.
So for example a techmarine can still have a conversion beamer. You use the index rules and cost for the gun but the codex rules and costs for the techmarine and his power axe.
For dreadnoughts there are also forgeworld options. The FW index contains a mortis dreadnought, which can have 2x2 autocannons. But it costs 5 points more than a normal dreadnought for some reason, so there's no good reason to do this for a rifle dread. It's a ok option if you want quad lascannons though.
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: So, index options not covered in the codex are still legal? I was unsure if the codex release basically voided the index.
It's not voided. You use the latest version of the rules and points cost, but index options are still allowed. So it's about as confusing as it could be.
So for example a techmarine can still have a conversion beamer. You use the index rules and cost for the gun but the codex rules and costs for the techmarine and his power axe.
For dreadnoughts there are also forgeworld options. The FW index contains a mortis dreadnought, which can have 2x2 autocannons. But it costs 5 points more than a normal dreadnought for some reason, so there's no good reason to do this for a rifle dread. It's a ok option if you want quad lascannons though.
Didn't the Mortis have an AA ability or was that removed? No books in front of me at work!
Seeing aggressors brought up again; a few months in have any of you actually used them to good effect? A friend was asking me why I don't use them, and honestly they just seem incredibly fragile to me. Maybe they would have a defensive role in a gunline list, but they seem ridiculously fragile. I feel I would buy them, assemble them, agonizing over bolts vs flame, spend time painting them and then I would put them to good use against each of my regular opponents once; maybe get a surprise flurry of shots or hilarious overwatch in, and that would be it. Every game after that their threat level would be recognized, and they would be obliterated easily, just like my inceptors.
Bremon wrote: Seeing aggressors brought up again; a few months in have any of you actually used them to good effect? A friend was asking me why I don't use them, and honestly they just seem incredibly fragile to me. Maybe they would have a defensive role in a gunline list, but they seem ridiculously fragile. I feel I would buy them, assemble them, agonizing over bolts vs flame, spend time painting them and then I would put them to good use against each of my regular opponents once; maybe get a surprise flurry of shots or hilarious overwatch in, and that would be it. Every game after that their threat level would be recognized, and they would be obliterated easily, just like my inceptors.
I have done ok with them as imperial fists, never got to use the double shot though as the short range makes it hard to keep things in range.
and its one of the only sources of punch town we have (for primarus only)
I definitely see where you're coming from. I like the idea of flamers more than the execution and I'd likely have to use the bolt gauntlets just to have a more effective threat range. The problem with the dakka is a TLAC is a tougher nut to crack, and has longer range, higher strength dakka. That, and 7 power fist attacks don't seem incredibly effective when you can take terminators instead.
Bremon wrote: I definitely see where you're coming from. I like the idea of flamers more than the execution and I'd likely have to use the bolt gauntlets just to have a more effective threat range. The problem with the dakka is a TLAC is a tougher nut to crack, and has longer range, higher strength dakka. That, and 7 power fist attacks don't seem incredibly effective when you can take terminators instead.
Dunno terminators would be like 220 something for a unit of 5
vs 130 for a bolter aggressor, cheaper for the flamer ones. less punch more gun for cheaper. but then you are losing out on deep strike which is big.
3 aggressors can be removed from the table with very little effort. Flamers and bolters are the same points aren't they? My point was aggressors aren't very reliable as a CC squad because 7 punches won't get them very far; terminators are more suited to using x2 strength weaponry in combat and living to use them again in the next phase.
I suppose I could proxy them and put them in cover somewhere on an objective with as little LOS from enemies as possible. The flame overwatch seems so heinous and tempting but the dakka does seem much more versatile; I think I'll try them out.
Bremon wrote: 3 aggressors can be removed from the table with very little effort. Flamers and bolters are the same points aren't they? My point was aggressors aren't very reliable as a CC squad because 7 punches won't get them very far; terminators are more suited to using x2 strength weaponry in combat and living to use them again in the next phase.
I suppose I could proxy them and put them in cover somewhere on an objective with as little LOS from enemies as possible. The flame overwatch seems so heinous and tempting but the dakka does seem much more versatile; I think I'll try them out.
Flamers are cheaper. base flame storm is cheaper than bolt storm and the bolter ones have to take a frag storm launcher as well.
lack of invul does hurt them however they are T5 vs 4 instead of the 2+ armor.
it puts them out of most standard anti infantry shot but will still get boned by heavy infantry weapons.
