For ravenguard you want an army that’s all infantry, dreadnoughts and flyers. Anything that doesn’t get the CT (eg tanks) will attract far more fire. If people are shoooting at razorbacks in turn one then you may as well play another chapter.
Raven guard are therefore a really good option for primaris armies. There’s great synergy with the durability of their infantry and the extra -1 to hit. Hellblasters and intercessors are improved a lot.
Meanwhile aggressors are a great options for infiltration. Setting up within 18” of a target lets them fire an immense number of shots on turn one. It can also work to infiltrate characters, especially if there’s a relic to be had.
Dreadnoughts then provide your heavy guns and some cc power too. Contemptors are probably the best fit.
If you’re signed up to Warhammer tv you can check out my friend’s rift stalkers (raven guard successors) in action in game 5 of heat 1 of the ukgt. He’s up against Bobby G and a tactical/razorback spam list. Makes it look pretty unfair.
I don't understand why would contemptors be a better option: the kheres assault cannon is just 24" while a venerable can have both twin las and assault cannon. Sure the comptemport is more resilient but.. or there s something else i m missing? I'm not a big fan of primaris altought an aggressor squad could be interesting in a blood raven list.
The Contemptor can be run as a Mortis and take double weapons and a Carapace Cyclone Missile Launcher. With two Kheres and the CML, the Contemptor Mortis is a resilient beast.
Spado wrote: I don't understand why would contemptors be a better option: the kheres assault cannon is just 24" while a venerable can have both twin las and assault cannon. Sure the comptemport is more resilient but.. or there s something else i m missing? I'm not a big fan of primaris altought an aggressor squad could be interesting in a blood raven list.
The Comtemptor also moves faster than normal Dreads, also punches harder. If you take some big buff guy like Guiliman and not just want to simply sit and shoot with Razorback spam (like when you face Admech Dakka Robot spam or IGLR / Artilery spam or Fire Prism Spam / Wave Serpent Spam, which will all easily outgun marine Razorback spam list), the Comtemptors spam maybe a good addition, especially when you march them (3 or more of them) up field with Guiliman and some Techmarine riding bike.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The Contemptor can be run as a Mortis and take double weapons and a Carapace Cyclone Missile Launcher. With two Kheres and the CML, the Contemptor Mortis is a resilient beast.
Take the Relic Contemptor; 2 more wounds, 6+FNP, same (and more) weapon options. If you want an assault one you take two CCW and it rerolls hits of 1.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The Contemptor can be run as a Mortis and take double weapons and a Carapace Cyclone Missile Launcher. With two Kheres and the CML, the Contemptor Mortis is a resilient beast.
Take the Relic Contemptor; 2 more wounds, 6+FNP, same (and more) weapon options. If you want an assault one you take two CCW and it rerolls hits of 1.
Don't bother with the two melee weapons but otherwise yeah the Relic one is so much better as a whole.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The Contemptor can be run as a Mortis and take double weapons and a Carapace Cyclone Missile Launcher. With two Kheres and the CML, the Contemptor Mortis is a resilient beast.
Take the Relic Contemptor; 2 more wounds, 6+FNP, same (and more) weapon options. If you want an assault one you take two CCW and it rerolls hits of 1.
I guess I never really looked at it. As long as I can take my 2x Kheres+CML, I am all for it.
The relic one is better, but it costs a lot more points, is a relic, and relies on whether FW rules are allowed. I think it's likely that we'll see events starting to ban Forgeworld, given the disproportionate power it brings to some other units (though the relic contemptor itself is fine).
In any case, I still like the basic contemptor. It does one thing - hit stuff with a dreadnought combat weapon - better than anything else. I do include the ironclad, relic contemptor and leviathan in "anything else".
The great thing about the contemptor is its combination of reasonable price, high speed, WS2+ and S7. For the same price as an ironclad, or less, you do more damage in combat against the majority of targets, thanks to hitting and wounding on a 2+ where the ironclad needs a 3+. S7 matters a lot when so many vehicles are T7.
The trade-off is firepower, which contemptors lack. The kheres isn't awful but it's clearly no rival to a twin lascannon. This isn't too bad though, because the contemptor spends a lot of most games advancing, locked in cc or, due to the inherently risky nature of its mission, dead. So it's much better not to have spent a lot of points on guns for it.
Mandragola wrote: The relic one is better, but it costs a lot more points, is a relic, and relies on whether FW rules are allowed. I think it's likely that we'll see events starting to ban Forgeworld, given the disproportionate power it brings to some other units (though the relic contemptor itself is fine).
In any case, I still like the basic contemptor. It does one thing - hit stuff with a dreadnought combat weapon - better than anything else. I do include the ironclad, relic contemptor and leviathan in "anything else".
The great thing about the contemptor is its combination of reasonable price, high speed, WS2+ and S7. For the same price as an ironclad, or less, you do more damage in combat against the majority of targets, thanks to hitting and wounding on a 2+ where the ironclad needs a 3+. S7 matters a lot when so many vehicles are T7.
The trade-off is firepower, which contemptors lack. The kheres isn't awful but it's clearly no rival to a twin lascannon. This isn't too bad though, because the contemptor spends a lot of most games advancing, locked in cc or, due to the inherently risky nature of its mission, dead. So it's much better not to have spent a lot of points on guns for it.
It isn't that many more points and the Relic rule is easily walked around. Plus nobody cares about whether you're using FW or not unless you're one of those stubborn people from 4th edition that doesn't allow other people to have fun.
Mandragola wrote: The relic one is better, but it costs a lot more points, is a relic, and relies on whether FW rules are allowed. I think it's likely that we'll see events starting to ban Forgeworld, given the disproportionate power it brings to some other units (though the relic contemptor itself is fine).
In any case, I still like the basic contemptor. It does one thing - hit stuff with a dreadnought combat weapon - better than anything else. I do include the ironclad, relic contemptor and leviathan in "anything else".
The great thing about the contemptor is its combination of reasonable price, high speed, WS2+ and S7. For the same price as an ironclad, or less, you do more damage in combat against the majority of targets, thanks to hitting and wounding on a 2+ where the ironclad needs a 3+. S7 matters a lot when so many vehicles are T7.
The trade-off is firepower, which contemptors lack. The kheres isn't awful but it's clearly no rival to a twin lascannon. This isn't too bad though, because the contemptor spends a lot of most games advancing, locked in cc or, due to the inherently risky nature of its mission, dead. So it's much better not to have spent a lot of points on guns for it.
It isn't that many more points and the Relic rule is easily walked around. Plus nobody cares about whether you're using FW or not unless you're one of those stubborn people from 4th edition that doesn't allow other people to have fun.
It’s 37 points more. The relic rule starts to matter a lot if you want to have more than one of them. Those 37 points buy a dread that hits no harder in cc than the standard contemptor.
I wish that FW wrote good rules, but they don’t. They just don’t have the resources to test their rules at all, so when they suddenly had to make rules for hundreds of units st the start of 8th they produced some real trash. Go play at game against Aetaos’rau’keres and let me know how much “fun” you had.
The relic contemptor isn’t that bad. For me, it’s more than I want to spend. The mortis is a good lascannons platform, especially for raven guard.
Mandragola wrote: The relic one is better, but it costs a lot more points, is a relic, and relies on whether FW rules are allowed. I think it's likely that we'll see events starting to ban Forgeworld, given the disproportionate power it brings to some other units (though the relic contemptor itself is fine).
In any case, I still like the basic contemptor. It does one thing - hit stuff with a dreadnought combat weapon - better than anything else. I do include the ironclad, relic contemptor and leviathan in "anything else".
The great thing about the contemptor is its combination of reasonable price, high speed, WS2+ and S7. For the same price as an ironclad, or less, you do more damage in combat against the majority of targets, thanks to hitting and wounding on a 2+ where the ironclad needs a 3+. S7 matters a lot when so many vehicles are T7.
The trade-off is firepower, which contemptors lack. The kheres isn't awful but it's clearly no rival to a twin lascannon. This isn't too bad though, because the contemptor spends a lot of most games advancing, locked in cc or, due to the inherently risky nature of its mission, dead. So it's much better not to have spent a lot of points on guns for it.
It isn't that many more points and the Relic rule is easily walked around. Plus nobody cares about whether you're using FW or not unless you're one of those stubborn people from 4th edition that doesn't allow other people to have fun.
It’s 37 points more. The relic rule starts to matter a lot if you want to have more than one of them. Those 37 points buy a dread that hits no harder in cc than the standard contemptor.
I wish that FW wrote good rules, but they don’t. They just don’t have the resources to test their rules at all, so when they suddenly had to make rules for hundreds of units st the start of 8th they produced some real trash. Go play at game against Aetaos’rau’keres and let me know how much “fun” you had.
The relic contemptor isn’t that bad. For me, it’s more than I want to spend. The mortis is a good lascannons platform, especially for raven guard.
37 more points for two additional wounds, a 6+ FNP, and more options. Its absolutely better than the base Contemptor.
Okay, need a bit of help. I really want to make a list that is nothing but Terminators, Dreadnoughts and maybe a Land Raider and Predator or two. What would be the best Codex Chapter to run that as?
And what would be a good list for that kind of theme? I know it most likely won't be super competitive, but it just sounds fun.
Depends the loadout. If you're doing Assault Terminators, you might be better off with Black Templars. Tactical Terminators can go with many of them actually. MAYBE Ultramarines for them.
A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.
Other choices are:
Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.
guys I have my fw index here and I don't see the option of a CML for the contemptor, I must be blind or something... Is it an option available just if you play it in 30k matches?
Spado wrote: guys I have my fw index here and I don't see the option of a CML for the contemptor, I must be blind or something... Is it an option available just if you play it in 30k matches?
It was added in the FAQ. Enjoy to your hearts content.
What is the best load-out for a tactical squad? I have 30 mkIII space marines still in the box and some juicy FW weapons (plasma, combi-plasma, heavy flamer, combi-flamer) and some devastator weapons, everything but the lascannon and missile launcher. What is your advice guys? At the moment I was thinking about combi-plasma for the sergeant and maybe the plasma cannon for one marine. Still keep in mind that I'm proxying my blood angels as blood ravens using ravenguard chapter tactics.
Thank you in advice.
Spado wrote: What is the best load-out for a tactical squad? I have 30 mkIII space marines still in the box and some juicy FW weapons (plasma, combi-plasma, heavy flamer, combi-flamer) and some devastator weapons, everything but the lascannon and missile launcher. What is your advice guys? At the moment I was thinking about combi-plasma for the sergeant and maybe the plasma cannon for one marine. Still keep in mind that I'm proxying my blood angels as blood ravens using ravenguard chapter tactics.
Thank you in advice.
Plasma and combo-plasma are good. Grab cannons make useful heavy weapons. I’m not sure close combat stuff is needed, but a power sword wouldn’t hurt.
I've been using 5 man teams with lascannon or grav cannon with a cc weapon for sarge. Don't forget to cower in cover for 2+ armor vs shooting. Combis are too costly for my purposes.
Martel732 wrote: I've been using 5 man teams with lascannon or grav cannon with a cc weapon for sarge. Don't forget to cower in cover for 2+ armor vs shooting. Combis are too costly for my purposes.
I agree with this. Lascannons in Tact squads are exceptionally good if running Salamanders and Grav Cannons synergise really well with most tactical squads. Storm Bolters are also a worthy upgrade.
I find the double plasma expensive and not that great. If I want a Plasma squad I'll run Hellblasters or a Vet squad.
I've switched from RG to IH and finding it a lot more useful in terms of survivability, which is where I'm always feeling weak with SM. Staying 12"+ away really doesn't play into it much beyond first turn, apart from your long-range guys. IH is much more useful for your infantry/bikers I find, particularly terminators. Salamanders are also really good for getting that extra damage in and saving your CP for other things.
Certainly depends on who/what you are playing, but that's been my experience.
I really, really hope we get Chapter Tactics extended to apply to vehicles in Chapter Approved, feels like we're missing out on a lot of benefits compared to the elves/guard atm.
Flood wrote: I've switched from RG to IH and finding it a lot more useful in terms of survivability, which is where I'm always feeling weak with SM. Staying 12"+ away really doesn't play into it much beyond first turn, apart from your long-range guys. IH is much more useful for your infantry/bikers I find, particularly terminators. Salamanders are also really good for getting that extra damage in and saving your CP for other things.
Certainly depends on who/what you are playing, but that's been my experience.
I really, really hope we get Chapter Tactics extended to apply to vehicles in Chapter Approved, feels like we're missing out on a lot of benefits compared to the elves/guard atm.
We are definitely headed back to 2nd ed at this rate.
Spado wrote: What is the best load-out for a tactical squad? I have 30 mkIII space marines still in the box and some juicy FW weapons (plasma, combi-plasma, heavy flamer, combi-flamer) and some devastator weapons, everything but the lascannon and missile launcher. What is your advice guys? At the moment I was thinking about combi-plasma for the sergeant and maybe the plasma cannon for one marine. Still keep in mind that I'm proxying my blood angels as blood ravens using ravenguard chapter tactics.
Thank you in advice.
Always 5 men, with free useful sergeants now there's even less reason to go above minimum than before. Sergeant should always have a ranged weapon and a melee weapon, pistols seem a lot less useful than chainswords.
Depending on what role you expect the squad to have, I lean towards double Plasma out of a Razorback, or Lascannon and Stormbolter. I think Scouts should be your first three troop choices in general, but if you're going for a brigade I can see Tacs being a contender for slots 4-6.
I use 7-man devastator teams with 2 ablative wounds. It serves me to survive 1st turn. Best use I got for those 50 points I had around. Devastators attract insane amounts of attention from my opponents
Martel732 wrote: Because those are easy heavy weapons to remove.
That's why the prime loadout is 2 Heavy Weapons at minimum with the Cherub or 3 Heavy Weapons at 6 dudes. Still no point to the Tactical Marine as long as I can do that.
Always 5 men, with free useful sergeants now there's even less reason to go above minimum than before. Sergeant should always have a ranged weapon and a melee weapon, pistols seem a lot less useful than chainswords.
Depending on what role you expect the squad to have, I lean towards double Plasma out of a Razorback, or Lascannon and Stormbolter. I think Scouts should be your first three troop choices in general, but if you're going for a brigade I can see Tacs being a contender for slots 4-6.
I still don't know how to use scouts: generally I place them around my troops to deny these aggressive deep strike but they literally deal 0 damage beside these lucky 6's which I don't get very often. How do you use them?
Always 5 men, with free useful sergeants now there's even less reason to go above minimum than before. Sergeant should always have a ranged weapon and a melee weapon, pistols seem a lot less useful than chainswords.
Depending on what role you expect the squad to have, I lean towards double Plasma out of a Razorback, or Lascannon and Stormbolter. I think Scouts should be your first three troop choices in general, but if you're going for a brigade I can see Tacs being a contender for slots 4-6.
I still don't know how to use scouts: generally I place them around my troops to deny these aggressive deep strike but they literally deal 0 damage beside these lucky 6's which I don't get very often. How do you use them?
They're cheap and efficient bubble wrap that can be deployed anywhere to do that job basically.
I'm personally a fan of shotguns if I'm offensive with them. 4 Shotguns and a Combi-Plasma is pretty darn great. CCW works well and so does the snipers + ML. I just wouldn't bother with Bolters. We can more Bolters elsewhere, and better ones to boot.
I find it really interesting that there are such distinct camps favouring either scouts, tactical marines or intercessors for troops.
The guy who won heat 1 of the UKGT a few weeks ago had 4 (I think, or possibly 5) ultramarine tactical squads with lascannons as his troops. The guy who came second had 3 ravenguard intercessor squads. There were quite a lot of scouts around too.
All troop options are viable. The different units are not all the same though and can't be used in the same ways. I think that my least favourite kind is probably the 5 man double plasma suicide squad. It isn't particularly cheap, it doesn't do all that much damage and it only gets to fire once (if at all) before it gets killed.
There's definitely something to be said for a 55 point scout squad armed with whatever junk you want to give them. They open up deployment shenanigans that nobody else can really duplicate.
On the other hand, it's not actually necessary to deploy forward to bubble wrap your army. You can achieve the same result by deploying the units you want to protect further back, and putting other stuff along the front - stuff like intercessors.
Actually my favourite units for bubble wrap are flyers and repulsors.- at least against people who want to charge you - not against someone with 10 wraithguard coming out of the webway!.The great thing about them is that they can't easily be charged by people coming out of deep strike, and they are very tough to shoot dead. Nobody wants to overcharge plasma guns at a hard-to-hit flyer.
Intercessors are my favourite troops because they kill the most stuff. On the face of it they don't look all that dangerous but over the course of a game their damage stacks up. The huge advantage they have over other troop types is that they stay alive for much longer. It requires a serious investment of firepower to remove an intercessor squad that's in cover and far away, so people don't bother. So they get to keep plugging away, and sometimes step up to rapid fire and charge people. It's pretty handy to be twice as tough and do twice as much damage as any other troop option in cc as well.
And of course you can also use them as bubble wrap. The difference is that, unlike scouts or tacticals, some of them will often survive, hit back if charged, and continue to play a part in the game afterwards.
Intercessors aren't good at killing the units I care most about, and give up points FAST to 2+ damage weapons. I think they are too expensive at 20 ppm for how 8th ed plays. I think intercessor kill the LEAST stuff on a per point basis, which makes them poor.
I was in the Intercessor camp but once my opponents wiser up and started bringing 2D damage my opinion soured in a hurry, and I’ve switched to Tacticals. I may buy some Scouts yet.
They really are. I was using them extensively against death Guard to try and brute force my way past DR rolls, and that tactic goes both ways so my Primaris are basically benchwarmers now and I spent a couple hundred bucks on mini marines lol.
Well, or maybe just volume of fire / attacks, for those who consider Primaris Marine are tough, I think they haven't notice the feel of confronting Ad Mech Dakka robot or hordes of Tzaangors / Genestealers.
Well, or maybe just volume of fire / attacks, for those who consider Primaris Marine are tough, I think they haven't notice the feel of confronting Ad Mech Dakka robot or hordes of Tzaangors / Genestealers.
Yep, I've noticed those things. It takes exactly twice as much firepower to kill primaris guys with that kind of weapon as it takes to kill tactical marines. Scouts die more easily.
I'm not saying that intercessors are invincible. I'm saying they are tougher than other troops. They cost only slightly more than a sniper scout squad or a tactical squad with equipment.
