Exocrines... plague crawlers... land raiders... these are all things my two opponents have access to. Missile launchers are a joke for their price, two Tac marines for 1 point more are more appealing than frag missiles to me. Better off sprinkling a mix of autocannons and lascannons into your list then relying on not needing a krak missile one turn and being able to fire off 3.5 bolter shots (on average). I dislike how swingy D6 shots and damage is in general, and wish more things were 2D3 (or 2D6 for frag missiles), but I’d much rather burn a command point on damage than shots fired.
I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.
With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.
It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.
jcd386 wrote: I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.
With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.
It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.
Typically we are looking at averages though instead of max damage.
Another way to look at it is that, for the same price, you give your Lascannon 1 worse AP (the S9 doesn't pop up as an advantage to me, sorry), and you gain a Storm Bolter.
Maybe if Land Raiders become even more common, and we see what broken garbage the Eldar codex brings, Lascannons S9 will be more important. The main selling point though is the AP-3 with that delicious range.
jcd386 wrote: I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.
With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.
It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.
Typically we are looking at averages though instead of max damage.
Another way to look at it is that, for the same price, you give your Lascannon 1 worse AP (the S9 doesn't pop up as an advantage to me, sorry), and you gain a Storm Bolter.
Maybe if Land Raiders become even more common, and we see what broken garbage the Eldar codex brings, Lascannons S9 will be more important. The main selling point though is the AP-3 with that delicious range.
Right, and on average, with the rerolls you shoulld have in an SM army, frag missiles are much better. I wouldn't ever count on the rolling well thing, but you should be aware that not only is the average higher, the potential is higher too. And the thing is, statistically, you will roll well somewhat often. And when you do, it simply pays off more for frag than it does for Las.
jcd386 wrote: I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.
With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.
It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.
Typically we are looking at averages though instead of max damage.
Another way to look at it is that, for the same price, you give your Lascannon 1 worse AP (the S9 doesn't pop up as an advantage to me, sorry), and you gain a Storm Bolter.
Maybe if Land Raiders become even more common, and we see what broken garbage the Eldar codex brings, Lascannons S9 will be more important. The main selling point though is the AP-3 with that delicious range.
Right, and on average, with the rerolls you shoulld have in an SM army, frag missiles are much better. I wouldn't ever count on the rolling well thing, but you should be aware that not only is the average higher, the potential is higher too. And the thing is, statistically, you will roll well somewhat often. And when you do, it simply pays off more for frag than it does for Las.
"Twice as many wounds as Lascannons against one of the weakest hordes in the game, but only when the enemy isn't in cover and your guns are buffed by a named character/a captain and 3 Command Points, a Lieutenant, and a Warlord Trait" is not "Much better".
When we say 'Lascannons get almost as many kills', we aren't saying that as some kind of mark of pride. We're saying that Lascannons are a *terrible* choice for horde killing, and they still come within a reasonable range of what Frag Missiles will get.
Yeah, this argument for frag isn’t convincing. A round 6 stormbolters double tapping also have a chance of killing 24 guardsmen, and the odds of that are notably higher than 4 frag missiles. Frag missiles are flaming garbage; they’re the equivalent of tac marines; a unit that I don’t personally mind but is almost universally reviled on this forum. There are myriad ways to clear chaff with marines, anti-tank is less common. If missile launchers were 20 points they’d have a case, as is I’d take the lascannon every time and spend points on other weapons for clearing trash mobs; for its points a missile launcher is basically always better used shooting krak missiles.
the problem is that you still need the lascannons.
You can't ditch lazcannons for storm bolters. You need both. Missiles act as both, and if you are playing space marines without significant reroll support, you are frankly playing space marines wrong.
jcd386 wrote: I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.
With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.
It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.
Typically we are looking at averages though instead of max damage.
Another way to look at it is that, for the same price, you give your Lascannon 1 worse AP (the S9 doesn't pop up as an advantage to me, sorry), and you gain a Storm Bolter.
Maybe if Land Raiders become even more common, and we see what broken garbage the Eldar codex brings, Lascannons S9 will be more important. The main selling point though is the AP-3 with that delicious range.
Right, and on average, with the rerolls you shoulld have in an SM army, frag missiles are much better. I wouldn't ever count on the rolling well thing, but you should be aware that not only is the average higher, the potential is higher too. And the thing is, statistically, you will roll well somewhat often. And when you do, it simply pays off more for frag than it does for Las.
"Twice as many wounds as Lascannons against one of the weakest hordes in the game, but only when the enemy isn't in cover and your guns are buffed by a named character/a captain and 3 Command Points, a Lieutenant, and a Warlord Trait" is not "Much better".
When we say 'Lascannons get almost as many kills', we aren't saying that as some kind of mark of pride. We're saying that Lascannons are a *terrible* choice for horde killing, and they still come within a reasonable range of what Frag Missiles will get.
Right, I'm not comparing things in a bubble. I'm comparing units the way they would actually be run in a real army. If you're going to bring devs, you're going to bring 3 of them, with the right auras to make them effective. Otherwise there isn't even a question about which dev loadout is better, because you agent going to use them over something like a predator, or some other choice.
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
HQ Captain on bike - PF, SS (Becomes chap master. Storm of fire trait. BT helm relic. Currently has PF because painted, and no points to go to TH)
Captain with JP - TH, SS Emperor's Champion (Goes in Rhino)
Elites
Company Vet x2 - Power sword on sgt (Goes in Rhino)
Company Vet x2 - Power sword on sgt (Goes in Rhino)
Cenobyte servitors x3 (6 pt elite choice FTW)
Fast
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Experience so far is that having the 9" aura with storm of fire makes the bike Chap Master a solid mini-guilleman. I lose 3" and 3 free CP, but I save enough points to go brigade, so I think I end up with a similar number of CP in game. It's been a game changer every time.
Predators and the TH/SS jump captain have been MVPs, every game. The 3 flat damage is so amazing and consistent. Occasionally the Lascannons will erase something or chip armor, but the pred autocannon almost always puts 3-6 wounds on whatever it shoots at.
Asscanbacks are amazing. With the rerolls and storm of fire they just pour out so much hate. Their overwatch is potent too.
HKM are a little pricey but the alpha potential they give you is something you can't really afford to give up. I can't think of a better place for the 36 points, unless there was a bigger overall shifting of the list.
Things I'm not sold on
1) EC vs LT
Not wed to EC and melee squad in Rhino, could swap him out for a primaris LT, though I need to keep the 2x2 vets as they are the cheapest elite choice (aside from the unique cenobyte servitors). They've worked well as a repelling force vs assault armies. Scouts absorb initial charge, EC and a rhino of marines counter charge in my turn and finish off whatever shooting leaves standing. EC is dirt cheap for the melee power he has, but an LT would up my firepower a lot. I could shift some points and do LT with JP and a PF or something, maybe.
2) Plasma squads
Experience has shown plasma squads do very well within range of rerolls. The overcharge with 4+d3 shots can help finish off vehicles or pick up characters in my lines very reliably. Could swap cannon to a heavy bolter, it is statistically very similar for half the cost unless the cannon overcharges. Since I generally am using them when overcharging, seems like I should keep it all plasma to be specialized in that role. Other option is to remove all their weapons, which would save me 49 pts per squad, so 147 for my list. I could get another razorback with that, though the overcharged plasma fills a high S, multi-damage role the assault cannons do not.
3) Whirlwind
The whirlwind is pretty consistent. It's damage output is always less than a pred, but it gives me a tool to fight out of LOS targets. It isn't likely to win a fight against IG artillery, but it can do some damage if it goes first or they whiff. Have considered swapping to a hyperios for anti-air and increased S. For the cost I don't have a lot of other heavy slot choices that I'm in love with. I could take a Hunter, but I'm not a fan of single-shot weapon systems.
Overall
I'm pretty happy with how the army has been playing, just looking for inputs on fine-tuning it.
stratigo wrote: You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.
Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.
Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?
Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.
Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.
Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
/snip.
Wow, a brigade. Cool.
Couple of thoughts:
Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.
You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?
You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.
A slightly silly way to effectively take one less HQ is the rhino primaris. In a razorback army you could potentially take one of them as an HQ, rather than taking a razorback for one of your troops. In effect you get a free HQ - though at the obvious cost of the twin AC on the razorback. The RP's buffs and orbital bombardment are pretty fun though.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
/snip.
Wow, a brigade. Cool.
Couple of thoughts:
Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.
You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?
You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.
Thanks for the input. Not trying to argue, just doing a back and forth.
Scouts are there solely to deny first turn assault via deepstrike. Something intercessors cannot do effectively without forcing me back into a corner and giving up the ability to maneuver. Critical in games now because of heavy LOS blocking terrain. I'd get 1 intercessor for every 2 scouts. I don't think 20 scouts or 10 intercessors firepower is going to really do much damage to anything. Neither is going to live to the end of the game if they're being used as bubble wrap. Intercessors are like 10% more wounds/attacks/shots per point, since you get 2 scouts per intercessor, though the armor is notable. They just lack the footprint I need/want for stopping heavy assault style units.
I've considered the 3rd predator, though not sure where I'd find 80 pts. Kill shot is amazing, and with a brigade I can definitely afford to use it a lot - if I don't lose a predator. I think this is a legit suggestion, but I'm not sure I can adjust the list adequately to fit it, or if it'll actually play out well. I rarely keep my predators within 6" of each other, generally they're each on the opposite side of 9" of my chapter master for better LOS coverage.
3 characters is character heavy? I have 279 pts in my HQ - less than girlyman alone. Why replace the captain over the EC? I'm definitely leaning towards an LT, but it seems like the EC would be the more obvious choice to replace. The EC is better vs chars than TH/SS, but TH/SS decimates walkers, heavy infantry and is perfectly adequate vs chars. He's also very mobile. EC seems very situational, and the LT would be a strong army-wide buff.
A slightly silly way to effectively take one less HQ is the rhino primaris. In a razorback army you could potentially take one of them as an HQ, rather than taking a razorback for one of your troops. In effect you get a free HQ - though at the obvious cost of the twin AC on the razorback. The RP's buffs and orbital bombardment are pretty fun though.
The primaris adds almost nothing to this list, I think. It costs a ton, gives a single unit a very minor buff (3+ reroll to hit is already nearly 90% success) or barely heals a tank. The orbital bombardment might be decent against a vehicle. The plasma guns are not particularly useful when I can't risk overcharging without losing the whole tank.
stratigo wrote: You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.
Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.
Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?
Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.
Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.
Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.
the normal lieutenant is significantly cheaper. Give him chainswords and nothing else and he is his base 60. The primeris lieutenant has to buy gak. Also deploying in a vehicle is useful for limiting drops, and your entire army is mobile.
I think the ultramarine relic, the sanctic halo, is probably the best. I've never had an issue keeping guys within 6 of calgar, but you do has more units than my calgar list usually runs (a strictly casual list verse my G man list).
Salymanders would drastically increase the efficiency of your MSU plasma troops. It's mini guilliman for free. It's the best chapter tactic. Better than even the RG.
Your LT should never be shot at by the by, you have vehicles, he can hide.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
HQ Captain on bike - PF, SS (Becomes chap master. Storm of fire trait. BT helm relic. Currently has PF because painted, and no points to go to TH)
Captain with JP - TH, SS Emperor's Champion (Goes in Rhino)
Elites
Company Vet x2 - Power sword on sgt (Goes in Rhino)
Company Vet x2 - Power sword on sgt (Goes in Rhino)
Cenobyte servitors x3 (6 pt elite choice FTW)
Fast
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Experience so far is that having the 9" aura with storm of fire makes the bike Chap Master a solid mini-guilleman. I lose 3" and 3 free CP, but I save enough points to go brigade, so I think I end up with a similar number of CP in game. It's been a game changer every time.
Predators and the TH/SS jump captain have been MVPs, every game. The 3 flat damage is so amazing and consistent. Occasionally the Lascannons will erase something or chip armor, but the pred autocannon almost always puts 3-6 wounds on whatever it shoots at.
Asscanbacks are amazing. With the rerolls and storm of fire they just pour out so much hate. Their overwatch is potent too.
HKM are a little pricey but the alpha potential they give you is something you can't really afford to give up. I can't think of a better place for the 36 points, unless there was a bigger overall shifting of the list.
Things I'm not sold on
1) EC vs LT
Not wed to EC and melee squad in Rhino, could swap him out for a primaris LT, though I need to keep the 2x2 vets as they are the cheapest elite choice (aside from the unique cenobyte servitors). They've worked well as a repelling force vs assault armies. Scouts absorb initial charge, EC and a rhino of marines counter charge in my turn and finish off whatever shooting leaves standing. EC is dirt cheap for the melee power he has, but an LT would up my firepower a lot. I could shift some points and do LT with JP and a PF or something, maybe.
2) Plasma squads
Experience has shown plasma squads do very well within range of rerolls. The overcharge with 4+d3 shots can help finish off vehicles or pick up characters in my lines very reliably. Could swap cannon to a heavy bolter, it is statistically very similar for half the cost unless the cannon overcharges. Since I generally am using them when overcharging, seems like I should keep it all plasma to be specialized in that role. Other option is to remove all their weapons, which would save me 49 pts per squad, so 147 for my list. I could get another razorback with that, though the overcharged plasma fills a high S, multi-damage role the assault cannons do not.
3) Whirlwind
The whirlwind is pretty consistent. It's damage output is always less than a pred, but it gives me a tool to fight out of LOS targets. It isn't likely to win a fight against IG artillery, but it can do some damage if it goes first or they whiff. Have considered swapping to a hyperios for anti-air and increased S. For the cost I don't have a lot of other heavy slot choices that I'm in love with. I could take a Hunter, but I'm not a fan of single-shot weapon systems.
Overall
I'm pretty happy with how the army has been playing, just looking for inputs on fine-tuning it.
Honestly Plasma Cannons require too much saturation and have too few shots most of the time. Why not spring for the Grav Cannon? It'll overall be 2 shots landing compared to 1, and will gain a wound bonus vs the more important targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I feel we need to start discussing how to deal with Guard. If they got no point adjustments for their regular infantry, they're going to be brutal to face.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
/snip.
Wow, a brigade. Cool.
Couple of thoughts:
Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.
You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?
You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.
Thanks for the input. Not trying to argue, just doing a back and forth.
Scouts are there solely to deny first turn assault via deepstrike. Something intercessors cannot do effectively without forcing me back into a corner and giving up the ability to maneuver. Critical in games now because of heavy LOS blocking terrain. I'd get 1 intercessor for every 2 scouts. I don't think 20 scouts or 10 intercessors firepower is going to really do much damage to anything. Neither is going to live to the end of the game if they're being used as bubble wrap. Intercessors are like 10% more wounds/attacks/shots per point, since you get 2 scouts per intercessor, though the armor is notable. They just lack the footprint I need/want for stopping heavy assault style units.
I've considered the 3rd predator, though not sure where I'd find 80 pts. Kill shot is amazing, and with a brigade I can definitely afford to use it a lot - if I don't lose a predator. I think this is a legit suggestion, but I'm not sure I can adjust the list adequately to fit it, or if it'll actually play out well. I rarely keep my predators within 6" of each other, generally they're each on the opposite side of 9" of my chapter master for better LOS coverage.
3 characters is character heavy? I have 279 pts in my HQ - less than girlyman alone. Why replace the captain over the EC? I'm definitely leaning towards an LT, but it seems like the EC would be the more obvious choice to replace. The EC is better vs chars than TH/SS, but TH/SS decimates walkers, heavy infantry and is perfectly adequate vs chars. He's also very mobile. EC seems very situational, and the LT would be a strong army-wide buff.
Valid points on the scouts as bubble wrap. I use flyers for this and my army is pretty quick, so I don't care about being pushed back. In that case I'd take them in 5-man units though. It strikes me that fielding 3x5 scouts, and potentially losing a whole razorback full of crusaders, might be a good way for you to free up points for that predator.
Having to put all your predators in one place is indeed a problem of the kill shot approach. On the other hand you aren't forced to do it if you don't want to - but it's a nice option to have. Predators are good so having 3 remains a good thing even if you aren't always using kill shot. Meanwhile the whirlwind really does not look very good at all to me.
I have to say, I'm not sold on the idea of using a brigade at 2k - at least as marines. I just run a battalion and I find it's ok. CPs are good, but not good enough to justify spending hundreds of points on units you don't really want. I just threw together a brigade list using intercessors for all the troops and at realised I had far too few big guns. I think you're in the same boat. If I was lined up against you I think I'd look to pop your predators asap (I'd probably go first) and after that you'd probably struggle to get rid of my storm raven, repulsor and xiphon. Please don't take this as one-upmanship - I just find that the best way to analyse a list is to imagine fighting against it.
Instead, I'd take a battalion and a spearhead. Drop your tarantulas and elites - or get some that are actually useful. A couple of contemptors would give you something that could fight in cc (really really well) for example - and they'd even benefit from your CTs. You wouldn't be swimming in CPs but you'd have an ok number still. You'd also unlock access to planes, which you can't really afford to ever bring in a brigade.
Having to sit all the predators together becomes less of a problem if you've got other things with guns as well, of course. If you also had something like a storm raven buzzing around you could have that attack the things the predators couldn't reach.
stratigo wrote: You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.
Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.
Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?
Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.
Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.
Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.
the normal lieutenant is significantly cheaper. Give him chainswords and nothing else and he is his base 60. The primeris lieutenant has to buy gak. Also deploying in a vehicle is useful for limiting drops, and your entire army is mobile.
I think the ultramarine relic, the sanctic halo, is probably the best. I've never had an issue keeping guys within 6 of calgar, but you do has more units than my calgar list usually runs (a strictly casual list verse my G man list).
Salymanders would drastically increase the efficiency of your MSU plasma troops. It's mini guilliman for free. It's the best chapter tactic. Better than even the RG.
Your LT should never be shot at by the by, you have vehicles, he can hide.
14 pts cheaper if I give him no special weapon. That could either give my chapter master a thunderhammer, or I could give the LT a combi, or pistols or something. Good point, I didn't remember the cost of their guns. As for drops, I'm already at 14. I'm not going to finish deploying first. ITC uses first player gets +1 to go first, so it's not crippling to have this many drops.
The halo is definitely legit, but I get 3" ontop of my 6" for not just my full rerolls, but also storm of fire. Agree to disagree, but there's no denying both are strong, I think.
How? I get one reroll to wound on each squad. I already get full rerolls to hit. It's a very minor statistical increase for my army, at the cost of gaining a very large amount of bubble range (The more inches in a bubble, the more area each inch covers. 6" is a 113" bubble, 9" is a 254" bubble. The extra 3" more than doubles effective area) for two strong buffs which affect every unit I run. Nevermind the fact that the RG and BT stratagems are both stronger than sallys. The sally CT relies entirely on MSU infantry squads, which certainly have a place in the current meta. However, in an army which has rerolls widely available (and used), I think it's overrated. UM have the best stuff, all together, as Girlyman is OP, their CT negates a core mechanic of the game, their relic (as you pointed out) is very strong, and their stratagem is decent. I digress, to return to the point, I don't see serious advantage in any CT over BT with my army list aside from UM, and it's a moot point anyways as that's not something I'm changing.
If he's hiding he's not buffing. I can't put him in a vehicle after the shooting phase, so if I'm not buffing with him there's no point to having him. The only counter argument to this is leaving him in a vehicle during deployment, which is a valid advantage for standard LT. I'm reasonably sure I can keep him out of LOS, particularly if I go with the (well) suggested standard LT. Which I think I will, over the EC.
Honestly Plasma Cannons require too much saturation and have too few shots most of the time. Why not spring for the Grav Cannon? It'll overall be 2 shots landing compared to 1, and will gain a wound bonus vs the more important targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I feel we need to start discussing how to deal with Guard. If they got no point adjustments for their regular infantry, they're going to be brutal to face.
Grav cannons are something I've thought about. 7 more points adds up, but, like you said, the higher base shots is very good. Counter argument to this is the average damage. Figuring a 2 for D3 in both the PC shots and the GC damage;
Hitting on a .75 (Because both will have moved, but assuming reroll), and overcharing plasma (As I mentioned, it's the primary manner in which I use them).
Vs T4, 3+
Grav, 3.33
Plas, 2.08
Vs T5, 3+
Grav 2.5
Plas 1.6
Vs T6-7, 3+
Both average 1.66 wounds
Vs T8, 3+
Grav 1.66
Plas 1.24
Against anything 4+ or worse, the Plas is better, every time. Vs 3+, grav averages ~50% more efficiency against (almost) every target, for 33% more cost. Without the (~2% per shot) chance of frying yourself. The number of 4+, multi-wound targets that you will need to be disembarking to kill is pretty limited, basically just some Daemons, Harlequin characters, a handful of Ork/Nids/DE, and Eldar light vehicles? I think you're right and the gravs might be the better choice. The problem is going to be finding the points. Is the efficiency difference worth cutting HKM?
I think we're pretty limited in what we can use to handle guard, beyond our current choices. SR with hurricane bolters, TAC and THB, tarantula spam, razorbacks all have solid shots per cost, but unless commissars are nerfed then we simply lack the tools to eat up a conscript wall, I think. Maybe vets with SB+chainsword, will get 7 S4 attacks each, but that's contingent on getting a reliable charge range.
Post 2017/09/26 16:23:12 Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Traceoftoxin wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Traceoftoxin wrote:
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
/snip.
Wow, a brigade. Cool.
Couple of thoughts:
Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.
You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?
You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.
Thanks for the input. Not trying to argue, just doing a back and forth.
Scouts are there solely to deny first turn assault via deepstrike. Something intercessors cannot do effectively without forcing me back into a corner and giving up the ability to maneuver. Critical in games now because of heavy LOS blocking terrain. I'd get 1 intercessor for every 2 scouts. I don't think 20 scouts or 10 intercessors firepower is going to really do much damage to anything. Neither is going to live to the end of the game if they're being used as bubble wrap. Intercessors are like 10% more wounds/attacks/shots per point, since you get 2 scouts per intercessor, though the armor is notable. They just lack the footprint I need/want for stopping heavy assault style units.
I've considered the 3rd predator, though not sure where I'd find 80 pts. Kill shot is amazing, and with a brigade I can definitely afford to use it a lot - if I don't lose a predator. I think this is a legit suggestion, but I'm not sure I can adjust the list adequately to fit it, or if it'll actually play out well. I rarely keep my predators within 6" of each other, generally they're each on the opposite side of 9" of my chapter master for better LOS coverage.
3 characters is character heavy? I have 279 pts in my HQ - less than girlyman alone. Why replace the captain over the EC? I'm definitely leaning towards an LT, but it seems like the EC would be the more obvious choice to replace. The EC is better vs chars than TH/SS, but TH/SS decimates walkers, heavy infantry and is perfectly adequate vs chars. He's also very mobile. EC seems very situational, and the LT would be a strong army-wide buff.
Valid points on the scouts as bubble wrap. I use flyers for this and my army is pretty quick, so I don't care about being pushed back. In that case I'd take them in 5-man units though. It strikes me that fielding 3x5 scouts, and potentially losing a whole razorback full of crusaders, might be a good way for you to free up points for that predator.
Having to put all your predators in one place is indeed a problem of the kill shot approach. On the other hand you aren't forced to do it if you don't want to - but it's a nice option to have. Predators are good so having 3 remains a good thing even if you aren't always using kill shot. Meanwhile the whirlwind really does not look very good at all to me.
I have to say, I'm not sold on the idea of using a brigade at 2k - at least as marines. I just run a battalion and I find it's ok. CPs are good, but not good enough to justify spending hundreds of points on units you don't really want. I just threw together a brigade list using intercessors for all the troops and at realised I had far too few big guns. I think you're in the same boat. If I was lined up against you I think I'd look to pop your predators asap (I'd probably go first) and after that you'd probably struggle to get rid of my storm raven, repulsor and xiphon. Please don't take this as one-upmanship - I just find that the best way to analyse a list is to imagine fighting against it.
Instead, I'd take a battalion and a spearhead. Drop your tarantulas and elites - or get some that are actually useful. A couple of contemptors would give you something that could fight in cc (really really well) for example - and they'd even benefit from your CTs. You wouldn't be swimming in CPs but you'd have an ok number still. You'd also unlock access to planes, which you can't really afford to ever bring in a brigade.
I could do 3x5, saves me 33 pts, then drop a crusader squad all together and that will give me enough for a pred. I can keep the razorback as a DT for scouts. Good idea.
I think the whirlwind is better than it looks at first glance, but I agree a predator is more likely the stronger choice.
I don't spend hundreds on units I don't want, actually the only units I have I don't want are cenobyte servitors, and they're 6 pts. The tarantulas are very cost efficient, they have not failed to kill their points or more every game. The vets work great as counter-assault units for relatively cheap coming out of the Rhino. I am happy with my heavy and troops and HQ slots, although the EC being changed to an LT seems like a smart change. Even assuming I drop them, they're only a combined 71 points, and the 4 company vets are 84 (92 with the swords). So I have 161 pts of units that you say I should drop. If I wanted something to fight well in CC to replace them I'd take another Jump captain with TH/SS - they're extremely cost efficient and effective, but the battalion allows me to use the 3CP on a chapter master and still have 9 CP. Which is about how many I use in 3 turns, my average game length (after turn 3, the game is generally decided).
Your LT is unlikely to ever see combat, so cheaper is better, period. He's just there for the aura. You don't have to worry about him being shot because he is a character.
You have a lot of points in your characters. Sobe they are mostly just there for rerolls, i typically take mine on foot, start them in a tank, and then disembark and advance in the first turn if my fire base is moving up. To me, the bike and jump pack seem unneeded.
I also wonder if 1 capt and 2 LTs is better than 2 capts, since the 9" might be enough to keep your whole army inside of, and for a lot of weapons rerolling wounds of 1 is better or the same as rerolling hits of 1 if you do happen to be out of range of the CM, but not a LT.
Scouts are great, but I've found 15 to be enough to deny most enemies.
I'd at least think about taking 3 preds instead of 2 and the ww.
Seems good to me other than that.
Oh and yes, grav is the way to go for sure, i think.
I could do 3x5, saves me 33 pts, then drop a crusader squad all together and that will give me enough for a pred. I can keep the razorback as a DT for scouts. Good idea.
I think the whirlwind is better than it looks at first glance, but I agree a predator is more likely the stronger choice.
I don't spend hundreds on units I don't want, actually the only units I have I don't want are cenobyte servitors, and they're 6 pts. The tarantulas are very cost efficient, they have not failed to kill their points or more every game. The vets work great as counter-assault units for relatively cheap coming out of the Rhino. I am happy with my heavy and troops and HQ slots, although the EC being changed to an LT seems like a smart change. Even assuming I drop them, they're only a combined 71 points, and the 4 company vets are 84 (92 with the swords). So I have 161 pts of units that you say I should drop. If I wanted something to fight well in CC to replace them I'd take another Jump captain with TH/SS - they're extremely cost efficient and effective, but the battalion allows me to use the 3CP on a chapter master and still have 9 CP. Which is about how many I use in 3 turns, my average game length (after turn 3, the game is generally decided).
Cool. It sounds like you know your list. Between all of us I think we've made some improvements to it. Dropping the crusader squad but keeping the RB is getting the best of both.
Good luck.
I'm putting a list together for a tournament myself. I'd be interested in comments. My guys are crimson fists. It's 2k, with just a single battalion so 6CPs.
I tried it out last night against GKs in the relic. I won heavily but was helped a lot by seizing the initiative. I realised that I've got nothing that deep strikes, which could be an issue. I'm now thinking about swapping my aggressors for 5 cataphractii with fists, storm bolters and maybe a grenade harness. I could trim a bit off the repulsor to save the points. To be honest I think that would probably be the right call.
Primaris Captain (Warlord)
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist (Upgraded to Fist of Vengeance relic)
Warlord Trait: +1A on charge and reroll charges
Primaris Librarian
Force Sword
Smite
Null Zone
Might of Heroes
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
3 Assault Centurions
Three Hurricane Bolters
Four Flamers
Two Melta Guns
Omniscope
5 Aggressors
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
5 Hellblasters
Plasma Incinerators
Storm Raven Gunship
Twin Plasma Cannon
Twin Multi-melta
Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Two Hurricane Bolters
Xiphon Interceptor
Two Twin Lascannon
Xiphon Missile Battery
Repulsor
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Three Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
jcd386 wrote: Your LT is unlikely to ever see combat, so cheaper is better, period. He's just there for the aura. You don't have to worry about him being shot because he is a character.
