It actually has quite a bit more fire power than a landraider.

Its shorter range and only a 3+ save vres a land radiers 2+, but you do have fly so swings and roundabouts.
But more fundamentally its 350 points with no invulnerable save.
It's not that it's a bad unit but your giving your opponent an obvious target for his anti tank firepower.
Razorbacks survive by being cheap enough to achieve target saturation.

The other thing that counts hard agaisnt hellblasters is the amount of negative to hit modifiers making overheating a real concern.

Also this is codex spacemarines tactics dark angles, wolfs bloodangles eg anyone with a snowflake codex gets different rules, stratageums etc so YMMV for reading across.

I'm interested in hearing what's your opinion on this matter.

I usually make reserves heavy lists. Assassins, Lias with some units, Inceptors, Captain w/ Jump pack and Thunder hammer, soon also a single Dreadknight (my girlfriend is playing GK) and other units.

Unfortunately some units need to stay on board. Usually it is 3 Dreadnoughts and Saint Celestine. If playing higher points I might also bring 2 3-man Inceptor squads to also start on board. I've read several times about bringing 5-man Devastator squads with 2 weapons only. That they are cheap and still pack a punch with Cherub and Signum.

So, what would you prefer to bring as sacrificial units (tactically very important drops that allow more units to come into reserves ) that actually do something themselves?

Saint Celestine
maybe 10-man Strike squad if bringing Dreadknight w/ Gate of Infinity

With:

a) 3 Dreadnoughts/Vendreads w/ twin Autocannon, twin Lascannon
Captain w/ Thunder hammer, Stormshield, Jump pack in reserves
Either Raven Guard for more tankiness or Salamanders for more damage. Actually this gives only 2 spaces for units in reserves. Might change Captain into a cheaper one and make him stay with Dreads, so this gives me 4 spaces instead of 2.

b) cheap Captain
cheap Lieutenant
3 5-man Devastator squads with Cherub and 2 Lascannons
Either RG or Salamanders for same reasons.

Both options are somewhat similar in points. Second one gives me 5 drops.

What do you think? Bringing IG doesn't count btw.

The Repulsor also has a field that reduces enemy charge range. Had one game it popped three RZB trying to charge it one turn.

 Primark G wrote:
I think the Repulsor is really good at what it does but yeah it is a lot of points unfortunately.

That's the cardinal sin of 8th.

 Primark G wrote:
The Repulsor also has a field that reduces enemy charge range. Had one game it popped three RZB trying to charge it one turn.

Charging a gunboat with fly rules with wounded razorbacks make it sound like you were playing a beginer.
That doesn't make a repulsor a good unit.
Manticor basis etc would eat a repulsor for breakfast and you can't retaliate untill turn 2 at best more likely turn 3 if the guard player has got lucky with terrain.

Repulsor has quite the arsenal of good weapons but you are still paying like 240ish points base (can't remember exactly) for the base unit. The base unit is worth like...130 points at most? Making the repulsor worth like 250 fully loaded...not the 340ish we pay now. Same is true of basic land raiders.

It really is a shame because it's a great fun unit and primaris marines really need to function. When stuff like this can get through chapter approved twice!??! I mean - GW has to be the worst run company in the entire world. How does it help them to make this unit suck on the field?

Ice_can wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The Repulsor also has a field that reduces enemy charge range. Had one game it popped three RZB trying to charge it one turn.

Charging a gunboat with fly rules with wounded razorbacks make it sound like you were playing a beginer.
That doesn't make a repulsor a good unit.
Manticor basis etc would eat a repulsor for breakfast and you can't retaliate untill turn 2 at best more likely turn 3 if the guard player has got lucky with terrain.

He had a SW dreadnaught with two wounds left about 8-9" away and he was trying to lock down the Repulsor before sending it in to wreck it. The field ended up forcing the dread to fail.

Mandragola wrote:
Genuine question to all the people saying repulsors are no good: have you ever used them?

I’ve used them many times, to great effect. I’d like to know what the difference is between my experience and yours.

Hi Mandragola, yes I've used them, but I haven't been able to bring myself to buy a second, so my experience is limited in that way. My main problem with it is that it takes about 12 BS3+ lascannon shots to bring down, and most armies can dish that equivalent in a round. It draws that fire because a) it's quite tasty at shooting b) it's only got a 3+ save c) it's a big chunk of my list and d) it then spills its tasty innards, to be mopped upon by lighter fire and 1s from the destruction of the Repulsor.

I really don't think the tank needs much to make it good. A 2+ might be enough, or a 5++. Heck, just give it chapter tactics, so it can be buffed by IH/RG. But right now it does cost about 320pts minimum to run with a nice loadout, which is in the landraider price bracket without the range or the 2+.

Mandragola wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
Hellblasters aren't good because repulsors aren't good, as far as I can see. As soon as Primaris get a decent transport option, hellblasters will be a great unit.

Genuine question to all the people saying repulsors are no good: have you ever used them?

I’ve used them many times, to great effect. I’d like to know what the difference is between my experience and yours.

Any army that can't reliably kill a repulsor in one turn simply deserves to lose.

So usually you get one turn to see it shine.

stratigo wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
Hellblasters aren't good because repulsors aren't good, as far as I can see. As soon as Primaris get a decent transport option, hellblasters will be a great unit.

Genuine question to all the people saying repulsors are no good: have you ever used them?

I’ve used them many times, to great effect. I’d like to know what the difference is between my experience and yours.

Any army that can't reliably kill a repulsor in one turn simply deserves to lose.

So usually you get one turn to see it shine.

Maybe that would just be bad match up, I tends to believe if Guilliman is nearby, Repulsor would do decent against nidz Kraken Genestealer centric list, owing to that tons of dakkadakka and the repulsor field (-2 to charge rolls).

Of course, If Nidz is taking a Swarmlord, move, run then DS those Genestealers 6" in front of the lord to allow the 20 strong genestealers to move run 14" in the shooting phase, it is totally another story. This is especially true if Nidz also take Harpy / Hive Crone who can make a solid T1 charge to tie up the tank so GS won't be overwatched at. However, many Nidz players had screamed "Swarmlord is garbage, too overcosted, opponents can easily shoot it dead T1... etc. etc." which I don't know if it is a fair claim.... So it is a shame that I cannot justify if this combo is very common or not, though it is a potential threat to be all honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, If I know there maybe shooty armies, I take Tigirius and a Techmarine to go with this tanks. For that -1 to be hit and the potential repair. It will potentially buff this thing to T9 (melta and missile and battle cannon gonna wound it on 5s) -2 to be hit and regain D3W a turn. However, I admit it is bloody expensive, it is over 820pts already with the 10 Hellblasters inside. Plus Guilliman, 1200+ pts which would be over 60% of an army......

I once tried this combo against Eldar a couple months ago. When this goes off, the Eldar player just "forget about it" and ignore the tank and its content then shoot my "everything else" into oblivion. Yeah, that tank and Hellblasters survived the Eldar alpha strike, but all is left still cannot handle an Eldar army of around 1800pts units left on the board. So I still lost the game by T3....

Hah, that game sounds about right Neophyte! Of course it doesn't help that Wave Serpents really rub your nose in it... There's an example of what a good transport is. It's much tougher than the Repulsor (-1 damage, -1 hit for 1CP); can fall back and shoot just the same; is much faster; can take 2 brightlances, the equivalent to the Repulsor's best weapon; and with the equivalent of PotMS tacked on, comes in at 157pts, less than half the price.

Give Hellblasters access to a wave-serpent equivalent, and they'd be transformed as a unit.

I like how the repulsor model looks, but I cannot say the same about its performance.
It is indeed a valuable transport for hellblasters as aforementioned in this thread, but then we are looking at a firepower magnet costing over 300 points.
The repulsor does bring decent amount of firepower and mobility, but it rarely survives the first turn in my experience.
Typical Imperium armies I face bring at least 7~8 lascannon equivalents.
Xenos bring even more firepower, with drukhari packing more than 15 dark lances and asuryani sporting multiple fire prisms/crimson hunters/hemlocks.
And now we are looking at riptides firing 6 lascannon shots each, while vaunting 3+ invulnerable save at the same time.

Even in relatively casual meta, I think there really is no place for single model units costing more than 200pts, including the repulsor.
A few exceptions exist though, such as hemlock wraithfighters, Daemon Primarchs, Roboute Guilliman.

The serpent is a lot less points but it’s not a good comparison due to the amount of dakka the Repulsor can chuck. If there was a Primaris equivalent that would be great but I don’t see it happening. Something along the lines of a Rhino (low points) would be great. If you cast MoH on the Repulsor that makes it that much tougher - lascannons wounding on 4+... Tiggy can also make it -1 to hit.

Both of which require you to have had a trun and one requires a successful cast of a power. Tiggy isn't a bad addition to an ultramarine army but he's one named charictor who is fairly squishy.

Again the problem isn't so much that the repulser is bad, it more that your giving meta players exactlly what their lists want as a target. One big high point cost model with no invulnerable save.

Few tanks have an invulnerable save.

 Primark G wrote:
Few tanks have an invulnerable save.

Those Death Guard specific ones? I think some of them have Daemon keywords.

Back to the topic, I think the effectiveness of a Repulsors depends on your luck of match ups. Properly supported, it is gonna give horde charging list a hard time, especially those rely on DS and charge without special rules like move again in shooting / psychic phase or 3D6 charge range etc (which you might notice that specturm is very limited, just Orks maybe, and Nidz Genestealer spam WITHOUT a Swarmlord, and of course, the vanilla Space Marines themselves and Greyknights). Against the army like Dark Eldar, Eldar, IG, and even Nidz, if the opponent wants, they can bring enough long range firepower and / or smite spam to kaboom a Repulsor in one round, and those units can be just a tiny fraction of their army. Under such situation, it is better to put all those buff on it to allow it survive at least one turn and get its job done.

Anyhow, yes the Repulsor Tank is overcosted, if the hull is somewhere around 180pts instead of 210pts, it'd be much better. Guns are good and very well priced.

 Primark G wrote:
Few tanks have an invulnerable save.

You missed the point, most competitive/ optimised lists are designed to be able to deal with morti or magnus in a single turn.
A repulsor full of hellblasters is a single target which if killed will yield the same amount of points killed. The difference is morti, magnus and guilliman are all rocking invulns so these lists have some saves built into their damage model that the repulsor doesn't have.

Work back from the models stats.
14 wounds is 4 lascannon wounds on avarage with a 4+ invuln thats 8 lacannons wounding on 3+ gives you 12 lascannons, hitting on 3's is 16 lascannons.
16 wounds on a repulsor 5 lascannons, 6+ save is 6 lascannons wounding on 3's is nine lascannons hitting on 3's is 12 lascannons.

This is ignoring buffs etc but hopefully explains my point that if your going to put an model over 300 points on the board (not including the hellblasters inside) it needs to be able to take the heat.

Simply put a repulsor on its own is too obvious a target, you would be relying on going first and hoping your opponent doesn't have a nul deployment list

My point was that it’s not common to see vehicles with an invulnerable save - point reduction and/or 2+ save wouid be a better fix.

Although some sort of shield system, represented with an invul save would be fitting the fluff of the ruplsor as the "high tech wundertank"

Do that and you would push a repulsor to close to 500 points, it would render primaris to walking permanently.

No it wouldn't. Repulsor is 100 pts overcosted atm.

Martel732 wrote:
No it wouldn't. Repulsor is 100 pts overcosted atm.

I'd rather they knock 100 points off the cost then add a buncha new stuff myself.

They aren’t going to reduce it by 100 points.

 Primark G wrote:
They aren’t going to reduce it by 100 points.

they also aren't going to stack a ton of rules on stuff, in fact it's more common for GW to cut the points on something then to give it a ton of new rules in a FAQ

 Primark G wrote:
They aren’t going to reduce it by 100 points.

Then I'm probably never going to own one or use one. Because its lascannon fodder.

You can squeeze a Repulsor down to 287 points by removing all its best guns. A -40pt price reduction would make it a viable transport option, at around 250pts. That's still expensive, but would be justifiable I think, considering its decent armament and stats.

That's an insane price compared to other tanks in the game. I'd honestly have to think about 187 stripped down. 287 is out of the question.

Is Sergant Chronus any good, and if so, which vwhicle and loadout is best for him?

Need a 4th HQ for a primarly space marine army with 2 batallions, and since he hides in his vehicle it fits the primaris theme better.

So far im using a primaris captain and librarian in the first batallion and a primaris lieutenant in the second

I’d put him in a landraider.

 ThePie wrote:
Is Sergant Chronus any good, and if so, which vwhicle and loadout is best for him?

Need a 4th HQ for a primarly space marine army with 2 batallions, and since he hides in his vehicle it fits the primaris theme better.

So far im using a primaris captain and librarian in the first batallion and a primaris lieutenant in the second

Simply put if your taking a tank anyway he is the cheapest HQ choice available.
A predator is the obvious choice, while a land radier is a hard nut to crack its too many points if your not using it as a transport. As to load out, that depends on how many points you have and what you face. Personally I am a fan of a mixed loadout either twinlas and heavy bolters or autcannon and lascannons.

The Predator can easily be taken out in one turn. The landraider is much more survivable.

Its also much easier to hide a predator out of LOS than a landraider.
Their isn't much in the game that can't be one turn killed in eighth edition. Assuming anything will make it out of turn one requires having 2 or more of them in your list, or the ability to deepstrike.

Land Raiders are also insanely overcosted.

I don’t think there is a bad tank for Chonos these days. I’d not go out of my way to include a tank I wasn’t planning on, just for him to ride in. Just stick him on top of one that fits your needs.

It used to be that putting him in a tank with a lot of TL’d guns was a bit of a waste, as the re-roll to hit made his BS a little less relevant. Less of an issue now. I guess Hunters and LRRs would get a little less out of him. The fact that he always hits on a 2+ regardless of wounds taken helps pretty much everything but the Redeemer with it’s auto-hit flamestorms.

Healing a wound each turn would work better in tougher tanks, as their wounds are going to be worth “more” and they are more likely to survive to be healed. But that’s relatively minor.

One of the Sicarans or a Whirlwind variant would be best for him. Could you imagine him in a blasted Scorpius?

He's not allowed to comand a sicaran as codex only no forgeworld. I know kind of annoying. If this has bern FAQ'd I'd love that but I dont think it has. The scorpious is still a whirlwond so should be legal but depends as it's mixing and matching books.

No matter what tanks he is commanding, once any enemy chaff charge and touched the hull, the whole overcosted expensive thing is As Good As DEAD.

Not getting the Chapter Tactic for tanks hurts...

So, eventually I bought some scout bikers (they had been out of stock for months !). After some bad experiences, I now consider Space Marines to be almost purely defensive, and their assault units to be subpar at best, totally unplayable at worse.

I made a new "castle" list, I didn't want to play castle when 8th dropped but I have no other choice with SM.


Chapter Tactics: Ultramarines
Chapter master with shield eternal, terminator armour and thunder hammer
Lieutnant with master crafted boltgun and power axe

4 company veterans with chainswords and stormbolters

5 scouts with boltguns
5 scouts with shotguns/bolt pistols and combat knife
6 scouts 1 heavy bolter 5 sniper rifles

10 tactical combiplasma, plasma and heavy bolter
10 tactical combiplasma, plasma and heavy bolter

6 scout bikers with twin-linked bolters and shotguns

6 devastator marines with 4 missile-launchers

1 predator with predator autocannon, lascannon and hk
1 predator with predator autocannon, lascannon and hk

1 stormraven with lascannons, hurricane bolters, stormstrike missiles and heavy bolters

1 rhino with 2 stormbolters
1 rhino with 2 stormbolters

I think the list is pretty straightforward, let me know if you need any further information to comment it !

If you want to castle what's the point of Tactical Marines? They get less heavy weapons for the points.

Ice_can wrote:
He's not allowed to comand a sicaran as codex only no forgeworld. I know kind of annoying. If this has bern FAQ'd I'd love that but I dont think it has. The scorpious is still a whirlwond so should be legal but depends as it's mixing and matching books.

If only he could take the helm of a Repulsor. The thing about a landraider or Vindi is a Libby can buff it up to T9.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you want to castle what's the point of Tactical Marines? They get less heavy weapons for the points.

I need units to go and capture the objectives, and until this very momebt, I thought that with 3 heavy support choices I had filled all my choices, but... We are in 8th now ! I have 6 choices !
HoweverI want to keep at least a little fluff in my army, and tactical squad are the only ones who never disappointed me. They always do something good before dying.

 godardc wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you want to castle what's the point of Tactical Marines? They get less heavy weapons for the points.

I need units to go and capture the objectives, and until this very momebt, I thought that with 3 heavy support choices I had filled all my choices, but... We are in 8th now ! I have 6 choices !
HoweverI want to keep at least a little fluff in my army, and tactical squad are the only ones who never disappointed me. They always do something good before dying.

Then if you want to move forward buy more Scouts.

With Tau out, crons out and DE (or duthkari or whatever made up word they are using nowa days) is there any hope?

At first dark reapers made me shelve my marines and now I just look at all the cool stuff other armies are getting and can't wrap my head around why we are so terrible.

Is this just "the grass is always greener" syndrome or does anyone else feel like this? Hell even DA, BA and custodes are more interesting and more powerful than anything I can put together from our dex.

Should I just repaint all of my Templars to BA/DA (maybe save a couple of them to turn into SW when that dex comes out) or is there something I'm missing? Maybe there are more primarchs waiting out there to make us competitive but I just can't figure out what GW was thinking. Is it as simple as they have they sold enough marines and are pushing other army sales or is there some component of army construction that the community just hasn't figured out yet?

Looking at recent results either you are running guilliman and fire raptors or aren't going better than 4-2 at any competitive tournament. ITC format really hurts marines through secondaries and end of turn scoring that favors hordes and we just don't have enough killing/staying power for any other mission types I've seen.

Termies are terrible
Our tanks are made of paper and can't move/shoot
Tacs are over-costed
Hellblasters are out-shot by other good shooters, have no transport options and are too expensive
Aggressors only shine if they don't move
Inceptors need guilliman to be efficient compared to other armies deepstrike shooting (both bolt and plasma and DA does the plasma ones so much better)
LOL centurions
Sternguard actually shoot better with storm-bolters...
Vanguard vets don't have enough attacks/cost too much
Dreads negative to hit for heavy weapons really hurts against -1 to hit armies, t7 3+ is not tough in the current meta.
StormTalons got hurt by the AC nerf + are over costed (DA dark talons are so much better especially w/ a dark shroud)
Land raiders are like 100 points over-costed and there's nothing worth transporting in them
Helbrecht only giving +1 str to models w/in when a common blood angel chaplin give that to all UNITS w/in
Chappy grim only gives exploding 6's while sanguinor is over there giving +1 attacks
I could keep going but that's just the first couple shelves of my collection...

It isn't just you. The codex is super uninspired with poor internal balance, and we are stupidly reliant on Special Characters for anything (outside the Lt.)
Even CSM is better designed and that's got a host of a bunch of other issues.

Its not just a marine issue even choas marines are falling more and more out of the meta and they have cultists to take up the guardsmen meat shielding job in the troop slot.
Basically despite GW's promise of most balanced issue ever, power creep became way apparent when the AM and eldar codex's dropped. To be fair only alitoc has remained feeling super broken since newer codex's have dropped but marines are only viable with gimic builds now.

Pray to the Emperor and all the Primarchs, have fingers crossed to hope that:
1. the CA 2018 come out soon; and
2. the dream of having 10ppm for Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Devastator Marines, 9ppm Scout. 14ppm Sternguard and Vanguard. 55pts Droppod and Rhinos. Chapter Tactic apply on all marine units will all come true in the CA 2018. LOL, then we can make Space Marine strong again!!

bananathug wrote:
With Tau out, crons out and DE (or duthkari or whatever made up word they are using nowa days) is there any hope?

At first dark reapers made me shelve my marines and now I just look at all the cool stuff other armies are getting and can't wrap my head around why we are so terrible.