2D weapons do exist, but if people are using them on your intercessors in the early game then that's probably a good thing, because they are ignoring your more valuable stuff. My experience is that people fire their big guns at higher-priority targets than intercessors, who end up on the receiving end of stuff like bolters, lasguns and assorted close combat weapons. The vast majority of these do 1 damage.
Martel732 wrote: Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.
Had a unit of ad mech destroyers 1 shot my interessors unit of 10. Then I 1 shot their destroyers with 4 lascannons from my repulsor. I guess I should call myself fortunate he didn't kill my 340 point tank and isntead killed my 204 point troop unit. In the end though he made the right choice - if those 10 interssessors got into melle he was done for. In general - Things that are good at killing intersessors are good at killing everything in the game. So because intersessors are actually hard to kill by anti infantry weapons they draw dedicated anti tank fire. This is all I need them to do really. As with everything in this game - they do a lot better the more units of them you take.
Martel732 wrote: Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.
They aren't though. There really isn't a lot of difference between 101 points for an intercessor squad, 90 for scout snipers or 88 for a double plasma tactical squad. That 13 point difference isn't enough to go from a disposable unit to one that you really need to look after.
Now of course you can field 55 or 65 point units. But they have so little effect on the game that they're almost purely a tax. I'd rather pay 300 points for units that can do stuff than 165 for units that can't.
You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?
Tactical marines with a special weapon do more over the course of a game than intercessors ever will, and have ablative wounds to protect the good guns.
Intercessors cost more than a Sternguard; more durable against small arms fire but the Sternguard has almost twice the output of firepower for 1 point less. I think most opponents would call Sternguard a valuable target; they’re cheaper than Intercessors.
On another note, I tried out a pair ok Bike squads, 3 man units with 2 meltaguns each. They were gold; their movement really can’t be understated, and a Storm Bolter on the sergeant means they can put pressure on chaff as well. Playing Maelstrom having multiple fast moving units was the key to victory.
Martel732 wrote: Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.
They aren't though. There really isn't a lot of difference between 101 points for an intercessor squad, 90 for scout snipers or 88 for a double plasma tactical squad. That 13 point difference isn't enough to go from a disposable unit to one that you really need to look after.
Now of course you can field 55 or 65 point units. But they have so little effect on the game that they're almost purely a tax. I'd rather pay 300 points for units that can do stuff than 165 for units that can't.
My 55 pt scout squads are what let me beat Magnus in every game I play against him, by screening him and whatever other aggressive elements they have from getting to my tanks.
Dying so other things don't is an EXTREMELY important role.
Martel732 wrote: Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.
They aren't though. There really isn't a lot of difference between 101 points for an intercessor squad, 90 for scout snipers or 88 for a double plasma tactical squad. That 13 point difference isn't enough to go from a disposable unit to one that you really need to look after.
Now of course you can field 55 or 65 point units. But they have so little effect on the game that they're almost purely a tax. I'd rather pay 300 points for units that can do stuff than 165 for units that can't.
We can agree to disagree. I think intercessors don't do much for their points.
Intercessors don't do much offensively in range for the points, but there's a lot to be said when the only real effective killer for them is Plasma that needs to be overcharged, Autocannons, and various AT weapons. This is why they're a better static bubble wrap whereas Scouts are one that can be placed more offensively.
Regarding melee it's a differing story. You need to inflict 2 Wounds for them to lose 2 attacks. That ain't bad. They degrade more slowly.
When it comes to Ints and durability, I generally think that durability on the lowest priority target, especially on a unit with a small foot print and no deployment options, doesn't matter much when most games are decided by turn 3.
Slugfest games are where Intercessors excel, but it seems much more common that one side runs away with the game, leaving their durability under used. I'd rather have extra utility from Scouts, or extra damage from Tacs.
Edit: I am at least appreciative that this is something worth discussion and one troop choice doesn't run circles around all the others. I'm really hoping Chapter Approved doesn't come around and massively slash prices on all the new stuff to try and sell models. Some cuts may be okay, like the Redemptor, but I hope they know better than to make 15 point Intercessors.
Martel732 wrote: Offense/pt is the biggest marine problem, though. This is why i dislike primaris in general.
They solve the defensive problem though, which is why I like them. I have other things for offense like Sternguard.
I remain very, very skeptical. Almost every game against primaris has ended with me curb stomping them. Because they can't kill my models. The functional firepower of a Repulsor is a joke for the cost. Since I've given up on CC, primaris marines are an easy win.
Also, I play against a LOT of Nidzilla atm, and the harpy's gun makes a mockery of all things Primaris. Even their defensive advantages are only situational.
18 pts for a single shot is terrible utility. Is 15 that much better? It makes them die twice as fast against AP 0 weapons. I don't know. Non-ratling snipers are just trash in general. I guess sniper drones are good, too, but they are at least Str 5.
Bremon wrote: You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?
Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?
I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.
Snipers are an annoyance to get people a bit paranoid with their characters. They are disposable trash. I want them to die so other things don’t die. If they are harder to kill than Sternguard...vanguard...devastators...etc. then odds are my sacrificial units won’t be sacrificed to anything. Using them as deepstrike denial using their deployment special rules (that you’re paying for) means they get deployed forward compared to other things and means they’re the first things to be overran with melee, where their cloaks are useless.
We don’t all play soup. There are those who think don’t like the taste. I guess the answer to area denial in this thread is just a blanket statement that reads “conscripts”? I don’t see them in codex space marines though. I play marines, not Imperium.
If you are using scouts for a screen, why would you equip them with sniper rifles? In my mind if I am going to pay for those sniper rifles, I am going to put them in a position that they can get a few rounds of fire without having to worry about getting stuck in melee.
If their objective is to die in place of others, then I would think they are better suited with a boltgun or shotgun.
But they cost 4 pts less before they die. That's a lot more screening power. I don't care about plinking characters. I'm trying to take what they are buffing.
Martel732 wrote: Intercessors are valuable, though. That's the problem.
They aren't though. There really isn't a lot of difference between 101 points for an intercessor squad, 90 for scout snipers or 88 for a double plasma tactical squad. That 13 point difference isn't enough to go from a disposable unit to one that you really need to look after.
Now of course you can field 55 or 65 point units. But they have so little effect on the game that they're almost purely a tax. I'd rather pay 300 points for units that can do stuff than 165 for units that can't.
My 55 pt scout squads are what let me beat Magnus in every game I play against him, by screening him and whatever other aggressive elements they have from getting to my tanks.
Dying so other things don't is an EXTREMELY important role.
Which is why conscripts are so powerful.
How exactly do you screen a flying unit that moves twice with 5 man squads? You really can't. Conscripts take up like 6x more space on the table than scouts do. That's why they are powerful. They aren't powerful so much anymore that you only need to kill half the squad to kill the whole unit though. Scouts can't screen - they take up too little space. They can screen for a smite but that's about it. Magnus can still fly over them and assault your tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Scouts took a major nerf this edition with the land speeder storm doubling in price - while losing the ability to jink - and losing it's blinding weapon. Scouts are actually at tactical squad levels of uselessness EXCEPT they cost less so are marginally less useless.
Scouts: Bubble wrap for Guilliman. 3 5-man squads with Sniper rifles and a ML. With the Guilly-buff those 12 snipers become a concern for enemy characters within 36”. 3 MLs become much more useful. Camo cloaks if you can deploy into cover.
Intercessors: If you play them, you need to be shooting the auxiliary grenade launcher EVERY turn. Its a 1 point ML.
If I’m fielding Guilly, I use scouts. If not, I use Intercessors. For SM, the troop tax really is a tax. That, or you are going to have a lot of Vanguards, Spearheads and Outriders.
The aux launcher is useful but missile launcher? Let’s keep our expectations in check. S6 -1AP D3 damage and S8 AP-2 D6 damage are considerably different beasts.
Bremon wrote: You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?
Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?
I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.
Because it only makes them MEQ while in cover. Garbage upgrade.
Right, so if you’re actually using them as snipers then it makes sense to give them cloaks. Snipers want to do their damage over several so you want them to live.
If you’re putting them in front of Magnus then it’s barely worth giving them weapons at all, let alone spending 20 points on sniper rifles.
There are no good answers here, because the marines have zero good screening units. Same reason the BA tactica thread has had no consensus for 10 years. No good answers.
Tacs really only have a place if you spam them with heavy weapons. That seems to be the only lists using them that are actually doing well.
Scouts are the best forward screen we have, and we need a screen most of the time. Snipers I am not sold on. I think they are very expensive for what they actually do... that being said I think running 2+ squads is the only way to run them if you are running them at all.
Intercessors are my favorite personally. Not because I think that they are better, but because of how I use them. I use them as my screen, and typically with the RG tactic as a Raptors player. They do a good job of drawing fire, and if not I assault with them. They are actually decent in combat with non dedicated cc units. Plus they have decent shooting and good durability. To leverage this you need to build your list to match though. As RG it's great because I can take a couple dreads and I am usually bringing some Hellblasters or Centurions as well... sometimes both. So the Intercessors are either left alone, saving my more important stuff, or the most likely option people are actually shooting 1d weapons at them. This is good because those 1d weapons would still hurt my other stuff too, so it lets them utilize their durability.
At the end of the day I start with 3 intercessor squads, and depending on how many points I need to cut when I am done list building I start turning them into scouts.
Bremon wrote: You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?
Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?
I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.
Because it only makes them MEQ while in cover. Garbage upgrade.
Right, so if you’re actually using them as snipers then it makes sense to give them cloaks. Snipers want to do their damage over several so you want them to live.
If you’re putting them in front of Magnus then it’s barely worth giving them weapons at all, let alone spending 20 points on sniper rifles.
It makes them a 15 point model with less survivability than a 13 point Tactical Marine, already not very survivable, for the price.
Bremon wrote: You mean 75 points for scout snipers right? Who uses camo cloaks?
Uh, why wouldn't you use camo cloaks? Using cover in general is important, so why not give scouts an effective 2+ in cover?
I run them on my sniper squad, and the returns have been more than worth the points invested.
Because it only makes them MEQ while in cover. Garbage upgrade.
Right, so if you’re actually using them as snipers then it makes sense to give them cloaks. Snipers want to do their damage over several so you want them to live.
If you’re putting them in front of Magnus then it’s barely worth giving them weapons at all, let alone spending 20 points on sniper rifles.
It makes them a 15 point model with less survivability than a 13 point Tactical Marine, already not very survivable, for the price.
Does that help put things into perspective?
I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I understand that scouts are not as tough as tactical marines, even with cloaks (at which point they cost 18 ppm).
Giving them sniper rifles and no cloaks turns them from a harmless blocking unit into a unit that poses a slight threat, but is still very easy to kill. That's not a good place to be. It makes sense to give them cloaks if you want them to live a while and actually get to shoot things.
Personally I'm still happy with my intercessors - particularly because they ignore cover anyway so scouts only get a 5+ save against me, regardless of their cloaks.
Tacs really only have a place if you spam them with heavy weapons. That seems to be the only lists using them that are actually doing well.
This is my experience too. Tactical squads are actually a decent place to put lascannons, because of the buffer before each gun dies. That's what the guy who won heat 1 used. There's some logic in this approach as you need some troops and you need some lascannons, so why not combine them?
This is relatively difficult to counter, as the units are happy to stay back and zap away, so they need a fair bit of attention to remove. The units are also cheap enough that you can use them as screens if you need to, especially against zerging armies that lascannons aren't brilliant against in the first place.
I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I understand that scouts are not as tough as tactical marines, even with cloaks (at which point they cost 18 ppm).
Giving them sniper rifles and no cloaks turns them from a harmless blocking unit into a unit that poses a slight threat, but is still very easy to kill. That's not a good place to be. It makes sense to give them cloaks if you want them to live a while and actually get to shoot things.
You're vastly overvaluing the damage output of sniper rifles and completely dismissing what 5 shotguns can do to some fairly important targets, like Genestealers.
Plus honestly they're just fine for survivability without the cloaks for the points. It's just an unnecessary cost that doesn't add a good value to the unit. Were it a 1 point upgrade sure.
Perth wrote: A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.
Other choices are:
Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.
Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with:
Terminator Squad [24 PL, 331pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
++ Total: [137 PL, 2000pts] ++
Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.
I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I understand that scouts are not as tough as tactical marines, even with cloaks (at which point they cost 18 ppm).
Giving them sniper rifles and no cloaks turns them from a harmless blocking unit into a unit that poses a slight threat, but is still very easy to kill. That's not a good place to be. It makes sense to give them cloaks if you want them to live a while and actually get to shoot things.
You're vastly overvaluing the damage output of sniper rifles and completely dismissing what 5 shotguns can do to some fairly important targets, like Genestealers.
Guilty as charged. I am indeed dismissing what 5 shotguns can do in that situation. They can kill 3 genestealers on average, if they are somehow able to get a shot off at close range. Doing this requires that they are within 6" of genestealers, which is problematic to say the least.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Plus honestly they're just fine for survivability without the cloaks for the points. It's just an unnecessary cost that doesn't add a good value to the unit. Were it a 1 point upgrade sure.
This is fair comment. Cloaks definitely are overpriced. A scout with a cloak clearly isn't worth more than a tactical marine. You could perhaps argue that their scouting ability mean that they'd be worth the same amount as a tactical marine if you gave them cloaks, but certainly not more.
Perth wrote: A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.
Other choices are:
Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.
Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with.
Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.
Painting ravenguard and iron hands armies is probably a pretty similar experience, I imagine!
Ravenguard really are very strong for the sort of approach you seem to be taking. -1 to hit is better for things like those dakka dreads than the extra 6+ save. It reduces the damage you take by considerably more. Remember that you have to take the 6+ save against each wound taken. If you have a dread with 2 wounds left and a lascannon does it 3 wounds you need to take 3 6+ saves and pass two of them to survive - which is improbable. If that lascannon misses you though, all is well.
They are also surprisingly good for terminators, due to their infiltration stratagem. You get to already be there before turn one starts, so you can walk forwards and make an easy charge of 4" rather than 9".
As mentioned above, I'm not at all a fan of scouts for your troops. Ultimately you're spending 342 points on units that you can't expect to achieve much. And your double battalion plan means taking 4 HQs, which is loads.
I think you'd be better off with a different set of detachments. A single battalion gives you plenty of CPs really. On the other hand if you're taking 4 HQs and 6 troops I'd consider going for a brigade. It's achievable for marines thanks to units like attack bikes and scout bikers, though not exactly easy.
A dilemma for ravenguard is that they tend to want a lot of infantry and dreadnoughts, to maximise the use of their CTs. That tends to mean they have a lot of units and no transports, resulting in a high number of drops. That doesn't work too well if your plan is to use their stratagem to infiltrate people near them - because those guys will quite often just get murdered in turn 1.
Bremon wrote: Pretty sure you know who has first turn before you place your SftS units; going first; put them close, going second; in cover or out of LOS.
Yeah I think you're right - but of course you do still want to go first. Knowing that you're going second lets you put your units somewhere safer, but they still won't be doing what you want them to do.
I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I understand that scouts are not as tough as tactical marines, even with cloaks (at which point they cost 18 ppm).
Giving them sniper rifles and no cloaks turns them from a harmless blocking unit into a unit that poses a slight threat, but is still very easy to kill. That's not a good place to be. It makes sense to give them cloaks if you want them to live a while and actually get to shoot things.
You're vastly overvaluing the damage output of sniper rifles and completely dismissing what 5 shotguns can do to some fairly important targets, like Genestealers.
Guilty as charged. I am indeed dismissing what 5 shotguns can do in that situation. They can kill 3 genestealers on average, if they are somehow able to get a shot off at close range. Doing this requires that they are within 6" of genestealers, which is problematic to say the least.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Plus honestly they're just fine for survivability without the cloaks for the points. It's just an unnecessary cost that doesn't add a good value to the unit. Were it a 1 point upgrade sure.
This is fair comment. Cloaks definitely are overpriced. A scout with a cloak clearly isn't worth more than a tactical marine. You could perhaps argue that their scouting ability mean that they'd be worth the same amount as a tactical marine if you gave them cloaks, but certainly not more.
Perth wrote: A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.
Other choices are:
Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.
Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with.
Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.
Painting ravenguard and iron hands armies is probably a pretty similar experience, I imagine!
Ravenguard really are very strong for the sort of approach you seem to be taking. -1 to hit is better for things like those dakka dreads than the extra 6+ save. It reduces the damage you take by considerably more. Remember that you have to take the 6+ save against each wound taken. If you have a dread with 2 wounds left and a lascannon does it 3 wounds you need to take 3 6+ saves and pass two of them to survive - which is improbable. If that lascannon misses you though, all is well.
They are also surprisingly good for terminators, due to their infiltration stratagem. You get to already be there before turn one starts, so you can walk forwards and make an easy charge of 4" rather than 9".
As mentioned above, I'm not at all a fan of scouts for your troops. Ultimately you're spending 342 points on units that you can't expect to achieve much. And your double battalion plan means taking 4 HQs, which is loads.
I think you'd be better off with a different set of detachments. A single battalion gives you plenty of CPs really. On the other hand if you're taking 4 HQs and 6 troops I'd consider going for a brigade. It's achievable for marines thanks to units like attack bikes and scout bikers, though not exactly easy.
A dilemma for ravenguard is that they tend to want a lot of infantry and dreadnoughts, to maximise the use of their CTs. That tends to mean they have a lot of units and no transports, resulting in a high number of drops. That doesn't work too well if your plan is to use their stratagem to infiltrate people near them - because those guys will quite often just get murdered in turn 1.
I see what your talking about with the Ravenguard Chapter Tactic, but the tough decision is how much it will benefit the Terminators I would be dropping in rapid fire range to get as many shots as possible. At that point I get the feeling the -1 to hit isn't going to be as useful as the potential of a 6+ save against rapid fire Overcharged Plasma.
With most of the infantry being Scouts, Strike from the Shadows doesn't seem to be as useful. I can also see your point about the wasted points on 4 HQ choices running two Battalions, but I like that it opens up the option of turning the generic Captain into a Chapter Master to maximize the effectiveness of the Storm Bolters and Power Fists, and give me more chances to interrupt combats to swing with the Terminators as many times as possible before death. That, and I like having 2 Librarians to give me more chances to try and shut down Psychic powers that will eat through the 2+/5++ save the Terminators have, I was thinking about running Jump Pack Librarians to save a few points, but the better save seems well worth the minor points increase. And the Chaplain seems worth it if I want to send both Terminator Squads to separate areas of the battlefield, and the LD bonus.