You have a lot of points in your characters. Sobe they are mostly just there for rerolls, i typically take mine on foot, start them in a tank, and then disembark and advance in the first turn if my fire base is moving up. To me, the bike and jump pack seem unneeded.
I also wonder if 1 capt and 2 LTs is better than 2 capts, since the 9" might be enough to keep your whole army inside of, and for a lot of weapons rerolling wounds of 1 is better or the same as rerolling hits of 1 if you do happen to be out of range of the CM, but not a LT.
Scouts are great, but I've found 15 to be enough to deny most enemies.
I'd at least think about taking 3 preds instead of 2 and the ww.
Seems good to me other than that.
Oh and yes, grav is the way to go for sure, i think.
I agree on the LT, cheaper is better. I was thinking primaris for the extra wound vs snipers (I face them regularly in my meta), but if I go standard he'll be able to hide behind tanks.
The TH/SS jump captain has been an MVP in every single game of mine. The movement allows him to jump across LOS blocking pieces of terrain, and the flat 3 damage per wound allows him to obliterate anything multi-wound. His aura rarely affects anything but himself, since I either keep him back with the captain as a counter-assault element, or move him up jumping from terrain to terrain before hammering something that needs to be hammered.
The bike is there because the larger base give me a better aura range, the movement means I can get him to cover any area I need to if I'm moving my forces, the T cuts sniper wounds by 16%, the W is obviously nice. I've not played a game where he wasn't in combat, and in several games he's survived the game with 1W remaining.
However, I agree with you on the two LT idea. Maybe swap the TH/SS captain to a LT. I keep the 2+ WS, I give up 1W and 1A. I will likely not have rerolls to hit with him in combat, but instead I can reroll to wound. This is a 15 pt difference. Something definitely to consider.
Taking all this talk into consideration, here's my new idea;
1994 pts (6 to spare)
HQ Captain on bike, PF/SS Captain with JP, TH/SS LT Stormbolter
I could do 3x5, saves me 33 pts, then drop a crusader squad all together and that will give me enough for a pred. I can keep the razorback as a DT for scouts. Good idea.
I think the whirlwind is better than it looks at first glance, but I agree a predator is more likely the stronger choice.
I don't spend hundreds on units I don't want, actually the only units I have I don't want are cenobyte servitors, and they're 6 pts. The tarantulas are very cost efficient, they have not failed to kill their points or more every game. The vets work great as counter-assault units for relatively cheap coming out of the Rhino. I am happy with my heavy and troops and HQ slots, although the EC being changed to an LT seems like a smart change. Even assuming I drop them, they're only a combined 71 points, and the 4 company vets are 84 (92 with the swords). So I have 161 pts of units that you say I should drop. If I wanted something to fight well in CC to replace them I'd take another Jump captain with TH/SS - they're extremely cost efficient and effective, but the battalion allows me to use the 3CP on a chapter master and still have 9 CP. Which is about how many I use in 3 turns, my average game length (after turn 3, the game is generally decided).
Cool. It sounds like you know your list. Between all of us I think we've made some improvements to it. Dropping the crusader squad but keeping the RB is getting the best of both.
Good luck.
I'm putting a list together for a tournament myself. I'd be interested in comments. My guys are crimson fists. It's 2k, with just a single battalion so 6CPs.
I tried it out last night against GKs in the relic. I won heavily but was helped a lot by seizing the initiative. I realised that I've got nothing that deep strikes, which could be an issue. I'm now thinking about swapping my aggressors for 5 cataphractii with fists, storm bolters and maybe a grenade harness. I could trim a bit off the repulsor to save the points. To be honest I think that would probably be the right call.
Primaris Captain (Warlord)
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist (Upgraded to Fist of Vengeance relic)
Warlord Trait: +1A on charge and reroll charges
Primaris Librarian
Force Sword
Smite
Null Zone
Might of Heroes
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
3 Assault Centurions
Three Hurricane Bolters
Four Flamers
Two Melta Guns
Omniscope
5 Aggressors
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
5 Hellblasters
Plasma Incinerators
Storm Raven Gunship
Twin Plasma Cannon
Twin Multi-melta
Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Two Hurricane Bolters
Xiphon Interceptor
Two Twin Lascannon
Xiphon Missile Battery
Repulsor
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Three Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
What are you putting in each transport? Have you had any issues with having 2 big transports with lots of stuff in them? The xiphon seems like a very strong unit, how has its performance been vs ground targets?
Why plas cannon on SR over TAC? I'm pretty sure the TAC averages more wounds against almost every target, though I could be wrong without checking the math. Assuming the MM is for a reliable AT on a mobile platform?
Without the (~2% per shot) chance of frying yourself. The number of 4+, multi-wound targets that you will need to be disembarking to kill is pretty limited, basically just some Daemons, Harlequin characters, a handful of Ork/Nids/DE, and Eldar light vehicles? I think you're right and the gravs might be the better choice. The problem is going to be finding the points. Is the efficiency difference worth cutting HKM?
Remember, by moving and overcharging the PCs, you're sitting at about an 11% chance of frying yourself.
stratigo wrote: You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.
Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.
Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?
Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.
Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.
Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.
the normal lieutenant is significantly cheaper. Give him chainswords and nothing else and he is his base 60. The primeris lieutenant has to buy gak. Also deploying in a vehicle is useful for limiting drops, and your entire army is mobile.
I think the ultramarine relic, the sanctic halo, is probably the best. I've never had an issue keeping guys within 6 of calgar, but you do has more units than my calgar list usually runs (a strictly casual list verse my G man list).
Salymanders would drastically increase the efficiency of your MSU plasma troops. It's mini guilliman for free. It's the best chapter tactic. Better than even the RG.
Your LT should never be shot at by the by, you have vehicles, he can hide.
14 pts cheaper if I give him no special weapon. That could either give my chapter master a thunderhammer, or I could give the LT a combi, or pistols or something. Good point, I didn't remember the cost of their guns. As for drops, I'm already at 14. I'm not going to finish deploying first. ITC uses first player gets +1 to go first, so it's not crippling to have this many drops.
The halo is definitely legit, but I get 3" ontop of my 6" for not just my full rerolls, but also storm of fire. Agree to disagree, but there's no denying both are strong, I think.
How? I get one reroll to wound on each squad. I already get full rerolls to hit. It's a very minor statistical increase for my army, at the cost of gaining a very large amount of bubble range (The more inches in a bubble, the more area each inch covers. 6" is a 113" bubble, 9" is a 254" bubble. The extra 3" more than doubles effective area) for two strong buffs which affect every unit I run. Nevermind the fact that the RG and BT stratagems are both stronger than sallys. The sally CT relies entirely on MSU infantry squads, which certainly have a place in the current meta. However, in an army which has rerolls widely available (and used), I think it's overrated. UM have the best stuff, all together, as Girlyman is OP, their CT negates a core mechanic of the game, their relic (as you pointed out) is very strong, and their stratagem is decent. I digress, to return to the point, I don't see serious advantage in any CT over BT with my army list aside from UM, and it's a moot point anyways as that's not something I'm changing.
If he's hiding he's not buffing. I can't put him in a vehicle after the shooting phase, so if I'm not buffing with him there's no point to having him. The only counter argument to this is leaving him in a vehicle during deployment, which is a valid advantage for standard LT. I'm reasonably sure I can keep him out of LOS, particularly if I go with the (well) suggested standard LT. Which I think I will, over the EC.
I mean you have vehicles, your LT should never be in LoS to snipers. Razorbacks are big enough to hide your foot chars :p
As it stands, black templars don't really give you anything while Sallys net you free rerolls. But it will not change and that is okay
Ultras do have the best characters of course, but that's independent of CT, which o think sallies and raven guard have the better options
Without the (~2% per shot) chance of frying yourself. The number of 4+, multi-wound targets that you will need to be disembarking to kill is pretty limited, basically just some Daemons, Harlequin characters, a handful of Ork/Nids/DE, and Eldar light vehicles? I think you're right and the gravs might be the better choice. The problem is going to be finding the points. Is the efficiency difference worth cutting HKM?
Remember, by moving and overcharging the PCs, you're sitting at about an 11% chance of frying yourself.
Rolling a 1 modifies it to a 0. There is no rule that says you cannot modify a roll to below 1 or over 6 (The previous designer's commentary that said you couldn't modify below a 1 is no longer published, feel free to check here, it has been superseded by the official FAQ). Plasma only triggers on a 1. If it said it triggered on an unmodified roll of 1, then rolling a 2 wouldn't matter. Though rerolling your 2s to hit and getting a 1 is still an option, so it's about an 5% chance to fry yourself with a 4+. A 3 always misses, since "re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied."
Thanks for pointing it out though, I didn't even think about how the -1 to hit modifier affected the plasma, we've all been playing just on natural 1s, rather than modified 1s. The designer commentary not being current is notable, either they changed their minds or forgot, either way we won't know till they update it again.
As it stands, black templars don't really give you anything while Sallys net you free rerolls. But it will not change and that is okay
Ultras do have the best characters of course, but that's independent of CT, which o think sallies and raven guard have the better options
Black templars more than double the effective range of my chapter master and warlord trait aura, they give me a relatively reliable deny from any of my units (75% if I use 2 CP), and they ensure I very rarely fail short/medium (4-7") charges. Salamanders would get me maybe 8 reroll to wounds per game, as I don't get it on vehicles. BT gives me easily dozens of rerolls to hit by having my CM range extended so far. Like I said, I was examining the chapter as a whole, and again, it's irrelevant because my army is painted and that's all there is to it.
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Total: 2000/2000
The Hellblasters and Aggressors can SftS forwards with Shrike and the VVs and the rest form a firebase with the reroll auras.
I'm still not sold on the Scout armament, 20pts in rifles is a lot when I'm avging 1 wound from the unit at best, but I realized I do own 5 painted sniper models and half my bolter/shotguns are unassembled, so maybe I'll give it a try?...For those who saw my prior list revision, I did swap the 5 grav Devs for 7 Hellblasters. I still think the firepower is mostly a wash, but I do like 14W instead of 5W. If I kept the Devs, I thought I'd add 2 HB Tarantulas with the spare 60ish points. That'd give some super cheap DS protection without having to hold Scouts back.
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Total: 2000/2000
The Hellblasters and Aggressors can SftS forwards with Shrike and the VVs and the rest form a firebase with the reroll auras.
I'm still not sold on the Scout armament, 20pts in rifles is a lot when I'm avging 1 wound from the unit at best, but I realized I do own 5 painted sniper models and half my bolter/shotguns are unassembled, so maybe I'll give it a try?...For those who saw my prior list revision, I did swap the 5 grav Devs for 7 Hellblasters. I still think the firepower is mostly a wash, but I do like 14W instead of 5W. If I kept the Devs, I thought I'd add 2 HB Tarantulas with the spare 60ish points. That'd give some super cheap DS protection without having to hold Scouts back.
The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.
The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.
I doubt the sniper rule is going to pay off with only 5 shots, I'm not threatening anything that isn't already near dead, but they were talked up in the RG thread and I didn't have a burning need for those 20pts. I could reshuffle some wargear and get another Hellblaster or Tarantula maybe. Oh, or drop a Hellblaster to get 5 more sniper rifles, but then they aren't as sacrificial bubble wrap now that they're armed.
The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.
I doubt the sniper rule is going to pay off with only 5 shots, I'm not threatening anything that isn't already near dead, but they were talked up in the RG thread and I didn't have a burning need for those 20pts. I could reshuffle some wargear and get another Hellblaster or Tarantula maybe. Oh, or drop a Hellblaster to get 5 more sniper rifles, but then they aren't as sacrificial bubble wrap now that they're armed.
I regularly play against someone who uses 5 pathfinders, and they put out about a mortal wound a turn on chars. Sometimes none, sometimes two. Just having them does make the opponent change their tactics though.
The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.
I doubt the sniper rule is going to pay off with only 5 shots, I'm not threatening anything that isn't already near dead, but they were talked up in the RG thread and I didn't have a burning need for those 20pts. I could reshuffle some wargear and get another Hellblaster or Tarantula maybe. Oh, or drop a Hellblaster to get 5 more sniper rifles, but then they aren't as sacrificial bubble wrap now that they're armed.
I regularly play against someone who uses 5 pathfinders, and they put out about a mortal wound a turn on chars. Sometimes none, sometimes two. Just having them does make the opponent change their tactics though.
I'm not gonna shift my tactics because I might get 2 mortal wounds. I might if I get 4 though.
Without the (~2% per shot) chance of frying yourself. The number of 4+, multi-wound targets that you will need to be disembarking to kill is pretty limited, basically just some Daemons, Harlequin characters, a handful of Ork/Nids/DE, and Eldar light vehicles? I think you're right and the gravs might be the better choice. The problem is going to be finding the points. Is the efficiency difference worth cutting HKM?
Remember, by moving and overcharging the PCs, you're sitting at about an 11% chance of frying yourself.
Rolling a 1 modifies it to a 0. There is no rule that says you cannot modify a roll to below 1 or over 6 (The previous designer's commentary that said you couldn't modify below a 1 is no longer published, feel free to check here, it has been superseded by the official FAQ). Plasma only triggers on a 1. If it said it triggered on an unmodified roll of 1, then rolling a 2 wouldn't matter. Though rerolling your 2s to hit and getting a 1 is still an option, so it's about an 5% chance to fry yourself with a 4+. A 3 always misses, since "re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied."
Thanks for pointing it out though, I didn't even think about how the -1 to hit modifier affected the plasma, we've all been playing just on natural 1s, rather than modified 1s. The designer commentary not being current is notable, either they changed their minds or forgot, either way we won't know till they update it again.
As it stands, black templars don't really give you anything while Sallys net you free rerolls. But it will not change and that is okay
Ultras do have the best characters of course, but that's independent of CT, which o think sallies and raven guard have the better options
Black templars more than double the effective range of my chapter master and warlord trait aura, they give me a relatively reliable deny from any of my units (75% if I use 2 CP), and they ensure I very rarely fail short/medium (4-7") charges. Salamanders would get me maybe 8 reroll to wounds per game, as I don't get it on vehicles. BT gives me easily dozens of rerolls to hit by having my CM range extended so far. Like I said, I was examining the chapter as a whole, and again, it's irrelevant because my army is painted and that's all there is to it.
Seems more likely to me they just have a terrible website than they decided to change how the rules work. They also mentioned as recently as the chaos book previews that negative modifiers make plasma kill you on 1s and 2s, so it's safer to assume it does that it does not imo.
The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.
I doubt the sniper rule is going to pay off with only 5 shots, I'm not threatening anything that isn't already near dead, but they were talked up in the RG thread and I didn't have a burning need for those 20pts. I could reshuffle some wargear and get another Hellblaster or Tarantula maybe. Oh, or drop a Hellblaster to get 5 more sniper rifles, but then they aren't as sacrificial bubble wrap now that they're armed.
I regularly play against someone who uses 5 pathfinders, and they put out about a mortal wound a turn on chars. Sometimes none, sometimes two. Just having them does make the opponent change their tactics though.
I'm not gonna shift my tactics because I might get 2 mortal wounds. I might if I get 4 though.
Sniper Scouts do good, but only in redundancy.
Just having the ability to pick out characters makes people change how they position them. Even though I know 5 pathfinders should never kill a bike captain, I've taken 3 mortal wounds from them in one round. I do my best to minimize their ability to get shots off. That's not saying they're great, or that they're going to kill a character or completely change someone's gameplan, but if you have snipers with LOS down an avenue of approach, your opponent may consider placing their character there. Games are not played with unlimited time, people are forced to make decisions under pressure and sometimes they overestimate or underestimate the danger of situations. I'm not sure it's worth the 20 points, but it is a factor to keep in mind.
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jcd386 wrote: Seems more likely to me they just have a terrible website than they decided to change how the rules work. They also mentioned as recently as the chaos book previews that negative modifiers make plasma kill you on 1s and 2s, so it's safer to assume it does that it does not imo.
Considering there is no written rule saying that's how it works, and GW regularly misplays their own game, I don't think there's a solid argument for that to be RAW. RAI, I agree, but RAW all you have is an article written by someone on the web team.
I'm putting a list together for a tournament myself. I'd be interested in comments. My guys are crimson fists. It's 2k, with just a single battalion so 6CPs.
I tried it out last night against GKs in the relic. I won heavily but was helped a lot by seizing the initiative. I realised that I've got nothing that deep strikes, which could be an issue. I'm now thinking about swapping my aggressors for 5 cataphractii with fists, storm bolters and maybe a grenade harness. I could trim a bit off the repulsor to save the points. To be honest I think that would probably be the right call.
Primaris Captain (Warlord)
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist (Upgraded to Fist of Vengeance relic)
Warlord Trait: +1A on charge and reroll charges
Primaris Librarian
Force Sword
Smite
Null Zone
Might of Heroes
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
3 Assault Centurions
Three Hurricane Bolters
Four Flamers
Two Melta Guns
Omniscope
5 Aggressors
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
5 Hellblasters
Plasma Incinerators
Storm Raven Gunship
Twin Plasma Cannon
Twin Multi-melta
Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Two Hurricane Bolters
Xiphon Interceptor
Two Twin Lascannon
Xiphon Missile Battery
Repulsor
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Three Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
What are you putting in each transport? Have you had any issues with having 2 big transports with lots of stuff in them? The xiphon seems like a very strong unit, how has its performance been vs ground targets?
Why plas cannon on SR over TAC? I'm pretty sure the TAC averages more wounds against almost every target, though I could be wrong without checking the math. Assuming the MM is for a reliable AT on a mobile platform?
The centurions go in the storm raven and the repulsor takes different stuff in different games. The usual set up is to have the hellblasters and characters in it.
Against the GKs I actually ended up deploying nobody in the repulsor, which was a mistake. I wanted to be ready to use auspex scan with the hellblasters but had forgotten you have -1 to hit when using the stratagem, which is not ideal with plasma! The captain was on foot to buff them and the librarian was there to DTW - but then in the end I stole initiative and they were all stranded out of position. In retrospect they would have been much better off in the repulsor. Of course, stealing initiative did mean that I won the game, so it wasn't all bad!
I do have the potential option of putting the aggressors in the repulsor too. Not sure if I'll ever do this, but It might occasionally be worth it if I need to zerg forwards.
So far so good with the Xiphon. It is perfectly happy to shoot at ground targets. It has no penalty for firing heavy weapons on the move (for no reason that I can see - hardly any other flyer gets this). So it hits things that fly on a 2+ and things that don't on a 3+. That's good enough. To be honest it's an embarrassingly good vehicle that makes the stormhawk look like total trash in comparison. It's like a predator that flies and has a bunch of extra special rules and a whole additional gun, for only 20 points more than a predator.
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bort wrote: Taking the RG tactics thread discussion in to account and assuming ITC deployment rules, what do you think of this 2000pt RG list?:
Battalion + Spearhead Detachments (7 CP)
Shrike
Captain - storm bolter, power sword
Lieutenant - storm of fire, storm bolter, power sword
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Total: 2000/2000
The Hellblasters and Aggressors can SftS forwards with Shrike and the VVs and the rest form a firebase with the reroll auras.
I'm still not sold on the Scout armament, 20pts in rifles is a lot when I'm avging 1 wound from the unit at best, but I realized I do own 5 painted sniper models and half my bolter/shotguns are unassembled, so maybe I'll give it a try?...For those who saw my prior list revision, I did swap the 5 grav Devs for 7 Hellblasters. I still think the firepower is mostly a wash, but I do like 14W instead of 5W. If I kept the Devs, I thought I'd add 2 HB Tarantulas with the spare 60ish points. That'd give some super cheap DS protection without having to hold Scouts back.
I actually think you're taking the wrong approach to a ravenguard list here. The good thing about ravenguard is that it's really difficult to shoot their infantry dead. It's not really an army that makes sense with razorbacks, with close-range firepower (all those plasma pistols) or with chaff infantry like scouts. The units that benefit most from RGCTs are intercessors, hellblasters and dakka aggressors.
Razorbacks are really good of course. But there are other chapters that use them at least as well. If you're going to drive up in a razorback, then jump out and shoot, being ravenguard does nothing for you. Salamanders would benefit from their reroll; ultramarines have a stratagem to reroll 1s - plus Guilliman of course - who has awesome synergy with razorbacks.
A friend of mine is building a RG army for a tournament. I don't think there's a single model in his list that opponents won't have -1 to hit against with long-ranged shooting. He's got quite a lot of primaris infantry (I think 15 intercessors, 10 assault hellblasters and 5 aggressors), a captain and librarian, a couple of storm talons, two fighty contemptors and one quad-las mortis contemptor.
Yeah, I have thought about that. Originally the Razorbacks were for deployment count too, now primarily for shooting. Im not planning to drive them up much. But it would have been better for sure if there was a Dread with similar costs and 2 AC arms so they could also get -1.
Wont the assault Hellblasters and Aggressors have the same issue though?
I've been bringing 2 dreads with autocannons and 2 razorbacks with assault cannons and it works pretty well. Sometimes you actually prefer the 2 damage and the chapter tactics are nice.
bort wrote: Yeah, I have thought about that. Originally the Razorbacks were for deployment count too, now primarily for shooting. Im not planning to drive them up much. But it would have been better for sure if there was a Dread with similar costs and 2 AC arms so they could also get -1.
Wont the assault Hellblasters and Aggressors have the same issue though?
I'm not sure what issue you mean. Is it that they'll end up within 12" so their CT doesn't work? Possibly - but at least you aren't trying to make that happen - as you are with things like plasma pistols and shotguns.
RG hellblasters work because, while they do attract a lot of hate, they are really difficult to kill at range, especially in cover. The assault ones in particular are able to move around and keep their distance while spraying really formidable firepower.
Aggressors are a totally different thing. You can use sfts on them to deploy within 18", then start double-tapping with them from turn 1. Nobody can really live with that but, if you deploy them well, they can be really problematic to get rid of.
So these are two units that really make use of the RGCTs and stratagem. And meanwhile intercessors are a complete no-brainer as troops for ravenguard. Shifting RG intercessors from cover is depressingly hard work.
...Oops, I was thinking assault hellblasters only had 18" range. That does make more sense now. I could def see those over VVs.
I agree RG Intercessors are much harder to shift. But, I also doubt they'll be shot at much if youve got hellblasters at the same range. Same for the Scouts, if theyre shot at Im either happy or being tabled. I want at least 1, maybe 2, for the scout deployment but turning the 3rd in to an intercessor squad has appeal.
I can't see throwing points away on Intercessors unless you're trying to go for a brigade and have enough Scouts to block DS before you've hit your troop requirement. Even then I think I'd lean towards just more Scouts or Tacs for the option to deploy in Razorbacks and drastically reduce your number of drops to increase your chances of going first.
I agree with Bort, if Ints are being shot at you're being tabled. If Ints are being charged, they're just as dead as Scouts hit by T1 chargers (Alpha Legion/Raven Guard Berserkers/Vanguard, Warptimed Magnus/Morty, Genestealers, ect), but they don't protect against deep strike shooting. All while costing the most, which is probably their most grievous offense.
I can see Ints being the ones that can pull through those close matches to clutch victory after both armies are spent turn 6 or 7, but it seems that competitive games almost never end that way. It's usually a crushing victory for either side, which is not the kind of fight Ints need to be successful.
As for Bort's list, personally I'm not a fan of the Vanguard Bomb. I've personally used 50 Conscripts to entirely seal of my 2000 point armies from assault plenty of times (I actually just tabled a poor Khorne player without losing anything that wasn't a conscript, he wanted to test against tournament level lists), it's very easy to shut out assault units (I know they're mostly more plasma in this case). If you still want to pull a bomb, I think drop the VVs and Aggressors, add in more Hellblasters (15" threat range is huge, especially after SFTS), swap Shrike for a cheaper jump captain for the Hellblasters, spend the CP to Chapter Master your gunline captain (I think the aura is better used here), and throw the extra points into your gunline. This would also swap your Elite detachment for a Heavy Support one.
If you feel the need for a Countercharge unit, a Contemptor Dread or two may be worth looking at.
I'm wishy-washy on the Dev+Banner combo, it obviously works for a lot of people, but personally I can see issues with LoS and trying to keep everybody in 3 different bubbles. Terrain in your play area is the biggest decider here I think.
Also as it stands you're one Razorback away from being able to completely deploy inside of transports to reduce your drops to their lowest, something to consider when spending extra points if you make the above cuts.
Yeah I've found the Intercessors to be pretty useless. Scouts are much better if you want to block stuff, and tacs, bad as they are, are better at hiding in rhinos and killing things. They will just be ignored until there isn't anything better to shoot at, and then easily killed.
Hmm, thanks. The VVs are definitely the most worrisome part for me, a threat range of only 12" isnt so good when they cant move first. I first put those in since it seemed I needed a hefty enough SftS/DS contingent, VVs seemed popular on here, and I felt my list could use a flying unit (okay, I know, Storm Ravens :p) and they did well in 2 games, but I also didnt run in to good drop protection.
While situational and expensive, you have to admit that if youre going first, being able to SftS the VVs in then jump over the bubble wrap to blast/charge a real target turn 1 is pretty cool.
And yeah, Shrike is there more for the charge reroll, without VVs my gunline guy would be the chapter master...Although, if I were bombing enough Hellblasters forwards, the CM could still be good upfront.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Perth also nailed both why a unit of Intercessors had some appeal for me, but why I didnt bother originally. Assuming 1 scout unit (the sniper ones) were sitting in my deployment zone to cover my flank anyways, swapping ineffective sniping for intecessors who could double tap with -1ap and then move up late game seems a decent trade. But thats still 25pts more for the very rare case a single troop unit would decide a game in turn 5+ vs just going cheap troops and more guns.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah I've found the Intercessors to be pretty useless. Scouts are much better if you want to block stuff, and tacs, bad as they are, are better at hiding in rhinos and killing things. They will just be ignored until there isn't anything better to shoot at, and then easily killed.
The Tactical Marines NEED that Rhino to camp an objective though. That's more expensive than Intercessors. They're also definitely not very killy.
I'm not saying that intercessors are going to slaughter loads of things - but they are more dangerous than sniper scouts. 101 points for 5 guys is only 11 points more than the snipers in exchange for double the wounds and better armour.
Honestly, try them. I guarantee that you'll like them.
I'm not too concerned about bubble wrap against deep strikers. In my own list I set up flyers as my bubble wrap. It means deploying quite deep but that's ok. My storm raven, repulsor and xiphon are pretty hard to shoot dead and virtually impossible to charge for people deep striking. Then my counter-punch is very heavy.
1. The main reason i actually want troops at all is for more CP. Objective secured is decent, but it's not good enough to spend points on since it will only matter in really close drawn out games where a random marine gets stuck in vs something that's not troops. In most of my lists, i automatically spend 3 CP on a chapter master, since re-rolls to hit is so good, so i find having less than 8 CP is somewhat annoying since i will probably need to use some rerolls and whatnot.
2. The less points I spend on troops, the more other stuff i can buy.
3. I need something to protect my shooty units from deepstrike and first turn assaults.
4. People don't usually target stuff if it isn't dangerous unless it is in their way.
55 point boltgun scouts get me all of these things for a great price. Yes, they do die fairly easily, but they aren't very threatening and they are cheap, so i see them being shot at or assaulted as a good thing, since it means none of my other stuff is being shot at.
Tactical squads only help with 1 and 2, but do pack a punch with plasma. They are also very durable inside of a transport, where they can stay until i need to use them to protect a tank. Also, I don't see the transport as a tax, since i usually have 2+ razrobacks in my army anyway. They are likely to die once they get out, shoot, and perhaps charge a unit that was threatening my vehicles, but they typically slow them down enough for it to be worth it.
intercessors don't really help with any of these things. They cost more than scouts or double plasma tacs, do less damage than plasma tacs, and have to foot-slog (because you'd never put them in a repulser), meaning they are very slow. They are more durable than tacs vs some weapons (anything with 1 damage), and generally more durable than scouts vs everything. The durability thing would be cool to me if they actually did any damage, but since they don't, really, i just don't see why anyone would shoot at them anyway, unless it was important enough for them to fire 2 damage weapons (like if they were holding an important objective).
Razorbacks are garbage as transports. Use them as battle tanks and they make sense.
