Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

No. But by looking at him:
1. He can do okay vs larger amounts of models, which is nice.
2. He gives a last F-U to what kills him.
3. Lastly he's a Chapter Master for that sweet generic reroll.

He's not terrible, but melee is iffy at the moment with the vanilla codex, and if you wanted to do a gunline you can get a cheaper or tougher Chapter Master.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

No. But by looking at him:
1. He can do okay vs larger amounts of models, which is nice.
2. He gives a last F-U to what kills him.
3. Lastly he's a Chapter Master for that sweet generic reroll.

He's not terrible, but melee is iffy at the moment with the vanilla codex, and if you wanted to do a gunline you can get a cheaper or tougher Chapter Master.

Blood Raven get to pick their CT right?

Melee is Iffy probably more along towards the competitive lines but in general it could be usable and doable with something like Raven guard or black templars.

Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

I've run him 4 or 5 times. He's performed well for me everytime. Buuuuut just like Slayer-Fan said, you can get more efficiency out of other options.

So far I've only run him in a gunline, his lack of shooting is kind of annoying but not really a big deal and so far he's been a great counter-assault unit vs Characters and MC's. I may have just been lucky but he's been an absolute beast in CC, completely dumpstering units like Hive Tyrants and Typhus. The one time I've seen him beaten in CC his Retribution skill gloriously finished off the Character that killed him. I have had no opprotunity to use his AoE attack yet so can't really comment on that.

He's fun but ultimately you can likely get similar results for less points if you look elsewhere.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

No. But by looking at him:
1. He can do okay vs larger amounts of models, which is nice.
2. He gives a last F-U to what kills him.
3. Lastly he's a Chapter Master for that sweet generic reroll.

He's not terrible, but melee is iffy at the moment with the vanilla codex, and if you wanted to do a gunline you can get a cheaper or tougher Chapter Master.

Blood Raven get to pick their CT right?

Melee is Iffy probably more along towards the competitive lines but in general it could be usable and doable with something like Raven guard or black templars.

They don't have an official parent Chapter/Legion, so you kinda get your pick until FW puts their foot down.

 tpogs wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

I've run him 4 or 5 times. He's performed well for me everytime. Buuuuut just like Slayer-Fan said, you can get more efficiency out of other options.

So far I've only run him in a gunline, his lack of shooting is kind of annoying but not really a big deal and so far he's been a great counter-assault unit vs Characters and MC's. I may have just been lucky but he's been an absolute beast in CC, completely dumpstering units like Hive Tyrants and Typhus. The one time I've seen him beaten in CC his Retribution skill gloriously finished off the Character that killed him. I have had no opprotunity to use his AoE attack yet so can't really comment on that.

He's fun but ultimately you can likely get similar results for less points if you look elsewhere.

I don't think I need every piece of my army to be the most efficient - I'm just not in that type of ultra competitive gaming scene. Having said that, it's great to hear he seems fun.

I wonder if he'd pair well with a squad of melee Tartarus terminators alongside some other drop units like Inceptors...

Lemondish wrote:

 tpogs wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Has anybody had the opportunity to play with Gabriel Angelos? I picked up the Artel W model and was eager to see how he performs on the table.

I've run him 4 or 5 times. He's performed well for me everytime. Buuuuut just like Slayer-Fan said, you can get more efficiency out of other options.

So far I've only run him in a gunline, his lack of shooting is kind of annoying but not really a big deal and so far he's been a great counter-assault unit vs Characters and MC's. I may have just been lucky but he's been an absolute beast in CC, completely dumpstering units like Hive Tyrants and Typhus. The one time I've seen him beaten in CC his Retribution skill gloriously finished off the Character that killed him. I have had no opprotunity to use his AoE attack yet so can't really comment on that.

He's fun but ultimately you can likely get similar results for less points if you look elsewhere.

I don't think I need every piece of my army to be the most efficient - I'm just not in that type of ultra competitive gaming scene. Having said that, it's great to hear he seems fun.

I wonder if he'd pair well with a squad of melee Tartarus terminators alongside some other drop units like Inceptors...

I was thinking Tartarus temires myself. lighting/claw and combi bolter seems a good mix

Well this is a Tactica thread so some discussion of efficiency is unavoidable.

But to answer your question. No I do not think Gabe would be very good deepstriking in with CC terminators of any variety. Mostly just because deepstriking assault units are pretty bad in general currently. Gabes strongest attribute is his rerolls in my opinion, and that's wasted on a single unit.

A fun/fluffy alternative you could do is convert yourself an Apollo Diomedes as a Chaplain and drop him in with your Terminators, same effect but cheaper and will free Gave up to be somewhere more important.

 tpogs wrote:
Well this is a Tactica thread so some discussion of efficiency is unavoidable.

But to answer your question. No I do not think Gabe would be very good deepstriking in with CC terminators of any variety. Mostly just because deepstriking assault units are pretty bad in general currently. Gabes strongest attribute is his rerolls in my opinion, and that's wasted on a single unit.

A fun/fluffy alternative you could do is convert yourself an Apollo Diomedes as a Chaplain and drop him in with your Terminators, same effect but cheaper and will free Gave up to be somewhere more important.

Yes, of course. I did not mean to imply that it should be avoided, only that I think my particular gaming group gives me a lot of leeway in selecting suboptimal units that are otherwise good, but not the most efficient choice.

The goal was to find a way to drop him into the thick of it quickly and he of course would not be doing it alone. Tartaros termies were a pretty solid sturdy unit that could keep up with him, but I imagined they'd be supported by a big chunk of Inceptors - bolter and plasma. If going RG, I had planned to have him drop within range of the units I placed with SFTS, if the option presents itself. I also like to play with a lot of the Primaris assault weaponry like the auto bolters and auto incinerators as I've found tons of success with those and they're fun and super mobile. These elements will be moving up pretty quickly, so I imagine they'd lose out on his full reroll aura for a turn at most.

But it sounds like he'd be better off providing his reroll aura to as much of the firebase from turn one as possible, and counter charging where appropriate.

So I read somewhere (I THINK BoLS but I don't remember) that Sternguard can be equipped with all Storm Bolters as they're on the Combi-Weapon list. Is that correct? I'm out of town for work and can't check.

Yes, any vet can replace their special issue with a combi.

Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.

It does remove their ability to use their unique Strategem though. There are some targets that special issue Boltguns work better against (I believe Terminators are one of them), but Storm Bolters have better utility against most targets.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.

It does remove their ability to use their unique Strategem though. There are some targets that special issue Boltguns work better against (I believe Terminators are one of them), but Storm Bolters have better utility against most targets.

So I'd have to math out Storm Bolters, Special Issue, and Special Issue w/ Strategem. That's a lot haha

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.

It does remove their ability to use their unique Strategem though. There are some targets that special issue Boltguns work better against (I believe Terminators are one of them), but Storm Bolters have better utility against most targets.

So I'd have to math out Storm Bolters, Special Issue, and Special Issue w/ Strategem. That's a lot haha

Yeah, not try doing the following combo:

Sternguard with SI Boltguns
Near Pedro Kantor
Near Lieutenant
With +1 to hit from Rhino Primaris
Masterful Marksmanship
Bolter Drill

My Sternguard Alpha Strike.

I've used them several times. They're quite good at taking enemy's objective holding troops and thinning screening units.

Although Scout Biker Squads seem to have more dakka at 12"

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mathematically, that might be better vs most targets then. Not sure by how much of course.

It does remove their ability to use their unique Strategem though. There are some targets that special issue Boltguns work better against (I believe Terminators are one of them), but Storm Bolters have better utility against most targets.

So I'd have to math out Storm Bolters, Special Issue, and Special Issue w/ Strategem. That's a lot haha

Yeah, not try doing the following combo:

Sternguard with SI Boltguns
Near Pedro Kantor
Near Lieutenant
With +1 to hit from Rhino Primaris
Masterful Marksmanship
Bolter Drill

My Sternguard Alpha Strike.

I won't don't worry. I'm mostly striking them with Lias.

I need some suggestions on which forgeworld unitsI should field in a more competitive/ITC meta, any help or insight would be appreciated.

I have currently have great interest in adding the following units into my assaultback spam:

Sicaran Venator:
Pros: 62" threat range, no move/shoot penalty, tough-ish, great tank hunter, fast, strong anti-tank dakka, cheapish point wise
Cons: large model, hard to hide, will be nuked if not placed properly, need screening units for protection, high priority target

Xiphon
Pros: anti-flyer, its a flyer, great tank hunter, very fast, strong anti-tank dakka
Cons: can barely hide, its a flyer, high priority target, cannot hover

Fire Raptor:
Pros: anti-everything, its a flyer, will kill stuff guaranteed, tough, fast, alotta dakka, can hover, PotMS.
Cons: expensive point wise (and $$), cannot hide, its a flyer, very high priority target.

My current list in general:
5 assaultback loaded with mahreens backed by my chapter master for max re-rolls. 1 or 2 chaplain dreads with twin las for anti-tank.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Hello there! I'm a black templar guy and I have a question regarding meltabombs. What units can take them?
Battlescribe allows on tactical marines, but not crusader squads. but in codex and index I only find the options for melta bombs on assult marines and vanguard veterans.
Melta bombs used to be available to pretty much all space marine sergeants and generic HQ's right?

I'm experimenting with building an all infantry-list and I would think the melta bombs could be usefull to beef up the close range damage potential for some of my squads and HQ's.

Gitdakka wrote:
Hello there! I'm a black templar guy and I have a question regarding meltabombs. What units can take them?
Battlescribe allows on tactical marines, but not crusader squads. but in codex and index I only find the options for melta bombs on assult marines and vanguard veterans.
Melta bombs used to be available to pretty much all space marine sergeants and generic HQ's right?

I'm experimenting with building an all infantry-list and I would think the melta bombs could be usefull to beef up the close range damage potential for some of my squads and HQ's.

Check the FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_space_marines_en-1.pdf

Tactical sergeants can have melta bombs.

Mandragola wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Hello there! I'm a black templar guy and I have a question regarding meltabombs. What units can take them?
Battlescribe allows on tactical marines, but not crusader squads. but in codex and index I only find the options for melta bombs on assult marines and vanguard veterans.
Melta bombs used to be available to pretty much all space marine sergeants and generic HQ's right?

I'm experimenting with building an all infantry-list and I would think the melta bombs could be usefull to beef up the close range damage potential for some of my squads and HQ's.

Check the FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_space_marines_en-1.pdf

Tactical sergeants can have melta bombs.

Ahh I see that explains battlescribe.. Is it only me who thinks it's odd thhat melta bombs are so heavily restricted to assult marines, vanguard and tac-marines. Why not crusader squads or sternguard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does it have to do with the components in the boxes?

Gitdakka wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Hello there! I'm a black templar guy and I have a question regarding meltabombs. What units can take them?
Battlescribe allows on tactical marines, but not crusader squads. but in codex and index I only find the options for melta bombs on assult marines and vanguard veterans.
Melta bombs used to be available to pretty much all space marine sergeants and generic HQ's right?

I'm experimenting with building an all infantry-list and I would think the melta bombs could be usefull to beef up the close range damage potential for some of my squads and HQ's.

Check the FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_space_marines_en-1.pdf

Tactical sergeants can have melta bombs.

Ahh I see that explains battlescribe.. Is it only me who thinks it's odd thhat melta bombs are so heavily restricted to assult marines, vanguard and tac-marines. Why not crusader squads or sternguard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does it have to do with the components in the boxes?

Yes that’s the (stupid) reason. It’s why hellblasters sergeants can have plasma pistols that they’ll never use, why intercessors can have power swords but nobody else can, and so on. It’s very frustrating.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So I read somewhere (I THINK BoLS but I don't remember) that Sternguard can be equipped with all Storm Bolters as they're on the Combi-Weapon list. Is that correct? I'm out of town for work and can't check.

Another alternative that someone mentioned earlier in this thread is Company Veterans with storm bolters. They cost the same and have the same profile as sternguard, but you can't use the sternguard strategem, but you do get the bodyguard ability if a character is nearby.

The major advantage of Company Vets in this role is in list building--that you can take them in units as small as 2 guys. So if you have an extra 72 points leftover at the end of your list, you can get a unit of 4 that will actually do something useful, without having to lay out the full 90 points for a minsize unit of sternguard.

Or if you play Ravenguard like I do, and you want to game the tactical reserves system to keep most of your army out during deployment, then two vanguard detachments of Company Vets counts as six units on the table. Put them in razorbacks, and you can put 8 units on the tabletop with just 2 deployment drops.

Also notable for Ravenguard, storm bolters have the advantage of still getting 2 shots in the 24"-15" range band, unlike the SI Boltgun. So it gives you more standoff slack outside your 12"

The problem with Veterens is that I'm not getting those sweet Grav Cannons. That's why I was clarifying.

My opponents won't care. Bolters are the same size basically and as long as the points are the same and the list is legal, I'm good.

Yeah, sternguard are definitely better if you want some heavies.

Veterans are better for filling detachment slots and having small unit flexibility.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Yeah, sternguard are definitely better if you want some heavies.

Veterans are better for filling detachment slots and having small unit flexibility.

Doesn't it annoy anyone else that Veterens can go up a couple dudes but Honour Guard are frickin capped at two?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Yeah, sternguard are definitely better if you want some heavies.

Veterans are better for filling detachment slots and having small unit flexibility.

Doesn't it annoy anyone else that Veterens can go up a couple dudes but Honour Guard are frickin capped at two?

Yes Very much so.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Yeah, sternguard are definitely better if you want some heavies.

Veterans are better for filling detachment slots and having small unit flexibility.

Doesn't it annoy anyone else that Veterens can go up a couple dudes but Honour Guard are frickin capped at two?

I used to run 5/10 man honor guard squads all the time... they were a massively underappreciated gem in 6th/7th. Losing the extra melee weapon attack, the +1A banner and the +1A for charging means they're basically only useful as 12pt/wound ablative wounds for characters... that don't have jump packs.

Though, if we could go up to 5/10 man, they'd still be super cost effective 2+ bodies, at 2W each. Damage output would be pretty mediocore, but they'd be fairly hearty.

To all: This is a continuation of a debate that started in Proposed Rules here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/743674.page But I felt is was relevant to Marine Tactics, and I'm also interested in getting more eyes on for feedback, and because I think the mathhammer may be interesting to some. It's a monster post, I apologize.

History for any curious:


@ Slayer: Delayed for math and lack of time, but here we go:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. You only overcharge when there's going to be rerolls though. That's the complaint with Plasma Weapons at the moment that you get rerolls galore and that Overcharge isn't dangerous and a double edge sword like it's meant to be. Kinda like how nobody took Plasma in 6th/7th except in SUPER fringe cases. Like, so fringe they might as well not have existed.
If you say you can do rerolls, I can say I get to use the Masterful Marksmanship Strategem. Which is another thing to actually point out. That would make the Bolters wound GEQ on 2+, MEQ/TEQ on 3+, and the REQ on a 4+. Math on that? I don't really feel like doing the math, but that's 6.6 against MEQ in Rapid Fire range and 4.7 (that's a whopping 1 Marine dead in the first scenario, though the non-Rapid Fire is less impressive). Against GEQ that's 10.2 dead in Rapid Fire range (which is a whole dead Infantry Squad that can't do screening now), and that's 7 dead outside Rapid Fire (which is now only 2 dudes left to protect the one good weapon. If you wanna take morale into account you can, but typically morale is gonna be ignored in some manner). Against REQ you're dealing 5.5 wounds in Rapid Fire range (which is just over half the wounds on a Razorback, which means that BS3+ is a mere 4+ now). Only 3 outside Rapid Fire, but oh well.
Tactical Marines get a Strategem from the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics (which mitigates the Overcharge danger), except it's redundant once you have rerolls. That makes it much less useful and way too

1. A: Re-rolls do not = ability to take Masterful Marksmanship Stratagem. Re rolls are a passive ability that affects multiple squads, and comes with an excellent HQ unit. It's practically bonkers not to have re-rolls in a marine army, so right away they're not equivalent.