Is this just "the grass is always greener" syndrome or does anyone else feel like this? Hell even DA, BA and custodes are more interesting and more powerful than anything I can put together from our dex.

Should I just repaint all of my Templars to BA/DA (maybe save a couple of them to turn into SW when that dex comes out) or is there something I'm missing? Maybe there are more primarchs waiting out there to make us competitive but I just can't figure out what GW was thinking. Is it as simple as they have they sold enough marines and are pushing other army sales or is there some component of army construction that the community just hasn't figured out yet?
...

Thas one of the major problems with Marines - because of all the super special versions of them the generic ones have to be weaker or the super special ones are not.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Pray to the Emperor and all the Primarchs, have fingers crossed to hope that:
1. the CA 2018 come out soon; and
2. the dream of having 10ppm for Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Devastator Marines, 9ppm Scout. 14ppm Sternguard and Vanguard. 55pts Droppod and Rhinos. Chapter Tactic apply on all marine units will all come true in the CA 2018. LOL, then we can make Space Marine strong again!!

You forgot #MakeMarinesViable

How do you equip your scouts and why ? Shotguns, bolters, bolt pistols ?

Bolt pistols on mine, since i have them midfield humping los blocking terrain as hard as possible near an objective. If someone weakened gets close and/or they are forgotten about, they can hop around and cause some havoc.

I stick with Shotguns personally. Being able to advance and fire is pretty nice on the first turn when you need to cover even MORE ground.

bananathug wrote:
With Tau out, crons out and DE (or duthkari or whatever made up word they are using nowa days) is there any hope?

At first dark reapers made me shelve my marines and now I just look at all the cool stuff other armies are getting and can't wrap my head around why we are so terrible.

Is this just "the grass is always greener" syndrome or does anyone else feel like this? Hell even DA, BA and custodes are more interesting and more powerful than anything I can put together from our dex.

Should I just repaint all of my Templars to BA/DA (maybe save a couple of them to turn into SW when that dex comes out) or is there something I'm missing? Maybe there are more primarchs waiting out there to make us competitive but I just can't figure out what GW was thinking. Is it as simple as they have they sold enough marines and are pushing other army sales or is there some component of army construction that the community just hasn't figured out yet?

Looking at recent results either you are running guilliman and fire raptors or aren't going better than 4-2 at any competitive tournament. ITC format really hurts marines through secondaries and end of turn scoring that favors hordes and we just don't have enough killing/staying power for any other mission types I've seen.

Termies are terrible
Our tanks are made of paper and can't move/shoot
Tacs are over-costed
Hellblasters are out-shot by other good shooters, have no transport options and are too expensive
Aggressors only shine if they don't move
Inceptors need guilliman to be efficient compared to other armies deepstrike shooting (both bolt and plasma and DA does the plasma ones so much better)
LOL centurions
Sternguard actually shoot better with storm-bolters...
Vanguard vets don't have enough attacks/cost too much
Dreads negative to hit for heavy weapons really hurts against -1 to hit armies, t7 3+ is not tough in the current meta.
StormTalons got hurt by the AC nerf + are over costed (DA dark talons are so much better especially w/ a dark shroud)
Land raiders are like 100 points over-costed and there's nothing worth transporting in them
Helbrecht only giving +1 str to models w/in when a common blood angel chaplin give that to all UNITS w/in
Chappy grim only gives exploding 6's while sanguinor is over there giving +1 attacks
I could keep going but that's just the first couple shelves of my collection...

I take exception to this!

Marines aren't worse than custodes

3 Shield captains on jetbikes still being a imperial soup ingredient disagrees with you.
I haven't seen any vanilla marine components to imperial soup lists in the top lists coming from tournaments

No boltguns scouts ? I am interested because I am to model 10 scouts tuesday

 godardc wrote:
No boltguns scouts ? I am interested because I am to model 10 scouts tuesday

There's no point to Bolters.

stratigo wrote:

bananathug wrote:
With Tau out, crons out and DE (or duthkari or whatever made up word they are using nowa days) is there any hope?

At first dark reapers made me shelve my marines and now I just look at all the cool stuff other armies are getting and can't wrap my head around why we are so terrible.

Is this just "the grass is always greener" syndrome or does anyone else feel like this? Hell even DA, BA and custodes are more interesting and more powerful than anything I can put together from our dex.

Should I just repaint all of my Templars to BA/DA (maybe save a couple of them to turn into SW when that dex comes out) or is there something I'm missing? Maybe there are more primarchs waiting out there to make us competitive but I just can't figure out what GW was thinking. Is it as simple as they have they sold enough marines and are pushing other army sales or is there some component of army construction that the community just hasn't figured out yet?

Looking at recent results either you are running guilliman and fire raptors or aren't going better than 4-2 at any competitive tournament. ITC format really hurts marines through secondaries and end of turn scoring that favors hordes and we just don't have enough killing/staying power for any other mission types I've seen.

Termies are terrible
Our tanks are made of paper and can't move/shoot
Tacs are over-costed
Hellblasters are out-shot by other good shooters, have no transport options and are too expensive
Aggressors only shine if they don't move
Inceptors need guilliman to be efficient compared to other armies deepstrike shooting (both bolt and plasma and DA does the plasma ones so much better)
LOL centurions
Sternguard actually shoot better with storm-bolters...
Vanguard vets don't have enough attacks/cost too much
Dreads negative to hit for heavy weapons really hurts against -1 to hit armies, t7 3+ is not tough in the current meta.
StormTalons got hurt by the AC nerf + are over costed (DA dark talons are so much better especially w/ a dark shroud)
Land raiders are like 100 points over-costed and there's nothing worth transporting in them
Helbrecht only giving +1 str to models w/in when a common blood angel chaplin give that to all UNITS w/in
Chappy grim only gives exploding 6's while sanguinor is over there giving +1 attacks
I could keep going but that's just the first couple shelves of my collection...

I take exception to this!

Marines aren't worse than custodes

depends how you define worse or not. Custodes do one or two things and they do it better then ANYONE.

Custodes are highly survivable and the best codex period for melee plus they have the best strategems. Get them stuck in and it’s game over.

 Primark G wrote:
Custodes are highly survivable and the best codex period for melee plus they have the best strategems. Get them stuck in and it’s game over.

Custodes are quite tough against traditional attacks, and are very deadly when engaged against LOW TOUGHNESS units WITHOUT a decent inv saves or mobility.

Thus, although I agree that they are strong. I really doubt their capability in handling the real cheesy stuffs, like Flyrant spams or Flying Daemon Princes spam. Imo, those golden warriors that is fast enough to catch them lack real punch (5 Attacks with S6 D3D rerolling to hit and to wound rolls can only do average 3W on a flyrant), while those guys who can dush out a real serious hurt on those monsters cannot catch them after they arrived on ground (as anyone who can carry an Axe only moves 6").

Hell, actually, when facing Flyrant spam or DP spam, both Marines and Custodes are gonna to die like guardsmen because of the MW spam. And those kind of army can throw 20+ MW at you each turn, unless smite beta rule become official. Nowadays whenever I know I might face psychic heavy, I'd rather to spare 600+pts to bring in a "overcosted" GK supreme command detachment with Voldus, a GK Librarian and a GMNDK, mainly for their 6 chances of deny the witch with a +1.

 godardc wrote:
No boltguns scouts ? I am interested because I am to model 10 scouts tuesday

It doesn’t really matter what you give scouts. Their job is to stand in the way, not kill stuff. All their weapon options are pretty much identical anyway.

I’ve given mine shotguns, which are fine. Bolt guns are probably less good, but conceivably have a use late game trying to shoot other units off objectives. The problem is they are probably dead by then, and even if not their shooting will be pretty ineffective.

Honestly though give them what you want. Appearance is probably the most important factor, for the brief time they are on the battlefield.

 Primark G wrote:
Custodes are highly survivable and the best codex period for melee plus they have the best strategems. Get them stuck in and it’s game over.

They aren't the best at melee at all. Demons do melee better. Honestly, you can make a CSM army that is better in melee

Heck, the quirk of custodes melee has had me grinding my teeth against tau and just bouncing all the damage to drones. Not something, say, a unit of berzerkers has to worry much about.

Also... ummm... there's a lot of good stratagems. What, exactly, makes custodes' the 'best'?

I have been doing well versus Nidz. You should do more than three wounds to a tyrant if you charge it with a squad.

 Primark G wrote:
I have been doing well versus Nidz. You should do more than three wounds to a tyrant if you charge it with a squad.

You sure about that?

I use axes so yeah... hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s. Plus d3 damage. It is not rocket science.

Custodes axes are str 8?

Yeah plus they have the equivalent of VotLW for 1 CP.

How are you catching the Tyrant with a unit with axes? Or are they unwinged Tyrants?

From deep strike.

Also a squadron of three jetbikes can easily catch them...

12 attacks -> 10 hit + 2 (reroll) = 12

12 hits -> 4 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 7 wounds

HT takes 3-4 wounds.

You can pop the strategem to wound on +1 then:

12 hits -> 6 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 9 wounds

HT takes 4-5 wounds.

And of course don't forget 36 hurricane bolter shots...

 Primark G wrote:
From deep strike.

Also a squadron of three jetbikes can easily catch them...

12 attacks -> 10 hit + 2 (reroll) = 12

12 hits -> 4 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 7 wounds

HT takes 3-4 wounds.

You can pop the strategem to wound on +1 then:

12 hits -> 6 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 9 wounds

HT takes 4-5 wounds.

And of course don't forget 36 hurricane bolter shots...

A unit worth around 300pts only able to deal 40% wounds on a around 170pts model..... Is Custodes too weak or Nidz just too OP......

36 bolter shots...

30 hit

10 wound

3-4 more wounds

At this point the Tyrant is no longer a legitimate threat.

I'm not sure how relevant the effectiveness of custodes bikes vs hive tyrants is to this discussion of space marine tactics.

I actually find that my marines are pretty good at killing flyrants. I went up against 15 of them in two games at a tournament a couple of months back (one guy had 6, the other 9) and killed 12 of them. I beat the guy with 6 and drew against the guy with 9 - who won all of his other games that weekend.

I didn't do anything all that special to achieve this. I shot at them with lascannons, plasma incinerators and everything else I could lay my hands on. A top moment was when my captain (primaris guy with fist of vengeance) killed two of them in a turn, thanks to using the "honour the chapter" stratagem while backed up by null zone.

There are probably good reasons to take Custodes allies for marines, but I don't think flyrants are one of them. The flyrants' invulnerable saves make them pretty resistant to custodes in cc. I'm not at all sure what's the best way to get rid of them, though shooting them over and over again seems to get you there eventually.

Question are librarians actually worth taking at all and if so with what powers? Looking at the space marine powers compared to the chaos ones none of them seem particularly worth it? Im weighing up whether to keep my space marines as space marines or just convert them over to chaos to run a renegade chapter

I actually really rate Librarian powers - it's one of the only parts of the codex that doesn't suck.

Veil of time is a bit situational
Might of Heroes is absolute gold. It buffs a unit's S, T & A! Very flexible - drop it on a CC unit when their moment comes, or drop it on a big gun to raise it to T8 or 9. Especially useful on Leviathans and Land Raiders.
Psychi Scourge is also situational, but worth taking if you're going up against a low leadership army. Maybe.
Fury of the ancients is quite nice against MSU spam, but really, this is a power I never use.
Psychic Fortress is tactically finicky, but absolute gold against psyker heavy lists. Stick it on your speartip unit and shove it in their face, then watch half of one of their main sources of damage just plink off.
Null Zone might be the best power in the discipline. It paints a big honking target on every Librarian's back however, especially against Chaos players.

So yeah, three out of six are gold, and that's quite a good hit ratio compared to other disciplines (Hereticus excluded, as that thing is nuts.)

Might Of Heroes targets a model, not a unit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Might Of Heroes targets a model, not a unit.

Which is why it sucks. Null zone requires and 8 which is why it sucks. All the other powers suck.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Might Of Heroes targets a model, not a unit.

Which is why it sucks. Null zone requires and 8 which is why it sucks. All the other powers suck.

I disagree. Might of Heroes should be popped every turn on something big that the enemy wants to get rid of (like a dreadnought) for the +1 T, or on CC HQs like Primaris Captains or Shrike, or even veteran sergeants. Null Zone is amazing when it goes off, which is unfortunately rare. Psychic Fortress is very good on a unit with storm shields since they're the prime target for smite and have no defense against it.

Are they better than Chaos powers? No. Are they worth taking if you play Space Marines? Absolutely.

You need at least one Librarian as your anti psychic defense.

I also like the ultramarine relic for p defence in my um lists.

 Primark G wrote:
You need at least one Librarian as your anti psychic defense.

Not really. Librarians are not good value units. Most successful marine lists don't have them.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
You need at least one Librarian as your anti psychic defense.

Not really. Librarians are not good value units. Most successful marine lists don't have them.

Outside Tiggy of course, but that's because he is super special and can give something a -1 to hit on top of it all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
You need at least one Librarian as your anti psychic defense.

Not if you're Black Templars. Just deny a power at the correct time and you're gold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That or just get a Culexus.

I think that a Librarian's power depends very much on what he's buffing. I like might of heroes and null zone, but both should be viewed as buff spells.

Might of heroes needs a badass character to cast it on - or early on a big vehicle. Luckily my army features repulsors and a primaris captain with the fist of vengeance, so that's a result.

Meanwhile Null Zone is great defensively, if nasty stuff like flyrants and daemon primarchs keeps turning up in your deployment zone... unless they are Chronus flyrants of course. It doesn't always work, but with CPs for rerolls you've got a decent chance, and the difference it makes when it comes off is worth the risk that it won't.

I have to say, there's a pretty strong case for just taking a lieutenant instead of a Librarian. His buff to damage can be really huge, if he's got the right units around him, while the libby doesn't always work all that well.

Mandragola wrote:
I think that a Librarian's power depends very much on what he's buffing. I like might of heroes and null zone, but both should be viewed as buff spells.

Might of heroes needs a badass character to cast it on - or early on a big vehicle. Luckily my army features repulsors and a primaris captain with the fist of vengeance, so that's a result.

Meanwhile Null Zone is great defensively, if nasty stuff like flyrants and daemon primarchs keeps turning up in your deployment zone... unless they are Chronus flyrants of course. It doesn't always work, but with CPs for rerolls you've got a decent chance, and the difference it makes when it comes off is worth the risk that it won't.

I have to say, there's a pretty strong case for just taking a lieutenant instead of a Librarian. His buff to damage can be really huge, if he's got the right units around him, while the libby doesn't always work all that well.

There is also always the default Smite.

useful for when your enemy is also doing it and just to push the smite counter up by one. (if you play that rule)

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Question are librarians actually worth taking at all and if so with what powers? Looking at the space marine powers compared to the chaos ones none of them seem particularly worth it? Im weighing up whether to keep my space marines as space marines or just convert them over to chaos to run a renegade chapter

Although I generally agree that Space Marines don't have strong psychic presence in this edition. There might exists certain powers that are comparatively good, such as the "might of hero" which could make a close combat dread more tough and more punchy; "psychic fortress", as it could allow marine key units last longer against smite spam which is the bane of Space Marine; and the "Null Zone" of course.

Besides, raw, those buff power (Veil of Time, Might of Hero, Psychic Fortress) all works on keyword Adeptus Astartes. That means, you can give a pack of TWC reroll to charge and "always fight first unless enemy charges" (for the latter buff, is worth put on Wuflens as well). Or give that GMNDK Str7 base, which means he will wound most things on 2s without hammerhand on himself, frees up that power on other units that might it more.

Null Zone rocks and I bring Tiggy who usually gets it off.

Martel typical response - What about other chapters?

/rollseyes

So Tiggy is good. Not librarians. I was talking about librarians.

Tiggy is a Librarian. BA have Mephiston - I heard he is okay.

 Primark G wrote:
Tiggy is a Librarian. BA have Mephiston - I heard he is okay.

He aint my librarian.

Mephiston has some issues for sure, but neither are stock librarians, which I was referring to in my post. Nowhere did I mention special character librarians.

I find psychic defense to be a non-issue most games, since most psykers are pretty inefficient.

I run a nameless jump pack librarian every game, with Might of Heroes and Null Zone, sometimes swapping one out for Psychic Fortress, usually deep striking him along with Shrike and TH/SS Veterans. I find not only does it allow me to deny Smites or vicious powers like Death Hex, it can also give Shrike 6 attacks hitting on 2+ with rerolls, wounding MEQs on 3+ with rerolls at AP-3, doing D3 damage in case he's murdering an HQ, also giving him T5 in case he gets hit back. All this with Null Zone to stop them from taking invulnerable saves - which also makes the Thunder Hammer boys insane.

If you're taking a nameless librarian to sit in the back with a gunline protecting tacs or intercessors from smite and giving a predator T8 for giggles then you're not using him to full effectiveness. Marines are flexible. When you make a list, give your Librarian a purpose. Use him for that purpose.

A back line Libby has value against meleecentric armies doing the same powers you mentioned. A critical denial can be a game winner.

I find librarians are super fragile for their points cost. And the 24" denial range is frequently super problematic.

Similar idea but I tend to lean towards viel of time for that reroll 9inch charge and nullzone or occasionally might of heroes.
His main job is to help my vanguard vets or hammernators make that charge.
But I'll be the first to admit its not something I'd use in a tournament.

Though sadly that applys to about 80-90% of the vanilla marine codex.

I run a lib with my venerable dreadnought. The might of hero's boost is very useful to keep it alive as it charges forward looking to smash something hard. Otherwise I use null zone and smite.

Are there more flashy psychic powers out there? Yeah, but generic sm ones work just fine. But like others have said, make sure it has a job and stick to it, don't just grab one then go "it didn't do anything".

 Primark G wrote:
A back line Libby has value against meleecentric armies doing the same powers you mentioned. A critical denial can be a game winner.

True, I guess you're right. But Ultramarines should just take Sanctic Halo (or Tiggy) and Black Templars, well, yeah.

I do use the Santic Halo when I run a Captain.

 Primark G wrote:
I do use the Santic Halo when I run a Captain.

Then what's the point of a generic Librarian after that and Tiggy being ran?

Generic Librarians aren't good. At least in 7th there was a lot more variety so you could roll to do a specific job. With how powers work this edition and there only being one table for access, they don't do much.

I typically don’t run a Captain. The only psyker I bring is Tiggy but I do want to try out Eisenhorn.

I find it hard NOT to run a bike librarian. Null Zone can be to important to not take it. The casting or 8 is not all bad. You had better roll high to cast it because almost everything you really want it for will have a deny roll saved for it. The Bike gives me maximum maneuverability in placing the librarian in the right spot for the Null zone.

The points cost for the Libby is steep though. For 129pts he needs 2 denies. Also I found that pairing the Null Zone Libby with a Culexus (who forces -2 to the enemy deny roll) really helps.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I find it hard NOT to run a bike librarian. Null Zone can be to important to not take it. The casting or 8 is not all bad. You had better roll high to cast it because almost everything you really want it for will have a deny roll saved for it. The Bike gives me maximum maneuverability in placing the librarian in the right spot for the Null zone.

The points cost for the Libby is steep though. For 129pts he needs 2 denies. Also I found that pairing the Null Zone Libby with a Culexus (who forces -2 to the enemy deny roll) really helps.

I think the funny thing is that Null Zone being so hard to cast means it's even harder to deny. Enemy psykers need a deny test at the very minimum of 9, which is not an easy feat.

 SputnikDX wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
I find it hard NOT to run a bike librarian. Null Zone can be to important to not take it. The casting or 8 is not all bad. You had better roll high to cast it because almost everything you really want it for will have a deny roll saved for it. The Bike gives me maximum maneuverability in placing the librarian in the right spot for the Null zone.

The points cost for the Libby is steep though. For 129pts he needs 2 denies. Also I found that pairing the Null Zone Libby with a Culexus (who forces -2 to the enemy deny roll) really helps.

I think the funny thing is that Null Zone being so hard to cast means it's even harder to deny. Enemy psykers need a deny test at the very minimum of 9, which is not an easy feat.