It is a tough decision though, I will have to proxy it a few times and see how it runs. I am thinking of going Bolter Scouts on half the squads to give the ones running more towards the back a little more range.
Perth wrote: A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.
Other choices are:
Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.
Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with:
Terminator Squad [24 PL, 331pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
++ Total: [137 PL, 2000pts] ++
Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.
I like where you're going, but I think I agree that two battalions might be a little much. After a little bit of playing around on battlescribe, this is what I came up with.
That comes out to 1870, which I just filled with three more terminators and some weapon upgrades, but you can play around with points and try to fit another Librarian in or mess with the Dreadnought weapons. I wholeheartedly recommend the Venerable upgrade though, not only is it more effective in my opinion, it's also more fluffy for this kind of list.
Bremon wrote: Pretty sure you know who has first turn before you place your SftS units; going first; put them close, going second; in cover or out of LOS.
Yeah I think you're right - but of course you do still want to go first. Knowing that you're going second lets you put your units somewhere safer, but they still won't be doing what you want them to do.
I'm sorry, would you mind explaining how to use SFTS? How do you "know who will go first"? Do you avoid playing with the Chapter-Approved +1 to roll to see who goes first? Or do you rely on seeing whoever has less drops? Or does SFTS come into play after the seize initiative roll?
Pregame rolls happen before the first battle round. Strike happens during the first battle round before the first turn. You therefore know the results of the pregame rolls before striking, but after electing to strike.
Perth wrote: A low unit count army with assault capable units like Terminators can make good use of the Raven Guard stratagem, as you're more likely to get the first turn and get T1 charges with your terminators. The CT will also help your Dreadnoughts survive incoming fire as they are advancing. That said, doing that is usually pretty CP intensive, so you may want to consider sneaking (pun 100% intended) in some Scouts to make a Batallion if you want to get more competitive with it.
Other choices are:
Black Templars: charge rerolls on Terminators and Melee Dreadnoughts.
Salamanders: Rerolls are huge for Dreadnoughts and terminators in melee.
Iron Hands: FNP isn't glamorous, but always useful.
Well, was playing around with lists and took your suggestion of throwing some Scouts into the mix. Here is what I came up with:
Terminator Squad [24 PL, 331pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
++ Total: [137 PL, 2000pts] ++
Like I said, I'm not looking for something super competitive, but fun and able to hold it's own. I like going with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic for the additional save and that it will be much easier to paint.
[/spoiler]
I like where you're going, but I think I agree that two battalions might be a little much. After a little bit of playing around on battlescribe, this is what I came up with.
That comes out to 1870, which I just filled with three more terminators and some weapon upgrades, but you can play around with points and try to fit another Librarian in or mess with the Dreadnought weapons. I wholeheartedly recommend the Venerable upgrade though, not only is it more effective in my opinion, it's also more fluffy for this kind of list.
I like your idea a lot as well, I didn't even think of running the Dreads as Venerable Dreads, that is a much more wise decision. I am going to start collecting the models to make a list similar to both what I came up with and what you came up with. Plan on buying 8 Dreads for this army. I will keep tinkering and see what I can come up with, using suggestions from you guys.
Adding a lieutenant to the above list would let you field it as a battalion and two vanguards - one comprising the terminators and a dread; the other with three dreads.
Vanguard dreadnoughts are pretty good. But what's really good if you're spamming shooty vehicles is to take predators. The killshot stratagem is seriously powerful. One venerable dread is probably better than one predator, but three predators are better than three venerable dreads.
Stand your captain with storm of fire and a lieutenant next to them, and watch them gun things down. Screen with intercessors, preferably.
So what I'd suggest is taking a battalion with the two HQs and scouts (though personally I hate the scouts, but whatever). Take a vanguard with the terminators and a dreadnought, and then take a spearhead with a lieutenant and three predators.
Any spare points should be spent upgrading scouts to intercessors, in my opinion.
Haven't read the whole thread (I don't really play SM); but after reading about discussions on Auspex Scan/Forewarned stratagems (shooting units after they deep strike), it got me thinking about Drop Pods.
Based on my reading of the Drop Pod Assault rule, and the stratagems; the Drop Pod is doing the deep strike, and the units inside are just disembarking [which means they can't be shot at]. The fact it happens at the same time is just a bonus.
You're still paying ~100 points for a Storm Bolter/Deathwind Launcher; but immunity to deep striking may become relevant depending on how prevalent Eldar/Dark Reapers become in general. Also, the Drop Pod takes up space on the board, which means you have to charge it to really move past it's doors (if you use them) - this could randomly delay certain enemies/shield you from charges depending on how you place it.
Perhaps taking a single Drop Pod+squad dedicated to shooting up squishy backline units could give you some flexibility in a scene where you can't/don't want to change up your army list between games.
fe40k wrote: Haven't read the whole thread (I don't really play SM); but after reading about discussions on Auspex Scan/Forewarned stratagems (shooting units after they deep strike), it got me thinking about Drop Pods.
Based on my reading of the Drop Pod Assault rule, and the stratagems; the Drop Pod is doing the deep strike, and the units inside are just disembarking [which means they can't be shot at]. The fact it happens at the same time is just a bonus.
You're still paying ~100 points for a Storm Bolter/Deathwind Launcher; but immunity to deep striking may become relevant depending on how prevalent Eldar/Dark Reapers become in general. Also, the Drop Pod takes up space on the board, which means you have to charge it to really move past it's doors (if you use them) - this could randomly delay certain enemies/shield you from charges depending on how you place it.
Perhaps taking a single Drop Pod+squad dedicated to shooting up squishy backline units could give you some flexibility in a scene where you can't/don't want to change up your army list between games.
For what it's worth, in 7th Interceptor was able to target the unit that disembarked. I'd expect it to still be the same in 8th as the wording is similar.
An interesting point on 3 Predators vs 3 Venerable Dreads. The Predators do put out more firepower, even without the stratagem, but I'm not so sure they're an auto-take without CTs. The Raven Guard trait in particular is huge for shooty dreads, and the Salamander or Ultramarine CT is worth considering as well. Not to mention costing 100 points more.
The big nail in the coffin for Predators is that everyone knows about Kill Shot, and killing a Predator is not difficult. So you can plan on getting one turn if you go first from Kill Shot, then you're back to normal predators.
I'm not saying one is strictly better, but I think it's far from an auto choice.
Alright; well, if I've learned anything from the "Mobile Fortress"/Battlewagon debacle, it's to play things as conservatively as possible until a ruling comes out - which means they can be shot as they come out of the drop pod.
Due to marines being an army that gets screwed out of CT-buffed vehicles I find Ven Dreads superior to Preds, but I have 2 of each. I love the look of marine tanks.
What do you think of a stormraven equipped with hurricane bolters, twin heavy bolters and twin asscan ? Would it be wasting a precious storm or would it be a good anti troops unit ?
So, if the rumored points decrease of Plasma Exterminator Inceptors (now 59 points) is true, would they be worth taking at this point? That is some pretty decent mobile Anti-Tank/Monster with the ability to deep strike. 177 pts for a squad doesn't seem that bad.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, if the rumored points decrease of Plasma Exterminator Inceptors (now 59 points) is true, would they be worth taking at this point? That is some pretty decent mobile Anti-Tank/Monster with the ability to deep strike. 177 pts for a squad doesn't seem that bad.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, if the rumored points decrease of Plasma Exterminator Inceptors (now 59 points) is true, would they be worth taking at this point? That is some pretty decent mobile Anti-Tank/Monster with the ability to deep strike. 177 pts for a squad doesn't seem that bad.
Thoughts?
What rumors?
There is a rumor thread that has Chapter Approved points changes. Several Primaris Units got a price decrease.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, if the rumored points decrease of Plasma Exterminator Inceptors (now 59 points) is true, would they be worth taking at this point? That is some pretty decent mobile Anti-Tank/Monster with the ability to deep strike. 177 pts for a squad doesn't seem that bad.
Thoughts?
What rumors?
There is a rumor thread that has Chapter Approved points changes. Several Primaris Units got a price decrease.
They finally figured out that primaris is a huge dumpster fire?
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, if the rumored points decrease of Plasma Exterminator Inceptors (now 59 points) is true, would they be worth taking at this point? That is some pretty decent mobile Anti-Tank/Monster with the ability to deep strike. 177 pts for a squad doesn't seem that bad.
Thoughts?
What rumors?
There is a rumor thread that has Chapter Approved points changes. Several Primaris Units got a price decrease.
They finally figured out that primaris is a huge dumpster fire?
Yeah, it is pretty sad their flagship Marine models for 8th are so mediocre it is embarrassing. A bunch of us were talking about how to try and make a Primaris centric list in the store last weekend... We couldn't really come up with anything that was pretty much Primaris only that looked like it was any good besides Ravenguard Hellblaster spam.
18 pt intercessors would be a good start. At 20 ppm, tacticals still have too many upsides. Projecting only S4 out to 30" is not worth 100 pts/squad. Oh, and the overcharge plasma problem.
Here are the rumored price changes. The Aggressor and Intercessor changes make up for the changes in the Razorback.
Points Per Model
Aggressor 21 (-4)
Chaplain in Terminator Armour 100 (-15)
Drop Pod 83 (-10)
Inceptor 25 (-5)
Intercessor 18 (-2)
Librarian 88 (-5)
Librarian in Terminator 120 (-23)
Razorback 70 (+5)
Stalker 75 (-5)
Stormraven 192 (+20)
Tartaros Terminator 26
Terminator Assault 26
Terminus Ultra 250
Vindicator 125 (-10)
Whirlwind 70 (-5)
Tl;dr: Roby, TwinAssault RB and Stromraven go up in points, Primaris and Terminatorarmour get's cheaper.
Interceptor with Bolter: 45 (was 60)
Interceptor with Plasma 59 (was 86)
Aggressor with Bolter 33 (was 43)
Stormraven with TwinAssaultCannon, two HurricaneBolter, Twin HeavyBolter and StormstrikeMissileLauncher 315 (was 274)
casvalremdeikun wrote: Here are the rumored price changes. The Aggressor and Intercessor changes make up for the changes in the Razorback.
Points Per Model
Aggressor 21 (-4)
Chaplain in Terminator Armour 100 (-15)
Drop Pod 83 (-10)
Inceptor 25 (-5)
Intercessor 18 (-2)
Librarian 88 (-5)
Librarian in Terminator 120 (-23)
Razorback 70 (+5)
Stalker 75 (-5)
Stormraven 192 (+20)
Tartaros Terminator 26
Terminator Assault 26
Terminus Ultra 250
Vindicator 125 (-10)
Whirlwind 70 (-5)
Tl;dr: Roby, TwinAssault RB and Stromraven go up in points, Primaris and Terminatorarmour get's cheaper.
Interceptor with Bolter: 45 (was 60)
Interceptor with Plasma 59 (was 86)
Aggressor with Bolter 33 (was 43)
Stormraven with TwinAssaultCannon, two HurricaneBolter, Twin HeavyBolter and StormstrikeMissileLauncher 315 (was 274)
If this is correct I suspect twin assault cannon loadouts will still be some of our best shooting, might end up changing my chassis too mortis dreads though. I'm happy Bobby G went up in points but I wish it was more than just 25. The Hurricane bolter change makes me sad but I understand it.
Love the Predator autocannon and Librarian changes. I always thought it was weird a normal Libby cost the same as a Primaris Librarian with the same loadout. Vindicator change is interesting but I don't know if I'd run one.
It'll be interesting to see if these changes pan out.
Happy to see aggressors cheaper; they’re quite fragile but they’re fun. With nid monsters getting tougher quad las pred is still better than autocannon in my eyes. Sad to see the assault cannons get more expensive lol.
Huh, I wonder if any of these adjustments will be included in either the Blood Angels or Dark Angels Codexes. I would hate to have both Codexes I need for my armies (Guard & Blood Angels) need a FAQ the day/week after they come out.
Odd that they seem to be reducing the cost of boltstorm gauntlets but not flamestorm, when the latter are already worse. Assault marines really needed a price cut too.
Might put my Tartarus termies together at last. I’ve had a sprue kicking around since BoP came out. Still no idea what to equip them with.
Overall these look like very positive changes. My army will get a fair bit bigger as a result.
Inceptors are clearly the big winners here. The bolter ones are now at a price point where I need to seriously consider them.
Meanwhile it’s good to see the assault cannons go up. The combo of ACs and Bobby G is too strong and too boring.
Edit: I've just had a look at the current points values. I don't know if the rumoured changes are right, but the changes (+ or - X points) are often way off. Auto boltstorm gauntlets go down by 2 points, not 6, for example.
While I'm happy that the Storm Raven got a point increase as it deserved one, I am really not happy about the twin assault cannon and hurricane bolter price increase as it punishes other platforms that are not OP. Namely, the LR Crusader.
Nobody but me has been using the Crusader in my local meta, its not overpowered but because that particular Storm Raven loadout is, the Crusader is now more expensive. They should have just increased the price of the Raven, not its weapons. I'm pretty angry about that.
Hah, and Meltaguns still stays ultra expensive versus Plasma Guns. I do like that they are at least attempting to balance things out better, but some of these changes make me scratch my head.
Almost seems like they are just arbitrarily adjusting points just to see what happens on some of them.
Yeah I definitely agree that the assault cannon nerf is a problem.
The broken thing has been the combo of Bobby G with loads of assault cannons. That’s actually a rules issue, not a points issue. When a combo is broken you need to fix it, not make it more expensive. Otherwise you make the units worse outside of the combo, and nerf units that were nothing to do with it.
A lot of stuff is missing, which is odd. There are still a lot of overpriced units, like land speeders. Maybe next time.
Same here on Land Speeders, particularly Storms. I'd also like to see CMLs dropped to 40-45 points, Assault Marines to drop a point (or have full special/melee weapon access), Cataphractii Terminators to also get a small drop, and Ints to stay at 20 points, just lose the rules about not being able to get in transports, it's a stupid rule to sell Repulsors and everyone knows it.
That said, still taking the list with a huge grain of salt.
Also on a tangent, I wish they'd bump Bobby G up to 12 wounds. He is 15+ feet tall and even has the monster keyword, he shouldn't be able to hide behind a few guardsmen. Would solve a lot of the frustration people (including myself) have with him.
At which point he isn’t worth half the points Magnus and Morty are. There are some nids the size of a 2 storey house that are 9 wounds, and you’ve likely noticed ten Tac marines are a bit big for a rhino so we have to forgive the model scale a bit here and there.
biggest winner for chapter approved leaks.
assault bolter inceptors. 42 is not bad for a unit that can naturally deep strike with 2 assault heavy bolters. I'd really like to see their mortals on charge increased to a 4+ to go off to and then I think they are actually viable
Intersessors 18 points. Not bad - 10% drop in price might all us to fit another good unit into a list if taking something like 30 intersessors (this is what I do anyways)
Agressors - modest price drop for a unit that already has insane potential damage. how about we get a stratagem that lets them double tap even though they moved for 2 CP?
Vidicators - 125 points. Barely more than an assault cannon Razor now. Guilliman buffing these bad boys will absolutely destroy mech lists if you can screen for them.
Guilliman was an obvious increase - I actually expected 400.
Biggest losers
Dev Centurians - These guys need a friggen 40 points price drop. They were bumped up 10 points in the codex from the index....Like I get it that 2 las cannons and a d3 rocket launcher is a lot of firepower - but they have 3 wounds and not even an Invo save. Bump them to 6 wounds with a 5++ or drop the 40 points - up to you GW.
Repulsor - no price drop. I get it that these things have a lot of guns. It's just too easy to kill without an invo save or a 2+ save. Drop points or buff please.
Land raiders - No fly keyword - no invo save - Lets drop the points GW. With 4 las and 2 heavy bolters and reasonable toughness and a 10 man transport capacity - this thing is worth about 300 points - not the 340 that we are currently paying.
Land Speeders and storms. 30-40% point drop please.
I'd also like to see Primaris Champions given access to relics. A primaris captin with a primarchs wrath would be a lot of fun to play with. Currently it's a piece of junk wasting it's 2+ bs and can only have a power sword?
Land raiders - No fly keyword - no invo save - Lets drop the points GW. With 4 las and 2 heavy bolters and reasonable toughness and a 10 man transport capacity - this thing is worth about 300 points - not the 340 that we are currently paying.
Land Speeders and storms. 30-40% point drop please.
I'd also like to see Primaris Champions given access to relics. A primaris captin with a primarchs wrath would be a lot of fun to play with. Currently it's a piece of junk wasting it's 2+ bs and can only have a power sword?
I think the Land Raider should not be granted "fly", that would mean it can floated over infantry and broken building, which just feels not right. Instead, I propose to give it something like "Steel Behemorth" i.e. can shoot even it just fall back from combat. Furthermore, inv save may not be needee, but bump its wound numbers up to 20 would make it looks more fair. Currently, just inflict 8 wounds in 1st turn and it is basically crippled due to its movement will be halved. WTH. With the new proposal, it require around 10W to achieve that, which will offer it a breath to conduct what it need to do.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that Land Raiders be given fly - just that they are weak because they don't have it and need something else. So yeah, something like steel behemoth would do the job.
I actually don't think they really need an invulnerable. A 5++ would only matter against AP-4 weapons, and then only if you rolled a 5 for your save. That isn't a significant increase in survivability.
Anyway let's wait and see. So far we've only seen a rumour of points changes. It doesn't tell us one way or the other if they will change rules, and it may not be complete.
177pts for plasma Inceptors, and 135 for dakka Inceptors?
I really hope this is true! It would give Marines a great new fast attack option, and finally make viable one of my favourite new models from the Primaris line. I know a lot of people don't like them, but their high-speed-scram-jet-double-dakka badassery just seems very thematic to me. Something about their rounded profile looks like they're built to strike down from orbit.
With RGCT you can try to drop them in cover beyond 12" too, to try and get a bit more life out of them, as their CC is a desperate move, rather than a viable strategy imo.
Finally, this means that Primaris only attempts at list building get some actual viable -AP weapons to play with.
I'm trying to build up a space marine force slowly, what do you think of the following list as starting point to go from. I will play 750pt games once I get this list painted, then move up as I acquire and paint models.
Eventually I want to go full mechanized, and I would mostly be expanding in terms of vehicles. This list could serve as most of the core of infantry for larger games.