1. B: But let's say they're equivalent for the sake of argument and see how they stack up if we're just using Stratagems.

Tactical Squad w/ Stratagem, full re-rolls to hit, moving -1 to heavy weapons:
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
TAC------------10.8----------5.98*----------7.3*---------6.7* *overcharging plasma

Sternguard with Stratagem, +1 to wound on Bolters, moving -1 to heavy weapons:
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN-------9.29-----------5.7----------6.2-----------4.8

Point for point, Tacticals come out ahead. They were already doing about the same amount of damage as the Sternguard, and benefit more from their Stratagem because it affects ALL of their weapons, unlike the Sternguard Stratagem which just affects their bolters.

Work:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. I actually like Devastators, but they don't work as well as Grav Cannon delivery systems (as Pods are super expensive and still not good even after the price cut, and infiltration with Raven Guard or Lias should be used on units that are going to be more dangerous when they land). Lascannons are a different story there. 2 Lascannons and a Cherub is a perfect objective camper.

2:The 8 man Sternguard squad at 196 points costs one point more than a six man Devastator Squad with 4 Grav-Cannons and a Cherub, which is 195. Here we go.

Rapid fire Range and on the move, -1 to hit for heavy weapons. Throwing in Tacs for completion.
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
TAC-----------7.6-------------4.1-----------5.5*---------5* -*Overcharging Plasma
STERN-------7.98-----------4.8-----------5.5----------3.98
DEV-----------8.1-------------6.48---------10.1---------6.4

The Devs are waaaay better. This is why my next addition to my army will be a third squad. Imo if you were really serious about capitalizing on Lias, you'd be taking three squads of 10 Devs. In addition to being a better alpha strike, their damage output is less diminished by range, and could therefore take better advantage of the RG Chapter Tactics. (Lias is Raptors? Thus RG?. I don't know him very well)

Work:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

3. What you forget is Marines don't last long in the first place, so trying to pretend they do is a failing prospect. So is two less models in the squad a big deal anyway? The answer is no. If you hit the enemy hard enough, enemies won't kill you fast enough. That's why you see the more successful Marine lists using either Alpha Strike tactics, or focusing on the more durable models in the army (most of which aren't even Marine models). The mathematical advantage by killing a few models more goes a long way to making sure their units can't hold objectives (yeah Tactical Marines have Objective Secured, but you're going to be outnumbered by their Troops anyway, especially after just a couple die and then the opponent doesn't even have to bother touching the squad again because, let's face it, they're not scary offensively).
More the point is all 8 and all 10 are going to die in a round. Dead units typically don't attack back. I'd not bother even trying to kill all the Tactical Marines anyway as, outside your casual as all hell area, they're not scary. If I need an objective, I can shift Marines.

So does it matter 15 Marines perform the same against GEQ? No. You also forget that you need to be at 8" range for the grenades to work, so...

3. A:You're making an argument at odds with itself. On the one hand you're saying marines don't last long, as though it doesn't matter how many buffer wounds are in the squad. On the other hand you are saying doing a few extra wounds "goes a long way". Therefore, having a few extra wounds also would "go a long way".

3. B: If you're ignoring the last few guys of a Tactical squad, you're ignoring the actual damage dealers of the squad. The guys that are doing the brunt of the work in making their offensive output similar to the Sternguard.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

4. And if I need Command Points, I can just pay the Scout tax (and Scouts are the superior unit anyway to Tactical Marines, so I was already using those for screening purposes and to a lesser extent offensive purposes).
The generalist will fail to the specialist. I mean, I don't even have to pay for 8 Sternguard, and I could just specialize in 2 Grav Cannons and 3 Combi-Plasmas or just go all out with 4 Grav Cannons with some Devastators. I'm bringing that loadout to a tournament for FUN as I know they will mathematically do the job. Tactical Marines barely function in a FUN environment, and it shows based off when they DID show up (once with Rowboat? And you guys clamor to it forgetting about Rowboat and the Razorbacks that were doing the work...). It's a non-occurrence. At least Sternguard show up once in a blue moon as a true suicide unit, which is what I'm sorta doing.

4: A: If Tacs can have a similar damage output to Sternguard, I don't see any reason for the "Scout Tax" for CP. By all means take scouts if you want to use them for screening or positioning, though. Comparing Tacs to Scouts is far from simple, as they perform different roles.

4: B: "The generalist will fail to the specialist". Then why build the 8 man Sternguard Squad instead of the Devastators? Sternguard are generalists in comparison. It would be interesting to see a Sternguard Squad loadout that was more specialized and could compete better for damage output, however, I think you'll probably see diminishing returns, as what really makes Sternguard special are the special issue bolters. Loading them up with more gear is missing the point, I think.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

outside your casual as all hell area. . .

Tactical Marines barely function in a FUN environment. . .

The easygoing version of my standard drop (two ten man Tacticals and an 8 man Devastator Squad) outperforms the three Sternguard Squad drop. This is not including a Lieutennant or the option of doubling up on special weapon Tactical Combat Squads. I'll be the first to admit the overall list isn't ideal, but the first thing I'll do is get a third Devastator Squad, and probably drop my Scouts. As for my "casual as hell area" I'd argue that if you're getting decent results with three Sternguard Squads, I can do the same with Tacs and Devs.


By the way the Storm Bolters on Sternguard (I've wanted to do this math for a while) get you: (Assuming 10 man Squads)

RFrange_________________GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
Stern w/ Special Issue:----------8.87------------4.4-----------3.3----------2.9
Stern w/ Storm Bolters:----------11.8------------4.4-----------2.2----------2.9
Stern w/ SI +Stratagem:---------11--------------5.9-----------4.4----------4.4


Work:

For special or combi-weapons (including Storm Bolters), you're better off taking Company Vets, with a small caveat for combi-flamers. For heavy weapons, you're better off with Devastators. Sternguard have 4 things going for them:

Special Issue Boltguns: For going cheap and effective at longer range vs. better AV targets, and a decent use of command points on the Stratagem.

Heavy Flamers: Can be effective up close, and work as a charge deterrent.

Able to mix heavy and combi-weapons: Not super great, and you can do this to a lesser extent with Tactical squads, but it's one thing only they can really do.

Able to take up to 10 special and combi-weapons in 1 squad: Usually a bad idea compared to taking multiple smaller squads, but useful for the SIB Stratagem. This is also where the combi-flamer caveat comes up for Salamanders and Flamecraft, as it's the only way to hit 6-10 flamers (2 of which are optionally heavy) with the Stratagem. Going all flamers generally requires some sort of transport, and gets rather expensive though.

I've been running 10 combi-plasma Sternguards (and 10 SIB ones) under Lias Issodon for quite some time. After these CA changes I've just compared them to Inceptors and I must say, that the Inceptors look really good.

10 combi-plas Sterns are 310 pts
5 plasma Inceptors are 295 pts

If I haven't misunderstood anything, they have exactly the same firepower up to 12". I'd even say that 18" Assault 2 is better than 24" Rapid Fire 1. It helps them utilise Raven Guard's CT better while maintaining full firepower.
Aginst small arms fire they are tougher due to T5, against multi dmg weapons the Sterns are.
They don't need Lias to be able to deep strike.
They are faster.

I'd feel really bad to buy some now, cause that'd probably make me stop using Sterns. And I've just ordered some Assassins, so there isn's really much space for new units in reserves...

Plasma pistol vanguard veterans are also cheaper than combi-plasma sternguard (by only one point per model to be fair). They can deep strike without Lias and have jump packs to move around. They do have the problem of only 12" range, though the fact that they come with pistols makes them theoretically better in cc. In reality they probably die before a shooting phase comes around.

Personally I don't think there's much need for any expensive drop plasma attack with marines. Your guys just die so fast and can pretty easily be screened against. I find that hellblasters in repulsors work really well, as do ravenguard assault hellblasters walking.

I basically think that Lias is a trap. He looks great on paper but what he really does is help you do something that's a bad idea, really well. You don't want your ravenguard (or raptors or whatever) within 12" of the enemy. He lets you put loads of them there.

If you want drop plasma you don't need Lias. Honestly I'd recommend playing dark angels and using their stratagem on a big unit of inceptors, with a master and a lieutenant nearby. Firing at full effect at 12" is far better than 12". It's a lot harder to screen against and you might just possibly get to keep your unit for a turn or two more.

Greetings all!

I'm thinking about potentially tinkering up a Salamander list in the near future but I haven't played Space Marines for like a decade and a half (or basically 40k for that matter) so I'm wondering if you guys could give me some pointers and constructive critisism to a list I wrote. It's not meant to be winning tournaments but hopefully do respectably against most enemies.

Salamanders 2000 points
Brigade Detachment 11CP (12-1 for extra relic)

HQ
Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought - Twin lascannon 212pts (Can he be your warlord and does he have access to relics?) In that case he also has Salamanders Mantle and Storm of Fire
Captain - Master-Crafted Boltgun, Power Sword 81pts
Lieutentant - Master-Crafted Boltgun, Chainsword 63pts

Troops
Scout Squad - Heavy Bolter 65pts
Scout Squad - 55pts
Tactical Squad - Lascannon, Melta Bombs 95pts
Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher 90pts
Tactical Squad - Lascannon 90pts
Tactical Squad - Lascannon 90pts

Fast attack
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter 77pts
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter 77pts
Scout Bike Squad - Combi-melta 94pts

Elites
Aggressor Squad - Flamestorm Guantlets 117pts
Apothecary - 55pts
Company Ancient - Storm Bolter, Standard of Emperor Ascendant 65pts

Heavy Support
Land Raider Redeemer - Hunter-killer Missile, Storm Bolter, Multi-meta 383pts
Rapier Carrier - Laser Destroyer 100pts
Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer - Hunter-killer Missile 191pts

Total 2000pts even

So what do you think? Any mistakes I made (either in tallying the points or some illegal additions etc)?

Mandragola wrote:
Plasma pistol vanguard veterans are also cheaper than combi-plasma sternguard (by only one point per model to be fair). They can deep strike without Lias and have jump packs to move around. They do have the problem of only 12" range, though the fact that they come with pistols makes them theoretically better in cc. In reality they probably die before a shooting phase comes around.

Personally I don't think there's much need for any expensive drop plasma attack with marines. Your guys just die so fast and can pretty easily be screened against. I find that hellblasters in repulsors work really well, as do ravenguard assault hellblasters walking.

I basically think that Lias is a trap. He looks great on paper but what he really does is help you do something that's a bad idea, really well. You don't want your ravenguard (or raptors or whatever) within 12" of the enemy. He lets you put loads of them there.

If you want drop plasma you don't need Lias. Honestly I'd recommend playing dark angels and using their stratagem on a big unit of inceptors, with a master and a lieutenant nearby. Firing at full effect at 12" is far better than 12". It's a lot harder to screen against and you might just possibly get to keep your unit for a turn or two more.

In all the games that I've played as pure SM, yeah, I got that feeling that they're too soft and bringing them 12" next to my opponent just makes it easier for him to kill them. But I've also played a couple of games with St. Celestine (and once with 5 Paladins and 10 GK Strike guys for funziez) and having that distraction for my enemy helps Sterns live longer. Usually long enough to cripple the enemy enough for him not to be able to recover. I've ordered some Assassins recently and I hope that they'll just magnify this effect. Also bringing Company/Chapter Ancient helps a little.
I'm not saying that Sterns are THE best unit to achieve what I want, but right now I'm not willing to put them on a shelf and buy some other units that are just marginally better at the same job. If only money grew on trees.

I need to play more games really. Will see how it goes.

PiñaColada wrote:
Greetings all!

I'm thinking about potentially tinkering up a Salamander list in the near future but I haven't played Space Marines for like a decade and a half (or basically 40k for that matter) so I'm wondering if you guys could give me some pointers and constructive critisism to a list I wrote. It's not meant to be winning tournaments but hopefully do respectably against most enemies.

LIST

Total 2000pts even

So what do you think? Any mistakes I made (either in tallying the points or some illegal additions etc)?

I'm not familiar with how some of those units function individually on the tabletop, but overall it seems pretty solid.

Here's an interesting thing regarding Sternguard:

10 Sternguard w/SI Bolters + Stratagem vs. MEQ
5.9 = (20 x .666 x .666 x .666)

10 Sternguard w/SI Bolters and 2 Grav Cannons + Stratagem vs. MEQ (Assuming -1 for heavies as we're on the move for a drop)
6.9 = (8 x .5 x .666 x .83)

IMO if you're going to be using the Stratagem, Grav Cannons may not be worth it. They're 52 points for an extra wound against marine types. The MEQ type is important for Sternguard because I think it's basically the only target that the Special Issue Bolters are statistically better against, when compared to lots of other options in the book.



For Max Murder, 10 Sternguard vs. GEQ, Chapter Master and Lieutenant nearby, pop Stratagem:
17.2 = (20 x .888 x .97) Screen clearing duty. Probably the best use there would be to fire at two or three different squads and force morale rolls. Not sure it's worth it to use the Stratagem to kill a couple extra guardsmen, but it could be handy.


If I were running Lias I'd consider 2 Dev squads with Grav and 1 Sternguard Squad, just all with SI Bolters. Everyone as 10-man, as the extra bolters in the Devs can help with anti-screen as well.

macexor wrote:
I've been running 10 combi-plasma Sternguards (and 10 SIB ones) under Lias Issodon for quite some time. After these CA changes I've just compared them to Inceptors and I must say, that the Inceptors look really good.

10 combi-plas Sterns are 310 pts
5 plasma Inceptors are 295 pts

I'd feel really bad to buy some now, cause that'd probably make me stop using Sterns. And I've just ordered some Assassins, so there isn's really much space for new units in reserves...

yup. How can we sell more primaris. Make them cheaper and better than all the stuff everyone already has. Thats how they get ya!

I tried a thunderfire for the first time since 8th dropped, today. I used it with the stratagem against 20 genestealers, it was very effective, especially against such a quick unit.
But, except for this particular case, I can't see myself keeping a thunderfire in my lists. Have you had good results with it and the stratagem ?
I didn't use it for months because its damage output seem pretty bad to me, only the stratagem looks useful.

As Tyranids become more popular, it might be worth taking them in a TAC list. I suspect Orks will have a decent codex for once as well

Well, just finished Turn 1 against my brother's Ravenwing with my Crimson Fists and I am getting soundly beaten. Dark Talon wiped out my Devastators with a Stasis Bomb and a second one did the same trick to one of my Hellblaster Squads. My only real damaging contribution so far has been Pedro Kantor and his boys ripping apart two Squads of Black Knights. Unfortunately, nothing else has really performed up to snuff. Terrain hasn't helped me at all and Imperial Fists Tactics are absolutely garbage.

We are going to finish the game in the morning. I suspect I will be tabled by the end.

A dark talon should never kill a whole unit with its bomb. You do a mortal wound on a 4+ for each model. Did you roll 10 dice against 5 guys?

Devastators are a good target for it but hellblasters shouldn’t be.

That said, I do think there’s a problem right now with dark angels and blood angels essentially being marines +1. It doesn’t make much sense that they get everything marines get, plus a lot more unique stuff, plus better CTs. The marine codex really suffered from being first, I think.