That's truly why Tactical Marines are garbage. Scouts and Intercessors don't need the transport options. Throwing your Razorback into the fray with garbage Tactical Marines during a couple Plasma shots? That's not any good. They don't camp well either.
Intercessors need maybe the same initial investment as camping Tactical Marines but do the camping far better, and don't fool you into thinking they can go up the field at all.
You usually have to move the razorbacks once to get them in range, whether they have anything in them or not. Then they just sit there being a battle tank, moving as needed. Having a tac squad in them doesn't change any of this. If an enemy tries to get close to the razorback, however, having a tac squad inside to slow them down isn't terrible. It's not great, but it's still better than having an intercessor squad sitting around.
I'm not disagreeing with you saying tacs are garbage, though i'm not sure you understand how they would be used. I just think intercessors are even worse.
I'm genuinely curious to know whether people who hate intercessors have actually used them much. I have, and I think they are very good.
I don't like to spend any points on units that do nothing. They are a pure tax. Any tactical marine who doesn't have a special weapon is a tax. A tactical squad with plasma and combi plasma costs almost what an intercessor squad does.
It is simply wrong too say that intercessors don't kill things. They are happy to fight just about any other troops in the game, point for point. Their shooting works and they can fight pretty capably in cc - again totally outclassing most other troops.
It's true that you get more drops if your troops are outside of transports. To get around this I use a repulsor with my hellblasters and characters inside, and a storm raven with assault centurions and the option of carrying any non-primaris characters and/or a dreadnought. I've got 7 drops at 2k (3 intercessor units, the repulsor, raven, xiphon and 5 aggressors). That isn't many.
I kind of see the point of scouts to screen deep strikers. To be honest though, I don't particularly worry about it myself. A combination of auspex scan and flyers that I can deploy along my front line means they get pushed back anyway. Mass deep striking isn't even all that common, and the scouts are little more than a liability against someone zerging in with orks or Nids.
jcd386 wrote: You usually have to move the razorbacks once to get them in range, whether they have anything in them or not. Then they just sit there being a battle tank, moving as needed. Having a tac squad in them doesn't change any of this. If an enemy tries to get close to the razorback, however, having a tac squad inside to slow them down isn't terrible. It's not great, but it's still better than having an intercessor squad sitting around.
I'm not disagreeing with you saying tacs are garbage, though i'm not sure you understand how they would be used. I just think intercessors are even worse.
One of the arguments people in favor of Tactical Marines use is that they can go into a transport, do something, and get back in. It's a super lousy argument I know, but some people think that way. Not needing a transport at all makes Scouts the better choice than Tactical Marines for basically anything.
For Intercessors though, consider that it's 100 points for 5 Marines with a Lascannon and 101 points for Intercessors with a Grenade Launcher. While that Lascannon is an okay weapon, it's only one Lascannon and Tactical Squads can't spam them for efficiency. They also have literally half the wounds.
Intercessors show themselves to be what Tactical Marines should be. Yeah they have less weapon options, but when Sternguard, Bikers, and Devastators do weapon spam better, do Intercessors need those options? The answer is a resounding nope. They just need to camp and pop a few shots.
I'm not arguing for tac marines, because i see scouts as the clearly superior and only troop choice worth taking unless the whole theme of your army is 2 wound infantry (which i don't think is that good either), I'm just saying i would take them over intercessors pretty much every time, and don't see how people think 2 wounds and no special weapons is somehow better.
jcd386 wrote: I'm not arguing for tac marines, because i see scouts as the clearly superior and only troop choice worth taking unless the whole theme of your army is 2 wound infantry (which i don't think is that good either), I'm just saying i would take them over intercessors pretty much every time, and don't see how people think 2 wounds and no special weapons is somehow better.
I think two wounds, two attacks, a better gun, better armour and a 1-point grenade launcher is better.
There are two main ways to run scouts. The barebones ones are only really useful as blockers, and are very cheap. The sniper ones are pretty expensive in that role, but do get sniper guns. Unfortunately, those guns have a negligible effect against lots of armies.
I'd never take sniper scouts when intercessors exist. If you give them cloaks they are only 11 points less than the intercessors. I choose not to have 55 point sacrificial units as well because they aren't even relevant in games against opponents who don't deep strike.
Camo Cloaks should never be bought, period. Superbly overcosted.
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jcd386 wrote: I'm not arguing for tac marines, because i see scouts as the clearly superior and only troop choice worth taking unless the whole theme of your army is 2 wound infantry (which i don't think is that good either), I'm just saying i would take them over intercessors pretty much every time, and don't see how people think 2 wounds and no special weapons is somehow better.
It's because they don't need special weapons. Tactical Marines fool the new player into thinking that, because they have all these upgrades available, they can be kitted out to do anything somewhat. This is a mistake, because they really can't be. Sternguard, Veterans, Bikers, and Devastators are doing your weapon saturation so much better for the points, that this role can never be filled well by them, which means they're basically relegated to camping an objevtive, where 5 extra wounds and better range is much more valuable than a single Lascannon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also last note: for those that have Mathhammered morale, what's the max number of Sternguard you'd take to make sure they don't fall to morale, but you get a good number up the board with Lias? I tried 8 man squads with 2 Grav Cannons but I want more feedback on this.
I think a big misconception about those of us that are against Intercessors is that we're using our other troops primarily to hold objectives also. I've found this not to be the case.
When placing objectives I try to place them so my gunline will be able to hold at least two, with the intent to table my opponent usually anyway, it's rare that a game would come down the wire for board control. If I can't take my two objectives, my gunline is already dead and I've lost. I don't use Scouts to "hold" an objective, they may grab one if it's open and have no opposition, but my "holding" is done by a pile of Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks, also usually Conscripts.
I just don't see the need for a "holding" unit when that's what my gunline is already doing. I have to have three troops, I might as well get something the rest of my list is lacking.
Perth wrote: I think a big misconception about those of us that are against Intercessors is that we're using our other troops primarily to hold objectives also. I've found this not to be the case.
When placing objectives I try to place them so my gunline will be able to hold at least two, with the intent to table my opponent usually anyway, it's rare that a game would come down the wire for board control. If I can't take my two objectives, my gunline is already dead and I've lost. I don't use Scouts to "hold" an objective, they may grab one if it's open and have no opposition, but my "holding" is done by a pile of Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks, also usually Conscripts.
I just don't see the need for a "holding" unit when that's what my gunline is already doing. I have to have three troops, I might as well get something the rest of my list is lacking.
Well no, not really. I'm not under any illusion that bolter scouts can hold objectives. I agree it's not really all that necessary, as so many games end in a tabling.
I like intercessors because they can fight a bit, as opposed to not at all. I'd rather pay 100 points for a unit that's worth 100 points than 55 points for a unit that's worth nothing.
Perth wrote: I think a big misconception about those of us that are against Intercessors is that we're using our other troops primarily to hold objectives also. I've found this not to be the case.
When placing objectives I try to place them so my gunline will be able to hold at least two, with the intent to table my opponent usually anyway, it's rare that a game would come down the wire for board control. If I can't take my two objectives, my gunline is already dead and I've lost. I don't use Scouts to "hold" an objective, they may grab one if it's open and have no opposition, but my "holding" is done by a pile of Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks, also usually Conscripts.
I just don't see the need for a "holding" unit when that's what my gunline is already doing. I have to have three troops, I might as well get something the rest of my list is lacking.
Well no, not really. I'm not under any illusion that bolter scouts can hold objectives. I agree it's not really all that necessary, as so many games end in a tabling.
I like intercessors because they can fight a bit, as opposed to not at all. I'd rather pay 100 points for a unit that's worth 100 points than 55 points for a unit that's worth nothing.
Bolter Scouts are super garbage. Go for literally any other loadout.
Perth wrote: I think a big misconception about those of us that are against Intercessors is that we're using our other troops primarily to hold objectives also. I've found this not to be the case.
When placing objectives I try to place them so my gunline will be able to hold at least two, with the intent to table my opponent usually anyway, it's rare that a game would come down the wire for board control. If I can't take my two objectives, my gunline is already dead and I've lost. I don't use Scouts to "hold" an objective, they may grab one if it's open and have no opposition, but my "holding" is done by a pile of Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks, also usually Conscripts.
I just don't see the need for a "holding" unit when that's what my gunline is already doing. I have to have three troops, I might as well get something the rest of my list is lacking.
This, pretty much exactly.
To me, intercessors just don't do anything and seem like dead weight in a decent list. If i need CP, I want the 3 cheapest troops i can get, and scouts (with bolters or shotguns, whatever floats your boat) do that, with the AMAZING added benefit of also protecting your army from deepstrike. If this isn't needed, I just won't take any troops, or i will take tacs, (since as bad as they are, I still think they are better than intercessors because they can actually do damage to things with special and heavy weapons, which, despite only having 2 in a squad, are made effective by the existence of rerolls), or some other army's troop option (I've mostly ignored this option since this is a SM thread, but it's a very real option).
If you want to talk about damage, scouts actually do more damage per point in shooting than intercessors do against against guardsmen and marines, which seem the most likely targets for these units. So if damage is your goal, you are better off taking 6x5 scouts than you are 3x5 intercessors. Scouts do have less range, but get to deploy closer.
Intercessors are more durable than scouts, but I would argue that this durability is a non issue, since both units are mostly a waste to shoot at. Scouts at least are likely to be in the way, and thus force shots to go into them, while intercessors are not. Unless the unit is on an objective that the other player must take, intercessors' durability is not going to be something they benefit from, and then then the durability of having 2 wounds is meaningless against a large number of weapons in the game that do 2 damage.
Against bolters, intercessors in cover are slightly more than twice as resistant per point than scouts in cover.
Against assault cannons, scouts are about 60% as resistant per point as intercessors.
Against auto-cannons, plasma, grav, etc the scouts are more durable per point.
So, i would argue that in the very rare cases that you are counting on the durability of the intercessors (ie the enemy has to kill them or lose the game, because they are on an objective or something), their durability is not nearly as real as you'd think it is, since the majority of guns people use to delete things that are important will kill them just as easily as they would a tac squad. In any other case, no one is going to shoot at them anyway because they do very little damage and are unlikely to be in the way of things like scouts or tacs (being much more mobile) could be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also feel like it's worth noting that if you don't have cover (either you aren't in it, or the enemy can ignore it) scouts are even more durable.
VS bolters they go from 45% as resistant per point in cover, to 61% out of it
VS assault cannons they go from 62% in to 69% out.
VS auto cannon they go from 124% in to 135% out.
VS Plasma (overcharging) they go from 144% in to 150% out.
2 Special Weapons are absolutely not made usable just because there's a reroll. I don't get this talk about damage coming from Tactical Marines one bit.
But you want to talk about damage coming from intercessors? I guess that's what I'm not understanding.
Again i will reitterate that i don't find tacs to be a good unit. I just think they are significantly more useful than intercessors in most styles of SM lists, particularly ones with vehicles. I actually think they function so differently from one another that they aren't actually worth comparing, but people keep doing it, perhaps because they compete for the same troops spot.
That being said, 4 plasma shots, or 2 plasma and 4 grav (even hitting on 4s if they moved) can reliably damage most units in the game in a significant way. Rerolls increase this ability in a noticable way, is why i mention them.
I tend to think it comes down mostly to deployment options, right?
Take your bolter scouts for 55. Let's first for simplicity assume those 55 points are useless beyond a formation tax. Now look at the tacticals. 2 plasma guns for 93 doesn't sound good at all, but if you instead look at it as 55pts are already gone either way and you're just buying 2 plasma guns for +38pts, well, that doesn't seem too bad a deal. I'd say buying 2 plasmas to go with 3 ablative wounds is fairly comparable to buying 1 hellblaster.
The problem for tacticals being that 55pts of bolter scouts gets you deployment options you can't get elsewhere while that 38pts of plasma can be purchased via a hellblaster.
...Oops, fat fingered submit before adding a sentence on intercessors. Again, I think they're hampered by deployment options, but aren't as directly comparable to scouts for the troop tax role. You're obviously paying a lot more than a bolter upgrade is worth, so you have to give them something else to do. But what that is?...
jcd386 wrote: But you want to talk about damage coming from intercessors? I guess that's what I'm not understanding.
Again i will reitterate that i don't find tacs to be a good unit. I just think they are significantly more useful than intercessors in most styles of SM lists, particularly ones with vehicles. I actually think they function so differently from one another that they aren't actually worth comparing, but people keep doing it, perhaps because they compete for the same troops spot.
That being said, 4 plasma shots, or 2 plasma and 4 grav (even hitting on 4s if they moved) can reliably damage most units in the game in a significant way. Rerolls increase this ability in a noticable way, is why i mention them.
I don't think I said their damage is any good (it's mild, though they're definitely doing melee better for the points that's for sure), but the better durability, range options, and low profile makes them so much better. A Tactical Squad can be removed on a whim if the opponent wants them gone. It takes more than that for Intercessors.
Also think about the tax for those weapons. With Tactical Marines you barely get anything out of your extra bodies. With other units this is not the case.
That's why I rank Scouts > Intercessors, and Tactical Marines aren't even worth mentioning.
When people, myself included, are talking about Tac damage, it's only in comparison to Scouts and Intercessors. It's small, but an advantage.
Personally I'd rank our troops as Scouts >>>> Tacs > Ints, only for the option of Tacs to deploy in a Razorback and at least not increase your number of drops, other wise I'd consider them equally useful depending on your list.
But anyway, we've discussed this to death I think, we aren't doing any new readers any favors, so let's change the topic, a bit anyway.
When taking Scout squads, should Combi and/or Heavy weapons ever be added to the squad, considering how low priority they generally are?
Do you consider Sniper Rifles to be worth taking? We all know Camo is out.
What is your preference on Shotguns or Knives over Bolters?
With Sniper squads, I sometimes take the ML, because its range mostly because the range matches. It isn't necessity though.
I typically stick with Shotguns and a Combi-Plasma for two reasons:
1. Any of them surviving after screening from a Deep Strike attack will be in range to get the S5 off, which is good for anything that is T4 and T5.
2. If I deploy them for capturing an objective, they can advance and fire. Isn't much of a bonus, but it's there.
CCW isn't bad at all, and I'd say equal with the Shotgun. However, I like how Shotguns look more. That said, nothing wrong with either.
Bolters are garbage though and you should never use them.
A few Forge World related thoughts:
Does anyone have experience using a Damocles Command Rhino? It seems neat to have what's effectively a free Command Point every turn (Well, 72/83% of a Command Point every turn) it costs you the use of your Warlord to have him idling inside a Rhino - Encouraging you to use a cheap, worthless model as your Warlord so you aren't wasting a valuable buff or ability.
Also: I'm thinking about using Vaylund Cal for an Iron Hands themed gunline. It's impossible to match the effectiveness of Guilliman, but he gives the healing abilities of a Tech Priest while also granting the re-rolls of a Chapter Master - Something that Iron Hands don't otherwise get access to without burning a whopping 6 Command Points, which is just too cost-prohibitive to be worth it in most circumstances - Getting those re-rolls as well as the healing ability (and a ridiculously tough character with T6 and W5 on top of his 2+4++6+++, which could be buffed by the +1W/6+++ Warlord Trait if you don't want to bother going with a more buffy ability.)
Oh, and on the topic - What the heck is up with Bray'arth Ashmantle?! He's a really tough Dreadnought (T9/2+5++4+++,) and has the Character rule so he can't easily be targetted (which kinds of wastes his durability, but whatever,) but otherwise his damage output is pretty consistent with any ol' Venerable Dreadnought. (He even only gets 4 attacks, despite being equipped with two Close Combat Weapons.)
And he costs FOUR HUNDRED POINTS.
Basically, forgeworld rules and points values are all over the place. Some stuff is too good, other stuff is hilariously overpriced. For best results, cherry pick the stuff that's too good. But feel dirty for doing it.
I'm pretty sure an iron hands character would have to take the iron hands warlord trait by the way.
So I asked if the people who don't like intercessors had tried them. The answer seems to be "no", as nobody has said that they have.
If you haven't used them you won't see the benefit that they bring. To be clear, this is that they remain alive. While they don't have the output of tacticals double tapping plasma, they get to fire over and over again. It all adds up to result in quite a lot of dead stuff.
You can also charge stuff with intercessors, and they'll hurt it. It's sometimes legitimate to have them charge incoming enemy infantry, rather than let them charge you. You can't do this with tacticals or scouts because you risk them just killing you, consolidating forwards and charging other things. The toughness of intercessors means you can usually expect to do some damage and survive your turn, while holding the enemy unit in place for a turn.
And of course there are plenty of enemies that they'll just batter to death.
Waaaghpower wrote: A few Forge World related thoughts:
Does anyone have experience using a Damocles Command Rhino? It seems neat to have what's effectively a free Command Point every turn (Well, 72/83% of a Command Point every turn) it costs you the use of your Warlord to have him idling inside a Rhino - Encouraging you to use a cheap, worthless model as your Warlord so you aren't wasting a valuable buff or ability.
Also: I'm thinking about using Vaylund Cal for an Iron Hands themed gunline. It's impossible to match the effectiveness of Guilliman, but he gives the healing abilities of a Tech Priest while also granting the re-rolls of a Chapter Master - Something that Iron Hands don't otherwise get access to without burning a whopping 6 Command Points, which is just too cost-prohibitive to be worth it in most circumstances - Getting those re-rolls as well as the healing ability (and a ridiculously tough character with T6 and W5 on top of his 2+4++6+++, which could be buffed by the +1W/6+++ Warlord Trait if you don't want to bother going with a more buffy ability.)
Oh, and on the topic - What the heck is up with Bray'arth Ashmantle?! He's a really tough Dreadnought (T9/2+5++4+++,) and has the Character rule so he can't easily be targetted (which kinds of wastes his durability, but whatever,) but otherwise his damage output is pretty consistent with any ol' Venerable Dreadnought. (He even only gets 4 attacks, despite being equipped with two Close Combat Weapons.)
And he costs FOUR HUNDRED POINTS.
Unfortunately Vaylund is going to be stuck with the gak Iron Hands Warlord Trait.
That said, it's better than nothing for us Iron Hands lovers that keep getting screwed over. Use him with a cheap Lt. to get almost the same amount of rerolls as Roboute though without the free 3 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding FW though, I love most of the characters. They mostly do unique things to buff your army like Lias, or just flatout combat monsters like Asterion and Tyberos.
So I have played a couple of games using this final list, (after a rush of paint, so many new models)
Battallion:
1 Captain with MC Boltgun and Teeth of Terra
1 Lieutenant with MC Boltgun and Power Sword
5 Intercessors with Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors with Grenade Launcher
5 Scouts with 4 Sniper rifles and a Heavy Bolter
6 Aggressors with the Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
5 Devastators with Lascannons and cherub
5 Devastators with Plascannons, CombiPlas and Cherub
Razorback with Twin Lascannons
Vanguard:
Kayvan Shrike
Lieutenant with Jump Pack and Thunderhammer
10 Reivers with Combat Knives and Gravchutes
7 Vanguard Veterans, 4x Plaspistol and Power Sword, 2x Plaspistol and Storm Shield, Sarge with plaspistol and Thunder Hammer
7 Vanguard Veterans, 4x Plaspistol and Power Sword, 2x Plaspistol and Storm Shield, Sarge with plaspistol and Thunder Hammer
So the first game I played against a Chaos Berserker List and managed to win but honestly I ended pretty mauled, most things died from both sides. I think I ended with Shrike, the Captain and 3 Vanguards in each squad, while my opponent ended with a crippled Rhino and a wounded Chaos Lord.
Second game I played against a Wave Serpent/Aspect Warriors Eldar list. I survived his Alpha Strike and then delivered a hard blow. His army was crippled by turn two and all he had was some fleeing Serpents filled with Dire Avengers which I proceeded to pursue and wipe for a tabling.
Third game I played against a weak termi-based Ultras army and due to overaverage luck from my part I also tabled him. Overcharge Plasma murders termies too easily.
So what units have performed well? I play as a Hammer & Anvil Tactic. I castle up all anchors in a corner grouped up for reroll auras and wrapped with the intercessors, reivers and scouts, then when the enemy advances (I went second both turns), I drop the VV bomb behind them and ends surrounding him. To be completely honest, none of my lascannons devs have fired a single shot both games, giving up first blood. Also, my Razorback ended destroyed on the first turn first game and crippled the second game. Yet I am happy because both units have performed as a sort of Distraction Carnifex for most of my opponent's first turn. Plascannon Devs have been a star both games, wiping light tanks and transports in a turn, while my aggressors are simply ridiculous. There have not been a TURN they do not destroy what I aim them at. Intercessors and Reivers seem weak, but then again they are there to withstand the line, not do any damage, and for it they have been useful. (Reivers almost always end wiped but manage to take their weight on points, of course I also play them terribly aggro).
The Vanguard Bomb works, yet I always end in a conumdrum when I drop them. If Shrike charges first, thanks to his warlord trait, he eats up the overwatch, but then again I lose the charge rerolls for the Vanguard units, (they are left behind at 9"). So I have realized the Warlord trait usually ends wasted unless he charges solo later in the game. Both games I usually get a charge 1st turn and an overcharged fusillade of plasma that deals considerable damage (Only lost one plasma guy each game). Yet, it is important to try to descend in a good position so you can shoot at one thing and charge another, as otherwise with cunning model removal the enemy can deny your charges. (Unless you are trying to soften a tank/dread et al with shooting before charging it). I ate an entire kill shot Predator Squadron with the bomb on one game.
Things I am not convinced? The melee weapons on my "Anvil" characters. Not too many points, but I am thinking of moving the relics to another character. The Captain has the Teeth of Terra to countercharge anything coming too close, but usually the Vanguard Bomb takes that role first. I am also thinking of exchanging the Razorback with a Dread, I think given the chapter tactic the Dread might be more survivable.
Is there any way you guys can think of (respecting the "spirit" of the list), reducing drops as to get first turn? So far I have only been able to use the RG Stratagem to place speed bumps due to 12-14 drops. I'd like to be able to give something an Aggressor paintrain alpha someday. So far my opponents have ignored them first turn, I guess out of lack of experience dealing with them. By the time they try to focus them it is too late, yet my Chaos opponent said he wasn't going to let the unit come unscathed from now on.
First of all, id suggest playing with the upcoming first turn rules, where the players roll off for first turn, and the player who finished deploying first gets a +1. This is the future in the chapter approved, and what most large tournements are doing.
That being said, i think the only way to play RG and get first turn more often than not is to mech up and avoid dropping in too many characters. I've found 6 to 7 drops gets you first turn or the +1 most of the time as is hard to get below that. Under 10 probably gets you first about half the time.
To do this, you pretty much have to avoid primaris units, might want to take a land raider to stuff units into, or at least rhino/razorback/storm ravens, and probably can't drop more than one character, or more than one first turn in your face unit. I'm not sure this is appealing to you. Sadly SM don't have something like 20 berzerkers or electropriests to SftS on people, so i don't think we can really rely on it for the theme of our lists like chaos and admech can.
I finally played Aggressors for the first time yesterday. Only a small game (750), against Death Guard. They were killed by some combination of Smite, blight launchers and a lawnmower drone but even still...I liked them. They weren’t brilliant, and I didn’t play them as intelligently as I’m sure many of you folks would, but I definitely saw a real glimmer of potential. They’re fragile as hell but the dakka they can lay down, even on the move, is quite nice. I proxied them using inceptor minis and I’m now committed to buying a box of them.
On another note, the Ven Dread I assembled the other day hit the table and was as magnificent as I’d hoped. Twin las and twin autocannon was quite fairly flexible, and he gave my opponent some trouble for sure. He’ll likely be a staple in my lists going forward.
Unfortunately Vaylund is going to be stuck with the gak Iron Hands Warlord Trait.
That said, it's better than nothing for us Iron Hands lovers that keep getting screwed over. Use him with a cheap Lt. to get almost the same amount of rerolls as Roboute though without the free 3 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding FW though, I love most of the characters. They mostly do unique things to buff your army like Lias, or just flatout combat monsters like Asterion and Tyberos.
Would he, though? I was under the impression that those Warlord Traits were only locked in for mainline characters. (That is, characters with the official Iron Hands keyword - Vaylund Cal is 'Sons of Medusa'.) If not, I'll just... Make my Lieutenant the Warlord or something, I guess.
Unfortunately Vaylund is going to be stuck with the gak Iron Hands Warlord Trait.
That said, it's better than nothing for us Iron Hands lovers that keep getting screwed over. Use him with a cheap Lt. to get almost the same amount of rerolls as Roboute though without the free 3 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding FW though, I love most of the characters. They mostly do unique things to buff your army like Lias, or just flatout combat monsters like Asterion and Tyberos.
Would he, though? I was under the impression that those Warlord Traits were only locked in for mainline characters. (That is, characters with the official Iron Hands keyword - Vaylund Cal is 'Sons of Medusa'.) If not, I'll just... Make my Lieutenant the Warlord or something, I guess.
No, he's not. He's a 'Sons of Medusa' character. Iron Hands don't actually have any unique characters.
You can technically choose any Chapter for him, as FW hasn't done a real FAQ yet on which Tactics to go. Once the tactic is selected though, named characters are locked I'm sure is how it works.
No, he's not. He's a 'Sons of Medusa' character. Iron Hands don't actually have any unique characters.
You can technically choose any Chapter for him, as FW hasn't done a real FAQ yet on which Tactics to go. Once the tactic is selected though, named characters are locked I'm sure is how it works.
I'm not so sure about that. The wording for Chapter Tactics and Strategems is as such:
"If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic/Strategem, use the Chapter Tactic/Strategem of its founding Chapter"
The wording for Warlord Traits is:
"If a named character is your Warlord, they must be given the associated Warlord Trait of their Chapter."
So, if I'm playing Sons of Medusa, I don't 'Count as' Iron Hands or anything, I just use some of their rules. There is no associated Warlord Trait for Sons of Medusa.
(Incedentally, I'm fairly certain that Sons of Medusa CAN'T take the Iron Hands Relic, because I don't see any exemption for succesor chapters under 'Relics' while those exemptions exist for CTs and Strategems.)
No, he's not. He's a 'Sons of Medusa' character. Iron Hands don't actually have any unique characters.
You can technically choose any Chapter for him, as FW hasn't done a real FAQ yet on which Tactics to go. Once the tactic is selected though, named characters are locked I'm sure is how it works.
I'm not so sure about that. The wording for Chapter Tactics and Strategems is as such:
"If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic/Strategem, use the Chapter Tactic/Strategem of its founding Chapter"
The wording for Warlord Traits is:
"If a named character is your Warlord, they must be given the associated Warlord Trait of their Chapter."
So, if I'm playing Sons of Medusa, I don't 'Count as' Iron Hands or anything, I just use some of their rules. There is no associated Warlord Trait for Sons of Medusa.
(Incedentally, I'm fairly certain that Sons of Medusa CAN'T take the Iron Hands Relic, because I don't see any exemption for succesor chapters under 'Relics' while those exemptions exist for CTs and Strategems.)
I'm thinking we are gonna need an FAQ, but I'm guaranteeing it's gonna go the way I'm thinking it will. That is, unless FW elects to give them individual traits.
RAW, FW successor chapters can't even take the chapter specific codex warlord traits if they wanted to. There would have to be a rules blurb specifically allowing that like there is for chapter tactics, relics, and strategems.
They can pick from the standard 6, though, since they are still adeptus astartes.
What RAI is seems unclear, since it almost seems specifically left out. Hopefully FW will get around to clearing that sort of thing up at some point.
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
8 Total Command Points
So there's a lot going on with this list. The main idea is an ultra alpha strike. Sternguard aren't too hot unless they can be dropped off, and Lias basically acts as 3 Drop Pods for them to be close and get at the screens that might be an issue, or after meatier targets with the Grav Cannons. I pretty much don't expect anything on this side of the list to live until the end of the game, save MAYBE Lias and his cover camping pansy ass.
Meanwhile, we all know how coolio Twin Assault Cannons are against most targets, so they will do what they do and get as close as possible T1, while the Scorpius does sorta the same thing, though not needing as much of the closeness (and can even just completely out of site, as it doesn't need LOS itself). Huron strikes in as necessary to give them his aura, and the Lieutenant runs as fast as he can to keep up and do the same thing.
Intercessors will be a screen near the back of those guys and try to prompt and tease potential Strikers from the rear. They require more effort to kill off, which means they can fire back and assault, and/or one of the two HQ's of that section and walk up and hit them with their fists.