Null zone on harlequins or even custodes would probably make them cry assuming they didnt take some sort of psyker them selves. its too trolllicious not to take.

heros might only matters if some one brings some good ST8 or 9 shooting attacks before you have a chance to deal with it.

but default probably should be nullzone.

 Desubot wrote:


Null zone on harlequins or even custodes would probably make them cry assuming they didnt take some sort of psyker them selves. its too trolllicious not to take.

heros might only matters if some one brings some good ST8 or 9 shooting attacks before you have a chance to deal with it.

but default probably should be nullzone.

Might of Heroes is hella scary on HQs though. I already mentioned Shrike's 6 S5 LC attacks, but what about Salamander Gravis Captains with the toughness of Hive Tyrants? Or T9 Ironclads with 5 S14 chainfist attacks?

Null Zone is soooo goooood - it is a game winner against certain armies.

 Primark G wrote:
Null Zone is soooo goooood - it is a game winner against certain armies.

It's amazing watching someone so reliant on 3++ or 4++ just get told that they took 12 damage with no save. Null Zone + Thunder Hammers is a gift that keeps on giving.

And if you play a list that can go forward if it needs to or shoot if it needs to, you can use might of heroes either way.

Bottom line: librarians are decent. I don't think anyone's saying you must take one, but they work.

Librarians are weak, expensive, and have useless powers.
I mean, sure, Null Zone seems great ! I know this, but I have never ever passed it. Which is a shame as it could be so useful !
Might of heroes, on a tank ? Really ? So that my T8 predator can now be wounded on 3+ as my T7 predator by all the lascanons ?
Or the power to protect your units from mortal wound ? I mean, only psychic mortal wound. I mean only against psychic mortal wound on 4+ if you passed the power

They could make the powers really good, just by twerking them a little (all mortal wound, not just psy, and on +3 maybe), might of heroes targeting a unit (increase the cost to balance it), etc.

If you are going to use MoH to buff a tank it should be a land raider, repulsor or vindicator - you are doing it wrong that's all.

 Primark G wrote:
If you are going to use MoH to buff a tank it should be a land raider, repulsor or vindicator - you are doing it wrong that's all.

Or if its some filthy xeno scum with their weaker lascannons.
Or if you managed to tag all of their lascannons and all they are left with is random STR7 weapons.
Or that filthy ST7 DP with malific talons is eyeing that tank.

Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

A repulsor is hard to ignore when it contains 10 hellblasters and shoots a bunch of lascannons and dakka at you. It’s downright distracting, honestly.

Repulsor aren’t rhinos or razorbacks. They are more like a cross between a land raider and a stormraven. People keep telling me they are useless but I seem to be able to compete at hardcore tournaments using them. Weird.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

A repulsor is hard to ignore when it contains 10 hellblasters and shoots a bunch of lascannons and dakka at you. It’s downright distracting, honestly.

Repulsor aren’t rhinos or razorbacks. They are more like a cross between a land raider and a stormraven. People keep telling me they are useless but I seem to be able to compete at hardcore tournaments using them. Weird.

And they're not showing up en masse to those hardcore tournaments! Weird.

There is actually a reason for that.

Also Hellblasters are super mediocre unless you're Dark Angels and able to Strategem them to greatness every turn.

Repulsors would be viable if the base cost were 100 pts less. They sjmply cost too much per wound atm. Even t9 does not make them efficient.

Hellblasters are great in ITC missions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

A repulsor is hard to ignore when it contains 10 hellblasters and shoots a bunch of lascannons and dakka at you. It’s downright distracting, honestly.

Repulsor aren’t rhinos or razorbacks. They are more like a cross between a land raider and a stormraven. People keep telling me they are useless but I seem to be able to compete at hardcore tournaments using them. Weird.

And they're not showing up en masse to those hardcore tournaments! Weird.

There is actually a reason for that.

Also Hellblasters are super mediocre unless you're Dark Angels and able to Strategem them to greatness every turn.

This is still the space marine thread, right?

Literally every unit in this army is mediocre.

 Primark G wrote:
Hellblasters are great in ITC missions.

They are mediocre. They need babysitters and get shut down hard by -1 to hit. They also have no way to start in reserve, which is a huge problem.

I play a modified gun line.

If I've got a bunch of 48" guns and/or indirect guns, your hellblasters are done. Predator autocannons slaughter them through the BA FNP banner even. Now if primaris got their own drop pods; then we'd be in business.

Do you understand how line of sight blocking terrain works in ITC? You can only shoot units in the first floor with indirect fire and I will be taking my 2+ cover saves.

I am curious what you guys are running lately, if you are even actually playing Marines.

Would it be out of place here ask people to list generally what you've been running, what parts you've found work, and what armies you've had a hard time against?

Ideally pure SM, but I'd be interested also in what you've been using as allies as well.

jcd386 wrote:
I am curious what you guys are running lately, if you are even actually playing Marines.

Would it be out of place here ask people to list generally what you've been running, what parts you've found work, and what armies you've had a hard time against?

Ideally pure SM, but I'd be interested also in what you've been using as allies as well.

I run either pure Iron Hands list, or a mixed Imperium list with Iron Hands and 3 Custodes Shield Captains on jetbike.
Pure Iron Hands list is not too terrible against soft Craftworlds or Tyranids list so far.
But still, I do struggle to keep up with those factions more often than not.
Addition of 3 Shield Captains on jetbike allows me to fight stronger factions on more or less equal footing.

But then again, I never faced lists spamming alaitoc dark reapers or hive tyrants.
Against these tourney winning lists, I would not stand a chance of putting up a good fight.

Here’s my current list.

Tiggy
Primaris Lt. (burning blade)

2x 5x Intercessor - bolt rifles - auxiliary grenade launcher - power sword

5x Scout - bolt pistols & combat blades

5x Hellblaster - standard incinerator

4x Inceptor - plasma exterminator

Culexus Assassin

Trajann

Shield Captain mounted on Dawneagle - hurricane bolter - 3++

3x Allarus Custodian

4x Warden - 3x Axe - Spear

Vexilla Praetor - Spear

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

A repulsor is hard to ignore when it contains 10 hellblasters and shoots a bunch of lascannons and dakka at you. It’s downright distracting, honestly.

Repulsor aren’t rhinos or razorbacks. They are more like a cross between a land raider and a stormraven. People keep telling me they are useless but I seem to be able to compete at hardcore tournaments using them. Weird.

And they're not showing up en masse to those hardcore tournaments! Weird.

There is actually a reason for that.

Also Hellblasters are super mediocre unless you're Dark Angels and able to Strategem them to greatness every turn.

If you put 10 Ultramarine hellblasters near Guilliman, they eat almost everything within 15" and not having a decent inv saves or tons of wounds or not under protection of Venomthropes. I think their main issue is not the firepower but their survivability. Their firepower make them the focus of enemy firepower. So getting them into position to at least fire one round in their full strength is the key. That is one good reason to take Repulsor. Just hell, that thing is expensive.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

A repulsor is hard to ignore when it contains 10 hellblasters and shoots a bunch of lascannons and dakka at you. It’s downright distracting, honestly.

Repulsor aren’t rhinos or razorbacks. They are more like a cross between a land raider and a stormraven. People keep telling me they are useless but I seem to be able to compete at hardcore tournaments using them. Weird.

And they're not showing up en masse to those hardcore tournaments! Weird.

There is actually a reason for that.

Also Hellblasters are super mediocre unless you're Dark Angels and able to Strategem them to greatness every turn.

If you put 10 Ultramarine hellblasters near Guilliman, they eat almost everything within 15" and not having a decent inv saves or tons of wounds or not under protection of Venomthropes. I think their main issue is not the firepower but their survivability. Their firepower make them the focus of enemy firepower. So getting them into position to at least fire one round in their full strength is the key. That is one good reason to take Repulsor. Just hell, that thing is expensive.

Rowboat makes anything near him better. That's not new. It isn't even up for discussion. Saying to run Rowboat to make them better is basically saying asking AdMech players to keep using Cawl.

Plus how are you going to have Rowboat keep up with the Repulsor?

On the topic of MoH, Been running Bray'arth Ashmantle in a Dreadnought drop pod with a librarian with a jump pack. Not really point efficient, but it is hilarious to see a T10 2+5++4+++ dreadnought eat all the fire a gunline can dish out against it. The dreadnought drop pod even becomes a bunker because he's a character dreadnought with 8 wounds. If the opposing army isn't carrying a lot of S5/9/10 Weapons then I just use VoT instead for a better chance at first turn charges.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

A repulsor is hard to ignore when it contains 10 hellblasters and shoots a bunch of lascannons and dakka at you. It’s downright distracting, honestly.

Repulsor aren’t rhinos or razorbacks. They are more like a cross between a land raider and a stormraven. People keep telling me they are useless but I seem to be able to compete at hardcore tournaments using them. Weird.

So you have a repulsor, 10 hellblaster and a librarian, meaning you have about 33% of your army in one unit. But it is ok because it is T9 ...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

A repulsor is hard to ignore when it contains 10 hellblasters and shoots a bunch of lascannons and dakka at you. It’s downright distracting, honestly.

Repulsor aren’t rhinos or razorbacks. They are more like a cross between a land raider and a stormraven. People keep telling me they are useless but I seem to be able to compete at hardcore tournaments using them. Weird.

And they're not showing up en masse to those hardcore tournaments! Weird.

There is actually a reason for that.

Also Hellblasters are super mediocre unless you're Dark Angels and able to Strategem them to greatness every turn.

If you put 10 Ultramarine hellblasters near Guilliman, they eat almost everything within 15" and not having a decent inv saves or tons of wounds or not under protection of Venomthropes. I think their main issue is not the firepower but their survivability. Their firepower make them the focus of enemy firepower. So getting them into position to at least fire one round in their full strength is the key. That is one good reason to take Repulsor. Just hell, that thing is expensive.

Rowboat makes anything near him better. That's not new. It isn't even up for discussion. Saying to run Rowboat to make them better is basically saying asking AdMech players to keep using Cawl.

Plus how are you going to have Rowboat keep up with the Repulsor?

The Ultramarine Primarch makes lots of things near him better, that is no doubt. But that I don't think that indicate Hellblaster are bad when this unit is devasting when buffed by Guilliman. TBH, some units, like Tactical Squads, Scouts Squads and Assault Squads are too low in their firepower output that even if you take Guilliman they are not worth to be squeeze into that 6" bubble to gain the buff. On the other hand, units like Aggressors, Devastators, Predators, Leviathan Dread, "maybe" the Repulsors, and the Contemptor Dread / Venerable Dread would become really deadly when near the Primarch. The Hellblasters, owing to their 5-10 RF AP-4 plasma make them worthy to get buff by Guilliman.

Guilliman naturally moves 8", so with +1" to advance, he can certainly keep up with Repulsor which moves 10" a turn. Even Tigirius if close to Guilliman, with advance can keep himself within 6" of Repulsor to give it -1 to hit for the first two turns.......

Thats an insane amount of points to invest for 10 helblaster shots though. Like jesus your sinking 1100pts plus into that, over half of a 2k list. Even temoving guilliman and tiggy thats a minimum cost of 600pts probably more likely 700. So still half of the 1300 pts you had left after guilliman and tiggy and scouts.

 godardc wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I typically start the game making one of my repulsors T9. Combining that with the armour of contempt stratagem if people try to smite it to death can make it soak a ton of enemy fire. It's a good way to absorb stuff like flyrant alpha strikes, especially when the enemy have -2" off their charge rolls if they want to go for a repulsor (which flyrants probably won't).

The repulsor does quite often still die, but not without taking a hell of a lot of killing. It's a sustainable loss at 2k, and puts me in a good position to hit back.

...OR They just ignore it because it isn't transporting anything good for the cost?

A repulsor is hard to ignore when it contains 10 hellblasters and shoots a bunch of lascannons and dakka at you. It’s downright distracting, honestly.

Repulsor aren’t rhinos or razorbacks. They are more like a cross between a land raider and a stormraven. People keep telling me they are useless but I seem to be able to compete at hardcore tournaments using them. Weird.

So you have a repulsor, 10 hellblaster and a librarian, meaning you have about 33% of your army in one unit. But it is ok because it is T9 ...

It's 4 units by my count. Repulsor, 2x5 hellblasters and librarian. The libby tends to start in my other repulsor, along with assorted other characters and another unit.

I'm not sure what your point is anyway. Sure, sometimes people kill a repulsor - but not all that easily. And it's not as if the hellblasters and libby die if they do.

I actually see it as a clear benefit to have only a few drops. My army tends to have 5 or 6, so I get to go first in about 60% of games, which really helps.

Ice_can wrote:
Thats an insane amount of points to invest for 10 helblaster shots though. Like jesus your sinking 1100pts plus into that, over half of a 2k list. Even temoving guilliman and tiggy thats a minimum cost of 600pts probably more likely 700. So still half of the 1300 pts you had left after guilliman and tiggy and scouts.

Right, because Guilliman, Tiggy and the Repulsor do nothing else. And the hellblasters never get to rapid fire.

Seriously.

Ice_can wrote:
Thats an insane amount of points to invest for 10 helblaster shots though. Like jesus your sinking 1100pts plus into that, over half of a 2k list. Even temoving guilliman and tiggy thats a minimum cost of 600pts probably more likely 700. So still half of the 1300 pts you had left after guilliman and tiggy and scouts.

I agree, that is an very expensive combination. But most thing in marine codex is overcosted anyway, except maybe Guilliman. If using this combination, it is basically the core of the army, the rest would be some Scout screens, a couple Dreadnought to help Guilliman in melee, and some units carrying lascsnnons. The strategy is try to up close ASAP and unleash 1-2 deadly salvo then into combat if needed.

Some times it work, sometimes it don't. You might somehow need to hope that -1 / -2 to hit and the psychic power from Tigirius is enough to keep the bulk of your army (i.e. that Repulsor and Dread) alive long enough.

Even discounting Guilliman and Tiggy thats is still over half of your points in a single drop, that is kinda one trick.
600-700 points gets you a lot of razorbacks, you also have what 1 or 2 other target for all my anti tank to pound, one turning a single repulsor is easier than one turning magnus/morti and at that point your hellbsters are on foot and prime for anti infantry death.

 Primark G wrote:
If you are going to use MoH to buff a tank it should be a land raider, repulsor or vindicator - you are doing it wrong that's all.

That's not totally the case. Slapping it on a Dreadnought who's already made it into the thick of it means you can take advantage of the boost to Strength and Attacks as well, and T8 isn't bad just because it's no functional difference against Lascannons. S9 at 48" is a luxury I think the Imperium takes for granted. A lot of anti-vehicle is S7, S8, or just massed shots of lower S. T8 dreadnoughts also mean desperate S4 spam becomes grossly ineffective.

Making one target harder to kill than others influences your opponents decisions. Should I shoot at this T9 Raven Guard Leviathan closing in on me with my lascannons even though I'm hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, and he gets a 4++ save? Or should I just shoot that predator?

And with Null Zone "never going off," the threat of it is still real. Jump pack libbys especially threaten a HUGE 18" area around them with their speed and the possibility of getting Null Zone off, and using it to mow down a hoard of daemons or murder a costly HQ who's squishy outside of his invul save is a threat your opponent will have to consider.

So bottom line is I don't think Librarians are bad. I wouldn't mind a point decrease (before CA they were way too taxing), but they're by no means bad.

jcd386 wrote:
I am curious what you guys are running lately, if you are even actually playing Marines.

Would it be out of place here ask people to list generally what you've been running, what parts you've found work, and what armies you've had a hard time against?

Ideally pure SM, but I'd be interested also in what you've been using as allies as well.

My latest list which I've been sticking too is a pure Raven Guard list with Kevin Shrike, Jump Libby, 3 Vanguard Veteran squads, 4 scout squads, 2 intercessors, 3 predators, and whatever other riff raff I can muster, usually an extra Captain and a Lieutenant to support my backline. Since I've used it I've been really lucky getting first turn, so I'm worried it will crumple if I ever go second. Kill Shot is a godlike stratagem that more than makes up the loss of Chapter Tactics, and I find shooty dreadnoughts too slow for my liking, and very difficult to reposition to find new targets.

The list is scary. The only downside is I usually give away a free point for Slay the Warlord since Shrike will almost always get stuck in. I'd like to try to play him more conservatively and let a dinky Captain land in his place, but the re-roll charge aura is way too strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And they're not showing up en masse to those hardcore tournaments! Weird.

There is actually a reason for that.

Also Hellblasters are super mediocre unless you're Dark Angels and able to Strategem them to greatness every turn.

Just because a unit isn't the best, most cost effective thing in the codex doesn't mean it's terrible. High, high, high level 40k isn't really what we should all strive to play, or we'd just be back to Gillman and his four birds. If the man says Repulsors are effective, then maybe you should drop it on the table one time and give it a shot. You can't determine a unit's effectiveness purely on paper; you gotta test it.

I have curb stomped every opponent with a repulsor, Tiggy or not. It just doesn't bring enough utility for its price.

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
If you are going to use MoH to buff a tank it should be a land raider, repulsor or vindicator - you are doing it wrong that's all.

That's not totally the case. Slapping it on a Dreadnought who's already made it into the thick of it means you can take advantage of the boost to Strength and Attacks as well, and T8 isn't bad just because it's no functional difference against Lascannons. S9 at 48" is a luxury I think the Imperium takes for granted. A lot of anti-vehicle is S7, S8, or just massed shots of lower S. T8 dreadnoughts also mean desperate S4 spam becomes grossly ineffective.

Making one target harder to kill than others influences your opponents decisions. Should I shoot at this T9 Raven Guard Leviathan closing in on me with my lascannons even though I'm hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, and he gets a 4++ save? Or should I just shoot that predator?

And with Null Zone "never going off," the threat of it is still real. Jump pack libbys especially threaten a HUGE 18" area around them with their speed and the possibility of getting Null Zone off, and using it to mow down a hoard of daemons or murder a costly HQ who's squishy outside of his invul save is a threat your opponent will have to consider.

So bottom line is I don't think Librarians are bad. I wouldn't mind a point decrease (before CA they were way too taxing), but they're by no means bad.

jcd386 wrote:
I am curious what you guys are running lately, if you are even actually playing Marines.

Would it be out of place here ask people to list generally what you've been running, what parts you've found work, and what armies you've had a hard time against?

Ideally pure SM, but I'd be interested also in what you've been using as allies as well.

My latest list which I've been sticking too is a pure Raven Guard list with Kevin Shrike, Jump Libby, 3 Vanguard Veteran squads, 4 scout squads, 2 intercessors, 3 predators, and whatever other riff raff I can muster, usually an extra Captain and a Lieutenant to support my backline. Since I've used it I've been really lucky getting first turn, so I'm worried it will crumple if I ever go second. Kill Shot is a godlike stratagem that more than makes up the loss of Chapter Tactics, and I find shooty dreadnoughts too slow for my liking, and very difficult to reposition to find new targets.

The list is scary. The only downside is I usually give away a free point for Slay the Warlord since Shrike will almost always get stuck in. I'd like to try to play him more conservatively and let a dinky Captain land in his place, but the re-roll charge aura is way too strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And they're not showing up en masse to those hardcore tournaments! Weird.

There is actually a reason for that.

Also Hellblasters are super mediocre unless you're Dark Angels and able to Strategem them to greatness every turn.

Just because a unit isn't the best, most cost effective thing in the codex doesn't mean it's terrible. High, high, high level 40k isn't really what we should all strive to play, or we'd just be back to Gillman and his four birds. If the man says Repulsors are effective, then maybe you should drop it on the table one time and give it a shot. You can't determine a unit's effectiveness purely on paper; you gotta test it.

Do you play with three 10-men vv squads or with half squads ?

 godardc wrote:

Do you play with three 10-men vv squads or with half squads ?

I run 5 TH/SS and two squads of 4 stock Vanguard and Lightning Claw sergeants. I haven't ran them yet with double chainswords because I feel like it's kinda goofy and doesn't fit the fluff (plus finding right AND left handed chainswords means I need to dip into two sprues for each model), but I know it'll be more effective. I rarely use those pistols.