Mandragola wrote:
A dark talon should never kill a whole unit with its bomb. You do a mortal wound on a 4+ for each model. Did you roll 10 dice against 5 guys?

Devastators are a good target for it but hellblasters shouldn’t be.

That said, I do think there’s a problem right now with dark angels and blood angels essentially being marines +1. It doesn’t make much sense that they get everything marines get, plus a lot more unique stuff, plus better CTs. The marine codex really suffered from being first, I think.

He rolled five dice and got four 5s or 6s. It was nuts.

Mandragola wrote:
A dark talon should never kill a whole unit with its bomb. You do a mortal wound on a 4+ for each model. Did you roll 10 dice against 5 guys?

Devastators are a good target for it but hellblasters shouldn’t be.

That said, I do think there’s a problem right now with dark angels and blood angels essentially being marines +1. It doesn’t make much sense that they get everything marines get, plus a lot more unique stuff, plus better CTs. The marine codex really suffered from being first, I think.

It's 5 th ed all over again, except this time DA are in on the fun! And we're all still crap compared to IG! OMG, it IS 5th ed! Isn't that everyone's favorite on here? 5th ed?

space marines are designed to be mid tier.

But but but ATSKNF and Combat Squads!!!!!!!

I'm feeling like FW is necessary for SM to compete. Quad mortars and Scorpius are the perfect counter for reaper spam, deredeos are the perfect anti-flyer, leviathans are anti everything, Sicarans are fantastic with the reduced points.

 buddha wrote:
I'm feeling like FW is necessary for SM to compete. Quad mortars and Scorpius are the perfect counter for reaper spam, deredeos are the perfect anti-flyer, leviathans are anti everything, Sicarans are fantastic with the reduced points.

How much (and where?) were the Sicarans reduced by?

Razerous wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I'm feeling like FW is necessary for SM to compete. Quad mortars and Scorpius are the perfect counter for reaper spam, deredeos are the perfect anti-flyer, leviathans are anti everything, Sicarans are fantastic with the reduced points.

How much (and where?) were the Sicarans reduced by?

Chapter approved. Usually around a 75 point drop per variant which makes them useful again.

I'm definitely a fan of the Scorpius in a parking lot. If you got your rerolls going, that's an average of 12 shots going off (assuming you don't move, but that's unlikely).

I've just ordered 6 Dark Imperium Inceptors. Mostly because they are cheap, I like their rules and I kinda need more anti horde in my lists. So I'll be using them with their Assault Bolters. Just wanted to know, if Dark Imperium ones even come with plasma bits. Do they? Couldn't find out that.

Mandragola wrote:
A dark talon should never kill a whole unit with its bomb. You do a mortal wound on a 4+ for each model. Did you roll 10 dice against 5 guys?

Devastators are a good target for it but hellblasters shouldn’t be.

That said, I do think there’s a problem right now with dark angels and blood angels essentially being marines +1. It doesn’t make much sense that they get everything marines get, plus a lot more unique stuff, plus better CTs. The marine codex really suffered from being first, I think.

I don't think that being the first codex had a work in this, after all the DA chapter trait was in absolute the first one spoiled, we had it at the same time as the release of the indices. This tells us that the chapter traits were already set in stone a long time ago.

macexor wrote:
I've just ordered 6 Dark Imperium Inceptors. Mostly because they are cheap, I like their rules and I kinda need more anti horde in my lists. So I'll be using them with their Assault Bolters. Just wanted to know, if Dark Imperium ones even come with plasma bits. Do they? Couldn't find out that.

Nope, unfortunately there are no weapon customisation bits in the DI set.

Quick question from a noob, the idndex says that the Deathwatch can get special issue bolter ammunition. How does that work? Do you give every unit one at the beginning of the game, or can you change it up per unit per turn?

Also how does that stack up against other chapter abilities?

Shrapnelbait wrote:
Quick question from a noob, the idndex says that the Deathwatch can get special issue bolter ammunition. How does that work? Do you give every unit one at the beginning of the game, or can you change it up per unit per turn?

Also how does that stack up against other chapter abilities?

You choose what type of ammo your guys fire whenever they shoot.

Dakka Inceptors are great now. Good choice! Their bases are a bit tricky though. My tip: 1) glue the stand directly to the base usimg a good superglue, then paint over. Score the bottom of the stand for extra grip 2) the stands actually come with a little circular nub atrached to them. Don't cut it off! It works well as another contact point for your glue, amd isn't visible on the table. This makes them pretty solid, haven't had a break once.

So the Fire Raptor went down in points a bunch.

So the standard is now going to be Tiggy+Guilliman+Fire Raptor. What will marines support this with?

Well, I did a second game against my brother's Dark Angels with my Crimson Fists and tallied a win this time. This time I replaced my Lascannon Razorbacks with Assault Cannon Razorbacks. They definitely got a lot more work done. My Rhino Primaris has been taken out in both battles before I even got first turn. My Devastators received two chaff Marines with the extra points, not that they needed them since the entire squad lived through the whole battle. My brother REALLY hates my Hellblasters. One squad was the target of one of his Dark Talons, the other ate a bunch of Black Knight shots. Pedro, my Captain, and my Lieutenant ate through two entire squads of Black Knights on their own. A Razorback exploding ended up taking down a Dark Talon (one of the funniest happenings of the game). We did make a couple of mistakes (we kept accidentally giving his Talonmaster and Dark Talon Azrael's Invulnerable save, and he forgot that he gave the Talonmaster the Shroud of Heroes.), but overall the game was fun. We both haven't played too much in 8th yet (this was his second game and my fourth).

What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

Chronus is great in a pred - it's too bad you can only take 1 of him. It's really not much better than a pred for it's price though and I think he's gone up 5 points in chapter approved. It's just great you can take a preditor as an HQ.

I wish Iron Hands got a superfly tank HQ line Chronos.

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

He dies turn 1 to any enemy fire. If you get 1st turn he should do work, if not he goes away before he gets to do anything giving up a ton of Champion's Missions points. He's not that much more expensive than a regular pred but I've just found he dies (even supported by tigarius' -1 to hit) way too easy to build any type of strategy around (although I find this happens to all of my vehicles that don't fly).

bananathug wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

He dies turn 1 to any enemy fire. If you get 1st turn he should do work, if not he goes away before he gets to do anything giving up a ton of Champion's Missions points. He's not that much more expensive than a regular pred but I've just found he dies (even supported by tigarius' -1 to hit) way too easy to build any type of strategy around (although I find this happens to all of my vehicles that don't fly).

I've never had him die in turn 1 - he's always behind something when deployed (last), and his positioning means anybody getting in range and los to take him out turn 1 will be in a gak position for the following turn and gets punished for it, so my opponents never do it.

Lemondish wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

He dies turn 1 to any enemy fire. If you get 1st turn he should do work, if not he goes away before he gets to do anything giving up a ton of Champion's Missions points. He's not that much more expensive than a regular pred but I've just found he dies (even supported by tigarius' -1 to hit) way too easy to build any type of strategy around (although I find this happens to all of my vehicles that don't fly).

I've never had him die in turn 1 - he's always behind something when deployed (last), and his positioning means anybody getting in range and los to take him out turn 1 will be in a gak position for the following turn and gets punished for it, so my opponents never do it.

lol, you might not have faced Eldar and going 2nd. If you did you will feel it.

The BA tactics thread discusses whether it should only discuss mono-BA builds.

I'd configure an army with 40% shooting elements vs. tanks/monster, 40% shooting and cc vs. infantry, and 20% misc. such as infiltrating and objective sitting.

How should an SM soup army look like fulfilling the above requirements?

I'd suggest a Ravenguard firebase vs. tanks and monsters such as Devs w/missile launchers or lascannons, or Predators w/ autocannons and lascannons.

Next, I'd include BA for cc such as DC or SG.

The remaining percent could be filled by Ravenguard Scouts for objective sitting and whatnot.

Thoughts?

How my Salamanders doing?

Last I played them lots of dreads and some agressors with vulkan backing them up

Splitting up lascannons in 5 man tac squads worked great

Any other killer strats?

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
How my Salamanders doing?

Last I played them lots of dreads and some agressors with vulkan backing them up

Splitting up lascannons in 5 man tac squads worked great

Any other killer strats?

Yeah, taking 9 man tac squads with a combi and a special, (Meltas do really well here) and chuck them in a rhino with a character. Have a couple of these and blast up the board. Due to your tactics you're pretty much guaranteed 2 hits and wounds with the meltas, and your opponent has to shoot through seven marines before they can start having an effect on the big weapons.

Other good idea for dev squads is taking a plasma cannon amongst them and using the signum on that, as the +1 to hit means they can't over heat. Ironclad dreads are always great choices, and giving your characters good weapons also goes great. I've got a librarian with a grav pistol that does a good bit of work. The only problem I have with salamanders tactics is it makes me feel like my tanks are half useless haha.

The Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile stratagems are notably better for Salamanders, since you can re-roll that all or nothing hit roll for them without having to waste extra command points.

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
How my Salamanders doing?

Last I played them lots of dreads and some agressors with vulkan backing them up

Splitting up lascannons in 5 man tac squads worked great

Any other killer strats?

Dread with las/missile launcher aren't half bad either, as they benefit well from the CT

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

He dies turn 1 to any enemy fire. If you get 1st turn he should do work, if not he goes away before he gets to do anything giving up a ton of Champion's Missions points. He's not that much more expensive than a regular pred but I've just found he dies (even supported by tigarius' -1 to hit) way too easy to build any type of strategy around (although I find this happens to all of my vehicles that don't fly).

I've never had him die in turn 1 - he's always behind something when deployed (last), and his positioning means anybody getting in range and los to take him out turn 1 will be in a gak position for the following turn and gets punished for it, so my opponents never do it.

lol, you might not have faced Eldar and going 2nd. If you did you will feel it.

No, I have, and those are the people who either put themselves in super gakky situations where they can kill him, but can't shoot anything else for another whole turn. That would probably win me the game after I dismantle the rest of their army before the heavy hitters come around again, or they spread out and position themselves to hit my other, more dangerous components. I say probably, because I've never seen it happen. The quality of opponent I face, they never really fall for that, hence why he's never been killed turn 1 on me. He dies, all the time, but never before being able to act. I usually lose something else of value, of course, because Eldar alpha is quick and painful, but it's never been Chronus.

 tpogs wrote:
I wish Iron Hands got a superfly ANYTHING.

Fixed that for you.

But honestly, why in the world would the Chapter renowned for their “Machine Empathy” get an HQ who is good at piloting machines. That just doesn’t make sense at all. The generic poster boy Chapter deserves all the good stuff.

Median Trace wrote:

 tpogs wrote:
I wish Iron Hands got a superfly ANYTHING.

Fixed that for you.

But honestly, why in the world would the Chapter renowned for their “Machine Empathy” get an HQ who is good at piloting machines. That just doesn’t make sense at all. The generic poster boy Chapter deserves all the good stuff.

Agreed. It's irritating that some pretty generic characters (tank ace, and super scout) have been made as ultramarine special characters. It would make more sense to have them be generic, since nothing about the ultramarines says they should have the best of those kinds of guys.

Median Trace wrote:

 tpogs wrote:
I wish Iron Hands got a superfly ANYTHING.

Fixed that for you.

But honestly, why in the world would the Chapter renowned for their “Machine Empathy” get an HQ who is good at piloting machines. That just doesn’t make sense at all. The generic poster boy Chapter deserves all the good stuff.

Maybe let Ironhand have a special Chatpter Champion or even Chapter Master in Dreadnought? having 9W, a 4++ and 5+ Fnp?

A special Character Dreadnought would be great as part of the next Triumvirate box.

They probably should do that dread or what was it called the forge father again?

Anyone running anything deepstriking that compares favorably to 3x eversors a culexus and celestine+seraphim (700 ish points)?

Just for the wounds alone they seem to be half the cost of other options and their offensive output + 3d6 charge/AoF seems to be the best deepstriking option across the codexes (BA 2x DC + 1x SG + support characters?)

Thinking of running a battalion and spearhead of 3x manticores, 4x guardsmen, 3x 3 mortar crews, 3x scion command squads some tempestor primes, harker and a couple psychers.

I'd love to fit a couple bolter-cepters, a unit of aggressors and some deepstriking CqC but I can't find anything cheaper/better than the celestine assassin bomb. I'd be willing to drop the mortars to make room but 99 points doesn't really buy a lot of marines

Am I missing anything here? Any other ideas how to get a solid cost effective beta-strike out of a SM list?

At 700 point game against those id say a dread sock because its annoying.

but ultimately id say ignore the culexus unless you have auto hitting weapons, and just do whatever you can to blow up the assassins and sisters.

Since invulsaves id say dont bother with too high an ap weapon like the plasma and go for weight of fire.

Median Trace wrote:
A special Character Dreadnought would be great as part of the next Triumvirate box.

Maybe but the next triuvirate will likely include a primarch. Still I'd go with for the next Trimvirate:

Triumvirate of the Wolf.

Lemen Russ,
A Iron Hands unique Primaris character
A sister of Silence Unique character (allowing people to deploy sisters of silence in thier own detachment)

What do people think of Vanguard Veterans with Plasma Pistols and Chainswords? Every tactica I see about VV have them taking Lightening Claws, TH/SS, or dual Plasma Pistols. These have the VV functioning as sledgehammers basically in the role of anti-marine single wound, anti-monster, and anti-vehicle/monster drop.

However, I want to try try 5 VV with PP and Chainsword that go with Captain Invulnerable (Shield Eternal). Since the captain grants re-rolls of one's, it seems like to me that you're kind of wasting this ability to safeguard your plasma weapons if you don't take any! Also now that pistols can be used at 1" in the shooting phase, they aren't useless like in previous editions. I also don't want to go with a pure LC or dual chainsword since I have nothing to ensure they get the 9 inch charge after a deep strike since i'm not taking Shrike. TH/SS setup I'd imagine you wouldn't deep strike them as much.

I guess the role I envision for these VV isn't a pure sledgehammer role but rather a mobile reserve role that is highly versatile. I figure having the ability to pump in 5 plasma shots if the opponent doesn't bubble wrap his tank up is nice. However, still having 3 attacks with a single chainsword is not bad against hordes even though it's not the 4 attacks that can be gained from double chainswords. The points cost for the plasma pistols seem really fair when compared with power swords and power axes which may struggle to ever be swung.

Seems like to me that the plasma pistols are a force multiplier. I kind of see VV more like enhanced Assault Marines and a mobile versatile reserve rather than pure hammer units like terminators. Is this a good setup or am I missing something fundamentally? I mean returning to this edition means my eyes jump at the thought of plasma pistols now being cheaper points wise by half (instead of 15 in past editions) then before and able to be used in melee!

The extra 5 attacks at the opportunity cost of 5 plasma shots isn't worth it, IMO. Unless you're really worried about the 35 points, I suppose.

The types of things you'll be wanting to assault aren't really going to need 5 more attacks to either tie up or kill, while 5 extra plasma shots doubles your damage output. If you're going as far as to use a captain for the rerolls, you really should go all in.

However, if you're going BT or White Scars (For reroll charge/charge out of fall back), there may be some merit to doing 10 man squads with a mix of some melee, storm shields and double plas pistols.

The double plasma pistols brings the models quite expensive for a single wound model. Granted 10 plasma pistol shots of 5 models is good but at that point I could pretty much take Company Veterans with Plasma Guns for cheaper. Since I'm using Lias and Raptors, Company Veterans as a drop for plasma are cheaper both body-wise and gun wise than taking dual pistol VV.