And speaking of the mediocrity of Primaris marines, I put some reivers in this list . I'm sure there are better choices, but the models are super cool, and they aren't BAD, per say.
Spoiler:
++ Auxiliary Support (CP -1) (Adeptus Mechanicus) [60 Pts] ++
The concept of this list is pretty simple, all the tacs go in the transports accompanied by the Lieutenant, while the Rangers and scouts grab backfield objectives and provide supporting fire. The Reivers can either distract and harass the enemy, or grab objectives as needed.
Also, my reasoning behind using the rangers is that they are cheaper than vanilla scouts, and if used as auxiliaries with the stygies forge world they can be somewhat resilient. Their long range guns are not bad, and as auxiliaries they can still re roll 1s once per game, and get cover in the open once per game using canticles. Not bad for 60pts and 1CP I would argue.
I'm trying to build up a space marine force slowly, what do you think of the following list as starting point to go from. I will play 750pt games once I get this list painted, then move up as I acquire and paint models.
Eventually I want to go full mechanized, and I would mostly be expanding in terms of vehicles. This list could serve as most of the core of infantry for larger games.
And speaking of the mediocrity of Primaris marines, I put some reivers in this list . I'm sure there are better choices, but the models are super cool, and they aren't BAD, per say.
Spoiler:
++ Auxiliary Support (CP -1) (Adeptus Mechanicus) [60 Pts] ++
The concept of this list is pretty simple, all the tacs go in the transports accompanied by the Lieutenant, while the Rangers and scouts grab backfield objectives and provide supporting fire. The Reivers can either distract and harass the enemy, or grab objectives as needed.
Also, my reasoning behind using the rangers is that they are cheaper than vanilla scouts, and if used as auxiliaries with the stygies forge world they can be somewhat resilient. Their long range guns are not bad, and as auxiliaries they can still re roll 1s once per game, and get cover in the open once per game using canticles. Not bad for 60pts and 1CP I would argue.
Thoughts?
++ Total: [750 Pts, 21 Pwr] ++
I'm not going to comment on the strength or weakness of the list because you seem to want to play casually with friends with units that you find fun and that's totally fine. Instead I'm just gonna mention units or upgrades that I like/dislike in your list.
The unit I dislike the most in the list is the Sniper scouts. Sniper rifles just don't do much for SM's this edition imo. Camo cloaks are also pretty expensive and not worth it for me.
You mention you wanted to add the Admech rangers for durability but in my experience scouts have been quite durable for their cost. Don't forget they're still toughness 4, Leadership 8 and have TSKNF.
Meltaguns just haven't really cut it for me this edition. They might fair better for you with Salamander CT but I'd go with Lascannons or Grav-Cannons(Lascannons with Salamanders). Not only do they have 4x the range of the melta but that Str 9 REALLY makes a difference on certain targets.
You should also very much consider investing in a Captain. SM's very much pivot around the ability to give their units rerolls.
I agree that the sniper scouts are not great this edition. 8th ed. cover makes camo cloaks pretty meh. I like the range on the sniper rifle, but I have to admit, other than liking the way the sniper squads look, I only decided on that load out because the box comes only with it. I like the idea of scout squads with an ML under Salamanders CT though, since it makes them fairly reliable. Maybe I should just get a regular scout squad and get an ML from another kit. For 75pts they would make ok objective campers.
The Admech are mostly because I find them cool, but also because I think they're pretty good for how cheap they are. I would argue they do the job of sniper scouts far better for the cost. Since with that range you aren't going to be taking advantage of the deployment rule as much.
I definitely think lascannons are worthwhile, but I probably won't add any in until later points levels. Although, what do you think of swapping the twin heavy bolters on the razorback for twin las? I also plan on adding Vulkan as a captain later on too. Until then, I think that re-rolls to wound are still pretty good from the Lieutenant and each squad can both re roll to hit and wound with their meltas due to CT. So my main worry should be getting into range.
I'm definitely mixed on that AC change. I'm totally fine with changing the price of the TLAC to the cost of 2 ACs, that's how they priced all of the other main twin guns. The problem is that the model the AC or TLAC is usually mounted on is overpriced. Like, I don't think the Razorback needs another +5pt cost if the main gun option is already getting +9. And as noted above, things like the Land Raider Crusader are way overpriced and only get worse with this.
I'd asked this in this thread a few weeks ago, and yeah even if it's efficient, I doubt anyone thinks the TLAC Razorback itself is actually overpowered. If you want to nerf its combo with Bobby G, nerf Bobby. Don't give half the nerf to the tank and half to Bobby.
Well, I suppose on the upside, if those changes go through, it'll finally push me to drop my razors in favor of dreads, which you guys advised for army effectiveness. I've been so busy recently, barely gotten time to try playing the army list I had, let alone assemble and test mods.
I've been reading this thread on sniper scouts, and I'm quite surprised by the downvote. Is it because with snipers you have to double down and take enough to reliably threaten key enemy characters? Three squads of snipers, for example, gives you enough oomph to drop guard HQs easily, headshot ancients and warlocks, etc., whilst also giving you some much-needed deepstrike protection. It's 225pts, but that's fairly viable, unlocking battalion detachments, and keeps your backline safe for the first round.
In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.
Captain Garius wrote: In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.
1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.
Captain Garius wrote: In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.
1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.
Tyranids look like they'll be able to field a pretty good gunline, for what it's worth.
Iron Hands Primaris guys have a decent chance of surviving a 2 damage plasma hit. This means that both iron hands and raven guard are good against plasma - indeed you could argue that IH are better because people tend to get within 12" with their plasma guns before overcharging in the first place.
Likewise an IH dreadnought has a decent chance of negating some of the wounds from a lascannon hit. In effect, it has 1.333 extra wounds due to its CTs. Admittedly, they'll sometimes get overkilled, making the CTs irrelevant - but then sometimes your opponent will roll a 6 to hit a RG dreadnought.
No argument on the ravenguard stratagem. that's awesome.
I've seen a generic twin heavy flamer/heavy flamer dreadnought work quite well. It's cheap, can advance and only lose 33% of its firepower, and can still punch out heavy stuff in CC. My furioso aspires to be that useful.
Martel732 wrote: I've seen a generic twin heavy flamer/heavy flamer dreadnought work quite well. It's cheap, can advance and only lose 33% of its firepower, and can still punch out heavy stuff in CC. My furioso aspires to be that useful.
Wasn't it very difficult to get the flamers into range ?
Captain Garius wrote: In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.
1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.
Sorry I guess I wasn't clear. I was saying that RG is better almost always. The argument for IH is that the difference isn't huge in survivability, but I was bringing up the reasons that isn't the case. The only situation that I would choose IH over RG is one where I was planning on being in my opponents face. Dread spam (with focus on CC), Termi's DSing for rapid Fire Plasma... things like that. Every other situation the RG is just objectively better.
What have been your (best) experience with footslogging dreadnoughts ?
If you are using Forgeworld the Leviathan is amazing, and so are the Mortis, Contemptor Mortis, and Relic Contemptor. From the codex though I prefer the Contemptor and Venerable as Neophyte2012 mentioned. The Ironclad can be fun too though. Dreads are just so much better than they used to be, and they are fun... so it's hard to go wrong.
Captain Garius wrote: In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.
1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.
Sorry I guess I wasn't clear. I was saying that RG is better almost always. The argument for IH is that the difference isn't huge in survivability, but I was bringing up the reasons that isn't the case. The only situation that I would choose IH over RG is one where I was planning on being in my opponents face. Dread spam (with focus on CC), Termi's DSing for rapid Fire Plasma... things like that. Every other situation the RG is just objectively better.
What have been your (best) experience with footslogging dreadnoughts ?
If you are using Forgeworld the Leviathan is amazing, and so are the Mortis, Contemptor Mortis, and Relic Contemptor. From the codex though I prefer the Contemptor and Venerable as Neophyte2012 mentioned. The Ironclad can be fun too though. Dreads are just so much better than they used to be, and they are fun... so it's hard to go wrong.
Even if I were being in the opponent's face, Raven Guard makes them that much better to the campers they can't reach.
Perth wrote: Dreadnoughts are one of our best and most versatile units, I can absolutely see that working.
Will it work better than Bob's used car lot? Probably not, but it can definitely be effective.
Yeah I am going for ‘pretty good’ / ‘effective’ not best list ever.
Trying to figure out what type of dread list would be best. Gun line probably not strong enough... maybe massed charge with Contemptors either with RG or IH faction. Not sure what else to have in list
4x ven dreads w/ a LT (las + auto cannons if your group allows index, missiles if not)
Storm raven with a grav-flux relic leviathan
2x ironclads lead by a chaplin dread.
Crulexus for shenanigans and a unit of devs to pay heavy tax on relic leviathan? A unit or two of scouts for objective grabbers/1st turn charge speed bump?
Run them as raven guard for the -1 to hit (smoke launchers on ironclads turn 1 with chaplin behind them so they gotta shoot the ICs first and you should get into their lines by turn 2)
Best list for dreads I think is this.
Azreal
max redemptor dreads. Give them all the dakka load out - runs a lot like a bobby g razor list except you have none of it's weaknesses. You are strong in CC - and you are actually very durable with 4++ saves and 13 wounds a pop.
bananathug wrote: 4x ven dreads w/ a LT (las + auto cannons if your group allows index, missiles if not)
Storm raven with a grav-flux relic leviathan
2x ironclads lead by a chaplin dread.
Crulexus for shenanigans and a unit of devs to pay heavy tax on relic leviathan? A unit or two of scouts for objective grabbers/1st turn charge speed bump?
Run them as raven guard for the -1 to hit (smoke launchers on ironclads turn 1 with chaplin behind them so they gotta shoot the ICs first and you should get into their lines by turn 2)
Whoa, what’s with this relic stuff and chaplain dreads. I only have the SM codex. Where is that stuff from...
Aw man, oh well, going to stick with codex stuff if I can, most folks near me don’t use FW rules
Probably good for them because the relic leviathan dread is so much good dreadness. Chaplin dread just abuses the broken character targeting rules (make him a salamander, put the cloak and warlord on him for s8 (16 CC), t8, w9 melee beast, 5++, 6FnP)
Grav flux on the relic leviathan is heavy d3, s9 -5ap, 2d range 18"- If target is monster/vehicle or titanic then damage becomes 5. for every five models in the target unit add d3 to the number of attacks made by this weapon (is that +d3 for every 5 beyond the first or would a unit of 5 get 2d3 shots at it?)
-You can put 2 of these on him or a combo of Stormcannon arrays @ heavy 10, s7, -2, 2d range 24"
In around 300 points with a 4++, t8 and 14 wounds.
14 points with camo cloak so end up one more point than marines. If they never leave from cover their armor save is the same as tacs, which means their deploy almost anywhere ability is valued at a point I guess. Sounds fair.
Anyway, with cloaks or without, wondering if people run them with 5 sniper rifles or one missile launcher. Points for this almost the same.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.
5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.
For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?
Spend on Sniper Rifles instead of cloaks.
Hmm would the offensive "punch" from 4 sniper rifles make up for the lower survivability of the entire squad with lack of cloaks, would that make up for the missile launcher scout dying faster? I am not so sure.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.
5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.
For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?
Spend on Sniper Rifles instead of cloaks.
Hmm would the offensive "punch" from 4 sniper rifles make up for the lower survivability of the entire squad with lack of cloaks, would that make up for the missile launcher scout dying faster? I am not so sure.
You can basically deploy them in any cover on the board. The durability is fine.
Yeah I myself have to join the Las over missile launcher crowd. The extra ap and Strength are huge. Theres a good many t8 vehicles out there so being better able to wound them is a big deal and a ton of 3+ saves. When you use a lascannon they have a 6+ save and if its a missile launcher they get a 5+ which IMO is a big deal because they are twice as likely to make that save.
The versatility is also rather pointless imo. Say you fire a missile launcher at a crowd of boyz. You are getting d6 shots (lets assume 4) then you hit 66% of the time so lets again give it the benefit of the doubt and say 3 hits. Then you wound on 4s so that's 1.5 wounds. That's not all that better of a result then just firing a lascannon into them. Sure it would be better against t3 hordes, but I still do not see the loss of it value as a dedicated anti tank weapon being worth it. I could see taking one ML for the purposes of the stratagem, but thats it.
Yeah we had a conversation about missile launchers a while back. Basically they are awful. Frag missiles are only better than lascannons against a minority of targets (really really soft stuff) and even then they aren't great. If your target is MEQ you'd be better off just zapping them.
Tacticals with a lascannon are quite useful. You get to spread your lascannons around, making it hard to disarm your army. They are strictly better than scouts with a missile launcher. The thing scouts do well is screen - but if you're screening why on earth would you buy them a heavy weapon?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.
5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.
For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?
No, because the LC has better S and AP.
True, but scouts can camp outside of deployment zone.
Surely the ability to do that is useful. Surely that opportunity comes up often enough in games?
LC and ML have 48" range. You can pretty much put them anywhere and they'll be able to hit something. Most of the time, the advantage of scouts moving out of the deployment zone, is that they're closer to the enemy to act as a screen/speed bump.
Stavkat wrote: Or to camp on an objective from the start you otherwise could not do without the scouts.
Absolutely. I'm not saying this wouldn't come up in a game. I just think your points are better spent on the more flexible and powerful unit, TACs with a LC, than on a really specific niche build for scouts.
With that said, run whatever makes you happy. I use vanilla terminators and landraiders even though I know they're overpriced and other units can do the same job better.
Stavkat wrote: Or to camp on an objective from the start you otherwise could not do without the scouts.
Absolutely. I'm not saying this wouldn't come up in a game. I just think your points are better spent on the more flexible and powerful unit, TACs with a LC, than on a really specific niche build for scouts.
With that said, run whatever makes you happy. I use vanilla terminators and landraiders even though I know they're overpriced and other units can do the same job better.
Yeah, I am conflicted, lol. I have a good idea for a kitbash snipers with cloaks, but heck, 5 of those guys are 90 points, the same price as a tac squad with a lascannon!
Maybe they can just be wearing *regular* cloaks, not camo cloaks to keep the costs down.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.
5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.
For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?
No, because the LC has better S and AP.
True, but scouts can camp outside of deployment zone.
Surely the ability to do that is useful. Surely that opportunity comes up often enough in games?
Not enough that it's worth it. Like I said, with a camping unit like that, you could purchase the Sniper Rifle instead of the Cloaks, and their Bolters suddenly have better range with a mortal wound here and there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
-v10mega wrote: I like scouts because they are cheap...and thats how I would run them, cheap as dirt and maybe one HB for the stratagem
This is the ultimate premise behind Scouts though. Keep them cheap with all the same weapon, a Combi-Weapon if you feel like, and deploy them where necessary. Simple and effective.
The biggest thing to think about with the Camo Cloaks is not if they make scouts better. they clearly do. Look at the Tac Marines that you are turning the scouts into. Are Tac Marines good? Basically no. There are fringe arguments against this but basically Tac Marines are worse than most other generic infantry from other factions... so why make scouts more expensive than them for little additional benefit? It is almost never worth it. That being said I also disagree with Missile Launchers on scouts in general. Scouts are for screening. If you have to go a heavy weapon take a Heavy Bolter. Otherwise stick with the free weapons. Snipers can be ok if you take at least 10 scouts with them, otherwise their impact is minimal.
1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.
RG is fine in meta without many psykers. In our meta gunlne is not that prevelant.
Hordes and psykers are.
So in this case IH is much better, especially if you focus on maximizing wounds count. Also, redemptor dred with IH stratagem is much better, as it helps him to get into the range without losing firepower. Venerable drednoughts are also much more survivable with IHCT.
My librarian once survived 2 perils (causing 5 MW) in a row, losing only one at the end (yes, I rolled four 6s). in lat game my tactical marines survived 3 turns of CC with 20 or so poxwalkers just due to IHCT.
At the end, IHCT is more universal and can give you much needed survivability against psyker heavy lists liske GK and Deamons.
I came back to Warhammer. Stopped playing at the beginning of the 7th edition. Used to play Eldar. I'm playing SM right now. I really like my local gaming club, cause people are on the more competitive side of the game. No one is afraid of FW etc.
I've got a medium sized Raven Guard chapter, but I'm using a custom paint scheme, so I can really play as any chapter. These are the models I have:
Spoiler:
Lias Issodon
30 Sternguard (10 SIB, 12 combi-plasmas, 8 storm bolters)
2 Ven Dreads (twin lascannon, twin autocannon)
Chaplain Ven Dread (twin lascannon) this one can also be played as a regular dread
And the games are not going as well as I planned in my head before I got these models. And I like it. I like having a challenge. But winning is also a nice feeling I want to expand my army to at least 2-2.5k points.
Since I'm more on the loosing side I figured, that splitting my detachment into 2 and adding Guillman would be beneficial.
Main Raven Guard detachment consisting of Lias and up to 30 Sternguard would stay. The other detachment would be Ultramarines consisting of those Dreads. 1 Chaplain Ven Dread and either:
A) 2 Ven Dreads and some additional Elite choice (not sure what)
B) using those Dreads as 2 Mortis Dreads (so they are a heavy choice) and some additional Heavy unit
C) Scout bikers look really good on paper
That all plus Guillman.
What I'm asking you is:
1) Is getting Guillman just for those 4 other Ultramarine units worth it?
2) What additional unit in either case A or B would you choose? Could be more than 1 unit.
3) Some other opinion/criticism
So those 30 sternguard look like an incredible glass cannon to me. They are really expensive compared to their durability. That's where you're going wrong, in my opinion.
I don't think Sternguard combo all that well with your CTs - because they want to come close-ish to things to rapid fire. The units that benefit most are intercessors, assault hellblasters, shooty dreads and (for the stratagem) aggressors.
I do realise that Lias comes with RGCTs and there's nothing you can do about that. But if you've demonstrated to yourself that doesn't work then you need to change your approach.
Right now Guilliman is at his best in a blob of shooty stuff like razorbacks. He'd require an almost totally different army list from you. I'm not sure it's where I'd look to next if I were you.
Mortis dreads are certainly very good for anyone using ravenguard CTs. They're probably the optimal lascannon mount you can take. Lascannons are good.
I'm afraid the overall outcome of all of that is that I think you'll need to significantly revise our army to make it work well.
You make some good points. Initially I wanted to have more units in reserves, but after last game against a DG player (and a sea of poxwalkers) I'm more inclined to field more units on board. Especially some with long range anti-infantry shooting. But there are still many armies I haven't faced, so I guess more play testing is required.