Is the Spartan Tank worth fielding in any roles? Coming in a few shy of 500 points, it seems like an awkward cross between shoot-y and assault-y. Maybe would just be better to field two Lascannon Predators and an Assault Razorback or something...
Bremon wrote: 3 aggressors can be removed from the table with very little effort. Flamers and bolters are the same points aren't they? My point was aggressors aren't very reliable as a CC squad because 7 punches won't get them very far; terminators are more suited to using x2 strength weaponry in combat and living to use them again in the next phase.
I suppose I could proxy them and put them in cover somewhere on an objective with as little LOS from enemies as possible. The flame overwatch seems so heinous and tempting but the dakka does seem much more versatile; I think I'll try them out.
Flamers are cheaper. base flame storm is cheaper than bolt storm and the bolter ones have to take a frag storm launcher as well.
lack of invul does hurt them however they are T5 vs 4 instead of the 2+ armor.
it puts them out of most standard anti infantry shot but will still get boned by heavy infantry weapons.
Am I missing something here? Just checked my codex. Auto boltstorm - 14, launchers - 4, flamestorm - 18. Both options are same price and outside of some devious overwatch or maybe UM fallback and shoot the bolters seem far more viable.
Bremon wrote: 3 aggressors can be removed from the table with very little effort. Flamers and bolters are the same points aren't they? My point was aggressors aren't very reliable as a CC squad because 7 punches won't get them very far; terminators are more suited to using x2 strength weaponry in combat and living to use them again in the next phase.
I suppose I could proxy them and put them in cover somewhere on an objective with as little LOS from enemies as possible. The flame overwatch seems so heinous and tempting but the dakka does seem much more versatile; I think I'll try them out.
Flamers are cheaper. base flame storm is cheaper than bolt storm and the bolter ones have to take a frag storm launcher as well.
lack of invul does hurt them however they are T5 vs 4 instead of the 2+ armor.
it puts them out of most standard anti infantry shot but will still get boned by heavy infantry weapons.
You're mistaken. The flamer and bolter variants cost the same.
Bremon wrote: 3 aggressors can be removed from the table with very little effort. Flamers and bolters are the same points aren't they? My point was aggressors aren't very reliable as a CC squad because 7 punches won't get them very far; terminators are more suited to using x2 strength weaponry in combat and living to use them again in the next phase.
I suppose I could proxy them and put them in cover somewhere on an objective with as little LOS from enemies as possible. The flame overwatch seems so heinous and tempting but the dakka does seem much more versatile; I think I'll try them out.
Flamers are cheaper. base flame storm is cheaper than bolt storm and the bolter ones have to take a frag storm launcher as well.
lack of invul does hurt them however they are T5 vs 4 instead of the 2+ armor.
it puts them out of most standard anti infantry shot but will still get boned by heavy infantry weapons.
Am I missing something here? Just checked my codex. Auto boltstorm - 14, launchers - 4, flamestorm - 18. Both options are same price and outside of some devious overwatch or maybe UM fallback and shoot the bolters seem far more viable.
No worries, but with that in mind are there significant scenarios in your mind where flamers have a more noticeable effect on the game, over the course of the game, than auto boltstorm? In my mind, I can see the flamer being a bit of a psychologist threat where you can deny some tablespace to the enemy, but with the bolters having a longer range I don't think it would be tough to imagine that an opponent only has to make the mistake of being double tapped once and the bolter option could maybe have a larger area of denial, or just draw enough attention to have them wiped off the board.
Bremon wrote: No worries, but with that in mind are there significant scenarios in your mind where flamers have a more noticeable effect on the game, over the course of the game, than auto boltstorm? In my mind, I can see the flamer being a bit of a psychologist threat where you can deny some tablespace to the enemy, but with the bolters having a longer range I don't think it would be tough to imagine that an opponent only has to make the mistake of being double tapped once and the bolter option could maybe have a larger area of denial, or just draw enough attention to have them wiped off the board.
Pretty much setting up an overwatch zone, or as an anti clux. god i hate that sob.
Yeah, the overwatch zone seems incredibly appealing, but I'm running a small gunline at this point against tyranids and chaos, I have fairly poor mobility at the moment so deploying Aggressors away from the gunline near a more remote objective with little LOS from big bads could be ideal. To distract 200+ pts of bugs away from my big guns and be able to roast them would be ideal. Flamers in the main gunline would be more reliable though, bug charges outside of 8" would decimate the aggressors, but if there were intercessors to accept the charge at the main gunline instead that could work well. Sorry for the stream of consciousness here but you have the gears in my head spinning now lol.