I guess I am using them more like an Assault Squad dropping 3 plasma pistols then VV as a hammer unit. I'm paying 24 more pts for 2 more pistols and 5 base model attacks. Seems kind of worth it to me.

I'm not sure why dual chainsword is so popular if you plan on deep striking them. They have a 28% chance of rolling a 9 without re-rolls and only goes up to like 50% with re-rolls. That isn't great at all. I guess they are just kept cheap and hope for charge in 2nd turn or you don't deep strike them at all. I guess dual plasma pistol makes the most sense as a complete drop unit. However, I wanted to sort of split the difference with a single plasma and a chiansword.

IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

Also given the nature of these charge rolls, the variability is also very high even if the expected average comes in at roughly 50%. Doesn't seem like a sound strategy to me to tool up for melee fighting on such a coin flip. I kind of wish charging was a D3 element instead of D6 element and think that would improve the game. Sort of like how the Predator auto cannon works compared with D6 weaponry like Lascannon. Like the Pred Autocannon, I'd rather give up some damage potential for less variability and more normal damage curve.

The 35 pts spent on a single plasma pistol each is kind of like a hedge that the unit will still be useful...

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

No, mine's rerolling one dice if you get one that's 4+ on the first result and otherwise using the reroll to reroll both.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

No, mine's rerolling one dice if you get one that's 4+ on the first result and otherwise using the reroll to reroll both.

Who is granting you the re-roll to both? Shrike?

I'm not taking Shrike since I'm lead my Lias/Raptors so I don't get that re-roll. Even then, the probability is 58% I believe for re-roll on both dice. (again I am taking this from another article I read). 58% is hardly the most glamorous.

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

No, mine's rerolling one dice if you get one that's 4+ on the first result and otherwise using the reroll to reroll both.

Who is granting you the re-roll to both? Shrike?

I'm not taking Shrike since I'm lead my Lias/Raptors so I don't get that re-roll. Even then, the probability is 58% I believe for re-roll on both dice. (again I am taking this from another article I read). 58% is hardly the most glamorous.

Being Black Templars. Still, my response was in response to someone who said it was a 50-sh% chance with rerolls, to which I pointed out that a CP increases it to 72ish%. I wasn't taking into account where the reroll was from.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

It is 72% CONTINGENT on you rolling a 4+ on one dice on the first roll is what you said. That isn't overall percentage since there are a few ways to not roll a 4 on 2 dice. We all have rolled 5 and 6 on 2 dice before . You didn't factor that into your 72% quote or you are just making a point that there is 72% chance if you do roll a 4 in the first place (which is a good recommendation on how to use a CP).

The overall percentage to roll a 9 with re-rolls of 2 dice is 58%. That's the max % it can be and higher than what you are quoting is my point.

No, mine's rerolling one dice if you get one that's 4+ on the first result and otherwise using the reroll to reroll both.

Who is granting you the re-roll to both? Shrike?

I'm not taking Shrike since I'm lead my Lias/Raptors so I don't get that re-roll. Even then, the probability is 58% I believe for re-roll on both dice. (again I am taking this from another article I read). 58% is hardly the most glamorous.

Being Black Templars. Still, my response was in response to someone who said it was a 50-sh% chance with rerolls, to which I pointed out that a CP increases it to 72ish%. I wasn't taking into account where the reroll was from.

It's not 72% straight like you are saying. It's only 72% if you roll a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice. Then re-rolling ONE dice by using the CP which gets you to 72% if you had already rolled a 4 on one dice. You have to factor in the chances that you don't get a 4 on either of your first 2 dice.

The 58% chance is the max it can be I believe since that's factoring in 2 dice re-roll. That 58% for re-rolling 2 dice is more than you re-rolling one dice. Hence, Shrike's ability for rerolling charges is the same as you have for Black templar.

Odds to make a 9" charge:

No Re-roll: ~27%
Re-roll Both Only: ~48%
Re-roll Low Die Only: ~52%
Re-roll Low on 4+, Both Otherwise: ~57% (best overall odds achievable by re-rolls alone)

I'm misremembering, 55.29% is the max you can get it up to using a source of "reroll both" and a CP (not using both at once, just using the one that's better for any given roll), you're right.

BrianDavion wrote:

Median Trace wrote:
A special Character Dreadnought would be great as part of the next Triumvirate box.

Maybe but the next triuvirate will likely include a primarch. Still I'd go with for the next Trimvirate:

Triumvirate of the Wolf.

Lemen Russ,
A Iron Hands unique Primaris character
A sister of Silence Unique character (allowing people to deploy sisters of silence in thier own detachment)

Doubt the Iron Hands would ever get any sort of character. They have one character for 40K, Vaylund Cal, and one actual model being Ferrus Manus.

If they were to get one I would love for it to be a Techmarine OR Kadran Stronos. But Stronos is unlikely since "his" axe is already a relic.

And this is why Blood Angels Stratagems help so much. They have 1 stratagem that helps Death Company exclusively and a general Jump Pack one. It really is kind of a shame that we as regular marines are at such coin-flip odds. Not only are they coin flips, but they also have lots of variance/deviation as compared with say D3 rolls or 3d6 on the charge.

Don't get me wrong, if they do get to charge with 2 attacks base before factoring in chainswords or other weapons, they are still amazing and cost-effective. No one would say 18 points for a base jump trooper with 2 attacks is bad. But given the charge rules for 9", it just creates this polar duality where they are making it into combat and great or not making it into combat and stuck. Hence my interest in taking a pistol. Doesn't have to be plasma pistol and can be bolt, but anything to help smooth out the performance so that there is some middle ground.

2 pistol shooting I'm not sure is the answer either since you can probably fine more efficient rapid fire weapons and these rapid fire weapons also have an option of 24 inch single shot. Sure VV get to deep strike with jump packs and company veterans/sternguard can't do it automatically. But there seems to be enough delivery mechanisms if you think about it.

To me this really pushes me towards the direction of Storm Shields to weather the attacks, taking Shrike or anything to help with re-rolls, or just taking this single single plasma pistol route. Again I am biased as a 3rd/4th edition player because this is finally the dream of PP being able to be used to both shoot and no longer be useless if in melee range.

18 points for base jump trooper with 2 attacks is bad.

Considering you can get berzerkers for 17 points a pop with a chainaxe for 6 s6 -1ap attacks and 2 s5 -0s.

Or genestealers with base 5 attacks at -1ap for 12 points...

Compare to what else you can get for that 18 points and it gets clear that 18 points for a marine with 2 attacks is bad. Hell DC without proper support characters are bad. 18 points for 4 s4 0ap is still worse than stealers or zerkers, you have to start spending CP and have hella support characters to start to close the gap and by then you are spending so much more that it's still a bad trade.

Start adding pistols and storm shields you are paying 30 points for a 1 wound model that dies to 3 hits (3++ saves 2/3) and still hits like a wet-noodle, one plasma pistol isn't doing much of anything, 5 of them is still insignificant damage (3 hits, 2 wounds at 12" is a bad deal for 125 points)

Just a heads up to what's really out there before you get too enamored with what's in front of you.

The big reason that they are more expensive is they can start off the table and drop down. That has to be factored into the cost.

The plasma pistols are never meant to shoot at single wound infantry. Even with captain support who helps about 4 hit, that's not the point. It's the ability to overcharge and shoot at a vehicle and put 5-6 wounds on it. Sure it's not going to take down a whole 8-10 wound vehicle, but you have other shooting.

Honestly, not sure that Lightening Claws are better. You're investing even more to kill single wound infantry which to your point is never the purpose. The whole point of Lightening claw terminators for me was to always go after Space Marine Devastator squads who have basic stats but are primo expensive with weapons. Trying to chomp down on troops is not worth it.

I'll try the dual plasma pistol setup as well. It just seems to me that we focus on taking sledgehammer units in isolation rather than incorporating shooting in a holistic way. Plasma to me is not the most efficient to spam for marines because it's not really cheap like guard. It's honestly less efficient at vehicle killing then lascannons, worse against multiword then Grav (although grad is much worse this edition), and not as good in some scenarios as Assault Cannons. What it is to me IMO is a swing weapon being versatile in a pinch and can be useful as a coup de grace to support other weapons.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
Odds to make a 9" charge:

No Re-roll: ~27%
Re-roll Both Only: ~48%
Re-roll Low Die Only: ~52%
Re-roll Low on 4+, Both Otherwise: ~57% (best overall odds achievable by re-rolls alone)

This looks right to me. Charging from deep strike is really difficult. You’re never going to get that 72% chance some people mentioned. Even if one dice is a 6 then a reroll on the other would need a 3+, which is a 66% chance of making it.

It does help a lot to have rerolls of charges. The option of rerolling both dice if needed is still good, even if it’s jusy giving you another 27% chance. If either dice is a 4 then you’re better off using a xp, for the 33% chance of rolling a 5+ on the other dice.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, there's literally no good Space Marine melee options for killing anything but GEQ. Double chainsword Vanguard Veterans are great GEQ blenders and Reivers can be as well. Anything else, 2 attacks are just not enough.

TH/SS Terminators? Yeah they can take a beating, but 2 attacks hitting on a 4+, wounding most things on a 3+, means not a whole lot is getting through. Lots of heavy elite gak has invuln save these days. Every time I have fielded Assault Terminators I'm disappointed.

Vanguard Vets with Power Weapons or Lightning Claws? Too expensive to just die like a marine. Again, 2 attacks? That's it? Just two? gak GW come on throw us a fething bone.

Oh, if we want CC anything we're supposed to just play BA or Space Wolves. Got it.

 ultimentra wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again, there's literally no good Space Marine melee options for killing anything but GEQ.

Try contemptor dreadnoughts. They make a very efficient melee platform. Pretty quick, hit on a 2+, get CTs and S14 means they wound most stuff on a 2+.

How much are Vanguard with two Lightning Claws again? Think the claws were 4 points a pop right?

Dual lightening claws is more than 10 pts and same cost as Power Fist. Taking Lightening Claws to kill single wound infantry is pretty much not worth it IMO. They should be going after things that have single wound, no invulnerable saves, and have expensive weapons. Basically they are really good against hunting Devastator squads etc. You can kill a decent amount of regular infantry with LC's, but usually it just isn't worth it.

I gave some serious thought to twin lightning claws, and after seeing them in action a few times they don't deliver for the price.

Given that Marines are, somewhat controversial opinion here, overcosted anyway, a pair of lightning claws shouldn't cost more than 7 points. The reason is that you're giving up any shooting you had on a model with a 3+ ballistic skill. That should count for something.

 ultimentra wrote:
I gave some serious thought to twin lightning claws, and after seeing them in action a few times they don't deliver for the price.

Given that Marines are, somewhat controversial opinion here, overcosted anyway, a pair of lightning claws shouldn't cost more than 7 points. The reason is that you're giving up any shooting you had on a model with a 3+ ballistic skill. That should count for something.

This is kind of my point on the fact that even Vanguard Veterans who could be thought of as the SM unit that is most geared for close combat could benefit from a pistol or a way of doing more damage.

I think the point is that Vanguard Vets are not meant to be going after enemy troops. They are not how we think of Elites "bullying" enemy common Troops. As many of you have said, the power of the horde is strong in this edition so that it doesn't make sense pts or efficiency wise.

So that's where I think either TH/SS or Plasma Pistols make sense to turn VV into Elite "hunters". You're going big game hunting in essence. You could argue whether other units play this big game hunter role better than VV. VV do have incredible flexibility though.

If you take TH/SS on them you will be disappointed. Five vanguard vets with Thunder Hammers means five hits because you're hitting on a 4+ now. Good luck if your enemy has -1 to hit. You're wounding most big things or nasty things on a 3. If you're hitting a T4 or 3 thing with a thunder hammer hey great I hope you have other AT options.

Wounding on a 3+ on those five hits means 3 wounds. Its only -3 AP so your opponent will still have a 6+ armor or an invuln. Think about how many wounds that actually is and how worth it it will be at the end of the day. This is why I don't try assault terminators anymore. They're tanky, yes, but they can't actually kill anything worth while for their point cost. At least not in my experience.

Then when your opponent double fires that punisher cannon or similar weapon at your VV and they get wiped, then you'll know why its not a good idea unless you play Raven Guard.

-1 To Hit in melee doesn't exist a lot to be fair, but you're right that it is likely 6-9 wounds total. At that price point I'd rather just go into Assault Terminators.

Problem with that is assault terminators aren't great either. Tried them a few times, like I said they're hard to kill unless your opponent is mortal wound spamming, but they don't actually kill things very well.

To be honest I think hellblasters are better than just about any other plasma platform. They are about the same cost as vanguard or company vets (give or take a point or two) but have two wounds and way better range.

It's true that your opponent will hate them and shoot them dead if he can, but they are tougher than mini-marines and can do their thing from further away, where it's safer.

Anyone care to explain how this list won a GT?

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Edward-Walker-1st-Overall-DaBoyz-GT-2017.pdf

Celestine
2x 10 devs, 2x las 1x ML, cherub
1x 5 devs, 1x las, 1x ML, 1x HB, cherub
Fire-raptor
2x razorbacks w/ TL-AC + HKM
1x razorback w/ TL-Laz + HKM
Gman

Only 25 devastator bodies should have been easy to kill, 3x razor backs should have gone down in a turn or two. Either that fire raptor + celestine did major work, the dice gods smiled upon him, he's some sort of tactical genius or something happened that we should talk about because that list seems crazy.

No screen, no fast moving troops to capture objectives (hell no obsec at all), not enough dakka for hordes, lots of las-cannons but how the hell did he beat any of the current meta lists (berserkers, nids, morty+mag, dark reapers, boyz) it seems those lists would just dominate this one.

I just don't get it unless celestine and that fire-raptor just murdered everything on the table.

The more I learn about 8th ed results, the less I know.

Probably sheer luck. It won't happen again.

Well he has a ton of firepower, including a fire raptor with Gman under it. Get up close and enjoy fighting Gman and Celestine in CC.

It’s not an unbeatable list but it’s pretty nasty. I don’t know if it could work against a tank company. Maybe it didn’t meet one.

I don't know. I just don't get it. Celestine w/o chaff is really easy to shoot down, Gman is a tough target so maybe he forces/lets you to shoot at gman, charges with celestine and lets all those fire raptor guns blow enemies off the table?

But then how does he score any objective points because celestine is terrible at camping objectives and razorbacks are pretty easy to remove for most tourney lists?

It just seems like so much of it's shooting is tied up in the fire-raptor. Kill it and he loses. With so few drops it shouldn't be that hard to position your anti-armor stuff w/in range of it.

Only takes 16 dark reaper shots to take that thing down (less than 1 ynarii unit w/ SFD), 14 las cannons, one round of morty or magnus (all stuff I see in my local meta, I can't believe these types of lists were missing completely from this rather large tourney.)

I just don't get it, 14 t7 -1 to hit wounds isn't hard to get rid of for most tourney lists right? Hell I have the potential to lose 3-4 razorbacks turn 1 in pretty much every tourney game I play and that's 40ish t7 wounds.

Maybe he just got off meta lists but his strength of schedule score was pretty high too.

With the cost reduction of those things (down to 360ish from 420ish) I wonder if we're going to see them replace storm ravens. Those things do pack A LOT of dakka...

Looks heavily reliant on getting off the alpha strike, then likely trying to cripple rather than kill as many units as possible early on and tie up shooty units by charging in Celestine and the Fire Raptor. I'm mostly surprised that Celestine isn't in an aux detachment to free up the Hellfire and Flakk stratagems. The 10 bolter Devs rather than another shooty Dev unit is also a bit surprising, but those would be there to hedge for when he doesn't go 1st. The list should win a decent number of games, but would need a good amount of luck to take the top spot IMHO.