Those sterns tend to kill about half of their points on arrival (more or less, depends heavily) and then get tied in CC or get shot if they haven't killed enough.
What are some go-to SM long range anti-infantry shooting units? I feel that my only anti-horde shooting are those 8 Storm bolters and they are far from enough.
One thing I've seen in a lot of tourny lists is consistency in the durability of all but the biggest guns.
If every target is a Rhino hull, or every target is 5 PA guys with 1 or 2 good guns, the opponent can't focus down your heavy hitters instead of your troops.
Consider going up against a 3x5man Tacs w/nothing and 5man Dev with 4 Grav Cannons vs going up against 4x5man Tacs each with a Grav Cannon. Slightly less firepower in the second group (no signum), but the Devs in the first group will get wiped out much faster than the Grav Cannons that got spread out in the second group. Same overall durability, but much easier to play against.
Long-ranged high volume firepower isn’t really something that exists in the marine codex. Fortunately, there are close-ranged options with immense firepower. But you’re going to have to get to within 12 or 18”.
Aggressors and Inceptors are rumoured to be getting a substantial price cut in chapter approved. As I mentioned before, Aggressors are a phenomenal unit to use with strike from the shadows. Setting up 17” from a blob you want removed will let off a stupid number of shots – 19 from each guy. If the unit your murdering is a screen then you can be closer – so long as you’re going first.
The other really good option is to take hurricane bolters. This is part of the reason you see so many storm ravens around the place. However, as a ravenguard player, the 24 shots a raven can fire doesn’t look so awesome next to the 19 each that aggressors have. After chapter approved you’ll be able to get something like 9 aggressors for the price of each storm raven.
In terms of tactics I think you always want to hit your opponent as hard as possible on turn 1. You don’t want to be spending time moving into position and you definitely don’t want units off the board in your first shooting phase. So take things like mortis dreads that can kill priority targets from far away without caring about screens.
In terms of screening units of your own I think you could do an awful lot worse than Intercessors. Raven guard ones in cover are very difficult to make go away. SFTS means you really don’t need scouts infiltrating, as you can just send some far tougher intercessors. They are also rumoured to be coming down in cost.
I'll admit that I tend to prefer primaris stuff, which is why most of the units I've mentioned are Primaris. But actually I think their rules are better designed for 8th and they are more capable of doing the job you need done.
I've just read the Chapter Approved leaks. They look really good for us. I've loved the way Agressors look right from the start. Now there's even more of a reason to buy myself 1 big unit.
Inceptors also don't look half bad. 270 points for 12 heavy bolter rounds, is rather good. Their low survivability and high movement potential reminds me of Warp Spiders. With Issodon's reroll they get 21 wounds with AP-1 on T4 targets.
I'm thinking on how to incorporate Agressors into my army. In case I'm first this looks easy.
Drop Aggressors just before first turn. Is there a good place for Sternguards on board? If yes, deep strike them first turn. If no, deepstrike them second turn cause Aggressors have most likely got rid off anything that could have potentially blocked Sternguards. When deepstriking Sternguard, try to also have Aggressors 6" from the Lias for those rerolls.
In case I'm second this doesn't look that great. There isn't always a huge LOS blocking piece of terrain just 24-29" from the enemy force. What do you propose in this situation? Well, in case I face some kind of slow moving DG this isn't that big of a deal, but I imagine Harlequinns, Tyranids or any heavy shooting army will pose a threat to Aggressors anyway. That is, before they have a chance to shoot.
Against a zerging enemy you can use aggressors totally differently. Set them up a fair distance behind your screens. When the enemy hits your screen you can fall the survivors back and use the aggressors to gun the enemy down - then potentially to counter charge.
This is a bit of a waste of strike from the shadows of course.
I don’t think I’d use as many sternguard as you are. Actually personally I’d use 0, but if you really want to use Lias they aren’t dreadful. But having a serious number of guys off the board until turn 2 really is a problem. I suggest using just one unit, then using Lias’ other units as grab devastator or somryiikng like that. You can also use the sternguard stratagem on one of the units.
Sternguard actually work pretty decently as a Grav Cannon delivery system when used with Lias. I do x3 squads of 8 with two Grav Cannons each. Pretty darn pricy but I feel it's pretty worth it against Guard. You ignore their saves and hopefully do enough damage to any tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should clarify that you ignore Guard saves with the Bolters and then shoot the tanks with the Cannons. Just in case of confusion.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Sternguard actually work pretty decently as a Grav Cannon delivery system when used with Lias. I do x3 squads of 8 with two Grav Cannons each. Pretty darn pricy but I feel it's pretty worth it against Guard. You ignore their saves and hopefully do enough damage to any tanks.
I should clarify that you ignore Guard saves with the Bolters and then shoot the tanks with the Cannons. Just in case of confusion.
This is a good suggestion. Wouldn't it be better to set them up with SFTS though, rather than deep striking them with Lias? I guess his rerolls do help make them hit more, even with -1.
I think that a single unit of Sternguard is pretty good, thanks to the stratagem (which also works brilliantly with grav). But I think more than one unit will give you diminishing returns. Any extra units after the first won't be able to use the stratagem and may be short on targets to kill.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Sternguard actually work pretty decently as a Grav Cannon delivery system when used with Lias. I do x3 squads of 8 with two Grav Cannons each. Pretty darn pricy but I feel it's pretty worth it against Guard. You ignore their saves and hopefully do enough damage to any tanks.
I should clarify that you ignore Guard saves with the Bolters and then shoot the tanks with the Cannons. Just in case of confusion.
This is a good suggestion. Wouldn't it be better to set them up with SFTS though, rather than deep striking them with Lias? I guess his rerolls do help make them hit more, even with -1.
I think that a single unit of Sternguard is pretty good, thanks to the stratagem (which also works brilliantly with grav). But I think more than one unit will give you diminishing returns. Any extra units after the first won't be able to use the stratagem and may be short on targets to kill.
SFTS should be used on something that isn't going to be able to Deep Strike or get close in the first place. My thoughts for that are things like Aggressors and Assault Centurions. Maybe Assault Terminators if you got enough Scouts to help out.
Mandragola wrote: Guilliman is going up by about 25 points, which is probably a lot less than he deserves. Reports of his death have been greatly exaggerated.
Which is gonna add up with Razorbacks increasing in price.
Mandragola wrote: Guilliman is going up by about 25 points, which is probably a lot less than he deserves. Reports of his death have been greatly exaggerated.
Which is gonna add up with Razorbacks increasing in price.
True. But does anyone think that a parking lot of razorbacks with a primarch stood in the middle, surrounded by a wall of conscripts, is a cool army? Does anyone think it's fun to play with or against, or that it in any way matches the fluff?
No, they do not. Everyone thinks it's lame.
Right now that's probably the most effective way to play marines. If GW nerfs the razorbacks and Guilliman slightly, while making other units cheaper and therefore more viable, other tactics will be more effective than parking lots. That is good for the game, and for us as marine players. We will have more interesting games.
The trouble is that we don't know for sure what the changes will be, or how significant they'll be. So until the start of December when the book comes out we won't know how good our armies are, or what we could do to improve them.
Personally I'm most pleased to see that GW is taking Forgeworld under its wing and changing the points values of their units. That's going to radically increase the number of viable units available to marine players, while giving us a bit more confidence that the rules are balanced. I'm definitely thinking about adding a Sicaran Venator to my army, for example, once I know its new cost.
All I know is Intercessors going down a couple points makes them super viable. 9 points per 3+ wound is tough to beat and requires specific weaponry to really kill efficiently.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: All I know is Intercessors going down a couple points makes them super viable. 9 points per 3+ wound is tough to beat and requires specific weaponry to really kill efficiently.
Not that specific, unfortunately. Multi-wound weapons are everywhere.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: All I know is Intercessors going down a couple points makes them super viable. 9 points per 3+ wound is tough to beat and requires specific weaponry to really kill efficiently.
Not that specific, unfortunately. Multi-wound weapons are everywhere.
While this is obviously true, a Primaris army won't only have Primaris marines in it. It will have tanks, dreadnoughts and flyers just like any other list.
And just like any other list, people will want to fire heavy weapons at your tanks and anti-personnel weapons at your infantry. They will also hit your guys in cc, very often with weapons that deal 1 damage.
The result is that you do get to use the two wounds on your Primaris guys most of the time. It's not as durable as having two models with 1 wound each, but it's still very significant.
What chapter do you play and how do you tend to spend your CP?
I tend to have 1-2 Vanguard detachments, so about 4-5CP. I find myself spending 1 on the Sternguard stratagem (2 if enough of them get to live), lascannon dmg rerolls, occasionally some charge rolls. I'm still learning the army, so I keep forgetting about the Auspex stratagem.
Two games ago a necron player deep striked a Deathmark unit after my own. I guess I could've shot at them before they did. Am I right?
macexor wrote: What chapter do you play and how do you tend to spend your CP?
I tend to have 1-2 Vanguard detachments, so about 4-5CP. I find myself spending 1 on the Sternguard stratagem (2 if enough of them get to live), lascannon dmg rerolls, occasionally some charge rolls. I'm still learning the army, so I keep forgetting about the Auspex stratagem.
Two games ago a necron player deep striked a Deathmark unit after my own. I guess I could've shot at them before they did. Am I right?
What do you tend to spend CP on?
I use the sons of Guilliman stratagem regularly, charges rerolls and damage rerolls, too. I never use the Auspex because my infantry is often embarked, so... Oh, I love the one making my vv fighting twice, too.
Have you tried a "distraction captain" ? Like, deep striking a jump pack / terminator captain alone or maybe with a few marines, in order to attract fire and cause havoc into your opponent's line ?
Was thinking about him but I've never given him a chance. I guess I could give him the +1A Warlord Trait and if he gets to charge the right target, even using the 3 CP fight-again stratagem. Will try that next game.
people who think G man is going anywhere are deluded. Unless they are stripping rules from him, a 25 point increase still means he's the best individual unit in the codex.
And if you play space marines, this doesn't herald great things. Space marines are already on the back foot with most of their roster.
I hope they release a new Primarch that resembles more Magnus than Gulliman. I don't like the G-man for only one reason. He forces you into playing that one particular chapter.
3 Punisher sicarans puts out 81 HB shots at 36" for less than 5 razorbacks that would put out 60 asscan shots at 24". They have 42 wounds compared to 50 wounds. It has built in reroll 1s if it doesn't move. They are elites versus DT.
30 scouts gives you a lot of flexibility in bubble wrap, you could definitely sub a few squads out for tacs/crusaders with single lascannons or whatever.
I like the JPTH/SS captain, but easily subbed out for someone else.
UM can forego the turrets and move some stuff around to get Guilleman and 2/3 HQs, giving them 10 CP, the 6 main battle tanks and however many scouts for screening.
The three sicaran variants definitely need to be considered now that their cost has come down so much - albeit yes, the relic rule limits how much you can spam them.
It seems to me that the Venator and punisher are better choices than the normal sicaran - which has a kind of unremarkable gun. I wouldn't call it a bad tank though, just one that lacks a specific niche. It may turn out that its all-rounder stat line makes it a winner overall.
I think inceptors give you more shots per point now, and they benefit from CTs. But the punisher can shoot things from much further away where it's a lot safer. Marines now have a number of solid choices for dakka, rather than just defaulting to razorbacks automatically.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Relic Sicarans have the, well, relic rule. You'll need more elites to actually run that many.
Good catch. Company vets are cheapest elite choice at 32pts/unit, with 2 storm bolters they're 36, and if you could fit a razorback somewhere in your list, 3x2 vets with 6 sb in a razorback is a pretty decent counter-assault unit for stuff like boyz/tyranid troops.
Coming back to my 30 Sternguard under Issodon glass cannon problem, I guess I could try fielding just 20 of them and Company Ancient.
I'm facing AdMech soon. If I place them so that they cannot potentially be charged by an IK, so that the only way to kill them is to shoot them, they'll end up having more or less the same firepower while costing at least a 100 points less. In theory at least. I'll try that and see how it works.
Hi guys, I think I found something good in the rumored Chapter Approved. The FW Lucis Dreadnought Droppod is 80pts now, cheaper than the normal Droppod. So looks like Multimelta Venerable Dreadnoughts or Ironclad Dreadnoughts steal rain maybe viabe again. Any thought?
Neophyte2012 wrote: Hi guys, I think I found something good in the rumored Chapter Approved. The FW Lucis Dreadnought Droppod is 80pts now, cheaper than the normal Droppod. So looks like Multimelta Venerable Dreadnoughts or Ironclad Dreadnoughts steal rain maybe viabe again. Any thought?
If so, Black Templar melee dreads are gonna have more fun than usual.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Hi guys, I think I found something good in the rumored Chapter Approved. The FW Lucis Dreadnought Droppod is 80pts now, cheaper than the normal Droppod. So looks like Multimelta Venerable Dreadnoughts or Ironclad Dreadnoughts steal rain maybe viabe again. Any thought?
If so, Black Templar melee dreads are gonna have more fun than usual.
FW dreads pay less for double melee too. 40 for the first, 50 for the pair. 46/56 for chainfists. Saves 30 pts or so. Relic contemptor with double chainfist+heavy flamer is 225, pretty decent, actually. Interestingly, they reroll ALL 1s to hit when they have double melee, so if you went double grav or plasma, you get to reroll the 1s there. Nothing OP, but possibly enough cost reduction to be semi-viable.
Making your second weapon a melee weapon costs you between 25-31 pts, depending on fist weapon. For either of the gun options (Grav/plasma) you get a hits on 2 weapon with rerolling 1s.
All of the heavy weapons will be hitting on 3s with no rerolls.
My quick head math leads me to believe that only the twin las will likely have a noticeable damage advantage over the plasma/grav against highly durable targets, but hitting on a 3+ there is a decent chance of only getting 1 hit, at which point 2 plasma/grav hits are going to do similar average damage.
I don't think any of the heavy guns will perform significantly better against soft targets than a heavy flamer. Double heavy flamer also gives you a solid overwatch to pick up 4-5 horde models on their charge.
Unless you are seeing something I'm not, I don't see a major advantage to paying for a heavy weapon on a drop pod BT dread intended for CC.
With the point cost changes, it looks liike the Land Raider Crusader will become more expensive than the Dakka minigun Repulsor.
Also, I think 80 points is still too expensive for a dreadnought delivery system that does nothing after it comes down. If your strategy is going to revolve around dropping a dread somewhere, take a Storm Raven and build your list around it.
Alright, just got my butt handed to me at a local tourney and I can't figure out how to "get gud."
3 of the armies there were running very similar lists. 27ish dark reapers, hemlock wraith fighter and then other stuff.
I was running a typical guilliman parking lot list (5 assbacks, stormraven, screening conscirpts, primaris psychers, tigarius, guilliman, a couple objective grabbing scout squads.)
Both times I fought this list the enemy went first, 1st list alphaed 2 razors and the storm raven, second alphad 4 razors, sniped a psycher or two with rangers and no LOS'd my a scout squad on objectives with autarchs. It was pretty much over from there.
Range + hit penalties (-3 to hit concealed unit) made it really hard for me to hit back with my already crippled army.
Also with the new ITC rules I was giving up points like crazy and was finding hard to score points against this list (well screened characters, no snipers of my own, no large units, only one unit with 10+ wounds, doesn't need LOS to shoot me off objectives)
I was thinking of going with dreads and out of LOS thunderfire cannons to take advantage of Gman re-rolls and reducing the amount of 10+ wound models out there. I just find it hard to spend more than half the point of a unit for a model that I hope I never have to use (techmarines and all their servo-arms, flamers...)
I need to be able to face these top lists in addition to reaper spam:
morty+magnus soup,
2x knights + cawl bots
and an 18 assassin + sisters
(my local meta is terrible cheese)
Performed decent against morty+magnus, stomped the knights+cawl and got dominated by these eldar lists(thankfully didn't play against the assassins). My success seems strongly correlated to if I go first or not which is why I'm hoping for a decent non-LOS unit that won't get alphad off the board but can still take advantage of gman's crazy re-roll bubble.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Um, I'm seeing that the Dread can't always be in melee, and that rerolling 1's to hit isn't worth the price compared to getting a gun.
You get guns with the fists. Guns that hit on 2s when moving instead of 3s, and the rerolls to hit also effects those guns, meaning that if the dread is moving, those guns statistically do similar damage to the heavy weapons, while also enhancing the dreads melee damage.
2s rerolling 1s to hit means you should almost always (97%) be getting 2 overcharge plasma hits out of the fist.
So you get more damage on the drop against light infantry with the kheres/HB (Probably 3-4 dead vs 2 with GEQ), and if you're building the dread to face light infantry you're best off taking 2x heavy flamers because you'll pick up more than either with overwatch alone. Heavier infantry the extra AP on the blastgun means more consistent kills, and the flat 2 damage means they can chunk multi-wound units or even characters if you can get a proper drop or clear screens.
Against vehicles the Plasma blastgun is better than anything except the las. T7 3+ twin las averages 2.6 dmg to plasmas 2.1 dmg, T8 3+ it's 2.6 vs 1.6. So, on average, you will do one more damage to a leman russ with the lascannon over the plasma blastgun.
Meanwhile you also have the rerolls on your other fist weapon, and your melee attacks.
Again, what I'm saying is that you do not lose much shooting efficiency while gaining melee efficiency, and the only gun that does more consistent damage vs notable targets cost 19 pts more.
Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?
Xiber wrote: Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?
I've run 5 with a JP captain using primarchs wrath for funsies. It's a pretty cool unit, the small footprint lets you drop it in some tight spots. I'd say the captain is basically mandatory so you can overcharge and get real work out of them, thought the relic bolter is optional. Two squads with the captain seems more optimal, but then you're talking about a sizable chunk of your army.
Compared to preds or devastators I'm not super impressed by their damage, but they're immune to being alphaed, and in heavy LOS boards they have some other advantages. I think they're pretty neat overall. 11 attacks in melee means they can beat up weak backfield units, and tarpitting them isn't really possible.
Xiber wrote: Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?
I’ve run 10 (2 units of 5) dropping with either Shrike or a TH/SS captain in a couple of tournaments. They make a fun and effective alphastrike if the opponent doesn’t screen. Typically I was taking out an important backfield vehicle or two (ravager, shooty dread) or character on the drop with the shooting, and losing about 0-1 models to overheat with the rerolls.