Flamers will get you 7 hits on average. With 9.5 shots, the bolt versions do almost as well with 6.33 hits - but they do it at 18" instead of 8".
I can conceivably see a situation where you'd get to double shoot with boltstorm gauntlets. You might have a second line of aggressors, for example, behind a skirmish line of intercessors. Even then it's really difficult to imagine it working well with the flamers.
The comparison with terminators is an interesting one. Terminators and aggressors cost roughly the same amount, and do the same thing in cc. Terminators are tougher but aggressors are far more shooty.
If aggressors have a place in lists it's gunning down guard blobs. If you can get a squad of ravenguard aggressors infiltrated within range for turn 1 they will be able to do some significant damage. They will be pretty hard to kill as well if they're outside of 12" of most enemies.
The flamers, as far as my theoryhammer goes, rely on a unit accepting the charge, then falling back, leaving aggressors standing still to double tap their lighters. The flamestorm version seems to need to hide behind LOS blocking terrain, or a tank, protecting stuff like devastators. The boltstorm version I could place in ruins somewhere and with 18" range could theoretically see them doing something. I like the point Mandragola makes about RG tactics, as that, combined with some cover would force enemy units to commit to close combat or ignore the aggressors, and potentially an objective.
Another thought is the boltstorm version could be left in a gunline with space for enemies to deep strike behind the line to attempt to bait an auspex scan double tap out of them.
On another note, I feel the dichotomy between the horde clearing anti infantry firepower and the anti-armour focus of the power fists really does them a disservice. If I can double tap and kill 20+ gaunts I don't think power fists are the ideal method to try to clean the rest up. I'd hazard a guess the rule of cool is responsible for that as the guns being mounted another way maybe wouldn't be as aesthetically pleasing but I think GEQ-clearing CQC focus would help them fit a better niche beyond "mini dread that isn't dead" or "centurions baby cousins".
I like how Aggressors look and might buy them next. I'm playing Raven Guard so I'll most likely Strike from the Shadows them.
Assuming I have the first turn and the enemy has both a tank (razorback, venom, MC, you get the idea) and loads of infantry, would you rather not move them and obliterate the infantry or lose half the fire power and have a sure charge? Maybe you'd do something else. I'm all ears.
7 power fist attacks aren't going to blow up much. 3-4 wounds on a Predator. Average of 57 bolter shots using the double tap is going to clear over 20 GEQ on average. A dozen genestealers, which might otherwise quickly make it up the board to rip faces. The dakka is where their strength is, the fists are just an expensive bonus. More math, the double tap will clear about 6 marines or 3 terminators. Combat would do almost the same as one volley, combat is better against terminators, but if you don't move you can double tap overwatch if your opponent tries to clear you out with combat. Plus, if you kill them with shooting and they don't engage in close combat you may get to take advantage of the raven guard chapter tactic.
Bremon wrote: 7 power fist attacks aren't going to blow up much. 3-4 wounds on a Predator. Average of 57 bolter shots using the double tap is going to clear over 20 GEQ on average. A dozen genestealers, which might otherwise quickly make it up the board to rip faces. The dakka is where their strength is, the fists are just an expensive bonus. More math, the double tap will clear about 6 marines or 3 terminators. Combat would do almost the same as one volley, combat is better against terminators, but if you don't move you can double tap overwatch if your opponent tries to clear you out with combat. Plus, if you kill them with shooting and they don't engage in close combat you may get to take advantage of the raven guard chapter tactic.
Only 1.5 terminators, as they have 2 wounds.
It's also 16.9 GEQ from 57 shots - not over 20. Still a whole bunch of them though. Flak armour is pretty relevant against bolters. Against orks you kill 15.8. You get to 21.1 if the target is T3 with a 6+ save.
I agree with the above poster who says it's odd that aggressors are armed for shooting hordes and bashing elites in cc. I guess you can look at this as versatility rather than weakness, if you want. They are also pretty well set up to shoot an infantry screen away from a tank and then charge it.
In terms of cost, aggressors aren't actually too bad I think. They are way cheaper than inceptors - which are at the extreme end of the glass cannon spectrum. Aggressors in cover are going to be really difficult to remove with small arms - especially with RGCTs. If plasma deep strikes near them they are great for auspex scans.