I may be wrong, but in the past Da Boyz has had some unique list construction limitations and mission packets. Anyone familiar with the conditions under which they were playing?

Their 2017 player pack is here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-uIogGWwuuhWkxjek4zVFBkM2M/view

Looks like multiple missions that favor tabling the opponent if possible and killing as much as possible. Also no rules from after Nov 1, so this was before the CA point changes, though overall the list dropped 1 point.

Never forget that beyond skill and list, tournaments revolve around pairings, table layouts and luck. A bad pairing on a bad table with rotten dice will screw even the best player with the best list. And the opposite is true too.

The list looks... weird. I really wish the aura of characters didn't impact flyers unless the character has fly as well.

Just played against the new daemon book, every time I look at one of the newer books I just feel more and more outgunned and under powered. Crazy stratagems that swing the game and don't cost 3 command points...

Its fething depressing. I just can't field enough models with how expensive marine units are to keep up. I just don't get it. I really hope GW fixes this. I don't have high hopes but ever since Chapter Approved nerfing the Storm Raven and the LRC, two units that I relied on as a crutch, I just feel like I have no punch left.

I thought Chapter Approved was going to help even things out, but ever since the Imperial Guard, Nid, and Daemon books have come out I have had nothing but a string of losses to both codex and index armies.

Completely agree ultimentra. I've been pouring over this forum and the codex and nothing substantial sticks out, it's almost like Codex SM was like a test Codex for others to improve upon. Real shame, I thought with the addition of Primaris, Marines would be on the rise again.

Trying combos without Guilliman is proving harder than I expected, but I think I've found something based on Reivers and Pedro Kantor's +1 Attack buff. Needs more testing, since I haven't played much against Guard (being public enemy no.1).

I think the custodes codex is even a further kick in the sensitive bits as their strats are awesome and would make so much sense with vanilla marines.

I really feel like our codex (and GK for that matter) were rough drafts. Or *tinfoil hat* GW wanted to get the masses of SM players back so teased us with the first dex hoping we'd get hooked again and then have to buy a "good" army once we realized how fethed we are...

A small detachment of jetbikes might work well with a SM force.

The main problem I see with the jetbikes is that they are going to get focused hard core by your opponent. Gotta figure out a way to have something else pose enough of a threat they that don't just blow their entire army's load on the jetbikes. Either that, or hope that they're cheap enough that they become a distraction carnifex.

Rumor has it @ 80 points per bike naked. My guess is kitted around 110 points. Kind of expensive for a distraction because they need the detachment custodes rule (+1 to invlun right?) so you're committing at least 1/4 of a 2k point army to the detachment and I think those 500 points would be better spent on guard to patch our weaknesses.

I would love a way to fit a squad or two of custodes (I love gold and lions) into my army but I may just settle for collecting and painting them for now..

It should be easy enough to hide the jetbikes and maybe they can deepstrike. If you run a patrol detachment you could take a shield captain on a jetbike, maybe there’s a one man unit for your compulsory troop choice and a jetbike squad.

bananathug wrote:
I think the custodes codex is even a further kick in the sensitive bits as their strats are awesome and would make so much sense with vanilla marines.

I really feel like our codex (and GK for that matter) were rough drafts. Or *tinfoil hat* GW wanted to get the masses of SM players back so teased us with the first dex hoping we'd get hooked again and then have to buy a "good" army once we realized how fethed we are...

I don't see custodes as being an army that stands on their own, but they will give some very nice editions to other imperial armies. Mostly guard at first glance, but Marines will have some interesting things too I believe.

Hey, I'm thinking of using Scouts as troop options in my Ultramarines army. I'm thinking of running a 5-man team with Boltguns and a Heavy Bolter in my 500 point army. Is that a good loadout? I figure I'd take advantage of the strategem even in lower point games. Could make a difference.

bananathug wrote:
Rumor has it @ 80 points per bike naked. My guess is kitted around 110 points. Kind of expensive for a distraction because they need the detachment custodes rule (+1 to invlun right?) so you're committing at least 1/4 of a 2k point army to the detachment and I think those 500 points would be better spent on guard to patch our weaknesses.

I would love a way to fit a squad or two of custodes (I love gold and lions) into my army but I may just settle for collecting and painting them for now..

Current rumors have the bikes with Hurricane Bolters around 90 and with Missle at 105-110. I really like the Hurricane Bolter option if it is 90-ish a pop. Minimum unit size on the bikes will be key - if it's 1 or 2 a detachment is very doable, but if it's minimum three then it starts to get really pricey.

I think there are a lot of Marine lists that could make great use of the jetbikes.

With the new CA point increases on guilliman and asscannon razorbacks, are they still work taking?

As far as a tourney scene goes, like LVO or what not, other than the Rowboat gunline are there any other viable list fo SM? Curious for players who have seen any changes in the win/loss since the CA came out.

Rowboat + Tiggarius and Fire Raptors(storm ravens) seems to be the new hotness (a few scouts to screen).

ITC champion missions punishes Gman + AssBacks a lot (gives up sooooo many points) and dark reapers spam destroys that list like nobody's business.

LVO is this weekend but in a couple tournies so far this year FireBoats (RowPtors? Tig Boats? TiGulaTors???) has proven quite formidable.

Comp list checklist:
Can it survive a 30 dark reaper alpha?
Bloodletter/berserker/scion bomb proof?
Kill Morty+Mag?
Can it deal with IG out of LOS artillery/tank spam?
Horde control? (?100 t3-4 5-6+ Ws in 3 turns?)
(anything I'm missing?)

Nids have several options but seem to be variations on the above themes (out of LOS/genestealer bomb/dakka fexes/flyrants) but if you can answer yes to the above then your list is ready for tournament play.

And honestly, we cannot do that right now. Dark reaper or Leman Russ spam is what worries me the most because it’s so hard to prevent.

I’m hoping that the March re-balancing FAQs are substantial in some way, because outlier units like that are messing up the game. The signs are good, as several earlier outliers have been nerf-batted.

The annoying thing is I’m trying to get ready for a couple of big tournaments in May (the London GT and UKGT finals) with no idea what the rules or the meta will be. This is actually quite fun in a way, but makes me a bit nervous too. Plan is to just to play a few practice games for now and then Really put the effort in after we see the FAQs.

I'm leaning towards the Sternguard Lias strike I've been testing around myself. Storm Bolters on everyone is pretty clutch in testing. I'd rather use Command Squads but they don't get Grav Cannons. Gotta take what I can get I suppose.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm leaning towards the Sternguard Lias strike I've been testing around myself. Storm Bolters on everyone is pretty clutch in testing. I'd rather use Command Squads but they don't get Grav Cannons. Gotta take what I can get I suppose.

Yep, and you can likely use multi meltas on devs for anti tank work since you end up in so close. Dunno how to easily get a lieutenant into the mix though

I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

Mandragola wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

Horrible glass cannon describes space marines as an army, yes

Mandragola wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

It's about the Grav Cannons too. Unfortunately we need a lot of things done at once to have a fighting chance. Sternguard get 2 Heavy Weapons (And Grav Cannons are pretty good), and then Storm Bolters on everything else. You just have to get enough wounds on your target so that, if they degrade, their BS value declines.

It works...okay. Devastators bring a lot more heavy weapons but they die like chumps, even when the individual costs 5 points less than a Sternguard. I'd rather get the potential extra attack and a Storm Bolter at that point. I'm still messing with configurations though mathematically. You can never be too safe.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

It's about the Grav Cannons too. Unfortunately we need a lot of things done at once to have a fighting chance. Sternguard get 2 Heavy Weapons (And Grav Cannons are pretty good), and then Storm Bolters on everything else. You just have to get enough wounds on your target so that, if they degrade, their BS value declines.

It works...okay. Devastators bring a lot more heavy weapons but they die like chumps, even when the individual costs 5 points less than a Sternguard. I'd rather get the potential extra attack and a Storm Bolter at that point. I'm still messing with configurations though mathematically. You can never be too safe.

Cool. I haven't tried it myself - I play Crimson Fists and mostly use Primaris stuff. But some people have used it and their reports are in this thread a few pages back.

The point is, Lias lets you deep strike. That's quite nice, but actually loads of stuff can deep strike. Loads of other stuff can just shoot lascannons from across the board without needing to deep strike.

The fundamental problem is that you are putting expensive models that aren't very tough close to the enemy. It's as bad an idea as it sounds. Sure, your alpha strike is pretty strong, but it's not amazing. If you were getting some kind of awesome first strike that conquered all opposition, then you could make a case for it, but that just isn't the case. Stuff is going to survive and it's going to kill you.

If you've got ravenguard CTs then you've got access to aggressors using SFtS. That is serious firepower. And you also have access to assault hellblasters, who can stay 24" away and pew pew from cover - where they are very difficult to get rid of. This approach just works far better than deep strike.

I'm considering Aggressors once I find suitable models for them. I don't like the aquila on the chest and that silly thing hanging from the crotch. My army being built is all Mk2-5.

So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

Raven Guard is the best all around, as only SUPER pure melee armies counter it. Even then, the Strategem for them is a good all-rounder.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

Raven Guard is the best all around, as only SUPER pure melee armies counter it. Even then, the Strategem for them is a good all-rounder.

Thanks il try raven guard then. Raven guard does work OK with a mixed drop pod/bike/gun line style of list correct?

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

Raven Guard is the best all around, as only SUPER pure melee armies counter it. Even then, the Strategem for them is a good all-rounder.

Thanks il try raven guard then. Raven guard does work OK with a mixed drop pod/bike/gun line style of list correct?

Ravenguard CTs work well for a gunline. They don't really do much for people coming out of pods, because you'll tend to be close to the enemy.

That said, drop pods are kind of terrible in 8th. Pay about a hundred points to give a unit an ability that loads of other units can already do for free. This kind of goes double for ravenguard, who can use strike from the shadows to deploy outside their deployment zones.

Depending on how your gunline is put together there are other CTs that could potentially be better. Dark angels get to reroll 1s to hit if they don't move. Fists ignore cover. Salamanders give you a reroll to hit and wound for each unit, which is great for things like dreads and tactical squads with heavy weapons.

Care to share your list? That might help.

Yeah the list im toying around with is
Captain on Bike Thunder Hammer Storm Shield
Librarian
10 tacticals multi melta melta gun combo melta drop pod
5 tacricals flamer combi flamer twin las cannon razor back
5 sniper scouts
9 tacticals multi melts drop pod (librarian goes here)

5 Bikers 2 nelta guns
Attack bike with multi melts

2 x 5 Devastator's with 4 Missile Launchers
That is the planned core of my list
Rest of it will alternate between
5 cataohracti Terminators
5 stern guard
Venerable dreadnought with twin las/assault cannon/ plasma cannon
Contemotor dreadnought
Tri las predator
Other HQs i have are
Captain in terminator armour (from the start collecting box)
Captain with Combi Grab power sword
Chaplin (the plastic space marine heroes one)
A librarian on bike.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

It's about the Grav Cannons too. Unfortunately we need a lot of things done at once to have a fighting chance. Sternguard get 2 Heavy Weapons (And Grav Cannons are pretty good), and then Storm Bolters on everything else. You just have to get enough wounds on your target so that, if they degrade, their BS value declines.

It works...okay. Devastators bring a lot more heavy weapons but they die like chumps, even when the individual costs 5 points less than a Sternguard. I'd rather get the potential extra attack and a Storm Bolter at that point. I'm still messing with configurations though mathematically. You can never be too safe.

Cool. I haven't tried it myself - I play Crimson Fists and mostly use Primaris stuff. But some people have used it and their reports are in this thread a few pages back.

The point is, Lias lets you deep strike. That's quite nice, but actually loads of stuff can deep strike. Loads of other stuff can just shoot lascannons from across the board without needing to deep strike.

The fundamental problem is that you are putting expensive models that aren't very tough close to the enemy. It's as bad an idea as it sounds. Sure, your alpha strike is pretty strong, but it's not amazing. If you were getting some kind of awesome first strike that conquered all opposition, then you could make a case for it, but that just isn't the case. Stuff is going to survive and it's going to kill you.

If you've got ravenguard CTs then you've got access to aggressors using SFtS. That is serious firepower. And you also have access to assault hellblasters, who can stay 24" away and pew pew from cover - where they are very difficult to get rid of. This approach just works far better than deep strike.

agressors and hellblasters only work if you go first

So seriously, is there a good alternative model to Aggressors or should I suck it up and chop up the models as needed?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So seriously, is there a good alternative model to Aggressors or should I suck it up and chop up the models as needed?

Probably not. outside of some serious kit bashing. or use terminators with some hefty anti infantry dakka.

So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I'm toying with a mixture of dual lightning claws, dual chainswords, and storm shield and chainsword. Sacrifice their ability to shoot entirely (except for grenades) to maximize their attack output in CC. I haven't run them yet, but I'm thinking of using SftS on a unit 5, equipped with 1 twin chainsword, 1 chainsword and shield, and 3 twin lightning claws (including on the sgt.) 7 chainsword attacks and 10 lightning claws, ideally buffed by a chaplain to reroll misses. 131 points without any characters, 223 with a jump pack chaplain with a storm bolter.

I know that I've seen other people suggest using thunder hammers, too.

Mandragola wrote:


The point is, Lias lets you deep strike. That's quite nice, but actually loads of stuff can deep strike. Loads of other stuff can just shoot lascannons from across the board without needing to deep strike.

The fundamental problem is that you are putting expensive models that aren't very tough close to the enemy. It's as bad an idea as it sounds. Sure, your alpha strike is pretty strong, but it's not amazing. If you were getting some kind of awesome first strike that conquered all opposition, then you could make a case for it, but that just isn't the case. Stuff is going to survive and it's going to kill you.

Hi, just on this, I've run Lias since his rules dropped (and before that in 7th edition). Up to now I've run it as sternguard and devs that drop in close. I'm starting to move away from that now though as a lot of armies can handle it and as you say, after the drop they are fragile marines.

I am going to try the drop as pure Devs, most of the time dropping more then 12 away. Basically using the deep strike as a way of getting them into a 2nd fire-base outside of the deployment zone. So for example my 2k list looks like this currently.

Raptors Spearhead Detachment

Lias (Fearless Bubble Warlord Trait)

10 Devs (Cherub, 4 Grav-Cannons)
10 Devs (Cherub, 4 Multi Meltas)
10 Devs (Cherub, 3 Multi Meltas, 1 Missile Launcher)


Battalion Detachment

Captain (Power Maul)
Lieutenant (Teeth of Terra)

Company Ancient (Standard of the Emperor Ascendant)

5 Scouts
5 Scouts
5 Scouts

10 Devs (Cherub, 4 Heavy Bolters)
10 Devs (Cherub, 4 Lascannons)

Battalion Detachment:

Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker

Culexus Assassin

Guard Infantry Squad
Guard Infantry Squad
Guard Infantry Squad

It is not as deadly as previous versions, but I think the trade off is worth it.

That seems like quite a decent list. Essentially you’re using Lias to stop your devs from being shot, and to get to within 24” of a target. That’s good because it’s both safer and harder to bubble wrap against.

I don’t love the IG battalion to be honest, but it’s a pretty good way of getting cheap CPs. It looks to me like you have an awful lot of stuff that you’re just taking as bubble wrap (all the scouts and guard infantry) and I’d prefer to just take things to kill the enemy, rather than to just inconvenience him. That said, you do have 20 guys with assorted heavy weapons to kill them with.