Scouts are simple screens either for everyone else or kept safe to camp an objective, depending on how I think the opponent will operate. If the opponent is a coward and camping, they can be relatively safe as the opponent won't likely try to go after them and rather the Sternguard, which means getting in ASAP, shooting, and charging and potentially tarpitting (which won't be as much an issue with Conscripts anymore, seeing that Orders aren't automatic for them). If the opponent is rushing me, they're serviceable as a screen.
So obviously there will be list critiques, but my other question is what Chapter Tactics to use for the Astral Claws? For a shooting line with vehicles, it won't matter much, but will the rest of the Infantry just be better under Raven Guard like the Raptors would do, or is there potential with another Chapter Tactic I'm missing? Also, since there are even people pointing out that RAW these characters can't even pick the Chapter Warlord traits...which one is right for Huron? Storm Of Fire is the obvious pick, unless I'm picking Iron Resolve to make Slay The Warlord slightly harder.
There were lots of talks about two pistols vv when the codex (or was it the index ?) dropped out.
What is the consensus,
now ? I've been considering playing a
little squad of 6 with two plasma pistols each.
It isn't expensive, and when overheated it can destroy a termi squad/a rhino a turn. It seems like a good alpha strike.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Speaking of FW,
I'm looking for feedback on something I've been kinda cooking up. It'll look weird but it's kinda cool.
Battalion: Astral Claws
x1 Lugft Huron (Warlord)
x1 Lieutenant
. Power Fist, The Primarch's Wrath
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
8 Total Command Points
So there's a lot going on with this list. The main idea is an ultra alpha strike. Sternguard aren't too hot unless they can be dropped off, and Lias basically acts as 3 Drop Pods for them to be close and get at the screens that might be an issue, or after meatier targets with the Grav Cannons. I pretty much don't expect anything on this side of the list to live until the end of the game, save MAYBE Lias and his cover camping pansy ass.
Meanwhile, we all know how coolio Twin Assault Cannons are against most targets, so they will do what they do and get as close as possible T1, while the Scorpius does sorta the same thing, though not needing as much of the closeness (and can even just completely out of site, as it doesn't need LOS itself). Huron strikes in as necessary to give them his aura, and the Lieutenant runs as fast as he can to keep up and do the same thing.
Intercessors will be a screen near the back of those guys and try to prompt and tease potential Strikers from the rear. They require more effort to kill off, which means they can fire back and assault, and/or one of the two HQ's of that section and walk up and hit them with their fists.
Scouts are simple screens either for everyone else or kept safe to camp an objective, depending on how I think the opponent will operate. If the opponent is a coward and camping, they can be relatively safe as the opponent won't likely try to go after them and rather the Sternguard, which means getting in ASAP, shooting, and charging and potentially tarpitting (which won't be as much an issue with Conscripts anymore, seeing that Orders aren't automatic for them). If the opponent is rushing me, they're serviceable as a screen.
So obviously there will be list critiques, but my other question is what Chapter Tactics to use for the Astral Claws? For a shooting line with vehicles, it won't matter much, but will the rest of the Infantry just be better under Raven Guard like the Raptors would do, or is there potential with another Chapter Tactic I'm missing? Also, since there are even people pointing out that RAW these characters can't even pick the Chapter Warlord traits...which one is right for Huron? Storm Of Fire is the obvious pick, unless I'm picking Iron Resolve to make Slay The Warlord slightly harder.
Sure. My character isn't actually Lugft himself but gonna be a dude with one of those cool looking Lightning Claws from that FW Raven Guard special unit Sergeant and a flamer. It'll work just fine.
If you think that's gonna get too many eyerolls I can just use more Scouts.
godardc wrote: There were lots of talks about two pistols vv when the codex (or was it the index ?) dropped out.
What is the consensus,
now ? I've been considering playing a
little squad of 6 with two plasma pistols each.
It isn't expensive, and when overheated it can destroy a termi squad/a rhino a turn. It seems like a good alpha strike.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Speaking of FW,
I'm looking for feedback on something I've been kinda cooking up. It'll look weird but it's kinda cool.
Battalion: Astral Claws
x1 Lugft Huron (Warlord)
x1 Lieutenant
. Power Fist, The Primarch's Wrath
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
x8 Sternguard
. 6 SI Bolters, 2 Grav Cannons
8 Total Command Points
So there's a lot going on with this list. The main idea is an ultra alpha strike. Sternguard aren't too hot unless they can be dropped off, and Lias basically acts as 3 Drop Pods for them to be close and get at the screens that might be an issue, or after meatier targets with the Grav Cannons. I pretty much don't expect anything on this side of the list to live until the end of the game, save MAYBE Lias and his cover camping pansy ass.
Meanwhile, we all know how coolio Twin Assault Cannons are against most targets, so they will do what they do and get as close as possible T1, while the Scorpius does sorta the same thing, though not needing as much of the closeness (and can even just completely out of site, as it doesn't need LOS itself). Huron strikes in as necessary to give them his aura, and the Lieutenant runs as fast as he can to keep up and do the same thing.
Intercessors will be a screen near the back of those guys and try to prompt and tease potential Strikers from the rear. They require more effort to kill off, which means they can fire back and assault, and/or one of the two HQ's of that section and walk up and hit them with their fists.
Scouts are simple screens either for everyone else or kept safe to camp an objective, depending on how I think the opponent will operate. If the opponent is a coward and camping, they can be relatively safe as the opponent won't likely try to go after them and rather the Sternguard, which means getting in ASAP, shooting, and charging and potentially tarpitting (which won't be as much an issue with Conscripts anymore, seeing that Orders aren't automatic for them). If the opponent is rushing me, they're serviceable as a screen.
So obviously there will be list critiques, but my other question is what Chapter Tactics to use for the Astral Claws? For a shooting line with vehicles, it won't matter much, but will the rest of the Infantry just be better under Raven Guard like the Raptors would do, or is there potential with another Chapter Tactic I'm missing? Also, since there are even people pointing out that RAW these characters can't even pick the Chapter Warlord traits...which one is right for Huron? Storm Of Fire is the obvious pick, unless I'm picking Iron Resolve to make Slay The Warlord slightly harder.
Lufgt Huron with primaris marines ?^^
They're good, but other things are just gooder. A G man castle is better. If you can deployment cheese with raven guard (and Lias). you need that drop in less as your shooters are up close anyways, and so you have more incentive to make a good anti light infantry unit (dual chainswords).
Whats the consensus on Spartan Assault Tanks? Similar firepower to Terminus Ultra but much more survivable. Not to mention it can transport a bunch of stuff and crushing tracks are a thing.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Whats the consensus on Spartan Assault Tanks? Similar firepower to Terminus Ultra but much more survivable. Not to mention it can transport a bunch of stuff and crushing tracks are a thing.
Only downside is that they use up a detachment all to themselves, and you can't take more than one. My Spartan is pretty great. If I actually had stuff I wanted to transport inside it, I'd use it in just about every game.
(Heck, if you're planning on taking two Predators, you can spend an extra hundred points and get a durability bump, mobile firing, and 25 free slots to reduce drops and help get first turn.)
bobsmith7777 wrote: Whats the consensus on Spartan Assault Tanks? Similar firepower to Terminus Ultra but much more survivable. Not to mention it can transport a bunch of stuff and crushing tracks are a thing.
Only downside is that they use up a detachment all to themselves, and you can't take more than one. My Spartan is pretty great. If I actually had stuff I wanted to transport inside it, I'd use it in just about every game.
(Heck, if you're planning on taking two Predators, you can spend an extra hundred points and get a durability bump, mobile firing, and 25 free slots to reduce drops and help get first turn.)
Truth. Its a shame the Lord of War detachment has a minimum 3 unit requirement
bobsmith7777 wrote: Whats the consensus on Spartan Assault Tanks? Similar firepower to Terminus Ultra but much more survivable. Not to mention it can transport a bunch of stuff and crushing tracks are a thing.
Only downside is that they use up a detachment all to themselves, and you can't take more than one. My Spartan is pretty great. If I actually had stuff I wanted to transport inside it, I'd use it in just about every game.
(Heck, if you're planning on taking two Predators, you can spend an extra hundred points and get a durability bump, mobile firing, and 25 free slots to reduce drops and help get first turn.)
Truth. Its a shame the Lord of War detachment has a minimum 3 unit requirement
Well yes, but also, because of the 'Relic' rule, you would actually need FOUR Lords of War if you wanted to take two Spartans.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Whats the consensus on Spartan Assault Tanks? Similar firepower to Terminus Ultra but much more survivable. Not to mention it can transport a bunch of stuff and crushing tracks are a thing.
Only downside is that they use up a detachment all to themselves, and you can't take more than one. My Spartan is pretty great. If I actually had stuff I wanted to transport inside it, I'd use it in just about every game.
(Heck, if you're planning on taking two Predators, you can spend an extra hundred points and get a durability bump, mobile firing, and 25 free slots to reduce drops and help get first turn.)
Truth. Its a shame the Lord of War detachment has a minimum 3 unit requirement
Well yes, but also, because of the 'Relic' rule, you would actually need FOUR Lords of War if you wanted to take two Spartans.
Yea I'm aware of that restriction. Was just meaning to say that if it was a minimum 2 unit LoW detachment, I would be content with Bobby G + some relic in a +3CP detachment.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Whats the consensus on Spartan Assault Tanks? Similar firepower to Terminus Ultra but much more survivable. Not to mention it can transport a bunch of stuff and crushing tracks are a thing.
Only downside is that they use up a detachment all to themselves, and you can't take more than one. My Spartan is pretty great. If I actually had stuff I wanted to transport inside it, I'd use it in just about every game.
(Heck, if you're planning on taking two Predators, you can spend an extra hundred points and get a durability bump, mobile firing, and 25 free slots to reduce drops and help get first turn.)
Truth. Its a shame the Lord of War detachment has a minimum 3 unit requirement
Well yes, but also, because of the 'Relic' rule, you would actually need FOUR Lords of War if you wanted to take two Spartans.
Yea I'm aware of that restriction. Was just meaning to say that if it was a minimum 2 unit LoW detachment, I would be content with Bobby G + some relic in a +3CP detachment.
The command detachment is an option. The Spartan doesn't get CTs so you can have some soup hqs if you want. It's not a bad way to get a Culexus and Greyfax into your list, for example.
Howdy! I'm a new, returning (3rd-5th vet) player and I'll definitely be playing Crimson Fists. I started them ~18 years ago, when they were on the codex cover , and I'm more concerned with my army's overall fluff / theme, rather than worrying about using the "best" chapter tactics / strategem. Perhaps age & D&D have changed my wargaming mentality.
I want to build my lists around a decent amount of Primaris Marines, as I really like the models and this make sense to me given Guilliman returned and bolstered the chapter's ranks with them. I've started my collection with two Space Marine halves of the Dark Imperium set. Essentially, I'm looking at starting with something like:
Pedro Kantor
Primaris Librarian
Primaris Lieutenant (with Power Sword?)
2x5 Intercessors w/ Bolt Rifles + Grenade Launcher
2x5 Scouts w/ Shotguns
2x5 Hellblasters w/ Plasma Incinerators
From there, I'm currently debating whether I want to add some Sternguard, Devastators, or vehicles!
Also, as I've been considering options, I've come up with the following questions so far:
1) How're people liking the Primaris HQ / Elite options vs. their regular Marine counterparts? As an example, I think I specifically want to take a Primaris Lieutenant, even though he's a few more points. Similarly, I think I want to use the new Primaris Librarian too.
2) Speaking of which, how are people feeling about Librarians this edition?
3) Is it worth upgrading Sergeants with options like Power Swords / Combi-weapons? I feel like this isn't something I'd prioritize with list-building. If I have extra points? Sure.
4) It looks like Razorbacks / Predators are still very viable. How do you weigh these vs. more boots on the ground? How much of either option is too much?
5) I quit at the advent of 6th, so I didn't have a lot of exposure to flyers / tanks / Imperial Knights / etc. If I'm taking a good amount of heavy weapons, something like 10 Hellblasters and a Devastator squad, do I need to be overly worried about these types of options?
Thanks! I'm sure I'll have more questions as I play more.
Wolf 11x wrote: Howdy! I'm a new, returning (3rd-5th vet) player and I'll definitely be playing Crimson Fists. I started them ~18 years ago, when they were on the codex cover , and I'm more concerned with my army's overall fluff / theme, rather than worrying about using the "best" chapter tactics / strategem. Perhaps age & D&D have changed my wargaming mentality.
I want to build my lists around a decent amount of Primaris Marines, as I really like the models and this make sense to me given Guilliman returned and bolstered the chapter's ranks with them. I've started my collection with two Space Marine halves of the Dark Imperium set. Essentially, I'm looking at starting with something like:
Pedro Kantor
Primaris Librarian
Primaris Lieutenant (with Power Sword?)
2x5 Intercessors w/ Bolt Rifles + Grenade Launcher
2x5 Scouts w/ Shotguns
2x5 Hellblasters w/ Plasma Incinerators
From there, I'm currently debating whether I want to add some Sternguard, Devastators, or vehicles!
Also, as I've been considering options, I've come up with the following questions so far:
1) How're people liking the Primaris HQ / Elite options vs. their regular Marine counterparts? As an example, I think I specifically want to take a Primaris Lieutenant, even though he's a few more points. Similarly, I think I want to use the new Primaris Librarian too.
2) Speaking of which, how are people feeling about Librarians this edition?
3) Is it worth upgrading Sergeants with options like Power Swords / Combi-weapons? I feel like this isn't something I'd prioritize with list-building. If I have extra points? Sure.
4) It looks like Razorbacks / Predators are still very viable. How do you weigh these vs. more boots on the ground? How much of either option is too much?
5) I quit at the advent of 6th, so I didn't have a lot of exposure to flyers / tanks / Imperial Knights / etc. If I'm taking a good amount of heavy weapons, something like 10 Hellblasters and a Devastator squad, do I need to be overly worried about these types of options?
Thanks! I'm sure I'll have more questions as I play more.
1. Not having the same access to wargear options kinda sucks. Been a big fan of the relic blade + plas pistol combo on captains, though for lieuts the difference isnt that big.
2. Smite spam is good, but Librarians don't give that. Some of the buffs from the psychic powers list is alright I guess.
3. Very worthwhile.
4. Lascannon Predators are decent anti-tank option. Razorbacks are mostly there to ensure your boots on the ground don't get blown up instantly and for the Assault Cannon for anti-horde. Keep in mind most transports outside of a few FW tanks and the Repulsor cannot transport Primaris Marines.
5. People have had decent success with Hellblasters, but getting them in range can be an issue depending on what you play against. Your list should include a decent number of Lascannons if you expect to play against vehicle-heavy lists often.
Wolf 11x wrote: Howdy! I'm a new, returning (3rd-5th vet) player and I'll definitely be playing Crimson Fists. I started them ~18 years ago, when they were on the codex cover , and I'm more concerned with my army's overall fluff / theme, rather than worrying about using the "best" chapter tactics / strategem. Perhaps age & D&D have changed my wargaming mentality.
I want to build my lists around a decent amount of Primaris Marines, as I really like the models and this make sense to me given Guilliman returned and bolstered the chapter's ranks with them. I've started my collection with two Space Marine halves of the Dark Imperium set. Essentially, I'm looking at starting with something like:
Pedro Kantor
Primaris Librarian
Primaris Lieutenant (with Power Sword?)
2x5 Intercessors w/ Bolt Rifles + Grenade Launcher
2x5 Scouts w/ Shotguns
2x5 Hellblasters w/ Plasma Incinerators
From there, I'm currently debating whether I want to add some Sternguard, Devastators, or vehicles!
Also, as I've been considering options, I've come up with the following questions so far:
1) How're people liking the Primaris HQ / Elite options vs. their regular Marine counterparts? As an example, I think I specifically want to take a Primaris Lieutenant, even though he's a few more points. Similarly, I think I want to use the new Primaris Librarian too.
2) Speaking of which, how are people feeling about Librarians this edition?
3) Is it worth upgrading Sergeants with options like Power Swords / Combi-weapons? I feel like this isn't something I'd prioritize with list-building. If I have extra points? Sure.
4) It looks like Razorbacks / Predators are still very viable. How do you weigh these vs. more boots on the ground? How much of either option is too much?
5) I quit at the advent of 6th, so I didn't have a lot of exposure to flyers / tanks / Imperial Knights / etc. If I'm taking a good amount of heavy weapons, something like 10 Hellblasters and a Devastator squad, do I need to be overly worried about these types of options?
Thanks! I'm sure I'll have more questions as I play more.
The primaris librarian is a flat upgrade over a standard librarian, same points for better performance. But he can't come is termie or jump back version, limiting his role a bit. Regular lieutenants I rate higher than primaris lts, for reason of cost. They are never going to be amazing, so that powersword is wasted. Primaris captains are alright if you do not need mobility. Same with the chaplain version. The primaris elite options are all underwhelming outside the banner and I like the apothecary, but you den take him standard. Reivers just don't pull their weight. Aggressors have a place in shenanigans lists though
Primarus have better base stats but have absolutly no options.
that is their shtick.
the regular variants gain access to mobility, and weapon options up the wazoo and better transports. having more combi plasmas shooting instead of just a generic bolter would be nice on occasion. otherwise you keep them cheaper by going stock.
After reviewing the Librarian powers and Primaris character equipment further, I think I'll start with something like Kantor, a Captain, and a Lieutenant.
It's a shame the Primaris LT can't take a Power Sword and a gun. I'd pay 10 more points for the extra wound and attack over a "regular" LT w/ Power Sword, but I don't expect him to be in combat *that* much and the ability to take a Master-crafted Boltgun on the normal LT seems nice.
I worry about the utility of the Aggressors since their weapons are short range. The Vindicator has longer range and can move around better, in addition to more wounds and higher toughness.
Looks like a pretty fun list, if I had to pick something you are pretty low on high end AT. Making the swap from Aggressors to the Vindicator might help a bit, you also might favor a second dev squad over a Hellblaster squad, depending on your local scene.
I"d be a little worried about a Rhino being able to get your Sternguard where they need to go, but with two Razorbacks and a Vindicator it might have enough distractions to make it.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am debating on if I want to use a squad of Aggressors or use a Vindicator. They cost roughly the same amount of points. Here is my current list:
I worry about the utility of the Aggressors since their weapons are short range. The Vindicator has longer range and can move around better, in addition to more wounds and higher toughness.
I don't like that vindicators have to get so close before that Demolisher Cannon can get to work, or the fact that they don't have PotMS (or an equivalent). Might be better off with Devastators or a Lascannon Predator perhaps.
I guess I would have to do the math on what is better, my squad of Hellblasters or my Missile Launcher Devastators Squad. I imagine once the Hellblasters get in RF range, they eclipse the Missile Launchers. They will probably be near one of the HQs as well, so they will be rerolling some of their hits and wounds.
As for the Vindicator, I can't really make up my mind. I will probably run the list both ways and see if it even does anything effective. I worry I might be sacrificing anti-horde potential with not a lot gained.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am debating on if I want to use a squad of Aggressors or use a Vindicator. They cost roughly the same amount of points. Here is my current list:
I worry about the utility of the Aggressors since their weapons are short range. The Vindicator has longer range and can move around better, in addition to more wounds and higher toughness.
I don't like that vindicators have to get so close before that Demolisher Cannon can get to work, or the fact that they don't have PotMS (or an equivalent). Might be better off with Devastators or a Lascannon Predator perhaps.
The issue is that I don't really have the points for a Lascannon Predator. A Twin Lascannon Razorback might be a good option. It would leave me with 21 pts to do who-knows-what with though.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess I would have to do the math on what is better, my squad of Hellblasters or my Missile Launcher Devastators Squad. I imagine once the Hellblasters get in RF range, they eclipse the Missile Launchers. They will probably be near one of the HQs as well, so they will be rerolling some of their hits and wounds.
As for the Vindicator, I can't really make up my mind. I will probably run the list both ways and see if it even does anything effective. I worry I might be sacrificing anti-horde potential with not a lot gained.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am debating on if I want to use a squad of Aggressors or use a Vindicator. They cost roughly the same amount of points. Here is my current list:
I worry about the utility of the Aggressors since their weapons are short range. The Vindicator has longer range and can move around better, in addition to more wounds and higher toughness.
I don't like that vindicators have to get so close before that Demolisher Cannon can get to work, or the fact that they don't have PotMS (or an equivalent). Might be better off with Devastators or a Lascannon Predator perhaps.
The issue is that I don't really have the points for a Lascannon Predator. A Twin Lascannon Razorback might be a good option. It would leave me with 21 pts to do who-knows-what with though.
Could trim some units here or there. Maybe some Sternguard or something like that. TBH I haven't been too fond of the apothecary either.
Edit: You can take some more HK Missiles to fill out some more points.
My Sternguard are going perform Ultimate Sternguard Attack Pattern at least once before I ever consider trimming them down. I need them to be near Pedro(reroll to all misses) and the Lieutenant(reroll 1s to wound), get the Targeting Data Skull buff from the Rhino Primaris(+1 to hit), and trigger Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship. Possibly give the Captain Storm of Fire for extra AP. Maximum Bolt Death!
I actually already trimmed out two 5-man Sternguard Squads to make room for the two Hellblaster Squads. They seemed like they were a better option than 5 Combi-Melta and 5 Combi-Plasma.
To me this demonstrates the problem with sternguard. You're talking about combining them with a bunch of different characters (costing more than the unit itself) and two stratagems to get them to work. You're making an enemy unit very dead, but using four units and 2cps to do it.
It's too hard to make work, too expensive and too easy to prevent. Your opponent just has to shoot the sternguard and all that other stuff is left stood around doing very little. So overall this is fun, but not a serious strategy.
Also note that Kantor is arguably worse than a normal captain. He forces you to reroll 2s, which would be hits with the rhino buff. Actually it's more likely they'll end up refilling as 5s or 6s, generating extra shots, rather than 1s and missing. So I guess go for it - if you're always going to use bolter drill.
Mandragola wrote: To me this demonstrates the problem with sternguard. You're talking about combining them with a bunch of different characters (costing more than the unit itself) and two stratagems to get them to work. You're making an enemy unit very dead, but using four units and 2cps to do it.
It's too hard to make work, too expensive and too easy to prevent. Your opponent just has to shoot the sternguard and all that other stuff is left stood around doing very little. So overall this is fun, but not a serious strategy.
Also note that Kantor is arguably worse than a normal captain. He forces you to reroll 2s, which would be hits with the rhino buff. Actually it's more likely they'll end up refilling as 5s or 6s, generating extra shots, rather than 1s and missing. So I guess go for it - if you're always going to use bolter drill.
I agree in part, though I think Casvalremdeikun (phew!) was suggesting this as more of a "that would be so cool to pull of once for fun" rather than a serious strategy.
I've been using a suad of 9 Sternguard in a drop pod together with a Captain with the Storm of Fire warlord trait to great effect. It's pricey but not that pricey and you're pretty much guaranteed to get the alpha strike off for only one command point (diregarding bolter drill, which I find underpowered). I use this unit to put pressure on the enemy center of gravity while the rest of my army shoots/advances at it. I'm currently experimenting with deep striking a second unit along with them, like some Terminators or Vanguard Veterans, and that's showing promise too.
As you can see, this leaves me a little bit over half a list to build!
Clearly, I need a 3rd heavy. I'm leaning towards a Devastator squad with Lascannons or a Predator with Lascannons. In the case of Devs, is it worth taking extra wounds?
Some thoughts on the options I'm considering:
1) Aggressors - If I'm understanding correctly, these put out 6+D6 shots per model and would bring a lot of anti-Horde to the table. I don't think I'd run the Flamer variant.
2) Dreadnoughts - I've always been a fan of Dreads, both fluff and rules-wise. At the time I quit playing, Dakkadreads were the norm. It looks like the Assault Cannon might be a better option now?
3) Sternguard - I like these conceptually, but they seem expensive for what they do. I'm not sure I need more Boltguns either (even with AP-2).
4) Bike squads - These look great this edition, especially as an anti-Horde option. It looks to me like each bike would get 5 shots w/n 12" and I like their ability to rapidly respond to threats. In a way, I'd view these as competitors to Aggressors.
5) Devastators - Classic. My main question is whether I'd take extra wounds. Unfortunately, I don't think Missiles look very viable now, especially compared to Lascannons. Back in my day, we always took 4 Missile Launchers!
6) Predator - I've always been a fan of this tank and the changes to vehicles make it even more appealing. I can't imagine not taking the Twin Lascannon over the Autocannon. I think I'd go ahead and take Lascannon sponsons as well.
7) Razorback - The twin Assault Cannon variant looks like the way to go now. I always enjoyed playing Las/Plasbacks, so I can see taking a couple of these, even if it bothers me conceptually that they can't even carry Primaris Marines...
8) Flyers - I got out of the game before these became options. I'd be curious for feedback as to their viability.
9) If I were to take several vehicles, I could even see taking a Techmarine (or swapping it in if I don't need a 4th detachment HQ). I'm glad they made his repair rule more viable than when I last played.
Does it sound like I'm on the right track? I'd appreciate any advice.
Mandragola wrote: To me this demonstrates the problem with sternguard. You're talking about combining them with a bunch of different characters (costing more than the unit itself) and two stratagems to get them to work. You're making an enemy unit very dead, but using four units and 2cps to do it.
It's too hard to make work, too expensive and too easy to prevent. Your opponent just has to shoot the sternguard and all that other stuff is left stood around doing very little. So overall this is fun, but not a serious strategy.
Also note that Kantor is arguably worse than a normal captain. He forces you to reroll 2s, which would be hits with the rhino buff. Actually it's more likely they'll end up refilling as 5s or 6s, generating extra shots, rather than 1s and missing. So I guess go for it - if you're always going to use bolter drill.
Pedro Kantor does not force anything. You *CAN* reroll 2s, not *MUST*. Sternguard work fine on their own. What I want to see is what happens when all of those things stack together. This combo requires way too much positioning to ever get off. Ultimately, they will probably be mostly on the receiving end of Bolter Drill at any given time. The Rhino is more likely going to be in support of the Hellblasters so they can overcharge with impunity.
Ahh ok. If it's an optional reroll then that's different. I was thinking of Celestine forcing seraphim to reroll passed saves.
I'm still not a fan of sternguard - I'd just field intercessors - but if it works for you then fine. The various buffing characters make more sense if there are other units they can buff as well.
Mandragola wrote: Ahh ok. If it's an optional reroll then that's different. I was thinking of Celestine forcing seraphim to reroll passed saves.
I'm still not a fan of sternguard - I'd just field intercessors - but if it works for you then fine. The various buffing characters make more sense if there are other units they can buff as well.
I have both. The Sternguard are more for heavy infantry.
Honestly I'm not sold on Sternguard without Lias at the helm of them. They work great there. With a Rhino they're...good, not bad, but it's a lot of points. Drop Pods are garbage now so no reason to talk about that.
Don't mind slayer, he's the resident X unit is garbage guy. (Tacs, Pods, Bolter Scouts, ect)
Drop pods can be effective up to moderately competitive games provided they are carrying something like Sternguard or two Grav Dev squads that need to get in close, and are too high priority to make it there by Rhino.
They aren't my favorite, but an option for specific cases.
I can also vouch for the Stormtalon and Stormraven, great units. Although the raven might get nerfed in chapter approved.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm not sold on Sternguard without Lias at the helm of them. They work great there. With a Rhino they're...good, not bad, but it's a lot of points. Drop Pods are garbage now so no reason to talk about that.
Sternguard are one of the few units that Drop Pods actually work for. Unfortunately Drop Pods just aren't worth the extra points over a Rhino. They have no mobility and are fragile comparatively. Offensive capacity is better on a Rhino as well.
Perth wrote: Don't mind slayer, he's the resident X unit is garbage guy. (Tacs, Pods, Bolter Scouts, ect)
Drop pods can be effective up to moderately competitive games provided they are carrying something like Sternguard or two Grav Dev squads that need to get in close, and are too high priority to make it there by Rhino.
They aren't my favorite, but an option for specific cases.
I can also vouch for the Stormtalon and Stormraven, great units. Although the raven might get nerfed in chapter approved.
Except Tactical Marines, Bolter Scouts, and Drop Pods are garbage right now. This isn't up for discussion.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm not sold on Sternguard without Lias at the helm of them. They work great there. With a Rhino they're...good, not bad, but it's a lot of points. Drop Pods are garbage now so no reason to talk about that.