The key to keeping them alive is probably to give your opponent more pressing targets for plasma and heavy weapons. You should probably really focus down enemy plasma guys (like always, I guess).
I really don't see the point of flamers on Aggressors. The only time they're meaningfully better than the bolts is if you get charged, and I'm not so sure that there are that many enemies that are ling up to charge your power fist toting übermarines to begin with.
Then again, the Aggressors seem superfluous in any case; the lack of bolter shots is usually not an issue in marine lists, not even pure primaris lists. If they had a melta option then they'd at least give some sorely lacking anti-tank capability to the pure primaris lists.
Aggressors seem to fill the anti horde role well. but as I've mentioned earlier, I'd most likely use the Raven Guard stratagem to deep strike them. And actually, most of my hard hitting forces will come via deep strike, thanks to Lias Issodon. Mostly Sternguards armed with combi-plasmas, storm bolters, special issue bolters or even maybe some multi-meltas (each squad can have up to 2 heavy weapons).
I don't have much ingame experience yet, cause I'm still building my army. But I was thinking about some tough match ups and it seems, that in most cases the most effective tactic to counter me is bubble wrapping valuable units with cheap infantry. That way I'm not in rapid range and deal half of my potential damage to those hidden targets. Or waste plasma shots on inefficient targets
Taking that into account, what are some good long range anti horde units that seem to fill that need? The plan is to delay the deepstriking units and use that extra time to kill as many infantry models as possible. I'm goint to have on board 3 Ven Dreads with either dual twin autocannons or twin autocannon/twin lascannon. In addition to that, a captain/lieutenant or a techmarine. That's nowhere near an effective anti horde shooting but I'm going to field those Dreads anyway, cause right now I'm basing my army on Start Collecting boxes and don't have much of a different choice. I might buy 1 more unit. Did you have any success with anything that would meet my needs?
EDIT: Redemptor Dread with Onslaught guns or Stormtalon with twin assault cannon/twin heavy bolter look sexy.
The main counter to deepstriking assault units is indeed cheap infantry bubble wrapping the good stuff. And as long as they are far enough away from the things they are protecting, it doesn't really matter if you can get close with RG SftS, because you are already too far away.
SM scouts are very good at creating this distance, and conscripts are so numerous that it's likely you wont be able to kill enough of them in a single turn of shooting to charge through to things behind them.
In my experience, the good deepstriking units are cheap units that can wait a few turns to drop in at the perfect time without crippling your army by their absence. A few units of Scions, or an Eversor assassin being a decent example.
Big things, like half a blood angel army, cost so much that not dropping them in on the first few turns means the rest of your army is in for a beating, and assault units using the RG or Alpha Legion stratagem are still limited to assaulting the units the enemy deploys at it's edges.
Some units, like chaos Oblits, or devastators dropping in with Lias Issodon, have the range they need to still be able to shoot things, but those units are rare.
For this reason, deepstriking doesn't generally seem to be that great a thing to focus on as an army theme, though it can be good to have a few units to surgically deploy where you need them later in the game.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.
I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.
I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.
It isn't many more points for the extra strength and shots. Why not splurge?
bobsmith7777 wrote: Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.
I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.
It isn't many more points for the extra strength and shots. Why not splurge?
I was looking at taking a storm talon. I've got one with a typhoon. I'm pretty sure it's just a far worse choice than twin lascannons.
The problem with the frag missiles is that they are worse than two lascannon shots against an awful lot of infantry. If the target has good armour on, you'd be better off hitting them with lascannons than frag missiles. And against the few targets that they are actually better against, frag missiles still aren't amazing. You're looking at killing 2-3 guardsmen, guants or orks - which is hardly impressive for a 50 point gun.
The purpose of missile launchers is supposed to be versatility. The reality is that, compared to a lascannon, a missile launcher is worse against the vast majority of targets and only slightly better against a few things - and those things won't necessarily appear anyway.
Anyway storm talons are fine, because assault cannons and lascannons are good. But the typhoon is not optimal. Either get lascannons or save your points and go with heavy bolters.
So what do you do instead to kill hordes? I think the answer might well lie with a combination of models that are able to throw out serious numbers of S4 shooting. Things like the storm raven with its hurricane bolters, and possibly also centurions and aggressors. These guys really can throw out a lot of shots at people. It ought to make quite a dent.