Then, unlike scions, after the drop they can sometimes charge into melee with something—especially using Shrike’s assault reroll. They still get 2 attacks each in melee, but more importantly if you trap something that can’t fly away, then you’re safe from shooting until your next turn when you can fall back and shoot again.
But there are too many random factors to make it a reliable competitive unit. Mostly if your opponent does any kind of screening, then that severly limits the damage you can do. And by dropping like that, the vanguards make themselves the priority target for all return fire. The unit is expensive, at 160 each with 10 pistols, for 1-wound models that die pretty easily. The rerolls are absolutely essential—one time I took a chance dropping a unit of 5 in a tiny corner spot without the captain, and four cooked themselves (one of the four rolled double ones and cooked himself twice).
But it is super-fun and characterful for RG as a unit to play in casual games. Currently I’m also putting together a unit of VV with dual grav pistols to throw in the mix.
Hey folks. What does a competitive Raven Guard list look like nowadays? I have a TON of Marine stuff just gathering dust and need a project I can get pumped about.
Would appreciate some input before I get working on lists!
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Hey folks. What does a competitive Raven Guard list look like nowadays? I have a TON of Marine stuff just gathering dust and need a project I can get pumped about.
Would appreciate some input before I get working on lists!
Devs/dreads/aggressors in some combination. Something to deep strike in front of the agressors to keep them alive so they can keep double tapping. Maybe Reivers or Scoutbikes.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Hey folks. What does a competitive Raven Guard list look like nowadays? I have a TON of Marine stuff just gathering dust and need a project I can get pumped about.
Would appreciate some input before I get working on lists!
Devs/dreads/aggressors in some combination. Something to deep strike in front of the agressors to keep them alive so they can keep double tapping. Maybe Reivers or Scoutbikes.
Aggressors using Strike from the Shadows? How about using Shrike + Assault Squads?
What is a common Dev load? Las?
And for Dreads, anything specific or just any? I don't care for the new one, but some FW ones are pretty sexy.
Xiber wrote: Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?
I’ve run 10 (2 units of 5) dropping with either Shrike or a TH/SS captain in a couple of tournaments. They make a fun and effective alphastrike if the opponent doesn’t screen. Typically I was taking out an important backfield vehicle or two (ravager, shooty dread) or character on the drop with the shooting, and losing about 0-1 models to overheat with the rerolls.
Then, unlike scions, after the drop they can sometimes charge into melee with something—especially using Shrike’s assault reroll. They still get 2 attacks each in melee, but more importantly if you trap something that can’t fly away, then you’re safe from shooting until your next turn when you can fall back and shoot again.
But there are too many random factors to make it a reliable competitive unit. Mostly if your opponent does any kind of screening, then that severly limits the damage you can do. And by dropping like that, the vanguards make themselves the priority target for all return fire. The unit is expensive, at 160 each with 10 pistols, for 1-wound models that die pretty easily. The rerolls are absolutely essential—one time I took a chance dropping a unit of 5 in a tiny corner spot without the captain, and four cooked themselves (one of the four rolled double ones and cooked himself twice).
But it is super-fun and characterful for RG as a unit to play in casual games. Currently I’m also putting together a unit of VV with dual grav pistols to throw in the mix.
Making a Vanguard vet unit like this feels kind of sacrilegious when Plasma Inceptors exist, for basically this exact purpose.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Hey folks. What does a competitive Raven Guard list look like nowadays? I have a TON of Marine stuff just gathering dust and need a project I can get pumped about.
Would appreciate some input before I get working on lists!
An RG army with a big gun line component could work nicely. That -1 to hit when enemies shoot at you is pretty sweet!
Las is good, stick one in a 5 man tac squad, stick a few in a dev squad.
Ven Dread good for gunline as will. Twin Las and either auto cannon or missile.
Xiber wrote: Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?
Plasma slingers sound super cool though as vanguard id probably make maybe 2 of them storm shield and some power weapon. (probably one the sarge to benefit from the bonus attack) that way you can tank some of the bigger shots on them while also doing a bit of damage in CC still AND shooting more plasma in the subsequent shooting phase if they haven't run off like weenies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Um, I'm seeing that the Dread can't always be in melee, and that rerolling 1's to hit isn't worth the price compared to getting a gun.
You get guns with the fists. Guns that hit on 2s when moving instead of 3s, and the rerolls to hit also effects those guns, meaning that if the dread is moving, those guns statistically do similar damage to the heavy weapons, while also enhancing the dreads melee damage.
2s rerolling 1s to hit means you should almost always (97%) be getting 2 overcharge plasma hits out of the fist.
So you get more damage on the drop against light infantry with the kheres/HB (Probably 3-4 dead vs 2 with GEQ), and if you're building the dread to face light infantry you're best off taking 2x heavy flamers because you'll pick up more than either with overwatch alone. Heavier infantry the extra AP on the blastgun means more consistent kills, and the flat 2 damage means they can chunk multi-wound units or even characters if you can get a proper drop or clear screens.
Against vehicles the Plasma blastgun is better than anything except the las. T7 3+ twin las averages 2.6 dmg to plasmas 2.1 dmg, T8 3+ it's 2.6 vs 1.6. So, on average, you will do one more damage to a leman russ with the lascannon over the plasma blastgun.
Meanwhile you also have the rerolls on your other fist weapon, and your melee attacks.
Again, what I'm saying is that you do not lose much shooting efficiency while gaining melee efficiency, and the only gun that does more consistent damage vs notable targets cost 19 pts more.
The guns that come with the fists are either pea shooters (I don't need another Storm Bolter), or prohibitively expensive (the Heavy Flamer is the biggest offender in this instance). Plasma Blastgun is an exception though.
However, which that gun you're paying for another fist. If they're too expensive they'll be shot and won't have shot anything because of the short range nature of the weapons on the fists. That's mostly why I've been a big proponent of the Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist.
Xiber wrote: Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?
I’ve run 10 (2 units of 5) dropping with either Shrike or a TH/SS captain in a couple of tournaments. They make a fun and effective alphastrike if the opponent doesn’t screen. Typically I was taking out an important backfield vehicle or two (ravager, shooty dread) or character on the drop with the shooting, and losing about 0-1 models to overheat with the rerolls.
Then, unlike scions, after the drop they can sometimes charge into melee with something—especially using Shrike’s assault reroll. They still get 2 attacks each in melee, but more importantly if you trap something that can’t fly away, then you’re safe from shooting until your next turn when you can fall back and shoot again.
But there are too many random factors to make it a reliable competitive unit. Mostly if your opponent does any kind of screening, then that severly limits the damage you can do. And by dropping like that, the vanguards make themselves the priority target for all return fire. The unit is expensive, at 160 each with 10 pistols, for 1-wound models that die pretty easily. The rerolls are absolutely essential—one time I took a chance dropping a unit of 5 in a tiny corner spot without the captain, and four cooked themselves (one of the four rolled double ones and cooked himself twice).
But it is super-fun and characterful for RG as a unit to play in casual games. Currently I’m also putting together a unit of VV with dual grav pistols to throw in the mix.
Making a Vanguard vet unit like this feels kind of sacrilegious when Plasma Inceptors exist, for basically this exact purpose.
I see your point, but I've been using these models before there were primaris marines. Also I'm not sure, but even with the new price break, don't plas inceptors still cost more? I know they're slower--sometimes that extra 2" makes all the difference.
8th edition has also let me add a unit of SftS melee vets (3 fists, 2 stormshields, because fists are now cheap and I had some now-useless assault marine pfist sergeants). I send them in with a powerfist chaplain for rerolls to offset the -1 to hit.
Also having a melee vanguard vet unit and two shooty units working together keeps me from being tempted to spend more points on the gunslinger vets. Experimentation shows that anything that I put in the unit that replaces a plasma shot (like storm shields or melee weapons) decreases the effect of the alpha strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also also I'm planning to experiment with assault marine squads, each with 3 plasma pistols (one on the sergeant). I'm thinking that the 21 points worth of pistols might make a weak unit into a credible bully/harassment unit at a budget price compared with the gunslinger vanguards.
The guns that come with the fists are either pea shooters (I don't need another Storm Bolter), or prohibitively expensive (the Heavy Flamer is the biggest offender in this instance). Plasma Blastgun is an exception though.
However, which that gun you're paying for another fist. If they're too expensive they'll be shot and won't have shot anything because of the short range nature of the weapons on the fists. That's mostly why I've been a big proponent of the Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist.
This is the point I was making. The second fist only costs 10 pts now. It's 30pts cheaper than it was. So fist+gun is, at most, 31 pts, cheaper than twin las, and in the ballpark as many of the other guns.
In the context of drop pod BT dreads, it's a pretty solid loadout.
Hi gents. I am trying to put up a competitive Crimson Fists list and wanna know what other CF players uses in their army with 8th edition? I have lots of minis and planning to buy new ones after preparing a decent list.
Would appreciate some input before making GW richer!!!
yasarkasaba wrote: Hi gents. I am trying to put up a competitive Crimson Fists list and wanna know what other CF players uses in their army with 8th edition? I have lots of minis and planning to buy new ones after preparing a decent list.
Would appreciate some input before making GW richer!!!
I play crimson fists myself. Some thoughts:
The relic is really good. Give your captain a power fist. I've got the Primaris guy with a fist, and he's great for his cost.
On the other hand, disregard our warlord trait entirely. It'll never happen. Take literally any other warlord trait before it.
As a rule, you want to have infantry that provide dakka and vehicles that provide anti-tank - if you're using vehicles much at all. The chapter tactic is really specific to killing infantry because vehicles almost never get cover anyway, so you want to make sure that your infantry killers benefit from the CT. Units like inceptors with assault bolters are great for gunning down enemy troops, devastator squads and things like that. Intercessors actually benefit quite a lot, as they are able to whittle down those skulking enemy scoring units over a few turns. A CT intercessor's bolt rifle is three times as likely to kill a MEQ in cover than a normal bolt gun that doesn't ignore cover.
You can also totally ignore bolter drill, unless you somehow find yourself with more CTs than you know what to do with (which will not happen so...). It simply doesn't generate enough shots to justify a CT.
Good units are:
- Intercessors
- Inceptors
- Tanks with lascannons on - repulsors, predators, sicaran venators, mortis dreadnoughts
- Contemptor dreadnoughts (ignores cover on its dakka guns, is cheap, hits like a train)
- Hellblasters, if you've taken a repulsor - which you probably should as a place to put hellblasters, characters, and lascannons.
For CF I love using Pedro with Assault Centurions. Either LR Crusader or a Storm Raven for delivery. Hell, sometimes I even run 6 on foot with an Apothecary behind them too. Past that I usually make a Bolter Drill bait unit. A large Centurion squad like above or Sternguard usually get this honor for me, and I back it up with a Lieutenant and a Rhino Primaris. The rest is pretty much up to you and what you want to do. I love the Relic, but usually take Storm of Fire as my WL trait to maximize the Bolter damage. My current list is a mechanized one where I am running triple Vindis, Plasma/grav Tacs in Rhinos, a big Sterngaurd squad and the Centurions
Thanks guys for the valuable feedbacks. I am planning to by inceptors and a contemptor but got a few question marks.
- Mandragola how many inceptors do you use? also is it worth adding a jump pack captain with a storm shield to suck some blows and giving buff?
- Which load out do you use on contemptor and how many do you use in your lists?
- las-predator or 5 man las-devs? I find las-devs really useful but never try a predator in this addition.
- I like hellblasters but do not have a ride for them and not planning to have in short-term. Has anyone tried them footsloggin?
- I always taught that intercessors are good only for securing objectives in your own lines because they have no ride and footslogging is generally not an option for them but maybe i am wrong. How do you guys use them?
- Desubot i love sterns too but i generally used them for alpha strike in previous editions. I can not find place for them right now because of expensive drop-pods.
- Captain Garius I really love Pedro and i tried to use him but his warlord trait is real crap and i cant use him effectively. How do you guys use him or do you entirely skip chapter master thing.
- I tried rhino primaris in my two lists but it did not live long enough generally to see the second turn and with that much points it really sucks.
- I generally play mechanized right now but with increased razorback points, i dont know what to do. I had 2 and bought 2 more but with the point increase in chapter approved, i wished i waited a little bit more :/
Also what do you think about bikes and flyers. I do not use any flyer in my list. I tried to use bikes but it was a disappointment for me comparing with previous additions.
And last question is about librarians and apothecary. I hate psykers. What do you think of them and apothecary worth the points?
I actually make my Lieutenant the Warlord with Storm of Fire even when I have Pedro there too. I agree that his trait sucks.
Contemptors I run with the Kheres unless you are doing the FW variant. Then the sky is the limit. There are a lot of good options.
Speaking of FW, if you are running those models I would do Mortis Dreads, either regular or Contemptor pattern, instead of the devs or preds. Without FW it is kind of 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Devs will ignore cover, but Lascannons aren't usually shooting at things in cover, and Preds are generally more resilient. Your call.
I run Hellblasters on foot. Usually 10 with a Rhino Primaris and an apothecary. They melt through everything and have decent enough range. The apothecary is optional and I only take him if I need to fill out a Vanguard detachment
Usually I run my Intercessors in front of them as a screen. Same speed, same durability, and they are decent in melee. I use scouts for objectives generally since they get there easily in deployment.
Playing mech it is all about managing threat. If you take the Preds or Dreads then a lot of the anti tank your opponent has will focus those before the Rhino Primaris. Tech Marines are great if you are running lots of vehicles.
I don't run flyers either, but the Storm Raven is good. Bikes can be good but take restraint to use. I only ever take them in squads of 3 with matching specials and combi. Either flamers or Melta. They can advance and pop shots at something, and then before they die retreat them to grab late objectives. Not necessary but can be a good tool.
Librarians are good if you have a melee unit and/or a melee dread. Smite is decent, but without it being en mass is nothing special. Denying is great. Use the re-roll charge and fight first power on a strong melee unit and use the Might of Heroes (or whatever it's called) on a dread or melee character and they will do well for you. The Null Zone power is amazing, but unreliable and hard to position so don't count on it.
yasarkasaba wrote: Thanks guys for the valuable feedbacks. I am planning to by inceptors and a contemptor but got a few question marks.
Garius has answered a number of your questions already so I won’t double up. What he says is correct.
yasarkasaba wrote: - Mandragola how many inceptors do you use? also is it worth adding a jump pack captain with a storm shield to suck some blows and giving buff?
The most I’ve used so far is 3. I haven’t played since they got their price cut – RL issues!
It’s absolutely not worth a jump pack captain for the assault bolter guys. It may possibly be worth it for plasma ones – but then you’re putting their price up by a huge amount.
And anyway he cannot soak up attacks from the inceptors. Characters are not able to tank for units in any way any more.
- Which load out do you use on contemptor and how many do you use in your lists?
yasarkasaba wrote: - las-predator or 5 man las-devs? I find las-devs really useful but never try a predator in this addition.
Either is fine and there are loads of FW options too – Mortis dreads and Sicaran Venators both look good. You can also stick your AT weapons on flyers if you like. To be honest these options seem pretty similar.
The issue with vehicles is that you should either have a decent number of them or none. If you field just a repulsor, a contemptor or whatever, then it won’t ever perform that well because it will be killed very fast. If you had a couple of dreadnoughts, a repulsor, a predator or two and a stormraven then some of them would live long enough to do stuff.
This is one of the reasons why I put all my lascannons on vehicles and wouldn’t use devastators. They aren’t a bad unit but they don’t combo well with my repulsor. If my opponent wanted to disarm my AT he could fire his AT at my repulsor and gun down my devastators with heavy bolters and stuff. If I have two tanks instead then his heavy bolters can’t be used to disarm me – or at least not as efficiently.
yasarkasaba wrote: - I like hellblasters but do not have a ride for them and not planning to have in short-term. Has anyone tried them footsloggin?
yasarkasaba wrote: - I always taught that intercessors are good only for securing objectives in your own lines because they have no ride and footslogging is generally not an option for them but maybe i am wrong. How do you guys use them?
That’s part of it, certainly, but they are also a great screening unit and they can kill stuff in their own right. They are dramatically better in cc than our other troop options, with double the attacks and double the wounds of a tactical squad.
yasarkasaba wrote: - Captain Garius I really love Pedro and i tried to use him but his warlord trait is real crap and i cant use him effectively. How do you guys use him or do you entirely skip chapter master thing.
yasarkasaba wrote: - I generally play mechanized right now but with increased razorback points, i dont know what to do. I had 2 and bought 2 more but with the point increase in chapter approved, i wished i waited a little bit more :/
Yeah honestly I don’t have an answer for you here. I don’t use them and haven’t ever, really.
yasarkasaba wrote: Also what do you think about bikes and flyers. I do not use any flyer in my list. I tried to use bikes but it was a disappointment for me comparing with previous additions.
Storm ravens are decent – though now their price is increased they are no-longer a must take. A Xiphon is a very good AT platform, and excellent for killing planes, though as with the SR its price is now reasonably, rather than outrageously cheap. Hover mode is really useful and I prefer the flyers that have it, not least because it’s often very useful to be able to charge enemy units. If you’re up against a gunline then charging a tank on turn 1 and then consolidating into a second one can be excellent – though it can also result in you losing your plane!
yasarkasaba wrote: And last question is about librarians and apothecary. I hate psykers. What do you think of them and apothecary worth the points?
Librarians are pretty good. Null zone is a vital ability to have, or at least an incredibly useful one. Smite is also great and might of heroes can do good things too. For instance if you make a contemptor S and T8 then a lot more things need 6s to wound (or 4s instead of 5s) – and it gets another attack too.
For my Crimson Fists, I give Storm of Fire to my Captain with the Fist of Vengeance. He runs around with Pedro and a Lieutenant, a pair of Honour Guard, and an Apothecary. Pedro's Goon Squad, as my buddy calls it, is pretty adept at ripping stuff apart. I generally get good results with them. They ride around in my Rhino Primaris for the first turn to help them get moved up a little. I don't like leaving them out in the open.
So, with the price hike of the Assault Cannon Razorbacks, are Lascannons a better choice now? I don't have a ton of long range weapons in my army. I figure a pair of Lascannon Razorbacks are a better choice than the Assault Cannons.
I forgot to touch on the Razors. I was using 3 for a while but found that it wasn't as convenient with how I wanted to run my lists. They are great, but I have started getting my anti-infantry elsewhere. With them getting a price increase I likely won't use them anymore. I have a decent amount of Rhino chassis (I think like 7-8) but I end up using them as all sorts of things. You can do some crafty conversions to make them into preds and rhinos if you decide that you don't like the new profile.