Do you get +1A for each chainsword?

Yes.

 Primark G wrote:
Do you get +1A for each chainsword?

Yup. That'd put a 5 man squad at 21 attacks for only 90 points, which isn't too shabby in my opinion.

It's good. Especially for BA.

Martel732 wrote:
It's good. Especially for BA.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/746294.page

Pls go. We don't tolerate that kind of heretical +1 to wound ty.

21 attacks is good in my tactical book!

 Primark G wrote:
Do you get +1A for each chainsword?

Do you actually own the codex or are you trolling at this point?

 Primark G wrote:
21 attacks is good in my tactical book!

Here's the only problem I'm having trouble avoiding.

A scenario:
You find a nice soft spot in the enemy flank, with squishy, high value targets, like heavy weapons teams.
You charge in, and roll beautifully, slaughtering every squishy guardsmen in the unit.
You are left standing in the middle of the now empty area, right in the middle of the Astra Militarum army.

First rank, fire.
Second rank, fire.

 SputnikDX wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's good. Especially for BA.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/746294.page

Pls go. We don't tolerate that kind of heretical +1 to wound ty.

We are 90% identical! You are stuck with me. I probably have more experience at squeezing value out of the marine statline than most marine posters in here. You guys and your not-IG gunlines. Please.

Martel732 wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's good. Especially for BA.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/746294.page

Pls go. We don't tolerate that kind of heretical +1 to wound ty.

We are 90% identical! You are stuck with me. I probably have more experience at squeezing value out of the marine statline than most marine posters in here. You guys and your not-IG gunlines. Please.

I'm just kidding. People think the pale skin is a defect of the geneseed, but really it's just salt. Why do Blood Angels get to have so many more jump pack characters than Raven Guard!

Yeah, that's dumb. But the jump priest is index only, so they might go away.

Also, why do BA ASM get melta and plasma, but not vanilla? We are still inferior to scions, but throw vanilla a bone!

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that's dumb. But the jump priest is index only, so they might go away.

Also, why do BA ASM get melta and plasma, but not vanilla? We are still inferior to scions, but throw vanilla a bone!

That's why the Angels Codices need to be rolled into the main codex. They're just not different enough to warrant a separate codex.

I've always wanted to put a Melta on my ASM squad. Since i first picked up SM when I started.

But then I still want to field ASM not VV, which the rules don't seem to appreciate.

Melta sucks in 8th. You're not missing much.

Bharring wrote:
I've always wanted to put a Melta on my ASM squad. Since i first picked up SM when I started.

But then I still want to field ASM not VV, which the rules don't seem to appreciate.

ASM jump packs should drop a point to be in line with Vets. Some reason Jump Packs are 3ppm for ASM and 2ppm for VV, which makes the choice super easy.

I see the VV with double chainswords as good for removing bubble wrap chaff.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 godardc wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you want to castle what's the point of Tactical Marines? They get less heavy weapons for the points.

I need units to go and capture the objectives, and until this very momebt, I thought that with 3 heavy support choices I had filled all my choices, but... We are in 8th now ! I have 6 choices !
HoweverI want to keep at least a little fluff in my army, and tactical squad are the only ones who never disappointed me. They always do something good before dying.

Then if you want to move forward buy more Scouts.

Do you think I should erase the two Tactical squad ? And replace them with even more scouts ? Wouldn't that be too many scouts ?

 SputnikDX wrote:

 godardc wrote:

Do you play with three 10-men vv squads or with half squads ?

I run 5 TH/SS and two squads of 4 stock Vanguard and Lightning Claw sergeants. I haven't ran them yet with double chainswords because I feel like it's kinda goofy and doesn't fit the fluff (plus finding right AND left handed chainswords means I need to dip into two sprues for each model), but I know it'll be more effective. I rarely use those pistols.

How have they been doing ? I have never tried stock vv, I mean I used to play a big 10 man squad with some stuff, but it didn't end well, and I stopped playing them.

Have you tried to use your rhinos as a "wall" to protect you from being assaulted ? Could it work with 3 rhinos ?

 godardc wrote:

How have they been doing ? I have never tried stock vv, I mean I used to play a big 10 man squad with some stuff, but it didn't end well, and I stopped playing them.

They've been doing phenomenally. I run them differently depending on who I'm fighting, either infiltrating them with SftS to get alpha strikes or leaving them in my back line as a very mobile and very deadly screen. If you want to run them in deep strike, I recommend landing on turn 1 somewhere safe midfield where you can't be shot at, then moving your 12" up to their weakest point and charging in, killing infantry and tying up tanks to keep them from shooting your big guns.

The only issue I have with the stock VV is that they usually need to punch way under their weight, and often they don't make their points back in raw kills. Units like guardsmen, cultists, (weakened) boyz and daemons is where they shine. Tough 3 and/or gakky saves is what you're looking for. What they also do, however, is cause enough chaos in the enemy lines to draw aggro and allow my other units to get into better position, since their jump packs allow them to jump OVER infantry to tie up tanks. Usually I'll charge Shrike towards literally everything within 12" since he ignores overwatch, and move him to tie up as many units as possible. Then his buddies will charge

I used to run 10 man but I'd recommend two squads of 5 for a variety of reasons. First, you get near immunity to morale at only 5 units, failing only on a 5+ after 4 guys die in one turn, and ATSKNF usually keeps you doing alright. Second, because they're primary purpose is causing chaos and making sure half of their gunline can't shoot, you're better taking two squads and keeping them somewhat separated to tie up as much as possible.

TH/SS are about as bulky as you'd expect, which sadly isn't that much. Keep them safe until the opportunity arrives, then move them in and watch them obliterate anything they touch. I usually run them into enemy HQ formations or tank formations with Libby trying his hardest to pop null zone.

jcd386 wrote:
I am curious what you guys are running lately, if you are even actually playing Marines.

Would it be out of place here ask people to list generally what you've been running, what parts you've found work, and what armies you've had a hard time against?

Ideally pure SM, but I'd be interested also in what you've been using as allies as well.

Only Marines, doing the Lias Issodon bomb.

It's Lias + Liutenant in jetpack + 10 devastators with 4 gravs + 10 sternguard with SIB + 5 Cataphractii terminators with combi & Ligthing claw and a Fist on sergeant as "The Bomb".
In the back, a Primaris Captain, 2 Venerable Dreads with Las and Missiles, 2 Tactical squad with a Lascannon and a Heavy Bolter, 3 Scout squads and 2 Razorbacks.

While some like to drop a few bodies in deepstrike to do a fire and forget tactics, like AM Scions, I think that actually showing up with a force of some size has a better impact on the overall match. Sternguard should be better with Storm Bolters, but I like the SIB because with the stratagem and the Storm of Fire Warlord trait I can actually use them as anti tank guns in a pinch, and that actually saved my army a couple of times. Gravs once dropping with Lias have been very effective against all targets, really liking them. Can't see another way to use them outside of the Issodon-bomb. The Cataphracti Terminators are there because I like them but they do work. Sometimes I send them on the opposide side of the Issodon Bomb, as a "distraction". If they are ignored, they usually manage to do some damage. Otherwise, the +1" to move and charge given by Issodon really helps them. I've succesfully landed the bomb, cleared the path with the shooting phase and then charged with the termies a couple of times.

I played this list, with some minor variations, against AM, GK, Mechanicus and Chaos (usually CSM and DG). So not first tier armies honestly, but against those it works. Only time I really struggle is against Chaos Zombie armies. I don't think SM have enough firepower to actually remove them from the game effectively, but it makes for a superfun scenario even when I'm losing because I love the "concept of the fight". Against AM I never really had a problem, the -1 to hit afforded by Ravenguard Tactics is protection enough and their tanks melt pretty well with gravs and stratagem boosted SIB. Fun fact: when Lias needs to kill something he gets too excited and my rolls are awful. When he is casually shooting at random targets he is usually overkill. "worst performing piece of the army". XD

I should go against an Eldar Bikes list in a few but I have absolutely no clue how to efficiently take them down. Actually if someone has some experience against them I would love to hear it.

SputnikDX glad to hear your vets are rocking it out for ya!

Here's my current list. I'm taking it to a tournament on Saturday, so we'll see how I get on.

Battalion Detachment: +3 CPs

Primaris Captain with Power Fist (Warlord) 106
Plasma Pistol
The Fist of Vengeance Relic (replacing Power Fist)
Warlord Trait: The Imperium's Sword (or Fist!). Warlord rerolls failed charges, and gets +1A the turn he charges.

Primaris Librarian 101
Force Sword
Smite
Null Zone
Might of Heroes

5 Intercessors 91
Bolt Rifles
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

5 Intercessors 95
Bolt Rifles
Power Sword
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

5 Scouts 55
Astartes Shotguns

5 Hellblasters 165
Plasma Incinerators

5 Hellblasters 165
Plasma Incinerators

Repulsor 344
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Three Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber

Repulsor 348
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Icarus Rocket Pod
Two Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber

Vanguard Detachment: +1 CP

Primaris Lieutenant 74
Power Sword

5 Aggressors 185
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

Primaris Ancient 69

Relic Deredeo Dreadnought 202
Anvillus Autocannon Battery
Twin Heavy Bolter

 Primark G wrote:
From deep strike.

Also a squadron of three jetbikes can easily catch them...

12 attacks -> 10 hit + 2 (reroll) = 12

12 hits -> 4 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 7 wounds

HT takes 3-4 wounds.

You can pop the strategem to wound on +1 then:

12 hits -> 6 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 9 wounds

HT takes 4-5 wounds.

And of course don't forget 36 hurricane bolter shots...

Just, as a note, bikers don't have guardian spears, so they cannot use the plus 1 to wound strategem

Yeah that has already been pointed out but thanks.

Mandragola wrote:
Here's my current list. I'm taking it to a tournament on Saturday, so we'll see how I get on.

Battalion Detachment: +3 CPs

Primaris Captain with Power Fist (Warlord) 106
Plasma Pistol
The Fist of Vengeance Relic (replacing Power Fist)
Warlord Trait: The Imperium's Sword (or Fist!). Warlord rerolls failed charges, and gets +1A the turn he charges.

Primaris Librarian 101
Force Sword
Smite
Null Zone
Might of Heroes

5 Intercessors 91
Bolt Rifles
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

5 Intercessors 95
Bolt Rifles
Power Sword
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

5 Scouts 55
Base Cost for Five Scouts
Astartes Shotguns

5 Hellblasters 165
Plasma Incinerators

5 Hellblasters 165
Plasma Incinerators

Repulsor 344
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Three Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber

Repulsor 348
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Icarus Rocket Pod
Two Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber

Vanguard Detachment: +1 CP

Primaris Lieutenant 74
Power Sword

5 Aggressors 185
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

Primaris Ancient 69

Relic Deredeo Dreadnought 202
Anvillus Autocannon Battery
Twin Heavy Bolter

Why a primaris librarian ? He isn't better at casting and is more expensive. A repulsor can carry 10, you have two repulsor but 22 primaris in you first detachement: who is going to be left behind ?


I twerked my list a little, taking less useless Tactical boltgun marines, removing the fragile stormraven and putting more veterans.
Chronus is a cheap HQ to give me more CP, and a librarian is always welcome to help to deny the witch. I had points left so I took a thunderfire just for the stratagem, I might remove it in the future but I think it may be useful with all my CP.

2 bataillon detachments (9CP)

Ultramarines

1 chronus
1 lieutenant master crafted boltgun

5 tac plasma rifle combi plasma
5 tac plasma rifle combi plasma
5 tactical marines flamer combi flamer

6 scout bikers

1 predator autocannon lascannon hunter-killer
1 predator autocannon lascannon hunter-killer
1 thunderfire

3 rhinos two stormbolters


1 captain relic blade shield eternal
1 librarian

5 company veterans with stormbolter and chainsword
5 company veterans with stormbolter and chainsword

5 scouts
5 scouts
5 scouts

7 devastators (4 ML)

A Primaris has an extra wound so is more durable versus perils.

There are various options for who goes in the repulsors. Usually the characters and a 5 man squad in one, then either the aggressors or two 5 man squads in the other. If the other guy has loads of drops then all the hellblasters and aggressors can ride. Other times the hellblasters might start inside but immediately disembark on turn one, so I can load up aggressors or something and head forward.

So basically there’s no set format and I make it up as I go along.

jcd386 wrote:
I am curious what you guys are running lately, if you are even actually playing Marines.

Would it be out of place here ask people to list generally what you've been running, what parts you've found work, and what armies you've had a hard time against?

Ideally pure SM, but I'd be interested also in what you've been using as allies as well.

Seeing as the Necron codex doesn't actually suck I'll be getting my old Necrons from storage in Vermont (or at least the lot that's left). In the meantime this is what I've been using for Space Marines with moderate success:

Astral Claws Brigade (treating Astral Claws as Raven Guard)
x1 Lufgt Huron
x1 Lt.
. Power Fist, The Primarch's Wrath
x1 Damocles Command Rhino
. Hunter-Killer Missile

x5 Scouts
. Shotguns, Combi-Plasma
x5 Scouts
. Shotguns, Combi-Plasma
x5 Scouts
. Shotguns, Combi-Plasma
x5 Intercessors
. Aux Grenade Launcher
x5 Intercessors
. Aux Grenade Launcher
x5 Intercessors
. Aux Grenade Launcher

x4 Agressors
. Boltstorm Gauntlets and Fragstorm Launcher
x4 Aggressors
. Boltstorm Gauntlets and Fragstorm Launcher
x1 Whirlwind Scorpius
. Hunter-Killer Missile

x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun
. Twin Heavy Bolter

x1 Rapier Carrier
. Quad Launcher
x1 Rapier Carrier
. Quad Launcher
x1 Rapier Carrier
. Quad Launcher
x1 Thunderfire Cannon

12 CP total, 21 units, 50+ models

The basic plan is to hide the important stuff and just start plinking away. Apparently Space Marine artillery isn't allowed to be as good as Guard artillery but oh well. I gotta get those shots out.

Heavy Bolters and Scouts are set up as road blocks, with Intercessors in areas to prevent Deep Striking, and the Aggressors will use the Strike From The Shadows Strategem to hopefully get close and start firing at their meatshields as well or be more expensive road blocks. I make sure that Huron is able to hit something with his Big Guns ability, THEN I use Orbital Bombardment (which is kinda a terrible Strategem), THEN get the Damocles to use its own Orbital Strike + HK, then the Damocles rushes forward and does whatever as I don't care about it after that point. Then I basically point and click the artillery as necessary. The Thunderfire is more expensive and less powerful than the Quad Launchers, and is solely used for the Tremor Shells, which is nice against things like Custodes Bikers and Berserker Marines and whatever Daemons are probably cooking up (I hadn't faced Daemons as an army in a while).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Worth noting I'll probably toss the Scorpius as I don't find it earning points back very well.

Hey Mandragola, good to hear your feedback - I play pretty similar lists with my Primaris-centred force. I have a couple of questions for you...
1) No deepstrike? how does that flop out in terms of being able to react to your opponent, and grabbing objectives?
2) I have one repulsor and haven't brought myself to buy another, as it gets kabloomed in the first turn nearly every game I've played it. I like it, it's essentially a LR that can fall back and shoot, which is a huge deal in my book. But it is a piñata. Would you ever run just one?
3) What's the Deredeo doing in your list? How does it perform? I tend to run Mortis quad las.

1. Yeah some deep strike would be good honestly. I mess about with the list a lot and do sometimes include inceptors or reivers. This current version is about being defensively tough though.

2. People are often able to kill one of my vehicles in turn 1, which is why I have 3. I focus on killing their AT if possible.

3. The deredeo is an experiment I’m trying out for this event. I’ve also been using a las mortis contemptor, but have found that it (rather than the repulsors) gets killed a lot on turn one. The deredeo is a fair bit tougher and more accurate vs flyers. It also does a bit better vs flyrants and daemons, and is generally a bit more versatile than the contemptor.

Overall it’s not a perfect list. I’d consider dropping the ancient and a couple of aggressors in exchange for 5 grav chute reivers. Then I could put the 3 remaining characters and aggressors in one repulsor and have that deep strike unit. And I could stick a 5++ bubble on the deredeo with the spare points.

I might try that in future. Too late now - the lists have been sent in and my reivers aren’t painted!

I learned a thing almost on accident in my last game.

Chapter Master Aura + Lieutenant Aura + Lascannon Predators with Kill Shot = Discount Guilliman Aura Preds vs Vehicles.

Reroll all hits (if you don't move), Wound on 2, Reroll 1s. D6+1 damage for each lascannon. Managed to slag a Land Raider and Redemptor in a single turn (29 wounds!)

 SputnikDX wrote:
I learned a thing almost on accident in my last game.

Chapter Master Aura + Lieutenant Aura + Lascannon Predators with Kill Shot = Discount Guilliman Aura Preds vs Vehicles.

Reroll all hits (if you don't move), Wound on 2, Reroll 1s. D6+1 damage for each lascannon. Managed to slag a Land Raider and Redemptor in a single turn (29 wounds!)

How do you draw fire away from you predator ? You said without moving, so they had a LOS and opponent had a LOS on them too !
I thought of having 3 pred and a stormraven, 2 big armored units to make 1 survive

 godardc wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:
I learned a thing almost on accident in my last game.

Chapter Master Aura + Lieutenant Aura + Lascannon Predators with Kill Shot = Discount Guilliman Aura Preds vs Vehicles.

Reroll all hits (if you don't move), Wound on 2, Reroll 1s. D6+1 damage for each lascannon. Managed to slag a Land Raider and Redemptor in a single turn (29 wounds!)

How do you draw fire away from you predator ? You said without moving, so they had a LOS and opponent had a LOS on them too !
I thought of having 3 pred and a stormraven, 2 big armored units to make 1 survive

To be honest, yes that's the best approach. Either go big on armoured units or don't use them at all.

I'm interested that Sputnik is using predators though. Usually with ravenguard the approach is to take an all-infantry (or dreadnought) army, so everything is at -1 to hit. But I suppose the argument for taking tanks is that if the big guns are fired at tanks it leaves just small arms to kill the infantry, and that's incredibly difficult. Of course, ravenguard tanks are no worse than anyone else's, and you could argue they are the best at screening, so there's nothing wrong with it.

Chapter masters are interesting, if available. It's nice to get a guy who brings his own relics, as well as the rerolls. I've often thought about bringing Pedro, but he's expensive, can't ride in my repulsors and has an awful warlord trait. There's nothing stopping me making a different guy my warlord of course, but it doesn't feel quite right. I'm sure I'll give him a try one day.

Some of the chapter masters are fantastic though. To be honest Dante is probably top of the heap, especially since there are some really nice DA relic weapons you can give out to other characters. A DA lieutenant can have an excellent sword, making him far more dangerous than my primaris guy with just a normal power sword. Meanwhile Dante himself has so many relics he's run out of hands, and has to employ a servant to carry one of them.

 godardc wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:
I learned a thing almost on accident in my last game.

Chapter Master Aura + Lieutenant Aura + Lascannon Predators with Kill Shot = Discount Guilliman Aura Preds vs Vehicles.

Reroll all hits (if you don't move), Wound on 2, Reroll 1s. D6+1 damage for each lascannon. Managed to slag a Land Raider and Redemptor in a single turn (29 wounds!)

How do you draw fire away from you predator ? You said without moving, so they had a LOS and opponent had a LOS on them too !
I thought of having 3 pred and a stormraven, 2 big armored units to make 1 survive

Well, I don't. But I still get "Guilliman," since even Guilliman doesn't let you reroll after modifiers. The person I was playing against wasn't that great, so while I was out of range of his lascannons his land raider was right in my lane.

I keep getting drawn back to my Marines, but i can't decide between 2 options right now... Would be running Carcharodons with Tyberos as Raven Guard. It's semi fluffy but i want it to stand up to most lists...