Sternguard are one of the few units that Drop Pods actually work for. Unfortunately Drop Pods just aren't worth the extra points over a Rhino. They have no mobility and are fragile comparatively. Offensive capacity is better on a Rhino as well.
Drop Pods add at minimum a 10 point tax on Sternguard and at max 20 points. It isn't worth the cost in its current iteration. Needs to be around the cost of a Rhino or slightly lower.
With Storm of Fire they can do quite a number on transports as well. Mine have even accounted for a couple of Ghost Arks
I forgot to address this.
I haven't fully committed to making Pedro my Warlord(the CF trait BLOWS GOATS). The Power Fist Captain would more than likely have Storm of Fire though if he is my Warlord. It'll be good for both the Sternguard and Intercessors (whichever he ends up closer to).
I've been running 75-150 points worth of Scout bikers lately and they never fail to impress. 18' base movement and 6 shots at 12' is just sooo freakin good sometimes.
Except Tactical Marines, Bolter Scouts, and Drop Pods are garbage right now. This isn't up for discussion.
Your deciding what can and can't be discussed on this forum marks you as one of the great men of our age and I salute you. Have an exalt!
tpogs wrote: I've been running 75-150 points worth of Scout bikers lately and they never fail to impress. 18' base movement and 6 shots at 12' is just sooo freakin good sometimes.
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Vanilla, I tried running them with a thunderhammer for a bit. Mostly because it amuses me but it wasn't really worth the points. Also, keep in mind my local meta has a lot of IG, Nids, DG running Poxwalkers, and SM so I have a lot of good targets to both dakka and tie up with t5. They've also been great sacrificial objective grabbers and/or takers because of the 24" movement with turbo boost or whatever it's called. I like keeping them in squads of three so I can hide them easily.
I mean, they're 75 points for 18 s4 shots, 7cc attacks, 18' movement, 6 wounds, and t5. What's not to love. There are definitely more efficient things in the codex (Razorbacks) but the Scouts have been consistently good and fun picks in friendly games for me.
General Helstrom wrote: Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Sorry, I have no recent experience with these guys. Last time I ran any was in 4th or 5h. A little slower than the scouts but they can be kitted out to be more killy and or of course a bit more durable with their 3+. Funnily enough they're worse in CC because they lack the Scout bikers CC weapons. But Alas, they also cost a lost more once you buy those special weapons and in this edition I'd rather spend those points on Devs or another unit that I can huddle around my Chapter Master and Lieutenant.
I really want to see my speeders drop like 10pts, there's just no point taking them over Scout Bikes or a Stormtalon right now.
That would be nice. I'd also settle for power of the machine spirit or something similar. I have 2 or 3 typhoons that I just can't justify running, but a lot of that has to do with how overcosted missile launchers are.
Except Tactical Marines, Bolter Scouts, and Drop Pods are garbage right now. This isn't up for discussion.
Your deciding what can and can't be discussed on this forum marks you as one of the great men of our age and I salute you. Have an exalt!
tpogs wrote: I've been running 75-150 points worth of Scout bikers lately and they never fail to impress. 18' base movement and 6 shots at 12' is just sooo freakin good sometimes.
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Right now we need to be coming up with strategies on the best ways to deal with Guard, and talking about garbage units isn't the way to do it. It isn't up for discussion because theres no results to make any of those units worth talking about again. Not like they were worth talking about in the first place. Now if a few people placed in the top 20 with Drop Pods it would be worth talking about. That hasn't happened.
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Vanilla, I tried running them with a thunderhammer for a bit. Mostly because it amuses me but it wasn't really worth the points. Also, keep in mind my local meta has a lot of IG, Nids, DG running Poxwalkers, and SM so I have a lot of good targets to both dakka and tie up with t5. They've also been great sacrificial objective grabbers and/or takers because of the 24" movement with turbo boost or whatever it's called. I like keeping them in squads of three so I can hide them easily.
I mean, they're 75 points for 18 s4 shots, 7cc attacks, 18' movement, 6 wounds, and t5. What's not to love. There are definitely more efficient things in the codex (Razorbacks) but the Scouts have been consistently good and fun picks in friendly games for me.
General Helstrom wrote: Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Sorry, I have no recent experience with these guys. Last time I ran any was in 4th or 5h. A little slower than the scouts but they can be kitted out to be more killy and or of course a bit more durable with their 3+. Funnily enough they're worse in CC because they lack the Scout bikers CC weapons. But Alas, they also cost a lost more once you buy those special weapons and in this edition I'd rather spend those points on Devs or another unit that I can huddle around my Chapter Master and Lieutenant.
Well Bikers can take Chainswords, and with melee buffers like Tyberos, Khan, and Helbrecht it's better than the Bolt Pistols. Plus you don't get Bolt Pistol shots with the better weapons anyway so why wouldn't you switch?
Right now we need to be coming up with strategies on the best ways to deal with Guard, and talking about garbage units isn't the way to do it. It isn't up for discussion because theres no results to make any of those units worth talking about again. Not like they were worth talking about in the first place. Now if a few people placed in the top 20 with Drop Pods it would be worth talking about. That hasn't happened.
Good thing we have you to decide that for us. Otherwise this thread might be about all kinds of tactics! Your leadership is inspirational, sir. Inspirational.
Vanilla, I tried running them with a thunderhammer for a bit. Mostly because it amuses me but it wasn't really worth the points. Also, keep in mind my local meta has a lot of IG, Nids, DG running Poxwalkers, and SM so I have a lot of good targets to both dakka and tie up with t5. They've also been great sacrificial objective grabbers and/or takers because of the 24" movement with turbo boost or whatever it's called. I like keeping them in squads of three so I can hide them easily.
Ha, I can see the amusement value in a thunder hammer wielding scout biker! I can also see it not being very effective though
I like the idea of a barebones squad, maybe with a storm bolter like Flood suggested because that is one of the best ways to spend 2 points in the game ever. Cheap and really fast and versatile. Excellent way to take down flights of Tau drones too I think.
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Tarantula Sentry Guns are FA aswell...
A Twin Heavy Bolter Tarantula is 27pts, so 81pts for filling your FA needs in a Brigade
The Twin Assault Cannon Tarantula is 45pts and doesnt have any targeting restrictions, though it is probably limited by the 24" range on a immobile plattform
That's interesting, I have a hard time finding any use for my Fast Attack slots but I haven't tried scout bikers yet. How do you run them?
Also, any ideas on regular bikers? I have a squad of three gathering dust in the paint queue and it doesn't look like they'll be seeing any use soon :(
Tarantula Sentry Guns are FA aswell...
A Twin Heavy Bolter Tarantula is 27pts, so 81pts for filling your FA needs in a Brigade
The Twin Assault Cannon Tarantula is 45pts and doesnt have any targeting restrictions, though it is probably limited by the 24" range on a immobile plattform
Yeah the Assault Cannon has a superb statline, but the range kills it for me. I'm sticking with the Heavy Bolter one for now.
Which really does merit discussion. Guard is coming out, and really to prepare for tournaments we have several armies to be wary of. Guard with their meat shields are gonna be tough, because we can't get the real damage dealers through that aren't Devastators or Predators. Now, while a little expensive for the job, Tarantula Turrets can provide a wall against Deep Strike attacks and typically have good weapons against those, assuming they live.
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
What are people's thoughts on using a few Forgeworld Tanks?
I have a Vindicator Laser Destroyer, a Sicaran, and am about to get a turret for the Sicaran Punisher. (I have a friend who has his first turret messed up, so FW replaced it, I'm getting the spare and going to TLC-it-up to useability.)
It seems like the Vindicator Laser Destroyer is a good alternative to a Predator. Either getting 4 Lascannon shots with reliable damage (3 Damage, instead of D6) or getting 2 supercharged shots that ignore pretty much any armor save and do 6 damage a pop, with Vindicator-level durability (So T8 and an extra wound over Predators,) and it's slightly cheaper than a quad-Lascannon Predator.
However, I'm struggling to find a good role for either Sicaran. The regular version, with its autocannon, is... Alright, I guess, and can provide some AA, but the Rending mechanic isn't enough to make it really good at piercing armor, and considering how expensive it is, I'm inclined to just bring two Rifleman Dreads rather than bringing one of these. (Twice the shots, more wounds, all you really lose is the rending mechanic and minor AA ability.)
Similarly, the Punisher is... Actually not terrible when looking at pure Space Marines, all things considered, but since it gives itself an inbuilt "Re-roll 1's to hit" buff, it's not going to benefit from a nearby Captain, so it benefits less from being in a gunline.
Unfortunately, it competes in its role with a Leman Russ Punisher, which is just... Way, WAY better. Punisher Pask is slightly cheaper than a Sicaran Punisher, gets more than TWICE as many hits (There's no AP-1, but who gives a crap when you're getting twice as many hits,) is equally durable, and can also buff two other nearby tanks. So if you're taking a Sicaran Punisher, you are way, WAY overcharging compared to what allies could do.
Waaaghpower wrote: What are people's thoughts on using a few Forgeworld Tanks?
I have a Vindicator Laser Destroyer, a Sicaran, and am about to get a turret for the Sicaran Punisher. (I have a friend who has his first turret messed up, so FW replaced it, I'm getting the spare and going to TLC-it-up to useability.)
It seems like the Vindicator Laser Destroyer is a good alternative to a Predator. Either getting 4 Lascannon shots with reliable damage (3 Damage, instead of D6) or getting 2 supercharged shots that ignore pretty much any armor save and do 6 damage a pop, with Vindicator-level durability (So T8 and an extra wound over Predators,) and it's slightly cheaper than a quad-Lascannon Predator.
However, I'm struggling to find a good role for either Sicaran. The regular version, with its autocannon, is... Alright, I guess, and can provide some AA, but the Rending mechanic isn't enough to make it really good at piercing armor, and considering how expensive it is, I'm inclined to just bring two Rifleman Dreads rather than bringing one of these. (Twice the shots, more wounds, all you really lose is the rending mechanic and minor AA ability.)
Similarly, the Punisher is... Actually not terrible when looking at pure Space Marines, all things considered, but since it gives itself an inbuilt "Re-roll 1's to hit" buff, it's not going to benefit from a nearby Captain, so it benefits less from being in a gunline.
Unfortunately, it competes in its role with a Leman Russ Punisher, which is just... Way, WAY better. Punisher Pask is slightly cheaper than a Sicaran Punisher, gets more than TWICE as many hits (There's no AP-1, but who gives a crap when you're getting twice as many hits,) is equally durable, and can also buff two other nearby tanks. So if you're taking a Sicaran Punisher, you are way, WAY overcharging compared to what allies could do.
The real question is what elite choices are you going to take alongside those relics? There aren't many good options unless you're willing to venture into the land of Apothecaries, Company Ancients, Techmarine Servitors, or maybe Imperium Assassins.
The Sicaran is nice for sure tho, but you can come close to replicating its firepower with Lascannon Predator + Razorback.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.
The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.
The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.
Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.
The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.
Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.
That's a perfectly reasonable line of thought. Just mostly listing why someone would use the Devastators. Don't forget the nice Signum and Cherub too.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.
The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.
Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.
I am on similar page. My Devastators are always got shot by 10 Storn bolters from 5 Rhinos before they ever get to fire a shot, and more often than not I lost at least 2 from that 6-7 wounds even they are in terrain having. Also, if they get charged by things like Nurglings, they fall back and can only hit on 5+ rerolling 1s and 2s
So I am now considering spam Hellblasters and Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and run them near Guiliman, then take a 4 Lascannon Predator and put Telion on it, finally the Hellblasters will be carrired by the dakkadakka Repulsor so they can have better chances to get into 15 inch range. With this built, The only thing I have that would fear being silenced by charged is the Predator.
A side note, I also somehow prefer comtemptor dread than assault cannon razorback. Sure it has less firepower and 65% more expensive, but it has better BS so no hurt that bad by moving and 1 more Str, it also have Chapter Tactics, very strong in combat while the Razorback is as good as dead if being charged by anything.
What do you guys think?
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.
The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.
Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.
I am on similar page. My Devastators are always got shot by 10 Storn bolters from 5 Rhinos before they ever get to fire a shot, and more often than not I lost at least 2 from that 6-7 wounds even they are in terrain having. Also, if they get charged by things like Nurglings, they fall back and can only hit on 5+ rerolling 1s and 2s
So I am now considering spam Hellblasters and Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and run them near Guiliman, then take a 4 Lascannon Predator and put Telion on it, finally the Hellblasters will be carrired by the dakkadakka Repulsor so they can have better chances to get into 15 inch range. With this built, The only thing I have that would fear being silenced by charged is the Predator.
A side note, I also somehow prefer comtemptor dread than assault cannon razorback. Sure it has less firepower and 65% more expensive, but it has better BS so no hurt that bad by moving and 1 more Str, it also have Chapter Tactics, very strong in combat while the Razorback is as good as dead if being charged by anything.
What do you guys think?
I think that the unit you are looking for is the Contemptor Mortis dreadnought. It's slightly more expensive than a regular Contemptor (7pts more), but gets to take two Kheres Assault Cannons instead of just one, meaning it has the same firepower as the Razorback. Otherwise, it's effectively identical in most ways and has all the benefits you listed. (Oh, and it can take a Cyclone Missile Launcher, if you want.)
Alternatively, a regular Mortis Dreadnought with two plain Assault Cannons - Only 17pts more than the Razorback, same firepower, no diminishing damage chart. (Though 2w fewer making it slightly more fragile.) Benefits from Chapter Tactics, like all other dreads.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
I was quite fond of my lascannon Devastators when 8th came out, but they've been more and more sidelined in favor of lascannon Predators. My current firebase consists of two lacannon Predators and a rifleman Venerable Dreadnought, buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant.
The reason the Devastators fell out of favor is their vulnerability. As a 5-man unit they are susceptible to both anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons due to the low model count, making it easy to reduce the squad's effectiveness. You can take additional Marines to compensate but that just drives up the cost. They do have their advantages though - the Signum and Cherub synergise really well for two first-turn shots at BS2+, they are easier to deploy in heavy terrain and they are far more capable of exploiting cover for a 2+ armor save.
I believe the important part is really in what the rest of your army looks like. What sorts of threats do you add to force the opponent to choose a target? If the opponent focuses fire, he should easily be able to take down a Predator/Dev Squad per turn and quickly dismantle your firebase. So what else are you threatening him with? If the maneuver part of your army is mostly vehicles/mechanized, maybe it would be smart to have a vehicle-heavy firebase as well. This forces the opponent to choose where to apply his (limited) anti-tank firepower. On the other hand, if you are mostly drop-podding or teleporting in infantry, an infantry-based firebase would strain the opponent's anti-personnel capacity. With the caveat that small squads of Devastators are still a good target for anti-tank weapons...
My firebase usually consists of some combination of 2 assault cannon Razorbacks, a Lascannon Razorback, 2 Predators, 2 Contemptors, or 2 Venerable Dreads with TL Lascannon and ML or TLAC. Buffed by a Raven Guard Chapter Master and Lt.
Sometimes supported by a couple of Stormtalons or a Knight.
I've been leaning towards Ven Dreads over Predators as the CT bonus is nice, but I think if I played UM the Predators would win out for being more efficient Lascannon platform.
Crazyterran wrote: If you are the playing Ultramarines the way you get an enemy to not charge your razorback(s) is to have Guilliman nearby.
Chronus leading a trio of Predators is My choice for anti tank. Chronus takes up a HQ slot and whatever his ride takes up, so go team!
I will be very very pleased if the thing charging into Razorback is Daemon Princes, Bloodthirster, Carnifex, Swarmlord, etc., Guiliman will finish most MC he encoutered no problem, I am also quite confident he can 1 VS 2 Daemon Princes which is roughly the same total points as him, and win easily in combat when he get to counter charged in.
However, in reality, the thing charged into razorbacks will be 3-4 units of 9 Nurglings, and maybe 3-4 Rhinos as well. They charged and silenced the Razorbacks while shielding the winged MCs at their back. For these tarpits, if Guiliman counter charged in, the opponent will firmly have the inititive at hand because now his MCs are free to finish off everything else the Ulramarine have.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
I was quite fond of my lascannon Devastators when 8th came out, but they've been more and more sidelined in favor of lascannon Predators. My current firebase consists of two lacannon Predators and a rifleman Venerable Dreadnought, buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant.
The reason the Devastators fell out of favor is their vulnerability. As a 5-man unit they are susceptible to both anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons due to the low model count, making it easy to reduce the squad's effectiveness. You can take additional Marines to compensate but that just drives up the cost. They do have their advantages though - the Signum and Cherub synergise really well for two first-turn shots at BS2+, they are easier to deploy in heavy terrain and they are far more capable of exploiting cover for a 2+ armor save.
I believe the important part is really in what the rest of your army looks like. What sorts of threats do you add to force the opponent to choose a target? If the opponent focuses fire, he should easily be able to take down a Predator/Dev Squad per turn and quickly dismantle your firebase. So what else are you threatening him with? If the maneuver part of your army is mostly vehicles/mechanized, maybe it would be smart to have a vehicle-heavy firebase as well. This forces the opponent to choose where to apply his (limited) anti-tank firepower. On the other hand, if you are mostly drop-podding or teleporting in infantry, an infantry-based firebase would strain the opponent's anti-personnel capacity. With the caveat that small squads of Devastators are still a good target for anti-tank weapons...
I think that last part is really the key to the equation. I'm running Devastators, usually two big squads (right now one 8 and one 10), and I love em. But I use them in an army where the only vehicles are Pods and a Rhino with a bunch of infantry otherwise. If I chose a predator (or two) for my Lascannons, every AT gun in my opponents army would just remove it. While a 10 man squad in cover will usually take more effort to begin degrading their firepower.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.
The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.
Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.
It's the alpha. You have them in the RBs, jump them out and unload turn one. It was better when less drops gave you first turn auto. It's a little less good now. But 4 lascannon devs are 165 points verse 190
Speaking of stuff that may be included in a gunline: Has anyone tried Rapier Carriers with Quad Launchers? The short range on the anti-tank fire seems like a problem, but it's a really cheap source of good volume of attacks, and the anti-infantry fire is... Not great, but at least better than the anti-infantry option on a regular Missile Launcher.
Plus, it's only 85pts, so compared to... Say, taking 4 Missile Launchers on a group of Devestators (which has about equivalent durability,) you're nearly half the cost. Seems worth the lack of range to me.
Radikus wrote: When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..
Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.
The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?
I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.
The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.
Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.
It's the alpha. You have them in the RBs, jump them out and unload turn one. It was better when less drops gave you first turn auto. It's a little less good now. But 4 lascannon devs are 165 points verse 190
Yeah i've toyed with that as well. I don't think it's bad or anything, but it does mean less tanks and more of a tank / infantry split throughout the course of the game. So i tend to go heavy tank with Roboute and heavy infantry with RG / Raptors and so on.
Alright, while we're talking about Preds I gotta bring up the Predator Autocannon. I know, that the Twin lascannon is supposed to mathematically be the better choice but in my local meta the Autocannon really sings VS certain T7 and below units. Dark Eldar transports being a prime example.
I know it's not a popular pick but damn they've done some work for me.
The predator autocannon really shines against Tyranids. Their T6 monsters really take a beating from the consistent 3 damage, and both the lascannon and autocannon wound on 3s against them. Plus; the invulnerables on the HQs negate more of the lascannon benefits. I suppose nids are a best case scenario for the autocannon, since it’s basically worse against everything T7 and above.
I'd like the Autocannon a whole heckuva lot more if it were 4 shots instead of 2d3. I'm really unsure why they decided to randomize it, either - It's not a weapon that has ever had anything to do with blasts, and it's the only weapon of its variety that seems to have gotten that change.
Waaaghpower wrote: I'd like the Autocannon a whole heckuva lot more if it were 4 shots instead of 2d3. I'm really unsure why they decided to randomize it, either - It's not a weapon that has ever had anything to do with blasts, and it's the only weapon of its variety that seems to have gotten that change.
The average is 4 shots with the 2d3 so I don't think it matters so much. Sometimes you'll have 6 shots and sometimes 2. That's why we calculate the odds though, right?
Waaaghpower wrote: I'd like the Autocannon a whole heckuva lot more if it were 4 shots instead of 2d3. I'm really unsure why they decided to randomize it, either - It's not a weapon that has ever had anything to do with blasts, and it's the only weapon of its variety that seems to have gotten that change.
The average is 4 shots with the 2d3 so I don't think it matters so much. Sometimes you'll have 6 shots and sometimes 2. That's why we calculate the odds though, right?
Yes, but that's not my point. I'd take average reliability over occasional spikes and dips in difficulty any day, at least when I'm playing my marines. (If I want randomness, well... That's why I play Orks, and it's why I own a Shokk Attack Gun or four.)
Different question: assault units! I have a box of Vanguard Veterans and a box of Assault Terminators coming in today and I'm still wondering exactly how to build them.
For the Terminators I'm inclined to go full TH/SS. This gives them a clear purpose of pulping big, threatening things and makes them really good at it (with a Chaplain nearby).
For the Vanguards I'm thinking jump packs, three Thunder Hammers (one on the sergeant) and two Storm Shields with Chainswords as affordable 3+ invuln ablative wounds.
I may be missing out on something by not bringing lightning claws. I can see the appeal of an extra attack and re-rolling wounds, but the low damage output seems to limit them to mincing infantry squads and I have plenty of other ways to deal with those. I feel assault units are really useful for taking out heavy hitters like C'Tan or Stormsurges that resist ranged options.
General Helstrom wrote: Different question: assault units! I have a box of Vanguard Veterans and a box of Assault Terminators coming in today and I'm still wondering exactly how to build them.
For the Terminators I'm inclined to go full TH/SS. This gives them a clear purpose of pulping big, threatening things and makes them really good at it (with a Chaplain nearby).
For the Vanguards I'm thinking jump packs, three Thunder Hammers (one on the sergeant) and two Storm Shields with Chainswords as affordable 3+ invuln ablative wounds.
I may be missing out on something by not bringing lightning claws. I can see the appeal of an extra attack and re-rolling wounds, but the low damage output seems to limit them to mincing infantry squads and I have plenty of other ways to deal with those. I feel assault units are really useful for taking out heavy hitters like C'Tan or Stormsurges that resist ranged options.
Thoughts?
I have tried five assault termies in a Stormraven and found that full TH+SS is terrible if the opponent can screen your termies with any form of 1W infantry. A regular AM infantry squad will only take ~5 casualties from your charge. One or two models with TLC gives you versatility, a slight discount and isn't a big problem in terms of overall durability. You can (to some degree) direct AP0/-1 damage to the TLC models and AP-2 or higher to the TH+SS models.
I have two autocannon preds, and they do wonder.
But recently I played against a lot of invu saves so...
I really enjoy having several shots, and you can always reroll them to have even more using a cp.
But they clearly lack firepower against armoured vehicles.
godardc wrote: I have two autocannon preds, and they do wonder.
But recently I played against a lot of invu saves so...
I really enjoy having several shots, and you can always reroll them to have even more using a cp.
But they clearly lack firepower against armoured vehicles.
Don't get me wrong. I love the predator autocannon but that just seems like a waste of CP.
I haven't been able to post for a couple weeks with the hurricane that hit down here, so if I bring up some other things we have mov d on from I apologize; just wanted to chime in.
Scouts vs Tacs vs Intercessors: I usually run a single squad, maybe two, of Intercessors and the rest scouts. I do this because I usually run a mobile Gunline. I start up a ways, retreat till I have won the initiative and then reverse and march up the field. What this does is give me a more durable front line that I am not upset if they are lost. Granted in my meta there are a lot of close ranged armies so that may have something to do with it. Tacs I only take when I don't have enough of a need to screen with scouts or Intercessors, so I use them to fill Razorbacks because I need three troops. Almost always either plasma/combi-plasma or Grav-cannon/combo-plasma. I also run my scouts as shotguns. Snipers I feel are only decent if you are willing to take 10+, and then they can be a good tool to force your opponent into certain positions and punish them if they don't comply.
Dreads vs Preds: I prefer Mortis Contemptors with 2 twin Lascannons over predators. Otherwise I like normal Contemptors from the codex with the Kheres and will run 2 as a good counter charge unit. Predators I do tend to favor the AC, but I always have enough Lascannons elsewhere because there are things the AC can't handle efficiently (unless you have 3 with the stratagem).
Infantry vs Armor: I tend to specialize in one or the other. Usually this is toward the infantry spectrum. This makes Devastators useful for me, but even so I will usually still take a Contemptor or maybe a couple rhino chassis vehicles. I do this to pull anti tank weapons from my Hellblasters and Centurions, and it usually wo is well. A good balanced army is more and mo e becoming a thing of the past I think. We really are in a situation so far this edition where being able to take anything is almost impossible, so being able to overload your opponent in a single area tends to win games. This being the case I like using a one two. Strong fire base with fast elements to hit th when I pull them out of position. If I am going vehicle based then this is dreads/Preds as a fire base with speeders and fliers as the fast moving to element. If I am using infant then I use devastators/Hellblasters/centurions as the fire base and deep strike terminators or Vanguard Vets as the quick element. The more often you can make your opponent play your game the better.
Most of my opinions are screwed of course, I play Raptors with RG tactics and Crimson Fists, so a lot of my strategies are VoLTE around that. Added durability with great deployment options in he former case, and good infantry fire base support with access to heavy hitting melee in the latter. Sternguard in particular are a vital part of my strategies b cause of their versatility. I always also have either Hellblasters or Centurions, so the rhino Primaris is good regardless, and the Sternguard bomb for IF/CF isn't all that hard to pull off, because Sternguard aren't generally seen as being as threatening as other choices.
General Helstrom wrote: Different question: assault units! I have a box of Vanguard Veterans and a box of Assault Terminators coming in today and I'm still wondering exactly how to build them.
For the Terminators I'm inclined to go full TH/SS. This gives them a clear purpose of pulping big, threatening things and makes them really good at it (with a Chaplain nearby).
For the Vanguards I'm thinking jump packs, three Thunder Hammers (one on the sergeant) and two Storm Shields with Chainswords as affordable 3+ invuln ablative wounds.
I may be missing out on something by not bringing lightning claws. I can see the appeal of an extra attack and re-rolling wounds, but the low damage output seems to limit them to mincing infantry squads and I have plenty of other ways to deal with those. I feel assault units are really useful for taking out heavy hitters like C'Tan or Stormsurges that resist ranged options.
Thoughts?
I have tried five assault termies in a Stormraven and found that full TH+SS is terrible if the opponent can screen your termies with any form of 1W infantry. A regular AM infantry squad will only take ~5 casualties from your charge. One or two models with TLC gives you versatility, a slight discount and isn't a big problem in terms of overall durability. You can (to some degree) direct AP0/-1 damage to the TLC models and AP-2 or higher to the TH+SS models.
While true, mix-matching is a terrible idea. Always focus on one goal. If you want bigger targets dead, go straight for all TH. If you want to kill screens, LC all the way.
That said, I think you can get away with LC on the Sergeant as he will have 4 attacks total. Not too shabby for a mere sergeant.
I'm also not a huge fan of mixing CC weapons, you don't really have the same flexibility as mixed shooting as almost always the squad is attacking the same target.
It won't really break the squad though, so if you need some extra points, go ahead and swap one or two to LCs.
If anyone should keep a hammer though, it's the Sergeant. An extra hammer swing is way more useful than an extra Claw swing.
I found contemptor more expensive and a bit less resilient than venerable dreads to be used in a gunline.
If I paid for this M9, I would use them more as assault dreads.
Are the different weapons options worth it (2 twin linked lascannons for example) ?
I think they are worth it, M9 isn't needed but can be helpful. I'm pretty sure the Mortis Contemptor is the only way to get dual shooting options (besides the ML/TLAC on the Ven) on a BS 2+ model with CT.
I've been toying with the idea of a Contemptor/Venerable Raven Guard gunline to not need a Chapter Master and benefit from that sweet -1. I just don't have enough dreads to pull it off, that and Razorbacks are so good, but almost surely going to catch a nerf in CA.
Perth wrote: I think they are worth it, M9 isn't needed but can be helpful. I'm pretty sure the Mortis Contemptor is the only way to get dual shooting options (besides the ML/TLAC on the Ven) on a BS 2+ model with CT.