The main thing I'm not a fan of in the list is the Multi-Meltas. I don't feel they give the biggest bang for the buck.

The imperium soup detachment came about from playing the Raptors list.

I used to run it as pure space marines, then I found the deep striking element was smite fodder due to proximity. So I included the culexus.

I then found that the list was becoming two fire bases clumped around support characters, which left areas of the board including large swathes of my backfield bare. I used to run min tactical squads with a heavy weapon in the backfield, but obviously the guard do it cheaper.

The primaris psykers add some cheap psychic defense/offense.

I've found the scouts in this list are used to area deny the middle of the board. A lot of lists have things that can potentially deploy before your deep strikers and cover the board, which obviously poses a problem when you have 31 marines deep striking. The scouts largely counter that issue and you just have to be careful about other scouts/nurglings. Plus they add some ability to take objectives early on if they have nothing to screen.

I think between the backfield elements (devs/guard) and mid field (scouts/deep strikers) the list has a lot of board control early on.

The Mutli Meltas is because I own the models! I don't think they are bad though. A lot of stuff is t7 and the higher AP can be useful. If anything does get within 12, the melta rule is scary. Mainly it is because I own the models!

Hope that helps anyone thinking about using a Raptors list with Lias. I could be off base, but my experiences thus far have led to this list (which could always change again!)

Cool ok. I guess you do need objective campers, and getting the cheap IG guys isn’t a bad way to do it.

It’s an interesting list, and well done for getting it to work. I do think that devastators are a better way to use Lias than Sternguard. Glad you’re getting some use out of him.

Personally, I continue to think that he’s not really as amazing as a lot of the hype around him suggests. Like I’d just have more lascannon devastators somewhere safer rather than deep strike more expensive multi-melta ones.

It isn't hard to kill Marines though. You might as well try and strike as hard as you can. That's why I'm opting for Grav Cannons, for example, and getting close.

 godardc wrote:
So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I’ve had good success with 3X powerfist (including the sergeant for the extra attack) and 2X chainsword and storm shield, supported by a chaplain (with powerfist) for rerolls to offset the fist penalty. The storm shield guys soak wounds for the fists, and the fist guys can threaten anything. The unit is a little over 130.

Lightning claws are kind of attractive, but ultimately they constrain you to targets with low toughness, low saves, single wounds. A powerfist might get fewer attacks, but with higher strength and AP and multiple wounds, more of those attacks get converted to damage on multi-wound models. And a fist is a bit cheaper than a pair of claws. Thunderhammers are overpriced on anything with fewer than 3 attacks.

I have had good luck with this heap of junk. I call it the Millinieum Falcon of lists. It doesn’t look like much but it’s got it where it counts.

Captain on bike with thunder hammer
Librarian on bike with stave - Null Zone, Veil of Time
Captain with jump pack, powerfist
3 shooty Aggressors
3 shooty Aggressors
5 Vanguard Vets, jump pack, 5 plasma pistols
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
5 sniper Scouts
5 sniper Scouts
5 Scouts, missile
5 marines, lascannon
Attack bike with mm
Attack bike with mm
5 Assault marines with jump pack
5 Devastators, 4 Heavy bolters
Stalker
Thunderfire Cannon
Twin lascannon Razorback
Twin lascannon Razorback
Culuxes assassin

I play as Crimson Fists. I start with 12 cp, minus 1 for the Assassin. Minus 3 to turn the bike Captain into a chapter master I’ll give the jump Captain the Fist of Vengeance and sometimes the bike Captain the Primarchs Wrath.

The most expensive unit is the librarian at 129pts and everything has a roll. I can accentuate certain units each game depending on what my opponent has. The absolutely most important thing about this list is I can lose any unit and still be fine. There is no linchpin. That being said I’ve won some games not by killing the enemy dead, but by dieing slowly enough to win.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I’ve had good success with 3X powerfist (including the sergeant for the extra attack) and 2X chainsword and storm shield, supported by a chaplain (with powerfist) for rerolls to offset the fist penalty. The storm shield guys soak wounds for the fists, and the fist guys can threaten anything. The unit is a little over 130.

Lightning claws are kind of attractive, but ultimately they constrain you to targets with low toughness, low saves, single wounds. A powerfist might get fewer attacks, but with higher strength and AP and multiple wounds, more of those attacks get converted to damage on multi-wound models. And a fist is a bit cheaper than a pair of claws. Thunderhammers are overpriced on anything with fewer than 3 attacks.

I have heard people using them in a kind of «assassination unit» assaulting backfield units and characters, and they had success this way. Is it how you use them ? Obviously, I used them wrong, keeping with my old 7th habits.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I’ve had good success with 3X powerfist (including the sergeant for the extra attack) and 2X chainsword and storm shield, supported by a chaplain (with powerfist) for rerolls to offset the fist penalty. The storm shield guys soak wounds for the fists, and the fist guys can threaten anything. The unit is a little over 130.

Lightning claws are kind of attractive, but ultimately they constrain you to targets with low toughness, low saves, single wounds. A powerfist might get fewer attacks, but with higher strength and AP and multiple wounds, more of those attacks get converted to damage on multi-wound models. And a fist is a bit cheaper than a pair of claws. Thunderhammers are overpriced on anything with fewer than 3 attacks.

The main question though is how much more damage do we need to do on multi-wound models? Most of our range weapons we end up using already take care of this issue.

 godardc wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I’ve had good success with 3X powerfist (including the sergeant for the extra attack) and 2X chainsword and storm shield, supported by a chaplain (with powerfist) for rerolls to offset the fist penalty. The storm shield guys soak wounds for the fists, and the fist guys can threaten anything. The unit is a little over 130.

Lightning claws are kind of attractive, but ultimately they constrain you to targets with low toughness, low saves, single wounds. A powerfist might get fewer attacks, but with higher strength and AP and multiple wounds, more of those attacks get converted to damage on multi-wound models. And a fist is a bit cheaper than a pair of claws. Thunderhammers are overpriced on anything with fewer than 3 attacks.

I have heard people using them in a kind of «assassination unit» assaulting backfield units and characters, and they had success this way. Is it how you use them ? Obviously, I used them wrong, keeping with my old 7th habits.

Yep, suicide/assassination, to threaten whatever target they're best suited for. I should mention that I play Ravenguard, so the unit and the chaplain use strike from the shadows for a turn 1 assault if I get first turn, or to deploy behind LoS blocking terrain in midfield if I go second. Jump packs allow them to bypass all but the best screening bubblewrap to get at the target they want.

But even with another chapter, they could use jump pack deepstrike and terrain. More threatening and mobile than reivers or scouts. They don't necessarily need the chaplain escort to be threatening, but I usually need the extra HQ anyway and chaplains are cheaper than anything else other than lieutenants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The main question though is how much more damage do we need to do on multi-wound models? Most of our range weapons we end up using already take care of this issue.

As a matter of personal preference, I'm not a huge fan of static/shooty armies because I get bored when my guys stand still and roll dice. So I usually have a minimal anvil in my hammer/anvil armies, and sometimes I play all mobile/flying armies with no firebase at all. So as an alternative way to play, with few or no lascannons in the backfield, I need more high strength, multiwound weapons.

Also it feels from experience like this vanguard unit typically takes on things that a lascannon or other ranged weapon would have trouble with--flyers and other things with a to-hit penalty for ranged weapons, things that are out of LoS, and characters. They did pretty well against the all character battlesuit and stealth suit Tau army.

Also also it's a pretty standard tactic for these guys to swarm and surround a non-flying vehicle with their first charge, use the trapped vehicle to make themselves immune to shooting during the opponent's turn, then kill it in the opponent's turn and move away and assault something deeper in. It might be hard to time that kind of thing out with lightning claws and the targets that are appropriate to lightning claws.

Anyone know how UM/SM faired at LVO? I haven't seen much of GMan anymore, has he fallen out of favor?

Yeah I'm curious to know what Space Marines players were fielding at the tournament.

There were 3 gman lists in the top 100 as far as I could tell.

I think all three had gman, fire raptor and tiggarius (I think one list that was all they had).

Competitive vanilla marines are in a tough spot. Space wolves, dark angels and blood angels all performed much better than vanilla marines. Most of the soup lists used sisters so there weren't even a lot of IG/SM lists.

I think CA point changes were the straw that broke the camels back. I think there was one ravenguard list that used primaris and the blood angels list that did well used intercessors but with dark reaper spam eating marines for breakfast the marine lists that did good were the ones that didn't play dark reapers (at least from what I could tell)

Im running Salamanders, Venerable las dread and a regular multi melta dread in most of my lists these days (the ironclad sadly doesnt do very well without transport)

is a techmarine worth it?

I feel as though he heals too little and they attract all kinds of anti tank fire despite my lists being very vehicle heavy

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
Im running Salamanders, Venerable las dread and a regular multi melta dread in most of my lists these days (the ironclad sadly doesnt do very well without transport)

is a techmarine worth it?

I feel as though he heals too little and they attract all kinds of anti tank fire despite my lists being very vehicle heavy

Well you generally wont need the rerolls off a captain or other character since you have it built into your CT

a Tech marine can be cheaper (?) and being able to heal is always convenient though it wont stop some one from focus firing at them.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

I think Smurfs are the best since basically every unit has the keyword Fly. This edition shooting is king so it's a really big deal. Smurfs also have access to the most special characters and a lot of them are really good too. SM armies need counter assault units more than those that go out there to punch things.

Primark what space marines need is one of three things.

1) A good CC unit
2) A stratagem to make one of our mediocre units good in CC
3) Buffs for our mediocre CC units

2 attacks does not make an elite close combat unit good at killing anything. Especially when their powerful weapons swing at -1.

I am using Custodes now as a smaller detachment for cc and it is working out quite well. This pretty much takes care of (1) - (3).

Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them.

Haha you never fail to really crack me up.

Martel732 wrote:
Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them.

They make a fairly good supplement to an army, but fair poorly alone

Yeah exactly.

What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

You don't even know do you?

What units are you taking Primark? I was thinking either terminator shield captain + deep strike some regular custodes troops, or taking a jetbike shield captain and a unit of 3-5 bikes, would have to take a min 3 unit of custodes as well though so that might be too pricey. It defeats the purpose if my list has more custode than space marine.

I am curious to see if Imperial Fist see more play once FW drops the Rogal Dorn model. Their Chapter Tactics suck IMO so it will be a sacrifice.

 Dynas wrote:
I am curious to see if Imperial Fist see more play once FW drops the Rogal Dorn model. Their Chapter Tactics suck IMO so it will be a sacrifice.

I highly doubt it considering dorn is for 30k not 40k 8th

As for the CT... eh i think its fine. not over or under powered. except the building thing. feth that part.

 ultimentra wrote:
What units are you taking Primark? I was thinking either terminator shield captain + deep strike some regular custodes troops, or taking a jetbike shield captain and a unit of 3-5 bikes, would have to take a min 3 unit of custodes as well though so that might be too pricey. It defeats the purpose if my list has more custode than space marine.

Shield Captain in terminator armor

3x Allarus

3x Warden

Vexilla

Vanguard Detachment.

 Desubot wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
I am curious to see if Imperial Fist see more play once FW drops the Rogal Dorn model. Their Chapter Tactics suck IMO so it will be a sacrifice.

I highly doubt it considering dorn is for 30k not 40k 8th

As for the CT... eh i think its fine. not over or under powered. except the building thing. feth that part.

I can confirm that the imperial/crimson fist stratagem is basically fine. Eldar rangers are a thing right now and they don't like to be shot with bolt rifles that ignore cover. Dakka inceptors are great for clearing units of devastators and dark reapers out of cover - unless there's a farseer near them.

Our bolter drill stratagem is rubbish though, I must admit. You could conceivably justify using it on inceptors or aggressors but it still wouldn't be great.

I'll be getting Dorn for sure. My 30k imperial fists have waited so, so long for him. I can't see myself actually playing 30k at the moment - 8th is so much better - but he's a must have.

Martel732 wrote:
What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

I'm toying with the idea of taking the 5++ vexilla to hang alongside a gunline of devastators, supplemented with an apothecary, captain, lieutenant, and potentially an ancient with the relic standard. It's a lot of points of course, but it seems like it would be a huge pain to focus-fire down the good guns. Given that I play Raven Guard, that's a -1 to hit, a 5++, 3+ chance to fire again if they die, and a 4+ chance to bring one model back each turn. Probably fit the vexilla in a patrol detachment with a unit of Guardians and a shield-captain, which will be used to camp an objective. I'm not really sure how competitive it would be, but it seems like a fun idea I'd like to try.

What do you all think?

I like it a lot. It sounds really nasty.

 Primark G wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
What units are you taking Primark? I was thinking either terminator shield captain + deep strike some regular custodes troops, or taking a jetbike shield captain and a unit of 3-5 bikes, would have to take a min 3 unit of custodes as well though so that might be too pricey. It defeats the purpose if my list has more custode than space marine.

Shield Captain in terminator armor

3x Allarus

3x Warden

Vexilla

Vanguard Detachment.

Interesting. Which banner are you taking on the Vexilla? +1 attack or Deep strike?

 Porphyrius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

I'm toying with the idea of taking the 5++ vexilla to hang alongside a gunline of devastators, supplemented with an apothecary, captain, lieutenant, and potentially an ancient with the relic standard. It's a lot of points of course, but it seems like it would be a huge pain to focus-fire down the good guns. Given that I play Raven Guard, that's a -1 to hit, a 5++, 3+ chance to fire again if they die, and a 4+ chance to bring one model back each turn. Probably fit the vexilla in a patrol detachment with a unit of Guardians and a shield-captain, which will be used to camp an objective. I'm not really sure how competitive it would be, but it seems like a fun idea I'd like to try.

What do you all think?

I don't think the 5++ brings a lot to the Marines, unless it is something AP-3 ignore cover. Otherwise, putting your Devastators in backline ruins already give them a 2+ save (4+ Sv VS AP-2 or 5+ VS AP-3, which are majority of "anti Marine" weaponary have), that is going to make that 5++ Vexilla a waste of points.

 ultimentra wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
What units are you taking Primark? I was thinking either terminator shield captain + deep strike some regular custodes troops, or taking a jetbike shield captain and a unit of 3-5 bikes, would have to take a min 3 unit of custodes as well though so that might be too pricey. It defeats the purpose if my list has more custode than space marine.

Shield Captain in terminator armor

3x Allarus

3x Warden

Vexilla

Vanguard Detachment.

Interesting. Which banner are you taking on the Vexilla? +1 attack or Deep strike?

I bring the 5++ banner because I am also using SM... it works really good with Primaris Marines.

 Porphyrius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

I'm toying with the idea of taking the 5++ vexilla to hang alongside a gunline of devastators, supplemented with an apothecary, captain, lieutenant, and potentially an ancient with the relic standard. It's a lot of points of course, but it seems like it would be a huge pain to focus-fire down the good guns. Given that I play Raven Guard, that's a -1 to hit, a 5++, 3+ chance to fire again if they die, and a 4+ chance to bring one model back each turn. Probably fit the vexilla in a patrol detachment with a unit of Guardians and a shield-captain, which will be used to camp an objective. I'm not really sure how competitive it would be, but it seems like a fun idea I'd like to try.

What do you all think?

My list has two units of devs with lascannons and lascannons. Two units of 5 hellblasters, a captain a lieutenant an apothecary and an ancient in a gunline as the anvil. Work wonders and it is raven guard. The rest of the list is bubblewrap and a shrike vv bomb. No tanks or dreads on purpose as to render the opponent's AT overpriced.