Essentially, one list has 2 quad las relic contemptors and then 1 double fist relic contemptor in a stormraven. Also has 5 VV, 3 with double claws and 2 with double chainswords. Libby with jump pack might start in here as well, but prob not. Stormraven is kitted out with all the bolters and assault cannons.

2nd list has 2 quad las relic contemptors and then a 7 man VV, 2 lots of scout bikers and a 4 man plas inceptor unit instead.

2nd list has 15 drops, 1st has 11-12. Both have 2 units of Reivers, 2 7 man scout squads and a 6 man tac squad (would be 6 man tac vs 7 man scout, but, as they'd both be sat in ruins at the back of the table providing a final screen, i think tacts would be better with the 2+ save) Both also have a captain and a lieutenant as well.

Question is... Is the Stormraven too much of a liability? Especially if i don't go first? Both provide plenty of anti horde shots and attacks.

Other ideas are likely better, but i want to see how well this style might work overall.

Kdash wrote:
I keep getting drawn back to my Marines, but i can't decide between 2 options right now... Would be running Carcharodons with Tyberos as Raven Guard. It's semi fluffy but i want it to stand up to most lists...

Essentially, one list has 2 quad las relic contemptors and then 1 double fist relic contemptor in a stormraven. Also has 5 VV, 3 with double claws and 2 with double chainswords. Libby with jump pack might start in here as well, but prob not. Stormraven is kitted out with all the bolters and assault cannons.

2nd list has 2 quad las relic contemptors and then a 7 man VV, 2 lots of scout bikers and a 4 man plas inceptor unit instead.

2nd list has 15 drops, 1st has 11-12. Both have 2 units of Reivers, 2 7 man scout squads and a 6 man tac squad (would be 6 man tac vs 7 man scout, but, as they'd both be sat in ruins at the back of the table providing a final screen, i think tacts would be better with the 2+ save) Both also have a captain and a lieutenant as well.

Question is... Is the Stormraven too much of a liability? Especially if i don't go first? Both provide plenty of anti horde shots and attacks.

Other ideas are likely better, but i want to see how well this style might work overall.

Couple things:
1. Black Templars is both more "fluffy" and probably a better chapter tactic if you plan on getting choppy. You can take the Black Templar tactic and still take psykers. Unknown chapters can take any tactic that is deemed appropriate, and the Black Templar no psyker rule just means you can't take PSYKERS with the BLACK TEMPLAR keyword.

2. You can save a lot of points by making those quad las contemptors into Mortis contemptors instead of Relic contemptors. Same dakka, less tanky, but way less points.

3. Your best bet is just to try it out and see what works. You're not going to build a perfect list on math alone, especially when you don't have any jumping off points since Carcharodons aren't ran competitively. Also, get Tyberos if you don't have him. He's a beast.

@godardc The best way to keep the Preds alive is to run 4-5. It sucks but it works. Another option is to make them need to kill something else first. Like a Land Raider or Storm Raven with dangerous cargo, or some Dreads charging up the field to get into melee. Repulsors may actually be great at this.

@Mandragola Pedro is one of my favorites actually. His +1 attack pairs really well with Terminators, Assault Centurions, Honor Guard, or Melee Vets. I do admittedly run the Lieutenant or a Captain as my Warlord with him, but he can make a scary CC bomb in an otherwise lackluster CC army. Stormraven with him, Lieutenant, Apothecary, 3 Assault Centurions, and an Ironclad is downright scary if you can't shoot it down.

@Kdash I want to like the Storm Raven, but I find them to be too big of a magnet without other threats. It gets expensive to make other threats though. If you can keep it out of LOS it is definitely worth it but otherwise, I find they get dropped pretty quickly. That being said I prefer the second list. I like inceptors since their price cut, and scout bikes are pretty decent for what they are.

@SputnikDX The Mortis Relic Contemptors also hit on a 2+ rather than a 3+ on top of being more tanky. Is it worth it? Still not sure but it is more in favor of the contemptor.

 SputnikDX wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I keep getting drawn back to my Marines, but i can't decide between 2 options right now... Would be running Carcharodons with Tyberos as Raven Guard. It's semi fluffy but i want it to stand up to most lists...

Essentially, one list has 2 quad las relic contemptors and then 1 double fist relic contemptor in a stormraven. Also has 5 VV, 3 with double claws and 2 with double chainswords. Libby with jump pack might start in here as well, but prob not. Stormraven is kitted out with all the bolters and assault cannons.

2nd list has 2 quad las relic contemptors and then a 7 man VV, 2 lots of scout bikers and a 4 man plas inceptor unit instead.

2nd list has 15 drops, 1st has 11-12. Both have 2 units of Reivers, 2 7 man scout squads and a 6 man tac squad (would be 6 man tac vs 7 man scout, but, as they'd both be sat in ruins at the back of the table providing a final screen, i think tacts would be better with the 2+ save) Both also have a captain and a lieutenant as well.

Question is... Is the Stormraven too much of a liability? Especially if i don't go first? Both provide plenty of anti horde shots and attacks.

Other ideas are likely better, but i want to see how well this style might work overall.

Couple things:
1. Black Templars is both more "fluffy" and probably a better chapter tactic if you plan on getting choppy. You can take the Black Templar tactic and still take psykers. Unknown chapters can take any tactic that is deemed appropriate, and the Black Templar no psyker rule just means you can't take PSYKERS with the BLACK TEMPLAR keyword.

2. You can save a lot of points by making those quad las contemptors into Mortis contemptors instead of Relic contemptors. Same dakka, less tanky, but way less points.

3. Your best bet is just to try it out and see what works. You're not going to build a perfect list on math alone, especially when you don't have any jumping off points since Carcharodons aren't ran competitively. Also, get Tyberos if you don't have him. He's a beast.

As of Outer Dark the whole sucessor thing has pretty much been resolved, if not phsyically stated. If i was going to argue the fact i could go BA, but statagey wise i'd be leaning heavily on sfts if not using the stormraven.

Changing to Motis would save me 60 points in total. Would drop in save and wounds along with the fnp. For the cost of another scout squad not sure it offers me much

Yeah, Carcharodons are all but confirmed to be Raven Guard, so I'd say use them like that and get used to the idea.

It isn't a bad idea by any means though. Strike From The Shadows is fluffy for them to am extent, and you want everything super close anyway to get the bonus from Tyberos.

Also keep in mind Tyberos is one of the few HQ units we have with enough killing power to gain his points back. Don't be afraid to charge him into something larger than himself on occasion.

 Captain Garius wrote:
@godardc The best way to keep the Preds alive is to run 4-5. It sucks but it works. Another option is to make them need to kill something else first. Like a Land Raider or Storm Raven with dangerous cargo, or some Dreads charging up the field to get into melee. Repulsors may actually be great at this.

@Mandragola Pedro is one of my favorites actually. His +1 attack pairs really well with Terminators, Assault Centurions, Honor Guard, or Melee Vets. I do admittedly run the Lieutenant or a Captain as my Warlord with him, but he can make a scary CC bomb in an otherwise lackluster CC army. Stormraven with him, Lieutenant, Apothecary, 3 Assault Centurions, and an Ironclad is downright scary if you can't shoot it down.

@Kdash I want to like the Storm Raven, but I find them to be too big of a magnet without other threats. It gets expensive to make other threats though. If you can keep it out of LOS it is definitely worth it but otherwise, I find they get dropped pretty quickly. That being said I prefer the second list. I like inceptors since their price cut, and scout bikes are pretty decent for what they are.

@SputnikDX The Mortis Relic Contemptors also hit on a 2+ rather than a 3+ on top of being more tanky. Is it worth it? Still not sure but it is more in favor of the contemptor.

There's a lot of dreadnoughts:
Dreadnoughts, Mortis Dreadnoughts, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts hit on 3+
Venerable Dreadnoughts, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Mortis Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and all Relic Dreadnoughts hit on 2+

You don't need to go Relic Contemptor if he's just gonna be doing some dakka. The only thing you'll miss out on is some extra wounds, 2+ armor, FNP, and you'll be taking a Heavy Support slot instead of an Elite slot.

Company veterans with chainswords and stormbolters seem rather killy, but can quickly become expensive (almost 100pts for 5 guys). How do you play them ? I think of playing 15 of them, making the bulk of my ùain combat force, supported with some auras rerolls. They could even kill a rhino or preda without any heavy weapon.
But I am afraid that would be too expensive ?

Actually I think Command Squads might be a perfect fit for that new drill transport FW just released.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, Carcharodons are all but confirmed to be Raven Guard, so I'd say use them like that and get used to the idea.

It isn't a bad idea by any means though. Strike From The Shadows is fluffy for them to am extent, and you want everything super close anyway to get the bonus from Tyberos.

Also keep in mind Tyberos is one of the few HQ units we have with enough killing power to gain his points back. Don't be afraid to charge him into something larger than himself on occasion.

Well, in the list with the Stormraven, it'd cost 3 CP in Strike from the Shadows, Tyberos and 2 units of Reviers,(if i need null zone turn 1, then 4 CP) but list 2 means 5CP spent. Now, to me that is fine as it'd leave me with 3CP spare for the rest of the game, and as i'm already re-rolling most things it wouldn't really have too much of an impact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
@godardc The best way to keep the Preds alive is to run 4-5. It sucks but it works. Another option is to make them need to kill something else first. Like a Land Raider or Storm Raven with dangerous cargo, or some Dreads charging up the field to get into melee. Repulsors may actually be great at this.

@Mandragola Pedro is one of my favorites actually. His +1 attack pairs really well with Terminators, Assault Centurions, Honor Guard, or Melee Vets. I do admittedly run the Lieutenant or a Captain as my Warlord with him, but he can make a scary CC bomb in an otherwise lackluster CC army. Stormraven with him, Lieutenant, Apothecary, 3 Assault Centurions, and an Ironclad is downright scary if you can't shoot it down.

@Kdash I want to like the Storm Raven, but I find them to be too big of a magnet without other threats. It gets expensive to make other threats though. If you can keep it out of LOS it is definitely worth it but otherwise, I find they get dropped pretty quickly. That being said I prefer the second list. I like inceptors since their price cut, and scout bikes are pretty decent for what they are.

@SputnikDX The Mortis Relic Contemptors also hit on a 2+ rather than a 3+ on top of being more tanky. Is it worth it? Still not sure but it is more in favor of the contemptor.

There's a lot of dreadnoughts:
Dreadnoughts, Mortis Dreadnoughts, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts hit on 3+
Venerable Dreadnoughts, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Mortis Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and all Relic Dreadnoughts hit on 2+

You don't need to go Relic Contemptor if he's just gonna be doing some dakka. The only thing you'll miss out on is some extra wounds, 2+ armor, FNP, and you'll be taking a Heavy Support slot instead of an Elite slot.

Is the 29 points per Dreadnought that big of an impact though/is the extra 29 points "worth it"? In one list it essentially means the stormraven changes its bolters for missiles and the other list it amounts to 2-4 more MEQ bodies. The heavy vs Elite slot doesn't really bother me that much, as i have enough "normal elites" to meet the "relic" tax.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For reference, below are the 2 lists i'm looking at. Only restriction is that you can't have more than 1 of each detachment type.

List 1 - 1999 pts, 7CP




List 2 2000 pts, 8CP

I think I like the second list quite a lot better. But I’m not a fan of your battalion. I’d trim away the spare guys do as to turn the tacticals and maybe one of the scout squads into intercessors. You’d get more staying power and a bit more offence too that way.

What are people’s thoughts on the termite? It looks like a good ride for assault centurions. Only thing is it fails to explain when they get out - so presumably they don’t until the start of the following turn - or when the thing explodes.

If you can’t get out when it turns up then the thing’s a gimmick really. Awesome model though.

Did they forget to include Centurions on the list of things they can't transport?

I'm liking that idea instead of Command Squads?

Mandragola wrote:
I think I like the second list quite a lot better. But I’m not a fan of your battalion. I’d trim away the spare guys do as to turn the tacticals and maybe one of the scout squads into intercessors. You’d get more staying power and a bit more offence too that way.

What are people’s thoughts on the termite? It looks like a good ride for assault centurions. Only thing is it fails to explain when they get out - so presumably they don’t until the start of the following turn - or when the thing explodes.

If you can’t get out when it turns up then the thing’s a gimmick really. Awesome model though.

The battalion is a bit... different i admit, but my thought process is like this -

the 2 scout squads are simply there to take board control in deployment. 5 man squads are ok at this, but having 2 extra models per squad gives me an extra ~6" of control. Everything kinda revolves around dropping in a lot of squads with Strike from the Shadows, so i'm going to need the control and space. The 6 man tac squad - i simply had the points for a 6th model. Doesn't really do much, but, it is just a final line of defence for the Contemptors. I could go for scouts - but the tacs have more staying power, just as the Intercessors have more over the tacs. Maybe i should find 10 points somewhere and upgrade them (but part of me also wants at least 1 squads in MKV armour for fluff bunny purposes. But, i guess it's kinda the right choice! Drop 1 scout, add in 5 Intercessors with a Grenade Launcher, and back at 2k)

Pistols and Knives for the Scouts, simply because they'll be in Tyberos' +1 strength bubble and already up the table. Just another annoying threat to have to be removed.
Leiutenant babysits the dreads, and the Librarian is a mobile null zone bunker. I'd prob drop the Teeth of Terror and run Armour Indomidus on the Libby instead, and then just pay the CP for ToT if i feel like i need it, as the Captain will prob be mostly hovering around 12" away most of the time anyway.

As for the Termite - i'm not sure right now. It is essentially a 106 point Drop Pod that causes 1 mortal wound when it arrives to every enemy unit in 12". In most games i reckon you'll only get 1 or 2 wounds tops - especially once your opponent knows its restrictions. Carrying 12 is ok, but, where it differs from the Drop Pod, is that it looks like you don't disembark straight away, so it essentially means it just turns into a dead weight first turn that deals a couple of mortal wounds and shoots 2 storm bolters. It has 10 wounds, so it degrades and while it is T8, it's still going to get popped quickly, especially if the unit inside is scary, or something like 216 points of storm bolter wielding veterans. A 6" move as well, means that certain armies (Dark Eldar most of all) can just ignore it and move away from it, waiting for you to disembark the units inside.

The other option is to take them on mass, and use their mortal wounds to remove small screening units - but, at that point you could just spam Librarians and smite, as you'll be getting D3 per smite every turn instead of just an initial 1 or 2. (jump pack libby with staff and storm bolter is 122 points)

It is also worth noting, that this is a Space Marine only transport as well, which Chaos also get to use, but with extra special rules - because Chaos. In fact, it might be better for Chaos and Marines, simply because it can transport 12 Cultists, opening up a couple more of the "spam" options. I still don't think we'll see it anywhere near events though.
Rules



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did they forget to include Centurions on the list of things they can't transport?

I'm liking that idea instead of Command Squads?

Good point, but, are you really going to spend 300-400+ points on a min squad of Centurions and this transport? Sure, it can hold 12 Centurions atm, but that's then well over 50% of your 2000 points and offers you nothing beyond a turn 2 horde clearing gimmick. On top of that, chances are you won't get the Centurions into combat in your next turn either, unless you're playing against a hard dedicated immovable castle army. You'd prob be looking at an 8" change, if not more, depending on how the screen was setup and which model gets removed from the mortal wound. (also without taking advancing into account for the screen)

Hello

Not a lot of opinions of the terminators or centurions? (very sorry if I failed using the ´search´ -ability...)

Am I the only one who thinks centurions are waay too costly for what they do? No near the power of obliterators.

Terminators (assault and normal) also feel pretty pricey, for the survivability they bring or have I missed something?

Nope your correct, its just earlier in the 86 pages, both are overcosted and underperforming. As is much of the vanilla marine codex, without a few gimmick builds.

Trickster12 wrote:
Hello

Not a lot of opinions of the terminators or centurions? (very sorry if I failed using the ´search´ -ability...)

Am I the only one who thinks centurions are waay too costly for what they do? No near the power of obliterators.

Terminators (assault and normal) also feel pretty pricey, for the survivability they bring or have I missed something?

No one really talks about either unit because they're both pretty weak. You're right about them costing too much for what they do.

I don't think Assault Centurions are terribly priced but they aren't great either. The Devastator variant is paying for the sins of the last two editions, but Terminators don't have the same excuse.

Trickster12 wrote:
Hello

Not a lot of opinions of the terminators or centurions? (very sorry if I failed using the ´search´ -ability...)

Am I the only one who thinks centurions are waay too costly for what they do? No near the power of obliterators.

Terminators (assault and normal) also feel pretty pricey, for the survivability they bring or have I missed something?

You're in the same boat as everyone. Terminators and to a smaller extent Centurions right now simply don't justify their costs. Centurions - at the very least - can do some damage. Vanilla terminators typically do heck-all and Assault terminators, while killy, are really slow and hard to get into melee.

Now that most of the main faction codexes are out, my space marine army hasn't hit a table in months. I've been playing mechanicus because marines just simply don't compete at all. I don't view a frustrating uphill climb as a fun use of my time these days.

Are you going to redesign your list?

 Primark G wrote:
Are you going to redesign your list?

I designed a list as competitive as I could to deal with topping lists and I'm still doing meh, whereas at least with CSM I have more tools available. Allies doesn't cut it as, at that point, I can get rid of almost all Space Marines.

I've been redesigning my lists constantly. Even taking out things that I previously thought were must-takes like Helbrecht. The only time I have ever succeeded was using Blood Angel rules against an index Dark Eldar army. My Templars have literally not won a single game since Chapter Approved came out.

I have primaris stuff, decent amount of crusader bodies, jump troops, terminators, a leviathan dread, quad mortars, bikers, scouts, lascannons, razorbacks. The only things I really don't have are predators, the AA tanks, land speeders, vindicators, and Centurions. And some of the forgeworld stuff like Sicaran tanks.

Why bring a predator when a leman russ fires twice? Or an Onager Dunecrawler D3 times with min 3 damage on a Neutron Laser?

Why bring Space Marines when my Skitarii infantry can gain a 3+ through the use of a special ability that I can easily manipulate through use of characters and stratagems? And they have a 6+ invuln. And they have arguably better guns. The only thing marines really have over them is T4 and Ld 8. Both of which often just do not matter.

Why bring any kind of Space Marine close combat unit, when I literally have better close combat units in the Adeptus Mechanicus? Have you seen the horrid things that a unit of 10 electro priests do to just about anything with all of those mortal wounds? The speed and power of Dragoons, the sheer weight of attacks of Sicarian Infiltrators with Taser goads, especially when buffed with the +1 to hit stratagem?

It's a sad state of affairs now that my local meta has been doing so much power gaming lately. I want to go back to the index days when everything was experimental and people ran anything.

/rant

Yeah toughness 4 is pretty worthless for what you pay for it when compared to T3. You take 33% less damage from S3, 25% less from S4, S5 is the same, 20% more from S6/7, and S8+ is the same. Poison weapons are also the same.

There is a reason that 9 point sisters are so much better value than 13 point Marines. GW thinks +1 T, S, and WS is worth 4 points, and it simply isn't.

So I took my army to the tournament yesterday. 4 games is a lot in a day! It was ITC format, using a maelstrom and an eternal war mission at once, with the players sharing 20 tournament points depending on the margin of victory.

Game one was a bit of a disaster. Up against IG with a brigade and a shadowsword, and he won the roll off for first turn. So the shadowsword killed both my repulsors before my captain could slap it down and I ended up losing 13:7. It could have been a lot worse.

Game 2 was against another brigade, this time of orks. 6 big blobs, 45 stormboyz, assorted characters and cannons to fill out slots. This went a lot better as I got first turn and killed his big 25 man stormboy unit - and his warboss sheltered behind. Things tipped back a bit after he got to do da jump to charge 30 boyz I’m on his turn, trapping my aggressors with a consolidation move. But my repulsors were having fun mowing down the orks following behind, which were hampered by terrain into an 18” gap. Those that got through were smashed in combat. We only got to play 3 turns, though by that time well over half of the orks were dead. I won 13:7, though it would have been a lot more after another turn.