Assault centurions and aggressors both seem like good units to drop in with Lias. The centurions would be out of flamer range, but you could potentially have some fun with meltas. They would be insanely expensive though. The main point is to DS in range to fire hurricane bolters at people.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.
I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.
It isn't many more points for the extra strength and shots. Why not splurge?
I was looking at taking a storm talon. I've got one with a typhoon. I'm pretty sure it's just a far worse choice than twin lascannons.
The problem with the frag missiles is that they are worse than two lascannon shots against an awful lot of infantry. If the target has good armour on, you'd be better off hitting them with lascannons than frag missiles. And against the few targets that they are actually better against, frag missiles still aren't amazing. You're looking at killing 2-3 guardsmen, guants or orks - which is hardly impressive for a 50 point gun.
The purpose of missile launchers is supposed to be versatility. The reality is that, compared to a lascannon, a missile launcher is worse against the vast majority of targets and only slightly better against a few things - and those things won't necessarily appear anyway.
Anyway storm talons are fine, because assault cannons and lascannons are good. But the typhoon is not optimal. Either get lascannons or save your points and go with heavy bolters.
So what do you do instead to kill hordes? I think the answer might well lie with a combination of models that are able to throw out serious numbers of S4 shooting. Things like the storm raven with its hurricane bolters, and possibly also centurions and aggressors. These guys really can throw out a lot of shots at people. It ought to make quite a dent.
Assault centurions and aggressors both seem like good units to drop in with Lias. The centurions would be out of flamer range, but you could potentially have some fun with meltas. They would be insanely expensive though. The main point is to DS in range to fire hurricane bolters at people.
I've found Scout Bikes very good anti horde this edition.
jcd386 wrote: I have been running 2 regular twin autocannon dreads in most of my lists, and as long as i have access to a re-roll to hit aura from roboute or a 3CP chapter master, they do really well and i don't miss the 2+ from not being a ven dread, and is a bit cheaper..
I looked through the Space Marines codex, and I am a bit confused. First, is a twin autocannon the same thing as an assault cannon or twin assault cannon? I cannot find an entry for any autocannon. Second, if it is an assault cannon how do you equip two of them? It says you replace your assault cannon with something else from the dreadnought heavy weapons list rather than just adding to it. I am new to this and confused, so if anyone can shed some light on this situation for me I would greatly appreciate it.
Sadly, GW is not offering great support for old models/kits/builds. It's honestly kind of crummy, especially since many things that would have gotten price cuts in the Codex got left out in the cold in the Index, making those choices effectively obselete. (Marneus Calgar in Artificer Armor, for example, is 35pts *more expensive* than Terminator Armor, despite being drastically less durable and only getting 1" of movement in exchange.)
Twin Autocannons are only accessible through Index: Imperium 1, but can be put on either or both arms.
Where do you get the bit for a twin autocannon since they do not come with any dreadnought kits?
bobsmith7777 wrote: Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.
I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.
It isn't many more points for the extra strength and shots. Why not splurge?
I was looking at taking a storm talon. I've got one with a typhoon. I'm pretty sure it's just a far worse choice than twin lascannons.
The problem with the frag missiles is that they are worse than two lascannon shots against an awful lot of infantry. If the target has good armour on, you'd be better off hitting them with lascannons than frag missiles. And against the few targets that they are actually better against, frag missiles still aren't amazing. You're looking at killing 2-3 guardsmen, guants or orks - which is hardly impressive for a 50 point gun.
The purpose of missile launchers is supposed to be versatility. The reality is that, compared to a lascannon, a missile launcher is worse against the vast majority of targets and only slightly better against a few things - and those things won't necessarily appear anyway.
Anyway storm talons are fine, because assault cannons and lascannons are good. But the typhoon is not optimal. Either get lascannons or save your points and go with heavy bolters.
So what do you do instead to kill hordes? I think the answer might well lie with a combination of models that are able to throw out serious numbers of S4 shooting. Things like the storm raven with its hurricane bolters, and possibly also centurions and aggressors. These guys really can throw out a lot of shots at people. It ought to make quite a dent.
Assault centurions and aggressors both seem like good units to drop in with Lias. The centurions would be out of flamer range, but you could potentially have some fun with meltas. They would be insanely expensive though. The main point is to DS in range to fire hurricane bolters at people.
I agree about Missile Launchers, they feel like they should be in the 20-22 point range, not 25. The Lascannon is just straight up better against so many targets, mostly just due to the Frag Missile just being so underwhelming.