What I mean is that I love the idea of having a 5++ but I would struggle to find the points for it.

I love it.

Here's the question though: Should marines have to ally in Custodes just to get a decent CC unit?

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

I'm toying with the idea of taking the 5++ vexilla to hang alongside a gunline of devastators, supplemented with an apothecary, captain, lieutenant, and potentially an ancient with the relic standard. It's a lot of points of course, but it seems like it would be a huge pain to focus-fire down the good guns. Given that I play Raven Guard, that's a -1 to hit, a 5++, 3+ chance to fire again if they die, and a 4+ chance to bring one model back each turn. Probably fit the vexilla in a patrol detachment with a unit of Guardians and a shield-captain, which will be used to camp an objective. I'm not really sure how competitive it would be, but it seems like a fun idea I'd like to try.

What do you all think?

I don't think the 5++ brings a lot to the Marines, unless it is something AP-3 ignore cover. Otherwise, putting your Devastators in backline ruins already give them a 2+ save (4+ Sv VS AP-2 or 5+ VS AP-3, which are majority of "anti Marine" weaponary have), that is going to make that 5++ Vexilla a waste of points.

This. Marines in cover already get a 5+ save against lascannons, and better against everything else. A 5++ bubble does very, very little for us. It would be far better to spend the points on more guys with guns, to shoot the enemy dead first.

That's not to say that Custodians in general are bad. They just have no place standing at the back. Sit them on jetbikes and have them poke at stuff with lances.

Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

 Primark G wrote:
You don't even know do you?

What sort of demented reply is that? Of course he doesn't know, that's why he asked. I know you and Martel don't see eye to eye but come on.

A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

RogueApiary wrote:
Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

I've never used the Laser Destroyer but it seems okay at least. I've never actually run the math on it though so we ought to prompt someone to do that. I'm at work so I can't!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
You don't even know do you?

What sort of demented reply is that? Of course he doesn't know, that's why he asked. I know you and Martel don't see eye to eye but come on.

This is the guy that thinks Tactical Marines are good. You expect any good advice coming out of someone with that thought process?

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Well one thing I would say is that it seems unlikely that an entire gunline of about 4-5 units within a 9" radius (range of the vexilla) could fit in cover, which was part of my thinking. Taking the vexilla would allow me to cluster those units and keep them all in range of buffs from the lieutenant and captain, and the good guns within 6" of the ancient. I was thinking that this would allow me to not have to worry about making a choice between good cover and potentially being outside the range of my characters. I completely agree that it wouldn't be worth it to protect one or two units of marines, but if I could fit the majority of my firebase in range...

This is all some good food for thought though, I appreciate the comments.

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Because 5++ is much better on cheap models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've looked carefully at custodes and i think they will make ba lists worse, not better. BA need more efficient allies, not less.

So my son is working on his Iron Hands army after painting up Battle for Vedros and Dark Imperium. Here’s what he has painted so far:

Captain in Gravis
Captain with bolter and relic blade
2 Primaris LTs
Primaris Apothecary
Primaris Ancient
Repulsed
2 Intercessor Squads
1 5-man Tactical Squad
Dreadnought with Multimelta
Razorback with TLHB or TLLC
Boltstorm Aggressors
Hellblasters

Unpainted:
Bolter Inceptors

The current plan is to put the Gravis Captain, Aggressors, LT, and Apothecary in the Repulsor and drive it into the enemy. The other captain, LT, and ancient stay in the back with the Hellblasters and other heavy weapons. The Intecessors and Tac Squad bubble-wrap as best they can.

Where should he go next? We think he needs more anti-tank firing, so either devestators or centurion devestators. I don’t play Space Marines, so my experience is pretty limited on how to expand up to 2000 points.

Iron Hand venerable dreads are tough nuts to crack (2x 6+++s if my understanding is correct). 2+ bs with lascannon+auto cannon (index version) is good for around 170 points or you could run a couple dev squads (2 naked, sarge w/ storm bolter, 2 lascannons or a las and a ML to use ML strat) as anti-tank.

You need something to take the focus off of your repulsor or something to take advantage of your enemy focusing on that one (unless your boy plays on boards with a spot to hide it out of LOS)

The multimelta on the dread probably isn't the best bet. Does he have a las-cannon arm for it? I guess you could run it up the board with the repulsor (would probably work better if there were 2 of them). With a LC it could kick it back with the hellblasters and use the re-roll strat (wisdom of the ancient, re-roll 1s w/in 6" for 1 cp) allowing that captain to be replaced and provide some counter charge ability if anything gets too close (or you could replace the CCW on it with ML or cannon and go full dakka)

I'm a fan of the dakka ceptors. They may not be the most efficient unit but they lend themselves to fun gameplay.

Please don't buy centurions, please. Unless someone is giving them to you or your boy loves the sculps they are real life expensive and on the table terrible (at least IMHO).

Martel732 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Because 5++ is much better on cheap models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've looked carefully at custodes and i think they will make ba lists worse, not better. BA need more efficient allies, not less.

this isn't the blood angel thread. Blood angels get gak normal space marines don't. What custodes do or do not add to blood angels isn't helpful for not playing blood angels. And considering the best blood angel lists tend to rely on blood angel specific units, it's not a helpful thought process to have with space marines.

 Porphyrius wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Well one thing I would say is that it seems unlikely that an entire gunline of about 4-5 units within a 9" radius (range of the vexilla) could fit in cover, which was part of my thinking. Taking the vexilla would allow me to cluster those units and keep them all in range of buffs from the lieutenant and captain, and the good guns within 6" of the ancient. I was thinking that this would allow me to not have to worry about making a choice between good cover and potentially being outside the range of my characters. I completely agree that it wouldn't be worth it to protect one or two units of marines, but if I could fit the majority of my firebase in range...

This is all some good food for thought though, I appreciate the comments.

Without the vexilla, there's no need to keep your guys within 9" of each other, so they can find cover elsewhere.

I've always found that the best approach with gunline armies is to spend the absolute maximum possible amount of points on guns. I find that it's almost never worth spending points on protection for guns, especially against shooting, when instead you could just buy more guns.

There are lots of reasons for this. One is that if you shoot the enemy dead they stop shooting at you. They also stop trying to beat you over the head with axes and things – and bear in mind that a vexilla is almost completely useless against assault armies. If the enemy do shoot you, at least you get to die in the knowledge that your friends have big guns and will shoot them back – unless your friend has brought a big shiny stick to the war instead of a gun.

So in this example you could buy a vexilla guy to occasionally protect your devastators and hellblasters, or you could buy a whole new squad of guys. He costs as much as 3 or 4 aggressors or hellblasters but he doesn’t do anything to the enemy.

Finally, a 5++ isn’t actually much good. The only time it helps is if your guy gets hit by something with sufficient AP to reduce his save to a 6 or 7+, and then you roll a 5 or 6 on your invulnerable. The rest of the time it’s either not needed or is no help anyway. It’s really not that common for this situation to come up.

Guns win games.

Mandragola wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Well one thing I would say is that it seems unlikely that an entire gunline of about 4-5 units within a 9" radius (range of the vexilla) could fit in cover, which was part of my thinking. Taking the vexilla would allow me to cluster those units and keep them all in range of buffs from the lieutenant and captain, and the good guns within 6" of the ancient. I was thinking that this would allow me to not have to worry about making a choice between good cover and potentially being outside the range of my characters. I completely agree that it wouldn't be worth it to protect one or two units of marines, but if I could fit the majority of my firebase in range...

This is all some good food for thought though, I appreciate the comments.

Without the vexilla, there's no need to keep your guys within 9" of each other, so they can find cover elsewhere.

I've always found that the best approach with gunline armies is to spend the absolute maximum possible amount of points on guns. I find that it's almost never worth spending points on protection for guns, especially against shooting, when instead you could just buy more guns.

There are lots of reasons for this. One is that if you shoot the enemy dead they stop shooting at you. They also stop trying to beat you over the head with axes and things – and bear in mind that a vexilla is almost completely useless against assault armies. If the enemy do shoot you, at least you get to die in the knowledge that your friends have big guns and will shoot them back – unless your friend has brought a big shiny stick to the war instead of a gun.

So in this example you could buy a vexilla guy to occasionally protect your devastators and hellblasters, or you could buy a whole new squad of guys. He costs as much as 3 or 4 aggressors or hellblasters but he doesn’t do anything to the enemy.

Finally, a 5++ isn’t actually much good. The only time it helps is if your guy gets hit by something with sufficient AP to reduce his save to a 6 or 7+, and then you roll a 5 or 6 on your invulnerable. The rest of the time it’s either not needed or is no help anyway. It’s really not that common for this situation to come up.

Guns win games.

You also need scouts and you really want screens (eg, imp guard).

stratigo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Because 5++ is much better on cheap models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've looked carefully at custodes and i think they will make ba lists worse, not better. BA need more efficient allies, not less.

this isn't the blood angel thread. Blood angels get gak normal space marines don't. What custodes do or do not add to blood angels isn't helpful for not playing blood angels. And considering the best blood angel lists tend to rely on blood angel specific units, it's not a helpful thought process to have with space marines.

I think a lot of the same issues can be extended to regular marines.

If you use the 5++ vexilla remember units must be wholly within the bubble and there is a strat you can burn for 1 CP that adds 6" to its radius.

Mandragola wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
A vexilla does wonders for twin repulsors full of aggressors though.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my dear friends, there is a plethroa of shooting armies that have numerous ways to ignore cover on nasty guns with high ap......

How is it not painfully apparent that for an elite army, having a redundancy in a 5++ is incredibly beneficial, especially when its easy to soup in the imperium, and each loss hurts way more than a horde army with one.

Vexilla works on Infantry only.

As I've mentioned, it needs to be both AP-3 AND cover ignoring shots, to make 5++ better than normal saves for marines. To my knowledge there is very few such weapons atm. And it is likely come from the buff of psychic powers. Of course, I might be wrong, if so, please correct me with examples..

Well one thing I would say is that it seems unlikely that an entire gunline of about 4-5 units within a 9" radius (range of the vexilla) could fit in cover, which was part of my thinking. Taking the vexilla would allow me to cluster those units and keep them all in range of buffs from the lieutenant and captain, and the good guns within 6" of the ancient. I was thinking that this would allow me to not have to worry about making a choice between good cover and potentially being outside the range of my characters. I completely agree that it wouldn't be worth it to protect one or two units of marines, but if I could fit the majority of my firebase in range...

This is all some good food for thought though, I appreciate the comments.

Without the vexilla, there's no need to keep your guys within 9" of each other, so they can find cover elsewhere.

I've always found that the best approach with gunline armies is to spend the absolute maximum possible amount of points on guns. I find that it's almost never worth spending points on protection for guns, especially against shooting, when instead you could just buy more guns.

There are lots of reasons for this. One is that if you shoot the enemy dead they stop shooting at you. They also stop trying to beat you over the head with axes and things – and bear in mind that a vexilla is almost completely useless against assault armies. If the enemy do shoot you, at least you get to die in the knowledge that your friends have big guns and will shoot them back – unless your friend has brought a big shiny stick to the war instead of a gun.

So in this example you could buy a vexilla guy to occasionally protect your devastators and hellblasters, or you could buy a whole new squad of guys. He costs as much as 3 or 4 aggressors or hellblasters but he doesn’t do anything to the enemy.

Finally, a 5++ isn’t actually much good. The only time it helps is if your guy gets hit by something with sufficient AP to reduce his save to a 6 or 7+, and then you roll a 5 or 6 on your invulnerable. The rest of the time it’s either not needed or is no help anyway. It’s really not that common for this situation to come up.

Guns win games.

Sorry, I misspoke: I meant keeping everything necessary within the 6" range of the ancient (since it's models not units), the buff range of the captain and lieutenant, and potentially the apothecary. It seems to me that it could be tricky getting enough units in cover to still take advantage of the ancient and other characters, but I definitely see your point regarding just buying more guns rather than trying to protect the ones you have better. The lists I'm thinking about have a couple contemptors in them as well to help deal with assaulting units, but you're right that the vexilla doesn't do much to save the gunline from an assault. The vexilla probably has some uses in a list like this, but it's not the be-all end-all.

Marines are more than codex: devastators in cover.....lol.

Gman, aggressors and assault plasma hellblasters, while potent, sorely lack the inv for the marines. Played multiple games tonight where i thought, god damn that vexillia would be handy....

I guess they aren't static devastators in cover though so what would I know..

Continuing to decry a very powerful option because it doesn't buff devastators is embarassing and laughable. You are allowed to play marines without them... Shock horror.

Oh definitely, using it alongside devastators was just what I had been thinking about for my own list.

What sort of scenarios did you find yourself in that you wished you had the vexilla?

 Porphyrius wrote:
Oh definitely, using it alongside devastators was just what I had been thinking about for my own list.

What sort of scenarios did you find yourself in that you wished you had the vexilla?

I mean I'm figuring Aggressors would be an excellent candidate, but allying in Custodes is something I don't really want to do. Heaven forbid Marines function mildly on their own, right?

I'm not trying to say that it's a must-take or something, just an idea I had. I totally get not wanting to ally in other factions, in fact I don't really plan to use allies very often myself. Still, I like the look of the minis (and GK for that matter) so I'm trying to find combos that can work.

the five up invul save really doesn't give marines a massive benefit. It is a fair amount of points, and you'd have to fit it in a detachment. It's, to me, sort of a filler if you have points to spare when adding in a supreme command, or if you need cheapish filler for a vanguard.

So, again, I'm going to ask, what do these guys give marines/BA/DA/SW or power armor armies in general that they don't already have for cheaper?

Martel732 wrote:
So, again, I'm going to ask, what do these guys give marines/BA/DA/SW or power armor armies in general that they don't already have for cheaper?

Honestly? The bikes are amazing at killing anything t6 or lower, even hordes. There's a reason hurricane bolters are a great weapon.

RogueApiary wrote:
Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

Currently building up a venator and punisher (predators are gak)
Math hammer says a stationery vindicator laser destroyer is better but thats not including the risk of self wounding or price of a captain to counter that. But a venerator is way more efficient if you move, has a nice special rule for its main weapon and a longer ranger than the Vindicator 48 vrs 36. I think the vidicator model lookes good but the rules favour the sicaran.

Ice_can wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

Currently building up a venator and punisher (predators are gak)
Math hammer says a stationery vindicator laser destroyer is better but thats not including the risk of self wounding or price of a captain to counter that. But a venerator is way more efficient if you move, has a nice special rule for its main weapon and a longer ranger than the Vindicator 48 vrs 36. I think the vidicator model lookes good but the rules favour the sicaran.

Good point on the range. The jump from 36 to 48 is pretty huge I've noticed.

Now I just need to find a decent elites unit to unlock the Sicaran. Really wish Deathwatch wasn't arbitrarily cut off from so many codex units. Thinking maybe just a Primaris Apothecary and/or some Vanguard vets. The Vindicator at least doesn't require me to purchase from the even more limited HS options under DW, though even if it did, QHB Rapiers aren't the worst tax unit.

The other FW toy I was considering to patch up DW's awful AT options was a Xiphon, but at 240 points, they seem a little too fragile.

RogueApiary wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Anyone have any firsthand experience with the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer or the Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer? Looks like they both have amazing AT guns, and the Vindicator is as durable as a Russ Annihilator and only slightly more expensive.