His last move was to have one weirdboy use da jump to send 30 boys to his other weirdboy, to do a smite on my captain. And he did 6 mortal wounds, killing him outright! That was certainly orky.

Game 3 was against a nurgle daemon/soup mix. 56 plaguebearers, 3 blight haulers, a DP, epidemics and assorted other characters, 2x3 obliterators with two trees. I went first and blew up a hauler, but didn’t do much to the plaguebearers. Things improved when he charged my aggressors with the PBs and daemon Prince - they shot 3 wounds off the prince with overwatch, the plaguebearers killed one, then I interrupted and killed the DP. Good times! His obliterators whiffed mostly, and again I was gaining control of the board, but the time ran out. He was able to snaffle some late objectives, making it a very narrow win for me. Again I’d have won by more if we’d continued, with the obliterators and one hauler the only remaining threats. I had very few casualties in this game and only gave up 2 units to the tally.

The final game was also against nurgle, but a totally different list. He had morty, typhus, a couple of units of plague marines and a forgeworld Walker thing in a dreadclaw, with guns that caused mortal wounds. Bit weird. He didn’t have many drops so I had to pile all my characters into repulsors, which worked to get me first turn. I shot Morty dead, which was nice, then shot most of his other stuff dead too. Finished with the day’s biggest win, by 15 vps.

So I learned a few things about my list, and other stuff:

Shadowswords are awesome, and kryptonite to me. I’d have had a good chance with first turn, l think, but without it that was awful.

Aggressors are a mixed bag. They actually did all right in most games. Interrupting to kill the DP was awesome. Oddly they weren’t that good against the orks, as going within 18” of one unit meant being at risk from others. Those 30 man units were able to consolidate into them after charging Something else.

On the other hand, the repulsors were awesome against the orks and daemons, and very good against the plague marines. Neither of them suffered much damage in either game and they massacred stuff all round. Having them charge those big blobs to tie them up is extremely useful.

The deredeo actually did pretty well. It could always shoot at something useful, so where a las mortis would have been pretty weak against the orks it was shooting 10 of them dead per turn. The 36” range on its anvillus autocannons (which is really odd) was sometimes a problem. Overall I’d rate it as fine but not a must-have. If I’d take the 5++ bubble though it might have helped against the shadowsword... a little.

The hellblasters were great, especially with a captain and librarian around. They were perfectly happy to charge in against orks and plaguebearers too, which made the difference between a few guys surviving to pin me and all of them being dead.

The ancient was ok. It was the first time I’d used him. Overall I’d say he’s a “nice to have”. If I have the points, I’ll take him again.

Not too sure about the librarian, if it came down to him vs the lieutenant. He never got null zone off and might of heroes never made much difference.

Lacking anything fast or deep striking was a pain, especially in maelstrom. It also meant opponents didn’t have to protect back-line units. I need to fix that.

Overall I think that a fire raptor would be the biggest single improvement I could take. And I’ll also look at whether I can fit in some reivers, inceptors or something.

Just realized something depressing. I know I go on a rant about Berzerkers compared to our melee units a lot, but this is just...

20 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans (assuming 4 squads of 5 to maximize Sergeants, so best-case scenario) being buffed by Helbrecht output 16.6 dead MEQ on the charge (84*(8/9)*(2/3)*(1/3)).

10 World Eaters Khorne Berzerzerkers in an axe/chainsword configuration do 16.5 dead MEQ on the charge (61*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/2)+20*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/3)).

180 points of Khorne Berzerkers (assuming Icon, but come on, of course you have one) performs roughly on-par with 320 points of Vanguard Veterans supported by a 170-point buff unit when we're stacking the odds in favour of the Vanguard Veterans. Sure, if Helbrecht gets to swing as well we pull ahead slightly of the Berzerkers, but come on.

There's no amout of "adapting" or "reconstructing my list" that's going to change that this is absolutely ludicrous. I don't mind Khorne Berzerkers being absolute monsters in melee (they SHOULD be, they're finally where they should always have been IMO), but they also shouldn't be more than twice as good as something for the same price.

Sure, I could buy Hellblasters and Aggressors and go shooting-heavy, but:

A) I'd essentially have to buy a completely new army. I'd much rather spend that time and effort just expanding my Khorne army instead. You know, the one that doesn't have rules written by an inept potato.

B) Even if we disregard A, why on Earth would I play my hypothetical new Primaris marines as Black Templars? Literally any other Chapter that isn't White Scars would be better. No amount of "adapting" is going to change that either.

Extra shout-out to the people who moaned and whined about how Black Templars should just be folded into the Vanilla Codex and how it "wouldn't be so bad" because "at least you'd have access to the same stuff as Vanilla marines have!" back in 5th edition. Thanks chaps. Well done.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's no amout of "adapting" or "reconstructing my list" that's going to change that this is absolutely ludicrous. I don't mind Khorne Berzerkers being absolute monsters in melee (they SHOULD be, they're finally where they should always have been IMO), but they also shouldn't be more than twice as good as something for the same price.

And now you realize the crux of the issue;

GW either doesn't know how to, or doesn't care to, do math.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just realized something depressing. I know I go on a rant about Berzerkers compared to our melee units a lot, but this is just...

20 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans (assuming 4 squads of 5 to maximize Sergeants, so best-case scenario) being buffed by Helbrecht output 16.6 dead MEQ on the charge (84*(8/9)*(2/3)*(1/3)).

10 World Eaters Khorne Berzerzerkers in an axe/chainsword configuration do 16.5 dead MEQ on the charge (61*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/2)+20*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/3)).

180 points of Khorne Berzerkers (assuming Icon, but come on, of course you have one) performs roughly on-par with 320 points of Vanguard Veterans supported by a 170-point buff unit when we're stacking the odds in favour of the Vanguard Veterans. Sure, if Helbrecht gets to swing as well we pull ahead slightly of the Berzerkers, but come on.

There's no amout of "adapting" or "reconstructing my list" that's going to change that this is absolutely ludicrous. I don't mind Khorne Berzerkers being absolute monsters in melee (they SHOULD be, they're finally where they should always have been IMO), but they also shouldn't be more than twice as good as something for the same price.

Sure, I could buy Hellblasters and Aggressors and go shooting-heavy, but:

A) I'd essentially have to buy a completely new army. I'd much rather spend that time and effort just expanding my Khorne army instead. You know, the one that doesn't have rules written by an inept potato.

B) Even if we disregard A, why on Earth would I play my hypothetical new Primaris marines as Black Templars? Literally any other Chapter that isn't White Scars would be better. No amount of "adapting" is going to change that either.

Extra shout-out to the people who moaned and whined about how Black Templars should just be folded into the Vanilla Codex and how it "wouldn't be so bad" because "at least you'd have access to the same stuff as Vanilla marines have!" back in 5th edition. Thanks chaps. Well done.

I know the vanilla codex sucks, but it isn't like the original Black Templars were any good either.

Of course I'm the person that wanted them rolled in with Blood and Dark Angels too, though that's an issue when, out of the three, the more deviating chapter gets rolled in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I know the vanilla codex sucks, but it isn't like the original Black Templars were any good either.

You say that, but it wasn't actually that much worse once the FAQ hit in 5th, just different.

And at least the melee units were better than those of a Chapter known for their tactical flexibility...

So, I made a third and last try at a list able ton manage hords of cheap infantry, trying new models (heavy bolters devastator, that are quite cheap in fact !). Again, 9 cp, but I don't have the thunderfire to slow the genestealers, and I don't think I can fight as good as with my previous list against a no hords list. Chronus is here because he is a cheap 4th HQ:



And an alternative in which the razorbacks and devastators switch their role:

I think I prefer this one ?

Oh boy, lots to respond to. Here comes the Space Marine Defense Force or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Emperor.

 ultimentra wrote:
Why bring a predator when a leman russ fires twice? Or an Onager Dunecrawler D3 times with min 3 damage on a Neutron Laser?

1. AdMech has the best vehicles. I think this is just something we're going to have to live with within the fluff.
2. Leman Russ is tougher, but also has a more limited range. Predators can get 4 lascannons whereas Russ's can only get 1, and that lascannon hits on 4s. It can't even shoot it twice, since Grinding Advance only lets it shoot the turret weapon twice. You can also get access to Space Marine stratagems like Killshot (amazing) and of course you won't be able to use your captain to help your dunecrawler reroll.

2. Leman Russ is tougher, but also has a more limited range. Predators can get 4 lascannons whereas Russ's can only get 1, and that lascannon hits on 4s. It can't even shoot it twice, since Grinding Advance only lets it shoot the turret weapon twice. You can also get access to Space Marine stratagems like Killshot (amazing) and of course you won't be able to use your captain to help your dunecrawler reroll.

4 Lascannons is not at all amazing when lots of big things are running around with invuln saves these days. Including Dunecrawlers. Yeah killshot is cool, but you need all 3 predators to do it. If your opponent can kill one of them turn one, your strategy is dead. Predators die easily. Tech Priest Dominus has a 6'' re roll 1s aura. Lets not even talk about Cawl at this point.

Again, one of the issues is range. 24" vs 18", even if you're only getting one shot. Also, anything that ignores cover is going to rip through your shroudpsalm right into your squishy 3T 4+ body, and marines in cover manage to enjoy a 2+ armor save, while still managing to hold on to heavy weapons. I doubt you'll ever see a Dunecrawler successfully utilize cover.

It's 18'' on an assault 3 weapon. Rangers have a 30'' Rapid Fire 1 weapon that is -1 ap on a 6 to wound. The Rad Carbine causes 2 wounds on a 6. Strictly better than any bolter. The Plasma Caliver is also superior to the Plasma Gun. The only thing Skitarii lack is a flamer type weapon that they make up for with pure weight of fire. Each guy firing 3 shots puts out a lot firepower, you have to see it to believe it.

Ignores cover is not at all common in 8th edition. The only races that have wide access to it are Mechanicus, Imperial Fists, and Iron Warriors.

Marines in cover? Ignore them because they aren't going to do anything but sit there and be expensive for what they're doing. Which is nothing. They have inferior firepower. They have inferior CC skill. They are inferior in every way right now.

What does a Dunecrawler utilizing cover have anything to do with this? They can count as being in cover with Shroudpsalm, and most heavy weaponry shooting at them will go straight to the 5+ invuln anyways. It doesn't matter.

Mobility. Electropriests are nothing but bolter fodder since they can't take a transport, and even if you use a stratagem to deep strike them they can't reroll charges, so more often than not they're just going to be shot to gak. Dragoons are powerful, yes, but expensive, and not as tanky as people give them credit for, especially vs Marines who will be hitting them on 4s. Shoot them with Autocannons (especially Predator Autocannons) or assault cannons. They also have no innate defense against heavy hitters in melee that manage to successfully charge them. Thunder Hammers will wipe Dragoons off the board.

Electropriests can use Clandestine Infiltration, and if you get first turn whatever you charge will melt, and all the sudden they now have a 3+ invuln save and 5+ to ignore damage. No, they actually are not bolter fodder and you have obviously either never played Mechanicus or never played against a Mechanicus player who knows what they're doing. Outside Stygies VIII they can be used as a counter-charge unit for when you know you are going to be fighting a melee army.

What the hell? Dragoons are not at all expensive! They're 68 points! And if you're taking Stygies VIII they're -2 to hit outside 12''. Also, I would love to see some Terminators or other thunder hammer bearers go up against a large squad of Dragoons and see how it works out. Hey guess what, not only am I cheaper and faster than any thunder hammer terminator, and only slightly less than a Jump Pack marine with one, but guess what? I wound you on 2s, I insta kill terminators because I cause two damage, and my 3 attacks can easily turn into a hell of a lot more with the Taser rule and a stratagem giving a squadron of Dragoons +2 to hit. So no, your thunder hammer can sit down. Because guess what, unless you're talking about a sergeant or a captain, the max attacks you're getting out of that Thunder Hammer is 2. Which only one of those are likely to hit because you take -1, and then you still have to wound a Dragoon on 3. And guess what else, I still get a 6+ invuln save against it! How's that feel? Not very good!

Well, as you say Khorne Berzerkers should be the kings of melee, and they are, but you're missing a few details, both about the zerks and about the Vanguard.

1. Vanguard have access to special weapons. Yes, you're paying for them, but it gives them the opportunity to be a far more specialized unit and fill a different role that zerks can't.
2. Vanguard have access to jump packs. This allows them to deep strike and move insanely fast, able to jump from one target to the next, charge directly over screens to tie up tanks, and fall back and shoot their widdle pistols. Fall back and shoot isn't that great admittedly, but I have done some damage after falling back from something to tough for them to chew. They can also jump straight over terrain, so they have a safer approach. Deep strike them behind a wall, then move them in and charge. I very rarely lose a single model before getting into melee with my Veterans, whereas simply fielding Zerks runs the risk of them just getting shot to death, even if they take a Rhino.
3. Zerks second attack is at the very end of the fight phase. So it goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, get fought, lose models, then fight again. So your math isn't accounting for any models lost.

Yes Zerks in melee are a better unit, but if you spend your time thinking about what your army can't do you're never going to find out what it can.

Which in this case, what the army can do is, under the currently rules, be a somewhat effective gunline under Guilliman. Yes, we all get to pay the Guilliman tax. Marines are supposed to be the jack of trades of master none. Well this jack can't do jack gak right now. The Space Marines aren't resilient, they can't melee their way out of a paper bag, they don't have the same tactical options of the other factions in regards to Stratagems that actually have decent game impact, and for some odd reason GW decided that it would be far too powerful to allow our Chapter Tactics to apply to our vehicles, yet its perfectly fine for LITERALLY EVERY OTHER FACTION.

Just. No. Don't try to tell me that Marines are fine. They are very clearly not. The vast consensus is that vanilla marines are among the least powerful armies in the game right now in just about any circle that isn't focused on narrative play. Marine players that are having to deal with an optimized meta, at least marines of the Black and White variety, are struggling currently. Don't try to tell me that this is simply not the case because you're just straight up wrong.

 SputnikDX wrote:


1. Vanguard have access to special weapons. Yes, you're paying for them, but it gives them the opportunity to be a far more specialized unit and fill a different role that zerks can't.

That's not actually true. The Khorne Berzerkers outperform special weapon-wielding Vanguard Veterans as well. Running the same assumption as in my previous post except the Vanguard Veterans run chainsword/power sword instead of double chainsword, they kill a tad over 25 MEQ. It's well ahead of the ~15.5 of the Khorne Berzerkers, but then it's also 610 points to the Khorne Berzerkers' 180. You could get another 20 Khorne Berzerkers and still have points left over. The better AP from special weapons don't outweigh the fact that the Berzerkers have 102857102974 attacks. Berzerkers outfight their points in Vanguard Veterans against anything regardless of the setup of the Vanguard Veterans barring extreme edge cases like TH Vanguard Veterans charging T8 targets (and paying 30 PPM for a Marine body with a Thunder Hammer is a good way to lose the game).

It gets even worse against GEQ since the Berzerkers can benefit from the S6 of their Chainaxes.

 SputnikDX wrote:


2. Vanguard have access to jump packs. This allows them to deep strike and move insanely fast, able to jump from one target to the next, charge directly over screens to tie up tanks, and fall back and shoot their widdle pistols. Fall back and shoot isn't that great admittedly, but I have done some damage after falling back from something to tough for them to chew. They can also jump straight over terrain, so they have a safer approach. Deep strike them behind a wall, then move them in and charge. I very rarely lose a single model before getting into melee with my Veterans, whereas simply fielding Zerks runs the risk of them just getting shot to death, even if they take a Rhino.

If you're willing to drop 2 attacks on the charge you can just infiltrate Berzerkers. There's a reason why Alpha Legion Berzerkers have made a splash on the tournament scene and Vanguard Veterans haven't. Even without running them as Alpha Legion you could just get a Kharybdis or the new drill thingamabob to Deep Strike the Berzerkers. True, it's more expensive, but the Berzerkers still win in damage output regardless.

 SputnikDX wrote:

3. Zerks second attack is at the very end of the fight phase. So it goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, get fought, lose models, then fight again. So your math isn't accounting for any models lost.

They don't fight at the very end of the Fight phase; that's the stratagem. Berzerkers have nothing saying they fight again at the end of the Fight phase.

So it actually goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, fight again and then lose nothing because whatever was in their way is deader than a sack of dead mice, which is dead.

This isn't me just griping over how other armies get cooler stuff than me; I play Khorne as well, I know how much better Berzerkers are.

 ultimentra wrote:
4 Lascannons is not at all amazing when lots of big things are running around with invuln saves these days. Including Dunecrawlers. Yeah killshot is cool, but you need all 3 predators to do it. If your opponent can kill one of them turn one, your strategy is dead. Predators die easily. Tech Priest Dominus has a 6'' re roll 1s aura. Lets not even talk about Cawl at this point.

If 4 lascannons aren't amazing just because of Invuln than neither are Russes or Neutron Lasers. Until you find a vehicle that can pierce invuln at 48", you can't discount Lascannons because of invul saves without discounting everything else as well. And Killshot is very workable: just deploy your Predators behind LoS/outside of range of enemy big guns, then on your turn move them into range and activate it. Even hitting on 4s you're likely to slag whatever could have shot you. And bringing up the Captain aura is more to bring up your thought about allies.

 ultimentra wrote:
It's 18'' on an assault 3 weapon. Rangers have a 30'' Rapid Fire 1 weapon that is -1 ap on a 6 to wound. The Rad Carbine causes 2 wounds on a 6. Strictly better than any bolter. The Plasma Caliver is also superior to the Plasma Gun. The only thing Skitarii lack is a flamer type weapon that they make up for with pure weight of fire. Each guy firing 3 shots puts out a lot firepower, you have to see it to believe it.

18" isn't very good on a unit that's supposed to be on top of objectives, since they can't really do anything against someone unless they get close to them, and they get shredded by heavy bolters. Even stray bolter fire from 24" will take out a couple of them. And if you're complaining about Rangers, then just take Intercessors. Now you have a better weapon than a Galvanic rifle on a better model.

Plasma Calivers are really good. I'm also not here saying that AdMech is a bad army, but they have weaknesses that Space Marines can exploit.

 ultimentra wrote:
Ignores cover is not at all common in 8th edition. The only races that have wide access to it are Mechanicus, Imperial Fists, and Iron Warriors.

Marines in cover? Ignore them because they aren't going to do anything but sit there and be expensive for what they're doing. Which is nothing. They have inferior firepower. They have inferior CC skill. They are inferior in every way right now.

Ignore them? They're on an objective, getting points, and winning games. You can ignore them if you want, but they'll just be there holding on shooting at everyone unfortunate enough to footslog across the board.

 ultimentra wrote:
What does a Dunecrawler utilizing cover have anything to do with this? They can count as being in cover with Shroudpsalm, and most heavy weaponry shooting at them will go straight to the 5+ invuln anyways. It doesn't matter.

You missed my last point about Tacs holding heavy weapons in cover. Lascannons with 4 ablative wounds and 2+ armor are pretty good and pesky enough to deal with.

 ultimentra wrote:
Electropriests can use Clandestine Infiltration, and if you get first turn whatever you charge will melt, and all the sudden they now have a 3+ invuln save and 5+ to ignore damage. No, they actually are not bolter fodder and you have obviously either never played Mechanicus or never played against a Mechanicus player who knows what they're doing. Outside Stygies VIII they can be used as a counter-charge unit for when you know you are going to be fighting a melee army.

They can. If Admech gets turn one and uses that stratagem it's going to be a tricky game. If you're using old rules though, Admech will almost never get turn 1 since they can't minimize their drops with transports. If you're using ITC rules, you're going to have a tougher time, but you can play against that by having a forward screen of Scouts to keep Electropriests far, far away from your main force. And then Null Zone turns them into paper, even if they've leeched life.