Also Lias can't sneak in Cents or Aggressors, has to be Infantry, but non Terminator, non Centurion, and non Primaris. So basically Devs, Sternguard, or Vanguard if you want to try and roll an 8 for the charge with his aura, actually decent odds with a re-roll.
I was curious, so I did a math:
On average, a Missile Launcher will get a whopping .77 wounds against Orks in cover. A Lascannon will get .55 wounds.
Even if the missile launcher gets the maximum number of possible shots, it only gets 1.33 wounds or so - Barely worth the effort. (This math actually works out the exact same against Guardsmen in cover, btw.)
Just take Lascannons. If you need anti-horde, buy... Something else. Storm Bolters, maybe.
To be fair, I don't think horde units like guardsmen and orks have cover that often, which helps the Frag Missile a little bit, but really not enough to make it worth taking.
Waaaghpower wrote: I was curious, so I did a math:
On average, a Missile Launcher will get a whopping .77 wounds against Orks in cover. A Lascannon will get .55 wounds.
Even if the missile launcher gets the maximum number of possible shots, it only gets 1.33 wounds or so - Barely worth the effort. (This math actually works out the exact same against Guardsmen in cover, btw.)
Just take Lascannons. If you need anti-horde, buy... Something else. Storm Bolters, maybe.
Yeah this is right. There are things you can buy that really do have an awful lot of shots - hurricane bolters are my favourite. Storm bolters and aggressors are also up there. Just buy those things.
Anti-horde equipment is really important. Just don't be tricked into thinking that's what you are getting with a missile launcher.
The other thing is that having a ton of shots is inherently versatile. The 9.5 bolter-like shots that an aggressor fires are good at killing hordes, and also good at killing MEQs, just by shooting them over and over again. They also work well against weird stuff like daemons and harlequins, which can negate powerful shots in various ways. In 40k, spray and pray is a very solid approach.
I think that missile launchers would need to have 2d6 shots to justify their cost. Right now they are (very roughly) equal to a single guy firing a storm bolter.
Waaaghpower wrote: I was curious, so I did a math:
On average, a Missile Launcher will get a whopping .77 wounds against Orks in cover. A Lascannon will get .55 wounds.
Even if the missile launcher gets the maximum number of possible shots, it only gets 1.33 wounds or so - Barely worth the effort. (This math actually works out the exact same against Guardsmen in cover, btw.)
Just take Lascannons. If you need anti-horde, buy... Something else. Storm Bolters, maybe.
Yeah this is right. There are things you can buy that really do have an awful lot of shots - hurricane bolters are my favourite. Storm bolters and aggressors are also up there. Just buy those things.
Anti-horde equipment is really important. Just don't be tricked into thinking that's what you are getting with a missile launcher.
The other thing is that having a ton of shots is inherently versatile. The 9.5 bolter-like shots that an aggressor fires are good at killing hordes, and also good at killing MEQs, just by shooting them over and over again. They also work well against weird stuff like daemons and harlequins, which can negate powerful shots in various ways. In 40k, spray and pray is a very solid approach.
I think that missile launchers would need to have 2d6 shots to justify their cost. Right now they are (very roughly) equal to a single guy firing a storm bolter.
With any ML you're basically paying to not specialize. It hurts for certain units to be Jack-Of-All-Trades, but I don't find the extra strength of the Lascannon ever coming in handy, and it's mostly that extra AP you're after, so the all-comer works mildly better for weapons themselves. Then you have Frag shots.
That's just how I see it anyway. I definitely won't argue against someone not using them, that's for sure.
With any ML you're basically paying to not specialize. It hurts for certain units to be Jack-Of-All-Trades, but I don't find the extra strength of the Lascannon ever coming in handy, and it's mostly that extra AP you're after, so the all-comer works mildly better for weapons themselves. Then you have Frag shots.
That's just how I see it anyway. I definitely won't argue against someone not using them, that's for sure.
I'd be inclined to agree with you, if the 'Frag' half wasn't so bad at killing hordes that it's only ever worth firing if there are literally zero multi-wound enemies in range.
You get more anti-horde shooting by just buying Tactical Marines than you do by firing Missile Launchers. (Not even considering the cost of the model holding the ML.)
The bonus AP on Lascannons will almost always come in handy, and the S9 is situational, but really potent in the situations where it comes up.
).
but have much better movement distance, 3++ instead of 4++, same number of wounds same toughness, only 1 less attack. What a good deal 