Predators and Intercessors getting slightly cheaper is nice. Intercessors saving 10 points alone is a good game changer for such a troop choice. Sadly Tactical Marines look even worse but that might as well not be a unit entry.
buddha wrote: Assbacks only increased 14pts which is hardly a game changer. They still remain a great anti-everything unit that helps keep some troop tax protected.
That is kind of what my dilemma has been. Assaultbacks do their job very well, but I am thinking that I am going to need more than just one squad of four Lascannon Devastators to throw some long range shooting downfield. But Assaultbacks can move and shoot and not skip a beat, so I still might just keep them since their effective range is still pretty good (just not quite as good as the Laserbacks when they sit still).
Speaking of Razorbacks, I've finally had time to look at replacing some of mine with dreadnoughts for my RG list. Still having some dilemma here, as even with the price increase, they are still among the most efficient vehicles, not to mention the carrying capacity. And yeah, they won't live as long as a dread, but a dread costs 1.5x as much or more, which reduces the list's model and gun count. But, I would like to break my parking lot style and getting tactics on my vehicles would be cool...So, I'm thinking I'll cut from 5 Razorbacks to 2 and replace those ~300 points with 2 dreads. Unless you think this would be an even worse idea to mix the 2, then the question is, which dread model?
Without a total list retool, the dreads would still be more anti infantry role as I've got lascannons and plasma elsewhere, so I was looking mostly at the various assault, Kheres, and auto cannon variants. Let me know if you disagree with this unit assessment (for simplicity of comparison vs a Razorback I assumed the -1 to hit RG ability would negate 25% of shots). First off, the didn't make its:
Mortis Dreadnought - It's a dread Razorback. RG players could go either way, but I already own the tanks. However, this would likely be a contender for an AT dread slot.
Regular Dread - Beaten in survivability and firepower per point by the Venerable. 100% skip.
Relic Deredeo - Has the excellent per point metrics I've come to expect from a Forgeworld. Very tempting, but it'd be way too obvious a lone target in my list and I can't afford 2.
Redemptor - Too expensive and degrading BS3. Rather use the Deredeo.
Relic Contemptor - Best survival metrics and 9" move, but firepower per point is near the bottom. I'd strongly consider if using them for CC as well, but too spendy for fire support.
Which leaves my top 2 considerations:
Venerable - Nondegrading stats and not counting as a 10W model for scoring are joined to excellent firepower per point. Downside is it's one of the lowest in terms of survivability per point. Not that much worse, but it's still lower than the Razorback.
Contemptor Mortis - Degrading BS2, 9" move, excellent survival and high firepower per point. Probably would be my top pick.
...If I owned any. I still need to juggle the points around, but short term result is I'm likely replacing 3 Razors with 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts.
bort wrote: Speaking of Razorbacks, I've finally had time to look at replacing some of mine with dreadnoughts for my RG list. Still having some dilemma here, as even with the price increase, they are still among the most efficient vehicles, not to mention the carrying capacity. And yeah, they won't live as long as a dread, but a dread costs 1.5x as much or more, which reduces the list's model and gun count. But, I would like to break my parking lot style and getting tactics on my vehicles would be cool...So, I'm thinking I'll cut from 5 Razorbacks to 2 and replace those ~300 points with 2 dreads. Unless you think this would be an even worse idea to mix the 2, then the question is, which dread model?
Without a total list retool, the dreads would still be more anti infantry role as I've got lascannons and plasma elsewhere, so I was looking mostly at the various assault, Kheres, and auto cannon variants. Let me know if you disagree with this unit assessment (for simplicity of comparison vs a Razorback I assumed the -1 to hit RG ability would negate 25% of shots). First off, the didn't make its:
Mortis Dreadnought - It's a dread Razorback. RG players could go either way, but I already own the tanks. However, this would likely be a contender for an AT dread slot.
Regular Dread - Beaten in survivability and firepower per point by the Venerable. 100% skip.
Relic Deredeo - Has the excellent per point metrics I've come to expect from a Forgeworld. Very tempting, but it'd be way too obvious a lone target in my list and I can't afford 2.
Redemptor - Too expensive and degrading BS3. Rather use the Deredeo.
Relic Contemptor - Best survival metrics and 9" move, but firepower per point is near the bottom. I'd strongly consider if using them for CC as well, but too spendy for fire support.
Which leaves my top 2 considerations:
Venerable - Nondegrading stats and not counting as a 10W model for scoring are joined to excellent firepower per point. Downside is it's one of the lowest in terms of survivability per point. Not that much worse, but it's still lower than the Razorback.
Contemptor Mortis - Degrading BS2, 9" move, excellent survival and high firepower per point. Probably would be my top pick.
...If I owned any. I still need to juggle the points around, but short term result is I'm likely replacing 3 Razors with 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts.
So I think re-designing other areas of your list might be necessary if you're going to use the best dreadnought options. You should avoid taking bad dreadnoughts (or anything bad at all) to fit with other stuff.
Twin lascannons are excellent on dreadnoughts because they are the only one of the only twin weapons they get. So mortis dreadnoughts (or contemptor mortis) with lascannons are a great choice for ravenguard. The contemptor in particular hits on a 2+, has an invulnerable and looks really cool as a bonus.
A straight replacement for the razorback could be a mortis dreadnought with quad heavy bolters. It's only 109 points but gets CTs and chucks out loads of dakka. I've only just "discovered" this option for myself but it looks pretty legitimate. My crimson fists could definitely find a use for one or two of these for the purpose of gunning down infantry in cover. It might not be quite so awesome for ravenguard but it's still pretty decent I think. It's basically a razorback with a better range and CTs - but no transport capacity.
Quad autocannons are a cool option too - less good against infantry but good if you need some help finishing off a vehicle. You can also put autocannons on a standard dreadnought (using the points from the index), which is an elite choice rather than heavy and costs 5 points less than a Mortis.
Contemptor dreadnoughts are excellent. You won't have the firepower of your razorbacks but would replace it with the ability to deal great damage in cc.
Finally a simple 5 man devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is only 105 points - basically the same as the dread. There isn't much to choose between them I think.
I didn't know Minotaurs could use RG tactics...Or that they had a special dread. Will check that out.
I don't think they can. The statement "every unit in that Detachment is drawn from the same Chapter" seems to imply that. The Minotaurs have the Minotaur Chapter listed and no option to be Raven Guard, so they would negate your CTs for that detachment.
You're supposed to follow the parent chapter ala Crimson Fists per FW. Minotaurs don't have one so you get to choose until we have an official one or they tell us what to choose.
It doesn't make much sense but it's something to do.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're supposed to follow the parent chapter ala Crimson Fists per FW. Minotaurs don't have one so you get to choose until we have an official one or they tell us what to choose.
It doesn't make much sense but it's something to do.
That would be the second paragraph that I somehow forgot existed mentioning using the parent Chapter's tactics.
So I think re-designing other areas of your list might be necessary if you're going to use the best dreadnought options. You should avoid taking bad dreadnoughts (or anything bad at all) to fit with other stuff.
Twin lascannons are excellent on dreadnoughts because they are the only one of the only twin weapons they get. So mortis dreadnoughts (or contemptor mortis) with lascannons are a great choice for ravenguard. The contemptor in particular hits on a 2+, has an invulnerable and looks really cool as a bonus.
A straight replacement for the razorback could be a mortis dreadnought with quad heavy bolters. It's only 109 points but gets CTs and chucks out loads of dakka. I've only just "discovered" this option for myself but it looks pretty legitimate. My crimson fists could definitely find a use for one or two of these for the purpose of gunning down infantry in cover. It might not be quite so awesome for ravenguard but it's still pretty decent I think. It's basically a razorback with a better range and CTs - but no transport capacity.
Quad autocannons are a cool option too - less good against infantry but good if you need some help finishing off a vehicle. You can also put autocannons on a standard dreadnought (using the points from the index), which is an elite choice rather than heavy and costs 5 points less than a Mortis.
Contemptor dreadnoughts are excellent. You won't have the firepower of your razorbacks but would replace it with the ability to deal great damage in cc.
Finally a simple 5 man devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is only 105 points - basically the same as the dread. There isn't much to choose between them I think.
Thanks, yeah, that's a good point on the chance at quad las and I'll give this a long second thought, though quad auto cannons are available on most of the chassis (Venerables, Mortis, and Contemptors) and what I was planning to take. But unless needing a loadout that isn't available (such as quad las), I don't think a Mortis is worth it. For +15pts the Venerable gets the BS2 and the ignore wounds, which by my numbers put it ahead in point efficiency.
I'm glad you didn't push the Deredeo. Those stats are excellent, but 230+ pts each would be harder to work around, plus I'd have to buy the kit(s)
The Deredeo actually doesn't suck. The trick is to give it heavy bolters and not add the missile launcher thing. It's got the most firepower of any dreadnought I think - or at least any apart from a Leviathan with stormcannons.
It costs the same as a redemptor and has an awful lot more firepower, plus better range.
The problem it has is stuff with good armour saves. But going from S7 to S8 is better against just about everything it's likely to shoot at.
So i play nids mainly, have SM, a bunch of old stuff from 5th, so no primaris or anything.
Is it viable to run a SM list without primaris and still be compettitve?
I was thinking of Sternguard, dev, Tac squads, Razorbacks, maybe some stormtalons (here they suck now), snipers, and a few elite/lt/capts.
I did cave and buy Guilliman, but i think i just want him for display or Apoc games.
Also, i have Pedro, now we can blend chapters, so I was thinking of repainting him as a LT or captain with POwerfist and storm bolter model. Thoughts on that?
Dynas wrote: So i play nids mainly, have SM, a bunch of old stuff from 5th, so no primaris or anything.
Is it viable to run a SM list without primaris and still be compettitve?
I was thinking of Sternguard, dev, Tac squads, Razorbacks, maybe some stormtalons (here they suck now), snipers, and a few elite/lt/capts.
I did cave and buy Guilliman, but i think i just want him for display or Apoc games.
Also, i have Pedro, now we can blend chapters, so I was thinking of repainting him as a LT or captain with POwerfist and storm bolter model. Thoughts on that?
Yes, most people are of the mind that the Primaris stuff is not that great, except maybe Hellblasters.
Was hoping this thread could help someone just starting with Space Marines. I'm not sure on a chapter yet (torn between Ultramarines and Salamanders), but I have the Start Collecting Box as a jumping off point. I've reached a roadblock in regards to how I'm going to equip the units in this box for optimal performance, at least starting out in smaller games.
So far, I've put together 6 Tactical Space Marines, with 4 more waiting in the wings. From what I've read around various forums, it seems like two 5-man tactical squads is the way to go. With that in mind, 2 of my remaining will be Sergeants and the other 2 will be heavy/special weapons. Assuming I only use the weapons available to me in the Tactical Space Marine part of my box, what is the best way to arm these figures. I was thinking one squad with a combi-plasma/plasma cannon, and the other with a standard Sergeant/missile launcher, but I wanted to see if there were better options.
With the Captain in Terminator Armor, what is the best weapon set-up for him?
Finally, with the Venerable Dreadnought, again, what is the best weapon set-up?
Thanks! I'm really excited to be back into this game after so many years.
For building the SC, I'd recommend Combi-plas, Plasmagun, Missile Launcher.
I'm not really sure what options the Termi captain has in the box, but a combi-plas and Thunder Hammer would be useful and versitile. Or Storm Bolter and power sword to be cheap.
The Venerable kit doesn't come with any left arm guns, and the right arm guns just slide in without glue, so try them all. I'd build your fist with a storm bolter and start with a Lascannon.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It won't help them get out of melee quicker. Definitely a waste.
Damnit. The pose looks so good. I was hoping I was missing something. I suppose I will just put the Bolt Pistol in that hand. Need a way to distinguish the base Marines from the Sergeant. Crimson Fists don't do different colored helmets.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It won't help them get out of melee quicker. Definitely a waste.
Damnit. The pose looks so good. I was hoping I was missing something. I suppose I will just put the Bolt Pistol in that hand. Need a way to distinguish the base Marines from the Sergeant. Crimson Fists don't do different colored helmets.
If you like the pose, make it another Plasma Gun for the sheer sake of coolness. Since there's no option for that, it falls under Rule Of Cool and you'll get a pass.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It won't help them get out of melee quicker. Definitely a waste.
Damnit. The pose looks so good. I was hoping I was missing something. I suppose I will just put the Bolt Pistol in that hand. Need a way to distinguish the base Marines from the Sergeant. Crimson Fists don't do different colored helmets.
If you like the pose, make it another Plasma Gun for the sheer sake of coolness. Since there's no option for that, it falls under Rule Of Cool and you'll get a pass.
Otherwise it's only 7 points right?
Naw, I just found that there is a Bolt Pistol arm too. So I will just do that instead. Still looks pretty awesome and helps distinguish my Sergeant.
So the verdict on Hellblasters is still that the Heavy version is garbage, correct?
Hey there, longtime lurker here just enjoying the thread. I have about 3 companies of the Salamanders and thought we could talk about CT specific combinations for a bit.
Re-rolls on re-rolls: I couldn't be more pleased with how the Salamanders CT functions and encourages the fluff of lots of specialist gear, fewer bodies, and small squads. Something that really caught my eye is the minimum company veteran squad size of 2. I've run a 2k of four vanguard detachments in razors with biker techmarines (index...grr). Mildly salty that a servo arm and a PF are the same price when theservo is limited to a single attack at lower AP.
Really wish I could find a place for Grav and with the wound re-roll it's tempting but grav seems to have been priced out versus plasma.
Picked up a great little tactic here of hiding a PC or Grav in a dev squad to be the sole beneficiary of the ammo baby and servo. +1 to hit means not chance of overheat on a PC.
I was wondering if anyone has experience with the rhino primaris? The idea of carting around multi-melts devs with no to hit penalty is appealing.
Even as a Salamanders player I feel flamers aren't working as intended. Nine points is a bit steep for something that sprinkles a few str 4 hits when I could have four and a half storm bolters.
I suppose the real complaint here is that the traditional anti-horde platforms underperform (flamers, TFC, whirlwind, etc) while aggressors, inceptors and scout bikes light things up for cheaper/at better range/with power fists.
Also wondering what people take and on who for relics. Having a +1 T warlord with the Salamander's mantle is great on a Gravis or bike model, but I wonder if in practice the shield eternal is better. Usually only run the standard and teeth beyond that. Salamanders CT make them a bit less dependent on captains for the re-rolls so I'm trying to build up good tactics for LT's, Tech marines, and librarians.
Eh, I think you're thinking about the Salamander CT the wrong way.
You want low rate of fire high strength weapons like Lascannons and maybe even Meltas (even if they're kind of gakky at the moment) for the salamander CT to shine. The rerolls just don't do as much for plasma or grav.
tpogs wrote: Eh, I think you're thinking about the Salamander CT the wrong way.
You want low rate of fire high strength weapons like Lascannons and maybe even Meltas (even if they're kind of gakky at the moment) for the salamander CT to shine. The rerolls just don't do as much for plasma or grav.
Oh I agree! I do run things this way, but I would contend that plasma is a very good use of the CT because it allows you to overcharge relatively safe while away from a captain.
While overcharging in this way, I've found my vet pairs output damage close to melta while remaining flexible to elite infantry. The math is something like 4.78 dmg vs 5.5 dmg both at 12" the melta wins out at 6" but the melta pairs also cost more.
Also, rules question here. Does Vulkan let me re-roll number of hits for flamers? I've gone back and forth because because of the auto-hit, the number of shots is the to-hut roll for flamers. If this isn't the case, then I'm finding it really hard to leverage vulkan as a strategem, the CT, and a lieutenant can nearly do his job for him.
No, the number of hits a flamer gets isn't a roll to hit I'm afraid. You only get the reroll to wound with them.
Salamanders CT seems better with old marines than Primaris, to me. It benefits squads with one or two special weapons far more than units like hellblasters. That's what you want the Rhino Primaris for... maybe. Or you could just buy more hellblasters.
It might be that Salamanders flamestorm aggressors are worth running. I'm not too sure though if honest. It's such a big investment, effectively just for some not-very-flexible dakka. Getting them into position probably requires a repulsor too.
Dreadnoughts seem to be the really fun option though for salamanders. Contemptors with meltas are way better for them than for anyone else. In combat you'll tend to miss with an attack and have another one or two fail to wound, so the CT very significantly improves their killing power. I haven't done the maths on whether it benefits normal dreadnoughts or contemptors more - because I don't play Salamanders and can't be bothered.
I also like the idea of the multiple units of 2 company veterans. With 4 shots you'll be unlikely to ge two 1s. You get to put 6 plasma guns in a razorback if you want. Pretty cool all round, I think.
Is anyone else having trouble justifying adding an assault element to their army now that BA is for all intents and purposes, out in terms of rules and such? I'm putting together a BT list, and I have plenty of Dakka, Plasma, Melta, and I'm running a double battalion so I have 4 HQs and six troops. 15 scouts, 10 Crusaders, 5 Intercessors. I have some transports, hell blasters, devastators (bait essentially), plasma inceptors (my new favorite unit), and I'm running Helbrecht, Emps Champ, LT, and a Jump captain.
I have some points left that I can shuffle around, but I'm having trouble with actually going ahead with taking any kind of dedicated assault element in my army. If I had access to BA units, I would take death company and call it a day. They are the perfect Marine assault unit. 2 attacks! 2! That's the most we ever get! Sergeants for our best assault units get 3, but there's no way to increase that.
Honor the Chapter is not only expensive, but by the time I'm using it, the unit I want to use it on is depleted because of the replying blows from the opponent's unit.
Yes we can get in there more reliably, but the problem is actually doing something once we get there. I just don't think 2 attacks is enough on Company Vets or Vanguard, and spamming chainsword attacks isn't that great when I get strength 4 AP nothing elsewhere in spades.
Ugh.
If only Honor Guard were worth taking. And they're again another 2 wound highly elite expensive unit. I just don't know what the solution is.
Exactly, and its not like I'm hurting for more strength 4 AP nothing attacks with this list. I just feel like VV lack punch to make a worthwhile dent in anything. Really, they're best used attacking things that are toughness 3, 4+ saves. They only have 2 attacks each, and when you add in close combat weapons and jump packs they get damned pricey for something that has two attacks on a marine profile.