If you're a melee army, you stay away from electro-priests. Again, they have 6" move, 3 toughness, and demon saves. Walk away from them and shoot them.

 ultimentra wrote:
What the hell? Dragoons are not at all expensive! They're 68 points! And if you're taking Stygies VIII they're -2 to hit outside 12''. Also, I would love to see some Terminators or other thunder hammer bearers go up against a large squad of Dragoons and see how it works out. Hey guess what, not only am I cheaper and faster than any thunder hammer terminator, and only slightly less than a Jump Pack marine with one, but guess what? I wound you on 2s, I insta kill terminators because I cause two damage, and my 3 attacks can easily turn into a hell of a lot more with the Taser rule and a stratagem giving a squadron of Dragoons +2 to hit. So no, your thunder hammer can sit down. Because guess what, unless you're talking about a sergeant or a captain, the max attacks you're getting out of that Thunder Hammer is 2. Which only one of those are likely to hit because you take -1, and then you still have to wound a Dragoon on 3. And guess what else, I still get a 6+ invuln save against it! How's that feel? Not very good!

According to Mathhammer, a 5 man TH/SS Veteran Squad with Chapter Master rerolls for Shrike or Helbrecht deals 12 wounds to Dragoons 63% of the time. At that point the dragoon player is risking losing a 68 point model to morale if you didn't just entirely wipe the squad to begin with. 195 points just did 272 points worth of damage. I've done it before and it was awesome.

Positioning, positioning, positioning. Either don't let them charge you, or if that fails, don't let them charge anything important.

 ultimentra wrote:
Which in this case, what the army can do is, under the currently rules, be a somewhat effective gunline under Guilliman. Yes, we all get to pay the Guilliman tax. Marines are supposed to be the jack of trades of master none. Well this jack can't do jack gak right now. The Space Marines aren't resilient, they can't melee their way out of a paper bag, they don't have the same tactical options of the other factions in regards to Stratagems that actually have decent game impact, and for some odd reason GW decided that it would be far too powerful to allow our Chapter Tactics to apply to our vehicles, yet its perfectly fine for LITERALLY EVERY OTHER FACTION.

Just. No. Don't try to tell me that Marines are fine. They are very clearly not. The vast consensus is that vanilla marines are among the least powerful armies in the game right now in just about any circle that isn't focused on narrative play. Marine players that are having to deal with an optimized meta, at least marines of the Black and White variety, are struggling currently. Don't try to tell me that this is simply not the case because you're just straight up wrong.

What the army can do and is designed to do is to be semi-effective in all aspects. Marines, to me, I find to be greater than the sum of their parts. I can take the same list and play it differently every time depending on who I'm fighting. Do I deploy aggressively or conservatively? Do I stick together under a Chapter Master blob or do I split my forces to focus on flanks/weak points/board control? My friends all play semi-competitively and they consider me really difficult to deal with. And I am playing a different black and white variety that I know is stronger than the other kind, so it's possible some of my points are moot.

If you're upset that you can't play your army competitively, then there's nothing I can really say. Yes, in a competitive environment where spam is the king and only specific scenarios and lists can even be considered optimal, Marines struggle. But if you want to compete, there are options that unfortunately you have to completely demolish your current list for and buy loads of models that will be outdated in likely a few days. If you want the meta to fall into your lap and everything you own to be competitive then you need to start wishing upon a star. I don't think anyone owned 7 flying hive tyrants before a few months ago.

But the tl;dr takeaway is - Marines are better than the sum of their parts. Just because Tacs are weak doesn't mean the entire army is too. You can't say "My army is weaker than X army because X's Y is better than my Y" since I guarantee I can find a Z that's better for Marines than their Z. Focus on what you have rather than what you don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:


1. Vanguard have access to special weapons. Yes, you're paying for them, but it gives them the opportunity to be a far more specialized unit and fill a different role that zerks can't.

That's not actually true. The Khorne Berzerkers outperform special weapon-wielding Vanguard Veterans as well. Running the same assumption as in my previous post except the Vanguard Veterans run chainsword/power sword instead of double chainsword, they kill a tad over 25 MEQ. It's well ahead of the ~15.5 of the Khorne Berzerkers, but then it's also 610 points to the Khorne Berzerkers' 180. You could get another 20 Khorne Berzerkers and still have points left over. The better AP from special weapons don't outweigh the fact that the Berzerkers have 102857102974 attacks. Berzerkers outfight their points in Vanguard Veterans against anything regardless of the setup of the Vanguard Veterans barring extreme edge cases like TH Vanguard Veterans charging T8 targets (and paying 30 PPM for a Marine body with a Thunder Hammer is a good way to lose the game).

It gets even worse against GEQ since the Berzerkers can benefit from the S6 of their Chainaxes.

 SputnikDX wrote:


2. Vanguard have access to jump packs. This allows them to deep strike and move insanely fast, able to jump from one target to the next, charge directly over screens to tie up tanks, and fall back and shoot their widdle pistols. Fall back and shoot isn't that great admittedly, but I have done some damage after falling back from something to tough for them to chew. They can also jump straight over terrain, so they have a safer approach. Deep strike them behind a wall, then move them in and charge. I very rarely lose a single model before getting into melee with my Veterans, whereas simply fielding Zerks runs the risk of them just getting shot to death, even if they take a Rhino.

If you're willing to drop 2 attacks on the charge you can just infiltrate Berzerkers. There's a reason why Alpha Legion Berzerkers have made a splash on the tournament scene and Vanguard Veterans haven't. Even without running them as Alpha Legion you could just get a Kharybdis or the new drill thingamabob to Deep Strike the Berzerkers. True, it's more expensive, but the Berzerkers still win in damage output regardless.

 SputnikDX wrote:

3. Zerks second attack is at the very end of the fight phase. So it goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, get fought, lose models, then fight again. So your math isn't accounting for any models lost.

They don't fight at the very end of the Fight phase; that's the stratagem. Berzerkers have nothing saying they fight again at the end of the Fight phase.

So it actually goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, fight again and then lose nothing because whatever was in their way is deader than a sack of dead mice, which is dead.

This isn't me just griping over how other armies get cooler stuff than me; I play Khorne as well, I know how much better Berzerkers are.

Ah damn, I was mistaken. Then my first point is kind of moot if Zerks get the charge, and so is my third. Then the biggest focus will be on the second point. Playing specifically Vanguard Veterans against Zerkers (especially small units of zerks) you can use the Veterans mobility to stay outside of charge range. AFAIK zerks can't advance and charge, so they have a realistic threat range of 12" compared to Veterans threat range of 18". Unless you fall into a checkmate, Vanguard Vets will always make the charge against Zerks, and that's where those special weapons will clean house. It's an uphill battle, sure, but just one you gotta deal with.

As to infiltrating zerks, you can deploy against that specifically as Marines. Most armies would crumble to that stratagem, but if you have enough scouts you can deploy them 18" away from your front line, giving zerks nowhere to infiltrate except 9" from your scouts which are 18" away from everything else. They charge scouts, kill 55 points worth of guys, then proceed to footslog the entire rest of the way to your gunline getting shot or chopped up.

I know Zerks are real, and really cheap, and definitely better than Vanguard Vets, but you can still play around them. I just feel Vets have more utility - movement is wicked strong imo.

Zerks fill a very different role than vvets. They are a melee glass cannon with no mobility options, while vvets are a flexible melee or ranged or both unit with high mobility.

It's probably better to compare zerks to death company, who have more mobility but less attacks, or to blood claws, who are cheaper, less killy versions of zerks.

None of that means that vvets are in a good spot, but that's mostly because all Marines cost too much by about 2 or 3 points.

I don't have much to add to what Walrus has already said. I certainly don't think Sputnik's attempt at a counterargument is winning anyone over who actually has experience with these units.

Marines in the next few months will be a lower-tier army, as their final few competitors for mid-tier obscurity level up with new codexes. Ah well, there's always Grey Knights to look down at I suppose!

I actually think that Primaris might see their own sneaky codex within a year, with a release of new models alongside. SM Codex has literally not one stratagem that benefits their units specifically (compared to scouts, bikers, heavy bolters, missile launchers, etc), and the codex overall is weaksauce. Instead of it getting reworked, I think we'll see Primaris get a big buff, with the SM codex staying as is, which will drive players into investing more in them.

 SputnikDX wrote:


Ah damn, I was mistaken. Then my first point is kind of moot if Zerks get the charge, and so is my third. Then the biggest focus will be on the second point. Playing specifically Vanguard Veterans against Zerkers (especially small units of zerks) you can use the Veterans mobility to stay outside of charge range. AFAIK zerks can't advance and charge, so they have a realistic threat range of 12" compared to Veterans threat range of 18". Unless you fall into a checkmate, Vanguard Vets will always make the charge against Zerks, and that's where those special weapons will clean house. It's an uphill battle, sure, but just one you gotta deal with.

As to infiltrating zerks, you can deploy against that specifically as Marines. Most armies would crumble to that stratagem, but if you have enough scouts you can deploy them 18" away from your front line, giving zerks nowhere to infiltrate except 9" from your scouts which are 18" away from everything else. They charge scouts, kill 55 points worth of guys, then proceed to footslog the entire rest of the way to your gunline getting shot or chopped up.

I know Zerks are real, and really cheap, and definitely better than Vanguard Vets, but you can still play around them. I just feel Vets have more utility - movement is wicked strong imo.

Oh, my point isn't that I can't outplay Berzerkers or that it's impossible to play around them, my point is that my Chapter's raison d'être is meaningless because it's trying to do the same thing melee Chaos does except much, much worse.

Regarding the mobility, Zerkers can drop down in a Kharybdis, get Warptime'd by a Sorcerer and then have to manage a 3" charge with rerolls. Sure, that's like 400 points, but that's STILL less than that damage output would be in Vanguard Veterans, and the best Vanguard can manage is a 52% chance of DS success.

On paper Berzerkers don't have a lot of mobility; in practice there's plenty of ways around that. That's why they're so good. Even then they're "merely" solid rather than broken.

Yeah, Chaos has reallllly good mobility options. Warptime alone puts it ahead of most armies in that department.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh, my point isn't that I can't outplay Berzerkers or that it's impossible to play around them, my point is that my Chapter's raison d'être is meaningless because it's trying to do the same thing melee Chaos does except much, much worse.

Regarding the mobility, Zerkers can drop down in a Kharybdis, get Warptime'd by a Sorcerer and then have to manage a 3" charge with rerolls. Sure, that's like 400 points, but that's STILL less than that damage output would be in Vanguard Veterans, and the best Vanguard can manage is a 52% chance of DS success.

On paper Berzerkers don't have a lot of mobility; in practice there's plenty of ways around that. That's why they're so good. Even then they're "merely" solid rather than broken.

Yeah Templars are kinda funky. Chaos has better melee while not really sacrificing any shooting to compensate. I don't think your Chapter Tactics needs to completely define your entire army, hence why I run a lot of dedicated melee as Raven Guard even if it nullifies their tactic, but I think BT are in the bottom half of the Space Marine tiers, and Crusader Squads don't really make up for the lack of Psykers.

Heck even as an ultramarine player(who have the benifit of alot of charictors and Bobby G) the codex is very weak. If I don't build my list around Bobby G he is unfortunately just one massive points sink, that adds very little. Personally I hate the way GW have writen his rules hes supposed to be the strategic, logistics genius. How exactly does reroll's upon rerolls for units around him reflect that? Also writing him as the reroll king feels like it has led GW to balance unit based on them always being in his bubble, which is impossible and stupid. Right now if you want to build an even semi competative list of pure marines, I hope you like resin as you'll need a lot of Forgeworld.

If 4 lascannons aren't amazing just because of Invuln than neither are Russes or Neutron Lasers. Until you find a vehicle that can pierce invuln at 48", you can't discount Lascannons because of invul saves without discounting everything else as well. And Killshot is very workable: just deploy your Predators behind LoS/outside of range of enemy big guns, then on your turn move them into range and activate it. Even hitting on 4s you're likely to slag whatever could have shot you. And bringing up the Captain aura is more to bring up your thought about allies.

You can't count on being able to hide 3 Predators out of LOS. Arguing this is making way too many assumptions. That's a fail right there, I get that you tried but no. Also, Dunecrawlers don't take -1 for moving and shooting, and Leman Russes fire their cannon twice if they move under half distance, and the cannon doesn't suffer the -1 for moving either. Predators suck man, sorry to tell you. I realize that you're in denial but that's just reality man. You cannot count on kill shot. What you can count on is that Dunecrawlers will deal minimum 3 damage on their damage roll.

18" isn't very good on a unit that's supposed to be on top of objectives, since they can't really do anything against someone unless they get close to them, and they get shredded by heavy bolters. Even stray bolter fire from 24" will take out a couple of them. And if you're complaining about Rangers, then just take Intercessors. Now you have a better weapon than a Galvanic rifle on a better model.

LOL here you are again, not even realizing how good 18'' range actually is on an assault weapon. Again, you seriously have zero idea how the Mechanicus operates on the table top. You've never played the faction and have probably never played against it. Your ignorance here shows that. Vanguard aren't for sitting on objectives, they are for advancing forward and providing a screen. Rangers sit on objectives. Intercessors? Really? That's your answer? my god I'm actually laughing over here. My Vanguard advanced up the table, got into range of your intercessors, oh my look at those sixes to wound on the Rad carbines! Each failed save is one dead Primaris buddy! What a joke.

Ignore them? They're on an objective, getting points, and winning games. You can ignore them if you want, but they'll just be there holding on shooting at everyone unfortunate enough to footslog across the board.

Yep and their shooting is doing nothing, literally bouncing at range. Once your supposed predators are easily dealt with, the marines come next. Guess what Dakkabots do to marines in cover? It isn't pretty.

You missed my last point about Tacs holding heavy weapons in cover. Lascannons with 4 ablative wounds and 2+ armor are pretty good and pesky enough to deal with.

Maybe for an army that doesn't have any kind of high rate of fire weaponry. One Lascannon? Oh how my bionic legs quiver in fear of your single lascannon. Oh how terrifying. It's almost as if my entire army doesn't have any kind of invuln save, and there's no way for my support units to repair my vehicles! How could I ever deal with such firepower?

They can. If Admech gets turn one and uses that stratagem it's going to be a tricky game. If you're using old rules though, Admech will almost never get turn 1 since they can't minimize their drops with transports. If you're using ITC rules, you're going to have a tougher time, but you can play against that by having a forward screen of Scouts to keep Electropriests far, far away from your main force. And then Null Zone turns them into paper, even if they've leeched life.

1) Nobody uses the old rules, the first turn literally changed with Chapter Approved. 2) If you're running transports with your marine army to get less drops, be my guest! Please! More points you've spent that can be easily destroyed!
2) Oh no you've used scouts and null zone to counter my electro priests! Looks like I'll just have to use the rest of my army to sweep you because my army isn't overcosted. Too bad.

If you're a melee army, you stay away from electro-priests. Again, they have 6" move, 3 toughness, and demon saves. Walk away from them and shoot them.

See above. I shoot better.

According to Mathhammer, a 5 man TH/SS Veteran Squad with Chapter Master rerolls for Shrike or Helbrecht deals 12 wounds to Dragoons 63% of the time. At that point the dragoon player is risking losing a 68 point model to morale if you didn't just entirely wipe the squad to begin with. 195 points just did 272 points worth of damage. I've done it before and it was awesome.

Positioning, positioning, positioning. Either don't let them charge you, or if that fails, don't let them charge anything important.

I could use the same argument about positioning. Lets see those Veterans survive a trek across the board shall we? I've shot down plenty of jump pack marines since the beginning of 8th edition I don't have any problem with continuing to do it. As long as I'm keeping positioning and terrain in mind, you won't get a charge off. Because guess what, I don't have to come to you. You have to come to me. Because if you don't, you will get swept by robots of doom. My dragoons can literally sit there and wait for you as part of my screen.

Even if you get the first turn to shoot at the robots with kill shot, you better hope and pray that you at least kill two of them through the 4+ invulnerable save they have. Because if you don't, you're dead in the water. No amount of maneuvering will save those predators from the return fire.

What the army can do and is designed to do is to be semi-effective in all aspects. Marines, to me, I find to be greater than the sum of their parts. I can take the same list and play it differently every time depending on who I'm fighting. Do I deploy aggressively or conservatively? Do I stick together under a Chapter Master blob or do I split my forces to focus on flanks/weak points/board control? My friends all play semi-competitively and they consider me really difficult to deal with. And I am playing a different black and white variety that I know is stronger than the other kind, so it's possible some of my points are moot.

If you're upset that you can't play your army competitively, then there's nothing I can really say. Yes, in a competitive environment where spam is the king and only specific scenarios and lists can even be considered optimal, Marines struggle. But if you want to compete, there are options that unfortunately you have to completely demolish your current list for and buy loads of models that will be outdated in likely a few days. If you want the meta to fall into your lap and everything you own to be competitive then you need to start wishing upon a star. I don't think anyone owned 7 flying hive tyrants before a few months ago.

But the tl;dr takeaway is - Marines are better than the sum of their parts. Just because Tacs are weak doesn't mean the entire army is too. You can't say "My army is weaker than X army because X's Y is better than my Y" since I guarantee I can find a Z that's better for Marines than their Z. Focus on what you have rather than what you don't.

My whole point is that given GW's statements on how they will be curating the state of the game in consideration to match play, I should be able to optimize a Space Marine list and have a reasonable expectation of an even/winning game against an equally optimized list. You keep telling me, multiple times, that space marines are fine. But they are clearly not. I'm not talking about 7 hive tyrants, I'm talking about fighting a list that actually has teeth. If I have to actually explain to you what that is, then that tells me you haven't been playing this game for very long. With a space marine list, I currently do not have a reasonable expectation of an even game or victory unless my opponent massively misplays. Even then, there are certain armies like Imperial Guard and now Tyranids where they essentially play themselves.

Marines lose at the list building phase of the game because the codex is currently inferior. The units are overpriced. The stratagems are not powerful or reliable. I laugh at your assertion that you can find a "z" that is better for marines when compared to anything but an index army. Hell, Sisters of Battle are a superior army currently, and they are an index army.

Must be nice playing the tier 1 vanilla chapter, getting -1 to hit and all. Wouldn't it be nice if you got that on your vehicles as well?

I think its obvious at this point that neither of us are going to be willing to budge from how we feel. I'm not going to convince you any time soon, nor are you going to convince me. You can go ahead and respond but I won't be continuing the conversation. It's not going to go anywhere.

I get the whole 'stop whining and figure out how to make the most of what marines have to offer' sort of mindset that people have, and I 100% think that is exactly what most of us who still play marines are doing. I also think that GW is doing the best they have ever done thus far when it comes to 8th edition, overall balance, community support, reactive FAQs, updates, etc. It is definitely easy to look past all this and only come across as being upset at the issues there still are.

However, I think it is clear that there are still a number of balance issues with the SM codex and others, and blindly ignoring them is not really what i see as the constructive answer here, especially when it now seems like GW actually wants to know about and fix these issues. If anything, talking about them from a constructive mindset and making GW aware of these issues seems like the best course of action. We all love this game and want it to be better.

All that being said, I find it strange when people say things like:

"AdMech has the best vehicles. I think this is just something we're going to have to live with within the fluff." or "just because Tacs are weak doesn't mean the entire army is too."

It isn't an issue of a single Russ or Dunecrawler being better than a single predator. I think we would be fine with one tank being better than another tank, but they would both need to be worth what we are paying for them. The issue is that in general, when they compare them to the wider meta of the game, people aren't finding the predator to be worth it's points for a variety of reasons (I believe the main issue people have is their durability). If you don't think this is the case, then that's fine and i think most people would be interested in your option, but I don't think "it's okay if a unit is bad" is ever a good opinion to have.

If tacs are weak from a balance perspective, but the army is able to still be good despite them (most likely because people are just using other units), there is still the issue of tacs being weak. It's fine to say that you think people should still play the army and do what they can to win (which i agree with 100%), but we can still focus on the issue of tacs being weak. In a perfect world, every unit would be perfectly balanced, and worth using in some form in some type of list, and i think it's okay to push towards that as much as possible. Tactical squads are a core part of this game, people like them, and have spent time, energy, and money on them. Thus them being weak is a problem worth having a conversation about. And this goes for any other unit that is currently not seeing much play due to some kind of balance issue.