I've been toying with the idea of a Contemptor/Venerable Raven Guard gunline to not need a Chapter Master and benefit from that sweet -1. I just don't have enough dreads to pull it off, that and Razorbacks are so good, but almost surely going to catch a nerf in CA.
Raven Guard have 2 seperate chapter master options. Shrike may not be great, but he give you chapter master benefits, and if you don't mind running raptors, Lias Issadon goes raven guard, is a chapter master, and it just Raven Guard Plus.
Perth wrote: I think they are worth it, M9 isn't needed but can be helpful. I'm pretty sure the Mortis Contemptor is the only way to get dual shooting options (besides the ML/TLAC on the Ven) on a BS 2+ model with CT.
I've been toying with the idea of a Contemptor/Venerable Raven Guard gunline to not need a Chapter Master and benefit from that sweet -1. I just don't have enough dreads to pull it off, that and Razorbacks are so good, but almost surely going to catch a nerf in CA.
Raven Guard have 2 seperate chapter master options. Shrike may not be great, but he give you chapter master benefits, and if you don't mind running raptors, Lias Issadon goes raven guard, is a chapter master, and it just Raven Guard Plus.
There's also Tyberos for Carcharodons, but that's a different topic.
I know we have options, but both are 100 points more expensive than the base Captain and you'd have to make your Lt the Warlord for Storm of Fire.
I think the list still has 3 Razorbacks and 15 Scouts, but everything else hits on 2+. So is rerolling 2s on 3 Razorbacks worth 3 Command Points or 100+ Points and a more fragile Warlord?
Well, you can then just take the cheaper dreads that don't hit on 2s. I find re-rolling all hits makes them reliable enough. I guess if you like the added durability etc, and you think you'll use the CP on something else worthwhile, then your idea isn't bad.
stratigo wrote: Raven guard have such a good strategem that I get sad people don’t use it and just rely on the minus 1
It is good, but it is inherently better on melee units than it is shooting units, and space marines don't have many good melee units. Other codexes with the same ability but actual melee units (Chaos and Mechanicus) can do it much better.
It's also a bit of a 50/50 on how good it is, based on if you get first turn or not.
stratigo wrote: Raven guard have such a good strategem that I get sad people don’t use it and just rely on the minus 1
It is good, but it is inherently better on melee units than it is shooting units, and space marines don't have many good melee units. Other codexes with the same ability but actual melee units (Chaos and Mechanicus) can do it much better.
It's also a bit of a 50/50 on how good it is, based on if you get first turn or not.
You know if you've got first turn before the units set up though.
With Lias Issadon, it allows you to have a devastating alpha, whether you go first or not. It's something you ca, and likely should, build an army around. It's the other archetype next to the G man gunline that make s acompetetive mono marine list (not as goot as guard, but who is?)
I find that terminators with claws are best as Cataphractii. You don't lose out on much besides mobility, and you get the delicious 4++. I find terminators are generally not used for their mobility past their teleport strike anyways so it's a good trade imho. So for me I use all claws on Cataphractii and TH/SS on my regular terminators.
Strike from the Shadows is amazing, plus you know who goes first before you place them so even if you aren't getting first turn you can usually still deploy them advantageously. I think the stratagem is best used on things that can't otherwise deep strike, like Assault Centurions or aggressors, but it is also good for things that can deepstrike since that gives even more versatility. Special mention for vanguard that then may be able to jump over the screen to hit units behind them. Also, being able to get good firing positions for sub 48" weapons is good too. Looking at you Grav-cannons and Multi-meltas.
stratigo wrote: Raven guard have such a good strategem that I get sad people don’t use it and just rely on the minus 1
It is good, but it is inherently better on melee units than it is shooting units, and space marines don't have many good melee units. Other codexes with the same ability but actual melee units (Chaos and Mechanicus) can do it much better.
It's also a bit of a 50/50 on how good it is, based on if you get first turn or not.
You know if you've got first turn before the units set up though.
With Lias Issadon, it allows you to have a devastating alpha, whether you go first or not. It's something you ca, and likely should, build an army around. It's the other archetype next to the G man gunline that make s acompetetive mono marine list (not as goot as guard, but who is?)
Sure, you know before you set them up, but going first is way more effective than going second, so much so that going second can mean you wasted a CP and the usefulness of the unit you wanted to be close to the enemy drops significantly.
Building an army around the ravenguard strat means relying on the first turn more than is generally a good idea. This is exacerbated by the fact that most ravenguard armies have a lot of drops, meaning you get first turn a lot less than otherwise.
Of course Lias is a good way to build an army, since it doesn't rely on the first turn.
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Captain Garius wrote: I find that terminators with claws are best as Cataphractii. You don't lose out on much besides mobility, and you get the delicious 4++. I find terminators are generally not used for their mobility past their teleport strike anyways so it's a good trade imho. So for me I use all claws on Cataphractii and TH/SS on my regular terminators.
Strike from the Shadows is amazing, plus you know who goes first before you place them so even if you aren't getting first turn you can usually still deploy them advantageously. I think the stratagem is best used on things that can't otherwise deep strike, like Assault Centurions or aggressors, but it is also good for things that can deepstrike since that gives even more versatility. Special mention for vanguard that then may be able to jump over the screen to hit units behind them. Also, being able to get good firing positions for sub 48" weapons is good too. Looking at you Grav-cannons and Multi-meltas.
To me it seems like "advantageously" here means "out of line of site" at best, and "somewhere in cover" at worst. If the unit is threatening, like a grav dev squad, it is likely to be on the receiving end of a lot of enemy fire power the next turn, unless you can hide it completely, in which case the enemy can move away from it if it is an assault unit, potentially get out of range if it is a shooting unit, and like force it to move with heavy weapons if it does survive the next turn.
I'm not saying it's bad by any means, but i haven't seen a lot of units that maintain their effectiveness if they go second, so i don't think it's worth planning an army around.
I do think there might be something to the idea of making a RG brigade to have a lot of CP, and use the strat as a deployment method to let you deploy large numbers of units wherever you want, but haven't seen any version of it that is particularly convincing.
I run a Blood Ravens gunline with Gabriel Angelos, a Lieutenant, and your typical SM shooty units. I would love to throw in a Librarian (who I have proudly painted as Jonah Orion) for fluff reasons but they never seem to do much for me. Sure sometimes they get off a good Deny The Witch but typically the armies I come up against either don't have psykers or they have 3+. Null zone is badass but it's only 6" and I haven't found it super useful in shooty lists so far, am I just using it wrong?
Do any of you run Librarians in gunlines? Do you find them worth the 115 points or so? If you do rate them, what powers do you typically take? Force axe or Force Stave? Mustard or Mayo?
Not much to sell on though. Buy one for some powers you might want. You're Blood Angels so buy two. What does the rest of the list look like?
Nah, Blood Ravens are Codex adherent (allegedly.)
I'm running a fairly typical mobile gunline. AC Razorbacks. Scouts for screening. Preds or Devs. A few Dreads. And maybe a Stormtalon or two. RG or UM CT's typically. Might run some Salamander CT's if I ever start running tact squads again.
I love libs. Had a game a few weeks ago where near the end of the game my opponents Hive Tyrant was moving towards my remaining tactical marines and I had a lib in position to intercept and try and block. My opponent was ignoring my lib because it hadn't done much all game, just blocked a few casts of "the horror". Then I rolled an 11 on smite and did 4 mortal wounds to it. Didn't kill it but brought it down to 2 wounds. It was one of those " You will not ignore me!" Moments. Opponent actually stopped moving towards the tacticals and went the other direction back at my lib because suddenly he could not afford that to happen again.
Since then I always try to take one, if for nothing else but support. Also a lib can make a seriously powerful captain beat stick. Salamander Captain on a bike with salamanders mantel and might of hero's and psychic defense (the one that gives a 4+ save vs mortal wounds) makes for a tough charecter. 3+/4++ toughness 7 str 7 (I give him a relic blade) 5 attacks, it's not a deamon prince but it can go toe to toe with a hive tyrant and has a great chance to come out the other side alive.
Azuza001 wrote: I love libs. Had a game a few weeks ago where near the end of the game my opponents Hive Tyrant was moving towards my remaining tactical marines and I had a lib in position to intercept and try and block. My opponent was ignoring my lib because it hadn't done much all game, just blocked a few casts of "the horror". Then I rolled an 11 on smite and did 4 mortal wounds to it. Didn't kill it but brought it down to 2 wounds. It was one of those " You will not ignore me!" Moments. Opponent actually stopped moving towards the tacticals and went the other direction back at my lib because suddenly he could not afford that to happen again.
Since then I always try to take one, if for nothing else but support. Also a lib can make a seriously powerful captain beat stick. Salamander Captain on a bike with salamanders mantel and might of hero's and psychic defense (the one that gives a 4+ save vs mortal wounds) makes for a tough charecter. 3+/4++ toughness 7 str 7 (I give him a relic blade) 5 attacks, it's not a deamon prince but it can go toe to toe with a hive tyrant and has a great chance to come out the other side alive.
Speaking of that, how does Might of Heroes interact with x2 str weapons?
What is the general consensus on troops in Salamander armies at the moment (or just marines in general)? I've been doing a lot of testing with 3 melta tactical squads in drop pods and it's never quite worked well enough to justify 250 points each. With ground transports they always take a little too long to be effective.
Intercessors have always been pretty mediocre for me and I have no personal experience with scouts.
I've seen a few people say salamanders troops are superior to other chapters and worth taking but I haven't seen enough out of them to justify them in a competitive sense (although I love to see lots of marines on the table in casual games). What are your thoughts?
I run a minimum of 3 tactical marine 5 man squads with a heavy weapon in my Salamanders army. They are my "bubble wrap" around devastators / whirlwinds / predators. Normally I have been taking them with missile launchers but last time I took plasma cannons and it worked well. The more chances you get to use the chapter tactic the better off you will be is my theory, and even if your moving your still probably going to hit with that one heavy weapon.
Also because of the tactic you don't need to have a leutinant or captain near them so they can function on their own.
I only recently joined up, so forgive me if this was already covered.
Any suggestions for going up against a smite spam army? My BT's ran up against a horde of Tzeentch demons that included a Demon Prince, and a couple other Psykers. It was only a 750pt game, and the other player got some really good rolls on their first round of smites, so it was hard for me to get back on an even footing. I have seen a few posts that mentioned just putting enough troops out front of protect your higher value units, but are there other options? Since BT can't field Psykers, my options are limited.
In the handful of games I have played the past two months I have noticed that my Ironclad is doing some serious work. I run it with the assault launchers, Hurricane & CF/SB combo. Great for melting 1w units, and that CF can do some serious damage if anything gets into CC.
TMTMTPoS wrote: What is the general consensus on troops in Salamander armies at the moment (or just marines in general)? I've been doing a lot of testing with 3 melta tactical squads in drop pods and it's never quite worked well enough to justify 250 points each. With ground transports they always take a little too long to be effective.
Intercessors have always been pretty mediocre for me and I have no personal experience with scouts.
I've seen a few people say salamanders troops are superior to other chapters and worth taking but I haven't seen enough out of them to justify them in a competitive sense (although I love to see lots of marines on the table in casual games). What are your thoughts?
If running Salamanders I think tactical squads with Lascannons are pretty darn good.
Karthicus wrote: I only recently joined up, so forgive me if this was already covered.
Any suggestions for going up against a smite spam army? My BT's ran up against a horde of Tzeentch demons that included a Demon Prince, and a couple other Psykers. It was only a 750pt game, and the other player got some really good rolls on their first round of smites, so it was hard for me to get back on an even footing. I have seen a few posts that mentioned just putting enough troops out front of protect your higher value units, but are there other options? Since BT can't field Psykers, my options are limited.
In the handful of games I have played the past two months I have noticed that my Ironclad is doing some serious work. I run it with the assault launchers, Hurricane & CF/SB combo. Great for melting 1w units, and that CF can do some serious damage if anything gets into CC.
Smite spam is a tournament list, and Black Templars are not. It's going to be an uphill battle. Hell, even just going up against 3 psykers is uphill for BT. Smite Spam is not something you're going to win against without Guard allies at any points level, templar troops are just simply too expensive.
I used to have the opinion that BT made out pretty well in this codex, but now that a few other codexes have come out since then I feel like we got the weakest chapter trait, warlord trait, and stratagem. This goes for a lot of Marine armies too though, the traits in Admech and Guard are just straight up superior to the majority of Space Marine chapter tactics. Kind of sad IMO. I'll put it to you guys this way, if I see Magnus, Mortarion, Girlyman, Cawl, or Celestine + Guard on the other side of the board I might as well just not play that game with Templars. Especially with Mortarion, I literally cannot think of anything that can possibly to compete with him or take him down in a fashion that doesn't have my entire army shooting at him and maybe taking him down to 1/3rd of his wounds.
I really want to play my templars, been playing my admech stuff lately, and seeing the power level of the last 3 dexes that have come out have just left me rather bitter.
Tactical Marines are still lame even Salamanders buffing their lone Heavy Weapon. Salamander Devastators are a different story, though. Cherub + Signum for days equates dead models!
Sniper Scouts are mildly fun with Salamanders. With a Lieutenant near, you increase your chances even more for mortal wounds if you like gimmicky stuff.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Tactical Marines are still lame even Salamanders buffing their lone Heavy Weapon. Salamander Devastators are a different story, though. Cherub + Signum for days equates dead models!
Sniper Scouts are mildly fun with Salamanders. With a Lieutenant near, you increase your chances even more for mortal wounds if you like gimmicky stuff.
I disagree, I find my tacticals do a great job when ever I use them with my Salamanders. With a single laz cannon or missile launcher you get a small squad that can hold objectives on your side of the board easy, move and still reliabily shoot with their heavy weapon, and are not as "big a target" as a dev squad is but just as effective.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to turn this into another debate about if tacticals suck or not, or whether there are better options, but for what they cost and what they are they do a great job for me. Give them razorbacks with assault cannons and you have a mobile force that can get where they need to be reliably. Out of all chapter tactics I think salamanders works best for these guys if your needed extra heavy fire Support.
Karthicus wrote: I only recently joined up, so forgive me if this was already covered.
Any suggestions for going up against a smite spam army? My BT's ran up against a horde of Tzeentch demons that included a Demon Prince, and a couple other Psykers. It was only a 750pt game, and the other player got some really good rolls on their first round of smites, so it was hard for me to get back on an even footing. I have seen a few posts that mentioned just putting enough troops out front of protect your higher value units, but are there other options? Since BT can't field Psykers, my options are limited.
In the handful of games I have played the past two months I have noticed that my Ironclad is doing some serious work. I run it with the assault launchers, Hurricane & CF/SB combo. Great for melting 1w units, and that CF can do some serious damage if anything gets into CC.
Smite spam is a tournament list, and Black Templars are not. It's going to be an uphill battle. Hell, even just going up against 3 psykers is uphill for BT. Smite Spam is not something you're going to win against without Guard allies at any points level, templar troops are just simply too expensive.
I used to have the opinion that BT made out pretty well in this codex, but now that a few other codexes have come out since then I feel like we got the weakest chapter trait, warlord trait, and stratagem. This goes for a lot of Marine armies too though, the traits in Admech and Guard are just straight up superior to the majority of Space Marine chapter tactics. Kind of sad IMO. I'll put it to you guys this way, if I see Magnus, Mortarion, Girlyman, Cawl, or Celestine + Guard on the other side of the board I might as well just not play that game with Templars. Especially with Mortarion, I literally cannot think of anything that can possibly to compete with him or take him down in a fashion that doesn't have my entire army shooting at him and maybe taking him down to 1/3rd of his wounds.
I really want to play my templars, been playing my admech stuff lately, and seeing the power level of the last 3 dexes that have come out have just left me rather bitter.
I feel like you are dead on with this post, but I want to believe you are wrong. I'm going to give it a few more matches and see how it goes. I think what really hurt was the fact that you can still smite units that are locked in melee. With a horde army you can slow down an enemy unit and spam it into oblivion. Sad day.
Psykers feel very powerful overall. I played another match against some Ynnari last week using his Chaos army (he wanted to play test his two armies) and the Eldar HQ kept the match very close with his constant soul burst, which really felt OP with the Ynnari army special rule. I feel like BT should have gotten a little more to combat Psykers, and I feel their 1cp strat is lacking.
All that being said, while it is an uphill battle I think it's something that can be overcome. I believe it would require some really crafty army lists that have long range horde clearing to quickly remove that bubble around said Psykers, or perhaps a lot of deep strike. I'm currently putting together a box of Revers to give that a go. Depending how they setup, in theory you could split that 10man squad of revers up and possibly get 2 casters locked up round 1? This would really depend on if you go first... but drop within 9". You can move up that 6", toss that shock grenade, get some shots in, charge in and clean up.
Perhaps that would be easy to defend against in the current meta. My lack of action table time might be showing.
Tips: do not bring terminators against your smite spam opponent.
He will just wreck them.
I used tac marines with plasma combi plasma and the scions of Guilliman stratagem and it worked quite well for me, being able to shoot overcharged plasma without any risk
The one game I played vs the smite spam found that a well placed squad of snipers can make them think twice about getting those casters too close. It wouldn't make a difference against the squads who can cast it, but those characters? That same game I had a turn where my snipers dished out 4 hits, with an additional 2 mortal wounds on their Demon Prince.
My BT will find a way to purge the heretic casters....
Hey guys, this is the list I've been running recently playing against a lot of Guard, Nids, and Genestealer. Been wanting to shave something to change Marneus into Guiliman. Any suggestions?
Drop the Vets, Snipers and Calgar to grab Rusty Glitterbomb and a cheap HQ, probably a tech marine. I'll look closer tonight but it seems like the options are pretty limited.
Edit: Okay, looks like you're going to be probably be stuck at one Spearhead detachment, so that eliminates the need for a second HQ. The vets have to go, they are pretty out of place in this list. (+107), that get's you almost there, so let's drop one of the Scout squads(+183) and drop Calgar for Rusty (+23). Now at this point if you drop the Sniper Rifles (which I think most of us have found to be fairly underwhelming) we're almost up to bringing those Scouts back to expand a no-deepstrike bubble around your gunline (+43), dropping the Storm Bolters and HKM from Chronus and the other Predators should put you at exactly (+55), enough to get a Scout squad back in.
Karthicus wrote: The one game I played vs the smite spam found that a well placed squad of snipers can make them think twice about getting those casters too close. It wouldn't make a difference against the squads who can cast it, but those characters? That same game I had a turn where my snipers dished out 4 hits, with an additional 2 mortal wounds on their Demon Prince.
My BT will find a way to purge the heretic casters....
Mostly you just need something between the smites and your good stuff. Scouts and Rhinos seem like the most obvious choices, though most vehicles work pretty well, and the larger the game the more points you have to add padding like that to your lists, with 2k being the sweet spot in my opinion.
What's everyone's experience with Tigurius?
He seems like a flat improvement over a Power Armored Librarian, costing about 30% but knowing an extra power, re-rolling failed test, and (possibly best of all) giving a -1 to hit buff on a nearby unit.
The main problem I see is that Power Armor Librarians aren't very good to begin with, so 'upgrading them' isn't necessarily worth it.
Not much to sell on though. Buy one for some powers you might want. You're Blood Angels so buy two. What does the rest of the list look like?
Nah, Blood Ravens are Codex adherent (allegedly.)
I'm running a fairly typical mobile gunline. AC Razorbacks. Scouts for screening. Preds or Devs. A few Dreads. And maybe a Stormtalon or two. RG or UM CT's typically. Might run some Salamander CT's if I ever start running tact squads again.
I just can't seem to justify a Libby.
So far my Librarian was mostly been useful for his hot rolling of Deny the Witch. But I've gotten a few good buff spells off, and once a double 6 Smite nailed the a daemonprince for only one wound on perils. That was all pre-codex, I haven't used him since I got the book. I got a game coming up this weekend though and I plan on bringing a Primaris Librarian with Might of Heroes and Veil of Time, my plan is to use the Libriarian to buff the crap out of inceptors, then charge em in. Or I'll buff the Dreadnought, but I think I'll get the most bang from my buck on the Inceptors. But the Space Marine psychic spells frankly don't seem that good to me. I'd almost rather just bring an IG detachment with some astropaths.
Seems to me like the only real convincing reasons to take a SM lib are for null zone vs things like primarchs and terminators, and veil of time if you want a unit to reliably deep strike and charge something. Everything else they offer is either underwhelming, or obtainable elsewhere for cheaper.
How is everyone fairing against the new Guard codex? Previously I was bringing a quad las pred and 4 las and 4 missile launchers. Do we think this is enough dakka or should we be brining something to deep strike and attempt to charge the russes?
Sonminiser wrote: How is everyone fairing against the new Guard codex? Previously I was bringing a quad las pred and 4 las and 4 missile launchers. Do we think this is enough dakka or should we be brining something to deep strike and attempt to charge the russes?
I'm honestly not sure how effective that would really be. Assuming there aren't any conscripts in the way, and there probably will be, the russes are also likely to have heavy flamers on them, which are pretty annoying to charge. I think our main strategy is just going to be to try and outshoot the tanks. Ravenguard are pretty hard for guard to shoot at since they mostly hit on 5s, and Roboute lists may be able to kill enough in the first few turns to make it work. I'm not sure there are really any other "good" space marine lists worth talking about.
Sonminiser wrote: How is everyone fairing against the new Guard codex? Previously I was bringing a quad las pred and 4 las and 4 missile launchers. Do we think this is enough dakka or should we be brining something to deep strike and attempt to charge the russes?
Guard have a lot of options, its going to depend on what your opponent is bringing. An intelligent opponent isn't going to let you deepstrike and charge any of his backline stuff. Do you know what styles your opponents play? There's worlds of differences between a balanced infantry company with support units versus a conscripts bubble wrapping super heavy tanks. What works against one won't work against the other.
Its also going to depend on the objectives a lot. Guard make for some great static gunlines, but that doesn't necessarily translate to winning objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jcd386 wrote: Seems to me like the only real convincing reasons to take a SM lib are for null zone vs things like primarchs and terminators, and veil of time if you want a unit to reliably deep strike and charge something. Everything else they offer is either underwhelming, or obtainable elsewhere for cheaper.
Null zone just seems so situational to me. The two buff spells would be useful just about all the time in my experience. I wish Marines got the +1 save one.
I actually think we need to consider Deep Strike Vanguard or LC Terminators to nullify infantry shooting and focus on using Preds at the moment. Just off the top of my head. Won't be playing again until this weekend so hopefully I'll have cooked up something at that point.
Might of Heroes became less appealing after I read that +1 Strength is applied after the x2 strength of fists/hammers etc rather than before. It can still be quite good though.
Bremon wrote: Might of Heroes became less appealing after I read that +1 Strength is applied after the x2 strength of fists/hammers etc rather than before. It can still be quite good though.
That is actually wrong you add strength and then you apply weapon modifier. Might plus hammer = 10. Salamander trait can swing at 12 with might.
It's the first point in the designers commentary. Apply multiply divide and then add subtract to the characteristic and then apply the weapon modifier.
Went second, improperly screened my gunline and he missed his DS charge by 1". I lost a razorback, scouts and a tarantula to shooting. In return I picked up the knight and all the terminators+JP captain. From there it was me slowly grinding forward and wiping him out. Tabled him bottom of four or five.
Spoiler:
Round 2 vs Thousand Sons
KP based on PL
Spoiler:
Roughly;
Magnus
Ahriman
10 tzaangors
8 1k sons with flamers
5 1k sons
2x sorcerers
2x rhinos
2x heldrakes
1x maulerfiend
I deployed all my crusader squads, scouts and razorbacks as best as I could to screen my predators and make it difficult for him to consolidate into my gunline after his first turn charges inevitably wrecked my screen. I used BT stratagem to shut down Magnus invuln buff. He did exactly what I expected. I lost some squads and I think 2 razorbacks, but managed to keep 1 heldrake locked with scouts. My turn I killshot and took down Magnus and a heldrake. JP captain used his BT tactic to make a 8" charge into his locked heldrake and smash it down to half. From there on I adjusted my screen to stop the maulerfiend, and turn 3 or so I dropped vets out to start pounding the rubrics. Moving CM up to support my infantry, the extra 3" was clutch for rerolls on preds. He managed to get a rhino into my backfield but, again, I was able to keep 2 preds shooting almost all the way to the end. Game ended on bottom of 5 with just 3 tzaangors left on the field, hiding behind a building with my CM about to wipe them. Cost me a major victory, unfortunately.
Spoiler:
Third Round vs Chaos soup
6 objectivess with 1x 4pt, 1x 1pt, and 4x 2pt
Board had lots of large LOS blocking terrain. I actually got first turn but magnus was far corner (Vanguard deploy) so I couldn't reach with tanks. Used scouts to deny DS, killed most of 2 horror units, but not much. Changeling and some good saves on his part meant I did not much. He kept berserkers off, but brought in oblits. Used VOTLW and Slaanesh power to double tap one of my preds. I rolled amazingly and survived with 2 wounds. Shut down warptime on the cultists, since Magnus was still out of LOS, though in range. Lost most of my screening units to smite spam. In return I finished two horror squads, got a malefic lord and the oblits. His turn berserkers land, he makes 4/5 charges on 10+ and is just outside my pred flank. Shut down warptime again, since cultists were about 11" from my lines. My turn magnus is front and center, but can't afford to shoot him. Despite killshot, I barely manage to take out kharbydiss. I put two razorbacks, half a pred, all 6 vets, the chapter master into berserkers and kill 4. His saves were on fire. I picked up about 15~20 cultists. I charge berserkers, fail to do anything with first vet squad, he counter attacks and I fail 80% of my saves and lose every single vet. Dice have totally given up on me. I concede since I have no real chance of winning, and am too tired to try to drag another hour and a half into a possible minor loss. Even if the berserkers hand't been blessed by khorne himself, I probably would have lost still. Board had perfect LOS blocking coverage at distances that fit magnus movement and were just at smite range. In hindsight I could have used the auspex scan on a crusader squad vs the oblits, overcharged plasma may have picked one up. Alpha legion on a bunch of his stuff combined with changeling is really rough, even with rerolls. Having 3s just flat miss with no chance to reroll was extremely painful. If he had put berserkers down turn 2 on the far flank I intentionally left open, I may have had a chance. However, he played well, had a favorable matchup, had the 4 pt objective on his side, and the dice put an exclamation point on the match. I think I lose that one 80% of the time. Maybe if it had been 12" deployment with me having first turn I could've dumpstered Magnus out the gate and had a good shot, but, no such luck.
Interesting to think about, an UM player using Guilleman, 3 preds, a fire raptor and a terminus ultra got wiped out by the same list in half the time. I think having the 6 infantry squads as screens and the large number of units in general is very useful, despite giving up the +1 to go first.
Spoiler:
Overall I think this list is very strong. The only army I wasn't confident I could beat was the one I lost to, and the overall winner. Every unit performed as expected. I could see getting to the upper tables at a larger GT, but the list has a massive weakness to smite spam. Hordes could be a problem, depending on the army and what else is with the horde. The strongest things in the list were absolutely the bike chapter master and the preds. I would upgrade chapter master to thunder hammer, and maybe drop bike for JP. The mobility was a factor in every game, and the larger base helps with aura size. Company vets put out lots of dice and ate a 3 damage smite for him as well. The only thing I wished I had more of was scouts, though idk how I'd fit them. The crusaders were used to screen in 2 games, though when they actually got to shoot they were doing good damage. I was considering going heavier on the tarantulas, as enemies who charge them but dont wipe them can still be shot, but have to fall back to move away. The BT helm and strat were pivotal in both of my wins, and key to me staying alive in my last fight. I rerolled something like 3 or 4 charges with the chapter tactic, as well. I used all of my CP in every match.
I ended up in 3rd, the person I beat in round 2 was 2nd place because he had 2 major victories. That stung a bit, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles, I suppose.
Bremon wrote: ...thanks! That puts MoH solidly back into the options list for my Primaris Librarian (which I really didn’t have fun assembling).
I'm thinking of picking him up, what was the issue with assembly? Just proxying a spare LT for him right now.
It wasn’t horrible, and the end result looks great; it’s just a different process than I’m used to (ie; glue legs together, glue torso together, glue legs and torso together, etc.). This was like...glue leg to piece of chest, glue other leg to piece of back, glue two halves together and hope your dryfitting worked out as you expected.