If I had a decent way to get them another attack I would be okay with it. I have a bunch of really nice VV models, but I hardly ever use them because of the number times where I've charged in with anywhere from 5-7 of them, and didn't do a whole lot. Power fist sarge, 2-4 power swords, 2 power axes. Its just not enough damage to justify the cost.
ultimentra wrote: Yes we can get in there more reliably, but the problem is actually doing something once we get there. I just don't think 2 attacks is enough on Company Vets or Vanguard, and spamming chainsword attacks isn't that great when I get strength 4 AP nothing elsewhere in spades.
Ugh.
If only Honor Guard were worth taking. And they're again another 2 wound highly elite expensive unit. I just don't know what the solution is.
It's also annoying they only get two dudes per squad.
I find 3x2 company vets with chainsword and storm bolter to be fantastic. Have used them to take down all sorts of stuff. You can scoff at "S4 ap nothing", but one of the best ways to make someone die is to make them roll dice. Ask any ork player.
Problem is for tournaments will kill X unit objectives, you give up lots of points. So, I don't reccomend investing in more than maybe one razorback of them as a counter assault unit. Where having the almost guaranteed 5-7" charge as a BT is very useful. There's nothing more crippling than failing a short range charge at a crucial point in the game, with how much a charge can dictate following movement, shooting and assault phases.
Traceoftoxin wrote: I find 3x2 company vets with chainsword and storm bolter to be fantastic. Have used them to take down all sorts of stuff. You can scoff at "S4 ap nothing", but one of the best ways to make someone die is to make them roll dice. Ask any ork player.
Problem is for tournaments will kill X unit objectives, you give up lots of points. So, I don't reccomend investing in more than maybe one razorback of them as a counter assault unit. Where having the almost guaranteed 5-7" charge as a BT is very useful. There's nothing more crippling than failing a short range charge at a crucial point in the game, with how much a charge can dictate following movement, shooting and assault phases.
That's why Vanguard simply work. 18 points for a 12" 4 attack model ain't too bad. Yeah it's only 2 attacks if you got a Power Weapon but oh well. Hidden Power Fist is always an option, though less effective than it used to be.
They have the option to specilize in many basic attacks for cheap, anti tank/mc with power fists and evicerators, go ham on elite with power weapons and relic blade (?), or mix and match as a jack.
I'm playing RG with Lias Issodon and a bunch of Sternguards. After a couple of games at my local club I came to the conclusion, that I need more anti horde firepower. At first I thought, that some storm bolter Sterns would be great.
Today while walking back from a grocery store, I was crunching some numbers in my head. Appears that Sterns aren't that great as I thought they were.
A 18pts Stern armed with a SB, pays 4,5 points per 1 S4 shot.
On the other hand, a 3 man Scout Bike Squad (with SB on serg) costs 77pts and outputs 22 S4 shots at the same 12" range. That equals 3,5 points per 1 S4 shot. And they're probably also tougher point for point.
Apart from not-having-moved Aggressors, is there anything that could beat those bikers?
With 8th edition one of the best weapon profiles we have are lascannons. Where do you find the best place to inject lascannons into your armies? Predators? Devastator Squads? V. Dreds?
I’ve been using mainly devastator Squads as that’s currenly what I have available to me. Follow up question if you use devs how many extra bolter bodies are there? Is it just the sgt and 4 heavy weapons? Or are people running 2-7 extra bolters to eat that damage?
A friend of mine suggested I run 1 heavy weapon is in a squad of 5 guys to protect my lascannons has anyone tried this with success?
Apart from not-having-moved Aggressors, is there anything that could beat those bikers?
Same here, and the speed is a huge boon in their favor. I still think boltstorm aggressors come out on top overall because of range, durability, and special rules. Other than that for anti infantry you can go co-vets with storm bolter and chainsword for 7 s4 attacks per 18 pts but if were factoring in cc the scouts still have combat knives, too.
New 3/4 price assault bolter inceptors? AP -1 and s5 will start shifting the numbers even against the chaffiest chaff. Not too hard to spam t4.
Otherwise, from the index, you can still run a triple heavy Flamer plain dread.
Traceoftoxin wrote: I find 3x2 company vets with chainsword and storm bolter to be fantastic. Have used them to take down all sorts of stuff. You can scoff at "S4 ap nothing", but one of the best ways to make someone die is to make them roll dice. Ask any ork player.
Problem is for tournaments will kill X unit objectives, you give up lots of points. So, I don't reccomend investing in more than maybe one razorback of them as a counter assault unit. Where having the almost guaranteed 5-7" charge as a BT is very useful. There's nothing more crippling than failing a short range charge at a crucial point in the game, with how much a charge can dictate following movement, shooting and assault phases.
That's why Vanguard simply work. 18 points for a 12" 4 attack model ain't too bad. Yeah it's only 2 attacks if you got a Power Weapon but oh well. Hidden Power Fist is always an option, though less effective than it used to be.
If every vanguard could take a storm bolter, I'd be balls deep in a white scars army of those.
Sonminiser wrote: With 8th edition one of the best weapon profiles we have are lascannons. Where do you find the best place to inject lascannons into your armies? Predators? Devastator Squads? V. Dreds?
I’ve been using mainly devastator Squads as that’s currenly what I have available to me. Follow up question if you use devs how many extra bolter bodies are there? Is it just the sgt and 4 heavy weapons? Or are people running 2-7 extra bolters to eat that damage?
A friend of mine suggested I run 1 heavy weapon is in a squad of 5 guys to protect my lascannons has anyone tried this with success?
So far I was mainly using Vanguard Dreads with twin Autocannon and twin Lascannon. Either 2 or 3 of them. They were doing great most of the time. Last game I've tried Mortis Dreads with two twin Lascannons. They did very well. Two such dreads killed one Onager Dunecrawler, 1,5 Kastelan Robot, damaged heavily the second Dunecrawler and did some wounds to the Imperial Knight. I think that part of their success lies in having a very aggressive playstyle. No one's got time to shoot my dreads when there are 10 combi-plasma Sternguards at your face, coupled with another 10 special issue bolters, sometimes Celestine etc.
So far I've been using Raven Guard CT on them. Next time I'll be playing a 2k game, I'm going to deploy another detachment consisting of some cheap hq and 3 Mortis Dreads with quad Lascannons all under Salamanders CT. I think this might work. I just have to watch out for some shooty armies when I don't have the first turn. After my reserves drop, no one really cares about them. So why not just maximise their firepower?
Sonminiser wrote: With 8th edition one of the best weapon profiles we have are lascannons. Where do you find the best place to inject lascannons into your armies? Predators? Devastator Squads? V. Dreds?
I’ve been using mainly devastator Squads as that’s currenly what I have available to me. Follow up question if you use devs how many extra bolter bodies are there? Is it just the sgt and 4 heavy weapons? Or are people running 2-7 extra bolters to eat that damage?
A friend of mine suggested I run 1 heavy weapon is in a squad of 5 guys to protect my lascannons has anyone tried this with success?
What i have seen is mostly 5-6 man squads with 2-3 lascannons. Basically want like a 50/50 ratio on the Devestator squads.
People put them with tac marines as well, but you have to worry more about move and shoot with those guys.
Sonminiser wrote: With 8th edition one of the best weapon profiles we have are lascannons. Where do you find the best place to inject lascannons into your armies? Predators? Devastator Squads? V. Dreds?
I’ve been using mainly devastator Squads as that’s currenly what I have available to me. Follow up question if you use devs how many extra bolter bodies are there? Is it just the sgt and 4 heavy weapons? Or are people running 2-7 extra bolters to eat that damage?
A friend of mine suggested I run 1 heavy weapon is in a squad of 5 guys to protect my lascannons has anyone tried this with success?
What i have seen is mostly 5-6 man squads with 2-3 lascannons. Basically want like a 50/50 ratio on the Devestator squads.
People put them with tac marines as well, but you have to worry more about move and shoot with those guys.
There are actually loads of good ways to run lascannons.
The guy who won heat 1 of the UKGT ran several tactical squads with a lascannon in each one. That’s a pretty great way to get guns spread around the place where it requires quite a lot of effort to remove each one. It’s expensive per lascannon but the units themselves are cheap, and you need to take some kind of troops.
Mortis dreadnoughts are nearly the most points-efficient way to bring lascannons. 4 for 175 points is very efficient and it gets CTs, which is pretty great for ravenguard in particular. If you’re happy to go up by 31 points then contemptor mortis dreads are a lot tougher, and start out with BS2+.
Predators fall in between the two dreadnoughts in cost. The best thing about predators is the kill shot stratagem. Now that the autocannon has come down in price, a group of three predators with autocannon and lascannon is a pretty great option. They combo very well with the storm of fire warlord trait, as +1 to wound means they get the extra ap on a 5+.
A Xiphon interceptor is basically a flying predator. It’s had its cost raised a bit (which is hard to argue against, because it used to be cheaper than a non-flying predator!) but is still reasonably affordable. It features Potms and gets +1 to hit things that fly, meaning it’s a very effective flyer-killer. Can’t hover though, so you do have to be careful not to fly it off the board.
Repulsors are an interesting case. You can effectively give them 4 lascannons, along with around 53 other guns. They are very expensive but as transports for your hellblasters and characters they can do a pretty good job for your army.
Razorbacks exist and can have lascannons stuck on them. They are on the high end of the scale for durability but not for firepower/point. Pricier now as well, making it quite hard to make the case for them over predators.
In an infantry-heavy army you could go for devastators. Bear in mind though that they’ll be hated by just about everything and may not live all that long as a result. That kind of applies to everything here though. They are actually the cheapest way to bring lascannons, at 165 for 4, and they can be pretty resilient against other people’s long-ranged stuff. They can also die in a heap to small arms fire though.
Are landspeeders or landspeeder storms any good. from a points/stats line wise they are on par with bikes, and appear to move faster, and also the storm can carry scouts. I have heard some grumblings that they are gak now, and everyone takes bikes. What am I missing?
Dynas wrote: Are landspeeders or landspeeder storms any good. from a points/stats line wise they are on par with bikes, and appear to move faster, and also the storm can carry scouts. I have heard some grumblings that they are gak now, and everyone takes bikes. What am I missing?
They are really pricey for what they do (which is not very much).
Dynas wrote: Are landspeeders or landspeeder storms any good. from a points/stats line wise they are on par with bikes, and appear to move faster, and also the storm can carry scouts. I have heard some grumblings that they are gak now, and everyone takes bikes. What am I missing?
(1) The base cost is too high. 20 points more gets you a predator chassis with twice the wounds, more toughness, and able to carry more guns.
(2) The weapon options are overshadowed by what you can get for a stormtalon, razorback or predator. For example, missile launchers are kind of weak in 8th edition, so buying a speeder with typhoon gets you a fragile model with not much firepower for more than the cost of a razor with twin las.
(3) All the weapons are heavies for a model that probably wants to be moving every turn.
The one thing that I've thought about actually using a speeder for is just minimal with a single HB or HF as an assault blocker, since it can soak a charge, not get trapped, and still shoot after falling back. But so far I've always found something better to spend those 80-90 points on.
The problem with land speeders is having no suitable (non-heavy) guns and no CTs.
If you compare them to an Eldar vyper they are really similar. But voters have several weapon options that are assault, and they get their craftworld benefits (as does everything in their book).
I get the feeling with a few marine units that they weren’t really thought through in detail. All the attention went on the primaris. A few units, like stormravens, were too good and got beefed. Others, like land speeders aren’t good enough but are ignored.
Hey guys, building a 12 aggressor ravenguard list atm, but I dont have them yet. Just wondered how well the ultramarines go as I have the models ready for a 1500pt hellblaster guilliman gunline. Then I was thinking, 12 aggressors, 10 hellblasters with the assault plasma, guilliman, a standard/apoc, 3 primaris psykers and tiggy would be a fun list, and quite mobile for a foot slogging army as its always advancing and rerolling everything....
Whats the general consensus of massed aggressors with guilliman lately? does it perform well or is it too fragile?
THe landspeeder storm with scouts can still move and shoot, and for ultramarine they would still be able to shoot if they fell back, but the vehicle wouldn't. Also, they are troops so you would get objective secured and with the speed they can certainly zip around the board.
For 125 you can get five scout bikes. Same toughness, same armor save, 2" slower (except when advancing), ten wounds to the storm's 7, and *three times* as much shooting at 12". Twice as much shooting at 24"
If a storm were 20 points cheaper, I would say the Fly keyword would be enough to make it comparable.
I ran my 1500 aggressor/hellblaster guilliman gunline last night, tabled an angry space wolves list. Tiggy's null zone, primaris smite and the banner all ensured those aggressors are nasty. So much fun to play too, has answers for a lot of different armies.
I know at the moment I'm looking to get more anti-tank in my current list. The rough draft of my next tourney list is shaping to be around something like this, and I definitely need tips.
Battalion:
x1 Lugft Huron
x1 Lieutenant
. Power Fist, Master Crafted Bolter (The Primarch's Wrath)
As of right now the list is at 1721 points...and I think lacking in the Anti-Big Stuff at the moment. So the question is how to incorporate that stuff...into the Elite slot. The Scorpius is pretty cool overall as long as I can keep Lugft and the Lieutenant nearby, but obviously I would need at least one selection in the Elite slot to meet the Relic requirement. More importantly, what would it be? If the choices really aren't...good, I can always forget the rerolls galore and throw it in the Raptors detachment and get my fix elsewhere, though that's not my preferred want.
The next question is what to run my Astral Claws as. I was actually, and hear me out on this, thinking of Black Templars just for the sick Strategem to shut off Psykers. Raven Guard would add to survivability more, but the Warlord Trait would suck for Huron. Salamanders would work if I chose Dreadnoughts as my Elite anti-big stuff.
Of course the list is still a work-in-progress. I'm entirely open to non-terrible suggestions.
Elites? Venerable Dreadnaughts. And if you went RG, they become extra survivable.
Also, you don't have to use that RG warlord trait unless the warlord is a named RG character. Like if he were Shrike, for example. Astral Claws have no associated warlord trait, so I'm pretty sure you can choose between the RG one (if that's your chosen 'successor' for this) or the generic ones. Someone correct me if there was an faq on this.
Lemondish wrote: Elites? Venerable Dreadnaughts. And if you went RG, they become extra survivable.
Also, you don't have to use that RG warlord trait unless the warlord is a named RG character. Like if he were Shrike, for example. Astral Claws have no associated warlord trait, so I'm pretty sure you can choose between the RG one (if that's your chosen 'successor' for this) or the generic ones. Someone correct me if there was an faq on this.
Huron gets you an additional CP if he is your Warlord. So that was the main plan.
Lemondish wrote: Elites? Venerable Dreadnaughts. And if you went RG, they become extra survivable.
Also, you don't have to use that RG warlord trait unless the warlord is a named RG character. Like if he were Shrike, for example. Astral Claws have no associated warlord trait, so I'm pretty sure you can choose between the RG one (if that's your chosen 'successor' for this) or the generic ones. Someone correct me if there was an faq on this.
Huron gets you an additional CP if he is your Warlord. So that was the main plan.
Sure, but I think you have to give him a generic trait instead of the chapter specific one. He's not RG, even if you choose to act as RG for the purposes of the Chapter Tactics and Stratagems. The Warlord Traits have different wording than those two, so I'm pretty sure you're not only able to choose a generic trait from the list, you're forced to. For named characters you have to use the warlord trait associated with their chapter, but Astral Claws have none.
Lemondish wrote: Elites? Venerable Dreadnaughts. And if you went RG, they become extra survivable.
Also, you don't have to use that RG warlord trait unless the warlord is a named RG character. Like if he were Shrike, for example. Astral Claws have no associated warlord trait, so I'm pretty sure you can choose between the RG one (if that's your chosen 'successor' for this) or the generic ones. Someone correct me if there was an faq on this.
Huron gets you an additional CP if he is your Warlord. So that was the main plan.
Sure, but I think you have to give him a generic trait instead of the chapter specific one. He's not RG, even if you choose to act as RG for the purposes of the Chapter Tactics and Stratagems. The Warlord Traits have different wording than those two, so I'm pretty sure you're not only able to choose a generic trait from the list, you're forced to. For named characters you have to use the warlord trait associated with their chapter, but Astral Claws have none.
I guess that's a good point with the Crimson Fists getting their own stuff. I'd probably just go Iron Resolve (really deny killing him) or Storm Of Fire (making that camping stuff just slightly better at killing while providing synergy with the Lt.)
Speaking of Crimson Fist, i have a Kantor model (without the flag on him) and was gonna repaint him as an LT for Ultramarines. For points wise, given he has Dorns Arrow I was just going to use that as a Storm Bolter and Powerfist.
Im going to bit bash another LT and Captain, not sure what to give him. Whats best these days? Might go magnets on the arms. I have pretty much all the melee and ranged weapons.
Captain i was thinking power weapon and combi weapon, not sure which though. For LT, chainsword and stormbolter, but open for suggestions.
My favorite captain has a jump pack, thunder hammer, and storm shield. He can get quickly to wherever I need him and challenge just about anything in HtH.
4 thunderhammer attacks hitting on 3s with rerolled 1s typically deals either six or nine wounds to most things, and it’s unusual not to get at least 3 wounds.
The stormshield is not absolutely essential. It only changes his invul from 4+ to 3+ and it’s somewhat expensive for that, but if you roll saves the way I do, then it makes a difference. If I weren’t using a stormshield, I would use a combi-melta, since flying makes it easier for him to get into half range.
But Crimson Fists have the best artifact fist in the game—the one with no penalty to hit. Definitely use that on a captain.
Whay you guys think of dreads in this edition and how many do you use in your lists. Contemptor dreads are my favourite right now with basic loadout (kheres assault-ccw with combi bolter) and planning to use two of them in my list if i can fit them.
yasarkasaba wrote: Whay you guys think of dreads in this edition and how many do you use in your lists. Contemptor dreads are my favourite right now with basic loadout (kheres assault-ccw with combi bolter) and planning to use two of them in my list if i can fit them.
Venerable dreadnought with 2x twin autocannon is lovely for its points cost. Keep it still and near a Captain for best effect.
I love dreads. I rate the Contemptor Mortis, the Chaplain and the Leviathan the highest. Quad Las Mortis beats Preds imo - chapter tactics, 5++ and hitting on 2s for +20pts is a bargain.
. I'm sure there are better choices, but the models are super cool, and they aren't BAD, per say.