The more units that are worth playing, the more models people buy, and the better the game is. So i don't think there is ever a reason not to try and move these kinds of conversations forward.

Personally, when I look at the changes to things like 1) The wound chart (which typically makes it better to be T3 than T4 with how much being T4 costs), 2) The way saves are now modified by AP (which effects models with good saves more than it does ones with bad saves), 3) The removal of +1 attack on the change (which means marines do consistently less damage), and 4) The removal of being able to auto fall back in the morale phase, marines have taken a number of hits to their effectiveness. We can debate how right i am on these points, but if i am right about any them, then the answer seems to be either a points reduction or a increase in effectiveness for marines, or more likely both of these things, in order to have each unit feel like they are worth taking in some form in some style of list. And this same mindset should be used for all codexes, for the betterment of the game.

Personally the biggest letdown in the codex is its morbidly poor stratagems. Marines should be the kings of strats, they should reflect the centuries of drills, experience, tactical acumen and the physical superiority of humanity's greatest bully boys. Instead they are limp beyond compare, easily the worst of any codex. I mean, GKs got the actual worst codex in 8th, but their stratagems are still much better than Marines'. Screw them up, throw them away, and start again, would be my ideal.

 ultimentra wrote:
blah blah blah

Alright, I'm just gonna stop here. 1st off I've played against Admech more than any army, so my experience with them is precisely why I know I can beat them. 2nd, I'm just not going to bother with you if you're just going to act like a prick. If you can't win while I can win, then there's got to be something different between us and I have a feeling it's attitude.

jcd386 wrote:
"AdMech has the best vehicles. I think this is just something we're going to have to live with within the fluff." or "just because Tacs are weak doesn't mean the entire army is too."

It isn't an issue of a single Russ or Dunecrawler being better than a single predator. I think we would be fine with one tank being better than another tank, but they would both need to be worth what we are paying for them. The issue is that in general, when they compare them to the wider meta of the game, people aren't finding the predator to be worth it's points for a variety of reasons (I believe the main issue people have is their durability). If you don't think this is the case, then that's fine and i think most people would be interested in your option, but I don't think "it's okay if a unit is bad" is ever a good opinion to have.

At its base cost (90), Dunecrawlers are a better option than Predators - period. They can move and shoot without penalty, and have a 5++, with the only thing missing being 2" from your move which you won't miss. However, I don't find them to be as destructive as Lascannon Predators after playing multiple games with them. 1d3 means you usually need 2 dunecrawlers to slag a tank in a single turn compared to the 4 guaranteed shots. They're tougher, ironically more mobile, but the firepower of a Predator Annihilator is unmatched at 48" barring Forgeworld and maybe some Eldar and Tau stuff I don't know about.

jcd386 wrote:
If tacs are weak from a balance perspective, but the army is able to still be good despite them (most likely because people are just using other units), there is still the issue of tacs being weak. It's fine to say that you think people should still play the army and do what they can to win (which i agree with 100%), but we can still focus on the issue of tacs being weak. In a perfect world, every unit would be perfectly balanced, and worth using in some form in some type of list, and i think it's okay to push towards that as much as possible. Tactical squads are a core part of this game, people like them, and have spent time, energy, and money on them. Thus them being weak is a problem worth having a conversation about. And this goes for any other unit that is currently not seeing much play due to some kind of balance issue.

The more units that are worth playing, the more models people buy, and the better the game is. So i don't think there is ever a reason not to try and move these kinds of conversations forward.

Oh, buddy, I want Tacs to be buffed, believe me. I have an EXCESSIVE amount of Space Marine models that I'm thinking of just taking out of my carrying case just because I don't use Tac models for anything besides Devastators anymore. But the focus of "my army sucks waaah" usually revolves around Tacs being bad, but I don't think the army really is. Just... don't take Tacs right now. They likely will see a buff but if they don't, I guess I'm just going to put more effort into making my scouts look pretty.

jcd386 wrote:
Personally, when I look at the changes to things like 1) The wound chart (which typically makes it better to be T3 than T4 with how much being T4 costs), 2) The way saves are now modified by AP (which effects models with good saves more than it does ones with bad saves), 3) The removal of +1 attack on the change (which means marines do consistently less damage), and 4) The removal of being able to auto fall back in the morale phase, marines have taken a number of hits to their effectiveness. We can debate how right i am on these points, but if i am right about any them, then the answer seems to be either a points reduction or a increase in effectiveness for marines, or more likely both of these things, in order to have each unit feel like they are worth taking in some form in some style of list. And this same mindset should be used for all codexes, for the betterment of the game.

I think T4 is okaaaay, but it really doesn't seem to help until you get shot by S6 and S7 weapons. I'm glad Assault Cannons don't tear my marines to ribbons.
But you make a few good points. It seems like lots of global rule changes were made that totally changed the way Marines played without really giving them much to compensate, unless you're an Ultramarine. I will totally take going first over +1 Attack though, seeing how I run thunder hammer veterans. Initiative was a very painful mechanic.

I do believe that Space Marines need a buff, but the attitude I get from certain people in this thread is that Space Marines are just unplayable right now, and I just don't see that being the case. I'm winning and I'm having fun and I still haven't turned my list into a competitive mess yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
Personally the biggest letdown in the codex is its morbidly poor stratagems. Marines should be the kings of strats, they should reflect the centuries of drills, experience, tactical acumen and the physical superiority of humanity's greatest bully boys. Instead they are limp beyond compare, easily the worst of any codex. I mean, GKs got the actual worst codex in 8th, but their stratagems are still much better than Marines'. Screw them up, throw them away, and start again, would be my ideal.

Yeah. I counted it out and I think like 18 stratagems are either unit or weapon specific, and usually those units or options aren't even worth taking. I think I could count the stratagems I use every game on 1 hand.

Yeah that all makes sense. I think maybe everyone was coming across as too defeatist, so it seemed to me like you were moving too far in the other direction.

The toughness thing is interesting if you do the math. Going from T3 to T4 increases damage as follows:

S3: T4 takes 33% less damage than T3 (six hits goes from being 3 wounds to 2)
S4: T4 takes 25% less damage (from 4 to 3)
S5: doesn't change
S6/7: T4 takes 20% less damage (5 to 4)
S8+: doesn't change

To me this typically isn't worth the price we pay for it.

Saves are similarly strange, where the better your safe, the more AP values increases your damage. AP 1 increases damage to 2+ by 100%, 3+ by 50%, 4+ 33%, 5+ 25%, and 6+ by 20%.

To me these things make it clear that the marine profile is currently overcosted.

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah that all makes sense. I think maybe everyone was coming across as too defeatist, so it seemed to me like you were moving too far in the other direction.

The toughness thing is interesting if you do the math. Going from T3 to T4 increases damage as follows:

S3: T4 takes 33% less damage than T3 (six hits goes from being 3 wounds to 2)
S4: T4 takes 25% less damage (from 4 to 3)
S5: doesn't change
S6/7: T4 takes 20% less damage (5 to 4)
S8+: doesn't change

To me this typically isn't worth the price we pay for it.

Saves are similarly strange, where the better your safe, the more AP values increases your damage. AP 1 increases damage to 2+ by 100%, 3+ by 50%, 4+ 33%, 5+ 25%, and 6+ by 20%.

To me these things make it clear that the marine profile is currently overcosted.

All of this is completely 100% true. This is where GW has never done the "basic math" and run simulations like a video game company would. What you are basically saying is the equivalent of a DPS (damage per second) metric in tabletop. DPS is not the end-all-be all by any means as range, counters, build orders, micro, all have impact of course. However, it's a starting point for did you get the math in the right place.

In essence, it kind of shows the typical schizophrenic brain of GW. One one side they want to streamline the toughness chart and implement armor save modifications. However, you have to execute and re-design the units correctly with that in mind. Unfortunately, I think we all grasp that both the BOLTER and T4/3+ isn't worth much in this edition. It's a race to the bottom with horde-level troops. Maybe it's just human bias where since Marine is the first codex, too much of the old 3rd-7th mindset was there and the writers/rules people didn't factor that into the codex. In essence, they are thinking about marines like the old ways while having a new ruleset. This is compounded I suspect without doing the DPS style simulation testing above.

Yeah GW definitely doesn’t do the sums to work out the efficiency of weapons against targets. The result is that marines with bolt guns are significantly weaker than they should be for their cost.

One odd thing is that cover means way more to marines, with their 3+ saves, than models with less armour on. You take half as much damage from ap0, and even have an ok chance to save against lascannons, battlecannons and the like. The availability of cover makes a huge difference to marines.

To me, the main problem is about damage output. Bolt guns at 13ppm do negligible damage. It sucks to compare tactical marines to units that cost the same or less, but whose guns are far more powerful and who are also harder to shoot dead. This is why you get marine armies with no marines, and chaos marine armies with no chaos marines.

My solution has been to put my tactical marines in boxes and make a new (mostly) Primaris army. Primaris marines function like marines always should have. They are tougher and meaner than other people’s troops. They can beat things up in combat and even their guns are somewhat effective. If I put a unit of intercessors in cover on an objective they’ll almost always still be there at the end of the game, and will have killed a few things. At a tournament this weekend I had my hellblasters and intercessors charge stuff like plaguebearers and ork boyz mobs, because they actually throw out a lot of attacks and cause things to die. Doing that with tactical marines or devastators would stand no chance of success.

None of that is any help for people with normal-sized marines. I’m not sure what to say about that to be honest. It seems to me that GW doesn’t really care to support rules for old models.

Because i love tinkering around in Excel:

If you compare the average damage output against the main 6 toughness values (T3 to T8), of a 4 point guardsmen with a lasgun to a marine with a bolter, and ignore their differences in durability, a marine would only be worth about 7.5 points.

If you compare the average durability per point per shot from a verity of anti infantry guns (I used lasguns, bolters, heavy bolters, assault cannons, plasma, and OC plasma, this is probably imperfect but seems at least indicative of what we're looking at here), Marines are worth about 10.3 points.

So the corrected value to make Marines as good as guard would be somewhere in the middle, around 9 points. This is assuming that the offensive ability and defensive ability of a unit averaged together equals their overall value, which might not be correct, but seems reasonable to me.

Conversely, if you adjust the guard values to match values of the 13 point Marine, they are worth about 7 points offensively and 5.1 defensively, which averages to about 6 points.

You could also adjust them both to get them closer. 5 point guard and 11 point Marines would also be very similar in a points to effectiveness comparison.

So at the end of the day, despite my napkin math being likely imperfect, it seems to me like Marines are either 23% overcosted, or guardsmen are 50% undercosted.

jcd386 wrote:
Because i love tinkering around in Excel:

If you compare the average damage output against the main 6 toughness values (T3 to T8), of a 4 point guardsmen with a lasgun to a marine with a bolter, and ignore their differences in durability, a marine would only be worth about 7.5 points.

If you compare the average durability per point per shot from a verity of anti infantry guns (I used lasguns, bolters, heavy bolters, assault cannons, plasma, and OC plasma, this is probably imperfect but seems at least indicative of what we're looking at here), Marines are worth about 10.3 points.

So the corrected value to make Marines as good as guard would be somewhere in the middle, around 9 points. This is assuming that the offensive ability and defensive ability of a unit averaged together equals their overall value, which might not be correct, but seems reasonable to me.

Conversely, if you adjust the guard values to match values of the 13 point Marine, they are worth about 7 points offensively and 5.1 defensively, which averages to about 6 points.

You could also adjust them both to get them closer. 5 point guard and 11 point Marines would also be very similar in a points to effectiveness comparison.

So at the end of the day, despite my napkin math being likely imperfect, it seems to me like Marines are either 23% overcosted, or guardsmen are 50% undercosted.

I suppose that 23% premium is meant to encompass ATSKNF and Combat Squading? Seems expensive either way.

Yeah it's possible, but it's not like guard units don't also have special rules like orders and whatnot so I didn't put much weight into things like that.

I laugh at the notion of Combat Sqauds meaning anything. They could literally lose the rule with no point decrease and nobody would be sad.

When is the last time anyone actually used combat squads? Anyone? I have played Marines since 5th and i honestly don't think I've ever used it.

Insectum uses it to crush more weapons into drop pods.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I laugh at the notion of Combat Sqauds meaning anything. They could literally lose the rule with no point decrease and nobody would be sad.

Has anyone ever used it? It turns one squad into 2 deployments means you don't get a second sargernt and you have less units to fill out detachments? It's totally useless in 8th edition. Heck if a primaris marine is only worth 18 points with 6 inchs of extra range -1ap and a second attack and a second wound, why are standard marine still paying the full codex 13 points per model. Atleast at 12 ppm they wouldn't be auto loosing you the game.

jcd386 wrote:
Because i love tinkering around in Excel:

If you compare the average damage output against the main 6 toughness values (T3 to T8), of a 4 point guardsmen with a lasgun to a marine with a bolter, and ignore their differences in durability, a marine would only be worth about 7.5 points.

If you compare the average durability per point per shot from a verity of anti infantry guns (I used lasguns, bolters, heavy bolters, assault cannons, plasma, and OC plasma, this is probably imperfect but seems at least indicative of what we're looking at here), Marines are worth about 10.3 points.

So the corrected value to make Marines as good as guard would be somewhere in the middle, around 9 points. This is assuming that the offensive ability and defensive ability of a unit averaged together equals their overall value, which might not be correct, but seems reasonable to me.

Conversely, if you adjust the guard values to match values of the 13 point Marine, they are worth about 7 points offensively and 5.1 defensively, which averages to about 6 points.

You could also adjust them both to get them closer. 5 point guard and 11 point Marines would also be very similar in a points to effectiveness comparison.

So at the end of the day, despite my napkin math being likely imperfect, it seems to me like Marines are either 23% overcosted, or guardsmen are 50% undercosted.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after a bit of spreadsheetery

points lost per hit
points per wound

One thing to note is just how tanky intercessors are to S3/S4 shooting, even compared to blob guard.

Id have to run the numbers, but I would guess that 18 points is about right for intercessors. They went down from 20 in chapter approved, so it makes sense. I still think they fill an odd role for Marines, and are still very flimsy vs D2, but I think that's more an issue with D2 weapons than it is with intercessors.

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I laugh at the notion of Combat Sqauds meaning anything. They could literally lose the rule with no point decrease and nobody would be sad.

Has anyone ever used it? It turns one squad into 2 deployments means you don't get a second sargernt and you have less units to fill out detachments? It's totally useless in 8th edition. Heck if a primaris marine is only worth 18 points with 6 inchs of extra range -1ap and a second attack and a second wound, why are standard marine still paying the full codex 13 points per model. Atleast at 12 ppm they wouldn't be auto loosing you the game.

I managed ONE use in 6th with Carcharodons Chapter Tactics at the time and that was it. Otherwise there was honestly no point to the rule.


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jcd386 wrote:
Id have to run the numbers, but I would guess that 18 points is about right for intercessors. They went down from 20 in chapter approved, so it makes sense. I still think they fill an odd role for Marines, and are still very flimsy vs D2, but I think that's more an issue with D2 weapons than it is with intercessors.

That's more an issue with Plasma, though it doesn't fix how bad Melta and Flamers and Grav Guns are.

Rather than just making Marines cheaper they need to give Bolt weapons something and differentiate the choices a lot more.

So people don't think Wisdom of the Ancients and Sons of Guilliman are good strategems?

 Primark G wrote:
So people don't think Wisdom of the Ancients and Sons of Guilliman are good strategems?

No.

Your Captains are already ran in enough numbers that both Strategems are redundant and honestly fill no purpose.

I don't think those strategems are useless or anything, but they're pretty situational. As Slayer mentions, you're pretty likely to have a captain's aura in range, plus the buff only lasts one round, not even the whole turn. Maybe if it provided a Chapter Master aura instead, or at least lasted in both the shooting and fight phases.

The sternguard strategem is pretty cool, except that it only works on their special issue bolters. If it applied to the unit regardless of their loadout, it would be great imo. Auspex Scan is clutch in the right circumstances, but 2 CP is pricey for an army that's not going to be hitting more than 8-9 CP total without soup. Linebreaker and Killshot both strike me as good, except that they require 3 tanks to function; if you go second, you won't get them off. Linebreaker is also really only going to be effective against certain builds too, and Vindicators are underwhelming to begin with.

Wisdom of the ancients is bad because dreads (outside of dakka leviathans) are bad. It is also very situational because usually those dreads are part of a gunline and properly bubble wrapping with our crap bubble wrapping options rewards small castles which should all be in a captian+lt bubble at least.

I've tried to run separate castles and it gets really hard to keep them screened. If they are not screened they get tar-pitted (unless they are ultras but then you have -1 for falling back and a -1 for moving so hitting on a 5+ and it only gets worse from there or going from 66% to 33% or worse).

I've played with the idea of 3x ven dreads supported by a LT and this strat but if I'm running that competitive then soup does it so much better. I don't like close combat + shooting dreds (or any dual use unit) because for half the game you are giving up whatever points you are paying for close combat or shooting. Dreads don't really have the volume of attacks to prevent them from getting tar pitted (4 attacks, 3 will hit, 2 will end up wounding doesn't get you out of combat fast enough or inflict enough damage)

Sons of Gman is only available to a small subsection of vanilla marines and if you are running ultras you are doing yourself a disservice by being outside of Gman's re-roll wounds bubble so it is again highly situational (maybe deepstriking inceptors but that is very situational)

Both pale in comparison to any of the good strats out there making them mediocre at best (which for the marine codex means they are the best we have).

They don't hold a candle to any of the deepstriking, fight twice, shoot twice, -1 to hit, +1 to save, no overwatch, re-deploy, advance and then shoot, advance and then charge, double advance, counter charge, move out of sequence, +1 damage, no strats for you, +d3 cp, whatever the nid no psychics for you on is, -1 ap, +1 invlun, jump-shoot-jump, whatever broken necron crap is out there or any of the "good" stratagems that other armies have plenty of.

Not all dreads are bad. Deredeos, contemptors and venerable dreads all have their uses.

Sons of Guilliman is really good on plasma inceptors.

SftS is of course amazing.

There are some weak stratagems too. I wish bolter drill did more, but it really doesn't. It's only meaningful effect is to make firing my aggressors take even longer to resolve.

jcd386 wrote:
Id have to run the numbers, but I would guess that 18 points is about right for intercessors. They went down from 20 in chapter approved, so it makes sense. I still think they fill an odd role for Marines, and are still very flimsy vs D2, but I think that's more an issue with D2 weapons than it is with intercessors.

They are 15 pts tops in the 8th ed environment. Plasma scions alone knock them down from 18.


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 Primark G wrote:
So people don't think Wisdom of the Ancients and Sons of Guilliman are good strategems?

I don't think so. Compare to what Chaos and Eldar throw around and get back to me.

Mandragola wrote:
Not all dreads are bad. Deredeos, contemptors and venerable dreads all have their uses.

Sons of Guilliman is really good on plasma inceptors.

SftS is of course amazing.

There are some weak stratagems too. I wish bolter drill did more, but it really doesn't. It's only meaningful effect is to make firing my aggressors take even longer to resolve.

You could also just bring a Jump Pack Captain instead if you wanted mobile plasma, as otherwise Hellblasters and Devastators exist. That's part of the issue here. It's a super redundant effect. Imagine if Cadian Guard had a strategem just to reroll 1's to hit. It doesn't make sense because they're basically already getting the benefit. Then there's the matter that Tactical Marines and Intercessors put out so little damage why would you want to bother using such a strategem on them.

The only good Strategems are Auspex, Cluster Mines, Hellfire Shells, Flakk Missiles, and Tremor Shells for the generic stuff. Killshot and Masterful Marksmanship are too limited in nature, and surprisingly the Relic one is limited too, because the whole army, compared to any other codex so far, is more reliant on Special Characters overall. Strike From The Shadows and Abhor The Witch are the only good Chapter specific ones in the codex.

I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.