I tend to run a Primaris Librarian. I'm also a bit unclear whether he's required. But you have to take something and he does seem useful. I didn't have any trouble building the kit, I must say. I think it's pretty cool.
The main reason to run a librarian is null zone - which is indeed situational. The thing is, when the situation comes up and you want it, it's fantastic. I had my libby hiding behind a chaplain dread up against GKs recently and they smashed two dreadknights and Draigo.
The difficult thing is that you need an 8 to cast null zone. When needed, it's worth using a CP to up your odds of casting it. It really does make a huge difference when an important enemy model goes from having a 3++ to no save at all.
The rest of the time he does reasonable work casting smite and might of heroes. MoH twins well with null zone and my crimson fist primaris captain with the fist of vengeance (made out of the store birthday kit). It's pretty nice with any hard-hitting melee units, so centurions and aggressors like it too.
He's actually quite badass in his own right as well, and casting might of heroes on himself to turn his power sword S5 turns him into a respectable beatstick for his price.
I don't know if I'd describe the librarian as an auto-take. It works in my army, as I've got a repulsor he can deploy in and I feel like he does a job for me. I'm running a battalion so I need two HQs and he is a decent fit. A lieutenant would be a reasonable alternative - more of a general buff than the situationally massive help that null zone provides - though lieutenants themselves aren't nearly as fighty as librarians.
argonak wrote: Nice reports. You guys don’t use nearly as much terrain as I would expect. We use more smaller pieces.
Hey, so what’s the deal with auto bolt rifles and bolt carbines? Same stat line but bolt carbines are free...
Probably Because different units use them.
True... kind of. They are two units with identical profiles. Reivers with carbines are flat out better than intercessors with auto bolt rifles (stun grenades, better pistols, lame scary hats), and 3 points less per model.
You can argue that the intercessors become better if you buy them an auxiliary grenade launcher and/or power sword, and that as troops they buy you more CPs, but then the reivers have options too.
The end result is that auto bolt rifles are a pretty poor choice for intercessors, but carbines are a decent choice for reivers.
I tend to think that 5 deep striking reivers with carbines and a sword for the sergeant would be a decent unit to bring. Point for point, reivers spit out the same number of shots as inceptors - though with worse ap and strength. But you get three times as many bodies so your survivability and cc killiness is far better. A tough-ish unit that can be dropped on an objective is a useful thing to have, especially in maelstrom missions.
You could even give them grapples and then purposely place objectives in high up places near board edges for them to grab.
I'd say carbines are the preferred loadout for reivers seeing as how lightning claw vanguard vets have 5 more attacks, so on their weapons and rerolls to wound.
But! Move reivers to fast attack and then I'd say they are fine. There's just too much competition for elite slots in my opinion
There's better melee options and better shooting options in the elite slot
fraser1191 wrote: I'd say carbines are the preferred loadout for reivers seeing as how lightning claw vanguard vets have 5 more attacks, so on their weapons and rerolls to wound.
But! Move reivers to fast attack and then I'd say they are fine. There's just too much competition for elite slots in my opinion
There's better melee options and better shooting options in the elite slot
I hear you on the elite competition... kind of. The thing is, you can take a hell of a lot of elite slots pretty easily, so it's hard to run out.
In fact more often I find that having a lot of units from one FO slot is a good thing, as it lets you unlock more CPs. Reivers probably should be fast attack, I agree, but it's not such a bad thing that they aren't.
Anyway I'm not suggesting for a moment that reivers are this awesome unit you should always take. I think they can do a job.
fraser1191 wrote: I'd say carbines are the preferred loadout for reivers seeing as how lightning claw vanguard vets have 5 more attacks, so on their weapons and rerolls to wound. But! Move reivers to fast attack and then I'd say they are fine. There's just too much competition for elite slots in my opinion There's better melee options and better shooting options in the elite slot
I hear you on the elite competition... kind of. The thing is, you can take a hell of a lot of elite slots pretty easily, so it's hard to run out.
In fact more often I find that having a lot of units from one FO slot is a good thing, as it lets you unlock more CPs. Reivers probably should be fast attack, I agree, but it's not such a bad thing that they aren't.
Anyway I'm not suggesting for a moment that reivers are this awesome unit you should always take. I think they can do a job.
I seriously wish they were fast attack so i could actually take a primarus only brigade.
they are an assault marine according to icon as aggressors are actually dev as well.
fraser1191 wrote: I'd say carbines are the preferred loadout for reivers seeing as how lightning claw vanguard vets have 5 more attacks, so on their weapons and rerolls to wound.
But! Move reivers to fast attack and then I'd say they are fine. There's just too much competition for elite slots in my opinion
There's better melee options and better shooting options in the elite slot
I hear you on the elite competition... kind of. The thing is, you can take a hell of a lot of elite slots pretty easily, so it's hard to run out.
In fact more often I find that having a lot of units from one FO slot is a good thing, as it lets you unlock more CPs. Reivers probably should be fast attack, I agree, but it's not such a bad thing that they aren't.
Anyway I'm not suggesting for a moment that reivers are this awesome unit you should always take. I think they can do a job.
I seriously wish they were fast attack so i could actually take a primarus only brigade.
they are an assault marine according to icon as aggressors are actually dev as well.
I hear that. A primaris brigade is a relatively insane proposition, but in general the SM codex is weak in fast attack. The units there aren't great, and there aren't very many of them.
One option would be to do a bunch of converting to stick reivers on bikes, and call them scout bikers. I've stuck primaris guys in the cockpits of my Xiphon and Storm Raven, and put aggressor heads on my assault centurions, to make them fit in visually.
My Xiphon pilot doesn't have any feet, but you can't tell that from the outside - and who needs feet when you have wings?
That's an awesome list Traceoftoxin, I think I'm going to try and build towards something similar. Chapter approved is right around the corner though, so I may wait on buying 2 razorbacks and a bunch of tarantulas because you never know what's going to get nerfed and buffed. I really like the idea behind the list though.
A couple questions, where did you typically deploy your tarantulas? On objectives? Also what weapons did you give your scouts? Bolters? Shotguns?
Here's something I'm thinking about trying out in the near future:
Spoiler:
2k points, Black Templar Double Battalion + Spearhead:
Scouts sit on objectives, one pair of Captain/Lieutenant babysit the artillery, and the other go in the LRC with the plasma and melta squads. Emperor's Champion goes in the Storm Raven with the flamer squad to drop into the enemy deployment zone and say "hey look at me! I'm scary!"
Do people expect TLAC Razorbacks to get nerfed? Or nerfed beyond the TLAC costing 42 instead of 35? I mean, even if it's one of SM's most efficient units, it's not like its THAT uber nor do marines appear to be an overpowered army in need of a nerf.
bort wrote: Do people expect TLAC Razorbacks to get nerfed? Or nerfed beyond the TLAC costing 42 instead of 35? I mean, even if it's one of SM's most efficient units, it's not like its THAT uber nor do marines appear to be an overpowered army in need of a nerf.
I highly doubt it. at least not untill next year if another round of indexs dont come out.
I don't see how they can adjust the price of the TLAC Razorback (which aren't even broken, BTW) without making the other options too expensive. That they are being used as a Battle tank rather than an APC is mostly due to the other battle tanks outside the Quad Las Predator(which is still beaten by two Twin Las Razorbacks) being kinda crap. If they buffed the Vindicator (it should do d6 shots base, 3d3 against 10+) and made the Predator T8, we would be in business. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing the T8 tanks bumped up to a 2+ Sv(Vindicator, Hunter, and Stalker). The Razorback and Rhino can stay at T7 since they were historically lightly armored compared to the Predator and Whirlwind.
Also, Traceoftoxin, put your giant images behind spoilers. They really mess up the thread view.
ultimentra wrote: That's an awesome list Traceoftoxin, I think I'm going to try and build towards something similar. Chapter approved is right around the corner though, so I may wait on buying 2 razorbacks and a bunch of tarantulas because you never know what's going to get nerfed and buffed. I really like the idea behind the list though.
A couple questions, where did you typically deploy your tarantulas? On objectives? Also what weapons did you give your scouts? Bolters? Shotguns?
Here's something I'm thinking about trying out in the near future:
Spoiler:
2k points, Black Templar Double Battalion + Spearhead:
Scouts sit on objectives, one pair of Captain/Lieutenant babysit the artillery, and the other go in the LRC with the plasma and melta squads. Emperor's Champion goes in the Storm Raven with the flamer squad to drop into the enemy deployment zone and say "hey look at me! I'm scary!"
I generally do 2 tarantulas near my predators/chapter master, and 1 on the far side of the deployment zone. Without the CM buffs, the tarantulas dont do much damage, but people still like to go after them so it serves as 27 pts of force splitting. I like to put them on the front line of deployment to help screen. As I mentioned, you can shoot anything within 1" of them, but if the enemy charges them, they can't just walk away without falling back. So, they make great screening units for very little cost.
I had 1 scout squad of each type. Overall I think the shotguns were the best, but, almost all the scouts did was control boardspace and die. Which is what I wanted them to do. So, that was fine. If you wanted them for objectives I'd take bolters or sniper rifles, though I think scout snipers are far too expensive (15 pts vs 7 pts for ratlings or elysian snipers, both are BS3+!!!).
Crusaders are not good at melee and never will be. Double flamer is decent. I use Emp Champ in a rhino with a double flamer squad for casual games, and it's a decent counter-assault unit, but there's so many better options. EC does do serious work vs characters though, I've had him 1 shot demon princes. Something you should keep in mind with your list.
I think if you want to do gunline style play you should drop the stormraven/LRC and move points around for 3x preds. If you want to play aggressive you should invest in company vets over melee crusaders. Either way, LRC are super vulnerable to being tied up, and you just don't have the means to stop it. I've used them 3-4 times in 8th, and while their firepower is pretty good, their best strength is being able to safely deliver assault units where you need them.
ultimentra wrote: That's an awesome list Traceoftoxin, I think I'm going to try and build towards something similar. Chapter approved is right around the corner though, so I may wait on buying 2 razorbacks and a bunch of tarantulas because you never know what's going to get nerfed and buffed. I really like the idea behind the list though.
A couple questions, where did you typically deploy your tarantulas? On objectives? Also what weapons did you give your scouts? Bolters? Shotguns?
Here's something I'm thinking about trying out in the near future:
Spoiler:
2k points, Black Templar Double Battalion + Spearhead:
Scouts sit on objectives, one pair of Captain/Lieutenant babysit the artillery, and the other go in the LRC with the plasma and melta squads. Emperor's Champion goes in the Storm Raven with the flamer squad to drop into the enemy deployment zone and say "hey look at me! I'm scary!"
I generally do 2 tarantulas near my predators/chapter master, and 1 on the far side of the deployment zone. Without the CM buffs, the tarantulas dont do much damage, but people still like to go after them so it serves as 27 pts of force splitting. I like to put them on the front line of deployment to help screen. As I mentioned, you can shoot anything within 1" of them, but if the enemy charges them, they can't just walk away without falling back. So, they make great screening units for very little cost.
I had 1 scout squad of each type. Overall I think the shotguns were the best, but, almost all the scouts did was control boardspace and die. Which is what I wanted them to do. So, that was fine. If you wanted them for objectives I'd take bolters or sniper rifles, though I think scout snipers are far too expensive (15 pts vs 7 pts for ratlings or elysian snipers, both are BS3+!!!).
Crusaders are not good at melee and never will be. Double flamer is decent. I use Emp Champ in a rhino with a double flamer squad for casual games, and it's a decent counter-assault unit, but there's so many better options. EC does do serious work vs characters though, I've had him 1 shot demon princes. Something you should keep in mind with your list.
I think if you want to do gunline style play you should drop the stormraven/LRC and move points around for 3x preds. If you want to play aggressive you should invest in company vets over melee crusaders. Either way, LRC are super vulnerable to being tied up, and you just don't have the means to stop it. I've used them 3-4 times in 8th, and while their firepower is pretty good, their best strength is being able to safely deliver assault units where you need them.
I'm definitely considering picking up some Predators here soon, I just don't have any at the moment. Currently in the works for a trade a third Rhino chassis. So soon I will have 2 Razorbacks, 1 Rhino, in terms of those types of vehicles. I have 3 drop pods? Yeah... naw...
Thanks for the words about how you work your tarantula guns and scouts. I know for sure Crusaders are no good at melee, the flamers are more there to clear away a path for the Emp's Champ to do his thing. Currently, in similar styled lists my tactic is to hybrid shooting/melee style army that gets up close, fires away, and charges in with the Emperor's Champion and some dreadnoughts, meanwhile captains, lieutenants or Helbrecht give rerolls to the LRC, plasma squads, and Melta squads gathering around him in a big bubble.
As I continue to theorycraft I look forward to getting your feedback! One more question, as for a CC unit to put inside the LRC, what do you recommend? Currently I don't put a CC unit in there at all, I actually use it to get 2 or 3 squads of Crusaders outfitted with all sorts of weaponry at close/mid range, then disembark with everyone and open fire. I've used TH/SS terminators three times, not convinced even with Helbrecht giving them Strength 10. 2 attacks a piece just isn't enough IMO even with re-rolls.
I really want to try out assault centurions, but the horrid models keep me from doing it. I won't try it until I can find a decent looking proxy/kitbash for some close combat dragonslayers.
Eventually I want to be able to build this army to a point where I have lists for both casual play, and tournament play. Your list looks really good right now. Again, I may wait for Chapter Approved for some heavy purchases.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I don't see how they can adjust the price of the TLAC Razorback (which aren't even broken, BTW) without making the other options too expensive. That they are being used as a Battle tank rather than an APC is mostly due to the other battle tanks outside the Quad Las Predator(which is still beaten by two Twin Las Razorbacks) being kinda crap. If they buffed the Vindicator (it should do d6 shots base, 3d3 against 10+) and made the Predator T8, we would be in business. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing the T8 tanks bumped up to a 2+ Sv(Vindicator, Hunter, and Stalker). The Razorback and Rhino can stay at T7 since they were historically lightly armored compared to the Predator and Whirlwind.
Also, Traceoftoxin, put your giant images behind spoilers. They really mess up the thread view.
You would then need to bump actual Battle Tanks up to a 2+ save like the Leman Russ plus similar heavily armoured Rhino variants such as the Exorcist.
Unrelated to the most recent discussions, but how would you guys run vanilla terminators? (I know they're not at all competitive and that's fine for me)
I'm on the fence if chainfists are worth the points, and I also can't decide if the AC is better than the RL.
Flood wrote: Can't go wrong with the AC, the range couples well with the stormbolters. Other than that I'd leave them as-is.
Agreed. The AC neatly complements the storm bolters in close-range dakka, which is where most of their damage output will be. 16 storm bolter shots are bound to put a dent in something, the softer the better. I consider their powerfists to be backup weapons and am not interested in the chainfist upgrade: at that high price, I'd rather take a dedicated assault terminator squad.
Most importantly I think, I wouldn't run them alone. Many Terminator strikes fail because people think they are indestructible and they over-extend them, deep striking them well away from the rest of their army. Thing is, they're still just a few 1s away from being rendered ineffective. Combine them with some other deep striking or fast moving elements to force your opponent to choose a target, or even consider keeping them in reserve for a turn or dropping them with your army for support instead of way out in the enemy deployment zone.
Overall I think this list is very strong. The only army I wasn't confident I could beat was the one I lost to, and the overall winner. Every unit performed as expected. I could see getting to the upper tables at a larger GT, but the list has a massive weakness to smite spam. Hordes could be a problem, depending on the army and what else is with the horde. The strongest things in the list were absolutely the bike chapter master and the preds. I would upgrade chapter master to thunder hammer, and maybe drop bike for JP. The mobility was a factor in every game, and the larger base helps with aura size. Company vets put out lots of dice and ate a 3 damage smite for him as well. The only thing I wished I had more of was scouts, though idk how I'd fit them. The crusaders were used to screen in 2 games, though when they actually got to shoot they were doing good damage. I was considering going heavier on the tarantulas, as enemies who charge them but dont wipe them can still be shot, but have to fall back to move away. The BT helm and strat were pivotal in both of my wins, and key to me staying alive in my last fight. I rerolled something like 3 or 4 charges with the chapter tactic, as well. I used all of my CP in every match.
I ended up in 3rd, the person I beat in round 2 was 2nd place because he had 2 major victories. That stung a bit, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles, I suppose.
While I do not have a ton of experience yet, I feel BT can make some moves up the ladder. The only match I have been 100% taken apart on so far was against smite spam, so I am adjusting my army to see how we can take it on. Good job representing!
Note on Reivers - I think taking a squad of 10 and splitting them up into combat squads would give you a large threat against characters if you can get them into a sweet spot for deployment, but it would be dependent on getting first turn. I'll give a report once I get a rematch against that Tzeentch player.
About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.
Captain Garius wrote: About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.
Captain Garius wrote: About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.
Captain Garius wrote: About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.
Seems wasteful using MoH on a VV squad.
I think he is moh on the dread
making it T8 or 9
It is T7 to T8 on a Comtemptor Dreadnoght, which is a real big deal. It also makes the dread to have one more attack.
Yes sorry if I was unclear. I don't have my book in front of me for the name of the other power. I use the one that gives reroll charges and always fight first on the VV, Might of Heroes on the Dread makes it mean with the extra T, S, and A.
Captain Garius wrote: About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.
Seems wasteful using MoH on a VV squad.
I think he is moh on the dread
making it T8 or 9
It is T7 to T8 on a Comtemptor Dreadnoght, which is a real big deal. It also makes the dread to have one more attack.
My bad didnt see the contemptor part so i assumed T8 for normal dreads and T9 for ironclads.
GangstaMuffin24 wrote: Unrelated to the most recent discussions, but how would you guys run vanilla terminators? (I know they're not at all competitive and that's fine for me)
I'm on the fence if chainfists are worth the points, and I also can't decide if the AC is better than the RL.
Vanilla Terminators are actually competitive in 8th, especially when you use them properly. Bolter Drill with Imperial Fists is nice, 6+ ignore a wound with Iron Hands is great, they put out tons of shots, are durable, and can obliterate a tank if you get the charge on the turn they come in, after shooting an infantry squad to pieces. AC is great, chainfist only if you have extra points floating around, add 1 or 2, but points is better used elsewhere most of the time. A squad of 10 Teleporting is great, especially if supported by a Libby in terminator armor for Null zone in certain situations.
The reason I like the marine's Librarius discipline is its buff type power apply to units with "Adeptus Astartes" keyword, so it also buffs GK, BA, SW and DA
Assault Cannon on regular Terminators. Cyclone is mildly too expensive for my liking. They're not spectacular but I wouldn't actually mind running them for once in my game career since 4th.
I think assault cannon is definitely the way to go with termies, but I haven't really found them to be that useful so far in the 2-3 games i've used them.
Making the charge is unreliable without a librarian in range + getting the power off, and as good as the firepower is, it's on a very expensive unit that dies fairly quickly to plasma.
I had my first negative experience with my Primaris against my regular opponent lol. We played maelstrom for the first time. He wised up with 2D weapons, had some rolls go his way (first shots of the game from a crawler blew up a Dread, and plinked a mortal wound on my captain), Blightlord termies held up my killiest stuff (they are unreal resilient), and an exploding drone put the last wound on another dread, captain and lieutenant. He went first and I conceded after his third turn lol. Lessons were learned about hiding things, the danger of mortal wounds, and the danger of crawlers shooting out of line of sight.
I pretty much exclusively run my Primaris as Raptors (Raven Guard) so that helps with the plasma being an issue. That extra -1 to hit either makes people think or else it helps you take them out with you. Blight Lords are nasty; I actually am starting to run them in my own Death Guard army now. I actually feel like this may be a place where Grav really shines. The added weight of fire, and chance for 3 wounds to make them pass more DR saves I think will help. Still just speculation though. I'll run some math on it later. Drones and Plagueburst Crawlers are two of the best things in the Death Guard Codex. Super durable, respectable damage, and either fast or decent range. I don't know how he ran them, but the Entropy Cannons are the best bet, so if you can make him have to shoot out of LoS then you will be doing yourself a favor. They are just the perfect mix of hard to kill with enough damage you can't really ignore them. The drones usually you want to try and ignore, but they can be so disruptive that it's hard to.
Just played against my buddies IG tank company. Pask having 2+to his armor saves from the combination of psychic barrier and the take cover stratagem is really obnoxious. Made my 8 lascannons rather worthless. No idea how to deal with that codex as SM. Seems like with most objective and game types IG will just flat out wear SM's down.
Perhaps 8th is still new, and the verdict is still out on what units are good and which ones are "garbage". Certain posters in this thread that feel compelled to trash specific units should refrain from speaking in absolutes until they know enough about the metagame to make sweeping judgements about it.
Perhaps 8th is still new, and the verdict is still out on what units are good and which ones are "garbage". Certain posters in this thread that feel compelled to trash specific units should refrain from speaking in absolutes until they know enough about the metagame to make sweeping judgements about it.
Oh look it happened at ONE tournament and you're using that as your baseline. Remember in 6th when someone did the same thing with Calgar and 5 Tactical Squads?
Nobody does because it happened once. If he took Scouts I'd have guaranteed even BETTER results.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also everyone knows the reason that list did well was the Assault Cannon Razorbacks + Rowboat. If even one of those was removed it would've done poorly.
There is also a big difference between taking 6 squads of tacs compared to only taking 2-3. Sometimes spamming a mediocre unit can be good in the right army.
What it did for his list is force the other player to chew through 4 marines each time they need to get rid of a las cannon. Compared to a predator or dev squad, which are definitely "better" units in a vacuum, it makes it much harder to eliminate the las cannons even if you go first, since a lot of armies can kill 2 predators or 2 dev squads in one turn, but probably can't kill 6 tac squads. It's entirely possible that you get more las cannon shots over the course of the game if they are spread out like that.
It is true that the only thing that made up for the inefficiency of the Tacs was the incredible efficiency of the Razorbacks, Stormraven, and Roboute, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea.
I was at the GT heat. Qualified, just, with 3 wins. Learned a lot about the game in the process.
I found my storm raven and repulsor extremely good for engaging enemy units in melee - especially parking lots. There's a bit of a trick to it but ultimately what you do is charge a razorback, then consolidate and rotate your tank sideways, so as to get within 1" of the tanks either side of it.
I did that in my last game against a dark angels parking lot and it dropped the firepower coming back at me by a huge amount. The storm raven got a first turn charge, then to my surprise it turned out that my opponent was so bunched up, and with a ruin on one side, that he couldn't even fall back. This meant that my storm raven was still locked in combat and he couldn't even shoot at it. Then on my turn of course it was free to fly away, while my repulsor had caught up and was ready to take over.
It also helped a lot that on turn 2 I killed 4 of his vehicles, and 3 of them exploded. Loads of his guys were caught by the explosions, and both Azrael and his Primaris Lieutenant died. He conceded at that point, as his army was a total mess.
I had a lot of luck with the explosions in that game. The main thing though was that by that point my captain had the relic and had nearly made it behind a hill that would have made him totally safe, out of LoS of all of the firebase.
I'm considering taking more fast, hovering flyers specifically for this job. Maybe two stormtalons, or even three of them for the CP (though that may be overkill). I'd love to have another repulsor as well.
I learned how to do this the hard way. My opponent in game 2 was using sisters with 5 or 6 repressors, all but one of which had 5 melta gun dominions inside.
He had a key trick that he repeated a few times. Seraphim charge a unit, and surround one guy so that it's impossible for him to move away and fall back. Repressors also charge it. So now you can't shoot the repressor, and you can't really kill it because it's only engaged one marine.
Then the next turn the repulsor will fall back. It now can't shoot or assault, but the dominions inside it can. So effectively you have these all-but-invincible repressors driving around, melting all your stuff, and there's very little you can do about it.
Over the weekend there was quite a lot of complaining about Forgeworld. When a lot of tournament players pick through those indexes for the broken stuff, a lot of filth appears. Repressors are one of the worst examples, because they totally change the sisters of battle. How can the rules team write rules for any army if Forgeworld is going to come along and let them ride in transports they can shoot out of - or whatever. For example it's going to be weird when electro priests, who are meant to have to foot slog, get to ride in a triaros (or whatever it's called).
If anything's worse than Forgeworld it's Guilliman, and if anything's worse than Guilliman it's IG tank companies. There was a guy with 9 Catachan Leman Russ. They consistently spit out really large numbers of shots. Amusingly, the guy who wrote the IG codex was there, using necrons, and he got tabled by a tank company in a really short time. This was the favourite moment of the weekend for a lot of people, including his colleagues in the design studio.
I got to play Jes Bickham's death guard, and managed to table him on turn 5. That Mortarion chap can take some shooting. Jes is a very nice guy and we had a good chat about the state of the game, the "new" GW and other stuff. Overall it was a really fun weekend. Oh and my crimson fists got nominated as one of the best painted armies, which was nice. A death korps army won that prize.
Perhaps 8th is still new, and the verdict is still out on what units are good and which ones are "garbage". Certain posters in this thread that feel compelled to trash specific units should refrain from speaking in absolutes until they know enough about the metagame to make sweeping judgements about it.
The list only worked because of Gulliman - plain and simple.
The Lascannons go from [6 shots, 4 hits, 2-3 wounds] to... [6 shots, 6 hits, 6 wounds]. Significant difference.
Gulliman is just that powerful - rerolling ALL hits and ALL wounds is insane; Salamanders trait, all the time, on every model, every shot.
Oh, and nevermind that Gulliman can CC any monster or model (superheavy or otherwise) that comes to threaten his circle of marines - throw the "lives until the close combat is over" strategem on top of that; there's no risk of him not doing his job, ever.
The 6 Razorbacks also output serious work; even without Gulliman's auras, they're still VERY solid.
He had something like the following:
1 warboss on bike
1 warboss on foot
1 wierdboy
2 deffkoptas
1 battlewagon, 20 boyz,
30 boyz
2 killa kans
We played index rules, other than point costs (no wargear, no chapter traits). He'd never played orks before, and we were both pretty sure his list was far from optimal, but he wanted to use what he had.
The Captain and 5 intercessors got charged by a 30 man ork (da jump) squad first turn, they were on my flank. I was a bit lucky, and he forgot he had his nob when he charged. (30 orks, it was hard to see him in there). But the Gravis Captain just tanked the hell out of the orks. The charge was a stretch at 9", and a lot of the orks didn't make it into combat the first round. He only managed to take out a single intercessor. I was quite impressed at their durability.
The following turn I got might of heroes off on the intercessors, charged a second intercessor squad and the librarian in, and pretty much wiped out the orks. It was brutal. Had he got a couple hits with his nob off the first round he might have taken out my captain with some luck, but it was hard to know.
Meanwhile on the other flank his whole army pretty much faced off with my redemptor and 1 squad of intercessors in ruins. The redemptor wasn't going to get away, so I charged his battlewagon (in retrospect this was a terrible terrible idea), and failed to bust it. Everything left in his army charged the redemptor, but it tanked it all for two turns.
Eventually managed to wipe out most of his army. I ended up only losing 5 intercessors, a hellblaster, and the redemptor. I was really surprised at how tough the primaris could be if properly dug into cover, or in melee against units with no ap. His Big Choppas and Power Claws were very threatening however.
I also realized I have no idea how to properly deploy space marines. Any advice for that?
Mandragola wrote: Oh and my crimson fists got nominated as one of the best painted armies, which was nice.
Pics.
I don't have many - there's never time during the games. You can see Warhammer World's pics on Facebook though. There are pics of all the 6 armies that were nominated and my Crimson Fists are the first ones after the pictures of the winner (and they are the only crimson fists, obviously!). There are a couple more pics of my captain, repulsor and centurions later on in the album too.
Mandragola wrote: Oh and my crimson fists got nominated as one of the best painted armies, which was nice.
Pics.
I don't have many - there's never time during the games. You can see Warhammer World's pics on Facebook though. There are pics of all the 6 armies that were nominated and my Crimson Fists are the first ones after the pictures of the winner (and they are the only crimson fists, obviously!). There are a couple more pics of my captain, repulsor and centurions later on in the album too.
Playing more games I feel Ven Dreads really hit a sweet spot compared to Predators and base Dreads. It lacks wounds and movement compared to a battle tank but benefits from higher BS, some combat prowess, FNP helping to bridge the wounds gap, and most importantly Chapter Tactics. I really like the Pred model but I’m drawn to Ven Dreads for their versatility and cool models.