Currently building up a venator and punisher (predators are gak)
Math hammer says a stationery vindicator laser destroyer is better but thats not including the risk of self wounding or price of a captain to counter that. But a venerator is way more efficient if you move, has a nice special rule for its main weapon and a longer ranger than the Vindicator 48 vrs 36. I think the vidicator model lookes good but the rules favour the sicaran.

Good point on the range. The jump from 36 to 48 is pretty huge I've noticed.

Now I just need to find a decent elites unit to unlock the Sicaran. Really wish Deathwatch wasn't arbitrarily cut off from so many codex units. Thinking maybe just a Primaris Apothecary and/or some Vanguard vets. The Vindicator at least doesn't require me to purchase from the even more limited HS options under DW, though even if it did, QHB Rapiers aren't the worst tax unit.

The other FW toy I was considering to patch up DW's awful AT options was a Xiphon, but at 240 points, they seem a little too fragile.

What IS the actual Mathhammer though on those units? If we assume I run a Chapter Master next to them, how are they running in terms of inflicting wounds on the types of vehicles we can expect?

I'd actually like to do this later if nobody else will. My laptop with Battlescribe is missing its charger though!

stratigo wrote:
the five up invul save really doesn't give marines a massive benefit. It is a fair amount of points, and you'd have to fit it in a detachment. It's, to me, sort of a filler if you have points to spare when adding in a supreme command, or if you need cheapish filler for a vanguard.

Wrong the 5++ is huge compared to no save whatsoever.

 Primark G wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the five up invul save really doesn't give marines a massive benefit. It is a fair amount of points, and you'd have to fit it in a detachment. It's, to me, sort of a filler if you have points to spare when adding in a supreme command, or if you need cheapish filler for a vanguard.

Wrong the 5++ is huge compared to no save whatsoever.

But for how many points and how often?

 Porphyrius wrote:
Oh definitely, using it alongside devastators was just what I had been thinking about for my own list.

What sort of scenarios did you find yourself in that you wished you had the vexilla?

Ive had incredible success (8w/1l in a hardcore competitive group) running 2x Dakka repulsors, tiggy, 8-10 aggressors (banner if 8), gman and an intercessor seargant as my patrol requirement at 1500 (most local tournies run this points level currently).

But for the rest of the year its going back to 2k, so im looking at a DS termi vexilia for when the aggressors get out. T5 2w isn't very survivable, especially when they type of guns that are pointed at them ignore their armour save or pull it to a 6+ and do multiple damage a shot anyway.

The list doesnt score too well at 1500 (unless you know how to place objectives properly) so I also am running lots of objective capping units at 2k.... the list is actually very mobile eventually, with the mobility of the additional units I can have scoring options progressively throughout the game, have good defence (main weaknesses are smite and gunlines, an evesor helps tiggy against psychic and tiggys -1 to hit on one tank, t9 on the other tank and the 5++ to the aggressors helps against the gunlines and then the tanks, aggressors and gman do the heavy lifting.

Have you met thousand sons post codex? as they have and alot of psychic phase pain.
If your relying on aura buffs it's even more deadly.

 Primark G wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the five up invul save really doesn't give marines a massive benefit. It is a fair amount of points, and you'd have to fit it in a detachment. It's, to me, sort of a filler if you have points to spare when adding in a supreme command, or if you need cheapish filler for a vanguard.

Wrong the 5++ is huge compared to no save whatsoever.

If the enemy is shooting a dark lance or melta gun at marines, well, either things are going very right or very wrong for you.

Note, the invul is only for infantry, so you can't protect the things that would REALLY benefit from a five up invul

It has helped my Hellblasters and Inceptors several times.

What do you guys think about the Land Raider Excelsior? I played it a couple of times tagged along a rhino primaris with my Salamanders, of course being the warlord with 6+++, +1 Wound and the cloak for +1 T. With T9 W17 S2+/5++/6+++ and techmarines after a some games people just ignore it for being unable to crack it. But with all extras (the most important being the multi melta) it costs 478 pts.

Here's my list with the Excelsior

1750 pts, Salamanders

Batallion
Land Raider Excelsior: Combiplasma, Hunter killer missile, Multi-melta, Storm bolter, Warlord: Iron Resolve, Relic: Mantle of the Salamander
Rhino Primaris
5 scouts, sergeant with storm bolter
5 scouts, sergeant with storm bolter
5 scouts, sergeant with storm bolter
Vanguard
Techmarine: Chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
Vanguard
Techmarine: Chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
Vanguard
Techmarine: Chainsword and storm bolter
Contemptor with Multi-melta
Contemptor with Multi-melta
Contemptor with Multi-melta

This have any sense? It worked for me.

Zorninsson wrote:
What do you guys think about the Land Raider Excelsior? I played it a couple of times tagged along a rhino primaris with my Salamanders, of course being the warlord with 6+++, +1 Wound and the cloak for +1 T. With T9 W17 S2+/5++/6+++ and techmarines after a some games people just ignore it for being unable to crack it. But with all extras (the most important being the multi melta) it costs 478 pts.

Here's my list with the Excelsior

1750 pts, Salamanders

Batallion
Land Raider Excelsior: Combiplasma, Hunter killer missile, Multi-melta, Storm bolter, Warlord: Iron Resolve, Relic: Mantle of the Salamander
Rhino Primaris
5 scouts, sergeant with storm bolter
5 scouts, sergeant with storm bolter
5 scouts, sergeant with storm bolter
Vanguard
Techmarine: Chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
Vanguard
Techmarine: Chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
2 Company veterans with chainsword and storm bolter
Vanguard
Techmarine: Chainsword and storm bolter
Contemptor with Multi-melta
Contemptor with Multi-melta
Contemptor with Multi-melta

This have any sense? It worked for me.

Ok I know I'm not a competitive player, but this list seems...strange ? Do the several 2 men squad work ? I would be quite interested in hearing about your list.

They really shouldn't have given the excelicor the charictor keyword it makes no sence

 Primark G wrote:
It has helped my Hellblasters and Inceptors several times.

I'm sure.

But instead of the Vexilla, why not just take 2 Company Ancients? I mean, if your guys are going to die, might as well get a 50% chance to shoot or fight with them one last time instead of a 33% chance of saving the wound?

More often than not my Marines are dying to small arms fire, and not AP-3 guns (besides some Plasma). But even than, my 5 man Plasma Tacs generally find their way into cover so they are getting a 5+ save regardless.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
But instead of the Vexilla, why not just take 2 Company Ancients? I mean, if your guys are going to die, might as well get a 50% chance to shoot or fight with them one last time instead of a 33% chance of saving the wound?

More often than not my Marines are dying to small arms fire, and not AP-3 guns (besides some Plasma). But even than, my 5 man Plasma Tacs generally find their way into cover so they are getting a 5+ save regardless.

Why not both

The veteran with assault bolters costs just 18 points and does 4 shots and 3/4 attacks with the same profile in close combat. To play with melta salamanders dreads they're nice, providing my a much needed anti infantry fire. But they're a bit slow to play, cause you must roll them separetely cause Salamanders reroll.

Veterans using this loadout costs same as intercessors, but can be delivered in transports and trade raw damage output for durability (one wound instead primaris two).

 Klowny wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
But instead of the Vexilla, why not just take 2 Company Ancients? I mean, if your guys are going to die, might as well get a 50% chance to shoot or fight with them one last time instead of a 33% chance of saving the wound?

More often than not my Marines are dying to small arms fire, and not AP-3 guns (besides some Plasma). But even than, my 5 man Plasma Tacs generally find their way into cover so they are getting a 5+ save regardless.

Why not both

Because of points.

Nobody is saying that the Vexilla does nothing. We're saying that points would be better spent on other stuff - stuff with guns that kills the enemy.

A 5++ might save you. Killing the other guy will definitely save you. Having another guy on your team to take the bullet for you will save you and keep you alive to shoot back.

Basically, an approach of taking as many guns and bodies as possible is rarely wrong.

Now that a Reiver Sergeant can take a Bolt Carbine instead of a Heavy Bolt Pistol, but keep his Combat Blade, is Bolt Carbine and Combat Blade a better option for him?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Now that a Reiver Sergeant can take a Bolt Carbine instead of a Heavy Bolt Pistol, but keep his Combat Blade, is Bolt Carbine and Combat Blade a better option for him?

Couldn't he always take that though?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Now that a Reiver Sergeant can take a Bolt Carbine instead of a Heavy Bolt Pistol, but keep his Combat Blade, is Bolt Carbine and Combat Blade a better option for him?

Couldn't he always take that though?

I can't remember. Maybe. Is it an okay option though?

I'm sure it makes no difference because Reivers are going to do the same thing. The only time it will ever make a any difference is if you're playing a very small game.

Do you get an extra attack for the combat blade? If yes then worth it.

You certainly want the blade. I think pistol and sword is probably best for the normal guys, though it’s not a huge issue either way. Sometimes -1ap is very valuable, so the pistol isn’t much worse than the carbine. Neither does all that much really.

I always run them with bolters when I take them. I like the range fire power.

Anybody done the math on the Redemptor weapons? thinking plasma but the dakka version could be a crazy amount of shots

The plasma weapon actually costs less points and has longer range. With the onslaught cannon and MOC you get 18 shots at 24 inch range (not including up to an 8" move). It really depends on what else is in your army.

Alright so I made a new list focusing slightly more on artillery. I used Huron (again) and I'll explain everything in detail of course. NOW for the list.

Brigade Detachment:
x1 Lugft Huron
x1 Librarian
. Force Staff, Bolt Pistol, no selection on powers yet
x1 Lieutenant
. Master Crafted Boltgun -> The Primarch's Wrath, Power Fist
x1 Damocles Command Rhino w/ Storm Bolter

x5 Scouts
. 4 Shotguns, Combi-Plasma + Combat Blade
x5 Scouts
. 4 Shotguns, Combi-Plasma + Combat Blade
x5 Scouts
. 4 Shotguns, Combi-Plasma + Combat Blade
x5 Intercessors
. 1 Aux Grenade Launcher
x5 Intercessors
. 1 Aux Grenade Launcher
x5 Intercessors
. 1 Aux Grenade Launcher

x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Twin Heavy Bolter

x4 Aggressors
x4 Aggressors
x1 Whirlwind Scorpius

x1 Rapier Carrier
. Quad Launcher
x1 Rapier Carrier
. Quad Laucher
x1 Rapier Carrier
. Quad Launcher
x1 Thunderfire Cannon

This comes out to a cool 1997 points. However, what's the game plan?
Obviously the strongest Chapter Tactic outside Ultraroboute is Raven Guard, so until Forge World says otherwise my "Astral Claws" will be benefiting from a cool -1 to be hit. Aggressors will be set up via Strike From The Shadows with the Scouts to help serve as their shields. Meanwhile the Intercessors and Tarantula Guns will be the primary screen for the artillery, with the Lt., Huron, and Librarian set up where they best give out the auras. Huron will use his Big Guns Never Tire, the Damocles will use its own Orbital Bombardment, and then I use the Orbital Bombardment Strategem itself. Unfortunately the Strategem itself is pretty lackluster but being used twice in the same turn + Huron can potentially make my opponent deploy the way I would want them to deploy: not as well!

However I think the list can be improved on. For one, I don't think the Librarian would be totally necessary as a whole, as I don't feel like he will benefit much in the end, so removing him gives room for MORE Tarantula Guns. I can also remove the Damocles if the Mortal Wounds from its bombardment aren't worth it for another Thunderfire. It's very much up in the air right now but I'm curious as well, to try and get some discussion started, how you all would do a Space Marine artillery list.

 Primark G wrote:
The plasma weapon actually costs less points and has longer range. With the onslaught cannon and MOC you get 18 shots at 24 inch range (not including up to an 8" move). It really depends on what else is in your army.

Plenty of dakka and plenty of AT , I run 2 dreads in every list as it is

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The plasma weapon actually costs less points and has longer range. With the onslaught cannon and MOC you get 18 shots at 24 inch range (not including up to an 8" move). It really depends on what else is in your army.

Plenty of dakka and plenty of AT , I run 2 dreads in every list as it is

I think the decision comes down to what chapter the dreadnought is from. For me, the plasma optionsjffers too much from moving - which the dread often wants to do, so I prefer the Gatling. That’s doubly true as my crimson fists ignore cover, making it a decent infantry killer.

I think salamanders and iron hands could do well with the plasma option. Iron hands have a stratagem to ignore the penalty for moving. Salamanders always have a reroll available - and it feels more valuable on a plasma shot than a Gatling round.

Ultramarines certainly want the Gatling gun I think, as disengaging adds yet another -1 to hit. They are probably the only chapter that could potentially make use of a heavy flamer, to get auto-hits after falling back. That said, I’m not sure how often a redemptor will fall back from combat, so this might be irrelevant.

A ravenguard gun line could potentially use a plasma redemptor that mostly stood still for counter-assault. It’s a way to get a decent gun on a model that’s hard to hit. I think they’d probably be better off with something else though - maybe a venerable dread with twin las, or one of the forgeworld mortis options.

I had 2 games today with my new ultramarines, bought a used army for 60$ and wanted to run it as was to see how it went and what worked / what didn't.

This was my list.

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 98pts]: Master-crafted boltgun, Relic blade

Chaplain [6 PL, 90pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Pack

Librarian [6 PL, 105pts]: 2) Might of Heroes, 6) Null Zone, Force axe, Plasma pistol

Lieutenants [4 PL, 60pts]
. . Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 96pts]
. . Scout Sergeant: Combat knife, Sniper rifle
. . Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. . 3x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 3x Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 179pts]
. . 7x Space Marine
. . Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 183pts]
. . 7x Space Marine
. . Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Chapter Ancient [4 PL, 76pts]: Power sword

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 118pts]: Jump Pack
. . Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. . Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. . Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. . Space Marine Veteran: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword
. . Veteran Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Relic blade

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 162pts]: Heavy plasma cannon
. . Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

+ Dedicated Transport +

Drop Pod [5 PL, 88pts]: Deathwind launcher

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon


So they were 1400 pt game's. First vs a chaos army, second vs a basic blood angels force.

I won't go into details on the games, but things I found out that I think people overlook.

Taking 10 man tactical squad, srg w/ combi plasma, 1 with plasma gun, and 1 with a heavy weapon then combat squading and putting the special and srg into the drop pod and deploying the other 5 men w/ heavy weapon as a back line objective holders / heavy weapon pot shot taker worked really well. I did it with both squads of tacticals, putting the plasma teams into the drop pod. It allowed me to drop them in at double tap range and gave me a forward pod that helped by becoming a targeting issue for my opponents. In my second game the team took out a dreadnought in one round of overcharging double tapping shooting (one of the plasma guns did explode, but it happens and they are just tacticals. Bolters helped finish it off). My opponent, the blood angels player ignored the pod after that because it's just a pod, until the end of the game when I had just the pod, the scouts, and all my Chrs left and they had 5 scouts, 3 heavy bolter devs, and 10 vets and be couldn't shoot at my Chrs because the pod was closer. It was great.

Also the vanguard vets were mearly ok. They only ever got into a single round of combat in the 2nd game before getting blown away by hellblasters but even then I think they need some storm shields to help protect against scary weapons and a full squad of 10 or something. Otherwise I think I will just take them as cheap assault marines and save the points. If they are just going to get shot at and die why spend a lot?

Overall I liked playing as ultramarines, first time in a long long time. I wonder though, if you were going to take the list to the next level with what I have what would you go with? I am liking a tank - light idea, mass infantry, but no terminators since they are so expensive for so little return. Maybe primaris? Also I am thinking of getting a calgar, I don't want Guilliman I don't think, but calgar always seemed like an interesting charecter that has been overshadowed by Guilliman in the game. Any thoughts?