Bremon wrote: Playing more games I feel Ven Dreads really hit a sweet spot compared to Predators and base Dreads. It lacks wounds and movement compared to a battle tank but benefits from higher BS, some combat prowess, FNP helping to bridge the wounds gap, and most importantly Chapter Tactics. I really like the Pred model but I’m drawn to Ven Dreads for their versatility and cool models.
Similar view for me, I am considering 3 Contemptor Dreadnoughts instead of Razorback spam to run around Guiliman. Although it scarificed some firepower, it looks much more threathening in combat than Razorback, and can pull out of tarpit than shoot, unlike Razorbacks --- got tarpit = silenced for whole game.
Bremon wrote: Playing more games I feel Ven Dreads really hit a sweet spot compared to Predators and base Dreads. It lacks wounds and movement compared to a battle tank but benefits from higher BS, some combat prowess, FNP helping to bridge the wounds gap, and most importantly Chapter Tactics. I really like the Pred model but I’m drawn to Ven Dreads for their versatility and cool models.
Similar view for me, I am considering 3 Contemptor Dreadnoughts instead of Razorback spam to run around Guiliman. Although it scarificed some firepower, it looks much more threathening in combat than Razorback, and can pull out of tarpit than shoot, unlike Razorbacks --- got tarpit = silenced for whole game.
True, though you really don't need Guilliman for contemptors to work. Salamander ones in particular are fine without any buffs.
Agreed Mandragola, upon initial reveal I didn’t think too highly of the Salamanders’ Chapter Tactic, but it’s likely tied with RG as the best in the codex. In a meta that requires extensive anti-tank and a faction that loathes paying its troop tax, I would say the Salamanders’ Tacticals with a lascannon or plasma gun are the only Tac marines that are worth much of anything. A Battalion with 3 lascannons for troops that have a built in Guilliman buff are about as much as we can strive for imo.
I believe they have the cheapest Chapter Master buff in the Watch Master, Corvus Blackstars are mini Stormravens, and a pod with two five man squads with 8 Frag Cannons and two Combi-plas might be the hardest hitting thing you can put in a pod (20 wounds on a Baneblade WITHOUT any rerolls), but is hideously expensive.
Apart from that, nothing has really caught my eye as compared to the marine dex.
Bremon wrote: Agreed Mandragola, upon initial reveal I didn’t think too highly of the Salamanders’ Chapter Tactic, but it’s likely tied with RG as the best in the codex. In a meta that requires extensive anti-tank and a faction that loathes paying its troop tax, I would say the Salamanders’ Tacticals with a lascannon or plasma gun are the only Tac marines that are worth much of anything. A Battalion with 3 lascannons for troops that have a built in Guilliman buff are about as much as we can strive for imo.
True, though salamanders are hampered somewhat by their awful stratagem (as flamers aren’t much use anyway).
I maintain that people who hate marine troops haven’t used intercessors - or at least haven’t used much. They are very capable. And you should probably always take a unit of scouts to snipe stuff and/or screen.
Intercessors are the only troop I’ve used thus far this edition. My opponents have wised up and they are now 20 point tac marines with no special weapons.
Holding the Salamanders chapter tactic against them doesn’t hold much weight as an argument, as most of the chapter specific ones aren’t too hot. Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
Bremon wrote: Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
I disagree completely. It is statistically superior to DTW for critical abilities such as Warptime on Magnus, who is a chaos mainstay.
Plus in all honestly having the ability to drop in and charge is pretty clutch if you need to stop Conscripts from firing at you in mass amounts. It's almost a 50% chance. So basically if you drop in 4 units of Vanguard or Assault Marines, odds are that 2 of them make the charge most of the time. Also helps with Scouts as well. That said, everyone is about shooting is the issue.
Bremon wrote: Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
I disagree completely. It is statistically superior to DTW for critical abilities such as Warptime on Magnus, who is a chaos mainstay.
Plus in all honestly having the ability to drop in and charge is pretty clutch if you need to stop Conscripts from firing at you in mass amounts. It's almost a 50% chance. So basically if you drop in 4 units of Vanguard or Assault Marines, odds are that 2 of them make the charge most of the time. Also helps with Scouts as well. That said, everyone is about shooting is the issue.
Agreed. RG and UM are definitely the best chapters atm, but I think BT overall are third. even if Sallys have a really strong CT, their strat and relic are much weaker, imo.
I'm surprised White Scars spamming assault/vanguard vets aren't more common.
Bremon wrote: Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
I disagree completely. It is statistically superior to DTW for critical abilities such as Warptime on Magnus, who is a chaos mainstay.
Am I missing something, or do BT not run out of DTW as soon as they run out of CP, and, by denying, neuter things like their ability to reroll damage on a mediocre damage roll, etc.? Different approaches I suppose. BT seem quite good though, overall, a nice balance of CT, warlord trait, relic, etc. Their anti-psyker ability in a meta of smite spam is a bit underwhelming to say the least.
Bremon wrote: Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
I disagree completely. It is statistically superior to DTW for critical abilities such as Warptime on Magnus, who is a chaos mainstay.
Am I missing something, or do BT not run out of DTW as soon as they run out of CP, and, by denying, neuter things like their ability to reroll damage on a mediocre damage roll, etc.? Different approaches I suppose. BT seem quite good though, overall, a nice balance of CT, warlord trait, relic, etc. Their anti-psyker ability in a meta of smite spam is a bit underwhelming to say the least.
I never said it was good for stopping smite spam, in fact I said earlier that was a major weakness. However, SM in general have a weakness to smite spam. What BT do have that no one else does is the highest % to stop key psychic abilities. DTW is basically 50% chance if you have a libby within 12, and less for anyone else. Far less when dealing with Magnus. How many librarians are you running in your list? Because if you don't have two librarians, you have exactly the same number of deny attempts as the BT player.
Really the only answer to smite spam, is smite spam. Which you can do with an AM detachment besides BT and get the best of both worlds.
As for CP - Because of the BT relic helm you can take a CM and get a mini Guilleman for 1/3 the cost, opening up the ability to take a brigade. With 9 CP, I have enough CP to deny (with chance for reroll) and use killshot for 3 turns. I don't generally use CP for much other than that.
I like the salamanders relic personally, it may not be the best but it's not bad. Putting a T4 to T5 can be very useful, as can getting a T6 to T7 (bike + mantle + might of hero's = one tough biker charecter).
I won't argue it's the best, far from it, but it's definitely not bad and when you add salamander chapter tactic to the list and focus on that suddenly salamanders are super sweet. My normal salamander army is composed of 6 tactical squads, 5 man / 1 with heavy weapon, 2 assault cannon dreadnoughts, 1 venerable dread (typically double laz but sometimes plasma cannon), captain on bike with mantel, and librarian on bike with MOH and psychic Ward (the one that gives a 4+ save vs mortal wounds, a waste to cast until that time when it saves your bacon). From there it's a case of "what do I want to play with" because that starting force is only 66pl / 1338 pts, leaving enough room to customize from there.
And with all those heavy weapons spread out like that they will hit and wound almost all the time thanks to tactic, even when moving. That leaves my captain with the freedom to do something stupid like charge a hive tyrant or carnifex with the lib close by and I know he can take the hits.
Bremon wrote: Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
I disagree completely. It is statistically superior to DTW for critical abilities such as Warptime on Magnus, who is a chaos mainstay.
Plus in all honestly having the ability to drop in and charge is pretty clutch if you need to stop Conscripts from firing at you in mass amounts. It's almost a 50% chance. So basically if you drop in 4 units of Vanguard or Assault Marines, odds are that 2 of them make the charge most of the time. Also helps with Scouts as well. That said, everyone is about shooting is the issue.
Agreed. RG and UM are definitely the best chapters atm, but I think BT overall are third. even if Sallys have a really strong CT, their strat and relic are much weaker, imo.
I'm surprised White Scars spamming assault/vanguard vets aren't more common.
Honestly I think that all the traits are solid besides Imperial Fists (which is dependant on terrain), and in last place is Iron Hands, who in fairness get a solid relic but that doesn't make up for a lame trait and super bad Strategem.
Bremon wrote: Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
I disagree completely. It is statistically superior to DTW for critical abilities such as Warptime on Magnus, who is a chaos mainstay.
Plus in all honestly having the ability to drop in and charge is pretty clutch if you need to stop Conscripts from firing at you in mass amounts. It's almost a 50% chance. So basically if you drop in 4 units of Vanguard or Assault Marines, odds are that 2 of them make the charge most of the time. Also helps with Scouts as well. That said, everyone is about shooting is the issue.
Agreed. RG and UM are definitely the best chapters atm, but I think BT overall are third. even if Sallys have a really strong CT, their strat and relic are much weaker, imo.
I'm surprised White Scars spamming assault/vanguard vets aren't more common.
Honestly I think that all the traits are solid besides Imperial Fists (which is dependant on terrain), and in last place is Iron Hands, who in fairness get a solid relic but that doesn't make up for a lame trait and super bad Strategem.
As a Crimson Fist player I think our relatively weak CT and totally useless stratagem is balanced somewhat by having a very good relic weapon and a decent (if somewhat overpriced, in my view) chapter master, who we can have without paying CTs.
It may also be that the reason I like my intercessors is because the imperial fist CT actually does work for them. If my intercessors are in cover shooting vs other people's troops, I win. Sniper scouts, who would get a 2+ save vs most small arms fire, get only a 5+ save against my dudes. Ratlings are gone on a 2+ to wound, with no save. I can typically rely on the intercessors to strip away other people's scoring units over the course of the game, while my other stuff deals with urgent threats.
Can move+advance 20" and get 3d6 hits on a unit another 8" back
If they don't advance, they can fire 12 boltgun shots at BS 3+, 2 at BS4+, and 3d6 flamer hits.
6 T5 wounds. 110 pts. Thoughts?
Bikes are very good and their only downside is they fail to take advantage of the auras that are the lifeblood of 8th edition marines unless you are running a full bike force. Although, I suspect some armies that utilize a drop in strategy utilize bikers much more efficiently.
Also scout bikers are great for, like, the first time ever.
Bikes are very good and their only downside is they fail to take advantage of the auras that are the lifeblood of 8th edition marines unless you are running a full bike force. Although, I suspect some armies that utilize a drop in strategy utilize bikers much more efficiently.
Also scout bikers are great for, like, the first time ever.
Scout bikes had some gimmicky uses before. I think the melta torpedo was in 5th. With their assorted deployment rules they could pull off turn one assaults. Vehicles that had not moved the previous turn were auto-hit in CC. Sage takes melta bomb. Did that tank move before turn one? Nope, it has never moved. And never will; Boom.
And they were always a fun toolbox unit. They might not have excelled at any one thing, but they had a ton of wacky rules and options that could be leveraged in various scenarios. I enjoyed rapid firing krack grenades into the backs of tanks from out of outflank.
Is there any good reason to taking a 4x Lascannon Predator over two Twin-lascannon Razorbacks? You are paying roughly 40 more points, but you get 10 more wounds and an extra Stormbolter/HK. Not to mention damaging one Razorback won't affect the stats of the other.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Is there any good reason to taking a 4x Lascannon Predator over two Twin-lascannon Razorbacks? You are paying roughly 40 more points, but you get 10 more wounds and an extra Stormbolter/HK. Not to mention damaging one Razorback won't affect the stats of the other.
bobsmith7777 wrote: Is there any good reason to taking a 4x Lascannon Predator over two Twin-lascannon Razorbacks? You are paying roughly 40 more points, but you get 10 more wounds and an extra Stormbolter/HK. Not to mention damaging one Razorback won't affect the stats of the other.
Spoletta wrote: On that note, how do people tipically play killshot? Do you increase the damage of heavy bolters and autocannons or only on the lascannons?
Looking at my codex:
"Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase if a Predator is within 6" of two other friendly <Chapter> Predators. If you do so, you can add 1 to the wound rolls and damage for all of the Predators’ attacks that target Monsters or Vehicles this phase."
So it seems everything that's on the Pred (storm bolter, sponson weapons, HK missile, and main gun) would be buffed.
The BT DTW strat is actually pretty solid. The way I read it you can activate it off any BT unit, so you basically have DTW so long as you have the CP to spare. Pretty handy, but I agree it's not going to be very effective against smite spam.
One note about Dreads. Have not played my Ven Dread yet, but I am a huge fan of my Ironclad! Equipped him with a Hurricane, SB, Chainfist, and Assault Launchers. That bad boy will put out some damage for only 137 points, and has nuked entire squads in one turn if the opponent isn't careful.
Spoletta wrote: On that note, how do people tipically play killshot? Do you increase the damage of heavy bolters and autocannons or only on the lascannons?
Looking at my codex:
"Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase if a Predator is within 6" of two other friendly <Chapter> Predators. If you do so, you can add 1 to the wound rolls and damage for all of the Predators’ attacks that target Monsters or Vehicles this phase."
So it seems everything that's on the Pred (storm bolter, sponson weapons, HK missile, and main gun) would be buffed.
Cool, i remembered that it affected damage ROLLS, which meant only lascannons.
Karthicus wrote: The BT DTW strat is actually pretty solid. The way I read it you can activate it off any BT unit, so you basically have DTW so long as you have the CP to spare. Pretty handy, but I agree it's not going to be very effective against smite spam.
One note about Dreads. Have not played my Ven Dread yet, but I am a huge fan of my Ironclad! Equipped him with a Hurricane, SB, Chainfist, and Assault Launchers. That bad boy will put out some damage for only 137 points, and has nuked entire squads in one turn if the opponent isn't careful.
I’ll admit you guys are opening my eyes to the BT possibilities. This thread has been quite valuable so far!
On the subject of Ironclads...I’ve been running a pair in small games and it has been fun. The T8, assault launchers, and 4D are all unexpected surprises, and we’ve taken to playing Maelstrom. That leads to the enemy needing to come to the middle of the table and has lead to fun times. Last night we had 2 ironclads vs a Daemon Prince and 2 lawnmower drones. Noxious explosions were had lol.
I think that all dreads are probably pretty good, with the possible exception of the redemptor. Even that has its uses as a static gunbot, or possibly in an iron hand list using the stratagem to move. It needs potms.
I'd still always go for the contemptor. It's tough like theironclad or venerable are, as it's got more wounds and an invulnerable. It's hard hitting in cc because, even though it only does 3 damage and not the chainfist's 4, its more accurate and stronger than the ironclad. It's fast too.
Where contemptors do suffer is their guns. The kheres/multimelta option is much worse than a twin lascannon. A kheres isn't awful, and it's pretty cheap. This results in a dread that you won't mind spending a lot of time in cc, where it belongs.
One option I'd be really interested to see would be a bunch of venerable dreads with lascannons and fists. It seems to me that they'd be pretty good all-rounders
I really like the idea of twin las and a fist but they’re nearly 200 points so start to get a bit expensive, and at that point I want something to be more specialized; mince in CC or stands still and shoot proficiently. One fist guarding a gunline isn’t a bad idea though.
Yeah, that may well be the way to go. I basically think the fist is likely to have more of an influence on the game than the missile launcher. It's about having the option of a counter attack if something threatens your gunline.
My chaplain dread has lascannons and a fist and he does well. Of course it helps that he also can't easily be shot at, thanks to being a character.
I've been running 3-4 dreads in my lists, two KAC/Fist Contemptors, a dual KAC Relic Contemptor and a shooty venerable with TL Lascannon and ML. They've been doing so well I'm building another venerable right now and probably going to buy another.
I wasn't impressed with the ironclad, but I honestly forgot about the hurricane bolter. That helps bring the price down significantly, I might have to proxy one in, but I'm still not sure it beats out a Contemptor.
Honestly I don't like the regular Contemptor because it lowers in movement as it takes damage. If you wanna talk about the Relic version, now you're...talking.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah, that may well be the way to go. I basically think the fist is likely to have more of an influence on the game than the missile launcher. It's about having the option of a counter attack if something threatens your gunline.
My chaplain dread has lascannons and a fist and he does well. Of course it helps that he also can't easily be shot at, thanks to being a character.
The missile launcher is definitely underwhelming. Twin autocannon is a handsome alternative.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I don't like the regular Contemptor because it lowers in movement as it takes damage. If you wanna talk about the Relic version, now you're...talking.
Weird complaint. The contemptor is only slower than a normal dread after taking 8 wounds, when the normal dread would already be dead. Likewise it only becomes less good at hitting things when a normal dread would already be dead. And it has an invulnerable save so it takes wounds less quickly than a normal dread.
Perth wrote: I've been running 3-4 dreads in my lists, two KAC/Fist Contemptors, a dual KAC Relic Contemptor and a shooty venerable with TL Lascannon and ML. They've been doing so well I'm building another venerable right now and probably going to buy another.
I wasn't impressed with the ironclad, but I honestly forgot about the hurricane bolter. That helps bring the price down significantly, I might have to proxy one in, but I'm still not sure it beats out a Contemptor.
Remember that the dreadnought combat weapon is free for an ironclad. You only pay for the left arm chainfist/hammer - plus any storm bolters etc that are attached to either arm.
This means that a hurricane bolter probably isn't much of a cost saving. It's a good gun though, and very cheap.
Anyway, despite all of that, I still prefer the contemptor.
I haven't played with or against a contemptor yet, but from what I am reading in my codex I don't think either frame would be a bad addition to your army list.
If you grab the KAF you are looking at 165 points, which imo isn't too pricey considering what you are getting. I am drawn to the Ironclad for how flexible the load out options are.
That hurricane bolter can clear a lot of models in a hurry - which to me seems to be a real nice plus considering all the concern I have seen about screen units since I have joined, and it's only 4 points? Yes please.
I could actually swap that chainfist for the seismic hammer, and my point total is only 139. Thats giving me -4ap and 5 damage, but to be fair I would only be hitting effectively on 4's instead of 2s for your combat weapon. If I really wanted to push the envelope with CC (which I am thinking of a trial run soon since I play BT anyway) I could move to the Hammer and combat weapon, giving me wrecker so I can reroll 1's. I just picked up a Stormraven, so dropping that beast into the middle of the enemy? That loadout would run around 152 (SB on your combat arm, and HF on your hammer arm)
Now drop in an LT close by....
I will stop rambling now, but as I said... solid pick to consider.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I don't like the regular Contemptor because it lowers in movement as it takes damage. If you wanna talk about the Relic version, now you're...talking.
Weird complaint. The contemptor is only slower than a normal dread after taking 8 wounds, when the normal dread would already be dead. Likewise it only becomes less good at hitting things when a normal dread would already be dead. And it has an invulnerable save so it takes wounds less quickly than a normal dread.
Perth wrote: I've been running 3-4 dreads in my lists, two KAC/Fist Contemptors, a dual KAC Relic Contemptor and a shooty venerable with TL Lascannon and ML. They've been doing so well I'm building another venerable right now and probably going to buy another.
I wasn't impressed with the ironclad, but I honestly forgot about the hurricane bolter. That helps bring the price down significantly, I might have to proxy one in, but I'm still not sure it beats out a Contemptor.
Remember that the dreadnought combat weapon is free for an ironclad. You only pay for the left arm chainfist/hammer - plus any storm bolters etc that are attached to either arm.
This means that a hurricane bolter probably isn't much of a cost saving. It's a good gun though, and very cheap.
Anyway, despite all of that, I still prefer the contemptor.
It isn't a strange complaint. If the opponent just wants to cripple it so it doesn't go anywhere, they well. The Relic also has those abilities as well but has a better damage chart to a unit that wants to go into melee.
Pretty sure the math adds up to the seismic hammer being a statistically worse choice than dreadnought chainfist about 99% of the time. 4 damage more reliably is more impressive to me than 5 less often.
BT are a dark horse. They're not Ultramarines, but too many people look at the CT and think they've got to play an assault army.
Meanwhile, Crusaders are one of the better troop options we have, the BT strat is strong when you only get 1 chance at certain key powers, and the relic more than doubles the effective area of a chapter master buff-one of the strongest buffs in the game. I look at the CT as just a way to help ensure mid-range charges (The kind that cost you the game when you fail them), rather than a way to bet on long range ones.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I don't like the regular Contemptor because it lowers in movement as it takes damage. If you wanna talk about the Relic version, now you're...talking.
Weird complaint. The contemptor is only slower than a normal dread after taking 8 wounds, when the normal dread would already be dead. Likewise it only becomes less good at hitting things when a normal dread would already be dead. And it has an invulnerable save so it takes wounds less quickly than a normal dread.
Perth wrote: I've been running 3-4 dreads in my lists, two KAC/Fist Contemptors, a dual KAC Relic Contemptor and a shooty venerable with TL Lascannon and ML. They've been doing so well I'm building another venerable right now and probably going to buy another.
I wasn't impressed with the ironclad, but I honestly forgot about the hurricane bolter. That helps bring the price down significantly, I might have to proxy one in, but I'm still not sure it beats out a Contemptor.
Remember that the dreadnought combat weapon is free for an ironclad. You only pay for the left arm chainfist/hammer - plus any storm bolters etc that are attached to either arm.
This means that a hurricane bolter probably isn't much of a cost saving. It's a good gun though, and very cheap.
Anyway, despite all of that, I still prefer the contemptor.
It isn't a strange complaint. If the opponent just wants to cripple it so it doesn't go anywhere, they well. The Relic also has those abilities as well but has a better damage chart to a unit that wants to go into melee.
The relic is better, of course. And more expensive. I’m talking about the contemptor vs the ironclad. Their prices are comparable.
I’ve also found a contemptor’s better streng5h matters. S14 means wounding a lot of vehicles on a 2+.
But as I said earlier, all of the dread options are good. For me, the contemptor is the most efficient way of delivering those dreadnought combat weapon attacks to the faces of my enemies, where they belong. But st the guy Heat I met a guy with 6 (yes, 6) non-venerable riflemen dreads stood by Azrael and a lieutenant, and you could see what he was going for.
Karthicus wrote: I could move to the Hammer and combat weapon, giving me wrecker so I can reroll 1's.
I think double CC weapons on Ironclads for Wrecker is almost never worth it. One of my biggest uses for CP is for Wisdom of the Ancients to cover areas my Chapter Master can't so my dreads are almost always rerolling 1's anyways.
Traceoftoxin wrote: BT are a dark horse. They're not Ultramarines, but too many people look at the CT and think they've got to play an assault army.
Meanwhile, Crusaders are one of the better troop options we have, the BT strat is strong when you only get 1 chance at certain key powers, and the relic more than doubles the effective area of a chapter master buff-one of the strongest buffs in the game. I look at the CT as just a way to help ensure mid-range charges (The kind that cost you the game when you fail them), rather than a way to bet on long range ones.
It basically makes the army play aggressively. I'm always looking for rerolls on charges when I play most of my lists because of it. Not all of course (parking lot for DAYS) but yeah.
I agree with using the Stratagem to reroll over taking a second Combat Weapon on your Ironclad. I only run 2 Combat Weapons on my Hellforged Contemptors because of the underslung Soulburners. I play Raptors so it is pretty easy to justify trying out other Chapter Tactics using my models, but most often I use RG or CF. Pedro makes me happy, and so does Lias, but even just the RG strat and Chapter Tactic make my lists work well. I am planning on running both Salamanders and Black Templars soon though. BT were my favorite Chapter before (fluff reasons more than tabletop reasons) and when the new addition came out I told myself I was going to build an army of them. I may still do that but using my current models in the meantime and testing them out is looking great after reading some of the ideas for them on here.
Karthicus wrote: I could move to the Hammer and combat weapon, giving me wrecker so I can reroll 1's.
I think double CC weapons on Ironclads for Wrecker is almost never worth it. One of my biggest uses for CP is for Wisdom of the Ancients to cover areas my Chapter Master can't so my dreads are almost always rerolling 1's anyways.
Very good point. I recently picked up a Stormraven, so I was thinking about my options for getting right into CC as soon as it dropped onto the map. Thinking it over now, I believe you have a much more effective path using your dream like that. Good call.
Has anyone noticed that the repulsor model comes with a HK missile, which it isn’t allowed to have? It’s mounted vertically, amongst the stowage boxes. You could easily miss it unless you put one together.
I played a game against Jes Bickham at the GT heat a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned this, and he said it was because the rules designers didn’t know about the HK. Apparently they got given an early version of the model to test, and the closed box for the HK just looked like another bit of stowage. Then when he saw the rules, Jes Goodwin was less than happy to see it left out.
He said it would be difficult to add the option now that the codex was published. I mentioned that they’d done exactly that for reiver sergeants and their swords. We’ll see if I was persuasive!
Jes was using quite a cool nurgle army. Mortarion, quite a lot of flamer drones and stuff. Really good game, and great to chat to a designer. Felt a bit bad to table him
Mandragola wrote: Has anyone noticed that the repulsor model comes with a HK missile, which it isn’t allowed to have? It’s mounted vertically, amongst the stowage boxes. You could easily miss it unless you put one together.
I played a game against Jes Bickham at the GT heat a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned this, and he said it was because the rules designers didn’t know about the HK. Apparently they got given an early version of the model to test, and the closed box for the HK just looked like another bit of stowage. Then when he saw the rules, Jes Goodwin was less than happy to see it left out.
He said it would be difficult to add the option now that the codex was published. I mentioned that they’d done exactly that for reiver sergeants and their swords. We’ll see if I was persuasive!
Jes was using quite a cool nurgle army. Mortarion, quite a lot of flamer drones and stuff. Really good game, and great to chat to a designer. Felt a bit bad to table him
Well it also does come with a massive sized melta bomb that no one gets to use.
but yeah no Primarus marines gets a missile like that which is a bumber. probably a later release.
I'm pretty sure that's something other than a massive melta bomb, but yes, agreed. I think it would be cool if the reliquary thing was an option that did something too.
That said, it already takes half a spreadsheet to work out the points cost of a repulsor, so I'm not sure adding to the chaos would be sensible.
BA player here tired to get tabled. I accidentally found an interesting chapter, named blood ravens, which looks like BA but use the space marine codex. I wanted to try them out using the ravenguard chapter tactics: I guess scout and devastators and venerable dreddy are a must have to abuse their rule right? What else do I need to run a 2000 points list?
BA player here tired to get tabled. I accidentally found an interesting chapter, named blood ravens, which looks like BA but use the space marine codex. I wanted to try them out using the ravenguard chapter tactics: I guess scout and devastators and venerable dreddy are a must have to abuse their rule right? What else do I need to run a 2000 points list?
Cheers
Spado
Depends what you want out of the list. Those are all solid choices for a list though.
Depends what you want out of the list. Those are all solid choices for a list though.
Fluff wise you want Librarians though.
I really want to focus on a shooty list because right now I think that close combat isn't the way to go. I'm looking for some competitive advice because I want to win more matches xD.
Well, depending on exactly how competitive you want to be the answer you might hear most often is "bring Rowboat".
That said, there are generally two ways most Raven Guard lists work out. Either pure gunline, or gunline plus a sizable infiltrate bomb (with or without Lias)
Your gunline is backed up by a Captain (almost always upgraded to a CM) and a Lieutenant with the Storm of Fire Warlord trait, buffing as many strong shooting units as you can.
Gunlines generally come in two flavors, either Devastator based with the Relic Banner, or vehicle based with Dreadnoughts, Predators. Both styles typically run multiple twin Assault Cannon Razorbacks simply due to being so good.
If you want to run a bomb, you infiltrate/deep strike multiple close range threats using either Lias Issodon from FW or the RG stratagem. Even with this you usually see shooting units like grav devs, Sternguard or aggressors over assault units, as they're so easy to block with a screen.
Depends what you want out of the list. Those are all solid choices for a list though.
Fluff wise you want Librarians though.
I really want to focus on a shooty list because right now I think that close combat isn't the way to go. I'm looking for some competitive advice because I want to win more matches xD.
What are your current lists looking like? It’s against the popular opinion, but the space marine games I’ve won have used a lot of boots on the ground. Either a bunch of 5 man squads with heavy weapons, or intercession supported by hellblasters. Maybe it’s just because no one expects it. We also use a lot of terrain, which I’m not sure everyone does.
Looks like no good showings for SM at the SoCal open. Everything kinda got ran over by chaos, AM etc.. Lots of smite and bodies. I think sheer weight of fire with a large screen is a must. Could just be one event syndrome with the bad showing or the meta is shifting.
. But, is what it is.
I'm going to give it a few more matches and see how it goes. I think what really hurt was the fact that you can still smite units that are locked in melee. With a horde army you can slow down an enemy unit and spam it into oblivion. Sad day.
